Ceasefire now
November 28, 2023 8:08 AM Subscribe
NYT: Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace - Even a conservative assessment of the reported Gaza casualty figures shows that the rate of death during Israel’s assault has few precedents in this century, experts say.[ungated]
Interviews: Gideon Levy on Sidebar (Al-Jazeera) - Israeli Public Opinion and the war on Gaza.
Historian Rashid Khalidi on Israel’s Long Reign of Violence
(The Intercept podcast)
'Anxiety, nightmares and self-harm': How Israel is pushing children’s mental health beyond breaking point in Gaza
This is FPP #3. FPP #2: "Gaza is Being Strangled". FPP #1: Hamas Strikes Israel in Unexpected Assault
Interviews: Gideon Levy on Sidebar (Al-Jazeera) - Israeli Public Opinion and the war on Gaza.
Historian Rashid Khalidi on Israel’s Long Reign of Violence
(The Intercept podcast)
'Anxiety, nightmares and self-harm': How Israel is pushing children’s mental health beyond breaking point in Gaza
This is FPP #3. FPP #2: "Gaza is Being Strangled". FPP #1: Hamas Strikes Israel in Unexpected Assault
IDF messaging suggests Gaza truce unlikely to last much beyond Tuesday. The piece cites similar official stats as the NYT (but numbers aren't stable for the moment), and Emerson T. Brooking comments:
By the IDF’s most optimistic estimate, 86% of the 14,000 killed by Israeli bombs since Oct 6 are non-combatants.
This is a stunning figure. Even in the brutal 2014 war, civilian deaths were ~60% of total.
[...] Further important context from @shashj. His reporting/FT have put total Hamas killed at 5k, according to Israeli officials—4k after Oct 7. Twice the Guardian figure.
If that is true, then air campaign and invasion would be running at ~70% civilian deaths in “optimistic” figure.
In the meantime, Israeli strikes have been reported in both Syria and Lebanon and continues.
In the other meantime: Israel's finance minister defends settlement funds in budget row:
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich hit back at critics of the government's proposed war time budget on Monday, ahead of a vote that has already created a rift between centrist and far right members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet.
On Sunday, centrist Minister Benny Gantz demanded that Netanyahu remove all political payouts from the new budget, saying they will harm the war effort. Those include so-called "coalition funds" intended for settlements in the occupied West Bank and for the ultra-Orthodox Jewish education system.
London surgeon says he saw 'massacre unfold' while working in Gaza hospitals - Prof Ghassan Abu-Sittah in his press conference said that he witnessed the use of white phosphorus munitions.
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 AM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
By the IDF’s most optimistic estimate, 86% of the 14,000 killed by Israeli bombs since Oct 6 are non-combatants.
This is a stunning figure. Even in the brutal 2014 war, civilian deaths were ~60% of total.
[...] Further important context from @shashj. His reporting/FT have put total Hamas killed at 5k, according to Israeli officials—4k after Oct 7. Twice the Guardian figure.
If that is true, then air campaign and invasion would be running at ~70% civilian deaths in “optimistic” figure.
In the meantime, Israeli strikes have been reported in both Syria and Lebanon and continues.
In the other meantime: Israel's finance minister defends settlement funds in budget row:
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich hit back at critics of the government's proposed war time budget on Monday, ahead of a vote that has already created a rift between centrist and far right members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet.
On Sunday, centrist Minister Benny Gantz demanded that Netanyahu remove all political payouts from the new budget, saying they will harm the war effort. Those include so-called "coalition funds" intended for settlements in the occupied West Bank and for the ultra-Orthodox Jewish education system.
London surgeon says he saw 'massacre unfold' while working in Gaza hospitals - Prof Ghassan Abu-Sittah in his press conference said that he witnessed the use of white phosphorus munitions.
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 AM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile, assaults (both official and by Settlers) and land theft in the West Bank continue.
posted by eviemath at 8:43 AM on November 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:43 AM on November 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
US Senators met with IDF leaders but details are pretty scant on what, if anything, substantial was discussed, agreed on, or if the meeting was basically just some chat without any real significance.
It illustrates the shift over the past nearly two months in how Americn politicians are talking about the war though. America's government is still shoveling infinite weapons at Israel, but while there have been no actual limits or conditions put in place the talk from various elected officials is starting to retreat from the earlier absolute support of Israel's actions.
But the weapons are still flowing to Israel, so I'm not sure how the part where American support for the IDF's unrestricted bombing campaign is waning will have much impact on Netanyahu's plans and objectives.
posted by sotonohito at 8:55 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
It illustrates the shift over the past nearly two months in how Americn politicians are talking about the war though. America's government is still shoveling infinite weapons at Israel, but while there have been no actual limits or conditions put in place the talk from various elected officials is starting to retreat from the earlier absolute support of Israel's actions.
But the weapons are still flowing to Israel, so I'm not sure how the part where American support for the IDF's unrestricted bombing campaign is waning will have much impact on Netanyahu's plans and objectives.
posted by sotonohito at 8:55 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Outside Palestine update: BBC apologises for translation error, and cites a mistake in editing:
Original text: “We were suffering from the cold without the electricity and no one helped us. Only Hamas cared. Those who felt our suffering, I thank them very much and we love them very much.” [verified by other Arab speakers that this didn't match] versus the new text that accompanies the updated and longer clip: “Some [of] us were tortured and weren’t dealt with as POWs and nobody could help anyone else.
“They locked us in and in dark rooms. We suffered from cold in winter.
“They sprayed pepper at us and left us suffering in the wards.
“Nobody felt our sufferings. Only Hamas felt our sufferings. We thank them a lot and love each other a lot.”
Back in Gaza:
Why Israel imprisons so many Palestinians (Vox)
Gaza's main public library has been destroyed
The majority of the animals of the Gaza Zoo have died from airstrikes and starvation & dehydration (content warning for images of dead animals. I guess.)
A followup reporting in the Rolling Stone on the Hollywood side of things. Shared with me on the assertion that RS isn't owned by the same conglomerate that owned most of the other trade publications (the same ones who tended to pick pro-studio coverage during the SAG/WGA strikes)
Hamas is not as popular in Gaza as it seems. But Israel’s tactics will ensure their survival (Forward)
Mohammed El-Kurd: The Right to Speak for Ourselves
Elon Musk, whose superb handling of Twitter is such that, for once I am a beneficiary because no one's at the controls of my For You tab, so the algorithm is feeding me perfectly in terms of who I'm not seeing, is in Israel btw, meeting with Bibi. Other people can take over sharing hot takes about that guy, I need to go to sleep.
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on November 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Original text: “We were suffering from the cold without the electricity and no one helped us. Only Hamas cared. Those who felt our suffering, I thank them very much and we love them very much.” [verified by other Arab speakers that this didn't match] versus the new text that accompanies the updated and longer clip: “Some [of] us were tortured and weren’t dealt with as POWs and nobody could help anyone else.
“They locked us in and in dark rooms. We suffered from cold in winter.
“They sprayed pepper at us and left us suffering in the wards.
“Nobody felt our sufferings. Only Hamas felt our sufferings. We thank them a lot and love each other a lot.”
Back in Gaza:
Why Israel imprisons so many Palestinians (Vox)
Gaza's main public library has been destroyed
The majority of the animals of the Gaza Zoo have died from airstrikes and starvation & dehydration (content warning for images of dead animals. I guess.)
A followup reporting in the Rolling Stone on the Hollywood side of things. Shared with me on the assertion that RS isn't owned by the same conglomerate that owned most of the other trade publications (the same ones who tended to pick pro-studio coverage during the SAG/WGA strikes)
Hamas is not as popular in Gaza as it seems. But Israel’s tactics will ensure their survival (Forward)
Mohammed El-Kurd: The Right to Speak for Ourselves
Elon Musk, whose superb handling of Twitter is such that, for once I am a beneficiary because no one's at the controls of my For You tab, so the algorithm is feeding me perfectly in terms of who I'm not seeing, is in Israel btw, meeting with Bibi. Other people can take over sharing hot takes about that guy, I need to go to sleep.
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on November 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you want to take part of an action to call for ceasefire, such as phonebanks to get folks to call their reps to sign onto the ceasefire bill, you can always check for new actions here.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:04 AM on November 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:04 AM on November 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
i'm beginning to think that if this extreme bloodletting continues that much of the world will regard israel as a pariah state - i'm also beginning to think that the world may just have to impose a solution on that region, if it can agree on one
at the least, we could stop sending all participants arms to continue the fighting with
posted by pyramid termite at 10:25 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
at the least, we could stop sending all participants arms to continue the fighting with
posted by pyramid termite at 10:25 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Two things are true: Under Netanyahu's far-right regime and with material backing from the United States, Israeli soldiers are brutally murdering innocent Palestinian civilians, including children AND much of the anti-Israel sentiment being shared among well-meaning American leftists is indistinguishable from antisemitic propaganda. Antisemites the world over are very happy about both of these facts.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:35 AM on November 28, 2023 [48 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:35 AM on November 28, 2023 [48 favorites]
I realize this is simplistic, but I believe that Yigal Amir may have single-handledly killed Israel.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:46 AM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:46 AM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
> Two things are true: Under Netanyahu's far-right regime and with material backing from the United States, Israeli soldiers are brutally murdering innocent Palestinian civilians, including children AND much of the anti-Israel sentiment being shared among well-meaning American leftists is indistinguishable from antisemitic propaganda. Antisemites the world over are very happy about both of these facts.
Antipalestinians are delighted too.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:54 AM on November 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Antipalestinians are delighted too.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:54 AM on November 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
“They sprayed pepper at us and left us suffering in the wards".
Compare and contrast with Maya Regev on her release: “Bye, Shukran!” – waves and smiles.
posted by Lanark at 11:02 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Compare and contrast with Maya Regev on her release: “Bye, Shukran!” – waves and smiles.
posted by Lanark at 11:02 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
”much of the anti-Israel sentiment being shared among well-meaning American leftists is indistinguishable from antisemitic propaganda.“
Citation needed here for sure
posted by youthenrage at 11:39 AM on November 28, 2023 [52 favorites]
Citation needed here for sure
posted by youthenrage at 11:39 AM on November 28, 2023 [52 favorites]
"The Advocates" (1978 on WGBH Boston), which in this episode debates the question, "Should the United States Support 'Self-Determination' for Palestinians in a Middle East Peace Settlement?"
Here you can watch as a young 28 year old Netanyahu claims he doesn't believe the Palesitinians have a right to a separate State (within Israel's currently defined borders), moreover, in his view, a/the Palestinian state already exists, and it is called Jordan.
His actions since then continue to speak louder than his words. He has always said that "no one wants peace more than Israel," but it is apparent that the only peace he's ever been capable of working towards is one in which all Palestinians are exterminated/expelled/etc. from within Israel's borders. He seems to believe that all Palestinians should go to one of the other 22 Arab States to live. There will never be a two state solution, or any solution other than forced migration and death for Palestinians while Netanyahu (and any other hard line Zionist) is in power.
posted by nikoniko at 11:40 AM on November 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Here you can watch as a young 28 year old Netanyahu claims he doesn't believe the Palesitinians have a right to a separate State (within Israel's currently defined borders), moreover, in his view, a/the Palestinian state already exists, and it is called Jordan.
His actions since then continue to speak louder than his words. He has always said that "no one wants peace more than Israel," but it is apparent that the only peace he's ever been capable of working towards is one in which all Palestinians are exterminated/expelled/etc. from within Israel's borders. He seems to believe that all Palestinians should go to one of the other 22 Arab States to live. There will never be a two state solution, or any solution other than forced migration and death for Palestinians while Netanyahu (and any other hard line Zionist) is in power.
posted by nikoniko at 11:40 AM on November 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
i'm also beginning to think that the world may just have to impose a solution on that region, if it can agree on one
About 41% of world's Jews live in Israel. Please take care before you suggest "imposing a solution" on nearly half the Jews on the planet. We get weirdly sensitive about that kind of language, for some reason.
posted by The Bellman at 11:46 AM on November 28, 2023 [43 favorites]
About 41% of world's Jews live in Israel. Please take care before you suggest "imposing a solution" on nearly half the Jews on the planet. We get weirdly sensitive about that kind of language, for some reason.
posted by The Bellman at 11:46 AM on November 28, 2023 [43 favorites]
anti-Israel sentiment [...] is indistinguishable from antisemitic propaganda
Anti-Israel and antisemitic do not mean the same thing. You can easily tell because pro-Israel propaganda loves to conflate the two.
posted by axiom at 11:47 AM on November 28, 2023 [64 favorites]
Anti-Israel and antisemitic do not mean the same thing. You can easily tell because pro-Israel propaganda loves to conflate the two.
posted by axiom at 11:47 AM on November 28, 2023 [64 favorites]
Anti-Israel and antisemitic do not mean the same thing.
Yeah, hence Faint of Butt's qualification (which you've strategically left out) of "much of the." I say this as someone who, before recent events, identified as an anti-Zionist but have since changed to identifying as a non-Zionist because of how hateful much of the anti-Zionist rhetoric has become.
This is, of course, not the main concern right now (that's obviously the incomprehensible level of violence in recent weeks) - and yet it's hard to imagine a lasting peace for everyone if people are unable to get better at talking across even minor differences in viewpoints on this issue.
posted by coffeecat at 11:57 AM on November 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Yeah, hence Faint of Butt's qualification (which you've strategically left out) of "much of the." I say this as someone who, before recent events, identified as an anti-Zionist but have since changed to identifying as a non-Zionist because of how hateful much of the anti-Zionist rhetoric has become.
This is, of course, not the main concern right now (that's obviously the incomprehensible level of violence in recent weeks) - and yet it's hard to imagine a lasting peace for everyone if people are unable to get better at talking across even minor differences in viewpoints on this issue.
posted by coffeecat at 11:57 AM on November 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed. Please avoid re-centering a conversation around the US.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:58 AM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:58 AM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I realize this is simplistic, but I believe that Yigal Amir may have single-handledly killed Israel.
Given that his pals are all in government now, and the days of Israel being a democracy seem to be on the wane, that seems reasonable.
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on November 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Given that his pals are all in government now, and the days of Israel being a democracy seem to be on the wane, that seems reasonable.
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on November 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yikes. This is going to some pretty ugly places. I've been hanging around leftist spaces for sometime, and I'm a dedicated socialist, but some of the language used to describe Jews (even when veiled with "Zionists") is not great, and honestly makes me feel alone and estranged from folks with whom I shared in labors so recently. My synagogue has members that lost family in the 10/7 attacks, and . . . I guess I just wish there was a better way of condemning the State of Israel's actions and polices without falling into some rather nasty stereotypes that border on blood libel. Both American Jews and American Palestinians are at greater risk, despite neither being direct parties to this conflict. I know we should recenter this conversation on the actual Levant, but the conversations about that have reverberations that go from there to here, and end up costing lives. I wish we all talked with a bit more care these days.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:37 PM on November 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:37 PM on November 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
Compare and contrast with Maya Regev on her release: “Bye, Shukran!” – waves and smiles.
Yes, I'm sure that was a sincere smile and wave. I'm sure she was not traumatized. I'm sure she had no hard feelings about being kidnapped, as that was far better than being one of the 364 people slaughtered by Hamas at the music festival she was attending. I'm sure that she was not a victim of sexual violence and/or didn't fear it. I'm sure she was delighted to have been shot only in the leg rather than the head. And I'm sure as she recovers from surgery that she has no concern for her kidnapped brother.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:47 PM on November 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
Yes, I'm sure that was a sincere smile and wave. I'm sure she was not traumatized. I'm sure she had no hard feelings about being kidnapped, as that was far better than being one of the 364 people slaughtered by Hamas at the music festival she was attending. I'm sure that she was not a victim of sexual violence and/or didn't fear it. I'm sure she was delighted to have been shot only in the leg rather than the head. And I'm sure as she recovers from surgery that she has no concern for her kidnapped brother.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:47 PM on November 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
We have not reached two dozen comments and it's fair to say some people are jumping to be as combative as possible.
There is plenty of bad blood in the world, if we can try to minimize that in the thread it would be good?
posted by elkevelvet at 12:52 PM on November 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
There is plenty of bad blood in the world, if we can try to minimize that in the thread it would be good?
posted by elkevelvet at 12:52 PM on November 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Yes, please consider that freed hostages often are reacting to their situations in ways that are complex. The very act of being kidnapped, even without torture, ill-treatment, or assault, is violence. Being grabbed against your will and kept somewhere is violence. However, that being said, people survive that violence in different ways using their social skills to lessen the chance of violence by captors, to ensure the safety of other hostages, and to lessen the trauma from the experience.
All this means: don't read too much into hostage reactions, or try to spin things as "good" or "bad" captivity. They aren't tea leaves and should not be read in such a way as to justify kidnapping, imprisonment, and worse.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:57 PM on November 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
All this means: don't read too much into hostage reactions, or try to spin things as "good" or "bad" captivity. They aren't tea leaves and should not be read in such a way as to justify kidnapping, imprisonment, and worse.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:57 PM on November 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
Antisemites the world over are very happy about both of these facts.
I imagine they're also pretty happy that both American and Israeli mainstream Jewish leaders are openly embracing antisemites to destroy the Jewish left.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:12 PM on November 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
I imagine they're also pretty happy that both American and Israeli mainstream Jewish leaders are openly embracing antisemites to destroy the Jewish left.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:12 PM on November 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
“Israel Has Already Lost,” John Ganz, Unpopular Front, 27 November 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 1:13 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 1:13 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I just revel in how farcical it's become that calling for a ceasefire is tantamount to antisemitism.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 1:22 PM on November 28, 2023 [37 favorites]
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 1:22 PM on November 28, 2023 [37 favorites]
I am terribly afraid that, like bin ladin, hamas has succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. The massive violence against civilians in Gaza will both isolate Israel internationally as well as radicalize thousands of Palestinian survivors into militancy. Meanwhile the hamas leaders who planned the attack on 10/7 are well insulated from repercussions.
My hope is that the Israeli people will soon wake up from their grief oust Netanyahu, giving him the blame that he deserves. Israel deserves a leader that values peace over revenge.
I have the same hope for the Palestinian people to oust hamas but I fear that because hamas runs Gaza like a criminal gang, their path is much more difficult.
posted by being_quiet at 1:24 PM on November 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
My hope is that the Israeli people will soon wake up from their grief oust Netanyahu, giving him the blame that he deserves. Israel deserves a leader that values peace over revenge.
I have the same hope for the Palestinian people to oust hamas but I fear that because hamas runs Gaza like a criminal gang, their path is much more difficult.
posted by being_quiet at 1:24 PM on November 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
Mod note: Another comment deleted. Please refrain from referring to an entire demographic as a whole to make harmful generalizations.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:35 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 1:35 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
calling for a ceasefire is tantamount to antisemitism
As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread is currently saying this, though it's certainly part of the discourse in the wider world. What they're saying is that how you call for a ceasefire matters, and that the wider left has been doing so in a way that seems to flirt with patterns of antisemitic discourse (if not outright antisemitically).
Perhaps you disagree with this framing—thinking that the left hasn't been demonstrating antisemitic behavior, or that speech policing isn't terribly useful in the present crisis, and so on. But surely it's worth engaging with the positions expressed in this thread?
posted by the tartare yolk at 1:46 PM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread is currently saying this, though it's certainly part of the discourse in the wider world. What they're saying is that how you call for a ceasefire matters, and that the wider left has been doing so in a way that seems to flirt with patterns of antisemitic discourse (if not outright antisemitically).
Perhaps you disagree with this framing—thinking that the left hasn't been demonstrating antisemitic behavior, or that speech policing isn't terribly useful in the present crisis, and so on. But surely it's worth engaging with the positions expressed in this thread?
posted by the tartare yolk at 1:46 PM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
“Israel Has Already Lost,”
They [The Israeli government] believe the hard lesson of history is that this is the only way to deal with Jew-hate, but it’s an approach that’s increasingly endangering the very nation that’s supposed to exist to protect the Jews. Also, if the world is as totally antisemitic as Zionists believe it to be and if all the negative sentiment directed at Israel is merely the expression of an eternal antisemitism, then all is already lost.
It reminds me of some of the more bitter arguments about feminism I have and what I see as a core idea behind TERF politics: Liberation is impossible, there is only mitigation. Thus boundaries, barriers, alliances with fascists who agree on those boundaries and barriers, and at best an indifference to anyone who is hurt by those hard lines.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:47 PM on November 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
They [The Israeli government] believe the hard lesson of history is that this is the only way to deal with Jew-hate, but it’s an approach that’s increasingly endangering the very nation that’s supposed to exist to protect the Jews. Also, if the world is as totally antisemitic as Zionists believe it to be and if all the negative sentiment directed at Israel is merely the expression of an eternal antisemitism, then all is already lost.
It reminds me of some of the more bitter arguments about feminism I have and what I see as a core idea behind TERF politics: Liberation is impossible, there is only mitigation. Thus boundaries, barriers, alliances with fascists who agree on those boundaries and barriers, and at best an indifference to anyone who is hurt by those hard lines.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:47 PM on November 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
> that speech policing isn't terribly useful in the present crisis
Whole heartedly this. More Palestinian children have died in this one conflict than Israelis have been killed since its founding.
Zionists have a history of using accusations of antisemitism to silence critiques of land theft and killing civilians, which dilutes the work Jews have done to name and fight antisemitism more generally.
posted by constraint at 1:54 PM on November 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
Whole heartedly this. More Palestinian children have died in this one conflict than Israelis have been killed since its founding.
Zionists have a history of using accusations of antisemitism to silence critiques of land theft and killing civilians, which dilutes the work Jews have done to name and fight antisemitism more generally.
posted by constraint at 1:54 PM on November 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
I think it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about how some people are saying some antisemitic things without calling out who and what specifically. I also don't think that Metafilter is a great place for that discussion because it would require dragging those antisemitic comments into this space. Maybe let's try a different approach to the topic?
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:56 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:56 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
I have for the most part opted out of these conversations, here and elsewhere...but it seems to me that one of the most distressing things about this moment is how hard it is to see/imagine/hope for a solution that could actually work and bring peace. I don't mean that in a simple doomy sort of way, but in consideration of all that has happened and previous attempts and the plans that exist right now, and their likelihood of acceptance and success. So I guess its just easier to turn to a conversation of blame and attack than hashing out options for a true and lasting peace.
posted by supermedusa at 2:04 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 2:04 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
I only just within the past couple of weeks learned that Israel, as a country, has no actual constitution. It exists on a bunch of existing legal frameworks and stuff, but there is no document that actually creates the outline of the government of Israel and how it's meant to function. This is why Bebe has been able to be effective with his efforts to pull the government toward his own purposes.
Israel is not alone in this, there are a few other countries including I think New Zealand who function like this.
I don't mean anything by this at all, it's just a thing that I thought that EVERY country had a establishing document. Not all of them, it turns out.
posted by hippybear at 2:14 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Israel is not alone in this, there are a few other countries including I think New Zealand who function like this.
I don't mean anything by this at all, it's just a thing that I thought that EVERY country had a establishing document. Not all of them, it turns out.
posted by hippybear at 2:14 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
More Palestinian children have died in this one conflict than Israelis have been killed since its founding.
That is... not true? The actual numbers are horrific enough without a need to make false exaggerated claims. Especially within a comment scolding Israelis for doing the same!
posted by gwint at 2:19 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
That is... not true? The actual numbers are horrific enough without a need to make false exaggerated claims. Especially within a comment scolding Israelis for doing the same!
posted by gwint at 2:19 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
I haven't commented much in the first thread and do not plan to comment much in this one. Just wanted to say thanks to cendawanita for their hard work on keeping us up to date and to the thoughtful posters who think though their comments before posting. That is not always something I do, and I much admire that ability in others.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:30 PM on November 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:30 PM on November 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
Just wanted to say thanks to cendawanita for their hard work on keeping us up to date and to the thoughtful posters who think though their comments before posting. That is not always something I do, and I much admire that ability in others.
Seconded! And extending additional thanks to everyone who helps make these threads a useful place to aggregate news with links to sources, especially now that Twitter is broken beyond usability or reliability.
posted by kensington314 at 2:56 PM on November 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Seconded! And extending additional thanks to everyone who helps make these threads a useful place to aggregate news with links to sources, especially now that Twitter is broken beyond usability or reliability.
posted by kensington314 at 2:56 PM on November 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
I consider myself a dedicated progressive, but I have also observed leftist friends - folks who attend music festivals religiously - rationalising the massacre at Supernova Sukkot because it was only a few km from Gaza.
These folks also rationalise the equally brutal assault on Ukraine because they believe Russian aggression is fighting US imperialism.
This is not because they are evil or just plain sadistic like many on the far right. It's because the majority of people are unable to be sufficiently objective when the Internet and emotions are involved. Every time I try to talk them down from this, I am accused of being a right wing troll, or at the very least a "centrist extremist".
The common link is propaganda created by the global right to invalidate the left in the eyes of the mainstream. It's been done over and over, forever. It worked beautifully for Putin, and it's working beautifully for Netanyahu - he said it himself.
Given that, in the eyes of the mainstream, Fox News and Ben Shapiro are now regarded as centre-right and Joe Rogan is somehow now a centrist, it's working in the West as well.
posted by CynicalKnight at 2:57 PM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
These folks also rationalise the equally brutal assault on Ukraine because they believe Russian aggression is fighting US imperialism.
This is not because they are evil or just plain sadistic like many on the far right. It's because the majority of people are unable to be sufficiently objective when the Internet and emotions are involved. Every time I try to talk them down from this, I am accused of being a right wing troll, or at the very least a "centrist extremist".
The common link is propaganda created by the global right to invalidate the left in the eyes of the mainstream. It's been done over and over, forever. It worked beautifully for Putin, and it's working beautifully for Netanyahu - he said it himself.
Given that, in the eyes of the mainstream, Fox News and Ben Shapiro are now regarded as centre-right and Joe Rogan is somehow now a centrist, it's working in the West as well.
posted by CynicalKnight at 2:57 PM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
someone told me or I made it up that extreme rhetoric from one side or another is just an attempt at cessation of an opposing argument by any means possible with necessity as its second option. for example.
"The hostages' families should have been jailed to shut them up, says former US citizen who was an Israeli spy.'
'What is Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard's life like after aliyah? 4-11-23
I'sraeli National Security Minister Ben-Gvir Intervenes to Help Ex-spy Jonathan Pollard Get a Gun License'
"Pollard was honored by Mayor of Jerusalem Moshe Lion at a Jerusalem Day gala in 2021. Pollard gave the keynote address to the gala, in which he accused the U.S. government of anti-Semitism, called the U.S State Department and the United Nations enemies of Israel, and referred to the Biden administration as "Amalek." In Jewish tradition, the 613 commandments mandates that Amalekites must be killed."
I read Obi1' link, why Israel's already lost. I think in the first day or two of this conflict I said that Israel would isolate itself by massive retaliation so this is no surprise to anyone or rather it shouldn't be. but I chose Pollard as an example of the type of F-16 unquote total mobilization, total war approach. in as much as the "statecraft' involved with Pollard' views, The United States and Israel should be untethered as Israel no doubt could win every battle, regionally, but it could exclusively lose the war. As a micro example Pollard was jailed for 30 years despite the nature of American and Israeli relationships when it comes to the sharing of information on middle Eastern intelligence. His silence was golden then, His rhetoric was valued, now.
I'm surprised there was a ceasefire, I was surprised there was an extension I was surprised that Hamas has basically scaled back attacks. I'm surprised that there's 800 trucks, I believe, waiting for supplies to get into gaza.
this is a war of infinite complexity. ideological, political, and perhaps religious.
as I see it this is not a war of Israel's survival, the exigency of survival but a war that Israel must fight within itself to stop.
1,000 boats said set to leave Turkey for Gaza waters in new ‘Freedom Flotilla’
a member up thread commented about solutions and how other people should not impose those I believe this is more of a semantic issue and I agree. there's really no time for a solution at this point other than a ceasefire and continue negotiations that is the only helpful thing I can see. talking about the hospital bombing and it's outrage and comparative analysis netanyahu rattling on about hospital bombings by the British, all these comparative analysis that's been going on for a century are just part of a timeline to a chronology comprised mainly of names and fire.
posted by clavdivs at 3:10 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
"The hostages' families should have been jailed to shut them up, says former US citizen who was an Israeli spy.'
'What is Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard's life like after aliyah? 4-11-23
I'sraeli National Security Minister Ben-Gvir Intervenes to Help Ex-spy Jonathan Pollard Get a Gun License'
"Pollard was honored by Mayor of Jerusalem Moshe Lion at a Jerusalem Day gala in 2021. Pollard gave the keynote address to the gala, in which he accused the U.S. government of anti-Semitism, called the U.S State Department and the United Nations enemies of Israel, and referred to the Biden administration as "Amalek." In Jewish tradition, the 613 commandments mandates that Amalekites must be killed."
I read Obi1' link, why Israel's already lost. I think in the first day or two of this conflict I said that Israel would isolate itself by massive retaliation so this is no surprise to anyone or rather it shouldn't be. but I chose Pollard as an example of the type of F-16 unquote total mobilization, total war approach. in as much as the "statecraft' involved with Pollard' views, The United States and Israel should be untethered as Israel no doubt could win every battle, regionally, but it could exclusively lose the war. As a micro example Pollard was jailed for 30 years despite the nature of American and Israeli relationships when it comes to the sharing of information on middle Eastern intelligence. His silence was golden then, His rhetoric was valued, now.
I'm surprised there was a ceasefire, I was surprised there was an extension I was surprised that Hamas has basically scaled back attacks. I'm surprised that there's 800 trucks, I believe, waiting for supplies to get into gaza.
this is a war of infinite complexity. ideological, political, and perhaps religious.
as I see it this is not a war of Israel's survival, the exigency of survival but a war that Israel must fight within itself to stop.
1,000 boats said set to leave Turkey for Gaza waters in new ‘Freedom Flotilla’
a member up thread commented about solutions and how other people should not impose those I believe this is more of a semantic issue and I agree. there's really no time for a solution at this point other than a ceasefire and continue negotiations that is the only helpful thing I can see. talking about the hospital bombing and it's outrage and comparative analysis netanyahu rattling on about hospital bombings by the British, all these comparative analysis that's been going on for a century are just part of a timeline to a chronology comprised mainly of names and fire.
posted by clavdivs at 3:10 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
From the "Israel has Already Lost" piece posted upthread:
And what has all this death and destruction accomplished for the stated goal of destroying Hamas. Embarrassingly little: “Israel’s military estimates it has killed between 1,000 and 2,000 Hamas fighters out of a military force it believes is about 30,000 strong.” So, at the cost of between 12,000 and 14,000 civilians they have barely hurt Hamas. This is an inexact calculation obviously, but, if they are serious about destroying Hamas, and the rate of death remains comparable, then we would be looking at hundreds of thousands of deaths. At that point talk of “genocide” starts to sound less like rhetoric and more like reality. Some callous or cruel people may be able to say to themselves, “Well, they have it coming” or “This is war,” but that “message” is unlikely to resonate with the world public.posted by kensington314 at 3:14 PM on November 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Mod note: One comment and a reply deleted. If you have a particular problem with the way this thread is structured or being moderated, send us an email with your feedback. Do not derail this thread. Thanks!
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:31 PM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:31 PM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
At some point, people who keep being told they are antisemitic for opposing ethnic cleansing and genocide are going to throw their hands up and say "Well, if you insist that's what antisemitism is, then fine, whatever, I'm antisemitic." As a Jewish person, I'm very scared of that moment. Zionists have been rapidly and somewhat successfully trying to render the very concept of antisemitism meaningless and I don't want to see what's on the other side of that.
posted by dusty potato at 3:54 PM on November 28, 2023 [75 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 3:54 PM on November 28, 2023 [75 favorites]
The entire intersection between Israel, Zionism, Judaism, Jews, Israelis, and probably one or two other things I'm leaving out is... the most extreme minefield of anything on this planet, really.
posted by hippybear at 4:00 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:00 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
(I feel you hippybear. My wife and I, equally uninformed and with zero personal connection to any part of the conflict besides being anti violence and pro human life got into a major argument about how to not talk about this appropriately.)
3rding thanks for the informative posts.
posted by kittensofthenight at 4:20 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
3rding thanks for the informative posts.
posted by kittensofthenight at 4:20 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
So like, what the hell brings this to a Good Friday Accords moment? Hamas is still going to launch rockets, Likud will gloat about "mowing the grass". It's like the Rohingya Genocide if it were ever so lightly less one sided, everyone of consequence on the world stage just shuffling around awkwardly and making concerned noises, if they acknowledge it at all.
posted by Slackermagee at 4:22 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 4:22 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The only reason Hamas has any power at all is that George W Bush decided to pressure Israel into giving Gaza elections back in the mid-2000s.
There have been no elections in Gaza since then.
posted by hippybear at 4:26 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
There have been no elections in Gaza since then.
posted by hippybear at 4:26 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
So like, what the hell brings this to a Good Friday Accords moment?
Israel needs to withdraw from the West Bank, for a start, under threat of sanctions and loss of US funding, probably, since it doesn't seem like mild international disapproval has much effect. There is no incentive for the Palestinians to accept any engagement from Israel as being in good faith, given over fifty years of human rights abuses and violations of international law and the avowed purpose of the present Netanyahu government to make the existence of any Palestinian state impossible.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:39 PM on November 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Israel needs to withdraw from the West Bank, for a start, under threat of sanctions and loss of US funding, probably, since it doesn't seem like mild international disapproval has much effect. There is no incentive for the Palestinians to accept any engagement from Israel as being in good faith, given over fifty years of human rights abuses and violations of international law and the avowed purpose of the present Netanyahu government to make the existence of any Palestinian state impossible.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:39 PM on November 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Jon Stewart, in an interview I've been searching for but cannot find, seems to have expressed all this the best I have seen.
All the parties in power, the US, the Israelis, the Egyptians, the Saudis, the UAE, the Europeans, the African Union, the Russians, any group in south Asia including China or Japan or whomever, is a group which has more power and more influence than any party involving Palestine.
There is no party in that group listed above, and including any number of other interested groups, that benefits from having the Palestine situation resolved.
The Palestinians themselves do not count because they have no power now and in any resolved solution will have no power.
So there is no party who has power who has any interest in seeing the I/P situation resolved, and all the parties involved are incentivized to keep the conflict continue for purposes of power/funding.
As long as the party who has the most to lose in this has zero power to end it and has zero support to end it... there is no hope for it to end. And that was before this Hamas bullshit.
posted by hippybear at 4:48 PM on November 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
All the parties in power, the US, the Israelis, the Egyptians, the Saudis, the UAE, the Europeans, the African Union, the Russians, any group in south Asia including China or Japan or whomever, is a group which has more power and more influence than any party involving Palestine.
There is no party in that group listed above, and including any number of other interested groups, that benefits from having the Palestine situation resolved.
The Palestinians themselves do not count because they have no power now and in any resolved solution will have no power.
So there is no party who has power who has any interest in seeing the I/P situation resolved, and all the parties involved are incentivized to keep the conflict continue for purposes of power/funding.
As long as the party who has the most to lose in this has zero power to end it and has zero support to end it... there is no hope for it to end. And that was before this Hamas bullshit.
posted by hippybear at 4:48 PM on November 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
I don't want to see what's on the other side of that
I can try. Let's switch Zionist with expansionist in this particular point time about a series of events from the past.
"Farther I could find it in my heart to wish that you had been at the head of a hundred thousand Israelites ... and marching with them into Judea and making a conquest of that country andrestoring your nation to the dominion of it. For I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation. [I believe ... once restored to an independent government & no longer persecuted they [the Jews] would soon wear away some of the asperities and peculiarities of their character & possibly in time become liberal Unitarian christians for your Jehovah is our Jehovah & your God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is our God.]"
-John Adams. (Letter to Mordecai Manuel Noah, 1819)
John Quincy Adams, 1819.
1819: Congress pays missionaries to ‘civilize’ American Indians
Congress appropriates $10,000 to pay what it calls people of “good moral character” to help the U.S. eliminate Native military resistance and suppress Native traditional practices. Religious denominations are assigned to specific tribes. While encouraging the tribes to convert, the hired missionaries also urge them to adopt white styles of dress, housing, and farming.
'American Protestants did not start out their two-centuries' long relationship with the people of Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria from a position of care and respect. Levi Parsons and Pliny Fisk sailed for Jerusalem in late 1819, tasked by the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions with evangelizing the Jewish population of Palestine and thereby bringing about the apocalypse and the end of time.
posted by clavdivs at 4:50 PM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can try. Let's switch Zionist with expansionist in this particular point time about a series of events from the past.
"Farther I could find it in my heart to wish that you had been at the head of a hundred thousand Israelites ... and marching with them into Judea and making a conquest of that country andrestoring your nation to the dominion of it. For I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation. [I believe ... once restored to an independent government & no longer persecuted they [the Jews] would soon wear away some of the asperities and peculiarities of their character & possibly in time become liberal Unitarian christians for your Jehovah is our Jehovah & your God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is our God.]"
-John Adams. (Letter to Mordecai Manuel Noah, 1819)
John Quincy Adams, 1819.
1819: Congress pays missionaries to ‘civilize’ American Indians
Congress appropriates $10,000 to pay what it calls people of “good moral character” to help the U.S. eliminate Native military resistance and suppress Native traditional practices. Religious denominations are assigned to specific tribes. While encouraging the tribes to convert, the hired missionaries also urge them to adopt white styles of dress, housing, and farming.
'American Protestants did not start out their two-centuries' long relationship with the people of Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria from a position of care and respect. Levi Parsons and Pliny Fisk sailed for Jerusalem in late 1819, tasked by the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions with evangelizing the Jewish population of Palestine and thereby bringing about the apocalypse and the end of time.
posted by clavdivs at 4:50 PM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
The only reason Hamas has any power at all is that George W Bush decided to pressure Israel into giving Gaza elections back in the mid-2000s.
Huh?
Netanyahu had a policy for over a decade of boosting Hamas so he wouldn't have to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority and could continue blocking a Palestinian state. We've discussed this at length in the two previous threads; it's well-established from multiple Israeli media sources, including Ha'atetz and the conservative Jerusalem Post. We're talking suitcases of money Netanyahu approved going to Hamas from Qatar under Israeli supervision. Boosting Hamas was a clear strategy of Netanyahu's for years and years. (If those are paywalled the archive.is sites should work).
IMO, what made the previous threads useful was a balance tilting away from repeated opinionated comments in favor of sharing useful links. It would be so great if that continued, but if not, oh well.
posted by mediareport at 5:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
Huh?
Netanyahu had a policy for over a decade of boosting Hamas so he wouldn't have to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority and could continue blocking a Palestinian state. We've discussed this at length in the two previous threads; it's well-established from multiple Israeli media sources, including Ha'atetz and the conservative Jerusalem Post. We're talking suitcases of money Netanyahu approved going to Hamas from Qatar under Israeli supervision. Boosting Hamas was a clear strategy of Netanyahu's for years and years. (If those are paywalled the archive.is sites should work).
IMO, what made the previous threads useful was a balance tilting away from repeated opinionated comments in favor of sharing useful links. It would be so great if that continued, but if not, oh well.
posted by mediareport at 5:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
The US would absolutely benefit from the resolution of this conflict. That is an absurd statement. This is a tiny country with no particular strategic value, unlike say Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Yemen, etc. This conflict complicates all our strategic relationships and costs us lots of military, diplomatic and financial resources.
The US has tried over and over again to get a peace agreement and put this conflict in the past. It persists because there are a few players like Netanyahu, Hamas and others who do not want peace and rely on the conflict for their continued enrichment and political power.
posted by interogative mood at 5:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
The US has tried over and over again to get a peace agreement and put this conflict in the past. It persists because there are a few players like Netanyahu, Hamas and others who do not want peace and rely on the conflict for their continued enrichment and political power.
posted by interogative mood at 5:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is a tiny country with no particular strategic value
This is prima facie absurdist nonsense, considering how many foreign policy experts have written at length about why Israel as a US proxy is a strategic asset for the US.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:16 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is prima facie absurdist nonsense, considering how many foreign policy experts have written at length about why Israel as a US proxy is a strategic asset for the US.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:16 PM on November 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
The US isn’t a monolith. A resolution might be good for the country as a whole, while being a negative for various groups who either benefit from its continuance or are ideologically committed to a specific victory condition. And it doesn’t take much if those actors are well placed, look at what a Tuberville is able to accomplish all by his lonesome, for example.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:17 PM on November 28, 2023
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:17 PM on November 28, 2023
I would say that there are also quite a few players in the US military/industrial and religio/political arenas who also benefit from this conflict not resolving.
posted by youthenrage at 5:18 PM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 5:18 PM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
It honestly feels like kind of a watershed moment in American politics to see the NYT willing to print literally any criticism of Israel, given how I have heard from industry people that for decades, there was a literal taboo against the idea of ever criticizing the Israeli government under any circumstances, at least if you intended to keep working in media.
I'm kind of reminded of how about a week after the assassination of former Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe, the dam suddenly burst on acknowledging not only the existence of the Unification Church in Japan but its significant financial entanglement with Japan's ruling party (I have seen Japan accurately described as a "1⅓-party state"), because there had been a long-standing taboo that a media outlet finally willingly violated during circumstances that could justify it. Then, suddenly, everyone was willing to actually say things.
I do think a lot about the observation I encountered recently, that it feels like to some extent, the Israeli government has just sort of gotten used to the idea that no one in any country that "mattered" to them (i.e. US and Europe) was watching anything they do, and so now that there's any scrutiny at all on their actions, the government propaganda machine is sputtering and doesn't really know how to handle any but the most receptive audience imaginable.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:00 PM on November 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I'm kind of reminded of how about a week after the assassination of former Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe, the dam suddenly burst on acknowledging not only the existence of the Unification Church in Japan but its significant financial entanglement with Japan's ruling party (I have seen Japan accurately described as a "1⅓-party state"), because there had been a long-standing taboo that a media outlet finally willingly violated during circumstances that could justify it. Then, suddenly, everyone was willing to actually say things.
I do think a lot about the observation I encountered recently, that it feels like to some extent, the Israeli government has just sort of gotten used to the idea that no one in any country that "mattered" to them (i.e. US and Europe) was watching anything they do, and so now that there's any scrutiny at all on their actions, the government propaganda machine is sputtering and doesn't really know how to handle any but the most receptive audience imaginable.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:00 PM on November 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
It honestly feels like kind of a watershed moment in American politics to see the NYT willing to print literally any criticism of IsraelI think the Al Shifa hospital bombing is what finally broke the third rail of no criticism of Israel at the NYT.
They put their credibility on the line by uncritically reprinting the IDF/American Goverment story.
And then an internal investigation by their own reporters found that the IDF was lying and the video proof was inconclusive.
And then Israel went to bomb the same hospital again along with bombing every other hospital in Northern Gaza.
And then the IDF invaded the actual hospital, and found no Hamas and no tunnels.
posted by zymil at 6:49 PM on November 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
The best calm informational — rather than heated or accusatory — discussion of Israel and Palestine I've seen was held at Dartmouth College 10/12/23, and is now being used as a model at other universities.
Amanpour and Company did a great 18-minute story on it if you don't have much time. The report describes how the chair of Dartmouth's Middle Eastern Studies Department, who was in Cairo on 10/7/23, called the chair of the Jewish Studies Department as soon as he realized how serious the Hamas attack was. Together, they decided to create a forum for discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcBCmpqn708
The 90-minute-long forum that resulted (this is the second of two; the first is not online) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2FmYGfN7o
It has a slow collegiate-feeling start, but it gets better and better. All four of the participants have fascinating overlapping backgrounds in the Middle East, Israel and the US, and several of them have co-taught Jewish-Palestinian-Middle Eastern classes together. All of them address the subject matter in a nuanced way. One is even a former diplomat.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:57 PM on November 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
Amanpour and Company did a great 18-minute story on it if you don't have much time. The report describes how the chair of Dartmouth's Middle Eastern Studies Department, who was in Cairo on 10/7/23, called the chair of the Jewish Studies Department as soon as he realized how serious the Hamas attack was. Together, they decided to create a forum for discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcBCmpqn708
The 90-minute-long forum that resulted (this is the second of two; the first is not online) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2FmYGfN7o
It has a slow collegiate-feeling start, but it gets better and better. All four of the participants have fascinating overlapping backgrounds in the Middle East, Israel and the US, and several of them have co-taught Jewish-Palestinian-Middle Eastern classes together. All of them address the subject matter in a nuanced way. One is even a former diplomat.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:57 PM on November 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
This is prima facie absurdist nonsense, considering how many foreign policy experts have written at length about why Israel as a US proxy is a strategic asset for the US
Experts like these ones:
Israel is becoming a strategic liability for the US because of the unresolved Palestinian Conflict
General David Petraeus, John Mearsheimer, and Stephan Walt are serious, well known foreign policy thinkers and they have all questioned if Israel is a strategic asset or a strategic liability to the United States.
I think if you actually review the writings of most experts you will find that there is an consensus that our relationship with Israel isn’t driven by a significant strategic interest but by a sense of shared values, cultural and political ties. We’ve seen with recent polling that those connections are starting to fade. The brutality of the Israeli invasion of Gaza has accelerated that trend.
Event this article in the Jerusalem Post which argues that Israel is a strategic asset for the US notes that the relationship is built on three pillars with its strategic inportance being only one of three. The article questions if Israel’s value as a strategic partner is in decline because of the US’ pivot towards Asia.
posted by interogative mood at 7:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Experts like these ones:
Israel is becoming a strategic liability for the US because of the unresolved Palestinian Conflict
General David Petraeus, John Mearsheimer, and Stephan Walt are serious, well known foreign policy thinkers and they have all questioned if Israel is a strategic asset or a strategic liability to the United States.
I think if you actually review the writings of most experts you will find that there is an consensus that our relationship with Israel isn’t driven by a significant strategic interest but by a sense of shared values, cultural and political ties. We’ve seen with recent polling that those connections are starting to fade. The brutality of the Israeli invasion of Gaza has accelerated that trend.
Event this article in the Jerusalem Post which argues that Israel is a strategic asset for the US notes that the relationship is built on three pillars with its strategic inportance being only one of three. The article questions if Israel’s value as a strategic partner is in decline because of the US’ pivot towards Asia.
posted by interogative mood at 7:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Easter Rising of 1916 was initially "very unpopular with most Irish people who were highly critical of the rebel leaders."
The executions turned public sentiment against the British and led to a rise of support for republicanism.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:04 PM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
...there were many people who were happy with the status quo, or at least happy enough not to consider it a major issue. There was a growing Catholic middle class who were doing well under British rule. Thousands of people were employed by British owned companies and were pleased just to have a job.Then the British executed 14 people over a 10-day period, including people who either weren't leaders or who hadn't joined the rising, despite British promises to only execute the ringleaders. James Connolly had been so severely injured that he was unable to stand "so he was tied to a chair and then shot."
The executions turned public sentiment against the British and led to a rise of support for republicanism.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:04 PM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Reminder to please use the “Link” button on the far right of the menu just below the comment input box to make clickable links, instead of just copying urls as plain text.)
posted by eviemath at 8:13 PM on November 28, 2023
posted by eviemath at 8:13 PM on November 28, 2023
The executions turned public sentiment against the British and led to a rise of support for republicanism.
As a comment I saw somewhere or other (possibly Twitter, possibly Bluesky) said, "Israel has done more damage to its international reputation since October 7th than its critics have managed in decades".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:28 PM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
As a comment I saw somewhere or other (possibly Twitter, possibly Bluesky) said, "Israel has done more damage to its international reputation since October 7th than its critics have managed in decades".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:28 PM on November 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
(copying my fedi post text)
As it so happens, today (eta: my time which is already the 29th) is the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, and earlier ASHTAR Theatre in Palestine put out a call to all theatre practitioners to perform and read the monologues here, which came out from the 2008-09 aggression.
The Gaza Monologues are testimonies written by ASHTAR youth in 2010, after the first war on the Gaza Strip. Tragically, these Monologues are still accurate today. They are highlighting the horrors, hopes and resilience of the courageous Gazans to a wider audience, bringing out the voices of children and people in Gaza.
on ig and yt the tags #GazaMonologues #AshtarTheatre should yield stuff. The theatre group I hang out with did call for readers/performers, and we did a session on Monday night. The videos are being uploaded here: IG and YT . But we're just one of many.
I do wonder what happened to these kids.
posted by cendawanita at 9:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
As it so happens, today (eta: my time which is already the 29th) is the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, and earlier ASHTAR Theatre in Palestine put out a call to all theatre practitioners to perform and read the monologues here, which came out from the 2008-09 aggression.
The Gaza Monologues are testimonies written by ASHTAR youth in 2010, after the first war on the Gaza Strip. Tragically, these Monologues are still accurate today. They are highlighting the horrors, hopes and resilience of the courageous Gazans to a wider audience, bringing out the voices of children and people in Gaza.
on ig and yt the tags #GazaMonologues #AshtarTheatre should yield stuff. The theatre group I hang out with did call for readers/performers, and we did a session on Monday night. The videos are being uploaded here: IG and YT . But we're just one of many.
I do wonder what happened to these kids.
posted by cendawanita at 9:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Stealing time from my lunch hour, but there seems to be some fresh US politics-related sidebar, but I'm not at the right capacity to judge what's worth putting in or just noise (even if relevant noise). However, one of the Palestinian shooting victims and his family have been quoted by the press:
Hisham Awartani's public statement: At a vigil on the Brown campus today, a professor read a statement from one of the shooting victims, Hisham Awartani, a Brown student.
In the statement, Awartani expressed his appreciation for the outpouring of love and prayers and made a joke about being famous, but the statement took a more solemn tone as he wrote that the shooting was part of a larger story.
"This hideous crime did not happen in a vacuum. As much as I appreciate the love of every single one of you here today, I am but one casualty in a much wider conflict," the statement said. "Had I been shot in the West Bank, where I grew up, the medical services which saved my life here would have likely been withheld by the Israeli army. The soldier who would have shot me would go home and never be convicted."
Awartani said, "Any attempt like this is horrific, be it here or in
Palestine."
Mother of Palestinian student shot in Vermont thought he would be safer in U.S. - "My husband didn't want Hisham to come back for Christmas," says Awartani's mother Elizabeth Price. "He thought our son would be safer [in the U.S.] than in Palestine."
On Saturday, Awartani, 20, was one of three men of Palestinian descent shot while visiting family in Burlington, Vermont. According to Price, her son was severely injured.
"The doctors are currently saying it's unlikely he'll be able to use his legs again," Price tells NPR by phone from her home in Ramallah. "He's confronting a life of disability, a potentially irreversible change to his life and what it means for his future."
Analysis piece in al-Jazeera: The beginning of the end? The hypothetical future of Palestinian politics
Mondoweiss piece on an op-ed made last week by a retired Israeli general - Since October 7, there has been no shortage of genocidal calls from Israeli leaders, as well as clear plans, also at ministerial level, for the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza. And while the usage of biblical euphemisms like Prime Minister Netanyahu’s “Amalek” reference may appear too vague for some, even if the story suggests killing infants, on Sunday ret. Major General Giora Eiland, former head of the National Security Council and current advisor to the Defense Minister decided to spell out genocide more explicitly.
In a Hebrew article on the printed edition of the centrist Yedioth Ahronoth titled “Let’s not be intimidated by the world,” Eiland clarified that the whole Gazan civilian population was a legitimate target and that even “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer.”
Also this week, a NoTechForApartheid panel which also has valuable context with regards to the global military-defence complex (can't comment yet, it's on my to-watch). I saw the announcement for it from Timnit Gebru.
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 PM on November 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Hisham Awartani's public statement: At a vigil on the Brown campus today, a professor read a statement from one of the shooting victims, Hisham Awartani, a Brown student.
In the statement, Awartani expressed his appreciation for the outpouring of love and prayers and made a joke about being famous, but the statement took a more solemn tone as he wrote that the shooting was part of a larger story.
"This hideous crime did not happen in a vacuum. As much as I appreciate the love of every single one of you here today, I am but one casualty in a much wider conflict," the statement said. "Had I been shot in the West Bank, where I grew up, the medical services which saved my life here would have likely been withheld by the Israeli army. The soldier who would have shot me would go home and never be convicted."
Awartani said, "Any attempt like this is horrific, be it here or in
Palestine."
Mother of Palestinian student shot in Vermont thought he would be safer in U.S. - "My husband didn't want Hisham to come back for Christmas," says Awartani's mother Elizabeth Price. "He thought our son would be safer [in the U.S.] than in Palestine."
On Saturday, Awartani, 20, was one of three men of Palestinian descent shot while visiting family in Burlington, Vermont. According to Price, her son was severely injured.
"The doctors are currently saying it's unlikely he'll be able to use his legs again," Price tells NPR by phone from her home in Ramallah. "He's confronting a life of disability, a potentially irreversible change to his life and what it means for his future."
Analysis piece in al-Jazeera: The beginning of the end? The hypothetical future of Palestinian politics
Mondoweiss piece on an op-ed made last week by a retired Israeli general - Since October 7, there has been no shortage of genocidal calls from Israeli leaders, as well as clear plans, also at ministerial level, for the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza. And while the usage of biblical euphemisms like Prime Minister Netanyahu’s “Amalek” reference may appear too vague for some, even if the story suggests killing infants, on Sunday ret. Major General Giora Eiland, former head of the National Security Council and current advisor to the Defense Minister decided to spell out genocide more explicitly.
In a Hebrew article on the printed edition of the centrist Yedioth Ahronoth titled “Let’s not be intimidated by the world,” Eiland clarified that the whole Gazan civilian population was a legitimate target and that even “severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer.”
Also this week, a NoTechForApartheid panel which also has valuable context with regards to the global military-defence complex (can't comment yet, it's on my to-watch). I saw the announcement for it from Timnit Gebru.
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 PM on November 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem justifies shootings by saying "they were told there would be no celebrations".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:54 PM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:54 PM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
For the folks who asked for links, you might explore both Ezra Klein's writing and conversation-based podcasts and Thomas Friedman's opinion columns.
In a podcast-cum-transcript from 11/21/23, Klein interviews "Aaron David Miller ... a negotiator and adviser on the American side in the many Middle East peace processes the United States attempted to host to influence, to manage from 1985 to 2003 ... under George H.W. Bush, under Bill Clinton, under George W. Bush. He’s now a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Klein explains his interview choice this way:
In yesterday's Understanding the True Nature of the Hamas-Israel War, on the other hand, he argues that "[t]he reason the Hamas-Israel war can be hard for outsiders to understand is that three wars are going on at the same time: a war between Israeli Jews and the Palestinians exacerbated by a terrorist group, a war within Israeli and Palestinian societies over the future, and a war between Iran and its proxies and America and its allies.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:23 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In a podcast-cum-transcript from 11/21/23, Klein interviews "Aaron David Miller ... a negotiator and adviser on the American side in the many Middle East peace processes the United States attempted to host to influence, to manage from 1985 to 2003 ... under George H.W. Bush, under Bill Clinton, under George W. Bush. He’s now a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Klein explains his interview choice this way:
I’ve gone back and forth on whether to do an episode on why the Israeli-Palestinian peace process has failed and failed and failed. My worry is that immersing in past failure can become just a way to justify present action or worse, justify present refusal to keep trying. Peace processes don’t work until they do. Israelis and Palestinians and, for that matter, Americans are trapped in arguments over their past. Sometimes, it’s the ability to forget, not the ability to remember that is necessary to forge a future.Thomas Friedman has been studying, living in and writing on the Middle East for decades, and he has three Pulitzers to show for it. He's your go-to guy for short simple clear interpretations of events in a single column. I especially liked the Rescuers, which provides multiple vignettes of Israeli-Arab relations within Israel, including, for example, a story about some "righteous Bedouins" who risked their lives to save Jewish lives on the day of the attack.
But I can see in the conversations I’m having and the emails I’m getting that what did or didn’t happen in this or that negotiation, it really lingers in people’s minds. So I wanted to at least try and do an episode tracing the shape of the successes — and there have been some — and failures until now.
In yesterday's Understanding the True Nature of the Hamas-Israel War, on the other hand, he argues that "[t]he reason the Hamas-Israel war can be hard for outsiders to understand is that three wars are going on at the same time: a war between Israeli Jews and the Palestinians exacerbated by a terrorist group, a war within Israeli and Palestinian societies over the future, and a war between Iran and its proxies and America and its allies.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:23 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
calling for a ceasefire is tantamount to antisemitism
As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread is currently saying this, though it's certainly part of the discourse in the wider world. What they're saying is that how you call for a ceasefire matters, and that the wider left has been doing so in a way that seems to flirt with patterns of antisemitic discourse (if not outright antisemitically).
Uh, yeah, I'm going to need some citations on that one, not that I haven't seen that in the past, but right now the ADL just sent a letter to my university president calling for everyone calling for justice in Palestine (including, by the way, a lot of Jews) to be investigated for terrorism crimes for providing "material support" to Hamas by calling for opposing Zionism. When criticism of Zionism is being called antisemitism, I need to see precisely what's actually being discussed before I just blindly nod and smile.
posted by corb at 3:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [40 favorites]
As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread is currently saying this, though it's certainly part of the discourse in the wider world. What they're saying is that how you call for a ceasefire matters, and that the wider left has been doing so in a way that seems to flirt with patterns of antisemitic discourse (if not outright antisemitically).
Uh, yeah, I'm going to need some citations on that one, not that I haven't seen that in the past, but right now the ADL just sent a letter to my university president calling for everyone calling for justice in Palestine (including, by the way, a lot of Jews) to be investigated for terrorism crimes for providing "material support" to Hamas by calling for opposing Zionism. When criticism of Zionism is being called antisemitism, I need to see precisely what's actually being discussed before I just blindly nod and smile.
posted by corb at 3:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [40 favorites]
Friedman has been a dumbass hack for decades now. This guy hates Arabs with a passion (unless they’re made up cab drivers he uses in his op eds). Do I have to link to his “suck on this” video?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:18 AM on November 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:18 AM on November 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
The ADL is referring to a specific organization “Students for Justice in Palestine” (Official site). The organization has been involved in a number of controversies. NBC News has an article explaining how statements made by the national organization were seen by some as an endorsement of the October 7th attack and Hamas’ actions.
posted by interogative mood at 5:09 AM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:09 AM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
FTA: "DeSantis ordered Florida education officials to “deactivate” SJP chapters at the University of Florida and the University of South Florida, arguing that the “toolkit” constituted material support for a foreign terrorist organization — a felony."
How do you think this alliance is going to end?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:46 AM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
How do you think this alliance is going to end?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:46 AM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
The ADL is referring to a specific organization “Students for Justice in Palestine” (Official site). The organization has been involved in a number of controversies. NBC News has an article explaining how statements made by the national organization were seen by some as an endorsement of the October 7th attack and Hamas’ actions.
Even if we take the ADL at its word (which we shouldn't, for a number of reasons), it's clear both that none of what the SJP says rises to the extremely serious accusation of "material support for terrorism" and that SJP is just the ones they can officially nail down. This is just the latest example of orgs like ADL trying to get other Jews censored and attacked for not toeing the line, and they want the full force of the violent American police state behind it. They've made it clear it won't just stop with SJP, and that they're willing to side with some of the worst bigots in the country to get it done.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:54 AM on November 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
Even if we take the ADL at its word (which we shouldn't, for a number of reasons), it's clear both that none of what the SJP says rises to the extremely serious accusation of "material support for terrorism" and that SJP is just the ones they can officially nail down. This is just the latest example of orgs like ADL trying to get other Jews censored and attacked for not toeing the line, and they want the full force of the violent American police state behind it. They've made it clear it won't just stop with SJP, and that they're willing to side with some of the worst bigots in the country to get it done.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:54 AM on November 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
I think the Al Shifa hospital bombing is what finally broke the third rail of no criticism of Israel at the NYT.
And then an internal investigation by their own reporters found that the IDF was lying and the video proof was inconclusive.
Could someone point to that NYT investigation? Searching the NYT, I could find only this, which says "Israel’s assertion was partly bolstered by the military’s subsequent discovery of a tunnel beneath one section of the site. ... To help reporters corroborate its findings, the military took several journalists into the tunnel. The military also released footage of the tunnel that showed its position in relation to the rest of the site. ... However, the military has not yet shown evidence of the three other subterranean complexes that it said were under the hospital. The destruction of the one tunnel that it did find means that journalists will now be unable to enter and assess its use."
A Haaretz article concluded: "Only after several days of operating in the area did the army locate the Hamas tunnels passing through the heart of the compound, and invited journalists to see them with their own eyes. This serves as the unequivocal proof that the terror group used the hospital for its military needs."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:20 AM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
And then an internal investigation by their own reporters found that the IDF was lying and the video proof was inconclusive.
Could someone point to that NYT investigation? Searching the NYT, I could find only this, which says "Israel’s assertion was partly bolstered by the military’s subsequent discovery of a tunnel beneath one section of the site. ... To help reporters corroborate its findings, the military took several journalists into the tunnel. The military also released footage of the tunnel that showed its position in relation to the rest of the site. ... However, the military has not yet shown evidence of the three other subterranean complexes that it said were under the hospital. The destruction of the one tunnel that it did find means that journalists will now be unable to enter and assess its use."
A Haaretz article concluded: "Only after several days of operating in the area did the army locate the Hamas tunnels passing through the heart of the compound, and invited journalists to see them with their own eyes. This serves as the unequivocal proof that the terror group used the hospital for its military needs."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:20 AM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
For the hospital blast, Human Rights Watch's investigation points to a misfired Palestinian rocket. At this point I don't know of any serious investigation that has come to the opposite conclusion but I won't pretend that I've read everything. It's been a long time since I read the original NYT piece on this, but my memory is that it is in line with the current investigation's reporting.
Here's Elliot Higgins (founder of Bellingcat) commenting on twitter/x on the HRW report also.
All of this to say: I wish people would be more careful in selecting well-sourced claims, rather than repeating the things that make you mad whether or not there is solid substantiation. There is enough well-documented bad things happening to be mad about, we don't need to repeat the less substantiated claims uncritically.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:36 AM on November 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Here's Elliot Higgins (founder of Bellingcat) commenting on twitter/x on the HRW report also.
All of this to say: I wish people would be more careful in selecting well-sourced claims, rather than repeating the things that make you mad whether or not there is solid substantiation. There is enough well-documented bad things happening to be mad about, we don't need to repeat the less substantiated claims uncritically.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:36 AM on November 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Three excerpts from the ADL's letter are disturbingly telling:
The ADL is maliciously conflating anti-Israel with antisemitic.
It is also, apparently, arguing that there is something morally wrong, and apparently criminal in its view, with using inflamatority and combatitive rhetoric when opposing a nation actively engaged in genocide.
The ADL's contention seems to be that opposition to Israel's actions is, in and of itself, antisemitism and must be shut down. We've seen this attitude on display freuqently over the past several decades, including such absurdities as the Israeli government claiming that Natalie Portman, an Israeli Jew, was antisemitic because she didn't attend an event Netanyahu was hosting.
And it's why when I hear people saying that "the left" is going antisemitic I'm increasingly unwilling to accept that asertion is true without hearing for myself what specific things are being claimed to be antisemitic.
I have absolutely no doubt at all that there is a horrifying amount of antisemitism worldwide and in the left. I have absolutely no doubt that the antisemites are overjoyed that they can try to mainstream their bigotry in the guise of opposition to Israel's genocidal actions.
How to balance the twin certainties that there is genuine antisemitism happening and that the watchdogs who are supposed to call that out are compromised and no longer to be trusted? I don't know. I do know that the ADL and the other anti-antisemitic organizations have done great harm to Jews worldwide by becoming nothing but cheerleaders for the evils committed by the Israeli govenrment.
I'm not sure WHY Israeli authorities are pushing so hard to be preposterously and blatantly evil, but what the actual fuck?
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on November 29, 2023 [25 favorites]
We remain committed, however, to calling out and speaking out against antisemitism and anti-Israel bias.****
Across the United States, we have seen a significant surge in anti-Israel activity on campuses****
SJP is a network of student groups across the U.S., which disseminate anti-Israel propaganda often laced with inflammatory and combative rhetoric
The ADL is maliciously conflating anti-Israel with antisemitic.
It is also, apparently, arguing that there is something morally wrong, and apparently criminal in its view, with using inflamatority and combatitive rhetoric when opposing a nation actively engaged in genocide.
The ADL's contention seems to be that opposition to Israel's actions is, in and of itself, antisemitism and must be shut down. We've seen this attitude on display freuqently over the past several decades, including such absurdities as the Israeli government claiming that Natalie Portman, an Israeli Jew, was antisemitic because she didn't attend an event Netanyahu was hosting.
And it's why when I hear people saying that "the left" is going antisemitic I'm increasingly unwilling to accept that asertion is true without hearing for myself what specific things are being claimed to be antisemitic.
I have absolutely no doubt at all that there is a horrifying amount of antisemitism worldwide and in the left. I have absolutely no doubt that the antisemites are overjoyed that they can try to mainstream their bigotry in the guise of opposition to Israel's genocidal actions.
How to balance the twin certainties that there is genuine antisemitism happening and that the watchdogs who are supposed to call that out are compromised and no longer to be trusted? I don't know. I do know that the ADL and the other anti-antisemitic organizations have done great harm to Jews worldwide by becoming nothing but cheerleaders for the evils committed by the Israeli govenrment.
We understand a teenager has been shot. Is this the right way to handle the situation?" the interviewer asked, wherein Hassan-Nahoum replied, "Part of the deal is that there would be no celebrations for the release of attempted murderers."If I saw that in fiction I'd have dismissed it as so over the top stereotypically cartoon villain that it was silly and broke willing suspension of disbelief.
I'm not sure WHY Israeli authorities are pushing so hard to be preposterously and blatantly evil, but what the actual fuck?
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on November 29, 2023 [25 favorites]
Dip Flash IIRC the timeline went something like this:
Israel anounced it would destroy the hospital.
A bomb blew up in the hospital.
Concluding that Israel, as it has so many times in the past, bombed a hospital doesn't seem to be a stretch even if it turned out not to be correct.
Israel took several victory laps and had numerous spokespeople denouncing the evil antisemitic forces which had spread the false story of innocent and pure Israel bombing a hospital.
A few days later Isreal bombed the fuck out of the hospital, used snipers to murder doctors and patients, bombed ambulences trying to evacuate patients and doctors, destroyed the hospital's access to power and water.
People are continuing to obsess over and hyper focus on the initial possibly incorrect reporting about the very first bomb while utterly ignoring the subsiquent proudly admitted bombing, shooting, burning, and assault on the hospital by Israel.
So my question is: why are people still going on and on endlessly about the initial report instead of talking about stuff that happened after that?
posted by sotonohito at 8:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Israel anounced it would destroy the hospital.
A bomb blew up in the hospital.
Concluding that Israel, as it has so many times in the past, bombed a hospital doesn't seem to be a stretch even if it turned out not to be correct.
Israel took several victory laps and had numerous spokespeople denouncing the evil antisemitic forces which had spread the false story of innocent and pure Israel bombing a hospital.
A few days later Isreal bombed the fuck out of the hospital, used snipers to murder doctors and patients, bombed ambulences trying to evacuate patients and doctors, destroyed the hospital's access to power and water.
People are continuing to obsess over and hyper focus on the initial possibly incorrect reporting about the very first bomb while utterly ignoring the subsiquent proudly admitted bombing, shooting, burning, and assault on the hospital by Israel.
So my question is: why are people still going on and on endlessly about the initial report instead of talking about stuff that happened after that?
posted by sotonohito at 8:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
To add to this:
"And it's why when I hear people saying that "the left" is going antisemitic I'm increasingly unwilling to accept that asertion is true without hearing for myself what specific things are being claimed to be antisemitic.
I have absolutely no doubt at all that there is a horrifying amount of antisemitism worldwide and in the left. I have absolutely no doubt that the antisemites are overjoyed that they can try to mainstream their bigotry in the guise of opposition to Israel's genocidal actions."
the VAST majority of antisemitic violent attacks in the West are perpetrated by the far-right. You can be extremely antisemitic and hate Jews with a passion---like Musk and John Hagee---but if you do that and also support Israel, you get a pretty big pass from both the ADL and mainstream political society.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
"And it's why when I hear people saying that "the left" is going antisemitic I'm increasingly unwilling to accept that asertion is true without hearing for myself what specific things are being claimed to be antisemitic.
I have absolutely no doubt at all that there is a horrifying amount of antisemitism worldwide and in the left. I have absolutely no doubt that the antisemites are overjoyed that they can try to mainstream their bigotry in the guise of opposition to Israel's genocidal actions."
the VAST majority of antisemitic violent attacks in the West are perpetrated by the far-right. You can be extremely antisemitic and hate Jews with a passion---like Musk and John Hagee---but if you do that and also support Israel, you get a pretty big pass from both the ADL and mainstream political society.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
Uh, yeah, I'm going to need some citations on that one
I see that a new post means we are back to square zero on the antisemitism debate.
What kind of evidence would satisfy you that antisemitism exists on the left? One manifestation, out of many, is that people in leftist places, like Metafilter, are demanding that leftist Jews, no matter how critical of Israel they are, no matter what they say and do to support the Palestinian cause, must prove over and over to each individual that antisemitism exists. Imagine making this demand of any other minority group. The ADL does not speak for me, nor for any of the other MeFites who have been taking part in these threads and providing this evidence.
Some people are overstating claims about antisemitism in a way that silences anti-Zionism. By making demands for proof from any Jewish MeFites who ever dare to say that antisemitism exists on the left, you are accusing us of being bad faith actors. Demands for proof every time anyone mentions antisemitism means Jews must either constantly be doing the work of convincing people antisemitism exists, or else be silent. If we want to be welcome here or in any leftist space, we must either swallow antisemitism, or constantly convince people who are not attuned to antisemitism or inclined to see it that it does in fact exist. If you want to see the citations, read the previous threads. I for one am tired of having to repeatedly justify my lived experience.
posted by cosmic owl at 8:34 AM on November 29, 2023 [22 favorites]
I see that a new post means we are back to square zero on the antisemitism debate.
What kind of evidence would satisfy you that antisemitism exists on the left? One manifestation, out of many, is that people in leftist places, like Metafilter, are demanding that leftist Jews, no matter how critical of Israel they are, no matter what they say and do to support the Palestinian cause, must prove over and over to each individual that antisemitism exists. Imagine making this demand of any other minority group. The ADL does not speak for me, nor for any of the other MeFites who have been taking part in these threads and providing this evidence.
Some people are overstating claims about antisemitism in a way that silences anti-Zionism. By making demands for proof from any Jewish MeFites who ever dare to say that antisemitism exists on the left, you are accusing us of being bad faith actors. Demands for proof every time anyone mentions antisemitism means Jews must either constantly be doing the work of convincing people antisemitism exists, or else be silent. If we want to be welcome here or in any leftist space, we must either swallow antisemitism, or constantly convince people who are not attuned to antisemitism or inclined to see it that it does in fact exist. If you want to see the citations, read the previous threads. I for one am tired of having to repeatedly justify my lived experience.
posted by cosmic owl at 8:34 AM on November 29, 2023 [22 favorites]
My current understanding is that the existence of secure bunkers under Al Shifa has been established and was expected because Israeli architects designed and the Israeli’s built them during the 1980s. This included a secure operating room. Air raid shelters and safe rooms fairly common as part of public infrastructure in Israel/Palestine. There also appears to be evidence provided by organizations like Amnesty International of past use of buildings and facilities by Hamas’ military during previous conflicts as summarized in this NY Time Article.
What is unclear is the extent to which the bunkers were expanded by Hamas and integrated into the so called Gaza metro. It is also unclear they were used as a command center. There was some fighting in the hospital grounds, so there probably was some Hamas presence at the hospital.
Israel has detained Mohammed Abu Salmiya the director of Al Shifa Hospital.
posted by interogative mood at 8:38 AM on November 29, 2023
What is unclear is the extent to which the bunkers were expanded by Hamas and integrated into the so called Gaza metro. It is also unclear they were used as a command center. There was some fighting in the hospital grounds, so there probably was some Hamas presence at the hospital.
Israel has detained Mohammed Abu Salmiya the director of Al Shifa Hospital.
posted by interogative mood at 8:38 AM on November 29, 2023
To add a little more perspective before I take a long break from this site: there's a tweet that has lived rent-free in my head since October 7th.
"what did y'all think decolonization meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers."
This was posted at noon ET on October 7th, when Israelis were still in the process of being slaughtered en masse. It got 100,000 likes. I don't owe it to you or anyone to repeatedly expose myself to this rhetoric, to collect every instance, in order to justify existing in pro-Palestinian spaces as someone who supports Palestinian liberation.
If anyone is genuinely interested in educating themselves, an anonymous internet person has put together a very thoughtful document collecting readings about the difficulties of existing as a Jew on the left. If the testimony of leftist Jews isn't enough, then this won't be either. But it's a great starting place for anyone with a truly open mind.
posted by cosmic owl at 8:49 AM on November 29, 2023 [28 favorites]
"what did y'all think decolonization meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers."
This was posted at noon ET on October 7th, when Israelis were still in the process of being slaughtered en masse. It got 100,000 likes. I don't owe it to you or anyone to repeatedly expose myself to this rhetoric, to collect every instance, in order to justify existing in pro-Palestinian spaces as someone who supports Palestinian liberation.
If anyone is genuinely interested in educating themselves, an anonymous internet person has put together a very thoughtful document collecting readings about the difficulties of existing as a Jew on the left. If the testimony of leftist Jews isn't enough, then this won't be either. But it's a great starting place for anyone with a truly open mind.
posted by cosmic owl at 8:49 AM on November 29, 2023 [28 favorites]
cosmic owl For very selfish reasons I hope you stay, your comments are insightful and informational so they benefit me. I also hope nothing I've said is contributory to your feeling of alienation or being in hostile territory.
Obviously your wellbeing and mental health comes first. For what it's worth, I wish you well.
posted by sotonohito at 8:58 AM on November 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Obviously your wellbeing and mental health comes first. For what it's worth, I wish you well.
posted by sotonohito at 8:58 AM on November 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Dip Flash IIRC the timeline went something like this:
That whole "timeline" is irrelevant. People (including here in this thread) are repeating unsubstantiated claims that the explosion was done by the IDF, that early reporting was wrong or was a malicious cover up, etc. My point is that there are serious investigations that have not come to that conclusion, so if you (general you, not you specifically) are going to repeat those claims, it is incumbent to point to some actual evidence. Or, since that evidence doesn't currently exist, just stop repeating unsubstantiated claims.
Like I said, there is a lot to be mad about that is actually real, including how both the IDF and Hamas put hospitals at risk rather than doing everything possible to keep them operating. I'm specifically requesting (or really, hoping, since my request here carries no weight) that people stop with the breathless reporting of unsubstantiated horrible things, given that there are enough substantiated horrible things to be justifiably mad about.
A few days later Isreal bombed the fuck out of the hospital,
Like this -- this just isn't true. If they did, they would have used the same 1000-2000 pound bombs that they've been using all over Gaza that level entire buildings. They didn't even use the small 500 pound bombs that the US keeps urging that they switch to. This just didn't happen. Repeating fictional claims (and in these threads, most commonly it is repeating Hamas's (or Hamas sympathizers') fictional claims) detracts from the true parts, that are worth being mad about and working to stop.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:13 AM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
That whole "timeline" is irrelevant. People (including here in this thread) are repeating unsubstantiated claims that the explosion was done by the IDF, that early reporting was wrong or was a malicious cover up, etc. My point is that there are serious investigations that have not come to that conclusion, so if you (general you, not you specifically) are going to repeat those claims, it is incumbent to point to some actual evidence. Or, since that evidence doesn't currently exist, just stop repeating unsubstantiated claims.
Like I said, there is a lot to be mad about that is actually real, including how both the IDF and Hamas put hospitals at risk rather than doing everything possible to keep them operating. I'm specifically requesting (or really, hoping, since my request here carries no weight) that people stop with the breathless reporting of unsubstantiated horrible things, given that there are enough substantiated horrible things to be justifiably mad about.
A few days later Isreal bombed the fuck out of the hospital,
Like this -- this just isn't true. If they did, they would have used the same 1000-2000 pound bombs that they've been using all over Gaza that level entire buildings. They didn't even use the small 500 pound bombs that the US keeps urging that they switch to. This just didn't happen. Repeating fictional claims (and in these threads, most commonly it is repeating Hamas's (or Hamas sympathizers') fictional claims) detracts from the true parts, that are worth being mad about and working to stop.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:13 AM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
How to balance the twin certainties that there is genuine antisemitism happening and that the watchdogs who are supposed to call that out are compromised and no longer to be trusted?
That is a question I have also been thinking about, and I don't think there is an easy fix, but I've found the most thoughtful voices during this conflict have been either Israelis with deep ties to Palestinians or Palestinians with deep ties to Israelis, who have long been involved in the work of dialogue across the I/P divide. These are the voices that should be platformed right now, and such organizations that should receive funding.
I also have been thinking about how it's clear that for many people, the bar for something counting as antisemitism is high - in their minds, antisemitism is shouting "The Jews will not replace us" or shooting up a temple. And because such events are thankfully pretty rare, my sense is that many people think antisemitism is rare - hence the trend I've seen of quick dismissals of Jewish college students claiming to be scared as "cry-babies" or that the fear is just manufactured by pro-Israel propaganda. What that gets wrong isn't the fact that pro-Israel propaganda seeks to exaggerate that fear – it obviously does that – but it misses a key reason why pro-Israeli propaganda is so effective that just like the hashtag #YesAllWomen came about because it's impossible to be a woman and not experience misogyny (even if not all men engage in it), all American Jews experience antisemitism. Ignoring this fact is just bad politics - just like trying to minimize the horror of Oct 7 is bad politics, or minimizing the evidence we have that the hostages faced a terrible situation is bad politics. I don't see how this does anything for the Palestinian cause but hurt it. And assuming people who make this argument are "pro-Israel" is also not helpful* - assuming American Jews are Zionists just because they are capable of seeing Israelis as humans worthy of empathy is also not helpful (and pretty antisemitic).
Unlike a lot on the left, I didn't boycott the opportunity to go on a Birthright trip because a) free travel! and b) I figured if not me, likely someone more susceptible to Israeli propaganda. So I went. It was a disturbing experience in a number of ways, but I don't regret going. One of the disturbing bits was seeing just how effective the propaganda was - I have never felt emotional manipulation so deeply. The evening after visiting Yan Vashem (Holocaust museum in Jerusalem), the whole group (roughly 30 of us, I think) was invited to share a time they experienced antisemitism. Everyone was able to - and it was a fairly secular group, so for many of us this wasn't even based on being visibly Jewish but just the fact of our name. Which is all to say, while I think we can and should push against the ADL's approach, if you do so in a way that denies or underplays antisemitism, you play into their hands whether you realize it or not.
Perhaps this will seem like a derail, but at this stage I'd like to advocate that these threads should serve both as a way to keep up on events and for users to talk about how it is we talk about this issue. Also just a reminder, but so far everyone participating in this thread has made clear in other threads that they are very critical of Netanyahu's government - there are differences of opinion here, but we are less far apart than some people seem to think.
posted by coffeecat at 9:52 AM on November 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
That is a question I have also been thinking about, and I don't think there is an easy fix, but I've found the most thoughtful voices during this conflict have been either Israelis with deep ties to Palestinians or Palestinians with deep ties to Israelis, who have long been involved in the work of dialogue across the I/P divide. These are the voices that should be platformed right now, and such organizations that should receive funding.
I also have been thinking about how it's clear that for many people, the bar for something counting as antisemitism is high - in their minds, antisemitism is shouting "The Jews will not replace us" or shooting up a temple. And because such events are thankfully pretty rare, my sense is that many people think antisemitism is rare - hence the trend I've seen of quick dismissals of Jewish college students claiming to be scared as "cry-babies" or that the fear is just manufactured by pro-Israel propaganda. What that gets wrong isn't the fact that pro-Israel propaganda seeks to exaggerate that fear – it obviously does that – but it misses a key reason why pro-Israeli propaganda is so effective that just like the hashtag #YesAllWomen came about because it's impossible to be a woman and not experience misogyny (even if not all men engage in it), all American Jews experience antisemitism. Ignoring this fact is just bad politics - just like trying to minimize the horror of Oct 7 is bad politics, or minimizing the evidence we have that the hostages faced a terrible situation is bad politics. I don't see how this does anything for the Palestinian cause but hurt it. And assuming people who make this argument are "pro-Israel" is also not helpful* - assuming American Jews are Zionists just because they are capable of seeing Israelis as humans worthy of empathy is also not helpful (and pretty antisemitic).
Unlike a lot on the left, I didn't boycott the opportunity to go on a Birthright trip because a) free travel! and b) I figured if not me, likely someone more susceptible to Israeli propaganda. So I went. It was a disturbing experience in a number of ways, but I don't regret going. One of the disturbing bits was seeing just how effective the propaganda was - I have never felt emotional manipulation so deeply. The evening after visiting Yan Vashem (Holocaust museum in Jerusalem), the whole group (roughly 30 of us, I think) was invited to share a time they experienced antisemitism. Everyone was able to - and it was a fairly secular group, so for many of us this wasn't even based on being visibly Jewish but just the fact of our name. Which is all to say, while I think we can and should push against the ADL's approach, if you do so in a way that denies or underplays antisemitism, you play into their hands whether you realize it or not.
Perhaps this will seem like a derail, but at this stage I'd like to advocate that these threads should serve both as a way to keep up on events and for users to talk about how it is we talk about this issue. Also just a reminder, but so far everyone participating in this thread has made clear in other threads that they are very critical of Netanyahu's government - there are differences of opinion here, but we are less far apart than some people seem to think.
posted by coffeecat at 9:52 AM on November 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
For myself and a growing number of fellow Jews, this isn't a particularly "hard time to be a Jew on the Left" in and of itself. We are availing ourselves of the opportunity to join, in solidarity, a movement aligned with our values against colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Just another perspective.
posted by dusty potato at 9:56 AM on November 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 9:56 AM on November 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
A key piece here is that there are many, many different lefts - obviously there are different organizations, but there are also different subcultures, communities, regions, etc.
It's not like there are "good" social circles where no one would ever say or do anything biased and "bad" social circles where biased remarks and actions are constant, but I've absolutely noticed over the years that people might describe something great about "the left" and I'd think "wow, not the people I know" or describe something bad about "the left" and I'd think "gee, as, eg, a queer person, I have never noticed that kind of homophobia".
I think it is very possible and likely that some left organizations or subcultures tolerate some kinds of anti-semitism either out of ignorance (for things that aren't overt that might be overlooked in ignorance) or out of actual anti-semitic sympathies and at the same time, other left organizations do not tolerate overt anti-semitism and work to eliminate ignorant anti-semitism when they are aware of it. This might be as striking as, eg, two similar marxist organizations in two different cities being very different because of differences in history and composition.
There is "the left" in the sense that there are groups who share some defined values and concerns, but there really isn't "the left" in the sense that there is a unified culture among those people.
I'm only bringing this up here because I think "is the left anti-semitic" is a question that can't be answered in that form, and just results in people attacking each other's real, lived experience.
posted by Frowner at 10:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
It's not like there are "good" social circles where no one would ever say or do anything biased and "bad" social circles where biased remarks and actions are constant, but I've absolutely noticed over the years that people might describe something great about "the left" and I'd think "wow, not the people I know" or describe something bad about "the left" and I'd think "gee, as, eg, a queer person, I have never noticed that kind of homophobia".
I think it is very possible and likely that some left organizations or subcultures tolerate some kinds of anti-semitism either out of ignorance (for things that aren't overt that might be overlooked in ignorance) or out of actual anti-semitic sympathies and at the same time, other left organizations do not tolerate overt anti-semitism and work to eliminate ignorant anti-semitism when they are aware of it. This might be as striking as, eg, two similar marxist organizations in two different cities being very different because of differences in history and composition.
There is "the left" in the sense that there are groups who share some defined values and concerns, but there really isn't "the left" in the sense that there is a unified culture among those people.
I'm only bringing this up here because I think "is the left anti-semitic" is a question that can't be answered in that form, and just results in people attacking each other's real, lived experience.
posted by Frowner at 10:32 AM on November 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
This was how the organising body for pro-Palestine marches in Scotland responded to Hamas' October 7 terror attacks: "SPSC welcomes the remarkable gains made by the Palestinian resistance in re-taking land occupied since 1948."
posted by Klipspringer at 10:34 AM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Klipspringer at 10:34 AM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
This was how the organising body for pro-Palestine marches in Scotland responded to Hamas' October 7 terror attacks: "SPSC welcomes the remarkable gains made by the Palestinian resistance in re-taking land occupied since 1948."
My response to this is: this is on the same moral plane as supporting the IDF, which is an organization actively perpetrating a genocide and has killed thousands of children in the past month or so. The IDF has 1) my tax dollars 2) the public and private and material support of the US government 3) nukes and 4) supporters in the west who suffer no personal or professional consequences.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:40 AM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
My response to this is: this is on the same moral plane as supporting the IDF, which is an organization actively perpetrating a genocide and has killed thousands of children in the past month or so. The IDF has 1) my tax dollars 2) the public and private and material support of the US government 3) nukes and 4) supporters in the west who suffer no personal or professional consequences.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:40 AM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
There is literally no statement supporting Israelis being killed that some people wouldn't be able to minimise or play "what-about" on, is there.
posted by Klipspringer at 10:44 AM on November 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Klipspringer at 10:44 AM on November 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
How is saying that support for Hamas is the same level of immorality as supporting an organization that is actively engaged in a genocide somehow pro-Hamas? They're as bad as genociders!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:47 AM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:47 AM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've not read a number of the entries in these threads because, frankly, the subject is painful and even the well-meaning discussion is problematic and contributes to the pain.
Maybe someone else has already said this here, but I see one problem in discussing the various aspects of this topic is that words not only have the meaning you intend, but the meaning given to them by the reader.
"From the river to the sea" can be a reasonable expression of "freedom everywhere." It can have different meanings to others reading/hearing or even pronouncing it. Communicators are not only responsible for what is meant: they are responsible to choose words that don't become ambiguous and which don't have unwieldy connotations.
Using the terms "Palestinian problem" or "Jewish problem" are similarly problematic (or maybe more so). I think those who want to have an honest or healing dialogue have to respect this.
Speech is difficult to self-police, being composed on the fly. We can be careful with our writing.
I have seen good faith pronouncements on this board and in the news that unintentionally trounce on people's emotions in this highly-wrought issue.
It is ugly enough to have the bad faith people out there. There is plenty enough to divide and hurt us. Compose carefully.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:59 AM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Maybe someone else has already said this here, but I see one problem in discussing the various aspects of this topic is that words not only have the meaning you intend, but the meaning given to them by the reader.
"From the river to the sea" can be a reasonable expression of "freedom everywhere." It can have different meanings to others reading/hearing or even pronouncing it. Communicators are not only responsible for what is meant: they are responsible to choose words that don't become ambiguous and which don't have unwieldy connotations.
Using the terms "Palestinian problem" or "Jewish problem" are similarly problematic (or maybe more so). I think those who want to have an honest or healing dialogue have to respect this.
Speech is difficult to self-police, being composed on the fly. We can be careful with our writing.
I have seen good faith pronouncements on this board and in the news that unintentionally trounce on people's emotions in this highly-wrought issue.
It is ugly enough to have the bad faith people out there. There is plenty enough to divide and hurt us. Compose carefully.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:59 AM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed, let's avoid metaphors about sucking someone's cock, these can come across as homophobic/offensive.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:28 AM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:28 AM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
The ADL
The ADL exists to accuse Israel's critics of antisemitism, not to combat actual antisemitism. See for instance Jonathan Greenblatt sucking up to antisemite Elon Musk after Musk promist to ban expressions of support for Palestinians on Twitter.
*Rewritten, but it was supposed to be offensive; Greenblatt is an odious toad.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:39 AM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
The ADL exists to accuse Israel's critics of antisemitism, not to combat actual antisemitism. See for instance Jonathan Greenblatt sucking up to antisemite Elon Musk after Musk promist to ban expressions of support for Palestinians on Twitter.
*Rewritten, but it was supposed to be offensive; Greenblatt is an odious toad.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:39 AM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
This was how the organising body for pro-Palestine marches in Scotland responded to Hamas' October 7 terror attacks: "SPSC welcomes the remarkable gains made by the Palestinian resistance in re-taking land occupied since 1948."
Almost a decade and a half ago now, I was an antiwar soldier during the Iraq War. I remember viscerally being at a meeting, where someone stood up and said something to the effect of, "The Iraqi people have the right to resist, and I hope they kill more American soldiers, so that the US pulls out soon and we stop killing more people in Iraq."
I did not take it well at the time; if memory serves, people had to grab me; I had a quicker temper then.
But as I got older, I've come to understand that while the statement was tasteless, in a crowd full of people who included soldiers who had lost friends in Iraq, it wasn't wrong from that person's perspective; they believed that a right to self determination included the right of violent resistance, including guerilla resistance, and they believed that in a utilitarian analysis, several thousand more dead soldiers were better than hundreds of thousands more dead Iraqis.
I feel, from the perspective of age, very similarly about a lot of such statements about the Hamas attacks. I think that celebrating a military victory which includes clear war crimes is tasteless, especially in a crowd of people that include people who have an inherent right to Israeli citizenship and think "That could have been me, if I had taken the right of return, that could have been me" - but if you believe that the right to self determination includes the right of violent resistance, including guerilla resistance, and that a free Palestine will save the life of hundreds of thousands of Gazans, not inherently flawed.
And this is the problem with the discussion of antisemitism and the discussion of Israel. Personally, I don't think those statements, while in my belief wrong (I'm not a utilitarian, I think the way you win matters) rise to the level of antisemitic, any more than it was anti-Russian Orthodox when people were cheering for Ukraine some time ago and celebrating their victories over Russian troops - who happened, by and large, to be Russian Orthodox. But others clearly do - the other example upthread also included an example of support for the Oct 7 attacks as an example of antisemitism. And I don't think that's fair - it's an expression of support for one side of a war. As someone else said - is it Islamophobia when someone says they support the IDF?
posted by corb at 11:52 AM on November 29, 2023 [36 favorites]
Almost a decade and a half ago now, I was an antiwar soldier during the Iraq War. I remember viscerally being at a meeting, where someone stood up and said something to the effect of, "The Iraqi people have the right to resist, and I hope they kill more American soldiers, so that the US pulls out soon and we stop killing more people in Iraq."
I did not take it well at the time; if memory serves, people had to grab me; I had a quicker temper then.
But as I got older, I've come to understand that while the statement was tasteless, in a crowd full of people who included soldiers who had lost friends in Iraq, it wasn't wrong from that person's perspective; they believed that a right to self determination included the right of violent resistance, including guerilla resistance, and they believed that in a utilitarian analysis, several thousand more dead soldiers were better than hundreds of thousands more dead Iraqis.
I feel, from the perspective of age, very similarly about a lot of such statements about the Hamas attacks. I think that celebrating a military victory which includes clear war crimes is tasteless, especially in a crowd of people that include people who have an inherent right to Israeli citizenship and think "That could have been me, if I had taken the right of return, that could have been me" - but if you believe that the right to self determination includes the right of violent resistance, including guerilla resistance, and that a free Palestine will save the life of hundreds of thousands of Gazans, not inherently flawed.
And this is the problem with the discussion of antisemitism and the discussion of Israel. Personally, I don't think those statements, while in my belief wrong (I'm not a utilitarian, I think the way you win matters) rise to the level of antisemitic, any more than it was anti-Russian Orthodox when people were cheering for Ukraine some time ago and celebrating their victories over Russian troops - who happened, by and large, to be Russian Orthodox. But others clearly do - the other example upthread also included an example of support for the Oct 7 attacks as an example of antisemitism. And I don't think that's fair - it's an expression of support for one side of a war. As someone else said - is it Islamophobia when someone says they support the IDF?
posted by corb at 11:52 AM on November 29, 2023 [36 favorites]
Corb I agree with your general point, but would also add that an important distinction here is that neither Hamas nor IDF are only targeting military targets but are intentionally killing civilians. If a Hamas fighter kills an IDF soldier that is invading Gaza, thats obviously legitimate, but its another thing if they intentionally target civilians, like they did on 10/7.
I think consistently condemning the killing of civilians is so so important, especially after the IDF has killed ~/nearly ten thousand of them in the span of a couple weeks.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
I think consistently condemning the killing of civilians is so so important, especially after the IDF has killed ~/nearly ten thousand of them in the span of a couple weeks.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
Deliberately killing babies and toddlers and teenagers at a music festival and civilian men and women and pensioners — looking them right in the eye, stabbing them, shooting them, burning their bodies, then ringing your father to boast that "I killed 10 Jews today" — cannot be explained away as "guerrilla resistance".
posted by Klipspringer at 12:21 PM on November 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Klipspringer at 12:21 PM on November 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
I think consistently condemning the killing of civilians is so so important, especially after the IDF has killed ~/nearly ten thousand of them in the span of a couple weeks.
Over ten thousand unless you accept the Israeli formulation that any male over a certain age is a fighter (in which case one could make the same argument about Israelis of conscriptable age, and the lines around who exactly counts as a "civilian" get a lot blurrier).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:23 PM on November 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Over ten thousand unless you accept the Israeli formulation that any male over a certain age is a fighter (in which case one could make the same argument about Israelis of conscriptable age, and the lines around who exactly counts as a "civilian" get a lot blurrier).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:23 PM on November 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is anyone here literally explaining away the horrifying attack on and murder of Israeli civilians? I don’t see that. This is not the SPSC. As best I can tell, no one here is applauding the Israeli deaths, the hostage taking, or the brutality of the attackers. It was horrible. It continues to be horrible. All of us here in this MetaFilter thread appear to agree on that.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:58 PM on November 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:58 PM on November 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Deliberately killing babies and toddlers and teenagers at a music festival and civilian men and women and pensioners — looking them right in the eye, stabbing them, shooting them, burning their bodies, then ringing your father to boast that "I killed 10 Jews today" — cannot be explained away as "guerrilla resistance".
I think the difference between our perspectives is that I and most others on the pro-Palestinian left believe that the IDF is every bit as evil as Hamas and every bit as unforgivably violent and criminal. In my view and those of most of the folks I've been organizing with through Jewish Voice for Peace and other allied orgs, defending the IDF on any level is fundamentally racist, Islamophobic and anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian and morally equivalent to defending Hamas and if you are American, rather worse, given we are actively complicit in the IDF's crimes.
I think the kind of Hamas apologism that you occasionally witness coming from groups like SJP (mostly SJP--and I think a lot of that comes from the fact that a lot of these organizers are kids and prone to extremism/leftist virtue signaling) comes from a frustration at the hypocrisy that Hamas and the IDF are not viewed as morally equivalent by most liberals/centrists. Zionists don't have to preface any position on the crisis in Gaza with a performative disavowal of the IDF to keep their jobs but anti-Zionists (and even pro-ceasefire organizers who are not anti-Zionists) are required to condemn Hamas before they so much as breathe. And it's frustrating and hypocritical and that kind of hypocrisy breeds the kinds of extreme rhetoric that I've seen (very rarely!) from some organizers. I think the Hamas apologism is ugly and a profound tactical error but I wanted to give some background on where this tendency comes from among leftist anti-Zionist organizers as someone who is one of them.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [29 favorites]
I think the difference between our perspectives is that I and most others on the pro-Palestinian left believe that the IDF is every bit as evil as Hamas and every bit as unforgivably violent and criminal. In my view and those of most of the folks I've been organizing with through Jewish Voice for Peace and other allied orgs, defending the IDF on any level is fundamentally racist, Islamophobic and anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian and morally equivalent to defending Hamas and if you are American, rather worse, given we are actively complicit in the IDF's crimes.
I think the kind of Hamas apologism that you occasionally witness coming from groups like SJP (mostly SJP--and I think a lot of that comes from the fact that a lot of these organizers are kids and prone to extremism/leftist virtue signaling) comes from a frustration at the hypocrisy that Hamas and the IDF are not viewed as morally equivalent by most liberals/centrists. Zionists don't have to preface any position on the crisis in Gaza with a performative disavowal of the IDF to keep their jobs but anti-Zionists (and even pro-ceasefire organizers who are not anti-Zionists) are required to condemn Hamas before they so much as breathe. And it's frustrating and hypocritical and that kind of hypocrisy breeds the kinds of extreme rhetoric that I've seen (very rarely!) from some organizers. I think the Hamas apologism is ugly and a profound tactical error but I wanted to give some background on where this tendency comes from among leftist anti-Zionist organizers as someone who is one of them.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [29 favorites]
cannot be explained away as "guerrilla resistance"
you've made your position clear. I'm not sure what words are equal to the task of responding to these acts: murderous; criminal; monstrous
the history and experiences of enough Palestinians leads to a man doing these acts and ringing his father to, as you put it, boast of what he has done. We don't point to that history and those experiences to apologize, condone, or excuse the acts, but we don't pretend the history and experiences are irrelevant. What would bring me to slaughter others, then look to share what I'd done in such a manner? And note: call my father, because it goes without saying that he will, if not rejoice with me: not call me a murderer, a criminal, a monster. How the hell does that happen?
Viet Nam, Ireland, indeed the founding of modern Israel: should we scrupulously examine all the deeds to determine which can be "explained" as acceptable guerilla resistance? The title of this post features "Ceasefire" and pause in killing is all we could ask for
posted by elkevelvet at 1:06 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
you've made your position clear. I'm not sure what words are equal to the task of responding to these acts: murderous; criminal; monstrous
the history and experiences of enough Palestinians leads to a man doing these acts and ringing his father to, as you put it, boast of what he has done. We don't point to that history and those experiences to apologize, condone, or excuse the acts, but we don't pretend the history and experiences are irrelevant. What would bring me to slaughter others, then look to share what I'd done in such a manner? And note: call my father, because it goes without saying that he will, if not rejoice with me: not call me a murderer, a criminal, a monster. How the hell does that happen?
Viet Nam, Ireland, indeed the founding of modern Israel: should we scrupulously examine all the deeds to determine which can be "explained" as acceptable guerilla resistance? The title of this post features "Ceasefire" and pause in killing is all we could ask for
posted by elkevelvet at 1:06 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Deliberately killing babies and toddlers and teenagers at a music festival and civilian men and women and pensioners — looking them right in the eye, stabbing them, shooting them, burning their bodies, then ringing your father to boast that "I killed 10 Jews today" — cannot be explained away as "guerrilla resistance
I said war crimes and I meant war crimes. I do not support war crimes. No one is saying they support war crimes. What I am saying is that the commission of war crimes does not make a force any less a military force - equally as legitimate (and illegitimate) as the other military forces throughout the globe that have done the same. Including, for what it's worth noting, the United States.
Content warning is below for war crimes.
.
.
.
War crimes committed by US military, which I think we would all agree is a military force:
..in the Phillippines, where they killed hundreds of women and children who fled to a sacred site for safety, as well as being orders to kill everyone over 10 years old.
..in Haiti, where US Marines tortured people and shot prisoners
...in WWII across Europe and Asia, where they raped their way across continents
...in Korea, where US forces bombed civilian refugees
My Lai. For fuck's sake, My Lai. My Lai, where the person who tried to save the women and children being butchered got death threats for years, and they made a song about the guy who killed them that sold a fucking million copies.
And you all remember the Iraq War. I hope. There were massacres of civilians big and small. At Fallujah. Haditha. Nisour Square.
And yet people go to Veterans' Day parades and wave little American flags and thank me for my fucking service while I want to vomit in my mouth, and somehow they aren't condemned for being bigoted against the people that people under our flag butchered.
posted by corb at 1:10 PM on November 29, 2023 [45 favorites]
I said war crimes and I meant war crimes. I do not support war crimes. No one is saying they support war crimes. What I am saying is that the commission of war crimes does not make a force any less a military force - equally as legitimate (and illegitimate) as the other military forces throughout the globe that have done the same. Including, for what it's worth noting, the United States.
Content warning is below for war crimes.
.
.
.
War crimes committed by US military, which I think we would all agree is a military force:
..in the Phillippines, where they killed hundreds of women and children who fled to a sacred site for safety, as well as being orders to kill everyone over 10 years old.
..in Haiti, where US Marines tortured people and shot prisoners
...in WWII across Europe and Asia, where they raped their way across continents
...in Korea, where US forces bombed civilian refugees
My Lai. For fuck's sake, My Lai. My Lai, where the person who tried to save the women and children being butchered got death threats for years, and they made a song about the guy who killed them that sold a fucking million copies.
And you all remember the Iraq War. I hope. There were massacres of civilians big and small. At Fallujah. Haditha. Nisour Square.
And yet people go to Veterans' Day parades and wave little American flags and thank me for my fucking service while I want to vomit in my mouth, and somehow they aren't condemned for being bigoted against the people that people under our flag butchered.
posted by corb at 1:10 PM on November 29, 2023 [45 favorites]
I said war crimes and I meant war crimes.
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but to me it seems painfully clear that the Oct. 7 attacks were terrorism, not war crimes. The casual equation of Hamas and the IDF in comments above also seems, again to me, as so obviously wrong and simpleminded that I'm not quite sure how to respond other than just indicating a lack of agreement and letting it sit with that.
I guess my point here is just that people are stating things very assertively as facts that are not necessarily actually facts, and the louder and more assertive those statements get, the more you close out discussion and understanding.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:46 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but to me it seems painfully clear that the Oct. 7 attacks were terrorism, not war crimes. The casual equation of Hamas and the IDF in comments above also seems, again to me, as so obviously wrong and simpleminded that I'm not quite sure how to respond other than just indicating a lack of agreement and letting it sit with that.
I guess my point here is just that people are stating things very assertively as facts that are not necessarily actually facts, and the louder and more assertive those statements get, the more you close out discussion and understanding.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:46 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I only just within the past couple of weeks learned that Israel, as a country, has no actual constitution.
Neither does the UK, if the proles don't have any rights in the first place, they can't complain when the government of the day turns against them.
posted by Lanark at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Neither does the UK, if the proles don't have any rights in the first place, they can't complain when the government of the day turns against them.
posted by Lanark at 1:47 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but to me it seems painfully clear that the Oct. 7 attacks were terrorism, not war crimes. The casual equation of Hamas and the IDF in comments above also seems, again to me, as so obviously wrong and simpleminded that I'm not quite sure how to respond other than just indicating a lack of agreement and letting it sit with that.
Dip Flash, can I ask you to expound on this a bit? I think for a lot of people, the casual equating is just, who are the two armed organizations guilty of killing civilians? An additional aspect of the casual equating is, at this point what is the material difference between Hamas terrorism and Israeli war crimes?--both are guilty of illegal violence against innocents for political ends, the main difference being the scale of the IDF's operations and the scale of fatalities. But again, that's a difference of scale more than category.
I think that whenever there is an issue of state military violence versus organized terrorism, people naturally tend toward thinking that the distinction between terrorism and a war crime is splitting hairs, in terms of the suffering caused, and the illegitimacy of the campaign of violence. One side's violence is on behalf of a state, one side's is on behalf of the governing body of a stateless people. But from a moral level the category distinction starts to seem unimportant. So I ask not as a gotcha but as a genuine question.
posted by kensington314 at 2:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dip Flash, can I ask you to expound on this a bit? I think for a lot of people, the casual equating is just, who are the two armed organizations guilty of killing civilians? An additional aspect of the casual equating is, at this point what is the material difference between Hamas terrorism and Israeli war crimes?--both are guilty of illegal violence against innocents for political ends, the main difference being the scale of the IDF's operations and the scale of fatalities. But again, that's a difference of scale more than category.
I think that whenever there is an issue of state military violence versus organized terrorism, people naturally tend toward thinking that the distinction between terrorism and a war crime is splitting hairs, in terms of the suffering caused, and the illegitimacy of the campaign of violence. One side's violence is on behalf of a state, one side's is on behalf of the governing body of a stateless people. But from a moral level the category distinction starts to seem unimportant. So I ask not as a gotcha but as a genuine question.
posted by kensington314 at 2:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
To be honest, based on what I've seen here and elsewhere, the assumption is very much that if you only condemn one side in a post, you must therefore be boosting the other. If you talk about IDF atrocities the assumption is that you're pro-Hamas. If you talk about Hamas' atrocities, the assumption is you're pro-IDF.
If you're only seeing it going one way, you're in an echo chamber. And don't anybody try to claim otherwise; I lurk all over the place, on purpose, to see what people are doing outside my bubble, and the internet is composed almost entirely of echo chambers. You have to actively try to not be in them.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:16 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
If you're only seeing it going one way, you're in an echo chamber. And don't anybody try to claim otherwise; I lurk all over the place, on purpose, to see what people are doing outside my bubble, and the internet is composed almost entirely of echo chambers. You have to actively try to not be in them.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:16 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
the Oct. 7 attacks were terrorism, not war crimes
Hamas are the military arm of the government of Gaza, which is under siege and has been for over a decade and a half, and is internationally recognised as under occupation by Israel, the unilateral withdrawal of 2005 notwithstanding. Occupied people have a legitimate right of armed resistance (this legitimacy extends only to military targets, not civilian ones); this places the actions of 7 October in the category of "war crimes", not "terrorism". The only way you could plausibly argue that it's terrorism is by arguing that Hamas are not the military wing of the government of Gaza (which is untrue), or that Gaza isn't under Israeli occupation (also not true, see the ongoing siege/blockade).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:19 PM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Hamas are the military arm of the government of Gaza, which is under siege and has been for over a decade and a half, and is internationally recognised as under occupation by Israel, the unilateral withdrawal of 2005 notwithstanding. Occupied people have a legitimate right of armed resistance (this legitimacy extends only to military targets, not civilian ones); this places the actions of 7 October in the category of "war crimes", not "terrorism". The only way you could plausibly argue that it's terrorism is by arguing that Hamas are not the military wing of the government of Gaza (which is untrue), or that Gaza isn't under Israeli occupation (also not true, see the ongoing siege/blockade).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:19 PM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
... or that the the targets were not military. Which they weren't. Yep, terrorism.
posted by rouftop at 2:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rouftop at 2:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
or that the the targets were not military. Which they weren't.
Which makes it a war crime when committed by a military force, not terrorism (see: My Lai, Oradour-sur-Glane, etc).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:23 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Which makes it a war crime when committed by a military force, not terrorism (see: My Lai, Oradour-sur-Glane, etc).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:23 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
is Hamas part of the Geneva convention?
No
has the state of Palestine signed Geneva convention
yes.
Is Hamas the sole military arm of the Palestinian state.
no.
breaking the parameters of the Geneva convention are tanamount to terrorism or unrestricted warfare. intentionally using terror as a military tactic is not a military tactic in any conventional sense, it's called terrorism.
posted by clavdivs at 2:52 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
No
has the state of Palestine signed Geneva convention
yes.
Is Hamas the sole military arm of the Palestinian state.
no.
breaking the parameters of the Geneva convention are tanamount to terrorism or unrestricted warfare. intentionally using terror as a military tactic is not a military tactic in any conventional sense, it's called terrorism.
posted by clavdivs at 2:52 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
... or that the the targets were not military.
The last I've seen, 30% of the casualties on October 7 were military. Which as a bare number, is actually *better* than the IDF civilian/military casualties rate since then.
And that's without worrying about whether the IDF killed 10 or 100 of their own civilians as part of that.
The Israeli couple that hid their babies and fought, killing 7 Hamas fighters before they were killed, they aren't being counted as civilians, right? It says they were both IDF officers, but active duty? Either way, I don't think it's a war crime once the civilian has a gun.
Let alone if we started applying the same rules to Israel that Pseudonymous Cognomen mentioned as to who constitutes a valid target. Any man over what, 15? Since the IDF has such gender equality, presumably the women (girls) over 15 too. A mobile phone could be an IED trigger, so that counts as a gun... so on.
To be clear, I think the IDF probably *is* more concerned with civilian casualties than Hamas is. But those are all arguments about intent, and that's really difficult to prove and the disconnect between intent as decided by top brass and intent in the hands of the people holding the guns may be pretty significant on both sides.
As far as casualties go, it doesn't seem clear to me that Hamas is worse than the IDF, they're both happy to kill civilians, but more Israeli casualties are treated as intentional war crimes and more Palestinian casualties as acceptable collateral.
So, two militaries, both happy to do war crimes, both with different ideas about who qualifies as a civilian.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:55 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The last I've seen, 30% of the casualties on October 7 were military. Which as a bare number, is actually *better* than the IDF civilian/military casualties rate since then.
And that's without worrying about whether the IDF killed 10 or 100 of their own civilians as part of that.
The Israeli couple that hid their babies and fought, killing 7 Hamas fighters before they were killed, they aren't being counted as civilians, right? It says they were both IDF officers, but active duty? Either way, I don't think it's a war crime once the civilian has a gun.
Let alone if we started applying the same rules to Israel that Pseudonymous Cognomen mentioned as to who constitutes a valid target. Any man over what, 15? Since the IDF has such gender equality, presumably the women (girls) over 15 too. A mobile phone could be an IED trigger, so that counts as a gun... so on.
To be clear, I think the IDF probably *is* more concerned with civilian casualties than Hamas is. But those are all arguments about intent, and that's really difficult to prove and the disconnect between intent as decided by top brass and intent in the hands of the people holding the guns may be pretty significant on both sides.
As far as casualties go, it doesn't seem clear to me that Hamas is worse than the IDF, they're both happy to kill civilians, but more Israeli casualties are treated as intentional war crimes and more Palestinian casualties as acceptable collateral.
So, two militaries, both happy to do war crimes, both with different ideas about who qualifies as a civilian.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:55 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Financial Times on war crimes in the Israel-Gaza conflict (TL:DR is, yes, Hamas committed war crimes in hostage-taking and killing civilians). Calling it "terrorism" and not a war crime seems like a convenient way of delegitimising the very notion of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation and accepting the Israeli framing that there is no such thing as Palestine, therefore they can't have a military, and are merely terrorists and not engaged in resistance against occupation.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:00 PM on November 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:00 PM on November 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
A key reason why pro-Israeli propaganda is so effective that just like the hashtag #YesAllWomen came about because it's impossible to be a woman and not experience misogyny (even if not all men engage in it), all American Jews experience antisemitism.
coffeecat, while I appreciate your very thoughtful comment pushing for claims of anti-Semitism on the left to be taken seriously, I'd like to push back on this a little. From my perspective, one of the tricky things about this conversation is that a lot of American Jews don't experience anti-Semitism. For what ever reason, I've personally never been subjected to it: even when I loudly and openly talk about my Jewish identity, even when I do that in the middle of heated political discussions, it never comes my way. In fact, I've been accused of anti-Semitism by fellow American Jews far more than I've experienced even the lightest and most casual forms of anti-Semitism directly.
I suspect that this is not uncommon, and that a lot of Jewish people living in America simply don't draw anti-Semitic remarks for some reason. That's not to say that I think America's hunky-dory or anything, it just means that I'm personally inured from experiencing it targeted at me. I've never felt unsafe being open about my identity. Which means that my experience of the discussion surrounding this awful conflict has been that the accusations of anti-Semitism have meant less to me, and have more often felt like veiled ways of criticizing anti-Zionism than people genuinely pointing out an issue. That's not to say that that's the right perspective to have, and I appreciate both you and cosmic owl talking about this the way that you are. But I think it's probable that my experience is not unique, and that it's common enough that you have this phenomenon of Jewish people who don't feel directly targeted enough by anti-Semitism that they interpret pro-Israeli propaganda as solely bullshit, without being even slightly anchored to reality.
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but to me it seems painfully clear that the Oct. 7 attacks were terrorism, not war crimes. The casual equation of Hamas and the IDF in comments above also seems, again to me, as so obviously wrong and simpleminded that I'm not quite sure how to respond other than just indicating a lack of agreement and letting it sit with that.
I'm going to preface the thing I'm about to say with: personally, I'm flat-out horrified by the October 7 attacks. I find it really hard to let any amount of political theory or moral idealism sway me into being a fan of violence that targets innocent people. And while I understand the logic that all people living in Israel are complicit in a colonialist occupation—it's why I've actively avoided Birthright my whole life and could never bring myself to feel ethically okay with even visiting Israel—I can't get myself to shift from that to looking at the Hamas attacks and going, "Yes, this is what effective political action looks like." Period.
But I understand the logic of the people who are making that claim, even if I don't share it. The key points, I think, are that Israel has repeatedly responded to attempts at non-violent protests with brutal violence, gunning down innocent Palestinian protestors or using the most feeble claims to "violent action" as justification for merciless cruelty... and that on top of that, it has made active efforts to disempower and disenfranchise any attempt on the Palestinian people's part to form anti-occupation institutions that aren't Hamas, sometimes by actively empowering Hamas in order to give the radical terrorist organization supremacy over any movement that would oppose Israel in less extreme ways.
The point, as I understand it, is not to cheer Hamas on or to consider their tactics humane—it's to see Hamas as the inevitable end result of Israel's treatment of Palestine, not only in its treatment of the settlements but in the way that it actively suppresses any Palestinian right to have a voice that's not the big bad scary extremist organization who makes Israel look good by comparison. It's to acknowledge that some people in Israel's government welcomed this attack, because they wanted to have an excuse to dehumanize Palestinians enough in the world's eyes that they could inflict the kinds of carnal, sadistic violence on Palestinians that they actively fetishize. And even if you think of Hamas as evil, it's possible to lay the blame for that evil on the Israeli government treating that evil like it's convenient for them, or like it gives them opportunities to do things they wanted to do already.
I've been listening to a podcast about the history of Iraq, and it emphasizes the way in which America played a key part in establishing Saddam Hussein's government as a way of overthrowing a more pro-Communist one. It then focuses on how the Gulf War was manufactured as a way of targeting America's former ally, and largely for political convenience—and how much of America's approach to that war, and how much of its treatment of Iraq after the war, consisted of flagrant sadistic acts against Iraqi civilians, not only bombing but torturing and starving them en masse, and justifying it not with the terrible things that Saddam had done but by inventing terrible things that he hadn't. The recurring focus is on how America's foreign policy continually generates horrors that America then cites as justification for committing new horrific acts—how the history of our relationship with the Middle East can't be understood in isolation, because you can point to terrible people doing terrible things and try to make a both-sides argument that portrays America as morally ambiguous, until you look further back and see that America was the root cause of a lot of those terrible people and things in the first place.
It's hard not to look at Israel the same way. Israel's policy towards Palestine is unbelievably cruel and dehumanizing—and not only that, but they cite their need for "security" as a justification for just how inhumane their policies are. "Security" is why they wipe out Palestinian infrastructure, name any critic of Israel a terrorist, and actively interfere with Palestinian political processes to produce results that allow their brutality to continue. And one point that I've seen made over and over again is that, on one level, the October 7 attack has forever tarnished Netanyahu and his allies' claim that this cruelty is "worth it," that it alone can prevent atrocities from being committed against the Israeli people. Because if that brutality didn't stop this from happening, nothing will. And on some level, that makes Hamas's terrorist act an effective political decision, though I'm not convinced that the end result won't just be an ever-more-genocidal extermination of the Palestinian people.
(I mean that in the sense that 9/11 has also been called an extremely effective piece of political propaganda, and one that basically doomed America for decades, possibly forever. By which I mean that I know how to look at things that way, and I also do not fundamentally view the world in those terms. I find it hard to be so self-righteously anti-colonialism that I sneer at innocent people dying even as they're being slaughtered.)
Some people, I think, somewhat share that political assessment, and additionally are a lot more callous towards the Israeli people. Some of them are just fiery and angry and politically extreme; some ache so dearly for Palestine that it's hard for them to see Israel as anything but monstrous; some are just flat-out callous, and there's nothing more to read into their callousness. Some of those people go as far as to view Hamas as fundamentally justified in their actions, or even righteous. And there's undoubtedly an intersection between people who think that way about Hamas and people who are outright anti-Semitic, or a whole fuck of a lot more blasé about possible anti-Semitism than they ought to be. And whether or not they've shifted from hating Israel to hating Jewish people, I think it's pretty fair to call their support for Hamas disgusting or revisionist or outright offensive.
But it's tricky to paint things as black-and-white, and that's not just because pro-Israeli propaganda is so invested in establishing a binary world in which anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are one and the same. I think that anti-Semitism is a serious problem, and I believe that that includes a fuck of a lot of leftists. And I have also seen people say some pretty extreme things about October 7, things that rubbed me the wrong way or that I found outright appalling. But even those people aren't uniformly anti-Semitic, for all that quite a few of them cross that line. Israel's treatment of Palestine is awful on multiple layers, some of which are that it does very-arguably put its own citizens at risk in the name of giving themselves excuses to keep doing awful things with the world's support. I was horrified by October 7 and I can't bring myself to see it as a just or an excusable act. But I was also horrified by how many people, in the name of their Jewish identities, in the name of pushing back against anti-Semitism, jump right to referring to the Palestinian people as a whole as diseased animals who need to be put down. It's left me feeling profoundly unsettled to see Amy Schumer et al openly fantasizing about the horrible things that they'd like to see happen to Palestinians. And that's felt more visceral to me, and affected me more directly, than any anti-Semitism that I've seen surrounding this issue—not least because they're cheering for Palestinian deaths as the Palestinian people are being literally slaughtered.
Put another way: if we accept that what Hamas did is terrorism, then what is the line that the IDF would have to cross to be called terrorists? What's the line now, and what was the line before all this started, when they were mowing down non-violent protestors and committing acts of wanton aggression against innocent civilians? Does Israel's existence as a state mean that the IDF is incapable of committing terrorist acts? And if that's not the case, and if it's reasonable to say that the IDF is, in fact, capable of being a terrorist organization, then can't it be argued that the IDF is a worse terrorist organization than Hamas, both despite and because it has the authority to legitimize its own behaviors in a way that Hamas can't? I'm not sure that I personally arrive at that conclusion—I try to be aware of the depth of my own ignorance, and not conclude anything when I'm too dumb to reach conclusions—but at the very least, it feels like a valid argument to make, and a valid conclusion to arrive at.
(ON PREVIEW: the Financial Times' argument for why Hamas is guilty of war crimes and not terrorism feels like an important, and correct, point to make.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:14 PM on November 29, 2023 [39 favorites]
coffeecat, while I appreciate your very thoughtful comment pushing for claims of anti-Semitism on the left to be taken seriously, I'd like to push back on this a little. From my perspective, one of the tricky things about this conversation is that a lot of American Jews don't experience anti-Semitism. For what ever reason, I've personally never been subjected to it: even when I loudly and openly talk about my Jewish identity, even when I do that in the middle of heated political discussions, it never comes my way. In fact, I've been accused of anti-Semitism by fellow American Jews far more than I've experienced even the lightest and most casual forms of anti-Semitism directly.
I suspect that this is not uncommon, and that a lot of Jewish people living in America simply don't draw anti-Semitic remarks for some reason. That's not to say that I think America's hunky-dory or anything, it just means that I'm personally inured from experiencing it targeted at me. I've never felt unsafe being open about my identity. Which means that my experience of the discussion surrounding this awful conflict has been that the accusations of anti-Semitism have meant less to me, and have more often felt like veiled ways of criticizing anti-Zionism than people genuinely pointing out an issue. That's not to say that that's the right perspective to have, and I appreciate both you and cosmic owl talking about this the way that you are. But I think it's probable that my experience is not unique, and that it's common enough that you have this phenomenon of Jewish people who don't feel directly targeted enough by anti-Semitism that they interpret pro-Israeli propaganda as solely bullshit, without being even slightly anchored to reality.
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but to me it seems painfully clear that the Oct. 7 attacks were terrorism, not war crimes. The casual equation of Hamas and the IDF in comments above also seems, again to me, as so obviously wrong and simpleminded that I'm not quite sure how to respond other than just indicating a lack of agreement and letting it sit with that.
I'm going to preface the thing I'm about to say with: personally, I'm flat-out horrified by the October 7 attacks. I find it really hard to let any amount of political theory or moral idealism sway me into being a fan of violence that targets innocent people. And while I understand the logic that all people living in Israel are complicit in a colonialist occupation—it's why I've actively avoided Birthright my whole life and could never bring myself to feel ethically okay with even visiting Israel—I can't get myself to shift from that to looking at the Hamas attacks and going, "Yes, this is what effective political action looks like." Period.
But I understand the logic of the people who are making that claim, even if I don't share it. The key points, I think, are that Israel has repeatedly responded to attempts at non-violent protests with brutal violence, gunning down innocent Palestinian protestors or using the most feeble claims to "violent action" as justification for merciless cruelty... and that on top of that, it has made active efforts to disempower and disenfranchise any attempt on the Palestinian people's part to form anti-occupation institutions that aren't Hamas, sometimes by actively empowering Hamas in order to give the radical terrorist organization supremacy over any movement that would oppose Israel in less extreme ways.
The point, as I understand it, is not to cheer Hamas on or to consider their tactics humane—it's to see Hamas as the inevitable end result of Israel's treatment of Palestine, not only in its treatment of the settlements but in the way that it actively suppresses any Palestinian right to have a voice that's not the big bad scary extremist organization who makes Israel look good by comparison. It's to acknowledge that some people in Israel's government welcomed this attack, because they wanted to have an excuse to dehumanize Palestinians enough in the world's eyes that they could inflict the kinds of carnal, sadistic violence on Palestinians that they actively fetishize. And even if you think of Hamas as evil, it's possible to lay the blame for that evil on the Israeli government treating that evil like it's convenient for them, or like it gives them opportunities to do things they wanted to do already.
I've been listening to a podcast about the history of Iraq, and it emphasizes the way in which America played a key part in establishing Saddam Hussein's government as a way of overthrowing a more pro-Communist one. It then focuses on how the Gulf War was manufactured as a way of targeting America's former ally, and largely for political convenience—and how much of America's approach to that war, and how much of its treatment of Iraq after the war, consisted of flagrant sadistic acts against Iraqi civilians, not only bombing but torturing and starving them en masse, and justifying it not with the terrible things that Saddam had done but by inventing terrible things that he hadn't. The recurring focus is on how America's foreign policy continually generates horrors that America then cites as justification for committing new horrific acts—how the history of our relationship with the Middle East can't be understood in isolation, because you can point to terrible people doing terrible things and try to make a both-sides argument that portrays America as morally ambiguous, until you look further back and see that America was the root cause of a lot of those terrible people and things in the first place.
It's hard not to look at Israel the same way. Israel's policy towards Palestine is unbelievably cruel and dehumanizing—and not only that, but they cite their need for "security" as a justification for just how inhumane their policies are. "Security" is why they wipe out Palestinian infrastructure, name any critic of Israel a terrorist, and actively interfere with Palestinian political processes to produce results that allow their brutality to continue. And one point that I've seen made over and over again is that, on one level, the October 7 attack has forever tarnished Netanyahu and his allies' claim that this cruelty is "worth it," that it alone can prevent atrocities from being committed against the Israeli people. Because if that brutality didn't stop this from happening, nothing will. And on some level, that makes Hamas's terrorist act an effective political decision, though I'm not convinced that the end result won't just be an ever-more-genocidal extermination of the Palestinian people.
(I mean that in the sense that 9/11 has also been called an extremely effective piece of political propaganda, and one that basically doomed America for decades, possibly forever. By which I mean that I know how to look at things that way, and I also do not fundamentally view the world in those terms. I find it hard to be so self-righteously anti-colonialism that I sneer at innocent people dying even as they're being slaughtered.)
Some people, I think, somewhat share that political assessment, and additionally are a lot more callous towards the Israeli people. Some of them are just fiery and angry and politically extreme; some ache so dearly for Palestine that it's hard for them to see Israel as anything but monstrous; some are just flat-out callous, and there's nothing more to read into their callousness. Some of those people go as far as to view Hamas as fundamentally justified in their actions, or even righteous. And there's undoubtedly an intersection between people who think that way about Hamas and people who are outright anti-Semitic, or a whole fuck of a lot more blasé about possible anti-Semitism than they ought to be. And whether or not they've shifted from hating Israel to hating Jewish people, I think it's pretty fair to call their support for Hamas disgusting or revisionist or outright offensive.
But it's tricky to paint things as black-and-white, and that's not just because pro-Israeli propaganda is so invested in establishing a binary world in which anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are one and the same. I think that anti-Semitism is a serious problem, and I believe that that includes a fuck of a lot of leftists. And I have also seen people say some pretty extreme things about October 7, things that rubbed me the wrong way or that I found outright appalling. But even those people aren't uniformly anti-Semitic, for all that quite a few of them cross that line. Israel's treatment of Palestine is awful on multiple layers, some of which are that it does very-arguably put its own citizens at risk in the name of giving themselves excuses to keep doing awful things with the world's support. I was horrified by October 7 and I can't bring myself to see it as a just or an excusable act. But I was also horrified by how many people, in the name of their Jewish identities, in the name of pushing back against anti-Semitism, jump right to referring to the Palestinian people as a whole as diseased animals who need to be put down. It's left me feeling profoundly unsettled to see Amy Schumer et al openly fantasizing about the horrible things that they'd like to see happen to Palestinians. And that's felt more visceral to me, and affected me more directly, than any anti-Semitism that I've seen surrounding this issue—not least because they're cheering for Palestinian deaths as the Palestinian people are being literally slaughtered.
Put another way: if we accept that what Hamas did is terrorism, then what is the line that the IDF would have to cross to be called terrorists? What's the line now, and what was the line before all this started, when they were mowing down non-violent protestors and committing acts of wanton aggression against innocent civilians? Does Israel's existence as a state mean that the IDF is incapable of committing terrorist acts? And if that's not the case, and if it's reasonable to say that the IDF is, in fact, capable of being a terrorist organization, then can't it be argued that the IDF is a worse terrorist organization than Hamas, both despite and because it has the authority to legitimize its own behaviors in a way that Hamas can't? I'm not sure that I personally arrive at that conclusion—I try to be aware of the depth of my own ignorance, and not conclude anything when I'm too dumb to reach conclusions—but at the very least, it feels like a valid argument to make, and a valid conclusion to arrive at.
(ON PREVIEW: the Financial Times' argument for why Hamas is guilty of war crimes and not terrorism feels like an important, and correct, point to make.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:14 PM on November 29, 2023 [39 favorites]
I think the point some folks are trying to make — and which corb invokes in their reference to US war crimes — is that we (typically) use “terrorism” to label illegitimate violence by non-state actors but “war crimes” to label illegitimate violence by state actors. If merely targeting civilians makes an action by Hamas “terrorism” and not “war crimes” then many violent acts by the US government are “terrorism” such as the many drone strikes or bombings that kill many non-combatant women, children and family of people the US has labeled “terrorist” and decide to kill by attacking them while they are at a home or social event.
I tend to feel this distinction in labeling is absurd since a mother loosing her child to a “terrorist” act is going to feel pretty similar to a mother loosing her child to a state actor commiting a war crime. But the distinction in labels has rhetorical significance and power. A state actor committing a war crime has power to argue it was unavoidable or unintended or necessary (no matter how threadbare the argument might be in many cases). Many will accept a state actor’s violence as necessary even when it’s against civilians with very little excuse needed! But if the violent action is labeled as “terrorism” then it denies the responsible party similar powers of justification. If it’s terrorism, then most will dismiss out of hand any arguments to explain or justify it which we grant to state actors committing violence all the time. By labeling what Hamas does as terrorism we are not just making legalistic claims about the kind of violence but also that they are not state actors. This gets pretty awkward though since the 2+ million people of Gaza only have a Hamas led state as official government.
In short, if what Hamas does is “terrorism” than so is a lot of stuff that many governments do (including the United States). I am okay with calling some stuff that my government (the US) does as terrorism OR war crimes. I’m fine either way. I just don’t like us pretending that the US (or Israel) bombing civilians is somehow less immoral than Hamas doing so merely because we’ve decided Hamas can be labeled as “terrorists”. Labeling some bad actor “terrorist” should not be a free pass to not investigate the root causes of violence, just as being a state actor with international legitimacy should not grant lessor scrutiny of its violence. My own government is probably the worst offender in this regard insofar as we’ve refused to ratify a number of treaties that would subject us to international legal scrutiny for our war crimes.
(on preview: it seems this Financial Times article is likely about this same distinction.)
posted by R343L at 3:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
I tend to feel this distinction in labeling is absurd since a mother loosing her child to a “terrorist” act is going to feel pretty similar to a mother loosing her child to a state actor commiting a war crime. But the distinction in labels has rhetorical significance and power. A state actor committing a war crime has power to argue it was unavoidable or unintended or necessary (no matter how threadbare the argument might be in many cases). Many will accept a state actor’s violence as necessary even when it’s against civilians with very little excuse needed! But if the violent action is labeled as “terrorism” then it denies the responsible party similar powers of justification. If it’s terrorism, then most will dismiss out of hand any arguments to explain or justify it which we grant to state actors committing violence all the time. By labeling what Hamas does as terrorism we are not just making legalistic claims about the kind of violence but also that they are not state actors. This gets pretty awkward though since the 2+ million people of Gaza only have a Hamas led state as official government.
In short, if what Hamas does is “terrorism” than so is a lot of stuff that many governments do (including the United States). I am okay with calling some stuff that my government (the US) does as terrorism OR war crimes. I’m fine either way. I just don’t like us pretending that the US (or Israel) bombing civilians is somehow less immoral than Hamas doing so merely because we’ve decided Hamas can be labeled as “terrorists”. Labeling some bad actor “terrorist” should not be a free pass to not investigate the root causes of violence, just as being a state actor with international legitimacy should not grant lessor scrutiny of its violence. My own government is probably the worst offender in this regard insofar as we’ve refused to ratify a number of treaties that would subject us to international legal scrutiny for our war crimes.
(on preview: it seems this Financial Times article is likely about this same distinction.)
posted by R343L at 3:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
Hamas is also committing war crimes against Palestinians by using them as human shields, quartering soldiers in schools and hospitals, using child soldiers, and shooting at civilians fleeing combat zones. This on top of a long history of torturing and murdering by political opponents and dissidents. Hamas has refused to hold elections since coming to power in 2005. Their bullshit about resistance by any means necessary — first of all assumes it is necessary— it isn’t. Second of all it hasn’t worked. It will never going to work. It will only get more people killed.
posted by interogative mood at 3:29 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:29 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
The vast majority of claims of antisemitism on the left are related to anti-Zionism; antisemitism is a real problem, and it's been worryingly growing in intensity in recent years, but I don't really see how one can draw a serious comparison between white nationalists chanting "Jews will not replace us", or Trumpists claiming that George Soros is funding antifa/pro-Palestinian protests/etc, and college students chanting "from the river to the sea". These things are not really in the same category.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:29 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:29 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes! Very much agreed that Hamas’ military leadership uses the fact that they are constrained to a tiny strip
posted by R343L at 3:30 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by R343L at 3:30 PM on November 29, 2023
Hamas is also committing war crimes against Palestinians by using them as human shields, quartering soldiers in schools and hospitals, using child soldiers, and shooting at civilians fleeing combat zones. This on top of a long history of torturing and murdering by political opponents and dissidents. Hamas has refused to hold elections since coming to power in 2005. Their bullshit about resistance by any means necessary — first of all assumes it is necessary— it isn't
Israel has been committing war crimes since its exception, and was founded on one (the Nakba). And Israel is still building settlements in the West Bank, still torturing Palestinian prisoners held in detention without charge, still killing or maiming peaceful protestors. Why exactly do you think, in this situation, resistance on the part of the people experiencing these things isn't necessary?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:32 PM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Israel has been committing war crimes since its exception, and was founded on one (the Nakba). And Israel is still building settlements in the West Bank, still torturing Palestinian prisoners held in detention without charge, still killing or maiming peaceful protestors. Why exactly do you think, in this situation, resistance on the part of the people experiencing these things isn't necessary?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:32 PM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
By labeling what Hamas does as terrorism we are not just making legalistic claims about the kind of violence but also that they are not state actors.
Right, precisely this. War crimes and terrorism are not words that are matters of degree - they are words specifically used to differentiate state from non-state actors. If you believe that Palestine is a state, (which the United Nations does, having recognized it as an observer-state in 1974 and allowed it to be a signatory to the Geneva Convention), then the armed wing of its state is termed a military if the word is to have any meaning at all.
We can - and do - argue about whether Palestine is, or is not a state. 139/193 countries, or 72% of nations of the world, believe that it is. The United States, along with rest of the other 28%, believe that it is not. But if you believe that Palestine is a state, then Hamas is their military. We cannot determine whether something is terrorism or not by how many people are killed. We determine it by whether it is performed by the military, or by civilians.
Because I believe Palestine is a state, I believe that Hamas is a military and they are committing war crimes against citizens of a fellow state, Israel. I don't think they should be doing it - but it doesn't remove the legitimacy of the state of Palestine because they are doing so.
posted by corb at 3:38 PM on November 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
Right, precisely this. War crimes and terrorism are not words that are matters of degree - they are words specifically used to differentiate state from non-state actors. If you believe that Palestine is a state, (which the United Nations does, having recognized it as an observer-state in 1974 and allowed it to be a signatory to the Geneva Convention), then the armed wing of its state is termed a military if the word is to have any meaning at all.
We can - and do - argue about whether Palestine is, or is not a state. 139/193 countries, or 72% of nations of the world, believe that it is. The United States, along with rest of the other 28%, believe that it is not. But if you believe that Palestine is a state, then Hamas is their military. We cannot determine whether something is terrorism or not by how many people are killed. We determine it by whether it is performed by the military, or by civilians.
Because I believe Palestine is a state, I believe that Hamas is a military and they are committing war crimes against citizens of a fellow state, Israel. I don't think they should be doing it - but it doesn't remove the legitimacy of the state of Palestine because they are doing so.
posted by corb at 3:38 PM on November 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
My precious comment somehow hit enter before I was done. The tiny strip of land that is Gaza makes it easy for Hamas to locate themselves — by necessity really if they want to be a military at all — in locations that put non-combatants in harms way. It’s certainly a war crime but I think one that would get more nuanced discussion (at least among US audiences) if the common analysis didn’t basically end with “well hamas are terrorists so what can you expect”.
posted by R343L at 3:44 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by R343L at 3:44 PM on November 29, 2023
Either way, I don't think it's a war crime once the civilian has a gun.
Christ.
posted by Klipspringer at 3:54 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Christ.
posted by Klipspringer at 3:54 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
But if you believe that Palestine is a state, then Hamas is their military.
What, Hamas governs all of Palestine? They are arguably a subnational actor, but they are certainly not the Palestine state's entitled military. As a subnational actor (at best), they certainly meet the US legal definition of terrorism and many others as well.
Israel has been committing war crimes since its exception, and was founded on one (the Nakba). And Israel is still building settlements in the West Bank, still torturing Palestinian prisoners held in detention without charge, still killing or maiming peaceful protestors. Why exactly do you think, in this situation, resistance on the part of the people experiencing these things isn't necessary?
And just like I commented in the previous thread -- everyone commenting here is almost certainly living in a country founded on genocide (US, Australia), perpetrator of colonialism and genocide (France, UK), or some combination of colonized and perpetrator (India, Indonesia, Mexico). Are you willing to say that an attack of that scale would be justified in your home town? If not (and of course we all would say no to that), then why all the "yeah but" justifications of this violence occurring in Israel? Surely it couldn't be the one thing that makes Israel unique as a nation, could it?
posted by Dip Flash at 3:56 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
What, Hamas governs all of Palestine? They are arguably a subnational actor, but they are certainly not the Palestine state's entitled military. As a subnational actor (at best), they certainly meet the US legal definition of terrorism and many others as well.
Israel has been committing war crimes since its exception, and was founded on one (the Nakba). And Israel is still building settlements in the West Bank, still torturing Palestinian prisoners held in detention without charge, still killing or maiming peaceful protestors. Why exactly do you think, in this situation, resistance on the part of the people experiencing these things isn't necessary?
And just like I commented in the previous thread -- everyone commenting here is almost certainly living in a country founded on genocide (US, Australia), perpetrator of colonialism and genocide (France, UK), or some combination of colonized and perpetrator (India, Indonesia, Mexico). Are you willing to say that an attack of that scale would be justified in your home town? If not (and of course we all would say no to that), then why all the "yeah but" justifications of this violence occurring in Israel? Surely it couldn't be the one thing that makes Israel unique as a nation, could it?
posted by Dip Flash at 3:56 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but to me it seems painfully clear that the Oct. 7 attacks were terrorism, not war crimes. The casual equation of Hamas and the IDF in comments above also seems, again to me, as so obviously wrong and simpleminded that I'm not quite sure how to respond other than just indicating a lack of agreement and letting it sit with that.
I have to say that I put a fair bit of work into typing up my earlier comment about my politics and those of other anti-Zionist organizers and having it dismissed as "obviously wrong and simple-minded" is really frustrating!
I truly want to understand why people who seem to be otherwise thoughtful and intelligent have come to such radically different conclusions about the IDF and its moral culpability than I and many other people I know have. I will admit that I am very much in an echo chamber on this issue and almost everyone I am close to is a committed anti-Zionist--and the most committed and involved are Jewish.
So why is it "simple-minded"? I feel like I've seen so many similar dismissals of anti-Zionist framings of what's happening in Gaza: you don't understand, you haven't done your research, you're just repeating what everyone else is saying. Since it's never followed by any kind of real explanation on what research I'm supposed to be doing (since I am actually very educated on this issue, speak basic Arabic, have been organizing around Palestine for years and have a degree in Middle Eastern studies!), it always sounds kind of like "shut up."
posted by armadillo1224 at 4:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
I have to say that I put a fair bit of work into typing up my earlier comment about my politics and those of other anti-Zionist organizers and having it dismissed as "obviously wrong and simple-minded" is really frustrating!
I truly want to understand why people who seem to be otherwise thoughtful and intelligent have come to such radically different conclusions about the IDF and its moral culpability than I and many other people I know have. I will admit that I am very much in an echo chamber on this issue and almost everyone I am close to is a committed anti-Zionist--and the most committed and involved are Jewish.
So why is it "simple-minded"? I feel like I've seen so many similar dismissals of anti-Zionist framings of what's happening in Gaza: you don't understand, you haven't done your research, you're just repeating what everyone else is saying. Since it's never followed by any kind of real explanation on what research I'm supposed to be doing (since I am actually very educated on this issue, speak basic Arabic, have been organizing around Palestine for years and have a degree in Middle Eastern studies!), it always sounds kind of like "shut up."
posted by armadillo1224 at 4:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
everyone commenting here is almost certainly living in a country founded on genocide
Yes, and? Do you have an argument that isn't whataboutism? We are talking about things which are happening now, not things which happened 100, 200, 400 years ago.
As far as that goes, one of my ancestors was a survivor of the 1622 Jamestown massacre, which was, proportionally, far far worse (a quarter of the colony's inhabitants were killed). I don't condemn the natives who carried it out.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:02 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, and? Do you have an argument that isn't whataboutism? We are talking about things which are happening now, not things which happened 100, 200, 400 years ago.
As far as that goes, one of my ancestors was a survivor of the 1622 Jamestown massacre, which was, proportionally, far far worse (a quarter of the colony's inhabitants were killed). I don't condemn the natives who carried it out.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:02 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Three things I came across in Jewish Currents today, which I thought I'd post even though I'm still kind of absorbing them.
“Never Again” After October 7th: Scholars of the Holocaust discuss the mobilization of Jewish memory in the wake of Hamas’s attacks and Israel’s war on Gaza. It’s important to remember that perpetrators of genocide always see their victims as threatening and powerful. This mechanism was used by the Nazis against the Jews, and it is now being used by Israel against the Palestinians. In this way, we understand the equation of Hamas, and therefore Palestinians, with Nazis as a genocidal mechanism.
Toward a Sober Assessment of Campus Antisemitism: In a moment when many American Jews are afraid—and their fear is being used to erode civil liberties—we must examine the incidents coming across our screens with calm. The more time I spent on campuses, the more I realized that the narrative of Jewish unsafety was largely foisted upon students from the outside—a conclusion supported by numerous studies, commissioned by Brandeis and Stanford academics. This narrative of a single, monolithic Jewish campus experience is also consistently belied by the many Jewish students organizing for Palestinian rights, including new groups like Jews for Ceasefire Now at Brown and Jews for Ceasefire at MIT.
Amid a Settler Onslaught, Protective Presence Activism Falters: As settlers rampage, Israeli and international activists are struggling to leverage their relative privilege to protect Palestinians in the West Bank. In the village of Ein al-Rashash, for example, round-the-clock protective presence had helped the community hold on to their land, but eventually settler violence became too much to bear. In mid-October, the residents—18 families consisting of 85 Palestinians—packed most of their belongings and left the village. The 180 residents of Wadi a-Seeq also met with the same fate despite activists’ protective presence, and the list continues to grow. “I am really devastated,” said Shulman. “We persevered through all kinds of violence for years. These communities are friends of ours. To watch them go into exile is an agony. Truly an agony.”
posted by kensington314 at 4:08 PM on November 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
“Never Again” After October 7th: Scholars of the Holocaust discuss the mobilization of Jewish memory in the wake of Hamas’s attacks and Israel’s war on Gaza. It’s important to remember that perpetrators of genocide always see their victims as threatening and powerful. This mechanism was used by the Nazis against the Jews, and it is now being used by Israel against the Palestinians. In this way, we understand the equation of Hamas, and therefore Palestinians, with Nazis as a genocidal mechanism.
Toward a Sober Assessment of Campus Antisemitism: In a moment when many American Jews are afraid—and their fear is being used to erode civil liberties—we must examine the incidents coming across our screens with calm. The more time I spent on campuses, the more I realized that the narrative of Jewish unsafety was largely foisted upon students from the outside—a conclusion supported by numerous studies, commissioned by Brandeis and Stanford academics. This narrative of a single, monolithic Jewish campus experience is also consistently belied by the many Jewish students organizing for Palestinian rights, including new groups like Jews for Ceasefire Now at Brown and Jews for Ceasefire at MIT.
Amid a Settler Onslaught, Protective Presence Activism Falters: As settlers rampage, Israeli and international activists are struggling to leverage their relative privilege to protect Palestinians in the West Bank. In the village of Ein al-Rashash, for example, round-the-clock protective presence had helped the community hold on to their land, but eventually settler violence became too much to bear. In mid-October, the residents—18 families consisting of 85 Palestinians—packed most of their belongings and left the village. The 180 residents of Wadi a-Seeq also met with the same fate despite activists’ protective presence, and the list continues to grow. “I am really devastated,” said Shulman. “We persevered through all kinds of violence for years. These communities are friends of ours. To watch them go into exile is an agony. Truly an agony.”
posted by kensington314 at 4:08 PM on November 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
(Side note: in the US, state national guards are considered military, despite being under state rather than federal control. By analogy, that Hamas only governs/controls Gaza and not the West Bank isn’t particularly relevant to the question of whether they are considered a state government whose military wing has committed war crimes versus a terrorist group.)
posted by eviemath at 4:26 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:26 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yesterday in the New Yorker, "What Would a Lasting Peace Between Israel and Palestine Really Look Like?," an Isaac Chotiner interview with Nathan Thrall, the former director of the International Crisis Group’s Arab-Israeli project.
If the whole world were saying, “Our default from now on is equality for everybody under Israeli control, and you figure out whatever long-term solution you want that would preserve your goals,” then Israel would have a very strong incentive to move toward.
posted by kensington314 at 4:26 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
If the whole world were saying, “Our default from now on is equality for everybody under Israeli control, and you figure out whatever long-term solution you want that would preserve your goals,” then Israel would have a very strong incentive to move toward.
posted by kensington314 at 4:26 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
As far as that goes, one of my ancestors was a survivor of the 1622 Jamestown massacre, which was, proportionally, far far worse (a quarter of the colony's inhabitants were killed). I don't condemn the natives who carried it out.
Ah, yes. I think you hit a salient point. my great aunt DeLucia was at hickam field December 1941 suffice to say she was one of the first American civilians to be strafed by the Japanese, I have the newspaper clipping to prove it. during the war my father noticed that every child that was American was extremely anti-japanese. he did not want to teach his children this. I was the only one of my history seminar to oppose dropping the atomic bomb on Japan in class debate. the teacher who taught me about Japanese culture and encouraged me to take up Japanese studies and move to Japan was from Hawaii as were his ancestors and they were interred during the second World War.
I learned more from that man the most the teachers I've ever had. I think the only common denominator here is over time these memories tend to fade become memorials and statues and books and stories.
But this, so much blood.
Saving Gaza Begins with Its Water 2020.
posted by clavdivs at 4:29 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ah, yes. I think you hit a salient point. my great aunt DeLucia was at hickam field December 1941 suffice to say she was one of the first American civilians to be strafed by the Japanese, I have the newspaper clipping to prove it. during the war my father noticed that every child that was American was extremely anti-japanese. he did not want to teach his children this. I was the only one of my history seminar to oppose dropping the atomic bomb on Japan in class debate. the teacher who taught me about Japanese culture and encouraged me to take up Japanese studies and move to Japan was from Hawaii as were his ancestors and they were interred during the second World War.
I learned more from that man the most the teachers I've ever had. I think the only common denominator here is over time these memories tend to fade become memorials and statues and books and stories.
But this, so much blood.
Saving Gaza Begins with Its Water 2020.
posted by clavdivs at 4:29 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Either way, I don't think it's a war crime once the civilian has a gun."
Christ.
I really don't understand what I've got wrong here? Like, looking funny at an ADF person basically makes you a valid target when Australia is at war. I really don't think you could shoot 7 of our soldiers and have *anyone* think that you were a civilian tragically murdered.
I thought the whole thing with partisans was that you have to treat them as soldiers, not as terrorists, not that they remained civilians in every sense no matter what they did.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:43 PM on November 29, 2023
Christ.
I really don't understand what I've got wrong here? Like, looking funny at an ADF person basically makes you a valid target when Australia is at war. I really don't think you could shoot 7 of our soldiers and have *anyone* think that you were a civilian tragically murdered.
I thought the whole thing with partisans was that you have to treat them as soldiers, not as terrorists, not that they remained civilians in every sense no matter what they did.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:43 PM on November 29, 2023
what is is it precisely you're trying to convey with this analogy.
posted by clavdivs at 4:58 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 4:58 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
That people who would be considered valid targets, who it is not a war crime to kill, were plastered all over the news as tragic victims?? Because they're Israeli, not Palestinian.
But now I'm confused. Is it a war crime to kill a civilian even if they've already killed half your squad?
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:02 PM on November 29, 2023
But now I'm confused. Is it a war crime to kill a civilian even if they've already killed half your squad?
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:02 PM on November 29, 2023
lot of work being done by "they" in your last sentence, Audreynachrome
posted by lalochezia at 5:04 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by lalochezia at 5:04 PM on November 29, 2023
Like the "Christ" implied to me that I've said something horribly callous or beyond the pale, and I don't really understand how it is, if you view this a war with two militaries fighting.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:04 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:04 PM on November 29, 2023
What lot of work? They, the two Israelis??? Are you implying that was a "the Jews" they? You really are mad.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:05 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:05 PM on November 29, 2023
Amid a Settler Onslaught, Protective Presence Activism Falters: As settlers rampage, Israeli and international activists are struggling to leverage their relative privilege to protect Palestinians in the West Bank. In the village of Ein al-Rashash, for example, round-the-clock protective presence had helped the community hold on to their land, but eventually settler violence became too much to bear. In mid-October, the residents—18 families consisting of 85 Palestinians—packed most of their belongings and left the village. The 180 residents of Wadi a-Seeq also met with the same fate despite activists’ protective presence, and the list continues to grow. “I am really devastated,” said Shulman. “We persevered through all kinds of violence for years. These communities are friends of ours. To watch them go into exile is an agony. Truly an agony.”
There's a good article in the most recent New York Review of Books by Adam Shulman of Ta’ayush, who is featured in this article. His description of the West Bank is basically as a lawless place overrun with far-right Israeli settlers. It's worth seeking out if you have access to NYRB.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:05 PM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
There's a good article in the most recent New York Review of Books by Adam Shulman of Ta’ayush, who is featured in this article. His description of the West Bank is basically as a lawless place overrun with far-right Israeli settlers. It's worth seeking out if you have access to NYRB.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:05 PM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I take it by your first comment you equated the couple who are unarmed who might or might not have been in the IDF as legitimate targets because they were soldiers. is this correct
posted by clavdivs at 5:07 PM on November 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:07 PM on November 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm saying that they're legitimate targets once they picked up their rifles and started shooting!! I'm so confused as to what I've said that's wrong here.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:08 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:08 PM on November 29, 2023
Who told you they were unarmed? Everything I read said they had military training, their guns, and the articles were if anything *proud* that they killed a bunch of Hamas fighters, yet still seemed to treat them as murdered civilians.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:10 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:10 PM on November 29, 2023
One clarifying question - would you also call Palestinians who throw rocks or fire guns etc at IDF forces "people who would be considered valid targets, who it is not a war crime to kill" because they picked up a weapon and used it against a perceived threat?
The idea that there are no true civilians in a conflict zone isn't totally unheard of, but it is generally considered rather cruel; however, we should establish if that's what you mean.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 5:12 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The idea that there are no true civilians in a conflict zone isn't totally unheard of, but it is generally considered rather cruel; however, we should establish if that's what you mean.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 5:12 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
is this what the couple did, pick up their weapons and started shooting. I have a personal problem with the analogy not so much as a soldier picking up a weapon to defend themselves.and I think it's in the Geneva convention somewhere that you don't shoot soldiers unarmed while they're having breakfast then kidnap or exploit their children.
posted by clavdivs at 5:13 PM on November 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:13 PM on November 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought the whole thing with partisans was that you have to treat them as soldiers, not as terrorists, not that they remained civilians in every sense no matter what they did.
This is fair but also relies on an identification of "anyone with military training and a weapon" as a partisan. (Which, not uncoincidentally, is pretty close to the pro-Israel position of "anyone of military age is a presumed combatant.") Is there any evidence that the couple that killed seven Hamas fighters were engaged in active duty as IDF soldiers, or used their training and weapons to irregularly pursue political goals outside of this instance of self-defense? If not, they are civilians by international law and therefore entitled to all the rights accorded to such.
(Even current soldiers on leave are considered civilians, according to one of the speakers in the video linked above [but here timestamped] by Violet Blue: "international law defines civilians not as people who are completely innocent of occupation, but as people who are not in active service of the army." That's one of the things that makes partisanship so difficult from an international law standpoint.)
Is it a war crime to kill a civilian even if they've already killed half your squad?
This seems to be a question entirely distinct from the partisanship question. I'm not sure of the answer from an international law standpoint, but from a "my personal politics" standpoint the answer is yes! If someone was unambiguously a civilian when you entered hostilities with them and then they begin to employ violence in self-defense, even to the point of killing multiple members of your squad, they do not lose civilian status by virtue of defending themselves. If the "civilian" walked up to you unprovoked and initiated hostilities, that's another question, but it doesn't seem like that was the case here.
posted by the tartare yolk at 5:17 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is fair but also relies on an identification of "anyone with military training and a weapon" as a partisan. (Which, not uncoincidentally, is pretty close to the pro-Israel position of "anyone of military age is a presumed combatant.") Is there any evidence that the couple that killed seven Hamas fighters were engaged in active duty as IDF soldiers, or used their training and weapons to irregularly pursue political goals outside of this instance of self-defense? If not, they are civilians by international law and therefore entitled to all the rights accorded to such.
(Even current soldiers on leave are considered civilians, according to one of the speakers in the video linked above [but here timestamped] by Violet Blue: "international law defines civilians not as people who are completely innocent of occupation, but as people who are not in active service of the army." That's one of the things that makes partisanship so difficult from an international law standpoint.)
Is it a war crime to kill a civilian even if they've already killed half your squad?
This seems to be a question entirely distinct from the partisanship question. I'm not sure of the answer from an international law standpoint, but from a "my personal politics" standpoint the answer is yes! If someone was unambiguously a civilian when you entered hostilities with them and then they begin to employ violence in self-defense, even to the point of killing multiple members of your squad, they do not lose civilian status by virtue of defending themselves. If the "civilian" walked up to you unprovoked and initiated hostilities, that's another question, but it doesn't seem like that was the case here.
posted by the tartare yolk at 5:17 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
would you also call Palestinians who throw rocks or fire guns etc at IDF forces "people who would be considered valid targets, who it is not a war crime to kill"
I think a gun and a rock are different, but like, yes, this is the status quo? The IDF is killing those people and it's getting counted as legitimate targets, not civilian murdering??
Which was my original point? more Israeli casualties are treated as intentional war crimes and more Palestinian casualties as acceptable collateral.
I think there are civilians in war zones! I just thought the fastest way to exit that civilian category was by picking up a gun and shooting soldiers?
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:19 PM on November 29, 2023
I think a gun and a rock are different, but like, yes, this is the status quo? The IDF is killing those people and it's getting counted as legitimate targets, not civilian murdering??
Which was my original point? more Israeli casualties are treated as intentional war crimes and more Palestinian casualties as acceptable collateral.
I think there are civilians in war zones! I just thought the fastest way to exit that civilian category was by picking up a gun and shooting soldiers?
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:19 PM on November 29, 2023
The Palestinians don't have a state because they have been deliberately denied a state. They are a stateless people living on what are basically reservations, under permanent siege. This is why they do not have a "military" whose violence against civilians would be conventionally categorised as war-crimes. Instead they have militias whose violence against civilians is categorised as terrorism.
This makes the comparison between Hamas and the IDF a poor one. While both are organisations that commit deliberate violence against civilians, one is the military of a State enforcing a colonial occupation, the other is the militia of a stateless population resisting a colonial occupation.
posted by nikodym at 5:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
This makes the comparison between Hamas and the IDF a poor one. While both are organisations that commit deliberate violence against civilians, one is the military of a State enforcing a colonial occupation, the other is the militia of a stateless population resisting a colonial occupation.
posted by nikodym at 5:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Civilians engaging in self-defence against an armed attack by using whatever weapons at hand doesn't make them partisans; under the laws of war they count as privileged combatants.
Privileged combatants
The following categories of combatants qualify for prisoner-of-war status on capture:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that they fulfill the following conditions:
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war; often dubbed a levée after the mass conscription during the French Revolution.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:22 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Privileged combatants
The following categories of combatants qualify for prisoner-of-war status on capture:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that they fulfill the following conditions:
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war; often dubbed a levée after the mass conscription during the French Revolution.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:22 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ah, Audreynachrome, since you provided no link to your initial story I assumed it was another civilian couple murdered in their closet and their child stolen or terrorized.
posted by clavdivs at 5:25 PM on November 29, 2023
posted by clavdivs at 5:25 PM on November 29, 2023
Apologies, I should have linked the NYT investigation of Al Ahli (which I had mixed up with Al Shifa) in my post above.
Here's the initial NYT debunking of the IDF evidence for a PIJ missile
Channel 4 also investigated and came to a similar conclusion.
Here's a NYT investigation of subsequent attacks on Al Shifa that found that they were probably IDF artillery shells
Given the IDF has deliberately attacked hospitals repeatedly in the weeks since I think the simplest explanation is that the IDF killed far more people than planned in the strike and decided to deny responsibility.
posted by zymil at 5:27 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here's the initial NYT debunking of the IDF evidence for a PIJ missile
Channel 4 also investigated and came to a similar conclusion.
Here's a NYT investigation of subsequent attacks on Al Shifa that found that they were probably IDF artillery shells
Given the IDF has deliberately attacked hospitals repeatedly in the weeks since I think the simplest explanation is that the IDF killed far more people than planned in the strike and decided to deny responsibility.
posted by zymil at 5:27 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I did say in the initial comment that they killed several Hamas fighters? Did you think that was with mean looks?
Is it a war crime to shoot *back* at a "privileged combatant", then, perhaps I should have asked? At this point I have no idea anymore. I kind of thought that in pretty much all circumstances you're allowed to shoot *back* against anyone.
Sorry for the derail, I guess I really have no understanding of war crimes.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:31 PM on November 29, 2023
Is it a war crime to shoot *back* at a "privileged combatant", then, perhaps I should have asked? At this point I have no idea anymore. I kind of thought that in pretty much all circumstances you're allowed to shoot *back* against anyone.
Sorry for the derail, I guess I really have no understanding of war crimes.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:31 PM on November 29, 2023
Is it a war crime to shoot *back* at a "privileged combatant", then, perhaps I should have asked?
Nope. "Privileged" just means "to be treated as prisoners of war when captured".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:33 PM on November 29, 2023
Nope. "Privileged" just means "to be treated as prisoners of war when captured".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:33 PM on November 29, 2023
Mod note: Okay, major derail going on in this thread that needs to stop now. You can MeMail each other if you'd like to continue debating/conversing but please leave it out of this thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 6:08 PM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 6:08 PM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
If the argument is that killing civilians is a war crime when the IDF does it, because they are the formal military of a formal state, but terrorism when Hamas does it because they are not, then you are effectively saying that Israeli violence against Palestinian targets is (or can be) legitimate but Palestinian violence against Israeli targets cannot. This is a problematic imbalance.
I'm good with saying both sides are guilty of the war crime of terrorism (and others), but I'm not an international lawyer.
posted by Dysk at 6:09 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm good with saying both sides are guilty of the war crime of terrorism (and others), but I'm not an international lawyer.
posted by Dysk at 6:09 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
And just like I commented in the previous thread -- everyone commenting here is almost certainly living in a country founded on genocide (US, Australia), perpetrator of colonialism and genocide (France, UK), or some combination of colonized and perpetrator (India, Indonesia, Mexico). Are you willing to say that an attack of that scale would be justified in your home town? If not (and of course we all would say no to that), then why all the "yeah but" justifications of this violence occurring in Israel? Surely it couldn't be the one thing that makes Israel unique as a nation, could it?
My younger sister's wife is Native American, and deeply connected to their tribe—so much so that it's now my sister's family as much as, if not more than, her biological family. And her wife was extremely anxious about attending Thanksgiving, a holiday about which they already have very conflicted thoughts (to put it mildly), with a Jewish family that has, in the past, leaned pretty damn Zionist. But the subject didn't come up, and I think that a part of why it didn't is that my family is, at its core, pretty damn decent—it's really hard for me to imagine any one of them witnessing the atrocities of the last month and coming away cheering Israel on.
We talked about this, a couple of nights later, over drinks. About the strangeness of Thanksgiving, a whitewashing of a genocide and land theft, now being a part of their annual routine with their in-laws. About the unsettling parallels between America's history and Israel's present. About the convergences and divergences of the Jewish and Native historic and cultural experiences.
And what we came to, more than anything, is that we have no control over who and what we were born as, or how our families wound up living where they live, but we have a responsibility to understand those stories. We are not culpable for our families' pasts, but we are responsible for them, which means not looking away from them, not pretending that we came from nowhere, not acting like the history of the world began five minutes ago.
To the extent that we discussed Palestine, it was a quick and simple agreement between all of us that what Israel is doing to Palestine is absolutely immoral, and that at the absolute least we are all responsible for saying so, and for pushing back against the idea that, as Americans or as Jewish people, we owe Israel our support.
It's pretty offensive to suggest that people who oppose genocide and colonialism are doing it because they hate the Jews. And as a Jewish man, frankly, I'm pretty fucking sick of allegations of anti-Semitism being wielded as a convenient rhetorical device. Beyond this specific situation, beyond the existence of Israel itself, a whole lot of people sure love to invent spurious charges of anti-Semitism in order to score cheap points against whoever they happen to dislike. I've been called a self-loathing Jew by non-Jewish people before who found my identity inconvenient to their bullshit attempts to quickly win some dumb argument, in the same way that right-wing Zionists are now literally suggesting that I and my sister and my family don't qualify as Jewish because we're willing to call an atrocity an atrocity.
There's a pretty huge fucking gap, in other words, between "blood libel" and Israel bombing fucking hospitals, because some sick perverts in the actual Israeli government—actual elected officials—fetishize the thought of causing pain to innocent Palestinians. And there's a reason why, as a Jew, I find Israel's behavior not only revolting but a betrayal of everything I consider a part of what makes me Jewish. It's a betrayal of the lesson that we claim to have taken away from the Holocaust, and it's a betrayal of the deeper stories of the Tanakh, in which the Jewish people are endlessly nomads at the mercy of other kingdoms, other peoples, who seek to eradicate them to preserve the purity of their national identities.
Long story short, I talked to a descendant of America's colonialist genocide just this week, and their official take, as a paid employee of their respective tribe, is "Fuck what Israel's doing." And they sure don't hate Jews, which I know because I chanted the Hebrew prayers at their wedding. Save your cheap rhetoric for an argument that revolves around fewer mass graves of children, please.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:35 PM on November 29, 2023 [33 favorites]
My younger sister's wife is Native American, and deeply connected to their tribe—so much so that it's now my sister's family as much as, if not more than, her biological family. And her wife was extremely anxious about attending Thanksgiving, a holiday about which they already have very conflicted thoughts (to put it mildly), with a Jewish family that has, in the past, leaned pretty damn Zionist. But the subject didn't come up, and I think that a part of why it didn't is that my family is, at its core, pretty damn decent—it's really hard for me to imagine any one of them witnessing the atrocities of the last month and coming away cheering Israel on.
We talked about this, a couple of nights later, over drinks. About the strangeness of Thanksgiving, a whitewashing of a genocide and land theft, now being a part of their annual routine with their in-laws. About the unsettling parallels between America's history and Israel's present. About the convergences and divergences of the Jewish and Native historic and cultural experiences.
And what we came to, more than anything, is that we have no control over who and what we were born as, or how our families wound up living where they live, but we have a responsibility to understand those stories. We are not culpable for our families' pasts, but we are responsible for them, which means not looking away from them, not pretending that we came from nowhere, not acting like the history of the world began five minutes ago.
To the extent that we discussed Palestine, it was a quick and simple agreement between all of us that what Israel is doing to Palestine is absolutely immoral, and that at the absolute least we are all responsible for saying so, and for pushing back against the idea that, as Americans or as Jewish people, we owe Israel our support.
It's pretty offensive to suggest that people who oppose genocide and colonialism are doing it because they hate the Jews. And as a Jewish man, frankly, I'm pretty fucking sick of allegations of anti-Semitism being wielded as a convenient rhetorical device. Beyond this specific situation, beyond the existence of Israel itself, a whole lot of people sure love to invent spurious charges of anti-Semitism in order to score cheap points against whoever they happen to dislike. I've been called a self-loathing Jew by non-Jewish people before who found my identity inconvenient to their bullshit attempts to quickly win some dumb argument, in the same way that right-wing Zionists are now literally suggesting that I and my sister and my family don't qualify as Jewish because we're willing to call an atrocity an atrocity.
There's a pretty huge fucking gap, in other words, between "blood libel" and Israel bombing fucking hospitals, because some sick perverts in the actual Israeli government—actual elected officials—fetishize the thought of causing pain to innocent Palestinians. And there's a reason why, as a Jew, I find Israel's behavior not only revolting but a betrayal of everything I consider a part of what makes me Jewish. It's a betrayal of the lesson that we claim to have taken away from the Holocaust, and it's a betrayal of the deeper stories of the Tanakh, in which the Jewish people are endlessly nomads at the mercy of other kingdoms, other peoples, who seek to eradicate them to preserve the purity of their national identities.
Long story short, I talked to a descendant of America's colonialist genocide just this week, and their official take, as a paid employee of their respective tribe, is "Fuck what Israel's doing." And they sure don't hate Jews, which I know because I chanted the Hebrew prayers at their wedding. Save your cheap rhetoric for an argument that revolves around fewer mass graves of children, please.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:35 PM on November 29, 2023 [33 favorites]
Okay. So there are two things going on here, and I think people are conflating them and it's making the discussion harder.
There is a difference between what is a war crime (generally agreed upon to be, at a minimum, the legal standards of the Geneva convention) and what is an immoral action in war.
A war crime can be many things, including things people don't think about. For example, technically the United States is committing war crimes under the Geneva Convention by failing to attempt to utilize its influence over Israel to attempt to stop them from violating the Geneva Convention: Article I creates a positive obligation of state signatories to actively create compliance by other contracting parties. There's also obligations to search for and protect the wounded. And of course, the things everyone thinks of - what are termed grave breaches - wilful killing, torture, or extensive destruction of property not justified by military necessity.
There are also things that may not be specifically illegal, but we can think are immoral. So for example - there are things that remove the protection afforded hospitals under the Geneva Conventions, but we might still think (as I do) that it's immoral to target them.
In this case, I think both parties are committing acts that are both war crimes and immoral acts. But I would urge people who are really sticking on the label of terrorism, to examine their own beliefs about why. Why is it important to you to deny the label of a state-supported military to Palestinian armed combatants? Why is it important to you to use the word "terrorist"? What work is that word doing that the other word isn't? And why do you need that work to be done?
posted by corb at 6:39 PM on November 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
There is a difference between what is a war crime (generally agreed upon to be, at a minimum, the legal standards of the Geneva convention) and what is an immoral action in war.
A war crime can be many things, including things people don't think about. For example, technically the United States is committing war crimes under the Geneva Convention by failing to attempt to utilize its influence over Israel to attempt to stop them from violating the Geneva Convention: Article I creates a positive obligation of state signatories to actively create compliance by other contracting parties. There's also obligations to search for and protect the wounded. And of course, the things everyone thinks of - what are termed grave breaches - wilful killing, torture, or extensive destruction of property not justified by military necessity.
There are also things that may not be specifically illegal, but we can think are immoral. So for example - there are things that remove the protection afforded hospitals under the Geneva Conventions, but we might still think (as I do) that it's immoral to target them.
In this case, I think both parties are committing acts that are both war crimes and immoral acts. But I would urge people who are really sticking on the label of terrorism, to examine their own beliefs about why. Why is it important to you to deny the label of a state-supported military to Palestinian armed combatants? Why is it important to you to use the word "terrorist"? What work is that word doing that the other word isn't? And why do you need that work to be done?
posted by corb at 6:39 PM on November 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
I don't like linking to live updates unless there's a good way to anchor the specific news, so I'll settle with this one: Intensive talks under way to extend Israel-Hamas truce as deadline looms - the main sticking point seems to be Israel's position on a permanent one moving forward; as of an hour plus ago Qatar is feeling confident of at least the extension moving forward.
The local Malay press was presenting a portion of this news as Bibi placing a foundation stone to claim a portion of Gaza, however Times of Israel reports it more like reopening/rebuilding a nearby kibbutz. Their main story with this fact however: Several Gaza border communities refuse to send reps to meeting with Netanyahu
In US: Some Politicians Calling for a “Ceasefire” Are Not Actually Calling for a Ceasefire - As the word “ceasefire” gains currency in Congress, some lawmakers are coupling their calls for peace in Gaza with conditions that cannot be met.
--
Some members of Congress are coupling their calls for a ceasefire with conditions like the removal of Hamas, which is ostensibly Israel’s justification for its brutal campaign against Gaza, while others are using the word in vague statements that leave room for interpretation.
“Calls from members of Congress that demand regime change before there is an end to Israel’s bombardment are calls to extend and prolong a situation in which Israel is killing Palestinian children every single hour,” said Beth Miller of Jewish Voice for Peace, an organization that has co-led massive pro-peace demonstrations across the country.
Also from The Intercept: With Ceasefire Calls Growing, Israeli Military Launches Closed-Door “PR Blitz” on Capitol Hill - The Intercept has learned of around half a dozen events coordinated with Israeli officials during recent weeks — some of them hastily organized.
posted by cendawanita at 6:45 PM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
The local Malay press was presenting a portion of this news as Bibi placing a foundation stone to claim a portion of Gaza, however Times of Israel reports it more like reopening/rebuilding a nearby kibbutz. Their main story with this fact however: Several Gaza border communities refuse to send reps to meeting with Netanyahu
In US: Some Politicians Calling for a “Ceasefire” Are Not Actually Calling for a Ceasefire - As the word “ceasefire” gains currency in Congress, some lawmakers are coupling their calls for peace in Gaza with conditions that cannot be met.
--
Some members of Congress are coupling their calls for a ceasefire with conditions like the removal of Hamas, which is ostensibly Israel’s justification for its brutal campaign against Gaza, while others are using the word in vague statements that leave room for interpretation.
“Calls from members of Congress that demand regime change before there is an end to Israel’s bombardment are calls to extend and prolong a situation in which Israel is killing Palestinian children every single hour,” said Beth Miller of Jewish Voice for Peace, an organization that has co-led massive pro-peace demonstrations across the country.
Also from The Intercept: With Ceasefire Calls Growing, Israeli Military Launches Closed-Door “PR Blitz” on Capitol Hill - The Intercept has learned of around half a dozen events coordinated with Israeli officials during recent weeks — some of them hastily organized.
posted by cendawanita at 6:45 PM on November 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
There's still a ceasefire now. Maybe it ends soon, but I hope it doesn't. I think it's important to celebrate it, like tending a small flame of hope in a very stormy time.
posted by netowl at 6:50 PM on November 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by netowl at 6:50 PM on November 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Water.
UAE to set up three desalination plants for drinking water in Gaza
16 Nov 2023,
Satellite images show Israeli forces hold ground around Gaza City's water facilities
NOVEMBER 10.
Gaza turns to desalination amid increasingly scarce water access
8 September 2023
EU and UNICEF mark the completion of the final phase of the expansion of the Southern Gaza Seawater Desalination plant
05 June 2023
Satellite imagery shows a water plant in Gaza City burned down amid a dire water shortage.
Nov.17.
Disease runs rampant in Gaza as clean water runs out
Nov. 15.
'Despite Possible Attacks, Gaza Plans Half-Billion-Dollar Desalination Plant'
29 August, 2012.
I see a discernible pattern.
posted by clavdivs at 6:58 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
UAE to set up three desalination plants for drinking water in Gaza
16 Nov 2023,
Satellite images show Israeli forces hold ground around Gaza City's water facilities
NOVEMBER 10.
Gaza turns to desalination amid increasingly scarce water access
8 September 2023
EU and UNICEF mark the completion of the final phase of the expansion of the Southern Gaza Seawater Desalination plant
05 June 2023
Satellite imagery shows a water plant in Gaza City burned down amid a dire water shortage.
Nov.17.
Disease runs rampant in Gaza as clean water runs out
Nov. 15.
'Despite Possible Attacks, Gaza Plans Half-Billion-Dollar Desalination Plant'
29 August, 2012.
I see a discernible pattern.
posted by clavdivs at 6:58 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israel has agreed to extend the truce by one day for every 10 militant-held hostages who are freed.
posted by clavdivs at 7:05 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 7:05 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Some of this is really hard to read given that we're talking bout literal babies. Literal babies. Those children were 10 month old infants who were left unattended for over 12 hours in a safe room after their parents were killed. A 10 month old Israeli hostage announced dead today. 1 connection away from me, a 9 month old Palestinian infant killed with her whole family during a bombardment. It's not ok to bomb people's homes and it's not ok to storm people's houses with guns and murder them. Please have some humanity.
posted by bq at 8:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:01 PM on November 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Thanks to the theatre group I did my reading with, I was shared this documentary of the production of the Gaza Monologues that I mentioned above, that we did for Nov 29.
I'll be watching later today. It's only right for me personally, to see the people whose words I read.
There is also a "where are they now" updated list and so many names had "no news heard". One of them, whose monologue I read and was so filled with humour, she died in Ramallah three years ago.
Just thinking about how long this is going on.
I was also shared the preliminary report on 'The Damages To The Cultural Sector During The War On The Gaza Strip' from the period October 7 - November 7, 2023 by Palestinian Ministry of Culture.
posted by cendawanita at 8:06 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'll be watching later today. It's only right for me personally, to see the people whose words I read.
There is also a "where are they now" updated list and so many names had "no news heard". One of them, whose monologue I read and was so filled with humour, she died in Ramallah three years ago.
Just thinking about how long this is going on.
I was also shared the preliminary report on 'The Damages To The Cultural Sector During The War On The Gaza Strip' from the period October 7 - November 7, 2023 by Palestinian Ministry of Culture.
posted by cendawanita at 8:06 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well well well: Saudi Gazette: #VIDEO: #Saudi Foreign Minister Prince @FaisalbinFarhan: Palestinians won’t leave their land. We won't support any agenda promoting their departure.
This Jerusalem Post article (This is why Israel plans to bury hundreds of cars, with ashes and blood stains, with the subheading 'To preserve the sanctity of those murdered by Hamas, for the first time since the establishment of the state, they decided to bury the vehicles.') was commented by Max Blumenthal thus: As evidence of friendly fire killings on October 7 mounts, Israel plans to bury cars containing important forensic evidence which were burned in southern Gaza
It will shred the cars completely before burying them to "be as environment-friendly as possible"
US-side, a Michigan Democrat, disclosed AIPAC had approached him to be another potential challenger for Rashida Tlaib*: Nasser Beydoun - I was offered $20 million to withdraw from the senatorial race and to run against my friend @rashidatlaib. Even knowing where I stand on AIPAC's influence on our elections and foreign policy, the pro-Israel lobby had the nerve to suggest that I would even consider taking a dime from them. This goes to show how easily an election can be bought and paid for in this country. Our country's campaign finance system is broken, and the only people it benefits are the rich and powerful. I will not be bought. I will not back down. I will continue to run a grassroots campaign that puts America and its working class first.
*My autocorrect (normalized for my society) keeps changing it to Talib, which makes me curious - is her name another example of American immigration respelling?.... Hmm will look this up.
posted by cendawanita at 10:05 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
This Jerusalem Post article (This is why Israel plans to bury hundreds of cars, with ashes and blood stains, with the subheading 'To preserve the sanctity of those murdered by Hamas, for the first time since the establishment of the state, they decided to bury the vehicles.') was commented by Max Blumenthal thus: As evidence of friendly fire killings on October 7 mounts, Israel plans to bury cars containing important forensic evidence which were burned in southern Gaza
It will shred the cars completely before burying them to "be as environment-friendly as possible"
US-side, a Michigan Democrat, disclosed AIPAC had approached him to be another potential challenger for Rashida Tlaib*: Nasser Beydoun - I was offered $20 million to withdraw from the senatorial race and to run against my friend @rashidatlaib. Even knowing where I stand on AIPAC's influence on our elections and foreign policy, the pro-Israel lobby had the nerve to suggest that I would even consider taking a dime from them. This goes to show how easily an election can be bought and paid for in this country. Our country's campaign finance system is broken, and the only people it benefits are the rich and powerful. I will not be bought. I will not back down. I will continue to run a grassroots campaign that puts America and its working class first.
*My autocorrect (normalized for my society) keeps changing it to Talib, which makes me curious - is her name another example of American immigration respelling?.... Hmm will look this up.
posted by cendawanita at 10:05 PM on November 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Blumenthal is massively compromised as a commenter on that point. As Haaretz pointed out themselves, he has been heavily hinting (though not stating outright) that the massacre deaths were largely from Israeli fire, but doing this by very selectively quoting and misquoting Haaretz reporting. I cannot take him seriously after that.
It may be that the IDF is planning to coverup a friendly fire incident, or not. He is not the person to weigh in on this.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:22 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It may be that the IDF is planning to coverup a friendly fire incident, or not. He is not the person to weigh in on this.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:22 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree on that part . The car burial news is of note and I was looking on how to understand it.
posted by cendawanita at 10:28 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 10:28 PM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well.... you have to do something with those cars. Scrapping/recycling them is distasteful. Burying them intact is a big expensive endeavour in labour and land. Shredding them makes sense. Whether hiding evidence is an added motivation we will may never know, but it's not weird to do this. Manufacturing additional motivation is unnecessary.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am a left diaspora Jewish supporter of an end to the occupation and full citizenship [somewhere workable inside current Israel/occupied territory borders] for Palestinians in whatever configuration of states negotiation can achieve. I just don't think anyone this cavalier with sources is worth listening to. And I am not into going straight for allegations of bad intent without some kind of supporting evidence.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:28 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
For the avoidance of doubt, I am a left diaspora Jewish supporter of an end to the occupation and full citizenship [somewhere workable inside current Israel/occupied territory borders] for Palestinians in whatever configuration of states negotiation can achieve. I just don't think anyone this cavalier with sources is worth listening to. And I am not into going straight for allegations of bad intent without some kind of supporting evidence.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:28 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Shooting attack in Jerusalem, by two Palestinian men. Which is so tragic because I just finished this Adam Conover podcast episode with Nathan Thrall, director of the Arab-Israeli Project at the International Crisis Group, who's based there and was describing the racist atmosphere he resides in.
posted by cendawanita at 11:54 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:54 PM on November 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Michigan Democrat, disclosed AIPAC had approached him to be another potential challenger for Rashida Tlaib*: Nasser Beydoun - I was offered $20 million to withdraw from
yeah, but you forgot the other candidate who was intially "bribed"
it's Michigan, why bribe one when you can bribe two for twice the price. a lot of this story has been unverified.
posted by clavdivs at 12:26 AM on November 30, 2023
yeah, but you forgot the other candidate who was intially "bribed"
it's Michigan, why bribe one when you can bribe two for twice the price. a lot of this story has been unverified.
posted by clavdivs at 12:26 AM on November 30, 2023
My impression is that the 10/7 attack was intended to cause an Israeli overreaction so as to cause Israel to lose worldwide support. Is this a reasonable interpretation? If so, does Hamas have some responsibility for the destruction in Gaza?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:58 AM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:58 AM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
If so, does Hamas have some responsibility for the destruction in Gaza?
Certainly. Hamas are no more looking out for the Palestinian people and their security than Netanyahu is for Israelis.
posted by Dysk at 1:01 AM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Certainly. Hamas are no more looking out for the Palestinian people and their security than Netanyahu is for Israelis.
posted by Dysk at 1:01 AM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Well.... you have to do something with those cars. Scrapping/recycling them is distasteful.
Perhaps burial at sea?
posted by some loser at 1:09 AM on November 30, 2023
My impression is that the 10/7 attack was intended to cause an Israeli overreaction so as to cause Israel to lose worldwide support.
Almost two months in, and picking up some more details, I think this is very much a second order effect.
The key domestic element that I would like to offer as highlight which does get subsumed in the comments, that I got from the first FPP is as presented in this LRB essay: Exchange Rate by Eyal Weizman - this has been the most trenchant reading for me, even as other dynamics are at play (e.g. internal Hamas politics; politics with the Israeli far-right; the upcoming KSA-led normalization even though the preparation for this took about a year, so well before news of this but who knows, there may be concurrence).
However the conflict ends, with or without Hamas in power (and I bet on the former), Israel won’t be able to avoid negotiating over the exchange of prisoners. For Hamas, the starting point will be the six thousand Palestinians currently in Israeli prisons, many of them held in administrative detention without trial. The capture of Israelis has had a central place in the Palestinian armed struggle throughout the 75 years of conflict. By obtaining hostages the PLO and other groups aimed to force Israel into an implicit recognition of Palestinian nationhood. The Israeli position in the 1960s was to deny that there was such a thing as a Palestinian people, which meant that it was logically impossible to recognise the PLO as their legitimate representative. The denial also meant that there was no need to recognise Palestinian fighters as legitimate combatants under international law, and therefore no need to grant them POW status in line with the Geneva Conventions. Captured Palestinians were held in a legal limbo, much like the ‘unlawful combatants’ of the post-9/11 era.
The retribution was expected but the level of Hamas 'success' that is due to failure and breakdown of Israeli military and intelligence pretty much guaranteed the level of horrific military response. This wasn't planned. What was also not anticipated was the level of difficulty in forming establishment consent in the West. The concord between government and civic messaging didn't happen at all. This level of success was also not anticipated.
posted by cendawanita at 1:15 AM on November 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Almost two months in, and picking up some more details, I think this is very much a second order effect.
The key domestic element that I would like to offer as highlight which does get subsumed in the comments, that I got from the first FPP is as presented in this LRB essay: Exchange Rate by Eyal Weizman - this has been the most trenchant reading for me, even as other dynamics are at play (e.g. internal Hamas politics; politics with the Israeli far-right; the upcoming KSA-led normalization even though the preparation for this took about a year, so well before news of this but who knows, there may be concurrence).
However the conflict ends, with or without Hamas in power (and I bet on the former), Israel won’t be able to avoid negotiating over the exchange of prisoners. For Hamas, the starting point will be the six thousand Palestinians currently in Israeli prisons, many of them held in administrative detention without trial. The capture of Israelis has had a central place in the Palestinian armed struggle throughout the 75 years of conflict. By obtaining hostages the PLO and other groups aimed to force Israel into an implicit recognition of Palestinian nationhood. The Israeli position in the 1960s was to deny that there was such a thing as a Palestinian people, which meant that it was logically impossible to recognise the PLO as their legitimate representative. The denial also meant that there was no need to recognise Palestinian fighters as legitimate combatants under international law, and therefore no need to grant them POW status in line with the Geneva Conventions. Captured Palestinians were held in a legal limbo, much like the ‘unlawful combatants’ of the post-9/11 era.
The retribution was expected but the level of Hamas 'success' that is due to failure and breakdown of Israeli military and intelligence pretty much guaranteed the level of horrific military response. This wasn't planned. What was also not anticipated was the level of difficulty in forming establishment consent in the West. The concord between government and civic messaging didn't happen at all. This level of success was also not anticipated.
posted by cendawanita at 1:15 AM on November 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
and if I were to offer my thoughts as to why that concordance just completely fell apart, I would say that I have observed the recurring military actions in the Gaza Strip (2008; 2014; 2020; 2021) and the West Bank land grab settlement issue have actually been integral in keeping the agenda fresh in organizations who are working on this. Anti-Apartheid work confluencing with pro-Palestinian work confluencing with anti-war activism (of which the negative legacies of 9/11 are still at play; but it also primed people to be less reflexively Islamophobic - this is important - and developing a mental practice of not equating defence of Afghans/Iraqis to that of being pro-ISIS/Taliban) contributed to the situational readiness - people seemed prepared rhetorically as well as materially (strike leadership experience coming into play here too).
posted by cendawanita at 1:22 AM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:22 AM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyway it's clearly Dubya's fault. If the West didn't have to go through the experience of thinking Muslims and people in those territories as people, maybe we'd be having a different conversation. You can pair my comment here with my previous comments on how the global south also have been taking the Occupation and how it resembles their own domestic cases of colonial grievance being leveraged to the injustice and oppression of other people, which is a separate strand.
posted by cendawanita at 1:25 AM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 1:25 AM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
In undisclosed call, Pope Francis warned Israel against committing 'terror' (WaPo gift)
posted by box at 4:24 AM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 4:24 AM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
So many of the responses in that article are tendentious and predictable, and emblematic of why so many of us feel the discourse around this conflict is so oppressive. Pope Francis said that it is forbidden to respond to terror with terror. Straight after, there's a quite suggesting that Francis is suggesting that Israel has no right to defend itself. This is not what he said at all, but it is a common response to any criticism of Israeli military campaigns in Gaza. Anything but pure unrestricted rights to bomb civilians is treated as equivalent to an attack on the very legitimacy of the concept of an Israeli military. It literally equates the killing of civilians by both sides - if it is somehow reasonable to read that as having no right to self-defense, it applies to both parties equally. But somehow it is an anti-Israel position.
...and then there are the calls for "an equal sense of outrage" to deaths on both sides, which overlooks that ten times as many lives have been lost on one side. They are both tragedies, both crimes, but one of those tragedies is ten times bigger (as of now - the ratio is likely to get more extreme). Yet anything other than equal outrage is seen as being anti-Israel.
It is very hard but to come away with a sense that anything other than carte-blanche support for any level of civilian casualties in Israeli military campaigns is siding with the Palestinians against Israel. It is absurd, but this attitude is politically mainstream in much of the anglosphere at the moment.
Killing civilians is bad and evil, regardless of the citizenship or creed or religion of the civilians in question. The IDF have committed - are committing - an atrocity on a greater scale than Hamas did. But it's got to be equal outrage, which it turns out actually means unwavering support for the ongoing military campaign (anything else is inevitably "Israel isn't allowed to defend itself").
It is a toxic discursive environment. I understand that many supporters of Israel feel the same way, but it is hard for me to see that where I am. I see demands for the recognition that Palestinian lives also have value coming up against the most hardline uncompromising insistence on total unconditional support in the mainstream media here, and being treated as at best two equally sensible/dogmatic sides.
posted by Dysk at 5:46 AM on November 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
...and then there are the calls for "an equal sense of outrage" to deaths on both sides, which overlooks that ten times as many lives have been lost on one side. They are both tragedies, both crimes, but one of those tragedies is ten times bigger (as of now - the ratio is likely to get more extreme). Yet anything other than equal outrage is seen as being anti-Israel.
It is very hard but to come away with a sense that anything other than carte-blanche support for any level of civilian casualties in Israeli military campaigns is siding with the Palestinians against Israel. It is absurd, but this attitude is politically mainstream in much of the anglosphere at the moment.
Killing civilians is bad and evil, regardless of the citizenship or creed or religion of the civilians in question. The IDF have committed - are committing - an atrocity on a greater scale than Hamas did. But it's got to be equal outrage, which it turns out actually means unwavering support for the ongoing military campaign (anything else is inevitably "Israel isn't allowed to defend itself").
It is a toxic discursive environment. I understand that many supporters of Israel feel the same way, but it is hard for me to see that where I am. I see demands for the recognition that Palestinian lives also have value coming up against the most hardline uncompromising insistence on total unconditional support in the mainstream media here, and being treated as at best two equally sensible/dogmatic sides.
posted by Dysk at 5:46 AM on November 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
Straight after, there's a qu[o]te suggesting that Francis is suggesting that Israel has no right to defend itself. This is not what he said at all, but it is a common response to any criticism of Israeli military campaigns in Gaza.
Yeah, the thing is: Francis is solidly, solidly, on point here with Catholic just war doctrine:
jus ad bello (justice before the war):
posted by corb at 6:13 AM on November 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yeah, the thing is: Francis is solidly, solidly, on point here with Catholic just war doctrine:
jus ad bello (justice before the war):
"At one and the same time:jus in bello (justice during the war):
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition."
"Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide."There is no way, whatsoever, that the most moral head of the Catholic Church we have had in hundreds of years, was ever going to go against some of the clearest moral imperatives the Catholic Church has to offer, and I don't know what Israel thought it was going to get out of this.
"Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."
posted by corb at 6:13 AM on November 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:21 AM on November 30, 2023 [19 favorites]
The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.
In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
“Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”
According to the investigation, another reason for the large number of targets, and the extensive harm to civilian life in Gaza, is the widespread use of a system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can “generate” targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a “mass assassination factory.”
Hamas attacked a bus stop this morning in Jerusalem (BBC news link). Video of the attack was posted online by NBC news and other outlets. Three civilians killed, more injured. Both attackers were killed by off duty police officers who were first on the scene. Hamas has praised the attack and called for further “escalation of the resistance”.
posted by interogative mood at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2023
I know it's going to be read as a bothsidesing, coming in so soon, but I really was about to share the following links, and also I posted about that Jerusalem shooting earlier today, but I see there're more updates. Ok, the links:
-Four Palestinians, including two children, have been killed by Israeli forces during a raid in the occupied West Bank, Palestinian officials say.
OCHA flash update #54 - (scroll down to West Bank section) Between 7 October and 29 November, 238 Palestinians, including 63 children, were killed in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Of those, 229 were killed by Israeli forces, eight by Israeli settlers and one either by forces or settlers. The seven-week toll represents more than half of all Palestinians killed in the West Bank this year. Already, 2023 has been the deadliest year for Palestinians in the West Bank since OCHA began recording casualties in 2005.
posted by cendawanita at 8:21 AM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
-Four Palestinians, including two children, have been killed by Israeli forces during a raid in the occupied West Bank, Palestinian officials say.
OCHA flash update #54 - (scroll down to West Bank section) Between 7 October and 29 November, 238 Palestinians, including 63 children, were killed in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Of those, 229 were killed by Israeli forces, eight by Israeli settlers and one either by forces or settlers. The seven-week toll represents more than half of all Palestinians killed in the West Bank this year. Already, 2023 has been the deadliest year for Palestinians in the West Bank since OCHA began recording casualties in 2005.
posted by cendawanita at 8:21 AM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Read this morning, this feels like one of the most important stories about the conflict so far and just completely damning. Immediately dispels the bullshit line we keep hearing along the lines of "well you see civilized and moral Israel doesn't INTEND to kill civilians, which differentiates them from the savage brutal terrorist arabs who are fueled only by Jihad, anti-semitism, and bloodlust and nothing else"
From the article:
“When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home"
posted by windbox at 8:27 AM on November 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Read this morning, this feels like one of the most important stories about the conflict so far and just completely damning. Immediately dispels the bullshit line we keep hearing along the lines of "well you see civilized and moral Israel doesn't INTEND to kill civilians, which differentiates them from the savage brutal terrorist arabs who are fueled only by Jihad, anti-semitism, and bloodlust and nothing else"
From the article:
“When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home"
posted by windbox at 8:27 AM on November 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Outside the occupied territories:
- Mouin Rabbani (Jadaliyya co-editor) had a long thread but conveniently Norman Finkelstein just posted a copy on his substack -
About a week ago the US and Israeli suddenly stopped comparing Hamas to ISIS. The term “Hamas-ISIS” had become de rigueur among Israeli officials in their public statements, and along with their partners-in-crime in Washington they often insisted Hamas is worse – much worse even – than ISIS. It’s a familiar playbook. In 2001 the Twin Towers had barely collapsed and Ariel Sharon immediately began insisting the PLO was no different than Al-Qaeda and that Yassir Arafat was worse than Usama Bin Laden. Israel’s flunkies and apologists immediately and dutifully followed suit.
But “Hamas-ISIS” is no longer. Israel’s acolytes have for the most part yet to receive the message, and continue parroting a line that has gone out of style with their leaders, but will probably follow suit at some point within the next 24 months.
So, what happened? Most obviously, the US and Israel have been negotiating, concluding, and implementing a series of agreements with “Hamas-ISIS”. It’s not a particularly good look to be in intensive discussions with, and make one concession after the other to, a movement that is purportedly more vicious and brutal than an organization that not only the West but the international community as well considers entirely beyond the pale. Especially at a time when a broader agreement, extending beyond an exchange of captives, is reportedly being discussed in Doha by the CIA and Mossad chiefs – the city where not only the Qatari mediators but also Hamas’s current and former political leaders, Ismail Haniyyeh and Khalid Mashal, reside.
(that's just an excerpt)
Hanin Majadli (Haaretz): Israel Cannot Blame Antisemitism Alone for Global Condemnation -
Frankly, I don’t know whether all the pro-Palestinian demonstrators have a coherent ideology, whether they support a two-state solution or one state. Maybe they’re just antisemites, and I don’t intend to be their advocate.
But instead of being concerned with all this Judith Butler, Greta Thunberg, and Angelina Jolie, Jewish Voice for Peace, the international left wing, and everything else in existence, Israelis need to ask themselves how things got to this point.
A quick tour of social media will suffice. You can easily get an unfortunate impression of the state of affairs from Israeli public officials’ video translated by Google Translate. Danny Danon, Israel’s former UN ambassador, is suggesting that Gaza’s residents agree to voluntary expulsion.
[...]Over the past decade and a half, the world has marched toward a conversation about occupation, colonialism, and human rights, while in Israel, the common, mainstream discourse has stalled over whether or not there’s such a thing as a Palestinian people.
Young people around the world are opposed to militarism and the military, while their Israeli counterparts have been shifting to the right, becoming more racist and ignorant. That’s the image that Israel projects to the liberal world – a racist, occupying country that has been systematically killing Palestinians for years.
Once Again, Germany Defines Who Is a Jew | Part II -
George Prochnik, Emily Dische-Becker & Eyal Weizman (Granta)
Weizman: Turning to Germany, it seems that Jews are the only ones entitled to historical context, to history, and to trauma. Palestinian history is denied. No recognition of the Palestinians’ ongoing Nakba is publicly allowed (commemorating Nakba Days had already been banned in previous years as matter of state policy). Palestinians are often prohibited by German authorities from demonstrating their grief in vigils for the thousands of Palestinians killed in Gaza. Even calling for ceasefire may be considered antisemitic in Germany. Lecturing, writing, broadcasting about Palestinian rights is restricted. The mere invocation of the notion of ‘context’ to Oct 7th, as the UN Secretary General António Guterres quickly discovered, is presented as ‘relativisation’ of Palestinian violence and thus as antisemitic.
Because only Jewish history is considered acceptable as context, only Israeli violence is legitimate and explicable on moral and pragmatic grounds. The murder of Israelis is a catastrophe that touches the core of many in Germany. Palestinians merely pay a ‘price’, or at best are considered a regrettable collateral.
posted by cendawanita at 8:34 AM on November 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
- Mouin Rabbani (Jadaliyya co-editor) had a long thread but conveniently Norman Finkelstein just posted a copy on his substack -
About a week ago the US and Israeli suddenly stopped comparing Hamas to ISIS. The term “Hamas-ISIS” had become de rigueur among Israeli officials in their public statements, and along with their partners-in-crime in Washington they often insisted Hamas is worse – much worse even – than ISIS. It’s a familiar playbook. In 2001 the Twin Towers had barely collapsed and Ariel Sharon immediately began insisting the PLO was no different than Al-Qaeda and that Yassir Arafat was worse than Usama Bin Laden. Israel’s flunkies and apologists immediately and dutifully followed suit.
But “Hamas-ISIS” is no longer. Israel’s acolytes have for the most part yet to receive the message, and continue parroting a line that has gone out of style with their leaders, but will probably follow suit at some point within the next 24 months.
So, what happened? Most obviously, the US and Israel have been negotiating, concluding, and implementing a series of agreements with “Hamas-ISIS”. It’s not a particularly good look to be in intensive discussions with, and make one concession after the other to, a movement that is purportedly more vicious and brutal than an organization that not only the West but the international community as well considers entirely beyond the pale. Especially at a time when a broader agreement, extending beyond an exchange of captives, is reportedly being discussed in Doha by the CIA and Mossad chiefs – the city where not only the Qatari mediators but also Hamas’s current and former political leaders, Ismail Haniyyeh and Khalid Mashal, reside.
(that's just an excerpt)
Hanin Majadli (Haaretz): Israel Cannot Blame Antisemitism Alone for Global Condemnation -
Frankly, I don’t know whether all the pro-Palestinian demonstrators have a coherent ideology, whether they support a two-state solution or one state. Maybe they’re just antisemites, and I don’t intend to be their advocate.
But instead of being concerned with all this Judith Butler, Greta Thunberg, and Angelina Jolie, Jewish Voice for Peace, the international left wing, and everything else in existence, Israelis need to ask themselves how things got to this point.
A quick tour of social media will suffice. You can easily get an unfortunate impression of the state of affairs from Israeli public officials’ video translated by Google Translate. Danny Danon, Israel’s former UN ambassador, is suggesting that Gaza’s residents agree to voluntary expulsion.
[...]Over the past decade and a half, the world has marched toward a conversation about occupation, colonialism, and human rights, while in Israel, the common, mainstream discourse has stalled over whether or not there’s such a thing as a Palestinian people.
Young people around the world are opposed to militarism and the military, while their Israeli counterparts have been shifting to the right, becoming more racist and ignorant. That’s the image that Israel projects to the liberal world – a racist, occupying country that has been systematically killing Palestinians for years.
Once Again, Germany Defines Who Is a Jew | Part II -
George Prochnik, Emily Dische-Becker & Eyal Weizman (Granta)
Weizman: Turning to Germany, it seems that Jews are the only ones entitled to historical context, to history, and to trauma. Palestinian history is denied. No recognition of the Palestinians’ ongoing Nakba is publicly allowed (commemorating Nakba Days had already been banned in previous years as matter of state policy). Palestinians are often prohibited by German authorities from demonstrating their grief in vigils for the thousands of Palestinians killed in Gaza. Even calling for ceasefire may be considered antisemitic in Germany. Lecturing, writing, broadcasting about Palestinian rights is restricted. The mere invocation of the notion of ‘context’ to Oct 7th, as the UN Secretary General António Guterres quickly discovered, is presented as ‘relativisation’ of Palestinian violence and thus as antisemitic.
Because only Jewish history is considered acceptable as context, only Israeli violence is legitimate and explicable on moral and pragmatic grounds. The murder of Israelis is a catastrophe that touches the core of many in Germany. Palestinians merely pay a ‘price’, or at best are considered a regrettable collateral.
posted by cendawanita at 8:34 AM on November 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Of all the euphamisms we used in war, "collatoral damage" must be the most vile and obscene.
We should be honest and call it "choosing to kill civilians" or "civilians sacrificed for military goals".
Dip Flash I can definitely see why the hypothesis that the world, and especially America's, focus on Israel's treatement of Palestinians is due to antisemitism would be worth investigating.
However, and obviously I'm speaking from my position of privilege here as someone who has never been and never will be the victim of antisemitism, I think there are other probably larger factors at play.
I think the twin facts that Israel/Palestine is the only place where there is significant violence between the colonized and colonizers today and the fact that Israel has a relatively free press (so far) are more relevant.
There aren't big native American resistence groups fighting a guerrilla war against the USA. In fact, the most recent example of that would be in 1977 and Leonard Peltier maintains he didn't actually shoot the dead FBI agents. He's in prison currently and maintains he is a political prisoner.
Similarly there hasn't been a major Black resistance movement using guerrilla tactics and large scale violence. The most recent example of that was also in 1977 and Assata Shakur fled to Cuba where she remains to this day.
Both Shakur and Peltier recieved moderate support from the left at the time and you do still see occasional posters, leaflets, etc in support of them at leftist rallies.
China is committing genocide, along with mass rape and torture, of the Uyghur people in Xinjiang, but has maintained a tight news blackout which prevents the sort of video and photos that engage mass numbers of people from getting out. Additionally it's a somewhat different sort of event since China is more seeking control of Xinjiang and repression of an inconvenient ethno-religious group rather than seeking to occupy and "settle" land in Xinjiang by displacing mass numbers of Uyghurs so that Han settlers can occupy their land. Which doesn't make it any better but does make it a different sort of conflict.
I suspect also that Israel's public relations efforts have added to the difference. There's a sort of paternalistic orientalism that tends to make people in the West write off the PRC committing genocide as one of those inscrutable Asian things and anyway isn't the PRC a commie dictatorship so what do you expect?
But Israel bills itself as the only democracy in the Middle East and uses its proclimations of Western values as part of its efforts to gain international support, aid, weapons, and so on. Therefore Israel puts itself in the postion of having Westerners judge it by Western standards while the PRC gets a bit of a pass based on racism.
But mostly I think it's just that the Palestinians are fighting and killing Israelites and that makes for a more dynamic and attractive to media sort of thing than the PRC engaging in mostly one sided violence against the Ughyer people.
And outside Xinjiang and Israel there just aren't many other major instances of an indigenous people employing violence against their colonizers.
Even more important from a news coverage and leftist engagement standpoint, at least in the anglosphere, the US is a major player in the Israel/Palestine conflict which is goin to draw in American interest in a way that you just don't see for conflicts where America and large amounts of American money and weapons are involved.
I also suspect the longevity of the conflict is a big contributing factror. There has been armed conflict, killings, atrocities, and war crimes going on in Israel since the 1940's. Most of the world's population has grown up with Israel/Palestine as part of their awareness of world events.
I was seven when I first became really aware of the Israel/Palestine conflict, I'm 48, almost 49, now and it's always been there.
When a war/conflict/ethnic cleansing/whatever has been going on for a person's entire life it tends to take up more space in their mind than other world events might.
I can't say for sure that antisemitism doesn't play a role in the prominance of Israel/Palestine in the minds of people outside Israel. Given how pervasive antisemitism is I'm sure it is a factor for at least some of it.
But I think other, non-antisemitic, forces are at work as well, and have a bigger role to play.
posted by sotonohito at 8:38 AM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
We should be honest and call it "choosing to kill civilians" or "civilians sacrificed for military goals".
Dip Flash I can definitely see why the hypothesis that the world, and especially America's, focus on Israel's treatement of Palestinians is due to antisemitism would be worth investigating.
However, and obviously I'm speaking from my position of privilege here as someone who has never been and never will be the victim of antisemitism, I think there are other probably larger factors at play.
I think the twin facts that Israel/Palestine is the only place where there is significant violence between the colonized and colonizers today and the fact that Israel has a relatively free press (so far) are more relevant.
There aren't big native American resistence groups fighting a guerrilla war against the USA. In fact, the most recent example of that would be in 1977 and Leonard Peltier maintains he didn't actually shoot the dead FBI agents. He's in prison currently and maintains he is a political prisoner.
Similarly there hasn't been a major Black resistance movement using guerrilla tactics and large scale violence. The most recent example of that was also in 1977 and Assata Shakur fled to Cuba where she remains to this day.
Both Shakur and Peltier recieved moderate support from the left at the time and you do still see occasional posters, leaflets, etc in support of them at leftist rallies.
China is committing genocide, along with mass rape and torture, of the Uyghur people in Xinjiang, but has maintained a tight news blackout which prevents the sort of video and photos that engage mass numbers of people from getting out. Additionally it's a somewhat different sort of event since China is more seeking control of Xinjiang and repression of an inconvenient ethno-religious group rather than seeking to occupy and "settle" land in Xinjiang by displacing mass numbers of Uyghurs so that Han settlers can occupy their land. Which doesn't make it any better but does make it a different sort of conflict.
I suspect also that Israel's public relations efforts have added to the difference. There's a sort of paternalistic orientalism that tends to make people in the West write off the PRC committing genocide as one of those inscrutable Asian things and anyway isn't the PRC a commie dictatorship so what do you expect?
But Israel bills itself as the only democracy in the Middle East and uses its proclimations of Western values as part of its efforts to gain international support, aid, weapons, and so on. Therefore Israel puts itself in the postion of having Westerners judge it by Western standards while the PRC gets a bit of a pass based on racism.
But mostly I think it's just that the Palestinians are fighting and killing Israelites and that makes for a more dynamic and attractive to media sort of thing than the PRC engaging in mostly one sided violence against the Ughyer people.
And outside Xinjiang and Israel there just aren't many other major instances of an indigenous people employing violence against their colonizers.
Even more important from a news coverage and leftist engagement standpoint, at least in the anglosphere, the US is a major player in the Israel/Palestine conflict which is goin to draw in American interest in a way that you just don't see for conflicts where America and large amounts of American money and weapons are involved.
I also suspect the longevity of the conflict is a big contributing factror. There has been armed conflict, killings, atrocities, and war crimes going on in Israel since the 1940's. Most of the world's population has grown up with Israel/Palestine as part of their awareness of world events.
I was seven when I first became really aware of the Israel/Palestine conflict, I'm 48, almost 49, now and it's always been there.
When a war/conflict/ethnic cleansing/whatever has been going on for a person's entire life it tends to take up more space in their mind than other world events might.
I can't say for sure that antisemitism doesn't play a role in the prominance of Israel/Palestine in the minds of people outside Israel. Given how pervasive antisemitism is I'm sure it is a factor for at least some of it.
But I think other, non-antisemitic, forces are at work as well, and have a bigger role to play.
posted by sotonohito at 8:38 AM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Good sharp op-ed in the LA Times; not news to folks who've been following these threads here but a useful quick overview to share: Why does Israel have so many Palestinians in detention and available to swap?
Far more Palestinians have been arrested since the Oct. 7 attacks in Israel than have been released in the last week. Among those being held are dozens of women and scores of children...
The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see...
Israeli settlers and Palestinians live in the same territory, but are tried in different courts under different laws with different due process rights and face different sentences for the same offense. The result is a large and growing number of Palestinians imprisoned without basic due process.
posted by mediareport at 8:57 AM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Far more Palestinians have been arrested since the Oct. 7 attacks in Israel than have been released in the last week. Among those being held are dozens of women and scores of children...
The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see...
Israeli settlers and Palestinians live in the same territory, but are tried in different courts under different laws with different due process rights and face different sentences for the same offense. The result is a large and growing number of Palestinians imprisoned without basic due process.
posted by mediareport at 8:57 AM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
I really am sorry that this is only available on video with no transcript or written copy of the script anyway, but journalist Owen Jones reported on what he watched from the video IDF and the Israeli government has prepared.
TL;DR he's not changed his opinion on the current post-Oct 7 actions and the later half of this 25-min video was mainly his commentary and tying it to his experience living thru the Balkans war in the 1990s, and he noted that the footage was horrific but none of it actually show the topline claims that had been made, noting the lack of footage doesn't deny the possibility but considering the purpose of the video and the claim that this video was edited from thousands of hours of GoPro and CCTV footage. He wants to see all this footage is verified independently.
The claims that've been repeated and he said were not in the video:
- beheaded babies.
- Hamas killing children.
- rape (or aftermath)
- beheading humans alive.*
- indiscriminate shooting as policy: some Hamas asked Israeli partygoers if they were soldiers or civilians, and some more said to save the bullets for the soldiers.
* There are telephone calls to play heads like footballs but audio material have been heavily doubted so far
posted by cendawanita at 9:08 AM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
TL;DR he's not changed his opinion on the current post-Oct 7 actions and the later half of this 25-min video was mainly his commentary and tying it to his experience living thru the Balkans war in the 1990s, and he noted that the footage was horrific but none of it actually show the topline claims that had been made, noting the lack of footage doesn't deny the possibility but considering the purpose of the video and the claim that this video was edited from thousands of hours of GoPro and CCTV footage. He wants to see all this footage is verified independently.
The claims that've been repeated and he said were not in the video:
- beheaded babies.
- Hamas killing children.
- rape (or aftermath)
- beheading humans alive.*
- indiscriminate shooting as policy: some Hamas asked Israeli partygoers if they were soldiers or civilians, and some more said to save the bullets for the soldiers.
* There are telephone calls to play heads like footballs but audio material have been heavily doubted so far
posted by cendawanita at 9:08 AM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have little doubt that there were sexual assaults during the massacre on 10/7; there's at least one survivor who has said she saw Hamas soldiers raping a woman (and another survivor who says he heard her describe it at the time), and there are more testimonies being collected. This Ha'aretz article [archive] goes into detail about why there's little forensic evidence of sexual assault on the bodies - the very few forensic pathologists in Israel were overwhelmed by the vast number of corpses, and the Zaka volunteers who collected remains were primarily focused on quick identification and burial, e.g.
There's been a range of reports about how the Hamas terrorists treated victims who survived the initial slaughter, with some saying they were told they wouldn't be harmed, and weren't mistreated, and others reporting the worst that humans are capable of. That there were apparently 2 waves of attackers, the Hamas soldiers and then a second wave of criminals who came through the open fences, also complicates the story.
posted by mediareport at 9:34 AM on November 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
There's been a range of reports about how the Hamas terrorists treated victims who survived the initial slaughter, with some saying they were told they wouldn't be harmed, and weren't mistreated, and others reporting the worst that humans are capable of. That there were apparently 2 waves of attackers, the Hamas soldiers and then a second wave of criminals who came through the open fences, also complicates the story.
posted by mediareport at 9:34 AM on November 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
NYT 11/12/23 "What We Know About the Death Toll in Israel From the Hamas-Led Attacks":
On Oct. 7, scores of Hamas gunmen swept into Israeli towns and military bases near the border with Gaza, opening fire on people in their homes, on the streets, and at a music festival. The attackers fatally shot the elderly, women and young children, according to survivors; others were burned after attackers set their homes ablaze.posted by gwint at 10:30 AM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
The vast majority of those killed in the Oct. 7 assault — around 70 percent — have been identified as civilians, not soldiers, by Israeli authorities. According to Israeli police, health officials have identified at least 846 civilians killed in the fighting.
The vast majority of those killed in the Oct. 7 assault — around 70 percent — have been identified as civilians, not soldiers
So according to Israel, Hamas is actually a more moral military force than the USA or at least has a better kill/warcrime ratio?
Like when the USA air strikes a wedding party killing 100+ people, I don't think more than 30 of them were actual targets right?
posted by Iax at 10:41 AM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
So according to Israel, Hamas is actually a more moral military force than the USA or at least has a better kill/warcrime ratio?
Like when the USA air strikes a wedding party killing 100+ people, I don't think more than 30 of them were actual targets right?
posted by Iax at 10:41 AM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
ISW report.
China proposed a peace plan for the Middle East that is tantamount to Israeli defeat. Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi presented a four-point plan for Middle East peace to the UN Security Council. The plan aims in part to revitalize the political prospects for the two-state solution.[35] Wang told the council that there needs to be a lasting cease-fire and that those held hostage should be released, although he offered no specifics.[36] Wang said Palestinians' right to statehood and "right to return” has long been ignored.[37] The Chinese proposal does not address the future governance of Gaza, specifically whether Hamas should be allowed to continue ruling the enclave, or the demilitarization of Gaza, nor does it address Israeli concerns about their own security against future attacks such as the October 7 assault.
The United States delivered humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and plans to continue similar shipments after the humanitarian pause ends. US Central Command confirmed on November 28 that it supported USAID efforts to increase the flow of assistance into the Gaza Strip.[38] Two US senior officials told reporters that the United States expects the increased levels of humanitarian aid and fuel entering the Gaza Strip will continue after the pause ends.[39] The United Nations continued to operate in the Gaza Strip, including in the northern Gaza Strip, on November 29.[40]
An Iranian drone conducted “unsafe and unprofessional actions" near US aircraft carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower in the Persian Gulf on November 28.[57] US Naval Forces Central Command reported that the drone came within 1,500 yards of the Eisenhower and that Iran ignored multiple hails and warnings. IRGC Navy Commander Rear Admiral Ali Reza Tangsiri called on the US Navy to “behave rationally” in the Persian Gulf in an interview with Iranian state TV on November 26.[58] CTP-ISW recently assessed that the IRGC may have conducted a one-way drone attack on an Israeli-owned, Malta-flagged freighter in the Persian Gulf on November 24.[59]
Saudi Arabia offered to increase investments in the Iranian economy if Iran reins in its proxies and prevents the Israel-Hamas war from turning into a regional conflict, according to Arab and Western officials.[61] The officials told Bloomberg that Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman discussed “the possibility of deeper engagement” during their meeting on the sidelines of the joint Arab League-Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) conference in Jeddah on November 11. Bloomberg reported that Saudi Arabia is simultaneously working with the United States to prevent Iran from exploiting the Israel-Hamas war to strengthen its Axis of Resistance.
posted by clavdivs at 12:51 PM on November 30, 2023
China proposed a peace plan for the Middle East that is tantamount to Israeli defeat. Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi presented a four-point plan for Middle East peace to the UN Security Council. The plan aims in part to revitalize the political prospects for the two-state solution.[35] Wang told the council that there needs to be a lasting cease-fire and that those held hostage should be released, although he offered no specifics.[36] Wang said Palestinians' right to statehood and "right to return” has long been ignored.[37] The Chinese proposal does not address the future governance of Gaza, specifically whether Hamas should be allowed to continue ruling the enclave, or the demilitarization of Gaza, nor does it address Israeli concerns about their own security against future attacks such as the October 7 assault.
The United States delivered humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and plans to continue similar shipments after the humanitarian pause ends. US Central Command confirmed on November 28 that it supported USAID efforts to increase the flow of assistance into the Gaza Strip.[38] Two US senior officials told reporters that the United States expects the increased levels of humanitarian aid and fuel entering the Gaza Strip will continue after the pause ends.[39] The United Nations continued to operate in the Gaza Strip, including in the northern Gaza Strip, on November 29.[40]
An Iranian drone conducted “unsafe and unprofessional actions" near US aircraft carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower in the Persian Gulf on November 28.[57] US Naval Forces Central Command reported that the drone came within 1,500 yards of the Eisenhower and that Iran ignored multiple hails and warnings. IRGC Navy Commander Rear Admiral Ali Reza Tangsiri called on the US Navy to “behave rationally” in the Persian Gulf in an interview with Iranian state TV on November 26.[58] CTP-ISW recently assessed that the IRGC may have conducted a one-way drone attack on an Israeli-owned, Malta-flagged freighter in the Persian Gulf on November 24.[59]
Saudi Arabia offered to increase investments in the Iranian economy if Iran reins in its proxies and prevents the Israel-Hamas war from turning into a regional conflict, according to Arab and Western officials.[61] The officials told Bloomberg that Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman discussed “the possibility of deeper engagement” during their meeting on the sidelines of the joint Arab League-Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) conference in Jeddah on November 11. Bloomberg reported that Saudi Arabia is simultaneously working with the United States to prevent Iran from exploiting the Israel-Hamas war to strengthen its Axis of Resistance.
posted by clavdivs at 12:51 PM on November 30, 2023
Mod note: One comment deleted. Please don't include graphic descriptions of sexual assault without a clear content warning and consider whether a link would be sufficient. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:00 PM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:00 PM on November 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Asymmetrical warfare doesn’t always manifest itself as guerilla warfare. Terrorism is the ugliest form of protest. Don’t confuse terrorism with some demented fool with a semi-automatic weapon who thinks shooting up a school is a good idea.
My framing is simple. I admit to oversimplification.
Historically no nation ever took the Palestinian’s “right to exist” (as a nation) seriously. Palestinians have existed as a culture for millennia. Palestine has been governed by a series of foreign nations, from the Ottoman Turks to Egypt to Great Britain, and now by Israel. Israel has taken Palestinian ancestral lands both legally and illegally. IDF troops have been dispatched to protect usurping Israeli civilians. Palestinians have no legal recourse.
Israel’s solution to the current situation is to “wipe out Hamas,” whatever that’s supposed to mean. When that nebulous goal is achieved, Palestine will be administered by some undefined coalition of Arab nations. The Palestinian Authority would be considered illegal. Palestinians would not have any voice in this “solution.”
The last paragraph comes from a conversation I heard last night between a liberal talking-head and a former member of the Israeli government. I believe her views to be a fair representation of Netanyahu’s regime.
Jus ad Bellum. The right for a nation to defend itself—a just war.
Yeah, it sounds good, and I have some experience working under that premise. My job was to help a small country defend itself against World Communism. I bought into that idea when I was eighteen years old. As it turned out, that theory was pretty much grounded in bullshit. However, I admit that the notion of a “Just war” is valid. Ukraine’s struggle against Putin is a current example. I can’t point to much in the history of my country (The USA) as a shining example of that theory.
Jus in Bello.
The rules governing government policy, and especially the actions of those lucky enough to be given the jobs of dropping the bombs, firing off their artillery, and engaging in close combat.
I find it hard to explain how bizarre things get when the shooting starts, so I won’t go there, except to say that bad acts from one side don’t excuse reciprocation in kind from the other.
Parenthetically, I hope few MeFites buy into the concept of surgical air or artillery strikes. The mention of the use of bombs weighing only 500 pounds instead of much heavier ones made me laugh out loud. “Collateral damage” is a sanitized version of a grisly concept. It means dead civilians, women and kids, destroyed property, and survivors fleeing from the wreckage of their entire way of life to face degradation, hunger, and an abiding, relentless fear. Anyhow, context is everything. If Israel has a right to exist, then so does Palestine have a right to exist. They also has a right to be free of the oppression they’ve experienced at the hands of the Israeli government.
I do not support Hamas’ awful tactics. I do not support Israel’s awful response nor their callus treatment of Palestinians: naked greed under the guise of national security. This isn’t war; it’s madness. It’s nothing less than mutually organized war crimes.
posted by mule98J at 1:27 PM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
My framing is simple. I admit to oversimplification.
Historically no nation ever took the Palestinian’s “right to exist” (as a nation) seriously. Palestinians have existed as a culture for millennia. Palestine has been governed by a series of foreign nations, from the Ottoman Turks to Egypt to Great Britain, and now by Israel. Israel has taken Palestinian ancestral lands both legally and illegally. IDF troops have been dispatched to protect usurping Israeli civilians. Palestinians have no legal recourse.
Israel’s solution to the current situation is to “wipe out Hamas,” whatever that’s supposed to mean. When that nebulous goal is achieved, Palestine will be administered by some undefined coalition of Arab nations. The Palestinian Authority would be considered illegal. Palestinians would not have any voice in this “solution.”
The last paragraph comes from a conversation I heard last night between a liberal talking-head and a former member of the Israeli government. I believe her views to be a fair representation of Netanyahu’s regime.
Jus ad Bellum. The right for a nation to defend itself—a just war.
Yeah, it sounds good, and I have some experience working under that premise. My job was to help a small country defend itself against World Communism. I bought into that idea when I was eighteen years old. As it turned out, that theory was pretty much grounded in bullshit. However, I admit that the notion of a “Just war” is valid. Ukraine’s struggle against Putin is a current example. I can’t point to much in the history of my country (The USA) as a shining example of that theory.
Jus in Bello.
The rules governing government policy, and especially the actions of those lucky enough to be given the jobs of dropping the bombs, firing off their artillery, and engaging in close combat.
I find it hard to explain how bizarre things get when the shooting starts, so I won’t go there, except to say that bad acts from one side don’t excuse reciprocation in kind from the other.
Parenthetically, I hope few MeFites buy into the concept of surgical air or artillery strikes. The mention of the use of bombs weighing only 500 pounds instead of much heavier ones made me laugh out loud. “Collateral damage” is a sanitized version of a grisly concept. It means dead civilians, women and kids, destroyed property, and survivors fleeing from the wreckage of their entire way of life to face degradation, hunger, and an abiding, relentless fear. Anyhow, context is everything. If Israel has a right to exist, then so does Palestine have a right to exist. They also has a right to be free of the oppression they’ve experienced at the hands of the Israeli government.
I do not support Hamas’ awful tactics. I do not support Israel’s awful response nor their callus treatment of Palestinians: naked greed under the guise of national security. This isn’t war; it’s madness. It’s nothing less than mutually organized war crimes.
posted by mule98J at 1:27 PM on November 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Thank you, mule98J
sometimes the thread gets caught up in angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin exchanges on what constitutes terrorism vs. war crimes, whether we're witnessing apartheid technically, etc.
This isn't war; it's madness says it all.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:35 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
sometimes the thread gets caught up in angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin exchanges on what constitutes terrorism vs. war crimes, whether we're witnessing apartheid technically, etc.
This isn't war; it's madness says it all.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:35 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Other journalists have described the footage compiled by the IDF very differently than the. Graeme Wood of The Atlantic on CBC , Barry White ITV (Ireland) Note: these links do not show events, but seem to contradict Jones' comments about no children being killed. Other evidence such as the photographs from Israel's forensic pathology lab have shown some particularly horrific stuff that you can google if you have doubts. Israel is still attempting to identify the dead. According to The New York Times at least 70% of those killed on October 7th were civilians. . Because of the mutilation of corpses including dismemberment and burning multiple people bound together pathologists are still attempting to figure out exactly who and how many people died.
posted by interogative mood at 2:19 PM on November 30, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 2:19 PM on November 30, 2023
My impression is that the 10/7 attack was intended to cause an Israeli overreaction so as to cause Israel to lose worldwide support. Is this a reasonable interpretation?I have no knowledge about whether it's correct or not. I guess it seems at least somewhat plausible, but that may just be 20/20 hindsight. But in any case...
If so, does Hamas have some responsibility for the destruction in Gaza?Of course Hamas has some responsibility for the destruction in Gaza. There's no "if so" about it.
posted by Flunkie at 2:47 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Of course Hamas has some responsibility for the destruction in Gaza. There's no "if so" about it.
By that metric Israel bears some responsibility for what happened on October 7th.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:05 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
By that metric Israel bears some responsibility for what happened on October 7th.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:05 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
As long as we're talking about the government thereof, and also not implying that either October 7th or the subsequent actions in Gaza were or are deserved, I have no issue with that thought.
There's a lot of responsibility here for a lot of very bad things to go around, for a long long time. "X is totally responsible for specific thing Y, A bears no responsibility for Y at all" and "A is totally responsible for specific thing B, X bears no responsibility for B at all" seems to me like an overly simplistic, reductionist mode of thought for something of this complexity and history.
posted by Flunkie at 3:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's a lot of responsibility here for a lot of very bad things to go around, for a long long time. "X is totally responsible for specific thing Y, A bears no responsibility for Y at all" and "A is totally responsible for specific thing B, X bears no responsibility for B at all" seems to me like an overly simplistic, reductionist mode of thought for something of this complexity and history.
posted by Flunkie at 3:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel Considers How to Remove Threat of Hamas Fighters in Gaza
WSJ gift link about options being discussed by various observers as the US pressures Israel to not resume heavy bombing of the civilians in the South. Options include exiling low-level Hamas fighters and their families to another country, as was done with the PLO in Lebanon in 1982, and creating a "Gaza Restoration Authority" backed by the Saudis and UAE. All of the options have enormous obstacles, including lack of trust.
posted by mediareport at 3:30 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
WSJ gift link about options being discussed by various observers as the US pressures Israel to not resume heavy bombing of the civilians in the South. Options include exiling low-level Hamas fighters and their families to another country, as was done with the PLO in Lebanon in 1982, and creating a "Gaza Restoration Authority" backed by the Saudis and UAE. All of the options have enormous obstacles, including lack of trust.
posted by mediareport at 3:30 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
As long as we're talking about the government thereof, and also not implying that either October 7th or the subsequent actions in Gaza were or are deserved, I have no issue with that thought.
No-one deserves to be kidnapped, raped, or murdered. However the Israeli government's ongoing mistreatment of the Palestinian population it keeps under occupation and continued building of illegal settlements and continuing random atrocities committed by settlers in the West Bank are just adding tinder to a pile that's awaiting a spark.
I am curious what "complexity" you're talking about, though. I keep seeing people refer to the "complexity of the situation", which looks pretty simple, in all honesty? Israel displaced the Palestinians in an act of ethnic cleansing, and continues to oppress them through a system of apartheid, forced displacement, and collective punishment. "It's complex" seems like a way of eliding that by avoiding assigning blame.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:08 PM on November 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Other journalists have described the footage compiled by the IDF very differently than the. Graeme Wood of The Atlantic on CBC , Barry White ITV (Ireland) Note: these links do not show events, but seem to contradict Jones' comments about no children being killed.
Yes, he mentioned the disagreement - definitely there was footage of dead children, according to him, but none being killed, is the distinction. And he mentioned calling another attendee to validate his recollection. Then he mentioned a Rolling Stone article, which I tracked down, and quoted this bit: Throughout the screening, the audience at the Peltz Theater could be heard gasping, moaning, and exclaiming, “Oh, my God.” Before long, the sound of sobbing filled the space. Yet, at the conclusion, as some rushed to the exits, describing their horror at the images they witnessed onscreen, at least one attendee was unsatisfied. “Show the rape, show the beheading of babies, the world needs to see it!” he bellowed while leaving. “Shut up, go outside!” a woman answered. Another woman angrily replied, “He’s right!”
(Also, I don't know if this is deliberate to choose the title "bearing witness" for the video but while syahid/syuhada is often translated as martyrs - eg how Palestinians described their dead - it basically means witness. The same root word for the Islamic proclamation of faith, Shahadah. But considering the religious dimension that has characterized both sides especially in recent decades, I won't be surprised to see the inclination to dip into that direction)
posted by cendawanita at 5:11 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, he mentioned the disagreement - definitely there was footage of dead children, according to him, but none being killed, is the distinction. And he mentioned calling another attendee to validate his recollection. Then he mentioned a Rolling Stone article, which I tracked down, and quoted this bit: Throughout the screening, the audience at the Peltz Theater could be heard gasping, moaning, and exclaiming, “Oh, my God.” Before long, the sound of sobbing filled the space. Yet, at the conclusion, as some rushed to the exits, describing their horror at the images they witnessed onscreen, at least one attendee was unsatisfied. “Show the rape, show the beheading of babies, the world needs to see it!” he bellowed while leaving. “Shut up, go outside!” a woman answered. Another woman angrily replied, “He’s right!”
(Also, I don't know if this is deliberate to choose the title "bearing witness" for the video but while syahid/syuhada is often translated as martyrs - eg how Palestinians described their dead - it basically means witness. The same root word for the Islamic proclamation of faith, Shahadah. But considering the religious dimension that has characterized both sides especially in recent decades, I won't be surprised to see the inclination to dip into that direction)
posted by cendawanita at 5:11 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I keep seeing people refer to the "complexity of the situation", which looks pretty simple, in all honesty?
Complexity of the situation means you don't have to choose between "It was the UK's fault" and "It's Israel's fault" IMO.
posted by corb at 5:16 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Complexity of the situation means you don't have to choose between "It was the UK's fault" and "It's Israel's fault" IMO.
posted by corb at 5:16 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
one of the major tenants of asymmetrical warfare is that underlying cultural and political foundations are complex, in this case we have a state actor and a non-state actor one more powerful than the other.
that's not very complex. it's also not very complex to acknowledge that terrorism is one aspect of asymmetrical warfare it's just a tactic not an overall strategy.
praeteritum est prologus.
that's the complexity. it's almost near impossible to use chronology in this conflict starting from October 7th to the current date because it's just a stated timeline of these actions that don't give any context to their meaning or why they were orchestrated.
but it's a starting point for current accountability for the actions taken by either side. I have no patience, no respect for Hamas as theirr future is pretty much decided but when Israel releases it's death grip and opens it's hands and sees the blood run, it will have to account for their actions.
TEL AVIV—Israel and Hamas agreed to extend a temporary truce in Gaza for an eighth day, Egyptian officials said Thursday, in a deal that is expected to involve the release of another 10 hostages, mostly women and children.
posted by clavdivs at 5:26 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
that's not very complex. it's also not very complex to acknowledge that terrorism is one aspect of asymmetrical warfare it's just a tactic not an overall strategy.
praeteritum est prologus.
that's the complexity. it's almost near impossible to use chronology in this conflict starting from October 7th to the current date because it's just a stated timeline of these actions that don't give any context to their meaning or why they were orchestrated.
but it's a starting point for current accountability for the actions taken by either side. I have no patience, no respect for Hamas as theirr future is pretty much decided but when Israel releases it's death grip and opens it's hands and sees the blood run, it will have to account for their actions.
TEL AVIV—Israel and Hamas agreed to extend a temporary truce in Gaza for an eighth day, Egyptian officials said Thursday, in a deal that is expected to involve the release of another 10 hostages, mostly women and children.
posted by clavdivs at 5:26 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
"It was the UK's fault"
Ultimately a lot of the intrinsic fuckedupness of the modern world can be traced back to that particular source (in Africa and Asia as well as the Middle East).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:27 PM on November 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ultimately a lot of the intrinsic fuckedupness of the modern world can be traced back to that particular source (in Africa and Asia as well as the Middle East).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:27 PM on November 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Antisemitism, global and regional, is a complicating factor, I don’t know if it is the one being specifically referenced above. As what’s been referenced several times in this very thread, the existence of an extremely widespread and deeply rooted ideology of hatred makes it very difficult to voice genuine criticism without helping empower bad actors, while that same reality offers a handy shield for a completely different set of bad actors to protect their activities from said criticisms.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:30 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:30 PM on November 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Disease could kill more in Gaza than bombs, WHO says amid Israeli siege
Gaza’s limited water access, mapped
as I see it the Gaza water problem is huge and immense and will not be solved without the assistance of Israel at one point and I fear it will take a larger power to convince Israel to participate in this endeavor which leds me the conclusion that other countries will have to step in to revitalize the area and perhaps to keep the peace.
posted by clavdivs at 5:35 PM on November 30, 2023
Gaza’s limited water access, mapped
as I see it the Gaza water problem is huge and immense and will not be solved without the assistance of Israel at one point and I fear it will take a larger power to convince Israel to participate in this endeavor which leds me the conclusion that other countries will have to step in to revitalize the area and perhaps to keep the peace.
posted by clavdivs at 5:35 PM on November 30, 2023
'Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago: A blueprint reviewed by The Times laid out the attack in detail. Israeli officials dismissed it as aspirational and ignored specific warnings.' (NYT gift link)
posted by mittens at 5:43 PM on November 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:43 PM on November 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Antisemitism, global and regional, is a complicating factor
Not particularly, insofar as it is not the motivation behind Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians. It's a justification for the necessity of Israel as a Jewish state, said supposed necessity being used to excuse the ethnic cleansing as just the eggs that had to be broken to make this particular omelette.
The late Tony Judt wrote the following 20 years ago, and in broad outlines it still applies to the present situation, IMO:
The time has come to think the unthinkable. The "two-state solution"--the core of the Oslo process and the present "road map"--is probably already doomed. With every passing year we are postponing an inevitable, harder choice that only the far right and far left have so far acknowledged, each for its own reasons. The true alternative facing the Middle East in coming years will be between an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel and a single, integrated, binational state of Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians. That is indeed how the hard-liners in Sharon's cabinet see the choice; and that is why they anticipate the removal of the Arabs as the ineluctable condition for the survival of a Jewish state.
But what if there were no place in the world today for a "Jewish state"? What if the binational solution were not just increasingly likely, but actually a desirable outcome? It is not such a very odd thought. Most of the readers of this essay live in pluralist states which have long since become multiethnic and multicultural. "Christian Europe," pace M. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, is a dead letter; Western civilization today is a patchwork of colors and religions and languages, of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Indians, and many others--as any visitor to London or Paris or Geneva will know.[4]
Israel itself is a multicultural society in all but name; yet it remains distinctive among democratic states in its resort to ethnoreligious criteria with which to denominate and rank its citizens. It is an oddity among modern nations not, as its more paranoid supporters assert, because it is a Jewish state and no one wants the Jews to have a state; but because it is a Jewish state in which one community--Jews--is set above others, in an age when that sort of state has no place.
For many years, Israel had a special meaning for the Jewish people. After 1948 it took in hundreds of thousands of helpless survivors who had nowhere else to go; without Israel their condition would have been desperate in the extreme. Israel needed Jews, and Jews needed Israel. The circumstances of its birth have thus bound Israel's identity inextricably to the Shoah, the German project to exterminate the Jews of Europe. As a result, all criticism of Israel is drawn ineluctably back to the memory of that project, something that Israel's American apologists are shamefully quick to exploit. To find fault with the Jewish state is to think ill of Jews; even to imagine an alternative configuration in the Middle East is to indulge the moral equivalent of genocide.
In the years after World War II, those many millions of Jews who did not live in Israel were often reassured by its very existence—whether they thought of it as an insurance policy against renascent anti-Semitism or simply a reminder to the world that Jews could and would fight back. Before there was a Jewish state, Jewish minorities in Christian societies would peer anxiously over their shoulders and keep a low profile; since 1948, they could walk tall. But in recent years, the situation has tragically reversed.
Today, non-Israeli Jews feel themselves once again exposed to criticism and vulnerable to attack for things they didn't do. But this time it is a Jewish state, not a Christian one, which is holding them hostage for its own actions. Diaspora Jews cannot influence Israeli policies, but they are implicitly identified with them, not least by Israel's own insistent claims upon their allegiance. The behavior of a self-described Jewish state affects the way everyone else looks at Jews. The increased incidence of attacks on Jews in Europe and elsewhere is primarily attributable to misdirected efforts, often by young Muslims, to get back at Israel. The depressing truth is that Israel's current behavior is not just bad for America, though it surely is. It is not even just bad for Israel itself, as many Israelis silently acknowledge. The depressing truth is that Israel today is bad for the Jews.
In a world where nations and peoples increasingly intermingle and intermarry at will; where cultural and national impediments to communication have all but collapsed; where more and more of us have multiple elective identities and would feel falsely constrained if we had to answer to just one of them; in such a world Israel is truly an anachronism. And not just an anachronism but a dysfunctional one. In today's "clash of cultures" between open, pluralist democracies and belligerently intolerant, faith-driven ethno-states, Israel actually risks falling into the wrong camp.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:51 PM on November 30, 2023 [18 favorites]
Not particularly, insofar as it is not the motivation behind Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians. It's a justification for the necessity of Israel as a Jewish state, said supposed necessity being used to excuse the ethnic cleansing as just the eggs that had to be broken to make this particular omelette.
The late Tony Judt wrote the following 20 years ago, and in broad outlines it still applies to the present situation, IMO:
The time has come to think the unthinkable. The "two-state solution"--the core of the Oslo process and the present "road map"--is probably already doomed. With every passing year we are postponing an inevitable, harder choice that only the far right and far left have so far acknowledged, each for its own reasons. The true alternative facing the Middle East in coming years will be between an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel and a single, integrated, binational state of Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians. That is indeed how the hard-liners in Sharon's cabinet see the choice; and that is why they anticipate the removal of the Arabs as the ineluctable condition for the survival of a Jewish state.
But what if there were no place in the world today for a "Jewish state"? What if the binational solution were not just increasingly likely, but actually a desirable outcome? It is not such a very odd thought. Most of the readers of this essay live in pluralist states which have long since become multiethnic and multicultural. "Christian Europe," pace M. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, is a dead letter; Western civilization today is a patchwork of colors and religions and languages, of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Indians, and many others--as any visitor to London or Paris or Geneva will know.[4]
Israel itself is a multicultural society in all but name; yet it remains distinctive among democratic states in its resort to ethnoreligious criteria with which to denominate and rank its citizens. It is an oddity among modern nations not, as its more paranoid supporters assert, because it is a Jewish state and no one wants the Jews to have a state; but because it is a Jewish state in which one community--Jews--is set above others, in an age when that sort of state has no place.
For many years, Israel had a special meaning for the Jewish people. After 1948 it took in hundreds of thousands of helpless survivors who had nowhere else to go; without Israel their condition would have been desperate in the extreme. Israel needed Jews, and Jews needed Israel. The circumstances of its birth have thus bound Israel's identity inextricably to the Shoah, the German project to exterminate the Jews of Europe. As a result, all criticism of Israel is drawn ineluctably back to the memory of that project, something that Israel's American apologists are shamefully quick to exploit. To find fault with the Jewish state is to think ill of Jews; even to imagine an alternative configuration in the Middle East is to indulge the moral equivalent of genocide.
In the years after World War II, those many millions of Jews who did not live in Israel were often reassured by its very existence—whether they thought of it as an insurance policy against renascent anti-Semitism or simply a reminder to the world that Jews could and would fight back. Before there was a Jewish state, Jewish minorities in Christian societies would peer anxiously over their shoulders and keep a low profile; since 1948, they could walk tall. But in recent years, the situation has tragically reversed.
Today, non-Israeli Jews feel themselves once again exposed to criticism and vulnerable to attack for things they didn't do. But this time it is a Jewish state, not a Christian one, which is holding them hostage for its own actions. Diaspora Jews cannot influence Israeli policies, but they are implicitly identified with them, not least by Israel's own insistent claims upon their allegiance. The behavior of a self-described Jewish state affects the way everyone else looks at Jews. The increased incidence of attacks on Jews in Europe and elsewhere is primarily attributable to misdirected efforts, often by young Muslims, to get back at Israel. The depressing truth is that Israel's current behavior is not just bad for America, though it surely is. It is not even just bad for Israel itself, as many Israelis silently acknowledge. The depressing truth is that Israel today is bad for the Jews.
In a world where nations and peoples increasingly intermingle and intermarry at will; where cultural and national impediments to communication have all but collapsed; where more and more of us have multiple elective identities and would feel falsely constrained if we had to answer to just one of them; in such a world Israel is truly an anachronism. And not just an anachronism but a dysfunctional one. In today's "clash of cultures" between open, pluralist democracies and belligerently intolerant, faith-driven ethno-states, Israel actually risks falling into the wrong camp.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:51 PM on November 30, 2023 [18 favorites]
I am curious what "complexity" you're talking about, though. I keep seeing people refer to the "complexity of the situation", which looks pretty simple, in all honesty?
Well... there are also equally many people who think, it's pretty simple in all honestly, if Hamas didn't attack on Oct 7th, then Israel wouldn't have boots on the ground in Gaza right now. Can't argue with that fact, right? Ok end of argument, let's pack it up.
Then you go - but - but - and well then, that's where the complexity comes in. How far back do you want to go?
posted by xdvesper at 5:56 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well... there are also equally many people who think, it's pretty simple in all honestly, if Hamas didn't attack on Oct 7th, then Israel wouldn't have boots on the ground in Gaza right now. Can't argue with that fact, right? Ok end of argument, let's pack it up.
Then you go - but - but - and well then, that's where the complexity comes in. How far back do you want to go?
posted by xdvesper at 5:56 PM on November 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
That's an arbitrary point in time to draw the line. Hamas are responsible for the 7th Oct attack. Israel is responsible for putting boots (and bombs) on the ground in Gaza.
You choose how you respond to things. No action "makes" you become violent. "Look what you made me do" accompanying violence is how bullies and abusers operate. I have intentionally phrased that in such a way as to also include Hamas here - they equally chose their actions on 7th Oct.
But the Israeli response was also not inevitable, even after the 7th of October. It is the consequence of a series of choices by people, any of whom could have chosen differently.
posted by Dysk at 6:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
You choose how you respond to things. No action "makes" you become violent. "Look what you made me do" accompanying violence is how bullies and abusers operate. I have intentionally phrased that in such a way as to also include Hamas here - they equally chose their actions on 7th Oct.
But the Israeli response was also not inevitable, even after the 7th of October. It is the consequence of a series of choices by people, any of whom could have chosen differently.
posted by Dysk at 6:12 PM on November 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am curious what "complexity" you're talking about, though. I keep seeing people refer to the "complexity of the situation", which looks pretty simple, in all honesty? Israel displaced the Palestinians in an act of ethnic cleansing, and continues to oppress them through a system of apartheid, forced displacement, and collective punishment. "It's complex" seems like a way of eliding that by avoiding assigning blame.yes, you're right, the history of i/p is not even remotely complex, what was I thinking
posted by Flunkie at 7:15 PM on November 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Not particularly, insofar as it is not the motivation behind Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians."
For me Insofar... excludes so much in order to simplify what remains.
As a Jew, I parse everything so I can figure out the speakers' motivation and standpoint with respect to antisemitism. This is important for my own and others' security and it is not something I have to do with many other world events or situations. You better believe that makes it complicated for me.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:48 PM on November 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
For me Insofar... excludes so much in order to simplify what remains.
As a Jew, I parse everything so I can figure out the speakers' motivation and standpoint with respect to antisemitism. This is important for my own and others' security and it is not something I have to do with many other world events or situations. You better believe that makes it complicated for me.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:48 PM on November 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
As a Jew, I parse everything so I can figure out the speakers' motivation and standpoint with respect to antisemitism.
Antisemitism is an abhorrent and stupid prejudice that led to one of history's great atrocities. I find the idea of prejudice against any group of people for reasons of ethnicity or religious faith to be repugant. I greatly admire much of what I know of Judaism, and the moral and ethical philosophies that have developed from it. I find most of the actions of the state of Israel w/r/t the Palestinians to be frequently in direct opposition to that morality and those ethics as I understand them, and I find the idea of exclusive ethnoreligious nationalism just as repugnant as prejudice, for similar reasons.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:01 PM on November 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Antisemitism is an abhorrent and stupid prejudice that led to one of history's great atrocities. I find the idea of prejudice against any group of people for reasons of ethnicity or religious faith to be repugant. I greatly admire much of what I know of Judaism, and the moral and ethical philosophies that have developed from it. I find most of the actions of the state of Israel w/r/t the Palestinians to be frequently in direct opposition to that morality and those ethics as I understand them, and I find the idea of exclusive ethnoreligious nationalism just as repugnant as prejudice, for similar reasons.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:01 PM on November 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I came across this recently and thought it worthwhile to share (couldn't find any previous links, though I may have missed one, and if so, apologies)
A Land for All is a joint Israeli/Palestinian proposal for a possible two-state future that aims to solve some of the pitfalls plaguing previous iterations, including the issue of borders and the right to return for refugees. A recent webinar expands on the original plan.
Essentially borders go back to 1967, settlements stay in situ as part of a Palestinian state, everyone at some point will have freedom of movement/residence between the river and the sea, and if I understand it correctly, Israelis would vote for the Knesset and Palestinians for their own parliament. It's not perfect, but it's an interesting take. Of course, it's hard to see how to get there from here - might have made more sense 20 years ago...
Still, it's refreshing to see some new thinking being generated...
posted by greatgefilte at 8:20 PM on November 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
A Land for All is a joint Israeli/Palestinian proposal for a possible two-state future that aims to solve some of the pitfalls plaguing previous iterations, including the issue of borders and the right to return for refugees. A recent webinar expands on the original plan.
Essentially borders go back to 1967, settlements stay in situ as part of a Palestinian state, everyone at some point will have freedom of movement/residence between the river and the sea, and if I understand it correctly, Israelis would vote for the Knesset and Palestinians for their own parliament. It's not perfect, but it's an interesting take. Of course, it's hard to see how to get there from here - might have made more sense 20 years ago...
Still, it's refreshing to see some new thinking being generated...
posted by greatgefilte at 8:20 PM on November 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Pseudonymous C: I'm not accusing you (or anyone in this thread). I'm simply pointing out that necessarily analysis of statements is complicated because of antisemitism, even if you think the basic or underlying or whatever set of facts is morally simple.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:21 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:21 PM on November 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I relate, it's been a minefield over the years as a Muslim navigating threads and conversational tangents whenever Muslim-majority countries or Muslim militant organizations come up in the news, and they also have no problems linking their actions with our mutual faith. Like Hamas.
posted by cendawanita at 8:41 PM on November 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:41 PM on November 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is extremely sad. I suppose it was inevitable but one still hoped.
posted by kensington314 at 10:54 PM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 10:54 PM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Kriszta Satori (BBC; part of her I/P coverage thread for today):
#BBC Paul Adams on the #Blinken speech:
'Anthony Blinken said #Netanyahu had made it clear that #Israel intends to resume its military operations, something that could happen within days.
But when it happens, Blinken said it could not be a repeat of the first, brutal weeks of Israel’s assault on #Gaza.
First of all, he said, Israel had to put into place “humanitarian civilian protection plans” before going back to war, including “clearly and precisely designating” areas (cont.)
'in central and southern Gaza where civilians can be “safe and out of the line of fire".
In other words, it simply won’t be enough for Israel to tell civilians to head for the tiny coastal area of al-Mawasi, as it has been insisting for weeks.
Then, Israel must avoid "further significant displacement of civilians". Washington doesn’t want to see tens of thousands of desperate civilians on the move. There must be no "enduring internal displacement' (cont.)
'Critical infrastructure – hospitals, power stations and water facilities – must not be damaged.
Taken together, these rules – and that’s what they felt like – amount to a real challenge to the Israeli government and military, which is intent on destroying Hamas once and for all and which knows that it remains embedded inside some of Gaza’s most populated areas, in particular the southern city of Khan Yunis.
Blinken drove home that challenge: (cont.)
'Israel, he said, had "one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world". It was capable of neutralising Hamas while minimising harm to innocent civilians.
"And it has an obligation to do so," he said.
Israel, he said, had agreed with Washington’s approach. He spoke of “concrete steps”, but said it was not appropriate for him to discuss them.'
posted by cendawanita at 11:06 PM on November 30, 2023
#BBC Paul Adams on the #Blinken speech:
'Anthony Blinken said #Netanyahu had made it clear that #Israel intends to resume its military operations, something that could happen within days.
But when it happens, Blinken said it could not be a repeat of the first, brutal weeks of Israel’s assault on #Gaza.
First of all, he said, Israel had to put into place “humanitarian civilian protection plans” before going back to war, including “clearly and precisely designating” areas (cont.)
'in central and southern Gaza where civilians can be “safe and out of the line of fire".
In other words, it simply won’t be enough for Israel to tell civilians to head for the tiny coastal area of al-Mawasi, as it has been insisting for weeks.
Then, Israel must avoid "further significant displacement of civilians". Washington doesn’t want to see tens of thousands of desperate civilians on the move. There must be no "enduring internal displacement' (cont.)
'Critical infrastructure – hospitals, power stations and water facilities – must not be damaged.
Taken together, these rules – and that’s what they felt like – amount to a real challenge to the Israeli government and military, which is intent on destroying Hamas once and for all and which knows that it remains embedded inside some of Gaza’s most populated areas, in particular the southern city of Khan Yunis.
Blinken drove home that challenge: (cont.)
'Israel, he said, had "one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world". It was capable of neutralising Hamas while minimising harm to innocent civilians.
"And it has an obligation to do so," he said.
Israel, he said, had agreed with Washington’s approach. He spoke of “concrete steps”, but said it was not appropriate for him to discuss them.'
posted by cendawanita at 11:06 PM on November 30, 2023
Maybe it is time to start putting a hold on free weapons to Israel. This would communicate the seriousness of the international expectations placed upon it.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:47 AM on December 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:47 AM on December 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
From the Guardian liveblog (can't find news articles properly filed yet):
Death toll in Gaza from Israeli airstrikes rises to 32 - Gaza's Hamas-run [sic] health ministry
Thirty-two Palestinians have been killed in Israeli strikes in Gaza since the truce expired on Friday morning, Ashraf Al-Qidra, the spokesperson for Gaza’s health ministry said on Friday, according to the ministry’s Telegram account.
The latest figures, reported by Reuters, follow Israeli jets firing on the Gaza Strip minutes after the truce expired on Friday.
----
Israel’s national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, has said that the Israeli military must “return and crush Gaza with all our might”.
In a post on X this morning, he said: “For the sake of the children who have not yet returned, for the murdered who will no longer return, so that the horrors of 7/10 will never return, we must return and crush Gaza with all our might, destroy Hamas and return to the Strip, without compromises, without deals. at maximum power.”
-----
Israel has been dropping leaflets into parts of southern Gaza, telling residents to leave.
Associated Press reports that they have been dropped in Khan Younis, a city in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.
The leaflets warn that the city is now a “dangerous battle zone”. So far since the Israeli response to the Hamas terror attack has focused largely on the northern part of the Gaza Strip.
Many had fled the north into the south, taking shelter in areas including Khan Younis.
It comes as fighting has resumed this morning in the Palestinian territory after the ceasefire, which had been in place since 24 November.
In lieu of Palestine news, outside Palestine and filed under "everything else":
Julianna Margulies Says Black and LGBTQ Supporters of Palestine Are “Brainwashed to Hate Jews”
Nearly the entire US House of Representatives just equated anti-Zionist to anti-semitism - Only two members of the United States House of Representatives did not vote in favor of a resolution which reaffirms Israel’s right to exist and “recognizes that denying Israel’s right to exist is a form of antisemitism.” 412 representatives voted in favor, while Representative Thomas Massie voted against. Representative Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian in the US Congress, voted “present,” effectively an abstention. Earlier this month, Tlaib was censured by her colleagues in the House for her defense of Palestine.
Tlaib argued that the resolution “ignores the existence of the Palestinian people” and “brings us no closer to peaceful coexistence.” Massie wrote on X that he voted against because “it equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Antisemitism is deplorable, but expanding it to include criticism of Israel is not helpful.”
An Australian man says an airline asked him to remove his pro-Palestinian shirt - An Australian man trying to board a flight says he was told he’d have to change out of his "offensive" pro-Palestinian shirt first.
The war in Gaza is reshaping moderation rules. Related is this Timnit Gebru thread and this particular one where she linked to Marwa Fatafta's experience of being shadowbanned twice this year - This part that Marwa mentioned really broke me. I didn't know. She told us that many Palestinian families decide to live separately so that their entire bloodlines are not wiped out. It is in this context that their communication infrastructure is deliberately targeted.
And take a look at how Mona was shadow banned just for performing and sharing analysis about anti-Palestinian bias in content moderation
Which Australian journalists and politicians have gone on trips to Israel and Palestine? - It's become clear that a number of Australian politicians and journalists have been on organised tours to the Middle East — many of them sponsored by pro-Israel lobby groups and interest organisations.
Israeli Chief Military Censor Complains of Pressure and Threats of Dismissal From Netanyahu
Dismay as Mehdi Hasan’s MSNBC and Peacock news show cancelled
posted by cendawanita at 2:06 AM on December 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
Death toll in Gaza from Israeli airstrikes rises to 32 - Gaza's Hamas-run [sic] health ministry
Thirty-two Palestinians have been killed in Israeli strikes in Gaza since the truce expired on Friday morning, Ashraf Al-Qidra, the spokesperson for Gaza’s health ministry said on Friday, according to the ministry’s Telegram account.
The latest figures, reported by Reuters, follow Israeli jets firing on the Gaza Strip minutes after the truce expired on Friday.
----
Israel’s national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, has said that the Israeli military must “return and crush Gaza with all our might”.
In a post on X this morning, he said: “For the sake of the children who have not yet returned, for the murdered who will no longer return, so that the horrors of 7/10 will never return, we must return and crush Gaza with all our might, destroy Hamas and return to the Strip, without compromises, without deals. at maximum power.”
-----
Israel has been dropping leaflets into parts of southern Gaza, telling residents to leave.
Associated Press reports that they have been dropped in Khan Younis, a city in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.
The leaflets warn that the city is now a “dangerous battle zone”. So far since the Israeli response to the Hamas terror attack has focused largely on the northern part of the Gaza Strip.
Many had fled the north into the south, taking shelter in areas including Khan Younis.
It comes as fighting has resumed this morning in the Palestinian territory after the ceasefire, which had been in place since 24 November.
In lieu of Palestine news, outside Palestine and filed under "everything else":
Julianna Margulies Says Black and LGBTQ Supporters of Palestine Are “Brainwashed to Hate Jews”
Nearly the entire US House of Representatives just equated anti-Zionist to anti-semitism - Only two members of the United States House of Representatives did not vote in favor of a resolution which reaffirms Israel’s right to exist and “recognizes that denying Israel’s right to exist is a form of antisemitism.” 412 representatives voted in favor, while Representative Thomas Massie voted against. Representative Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian in the US Congress, voted “present,” effectively an abstention. Earlier this month, Tlaib was censured by her colleagues in the House for her defense of Palestine.
Tlaib argued that the resolution “ignores the existence of the Palestinian people” and “brings us no closer to peaceful coexistence.” Massie wrote on X that he voted against because “it equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Antisemitism is deplorable, but expanding it to include criticism of Israel is not helpful.”
An Australian man says an airline asked him to remove his pro-Palestinian shirt - An Australian man trying to board a flight says he was told he’d have to change out of his "offensive" pro-Palestinian shirt first.
The war in Gaza is reshaping moderation rules. Related is this Timnit Gebru thread and this particular one where she linked to Marwa Fatafta's experience of being shadowbanned twice this year - This part that Marwa mentioned really broke me. I didn't know. She told us that many Palestinian families decide to live separately so that their entire bloodlines are not wiped out. It is in this context that their communication infrastructure is deliberately targeted.
And take a look at how Mona was shadow banned just for performing and sharing analysis about anti-Palestinian bias in content moderation
Which Australian journalists and politicians have gone on trips to Israel and Palestine? - It's become clear that a number of Australian politicians and journalists have been on organised tours to the Middle East — many of them sponsored by pro-Israel lobby groups and interest organisations.
Israeli Chief Military Censor Complains of Pressure and Threats of Dismissal From Netanyahu
Dismay as Mehdi Hasan’s MSNBC and Peacock news show cancelled
posted by cendawanita at 2:06 AM on December 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
Most of the readers of this essay live in pluralist states which have long since become multiethnic and multicultural. "Christian Europe," pace M. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, is a dead letter; Western civilization today is a patchwork of colors and religions and languages, of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Indians, and many others--as any visitor to London or Paris or Geneva will know.[4]
Many European nations still have a state church and discriminate against people openly wearing symbols of other religions. Many European nations still don't have birthright citizenship, which can leave children stateless, and make becoming a citizen very difficult for immigrants. Many European nations legally discriminate against people for not speaking the official language. That "patchwork" is still not that different from a religious ethnostate.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:34 AM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Many European nations still have a state church and discriminate against people openly wearing symbols of other religions. Many European nations still don't have birthright citizenship, which can leave children stateless, and make becoming a citizen very difficult for immigrants. Many European nations legally discriminate against people for not speaking the official language. That "patchwork" is still not that different from a religious ethnostate.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:34 AM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
one of history's great atrocities.
Short version of history you're working with there, eh?
The inquisition, whatever....you know. The inquisition, just let it go....
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:03 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Short version of history you're working with there, eh?
The inquisition, whatever....you know. The inquisition, just let it go....
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:03 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Update from the Jerusalem shooting, I'll let the Israelis speak for themselves:
Haaretz - In footage of the shooting attack in a Jerusalem bus stop published on social media, Yuval Doron Kastelman is seen raising his hands and begging the Israeli soldiers not to shoot – after which he is shot and falls to the ground
Benzion Sanders: דורון קסטלמן ז״ל נרצח על ידי נער גבעות גאה ששמח שיש לו הזדמנות לשים איקס על הנשק.
הוא נרצח כי שתקנו כשנרצחו פלסטינים רבים בשיטת ה״ווידוא נטרול״
הוא נרצח כי במקום לעצור את הטרור של המתנחלים ולפנות אותם מהמאחזים שלהם חימשנו אותם וגייסנו אותם לצה״ל.
(Google Translate: The late Doron Castleman was murdered by a proud hillbilly boy who was happy to have the opportunity to put an X on the weapon.
He was murdered because we were silent when many Palestinians were murdered using the "Vida Neutral" method
He was murdered because instead of stopping the settlers' terrorism and evacuating them from their outposts, we armed them and recruited them into the IDF.)
I actually saw his English tweet first: The price of integrating settler terrorists into the IDF:
Left: Doron Kastlemen, heroically neutralized two terrorists in Jerusalem attack.
Right: Aviad Farij, a settler terrorist Hilltop Youth, integrated into the IDF murdered Doron thinking he was Palestinian. 🧵>>
Background stuff:
JPost: EXCLUSIVE: The secret dialogue between ICC and Israel, months of negotiations led to surprise visit - Should the ICC decide to prosecute and issue arrest warrants for Israelis, this could obligate around 125 countries, including essentially the entire EU, to arrest Israeli soldiers or officials, something which could alter the Jewish state’s global standing in a very negative way.
From the ICC’s perspective, talks with Israel are extremely sensitive for at least two reasons. If the ICC appears too friendly to Israel, it could anger a large number of its 125 member states, many of which want to see Israelis prosecuted for alleged war crimes.
In addition, if and when a country ignores the ICC, this could present the institution as ineffective, an image it has worked hard to push back against. Accordingly, Khan made it clear that his visit was unofficial and that he was to spend more time with the families of the victims of Hamas's October 7 invasion, with no public itinerary for meeting with Israeli officials.
(...)Even after he visited the Rafah border crossing, the ICC harbored some small hope that his public relations campaign would convince Israel to let him into Israel and Gaza for another week or so into the start of November.
At some point in November, Khan’s office understood Israel would not allow him to visit if he insisted on visiting Gaza and that a visit to the families of victims of October 7 could be a way around the impasse.
All of this comes against the background in which the ICC and Israel had carried along a more serious, if still informal dialogue, between July 2015 and mid-2021, including a physical visit by a whole team of ICC officials in October 2016 to Israel and the West Bank.
It is unclear what Israel and the ICC’s next moves will be, how the next stages of the war, and the geopolitics of what happens in Gaza “the day after” the war will impact the future of their dialogue and what decision Khan ultimately makes regarding war crimes allegations against the IDF and the settlement enterprise.
But there is no question that, despite Israel’s efforts to present to the world Hamas’s systematic abuse of civilian locations, such as hospitals, mosques, schools, and civilian homes, and its equally systematic use of civilian human shields, Israel faces far more attention now from the ICC than it has for most of Khan’s era, when the issue was much lower on his priority list.
On the record, the Prime Minister’s Office, the Foreign Ministry, the Justice Ministry, and the IDF Legal Division all declined to comment due to the issue’s high sensitivity.
An Israeli source did add that, “Israel does not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”
However, the Post understands that top Israeli officials would not deny significant aspects of the ICC’s narrative about the parties’ dialogue and the potential for a visit, which just before press time turned out to be true.
- Summary of the No Tech For Apartheid panel
- US-specific: (NPR) For years, the FBI quietly stopped tracking anti-Arab violence and hate crimes (reporting a background detail relevant to the Vermont shooting)
Back in Gaza:
- How Israel's war is deliberately making Gaza uninhabitable
- Bombing of Gaza has damaged or destroyed more than 100 heritage sites, NGO report reveals
- (HRW) Birth and Death Intertwined in Gaza Strip - Maternity Care Facilities Gravely Affected by Strikes, Blockade - On November 9, Israeli airstrikes hit Al-Nasr Medical Center in Gaza City, cutting off the neonatal intensive care unit’s oxygen supply. The attack forced staff to evacuate the next day, leaving babies that could not be transported alone in intensive care, according to Doctors Without Borders. On November 28 during the ceasefire, doctors were able to return and found five babies dead.
Gaza authorities report that more than 6,000 Palestinian children have been killed in Gaza since the Hamas-led attack on Israel on October 7. That attack killed at least 33 children, according to Israeli authorities, and 40 children were taken hostage.
Israel’s response included bombardments that have repeatedly forced maternity wards and reproductive health clinics to shut down or relocate. Israel also cut electricity to Gaza and banned for more than a month the entry of fuel needed to run generators that powered hospital equipment like incubators, despite World Health Organization (WHO) warnings that newborns would die.
posted by cendawanita at 6:08 AM on December 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
Haaretz - In footage of the shooting attack in a Jerusalem bus stop published on social media, Yuval Doron Kastelman is seen raising his hands and begging the Israeli soldiers not to shoot – after which he is shot and falls to the ground
Benzion Sanders: דורון קסטלמן ז״ל נרצח על ידי נער גבעות גאה ששמח שיש לו הזדמנות לשים איקס על הנשק.
הוא נרצח כי שתקנו כשנרצחו פלסטינים רבים בשיטת ה״ווידוא נטרול״
הוא נרצח כי במקום לעצור את הטרור של המתנחלים ולפנות אותם מהמאחזים שלהם חימשנו אותם וגייסנו אותם לצה״ל.
(Google Translate: The late Doron Castleman was murdered by a proud hillbilly boy who was happy to have the opportunity to put an X on the weapon.
He was murdered because we were silent when many Palestinians were murdered using the "Vida Neutral" method
He was murdered because instead of stopping the settlers' terrorism and evacuating them from their outposts, we armed them and recruited them into the IDF.)
I actually saw his English tweet first: The price of integrating settler terrorists into the IDF:
Left: Doron Kastlemen, heroically neutralized two terrorists in Jerusalem attack.
Right: Aviad Farij, a settler terrorist Hilltop Youth, integrated into the IDF murdered Doron thinking he was Palestinian. 🧵>>
Background stuff:
JPost: EXCLUSIVE: The secret dialogue between ICC and Israel, months of negotiations led to surprise visit - Should the ICC decide to prosecute and issue arrest warrants for Israelis, this could obligate around 125 countries, including essentially the entire EU, to arrest Israeli soldiers or officials, something which could alter the Jewish state’s global standing in a very negative way.
From the ICC’s perspective, talks with Israel are extremely sensitive for at least two reasons. If the ICC appears too friendly to Israel, it could anger a large number of its 125 member states, many of which want to see Israelis prosecuted for alleged war crimes.
In addition, if and when a country ignores the ICC, this could present the institution as ineffective, an image it has worked hard to push back against. Accordingly, Khan made it clear that his visit was unofficial and that he was to spend more time with the families of the victims of Hamas's October 7 invasion, with no public itinerary for meeting with Israeli officials.
(...)Even after he visited the Rafah border crossing, the ICC harbored some small hope that his public relations campaign would convince Israel to let him into Israel and Gaza for another week or so into the start of November.
At some point in November, Khan’s office understood Israel would not allow him to visit if he insisted on visiting Gaza and that a visit to the families of victims of October 7 could be a way around the impasse.
All of this comes against the background in which the ICC and Israel had carried along a more serious, if still informal dialogue, between July 2015 and mid-2021, including a physical visit by a whole team of ICC officials in October 2016 to Israel and the West Bank.
It is unclear what Israel and the ICC’s next moves will be, how the next stages of the war, and the geopolitics of what happens in Gaza “the day after” the war will impact the future of their dialogue and what decision Khan ultimately makes regarding war crimes allegations against the IDF and the settlement enterprise.
But there is no question that, despite Israel’s efforts to present to the world Hamas’s systematic abuse of civilian locations, such as hospitals, mosques, schools, and civilian homes, and its equally systematic use of civilian human shields, Israel faces far more attention now from the ICC than it has for most of Khan’s era, when the issue was much lower on his priority list.
On the record, the Prime Minister’s Office, the Foreign Ministry, the Justice Ministry, and the IDF Legal Division all declined to comment due to the issue’s high sensitivity.
An Israeli source did add that, “Israel does not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”
However, the Post understands that top Israeli officials would not deny significant aspects of the ICC’s narrative about the parties’ dialogue and the potential for a visit, which just before press time turned out to be true.
- Summary of the No Tech For Apartheid panel
- US-specific: (NPR) For years, the FBI quietly stopped tracking anti-Arab violence and hate crimes (reporting a background detail relevant to the Vermont shooting)
Back in Gaza:
- How Israel's war is deliberately making Gaza uninhabitable
- Bombing of Gaza has damaged or destroyed more than 100 heritage sites, NGO report reveals
- (HRW) Birth and Death Intertwined in Gaza Strip - Maternity Care Facilities Gravely Affected by Strikes, Blockade - On November 9, Israeli airstrikes hit Al-Nasr Medical Center in Gaza City, cutting off the neonatal intensive care unit’s oxygen supply. The attack forced staff to evacuate the next day, leaving babies that could not be transported alone in intensive care, according to Doctors Without Borders. On November 28 during the ceasefire, doctors were able to return and found five babies dead.
Gaza authorities report that more than 6,000 Palestinian children have been killed in Gaza since the Hamas-led attack on Israel on October 7. That attack killed at least 33 children, according to Israeli authorities, and 40 children were taken hostage.
Israel’s response included bombardments that have repeatedly forced maternity wards and reproductive health clinics to shut down or relocate. Israel also cut electricity to Gaza and banned for more than a month the entry of fuel needed to run generators that powered hospital equipment like incubators, despite World Health Organization (WHO) warnings that newborns would die.
posted by cendawanita at 6:08 AM on December 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
Ceasefire no longer: Israel and Hamas trade blame for cease-fire’s end as combat resumes. According to Hamas representatives, Israel turned down multiple hostage return offers, demanding the return of female soldiers; according to Israeli representatives, Hamas broke the ceasefire with a series of missile attacks this morning before the ceasefire deadline expired.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:19 AM on December 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:19 AM on December 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sausage-makers and tea readers, may I have your attention: Blinken said to tell Israel to change strategy for southern Gaza, suggest it won’t have months to win war (Times of Israel) -
According to leaked remarks from today’s war cabinet meeting, attended by US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Blinken told Israel it cannot operate in southern Gaza in the way it has done in the north — a presumed reference to the heavy air bombardment and crushing ground operation — and indicated that Israel has weeks, not months, to complete its declared mission of destroying Hamas.
The US Administration has repeatedly backed Israel’s goal of eliminating Hamas in the wake of the terror group’s October 7 slaughter of 1,200 Israelis, but has indicated it is increasingly troubled by the civilian fatalities and widespread destruction in the Hamas-run strip.
Blinken’s reported remarks are quoted only in Hebrew translation by Channel 12 news, and have been translated back into English here:
Blinken: You can’t operate in southern Gaza in the way you did in the north. There are two million Palestinians there. You need to evacuate fewer people from their homes, be more accurate in the attacks, not hit UN facilities, and ensure that there are enough protected areas [for civilians]. And if not? Then not to attack where there is a civilian population. What is your system of operation?
IDF Chief Herzi Halevi: We follow a number of principles — proportionality, distinction, and the laws of war. There were instances where we attacked on the basis of those principles, and instances where we decided not to attack, because we waited for a better opportunity.
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: The entire Israeli society is united behind the goal of dismantling Hamas, even if it takes months.
Blinken: I don’t think you have the credit for that.
The secretary also reportedly pressed the cabinet over Israel’s plans for a post-war Gaza.
Blinken: You don’t want the Palestinian Authority on the day after. We understand that. The best way to kill an idea is to bring a better idea. The other states in the region need to know what you are planning.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: As long as I’m sitting in this chair, the Palestinian Authority, which supports, educates and finances terror, will not rule Gaza on the day after Hamas.
In other news, Guardian is now carrying 972's reporting on the AI-assisted bombings.
posted by cendawanita at 6:27 AM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
According to leaked remarks from today’s war cabinet meeting, attended by US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Blinken told Israel it cannot operate in southern Gaza in the way it has done in the north — a presumed reference to the heavy air bombardment and crushing ground operation — and indicated that Israel has weeks, not months, to complete its declared mission of destroying Hamas.
The US Administration has repeatedly backed Israel’s goal of eliminating Hamas in the wake of the terror group’s October 7 slaughter of 1,200 Israelis, but has indicated it is increasingly troubled by the civilian fatalities and widespread destruction in the Hamas-run strip.
Blinken’s reported remarks are quoted only in Hebrew translation by Channel 12 news, and have been translated back into English here:
Blinken: You can’t operate in southern Gaza in the way you did in the north. There are two million Palestinians there. You need to evacuate fewer people from their homes, be more accurate in the attacks, not hit UN facilities, and ensure that there are enough protected areas [for civilians]. And if not? Then not to attack where there is a civilian population. What is your system of operation?
IDF Chief Herzi Halevi: We follow a number of principles — proportionality, distinction, and the laws of war. There were instances where we attacked on the basis of those principles, and instances where we decided not to attack, because we waited for a better opportunity.
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: The entire Israeli society is united behind the goal of dismantling Hamas, even if it takes months.
Blinken: I don’t think you have the credit for that.
The secretary also reportedly pressed the cabinet over Israel’s plans for a post-war Gaza.
Blinken: You don’t want the Palestinian Authority on the day after. We understand that. The best way to kill an idea is to bring a better idea. The other states in the region need to know what you are planning.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: As long as I’m sitting in this chair, the Palestinian Authority, which supports, educates and finances terror, will not rule Gaza on the day after Hamas.
In other news, Guardian is now carrying 972's reporting on the AI-assisted bombings.
posted by cendawanita at 6:27 AM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
According to Reuters, it seems like ~70% civilian casualties is about what the IDF are claiming in their campaign. This is the same proportion as in the horrific Oct 7th attack, which Israeli authorities described in that context as an "overwhelming majority". The major difference here is the scale of deaths.
What the IDF is doing is unequivocally a war crime, just as horrific as the Oct 7th attacks, but ten times bigger.
posted by Dysk at 7:20 AM on December 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
What the IDF is doing is unequivocally a war crime, just as horrific as the Oct 7th attacks, but ten times bigger.
posted by Dysk at 7:20 AM on December 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
That Julianna Marguilies quote is so fucking hateful and racist and stupid, is should remove her from polite society. I predict like Brett Gelman and Amy Schumer, she will face no professional consequences.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:56 AM on December 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:56 AM on December 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
One of the Vermont shooting victim, Hisham Awartani's mother interviewed by Democracy Now - she mentioned the Jewish-Palestinian solidarity activities her son had been attending and goes into detail the extent of his injury (my understanding is that he's now partially paralyzed).
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 AM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Marguillies seems to be conflating anti-Israel with antisemitic. And worse, conflating against what the Israeli government is doing with antisemitic.
I can see where she's coming from. I think she's wrong, but if you accept her axioms it's not irrational or even necesarially racist.
If she sees 10/7 not as an attack on Israelites but as an attack on Jews, as a class. Not so much as an example of a national conflict, or even nation based terrorism, but as an example of antisemitism.
Then she's going to look for solidarity against it as an attack on Jews and be horrified that people are not responding to an antisemitic attack on Jews with mutual aid, support, sympathy, and condemnation of the attackers as vile antisemitic scumbags but with talk about oppression, invsion, colonalism, resistence, and Palestinian rights.
Compare and contrast with the general response to the Tree of Life shooting in Pittsburgh. People came together, there was more or less universal condemnation, anyone expressing an attitude other than sympathy and anger at the attackers was rightly reviled.
If we view the 10/7 attacks as an antisemitic attack on Jews, much as the Tree of Life shooting was an antisemitic attack on Jews, then the feeling of angry betrayal and outrage on the part of people like Marguillies makes a lot of sense.
If you see 10/7 as an action against a govenrment, a horribly war criminal action, then stepping back, talking about the broader picture, talking about the grievences of the Palestinian people, all that seems reasonable and proper.
I suspect we'd have a similar reaction to a horrifying attack by a Ugyher resistance movement on a Chinese settlement, or an equally horrifying Chechnyan resistence attack on a Russian settlement. Condemnation of the specific attac, but also talk about the underlying causes, the validity of the resistence even if this act of resistance was wrong and immoral, the actions of the oppressive power and so on.
I think she's wrong, but I don't think it's coming from a place of actual racism or hate. Just a deep sense of betrayal and a bunkering mentality from feeling that the whole world has turned on her.
posted by sotonohito at 9:58 AM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I can see where she's coming from. I think she's wrong, but if you accept her axioms it's not irrational or even necesarially racist.
If she sees 10/7 not as an attack on Israelites but as an attack on Jews, as a class. Not so much as an example of a national conflict, or even nation based terrorism, but as an example of antisemitism.
Then she's going to look for solidarity against it as an attack on Jews and be horrified that people are not responding to an antisemitic attack on Jews with mutual aid, support, sympathy, and condemnation of the attackers as vile antisemitic scumbags but with talk about oppression, invsion, colonalism, resistence, and Palestinian rights.
Compare and contrast with the general response to the Tree of Life shooting in Pittsburgh. People came together, there was more or less universal condemnation, anyone expressing an attitude other than sympathy and anger at the attackers was rightly reviled.
If we view the 10/7 attacks as an antisemitic attack on Jews, much as the Tree of Life shooting was an antisemitic attack on Jews, then the feeling of angry betrayal and outrage on the part of people like Marguillies makes a lot of sense.
If you see 10/7 as an action against a govenrment, a horribly war criminal action, then stepping back, talking about the broader picture, talking about the grievences of the Palestinian people, all that seems reasonable and proper.
I suspect we'd have a similar reaction to a horrifying attack by a Ugyher resistance movement on a Chinese settlement, or an equally horrifying Chechnyan resistence attack on a Russian settlement. Condemnation of the specific attac, but also talk about the underlying causes, the validity of the resistence even if this act of resistance was wrong and immoral, the actions of the oppressive power and so on.
I think she's wrong, but I don't think it's coming from a place of actual racism or hate. Just a deep sense of betrayal and a bunkering mentality from feeling that the whole world has turned on her.
posted by sotonohito at 9:58 AM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yair Rosenberg tweets that Biden seems to be trying to drive wedges into Bibi’s coalition. Yari is a staff writer for The Atlantic who has covered the relationship between Israel and the US.
posted by interogative mood at 10:56 AM on December 1, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 10:56 AM on December 1, 2023
I don't think it's coming from a place of actual racism or hate.
I think you're probably right but then again she sure does manage to use some of the language and framing that I take as an opportunity to back out of conversations:
posted by kensington314 at 11:03 AM on December 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think you're probably right but then again she sure does manage to use some of the language and framing that I take as an opportunity to back out of conversations:
“I’m the first person to march [for] Black Lives Matter. When that happened to George Floyd, I put a black screen on my Instagram."
"I made a commercial for same-sex marriages with my husband in 2012. Like, I am the first person to jump up when something is wrong"
“These people who want us to call them they/them or whatever they want us to call them — which I have respectfully really made a point of doing, like, be whoever you want to be."
“And as someone who plays a lesbian journalist on The Morning Show, I am more offended by it as a lesbian than I am as a Jew, to be honest with you.”
“Because the fact that the entire Black community isn’t standing with us, to me, says they don’t know, or they’ve been brainwashed to hate Jews.”
posted by kensington314 at 11:03 AM on December 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
More than 1300 artists (actors/musicians/film and theatre people/etc) sign an open letter accusing the Western cultural community of silencing pro-Palestinian voices (exhibitions have been cancelled, people have been fired, etc). Al Jazeera English article with some more context and perspectives here.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:03 AM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:03 AM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
UAW has endorsed a ceasefire.
The United Auto Workers have endorsed a cease-fire, making them the largest national union to do so in a major development for labor and the larger movement for peace and justice in Palestine and Israel.posted by kensington314 at 11:25 AM on December 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
“We opposed fascism in World War II, we opposed the Vietnam war, we opposed apartheid South Africa and we mobilized union resources in that fight,” Mancilla says. “The UAW International has joined the call for a cease-fire. [We are] calling for an immediate, permanent ceasefire, and [we are] building a global community of solidarity.” The UAW now joins other national unions including the American Postal Workers Union, the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America (UE), the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades (IUPAT), and a long list of local unions, including the Chicago Teachers Union (CTU), in the call for a cease-fire.
The UAW is just coming off their historic Stand-Up Strike against Detroit’s Big Three automakers, which garnered national attention for several weeks as the union was seen as helping lead the way in the overall struggle for dignity and justice for working people across the United States.
. . .
“I think a long-needed conversation is happening within the labor movement, and our ignorance and silence around Palestine and Israel is finally ending,” Mancilla says. He was joined at the press conference by Bob Kingsley, the former organizing director of the UE; Elise Bryant, the President of the Coalition of Labor Union Women; Virginia Rodino of the Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance; Busra Aydin of the Washington Teachers’ Union, among others.
I think she's wrong, but I don't think it's coming from a place of actual racism or hate. Just a deep sense of betrayal and a bunkering mentality from feeling that the whole world has turned on her.
I disagree. I think it is coming from an actual place of racism and hate. I don't think it's a coincidence that Margulies and other Zionist celebrities like Amy Schumer and Iliza Schlesinger have all specifically called out Black (and to a lesser degree, queer and trans) supporters of Palestinian liberation for their disagreement.
There is a really grotesque feeling of entitlement to Black people's labor and obedience being displayed here, as well as a very ugly transactional allyship. As a nonbinary lesbian, I've noticed a lot of (largely straight and cis) Zionists online engaging in some very vivid fantasies about the kinds of treatment people like me would receive in Gaza (as Margulies does here--talking about how "pronoun kids" would be beheaded and have their heads used as soccer balls). It is absolutely anti-Blackness and queerphobia/transphobia that motivates this idea that marginalized people should fall in line.
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:30 AM on December 1, 2023 [24 favorites]
I disagree. I think it is coming from an actual place of racism and hate. I don't think it's a coincidence that Margulies and other Zionist celebrities like Amy Schumer and Iliza Schlesinger have all specifically called out Black (and to a lesser degree, queer and trans) supporters of Palestinian liberation for their disagreement.
There is a really grotesque feeling of entitlement to Black people's labor and obedience being displayed here, as well as a very ugly transactional allyship. As a nonbinary lesbian, I've noticed a lot of (largely straight and cis) Zionists online engaging in some very vivid fantasies about the kinds of treatment people like me would receive in Gaza (as Margulies does here--talking about how "pronoun kids" would be beheaded and have their heads used as soccer balls). It is absolutely anti-Blackness and queerphobia/transphobia that motivates this idea that marginalized people should fall in line.
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:30 AM on December 1, 2023 [24 favorites]
“Because the fact that the entire Black community isn’t standing with us, to me, says they don’t know, or they’ve been brainwashed to hate Jews.”
Anyone who thinks that solidarity is transactional isn't an ally.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:30 AM on December 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
Anyone who thinks that solidarity is transactional isn't an ally.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:30 AM on December 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
AI-assisted bombings
I don't believe that their AI-based targeting system is telling the IDF to drop this many bombs; I believe that the intent all along has been to pound Gaza into dust, and the AI system just increases the likelihood that most drops are hitting a plausibly hostile position. The targeting system shouldn't be called 'Gospel', it should be called 'Fig Leaf'.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:43 AM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't believe that their AI-based targeting system is telling the IDF to drop this many bombs; I believe that the intent all along has been to pound Gaza into dust, and the AI system just increases the likelihood that most drops are hitting a plausibly hostile position. The targeting system shouldn't be called 'Gospel', it should be called 'Fig Leaf'.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:43 AM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Allyship between marginalized groups is different from the allyship of someone in the majority to a marginalized person/group. Of course it’s transactional and there is an expectation of reciprocity. It is a survival strategy.
posted by interogative mood at 12:40 PM on December 1, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 12:40 PM on December 1, 2023
Allyship between marginalized groups is different from the allyship of someone in the majority to a marginalized person/group. Of course it’s transactional and there is an expectation of reciprocity. It is a survival strategy.
As a member of quite a few marginalized groups, I'd love to learn when we decided that. As an Asian person, for example, I don't believe that the solidarity I feel with Black people is transactional. I feel solidarity with other people of color because I believe we share a struggle, not because I expect them to do me a favor down the line. I think many (thought certainly not all! Because you know, racial groups are not monoliths) Black folks and other people of color have also decided that they do not share a struggle with Zionists but do share a struggle with Palestinians under occupation. That is the root of my politics and those of the people I organize with.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:11 PM on December 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
As a member of quite a few marginalized groups, I'd love to learn when we decided that. As an Asian person, for example, I don't believe that the solidarity I feel with Black people is transactional. I feel solidarity with other people of color because I believe we share a struggle, not because I expect them to do me a favor down the line. I think many (thought certainly not all! Because you know, racial groups are not monoliths) Black folks and other people of color have also decided that they do not share a struggle with Zionists but do share a struggle with Palestinians under occupation. That is the root of my politics and those of the people I organize with.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:11 PM on December 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
any meaningful way
Gross. Who made you the new bigotry Decider?
The White House, in May 2023 on the announcement of its policy to combat rising antisemitism:
The United States has recently experienced an alarming increase in antisemitic incidents, among other acts of hatred. American Jews account for 2.4% of the U.S. population, but they are the victims of 63% of reported religiously motivated hate crimes, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
As though designating the Holocaust as the "one" historical atrocity against the Jews rather than the ne plus ultra after a couple thousand years of violence wasn't bad enough.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:12 PM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gross. Who made you the new bigotry Decider?
The White House, in May 2023 on the announcement of its policy to combat rising antisemitism:
The United States has recently experienced an alarming increase in antisemitic incidents, among other acts of hatred. American Jews account for 2.4% of the U.S. population, but they are the victims of 63% of reported religiously motivated hate crimes, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
As though designating the Holocaust as the "one" historical atrocity against the Jews rather than the ne plus ultra after a couple thousand years of violence wasn't bad enough.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:12 PM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One removed. Please don't speak on behalf of an entire population. It is not up to us to say if any group is a marginalised group or not. As the guidelines say: Speak for yourself, not others
posted by loup (staff) at 1:18 PM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 1:18 PM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
The UAW not only called for a ceasefire, but is also talking about divestment. From the article:
“There has always been rank-and-file opposition to war and U.S. imperialism, but the sentiment is now becoming overwhelming. That’s evidenced by the UAW’s announcement … that it has not only signed onto the call for a cease-fire, but will also be forming a Divestment and Just Transition working group to study the history of Israel and Palestine, the union’s economic ties to the conflict, and how they can have a just transition for U.S. workers from war to peace,” Press says.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:24 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
“There has always been rank-and-file opposition to war and U.S. imperialism, but the sentiment is now becoming overwhelming. That’s evidenced by the UAW’s announcement … that it has not only signed onto the call for a cease-fire, but will also be forming a Divestment and Just Transition working group to study the history of Israel and Palestine, the union’s economic ties to the conflict, and how they can have a just transition for U.S. workers from war to peace,” Press says.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:24 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
As a member of quite a few marginalized groups, I'd love to learn when we decided that. As an Asian person, for example, I don't believe that the solidarity I feel with Black people is transactional. I feel solidarity with other people of color because I believe we share a struggle, not because I expect them to do me a favor down the line.
I'm autistic, my partner is also autistic, and trans. My experience of being a member of a marginalised group has not taught me that allyship is transactional; if anything, it's taught me that allyship with others facing similar struggles is foundational. I do not feel solidarity with Black Americans who disproportionately face police brutality, imprisonment, and prejudice because I expect them to show up for me, but because it's the right thing to do according to my understanding of morality and ethics. And it's very easy to understand why Black Americans, looking at the Israel/Palestine situation and seeing Palestinians subjected to conditions equivalent to Jim Crow/apartheid, would not be supportive of Israel. (Also, it's a gross conflation of Judaism and Zionism to suggest they *should* support Israel.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on December 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm autistic, my partner is also autistic, and trans. My experience of being a member of a marginalised group has not taught me that allyship is transactional; if anything, it's taught me that allyship with others facing similar struggles is foundational. I do not feel solidarity with Black Americans who disproportionately face police brutality, imprisonment, and prejudice because I expect them to show up for me, but because it's the right thing to do according to my understanding of morality and ethics. And it's very easy to understand why Black Americans, looking at the Israel/Palestine situation and seeing Palestinians subjected to conditions equivalent to Jim Crow/apartheid, would not be supportive of Israel. (Also, it's a gross conflation of Judaism and Zionism to suggest they *should* support Israel.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on December 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
Also, my understanding of "marginalisation" is that it refers to systemic oppression (like that experienced by Black Americans, or Palestinians in the occupied territories), and not to random acts of hate committed by bigots. One of these things is not like the others.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:38 PM on December 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:38 PM on December 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you want some gross doublespeak....someone self-immolated in protest outside the Israeli consulate in Atlanta today. The consulate position was that it was "tragic to see the hate and incitement toward Israel expressed in such a horrific way". I just can't even with this shit.
posted by corb at 2:03 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:03 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: The entire Israeli society is united behind the goal of dismantling Hamas, even if it takes months.
Blinken: I don’t think you have the credit for that.
Does The Israeli cabinet get that Blinken a'int Blinkin. totally shut down the DM.
In diplomacy especially Da Secretary of State you need a least mimimal intelligence to back up what your saying. The interesting thing about this conversation is that both sides know exactly what Blinken means. The politico-military big dog in the AO are those aircraft carriers, they aren't just watching Gaza and Iran et.al. they are also watching Israel. Israel does not want to get into a eye of Ra kind of situation with the United States government. But don't heed the advice from the United States, you'll get your political support and ammunition and (reaches into change purse, here's 18 no 20billion) here ya go but don't make me turn these aircraft carriers around despite any bilateral agreement if you persist in a unabated total warfare which is
tanamount to genocide. I know I know I know you don't want to hear that but look at the historical record of Big Sam, I know I know I know, Hamas has to go like isis had to go but isis still here in one form or the other so perhaps try a different approach. Dammit, centuries of genile antisemistisn, anti-Catholic, anti democratic party sentiment was virtually wiped out in two generations. call me an anti-semite because I criticize Israel government is a problem I've been reading some of the comments.
sorry but I'm pissed. my nephew said it best. the greatest thing the United States military can give you is the right to complain about it later on.
or not.
posted by clavdivs at 2:20 PM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Blinken: I don’t think you have the credit for that.
Does The Israeli cabinet get that Blinken a'int Blinkin. totally shut down the DM.
In diplomacy especially Da Secretary of State you need a least mimimal intelligence to back up what your saying. The interesting thing about this conversation is that both sides know exactly what Blinken means. The politico-military big dog in the AO are those aircraft carriers, they aren't just watching Gaza and Iran et.al. they are also watching Israel. Israel does not want to get into a eye of Ra kind of situation with the United States government. But don't heed the advice from the United States, you'll get your political support and ammunition and (reaches into change purse, here's 18 no 20billion) here ya go but don't make me turn these aircraft carriers around despite any bilateral agreement if you persist in a unabated total warfare which is
tanamount to genocide. I know I know I know you don't want to hear that but look at the historical record of Big Sam, I know I know I know, Hamas has to go like isis had to go but isis still here in one form or the other so perhaps try a different approach. Dammit, centuries of genile antisemistisn, anti-Catholic, anti democratic party sentiment was virtually wiped out in two generations. call me an anti-semite because I criticize Israel government is a problem I've been reading some of the comments.
sorry but I'm pissed. my nephew said it best. the greatest thing the United States military can give you is the right to complain about it later on.
or not.
posted by clavdivs at 2:20 PM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
" my understanding of "marginalisation" is that it refers to systemic oppression (like that experienced by Black Americans, or Palestinians in the occupied territories), and not to random acts of hate committed by bigots. One of these things is not like the others."
Are you saying that antisemitism is not systemic? It is a historic matter of law and practice worldwide, and a contemporary matter of practice even in our (post-)Christian societies now. It is absolutely NOT "random acts of hate committed by bigots".
I will add that in my country, ethnic minorities who do not get along (including our local Jewish community) DO organise strategically to protect our joint interests against majoritarianism. There is a transactional component as well as one of principle. This seems wholly obvious to me.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:42 PM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Are you saying that antisemitism is not systemic? It is a historic matter of law and practice worldwide, and a contemporary matter of practice even in our (post-)Christian societies now. It is absolutely NOT "random acts of hate committed by bigots".
I will add that in my country, ethnic minorities who do not get along (including our local Jewish community) DO organise strategically to protect our joint interests against majoritarianism. There is a transactional component as well as one of principle. This seems wholly obvious to me.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:42 PM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
In 2022 anti-Jewish hate crimes accounted for more than half of all religiously motivated hate crime in the US according to the FBI.
If you look at the other numbers in that article re eg racial hate crimes against African Americans the number is especially striking given our relative proportions in the population.
But if you just want some experiential evidence, I invite you to walk around with a kippah on for a week and see how you go.
Honestly it is just emblematic of so many Mefites' attitude and society at large that the onus is on Jews to defend the case that antisemitism is a serious problem. I am not going to engage further on this point, just ask you to reflect.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:13 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
If you look at the other numbers in that article re eg racial hate crimes against African Americans the number is especially striking given our relative proportions in the population.
But if you just want some experiential evidence, I invite you to walk around with a kippah on for a week and see how you go.
Honestly it is just emblematic of so many Mefites' attitude and society at large that the onus is on Jews to defend the case that antisemitism is a serious problem. I am not going to engage further on this point, just ask you to reflect.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:13 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
LMGTFY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States
This like many other things would go so much better without demanding people prove their suffering is authentic
posted by Jarcat at 3:15 PM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
This like many other things would go so much better without demanding people prove their suffering is authentic
posted by Jarcat at 3:15 PM on December 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Charleston is in the United States. Q-anon is antisemitic. Alex Jones, etc. Members of Congress... Remarkable to just double and triple down on this.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:33 PM on December 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:33 PM on December 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Just going to repeat cosmic owl's comment, as some individuals seem to have missed it:
One manifestation [of antisemitism on the left], out of many, is that people in leftist places, like Metafilter, are demanding that leftist Jews, no matter how critical of Israel they are, no matter what they say and do to support the Palestinian cause, must prove over and over to each individual that antisemitism exists. Imagine making this demand of any other minority group.
posted by Klipspringer at 3:34 PM on December 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
One manifestation [of antisemitism on the left], out of many, is that people in leftist places, like Metafilter, are demanding that leftist Jews, no matter how critical of Israel they are, no matter what they say and do to support the Palestinian cause, must prove over and over to each individual that antisemitism exists. Imagine making this demand of any other minority group.
posted by Klipspringer at 3:34 PM on December 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Even if anti semitism is the biggest social ill in the US, I fail to see how that justifies Margilius’ comment or anything else? Islamophobia is a really big problem too and that makes no amount of hate or killing justified.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:39 PM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:39 PM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
It doesn't, and we don't need the whataboutism? Anybody's.
But you say potato, and I'll say FIAMO. I guess.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:41 PM on December 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
But you say potato, and I'll say FIAMO. I guess.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:41 PM on December 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well I guess the comments aren’t that antisemitism exists so hate is justified, it’s that antisemitism exists so when black people don’t support Israel, they’re not keeping up their end of the bargain. I’ll let the reader judge how racist that argument is.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:50 PM on December 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:50 PM on December 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think Margulies was way out of line. I was reacting specifically to PCs comment.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:13 PM on December 1, 2023
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:13 PM on December 1, 2023
The socialist prime minister of Spain isn't backing down from comments criticizing the Netanyahu government for violating international law; Israel has recalled its ambassador to Madrid and called in Spain's ambassador to Israel for a reprimand, the 2nd in as many weeks:
In an interview with Spanish state-owned broadcaster TVE on Thursday, Sanchez said, according to a translation by Reuters: “The footage we are seeing and the growing numbers of children dying — I have serious doubt [Israel] is complying with international humanitarian law.”
In the same interview, Sánchez urged the European Union to recognize a Palestinian state, claiming it would help end the current conflict and “stabilize” the region. “It is obvious that we must find a political solution to put an end to this crisis and this solution requires, in my opinion, the recognition of the Palestinian state,” he said. “It is in Europe’s interest to address this issue out of moral conviction because what we are seeing in Gaza is not acceptable.”
posted by mediareport at 4:22 PM on December 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
In an interview with Spanish state-owned broadcaster TVE on Thursday, Sanchez said, according to a translation by Reuters: “The footage we are seeing and the growing numbers of children dying — I have serious doubt [Israel] is complying with international humanitarian law.”
In the same interview, Sánchez urged the European Union to recognize a Palestinian state, claiming it would help end the current conflict and “stabilize” the region. “It is obvious that we must find a political solution to put an end to this crisis and this solution requires, in my opinion, the recognition of the Palestinian state,” he said. “It is in Europe’s interest to address this issue out of moral conviction because what we are seeing in Gaza is not acceptable.”
posted by mediareport at 4:22 PM on December 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
(on phone and in meeting so I'll keep it brief: yes I do have a different definition of systemic, that is a helpful clarifying question. Systems can be informal and often are.)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:27 PM on December 1, 2023
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:27 PM on December 1, 2023
I don't think allyship is transactional and neither do I think even in America anti-Semitism is a resolved issue. That however doesn't mean JM's remarks aren't racist as hell and there's really no need to extensively look up ways to preemptively forgive her. For me, I look at the city council in Michigan, the one who is now majority Muslim and then decided to announce a reversal in public LGBT support, despite the years of solidarity shown? That's straight homophobia and I don't have to twist myself explaining how my fellow Muslims' systemic discrimination and oppression should excuse that move or that sentiment.
So what I would like to see is less of the impulse to go, there, see see, see how racist you're being. That impulse is honed against majoritarian violence, and assumes nobility amongst the oppressed when this entire thread talking about a specific country that's much like other postcolonial countries, will tell you that's very much FUCKING not.
It's not right anti-Semitism is being used to shut down legitimate criticism. Nevertheless legitimate criticism in the world right now is being shut down.
posted by cendawanita at 4:32 PM on December 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
So what I would like to see is less of the impulse to go, there, see see, see how racist you're being. That impulse is honed against majoritarian violence, and assumes nobility amongst the oppressed when this entire thread talking about a specific country that's much like other postcolonial countries, will tell you that's very much FUCKING not.
It's not right anti-Semitism is being used to shut down legitimate criticism. Nevertheless legitimate criticism in the world right now is being shut down.
posted by cendawanita at 4:32 PM on December 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Saying "antisemitism is not systemic oppression in the United States" (which it is not; there aren't any people in positions of political power calling to remove Jews from public life, or for the repression of Jewish worship, etc)
Eh there’s pretty blatant antisemitism from a not insignificant chunk of the American political elite. They just happen to be all on the far right and are strong supporters of Israel (and for the Jews to all go there to die so they can help bring about the rapture)
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:46 PM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Eh there’s pretty blatant antisemitism from a not insignificant chunk of the American political elite. They just happen to be all on the far right and are strong supporters of Israel (and for the Jews to all go there to die so they can help bring about the rapture)
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:46 PM on December 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
The family of the armed Israeli citizen who helped stop Thursday's terror attack at the bus stop in Jerusalem, and who was then shot after he'd thrown his gun away, put his hands in the air and shouted to soldiers "don't shoot!" is now calling it an "execution" and is asking for an inquiry:
Castleman rushed at the terrorists with his firearm and fired at them before being shot at himself by soldiers who were also at the scene. Graphic video from the scene showed Castleman throw away his gun, fall on his knees and raise his hands in the air while shouting “Don’t shoot” as the soldiers approached him. He was then shot again by one of them.
His family told Channel 13 news that his death was an “execution.” “No one has yet spoken to us officially. We want to know exactly what happened. In the footage, you can see that he charges at the terrorists and neutralizes them, and suddenly they shoot him,” Castleman’s father, Moshe, said. “They didn’t read the situation correctly. Right now, I can’t be judgmental, what would I have done in that situation? But I want them to thoroughly investigate this and draw conclusions from the incident.”
Israeli security forces have been condemned in the past for shooting and killing terror suspects even after they have been disarmed and no longer pose a threat, in contravention of open fire orders...After initially saying it had no plans to investigate the incident, the IDF changed tack on Friday, saying that following the findings of an initial probe by the Shin Bet and Israel Police, it was decided that the Military Police’s investigatory unit — known in Hebrew by its acronym metzach — would also take part in the probe. The army also said that “the IDF expresses sorrow at the death of the civilian.”
If you must, here's a Nitter.net link to the video of the civilian with his hands in the air being shot, so you don't have to visit Twitter.
The incident reminds me that racist shithead Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel's head of national security, has made easing restrictions for Israeli civilians to own guns a key part of his response to the 10/7 massacre, to the alarm of workers at Israeli social welfare and domestic violence agencies:
Israeli Welfare Officials Sound Domestic Violence Warning as Ben-Gvir Dishes Out Gun Permits:
The ministry’s concern about National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir’s policy of enabling more and more Israelis to carry weapons echoes those already expressed by civil society and feminist groups.
Since the Hamas massacre on October 7, requests for gun permits have soared to about 250,000. Only four have been turned down because the applicant was deemed dangerous. The Welfare Ministry will investigate if officials suspect there is a risk of misuse, but the body entrusted with ultimately assessing the risk is the National Security Ministry. Since the start of the war, 18 such investigations have been undertaken, but Welfare Ministry officials say that doesn’t reflect the scale of the risk...
The granting of a license is conditional on medical and police approvals, but the Welfare Ministry has no say in it. “Despite the fact that the Welfare Ministry plays a key role in dealing with domestic violence and addictions, and has critical information concerning the potential risk of a license applicant, its approval is not required,” says a position paper submitted by the Gun-Free Kitchen Tables NGO and other civil society organizations
posted by mediareport at 4:49 PM on December 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Castleman rushed at the terrorists with his firearm and fired at them before being shot at himself by soldiers who were also at the scene. Graphic video from the scene showed Castleman throw away his gun, fall on his knees and raise his hands in the air while shouting “Don’t shoot” as the soldiers approached him. He was then shot again by one of them.
His family told Channel 13 news that his death was an “execution.” “No one has yet spoken to us officially. We want to know exactly what happened. In the footage, you can see that he charges at the terrorists and neutralizes them, and suddenly they shoot him,” Castleman’s father, Moshe, said. “They didn’t read the situation correctly. Right now, I can’t be judgmental, what would I have done in that situation? But I want them to thoroughly investigate this and draw conclusions from the incident.”
Israeli security forces have been condemned in the past for shooting and killing terror suspects even after they have been disarmed and no longer pose a threat, in contravention of open fire orders...After initially saying it had no plans to investigate the incident, the IDF changed tack on Friday, saying that following the findings of an initial probe by the Shin Bet and Israel Police, it was decided that the Military Police’s investigatory unit — known in Hebrew by its acronym metzach — would also take part in the probe. The army also said that “the IDF expresses sorrow at the death of the civilian.”
If you must, here's a Nitter.net link to the video of the civilian with his hands in the air being shot, so you don't have to visit Twitter.
The incident reminds me that racist shithead Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel's head of national security, has made easing restrictions for Israeli civilians to own guns a key part of his response to the 10/7 massacre, to the alarm of workers at Israeli social welfare and domestic violence agencies:
Israeli Welfare Officials Sound Domestic Violence Warning as Ben-Gvir Dishes Out Gun Permits:
The ministry’s concern about National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir’s policy of enabling more and more Israelis to carry weapons echoes those already expressed by civil society and feminist groups.
Since the Hamas massacre on October 7, requests for gun permits have soared to about 250,000. Only four have been turned down because the applicant was deemed dangerous. The Welfare Ministry will investigate if officials suspect there is a risk of misuse, but the body entrusted with ultimately assessing the risk is the National Security Ministry. Since the start of the war, 18 such investigations have been undertaken, but Welfare Ministry officials say that doesn’t reflect the scale of the risk...
The granting of a license is conditional on medical and police approvals, but the Welfare Ministry has no say in it. “Despite the fact that the Welfare Ministry plays a key role in dealing with domestic violence and addictions, and has critical information concerning the potential risk of a license applicant, its approval is not required,” says a position paper submitted by the Gun-Free Kitchen Tables NGO and other civil society organizations
posted by mediareport at 4:49 PM on December 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Castleman rushed at the terrorists with his firearm and fired at them before being shot at himself by soldiers who were also at the scene. Graphic video from the scene showed Castleman throw away his gun, fall on his knees and raise his hands in the air while shouting “Don’t shoot” as the soldiers approached him. He was then shot again by one of them.It shows how decades of occupation create both brutality and incompetence in the occupiers.
The IDF is struggling to retake Gaza despite a massive material advantage and can't tell a militant from someone trying to help because they've spent their time acting as violent thugs instead of regular soldiers.
posted by zymil at 5:10 PM on December 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Like, it can simultaneously be true that Antisemitism (as well as Islamophobia) is systemic in the US and other countries, and also that the current Israeli government is committing war crimes and appears from their rhetoric and the alignment between their rhetoric and their actions to be pursuing a genocide agenda toward Palestinians.
posted by eviemath at 5:32 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:32 PM on December 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
Like, it can simultaneously be true that Antisemitism (as well as Islamophobia) is systemic in the US and other countries, and also that the current Israeli government is committing war crimes and appears from their rhetoric and the alignment between their rhetoric and their actions to be pursuing a genocide agenda toward Palestinians.
Yes but. Those can both be (and in fact are both) true, but if the former is used by a large proportion of people with any real influence as a weapon to silence criticism of the latter, so that pretty soon a salient feature of the concept "antisemitism in the present-day US" is that it's the thing dishonest people use as a smokescreen to deflect criticism of an active genocide, then I can see why people's inclination to evaluate others' sense of perspective charitably might start to wear a bit fucking thin, even if I think that wearing-thin is from a more holistic point of view an error, or even itself bigoted or giving an unwarranted pass to antisemitism.
The people I know in the US who used what platforms they have to criticise recent, say, Saudi Arabian or Russian war crimes or even domestic terrorism by American police mysteriously didn't have their jobs threatened over that, but a few public words affirming the status of Palestinian people as actual human beings with actual individual and collective rights are somehow beyond the pale; I'm personally aware of instances in the past few weeks of university administrators voicing "but what is tenure REALLY"-type thoughts re: the job security of people I know, under pressure from the "expressions of solidarity with Palestinians are inherently antisemitic hate speech" crowd.
I've also just had to listen to someone who is historically my close friend (1) voicing support for the present Israeli government policy toward Gaza and (2) repeating the disgusting line that LGBT+ people should not express outrage at IDF atrocities because of "what would happen to them in Gaza". And in the course of pushing back, I was subjected to a wholly irrelevant "hmm are you an antisemite tho" interrogation, when in fact, genocide apologia and transphobia would remain genocide apologia and transphobia even if pointed out by the vilest and most committed antisemite. (The next zoom call was with a different friend who had two family members grabbed from their home by the IDF the other day, to add to the overall surreality of giving a fuck what some American celebrity thinks, which is I think what this arc of this thread is originally about?)
So given that there is systemic (in my understanding of the term systemic) antisemitism in the US that's relevant in a contextual but not immediate way to an in-progress atrocity, and also systematic, highly effective deployment of a frank bullshit accusation confusingly decorated with the same term --- an accusation that will now have been levelled at pretty much anyone making a serious effort, with whatever tiny influence most of us are afforded, to end an atrocity happening on many of our watch, to some degree --- I'm inclined to limited patience for the moment with the centring of US antisemitism in a discussion about Gaza. It's basically just more US-centric MeFi bullshit to indulge a derail about what some fucking American TV person has to say, no?
posted by busted_crayons at 6:52 PM on December 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
Yes but. Those can both be (and in fact are both) true, but if the former is used by a large proportion of people with any real influence as a weapon to silence criticism of the latter, so that pretty soon a salient feature of the concept "antisemitism in the present-day US" is that it's the thing dishonest people use as a smokescreen to deflect criticism of an active genocide, then I can see why people's inclination to evaluate others' sense of perspective charitably might start to wear a bit fucking thin, even if I think that wearing-thin is from a more holistic point of view an error, or even itself bigoted or giving an unwarranted pass to antisemitism.
The people I know in the US who used what platforms they have to criticise recent, say, Saudi Arabian or Russian war crimes or even domestic terrorism by American police mysteriously didn't have their jobs threatened over that, but a few public words affirming the status of Palestinian people as actual human beings with actual individual and collective rights are somehow beyond the pale; I'm personally aware of instances in the past few weeks of university administrators voicing "but what is tenure REALLY"-type thoughts re: the job security of people I know, under pressure from the "expressions of solidarity with Palestinians are inherently antisemitic hate speech" crowd.
I've also just had to listen to someone who is historically my close friend (1) voicing support for the present Israeli government policy toward Gaza and (2) repeating the disgusting line that LGBT+ people should not express outrage at IDF atrocities because of "what would happen to them in Gaza". And in the course of pushing back, I was subjected to a wholly irrelevant "hmm are you an antisemite tho" interrogation, when in fact, genocide apologia and transphobia would remain genocide apologia and transphobia even if pointed out by the vilest and most committed antisemite. (The next zoom call was with a different friend who had two family members grabbed from their home by the IDF the other day, to add to the overall surreality of giving a fuck what some American celebrity thinks, which is I think what this arc of this thread is originally about?)
So given that there is systemic (in my understanding of the term systemic) antisemitism in the US that's relevant in a contextual but not immediate way to an in-progress atrocity, and also systematic, highly effective deployment of a frank bullshit accusation confusingly decorated with the same term --- an accusation that will now have been levelled at pretty much anyone making a serious effort, with whatever tiny influence most of us are afforded, to end an atrocity happening on many of our watch, to some degree --- I'm inclined to limited patience for the moment with the centring of US antisemitism in a discussion about Gaza. It's basically just more US-centric MeFi bullshit to indulge a derail about what some fucking American TV person has to say, no?
posted by busted_crayons at 6:52 PM on December 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
So, just like talking about China's abuses shouldn't let people resort to anti-asian racist talking points (and if unintended, to not persist) - or better, when talking about their treatment of the Uyghurs and now their Muslims in general, to not then go to the other direction and dismiss their faith as that excuses the treatment they get, and then not to allow their personal and communal experience of racist treatment be used as cover for China (e.g the wave of violent attacks in USA). It's not a strange tangent - those attacks have become fodder back in China and even here in my region on how it's not safe to be Asian "over there" and at least there's somewhere "here".
So how to move past that? What is unique seems to me is the reluctance to concede how that shared identity is being used to excuse human rights abuses. It's not just a matter of well, we gotta stand by this imperfect politician since we need that representation (I sympathize) but an entire regime literally killing people for decades.
It shouldn't have to be contested that Jewish people don't feel safe and have valid history and recent ones at that, to point to. I'm asking, again, keeping numbers in perspective, what is that history being recalled is being used to what purpose? I even regret bringing up that stupid racist actress. Your minority identity in one axis doesn't excuse being a bigot, but the immediate need to sympathize with that one bigot led to this big exchange. The black people she's dismissed? The queers? The Palestinians being killed right now? RIGHT NOW.
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on December 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
So how to move past that? What is unique seems to me is the reluctance to concede how that shared identity is being used to excuse human rights abuses. It's not just a matter of well, we gotta stand by this imperfect politician since we need that representation (I sympathize) but an entire regime literally killing people for decades.
It shouldn't have to be contested that Jewish people don't feel safe and have valid history and recent ones at that, to point to. I'm asking, again, keeping numbers in perspective, what is that history being recalled is being used to what purpose? I even regret bringing up that stupid racist actress. Your minority identity in one axis doesn't excuse being a bigot, but the immediate need to sympathize with that one bigot led to this big exchange. The black people she's dismissed? The queers? The Palestinians being killed right now? RIGHT NOW.
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on December 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Anyway, there is so much information/news/history to keep track of, I'd encourage people to try and ignore the dumb things that various celebrities have said - same goes for Owen Jones (who in recent years has defended Roger Waters and various Assad apologists - this guy is not serious). As Shayan Sardarizadeh recently Tweeted, "I've done fact-checking during several conflicts. Never have I seen one where so much disinformation is posted with the direct intent of dehumanising real victims of war on both sides."
So a run-down of sources that I've found helpful and principled (in terms of not jumping to conclusions, empathy for both sides, real expertise from years on the ground/speaks the languages/etc.) in no particular order. This isn't to say I 100% agree with everything these people write, but they are thoughtful and knowledgeable (these are Twitter handles - sadly, still the main social media for news):
Shayan Sardarizadeh @Shayan86 (The fact-checker/disinfo beat for BBC noted above - truly doing a thankless task)
Anwar Mhajne @mhajneam (Arab-Israeli, currently professor in the US)
Gershon Baskin @gershonbaskin (Israeli leftist, involved in hostage negotiations, was up until recently a text-pal of sorts with Ghazi Hamad of Hamas)
Yair Wallach @YairWallach (Israeli left and academic based in London (SOAS), works on I/P history)
B'Tselem @btselem (Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories)
Etan Nechin @Etanetan23 (writer for Haaretz and Israeli refusnik -i.e. went to prison for not serving in the IDF)
İyad el-Baghdadi @iyad_elbaghdadi (Norwegian-Palestinian, founder of a Human Rights org, strong grasp of the situation)
Middle East Eye @MiddleEastEye (General news source, trustworthy)
Khalil Sayegh @KhalilJeries (Palestinian-American now in DC/policy world)
Mairav Zonszein @MairavZ (Israeli-American journalist/analyst, on the left)
Responding to a question raised way up thread:
-This Twitter thread (nitter link, if it doesn't work this is my first time trying it) goes into great details as to why the cars from the Nova festival will be buried (TL:DR - in Jewish law "every single bit of the body must be buried, (to the point that even the sponges used for cleanup are buried), and the cars in question are so full of blood and ashes and remains that its *impossible to get them out* the unprecedented decision was made to bury cars")
I am sad Mehdi Hassan's show got canceled - he displayed a lot of empathy of both sides, and avoided easy polemics. I'm sure he'll land somewhere (I mean, I realize he officially will still be an occasionally guest host for MSNBC), but perhaps not with the same size audience.
posted by coffeecat at 7:30 PM on December 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
So a run-down of sources that I've found helpful and principled (in terms of not jumping to conclusions, empathy for both sides, real expertise from years on the ground/speaks the languages/etc.) in no particular order. This isn't to say I 100% agree with everything these people write, but they are thoughtful and knowledgeable (these are Twitter handles - sadly, still the main social media for news):
Shayan Sardarizadeh @Shayan86 (The fact-checker/disinfo beat for BBC noted above - truly doing a thankless task)
Anwar Mhajne @mhajneam (Arab-Israeli, currently professor in the US)
Gershon Baskin @gershonbaskin (Israeli leftist, involved in hostage negotiations, was up until recently a text-pal of sorts with Ghazi Hamad of Hamas)
Yair Wallach @YairWallach (Israeli left and academic based in London (SOAS), works on I/P history)
B'Tselem @btselem (Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories)
Etan Nechin @Etanetan23 (writer for Haaretz and Israeli refusnik -i.e. went to prison for not serving in the IDF)
İyad el-Baghdadi @iyad_elbaghdadi (Norwegian-Palestinian, founder of a Human Rights org, strong grasp of the situation)
Middle East Eye @MiddleEastEye (General news source, trustworthy)
Khalil Sayegh @KhalilJeries (Palestinian-American now in DC/policy world)
Mairav Zonszein @MairavZ (Israeli-American journalist/analyst, on the left)
Responding to a question raised way up thread:
-This Twitter thread (nitter link, if it doesn't work this is my first time trying it) goes into great details as to why the cars from the Nova festival will be buried (TL:DR - in Jewish law "every single bit of the body must be buried, (to the point that even the sponges used for cleanup are buried), and the cars in question are so full of blood and ashes and remains that its *impossible to get them out* the unprecedented decision was made to bury cars")
I am sad Mehdi Hassan's show got canceled - he displayed a lot of empathy of both sides, and avoided easy polemics. I'm sure he'll land somewhere (I mean, I realize he officially will still be an occasionally guest host for MSNBC), but perhaps not with the same size audience.
posted by coffeecat at 7:30 PM on December 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
"...Never have I seen one where so much disinformation is posted with the direct intent of dehumanising real victims of war on both sides."
Yeah, it's been difficult to sift through info and postings especially since twitter has algorithms to induce epistemic closure for me, and fedi has network effects (i.e. relationships) to induce the same, tho luckily I think I have a fairly good set of people worth following but breaking news when it's not EU or US can still be slow even if what is shared is more considered. But it's also why I get very frustrated with the western establishment/society's epistemic closure (even in hobbyist levels like at the fandom volunteer-run AO3, where again pro-palestinian slogans are described as unsafe - no, we've gone thru this tangent, i'm just mentioning it for colour) because it's now become a season of strange bedfellows, like Prof Rashid Khalidi showing up at TYT channel, or Naomi Klein showing up on The Bitchuation Room (where she specifically said she's happy to talk about the whole using Jewish trauma to support Israel as part of talking about her new book, because no one has wanted to touch it in preference of jumping off Naomi Wolf into anti-vaxxers). Norman Finkelstein showing up on Candace Owens podcast? Is that normal?
The whole point of sanctioning and exiling voices out of mainstream outlets is to rob them of their legitimacy. It's a useful tactic, but it's awful to see it employed so one-sidedly and so underservedly (undeserved because imo Israel isn't special as a postcolonial country commiting human rights abuses, yet...? Reasons. Mind you, I mean this also when I see KSA swanning around the world too. And there are reasons the West maintains their legitimacy. Russia's lost the gamble with Ukraine, but it wasn't like a sure thing Europe wasn't going to get salamied away all the way back to Berlin). Yesterday I was watching an interview with Knesset member Ofer Cassif, who was serving a 45-day suspension during recording for calling his government fascist who are enacting progroms on Palestinians, on some channel that feels sus, but I guess, that's the channel that's interested to have them on? And he's saying things that would get him shouted down even outside current rightwing Israel, because it's 'antisemitism' to resort to those analogies, when he should at least be the one profile who should be allowed to do so.
Fraught times trying to keep a straight focus. But it's really not helped when we let our respective traumas inform our reaction, when there are people in literal warzones and victimized by apartheid (both sides - don't forget Yuval Doron Castleman) who are in active current harm. One of those kids who got shot in Vermont can keep focus. We should too.
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 PM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yeah, it's been difficult to sift through info and postings especially since twitter has algorithms to induce epistemic closure for me, and fedi has network effects (i.e. relationships) to induce the same, tho luckily I think I have a fairly good set of people worth following but breaking news when it's not EU or US can still be slow even if what is shared is more considered. But it's also why I get very frustrated with the western establishment/society's epistemic closure (even in hobbyist levels like at the fandom volunteer-run AO3, where again pro-palestinian slogans are described as unsafe - no, we've gone thru this tangent, i'm just mentioning it for colour) because it's now become a season of strange bedfellows, like Prof Rashid Khalidi showing up at TYT channel, or Naomi Klein showing up on The Bitchuation Room (where she specifically said she's happy to talk about the whole using Jewish trauma to support Israel as part of talking about her new book, because no one has wanted to touch it in preference of jumping off Naomi Wolf into anti-vaxxers). Norman Finkelstein showing up on Candace Owens podcast? Is that normal?
The whole point of sanctioning and exiling voices out of mainstream outlets is to rob them of their legitimacy. It's a useful tactic, but it's awful to see it employed so one-sidedly and so underservedly (undeserved because imo Israel isn't special as a postcolonial country commiting human rights abuses, yet...? Reasons. Mind you, I mean this also when I see KSA swanning around the world too. And there are reasons the West maintains their legitimacy. Russia's lost the gamble with Ukraine, but it wasn't like a sure thing Europe wasn't going to get salamied away all the way back to Berlin). Yesterday I was watching an interview with Knesset member Ofer Cassif, who was serving a 45-day suspension during recording for calling his government fascist who are enacting progroms on Palestinians, on some channel that feels sus, but I guess, that's the channel that's interested to have them on? And he's saying things that would get him shouted down even outside current rightwing Israel, because it's 'antisemitism' to resort to those analogies, when he should at least be the one profile who should be allowed to do so.
Fraught times trying to keep a straight focus. But it's really not helped when we let our respective traumas inform our reaction, when there are people in literal warzones and victimized by apartheid (both sides - don't forget Yuval Doron Castleman) who are in active current harm. One of those kids who got shot in Vermont can keep focus. We should too.
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 PM on December 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Mod note: Most of the marginalization derail deleted. Pseudonymous Cognomen, your earlier comment was removed and you were asked to abide by the guidelines, and not to position yourself to determine if any group is a marginalized group or not. You ignored this, and I'm repeating, specifically, drop this line of argumentation or get a time-out or permanent ban. For everyone, also please discontinue this derail, thank you. Separately, going forward, I will ask folks to also please discontinue centering US cultural items such as reactions from US celebrities, etc. as a significant part of this discussion. (If need be, please make a separate post for talking about US pop culture or similar aggressively US-focused discussion related to this. Military, political, and academic reactions / positions are relevant, for example, but random celebrities, etc., less so, especially when it tends to take over the thread). Thank you, everyone.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on December 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on December 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
WSJ gift link: U.S. Sends Israel 2,000-Pound Bunker Buster Bombs for Gaza War
Some security analysts say the weapons transfers could undercut the administration’s pressure on Israel to protect civilians. “It seems inconsistent with reported exhortations from Secretary Blinken and others to use smaller-diameter bombs,” said Brian Finucane, a senior adviser at the nonprofit International Crisis Group, and a former attorney-advisor at the State Department.
Unlike in Ukraine where the U.S. has published regular updates on some of the weapons it has provided to support Kyiv’s fight against the Russian invasion, Washington has disclosed little about how many and what types of weapons it has sent to Israel during the current conflict...
“They are kind of the weapons of choice for the fights we had in Afghanistan and Syria in open, nonurban areas,” said Mick Mulroy, a former deputy assistant secretary of defense and officer in the Marine Corps and C.I.A. “The U.S. may use them in more urban areas, but first it would do a lot of target analysis to make sure the attack was proportional and based on military necessity.”
...U.S. officials say Israel used an American-provided bomb with a large payload in one of the deadliest strikes of the entire war, an attack that leveled an apartment block in Gaza’s Jabalia refugee camp, killing more than 100 people. Israel said the strike killed a Hamas leader.
posted by mediareport at 2:45 AM on December 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some security analysts say the weapons transfers could undercut the administration’s pressure on Israel to protect civilians. “It seems inconsistent with reported exhortations from Secretary Blinken and others to use smaller-diameter bombs,” said Brian Finucane, a senior adviser at the nonprofit International Crisis Group, and a former attorney-advisor at the State Department.
Unlike in Ukraine where the U.S. has published regular updates on some of the weapons it has provided to support Kyiv’s fight against the Russian invasion, Washington has disclosed little about how many and what types of weapons it has sent to Israel during the current conflict...
“They are kind of the weapons of choice for the fights we had in Afghanistan and Syria in open, nonurban areas,” said Mick Mulroy, a former deputy assistant secretary of defense and officer in the Marine Corps and C.I.A. “The U.S. may use them in more urban areas, but first it would do a lot of target analysis to make sure the attack was proportional and based on military necessity.”
...U.S. officials say Israel used an American-provided bomb with a large payload in one of the deadliest strikes of the entire war, an attack that leveled an apartment block in Gaza’s Jabalia refugee camp, killing more than 100 people. Israel said the strike killed a Hamas leader.
posted by mediareport at 2:45 AM on December 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Norman Finkelstein showing up on Candace Owens podcast?
Finkelstein disappeared for a while and then reemergence as of late, I never heard him talk about politics outside of I/P stuff but in his recent writings he’s made some jokes about pronouns and everyone switching genders nowadays. Oh well.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:56 AM on December 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Finkelstein disappeared for a while and then reemergence as of late, I never heard him talk about politics outside of I/P stuff but in his recent writings he’s made some jokes about pronouns and everyone switching genders nowadays. Oh well.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:56 AM on December 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Another Ha'aretz op-ed from a bereaved relative: I Lost My Son to the War With Hamas. Force and Violence Aren't the Solution (archive)
We are hurting. All of us. And when we’re hurting – especially when we’re hurting – there is an illusion that force and violence will bring good to someone, will help us out of this mess...the easiest thing is to slip into an escalation of hostilities, when each side sees only its own pain and ignites an uncontrollable a conflagration. Because in the end, we all lose out when that happens, we all suffer.
The idea that seven million Jews can rule millions of Palestinians with violent force, forever, without paying a steep price in the loss of democracy or of our children’s blood, is an illusion. An illusion that was shattered on October 7. There are some who believe that all that’s needed is more force, better protection. Yet we have seen that there is no wall high enough to block hatred.
It’s not bleeding-heart idealism that motivates me – I have three other children and I want them to have the prospect of a better future. I don’t believe there is any way to achieve that other than by engaging in the hard, Sisyphean labor of seeing the humanity of the Other, of understanding the Other and of trying to relate to their story, the way Yannai did.
posted by mediareport at 3:03 AM on December 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
We are hurting. All of us. And when we’re hurting – especially when we’re hurting – there is an illusion that force and violence will bring good to someone, will help us out of this mess...the easiest thing is to slip into an escalation of hostilities, when each side sees only its own pain and ignites an uncontrollable a conflagration. Because in the end, we all lose out when that happens, we all suffer.
The idea that seven million Jews can rule millions of Palestinians with violent force, forever, without paying a steep price in the loss of democracy or of our children’s blood, is an illusion. An illusion that was shattered on October 7. There are some who believe that all that’s needed is more force, better protection. Yet we have seen that there is no wall high enough to block hatred.
It’s not bleeding-heart idealism that motivates me – I have three other children and I want them to have the prospect of a better future. I don’t believe there is any way to achieve that other than by engaging in the hard, Sisyphean labor of seeing the humanity of the Other, of understanding the Other and of trying to relate to their story, the way Yannai did.
posted by mediareport at 3:03 AM on December 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
(just adding a note that archive.is and related sites are working for me on my phone right now, but send me into an endless captcha loop on my laptop. Since the alternative is not to post Ha'aretz links, I'll continue to link there, with an archive.is link when possible, but trust you to either subscribe like I did or find your own alternatives if that doesn't work.)
posted by mediareport at 3:07 AM on December 2, 2023
posted by mediareport at 3:07 AM on December 2, 2023
I suspect there is a sort of tipping point past which trying to change Israeli policy WRT Palestinians and Palestinian territory is more or less not possible and the only real question is harm mitigation, similar to the idea of a climate tipping point past which efforts to keep the average temp increase below X degrees C is more or less impossible and the only real question is harm mitigation and moving on to trying to keep it from going above X+1 degrees C.
At some point it seems likely there will be so much Palestinian land taken, so many Palestinians evicted or killed, and so many Palestinians out for bloody vengeance due to Israeli atrocities and so many Israelis out for bloody vengeance due to Palestinian atrocities that Netanyahu's goal of a single Israeli state that includes all current Palestinian territory and no significant number of new Palestinian citizens will be more or less inevitable.
Which means the big question is: have we passed that tipping point yet?
And how could we tell one way or the other?
How much land does it take to make a viable Palestinian state? Is it even possible to consider any non-contiguous land viable as a state at all? How many Palestinians can live and prosper in that land and if the answer isn't "all of them including the refugees currently outside Israeli controlled territory" then I think that's not going to be enough land.
And is there anything that can be done to shift a majority of Israeli public opinion towards supporting such a two state solution? Especially since the advocates of the evict all Palestinians strategy can say they're winning?
The fact that Netanyahu remains in office is empirical proof that the majority of voting Israelis currently do not want a two state solution and are either in support of or indifferent to an ongoing effort to squeeze out the Palestinian people from the territory they currently live in. Is that changeable? If so, how?
I think that's the most vital question because if we HAVE passed the tipping point already, and there really is not any real chance of ending Israeli aggression and getting a viable Palestinian state established, then much as it hurts to give the bad guys a win, our most moral option is looking for ways to get Palestinians settled outside Israel and outside the refugee camps. The idea of cooperating in an ethnic cleansing, even in the passive sense of helping those expelled find a new place to live, seems immoral. But if the alternative is those same displaced people being killed or pushed into godawful refugee camps then it does appear to be the right thing to do even if, as it does so often, doing good means feeling bad and like coward or traitor.
posted by sotonohito at 11:22 AM on December 2, 2023
At some point it seems likely there will be so much Palestinian land taken, so many Palestinians evicted or killed, and so many Palestinians out for bloody vengeance due to Israeli atrocities and so many Israelis out for bloody vengeance due to Palestinian atrocities that Netanyahu's goal of a single Israeli state that includes all current Palestinian territory and no significant number of new Palestinian citizens will be more or less inevitable.
Which means the big question is: have we passed that tipping point yet?
And how could we tell one way or the other?
How much land does it take to make a viable Palestinian state? Is it even possible to consider any non-contiguous land viable as a state at all? How many Palestinians can live and prosper in that land and if the answer isn't "all of them including the refugees currently outside Israeli controlled territory" then I think that's not going to be enough land.
And is there anything that can be done to shift a majority of Israeli public opinion towards supporting such a two state solution? Especially since the advocates of the evict all Palestinians strategy can say they're winning?
The fact that Netanyahu remains in office is empirical proof that the majority of voting Israelis currently do not want a two state solution and are either in support of or indifferent to an ongoing effort to squeeze out the Palestinian people from the territory they currently live in. Is that changeable? If so, how?
I think that's the most vital question because if we HAVE passed the tipping point already, and there really is not any real chance of ending Israeli aggression and getting a viable Palestinian state established, then much as it hurts to give the bad guys a win, our most moral option is looking for ways to get Palestinians settled outside Israel and outside the refugee camps. The idea of cooperating in an ethnic cleansing, even in the passive sense of helping those expelled find a new place to live, seems immoral. But if the alternative is those same displaced people being killed or pushed into godawful refugee camps then it does appear to be the right thing to do even if, as it does so often, doing good means feeling bad and like coward or traitor.
posted by sotonohito at 11:22 AM on December 2, 2023
"The fact that Netanyahu remains in office is empirical proof that the majority of voting Israelis currently do not want a two state solution and are either in support of or indifferent to an ongoing effort to squeeze out the Palestinian people from the territory they currently live in."
There needs to be a defection from his govt before a new election could be held. He won't go on his own, so he stays PM until enough parties bail that he loses a confidence vote in the Knesset. You may be right about what the Israeli majority believes, but Netanyahu's continuing tenure only shows that current members of the coalition believe they are better off that way.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:09 PM on December 2, 2023
There needs to be a defection from his govt before a new election could be held. He won't go on his own, so he stays PM until enough parties bail that he loses a confidence vote in the Knesset. You may be right about what the Israeli majority believes, but Netanyahu's continuing tenure only shows that current members of the coalition believe they are better off that way.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:09 PM on December 2, 2023
'The US will not allow the redrawing of Gaza's borders or forced relocation of its residents, Vice President Kamala Harris told Egypt's president Saturday, amid fears Israel could use the war to seize parts of Gaza and expel Palestinians up.'
if I read in the story correctly this is proactive diplomacy. hopefully the United States has laid traction for the foundations of these tenants for a peace.
Washington has disclosed little about how many and what types of weapons it has sent to Israel during the current conflict...
"As of October 2023, the United States has 599 active Foreign Military Sales (FMS) cases, valued at $23.8 billion, with Israel. FMS cases notified to Congress are listed here; priority initiatives include: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft; CH-53K Heavy Lift Helicopters; KC-46A Aerial Refueling Tankers; and precision-guided munitions...The top categories of DCS to Israel were XIX-Toxicological Agents, Including Chemical Agents, Biological Agents, and Associated Equipment (this includes detection equipment ((f)), vaccines ((g)-(h)) and modeling software ((i)); IV- Launch Vehicles, Guided Missiles, Ballistic Missiles, Rockets, Torpedoes, Bombs, and Mines; and VII- Aircraft."
It seems 28 billion for 599 weapons contracts that are open. So more weapons will pour in....or not.
the f-35a 5th generation fighter aircraft is in demand I believe the contracts to Europe alone are for around 200+aircraft.
I believe it was in July this year Israel had put in that order for significant amount of F-35 ensuring air superiority over that region until at least 2040.
posted by clavdivs at 2:17 PM on December 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
if I read in the story correctly this is proactive diplomacy. hopefully the United States has laid traction for the foundations of these tenants for a peace.
Washington has disclosed little about how many and what types of weapons it has sent to Israel during the current conflict...
"As of October 2023, the United States has 599 active Foreign Military Sales (FMS) cases, valued at $23.8 billion, with Israel. FMS cases notified to Congress are listed here; priority initiatives include: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft; CH-53K Heavy Lift Helicopters; KC-46A Aerial Refueling Tankers; and precision-guided munitions...The top categories of DCS to Israel were XIX-Toxicological Agents, Including Chemical Agents, Biological Agents, and Associated Equipment (this includes detection equipment ((f)), vaccines ((g)-(h)) and modeling software ((i)); IV- Launch Vehicles, Guided Missiles, Ballistic Missiles, Rockets, Torpedoes, Bombs, and Mines; and VII- Aircraft."
It seems 28 billion for 599 weapons contracts that are open. So more weapons will pour in....or not.
the f-35a 5th generation fighter aircraft is in demand I believe the contracts to Europe alone are for around 200+aircraft.
I believe it was in July this year Israel had put in that order for significant amount of F-35 ensuring air superiority over that region until at least 2040.
posted by clavdivs at 2:17 PM on December 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I suspect there is a sort of tipping point past which trying to change Israeli policy WRT Palestinians and Palestinian territory is more or less not possible
That's the plan, Stan.
I suspect there is a sort of tipping point past which trying to change Israeli policy WRT Palestinians and Palestinian territory is more or less not possible
Israel's current "activities" in Gaza and the West Bank, and opacity around what the Gaza endgame is, suggest that they're hoping to get there ASAP.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:53 PM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's the plan, Stan.
I suspect there is a sort of tipping point past which trying to change Israeli policy WRT Palestinians and Palestinian territory is more or less not possible
Israel's current "activities" in Gaza and the West Bank, and opacity around what the Gaza endgame is, suggest that they're hoping to get there ASAP.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:53 PM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
(sorry, second quoted line was supposed to be:
Which means the big question is: have we passed that tipping point yet? )
posted by Artful Codger at 3:09 PM on December 2, 2023
Which means the big question is: have we passed that tipping point yet? )
posted by Artful Codger at 3:09 PM on December 2, 2023
In a previous thread I posted a video from October 7th saying "They seem to imply that parts of the Israeli civilian casualties on Oct 7 are from friendly fire by Apache helicopters"
That video that Lanark has linked to has been debunked by GeoConfirmed
A new report on the issue, but still no detail on the numbers:
Israel admits it killed its own at Nova music festival - A police investigation shows Israeli Apache helicopters opened fire on attendees of the Nova music festival during the 7 October Hamas attack.
Original source in Hebrew [x]
posted by Lanark at 3:29 PM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
That video that Lanark has linked to has been debunked by GeoConfirmed
A new report on the issue, but still no detail on the numbers:
Israel admits it killed its own at Nova music festival - A police investigation shows Israeli Apache helicopters opened fire on attendees of the Nova music festival during the 7 October Hamas attack.
Original source in Hebrew [x]
posted by Lanark at 3:29 PM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Translations of the messages of the Gazan journalists:
Translation of Saleh Aljafarawi's - 'God knows, I've overextended myself while
trying to overcome my pain and exhaustion
because I know that many people rely on
me for strength. And I know I must not
weaken because Palestine needs me. But
ya Allah, I've seen so many horrors -I cry
myself to sleep, I have nightmares every
night. It's been 58 days since I last heard
news of my family, since I was last able to
contact them, and yet I continue to post
and share. But it looks like the world will not
answer our call. God willing, you will wake
up when we're exterminated and wiped off
the face of the earth 👍🏽
Translation of Motaz's - “Hello
The stage of taking risks to share what things look like is over,the stage of trying to survive has begun. I have shared enough and I swear before God that it was for Him and in service of my homeland.
We are now living through the beginning of a blockade from the inside
We are not able to exit either towards the North or the South.
The Israeli tanks surround the Middle Area from North to South.
Our situation is more tragic than you can even imagine.
Remember that we are not social media content to be shared
We are a people being killed and a cause, we are trying to not be erased from existence.
Oh how alone we are!”
Screenshot from Bisan -
I no longer have any hope of survival like I had at the beginning of this genocide, and I am certain that I will die in the next few weeks or maybe days. I have been sick with severe viral infection for days and
cannot move from the mattress!
I suffer from nightmares that are so closely resemble reality that I no longer differentiate between reality and dream.
I live in a world other than the one I claimed to be building! I am a community activist who lived on the fantasy that the world was free and just, and I sought to bring rights not only to my people, but to many men and women in third world countries!
I was shocked that I was not from the third world!
Indeed, we are the most humane and moral! Yes, because the world approves, supports, and finances the genocide we are being subjected to, legislates it, and gives reasons for for 58 days! While we are a people who have been living on occupied land for 75
years and are still searching for our rights and communicating our voice to the world!
My message to the world: You are not innocent of what is happening to us, you as governments or peoples that support Israel's annihilation of my people. We will not forgive you, we will not forgive you, humanity will not forgive you, we will not forget, even if we die, the history will never forget
A Message to friends: Thank you and the supporters around the world. You have been compassionate and very strong. We ask you not to lose hope, even if the world seems completely unfair and your efforts have
not yet resulted in a ceasefire
These were when I was asleep, about 6-7 hours ago.
posted by cendawanita at 6:35 PM on December 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
Translation of Saleh Aljafarawi's - 'God knows, I've overextended myself while
trying to overcome my pain and exhaustion
because I know that many people rely on
me for strength. And I know I must not
weaken because Palestine needs me. But
ya Allah, I've seen so many horrors -I cry
myself to sleep, I have nightmares every
night. It's been 58 days since I last heard
news of my family, since I was last able to
contact them, and yet I continue to post
and share. But it looks like the world will not
answer our call. God willing, you will wake
up when we're exterminated and wiped off
the face of the earth 👍🏽
Translation of Motaz's - “Hello
The stage of taking risks to share what things look like is over,the stage of trying to survive has begun. I have shared enough and I swear before God that it was for Him and in service of my homeland.
We are now living through the beginning of a blockade from the inside
We are not able to exit either towards the North or the South.
The Israeli tanks surround the Middle Area from North to South.
Our situation is more tragic than you can even imagine.
Remember that we are not social media content to be shared
We are a people being killed and a cause, we are trying to not be erased from existence.
Oh how alone we are!”
Screenshot from Bisan -
I no longer have any hope of survival like I had at the beginning of this genocide, and I am certain that I will die in the next few weeks or maybe days. I have been sick with severe viral infection for days and
cannot move from the mattress!
I suffer from nightmares that are so closely resemble reality that I no longer differentiate between reality and dream.
I live in a world other than the one I claimed to be building! I am a community activist who lived on the fantasy that the world was free and just, and I sought to bring rights not only to my people, but to many men and women in third world countries!
I was shocked that I was not from the third world!
Indeed, we are the most humane and moral! Yes, because the world approves, supports, and finances the genocide we are being subjected to, legislates it, and gives reasons for for 58 days! While we are a people who have been living on occupied land for 75
years and are still searching for our rights and communicating our voice to the world!
My message to the world: You are not innocent of what is happening to us, you as governments or peoples that support Israel's annihilation of my people. We will not forgive you, we will not forgive you, humanity will not forgive you, we will not forget, even if we die, the history will never forget
A Message to friends: Thank you and the supporters around the world. You have been compassionate and very strong. We ask you not to lose hope, even if the world seems completely unfair and your efforts have
not yet resulted in a ceasefire
These were when I was asleep, about 6-7 hours ago.
posted by cendawanita at 6:35 PM on December 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
Mouin Rabbani: According to journalists in the Gaza Strip, the US-sponsored and supplied Israeli military is using a tactic it often used in Lebanon. Bomb a building, wait for crowds to gather for rescue efforts, then bomb it again.
(Then someone linked to this piece in MEE - "Double-tap" strikes are becoming increasingly common in modern warfare.
The controversial military tactic is defined by armed drones or war planes attacking a site and then returning to attack the same area again as people are carrying out rescue work.
Pro-government forces in Syria, the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen, and Israeli operations in Gaza have all come under fire for reportedly intentionally targeting civilians and first-responders attending to the injured.)
New piece from Hisham Awartani - This is not about Hisham Awartani though. It was never about me. On November 15 I joined my fellow Brown students to write the names of thousands of Palestinians killed in the war on Gaza. They gave us a document issued by the Gaza Health Ministry, and out of curiosity the first thing I did was look up my name. There were 30 results. 13 people named Hisham and 17 with Hisham as a middle name. I didn’t know how to feel. My name was not a common one. The list was incomplete and only included around 6,500 names, while an estimated 11,000 had been killed by Israel or according to American media, “had died.” Had I been one of those Hishams in Gaza my picture would not have been on the BBC or CNN. Instead of being interviewed, my mother would be fleeing south or already killed, trapped under the rubble with me.
I am the Hisham you know. I lived. My story is being told. The 13 other Hishams were killed, their stories forever erased. They were human and they did not have to prove that to anyone. They knew no respite, no justice, no peace.
Hisham Ali Hisham Awartani
هشام علي هشام عورتاني
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on December 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
(Then someone linked to this piece in MEE - "Double-tap" strikes are becoming increasingly common in modern warfare.
The controversial military tactic is defined by armed drones or war planes attacking a site and then returning to attack the same area again as people are carrying out rescue work.
Pro-government forces in Syria, the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen, and Israeli operations in Gaza have all come under fire for reportedly intentionally targeting civilians and first-responders attending to the injured.)
New piece from Hisham Awartani - This is not about Hisham Awartani though. It was never about me. On November 15 I joined my fellow Brown students to write the names of thousands of Palestinians killed in the war on Gaza. They gave us a document issued by the Gaza Health Ministry, and out of curiosity the first thing I did was look up my name. There were 30 results. 13 people named Hisham and 17 with Hisham as a middle name. I didn’t know how to feel. My name was not a common one. The list was incomplete and only included around 6,500 names, while an estimated 11,000 had been killed by Israel or according to American media, “had died.” Had I been one of those Hishams in Gaza my picture would not have been on the BBC or CNN. Instead of being interviewed, my mother would be fleeing south or already killed, trapped under the rubble with me.
I am the Hisham you know. I lived. My story is being told. The 13 other Hishams were killed, their stories forever erased. They were human and they did not have to prove that to anyone. They knew no respite, no justice, no peace.
Hisham Ali Hisham Awartani
هشام علي هشام عورتاني
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on December 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
This tweet said that the #1 song in Israel was calling for genocide and to kill known celebrities who voiced support for Palestine, so I looked it up. Here's the news article about it, calling it war anthem. Here's the video with translation. Content warning for language used.
I can't seem to access this Israel Hayom article, but according to Ryan Grim - Netanyahu, according to the Israeli press, has instructed Ron Dermer, his Minister of Strategic Planning and a very close aide, to explore ways to "thin out" the Gaza population. Along with the renewed proposal to push them through the Rafah crossing into Egypt, the English translation of the report adds:
"The Sea is also open to Gazans. At its will, Israel opens the sea crossing and enables a mass escape to European and African countries."
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on December 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
I can't seem to access this Israel Hayom article, but according to Ryan Grim - Netanyahu, according to the Israeli press, has instructed Ron Dermer, his Minister of Strategic Planning and a very close aide, to explore ways to "thin out" the Gaza population. Along with the renewed proposal to push them through the Rafah crossing into Egypt, the English translation of the report adds:
"The Sea is also open to Gazans. At its will, Israel opens the sea crossing and enables a mass escape to European and African countries."
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on December 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
What Israelis Think of the War With Hamas
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:59 PM on December 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Poll results were also hawkish when it came to the use of force in Gaza: 57.5% of Israeli Jews said that they believed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were using too little firepower in Gaza, 36.6% said the IDF was using an appropriate amount of firepower, while just 1.8% said they believed the IDF was using too much fire power, while 4.2% said they weren’t sure whether it was using too much or too little firepower.Doctors Without Borders: Attack on organization’s convoy ‘deliberate’
Doctors Without Borders said the Israeli military’s attack on one of its convoys last month that left two dead was deliberate, according to an internal investigation.Jerusalem Post Retracts Article Claiming That Dead Palestinian Baby Was a Doll
The nonprofit, also called Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) internationally, said that internal investigations of the attack confirmed the organization’s original suspicion that it was “deliberate” and the action was taken “against clearly identified MSF vehicles.”
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:59 PM on December 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
> This tweet said that the #1 song in Israel was calling for genocide and to kill known celebrities who voiced support for Palestine, so I looked it up. Here's the news article about it, calling it war anthem. Here's the video with translation. Content warning for language used.
It's so unfathomable that we're watching a genocide unfold live in front of us and nothing i can do can stop it and what's worse is countless people celebrate it openly at the same time that they deny it. This music video was one of the most unsettling things i've seen. I've written and rewritten about a 1000 thoughts here and I feel like nothing is adequate to the horrors.
posted by dis_integration at 7:51 PM on December 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
It's so unfathomable that we're watching a genocide unfold live in front of us and nothing i can do can stop it and what's worse is countless people celebrate it openly at the same time that they deny it. This music video was one of the most unsettling things i've seen. I've written and rewritten about a 1000 thoughts here and I feel like nothing is adequate to the horrors.
posted by dis_integration at 7:51 PM on December 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
They're going to get away with, aren't they? Biden will issue occasional warnings not to use too be much force, minor protests might issue forth from the US press, but in the meantime we'll keep the armory open to supply them with weapons. The only question is whether the rest of the Middle East gets too scared of the refugees and their own restive populations that they can't afford to stay on the sidelines, which would trigger a wider regional war inevitably dragging in the US.
I've never felt more disgusted with my government in my entire life - and I lived through the second Iraq War. At least the Bush II administration had the decency to pretend to care about the Iraqis they were bombing even if everynone with a brain knew it was bullshit.
posted by eagles123 at 8:05 PM on December 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
I've never felt more disgusted with my government in my entire life - and I lived through the second Iraq War. At least the Bush II administration had the decency to pretend to care about the Iraqis they were bombing even if everynone with a brain knew it was bullshit.
posted by eagles123 at 8:05 PM on December 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Here's the video with translation. Content warning for language used.
Triumph of the Shrill
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:42 PM on December 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Triumph of the Shrill
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:42 PM on December 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
They're going to get away with, aren't they?
That's what I said, on Oct 7th, it was plain as day. A short, high intensity operation, ending by end of December.
Israel's military doctrine has always been couched in terms of asymmetric warfare - a much smaller nation surrounded by larger, hostile nations who have simultaneously attacked it more than once in its recent history. Whether you count those aggressors as all Arabs, or all 1.9 billion Muslims, against 16 million Jews, the odds are as bad as 100 to 1. Due to their low population, they cannot fight the kind of grinding war like Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria or Yemen is currently experiencing, leading to around 300,000 deaths in each one. Any military action they undertake is physically constrained to be short and high intensity, hence the Dahiya Doctrine where they retaliate with disproportionate force to deter future attacks from other state and non state actors - if they show weakness in their response to Hamas, it could embolden Hezbollah or other state / non-state actors. One of the UK journalists embedded with an IDF unit as they first crossed into Gaza interviewed a soldier who said he was a mortgage broker, and said he was just here to do his job to keep his family at home safe - there is no way this conflict lasts much longer, as Israel's economy slowly grinds to a halt.
Israel simply doesn't have the capability of fighting a "peer" or "overmatch" war the same way the US might fight one.
The only type of war they can fight is an asymmetric one, where they use devastating and disproportionate retaliation to deter future attacks.
They see themselves in an existential battle, with surrounding Arab states purging their Jewish population. The Jewish population in Yemen declined from about 60,000 in 1900, to around 1,500 in 2016, to literally 1 remaining today in jail, according to the UN OHCHR Report A/HRC/49/44.
In 2006, in response to two IDF soldiers being abducted by Hezbollah into Lebanon, Israel fired 170,000 artillery shells and launched 11,000 air sorties, hitting Hezbollah targets but also power plants, bridges, agricultural canals, and even "salted" Southern Lebanon with millions of cluster submunitions (previous post on the blue). That's the Dahiya doctrine in action.
Then Oct 7th happened, and given the number of civilians abducted, the response was always going to be 100x greater. What does 100x greater than Lebanon 2006 even look like?
Well, as per the link mentioned above, the majority of Israeli Jews think the IDF is using too little force in Gaza. Only 10% agreed that the government should even have a ceasefire to exchange hostages.
Look at how the US responded to Russia invading Ukraine - some sanctions, sent them some HIMARS maybe 4 months later. I don't see the US sending any HIMARS to Hamas, and besides, the war would be long over by then due to the aforementioned constraints on the IDF. The US is already talking sanctions on West Bank settlers, but honestly, is anyone going to tell their government to bow to international pressure so they can go on their annual overseas holiday?
posted by xdvesper at 9:49 PM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's what I said, on Oct 7th, it was plain as day. A short, high intensity operation, ending by end of December.
Israel's military doctrine has always been couched in terms of asymmetric warfare - a much smaller nation surrounded by larger, hostile nations who have simultaneously attacked it more than once in its recent history. Whether you count those aggressors as all Arabs, or all 1.9 billion Muslims, against 16 million Jews, the odds are as bad as 100 to 1. Due to their low population, they cannot fight the kind of grinding war like Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria or Yemen is currently experiencing, leading to around 300,000 deaths in each one. Any military action they undertake is physically constrained to be short and high intensity, hence the Dahiya Doctrine where they retaliate with disproportionate force to deter future attacks from other state and non state actors - if they show weakness in their response to Hamas, it could embolden Hezbollah or other state / non-state actors. One of the UK journalists embedded with an IDF unit as they first crossed into Gaza interviewed a soldier who said he was a mortgage broker, and said he was just here to do his job to keep his family at home safe - there is no way this conflict lasts much longer, as Israel's economy slowly grinds to a halt.
Israel simply doesn't have the capability of fighting a "peer" or "overmatch" war the same way the US might fight one.
The only type of war they can fight is an asymmetric one, where they use devastating and disproportionate retaliation to deter future attacks.
They see themselves in an existential battle, with surrounding Arab states purging their Jewish population. The Jewish population in Yemen declined from about 60,000 in 1900, to around 1,500 in 2016, to literally 1 remaining today in jail, according to the UN OHCHR Report A/HRC/49/44.
In 2006, in response to two IDF soldiers being abducted by Hezbollah into Lebanon, Israel fired 170,000 artillery shells and launched 11,000 air sorties, hitting Hezbollah targets but also power plants, bridges, agricultural canals, and even "salted" Southern Lebanon with millions of cluster submunitions (previous post on the blue). That's the Dahiya doctrine in action.
Then Oct 7th happened, and given the number of civilians abducted, the response was always going to be 100x greater. What does 100x greater than Lebanon 2006 even look like?
Well, as per the link mentioned above, the majority of Israeli Jews think the IDF is using too little force in Gaza. Only 10% agreed that the government should even have a ceasefire to exchange hostages.
Look at how the US responded to Russia invading Ukraine - some sanctions, sent them some HIMARS maybe 4 months later. I don't see the US sending any HIMARS to Hamas, and besides, the war would be long over by then due to the aforementioned constraints on the IDF. The US is already talking sanctions on West Bank settlers, but honestly, is anyone going to tell their government to bow to international pressure so they can go on their annual overseas holiday?
posted by xdvesper at 9:49 PM on December 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Filing this under, "fwiw":
Asma Khalid (this predates the Gazan tweets I shared above by a couple of hours, if I got my calculations right):
VP Harris gave remarks today in Dubai that were among the more nuanced comments I’ve heard from the Biden admin about the conflict between Israel and Hamas.
They were the VP’s most extensive public comments to date about the situation.
A few things that stood out to me below:
She gave a clear summary of what the US wants to see in Gaza post-conflict.
“No forcible displacement, no reoccupation, no siege or blockade, no reduction in territory, and no use of Gaza as a platform for terrorism,” she said.
“The Palestinian Authority's security forces must be strengthened to eventually assume security responsibilities in Gaza. Until then, there must be security arrangements that are acceptable to Israel, the people of Gaza, the (PA), and international partners,” she added.
She reiterated that Israel has a right to defend itself, adding that it “must do more to protect civilian life.”
“Too many innocent Palestinians have been killed. Frankly, the scale of civilian suffering and the images and videos coming from Gaza are devastating,” she said.
It's hard to not use the words 'rogue state', not the least of which that it's not accurate considering where Israel is still located in the international order, but what on earth is left? From my perspective, never mind the Second Iraq War, is this how adults felt during the runup to the Bosnian War?
In any case, my YouTube algorithms passed along a couple of recent Ilan Pappé interviews, and he's clearly now emphasizing the role the global south can play (he's basically given up on the global north). This one with the Iranian YouTuber is interesting because there's a dimension there that I've noticed - the pro-democracy/anti-mullah Iranians have been more split or more critical of the Palestinian cause because of Hamas due to their domestic context (to the point that if I can spot that dimension in the Iranian diaspora like the journos and fact checkers or even Yashar Ali who are neither then I can expect their angle. Which is fine, it's good to be clear). This one with a Nigerian radio is also interesting - and he repeats the point that the Palestinians felt despair that they felt the international community abandoned them. But it's also interesting because here it's a given that this is a matter of racism and also how Christian Zionism that drives support for Israel here.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 PM on December 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Asma Khalid (this predates the Gazan tweets I shared above by a couple of hours, if I got my calculations right):
VP Harris gave remarks today in Dubai that were among the more nuanced comments I’ve heard from the Biden admin about the conflict between Israel and Hamas.
They were the VP’s most extensive public comments to date about the situation.
A few things that stood out to me below:
She gave a clear summary of what the US wants to see in Gaza post-conflict.
“No forcible displacement, no reoccupation, no siege or blockade, no reduction in territory, and no use of Gaza as a platform for terrorism,” she said.
“The Palestinian Authority's security forces must be strengthened to eventually assume security responsibilities in Gaza. Until then, there must be security arrangements that are acceptable to Israel, the people of Gaza, the (PA), and international partners,” she added.
She reiterated that Israel has a right to defend itself, adding that it “must do more to protect civilian life.”
“Too many innocent Palestinians have been killed. Frankly, the scale of civilian suffering and the images and videos coming from Gaza are devastating,” she said.
It's hard to not use the words 'rogue state', not the least of which that it's not accurate considering where Israel is still located in the international order, but what on earth is left? From my perspective, never mind the Second Iraq War, is this how adults felt during the runup to the Bosnian War?
In any case, my YouTube algorithms passed along a couple of recent Ilan Pappé interviews, and he's clearly now emphasizing the role the global south can play (he's basically given up on the global north). This one with the Iranian YouTuber is interesting because there's a dimension there that I've noticed - the pro-democracy/anti-mullah Iranians have been more split or more critical of the Palestinian cause because of Hamas due to their domestic context (to the point that if I can spot that dimension in the Iranian diaspora like the journos and fact checkers or even Yashar Ali who are neither then I can expect their angle. Which is fine, it's good to be clear). This one with a Nigerian radio is also interesting - and he repeats the point that the Palestinians felt despair that they felt the international community abandoned them. But it's also interesting because here it's a given that this is a matter of racism and also how Christian Zionism that drives support for Israel here.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 PM on December 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel has nuclear weapons. It also has the backing of the worlds most powerful nation and military.
Then there is this report from Amensty International of Israel's actions towards the Palestians during the the entire 21st century really.
Sorry, nothing justfies this. All my life US politicians have claimed to uphold and international order or rules, laws, and human rights that are now being violated on scale beyond comprehension.
posted by eagles123 at 10:59 PM on December 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Then there is this report from Amensty International of Israel's actions towards the Palestians during the the entire 21st century really.
Sorry, nothing justfies this. All my life US politicians have claimed to uphold and international order or rules, laws, and human rights that are now being violated on scale beyond comprehension.
posted by eagles123 at 10:59 PM on December 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Dahiya doctrine is a war crime. It inherently relies on utterly disproportionate response.
posted by Dysk at 1:56 AM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:56 AM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Only just surfaced on my TL, a tweet from the official Israel account yesterday. Note phrasing with the numbering: 8 weeks ago today, over 1,000 of our loved ones were murdered by Hamas terrorists.
Sorry if I had overlooked this, I didn't see anyone make a big deal about this update. Glad that official Israeli lives lost that day continue to be confirmed downwards.
Hisham Awartani's cousin posted that he is looking at paralysis from the chest down. The GoFundMe.
Dimi Reider's thread on the domestic fallout from the Jerusalem shooting and the gunning of the civilian who stopped the shooting. Threadreader version.
posted by cendawanita at 3:49 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sorry if I had overlooked this, I didn't see anyone make a big deal about this update. Glad that official Israeli lives lost that day continue to be confirmed downwards.
Hisham Awartani's cousin posted that he is looking at paralysis from the chest down. The GoFundMe.
Dimi Reider's thread on the domestic fallout from the Jerusalem shooting and the gunning of the civilian who stopped the shooting. Threadreader version.
posted by cendawanita at 3:49 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ah accidentally hit post too quick. The bit from the thread I wanted to share:
11. When more security arrive they assume Castleman was a gunman so they let him bleed out.
12. Castleman bleeds to death.
13. The settler-soldier who executed him gives smug interviews and gets much kudos from other far-right figures (they later erase the tweets.)
14. The army and police spend say they won't be investigating, before u-turning under pressure.
15. Netanyahu chips in days later, and says: I support the policy of handing out weapons; sometimes there's a price to pay, but c'est la vie.
17. C'EST LA VIE. That's what he said, albeit in Hebrew: אלו החיים).
18. RIP, Doron Yuval Castleman. A hero. Right guy, right place, right time. Wrong government. Wrong kind of state.
19. Maddeningly, much of Israeli media describe him as killed "accidentally" or as victim to "friendly fire." He was deliberately executed by uniformed neonazi douchebag who was too hyped up to stop, and, in his own words, all so hyped to mark an "x" on his rifle.
20. There will be many, many more Castlemans.
Update: Castleman's uncle says that three days after the killing, the family are yet to be contacted by any officials, and police are still not treating this as a murder investigation.
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on December 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
11. When more security arrive they assume Castleman was a gunman so they let him bleed out.
12. Castleman bleeds to death.
13. The settler-soldier who executed him gives smug interviews and gets much kudos from other far-right figures (they later erase the tweets.)
14. The army and police spend say they won't be investigating, before u-turning under pressure.
15. Netanyahu chips in days later, and says: I support the policy of handing out weapons; sometimes there's a price to pay, but c'est la vie.
17. C'EST LA VIE. That's what he said, albeit in Hebrew: אלו החיים).
18. RIP, Doron Yuval Castleman. A hero. Right guy, right place, right time. Wrong government. Wrong kind of state.
19. Maddeningly, much of Israeli media describe him as killed "accidentally" or as victim to "friendly fire." He was deliberately executed by uniformed neonazi douchebag who was too hyped up to stop, and, in his own words, all so hyped to mark an "x" on his rifle.
20. There will be many, many more Castlemans.
Update: Castleman's uncle says that three days after the killing, the family are yet to be contacted by any officials, and police are still not treating this as a murder investigation.
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on December 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am just agog that you’re describing the Israel-Hamas war as asymmetric with Israel being the weaker party. THEY HAVE NUKES.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:46 AM on December 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:46 AM on December 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Also ‘Israel has no choice but to murder 5000+ kids’ is a helluva take.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:49 AM on December 3, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:49 AM on December 3, 2023 [19 favorites]
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/israel-intercepted-hamas-massacre-plan-dismissed-2786909
Israel knew about the plans for 10/7 more than a year in advance, but discounted Palestinian ability and desire to carry them out.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:02 AM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel knew about the plans for 10/7 more than a year in advance, but discounted Palestinian ability and desire to carry them out.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:02 AM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
English version to follow but Haaretz reporting on the various claims by Israel about Oct 7 in Hebrew . According to this thread by Muhammad Shehada:
🚨Important! Haaretz definitively debunks iconic horror stories from Oct 7:
40 beheaded babies
Baby burned in oven
A pregnant woman's stomach opened & her fetus removed
Children bound together & burned
Pregnant hostage giving birth
Haaretz says only 1 baby was killed on Oct 7🧵
2\ The report is in Hebrew for now (English version will follow soon). It maintains that other atrocities were committed on Oct 7, but thoroughly debunks the stories of beheaded babies, a disemboweled pregnant woman, children burned together, baby in oven!
3\ Here [video of call from Netanyahu's office] Netanyahu told Biden "They took dozens of children, tied them up, burned them and executed them". Biden fell for it instantly.
Haaretz now says this claim "does not exactly correspond to the picture of reality"!
4\ A ZAKA commander, Yossi Landau, claimed he saw 20 mutilated, executed & burned bodies of children piled on top of each other In Be'eri. He later claimed it was in Kfar Aza.
Haaretz says only 3 kids were killed in all of Kfar Aza & 9 in all of Be'eri & not all together!
5\ ZAKA commander, Yossi Landau, also claimed he saw a pregnant woman in House 426 in Be'eri with her stomach cut open & her fetus still attached to it but stabbed.
Haaretz says that whole neighbourhood is inhibited by pensioners & no one recalled any pregnant women there!
6\ Israelis circulated a fake video to claim it showed a pregnant woman being disembowelled by Hamas & her fetus killed. But Haaretz cites FakeReporter's conclusion that the video is from another country.
7\ Eli Beer, head of Ihud Hatzalah, repeated the "pregnant woman" canard & said "[Hamas] put a baby in an oven & turned on the oven".
Dailymail fell for it.
Haaretz now says this is false! "The police have no evidence of a body that answers these signs"!
8\ Sarah Netanyahu sent a letter to Jill Biden about a pregnant hostage that gave birth in Gaza.
Haaretz says this is false. The hostage in question, Natwari Mulkan, was released last week & was definitely not pregnant!
posted by cendawanita at 7:53 AM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
🚨Important! Haaretz definitively debunks iconic horror stories from Oct 7:
40 beheaded babies
Baby burned in oven
A pregnant woman's stomach opened & her fetus removed
Children bound together & burned
Pregnant hostage giving birth
Haaretz says only 1 baby was killed on Oct 7🧵
2\ The report is in Hebrew for now (English version will follow soon). It maintains that other atrocities were committed on Oct 7, but thoroughly debunks the stories of beheaded babies, a disemboweled pregnant woman, children burned together, baby in oven!
3\ Here [video of call from Netanyahu's office] Netanyahu told Biden "They took dozens of children, tied them up, burned them and executed them". Biden fell for it instantly.
Haaretz now says this claim "does not exactly correspond to the picture of reality"!
4\ A ZAKA commander, Yossi Landau, claimed he saw 20 mutilated, executed & burned bodies of children piled on top of each other In Be'eri. He later claimed it was in Kfar Aza.
Haaretz says only 3 kids were killed in all of Kfar Aza & 9 in all of Be'eri & not all together!
5\ ZAKA commander, Yossi Landau, also claimed he saw a pregnant woman in House 426 in Be'eri with her stomach cut open & her fetus still attached to it but stabbed.
Haaretz says that whole neighbourhood is inhibited by pensioners & no one recalled any pregnant women there!
6\ Israelis circulated a fake video to claim it showed a pregnant woman being disembowelled by Hamas & her fetus killed. But Haaretz cites FakeReporter's conclusion that the video is from another country.
7\ Eli Beer, head of Ihud Hatzalah, repeated the "pregnant woman" canard & said "[Hamas] put a baby in an oven & turned on the oven".
Dailymail fell for it.
Haaretz now says this is false! "The police have no evidence of a body that answers these signs"!
8\ Sarah Netanyahu sent a letter to Jill Biden about a pregnant hostage that gave birth in Gaza.
Haaretz says this is false. The hostage in question, Natwari Mulkan, was released last week & was definitely not pregnant!
posted by cendawanita at 7:53 AM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
xdvesper
you post about stonethrowing......in the context of what is a threat to israel.
you speak of the Dahiya doctrine, and existential threats from neighboring arab states... but Israel has invaded the gaza strip after a terrorist attack that murdered 1,100 israeli residents....
this invasion has directly killed 15,000 gazan residents and rising (50% of whom are under 18) - and once the butcher's toll is done, whatever the toll is by bomb and artillery, likely a minimum of 3 x that number indirectly will be dead by disease, famine and infrastructure destruction. in gaza, there is nowhere to go for the civilian population - almost 2 million people!. they are hemmed in from 4 sides in a space about 15 miles long and 6 miles wide. they cannot flee to another country. they do not have a standing army that poses any threat to the IDF at scale. they pose no existential threat to israel. and the residents of the strip are being SLAUGHTERED.
you are relentlessly posting context-free, disingenuous analyses that serve to justify war crimes.
applying the dahiya doctrine - kill 10x, 20x more of their people than ours, to anything other than an actual existential battle is the path to genocide.
posted by lalochezia at 8:30 AM on December 3, 2023 [19 favorites]
you post about stonethrowing......in the context of what is a threat to israel.
you speak of the Dahiya doctrine, and existential threats from neighboring arab states... but Israel has invaded the gaza strip after a terrorist attack that murdered 1,100 israeli residents....
this invasion has directly killed 15,000 gazan residents and rising (50% of whom are under 18) - and once the butcher's toll is done, whatever the toll is by bomb and artillery, likely a minimum of 3 x that number indirectly will be dead by disease, famine and infrastructure destruction. in gaza, there is nowhere to go for the civilian population - almost 2 million people!. they are hemmed in from 4 sides in a space about 15 miles long and 6 miles wide. they cannot flee to another country. they do not have a standing army that poses any threat to the IDF at scale. they pose no existential threat to israel. and the residents of the strip are being SLAUGHTERED.
you are relentlessly posting context-free, disingenuous analyses that serve to justify war crimes.
applying the dahiya doctrine - kill 10x, 20x more of their people than ours, to anything other than an actual existential battle is the path to genocide.
posted by lalochezia at 8:30 AM on December 3, 2023 [19 favorites]
Dimi Reider's thread on that Haaretz piece, I'm just posting their takeaway:
What's my own takeaway?
A. I think most of these stories originated in good faith and/or shock. First responders on the scene were never forensic investigators - in fact, the sheer scale of the event, unprecedented in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, precluded forensic...
investigation of the arenas from taking place. Soldiers and paramedics arrived either under gunfire, or hours and days after the event, finding bodies maimed, disfigured or simply decomposed. Zaka is a religious organisation, not a medical one, dedicated to gathering every...
scrap of flesh to bring to proper burial; their volunteers see absolute horrors but have very little scientific grounding for reconstructing the horrific events themselves - indeed this is absolutely not part of their job description. Plus, we are all hardwired to cast overwhelming new events onto familiar patterns. People saw decimated Jewish communities and the nearest precedent they could reach was stories we all heard from the Holocaust - not gas chambers, of course, but certainly early-stage massacres of Jewish communities in Poland, Ukraine etc. (IMO, in some important ways it simply doesn't matter that it was a huge occupying army in one case and a minority militia in another; the experience of the massacred communities was much the same. In other ways it does matter, but this is for another 🧵).
So they categorised the charred, bloody horror they were seeing according to what they knew.
B. That said, the decision to put these heavily traumatised ppl in front of cameras, and/or to repeat their first impression stories uncritically...
was made by ppl who really should have known better - including Hatzola and Zaka leaders. The same applies to i24.
C. I'd say the PMO should also have known better, but they're to a large extent a personal propaganda outlet for Netanyahu, so maybe that's too much to expect.
D. The forensic pathology is still ongoing. A lot of the remains are in a very dire state, including, I'm afraid, families who were fused together in the fires started by Hamas paramilitaries to smoke them out of their bombshelters, etc. It's possible we may yet find...
something that bears closer resemblance to these initial horror stories. But for now, Liza and Nir have successfully shown, to my mind, that several SPECIFIC incidents within the overall massacre so many have circulated in the first days and week did not take place as alleged.
posted by cendawanita at 8:41 AM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
What's my own takeaway?
A. I think most of these stories originated in good faith and/or shock. First responders on the scene were never forensic investigators - in fact, the sheer scale of the event, unprecedented in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, precluded forensic...
investigation of the arenas from taking place. Soldiers and paramedics arrived either under gunfire, or hours and days after the event, finding bodies maimed, disfigured or simply decomposed. Zaka is a religious organisation, not a medical one, dedicated to gathering every...
scrap of flesh to bring to proper burial; their volunteers see absolute horrors but have very little scientific grounding for reconstructing the horrific events themselves - indeed this is absolutely not part of their job description. Plus, we are all hardwired to cast overwhelming new events onto familiar patterns. People saw decimated Jewish communities and the nearest precedent they could reach was stories we all heard from the Holocaust - not gas chambers, of course, but certainly early-stage massacres of Jewish communities in Poland, Ukraine etc. (IMO, in some important ways it simply doesn't matter that it was a huge occupying army in one case and a minority militia in another; the experience of the massacred communities was much the same. In other ways it does matter, but this is for another 🧵).
So they categorised the charred, bloody horror they were seeing according to what they knew.
B. That said, the decision to put these heavily traumatised ppl in front of cameras, and/or to repeat their first impression stories uncritically...
was made by ppl who really should have known better - including Hatzola and Zaka leaders. The same applies to i24.
C. I'd say the PMO should also have known better, but they're to a large extent a personal propaganda outlet for Netanyahu, so maybe that's too much to expect.
D. The forensic pathology is still ongoing. A lot of the remains are in a very dire state, including, I'm afraid, families who were fused together in the fires started by Hamas paramilitaries to smoke them out of their bombshelters, etc. It's possible we may yet find...
something that bears closer resemblance to these initial horror stories. But for now, Liza and Nir have successfully shown, to my mind, that several SPECIFIC incidents within the overall massacre so many have circulated in the first days and week did not take place as alleged.
posted by cendawanita at 8:41 AM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
We talk(ed) a lot about antisemitism and its presence in pro-Palestine discourse and here on metafilter a lot, but there’s also a lot of objectively pro-genocide discourse here too. And it’s shameful and gross.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:43 AM on December 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:43 AM on December 3, 2023 [17 favorites]
WashPo: A Gaza hospital evacuated, four fragile lives and a grim discovery (archive) -
But ambulances couldn’t safely reach al-Nasr to transport the wounded, and doctors refused to leave the facility without their patients.
The five premature babies were particularly vulnerable. They needed oxygen, and medication administered at regular intervals. There were no portable respirators or incubators to transport them. Without life support, the nurse feared, they wouldn’t survive an evacuation.
Then the IDF delivered an ultimatum, al-Nasr director Bakr Qaoud told The Washington Post: Get out or be bombarded. An Israeli official, meanwhile, provided an assurance that ambulances would be arranged to retrieve the patients.
The nurse, a Palestinian man who works with Paris-based Doctors Without Borders, saw no choice. He assessed his charges and picked up the strongest one — the baby he thought likeliest to bear a temporary cut to his oxygen supply. He left the other four on their breathing machines, reluctantly, and with his wife, their children and the one baby, headed south.
“I felt like I was leaving my own children behind,” said the nurse, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect his privacy. “If we had the ability to take them, we would have, [but] if we took them off the oxygen they would have died.”
Two weeks later, the pause in hostilities allowed a Gazan journalist to venture into the hospital. In the neonatal intensive care unit, Mohammed Balousha made the awful discovery.
The decomposing bodies of the four babies. Eaten by worms. Blackened by mold. Mauled, Balousha said, by stray dogs.
“A terrible and horrific scene,” he told The Post. He took video.
The grim discovery was a reminder of the harrowing civilian toll of Israel’s war to eradicate Hamas, a campaign that has spared neither hospitals nor children. Thousands have been killed.
posted by cendawanita at 8:51 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
But ambulances couldn’t safely reach al-Nasr to transport the wounded, and doctors refused to leave the facility without their patients.
The five premature babies were particularly vulnerable. They needed oxygen, and medication administered at regular intervals. There were no portable respirators or incubators to transport them. Without life support, the nurse feared, they wouldn’t survive an evacuation.
Then the IDF delivered an ultimatum, al-Nasr director Bakr Qaoud told The Washington Post: Get out or be bombarded. An Israeli official, meanwhile, provided an assurance that ambulances would be arranged to retrieve the patients.
The nurse, a Palestinian man who works with Paris-based Doctors Without Borders, saw no choice. He assessed his charges and picked up the strongest one — the baby he thought likeliest to bear a temporary cut to his oxygen supply. He left the other four on their breathing machines, reluctantly, and with his wife, their children and the one baby, headed south.
“I felt like I was leaving my own children behind,” said the nurse, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect his privacy. “If we had the ability to take them, we would have, [but] if we took them off the oxygen they would have died.”
Two weeks later, the pause in hostilities allowed a Gazan journalist to venture into the hospital. In the neonatal intensive care unit, Mohammed Balousha made the awful discovery.
The decomposing bodies of the four babies. Eaten by worms. Blackened by mold. Mauled, Balousha said, by stray dogs.
“A terrible and horrific scene,” he told The Post. He took video.
The grim discovery was a reminder of the harrowing civilian toll of Israel’s war to eradicate Hamas, a campaign that has spared neither hospitals nor children. Thousands have been killed.
posted by cendawanita at 8:51 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mohamed Dhia Hammami:
"It’s becoming increasingly clear that Americans approve of « Israel’s military action in Gaza » is driven by racial factors. Two out of three person of color in the US are opposing it, and two out of three white Americans are supporting it. College education doesn’t have an effect."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:23 AM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
"It’s becoming increasingly clear that Americans approve of « Israel’s military action in Gaza » is driven by racial factors. Two out of three person of color in the US are opposing it, and two out of three white Americans are supporting it. College education doesn’t have an effect."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:23 AM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Careful with "driven by". Doesn't that chart show that race is a weaker predictor than party affiliation, and about equal with age-group?
posted by Klipspringer at 9:34 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Klipspringer at 9:34 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Doesn’t matter in the slightest, think about how many republican POC there are in the US.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:49 AM on December 3, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:49 AM on December 3, 2023
Not to mention the huge correlation-causation issue, the failure to consider important confounding variables (socioeconomic class?), consider intersections of categories (do white college graduates differ from white non-graduates on this issue, or not?), and so on. The fact that opinions correlate to racial identity is interesting, if not entirely surprising, but the "driven by" part is doing a lot of bad statistical work.
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:49 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:49 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
MisantropicPainforest (or anyone else), do you have good numbers on the percentage of American POC who identify as Republican right now? Going off the 73/25 split from the 2020 presidential election, we might expect (0.25*0.7+0.73*0.3=) 39.4% of the POC respondents to support Israel if party affiliation were the sole driver of support. That's significantly higher than the 30% who are actually on record supporting Israel, though the 64% opposed is somewhat closer to the expected 58.6%.
Which, again, I think other confounding variables (and probably better POC-identifying-as-Republican data) should be considered, but it certainly suggests that political affiliation is not sufficient to explain racial trends.
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:10 AM on December 3, 2023
Which, again, I think other confounding variables (and probably better POC-identifying-as-Republican data) should be considered, but it certainly suggests that political affiliation is not sufficient to explain racial trends.
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:10 AM on December 3, 2023
Sorry to get technical about it but “ Not to mention the huge correlation-causation issue, the failure to consider important confounding variables (socioeconomic class?)” makes no sense because you can’t manipulate any of these variables. You can’t randomize socioeconomic class/race/gender. The fact of the matter is that white people in the US are much more supportive of Israel/less supportive of Palestine than nonwhite people.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:45 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:45 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The fact of the matter is that white people in the US are much more supportive of Israel/less supportive of Palestine than nonwhite people.
Sure, but there's a difference between saying that and saying that American support for Israel is "driven by racial factors." If support were driven by socioeconomic factors, for example, we would see that played out in the racial-demographics realm as well. You might not be able to perform randomized tests, but there are still ways of teasing out what sorts of affiliations matter to people when determining their policy positions, rather than jumping from correlation to causation.
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:55 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sure, but there's a difference between saying that and saying that American support for Israel is "driven by racial factors." If support were driven by socioeconomic factors, for example, we would see that played out in the racial-demographics realm as well. You might not be able to perform randomized tests, but there are still ways of teasing out what sorts of affiliations matter to people when determining their policy positions, rather than jumping from correlation to causation.
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:55 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Before I go to sleep, just a note to anyone interested in doing a USpol FPP: #abandonbiden seems to be a thing bubbling. Ok just putting a pin on that here, due to the connection.
posted by cendawanita at 10:57 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:57 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Like, one of the primary takeaways from intersectionalism is that race can't be divorced from other identities in forming people's lived experiences—but at the same time, it's complicated to ascribe things to racial factors without taking other intersecting identities into account. "Driven by" I think asserts a primacy that isn't made clear by the data.
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:59 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:59 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
What’s the actual claim here? That if you take a random sample of educated black male democrats aged 40 and a random sample of educated white male democrat aged 40 they’re going to have an equal proportion of support for Israel?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:08 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:08 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
That if you take a random sample of educated black male democrats aged 40 and a random sample of educated white male democrat aged 40 they’re going to have an equal proportion of support for Israel?
This specific example, maybe not; but broadly speaking, yeah, that two people in otherwise similar life circumstances might express similar positions on Israel regardless of race. That broadly speaking, we don't know to what extent race is a significant or primary driver of support for Israel or Palestine based on the available data.
(Side note, the data reflects nothing about "proportion of support"—it's a yes-or-no binary and doesn't include things like willingness to participate in protests, degree to which it will effect voting patterns, and so on. It's also possible that POC are more willing to substantively oppose Israel's military activity than white people! But again, the data just doesn't include that sort of information.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:19 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
This specific example, maybe not; but broadly speaking, yeah, that two people in otherwise similar life circumstances might express similar positions on Israel regardless of race. That broadly speaking, we don't know to what extent race is a significant or primary driver of support for Israel or Palestine based on the available data.
(Side note, the data reflects nothing about "proportion of support"—it's a yes-or-no binary and doesn't include things like willingness to participate in protests, degree to which it will effect voting patterns, and so on. It's also possible that POC are more willing to substantively oppose Israel's military activity than white people! But again, the data just doesn't include that sort of information.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:19 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah we don’t know but all available evidence (polling, spending any time in these spaces) points in the same direction. Proportion of support refers to the sample, not the individual observation.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:29 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:29 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
#abandonbiden seems to be a thing bubbling.
Group of swing state Muslims vows to ditch Biden over his war stance (AP)
Muslim Americans face 'Abandon Biden' dilemma-then who? (Reuters)
"We don't have two options. We have many options," Jaylani Hussein, director of Minnesota's Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) chapter, said at a press conference in Dearborn, Michigan, when asked about Biden alternatives.
"We're not supporting (former President Donald) Trump," he said, adding that the Muslim community would decide how to interview other candidates.
Hussein has said he was expressing his personal views, not those of CAIR.
posted by box at 11:57 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Group of swing state Muslims vows to ditch Biden over his war stance (AP)
Muslim Americans face 'Abandon Biden' dilemma-then who? (Reuters)
"We don't have two options. We have many options," Jaylani Hussein, director of Minnesota's Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) chapter, said at a press conference in Dearborn, Michigan, when asked about Biden alternatives.
"We're not supporting (former President Donald) Trump," he said, adding that the Muslim community would decide how to interview other candidates.
Hussein has said he was expressing his personal views, not those of CAIR.
posted by box at 11:57 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israel’s assault forced a nurse to leave babies behind. They were found decomposing. (CW for highly distressing shit)
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a thread about Israel's continued genocidal attack on Palestinians. If you have nothing to add please can you take your discussions about American internal politics and trends somewhere else.
This evening Israel says its ground forces are operating across ‘all of Gaza’.
An estimated 1.8 million people are internally displaced.
700 hundred Palestinians have been killed in Gaza in the last 24 hrs. and
More than 15,500 people have been killed in Gaza since 7 oct.
Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid since World War II. Since the Nakba — which also involved U.S. support — the U.S. has provided Israel $260 billion in economic and military funding. In 2022, the U.S. provided Israel with $3.2 billion in aid, and Congress and President Joe Biden have backed sending an additional $14.3 billion to Israel this year on top of the over $3 billion officials have already committed for 2023.
posted by adamvasco at 4:51 PM on December 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
This evening Israel says its ground forces are operating across ‘all of Gaza’.
An estimated 1.8 million people are internally displaced.
700 hundred Palestinians have been killed in Gaza in the last 24 hrs. and
More than 15,500 people have been killed in Gaza since 7 oct.
Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid since World War II. Since the Nakba — which also involved U.S. support — the U.S. has provided Israel $260 billion in economic and military funding. In 2022, the U.S. provided Israel with $3.2 billion in aid, and Congress and President Joe Biden have backed sending an additional $14.3 billion to Israel this year on top of the over $3 billion officials have already committed for 2023.
posted by adamvasco at 4:51 PM on December 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
Since the Nakba — which also involved U.S. support
Care to elaborate?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:48 PM on December 3, 2023
Care to elaborate?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:48 PM on December 3, 2023
Five things the United States knew about the Nakba as it unfolded.
"U.S. Minister James Keeley offered one of several of his acerbic commentaries on the devastating impact of Israel’s creation for the Palestinian people. The legation “heartily shares McDonalds [sic] estimate of [the] magnitude of [the] Arab refugee tragedy and [the] inadequacy of present and prospective relief and resettlement resources … which unless speedily remidied [sic] will inevitably result in shocking losses among refugees.”
"U.S. concern for the humanitarian dimensions of the Palestine refugee crisis spurred the Truman administration to support the establishment in November 1948 of a short-term, emergency program, U.N. Relief for Palestine Refugees.19 This agency served as a precursor to the more long-standing U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), which continues to provide social services to Palestinian refugees today."
Shocking.
posted by clavdivs at 6:45 PM on December 3, 2023
"U.S. Minister James Keeley offered one of several of his acerbic commentaries on the devastating impact of Israel’s creation for the Palestinian people. The legation “heartily shares McDonalds [sic] estimate of [the] magnitude of [the] Arab refugee tragedy and [the] inadequacy of present and prospective relief and resettlement resources … which unless speedily remidied [sic] will inevitably result in shocking losses among refugees.”
"U.S. concern for the humanitarian dimensions of the Palestine refugee crisis spurred the Truman administration to support the establishment in November 1948 of a short-term, emergency program, U.N. Relief for Palestine Refugees.19 This agency served as a precursor to the more long-standing U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), which continues to provide social services to Palestinian refugees today."
Shocking.
posted by clavdivs at 6:45 PM on December 3, 2023
This hardly amounts to US support for the nakba in any meaningful way. I think it’s important to remember how, despite the international dimensions, localized this conflict was, and that US support for Israel evolved from sending some cash in the early 1950s to nearly unconditional support by the mid 1960s. This wasn’t something that just solidified in May of 1948. And to attribute responsibility for the nakba to the US gets the history wrong and excuses the perpetrators of the ethnic cleansing. Not everything in the world is the fault of the US.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:37 PM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:37 PM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
From Arnaud Bertrand: There's no overstating how extraordinary such a statement by Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin is, warning Israel it's heading towards "strategic defeat": twitter.com/upholdreality/…
"In this kind of a fight the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat."
Essentially saying what is obvious common sense: you create more Hamas than you destroy by killing civilians. And as such what Israel has been doing so far is nothing but dig the hole it's in deeper and deeper...
After, obviously, it's doing all this with Pentagon weapons and support in a myriad of ways, so Austin's words are pretty disingenuous... BUT they see Israel as their "unsinkable aircraft carrier" in the region so they must feel that were they to stop this active support it'd "sink" pretty quickly, which they aren't ready to do.
Which actually goes to illustrate just how deep the hole Israel - and America - have put themselves in. The "unsinkable aircraft carrier" is taking water and needs constant US support to avoid sinking but the US is now telling them publicly - in very frank terms - that their actions are actually accelerating the sinking...
--
transcript of the bit in the video: "In this kind of a fight, the centre of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory witth a strategic defeat. So I have repeatedly made clear to the Israel's leaders, that protecting the Palestinian civilians in Gaza is both a moral responsibility and a strategic imperative."
972: Israeli academia joins the crackdown on dissent
MoTaz: (4 hours ago) Day 59
Houses getting bombed and more Palestinians are getting killed minute by minute
More than 7000 are still missing and yesterday alone more than 1000 Palestinians got killed in the same day.
posted by cendawanita at 7:40 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
"In this kind of a fight the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat."
Essentially saying what is obvious common sense: you create more Hamas than you destroy by killing civilians. And as such what Israel has been doing so far is nothing but dig the hole it's in deeper and deeper...
After, obviously, it's doing all this with Pentagon weapons and support in a myriad of ways, so Austin's words are pretty disingenuous... BUT they see Israel as their "unsinkable aircraft carrier" in the region so they must feel that were they to stop this active support it'd "sink" pretty quickly, which they aren't ready to do.
Which actually goes to illustrate just how deep the hole Israel - and America - have put themselves in. The "unsinkable aircraft carrier" is taking water and needs constant US support to avoid sinking but the US is now telling them publicly - in very frank terms - that their actions are actually accelerating the sinking...
--
transcript of the bit in the video: "In this kind of a fight, the centre of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory witth a strategic defeat. So I have repeatedly made clear to the Israel's leaders, that protecting the Palestinian civilians in Gaza is both a moral responsibility and a strategic imperative."
972: Israeli academia joins the crackdown on dissent
MoTaz: (4 hours ago) Day 59
Houses getting bombed and more Palestinians are getting killed minute by minute
More than 7000 are still missing and yesterday alone more than 1000 Palestinians got killed in the same day.
posted by cendawanita at 7:40 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Overlooked sharing this, Sky News interview with the Thai hostage negotiator. The bit I've seen shared emphasized the claim that the interviewer was trying to get something negative about Hamas, but it's also likely just being journalistic no? However the negotiator (who is Thai Muslim) did maintain they came into it with no strings attached, and the hostages had been well-taken care of, and Hamas fulfilled their assurances. Interesting points about locations where hostages are kept, the stance that they understood what happened was a consequence of war and occupation (and his sympathy about it). I do understand this is being portrayed in a way that's different within Israeli media and their hostages, but I have no further comments on that, and what I've seen thru the algo is very partisan.
posted by cendawanita at 9:05 PM on December 3, 2023
posted by cendawanita at 9:05 PM on December 3, 2023
AP: Israel expands Gaza ground offensive, vows to hit the south with 'no less strength' than the north
posted by cendawanita at 10:01 PM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:01 PM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Walla News is an online portal owned by Jerusalem Post, so ymmv, (the debunked baby doll story was theirs though they had apologized and taken it down) and I'm depending on Google Translate too: קצינים בכירים תוהים: "לאן נעלמו הקלטות מ-7 באוקטובר, שעמדו לשמש לתחקיר ליום שאחרי?" (Senior officers wonder: "Where did the tapes from October 7th, which were going to be used for the investigation the day after, go?")
Based on the translation there's some change in confidentiality status of the recordings along the security perimeter that is impacting the investigators' work.
"We sat down with one of the generals and were going to show him (last week AB) a video about one of the events, and we found out that someone had deleted the videos," said a senior reserve officer from one of the divisions, adding, "It was very embarrassing. Then suspicion arose as to why to do that. And at the end the excuses started that it was decided to give special privileges to those who request.
Do officers in our ranks need privileges? It looks like a war of generals and officials. A feeling that everyone is now trying to take care of themselves for the day after."
posted by cendawanita at 12:54 AM on December 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Based on the translation there's some change in confidentiality status of the recordings along the security perimeter that is impacting the investigators' work.
"We sat down with one of the generals and were going to show him (last week AB) a video about one of the events, and we found out that someone had deleted the videos," said a senior reserve officer from one of the divisions, adding, "It was very embarrassing. Then suspicion arose as to why to do that. And at the end the excuses started that it was decided to give special privileges to those who request.
Do officers in our ranks need privileges? It looks like a war of generals and officials. A feeling that everyone is now trying to take care of themselves for the day after."
posted by cendawanita at 12:54 AM on December 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel flying drones into the West Bank which broadcast a recorded message to the Palestinians:
“Watch out for your children. Anyone thinking about doing anything, we will reach you, and kill you if necessary.”
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:46 AM on December 4, 2023
“Watch out for your children. Anyone thinking about doing anything, we will reach you, and kill you if necessary.”
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:46 AM on December 4, 2023
Dan Cohen: DEBUNKED: Israel Claims That Hamas Marked Children By Burning Their Legs With Motorcycle Exhaust
The claim was published by outlets across the entire spectrum of mainstream Israeli media, from left-liberal to religious Zionist, including Ha'aretz, Jerusalem Post (archived), Walla News (archived), Yedioth Ahronoth, Hamal (archived), Maariv (archived) Channel 1 (archived) and the Haredi site JDN News (archived). The Times of Israel published two articles on the uncle’s phony claim – one on November 30 (archived) and one on December 1 (archived). The New York Post also picked up the story (archived).
The religious Zionist website Behadrei Haredim published an article (archived) titled “The cruelty of Hamas: burned marks on the legs of the brothers” that compared the alleged marking of children with motorcycle exhaust to Nazi tattooing of Jewish concentration camp inmates.
"This act of marking a limb on the body reminds us all of the numbers that the Nazis burned on the arms of the Jewish prisoners. Not only that, the uncle said that the brothers Or and Yagil were drugged and moved from place to place several times. He described barbarism that did not stop even when the children were already across the border, in the hands of Hamas, a sadism that takes us back to the darkest times in human history."
Some of these outlets, including Yedioth Ahronoth and Walla News, have since deleted their articles, however, they appear in Google search, which uses cached results.
This news is actually a day old so better to read it together with the US officials' statements from around the same time: Netanyahu: 'The Palestinian Authority is an irredeemable organization educating children to hatred of Israel and inciting them to murder Jews. It cannot be the solution for Gaza post-Hamas
Daanish Faruqi (Al-Jazeera): Israel is using the same tactics in Gaza that al-Assad employed in Syria - The Israeli campaign of dehumanisation to justify the starvation and bombing of civilians in Gaza bears an uncanny similarity to the one used in Syria.
Al-Jazeera: Yemen’s Houthis target Israeli-linked ships in Red Sea. Here’s what to know - The Houthis seem to have made a strategic shift towards maritime operations to ramp up pressure on the US and Israel.
Related: (Economist) Israel’s offensive against Hamas enters its crucial stage - A race against the clock in southern Gaza (archive)
In private security officials admit that their country’s armed forces are rushing to operate before its “window of legitimacy” closes. They know that they cannot rely indefinitely on international support for Israel’s military campaign in Gaza, prompted by Hamas’s massacre of around 1,200 Israelis and abduction of about 250 more on October 7th. This support, led by America, is rapidly eroding in the face of the bloody toll in civilian lives in Gaza. On a visit to Israel on November 30th, Antony Blinken, the American secretary of state, made it clear to the members of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s war cabinet that they would not have the “months” they say they need to finish the job.
[...] The IDF is ever more aware that it is operating under a combination of irreconcilable expectations: of Israel’s politicians and its public, who want it to destroy Hamas; of the hostages’ families, who want their loved ones home; and of its international allies who want fewer Palestinian casualties and an eventual end to this war. If America pushes for a quicker end to the fighting the pressure will grow even further. Meanwhile Hizbullah is once again launching missiles and drones towards northern Israel at a similar rate to before the truce. Israel’s embattled prime minister, whose popularity is plummeting and whose job is being eyed by his rivals in the war cabinet, has sought desperately to avoid making hard choices between Israel’s irreconcilable objectives. But as the tanks rumble into southern Gaza, crunch time looms.
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 AM on December 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
The claim was published by outlets across the entire spectrum of mainstream Israeli media, from left-liberal to religious Zionist, including Ha'aretz, Jerusalem Post (archived), Walla News (archived), Yedioth Ahronoth, Hamal (archived), Maariv (archived) Channel 1 (archived) and the Haredi site JDN News (archived). The Times of Israel published two articles on the uncle’s phony claim – one on November 30 (archived) and one on December 1 (archived). The New York Post also picked up the story (archived).
The religious Zionist website Behadrei Haredim published an article (archived) titled “The cruelty of Hamas: burned marks on the legs of the brothers” that compared the alleged marking of children with motorcycle exhaust to Nazi tattooing of Jewish concentration camp inmates.
"This act of marking a limb on the body reminds us all of the numbers that the Nazis burned on the arms of the Jewish prisoners. Not only that, the uncle said that the brothers Or and Yagil were drugged and moved from place to place several times. He described barbarism that did not stop even when the children were already across the border, in the hands of Hamas, a sadism that takes us back to the darkest times in human history."
Some of these outlets, including Yedioth Ahronoth and Walla News, have since deleted their articles, however, they appear in Google search, which uses cached results.
This news is actually a day old so better to read it together with the US officials' statements from around the same time: Netanyahu: 'The Palestinian Authority is an irredeemable organization educating children to hatred of Israel and inciting them to murder Jews. It cannot be the solution for Gaza post-Hamas
Daanish Faruqi (Al-Jazeera): Israel is using the same tactics in Gaza that al-Assad employed in Syria - The Israeli campaign of dehumanisation to justify the starvation and bombing of civilians in Gaza bears an uncanny similarity to the one used in Syria.
Al-Jazeera: Yemen’s Houthis target Israeli-linked ships in Red Sea. Here’s what to know - The Houthis seem to have made a strategic shift towards maritime operations to ramp up pressure on the US and Israel.
Related: (Economist) Israel’s offensive against Hamas enters its crucial stage - A race against the clock in southern Gaza (archive)
In private security officials admit that their country’s armed forces are rushing to operate before its “window of legitimacy” closes. They know that they cannot rely indefinitely on international support for Israel’s military campaign in Gaza, prompted by Hamas’s massacre of around 1,200 Israelis and abduction of about 250 more on October 7th. This support, led by America, is rapidly eroding in the face of the bloody toll in civilian lives in Gaza. On a visit to Israel on November 30th, Antony Blinken, the American secretary of state, made it clear to the members of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s war cabinet that they would not have the “months” they say they need to finish the job.
[...] The IDF is ever more aware that it is operating under a combination of irreconcilable expectations: of Israel’s politicians and its public, who want it to destroy Hamas; of the hostages’ families, who want their loved ones home; and of its international allies who want fewer Palestinian casualties and an eventual end to this war. If America pushes for a quicker end to the fighting the pressure will grow even further. Meanwhile Hizbullah is once again launching missiles and drones towards northern Israel at a similar rate to before the truce. Israel’s embattled prime minister, whose popularity is plummeting and whose job is being eyed by his rivals in the war cabinet, has sought desperately to avoid making hard choices between Israel’s irreconcilable objectives. But as the tanks rumble into southern Gaza, crunch time looms.
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 AM on December 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Israel orders more Gazans to flee, bombs areas where it sends them
posted by Artw at 7:52 AM on December 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:52 AM on December 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Watch out for your children. Anyone thinking about doing anything, we will reach you, and kill you if necessary.”
Definitely not terrorism /s
posted by Mitheral at 10:04 AM on December 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Definitely not terrorism /s
posted by Mitheral at 10:04 AM on December 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Starting to look like ethnic cleansing with bipartisan support in Congress is going to be the endgame (emphasis is mine):
But this rhetorical emphasis on civilian life amounts to little in practice, because on a policy level the Biden administration refuses to put any conditions on aid to Israel. There is absolutely no incentive for Netanyahu’s government to heed the pleadings of Austin, Blinken, or even Vice President Kamala Harris, who has spoken in similar terms. On Sunday, Harris said, “Too many innocent Palestinians have been killed. As Israel pursues its military objectives in Gaza, we believe Israel must do more to protect innocent civilians.”posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:20 AM on December 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
The true nature of the Biden approach to Israel was caught by a Wall Street Journal headline reading, “After sending massive bombs, artillery shells, U.S. also urges Israel to limit civilian casualties.” This is Biden’s bear-hug strategy in its essence: “Send bigger bombs, leavened with humanitarian platitudes.”
The bear-hug strategy has failed in the most direct way possible: Far from being restrained, Israel is fighting one of the most ferociously murderous wars in the 21st century. It’s a war that, as Lloyd Austin notes, makes little strategic sense. Far from defeating Hamas, it will radicalize a new generation of Palestinians. Realizing this reality, Netanyahu is now shopping around a proposal to “thin out” Gaza’s population and expel the surviving residents into neighboring countries—a proposal that he is pitching to the leaders of both parties in Congress.
This policy, amounting to a second Nakba, would not only be a moral atrocity; it would destroy the reputation of Israel and the United States around the world for decades to come. The consequences of this policy, in terms of future terrorism and also loss of international credibility and fraying of alliances, would be incalculable.
Starting to look like ethnic cleansing with bipartisan support in Congress is going to be the endgame
It's hard not to conclude that reducing the Palestinian claims to irrelevance has been Israel's plan for many years. There's a cold, realpolitik, logic to it: the one big secular state solution is an existential risk to Israel as the safe, secure Jewish homeland, and every try for negotiating a separate Palestinian state has fallen apart... and agreement seems less possible now, even before Oct 7. Israel seems intent on the long game of wearing Palestinians down, nudging them out with restrictions, walls, settlement-building and harassment... and now, Oct 7 is justification for emptying Gaza.
Atrocity? I think Israel (and the US) will ultimately get away with it. Very few important US allies will seriously condemn them for it. Remember that even their Arab neighbours have said they won't put any 'skin' into the game by taking refugees or helping police a new Palestinian state.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:12 AM on December 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's hard not to conclude that reducing the Palestinian claims to irrelevance has been Israel's plan for many years. There's a cold, realpolitik, logic to it: the one big secular state solution is an existential risk to Israel as the safe, secure Jewish homeland, and every try for negotiating a separate Palestinian state has fallen apart... and agreement seems less possible now, even before Oct 7. Israel seems intent on the long game of wearing Palestinians down, nudging them out with restrictions, walls, settlement-building and harassment... and now, Oct 7 is justification for emptying Gaza.
Atrocity? I think Israel (and the US) will ultimately get away with it. Very few important US allies will seriously condemn them for it. Remember that even their Arab neighbours have said they won't put any 'skin' into the game by taking refugees or helping police a new Palestinian state.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:12 AM on December 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
House to vote on antisemitism resolution declaring anti-Zionism is antisemitic
This is of course itself a codification of antisemitic tropes into law.
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on December 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
This is of course itself a codification of antisemitic tropes into law.
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on December 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
Israel not anticipating 10/7 (youtube, 30 minutes)
Israel knew a lot about Hamas' plans to attack. Oddly enough, it was a female analyst who tried to bring attention to the plans, and a male superior who decided that the Gazans didn't have resources or the will to carry out the plans. Only a coincidence, I'm sure.
There's discussion of what Israel might have done if they'd taken the warning seriously. There was already a strong fence, built high and deep, to prevent Palestinian attacks. (Begins to sound like the Maginot Line.) The two possibilities discussed were setting up a minefield along the border, or invade Gaza. There was no support then for invading Gaza, and Israeli didn't attempt either.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:40 AM on December 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israel knew a lot about Hamas' plans to attack. Oddly enough, it was a female analyst who tried to bring attention to the plans, and a male superior who decided that the Gazans didn't have resources or the will to carry out the plans. Only a coincidence, I'm sure.
There's discussion of what Israel might have done if they'd taken the warning seriously. There was already a strong fence, built high and deep, to prevent Palestinian attacks. (Begins to sound like the Maginot Line.) The two possibilities discussed were setting up a minefield along the border, or invade Gaza. There was no support then for invading Gaza, and Israeli didn't attempt either.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:40 AM on December 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is of course itself a codification of antisemitic tropes into law.
Buh-buh-buh Benny and his jets.
posted by clavdivs at 1:15 PM on December 4, 2023
Buh-buh-buh Benny and his jets.
posted by clavdivs at 1:15 PM on December 4, 2023
Nancy Lebovitz, unfortunately the YouTube link you added isn't working for me, but this NY Times article mostly covers it. Salient points from the article:
1. Israel obtained a 40 page document codenamed "Jericho Wall" over a year before the 7th Oct attacks. This is one among many iterations of attack plans obtained by Israeli intelligence dating as far back as 2016.
2. This particular document laid out a plan similar to what eventually occured on Oct 7th - a barrage of rockets and drones to knock out automated guns and cameras on the border, and attackers to stream through the border on paragliders, motorcycles and on foot
3. "Jericho Wall" was circulated widely among military and intelligence leaders
4. It was considered implausible due to Hamas' lack of capability and Yahya Sinwar seemingly not interested in war with Israel at the time.
-- Added context from Reuters: Hamas had refrained from attacks on Israel since 2021 and pursued a mutually beneficial system of expanding work permits with Israel, while it was Islamic Jihad that fired rockets into Israel. Even Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah mocked Hamas for going quiet, and there was strong criticism within Gaza itself against Hamas.
5. Three months before the attack, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200 raised an alarm that they had observed a day-long training exercise near the border that matched "Jericho Wall". She correctly assessed that Hamas had gained the capability to carry out such an attack, but even she didn't think an attack was imminent due to Hamas' current stance of pursuing economic gains over military ones.
6. In a back and forth series of emails with her and other analysts, the Colonel applauded her analysis but concluded that Hamas conducted it as a theoretical exercise and it didn't represent a step up in their ability to actually carry out such an attack.
posted by xdvesper at 3:59 PM on December 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
1. Israel obtained a 40 page document codenamed "Jericho Wall" over a year before the 7th Oct attacks. This is one among many iterations of attack plans obtained by Israeli intelligence dating as far back as 2016.
2. This particular document laid out a plan similar to what eventually occured on Oct 7th - a barrage of rockets and drones to knock out automated guns and cameras on the border, and attackers to stream through the border on paragliders, motorcycles and on foot
3. "Jericho Wall" was circulated widely among military and intelligence leaders
4. It was considered implausible due to Hamas' lack of capability and Yahya Sinwar seemingly not interested in war with Israel at the time.
-- Added context from Reuters: Hamas had refrained from attacks on Israel since 2021 and pursued a mutually beneficial system of expanding work permits with Israel, while it was Islamic Jihad that fired rockets into Israel. Even Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah mocked Hamas for going quiet, and there was strong criticism within Gaza itself against Hamas.
5. Three months before the attack, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200 raised an alarm that they had observed a day-long training exercise near the border that matched "Jericho Wall". She correctly assessed that Hamas had gained the capability to carry out such an attack, but even she didn't think an attack was imminent due to Hamas' current stance of pursuing economic gains over military ones.
6. In a back and forth series of emails with her and other analysts, the Colonel applauded her analysis but concluded that Hamas conducted it as a theoretical exercise and it didn't represent a step up in their ability to actually carry out such an attack.
posted by xdvesper at 3:59 PM on December 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-kWt1jhA7Y&ab_channel=NewYorkTimesPodcasts
Here's my link, it's roughly the same material and also from the NYTimes.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:26 PM on December 4, 2023
Here's my link, it's roughly the same material and also from the NYTimes.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:26 PM on December 4, 2023
Josh Paul interview with Christiane Amanpour: He quit the State Department over US support for Israel. Here's why he did it
- it showed up on my radar due to a section when he spoke about, quoting Mohammad Alsaafin: Josh Paul says that when the charity Defence for Children International told the State Dept of the rape of a 13 year old Palestinian boy by Israeli forces, the State Dept investigated & raised the incident with Israel. Next day the Israeli army shut the charity's office down.
His main point from the interview is that Israel is receiving US arms and aid despite known abuses and there're really no meaningful conditions in place. There's also the reference to this bear hug policy mentioned up thread. Ironically, this makes it an actual validated claim of rape, but in 2022, towards a male child.
Dan Cohen: UPDATE: @IDFSpokesperson confirms to Haaretz that its claim about Hamas hanging dead babies on a clothesline, disseminated by @yaron1blu, is a hoax, as I reported on November 30.
posted by cendawanita at 6:22 PM on December 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
- it showed up on my radar due to a section when he spoke about, quoting Mohammad Alsaafin: Josh Paul says that when the charity Defence for Children International told the State Dept of the rape of a 13 year old Palestinian boy by Israeli forces, the State Dept investigated & raised the incident with Israel. Next day the Israeli army shut the charity's office down.
His main point from the interview is that Israel is receiving US arms and aid despite known abuses and there're really no meaningful conditions in place. There's also the reference to this bear hug policy mentioned up thread. Ironically, this makes it an actual validated claim of rape, but in 2022, towards a male child.
Dan Cohen: UPDATE: @IDFSpokesperson confirms to Haaretz that its claim about Hamas hanging dead babies on a clothesline, disseminated by @yaron1blu, is a hoax, as I reported on November 30.
posted by cendawanita at 6:22 PM on December 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I haven't been sharing any media that involved Israeli public (ie not just active IDF people rummaging around Palestinian homes and capturing their own acts, like defecating around the houses and leaving the waste behind or on prayer rugs) doing "Arab face" memes but here's a tweet thread talking about it.
B.M. - This was my home, with no electricity or gas, was my home, and Ahmad's & Fatma's & Abed's & Salim's"
Remember the Arabfacing video in the QRT? It is a part of a current Israeli TikTok trend - lipsyncing the lyrics to this song while Arabfacing, mocking the suffering of Gazans.
If you're wondering about the blackened teeth thing, it's a Palestinian trope in Israel in part because a lot of women gets sexually assaulted in captivity that often results in them losing their teeth.
Daniel Seidemann threadreader version of his thread:
This is the Jerusalem equivalent of DEFCON 1.
Thread.
1/
The facts: on Thursday evening,the first night of Hannukah, the Temple Mount Movements will conduct a march "approved by the police" from "the blessed Damascus Gate in the direction of the Temple Mount (near the Kotel). Image
2/
If there is any provocation more dangerous, more incendiary and more likely to trigger an eruption of violence in East Jerusalem and/or the West Bank and/or the Lebanese border, I can't think of one.
This is no doubt a cause of concern in Amman, Cairo and beyond.
3/
You will be told: the Police will never let it happen. Ben Gvir's Police? Wanna bet?
The Police are issuing "calming" statements. It will "only" be 200 marchers, and go through Al Wad St., the Muslim Quarter "only" as far as the Austian Hospice.
Satisfaction guaranteed.
4/
This is precisely the route that thousands of ultranationlist religious marauders took last May. They marched through the Muslim Quarter pounding in the locked doors of Palestinan storefronts and homes, screaming "death to the Arabs" and "May their villages burn".
5/
Then as well the Police did their Gunnar Jarring impersonation, devoted to maintain the rights of the marauders. Theu even announced in advance that they were cool with chants of "death to the Arabs".
There were indeed a few arrests - all Palestinan.
6/
For me, this is the worst part: not ONE public figure in Israel condemned the chants of death to the Arabs. Not one.
Not the Prime Minister, who has 5 houses (no less) a couple of kilometers away. Not the Mayor, who lords over the occupation of 400,000 Palestinans.
7/
In a very non-routine move, the United States publicly called upon the leaders of Israel to condemn the chants. No one did.
And I mean no one.
Herzog? Shtum.
Ganz? Shtum.
Lapid? הצחקתם אותי. Shtum.
Thus upcoming March is on these moral and political invertebrates, too.
8/
This is not "elective surgery". This has nothing to do with piety, and everything to do with pyromania.
Anyone inside Israel and in the international community with any sense if responsibility have to communicate unequivocally to the Netanyahu Regime: don't dare. Don't dare.
9/
Is it certain that this march will ignite violence?
No. My bet would be 50-50, at best.
W/ war and & a humanitarian meltdown of unspeakable horror in Gaza, with the potential of a war in the north, and the West Bank on the brink, this is not the time for tossing the dice.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on December 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
B.M. - This was my home, with no electricity or gas, was my home, and Ahmad's & Fatma's & Abed's & Salim's"
Remember the Arabfacing video in the QRT? It is a part of a current Israeli TikTok trend - lipsyncing the lyrics to this song while Arabfacing, mocking the suffering of Gazans.
If you're wondering about the blackened teeth thing, it's a Palestinian trope in Israel in part because a lot of women gets sexually assaulted in captivity that often results in them losing their teeth.
Daniel Seidemann threadreader version of his thread:
This is the Jerusalem equivalent of DEFCON 1.
Thread.
1/
The facts: on Thursday evening,the first night of Hannukah, the Temple Mount Movements will conduct a march "approved by the police" from "the blessed Damascus Gate in the direction of the Temple Mount (near the Kotel). Image
2/
If there is any provocation more dangerous, more incendiary and more likely to trigger an eruption of violence in East Jerusalem and/or the West Bank and/or the Lebanese border, I can't think of one.
This is no doubt a cause of concern in Amman, Cairo and beyond.
3/
You will be told: the Police will never let it happen. Ben Gvir's Police? Wanna bet?
The Police are issuing "calming" statements. It will "only" be 200 marchers, and go through Al Wad St., the Muslim Quarter "only" as far as the Austian Hospice.
Satisfaction guaranteed.
4/
This is precisely the route that thousands of ultranationlist religious marauders took last May. They marched through the Muslim Quarter pounding in the locked doors of Palestinan storefronts and homes, screaming "death to the Arabs" and "May their villages burn".
5/
Then as well the Police did their Gunnar Jarring impersonation, devoted to maintain the rights of the marauders. Theu even announced in advance that they were cool with chants of "death to the Arabs".
There were indeed a few arrests - all Palestinan.
6/
For me, this is the worst part: not ONE public figure in Israel condemned the chants of death to the Arabs. Not one.
Not the Prime Minister, who has 5 houses (no less) a couple of kilometers away. Not the Mayor, who lords over the occupation of 400,000 Palestinans.
7/
In a very non-routine move, the United States publicly called upon the leaders of Israel to condemn the chants. No one did.
And I mean no one.
Herzog? Shtum.
Ganz? Shtum.
Lapid? הצחקתם אותי. Shtum.
Thus upcoming March is on these moral and political invertebrates, too.
8/
This is not "elective surgery". This has nothing to do with piety, and everything to do with pyromania.
Anyone inside Israel and in the international community with any sense if responsibility have to communicate unequivocally to the Netanyahu Regime: don't dare. Don't dare.
9/
Is it certain that this march will ignite violence?
No. My bet would be 50-50, at best.
W/ war and & a humanitarian meltdown of unspeakable horror in Gaza, with the potential of a war in the north, and the West Bank on the brink, this is not the time for tossing the dice.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on December 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
TikTok Struggles to Take Down Deepfake Videos of Hamas’ Victims - App struggles to take down videos of so-called digital resurrections
Beyond this bit, In a recent post on TikTok, a woman stands solemnly in front of armed soldiers in bulletproof vests.
“My body was exposed, almost lifeless, in the back of the truck by militants of Hamas,” the woman says in Spanish over melancholic flute music. “My name is Shani Louk. Sadness and uncertainty are now part of my reality. My identity and my dignity were taken from me at that moment.”, the rest of it is really strictly on the technical challenges and other examples from other instances and doesn't even indicate if these are just secondary content mill outputs or deliberate propaganda accounts.
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 PM on December 4, 2023
Beyond this bit, In a recent post on TikTok, a woman stands solemnly in front of armed soldiers in bulletproof vests.
“My body was exposed, almost lifeless, in the back of the truck by militants of Hamas,” the woman says in Spanish over melancholic flute music. “My name is Shani Louk. Sadness and uncertainty are now part of my reality. My identity and my dignity were taken from me at that moment.”, the rest of it is really strictly on the technical challenges and other examples from other instances and doesn't even indicate if these are just secondary content mill outputs or deliberate propaganda accounts.
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 PM on December 4, 2023
The Hill: Sanders opposed to sending $10B to ‘extremist Netanyahu government’ in Israel
Has he called for a ceasefire yet though?
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on December 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Has he called for a ceasefire yet though?
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on December 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
The facts: on Thursday evening,the first night of Hannukah, the Temple Mount Movements will conduct a march "approved by the police" from "the blessed Damascus Gate in the direction of the Temple Mount (near the Kotel).
Oh. Orange marches. Charming.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on December 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Oh. Orange marches. Charming.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on December 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Atrocity? I think Israel (and the US) will ultimately get away with it. Very few important US allies will seriously condemn them for it. Remember that even their Arab neighbours have said they won't put any 'skin' into the game by taking refugees or helping police a new Palestinian state.
I do wonder, though, whether the prospect of needing to take in refugees in the event Israel tries to forcefully expel large numbers of Palestinians will force the hands of some of the governments in the region. Part of the reason they don't want to take in Palestian refugees is the fear that Israel won't let the refugees return, but another part is the fear that the refugees will destablize their governments. I guess I'm just wondering at what point needs for self-preservation amongst goverments in the region might threaten a wider regional war.
The bear-hug strategy has failed in the most direct way possible: Far from being restrained, Israel is fighting one of the most ferociously murderous wars in the 21st century. It’s a war that, as Lloyd Austin notes, makes little strategic sense. Far from defeating Hamas, it will radicalize a new generation of Palestinians. Realizing this reality, Netanyahu is now shopping around a proposal to “thin out” Gaza’s population and expel the surviving residents into neighboring countries—a proposal that he is pitching to the leaders of both parties in Congress.
This policy, amounting to a second Nakba, would not only be a moral atrocity; it would destroy the reputation of Israel and the United States around the world for decades to come. The consequences of this policy, in terms of future terrorism and also loss of international credibility and fraying of alliances, would be incalculable.
I'd say that's already gone. The Biden administration is just finishing the work begun by the second Iraq War and Trump. Right now we're just letting Ukraine twist in the wind and getting ready to blame them for their failure to complete expell the Russians from their territory before the war. Meanwhile in the Middle East China and Quatar are already starting to fill the role the US previously played as a mediator, and the petrodollar is starting to decline at exactly the same time the United State's attempt to transition to clean energy is collapsing due to congressional infighting.
When I grew up in the 90's, real or not, it seemed like US soft power was at its height post-cold war. We'd bomb countries for doing stuff like what the Israeli's are doing. It's crazy we pissed away whatever chance we had at truely global peace post-cold war so fast. It probably always was a lie. I'm not sure if this is a worse crime by the US than the Iraq invasion, but somehow it feels worse.
posted by eagles123 at 8:14 PM on December 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I do wonder, though, whether the prospect of needing to take in refugees in the event Israel tries to forcefully expel large numbers of Palestinians will force the hands of some of the governments in the region. Part of the reason they don't want to take in Palestian refugees is the fear that Israel won't let the refugees return, but another part is the fear that the refugees will destablize their governments. I guess I'm just wondering at what point needs for self-preservation amongst goverments in the region might threaten a wider regional war.
The bear-hug strategy has failed in the most direct way possible: Far from being restrained, Israel is fighting one of the most ferociously murderous wars in the 21st century. It’s a war that, as Lloyd Austin notes, makes little strategic sense. Far from defeating Hamas, it will radicalize a new generation of Palestinians. Realizing this reality, Netanyahu is now shopping around a proposal to “thin out” Gaza’s population and expel the surviving residents into neighboring countries—a proposal that he is pitching to the leaders of both parties in Congress.
This policy, amounting to a second Nakba, would not only be a moral atrocity; it would destroy the reputation of Israel and the United States around the world for decades to come. The consequences of this policy, in terms of future terrorism and also loss of international credibility and fraying of alliances, would be incalculable.
I'd say that's already gone. The Biden administration is just finishing the work begun by the second Iraq War and Trump. Right now we're just letting Ukraine twist in the wind and getting ready to blame them for their failure to complete expell the Russians from their territory before the war. Meanwhile in the Middle East China and Quatar are already starting to fill the role the US previously played as a mediator, and the petrodollar is starting to decline at exactly the same time the United State's attempt to transition to clean energy is collapsing due to congressional infighting.
When I grew up in the 90's, real or not, it seemed like US soft power was at its height post-cold war. We'd bomb countries for doing stuff like what the Israeli's are doing. It's crazy we pissed away whatever chance we had at truely global peace post-cold war so fast. It probably always was a lie. I'm not sure if this is a worse crime by the US than the Iraq invasion, but somehow it feels worse.
posted by eagles123 at 8:14 PM on December 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
On that note-
Mehdi Hassan - Imagine if, say, the Russian government was making this notification to the WHO in Ukraine, say, a year ago. Politicians and pundits in the West would have been losing their minds.
He was qt-ing the DG of WHO who posted: Today, @WHO received notification from the Israel Defense Forces that we should remove our supplies from our medical warehouse in southern Gaza within 24 hours, as ground operations will put it beyond use.
We appeal to #Israel to withdraw the order, and take every possible measure to protect civilians and civilian infrastructure, including hospitals and humanitarian facilities.
[updated 21:40]
posted by cendawanita at 8:25 PM on December 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Mehdi Hassan - Imagine if, say, the Russian government was making this notification to the WHO in Ukraine, say, a year ago. Politicians and pundits in the West would have been losing their minds.
He was qt-ing the DG of WHO who posted: Today, @WHO received notification from the Israel Defense Forces that we should remove our supplies from our medical warehouse in southern Gaza within 24 hours, as ground operations will put it beyond use.
We appeal to #Israel to withdraw the order, and take every possible measure to protect civilians and civilian infrastructure, including hospitals and humanitarian facilities.
[updated 21:40]
posted by cendawanita at 8:25 PM on December 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
When I grew up in the 90's, real or not, it seemed like US soft power was at its height post-cold war. We'd bomb countries for doing stuff like what the Israeli's are doing.
That's actually kind of the opposite of what happened... in 1994, Hutu death squads murdered 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus and the US chose not to intervene (The Guardian), because they didn't want a repeat of the events in Somalia where US soldiers were killed, and there were no mineral resources or strategic value in Rwanda.
posted by xdvesper at 10:38 PM on December 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's actually kind of the opposite of what happened... in 1994, Hutu death squads murdered 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus and the US chose not to intervene (The Guardian), because they didn't want a repeat of the events in Somalia where US soldiers were killed, and there were no mineral resources or strategic value in Rwanda.
posted by xdvesper at 10:38 PM on December 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Clinton administration expressed extreme regret over allowing the genoicde in Rawanda. It was all over the news at the time.
posted by eagles123 at 10:42 PM on December 4, 2023
posted by eagles123 at 10:42 PM on December 4, 2023
Several pro-genocide organizations are uniting to spin up a new propaganda mill and shame factory in an effort to assure that all US coverage of the Israel/Palestinian conflict will reflect only Israel's position.
Their new group, the 10/7 Project will be working exclusively to attempt to coerce American, and only American, news agencies to make their already over the top pro-Israeli coverage even more like cheerleading for genocide than it already is.
Hillary Clinton, who joined Bill in "expressing regret" over ignoring the Rwandan genocide is one of many people pledging large quantities of cash to the 10/7 Project and its efforts to cheerlead for genocide. Which, well, what else would you expect from a person who bragged about how much Henry Kissenger liked her? Like everyone else in DC, neither Clinton has ever met a right wing genocide they didn't support.
posted by sotonohito at 6:35 AM on December 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
Their new group, the 10/7 Project will be working exclusively to attempt to coerce American, and only American, news agencies to make their already over the top pro-Israeli coverage even more like cheerleading for genocide than it already is.
Hillary Clinton, who joined Bill in "expressing regret" over ignoring the Rwandan genocide is one of many people pledging large quantities of cash to the 10/7 Project and its efforts to cheerlead for genocide. Which, well, what else would you expect from a person who bragged about how much Henry Kissenger liked her? Like everyone else in DC, neither Clinton has ever met a right wing genocide they didn't support.
posted by sotonohito at 6:35 AM on December 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
Interesting profile of the professional psychopath who seems to have risen to oversee a lot of US policy in the Middle East Brett McGurk. He outlined a Biden doctrine for the Middle East back in February at the Atlantic Council. This profile from 2021 is extremely unflattering.
posted by interogative mood at 12:02 PM on December 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:02 PM on December 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
FBI Chief Warns Hamas-Inspired Terror Threats Have Reached Unprecedented Level.
Section 702 12-5.
Intel officials warn Israel-Gaza war could inspire terror attacks against Americans in U.S. Oct. 31.
US Issues New Domestic Threat Warning
May 25, 2023
Major Foreign Terror Attack on US 'Almost Inconceivable' Right Now
March 27, 2023
'CTC-ICT Focus on Israel: In Word and Deed? Global Jihad and the Threat to Israel and the Jewish Community' Sept. 2023
"Third, this study has underscored the importance of “trigger events” which, at least in the Israeli-Palestinian context, have been reliably followed by an increase in verbal condemnations and threats directed at the Jewish state."
posted by clavdivs at 5:57 PM on December 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Section 702 12-5.
Intel officials warn Israel-Gaza war could inspire terror attacks against Americans in U.S. Oct. 31.
US Issues New Domestic Threat Warning
May 25, 2023
Major Foreign Terror Attack on US 'Almost Inconceivable' Right Now
March 27, 2023
'CTC-ICT Focus on Israel: In Word and Deed? Global Jihad and the Threat to Israel and the Jewish Community' Sept. 2023
"Third, this study has underscored the importance of “trigger events” which, at least in the Israeli-Palestinian context, have been reliably followed by an increase in verbal condemnations and threats directed at the Jewish state."
posted by clavdivs at 5:57 PM on December 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"The politics of the last atrocity" was a much used phrase during the troubles in Northern Ireland, especially by the heroic peacemaker John Hume. It seems to be a game that we're forever doomed to play.
posted by night_train at 1:40 AM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by night_train at 1:40 AM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
FT: Military briefing: the Israeli bombs raining on Gaza (archived)
Citing estimates of damage to urban areas, military analysts say the destruction of northern Gaza in less than seven weeks has approached that caused by the years-long carpet-bombing of German cities during the second world war.CHE: Scholars who Study the Middle East are Afraid to Speak Out (archived)
“Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne — some of the world’s heaviest-ever bombings are remembered by their place names,” said Robert Pape, a US military historian and author of Bombing to Win, a landmark survey of 20th century bombing campaigns. “Gaza will also go down as a place name denoting one of history’s heaviest conventional bombing campaigns.”
The findings were stark: Eighty-two percent of all U.S.-based respondents, including almost all assistant professors (98 percent), said they self-censor when they speak professionally about the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Just over 81 percent of those self-censoring said they primarily held back their criticism of Israel, while 11 percent said they held back from criticizing Palestinians. Only 2 percent said criticizing U.S. policy was the biggest issue.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:35 AM on December 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
The hostages who’ve made it out are pretty angry at the way Israel is handling the situation. Not only does Netanyahu not care about Palestinian civilians, he doesn’t care about Israeli’s either.
posted by interogative mood at 10:15 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:15 AM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
'In a rare move, UN Secretary-General Guterres has invoked Article 99 of the UN Charter, forcing the Security Council to address the Gaza war.'
Article 99.
The Secretary-General may bring to the "attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security."
In Hindsight: Article 99 and Providing the Security Council with Early Warning
posted by clavdivs at 11:17 AM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Article 99.
The Secretary-General may bring to the "attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security."
In Hindsight: Article 99 and Providing the Security Council with Early Warning
posted by clavdivs at 11:17 AM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hostage families have tense meeting with War Cabinet, say Netanyahu 'detached' from their concerns - Families of hostages and freed captives described in great detail what happens to those being held by Hamas; 'Terrified that it would not be Hamas, but Israel, that would kill us'
posted by Artw at 6:02 PM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:02 PM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
The open source maps suggest that Israel isn’t making enough progress to win in the timeframe it has for this operation. In northern Gaza they’ve knocked down a lot of buildings, killed a lot of civilians but they still can’t occupy the urban cores like Jabalya. Israel can’t afford to keep this up. The people they’ve mobilized are going to need to get back to their day jobs. Now they are turning to desperation tactics like trying to flood the tunnels. Even at these absurd levels of civilian casualties they are barely scratching Hamas. They’ve maybe reduced Hamas by 10% of its manpower.
Hamas is going to end up running out the clock and claiming victory in the ruins Israel leaves behind.
posted by interogative mood at 7:23 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hamas is going to end up running out the clock and claiming victory in the ruins Israel leaves behind.
posted by interogative mood at 7:23 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hamas is going to end up running out the clock and claiming victory in the ruins Israel leaves behind.
This was always the risk of falling for Hamas's rope-a-dope strategy. They provoked the desired over-reaction, with almost all of the consequences falling on civilians, and like you say, as long as they are still there at the end, they will be able to claim some form of victory.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:53 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
This was always the risk of falling for Hamas's rope-a-dope strategy. They provoked the desired over-reaction, with almost all of the consequences falling on civilians, and like you say, as long as they are still there at the end, they will be able to claim some form of victory.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:53 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
There was never any chance that Israel could kill enough Hamas members to end it as an organisation and it has gained a lot of legitimacy since the bombing began.
The real Israeli plan was to make Gaza so uninhabitable that it forced the Gazan population into camps in Egypt but the US has stopped that happening and now they're stuck.
posted by zymil at 12:20 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
The real Israeli plan was to make Gaza so uninhabitable that it forced the Gazan population into camps in Egypt but the US has stopped that happening and now they're stuck.
posted by zymil at 12:20 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Shared everywhere, Times of Israel: IDF appears to push back on ‘irresponsible’ US claim Hamas refusing to release raped hostages - “The conversation around the issue is irresponsible, inaccurate and should be avoided,” the IDF says in a rare statement.
The pushback is apparently in response to comments from US State Department spokesman Matthew Miller Monday that Hamas terrorists likely held back on freeing female hostages because it did not want them to speak publicly about being subjected to rape and other sexual violence. - this has been debunked by other journalists but anyway, here's the IDF.
Other bits:
Reported everywhere but here's Al-Jazeera: US announces visa bans after warning Israel on West Bank settler violence
Robert A. Pape writes for Foreign Affairs: Israel’s Failed Bombing Campaign in Gaza -
Whatever the ultimate goal, Israel’s collective devastation of Gaza raises deep moral problems. But even judged purely in strategic terms, Israel’s approach is doomed to failure—and indeed, it is already failing. Mass civilian punishment has not convinced Gaza’s residents to stop supporting Hamas. To the contrary, it has only heightened resentment among Palestinians. Nor has the campaign succeeded in dismantling the group ostensibly being targeted. Fifty-plus days of war show that while Israel can demolish Gaza, it cannot destroy Hamas. In fact, the group may be stronger now than it was before.
Israel is hardly the first country to err by placing excessive faith in the coercive magic of airpower. History shows that the large-scale bombing of civilian areas almost never achieves its objectives. Israel would have been better off had it heeded these lessons and responded to the October 7 attack with surgical strikes against Hamas’s leaders and fighters in lieu of the indiscriminate bombing campaign it has chosen. But it is not too late to shift course and adopt a viable alternative strategy for achieving lasting security, an approach that would drive a political wedge between Hamas and the Palestinians rather than bringing them closer together: take meaningful, unilateral steps toward a two-state solution.
[...] Now Gaza can be added to this infamous list. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has himself likened the current campaign to the Allies’ fight in World War II. While denying that Israel was engaging in collective punishment today, he pointed out that a Royal Air Force strike targeting Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen killed scores of schoolchildren.
What Netanyahu left unmentioned was that none of the Allies’ efforts to punish civilians en masse actually succeeded. In Germany, the Allied bombing campaign, which took off beginning in 1942, wreaked havoc on civilians, destroying one urban area after another and ultimately a total of 58 German cities and towns by the end of the war. But it never sapped civilian morale or prompted an uprising against Adolf Hitler, despite the confident predictions of Allied officials. Indeed, the campaign only encouraged Germans to fight harder for fear of a draconian postwar peace.
A bombing campaign has never caused the targeted population to revolt against its own government.
That failure should not have been so surprising, given what happened when the Nazis tried the same tactic. The Blitz, their bombing of London and other British cities in 1940–41, killed more than 40,000 people, and yet British Prime Minister Winston Churchill refused to capitulate. Instead, he invoked the resulting civilian casualties to rally society to make the sacrifices necessary for victory. Rather than shattering morale, the Blitz motivated the British to organize a years-long effort—with their U.S. and Soviet allies—to counterattack and ultimately conquer the country that had bombed them.
In fact, never in history has a bombing campaign caused the targeted population to revolt against its own government. The United States has tried the tactic numerous times, to no avail. During the Korean War, it destroyed 90 percent of electricity generation in North Korea. In the Vietnam War, it knocked out nearly as much power in North Vietnam. And in the Gulf War, U.S. air attacks disrupted 90 percent of electricity generation in Iraq. But in none of these cases did the population rise up.
The war in Ukraine is the most recent case in point. For nearly two years, Russia has sought to coerce Ukraine through wave after wave of devasting air assaults on cities across the country, killing more than 10,000 civilians, destroying more than 1.5 million homes, and displacing some eight million Ukrainians. Russia is clearly shattering Ukraine. But far from crushing Ukraine’s fighting spirit, this massive civilian punishment has only convinced Ukrainians to fight Russia more intensely than ever.
Al-Jazeera explainer: Why is Israel at war with the UN?
Raphael Mimoun: Right now, most Israelis are in full-fledged war mode. There is no holding back: people on the Israeli right are calling for outright ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza; those on the center and left say that civilian deaths are unfortunate but inevitable.
But it wasn't always like this. Here I want to share about how central the concept of peace is for many Israelis and Zionists, and why peace alone has not been nor will be enough to end the conflict.
posted by cendawanita at 12:37 AM on December 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
The pushback is apparently in response to comments from US State Department spokesman Matthew Miller Monday that Hamas terrorists likely held back on freeing female hostages because it did not want them to speak publicly about being subjected to rape and other sexual violence. - this has been debunked by other journalists but anyway, here's the IDF.
Other bits:
Reported everywhere but here's Al-Jazeera: US announces visa bans after warning Israel on West Bank settler violence
Robert A. Pape writes for Foreign Affairs: Israel’s Failed Bombing Campaign in Gaza -
Whatever the ultimate goal, Israel’s collective devastation of Gaza raises deep moral problems. But even judged purely in strategic terms, Israel’s approach is doomed to failure—and indeed, it is already failing. Mass civilian punishment has not convinced Gaza’s residents to stop supporting Hamas. To the contrary, it has only heightened resentment among Palestinians. Nor has the campaign succeeded in dismantling the group ostensibly being targeted. Fifty-plus days of war show that while Israel can demolish Gaza, it cannot destroy Hamas. In fact, the group may be stronger now than it was before.
Israel is hardly the first country to err by placing excessive faith in the coercive magic of airpower. History shows that the large-scale bombing of civilian areas almost never achieves its objectives. Israel would have been better off had it heeded these lessons and responded to the October 7 attack with surgical strikes against Hamas’s leaders and fighters in lieu of the indiscriminate bombing campaign it has chosen. But it is not too late to shift course and adopt a viable alternative strategy for achieving lasting security, an approach that would drive a political wedge between Hamas and the Palestinians rather than bringing them closer together: take meaningful, unilateral steps toward a two-state solution.
[...] Now Gaza can be added to this infamous list. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has himself likened the current campaign to the Allies’ fight in World War II. While denying that Israel was engaging in collective punishment today, he pointed out that a Royal Air Force strike targeting Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen killed scores of schoolchildren.
What Netanyahu left unmentioned was that none of the Allies’ efforts to punish civilians en masse actually succeeded. In Germany, the Allied bombing campaign, which took off beginning in 1942, wreaked havoc on civilians, destroying one urban area after another and ultimately a total of 58 German cities and towns by the end of the war. But it never sapped civilian morale or prompted an uprising against Adolf Hitler, despite the confident predictions of Allied officials. Indeed, the campaign only encouraged Germans to fight harder for fear of a draconian postwar peace.
A bombing campaign has never caused the targeted population to revolt against its own government.
That failure should not have been so surprising, given what happened when the Nazis tried the same tactic. The Blitz, their bombing of London and other British cities in 1940–41, killed more than 40,000 people, and yet British Prime Minister Winston Churchill refused to capitulate. Instead, he invoked the resulting civilian casualties to rally society to make the sacrifices necessary for victory. Rather than shattering morale, the Blitz motivated the British to organize a years-long effort—with their U.S. and Soviet allies—to counterattack and ultimately conquer the country that had bombed them.
In fact, never in history has a bombing campaign caused the targeted population to revolt against its own government. The United States has tried the tactic numerous times, to no avail. During the Korean War, it destroyed 90 percent of electricity generation in North Korea. In the Vietnam War, it knocked out nearly as much power in North Vietnam. And in the Gulf War, U.S. air attacks disrupted 90 percent of electricity generation in Iraq. But in none of these cases did the population rise up.
The war in Ukraine is the most recent case in point. For nearly two years, Russia has sought to coerce Ukraine through wave after wave of devasting air assaults on cities across the country, killing more than 10,000 civilians, destroying more than 1.5 million homes, and displacing some eight million Ukrainians. Russia is clearly shattering Ukraine. But far from crushing Ukraine’s fighting spirit, this massive civilian punishment has only convinced Ukrainians to fight Russia more intensely than ever.
Al-Jazeera explainer: Why is Israel at war with the UN?
Raphael Mimoun: Right now, most Israelis are in full-fledged war mode. There is no holding back: people on the Israeli right are calling for outright ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza; those on the center and left say that civilian deaths are unfortunate but inevitable.
But it wasn't always like this. Here I want to share about how central the concept of peace is for many Israelis and Zionists, and why peace alone has not been nor will be enough to end the conflict.
posted by cendawanita at 12:37 AM on December 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think a lot about the tweet I saw a couple months ago now, saying “I dunno about you but if I were Palestinian and being subjected to this stuff nominally meant to stop Hamas, even if they did, at this point I would basically immediately start Hamas 2”
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:23 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:23 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
CNN: What we know about rape and sexual violence inflicted by Hamas during its terror attack on Israel Content Warning: Descriptions of horrible acts of sexual violence.
posted by gwint at 5:24 AM on December 7, 2023
posted by gwint at 5:24 AM on December 7, 2023
Noted tankie rag the Financial Times: "The catastrophic destruction of northern Gaza in less than seven weeks has approached that caused by the years-long carpet-bombing of German cities during the second world war"
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:32 AM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:32 AM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've never really doubted that there was extreme sexual violence involved in October 7
I *have* been critical that the default assumption is that "Arab terrorists" always do this and we didn't need to even wait for actual accusations or evidence, while the last face to face conversation I had with a Zionist, he walked away disgusted with me for daring to suggest that the IDF ever used sexual violence.
I want to be clear that my position is much closer to "both sides suck" than it is pro-Hamas, it's just that I exist in a media environment where Israeli wrongs are "extraordinary crimes require extraordinary evidence" and Palestinian criminality is assumed by default.
War is bad and enables the worst of society, maybe there's something about dehumanisation in here.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:42 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I *have* been critical that the default assumption is that "Arab terrorists" always do this and we didn't need to even wait for actual accusations or evidence, while the last face to face conversation I had with a Zionist, he walked away disgusted with me for daring to suggest that the IDF ever used sexual violence.
I want to be clear that my position is much closer to "both sides suck" than it is pro-Hamas, it's just that I exist in a media environment where Israeli wrongs are "extraordinary crimes require extraordinary evidence" and Palestinian criminality is assumed by default.
War is bad and enables the worst of society, maybe there's something about dehumanisation in here.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:42 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I want to be clear that my position is much closer to "both sides suck" than it is pro-Hamas, it's just that I exist in a media environment where Israeli wrongs are "extraordinary crimes require extraordinary evidence" and Palestinian criminality is assumed by default.I don’t really even doubt that Hamas are worse, or that a large number of casualties are due to Hamas effectively using their neighbors as human shields. What I don’t see is how that justifies killing innocents, or how there’s any path out of this short of Netanyahu being imprisoned for war crimes which doesn’t leave Israel with more enemies and less support. Even a “successful” strike seems likely to radicalize more newly-bereft people to join Hamas than it kills. I don’t know what the plan is other than dragging things out hoping a better option materializes.
I think the FT writer had a really good point that their research showed loss of land producing more terrorists than anything else, and the role of the settlers entrenching the violence really should be at the top of the debate.
posted by adamsc at 6:15 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Robert A. Pape writes for Foreign Affairs: Israel’s Failed Bombing Campaign in Gaza -
This is worth reading, and thank you for linking it. Worthwhile context here is that he is the author of Bombing to Win: Air Power and Coercion in War, so he is someone with credibility in discussing the history and impacts of bombing campaigns. (Plus his later research on suicide bombings, which he mentions in the article.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is worth reading, and thank you for linking it. Worthwhile context here is that he is the author of Bombing to Win: Air Power and Coercion in War, so he is someone with credibility in discussing the history and impacts of bombing campaigns. (Plus his later research on suicide bombings, which he mentions in the article.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:24 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
When Rabin and Israeli leaders before and after him pursued peace, achieving justice for Palestinians—ensuring that a peace deal would give them real self-determination and accounted for decades of injustices—was never a priority.
This piece from Mimoun, thank you cendawanita, really moved me a bit. I can actually come around to the necessity of Israel, if we start from the position that it is not the Palestinians job to provide it. Jewish people do deserve somewhere to feel safe. Justice is the first step to *real* peace. Peace without justice is a fantasy.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:27 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
This piece from Mimoun, thank you cendawanita, really moved me a bit. I can actually come around to the necessity of Israel, if we start from the position that it is not the Palestinians job to provide it. Jewish people do deserve somewhere to feel safe. Justice is the first step to *real* peace. Peace without justice is a fantasy.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:27 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
so he is someone with credibility in discussing the history and impacts of bombing campaigns. (Plus his later research on suicide bombings, which he mentions in the article.)
Haven't read the piece and have no opinions about anything he claims in it anyway, but I should note that everyone in the discipline thinks Pape's work kinda sucks, especially his research design. Like his work on suicide bombings is a textbook example of how NOT to design a study. He's also (so I've heard) a massive shithead, in the way that only prestigious senior academics can be.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:06 AM on December 7, 2023
Haven't read the piece and have no opinions about anything he claims in it anyway, but I should note that everyone in the discipline thinks Pape's work kinda sucks, especially his research design. Like his work on suicide bombings is a textbook example of how NOT to design a study. He's also (so I've heard) a massive shithead, in the way that only prestigious senior academics can be.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:06 AM on December 7, 2023
Strike That Killed Reuters Journalist Was ‘Apparently Deliberate’ Israeli Attack, Group Says
An Oct. 13 strike that killed a videographer for the Reuters news agency and injured six others in southern Lebanon was carried out by the Israeli military and appeared to be a deliberate attack, Human Rights Watch said on Thursday.
The watchdog group said that evidence it had reviewed — including dozens of videos of the incident, photographs and satellite images, and interviews with witnesses and military experts — showed that the journalists were not near areas where fighting was taking place and that there was no military objective near their position.
“The attack on the journalists’ position directly targeted them,” the report said, labeling the attack a war crime.
The Israeli authorities did not immediately respond to the report.
Reuters published its own investigation on Thursday and said that an Israeli tank crew had killed its journalist and wounded the others.
“The evidence we now have, and have published today, shows that an Israeli tank crew killed our colleague Issam Abdallah,” the Reuters editor-in-chief, Alessandra Galloni, said in a statement. She called on Israel “to explain how this could have happened and to hold to account those responsible.”
I guess bored Israeli soldiers have to have something to do when they're not raping 13 year-old boys.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
An Oct. 13 strike that killed a videographer for the Reuters news agency and injured six others in southern Lebanon was carried out by the Israeli military and appeared to be a deliberate attack, Human Rights Watch said on Thursday.
The watchdog group said that evidence it had reviewed — including dozens of videos of the incident, photographs and satellite images, and interviews with witnesses and military experts — showed that the journalists were not near areas where fighting was taking place and that there was no military objective near their position.
“The attack on the journalists’ position directly targeted them,” the report said, labeling the attack a war crime.
The Israeli authorities did not immediately respond to the report.
Reuters published its own investigation on Thursday and said that an Israeli tank crew had killed its journalist and wounded the others.
“The evidence we now have, and have published today, shows that an Israeli tank crew killed our colleague Issam Abdallah,” the Reuters editor-in-chief, Alessandra Galloni, said in a statement. She called on Israel “to explain how this could have happened and to hold to account those responsible.”
I guess bored Israeli soldiers have to have something to do when they're not raping 13 year-old boys.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 AM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Egyptian prime minister Mostafa Madbouly: "We are prepared to sacrifice millions of lives to ensure that no one encroaches upon our territory." Why Egypt has not fully opened its Gaza border for fleeing Palestinians
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:07 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:07 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Re the bombing, world pushback is growing, and judgements now coming that this campaign has failed, or will fail, and is even a Hamas victory of sorts. Lots to agree with.
But its still early days. I would say the following:
- Israel is like just about any other nation in wanting to retaliate and seek vengeance for a grievous wrong done to them. Hard to expect them to show restraint when we don't. So an oversized initial response was pretty much guaranteed, even if not the best path to victory.
- The current Hamas or its important strategic/military members won't ever form part of new governance in Gaza. As terrorists, they're dead people walking and Israel will show its legendary persistence in finding and eliminating them. So if this is a victory for Hamas, it's a Pyrrhic one.
- As I mentioned earlier, I believe that Israel is still playing the long game as well. Even if the campaigns in Gaza and the West Bank aren't immediately successful in ending Palestinian hopes for justice and a nation, the destruction of much of Gaza and the miserable and worsening conditions for all Palestinians will lead to increased emigration. At some point you have to put family above national aspirations.
This is just me trying to make sense of it all, and not what I hope will happen.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:08 AM on December 7, 2023
But its still early days. I would say the following:
- Israel is like just about any other nation in wanting to retaliate and seek vengeance for a grievous wrong done to them. Hard to expect them to show restraint when we don't. So an oversized initial response was pretty much guaranteed, even if not the best path to victory.
- The current Hamas or its important strategic/military members won't ever form part of new governance in Gaza. As terrorists, they're dead people walking and Israel will show its legendary persistence in finding and eliminating them. So if this is a victory for Hamas, it's a Pyrrhic one.
- As I mentioned earlier, I believe that Israel is still playing the long game as well. Even if the campaigns in Gaza and the West Bank aren't immediately successful in ending Palestinian hopes for justice and a nation, the destruction of much of Gaza and the miserable and worsening conditions for all Palestinians will lead to increased emigration. At some point you have to put family above national aspirations.
This is just me trying to make sense of it all, and not what I hope will happen.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:08 AM on December 7, 2023
The whole point of these targeted attacks, along with the attacks on hospitals, universities, government buildings, the archive, etc, is to destroy Palestinian civil society. It isn't an accident or something that individual soldiers do; it's the process of destroying Palestine as a livable place where rebuilding can happen.
A few days ago, I saw a statistic that 46% of housing in Palestine is damaged or destroyed. Hospitals, schools, clinics and government buildings have been damaged or destroyed. Doctors and health care workers have been kidnapped or killed along with journalists. Note that Israel controls the borders - even if money poured into Palestine and somehow everything stopped, Israel would still control much of what comes in and would almost certainly withhold many key supplies as they have in the past.
Before this started, if you were an active cyclist, you could cycle all around Gaza in a long day - you could do a loop that would be under sixty miles. This area is so small. It is covered with rubble and most key facilities have been or are being destroyed. Now the aquifers are being flooded with sea water.
This is not a war; literal on the ground fighting is a scrim over what is really happening, the rendering of a small civilian area entirely uninhabitable. Once Gaza is entirely bombed to pieces and starvation and epidemics have killed more people, the Israelis clearly think, as per interviews with government officials, that they can drive out the remainder of the Palestinians and force them to become refugees because it will simply be impossible to make a physical life in Gaza. Whether this is what actually happens or whether it proves impossible to frighten or kill a critical number of Palestinians, that is what is being attempted.
Consider how much destruction has already been wrought, and that the bombing campaigns aren't stopping. Everyone keeps saying that Israel has "limited time" to pursue this war, but if half Gaza and a huge amount of critical infrastructure has been destroyed in two months, how much will be left after another month or so?
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on December 7, 2023 [24 favorites]
A few days ago, I saw a statistic that 46% of housing in Palestine is damaged or destroyed. Hospitals, schools, clinics and government buildings have been damaged or destroyed. Doctors and health care workers have been kidnapped or killed along with journalists. Note that Israel controls the borders - even if money poured into Palestine and somehow everything stopped, Israel would still control much of what comes in and would almost certainly withhold many key supplies as they have in the past.
Before this started, if you were an active cyclist, you could cycle all around Gaza in a long day - you could do a loop that would be under sixty miles. This area is so small. It is covered with rubble and most key facilities have been or are being destroyed. Now the aquifers are being flooded with sea water.
This is not a war; literal on the ground fighting is a scrim over what is really happening, the rendering of a small civilian area entirely uninhabitable. Once Gaza is entirely bombed to pieces and starvation and epidemics have killed more people, the Israelis clearly think, as per interviews with government officials, that they can drive out the remainder of the Palestinians and force them to become refugees because it will simply be impossible to make a physical life in Gaza. Whether this is what actually happens or whether it proves impossible to frighten or kill a critical number of Palestinians, that is what is being attempted.
Consider how much destruction has already been wrought, and that the bombing campaigns aren't stopping. Everyone keeps saying that Israel has "limited time" to pursue this war, but if half Gaza and a huge amount of critical infrastructure has been destroyed in two months, how much will be left after another month or so?
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on December 7, 2023 [24 favorites]
The whole point of these targeted attacks, along with the attacks on hospitals, universities, government buildings, the archive, etc, is to destroy Palestinian civil society.
It's not just an ethnic cleansing, it's a cultural one as well. Just looks at the schools being destroyed, poets and artists being detained, journalists being murdered at rates never seen before, artistic symbols of Palestinian existence being destroyed. And this is all with the enthusiastic support of every major Jewish organization and both parties in the US.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:36 AM on December 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's not just an ethnic cleansing, it's a cultural one as well. Just looks at the schools being destroyed, poets and artists being detained, journalists being murdered at rates never seen before, artistic symbols of Palestinian existence being destroyed. And this is all with the enthusiastic support of every major Jewish organization and both parties in the US.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:36 AM on December 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Background colour stuff:
Mairav Zonszein: The only images Israeli mainstream media shows of Gaza are either of Palestinians evacuating areas or of Hamas purportedly stealing aid and Palestinians grabbing food and water chaotically. Israel is trying to show a breakdown of order but refuses to show carnage and death
This kind of explains the recent videos from Corey Gil-Shuster, who has an Ask Project that does vox pops in Israel and Palestine. This one is just uploaded and filmed on 29 Nov: asking Israelis if Israel is committing a genocide. Note: they don't just ask Jewish Israelis, and there's a clear difference in perspective depending on that. (That's just me being diplomatic about the casual anti-arab racism and Islamophobia expressed)
(Twt) Al-Jazeera interview with Munther Isaac, the pastor at Bethlehem's Evangelical Lutheran Church. (Maybe everyone elsewhere celebrating Christmas can take a note from their decor)
The Guardian picture essay on West Bank settlers - A recent Human Rights Watch report says settler violence in the occupied West Bank has doubled since the 7 October attacks. Photographer David Lombeida stayed with Palestinian families facing threats and abuse from settlers encroaching on their land
Saw a notice here that Israelism is available for rental till this weekend worldwide at kinema. Synopsis: When two young American Jews raised to unconditionally love Israel witness the brutal way Israel treats Palestinians, their lives take sharp left turns. They join a movement of young American Jews battling the old guard to redefine Judaism’s relationship with Israel, revealing a deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity.
Times of Israel: IDF officials: 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas fighter killed in Gaza
IDF believes some 5,000 terrorists killed so far; says new high-tech mapping software should help to further reduce civilian casualties as war moves into crowded southern Gaza
The long-term environmental toll of Israel's assault on Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mairav Zonszein: The only images Israeli mainstream media shows of Gaza are either of Palestinians evacuating areas or of Hamas purportedly stealing aid and Palestinians grabbing food and water chaotically. Israel is trying to show a breakdown of order but refuses to show carnage and death
This kind of explains the recent videos from Corey Gil-Shuster, who has an Ask Project that does vox pops in Israel and Palestine. This one is just uploaded and filmed on 29 Nov: asking Israelis if Israel is committing a genocide. Note: they don't just ask Jewish Israelis, and there's a clear difference in perspective depending on that. (That's just me being diplomatic about the casual anti-arab racism and Islamophobia expressed)
(Twt) Al-Jazeera interview with Munther Isaac, the pastor at Bethlehem's Evangelical Lutheran Church. (Maybe everyone elsewhere celebrating Christmas can take a note from their decor)
The Guardian picture essay on West Bank settlers - A recent Human Rights Watch report says settler violence in the occupied West Bank has doubled since the 7 October attacks. Photographer David Lombeida stayed with Palestinian families facing threats and abuse from settlers encroaching on their land
Saw a notice here that Israelism is available for rental till this weekend worldwide at kinema. Synopsis: When two young American Jews raised to unconditionally love Israel witness the brutal way Israel treats Palestinians, their lives take sharp left turns. They join a movement of young American Jews battling the old guard to redefine Judaism’s relationship with Israel, revealing a deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity.
Times of Israel: IDF officials: 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas fighter killed in Gaza
IDF believes some 5,000 terrorists killed so far; says new high-tech mapping software should help to further reduce civilian casualties as war moves into crowded southern Gaza
The long-term environmental toll of Israel's assault on Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Re: ethnic cleansing and cultural erasure thread:
Dr HA Hellyer - Times of Israel reports: "Several religious IDF soldiers establish ‘first Chabad House’ in Gaza Strip" - timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry… .
Yair Wallach also comments: I said in class about two weeks ago that we would soon see a settlement nucleus in Gaza. Anyone who is familiar with the history of the settlement movement knows: this is how it starts.
posted by cendawanita at 8:54 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dr HA Hellyer - Times of Israel reports: "Several religious IDF soldiers establish ‘first Chabad House’ in Gaza Strip" - timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry… .
Yair Wallach also comments: I said in class about two weeks ago that we would soon see a settlement nucleus in Gaza. Anyone who is familiar with the history of the settlement movement knows: this is how it starts.
posted by cendawanita at 8:54 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
News is coming fast but I'm going to sleep, so I'll settle with this link: Israeli forces detain TNA Arabic reporter in mass arrest, beating of men at Gaza shelter
posted by cendawanita at 9:07 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:07 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
The IDF is rounding up Palestinian men in Gaza, loading them in trucks, and driving them somewhere.
Veteran journalist Diaa Al-Kahlot is one of those detained.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:15 AM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Veteran journalist Diaa Al-Kahlot is one of those detained.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:15 AM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israeli communications Minister Shlomo Karhi has proposed a government resolution to halt any state advertising, subscriptions or other commercial connections with the Haaretz daily newspaper, citing what he described as the publication’s “defeatist and false propaganda” against the State of Israel during wartime.
Haaretz recently carried the story of Israeli helicopters shooting Israeli civilians on Oct 7th.
posted by Lanark at 10:46 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Haaretz recently carried the story of Israeli helicopters shooting Israeli civilians on Oct 7th.
posted by Lanark at 10:46 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Haaretz also has repeatedly criticized and called for Netanyahu to step down.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:16 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:16 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Haaretz recently carried the story of Israeli helicopters shooting Israeli civilians on Oct 7th.
To clarify: "The Haaretz article in Hebrew cites an unnamed Israel Police official saying that its investigation of the incident found that an IDF helicopter at the site that was firing at terrorists 'apparently harmed a few partygoers who were in the area.'
Elements of the Haaretz article were taken widely out of context on social media and used to blame Israel for hundreds of civilian deaths on October 7, none of which has any basis in fact and in extensive reporting about the massacre."
Lanark's comment was technically accurate, but "shooting Israeli civilians" could easily been misinterpreted as suggesting that it was intentional.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:03 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
To clarify: "The Haaretz article in Hebrew cites an unnamed Israel Police official saying that its investigation of the incident found that an IDF helicopter at the site that was firing at terrorists 'apparently harmed a few partygoers who were in the area.'
Elements of the Haaretz article were taken widely out of context on social media and used to blame Israel for hundreds of civilian deaths on October 7, none of which has any basis in fact and in extensive reporting about the massacre."
Lanark's comment was technically accurate, but "shooting Israeli civilians" could easily been misinterpreted as suggesting that it was intentional.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:03 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hard to expect them to show restraint when we don't.
that is not true, the US does sometimes refrain from indiscriminate bombing. Not always, but sometimes. It's always a policy choice.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:15 PM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
that is not true, the US does sometimes refrain from indiscriminate bombing. Not always, but sometimes. It's always a policy choice.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:15 PM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israel killed Prof. Refaat al-Areer, one of Gaza's most prominent writers, poets & activists who spent his life trying to get Gaza's voice to the outside world.
He was killed in a targeted airstrike on his sister's home that also killed his brother, sister & her 4 kids.
His last tweet:
"The Democratic Party and Biden are responsible for the Gaza genocide perpetrated by Israel."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:34 PM on December 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
He was killed in a targeted airstrike on his sister's home that also killed his brother, sister & her 4 kids.
His last tweet:
"The Democratic Party and Biden are responsible for the Gaza genocide perpetrated by Israel."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:34 PM on December 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
“We are prepared to sacrifice millions of lives to ensure that no one encroaches upon our territory,” Egypt’s prime minister, Mostafa Madbouly, said earlier this week.
From a link far above. Emphasis mine. Holy shit. That is all.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:42 PM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
From a link far above. Emphasis mine. Holy shit. That is all.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:42 PM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
The hostages in the they article also mentioned having been attacked by Israeli helicopters.
posted by Artw at 12:45 PM on December 7, 2023
posted by Artw at 12:45 PM on December 7, 2023
In Germany, the Allied bombing campaign, which took off beginning in 1942, wreaked havoc on civilians,...That failure should not have been so surprising, given what happened when the Nazis tried the same tactic. The Blitz, their bombing of London and other British cities in 1940–41, killed more than 40,000 people, and yet British Prime Minister Winston Churchill refused to capitulate.
"The first RAF raid on Berlin took place on the night of 25 August 1940; 95 aircraft were dispatched to bomb Tempelhof Airport near the centre of Berlin and Siemensstadt, of which 81 dropped their bombs in and around Berlin,[11][12] and while the damage was slight, the psychological effect on Hitler was greater. The bombing raids on Berlin prompted Hitler to order the shift of the Luftwaffe's target from British airfields and air defenses to British cities."
"By September 1940, the Luftwaffe had lost the Battle of Britain and the German air fleets (Luftflotten) were ordered to attack London, to draw RAF Fighter Command into a battle of annihilation.[5][6] Adolf Hitler and Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe, ordered the new policy on 6 September 1940."
the idea of strategic bombing is not regime change but to degrade the enemies morale, ability to fight, and drain resources on rebuilding. it's quite controversial that Churchill bombed Berlin first, some historians posit that he did this in order to save what's left of the RAF
posted by clavdivs at 12:56 PM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
"The first RAF raid on Berlin took place on the night of 25 August 1940; 95 aircraft were dispatched to bomb Tempelhof Airport near the centre of Berlin and Siemensstadt, of which 81 dropped their bombs in and around Berlin,[11][12] and while the damage was slight, the psychological effect on Hitler was greater. The bombing raids on Berlin prompted Hitler to order the shift of the Luftwaffe's target from British airfields and air defenses to British cities."
"By September 1940, the Luftwaffe had lost the Battle of Britain and the German air fleets (Luftflotten) were ordered to attack London, to draw RAF Fighter Command into a battle of annihilation.[5][6] Adolf Hitler and Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe, ordered the new policy on 6 September 1940."
the idea of strategic bombing is not regime change but to degrade the enemies morale, ability to fight, and drain resources on rebuilding. it's quite controversial that Churchill bombed Berlin first, some historians posit that he did this in order to save what's left of the RAF
posted by clavdivs at 12:56 PM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
could easily been misinterpreted as suggesting that it was intentional.
Collateral damage is still administered intentionally. It's not like the helicopter weapons misfired. The IDF knew Israeli citizens were present and proceeded to open fire anyways.
posted by Mitheral at 1:10 PM on December 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Collateral damage is still administered intentionally. It's not like the helicopter weapons misfired. The IDF knew Israeli citizens were present and proceeded to open fire anyways.
posted by Mitheral at 1:10 PM on December 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
interesting to see the extent to which we internalize terms of propaganda
"ahem.. collateral, not intentional, damage"
these weeks have been an abject display of the folly baked into people. truly madness
posted by elkevelvet at 1:31 PM on December 7, 2023
"ahem.. collateral, not intentional, damage"
these weeks have been an abject display of the folly baked into people. truly madness
posted by elkevelvet at 1:31 PM on December 7, 2023
The IDF knew Israeli citizens were present and proceeded to open fire anyways.
Well, yes. The reason they were opening fire is that their citizens were being slaughtered by terrorists.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:42 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, yes. The reason they were opening fire is that their citizens were being slaughtered by terrorists.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:42 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
during the second world war when my uncle was captured by the luftwaffe, he was sent to POW camp that traveled through Berlin. The night they arrived in Berlin there was a heavy bombing campaign, fire everywhere and as the pows were exiting the train, British fighters straffed their position wounding two pows.
This is collateral damage. it didn't help that the luftwaffe put a Red Cross flag on top of their 40 and 8. it was the first RAF fighter that strafed, the second one flew off precisely because everyone was running away from the Train.
posted by clavdivs at 1:45 PM on December 7, 2023
This is collateral damage. it didn't help that the luftwaffe put a Red Cross flag on top of their 40 and 8. it was the first RAF fighter that strafed, the second one flew off precisely because everyone was running away from the Train.
posted by clavdivs at 1:45 PM on December 7, 2023
NPR's "On Point" had an episode today on Biden's approach to Israel. The guests discuss Biden's approach to Israel and if it is working or failing. In the view of the show Biden's strong public support for Israel is a gambit to extract concessions from Israel and in that way it differs from Obama and other traditional democratic approaches to Israel.
Meanwhile more than 500 professionals at a number of prominent Jewish Organizations in the US have signed an open letter to President Biden asking for a ceasefire in Gaza.
In the letter they state: "We know there is no military solution to this crisis."
posted by interogative mood at 2:47 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile more than 500 professionals at a number of prominent Jewish Organizations in the US have signed an open letter to President Biden asking for a ceasefire in Gaza.
In the letter they state: "We know there is no military solution to this crisis."
posted by interogative mood at 2:47 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Remember, there are no firearm "accidents". Someone intentionally pulled the trigger, and they are personally responsible for where each and every round they fire lands. There are four rules of firearm safety:
#1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded. ...
#2. Never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to kill or destroy. ...
#3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. ...
#4. Be certain of your target and what is around and behind it.
posted by mikelieman at 4:27 PM on December 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
#1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded. ...
#2. Never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to kill or destroy. ...
#3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. ...
#4. Be certain of your target and what is around and behind it.
posted by mikelieman at 4:27 PM on December 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, yes. The reason they were opening fire is that their citizens were being slaughtered by terrorists.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some
This reminds me that i did listen to this translated excerpt of the Haaretz podcast. It's hosted on the Electronic Intifada channel so the title is very confronting, but just listening to what this colonel was saying, and he's saying it in establishment language while being critical, the length of time and confusion caused by no real way to communicate and lead between the units was a significant factor - they missed the main rush, arriving hours later (helis arrived much earlier but no one could coordinate them), and couldn't determine who's a combatant so if at all the Hannibal doctrine was employed (raised in the podcast), it was the first time they did it that way which added to the confusion. They don't actually know who they were aiming at.
Which in the last two months, seems par of the course.
posted by cendawanita at 5:20 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some
This reminds me that i did listen to this translated excerpt of the Haaretz podcast. It's hosted on the Electronic Intifada channel so the title is very confronting, but just listening to what this colonel was saying, and he's saying it in establishment language while being critical, the length of time and confusion caused by no real way to communicate and lead between the units was a significant factor - they missed the main rush, arriving hours later (helis arrived much earlier but no one could coordinate them), and couldn't determine who's a combatant so if at all the Hannibal doctrine was employed (raised in the podcast), it was the first time they did it that way which added to the confusion. They don't actually know who they were aiming at.
Which in the last two months, seems par of the course.
posted by cendawanita at 5:20 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The IDF is literally a genocidal organization so any story about the helicopter and shooting their own people is completely plausible. I really don’t know how we’ll ever know the truth.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:43 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:43 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think we have now gotten to “it did happen, but with an asterisk”.
posted by Artw at 6:57 PM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:57 PM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some pro-Zionist group funded a plane to fly over Harvard with a "Harvard hates Jews" banner and a Palestinian flag, bizarrely
NYU student suspended for tearing down hostage posters
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:19 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
NYU student suspended for tearing down hostage posters
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:19 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
BBC liveblog: UN Security Council to vote on ceasefire resolution
Mouin Rabbani's thread (this time with @hasmikegian) that seems to know what it's talking about about the timing of the resolution and potential significance:
The sequence of events is not definitively clear but appears to have developed as follows: earlier this week the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the only Arab current member of the Security Council, and acting on behalf of the Arab Group (Arab member states of the UN) and states affiliated with the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), indicated its intention to submit a draft resolution to the Council calling for a ceasefire in the Gaza Strip.
Given Washington’s consistent opposition to a ceasefire resolution, it appears that a coalition of Arab and other states, including some Security Council members, called upon Guterres to act.
When considering their messages, he would have been further motivated to act by additional, alarming messages arriving from within the UN. Of particular note are those of Martin Griffiths, the UN’s Under-Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator,
who has been the most direct and outspoken UN official during this crisis about the impact of Israel’s onslaught on the Gaza Strip. Together, these developments may have forced Guterres’s hand.
On 6 December Guterres issued his letter invoking Article 99. Shortly thereafter the UAE released its draft resolution, now explicitly presented as one “taking note and acting upon” the Secretary-General’s position.
It is unclear whether UAE would have gone ahead and introduced a draft UNSC resolution absent Guterres’s letter, given the strength of US opposition. It is therefore entirely possible that it took a final decision to do so only after the UN Secretary-General issued his letter.
US Deputy Permanent Representative to the UN Robert Wood emphasized that Guterres’s letter changes nothing and that Washington continues to oppose a ceasefire and for that matter further Security Council consideration of the crisis.
The US, together with the UK, did attempt to have the term “immediate humanitarian ceasefire” amended to either “humanitarian pauses” or “another urgent humanitarian pause”. But this, together with their attempt to have the resolution focus on condemnation of Hamas, was rejected by the UAE, the draft resolution’s author. Israeli foreign minister Eli Cohen was less diplomatic, and accused Guterres of “endorsing Hamas terror” and acting in support of the Palestinian movement.
While a veto of the resolution by the US and perhaps the UK as well seems a foregone conclusion, Guterres’s letter is nevertheless significant.
Future historians are likely to identify it as accelerating the countdown to the end of Israel’s onslaught against the Gaza Strip and its Palestinian population.
Regarding the US role, some have speculated that Washington may be using the negotiations surrounding this draft resolution to influence Israel’s conduct of the war, which is isolating the Biden administration on the world stage.
Some have gone even further and suggested that if Israel’s response to Washington’s concerns is excessively rude and dismissive, the US may even consider abstaining. As noted, this is speculation.
Can read that with:
- (HuffPo) U.S. Officials Privately Raise Fears Of Israel-Gaza Conflict Sparking A Broader War - Officials are worried Israel is seeking U.S. weapons for a war in Lebanon, and analysts say an uptick in attacks tied to Iran risks ensnaring the U.S. in a major conflict.
(Mind you, shelling and strikes in Lebanon have been continuing in the last two months)
- (Jordan News) America sets a deadline for Israel to end the war on Gaza
News:
- The Israelis grappling with helping sick Palestinians - In the immediate aftermath of 7 October, Yael says she was so shaken that she could barely breathe.
"Something was broken in my heart and I said that I would never talk to people in Gaza again," she tells me.
But after a few days, she decided that she couldn't allow the atrocities to change her.
She and most of the Road to Recovery volunteers have continued to drive Palestinians from the West Bank to hospitals in Israel for cancer treatment, organ transplants and kidney dialysis. As soon as she can, she says she'll go and collect patients from Gaza again.
- Israel arrests, abuses dozens of Palestinian civilians at UNRWA-run schools in northern Gaza. Additionally by Ramy Abdu:
Among those taken hostage today in Beit Lahia are:
-Khalil Hashem Al-Kahlot, 65,
- Rafiq Ahmad Al-Kahlot, 60,
- Muhammad Ismail Al-Kahlot, 57
- Darwish Gharbawy, @unrwa School director, 48
- Ahmed Akram Lubad, 56, @UN staff
In addition to the children
-Muhammad Hamza Al-Kahlot, 15 years old.
- Youssef Khaled Lubad, 15 years old
He also reported: 🚨 Important information on Refaat’s assassination:
The day before yesterday, Refaat received a phone call from the Israeli intelligence about locating him in the school where he took refuge. They informed him that they were going to kill him. He left the school not wanting to endanger the others, and at 6 p.m. his sister's apartment was bombed, where he was killed, his sister and her four children
- IDF instructions on Gaza refuge zones cruel ‘mirage’, say aid agencies
- Israeli sectors continue to struggle as war in Gaza continues for 2nd month
- (Reuters) Hamas says it repelled Israeli rescue attempt in Gaza, hostage killed
Editorials, Opinions, etc:
Gideon Levy: Israel Is Fostering the Next Generation of Hatred Against Itself (archive)
Craig Murray: Stopping Genocide
Noah Lanard: The Dangerous History Behind Netanyahu’s Amalek Rhetoric
posted by cendawanita at 7:16 AM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Mouin Rabbani's thread (this time with @hasmikegian) that seems to know what it's talking about about the timing of the resolution and potential significance:
The sequence of events is not definitively clear but appears to have developed as follows: earlier this week the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the only Arab current member of the Security Council, and acting on behalf of the Arab Group (Arab member states of the UN) and states affiliated with the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), indicated its intention to submit a draft resolution to the Council calling for a ceasefire in the Gaza Strip.
Given Washington’s consistent opposition to a ceasefire resolution, it appears that a coalition of Arab and other states, including some Security Council members, called upon Guterres to act.
When considering their messages, he would have been further motivated to act by additional, alarming messages arriving from within the UN. Of particular note are those of Martin Griffiths, the UN’s Under-Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator,
who has been the most direct and outspoken UN official during this crisis about the impact of Israel’s onslaught on the Gaza Strip. Together, these developments may have forced Guterres’s hand.
On 6 December Guterres issued his letter invoking Article 99. Shortly thereafter the UAE released its draft resolution, now explicitly presented as one “taking note and acting upon” the Secretary-General’s position.
It is unclear whether UAE would have gone ahead and introduced a draft UNSC resolution absent Guterres’s letter, given the strength of US opposition. It is therefore entirely possible that it took a final decision to do so only after the UN Secretary-General issued his letter.
US Deputy Permanent Representative to the UN Robert Wood emphasized that Guterres’s letter changes nothing and that Washington continues to oppose a ceasefire and for that matter further Security Council consideration of the crisis.
The US, together with the UK, did attempt to have the term “immediate humanitarian ceasefire” amended to either “humanitarian pauses” or “another urgent humanitarian pause”. But this, together with their attempt to have the resolution focus on condemnation of Hamas, was rejected by the UAE, the draft resolution’s author. Israeli foreign minister Eli Cohen was less diplomatic, and accused Guterres of “endorsing Hamas terror” and acting in support of the Palestinian movement.
While a veto of the resolution by the US and perhaps the UK as well seems a foregone conclusion, Guterres’s letter is nevertheless significant.
Future historians are likely to identify it as accelerating the countdown to the end of Israel’s onslaught against the Gaza Strip and its Palestinian population.
Regarding the US role, some have speculated that Washington may be using the negotiations surrounding this draft resolution to influence Israel’s conduct of the war, which is isolating the Biden administration on the world stage.
Some have gone even further and suggested that if Israel’s response to Washington’s concerns is excessively rude and dismissive, the US may even consider abstaining. As noted, this is speculation.
Can read that with:
- (HuffPo) U.S. Officials Privately Raise Fears Of Israel-Gaza Conflict Sparking A Broader War - Officials are worried Israel is seeking U.S. weapons for a war in Lebanon, and analysts say an uptick in attacks tied to Iran risks ensnaring the U.S. in a major conflict.
(Mind you, shelling and strikes in Lebanon have been continuing in the last two months)
- (Jordan News) America sets a deadline for Israel to end the war on Gaza
News:
- The Israelis grappling with helping sick Palestinians - In the immediate aftermath of 7 October, Yael says she was so shaken that she could barely breathe.
"Something was broken in my heart and I said that I would never talk to people in Gaza again," she tells me.
But after a few days, she decided that she couldn't allow the atrocities to change her.
She and most of the Road to Recovery volunteers have continued to drive Palestinians from the West Bank to hospitals in Israel for cancer treatment, organ transplants and kidney dialysis. As soon as she can, she says she'll go and collect patients from Gaza again.
- Israel arrests, abuses dozens of Palestinian civilians at UNRWA-run schools in northern Gaza. Additionally by Ramy Abdu:
Among those taken hostage today in Beit Lahia are:
-Khalil Hashem Al-Kahlot, 65,
- Rafiq Ahmad Al-Kahlot, 60,
- Muhammad Ismail Al-Kahlot, 57
- Darwish Gharbawy, @unrwa School director, 48
- Ahmed Akram Lubad, 56, @UN staff
In addition to the children
-Muhammad Hamza Al-Kahlot, 15 years old.
- Youssef Khaled Lubad, 15 years old
He also reported: 🚨 Important information on Refaat’s assassination:
The day before yesterday, Refaat received a phone call from the Israeli intelligence about locating him in the school where he took refuge. They informed him that they were going to kill him. He left the school not wanting to endanger the others, and at 6 p.m. his sister's apartment was bombed, where he was killed, his sister and her four children
- IDF instructions on Gaza refuge zones cruel ‘mirage’, say aid agencies
- Israeli sectors continue to struggle as war in Gaza continues for 2nd month
- (Reuters) Hamas says it repelled Israeli rescue attempt in Gaza, hostage killed
Editorials, Opinions, etc:
Gideon Levy: Israel Is Fostering the Next Generation of Hatred Against Itself (archive)
Craig Murray: Stopping Genocide
Noah Lanard: The Dangerous History Behind Netanyahu’s Amalek Rhetoric
posted by cendawanita at 7:16 AM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
“The Future of Warfare Is Happening In Gaza,” Spencer Ackerman, Forever Wars, 06 December 2023
Gaza is not just a (war-) crime scene, it's an AI laboratory. And it's clarifying that the point of AI-enabled war isn't precision—it's scale.posted by ob1quixote at 7:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
I appreciate ob1quixote's post
some of us have the current luxury of observing this conflict from a distance, whatever our strong opinions happen to be. this is coming. particularly in N. America, a lot of people seem to think terrible things happen elsewhere.
if ever there was a time for collective effort to say: Enough. We need to find different ways to handle this
posted by elkevelvet at 7:58 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
some of us have the current luxury of observing this conflict from a distance, whatever our strong opinions happen to be. this is coming. particularly in N. America, a lot of people seem to think terrible things happen elsewhere.
if ever there was a time for collective effort to say: Enough. We need to find different ways to handle this
posted by elkevelvet at 7:58 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm still puzzled by this idea that Israel is operating on a strict timetable.
It may very well be true that Israel can't sustain a high intensity bombing campaign for much longer, if only for economic reasons, but why wouldn't Israel continue a less bomb oriented approach?
The "standard model" militaries have adopted in the futile hope of finding a way to stop a guerrilla movement with popular backing only calls for this sort of large scale bombing to continue for a relatively short time. Israel is about on schedule to shift into the "filtration" phase, and we've seen some indications that they're starting to do this already.
Filtration is the core of the standard model. It has never worked, and Israel's leadership isn't stupid so they know that. I think they think they have a factor working in their favor that other anti-guerrilla efforts didn't have: displacement.
A guerrilla movement with popular support can't be stopped by conventional military force short of genocide. But it looks like Israel believes they can append "or forcible relocation" to that.
Filtration is an especially cruel and brutal process. The theory is that the occupying force captures every person in a given area, separates the guerrillas/insurgents/terrorists/whatever from the civilians, then kills or imprisons the guerrillas while getting firm ID on the civilians and keeping them restricted to safe zones.
In practice what this has meant is subjecting the entire population in the filtration area to rape and/or torture, after all you can't just ask someone if they're a guerrilla and take their word for it. During the Russian genocide in Chechnya it is estimated that at least 1/3 of the total Chechnyan popultion was raped and/or tortured by Russian occupying forces.
FIltration has never worked, and can never work.
But Israel doesn't, actually, want to rule over Palestinians like Russia wants to rule over Chechnyans. Israel wants to take all the Palestinian land and doesn't particularly care about the Palestinian population one way or the other.
It doesn't take a high intensity bombing campaign to fracture Gaza into easily digestable chunks and begin a brutal filtration process in order to pressure the Gazan population to flee. Right now the obvious escape route is closed, Egypt says it will not allow Palestinians to cross the border into Egypt and has made statements strongly implying that the Egyptian military might kill any Palestinians who attempt to do so.
But Gaza is coastal, all Israel has to do is "accidentally" miss refugee evacuation ships. Where would the ships go? Israel doesn't care. It just wants the Palestinian population gone and is utterly indifferent to what happens to any Palestinian after they leave.
If the Israelis can drive Palestinians out of Gaza and into death at the hands of the Egyptian military that would also solve the problem from an Israeli standpoint, and might even be better than just letting the population flee in that then the world could be angry at Egypt for killing all those refugees and take some pressure off Israel.
None of that requires a high intensity bombing campaign. And none of it requires any sort of flashy attention grabbing newsworthy sort of action either. The worldwide media will be distracted by the next shiny object, surely there's a celebrity nipple somewhere to obsess over, and in that relative darkness Israel can use brutality in filtration to coerce a mass flight by the Gazan population.
Heck, they can even use the political pressure on them as an excuse. "We didn't want to set up brutal filtration points but the rest of the world wouldn't let us fight Hamas so we had no other choice."
if ever there was a time for collective effort to say: Enough. We need to find different ways to handle this
No nation on Earth is going to be party to coercing Israel into ending its genocideal plan. Because doing so would violate the concept of national sovregnity that all the other nations depend on so they can commit their own attrocities.
Even ignoring the part where the Israeli govenrment is adept at weaponizing false claims of antisemitism to disrupt critical organizations and silence individual critics, the world NEVER comes together to say enough.
Has the world told China it can't genocide the Uyghur population in Xinjiang?
Did the world unite and tell Russia it couldn't commit genocide in Chechnya?
Did the world get together and stop the genocide in Rwanda?
The world never does, becuase that would involve forming a trans-national ruling body that uses military force to invade, occupy, and control nations that refuse to abide by the rules set by that body. And the only countries that have the military force to even consider pulling that off won't because then they couldn't commit their own evils.
posted by sotonohito at 8:29 AM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
It may very well be true that Israel can't sustain a high intensity bombing campaign for much longer, if only for economic reasons, but why wouldn't Israel continue a less bomb oriented approach?
The "standard model" militaries have adopted in the futile hope of finding a way to stop a guerrilla movement with popular backing only calls for this sort of large scale bombing to continue for a relatively short time. Israel is about on schedule to shift into the "filtration" phase, and we've seen some indications that they're starting to do this already.
Filtration is the core of the standard model. It has never worked, and Israel's leadership isn't stupid so they know that. I think they think they have a factor working in their favor that other anti-guerrilla efforts didn't have: displacement.
A guerrilla movement with popular support can't be stopped by conventional military force short of genocide. But it looks like Israel believes they can append "or forcible relocation" to that.
Filtration is an especially cruel and brutal process. The theory is that the occupying force captures every person in a given area, separates the guerrillas/insurgents/terrorists/whatever from the civilians, then kills or imprisons the guerrillas while getting firm ID on the civilians and keeping them restricted to safe zones.
In practice what this has meant is subjecting the entire population in the filtration area to rape and/or torture, after all you can't just ask someone if they're a guerrilla and take their word for it. During the Russian genocide in Chechnya it is estimated that at least 1/3 of the total Chechnyan popultion was raped and/or tortured by Russian occupying forces.
FIltration has never worked, and can never work.
But Israel doesn't, actually, want to rule over Palestinians like Russia wants to rule over Chechnyans. Israel wants to take all the Palestinian land and doesn't particularly care about the Palestinian population one way or the other.
It doesn't take a high intensity bombing campaign to fracture Gaza into easily digestable chunks and begin a brutal filtration process in order to pressure the Gazan population to flee. Right now the obvious escape route is closed, Egypt says it will not allow Palestinians to cross the border into Egypt and has made statements strongly implying that the Egyptian military might kill any Palestinians who attempt to do so.
But Gaza is coastal, all Israel has to do is "accidentally" miss refugee evacuation ships. Where would the ships go? Israel doesn't care. It just wants the Palestinian population gone and is utterly indifferent to what happens to any Palestinian after they leave.
If the Israelis can drive Palestinians out of Gaza and into death at the hands of the Egyptian military that would also solve the problem from an Israeli standpoint, and might even be better than just letting the population flee in that then the world could be angry at Egypt for killing all those refugees and take some pressure off Israel.
None of that requires a high intensity bombing campaign. And none of it requires any sort of flashy attention grabbing newsworthy sort of action either. The worldwide media will be distracted by the next shiny object, surely there's a celebrity nipple somewhere to obsess over, and in that relative darkness Israel can use brutality in filtration to coerce a mass flight by the Gazan population.
Heck, they can even use the political pressure on them as an excuse. "We didn't want to set up brutal filtration points but the rest of the world wouldn't let us fight Hamas so we had no other choice."
if ever there was a time for collective effort to say: Enough. We need to find different ways to handle this
No nation on Earth is going to be party to coercing Israel into ending its genocideal plan. Because doing so would violate the concept of national sovregnity that all the other nations depend on so they can commit their own attrocities.
Even ignoring the part where the Israeli govenrment is adept at weaponizing false claims of antisemitism to disrupt critical organizations and silence individual critics, the world NEVER comes together to say enough.
Has the world told China it can't genocide the Uyghur population in Xinjiang?
Did the world unite and tell Russia it couldn't commit genocide in Chechnya?
Did the world get together and stop the genocide in Rwanda?
The world never does, becuase that would involve forming a trans-national ruling body that uses military force to invade, occupy, and control nations that refuse to abide by the rules set by that body. And the only countries that have the military force to even consider pulling that off won't because then they couldn't commit their own evils.
posted by sotonohito at 8:29 AM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
There is (or was) a time constraint on the ferocious bombing; a window where the maximum damage can be done, while there's shock and sympathy, and world still struggles with the new situation. Wait too long, and world opinion would be more aligned against such a magnitude of response.
And few things encourage emigration like not having shelter or possessions to go home to.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:50 AM on December 8, 2023
And few things encourage emigration like not having shelter or possessions to go home to.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:50 AM on December 8, 2023
Gaza society ‘on brink of full-blown collapse’, says UN official
Philippe Lazzarini, commissioner-general of UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency), the main UN agency in Gaza, said it was “the darkest hour” in the organisation’s history......
“We are still distributing food, even though the corridors and courtyards of our premises are too crowded to walk through. Our staff take their children to work, so they know they are safe or can die together.”
More than 130 UNRWA employees had been killed in the past two months of war, and 70% of staff were displaced and lacking food, water and adequate shelter, he said.
“We are hanging on by our fingertips. If UNRWA collapses, humanitarian assistance in Gaza will also collapse.”
In overcrowded and unsanitary shelters, “more than 700 people use a single toilet, women give birth (an average of 25 per day) and people nurse open wounds. Tens of thousands sleep in courtyards and streets. People burn plastic to stay warm.”
He added: “In my 35 years of working in complex emergencies, I have never written such a letter – predicting the killing of my staff and the collapse of the mandate I am expected to fulfil.”
posted by lalochezia at 10:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
The idea that doves in the U.S. are going to drive Israeli policy is silly. There is certainly some desire, perhaps even a necessity given relationships with the Gulf royals, for senior Biden Administration officials to sound dovish, but when Elise Stefanik is setting up the Presidents of Penn, Harvard and MIT to be fired at one end of the House of Representatives and Jamaal Bowman is being set up to lose his primary 60-40 at another, it's clear where things are really at.
Also, the idea that Israel is "losing" the war in some long term sense is just misplaced. There is no (new) jeopardy to Israel's access to international trade. There is no real objection to the long-term security arrangements which are likely to come into place in Gaza at the end of the combat phase, which will (essentially) be the same as have been in place in the West Bank for the better part of 30 years. While some Israeli right-wingers have said some unhinged things, there's zero intent in the Israeli establishment to move the Gaza population to Egypt, re-establish settlements in Gaza, or to have Israeli officials take responsibility for civil administration in Gaza.
posted by MattD at 10:44 AM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, the idea that Israel is "losing" the war in some long term sense is just misplaced. There is no (new) jeopardy to Israel's access to international trade. There is no real objection to the long-term security arrangements which are likely to come into place in Gaza at the end of the combat phase, which will (essentially) be the same as have been in place in the West Bank for the better part of 30 years. While some Israeli right-wingers have said some unhinged things, there's zero intent in the Israeli establishment to move the Gaza population to Egypt, re-establish settlements in Gaza, or to have Israeli officials take responsibility for civil administration in Gaza.
posted by MattD at 10:44 AM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
it's clear where things are really at.
you confuse is for ought. can there be enough pressure to move where "things are at"? that is ALWAYS the question in international affairs.
there's zero intent in the Israeli establishment to move the Gaza population to Egypt, re-establish settlements in Gaza, or to have Israeli officials take responsibility for civil administration in Gaza.
so ashes and death in a bombed open air prison it is then.
how the fuck do 1.9million people (or, probably less by the time this is done) live in rubble? how will they rebuild?
posted by lalochezia at 11:13 AM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
you confuse is for ought. can there be enough pressure to move where "things are at"? that is ALWAYS the question in international affairs.
there's zero intent in the Israeli establishment to move the Gaza population to Egypt, re-establish settlements in Gaza, or to have Israeli officials take responsibility for civil administration in Gaza.
so ashes and death in a bombed open air prison it is then.
how the fuck do 1.9million people (or, probably less by the time this is done) live in rubble? how will they rebuild?
posted by lalochezia at 11:13 AM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israel claims that most of the men who were detained in photos circulated online were members of Hamas who surrendered.
There are also reports of a deal to open the Kerem Shalom crossing for aid shipments.
posted by interogative mood at 12:22 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are also reports of a deal to open the Kerem Shalom crossing for aid shipments.
posted by interogative mood at 12:22 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israel claims that most of the men who were detained in photos circulated online were members of Hamas who surrendered.
Of course the IDF---the organization current committing a genocide---is going to say that the people they are rounding up and stripping naked are bad guys. I mean what is even the point of regurgitating this? We know for a fact a journalist was within that group.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:58 PM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
Of course the IDF---the organization current committing a genocide---is going to say that the people they are rounding up and stripping naked are bad guys. I mean what is even the point of regurgitating this? We know for a fact a journalist was within that group.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:58 PM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
Of course Hamas — an organization chartered to commit genocide — includes journalists as members and also recruits child soldiers — even using children as suicide bombers. People can be more than one thing. Would you prefer that the IDF shoot them or is it better they are taken prisoner?
posted by interogative mood at 1:14 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 1:14 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Are you saying that Diaa Al-Kahlot, chief of Al-Arabi Al-Jadeed newspaper in Gaza is a Hamas terrorist? He was captured and stripped naked.
Also LOL that 'chartered to commit genocide' is somehow equivalent to 'actually committing genocide'
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:18 PM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also LOL that 'chartered to commit genocide' is somehow equivalent to 'actually committing genocide'
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:18 PM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
Of course the IDF is going to say, at least initially, that everyone in the videos (which I'm not sure were actually meant to be released) is Hamas. But it looks more like a regular "filtration" sort of thing where they rounded up all the military-age men in the neighborhood, strip them to both prevent explosives and also for intimidation, and then sort through them trying to identify the actual Hamas members vs the people who were just there and got rounded up. I can remember seeing similar photos by the US in Iraq, with a bunch of scared-looking guys sitting there in their underwear.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:26 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dip Flash at 1:26 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Of course Hamas — an organization chartered to commit genocide — includes journalists as members
Hamas was the government in Gaza, so if you were a nurse, a water-meter reader or a garbage-man in Gaza, you're also a genocidal terrorist?
posted by Artful Codger at 2:35 PM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hamas was the government in Gaza, so if you were a nurse, a water-meter reader or a garbage-man in Gaza, you're also a genocidal terrorist?
posted by Artful Codger at 2:35 PM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
it’s pretty clear at this point that the idf considers everyone in gaza, from 5 year old girls and foreign doctors to UN staff, hamas terrorists
posted by dis_integration at 2:51 PM on December 8, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 2:51 PM on December 8, 2023 [14 favorites]
Well, not that it matters overmuch but I think that's like saying, the Labor party is in power in Australia, but I'm not a Labor party member.
I'm still puzzled by this idea that Israel is operating on a strict timetable.
The link from Cendawanita "Israeli sectors continue to struggle as war in Gaza continues for 2nd month" says 350,000 Israeli workers have been called up to serve in the IDF. Add to that the 250,000 internally displaced people (say 100,000 in the workforce) in Israel who had to evacuate their homes on the border with Gaza and Lebanon amidst ongoing rocket fire and threat of invasion, out of a total 4 million workers. That's about 12% of the labor force taken out of work without warning. Add to that also the impact of about roughly 150,000 Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank who have had their work permits cancelled for security reasons.
There was the NYT podcast from Nancy Lebovitz that estimated 4 battalions (500 soldiers each) were assigned to guard the border with Gaza, if the Oct 7th attack was expected, to defend against it they would need 4 brigades (2000 soldiers each) on active duty.
posted by xdvesper at 3:41 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm still puzzled by this idea that Israel is operating on a strict timetable.
The link from Cendawanita "Israeli sectors continue to struggle as war in Gaza continues for 2nd month" says 350,000 Israeli workers have been called up to serve in the IDF. Add to that the 250,000 internally displaced people (say 100,000 in the workforce) in Israel who had to evacuate their homes on the border with Gaza and Lebanon amidst ongoing rocket fire and threat of invasion, out of a total 4 million workers. That's about 12% of the labor force taken out of work without warning. Add to that also the impact of about roughly 150,000 Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank who have had their work permits cancelled for security reasons.
There was the NYT podcast from Nancy Lebovitz that estimated 4 battalions (500 soldiers each) were assigned to guard the border with Gaza, if the Oct 7th attack was expected, to defend against it they would need 4 brigades (2000 soldiers each) on active duty.
posted by xdvesper at 3:41 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
If anyone is interested more in the history of "strategic" bombing (i.e. the idea that one can defeat an enemy with air power as the primary means), how people thought it would work, and why it doesn't work, ACOUP has you covered.
posted by agentofselection at 3:55 PM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by agentofselection at 3:55 PM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Reuters: US blocks UN Security Council demand for humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza
"Thirteen other members [of the 15 member Council] voted in favor of a brief draft resolution, put forward by the United Arab Emirates, while Britain abstained."
Blood on our hands.
posted by jedicus at 4:25 PM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
"Thirteen other members [of the 15 member Council] voted in favor of a brief draft resolution, put forward by the United Arab Emirates, while Britain abstained."
Blood on our hands.
posted by jedicus at 4:25 PM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israel wants to slay the monster next door, but with this lethal bombardment, it is feeding it
posted by lalochezia at 4:32 PM on December 8, 2023
posted by lalochezia at 4:32 PM on December 8, 2023
Blood on our hands.
Stopping the flow of free weapons to Israel is the only way. Turn off the tap and they have to listen to reason.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:41 PM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Stopping the flow of free weapons to Israel is the only way. Turn off the tap and they have to listen to reason.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:41 PM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Of course Hamas — an organization chartered to commit genocide — includes journalists as members and also recruits child soldiers — even using children as suicide bombers. People can be more than one thing. Would you prefer that the IDF shoot them or is it better they are taken prisoner?
posted by interogative mood at 4:14 PM on December 8 [1 favorite +] [⚑]
what's the opposite of eponysterical?
posted by nourishedbytime at 7:42 PM on December 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:14 PM on December 8 [1 favorite +] [⚑]
what's the opposite of eponysterical?
posted by nourishedbytime at 7:42 PM on December 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
If anyone is interested more in the history of "strategic" bombing (i.e. the idea that one can defeat an enemy with air power as the primary means), how people thought it would work, and why it doesn't work, ACOUP has you covered.
Well, Israel clearly isn't using strategic bombing, as per ACOUP this is operational or tactical bombing in support of a ground operation.
Devereaux does note that the biggest impact of allied strategic bombing was tying up the enemy resources - the Luftwaffe was "worn to a nub" defending against allied bombing raids, leaving them unable to deal with the advancing ground forces. So he says if you were trying to win the war, diverting resources to a strategic bombing campaign doesn't make much sense. However, if you have the aircraft and munitions available, using it to divert enemy resources makes a lot of sense because it vastly improves the odds of your ground operation succeeding.
Hamas' ability to launch another Oct 7th attack across the border (which they promised to do) is curtailed because they're forced to fight on their side of the border. Their ability to launch rockets into Israel is also being curtailed by continued bombing of launch sites, weapons storage, manufacture, and border crossings.
Devereaux doesn't argue that German industrial capability wasn't curtailed in WW2: he says he doesn't think that the diversion of vast resources towards bomber fleets was worth it. He notes military production in Germany tripled despite the effects of a strategic bombing campaign, as an indication of its ineffectiveness . But why not look at the United States as a control, where they went from producing 600 aircraft per month in 1940 to around 8,000 aircraft per month in 1944 - something they were able to do since neither the Japanese nor the Germans were able to harm their mainland. To put into context how ridiculous that rate of production was, the Luftwaffe never had more than 5,000 aircraft in service at one time.
posted by xdvesper at 10:15 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, Israel clearly isn't using strategic bombing, as per ACOUP this is operational or tactical bombing in support of a ground operation.
Devereaux does note that the biggest impact of allied strategic bombing was tying up the enemy resources - the Luftwaffe was "worn to a nub" defending against allied bombing raids, leaving them unable to deal with the advancing ground forces. So he says if you were trying to win the war, diverting resources to a strategic bombing campaign doesn't make much sense. However, if you have the aircraft and munitions available, using it to divert enemy resources makes a lot of sense because it vastly improves the odds of your ground operation succeeding.
Hamas' ability to launch another Oct 7th attack across the border (which they promised to do) is curtailed because they're forced to fight on their side of the border. Their ability to launch rockets into Israel is also being curtailed by continued bombing of launch sites, weapons storage, manufacture, and border crossings.
Devereaux doesn't argue that German industrial capability wasn't curtailed in WW2: he says he doesn't think that the diversion of vast resources towards bomber fleets was worth it. He notes military production in Germany tripled despite the effects of a strategic bombing campaign, as an indication of its ineffectiveness . But why not look at the United States as a control, where they went from producing 600 aircraft per month in 1940 to around 8,000 aircraft per month in 1944 - something they were able to do since neither the Japanese nor the Germans were able to harm their mainland. To put into context how ridiculous that rate of production was, the Luftwaffe never had more than 5,000 aircraft in service at one time.
posted by xdvesper at 10:15 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, Israel clearly isn't using strategic bombing, as per ACOUP this is operational or tactical bombing in support of a ground operation.
The IDF apparently thinks they're doing both:
The IDF apparently thinks they're doing both:
"The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it...posted by BungaDunga at 10:36 PM on December 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
according to sources who were involved in the compiling of power targets in previous wars, although the target file usually contains some kind of alleged association with Hamas or other militant groups, striking the target functions primarily as a “means that allows damage to civil society.” The sources understood, some explicitly and some implicitly, that damage to civilians is the real purpose of these attacks...
“The perception is that it really hurts Hamas when high-rise buildings are taken down, because it creates a public reaction in the Gaza Strip and scares the population,” said one of the sources. “They wanted to give the citizens of Gaza the feeling that Hamas is not in control of the situation. Sometimes they toppled buildings and sometimes postal service and government buildings.”"
and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
The Effects of Strategic Bombing in WWII on German Morale.
•"Bombing did not harden popular resolve against the US. The hate and anger it aroused was directed against the Nazi regime, not the Allies."
posted by clavdivs at 11:08 PM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Effects of Strategic Bombing in WWII on German Morale.
•"Bombing did not harden popular resolve against the US. The hate and anger it aroused was directed against the Nazi regime, not the Allies."
posted by clavdivs at 11:08 PM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
My timeline is pretty full of Jewish voices that feels very familiar to me from my end during the post-9/11 years - the only difference I guess is that amidst the casual and institutional Islamophobia I wasn't being made heartsick by the conflict between my morals and who I consider people who represent me (to a point).
posted by cendawanita at 11:29 PM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:29 PM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
> Well, Israel clearly isn't using strategic bombing, as per ACOUP this is operational or tactical bombing in support of a ground operation.
tactical bombing is limited, precise strikes to attack targets that you are basically looking right at (at a distance). Israel is currently conducting what might go down in history as the most extensive urban bombing campaign ever. They’re bombing everything that could be plausibly called a target. jesus christ they’re doing collective punishment bombing as the primary goal, neither strategic or tactical. they’re killing entire families of civilians every single day. i swear when i read comments like this it makes me feel completely insane that people can continuously draw from the well of unreality and make claims so divorced from the overwhelming evidence, so separated from what is so easy to see even if you’re only following the incredibly friendly reporting of outlets like the new york times. they’re bombing them into oblivion, there’s nothing fucking tactical about it.
posted by dis_integration at 6:13 AM on December 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
tactical bombing is limited, precise strikes to attack targets that you are basically looking right at (at a distance). Israel is currently conducting what might go down in history as the most extensive urban bombing campaign ever. They’re bombing everything that could be plausibly called a target. jesus christ they’re doing collective punishment bombing as the primary goal, neither strategic or tactical. they’re killing entire families of civilians every single day. i swear when i read comments like this it makes me feel completely insane that people can continuously draw from the well of unreality and make claims so divorced from the overwhelming evidence, so separated from what is so easy to see even if you’re only following the incredibly friendly reporting of outlets like the new york times. they’re bombing them into oblivion, there’s nothing fucking tactical about it.
posted by dis_integration at 6:13 AM on December 9, 2023 [18 favorites]
I just can't understand the strategic or moral argument for the US supplying weapons to Israel for the last X years, given that I generally don't think we should supply arms as a core policy. It's hard not to feel like the political and economic power of pro-Israel groups in the US is guiding this, which makes it easy for people with antisemitic tendencies to say "see, I told you so". There really *are* a strong pro-Israel forces in the US guiding this against the will of the majority of Americans and against our national interest. With all due respect for Americans with ties to Israel, this is a lot like letting Cuban expats dictate and push a hardline Cuba policy. Am I crazy to think that in both cases, people who are too close to the issue should recuse themselves? That's what we do in the legal system.
This latest UN vote is not only morally indefensible, but has two other huge problems:
1) Giving Israel everything in the name of future leverage has never worked. The current government goes out of its way to brag about leading us by the nose. If Israel didn't have the firepower, perhaps they'd be incented to pursue diplomacy or compromise with Palestine. Nothing Israel does reflects my personal moral values, and we get what out of it? Some shady cybersecurity and IT firms and a safe-ish way to visit the Middle East?
2) (much bigger for me as an American) US policy here has a real chance of handing the 2024 election to Trump. I suppose everyone angry at Biden over this might forget by next year or hold their noses and vote Biden (remember "never-Trumpers"?), but if even a few tens of thousands (!) of people in the right states abstain or vote for Liz Cheney or Cornel West or someone, we will be well and truly fucked. The impact of that to America, the world, and the climate is going to make Oct. 7 and/or the genocide in Gaza look like nothing.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:47 AM on December 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
This latest UN vote is not only morally indefensible, but has two other huge problems:
1) Giving Israel everything in the name of future leverage has never worked. The current government goes out of its way to brag about leading us by the nose. If Israel didn't have the firepower, perhaps they'd be incented to pursue diplomacy or compromise with Palestine. Nothing Israel does reflects my personal moral values, and we get what out of it? Some shady cybersecurity and IT firms and a safe-ish way to visit the Middle East?
2) (much bigger for me as an American) US policy here has a real chance of handing the 2024 election to Trump. I suppose everyone angry at Biden over this might forget by next year or hold their noses and vote Biden (remember "never-Trumpers"?), but if even a few tens of thousands (!) of people in the right states abstain or vote for Liz Cheney or Cornel West or someone, we will be well and truly fucked. The impact of that to America, the world, and the climate is going to make Oct. 7 and/or the genocide in Gaza look like nothing.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:47 AM on December 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
The US has brazenly wielded and weaponized its veto to strongarm the UN Security Council, further undermining its credibility and ability to live up to its mandate to maintain international peace and security.
Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General
"As a movement of over 10 million people, we urge everyone across the world to act now and press their governments to show that international law exists to protect everyone by ending this carnage via an enduring ceasefire. Restoring humanity is a pre-requisite to lay the foundation for a future grounded in the rights of all, and end to apartheid, and justice and reparation for victims.”
posted by adamvasco at 7:23 AM on December 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General
"As a movement of over 10 million people, we urge everyone across the world to act now and press their governments to show that international law exists to protect everyone by ending this carnage via an enduring ceasefire. Restoring humanity is a pre-requisite to lay the foundation for a future grounded in the rights of all, and end to apartheid, and justice and reparation for victims.”
posted by adamvasco at 7:23 AM on December 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Am I crazy to think that in both cases, people who are too close to the issue should recuse themselves? That's what we do in the legal system.
Recusals are for when people have a direct stake in an outcome. It would be gross to say a gay judge can’t rule on a gay rights case, just like it would be gross to say that Jewish or Israeli or Palestinian or Arab Americans can’t try and shape US foreign policy.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:57 AM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Recusals are for when people have a direct stake in an outcome. It would be gross to say a gay judge can’t rule on a gay rights case, just like it would be gross to say that Jewish or Israeli or Palestinian or Arab Americans can’t try and shape US foreign policy.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:57 AM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Oddly enough, it was a female analyst who tried to bring attention to the plans, and a male superior who decided that the Gazans didn't have resources or the will to carry out the plans. Only a coincidence, I'm sure.
I get you're being sarcastic there, Nancy, but it really goes way beyond that. Almost the entire unit of "spotters" stationed along the Gaza border are young women, and *multiple* women among them tried reporting increased Hamas activity along the border for months before the 10/7 massacre, including one who saw a limo drive up with a Hamas leader who waved to the security cameras, which she was surprised to learn they knew the location of. Times of Israel wrote about this on Oct 26 (linked in one of the previous threads) and so did Ha'aretz: The Women Soldiers Who Warned of a Pending Hamas Attack – and Were Ignored (archive). The details in both of those links are so damning of IDF stupidity.
But even more so is this Ha'aretz article from Dec 2022 about the horrible conditions and disrespect the women in those spotter units have to endure; institutional sexism is just part of the problem:
The Female-only Israeli Army Role Leading Too Many to Suicide (archive)
Soldiers and commanders working in the military’s monitoring apparatus describe grueling conditions for soldiers in this role, leading to a considerable number of suicide attempts. The conditions, they said, result in part from sleep deprivation, shortages of food and services on their base, disrespectful treatment, and arbitrary, harsh punishment.
Seriously, that last link is a must-read.
posted by mediareport at 8:27 AM on December 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I get you're being sarcastic there, Nancy, but it really goes way beyond that. Almost the entire unit of "spotters" stationed along the Gaza border are young women, and *multiple* women among them tried reporting increased Hamas activity along the border for months before the 10/7 massacre, including one who saw a limo drive up with a Hamas leader who waved to the security cameras, which she was surprised to learn they knew the location of. Times of Israel wrote about this on Oct 26 (linked in one of the previous threads) and so did Ha'aretz: The Women Soldiers Who Warned of a Pending Hamas Attack – and Were Ignored (archive). The details in both of those links are so damning of IDF stupidity.
But even more so is this Ha'aretz article from Dec 2022 about the horrible conditions and disrespect the women in those spotter units have to endure; institutional sexism is just part of the problem:
The Female-only Israeli Army Role Leading Too Many to Suicide (archive)
Soldiers and commanders working in the military’s monitoring apparatus describe grueling conditions for soldiers in this role, leading to a considerable number of suicide attempts. The conditions, they said, result in part from sleep deprivation, shortages of food and services on their base, disrespectful treatment, and arbitrary, harsh punishment.
Seriously, that last link is a must-read.
posted by mediareport at 8:27 AM on December 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Posted yesterday: 6-minute clip of a Bloomberg audio interview with Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh (a minute of ads at the start and a minute at the end), in which they discuss next steps. Shtayyeh discusses overseeing a possible reconstruction with international help and says there was over $800 million worth of infrastructure projects already underway in Gaza before Oct 7th. "We never abandoned Gaza; we never left Gaza."
He also has thoughts about Netanyahu's stated goal of eradicating or eliminating Hamas; at 4:49 he says, "I don't think that's a possible goal to achieve, simply because Hamas is not in Gaza only. Hamas is in Lebanon, Hamas leadership, everybody knows, is in Qatar, they are here in the West Bank...what is needed is a situation in which Palestinian unity should be allowed to function..."
(Of course, Netanyahu's strategy of boosting Hamas over the past decade or so to keep the Palestinian people divided between the PA and Hamas has been well-documented in previous threads here, with links like A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance (archive) and many others.)
Shtayyeh talks about PA efforts to negotiate with Hamas but claims Hamas only wants things their own way - "Either their way or the highway," he says, "and it seems that we are on the highway." When asked what comes next with Hamas, he says "Hamas before October 7 is one thing, and Hamas after is another," adding Hamas needs to "accept the tools of struggle."
Here's more from the Times of Israel report on the conversation:
Shtayyeh refused to condemn the group when asked, saying that the conflict did not start when Hamas attacked. “What Israel is doing in Gaza is an act of revenge,” he said. “This is not going to take them anywhere.”
...A top adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas told The Times of Israel Tuesday that the PA leader has been condemning Hamas in “every call and meeting” with world leaders since the group’s shock attack on Israel, but won’t do so publicly while the war in Gaza is ongoing. “If Israel didn’t launch its aggression against Gaza, President Abbas would have publicly condemned Hamas repeatedly, but once the aggression began and has continued, asking him or any Palestinian leader to publicly condemn Hamas is nonsense,” Mahmoud Habbash said.
posted by mediareport at 9:15 AM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
He also has thoughts about Netanyahu's stated goal of eradicating or eliminating Hamas; at 4:49 he says, "I don't think that's a possible goal to achieve, simply because Hamas is not in Gaza only. Hamas is in Lebanon, Hamas leadership, everybody knows, is in Qatar, they are here in the West Bank...what is needed is a situation in which Palestinian unity should be allowed to function..."
(Of course, Netanyahu's strategy of boosting Hamas over the past decade or so to keep the Palestinian people divided between the PA and Hamas has been well-documented in previous threads here, with links like A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance (archive) and many others.)
Shtayyeh talks about PA efforts to negotiate with Hamas but claims Hamas only wants things their own way - "Either their way or the highway," he says, "and it seems that we are on the highway." When asked what comes next with Hamas, he says "Hamas before October 7 is one thing, and Hamas after is another," adding Hamas needs to "accept the tools of struggle."
Here's more from the Times of Israel report on the conversation:
Shtayyeh refused to condemn the group when asked, saying that the conflict did not start when Hamas attacked. “What Israel is doing in Gaza is an act of revenge,” he said. “This is not going to take them anywhere.”
...A top adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas told The Times of Israel Tuesday that the PA leader has been condemning Hamas in “every call and meeting” with world leaders since the group’s shock attack on Israel, but won’t do so publicly while the war in Gaza is ongoing. “If Israel didn’t launch its aggression against Gaza, President Abbas would have publicly condemned Hamas repeatedly, but once the aggression began and has continued, asking him or any Palestinian leader to publicly condemn Hamas is nonsense,” Mahmoud Habbash said.
posted by mediareport at 9:15 AM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Am I crazy to think that in both cases, people who are too close to the issue should recuse themselves? That's what we do in the legal system.
'The United States and Israel have signed multiple bilateral defense cooperation agreements, to include: a Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement (1952); a General Security of Information Agreement (1982); a Mutual Logistics Support Agreement (1991); and a Status of Forces Agreement (1994).'
posted by clavdivs at 12:45 PM on December 9, 2023
'The United States and Israel have signed multiple bilateral defense cooperation agreements, to include: a Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement (1952); a General Security of Information Agreement (1982); a Mutual Logistics Support Agreement (1991); and a Status of Forces Agreement (1994).'
posted by clavdivs at 12:45 PM on December 9, 2023
The impact of that to America, the world, and the climate is going to make Oct. 7 and/or the genocide in Gaza look like nothing.
Can we avoid phrasing like this please and efforts to refocus the discussion of an unfolding genocide to American electoral politics. For people who have family, friends or other connections to Palestine, being told that the genocide of their people is “nothing” compared to American politics is a grotesque thing to hear and it hurt my heart to read it. Gazans and their lives do matter and however remote they may feel to you, people with connections to Palestine may be reading your words.
posted by armadillo1224 at 12:58 PM on December 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Can we avoid phrasing like this please and efforts to refocus the discussion of an unfolding genocide to American electoral politics. For people who have family, friends or other connections to Palestine, being told that the genocide of their people is “nothing” compared to American politics is a grotesque thing to hear and it hurt my heart to read it. Gazans and their lives do matter and however remote they may feel to you, people with connections to Palestine may be reading your words.
posted by armadillo1224 at 12:58 PM on December 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Bombing did not harden popular resolve against the US. The hate and anger it aroused was directed against the Nazi regime, not the Allies.
No offense to the good people of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, but I'm going to take this with a grain of salt.
The U.S has just finished bombing the crap out of a country, occupied the country, and then conducts interviews of the bombed people asking "were you mad at us about the whole bombing thing?" Then the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey produces a report that says "They weren't mad at us, but at their leaders. Strategic Bombing definitely worked, and would have worked even better if we had done it more widely".
Like, really? This despite any wartime evidence in this, or any of the subsequent attempts at causing morale collapse through strategic bombing. As with death squads and droning "kill people until the survivors start liking you" does not work.
posted by agentofselection at 1:23 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
No offense to the good people of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, but I'm going to take this with a grain of salt.
The U.S has just finished bombing the crap out of a country, occupied the country, and then conducts interviews of the bombed people asking "were you mad at us about the whole bombing thing?" Then the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey produces a report that says "They weren't mad at us, but at their leaders. Strategic Bombing definitely worked, and would have worked even better if we had done it more widely".
Like, really? This despite any wartime evidence in this, or any of the subsequent attempts at causing morale collapse through strategic bombing. As with death squads and droning "kill people until the survivors start liking you" does not work.
posted by agentofselection at 1:23 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Reuters: US skips congressional review to approve emergency sale of tank shells to Israel
posted by jedicus at 1:46 PM on December 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Biden administration has used an emergency authority to allow the sale of about 14,000 tank shells to Israel without congressional review, the Pentagon said on Saturday.There's no pretense here: the IDF uses tank shells to murder civilians and journalists, and we eagerly send them more, without even the rubber stamp of congressional review.
The State Department on Friday used an Arms Export Control Act emergency declaration for the tank rounds worth $106.5 million for immediate delivery to Israel ...
Israel's Merkava tanks, which uses 120mm shells, are also linked to incidents that involved the death of journalists.
On Thursday, a Reuters investigation revealed that an Israeli tank crew killed Reuters journalist Issam Abdallah and wounded six reporters by firing two shells in quick succession from Israel while the journalists were filming cross-border shelling.
posted by jedicus at 1:46 PM on December 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Can Me Meyer
"The Berliners are stunned. They did not think it could happen. When this war began, Goring assured them it couldn’t. He boasted that no enemy planes could ever break through the outer and inner rings of the capital’s anti-aircraft defence. The Berliners are a naive and simple people. They believed him. Their disillusionment today therefore is all the greater. You have to see their faces to measure it."
-William Shirer.
posted by clavdivs at 2:25 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
"The Berliners are stunned. They did not think it could happen. When this war began, Goring assured them it couldn’t. He boasted that no enemy planes could ever break through the outer and inner rings of the capital’s anti-aircraft defence. The Berliners are a naive and simple people. They believed him. Their disillusionment today therefore is all the greater. You have to see their faces to measure it."
-William Shirer.
posted by clavdivs at 2:25 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's no pretense here: the IDF uses tank shells to murder civilians and journalists, and we eagerly send them more, without even the rubber stamp of congressional review.
I see what you mean. perhaps we could list the weapon/ cash suppliers to Hamas. I think it's only fair if we're going to bring us policy into this war to bring other countries policies into the war I see no reason why this should be a one-sided conversation.
posted by clavdivs at 2:30 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I see what you mean. perhaps we could list the weapon/ cash suppliers to Hamas. I think it's only fair if we're going to bring us policy into this war to bring other countries policies into the war I see no reason why this should be a one-sided conversation.
posted by clavdivs at 2:30 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
how is anyone still cowing about hamas in the light of what is looking to be an all time historic urban bombing campaign? are hamas’s weapons being supplied directly by the executive office of the most powerful military force in the history of the world? if not than i don’t see how it’s relevant, actually.
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:59 PM on December 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by nourishedbytime at 2:59 PM on December 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
Oh I whole heartedly agree, are the United States and Iran and a few other countries fully responsible for what Hamas and Israel does with those weapons?
I believe the United States and Israel have both expressed how military aid harms each side and if you look into Future weapons sales you we'll see that the United States has invested more in Israel producing its own weapons for the future rather than they rely on the United States weapons in the future.
I don't know what cowing to Hamas really means but if it's a form of condemnation I support that til the cows come home.
posted by clavdivs at 3:18 PM on December 9, 2023
I believe the United States and Israel have both expressed how military aid harms each side and if you look into Future weapons sales you we'll see that the United States has invested more in Israel producing its own weapons for the future rather than they rely on the United States weapons in the future.
I don't know what cowing to Hamas really means but if it's a form of condemnation I support that til the cows come home.
posted by clavdivs at 3:18 PM on December 9, 2023
"The Berliners are stunned...You have to see their faces to measure it."
That raid was August 25, 1940. I'm pretty sure the German people did not stop fighting that day. Obviously people don't like being terror-bombed, but it does not break their will to fight.
posted by agentofselection at 3:31 PM on December 9, 2023
That raid was August 25, 1940. I'm pretty sure the German people did not stop fighting that day. Obviously people don't like being terror-bombed, but it does not break their will to fight.
posted by agentofselection at 3:31 PM on December 9, 2023
i swear when i read comments like this it makes me feel completely insane
Don't worry dis_integration, the feeling is 100% mutual...
Words have meanings, and experts are experts for a reason. Devereaux and other historians define strategic vs tactical and operational bombing within a specific framework to enable common ground discussion. Sure we can all have our own personal opinions, and ideas about a different framework we would like to use.
And if you want to talk about "overwhelming evidence" - taking Hamas numbers at face value (17,000 deaths) and 20,000 targets struck since the start of the war brings us to a figure of less than 1 collateral death per target bombed, less if you consider IDF's statement of 5,000 Hamas fighters killed among that 17,000. Whereas if the IDF were performing strategic bombing or collective punishment they would just target high rise residential buildings in the middle of the night while people are sleeping and kill 300 people per bomb used. The IDF would have found it trivial to kill well over a million people in Gaza by now if it had genocide as its aim.
Actual strategic bombing would be like Operation Meetinghouse where a mere 1,500 tonnes of bombs killed 100,000 Japanese in a single night by leveraging secondary affects.
BungaDunga - while certain un-named "sources" within the IDF may think that, it doesn't negate the point Devereaux is making - he doesn't dispute that morale bombing can have different, sometimes unintended effects that helps secure victory. What he's saying is that strategic bombing alone can not win a war, and diverting huge resources towards it is foolish. Neither of which Israel is doing: they're using bombing to soften up the Hamas organization before moving ground forces in and as close air support for their ground troops, and doing so is efficient from a resource point of view because it allows them to carry out a ground war with less troops and less casualties than they would otherwise.
posted by xdvesper at 3:47 PM on December 9, 2023
Don't worry dis_integration, the feeling is 100% mutual...
Words have meanings, and experts are experts for a reason. Devereaux and other historians define strategic vs tactical and operational bombing within a specific framework to enable common ground discussion. Sure we can all have our own personal opinions, and ideas about a different framework we would like to use.
And if you want to talk about "overwhelming evidence" - taking Hamas numbers at face value (17,000 deaths) and 20,000 targets struck since the start of the war brings us to a figure of less than 1 collateral death per target bombed, less if you consider IDF's statement of 5,000 Hamas fighters killed among that 17,000. Whereas if the IDF were performing strategic bombing or collective punishment they would just target high rise residential buildings in the middle of the night while people are sleeping and kill 300 people per bomb used. The IDF would have found it trivial to kill well over a million people in Gaza by now if it had genocide as its aim.
Actual strategic bombing would be like Operation Meetinghouse where a mere 1,500 tonnes of bombs killed 100,000 Japanese in a single night by leveraging secondary affects.
BungaDunga - while certain un-named "sources" within the IDF may think that, it doesn't negate the point Devereaux is making - he doesn't dispute that morale bombing can have different, sometimes unintended effects that helps secure victory. What he's saying is that strategic bombing alone can not win a war, and diverting huge resources towards it is foolish. Neither of which Israel is doing: they're using bombing to soften up the Hamas organization before moving ground forces in and as close air support for their ground troops, and doing so is efficient from a resource point of view because it allows them to carry out a ground war with less troops and less casualties than they would otherwise.
posted by xdvesper at 3:47 PM on December 9, 2023
Making many the same points as people here have, the headline of this NY Times article sums up the current situation pretty succinctly: While Gazans Suffer, Hamas Reaps the Benefits:
“There is always going to be an advantage that an unconventional force will have, particularly if it is as ruthless as Hamas and doesn’t really care about the damage to the local civilians,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “Israel is going to be stuck in this unwinnable war, causing massive death and destruction.”
What exactly Israel can achieve remains an open question. But simply prosecuting the war can, over time, damage Israel’s economy and international standing, while encouraging a new generation of Palestinians to hate Israel — all benefits for Hamas.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:14 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
“There is always going to be an advantage that an unconventional force will have, particularly if it is as ruthless as Hamas and doesn’t really care about the damage to the local civilians,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “Israel is going to be stuck in this unwinnable war, causing massive death and destruction.”
What exactly Israel can achieve remains an open question. But simply prosecuting the war can, over time, damage Israel’s economy and international standing, while encouraging a new generation of Palestinians to hate Israel — all benefits for Hamas.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:14 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Words have meanings, and experts are experts for a reason.
Wow. That was incredibly condescending. Reports suggest that the percent of buildings damaged in two months of bombing Gaza is comparable to the damage delivered to German cities in two years of strategic bombing. Of course the IDF reports that their bombing is highly targeted and tactical, but if 80,000-100,000 buildings have been damaged, that's seems unlikely.
posted by agentofselection at 7:44 PM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Wow. That was incredibly condescending. Reports suggest that the percent of buildings damaged in two months of bombing Gaza is comparable to the damage delivered to German cities in two years of strategic bombing. Of course the IDF reports that their bombing is highly targeted and tactical, but if 80,000-100,000 buildings have been damaged, that's seems unlikely.
posted by agentofselection at 7:44 PM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
The IDF would have found it trivial to kill well over a million people in Gaza by now if it had genocide as its aim.
If you’re going to start your genocide apology/comment being all high and mighty and deferring to experts and harping about terminology, you better do your homework. I’m not going to do it for you, but here’s a hint: there is no currently accepted definition of genocide that requires the killing of every single member of a specific group.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:57 PM on December 9, 2023 [27 favorites]
If you’re going to start your genocide apology/comment being all high and mighty and deferring to experts and harping about terminology, you better do your homework. I’m not going to do it for you, but here’s a hint: there is no currently accepted definition of genocide that requires the killing of every single member of a specific group.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:57 PM on December 9, 2023 [27 favorites]
Even targeted air strikes by 500-2000lb bombs will blow out windows and cause some damage to nearby structures. There has also been a lot of ground combat with IEDs, tanks, artillery, rpgs, etc and about 15% of Hamas’ missiles have landed on Gaza. It is going to take a few years to rebuild when this is over.
posted by interogative mood at 8:19 PM on December 9, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 8:19 PM on December 9, 2023
Anders Puck Nielsen (Danish military academic, mostly posting about the Ukraine conflict) discusses Genocide - How many people must die before it's a genocide?. Its interesting that killing people is one of five; the others being bodily/mental harm, impossible living conditions, prevent childbirth, deport children. The UN definition from 1948 seems a little rules-lawyer-y but I guess that was very deliberate (must demonstrate intent & must be pinned on an individual).
posted by phigmov at 9:49 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by phigmov at 9:49 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Obviously people don't like being terror-bombed, but it does not break their will to fight.
Well, yeah. That's common knowledge. it's just a matter of the effectiveness of that ability to fight. The 'call me Meyer' situation is exactly what strategic bombing is supposed to achieve on a psychological level from civilians to the leadership. August 25th 1940.. to be fair really wasn't a terror bombing, it was letting Hitler know that he could be touched. and that worked look at the amount of War material that went into securing Hitler's person. the second World War and the development of weapons technology can be seen even to this day. rather than name all the weapons and their variants from radar to anti-radar to anti-missile from ship to ship, the V2,, kamikaze b17s which killed President John F Kennedy's older brother, I highly recommend the book Terrors and Marvels. for example the Americans were using the azon television guided missile in combat. "in one test of the azon, an engineer was horrified to see his own image on the target monitor, indicating the missiles about to blow him up; it barely missed."
imagine that split second, the realization a robot bomb coming right at you and it's 1943. Shactman also points out the bombing of Hamburg. the area a little larger than the size of Manhattan was totally engulfed in flames, underground shelters had air sucked out of them suffocating inhabitants, over 45,000 people were killed. "it was no wonder that the British dubbed the bombing of Hamburg the first phase of operation Gomorrah. It was terror bombing of the sort that the allied civilians, scientists, and even military professionals had decried when Germany had done it in the past. whatever scruples British and American Military planners had once professed about terror bombing seen now to have been suppressed"
which brings us to the vengeance weapons.
after the bombing of Dresden, "Goebbels is reported to have wept with rage for twenty minutes after he heard the news of the catastrophe, before launching into a bitter attack on Hermann Göring, the commander of the Luftwaffe: "If I had the power I would drag this cowardly good-for-nothing, this Reich marshal, before a court. ... How much guilt does this parasite not bear for all this, which we owe to his indolence and love of his own comforts.""
one of the most disturbingly short-lived aspects of fascism is its ability to redirect criticism and attack towards its main objective.
August 25th 1944, 4 years after the initial bombing that Shrirer reported. Miy uncle flew over Paris that day in a B-17, Pariswas just liberated. he was on his fourth mission when he was shot down when he reached the ground it was civilians that rounded them up and started to summarily execute them until the Luftwaffee showed up and saved his life. of course the civilians hated the American bombers but they feared the Liftwaffe even more. and it really is about fear isn't it. my uncle defied the interrogators they were softies anyways, he endured the beatings, the strafings, the train rides, the dog bites, malnutrition, disease, regimentation, loss of rights, fear of death and when the Russians liberated him, he went two miles down the road and saw a sub camp of ravensbruck.
he never a spoke about that. said, he was lucky.
History is not going to give moral compass in this conflagration, only parallels of disaster with data trying to ascribe blame.
posted by clavdivs at 10:04 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, yeah. That's common knowledge. it's just a matter of the effectiveness of that ability to fight. The 'call me Meyer' situation is exactly what strategic bombing is supposed to achieve on a psychological level from civilians to the leadership. August 25th 1940.. to be fair really wasn't a terror bombing, it was letting Hitler know that he could be touched. and that worked look at the amount of War material that went into securing Hitler's person. the second World War and the development of weapons technology can be seen even to this day. rather than name all the weapons and their variants from radar to anti-radar to anti-missile from ship to ship, the V2,, kamikaze b17s which killed President John F Kennedy's older brother, I highly recommend the book Terrors and Marvels. for example the Americans were using the azon television guided missile in combat. "in one test of the azon, an engineer was horrified to see his own image on the target monitor, indicating the missiles about to blow him up; it barely missed."
imagine that split second, the realization a robot bomb coming right at you and it's 1943. Shactman also points out the bombing of Hamburg. the area a little larger than the size of Manhattan was totally engulfed in flames, underground shelters had air sucked out of them suffocating inhabitants, over 45,000 people were killed. "it was no wonder that the British dubbed the bombing of Hamburg the first phase of operation Gomorrah. It was terror bombing of the sort that the allied civilians, scientists, and even military professionals had decried when Germany had done it in the past. whatever scruples British and American Military planners had once professed about terror bombing seen now to have been suppressed"
which brings us to the vengeance weapons.
after the bombing of Dresden, "Goebbels is reported to have wept with rage for twenty minutes after he heard the news of the catastrophe, before launching into a bitter attack on Hermann Göring, the commander of the Luftwaffe: "If I had the power I would drag this cowardly good-for-nothing, this Reich marshal, before a court. ... How much guilt does this parasite not bear for all this, which we owe to his indolence and love of his own comforts.""
one of the most disturbingly short-lived aspects of fascism is its ability to redirect criticism and attack towards its main objective.
August 25th 1944, 4 years after the initial bombing that Shrirer reported. Miy uncle flew over Paris that day in a B-17, Pariswas just liberated. he was on his fourth mission when he was shot down when he reached the ground it was civilians that rounded them up and started to summarily execute them until the Luftwaffee showed up and saved his life. of course the civilians hated the American bombers but they feared the Liftwaffe even more. and it really is about fear isn't it. my uncle defied the interrogators they were softies anyways, he endured the beatings, the strafings, the train rides, the dog bites, malnutrition, disease, regimentation, loss of rights, fear of death and when the Russians liberated him, he went two miles down the road and saw a sub camp of ravensbruck.
he never a spoke about that. said, he was lucky.
History is not going to give moral compass in this conflagration, only parallels of disaster with data trying to ascribe blame.
posted by clavdivs at 10:04 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
NYT finally gets around today to a key issue it says has been "widely known and discussed in the Israeli news media for years" - namely, Netanyahu's strategy of containing Hamas by allowing payments to flow to the group from Qatar through Israel:
‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas (archive)
It links early on to this Politico EU piece from the time of the temporary truce, Netanyahu: Don’t accuse me of boosting Hamas with Qatari money, which quotes former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert:
“In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas,” he previously told POLITICO. “Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza.”
Some of the framing in the new NYT piece seemed a bit too forgiving to me at first, but you know, NYT. Still, lots of new detail I hadn't seen about Netanyahu's "gamble" (which seems much less like a gamble and much more like a viciously cynical ploy, tomato tomahto, I suppose); both pieces are worth reading, even if you already know the basic outline:
As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state...
“One effective way to prevent a two-state solution is to divide between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank,” he said in an interview. The division gives Mr. Netanyahu an excuse to disengage from peace talks, Mr. Brom said, adding that he can say, “I have no partner.”
Mr. Netanyahu did not articulate this strategy publicly, but some on the Israeli political right had no such hesitation. Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who is now Mr. Netanyahu’s finance minister, put it bluntly in 2015, the year he was elected to Parliament.
“The Palestinian Authority is a burden,” he said. “Hamas is an asset.”
As a side note, Smotrich is a right-wing shit, as bad as Ben-Gvir, and I can only dream that the above quote soon comes back at him to permanently crush his political career:
It had previously been reported that Smotrich was held by the Shin Bet security service for three weeks on suspicion that he was planning to block major traffic arteries and damage infrastructure to protest [Israel's 2005 Gaza withdrawal]. He was part of a cell of five people who were caught allegedly planning an attack with 700 liters of gasoline, the Yedioth Ahronoth daily reported. He was released without any charges being brought.
Ilan appeared to confirm this, reportedly telling the gathering: “I interrogated Smotrich...He is a terrorist. He’s Jewish, but he’s a terrorist,” Ilan reportedly said. “At the time of the disengagement he wanted to blow up cars on the Ayalon highway, at rush hour, with gasoline. We caught him with 700 liters (185 gallons) of the stuff.”
posted by mediareport at 8:39 AM on December 10, 2023 [18 favorites]
‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas (archive)
It links early on to this Politico EU piece from the time of the temporary truce, Netanyahu: Don’t accuse me of boosting Hamas with Qatari money, which quotes former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert:
“In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas,” he previously told POLITICO. “Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza.”
Some of the framing in the new NYT piece seemed a bit too forgiving to me at first, but you know, NYT. Still, lots of new detail I hadn't seen about Netanyahu's "gamble" (which seems much less like a gamble and much more like a viciously cynical ploy, tomato tomahto, I suppose); both pieces are worth reading, even if you already know the basic outline:
As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state...
“One effective way to prevent a two-state solution is to divide between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank,” he said in an interview. The division gives Mr. Netanyahu an excuse to disengage from peace talks, Mr. Brom said, adding that he can say, “I have no partner.”
Mr. Netanyahu did not articulate this strategy publicly, but some on the Israeli political right had no such hesitation. Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who is now Mr. Netanyahu’s finance minister, put it bluntly in 2015, the year he was elected to Parliament.
“The Palestinian Authority is a burden,” he said. “Hamas is an asset.”
As a side note, Smotrich is a right-wing shit, as bad as Ben-Gvir, and I can only dream that the above quote soon comes back at him to permanently crush his political career:
It had previously been reported that Smotrich was held by the Shin Bet security service for three weeks on suspicion that he was planning to block major traffic arteries and damage infrastructure to protest [Israel's 2005 Gaza withdrawal]. He was part of a cell of five people who were caught allegedly planning an attack with 700 liters of gasoline, the Yedioth Ahronoth daily reported. He was released without any charges being brought.
Ilan appeared to confirm this, reportedly telling the gathering: “I interrogated Smotrich...He is a terrorist. He’s Jewish, but he’s a terrorist,” Ilan reportedly said. “At the time of the disengagement he wanted to blow up cars on the Ayalon highway, at rush hour, with gasoline. We caught him with 700 liters (185 gallons) of the stuff.”
posted by mediareport at 8:39 AM on December 10, 2023 [18 favorites]
The impact of that to America, the world, and the climate is going to make Oct. 7 and/or the genocide in Gaza look like nothing.
Can we avoid phrasing like this please and efforts to refocus the discussion of an unfolding genocide to American electoral politics. For people who have family, friends or other connections to Palestine, being told that the genocide of their people is “nothing” compared to American politics is a grotesque thing to hear and it hurt my heart to read it. Gazans and their lives do matter and however remote they may feel to you, people with connections to Palestine may be reading your words.
That feels like a bad faith reading of my comment, which was clearly pro-Palestine. I'm not trying to focus the thread on the US, but my comment was right after the US (where I live) vetoed a UN cease-fire resolution, which has a direct impact on the people you are talking about. And I'll save any other "how bad is Trump" for another thread, but there's no question that a second presidency would be *even worse* for Palestinians than the current misguided Biden / US policy towards Israel. The first ceasefire would absolutely not have happened.
Maybe that's a misunderstanding of US English idioms - "X is going to make Y look like nothing" is used to simultaneously acknowledge that X is very bad and that worse things are coming. For example, "Due to climate change, future California wildfires are going to make the Paradise fire seem like nothing" is in no way a discounting of the Paradise fire; it's the opposite. Sorry if I offended you.
Also (in another part of my comment) I didn't mean to imply that Jewish Americans should not try to influence American foreign policy towards Israel. I'm complaining about groups with foreign ties using outsize financial and other influence to skew the conversation well away from any kind of logical middle ground. Speaking up about Palestinian issues in the US is like, I dunno, trying to be vocal about trans issues in Texas. The long thumb of conservative/genocidal Israeli leaders is firmly on the scale of US internal politics.
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:31 AM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can we avoid phrasing like this please and efforts to refocus the discussion of an unfolding genocide to American electoral politics. For people who have family, friends or other connections to Palestine, being told that the genocide of their people is “nothing” compared to American politics is a grotesque thing to hear and it hurt my heart to read it. Gazans and their lives do matter and however remote they may feel to you, people with connections to Palestine may be reading your words.
That feels like a bad faith reading of my comment, which was clearly pro-Palestine. I'm not trying to focus the thread on the US, but my comment was right after the US (where I live) vetoed a UN cease-fire resolution, which has a direct impact on the people you are talking about. And I'll save any other "how bad is Trump" for another thread, but there's no question that a second presidency would be *even worse* for Palestinians than the current misguided Biden / US policy towards Israel. The first ceasefire would absolutely not have happened.
Maybe that's a misunderstanding of US English idioms - "X is going to make Y look like nothing" is used to simultaneously acknowledge that X is very bad and that worse things are coming. For example, "Due to climate change, future California wildfires are going to make the Paradise fire seem like nothing" is in no way a discounting of the Paradise fire; it's the opposite. Sorry if I offended you.
Also (in another part of my comment) I didn't mean to imply that Jewish Americans should not try to influence American foreign policy towards Israel. I'm complaining about groups with foreign ties using outsize financial and other influence to skew the conversation well away from any kind of logical middle ground. Speaking up about Palestinian issues in the US is like, I dunno, trying to be vocal about trans issues in Texas. The long thumb of conservative/genocidal Israeli leaders is firmly on the scale of US internal politics.
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:31 AM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think again we have a situation where some people (mostly on the more pro-Israeli side of things) think the issue at hand is specific legalistic terminology but the people they're arguing with (mostly on the more pro-Palestinian side of things) think the issue at hand is morality.
We saw it earlier when we had people talking past each other with regards to bombing hospitals and one group was citing the specific terms of the Geneva conventions while the other was saying that bombing hospitals was morally wrong.
I don't think many people actually care one way or another if what Israel is doing matches more closely the definition of tactical bombing or the definition of strategic bombing. One group wants to emphasize the immorality of the bombings, the other wishes to avoid discussing morality and instead debate terminology.
I will say, on the morality side, and the topic of human shields, in almost any other context but the faceless warfare context there is never any real question that killing human shields to reach your target is morally wrong.
A good example of this is in the 1994 movie The Shadow. We have a scene establishing that Ying-Ko is a villain: negotiations he is having with a rival crime boss have gone sideways, the rival realizes he's about to be killed grabs Ying-Ko's elderly aide and supposed friend as a hostage saying that Ying-Ko's guards aren't good enough to shoot around the literal human shield.
Ying-Ko says: "You're right," and then the inevitable villainous followup to his guards is "shoot through him"
We are intended to see this scene as establishing Ying-Ko is a monster of a man who is immoral and takes evil actions. I think anyone watching the movie would agree that's the purpose of the scene, and I'd be surprised if even 5% or so said Ying-Ko was justified or what he did was moral.
Yet, when we look at Hamas (ostensibly) using a hospital as a human shield a great many people retreat into legalisms and citation of the Geneva Conventions to justify moving away from the obvious conclusion that it's immoral to bomb hospitals, a conclusion they'd agree with in The Shadow or any other work of fiction depicting a human shield situation. Motivated reasoning would appear to be at play. People predisposed to favor the Israeli position are reluctant to agree that what Israel is doing is immoral even if saying so would not mean arguing against the existence of Israel or the validity of its cause against Hamas.
We see the same dynamic at play with regards to the hair splitting over whether what Israel is doing **REALLY** counts as strategic bombing or if it's something else. The answer is: who cares, it's WRONG whatever it is. And what baffles me about the people arguing against that is that they seem to think admitting that the IDF is doing something wrong means saying Hamas is good and Israel should be abolished.
posted by sotonohito at 9:57 AM on December 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
We saw it earlier when we had people talking past each other with regards to bombing hospitals and one group was citing the specific terms of the Geneva conventions while the other was saying that bombing hospitals was morally wrong.
I don't think many people actually care one way or another if what Israel is doing matches more closely the definition of tactical bombing or the definition of strategic bombing. One group wants to emphasize the immorality of the bombings, the other wishes to avoid discussing morality and instead debate terminology.
I will say, on the morality side, and the topic of human shields, in almost any other context but the faceless warfare context there is never any real question that killing human shields to reach your target is morally wrong.
A good example of this is in the 1994 movie The Shadow. We have a scene establishing that Ying-Ko is a villain: negotiations he is having with a rival crime boss have gone sideways, the rival realizes he's about to be killed grabs Ying-Ko's elderly aide and supposed friend as a hostage saying that Ying-Ko's guards aren't good enough to shoot around the literal human shield.
Ying-Ko says: "You're right," and then the inevitable villainous followup to his guards is "shoot through him"
We are intended to see this scene as establishing Ying-Ko is a monster of a man who is immoral and takes evil actions. I think anyone watching the movie would agree that's the purpose of the scene, and I'd be surprised if even 5% or so said Ying-Ko was justified or what he did was moral.
Yet, when we look at Hamas (ostensibly) using a hospital as a human shield a great many people retreat into legalisms and citation of the Geneva Conventions to justify moving away from the obvious conclusion that it's immoral to bomb hospitals, a conclusion they'd agree with in The Shadow or any other work of fiction depicting a human shield situation. Motivated reasoning would appear to be at play. People predisposed to favor the Israeli position are reluctant to agree that what Israel is doing is immoral even if saying so would not mean arguing against the existence of Israel or the validity of its cause against Hamas.
We see the same dynamic at play with regards to the hair splitting over whether what Israel is doing **REALLY** counts as strategic bombing or if it's something else. The answer is: who cares, it's WRONG whatever it is. And what baffles me about the people arguing against that is that they seem to think admitting that the IDF is doing something wrong means saying Hamas is good and Israel should be abolished.
posted by sotonohito at 9:57 AM on December 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
I think again we have a situation where some people (mostly on the more pro-Israeli side of things) think the issue at hand is specific legalistic terminology but the people they're arguing with (mostly on the more pro-Palestinian side of things) think the issue at hand is morality.
this is an extremely generous interpretation. what i see is people decrying heinous crimes against humanity and others responding by using technical language to try and tell them to ignore their lying eyes. the jargon of genocide apology always works to redefine it so that in fact it’s perfectly justified self defense. it has always taken this form and the point of the quibbling is to simultaneously fluster the people who are declaring the obvious truth of the horror and to also smirk and wink a bit because everyone knows what is really going on
posted by dis_integration at 12:27 PM on December 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
this is an extremely generous interpretation. what i see is people decrying heinous crimes against humanity and others responding by using technical language to try and tell them to ignore their lying eyes. the jargon of genocide apology always works to redefine it so that in fact it’s perfectly justified self defense. it has always taken this form and the point of the quibbling is to simultaneously fluster the people who are declaring the obvious truth of the horror and to also smirk and wink a bit because everyone knows what is really going on
posted by dis_integration at 12:27 PM on December 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
We saw it earlier when we had people talking past each other with regards to bombing hospitals and one group was citing the specific terms of the Geneva conventions while the other was saying that bombing hospitals was morally wrong.
Just to be totally fair, I think I was the one who got most pedantic with citing the specific terms of the Geneva conventions and it was to point out that even if anyone was trying to get technical Israel was still wrong and was still doing war crimes. But your broader point is valid.
posted by corb at 4:56 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just to be totally fair, I think I was the one who got most pedantic with citing the specific terms of the Geneva conventions and it was to point out that even if anyone was trying to get technical Israel was still wrong and was still doing war crimes. But your broader point is valid.
posted by corb at 4:56 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
'Al Qassem Brigades spokesperson Abu Obeida threatened on December 10 that Hamas would conduct additional terror attacks against Israeli civilians. '
Israeli forces killed the Hamas Shujaiya Battalion commander during clearing operations in the neighborhood
Israel moved elements of its Artillery Corps into the Gaza Strip for the first time since the war began
The al Qassem Brigades military spokesperson, Abu Obeida, boasted about Hamas’ alleged battlefield success in the Gaza Strip in a speech on December 10.
Hamas and several other Palestinian groups called for a global strike, especially in the West Bank, on December 11.
Top Israeli security and military officials discussed publicly on December 10 the threat that LH poses to Israel.
The French FREMM Multi-Mission Frigate Languedoc intercepted two incoming Houthi drones off the Yemeni coast while patrolling the Red Sea on December 9.
Cypriot security forces arrested two Iranians on December 10 for allegedly plotting to assassinate prominent Israelis inside Cyprus
ISW
posted by clavdivs at 7:00 PM on December 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israeli forces killed the Hamas Shujaiya Battalion commander during clearing operations in the neighborhood
Israel moved elements of its Artillery Corps into the Gaza Strip for the first time since the war began
The al Qassem Brigades military spokesperson, Abu Obeida, boasted about Hamas’ alleged battlefield success in the Gaza Strip in a speech on December 10.
Hamas and several other Palestinian groups called for a global strike, especially in the West Bank, on December 11.
Top Israeli security and military officials discussed publicly on December 10 the threat that LH poses to Israel.
The French FREMM Multi-Mission Frigate Languedoc intercepted two incoming Houthi drones off the Yemeni coast while patrolling the Red Sea on December 9.
Cypriot security forces arrested two Iranians on December 10 for allegedly plotting to assassinate prominent Israelis inside Cyprus
ISW
posted by clavdivs at 7:00 PM on December 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israelis aren't seeing the devastating pictures Australians see from the war in Gaza. They're watching a sanitised war
Very interesting ABC article that purports that the average Israeli citizen just isn't seeing the regular montage of devastation and immiseration that has filled the feeds of the rest of us; they're being entirely insulated from the brutal reality of the war.
There will rarely, if ever, be a picture of a Palestinian. If there is, it will likely be a picture of a Hamas commander. The Palestinians portrayed are terrorists, not civilians who are victims. Watching Hebrew-language TV at night over recent weeks, I've never seen a Palestinian victim of Israel's attack on Gaza. (emphasis mine)
More generally:
Artists being censored - Prominent Australian artist Mike Parr dropped by Anna Schwartz Gallery over performance that referenced the Israel-Gaza War
Parr was compelled by a conversation he had with Schwartz prior to the performance in which he alleges that she told him pro-Palestinian protests were "just young people virtue signalling".
A Melbournite who has gone on leave from his job to try and save as many people as he can: Australians turn to WhatsApp group for help to get family members out of Gaza
In recent weeks, as the numbers in the WhatsApp group have swelled, and the death toll in Gaza has mounted, the sense of panic in the chat has also grown.
"You can feel the stress with every word that people say. You can feel the worries. You can feel the sadness," says Ayman Dhlan, a father of three from Melbourne.
...There are also curious cases among the names, such as a baby, born just two weeks after Hamas' October 7 attack, who is listed without any other family members.
Particularly interesting to me is the implication that Israel is vetoing almost all passes for "men". I've been told over and over that Israel is the only place in the region that would accept me, had graphic descriptions of what I would allegedly be subjected to by any other state. It does seem like Israel is proving that they're not really any better than anyone else when it comes to gender, especially when you look at the links Mediareport offered at how the Israeli army imprisons and punishes bright young women.
The high school students: Canberra students subject to racist taunts, Middle Eastern businesses vandalised as Israel-Gaza war rages
""We want some kind of acknowledgement for the tears we've shed with our families before school and after school," a protester told the crowd at Garema Place.
For the added problems we deal with on top of the average student, for the despair overshadowing our drive to finish assignments."
Many of us love learning, but don't have any way to focus anymore."
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:56 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Very interesting ABC article that purports that the average Israeli citizen just isn't seeing the regular montage of devastation and immiseration that has filled the feeds of the rest of us; they're being entirely insulated from the brutal reality of the war.
There will rarely, if ever, be a picture of a Palestinian. If there is, it will likely be a picture of a Hamas commander. The Palestinians portrayed are terrorists, not civilians who are victims. Watching Hebrew-language TV at night over recent weeks, I've never seen a Palestinian victim of Israel's attack on Gaza. (emphasis mine)
More generally:
Artists being censored - Prominent Australian artist Mike Parr dropped by Anna Schwartz Gallery over performance that referenced the Israel-Gaza War
Parr was compelled by a conversation he had with Schwartz prior to the performance in which he alleges that she told him pro-Palestinian protests were "just young people virtue signalling".
A Melbournite who has gone on leave from his job to try and save as many people as he can: Australians turn to WhatsApp group for help to get family members out of Gaza
In recent weeks, as the numbers in the WhatsApp group have swelled, and the death toll in Gaza has mounted, the sense of panic in the chat has also grown.
"You can feel the stress with every word that people say. You can feel the worries. You can feel the sadness," says Ayman Dhlan, a father of three from Melbourne.
...There are also curious cases among the names, such as a baby, born just two weeks after Hamas' October 7 attack, who is listed without any other family members.
Particularly interesting to me is the implication that Israel is vetoing almost all passes for "men". I've been told over and over that Israel is the only place in the region that would accept me, had graphic descriptions of what I would allegedly be subjected to by any other state. It does seem like Israel is proving that they're not really any better than anyone else when it comes to gender, especially when you look at the links Mediareport offered at how the Israeli army imprisons and punishes bright young women.
The high school students: Canberra students subject to racist taunts, Middle Eastern businesses vandalised as Israel-Gaza war rages
""We want some kind of acknowledgement for the tears we've shed with our families before school and after school," a protester told the crowd at Garema Place.
For the added problems we deal with on top of the average student, for the despair overshadowing our drive to finish assignments."
Many of us love learning, but don't have any way to focus anymore."
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:56 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
"virtue signaling" is like "CRT", it's a term used by the far right to indicate that they're far right and talking about someone they ahte. It has nothing to do with the actual sociological concept anymore.
posted by sotonohito at 6:13 AM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 6:13 AM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
MisantropicPainforest - we were discussing the ineffectiveness of strategic bombing, it was someone else who brought up the bombing to oblivion angle and I slipped up and used that word instead in my reply to them - to argue about genocide / non-genocide has already been well discussed by others previously and I have no desire to relitigate that. Replace that word instead with "strategic bombing" - it specifically refers to attacking civilian areas outside the area of operation, eg the British and Americans were expending tremendous resources bombing cities rather than efforts that would directly help with establishing a bridgehead at Normandy.
Sotonohito - I'm making a moral argument as well - that we have a moral imperative to wipe out Hamas and not leave them as a functioning organization, because leaving them intact would result in greater harm.
I had a few days to think about why my social / cultural group feels so strongly about this issue, it would probably take too long to fully dissect. Basically it would have been a catastrophe for our minority group if the war against the Japanese or Communists was left "half done" out of some well meaning concern over civilian casualties. It's not a coincidence minorities seek refuge in western democracies - life as an outsider minority under Muslim fundamentalists, Communists or Imperial Japan is pretty bad, to say the least.
We're all predisposed to viewing things a certain way, I don't know many (any?) people who have changed their mind on this as a result of rational argument. Fundamentally, we all agree there is a red line, we just disagree on where it is. As the death and destruction in Gaza continues, more and more people will decide Israel crossed the line.
posted by xdvesper at 7:16 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sotonohito - I'm making a moral argument as well - that we have a moral imperative to wipe out Hamas and not leave them as a functioning organization, because leaving them intact would result in greater harm.
I had a few days to think about why my social / cultural group feels so strongly about this issue, it would probably take too long to fully dissect. Basically it would have been a catastrophe for our minority group if the war against the Japanese or Communists was left "half done" out of some well meaning concern over civilian casualties. It's not a coincidence minorities seek refuge in western democracies - life as an outsider minority under Muslim fundamentalists, Communists or Imperial Japan is pretty bad, to say the least.
We're all predisposed to viewing things a certain way, I don't know many (any?) people who have changed their mind on this as a result of rational argument. Fundamentally, we all agree there is a red line, we just disagree on where it is. As the death and destruction in Gaza continues, more and more people will decide Israel crossed the line.
posted by xdvesper at 7:16 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sotonohito - I'm making a moral argument as well - that we have a moral imperative to wipe out Hamas and not leave them as a functioning organization, because leaving them intact would result in greater harm.
this is not a "moral" argument. greater harm in what way? what harm could hamas cause that's greater than tens of thousands of dead innocent civilians, many of them children? the harm you are scared of is happening right now, and it's not hamas dishing it out.
We're all predisposed to viewing things a certain way, I don't know many (any?) people who have changed their mind on this as a result of rational argument. Fundamentally, we all agree there is a red line, we just disagree on where it is. As the death and destruction in Gaza continues, more and more people will decide Israel crossed the line.
the line was crossed ages ago. some of us will remember what people said and did during this period for the rest of our lives.
posted by nourishedbytime at 8:02 AM on December 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
this is not a "moral" argument. greater harm in what way? what harm could hamas cause that's greater than tens of thousands of dead innocent civilians, many of them children? the harm you are scared of is happening right now, and it's not hamas dishing it out.
We're all predisposed to viewing things a certain way, I don't know many (any?) people who have changed their mind on this as a result of rational argument. Fundamentally, we all agree there is a red line, we just disagree on where it is. As the death and destruction in Gaza continues, more and more people will decide Israel crossed the line.
the line was crossed ages ago. some of us will remember what people said and did during this period for the rest of our lives.
posted by nourishedbytime at 8:02 AM on December 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
"we all agree that genocide is bad, but we disagree on whether its worth it or not"
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:07 AM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:07 AM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
We had to destroy Gaza in order to save it
posted by dis_integration at 8:46 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 8:46 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm making a moral argument as well - that we have a moral imperative to wipe out Hamas and not leave them as a functioning organization, because leaving them intact would result in greater harm.
It’s sad to me how in the US people calling for a ceasefire and self-determination for Palestinians are being labeled as anti-semites or worse that supporting Palestinian freedom is equivalent to calling for the genocide of Israelis and even resulting in people having to resign or be fired from jobs or lose other opportunities. But arguing that Israel has to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians — in my mind morally genocide if not legally since they also seem to be intentionally targeting places people necessary for continuity of culture (medical facilities, water infrastructure, schools, journalists, teacher) — is apparently just fine to many? The violence now will not bring back the dead but it likely will sadly encourage some to feel they are justified in using violence in the future. How is this violence going to achieve Israeli’s leadership’s claimed goal — to stop the threat of violence coming from Gaza into Israel? How does killing entire families or everyone but one member — repeated over and over — achieve that end? Is every Palestinian expected to just accept that it was right and good for them to lose their family or suffer injury so the threat of Hamas — a group most don’t even like — is ended? If the people of Israel have a right to exist and to thrive then so do Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank and refugee camps everywhere). It is wrong for Hamas to kill 1200 non-combatants. It is wrong for the IDF to kill well more than 1200.
We here in metafilter are largely insulated from direct harm from this conflict but for many of us it’s being supported in our names as US residents whose elected leaders have long tacitly supported oppression of and violence towards Palestinians (admittedly not only in Israel & Palestine). Worse many American Jews are yet again being treated as if they are extensions of Israel (including by members of our own government now with that resolution last week) which is encouraging all the anti-Semitism that’s always been here. But the least we could do is not support the killing of thousands of children on a vague argument that otherwise worse will happen in the future. That is wrong and gross. The people now matter and their deaths cannot be justified because someone in power asserts that it’s necessary to reduce “greater” harm in the future. The loss of every person is a loss to us all. The harm is being done now and the future harm is at best hypothetical and unknowable. Arguing it is acceptable to indiscriminately kill Gazans now to reduce future harm is the language of genocide. In all genocides those committing horrible violence justify it because of claims of current risk from a group or as a claimed reduction of that risk in the future. It remains wrong even if the legal arguments are complicated.
posted by R343L at 8:53 AM on December 11, 2023 [27 favorites]
It’s sad to me how in the US people calling for a ceasefire and self-determination for Palestinians are being labeled as anti-semites or worse that supporting Palestinian freedom is equivalent to calling for the genocide of Israelis and even resulting in people having to resign or be fired from jobs or lose other opportunities. But arguing that Israel has to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians — in my mind morally genocide if not legally since they also seem to be intentionally targeting places people necessary for continuity of culture (medical facilities, water infrastructure, schools, journalists, teacher) — is apparently just fine to many? The violence now will not bring back the dead but it likely will sadly encourage some to feel they are justified in using violence in the future. How is this violence going to achieve Israeli’s leadership’s claimed goal — to stop the threat of violence coming from Gaza into Israel? How does killing entire families or everyone but one member — repeated over and over — achieve that end? Is every Palestinian expected to just accept that it was right and good for them to lose their family or suffer injury so the threat of Hamas — a group most don’t even like — is ended? If the people of Israel have a right to exist and to thrive then so do Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank and refugee camps everywhere). It is wrong for Hamas to kill 1200 non-combatants. It is wrong for the IDF to kill well more than 1200.
We here in metafilter are largely insulated from direct harm from this conflict but for many of us it’s being supported in our names as US residents whose elected leaders have long tacitly supported oppression of and violence towards Palestinians (admittedly not only in Israel & Palestine). Worse many American Jews are yet again being treated as if they are extensions of Israel (including by members of our own government now with that resolution last week) which is encouraging all the anti-Semitism that’s always been here. But the least we could do is not support the killing of thousands of children on a vague argument that otherwise worse will happen in the future. That is wrong and gross. The people now matter and their deaths cannot be justified because someone in power asserts that it’s necessary to reduce “greater” harm in the future. The loss of every person is a loss to us all. The harm is being done now and the future harm is at best hypothetical and unknowable. Arguing it is acceptable to indiscriminately kill Gazans now to reduce future harm is the language of genocide. In all genocides those committing horrible violence justify it because of claims of current risk from a group or as a claimed reduction of that risk in the future. It remains wrong even if the legal arguments are complicated.
posted by R343L at 8:53 AM on December 11, 2023 [27 favorites]
Basically it would have been a catastrophe for our minority group if the war against the Japanese or Communists was left "half done" out of some well meaning concern over civilian casualties. It's not a coincidence minorities seek refuge in western democracies - life as an outsider minority under Muslim fundamentalists, Communists or Imperial Japan is pretty bad, to say the least.
The thing about this argument is that it doesn't address the moral demand for Israel--a nation-state in which Muslim fundamentalists, Communists, and Imperial Japan are not the demographic majority--to stop bombing thousands of innocent civilians into oblivion every week.
And most conversations about the much, much longer-term work of Palestinian freedom and full civil and human rights acknowledge the concern that a Jewish homeland should remain a Jewish majority.
posted by kensington314 at 10:44 AM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The thing about this argument is that it doesn't address the moral demand for Israel--a nation-state in which Muslim fundamentalists, Communists, and Imperial Japan are not the demographic majority--to stop bombing thousands of innocent civilians into oblivion every week.
And most conversations about the much, much longer-term work of Palestinian freedom and full civil and human rights acknowledge the concern that a Jewish homeland should remain a Jewish majority.
posted by kensington314 at 10:44 AM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Basically it would have been a catastrophe for our minority group if the war against the Japanese or Communists was left "half done"
A sincere question: do you acknowledge that all that's necessary to join ideological organizations is picking up a gun and declaring yourself a part of them?
Given that, do you really think it's possible, leaving aside the moral issues, to completely eliminate groups that are made up of people with ideas and commitment?
posted by corb at 11:37 AM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
A sincere question: do you acknowledge that all that's necessary to join ideological organizations is picking up a gun and declaring yourself a part of them?
Given that, do you really think it's possible, leaving aside the moral issues, to completely eliminate groups that are made up of people with ideas and commitment?
posted by corb at 11:37 AM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm making a moral argument as well - that we have a moral imperative to wipe out Hamas and not leave them as a functioning organization, because leaving them intact would result in greater harm.
When the current regime that controls the state of Israel has directly propped up Hamas for over a decade (see mediareport's links above, for starters), then can one take what Netanyahu and the Israeli State claims it's attempting to do, which is to destroy Hamas, at face value? Is there any morality at play within Bibi's/Likud's machinations? Or is it just realpolitik?
(Also, what's the deal with Netanyahu's corruption trial? Has it been paused in the interest of national security?)
posted by nikoniko at 1:21 PM on December 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
When the current regime that controls the state of Israel has directly propped up Hamas for over a decade (see mediareport's links above, for starters), then can one take what Netanyahu and the Israeli State claims it's attempting to do, which is to destroy Hamas, at face value? Is there any morality at play within Bibi's/Likud's machinations? Or is it just realpolitik?
(Also, what's the deal with Netanyahu's corruption trial? Has it been paused in the interest of national security?)
posted by nikoniko at 1:21 PM on December 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Arguing it is acceptable to indiscriminately kill Gazans now to reduce future harm is the language of genocide.
I think you mean Hamas, not Gazans
So Hamas launches a surprise terror attack on Oct. 7, what was the moral imperative to attack unarmed civilians with murder, rape, and kidnapping then slink away into the sewers.
posted by clavdivs at 1:37 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think you mean Hamas, not Gazans
So Hamas launches a surprise terror attack on Oct. 7, what was the moral imperative to attack unarmed civilians with murder, rape, and kidnapping then slink away into the sewers.
posted by clavdivs at 1:37 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Missing from much of the comentary here on the relationship between Hamas and Netanyahu is the fact that the only way for Israel to replace Hamas as the leadership of Gaza was to do what they are doing now. Israel was caught in a damned if they do and damned if they don't situation and decided to make the best of it. Hamas did not want to negotiate a peace deal and considers all of Israel occupied territory -- no just Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas was in charge of Gaza. The first decade of Hamas rule in Gaza was characterized by sanctions on Hamas/Gaza and multiple efforts to get the PA to remove Hamas from Gaza. That didn't succeed and instead we saw outbreaks of violence between Israel and Gaza -- resulting in increased suffering of Palestinians. Allowing funds to get to Hamas, reducing restrictions on crossings, allowing Gazans to work in Israel were both supportive of Netanyahu's aim of preventing a Palestinian state but also supportive of a strategy to reduce the amount of violence and establish some kind of lasting truce / ceasefire with Gaza. What would you have had them do otherwise? Hamas has not been willing to engage in the kind of peace talks necessary to end the conflict. No one made Hamas decide to dig in and hold to this extreme position. That was all on Hamas.
posted by interogative mood at 1:49 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 1:49 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
> What would you have had them do otherwise?
Considering that this effort will not only not destroy Hamas, almost certainly it will strengthen it by motivating more young traumatized men to take up arms, and will harden the hearts of Palestinians everywhere for several generations against a peaceful resolution to the conflict with Israel, literally anything else. But I see we've reached the "what other choice did we have" stage in genocide apologia.
posted by dis_integration at 2:17 PM on December 11, 2023 [25 favorites]
Considering that this effort will not only not destroy Hamas, almost certainly it will strengthen it by motivating more young traumatized men to take up arms, and will harden the hearts of Palestinians everywhere for several generations against a peaceful resolution to the conflict with Israel, literally anything else. But I see we've reached the "what other choice did we have" stage in genocide apologia.
posted by dis_integration at 2:17 PM on December 11, 2023 [25 favorites]
the only way for Israel to replace Hamas as the leadership of Gaza was to do what they are doing now.
Is this even true as an objective fact? For example the U.S. has helped carry out numerous coups around the world without killing tens of thousands of innocent people in two months and reducing a full society to a kind of rubble from which only a Hobbesian state of competing warlords can emerge.
And that meddling in others' affairs wasn't good--it was terrible. But it goes to the point: even the horrible shit that the U.S. has done--topple governments, kidnap and disappear dissidents, prop up entire regimes based entirely on grift, kill smaller numbers of people--all that horrible shit is preferable to a genocidal bombing campaign.
I just don't really understand the repeated desire to say, "All Israel can do is kill thousands and thousands of innocents . . . it is the regrettable, but sole way forward."
posted by kensington314 at 2:31 PM on December 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
Is this even true as an objective fact? For example the U.S. has helped carry out numerous coups around the world without killing tens of thousands of innocent people in two months and reducing a full society to a kind of rubble from which only a Hobbesian state of competing warlords can emerge.
And that meddling in others' affairs wasn't good--it was terrible. But it goes to the point: even the horrible shit that the U.S. has done--topple governments, kidnap and disappear dissidents, prop up entire regimes based entirely on grift, kill smaller numbers of people--all that horrible shit is preferable to a genocidal bombing campaign.
I just don't really understand the repeated desire to say, "All Israel can do is kill thousands and thousands of innocents . . . it is the regrettable, but sole way forward."
posted by kensington314 at 2:31 PM on December 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
I think you mean Hamas, not Gazans
But it is *Gazans* that are being killed indiscriminately. Just because the IDF says retroactively that all the journalists they're targeting were secretly Hamas, doesn't mean you have to believe them.
Hamas has not been willing to engage in the kind of peace talks necessary to end the conflict
Neither has Israel. The kind of peace talks that actually look at fairness, and leaving the Palestinians a real state with control of its own borders and security.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:37 PM on December 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
But it is *Gazans* that are being killed indiscriminately. Just because the IDF says retroactively that all the journalists they're targeting were secretly Hamas, doesn't mean you have to believe them.
Hamas has not been willing to engage in the kind of peace talks necessary to end the conflict
Neither has Israel. The kind of peace talks that actually look at fairness, and leaving the Palestinians a real state with control of its own borders and security.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:37 PM on December 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
clavdivs: no I meant what I wrote. The vast majority of the people in Gaza being killed are not members of Hamas. Thousands are children. The argument being made by many is that Israel has no choice because it’s the only way to stop future violence from Hamas or to destroy Hamas. I was responding to a particular comment up thread expressing this sentiment which I’ve also seen from political leaders in Israel, US and elsewhere as soon as human rights organizations started pointing out that most people being killed are not Hamas members and that places being targeted included places that folks expect to not be targeted. Justifying those deaths by labeling those who died as Hamas members or as preventing future Hamas violence is genocidal language.
Also please re-read what I wrote. It was wrong for Hamas to attack who they did in the manner that they did. It doesn’t justify Israel doing similar or worse. What I wrote: “It is wrong for Hamas to kill 1200 non-combatants. It is wrong for the IDF to kill well more than 1200.”
posted by R343L at 2:39 PM on December 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
Also please re-read what I wrote. It was wrong for Hamas to attack who they did in the manner that they did. It doesn’t justify Israel doing similar or worse. What I wrote: “It is wrong for Hamas to kill 1200 non-combatants. It is wrong for the IDF to kill well more than 1200.”
posted by R343L at 2:39 PM on December 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
Considering that this effort will not only not destroy Hamas, almost certainly it will strengthen it by motivating more young traumatized men to take up arms, and will harden the hearts of Palestinians everywhere for several generations against a peaceful resolution to the conflict with Israel
Palestinians were already motivated and full of hardened hearts long before this. The only difference between before and after this is over will be if Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza to be able to recruit and radicalize men from birth with the full power of the local government. There is also some chance that Gazans will put some of the blame for this on Hamas and that other leaders with different ideas will come to power.
posted by interogative mood at 3:51 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Palestinians were already motivated and full of hardened hearts long before this. The only difference between before and after this is over will be if Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza to be able to recruit and radicalize men from birth with the full power of the local government. There is also some chance that Gazans will put some of the blame for this on Hamas and that other leaders with different ideas will come to power.
posted by interogative mood at 3:51 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
The only difference between before and after this is over will be if Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza to be able to recruit and radicalize men from birth with the full power of the local government.
That is far from the only difference there will be. A near total destruction of Gazan civil society, infrastructure, and civil life is happening. Untold human suffering will have been caused. The Israeli government and IDF will be wholly responsible for this.
A lot of people would say that no political outcome is worth that, justifies that, especially not one as insignificant as what you're suggesting.
posted by Dysk at 4:07 PM on December 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
That is far from the only difference there will be. A near total destruction of Gazan civil society, infrastructure, and civil life is happening. Untold human suffering will have been caused. The Israeli government and IDF will be wholly responsible for this.
A lot of people would say that no political outcome is worth that, justifies that, especially not one as insignificant as what you're suggesting.
posted by Dysk at 4:07 PM on December 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
interogative mood, I feel like that comment is entirely at odds with pretty much every event where a group has tried to eliminate a terrorist organization through indiscriminate killing?
I'm sorry, but if the justification for the genocide that's happening now is "We don't want them to be able to recruit with the full power of local government", that's some horrifying logic. Especially given it was a regime propped up by Israel.
Like, do you seriously think that this will somehow *deradicalize* Palestinian youths?
And it's downright offensive to say "The only difference [...] will be if Hamas is no longer in power..." as if the main difference isn't already tens of thousands dead and displaced.
posted by sagc at 4:09 PM on December 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
I'm sorry, but if the justification for the genocide that's happening now is "We don't want them to be able to recruit with the full power of local government", that's some horrifying logic. Especially given it was a regime propped up by Israel.
Like, do you seriously think that this will somehow *deradicalize* Palestinian youths?
And it's downright offensive to say "The only difference [...] will be if Hamas is no longer in power..." as if the main difference isn't already tens of thousands dead and displaced.
posted by sagc at 4:09 PM on December 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
operating from a framework where you don't see Palestinians as human beings with the right of self determination, sure, maybe it's the "only way".
at least after 2 months of dead children we're finally having some honest conversations.
posted by nourishedbytime at 4:25 PM on December 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
at least after 2 months of dead children we're finally having some honest conversations.
posted by nourishedbytime at 4:25 PM on December 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
Missing from much of the comentary here on the relationship between Hamas and Netanyahu
I'm honestly surprised it took almost 2 months for you to flat-out justify Netanyahu's pro-Hamas strategy; I've been waiting for it from you for a while. Of course, you completely avoid mentioning Netanyahu's own flatly stated rationale - the risk of allowing fungible cash to flow to Hamas under Israel's direction was more than outweighed for him by the benefit of blocking any peace negotiations by splitting Palestinians between two opposing leadership groups. I mean, he *said* that directly:
"Whoever opposes a Palestinian state must support delivery of funds to Gaza because maintaining separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza will prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."
Which makes this from you:
Hamas did not want to negotiate a peace deal
just the latest incomplete attempt at spin you often dump here.
posted by mediareport at 4:32 PM on December 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
I'm honestly surprised it took almost 2 months for you to flat-out justify Netanyahu's pro-Hamas strategy; I've been waiting for it from you for a while. Of course, you completely avoid mentioning Netanyahu's own flatly stated rationale - the risk of allowing fungible cash to flow to Hamas under Israel's direction was more than outweighed for him by the benefit of blocking any peace negotiations by splitting Palestinians between two opposing leadership groups. I mean, he *said* that directly:
"Whoever opposes a Palestinian state must support delivery of funds to Gaza because maintaining separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza will prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."
Which makes this from you:
Hamas did not want to negotiate a peace deal
just the latest incomplete attempt at spin you often dump here.
posted by mediareport at 4:32 PM on December 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
In some world where this *was* actually the only way, and Israel *really* didn't want to do it, and *really* wanted to minimise civilian casualties, I'd expect some steps taken like:
Trying and sentencing IDF members who engage in hateful or genocidal speech - I'm sure it's technically against the rules for soldiers to comment on a Jerusalem Post article saying that Palestinians are animals, they just don't mind that rhetoric so it's not being enforced.
Investigating and occasionally even punishing IDF members who kill journalists, medics, so on. I understand they'd get away with a lot of them, but the death of Shireen Abu Akleh shows that they're just not interested in doing it at all.
Leaving a fair peace deal on the table so that there was an alternative to Hamas for Gazans to clamour for.
Opening refugee camps and hospitals within current Israeli borders, so that it's clear that they're not intended to be permanent settlements or part of a program of ethnic cleansing.
Cracking down on hate speech in civil society: I'm sure they have nominal media standards and at very least government employees can't have complete freedom of speech. Do Israeli companies, sports teams, community organisations not have codes of conduct?
Intervening directly against settler terrorists. Like, not just packing up the illegal settlements, but IDF members putting their bodies between the settler guns and West Bank Palestinians, rather than watching, bored, while settlers torture random farmers and other civilians on a whim.
I haven't heard that any of these things are happening, instead what I hear is that they're brutalising any Israeli who tries to stand up against these injustices, they're against UN observers, and singing pop songs about killing Palestinians. Talking about Amalek.
It really doesn't seem like this is something Israel is forced into and is trying to do in the most humane and clean way possible.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:02 PM on December 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
Trying and sentencing IDF members who engage in hateful or genocidal speech - I'm sure it's technically against the rules for soldiers to comment on a Jerusalem Post article saying that Palestinians are animals, they just don't mind that rhetoric so it's not being enforced.
Investigating and occasionally even punishing IDF members who kill journalists, medics, so on. I understand they'd get away with a lot of them, but the death of Shireen Abu Akleh shows that they're just not interested in doing it at all.
Leaving a fair peace deal on the table so that there was an alternative to Hamas for Gazans to clamour for.
Opening refugee camps and hospitals within current Israeli borders, so that it's clear that they're not intended to be permanent settlements or part of a program of ethnic cleansing.
Cracking down on hate speech in civil society: I'm sure they have nominal media standards and at very least government employees can't have complete freedom of speech. Do Israeli companies, sports teams, community organisations not have codes of conduct?
Intervening directly against settler terrorists. Like, not just packing up the illegal settlements, but IDF members putting their bodies between the settler guns and West Bank Palestinians, rather than watching, bored, while settlers torture random farmers and other civilians on a whim.
I haven't heard that any of these things are happening, instead what I hear is that they're brutalising any Israeli who tries to stand up against these injustices, they're against UN observers, and singing pop songs about killing Palestinians. Talking about Amalek.
It really doesn't seem like this is something Israel is forced into and is trying to do in the most humane and clean way possible.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:02 PM on December 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
Dunno, man, seems pretty restrained and accurate to me. You've been advancing the thesis that Israel has never had any choices in their reactions - and implying that their goals and lack of choices justify pretty much anything - for several months now.
posted by sagc at 5:16 PM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 5:16 PM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted. At this point, there are several users who need to step away from the thread right now and leave some space for other users. Buckling down and arguing with folks is not something we allow or encourage, and comments will be deleted if that continues to happen. Also, please utilize the flag feature as always rather than calling out users in your own comments, which only leads to more distracting derails.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 6:00 PM on December 11, 2023
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 6:00 PM on December 11, 2023
I'm sorry I took the bait and personalized my last comment, which dodged a bullet and could rightly have been deleted under the site guidelines. If it is I'll reframe it without singling out a particular user. Again, I apologize for that.
posted by mediareport at 6:37 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 6:37 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
recruit and radicalize men from birth
Children are not terrorists.
Suggesting that an entire ethnic group are essentially born to terrorism is racist.
Treating children as terrorists is a war crime. International law dictates how to treat child soldiers, but it is also very, very far from the case that all Gazan children are combatants.
Children are not terrorists.
Let me repeat that for emphasis:
CHILDREN ARE NOT TERRORISTS.
posted by eviemath at 9:51 PM on December 11, 2023 [25 favorites]
Children are not terrorists.
Suggesting that an entire ethnic group are essentially born to terrorism is racist.
Treating children as terrorists is a war crime. International law dictates how to treat child soldiers, but it is also very, very far from the case that all Gazan children are combatants.
Children are not terrorists.
Let me repeat that for emphasis:
CHILDREN ARE NOT TERRORISTS.
posted by eviemath at 9:51 PM on December 11, 2023 [25 favorites]
Also, ease up on the gender essentialism.
posted by eviemath at 10:01 PM on December 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 10:01 PM on December 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
https://defector.com/palestinian-suffering-is-never-as-urgent-as-the-counterfactual
A beautiful essay from Samer Kalaf on how the hypothetical suffering of Jews is privileged over the actual suffering of Palestinians by the mainstream media.
I've noticed it myself. As the ground truth that a historic genocide is being carried out by Israel has became impossible to ignore the NYT has replaced coverage of Gaza at the top of their front page with a series of articles dissecting the response of Ivy league university presidents to how they would handle theoretical calls for the genocide of Jewish students.
posted by zymil at 2:49 AM on December 12, 2023 [19 favorites]
A beautiful essay from Samer Kalaf on how the hypothetical suffering of Jews is privileged over the actual suffering of Palestinians by the mainstream media.
I've noticed it myself. As the ground truth that a historic genocide is being carried out by Israel has became impossible to ignore the NYT has replaced coverage of Gaza at the top of their front page with a series of articles dissecting the response of Ivy league university presidents to how they would handle theoretical calls for the genocide of Jewish students.
posted by zymil at 2:49 AM on December 12, 2023 [19 favorites]
A beautiful essay from Samer Kalaf on how the hypothetical suffering of Jews is privileged over the actual suffering of Palestinians by the mainstream media.
If you assume Palestinians aren't people, then its very easy to get to a place where their suffering is irrelevant, potential suffering of actual humans is more important than palestinian suffering, You can kill nearly 10,000 of their children and its still worth it because they're suffering doesn't matter and its quite possible that killing those 10k children can increase the security of actual humans who deserve respect and life, that there's no responsibility to alleviate their suffering because their suffering doesn't matter, that its fine they live in rubble, etc.
Believing palestinians are animals is the easiest way to get to our current policy, Israel's policy, the mainstream media's treatment of them, and frankly some of the comments in this thread.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:48 AM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
If you assume Palestinians aren't people, then its very easy to get to a place where their suffering is irrelevant, potential suffering of actual humans is more important than palestinian suffering, You can kill nearly 10,000 of their children and its still worth it because they're suffering doesn't matter and its quite possible that killing those 10k children can increase the security of actual humans who deserve respect and life, that there's no responsibility to alleviate their suffering because their suffering doesn't matter, that its fine they live in rubble, etc.
Believing palestinians are animals is the easiest way to get to our current policy, Israel's policy, the mainstream media's treatment of them, and frankly some of the comments in this thread.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:48 AM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
'm making a moral argument as well - that we have a moral imperative to wipe out Hamas and not leave them as a functioning organization, because leaving them intact would result in greater harm.
That's been kicking around in my head for a while, and I think it's a position many people arguing for a continued campaign against the Gazan population would agree with.
However, even leaving aside the inherent immorality of a bombing campaign against civilians, there is still a deep probem with that position: it won't work.
It is impossible to destory Hamas by killing people in Gaza, if for no other reason at all than that Hamas exists outside Gaza so even the total depopulation of Gaza will not accomplish the puported goal of the bombings.
Which leaves us with a question that seems simple but is so dangerous no one on the pro-bombing side wants to ask it.
At some point the bombing and murder of Gazan people will end, whether that is due to there no longer being anyone left in Gaza to murder, or more hopefully at some point a faint glimmer of humanity will be rekindled in the bloodthirsty segment of the Israeli population and they will stay their hand while Gazans still live. Either way, Hamas will still exist.
What will they do then?
And why didn't Israel do that to begin with instead of engaging in mass murder?
posted by sotonohito at 6:27 AM on December 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
That's been kicking around in my head for a while, and I think it's a position many people arguing for a continued campaign against the Gazan population would agree with.
However, even leaving aside the inherent immorality of a bombing campaign against civilians, there is still a deep probem with that position: it won't work.
It is impossible to destory Hamas by killing people in Gaza, if for no other reason at all than that Hamas exists outside Gaza so even the total depopulation of Gaza will not accomplish the puported goal of the bombings.
Which leaves us with a question that seems simple but is so dangerous no one on the pro-bombing side wants to ask it.
At some point the bombing and murder of Gazan people will end, whether that is due to there no longer being anyone left in Gaza to murder, or more hopefully at some point a faint glimmer of humanity will be rekindled in the bloodthirsty segment of the Israeli population and they will stay their hand while Gazans still live. Either way, Hamas will still exist.
What will they do then?
And why didn't Israel do that to begin with instead of engaging in mass murder?
posted by sotonohito at 6:27 AM on December 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
One of my old union buddies worked in Palestine for a while and married a Palestinian. They are broken up now and the ex emigrated, but my friend's kid is Palestinian-American and his other parent's relatives are all in Palestine, undergoing god knows what. So my union buddy's kid's grandparents could be dead in an airstrike or starving in the rubble for all I know - we haven't caught up in a few months due to life events.
My point here being that no man is an island. Frankly even if my friend's kid's grandparents WERE in fact all big Hamas supporters, which as far as I know they are not, I still would not think it was great if they were picking around in the rubble for some stale bread to eat and I would not expect it to be easy on my friend or my friend's kid or my friend's kid's other parent.
~~
It is always possible to decide that "winning" isn't worth it if it requires killing and displacing millions of people. A children's book commonplace, true, but I grew up with the idea that winning by becoming a monster isn't really winning.
posted by Frowner at 6:42 AM on December 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
My point here being that no man is an island. Frankly even if my friend's kid's grandparents WERE in fact all big Hamas supporters, which as far as I know they are not, I still would not think it was great if they were picking around in the rubble for some stale bread to eat and I would not expect it to be easy on my friend or my friend's kid or my friend's kid's other parent.
~~
It is always possible to decide that "winning" isn't worth it if it requires killing and displacing millions of people. A children's book commonplace, true, but I grew up with the idea that winning by becoming a monster isn't really winning.
posted by Frowner at 6:42 AM on December 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
'm making a moral argument as well - that we have a moral imperative to wipe out Hamas and not leave them as a functioning organization, because leaving them intact would result in greater harm.
I'm not sure it would cause greater harm, given that their biggest ever operation caused about 1200 deaths. Fifteen times that have been killed in this one war so far. You're talking several generations at least for leaving the status quo as being the greater harm.
posted by Dysk at 7:42 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure it would cause greater harm, given that their biggest ever operation caused about 1200 deaths. Fifteen times that have been killed in this one war so far. You're talking several generations at least for leaving the status quo as being the greater harm.
posted by Dysk at 7:42 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
A beautiful essay from Samer Kalaf on how the hypothetical suffering of Jews is privileged over the actual suffering of Palestinians
Hypothetical suffering? Antisemitic violence happens every day. In the United States 60% of all religious based hate crimes are against Jews.
posted by interogative mood at 7:48 AM on December 12, 2023
Hypothetical suffering? Antisemitic violence happens every day. In the United States 60% of all religious based hate crimes are against Jews.
posted by interogative mood at 7:48 AM on December 12, 2023
You could try actually reading the linked article, and you'll see how that 'objection' is a complete non-sequitur:
The nature of Zionism treats Palestinians not as humans but as part of an amorphous pestilence capable of anything, shifted to fit any reason. When they are alive, they are a potential threat; when they are dead, they are a victim of their own circumstance. There is always some impossible counterfactual, some exonerating hypothetical. This process is how a child’s death can be blamed not on the Israeli soldier who fired the rocket, but on the imagined Palestinians who failed to put the child out of harm’s way.
Nobody is saying that there is no Jewish suffering. They're saying that Jewish suffering that could hypothetically exist is used to justify actual suffering by Palestinians. It's "well we have to make these Palestinians suffer, or Jews in Israel might suffer in future". Hate crimes in the US have nothing to do with that.
posted by Dysk at 8:17 AM on December 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
The nature of Zionism treats Palestinians not as humans but as part of an amorphous pestilence capable of anything, shifted to fit any reason. When they are alive, they are a potential threat; when they are dead, they are a victim of their own circumstance. There is always some impossible counterfactual, some exonerating hypothetical. This process is how a child’s death can be blamed not on the Israeli soldier who fired the rocket, but on the imagined Palestinians who failed to put the child out of harm’s way.
Nobody is saying that there is no Jewish suffering. They're saying that Jewish suffering that could hypothetically exist is used to justify actual suffering by Palestinians. It's "well we have to make these Palestinians suffer, or Jews in Israel might suffer in future". Hate crimes in the US have nothing to do with that.
posted by Dysk at 8:17 AM on December 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
(Also if we're talking 'advanced stats' here, what percentage of hate crimes are religious based hate crimes? Because I suspect that a hate crime against a Palestinian or Muslim might well be classified as a racist hate crime, not a religious one, despite the two being linked to a point where they can't be cleanly separated.)
posted by Dysk at 8:20 AM on December 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 8:20 AM on December 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jeremy Scahill: "Ha'aretz reports that the Israeli military's Operations Directorate operates a Telegram channel called "72 Virgins – Uncensored" that posts sadistic images of Israelis murdering Palestinians, mutilating their bodies"
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:40 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:40 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Not to derail too much into US politics, but to try to answer the question: attacks on mosques or on women who are wearing a hijab or similar religious garment are classified as religion-based in the US. Not sure about attacks such as the recent one in Vermont on the three Palestinian college students (probably not), or ones targeting men wearing turbans (could be seen as anti-Arab and thus ethnic/race-based rather than religious, especially given the number of ignorant bigots who don’t know the difference between Sikhs and Muslims). There’s fewer widespread conspiracy theories involving Muslims or Arabs versus Jewish people in the US, for various historical reasons, so there’s also a bit less of the incidental hate speech as part of other conspiracies or general right wing rhetoric. (Eg. there’s a large overlap between general xenophobia - which includes Islamophobia and bigotry against Latino/as and any other Brown people - and the Great Replacement conspiracy which is originally Antisemitic and so would get categorized as such when included as part of a white supremacist’s rhetoric for a hate crime.) Still unrelated to the article, but I think the while one has to look at the error bars as with any statistics, the stats on religion-based hate crimes in the US are probably reasonably accurate.)
posted by eviemath at 8:40 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:40 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
US Raises Concern Over Israel's Possible Use of U.S.-Supplied White Phosphorous - NYT (apologies, I don't have a link that bypasses the sign-in screen, I just saw the headline).
posted by toastyk at 8:58 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by toastyk at 8:58 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israel's response to Oct. 07th can be compared to the US response to the Twin Towers
the destruction of Iraq, the deaths of Iraqi civilians, for what
meanwhile Elise Stefanik gets her day in the media limelight, holding university presidents' feet to the fire re: antisemitism. if you need to know how wrong this whole situation is, just look in any direction. it's all wrong, and meanwhile try to imagine Israel in one month.. one year.. Safer?
tell me then, who is benefiting from all this
posted by elkevelvet at 9:59 AM on December 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
the destruction of Iraq, the deaths of Iraqi civilians, for what
meanwhile Elise Stefanik gets her day in the media limelight, holding university presidents' feet to the fire re: antisemitism. if you need to know how wrong this whole situation is, just look in any direction. it's all wrong, and meanwhile try to imagine Israel in one month.. one year.. Safer?
tell me then, who is benefiting from all this
posted by elkevelvet at 9:59 AM on December 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Most Moral Army in the World:
‘Like we were lesser humans’: Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
'Inside one of the rooms of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, Mahmoud Zindah stays close to his father, Nader, the horrors of the past week etched on both of their faces. Their eyes are wide, darting around.
The 14-year-old and his father were among hundreds of Palestinians rounded up on December 5 by Israeli forces in the Shujayea area, east of Gaza City, who endured five days of torture and degradation before they were released – without any explanation...
“We were all blindfolded, so we couldn’t see each other, but we heard the women telling us to look out for them like we would for our own sisters,” Nader says. “There were also younger children with them.”
The truck stopped, and once again, the men and women were separated. The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed....
Mohammed Odeh, 14, was taken from the same Wadi al-Arayes neighbourhood in Zeitoun as the Zindahs, where he and his family were stuck in their homes for five days, starving...
“It was hell on earth. It was like spending five years in that warehouse. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.”'
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:26 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
‘Like we were lesser humans’: Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture
'Inside one of the rooms of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, Mahmoud Zindah stays close to his father, Nader, the horrors of the past week etched on both of their faces. Their eyes are wide, darting around.
The 14-year-old and his father were among hundreds of Palestinians rounded up on December 5 by Israeli forces in the Shujayea area, east of Gaza City, who endured five days of torture and degradation before they were released – without any explanation...
“We were all blindfolded, so we couldn’t see each other, but we heard the women telling us to look out for them like we would for our own sisters,” Nader says. “There were also younger children with them.”
The truck stopped, and once again, the men and women were separated. The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed....
Mohammed Odeh, 14, was taken from the same Wadi al-Arayes neighbourhood in Zeitoun as the Zindahs, where he and his family were stuck in their homes for five days, starving...
“It was hell on earth. It was like spending five years in that warehouse. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.”'
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:26 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is more like the US invasion of Afghanistan to go after Al Qaeda, not the US invasion of Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on the Twin Towers; but Al Qaeda planned and funded the operation from Afghanistan.
Nobody is saying that there is no Jewish suffering.
The comment in the thread related to the article described the suffering of jews as hypothetical. And already I see comments in this thread attempting to minimize statistics related to the Jewish experience of antisemitism. This on top of multiple comments suggesting that the events of October 7th were somehow not that horrific, or perhaps overzealous use of attack helicopters by the IDF.
The 2022 numbers for the USA are provided on the FBI website. For 2022 the number was 2,042 religious hate crimes, out of 11,634 of the religiously motivated ones 1,122 were targeted at jews vs 158 reported incidents against Muslims. If you normalize that for the percentage of the population (Jews at 2.4 vs Muslims 1.1%) then the per capita experience of hate crimes is about 2x for Jews vs Muslims.
This is in the US which perceived as pretty tolerant of Jewish people. This trend where Jews are disproportionately singled out as targets of hate crimes more than other groups is found around the world. For example data from Germany published by the OSCE -- 2610 incidents targeting Jews vs 610 targeting Muslims.
Palestinians have been taught that the holocaust was a lie created by zionists. Mahmoud Abbas said in September of this year that the jews killed in the holocaust were not singled out because of culture or religion but because of their social position as "usurers and money lenders". He previously wrote his PhD thesis and a book claiming that less than a million jews died and that the Nazi's and Zionists secretly conspired together. The Haavara agreement of 1933 wasn't secret and it was extremely controversial at the time and widely condemned by zionists. There were attempts to get Jews out of Nazi Germany and away from death camps by many parties; but this didn't stop the Nazi's from killing as many as they could and implementing their final solution. Yet the myth continues with individuals like former London Mayor Ken Livingstone making the claim.
If you want to understand this conflict you have to be willing to look at the experiences of both sides and understand that there is plenty of generational trauma to go around, some of it shared and some of it caused by the other, and some of it caused by outsiders. The Palestinian experience under Ottoman and British rule as disenfranchised subjects of empires. The Israeli/Jewish experience of the holocaust, antisemtism and seeking refuge in Israel. The unresolved conflict from 1948 and all its echos.
posted by interogative mood at 11:09 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Nobody is saying that there is no Jewish suffering.
The comment in the thread related to the article described the suffering of jews as hypothetical. And already I see comments in this thread attempting to minimize statistics related to the Jewish experience of antisemitism. This on top of multiple comments suggesting that the events of October 7th were somehow not that horrific, or perhaps overzealous use of attack helicopters by the IDF.
The 2022 numbers for the USA are provided on the FBI website. For 2022 the number was 2,042 religious hate crimes, out of 11,634 of the religiously motivated ones 1,122 were targeted at jews vs 158 reported incidents against Muslims. If you normalize that for the percentage of the population (Jews at 2.4 vs Muslims 1.1%) then the per capita experience of hate crimes is about 2x for Jews vs Muslims.
This is in the US which perceived as pretty tolerant of Jewish people. This trend where Jews are disproportionately singled out as targets of hate crimes more than other groups is found around the world. For example data from Germany published by the OSCE -- 2610 incidents targeting Jews vs 610 targeting Muslims.
Palestinians have been taught that the holocaust was a lie created by zionists. Mahmoud Abbas said in September of this year that the jews killed in the holocaust were not singled out because of culture or religion but because of their social position as "usurers and money lenders". He previously wrote his PhD thesis and a book claiming that less than a million jews died and that the Nazi's and Zionists secretly conspired together. The Haavara agreement of 1933 wasn't secret and it was extremely controversial at the time and widely condemned by zionists. There were attempts to get Jews out of Nazi Germany and away from death camps by many parties; but this didn't stop the Nazi's from killing as many as they could and implementing their final solution. Yet the myth continues with individuals like former London Mayor Ken Livingstone making the claim.
If you want to understand this conflict you have to be willing to look at the experiences of both sides and understand that there is plenty of generational trauma to go around, some of it shared and some of it caused by the other, and some of it caused by outsiders. The Palestinian experience under Ottoman and British rule as disenfranchised subjects of empires. The Israeli/Jewish experience of the holocaust, antisemtism and seeking refuge in Israel. The unresolved conflict from 1948 and all its echos.
posted by interogative mood at 11:09 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Netanyahu and Biden voice divisions over war's next steps (NYT gift, Reuters)
tl;dr,
Netanyahu was like 'Israel will not let the Palestinian Authority take over Gaza,' and then Biden was like 'Okay, but you can't say no to a Palestinian state, and also maybe lay off the indiscriminate bombing.'
posted by box at 11:14 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
tl;dr,
Netanyahu was like 'Israel will not let the Palestinian Authority take over Gaza,' and then Biden was like 'Okay, but you can't say no to a Palestinian state, and also maybe lay off the indiscriminate bombing.'
posted by box at 11:14 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is more like the US invasion of Afghanistan to go after Al Qaeda, not the US invasion of Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on the Twin Towers; but Al Qaeda planned and funded the operation from Afghanistan.
I know exactly what I wrote. I am saying the Israeli response is blood-blinded and to some extent it has been co-opted toward objectives that have nothing to do with the interests of the majority of Israelis. Hence the comparison.
Also, the repercussions in the world will be felt for generations. Again, the comparison is fair. The war in Afghanistan could be its own comparison, you are welcome to make that comparison.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:24 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I know exactly what I wrote. I am saying the Israeli response is blood-blinded and to some extent it has been co-opted toward objectives that have nothing to do with the interests of the majority of Israelis. Hence the comparison.
Also, the repercussions in the world will be felt for generations. Again, the comparison is fair. The war in Afghanistan could be its own comparison, you are welcome to make that comparison.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:24 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Palestinian experience under Ottoman and British rule as disenfranchised subjects of empires. The Israeli/Jewish experience of the holocaust, antisemtism and seeking refuge in Israel. The unresolved conflict from 1948 and all its echos.
Um, I think you're missing a kind of big one regarding Palestinian experiences of generational trauma as "disenfranchised subjects"!
I don't understand why you continually post comments that contain these little nuggets that are either very deceptive or outright lies? It feels disrespectful to other commenters.
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:27 AM on December 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
Um, I think you're missing a kind of big one regarding Palestinian experiences of generational trauma as "disenfranchised subjects"!
I don't understand why you continually post comments that contain these little nuggets that are either very deceptive or outright lies? It feels disrespectful to other commenters.
posted by armadillo1224 at 11:27 AM on December 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
If you want to understand this conflict you have to be willing to look at the experiences of both sides and understand that there is plenty of generational trauma to go around
this excuse does not work any longer. there are 15k dead Palestinians. either you care about their deaths or you don't.
I don't understand why you continually post comments that contain these little nuggets that are either very deceptive or outright lies? It feels disrespectful to other commenters.
this has been their project for two months straight, i'm not even sure what the point is any longer because everyone in this thread sees it.
posted by nourishedbytime at 11:46 AM on December 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
this excuse does not work any longer. there are 15k dead Palestinians. either you care about their deaths or you don't.
I don't understand why you continually post comments that contain these little nuggets that are either very deceptive or outright lies? It feels disrespectful to other commenters.
this has been their project for two months straight, i'm not even sure what the point is any longer because everyone in this thread sees it.
posted by nourishedbytime at 11:46 AM on December 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Um, I think you're missing a kind of big one regarding Palestinian experiences of generational trauma as "disenfranchised subjects"!
This is another denial of actual violence against Palestinians---the British didn't just 'disenfranchise' Palestinians, they instituted a colony-wide campaign of terror, complete with tying Palestinians to trains (as human shields) to martial law to straightforward shooting farmers in the head. The Israelis of course depopulated 400+ villages, conducted massacres against Palestinian civilians, and created 750,000+ refugees.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:13 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is another denial of actual violence against Palestinians---the British didn't just 'disenfranchise' Palestinians, they instituted a colony-wide campaign of terror, complete with tying Palestinians to trains (as human shields) to martial law to straightforward shooting farmers in the head. The Israelis of course depopulated 400+ villages, conducted massacres against Palestinian civilians, and created 750,000+ refugees.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:13 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
(Also on the US politics aside: FBI statistics on hate crimes are based on reporting police departments, which in the past missed quite a large number of departments that do not keep or report such data. New federal requirements in 2021 initially led to an even worse undercount, and though the FBI later published revised statistics with additional police departments contributing. Various organizations that keep track of hate and bias incidents in the US, including the Marshall Project, the SPLC, and others give some estimates of the scale of the under-count in the FBI statistics, and some of the ways in which the data seems to be skewed (vastly under-counting violence against women and femicide as a category of hate or bias incident, for example). Lawfare has more from 2021 as well. From the Marshall Project link on the revised 2021 FBI numbers, and the issues still remaining with them and with the new reporting system, anti-Black hate crimes were the largest category reported, at about 1/3 of all hate crimes in the US. In 2021, the largest increases were in anti-Asian hate crimes and anti-LGBTQ hate crimes, the latter of which at least I know from other sources also continues to be a growing problem. Also noted: anti-Sikh hate crimes were growing in 2021 (and considered as religion-based hate crimes); but there is the question I raised above about whether those targeting Sikhs understood that they were not Muslim, or whether the intention behind anti-Sikh hate crimes was primarily Islamophobic in nature. That would potentially complicate the relative proportions within the subset of religion-based hate crimes.
Anyway, while this is of relevance to the feelings of general security or lack thereof of many of our fellow Mefites in the US (whose opinions about Israel’s latest actions toward Palestinians vary), US hate crimes are largely committed by white nationalist and related groups or individuals. There is little to no Hamas activity within the US. There is more Israeli government lobbying, which one might worry about contributing to Islamophobia within the US under the current Israeli regime. But this doesn’t seem to be a specific concern of either Hamas or non-Hamas Gazans, and thus it is a derail from the topic of this post.)
posted by eviemath at 12:14 PM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anyway, while this is of relevance to the feelings of general security or lack thereof of many of our fellow Mefites in the US (whose opinions about Israel’s latest actions toward Palestinians vary), US hate crimes are largely committed by white nationalist and related groups or individuals. There is little to no Hamas activity within the US. There is more Israeli government lobbying, which one might worry about contributing to Islamophobia within the US under the current Israeli regime. But this doesn’t seem to be a specific concern of either Hamas or non-Hamas Gazans, and thus it is a derail from the topic of this post.)
posted by eviemath at 12:14 PM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
The comment in the thread related to the article described the suffering of jews as hypothetical.
Given your comment history, this begins to look like an intentional misreading of a description of the analysis of specific rhetorical examples in the specific article linked, where the commenter notes that actual harms to both Israeli and non-Israeli Jews exist but were not the specific subject of the specific article they were specifically addressing.
posted by eviemath at 12:23 PM on December 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
Given your comment history, this begins to look like an intentional misreading of a description of the analysis of specific rhetorical examples in the specific article linked, where the commenter notes that actual harms to both Israeli and non-Israeli Jews exist but were not the specific subject of the specific article they were specifically addressing.
posted by eviemath at 12:23 PM on December 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
On the topic of Antisemitism expressed by some Palestinian leaders: that does not in any way justify genocide. By your argument, the Hamas attack on Oct. 7 would have been justified due to the rhetoric of Israel’s right wing extremist leadership who had been using extremely dehumanizing language and explicitly calling for genocide against Palestinians before Oct. 7. I absolutely reject that. People don’t earn human rights or the right to be free from murder and genocide by being paragons of virtue - those are human rights they are owed by dint of being human, with all the range of behaviours from selfless justice-seeking to small-minded and bigoted that entails for any group of humans.
posted by eviemath at 12:30 PM on December 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 12:30 PM on December 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
The comment in the thread related to the article described the suffering of jews as hypothetical.
It talked about hypothetical Jewish suffering, which is not the same thing. I can say that someone is cancelling a picnic because of a hypothetical rainstorm, doesn't mean I think rainstorms don't exist.
posted by Dysk at 1:26 PM on December 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
It talked about hypothetical Jewish suffering, which is not the same thing. I can say that someone is cancelling a picnic because of a hypothetical rainstorm, doesn't mean I think rainstorms don't exist.
posted by Dysk at 1:26 PM on December 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
Moments ago the UN General Assembly overwhelmingly (153 for, 10 against, 23 abstaining) passed a resolution with basically the same language as the one that the US vetoed at the Security Council recently. The full text being:
posted by bcd at 1:33 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Protection of civilians and upholding legal andAmendments from Austria adding “held by Hamas and other groups” after “hostages” and by the US adding a whole paragraph, “Unequivocally rejects and condemns the heinous terrorist attacks by Hamas that took place in Israel starting 7 October 2023 and the taking of hostages” failed to pass.
humanitarian obligations
The General Assembly,
Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
Recalling its resolutions regarding the question of Palestine,
Recalling also all relevant Security Council resolutions,
Taking note of the letter dated 6 December 2023 from the Secretary-General,
under Article 99 of the Charter of the United Nations, addressed to the President of
the Security Council,
Taking note also of the letter dated 7 December 2023 from the Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the
Near East addressed to the President of the General Assembly,
Expressing grave concern over the catastrophic humanitarian situation in the
Gaza Strip and the suffering of the Palestinian civilian population, and emphasizing
that the Palestinian and Israeli civilian populations must be protected in accordance
with international humanitarian law,
1. Demands an immediate humanitarian ceasefire;
2. Reiterates its demand that all parties comply with their obligations under
international law, including international humanitarian law, notably with regard to the
protection of civilians;
3. Demands the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages, as well
as ensuring humanitarian access;
4. Decides to adjourn the tenth emergency special session temporarily and to
authorize the President of the General Assembly at its most recent session to resume
its meeting upon request from Member States
posted by bcd at 1:33 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
WSJ: Israel’s military has begun to pump seawater into Hamas’s vast complex of tunnels in Gaza, according to US officials.
So, literally salting the earth. Lovely.
posted by bcd at 3:25 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
So, literally salting the earth. Lovely.
posted by bcd at 3:25 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
omg a reference to some instance of "hypothetical suffering" is obviously not the same as a characterisation of other instances of actual suffering as hypothetical. JFC.
less charged example: i painted a few of the toenails on my left foot, but not the right, and now I'm doing other stuff for the moment. someone observed "if busted_crayons paints the rest of his toenails, then he'll probably have to get some sandals to better engender envy in all MeFites of good taste." that counterfactual concerns at least five toenails that are only purple hypothetically. pointing out my five hypothetical purple toenails is totally compatible with recognising the at most five toenails that are observably, non-hypothetically, already purple. and if someone makes a point about the role of my hypothetical purple toenails, they need not mention my actually purple toenails if it's not germane to their point, and an observer bringing up a bunch of stuff about my actually purple toenails is probably a distraction from their point.
obviously everyone knows this, and the people engaged in disingenuous misdirection and whataboutery while willfully dehydrated children get blown up by right-wing fanatics with the material support of the global axis of racism are just scraping the bottom of the barrel rhetorically and they know it.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:33 PM on December 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
less charged example: i painted a few of the toenails on my left foot, but not the right, and now I'm doing other stuff for the moment. someone observed "if busted_crayons paints the rest of his toenails, then he'll probably have to get some sandals to better engender envy in all MeFites of good taste." that counterfactual concerns at least five toenails that are only purple hypothetically. pointing out my five hypothetical purple toenails is totally compatible with recognising the at most five toenails that are observably, non-hypothetically, already purple. and if someone makes a point about the role of my hypothetical purple toenails, they need not mention my actually purple toenails if it's not germane to their point, and an observer bringing up a bunch of stuff about my actually purple toenails is probably a distraction from their point.
obviously everyone knows this, and the people engaged in disingenuous misdirection and whataboutery while willfully dehydrated children get blown up by right-wing fanatics with the material support of the global axis of racism are just scraping the bottom of the barrel rhetorically and they know it.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:33 PM on December 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Actual Jewish people are suffering and I should have acknowledged that.
There are IDF conscripts in Gaza right now because the alternative was prison who are going to have to live with moral injury for the rest of their lives.
There are hostage families that have had to spend weeks watching the IDF do its best to kill their relatives.
Jewish citizens of Israel who protest the war are living in fear of being doxxed because it can lead to their homes being burnt down by right wing mobs.
posted by zymil at 4:49 PM on December 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
There are IDF conscripts in Gaza right now because the alternative was prison who are going to have to live with moral injury for the rest of their lives.
There are hostage families that have had to spend weeks watching the IDF do its best to kill their relatives.
Jewish citizens of Israel who protest the war are living in fear of being doxxed because it can lead to their homes being burnt down by right wing mobs.
posted by zymil at 4:49 PM on December 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
Graphic Videos and Incitement: How the IDF Is Misleading Israelis on Telegram (archive link)
Each night, the channel posts a daily summary that includes several IDF updates on the activity in Gaza, with promises of exclusive images and videos. "As always, we're the first to bring you the information from the field," it says. "We have crazy recordings of terrorists, how can we put it, swimming with the fishes. We have documentation no one else has. We promise much more!!!"posted by BungaDunga at 6:59 PM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
On October 14, alongside the caption, "Exclusive video of a good night, don't forget to share and repost," was a video of an Israeli vehicle repeatedly driving over the body of a terrorist. "Very good, Gershon!!! Run him over run him over!!!! Screw the bastards! Flatten them," the accompanying post said.
and, uh, I didn't editorialize on that link, but holy shit. The bit I quoted was probably not the worse post described. Just vile stuff, like stuff coming out of unofficial Russian telegram channels
posted by BungaDunga at 8:06 PM on December 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:06 PM on December 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
Moments ago the UN General Assembly overwhelmingly (153 for, 10 against, 23 abstaining) passed a resolution with basically the same language as the one that the US vetoed at the Security Council recently.
Of note, Canada and Australia officially voted yes on this as well. I saw the full breakdown of countries in this fedi post.
posted by cendawanita at 8:09 PM on December 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Of note, Canada and Australia officially voted yes on this as well. I saw the full breakdown of countries in this fedi post.
posted by cendawanita at 8:09 PM on December 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
For those curious about which countries changed stance -
Previous (October) UNGA vote for a humanitarian truce - 120 in favour
Today's UNGA vote for a humanitarian ceasefire - 153 in favour
28 countries switched their vote from Abstain to In Favour - Australia, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Greece, India, Japan, Philippines, Poland, South Korea, Sweden, Albania, Cyprus, Estonia, Ethiopia, Iceland, Iraq, Latvia, Malawi, Monaco, North Macedonia, Moldovia, San Marino, Serbia, Tunisia, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, Zambia.
2 countries switched from Against to In Favour - Fiji, Croatia
Specifically in the case of Australia, they issued a joint declaration with Canada and New Zealand (The Guardian), saying human suffering in Gaza was “widespread and unacceptable”, characterizing the vote as an evolution of Australia’s position. Australia abstained in the prior vote saying the motion did not mention Hamas as the perpetrator of the attack.
posted by xdvesper at 8:52 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Previous (October) UNGA vote for a humanitarian truce - 120 in favour
Today's UNGA vote for a humanitarian ceasefire - 153 in favour
28 countries switched their vote from Abstain to In Favour - Australia, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Greece, India, Japan, Philippines, Poland, South Korea, Sweden, Albania, Cyprus, Estonia, Ethiopia, Iceland, Iraq, Latvia, Malawi, Monaco, North Macedonia, Moldovia, San Marino, Serbia, Tunisia, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, Zambia.
2 countries switched from Against to In Favour - Fiji, Croatia
Specifically in the case of Australia, they issued a joint declaration with Canada and New Zealand (The Guardian), saying human suffering in Gaza was “widespread and unacceptable”, characterizing the vote as an evolution of Australia’s position. Australia abstained in the prior vote saying the motion did not mention Hamas as the perpetrator of the attack.
posted by xdvesper at 8:52 PM on December 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Al Jazeera reports that Palestinian women, children and babies were among those killed execution-style by Israeli soldiers while sheltering in a school in northern Gaza
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:47 AM on December 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:47 AM on December 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Doerthe Rosenow: I’ve reflected a lot on the German “never again” lately. When I was a child I remember asking my grandma how they could let the genocide happen. Her answer: “We just didn’t know”. She said while in her home town the Jewish people were deported, right in front of them. /1
posted by kmt at 7:55 AM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kmt at 7:55 AM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
On human shields. Nicola Perugini, who wrote the book on the history of Human Shields (review):
Who is using civilians as human shields in Gaza? This is Jabalia, one of the refugee camps most targeted by the mass killing campaigns, and where the Israeli military has used these Palestinian civilians as screens to advance in built-up areas. (video)posted by kmt at 8:07 AM on December 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
On friendly fire. One-fifth of troop fatalities in Gaza due to friendly fire or accidents, IDF reports (ynetnews.com)
The IDF doesn’t publish the full information on this incident due to various investigations still being examined in the IDF. In total, 105 soldiers have fallen in the ground operation so far. The army estimates that several hundred additional soldiers were wounded by friendly fire or operational accidents in enemy territory.also, the IDF says
The new figure of 20 casualties who fell specifically from operational accidents or friendly fire is minimal and doesn’t refer to the first three weeks preceding the ground escalation, regarding the casualties on October 7, nor does it include other fronts. For example, an IDF officer was killed as a result of a friendly fire incident near Qalqilya at the beginning of the war, and other soldiers were killed as a result of a tank turnover near the Lebanon border.
Casualties fell as a result of friendly fire on October 7, but the IDF believes that beyond the operational investigations of the events, it would not be morally sound to investigate these incidents due to the immense and complex quantity of them that took place in the kibbutzim and southern Israeli communities due to the challenging situations the soldiers were in at the time.posted by kmt at 8:11 AM on December 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ukrainian Letter of Solidarity with Palestinian people:
We, Ukrainian researchers, artists, political and labour activists, members of civil society stand in solidarity with the people of Palestine who for 75 years have been subjected and resisted Israeli military occupation, separation, settler colonial violence, ethnic cleansing, land dispossession and apartheid. We write this letter as people to people. The dominant discourse on the governmental level and even among solidarity groups that support the struggles of Ukrainians and Palestinians often creates separation. With this letter we reject these divisions, and affirm our solidarity with everyone who is oppressed and struggling for freedom.posted by kmt at 8:42 AM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
...
We have witnessed the world uniting in solidarity for the people of Ukraine and we call on everyone to do the same for the people of Palestine.
Re: Graphic Videos and Incitement: How the IDF Is Misleading Israelis on Telegram - @ireallyhateyou, who's been tracking the various israeli socmed and telegram groups (example) added to the reporting (nitter version):
I wrote several times about an Israeli Telegram channel called "Terrorists from Another Angle", which posts footage of dead Palestinians, corpse desecration and torture of detainees. Ha'aretz reveals today that the IDF's "Influence Department" runs a similar channel!
[...] Even though the channel's goal is obviously to imitate the better known group I mentioned earlier, it achieved very poor results - after more than two months the channel has only 5.7K subscribers, compared to more than 110K in the original group.
Another difference I found is that even though the people operating the IDF-run channel are trying hard to sound like the original group, they're not as imaginative and don't get anywhere close to the levels of depravity, sadism and perversion as the original group.
Here's a random (milder one) example from the original channel:
"Our forces eliminated another piggie. His filthy nostrils won't be able to produce any more unpleasant squealing. May we have a good day, full of abominable non-kosher meat [this is how they call dead Palestinians)
On Oct 7 casualties (adding to the news link that indicated unwillingness to investigate further): Ynet article in Hebrew: The finalized list of Oct 7 Israeli casualties - unfortunately Google Translate isn't transliterating the table, but according to @TalulaSha:
Here's a final list of the October 7 Israeli casualties. A couple statistics:
Total 1153
Civilians 785
Armed forces 368
I am sorry those lives were lost. I am also noting the final total.
From Dan Cohen: Fresh testimony reveals how Israel killed captives in Kibbutz Be’eri on October 7 - The testimony, published by Israel's Channel 12, was delivered by the sole survivor from the massacre inside one house, Hadas Dagan, a resident of Be’eri who had previously maintained her silence.
Her testimony continues where Yasmin Porat's (shared earlier) left off: While it’s unclear what the soldier and brigadier general thought was a disgrace – whether being forced to negotiate with Hamas or opening fire on a house full of captives – the fact that they shelled the house with a tank afterwards suggests the former.
Israeli shelling kills Adi Dagan
As tank shells continued to hit the house, Dagan found herself covered in blood, and saw that her husband, Adi, had been fatally wounded by the shelling, and her attempts to stop the bleeding were futile.
[...] Despite the Israeli police and military killing her husband along with the rest of the captives, and almost killing her too, rather than negotiate with the Hamas captors, Dagan does not take issue with that aspect of their conduct.
“I am angry… for us being abandoned, for us being betrayed. For the fact that we were left alone for so many hours,” she complained.
Regarding the decision to open fire on the house, she refused to condemn the Israeli army – a point repeatedly highlighted by the Channel 12 journalist.
“It’s clear that in this event lies a very heavy moral dilemma. I don’t want anyone to take this case with the very hard moral dilemma, and point their finger at the army,” Dagan said, reiterating that she and her husband were hit by Israeli army tank fire. “It’s quite clear to me that I was hit, and Adi, from the shrapnel of the… shell of the tank, because it was at the very same moment.”
In contrast to Dagan’s refusal to blame the military for killing her husband, another survivor from kibbutz Be’eri, Omri Shifrony, the nephew of Ayala ‘Aylus’ Hetzroni, criticized Brigadier General Barak Hiram, who claimed weeks before that his leadership actually saved Israeli lives, accusing him of lying.
“He didn’t have the slightest clue, even when he spoke, and that was two weeks later. He didn’t have a clue about what happened here, the slightest clue, because that’s not the truth,” Shifrony said.
For her part, Lee Naim, the Israeli journalist who covered the story, couched the shelling of the house as a challenge, despite the fact that Israeli fire apparently killed all but one hostage.
There is a news report (Hebrew) in Israel Hayom about how the survivors have now been demanding for an official inquiry: (gtranslate)
"We will not allow the cover-up to continue"
In a hotel in Tel Aviv, the families of the victims of the "Nova" party and the "Psydak" party gathered to light Hanukkah candles for the launch of the "Flowers of the Parties" headquarters.
The founding meeting was attended by over 200 bereaved families, who joined the action headquarters, in light of what they defined as the "prolonged neglect" they receive from the state. The families demand from the state recognition, rights adapted to their needs - including rights for the brothers of the party victims, who reluctantly bear the main burden of restoring the family and the establishment of a state commission of inquiry to investigate the omissions that led to the massacre.
There is no comfort. the families of the murdered
Among the representatives of the families who spoke was Erez Zarfati - the father of the late Ron Zarfati, an Air Force officer who was murdered at the "Nova" party: "We have already lost and no one looks us in the eye and takes responsibility. The party flower family headquarters will work to support the families of those murdered at parties in every possible aspect in order to restore their lives. We will work to receive tailored and broad assistance to all the families of the party victims, to establish a state commission of inquiry now. There is no longer any reason to wait, and we will not allow the continuation of the cover-up of the destruction of our world."
In the meantime, Lee Fang and Jack Paulson, based on Whatsapp activity and logs: Inside the Pro-Israel Information War - Israeli gov-led Zoom calls, WhatsApp chat logs, and other docs provide a window into the massive effort to shape online discourse and silence pro-Palestinian voices.
According to Haaretz: Of the hundreds of Palestinian detainees photographed handcuffed in the Gaza Strip in recent days, about 10 to 15 percent are Hamas operatives or are identified with the organization - according to senior security officials who spoke to Haaretz on Sunday. The IDF reported that the Palestinians who are not Hamas operatives that were arrested have been released.
According to the sources, this is not a massive surrender of entire units of Hamas disbanding and handing over their weapons to IDF fighters. Despite this, the security officials claim that the published photos of those detainees have a strong effect on the motivation of the organization's operatives who are still fighting in Gaza
No kidding, that's like 85-90% of civilians being casually sexually assaulted (through the stripping) and physical abuse (through the marching, and photographs), and for what?
Also: (Guardian) Civilians make up 61% of Gaza deaths from airstrikes, Israeli study finds - This was reporting from Haaretz (linked in the article), where it goes more in-depth including their categorizations:
According to the data, 6,747 people were killed during the October 7-26 period in Gaza, to which we can add dozens more who had not been identified at the time the numbers were tallied up. As usual, the Health Ministry did not distinguish between combatants and civilians. Accordingly, for the purpose of the analysis I will factor in the weight of three groups that can be categorized as "noncombatants": minors aged 17 and under, men of 60 and above, and women. Some will claim that Hamas recruits minors, but it's reasonable to think that the number of minors killed (based also on past data) is offset by adults aged 18-59 who were are not involved in the fighting but whom I did not include in this category.
This calculation shows that out of the total of 6,747, at least 4,594 individuals of both sexes who can be categorized as noncombatants were killed – 68 percent of the total. For the sake of caution, let us assume, as Prof. Kobi Michael from the Institute for National Security Studies argues, that errant rockets count for about 10 percent of the total rockets fired by the Gazan forces, and could do injury to their civilians, as was with the case in the strike on the Al-Ahli Hospital. If we reduce accordingly the number of noncombatants killed by Israel, the proportion decreases to 61 percent of the total, which is still far higher than the proportion of 33-42 percent for the aerial attacks in the past.
Elsewhere outside Gaza:
Daniel Seidemann: This AM, the Jerusalem Municipality demolished 4 buildings in E. Jerusalem, the area of Silwan, Ras Al Amud, Wadi Qadum. It includes a 2 story building w/ 4 families, 36 souls homeless.
Why demolitions? to fan the flames.
Why fan the flames? Ben Gvir.
Why Ben Gvir? Netanyahu.
(New Arab; this is an ongoing reporting about the Armenian Quarter): Settler in Armenian Quarter linked to group behind evictions of Palestinians
Armed US citizen spotted in confrontations between Jewish settlers and Armenians has ties to Jerusalem’s Deputy Mayor Arieh King and the Israel Land Fund, a group whose mission is to settle Jews in occupied East Jerusalem.
(Al-Jazeera) Can US visa bans deter West Bank violence by Israeli settlers?
Belated share about the human shields story: @TheBlahDalia (translating Al-Jazeera Arabic tweet): The AlJazeera journalist @AnasAlSharif0 who just reported on the use of detained civilians as human shields by idf was just targeted in an israeli airstrike that struck his house, killing his father.
On weaponizing hate:
(Scientific American) The Same Extremists Target Both Muslims and Jews
Far-right extremists shifted their online hate from Muslims to Jews in 2017, and offline hate followed the same trends
Anyway: Rifts between Biden and Netanyahu spill into public view (CNN) or Biden alludes to disagreements with Israel's Netanyahu (Reuters)
posted by cendawanita at 8:53 AM on December 13, 2023 [17 favorites]
I wrote several times about an Israeli Telegram channel called "Terrorists from Another Angle", which posts footage of dead Palestinians, corpse desecration and torture of detainees. Ha'aretz reveals today that the IDF's "Influence Department" runs a similar channel!
[...] Even though the channel's goal is obviously to imitate the better known group I mentioned earlier, it achieved very poor results - after more than two months the channel has only 5.7K subscribers, compared to more than 110K in the original group.
Another difference I found is that even though the people operating the IDF-run channel are trying hard to sound like the original group, they're not as imaginative and don't get anywhere close to the levels of depravity, sadism and perversion as the original group.
Here's a random (milder one) example from the original channel:
"Our forces eliminated another piggie. His filthy nostrils won't be able to produce any more unpleasant squealing. May we have a good day, full of abominable non-kosher meat [this is how they call dead Palestinians)
On Oct 7 casualties (adding to the news link that indicated unwillingness to investigate further): Ynet article in Hebrew: The finalized list of Oct 7 Israeli casualties - unfortunately Google Translate isn't transliterating the table, but according to @TalulaSha:
Here's a final list of the October 7 Israeli casualties. A couple statistics:
Total 1153
Civilians 785
Armed forces 368
I am sorry those lives were lost. I am also noting the final total.
From Dan Cohen: Fresh testimony reveals how Israel killed captives in Kibbutz Be’eri on October 7 - The testimony, published by Israel's Channel 12, was delivered by the sole survivor from the massacre inside one house, Hadas Dagan, a resident of Be’eri who had previously maintained her silence.
Her testimony continues where Yasmin Porat's (shared earlier) left off: While it’s unclear what the soldier and brigadier general thought was a disgrace – whether being forced to negotiate with Hamas or opening fire on a house full of captives – the fact that they shelled the house with a tank afterwards suggests the former.
Israeli shelling kills Adi Dagan
As tank shells continued to hit the house, Dagan found herself covered in blood, and saw that her husband, Adi, had been fatally wounded by the shelling, and her attempts to stop the bleeding were futile.
[...] Despite the Israeli police and military killing her husband along with the rest of the captives, and almost killing her too, rather than negotiate with the Hamas captors, Dagan does not take issue with that aspect of their conduct.
“I am angry… for us being abandoned, for us being betrayed. For the fact that we were left alone for so many hours,” she complained.
Regarding the decision to open fire on the house, she refused to condemn the Israeli army – a point repeatedly highlighted by the Channel 12 journalist.
“It’s clear that in this event lies a very heavy moral dilemma. I don’t want anyone to take this case with the very hard moral dilemma, and point their finger at the army,” Dagan said, reiterating that she and her husband were hit by Israeli army tank fire. “It’s quite clear to me that I was hit, and Adi, from the shrapnel of the… shell of the tank, because it was at the very same moment.”
In contrast to Dagan’s refusal to blame the military for killing her husband, another survivor from kibbutz Be’eri, Omri Shifrony, the nephew of Ayala ‘Aylus’ Hetzroni, criticized Brigadier General Barak Hiram, who claimed weeks before that his leadership actually saved Israeli lives, accusing him of lying.
“He didn’t have the slightest clue, even when he spoke, and that was two weeks later. He didn’t have a clue about what happened here, the slightest clue, because that’s not the truth,” Shifrony said.
For her part, Lee Naim, the Israeli journalist who covered the story, couched the shelling of the house as a challenge, despite the fact that Israeli fire apparently killed all but one hostage.
There is a news report (Hebrew) in Israel Hayom about how the survivors have now been demanding for an official inquiry: (gtranslate)
"We will not allow the cover-up to continue"
In a hotel in Tel Aviv, the families of the victims of the "Nova" party and the "Psydak" party gathered to light Hanukkah candles for the launch of the "Flowers of the Parties" headquarters.
The founding meeting was attended by over 200 bereaved families, who joined the action headquarters, in light of what they defined as the "prolonged neglect" they receive from the state. The families demand from the state recognition, rights adapted to their needs - including rights for the brothers of the party victims, who reluctantly bear the main burden of restoring the family and the establishment of a state commission of inquiry to investigate the omissions that led to the massacre.
There is no comfort. the families of the murdered
Among the representatives of the families who spoke was Erez Zarfati - the father of the late Ron Zarfati, an Air Force officer who was murdered at the "Nova" party: "We have already lost and no one looks us in the eye and takes responsibility. The party flower family headquarters will work to support the families of those murdered at parties in every possible aspect in order to restore their lives. We will work to receive tailored and broad assistance to all the families of the party victims, to establish a state commission of inquiry now. There is no longer any reason to wait, and we will not allow the continuation of the cover-up of the destruction of our world."
In the meantime, Lee Fang and Jack Paulson, based on Whatsapp activity and logs: Inside the Pro-Israel Information War - Israeli gov-led Zoom calls, WhatsApp chat logs, and other docs provide a window into the massive effort to shape online discourse and silence pro-Palestinian voices.
According to Haaretz: Of the hundreds of Palestinian detainees photographed handcuffed in the Gaza Strip in recent days, about 10 to 15 percent are Hamas operatives or are identified with the organization - according to senior security officials who spoke to Haaretz on Sunday. The IDF reported that the Palestinians who are not Hamas operatives that were arrested have been released.
According to the sources, this is not a massive surrender of entire units of Hamas disbanding and handing over their weapons to IDF fighters. Despite this, the security officials claim that the published photos of those detainees have a strong effect on the motivation of the organization's operatives who are still fighting in Gaza
No kidding, that's like 85-90% of civilians being casually sexually assaulted (through the stripping) and physical abuse (through the marching, and photographs), and for what?
Also: (Guardian) Civilians make up 61% of Gaza deaths from airstrikes, Israeli study finds - This was reporting from Haaretz (linked in the article), where it goes more in-depth including their categorizations:
According to the data, 6,747 people were killed during the October 7-26 period in Gaza, to which we can add dozens more who had not been identified at the time the numbers were tallied up. As usual, the Health Ministry did not distinguish between combatants and civilians. Accordingly, for the purpose of the analysis I will factor in the weight of three groups that can be categorized as "noncombatants": minors aged 17 and under, men of 60 and above, and women. Some will claim that Hamas recruits minors, but it's reasonable to think that the number of minors killed (based also on past data) is offset by adults aged 18-59 who were are not involved in the fighting but whom I did not include in this category.
This calculation shows that out of the total of 6,747, at least 4,594 individuals of both sexes who can be categorized as noncombatants were killed – 68 percent of the total. For the sake of caution, let us assume, as Prof. Kobi Michael from the Institute for National Security Studies argues, that errant rockets count for about 10 percent of the total rockets fired by the Gazan forces, and could do injury to their civilians, as was with the case in the strike on the Al-Ahli Hospital. If we reduce accordingly the number of noncombatants killed by Israel, the proportion decreases to 61 percent of the total, which is still far higher than the proportion of 33-42 percent for the aerial attacks in the past.
Elsewhere outside Gaza:
Daniel Seidemann: This AM, the Jerusalem Municipality demolished 4 buildings in E. Jerusalem, the area of Silwan, Ras Al Amud, Wadi Qadum. It includes a 2 story building w/ 4 families, 36 souls homeless.
Why demolitions? to fan the flames.
Why fan the flames? Ben Gvir.
Why Ben Gvir? Netanyahu.
(New Arab; this is an ongoing reporting about the Armenian Quarter): Settler in Armenian Quarter linked to group behind evictions of Palestinians
Armed US citizen spotted in confrontations between Jewish settlers and Armenians has ties to Jerusalem’s Deputy Mayor Arieh King and the Israel Land Fund, a group whose mission is to settle Jews in occupied East Jerusalem.
(Al-Jazeera) Can US visa bans deter West Bank violence by Israeli settlers?
Belated share about the human shields story: @TheBlahDalia (translating Al-Jazeera Arabic tweet): The AlJazeera journalist @AnasAlSharif0 who just reported on the use of detained civilians as human shields by idf was just targeted in an israeli airstrike that struck his house, killing his father.
On weaponizing hate:
(Scientific American) The Same Extremists Target Both Muslims and Jews
Far-right extremists shifted their online hate from Muslims to Jews in 2017, and offline hate followed the same trends
Anyway: Rifts between Biden and Netanyahu spill into public view (CNN) or Biden alludes to disagreements with Israel's Netanyahu (Reuters)
posted by cendawanita at 8:53 AM on December 13, 2023 [17 favorites]
In the meantime, Lee Fang and Jack Paulson, based on Whatsapp activity and logs: Inside the Pro-Israel Information War
I forgot to add an excerpt to show why it's worth sharing: The interaction nonetheless reflects the heightened coordination among pro-Israel forces in Silicon Valley and the global tech sector.
Following Hamas’ terror attack on Oct. 7, a loose network of pro-Israel investors, tech executives, activists, and Israeli government officials have stepped up their efforts to combat the slightest deviations from the pro-Israel script.
The WhatsApp group where Carey’s case came up serves as a kind of switchboard where the various independent players in Silicon Valley’s pro-Israel community swap ideas, identify enemies, and collaborate on ways to defend Israel in the media, academia, and the business world.
There are some more news over the last few days that I'm still waiting for a good commentary on, but nevertheless:
(Al-Arabiya) Palestine FM can’t speak to media due to US visa restrictions, Prince Faisal says
The Biden administration has imposed restrictions on Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki limiting his ability to engage with media, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan said Friday.
“The US government has imposed restrictions on his Excellency that does not allow him to respond to media questions or to engage with the media,” Prince Faisal told reporters during a press conference in Washington.
And please put a pin on Yemen - the lowkey sea route blockade/sanction is apparently enough to reroute global shipping lines, but I'm just getting claims. Actual news just reports instances of ships blockaded without really drawing any conclusion.
posted by cendawanita at 9:31 AM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I forgot to add an excerpt to show why it's worth sharing: The interaction nonetheless reflects the heightened coordination among pro-Israel forces in Silicon Valley and the global tech sector.
Following Hamas’ terror attack on Oct. 7, a loose network of pro-Israel investors, tech executives, activists, and Israeli government officials have stepped up their efforts to combat the slightest deviations from the pro-Israel script.
The WhatsApp group where Carey’s case came up serves as a kind of switchboard where the various independent players in Silicon Valley’s pro-Israel community swap ideas, identify enemies, and collaborate on ways to defend Israel in the media, academia, and the business world.
There are some more news over the last few days that I'm still waiting for a good commentary on, but nevertheless:
(Al-Arabiya) Palestine FM can’t speak to media due to US visa restrictions, Prince Faisal says
The Biden administration has imposed restrictions on Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki limiting his ability to engage with media, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan said Friday.
“The US government has imposed restrictions on his Excellency that does not allow him to respond to media questions or to engage with the media,” Prince Faisal told reporters during a press conference in Washington.
And please put a pin on Yemen - the lowkey sea route blockade/sanction is apparently enough to reroute global shipping lines, but I'm just getting claims. Actual news just reports instances of ships blockaded without really drawing any conclusion.
posted by cendawanita at 9:31 AM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
gcaptain
"Red Sea Shipping Costs Rise as Houthis Step Up Attacks"
"This narrow chokepoint, flanked by Yemen, Djibouti, and Eritrea, is crucial for global shipping and trade, with approximately $1 trillion worth of trade passing through annually,” maritime security company Dryad Global wrote following the attack on the Strinda. “Such attacks pose not only a regional geopolitical risk but a significant global economic threat.”
posted by clavdivs at 11:51 AM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Red Sea Shipping Costs Rise as Houthis Step Up Attacks"
"This narrow chokepoint, flanked by Yemen, Djibouti, and Eritrea, is crucial for global shipping and trade, with approximately $1 trillion worth of trade passing through annually,” maritime security company Dryad Global wrote following the attack on the Strinda. “Such attacks pose not only a regional geopolitical risk but a significant global economic threat.”
posted by clavdivs at 11:51 AM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Al Jazeera reports that Palestinian women, children and babies were among those killed execution-style by Israeli soldiers while sheltering in a school in northern Gaza
Blood on our hands.
We desperately need to convince to Democratic Party to stop giving Israel free weapons.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:04 PM on December 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Blood on our hands.
We desperately need to convince to Democratic Party to stop giving Israel free weapons.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:04 PM on December 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
@evanhill: CNN reports that nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since Oct. 7 have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs,” according to a new US intelligence assessment
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza
posted by nourishedbytime at 10:49 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza
posted by nourishedbytime at 10:49 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Masha Gessen had an essay in The New Yorker on Gaza: In the Shadow of the Holocaust
How the politics of memory in Europe obscures what we see in Israel and Gaza today.And then: Masha Gessen’s Hannah Arendt Prize has been canceled because of their essay on Gaza:
In the essay, published on December 9, Gessen criticizes Germany’s Israel policy (including the Bundestag’s controversial BDS resolution, which condemns the Israel boycott movement as anti-Semitic) and its politics of remembrance, and compares the plight of today’s besieged Gazans to that of the ghettoized Jews in Nazi-occupied Eastern Europe:The article does not pull punches:For the last seventeen years, Gaza has been a hyperdensely populated, impoverished, walled-in compound where only a small fraction of the population had the right to leave for even a short amount of time—in other words, a ghetto. Not like the Jewish ghetto in Venice or an inner-city ghetto in America but like a Jewish ghetto in an Eastern European country occupied by Nazi Germany. In the two months since Hamas attacked Israel, all Gazans have suffered from the barely interrupted onslaught of Israeli forces. Thousands have died. On average, a child is killed in Gaza every ten minutes. Israeli bombs have struck hospitals, maternity wards, and ambulances. Eight out of ten Gazans are now homeless, moving from one place to another, never able to get to safety.
The irony of calling for the suspension of a prize named after an anti-Totalitarian political theorist in order to appease the authoritarian government of a rogue state currently committing genocide against an already-subjugated people seems to be lost on the Bremen DIG.But apparently, almost zero interest from the press. Masha Gessen (on Twitter):
You'd think, with all the attention to the Arendt Prize debacle, I'd be inundated with media calls/texts. You'd be wrong. Not one German journalist has reached out for comment. One US journalist did. All reporting has happened with no input/reaction from me. Inaccuracies pile upposted by kmt at 4:40 AM on December 14, 2023 [17 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. There's no need to attack fellow community members or "call them out", so please don't do so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:22 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:22 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think that arguing about this situation is a pointless use of this thread. There is a popular consensus at home and abroad that what is being done to Palestinians is wrong and that the US and international arms manufacturers are complicit. The problem is that the channels of power are mostly blocked, so the powerful are free to ignore a clear, massive global consensus.
The ordinary people who, for whatever reason, want to defend, eg, the justness and necessity of Palestinian children having to wade through filthy floodwater in the winter rain while carrying a child corpse, the new worst thing I've ever seen - those people are very few and thus not very significant. The problem is the coalition of the powerful, arms manufacturers and evangelical Christian leaders who are making this thing continue because it is to their political and financial advantage.
Our business is to do whatever we can, small or large, phone calls or protest, to stop the invasion of Gaza and the attacks in the West Bank and to create the conditions for a just peace.
The thing to remember - every American leader who is supporting the bombing of Gaza is voting for annihilating the inconvenient. That's why they're so dead-set on it even when it's massively unpopular, especially the evangelicals. They believe that it's fine to kill anyone who gets in the way of their interests and they want to render these killings so normalized that we'll all look at the atrocity footage and shrug. In our terrible climate future, a lot of us will be at the sharp end - just as they say about climate disasters, you'll be reposting and commenting first, then filming it happening and then it will happen to you. By the millions, by the billions, we are all Palestinians - or at least we'd better start acting like it.
posted by Frowner at 6:06 AM on December 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
The ordinary people who, for whatever reason, want to defend, eg, the justness and necessity of Palestinian children having to wade through filthy floodwater in the winter rain while carrying a child corpse, the new worst thing I've ever seen - those people are very few and thus not very significant. The problem is the coalition of the powerful, arms manufacturers and evangelical Christian leaders who are making this thing continue because it is to their political and financial advantage.
Our business is to do whatever we can, small or large, phone calls or protest, to stop the invasion of Gaza and the attacks in the West Bank and to create the conditions for a just peace.
The thing to remember - every American leader who is supporting the bombing of Gaza is voting for annihilating the inconvenient. That's why they're so dead-set on it even when it's massively unpopular, especially the evangelicals. They believe that it's fine to kill anyone who gets in the way of their interests and they want to render these killings so normalized that we'll all look at the atrocity footage and shrug. In our terrible climate future, a lot of us will be at the sharp end - just as they say about climate disasters, you'll be reposting and commenting first, then filming it happening and then it will happen to you. By the millions, by the billions, we are all Palestinians - or at least we'd better start acting like it.
posted by Frowner at 6:06 AM on December 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
Mod note: community members?
Yes, every person on the site is a community member.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:13 AM on December 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yes, every person on the site is a community member.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:13 AM on December 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
White house staffers protesting Biden policy on Palestine
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
CNN 's Clarissa Ward is believed to be the first foreign journalist into Gaza since the war began. She has just crossed the border into Southern Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 8:13 AM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 8:13 AM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
We Are Falling Apart by Thomas Zimmer
The only thing that can defeat the reactionary mobilization against egalitarian pluralism and prevent white Christian authoritarian rule in America is a broad coalition from the Left to the center and beyond – a popular front, if you will, devoted to upholding constitutional government and liberal democracy. This coalition has always been fragile. I fear it is now disintegrating rapidly.posted by non canadian guy at 8:14 AM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
“I’m done with the Left.” I have heard variations of this sentence so many times over the past two months. From Jews who feel betrayed by the racial justice activists they saw as their allies, especially after the broad mobilization of civil society under the banner of Black Lives Matter in the summer of 2020; from Never Trump conservatives who are feeling justified to re-embrace their disdain for the Left as an overriding principle; from neighbors, parents at school, acquaintances on the playground. My personal experiences and encounters come with the usual caveats. Unfortunately, what’s been playing out publicly in the nation’s major papers and in the halls of Congress points in the same direction as my anecdotal evidence: The Israel-Hamas war is tearing the pro-democracy popular front apart. The numerical majority in this country does not want to live in a Trumpist autocracy. As long as Republicans are committed to Trump as their leader, they depend on enough conservatives, moderates, centrists, and anti-Leftists to hold their noses and make common cause with the Right anyway. Mainstream media, center-right pundits, and Democratic politicians helping the party of Trump, QAnon, and “Great Replacement” launch a neo-McCarthyist crusade, legitimizing it as a campaign against antisemitism in America – that will go a long way towards establishing the kind of permission structure by which people convince themselves that Trump is not so bad after all, or at the very least the Left is worse. We are far down the road to a very, very dark place.
Counterpunch: ‘Let It Be a Tale’: On Refaat Alareer and the Martyrdom of the Gaza Intellectual
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” said Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on October 9. In fact, Israel carried out far greater war crimes than the choking of 2.3 million people.
“No place is safe, not even hospitals and schools,” the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said on X on November 11. Things have become far worse since that statement was made.
But Israel will fail because the collective story is bigger than all of us. A nation that has produced the likes of Ghassan Kanafani, Basil al-Araj and Refaat Alareer will always produce great intellectuals, who will serve the historic role of telling the story of Palestine and her liberation.
posted by adamvasco at 8:29 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” said Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on October 9. In fact, Israel carried out far greater war crimes than the choking of 2.3 million people.
“No place is safe, not even hospitals and schools,” the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said on X on November 11. Things have become far worse since that statement was made.
But Israel will fail because the collective story is bigger than all of us. A nation that has produced the likes of Ghassan Kanafani, Basil al-Araj and Refaat Alareer will always produce great intellectuals, who will serve the historic role of telling the story of Palestine and her liberation.
posted by adamvasco at 8:29 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
BBC: Support for Hamas grows among Palestinians in West Bank - An opinion poll carried out between 22 November and 2 December by a respected Palestinian think-tank, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), found that support for Hamas had more than tripled in the West Bank compared to three months ago.
Supporters of Hamas were still in a minority, but 70% of the respondents said armed struggle was the best means of ending the Israeli occupation.
By contrast, support for President Abbas had dropped sharply following the Hamas attacks, the survey found, with more than 90% of Palestinians in the West Bank calling for his resignation.
Since the Hamas attacks, said Amjad Bushkar, "the world and the international community have put the Palestinian cause on its list of priorities."
Widely seen as corrupt and ineffective, the PA has also been unable to pay its civil servants or police since the Hamas attacks, because the war in Gaza caused a rift over the tax revenues transferred by Israel each month.
While Hamas flags and slogans multiplied here in the wake of each busload of Palestinian prisoners released by Israel in exchange for Israeli hostages held in Gaza, the PA's president and security forces were conspicuously absent.
Israel may be determined to deny Hamas power in Gaza, but here in the West Bank its influence is already spreading.
(Al-Jazeera photo gallery) Casualties mount in occupied West Bank as Israeli forces extend raids - At least 283 West Bank Palestinians, including 64 children, have been killed by Israeli fire and more than 4,000 detained since the war started, according to Palestinian officials.
(DW) Israel conflict: Who will pay for Gaza reconstruction? - This week, Israeli media reported that the country's leader Benjamin Netanyahu had told his Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that the Saudis and the UAE would be willing to pay the bill for Gaza's reconstruction. This is despite the fact that Israel has not yet laid out a plan for who would govern Gaza if it succeeded in its goal of destroying Hamas.
It has also been suggested that Europeans will pay: The EU, and Germany in particular, have been major, long-term donors for humanitarian aid into the occupied Palestinian territories. The US is another of the biggest donors and likely to be called upon to fund reconstruction.
But in both the US and Europe, insiders report that, behind the scenes, decision-makers are already asking why they should once more pay millions in taxpayer money to rebuild infrastructure likely to be bombed again in the near future.
"I have heard senior EU officials say unequivocally that Europe will not pay for the reconstruction of Gaza. (The sums of money required by Ukraine are already mind-boggling)," Gideon Rachman, chief foreign affairs commentator at the UK's Financial Times, wrote this week. "The US Congress [also] seems to be turning against all forms of foreign assistance."
(Puck News) The Biden-Bibi Divide & Reelection Jitters - After Biden issued a rare and searing public rebuke of Israel’s actions in its ongoing war against Hamas, Netanyahu tried to hang the thousands of Palestinian civilian casualties squarely around Biden’s neck—a hell of a thing to do as the president heads into his reelection campaign.
(Mondoweiss) ‘Operation Al-Aqsa Flood’ Day 69: Reports of Israeli soldier shooting women and children execution style in Gaza
(Jacobin; only 2 days old) As Israel Besieges al-Awda Hospital, War Crimes in Gaza Have Become Unremarkable - Fast forward a month and a half, and Israeli forces have now attacked and shut down Gaza’s largest hospital, bombed a convoy of ambulances, and besieged and bombed Indonesian Hospital, just a few cases out of the more than two-dozen Gazan hospitals that Israeli attacks have rendered nonfunctional. All of it has been done out in the open and, more often than not, alongside public justifications for the attacks — with devastating consequences for those trapped inside, and with a modicum of the outcry that once greeted al-Ahli’s bombing. This “unrelenting war” on the Gaza health sector, as one United Nations official has called it, continues as you read this, with Israeli forces turning their guns on al-Awda hospital in northern Gaza to little public attention.
At the time of writing, more than 240 people are trapped inside al-Awda, the last functioning hospital in northern Gaza providing maternity services, and currently in the ninth day of a siege that’s left several people dead and those inside struggling to survive. The increasingly dire situation has been provided to media in daily updates by Mohammed Salha, a monitoring manager at the hospital who has described to Jacobin the desperate conditions faced by the patients, medical staff, and families who have no way out of the facility.
Al-Awda is surrounded by snipers, according to Salha, making it impossible to move between hospital buildings, and leaving survivors corralled in a single building, sleeping far from windows and crawling on the floor to avoid being shot. Snipers have already killed two of Salha’s colleagues and a janitor who came too close to the windows, as well as a relative of a pregnant patient, who was shot in the street outside the hospital and whose body has been left to decompose, unable to be retrieved by those inside. Another, a sixteen-year-old, was also shot outside the hospital, but had his life saved by medical personnel.
[...] Meanwhile, yesterday Israeli forces stormed Kamal Adwan Hospital, also in northern Gaza, after days of besieging and bombing it, mirroring the strategy it has taken to previous assaults on Gaza’s medical facilities, and providing a possible preview of what awaits those trapped in al-Awda. Previous raids on hospitals have led to civilian deaths and horrifying scenes of patients — including children and premature babies — being left behind to die and decompose by evacuating staff.
Top Israeli leadership has previously strongly condemned attacks on hospitals, as when it accused Hamas of causing the explosion at al-Ahli. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the alleged perpetrators “barbaric terrorists,” while president Isaac Herzog said al-Ahli was “a place where lives should be saved” and laid “shame on the vile terrorists in Gaza who willfully spill the blood of the innocent.”
The ongoing siege of al-Awda is a reminder of the brutality of what has been an exceptionally savage military campaign by Israel, as well as the seemingly growing public tolerance for Israeli war crimes. Not even two months ago, the bombing of a hospital was a major outrage; now, when a public outcry is desperately needed to stop it, the siege of another hospital is just one more thread in a tapestry of violence. What crimes will become normal in another month or two?
(Telegraph) Israeli troops filmed setting fire to food supplies in Gaza - A series of viral videos of Israel Defense Forces (IDF) troops behaving poorly have created a headache for the Israeli military as it faces international outcry over its tactics in Gaza and the rising civilian death toll in its punishing war against Hamas.
The Israeli army has pledged to take disciplinary action in what it says are a handful of isolated cases.
Critics say the new videos, largely shrugged off in Israel, reflect a national mood that is highly supportive of the war in Gaza, with little empathy for the plight of Gaza’s civilians.
“The dehumanisation from the top is very much sinking down to the soldiers,” said Dror Sadot, a spokeswoman for the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem, which has long documented Israeli abuses against Palestinians.
(Prospect) Israel Rounds Up Palestinians for Social Media Posts
Oh I see: (Haaretz) Spread of Disease in Gaza Endangers the Hostages Held by Hamas, and Will Soon Even Risk Israel - Gazans are at risk of a wide range of diseases that can't be limited to political borders. 'I estimate that within a few weeks we'll begin to feel it in Israel. Initially, it will be in the southern locales and then will spread by the soldiers,' says a senior health scholar at the Ben-Gurion University's School of Public Health
posted by cendawanita at 9:00 AM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Supporters of Hamas were still in a minority, but 70% of the respondents said armed struggle was the best means of ending the Israeli occupation.
By contrast, support for President Abbas had dropped sharply following the Hamas attacks, the survey found, with more than 90% of Palestinians in the West Bank calling for his resignation.
Since the Hamas attacks, said Amjad Bushkar, "the world and the international community have put the Palestinian cause on its list of priorities."
Widely seen as corrupt and ineffective, the PA has also been unable to pay its civil servants or police since the Hamas attacks, because the war in Gaza caused a rift over the tax revenues transferred by Israel each month.
While Hamas flags and slogans multiplied here in the wake of each busload of Palestinian prisoners released by Israel in exchange for Israeli hostages held in Gaza, the PA's president and security forces were conspicuously absent.
Israel may be determined to deny Hamas power in Gaza, but here in the West Bank its influence is already spreading.
(Al-Jazeera photo gallery) Casualties mount in occupied West Bank as Israeli forces extend raids - At least 283 West Bank Palestinians, including 64 children, have been killed by Israeli fire and more than 4,000 detained since the war started, according to Palestinian officials.
(DW) Israel conflict: Who will pay for Gaza reconstruction? - This week, Israeli media reported that the country's leader Benjamin Netanyahu had told his Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that the Saudis and the UAE would be willing to pay the bill for Gaza's reconstruction. This is despite the fact that Israel has not yet laid out a plan for who would govern Gaza if it succeeded in its goal of destroying Hamas.
It has also been suggested that Europeans will pay: The EU, and Germany in particular, have been major, long-term donors for humanitarian aid into the occupied Palestinian territories. The US is another of the biggest donors and likely to be called upon to fund reconstruction.
But in both the US and Europe, insiders report that, behind the scenes, decision-makers are already asking why they should once more pay millions in taxpayer money to rebuild infrastructure likely to be bombed again in the near future.
"I have heard senior EU officials say unequivocally that Europe will not pay for the reconstruction of Gaza. (The sums of money required by Ukraine are already mind-boggling)," Gideon Rachman, chief foreign affairs commentator at the UK's Financial Times, wrote this week. "The US Congress [also] seems to be turning against all forms of foreign assistance."
(Puck News) The Biden-Bibi Divide & Reelection Jitters - After Biden issued a rare and searing public rebuke of Israel’s actions in its ongoing war against Hamas, Netanyahu tried to hang the thousands of Palestinian civilian casualties squarely around Biden’s neck—a hell of a thing to do as the president heads into his reelection campaign.
(Mondoweiss) ‘Operation Al-Aqsa Flood’ Day 69: Reports of Israeli soldier shooting women and children execution style in Gaza
(Jacobin; only 2 days old) As Israel Besieges al-Awda Hospital, War Crimes in Gaza Have Become Unremarkable - Fast forward a month and a half, and Israeli forces have now attacked and shut down Gaza’s largest hospital, bombed a convoy of ambulances, and besieged and bombed Indonesian Hospital, just a few cases out of the more than two-dozen Gazan hospitals that Israeli attacks have rendered nonfunctional. All of it has been done out in the open and, more often than not, alongside public justifications for the attacks — with devastating consequences for those trapped inside, and with a modicum of the outcry that once greeted al-Ahli’s bombing. This “unrelenting war” on the Gaza health sector, as one United Nations official has called it, continues as you read this, with Israeli forces turning their guns on al-Awda hospital in northern Gaza to little public attention.
At the time of writing, more than 240 people are trapped inside al-Awda, the last functioning hospital in northern Gaza providing maternity services, and currently in the ninth day of a siege that’s left several people dead and those inside struggling to survive. The increasingly dire situation has been provided to media in daily updates by Mohammed Salha, a monitoring manager at the hospital who has described to Jacobin the desperate conditions faced by the patients, medical staff, and families who have no way out of the facility.
Al-Awda is surrounded by snipers, according to Salha, making it impossible to move between hospital buildings, and leaving survivors corralled in a single building, sleeping far from windows and crawling on the floor to avoid being shot. Snipers have already killed two of Salha’s colleagues and a janitor who came too close to the windows, as well as a relative of a pregnant patient, who was shot in the street outside the hospital and whose body has been left to decompose, unable to be retrieved by those inside. Another, a sixteen-year-old, was also shot outside the hospital, but had his life saved by medical personnel.
[...] Meanwhile, yesterday Israeli forces stormed Kamal Adwan Hospital, also in northern Gaza, after days of besieging and bombing it, mirroring the strategy it has taken to previous assaults on Gaza’s medical facilities, and providing a possible preview of what awaits those trapped in al-Awda. Previous raids on hospitals have led to civilian deaths and horrifying scenes of patients — including children and premature babies — being left behind to die and decompose by evacuating staff.
Top Israeli leadership has previously strongly condemned attacks on hospitals, as when it accused Hamas of causing the explosion at al-Ahli. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the alleged perpetrators “barbaric terrorists,” while president Isaac Herzog said al-Ahli was “a place where lives should be saved” and laid “shame on the vile terrorists in Gaza who willfully spill the blood of the innocent.”
The ongoing siege of al-Awda is a reminder of the brutality of what has been an exceptionally savage military campaign by Israel, as well as the seemingly growing public tolerance for Israeli war crimes. Not even two months ago, the bombing of a hospital was a major outrage; now, when a public outcry is desperately needed to stop it, the siege of another hospital is just one more thread in a tapestry of violence. What crimes will become normal in another month or two?
(Telegraph) Israeli troops filmed setting fire to food supplies in Gaza - A series of viral videos of Israel Defense Forces (IDF) troops behaving poorly have created a headache for the Israeli military as it faces international outcry over its tactics in Gaza and the rising civilian death toll in its punishing war against Hamas.
The Israeli army has pledged to take disciplinary action in what it says are a handful of isolated cases.
Critics say the new videos, largely shrugged off in Israel, reflect a national mood that is highly supportive of the war in Gaza, with little empathy for the plight of Gaza’s civilians.
“The dehumanisation from the top is very much sinking down to the soldiers,” said Dror Sadot, a spokeswoman for the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem, which has long documented Israeli abuses against Palestinians.
(Prospect) Israel Rounds Up Palestinians for Social Media Posts
Oh I see: (Haaretz) Spread of Disease in Gaza Endangers the Hostages Held by Hamas, and Will Soon Even Risk Israel - Gazans are at risk of a wide range of diseases that can't be limited to political borders. 'I estimate that within a few weeks we'll begin to feel it in Israel. Initially, it will be in the southern locales and then will spread by the soldiers,' says a senior health scholar at the Ben-Gurion University's School of Public Health
posted by cendawanita at 9:00 AM on December 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
I agree it's not worth arguing, in the sense that it's unlikely anyone participating directly will be persuaded of anything they weren't at least predisposed to accept. But we are co-creating a weblog that anyone can read, and I don't think the opinions of ordinary people are so irrelevant that it's undamaging to have rationalisations of atrocities posted in public for all to see, given equal weight and status to that given every other comment.
The ordinary people who, for whatever reason, want to defend, eg, the justness and necessity of Palestinian children having to wade through filthy floodwater in the winter rain while carrying a child corpse, the new worst thing I've ever seen - those people are very few and thus not very significant. The problem is the coalition of the powerful, arms manufacturers and evangelical Christian leaders who are making this thing continue because it is to their political and financial advantage.
I am afraid that is more optimistic a view of the situation than I'd take: I completely agree with your characterisation of ruling-class behaviour and motivations. But I'm unfortunately surrounded by plenty of ordinary people who are not clear on what's happening, or who do accept rationalisations of the sort being offered in this thread. I'm not so sure they are insignificant. For one, many of them have real power of one form or another, while not at the level I think you're talking about, and it's painful to witness how it gets exercised IRL in silencing (more or less nastily) public expressions of the obvious. More abstractly: evidently the opinions of ordinary people do matter to some degree, or there wouldn't be such outrageously intense efforts to manipulate those opinions.
But to sit, say, in a union meeting about whether we will try to pressure our employer to drop some partnerships with arms manufacturers, and see everyone speaking in support of this have to tiptoe so circuitously to their conclusion that it's barely possible to follow them, even though almost everyone in the room agrees, is a thing to behold. It should, at this point, be easy to talk about Gaza. I accept it was a bit harder a couple of months ago, but there's no argument now. And it's not in fact easy: instead, there were articulate people in a relatively sympathetic environment tiptoeing around genocide because the perceived social risk of speaking up about this one particular thing, unlike any other, is too high. Another thing to behold: I asked a colleague --- a Palestinian colleague --- why he deleted his facebook account, and was told that, although it's the most reliable way to check on family back home, he had to remove the temptation to post publicly because more senior colleagues with power over his job security are also vocal proponents of the view that the right of the Israeli government to defend its citizens extends to that. One thing like that after another. Maybe not everyone is surrounded by insane people, and I know that e.g. polling where I live indicates majority support for a proper ceasefire. But to me it seems like casual tolerance for the absolutely abhorrent is now a commonplace, buttressed by mountains of hypocrisy and bullshit, and the effect is that that majority is, uniquely to this situation, extremely shy, relative to the scale of the horror, about calling this shit what it is. So I don't think we should just let propaganda of that sort fly, or give specific people a pass to propound it for weeks.
posted by busted_crayons at 9:04 AM on December 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
The ordinary people who, for whatever reason, want to defend, eg, the justness and necessity of Palestinian children having to wade through filthy floodwater in the winter rain while carrying a child corpse, the new worst thing I've ever seen - those people are very few and thus not very significant. The problem is the coalition of the powerful, arms manufacturers and evangelical Christian leaders who are making this thing continue because it is to their political and financial advantage.
I am afraid that is more optimistic a view of the situation than I'd take: I completely agree with your characterisation of ruling-class behaviour and motivations. But I'm unfortunately surrounded by plenty of ordinary people who are not clear on what's happening, or who do accept rationalisations of the sort being offered in this thread. I'm not so sure they are insignificant. For one, many of them have real power of one form or another, while not at the level I think you're talking about, and it's painful to witness how it gets exercised IRL in silencing (more or less nastily) public expressions of the obvious. More abstractly: evidently the opinions of ordinary people do matter to some degree, or there wouldn't be such outrageously intense efforts to manipulate those opinions.
But to sit, say, in a union meeting about whether we will try to pressure our employer to drop some partnerships with arms manufacturers, and see everyone speaking in support of this have to tiptoe so circuitously to their conclusion that it's barely possible to follow them, even though almost everyone in the room agrees, is a thing to behold. It should, at this point, be easy to talk about Gaza. I accept it was a bit harder a couple of months ago, but there's no argument now. And it's not in fact easy: instead, there were articulate people in a relatively sympathetic environment tiptoeing around genocide because the perceived social risk of speaking up about this one particular thing, unlike any other, is too high. Another thing to behold: I asked a colleague --- a Palestinian colleague --- why he deleted his facebook account, and was told that, although it's the most reliable way to check on family back home, he had to remove the temptation to post publicly because more senior colleagues with power over his job security are also vocal proponents of the view that the right of the Israeli government to defend its citizens extends to that. One thing like that after another. Maybe not everyone is surrounded by insane people, and I know that e.g. polling where I live indicates majority support for a proper ceasefire. But to me it seems like casual tolerance for the absolutely abhorrent is now a commonplace, buttressed by mountains of hypocrisy and bullshit, and the effect is that that majority is, uniquely to this situation, extremely shy, relative to the scale of the horror, about calling this shit what it is. So I don't think we should just let propaganda of that sort fly, or give specific people a pass to propound it for weeks.
posted by busted_crayons at 9:04 AM on December 14, 2023 [21 favorites]
A teacher in Georgia threatened to murder a seventh-grader after she said she found his Israeli flag offensive "due to Israelis killing Palestinians".
"I will drag her ass into the parking lot, slit her fucking throat and kill her."
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:10 AM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
"I will drag her ass into the parking lot, slit her fucking throat and kill her."
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:10 AM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
“I’m done with the Left.” I have heard variations of this sentence so many times over the past two months. From Jews who feel betrayed by the racial justice activists they saw as their allies, especially after the broad mobilization of civil society under the banner of Black Lives Matter in the summer of 2020; from Never Trump conservatives who are feeling justified to re-embrace their disdain for the Left as an overriding principle; from neighbors, parents at school, acquaintances on the playground
This characterization seems to exclude a group that I belong to which I believe is sizable (at least as large as "Jews who feel betrayed by racial justice activists")--people who feel deeply frustrated and also heartbroken that their country is forcing them to be complicit in an ongoing genocide that is deeply unpopular and that we seem to have no power at all to stop. It certainly has left me very skeptical of motives of the so-called pro-democracy left.
Mainstream media, center-right pundits, and Democratic politicians helping the party of Trump, QAnon, and “Great Replacement” launch a neo-McCarthyist crusade, legitimizing it as a campaign against antisemitism in America – that will go a long way towards establishing the kind of permission structure by which people convince themselves that Trump is not so bad after all, or at the very least the Left is worse. We are far down the road to a very, very dark place.
I find this kind of take from white liberals to be so condescending! I'm an immigrant, a queer person, a nonbinary person, a person who can give birth, a person of color--literally, I have everything to lose from authoritarian Trumpism. It's not that I think he's not so bad at all or that "the Left is worse" (what Left?). I just want to feel listened to any level by the people who claim to represent me who are currently not only sanctioning but heartily financially supporting an evil and unthinkably violent genocide and labeling any dissent as either unpatriotic or anti-Semitic. Biden's press secretary called the people I've marched with in protest of the genocide the same as the Charlottesville neo-Nazis. It feels morally repulsive for me to vote for someone who views me and people like me with such contempt. Is that unreasonable?
posted by armadillo1224 at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
This characterization seems to exclude a group that I belong to which I believe is sizable (at least as large as "Jews who feel betrayed by racial justice activists")--people who feel deeply frustrated and also heartbroken that their country is forcing them to be complicit in an ongoing genocide that is deeply unpopular and that we seem to have no power at all to stop. It certainly has left me very skeptical of motives of the so-called pro-democracy left.
Mainstream media, center-right pundits, and Democratic politicians helping the party of Trump, QAnon, and “Great Replacement” launch a neo-McCarthyist crusade, legitimizing it as a campaign against antisemitism in America – that will go a long way towards establishing the kind of permission structure by which people convince themselves that Trump is not so bad after all, or at the very least the Left is worse. We are far down the road to a very, very dark place.
I find this kind of take from white liberals to be so condescending! I'm an immigrant, a queer person, a nonbinary person, a person who can give birth, a person of color--literally, I have everything to lose from authoritarian Trumpism. It's not that I think he's not so bad at all or that "the Left is worse" (what Left?). I just want to feel listened to any level by the people who claim to represent me who are currently not only sanctioning but heartily financially supporting an evil and unthinkably violent genocide and labeling any dissent as either unpatriotic or anti-Semitic. Biden's press secretary called the people I've marched with in protest of the genocide the same as the Charlottesville neo-Nazis. It feels morally repulsive for me to vote for someone who views me and people like me with such contempt. Is that unreasonable?
posted by armadillo1224 at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
A teacher in Georgia threatened to murder a seventh-grader after she said she found his Israeli flag offensive "due to Israelis killing Palestinians".
Yes, this is a terrible thing; no, this is not the same as a state actor committing genocide with the active support of many of the world's most powerful governments, and some lunatics doing lunatic shit in response to someone's display of symbolism is not the same as systematic silencing of criticism of same genocide. It's a terrible thing, but it's a different terrible thing, and in the context of a discussion about the assault on Gaza, what is the point of this anecdote? What is it illustrating?
posted by busted_crayons at 4:25 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, this is a terrible thing; no, this is not the same as a state actor committing genocide with the active support of many of the world's most powerful governments, and some lunatics doing lunatic shit in response to someone's display of symbolism is not the same as systematic silencing of criticism of same genocide. It's a terrible thing, but it's a different terrible thing, and in the context of a discussion about the assault on Gaza, what is the point of this anecdote? What is it illustrating?
posted by busted_crayons at 4:25 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sorry, adrienneleigh, I misinterpreted the quote and should have clicked the link, so my preceding comment doesn't make much sense.
I thought the point was that a teacher took insane exception to the display of an Israeli flag, and threatened the student; this would be a terrible incident for the same reason the real incident is terrible, but it wouldn't be that indicative of much, since in that instance, the powers that be would simply come down on the teacher, as appropriate. In the present climate, the actual incident, with the roles reversed from my misreading, is more illustrative of what's going on in general, and hence very relevant. I'm sorry; I should have looked carefully before reacting.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:38 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought the point was that a teacher took insane exception to the display of an Israeli flag, and threatened the student; this would be a terrible incident for the same reason the real incident is terrible, but it wouldn't be that indicative of much, since in that instance, the powers that be would simply come down on the teacher, as appropriate. In the present climate, the actual incident, with the roles reversed from my misreading, is more illustrative of what's going on in general, and hence very relevant. I'm sorry; I should have looked carefully before reacting.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:38 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
busted_crayons: Thank you, because i was really confused by your first comment!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:46 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:46 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza are staying connected to the world via donated eSIMs
AJplus has more
posted by adamvasco at 10:41 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
AJplus has more
posted by adamvasco at 10:41 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
A brief history of the Israeli military's use of Palestinians as human shields. A 🧵
(_ZachFoster on Twitter. Thread with lots of images and links.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:10 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
(_ZachFoster on Twitter. Thread with lots of images and links.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:10 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
NYTimes: Satellite Imagery and Video Shows Some Gazan Cemeteries Razed by Israeli Forces (archived)
Lancet: No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health
Intercept: The Biden administration has sent a so-called “Tiger Team” of specialists to the Pentagon to accelerate weapons shipments to Israel (archived)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:16 AM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Lancet: No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health
Intercept: The Biden administration has sent a so-called “Tiger Team” of specialists to the Pentagon to accelerate weapons shipments to Israel (archived)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:16 AM on December 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
New news with the news:
- Just in: Ambulance dispatched to reach ‘critically injured’ Al Jazeera journalist Samer Abudaqa
Al Jazeera’s Tareq Abu Azzoum, reporting from Rafah, says the ambulance had to receive prior “approval” from Israeli forces before it could reach Abudaqa, wounded in what was believed to have been an Israeli drone attack in Khan Younis.
Abudaqa had been “suffering … for more than a couple of hours” and “bleeding on the ground” as medical teams could not immediately get to him, Abu Azzoum said.
His medical condition remains unclear at this time.
According to Al Jazeera’s Wael Dahdouh, who was also injured in the attack, Abudaqa was “critically injured”, Abu Azzoum added.
Nir Hasson: (Gtranslate from Hebrew) Journalist Mustafa Harof was threatened with live fire and brutally beaten by police officers in East Jerusalem. He is hospitalized with serious head injuries. It is not yet clear what his condition is.
(New Yorker) The War in Gaza Has Been Deadly for Journalists
What can we say about what has happened to journalists in this conflict?
The Israel-Gaza war has been the deadliest conflict for journalists that C.P.J. has ever recorded, in terms of documenting attacks on the press. That’s because it’s the highest number of journalists killed in a conflict in such a short period of time.
How long have you been documenting these things?
More than thirty years.
It’s now been slightly more than two months. What can we say definitively about how many journalists have been killed?
As of December 8th, at least sixty-three journalists and media workers have been confirmed killed. Fifty-six are Palestinians, four are Israeli, and three are Lebanese.
Four Israeli journalists were killed in the October 7th attacks by Hamas. The vast majority have been killed in Gaza by Israeli strikes, and three Lebanese journalists were killed reporting in Lebanon, on the Lebanese-Israeli border.
You can join their statement and be a signatory here: For Our Colleagues
Clarissa Ward files her story with the CNN, so I guess that validates all the on-the-ground journalism (to her credit, she does credit their work all throughout the last two months):
Video - CNN visited a Gaza hospital. This is what we saw. She does some solid contextualizing as well, I thought, and they've kept it strictly on the humanitarian crisis (which is about the best as I can hope for)
Article - Looking into the eyes of an orphan in Gaza
The first link I linked here is to the current liveblog. I need to go sleep but if I can direct your attention to the following big sprawling developments yet to be concluded in any particular direction, to be filed under one theme: regional war. In particular: Yemenis continued blockade; Israel's diplomacy with Lebanon even as military strikes continue (so there's logistics implications); and the fact that the US diplomatic corps present in the region publicly includes military personnel.
I'm also overlooking some particular fresh rounds of attacks that's been marked today by coverage of Israeli military conduct, such as desecration of places of worship and supposed official reprisals, though the word on the Israeli ground this was lip service for the international audience.
posted by cendawanita at 9:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
- Just in: Ambulance dispatched to reach ‘critically injured’ Al Jazeera journalist Samer Abudaqa
Al Jazeera’s Tareq Abu Azzoum, reporting from Rafah, says the ambulance had to receive prior “approval” from Israeli forces before it could reach Abudaqa, wounded in what was believed to have been an Israeli drone attack in Khan Younis.
Abudaqa had been “suffering … for more than a couple of hours” and “bleeding on the ground” as medical teams could not immediately get to him, Abu Azzoum said.
His medical condition remains unclear at this time.
According to Al Jazeera’s Wael Dahdouh, who was also injured in the attack, Abudaqa was “critically injured”, Abu Azzoum added.
Nir Hasson: (Gtranslate from Hebrew) Journalist Mustafa Harof was threatened with live fire and brutally beaten by police officers in East Jerusalem. He is hospitalized with serious head injuries. It is not yet clear what his condition is.
(New Yorker) The War in Gaza Has Been Deadly for Journalists
What can we say about what has happened to journalists in this conflict?
The Israel-Gaza war has been the deadliest conflict for journalists that C.P.J. has ever recorded, in terms of documenting attacks on the press. That’s because it’s the highest number of journalists killed in a conflict in such a short period of time.
How long have you been documenting these things?
More than thirty years.
It’s now been slightly more than two months. What can we say definitively about how many journalists have been killed?
As of December 8th, at least sixty-three journalists and media workers have been confirmed killed. Fifty-six are Palestinians, four are Israeli, and three are Lebanese.
Four Israeli journalists were killed in the October 7th attacks by Hamas. The vast majority have been killed in Gaza by Israeli strikes, and three Lebanese journalists were killed reporting in Lebanon, on the Lebanese-Israeli border.
You can join their statement and be a signatory here: For Our Colleagues
Clarissa Ward files her story with the CNN, so I guess that validates all the on-the-ground journalism (to her credit, she does credit their work all throughout the last two months):
Video - CNN visited a Gaza hospital. This is what we saw. She does some solid contextualizing as well, I thought, and they've kept it strictly on the humanitarian crisis (which is about the best as I can hope for)
Article - Looking into the eyes of an orphan in Gaza
The first link I linked here is to the current liveblog. I need to go sleep but if I can direct your attention to the following big sprawling developments yet to be concluded in any particular direction, to be filed under one theme: regional war. In particular: Yemenis continued blockade; Israel's diplomacy with Lebanon even as military strikes continue (so there's logistics implications); and the fact that the US diplomatic corps present in the region publicly includes military personnel.
I'm also overlooking some particular fresh rounds of attacks that's been marked today by coverage of Israeli military conduct, such as desecration of places of worship and supposed official reprisals, though the word on the Israeli ground this was lip service for the international audience.
posted by cendawanita at 9:24 AM on December 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
IDF mistakenly shoots and kills 3 Israeli hostages in Gaza
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on December 15, 2023
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on December 15, 2023
"mistakenly"
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:55 PM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:55 PM on December 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Follow-on to cendawanita's last comment:
"Al Jazeera English correspondent in Gaza Tareq Abu Azzum just reported that his colleague cameraman Samer Abu Daqqa has passed away after being shelled by Israeli forces. Israel then prevented ambulances from reaching him. Samer bled out for almost six hours."
Lama Al-Arian on Twitter
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:26 PM on December 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
"Al Jazeera English correspondent in Gaza Tareq Abu Azzum just reported that his colleague cameraman Samer Abu Daqqa has passed away after being shelled by Israeli forces. Israel then prevented ambulances from reaching him. Samer bled out for almost six hours."
Lama Al-Arian on Twitter
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:26 PM on December 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
"mistakenly"
The IDF says three Israeli hostages who were mistakenly killed in Gaza by the Israeli military had been holding up a white cloth on a stick
A clear provocation.
Actually kind of surprised they didn’t just roll the bodies into a pile of Palestinians.
posted by Artw at 5:21 AM on December 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
The IDF says three Israeli hostages who were mistakenly killed in Gaza by the Israeli military had been holding up a white cloth on a stick
A clear provocation.
Actually kind of surprised they didn’t just roll the bodies into a pile of Palestinians.
posted by Artw at 5:21 AM on December 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is literally a British MP posting about her family trapped in Gaza:
It’s been a horrible few days. My family in the Catholic Church in Gaza city are reporting white phosphorous and gunfire into their compound. The bin collector and the janitor have been shot and their bodies are laying outside and remain uncollected. 1/2
Then there was the Practical Preparation for Gaza Settlement Conference held by a bunch of settler organizations, some of which are apparently drawing up plans for beach-side housing in Gaza.
How American Citizens Are Leading The Rise in Settler Violence, which is a mealy-mouthed article that doesn't talk about the explicitly racist white Americans who move to Israel, but it's about what you'd expect. We export our homophobic poison to Africa and along with bombs we send white nationalists to Israel.
American companies and American politicians sending aid to Israel are actively complicit; none of this "oh but the Biden administration said X" business matters a hair if we're sending tons of aid. Drowned in blood. This is really where language fails.
posted by Frowner at 5:49 AM on December 16, 2023 [24 favorites]
It’s been a horrible few days. My family in the Catholic Church in Gaza city are reporting white phosphorous and gunfire into their compound. The bin collector and the janitor have been shot and their bodies are laying outside and remain uncollected. 1/2
Then there was the Practical Preparation for Gaza Settlement Conference held by a bunch of settler organizations, some of which are apparently drawing up plans for beach-side housing in Gaza.
How American Citizens Are Leading The Rise in Settler Violence, which is a mealy-mouthed article that doesn't talk about the explicitly racist white Americans who move to Israel, but it's about what you'd expect. We export our homophobic poison to Africa and along with bombs we send white nationalists to Israel.
American companies and American politicians sending aid to Israel are actively complicit; none of this "oh but the Biden administration said X" business matters a hair if we're sending tons of aid. Drowned in blood. This is really where language fails.
posted by Frowner at 5:49 AM on December 16, 2023 [24 favorites]
since in that instance, the powers that be would simply come down on the teacher, as appropriate. In the present climate, the actual incident, with the roles reversed from my misreading, is more illustrative of what's going on in general, and hence very relevant.
The teacher was arrested, charged, and hasn’t been back to the school (presumably due to disciplinary action or quitting). What is the appropriate action that you feel hasn’t taken place?
posted by bq at 1:47 PM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The teacher was arrested, charged, and hasn’t been back to the school (presumably due to disciplinary action or quitting). What is the appropriate action that you feel hasn’t taken place?
posted by bq at 1:47 PM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The teacher was arrested, charged, and hasn’t been back to the school (presumably due to disciplinary action or quitting). What is the appropriate action that you feel hasn’t taken place?I mean, speaking personally, i'd like it if there were even ONE national news story about this (or one about Eve Gerber, wife of a Harvard professor and former Obama advisor, terrorizing a grad student for wearing a scarf) given how many we are getting about university presidents and how Jewish students are upset that there are pro-Palestine protests happening on campus at all.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:21 PM on December 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, speaking personally, i'd like it if there were even ONE national news story about this (or one about Eve Gerber, wife of a Harvard professor and former Obama advisor, terrorizing a grad student for wearing a scarf) given how many we are getting about university presidents and how Jewish students are upset that there are pro-Palestine protests happening on campus at all.
If you google the dude's name, you get an entire page full of national stories about it, including CNN, USA Today, and so on. It has not lacked for attention in the press.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:30 PM on December 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you google the dude's name, you get an entire page full of national stories about it, including CNN, USA Today, and so on. It has not lacked for attention in the press.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:30 PM on December 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Okay, that's my mistake on the Georgia incident. I started looking three days ago when it happened, but it looks like national news finally picked it up yesterday.
(The Eve Gerber story still hasn't hit any of the real mainstream news sources, although the Daily Beast and the New York Post (lmao, do you know how racist you have to be for the New York Post to call you racist???) have covered it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:49 PM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
(The Eve Gerber story still hasn't hit any of the real mainstream news sources, although the Daily Beast and the New York Post (lmao, do you know how racist you have to be for the New York Post to call you racist???) have covered it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:49 PM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The IOF is seriously escalating in the West Bank and has been for weeks now. Today they invaded a Palestinian theatre, detaining and torturing staff as well as smashing and robbing the facilities. There's a video interview with one of the staff linked below:
DemocracyNow on Twitter
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:08 PM on December 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
DemocracyNow on Twitter
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:08 PM on December 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
The hostage story gets worse…
The three hostages emerged without shirts from a building tens of yards away from the Israeli soldiers, bearing a stick with a white cloth, the military said. One soldier, believing the men posed a threat, opened fire, killing two of them and wounding the third, the early investigation found.
The third hostage fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard, the military said. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was shot and killed, the military statement said.
And this is the most flattering to the IDF version of the story possible that they hunted and killed the third hostage.
posted by Artw at 5:28 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
The three hostages emerged without shirts from a building tens of yards away from the Israeli soldiers, bearing a stick with a white cloth, the military said. One soldier, believing the men posed a threat, opened fire, killing two of them and wounding the third, the early investigation found.
The third hostage fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard, the military said. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was shot and killed, the military statement said.
And this is the most flattering to the IDF version of the story possible that they hunted and killed the third hostage.
posted by Artw at 5:28 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
White flag deaths are not a new thing. I wonder if anything will be done now that the victims are Israelis, not Palestinians.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:18 PM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:18 PM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is a bit more information the NYT reporting left out - initial IDF probe on TimesofIsrael:
The battalion commander then realized that the appearance of the third man was unusual, and it was revealed to be an Israeli hostage. All three bodies were collected and taken to Israel to be identified.
The soldier who immediately opened fire upon identifying the three men did so against protocols, as did the second soldier who killed the third man, according to the officer.
Still, the IDF said it understands what led the soldiers to do so.
In Shejaiya, the senior officer says the IDF has not identified any Palestinian civilians in recent days.
The officer says troops have killed at least 38 Palestinian terror operatives in Shejaiya in recent days.
The only people seen wearing civilian clothing have been Hamas operatives, often unarmed. The operatives collect weapons left behind in various buildings, open fire at troops, and then flee again unarmed to another building.
The IDF has also encountered several seemingly unarmed civilians in Shejaiya, who later turned out to be Hamas suicide bombers.
There have also been several attempts by Hamas in the area to lure soldiers into an ambush.
The scenario itself, of hostages walking around in a battle zone, was never taken into account by the IDF.
---
Shejaiya has been the site of intense combat combat operations - this noteworthy clip is the kind of room by room clearing the IDF is engaged in. The Hebrew text on the video says "Video documentation of a Yahalom soldier engagement with a terrorist in Sajaiya area". The IDF soldier gets hit by a grenade, despite significant bleeding decides his best of survival is to push forward and take out the Hamas terrorist in the next room.
posted by xdvesper at 8:21 PM on December 16, 2023
The battalion commander then realized that the appearance of the third man was unusual, and it was revealed to be an Israeli hostage. All three bodies were collected and taken to Israel to be identified.
The soldier who immediately opened fire upon identifying the three men did so against protocols, as did the second soldier who killed the third man, according to the officer.
Still, the IDF said it understands what led the soldiers to do so.
In Shejaiya, the senior officer says the IDF has not identified any Palestinian civilians in recent days.
The officer says troops have killed at least 38 Palestinian terror operatives in Shejaiya in recent days.
The only people seen wearing civilian clothing have been Hamas operatives, often unarmed. The operatives collect weapons left behind in various buildings, open fire at troops, and then flee again unarmed to another building.
The IDF has also encountered several seemingly unarmed civilians in Shejaiya, who later turned out to be Hamas suicide bombers.
There have also been several attempts by Hamas in the area to lure soldiers into an ambush.
The scenario itself, of hostages walking around in a battle zone, was never taken into account by the IDF.
---
Shejaiya has been the site of intense combat combat operations - this noteworthy clip is the kind of room by room clearing the IDF is engaged in. The Hebrew text on the video says "Video documentation of a Yahalom soldier engagement with a terrorist in Sajaiya area". The IDF soldier gets hit by a grenade, despite significant bleeding decides his best of survival is to push forward and take out the Hamas terrorist in the next room.
posted by xdvesper at 8:21 PM on December 16, 2023
The soldier who immediately opened fire upon identifying the three men did so against protocols, as did the second soldier who killed the third man, according to the officer.
What kind of military would have it in their protocols?
Still, the IDF said it understands what led the soldiers to do so.
Ah yes. That culture felt like the background that informed much of the HRW report mdonkeybenjamin linked. And that was 2009.
posted by cendawanita at 8:28 PM on December 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
What kind of military would have it in their protocols?
Still, the IDF said it understands what led the soldiers to do so.
Ah yes. That culture felt like the background that informed much of the HRW report mdonkeybenjamin linked. And that was 2009.
posted by cendawanita at 8:28 PM on December 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
In Shejaiya, the senior officer says the IDF has not identified any Palestinian civilians in recent days.
Hilarious. You know, in the flames running up the side of one's face sort of way. I can't imagine why the IDF would not identify anyone they'd killed as a civilian.
posted by bcd at 9:23 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Hilarious. You know, in the flames running up the side of one's face sort of way. I can't imagine why the IDF would not identify anyone they'd killed as a civilian.
posted by bcd at 9:23 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
There is a bit more information the NYT reporting left out
It is an unspeakable disgrace that someone would try to explain away or dismiss what all can see for themselves.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:13 PM on December 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
It is an unspeakable disgrace that someone would try to explain away or dismiss what all can see for themselves.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:13 PM on December 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
xdvesper: several Israeli veterans are disputing the reporting as a CYA by the higher-ups, and report that "shoot everything that moves" is the usual ROE. Here's one example (SanaSaeed on Twitter, quoting an Israeli veteran)
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:13 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:13 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
AJE: PA health minister seeks probe into deadly Israeli raid on Gaza hospital
Palestinian Health Minister Mai al-Kaila has called for an “urgent probe” after Israeli forces were accused of crushing Palestinians, including wounded patients, using bulldozers in the yard of Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:31 AM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
On Saturday, doctors and other witnesses said Israeli forces bulldozed tents housing displaced Palestinians near the hospital – one of the 11 hospitals still functioning inside Gaza since Israel launched its military offensive on October 7 – and crushed them to death.
Witnesses told Al Jazeera that civilians were deliberately targeted.
“People were buried alive using bulldozers. Who could do that? All those who committed this crime should be brought to justice and taken to the international criminal court,” a witness said.
There is a bit more information the NYT reporting left out
so it turns out the “information left out” is that the idf is killing everyone they see, armed or not? i don’t think that’s the mitigating circumstance you think it is
posted by dis_integration at 6:17 AM on December 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
so it turns out the “information left out” is that the idf is killing everyone they see, armed or not? i don’t think that’s the mitigating circumstance you think it is
posted by dis_integration at 6:17 AM on December 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
Is there anyone who actually assumes the IDF *isn’t* just killing everything that moves? It’s rather blindingly obvious.
I’d have though the difference of opinion would be over if that is okay because they are US cop style “threatened”.
posted by Artw at 6:47 AM on December 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
I’d have though the difference of opinion would be over if that is okay because they are US cop style “threatened”.
posted by Artw at 6:47 AM on December 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
Via Euronews: In a joint article published in British weekly the Sunday Times and Germany’s Welt am Sonntag, UK Foreign Secretary David Cameron and German Foreign Affairs Minister Annalena Baerbock called for a ceasefire.
At a news conference with her Israeli counterpart in Tel Aviv on Sunday, French Foreign Minister Catherine Colonna also pushed for a ceasefire.
Western allies of Israel have increasingly expressed concern with civilian casualties and the mass displacement of 1.9 million Palestinians - nearly 85% of Gaza’s population - though the US has continued to provide military and diplomatic support to its close ally.
posted by adamvasco at 7:59 AM on December 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
At a news conference with her Israeli counterpart in Tel Aviv on Sunday, French Foreign Minister Catherine Colonna also pushed for a ceasefire.
Western allies of Israel have increasingly expressed concern with civilian casualties and the mass displacement of 1.9 million Palestinians - nearly 85% of Gaza’s population - though the US has continued to provide military and diplomatic support to its close ally.
posted by adamvasco at 7:59 AM on December 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The only people seen wearing civilian clothing have been Hamas operatives, often unarmed.
And what are the civilians you've seen wearing? Hamas outfits? The answer is obvious, There are no civilians, everyone is a target for lethal fire, and that is proving out.
posted by achrise at 8:39 AM on December 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
And what are the civilians you've seen wearing? Hamas outfits? The answer is obvious, There are no civilians, everyone is a target for lethal fire, and that is proving out.
posted by achrise at 8:39 AM on December 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
To me, it looks like Israel is making most of the same mistakes that the US did in the "war on terror," but compressed into weeks rather than years. Drone and bomb strikes that kill families, treating dense urban areas as free fire zones, near-total lack of accountability, humiliating and angering local citizens, and of course the initial problem of getting drawn into a conflict that isn't really winnable anyway.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:00 AM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 10:00 AM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Dip Flash I must disagree. While I don't ascribe much actual intelligence to the Israeli leadership, I think that unlike Junior they do have a plan and a definite path to victory. It's just a plan and a path to victory they can't openly admit is official policy so they dance around it while less official spokespeople are free to bluntly describe it.
Ultimately they want to claim Gaza, they're smart enough to know they can't realistically expect to get that done in a few months of intense fighting so they're aiming to replicate the West Bank in Gaza.
They want as many Gazans dead or evicted during this initial phase as they can so they can split up Gaza into more easily digestible fragments and start pressuring them and "settling" in Gaza to drive out the remaining Palestinians eventually while keeping them from having any sort of organized means of resistance.
We've seen Netanyahu officially deny that Israel intends to seize Gaza, but we've also seen an endless parade of lower ranking Israeli officials using language of extermination, language of conquest, and openly saying they want to get rid of the Palestinian population of Gaza and take over.
And the Biden approach of occasional scolding and finger wagging while expediting the shipment of as much weaponry to Israel as they possibly can shows that America is fine with Israel's approach but wants implausible deniability so they can weep crocodile tears later.
posted by sotonohito at 10:44 AM on December 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ultimately they want to claim Gaza, they're smart enough to know they can't realistically expect to get that done in a few months of intense fighting so they're aiming to replicate the West Bank in Gaza.
They want as many Gazans dead or evicted during this initial phase as they can so they can split up Gaza into more easily digestible fragments and start pressuring them and "settling" in Gaza to drive out the remaining Palestinians eventually while keeping them from having any sort of organized means of resistance.
We've seen Netanyahu officially deny that Israel intends to seize Gaza, but we've also seen an endless parade of lower ranking Israeli officials using language of extermination, language of conquest, and openly saying they want to get rid of the Palestinian population of Gaza and take over.
And the Biden approach of occasional scolding and finger wagging while expediting the shipment of as much weaponry to Israel as they possibly can shows that America is fine with Israel's approach but wants implausible deniability so they can weep crocodile tears later.
posted by sotonohito at 10:44 AM on December 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Analogies to the U.S. War on Terror aren't strong. The War on Terror failed to punish the Gulf monarchies' for (at best) toleration of bin Laden's rise, had no end game for Afghanistan, and no good upfront rationale (to say the least of endgame) for Iraq.
Israel has a clear plan for Gaza: evict/kill Hamas, establish and maintain security control, and instate a non-Hamas Palestinian civilian government - with no Jewish settlements nor non-Hamas Palestinian deportations. The only thing that isn't known is who the non-Hamas Palestinian governance will be - Netanyahu is saying it won't be the Palestinian Authority, but it's a bit hard to see what else it could be.
posted by MattD at 10:49 AM on December 17, 2023
Israel has a clear plan for Gaza: evict/kill Hamas, establish and maintain security control, and instate a non-Hamas Palestinian civilian government - with no Jewish settlements nor non-Hamas Palestinian deportations. The only thing that isn't known is who the non-Hamas Palestinian governance will be - Netanyahu is saying it won't be the Palestinian Authority, but it's a bit hard to see what else it could be.
posted by MattD at 10:49 AM on December 17, 2023
Israel has a clear plan for Gaza: evict/kill Hamas, establish and maintain security control, and instate a non-Hamas Palestinian civilian government - with no Jewish settlements nor non-Hamas Palestinian deportations.1. This is quite obviously not Israel's actual plan;
2. Even if it were Israel's actual plan, it fucking boggles my mind that people act as if that would be a normal and reasonable "plan" rather than two dozen violations of international law in a (very large) trenchcoat. (And i mean two dozen in addition to the violations of international law that are going on every day and have been for the last 75 years.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:07 PM on December 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
Israel should make Gaza look like Auschwitz - council head (The Jerusalem Post):
posted by kmt at 2:08 PM on December 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
Israel should be sending Palestinian Gazans fleeing the fighting to refugee camps in Lebanon, with the entire Gaza Strip being emptied and leveled and turned into a museum like the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland, Metula Council head David Azoulai told 103FM."When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
posted by kmt at 2:08 PM on December 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
Adrienneleigh - hard to see how you can maintain the Israeli government has any other plan. It is what they said they would do on October 7th and it's been the line of best fit of everything they've done in the 10 weeks since.
If Israel was willing to permit Hamas to remain, or to withdraw security measures altogether when Hamas is beaten, the war would have looked very different.
If Israel intended to deport non-Hamas Gazans, or resume settlements, ditto ... and that's to say nothing of Israel's inability to achieve either of those things if they wanted, given they are red lines which Biden has the domestic support to enforce. Cross those red lines and Israel could find itself alone in conflict with Iran and (not inconceivably) Turkey, which is something that Israel doesn't want, even if its nuclear forces give it the ability to hold its own in those fights.
posted by MattD at 2:52 PM on December 17, 2023
If Israel was willing to permit Hamas to remain, or to withdraw security measures altogether when Hamas is beaten, the war would have looked very different.
If Israel intended to deport non-Hamas Gazans, or resume settlements, ditto ... and that's to say nothing of Israel's inability to achieve either of those things if they wanted, given they are red lines which Biden has the domestic support to enforce. Cross those red lines and Israel could find itself alone in conflict with Iran and (not inconceivably) Turkey, which is something that Israel doesn't want, even if its nuclear forces give it the ability to hold its own in those fights.
posted by MattD at 2:52 PM on December 17, 2023
it's been the line of best fit of everything they've done in the 10 weeks since
A constant stream of Israeli officials have been clear they are committed to Nakba II. Sure, Bibi maintains a thin veneer of plausible deniability about it, but he is an inveterate liar that most of his population thinks belongs in jail, not in office.
posted by bcd at 3:00 PM on December 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
A constant stream of Israeli officials have been clear they are committed to Nakba II. Sure, Bibi maintains a thin veneer of plausible deniability about it, but he is an inveterate liar that most of his population thinks belongs in jail, not in office.
posted by bcd at 3:00 PM on December 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
MattD: no, the "line of best fit" for everything Israel has done is that they are trying to entirely destroy Palestinian life and culture, make Gaza uninhabitable for decades, and commit as much ethnic cleansing and forcible resettlement as possible within the extremely broad parameters of what the rest of the world is allowing them to get away with.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:08 PM on December 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:08 PM on December 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
As cendawanita noted, the report I linked to above on white flag killings was from 2009. Here's an even earlier example, from 2002:
"Fifty-seven-year-old Kamal Zghair, a wheelchair-bound man who was shot and then run over by IDF tanks on April 10 as he was moving in his wheelchair equipped with a white flag down a major road in Jenin."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 3:40 PM on December 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
As cendawanita noted, the report I linked to above on white flag killings was from 2009. Here's an even earlier example, from 2002:
"Fifty-seven-year-old Kamal Zghair, a wheelchair-bound man who was shot and then run over by IDF tanks on April 10 as he was moving in his wheelchair equipped with a white flag down a major road in Jenin."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 3:40 PM on December 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Apologies if this has been discussed already, but there's a Google app called No Thanks that makes it easier to boycott companies linked to Israel.
... the app was developed by Ahmed Bashbash, who lives in Hungary and describes himself as a Palestinian from Gaza.
Bashbash told DW News that he lost his brother "in this massacre" - and that his sister died in 2020 because she was deprived of medical support.
"I made it [the app] on behalf of my brother and my sister who I lost because of this brutal occupation, and my goal is to try to prevent what happened to me to happen to another Palestinian," he told the German broadcaster.
Hoping a version for iPhone will be available soon.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 3:52 PM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
... the app was developed by Ahmed Bashbash, who lives in Hungary and describes himself as a Palestinian from Gaza.
Bashbash told DW News that he lost his brother "in this massacre" - and that his sister died in 2020 because she was deprived of medical support.
"I made it [the app] on behalf of my brother and my sister who I lost because of this brutal occupation, and my goal is to try to prevent what happened to me to happen to another Palestinian," he told the German broadcaster.
Hoping a version for iPhone will be available soon.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 3:52 PM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Viral video of near-naked Palestinian captives in Gaza sparked outrage. For Hani, it was deeply personal
Hani saw the video on the Telegram messaging app — and spotted his brother Mahmoud.
The 32-year-old — who Hani says has epilepsy, can barely run due to his health and is not connected to Hamas — was among the dozens of near-naked captives.
...
Mahmoud told him he was playing with his daughters when an Israeli tank arrived in the neighbourhood and ordered the men out of their houses.
"He said, as they were taking the men, there were officers who just burned cars, just for fun," Hani says.
One of the cars belonged to his cousin.
"There's not a military reason. They're just inflicting damage on people and property.
...
They were blindfolded, bound and insulted in Hebrew and Arabic with crude remarks about their mothers, loaded into a truck and taken to an unknown location, Hani says.
The men were held for about 16 hours before some were told to find their way home in their underwear.
"They said, 'no shoes, no clothes, and go home now', with their hands tied [behind] their back."
...
Some released detainees told Associated Press (AP) that soldiers came to their homes with dogs or blew open their doors with grenades, shouted sexual insults at the women, and beat the men with their rifle butts. After the men were taken, they were held for hours or days outdoors without clothes or food.
"My only crime is not having enough money to flee to the south," one released detainee said.
"Do you think Hamas are the ones waiting in their homes for the Israelis to come find them now? We stayed because we have nothing to do with Hamas."
CNN reported it had spoken to 10 men and boys who had been detained and released, who all gave similar accounts of abuse.
"They would tie your hands behind your back and drag you like a dog," a 14-year-old boy, who was detained with his father in Gaza City, told the network through an interpreter.
"They would come kick you with their boots. I didn't do anything to him, they just decided to come kick me."
Bolded emphasis mine.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:23 PM on December 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Hani saw the video on the Telegram messaging app — and spotted his brother Mahmoud.
The 32-year-old — who Hani says has epilepsy, can barely run due to his health and is not connected to Hamas — was among the dozens of near-naked captives.
...
Mahmoud told him he was playing with his daughters when an Israeli tank arrived in the neighbourhood and ordered the men out of their houses.
"He said, as they were taking the men, there were officers who just burned cars, just for fun," Hani says.
One of the cars belonged to his cousin.
"There's not a military reason. They're just inflicting damage on people and property.
...
They were blindfolded, bound and insulted in Hebrew and Arabic with crude remarks about their mothers, loaded into a truck and taken to an unknown location, Hani says.
The men were held for about 16 hours before some were told to find their way home in their underwear.
"They said, 'no shoes, no clothes, and go home now', with their hands tied [behind] their back."
...
Some released detainees told Associated Press (AP) that soldiers came to their homes with dogs or blew open their doors with grenades, shouted sexual insults at the women, and beat the men with their rifle butts. After the men were taken, they were held for hours or days outdoors without clothes or food.
"My only crime is not having enough money to flee to the south," one released detainee said.
"Do you think Hamas are the ones waiting in their homes for the Israelis to come find them now? We stayed because we have nothing to do with Hamas."
CNN reported it had spoken to 10 men and boys who had been detained and released, who all gave similar accounts of abuse.
"They would tie your hands behind your back and drag you like a dog," a 14-year-old boy, who was detained with his father in Gaza City, told the network through an interpreter.
"They would come kick you with their boots. I didn't do anything to him, they just decided to come kick me."
Bolded emphasis mine.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:23 PM on December 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Pope condemns attacks on civilians in Gaza: ‘It is war; it is terrorism’
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:25 PM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:25 PM on December 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
"🚨 Happening NOW in the West Bank:yumna_patel on Twitter
The Israeli army is going house to house in Aida refugee camp beating people up & taking residents hostage. They are breaking down doors, ransacking homes, & physically assaulting people. They are not allowing ambulances in to treat the wounded"
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:35 PM on December 17, 2023
In Palestine
Saul Staniforth (13h ago; nitter) - (commenting on BBC clip posted with tweet) - "We saw children with open wounds on their faces, we saw a baby with jaundice, we saw many adults with.. open wounds, fractures. Unfortunately the hospital.. is unable to provide care to a lot of those people"
Sean Casey from @WHO describes what he saw at Al Shifa hospital
Younis Tirawi (9h ago) - 🕯️It is with deep sorrow that we announce the tragic murder of our fellow journalist Haneen Qshitan tonight. She was murdered with her entire family. Her mother, father and her siblings Linda, Shadi & Atef
Haneen Qshitan, worked as a broadcaster at the Nation’s Voice 105 FM.
Ramy Abdu (22h ago) - Israeli forces have left the main market of Beit Lahia town resembling ruins after their destructive onslaught. Markets, a vital hub of economic and social life, were systematically obliterated across the Gaza Strip.
Trita Parsi (Dec 17) - (with video) Doctors in Gaza are conducting amputations without WITHOUT anesthesia in front of TV crews from world media.
Dr. Mohamed Ghoneim from the Kuwaiti Hospital pleads to the cameras: Stop this genocide now!
Ibrahim Seifan (13h ago) - Yesterday it was my first time, 5th year medical student, to do my first full operation for a patient with bilateral legs fracture (tibia) blindly without in-operation-xRay, due the lack of equipment, under supervision of one of the greatest doctors.
Al-Aqaa Hospital
Mohammad Alsaafin (16h ago) - (with video) Gunfire interrupts a press conference held by health officials and doctors in the destroyed grounds of Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza.
Reporters there say the gunfire came from an Israeli quadcopter drone.
Dr Abusalama (9h ago) - Israel just bombed a whole residential square and flattened it to the ground! My dad and brother and nieces, uncles and aunties and cousins are there! Desperate to hear their voices but telecommunications are down! Genocide continues amid a horrific blackout! This world is cruel.
Statement from the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem (Dec 16) about a church being surrounded (mentioned upthread, as it related to a British MP's family sheltering there) and two women being shot dead by sniper. Comments Mehdi Hassan - All I know is that if church leaders in the Middle East had announced that Hamas were surrounding a church and sniping and killing Christian women inside, & also forcibly displacing 54 disabled people taking shelter inside, Christian GOP politicians here would be going crazy.
Sulaiman Ahmed (13h ago) (with video) CHRISTIAN PRIEST FROM JERUSALEM CALLS FOR ALL CHRISTIANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD TO SUPPORT PALESTINE
Mohammed El-Kurd (18h ago) - (translating Al-Jazeera Arabic) "The occupation unleashed their dogs on us in the courtyard of Kamal Adwan hospital. The dogs mauled a wounded man until he died."
(I have also seen videos of cats)
Ramy Abdu (Dec 17) -New mass grave discovered near Fahmi al-Jarjawi School, containing the remains of dozens of victims in Gaza. So far, 122 mass graves have been documented by @EuroMedHR, revealing the tragic toll of civilian lives claimed by Israeli genocide.
Dr Mustafa Elmasri (11h ago) - Al-Awda Hospital in Gaza and Mubarak Children & Maternity Hospital in Khan Younis are now under Zs attack right now, following their crime at Kamal Adwan Maternity hospital. Hospitals especially serving women and children, seem to ignite Zs lust for murder
Rohan Talbot (same timestamp) - Israel just hit the maternity department at Al Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis with an artillery shell, killing one woman and injuring others. - the woman killed, was only a teenager, had managed to survive previous strikes, and lost her family, and her legs, from those.
In Israel
Mairav Zonszein (Dec 17) - This is right. Israel claims soldiers broke of rules of engagement. But some who fought in Gaza in 2014 point out that rules of engagement were that anyone in a battle zone is a target. This is also plain from looking at what is happening in Gaza - recall Rachel Corrie.
(tangent: idk if you guys know this, but it's also a common Israeli meme to do pancake memes, where the pancake is Corrie)
(Economist) A new Suez crisis threatens the world economy - Bab al-Mandab is a narrow strait between Africa and the Arabian peninsula through which an estimated 12% of global trade by volume normally flows, and perhaps 30% of global container traffic. It has become a no-go zone as the Houthis, based in Yemen, attack shipping, ostensibly in support of the Palestinians in Gaza. The strikes have been going on for weeks but have now escalated sharply. On December 15th the Houthis threatened to attack one ship, struck another one with a drone and launched two ballistic missiles at the mv Palatium III, one of which hit the vessel. The attack on the Palatium III was the first ever use of an anti-ship ballistic missile. All the ships were Liberian-flagged. On December 16th an American naval vessel, uss Carney (pictured), shot down 14 drones over the Red Sea while a British ship, hms Diamond, destroyed another.
Faced with a soaring risk of ships being crippled and their crews killed, the global shipping industry is switching into emergency mode. On December 15th Maersk and Hapag-Lloyd paused their services. On December 16th cma cgm followed, as did msc, the owner of the Palatium III, which said that its ships would not use the Suez Canal in either direction “until the Red Sea passage is safe”, and that some vessels would be rerouted via the Cape of Good Hope. Together these four companies account for 53% of the global container trade. Smaller container operators, as well as dry-bulk carriers and oil tanker firms, may now follow their lead.
The crisis has two big implications: one for the world economy and the other regarding the risks of military escalation in the Middle East as Western countries try to re-establish order. Start with the economy. Revenue from the Suez Canal is a major source of income for Egypt, which is already in the midst of a financial crisis. (Israel will be less affected, with only about 5% of its trade passing through Eilat, its Red Sea port.)
From that 5%: (Haaretz) Houthis Open New and Dangerous Front in Israel's Economic War - (as summarised by Rania Khalek)The resistance axis is doing great damage to Israel’s economy, with Yemen being the big game changer. According to Israeli paper Haaretz:
1
THE GAZA FRONT (HAMAS) “has forced Israel to call up some 360,000 reservists and evacuate tens of thousands of people from their homes in the south while much economic activity there has ground to a halt.”
2
THE LEBANON FRONT (HEZBOLLAH) “is doing much the same economic damage in the north.
The cost to the economy from these two fronts has been enormous. The treasury expects the Israeli economy to shrink by a 15 percent annual rate in the fourth quarter. Including workers being put on unpaid leave, unemployment soared to 9.6 percent in October – from 3.6 percent the previous month. Retail sales remain depressed, while incoming tourism has sunk to pandemic levels.”
3
THE YEMEN FRONT “presents an entirely new threat to the economy because it is targeting Israel's international trade.
The Houthi attacks are already pinching Israel's maritime trade. Cargo traffic at Eilat port is down by 80 percent and the cost of marine insurance for Israeli-owned (and now presumably Israel-bound) vessels is soaring. Companies like Israel's Zim are rerouting their ships away from the Red Sea, having them go around Africa instead – a change that adds two weeks to the voyage. All of this will add to the costs of imports, which will be passed on to the Israeli consumer.”
@ireallyhateyou (18h ago) translating their own Hebrew post that shared a video from Israeli tv: Another confirmation of Hannibal Directive being used by Israel on October 7. Doron Katz-Asher, an Israeli hostage who was freed during the recent exchange, talks about how the IDF shot at the tractor taking them to Gaza, killing her mother and injuring her and her daughter.
(France24) Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths
Jerusalem (AFP) – A more precise picture of Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel has emerged from social security data, confirming the unprecedented scale of the violence but also challenging some initial testimonies.
----
The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.
[...]On October 14, Israeli authorities announced a preliminary toll of more than 1,400 people killed by "Hamas terrorists".
On November 10, the foreign ministry published an "updated estimate", saying the number "murdered in cold blood" was around 1,200 people, without further details.
[...]The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in Reim where 364 people were killed.
But it also invalidates some statements by Israeli authorities in the days following the attack.
In particular, a claim made on October 10 on the government's official X (formerly Twitter) account spoke of "40 babies murdered" at Kfar Aza kibbutz, based on a report by i24NEWS channel.
(ToI) PM: I’m proud I blocked a Palestinian state. Looking at Gaza, everyone sees what would have happened - At the Tel Aviv press conference, Netanyahu is asked by a reporter why he did not withdraw from the Oslo Accords, given that he keeps criticizing them.
“I inherited the Oslo Accords,” he says. “The decision to bring the PLO from Tunis, and plant it in the heart of Judea and Samaria [West Bank], and in Gaza, was a decision made and implemented before I became prime minister. I thought it was a terrible mistake and I still do.”
Turning on the reporter, he says: “You and your journalist friends have been blaming me for almost 30 years for putting the brakes on the Oslo Accords, and preventing the Palestinian state. That’s true,” he says.
“I’m proud that I prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state because today everybody understands what that Palestine state could have been, now that we’ve seen the little Palestinian state in Gaza. Everyone understands what would have happened if we had capitulated to international pressures and enabled a state like that in Judea and Samaria, surrounding Jerusalem and on the outskirts of Tel Aviv.”
background colour:
Lowkey summarizing an Omegle-type chat video - I killed two Palestinians..."
A woman claiming to be in the Israeli Army relishes in the killing of Palestinians and wants more to die in Gaza.
Also (13h ago): (translation of video) "Walla this is not how I imagined Jenin... Show them what I have in front of me"
Israeli soldiers in Jenin smoking a hookah (probably looted), while mocking arrested Palestinian detainees, and joking around about vacationing (and having sex) in the Gaza beach in the future.
(Jerusalem Post) Israel should make Gaza look like Auschwitz - council head
David Azoulai, head of the Metula Council, proposed sending all Gazans to refugee camps in Lebanon and flattening the whole Strip so it becomes an empty museum like Auschwitz.
Outside
(DW liveblog) Israel-Hamas war: US defense chief to visit amid truce calls - Lloyd Austin visits, and as of 2 hours ago: The United Nations Security Council on Monday is expected to vote on a new resolution calling for an "urgent and sustainable cessation of hostilities" in Gaza.
A previous Security Council vote calling for an end to fighting was vetoed by the US earlier this month.
The expected vote comes as Israel faces mounting international pressure over its continued military operation in Gaza. The Hamas-run health ministry in the Palestinian territory says more than 18,800 people have been killed since the war began.
(Guardian) Black church leaders ‘on the fence’ on Biden endorsement amid Israel-Gaza war - McBride emphasized that the decisions Biden and his administration are making now will affect voters’ decision next year. He thinks the Democratic party at large “needs to step away from engaging in foreign military excursions and activities”.
According to an October survey: “43 percent of Black Americans supported some form of ceasefire in Gaza, while 24 percent believed the United States should not be involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”
“Dr Martin Luther King Jr, who is arguably the most known public voice of the Black church’s legacy, said that the three triplets of evil that the United States must defeat are racism, militarism and economic exploitation,” he continued. “All three of these triplets of evil are at work right now, and so there’s a moral dissonance in the role of the United States government in 2023 to be funding wars where poor people, people of color, melanated people, dark-skinned people are being killed … I think this will have some kind of electoral impact.”
He said that the events and aftermath of 7 October have raised people’s consciousness in a way that it hadn’t been raised before.
Tiana the writer (Dec 16) - I'm hyper aware that there are less Palestinians online sharing their experiences and real time news and it's not because they're tired and overwhelmed (which they have the right to be) but because they are dead. They're dead. They are dead.
posted by cendawanita at 12:27 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
Saul Staniforth (13h ago; nitter) - (commenting on BBC clip posted with tweet) - "We saw children with open wounds on their faces, we saw a baby with jaundice, we saw many adults with.. open wounds, fractures. Unfortunately the hospital.. is unable to provide care to a lot of those people"
Sean Casey from @WHO describes what he saw at Al Shifa hospital
Younis Tirawi (9h ago) - 🕯️It is with deep sorrow that we announce the tragic murder of our fellow journalist Haneen Qshitan tonight. She was murdered with her entire family. Her mother, father and her siblings Linda, Shadi & Atef
Haneen Qshitan, worked as a broadcaster at the Nation’s Voice 105 FM.
Ramy Abdu (22h ago) - Israeli forces have left the main market of Beit Lahia town resembling ruins after their destructive onslaught. Markets, a vital hub of economic and social life, were systematically obliterated across the Gaza Strip.
Trita Parsi (Dec 17) - (with video) Doctors in Gaza are conducting amputations without WITHOUT anesthesia in front of TV crews from world media.
Dr. Mohamed Ghoneim from the Kuwaiti Hospital pleads to the cameras: Stop this genocide now!
Ibrahim Seifan (13h ago) - Yesterday it was my first time, 5th year medical student, to do my first full operation for a patient with bilateral legs fracture (tibia) blindly without in-operation-xRay, due the lack of equipment, under supervision of one of the greatest doctors.
Al-Aqaa Hospital
Mohammad Alsaafin (16h ago) - (with video) Gunfire interrupts a press conference held by health officials and doctors in the destroyed grounds of Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza.
Reporters there say the gunfire came from an Israeli quadcopter drone.
Dr Abusalama (9h ago) - Israel just bombed a whole residential square and flattened it to the ground! My dad and brother and nieces, uncles and aunties and cousins are there! Desperate to hear their voices but telecommunications are down! Genocide continues amid a horrific blackout! This world is cruel.
Statement from the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem (Dec 16) about a church being surrounded (mentioned upthread, as it related to a British MP's family sheltering there) and two women being shot dead by sniper. Comments Mehdi Hassan - All I know is that if church leaders in the Middle East had announced that Hamas were surrounding a church and sniping and killing Christian women inside, & also forcibly displacing 54 disabled people taking shelter inside, Christian GOP politicians here would be going crazy.
Sulaiman Ahmed (13h ago) (with video) CHRISTIAN PRIEST FROM JERUSALEM CALLS FOR ALL CHRISTIANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD TO SUPPORT PALESTINE
Mohammed El-Kurd (18h ago) - (translating Al-Jazeera Arabic) "The occupation unleashed their dogs on us in the courtyard of Kamal Adwan hospital. The dogs mauled a wounded man until he died."
(I have also seen videos of cats)
Ramy Abdu (Dec 17) -New mass grave discovered near Fahmi al-Jarjawi School, containing the remains of dozens of victims in Gaza. So far, 122 mass graves have been documented by @EuroMedHR, revealing the tragic toll of civilian lives claimed by Israeli genocide.
Dr Mustafa Elmasri (11h ago) - Al-Awda Hospital in Gaza and Mubarak Children & Maternity Hospital in Khan Younis are now under Zs attack right now, following their crime at Kamal Adwan Maternity hospital. Hospitals especially serving women and children, seem to ignite Zs lust for murder
Rohan Talbot (same timestamp) - Israel just hit the maternity department at Al Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis with an artillery shell, killing one woman and injuring others. - the woman killed, was only a teenager, had managed to survive previous strikes, and lost her family, and her legs, from those.
In Israel
Mairav Zonszein (Dec 17) - This is right. Israel claims soldiers broke of rules of engagement. But some who fought in Gaza in 2014 point out that rules of engagement were that anyone in a battle zone is a target. This is also plain from looking at what is happening in Gaza - recall Rachel Corrie.
(tangent: idk if you guys know this, but it's also a common Israeli meme to do pancake memes, where the pancake is Corrie)
(Economist) A new Suez crisis threatens the world economy - Bab al-Mandab is a narrow strait between Africa and the Arabian peninsula through which an estimated 12% of global trade by volume normally flows, and perhaps 30% of global container traffic. It has become a no-go zone as the Houthis, based in Yemen, attack shipping, ostensibly in support of the Palestinians in Gaza. The strikes have been going on for weeks but have now escalated sharply. On December 15th the Houthis threatened to attack one ship, struck another one with a drone and launched two ballistic missiles at the mv Palatium III, one of which hit the vessel. The attack on the Palatium III was the first ever use of an anti-ship ballistic missile. All the ships were Liberian-flagged. On December 16th an American naval vessel, uss Carney (pictured), shot down 14 drones over the Red Sea while a British ship, hms Diamond, destroyed another.
Faced with a soaring risk of ships being crippled and their crews killed, the global shipping industry is switching into emergency mode. On December 15th Maersk and Hapag-Lloyd paused their services. On December 16th cma cgm followed, as did msc, the owner of the Palatium III, which said that its ships would not use the Suez Canal in either direction “until the Red Sea passage is safe”, and that some vessels would be rerouted via the Cape of Good Hope. Together these four companies account for 53% of the global container trade. Smaller container operators, as well as dry-bulk carriers and oil tanker firms, may now follow their lead.
The crisis has two big implications: one for the world economy and the other regarding the risks of military escalation in the Middle East as Western countries try to re-establish order. Start with the economy. Revenue from the Suez Canal is a major source of income for Egypt, which is already in the midst of a financial crisis. (Israel will be less affected, with only about 5% of its trade passing through Eilat, its Red Sea port.)
From that 5%: (Haaretz) Houthis Open New and Dangerous Front in Israel's Economic War - (as summarised by Rania Khalek)The resistance axis is doing great damage to Israel’s economy, with Yemen being the big game changer. According to Israeli paper Haaretz:
1
THE GAZA FRONT (HAMAS) “has forced Israel to call up some 360,000 reservists and evacuate tens of thousands of people from their homes in the south while much economic activity there has ground to a halt.”
2
THE LEBANON FRONT (HEZBOLLAH) “is doing much the same economic damage in the north.
The cost to the economy from these two fronts has been enormous. The treasury expects the Israeli economy to shrink by a 15 percent annual rate in the fourth quarter. Including workers being put on unpaid leave, unemployment soared to 9.6 percent in October – from 3.6 percent the previous month. Retail sales remain depressed, while incoming tourism has sunk to pandemic levels.”
3
THE YEMEN FRONT “presents an entirely new threat to the economy because it is targeting Israel's international trade.
The Houthi attacks are already pinching Israel's maritime trade. Cargo traffic at Eilat port is down by 80 percent and the cost of marine insurance for Israeli-owned (and now presumably Israel-bound) vessels is soaring. Companies like Israel's Zim are rerouting their ships away from the Red Sea, having them go around Africa instead – a change that adds two weeks to the voyage. All of this will add to the costs of imports, which will be passed on to the Israeli consumer.”
@ireallyhateyou (18h ago) translating their own Hebrew post that shared a video from Israeli tv: Another confirmation of Hannibal Directive being used by Israel on October 7. Doron Katz-Asher, an Israeli hostage who was freed during the recent exchange, talks about how the IDF shot at the tractor taking them to Gaza, killing her mother and injuring her and her daughter.
(France24) Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths
Jerusalem (AFP) – A more precise picture of Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel has emerged from social security data, confirming the unprecedented scale of the violence but also challenging some initial testimonies.
----
The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.
[...]On October 14, Israeli authorities announced a preliminary toll of more than 1,400 people killed by "Hamas terrorists".
On November 10, the foreign ministry published an "updated estimate", saying the number "murdered in cold blood" was around 1,200 people, without further details.
[...]The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in Reim where 364 people were killed.
But it also invalidates some statements by Israeli authorities in the days following the attack.
In particular, a claim made on October 10 on the government's official X (formerly Twitter) account spoke of "40 babies murdered" at Kfar Aza kibbutz, based on a report by i24NEWS channel.
(ToI) PM: I’m proud I blocked a Palestinian state. Looking at Gaza, everyone sees what would have happened - At the Tel Aviv press conference, Netanyahu is asked by a reporter why he did not withdraw from the Oslo Accords, given that he keeps criticizing them.
“I inherited the Oslo Accords,” he says. “The decision to bring the PLO from Tunis, and plant it in the heart of Judea and Samaria [West Bank], and in Gaza, was a decision made and implemented before I became prime minister. I thought it was a terrible mistake and I still do.”
Turning on the reporter, he says: “You and your journalist friends have been blaming me for almost 30 years for putting the brakes on the Oslo Accords, and preventing the Palestinian state. That’s true,” he says.
“I’m proud that I prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state because today everybody understands what that Palestine state could have been, now that we’ve seen the little Palestinian state in Gaza. Everyone understands what would have happened if we had capitulated to international pressures and enabled a state like that in Judea and Samaria, surrounding Jerusalem and on the outskirts of Tel Aviv.”
background colour:
Lowkey summarizing an Omegle-type chat video - I killed two Palestinians..."
A woman claiming to be in the Israeli Army relishes in the killing of Palestinians and wants more to die in Gaza.
Also (13h ago): (translation of video) "Walla this is not how I imagined Jenin... Show them what I have in front of me"
Israeli soldiers in Jenin smoking a hookah (probably looted), while mocking arrested Palestinian detainees, and joking around about vacationing (and having sex) in the Gaza beach in the future.
(Jerusalem Post) Israel should make Gaza look like Auschwitz - council head
David Azoulai, head of the Metula Council, proposed sending all Gazans to refugee camps in Lebanon and flattening the whole Strip so it becomes an empty museum like Auschwitz.
Outside
(DW liveblog) Israel-Hamas war: US defense chief to visit amid truce calls - Lloyd Austin visits, and as of 2 hours ago: The United Nations Security Council on Monday is expected to vote on a new resolution calling for an "urgent and sustainable cessation of hostilities" in Gaza.
A previous Security Council vote calling for an end to fighting was vetoed by the US earlier this month.
The expected vote comes as Israel faces mounting international pressure over its continued military operation in Gaza. The Hamas-run health ministry in the Palestinian territory says more than 18,800 people have been killed since the war began.
(Guardian) Black church leaders ‘on the fence’ on Biden endorsement amid Israel-Gaza war - McBride emphasized that the decisions Biden and his administration are making now will affect voters’ decision next year. He thinks the Democratic party at large “needs to step away from engaging in foreign military excursions and activities”.
According to an October survey: “43 percent of Black Americans supported some form of ceasefire in Gaza, while 24 percent believed the United States should not be involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”
“Dr Martin Luther King Jr, who is arguably the most known public voice of the Black church’s legacy, said that the three triplets of evil that the United States must defeat are racism, militarism and economic exploitation,” he continued. “All three of these triplets of evil are at work right now, and so there’s a moral dissonance in the role of the United States government in 2023 to be funding wars where poor people, people of color, melanated people, dark-skinned people are being killed … I think this will have some kind of electoral impact.”
He said that the events and aftermath of 7 October have raised people’s consciousness in a way that it hadn’t been raised before.
Tiana the writer (Dec 16) - I'm hyper aware that there are less Palestinians online sharing their experiences and real time news and it's not because they're tired and overwhelmed (which they have the right to be) but because they are dead. They're dead. They are dead.
posted by cendawanita at 12:27 AM on December 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
Previously this conversational tangent was shelved, due to concerns if we're just bringing up historical examples from Israel's occupation of Palestine, then we might fall into the 'blood libel' trope.
This isn't a tangent. Please mark date: Israel demolishes Gaza cemeteries, confiscates dead bodies of Palestinians - According to Euro-Med Monitor field documentation, Israel’s army has targeted the majority of cemeteries in the Gaza Strip, including Al-Falujah cemetery in the northern Gaza Strip, Ali bin Marwan, Sheikh Radwan, Al-Shuhada, and Sheikh Shaaban cemeteries, in addition to St. Porphyrius Church cemetery in Gaza City and Al-Shuhada cemetery in the northern town of Beit Lahia, destroying dozens of graves in utter disregard for the sanctity of the dead.
Large holes have been created inside these cemeteries as a result of frequent Israeli attacks, engulfing dozens of graves. The remains of some dead bodies have been scattered or disappeared, while dozens of graves remain seriously damaged.
Euro-Med Monitor received reports confirming that the Israeli army dug up several graves in Al-Faluga cemetery and stole dead bodies—believed to belong to Palestinian activists—amid fears that their organs might be stolen.
[...] According to Euro-Med Monitor, more than 120 mass graves were recently established across the Gaza Strip to bury those killed in Israel’s ongoing genocide of Gazans, given the difficulty of accessing the main and regular cemeteries and the non-stop Israeli attacks.
Families in the Gaza Strip have resorted to creating random mass graves in residential neighbourhoods, courtyards, roads, wedding halls, and stadiums. More than 120 of these mass graves have been established so far.
Also from them: Urgent int’l investigation needed to probe Israeli war crimes after Palestinian civilians buried alive at Gaza’s Kamal Adwan Hospital
Also: (Al-Jazeera) Why does Israel keep the bodies of Palestinians? - if you're doing the moral calculations, don't worry, the report notes this is a policy that continued from the time of the British Mandate. But ramped up from 2015.
In addition, I was catching up by tv broadcasts over the weekend as well as yt, these are some newsy, op-eds, and interviews that I think are worth sharing:
(Democracy Now) Israel Raids Freedom Theatre in Jenin Refugee Camp; Director Speaks Out After Being Jailed & Beaten
(Al-Jazeera) Israeli sniper ‘shot in cold blood’ mother and daughter in Gaza church - this also mentioned that it's estimated there're only about a thousand Christians left in the territory.
(Guardian) How Israeli settler violence forces Palestinians to flee their homes
(Al-Jazeera) Jenin raid aftermath: Families recount losses after Israeli raid
Masha Gessen interview on Democracy Now
(NHK) Message of support from Japan to Gaza - As the conflict between Israel and Hamas deepens, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is intensifying. This report highlights how survivors of the 2011 Great East Japan Earthquake are taking steps to express their support to the people of Gaza.
Sharing the following for their testimonies and anecdotes, not as channel recommendations:
- Wounds of War: The Gaza Experience Through the Eyes of Dr. Ghassan Abu Sitta (1hr+)
- They Stole a Country in Full Bloom - Pro-Palestinian Israeli activist Miko Peled explains to an audience in Melbourne, Australia how the Israelis stole Palestinian cities and farmland in 1948 and continued its ethnic cleansing until today's brutal operation in Gaza. (almost 2 hrs)
- (The Take podcast) What do Israelis think of the war on Gaza?
- (Hasanabi twitch) With Noah Kulwin, he interviewed two Israeli students who refused to join IDF - I thought this was an interesting collection of comments about life in Israel.
- Owen Jones interview with Ariel Bernstein who fought in Gaza in 2014.
- Middle East Eye interview with Josh Paul.
- This is what 24 hours of our lives in Gaza look like | Close Up - We asked 10 people in Gaza to record moments of their day. The result is inspiring and heartbreaking.
70 days have passed since the Israeli military launched an all-out assault on Gaza following an attack on Israel by Hamas on October 7. In those 70 days, more than 19,000 Palestinians have been killed, most of them children and women.
Al Jazeera’s digital documentary series, Close Up, reached out to Palestinians in Gaza in November and asked them to record whatever they could over the course of a day on any devices that still worked - because who better to tell the stories of life in Gaza than the people themselves who are living there through the horror of siege and war?
(If it helps, just imagine they're the Israeli hostages)
posted by cendawanita at 1:15 AM on December 18, 2023 [23 favorites]
This isn't a tangent. Please mark date: Israel demolishes Gaza cemeteries, confiscates dead bodies of Palestinians - According to Euro-Med Monitor field documentation, Israel’s army has targeted the majority of cemeteries in the Gaza Strip, including Al-Falujah cemetery in the northern Gaza Strip, Ali bin Marwan, Sheikh Radwan, Al-Shuhada, and Sheikh Shaaban cemeteries, in addition to St. Porphyrius Church cemetery in Gaza City and Al-Shuhada cemetery in the northern town of Beit Lahia, destroying dozens of graves in utter disregard for the sanctity of the dead.
Large holes have been created inside these cemeteries as a result of frequent Israeli attacks, engulfing dozens of graves. The remains of some dead bodies have been scattered or disappeared, while dozens of graves remain seriously damaged.
Euro-Med Monitor received reports confirming that the Israeli army dug up several graves in Al-Faluga cemetery and stole dead bodies—believed to belong to Palestinian activists—amid fears that their organs might be stolen.
[...] According to Euro-Med Monitor, more than 120 mass graves were recently established across the Gaza Strip to bury those killed in Israel’s ongoing genocide of Gazans, given the difficulty of accessing the main and regular cemeteries and the non-stop Israeli attacks.
Families in the Gaza Strip have resorted to creating random mass graves in residential neighbourhoods, courtyards, roads, wedding halls, and stadiums. More than 120 of these mass graves have been established so far.
Also from them: Urgent int’l investigation needed to probe Israeli war crimes after Palestinian civilians buried alive at Gaza’s Kamal Adwan Hospital
Also: (Al-Jazeera) Why does Israel keep the bodies of Palestinians? - if you're doing the moral calculations, don't worry, the report notes this is a policy that continued from the time of the British Mandate. But ramped up from 2015.
In addition, I was catching up by tv broadcasts over the weekend as well as yt, these are some newsy, op-eds, and interviews that I think are worth sharing:
(Democracy Now) Israel Raids Freedom Theatre in Jenin Refugee Camp; Director Speaks Out After Being Jailed & Beaten
(Al-Jazeera) Israeli sniper ‘shot in cold blood’ mother and daughter in Gaza church - this also mentioned that it's estimated there're only about a thousand Christians left in the territory.
(Guardian) How Israeli settler violence forces Palestinians to flee their homes
(Al-Jazeera) Jenin raid aftermath: Families recount losses after Israeli raid
Masha Gessen interview on Democracy Now
(NHK) Message of support from Japan to Gaza - As the conflict between Israel and Hamas deepens, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is intensifying. This report highlights how survivors of the 2011 Great East Japan Earthquake are taking steps to express their support to the people of Gaza.
Sharing the following for their testimonies and anecdotes, not as channel recommendations:
- Wounds of War: The Gaza Experience Through the Eyes of Dr. Ghassan Abu Sitta (1hr+)
- They Stole a Country in Full Bloom - Pro-Palestinian Israeli activist Miko Peled explains to an audience in Melbourne, Australia how the Israelis stole Palestinian cities and farmland in 1948 and continued its ethnic cleansing until today's brutal operation in Gaza. (almost 2 hrs)
- (The Take podcast) What do Israelis think of the war on Gaza?
- (Hasanabi twitch) With Noah Kulwin, he interviewed two Israeli students who refused to join IDF - I thought this was an interesting collection of comments about life in Israel.
- Owen Jones interview with Ariel Bernstein who fought in Gaza in 2014.
- Middle East Eye interview with Josh Paul.
- This is what 24 hours of our lives in Gaza look like | Close Up - We asked 10 people in Gaza to record moments of their day. The result is inspiring and heartbreaking.
70 days have passed since the Israeli military launched an all-out assault on Gaza following an attack on Israel by Hamas on October 7. In those 70 days, more than 19,000 Palestinians have been killed, most of them children and women.
Al Jazeera’s digital documentary series, Close Up, reached out to Palestinians in Gaza in November and asked them to record whatever they could over the course of a day on any devices that still worked - because who better to tell the stories of life in Gaza than the people themselves who are living there through the horror of siege and war?
(If it helps, just imagine they're the Israeli hostages)
posted by cendawanita at 1:15 AM on December 18, 2023 [23 favorites]
Effects of the Ansar Allah (Yemen) blockade: Hong Kong shipping company drops all Israeli business (Israel National News):
posted by kmt at 1:35 AM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Maritime shipping giant OOCL, which is based in Hong Kong, has announced that it will immediately cease handling Israeli shipping of any kind and to any port, whether importing or exporting. The announcement comes on the background of the continued threats of the Houthis in Yemen.Emphasis not in the original.
posted by kmt at 1:35 AM on December 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
The marvelous thing about commerce raiding of the sort that Ansarallah is doing is that it takes very little actual damage to be an extraordinarily expensive pain in the ass for absolutely everyone. It's a brilliant tactic, and the links from kmt and cendawanita, above, indicate very clearly why.
We've got all of the following happening since the first ship, the Galaxy Leader, was attacked less than a month ago:
- insurers have raised rates for cargos going through the strait, which adds expense and potentially keeps some shippers from doing business entirely
- some shippers, like Maersk, are rerouting all cargo out of the affected area (adding weeks and weeks of travel time, with expenses going up accordingly)
- some shippers, like OOCL, are publicly refusing to carry cargo that might risk their ships
And the Houthis have done all of that with zero loss of life on any side so far. No one has been killed or injured, at least not that i've heard about, and i've been following this closely. The crew of the Galaxy Leader are still hostage, but videos have been provided showing them healthy and fairly chill. I'm sure they'd like to go home--and their release is being negotiated--but they're otherwise unharmed. (Unlike, for instance, any given Palestinian prisoner of Israel, even before October 7.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:29 AM on December 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
We've got all of the following happening since the first ship, the Galaxy Leader, was attacked less than a month ago:
- insurers have raised rates for cargos going through the strait, which adds expense and potentially keeps some shippers from doing business entirely
- some shippers, like Maersk, are rerouting all cargo out of the affected area (adding weeks and weeks of travel time, with expenses going up accordingly)
- some shippers, like OOCL, are publicly refusing to carry cargo that might risk their ships
And the Houthis have done all of that with zero loss of life on any side so far. No one has been killed or injured, at least not that i've heard about, and i've been following this closely. The crew of the Galaxy Leader are still hostage, but videos have been provided showing them healthy and fairly chill. I'm sure they'd like to go home--and their release is being negotiated--but they're otherwise unharmed. (Unlike, for instance, any given Palestinian prisoner of Israel, even before October 7.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:29 AM on December 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Australia considers US request to send warship to Red Sea as Houthis target shipping lanes
We appear to be dragging our heels on this one. Which does surprise me, since when was the Australian Offensive Force reluctant to do whatever the seppos ask?
Good news for my holidays though, I might be able to resist spitting in my extended family's food. I have a lot of family in the navy.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:20 AM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
We appear to be dragging our heels on this one. Which does surprise me, since when was the Australian Offensive Force reluctant to do whatever the seppos ask?
Good news for my holidays though, I might be able to resist spitting in my extended family's food. I have a lot of family in the navy.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:20 AM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
To forestall any arguments, the link about the disturbing and removing of corpses also contains the citation to the international laws being violated by that action.
The fact that Israel also holds the return of corpses as a bargaining chip instead of promptly returning them as required under the law of war is also a violation. Really at this point it is almost easier to point to what laws of war they *aren’t* violating than which ones they are; the list is much shorter.
posted by corb at 5:50 AM on December 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
The fact that Israel also holds the return of corpses as a bargaining chip instead of promptly returning them as required under the law of war is also a violation. Really at this point it is almost easier to point to what laws of war they *aren’t* violating than which ones they are; the list is much shorter.
posted by corb at 5:50 AM on December 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
Human Rights Watch: Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza
Notably, Israeli forces’ bombing of Gaza’s last operational wheat mill on November 15 ensures that locally produced flour will be unavailable in Gaza for the foreseeable future, as highlighted by OCHA. Additionally, the UN Office for Project Services (UNOPS) said that the decimation of road networks had made it more difficult for humanitarian organizations to deliver aid to those who need it.posted by kmt at 6:54 AM on December 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Bakeries and grain mills have been destroyed, agriculture, water and sanitation facilities,” Scott Paul, a senior humanitarian policy adviser for Oxfam America, told the Associated Press on November 23.
Israel’s military actions in Gaza have also had a devastating impact on Gaza’s agricultural sector. The sustained bombardment, coupled with fuel and water shortages, alongside the displacement of more than 1.6 million people to southern Gaza, has made farming nearly impossible, according to Oxfam. In a report from November 28, OCHA said that livestock in the north are facing starvation due to the shortage of fodder and water, and that crops are increasingly abandoned and damaged due to lack of fuel to pump irrigation water. Existing problems, such as water scarcity and restricted access to farming land near the border fence, have compounded the difficulties faced by local farmers, many of whom are displaced. On November 28, the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics said that Gaza is suffering from at least a US$1.6 million daily loss in farm production.
Mod note: One comment deleted. As per the Content Policy: It can be okay to talk in strongly critical terms about people's words but don't cross the line into any threats of violence or wishing violence on other people.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:14 AM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 8:14 AM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I keep hearing about this supposed diplomatic pressure the world is going to use to stop Israel from continuing their genocidal campign, but all we've seen so far is the world shoveling ever more weapons at the IDF.
Is there any evidene AT ALL that this is anything but baseless wishful thinking? Like actual empirical evidence? Or past examples of this happening?
posted by sotonohito at 8:51 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is there any evidene AT ALL that this is anything but baseless wishful thinking? Like actual empirical evidence? Or past examples of this happening?
posted by sotonohito at 8:51 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I feel confident that if the Biden administration told Israel to cut it the fuck out right now or we're establishing a no fly zone over Gaza (which would mean shooting down Israeli jets!), they would scale back right away. But there's no political will for that right now inside the Biden camp. Otherwise, nobody can say shit to Israel that would make them listen.
posted by dis_integration at 9:47 AM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dis_integration at 9:47 AM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
'Israel's five part "post-War Gaza plan" is an open admission of indefinite occupation, forcible population transfers, territory annexing and re-education camps but it was done in the right McKinsey-speak and presented in Prostir Sans font so who's to say if it's good or bad'Adam Johnson on Twitter
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:48 AM on December 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
sotonohito: no, there's no evidence of anything of the sort happening in this particular iteration of the conflict, almost certainly because it isn't actually happening.
It definitely has happened in the past! Reagan got Israel to stop bombing Palestinians with a phone call, once; so did Biden, reportedly, back when he was Obama's VP.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:00 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
It definitely has happened in the past! Reagan got Israel to stop bombing Palestinians with a phone call, once; so did Biden, reportedly, back when he was Obama's VP.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:00 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
My apologies if I came in too hot. I only wish to express my sadness that there really are only two options now to people who are trapped in the combat zones that were, until a little over two months ago, their neighborhoods, and that it seems both attempting to flee and fighting back are equally likely to result in the deaths of Gazan civilians and fighters. For now, I will just say that I wish an end to Israel's war against the Palestinian people. I wish victory for the oppressed people in Gaza over their oppressors.
posted by Krazor at 10:05 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Krazor at 10:05 AM on December 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
fuck out right now or we're establishing a no fly zone over Gaza (which would mean shooting down Israeli jets
maybe not, my friendly giant scenerio called for massive Helo drops into Gaza with a warning. Having tallied fighter capabilities, The IDF matches the u.s. Carrier fighter capacity. It's a non starter. a no-fly zone would be most likely up to the United Nations. Besides, IDF would just use artillery to finish the policy that is scorched earth.
Israeli will have a lot to stone and I do not think the state of Israeli will ever be the same. Bibi is a war criminal who's own legal system acknowledge' his corruption.
posted by clavdivs at 1:20 PM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
maybe not, my friendly giant scenerio called for massive Helo drops into Gaza with a warning. Having tallied fighter capabilities, The IDF matches the u.s. Carrier fighter capacity. It's a non starter. a no-fly zone would be most likely up to the United Nations. Besides, IDF would just use artillery to finish the policy that is scorched earth.
Israeli will have a lot to stone and I do not think the state of Israeli will ever be the same. Bibi is a war criminal who's own legal system acknowledge' his corruption.
posted by clavdivs at 1:20 PM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've got more links to share in my usual fashion later but in the meantime please keep an eye on this if anyone can provide updates (this is about an hour ago):
HuffPo: The U.S. Is About To Make A Decision At The U.N. That Could Change Gaza's Fate
Negotiations are ongoing to get to a place where the language the US is comfortable with, if not to vote yes, then at least abstain, is my understanding. The international runway for Israel is growing short.
The other thing I'll share links with is that US warships are moving to the Red Sea however the international coalition of supporting forces doesn't atm include Australia, UK, and Canada (iirc). Iran's has also indicated public support for Yemen, who have stated that should a hot war break out, KSA and UAE oil fields will be targeted. Hezbollah in the meantime have launched missiles to the Iron Dome batteries. For this particular angle, do expect a split from Iranian democracy activists for understandable domestic reasons.
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
HuffPo: The U.S. Is About To Make A Decision At The U.N. That Could Change Gaza's Fate
Negotiations are ongoing to get to a place where the language the US is comfortable with, if not to vote yes, then at least abstain, is my understanding. The international runway for Israel is growing short.
The other thing I'll share links with is that US warships are moving to the Red Sea however the international coalition of supporting forces doesn't atm include Australia, UK, and Canada (iirc). Iran's has also indicated public support for Yemen, who have stated that should a hot war break out, KSA and UAE oil fields will be targeted. Hezbollah in the meantime have launched missiles to the Iron Dome batteries. For this particular angle, do expect a split from Iranian democracy activists for understandable domestic reasons.
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wait, my bad the coalition does include UK and Canada. Other countries listed include Bahrain, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, the Seychelles and Spain.
posted by cendawanita at 7:31 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:31 PM on December 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
ARIS ROUSSINOS: The truth about the ethnic cleansing in Gaza:
It is doubtful too, given the recent tenor of its politics, that Europe will be eager to receive them, no matter how humanitarian the language with which Israeli officials couch their planned expulsion. Rendered stateless, driven from their homes and brutalised by war, Gaza’s refugees remain unwanted by the world, perhaps destined to become, as the Jews once were, a diaspora people forever at the mercy of suspicious hosts.posted by kmt at 4:42 AM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
A terrible injustice for the Palestinians, their ethnic cleansing may yet provide Israel with a measure of security, even as it erodes the American sympathy on which the country’s existence depends. The broader question, perhaps, is whether or not the looming extinction of Palestinian life in Gaza, like the expulsion of Karabakh’s Armenians, heralds the beginning of a new era of ethnic cleansing, or merely the settling of the West’s unfinished accounts. Like the movements which bloodily reshaped Central Europe, Israel’s very existence is after all a product of the same nationalist intellectual ferment of fin-de-siècle Vienna. In 1923, while acknowledging its necessity, the British Foreign Secretary Lord Curzon called the Greco-Turkish population exchange “a thoroughly bad and vicious [idea] for which the world would pay a heavy penalty for a hundred years to come”. Exactly a century later, Gaza’s Palestinians look destined to become the final victims of Europe’s long and painful 20th century.
But there's no political will for that right now inside the Biden camp.
Biden is like -6 points against trump in Michigan right now, people tend to remember when their political leaders support genocide against their co-ethnics. If these numbers persist I’m gonna bet there’s going to be a lot more political will to put pressure on Israel sooner rather than later.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:21 AM on December 19, 2023
Biden is like -6 points against trump in Michigan right now, people tend to remember when their political leaders support genocide against their co-ethnics. If these numbers persist I’m gonna bet there’s going to be a lot more political will to put pressure on Israel sooner rather than later.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:21 AM on December 19, 2023
in the meantime please keep an eye on this if anyone can provide updates
The Security Council has two back-to-back meetings scheduled this morning dedicated to this topic. The first is underway and involved briefings by Tor Wennesland, the UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, and the Major General (whose name I didn't catch) in charge of UNTSO, the part of the UN Peacekeeping organization responsible for Israel/Palestine. This is, to the best of my recollection, the first time they've involved the Blue Helmets. Seems important.
The second meeting, 9514, for those keeping track, is presumably where they will address the new resolution. The US rep said they'd have "more to say later today", but the wording of that resolution is still under wraps as far as I know.
posted by bcd at 8:02 AM on December 19, 2023
The Security Council has two back-to-back meetings scheduled this morning dedicated to this topic. The first is underway and involved briefings by Tor Wennesland, the UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, and the Major General (whose name I didn't catch) in charge of UNTSO, the part of the UN Peacekeeping organization responsible for Israel/Palestine. This is, to the best of my recollection, the first time they've involved the Blue Helmets. Seems important.
The second meeting, 9514, for those keeping track, is presumably where they will address the new resolution. The US rep said they'd have "more to say later today", but the wording of that resolution is still under wraps as far as I know.
posted by bcd at 8:02 AM on December 19, 2023
Biden is like -6 points against trump in Michigan right now, people tend to remember when their political leaders support genocide against their co-ethnics. If these numbers persist I’m gonna bet there’s going to be a lot more political will to put pressure on Israel sooner rather than later.
Damage may already be done. Also this is centrist Democrat orthodoxy we are talking about here. They would absolutely sooner lose to Trump than be perceived as conceding a point to progressives. Think about all the amazing left-punching they can do after, the only thing they really seem to have any political enthusiasm for.
posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on December 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Damage may already be done. Also this is centrist Democrat orthodoxy we are talking about here. They would absolutely sooner lose to Trump than be perceived as conceding a point to progressives. Think about all the amazing left-punching they can do after, the only thing they really seem to have any political enthusiasm for.
posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on December 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
The head of Mossad is supposedly back in Qatar for more talks on another ceasefire. I think Biden is reluctant to throw Netanyahu a lifeline by demanding a ceasefire but he's going to walk right up to it with comments about indiscriminate bombing and acknowledging the failure of the Israelis to protect civilians. The concern is that if Biden forces a ceasefire then Netanyahu will claim he was about to destroy Hamas but was stabbed in the back.
The Israelis are going to be given all the help they need to arrange a ceasefire but Biden isn't going to demand it.
Meanwhile Israeli public opinion polls offer some hope. While Israeli's want Hamas destroyed, the safe return of the hostages is much more important. The IDF bombing hostages and shooting them is contrary to the war aims. 63% of Israelis don't think there is a clear plan of action for what to do after the war -- assuming Israel conquers Gaza. 56% of Israeli's want to amend the nation state law to ensure the full equality of non-jewish citizens. In other polling news the Israeli public also seems to be against the idea of annexing, occupying or administering Gaza in the long term.
Unfortunately the hard right settler block behind Netanyahu feels otherwise and wants to re-establish the settlements that were previously dismantled in Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 AM on December 19, 2023
The Israelis are going to be given all the help they need to arrange a ceasefire but Biden isn't going to demand it.
Meanwhile Israeli public opinion polls offer some hope. While Israeli's want Hamas destroyed, the safe return of the hostages is much more important. The IDF bombing hostages and shooting them is contrary to the war aims. 63% of Israelis don't think there is a clear plan of action for what to do after the war -- assuming Israel conquers Gaza. 56% of Israeli's want to amend the nation state law to ensure the full equality of non-jewish citizens. In other polling news the Israeli public also seems to be against the idea of annexing, occupying or administering Gaza in the long term.
Unfortunately the hard right settler block behind Netanyahu feels otherwise and wants to re-establish the settlements that were previously dismantled in Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 AM on December 19, 2023
assuming Israel conquers Gaza
I am struggling to imagine what these words mean
the reason Gaza poses any threat to Israel is Hamas. the reason Hamas exists is history. you cannot change history by mass slaughter. Gaza is conquered by just about any measure and has been for years, it's a prison. Israel controls Gaza. Hamas is the terrorism that results from hopelessness and lack of options. comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto
posted by elkevelvet at 8:51 AM on December 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
I am struggling to imagine what these words mean
the reason Gaza poses any threat to Israel is Hamas. the reason Hamas exists is history. you cannot change history by mass slaughter. Gaza is conquered by just about any measure and has been for years, it's a prison. Israel controls Gaza. Hamas is the terrorism that results from hopelessness and lack of options. comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto
posted by elkevelvet at 8:51 AM on December 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
The second meeting, 9514, for those keeping track, is presumably where they will address the new resolution. The US rep said they'd have "more to say later today", but the wording of that resolution is still under wraps as far as I know.
Or maybe not. They all filed back in as if they were about to have this meeting, milled about for 10 minutes, and then left again without ever calling the meeting to order. So, who knows?
posted by bcd at 10:06 AM on December 19, 2023
Or maybe not. They all filed back in as if they were about to have this meeting, milled about for 10 minutes, and then left again without ever calling the meeting to order. So, who knows?
posted by bcd at 10:06 AM on December 19, 2023
assuming Israel conquers Gaza
I am struggling to imagine what these words mean
They have not yet defeated Hamas (and whatever other armed groups are operating there) militarily, and it's by no means clear that they will be able to do so within the timeframe they have available for continuing the high-intensity attacks. That's what is so hard about trying to fight an asymmetrical conflict like this; all Hamas has to do is remain sufficiently viable to make some attacks and they can claim they weren't defeated, over and above the fact that Hamas is partly an ideology, not just an administrative and military apparatus.
Hamas is the terrorism that results from hopelessness and lack of options. comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto
I'm going to be honest that the constant comparisons that equate Israel with the Nazis are really distasteful. There are better rhetorical options for criticizing the situation.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:28 AM on December 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am struggling to imagine what these words mean
They have not yet defeated Hamas (and whatever other armed groups are operating there) militarily, and it's by no means clear that they will be able to do so within the timeframe they have available for continuing the high-intensity attacks. That's what is so hard about trying to fight an asymmetrical conflict like this; all Hamas has to do is remain sufficiently viable to make some attacks and they can claim they weren't defeated, over and above the fact that Hamas is partly an ideology, not just an administrative and military apparatus.
Hamas is the terrorism that results from hopelessness and lack of options. comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto
I'm going to be honest that the constant comparisons that equate Israel with the Nazis are really distasteful. There are better rhetorical options for criticizing the situation.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:28 AM on December 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
the comparisons are extremely distasteful
I'd describe what is happening with stronger words than 'distasteful'
comparisons to awful things that have happened in the past are inevitable. the comparison was with a desperate situation, the Nazis as such are part of that history but the direct comparison with Israel's far right was not made
posted by elkevelvet at 11:48 AM on December 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'd describe what is happening with stronger words than 'distasteful'
comparisons to awful things that have happened in the past are inevitable. the comparison was with a desperate situation, the Nazis as such are part of that history but the direct comparison with Israel's far right was not made
posted by elkevelvet at 11:48 AM on December 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Christa Peterson has been digging into a lot of primary and secondary sources about the history of Israel on Twitter. (The quotes below aren't bare assertions, she's got documents and photos in the tweets.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:23 PM on December 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Within a few years of claiming the Holy Land Israel almost entirely obliterated the civilization that had existed continuously there for thousands of years, layers of different cultures and people. Almost every village, some continuously occupied since the Iron Age, demolished(Nitter link to thread)
They weren’t like, shacks, they were stone villages that Palestinians had built and cared for across hundreds of years, plowed to rubble if there wasn’t a random settler to immediately occupy it because Israel didn’t want their owners to come home
The photo on the right was one of the few villages that mostly survived intact, claimed by an artist’s colony that cooed over how romantic and biblical it was while the buildings decayed because they didn’t know how to take care of them
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:23 PM on December 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dip Flash:
I find a lot of the invocations of historical Nazism distasteful as well -- and i say that as someone very pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel -- but the comparison of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, specifically, is extremely apt.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:25 PM on December 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I find a lot of the invocations of historical Nazism distasteful as well -- and i say that as someone very pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel -- but the comparison of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, specifically, is extremely apt.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:25 PM on December 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
So far, more than 100 heritage sites in Gaza have been damaged or levelled. Among them are a 2,000-year-old Roman cemetery and the Rafah Museum, which was dedicated to the region’s long and mixed religious and architectural heritage.Nesrine Malik at the Guardian
As the past is being uprooted, the future is also being curtailed. The Islamic University of Gaza, the first higher education institution established in the Gaza Strip in 1978, and which trains, among others, Gaza’s doctors and engineers, has been destroyed, along with more than 200 schools.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:37 PM on December 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
your referring to the seige of Warsaw (1939) Grossaktion Warsaw or the Warsaw ghetto uprising or Operation Heads or operation tempest or the Warsaw uprising. Is it the deportation from the ghetto to the death camps or the general Jewish resistance throughout Poland and the Soviet Union.
posted by clavdivs at 12:45 PM on December 19, 2023
posted by clavdivs at 12:45 PM on December 19, 2023
Dip Flash I am also skeptical that Israel will be able to conquer Gaza. Israeli's still seem to think they are going to win. They also seem to be in denial about the state of their own forces, the conduct of their forces with regard to the rules of war, and the growing distance between them and their allies.
posted by interogative mood at 1:10 PM on December 19, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 1:10 PM on December 19, 2023
In Shejaiya, the senior officer says the IDF has not identified any Palestinian civilians in recent days. (...) The only people seen wearing civilian clothing have been Hamas operatives, often unarmed."Anyone who runs is a VC. Anyone who stands still is a well-disciplined VC."
posted by Flunkie at 1:27 PM on December 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
An Israeli air strike hit an apartment building in Rafah — southern Gaza — today killing more than 13 including a literal infant born only at the beginning of December (and her 2 year old brother). No doubt the IDF would claim someone from Hamas was staying in that apartment building. I would say I don’t understand how anyone at this point could call this anything but immoral and genocidal but then I also know that every genocide in human history has had many people at the time (and often long after) convincing themselves that some reason or another made it either untrue or justifiable to kill even babies and toddlers.
posted by R343L at 5:37 PM on December 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by R343L at 5:37 PM on December 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
No doubt the IDF would claim someone from Hamas was staying in that apartmentI assume the infant and toddler were wearing civilian clothes, which would imply they were Hamas.
posted by Flunkie at 6:13 PM on December 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Chris Hayes: the war in Gaza must end
Honestly surprised this was aired given how much clamp down there has been on critical opinion. But it’s very measured. Note that there are somewhat graphic video segments in this.
posted by R343L at 8:28 PM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Honestly surprised this was aired given how much clamp down there has been on critical opinion. But it’s very measured. Note that there are somewhat graphic video segments in this.
posted by R343L at 8:28 PM on December 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Akbar Shahid Ahmad: NEWS: Biden has instructed the US mission to the UN to VETO a Security Council resolution on Gaza tomorrow, per a diplomat.
This comes after 2 delays in the vote & concessions on res language to win US support as well as an in-person attempt to win over Biden by the US amb to UN
This will be the second US veto over Gaza this month. The res it kills focuses on humanitarian aid & pausing fighting; it’s not a ceasefire call.
Nothing’s done til it’s done but this is the assessment of a trusted source rn. Noon vote.
In my neck of the woods:
JUST IN
Malaysia has barred Israeli-flagged ships from docking at any of its ports.
PM @anwaribrahim also announced that vessels travelling to Israel will be barred from loading cargo at Malaysian ports.
“Malaysia is confident this will not affect 🇲🇾 trade activities.”
UPDATE
The PM's Office has amended the earlier statement.
Ships belonging to Israeli shipping company ZIM will be barred from docking at Malaysian ports effective IMMEDIATELY.
In a previous version, the statement said the prohibition will take effect in four weeks time.
posted by cendawanita at 10:32 PM on December 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
This comes after 2 delays in the vote & concessions on res language to win US support as well as an in-person attempt to win over Biden by the US amb to UN
This will be the second US veto over Gaza this month. The res it kills focuses on humanitarian aid & pausing fighting; it’s not a ceasefire call.
Nothing’s done til it’s done but this is the assessment of a trusted source rn. Noon vote.
In my neck of the woods:
JUST IN
Malaysia has barred Israeli-flagged ships from docking at any of its ports.
PM @anwaribrahim also announced that vessels travelling to Israel will be barred from loading cargo at Malaysian ports.
“Malaysia is confident this will not affect 🇲🇾 trade activities.”
UPDATE
The PM's Office has amended the earlier statement.
Ships belonging to Israeli shipping company ZIM will be barred from docking at Malaysian ports effective IMMEDIATELY.
In a previous version, the statement said the prohibition will take effect in four weeks time.
posted by cendawanita at 10:32 PM on December 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also: South Africa
(From the poster)
SOUTH AFRICA WILL PROSECUTE CITIZENS FIGHTING FOR ISRAEL
- South Africans illegally joining Israeli Army
to fight in Gaza.
- Pretoria warns they risk breaking international law.
- Naturalised South Africans enlisting with IDF could be stripped of citizenship.
- President Ramaphosa says Israel's slaughter of Palestinians is genocide.
- South Africa has recalled all diplomats
from Tel Aviv.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 PM on December 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
(From the poster)
SOUTH AFRICA WILL PROSECUTE CITIZENS FIGHTING FOR ISRAEL
- South Africans illegally joining Israeli Army
to fight in Gaza.
- Pretoria warns they risk breaking international law.
- Naturalised South Africans enlisting with IDF could be stripped of citizenship.
- President Ramaphosa says Israel's slaughter of Palestinians is genocide.
- South Africa has recalled all diplomats
from Tel Aviv.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 PM on December 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Today in "every Israeli accusation is a confession", from Gaza City:
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 PM on December 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
...the IDF allegedly separated the men from the women and children, and then shot and killed at least 11 of the men, mostly aged in their late 20’s and early 30’s, in front of their family members. The IDF then allegedly ordered the women and children into a room, and either shot at them or threw a grenade into the room, reportedly seriously injuring some of them, including an infant and a child. OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awda building, although the details and circumstances of the killings are still under verification.UN Human Rights Office
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 PM on December 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't use tiktok and fedi doesn't have critical mass of palestinians, but am i the only one who's having issues trying to look for tweets today?
posted by cendawanita at 10:05 PM on December 20, 2023
posted by cendawanita at 10:05 PM on December 20, 2023
Twitter is not working at all for me today.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 10:32 PM on December 20, 2023
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 10:32 PM on December 20, 2023
adrienneleigh - I can't even...
I've read comparisons of what Israel is doing now in Gaza to the events taking place in Come and See. At first I thought that this is over the top, but with crimes like this my opinion is changing quickly.
posted by kmt at 12:20 AM on December 21, 2023
I've read comparisons of what Israel is doing now in Gaza to the events taking place in Come and See. At first I thought that this is over the top, but with crimes like this my opinion is changing quickly.
posted by kmt at 12:20 AM on December 21, 2023
I understand why people are uncomfortable with the comparisons to the Warsaw Ghetto, but I also think that most of us don't have a whole lot of other historical comparisons that are nearly as well known.
Obviously, kill the "men" and round up or force on the women and children is hardly a new strategy, but the Warsaw Ghetto is the first and best example most of us have a good mental image of. Older examples lack the technology, often lack the tight cordon of control, sometimes just lack the sheer hopelessness of the situation. It's also a good example because we understand that those who fought back in Warsaw were well within their rights, even if some call them terrorists and criminals, and an argument could be made that they made things harder on those who didn't resist.
I'm sure there's a hundred examples that actually match a little better, but I barely know the names of the cities in somewhere like Armenia, and when I do learn the details of that history, they still won't be any good for making widely accessible pleas for peace.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:58 AM on December 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Obviously, kill the "men" and round up or force on the women and children is hardly a new strategy, but the Warsaw Ghetto is the first and best example most of us have a good mental image of. Older examples lack the technology, often lack the tight cordon of control, sometimes just lack the sheer hopelessness of the situation. It's also a good example because we understand that those who fought back in Warsaw were well within their rights, even if some call them terrorists and criminals, and an argument could be made that they made things harder on those who didn't resist.
I'm sure there's a hundred examples that actually match a little better, but I barely know the names of the cities in somewhere like Armenia, and when I do learn the details of that history, they still won't be any good for making widely accessible pleas for peace.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:58 AM on December 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Well, moments ago the UN Security Council actually passed a resolution - submitted by the US and Russia jointly. No sign of the text anywhere yet, but will post when available.
posted by bcd at 7:14 AM on December 21, 2023
posted by bcd at 7:14 AM on December 21, 2023
Here is the link where the resolution will appear once it is published. They aren't specially fast at getting such things posted officially, but the placeholder link for it has shown up in the official list.
posted by bcd at 7:42 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 7:42 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
When was the last time a resolution was submitted by the US and Russia jointly? I don't pay attention to these things, but my guess is: rarely?
posted by elkevelvet at 7:46 AM on December 21, 2023
posted by elkevelvet at 7:46 AM on December 21, 2023
It certainly means the decision has already been made behind the scenes. There was no discussion before or after the vote. The entire meeting lasted less than three minutes, gavel to gavel.
UN bodies have very formalized rules with 'debate', then 'explanation before the vote', then voting, then 'explanation after the vote'. No one wanted to speak in any of those capacities on this issue.
posted by bcd at 7:52 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
UN bodies have very formalized rules with 'debate', then 'explanation before the vote', then voting, then 'explanation after the vote'. No one wanted to speak in any of those capacities on this issue.
posted by bcd at 7:52 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
My bad. It appears the resolution this morning wasn't the one they have been postponing and backroom negotiating about all week after all. It was a renewal of the mandate for UNDOF, the 'Disengagement Observer Force' monitoring the ceasefire between Israel and Syria.
They still hope the resolution about aid to Gaza will come to the floor this afternoon. Time will tell.
posted by bcd at 8:16 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
They still hope the resolution about aid to Gaza will come to the floor this afternoon. Time will tell.
posted by bcd at 8:16 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Reportedly the sticking point on the UN resolution for aid to Gaza is that literally everyone except the US and Israel thinks it would be perfectly fine and normal for the UN to take over inspection of the aid trucks, which is something they do in lots and lots of other conflicts, and which would speed things up significantly. But of course for two months now Israel has been taking the line that all the UN agencies working in Gaza are evil and antisemitic and full of Hamas supporters -- so of course they maintain that only Israeli troops can be trusted to inspect trucks full of food and medical supplies (even though the IDF has on more than one occasion destroyed said trucks even after they've been inspected and passed through Rafah).
This is an obvious pretext to keep starving and murdering Palestinians.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:29 PM on December 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is an obvious pretext to keep starving and murdering Palestinians.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:29 PM on December 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
UN says more than 1 in 4 people in Gaza are starving because of war
More than half a million people in Gaza — a quarter of the population — are starving, according to a report Thursday by the U.N. and other agencies that highlights the humanitarian crisis caused by Israel’s bombardment and siege on the territory in response to Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:57 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
The extent of the population’s hunger eclipsed even the near-famines in Afghanistan and Yemen of recent years, according to figures in the report. The report warned that the risk of famine is “increasing each day,” blaming the hunger on insufficient aid entering Gaza.
Combined with the Israeli government's plan to maintain the war for "more than several months", it seems that the Israeli government intends for the entire Gazan population be killed outright, starve, succumb to disease, or flee. The Israeli government seems to be playing a genocidal game of chicken, mainly with Egypt and Jordan, betting that other countries will admit Palestinian refugees en masse (and that the Palestinians will be desperate enough to leave their homeland) before the situation becomes so dire that internal and external pressure on the Israeli government forces them to stop committing atrocities.
I am very worried that we are rapidly passing a point of no return, and that even if the Israeli government relents in the next few days, starvation and disease may kill more people than the bombs, shells, and guns already have.
posted by jedicus at 1:18 PM on December 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
I am very worried that we are rapidly passing a point of no return, and that even if the Israeli government relents in the next few days, starvation and disease may kill more people than the bombs, shells, and guns already have.
posted by jedicus at 1:18 PM on December 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Security Council is back live on the schedule, with a 6:15 PM NYC start time, which is abnormal for them. Once again, it appears we'll have some definite news very shortly.
posted by bcd at 2:57 PM on December 21, 2023
posted by bcd at 2:57 PM on December 21, 2023
I understand why people are uncomfortable with the comparisons to the Warsaw Ghetto, but I also think that most of us don't have a whole lot of other historical comparisons that are nearly as well known
I can name about 6 that's doesn't involve the Warsaw ghetto. I think it's a terrible comparison as there's more contrast than not. I'm not going to waste alot of time to point out how disingenuous comparing the two are with all examples available.
for the legal and moral justifications I would suggest washburn's "The moral and legal justifications for dispossessing the Indians" follow that up with the Holocaust years edited by Louie Snyder.
then the cunning of History by Rubenstein
If people want to make comparisons that's fine I love it but the onus is on the person positing their thesis.
posted by clavdivs at 3:01 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can name about 6 that's doesn't involve the Warsaw ghetto. I think it's a terrible comparison as there's more contrast than not. I'm not going to waste alot of time to point out how disingenuous comparing the two are with all examples available.
for the legal and moral justifications I would suggest washburn's "The moral and legal justifications for dispossessing the Indians" follow that up with the Holocaust years edited by Louie Snyder.
then the cunning of History by Rubenstein
If people want to make comparisons that's fine I love it but the onus is on the person positing their thesis.
posted by clavdivs at 3:01 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Israeli government seems to be playing a genocidal game of chicken, mainly with Egypt and Jordan, betting that other countries will admit Palestinian refugees en masse (and that the Palestinians will be desperate enough to leave their homeland) before the situation becomes so dire that internal and external pressure on the Israeli government forces them to stop committing atrocities.
but don't use the wrong comparison or analogy, because we don't want to offend anyone
posted by elkevelvet at 3:02 PM on December 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
but don't use the wrong comparison or analogy, because we don't want to offend anyone
posted by elkevelvet at 3:02 PM on December 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
You know what? Yeah, any comparison is a bad one, because in a long history of humans finding ways to be horrible to each other, we have been wildly creative in the execution of those horrors, and the passage of time ensures that context always changes to keep things fresh as well.
We're all trying to process this and make sense of it, and try to imagine some way that there might be a path beyond this absolute nightmare, so can we not pick apart each others attempts to make this make sense without actually being helpful in expanding on those attempts?
I love this community, but sometimes I see the worst most petty impulses right here, and it makes me fear that they are unavoidable . . .
Now, can we get back to sharing information and analyses about that actual ongoing fucking tragic event?
posted by pt68 at 3:56 PM on December 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
We're all trying to process this and make sense of it, and try to imagine some way that there might be a path beyond this absolute nightmare, so can we not pick apart each others attempts to make this make sense without actually being helpful in expanding on those attempts?
I love this community, but sometimes I see the worst most petty impulses right here, and it makes me fear that they are unavoidable . . .
Now, can we get back to sharing information and analyses about that actual ongoing fucking tragic event?
posted by pt68 at 3:56 PM on December 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
To be clear: in regard to Palestine's situation overall, i think that South African Apartheid and the genocide of the Native Americans/First Nations people in the Americas are probably the two most illustrative and useful comparisons. But it boggles my mind that some folks can't acknowledge any parallels between Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:01 PM on December 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:01 PM on December 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
More than 20 countries now part of US-led Red Sea coalition: Pentagon
by all means use the comparison but kindly use that thing thesis/antithesis. Im personally not offended, I just don't think it's a very apt.
Gaza is no Warsaw Ghetto.
posted by clavdivs at 4:05 PM on December 21, 2023
by all means use the comparison but kindly use that thing thesis/antithesis. Im personally not offended, I just don't think it's a very apt.
Gaza is no Warsaw Ghetto.
posted by clavdivs at 4:05 PM on December 21, 2023
@clavdivs : the article you linked spends the first 15-20 paragraphs pointing out that the comparison is extremely apt indeed, and then turns itself inside out to throw that all away in the service of something it hasn't demonstrated. The article's entire thesis is "you shouldn't use the comparison because even though they have a whole lot of similarities, what's happening to Palestinians isn't a genocide."
Other historians and scholars of genocide, of course, disagree, and assert that what is happening to Palestinians is indeed a genocide. I'm on their side.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:16 PM on December 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
Other historians and scholars of genocide, of course, disagree, and assert that what is happening to Palestinians is indeed a genocide. I'm on their side.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:16 PM on December 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
And that's it from the UN for the day. They never returned to the chamber to vote.
posted by bcd at 4:45 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 4:45 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
adrienneleigh, the article was posted in 2009.
"The February 29, 2008 warning by Matan Vilnai, Israel’s deputy defence minister, that Palestinians risked “bringing an even bigger Shoah” (the Hebrew word for Holocaust) upon themselves if they did not stop firing Qassam rockets into Israel, reveals that Israeli officials are well aware of the magnitude of the suffering they have inflicted on the people of Gaza"
what's that.Holy smokes, there it is. sounds like a statement of the intent to commit genocide.
"If Gaza is today’s Warsaw, then Palestinians have no hope. There is no solution, no new strategies worth considering besides nihilistic violence that invites a far more deadly response."
and there it is. a warning, inevitable?
"After visiting Gaza in 2003, Oona King, a Jewish British politician, compared Gaza and Warsaw, explaining that they are “the same in nature but not extent”.
extent. I have to ask myself why only 40 people walked out of the Warsaw ghetto, after the uprise and mainly through the sewers why there was no Ghetto by mid 1943.
can someone tell me why the only 40 people walked out of the sewers.
"As a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto, I agree that the comparison is not quite accurate."
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on December 21, 2023
"The February 29, 2008 warning by Matan Vilnai, Israel’s deputy defence minister, that Palestinians risked “bringing an even bigger Shoah” (the Hebrew word for Holocaust) upon themselves if they did not stop firing Qassam rockets into Israel, reveals that Israeli officials are well aware of the magnitude of the suffering they have inflicted on the people of Gaza"
what's that.Holy smokes, there it is. sounds like a statement of the intent to commit genocide.
"If Gaza is today’s Warsaw, then Palestinians have no hope. There is no solution, no new strategies worth considering besides nihilistic violence that invites a far more deadly response."
and there it is. a warning, inevitable?
"After visiting Gaza in 2003, Oona King, a Jewish British politician, compared Gaza and Warsaw, explaining that they are “the same in nature but not extent”.
extent. I have to ask myself why only 40 people walked out of the Warsaw ghetto, after the uprise and mainly through the sewers why there was no Ghetto by mid 1943.
can someone tell me why the only 40 people walked out of the sewers.
"As a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto, I agree that the comparison is not quite accurate."
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on December 21, 2023
Looking for the details of the support from the 20 countries...
“In some cases that will include vessels. In other cases, it could include staff or other types of support,” he told a news briefing.
Last I've read, to the extent as indicated by the SCMP report, it's mainly shooting down missiles. Based on this report in Defense News (and my references are stuck in the Napoleonic era so idk)
UK - 1 Type 45 destroyer
Italy - 1 multimission frigate (I've seen memes that it's unmanned but other than the lulz I don't think there's anything to it)
France - same as Italy
Norway - 10 staff (i assume they'll provide their own boats)
The Netherlands - 2 staff (maybe same boat)
Spain - brb
The Seychelles - error 404
I haven't seen this round of reporting shared yet. It's about 2 days before the UN report about the 11 men being shot in front of their families. Well, 3 days but that was the Haaretz Hebrew piece first.
Hundreds of Gazans Arrested During War Held Blindfolded and Handcuffed at Israeli Base
A number of detainees died while being held at the base; Spokesperson for Israeli army says they were terrorists, and that the army was looking into the circumstances of their deaths (ungated)
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 PM on December 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
“In some cases that will include vessels. In other cases, it could include staff or other types of support,” he told a news briefing.
Last I've read, to the extent as indicated by the SCMP report, it's mainly shooting down missiles. Based on this report in Defense News (and my references are stuck in the Napoleonic era so idk)
UK - 1 Type 45 destroyer
Italy - 1 multimission frigate (I've seen memes that it's unmanned but other than the lulz I don't think there's anything to it)
France - same as Italy
Norway - 10 staff (i assume they'll provide their own boats)
The Netherlands - 2 staff (maybe same boat)
Spain - brb
The Seychelles - error 404
I haven't seen this round of reporting shared yet. It's about 2 days before the UN report about the 11 men being shot in front of their families. Well, 3 days but that was the Haaretz Hebrew piece first.
Hundreds of Gazans Arrested During War Held Blindfolded and Handcuffed at Israeli Base
A number of detainees died while being held at the base; Spokesperson for Israeli army says they were terrorists, and that the army was looking into the circumstances of their deaths (ungated)
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 PM on December 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
But it boggles my mind that some folks can't acknowledge any parallels between Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto.
When I was reading about the latest atrocity in Gaza the other day, I found myself muttering "liquidation of the ghetto" under my breath. Seems like a broadly apt comparison to me, particularly now that local journalists are posting videos on social media with comments like "we're just waiting to die."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:36 PM on December 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
When I was reading about the latest atrocity in Gaza the other day, I found myself muttering "liquidation of the ghetto" under my breath. Seems like a broadly apt comparison to me, particularly now that local journalists are posting videos on social media with comments like "we're just waiting to die."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:36 PM on December 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
WashPo yesterday: The case of al-Shifa: Investigating the assault on Gaza’s largest hospital (ungated)
Per summary by Raphael Mimoun -
The Washington Post examined Israeli claims about al-Shifa as well as the evidence Israel presented to the world after it took control of the hospital.
It looks like other than a few PR videos, Israel presented almost no evidence to back up its claims.
2/5
Israel claimed that:
- five hospital buildings were directly involved in Hamas activities;
- the buildings sat atop underground tunnels that were used by militants to direct rocket attacks and command fighters;
- that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards
3/5
The WashPost found:
1. No evidence of military use by Hamas of the rooms connected to the tunnels
2. No evidence the five hospital buildings identified by the IDF were connected to the tunnel network
3. No evidence the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards
4/5
From article: But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.
(...)“Before, I was convinced that [al-Shifa] was where these operations were taking place,” a senior U.S. member of Congress told The Post, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. But now, he said, “I think there has to be a new level of demonstration. They should have more proof at this point.”
(...) In the weeks since, other hospitals in Gaza have come under attack in ways that mirror what happened at al-Shifa — making the assault not just a watershed moment in the conflict, but a vital case study in Israel’s adherence to the laws of war.
(NBC) Democratic lawmakers who served in uniform and in the CIA urge Biden to push Israel to change course in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 9:21 PM on December 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
Per summary by Raphael Mimoun -
The Washington Post examined Israeli claims about al-Shifa as well as the evidence Israel presented to the world after it took control of the hospital.
It looks like other than a few PR videos, Israel presented almost no evidence to back up its claims.
2/5
Israel claimed that:
- five hospital buildings were directly involved in Hamas activities;
- the buildings sat atop underground tunnels that were used by militants to direct rocket attacks and command fighters;
- that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards
3/5
The WashPost found:
1. No evidence of military use by Hamas of the rooms connected to the tunnels
2. No evidence the five hospital buildings identified by the IDF were connected to the tunnel network
3. No evidence the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards
4/5
From article: But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.
(...)“Before, I was convinced that [al-Shifa] was where these operations were taking place,” a senior U.S. member of Congress told The Post, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter. But now, he said, “I think there has to be a new level of demonstration. They should have more proof at this point.”
(...) In the weeks since, other hospitals in Gaza have come under attack in ways that mirror what happened at al-Shifa — making the assault not just a watershed moment in the conflict, but a vital case study in Israel’s adherence to the laws of war.
(NBC) Democratic lawmakers who served in uniform and in the CIA urge Biden to push Israel to change course in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 9:21 PM on December 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
In related news:
Red Sea situation
several of the ultra-large containerships which had been stuck in the Red Sea between the Houthis in the south and a Suez transit to the north have now started moving, ready to pay another canal toll and to transit across the Mediterranean and down the west coast of Africa in order to get to Asia.
Shipping firms are avoiding the Red Sea as Houthi attacks increase.
posted by adamvasco at 5:20 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Red Sea situation
several of the ultra-large containerships which had been stuck in the Red Sea between the Houthis in the south and a Suez transit to the north have now started moving, ready to pay another canal toll and to transit across the Mediterranean and down the west coast of Africa in order to get to Asia.
Shipping firms are avoiding the Red Sea as Houthi attacks increase.
posted by adamvasco at 5:20 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will say when you see what the Houthis are doing you start to understand why the US is so invested in maintaining ties to friendly powers in the region like the Saudis and the Israelis. Shipping has not had to circumnavigate Africa to reach the West for 154 years. In many ways 20th century was built by the Suez and Panama canals and with the offshoring of manufacture to Asia in the past 40 years the entire economy of the West relies on 120 miles of canal carved out of the Sinai peninsula. If the Houthis keep this up I don't know how NATO will resist strikes on Yemen. God help us all. It's the bad times.
posted by dis_integration at 7:33 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dis_integration at 7:33 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can name about 6 that's doesn't involve the Warsaw ghetto.
Go ahead and name them, for reference.
posted by Artw at 8:16 AM on December 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Go ahead and name them, for reference.
posted by Artw at 8:16 AM on December 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
dis_integration:
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:24 AM on December 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
If the Houthis keep this up I don't know how NATO will resist strikes on Yemen. God help us all. It's the bad times.I mean, the US could instead make Israel stop committing genocide, which seems like it'd be a lot cheaper and easier? Like, Ansarallah has made very clear what needs to happen for them to stop interfering with ocean traffic in the Red Sea; this isn't some kind of mysterious harassment with no known cause by the Houthis.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:24 AM on December 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
If the Houthis keep this up I don't know how NATO will resist strikes on Yemen.
I have wondered the same thing, though I doubt it would be NATO per se leading the charge, more of a "coalition of the willing" with the firepower coming from major western naval powers. But historically, the countries with major navies have had those expensive naval forces both for deterrence and for the eventuality where they eventually come down hard on people who are disrupting trade route. (Someone made a reference to the Barbary pirates above, as an example of this.) I'm guessing there is only so long that they're willing to let an Iranian proxy force close off this shipping route.
But, the Houthis are way better supplied than, say, some ragtag Somali pirates with skiffs, so I don't know how realistic it even is to try and reduce that threat militarily.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:48 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have wondered the same thing, though I doubt it would be NATO per se leading the charge, more of a "coalition of the willing" with the firepower coming from major western naval powers. But historically, the countries with major navies have had those expensive naval forces both for deterrence and for the eventuality where they eventually come down hard on people who are disrupting trade route. (Someone made a reference to the Barbary pirates above, as an example of this.) I'm guessing there is only so long that they're willing to let an Iranian proxy force close off this shipping route.
But, the Houthis are way better supplied than, say, some ragtag Somali pirates with skiffs, so I don't know how realistic it even is to try and reduce that threat militarily.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:48 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
We are finally gaveled in for a vote on the latest humanitarian aid resolution at the Security Council.
posted by bcd at 8:53 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 8:53 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The official UN News organization is live blogging this process.
posted by bcd at 9:00 AM on December 22, 2023
posted by bcd at 9:00 AM on December 22, 2023
The US has vetoed an amendment that would strengthen the language a tiny bit, which will likely result in Russia vetoing the actual resolution.
posted by bcd at 9:06 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 9:06 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ah.. both US and Russia have abstained from the actual vote on the resolution, allowing it to pass. Weak sauce, but probably the best we were going to get.
posted by bcd at 9:09 AM on December 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bcd at 9:09 AM on December 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was watching this Democracy Now bit with Phyllis Bennis that also helped to clarify something I didn't realize there's been a change of: a recent regulations change has made it that if a UNSC vote gets vetoed, the same resolution can get to be voted by the UNGA, and because it's to vote on something with UNSC's authority (or something of the sort), the ensuing resolution will not be the typical non-binding UNGA one. Anyway, this supposedly explains the reluctance for the US to employ the veto again.
posted by cendawanita at 9:27 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 9:27 AM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The language in dispute was the US wanting language calling the parties to "create conditions for a cessation of hostilities" versus everyone else wanting "calls for an urgent suspension of hostilities to allow safe and unhindered humanitarian access and for urgent steps towards a sustainable cessation of hostilities".
The US version is what passed.
Russia is a bad actor, but their explanation about the problem with the passed language seems on the nose to me. Israel will surely take "creating the conditions for a cessation of hostilities" to include the "destruction, displacement or the exile of the population of Gaza." After all, that would end hostilities, right? Feh.
posted by bcd at 9:37 AM on December 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
The US version is what passed.
Russia is a bad actor, but their explanation about the problem with the passed language seems on the nose to me. Israel will surely take "creating the conditions for a cessation of hostilities" to include the "destruction, displacement or the exile of the population of Gaza." After all, that would end hostilities, right? Feh.
posted by bcd at 9:37 AM on December 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
From the region into Palestine (in some sort of order):
(Al-Jazeera) Beyond Gaza: How Yemen’s Houthis gain from attacking Red Sea ships - The group’s position on a critical maritime choke point gives them leverage in diplomatic talks over Yemen’s future.
(The Cradle) US pressures Saudi Arabia to postpone imminent peace deal with Yemen - Although a peace deal is reportedly ready to be signed, Washington wants the kingdom to instead join a naval 'task force' that will confront Sanaa's forces in support of Israel
Speaking about that. (US Politico) Beijing shrugs at U.S. call for help protecting Red Sea shipping
China’s disinterest in Red Sea policing role underscores Beijing’s reluctance to back its rhetoric on Middle East peace with substantive action.
Add international airspace too. (North Africa Post) U.S.A.-Algeria: Political tension leads Algiers to deny airspace to U.S. military plane -
According to ACARS messages published by Spanish daily, the American aircraft took off from U.S. naval base in Rota (Southern Spain) at 20:27 PM on December 9 heading for Algiers.
After nearly a three-hour flight, the C17 aircraft crew made a U-turn when Algerian air-controllers told them they were not allowed to fly over their territory.
The incident raises questions as the U.S. military planes used to operate non-stop flights over Algerian airspace without any restrictions even during the Gaza war.
According to some analysts, the Algerian regime was irked by the supportive remarks of U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary to Morocco’s autonomy plan for the Sahara. He describes it as “serious, credible, and realistic” solution, without saying a word on self-determination referendum or Polisario, the Algeria-backed armed militia.
(Ashraq Al-Awsat) Jordan's King Says Israeli Actions in Gaza Risk ‘Catastrophic Repercussions’ - it's basically a readout from the palace from the meeting with Macron.
Speaking of Macron... (WashPo) Biden and Netanyahu heading for a collision on postwar agenda (ungated) -
Netanyahu’s hard-line position is also complicating U.S. efforts to persuade Arab leaders to help rebuild Gaza and guide its political transition after the war. In meetings with top Biden officials, Arab leaders have made clear they will not help with the reconstruction of Gaza without the promise of a “political horizon,” meaning a Palestinian state.
(...) Besides urging Biden to pressure Egyptian President Abdel Fatah El-Sisi on this issue, Netanyahu has made a similar ask of British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and French President Emmanuel Macron during their respective visits to Israel, according to three diplomats and one senior administration official familiar with the matter, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential diplomacy. Both leaders refused the proposal out of hand.
Anyway. (HuffPo) Amid U.N. Security Council Intrigue, U.S. Privately Moves To Block Another Option For International Accountability For Gaza - The Biden administration is finalizing plans to urge Switzerland to reject a request from Palestine and its supporters to hold a conference on violations of the Geneva Conventions.
Well, this is interesting? (Semafor) Israel accepts Palestinian Authority role in post-war Gaza - The Israeli government, for the first time, signaled its willingness to allow the Palestinian Authority to govern the Gaza Strip after military operations against the militant group Hamas cease.
Heh. (Al-Jazeera op-ed) Watching the watchdogs: Why the West misinterprets Middle East power shifts
This just-posted Democracy Now interview with the president of Dar al-Kalima University, Reverend Mitri Raheb is a pretty good summary of a few other pieces I wanted to share: Christmas Canceled in Bethlehem as Churches Mourn 20,000+ Palestinians Killed in Gaza.
These included bits about how it's likely there won't be much of a Christian population left, the oldest and most continuous in the world, a pretty infamous interview with the deputy mayor of Jerusalem who claimed there are no Christians (because Hamas), the role of Christian Zionists, and this piece of reporting: (US Politico) Congressional staff tried to protect Gazan churches by sending locations to Israel - The Israeli military received and confirmed the coordinates of the church and covenant in Gaza, both of which aid groups say were later struck by rockets and snipers.
And with just only a weekend left to December 25. (NYT) A Times Investigation Tracked Israel’s Use of One of Its Most Destructive Bombs in South Gaza - Ultimately, the investigation identified 208 craters in satellite imagery and drone footage. Because of limited satellite imagery and variations in a bomb’s effects, there are likely to have been many cases that were not captured. But the findings reveal that 2,000-pound bombs posed a pervasive threat to civilians seeking safety across south Gaza.
Happy Christmas.
posted by cendawanita at 10:00 AM on December 22, 2023 [15 favorites]
(Al-Jazeera) Beyond Gaza: How Yemen’s Houthis gain from attacking Red Sea ships - The group’s position on a critical maritime choke point gives them leverage in diplomatic talks over Yemen’s future.
(The Cradle) US pressures Saudi Arabia to postpone imminent peace deal with Yemen - Although a peace deal is reportedly ready to be signed, Washington wants the kingdom to instead join a naval 'task force' that will confront Sanaa's forces in support of Israel
Speaking about that. (US Politico) Beijing shrugs at U.S. call for help protecting Red Sea shipping
China’s disinterest in Red Sea policing role underscores Beijing’s reluctance to back its rhetoric on Middle East peace with substantive action.
Add international airspace too. (North Africa Post) U.S.A.-Algeria: Political tension leads Algiers to deny airspace to U.S. military plane -
According to ACARS messages published by Spanish daily, the American aircraft took off from U.S. naval base in Rota (Southern Spain) at 20:27 PM on December 9 heading for Algiers.
After nearly a three-hour flight, the C17 aircraft crew made a U-turn when Algerian air-controllers told them they were not allowed to fly over their territory.
The incident raises questions as the U.S. military planes used to operate non-stop flights over Algerian airspace without any restrictions even during the Gaza war.
According to some analysts, the Algerian regime was irked by the supportive remarks of U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary to Morocco’s autonomy plan for the Sahara. He describes it as “serious, credible, and realistic” solution, without saying a word on self-determination referendum or Polisario, the Algeria-backed armed militia.
(Ashraq Al-Awsat) Jordan's King Says Israeli Actions in Gaza Risk ‘Catastrophic Repercussions’ - it's basically a readout from the palace from the meeting with Macron.
Speaking of Macron... (WashPo) Biden and Netanyahu heading for a collision on postwar agenda (ungated) -
Netanyahu’s hard-line position is also complicating U.S. efforts to persuade Arab leaders to help rebuild Gaza and guide its political transition after the war. In meetings with top Biden officials, Arab leaders have made clear they will not help with the reconstruction of Gaza without the promise of a “political horizon,” meaning a Palestinian state.
(...) Besides urging Biden to pressure Egyptian President Abdel Fatah El-Sisi on this issue, Netanyahu has made a similar ask of British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and French President Emmanuel Macron during their respective visits to Israel, according to three diplomats and one senior administration official familiar with the matter, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential diplomacy. Both leaders refused the proposal out of hand.
Anyway. (HuffPo) Amid U.N. Security Council Intrigue, U.S. Privately Moves To Block Another Option For International Accountability For Gaza - The Biden administration is finalizing plans to urge Switzerland to reject a request from Palestine and its supporters to hold a conference on violations of the Geneva Conventions.
Well, this is interesting? (Semafor) Israel accepts Palestinian Authority role in post-war Gaza - The Israeli government, for the first time, signaled its willingness to allow the Palestinian Authority to govern the Gaza Strip after military operations against the militant group Hamas cease.
Heh. (Al-Jazeera op-ed) Watching the watchdogs: Why the West misinterprets Middle East power shifts
This just-posted Democracy Now interview with the president of Dar al-Kalima University, Reverend Mitri Raheb is a pretty good summary of a few other pieces I wanted to share: Christmas Canceled in Bethlehem as Churches Mourn 20,000+ Palestinians Killed in Gaza.
These included bits about how it's likely there won't be much of a Christian population left, the oldest and most continuous in the world, a pretty infamous interview with the deputy mayor of Jerusalem who claimed there are no Christians (because Hamas), the role of Christian Zionists, and this piece of reporting: (US Politico) Congressional staff tried to protect Gazan churches by sending locations to Israel - The Israeli military received and confirmed the coordinates of the church and covenant in Gaza, both of which aid groups say were later struck by rockets and snipers.
And with just only a weekend left to December 25. (NYT) A Times Investigation Tracked Israel’s Use of One of Its Most Destructive Bombs in South Gaza - Ultimately, the investigation identified 208 craters in satellite imagery and drone footage. Because of limited satellite imagery and variations in a bomb’s effects, there are likely to have been many cases that were not captured. But the findings reveal that 2,000-pound bombs posed a pervasive threat to civilians seeking safety across south Gaza.
Happy Christmas.
posted by cendawanita at 10:00 AM on December 22, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Israeli government, for the first time, signaled its willingness to allow the Palestinian Authority to govern the Gaza Strip after military operations against the militant group Hamas cease.
Because it's increasingly difficult to be too cynical about this, I wonder if this is because support for Hamas has significantly increased since the war and ~90% of Palestinians want Abbas to resign. Thus, the Israeli government backing the PA seems an awful lot like a simple variation on its prior tactic of propping up Hamas in order to keep the Palestinians divided.
posted by jedicus at 10:19 AM on December 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
Because it's increasingly difficult to be too cynical about this, I wonder if this is because support for Hamas has significantly increased since the war and ~90% of Palestinians want Abbas to resign. Thus, the Israeli government backing the PA seems an awful lot like a simple variation on its prior tactic of propping up Hamas in order to keep the Palestinians divided.
posted by jedicus at 10:19 AM on December 22, 2023 [12 favorites]
Israeli acceptance of PA civil administration of Gaza is an important step forward because there really was no plausible alternative to it. Israel can't do it, and (by hypothesis of the war ending) Hamas can't do it because all Hamas people will be dead or exiled.
posted by MattD at 10:50 AM on December 22, 2023
posted by MattD at 10:50 AM on December 22, 2023
Masha Gessen Responds to Controversy After Comparing Gaza to a Nazi Ghetto
posted by nikoniko at 11:44 AM on December 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by nikoniko at 11:44 AM on December 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
sorry to contribute to the rancor, I can see the value of sharing information on what is happening and I appreciate the updates from cendawanita, bcd, adrienneleigh, and others
I don't see how we'd restrict this thread to being informed etc, this is eliciting strong emotions obviously. if the Warsaw Ghetto comparison is offensive to some, just know that it's a comparison being made for a reason whether you agree or not.
@ clavdivs, no thesis/antithesis from me. I appreciate the historical context you share, you also are known for your cryptic drive-bys at times and you know what, not every strong opinion needs an argued defence
posted by elkevelvet at 12:27 PM on December 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't see how we'd restrict this thread to being informed etc, this is eliciting strong emotions obviously. if the Warsaw Ghetto comparison is offensive to some, just know that it's a comparison being made for a reason whether you agree or not.
@ clavdivs, no thesis/antithesis from me. I appreciate the historical context you share, you also are known for your cryptic drive-bys at times and you know what, not every strong opinion needs an argued defence
posted by elkevelvet at 12:27 PM on December 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
MattD: I mean, the plausible alternative is that the people of Palestine get to decide who governs them, because it's not actually up to Israel?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:00 PM on December 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:00 PM on December 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
Like, it grinds my gears the way so many people in here discuss it as a given that Israel's (pretextual) goal is reasonable and legal, and that it has some right to dictate how the Palestinian people conduct their affairs! Eliminating Hamas isn't Israel's real goal, of course; its real goal is genocide and annexation -- but even if it were, it's absolutely bonkers that people think this is something Israel has any legal or moral voice in!
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:08 PM on December 22, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:08 PM on December 22, 2023 [16 favorites]
I dislike the way so many in the media accept the framing that there is some set of circumstances which makes it morally permissible to blow up a hospital, kill the patients currently inside, kill many doctors, and in the long run extend agony and multiply deaths due to the absence of a hospital.
Look at the WaPo:
"The Washington Post examined Israeli claims about al-Shifa as well as the evidence Israel presented to the world after it took control of the hospital."
It doesn't matter if they concluded that Israel lied, the problem is that they accepted the framing that if Israel hadn't lied then what they did would have been OK.
We need to be vocal in rejecting that framing. There is no context in which it's OK to blow up
a hospital. Or a school. Or a water purification plant. Or an electrical substation or generator. Or any critical infrastructure.
It does not matter if there were Hamas fighters there or not and while it's always correct to find and publicize the truth, it is incorrect to focus on determining if Israel lied about Hamas being at the hospital as if it determined whether or not blowing up the hospital was right.
posted by sotonohito at 1:24 PM on December 22, 2023 [16 favorites]
Look at the WaPo:
"The Washington Post examined Israeli claims about al-Shifa as well as the evidence Israel presented to the world after it took control of the hospital."
It doesn't matter if they concluded that Israel lied, the problem is that they accepted the framing that if Israel hadn't lied then what they did would have been OK.
We need to be vocal in rejecting that framing. There is no context in which it's OK to blow up
a hospital. Or a school. Or a water purification plant. Or an electrical substation or generator. Or any critical infrastructure.
It does not matter if there were Hamas fighters there or not and while it's always correct to find and publicize the truth, it is incorrect to focus on determining if Israel lied about Hamas being at the hospital as if it determined whether or not blowing up the hospital was right.
posted by sotonohito at 1:24 PM on December 22, 2023 [16 favorites]
Israel lost its moral stance when it began indiscriminate bombing. Israel is most likely going to be charged with crimes against humanity. I respect your position about genocide, it's quit damming but the Warsaw ghetto has to many contrasts for me to accept a apt comparison that's leaves no doubt. and that doubt gets little each day.
It is my belief that Israeli should have no role on post Gaza save contributing to infrastructure like water, travel rights.
I'm slightly disturbed by my own reluctance which I believe is the last vestige of any bias that I have.
one of the threads, I believed this was some sort of hybrid ghettoization and was not quite comfortable with apartheid because of its nature. But it is apt and I do agree with comparisons historically.
1. America. African Americans and native people.
2.Myanmar
3.To some extent the Soweto uprising.
4.Chechnaya
5. Kurdish repression
6 Preah Vihear pushback. (Dangrek)
7. oppression of the ainu people.
not to keen on that but it shows long periods of oppression and cultural differences.
none really fit the criteria perfectly for gaza.
posted by clavdivs at 2:02 PM on December 22, 2023
It is my belief that Israeli should have no role on post Gaza save contributing to infrastructure like water, travel rights.
I'm slightly disturbed by my own reluctance which I believe is the last vestige of any bias that I have.
one of the threads, I believed this was some sort of hybrid ghettoization and was not quite comfortable with apartheid because of its nature. But it is apt and I do agree with comparisons historically.
1. America. African Americans and native people.
2.Myanmar
3.To some extent the Soweto uprising.
4.Chechnaya
5. Kurdish repression
6 Preah Vihear pushback. (Dangrek)
7. oppression of the ainu people.
not to keen on that but it shows long periods of oppression and cultural differences.
none really fit the criteria perfectly for gaza.
posted by clavdivs at 2:02 PM on December 22, 2023
I dislike the way so many in the media accept the framing that there is some set of circumstances which makes it morally permissible to blow up a--
Just a personal observation but from my vantage point the antisemitism I hear from my people (inc philosemitism) growing up had the same tenor of casual anti-arab sentiments i picked up from americans (minus the philo- part as much, since Rambo 3 doesn't count since they're not Arabs). It was always so relentless and unthinking and that was before 9/11. Imagine, I picked it up from watching Joan Rivers, of all people, that's one of my earliest memories.
There's a lot of reckoning to be had, if we can at least accept that US's commitment to Israel’s future is real and valid, it had led to normalized framing that needed Arabs to be dismissed and dehumanized. First as a natural consequence of colonial thinking that everyone inherited post-ww2, then it's as normal as the air we breath as we pivot to a "rules-based international order ", so then even then it's ever been natural to not consider Arabs as genuine interlocutors and stakeholders and deserving of rights.
Or you know, whatever Edward Said wrote.
posted by cendawanita at 5:50 PM on December 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
Just a personal observation but from my vantage point the antisemitism I hear from my people (inc philosemitism) growing up had the same tenor of casual anti-arab sentiments i picked up from americans (minus the philo- part as much, since Rambo 3 doesn't count since they're not Arabs). It was always so relentless and unthinking and that was before 9/11. Imagine, I picked it up from watching Joan Rivers, of all people, that's one of my earliest memories.
There's a lot of reckoning to be had, if we can at least accept that US's commitment to Israel’s future is real and valid, it had led to normalized framing that needed Arabs to be dismissed and dehumanized. First as a natural consequence of colonial thinking that everyone inherited post-ww2, then it's as normal as the air we breath as we pivot to a "rules-based international order ", so then even then it's ever been natural to not consider Arabs as genuine interlocutors and stakeholders and deserving of rights.
Or you know, whatever Edward Said wrote.
posted by cendawanita at 5:50 PM on December 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
D'oh. just yesterday I was thinking of this.
"He published numerous books, such as Orientalism (1978) and Culture of Imperialism (1993), which argued that this scholarship was biased and projected a false and stereotyped vision of “otherness” on the Islamic world that facilitated Western colonial policy."
posted by clavdivs at 7:24 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
"He published numerous books, such as Orientalism (1978) and Culture of Imperialism (1993), which argued that this scholarship was biased and projected a false and stereotyped vision of “otherness” on the Islamic world that facilitated Western colonial policy."
posted by clavdivs at 7:24 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Upon arriving at a scene of destruction in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike, the civil defense workers must quickly try to get a sense of what they are dealing with. “We usually don’t know who is stuck underneath or how many people we are looking for, so we call into the rubble asking if anyone is alive who can tell us how many people lived in this home,” Musa said. “We scream until someone hears us. Sometimes we get a response immediately, but often we simply hear groans, which we try to follow in order to save those people.”Gaza’s rescue workers are haunted by those they couldn’t save (972 magazine)
A scenario that Gaza’s rescue workers have been encountering regularly is having to try to calm children who are stuck beneath the ruins of their home. “The children call out from the rubble asking about their family members,” Musa continued. “We sometimes lie and tell them everyone is okay so that they don’t go into shock. Other times, they call out to tell us that a family member lying next to them has been martyred.”
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:46 AM on December 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
The full text of yesterday's resolution still isn't published on the usual UN Documents site, but it is available from the first-party UN News site here.
posted by bcd at 10:48 AM on December 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 10:48 AM on December 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
So in practice what does that actually mean?
IIRC UN resolutions have no real enforcement mechanism and are basically just requests, right?
posted by sotonohito at 2:07 PM on December 23, 2023
IIRC UN resolutions have no real enforcement mechanism and are basically just requests, right?
posted by sotonohito at 2:07 PM on December 23, 2023
I see Russia abstained. huh.
In order for the resolution to be binding, a non involved state or states must take any enforcement role in conjuction with the UN.
so yeah, a good first step but miles to go before blue helmets show.
posted by clavdivs at 2:23 PM on December 23, 2023
In order for the resolution to be binding, a non involved state or states must take any enforcement role in conjuction with the UN.
so yeah, a good first step but miles to go before blue helmets show.
posted by clavdivs at 2:23 PM on December 23, 2023
The order enumerates eight topics the media are forbidden from reporting on without prior approval from the Israeli Military Censor. Some of the topics touch on hot-button political issues in Israel and internationally, such as potentially embarrassing revelations about weapons used by Israel or captured by Hamas, discussions of security cabinet meetings, and the Israeli hostages in Gaza — an issue that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been widely criticized for mishandling.
The memo also bans reporting on details of military operations, Israeli intelligence, rocket attacks that hit sensitive locations in Israel, cyberattacks, and visits by senior military officials to the battlefield.
EXCLUSIVE: ISRAELI MILITARY CENSOR BANS REPORTING ON THESE 8 SUBJECTS (The Intercept)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:45 PM on December 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Thursday 21 dec
UN says more than 1 in 4 people in Gaza are starving because of war.
That's half a million people.
That's right. Israel is not only killing civilians, destroying and driving them out of their homes, it is also deliberately starving 500,000 people.
posted by adamvasco at 12:11 PM on December 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
UN says more than 1 in 4 people in Gaza are starving because of war.
That's half a million people.
That's right. Israel is not only killing civilians, destroying and driving them out of their homes, it is also deliberately starving 500,000 people.
posted by adamvasco at 12:11 PM on December 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yoav Litvin The anatomy of Zionist genocide
What are the motivations behind Israel’s genocidal acts in Gaza, and what is the way forward?
Also a twitter /X thread
The current genocide of the Palestinian people is the result of an alliance between the Israeli government and military. Both with the need to cover up their October 7th blunder in which they were directly responsible for the murder of Israeli citizens.
posted by adamvasco at 8:53 AM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
What are the motivations behind Israel’s genocidal acts in Gaza, and what is the way forward?
Also a twitter /X thread
The current genocide of the Palestinian people is the result of an alliance between the Israeli government and military. Both with the need to cover up their October 7th blunder in which they were directly responsible for the murder of Israeli citizens.
posted by adamvasco at 8:53 AM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
The poet Mosab Abu Toha talks about his abduction by the IDF and flight from Gaza.
posted by Artw at 3:53 PM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:53 PM on December 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Gaza war puts US’s extensive weapons stockpile in Israel under scrutiny
Israel appears to be receiving munitions from stockpile, but there has been little transparency
posted by adamvasco at 2:32 AM on December 27, 2023
Israel appears to be receiving munitions from stockpile, but there has been little transparency
posted by adamvasco at 2:32 AM on December 27, 2023
Making the same point as quite a few commenters here have made all the way back to the first discussions of this, here's a NY Times article about all the reasons that "destroying Hamas" is not a realistic goal.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:40 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:40 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing
Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told his supporters that he is working on finding countries ready to "absorb" Palestinians from Gaza.
The Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom said Netanyahu made the comments at a meeting of his Likud party on Monday, in which he sought to clarify Israel's plans for after the war had ended.
posted by adamvasco at 7:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told his supporters that he is working on finding countries ready to "absorb" Palestinians from Gaza.
The Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom said Netanyahu made the comments at a meeting of his Likud party on Monday, in which he sought to clarify Israel's plans for after the war had ended.
posted by adamvasco at 7:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dip Flash, adamvasco, I'm about to start a fresh thread - May I use your newest links to build the FPP?
posted by cendawanita at 7:39 AM on December 27, 2023
posted by cendawanita at 7:39 AM on December 27, 2023
All right folks, new thread is here >>>>>>
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
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posted by cendawanita at 8:09 AM on November 28, 2023 [16 favorites]