An orange hankie in the right pocket means.....

July 16, 2007 11:12 PM

Ever wondered how gay men signal each other with colored hankies? Ask Meathook. (warning: the photo section is not suitable for anyone, anywhere.)
posted by metasonix (81 comments total)

Whoa, wait a second, I don't want no site about fisting addressing me by my first name.
posted by Brittanie at 11:20 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

Oscar Wilde wore a green carnation
posted by hortense at 11:22 PM on July 16, 2007

I guess only gay guys could tell the subtle differences between various yellow-green shaded hankies to know who likes big dicks and who likes to be pissed on by military men who're active in anything.
posted by stavrogin at 11:23 PM on July 16, 2007

At first I thought you were suggesting that they waved them around energetically at everyone, going "hellllloooooooo!" until they got a positive response.

That seemed like a strange thing to suggest. This is more interesting.
posted by ibmcginty at 11:31 PM on July 16, 2007 [4 favorites]

A much more extensive list of handkerchief codes (a few of which, I guess, are so specific that I've gotta wonder how often they were used) is available here, and there's also more jokey uses like this goth code.

And, of course, the requisite wikipedia article.
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 11:36 PM on July 16, 2007

Also: gel bracelet code. Supposedly an urban legend - and I should hope so. Those things are just ... tacky.
posted by Xere at 11:56 PM on July 16, 2007

This has its roots in naval tradition; few know that the original version of the message from Nelson's flagship to the fleet before Trafalgar was, "England expects that every man will do his bunkmate."
posted by Abiezer at 12:02 AM on July 17, 2007 [8 favorites]

Not many color-blind gay folks out in the wild. Evolution weeds out the gauche.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:04 AM on July 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Abiezer, in the navy, could I sail the seven seas? In the navy, could I put my mind at ease? Would they want me, would they want me in the navy? Would they want me as a new recruit?

OMG, what am I gonna do with a long, thick submarine?
posted by stavrogin at 12:11 AM on July 17, 2007

Bizarre how specific many of these hankies are.

It's a bit like ordering a pizza, only it's gotta have nothing but olives on it. With their pips removed.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:14 AM on July 17, 2007

Abiezer: yes, the navy is firmly rooted in tradition.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:16 AM on July 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

So I'm contemplating my dark reddish bandana, and I can't tell if I'm into cutting, double fisting, cowboys, or spanking.
posted by louche mustachio at 12:31 AM on July 17, 2007

It's safe to assume that pretty much every man in the world, gay or straight, is for all intents and purposes wearing a sky-blue hankie on the left.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:07 AM on July 17, 2007

This reminds me of a huge country music bar in Kitchener,Ontario called Lulu's where they gave out balloons to patrons to signal their relationship status. Then at the end of the night everybody went out to the parking lot to watch drunk guys kick the crap out of each. Apparently, my balloon signaled "headbutt me".
posted by srboisvert at 1:20 AM on July 17, 2007 [5 favorites]

I guess only gay guys could tell the subtle differences between various yellow-green shaded hankies

gourmet booger eaters could
posted by pyramid termite at 1:34 AM on July 17, 2007

The handkerchief code was one of the first things I ever read on the net (along with Ol' Sarge's guide to breath play, and a file on the mechanics of having penetrative sex with a horse) long before the World Wide Web.

This one looks somewhat slight. What has meathook got against pitlickers and spitoons? Here's a longer one as the link TBOTRKR posted seems to be dead.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:36 AM on July 17, 2007

And those goddam priests never seem to change, do they?

" Fisting has a long history. The earliest reference I've come across, was from circa 200BC in India, where a test of relaxation during meditation was for a priest to insert his hand in the anus of his charges."

I might be so relaxed I'd be indistinguishable from the comatose, but I guarantee that if you even *touch* my bumhole, let alone stick your fist in there, I'm not going to be relaxed any longer.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:44 AM on July 17, 2007

I guess only gay guys could tell the subtle differences between various yellow-green shaded hankies

gourmet booger eaters could

pyramid termite, snot play is a white hankie with green spots.
posted by jet_silver at 1:53 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

I first read about this in an old collection of Cecil Adams's Straight Dope columns that I got when I was a kid--thanks, Mom--which has given me a whole other level of enjoyment from the recent trend of hipster guys wearing hankies in their back pockets as fashion accessories. I stood behind one of them the other day on the train who had a brown handkerchief sticking out of his right pocket and wondered how many really inappropriate propositions he'd gotten because of it, and if he even knew why.
posted by thatswherebatslive at 2:08 AM on July 17, 2007

Gay people, of whom I'm not one but I fully support their right to do what they like with their willies, often seem to develop obscure forms of communication.

They even have their own dialect of the English language.
posted by humblepigeon at 3:25 AM on July 17, 2007

"Khazi" is Polari? Really?

It's funny how much Polari fed back into other dialects since Round the Horne. I was surprised to see "thews" on there for thighs. I've heard the term squillions of times before but generally from Rugby League coaches during warm ups, many of whom would be mortified if they knew the origins. I'd always assumed it was an obscure bit of local dialect before.
posted by vbfg at 3:43 AM on July 17, 2007

"Khazi" is Polari? Really?

"The core of the words are hopefully "authentic" Polari, but some will be just "any old" slang."

Which is a bit rubbish really. Because a list of words of which SOME are Polari doesn't tell us very much at all.
posted by howfar at 3:49 AM on July 17, 2007

Thankyou, thatswherebatslive. I love a laugh at the expense of some fashion fool.
posted by Goofyy at 3:54 AM on July 17, 2007

I laughed when I saw what orange meant...
(since 'orange' is one of the most common 'safe' words since nothing rhymes with 'orange')
posted by sexyrobot at 4:01 AM on July 17, 2007

From my experience, hankie codes are really only alive within the serious leather community, and even then not many people really bother.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:07 AM on July 17, 2007

(since 'orange' is one of the most common 'safe' words since nothing rhymes with 'orange')

*sigh* - we've been through this before. in an american accent, orange rhymes with whore minge. that makes it a particularly unsafe safe word.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:07 AM on July 17, 2007

Rugby League is full of very butch poofs, from my experience, vbfg , so, no.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 4:21 AM on July 17, 2007

Nope. Never once wondered. Just another code (like the meaning of flowers or the proper gift for an anniversary) that I didn't need to know and will pay no attention to.
posted by beelzbubba at 4:34 AM on July 17, 2007

damn, us hetero BDSMers actually have to talk to each other.
posted by desjardins at 5:41 AM on July 17, 2007

So what exactly does this one mean?
posted by caution live frogs at 6:00 AM on July 17, 2007

I still have not been hit on when wearing my green lacoste polo.
posted by psmealey at 6:09 AM on July 17, 2007

"Khazi" is Polari? Really?

Far more interesting is "naff", which was picked up by Porridge, possibly because Round the Horne had got away with so much blatant Polari ("I'm just doing the dishes with Sandy!" - ie myself and Sandy have having anal sex).

The writers said it was unthinkable that prisoners wouldn't swear, and because it was a family show, they had to appropriate a word. So you got "naff off, Godber" and "it's no naffing good".

It then slipped into common usage to mean something that's no good. I think Princess Anne said it at one point.

It's actually an acronym for "not available for fucking", and was used to describe a man who already had a partner, or who was straight etc. Somebody would walk into a bar and eyes would fall him him before somebody would say, "He's naff".
posted by humblepigeon at 6:11 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

My Cock Gets Complete Repsect, Even From Straight Men.
posted by The Straightener at 6:19 AM on July 17, 2007

Ever wondered how whether gay men signal each other with colored hankies?

They don't. Okay, like, two dozen do. And they're all dating each other.
posted by hermitosis at 6:19 AM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

This is nothing new. And with all of these to choose from, you go with the one that asks for my name?

Best of the web? Really?
posted by Reggie Digest at 6:27 AM on July 17, 2007

When I was growing up in Kansas in the late 70s, I worked on a delivery truck. I kept a hankie in my pocket to wipe sweat off my brow. It's hot in Kansas. I went to a bar one night after work, to see a punk/New Wave band I liked (the Embarrassment, as it happens). I confess, I was underage.

Anyway, during gig a bunch of guys from the local frat bar next door came in and started to bust the place up. They were looking for "faggots." I had my hankie in my pocket and one of them began to, um, assault me. He yelled right in my face "What are u doin' with that God-damned hankie in ur pocket, punk?" I thought he had something against cleanliness.

Now I know the TRUTH!
posted by MarshallPoe at 6:35 AM on July 17, 2007

My meathook.org name is "Beef Wellington."
posted by The Straightener at 6:37 AM on July 17, 2007

Wait...is that YOUR left or MY left?
posted by jmccw at 6:48 AM on July 17, 2007

I blame the haberdashers.
posted by jonmc at 6:52 AM on July 17, 2007

Lest we forget:

Peaches' bonus track from her Downtown single: Hanky Code

"Are you left? Are you right?
Or are you switchin' just for tonight?"
posted by LMGM at 6:53 AM on July 17, 2007

A snot-encrusted hanky means..that you have a cold.
posted by jonmc at 7:03 AM on July 17, 2007

I prefer the green polo with the popped collar approach.
posted by Dr-Baa at 7:06 AM on July 17, 2007

Rugby League coaches during warm ups

Check out France's new rugby campaign ad. No hankies necessary!
posted by ericb at 7:15 AM on July 17, 2007

I've taken on GeordieBeef for training.

Translation: I'm using my reputation as a Master with seventh level skills taught to me by ancient BDSM monks from Mongolia to get nookie and maid service from an individual who would otherwise be far too attractive to give me the time of day. Hopefully, it will be at least six months before it dawns on him that I tie a ball sack and smear lubricant on my latex gloves more-or-less the same way that any other top would and that, no matter how much I bullshit, I really don't have any special gifts in the area of kinky sex.

Recently (in Europe at least), a versatile player shows this by wearing the hankie around his neck like a bandanna.

Translation: I saw one guy in a bar in London wearing his this way and made a bunch of assumptions about what it meant and how prevelant it was.

From my experience, hankie codes are really only alive within the serious leather community, and even then not many people really bother.

Actually, I'll go you one better. Hanky codes are only alive with non-serious leather people, the kind who are out to impress everyone with their knowledge of BDSM history and ettiquite, even though there really isn't much of either to know. The history, for the most part, hasn't been written down and is therefore subject to some pretty absurd distortions and tall tale-ificiation and guesswork and wishful thinking presented as fact. As for ettiquite, aside from a few common sense type rules of necessity, there really isn't any that's written in stone. The hanky code arose out of the anonymous-sex-friendly gay bar scene in places like San Francisco in the sixties and seventies. Since that culture is now gone, so is the hanky code.

Yeah, you can find people giving lectures on "old guard protocol" and prattling on about flagging left and flagging right, but that's about 98 percent bullshit. These are the same guys who go to places like The Eagle in Atlanta in their leather gear with their Wild One leather caps, flagging that they're into needle play and fisting. Which is to say, they're straight guys who read the hanky code on the internet and like to feel like bigshots.

The truth is that the hanky code has been replaced by something even more obscure and inside-ery and hardcore: It's called a fucking internet profile. And every pervert, whether gay or straight, from here to fucking Istanbul has one. And believe it or not, on this profile (which you find on something called a "webpage"), you can list in relatively plain English (or French or whatever floats your boat) precisely what you're into. Sometimes in graphic detail. With pictures. And links to videos. And body fluid samples.

So, you see, the world no longer needs the hanky code.

Okay, okay... maybe in gay bars in Sussex and Liverpool guys still flag. MAYBE. I mean, I seriously doubt it, but I haven't been there, so I can't say for sure. But even if they did, what percentage of the gay men in the UK do you think actually want to give or recieve a spanking, let alone golden showers or scat? I mean, seriously.

Obviously I'm a bit cranky on this subject. That's because this kind of silliness has caused so many of my friends to just walk away from the organized BDSM community altogether. Often I wish we could just act like grownups. Alas. No signs of it just yet.
posted by Clay201 at 7:43 AM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

In America, fisting is often rather confusingly called handball

Er wait what whatinthebutt? I can't say I've ever heard of fisting referred to as handball.
posted by katillathehun at 7:58 AM on July 17, 2007

I've heard it called "handballing"... like you're balling (fucking), but you're using your hand. But without the "-ing," it kinda leaves you scratching your head.
posted by Clay201 at 8:05 AM on July 17, 2007

Clay201, you make a few good points, but I do think you're a tad too "cranky" on the subject.

Yeah, the hanky stuff has fallen more into disuse with the rise of the internet as the main cruising/pick-up method, and the slow demise of the leather bars. However, some of the central color coding remains. For example, look at some of the popular choices in leather and latex fetish wear which often include stripes or decorations in either yellow, red, grey, or blue as those represent the most common activities and the most commonly seen hankies.

And "flagging" left or right, whether with a hanky or keys or an armband, is definitely not "98 percent bullshit." In leather/BDSM circles it's very much alive. You have to realize that the leather/BDSM world is very interested in symbols - it's part of the mystique of the whole thing. Or at least it is for many - it's less true of the younger 20-something guys who seem, in a general sense, less interested in the rigid "roles" that used to be central to the scene and more into different kinds of looks, different kinds of experiences for their own sake.

what percentage of the gay men in the UK do you think actually want to give or recieve a spanking, let alone golden showers or scat?

You would be SO surprised. Particularly the spanking part. There's a reason spanking used to be called "The British Vice." It has been noted by many for over 100 years that spanking and whipping (such as with riding crops) is surprisingly popular among the British. In Germany at the moment, it's fisting that's the big thing.

More leather/BDSM history is written down than you probably know. Just not all in one easy source.
posted by dnash at 8:40 AM on July 17, 2007

I could be wrong, but I doubt that the oft-talked-about hanky code, which as a meme seems to have an inordinate way of popping up and re-animating every so often, is anything much but a historical footnote.

When guys can find each other on the internets and prescreen each other for preferences and peccadilloes down to the minutest specifications, a colorful pocket hanky isn't exactly necessary.

Even in the long-past 1990s when I was in gay bars in the Castro and South of Market in San Francisco, hankies were never in sight. It may be that I was walking into the wrong bars.
posted by blucevalo at 8:51 AM on July 17, 2007

I just read dnash's comment -- after I'd posted mine.

Very intriguing to know. I had no idea, and it's fascinating to me that the symbolism still has that kind of currency.
posted by blucevalo at 8:54 AM on July 17, 2007

I guess only gay guys could tell the subtle differences between various yellow-green shaded hankies to know who likes big dicks and who likes to be pissed on by military men who're active in anything.

I really, really hope you're gay.

I'm depressed by living in an age where homophobia is still very real (guess what? I could still be legally stoned to death in some countries for my sexual orientation folks!) and yet so many people feel that they are so post-modern that they can make homophobic comments, and it actually makes them witty, urban, and with-it.

This kind of post, without any context or perspective, invites a certain amount of commentary along the lines of 'LOLfreeeks' that really depresses me.

Having said that, and without even clicking the link (I can't click at the moment because I'm at my in-law's house (or should I say out-of-law's house since I'm GAY and so I CAN'T GET MARRIED)), I can, as a queer pervert, give my perspective on hanky's : at least in the SF bay area the folks who I see using hanky code are pervy dykes, gay male perves during SM events (like Folsom Street Fair, or at a leather competition). I most often see hunter green (daddy), or black (general SM interest or 'hard core' SM), or red (fisting). It is very rare that I see any other color in general use, although I have seen pissing yellow at Dorie Alley Fair - an SM street fair that is more for the perv community and less for tourists than Folsom Street.

Folks don't do hanky code while shopping for produce or even while they're out dancing. It's something to do when you're at an SM themed event of some sort.
posted by serazin at 8:56 AM on July 17, 2007 [5 favorites]

I definitely saw them in the late 90s in Chicago, but only black, grey, yellow, or red. In specialty situations, such as the hotel during the International Mr. Leather weekend, also blue and hunter green. And they were definitely a good sign that the person with them was actually into some kinky activities, as opposed to those who just like to wear the leather clothes but only have "vanilla" sex.
posted by dnash at 8:59 AM on July 17, 2007

FWIW, "naff" as "not available for fucking" is widely considered to be a backronym. OED says only that it's a euphemism for the F word.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:09 AM on July 17, 2007

The hanky code is bogus (about a half dozen of these are in actual use), and widely available elsewhere, in an even longer and more preposterous version.

Is a post whose essential message is "ew queers are weird" really the best of the web?

And yes, I have flagged it, and now I am moving on.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:27 AM on July 17, 2007

Clay201 writes 'Okay, okay... maybe in gay bars in Sussex and Liverpool guys still flag'

They don't in Liverpool. I dunno about Sussex though. Isn't Brighton in Sussex? There's a lot of very old gay men in Brighton, so it might have survived there.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:39 AM on July 17, 2007

look at some of the popular choices in leather and latex fetish wear which often include stripes or decorations in either yellow, red, grey, or blue.

I've never seen any such fetish wear. Where would I find it?

And "flagging" left or right, whether with a hanky or keys or an armband, is definitely not "98 percent bullshit." In leather/BDSM circles it's very much alive.

Okay. So where are people flagging? In New York? In London? In bars? At play parties and "educational" events in the midwest? I don't think you're going to find it in Atlanta.

You have to realize that the leather/BDSM world is very interested in symbols - it's part of the mystique of the whole thing.

That's highly debatable. You can find some guy going on and on about this or that symbol, sure, but you can also find ten people laughing at him behind his back. Now, if we were talking about something like, say, boots - arguably a symbol, but also a fetish item and a toy - then I'd agree that symbols are a big part of the picture. Can you point to any specific examples of what you would consider symbol-philia?

less interested in the rigid "roles" that used to be central to the scene

See, this is just the kind of vague, everything-was-better-in-the-good-old-days sorta history worship I'm talking about. If you read Larry Townshend's Leatherman's Handbook, which recounts the late 60s, early 70s era in California, you'll find that roles really weren't any more "rigid" than they are today. People switched all the time and there was no great sense of formality about any of it.

There's a reason spanking used to be called "The British Vice." It has been noted by many for over 100 years that spanking and whipping (such as with riding crops) is surprisingly popular among the British.

I've heard stuff like this before, but I usually reserve judgment until I've seen reliable statistics. It's just too easy to look at, say, corporal punishment in the British schools and say "Oh, man, what a bunch of perverts." I mean, I tend to believe there's some truth in it and I think you can make a case that spanking has a different place there than in, say, Italian culture. But that's very different than saying that stats show that Brits like spanking more than Italians.

More leather/BDSM history is written down than you probably know. Just not all in one easy source.

I've read the stuff by Towshend and some stuff by Rinella, I think and a few other items along the way. What else did you have in mind?
posted by Clay201 at 9:42 AM on July 17, 2007

Is a post whose essential message is "ew queers are weird" really the best of the web?

I didn't pick up the message of the post itself as quite "ew queers are weird." More like "wow, this is curious."

But yeah, a handful of the subsequent comments in the thread have had that "Gee willikers, them there queers are sure funny/bizarre/laughable/ridiculous/borderline nauseating" aroma.
posted by blucevalo at 9:45 AM on July 17, 2007

Thanks, goodnewsfortheinsane, I was just about to look that up, actually. The acronymic etymology seems particularly unlikely when you consider that "naff" in mainstream use has come to indicate something cheap, vulgar or tacky. Footballers who go dogging are naff, but hardly "not available for fucking". Not that words don't change meanings, but without some kind of citation, this is going to have to go down as an extremely unlikely piece of folk etymology.
posted by howfar at 9:46 AM on July 17, 2007

I've never seen any such fetish wear. Where would I find it?

Clay201, you must be joking, right? And I'm straight!

[pretty much NSFW]
posted by desjardins at 10:14 AM on July 17, 2007

I've thought a little more about the "symbols" issue. I think I know what the problem is, at least from where I sit. There are symbols, sure, but they don't have well defined meanings.

An example: In the vanilla world, a wedding ring is a symbol of marriage, right? And marriage means exclusivity, monogamy, love, and several other things, right? Well, in the BDSM world, we have collars. And collars mean something to just about everyone. The problem is, they can mean very different things to different people. I've played with several collared submissives; the collar doesn't necessarily imply exclusivity or even monogamy. Further, I've heard the term "collar of consideration" (which always makes me a bit nauseous; makes me think of southern cotillions and sorority girls), seen collars that indicated submission but not ownership, and collars that signified a relationship that was long since past. The bottom line is, if I see a woman wearing a collar at a play party, I can't really make any assumptions about her, her availability, or her relationship status. So sure, the collar is a symbol, but it doesn't have the well-defined meaning that a wedding ring does in the vanilla world. In this particular area, you could argue (though I probably wouldn't; I think it's pretty near impossible to make these kinds of generalizations about such a widely dispersed and varied group) that we're less concerned with symbols than vanilla people.

To return to the issue of flags... if I see a guy wearing black and gold bandannas hanging out of his pocket, I don't think "Ah. There's a guy looking to pick someone up for some heavy SM and watersports." Instead, I think "Ah, there's a guy who's here mainly to show off and isn't necessarily looking for anyone or anything." In this context, the 'flag' loses its meaning; it's no longer a method of communicating availability and interest. It's now just a stupid affectation, like ray-ban sunglasses in the eighties.

So, again, in one sense, yeah, we like symbols. But that doesn't mean we have an organized social structure with clearly defined roles and such. The people who like to say that we do (or that we should) are usually the ones who envision themselves sitting at the top of such hierarchies.
posted by Clay201 at 10:18 AM on July 17, 2007

desjardins:

Ah. You learn something new everday. I guess the problem is that when I go to stockroom.com, I'm usually looking at some of the more practical impliments. And I've never seen anyone wearing anything like that at a gathering. Also, um, I'm straight (like yourself), so, you know, not so much the shopping for jock straps and leather pants.
posted by Clay201 at 10:24 AM on July 17, 2007

serazin: The comment of stavrogin's that you quoted was not homophobic. It was "humourous" because it called attention to a complex system which may be hard for some people to get the hang of.

Making a joke about a problem a person might encounter is not homophobic just because the hypothetical person is homosexual.

I'm sorry you "can't get married", but I think you're letting your anger out in the wrong place, and at the wrong person.
posted by chudmonkey at 10:27 AM on July 17, 2007

I've never seen any such fetish wear. Where would I find it?

I'm posting from work, where I can't really go looking for lots of links, so please forgive that, but.. First name that comes to mind is Nasty Pig, who make fetish wear out of a polyamide rubber that's sort of in between latex and neoprene. One of their most popular styles is black chaps with a colored stripe down the side of the legs, where the color choices are white, light blue, yellow, and red. They also make matching rubber jocks/codpieces with a colored stripe down the center. While these don't flag "top or bottom," the color choice is definitely used to express interest in a certain activity.

Leather or rubber police-style uniform shirts are also a popular choice, and these often come with a colored piping detail around the edges of sleeves and pockets, and again the color choices are usually blue, white, red, yellow, or grey - and again this can be used to express fetish interests. Mr. S Leathers in San Francisco, Leatherpost.com, Expectations in London - I'm pretty sure all of those carry these kinds of outfits. Also there are lots of latex rubber designs which feature color accents, again most often in those same colors.

So where are people flagging? In New York? In London? In bars? At play parties and "educational" events in the midwest? I don't think you're going to find it in Atlanta.

In Atlanta, you'd certainly have seen it when Fort Troff was having their notorious BDSM/fetish sex parties, but I understand those have recently ended. But you will definitely still see left/right top/bottom flagging (of keys, hankies, and/or armbands) at major events like International Mr. Leather in Chicago, Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco and all of the similar events that have begun borrowing the name (Folsom East in NYC, Folsom Europe which I think is in Berlin, Folsom North in Toronto...). You and others here are right that the increased use of the internet in finding sex partners has decreased the daily use of this kind of thing, but that does not mean it's not still in use at the big gatherings of kinksters, which are still very popular.

That's highly debatable. You can find some guy going on and on about this or that symbol, sure, but you can also find ten people laughing at him behind his back.

Oh, sure. There are definitely a few complete loons out there spouting all sorts of total bullshit about their "credentials." But that doesn't mean that every older man who speaks of the way they did things back in the day is lying or making shit up. For this, (and if I was posting this from home I might be able to dig up some specific publication references) I'd suggest looking for some writings by Joseph W. Bean on the subject of the "old guard." He's quick to say that much of what gets called "old guard" these days is a recent invention of those seeking self-aggrandizement by attempting to link themselves to some sort of esoteric history; but Bean also grew up in that actual "old guard" world and does tell how some of it was true. (One good example - and this one he told to me personally so I don't have a written reference for it - is that some of the "attitude" of leather bars can be traced to the old time illegality of dancing in gay/leather bars. If you so much as tapped your foot in time to music in the bar while an undercover cop was around, they could raid the place. So at the time, the sort of "stand and model"-ness of leather cruising was just part of self preservation, but later on it's the sort of thing that gets considered part of some sort of rule or code.)


See, this is just the kind of vague, everything-was-better-in-the-good-old-days sorta history worship I'm talking about.

I was making a personal observation based on my own 10 years of activity in the gay BDSM scene. The guys younger than me are, in general, less interested in sticking to fairly fixed top or bottom roles and switch around all the time. Older guys, while they DO switch on occasion, generally stay with one or the other role. I see more guys looking for the kind of 24/7 Master/slave role relationship among guys roughly my age or older. Again, not 100%, just a sort of general trend. There's also the fact that there's sort of a big generation gap issue in that a big swath of the men who would be in the middle of the age span is, well, gone from AIDS. I'm not making any sort of "good old days" statement, just observing that there are some generational differences. (There always have been, really.) I'm not calling one better than the other.

I've read the stuff by Towshend and some stuff by Rinella, I think and a few other items along the way. What else did you have in mind?

Well, one place to start would be AmericanFetish.net. Rob Bienvenu did his doctoral dissertation on "the evolution of fetish as a cultural style in mid-20th century America." Though he's not writing too much about actual SM practices, he traces the stylistic development of things like leather, latex, boots, corsets, etc. from about 1900 to 1970. It's available for download at that site.

One of the best things, that's the hardest to find (sadly) is the doctoral dissertaion of Gayle Rubin. One keeps hoping she'll get her act together and get the thing published properly, as it deserves to be, but for some reason she's not done so and is apparently over-protective of attempts to quote from it. Anyway, it's a very detailed history of the gay leather culture in San Francisco and the Bay Area.

Those are actually the only two in-depth, book-length works I know of. But there's a lot more out there, in the form of articles and essays by Joseph W. Bean, Guy Baldwin, Tony DeBlase, etc. There's also The Leather Archives and Museum in Chicago.
posted by dnash at 10:33 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Also, um, I'm straight (like yourself), so, you know, not so much the shopping for jock straps and leather pants.

My mistake, I misremembered an earlier comment of yours. I linked to predominantly gay sites based on my faulty memory. My experience in the straight BDSM community echoes yours - few participate in any color-coded symbolism. However, if straight men didn't wear jockstraps and leather pants at all, I'd be single.

[some just take a little, er, convincing, knowwhatimean?]
posted by desjardins at 10:34 AM on July 17, 2007

Clay201: Also, um, I'm straight....

Ahhh, ok. I didn't know that before, and it does explain a few things to me. Yes, the straight BDSM world is very different than the gay one. I'm speaking from a gay man's perspective. I don't know a lot about how the straight BDSM scene works, but I believe they've never done the kind of flagging that gay men have, beyond maybe collars. I've never really heard of straights using the colored hankies, for instance.
posted by dnash at 10:40 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Echoing Clay201's comment about collars - the symbolism is almost a moot point in the BDSM world. If someone is being led around on a leash, I'll assume they're a bottom and taken (at least for the moment), but short of that, there is no agreed-upon meaning. I could wear a whole array of hankies to my next event and I'd bet there'd be very few people under 50 who would even have any idea that they meant something beyond a fashion statement.

Then again, there are few straight BDSM communities that compare with the relative level of organization or insularity of the gay leather community.
posted by desjardins at 10:44 AM on July 17, 2007

Is this color code (which I've heard legends of for at least 20 years) why Steven Tyler of Aerosmith had basically every color possible attached to his mic stand? That man must have been down for absolutely anything.

I believe the list linked to is hogwash... too many fine distinctions, and WAY too much to be committed to memory.

I could see how such a method would be helpful, but basically I can't imagine needing more than 3 flags: top, bottom, switch hitter.

That pretty much sums it up for initial requirements, doesn't it? After that, its just details that could be sorted out over a drink.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:26 PM on July 17, 2007

What if you just need to blow your nose?
posted by HTuttle at 12:57 PM on July 17, 2007

Where's my web 2.0? Where's my pagerlike device that senses the location of other people with similar devices, then automatically negotiates what we're up for, and whether or not we're compatible? It could then vibrate quietly to let me know. "I'm into spitplay." "I'm generally submissive." "I've got herpes, what about you?" Up to more complicated things like, "I only date bisexual males who pitch 100% of the time" or some kind of algorithm negotiates who is holding the riding crop based on a combination of age, height, and gender. I'm sure it's a moneymaker.

I'd love to see the XML schema that could represent "girls who want boys who like boys to be girls who do boys like they're girls who do girls like they're boys." It always should be someone you really love, though.
posted by adipocere at 1:32 PM on July 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Safety tip: don’t paw Renxerox’s ass thinking he wants fisting.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:43 PM on July 17, 2007

Vice's VBS.TV has a fairly interesting look inside an NYC leather bar, including a short bit on hankies, here.
posted by thatswherebatslive at 2:15 PM on July 17, 2007

My meathook.org name is "Beef Wellington."

I went to university with the (gay) porn star Beef Wellington. Are you him?
posted by John Shaft at 2:53 PM on July 17, 2007

So, what can I get with this tie-die hanky?
posted by Twang at 2:57 PM on July 17, 2007

So, what can I get with this tie-die hanky?

Wrung up, rubber-banded, dipped, and hung up to dry. You interested?
posted by Ufez Jones at 4:41 PM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

"I've heard stuff like this before, but I usually reserve judgment until I've seen reliable statistics. It's just too easy to look at, say, corporal punishment in the British schools and say "Oh, man, what a bunch of perverts." I mean, I tend to believe there's some truth in it and I think you can make a case that spanking has a different place there than in, say, Italian culture. But that's very different than saying that stats show that Brits like spanking more than Italians."

I don't have hard stats, but a quick perusal of the Taboo magazine archives tells me that the photographers who submit spanking photo sets are more likely to be British.
posted by klangklangston at 4:54 PM on July 17, 2007

(But this conversation has been fascinating...)
posted by klangklangston at 4:55 PM on July 17, 2007

Previously on AskMe. (Hey, I always wanted to know...)
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:00 PM on July 17, 2007

Clay201 - I respect your knowledge of perv history etc, but yes, hankies are very much a queer identifier. They are not laughable within the circles they are used - obviously - or they wouldn't be used there. Maybe it's the Bay Area fetishization of an artificial queer Golden Age, but hankies are still popular here, amoung hip young queers and old school ones too. But as I said, I only see them in queer/perv contexts like leather fairs, meetings, and play parties.
posted by serazin at 5:48 PM on July 17, 2007

What about semaphore?
posted by kirkaracha at 6:38 PM on July 17, 2007

What if it's paisley?
posted by SisterHavana at 8:25 PM on July 17, 2007

Paisley? Roman Showers.

Well, it induces them, anyway. Or should in any self-respecting human being.

I'll be going now.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:37 AM on July 18, 2007

Clay201: You want some hard stats on spanking? Here's a list of who's searching for what on Google. Coming in at the top are Ireland and the UK.
Then again, this could possibly reflect people searching for non-sexual information on corporal punishment. On the other hand, the UK is only #7 in searches for corporal punishment itself.
posted by CrunchyFrog at 9:04 AM on July 18, 2007