You’re Supposed To Be Glad Your Tesla Is A Brittle Heap Of Junk
December 26, 2023 9:02 PM Subscribe
"Tesla cars are shoddily built pieces of shit liable to fall apart and malfunction in dangerous ways at inopportune moments. No, this is not a blog from 2012! It is also not a blog from 2015 or 2018 or 2022. On Wednesday, Reuters published a big, thorough investigative story documenting a pattern of major parts failures on low-mileage Tesla vehicles—and Tesla's organized years-long effort to obscure the pattern and offload its costs onto drivers, so as to sustain the illusion that it is a profitable company making cars that are not piece-of-shit death traps. The reason Tesla hasn't "worked all the bugs out yet" is that the company is run by people who hold established best practice in ideological contempt, and is defined by a tech-industry culture that fetishizes innovation and regards product quality as a third-order concern."
My experiences with Teslas—several now—sure are not at all like the tales in this article. I haven’t had anything other than a couple minor problems.
posted by bz at 9:43 PM on December 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by bz at 9:43 PM on December 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
run by people who hold established best practice in ideological contempt, and is defined by a tech-industry culture that fetishizes innovation
Yes. This.
I watched one company I worked for struggle for years to build effective internal support tools/utilities/systems. We could at any time have just chosen to use somebody else's tools or systems. It wasn't our core business. Nobody in house had expertise in designing or building these things. The first or second or even third iterations of some of the tools were frankly embarrassing garbage. But nobody wanted to use someone else's stuff. It's called NIH syndrome -- Not Invented Here. It's everywhere in tech.
And it's one thing when the stakes are relatively low, when you're building software or phones or disposable gadgets. Failure means lower adoption, or losing market share, or worst-case-scenario, laying off some folks or going out of business. I don't know if it's a commendable approach even with those stakes, but at least you can just roll your eyes and get on with your day.
But when the stakes are your lives, or the lives or safety of your family or of other innocent road users... yeah, no. Fuck that. It's beyond irresponsible to apply those low-stakes techbro rules to these industries. It's sociopathic, full stop.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:50 PM on December 26, 2023 [52 favorites]
Yes. This.
I watched one company I worked for struggle for years to build effective internal support tools/utilities/systems. We could at any time have just chosen to use somebody else's tools or systems. It wasn't our core business. Nobody in house had expertise in designing or building these things. The first or second or even third iterations of some of the tools were frankly embarrassing garbage. But nobody wanted to use someone else's stuff. It's called NIH syndrome -- Not Invented Here. It's everywhere in tech.
And it's one thing when the stakes are relatively low, when you're building software or phones or disposable gadgets. Failure means lower adoption, or losing market share, or worst-case-scenario, laying off some folks or going out of business. I don't know if it's a commendable approach even with those stakes, but at least you can just roll your eyes and get on with your day.
But when the stakes are your lives, or the lives or safety of your family or of other innocent road users... yeah, no. Fuck that. It's beyond irresponsible to apply those low-stakes techbro rules to these industries. It's sociopathic, full stop.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:50 PM on December 26, 2023 [52 favorites]
With the caveat that I’m no business expert… I don’t see how Tesla is going to be able to sustain its business going forward. There have been a lot of posts and news stories online over the years of Tesla's build quality issues as well as warranty denials, and this report falls in line with that. The real problem is that they’re not the only game in town for EVs now. Almost all of the auto manufacturers are moving into the EV space and some of them are going really big. Tesla is going to be facing very stiff price competition from companies that are a lot better at mass production of cars, and with vast dealer networks. For the last several years, if you wanted an electric vehicle, Tesla was it. That’s not the case anymore. These kinds of quality problems - and particularly the warranty denials - can cost them customers to competitors that didn’t exist previously.
posted by azpenguin at 10:08 PM on December 26, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 10:08 PM on December 26, 2023 [16 favorites]
run by people who hold established best practice in ideological contempt
"Move fast and break things" and all that type of bullshit.
Combine that with VC financing, the idea that your business plan is to drive the competition out of the market by grabbing all the market share via massively subsidized sales or give-a-ways (using your deep-pocketed VC money to fund this as long as necessary) then somehow make a profit later after you've cornered the market and driven all the competition out of business and/or acquired them, and a general idea that laws and regulations are for other people but definitely not for you.
This all works fine as long as your product is cat videos or memes or porn or whatever. But collide this mindset with the real world wear people actually live, work, and die - and the results can be pretty damn bad.
Combining all this with the literal worship of billionaire "geniuses" who are running all these shows can only make the results even worse.
My SO worked in healthcare/health services IT for a long time, and honestly it was nothing short of infuriating to see this kind of mindset at work - slap something together in the quickest possible time without any regard whatsoever for current best practices, maintainability, or anything else other than "slap X features together in time for the next release in 6-10 weeks".
That was literally the thinking horizon.
FWIW this is the reason billions to trillions of dollars have been spent in the arena of self-driving vehicles, yet an actually functional, safe, independent (ie, not requiring an average of 1.5 minders monitoring it from afar) self-driving vehicle is still not anything close to being achieved.
Speaking of which: How many years now has Elon been promising the "full self driving" is just a few months down the road?
Yet, still not here. And in fact the recent Tesla "self-driving" recall yanked back most of the "progress" that had been made on the system. Because the progress wasn't progress at all but simply a series of PR moves that put Tesla drivers - and the public at large - at risk.
Remember all of Musk's claims that self-driving was many times safer than human drivers?
Real-world data from Nov 2022-Nov 2023 shows that Tesla actually had the highest collision rate of any automobile brand. Just by way of comparison, Tesla had 23.5 collisions per 1000 drivers while brands while brands like Pontiac, Mercury, and Saturn were more like 8 or 9.
A lot of things go into the reasons one brand has more collisions and crashes than another - including what kind of driver the brand attracts, what kind of driving the vehicle encourages, and so on.
If Musk's claims - dating back many years - about the safety net created by Tesla's technology were actually anything close to true, their fleet collision record would be something like 3 or 5 or 7 per thousand - ie, better than any other brand on the road - not worse.
Where ego, technology, human behavior, and attention to safety (or, more precisely, the complete lack of it) collide is where we are standing now.
posted by flug at 10:24 PM on December 26, 2023 [53 favorites]
"Move fast and break things" and all that type of bullshit.
Combine that with VC financing, the idea that your business plan is to drive the competition out of the market by grabbing all the market share via massively subsidized sales or give-a-ways (using your deep-pocketed VC money to fund this as long as necessary) then somehow make a profit later after you've cornered the market and driven all the competition out of business and/or acquired them, and a general idea that laws and regulations are for other people but definitely not for you.
This all works fine as long as your product is cat videos or memes or porn or whatever. But collide this mindset with the real world wear people actually live, work, and die - and the results can be pretty damn bad.
Combining all this with the literal worship of billionaire "geniuses" who are running all these shows can only make the results even worse.
My SO worked in healthcare/health services IT for a long time, and honestly it was nothing short of infuriating to see this kind of mindset at work - slap something together in the quickest possible time without any regard whatsoever for current best practices, maintainability, or anything else other than "slap X features together in time for the next release in 6-10 weeks".
That was literally the thinking horizon.
FWIW this is the reason billions to trillions of dollars have been spent in the arena of self-driving vehicles, yet an actually functional, safe, independent (ie, not requiring an average of 1.5 minders monitoring it from afar) self-driving vehicle is still not anything close to being achieved.
Speaking of which: How many years now has Elon been promising the "full self driving" is just a few months down the road?
Yet, still not here. And in fact the recent Tesla "self-driving" recall yanked back most of the "progress" that had been made on the system. Because the progress wasn't progress at all but simply a series of PR moves that put Tesla drivers - and the public at large - at risk.
Remember all of Musk's claims that self-driving was many times safer than human drivers?
Real-world data from Nov 2022-Nov 2023 shows that Tesla actually had the highest collision rate of any automobile brand. Just by way of comparison, Tesla had 23.5 collisions per 1000 drivers while brands while brands like Pontiac, Mercury, and Saturn were more like 8 or 9.
A lot of things go into the reasons one brand has more collisions and crashes than another - including what kind of driver the brand attracts, what kind of driving the vehicle encourages, and so on.
If Musk's claims - dating back many years - about the safety net created by Tesla's technology were actually anything close to true, their fleet collision record would be something like 3 or 5 or 7 per thousand - ie, better than any other brand on the road - not worse.
Where ego, technology, human behavior, and attention to safety (or, more precisely, the complete lack of it) collide is where we are standing now.
posted by flug at 10:24 PM on December 26, 2023 [53 favorites]
That whole first Defector article by Albert Burneko is just choice. Chef's kiss, thank you!
posted by riverlife at 10:28 PM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 10:28 PM on December 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tesla doesn't manufacture these parts. Cast aluminum control arms have been used for years by other manufacturers, with seemingly no major problems. Why are Tesla and its suppliers having issues over so many years? Early Model S Teslas were more or less kit cars, because suppliers would not talk to them, but that time is long over.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:50 PM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:50 PM on December 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
The creation of safe, dependable automobiles is something that will never be guaranteed while Elon Musk is in charge of Tesla because the discretion and discernment necessary to produce safe, dependable automobiles can't be found inside Elon Musk's rectum, which is the only lens Elon Musk ever uses to interface with the world.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:54 PM on December 26, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:54 PM on December 26, 2023 [26 favorites]
Tesla doesn't manufacture these parts. Why are Tesla and its suppliers having issues over so many years?
I haven't read everything, but just picking out one comment in the article and sharing some background -
"One driver said in an interview that his brand-new 2023 Model Y jerked to the right when the power-steering suddenly failed at speed, nearly putting the vehicle into a ditch."
We build vehicles with something called "Fail-Operational" power-steering units - your car actually has two independent power steering systems, operating continuously, and if one fails the other takes over instantly and you won't notice anything has changed except a warning light appearing on your cluster telling you the power steering unit is damaged and to immediately get your vehicle serviced.
I know for a fact that lower cost competitors from developing countries like China often don't want to incur the cost of fully redundant systems, and they build "Fail-Safe" power-steering units, where in the event of a power steering failure, the vehicle will still be controllable but in a degraded manner - the motor assist has failed and you will need significantly more steering effort to turn the wheel. It could cause the wheel to jerk if the motor had been exerting significant force to maintain the current steering direction at the point it failed.
There have been a lot of debates, for decades, around redundancy and safety. It's not always clear that having more redundancy leads to more safety, you would have to take an evidence based approach and do an A/B study because there are some counterintuitive and paradoxical effects. Eg you're trying to miniaturize the power steering systems to fit two of them into the space of one and that makes them vulnerable to certain types of failures compared to building a single robust steering system that is less likely to fail in general.
There's also the tricky question of safety vs cost. The IIHS or NCAP tests, sure, you may get the highest possible score. But vehicle safety is so much more than that, say for example this Fail-Operational power steering system. How do you quantify the value of safety? Where do you stop?
Collectively, we've settled on government mandate based on value of life. If a safety system costs $100 per vehicle, based on 10 million vehicles sold, it would cost society $1 billion per year.
NHTSA assumes the value of human life is $10 million. So if this $100 technology could save 100 lives per year, this would be a clear benefit to society so they will mandate this safety system be installed on all vehicles. Obviously, society wouldn't benefit if we spent $1 billion in taxpayer money just to save 1 life, much as it is unfortunate for them.
This entirely reasonable government mandated process was, interestingly, popularized in the movie Fight Club where its meaning was deliberately twisted to portray automakers comparing the cost of paying off lawsuits versus cost of making safety upgrades to their vehicles. Ford Pinto memo on Wikipedia.
posted by xdvesper at 11:36 PM on December 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
I haven't read everything, but just picking out one comment in the article and sharing some background -
"One driver said in an interview that his brand-new 2023 Model Y jerked to the right when the power-steering suddenly failed at speed, nearly putting the vehicle into a ditch."
We build vehicles with something called "Fail-Operational" power-steering units - your car actually has two independent power steering systems, operating continuously, and if one fails the other takes over instantly and you won't notice anything has changed except a warning light appearing on your cluster telling you the power steering unit is damaged and to immediately get your vehicle serviced.
I know for a fact that lower cost competitors from developing countries like China often don't want to incur the cost of fully redundant systems, and they build "Fail-Safe" power-steering units, where in the event of a power steering failure, the vehicle will still be controllable but in a degraded manner - the motor assist has failed and you will need significantly more steering effort to turn the wheel. It could cause the wheel to jerk if the motor had been exerting significant force to maintain the current steering direction at the point it failed.
There have been a lot of debates, for decades, around redundancy and safety. It's not always clear that having more redundancy leads to more safety, you would have to take an evidence based approach and do an A/B study because there are some counterintuitive and paradoxical effects. Eg you're trying to miniaturize the power steering systems to fit two of them into the space of one and that makes them vulnerable to certain types of failures compared to building a single robust steering system that is less likely to fail in general.
There's also the tricky question of safety vs cost. The IIHS or NCAP tests, sure, you may get the highest possible score. But vehicle safety is so much more than that, say for example this Fail-Operational power steering system. How do you quantify the value of safety? Where do you stop?
Collectively, we've settled on government mandate based on value of life. If a safety system costs $100 per vehicle, based on 10 million vehicles sold, it would cost society $1 billion per year.
NHTSA assumes the value of human life is $10 million. So if this $100 technology could save 100 lives per year, this would be a clear benefit to society so they will mandate this safety system be installed on all vehicles. Obviously, society wouldn't benefit if we spent $1 billion in taxpayer money just to save 1 life, much as it is unfortunate for them.
This entirely reasonable government mandated process was, interestingly, popularized in the movie Fight Club where its meaning was deliberately twisted to portray automakers comparing the cost of paying off lawsuits versus cost of making safety upgrades to their vehicles. Ford Pinto memo on Wikipedia.
posted by xdvesper at 11:36 PM on December 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
Also to tie into the Pinto, tesla car fires have killed over 75 people (so far) vs the Ford Pinto's death toll of 27. So in total numbers and in per/car Tesla's have burnt to death more people now.
posted by Iax at 11:43 PM on December 26, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by Iax at 11:43 PM on December 26, 2023 [35 favorites]
Collectively, we've settled on government mandate based on value of life. If a safety system costs $100 per vehicle, based on 10 million vehicles sold, it would cost society $1 billion per year.
NHTSA assumes the value of human life is $10 million. So if this $100 technology could save 100 lives per year, this would be a clear benefit to society so they will mandate this safety system be installed on all vehicles. Obviously, society wouldn't benefit if we spent $1 billion in taxpayer money just to save 1 life, much as it is unfortunate for them.
I gotta say it seems like the $1 billion is being paid by auto manufacturers, reducing the wealth their owners are extracting from their employees' labor, rather than it "cost[ing] society". The 100 lives a year you mention, on the other hand, is being paid by random members of society who did not agree to die so that rich people could make more money than they already were going to. I don't think this conflation of both under the heading of "costs to society" is particularly useful to anybody who doesn't own large amounts of stock in an auto manufacturer.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:51 PM on December 26, 2023 [32 favorites]
NHTSA assumes the value of human life is $10 million. So if this $100 technology could save 100 lives per year, this would be a clear benefit to society so they will mandate this safety system be installed on all vehicles. Obviously, society wouldn't benefit if we spent $1 billion in taxpayer money just to save 1 life, much as it is unfortunate for them.
I gotta say it seems like the $1 billion is being paid by auto manufacturers, reducing the wealth their owners are extracting from their employees' labor, rather than it "cost[ing] society". The 100 lives a year you mention, on the other hand, is being paid by random members of society who did not agree to die so that rich people could make more money than they already were going to. I don't think this conflation of both under the heading of "costs to society" is particularly useful to anybody who doesn't own large amounts of stock in an auto manufacturer.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:51 PM on December 26, 2023 [32 favorites]
Pope Guilty - that is actually a very interesting question - who bears the cost of safety systems? Well, the topic is interesting to economists, anyway, and policymakers.
This topic is called tax incidence in economics and it asks this very question - when a "tax" (price increase) is imposed on a good, who bears the cost of it, the producer or consumer?
The answer is that it depends on the alternatives available. If we put a 50% tax on Red Delicious apples, but didn't tax Gala apples, then the majority of customers will shift to buying Gala apples. This would force Red Delicious producers to lower their price in order to compete, so the price of Red Delicious + tax would be on par with the Gala apples. This means the 50% tax comes out of corporate profits from Red Delicious producers, not from consumer pockets.
If we put a 50% tax on all edible food - then there are literally no alternatives for the customer. In that case, food producers don't have to change their prices, they would just let the prices for all food go up 50% due to the tax. In this case, the 50% tax comes out of consumer pockets, and producer profits are unaffected.
In the case of car safety systems - due to this being a nationwide government mandate - every single car sold must legally include this $100 cost. There are no alternatives. This means that almost the entire cost is paid by the consumer, not the producer.
In reality, there are some alternatives to cars. People could buy a bicycle or take public transport instead. We can see this happen with increasingly stringent emissions controls - the government mandates an emission standard that requires $1000 per vehicle in cost to achieve, but manufacturers can't recover all $1000 from the consumer because there are other alternatives, like BEVs, HEVs, or public transport.
posted by xdvesper at 12:13 AM on December 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
This topic is called tax incidence in economics and it asks this very question - when a "tax" (price increase) is imposed on a good, who bears the cost of it, the producer or consumer?
The answer is that it depends on the alternatives available. If we put a 50% tax on Red Delicious apples, but didn't tax Gala apples, then the majority of customers will shift to buying Gala apples. This would force Red Delicious producers to lower their price in order to compete, so the price of Red Delicious + tax would be on par with the Gala apples. This means the 50% tax comes out of corporate profits from Red Delicious producers, not from consumer pockets.
If we put a 50% tax on all edible food - then there are literally no alternatives for the customer. In that case, food producers don't have to change their prices, they would just let the prices for all food go up 50% due to the tax. In this case, the 50% tax comes out of consumer pockets, and producer profits are unaffected.
In the case of car safety systems - due to this being a nationwide government mandate - every single car sold must legally include this $100 cost. There are no alternatives. This means that almost the entire cost is paid by the consumer, not the producer.
In reality, there are some alternatives to cars. People could buy a bicycle or take public transport instead. We can see this happen with increasingly stringent emissions controls - the government mandates an emission standard that requires $1000 per vehicle in cost to achieve, but manufacturers can't recover all $1000 from the consumer because there are other alternatives, like BEVs, HEVs, or public transport.
posted by xdvesper at 12:13 AM on December 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
This doesn't seem to be biased hit-piece at all LOL.
My eyes jerked sharply up when I read this.
posted by JHarris at 12:15 AM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
My eyes jerked sharply up when I read this.
posted by JHarris at 12:15 AM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
Real-world data from Nov 2022-Nov 2023 shows that Tesla actually had the highest collision rate of any automobile brand. Just by way of comparison, Tesla had 23.5 collisions per 1000 drivers while brands while brands like Pontiac, Mercury, and Saturn were more like 8 or 9.I mean, this is just obviously garbage data - Pontiac, Mercury, and Saturn no longer even exist, and haven’t for over a decade.
posted by kickingtheground at 12:35 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, this is just obviously garbage data - Pontiac, Mercury, and Saturn no longer even exist, and haven’t for over a decade.
While the brands as a concern may be dead, the vehicles built under their name still do exist on the roads. In addition, as these vehicles age, they slowly move to differing cohorts (like younger drivers getting their first car) that, for a number of reasons, are more likely to be involved in auto accidents. The fact that Tesla's collision rate is higher than even these dead brands is actually more worrying, not less.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:59 AM on December 27, 2023 [103 favorites]
While the brands as a concern may be dead, the vehicles built under their name still do exist on the roads. In addition, as these vehicles age, they slowly move to differing cohorts (like younger drivers getting their first car) that, for a number of reasons, are more likely to be involved in auto accidents. The fact that Tesla's collision rate is higher than even these dead brands is actually more worrying, not less.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:59 AM on December 27, 2023 [103 favorites]
And, slow and steadily, like peeling a very large, over ripe fruit, the Genus King covering is disappearing to reveal the Chud King within.
Fascinating stuff.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 1:11 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Fascinating stuff.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 1:11 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
So a Tesla is more likely to get in a collision than a decades old car without any advanced assisted driving features? Yikes.
posted by UN at 1:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by UN at 1:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Tesla is in for some more bad news:
Berlin hackers crack Tesla's autopilot with voltage glitch attack:
Exact details will be released in the keynote today of the Chaos Communication Congress, 13:50 (CET):
https://events.ccc.de/congress/2023/hub/en/event/back_in_the_driver_s_seat_recovering_critical_data_from_tesla_autopilot_using_voltage_glitching/
Livestream available: https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/granville
A pre note was released here:
https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/berliner-hacker-knacken-teslas-autopilot-chaos-computer-club-li.2171650
posted by DreamerFi at 2:11 AM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
Berlin hackers crack Tesla's autopilot with voltage glitch attack:
Exact details will be released in the keynote today of the Chaos Communication Congress, 13:50 (CET):
https://events.ccc.de/congress/2023/hub/en/event/back_in_the_driver_s_seat_recovering_critical_data_from_tesla_autopilot_using_voltage_glitching/
Livestream available: https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/granville
A pre note was released here:
https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/berliner-hacker-knacken-teslas-autopilot-chaos-computer-club-li.2171650
posted by DreamerFi at 2:11 AM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
You're helping to work out the bugs, mapping new territory.
If I'm not getting paid, I don't find this so interesting. In Berlin there is a short-term car-renting App that lets you rent cars for like five or ten minutes or whatever. Very convenient and at the beginning all the cars were VW electric, not the latest, they looked like regular "golf," then they had these new models with maddening controls and a media/temperature/navigation system that was almost unusable. And I always felt I was beta-testing their cars. Probably was - but the convenience is huge (and the cost roughly the same as mass transit) so I don't mind. The idea of shelling out 40 grand to have all my usage data harvested and analysed and... it's like a perversion (or further evolution) of branded clothing, draining every last sou they can from the 'customer.'
It's too bad they didn't just decide to make a good car, seems like it would have been easier.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
If I'm not getting paid, I don't find this so interesting. In Berlin there is a short-term car-renting App that lets you rent cars for like five or ten minutes or whatever. Very convenient and at the beginning all the cars were VW electric, not the latest, they looked like regular "golf," then they had these new models with maddening controls and a media/temperature/navigation system that was almost unusable. And I always felt I was beta-testing their cars. Probably was - but the convenience is huge (and the cost roughly the same as mass transit) so I don't mind. The idea of shelling out 40 grand to have all my usage data harvested and analysed and... it's like a perversion (or further evolution) of branded clothing, draining every last sou they can from the 'customer.'
It's too bad they didn't just decide to make a good car, seems like it would have been easier.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
And, slow and steadily, like peeling a very large, over ripe fruit, the Genus King covering is disappearing to reveal the Chud King within.
thinnest skin evar
posted by chavenet at 3:16 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
thinnest skin evar
posted by chavenet at 3:16 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
And Musk says the future of Tesla will be their humanoid robots...
posted by dowcrag at 3:33 AM on December 27, 2023
posted by dowcrag at 3:33 AM on December 27, 2023
And Musk says the future of Tesla will be their humanoid robots...
These? [CW: Daily Fail]
posted by chavenet at 4:04 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
These? [CW: Daily Fail]
posted by chavenet at 4:04 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
there is this weird feeling in this thread like we are not only being watched but being herded by like three different shepherds.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 4:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 4:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Whenever I drive and encounter a Tesla, I stay as far away from it as possible.
posted by rhymedirective at 4:30 AM on December 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 4:30 AM on December 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
A pre note was released here: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/
I see Berliner Zeitung linked here and other places on the internet more and more often. The paper is owned by a Putin sympathizer and re-publishes russian state propaganda regularly. AFAIK there isn't a general awareness of this but the paper should be treated the same as Russia Today.
It's strange that the paper has gained so much presence online lately, considering it's essentially a regional paper without a huge readership in Germany. Since RT was banned in many countries presumably this is an outlet they use now. They are good at flooding the net with keywords, ie they cover up the owner's attendance at a party at the Russian embassy by publishing dozens of useless articles unrelated to the scandal to keep the critical articles off the front page of search results. Not exactly journalism.
Sorry, a bit off topic..
posted by UN at 5:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [29 favorites]
I see Berliner Zeitung linked here and other places on the internet more and more often. The paper is owned by a Putin sympathizer and re-publishes russian state propaganda regularly. AFAIK there isn't a general awareness of this but the paper should be treated the same as Russia Today.
It's strange that the paper has gained so much presence online lately, considering it's essentially a regional paper without a huge readership in Germany. Since RT was banned in many countries presumably this is an outlet they use now. They are good at flooding the net with keywords, ie they cover up the owner's attendance at a party at the Russian embassy by publishing dozens of useless articles unrelated to the scandal to keep the critical articles off the front page of search results. Not exactly journalism.
Sorry, a bit off topic..
posted by UN at 5:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [29 favorites]
The real product is that they’re not the only game in town for EVs now. Almost all of the auto manufacturers are moving into the EV space and some of them are going really big.
FTFY
In the end - that will be EM's lasting legacy, dragging the stodgy American car market to EVs after nothing else could. Whether it was worth it .... remains to be calculated.
posted by Dashy at 5:06 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
FTFY
In the end - that will be EM's lasting legacy, dragging the stodgy American car market to EVs after nothing else could. Whether it was worth it .... remains to be calculated.
posted by Dashy at 5:06 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Tesla doesn't manufacture these parts. Cast aluminum control arms have been used for years by other manufacturers, with seemingly no major problems. Why are Tesla and its suppliers having issues over so many years?
Tesla designs the parts, though, and that’s where the path to failure begins. Tesla’s engineers might be designing the parts with an eye toward lower weight and/or lower per-unit cost, which would possibly (likely?) result in more failure-prone parts, but at an acceptable (to management) rate.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:12 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tesla designs the parts, though, and that’s where the path to failure begins. Tesla’s engineers might be designing the parts with an eye toward lower weight and/or lower per-unit cost, which would possibly (likely?) result in more failure-prone parts, but at an acceptable (to management) rate.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:12 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Consumer Reports owner data suggests the build quality is significantly below average. Despite that it has fairly high satisfaction ratings, possibly due to the advantages of EVs in general.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm not sufficiently educated in automotive technology to form informed opinions on Tesla vehicles, but I am sufficiently educated in human psychology to form informed opinions on the people who want to purchase and drive Tesla vehicles, and hoo boy.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:34 AM on December 27, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:34 AM on December 27, 2023 [32 favorites]
the real scam is convincing people theyre actually helping the environment by purchasing luxury goods
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [50 favorites]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [50 favorites]
NoxAeternum: While the brands as a concern may be dead, the vehicles built under their name still do exist on the roads. In addition, as these vehicles age, they slowly move to differing cohorts (like younger drivers getting their first car) that, for a number of reasons, are more likely to be involved in auto accidents. The fact that Tesla's collision rate is higher than even these dead brands is actually more worrying, not less.
That still doesn’t make sense, considering how few Pontiacs/Mercurys/Saturns there are on the road between natural attrition and the further culling of these cars from the Cash4Clunkers era. Given the higher number of Teslas on the road coupled with the aggressively misleading marketing of the “intelligent” features of the car, I’m not surprised that Tesla has higher crashes than these dead brands.
Lendingtree should have gone for the gusto and crowned the Stutz Bearcat as the car with no crashes and build issues.
posted by dr_dank at 5:45 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
That still doesn’t make sense, considering how few Pontiacs/Mercurys/Saturns there are on the road between natural attrition and the further culling of these cars from the Cash4Clunkers era. Given the higher number of Teslas on the road coupled with the aggressively misleading marketing of the “intelligent” features of the car, I’m not surprised that Tesla has higher crashes than these dead brands.
Lendingtree should have gone for the gusto and crowned the Stutz Bearcat as the car with no crashes and build issues.
posted by dr_dank at 5:45 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m not quite sure how anyone would trust a team lead by Musk with their chuldren’s lives…
posted by blue_beetle at 5:47 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 5:47 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Electric cars aren't manufactured to save the Earth:
they're produced to save the automobile industry.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 5:54 AM on December 27, 2023 [46 favorites]
they're produced to save the automobile industry.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 5:54 AM on December 27, 2023 [46 favorites]
That still doesn’t make sense, considering how few Pontiacs/Mercurys/Saturns there are on the road between natural attrition and the further culling of these cars from the Cash4Clunkers era.
What's the collision rate of zombie brands compared to current makes? Maybe assuming that those rates are monotonically converging to zero as their population goes to zero isn't valid. For me it seems reasonable to assume that the collision rate of a particular car model might briefly spike as most of them wear out and they're primarily driven by teenagers.
Depending on how the data is organized, comparing Teslas to Pontiacs might be an easy way of comparing Teslas to cars that that are at least 14 years old....in which case, the fact that Teslas have a higher collision rate is kind of bad, especially because those cars don't have any driver assist technology and are mostly junkers.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
What's the collision rate of zombie brands compared to current makes? Maybe assuming that those rates are monotonically converging to zero as their population goes to zero isn't valid. For me it seems reasonable to assume that the collision rate of a particular car model might briefly spike as most of them wear out and they're primarily driven by teenagers.
Depending on how the data is organized, comparing Teslas to Pontiacs might be an easy way of comparing Teslas to cars that that are at least 14 years old....in which case, the fact that Teslas have a higher collision rate is kind of bad, especially because those cars don't have any driver assist technology and are mostly junkers.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
That still doesn’t make sense, considering how few Pontiacs/Mercurys/Saturns there are on the road between natural attrition and the further culling of these cars from the Cash4Clunkers era. Given the higher number of Teslas on the road coupled with the aggressively misleading marketing of the “intelligent” features of the car, I’m not surprised that Tesla has higher crashes than these dead brands.
The thing to remember is that we're not talking total crashes here, but rate of occurance among the brand population. Which is the point of the comparison - you have dead brands where the vehicles are more likely to be be in accidents because used cars tend to be driven by people who are less careful about their vehicles - and Tesla's rate of occurance is triple theirs.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:10 AM on December 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
The thing to remember is that we're not talking total crashes here, but rate of occurance among the brand population. Which is the point of the comparison - you have dead brands where the vehicles are more likely to be be in accidents because used cars tend to be driven by people who are less careful about their vehicles - and Tesla's rate of occurance is triple theirs.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:10 AM on December 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
I mean, this is just obviously garbage data - Pontiac, Mercury, and Saturn no longer even exist, and haven’t for over a decade.
Obviously this is just a sample, and that article doesn't report Ns so it's a little hard to assess data quality - I'd be mostly concerned about whether there are reliable counts the more you slice the data - eg, by state AND manufacturer, getting enough counts of crashes for reliable cross-analysis (assuming we are only looking at data from one insurer...).
BUT an insurance company is using these data to make decisions. A lot of money is riding on these data. That alone makes me assume they are reasonably sound, even with other questions about whether the data are complete or representative.
posted by entropone at 6:22 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's not always clear that having more redundancy leads to more safety, you would have to take an evidence based approach and do an A/B study because there are some counterintuitive and paradoxical effects
Despite the additional cost, commercial and military aircraft typically have at least triple redundancy for critical mechanical parts required for the safe operation of the craft. Aviation safety engineering and regulations are as evidence-based as they get, for obvious reasons. I'd be curious to know what these counterintuitive or paradoxical effects are, esp. in this domain.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:22 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Despite the additional cost, commercial and military aircraft typically have at least triple redundancy for critical mechanical parts required for the safe operation of the craft. Aviation safety engineering and regulations are as evidence-based as they get, for obvious reasons. I'd be curious to know what these counterintuitive or paradoxical effects are, esp. in this domain.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:22 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
...because used cars tend to be driven by people who are less careful about their vehicles...
That’s a pretty specious, and dare I say classist, argument there.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:28 AM on December 27, 2023 [43 favorites]
That’s a pretty specious, and dare I say classist, argument there.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:28 AM on December 27, 2023 [43 favorites]
Having put close to 70,000 miles on a Model 3, I suspect that the main cause of the crashes is also the main selling point: These vehicles are stupid fast. As in supercar responsive and fast. You tap the accelerator and you are doing 30 before you even get halfway across the intersection.
I can't think of any other vehicle on a Ford / VW / BMW lot that is as quick to take you from 0 to oh shit. Yeah, the gas powered vehicles may have a higher top speed, but that acceleration will take you by surprise if you are not careful. I have yet to let my daughter drive it. She sticks to the 24 year old Jeep Cherokee that is way more forgiving in the acceleration category.
You may see a similar trend with the other makers if you were to disaggregate their pure EV's from the rest of the models, but I suspect that other brands nerf their EV's so as not to compete with the higher end sports cars on the lot.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
I can't think of any other vehicle on a Ford / VW / BMW lot that is as quick to take you from 0 to oh shit. Yeah, the gas powered vehicles may have a higher top speed, but that acceleration will take you by surprise if you are not careful. I have yet to let my daughter drive it. She sticks to the 24 year old Jeep Cherokee that is way more forgiving in the acceleration category.
You may see a similar trend with the other makers if you were to disaggregate their pure EV's from the rest of the models, but I suspect that other brands nerf their EV's so as not to compete with the higher end sports cars on the lot.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
...because used cars tend to be driven by people who are less careful about their vehicles...
When they are driven by 18 year olds, probably yes. But when they are driven by a person who relies on that car to get their kids to school and themselves to work? I'm not sure about that.
Having put close to 70,000 miles on a Model 3, I suspect that the main cause of the crashes is also the main selling point: These vehicles are stupid fast. As in supercar responsive and fast. You tap the accelerator and you are doing 30 before you even get halfway across the intersection.
I was wondering about this. Mostly I see Teslas being driven very conservatively, just like other family sedans. But every so often, I see people leaning into that crazy EV acceleration and doing dumb things on the highway. That subset of Tesla drivers must be well overrepresented in the accident data.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
When they are driven by 18 year olds, probably yes. But when they are driven by a person who relies on that car to get their kids to school and themselves to work? I'm not sure about that.
Having put close to 70,000 miles on a Model 3, I suspect that the main cause of the crashes is also the main selling point: These vehicles are stupid fast. As in supercar responsive and fast. You tap the accelerator and you are doing 30 before you even get halfway across the intersection.
I was wondering about this. Mostly I see Teslas being driven very conservatively, just like other family sedans. But every so often, I see people leaning into that crazy EV acceleration and doing dumb things on the highway. That subset of Tesla drivers must be well overrepresented in the accident data.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I drove one a couple of years ago, before the pandemic. I think it was the biggest one at the time, the Model X. It accelerated like a bumper car at the fair, which is to say really fast and (under my foot) completely out of control. I did about a kilometer and then handed off to a professional driver who proceeded to take it up to 200 kph for a couple of clicks and man, that was too fast. Main observation: 10 minutes of racing around at way over the speed limit and the battery went below 50%.
posted by chavenet at 6:42 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 6:42 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here's the Lending Tree study. It notes that Telsa is second only to Ram (also a high acceleration vehicle), and BMW drivers are the most likely to be DUI.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:46 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:46 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yeah, even the low-end RWD Model 3 I got yesterday from Hertz has insane power off the line.
Speaking to a good point above, Elon's 'go f--- yourself' to the dealership model is going to present increasing scaling challenges as the installed base of 4-8 year old Model 3 & Ys start to skyrocket next year while the company is also planning on ramping up Texas production.
Regarding the LendingTree study, perhaps Pontiac drivers don't do many highway miles; Tesla's fleet average is 10,000 miles/year apparently.
posted by torokunai at 6:47 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Speaking to a good point above, Elon's 'go f--- yourself' to the dealership model is going to present increasing scaling challenges as the installed base of 4-8 year old Model 3 & Ys start to skyrocket next year while the company is also planning on ramping up Texas production.
“Front wheel fell off while driving on Autopilot at 60 mph,” referring to Tesla’s automated driving system. The wrecked car was sold, without the front wheel, in November 2021, auction records show.Surprised they didn't save that for their AP hit piece. Tesla's sold 2M cars now in the US so a 1% of 1% failure rate will be 200 anecdotes. Teslas have a less complicated powertrain but the rest of the car isn't made of fairy dust so I don't doubt there've been supplier and design issues to work out over the years.
Regarding the LendingTree study, perhaps Pontiac drivers don't do many highway miles; Tesla's fleet average is 10,000 miles/year apparently.
posted by torokunai at 6:47 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
but I suspect that other brands nerf their EV's so as not to compete with the higher end sports cars on the lot.
Okay, but what if allowing people to do stupid things while operating a 2-ton machine at highway speeds is itself a safety issue?
Everyone takes the same exam and gets about the same level of training in order to drive an automobile. Clearly there's some sort of an Overton-like window for how cars should operate in order to meet people's expectations and average level of driving proficiency, and if you produce a car that accelerates way too quickly or has a fucking yoke instead of a steering wheel, maybe that can be considered a design flaw?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Okay, but what if allowing people to do stupid things while operating a 2-ton machine at highway speeds is itself a safety issue?
Everyone takes the same exam and gets about the same level of training in order to drive an automobile. Clearly there's some sort of an Overton-like window for how cars should operate in order to meet people's expectations and average level of driving proficiency, and if you produce a car that accelerates way too quickly or has a fucking yoke instead of a steering wheel, maybe that can be considered a design flaw?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
The contortions Musk fans have been going through about this article are hilarious. I popped in to some of the Tesla subreddits to see their reaction. Almost no discussion of this post at all and lots of deleted threads. What discussion there is is dominated by a moderator with a ten paragraph screed about how obviously this article is a Conspiracy To Get Him.
You'd think folks who like their Teslas would be interested in this reporting. Motivated to press their car's manufacturer to produce better quality and not lie to them about problems.
I recently got my first EV and didn't want a Tesla. I'm pretty happy with the Volvo I ended up with. The company is committed to electric cars and has a successful partnership with Geely, a Chinese manufacturer. China is the clear leader in EV manufacture world-wide, Tesla's the only Western company that can come close to their innovation and output. I'd love to see more Chinese platforms and whole cars come to the US but given our ongoing trade war that's unlikely.
posted by Nelson at 6:54 AM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
You'd think folks who like their Teslas would be interested in this reporting. Motivated to press their car's manufacturer to produce better quality and not lie to them about problems.
I recently got my first EV and didn't want a Tesla. I'm pretty happy with the Volvo I ended up with. The company is committed to electric cars and has a successful partnership with Geely, a Chinese manufacturer. China is the clear leader in EV manufacture world-wide, Tesla's the only Western company that can come close to their innovation and output. I'd love to see more Chinese platforms and whole cars come to the US but given our ongoing trade war that's unlikely.
posted by Nelson at 6:54 AM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15131963/japan-dumps-276-hp-pact-car-news/
The yoke is Elon-quality design, right up there with the Solar Tile idea.
LendingTree follow-up:
https://brandonpaddock.substack.com/p/no-tesla-subaru-and-ram-drivers-dont
posted by torokunai at 7:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The yoke is Elon-quality design, right up there with the Solar Tile idea.
LendingTree follow-up:
"Ultimately, the people looking for auto insurance for a Tesla using QuoteWizard from Nov. 14, 2022, to Nov. 14, 2023, had the highest percentage of accident incidents. We made no claims about the safety of Teslas and/or the safety features of any other brand mentioned. "from:
https://brandonpaddock.substack.com/p/no-tesla-subaru-and-ram-drivers-dont
posted by torokunai at 7:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
We build vehicles with something called "Fail-Operational" power-steering units - your car actually has two independent power steering systems, operating continuously, and if one fails the other takes over instantly and you won't notice anything has changed except a warning light appearing on your cluster telling you the power steering unit is damaged and to immediately get your vehicle serviced.
This must be somewhat recent, in the cars I own if the power steering pump fails then you're muscling the wheel and parking can be (literally) a pain.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:13 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
This must be somewhat recent, in the cars I own if the power steering pump fails then you're muscling the wheel and parking can be (literally) a pain.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:13 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
possibly related: Elon Musk Announces He’s Recruiting Volunteers For Dangerous One-Way Mission In Self-Driving Cybertruck
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:17 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:17 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Our model 3 screen just decided to go blank a few days ago as we were leaving the garage. We had to reboot the car (?!) And of course all of the controls and info displays depend on that screen.
Now screen is back but the backup camera has gone blank. Good thing there's no visibility out the back because of the high butt!
Not only can Tesla not manage hardware, they can't manage the software. Probably some OTA update was meant to fix other bugs but wound up creating these.
posted by etherist at 7:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Now screen is back but the backup camera has gone blank. Good thing there's no visibility out the back because of the high butt!
Not only can Tesla not manage hardware, they can't manage the software. Probably some OTA update was meant to fix other bugs but wound up creating these.
posted by etherist at 7:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
...because used cars tend to be driven by people who are less careful about their vehicles...
That’s a pretty specious, and dare I say classist, argument there.
Not only that, but it doesn't align with the data (AFAICT tell from the article). Maybe TESLA is 3x those older brands, but those older brands are also outliers in terms of their LOW accident rates. Ie, if you look at the lion's share of the current market, it lives mostly in the range of 15-25 accidents / 100k miles.
Or, the 'young dumb' argument about Pontiac drivers doesn't fit at all. In fact they're driving much safer than the median.
[...but TESLA is still higher, albeit not significantly, than the herd in terms of accident rates]
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:47 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s a pretty specious, and dare I say classist, argument there.
Not only that, but it doesn't align with the data (AFAICT tell from the article). Maybe TESLA is 3x those older brands, but those older brands are also outliers in terms of their LOW accident rates. Ie, if you look at the lion's share of the current market, it lives mostly in the range of 15-25 accidents / 100k miles.
Or, the 'young dumb' argument about Pontiac drivers doesn't fit at all. In fact they're driving much safer than the median.
[...but TESLA is still higher, albeit not significantly, than the herd in terms of accident rates]
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:47 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Alright, after reading that piece on the "analysis", where it's based on bad review of quote requests - yeah, that is bullshit, and Lending Tree should never have put it out. That said, it's an aside from the real scandal here, documented in official Tesla internal documents obtained by Reuters:
* That Tesla has an extremely high rate of failure on key components of their vehicles,
* Their internal analysis showed that these failures were due to engineering and manufacturing failures,
* However, because of scrutiny the company was receiving from the markets, an intentional decision was made to pin blame (and repair costs) on owners,
*...except in China, where regulators were less willing to turn a blind eye, in a move similar to what happened with the 737 MAX.
Speaking to a good point above, Elon's 'go f--- yourself' to the dealership model is going to present increasing scaling challenges as the installed base of 4-8 year old Model 3 & Ys start to skyrocket next year while the company is also planning on ramping up Texas production.
Tesla has had to contract with dealerships to provide repair service as their (woefully inadequate) repair center network has been swamped. In addition, struggles with repair times and costs have caused rental car firms like Sixt and Hertz to re-evaluate their Tesla vehicle holdings - Sixt has announced they're liquidating theirs, while Hertz is rolling their exposure back, as their original plan of renting them to online livery drivers wound up not working out.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:49 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
* That Tesla has an extremely high rate of failure on key components of their vehicles,
* Their internal analysis showed that these failures were due to engineering and manufacturing failures,
* However, because of scrutiny the company was receiving from the markets, an intentional decision was made to pin blame (and repair costs) on owners,
*...except in China, where regulators were less willing to turn a blind eye, in a move similar to what happened with the 737 MAX.
Speaking to a good point above, Elon's 'go f--- yourself' to the dealership model is going to present increasing scaling challenges as the installed base of 4-8 year old Model 3 & Ys start to skyrocket next year while the company is also planning on ramping up Texas production.
Tesla has had to contract with dealerships to provide repair service as their (woefully inadequate) repair center network has been swamped. In addition, struggles with repair times and costs have caused rental car firms like Sixt and Hertz to re-evaluate their Tesla vehicle holdings - Sixt has announced they're liquidating theirs, while Hertz is rolling their exposure back, as their original plan of renting them to online livery drivers wound up not working out.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:49 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
As the owner of an older S, and Ms. Windo's 3, haven't noticed.
Did have a shock/strut failure recently, which was pretty bad, and my windshield wiper seems to be destroying my hood, but other than that...
Try getting service, ugh. All through their app, no one you can actually call and talk to. Terrible.
But agree with comments upthread. They are no longer the only game in town. Their charging network tho...
posted by Windopaene at 7:57 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Did have a shock/strut failure recently, which was pretty bad, and my windshield wiper seems to be destroying my hood, but other than that...
Try getting service, ugh. All through their app, no one you can actually call and talk to. Terrible.
But agree with comments upthread. They are no longer the only game in town. Their charging network tho...
posted by Windopaene at 7:57 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interesting, as in 2014 Tesla was getting top Consumer Reports rankings. Not the case today if you look at the same source.
Quality seems to have dropped precipitously after moving away from the single California silicon valley plant. Note that this was one due to growing the business, but also as I recall Elon didn’t want to pay California union salaries. This shows a bit of software engineering thinking, where you first make a viable product, but then face the second challenge of scaling it up to a global audience. Seems not to have worked in the “bricks and sticks” world.
Full disclosure, I owned one for years, but got rid of it after the Twitter takeover and Trump pandering. Drove great, no issues luckily. But then again there was no fucking way I was turning on any software controls of a moving vehicle. I know too many software engineers.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
Quality seems to have dropped precipitously after moving away from the single California silicon valley plant. Note that this was one due to growing the business, but also as I recall Elon didn’t want to pay California union salaries. This shows a bit of software engineering thinking, where you first make a viable product, but then face the second challenge of scaling it up to a global audience. Seems not to have worked in the “bricks and sticks” world.
Full disclosure, I owned one for years, but got rid of it after the Twitter takeover and Trump pandering. Drove great, no issues luckily. But then again there was no fucking way I was turning on any software controls of a moving vehicle. I know too many software engineers.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
Also, the Reuters piece notes that Tesla managed to get a lawsuit over this issue dismissed without prejudice because the judge ruled that the plaintiffs did not show that Tesla should have reasonably known about the defects. I imagine that lawsuit is going to be refiled - this time with the internal Tesla documents showing they damn well knew.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
The impression I've gotten, although I don't have any evidence to back it up, is that all of the most competent engineers and designers have jumped ship, mostly because of Elon, and are now at Rivian, Lucid, and GM/Ford/Stellantis etc.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:11 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:11 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
in 2014 Tesla was getting top Consumer Reports rankings.
Thanks for that, Abehammerb Lincoln. I remembered reading some magazine giving the then-new Tesla its highest rating ever for a car, and specifically praising the quality of the build. But I couldn't remember if it was CR, Car & Driver, Popular Mechanics etc.
And I was wondering what changed (or if Tesla just didn't wine & dine as well), and if the magazine recanted / revised its ratings. So thanks, too, for reporting that the rankings have changed.
posted by martin q blank at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thanks for that, Abehammerb Lincoln. I remembered reading some magazine giving the then-new Tesla its highest rating ever for a car, and specifically praising the quality of the build. But I couldn't remember if it was CR, Car & Driver, Popular Mechanics etc.
And I was wondering what changed (or if Tesla just didn't wine & dine as well), and if the magazine recanted / revised its ratings. So thanks, too, for reporting that the rankings have changed.
posted by martin q blank at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
> This means that almost the entire cost is paid by the consumer, not the producer.
the above statement assumes that the determining factor for the price of a good sold to consumers is the cost of manufacturing that good. it is a statement that is wrong.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
the above statement assumes that the determining factor for the price of a good sold to consumers is the cost of manufacturing that good. it is a statement that is wrong.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can't really speak to safety (and yes autocorrect tried to change that to Sade which probably says a lot about me) but I've just noticed the sun damage on my boss's Tesla looks terrible. Like I've got scratches and all that on my 11 year old Hyundai but I'd still rather drive it than his Tesla.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
reading some magazine giving the then-new Tesla its highest rating ever for a car, and specifically praising the quality of the build. But I couldn't remember if it was CR, Car & Driver, Popular Mechanics etc.
It was Consumer Reports, and at the time it was big news
posted by Gorgik at 8:21 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was Consumer Reports, and at the time it was big news
posted by Gorgik at 8:21 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Their charging network tho...
I have a feeling that the industry formalization of NACS as the standard (SAE announced their formal NACS spec about a week or so ago, and Volkswagen - the last holdout - has finally announced their NACS switchover) is going to force some regulation onto Tesla over this. The big one we need now are "pay at the pump" regulations, because requiring an app to charge is ridiculous.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have a feeling that the industry formalization of NACS as the standard (SAE announced their formal NACS spec about a week or so ago, and Volkswagen - the last holdout - has finally announced their NACS switchover) is going to force some regulation onto Tesla over this. The big one we need now are "pay at the pump" regulations, because requiring an app to charge is ridiculous.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
I live in an area where easily a quarter of all the cars on the road are white Tesla Model 3s, and I myself have a model 3 and a model Y. The people who think all Tesla drivers are immature, irresponsible bros is really frustrating- at the time, these cars were some of the few electric options available and we wanted to make a more environmentally responsible choice.
The basic lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control work phenomenally well and are very, very insistent that you pay attention. They’ve definitely saved me from accidents at least a couple times when I was overtired or simply made a mistake. I don’t know any Tesla owners who use “full self driving” or even buy into the hype of it.
Anyway, while I’m sure the data reflects something real, it would be swell of the commenters here to stop painting literally millions of people with the “techbro douchebag” label.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 8:38 AM on December 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
The basic lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control work phenomenally well and are very, very insistent that you pay attention. They’ve definitely saved me from accidents at least a couple times when I was overtired or simply made a mistake. I don’t know any Tesla owners who use “full self driving” or even buy into the hype of it.
Anyway, while I’m sure the data reflects something real, it would be swell of the commenters here to stop painting literally millions of people with the “techbro douchebag” label.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 8:38 AM on December 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
>requiring an app to charge is ridiculous
IME with LEAFs for the past 10 years, the one thing I love the most about Teslas is just being able to plug & go with no ceremonies with card tapping, button-pushing, waiting for card authorization, etc etc. at the pump.
How the legacy makers figure this out will be interesting, but there's nothing wrong with Tesla's way of doing it.
posted by torokunai at 8:39 AM on December 27, 2023
IME with LEAFs for the past 10 years, the one thing I love the most about Teslas is just being able to plug & go with no ceremonies with card tapping, button-pushing, waiting for card authorization, etc etc. at the pump.
How the legacy makers figure this out will be interesting, but there's nothing wrong with Tesla's way of doing it.
posted by torokunai at 8:39 AM on December 27, 2023
The basic lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control work phenomenally well and are very, very insistent that you pay attention.
These aren’t unique (nor original) to Tesla. My three-year-old Subaru has similar, equally insistent, systems.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:45 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
These aren’t unique (nor original) to Tesla. My three-year-old Subaru has similar, equally insistent, systems.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:45 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Note that this was one due to growing the business, but also as I recall Elon didn’t want to pay California union salaries.
I suspect Elon also wants his racist company culture out from under California's Fair Employment and Housing Act.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
I suspect Elon also wants his racist company culture out from under California's Fair Employment and Housing Act.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Their charging network tho...
That's one thing Tesla has done really well in the US. Oddly, they've recently decided to open their chargers to non-Tesla owners. Their Magic Dock provides connector compatibility until the NACS standardization is complete. Tesla's supercharger network was a compelling reason to buy a Tesla, I'm surprised they've traded that away. I guess they think there's enough money to be made selling electricity instead? Maybe it's a genuine desire to boost all EVs in the US; Tesla's recent sharing of 48V plans for cars is another head scratcher.
I'm still mad about how Electrify America has screwed the pooch. It started as part of Volkswagen's settlement for years of cheating on emissions tests. But rather than seeing the required $2B investment as an opportunity they just did a terrible job of it. There's a very large Electrify America network but at any given time something like half the chargers don't work. Their maintenance on facilities is just awful. There's some signs they're starting to invest more, I hope so.
The other big US charging project is NEVI, the US government program with $7.5B (!) in funding. The rollout is going slowly but the first stations just started opening this month. Fingers crossed it ends up working out.
posted by Nelson at 8:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's one thing Tesla has done really well in the US. Oddly, they've recently decided to open their chargers to non-Tesla owners. Their Magic Dock provides connector compatibility until the NACS standardization is complete. Tesla's supercharger network was a compelling reason to buy a Tesla, I'm surprised they've traded that away. I guess they think there's enough money to be made selling electricity instead? Maybe it's a genuine desire to boost all EVs in the US; Tesla's recent sharing of 48V plans for cars is another head scratcher.
I'm still mad about how Electrify America has screwed the pooch. It started as part of Volkswagen's settlement for years of cheating on emissions tests. But rather than seeing the required $2B investment as an opportunity they just did a terrible job of it. There's a very large Electrify America network but at any given time something like half the chargers don't work. Their maintenance on facilities is just awful. There's some signs they're starting to invest more, I hope so.
The other big US charging project is NEVI, the US government program with $7.5B (!) in funding. The rollout is going slowly but the first stations just started opening this month. Fingers crossed it ends up working out.
posted by Nelson at 8:48 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
> This means that almost the entire cost is paid by the consumer, not the producer
upon further consideration!
oh my god this statement is even more wrong than i thought. have you noticed who’s left out of here? we have the consumers, who pay money for end products. we have the producer, who makes end products and sells them. we interpret every mandated piece of equipment in the sold end product as a “cost” to be borne by either the producer or the consumers.
but wait!
we have left out the people who actually build the car and the people who actually build the components of the mandated equipment. for them, the mandate is extra business, and extra profit.
grarrarragrgh do serious people, like, economists ‘n’ other people who actually make decisions about stuff, do those people indulge in reasoning like the reasoning in the quoted statement? or is it just folk reasoning that no one serious takes seriously? because if people who make decisions about things think statements like the above are not bad, then so oh boy we are screwed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:49 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
upon further consideration!
oh my god this statement is even more wrong than i thought. have you noticed who’s left out of here? we have the consumers, who pay money for end products. we have the producer, who makes end products and sells them. we interpret every mandated piece of equipment in the sold end product as a “cost” to be borne by either the producer or the consumers.
but wait!
we have left out the people who actually build the car and the people who actually build the components of the mandated equipment. for them, the mandate is extra business, and extra profit.
grarrarragrgh do serious people, like, economists ‘n’ other people who actually make decisions about stuff, do those people indulge in reasoning like the reasoning in the quoted statement? or is it just folk reasoning that no one serious takes seriously? because if people who make decisions about things think statements like the above are not bad, then so oh boy we are screwed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:49 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
If the population data shows that there are significantly higher build quality issues with a vehicle and your response is "hasn't happened to mine I don't think there's an issue", your argument is as compelling as someone who says COVID didn't happen because they haven't been sick.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:51 AM on December 27, 2023 [43 favorites]
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:51 AM on December 27, 2023 [43 favorites]
Just a note to mention that corner-cutting and denial is a feature of the whole auto industry, not just Tesla. We have have had paint failures with two Hondas now.
One friend has had a Model 3, for 3 or 4 years now (he wanted an EV as their retirement vehicle, and he's a conservation/ecology zealot), and I got to drive it for an hour. It handled great and yeah the acceleration is something, and that power does lull you into manoevres (lane changes, passing) that you might not do otherwise. I did not, and would not, use any of the auto-driving features. I understand that his ownership experience has been good, with one caveat - they're hella expensive to repair after even minor collision damage. His son borrowed it and accidentally backed into a column in a parking lot (that acceleratIon thing, maybe) and the repair cost was in excess of $10k.
Slight derail - why aren't hybrids more popular? They have EV virtues for short urban trips, but fossil fuel's range for longer trips.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
One friend has had a Model 3, for 3 or 4 years now (he wanted an EV as their retirement vehicle, and he's a conservation/ecology zealot), and I got to drive it for an hour. It handled great and yeah the acceleration is something, and that power does lull you into manoevres (lane changes, passing) that you might not do otherwise. I did not, and would not, use any of the auto-driving features. I understand that his ownership experience has been good, with one caveat - they're hella expensive to repair after even minor collision damage. His son borrowed it and accidentally backed into a column in a parking lot (that acceleratIon thing, maybe) and the repair cost was in excess of $10k.
Slight derail - why aren't hybrids more popular? They have EV virtues for short urban trips, but fossil fuel's range for longer trips.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:00 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
>I'm surprised they've traded that away.
2022's IRA mandated CCS-1 only, which over time would have pushed Tesla into an Macintosh vs. Windows 95 situation.
This was a short-term sacrifice of their walled garden approach to retain long-term viability. This also means that eventually Level 2 chargers will be J3400 instead of J1772 too . . .
posted by torokunai at 9:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
2022's IRA mandated CCS-1 only, which over time would have pushed Tesla into an Macintosh vs. Windows 95 situation.
This was a short-term sacrifice of their walled garden approach to retain long-term viability. This also means that eventually Level 2 chargers will be J3400 instead of J1772 too . . .
posted by torokunai at 9:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The people who think all Tesla drivers are immature, irresponsible bros is really frustrating- at the time, these cars were some of the few electric options available and we wanted to make a more environmentally responsible choice.
I'm so sorry the corporate brand you chose as a vehicle to express your personal values has been irreparably tainted by its association with a fascist, dipshit cult leader and his legions of immature, irresponsible bros. If you feel like people are unfairly making generalizations about Tesla drivers, maybe you should take it up with Tesla's marketing department?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:02 AM on December 27, 2023 [52 favorites]
I'm so sorry the corporate brand you chose as a vehicle to express your personal values has been irreparably tainted by its association with a fascist, dipshit cult leader and his legions of immature, irresponsible bros. If you feel like people are unfairly making generalizations about Tesla drivers, maybe you should take it up with Tesla's marketing department?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:02 AM on December 27, 2023 [52 favorites]
This image just keeps getting better. (image text:)
He talked about electric cars. I don't know anything about cars, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.
Then he talked about rockets. I don't know anything about rockets, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.
Now he talks about software. I happen to know a lot about software & Elon Musk is saying the stupidest shit I've ever heard anyone say, so when people say he's a genius I figure I should stay the hell away from his cars and rockets.
posted by xedrik at 9:05 AM on December 27, 2023 [49 favorites]
He talked about electric cars. I don't know anything about cars, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.
Then he talked about rockets. I don't know anything about rockets, so when people said he was a genius I figured he must be a genius.
Now he talks about software. I happen to know a lot about software & Elon Musk is saying the stupidest shit I've ever heard anyone say, so when people say he's a genius I figure I should stay the hell away from his cars and rockets.
posted by xedrik at 9:05 AM on December 27, 2023 [49 favorites]
I’m just going to sit this out and wait for the aftermarket kits and builders that line up to unfuck the Tesla’s that owners abandon due to these issues. Then again, I can also see a future where all of these vehicles are systematically destroyed and recycled after being declared a net loss + risk to society. Either way, this feels like a pivotal moment in EV history. What happens next might even become precedent for how tech heavy manufacturing is held accountable (or not) in the future.
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 9:12 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 9:12 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
If the population data shows that there are significantly higher build quality issues with a vehicle and your response is "hasn't happened to mine I don't think there's an issue", your argument is as compelling as someone who says COVID didn't happen because they haven't been sick.
Clearly the car just needs a dose of Ivermectin.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:13 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Clearly the car just needs a dose of Ivermectin.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:13 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't shop at Walmart or Chick-fil-a, but I do shop at Amazon despite also knowing how terrible they are. There is, of course, no ethical consumption under capitalism.
But Elon Musk and Tesla should be a no-brainer especially if you're privileged enough to have the money for a brand new Tesla.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
But Elon Musk and Tesla should be a no-brainer especially if you're privileged enough to have the money for a brand new Tesla.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:14 AM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Being a LEAF driver I get to see the CSS-1 charge connector form factor fail close & personal and I don't have time for that (plus EA is utter garbage and a pain to use even at 3:00 in the dead of night, let alone in some random Walmart parking lot at 3:OOPM.)
I was a big fan of the Bollinger (my first Twitter follow) but was sad to see them not launch.
All I want is an electric car that's good for getting me around the western half of the USA for #vanlife activities. So far the Model Y is the best in breed for this, but maybe Toyota will pull the thumb out by 2025 with their electric truck.
posted by torokunai at 9:23 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was a big fan of the Bollinger (my first Twitter follow) but was sad to see them not launch.
All I want is an electric car that's good for getting me around the western half of the USA for #vanlife activities. So far the Model Y is the best in breed for this, but maybe Toyota will pull the thumb out by 2025 with their electric truck.
posted by torokunai at 9:23 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tesla's ridiculous instance on running the whole car user interface through the non haptic feedback tablet could explain half the difference in accident rates all by itself.
How the legacy makers figure this out will be interesting, but there's nothing wrong with Tesla's way of doing it.
Bet they handle this by letting Tesla enshittify the service with reduced maintenance, user fees, and reduction of locations or availability. I expect to see SuperchargePlus (better in some nebulous way but for pay) being rolled out real soon now with existing supercharge stations being converted with maybe a single old free station still being available. Enough to quell a lawsuit but not enough to have Tesla pay the electric bills of their users.
posted by Mitheral at 9:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
How the legacy makers figure this out will be interesting, but there's nothing wrong with Tesla's way of doing it.
Bet they handle this by letting Tesla enshittify the service with reduced maintenance, user fees, and reduction of locations or availability. I expect to see SuperchargePlus (better in some nebulous way but for pay) being rolled out real soon now with existing supercharge stations being converted with maybe a single old free station still being available. Enough to quell a lawsuit but not enough to have Tesla pay the electric bills of their users.
posted by Mitheral at 9:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Slight derail - why aren't hybrids more popular?
They are! Plug-in Hybrids are a big part of the total EV market, see here for some data (in a press release format). Wikipedia also has some data showing globally PHEVs are 30-40% of all EVs while Battery EVs are the remaining 60-70%. It varies significantly by country.
One downside of a PHEV is they still have the complexity of an engine. A big thing I love about my BEV is how simple it is. No engine, no pistons, no oil changes... Volvo is currently making both kinds. I have several friends with the XC60 Recharge PHEV, their good experience motivated me to get my C40 Recharge Pure Electric. The XC60 only has a 35 mile range on battery but that's just what you need for local errands.
posted by Nelson at 9:26 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
They are! Plug-in Hybrids are a big part of the total EV market, see here for some data (in a press release format). Wikipedia also has some data showing globally PHEVs are 30-40% of all EVs while Battery EVs are the remaining 60-70%. It varies significantly by country.
One downside of a PHEV is they still have the complexity of an engine. A big thing I love about my BEV is how simple it is. No engine, no pistons, no oil changes... Volvo is currently making both kinds. I have several friends with the XC60 Recharge PHEV, their good experience motivated me to get my C40 Recharge Pure Electric. The XC60 only has a 35 mile range on battery but that's just what you need for local errands.
posted by Nelson at 9:26 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
>whole car user interface through the non haptic feedback
I didn't expect to like this, coming from 40 years of driving traditional cars.
But the general idea with the tablet is you just set it & forget it: automatic climate, lights, wipers, etc. Theoretically this is great and getting a big display for navigation to the next charger is a good tradeoff while we wait for this feature to be actually great.
posted by torokunai at 9:26 AM on December 27, 2023
I didn't expect to like this, coming from 40 years of driving traditional cars.
But the general idea with the tablet is you just set it & forget it: automatic climate, lights, wipers, etc. Theoretically this is great and getting a big display for navigation to the next charger is a good tradeoff while we wait for this feature to be actually great.
posted by torokunai at 9:26 AM on December 27, 2023
Electric car anecdote:
I've leased 2 Prius Primes and now have a RAV4 Prime, and have been using the 110V charger the whole time- 12 hours for a full charge on the RAV.
I'm sure there's a big difference in charge times between Hybrid and full electric, but my daughter just showed up in a rented KIA Niro. She had used about 1/3 of the charge so I plugged it into my 110V type 1 plug this morning. (Oh yeah- the rental car didn't come with its own plug. Maybe here's why) I just checked- it's at 75% of full charge, and it'll only take another 16 hours to fully charge.
Non-haptic- boy I hated that in my first Prime, especially the temperature thing. What temperature do I want to set-and-forget?
Well if it's -20 out I might have a different setting than when it's 90 outside.
posted by MtDewd at 9:35 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've leased 2 Prius Primes and now have a RAV4 Prime, and have been using the 110V charger the whole time- 12 hours for a full charge on the RAV.
I'm sure there's a big difference in charge times between Hybrid and full electric, but my daughter just showed up in a rented KIA Niro. She had used about 1/3 of the charge so I plugged it into my 110V type 1 plug this morning. (Oh yeah- the rental car didn't come with its own plug. Maybe here's why) I just checked- it's at 75% of full charge, and it'll only take another 16 hours to fully charge.
Non-haptic- boy I hated that in my first Prime, especially the temperature thing. What temperature do I want to set-and-forget?
Well if it's -20 out I might have a different setting than when it's 90 outside.
posted by MtDewd at 9:35 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't write this meme, but since it is on-topic, I will share for the LOLs:
Something I learned from trail hiking is if you're ever lost in the woods, do not panic, do not go off trail, just say loudly and clearly, "Elon Musk is not a genius," and several of the most unfuckable men alive will appear out of nowhere to call you poor, then you can follow them to the parking lot where their Tesla exploded.
posted by birdsongster at 9:35 AM on December 27, 2023 [66 favorites]
Something I learned from trail hiking is if you're ever lost in the woods, do not panic, do not go off trail, just say loudly and clearly, "Elon Musk is not a genius," and several of the most unfuckable men alive will appear out of nowhere to call you poor, then you can follow them to the parking lot where their Tesla exploded.
posted by birdsongster at 9:35 AM on December 27, 2023 [66 favorites]
>hybrids
if Mazda ships this they might make a hybrid convert out of me. Had to settle for a MX-5 since they had stopped making the RX-7 when I came back to the US in 2000. (Probably because the rotary was a service and pollution nightmare)
posted by torokunai at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
if Mazda ships this they might make a hybrid convert out of me. Had to settle for a MX-5 since they had stopped making the RX-7 when I came back to the US in 2000. (Probably because the rotary was a service and pollution nightmare)
posted by torokunai at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
ridiculous instance on running the whole car user interface through the non haptic feedback tablet
I've rented a bunch of Tesla's because they're fun to drive when they work and when it's a rental you don't care as much that bits keep falling off or the doors don't close properly.
But man I have to say the UI design is not just bad, it's actively hostile. It's like they went out and found people who delight in making people miserable, because every choice is so much worse than what they could have stumbled on by chance.
Adjusting the side mirrors is a fixed problem, guys. It's good. We got it. You don't have to map it to a touchscreen and take away the physical controls and make it so that I can't actually look at the mirrors while I adjust them and bury it three menus deep so I can't do it while I drive in the apparently unforeseeable event that I slightly adjust my sitting position on a long trip.
The entire experience of driving these cars makes me ecstatic that I don't own one, even though I genuinely enjoy the "press the pedal and go" part.
posted by The Bellman at 9:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
I've rented a bunch of Tesla's because they're fun to drive when they work and when it's a rental you don't care as much that bits keep falling off or the doors don't close properly.
But man I have to say the UI design is not just bad, it's actively hostile. It's like they went out and found people who delight in making people miserable, because every choice is so much worse than what they could have stumbled on by chance.
Adjusting the side mirrors is a fixed problem, guys. It's good. We got it. You don't have to map it to a touchscreen and take away the physical controls and make it so that I can't actually look at the mirrors while I adjust them and bury it three menus deep so I can't do it while I drive in the apparently unforeseeable event that I slightly adjust my sitting position on a long trip.
The entire experience of driving these cars makes me ecstatic that I don't own one, even though I genuinely enjoy the "press the pedal and go" part.
posted by The Bellman at 9:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
Dashboard control - I have to say that I DO NOT like the trend to touchscreens, and the TESLA uberscreen definitely makes me nervous. We have an older Ridgeline pickup and a 2016 mazda 3. The Ridgeline dash is all dedicated controls and Everything Just Works. You can find and adjust just about anything by shape and feel, no looking required. I like the radio with 6 buttons and two knobs. The Mazda has a little touchscreen thing on the radio, which is far less intuitive. And guess what's now failing.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:59 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 9:59 AM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Saabs (pre-GM) had lots of dials and large spring-loaded buttons because the best dashboard is the one you don't have to look it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:24 AM on December 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
I am sitting here sighing and yearning and making grabby hands towards that Saab dashboard. The dashboard on my 2014 Volt has exactly two actual dials (for controlling audio functions); everything else is managed by a flat surface with various areas that control everything else, and I tell you what, there's nothing like driving in heavy rain and having to take your eyes off the road and look at the dashboard to try to find the little tiny spot you have to touch in order to get the goddamn defogger to work before you're completely blinded.
posted by Kat Allison at 10:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Kat Allison at 10:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
I want knobs that click when you turn them, and levers and buttons. All physical levers and buttons. I got used to the rear-camera in my brother's Subaru (it's really great once I learned it) but I long for actual buttons and knobs that click.
Hell, I even want a key that goes into the stem of the steering wheel, turns to start the car, and stays there! I never know where I put my keys, especially in winter when I have 16 pockets and a backpack.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:46 AM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
Hell, I even want a key that goes into the stem of the steering wheel, turns to start the car, and stays there! I never know where I put my keys, especially in winter when I have 16 pockets and a backpack.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:46 AM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
And didn't those Saabs have such large buttons and dials so you could easily manipulate them while wearing winter gloves, as one might frequently do while driving in a high latitude country?
I really miss how weird Saabs and Volvos were. Speaking as an American, the cars always felt a little different, almost as if they came from some strange foreign land where safety was as important, or even more important, than style or performance. Now they're just another luxury brand.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:50 AM on December 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
I really miss how weird Saabs and Volvos were. Speaking as an American, the cars always felt a little different, almost as if they came from some strange foreign land where safety was as important, or even more important, than style or performance. Now they're just another luxury brand.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:50 AM on December 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
Yes, that was part of the consideration. Saab also took a lot of lessons from human factors in avionics and aircraft cockpit design (for the pictured 900 and especially the follow-on 9000).
The 80s/90s kid in me still wants cars with heads up displays.
If you want to style your steering wheel as a yoke fine, but intuitive ground vehicle controls are a solved problem. We instinctually stop and go with our feet, not our hands. We point with those.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:21 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
The 80s/90s kid in me still wants cars with heads up displays.
If you want to style your steering wheel as a yoke fine, but intuitive ground vehicle controls are a solved problem. We instinctually stop and go with our feet, not our hands. We point with those.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:21 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
a key that goes into the stem of the steering wheel
So... not a SAAB then? #IYKYK
posted by The Bellman at 11:23 AM on December 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
So... not a SAAB then? #IYKYK
posted by The Bellman at 11:23 AM on December 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
Even British cars from the 60s and 70s managed to not have their suspension control arms catastrophically fail*. If in the year of our Lord 2023, with CAD design and testing, modern alloys and manufacturing techniques etc. you can't measure up to the standards of '70s Britian, you have failed so, so hard. *red locktite was sometimes needed to prevent the A-arm hardware from working loose on my MG. But the arms themselves were rock solid.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 11:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 11:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
welp. Just clicked the Apple Pay button on a 2023 Model Y for $6000 off MSRP list price. Wish me luck, folks.
posted by torokunai at 11:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by torokunai at 11:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don’t see how Tesla is going to be able to sustain its business going forward.
I think we all agree that Tesla has benefitted greatly from the "first-mover" advantage, as well as from govt incentives. And, this thread notwithstanding, they have made enough buyers happy enough that they've continued to make sales while the established car-makers have struggled to get EV models onto their lots.
So... even given these pains with the first models, one would expect that the next generation of Tesla models are already developed, and that they've hopefully done their homework re the failing components, as well as some new economies in manufacturing, which, in a normal automaker, is how they would stay in business.
I see three clouds in Tesla's future:
#3 - fallout from the reported failures eats profit and damages the brand enough that they don't recover
#2 - the Cybertruck is as bad as it seems, doesn't catch on, and their other new models are equally off-point
#1 - the Elon Factor. Maybe he'll also tell his potential car customers to go fuck themselves.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think we all agree that Tesla has benefitted greatly from the "first-mover" advantage, as well as from govt incentives. And, this thread notwithstanding, they have made enough buyers happy enough that they've continued to make sales while the established car-makers have struggled to get EV models onto their lots.
So... even given these pains with the first models, one would expect that the next generation of Tesla models are already developed, and that they've hopefully done their homework re the failing components, as well as some new economies in manufacturing, which, in a normal automaker, is how they would stay in business.
I see three clouds in Tesla's future:
#3 - fallout from the reported failures eats profit and damages the brand enough that they don't recover
#2 - the Cybertruck is as bad as it seems, doesn't catch on, and their other new models are equally off-point
#1 - the Elon Factor. Maybe he'll also tell his potential car customers to go fuck themselves.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
^ fair play on the above 1,2,3 points.
Getting the Model Y because the Cybertruck isn't all that appealing to me. (I'd like one in normal aluminum tho!)
posted by torokunai at 11:36 AM on December 27, 2023
Getting the Model Y because the Cybertruck isn't all that appealing to me. (I'd like one in normal aluminum tho!)
posted by torokunai at 11:36 AM on December 27, 2023
Maybe he'll also tell his potential car customers to go fuck themselves.
"Bribe my business with money?"
appealing to me
Absolutely go fuck your car.
(Which, to be fair, is no different than most luxury marks.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:36 AM on December 27, 2023
"Bribe my business with money?"
appealing to me
Absolutely go fuck your car.
(Which, to be fair, is no different than most luxury marks.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:36 AM on December 27, 2023
The 80s/90s kid in me still wants cars with heads up displays.
I have one.
My 2017 Mazda CX-5 has a lot of "set it and forget it" features, but it still mostly has the old-style haptic controls because as people are mentioning frequently, sometimes what the car thinks needs to happen needs to be overridden - my automatic headlights work great and the only problem I have is when I take it for an oil change and my lights get turned "off" and then I'm driving around with my headlights off for a while before I realize it; auto wipers work great except for foggy glass. Climate control is the big miss - I have an "auto" setting, but if I want to control where the fan blows I have to push up/down buttons to cycle through the options, and if the "auto" setting is on, the system can be a bit too aggressive with turning up the fan to the max to get to where the setting is at. But mostly I can drive and change things without looking at my control panel.
I'll be forever thankful to Tesla for proving that there's a market for EVs and dragging the rest of the manufacturers into it, but I'm hoping a company that takes cars seriously is able to design a different EV at some point from the ground up as an EV rather than adapting an old platform, and maybe I'll buy that at some point.
posted by LionIndex at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have one.
My 2017 Mazda CX-5 has a lot of "set it and forget it" features, but it still mostly has the old-style haptic controls because as people are mentioning frequently, sometimes what the car thinks needs to happen needs to be overridden - my automatic headlights work great and the only problem I have is when I take it for an oil change and my lights get turned "off" and then I'm driving around with my headlights off for a while before I realize it; auto wipers work great except for foggy glass. Climate control is the big miss - I have an "auto" setting, but if I want to control where the fan blows I have to push up/down buttons to cycle through the options, and if the "auto" setting is on, the system can be a bit too aggressive with turning up the fan to the max to get to where the setting is at. But mostly I can drive and change things without looking at my control panel.
I'll be forever thankful to Tesla for proving that there's a market for EVs and dragging the rest of the manufacturers into it, but I'm hoping a company that takes cars seriously is able to design a different EV at some point from the ground up as an EV rather than adapting an old platform, and maybe I'll buy that at some point.
posted by LionIndex at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
>Absolutely go fuck your car.
The funny thing about this Model Y is that if I had my druthers, nobody would ever see it, as I sneak it out at night up & down US-99, 101,1 and I-5 – I'm getting it to take me to good hiking and camping around the west coast this decade and next. The LEAF will handle the small-ball in-town stuff (which, alas, is all it's suitable for)
posted by torokunai at 11:50 AM on December 27, 2023
The funny thing about this Model Y is that if I had my druthers, nobody would ever see it, as I sneak it out at night up & down US-99, 101,1 and I-5 – I'm getting it to take me to good hiking and camping around the west coast this decade and next. The LEAF will handle the small-ball in-town stuff (which, alas, is all it's suitable for)
posted by torokunai at 11:50 AM on December 27, 2023
Soon Teslas are going powered by dissonance alone.
posted by srboisvert at 11:52 AM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 11:52 AM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
How the legacy makers figure this out will be interesting, but there's nothing wrong with Tesla's way of doing it.
I mean, other than you have to tie your credit card to the car, or use an app to start the charge, instead of a one and done transaction. And if you like that convience, more power to you - there's nothing in "pay at the pump" regs that says you can't also do that (just as gas pumps support fleet charging) - it just says that you also have to provide that one and done transaction capability.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, other than you have to tie your credit card to the car, or use an app to start the charge, instead of a one and done transaction. And if you like that convience, more power to you - there's nothing in "pay at the pump" regs that says you can't also do that (just as gas pumps support fleet charging) - it just says that you also have to provide that one and done transaction capability.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
The thing about EVs and networks is that it's all so static.
I've been driving EVs in California since when Fry's had the incompatible AVCON J1772 chargers up front.
App hell has been the general experience with my LEAF, with ChargePoint & EA and now the new Shell network I don't have an app for yet. (EVgo is on my Nissan-issued EZ Charge card so I just boop that on the charger, usually NBD at least.)
I actively *want* to just register a payment method once for my BEV and be done with it, like Tesla does it. No touch-to-start, swipe-right. Just plug in and go.
posted by torokunai at 12:11 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been driving EVs in California since when Fry's had the incompatible AVCON J1772 chargers up front.
App hell has been the general experience with my LEAF, with ChargePoint & EA and now the new Shell network I don't have an app for yet. (EVgo is on my Nissan-issued EZ Charge card so I just boop that on the charger, usually NBD at least.)
I actively *want* to just register a payment method once for my BEV and be done with it, like Tesla does it. No touch-to-start, swipe-right. Just plug in and go.
posted by torokunai at 12:11 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The US experience of EVs is different from other places. As is the charging network. I got an interesting comment from a European on Reddit recently about his charging experience there:
posted by Nelson at 12:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
In Europe I have a single account with a charging company (Elli, but there are many with similar features) and I have an NFC card associated with it. There are roaming contracts behind the scenes among companies, so my card works with basically every charger (fast or slow) in Europe. Like it's not 100%, but it must be more than 95%. You plug in, press your card to the reader and off you go, you'll receive the bill at the end of the month.For the US I really don't understand why the chargers don't just take credit cards. Actually a few do, but then the card readers seem to always be broken. I assume mostly it's because some marketing asshole has decided they want an app so they can track their customers, surveillance capitalism at work. Any app with a plausible excuse to track location is very valuable these days.
car companies know this and actively push for it. Elli is owned by VW (but it's open to anyone) and the account was done for me when I bought my car, so there's even less friction. The gps in the car by default plans the charging stops knowing the roaming network. Now, the VW navigation is kind of stupid at times, so I normally use ABRP, but even there you can select which card you have and it will route towards roaming partners.
posted by Nelson at 12:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Soon Teslas are going powered by dissonance alone.
The hybrid version limps home on diffidence.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:32 PM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
The hybrid version limps home on diffidence.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:32 PM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
We don't really need a dozen posts about your car purchase.
posted by ryanrs at 1:15 PM on December 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:15 PM on December 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
Tesla sales pitch: A portion of your purchase price will go to a nazi in need of a monetization platform — thanks to our beloved leader. One or more of your wheels may fall out.
Wealthy liberal buyer: take my money!!
posted by UN at 1:50 PM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
Wealthy liberal buyer: take my money!!
posted by UN at 1:50 PM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
Well 👀 hasn't this been a rambunctious thread (by MeFi standards anyway).
Reading it, though, I finally remembered what it was that Musk's GFY moment had put me in mind of. I would apologise to those who've seen it before, and to non-nerds, but perhaps instead in the spirit of the thread I'll invite them to see figure 1.
posted by BCMagee at 1:53 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Reading it, though, I finally remembered what it was that Musk's GFY moment had put me in mind of. I would apologise to those who've seen it before, and to non-nerds, but perhaps instead in the spirit of the thread I'll invite them to see figure 1.
posted by BCMagee at 1:53 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I never really understood why turning on your headlights, etc was so difficult. People who claim their automagic lights work well are probably the ones I saw yesterday driving in blinding snow without their lights. As for smudge screens controlling everything, this is why I will probably continue driving 80s or 90s-era cars to avoid that stuff. The trouble will be when all of those cars have been completely used up.
posted by drstrangelove at 2:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by drstrangelove at 2:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
My favorite nowadays are cars (like my wrx) where you can just leave your lights on and the car turns them off when or shortly after you shut down.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
a coworker's 2019 Model 3 lost its transmission
Not likely, as Teslas don't have transmissions. Must have been something else.
posted by spitbull at 2:32 PM on December 27, 2023
Not likely, as Teslas don't have transmissions. Must have been something else.
posted by spitbull at 2:32 PM on December 27, 2023
I never really understood why turning on your headlights, etc was so difficult.
once I got automatic lights there was no going back. it's just the greatest thing. a tiny technical advance that feels totally worth 100x whatever it cost
posted by chavenet at 2:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
once I got automatic lights there was no going back. it's just the greatest thing. a tiny technical advance that feels totally worth 100x whatever it cost
posted by chavenet at 2:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
In followup to the main story, it seems to have kicked over a hornet's nest, with two senators calling for an investigation into the claims, as well as the Swedish and Norwegian governments also opening investigations.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:56 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:56 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
These aren’t unique (nor original) to Tesla. My three-year-old Subaru has similar, equally insistent, systems.
As does everything Toyota makes nowadays.
posted by Ipsifendus at 3:19 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
As does everything Toyota makes nowadays.
posted by Ipsifendus at 3:19 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
grarrarragrgh do serious people, like, economists ‘n’ other people who actually make decisions about stuff, do those people indulge in reasoning like the reasoning in the quoted statement? - bombastic lowercase pronouncements
Since you seem genuinely interested in economics and have strong views on the matter, I'll lay out the reasoning from first principles.
There is a concept called normal profits - the bare minimum profit that is required for a business to remain operating. At the very least, it should cover what is called cost of capital. If investors can get risk free returns from treasury notes or term deposits at around 4% today, then a business needs to show a plan to yield at least 6% since they are not risk free - a business could make losses or go bankrupt. If the business can't show a plan to reach 6% profit, they will likely cease to exist in the long run unless they can keep convincing investors that a turn-round is coming, pinky promise!
There is a concept called perfect competition, where in a market with sufficiently strong competition, every producer in the chain has an incentive to undercut each other until they are making the bare minimum profit to stay in business (normal profits).
So we look at the evidence. What are automotive net margins? This handy page at NYU Stern is an updated 5 year weighted average financial performance by sector in the US. You can download the raw data and also the list of companies that make up each sector.
Auto Parts earns 2.16% net margin (American Axle, Nexteer, Visteon, Lear - these are component makers)
The Auto and Truck sector earns a 5.02% net margin (Tesla, GM, Ford, Toyota - these are the vehicle assemblers)
Automotive Retail earns 4.07% net margin (Autonation, Lithia, Sonic, Carmax - these are the dealerships)
So we can conclude the automotive industry is close to perfect competition, and most participants earn normal profits. When we talk about the "producer" - of any good - we are really talking about the entire chain of production. Of course, it's possible that one link in the chain is captured by a monopoly earning super-normal profits, but I don't think there is anything like that here - the automotive industry is a mature industry about 100 years old and governments around the world have a vested interest in ensuring no super-normal profits are being raked in by monopolies.
A typical transaction involves the intersection of -
Cost To Produce - what it takes to manufacture the product, including the 6% normal profit margin, say $30,000 for a car.
Willingness to Pay - what a consumer values the product at. If a customer values the convenience of having a car at $40,000, given the alternatives (taking public transport, getting a job closer to home) - then they will pay up to $40,000 for a car.
Theoretically, a transaction is possible at any point between $30,000 and $40,000. If the buyer and seller transacts at $35,000, then the producer makes $5,000 in what's called excess profits (anything above and beyond normal profits) and the consumer enjoys what is called consumer surplus - the consumer valued the product at $40,000, but enjoyed $5,000 of "extra value" because they only paid $35,000 for it.
In conditions of perfect competition, the price gets competed downwards to the normal profit level so the vehicle in this example would transact at $30,000, with the manufacturer earning normal profits and the consumer enjoying $10,000 of consumer surplus.
Now what happens if the government mandates new emissions and safety protocols that add $2,000 to the price of the vehicle but doesn't directly improve customer perception of value? (yes, Marketing will tell you emissions updates don't contribute to perceived value add, and neither do invisible safety improvements like fail-operational steering)
Then the cost to produce simply becomes $22,000 while customer willingness to pay remains at $30,000. The industry still earns normal profits since the cars now transact at $22,000, but consumer surplus has been reduced to $8,000.
---
This must be somewhat recent, in the cars I own if the power steering pump fails then you're muscling the wheel and parking can be (literally) a pain.
It was with the advent of electric power steering (EPAS) that cost effective redundancy became possible, it's been around for about a decade now.
--
Despite the additional cost, commercial and military aircraft typically have at least triple redundancy for critical mechanical parts required for the safe operation of the craft. Aviation safety engineering and regulations are as evidence-based as they get, for obvious reasons. I'd be curious to know what these counterintuitive or paradoxical effects are, esp. in this domain.
I think it comes down to cost per life saved (like everything else).
If you were the government and you had the power to issue a decree that $2 billion per year is spent on safety, the answer probably isn't redundancy for your power steering and other systems. I don't know what it would be, AEB is a good one, a lot of low hanging fruit has already been picked. Stricter licensing - how many fatalities are user error vs mechanical failure - but that's controversial.
Personally, if I was a dictator, it would probably something radical like mandating people drive a smaller, lighter car that doesn't endanger other vulnerable road users like pedestrians. Oh and forcing all cars to have a lower acceleration and speed limit too. This would not cost more money, in fact it would save everyone money and saves lives at the same time, but cuts into people's personal "freedoms", not that as a dictator I think those specific freedoms are very important in the large scheme of things...
It's not that redundancy is bad, it's that the hyper-focus on redundancy may lead the team to overlook some other fundamental issues, and there's always a weight / packaging dimension / cost trade-off that you're making that impacts the product negatively.
posted by xdvesper at 4:54 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Since you seem genuinely interested in economics and have strong views on the matter, I'll lay out the reasoning from first principles.
There is a concept called normal profits - the bare minimum profit that is required for a business to remain operating. At the very least, it should cover what is called cost of capital. If investors can get risk free returns from treasury notes or term deposits at around 4% today, then a business needs to show a plan to yield at least 6% since they are not risk free - a business could make losses or go bankrupt. If the business can't show a plan to reach 6% profit, they will likely cease to exist in the long run unless they can keep convincing investors that a turn-round is coming, pinky promise!
There is a concept called perfect competition, where in a market with sufficiently strong competition, every producer in the chain has an incentive to undercut each other until they are making the bare minimum profit to stay in business (normal profits).
So we look at the evidence. What are automotive net margins? This handy page at NYU Stern is an updated 5 year weighted average financial performance by sector in the US. You can download the raw data and also the list of companies that make up each sector.
Auto Parts earns 2.16% net margin (American Axle, Nexteer, Visteon, Lear - these are component makers)
The Auto and Truck sector earns a 5.02% net margin (Tesla, GM, Ford, Toyota - these are the vehicle assemblers)
Automotive Retail earns 4.07% net margin (Autonation, Lithia, Sonic, Carmax - these are the dealerships)
So we can conclude the automotive industry is close to perfect competition, and most participants earn normal profits. When we talk about the "producer" - of any good - we are really talking about the entire chain of production. Of course, it's possible that one link in the chain is captured by a monopoly earning super-normal profits, but I don't think there is anything like that here - the automotive industry is a mature industry about 100 years old and governments around the world have a vested interest in ensuring no super-normal profits are being raked in by monopolies.
A typical transaction involves the intersection of -
Cost To Produce - what it takes to manufacture the product, including the 6% normal profit margin, say $30,000 for a car.
Willingness to Pay - what a consumer values the product at. If a customer values the convenience of having a car at $40,000, given the alternatives (taking public transport, getting a job closer to home) - then they will pay up to $40,000 for a car.
Theoretically, a transaction is possible at any point between $30,000 and $40,000. If the buyer and seller transacts at $35,000, then the producer makes $5,000 in what's called excess profits (anything above and beyond normal profits) and the consumer enjoys what is called consumer surplus - the consumer valued the product at $40,000, but enjoyed $5,000 of "extra value" because they only paid $35,000 for it.
In conditions of perfect competition, the price gets competed downwards to the normal profit level so the vehicle in this example would transact at $30,000, with the manufacturer earning normal profits and the consumer enjoying $10,000 of consumer surplus.
Now what happens if the government mandates new emissions and safety protocols that add $2,000 to the price of the vehicle but doesn't directly improve customer perception of value? (yes, Marketing will tell you emissions updates don't contribute to perceived value add, and neither do invisible safety improvements like fail-operational steering)
Then the cost to produce simply becomes $22,000 while customer willingness to pay remains at $30,000. The industry still earns normal profits since the cars now transact at $22,000, but consumer surplus has been reduced to $8,000.
---
This must be somewhat recent, in the cars I own if the power steering pump fails then you're muscling the wheel and parking can be (literally) a pain.
It was with the advent of electric power steering (EPAS) that cost effective redundancy became possible, it's been around for about a decade now.
--
Despite the additional cost, commercial and military aircraft typically have at least triple redundancy for critical mechanical parts required for the safe operation of the craft. Aviation safety engineering and regulations are as evidence-based as they get, for obvious reasons. I'd be curious to know what these counterintuitive or paradoxical effects are, esp. in this domain.
I think it comes down to cost per life saved (like everything else).
If you were the government and you had the power to issue a decree that $2 billion per year is spent on safety, the answer probably isn't redundancy for your power steering and other systems. I don't know what it would be, AEB is a good one, a lot of low hanging fruit has already been picked. Stricter licensing - how many fatalities are user error vs mechanical failure - but that's controversial.
Personally, if I was a dictator, it would probably something radical like mandating people drive a smaller, lighter car that doesn't endanger other vulnerable road users like pedestrians. Oh and forcing all cars to have a lower acceleration and speed limit too. This would not cost more money, in fact it would save everyone money and saves lives at the same time, but cuts into people's personal "freedoms", not that as a dictator I think those specific freedoms are very important in the large scheme of things...
It's not that redundancy is bad, it's that the hyper-focus on redundancy may lead the team to overlook some other fundamental issues, and there's always a weight / packaging dimension / cost trade-off that you're making that impacts the product negatively.
posted by xdvesper at 4:54 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Tesla doesn't manufacture these parts. Cast aluminum control arms have been used for years by other manufacturers, with seemingly no major problems. Why are Tesla and its suppliers having issues over so many years?
Tesla has made a big deal about its adventures in high-tech forging. Do you know for sure that they don't make those parts? I would have expected that they did make them.
posted by Western Infidels at 5:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tesla has made a big deal about its adventures in high-tech forging. Do you know for sure that they don't make those parts? I would have expected that they did make them.
posted by Western Infidels at 5:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tesla have a transmission- it’s a single gear. It’s simple design should be more reliable but high torque abuse like hard launches and lack of cooling can lead to failure. Its unlikely to be something that Tesla manufactures, but Tesla is very secretive about it sources. My purely speculative guess is Magna, because there’s a lawsuit.
posted by zenon at 5:40 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by zenon at 5:40 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Whenever I drive and encounter a Tesla, I stay as far away from it as possible.
I wish I could, but the damn things are everywhere. But seriously, hearing that it takes literally months to get repairs on the things, and all this other stuff...not only no, but hell no.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wish I could, but the damn things are everywhere. But seriously, hearing that it takes literally months to get repairs on the things, and all this other stuff...not only no, but hell no.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I never really understood why turning on your headlights, etc was so difficult.
It is remembering to turn the lights off that is hard. Back in the day "oops, left the lights on, now the battery is dead" was pretty routine. Same with leaving the interior light on, which my modern car will also shut off for me.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:09 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is remembering to turn the lights off that is hard. Back in the day "oops, left the lights on, now the battery is dead" was pretty routine. Same with leaving the interior light on, which my modern car will also shut off for me.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:09 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
My favorite nowadays are cars (like my wrx) where you can just leave your lights on and the car turns them off when or shortly after you shut down.
I hate this. I have a long history of dead batteries, either from my own carelessness or my young children leaving reading lights on in the wayback of the van. Sometimes I click the overhead light on to look for something just before I get out of the car, and then I open the door and I can't tell whether the light is going to stay on or not. Did I unclick it? I don't know. If I didn't, will it still turn off? I can't remember. I just want to know: are my lights on or off? It doesn't seem like it should be that hard.
I was really disappointed by all the people saying, "Well my Tesla works great!" A product doesn't get recalled because every single one is broken in some way; they get recalled because something bad is happening more often than expected. Equipment for babies can get recalled after a handful of injuries or a single death. When I had babies, formula got recalled all the time, which makes formula seem terribly unsafe but I think actually reflected a "better safe than sorry" attitude when problems showed up.
I'm one of those people who has not yet had Covid. And nobody in my immediate family has either. Lots of my friends have, and a couple have Long Covid, but I don't know anyone who's died from it. We gather statistics because the experience of any given individual isn't necessarily representative.
I was really struck early in the linked piece by the wheels falling off. I'd have said, using the terminology of someone up-thread, that "wheels staying on the car" was a solved problem.
Having complained about the car up there, I should mention I don't actually own a car at the moment. I'm a mobility scooter user, and since June I've been using my scooter and public transit for almost everything. I really love the independence it gives me— the hardest part of any errand for me can be getting my gear out of the vehicle and then back into, and it makes quick errands really difficult to manage with a car. With a scooter, I can just doodle right into a place, take care of my business, and doodle back out again. But I will say that sudden acceleration is one of the challenges with mobility scooters as well, if you're in a tight space and forget to set your speed to "turtle." I'd really love a mobility scooter with a throttle on the handlebar like on a motorcycle.
posted by Well I never at 9:05 PM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Tesla doesn't manufacture these parts. Cast aluminum control arms have been used for years by other manufacturers, with seemingly no major problems. Why are Tesla and its suppliers having issues over so many years?
BEVs are far heavier when compared to a similarly sized ICE vehicle, so their control arms (and suspension components in general) need to be designed with that extra mass in mind, especially when going over bumps. In other words BEV suspension components need to be beefier. The article makes one wonder if Tesla engineers failed to account for this.
posted by hrpomrx at 9:24 PM on December 27, 2023
BEVs are far heavier when compared to a similarly sized ICE vehicle, so their control arms (and suspension components in general) need to be designed with that extra mass in mind, especially when going over bumps. In other words BEV suspension components need to be beefier. The article makes one wonder if Tesla engineers failed to account for this.
posted by hrpomrx at 9:24 PM on December 27, 2023
This perpetual hating on Tesla strikes me as very much "Old Man Yells at Cloud." The people who buy Teslas do not read Defector, I honestly question whether they actually read the news at all (with the exception of the three who will now comment below). People are going to keep buying Teslas because they are luxury cars with good features, a good charging network, and they are a status symbol.
Also, I'm not going to buy a Tesla because...I read the news.
posted by Toddles at 10:00 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, I'm not going to buy a Tesla because...I read the news.
posted by Toddles at 10:00 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
5 years ago as a happy Gen 2 LEAF owner, prior to the successful launch of the Model 3, I just assumed Detroit, the Germans, the Koreans, and the Japanese would catch the EV religion and Tesla would continue to be a niche luxury sedan maker like Fisker and Lucid still are.
Boy was I wrong about that!
As for 'reading the news'
posted by torokunai at 10:30 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Boy was I wrong about that!
As for 'reading the news'
posted by torokunai at 10:30 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
For those curious about the internal gubbins of Tesla cars, the Youtube channel "Weber Auto" has several videos highlighting drive units, power electronics and HVAC setup among others. The listed ones are those I've watched. These are explanatory teardown videos made by a college professor for the school's automotive program.
From what I've heard and seen, Tesla cars are poorly assembled from good parts. The drive units (the "not a transmission", motor and differential gears in one package) are questionably designed but solidly spec'd and apparently well-built. They look adequate to the task of shunting a 3500kg salon car about. They are not race equipment, nor yet heavy equipment. The inverter is capable of supplying enough power to eventually blast this thing apart, for long enough to make it happen- and the cooling system is strong enough to keep the inverter from overloading itself while it's overloading the drivetrain. These cars are hot rods, hoopties from the factory.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:01 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
From what I've heard and seen, Tesla cars are poorly assembled from good parts. The drive units (the "not a transmission", motor and differential gears in one package) are questionably designed but solidly spec'd and apparently well-built. They look adequate to the task of shunting a 3500kg salon car about. They are not race equipment, nor yet heavy equipment. The inverter is capable of supplying enough power to eventually blast this thing apart, for long enough to make it happen- and the cooling system is strong enough to keep the inverter from overloading itself while it's overloading the drivetrain. These cars are hot rods, hoopties from the factory.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:01 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was impressed with the Weber teardown of the Bolt, since I got to see the cooling plate that Nissan said eh, we don't need that LOL about
posted by torokunai at 12:00 AM on December 28, 2023
posted by torokunai at 12:00 AM on December 28, 2023
This perpetual hating on Tesla strikes me as very much "Old Man Yells at Cloud."
Tesla drivers don't live in a bubble. Other people have to share the road with these vehicles. People are impacted physically, injured and killed by these things — people who are not Tesla drivers.
People speak out about the dangers of unsafe vehicles (due to size, speed, weight, etc.) from other carmakers all the time. Tesla makes big claims, they better expect to get some pushback when those are exposed as lies.
Should people stop complaining because only 1 million people die because of car accidents every year? It's an absurd idea in my opinion!
posted by UN at 12:23 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Tesla drivers don't live in a bubble. Other people have to share the road with these vehicles. People are impacted physically, injured and killed by these things — people who are not Tesla drivers.
People speak out about the dangers of unsafe vehicles (due to size, speed, weight, etc.) from other carmakers all the time. Tesla makes big claims, they better expect to get some pushback when those are exposed as lies.
Should people stop complaining because only 1 million people die because of car accidents every year? It's an absurd idea in my opinion!
posted by UN at 12:23 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
It is remembering to turn the lights off that is hard. Back in the day "oops, left the lights on, now the battery is dead" was pretty routine. Same with leaving the interior light on, which my modern car will also shut off for me.
They solved that problem decades ago with a chime that reminds you that you left them on.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:10 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
They solved that problem decades ago with a chime that reminds you that you left them on.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:10 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
once I got automatic lights there was no going back. it's just the greatest thing. a tiny technical advance that feels totally worth 100x whatever it cost
A technical "advance" that has been around for decades yet still suffers from the same problem it always did--- failing to turn on the headlights in inclement conditions such as fog, rain, snow, etc.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:11 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
A technical "advance" that has been around for decades yet still suffers from the same problem it always did--- failing to turn on the headlights in inclement conditions such as fog, rain, snow, etc.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:11 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure the 1991 Volvo 240 we had growing up had headlights that turned off with the key. Prior to the introduction of running lights, I think they expected the default state of headlights to be "on" and made sure things failed to safe (or in this case, not draining your battery).
Manual control of headlights is nice though. When I back out of the driveway, my car's line of sight sweeps past my neighbor's windows. Instead of blasting their bedroom full of light in the pre-dawn ours, I try to be considerate by not turning my headlights on until I'm further out into the road. This is the kind of edge-case software bros never think about in their quest to reduce everything to a minimal set of options.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:19 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Manual control of headlights is nice though. When I back out of the driveway, my car's line of sight sweeps past my neighbor's windows. Instead of blasting their bedroom full of light in the pre-dawn ours, I try to be considerate by not turning my headlights on until I'm further out into the road. This is the kind of edge-case software bros never think about in their quest to reduce everything to a minimal set of options.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:19 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
They solved that problem decades ago with a chime that reminds you that you left them on.
I'm old enough to remember driving cars that didn't have the chime. I also remember how on many cars people deliberately disconnected the chime because it also beeped if you didn't connect your seatbelt, which were just then becoming mandatory and many people hated.
But even with a working chime, it's still easy to be distracted and just not pay attention. People are fallible. Switching from warning chimes to a switch that automatically turns the lights out after X minutes makes a big difference.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm old enough to remember driving cars that didn't have the chime. I also remember how on many cars people deliberately disconnected the chime because it also beeped if you didn't connect your seatbelt, which were just then becoming mandatory and many people hated.
But even with a working chime, it's still easy to be distracted and just not pay attention. People are fallible. Switching from warning chimes to a switch that automatically turns the lights out after X minutes makes a big difference.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cars are too expensive, man.
Years ago you could get a car that had hand cranked windows and the little fold out glass on the window for ventilation. The car with manual systems was thousands less than the ones with power windows/power locks/air conditioning.
Now not only do you have the added expense of power windows and air conditioning as standard the makers have added heated seats, motors to move the seat about, various radios (some so the car maker can obtain data about you to sell off to advertisers but sold to you as a safety benefit) and then the government mandate class of expenses.
By saying the automakers need to have anti-drunk driving methods in the car now you have driver facing cameras along with all the electronics and software to accomplish the goal of the government law. Those systems have development costs and get added into the cost of your car. When you go to the dealer - That's not a creepy thing, no. The camera is so the car can use your face so your radio preloads and customized temperature settings will be active.
*IF* the car makers figure out AI enough to get the Musk marketing of full self driving then that sensor package and the AI will be added into car costs because that'll end up like power steering, power windows and air conditioning.
I don’t see how Tesla is going to be able to sustain itself going forward. and And Musk says the future of Tesla will be their humanoid robots...
Part of the problem with Tesla is what is the business of Tesla? Cars? AI? Future robot? The solar bailout of his brother? Backstopping people who want to show their popular xits off?
*IF* the Tesla custom AI chips develop a use case along with the robot that will far exceed what he could ever do with cars. If the solar roofs were as awesome as pitchman Musk was 1st saying that market could exceed cars. If Tesla manages to have a battery chemistry/manufacturing method that was better then others that could exceed the tesla car market.
Those forward looking ideas gets some stock market investors willing to bid up the price. And any of the above could make Tesla as a corporation very well off.
Interesting, as in 2014 Tesla was getting top Consumer Reports rankings. Not the case today if you look at the same source.
The rankings have shifted for a whole lotta brands. Same with repair cost. I do not consider it reasonable to have to remove the engine to replace a starter. Having to remove the front wheel and then the plastic wheel well to replace the 12V battery is at least able to be done under the shade of a tree even if I consider that not reasonable. Timing belts/chains and the effort to replace it at the maintenance window is another consideration. That source of truth - youtube - has a rant about a truck engine that was stretched almost the length of a chain link at under 40K miles, how much of the engine parts had to be pulled to get at the timing chain, and how the project was at a halt due to a wore sprocket being at least 1/2 a month out. Few auto makers are "good" it would seem.
Proxies for how good a car is would be time on the lot. It seems some Jeeps are over 700 days.
Tesla's recent sharing of 48V plans for cars is another head scratcher.ystem.
Not at all. The desire to cut down on copper in cars was a thing over 2 decades ago when it was proposed. This was proposed when high current iCs were becoming mainstream.
Some new cars have a 36V system.
I see three clouds in Tesla's future:
#2 - the Cybertruck is as bad as it seems, doesn't catch on, and their other new models are equally off-point
Youtube, the evergreen source of 'I have an opinion and now you get to here it!' has a video with the title about the Cybertruck. It seems they are booked out enough that new orders won't be delivered 'till 2032.
NHTSA assumes the value of human life is $10 million.
Something for the dear readers to keep in mind. Back in the Bush the Greater reign an attempt was made to 'lower the value' of a life because of age. The reason was to then be able to justify cuts to social programs for older people. This came on my radar after a new clutch of congresskritters were hatched and floated a trial balloon of cuts yet again. Something to remember for the next time.
I am sufficiently educated in human psychology to form informed opinions on the people who want to purchase and drive Tesla vehicles, and hoo boy.
Hoo boy what? Is this a reaction to seeing the Ford e-transit with a 100 mile range starting at $59K, dropping to $58K 2 months later and then to $38K last month and then asking 'where ARE there charging stations' along a 300 mile one way trip and figuring out for the last 150 miles there are no charges listed beyond chargers at car dealers and the public ones otherwise are Tesla branded? (the search result was enough for the e-transit to stop being considered even before checking the insurance rates here.) Or noting past comments about non-Tesla chargers being broken VS the Tesla charge network having regular maintenance?
Or perhaps the increased insurance cost of EVs and how just a simple bottoming out of an EV can result in the car being considered scrap is the hoo boy moment?
posted by rough ashlar at 8:40 AM on December 28, 2023
Years ago you could get a car that had hand cranked windows and the little fold out glass on the window for ventilation. The car with manual systems was thousands less than the ones with power windows/power locks/air conditioning.
Now not only do you have the added expense of power windows and air conditioning as standard the makers have added heated seats, motors to move the seat about, various radios (some so the car maker can obtain data about you to sell off to advertisers but sold to you as a safety benefit) and then the government mandate class of expenses.
By saying the automakers need to have anti-drunk driving methods in the car now you have driver facing cameras along with all the electronics and software to accomplish the goal of the government law. Those systems have development costs and get added into the cost of your car. When you go to the dealer - That's not a creepy thing, no. The camera is so the car can use your face so your radio preloads and customized temperature settings will be active.
*IF* the car makers figure out AI enough to get the Musk marketing of full self driving then that sensor package and the AI will be added into car costs because that'll end up like power steering, power windows and air conditioning.
I don’t see how Tesla is going to be able to sustain itself going forward. and And Musk says the future of Tesla will be their humanoid robots...
Part of the problem with Tesla is what is the business of Tesla? Cars? AI? Future robot? The solar bailout of his brother? Backstopping people who want to show their popular xits off?
*IF* the Tesla custom AI chips develop a use case along with the robot that will far exceed what he could ever do with cars. If the solar roofs were as awesome as pitchman Musk was 1st saying that market could exceed cars. If Tesla manages to have a battery chemistry/manufacturing method that was better then others that could exceed the tesla car market.
Those forward looking ideas gets some stock market investors willing to bid up the price. And any of the above could make Tesla as a corporation very well off.
Interesting, as in 2014 Tesla was getting top Consumer Reports rankings. Not the case today if you look at the same source.
The rankings have shifted for a whole lotta brands. Same with repair cost. I do not consider it reasonable to have to remove the engine to replace a starter. Having to remove the front wheel and then the plastic wheel well to replace the 12V battery is at least able to be done under the shade of a tree even if I consider that not reasonable. Timing belts/chains and the effort to replace it at the maintenance window is another consideration. That source of truth - youtube - has a rant about a truck engine that was stretched almost the length of a chain link at under 40K miles, how much of the engine parts had to be pulled to get at the timing chain, and how the project was at a halt due to a wore sprocket being at least 1/2 a month out. Few auto makers are "good" it would seem.
Proxies for how good a car is would be time on the lot. It seems some Jeeps are over 700 days.
Tesla's recent sharing of 48V plans for cars is another head scratcher.ystem.
Not at all. The desire to cut down on copper in cars was a thing over 2 decades ago when it was proposed. This was proposed when high current iCs were becoming mainstream.
Some new cars have a 36V system.
I see three clouds in Tesla's future:
#2 - the Cybertruck is as bad as it seems, doesn't catch on, and their other new models are equally off-point
Youtube, the evergreen source of 'I have an opinion and now you get to here it!' has a video with the title about the Cybertruck. It seems they are booked out enough that new orders won't be delivered 'till 2032.
NHTSA assumes the value of human life is $10 million.
Something for the dear readers to keep in mind. Back in the Bush the Greater reign an attempt was made to 'lower the value' of a life because of age. The reason was to then be able to justify cuts to social programs for older people. This came on my radar after a new clutch of congresskritters were hatched and floated a trial balloon of cuts yet again. Something to remember for the next time.
I am sufficiently educated in human psychology to form informed opinions on the people who want to purchase and drive Tesla vehicles, and hoo boy.
Hoo boy what? Is this a reaction to seeing the Ford e-transit with a 100 mile range starting at $59K, dropping to $58K 2 months later and then to $38K last month and then asking 'where ARE there charging stations' along a 300 mile one way trip and figuring out for the last 150 miles there are no charges listed beyond chargers at car dealers and the public ones otherwise are Tesla branded? (the search result was enough for the e-transit to stop being considered even before checking the insurance rates here.) Or noting past comments about non-Tesla chargers being broken VS the Tesla charge network having regular maintenance?
Or perhaps the increased insurance cost of EVs and how just a simple bottoming out of an EV can result in the car being considered scrap is the hoo boy moment?
posted by rough ashlar at 8:40 AM on December 28, 2023
Boy was I wrong about that!
Yeah, this thread is kind of hilarious in light of that chart. It's almost like vaccine injuries level of cognitive dissonance. Tesla is literally a top 10 selling car in the US, and no other electric car is even close. The hybrid Wrangler is number 2 in California (biggest EV state) at 1/10 the sales of Tesla's top car! Did anyone guess that?
Do you personally know anyone who says their brand new Tesla 'is shoddily made?" judging from this thread you should know quite a few, right?
The only piece of data that is kind of comparable in the actual article is this one:
"Tesla owners have filed about 260 complaints with NHTSA over suspension and steering problems this year, compared to about 750 for General Motors and 230 for Toyota.... "
Well again, GM and Toyota might sell more cars worldwide, but Tesla is right up there with them with them in sales in the US for top models (models below top 10 barely sell at all - again look at the chart - Mazda CX-V90 has sold less than 1000 cars. So judging from those numbers they are pretty much in-line, maybe slightly higher but not by much. Blazer EV: 1 sale in California. LOL. The article compares NHTSA complaints vs the entire world sales. That's shoddy journalism.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:42 AM on December 28, 2023
Yeah, this thread is kind of hilarious in light of that chart. It's almost like vaccine injuries level of cognitive dissonance. Tesla is literally a top 10 selling car in the US, and no other electric car is even close. The hybrid Wrangler is number 2 in California (biggest EV state) at 1/10 the sales of Tesla's top car! Did anyone guess that?
Do you personally know anyone who says their brand new Tesla 'is shoddily made?" judging from this thread you should know quite a few, right?
The only piece of data that is kind of comparable in the actual article is this one:
"Tesla owners have filed about 260 complaints with NHTSA over suspension and steering problems this year, compared to about 750 for General Motors and 230 for Toyota.... "
Well again, GM and Toyota might sell more cars worldwide, but Tesla is right up there with them with them in sales in the US for top models (models below top 10 barely sell at all - again look at the chart - Mazda CX-V90 has sold less than 1000 cars. So judging from those numbers they are pretty much in-line, maybe slightly higher but not by much. Blazer EV: 1 sale in California. LOL. The article compares NHTSA complaints vs the entire world sales. That's shoddy journalism.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:42 AM on December 28, 2023
And again, GM vs Tesla or Toyota is really comparing issues with gas powered drive trains (of heavy duty pickups and SUVs) because that is the majority of Toyota and GM's sales in the US, not vs the electric cars that don't sell jack.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:48 AM on December 28, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:48 AM on December 28, 2023
seems they are booked out enough that new orders won't be delivered 'till 2032.
Orders that are refundable till build date, based on practically no production models let alone history of durability and are on a wait list that is extended because Tesla isn't actually building the thing in quantity yet.
posted by Mitheral at 8:56 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Orders that are refundable till build date, based on practically no production models let alone history of durability and are on a wait list that is extended because Tesla isn't actually building the thing in quantity yet.
posted by Mitheral at 8:56 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Youtube, the evergreen source of 'I have an opinion and now you get to here it!' has a video with the title about the Cybertruck. It seems they are booked out enough that new orders won't be delivered 'till 2032.
Wow. Definitive.
I'm agreeing with Mitheral.
It costs all of $100 to get a spot on the reservation list. A few million have, starting in 2019. The majority of those will not become purchasers. Many initially serious folk are backing out because of the elevated price. It's still unknown whether Tesla can get the production volume up, let alone quality. And the Elon Factor.
Most important, the Cybertruck hasn't been available for long enough in serious numbers to generate a broader consensus. They lost me from the get-go; its obscene. My ideal e-truck would be small, simple, efficient, reliable and affordable. It would have several levels, from a stripped down short range urban delivery platform for trades and businesses, to a longer-range hauler for the boat/RV crowd. (We've seen several smaller e-trucks in Europe that I'd sooner have.)
If Ford or Toyota can soon get to market with an electric pickup.... look out.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:15 AM on December 28, 2023
Wow. Definitive.
I'm agreeing with Mitheral.
It costs all of $100 to get a spot on the reservation list. A few million have, starting in 2019. The majority of those will not become purchasers. Many initially serious folk are backing out because of the elevated price. It's still unknown whether Tesla can get the production volume up, let alone quality. And the Elon Factor.
Most important, the Cybertruck hasn't been available for long enough in serious numbers to generate a broader consensus. They lost me from the get-go; its obscene. My ideal e-truck would be small, simple, efficient, reliable and affordable. It would have several levels, from a stripped down short range urban delivery platform for trades and businesses, to a longer-range hauler for the boat/RV crowd. (We've seen several smaller e-trucks in Europe that I'd sooner have.)
If Ford or Toyota can soon get to market with an electric pickup.... look out.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:15 AM on December 28, 2023
If Ford or Toyota can soon get to market with an electric pickup.... look out.
Ford has had one for quite some time, based on the F150. But if you mean a smaller truck (like Ranger- or Maverick-based), anything like that is still TBD.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ford has had one for quite some time, based on the F150. But if you mean a smaller truck (like Ranger- or Maverick-based), anything like that is still TBD.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
> It seems they are booked out enough that new orders won't be delivered 'till 2032.
I like the Electric Viking a lot but he's wrong on that. Tons of $100 preorders but not $100k Foundation orders out to 2032. Makes sense for Tesla to prioritize 4680s for Model Y tho so we may see a very low run rate from the Cybertruck line.
(Which also went into why I bought the Model Y yesterday but I'm not supposed to talk about that here)
Toyota did recently preview a very nice all-electric truck. I think I'd rather have a Model Y and an electric Tacoma in the garage vs my 2018 LEAF and a Cybertruck, that's for sure.
posted by torokunai at 9:40 AM on December 28, 2023
I like the Electric Viking a lot but he's wrong on that. Tons of $100 preorders but not $100k Foundation orders out to 2032. Makes sense for Tesla to prioritize 4680s for Model Y tho so we may see a very low run rate from the Cybertruck line.
(Which also went into why I bought the Model Y yesterday but I'm not supposed to talk about that here)
Toyota did recently preview a very nice all-electric truck. I think I'd rather have a Model Y and an electric Tacoma in the garage vs my 2018 LEAF and a Cybertruck, that's for sure.
posted by torokunai at 9:40 AM on December 28, 2023
Basically, the EV market is soft right now (and will be for a year or so) because the industry is currently undergoing a shake out as everyone agrees to switch over to NACS. This shake out is going exceptionally quickly (SAE just released their finalized NACS specification a couple of weeks ago, less than a year since Tesla released the specification to the wild, for an idea of how it's going) as this sort of thing goes, but anyone who is looking for an EV and can wait for native NACS vehicles is going to.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on December 28, 2023
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on December 28, 2023
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml shows BEVs getting the full $7500 tax credit are few and far between right now.
Lyric, Bolt, F-150 with dealer shenanigans, ID.4s and Teslas.
Manchin really threw a curve ball at the entire industry last year.
posted by torokunai at 10:13 AM on December 28, 2023
Lyric, Bolt, F-150 with dealer shenanigans, ID.4s and Teslas.
Manchin really threw a curve ball at the entire industry last year.
posted by torokunai at 10:13 AM on December 28, 2023
My experiences with Teslas—several now—sure are not at all like the tales in this article. I haven’t had anything other than a couple minor problems.The gas tanks of literally millions of Ford Pintos did not explode.
posted by Flunkie at 10:22 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The existence of a video on Youtube doesn't make "Youtube" the actual source of the video. Or lend it any credibility. The entire spectrum of possible opinion on Teslas (and Musk) can be found on YT.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:27 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:27 PM on December 28, 2023
>My experiences with Teslas—several now—sure are not at all like the tales in this article. I haven’t had anything other than a couple minor problems.
>>The gas tanks of literally millions of Ford Pintos did not explode.
Actually, funnily enough, this comes closest to the truth.
Statistically, the Pinto did not have a fatality rate higher than other makes of vehicles. NHTSA statistics show 27 deaths over 2 million vehicles, as also stated by another poster above.
In the second Pinto trial (1978), which Ford won, they had gathered enough statistical evidence to present the following
- 1.9% of all cars on the road were Pintos
- Pintos were involved in 1.9% of all fatal accidents accompanied by fire
While on the surface that seems like the Pinto breaks even with other makes of cars, a closer look at the statistics shows that subcompacts have a higher rate of car fires than other vehicles, and so when compared on a like-for-like basis against other subcompacts, the Pinto actually performed better than its competitors.
These statistics were not contested by the prosecution and were confirmed by the prosecution's expert witness.
An even further dive into the statistics isolating only rear end collisions resulting in fatal fires in subcompacts (and not just fires in general) shows the Pinto performing worse than some brands (Toyota, Vega, etc) but still better than others (Gremlin). In summary, you would be safer in the Pinto than the average subcompact on the road at the time.
-- Gary T. Schwartz, The Myth of the Ford Pinto Case, 43 RUTGERS L. REV. 1013 (1991)
Schwartz is considered one of the preeminent tort scholars of his generation.
posted by xdvesper at 3:09 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
>>The gas tanks of literally millions of Ford Pintos did not explode.
Actually, funnily enough, this comes closest to the truth.
Statistically, the Pinto did not have a fatality rate higher than other makes of vehicles. NHTSA statistics show 27 deaths over 2 million vehicles, as also stated by another poster above.
In the second Pinto trial (1978), which Ford won, they had gathered enough statistical evidence to present the following
- 1.9% of all cars on the road were Pintos
- Pintos were involved in 1.9% of all fatal accidents accompanied by fire
While on the surface that seems like the Pinto breaks even with other makes of cars, a closer look at the statistics shows that subcompacts have a higher rate of car fires than other vehicles, and so when compared on a like-for-like basis against other subcompacts, the Pinto actually performed better than its competitors.
These statistics were not contested by the prosecution and were confirmed by the prosecution's expert witness.
An even further dive into the statistics isolating only rear end collisions resulting in fatal fires in subcompacts (and not just fires in general) shows the Pinto performing worse than some brands (Toyota, Vega, etc) but still better than others (Gremlin). In summary, you would be safer in the Pinto than the average subcompact on the road at the time.
-- Gary T. Schwartz, The Myth of the Ford Pinto Case, 43 RUTGERS L. REV. 1013 (1991)
Schwartz is considered one of the preeminent tort scholars of his generation.
posted by xdvesper at 3:09 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ford to Slow F-150 Lightning Production. The Demand Just Isn’t There.
I guess the lesson here is that it's not simply a matter of building yesterday's cars with tomorrow's electric drive; there has to be a greater change, both in the types of vehicles offered (... smaller and more efficient to get the price down and range up), and in our expectations about use. On the latter subject, our first EV purchase will be an electric bike.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:12 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cumulatively, Ford F-150 Lightning sales are at about 36,000 units. Ford is likely to hit about 40,000 by the end of 2023. That’s roughly 10,000 to 15,000 less than the company projected in August....apparently price and low range are the holdbacks.
Demand doesn’t appear to be materializing. Instead of selling about 8,000 a month, Ford is selling closer to 4,000. Ford wanted to ramp production up to about 12,000 F-150 Lightning trucks per month. Now Ford appears to be targeting closer to 6,000.
I guess the lesson here is that it's not simply a matter of building yesterday's cars with tomorrow's electric drive; there has to be a greater change, both in the types of vehicles offered (... smaller and more efficient to get the price down and range up), and in our expectations about use. On the latter subject, our first EV purchase will be an electric bike.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:12 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
...apparently price and low range are the holdbacks.
That, and the fact that no EV buyer that's half aware of what's going on wants to be locked into CCS, even if you can use an adapter.
Like it amazes me that analysts can't figure out that EV demand is going to be quite soft until the first native NACS models come out in 2025.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
That, and the fact that no EV buyer that's half aware of what's going on wants to be locked into CCS, even if you can use an adapter.
Like it amazes me that analysts can't figure out that EV demand is going to be quite soft until the first native NACS models come out in 2025.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m on the bus on the way to pick up my “native NACS” BEV right now : )
I was interested in getting a CNG fueled F-250 for RV duties last decade, but the CNG fueling situation is pretty dire now.
The Munro teardown of the lightning cooled my interest even before the CCS issue arose this year.
Rivian is nice but I’d rather get a Tacoma for half the cost.
posted by torokunai at 5:51 PM on December 28, 2023
I was interested in getting a CNG fueled F-250 for RV duties last decade, but the CNG fueling situation is pretty dire now.
The Munro teardown of the lightning cooled my interest even before the CCS issue arose this year.
Rivian is nice but I’d rather get a Tacoma for half the cost.
posted by torokunai at 5:51 PM on December 28, 2023
Geez I’m the only person on the bus, too, at 6pm
In Japan this would be unthinkable,
$1 fare, too! So cheap!
posted by torokunai at 5:55 PM on December 28, 2023
In Japan this would be unthinkable,
$1 fare, too! So cheap!
posted by torokunai at 5:55 PM on December 28, 2023
'picture me trollin' (in my NACS BEV)'
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
if they had kept the two card keys in the car I could have taken delivery w/o interacting with anyone. I paired my phone to the car, clicked the blue button on my phone, and I was good to go!
The SG&A overhead of this operation is a small, small fraction of the Nissan dealer not too terribly far away. Kinda great I didn't have a single minute wasted in the whole buying process (100% done via the Tesla app on my phone), but on the otherhand that's why Elon is worth $200B or whatever: the Tesla/Lucid/Rivian no-dealer business model is super disruptive to a very inefficient big, big industry.
posted by torokunai at 7:34 PM on December 28, 2023
The SG&A overhead of this operation is a small, small fraction of the Nissan dealer not too terribly far away. Kinda great I didn't have a single minute wasted in the whole buying process (100% done via the Tesla app on my phone), but on the otherhand that's why Elon is worth $200B or whatever: the Tesla/Lucid/Rivian no-dealer business model is super disruptive to a very inefficient big, big industry.
posted by torokunai at 7:34 PM on December 28, 2023
My friend the Tesla-owner has to drive 2 hours to get ANY service on his car, so the no-dealer model isn't all roses.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:00 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by Artful Codger at 8:00 PM on December 28, 2023
the Tesla/Lucid/Rivian no-dealer business model is super disruptive to a very inefficient big, big industry.
Given that Tesla is currently contracting with dealerships in order to ride on their repair capacity because the company's repair and service network is woefully inadequate (and that's before getting into the issues highlighted in the OP), it seems like that disruption isn't all that it's cracked up to be, especially considering you're going to have a lot more contacts for repair and service over buying a vehicle.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:01 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given that Tesla is currently contracting with dealerships in order to ride on their repair capacity because the company's repair and service network is woefully inadequate (and that's before getting into the issues highlighted in the OP), it seems like that disruption isn't all that it's cracked up to be, especially considering you're going to have a lot more contacts for repair and service over buying a vehicle.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:01 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
US new car sales are ~15M x ~$50K per = $750B, about what our DOD spending was in 2016.
posted by torokunai at 9:57 AM on December 29, 2023
posted by torokunai at 9:57 AM on December 29, 2023
If you are a woman, a minority, or visibly LGBTQ+, the disruption to the car dealership business model is extremely, extremely valuable, and was also a factor in our decision to purchase a second Tesla. I will never purchase a vehicle that requires me to deal with car salesmen and their financing departments ever again.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
If you are a woman, a minority, or visibly LGBTQ+, let me tell you something: the disruption to the car dealership business model is extremely, extremely valuable, and was also a factor in our decision to purchase a second Tesla.
My memory is that this was why Saturn was such a popular brand with women for a long time, because of the brand's no-bargaining approach.
Right now I'm half-assedly dithering on whether or not to start shopping for a new vehicle at some point this coming year, and the whole hassle with needing to deal with dealerships and put a bunch of effort into haggling, all just to get to the price we both know we will end up at, is just so off-putting. And I'm a cisgendered white dude who is perfectly comfortable bargaining, but it is such a stupid and wasteful process. If I could easily buy from an app or with a phone call, I'd probably already be shopping.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:38 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
My memory is that this was why Saturn was such a popular brand with women for a long time, because of the brand's no-bargaining approach.
Right now I'm half-assedly dithering on whether or not to start shopping for a new vehicle at some point this coming year, and the whole hassle with needing to deal with dealerships and put a bunch of effort into haggling, all just to get to the price we both know we will end up at, is just so off-putting. And I'm a cisgendered white dude who is perfectly comfortable bargaining, but it is such a stupid and wasteful process. If I could easily buy from an app or with a phone call, I'd probably already be shopping.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:38 AM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I will never purchase a vehicle that requires me to deal with car salesmen and their financing departments ever again.
Yes, it's not a fun process. FWIW from buying 7 or 8 vehicles (of which two were new), here's some tips:
- set your budget. Don't forget taxes, licencing, insurance, and a maintenance allowance
- self-finance. If you don't have cash, prearrange financing with your bank or credit union, so you have this in hand when ready to purchase.
- do your price comparisons online and over the phone. It's my experience that dealerships don't have much price wiggle-room on new cars, especially at the lower-price end of the spectrum, so don't expect that you can haggle yourself a huge savings. You have more leverage if it's a car that's been on their lot for a while, but then again it may already be discounted. As you research prices, this will become clear.
- don't fall in love with a particular vehicle (or just visit one dealership). Have a short-list of candidate vehicles that fall within your budget, and carefully evaluate the merits of each.
- DO NOT take their rustproofing, alarms, maintenance plans and other sales add-ons. They are invariably overpriced. Buy them after you've had the vehicle for a short while. If you're in the snow belt, and you are going to keep the vehicle for several years, regular oilspraying is a Good Thing
- if the sales process intimidates you, ask a knowledgeable bad-ass friend to come with you. Bonus points if they're lawyers.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:53 PM on December 29, 2023
Yes, it's not a fun process. FWIW from buying 7 or 8 vehicles (of which two were new), here's some tips:
- set your budget. Don't forget taxes, licencing, insurance, and a maintenance allowance
- self-finance. If you don't have cash, prearrange financing with your bank or credit union, so you have this in hand when ready to purchase.
- do your price comparisons online and over the phone. It's my experience that dealerships don't have much price wiggle-room on new cars, especially at the lower-price end of the spectrum, so don't expect that you can haggle yourself a huge savings. You have more leverage if it's a car that's been on their lot for a while, but then again it may already be discounted. As you research prices, this will become clear.
- don't fall in love with a particular vehicle (or just visit one dealership). Have a short-list of candidate vehicles that fall within your budget, and carefully evaluate the merits of each.
- DO NOT take their rustproofing, alarms, maintenance plans and other sales add-ons. They are invariably overpriced. Buy them after you've had the vehicle for a short while. If you're in the snow belt, and you are going to keep the vehicle for several years, regular oilspraying is a Good Thing
- if the sales process intimidates you, ask a knowledgeable bad-ass friend to come with you. Bonus points if they're lawyers.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:53 PM on December 29, 2023
I will never purchase a vehicle that requires me to deal with car salesmen and their financing departments ever again.
I have not negotiated with a dealer in the last 20 years of car buying. We simply shop on the internet for the car we want at the price we want, print it out and take the print out to the nearest dealership. If they do anything other than say, yes we have that/they can get it, we walk and go the next dealership, or by the car from the dealership we found online and pay the delivery cost.
posted by herda05 at 1:48 PM on December 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
I have not negotiated with a dealer in the last 20 years of car buying. We simply shop on the internet for the car we want at the price we want, print it out and take the print out to the nearest dealership. If they do anything other than say, yes we have that/they can get it, we walk and go the next dealership, or by the car from the dealership we found online and pay the delivery cost.
posted by herda05 at 1:48 PM on December 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Tesla cars are poorly assembled from good parts.
Those fucking door handles. Entering or leaving. Christ what a dumb way to disrupt a solved problem.
Do you personally know anyone who says their brand new Tesla 'is shoddily made?"
Begging for a syllogism?
posted by aspersioncast at 6:21 PM on December 29, 2023
Those fucking door handles. Entering or leaving. Christ what a dumb way to disrupt a solved problem.
Do you personally know anyone who says their brand new Tesla 'is shoddily made?"
Begging for a syllogism?
posted by aspersioncast at 6:21 PM on December 29, 2023
In Europe there are car buying websites available I had good experience with. You simply choose the brand, model and features you want. Then you wait as offers come in from various dealerships. Choose the best one, take the offer to the dealer and pick up the car when it's ready.
Is there something like that in the US?
It's essentially what herda05 described above but saves you the effort of visiting several dealerships.
posted by UN at 6:49 PM on December 29, 2023
Is there something like that in the US?
It's essentially what herda05 described above but saves you the effort of visiting several dealerships.
posted by UN at 6:49 PM on December 29, 2023
I am pretty sure members of Consumer Reports in the United States can get the service UN describes as part of their membership.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:24 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 7:24 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
In Europe there are car buying websites available I had good experience with. You simply choose the brand, model and features you want. Then you wait as offers come in from various dealerships. Choose the best one, take the offer to the dealer and pick up the car when it's ready.
Costco has an auto program. I took a look at it when I was last shopping; at that time at least, what it did was give you the contact information for a participating dealership, and from that point it is between you and the dealer, who is supposed to offer you whatever the current agreed-upon program discount. I ended up going a different direction, but it all seemed straightforward and the price offered was not terrible. It does not get you multiple dealers competing against each other or anything like that, it just gets you the program price with very little friction.
I think that True Car and a few other websites offer more what you are describing, but I don't think any have reached wide adoption. No one I know of has used one, as far as I know, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:08 AM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Costco has an auto program. I took a look at it when I was last shopping; at that time at least, what it did was give you the contact information for a participating dealership, and from that point it is between you and the dealer, who is supposed to offer you whatever the current agreed-upon program discount. I ended up going a different direction, but it all seemed straightforward and the price offered was not terrible. It does not get you multiple dealers competing against each other or anything like that, it just gets you the program price with very little friction.
I think that True Car and a few other websites offer more what you are describing, but I don't think any have reached wide adoption. No one I know of has used one, as far as I know, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:08 AM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
>Those fucking door handles
I call them door prongs, yes.
posted by torokunai at 12:27 PM on December 30, 2023
I call them door prongs, yes.
posted by torokunai at 12:27 PM on December 30, 2023
Good? News on that front. The cybertruck doesn't have exterior door handles.
posted by Mitheral at 1:28 PM on December 30, 2023
posted by Mitheral at 1:28 PM on December 30, 2023
open the clod bay doors pal
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:43 PM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:43 PM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
In Europe there are car buying websites available I had good experience with. You simply choose the brand, model and features you want. Then you wait as offers come in from various dealerships. Choose the best one, take the offer to the dealer and pick up the car when it's ready.
This is also an option in the US, and was the most common suggestion in the "how to buy a car" articles I read. (I just went to Honda.com and got 4 quotes from local dealers who had the model I wanted in stock)
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:57 PM on December 30, 2023
This is also an option in the US, and was the most common suggestion in the "how to buy a car" articles I read. (I just went to Honda.com and got 4 quotes from local dealers who had the model I wanted in stock)
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:57 PM on December 30, 2023
So, the whole reason the dealership model has persisted (because there's a lot of reasons why it's a pain in the ass for the manufacturers and customers) isn't in their sales departments, but in their parts and service ones. The system has allowed car makers to build out a support network for their vehicles on the (relative) cheap for the manufacturers, which in turn means that (at least for the major brands) a car owner has a good likelihood of having a local mechanic available to sort their car out with manufacturer support.
Which is the part that Tesla fell short on when they decided to bring sales back inside the company, because it turns out that you can't centralize repairs especially after the consumer base has been accultured for a century to the opposite. Even without the issues documented in the OP, they've struggled with being able to provide repair capacity in a timely and cost-effective manner, which is further exacerbated by their tight vertical integration excluding independent mechanics as well. Which is why they wound up having to contract with dealerships to provide that last mile capability.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:41 AM on December 31, 2023
Which is the part that Tesla fell short on when they decided to bring sales back inside the company, because it turns out that you can't centralize repairs especially after the consumer base has been accultured for a century to the opposite. Even without the issues documented in the OP, they've struggled with being able to provide repair capacity in a timely and cost-effective manner, which is further exacerbated by their tight vertical integration excluding independent mechanics as well. Which is why they wound up having to contract with dealerships to provide that last mile capability.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:41 AM on December 31, 2023
So, the whole reason the dealership model has persisted (because there's a lot of reasons why it's a pain in the ass for the manufacturers and customers) isn't in their sales departments, but in their parts and service ones.
In addition, there are a lot of state laws prohibiting direct sales by manufacturers. Tesla has found work-arounds in most cases but I don't know that it would scale up well, as well as the impact you describe of trying to remove one piece of the sales/service/parts model, each of which depends on the other.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:53 AM on December 31, 2023
In addition, there are a lot of state laws prohibiting direct sales by manufacturers. Tesla has found work-arounds in most cases but I don't know that it would scale up well, as well as the impact you describe of trying to remove one piece of the sales/service/parts model, each of which depends on the other.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:53 AM on December 31, 2023
I saw a Rivian the other day, and I realized I'm completely indifferent to the brand because I know next to nothing about them. Maybe it's run by a fascist techbro asshole, or maybe there are techbro asshole edgelords who buy them. I wouldn't know!
Maybe Tesla could learn a thing or two from them.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:24 AM on January 2
Maybe Tesla could learn a thing or two from them.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:24 AM on January 2
It at least looks like a functioning truck.
And I love the 'Little Orphan Annie eyes' headlights.
posted by MtDewd at 8:19 AM on January 3
And I love the 'Little Orphan Annie eyes' headlights.
posted by MtDewd at 8:19 AM on January 3
Chinese automaker BYD overtook Tesla as the world’s top seller of electric vehicles at the end of 2023.
They were first a battery-maker, so they have a leg up there. Warren Buffett has invested in them. I'm assuming that protectionist measures will continue to keep Chinese EV makers out of the N American market, but if we're serious about a faster transition to EVs, these lower-cost suppliers with their more affordable and practical models have to be considered. Just electrifying oversized N American vehicles isn't going to be sustainable, long-term.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:54 AM on January 3
They were first a battery-maker, so they have a leg up there. Warren Buffett has invested in them. I'm assuming that protectionist measures will continue to keep Chinese EV makers out of the N American market, but if we're serious about a faster transition to EVs, these lower-cost suppliers with their more affordable and practical models have to be considered. Just electrifying oversized N American vehicles isn't going to be sustainable, long-term.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:54 AM on January 3
IIRC Canada isn't as protectionist as the USA but we normally get all the same cars in large part because of emissions and our market isn't large enough to target separate from the states. Battery vehicles step over that so just things like safety and equipment regulation remain. Be interesting if we start seeing manufacturers selling cars here and not down south because of that lower hurdle.
posted by Mitheral at 9:20 AM on January 3
posted by Mitheral at 9:20 AM on January 3
China is by far the world's largest EV market. 5.9M EVs were sold in China; compare 2.6M in Europe, 1M in the US. BYD isn't just lower-cost, they're also highly innovative and expert at making electric cars. (Other large Chinese EV sellers: SAIC-GM-Wuling, Geely, and yes, Tesla).
The Chinese cars tend to be made for the Chinese market; less expensive, smaller. Tesla's main innovation was building larger, heavier, more expensive EVs that sell well in the US (and worldwide, to the wealthy). This situation we're in right now in the US where most EVs start at $50,000 is weird and counterproductive.
Unfortunately the US-China trade war definitely is impeding the EV market in the US. The Biden Administration has created enormous government subsidies and investment for electrification. But it's come with a hefty dose of American trade protectionism. Related: More EVs lose US tax credits including Tesla, Nissan, GM vehicles. The hope is that in a few years this will stimulate more US manufacture of EVs. But it definitely shuts BYD and other Chinese companies out of the US market.
posted by Nelson at 9:20 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
The Chinese cars tend to be made for the Chinese market; less expensive, smaller. Tesla's main innovation was building larger, heavier, more expensive EVs that sell well in the US (and worldwide, to the wealthy). This situation we're in right now in the US where most EVs start at $50,000 is weird and counterproductive.
Unfortunately the US-China trade war definitely is impeding the EV market in the US. The Biden Administration has created enormous government subsidies and investment for electrification. But it's come with a hefty dose of American trade protectionism. Related: More EVs lose US tax credits including Tesla, Nissan, GM vehicles. The hope is that in a few years this will stimulate more US manufacture of EVs. But it definitely shuts BYD and other Chinese companies out of the US market.
posted by Nelson at 9:20 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
Apparently build woes aren't just for Teslas: More bad buzz for Chevy Blazer EV: software glitches, doors that fly open
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:47 AM on January 3
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:47 AM on January 3
IIRC Canada isn't as protectionist as the USA [on vehicles]
The big automakers have assembly plants and suppliers in Canada, so when they get displeased with anything Canada's doing, they have tons of leverage with which to indicate their displeasure.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:39 AM on January 3
The big automakers have assembly plants and suppliers in Canada, so when they get displeased with anything Canada's doing, they have tons of leverage with which to indicate their displeasure.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:39 AM on January 3
The Autopian has a writeup up on how differing mandates and incentives are already influencing differences in Canadian (EG: continued sales of the Mazda MX-30 in Canada but no longer sold in the US) vs American model availability with a bunch of reasoned speculation on how that could 'weird' the Canadian market but also how it could could affect the used market in both countries.
posted by Mitheral at 7:52 PM on January 17
posted by Mitheral at 7:52 PM on January 17
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Been pricing out various Model 3s and a LR Y available for delivery this week, to beat the loss of the $7500 IRA tax credit 1/1. But interest on the 6-year loan basically eats the $10k in gov't rebates I'd get, so the acquisition cost still ranges between $40k (M3 LFP) to $50K (LR Y).
Cars are too expensive, man. The payment on the Model Y would be $800/mo out to 2030; happy I only had to pay $15.5k over 6 years for my 2018 LEAF, it's almost paid off now.
Think I'll sit out 2024 to see what's coming in 2025, with the new J3400 (née "NACS") equipped BEVs start coming out from everyone.
Pretty cheap to grab the occasional Model 3 rental from Hertz at least. Have a LR sitting in the driveway now for just $180 for the week.
posted by torokunai at 9:27 PM on December 26, 2023 [6 favorites]