Can I have some Moor? The saucy metaphysics of moles, chili, and curry
March 1, 2024 10:18 AM Subscribe
"There are, however, a few surpring similiarites in our practices and customs. For example, the prominenance of chilies in both Indian and Mexican cooking. In the global gastronomic geography the two cuisines share a single place that can only be called eccentric: they are both imaginative and passionate infractions.... There is an undeniable similarity between curry and mole: the combination of sweet and the spicy, the reddish color full of sumptuous reflections, and its accompaniment to a meat or vegetable. ...Is [mole] an ingenious Mexican version of curry, or is curry a Hindu adaptation of a Mexican sauce? Our perplexity increases when we consider that there is not one but many kinds of curries and moles." -"In Light of India", Octavio Paz, Nobel Laureate in Literature & Mexican Ambassador to India
Food historian Rachel Laudan argues that before Mexico had its spices, and India had its chiles, the Moors' trade network bridged the Spanish to the Mughals of Central & Southeast Asia. These networks subserved the creation of shared spicy culinary traditions following the Colombian Exchange. Traditions that continue to evolve, and resist, today.
What "abomination" therefore is chili?
Recently related:
Detroit Coney
Mapo Tofu The Real Deal
Texas Red and Other Chili Recipes
Ceci n'est pas un curry
Food historian Rachel Laudan argues that before Mexico had its spices, and India had its chiles, the Moors' trade network bridged the Spanish to the Mughals of Central & Southeast Asia. These networks subserved the creation of shared spicy culinary traditions following the Colombian Exchange. Traditions that continue to evolve, and resist, today.
What "abomination" therefore is chili?
Recently related:
Detroit Coney
Mapo Tofu The Real Deal
Texas Red and Other Chili Recipes
Ceci n'est pas un curry
I mean the obvious answer is "a delicious one."
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:43 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:43 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
*Austin Powers take a bow
In my culinary venn diagram Mole & Curry are conforming circles.
posted by djseafood at 10:48 AM on March 1
In my culinary venn diagram Mole & Curry are conforming circles.
posted by djseafood at 10:48 AM on March 1
Obviously a case of convergent evolution.
posted by phliar at 10:53 AM on March 1 [2 favorites]
posted by phliar at 10:53 AM on March 1 [2 favorites]
wheeeeeeen the spice hits my tongue, just like blah blah blah blah
that's a MOLE!
dagnabbit cannot think of a rhyme. halp.
posted by supermedusa at 10:55 AM on March 1 [2 favorites]
that's a MOLE!
dagnabbit cannot think of a rhyme. halp.
posted by supermedusa at 10:55 AM on March 1 [2 favorites]
I used to go to a Persian/Mexican restaurant, and it solidified my feeling that fesenjan is basically mole.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:55 AM on March 1
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:55 AM on March 1
If you consume the dish wholely,
Then it’s probably a mole.
posted by njohnson23 at 11:05 AM on March 1 [4 favorites]
Then it’s probably a mole.
posted by njohnson23 at 11:05 AM on March 1 [4 favorites]
I, for the first time, looked up tortillas and made the whole spread from scratch except the meat sauce spices. At the end of it all, looking at the table, all I saw was chapatis, keema, green veg, tomatoes, sour milk item, and the extra, cheese. Barring avocado and cheese, what really was the difference, from an Indian meal? Yes, flavour profile but imho it looked the same to my n00b eyes.
tl;dr whatever Octavio Paz said
p.s. Thank you for the extra link to ancient trade routes, one of my fav topics to dive into rabbit holes for
posted by infini at 11:22 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
tl;dr whatever Octavio Paz said
p.s. Thank you for the extra link to ancient trade routes, one of my fav topics to dive into rabbit holes for
posted by infini at 11:22 AM on March 1 [5 favorites]
One of the interesting remarks I’ve seen repeated in a few places, was that formal Spanish cuisine left an imprint of relaxed formality on Mexican Cuisine of sequential or separate dishes, where Indian Cuisine is more typically served simultaneously. For whatever vague generalities will buy you… I’m an expert in neither cuisine to offer nuance.
posted by rubatan at 11:27 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]
posted by rubatan at 11:27 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]
dagnabbit cannot think of a rhyme. halp.
wheeeeeeen the spice hits your mouth,
and that fire travels south,
that's a MOLE!
posted by gurple at 11:31 AM on March 1 [7 favorites]
wheeeeeeen the spice hits your mouth,
and that fire travels south,
that's a MOLE!
posted by gurple at 11:31 AM on March 1 [7 favorites]
Salsa vs. chutney is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:50 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:50 AM on March 1 [1 favorite]
Salsa vs. chutney is left as an exercise for the reader.
Mexican salsa, as in a chile sauce, is definitely pre-Hispanic in origin and chutney has similarly ancient origins in India, so there's unlikely to be any particular connection there.
posted by ssg at 12:15 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
Mexican salsa, as in a chile sauce, is definitely pre-Hispanic in origin and chutney has similarly ancient origins in India, so there's unlikely to be any particular connection there.
posted by ssg at 12:15 PM on March 1 [1 favorite]
Mexican salsa, as in a chile sauce, is definitely pre-Hispanic in origin and chutney has similarly ancient origins in India, so there's unlikely to be any particular connection there.
I dunno, someone will claim it’s ancient alien visitors….
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:03 PM on March 1 [2 favorites]
I dunno, someone will claim it’s ancient alien visitors….
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:03 PM on March 1 [2 favorites]
Szechuan cooking, and some other regional Chinese cuisines, also feature red, chili-heavy sauces. Some of them make the Mexican and Indian equivalents look positively mild.
posted by pipeski at 2:19 PM on March 1
posted by pipeski at 2:19 PM on March 1
I dunno, someone will claim it’s ancient alien visitors….
Erich von Däniken's Nachos of the Gods
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:40 PM on March 1 [8 favorites]
Erich von Däniken's Nachos of the Gods
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:40 PM on March 1 [8 favorites]
The same can be said for the Curry Pastes of Thai cuisine being another variant on mole. Or is that considered a subset of Indian Curries, what with the cultural influence from India that predates the post Columbian intermingling?
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:43 PM on March 1
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:43 PM on March 1
Homer-drooling.gif
posted by lalochezia at 2:45 PM on March 1
posted by lalochezia at 2:45 PM on March 1
I have been saying this since before reading Octavio Paz.
Half of my family comes from zapote growing regions (towns like Zapotiltic and Zapotlán. Zapote was an important food in prehispanic times, still is in some regions. India produces and consumes more zapotes than Mexico.
I have no idea how many Mexicans live in India, but Indian immigration to Mexico has been increasing in the last couple of decades. Last time I had a job with access to statistics, 2021, there were around 2,000 permanent residents and naturalised citizens, and about 30,000 work visas. I forget the statistics for Pakistan, but it was also in the thousands.
I live in one of the neighbourhood with the highest concentration of Asian immigrants in the city, walking distance to Tata offices and several global consulting companies.
My daughter befriended a child of Indian immigrants at the park and they bonded over their love of spicy hot tamarind candy. I got to talk to the parents about Indian and Mexican food. They spent some time talking about this chili pepper from their hometown that they missed and that they could not find in Mexico. The name, which I can’t remember, means “chili pepper that looks at the sun”, because like some ornamental varieties that don’t taste good the fruits grow pointing up instead of hanging down, and turn yellow and orange when they are ripe.
I went home and brought them a plant of chile mirasol (“looking at the sun pepper”). It was a bittersweet moment. They found the chili pepper that they missed, but they lost the story of this amazing chili that only grows in a very small region of India.
This is based only on my experience talking with coworkers and people in my neighbourhood, so all I can say is that most IT professionals from
India living in Guadalajara believe and will argue that chili peppers come from China. All chilies originate in what is now Peru, and many cultivars were developed in what is now Mexico. But some idiot Dutch botanist in the 18th century named one of the most popular species, the one that includes all the habanero like peppers, Capsicum sinensis because he had only seen it in Chinese cuisine.
posted by Dr. Curare at 2:47 PM on March 1 [22 favorites]
Half of my family comes from zapote growing regions (towns like Zapotiltic and Zapotlán. Zapote was an important food in prehispanic times, still is in some regions. India produces and consumes more zapotes than Mexico.
I have no idea how many Mexicans live in India, but Indian immigration to Mexico has been increasing in the last couple of decades. Last time I had a job with access to statistics, 2021, there were around 2,000 permanent residents and naturalised citizens, and about 30,000 work visas. I forget the statistics for Pakistan, but it was also in the thousands.
I live in one of the neighbourhood with the highest concentration of Asian immigrants in the city, walking distance to Tata offices and several global consulting companies.
My daughter befriended a child of Indian immigrants at the park and they bonded over their love of spicy hot tamarind candy. I got to talk to the parents about Indian and Mexican food. They spent some time talking about this chili pepper from their hometown that they missed and that they could not find in Mexico. The name, which I can’t remember, means “chili pepper that looks at the sun”, because like some ornamental varieties that don’t taste good the fruits grow pointing up instead of hanging down, and turn yellow and orange when they are ripe.
I went home and brought them a plant of chile mirasol (“looking at the sun pepper”). It was a bittersweet moment. They found the chili pepper that they missed, but they lost the story of this amazing chili that only grows in a very small region of India.
This is based only on my experience talking with coworkers and people in my neighbourhood, so all I can say is that most IT professionals from
India living in Guadalajara believe and will argue that chili peppers come from China. All chilies originate in what is now Peru, and many cultivars were developed in what is now Mexico. But some idiot Dutch botanist in the 18th century named one of the most popular species, the one that includes all the habanero like peppers, Capsicum sinensis because he had only seen it in Chinese cuisine.
posted by Dr. Curare at 2:47 PM on March 1 [22 favorites]
I'm a culinary monist. A hot dog is a soup.
posted by Literaryhero at 5:19 PM on March 1 [4 favorites]
posted by Literaryhero at 5:19 PM on March 1 [4 favorites]
they bonded over their love of spicy hot tamarind candy
Please let me join this club I love these so much.
I've heard a story that tacos came to be in response to the Spanish palate which itself was shaped by its Muslim/Moorish past such that what they were looking for in the new colonies is something like a kebab. Unrelated except by accident there's a Singaporean food chain (open here in Malaysia too) called Stuff'd and while by design their whole shtick is that they do burritos and tacos and kebabs and explicitly have a tagline, "Mexican. Turkish. Delicious", I doubt it was based out of a deep anthropological study, just pattern-matching, but hey, whaddya know.
posted by cendawanita at 6:53 PM on March 2 [2 favorites]
Please let me join this club I love these so much.
I've heard a story that tacos came to be in response to the Spanish palate which itself was shaped by its Muslim/Moorish past such that what they were looking for in the new colonies is something like a kebab. Unrelated except by accident there's a Singaporean food chain (open here in Malaysia too) called Stuff'd and while by design their whole shtick is that they do burritos and tacos and kebabs and explicitly have a tagline, "Mexican. Turkish. Delicious", I doubt it was based out of a deep anthropological study, just pattern-matching, but hey, whaddya know.
posted by cendawanita at 6:53 PM on March 2 [2 favorites]
« Older Road Worrier | "Altruistic endeavours by an army of Trevors" Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Wow, shots fired! :D
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:23 AM on March 1 [2 favorites]