Immigrants out! (That is, unless you're white)

June 13, 2010 9:58 AM

The newly-formed American Third Position aspires to be the United States' premier white nationalist party.

Unlike those other guys, the A3P aspires to put a friendly, 'moderate' face on American white nationalism.

They have a political program, which asserts several things you would expect, but also explains their desire for "a land that is absolutely free of pollution" and provide "incentives to our best and brightest to pursue our space exploration goals."

Their ideological leadership includes Tom Sunic, Croatian nationalist philosopher associated with the European New Right.

They have a forum, which includes a fun (?) discussion on whether or not Korean-Americans are Americans. (You see a lot of: "Don't let him in! Slippery slope, slippery slope!!")

So, in case you're tired of hating on the Tea Party, and wonder why Europeans get to have all the fun dealing with neo-fascism, look no further.

(... but with just 955 Facebook friends, I wouldn't lose any sleep over them.)

posted by edguardo (139 comments total)

I'm wondering myself whether this is even FPP-worthy, but I decided to post it since it's the first American fascist/third way party I've heard of existing since before World War 2.

Speaking of which, they heart Charles Lindbergh.
posted by edguardo at 10:01 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Someone watched Moonraker one too many times?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:02 AM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

Their logo is kind of odd, and looks like coked up graphic designer was trying to pay homage to Om or something.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:02 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Well, that was odd. That was a copy from a previous thread. Ommmmmmm.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:03 AM on June 13, 2010

Oh good. A BNP of our very own.
posted by kafziel at 10:07 AM on June 13, 2010

Their logo is kind of odd, and looks like coked up graphic designer

It's youthful! It's got zing! Like the Nike swoosh! It's got Web 2.0 bevels and drop shadows! It's got splash and movement! It's... *gak*... *sniff*...
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:07 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Oh good. A BNP of our very own.

I gather that's exactly who they're trying to emulate.
posted by edguardo at 10:11 AM on June 13, 2010

Dear American Third Position,


Blow me.


Warm regards,
Saxon Kane.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:16 AM on June 13, 2010 [7 favorites]

So. "Third Position". That's when you do your sister up against the outhouse wall, right?
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:23 AM on June 13, 2010 [26 favorites]

Looks like the Nazi's are trying to update their look. Scary. How many years of recession and natural disasters before these guys, or someone like them, start getting some real traction? (Because, y'know, America didn't have these kind of problems before we became the welfare provider for the third world hordes sneaking across our borders.)
posted by doctor_negative at 10:25 AM on June 13, 2010

But you have the Tea Party already!
posted by Artw at 10:30 AM on June 13, 2010 [4 favorites]

Just what we need. Yay.
posted by rtha at 10:34 AM on June 13, 2010

They have a political program, which asserts several things you would expect, but also explains their desire for "a land that is absolutely free of pollution" and provide "incentives to our best and brightest to pursue our space exploration goals."

Obligatory Mr Show sketch.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:34 AM on June 13, 2010 [8 favorites]

Wait. Laugh, or cry?

While providing a less-than-shocking confirmation that California is undergoing a colossal demographic transformation, the scale of which is not often seen outside campaigns of ethnic cleansing, the latest report concerning California demography, conducted by the California Department of Finance, provides some alarming insight into the nature of the displacement of Whites from the state. (emphasis mine; cite)

posted by rtha at 10:38 AM on June 13, 2010

Looks like the Nazi's are trying to update their look.

When what we really need are more Grammar Nazis.
posted by codswallop at 10:38 AM on June 13, 2010 [11 favorites]

None for me thanks!
posted by Daddy-O at 10:40 AM on June 13, 2010

But you have the Tea Party Republican Party already!
posted by octothorpe at 10:42 AM on June 13, 2010 [4 favorites]

"I'm gonna tell all you fascists; you might be surprised. People all over this world are getting organized. You're bound to lose. You fascists, bound to lose."

Honestly, I hope that they're moderately successful. They could cripple the GOP in a lot of interesting places. I don't think the party in power matters very much, but I still root for the Democrats like I do for the Red Sox-- it warms my heart to see them win even if it really means nothing.

And if they're TOO successful, areas of the US where the political scene is still relatively sane will have to take a hard look at secession. So that's a win as well-- I hate fascists more than most people, but I'd be willing to give them the worst parts of the USA to get a new country where sanity isn't hampered by mouth-breathers who live far away from me.

But that's a pipe dream because they won't be too successful. Libertarianism is a lot more palatable to most Americans than overt race hatred, and the Libertarian Party is tiny.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:45 AM on June 13, 2010 [8 favorites]

Anyone else notice the misspelled "This is are(sic) land" poster on the Mexican colonization of California article? I can't tell whether they misspelled it on purpose (to make those durn Mexicans look dumb), whether they misspelled it unintentionally (because they're not that bright either), or whether they just grabbed a misspelled sign from an Aztlan-centric group (because, well, racists of any color are kind of dumb). The more I think about where that poster came from the less sense it makes. It's like a Mandelbrot fractal of bigotry and idiocy.
posted by Panjandrum at 10:46 AM on June 13, 2010

So, yeah, what Codswallop said.
posted by Panjandrum at 10:47 AM on June 13, 2010

That logo does suck. The red "stripes" look like bloody slashes. Maybe that's what they were going for?
posted by Xoebe at 10:49 AM on June 13, 2010

But that's a pipe dream because they won't be too successful. Libertarianism is a lot more palatable to most Americans than overt race hatred, and the Libertarian Party is tiny.

Look at Rand Paul in Kentucky: is he a Republican or a Libertarian, or neither?

The GOP can't decide what to represent, and so tiny parties like this might actually make a dent in their votes.
posted by edguardo at 10:49 AM on June 13, 2010

Artw: "But you have the Tea Party already!"

Is the Tea Party and actual party? I thought they were just a movement.
posted by Mitheral at 10:52 AM on June 13, 2010

Immigration reform != racism != Nazism != Fascism.

_{/ though in fairness, most Nazis do tend toward racism, but they exist separately.}


Mitheral : Is the Tea Party and actual party? I thought they were just a movement.

Scarily enough, they have real shot at winning the Maine governorship this coming November (well, via a nominal Republican, but he swept the primary thanks to his almost 100% TP platform).

Sad, really. I agree with most of his economic policies, and then he starts talking about social issues and my jaw just drops.
posted by pla at 10:55 AM on June 13, 2010 [4 favorites]

If anyone ever wants an instance of when Duverger's law might be viewed as beneficial, well ...
posted by adipocere at 10:57 AM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

These guys are a clever ruse. They don't want power, they merely want to make the Tea Party favorites look more moderate, and thus more electable.
posted by oddman at 10:59 AM on June 13, 2010 [6 favorites]

Sad, really. I agree with most of his economic policies, and then he starts talking about social issues and my jaw just drops.

Come for the flat tax, stay for the race-baiting.
posted by joe lisboa at 10:59 AM on June 13, 2010 [14 favorites]

So I've been wondering. The last couple of years there seems to have been a general resurgence of far-right anti-immigrant sentiments in many parts of the world, some of which have brought about entirely new parties that aren't even afraid of expressing their xenophobia however politically incorrect such views may be considered by a society as a whole.

Here in Sweden we have at least two relatively new parties whose main agenda lie in reforming immigration policies and have strong words against immigrants, Islam, and all that involves. A lot of other European states have also experienced increases in distrust towards immigrants in general.

As someone who only began getting interested in politics about 8 years ago when I finished high school I direct this question at people who have much more experience/knowledge in the field than I from a historical perspective: do sentiments like these ebb and flow? Should I continue to worry that such sentiments will gain a major foothold, or can I assure myself that though they may appear periodically they usually peter out?

Not to say that there isn't opposition from both voters and other parties, but just the fact that it's happening is enough to scare me somewhat.

/Or are these just dumb questions and I'm just looking at it all from too simple a perspective?
posted by pyrex at 11:06 AM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

American Third Position, or America First?

I think the canonical meme reference at this point is "You know who else liked Charles Lindbergh??..."
posted by gimonca at 11:09 AM on June 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

do sentiments like these ebb and flow? Should I continue to worry that such sentiments will gain a major foothold, or can I assure myself that though they may appear periodically they usually peter out?

This is just a cyclical thing. The modern Tea Party/militia movement is pretty much just the same thing that happened the last time a Democrat was in the white house; having a black Democrat, and one who once met a Muslim, in the White House just makes the crazies even crazier. They'll probably do some actual damage within the next few years in the form of terrorist attacks or criminal behavior, but the instant the Republicans retake the White House, these losers who make up these neofascist movements will mostly just melt back into the GOP, same as they did when GW Bush replaced Clinton.

Now, should a Democrat succeed Obama, we could possibly be in for some bad shit on a scale beyond a few bombings and killings.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:13 AM on June 13, 2010 [9 favorites]

Particularly amused by their statement indicating that the world is 92% 'minority.' Glad to know they're fighting for the 8% majority...
posted by DrSawtooth at 11:14 AM on June 13, 2010 [13 favorites]

And if they're TOO successful, areas of the US where the political scene is still relatively sane will have to take a hard look at secession. So that's a win as well

So you're basically a New England supremacist? (Not that there's anything wrong with that)
posted by atrazine at 11:14 AM on June 13, 2010

What we really need to import, instead of the asshole BNP, is the Best Party (Besti Flokkurinn - here's their thoroughly awesome theme song), from Iceland.

From wiki: "The party has from the beginning admitted that it will not honour any of the promises given prior to elections. It claims all other parties are secretly corrupt, so it promises to be openly corrupt. Among its original goals was to satirize common themes in Icelandic politics and mimicking the standard phrases, idioms and jargon used by Icelandic politicians."

They won the mayoral election in Reykjavík recently, with a platform that included "free towels in all city swimming pools, a polar bear for the city zoo, a Disneyland at Vatnsmýri, the capital's airport and a drug-free Althing by 2020".
posted by dammitjim at 11:14 AM on June 13, 2010 [5 favorites]

From an A3p commentator:

This is good, let's keep it going. White Christians, as many of us know, are a kind and usually fairly tolerant group of people; and that's why we've been pushed around for some time now. It's time to start pushing back. The US was the unquestionable leader of the world in the 40s and 50s. Who was running the country back then?

Jews and the Illuminati? Do I win the Inconsistent Racist prize now or something? Fantastic use of frightened white girl clip art for the "Minority Population Growing in the United States" "article" as well. I give the entire site four swastikas out of five.

Fucking idiots.
posted by joe lisboa at 11:15 AM on June 13, 2010 [15 favorites]

I hate Illinois Nazis.
posted by Skeptic at 11:16 AM on June 13, 2010 [11 favorites]

Who was running the country back then?

Sophisticated, solid establishment men from top universities, guys like Obama.
posted by atrazine at 11:23 AM on June 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

I used to play Spot the Inconsistent Racist while browsing the Stormfront forums. Then, I realized that, much like in a Final Fantasy game, it's very hard lose, and I lost interest.
posted by ignignokt at 11:24 AM on June 13, 2010

(Er, but not very hard to omit an infinitive.)
posted by ignignokt at 11:25 AM on June 13, 2010

The last couple of years there seems to have been a general resurgence of far-right anti-immigrant sentiments in many parts of the world...

This is the pattern. There are always a small percent of people who blame somebody, and somebody will always be someone different. Skin color and religious symbols are easy targets, but ask the Irish how much good being white, christian and english speaking did them.

In good times, these idiots get little traction. In bad times, however, people get depressed and angry, and when someone comes up with something along the line of "You'd have a job if it weren't for those fucking Martians...." and suddenly, they start getting traction.

The worse the economy, the more traction it gets -- more people are depressed and angry, and they're more depressed and angrier as it gets worse. Now, add in hopelessness -- they become convinced that things won't change, so they don't really care if they survive. Now you have angry people who are willing to fight because they don't really care if they die.

Then we get the fucktards, now flying high, with the "If we just kill all the fucking martians, and the fucking government who supports the fucking martians" and suddenly, things get very ugly very quickly.

This is why the extremist's first target is the moderate. Moderates provide moderation and rationality, which directly cuts the fuel off from the extremist. The extremist goal is to remove the moderates -- force the opponent to one extreme, and get rid of those in the middle. Suddenly, the *only* message is "Kill the Martians, and we're just the government you need to kill the Martians."

Oh, I mean Jews. Or Slavs. Or city dwelling Cambodians. Or any number of minorities in the past. This is an old trick, killing the people who don't look like you in bad times goes all the way back to ancient Egypt, if not further.

Hitler and Pol Pot were just reading a script that has been read hundreds of times before -- and, it seems, we're now in rehearsals for the next big production of Kill The Minority.
posted by eriko at 11:26 AM on June 13, 2010 [12 favorites]

So you're basically a New England supremacist? (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

Yuh.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:35 AM on June 13, 2010

Immigration reform != racism != Nazism != Fascism.

Very rarely does "immigration reform" not equal racism.

But these fuckers aren't stopping at immigration reform. Look at their front-page articles and tell me that they're not Nazis with better PR:

"Minority Population Growing in the United States"

"Extent of Mexican Colonization"
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:41 AM on June 13, 2010 [8 favorites]

It would be great to find a White Nationalist Party that didn't take the role of victims, "All right I'm happy to report that while we might have one of Them as President, things are still really shitty for minorities. White People who run and own things is just way off the charts and I'd like to thank Timothy for putting that presentation together, it is really great to keep things in perspective. Also there's a call for papers on the topic of The Long 19th Century, specifically we're looking at places you would't expect the White man to have an influence, but did, I know but if it wasn't an arcane topic we wouldn't need be asking for papers, now would we? Before we'd go I'd like to point out how condescendingly the main stream media covered the Iran-Turkey-Brazil nuclear deal. We really need to remind them that these are big people issues and really should be left to us ..."
posted by geoff. at 11:42 AM on June 13, 2010 [11 favorites]

Tea bagging, Third Position?!

Oh you naughty little racist, I think I know exactly what you're craving from the 'Others'.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:45 AM on June 13, 2010 [5 favorites]

I'm always kind of fascinated by the defining-down of Nazism. People who find discomfort in the similarity between their beliefs and those of Adolf Hitler ought to contemplate why they feel uncomfortable about that rather than trying to pretend that the Nazis did not believe the things they quite explicitly believed in.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:46 AM on June 13, 2010 [11 favorites]

"We want an America that is recognizable to us, one that we can feel comfortable in."

Wow.
posted by davebush at 11:46 AM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

They're against the Federal Reserve, multinationals and the war in Iraq.

Other than that, their platform is 100% GOP.

This doesn't mean that A3P is moderate. Actually, it means that the GOP platform is virtually indistinguishable from a Fascist platform.
posted by Avenger at 11:56 AM on June 13, 2010 [15 favorites]

I'm not sure I want a bunch of white nationalists deciding who our "best and brightest" are.
posted by contessa at 12:07 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I thought we had a rule of not linking to stormfront....
posted by odinsdream at 12:12 PM on June 13, 2010

We usually don't on the front page, but I can think of few things more relevant to a discussion of a fascist party than what other fascists think of them.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:14 PM on June 13, 2010

Stormfront on the "A3P"
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 7:31 PM on June 13 [+] [!]

Just tried clicking on that link at work and failed for the following reason: "The Websense category "Racism and Hate" is filtered." I suddenly have warm and glowing feelings towards my employer.
posted by jonnyploy at 12:25 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

We usually don't on the front page, but I can think of few things more relevant to a discussion of a fascist party than what other fascists think of them.

I agree it's entirely relevant, but that doesn't mean it should be linked to. Metafilter's main page has quite a bit of weight with regard to search engines.
posted by odinsdream at 12:30 PM on June 13, 2010

but that doesn't mean it should be linked to. Metafilter's main page has quite a bit of weight with regard to search engines.

I was not aware of any MeFi rule about not linking to Stormfront, and it's really inconsequential to the other material in my post. If a mod can kill the link, I'd be okay with that.
posted by edguardo at 12:34 PM on June 13, 2010

Deleted that and the other Stormfront link, I know they're sort of germane, but we'd really really like to not give them any traffic whatsoever. People can Google for relevant info.
posted by jessamyn at 12:42 PM on June 13, 2010 [9 favorites]

That logo does suck. The red "stripes" look like bloody slashes. Maybe that's what they were going for?

Well, they do want to reintroduce corporal punishment in prisons. And the logo does truly suck. Swastikas were way snappier.
posted by jokeefe at 12:51 PM on June 13, 2010

Also, a quick read through of their platform shows some interesting omissions-- there is not a single mention of the word "abortion", for example.
posted by jokeefe at 12:52 PM on June 13, 2010

Very rarely does "immigration reform" not equal racism.

Er, you only mean one kind of immigration reform, I think. The other kind, where we have a sane policy and recognize that it's a good thing and don't make it hard for people who want to work here and stay and so on... that one isn't racism. (Well, the A3P people would argue it's anti-white, I guess....).

Not everyone who talks about immigration reform is a teabagger. Hell, even some of the republicans used to talk about it in a saner way before they went nutso (McCain, for example).
posted by wildcrdj at 12:55 PM on June 13, 2010

>Very rarely does "immigration reform" not equal racism.

I am generally in favor of relaxing restrictions on immigration. What is my position called?
posted by LogicalDash at 12:58 PM on June 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

American Third Position, or America First?

and Obama, bowing to popular sentiment, just canceled his diplomatic trip to Asia... because, you know, America first. :/

Not saying the oil spill isn't a big deal, but rather that, well, the President's already said the U.S. government doesn't have the skills to deal with it.

So he'd serve American interests better by keeping our Asian friends friendly, no?

But I guess that's a little too causally complex for the typical American voter. 'America First' as a popular rallying cry is still going strong.
posted by edguardo at 1:01 PM on June 13, 2010

So, if AP3 comes to power, all the non-white people who died defending the USA will be restored to life? That would be fair.
posted by Cranberry at 1:02 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I see that the third position in this list would be a funny comparison.
posted by not_on_display at 1:05 PM on June 13, 2010

Yeah, many of the comments are prime LOLNazis material. From "Victoria":

Whenever anyone says "White people don't have a distinct culture," what they really mean is that Anglo-Saxons don't. But they're mistaken, because Anglo-Saxon is the normative default of American culture. Every every homecoming festival, every Thanksgiving, every small-town parade is a celebration of our Anglo-Saxon heritage.

These good fellows celebrate their 1/4th Scottish ancestry one day a year by wearing kilts, but the other 364 days they're usually wearing traditional Anglo-Saxon garb, be it polo shirts or business suits.

I thought that traditional Anglo-Saxon garb was mostly woolen tunics and stockings, but I could be wrong.
posted by jokeefe at 1:07 PM on June 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

This is actually the third try of a bunch of skinheads to create a bland front group. This sort of thing has been going on ever since the deaths of Willis Carto (Liberty Lobby and Spotlight), William Pierce (Nat. Alliance and author of The Turner Diaries and Hunter) and William Butler (Aryan Nations). Essentially, these efforts at legitimacy through deceit are a rejection of the overtly revolutionary white supremacy of Pierce and an attempt to kickstart a new try at the mainstreaming strategies of Carto and Butler.

It's a point of huge contention in white supremacy, since the mainstreaming vs revolutionary factions are themselves populated by people who all want to be Der Fueher. I mean, seriously folks, who wants to be Sgt Schultz when you could be Commandant Klink? It does cause some organizational friction. Stormfront is most revolutionary Pierce suckups, so they won't be thrilled with this dilution of racial purity and attempt at ballot access.

Third position wiki article here and the article on the party here.

Three expose articles by the OC Times detailing the main assclowns and their colorful (heh) and sordid pasts: 1, 2, 3.

And the scum also rises in AZ.
posted by warbaby at 1:14 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

Deleted that and the other Stormfront link, I know they're sort of germane

I don't know why, but I read that last word as "germans" first time round.
posted by MuffinMan at 1:44 PM on June 13, 2010

Some white racists have been trying to sound like just another reasonable group for years now. I like to read the more rabid pages, so I can see what language they are using. Then I go to the less rabid pages, note the same language and move on.

I practise a religion that attracts a lot of these assholes, so I've learned to spot them out of self-defense.

Basically, they are loosers blaming their lossage on everyone but them.
posted by QIbHom at 1:55 PM on June 13, 2010

Why is it that, even though I know these people are idiots, I find their opinions hurtful?
posted by bardophile at 2:09 PM on June 13, 2010

Edguardo, don't call Korean-Americans "slippery slopes". WTF?
posted by ryanrs at 2:18 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Deleted that and the other Stormfront link, I know they're sort of germane

I don't know why, but I read that last word as "germans" first time round.

I know why!
posted by Sys Rq at 2:21 PM on June 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

I am having a relaxing sunday afternoon.

I am not reading any of these links.
posted by desjardins at 2:22 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

Edguardo, don't call Korean-Americans "slippery slopes". WTF?

I mean, if you let just one of them into your exclusive white people club, then there will be a precedent for kimchi and other un-American activities.

The fabric of American society cannot endure the introduction of spicy cabbage.
posted by edguardo at 2:24 PM on June 13, 2010

ryanrs: "Edguardo, don't call Korean-Americans "slippery slopes". WTF?"

Pretty sure he's quoting the forum he linked to, although the single topic he chose didn't have that particular slur.
posted by boo_radley at 2:25 PM on June 13, 2010

Actually, I don't think the A3P is aware of the particular logical fallacy I'm making reference to.
posted by edguardo at 2:28 PM on June 13, 2010

Pretty sure he's quoting the forum he linked to

So racist slurs are ok if you're quoting a white nationalist web forum? Well then, ok-dokey.
posted by ryanrs at 2:33 PM on June 13, 2010

Um.... I doubt that edguardo meant "slope" as a pun on a racist slur against asians. I think it was more "slippery slope", as in, if you take a few steps off the edge, you might slide all the way down.

Drawing any other conclusion other than ryanrs' obvious joke comment is probably uncalled for.
posted by hippybear at 2:33 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

edguardo: "Edguardo, don't call Korean-Americans "slippery slopes". WTF?

I mean, if you let just one of them into your exclusive white people club, then there will be a precedent for kimchi and other un-American activities.

The fabric of American society cannot endure the introduction of spicy cabbage."

I've always found it a bit amusing that the skinheads listened to "White Power Metal"... I mean, they want "white culture untainted by the darkies" right? But what is Metal? A variant of Rock? And what is Rock derived from? Blues?

I mean, if you're gonna go with an all-white music form, shouldn't you just stick with like... Bach and Beethoven? Maybe Polka.

I remember reading about some sort of white power rap a few years back, like, huh?
posted by symbioid at 2:38 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Before you want to give that quote the benefit of the doubt, consider the context:

1) The quote advocated stripping Korean-Americans of their US citizenship.
2) It was from an explicitly racist white nationalist web forum.
3) Accompanied by links to stormfront.

Dude, of course it's racist.
posted by ryanrs at 2:39 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I've always found it a bit amusing that the skinheads listened to "White Power Metal"... I mean, they want "white culture untainted by the darkies" right? But what is Metal? A variant of Rock? And what is Rock derived from? Blues?

Oh man, skinheads would just blow your mind.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:48 PM on June 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

(I mean, they started out Jamaican!)
posted by Sys Rq at 2:51 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

A quick peek at urbandictionary informs me that 'slope' is indeed a racial slur directed at Asians. I had never heard this before.

My bad. I made an unfortunate choice of words to summarize the sentiment on their forums.

I'm not a racist, just out of the loop.
posted by edguardo at 3:01 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

I'm not a racist, just out of the loop.

There is something really, really offensive about that sentence, but I'm pretty sure it's unintentional so I'm not going to mention it.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:09 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

Sys Rq : There is something really, really offensive about that sentence, but I'm pretty sure it's unintentional so I'm not going to mention it.

Agreed. The very notion that you can count as an "accidental" racist should offend us all.

_{/ My breath... Not holdin' it.}
posted by pla at 3:29 PM on June 13, 2010

My breath... Not holdin' it.

Sys Rq is kidding.
posted by joe lisboa at 3:41 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Oh, thank God. I was wondering what I was going to watch now that "The Real Housewives of Orange County" was on hiatus!


So far my favorite quote:
Ultimately we might lose America, but take back Europe.
An America without Anglo-Saxons will be much like Mexico.

Well, there you go then.
posted by quakerjono at 3:42 PM on June 13, 2010

I mean, if you're gonna go with an all-white music form, shouldn't you just stick with like... Bach and Beethoven? Maybe Polka.

Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician (Burzum) and infamous racist/murderer, came to this same conclusion: that metal was tainted by its negro origins and thus racially impure, and he was going to create Aryan music. This turned out to be 3 or 4 note keyboard loops repeated for 4-5 minutes. It's some of the most hilariously bad music ever recorded.
posted by DecemberBoy at 3:43 PM on June 13, 2010 [8 favorites]

Here's my thought process on reading the FPP:

The newly-formed American Third Position -- hmm...sounds like a political party of some type...might be interesting


aspires to be the United States' -- yep, definitely a political party...hopefully they offer a decent alternative to the Dems and GOP

premier white nationalist party. -- fuck those guys.

Why can't we have a premier party that is sensible, viable, and not-corporate owned? Yeah, I know it's a pipe dream.
posted by snwod at 3:43 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Before you want to give that quote the benefit of the doubt, consider the context:

Yes, but it wasn't a quote. It was a summary. It's already been mentioned that those words aren't in the linked forum, and edguardo himself says it was his own word choice.
posted by hippybear at 4:01 PM on June 13, 2010

Dear God, it was an accidental slur on Edguardo's part. It's not exactly a very common-use denigration, after all. In fact, the only place I've heard it before is in the Chris Walken scene in Pulp Fiction, where it confused me even then.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:29 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

DecemberBoy...

Any links? I'm curious as to what the hell it sounded like.

Also -- Is neo-folk fascist?
posted by symbioid at 4:34 PM on June 13, 2010

BitterOldPunk: "So. "Third Position". That's when you do your sister up against the outhouse wall, right?"

I think it's called "The Bucket Method". Its a standing position where the man stands on a bucket and when his eyes start to cross, the woman kicks the bucket out from under him.

Also re: ATP - same rhythm, different drummer.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 4:40 PM on June 13, 2010

And I'd had such a lovely day (going to the actual subject of the FPP.)

How a group can embrace free-market principles as some ultimate goal for society while then demonizing their results frustrates the hell out of me, intellectually and emotionally. Just, you know, for starters. If illegal immigrants are "taking 'your' jobs" then let's at least look at the possible root causes for why that might be happening:

1.) They're better at those jobs
2.) They're better at seeking those jobs
3.) They're willing to do those jobs for a fraction of the pay you'd be willing to take, and to take that pay under the table so that their employers can dodge other overhead issues.
4.) Fuck you because you weren't going to be doing those jobs anyway and even if you somehow magically wished all the non-whites away and did do the damn jobs then agriculture prices, for one, would skyrocket leaving you unable to feed your white families and then you'd find some way to blame that on the "Other" as well.

But hey hey, Free Market rules and all that. Fucking ignorant racist bastards.

Now free trade is a different matter, of course, but even if you're theoretically in favor of globalization (as I am, in a general sense) you have to know that the super-long-term effects will be to normalize international economic discrepancies, and the immediate term is going to see a lot of bloody transition. But you also know that it'll be inevitable, that the nation with all the wealth is going to lose a lot of that wealth in the transition, and that it is our duty as the most powerful to shepherd the process in a way which causes the fewest problems and best deals with those problems when they arise. (We have not, so far, been great at this, but it probably could have been much worse.)

If all of this seems off-topic it's because A3P doesn't think about these broader implications of their platform and prejudice at all. And you can't argue with a fool. But those with the money and power who are feeding illogical positions to the fools know that, at least, you can make a large part of the populace equally foolish, and that's just as good.

As I said, I was having a pretty good day before this.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:46 PM on June 13, 2010 [10 favorites]

Uh, I was just ribbing the guy. The sentence is only offensive when you (or I) impose an external context onto it.

Lesson: An awful lot of idioms can come across as completely terrible when viewed in a race relations context. Use them carefully!
posted by Sys Rq at 5:02 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

Here in Sweden we have at least two relatively new parties whose main agenda lie in reforming immigration policies and have strong words against immigrants, Islam, and all that involves. A lot of other European states have also experienced increases in distrust towards immigrants in general.

Racism in Sweden, unfortunately, has a long history. If nobody much thinks about it, it's only because Swedes had so little exposure to other cultures, for historical and geopolitical reasons. But racism against, f.ex. Finns has existed for a very long time (all empires employ racism). Same with Laps (Samerna) or smaller groups like Romas. Of course that's small potatoes compared to a lot of countries, but again, that's an accident of history and geography. External immigration from outside of Scandinavia didn't get started until the 60's, so it took a few years, but by the 70's (which is how far my memory reaches), racism against foreigners was quite common. Of course, racism is always stupid, but I truly found it astonishing when my fellow Swedes would refer to a brown haired, blue-eyed, white skinned Yugolav as "svartskalle" (literally: black skull). Basically, it was a combination of anti-foreigner and racist sentiments, of the most ignorant variety, based upon misconceptions about proclivity towards criminality (fanned by tabloids), or cultural issues, even misunderstandings ("they occupy all the laundry machines and cut in line!!!!ONE!"). So it wasn't particularly sophisticated or deep racism, more a kind of stupid ignorance. What changed as the 80's and 90's wore on, is immigration from Latin America (refugees from Pinochet's Chile), and the Middle East - and here, it seems the racism got more of a top billing compared to simple anti-foreigner feeling (dark people!!!UNO!), unfortunately made easier by inept policies (grouping immigrants in giant housing projects). So, I'd say what happened in Sweden is a kind of evolution of racism, rather than strict intensification - but I could be wrong, as I haven't been following things much since the oughts.
posted by VikingSword at 5:03 PM on June 13, 2010

Well, I've posted this before, mostly re Glenn Beck, but much of it still applies:

Prophets of Deceit, Studies in Prejudice Series, Volume 5, 1949

The agitator roams freely over every area of economic life. He may begin anywhere at all. Too much help is being extended to foreign nations. "If we have any money to offer for nothing, or to loan, or to give away, we had better give it to our own first. Of course, that is old fashioned." Not only are foreigners taking our money, they also threaten our jobs. "People born in America have to commit suicide because they have nothing to eat while refugees get their jobs."

Exclusion: The agitator suggests that there is an abundance of material and spiritual goods, but that the people do not get what they are entitled to. The American taxpayer's money is used to help everyone but himself —"we feed foreigners," the agitator complains, while we neglect our own millions of unemployed.

The agitator must know that he can hardly expect to achieve significant results without reaching a wider audience; his ambitions are certainly not confined to his present groups. But he seems to sense that such initial audiences reflect on a small scale what might under certain social conditions characterize large masses of people. The beginnings of European fascism were equally modest, its original followers recruited from similar strata of the population. The American agitator tends to behave as if his present performance were merely a rehearsal and his audience merely paradigmatic. He can afford to be "unserious." In an economic crisis the distinction between unemployables and unemployed merges, the middle class loses its security, and the youth its confidence in the future. The possibility that a situation will arise in which large numbers of people would be susceptible to his psychological manipulation, seems to provide the agitator with the impetus to continue his present small-scale operations at the head of his legion of misfits and malcontents.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:25 PM on June 13, 2010

Other obligatory Mr. Show sketch.
posted by wobh at 5:29 PM on June 13, 2010

It wouldn't make them any more attractive if they were, but I don't think these guys are even actual third positionists- or if they are, they're concealing it. "Third position" is a term that refers to, more or less, the left wing of fascist ideology, and the term is used because they claim to be a "third position" that is beyond left and right. That actually seems to be more or less true for some groups- the National Bolsheviks in Russia, for example, really do seem to be both far-right and far-left at once. Generally, third positionists are pretty fiercely opposed to capitalism, if not really for the same reasons those on the far left are.

A3P, though, appear to be just bog-standard American-style far-right white supremacists. As Avenger said, take out the more paleo-libertarian aspects and make the racism less open and you have something very close to the GOP platform, in essence. Actual third positionists are most definitely not free market types, and would probably have something in the platform about overthrowing capitalism and nationalizing industry- these guys, in their platform, seem to be steering clear of anything that might make the average Tea Partier too uncomfortable, which is probably quite deliberate.

Also -- Is neo-folk fascist?

Depends on the band, but as a whole, no. As a genre, neofolk tends to be interested in the same kinds of things far-rightists often are (which in this case, are not the specifically nasty elements of the far-right like racism, but things like paganism and European history and such), and so that unfortunately attracts far-rightists to it. However, there are plenty of neofolk bands who aren't even rightist, let alone fascist, and some who are outright anti-fascist. (See, for example, the band Sieben, and their song "Rite Against the Right.") I find that martial industrial tends to be a bit more questionable as a whole, though it's still not universally far-right. I'd say the only universally far-right genres are the ones where that's the entire point- i.e. RAC, or NSBM.
posted by a louis wain cat at 5:29 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

I was once accused of supporting fascism because I listen to KMFDM.

...I still don't get it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:46 PM on June 13, 2010

I was once accused of supporting fascism because I listen to KMFDM.

...I still don't get it.

Man, I know the feeling.

(Nihil is great, btw)
posted by edguardo at 5:48 PM on June 13, 2010

No Mercy for the Masses, Pope Guilty!
posted by Navelgazer at 5:56 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't share a future where I have to eat every meal at Cracker Barrel. That said, let's try and enforce borders and stuff like most other countries do. Sincerly, America
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:07 PM on June 13, 2010

pyrex: I think you'll find that as the proportion of non-white immigrants increases, you will see increasing resentment of the welfare/social democratic state. That's been the experience in the US-- many people think that the US never became a social democratic entity because of racism. See this article for more information on trends in the US.
posted by wuwei at 7:05 PM on June 13, 2010

I remember reading about some sort of white power rap a few years back, like, huh?

Christian White and his Aryan Reggae Band.
posted by acb at 7:06 PM on June 13, 2010 [3 favorites]

I'm always kind of fascinated by the defining-down of Nazism. People who find discomfort in the similarity between their beliefs and those of Adolf Hitler ought to contemplate why they feel uncomfortable about that rather than trying to pretend that the Nazis did not believe the things they quite explicitly believed in.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:46 AM on June 13 [8 favorites +] [!]

Yet I am always fascinated by those that continue to profess a belief in Nazism. They lost so badly. I worked in the Spreckel's sugar factory in Tracy Ca just after the filming of California Reich. Fringe element 1977 fringe element 2010.
posted by pianomover at 7:07 PM on June 13, 2010

Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician (Burzum) and infamous racist/murderer, came to this same conclusion: that metal was tainted by its negro origins and thus racially impure, and he was going to create Aryan music.

I thought it was because guitars were banned in prison.
posted by acb at 7:07 PM on June 13, 2010

"Why is it that, even though I know these people are idiots, I find their opinions hurtful?"

I don't know! I'm the same way. I never expect to get hurt and then someone busts out some "mixed babies are uglier" something and :(
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 7:08 PM on June 13, 2010

Also -- Is neo-folk fascist?

The BNP was selling CDs of traditional English folk music a while ago. This directly led to a group of folk musicians starting an anti-fascist group to oppose the appropriation of their genre.
posted by acb at 7:10 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

If illegal immigrants are "taking 'your' jobs" then let's at least look at the possible root causes for why that might be happening:

"Yeah. I wouldn’t mind them if they actually worked and didn’t take all of our jobs, basically."
posted by acb at 7:11 PM on June 13, 2010

I was once accused of supporting fascism because I listen to KMFDM.

Good thing they didn't see you listening to Front 242 or VNV Nation.
posted by acb at 7:14 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

"mixed babies are uglier"

Well if this isn't the 2+2=5 of racist doublethink I don't know what is. Have they even seen "mixed" babies?
posted by Navelgazer at 7:30 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

I thought it was because guitars were banned in prison.

It was, but he had to make it sound like he was doing it for a reason other than "I am being a polite and compliant prisoner."
posted by ignignokt at 7:45 PM on June 13, 2010

Good thing they didn't see you listening to Front 242 or VNV Nation.

I listened to three hours of VNV today and that was the best decision I've made all week.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:59 PM on June 13, 2010

If I'm remembering my history correctly, didn't Hitler subvert the communist street gangs and channel their anger to a new direction? Do you think it would be possible to try some psychology on these guys and maybe channel their anger to a new direction? Plant some memes in their heads that will take root and turn them around. As was mentioned already, they do seem to like KMFDM, even though anyone who takes the time to listen to the lyrics must realize that they are far-left not far-right , so that gives us a head start. I mean obviously the majority are just ignorant racists who are beyond help, but some of them might be amenable to change. I'm thinking if someone would go there and hang out with them and change the focus of talk to things we could actually agree on and delicately point out their inconsistencies maybe we could give one or two an epiphany. I would attempt it myself, but I'm not subtle enough to pull it off. (not to mention I don't want to get cooties on my computer)
posted by ambulocetus at 8:25 PM on June 13, 2010

(not to mention I don't want to get cooties on my computer)

You may have fucked that up by using Hitler as an example as to what we should be doing.

(half-joking. I understood your point.)
posted by Navelgazer at 8:30 PM on June 13, 2010

Now... for the proper thread...

For the Mr. Show Trifecta Operation: Hell on Earth (which is what i initially thought the first Mr Show link was).

------
re: wuwei's link...

The idea that race plays a role and that as (Western) European countries might be less homogenized through immigration and that might lead to racist destruction of social programs is an intriguing thought, and that would completely fucking suck ass, and I hope to god it's not true...
posted by symbioid at 9:32 PM on June 13, 2010

The Nazis are alway updating their facebooks.
posted by nola at 10:00 PM on June 13, 2010

The Nazis are alway updating their facebooks.

As a matter of fact.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:06 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

From the forum thread:
Also, I think this person simply sound like the classic young person who is still very indoctrinated by the electronic rabbi to fully come out of his political shell.

Good sir I will have you know that the best teachers I had in high school were Mrs. Olson (English), Mr. Klappert (PhysEd), and ROBO-BEN-ROBO™ by Y.E.S.H.I.V.A. Corp (Indoctrination).
posted by maus at 10:24 PM on June 13, 2010 [2 favorites]

If it helps, internet fraud, I think mixed babies are the some of the most beautiful babies, and turn out to be some of the most beautiful humans.

I'm sure this means I hate white people, or something.

[NOT SOME-OF-MY-BEST-FRIENDS-ARE-MIXED-BABYIST]
posted by tzikeh at 10:35 PM on June 13, 2010 [1 favorite]

"mixed babies are uglier"

I especially like how, genetically speaking, this is absolutely not true. Greater genetic separation = sexier baby.
posted by cthuljew at 11:01 PM on June 13, 2010

I think finding babies sexy is maladaptive.
posted by fleacircus at 11:18 PM on June 13, 2010 [8 favorites]

Yay I am glad you like mixed babies because all my babies will be mixed babies! I can't help it! I gots the mixed eggs! Even the purest Aryan sperms are no match for my scrambled gametes!
posted by internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 at 11:38 PM on June 13, 2010

But you have the Tea Party already!

These are coffee drinkers. McDonalds I suspect.
posted by juiceCake at 6:23 AM on June 14, 2010

speaking of OPENBOOK facebook update searches...

this seems to be an up-to-date list of utterly detestable racist garbage.

"p.s. if this offends you, feel free to leave me a hateful message and then delete me! LOL"
posted by Hammond Rye at 8:12 AM on June 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

I wish I was mixed. Instead, I'm just a mutt of European origin (which is to say white).
posted by grubi at 8:42 AM on June 14, 2010

>"Very rarely does "immigration reform" not equal racism."

I am generally in favor of relaxing restrictions on immigration. What is my position called?

I'm all about the Federal Government not being able to step in and overthrow a state's relaxation of drug trade enforcement laws, however I know damn well that 'States Rights' is a codeword for 'Codified Bigotry'. I'm all about familial love and raising children well, but I know damn well 'Family Values' is a codeword for 'Codified Bigotry'. I'm all about reforming our various immigration policies to allow greater transparency and cultural integration instead of other-izing a large chunk of our population into easily exploited and disposed-of manual labor, but I know damn well 'Immigration Reform' is a codeword for 'Codified Bigotry'.
posted by FatherDagon at 8:50 AM on June 14, 2010 [4 favorites]

contessa : I'm not sure I want a bunch of white nationalists deciding who our "best and brightest" are.

I don't know, I think they provide a really useful function in this regard; White nationalists define that which is neither the best nor the brightest, See, the pool to have to dig through is smaller already.
posted by quin at 3:26 PM on June 14, 2010

FatherDagon : I know damn well that 'States Rights' is a codeword for 'Codified Bigotry'.

Yeah, I know, right? That whole "American experiment" thing, what a crock! <facepalm>

If you don't like Arizona's new laws (for as long as they last), don't live there. And if by some miracle Arizona has the strongest economic growth in the nation over the next decade, well, that says something.

If you support gay marriage, move to a state that allows it. And a generation from now, you can either go "nyeah nyeah, told you society wouldn't crumble", or you can pray for a UN humanitarian relief effort to relocate you to Georgia.

If you don't like income taxes; If you don't believe in capitol punishment; If you don't like full-strength beer; If (as you brought up) you support legalizing at least some uses of marijuana; If you don't believe in "three strikes" laws; If you believe naturopaths should have the right to prescribe; If you want binding citizens' ballot initiatives... You have a few states you can pick from that differ in all those subcategories (and thousands more!) of "states' rights" law.

But to write all that off as a thin veil for racism?

Fail.
posted by pla at 6:39 PM on June 14, 2010

I know damn well that 'States Rights' is a codeword for 'Codified Bigotry'.
Yeah, I know, right? That whole "American experiment" thing, what a crock!

I'm not sure if you're unfamiliar with the term as it's frequently used in the United States or if you're just saying that you disagree with peoples' assessments.

Other than gun control and abortion (and to a lesser extent marijuana legislation) much of the "states rights" arguments are in fact used to support the states' rights to suppress freedom of speech and the separation of church and state and to promote institutionalized racism and heteronormativity via. bizarre voting restrictions and other disenfranchisement. It has specifically been used as a code word for segregation by notable Southern politicians.

Many people argue that letting any states deny basic civil rights to their populations is not a degree to which states rights should extent, that it is in fact the purpose of a federal government to determine minimum rights for all citizens to which all citizens deserve by benefit of being Americans. What we're seeing is people fighting over where that line should be drawn. People don't holler about states rights when people are given too many rights, in most cases [though perhaps not for gun control].
posted by jessamyn at 6:48 PM on June 14, 2010 [2 favorites]

Bigotry is not something to be tolerated. Bigotry is something to be stamped out with the maximum possible force.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:53 PM on June 14, 2010

jessamyn : I'm not sure if you're unfamiliar with the term as it's frequently used in the United States or if you're just saying that you disagree with peoples' assessments.

This exemplifies why you so frequently consider me antagonistic to many threads. Outside the sheltered liberal socialist world-view, you'd find precious few Americans who hear "States' rights" and pop right off into "racism" land. You might lead most people to that particular trough with vague references to the Confederate South; but without getting to ask leading questions, you'd get mostly responses about gun control, taxes, and maybe gay marriage.

Or to put it more bluntly - Would you say that the 14th amendment revoked the 10th?
posted by pla at 7:13 PM on June 14, 2010

You're either trolling or too dumb to dress yourself.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:33 PM on June 14, 2010

Outside the sheltered liberal socialist world-view, you'd find precious few Americans who hear "States' rights" and pop right off into "racism" land.

My feeling is that anyone with a liberal arts background is at least cognizant of the Civil War and possibly the Civil Rights act and maybe Richard Nixon or Ronald Reagan. Since I'm on a web site where people are educated, I speak to their level. All I'm saying is that's how the term is colloquially understood by people who study this sort of thing. If I'm talking to people with a different world view I'd talk about it differently. The Googleable term for you is "Southern Strategy" [though it's debated somewhat]

I am also saying that if you are not a troll, do not call my world view sheltered, or socialist, or do it in MetaTalk. You seem to be unclear how to have a discussion without insulting people.
posted by jessamyn at 7:34 PM on June 14, 2010 [3 favorites]

Any links? I'm curious as to what the hell it sounded like.

Here's a track from one of his two "Aryan" keyboard albums (and as others have mentioned, they were also made because the only instrument Varg had access to was a keyboard). Don't listen to the whole 9 minutes - it's just that same arrangement of keyboard presets looping over and over.
posted by DecemberBoy at 8:15 PM on June 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

Outside the sheltered liberal socialist world-view, you'd find precious few Americans who hear "States' rights" and pop right off into "racism" land. You might lead most people to that particular trough with vague references to the Confederate South; but without getting to ask leading questions, you'd get mostly responses about gun control, taxes, and maybe gay marriage.

Buuh? It's "sheltered" to have taken 11th grade US History?
posted by desuetude at 8:26 PM on June 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

The whole "Don't like the laws there? Move" bit is pretty annoying. If someone likes where they live, they have just as much ability to fight for what they believe in as anyone else.
posted by waraw at 8:32 PM on June 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's basically another way of saying that injustice and bigotry are fine things and that wanting them to change is wrong. It's one of the more thoroughly morally bankrupt positions a person can have about US politics, because it basically sets up anybody who objects to an injust status quo as a villain.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:06 AM on June 15, 2010

waraw : The whole "Don't like the laws there? Move" bit is pretty annoying. If someone likes where they live, they have just as much ability to fight for what they believe in as anyone else.

True - "None".

If I made the laws, the human population would drastically decrease. If many here made the laws, I'd rot in a cage just for thinking that. But someone we might both vote for for radically different reasons tempers those extremes to give us something more-or-less functional. We might both have major problems with the existing system, but we can't deny that it has made it possible to conduct our lives in a relatively orderly, peaceful manner.


I mentioned the "American Experiment" because that, and not the insane rantings of career racists, defines the entire reason for states' rights; the ability to try out strange new ideas in fifty separate laboratories, and the best results theoretically get copied and eventually bubble up to the federal level.

Words have meanings. Those meanings can and do change over time. Perhaps I should not have used the term "sheltered", but ask yourself, do you want let the likes of David Duke lay out the semantic groundwork for your discourse?
posted by pla at 3:21 AM on June 15, 2010

The only thing that makes me want you to rot in a cage is your repeated insistence that everyone else wants you to rot in a cage.
posted by waraw at 4:52 AM on June 15, 2010 [1 favorite]

I mentioned the "American Experiment" because that, and not the insane rantings of career racists, defines the entire reason for states' rights; the ability to try out strange new ideas in fifty separate laboratories, and the best results theoretically get copied and eventually bubble up to the federal level.

Frankly, no. What you're describing has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of states' rights. Regional governance, by definition, means that you can get different laws in different parts of a country as testbeds. The issue of states' rights comes not in state autonomy, but in state supremacy. It's saying that if after that testing, gay marriage is mandated by federal authority, a state should have the right to refuse. Which is bullshit, and defeats the entire purpose of the federal system.

As someone who lives in Virginia, I take quite a bit of comfort in the fact that there are more people than just Virginians and those elected by a majority of Virginians determining what laws govern me. States' rights advocates don't think there should be.
posted by kafziel at 9:28 AM on June 15, 2010 [2 favorites]

"I'm not saying we *should* plant landmines along the border I'm just saying... we could."
posted by symbioid at 11:26 AM on June 15, 2010

Words have meanings. Those meanings can and do change over time. Perhaps I should not have used the term "sheltered", but ask yourself, do you want let the likes of David Duke lay out the semantic groundwork for your discourse?

It's definitely commendable to disagree with how radicals have changed the framing of terminology in public debate, and work against those appropriations of language. It's absolutely blinkered to pretend that it doesn't exist, or accuse anyone who does acknowledge it of kowtowing to said radicals.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:49 AM on June 15, 2010