could the geopolitical realities outweigh our desire for other people to enjoy the rights that we have?our desire? Is that what's important here?
It absolutely amazes me that it's possible to shut down even wireless networks but I guess they need towers and those can be disabled. Actually amaze is incorrect. Fucking terrifies me is more accurate.Cell towers are just like huge WiFi routers. Just like you still need to plug a WiFi router into a regular Ethernet port/DSL or Cable line, the Cell Towers need their own internet connection (or they might link to a phone companies internal network, which will then take your requests out onto the internet)
I'm mostly computer-illiterate...but...is there anything that people on the rest of the Internet can do to help, at least with regard to the net access?Not really, but how long can they keep this up? Lots of businesses rely on the internet working. I assume that's true in Egypt too.
That's a nice thought, but if the consequences are bad for the values of our societyIn other words, what if they vote for the wrong people?
e.g: what the Suez canal becomes outside of the control of Western influence. Yes, our energy policies have made us dependent on the canal to the extent that we are.Actually, most of the oil we use comes from Canada and Venezuela, as well as local production.
Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They outfit detainees in a diaper and jumpsuit for what can be a day-long trip. Their destinations: either a detention facility operated by cooperative countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, including Afghanistan, or one of the CIA's own covert prisons -- referred to in classified documents as "black sites," which at various times have been operated in eight countries, including several in Eastern Europe.posted by notion at 7:40 PM on January 27, 2011 [27 favorites]
In the months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the CTC was the place to be for CIA officers wanting in on the fight. The staff ballooned from 300 to 1,200 nearly overnight.
"It was the Camelot of counterterrorism," a former counterterrorism official said. "We didn't have to mess with others -- and it was fun." (source)
If most of our oil production was domestic, then it would also be true that most of oil comes from Canada and Venezuela, as well as local production, since the second is a superset of the first.Actually, most of the oil we use comes from Canada and Venezuela, as well as local production.No, most of it, just barely, is domestic.
We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreckposted by orthogonality at 7:54 PM on January 27, 2011 [6 favorites]
And we'll find you a leader that you can elect
Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
And when we['ve] butchered your sons, boys
When we['ve] butchered your sons
Have a stick of our gum, boys
Have a stick of our bubble gum
We own half the world, oh say can you see
And the name for our profits is democracy
So, like it or not, you will have to be free
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World
Jim Lehrer: Has the time come for president Mubarak of Egypt to go... to stand aside?Video and Transcript.
Joe Biden: No. I think the time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction that to be more responsive to some of the needs of people out there.
Peter Bouckaert of Human Rights Watch: We are in East Alexandria. Immediately after prayer, the people came out of mosque with banners and started marching, shouting 'we are peaceful, we are peaceful'. Security arrived and immediately began shooting teargas and rubber bullets at peaceful protesters, about 600. Then one-hour rock throwing clash, but police didn't advance more than one block and kept being pushed back. Then a massive column of protesters came from the other direction and blocked in police, holding up their hands and shouting we are peaceful. Right now police is held up in the yard of mosque and protesters all around, police can't move. They repeatedly ran out of teargas and begged protesters to stop, protesters telling them to join them.
(later) The police have now given up fighting the protesters. The police and protesters are now talking, with protesters bringing water and vinegar (for teargas) to the police. Afternoon prayer has just been called and hundreds are praying in front of the mosque in east Alexandria.posted by memebake at 5:47 AM on January 28, 2011 [14 favorites]
Currently, we're being told that large numbers of plainsclothes police officers and security officers are going through the streets covering parked cars with gasoline. The activists expect that the govt plans to light all the cars on fire, claim that the protesters were burning everything, and use that as a pretext to use severe violence to repress the protests, and eliminating all means for the people to relay the truth out of the country.It worked for the TPS at the G20.
They are being told by sources within the regime that very large groups of govt-organized thugs, calling themselves "ikhwan al-Haq" [a group never heard of, roughly translated as "brotherhood of truth"], are going to be in the streets with knives, swords, etc..., attacking and killing protesters in the streets tomorrow [Friday]; they don't know whether this may be deliberately and falsely leaked to discourage demonstrators; but they do see evidence that these groups are being organized. they may also claim that these violent groups are the demonstrators as a pretext to use violence on the real demonstrators.
Mubarak's regime has been wounded at its core, and even if he survives in the short run the regime will have to make major internal changes to regain any semblance of normality. An Egyptian regime which spends the next years in a state of military lockdown will hardly be a useful ally. ...posted by Joe Beese at 9:28 AM on January 28, 2011 [4 favorites]
Accepting Mubarak's fierce gambit now would put an end to any claim the United States has of promoting democracy and reform for a generation, and alienating the rising youth generation on which the administration has placed so much emphasis. It would also make Cairo the graveyard of Obama's Cairo speech and efforts to rebuild relations with the Muslims of the world. The United States will be better positioned to push such changes in the right direction if it maintains a strong and principled position today -- regardless of whether Mubarak or someone else ends up in control. The cautious strategy right now is the same as the principled one, whether Mubarak falls or if he survives.
In recent days, we expressed our hopes that all parties in Egypt, but especially the Mubarak administration, would act with restraint and show full respect for the peaceful expression of political opinion. We are saddened at the loss of life. We wish to express our solidarity with the Egyptian people and look forward to working with all democratic forces in Egypt to ensure the full exercise of democratic rights. The Egyptian military commendably refused to fire on peaceful demonstrators, and the media valiantly kept the Egyptian public informed."Actually, that was our statement on the failed Venezuelan coup in 2002 (with the Dictator and State switched out). But when you're looking for real statement of support for Egyptian democracy, it should read something like that.
[T]he extraordinary scenes from Egypt [are] filling America's TV screens – even if the early morning bulletins were more interested in Charlie Sheen's hernia.Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
The exception has been Fox News, where coverage has been more muted. "You probably don't give a lot of time thinking about Egypt," a Fox News presenter suggested about an hour ago, before explaining that "groups linked to al-Qaida" were in danger of taking over the government in Cairo.
Guardian Live Blog, 19:04
The main US cable news networks had given Egypt minimal coverage so far this week, partly because of the time difference but also because of the president's state of the union address on Tuesday night absorbing so much energy.So far I haven't had much to say about the protests (beyond "holy shit wow!") but I will say this: Fuck you Fox News, fuck yyyyyyyoooooouuuuuu...
That has all changed today, with the the extraordinary scenes from Egypt filling America's TV screens – even if the early morning bulletins were more interested in Charlie Sheen's hernia.
The exception has been Fox News, where coverage has been more muted. "You probably don't give a lot of time thinking about Egypt," a Fox News presenter suggested about an hour ago, before explaining that "groups linked to al-Qaida" were in danger of taking over the government in Cairo.
7.15pm GMT: The White House has just announced that it is postponing its planned press conference on the situation in Egypt. There's some speculation that may be because Obama himself wants to make a statement personally, but in any case it has been postponed for the time being.Wonder if they're getting new info...
7.35pm GMT: There is a White House briefing on Egypt promised shortly, but the Associated Press has this bombshell – that the Obama administration is using US aid to Egypt as leverage over the Mubarak regime:posted by proj at 11:41 AM on January 28, 2011 [2 favorites]
An Obama administration official says the US will review its $1.5bn in aid to Egypt based on events unfolding in the country, where the authoritarian government is struggling to extinguish huge and growing street protests.
The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the situation. Egypt has been a key US ally in the volatile region. US officials are now increasing calls on President Hosni Mubarak, the target of the protesters, to respond with restraint and reverse steps taken to cut off the protesters' ability to communicate.
The decision to review assistance to Egypt is a significant step as the US seeks to balance the desire to maintain stability in the region with a recognition of the unexpected scope and uncertain outcome of the protests.
8.43pm GMT: While Robert Gibbs is saying as little as possible ("this is a fluid situation") in a baroque manner, al-Jazeera reports that "intense gunfire heard near key govt buildings in the Egyptian capital".posted by proj at 12:48 PM on January 28, 2011
Very unusually, Gibbs is taking questions from foreign journalists. That almost never happens at a White House press briefing.
Some middle-class Egyptians did not report thefts from their apartment blocks because they knew the police would immediately go and torture "all of the doormen", the cable added. It cited one source who said the police would use routinely electric shocks against suspected criminals, and would beat up human rights lawyers who enter police stations to defend their clients. Women detainees allegedly faced sexual abuse. Demoralised officers felt solving crimes justified brutal interrogation methods, with some believing that Islamic law also sanctioned torture, the cable said.One can see why the protestors might call on the army to protect them from the cops, as has been reported.
Why is everyone saying that the revolution will spread to Iran? Iran is MUCH more stable than most all other middle eastern countries, and few people in Iran would want to overthrow the theocracy, because for all of the evils the theocracy commits, it at least makes sure that the US and other foreign powers stay the hell out of Iran. Most people in Iran don't want a revolution. They already had one, and it completed its objectives.Uh, were you paying attention in 2009?
We always knew that, of course, but now the goverment has publicly admitted it by opening fire upon it's own people during their evening prayers. The Egyptian goverment has, esentially, lost. They may win the battle and crush the protestors, but they've still lost. The Egyptian people will never again be under any illusions as to the true nature of their state.I don't think they were under any illusions. But now they'll know the government isn't as powerful as they thought, and that by acting together they can really fuck things up.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, says he's "not sure the time is right for the Arab region to go through the democratic process." Can someone who understands the Middle East better explain this hesitance? I thought Israel would be more enthusiastic about the prospect of a democratic neighbour.Lol. Egypt under Mubarak has been a pretty good ally of Israel, against the will of the people (i.e. assisting the blockade of Gaza), so a democratic Egypt would be less support of Israel then it currently is, probably.
"You probably don't give a lot of time thinking about Egypt," a Fox News presenter suggested about an hour ago, before explaining that "groups linked to al-Qaida" were in danger of taking over the government in Cairo."
Guardian Live Blog, 19:04
No, he's saying he'll replace his cabinet.Er, I was replying to koeselitz
The tools of any revolution, whether they speeches, rocks, bottles or 140 character blurbs, will never be without imperfection.Rocks aren't perfect, but it would still be terrible for a revolution to depend on a supply of them shipped from overseas.
It's fuck all like Iran - where's the charismatic religious leader in exile waiting to return?Yeah, it seems like would be Mohamed Elbaradei, who is a Nobel Laureate. But we don't really know who will end up in control.
The future of the Mubarak family’s grip on Egypt now appears to be a matter for the Egyptian Army to decide. ...posted by Joe Beese at 3:52 PM on January 28, 2011 [1 favorite]
... the generals could decide, as other Arab generals in their position have before, to level their guns in defense of the status quo. The People’s Liberation Army did that at Tiananmen Square, of course. ... The students and the urban workers who had persuaded themselves that they were near victory were also stunned by the Army’s indiscriminate, decisive violence. They seemed to expect until the last hours that the military would stand with them. We can hope, at least, for something better in Egypt during the days ahead. Its Army officers have lived in a much wider world than the P.L.A.’s commanders had known. Many of Egypt’s generals have probably learned by now to think for themselves. They may not be democrats, but they will not likely wish to act merely as bodyguards for a despot.
Torture and police brutality in Egypt are endemic and widespread. The police use brutal methods mostly against common criminals to extract confessions, but also against demonstrators, certain political prisoners and unfortunate bystanders. ...posted by Joe Beese at 5:18 PM on January 28, 2011
Another contact at a human rights NGO told us that her friends do not report thefts from their apartments because they do not want to subject “all the doormen” in the vicinity to police beatings. She told us that the police’s use of force has pervaded Egyptian culture to the extent that one popular television soap opera recently featured a police detective hero who beats up suspects to collect evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: Good evening, everybody. My administration has been closely monitoring the situation in Egypt, and I know that we will be learning more tomorrow when day breaks. As the situation continues to unfold, our first concern is preventing injury or loss of life. So I want to be very clear in calling upon the Egyptian authorities to refrain from any violence against peaceful protestors.posted by empath at 8:58 PM on January 28, 2011 [12 favorites]
The people of Egypt have rights that are universal. That includes the right to peaceful assembly and association, the right to free speech, and the ability to determine their own destiny. These are human rights. And the United States will stand up for them everywhere.
I also call upon the Egyptian government to reverse the actions that they've taken to interfere with access to the Internet, to cell phone service and to social networks that do so much to connect people in the 21st century.
At the same time, those protesting in the streets have a responsibility to express themselves peacefully. Violence and destruction will not lead to the reforms that they seek.
Now, going forward, this moment of volatility has to be turned into a moment of promise. The United States has a close partnership with Egypt and we've cooperated on many issues, including working together to advance a more peaceful region. But we've also been clear that there must be reform -- political, social, and economic reforms that meet the aspirations of the Egyptian people.
In the absence of these reforms, grievances have built up over time. When President Mubarak addressed the Egyptian people tonight, he pledged a better democracy and greater economic opportunity. I just spoke to him after his speech and I told him he has a responsibility to give meaning to those words, to take concrete steps and actions that deliver on that promise.
Violence will not address the grievances of the Egyptian people. And suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. What's needed right now are concrete steps that advance the rights of the Egyptian people: a meaningful dialogue between the government and its citizens, and a path of political change that leads to a future of greater freedom and greater opportunity and justice for the Egyptian people.
Now, ultimately the future of Egypt will be determined by the Egyptian people. And I believe that the Egyptian people want the same things that we all want -- a better life for ourselves and our children, and a government that is fair and just and responsive. Put simply, the Egyptian people want a future that befits the heirs to a great and ancient civilization.
The United States always will be a partner in pursuit of that future. And we are committed to working with the Egyptian government and the Egyptian people -- all quarters -- to achieve it.
Around the world governments have an obligation to respond to their citizens. That's true here in the United States; that's true in Asia; it is true in Europe; it is true in Africa; and it's certainly true in the Arab world, where a new generation of citizens has the right to be heard.
When I was in Cairo, shortly after I was elected President, I said that all governments must maintain power through consent, not coercion. That is the single standard by which the people of Egypt will achieve the future they deserve.
Surely there will be difficult days to come. But the United States will continue to stand up for the rights of the Egyptian people and work with their government in pursuit of a future that is more just, more free, and more hopeful.
Thank you very much.
The source wants to stay anonymous but I cant evaluate the credibility of the source: "A source from within the Presidential Guard has claimed to my friends in Cairo that the army intends to end the protests on Sunday, by any means necessary even if it meant violence and bloodshed. Junta goons are causing chaos in Cairo to claim an unstable situation which will extend until Saturday. Then under the guise of bringing back order, they will "crush them with any amount of force needed!". The sources are unsure of the American role but believe the Americans will go with it."I really hope this is wrong. I hope memebake's friend was right about there being a psychological difference between the police and the military, and that the military will refuse to fire on their own citizens.
No they don't. I know what you mean, but they don't think of it as "bad" in the way you and I do. If they did, they wouldn't be where they are today.languagehat: read some of the wikileaks cables released yesterday. They very clearly lay out the problems, and it turns out that the U.S. was actually secretly working with pro-democracy groups trying to undermine Mubarak. Now, it may well be that the U.S. only wanted Egypt to be "more democratic" only to make it more stable and to prevent an Iran style backlash. But they were definitely aware of the problem and actually working towards solving it.
5:13am The Egyptian army secured Cairo's famed antiquities museum early on Saturday, protecting thousands of priceless artifacts, including the gold mask of King Tutankhamun, from looters.posted by ryanrs at 7:57 AM on January 29, 2011
6:04am Al Jazeera's Jane Dutton, reporting from Cairo, says the National Museum in the capital has not been damaged by the fire that destroyed the neighboring office of the National Democratic Party last night.
[via Al Jazeera live-blog]
The #Egyptian government can't reshuffle the deck and then stand pat. President #Mubarak's words pledging reform must be followed by action.posted by proj at 8:10 AM on January 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
The #Egyptian government can't reshuffle the deck and then stand pat. President #Mubarak's words pledging reform must be followed by action."And your words, too, Mr. State Dept. must be followed by action.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that the visceral disgust you and I and most people here feel when thinking of brutal thugs like Mubarak is not felt by people in power.Well, you're talking about how they feel not what they think, there's quite a difference.
Tourism is absolutely massive in Egypt and if foreigners stop coming to see the country, the present economy will look absolutely rosy.They're not blowing up the pyramids.
Residents reported gangs of youths, some on motorbikes, roaming the streets, looting supermarkets, shopping malls and shopsI'm a layman when it comes to Egyptian affairs, but when I think of young men on motorcycles causing mayhem during a popular uprising I am reminded of the Basij. This is an honest question and I have no idea whether it is warranted, but is there any chance these are just NDP-aligned thugs?
Ayman Nour, opposition leader and head of the Ghad Party, told Al-Masry Al-Youm that his fellow party members have caught several thugs who work for the Interior Ministry. After capturing them in downtown Cairo and Heliopolis, Nour's followers found ministry of interior IDs on them, Nour said.posted by scody at 4:49 PM on January 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
“The regime is trying to project the worst image possible to make it clear to people that they have only one of two alternatives: either the existing order or chaos,” he said.
Zahi Hawass, the Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said the would-be looters only managed to vandalise two mummies, ripping their heads off. They also cleared out the museum gift shop.posted by ZeusHumms at 5:01 PM on January 29, 2011
He said the museum's prized King Tutankhamun exhibit, which includes the boy pharaoh's gold death mask, had not been damaged and was safe.
However, the museum's contents could still be damaged by the potential collapse of a neighbouring building gutted by fire, Hawass said.
Indeed, Obama's own response – about the need for reforms and an end to such violence – was an exact copy of all the lies Mubarak has been using to defend his regime for three decades. It was deeply amusing to Egyptians that Obama – in Cairo itself, after his election – had urged Arabs to grasp freedom and democracy. These aspirations disappeared entirely when he gave his tacit if uncomfortable support to the Egyptian president on Friday. The problem is the usual one: the lines of power and the lines of morality in Washington fail to intersect when US presidents have to deal with the Middle East. Moral leadership in America ceases to exist when the Arab and Israeli worlds have to be confronted.posted by gman at 5:21 PM on January 29, 2011 [9 favorites]
I'm as thrilled as anyone by what I see in the Cairo streets, but when I turn on American television I see only grim faces. Robert Gibbs looked frightened during his delayed press briefing yesterday afternoon; he didn't know what to say. Obama's comments last night were equivocal and opaque: I'm with Mubarak, for now. This is his 9/11 -- the day Arabs blindsided a president.posted by scody at 6:01 PM on January 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
I thought this is what he wanted for the Arab world: democracy! But the market dropped, and the cable shows are filled with mistrust of the Arab street. Our talking heads can't stop talking about the Islamists. [...]We are seeing a dictator dissolve before our eyes. These are the events we cherished in history books; let us embrace the Egyptian movement.
Why is America so afraid?
Because we are seeing a giant leap in Arab power, in which the people of the largest Arab nation demand that they be allowed to fulfill their potential. This change portends a huge shift in the balance of power in the region. For the U.S. has played only a negative role in the Egyptian advance, supplying the teargas, and it seems inevitable that Egypt will cease to be a client state to the U.S. And thereby threaten the order of the last 30 years.
Yes, but the Ottoman Empire was Islamic the way the British Empire was Christian. A new caliphate would be serious about religion.OBVIOUSLY. You just can't trust those muslins.
The Egyptian government can't reshuffle the deck and then stand pat. President Mubarak's words pledging reform must be followed by action.This is not the sort of wholehearted endorsement that Mubarak was probably hoping for.
Alaa Abd El Fattah, a prominent Egyptian blogger who was interviewed on Al Jazeera today, made the interesting observation that the uprising’s most effective organizational strength comes from a quarter that has been ignored by most of the media: soccer fans known as ultras.The beautiful game!
“The ultras — the football fan associations — have played a more significant role than any political group on the ground at this moment,” Alaa said. “Maybe we should get the ultras to rule the country,” he joked.
1.21pm: "At first we trusted the army, but we don't trust them any more," protester Mohamed Ali tells Peter Beaumont as a new tank unit moves into Tahrir Square.posted by proj at 5:26 AM on January 30, 2011
Osama Ghazlai Harb of the National Democrsatic Front told BBC Arabic that this would be a transitional administration that would oversee the cancellation of the emergency laws and the release of all political prisoners.Wonder who the other three groups are - I hope this serves as a strong countermove to support what is happening in Tahrir Square.
The powerful Muslim Brotherhood, which has kept a low profile so far, said it was backing the demand along with other four groups.
Q: [People] often attack you as a political commentator for focusing your criticism against the activities of the United States, and not so much against the old Soviet Union, or Vietnam, or Cuba. . . I'd like to know what you think about that kind of criticism?I'll leave out who said that, because the idea is far more important than the messenger.
A: . . . I focus my efforts against the terror and violence of my own state for really two main reasons. First of all, in my case the actions of my state happen to make up the main component of international violence in the world. But much more importantly than that, it's because American actions are the things that I can do something about. So even if the United States were causing only a tiny fraction of the repression and violence in the world. . . that tiny fraction would still be what I'm responsible for, and what I should focus my efforts against.
. . . Again, it's a very simple ethical point: you are responsible for the predictable consequences of your actions; you're not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions.
At one point, a rumor spread through Tahrir Square that Mubarak had fled the country. A massive cheer rippled through the crowd. People began jumping up and down in joy. One man wept uncontrollably. When it turned out not to be true, the cheers quickly ended but it provided a brief glimpse of the sheer raw desire for Mubarak’s ouster. Reports now indicate that Mubarak’s two sons and his wife, Suzanne, have fled Egypt, as have some of his closest business cronies. Many people believe that is a sign that Hosni will not be far behind.posted by notion at 9:13 AM on January 30, 2011
... since 1993 Suleiman has headed the feared Egyptian general intelligence service. In that capacity, he was the C.I.A.’s point man in Egypt for renditions—the covert program in which the C.I.A. snatched terror suspects from around the world and returned them to Egypt and elsewhere for interrogation, often under brutal circumstances.posted by Joe Beese at 10:43 AM on January 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
... Edward S. Walker, Jr., a former U.S. Ambassador to Egypt, described Suleiman as “very bright, very realistic,” adding that he was cognizant that there was a downside to “some of the negative things that the Egyptians engaged in, of torture and so on. But he was not squeamish, by the way.”
Widespread politically-motivated unrest, he said, was not likely because it was not part of the "Egyptian mentality." Threats to daily survival, not politics, were the only thing to bring Egyptians to the streets en masse. [NDP insider and former minister Dr. Ali El Deen Hilal] Dessouki said the NDP focus on economic reform would continue up to the elections and after any transition of power. He added that Egypt was moving towards democracy, but that a transition from a "pharoanic" political system would take a long time.That quote just...really gets me going. What a patronising prick.
5. (C) According to XXXXXXXXXXXX, the worst police torture takes place during murder investigations. He said that his brother-in-law who is a police officer in the Delta Governorate of Kafr El-Sheikh described "unrelenting pressure" from superiors to solve murder cases by any means necessary. XXXXXXXXXXX said human rights lawyers and XXXXXXXXXXXX have told him that to conduct murder investigations, police will round up 40 to 50 suspects from a neighborhood and hang them by their arms from the ceiling for weeks until someone confesses.
The Egyptian people are fighting, not only to end the 30-year reign of dictator Mubarak, but for democracy. So far, our government has continued its de facto support for the Mubarak regime by paying lip service to the need for "reform" at the same time that it lauds Mubarak as an ally and source of "stability" in the Middle East. President Obama and his spokespeople have carefully avoided the fundamental issue. The Egyptian people are not asking their government to reform itself. They are demanding an end to the entire autocratic and kleptocratic regime they have endured for even longer than Mubarak’s rule. [emphasis mine] They want democracy.Personally, I don't know if it would actually go far in undoing the damage, but at least it would be one step in the right fucking direction.
...So far, President Obama has spoken out for free expression in Egypt and has called for restraint by both sides – as though an unarmed populace, demanding democracy, were the physical or moral equivalent of a brutal state security apparatus. But our president has remained silent about the demonstrators’ goal: a democratic Egypt. In his June 2009 Cairo speech, when nothing was immediately at stake, President Obama uttered eloquent words of support for democracy. If he spoke out forcefully in support of the Egyptian people, as he did for the Tunisian people in his State of the Union address, he could tip events in a direction that would earn America the gratitude of the Egyptian people.
This would go far to undoing the damage to America’s standing in the Arab and Muslim world created by the catastrophically wrong-headed foreign policies of the George W. Bush era. It would also do more to undermine al-Qaeda’s international campaign of hatred and terrorism than has been achieved by two wars and over a trillion dollars in military spending.
On message boards, social networking sites and the web pages of leftwing groups across the nation, young Americans are voicing interest in similar riots taking place on our very soil. Socialists, liberals and eco-terrorists are fully behind the violence in Egypt. Their talk of a coup d’etat in the U.S. is dangerous, possibly treasonous, and threatens our greatest traditions of moral primacy.Of course, this presumes that Palin and the Tea Party aren't getting geography lessons from Fox.
This dilemma does have a silver lining, however. It offers Sarah Palin an incredible opportunity. Stung after the events in Tucson, where leftwing activists tried to blame her for the acts of a mentally disturbed occultist, she could rise to the occasion and show off her credentials on the international stage. President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have been slow to discuss what is happening in Egypt. In truth, they are playing a sickening balancing act of recalcitrant diplomacy, ultimately toying with the safety and future of the United States in ways they do not seem to appreciate.
Governor Palin needs to speak out publicly and forcibly for an American-led invasion to protect our interests in North Africa. As the largest recipient of foreign aid next to Israel, the United States has a tremendous investment in keeping Egypt stable and relatively terrorist-free.
Today, representatives of the of the Egyptian labor movement, made up of the independent Egyptian trade unions of workers in real estate tax collection, the retirees, the technical health professionals and representatives of the important industrial areas in Egypt: Helwan, Mahalla al-Kubra, the tenth of Ramadan city, Sadat City and workers from the various industrial and economic sectors such as: garment & textiles, metals industry, pharmaceuticals, chemical industry, government employees, iron and steel, automotive, etc… And they agreed to hold a press conference at 3:30pm this afternoon in Tahrir Square next to Omar Effendi Company store in downtown Cairo to announce the organization of the new Federation of Egyptian Trade Unions and to announce the formation of committees in all factories and enterprises to protect, defend them and to set a date for a general strike...Great news.
Are you guys serious? You're positing that treaties or other agreements are between the current heads of state of the parties involved?What are you talking about? I was just pointing out that the treaties has nothing to do with Mubarak, and do not require that we support him, in particular.
There were some arms control agreements between the United States and the Soviet Union. You're really arguing that those agreements did not outlive the General Secretary of the Communist Part of the USSR who was in office at the time? Would you consider it a violation of some sort of the United States or Russia started building as many damn nukes as they wanted because the leaders in charge have changed?
We urge you to reflect on the fact that the current crisis in Egypt and the rest of the region is in great part the result of years of corrupt and abusive government and unlawful torture and repression by its security forces, against which the people are now in open revolt. The solution to this crisis is not further repression, but a swift and orderly transition to a new democratic order in which the basic rights and freedoms of the people of the region are respected. We urge you to shoulder your historic responsibility and to assist in bringing about this transition.Israel appears to be arguing for the status quo or a Foxian sky is falling position.
Opressive tyrant,Arabic text with French translation here. Via Al Jazeera's live blog.
lover of darkness, enemy of light,
you have ridiculed the size of the weak people;
your palm is soaked with their blood.
You deformed the magic of existence
and planted the seeds of sorrow in the fields.
...
it's a good thing the US gave egypt rubber bullets and tear gas otherwise it would have been live ammo the whole timeWell, that's nonsense of course. The Egyptians could have bought that stuff from anywhere, but they bought it from us because we gave them the money. This military aide is more like store credit, we give it to you and you buy from us. And that way it ends up back in the pockets of military contractors.
10:13pm Twitter reports from this evening say that four large screens have been installed by protesters in central Cairo to show Al Jazeera Arabic and Al Jazeera Mubasher (Live) to the crowds gathering around.posted by ZeusHumms at 12:45 PM on January 31, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sue Phillips, its London bureau chief, says the new channel will build on the independent traditions of the Arabic al-Jazeera, but it will have a different culture.The difference party explains that New York Times article about Al-Jazeera that we discussed earlier. While I don't necessarily trust the NYT to be unbiased, their report is about Al-Jazeera Arabic, most of the people defending Al-Jazeera in the comments are talking about Al-Jazeera English.
"We have very strict journalism guidelines," she says.
"We come under the UK media regulator Ofcom, we will adhere to Western broadcasting standards, we will report accurately, impartially and objectively - and we will be controversial where necessary."
She says al-Jazeera Arabic is culturally different, which helps explain its use of footage that was condemned in the West.
My theory: He's looking for a pilot ballsy enough to fly out a load of gold bullion.My theory is that he's already out of the country, and so is his gold.
Pro-Israeli groups and individuals in Congress and the rest of the American political elite have worked hard, for decades now, to demean and marginalize the work of anyone who seeks to understand trends in the Arab world on their own terms. They sowed the wind of our government’s current, stunningly evident impotence regarding events in Egypt. Now we are reaping the whirlwind. ...posted by Joe Beese at 2:37 PM on January 31, 2011 [4 favorites]
Israel, in short, has been of no use whatsoever to President Obama as he has tried to figure out how to respond to this fast-moving uprising that is far and away the most significant development in the geopolitics of the Middle East since Bush’s invasion of Iraq. But Israel’s situation is now revealed as worse than that. It is not just that it is of no use to Washington. Its actions over the past 40 years, and those of its many cheerleaders inside the U.S. body politic, are now clearly revealed as having undercut our country’s ability to pursue a reasonable, peaceable and rights-based policy throughout the region.
And without having an Egyptian president who is ready and able to act as Israel's shield and spear, both Israel and the United States are now going to have to look at the whole of the remaining "Arab-Israeli question" in a completely new way.
What about relations with Israel? What would the Brotherhood do regarding the situation between Israel and Palestine?If I was Israel I'd pick Mubarak over that any day of the week.
We think Israel is an occupation force and is not fair to the Palestinians. We do not believe in negotiation with Israel. As the Muslim Brotherhood, we must resist all this. They are an occupation force and we must resist this. Did you see what they do in Gaza, on the flotilla? Israel is a very dangerous force and we must resist. Resistance is the only way, negotiation is not useful at all.
So would the Muslim Brotherhood, if in a position of government, help groups like Hamas?
Yes, sure.
Do you recognize Israel as a state?
No.
Let's say at some point there's a new government in Egypt in which the Brotherhood has a voice. How would they change the foreign policy of Egypt on Israel or relations with the U.S.?posted by scody at 4:23 PM on January 31, 2011 [6 favorites]
They're clearly suspicious of the United States, and you'll hear some anti-American slogans from them -- but no more so than from any other place in the Egyptian political spectrum. They don't stand out there, and there are probably more anti-American people in the committee of opposition leaders.
With regard to Israel it's a little bit different. Israel is unpopular in Egypt. And the Brotherhood since the 1930s has a very strong history of backing the Palestinian cause. They are critics of the Camp David accords and the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty. Those are all popular stands. That said, no one in Egypt wants a war with Israel right now. So the Brotherhood tries to finesse this by saying, 'This treaty really needs to be put up for a referendum." If they were in the government, I think they would be in an embarrassing position. This is an international treaty that was ratified -- are you willing to abide by the state of Egypt's international treaty obligations or not?
If it was a broad-based coalition government in which the majority clearly favored maintaining the current peace treaty, I think the Brotherhood would say: "We don't like this, we're not in favor it. But we're willing to accept the results of a legitimate political process." That's my guess.
Is the Brotherhood something that should be a source of fear in the way it's being talked about by many people?
We've got a big headache in Egypt. The regime in its current form is toast. Our regional policy has been based on a very close working relationship with the Egyptian government since 1974, so we've got fundamental rethinking to do. The Brotherhood is part of that headache. It's not the biggest part. Is there cause for concern? Yes. Is there cause for fearful reaction? Absolutely not.
Third, technology is a catalyst for change. If the events have showed the tech community anything, it's that facebook and twitter, and the internet proper, aren't decentralized enough. If your service requires some logically centralized system to negotiate communication among users, it can be interrupted. We need some ultra-decentralized version of these networking tools. Like what gnutella and bittorrent did to Napster, we need to do with Twitter and facebook. Fully Peer-to-peer, with the servers distributed among the users.
The young people organized themselves into groups that directed traffic, protected neighborhoods and guarded public buildings of value such as the Egyptian Museum and the Library of Alexandria. They are collaborating with the army. This makeshift arrangement is in place until full public order returns.posted by lalex at 7:57 PM on January 31, 2011 [14 favorites]
The library is safe thanks to Egypt’s youth, whether they be the staff of the Library or the representatives of the demonstrators, who are joining us in guarding the building from potential vandals and looters.
For Huckabee and Santorum, as well as for a large segment of the American public, these two polls present a contradiction. How could Egyptians want both a democracy and a role for religion in their government? After all, in the United States it is axiomatic that Islam is inherently opposed to democracy and that Muslims are incapable of reconciling democratic and Islamic values. Never mind that the same people who scoff at the notion that religion could play no role in the emerging democracies in the Middle East are the same people who demand that religion must play a role in America's democracy. Ironically, one of the most vocal proponent of religious activism in politics is Mike Huckabee himself, who has repeatedly called Americans to "take this nation back for Christ" and who, while running for president, proudly declared that "what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards."This is illustrates biggest issue I have with anyone trying to deny Egyptians of their basic human rights. Who are we to say that the only people with the right to have crazy religious fundamentalists in their democracy are nations with Christians and Jews? Israel has it's fair share of ultra hawks demanding that Israel destroy Palestine, and it wasn't a Muslim that said "Blow them away in the name of the Lord." And though we weren't motivated by religion, the bombs started falling anyway.
In fact, when it comes to the role of religion in society, Americans and Egyptians are pretty well in agreement. An August 2010 Pew poll found that 43 percent of Americans believe that churches should express political views and play an active role in politics, while 61 percent agreed that "it is important that members of Congress have strong religious beliefs."
"It's not so much about sending a message to Mubarak - they don't think he will listen, anyway," [one of nearly two dozen outside experts invited to an off-the-record meeting with White House officials Monday] said. "The message," he said, is one of urgency to "those who would push [Mubarak] out. If you want to see a new Egypt, and want your place in it, here's your chance." [...]posted by LobsterMitten at 9:24 PM on January 31, 2011 [1 favorite]
So far, the administration acknowledged, no senior U.S. official has made contact with Mohamed El Baradei, the former Egyptian diplomat who now heads a loose opposition coalition. The administration official cited the difficulty of phone connections with and in Egypt, and said that U.S. Ambassador Margaret Scobey was "working overtime to meet with as many people as she possibly can."
The official said that while the administration was concerned about "some elements" of the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood and other non-secular groups participating in the demonstrations, it was "not ruling out their legitimacy" and place in a future government.
No. Defense Secretary Gates stated in 2009 that foreign military financing “should be without conditions.”posted by rodgerd at 9:57 PM on January 31, 2011
Gates prefaced that comment by saying that the Obama administration, like other U.S. administrations, is “always supportive of human rights.”
The administration of former president George W. Bush had threatened to link military assistance to Egypt’s human rights progress, but it didn’t follow through. When exiled Egyptian dissident, Saad Eddin Ibrahim, called on the U.S. government to attach conditions to aid to Egypt, U.S. officials dismissed the idea as unrealistic.
Administration officials were palpably relieved when the Egyptian army announced that it would respect demonstrators' rights and would not interfere - provided they remained peaceful - but denied reports that they had requested that the military issue the statement.posted by LobsterMitten at 10:15 PM on January 31, 2011
The message delivered by Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in a conversation Sunday with his Egyptian counterpart, Lt. Gen. Sami Enan, was more subtle, a military official said. Mullen "thanked them for their professionalism" up to now, and emphasized "that's the kind of behavior we'd like to see."
"There was no finger-wagging, no asking them to put out a statement," the official said. "It wasn't necessary to do so. The general understands."
“[Europeans] face an aggressive secular attack from without. We face the threat of extremism from within.” Arguing that there was “no hope” from atheists who scorn God, he said the best way to confront the secularist agenda was for all faiths to unite against it.Tony Blair on religion in Egypt, today:
Tony Blair, the Middle East peace envoy, warned that Egypt might take a backward step "into a very reactionary form of religious autocracy"I guess religion should be mandatory for white people, but not OK for brown people.
Jordan's King Abdullah has responded to the gathering pace of pro-democracy protests in the Middle East by dismissing his government and appointing a new prime minister. (12.45pm)Breathtaking, epic point-missing.
Meanwhile, Channel 4's Jonathan Rugman, who earlier suggested Mubarak might already have gone, has just tweeted:posted by proj at 8:45 AM on February 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
V reliable source tells me US Ambassador spoke to Mubarak today - and that he said he wasn't leaving. #jan25 #feb01 #egypt #c4news
In the best secular democratic tradition, people simply revolted against an oppressive regime, its corruption and poverty, and demanded freedom and economic hope. The cynical wisdom of western liberals, according to which, in Arab countries, genuine democratic sense is limited to narrow liberal elites while the vast majority can only be mobilised through religious fundamentalism or nationalism, has been proven wrong.posted by scody at 12:12 PM on February 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
[...] Stable change in Egypt today can mean only a compromise with the Mubarak forces by way of slightly enlarging the ruling circle. This is why to talk about peaceful transition now is an obscenity: by squashing the opposition, Mubarak himself made this impossible. After Mubarak sent the army against the protesters, the choice became clear: either a cosmetic change in which something changes so that everything stays the same, or a true break.
Here, then, is the moment of truth: one cannot claim, as in the case of Algeria a decade ago, that allowing truly free elections equals delivering power to Muslim fundamentalists. Another liberal worry is that there is no organised political power to take over if Mubarak goes. Of course there is not; Mubarak took care of that by reducing all opposition to marginal ornaments, so that the result is like the title of the famous Agatha Christie novel, And Then There Were None. The argument for Mubarak – it's either him or chaos – is an argument against him.
The hypocrisy of western liberals is breathtaking: they publicly supported democracy, and now, when the people revolt against the tyrants on behalf of secular freedom and justice, not on behalf of religion, they are all deeply concerned. Why concern, why not joy that freedom is given a chance?
I would like to send a message to all the [newscasters] out thereposted by symbioid at 12:46 PM on February 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
The time has come to realize your net worth in a market
and stop being a fucking commodity
And if you didn't understand what I've just said then you already waiting to get fucked
...
And to all these bitchass [marketing departments] who are too lazy to come up with a way to [report news]
That they keep recycling marketing schemes and imagery
C'mon..
There is a market for everything man
There is a market for pet psychologists.. There is a market for twisted
shitfetish video's. For nipplerings, for riverdancing, for chocolate covered roaches..
But you can't find one for [honest, unbiased reporting]?
How long can these people hold out in the square? They've got to need food, if nothing else.The protester they just interviewed said people are bringing food, and water, and even cleaning the streets.
mplayer $(wget -q -O - "http://europarse.real.com/hurl/gratishurl.ram?pid=eu_aljazeera&file=al_jazeera_en_lo.rm" | sed -e 's#lo.rm#hi.rm#')Obama's message to Mubarak had been conveyed earlier in the day by special envoy Frank G. Wisner during a meeting in Cairo. While Wisner said it would be useful if Mubarak made clear that he had no plans to run in the scheduled September election, officials said, the bulk of the meeting was spent urging Mubarak to turn over control far sooner.posted by LobsterMitten at 7:09 PM on February 1, 2011
While Mubarak appeared to understand the first part of the message, it was not clear to the White House until his speech was broadcast that he had dismissed the second part. In Cairo, protesters greeted the speech with continued demands that Mubarak leave office immediately.
Karim Medhat Ennarah, a 27-year-old worker, said: "I watched this speech in a coffee house downtown where everybody was winding down after a long day's protest but when the speech ended the whole coffee house rose as one and began marching back to Tahrir Square. He's a man trying to bargain without realising that he has nothing left to bargain with."posted by ZeusHumms at 7:56 PM on February 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
1656: The BBC's Magdi Abdelhadi in Cairo says: "It is virtually impossible to know the extent of support for Mr Mubarak in Egyptian society. Throughout his long time in office there have never been free and fair elections by international standards and opinion polls designed to measure the president's popularity are banned. This leaves most people with guesstimates. There is no doubt, however, that there is a genuine Mubarak constituency - those who stand to lose influence or money. What complicates the picture further is that there is a tradition of paying the poor and the not so politically aware to come out and demonstrate or vote. There is also what you may call the emotional constituency - equally difficult to quantify. In a conservative patriarchal culture like Egypt, there will be those who see Mr Mubarak as a father figure and will mourn his demise. One young man told me it was unacceptable to humiliate a man of his age, let alone the father of a nation."posted by ZeusHumms at 9:00 AM on February 2, 2011
Josh Leffler, a 25-year-old student attending the American University in Cairo, who has participated in the protests for the past three days, said he believes the restoration of internet access just as the protests turned violent for the first time was not a coincidence. “This is obviously an extremely clever way of trying to manipulate the flow of information to reflect poorly on the protesters,” he wrote in an e-mail to Wired, in which he also confirmed internet access has been restored in Cairo.posted by saulgoodman at 12:50 PM on February 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
State Department spokesman PJ Crowley said that Clinton condemned the violence. But, incredibly, Crowley also said: "We don't know who's responsible for the violence,"If the US State Department really can't work that one out, they should probably be replaced with people capable of doing thei jobs.
At 4 p.m. [Fri], the battles appeared to tip decisively in the protesters' favor. An order came down from Mr. Mubarak to the Minister of Interior, Habib al-Adly to use live ammunition to put down the protests, according to a person familiar with the situation.Though the article doesn't go into it, this scenario supports the notion of the police being involved in the looting and violence that began after they were pulled from the streets.
Mr. al-Adly passed on the order to his top lieutenant, Gen. Ahmed Ramzy—but Mr. Ramzy refused, according to this person.
"It was a poor assessment of what [orders] his generals would take from him," this person said.
When Mr. Mubarak saw that Mr. Adly wouldn't get the job done, he gave the order for the army to deploy, this person said. Mr. Adly was furious, according to the person. Mr. Adly then gave a sweeping order to pull all police from the streets, from lowly traffic monitors, to prison guards, to the vast armies of truncheon-wielding riot police that had been a ubiquitous presence around Egypt for decades.
"That withdrawal was a disastrous mistake," said Fuad Allam, a former commander of the country's internal security forces. "You just can't do that."
The deployment orders caught the military by surprise, according to soldiers.
"No one expected it," a junior officer said on Monday. "The order came and four hours later we were on the streets."
Malcolm Gladwell's NYer blog entry "Does Egypt Need Twitter? It's evident he hasn't been reading Tweets from Egypt.Well, it would be kind of hard to do that given the internet was down for most of the critical period.
Tony Blair: Mubarak a courageous and a force for good.Christ. Can there be any doubt about that guy's mendacity at this point?
Malcolm Gladwell is an absolute moron. Even if Twitter/Facebook didn't contribute directly to the planning of the Egyptian protests (which seems absolutely ridiculous), the technology has affected and is affecting millions of people. Jesus Christ, I'm reading madamjujujive's Egypt twitter list and it is freaking me the fuck out. Half a world away, people are preparing to get slaughtered. When in the course of history have such monumental events been delivered so immediately, so clearly, and so personally? Obviously never.I think the people in Egypt felt it pretty personally even when the Internet was down. What I've heard from actual Egyptians they seem kind of annoyed by the idea that their revolution is based on tweets.
The Egyptian economy under the Nazif government showed unprecedented growth. The currency was devalued, investment was pouring in, and exports were growing. Even the economic crisis did not dramatically effect Egypt. The real disaster in all of this however is that no one actually rationalized or defended those policies to the Egyptian public. The country was moving towards a full capitalist system but no explained why that was needed or why it was ultimately beneficial. While such restructuring is naturally painful for a population that was dependent on the government for all its needs, the people were fed the same socialist rhetoric nonetheless. It mattered very little that the country was improving economically, people did not see that. ...posted by languagehat at 4:59 PM on February 2, 2011
Businessmen greatly benefited from the economic improvement. Business was good and political aspirations started to emerge for them. First it was a Parliament seat that they desired. It offered immunity from prosecution after all. With Gamal however, they suddenly had a higher opportunity. Gamal wanted to recreate the ruling NDP party. The NDP, never actually a real party and more of a mass valueless organization of state operation was suddenly turning into a real party. Businessmen like Ahmed Ezz, the steel tycoon saw a golden opportunity. They took full control with Gamal of the party and with it power.
The army never liked Gamal or his friends. Gamal had never served in the military. To add insult to injury his friends were threatening the dominance of the army. The technocrat's neo-liberal policies were threatening the army's dominance of the closed economy and the party was becoming step by step an actual organization that competes with the army officers in filling administrative positions. Suddenly the doors to power in Egypt were not a military career but a party ID card.
O: F--k the Internet! I have not seen it since Thursday, and I am not missing it. I don’t need it. No one in Tahrir Square needs it. No one in Suez needs it…Go tell Mubarak that the people’s revolution does not need his damn Internet!posted by delmoi at 5:00 PM on February 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Me: Ha-ha! You just gave me a possible title for the piece, my friend…
---
O: Before he shut us out on Thursday…there was vibrant communication between a certain and very small class of society in terms of relative numbers…. This is the class of people who have always been absent and apathetic toward the suffering of the Egyptian majority…the poor people…. You know, that was good…, so maybe a little bit through Twitter and all the apathetic students and professional class started communicating for the first time…
Me: True. I have been saying that---someone in Zamalek is not tweeting at a Zabaleen you know. They tweet to each other in their nice apartments with AC and stuff.
O: Yes, true…, but I know it played a good role for maybe the first day-and-a-half…. But if you are saying that it is pivotal to the revolution or the lifeline of the revolution, then you are not doing justice to Egyptian people, man, or even to the functionality of this specific tool. This is a huge danger for the future…because in other Arab countries for example…you will misinform people about this Twitter/Facebook tool—you will overstate its importance…, and misguide people, who want change in other places. Its biggest weakness is that it can be cut off.
the Westwas meaningfully
urging change in Egyptwhile
working with Mubarak over the peace process.
[The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt] are extremely well-organised and well-funded whereas those people who are out on the street at the moment, many of them will be extremely well-intentioned people but they're not organised in political parties yet. So one of the issues in the transition is to give time for those political parties to get themselves properly organised ....I don't want Egypt to be run by a clericist paramilitary group descended from fascist sympathisers, so where are the alternative parties? How can they be persuaded to come forward? I suspect that "free and fair" election can't be held under the old laws, so who will be responsible for writing the new election laws? That is, will it be the existing Egyptian legislature or some external authority? I don't suggest that an Egyptian revolution be put on hold while all those things are sorted out, but my point is that it will take some time after the revolution to do all this, and the day-to-day business of government has to keep working in the mean time.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand what some of us are saying.Isn't what you said "Malcolm Gladwell is an absolute moron"? The answer is yes.
...he rips off his suit to reveal Superman's outfit, then flies off to Egypt, and takes Mubarak into custody.He sent Frank.
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak heard the U.S. message that it was time to go from a retired American diplomat, Frank Wisner, who has deep ties to Egypt’s political, military and economic sectors. . . Wisner met with Mubarak on Jan. 31, carrying Obama’s message that the Egyptian leader’s time in office was nearing an end, an administration official familiar with Wisner’s visit said yesterday.It's a small, fucked up world.
. . .
Wisner also has ties to some of the largest U.S. corporations, including a previous stint on the board of American International Group Inc. of New York. He served as a director from 1997 to 2003 and later held the position of vice chairman of external affairs until February 2009.
He continues to serve on the boards of Houston, Texas-based EOG Resources Inc., formerly Enron Oil & Gas Co., as well as Ethan Allen Interiors Inc., the Danbury, Connecticut-based furniture maker.
One big question now is about the army. It's clear that the army was introduced last week because the police force could no longer maintain order, and throughout the last week, there were some examples of fraternization between demonstrators and the soldiers.posted by scody at 1:08 AM on February 3, 2011
But now, the police have reappeared. Officially, they've returned not in Tahrir Square, but mainly in middle-class neighborhoods like Mohandiseen, where they joined the community cordons that patrol the areas. And there's no doubt whatsoever from any media source that many of the people who were assaulting demonstrators were agents of the state--police in plain clothes.
And in this context, the army determined that it would stay "above the fray." At one stage today, I saw soldiers shoot in the air to push back some of the pro-Mubarak supporters from the square, because there was an outcry beginning to build against the attack on what was such a united and peaceful demonstration. But there's also no doubt that the army allowed the violence to take place against the demonstrators.
Spokespeople for the army have been saying for several days now that the time for demonstrating is over, and that message was accentuated on Wednesday. The same phrase gets repeated over and over--that the army is "above the fray" and "above politics." But that's obviously not the case. In the history of Egypt, the army plays a very important role.
People are in shock at the degree of violence that's been unleashed, and so there's a kind of context where the army can be brought in to save the day. But it will be a complicated question, because everyone knows that the call for demonstrations on Friday will probably produce a bigger turnout than ever.
11:35am Egyptian soldiers separated pro-democracy supporters and Mubarak loyalists in central Cairo, deploying infantry to create a buffer zone in an attempt to halt violence between them.Guardian liveblog:
A Reuters journalist at the scene says the opposing camps are separated by a distance of some 80 metres. It is the first time the army acts decisively to halt the violence.
9.34am [i.e., 11:34 am local time in Egypt]: Rapid political manoeuvring: Egypt's Vice President Omar Suleiman has held a dialogue with the country's political parties and national forces in a bid to end the protests, according to Reuters.posted by scody at 1:45 AM on February 3, 2011
Oppostion leader Mohamed ElBaradei is refusing to take part until Mubarak resigns.
11:39 am Egypt's cabinet denies that it had a role in mobilising Mubarak loyalists against pro-democracy protesters in Cairo's Tahrir Square and said it would investigate those behind violence. Cabinet spokesman Magdy Rady said: "To accuse the government of mobilising this is a real fiction. That would defeat our object of restoring the calm. We were surprised with all these actions.""We're shocked, shocked, to find that there's brutality going on here!"
11.10am: The British telecommunications company Vodafone is being accused of sending out text messages urging pro-Mubarak supporters to "confront" protesters.Unless I'm missing something, those are all ambiguous enough that they could be referring to the pro- or anti- government sides, right?
According to this Flickr gallery, put together by Riham Nabil, this is what some of them said.
The Armed Forces asks Egypt's honest and loyal men to confront the traitors and criminals and protect our people and honor and our precious Egypt.
Youth of Egypt, beware rumors and listen to the sound of reason - Egypt is above all so preserve it.
To every mother-father-sister-brother, to every honest citizen preserve this country as the nation is forever.
The Armed Forces cares for your safety and well being and will not resort to using force against this great nation.
12.05pm: More on those Vodafone texts. In a statement the company said they were powerless to prevent these "unacceptable" texts being sent out.posted by xqwzts at 5:24 AM on February 3, 2011
Under the emergency powers provisions of the Telecoms Act, the Egyptian authorities can instruct the mobile networks of Mobinil, Etisalat and Vodafone to send messages to the people of Egypt. They have used this since the start of the protests. These messages are not scripted by any of the mobile network operators and we do not have the ability to respond to the authorities on their content.
Vodafone Group has protested to the authorities that the current situation regarding these messages is unacceptable. We have made clear that all messages should be transparent and clearly attributable to the originator.
That's what made me so hopeful about this revolution from the beginning. Everything was relatively peaceful after the riot cops were called off. Now that the thug-squad has been called in...They're the same people, just with different outfits.
Ahmad Shafiq, the Egyptian prime minister, has apologised for the violence in the capital's Tahrir Square, and vowed that it will not be allowed to recur.posted by catlet at 6:55 AM on February 3, 2011
He made the comments on Thursday, after violent clashes in central Cairo between pro-democracy protesters and loyalists of Hosni Mubarak, the president, claimed at least seven lives and injured more than 800.
He added that an investigation will be launched into the violence.
ET: Mubarak has said he will remain in power until after an election in September. Is the Obama administration, which says the time for a transition is "now," satisfied with that?Then, as clavdius pointed out upthread, yesterday, a former US diplomat visited Mubarak to deliver the message that Mubarak must step down immediately to make way for a transitional government.
September is not now, Gibbs says.
A veiled girl with a blurred face went on Mehwer TV claiming to have received funding by Americans to go to the US and took courses on how to bring down the Egyptian government through protests which were taught by Jews. She claimed that AlJazeera is lying, and that the only people in Tahrir square now were Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. State TV started issuing statements on how the people arrested Israelis all over Cairo engaged in creating mayhem and causing chaos.posted by Joe in Australia at 9:06 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
... courses on how to bring down the Egyptian government through protests which were taught by Jews.
our government is morally bankruptThis phrasing is exceedingly common, and belies a fundamental ignorance about governance.
our government is morally bankruptThis phrasing is exceedingly common, and belies a fundamental ignorance about governance.
You're a capitalist, aren't you?I'm interested in how things are. I don't choose to cloud my vision with a particular philosophy of how they ought to be.
Mubaruk who, no doubt when he looks himself in the mirror in the morning, imagines himself an honorable man, likely decided long ago that Egyptian culture is essentially brutal and venal. And as such, he's built his career (and fortune) on guiding this culture the only way it can be guided (via a higher, more committed and organized brutality and venality).Maybe. Or maybe he recognized long ago that regardless of other cultural strains, brutal and venal culture is determinative in this era of realpolitik. As the leader of a nation, to adhere to a moral or ideological code that disregards that is to make oneself and one's nation vulnerable to those who are not so starry-eyed. Maybe he had grand visions of an equitable society when he began, and lost them over time as he compromised repeatedly with power brokers who had, shall we say, less universal interests. I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm saying the result would likely be much the same either way.
In an Exclusive Interview, Egypt's President Says He's Fed Up and Wants to Resign, "But Cannot for Fear of the Country Falling into Chaos."I guess the interview or excerpts will be broadcast tonight on Nightline. Neatly packaged for American consumption. Not sure anyone here would buy it. Incidentally his son Gamal is there.
...
He told me that he is troubled by the violence we have seen in Tahrir Square over the last few days but that his government is not responsible for it. Instead, he blamed the Muslim Brotherhood, a banned political party here in Egypt.
As a crackdown on journalists intensifies -- including reports that police and others have raided journalists' hotel rooms around Tahrir Square -- The Ramses Hilton has asked journalists not to film from hotel balconies.posted by ZeusHumms at 2:02 PM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
From the Hilton Twitter feed:Due to the gravity, immediacy and dynamic nature of the situation in Cairo, our hotel is implementing measures to ensure the safetySecurity forces were reportedly watching the hotel through binoculars for camera equipment on hotel balconies, then radioing their location to raiding parties in the hotel.
and security of our guests and employees, as this remains our highest priority. These measures include a request not to film
from the property due to the threat this poses to the reporters themselves as well as others on property.
We appreciate your understanding and support during these challenging circumstances.
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is discussing with Egyptian officials a proposal for President Hosni Mubarak to resign immediately, turning over power to a transitional government headed by Vice President Omar Suleiman with the support of the Egyptian military, administration officials and Arab diplomats said Thursday.So nothing changes except he leaves. I suppose the fine details include how much of his money he gets to keep, what country he goes to exile in, and what happens to his kids.
Even though Mr. Mubarak has balked, so far, at leaving now, officials from both governments are continuing talks about a plan in which, Mr. Suleiman, backed by Sami Enan, chief of the Egyptian armed forces, and Field Marshal Mohamed Tantawi, the Defense Minister, would immediately begin a process of constitutional reform.
The proposal also calls for the transitional government to invite members from a broad range of opposition groups, including the banned Muslim Brotherhood, to begin work to open up the country’s electoral system in an effort to bring about free and fair elections in September, the officials said.
Senior administration officials said that the proposal is one of several options under discussion with high-level Egyptian officials around Mr. Mubarak, though not him directly, in an effort to convince him to step down now.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:57 PM on February 3, 2011And on Thursday, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton called King Abdullah of Jordan to say the United States looked forward to working with his new Cabinet—recently announced--and to underline the importance of the relationship between Jordan and the United States.
Philip J. Crowley, the State Department spokesman, declined to say whether Mrs. Clinton had enlisted him in an effort to ease out Mr. Mubarak. But he praised the king for responding to the unrest in Jordan.He’s doing his best to respond to this growing aspiration,Mr. Crowley said.And we appreciate the leadership he’s shown.
Addressing the Void Between Military and Civil AuthorityAuthority is spread around in the military to prevent a group like the Free Officers forming. I think this could inhibit the military from making a coup like the one Field Marsha Amer attempted against Nasser.
The reforms were implemented immediately after the Field Marshal Amer affair. First, a civilian would occupy the post of Defense Minister, he would be responsible for preparing the nation’s war effort, financing and procurement. The Army Chief of Staff would take on the responsibility of organizing, training and preparing the specific armed forces units for war. A Minister for War was created to be the chief military advisor to the president and was given the title General in Chief of all armed forces. His job primarily was to advise the president and commander-in-chief as well as the Majlis (legislature) on military threats and the state of preparedness of the armed forces....
Some of those few passengers arriving in Cairo fell afoul of the law because they came braced for the worst.Why would China send journalists if they're filtering out 'Egypt' from web searches and such?
A group of Chinese journalists was detained after customs officials discovered bulletproof vests and more than 20 satellite phones and walkie-talkies in their baggage, airport officials said. The journalists were released after the items in question — which require government permits or are banned altogether — were confiscated.
I don’t know how to start writing this. I have been battling fatigue for not sleeping properly for the past 10 days, moving from one’s friend house to another friend’s house, almost never spending a night in my home, facing a very well funded and well organized ruthless regime that views me as nothing but an annoying bug that its time to squash will come. The situation here is bleak to say the least.posted by Malor at 1:44 AM on February 4, 2011 [22 favorites]
It didn’t start out that way. On Tuesday Jan 25 it all started peacefully, and against all odds, we succeeded to gather hundreds of thousands and get them into Tahrir Square, despite being attacked by Anti-Riot Police who are using sticks, tear gas and rubber bullets against us. We managed to break all of their barricades and situated ourselves in Tahrir. The government responded by shutting down all cell communication in Tahrir square, a move which purpose was understood later when after midnight they went in with all of their might and attacked the protesters and evacuated the Square. The next day we were back at it again, and the day after. Then came Friday and we braved their communication blackout, their thugs, their tear gas and their bullets and we retook the square. We have been fighting to keep it ever since.
That night the government announced a military curfew, which kept getting shorter by the day, until it became from 8 am to 3 pm. People couldn’t go to work, gas was running out quickly and so were essential goods and money, since the banks were not allowed to operate and people were not able to collect their salary. The internet continued to be blocked, which affected all businesses in Egypt and will cause an economic meltdown the moment they allow the banks to operate again. We were being collectively punished for daring to say that we deserve democracy and rights, and to keep it up, they withdrew the police, and then sent them out dressed as civilians to terrorize our neighborhoods. I was shot at twice that day, one of which with a semi-automatic by a dude in a car that we the people took joy in pummeling. The government announced that all prisons were breached, and that the prisoners somehow managed to get weapons and do nothing but randomly attack people. One day we had organized thugs in uniforms firing at us and the next day they disappeared and were replaced by organized thugs without uniforms firing at us. Somehow the people never made the connection.
Despite it all, we braved it. We believed we are doing what’s right and were encouraged by all those around us who couldn’t believe what was happening to their country. What he did galvanized the people, and on Tuesday, despite shutting down all major roads leading into Cairo, we managed to get over 2 million protesters in Cairo alone and 3 million all over Egypt to come out and demand Mubarak’s departure. Those are people who stood up to the regime’s ruthlessness and anger and declared that they were free, and were refusing to live in the Mubarak dictatorship for one more day. That night, he showed up on TV, and gave a very emotional speech about how he intends to step down at the end of his term and how he wants to die in Egypt, the country he loved and served. To me, and to everyone else at the protests this wasn’t nearly enough, for we wanted him gone now. Others started asking that we give him a chance, and that change takes time and other such poppycock. Hell, some people and family members cried when they saw his speech. People felt sorry for him for failing to be our dictator for the rest of his life and inheriting us to his Son. It was an amalgam of Stockholm syndrome coupled with slave mentality in a malevolent combination that we never saw before. And the Regime capitalized on it today.
Today, they brought back the internet, and started having people calling on TV and writing on facebook on how they support Mubarak and his call for stability and peacefull change in 8 months. They hung on to the words of the newly appointed government would never harm the protesters, whom they believe to be good patriotic youth who have a few bad apples amongst them. We started getting calls asking people to stop protesting because “we got what we wanted” and “we need the country to start working again”. People were complaining that they miss their lives. That they miss going out at night, and ordering Home Delivery. That they need us to stop so they can resume whatever existence they had before all of this. All was forgiven, the past week never happened and it’s time for Unity under Mubarak’s rule right now.
To all of those people I say: NEVER! I am sorry that your lives and businesses are disrupted, but this wasn’t caused by the Protesters. The Protesters aren’t the ones who shut down the internet that has paralyzed your businesses and banks: The government did. The Protesters weren’t the ones who initiated the military curfew that limited your movement and allowed goods to disappear off market shelves and gas to disappear: The government did. The Protesters weren’t the ones who ordered the police to withdraw and claimed the prisons were breached and unleashed thugs that terrorized your neighborhoods: The government did. The same government that you wish to give a second chance to, as if 30 years of dictatorship and utter failure in every sector of government wasn’t enough for you. The Slaves were ready to forgive their master, and blame his cruelty on those who dared to defy him in order to ensure a better Egypt for all of its citizens and their children. After all, he gave us his word, and it’s not like he ever broke his promises for reform before or anything.
Then Mubarak made his move and showed them what useful idiots they all were.
You watched on TV as “Pro-Mubarak Protesters” – thugs who were paid money by NDP members by admission of High NDP officials- started attacking the peaceful unarmed protesters in Tahrir square. They attacked them with sticks, threw stones at them, brought in men riding horses and camels- in what must be the most surreal scene ever shown on TV- and carrying whips to beat up the protesters. And then the Bullets started getting fired and Molotov cocktails started getting thrown at the Anti-Mubarak Protesters as the Army standing idly by, allowing it all to happen and not doing anything about it. Dozens were killed, hundreds injured, and there was no help sent by ambulances. The Police never showed up to stop those attacking because the ones who were captured by the Anti-mubarak people had police ID’s on them. They were the police and they were there to shoot and kill people and even tried to set the Egyptian Museum on Fire. The Aim was clear: Use the clashes as pretext to ban such demonstrations under pretexts of concern for public safety and order, and to prevent disunity amongst the people of Egypt. But their plans ultimately failed, by those resilient brave souls who wouldn’t give up the ground they freed of Egypt, no matter how many live bullets or firebombs were hurled at them. They know, like we all do, that this regime no longer cares to put on a moderate mask. That they have shown their true nature. That Mubarak will never step down, and that he would rather burn Egypt to the ground than even contemplate that possibility.
In the meantime, State-owned and affiliated TV channels were showing coverage of Peaceful Mubarak Protests all over Egypt and showing recorded footage of Tahrir Square protest from the night before and claiming it’s the situation there at the moment. Hundreds of calls by public figures and actors started calling the channels saying that they are with Mubarak, and that he is our Father and we should support him on the road to democracy. A veiled girl with a blurred face went on Mehwer TV claiming to have received funding by Americans to go to the US and took courses on how to bring down the Egyptian government through protests which were taught by Jews. She claimed that AlJazeera is lying, and that the only people in Tahrir square now were Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. State TV started issuing statements on how the people arrested Israelis all over Cairo engaged in creating mayhem and causing chaos. For those of you who are counting this is an American-Israeli-Qatari-Muslim Brotherhood-Iranian-Hamas conspiracy. Imagine that. And MANY PEOPLE BOUGHT IT. I recall telling a friend of mine that the only good thing about what happened today was that it made clear to us who were the idiots amongst our friends. Now we know.
Now, just in case this isn’t clear: This protest is not one made or sustained by the Muslim Brotherhood, it’s one that had people from all social classes and religious background in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood only showed up on Tuesday, and even then they were not the majority of people there by a long shot. We tolerated them there since we won’t say no to fellow Egyptians who wanted to stand with us, but neither the Muslims Brotherhood not any of the Opposition leaders have the ability to turn out one tenth of the numbers of Protesters that were in Tahrir on Tuesday. This is a revolution without leaders. Three Million individuals choosing hope instead of fear and braving death on hourly basis to keep their dream of freedom alive. Imagine that.
The End is near. I have no illusions about this regime or its leader, and how he will pluck us and hunt us down one by one till we are over and done with and 8 months from now will pay people to stage fake protests urging him not to leave power, and he will stay “because he has to acquiesce to the voice of the people”. This is a losing battle and they have all the weapons, but we will continue fighting until we can’t. I am heading to Tahrir right now with supplies for the hundreds injured, knowing that today the attacks will intensify, because they can’t allow us to stay there come Friday, which is supposed to be the game changer. We are bringing everybody out, and we will refuse to be anything else than peaceful. If you are in Egypt, I am calling on all of you to head down to Tahrir today and Friday. It is imperative to show them that the battle for the soul of Egypt isn’t over and done with. I am calling you to bring your friends, to bring medical supplies, to go and see what Mubarak’s guarantees look like in real life. Egypt needs you. Be Heroes.
ITV's Mark Austin is sending some interesting tweets from Cairo:Ha!
An Egyptian friend has phoned me to say no pro Mubarak demos today because Mubarak can't afford to keep paying them
Al-Jazeera is investigating the hacking of its news website. The channel says the hacking was carried out "apparently by opponents of the pro-democracy movement in Egypt". The channel says its website has been under "relentless attack" since the Egyptian uprising began.Don't know if it's related.
In my estimation, the Tahrir Square demonstration was even bigger today than it was last Tuesday, when across Egypt, between 6 million and 8 million people protested, according to estimates. As the hour for curfew came and went tonight, thousands of people were still arriving to demonstrate. In Alexandria, an estimated 1 million people also turned out.posted by scody at 11:54 PM on February 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Everywhere, people were united around the slogan that Mubarak must go now. In Tahrir Square, there was an echo of the old civil rights slogan in the U.S. "We shall not be moved"--hundreds of thousands of people were chanting, "He should go! We will not move." Then there was my favorite slogan of the day: "Ya Mubarak, sahi el noum, inaharda akher youm!" It sounds better in Arabic because it rhymes, but it translates roughly into English as: "Wakey, wakey, Mubarak, today is the last day!
[...] the first thing that has to be grasped about the uprising [is] that this is a movement that seeks fundamental democratic rights. As a friend of mine put it a few days ago, it's the 1789 of Egypt--similar to the opening of the French Revolution in that way.
I think the second aspect that became certain today is that this is no longer the Egypt that existed prior to January 25--and there's no turning back, however much violence the regime tries to organize. A tipping point has been reached in terms of the willingness of masses of people to put themselves on the line and defy the existing order, and that's a genie that will be very difficult to put back in the bottle.
The third aspect apparent today was, as I described earlier, the enormous self-organization of the movement in the face of horrendous violence and repression--most especially, the attacks that took place over the past few days.
The fourth point is broader--about what happens next. You now have a movement that has emerged in a most explosive fashion and is present in every Egyptian town and city, which is the product of many, many years of injustice, including around economic questions of unemployment and dispossession. But it's also an expression of the rise of a number of social struggles in Egypt, including the strikes of the last few years and the riots over rising food prices.
Right now, the movement is united around the political aim of getting rid of Hosni Mubarak. But hopefully, once Mubarak is unseated, the political questions will then mesh with social questions that still remain unresolved.
. . . most of the protesters fear that if they leave the square they will immediately be arrested, along with their families, by Mubarak's cruel state security apparatus.posted by Mister Bijou at 2:45 AM on February 5, 2011
Already, there are dark reports of demonstrators who dared to return home and disappeared. The Egyptian writer Mohamed Fadel Fahmy, who is involved in the committee discussions, is fearful for himself. "We're safe as long as we have the square," he said to me yesterday, urging me to publish his name as a symbol of the freedom he demands. "If we lose the square, Mubarak will arrest all the opposition groups – and there will be police rule as never before. That's why we are fighting for our lives."
The state security police now have long lists of names of protesters who have given television interviews or been quoted in newspapers, Facebook postings and tweets.
Indeed, yesterday morning, to the shock of all of us standing on the western side of the square, a convoy of 4x4s with blackened windows suddenly emerged from the gardens of the neighbouring Egyptian Museum, slithered to a halt in front of us and was immediately surrounded by a praetorian guard of red-bereted soldiers and massive – truly gigantic – security guards in shades and holding rifles with telescopic sights. Then, from the middle vehicle emerged the diminutive, bespectacled figure of Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, the chief of staff of the Egyptian army and a lifelong friend of Mubarak, wearing a soft green military kepi and general's cross-swords insignia on his shoulders.posted by Mister Bijou at 2:57 AM on February 5, 2011
Here was a visitor to take the breath away, waving briefly to the protesters who crowded the military cordon to witness this extraordinary arrival . . .
Many Egyptian human rights activists arrested in the last few days remain in detention. A list of those detained follows after the jump. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of others that are also being detained, interrogated and tortured right now. Frightening as the attacks on foreign journalists have been, most of our colleagues have emerged relatively unscathed. It's the Egyptians being rounded up by police and intelligence that I truly fear for.posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:22 AM on February 5, 2011
Having a policeman say he wanted to kill me wasn’t my most frightening moment yesterday in Cairo. That came when police and civilians smashed our car windows -- with the five of us inside it -- jumped up and down on the roof, spat on us, pulled my hair, beat my friends and dragged us into a police van.posted by Mister Bijou at 6:53 AM on February 5, 2011
We wish to express our solidarity with the Venezuelan people and look forward to working with all democratic forces in Venezuela to ensure the full exercise of democratic rights. The Venezuelan military commendably refused to fire on peaceful demonstrators, and the media valiantly kept the Venezuelan public informed.And in this case, Chavez had been elected by free and fair elections, in contrast to Mubarak, who has not participated in a fair election in 30 years. Of course the other difference is that Chavez has been promoting Latin American independence, and Mubarak has been a loyal dog from the beginning.
Yesterday's events in Venezuela resulted in a transitional government until new elections can be held. Though details are still unclear, undemocratic actions committed or encouraged by the Chavez administration provoked yesterday's crisis in Venezuela.
“A page was turned. A first important step was taken,” says Wisner, vice chairman for external affairs at American International Group. “There will be many steps in the future. How Egypt manages those steps—this first one having been taken responsibly by the president and opposition—[will determine] what happens next. That’s really going to matter a great deal to us.”His goal is obvious: keep as much of the existing power structure in place as is possible. The only limiting factor is the ability of the security state to continue repressing demands for real democratic change.
. . .
I think it’s worth remembering, as far as we Americans are concerned, that what happens in Egypt is extremely important. This is the nation we have had the strongest possible ties with for nearly thirty years. It is a nation that has been key to peace-making in the Middle East. It’s a nation that is critical to the future of the Palestinian-Israeli equation. It’s a nation with influence in what happens in the months ahead in Iraq and inside of Arab councils in how Iraq is seen. Egypt is still, despite its more relative power, a center of Arab thinking, Arab culture, and Arab considerations of reform. (source)
One of the defining features of western reaction to the abrupt upheaval in Egypt is sheer ignorance. The vast majority of diplomats, politicians and journalists failed to anticipate it and lack a sufficiently textured understanding of Egyptian society to forecast what might happen next ....posted by nangar at 6:10 AM on February 6, 2011
Instead of loosening its grip, the existing government appeared to be consolidating its power: The prime minister said police forces were returning to the streets, and an army general urged protesters to scale back their occupation of Tahrir Square.No, America understands. That's the sad part.
Protesters interpreted the simultaneous moves by the Western leaders and Mr. Suleiman as a rebuff to their demands for an end to the dictatorship led for almost three decades by Mr. Mubarak, a pivotal American ally and pillar of the existing order in the Middle East.
Just days after President Obama demanded publicly that change in Egypt must begin right away, many in the streets accused the Obama administration of sacrificing concrete steps toward genuine change in favor of a familiar stability.
“America doesn’t understand,” said Ibrahim Mustafa, 42, who was waiting to enter Tahrir Square. “The people know it is supporting an illegitimate regime.”
Egyptian intelligence chief and Mubarak consigliere, in past years Soliman was often cited as likely to be named to the long-vacant vice-presidential post. In the past two years, Soliman has stepped out of the shadows, and allowed himself to be photographed, and his meetings with foreign leaders reported. Many of our contacts believe that Soliman, because of his military background, would at the least have to figure in any succession scenario for Gamal, possibly as a transitional figure. Soliman himself adamantly denies any personal ambitions, but his interest and dedication to national service is obvious. His loyalty to Bubarak seems rock-solid. At age 71, he could be attractive to the ruling apparatus and the public at large as a reliable figure unlikely to harbor ambitions for another multi-decade presidency. A key unanswered question is how he would respond to a Gamal presidency once Mubarak is dead. An alleged personal friend of soliman tells us that Soliman "detests" the idea of Gamal as president, and that he also was "deeply personally hurt" by Mubarak, who promised to name him vice-president several years ago, but then reneged.(Soliman = Suleiman)
"Anyone with good intentions is the traitor because being evil is the norm," he said. "If I was a traitor, I would have stayed in my villa in the Emirates and made good money and said like others, let this country go to hell. But we are not traitors," added Ghonim, an Egyptian who oversees Google's marketing in the Middle East and Africa from Dubai.posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 2:35 PM on February 7, 2011 [3 favorites]
[A] few protesters just decided to spend the night curled in among sprockets and treads of the tank, their bodies interlaced so that even a slight movement would grind up their bodies. At four in the morning, the protesters with their bodies in the tank were snoring. The tanks haven't been turned on since.I'm incredibly impressed with this, if only because I could never as a Dutch person in 2011 imagine circumstances in which I would have or want to do anything like it.
Is it conceivable that an Egyptian protestor was struggling to return to his house, whilst detained Hamas members managed to flee at such speed to Gaza, from the middle of Egypt? It is even more surprising that escaped Hezbollah members arrived in Beirut’s southern suburbs, or anywhere in Lebanon for that matter, at such a speed, especially considering that there are no adjacent borders between Egypt and Lebanon!posted by Joe in Australia at 8:27 PM on February 7, 2011
The revolt shaking Cairo didn't start in Cairo. It began in this city of textile mills and choking pollution set amid the cotton and vegetable fields of the Nile Delta.Interesting backgrounder/report on the labour movement in El Mahalla, from today's LA Times.
In a country where labor unrest was long thought to be a bigger threat than the demands of the urbanites now flooding the capital's Tahrir Square, El Mahalla el Kubra has long been a source of concern among officials. The 32,000 employees at government textile mills and tens of thousands more at smaller private factories are the soul of the Egyptian labor movement...
Do you honestly believe that these people who simply want what we all have, does the Vice President really believe they are insulting Egypt, belittling it? Those are the words of a man who believes his regime is Egypt and it is not.posted by scalefree at 10:54 AM on February 9, 2011 [3 favorites]
That is the message of these protesters. Egypt is not a government, it is not a dictator, it is not a regime. It is a proud country and a proud country and millions of them are calling for change even though the Vice President says the Egyptians aren't ready for democracy.
Were it to happen, obviously we would have to deal with it diplomatically, economically, militarily — but that to me is hypothetical.All aid "props up the state." Politics is largely the distribution of limited resources.
Egypt is a totalitarian dictatorship, with a terrible human rights record, a history of anti-democratic practices, and a political big brother that provides them with the means to continue oppressing their population. They have recently extended the permanent state of emergency that allows them to outlaw political parties, jail people (mostly journalists and dissidents) without trials, and beat protestors at their whim. -9/17/2010It's true; Obama gave a great speech in 2009. And then he did next to nothing in regards to changing policy:
One year after President Obama's speech in Cairo, Arab human rights activists have little good to say about the US government's record in the region. No-one doubts the President's good intentions, but American actions speak a different language, explains Bahey el Din Hassan, director of the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies.Even after their sham elections in 2010, the Administration said this:
And if the Americans are not in a position to do good deeds, they should at least refrain from doing harm, he continues, citing two examples: America's unconditional support for the bloody regime in Yemen and its recognition of the Egyptian government's official definition of NGOs, which severely limits the freedom of movement of members of civil society organisations. "It's just dreadful," he says.
The journalist Kamel Labidi is also calling for the public denunciation of human rights abuses. He now lives in the USA, but often travels to Arab countries and last May visited his native Tunisia, where a law has been enacted that prohibits human rights activists from making contact with foreign organisations. He is disappointed with the response of many governments to this law. "It is regrettable that European countries as well as the USA have remained silent on this issue." He goes on to say that the United States has even praised the Tunisian regime for its supposed progress on human rights, while completely ignoring its abuses.
The United States is disappointed with the conduct during and leading up to Egypt’s November 28 legislative elections. While we are continuing to assess reports from a variety of sources, the numerous reported irregularities at the polls, the lack of international monitors and the many problems encountered by domestic monitors, and the restrictions on the basic freedoms of association, speech and press in the run-up to the elections are worrying. That being said, the United States commends those Egyptians who participated in the parliamentary elections on Sunday — as candidates, campaigners, voters and election monitors. The United States has a longstanding partnership with the people of Egypt, rooted in common interests and shared values. We look forward to continuing to work with the Egyptian Government and Egypt’s vibrant civil society to help Egypt achieve its political, social, and economic aspirations consistent with international standards.I'm afraid to get all colloquial in the midst of these lovely words, but money talks and bullshit diplomatic jargon walks. Your projection of my position is yours, not mine. Only if you cover your eyes and ears for modern recorded history, and then pretend that the "fluid" position of the USG represents support of democracy does your position make any sense.
In October 2001, Habib was seized from a bus by Pakistani security forces. While detained in Pakistan, at the behest of American agents, he was suspended from a hook and electrocuted repeatedly. He was then turned over to the CIA, and in the process of transporting him to Egypt he endured the usual treatment: his clothes were cut off, a suppository was stuffed in his anus, he was put into a diaper - and 'wrapped up like a spring roll'.Look, klang: I have no idea why you're so credulous when it comes to America's support of democracy in Egypt. Three weeks of words do not equal two years worth of actions and weak statements of "concern" and even emptier speeches, and frankly pale in comparison to our long history of paying lip service to democratic movements throughout the region. Supporting a transition of power from President to Vice President, which is the way it's been done in Egypt for decades, is nothing new. Picking a virtual CIA asset to lord over the transition doesn't fill me with hope, especially when he's one of the most reviled men in his country, and has been the head of the intelligence services that have been doing the torturing and murdering for two decades.
In Egypt, as Habib recounts in his memoir, My Story: The Tale of a Terrorist Who Wasn’t, he was repeatedly subjected to electric shocks, immersed in water up to his nostrils and beaten. His fingers were broken and he was hung from metal hooks. At one point, his interrogator slapped him so hard that his blindfold was dislodged, revealing the identity of his tormentor: Suleiman.
...
A far more infamous torture case, in which Suleiman also is directly implicated, is that of Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi. Unlike Habib, who was innocent of any ties to terror or militancy, al-Libi was allegedly a trainer at al-Khaldan camp in Afghanistan. He was captured by the Pakistanis while fleeing across the border in November 2001. He was sent to Bagram, and questioned by the FBI. But the CIA wanted to take over, which they did, and he was transported to a black site on the USS Bataan in the Arabian Sea, then extraordinarily rendered to Egypt. Under torture there, al-Libi "confessed" knowledge about an al-Qaeda–Saddam connection, claiming that two al-Qaeda operatives had received training in Iraq for use in chemical and biological weapons. In early 2003, this was exactly the kind of information that the Bush administration was seeking to justify attacking Iraq and to persuade reluctant allies to go along. Indeed, al-Libi’s "confession" was one the central pieces of "evidence" presented at the United Nations by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell to make the case for war.
One of the best insights into what is happening here is provided by a 2009 book called “Generation in Waiting,” edited by Navtej Dhillon and Tarik Yousef, which examined how young people are coming of age in eight Arab countries. It contends that the great game that is unfolding in the Arab world today is not related to political Islam but is a “generational game” in which more than 100 million young Arabs are pressing against stifling economic and political structures that have stripped all their freedoms and given them in return one of the poorest education systems in the world, highest unemployment rates and biggest income gaps.posted by scody at 3:44 PM on February 9, 2011 [5 favorites]
As this dynamic of nonviolent resistance against entrenched regime violence plays out, it is worth noting that so far, Osama bin Laden and his Egyptian deputy, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, have had little - if anything - of substance to say about the revolution in Egypt. What they've failed to ignite with an ideology of a return to a mythical and pure beginning - and a strategy of human bombs, IEDs, and planes turned into missiles - a disciplined, forward-thinking yet amorphous group of young activists and their more experienced comrades, "secular" and "religious" together (to the extent these terms are even relevant anymore), have succeeded in setting a fire with a universal discourse of freedom, democracy and human values - and a strategy of increasingly calibrated chaos aimed at uprooting one of the world's longest serving dictators.posted by notion at 8:14 PM on February 9, 2011 [1 favorite]
As one chant in Egypt put it succinctly, playing on the longstanding chants of Islamists that "Islam is the solution", with protesters shouting: "Tunisia is the solution."
4.01pm: Reuters is reporting a CIA official as saying that Mubarak is strongly likely to step down tonight.posted by proj at 8:06 AM on February 10, 2011 [1 favorite]
An Egyptian official has told the news agency Mubarak's fate will be decided in a matter of hours and "most probably" he will step down.
Interviewer: "Wasn't the protesters' message clear for President Mubarak to step down and pass his responsibilities to vice-president Omar Suleiman?"
Shafiq: "What you say is being discussed now. Whether it is positive or negative, this will be clarified soon."
3.45pm: To sum up: Hosni Mubarak will meet the demands of protesters, officials from the military and the ruling NDP party have told various news organisations. The protesters' key demand is that Mubarak stand down as president.
The military's supreme council has been meeting today, without Mubarak, who is the commander in chief, and announced on state TV its "support of the legitimate demands of the people".
A spokesman said the council was in permanent session "to explore what measures and arrangements could be made to safeguard the nation, its achievements and the ambitions of its great people".
General Hassan al-Roueini, the military commander for the Cairo area, told thousands of protesters in central Tahrir Square: "All your demands will be met today."
I know that you woke up in a world with Egypt in it just this last week, but Obama spoke in Egypt about democracy to Egyptians in July. So perhaps just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it didn't happen?Wow, talk about being both insulting and wrong. Obama never said people in Egypt, specifically, should have a democracy or criticized Mubarak until the uprising. Do you seriously think no one in this thread has been aware of the oppressive nature of the Egyptian government until the past few weeks? WTF?
AHDAD SOUEIF: I am just completely, completely overwhelmed and I’m just trying to kind of, you know, write my copy for tomorrow, my article, but I can hardly breathe... You know, you can – you can hear all the joy cries, the phones – the phones just won’t stop ringing, people just saying congratulations.She's at 55 minutes in or so. And that's all I have to say about that.
You know what I first thought? I thought I have seen two women in Tahrir Square fully pregnant and waiting to deliver, and they’ve been saying, you know, ‘When it comes, when it comes,’ and ‘I will call my daughter Liberty,’ and I – my thought was that they can now have their babies.
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posted by fuq at 5:57 PM on January 27, 2011 [38 favorites]