Indian outsourcing firms find greener pastures
June 22, 2010 2:50 PM Subscribe
'As the business matures in India, companies are setting up offices in rural areas.' 'In the process, they're bringing middle-class values and modern aspirations to the tradition-bound heartland.' While we are all familiar with the arguments over the impact of outsourcing on Western countries, the impact of outsourcing on Indian society has also long been debated, and there is no doubt that it 'is spurring profound economic and social change, bringing middle-class values and modern aspirations to the tradition-bound heartland.'
'In a sexually conservative society where most marriages are still arranged by elders, call centers have earned a reputation as racy places where young men and women cavort late into the night.' 'In a case this month, a young man from a Brahmin family reportedly killed his fiancee, whom he'd met at a New Delhi call center, after his parents refused to accept her because of her lower Jaiswal caste.'
'For men, the added money and prestige can translate into attracting a better-looking, smarter, more socially prominent spouse. "My plan is to work for four years, save and get a really good wife," said Arun Kumar, 23.
For women, it may mean they don't have to settle for any man their parents push their way.
Keerthi, 22, said she's seen friends marry early, often to rather unappealing men chosen by their parents, and doesn't want that life. Her plan: work two more years, gradually loosening her parents' grip, pay her own way through graduate school and then move to the big city and never look back.
"With this salary, I can now hold them off," she said. "If you're determined, you can do things these days, even if you're a girl."'
'In a sexually conservative society where most marriages are still arranged by elders, call centers have earned a reputation as racy places where young men and women cavort late into the night.' 'In a case this month, a young man from a Brahmin family reportedly killed his fiancee, whom he'd met at a New Delhi call center, after his parents refused to accept her because of her lower Jaiswal caste.'
'For men, the added money and prestige can translate into attracting a better-looking, smarter, more socially prominent spouse. "My plan is to work for four years, save and get a really good wife," said Arun Kumar, 23.
For women, it may mean they don't have to settle for any man their parents push their way.
Keerthi, 22, said she's seen friends marry early, often to rather unappealing men chosen by their parents, and doesn't want that life. Her plan: work two more years, gradually loosening her parents' grip, pay her own way through graduate school and then move to the big city and never look back.
"With this salary, I can now hold them off," she said. "If you're determined, you can do things these days, even if you're a girl."'
Because call-center work seems like such a beatdown, generally speaking.
Versus the alternative job prospects for the average rural Indian woman, not so much.
posted by GuyZero at 3:06 PM on June 22, 2010
Versus the alternative job prospects for the average rural Indian woman, not so much.
posted by GuyZero at 3:06 PM on June 22, 2010
...for the average rural Indian woman, not so much.
True enough.
posted by jquinby at 3:08 PM on June 22, 2010
True enough.
posted by jquinby at 3:08 PM on June 22, 2010
bringing middle-class values and modern aspirations to the tradition-bound heartland.'
thought I'd repeat that for you once more
posted by infini at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
thought I'd repeat that for you once more
posted by infini at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
Ok, I got a better solution. Here's what we're going to do... We're going to stop calling the country "India" and start calling it "Native America."
Initially, this will cause confusion, but slowly the connotation will seep into the collective consciousness and, with that, a they'll see a relaxation of their cultural values. You'll start seeing men "cavorting" with women of all castes, they'll realize cricket is for chumps, they'll finally catch up on heavy metal (hopefully they can find a shortcut to bypass 1998-2001), and slowly they will become more Americanized.
After a generation, they'll become totally American: they'll start taking longer breaks, they'll finally figure out how to pronounce the letter "v", they'll form unions, and in no time at all they'll enjoy the pleasure of watching their jobs get outsourced.
Do your part.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 3:11 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Initially, this will cause confusion, but slowly the connotation will seep into the collective consciousness and, with that, a they'll see a relaxation of their cultural values. You'll start seeing men "cavorting" with women of all castes, they'll realize cricket is for chumps, they'll finally catch up on heavy metal (hopefully they can find a shortcut to bypass 1998-2001), and slowly they will become more Americanized.
After a generation, they'll become totally American: they'll start taking longer breaks, they'll finally figure out how to pronounce the letter "v", they'll form unions, and in no time at all they'll enjoy the pleasure of watching their jobs get outsourced.
Do your part.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 3:11 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Indeed, I think it depends on the context. In the context of urban America, it's "a beatdown, generally speaking". But in the context of India, urban or not, apparently it's a boon, even though, as the article stresses, outsourcing companies take measures to lessen the culture shock in rural areas by either banning late shifts altogether, or making late shifts male-only. The other good thing, seems to me, is this"
"The center has also brought Christians, Hindus and Muslims together in a state that recently saw a spate of church burnings.
"Religion stays outside the door," said Noor Fatima, 20, a Muslim and one of the center's most productive workers. "Working together really helps us understand each other, that in the end we're all Indians.""
posted by VikingSword at 3:11 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
"The center has also brought Christians, Hindus and Muslims together in a state that recently saw a spate of church burnings.
"Religion stays outside the door," said Noor Fatima, 20, a Muslim and one of the center's most productive workers. "Working together really helps us understand each other, that in the end we're all Indians.""
posted by VikingSword at 3:11 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
"the "bad" women who populate the wanton call centers of Indian TV and movies."
And then she described how she quickly "re-set" his "password" and a thrill like no other swept through me...
posted by longsleeves at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
And then she described how she quickly "re-set" his "password" and a thrill like no other swept through me...
posted by longsleeves at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
before that the bad women used to populate advertising agencies and creative industries
sensationalism with the latter link being a delicate rewrite of the first or vice versa
not saying changes aren't taking place but not saying this is the best post on that either
posted by infini at 3:28 PM on June 22, 2010
sensationalism with the latter link being a delicate rewrite of the first or vice versa
not saying changes aren't taking place but not saying this is the best post on that either
posted by infini at 3:28 PM on June 22, 2010
I wonder if being immersed in Anglophone culture causes change? I know if I had to speak another language all day and be exposed to its cultural products that would change things for me.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:08 PM on June 22, 2010
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:08 PM on June 22, 2010
Dear AskMe, I got engaged to a girl who I met at work, only now my upper-caste parents are refusing to allow me to marry, because of her lower caste. What should I do to bring the situation to a conclusion that is best for all parties?
posted by anonymous at 11:15 AM on June 23 [+] [!]
anonymous, I don't mean to be harsh, but you're not the first person to be in this situation, and you won't be the last. Why don't you stop pussyfooting around, and just KTMFA?
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:23 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by anonymous at 11:15 AM on June 23 [+] [!]
anonymous, I don't mean to be harsh, but you're not the first person to be in this situation, and you won't be the last. Why don't you stop pussyfooting around, and just KTMFA?
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:23 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Versus the alternative job prospects for the average rural Indian woman, not so much.
The 'average' rural Indian woman is barely literate, at best, and out working in the fields.
Make no mistake, the people who work in call centres are all university graduates, and if they don't already have higher degrees, then they're certainly working towards them.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:27 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
The 'average' rural Indian woman is barely literate, at best, and out working in the fields.
Make no mistake, the people who work in call centres are all university graduates, and if they don't already have higher degrees, then they're certainly working towards them.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:27 PM on June 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Outsourcing can be both beneficial as well as harmful to the society. This industry, which booms in metro cities, has caught hold of what can be called as the jugular vein. Its role is somewhat restricted to the developed cities only and can be least found in the villages and remote areas of India.
I think that second link was outsourced.
posted by infinitefloatingbrains at 6:16 PM on June 22, 2010
I think that second link was outsourced.
posted by infinitefloatingbrains at 6:16 PM on June 22, 2010
I think that second link was outsourced.
The second link was embedded in a sentence that included: "the impact of outsourcing on Indian society has also long been debated"[emp. mine] and is from 2007. The point being, that there's been a long history of debating this impact in India - and the primary link shows the evolution since 2007. In general, we are quite familiar with debating the impact of outsourcing in the West, but little is known here in the West about the impact in India, and so I thought it interesting to see that side of it.
posted by VikingSword at 7:55 PM on June 22, 2010
The second link was embedded in a sentence that included: "the impact of outsourcing on Indian society has also long been debated"[emp. mine] and is from 2007. The point being, that there's been a long history of debating this impact in India - and the primary link shows the evolution since 2007. In general, we are quite familiar with debating the impact of outsourcing in the West, but little is known here in the West about the impact in India, and so I thought it interesting to see that side of it.
posted by VikingSword at 7:55 PM on June 22, 2010
in no time at all they'll enjoy the pleasure of watching their jobs get outsourced.
In a way that is what this is, urban call centre workers are getting too expensive so they move the operation to the countryside where they can pay less.
posted by atrazine at 12:48 AM on June 23, 2010
In a way that is what this is, urban call centre workers are getting too expensive so they move the operation to the countryside where they can pay less.
posted by atrazine at 12:48 AM on June 23, 2010
I wonder if being immersed in Anglophone culture causes change?
Take into account that call centre work in India is mostly done by the middle class, as said upthread all these guys have university degrees. Middle class Indians often do substantial parts of their secondary and tertiary educations in English (which is an official language in India).
In many ways, the social and economic gulf between an urban middle class Indian and a poor illiterate from a village is larger than that between them and the first world. This is one reason why this is so significant, bringing these higher wages into rural areas is a big deal because it helps groups who to date have not benefited from outsourcing.
posted by atrazine at 1:03 AM on June 23, 2010
Take into account that call centre work in India is mostly done by the middle class, as said upthread all these guys have university degrees. Middle class Indians often do substantial parts of their secondary and tertiary educations in English (which is an official language in India).
In many ways, the social and economic gulf between an urban middle class Indian and a poor illiterate from a village is larger than that between them and the first world. This is one reason why this is so significant, bringing these higher wages into rural areas is a big deal because it helps groups who to date have not benefited from outsourcing.
posted by atrazine at 1:03 AM on June 23, 2010
I decided to Google Pakistan call centers. The first few links are interesting.
posted by atchafalaya at 2:07 AM on June 23, 2010
posted by atchafalaya at 2:07 AM on June 23, 2010
Because call-center work seems like such a beatdown, generally speaking.
It's a beatdown to you maybe, but still a group beatdown. As far as I can tell Indian offices are quite social places regardless of the nature of the work. Chatting, chai drinking, and group lunches are pretty much the norm and maybe that's a new experience for young people from the countryside, socializing with so many unrelated people in a similar age cohort.
The notable thing here is the shift in the balance of influence: young people make more money, and family influence wanes. Individuals can be independent and live on their own in cities, en masse. This is not western values exactly, this is a predictable cultural effect of changes in economic organization that has been going on since the industrial revolution in Europe.
posted by jetsetlag at 2:07 AM on June 23, 2010
It's a beatdown to you maybe, but still a group beatdown. As far as I can tell Indian offices are quite social places regardless of the nature of the work. Chatting, chai drinking, and group lunches are pretty much the norm and maybe that's a new experience for young people from the countryside, socializing with so many unrelated people in a similar age cohort.
The notable thing here is the shift in the balance of influence: young people make more money, and family influence wanes. Individuals can be independent and live on their own in cities, en masse. This is not western values exactly, this is a predictable cultural effect of changes in economic organization that has been going on since the industrial revolution in Europe.
posted by jetsetlag at 2:07 AM on June 23, 2010
Chatting, chai drinking, and group lunches are pretty much the norm
Not to mention gathering for chitchat around the water coolie.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:10 AM on June 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Not to mention gathering for chitchat around the water coolie.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:10 AM on June 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
they'll finally catch up on heavy metal
Allow me to present.... Vedic death Metal. (Also, technically, this is from the Mahabharata, not the Vedas, although it certainly is death metal in Sanskrit)
The center has also brought Christians, Hindus and Muslims together in a state that recently saw a spate of church burnings.
Sigh, this is backwards on so many levels that it actually makes me a tad angry (not at the article, but the fundies) Thing is, the Malabar / Konkan coast is one of the most ethnically diverse regions in the country; spent a part of my childhood in Mangalore, and I remember being spoken to in Tulu, Konkani, Kannada, Malayalam, Hindi and English. The Konkan coast was how India traded with the world, an unbroken legacy stretching five thousand years.
The fundies are very very recent; the tradition there was inter-mingling, not isolated silos like it is in other parts of the nation.
Dear AskMe, I got engaged to a girl who I met at work, only now my upper-caste parents are refusing to allow me to marry, because of her lower caste.
So I like explaining caste through this construct: Jatis may be grouped on whether they can share roti (food), or marry their beti (daughter) or neither.
posted by the cydonian at 3:58 AM on June 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
Allow me to present.... Vedic death Metal. (Also, technically, this is from the Mahabharata, not the Vedas, although it certainly is death metal in Sanskrit)
The center has also brought Christians, Hindus and Muslims together in a state that recently saw a spate of church burnings.
Sigh, this is backwards on so many levels that it actually makes me a tad angry (not at the article, but the fundies) Thing is, the Malabar / Konkan coast is one of the most ethnically diverse regions in the country; spent a part of my childhood in Mangalore, and I remember being spoken to in Tulu, Konkani, Kannada, Malayalam, Hindi and English. The Konkan coast was how India traded with the world, an unbroken legacy stretching five thousand years.
The fundies are very very recent; the tradition there was inter-mingling, not isolated silos like it is in other parts of the nation.
Dear AskMe, I got engaged to a girl who I met at work, only now my upper-caste parents are refusing to allow me to marry, because of her lower caste.
So I like explaining caste through this construct: Jatis may be grouped on whether they can share roti (food), or marry their beti (daughter) or neither.
posted by the cydonian at 3:58 AM on June 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
the impact of outsourcing on Indian society has also long been debated
Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention. Happened to meet someone who started up back in India; his firm takes transcription jobs from the Arabian peninsula [1] online, transcribes it as calligraphy, prints it and sends them back. Told me that his family had been doing it for generations; if you were from Arabia and wanted something written in that elaborate, baroque Naastaliq calligraphy, you'd traditionally look towards the Deccan.
Calligraphy in Nastaliq in for the last four hundred years, call-centers, medical transcriptions, dev/support in the last eight years. Easy to argue that not much has changed. :)
posted by the cydonian at 4:15 AM on June 23, 2010
Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention. Happened to meet someone who started up back in India; his firm takes transcription jobs from the Arabian peninsula [1] online, transcribes it as calligraphy, prints it and sends them back. Told me that his family had been doing it for generations; if you were from Arabia and wanted something written in that elaborate, baroque Naastaliq calligraphy, you'd traditionally look towards the Deccan.
Calligraphy in Nastaliq in for the last four hundred years, call-centers, medical transcriptions, dev/support in the last eight years. Easy to argue that not much has changed. :)
posted by the cydonian at 4:15 AM on June 23, 2010
Always lovely when cydonianji pops by with his erudition, and with links to Sanskrit Death Metal!
I want to be around when Rudra and their ilk stage a music festival, wherein over ten days and nights, the entirety of the Ramayana is played beginning to end in death metal style.
The highlight would be the pyrotechnics at the finish. And everybody would hold aloft a cigarette lighter, fuelled with ghee.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:42 AM on June 23, 2010
I want to be around when Rudra and their ilk stage a music festival, wherein over ten days and nights, the entirety of the Ramayana is played beginning to end in death metal style.
The highlight would be the pyrotechnics at the finish. And everybody would hold aloft a cigarette lighter, fuelled with ghee.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:42 AM on June 23, 2010
and exchange sweets, because they've got the munchies real bad
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:44 AM on June 23, 2010
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:44 AM on June 23, 2010
As far as I can tell Indian offices are quite social places regardless of the nature of the work. Chatting, chai drinking, and group lunches are pretty much the norm and maybe that's a new experience for young people from the countryside, socializing with so many unrelated people in a similar age cohort.
It's a sitcom, so take it all with a grain of salt, but if you can somehow find Mumbai Calling, a rather quirky short-run British/Indian (filmed in India) series about a British Indian transplanted out of country to run a call center... It's worth watching. The culture clash stuff was amusing, but I found myself wondering how much of the socializing and other stuff depicting an Indian call center was actually based on reality.
posted by hippybear at 9:40 AM on June 23, 2010
It's a sitcom, so take it all with a grain of salt, but if you can somehow find Mumbai Calling, a rather quirky short-run British/Indian (filmed in India) series about a British Indian transplanted out of country to run a call center... It's worth watching. The culture clash stuff was amusing, but I found myself wondering how much of the socializing and other stuff depicting an Indian call center was actually based on reality.
posted by hippybear at 9:40 AM on June 23, 2010
I know way too much about Indian call centers right now, so I thought I'd pop in and address a couple of points...
Make no mistake, the people who work in call centres are all university graduates, and if they don't already have higher degrees, then they're certainly working towards them.
Some call centers in India (like Convergys) require you to be a university graduate, but the majority do not. All you need is your ten plus 2 (i.e., your twelfth-standard pass, which is basically the equivalent of an American high school degree). You get paid a good deal more if you're a graduate, though.
call centers have earned a reputation as racy places where young men and women cavort late into the night.
Is this really the case, or is it only a perception caused by mixing men and women up like that? Because call-center work seems like such a beatdown, generally speaking.
The majority of Indian call center employees I know actually subscribe to this perception (that their coworkers are promiscuous and hard-drinking, and their offices encourage this sort of lifestyle) yet they themselves always claim to be the exception who resists such lures. Make of that what you will!
posted by artemisia at 3:12 PM on June 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
Make no mistake, the people who work in call centres are all university graduates, and if they don't already have higher degrees, then they're certainly working towards them.
Some call centers in India (like Convergys) require you to be a university graduate, but the majority do not. All you need is your ten plus 2 (i.e., your twelfth-standard pass, which is basically the equivalent of an American high school degree). You get paid a good deal more if you're a graduate, though.
call centers have earned a reputation as racy places where young men and women cavort late into the night.
Is this really the case, or is it only a perception caused by mixing men and women up like that? Because call-center work seems like such a beatdown, generally speaking.
The majority of Indian call center employees I know actually subscribe to this perception (that their coworkers are promiscuous and hard-drinking, and their offices encourage this sort of lifestyle) yet they themselves always claim to be the exception who resists such lures. Make of that what you will!
posted by artemisia at 3:12 PM on June 23, 2010 [2 favorites]
artemisia - thanks for the clarification. From your insider's perspective, can you comment on the idea that even if a degree isn't a formal requirement for a job, it becomes a de facto requirement anyway, as competition is so fierce?
From everything I see or read about India these days, it's sounding like you need a PhD just to become a chaiwallah. And then, only if your PhD was from IIT (Indian Instutute of Tea).
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:52 PM on June 23, 2010
From everything I see or read about India these days, it's sounding like you need a PhD just to become a chaiwallah. And then, only if your PhD was from IIT (Indian Instutute of Tea).
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:52 PM on June 23, 2010
I can attest to Indian offices being far more social than any other location I've worked in. There's no "work/life" seperation in that sense and some of your best friends are folks you meet at work, call home, attend weddings of etc etc
Gotta say life was fun
posted by infini at 1:35 AM on June 24, 2010
Gotta say life was fun
posted by infini at 1:35 AM on June 24, 2010
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Is this really the case, or is it only a perception caused by mixing men and women up like that? Because call-center work seems like such a beatdown, generally speaking.
posted by jquinby at 3:04 PM on June 22, 2010 [2 favorites]