Her legacy is rooted in resisting the foundation of American capitalism.
May 14, 2015 5:28 AM Subscribe
Keep Harriet Tubman – and all women – off the $20 bill. "Harriet Tubman did not fight for capitalism, free trade, or competitive markets."
By Feminista Jones.
By Feminista Jones.
Money pre-dates all three of those concepts, and with any luck it will outlive them as well.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:37 AM on May 14, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:37 AM on May 14, 2015 [20 favorites]
America’s currency is viewed as a place to honor people of historic political influence. To suggest that black women are part of that club by putting Tubman’s face on the $20 simply would cover up our nation’s reality of historic and lingering disenfranchisement.
Respectfully, I disagree. For one thing, the faces on currency don't have to represent any sort of political or social elite. France, for instance, often honours artists this way. Aside from that, Tubman is indeed a figure of "historic political influence", whether she's in any sort of club or not.
But most importantly, it's not just a question of "cover[ing] up our nation’s reality of historic and lingering disenfranchisement". You don't have to deny that reality to help build a new one. And whose faces feature on the currency is one of the many ways in which children grow up learning about the unspoken pecking orders. Having a black president, having leading women in films who talk to each other about subjects other than men, having people of colour represented in the media as simply people like any other ... and having women of colour on banknotes. These are all ways that we can start making this a fairer world.
posted by iotic at 5:38 AM on May 14, 2015 [24 favorites]
Respectfully, I disagree. For one thing, the faces on currency don't have to represent any sort of political or social elite. France, for instance, often honours artists this way. Aside from that, Tubman is indeed a figure of "historic political influence", whether she's in any sort of club or not.
But most importantly, it's not just a question of "cover[ing] up our nation’s reality of historic and lingering disenfranchisement". You don't have to deny that reality to help build a new one. And whose faces feature on the currency is one of the many ways in which children grow up learning about the unspoken pecking orders. Having a black president, having leading women in films who talk to each other about subjects other than men, having people of colour represented in the media as simply people like any other ... and having women of colour on banknotes. These are all ways that we can start making this a fairer world.
posted by iotic at 5:38 AM on May 14, 2015 [24 favorites]
Yes, she did. Slavery is anti-capitalist, as it steals labor. It's anti-free trade, because it depresses prices in favor of the slavers. It's anti-competition, because it doesn't allow labor to move to a more competitive workplace.
And beyond the pull quote, it won't distort Tubman's legacy at all. No one who would say "Well, racism is solved!" when she goes on the $20 is the sort of person who was actually working toward racial equality.
It's a nice way of getting more eyeballs on the movement to get Jackson off the $20, but it's not really an argument.
posted by Etrigan at 5:41 AM on May 14, 2015 [33 favorites]
And beyond the pull quote, it won't distort Tubman's legacy at all. No one who would say "Well, racism is solved!" when she goes on the $20 is the sort of person who was actually working toward racial equality.
It's a nice way of getting more eyeballs on the movement to get Jackson off the $20, but it's not really an argument.
posted by Etrigan at 5:41 AM on May 14, 2015 [33 favorites]
I'm on the same page with everyone else so far. We are always going to need some form of currency, and a form that honors the contributions of people of renown who represent a broader swath of the American public is a good idea. I am able to separate decisions about this form of honoring from critiques of capitalism and think there is more to be gained than lost in putting Tubman on the $20, especially since it means replacing a human-rights criminal with a human-rights advocate.
posted by Miko at 5:43 AM on May 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Miko at 5:43 AM on May 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
By escaping slavery and helping many others do the same, Tubman became historic for essentially stealing “property.” Her legacy is rooted in resisting the foundation of American capitalism.
I don't think this is true. Black people held in slavery were not property; they were subjected to the illegitimate claim they were property as a rationale for exploiting their labor. Perhaps Jones means to acknowledge this but putting "property" in scare quotes, but the next sentence implies that Tubman's endeavor involved resisting the notion of property per se, and I don't think that Tubman had that intention.
I think the problem with this piece is that Jones is a lazy writer. This passages is an example: For every dollar a white man earns from his labor in the United States, white women earn 78 cents, black women earn 64 cents, and Hispanic women earn just 54 cents.
As written, it suggest that the money a white man earns from his labor is split between him, white women, black women and Hispanic women. Sure, he gets the biggest share, but since he's doing all the work, that only seems fair.
posted by layceepee at 5:49 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is true. Black people held in slavery were not property; they were subjected to the illegitimate claim they were property as a rationale for exploiting their labor. Perhaps Jones means to acknowledge this but putting "property" in scare quotes, but the next sentence implies that Tubman's endeavor involved resisting the notion of property per se, and I don't think that Tubman had that intention.
I think the problem with this piece is that Jones is a lazy writer. This passages is an example: For every dollar a white man earns from his labor in the United States, white women earn 78 cents, black women earn 64 cents, and Hispanic women earn just 54 cents.
As written, it suggest that the money a white man earns from his labor is split between him, white women, black women and Hispanic women. Sure, he gets the biggest share, but since he's doing all the work, that only seems fair.
posted by layceepee at 5:49 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
musicians on our money [...] Willie Nelson
The US Treasury is pleased to announce its new $420 bill.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:56 AM on May 14, 2015 [40 favorites]
The US Treasury is pleased to announce its new $420 bill.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:56 AM on May 14, 2015 [40 favorites]
Until we end up with pretty money like the Dutch used to have, it's all just mucky green-tinged stuffy assemblages of compromise, no matter who's on there. I want Harriet Tubman, Fred Rogers, and lots of color.
posted by sonascope at 5:59 AM on May 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by sonascope at 5:59 AM on May 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
You can count me among those who see Jones' point but doesn't necessarily agree with it. Part of the problem for me is the title of the piece, which sounds like something straight out of National Review or The Wall Street Journal. Of course there are times when the Post sounds a lot like those two publications.
posted by TedW at 6:07 AM on May 14, 2015
posted by TedW at 6:07 AM on May 14, 2015
But in examining Tubman’s life, it’s clear that putting her face on America’s currency would undermine her legacy.If we follow this logic out, then only those figures whose legacy we wish to diminish and revile belong on our dirty dirty money. With that in mind let me suggest the following: Nixon on the 1$; Jeff Davis on the 2$; Lee Harvey Oswald on the 5$; Anita Bryant on the 10$; Jackson can stay on the 20$; George Lincoln Rockwell on the 50$; and Charles Manson on the 100$.
Remember! Vote with your money. Vote evil.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:08 AM on May 14, 2015 [19 favorites]
I don't know if the Washington Post is like most publications in this way, but most writers do not get to choose their own headlines.
posted by NoraReed at 6:13 AM on May 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 6:13 AM on May 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
The people on American currency helped shape this country. For better or for worse, they symbolize not only America's founding ideals, but those we have subsequently adopted. For example, Lincoln is thought of as a sort of civil rights activist -- a concept that would have been completely foreign a hundred years earlier.
American history is filled with course corrections -- people who are honored for fighting the status quo and changing this country for the better. Tubman is the epitome of someone whose actions are rightfully honored today, but were controversial in large swathes of the US at the time.
I don't think refusing to honor her somehow whitewashes what she fought for.
posted by zarq at 6:14 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
American history is filled with course corrections -- people who are honored for fighting the status quo and changing this country for the better. Tubman is the epitome of someone whose actions are rightfully honored today, but were controversial in large swathes of the US at the time.
I don't think refusing to honor her somehow whitewashes what she fought for.
posted by zarq at 6:14 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I do not believe Tubman, who died impoverished in 1913, would accept the “honor,” were it actually bestowed upon her, of having her face on America’s money. And until the economic injustice against women in America ends, no woman should.
How convenient for the reactionary bullshit parade that is the Washington Post, to have a Black woman who's willing to make a principled stand out of the claim that women really shouldn't have any greater symbolic power until they've forced other concessions first. It's like a fucking Zeno's paradox of anti-woman sophistry.
posted by clockzero at 6:14 AM on May 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
How convenient for the reactionary bullshit parade that is the Washington Post, to have a Black woman who's willing to make a principled stand out of the claim that women really shouldn't have any greater symbolic power until they've forced other concessions first. It's like a fucking Zeno's paradox of anti-woman sophistry.
posted by clockzero at 6:14 AM on May 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
Count me with the people who think this is a very American-centric view of who shows up on currency. If other countries have handled it better, perhaps we should follow their lead?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:15 AM on May 14, 2015
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:15 AM on May 14, 2015
The US Treasury is pleased to announce its new $420 bill.
Snoop Dog?
posted by huguini at 6:17 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Snoop Dog?
posted by huguini at 6:17 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know if the Washington Post is like most publications in this way, but most writers do not get to choose their own headlines.
It's not a unique headline anyway. I saw it last month in The Root, where the author (Kirsten West Savali) referred to the concept as "hush money" and said the concept was distasteful because the $20 bill is the most counterfeited and commonly traded of all US currency.
posted by zarq at 6:18 AM on May 14, 2015
It's not a unique headline anyway. I saw it last month in The Root, where the author (Kirsten West Savali) referred to the concept as "hush money" and said the concept was distasteful because the $20 bill is the most counterfeited and commonly traded of all US currency.
posted by zarq at 6:18 AM on May 14, 2015
After a recent visit to the Tubman Home in Auburn, where a wonderful docent really brought the woman to life, it is clear to me that were Tubman alive today her laser focus would be not on what was printed on the money, but on whether the money was being used to help those most in need.
posted by kinnakeet at 6:26 AM on May 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by kinnakeet at 6:26 AM on May 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
I can't imagine Tubman would want to be associated with the institutional structure, including dirty wars, grinding racism and poverty, and the general racist imperialism that support these United States.
It would certainly give her a great and bitter laugh, could she be aware of it, at this point.
posted by allthinky at 6:34 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
It would certainly give her a great and bitter laugh, could she be aware of it, at this point.
posted by allthinky at 6:34 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Slavery is anti-capitalist, as it steals labor.
Stealing labor is pretty fundamental to capitalism. The early American economy doesn't get off the ground without slavery. Also, capitalism does not lead to competition.
I cannot see why it's better to have Andrew Jackson's picture on the 20 dollar bill than Harriet Tubman's. The only better idea would be to put John Brown on the hundred. America should go for that. He's a white guy after all. Maybe we could have two different hundred bills so that we could keep Benjamin around.
I'm not going see a racially just America in my lifetime. Waiting for an equitable society before honoring our heroes just seems dumb.
posted by rdr at 6:40 AM on May 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
Stealing labor is pretty fundamental to capitalism. The early American economy doesn't get off the ground without slavery. Also, capitalism does not lead to competition.
I cannot see why it's better to have Andrew Jackson's picture on the 20 dollar bill than Harriet Tubman's. The only better idea would be to put John Brown on the hundred. America should go for that. He's a white guy after all. Maybe we could have two different hundred bills so that we could keep Benjamin around.
I'm not going see a racially just America in my lifetime. Waiting for an equitable society before honoring our heroes just seems dumb.
posted by rdr at 6:40 AM on May 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is what happened in Canada three years ago when an 'Asian-looking woman scientist' was proposed for the $100 bill.
The image, alongside a bottle of insulin, was meant to celebrate Canada’s medical innovations.posted by Fizz at 6:47 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
But eight focus groups consulted about the proposed images for the new $5, $10, $20, $50 and $100 banknote series were especially critical of the choice of an Asian for the largest denomination. “Some have concerns that the researcher appears to be Asian,” says a 2009 report commissioned by the bank from The Strategic Counsel, obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act. “Some believe that it presents a stereotype of Asians excelling in technology and/or the sciences. Others feel that an Asian should not be the only ethnicity represented on the banknotes. Other ethnicities should also be shown.” A few even said the yellow-brown colour of the $100 banknote reinforced the perception the woman was Asian, and “racialized” the note.
Let's be real here. The value of displacing Andrew Jackson off the $20 and replacing him with Harriet Tubman is not in making some "statement" about the relationship of capitalism and slavery. The value is in staring down today's racists and saying, "Suck on this!"
posted by jonp72 at 6:48 AM on May 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 6:48 AM on May 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
Yes, she did. Slavery is anti-capitalist, as it steals labor. It's anti-free trade, because it depresses prices in favor of the slavers. It's anti-competition, because it doesn't allow labor to move to a more competitive workplace.
It is as anti-capitalist as one can get. Thanks for the daily dose of common sense...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 6:48 AM on May 14, 2015
So, how about Oprah? She's a successful capitalist and a great American. Or, we could always go with Ayn Rand if it has to be someone who is a fan of the really exploitative sort of capitalism. It's not like no women might fit even by the standards of the article.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:48 AM on May 14, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 6:48 AM on May 14, 2015
The people on American currency helped shape this country. For better or for worse, they symbolize not only America's founding ideals, but those we have subsequently adopted.
Yes; as very school-child knows, America would be a far different place had it not embraced the ideals of Albert Gallatin, Joseph Mansfield, Robert Morris, William Marcy, and Salmon P. Chase.
Or maybe showing up on a U.S bank note really isn't such a big deal.
posted by layceepee at 6:51 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes; as very school-child knows, America would be a far different place had it not embraced the ideals of Albert Gallatin, Joseph Mansfield, Robert Morris, William Marcy, and Salmon P. Chase.
Or maybe showing up on a U.S bank note really isn't such a big deal.
posted by layceepee at 6:51 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I'm with consensus here. Currency is the most common place that Americans see people of historical significance being honored and we are long overdue to have someone who isn't a white male on a bill. Tubman is as solid a candidate as anyone. I kinda sorta see how someone could view it as a sop to women and minorities who aren't given full equality in our society, but to me it seems more like a good next step on the road. Publicly, prominently honoring people like Tubman changes expectations for who society honors and what kind of behaviors are rewarded.
This is maybe a silly correlation, but I'm increasingly frustrated by the dearth of visible female superheroes on movies and TV. So in our house, we reverse the numbers as much as possible, by mainly buying comic books with protagonists who are women. It's about 4 to 1. For every Batman, Superman or Green Lantern, we have around four Wonder Woman, Ms. Marvel, Batgirl, She-Hulk and Captain Marvel. You could see this as a sop to my daughters, who are still living in a world where every headlining movie superhero is a male, but I see it as a small but significant step toward changing expectations. It doesn't undo patriarchy, but it undermines it in our little corner of the world. I would love to see it undermined a bit in our currency as well.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:52 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is maybe a silly correlation, but I'm increasingly frustrated by the dearth of visible female superheroes on movies and TV. So in our house, we reverse the numbers as much as possible, by mainly buying comic books with protagonists who are women. It's about 4 to 1. For every Batman, Superman or Green Lantern, we have around four Wonder Woman, Ms. Marvel, Batgirl, She-Hulk and Captain Marvel. You could see this as a sop to my daughters, who are still living in a world where every headlining movie superhero is a male, but I see it as a small but significant step toward changing expectations. It doesn't undo patriarchy, but it undermines it in our little corner of the world. I would love to see it undermined a bit in our currency as well.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:52 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why the hell would someone want ayn rand on their money?
A. To wipe your ass with.
B. Burn.
C. Satire.
D. All of the above.
posted by Fizz at 6:52 AM on May 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
A. To wipe your ass with.
B. Burn.
C. Satire.
D. All of the above.
posted by Fizz at 6:52 AM on May 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
We are always going to need some form of currency,
Well, this is the other issue - I think the age of paper currency is coming to an end anyway. A lot of people handle money in digital form these days, with cash much less central than it once was, and only becoming less so. So if America gets on the ball in terms of putting respectable people on our money, it'll be at a time when our money is hardly important anyway, and everyone is paying for things with cards or auto-transfers.
Personally I'm not sure when the last $20 bill I saw was, and I don't think it would make a lot of difference in my life if they changed it - so it sort of feels like winning a forgotten game or something.
posted by mdn at 6:53 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, this is the other issue - I think the age of paper currency is coming to an end anyway. A lot of people handle money in digital form these days, with cash much less central than it once was, and only becoming less so. So if America gets on the ball in terms of putting respectable people on our money, it'll be at a time when our money is hardly important anyway, and everyone is paying for things with cards or auto-transfers.
Personally I'm not sure when the last $20 bill I saw was, and I don't think it would make a lot of difference in my life if they changed it - so it sort of feels like winning a forgotten game or something.
posted by mdn at 6:53 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I disagree that this would distract from her legacy.
On one hand, when was the last time a child asked anyone why a certain person is on money? Or for that matter, anyone who wasn't familiar with US history? Many people don't even carry cash anymore to really notice. At some point, we all get used to what our money looks like and I, for one, pay very little attention to who's on the bill of which value I'm trying to suss out to hand to the cashier.
On the other hand, what if people do notice the person on the money? Wouldn't that serve people's curiosity to find out more about them? It doesn't matter if she's anti-capitalist or not, the knowledge seeker wouldn't even find that out until the bill made them want to learn more about her. At some point, an ironic representation that engages the people can still bring notable people to the limelight.
posted by numaner at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
On one hand, when was the last time a child asked anyone why a certain person is on money? Or for that matter, anyone who wasn't familiar with US history? Many people don't even carry cash anymore to really notice. At some point, we all get used to what our money looks like and I, for one, pay very little attention to who's on the bill of which value I'm trying to suss out to hand to the cashier.
On the other hand, what if people do notice the person on the money? Wouldn't that serve people's curiosity to find out more about them? It doesn't matter if she's anti-capitalist or not, the knowledge seeker wouldn't even find that out until the bill made them want to learn more about her. At some point, an ironic representation that engages the people can still bring notable people to the limelight.
posted by numaner at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why the hell would someone want ayn rand on their money?
What about an etching of a slightly uncomfortable looking Ayn Rand on every social security check?
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:59 AM on May 14, 2015 [33 favorites]
What about an etching of a slightly uncomfortable looking Ayn Rand on every social security check?
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:59 AM on May 14, 2015 [33 favorites]
In true capitalist fashion they should auction off the rights to brand the backs of bills to the highest bidder.
posted by zeoslap at 7:04 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zeoslap at 7:04 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
A. To wipe your ass with.
B. Burn.
C. Satire.
D. All of the above.
I'm fairly certain the Department of the Treasury has a PSA about not wiping your ass with flaming money.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:06 AM on May 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
B. Burn.
C. Satire.
D. All of the above.
I'm fairly certain the Department of the Treasury has a PSA about not wiping your ass with flaming money.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:06 AM on May 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
I feel like putting Harriet Tubman on the $20 would do the same thing to her story that has been done to MLK's - turn her into someone to namecheck when you don't want to look racist and eviscerate the complicated and radical nature of her actions. But that is how people and history are assimilated to the nation-building project - overwrite what they actually did and thought with a palatable narrative which supports the nation.
Honestly, all kinds of countries have people and things on their money that the nations themselves have virtually destroyed and subsumed. China has (had? haven't looked lately) a bunch of "national minorites" on their small paper currency, almost all of whom get kicked around by the government and discriminated against and fetishized by Han people. That's what you do with government propaganda - you use it to tell a story that quiets and marginalizes dissent and that strengthens the story that the government likes to tell about itself.
In fact, the real question ought to be "what does the government expect to achieve by putting Tubman on the $20?" rather than "should this happen, what does it mean for women of color?"
We're in a funny moment, I think, because all of the sudden US state violence against Black people is in global focus. We do not, as a nation, look very good - even to centrist organizations like the UN. This seems relatively similar to the late fifties/early sixties, when there was a huge propaganda push so that the US would seem less racist internationally and dissent could be quieted at home. What happened back then certainly benefited some Black people on all levels - they started recruiting some Black men into the CIA, for example; and you wouldn't want to knock the War on Poverty. But it was a process of triage with the goal of stabilizing the state and telling a happy story about US history, not something undertaken by the state out of a state commitment to justice. (No matter if there were individual state employees who had a justice commitment.)
I think we're in a "virtual" civil rights moment, where there is even more emphasis on low-cost symbolic gestures than there was in the sixties. Putting Tubman on the twenty will piss off some racists, but an awful lot of even conscious, intentional racists are perfectly happy to admit that slavery was wrong - slavery was wrong, but systemic and pervasive inequality and violence that operate "of themselves" are perfectly acceptable. And it allows us to say "look, we have recuperated radical anti-slavery activism into the national narrative! the US is a nation where we are steadily getting less and less racist! We have an anti-racist national project and we are moving away from our bad old past!"
posted by Frowner at 7:27 AM on May 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
Honestly, all kinds of countries have people and things on their money that the nations themselves have virtually destroyed and subsumed. China has (had? haven't looked lately) a bunch of "national minorites" on their small paper currency, almost all of whom get kicked around by the government and discriminated against and fetishized by Han people. That's what you do with government propaganda - you use it to tell a story that quiets and marginalizes dissent and that strengthens the story that the government likes to tell about itself.
In fact, the real question ought to be "what does the government expect to achieve by putting Tubman on the $20?" rather than "should this happen, what does it mean for women of color?"
We're in a funny moment, I think, because all of the sudden US state violence against Black people is in global focus. We do not, as a nation, look very good - even to centrist organizations like the UN. This seems relatively similar to the late fifties/early sixties, when there was a huge propaganda push so that the US would seem less racist internationally and dissent could be quieted at home. What happened back then certainly benefited some Black people on all levels - they started recruiting some Black men into the CIA, for example; and you wouldn't want to knock the War on Poverty. But it was a process of triage with the goal of stabilizing the state and telling a happy story about US history, not something undertaken by the state out of a state commitment to justice. (No matter if there were individual state employees who had a justice commitment.)
I think we're in a "virtual" civil rights moment, where there is even more emphasis on low-cost symbolic gestures than there was in the sixties. Putting Tubman on the twenty will piss off some racists, but an awful lot of even conscious, intentional racists are perfectly happy to admit that slavery was wrong - slavery was wrong, but systemic and pervasive inequality and violence that operate "of themselves" are perfectly acceptable. And it allows us to say "look, we have recuperated radical anti-slavery activism into the national narrative! the US is a nation where we are steadily getting less and less racist! We have an anti-racist national project and we are moving away from our bad old past!"
posted by Frowner at 7:27 AM on May 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
Why the hell would someone want ayn rand on their money?
People who enjoy trolling goldbugs.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:29 AM on May 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
People who enjoy trolling goldbugs.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:29 AM on May 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Stealing labor is pretty fundamental to capitalism. The early American economy doesn't get off the ground without slavery.
For that matter, the current American economy seems to especially thrive on outsourcing our labor to overseas manufacturing and call centers, as well as homegrown American prison labor, all in the name of driving down costs. We never quite eliminated slavery, we just made it less visible.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:31 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
For that matter, the current American economy seems to especially thrive on outsourcing our labor to overseas manufacturing and call centers, as well as homegrown American prison labor, all in the name of driving down costs. We never quite eliminated slavery, we just made it less visible.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:31 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why the hell would someone want ayn rand on their money?
We'll have to change the motto.
IN GOD WE TRUST
FUCK YOU, I GOT MINE
posted by zarq at 7:36 AM on May 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
We'll have to change the motto.
FUCK YOU, I GOT MINE
posted by zarq at 7:36 AM on May 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Others feel that an Asian should not be the only ethnicity represented on the banknotes.
Because, as usual, racist morons think white people don't have an ethnicity.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:38 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because, as usual, racist morons think white people don't have an ethnicity.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:38 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've heard this point floating around the last couple of days and I see the validity of the argument, but I think it skips a few steps.
People need to know WHO she is and WHAT she's done before we can start debating whether this is an honor or not.
posted by ghostiger at 7:50 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
People need to know WHO she is and WHAT she's done before we can start debating whether this is an honor or not.
posted by ghostiger at 7:50 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
If we're going to take Jackson off the $20 the appropriate choice would seem to be Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse. I'm not sure that either of them would be exactly thrilled with the honor, either, but they might at least appreciate it as a victory.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:20 AM on May 14, 2015
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:20 AM on May 14, 2015
With that in mind let me suggest the following: Nixon on the 1$;
Sold. "I tipped the pizza guy three Dicks."
posted by nathan_teske at 9:03 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sold. "I tipped the pizza guy three Dicks."
posted by nathan_teske at 9:03 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
What is the rationale behind removing Jackson from the $20?
posted by theorique at 9:04 AM on May 14, 2015
posted by theorique at 9:04 AM on May 14, 2015
As has been said before, "Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough."
Particulars of individual beliefs aside, I'm in favor of most of the listed alternatives for Jackson on the $20 bill, because of all the faces on U.S. currency, his is the most reprehensible, and his presidency set a ton of damaging precedents for the republic. I don't need the intentions to be purest, and I don't think it would hold back progress, so there's no great reason to leave Jackson on the $20, anti-capitalist views or not. Whatever things you could accuse Washington, Lincoln, Hamilton, Grant, and Franklin of, none of them committed atrocities quite as bad as what Jackson perpetrated.
That having been said, I think these designs, (which I think showed up on the blue before?) are what U.S. currency should be since they represent the country better today, rather than the same old dead white guys. One of the better things about the U.S. is that in good times, it's not always stuck hanging onto hundreds of years of tradition. While I can respect tradition in its place, it's often used as a flimsy justification to never change for the better or to keep doing terrible things.
I'm also one of those people who believes that incremental improvement is better than holding out for the best possible deal every time, because, frankly, incremental improvement is really the only way things get better long-term. Even when you get a landmark bill like the civil rights act, it still takes a lot of time for its impact to be fully realized.
posted by Strudel at 9:04 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Particulars of individual beliefs aside, I'm in favor of most of the listed alternatives for Jackson on the $20 bill, because of all the faces on U.S. currency, his is the most reprehensible, and his presidency set a ton of damaging precedents for the republic. I don't need the intentions to be purest, and I don't think it would hold back progress, so there's no great reason to leave Jackson on the $20, anti-capitalist views or not. Whatever things you could accuse Washington, Lincoln, Hamilton, Grant, and Franklin of, none of them committed atrocities quite as bad as what Jackson perpetrated.
That having been said, I think these designs, (which I think showed up on the blue before?) are what U.S. currency should be since they represent the country better today, rather than the same old dead white guys. One of the better things about the U.S. is that in good times, it's not always stuck hanging onto hundreds of years of tradition. While I can respect tradition in its place, it's often used as a flimsy justification to never change for the better or to keep doing terrible things.
I'm also one of those people who believes that incremental improvement is better than holding out for the best possible deal every time, because, frankly, incremental improvement is really the only way things get better long-term. Even when you get a landmark bill like the civil rights act, it still takes a lot of time for its impact to be fully realized.
posted by Strudel at 9:04 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
What is the rationale behind removing Jackson from the $20?
He was a horrible lawless genocidal asshole who shouldn't be celebrated by a country that supposedly has any respect for Native Americans?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:07 AM on May 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
He was a horrible lawless genocidal asshole who shouldn't be celebrated by a country that supposedly has any respect for Native Americans?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:07 AM on May 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
I feel like these explorations of issues are interesting, like post-modern theory is interesting, but immensely impractical when it comes to making any sort of difference in the world. Would it be better if little kids saw that women and people of color are represented on money as a signifier, however simplistic, that these people exist and helped build the nation? To me, yes. Could you make a cogent argument why not to? Sure, always.
In this case, I find some of her arguments compelling, but I don't agree that it is destined to mask real inequalities. Having a formerly enslaved woman of color on currency seems like a great way to help ensure that historical and contemporary issues related to race and gender equality become a bigger part of our collective consciousness.
The author offers no alternative suggestions, so in the end her creativity is limited to the construction of her naysaying argument, which is considerably less powerful and useful than suggesting a way to actually have a positive impact. She does okay at articulating half an idea, but honestly it is a lot easier to poke holes in something than to actually come up with a plan to do something, much less actually organize and motivate people to get involved.
posted by snofoam at 9:07 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
In this case, I find some of her arguments compelling, but I don't agree that it is destined to mask real inequalities. Having a formerly enslaved woman of color on currency seems like a great way to help ensure that historical and contemporary issues related to race and gender equality become a bigger part of our collective consciousness.
The author offers no alternative suggestions, so in the end her creativity is limited to the construction of her naysaying argument, which is considerably less powerful and useful than suggesting a way to actually have a positive impact. She does okay at articulating half an idea, but honestly it is a lot easier to poke holes in something than to actually come up with a plan to do something, much less actually organize and motivate people to get involved.
posted by snofoam at 9:07 AM on May 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
okay, whoever suggested Fred Rogers upthread is s GENIUS; let's put him on the $2 bill so it's an even nicer surprise when your grandma gives you one inside your birthday card.
posted by nonasuch at 9:21 AM on May 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by nonasuch at 9:21 AM on May 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
Jay Smooth had an interesting video on the topic.
posted by YAMWAK at 9:30 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by YAMWAK at 9:30 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Let me just say my son's name is Benjamin, and he once saw a hundred-dollar bill and immediately recognized Ben Franklin there. He wasn't named after Ben Franklin, but I think Mr. Franklin is still a good role model, relatively speaking, and I was glad that he made the association and that it made an impression on him.
I think it's ok to put role models or people whose accomplishments we admire on our currency. For a wider perspective, take a look at all the people who have appeared on US postage stamps. I'm pretty sure I even own, or have owned, some Harriet Tubman stamps.
posted by newdaddy at 9:33 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's ok to put role models or people whose accomplishments we admire on our currency. For a wider perspective, take a look at all the people who have appeared on US postage stamps. I'm pretty sure I even own, or have owned, some Harriet Tubman stamps.
posted by newdaddy at 9:33 AM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
He was a horrible lawless genocidal asshole who shouldn't be celebrated by a country that supposedly has any respect for Native Americans?
Ah, gotcha. Should probably brush up on my 19th century US history.
posted by theorique at 10:37 AM on May 14, 2015
Ah, gotcha. Should probably brush up on my 19th century US history.
posted by theorique at 10:37 AM on May 14, 2015
I would love to see Eleanor Roosevelt on currency. What an amazing person she was. One of our top-5 greatest Americans.
posted by persona au gratin at 10:40 AM on May 14, 2015
posted by persona au gratin at 10:40 AM on May 14, 2015
musicians on our money [...] Willie Nelson
The US Treasury is pleased to announce its new $420 bill.
More commonly referred to as an "ounce".
posted by roquetuen at 10:43 AM on May 14, 2015
The US Treasury is pleased to announce its new $420 bill.
More commonly referred to as an "ounce".
posted by roquetuen at 10:43 AM on May 14, 2015
"I would love to see Eleanor Roosevelt on currency. What an amazing person she was. One of our top-5 greatest Americans."
If I remember correctly, the song, "Mrs. Robinson", was originally titled, "Mrs. Roosevelt".
posted by I-baLL at 10:45 AM on May 14, 2015
If I remember correctly, the song, "Mrs. Robinson", was originally titled, "Mrs. Roosevelt".
posted by I-baLL at 10:45 AM on May 14, 2015
musicians on our money [...] Willie Nelson
The US Treasury is pleased to announce its new $420 bill.
More commonly referred to as an "ounce".
Is "lid" considered outdated now?
posted by TedW at 11:33 AM on May 14, 2015
The US Treasury is pleased to announce its new $420 bill.
More commonly referred to as an "ounce".
Is "lid" considered outdated now?
posted by TedW at 11:33 AM on May 14, 2015
I would love for Tubman to be on the $20 just so that her name gets out there more.
It is a source of major sadness for me that whenever people rush to talk about badass women and strong women, real or fictional, her name seldom seems to come up, even though she accomplished things in real life that far outstrip the feats, real or fictional, of those who enjoy the advantages of superpowers or plot armor or the privileges conferred by high socioeconomic status.
Put it this way: if she could be played an actress who fits the current mostly Western European based standards for beauty that Hollywood and Madison Avenue exhibit a super strong preference for, there would have been a dozen movies made about her by now.
I know this wouldn't be an automatic cure-all. It's not like AJ being on the $20 has increased the occurrences of people talking about the repugnant things he did and said.
But I've come to realize lately that there are no small victories for African-Americans at this moment in American history: every inch of ground we gain is precious. So let's put her on the $20 and move on to the next fight.
posted by lord_wolf at 11:34 AM on May 14, 2015
It is a source of major sadness for me that whenever people rush to talk about badass women and strong women, real or fictional, her name seldom seems to come up, even though she accomplished things in real life that far outstrip the feats, real or fictional, of those who enjoy the advantages of superpowers or plot armor or the privileges conferred by high socioeconomic status.
Put it this way: if she could be played an actress who fits the current mostly Western European based standards for beauty that Hollywood and Madison Avenue exhibit a super strong preference for, there would have been a dozen movies made about her by now.
I know this wouldn't be an automatic cure-all. It's not like AJ being on the $20 has increased the occurrences of people talking about the repugnant things he did and said.
But I've come to realize lately that there are no small victories for African-Americans at this moment in American history: every inch of ground we gain is precious. So let's put her on the $20 and move on to the next fight.
posted by lord_wolf at 11:34 AM on May 14, 2015
Well TedW, urban dictionary says it's about 40-50 years out of date, and I've definitely never heard it before.
This is like when my dad asked me what the kids were calling dope/reefer/grass these days and was disappointed to hear that everyone just plain calls it weed.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:34 AM on May 14, 2015
This is like when my dad asked me what the kids were calling dope/reefer/grass these days and was disappointed to hear that everyone just plain calls it weed.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:34 AM on May 14, 2015
That having been said, I think these designs, (which I think showed up on the blue before?) are what U.S. currency should be since they represent the country better today, rather than the same old dead white guys.
Haven't seen these before and I might be in the minority here, but I really like these designs! One of my favorite aspects of the Euro has been the lack of portraits (instead there's pictures of different European architectural styles throughout the centuries). Kind of cool to see the same thing with a more US-centric theme.
posted by photo guy at 11:59 AM on May 14, 2015
Haven't seen these before and I might be in the minority here, but I really like these designs! One of my favorite aspects of the Euro has been the lack of portraits (instead there's pictures of different European architectural styles throughout the centuries). Kind of cool to see the same thing with a more US-centric theme.
posted by photo guy at 11:59 AM on May 14, 2015
Funny how Tubman freed the slaves, and now, she'll effectively be on the thing that keeps you in slavery.
posted by wcfields at 12:11 PM on May 14, 2015
posted by wcfields at 12:11 PM on May 14, 2015
I am always reluctant to advocate for change on the $20 because I just know it would lead to Reagan on the $10. Guarantee it.
posted by ALongDecember at 1:37 PM on May 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ALongDecember at 1:37 PM on May 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Tubman's (non-)appearance on a $20 bill would have no more, or less, or consistent, meaning than what people give it, or don't.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:30 PM on May 14, 2015
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:30 PM on May 14, 2015
Tubman's (non-)appearance on a $20 bill would have no more, or less, or consistent, meaning than what people give it, or don't.
In conclusion, the $20 bill is a land of contrasts.
posted by lumensimus at 6:48 PM on May 14, 2015
In conclusion, the $20 bill is a land of contrasts.
posted by lumensimus at 6:48 PM on May 14, 2015
The people on American currency helped shape this country.
The people on American currency are all either presidents or "founding fathers", or both. American banknotes are kind of weird in this respect compared to those from the rest of the world. The Bank of England's banknotes have had, among other people, Florence Nightingale, William Shakespeare, Issac Newton, Charles Darwin and Adam Smith. Personally I could get behind putting people of cultural and not just political significance on American currency; Mark Twain, Elizabeth Blackwell, Thomas Edison, Frederick Douglass? The problem with the people on US currency isn't just that they're all dead white guys, it's that they're mostly a specific kind of dead white guy (the only one I'd keep out of the current group is probably Franklin).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:57 PM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
The people on American currency are all either presidents or "founding fathers", or both. American banknotes are kind of weird in this respect compared to those from the rest of the world. The Bank of England's banknotes have had, among other people, Florence Nightingale, William Shakespeare, Issac Newton, Charles Darwin and Adam Smith. Personally I could get behind putting people of cultural and not just political significance on American currency; Mark Twain, Elizabeth Blackwell, Thomas Edison, Frederick Douglass? The problem with the people on US currency isn't just that they're all dead white guys, it's that they're mostly a specific kind of dead white guy (the only one I'd keep out of the current group is probably Franklin).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:57 PM on May 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally I'm not sure when the last $20 bill I saw was, and I don't think it would make a lot of difference in my life if they changed it - so it sort of feels like winning a forgotten game or something.
This is totally staggering to me as a NYC resident - given the number of businesses here that are still cash only (and the corresponding amount of time that I spend at ATMs), I can't imagine twenties disappearing here any time soon.
As for Harriet Tubman, I get the whitewashing argument, but if our only other choice is the continued invisibility of women and minorities in American history and public life then I'll take the possibility of whitewashing. Personally, I've learned new things about Tubman (and the other women on the list) because of the Women on 20s push, so I think it's already been a valuable public education tool. Also, I am super psyched that Tubman won; there were a bunch of good options, but she was definitely my top choice.
posted by naoko at 7:34 AM on May 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is totally staggering to me as a NYC resident - given the number of businesses here that are still cash only (and the corresponding amount of time that I spend at ATMs), I can't imagine twenties disappearing here any time soon.
As for Harriet Tubman, I get the whitewashing argument, but if our only other choice is the continued invisibility of women and minorities in American history and public life then I'll take the possibility of whitewashing. Personally, I've learned new things about Tubman (and the other women on the list) because of the Women on 20s push, so I think it's already been a valuable public education tool. Also, I am super psyched that Tubman won; there were a bunch of good options, but she was definitely my top choice.
posted by naoko at 7:34 AM on May 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
The people on American currency are all either presidents or "founding fathers", or both.
It goes even farther than that. They're mostly people who were specifically important to the history of the Department of the Treasury, which is how Hamilton gets a prime spot and how people of comparatively minor note like Salmon P. Chase ended up on the massive bills they don't print anymore (I think Chase was Secretary of the Treasury when they started printing modern paper money or something). I find that kind of fun in a dumb way, but I don't think that locking our paper money into a visual history of a single governmental department is the way to go and I'd be all for changing the people on our money to a group of people that represent as much of our culture and history as possible.
posted by Copronymus at 8:36 AM on May 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
It goes even farther than that. They're mostly people who were specifically important to the history of the Department of the Treasury, which is how Hamilton gets a prime spot and how people of comparatively minor note like Salmon P. Chase ended up on the massive bills they don't print anymore (I think Chase was Secretary of the Treasury when they started printing modern paper money or something). I find that kind of fun in a dumb way, but I don't think that locking our paper money into a visual history of a single governmental department is the way to go and I'd be all for changing the people on our money to a group of people that represent as much of our culture and history as possible.
posted by Copronymus at 8:36 AM on May 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Tell Me No Lies: "If other countries have handled it better, perhaps we should follow their lead?"
Boy, is *that* not The American Way.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:16 PM on May 16, 2015
Boy, is *that* not The American Way.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:16 PM on May 16, 2015
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posted by Obscure Reference at 5:35 AM on May 14, 2015 [18 favorites]