The Curb-Cut Effect
August 11, 2015 2:15 PM Subscribe
You probably haven't thought about curb cuts recently, but you've almost certainly used one. Curb cuts were originally introduced to benefit mobility impaired people in wheelchairs, but they're used by nearly everyone. This is an example of the curb cut effect: accommodations are often initially developed for disabled people but prove to make everyone's lives a little easier. The philosophy of inclusive design incorporates building accommodation for disabilities into products and architecture as a way to improve the product for everyone who might use it.
We all hope to get old. Those of us who make it are happy to find homes and cities designed for people with reduced mobility, strength, vision, etc.
posted by pracowity at 2:22 PM on August 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 2:22 PM on August 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's almost like people don't believe they'll ever get older themselves, or ever need any kind of accommodations for their own aging. Simple adjustments make the difference between needing to sell the treasured house and moving to a retirement community early versus aging in place gracefully.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:24 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:24 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Actually, a curb cut is just a type of treatment for a curb. Long before curb cuts were used to enhance accessibility, they were used for driveways.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:30 PM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 2:30 PM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a very interesting post, thank you.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:30 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:30 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
As a counterpoint to the "Low-End Trap", I recently read a meta-urban-legend anecdote asserting that the "there's got to be a better way" inventions on TV infomercials are actually a vehicle for getting affordable inclusive products made instead of offering them through expensive medical channels.
posted by a halcyon day at 2:32 PM on August 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by a halcyon day at 2:32 PM on August 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes, but...
The other curb-cut effect is that folks start to feel like they need to use them just because they're there. I see this all the time--crowds of people funneling into limited space instead of just stepping over a curb. It's not laziness, as walking up a tiny ramp is no less effort than taking one half-step up. Sure, some of these people may have hidden disabilities--I first became aware of the problem when I had a back injury and did, indeed, find it much easier to take the incline. But I've seen numerous wheel-chair bound people and people with strollers have to wait until the ramp is cleared of other folks who can't seem to understand that they don't have to use the curb cut to cross the street.
posted by MrMoonPie at 2:35 PM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
The other curb-cut effect is that folks start to feel like they need to use them just because they're there. I see this all the time--crowds of people funneling into limited space instead of just stepping over a curb. It's not laziness, as walking up a tiny ramp is no less effort than taking one half-step up. Sure, some of these people may have hidden disabilities--I first became aware of the problem when I had a back injury and did, indeed, find it much easier to take the incline. But I've seen numerous wheel-chair bound people and people with strollers have to wait until the ramp is cleared of other folks who can't seem to understand that they don't have to use the curb cut to cross the street.
posted by MrMoonPie at 2:35 PM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've lost inches on my bunny-hop, but accessibility seems like a win-win.
posted by resurrexit at 2:37 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by resurrexit at 2:37 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
As a member of a local bike advocacy group, they seem very nice for decreasing crashes for cyclists forced onto the sidewalk by inadequate bikeway facilities.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:40 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:40 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
The other curb-cut effect is that folks start to feel like they need to use them just because they're there. I see this all the time--crowds of people funneling into limited space instead of just stepping over a curb.
I would think it is more like lack of situational awareness. There is a large office complex in Ottawa where one of the sets of doors to the building is a pair of revolving doors side by side. If you sit and watch these doors during busy times, you will see a line-up to enter or exit, but only at the door that is to the right (depending on which side you are approaching from). It is baffling to see people queuing to leave or enter when there is another door like two metres to one side of where they are standing.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:51 PM on August 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would think it is more like lack of situational awareness. There is a large office complex in Ottawa where one of the sets of doors to the building is a pair of revolving doors side by side. If you sit and watch these doors during busy times, you will see a line-up to enter or exit, but only at the door that is to the right (depending on which side you are approaching from). It is baffling to see people queuing to leave or enter when there is another door like two metres to one side of where they are standing.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:51 PM on August 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yes, when I had a severe back injury, I was tempted to use an un-needed cane so that people would be more likely to understand my seemingly bizarre pedestrian behavior (eg. taking the long way around to avoid a four inch step, or standing there and staring at you instead of stepping around you if you are paused in the curb-cut talking to someone).
posted by idiopath at 2:52 PM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 2:52 PM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
accommodations are often initially developed for disabled people but prove to make everyone's lives a little easier.
This is the history of OXO Good Grips also.
posted by jeather at 3:09 PM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is the history of OXO Good Grips also.
posted by jeather at 3:09 PM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
Oh, this in spades. Since becoming quite badly vision-impaired myself, one of my ongoing bugbears is that improving stuff so that the disabled can use them means improving stuff full stop.
That this doesn't seem to get through to those who design and build is a source of constant frustration, even when you point out (and get no argument) that they too will be here at some point.
It all builds into the cognitive disconnect that you can see everywhere. People who build customer services that suck, must themselves use customer services that suck. People who build stuff that doesn't work well for the elderly or infirm must have people in their immediate family who are elderly or infirm. But the connection is never made - or if it is, it comes a long way down the priorities imposed by what people imagine is the point of what they're doing.
I absolutely think that this is a good case for consciousness-raising. campaigning, making a noise and putting on the pressure. It means changing people's minds, but at least in this case there's an unanswerable case for doing so.
posted by Devonian at 3:17 PM on August 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
That this doesn't seem to get through to those who design and build is a source of constant frustration, even when you point out (and get no argument) that they too will be here at some point.
It all builds into the cognitive disconnect that you can see everywhere. People who build customer services that suck, must themselves use customer services that suck. People who build stuff that doesn't work well for the elderly or infirm must have people in their immediate family who are elderly or infirm. But the connection is never made - or if it is, it comes a long way down the priorities imposed by what people imagine is the point of what they're doing.
I absolutely think that this is a good case for consciousness-raising. campaigning, making a noise and putting on the pressure. It means changing people's minds, but at least in this case there's an unanswerable case for doing so.
posted by Devonian at 3:17 PM on August 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
So first we got the curb cuts, which help anyone using wheels, disabled or not. But more recently they've been adding these rumble bumps to the curb cuts. I'm told that the purpose is to provide feedback the the visually impaired, but I wish someone would invent something better, because these rumble bumps destabilize those of us who depend on rollators because of marginal walking ability.
Still, given the choice between no curb cut and a rumble bump curb cut, I'll take the rumble bumps. Just like it's currently trendy to build fake brick crosswalks with stamped concrete which is bumpy too and will probably age badly and get worse, but having a bumpy crosswalk that some cars actually see and stop for, is better than none.
posted by elizilla at 3:20 PM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Still, given the choice between no curb cut and a rumble bump curb cut, I'll take the rumble bumps. Just like it's currently trendy to build fake brick crosswalks with stamped concrete which is bumpy too and will probably age badly and get worse, but having a bumpy crosswalk that some cars actually see and stop for, is better than none.
posted by elizilla at 3:20 PM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
goatdog: There should be a hall of shame website where people can post photos of assholes blocking curb cuts with their cars.
Interestingly, NYC's parking regulations specifically allow parking to block a curb cut as long as it's at a T-intersection with no traffic signals or crosswalk markings. (Source, see section on T-intersections near bottom of the page.) I've always been morbidly curious about who lobbied for that special dispensation.
posted by Pfardentrott at 3:34 PM on August 11, 2015
Interestingly, NYC's parking regulations specifically allow parking to block a curb cut as long as it's at a T-intersection with no traffic signals or crosswalk markings. (Source, see section on T-intersections near bottom of the page.) I've always been morbidly curious about who lobbied for that special dispensation.
posted by Pfardentrott at 3:34 PM on August 11, 2015
The "rumble bumps" are technically TWSIs (tactile warning strip indicators). At least where I'm from. YMMV.
Although "rumble bumps" is way more fun to say.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:41 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Although "rumble bumps" is way more fun to say.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:41 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I used to think about curb cuts constantly since I was laying out the replacement sidewalks for a project in an older part of LA. It's very, very difficult to meet ADA compliance for an area where the 1945 City standard for minimum sidewalk slope is steeper than the current ADA maximum. And curb cuts are also very difficult when the storm drain system, which needs to accommodate infrequent but very heavy rains, means that you have a 9" tall (or greater) curb height. There just isn't enough room to conveniently get the right slope before you hit the front of a building. Well, 4' in front of that building, since you need a flat spot behind the ramp.
It'll look ugly, but it was done. Speaking of ugly, the corner of Milwaukee and Damen and North in Chicago wins the award for most dramatic curb cut.
posted by hwyengr at 3:43 PM on August 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
It'll look ugly, but it was done. Speaking of ugly, the corner of Milwaukee and Damen and North in Chicago wins the award for most dramatic curb cut.
posted by hwyengr at 3:43 PM on August 11, 2015 [18 favorites]
We all hope to get old. Those of us who make it are happy to find homes and cities designed for people with reduced mobility, strength, vision, etc.
"Temporarily able-bodied" is the way I think of myself, thanks to plenty of exposure to accessibility advocates and activists.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:44 PM on August 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
"Temporarily able-bodied" is the way I think of myself, thanks to plenty of exposure to accessibility advocates and activists.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:44 PM on August 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
It's almost like people don't believe they'll ever get older themselves, or ever need any kind of accommodations for their own aging.
I was this person. Not mean spirited or that I thought accommodations shouldn't exist. But I just didn't think of it and thought my bodies always been dependable and didn't worry about those things. Or rather didn't think; as I never articulated it out that far.
Now that I've got some physical limitations, and I feel like The Worlds Biggest Asshole for not recognizing others would have these problems. So I get the perspective at least being oblivious to accessibility. That doesn't make it right. Just easy to miss if your health and young and don't have anyone in your life these issues affect.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 3:44 PM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was this person. Not mean spirited or that I thought accommodations shouldn't exist. But I just didn't think of it and thought my bodies always been dependable and didn't worry about those things. Or rather didn't think; as I never articulated it out that far.
Now that I've got some physical limitations, and I feel like The Worlds Biggest Asshole for not recognizing others would have these problems. So I get the perspective at least being oblivious to accessibility. That doesn't make it right. Just easy to miss if your health and young and don't have anyone in your life these issues affect.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 3:44 PM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
hwyengr: Now that's a curb cut that says "We're not fuckin' around here."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:46 PM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:46 PM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
The "rumble bumps" are technically TWSIs (tactile warning strip indicators). At least where I'm from. YMMV.
Although "rumble bumps" is way more fun to say.
I like "floor braille" (not my coinage).
posted by spaceman_spiff at 4:01 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Although "rumble bumps" is way more fun to say.
I like "floor braille" (not my coinage).
posted by spaceman_spiff at 4:01 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is going to sound like a joke, but there's an article in the current issue of Bitch magazine that makes a similar point about the silicone dildo. It was invented by a guy who was unable to have an erection because of a spinal cord injury, and he initially thought of it as a sex aid for people with disabilities.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:06 PM on August 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:06 PM on August 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
I knew someone here would know what those bumps are called!
posted by elizilla at 4:10 PM on August 11, 2015
posted by elizilla at 4:10 PM on August 11, 2015
You don't even need to get old to appreciate accessibility -- wheelchair accessible means stroller accessible and BOY DO YOU START TO NOTICE who does it well and who does it poorly when you've got a baby to push around on errands.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:11 PM on August 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:11 PM on August 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Just like it's currently trendy to build fake brick crosswalks with stamped concrete which is bumpy too and will probably age badly and get worse, but having a bumpy crosswalk that some cars actually see and stop for, is better than none.
"Zebra striping" is the new hotness in delineating crosswalks. It doesn't create a new barrier (uneven surface) while simultaneously being helpful for people with low vision, and also clarifying for drivers where the crosswalk is.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:16 PM on August 11, 2015
"Zebra striping" is the new hotness in delineating crosswalks. It doesn't create a new barrier (uneven surface) while simultaneously being helpful for people with low vision, and also clarifying for drivers where the crosswalk is.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:16 PM on August 11, 2015
I just want to note that it is very easy, when riding a manual wheelchair, to fish one's keys out and *whoops* scraaaaaaaape along the side of the car that is partially blocking the curb cut. If you're feeling daring and the car is completely blocking the car, you can engage in what I think of as the *flying slash* hook your keys around your fingers, leap off the curb, aiming your keys just so that you will leave a deep gouge in the paint job of the asshole blocking your way.
I want to also note that I am not admitting to ever doing this. I take fucking with a person's ride a very serious matter and only a considerable option if one's frustration about such things needs to be expressed or one will explode.
posted by angrycat at 4:19 PM on August 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
I want to also note that I am not admitting to ever doing this. I take fucking with a person's ride a very serious matter and only a considerable option if one's frustration about such things needs to be expressed or one will explode.
posted by angrycat at 4:19 PM on August 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
I'm told that the purpose is to provide feedback the the visually impaired, but I wish someone would invent something better, because these rumble bumps destabilize those of us who depend on rollators because of marginal walking ability.
They're referred to in California code language as "detectable warnings". In Wisconsin, there's some alternate version that I kind of like better, where they press expanded metal (like what you'd use for plaster lath, it looks like a really heavy chicken wire) into the concrete of the ramp after pouring it and it leaves behind a bunch of bumps in a pattern similar to the warning tiles, but it would be much easier to roll over. The warning tiles are problematic here, because sidewalks have to be cleared for snow and that ends up shaving the bumps off, whether the tiles are concrete or plastic. Unfortunately, there's code language for the specific dimensions of the bumps and their distribution, so unless that changes, you have to hope you have a lenient building inspector or something to do the lath method.
posted by LionIndex at 4:24 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
They're referred to in California code language as "detectable warnings". In Wisconsin, there's some alternate version that I kind of like better, where they press expanded metal (like what you'd use for plaster lath, it looks like a really heavy chicken wire) into the concrete of the ramp after pouring it and it leaves behind a bunch of bumps in a pattern similar to the warning tiles, but it would be much easier to roll over. The warning tiles are problematic here, because sidewalks have to be cleared for snow and that ends up shaving the bumps off, whether the tiles are concrete or plastic. Unfortunately, there's code language for the specific dimensions of the bumps and their distribution, so unless that changes, you have to hope you have a lenient building inspector or something to do the lath method.
posted by LionIndex at 4:24 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I like "floor braille" (not my coinage).
Ah. You could apply this to two different things: TWSIs (which, as the name suggests, warn) or wayfinding tiles.
For example, on centre subway platforms (where trains arrive on both sides) here in Toronto, you might find a tactile strip running down the middle that then leads to stairs, escalators, exits, etc. That floor Braille indicates a path rather than an edge/hazard.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:28 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ah. You could apply this to two different things: TWSIs (which, as the name suggests, warn) or wayfinding tiles.
For example, on centre subway platforms (where trains arrive on both sides) here in Toronto, you might find a tactile strip running down the middle that then leads to stairs, escalators, exits, etc. That floor Braille indicates a path rather than an edge/hazard.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:28 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
One problem that I've noticed with the yellow plastic rumble bumps ("rumble bumps" is just too much fun to say for me to use the proper term) is that they develop anti-friction against wheels when damp. Teflon and silicone lube got nothing on these things. If I'm riding my kick-scooter and there's even the slightest drizzle, I'd almost rather jump the curb than take my chances on the invisible repulsor field the rumble bump patch develops.
posted by Lexica at 4:33 PM on August 11, 2015
posted by Lexica at 4:33 PM on August 11, 2015
The "rumble bumps" here are now cast iron.
They naturally rust, and are supposed to be less easily damaged by snow plowing.
They're also know as Tactile Walking Strip Indicators, but Mr. Conspiracy who is both blind and manages accessibility for a local government, assures me that "warning" is also valid.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:42 PM on August 11, 2015
They naturally rust, and are supposed to be less easily damaged by snow plowing.
They're also know as Tactile Walking Strip Indicators, but Mr. Conspiracy who is both blind and manages accessibility for a local government, assures me that "warning" is also valid.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:42 PM on August 11, 2015
I used to live by that Toronto intersection where they were testing multiple rumble strips (PDF warning!), so it's neat to read the findings of that study. Also neat to find out that the strips they decided on are actually INTENDED to rust and age. I always wondered if that was a mistake but given the reasons for letting them rust, it actually does make a lot of sense.
posted by chrominance at 4:53 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by chrominance at 4:53 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Alameda, CA has a weird series of corners like this one where curb cuts were installed, but it was apparently decided afterward not to create a crosswalk (and to block the curb cuts so people wouldn't try to cross there). If you spin yourself around in that Google Maps view, you'll see that there isn't much to cross to, anyway.
Meanwhile, here's a bus platform* whose length I walked every morning for years, usually in old shoes, giving me an irrational but persistent dislike of "rumble bumps". Of course the real problem is that the platform zig-zags, becoming very narrow where the buses pull in, so you have to walk on and off the caution strip or walk into a post. You can see what the designer had in mind -- pack a lot of waiting buses into a small space and make it easy for them to pull in and out in any order -- but the rider (even the able-bodied rider, never mind those with disabilities) seems to have been forgotten.
I'm not sure if my broader point is that (1) elements of good design sadly do not guarantee a usable result or that (2) suburban California sure does offer a vast panorama of pedestrian hellscapes.
* Got to love that Google has blurred out one of the benches (to protect its identity, I assume).
posted by aws17576 at 5:21 PM on August 11, 2015
Meanwhile, here's a bus platform* whose length I walked every morning for years, usually in old shoes, giving me an irrational but persistent dislike of "rumble bumps". Of course the real problem is that the platform zig-zags, becoming very narrow where the buses pull in, so you have to walk on and off the caution strip or walk into a post. You can see what the designer had in mind -- pack a lot of waiting buses into a small space and make it easy for them to pull in and out in any order -- but the rider (even the able-bodied rider, never mind those with disabilities) seems to have been forgotten.
I'm not sure if my broader point is that (1) elements of good design sadly do not guarantee a usable result or that (2) suburban California sure does offer a vast panorama of pedestrian hellscapes.
* Got to love that Google has blurred out one of the benches (to protect its identity, I assume).
posted by aws17576 at 5:21 PM on August 11, 2015
As a parent pushing a stroller, I quickly memorized which routes featured curb cuts at every corner and which did not.
posted by falconred at 5:22 PM on August 11, 2015
posted by falconred at 5:22 PM on August 11, 2015
My range of motion in my hips is so restricted, as well as my right leg being almost an inch shorter than my left, that while walking forward even the transition of the curb is not possible for me. This is obviously true of stairs, as well, and in both cases I can manage by turning sideways or almost backward such that I can bend my leg up at the knee to step upwards. With stairs, there's almost always a railing I can hold on to, which is crucial. With a curb or anything similar, it's always a bit frightening because of the possibility of falling while doing this awkward maneuver.
So even though I still walk, a curb cut is absolutely crucial for me.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:34 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
So even though I still walk, a curb cut is absolutely crucial for me.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:34 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Although I should mention that walking up a sufficiently steep incline, such as my driveway, is difficult for me because I can't quite lift my feet high enough. This is more subtle and insidious than steps and it's very easy for me to drag my foot unexpectedly while stepping forward and end up falling forward. Therefore, I'm not actually that safe walking up a curb cut, either, if it's too steep.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:38 PM on August 11, 2015
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:38 PM on August 11, 2015
Sometimes you don't notice something until it is absent. Taking an infant in a pram around urban Japan, the absence of kerb cuts was very noticeable to us. Otherwise taken for granted!
posted by wilful at 5:46 PM on August 11, 2015
posted by wilful at 5:46 PM on August 11, 2015
this attitude, the accessible for all attitude, has really changed my attitude in terms of people taking elevators on the el. When the elevator fills up with seemingly ambulatory adults and kids, it's really easy for my inner misanthrope to get cranking. But those people need or want the elevator, and that keeps elevators working for those of us for whom elevators are essential.
So now I love all people. Well, not really, but I can see how those overburdened shoppers, stroller pushers, and just plain tired people can make life better for this wheelchair chick.
posted by angrycat at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
So now I love all people. Well, not really, but I can see how those overburdened shoppers, stroller pushers, and just plain tired people can make life better for this wheelchair chick.
posted by angrycat at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2015 [8 favorites]
Pretty sure we have rules against self-linking so I won't do it here but I recently wrote a blog post about designing for accessibility in Virtual Reality in a way that also accommodates users who we don't think of as traditionally disabled, and after reading this thread I realized that my post hit inclusive design right on the head without calling it out by name. First time I've heard the term, but it makes perfect sense, so thanks for posting this sciatrix!
VR has nothing to do with real-life curbs, mind, but I also just wanted to say that designers of other things elsewhere are thinking about these kinds of accommodations and making them a priority for better user experiences for everyone.
posted by Snacks at 7:14 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
VR has nothing to do with real-life curbs, mind, but I also just wanted to say that designers of other things elsewhere are thinking about these kinds of accommodations and making them a priority for better user experiences for everyone.
posted by Snacks at 7:14 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
(You can self-link in the comments, just not a FPP.)
What's the reason for the rumble bumps rusting? I can't open the link on my current device and I am DYING of curiosity.
Speaking of other accessibility mentioned in the links, I fell in love with closed captioning when I had a baby too ... colic + closed-captioning = can watch TV while an incoherent person angry at his own intestines screams at you for three hours without missing all the dialogue.
Handicapped-accessible elevator buttons are also toddler-accessible, and that was not my favorite. Takes a while to train toddlers not to push ALL the buttons and especially not the bright red alarm one.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
What's the reason for the rumble bumps rusting? I can't open the link on my current device and I am DYING of curiosity.
Speaking of other accessibility mentioned in the links, I fell in love with closed captioning when I had a baby too ... colic + closed-captioning = can watch TV while an incoherent person angry at his own intestines screams at you for three hours without missing all the dialogue.
Handicapped-accessible elevator buttons are also toddler-accessible, and that was not my favorite. Takes a while to train toddlers not to push ALL the buttons and especially not the bright red alarm one.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
In the other unintended benefits department, the cutouts crossover species for usefulness in my case. My goofy little Cookie girl (chihuahua corgi mix) unfortunately inherited the scourge of IVDD which caused her to go paralyzed. (Here she is after surgery) Now that she's walking, she's still not allowed to jump or go up and down curb edges, so I specifically choose walking routes around town where there are curb cuts so we can more easily cross the street. Here she was one more when I was getting her ready to go and here she is happily helping me brew.
So accessibility helps our buddies too!
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:52 PM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
So accessibility helps our buddies too!
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:52 PM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
For others interested in this topic, a great keyword is "universal design."
posted by samthemander at 10:04 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by samthemander at 10:04 PM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would like to know why they leave curbs in when they're doing curb cuts. There will be one at a corner pointed diagonally or two curb cuts at a corner with a little nub of curb in between them. It just seems so awkward! I assume they aren't for wayfinding since there's the rumble bumps for that so I'm not really clear on why they don't just cut the whole corner...?!
That's right, elipsinterobang
posted by aniola at 10:26 PM on August 11, 2015
That's right, elipsinterobang
posted by aniola at 10:26 PM on August 11, 2015
Maybe they leave a bit of curb to discourage drivers from driving over the corner.
posted by gingerest at 11:26 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 11:26 PM on August 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Alameda, CA has a weird series of corners like this one where curb cuts were installed, but it was apparently decided afterward not to create a crosswalk (and to block the curb cuts so people wouldn't try to cross there). If you spin yourself around in that Google Maps view, you'll see that there isn't much to cross to, anyway.
And a big fence all the way across Mosley Ave to completely block access to all pedestrians and drivers. It's almost as if they decided that they didn't want the people from the other side of Willie Stargell Ave to get near their neighborhood after all.
posted by pracowity at 12:35 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
And a big fence all the way across Mosley Ave to completely block access to all pedestrians and drivers. It's almost as if they decided that they didn't want the people from the other side of Willie Stargell Ave to get near their neighborhood after all.
posted by pracowity at 12:35 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
When leaving the pool, I frequently am blocked from the curb cut by a parked car with a driver waiting to pick someone up. I can sit in my wheelchair right in front of their face and many still won't move. Or they'll "be here just a minute" or two or five or ten minutes. It's interesting to see how other pedestrians react with disbelief.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 12:57 AM on August 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 12:57 AM on August 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
that's when you start beating on the car, for reals.
posted by angrycat at 2:07 AM on August 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 2:07 AM on August 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Surely no one would be so inconsiderate as to block the curb cut when a wheelchair user is waiting right there, so I must be hallucinating. I'll just go ahead, directly towards this car which is surely not there. If a real car were there, it would sustain considerable cosmetic damage from a collision with my wheelchair, but I'm sure there is no car there, so here I come!"
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:00 AM on August 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:00 AM on August 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Zebra striping" is the new hotness in delineating crosswalks.
Am I really missing something, or is North America actually several generations behind pretty much all of Europe and South-East Asia (at least - that is the extent of my travels) for how to set up road crossings? 'Zebra striped' is literally every single road crossing and has been since before I was born. It defines a road crossing.
posted by Dysk at 5:43 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Am I really missing something, or is North America actually several generations behind pretty much all of Europe and South-East Asia (at least - that is the extent of my travels) for how to set up road crossings? 'Zebra striped' is literally every single road crossing and has been since before I was born. It defines a road crossing.
posted by Dysk at 5:43 AM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
is North America actually several generations behind pretty much all of Europe and South-East Asia
Very much so.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:58 AM on August 12, 2015
Very much so.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:58 AM on August 12, 2015
is North America actually several generations behind pretty much all of Europe and South-East Asia (at least - that is the extent of my travels) for how to set up road crossings
Outside of a handful of cities, walking anywhere but inside a mall or big box store is for "the poors." So, yes.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:38 AM on August 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Outside of a handful of cities, walking anywhere but inside a mall or big box store is for "the poors." So, yes.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:38 AM on August 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
'Zebra striped' is literally every single road crossing and has been since before I was born. It defines a road crossing.
I suspect it might be regional (or rural/urban, at entropicamericana said), because I saw that link and thought, "Huh, Canada must have been doing something different than the US." I've lived in many places around the US and zebra-crossings look like standard unremarkable road crossings to me. Some of them around here are yellow-striped rather than white, though.
posted by jaguar at 6:52 AM on August 12, 2015
I suspect it might be regional (or rural/urban, at entropicamericana said), because I saw that link and thought, "Huh, Canada must have been doing something different than the US." I've lived in many places around the US and zebra-crossings look like standard unremarkable road crossings to me. Some of them around here are yellow-striped rather than white, though.
posted by jaguar at 6:52 AM on August 12, 2015
I would like to know why they leave curbs in when they're doing curb cuts.
Concrete is so cheap these days that not putting it down is actually more expensive than putting it down, so you have to be careful about how much you leave out, or your budget will go kerblooey. Most municipal budgets are like 90 percent not putting down concrete.
posted by Etrigan at 7:03 AM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Concrete is so cheap these days that not putting it down is actually more expensive than putting it down, so you have to be careful about how much you leave out, or your budget will go kerblooey. Most municipal budgets are like 90 percent not putting down concrete.
posted by Etrigan at 7:03 AM on August 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've lived in many places around the US and zebra-crossings look like standard unremarkable road crossings to me.
Yeah, they're not as common in Canada as they should be as they're bog standard elsewhere and have been forever. I mean, they're on the cover of Abbey Road, fer chrissakes.
"Huh, Canada must have been doing something different than the US."
More like what Canada's NOT doing: comprehensive standards-based, enforced accessibility legislation federally and across all provinces.
Vancouver has this rainbow one, though.
What's the reason for the rumble bumps rusting? I can't open the link on my current device and I am DYING of curiosity.
From the pdf link:
Neenah Foundry plates [the cast iron ones] showed minimal damage. All the plates and truncated domes were completely intact. There were a couple truncated domes with some of the bumps of the textured surface removed. The concrete curb also showed signs of rust staining
that was expected in the first year and is expected to fade over time as the cast iron turns into a naturally dark patina.
These are installed all along my walk to work, and right outside our building. They've been there for close to a year, or a few months in the case of some recently installed. They initially rust, then the rust fades and they become dark. Very Restoration Hardware.
They do look nice, IMHO.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:15 AM on August 12, 2015
Yeah, they're not as common in Canada as they should be as they're bog standard elsewhere and have been forever. I mean, they're on the cover of Abbey Road, fer chrissakes.
"Huh, Canada must have been doing something different than the US."
More like what Canada's NOT doing: comprehensive standards-based, enforced accessibility legislation federally and across all provinces.
Vancouver has this rainbow one, though.
What's the reason for the rumble bumps rusting? I can't open the link on my current device and I am DYING of curiosity.
From the pdf link:
Neenah Foundry plates [the cast iron ones] showed minimal damage. All the plates and truncated domes were completely intact. There were a couple truncated domes with some of the bumps of the textured surface removed. The concrete curb also showed signs of rust staining
that was expected in the first year and is expected to fade over time as the cast iron turns into a naturally dark patina.
These are installed all along my walk to work, and right outside our building. They've been there for close to a year, or a few months in the case of some recently installed. They initially rust, then the rust fades and they become dark. Very Restoration Hardware.
They do look nice, IMHO.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:15 AM on August 12, 2015
Neenah Foundry product page. See? Detectable Warning.
posted by LionIndex at 1:09 PM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by LionIndex at 1:09 PM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
There should be a hall of shame website where people can post photos of assholes blocking [_____] with their cars.
Fixed.
posted by metaldark at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2015
Fixed.
posted by metaldark at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2015
As a skateboarder and future old person with mobility problems because of skateboarding, I love curb cuts and will appreciate them when they're more than just a launch ramp.
posted by grimcity at 1:54 PM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by grimcity at 1:54 PM on August 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
A very great deal of my career involves these things. They cost about 5k (it varies but a good rule of thumb) to build one. They can be very, very challenging to put in. The challenges let the engineers on staff at my city to get some code changes on where sidewalks go (now they are required to be 5' behind the curb with an open grassy/treed strip between the road and the sidewalk) to give enough room to get the ramps in at the maximum slope allowed (1/12 or about 8%). On a subdivision about to start work it took us about 2 weeks of review/revision with the design firm (the private design firm puts the plan together for the subdivision owner and the city reviews it for regulatory compliance and ADA is VERY, VERY large part of that) to get 4 intersections right to compliance. Even after all that we have two sections that are not compliant. When your hill is about 9% grade you CAN'T get the sidewalk slope below 8%. And luckily (not all Federal regs have this kind of provision-most seem not to acknowledge background conditions limitations at all) they allow it if the topography isn't ADA compliant or you have a reasonable, alternative path.
I would like to know why they leave curbs in when they're doing curb cuts. There will be one at a corner pointed diagonally or two curb cuts at a corner with a little nub of curb in between them. It just seems so awkward! I assume they aren't for wayfinding since there's the rumble bumps for that so I'm not really clear on why they don't just cut the whole corner...?!
A few reasons-it prevents cars from cutting the corner and driving over the sidewalk/ramp area. This inevitably cracks the concrete and eventually leads to the concrete coming apart (called spalling). It helps direct storm water away from the ramps so you don't get ponding at the bottom. By isolating each ramp it helps make each ramp easier to get to the slope required. It helps prevent the lot on the corner using it as an 'extra' driveway ramp to get up on the sidewalk and park cars in the front yard.
Of course it also causes some problems-more expense (mostly in forming up the concrete to look right) and it prevents the area being cleaned by the street sweeper.
Neenah Foundry plates [the cast iron ones] showed minimal damage. All the plates and truncated domes were completely intact. There were a couple truncated domes with some of the bumps of the textured surface removed. The concrete curb also showed signs of rust staining
that was expected in the first year and is expected to fade over time as the cast iron turns into a naturally dark patina.
About 10 years ago when Neenah was starting to put these out I got a small sample one (about 6" square) from the engineering firm i worked at the time and I proudly use it as a trivet around my kitchen. Actually one of my prized possessions.
posted by bartonlong at 3:18 PM on August 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
I would like to know why they leave curbs in when they're doing curb cuts. There will be one at a corner pointed diagonally or two curb cuts at a corner with a little nub of curb in between them. It just seems so awkward! I assume they aren't for wayfinding since there's the rumble bumps for that so I'm not really clear on why they don't just cut the whole corner...?!
A few reasons-it prevents cars from cutting the corner and driving over the sidewalk/ramp area. This inevitably cracks the concrete and eventually leads to the concrete coming apart (called spalling). It helps direct storm water away from the ramps so you don't get ponding at the bottom. By isolating each ramp it helps make each ramp easier to get to the slope required. It helps prevent the lot on the corner using it as an 'extra' driveway ramp to get up on the sidewalk and park cars in the front yard.
Of course it also causes some problems-more expense (mostly in forming up the concrete to look right) and it prevents the area being cleaned by the street sweeper.
Neenah Foundry plates [the cast iron ones] showed minimal damage. All the plates and truncated domes were completely intact. There were a couple truncated domes with some of the bumps of the textured surface removed. The concrete curb also showed signs of rust staining
that was expected in the first year and is expected to fade over time as the cast iron turns into a naturally dark patina.
About 10 years ago when Neenah was starting to put these out I got a small sample one (about 6" square) from the engineering firm i worked at the time and I proudly use it as a trivet around my kitchen. Actually one of my prized possessions.
posted by bartonlong at 3:18 PM on August 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
that's when you start beating on the car, for reals.
posted by angrycat at 4:07 AM on August 12 [1 favorite +] [!]
That's when I wish I was equipped with Dalek weapons set to "EXTERMINATE!"
posted by a humble nudibranch at 3:25 PM on August 12, 2015
Most municipal budgets are like 90 percent not putting down concrete.
Anyone want to go into the concrete business? I know several cities we can not put down concrete in. I have an excellent record— to date, I have not installed concrete in London, Chicago, Richmond, Seattle, New York, or Philadelphia. I'm planning to not install concrete in Tokyo, Sydney, and Kuala Lumpur this year, but if that gets delayed, I can not install concrete in Paris and Toronto instead.
posted by a halcyon day at 3:31 PM on August 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Anyone want to go into the concrete business? I know several cities we can not put down concrete in. I have an excellent record— to date, I have not installed concrete in London, Chicago, Richmond, Seattle, New York, or Philadelphia. I'm planning to not install concrete in Tokyo, Sydney, and Kuala Lumpur this year, but if that gets delayed, I can not install concrete in Paris and Toronto instead.
posted by a halcyon day at 3:31 PM on August 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
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