Why Do They Hate Americans?
October 13, 2001 11:35 AM   Subscribe

Why Do They Hate Americans? (I know, I know it is very close in title to the post below, but differs in content). Prior to September 11 I had really mixed feelings on the policies (foreign and domestic) of the U.S. of A. (and I still do), but this article was read on a talk radio show as I was driving to work. Not to sound sappy, but it really did move me. Best part of all, its not written by an American.
posted by sharksandwich (36 comments total)
 
Most accurate & telling part of the article is the aspect dealing with what the world would be like right now if there had been no "America" during the last 60 or so years. The article answers itself: a bit like hell, probably. While I readily admit that America is not perfect, it is quite arguably the most perfect nation in existence. Other nations are similar in style & substance, but none have the scope of USA. The world is immeasurably & absolutely better for having America. That anyone could even debate this point would be laughable, were it not so scary.

Thanks for the post, sharksandwich; I'd read it when it was initially posted (late Sept), but forgotten where it was.
posted by davidmsc at 11:54 AM on October 13, 2001


Very nice piece. Has the balence I like in issues where more often than not everything gets simplfied. I have little sympathy for Iraq when in fact they have been found to be shipping food OUT of the country rather than feeding their kids and when they pay ten thousand bucks to every family that loses a kid in the Intifada and do little or nothing for their own.
A wonderful piece in the NY Times today on the background of Arab/Muslim resentment and the fundamentalists, going well back before Israel existed . A great fear of a contaminated Islam that must oust the West and establish theocractic government.
I like it here and think I will hang out for a time, despite Chomsky's warnings about how weicked we are.
posted by Postroad at 11:55 AM on October 13, 2001


"While I readily admit that America is not perfect, it is quite arguably the most perfect nation in existence. Other nations are similar in style & substance, but none have the scope of USA."

I agree, but in spending time in Holland, Germany, Belgium etc., I often have found myself wanting to stay for longer. Maybe its the lure of socialized medicine, or the deeper value placed on family and culture, or the overall openness, I don't know. While always happy to arrive back home to Wisconsin, I constantly have this pang to spend more time "over there".

I also find it amazing that most Europeans seem to know more about our country (politically and historically, that is) than 95% of Americans. That fact initially spurned me to begin reading more American history books. Howard Zinn's "A People's History of The United States" opened my eyes as well as my mind.

Any of our friends across-the-pond want to weigh in on this one?
posted by sharksandwich at 12:21 PM on October 13, 2001


Sorry, but watching things play out from north of the border I'm not seeing a whole lot of balance in this article. For example, yes the US and allied forces did eject Iraq from Kuwait. What the article doesn't mention is that the Kruds were then goaded into stepping up their resistance to Hussein with promises of support from the US military. Those promises fizzled out and allowed Iraq to resume cutting down groups of wandering Kurds in the dessert. There is undeniably a lot of good that has come out of US involvement in the 20th century, but they have hardly come out of it with their hands clean. This article is jingoistic in one of the most sinister ways - it pretends to be fair and balanced.
posted by holycola at 12:31 PM on October 13, 2001


This is old, old, old. It's been discussed here before and all over the Net. I remember Brian Appleyard once writing a piece about how high school movies such as THe Faculty were the saviour of cinema. He wrote another where he went undercover into a seance where spooky things were said to be happening, and, to his utter amazement, discovered it was a trick. He's a twat of the highest order.
posted by Summer at 12:47 PM on October 13, 2001


While I readily admit that America is not perfect, it is quite arguably the most perfect nation in existence

I've come to realise this is a common view in America, mainly from comments posted to MeFi. Are you really confident you know enough about other nations to make this judgement? It seems a ridiculous statement to make in relation to any country.

I read somewhere recently, in connection with the Australian rugby league team refusing to travel to Europe, that both Americans and Australians share the view that their countries are oases of light and beauty and that the outside world is a benighted and second-rate place. The WTC incident seems to have brought a lot of that out in people.
posted by Summer at 12:59 PM on October 13, 2001


"It seems a ridiculous statement to make in relation to any country".Well ma'am,are you confident that YOU know enough about other nations to make your judgement?I don't,but I do notice MILLIONS of folks coming here every year to get a fresh start...Please explain this immigration.
posted by Mack Twain at 1:13 PM on October 13, 2001


What do you think:

"Bin Laden can't have his Timex and hate it too."
© 2001 UrbanFigaro
posted by UrbanFigaro at 1:18 PM on October 13, 2001


The WTC "incident," Summer? Perhaps you didn't intend it, but that word trivializes what happened. I suggest "massacre," "catastrophe," or "atrocity."
posted by mw at 1:26 PM on October 13, 2001


I don't want to get into a heavy argument Mack as I'm premenstrual and ready to kill, but lots of countries get a huge number of immigrants. We're going through a bit of an asylum seeker crisis over here in Europe and Australia's practically beating them off with sticks. I'm not attacking America, just anyone's presumption that their nation is more 'perfect' than another. You can prefer one over another and even make an argument that it's a happier place, but the word perfect just isn't appropriate.
posted by Summer at 1:31 PM on October 13, 2001


No, I didn't intend it mw. Atrocity would be my word of choice.
posted by Summer at 1:32 PM on October 13, 2001


A few years back, a scholar at Harvard noted toward the end of a book he wrote that in the next coming years the world would be faced with those trying by all means possible to leave places (countries) unable to sustain life (food and water and jobs) to get to places that offered a better chance at life, and that this fact, combined with growing population in the bad-off countries would present many problems. He seems on target.
posted by Postroad at 2:52 PM on October 13, 2001


summer: I'm not attacking America, just anyone's presumption that their nation is more 'perfect' than another.

Yet more moral equivocation. OK, let's try this: if you value freedom, democracy, capitalism, diversity, opportunity, and tolerance, then the U.S. is more perfect than most/all (take your pick) other nations.

If you value repression, misogyny, theocracy, etc, then you would be correct in stating that the U.S. is NOT a more perfect nation than most/all others.

Happy?
posted by davidmsc at 3:02 PM on October 13, 2001


America also seems to be the most perfect nation in the world -- that is, if you value asses who are full of themselves.
posted by dhartung at 3:15 PM on October 13, 2001


I'm not going to take on your point in detail, davidmsc, because it'll degenerate into a 'my country is better than your country' argument. But do you really think America is the only democratic, racially diverse, capitalist country with freedom of religion, gender equality and anti-racism built into its laws? Do you think you invented these ideas?
posted by Summer at 3:26 PM on October 13, 2001


Those promises fizzled out and allowed Iraq to resume cutting down groups of wandering Kurds in the dessert.


But for many, like myself, that is the ultimate irony. It was the pressure from the intellectual left and the anti-war movement that resulted in a partial campaign. Once we had ejected Iraq from Kuwait, the left was howling that any further involvement was unnecessary. Then these same people point out that we abandoned the Kurds.


Out of one side of their mouths they claim that we should use diplomatic means to resolve the conflict in Afghanistan while out of the other side of their mouth they condemn sanctions against Iraq because it has imposed suffering on the Iraqi people.


The problem with the intellectual left is that they offer no solutions. All they offer is ideals. "Use diplomatic measures" but then not offer an acceptable diplomatic solution. "Eliminate the root causes" but then offer no details on how they can be eliminated without the US simply becoming the world welfare agency. They offer no solutions because they are usually ill-informed, pseudo-intellects who are much better at pontification than action. It is much safer to sit back and send letters condemning the war than it is to present solutions. Solutions can be proven wrong, ideals can never be proven wrong because there is always the out that they weren't implemented perfectly.


I don't blindly follow the government, nor am I prone to fits of jingoism but the US has done a wonderful job over the years. Not a perfect job, but considering how the US could have abused its power, it's been pretty fair. We had a 5 year period in which we were the sole country to possess the atomic bomb and we didn't use that power to blow every other country off the planet. We didn't punish Germany and Japan after WWII, rather we helped rebuild them. Did we have self-serving motivations? Sure, but you can't eliminate human nature. We're far from perfect but we're a long way from being "The Great Satan".


When the intellectual-left begins protesting the foreign aid workers being held under the umbrella of trying to preach Christianity, I'll give their arguments a little more credibility. When they protest the treatment of women by the Taliban, I'll be more open to their views. When they protest the attacks on the WTC, the USS Cole, the US embassies, I'll consider opening my ear. Until then, they are simply a bunch of worthless cowards who blanket themselves in the US Constitution but would flee rather than to defend it.
posted by billman at 3:34 PM on October 13, 2001



I read somewhere recently, in connection with the Australian rugby league team refusing to travel to Europe, that both Americans and Australians share the view that their countries are oases of light and beauty and that the outside world is a benighted and second-rate place.

Well, I think it depends on just what part of the outside world they're directly comparing themselves. For example, I could find a debate on "Which is a better place to live, the US or Australia" to be an interesting conversation. If the debate were "Which is a better place to live, the US or Iraq," I'd just roll my eyes and move on to another thread.
posted by aaron at 3:52 PM on October 13, 2001



But do you really think America is the only democratic, racially diverse, capitalist country with freedom of religion, gender equality and anti-racism built into its laws?

I don't. But I do believe that without the US, a lot of those other countries either would not exist today at all, or would at least have far more repressive governments. And that does give us a bit more to crow about when this question comes up.
posted by aaron at 3:59 PM on October 13, 2001



There's a whole lot of countries of many different flavours outside of the two extremes of Australia and Iraq. There seems to be an opinion now in America that there are two philosophies in the world: American democracy (encompassing Europe and Australia, who are inferior reflections of the same) or fundamentalist Islam and you take your pick, one or the other. Or course it used to be America or Russia, take your pick. You can't polarise the world in this way. Even Bush did it with his 'you're either with us or against us' speech. It's arrogant and insulting.
posted by Summer at 4:04 PM on October 13, 2001


And that does give us a bit more to crow about when this question comes up

Which question Aaron? The 'who's the most perfect nation?' question? It's the question I'm objecting to. It's the attitude I'm objecting to.
posted by Summer at 4:08 PM on October 13, 2001


> But I do believe that without the US, a lot of those other countries either would not exist today ...

What does this mean? Talk about a hard-to-evaluate counterfactual. It is pretty hard to imagine how the world would be different if most of North America was still a British colony or the continent didn't exist at all, etc. Maybe everything would have worked out much better; maybe we'd all speak Javanese and communism would've been great in practice.
--
But in answer to the link title: Why do they hate us?

Because we don't even know why they hate us.
posted by sylloge at 4:40 PM on October 13, 2001


As a naturalized citizen, all I have to say is that America IS the GREATEST NATION ON THIS PLANET. BAR NONE! No nation is perfect -- but this country is as close as it comes. And it took a massive tragedy for me to realize it! The constitution is the greatest document ever written, and majority of Americans are great people -- they have open minds and love of life. I couldn't imagine living anywhere else -- and I have.

The rest of the world -- especially those who belittle or criticize America in her time of distress -- can simply GO TO HELL. I loved this article. It put a lot of things in perspective for me. Those people who rant against America, do so because of religious/ethnic bias, or they JUST DON'T KNOW or CARE TO KNOW what this nation -- and it's people -- are all about. And THAT is a great shame.
posted by Rastafari at 10:22 PM on October 13, 2001


It is pretty hard to imagine how the world would be different if most of North America was still a British colony or the continent didn't exist at all, etc.

I didn't necessarily mean "without the US" to mean "if the country did not and never had existed." It was meant to equally emcompass a scenario in which we simply remained isolationist. (For example, wondering what would Europe and Asia be like today if we'd completely ignored WWII and let Germany and Japan do whatever they wanted with the rest of the world.)

Because we don't even know why they hate us.

We know quite well why they hate us. It's all anyone's talked about for the last month.

Which question Aaron? The 'who's the most perfect nation?' question? It's the question I'm objecting to. It's the attitude I'm objecting to.

I was responding to the "Is my country better than [insert other country here]" question. Yes, I fully believe it's possible to rank countries on the basis of any number of things. To think that arrogant is to be a moral relativist, IMHO. Like I said, claiming that America is better than Canada or Australia might be a bit of a challenge to back up. To claim that America is better than almost any Islamic-governed nation (save for Turkey) is so obvious as be practically fact rather than opinion. We live better lives, we treat people better in almost every way one can think of, etc.
posted by aaron at 10:38 PM on October 13, 2001



What does this mean? Talk about a hard-to-evaluate counterfactual. It is pretty hard to imagine how the world would be different if most of North America was still a British colony or the continent didn't exist at all, etc.

Well if N. America was still a British Colony, part would still be a colony of France (Louisiana), and the other part would still be a part of Mexico (or Spain). Hell maybe Spain would still dominate the American continents if we hadn't kicked them out.

Maybe everything would have worked out much better; maybe we'd all speak Javanese and communism would've been great in practice.

Sure after Stalin and Mao got done killing ten's of millions of people things would've worked out.

There seems to be an opinion now in America that there are two philosophies in the world: American democracy (encompassing Europe and Australia, who are inferior reflections of the same) or fundamentalist Islam and you take your pick, one or the other. Or course it used to be America or Russia, take your pick. You can't polarise the world in this way. Even Bush did it with his 'you're either with us or against us' speech. It's arrogant and insulting.

And Iran is a much better place to live then the USA.

Both the above posts and posters border on being trolls so much that even replying to them feels silly. But since calling someone a troll and leaving it at that is dumb I did. (g)

I also find it amazing that most Europeans seem to know more about our country (politically and historically, that is) than 95% of Americans. That fact initially spurned me to begin reading more American history books. Howard Zinn's "A People's History of The United States" opened my eyes as well as my mind.

An interesting book that was revealing when it first came out. But, is now tired repitition of the majority of history books and popular history available in culture today (movies, music, etc.). And even then the book isn't half as bad as "A People's History of insert any other country's name here" would be.

I agree, but in spending time in Holland, Germany, Belgium etc., I often have found myself wanting to stay for longer. Maybe its the lure of socialized medicine, or the deeper value placed on family and culture, or the overall openness, I don't know. While always happy to arrive back home to Wisconsin, I constantly have this pang to spend more time "over there".

I agree with this. But, my thinking is that has to more with age of everything there. Things are so much older that the history behind everything makes it seem that much more intelligent. Hell, most of these country's are alot more mature than the US. But, whether that made any difference during the horrors of Holland's colonization's (Indonesia, S. Africa, etc.), the two World Wars of Germany, or the destruction of the Congo and Central Africa by Belgium, things that are hundred times worse than anything America has ever done, even in Vietnam, or the subjugation of the Indians, I think not, and if anything that lack of history, immaturity, stupid, thickness helped alot.

I wanted to quote and comment on the article but this post is getting pretty long, and the other posts coverered it pretty well anyway, so good night. America sucks, long live America.
posted by redleaf at 2:07 AM on October 14, 2001


redleaf: Hell maybe Spain would still dominate the American continents if we hadn't kicked them out.

excuse the fuck out of me?????
the US??
kicked out??
Spain??
please, somebody get this boy a history book.
fast!
posted by signal at 2:52 AM on October 14, 2001


"arguably the most perfect nation in existence" can appear, well....a little arrogant to those of us who have the means to chose anywhere in the world to live, and chose not to live in the US. However, one of the fascinating attributes of the Average American* to the non-American is his/her combination of unquestioning patriotism and assiduous geographical incuriosity. So it is easy to understand why you think it might be so, and put the opinion in its proper place.

I'm prepared to question whether my country (UK) gets it right, and am assiduously curious about the world. It was interesting, therefore, to find the UN coming, by a process of measurement, to the same conclusion that I had arrived at by gut feel - that NORWAY is the best place in the world to live! Should you believe that Norway is 'the best' country in the world to live? Of course not (well, yes if you value education standards, life expectance, gross domestic product indicators, unqualified access to medical care and a relative absence of crime) - it depends on what you value, and that has to be a personal choice.

But some (a large number, as it turns out) people hate Americans because they don't value what Americans value, hate it when Americans seek impose their (inferior) values on them, and hate it when Americans dismiss as 'laughable' their assertion that they prefer their own value systems. Comments by Davismsc and co. always bring me, temporarily, a little closer to understanding why that might be so.

* The Standard Average American is preserved in a protective atmosphere at the Institute of International Standards in Geneva.
posted by RichLyon at 5:13 AM on October 14, 2001


American values are exactly the same as European values. It's silly to pretend otherwise. Regional variations are just that, within the U.S. and within Europe. Besides, "people" don't hate Americans. Kipling was right: East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet. There is such a thing as Western culture and it's no use denying it - or making the U.S. stand for everything about it that's less appealing.

Also, forgive me for chuckling at all the earnest advice coming from subjects of Her Majesty. In England - don't know about Scotland or Wales - everybody despises everybody else and that's what makes it such an interesting country.

But to have the Anglos lecture the Yanks on arrogance and ignorance of the world...

Sub-standard Monty Python, to say the least.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 5:30 AM on October 14, 2001


In England - don't know about Scotland or Wales - everybody despises everybody else and that's what makes it such an interesting country

As someone from England, I find that an interesting statement, Miguel. Please explain how you have arrived at that notion.
posted by normy at 7:43 AM on October 14, 2001


There you go again. It's silly to pretend otherwise. Where precisely is the similarity in our values over gun laws? Litigation? A Devil-take-the-hindmost welfare system? The death penalty? Defence of free speech to the detriment of collective security? These aren't 'regional variations' - we speak the same language, but in many ways your country is as alien to me as China is.

Of course the world is a better place for the US's presence in it - but much of that comes from the fact that you sit on top of a fat proportion of its resources, not the absolute transendence of your social and political model (in my view). You would have to be actively working hard at screwing it up (like the USSR did for 80 years) before your contribution to the world went negative.

So no. I don't share many of the values which define who you are, and certainly do not concede that the US is the most perfect nation in existence. Doesn't make you bad people. Please don't be offended by that - I am not in the least offended by you not wishing to be Scottish.
posted by RichLyon at 7:59 AM on October 14, 2001


Man oh man. What a dialog!

Like most things these day NOTHING can be seen in terms of black and white. Problems/issues are just too complex for something so simple. And my own world view has developed by accepting that there are numerous shades of gray to any argument. That's why I hesitate to accept political (or any other) spinmeisters immediately. I even hesitiated to digest Bush's "your either with or against us." I still haven't arrived at a personal conclusion to that statement.

This article makes some good and interesting points. Is it something that answers EVERYTHING and puts it into a tidy neat (read "easily palatable and digestable") box? No. But it does illuminate my world view and that's a good thing.

Is this the greatest country in world history? I'm not even touching that one. It's not important to me to do so. I like living here. For various reasons. I also accept the fact that others may feel otherwise. No problem.

But when ANYONE speaks for "me" (as an American) without my permission or pretends to characterize Americans as a homogenous group of people I bristle (I have been known to voice protest about government and pundit povs in the past). When people kill innocent people (people who, in a "my" rational sense, did not choose to participate directly in our country's geo-political objectives --right or wrong) I get angry.

As for being able to come to a conclusion about what's happening, I can't yet. Not enough time has past.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 8:15 AM on October 14, 2001


They [the US] confronted and peacefully defeated Soviet communism.

I didn't get much past this. I guess the author conveniently forgot about the U.S.'s support of brutal dictatorships (Indonesia, Nicaragua, Congo) and American involvement in the overthrowing of democratically elected governments (Guatemala, Chile), at the expense of thousands upon thousands of lives...all in the name of "fighting communism."
posted by mapalm at 9:08 AM on October 14, 2001


However, one of the fascinating attributes of the Average American* to the non-American is his/her combination of unquestioning patriotism...

Anyone that thinks the average American blindingly accepts anything and everything his/her government does is not at all aware of the average American.
posted by aaron at 10:20 AM on October 14, 2001



Damn it, hit the wrong button. I wanted this as one post...

hate it when Americans seek impose their (inferior) values on them.

How often does this actually happen? I couldn't care less whether or not the average Norwegian (or anybody else) wants to eat at McDonald's or not. I don't care whether they view American movies. Our 'imposition of American values' is rarely more than the simple act of making American products available on the market. If the citizens of other countries clamor for these American products/values/ideas, why is that our fault?

and hate it when Americans dismiss as 'laughable' their assertion that they prefer their own value systems.

Well, one of the big problems is that whenever someone brings this up, they tend to do it not by merely stating that they "prefer their own value systems," but instead by praising their own system as arrogantly as the Americans everyone is knocking in this thread. (I.E, "We have socialized medicine, ergo we are better than the United States.") This isn't any more tolerable for us coming from you than it is for you when it comes from one of us.
posted by aaron at 10:32 AM on October 14, 2001



ooohh, a pissing match!

Does anybody seriously believe some country is the "most perfect"? [BTW "perfect" is an absolute, you can't be "more perfect" any more than you can be "slightly inmortal", "kind of infinite" or "nearly god", unless you're Tricky]
posted by signal at 11:54 AM on October 14, 2001


Aaron - which part of "Should you believe that Norway is 'the best' country in the world to live? Of course not" was unclear? The "ergo" is your assumption, not either my statement or my belief. And I have made no comment on which is better in any absolute sense - as signal points out, how can I? I have simply indicated which I prefer. I sense that if you are a little piqued it is because I don't prefer what you do.

To your other point: I wasn't really thinking of McDonalds and movies (and I'm sure Gates would love your 'making products available on the market' euphemism!) I was thinking more of non-US companies that can't do business with Iran, Cuba, etc., etc. because US doesn't like it and will stop trading with us if we do. I was thinking of 1.5m dead Iraqi civilians who's government's values your government (via the UN, of course) doesn't like so has imposed trade sanctions on, etc, etc. But another thread, another flame war, I guess.
posted by RichLyon at 1:35 PM on October 14, 2001


redleaf: Well if N. America was still a British Colony, part would still be a colony of France ...

You pretty sure about that? If the American Revolution didn't happen, would that necessitate France and Spain retaining their colonies? My point was that there is a good dose of contingency in America's coming to have the position in currently has in the world. American hegemony was not predestined; it seems just as likely that the result of continued isolationism would have been a weak country that never fully got out of the depression, never gave rise to the sucessive technology booms, etc.

Aaron:

>> Because we don't even know why they hate us.

> We know quite well why they hate us. It's all anyone's talked about for the last month.

While my original statement was, ok, a little facile, your response is just completely false. We might have talked a lot about it on MeFi, but I'm sure I that for every piece you could find in the mainstream media that analyzed how America is viewed by the rest of the world, I could find 100 WTC-related articles on other topics.

I should make clear that I don't think we "owe" it to the terrorists to try and show a little understanding. I don't even think it should be a question of criminality -- they should be found and killed.

But I do hope that one of the ways the world has changed now is that Americans will become more aware of what happens outside their borders and show a little more solidarity with the rest of the world.
posted by sylloge at 6:58 PM on October 14, 2001


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