"The wealth of the wicked is laid up for the righteous"
February 22, 2024 8:34 PM Subscribe
A Marketplace of Girl Influencers Managed by Moms and Stalked by Men The troubling interactions on Instagram come as social media companies increasingly dominate the cultural landscape and the internet is seen as a career path of its own. Nearly one in three preteens list influencing as a career goal, and 11 percent of those born in Generation Z, between 1997 and 2012, describe themselves as influencers. Content warning: Instagram Child Pornography
But the pursuit of online fame, particularly through Instagram, has supercharged the often toxic phenomenon, The Times found, encouraging parents to commodify their children’s images. Some of the child influencers earn six-figure incomes, according to interviews.
But the pursuit of online fame, particularly through Instagram, has supercharged the often toxic phenomenon, The Times found, encouraging parents to commodify their children’s images. Some of the child influencers earn six-figure incomes, according to interviews.
Was just about the post the same brain-melting quote.
posted by gottabefunky at 8:53 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 8:53 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
This is the same grossness as pageants. It should be illegal to exploit your kid this way.
posted by emjaybee at 9:17 PM on February 22 [13 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:17 PM on February 22 [13 favorites]
Still, many of the would-be influencers suffer. In some instances criticism of the posts, and accompanying bullying, becomes so severe that mothers turn to home-schooling.But her numbers!
“She got slaughtered all through primary school,” said Kaelyn, the mother in Melbourne. “Children were telling her, ‘We can’t play with you because my mom said too many perverts follow you on the internet.’”
Be reasonable. This line isn't going to go up all by itself, now is it?
posted by flabdablet at 9:21 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Wow, this is so much worse than I thought it was going to be (because even completely innocent photos of girls and young women can attract total psychos).
“She got slaughtered all through primary school,” said Kaelyn, the mother in Melbourne. “Children were telling her, ‘We can’t play with you because my mom said too many perverts follow you on the internet.’”
No, lady, they didn't let their kids play with yours because you're a deranged fucking pimp who raised a daughter who can't imagine any career but sex worker. I would feel sorry for the kid, but I wouldn't let my own child anywhere near this woman.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 PM on February 22 [28 favorites]
“She got slaughtered all through primary school,” said Kaelyn, the mother in Melbourne. “Children were telling her, ‘We can’t play with you because my mom said too many perverts follow you on the internet.’”
No, lady, they didn't let their kids play with yours because you're a deranged fucking pimp who raised a daughter who can't imagine any career but sex worker. I would feel sorry for the kid, but I wouldn't let my own child anywhere near this woman.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 PM on February 22 [28 favorites]
I'm not sure who're the bigger monsters here. The pedos or the mothers prostituting their daughters to them.
QAnon nutjobs get worked up about the (repeatedly and resoundingly proved bogus) trafficking of children in containers, etc., but this reality is so banal, and yet no less sickening.
posted by microscone at 9:41 PM on February 22 [12 favorites]
QAnon nutjobs get worked up about the (repeatedly and resoundingly proved bogus) trafficking of children in containers, etc., but this reality is so banal, and yet no less sickening.
posted by microscone at 9:41 PM on February 22 [12 favorites]
KC Davis (mental health professional and author) did a 2-episode series on her podcast, Struggle Care, this winter that I found informative and utterly fascinating: The Dark Underside of Family Vlogging, Part 1 and Part 2. I highly recommend.
posted by pril at 9:44 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
posted by pril at 9:44 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I am left wondering how to rank the shittiness of the various actors: the male followers with diseased minds; the parents trying to justify doing this to their children; and Meta as usual evading its responsibilities.
These poor kids.
posted by senor biggles at 9:46 PM on February 22 [14 favorites]
These poor kids.
posted by senor biggles at 9:46 PM on February 22 [14 favorites]
The bigger monster is Facebook, just as it has been from day 1.
posted by flabdablet at 9:53 PM on February 22 [42 favorites]
Meta, Instagram’s parent company, found that 500,000 child Instagram accounts had “inappropriate” interactions every day, according to an internal study in 2020 quoted in legal proceedings.Emphasis mine. Pedos really juice those engagement numbers. Protecting them from parents is important, goddammit.
In a statement to The Times, Andy Stone, a Meta spokesman, said that parents were responsible for the accounts and their content and could delete them anytime.
“Anyone on Instagram can control who is able to tag, mention or message them, as well as who can comment on their account,” Mr. Stone added, noting a feature that allows parents to ban comments with certain words. “On top of that, we prevent accounts exhibiting potentially suspicious behavior from using our monetization tools, and we plan to limit such accounts from accessing subscription content.”
...
Meta failed to act on multiple reports made by parents and even restricted those who tried to police their own followers, according to interviews and materials provided by the parents.
If parents block too many followers’ accounts in a day, Meta curtails their ability to block or follow others, they said.
“I remember being told, like, I’ve reached my limit,” said a mother of two dancers in Arizona who declined to be named. “Like what? I reached my limit of pedophiles for today. OK, great.”
Mr. Stone, the Meta spokesman, said “there are lots of reasons an account might face limitations or restrictions based the account’s activity,” and therefore it was difficult to know why parents encountered these problems.
posted by flabdablet at 9:53 PM on February 22 [42 favorites]
The shit I saw working at a major online platform dedicated to family entertainment and our little worlds that we set up convinced me firmly that if I ever had a kid (I didn't), they'd pretty much think the Internet was a made up thing for as long as I could because good lord people.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:02 PM on February 22 [10 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:02 PM on February 22 [10 favorites]
I’m sorry for everything
Is there some tidy phrase that is to apologies as "crocodile tears" is to grief?
posted by flabdablet at 10:02 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Is there some tidy phrase that is to apologies as "crocodile tears" is to grief?
posted by flabdablet at 10:02 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Super appreciate the description box placeholders, a good design choice.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:09 PM on February 22 [35 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:09 PM on February 22 [35 favorites]
Indeed. Given the existence of sick fucks, making them jump through the hoop of pasting those descriptions into Dall-E sure sounds like it should reduce harm to the specific children whose pictures they so thoroughly yet concisely describe.
Remains to be seen what collateral damage will flow from that plus reverse image search, though.
posted by flabdablet at 10:15 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Remains to be seen what collateral damage will flow from that plus reverse image search, though.
posted by flabdablet at 10:15 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
JFC that was more awful than I imagined.
posted by LarryC at 10:43 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
posted by LarryC at 10:43 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
Like many parents, Elissa, who received the threatening messages about her daughter’s photos, said she protected her daughter by handling the account exclusively herself. Ultimately, she concluded, the Instagram community is dominated by “disgusting creeps,” but she nonetheless keeps the account up and running. Shutting it down, she said, would be “giving in to bullies.”
Yes, don't give in to the 'bullies', instead keep making and posting borderline child porn to keep them happy and engaged. That's definitely winning over the 'bullies'.
posted by Dysk at 11:29 PM on February 22 [27 favorites]
Yes, don't give in to the 'bullies', instead keep making and posting borderline child porn to keep them happy and engaged. That's definitely winning over the 'bullies'.
posted by Dysk at 11:29 PM on February 22 [27 favorites]
Trying to say this with as little snark as I can: what's the Venn diagram like with these Instagram parents and parents who make lengthy Facebook posts thinking their kids were about to be trafficked in the Target parking lot? Or parents moaning about drag shows?
I'm relieved that none of the emojis in this piece included a pizza slice or whatever the Qanon people are saying is the super secret signal these days, but I'd be truly shocked if none of these parents were Q-leaning (or at least sympathetic to it) and just truly dgaf about the actual threats in their kids' lives.
posted by knotty knots at 11:42 PM on February 22 [13 favorites]
I'm relieved that none of the emojis in this piece included a pizza slice or whatever the Qanon people are saying is the super secret signal these days, but I'd be truly shocked if none of these parents were Q-leaning (or at least sympathetic to it) and just truly dgaf about the actual threats in their kids' lives.
posted by knotty knots at 11:42 PM on February 22 [13 favorites]
So many mentions of the mothers. Hardly any of the fathers. What's up with that?
posted by Zumbador at 12:05 AM on February 23 [21 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 12:05 AM on February 23 [21 favorites]
I'm not sure who're the bigger monsters here. The pedos or the mothers prostituting their daughters to them.
¿Por que no los dos?
posted by chavenet at 12:56 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
¿Por que no los dos?
posted by chavenet at 12:56 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
What's up with that?
Zuckerberg isn't a mother.
posted by flabdablet at 1:40 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
Zuckerberg isn't a mother.
posted by flabdablet at 1:40 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
What percentage of these mothers are Mormon?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:08 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:08 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
From the article:
“In retrospect I feel like such a stupid mom, but I’m not stupid,” said a mother of a young gymnast, who dealt with similar men before she realized they were predators and received threatening messages from several of them. “I didn’t understand what grooming was.”
Emphasis mine. I'm just going to leave that there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:39 AM on February 23 [8 favorites]
“In retrospect I feel like such a stupid mom, but I’m not stupid,” said a mother of a young gymnast, who dealt with similar men before she realized they were predators and received threatening messages from several of them. “I didn’t understand what grooming was.”
Emphasis mine. I'm just going to leave that there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:39 AM on February 23 [8 favorites]
Sick and pathetic
posted by DJZouke at 5:00 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by DJZouke at 5:00 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
Some parents are the driving force behind the sale of … the girls’ worn leotards and cheer outfits to mostly unknown followers.
Just when I think my opinion of humanity can’t get much lower, I come across this. What is wrong with these parents?
posted by TedW at 5:19 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
Just when I think my opinion of humanity can’t get much lower, I come across this. What is wrong with these parents?
posted by TedW at 5:19 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
“In responding or even hitting ‘like’ on it, it boosts your algorithm,” said a mother in Florida whose 16-year-old daughter has been an Instagram influencer for six years. “We tried shutting comments off at one point, and some of the brands didn’t like that.”In a heaping pile of horrific and disturbing facts, the thing that keeps getting to me is how it would be relatively easy to reduce the power these men have on these social media sites. Allow accounts to turn off comments so they can't find each other. Put more effort into identifying and controlling the bots they use to boost their followers and look "legitimate". Turn off the algorithms that prioritise noise over presence. But brands like comments and follower counts because it means more space in the algorithm, more advertising power and money for them, so it will never happen.
This has been an obvious outcome for a long time. Pageant culture and child brides in the Bible belt feeding through to the Duggars and YouTube families famous for exploiting their children, and now it's become glossy and acceptable because everyone's an influencer, and children are starting to do it themselves through TikTok and Snapchat because they haven't been taught any better and nobody's interested in protecting them.
Also, per the comment about moms not understanding what grooming means -- plenty of them do. Plenty of them are well aware of the audience they're encouraging, and they don't give a shit. The ones who don't have a responsibility to learn. Just because they're moms doesn't mean they can't be held accountable for the ways they're abusing their children in order to make money and be popular.
posted by fight or flight at 5:25 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
“You’re such a naughty sick mom, you’re just as sick as us pedophiles,” read another. “I will make your life hell for you and your daughter.”
The literal worst of the internet, right there.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:40 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
The literal worst of the internet, right there.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:40 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
The percentage of sociopaths among us is about 4-5% and though I am not sure how many sociopaths are parents, it's pretty clear that a lot of these parents are just fine with exploiting their kids in any way possible for money.
The only way to stop it is to legally force the social media sites to stop conveying to the pedophiles. The tragedy is that there's no money in this. All the financial incentives are opposed to moral and ethical justice. The sites don't want it. The brands don't want it. The pedos don't want it. The moms don't want it.
The kids need someone else to act for them.
This is what child protection laws are for, not for naming ivf embryos people.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:47 AM on February 23 [22 favorites]
The only way to stop it is to legally force the social media sites to stop conveying to the pedophiles. The tragedy is that there's no money in this. All the financial incentives are opposed to moral and ethical justice. The sites don't want it. The brands don't want it. The pedos don't want it. The moms don't want it.
The kids need someone else to act for them.
This is what child protection laws are for, not for naming ivf embryos people.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:47 AM on February 23 [22 favorites]
So many mentions of the mothers. Hardly any of the fathers. What's up with that?
In the comments one of the journalists says that of the hundreds of accounts they looked at, only a "handful" were done by the fathers.
posted by dobbs at 6:04 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
In the comments one of the journalists says that of the hundreds of accounts they looked at, only a "handful" were done by the fathers.
posted by dobbs at 6:04 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure who're the bigger monsters here. The pedos or the mothers prostituting their daughters to them.
In at least some of the situations described, it was an openly symbiotic relationship. In others, it was just sort of tacit. Either way, it's a two way dynamic between the purveyor and buyer, with the kid dangled as bait in the middle, and the social media companies encouraging and profiting off of it all.
Super gross.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
In at least some of the situations described, it was an openly symbiotic relationship. In others, it was just sort of tacit. Either way, it's a two way dynamic between the purveyor and buyer, with the kid dangled as bait in the middle, and the social media companies encouraging and profiting off of it all.
Super gross.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:35 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
In the comments one of the journalists says that of the hundreds of accounts they looked at, only a "handful" were done by the fathers.
Thank you, I hadn't seen that.
But even if the account is being managed by the mother, presumably at least some of these girls have living fathers that are at least aware of what's going on?
Why are we hardly mentioning them at all?
posted by Zumbador at 6:50 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
Thank you, I hadn't seen that.
But even if the account is being managed by the mother, presumably at least some of these girls have living fathers that are at least aware of what's going on?
Why are we hardly mentioning them at all?
posted by Zumbador at 6:50 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
Why are we hardly mentioning them at all?
Why do they need to be mentioned? They're either actively involved in the accounts and what their wife/partner is doing (in which case they're equally responsible), or they can't do anything about it for legal or other reasons, or they're not involved at all and can't do anything to stop it anyway. The real story is the fact that these children are being used, sold, groomed and abused by their parents, whoever they are, and the lack of online safeguarding that not only allows it but actively encourages it.
posted by fight or flight at 7:11 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
Why do they need to be mentioned? They're either actively involved in the accounts and what their wife/partner is doing (in which case they're equally responsible), or they can't do anything about it for legal or other reasons, or they're not involved at all and can't do anything to stop it anyway. The real story is the fact that these children are being used, sold, groomed and abused by their parents, whoever they are, and the lack of online safeguarding that not only allows it but actively encourages it.
posted by fight or flight at 7:11 AM on February 23 [3 favorites]
People, people, people - think of the MONEY. That money’s not going to generate itself. Some of these parents are able to quit their jobs and just -what’s the word I’m looking for? - mercilessly exploit their kids for a couple years and the house is paid off. And who among us wouldn’t do this if we were simply taking photos of a plant? Or your dog? I mean what’s the difference? And so what if these kids grow up to have some minor issues? That’s what the money is for, right? 100,000 fans at $10/month is $1M a month, and I’m guessing the sites take a slice, but we’re still taking six figures a month for the parents. We’re not selling drugs here or harming anyone (except the kid). Wasn’t there just a post about “the ones who walk away from Omelas”? And we’re not even physically harming the kid. And soon, if not now, we’ll have AI generated versions of this so why not cash in when the market demand is there? Who is really getting hurt here and isn’t that what the money is for?
/sarcasm_off
I couldn’t finish the article. Let’s just set up a site for Moloch dedicated to this stuff and the worship of guns. I read somewhere that chronically depressed people view reality more accurately but some days I think the causality goes the other way.
posted by Farce_First at 7:14 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
/sarcasm_off
I couldn’t finish the article. Let’s just set up a site for Moloch dedicated to this stuff and the worship of guns. I read somewhere that chronically depressed people view reality more accurately but some days I think the causality goes the other way.
posted by Farce_First at 7:14 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
Why are we hardly mentioning them at all?
At least some fathers show up in the gross comment sections, so there's that.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:14 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
At least some fathers show up in the gross comment sections, so there's that.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:14 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
[Instagram] is also home to a longstanding network of parents and brands that predated TikTok.It’s unusual to have a sentence where I’m having to think about whether someone just decided not to hyphenate pre-dated, or actually meant predated.
posted by pulposus at 7:21 AM on February 23 [25 favorites]
Allow accounts to turn off comments so they can't find each other.
You can turn off comments, but the article mentions that the brands that provide the attire and the fig leaf of justifying the accounts as fashion modelling instead of child sexual abuse don't like that.
There's a push-pull in feminism between 'putting girls in revealing clothes is sexualizing them and we shouldn't do that' and 'girls should be able to wear what they like and if you think it's sexual that's because you're a pedo' and I think this article demonstrates the ways in which pedophiles are at least partially driving the revealing clothing and that it isn't just innocent choices of what girls like. The popular influencers who set trends for performance wear are being influenced by what their audience wants and that audience includes a lot of pedos.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:30 AM on February 23 [20 favorites]
You can turn off comments, but the article mentions that the brands that provide the attire and the fig leaf of justifying the accounts as fashion modelling instead of child sexual abuse don't like that.
There's a push-pull in feminism between 'putting girls in revealing clothes is sexualizing them and we shouldn't do that' and 'girls should be able to wear what they like and if you think it's sexual that's because you're a pedo' and I think this article demonstrates the ways in which pedophiles are at least partially driving the revealing clothing and that it isn't just innocent choices of what girls like. The popular influencers who set trends for performance wear are being influenced by what their audience wants and that audience includes a lot of pedos.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:30 AM on February 23 [20 favorites]
> The percentage of sociopaths among us is about 4-5% ...
This overstates things by a factor of PANIC!!!1.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8374040/
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:33 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
This overstates things by a factor of PANIC!!!1.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8374040/
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:33 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
“Children were telling her, ‘We can’t play with you because my mom said too many perverts follow you on the internet.’”
What's worst is, I can understand this. It would be rotten and cruel to slut-shame a child, but what if this girl had stalkers who showed up when she was playing with her friends? Assaulted them, kidnapped them, or even just took pictures that got posted everywhere?
The only comfort I find is that some of this horror isn't entirely new. Mothers have been selling their children since money was invented. But it's pretty new that a mother would be so goddamn naive that she's surprised that her daughter thinks she was born to be a [sex worker] now and there's nothing else to her. Who would have taught her otherwise?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:33 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
What's worst is, I can understand this. It would be rotten and cruel to slut-shame a child, but what if this girl had stalkers who showed up when she was playing with her friends? Assaulted them, kidnapped them, or even just took pictures that got posted everywhere?
The only comfort I find is that some of this horror isn't entirely new. Mothers have been selling their children since money was invented. But it's pretty new that a mother would be so goddamn naive that she's surprised that her daughter thinks she was born to be a [sex worker] now and there's nothing else to her. Who would have taught her otherwise?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:33 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
Why do they need to be mentioned? They're either actively involved in the accounts and what their wife/partner is doing (in which case they're equally responsible), or they can't do anything about it for legal or other reasons, or they're not involved at all and can't do anything to stop it anyway. The real story is the fact that these children are being used, sold, groomed and abused by their parents, whoever they are, and the lack of online safeguarding that not only allows it but actively encourages it.
There's a huge culture of blaming mothers for everything involved in parenting, and while the mothers may run these accounts, the fathers are benefitting from them and are either encouraging or ignoring what the mothers are doing, and I actually do think it would be important and useful to place some of the blame on the fathers instead of just on the mothers who do the actual day-to-day of running the accounts.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:34 AM on February 23 [39 favorites]
There's a huge culture of blaming mothers for everything involved in parenting, and while the mothers may run these accounts, the fathers are benefitting from them and are either encouraging or ignoring what the mothers are doing, and I actually do think it would be important and useful to place some of the blame on the fathers instead of just on the mothers who do the actual day-to-day of running the accounts.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:34 AM on February 23 [39 favorites]
You got me there, jacquilynne. I assumed there weren't any fathers to speak of, or that the fathers were complicit or apathetic, so they don't appear. Even for a lousy father who knew himself to be that, it would reflect badly on his masculinity to have a daughter who was treated as public property, so he would probably prefer to hide.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:39 AM on February 23
posted by Countess Elena at 7:39 AM on February 23
I actually do think it would be important and useful to place some of the blame on the fathers
I think attempting to derail things by saying, repeatedly, "how can we find some way to blame fathers for this" is at best unhelpful, and at worst feels like a concentrated effort to diminish the obvious (and freely admitted!) actions of the moms involved. Like, can we maybe focus on the people actually running the accounts for one moment.
posted by fight or flight at 7:44 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
I think attempting to derail things by saying, repeatedly, "how can we find some way to blame fathers for this" is at best unhelpful, and at worst feels like a concentrated effort to diminish the obvious (and freely admitted!) actions of the moms involved. Like, can we maybe focus on the people actually running the accounts for one moment.
posted by fight or flight at 7:44 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
One 12-year-old girl in Maryland, who spoke with The Times alongside her mother, described the thrill of seeing other girls she knows wear a brand she represents in Instagram posts.
“People are actually being influenced by me,” she said.
...
“I have reservations about a child feeling like they have to satisfy either adults in their orbit or strangers who are asking something from them,” said Sally Theran, a professor at Wellesley College and clinical psychologist who studies online relationships. “It’s really hard to give consent to that when your frontal lobe isn’t fully developed.”
posted by box at 7:45 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
“People are actually being influenced by me,” she said.
...
“I have reservations about a child feeling like they have to satisfy either adults in their orbit or strangers who are asking something from them,” said Sally Theran, a professor at Wellesley College and clinical psychologist who studies online relationships. “It’s really hard to give consent to that when your frontal lobe isn’t fully developed.”
posted by box at 7:45 AM on February 23 [7 favorites]
Shocking that so many people feel free to comment on these pictures with their (overtly real name or traceable to them IRL) Instagram accounts and using their credit cards to buy premium-tier memberships.
Also, feel free to blame the fathers. Any excuse they might give for allowing this is no excuse at all. It's not something that gets perpetrated while they are working double shifts, nor is it anything that any child custody order would keep them from stopping. (Could you imagine how quickly any judge would hand over custody when the Instagram pictures and comment were displayed on the courtroom video?)
posted by MattD at 7:53 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
Also, feel free to blame the fathers. Any excuse they might give for allowing this is no excuse at all. It's not something that gets perpetrated while they are working double shifts, nor is it anything that any child custody order would keep them from stopping. (Could you imagine how quickly any judge would hand over custody when the Instagram pictures and comment were displayed on the courtroom video?)
posted by MattD at 7:53 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
If you think asking what the fathers are up to in all of this is a derail I guess I can't convince you otherwise but I think it is an important part of the story that isn't actually in the story.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:56 AM on February 23 [26 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:56 AM on February 23 [26 favorites]
I think attempting to derail things by saying, repeatedly, "how can we find some way to blame fathers for this" is at best unhelpful
Hey so you're talking about my comments, and I didn't actually say this bit that you quoted ?
jacquilynne expressed my concerns much more articulately than I did. It's not a derail to ask why, in an article (and a comment thread) about terrible parenting, we're almost only mentioning the mothers? Genuine question! Not a code for "Hey the fathers are the ones we should be blaming".
posted by Zumbador at 8:06 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
Hey so you're talking about my comments, and I didn't actually say this bit that you quoted ?
jacquilynne expressed my concerns much more articulately than I did. It's not a derail to ask why, in an article (and a comment thread) about terrible parenting, we're almost only mentioning the mothers? Genuine question! Not a code for "Hey the fathers are the ones we should be blaming".
posted by Zumbador at 8:06 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
I looked at TFA and finally bailed about 80% of the way through. I guess if your country has 335 million people in it, you'll have several hundred of whatever kind of one-in-a-million people you can name, and 10,000s of people who are in the 0.01% on whatever variable you can measure. Including "lack of consideration of the consequences for their kids."
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:06 AM on February 23
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:06 AM on February 23
Also, I am completely at a loss trying to deconstruct how OP chose the post title.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:09 AM on February 23
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:09 AM on February 23
The post title is a quote from the article, quite a shocking one, somewhere in the middle so perhaps you didn't quite make it to 80%.
posted by ch1x0r at 8:21 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
posted by ch1x0r at 8:21 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
> The percentage of sociopaths among us is about 4-5% ...
This overstates things by a factor of PANIC!!!1.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8374040/
Reading the linked article, general surveys do result in 4.5%. If you use the "gold standard" PCL-R you get 1.2%, but PCL-R is designed to determine release of criminals. Your score goes up if you have prior criminal convictions; in effect, it requires *both sociopathy* and *inability to mask it* in order to pass the PCL-R test (at 30/40 points you need almost all scores to be 2 - and lack of time in juvie is 2 points off the top!)
posted by NotAYakk at 8:22 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
This overstates things by a factor of PANIC!!!1.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8374040/
Reading the linked article, general surveys do result in 4.5%. If you use the "gold standard" PCL-R you get 1.2%, but PCL-R is designed to determine release of criminals. Your score goes up if you have prior criminal convictions; in effect, it requires *both sociopathy* and *inability to mask it* in order to pass the PCL-R test (at 30/40 points you need almost all scores to be 2 - and lack of time in juvie is 2 points off the top!)
posted by NotAYakk at 8:22 AM on February 23 [4 favorites]
From the article:
Between this, the "Dear Hollywood" podcast, and recent interviews on "The Financial Diet" on YT, I kinda feel like images and videos of children just shouldn't be available on the internet, movies, or tv. Its bad for the kids performing, its bad for the kids watching, and there's no reason for adults to seek any of it out.
posted by Is It Over Yet? at 8:23 AM on February 23 [13 favorites]
Dean Stockton, who runs a small clothing company in Florida called Original Hippie, often features girls from the Instagram accounts, who earn a commission when customers use personalized discount codes. After initially deleting many male followers, he now sees them as a way to grow the account and give it a wider audience because the platform rewards large followings.I'm no bible scholar but I don't think that verse means what he's convinced himself it means.
“The Bible says, ‘The wealth of the wicked is laid up for the righteous,’” he said. “So sometimes you got to use the things of this world to get you to where you need to be, as long as it’s not harming anybody.”
Between this, the "Dear Hollywood" podcast, and recent interviews on "The Financial Diet" on YT, I kinda feel like images and videos of children just shouldn't be available on the internet, movies, or tv. Its bad for the kids performing, its bad for the kids watching, and there's no reason for adults to seek any of it out.
posted by Is It Over Yet? at 8:23 AM on February 23 [13 favorites]
→
That award might go to the people who saw this and thought, “How can I make money from it?”
posted by scruss at 8:23 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
The literal worst of the internet, right there.
That award might go to the people who saw this and thought, “How can I make money from it?”
posted by scruss at 8:23 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
Look, we can compromise and agree that this shit should be illegal and both the mothers and fathers involved should be publicly executed.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:31 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:31 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
Selling your child is gross. Providing your child's image to pedophiles is especially so. Oh, it's so hard to stop. Yeah, because it's profitable. Stop sexualizing children. Stop exploiting children and any other vulnerable group. I couldn't read the whole article, as I was in danger of flinging my laptop out the window, but these parents are panderers, just as culpable as the sad fucked up pedophiles they sell to.
posted by theora55 at 8:32 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 8:32 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
For some answers to some of the questions that are coming up in this thread, one of the authors of the article,
Jennifer Valentino-DeVries, is responding to people in the chat of the article. I excluded the original questions, but you can guess them from the context of the response.
Here are some of her comments (so you don't need to read through all of them to find them):
@misscatherine Thanks for your question! In our reporting, we found that most parents do not actually get much money out of this. They see it, in some ways, as an expensive, fun hobby. Or, if their child wants to be in a certain industry such as professional dance, they view it as a resume of sorts. It’s only a very slim minority of accounts that are making a lot of money. But they all attract men that parents choose either to block, to allow, or to engage with.
@Jenny Oh, absolutely true. There were some quotes we had to cut for space from a professor at the University of Iowa, Meenakshi Gigi Durham. She said "girls' bodies are on display culturally for the public gaze in general, and it's often the male gaze while boys' bodies are not." And "there's a power differential in that difference in visibility."
@Karen Lee Hi Karen. The attire worn by many, if not most, of these children is specifically the attire from dance, cheerleading and gymnastics, which are activities in which the kids generally participate. They are often "ambassadors" for the companies that make that attire, meaning that the parents post photos of the child wearing that clothing in exchange for free or discounted products.
However, when it is posted online, the context is entirely different for anyone viewing it, which is something that studies have shown people who post online don't intuitively realize.
I don't know much about beauty pageants specifically, but in reporting this story I was struck by the adultified nature of the clothing for young girls that has become popular in these physical activities. It is part of a longterm trend toward skimpier clothing for girls, and one expert we spoke with pointed out the double standard for girls vs. boys in this regard, which I think is important.
@Carrie Hi Carrie. Thanks so much for your comment. I appreciate the criticism. I would love to make a couple of points, not in argument but just to think about.
In reporting this story, we found that a number of parents (not all) appeared to have been slowly groomed by these men over time. Now, can I explain why they didn't realize immediately that the men were lying? No, I cannot. But I think that this is often how grooming works — not only online but in real life.
Abusive people seek out those who are vulnerable for any number of reasons — financially, emotionally, and so forth.
I think that, in some respects, this entire system is working like a massive funnel for predators. Whereas prior to social media, a child abuser may have had to spend considerable effort on in-person activities to encounter someone vulnerable, now they can relatively quickly test many parents in this ecosystem until they find vulnerable ones.
I did often find myself completely shocked and baffled in reporting on this, so I understand what you're saying, but i also wanted to point out the grooming issue.
More broadly: My reporting and writing style on this was to let people tell their stories. There are always pros and cons to that sort of choice, but I thought it was important here.
@M_Rents This comment is a great description of the concept of “context collapse” online!
Parents whose children are in activities such as dance and cheerleading are very used to the attire worn there. And honestly, there’s nothing wrong with that attire. I would never want to say that a girl should be ashamed of what she is wearing.
But removing that images and putting it online takes it out of the context. This has long been considered an important issue in social media. You can’t control the context in which people online will view what you are posting.
posted by Toddles at 8:42 AM on February 23 [27 favorites]
Jennifer Valentino-DeVries, is responding to people in the chat of the article. I excluded the original questions, but you can guess them from the context of the response.
Here are some of her comments (so you don't need to read through all of them to find them):
@misscatherine Thanks for your question! In our reporting, we found that most parents do not actually get much money out of this. They see it, in some ways, as an expensive, fun hobby. Or, if their child wants to be in a certain industry such as professional dance, they view it as a resume of sorts. It’s only a very slim minority of accounts that are making a lot of money. But they all attract men that parents choose either to block, to allow, or to engage with.
@Jenny Oh, absolutely true. There were some quotes we had to cut for space from a professor at the University of Iowa, Meenakshi Gigi Durham. She said "girls' bodies are on display culturally for the public gaze in general, and it's often the male gaze while boys' bodies are not." And "there's a power differential in that difference in visibility."
@Karen Lee Hi Karen. The attire worn by many, if not most, of these children is specifically the attire from dance, cheerleading and gymnastics, which are activities in which the kids generally participate. They are often "ambassadors" for the companies that make that attire, meaning that the parents post photos of the child wearing that clothing in exchange for free or discounted products.
However, when it is posted online, the context is entirely different for anyone viewing it, which is something that studies have shown people who post online don't intuitively realize.
I don't know much about beauty pageants specifically, but in reporting this story I was struck by the adultified nature of the clothing for young girls that has become popular in these physical activities. It is part of a longterm trend toward skimpier clothing for girls, and one expert we spoke with pointed out the double standard for girls vs. boys in this regard, which I think is important.
@Carrie Hi Carrie. Thanks so much for your comment. I appreciate the criticism. I would love to make a couple of points, not in argument but just to think about.
In reporting this story, we found that a number of parents (not all) appeared to have been slowly groomed by these men over time. Now, can I explain why they didn't realize immediately that the men were lying? No, I cannot. But I think that this is often how grooming works — not only online but in real life.
Abusive people seek out those who are vulnerable for any number of reasons — financially, emotionally, and so forth.
I think that, in some respects, this entire system is working like a massive funnel for predators. Whereas prior to social media, a child abuser may have had to spend considerable effort on in-person activities to encounter someone vulnerable, now they can relatively quickly test many parents in this ecosystem until they find vulnerable ones.
I did often find myself completely shocked and baffled in reporting on this, so I understand what you're saying, but i also wanted to point out the grooming issue.
More broadly: My reporting and writing style on this was to let people tell their stories. There are always pros and cons to that sort of choice, but I thought it was important here.
@M_Rents This comment is a great description of the concept of “context collapse” online!
Parents whose children are in activities such as dance and cheerleading are very used to the attire worn there. And honestly, there’s nothing wrong with that attire. I would never want to say that a girl should be ashamed of what she is wearing.
But removing that images and putting it online takes it out of the context. This has long been considered an important issue in social media. You can’t control the context in which people online will view what you are posting.
posted by Toddles at 8:42 AM on February 23 [27 favorites]
This overstates things by a factor of PANIC!!!1.
There are plenty of gross, predatory assholes with zero impulse control that don’t meet the clinical definition of “sociopath”.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:50 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
There are plenty of gross, predatory assholes with zero impulse control that don’t meet the clinical definition of “sociopath”.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:50 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
what if the real problem was the capitalist hellscape that legitimates any kind of wealth extraction and accumulation while also forcing millions of people to live on the brink of poverty which forces them into desperate situations where they eventually feel compelled to exploit even their own children in horrible ways
I would imagine someone living comfortably probably has a far less likely (but not negligible, unfortunately) chance of grooming their own children for $
in terms of 'fault' I feel like I would rank the capitalist system first, social media companies profiting off of virtually unregulated content production second, and predatory adult consumers third before we move on to blaming the moms exploiting their own children but that may just be me
like if you're sitting on so many billions in venture cap that you can blow it all on a completely fruitless VR endeavor, you probably could've hired and trained a few thousand more content moderators and ethics researchers who can ban this kind of thing, right? god forbid you lose a few million in quarterly ad revenue for the sake of a few thousand children though, what a hard calculus that must be for you
posted by paimapi at 9:14 AM on February 23 [14 favorites]
I would imagine someone living comfortably probably has a far less likely (but not negligible, unfortunately) chance of grooming their own children for $
in terms of 'fault' I feel like I would rank the capitalist system first, social media companies profiting off of virtually unregulated content production second, and predatory adult consumers third before we move on to blaming the moms exploiting their own children but that may just be me
like if you're sitting on so many billions in venture cap that you can blow it all on a completely fruitless VR endeavor, you probably could've hired and trained a few thousand more content moderators and ethics researchers who can ban this kind of thing, right? god forbid you lose a few million in quarterly ad revenue for the sake of a few thousand children though, what a hard calculus that must be for you
posted by paimapi at 9:14 AM on February 23 [14 favorites]
This parenting style was spotlighted about a decade ago when child pageantry became mainstream entertainment. Narcissism comes up a lot in the discussions. This study suggests that narcissism is not only inherited, but cultivated in childhood.
posted by Brian B. at 9:31 AM on February 23
posted by Brian B. at 9:31 AM on February 23
I have a partner who is a practicing psychiatrist whose biggest pet peeve is when I or others start guessing what mental illness or personality disorder other people have in order to explain odd or anti-social behaviors
sometimes neurotypical people are weird or act horribly. sometimes that's because of environmental conditions, sometimes they just do it because... who knows!
it's a peeve of hers because very often people who do have mental illnesses and disorders don't do things that are judged to be irredeemably horrible. sometimes, actually very often times, they're actually more often victims of horrible actions done by totally mentally healthy (according to the DSM-V at least) people like, you know, CEOs and investment bankers
really wild idea, I know, to not throw the mental illness spaghetti at the wall of horrible human behaviors and hyperfixate on anything that might stick but let's try it out
posted by paimapi at 9:39 AM on February 23 [29 favorites]
sometimes neurotypical people are weird or act horribly. sometimes that's because of environmental conditions, sometimes they just do it because... who knows!
it's a peeve of hers because very often people who do have mental illnesses and disorders don't do things that are judged to be irredeemably horrible. sometimes, actually very often times, they're actually more often victims of horrible actions done by totally mentally healthy (according to the DSM-V at least) people like, you know, CEOs and investment bankers
really wild idea, I know, to not throw the mental illness spaghetti at the wall of horrible human behaviors and hyperfixate on anything that might stick but let's try it out
posted by paimapi at 9:39 AM on February 23 [29 favorites]
The attire worn by many, if not most, of these children is specifically the attire from dance, cheerleading and gymnastics, which are activities in which the kids generally participate. They are often "ambassadors" for the companies that make that attire, meaning that the parents post photos of the child wearing that clothing in exchange for free or discounted products.
However, when it is posted online, the context is entirely different for anyone viewing it, which is something that studies have shown people who post online don't intuitively realize.
See, this is what I thought the problem would be, as opposed to what it turned out to be. Because some pedophiles would get off looking at an image of a little girl in an innocent crew-neck one-piece swimsuit (of the kind I imagine many of us wore as children without incident) and a goofy bucket hat, so of course kids repping gymnastics brands in leotards and the like would attract predators and it would be a constant struggle to keep them away. I just...didn't think there'd be so many mothers out there trying to attract them.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
However, when it is posted online, the context is entirely different for anyone viewing it, which is something that studies have shown people who post online don't intuitively realize.
See, this is what I thought the problem would be, as opposed to what it turned out to be. Because some pedophiles would get off looking at an image of a little girl in an innocent crew-neck one-piece swimsuit (of the kind I imagine many of us wore as children without incident) and a goofy bucket hat, so of course kids repping gymnastics brands in leotards and the like would attract predators and it would be a constant struggle to keep them away. I just...didn't think there'd be so many mothers out there trying to attract them.
posted by praemunire at 9:39 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
I also immediately thought of child beauty pageants and wonder if they were attended by pedos in the same way these instagram accounts are mobbed by them.
posted by macrael at 9:59 AM on February 23
posted by macrael at 9:59 AM on February 23
I also immediately thought of child beauty pageants and wonder if they were attended by pedos in the same way these instagram accounts are mobbed by them.
I'm sure to some extent? But again, it's a matter of scale and friction. To attend a child beauty pageant, a creepo would need to either live near one or really commit to finding and traveling to them, and then when a person is just hanging around a venue not affiliated with any parents or kids there, someone is likely to be like, hey, wtf dude, get out. It's a lot of effort and a lot of risk. Following an instagram account is zero effort and very minimal, if any, risk. I mean what are you risking, possibly getting blocked from one account? Possibly getting your account locked? Infinitely solvable.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:07 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
I'm sure to some extent? But again, it's a matter of scale and friction. To attend a child beauty pageant, a creepo would need to either live near one or really commit to finding and traveling to them, and then when a person is just hanging around a venue not affiliated with any parents or kids there, someone is likely to be like, hey, wtf dude, get out. It's a lot of effort and a lot of risk. Following an instagram account is zero effort and very minimal, if any, risk. I mean what are you risking, possibly getting blocked from one account? Possibly getting your account locked? Infinitely solvable.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:07 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
I have two daughters. The oldest is 8. All of this makes me blind with rage.
Our culture is sick enough, as it is, and I often feel like I'm drowning just trying to beat everything back far enough for them to be kids. At liberty to do kid stuff. Think kid thoughts, have fun, embrace childhood.
The idea of pushing them into this kind of thing activates violent parts of my brain.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:26 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
Our culture is sick enough, as it is, and I often feel like I'm drowning just trying to beat everything back far enough for them to be kids. At liberty to do kid stuff. Think kid thoughts, have fun, embrace childhood.
The idea of pushing them into this kind of thing activates violent parts of my brain.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:26 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
I was struck by the adultified nature of the clothing for young girls that has become popular in these physical activities. It is part of a longterm trend toward skimpier clothing for girls, and one expert we spoke with pointed out the double standard for girls vs. boys in this regard, which I think is important.
On one hand, yes, girls should be able to wear whatever they want and it's the online sexualization that is the issue. On the other hand, where do those "wants" come from and why are they so different for girls and boys?
I'll be totally honest, I find some of the dance and athletic wear and performances that I see (when passing through various public spaces that host these events) pretty shocking. I know I'm an old, but when I see a little kid dressed in clothing that would be nightclub wear on a grown woman and performing to music with extremely frank lyrics, I am pretty offput. If it's the girls having fun at home imitating music videos, fine, one thing that girls do is explore various kinds of adult behavior, but the institutionalization of it, the vast array of pre-made sexualized costumes to buy, etc, really gives me the creeps.
Grown women only wear really revealing clothes and dance to sexually explicit music in specific contexts, not in the middle of the convention center at noon on a Saturday. It's little girls, teens and tweens where there's this whole "dance" industry that involves public performance for passing randos.
posted by Frowner at 10:35 AM on February 23 [34 favorites]
On one hand, yes, girls should be able to wear whatever they want and it's the online sexualization that is the issue. On the other hand, where do those "wants" come from and why are they so different for girls and boys?
I'll be totally honest, I find some of the dance and athletic wear and performances that I see (when passing through various public spaces that host these events) pretty shocking. I know I'm an old, but when I see a little kid dressed in clothing that would be nightclub wear on a grown woman and performing to music with extremely frank lyrics, I am pretty offput. If it's the girls having fun at home imitating music videos, fine, one thing that girls do is explore various kinds of adult behavior, but the institutionalization of it, the vast array of pre-made sexualized costumes to buy, etc, really gives me the creeps.
Grown women only wear really revealing clothes and dance to sexually explicit music in specific contexts, not in the middle of the convention center at noon on a Saturday. It's little girls, teens and tweens where there's this whole "dance" industry that involves public performance for passing randos.
posted by Frowner at 10:35 AM on February 23 [34 favorites]
God, I just rabbit-trailed that Dean Stockton guy, the source of the Bible quote from the title of the post.
I can't stand it - his facebook posts are so obviously marketing to online pedophiles. His "evangelical ministry" is also disgusting. It goes on, and on, and on, until you're reminded of the old meme, "Hello, Whole Man Disposal Service? Yes, the entire man."
And then I felt a moment of kinship with Jesus Christ. Because, Jesus Christ, to the very bottom of the ocean with all of it.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:57 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
I can't stand it - his facebook posts are so obviously marketing to online pedophiles. His "evangelical ministry" is also disgusting. It goes on, and on, and on, until you're reminded of the old meme, "Hello, Whole Man Disposal Service? Yes, the entire man."
And then I felt a moment of kinship with Jesus Christ. Because, Jesus Christ, to the very bottom of the ocean with all of it.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:57 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
I think this makes a good case for using AI to automatically delete any photograph posted to a public account that is contains a child in 20% or more of the image. If social media accounts can't handle the task of moderation, a blunt force like that is perhaps the only way to prevent harm.
It's easy to be critical of the parents, and the small percentage that are actively courting adult male clients are pretty reprehensible, but after reflecting a bit after finishing the article (and reading the author's follow-up comments in the comment section) I can imagine how some parents might see themselves as just going along with the flow. It's good to consider who these parents are - likely mostly older millennials - Gen X, who enjoyed most if not all of their childhoods off-line. They sign their girl up for dance class, she becomes friends with a girl who has her own Instagram account, now their girl is asking them to set up an account for her and they think, "Ok, why not, I guess if other kids are doing it...."
I'm reminded of a statistic I heard the other day (and yes, all stats need to be taken with a grain of salt) that only 20% of Americans check the news on a daily basis. As people who are fairly online (and I think that's fair to assume of Mefites), I think it's easy to underestimate how ignorant the average American is, which I don't say with any snobbery - just that a lot of people have lives that are consumed by work + household management + childcare + TV. I totally believe a good chunk of these moms genuinely don't know about grooming or what a cesspool the Internet can be.
I would imagine someone living comfortably probably has a far less likely (but not negligible, unfortunately) chance of grooming their own children for $
I wish the reporting got into the class angle more, but my sense from the article (and the fact that these girls are mostly serious dancers/gymnasts), that the families involved in this are mostly middle class to rich. This part from the article seemed to suggest this:
posted by coffeecat at 11:49 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
It's easy to be critical of the parents, and the small percentage that are actively courting adult male clients are pretty reprehensible, but after reflecting a bit after finishing the article (and reading the author's follow-up comments in the comment section) I can imagine how some parents might see themselves as just going along with the flow. It's good to consider who these parents are - likely mostly older millennials - Gen X, who enjoyed most if not all of their childhoods off-line. They sign their girl up for dance class, she becomes friends with a girl who has her own Instagram account, now their girl is asking them to set up an account for her and they think, "Ok, why not, I guess if other kids are doing it...."
I'm reminded of a statistic I heard the other day (and yes, all stats need to be taken with a grain of salt) that only 20% of Americans check the news on a daily basis. As people who are fairly online (and I think that's fair to assume of Mefites), I think it's easy to underestimate how ignorant the average American is, which I don't say with any snobbery - just that a lot of people have lives that are consumed by work + household management + childcare + TV. I totally believe a good chunk of these moms genuinely don't know about grooming or what a cesspool the Internet can be.
I would imagine someone living comfortably probably has a far less likely (but not negligible, unfortunately) chance of grooming their own children for $
I wish the reporting got into the class angle more, but my sense from the article (and the fact that these girls are mostly serious dancers/gymnasts), that the families involved in this are mostly middle class to rich. This part from the article seemed to suggest this:
In interviews, parents defended spending the money to promote their daughters’ influencer ambitions, describing them as extracurricular activities that build confidence, develop friendships and create social media résumés that will follow them into adulthood.I mean, I could be wrong, but my hunch is that parents who are worried about make sure their kids are actively developing resumes and who "don't get left behind" in the world of self-promotion are at least middle class, are are probably mostly upper-middle/low-level rich.
“It’s like a little security blanket,” said a New Jersey mother whose mom-run account has led to paid modeling jobs for her daughter and invitations to work with sought-after choreographers. “She can help pay for college if she does it right,” she said.
A mother in Alabama said parents couldn’t ignore the reality of this new economy.
“Social media is the way of our future, and I feel like they’ll be behind if they don’t know what’s going on,” the mother said. “You can’t do anything without it now.” [Emphasis added]
posted by coffeecat at 11:49 AM on February 23 [9 favorites]
Part of my company is protecting kids from the fallout of this (I work with a risk management firm, and have my own tech and identity protection consulting practice) and I'm here if anyone has any questions.
posted by lextex at 11:54 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
posted by lextex at 11:54 AM on February 23 [10 favorites]
Can we just focus AI art on making pictures for these creeps who are attracted to kids? And let actual children be kids and not use them for profit?
posted by luckynerd at 11:57 AM on February 23
posted by luckynerd at 11:57 AM on February 23
God, I just rabbit-trailed that Dean Stockton guy, the source of the Bible quote from the title of the post.
I can't stand it - his facebook posts are so obviously marketing to online pedophiles.
I spent a very pleasant 20 minutes this morning copying and pasting his quote from the article and a link to it into the comments of a number of the Facebook posts.
For the post he had in which he sounds like he is smiting Satan, I posted a series of Bible quotes about hypocrites and posted a link to the article.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:30 PM on February 23 [10 favorites]
I nearly gave up on the story and the human race right here:
Also - briefly putting on the former reporter/always journo critic hat -- we often slag the NY Times here for its BS bothsides-ism and fascism-coddling. Which is fair. Just remember that they devoted a fuckton of reporter time and money to this story, which literally no other media outlet in America would do. Win some, lose some.
posted by martin q blank at 1:49 PM on February 23 [22 favorites]
Some parents are the driving force behind the sale of photos, exclusive chat sessions and even the girls’ worn leotards and cheer outfits to mostly unknown followers. The most devoted customers spend thousands of dollars nurturing the underage relationships.I'm the father of two teenagers (boys, thank heavens, so they're nowhere near the pedo targets these poor girls are) and I just ... grrrr.... who the fuck would do such a thing with their child? Blind, spitting rage right here.
Also - briefly putting on the former reporter/always journo critic hat -- we often slag the NY Times here for its BS bothsides-ism and fascism-coddling. Which is fair. Just remember that they devoted a fuckton of reporter time and money to this story, which literally no other media outlet in America would do. Win some, lose some.
posted by martin q blank at 1:49 PM on February 23 [22 favorites]
Just remember that they devoted a fuckton of reporter time and money to this story
And I've got to believe that doing the reporting on this piece was difficult for the entire team. I hope they received appropriate support.
posted by praemunire at 2:09 PM on February 23 [16 favorites]
And I've got to believe that doing the reporting on this piece was difficult for the entire team. I hope they received appropriate support.
posted by praemunire at 2:09 PM on February 23 [16 favorites]
I clicked on this to read it and knew that I would want to undergo immediate brain erasure for having read about vile men, idiotic and/or greedy mothers, and children who don't know any better but have been told through social media that this is a career path.
God, I feel sick.
posted by Kitteh at 2:15 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
God, I feel sick.
posted by Kitteh at 2:15 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
Can we just focus AI art on making pictures for these creeps who are attracted to kids? And let actual children be kids and not use them for profit?
If you pay for AI image generators to make images of children, those generators are scraping free images of children, and children's images are still being used for profit.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:48 PM on February 23 [7 favorites]
If you pay for AI image generators to make images of children, those generators are scraping free images of children, and children's images are still being used for profit.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:48 PM on February 23 [7 favorites]
Did anyone here watch the reality show series on Hulu about TikTok child star Charli D’amelio? I watched with my kid (as she has her own dreams about being a YouTuber just like I thought I would be Molly Ringwald someday) to see what her take was. It was an interesting show, I only watched the first season. She and her older sister were in a lot of psychic pain from the pressure of being in the public eye. Her parents moved the whole family to a seriously bomb-ass house in L.A. to focus on her opportunities. She was miserable through the whole show. Her parents are totally weird “fitness people”. Her Dad’s a total bro. All the women and girls have those long, clacky nails. The older sister definitely suffers from depression and an eating disorder. They are getting in and out of very expensive SUVs constantly and dressed in the most expensive and plush of jogger ath-leisure ware. And to be fair, she is shown making her own fashion line, makeup line, dance wear, has her own dance studio with a personal trainer, famous friends and exciting drama. Money, whether for the necessities or the luxuries, is a powerful motivator. Other aspirational fields with huge inexplicable fandom: sports, acting, politics!
posted by amanda at 4:18 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by amanda at 4:18 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
So there are two factors that make raising my 11 daughter like playing this game in easy mode:
1. We're in New England, where a girl can go through her whole childhood dressing for comfort and function, never wearing makeup, never getting her ears pierced, and it's accepted, respected, and unremarkable. There's a lot to be said in praise of the echoing influence of the Puritans.
2. Her passion is drawing and painting. When your child's way of seeking attention is a medium where she need never show herself, and can lie about her age, that's a major plus. Especially when she's objectively good. Miss Ocschwar has filled a few canvases with acrylics, and pardon the brag, but if I passed her canvases off as my own, they'd sell for a profit. (I offered to do it to prove the assertion. She declined.)
So obviously the thing to do is look online for spaces for artsy kids, right? I did. Found several. All looked like decent places operated in good faith by admins and moderators doing their best. But all of them had their problems, including sketchy adults trying to worm in, and since coping out was an option, I used it. The issue is that any online space you create for kids will draw kids who are coming to fill a gap in their home lives. They are vulnerable. They are prey. And the predators will come too.
Oh, and the New England thing? We're on the internet. The global cultural homogenization means New England kids do get influencered.
I lucked out yet again. She has classmates with similar interests, and they spend their free time drawing characters for a graphic novel series they want to put together. But I won't always luck out.
posted by ocschwar at 6:03 PM on February 23 [9 favorites]
1. We're in New England, where a girl can go through her whole childhood dressing for comfort and function, never wearing makeup, never getting her ears pierced, and it's accepted, respected, and unremarkable. There's a lot to be said in praise of the echoing influence of the Puritans.
2. Her passion is drawing and painting. When your child's way of seeking attention is a medium where she need never show herself, and can lie about her age, that's a major plus. Especially when she's objectively good. Miss Ocschwar has filled a few canvases with acrylics, and pardon the brag, but if I passed her canvases off as my own, they'd sell for a profit. (I offered to do it to prove the assertion. She declined.)
So obviously the thing to do is look online for spaces for artsy kids, right? I did. Found several. All looked like decent places operated in good faith by admins and moderators doing their best. But all of them had their problems, including sketchy adults trying to worm in, and since coping out was an option, I used it. The issue is that any online space you create for kids will draw kids who are coming to fill a gap in their home lives. They are vulnerable. They are prey. And the predators will come too.
Oh, and the New England thing? We're on the internet. The global cultural homogenization means New England kids do get influencered.
I lucked out yet again. She has classmates with similar interests, and they spend their free time drawing characters for a graphic novel series they want to put together. But I won't always luck out.
posted by ocschwar at 6:03 PM on February 23 [9 favorites]
For anyone who is shocked at what parents will do to their children for money, you can buy a rider to your own life insurance that pays if your child say loses a limb or something. Even for burns, the max payout limit is very low because parents will set their children on fire for sums less than $10k
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:56 PM on February 23 [7 favorites]
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:56 PM on February 23 [7 favorites]
Jesus. That reminds me of a scene from Killers of the Flower Moon:
Kelsie is talking to a LAWYER.posted by star gentle uterus at 7:14 PM on February 23 [6 favorites]
KELSIE
So, my dead wife has two kids, and they have my name. So if I adopted them proper, if these two kids were to die, would I inherit their estates? They’re Osage. One’s half Osage, but they have headrights.
LAWYER
Kelsie, you realize that this indicates to me that you’re planning on adopting and killing these children?
KELSIE
No, not if it’s not legal and I don’t get the money. Then I’m not gonna do it.
what if the real problem was the capitalist hellscape that legitimates any kind of wealth extraction and accumulation while also forcing millions of people to live on the brink of poverty which forces them into desperate situations where they eventually feel compelled to exploit even their own children in horrible ways
my sense from the article (and the fact that these girls are mostly serious dancers/gymnasts), that the families involved in this are mostly middle class to rich
I think that we can't discount the weird dopamine hits of social media in this case -- the girls themselves (thank god) may never see the accumulating likes and emojis, but their moms certainly do. The attention to one's "work" (in terms of styling, posing, tagging one's daughter), the reflected glory that any compliment of one's kid would bring in real life -- that's all really important to a lot of folks. It doesn't matter how much money you have or don't have if what you want is the fame -- even if it's not your fame -- but then again it's your product, isn't it?
posted by Hypatia at 9:10 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
my sense from the article (and the fact that these girls are mostly serious dancers/gymnasts), that the families involved in this are mostly middle class to rich
I think that we can't discount the weird dopamine hits of social media in this case -- the girls themselves (thank god) may never see the accumulating likes and emojis, but their moms certainly do. The attention to one's "work" (in terms of styling, posing, tagging one's daughter), the reflected glory that any compliment of one's kid would bring in real life -- that's all really important to a lot of folks. It doesn't matter how much money you have or don't have if what you want is the fame -- even if it's not your fame -- but then again it's your product, isn't it?
posted by Hypatia at 9:10 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
This discussion reminds me a demonstration basketball game that I attended with the rest of my office as a new hire. The halftime show involved highschool cheerleaders, wearing flesh-coloured tights. The dance number was not an interpretation of the sunset or the falling rain. The dance number was an erotic display even though no one shed their tights. The women and moms in the crowd cheered encouragingly. Most of the men were staring fixedly, ignoring everything else around them. It was a real Emperor has no clothes moment. Most people just saw the cheerleading performance. And a lot of people saw the inexplicable eroticisation of young girls, but said nothing. And that is how people behaved in public, not in the anonymity of their computer room. Anyhow, one more reason to avoid major sporting events.
posted by SnowRottie at 10:34 PM on February 23 [13 favorites]
posted by SnowRottie at 10:34 PM on February 23 [13 favorites]
If anyone is still wondering where the dads are, one has surfaced on Reddit.
posted by Soliloquy at 4:32 PM on February 25 [4 favorites]
posted by Soliloquy at 4:32 PM on February 25 [4 favorites]
He and his daughter are the same respective ages as me and mine. This is horrifying.
posted by ocschwar at 6:15 PM on February 25
posted by ocschwar at 6:15 PM on February 25
And I'm amazed anyone is saying he's the asshole. All the risk for a "career" certain to end shortly after his daughter gets her first legal drink?
posted by ocschwar at 6:18 PM on February 25
posted by ocschwar at 6:18 PM on February 25
Like a lot of those posts on Reddit, the line between "compellingly true story" and "complete fiction" is really hard to parse. This one could go either way for me.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:29 PM on February 25
posted by Dip Flash at 6:29 PM on February 25
Yeah, I'd like to put this in the fiction column, and writing this as an exercise is pretty easy when the NYT article gives you all the prompt you need, but OTOH, the NYT article. This is far from the worst they discovered.
posted by ocschwar at 6:38 PM on February 25
posted by ocschwar at 6:38 PM on February 25
“These Kids Made Their Influencer Parents Wealthy. Will They See a Dime of That Money?,” Fortesa Latifi, Cosmopolitan, 12 March 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 2:25 PM on March 13
posted by ob1quixote at 2:25 PM on March 13
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Holy Christ. YES. YOU STOP IT AND WALK AWAY. Sweet mother of god, you stop it and you walk away! What the fuck!
posted by potrzebie at 8:41 PM on February 22 [81 favorites]