When Black Lives Stop Mattering
July 6, 2016 6:51 PM Subscribe
"I don’t know how to feel that my life matters when there is so much evidence to the contrary."
"Over the past several years, we have borne witness to grainy videos of what “protect and serve” looks like for black lives — Tamir Rice, Walter Scott, Eric Garner, Kajieme Powell, to name a few. I don’t think any of us could have imagined how tiny cameras would allow us to see, time and again, injustices perpetrated, mostly against black people, by police officers. I don’t think we could have imagined that video of police brutality would not translate into justice, and I don’t think we could have imagined how easy it is to see too much, to become numb. And now, here we are.
There is a new name to add to this list — Alton B. Sterling, 37, killed by police officers in Baton Rouge, La. It is a bitter reality that there will always be a new name to that list. Black lives matter, and then in an instant, they don’t."
Sterling is the 560th person killed by police this year in the United States.
"Over the past several years, we have borne witness to grainy videos of what “protect and serve” looks like for black lives — Tamir Rice, Walter Scott, Eric Garner, Kajieme Powell, to name a few. I don’t think any of us could have imagined how tiny cameras would allow us to see, time and again, injustices perpetrated, mostly against black people, by police officers. I don’t think we could have imagined that video of police brutality would not translate into justice, and I don’t think we could have imagined how easy it is to see too much, to become numb. And now, here we are.
There is a new name to add to this list — Alton B. Sterling, 37, killed by police officers in Baton Rouge, La. It is a bitter reality that there will always be a new name to that list. Black lives matter, and then in an instant, they don’t."
Sterling is the 560th person killed by police this year in the United States.
At an emotional press conference on Wednesday morning, Sterling’s 15-year-old son, Cameron, broke down in tears, and Sterling’s partner, Quinyetta McMillan – the boy’s mother – demanded justice for Sterling.The Guardian: Police killing of Alton Sterling to be investigated by Department of Justice.
“He [Cameron] had to watch this as this was put all over the outlets,” she said, with reference to the cellphone video. “As a mother I have now been forced to raise a son who is going to remember what happened to his father.”
I thought since it was the NYTimes I could read the comments. I was wrong.
Otherwise, nails it:
Tuesday night I heard about Mr. Sterling’s death, and I felt so very tired. I had no words because I don’t know what more can be said about this kind of senseless death.
More writing like this, please. More writing about what makes these deaths so damnably, excruciatingly personal.
Because all of us who feel this may need to know the rest of us are out there. That's how movements begin.
posted by Mike Mongo at 7:04 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Otherwise, nails it:
Tuesday night I heard about Mr. Sterling’s death, and I felt so very tired. I had no words because I don’t know what more can be said about this kind of senseless death.
More writing like this, please. More writing about what makes these deaths so damnably, excruciatingly personal.
Because all of us who feel this may need to know the rest of us are out there. That's how movements begin.
posted by Mike Mongo at 7:04 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Samuel Sinyangwe @samswey
It's no coincidence #AltonSterling alleged criminal background was released before the names of officers who killed him or their records.
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Bustle: As more information becomes available in this case, a holistic and fair picture of what happened will hopefully be made available to the public and the victim's family. But as that information is released, it's necessary to think critically of the framing around this case. Sinyangwe's tweet makes clear that everything is not always what it seems, and that in high-stakes cases like this, an analytical eye can reveal important intentions and patterns that need to be addressed.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:07 PM on July 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
It's no coincidence #AltonSterling alleged criminal background was released before the names of officers who killed him or their records.
-
Bustle: As more information becomes available in this case, a holistic and fair picture of what happened will hopefully be made available to the public and the victim's family. But as that information is released, it's necessary to think critically of the framing around this case. Sinyangwe's tweet makes clear that everything is not always what it seems, and that in high-stakes cases like this, an analytical eye can reveal important intentions and patterns that need to be addressed.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:07 PM on July 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
Some quotes, without further comment.
"Mr Sterling was selling CDs in front of a convenience store early Tuesday morning. He was tasered and pinned down by two police officers, who the police say were responding to a call. He was shot, multiple times, in the chest and back. He died, and his death looks and feels as though he were executed."
"The body cameras the police officers were wearing "dangled" according to the police department's spokesman,... so we don't know how much of the events leading to Mr Sterling's death were captured."
"The Baton Rouge police department also has the convenience store surveillance video, which it is not, as of yet, releasing."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
"Mr Sterling was selling CDs in front of a convenience store early Tuesday morning. He was tasered and pinned down by two police officers, who the police say were responding to a call. He was shot, multiple times, in the chest and back. He died, and his death looks and feels as though he were executed."
"The body cameras the police officers were wearing "dangled" according to the police department's spokesman,... so we don't know how much of the events leading to Mr Sterling's death were captured."
"The Baton Rouge police department also has the convenience store surveillance video, which it is not, as of yet, releasing."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
Shaun King: "Whatever you do, don't try to make sense of what those police did to Alton Sterling."
posted by prefpara at 7:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 7:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you feel helpless, but want to play a small part in easing the burden of #AltonSterling's family, consider donating to this scholarship fund for his 15-year-old son (and his other kids).
posted by stevil at 7:13 PM on July 6, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by stevil at 7:13 PM on July 6, 2016 [30 favorites]
> Samuel Sinyangwe @samswey It's no coincidence #AltonSterling alleged criminal background was released before the names of officers who killed him or their records.
A friend on facebook (a black woman who lives in New Orleans) posted this, which was posted by a friend of hers:
A friend on facebook (a black woman who lives in New Orleans) posted this, which was posted by a friend of hers:
Gon say this too and get it out the way: Alton Sterling was convicted 16 years ago around age 21 for 'carnal knowledge of a juvenile.' He was a registered sex offender. The details of that case have not been made apparent, tho I would venture that he clearly was messing with an underage girl and too old to be doing so. But this crime, for which he was arrested and convicted, is only relevant in so far as the lives of Black women and girls absolutely matter. Carnal knowledge of a juvenile is not a capital offense, nor should it be. And it certainly is no justification for murder 16 damn years after the fact. And in a world where 20-something white men can run up on, rape and brutalize unconscious women and walk away with 3mos of jail time, what we won't do is dare entertain the notion that Alton Sterling's history of sexual violence warranted a fucking execution. That is absurd. And brothers, take note of the labor that sisters will now be required to do to ride hard in the streets for this brother. We will be required to put aside the fact that he didn't care for a Black girl's life in ways he should have. But Alton Sterling's life mattered and on that point there can be no equivocation.posted by rtha at 7:14 PM on July 6, 2016 [264 favorites]
At an emotional press conference on Wednesday morning, Sterling’s 15-year-old son, Cameron, broke down in tears, and Sterling’s partner, Quinyetta McMillan – the boy’s mother – demanded justice for Sterling.
I cried every time I saw that today. I can't watch the video of the shooting. Just watching that kid break down was too much.
posted by zutalors! at 7:14 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
I cried every time I saw that today. I can't watch the video of the shooting. Just watching that kid break down was too much.
posted by zutalors! at 7:14 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
I remember you Alton.
I remember you Sandra.
I remember you Tamir.
I remember you Eric.
I remember you Mike.
I remember you Akai.
I remember you Aiyana.
I remember you John.
It's been almost two years and I can see the complacent white consciousness changing ever so slowly (someone who I remember coldly scoffing at the Ferguson protests posted today about the injustice of these murders) but it's not moving nearly fast enough. And every iota of a millimeter is due to people of color putting their bodies on the line over and over again at protests and risking their mental health to advocate for the basic and yet apparently still deniable fact that their lives matter.
posted by sallybrown at 7:20 PM on July 6, 2016 [46 favorites]
I remember you Sandra.
I remember you Tamir.
I remember you Eric.
I remember you Mike.
I remember you Akai.
I remember you Aiyana.
I remember you John.
It's been almost two years and I can see the complacent white consciousness changing ever so slowly (someone who I remember coldly scoffing at the Ferguson protests posted today about the injustice of these murders) but it's not moving nearly fast enough. And every iota of a millimeter is due to people of color putting their bodies on the line over and over again at protests and risking their mental health to advocate for the basic and yet apparently still deniable fact that their lives matter.
posted by sallybrown at 7:20 PM on July 6, 2016 [46 favorites]
As more information becomes available in this case, a holistic and fair picture of what happened will hopefully be made available to the public and the victim's family
There is cell phone video, from multiple sources, and multiple eyewitnesses that all say that he was immobilised at the time he was killed, and that he made no attempt for the gun.
There literally are no possible additional facts that can make this killing a justified use of force.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:22 PM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
There is cell phone video, from multiple sources, and multiple eyewitnesses that all say that he was immobilised at the time he was killed, and that he made no attempt for the gun.
There literally are no possible additional facts that can make this killing a justified use of force.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:22 PM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
Mr. McKneely said the officers were not questioned last night because “we give officers normally a day or so to go home and think about it.”
To agree upon their story, basically.
"The Baton Rouge police department also has the convenience store surveillance video, which it is not, as of yet, releasing."
The camera probably spontaneously falls off the wall.
He was a registered sex offender.
At what point in their investigations did the officers become aware of this?
posted by Artw at 7:22 PM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
To agree upon their story, basically.
"The Baton Rouge police department also has the convenience store surveillance video, which it is not, as of yet, releasing."
The camera probably spontaneously falls off the wall.
He was a registered sex offender.
At what point in their investigations did the officers become aware of this?
posted by Artw at 7:22 PM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
Louisiana just enacted a "Blue Lives Matter" law
posted by Artw at 7:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
The camera probably spontaneously falls off the wall.
Via The Daily Beast:
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:25 PM on July 6, 2016 [111 favorites]
Via The Daily Beast:
Police asked Muflahi for the surveillance footage from his store but he refused to turn it over without a warrant, he said.Nope, not a cover up at all. Nosiree.
“I told them i would like to be in the store when [they took it],” Muflahi said. “They told me they didn’t want me to see the footage.”
“I never received a warrant,” but the video was taken anyway, Muflahi said.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:25 PM on July 6, 2016 [111 favorites]
FYI the gofundme scholarship fund that stevil linked to is indeed legit
posted by a strong female character at 7:30 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by a strong female character at 7:30 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Just" as in about a month a go, I should add. But it's a clear indication of where priorities lay: in the direction of bullshit.
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Baton Rouge parade openly mocked the deaths of black men months before Alton Sterling shooting
A float declared “Pink Lives Matter” and showed a flamingo getting beaten with police batons with a sign around its neck saying “I can’t breathe.” The flamingo is the mascot of the Spanish Town Parade, which is known for its inappropriate humor. The flamingo was an obvious reference to Eric Garner, who told police that he couldn’t breathe just before he was killed in that encounter.
Another float joked about “Freddie Gray Goose” — Freddie Gray was another black man killed by police, which sparked large riots in Baltimore — and some attendees waved Confederate flags, the Baton Rouge Advocate reported.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [19 favorites]
A float declared “Pink Lives Matter” and showed a flamingo getting beaten with police batons with a sign around its neck saying “I can’t breathe.” The flamingo is the mascot of the Spanish Town Parade, which is known for its inappropriate humor. The flamingo was an obvious reference to Eric Garner, who told police that he couldn’t breathe just before he was killed in that encounter.
Another float joked about “Freddie Gray Goose” — Freddie Gray was another black man killed by police, which sparked large riots in Baltimore — and some attendees waved Confederate flags, the Baton Rouge Advocate reported.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [19 favorites]
Washington Post: The video of the shooting was captured by chance by members of Stop the Killing Inc, a local anti-violence activist group and documentary team that listens to police scanners and shows up at the scene of potentially violent confrontations to take video. A second video that emerged later in Wednesday appeared to show one of the police officers removing a gun from Sterling’s pocket after he was shot.
Stop the Killing Inc. was founded by Arthur “Silky Slim” Reed, a former gang leader turned anti-violence activist, who said that two members of his organization drove to the scene of Sterling’s shooting after hearing police scanner traffic about a potentially violent disturbance. Reed declined to say which member of his team shot the video, or confirm if he himself was present for its recording, citing safety concerns.
Reed said his group didn’t immediately release the video because it wanted to see how transparent police would be about the shooting.
“You want to see what the police are going to say and how transparent they’re going to be,” said Reed, 43, who has spent most of his life in Baton Rouge. “You know that you’re holding a chess piece, the most important part is to move that piece at the right time.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [118 favorites]
Stop the Killing Inc. was founded by Arthur “Silky Slim” Reed, a former gang leader turned anti-violence activist, who said that two members of his organization drove to the scene of Sterling’s shooting after hearing police scanner traffic about a potentially violent disturbance. Reed declined to say which member of his team shot the video, or confirm if he himself was present for its recording, citing safety concerns.
Reed said his group didn’t immediately release the video because it wanted to see how transparent police would be about the shooting.
“You want to see what the police are going to say and how transparent they’re going to be,” said Reed, 43, who has spent most of his life in Baton Rouge. “You know that you’re holding a chess piece, the most important part is to move that piece at the right time.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [118 favorites]
As someone who has watched the video - this is by far the most graphic and disturbing of any I've seen in a long time, maybe ever. I strongly believe its important that these videos exist but please consider your mental health, please. For me the worst parts are (description to follow could be triggering): He is facing up towards the police - they are looking him in the face as they murder him at point blank range. His injuries are shown in graphic detail and he doesn't die immediately.
posted by sallybrown at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
There was such an outpouring of grief on Twitter last night. I watched the #AltonSterling tag and it was exclusively Black faces for quite awhile. Then the racists started to trickle in. One thing non-black people can do is step in when a racist gets up in a Black person's mentions. Take out the @-name of the Black person out of the thread and go in on that racist. Wave that red flag. Take the emotional labor off the Black person and onto yourself. (Same concept applies to other social media, obvs.)
I watched both cellphone videos - yesterday I didn't know what I was getting into. I wasn't prepared for how blatant the execution would be. Today's was less shocking even though it's more graphic. I feel a duty to witness this.
A white friend posted on Facebook today asking white people to intervene when police accost a Black person. Put our bodies on the line. I haven't entirely processed that yet, but I am very, very watchful when I see a Black person being pulled over. I've pulled over behind or in front of them just to watch and let the police know they're being watched. I've asked the guy in handcuffs if he's okay, if he wants me to call anyone. Police need to know that we're not on their side.
I will never call the cops on a Black person unless someone's in danger and I'd risk my life by interfering. Car thefts are endemic around here, but I'm not going to take the risk the thief will be executed. They're almost always teenagers, and I could never live with myself if something happened. My insurance will cover the car.
posted by AFABulous at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [112 favorites]
I watched both cellphone videos - yesterday I didn't know what I was getting into. I wasn't prepared for how blatant the execution would be. Today's was less shocking even though it's more graphic. I feel a duty to witness this.
A white friend posted on Facebook today asking white people to intervene when police accost a Black person. Put our bodies on the line. I haven't entirely processed that yet, but I am very, very watchful when I see a Black person being pulled over. I've pulled over behind or in front of them just to watch and let the police know they're being watched. I've asked the guy in handcuffs if he's okay, if he wants me to call anyone. Police need to know that we're not on their side.
I will never call the cops on a Black person unless someone's in danger and I'd risk my life by interfering. Car thefts are endemic around here, but I'm not going to take the risk the thief will be executed. They're almost always teenagers, and I could never live with myself if something happened. My insurance will cover the car.
posted by AFABulous at 7:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [112 favorites]
I realized we do have gun control in America. It is only for people of color, it's enforced by the police, and the enforcement takes the form of an on-the-spot execution, even if the gun is not visible, even if it is not a gun, even if it is held by a child.
People of color do not have the same rights that white people have in this country. Even the Constitutional rights.
posted by maxsparber at 7:58 PM on July 6, 2016 [97 favorites]
People of color do not have the same rights that white people have in this country. Even the Constitutional rights.
posted by maxsparber at 7:58 PM on July 6, 2016 [97 favorites]
Samuel Sinyangwe @samswey is good to follow for this and other black police-related killings. Last night he tweeted that:
--Every person Baton Rouge police have killed in the past 3 years has been black and male.
--Black men are 25% of Baton Rouge population but 100% of those killed by police.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:01 PM on July 6, 2016 [31 favorites]
--Every person Baton Rouge police have killed in the past 3 years has been black and male.
--Black men are 25% of Baton Rouge population but 100% of those killed by police.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:01 PM on July 6, 2016 [31 favorites]
It's been almost two years and I can see the complacent white consciousness changing ever so slowly (someone who I remember coldly scoffing at the Ferguson protests posted today about the injustice of these murders) but it's not moving nearly fast enough.
I'm sorry to say, in all the media and cultural frenzy of the aftermath of Michael Brown's death, I was conflicted. I indulged in some doubt over whether or not Brown had posed a danger to the officers on the scene. Good old equivocation and just-world rationalization. It was when I read the officer's account (in a thread on this site, by the way, and I don't know if I would have encountered it otherwise) that it finally started to hit home for me. Reading how the officer described Michael Brown -- as an it, not a he -- as looking "like a demon" -- felt a little bit like shining a faint flashlight down a well, far enough to understand that it's a lot deeper and darker than you had ever thought.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 8:04 PM on July 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
I'm sorry to say, in all the media and cultural frenzy of the aftermath of Michael Brown's death, I was conflicted. I indulged in some doubt over whether or not Brown had posed a danger to the officers on the scene. Good old equivocation and just-world rationalization. It was when I read the officer's account (in a thread on this site, by the way, and I don't know if I would have encountered it otherwise) that it finally started to hit home for me. Reading how the officer described Michael Brown -- as an it, not a he -- as looking "like a demon" -- felt a little bit like shining a faint flashlight down a well, far enough to understand that it's a lot deeper and darker than you had ever thought.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 8:04 PM on July 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
I realized we do have gun control in America. It is only for people of color, it's enforced by the police, and the enforcement takes the form of an on-the-spot execution, even if the gun is not visible, even if it is not a gun, even if it is held by a child.
So no big surprise then that the Democrats wanted to tie gun control to the No Fly List, another government program that focuses on brown people and no evidence above all else.
Seriously, when I heard that THAT is what the big Democrat sit-in was about, to tie gun control to the most OBTUSE, OPAQUE, and fucking BACKWARDS list that should have been done away with the fucking SECOND Obama was in office, I thought I was going to lose my shit.
This whole country is fucked and I don't know what to do about it anymore except cry.
I mean, Christ, I live in one of the most hippie ass liberal cities in the country and still I'm overrun by fucktards who think that nothing is wrong. We even had two young black men shot by a local cop over stealing beer for fucks sake! And everyone was like "Oh, well, they shouldn't have committed a crime." Yeah, because steeling beer is totally worth getting fucking shot.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:07 PM on July 6, 2016 [31 favorites]
So no big surprise then that the Democrats wanted to tie gun control to the No Fly List, another government program that focuses on brown people and no evidence above all else.
Seriously, when I heard that THAT is what the big Democrat sit-in was about, to tie gun control to the most OBTUSE, OPAQUE, and fucking BACKWARDS list that should have been done away with the fucking SECOND Obama was in office, I thought I was going to lose my shit.
This whole country is fucked and I don't know what to do about it anymore except cry.
I mean, Christ, I live in one of the most hippie ass liberal cities in the country and still I'm overrun by fucktards who think that nothing is wrong. We even had two young black men shot by a local cop over stealing beer for fucks sake! And everyone was like "Oh, well, they shouldn't have committed a crime." Yeah, because steeling beer is totally worth getting fucking shot.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:07 PM on July 6, 2016 [31 favorites]
prefpara's comment from Mike Brown keeps on being sadly, disgustingly relevant
To put it more bluntly, rights aren't something you earn by being perfect.
I'm reposting it here:
Or, to put it more bluntly, rights aren't something you earn by being perfect. Michael Brown didn't lose his right to life when he (if he) said something rude to a cop. The citizens of Ferguson didn't lose their right to justice when members of a crowd engaged in looting. Those who want to talk about looting are contributing to a narrative where you make one wrong move and you are no longer entitled or protected. Only, it never seems to work that way when it comes to the rights that those in power claim for themselves. Do you lose your gun license by doing one thing wrong, for example? Not if you're white.
Stop talking about the wrong things black people have done. There is only one question. Are black Americans full citizens with all the same rights and liberties as white Americans? And the answer is, based on what I see in the world around me, no. So talk about that. Talk about whether the Constitution has moral authority, or the government legitimacy, as long as its paper promises are dust and ash in the mouths of our neighbors of color.
posted by lalochezia at 8:13 PM on July 6, 2016 [105 favorites]
To put it more bluntly, rights aren't something you earn by being perfect.
I'm reposting it here:
Or, to put it more bluntly, rights aren't something you earn by being perfect. Michael Brown didn't lose his right to life when he (if he) said something rude to a cop. The citizens of Ferguson didn't lose their right to justice when members of a crowd engaged in looting. Those who want to talk about looting are contributing to a narrative where you make one wrong move and you are no longer entitled or protected. Only, it never seems to work that way when it comes to the rights that those in power claim for themselves. Do you lose your gun license by doing one thing wrong, for example? Not if you're white.
Stop talking about the wrong things black people have done. There is only one question. Are black Americans full citizens with all the same rights and liberties as white Americans? And the answer is, based on what I see in the world around me, no. So talk about that. Talk about whether the Constitution has moral authority, or the government legitimacy, as long as its paper promises are dust and ash in the mouths of our neighbors of color.
posted by lalochezia at 8:13 PM on July 6, 2016 [105 favorites]
Louisiana imprisons more people than anywhere else in the world. Nearly five times Iran's, 13 times China's and 20 times Germany's. The entire system is corrupt and so it's no wonder the officers feel they can get away with murder.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
There is cell phone video, from multiple sources, and multiple eyewitnesses that all say that he was immobilised at the time he was killed, and that he made no attempt for the gun.
There literally are no possible additional facts that can make this killing a justified use of force.
And before the usual hue and cry is raised, note that Louisiana has both open and concealed carry, although (as we're seeing over and over again), in the real world open carry--remember John Crawford III and Tamir Rice--and the 2nd Amendment are increasingly de facto applicable only to white men. As Charlie Pierce points out:
There literally are no possible additional facts that can make this killing a justified use of force.
And before the usual hue and cry is raised, note that Louisiana has both open and concealed carry, although (as we're seeing over and over again), in the real world open carry--remember John Crawford III and Tamir Rice--and the 2nd Amendment are increasingly de facto applicable only to white men. As Charlie Pierce points out:
By the way, for those who will make a point of Sterling's carrying a gun, which has been reported in a number of places, remember that Louisiana is an open-carry state. If he were armed, then, right up until the moment somebody shot him to death, Alton Sterling was exercising his Second Amendment rights in exactly the way the NRA and its noisy apologists have suggested we all should.posted by zombieflanders at 8:27 PM on July 6, 2016 [60 favorites]
Except that we're not all black, the true original American Exceptionalism has come home again.
If they thought or knew that he had a gun from the beginning, why would they physically approach him? Maybe I watch too many movies but it seems like the SOP is to try to get the person to put the gun down and get it away from them before arresting them.
If they didn't know or think he had a gun, what were they violently arresting him for?
posted by AFABulous at 8:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
If they didn't know or think he had a gun, what were they violently arresting him for?
posted by AFABulous at 8:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Dangling" body cameras? I would love to see statistics about how many times body cams have been disabled in situations where they would be awfully useful in cases where police misconduct is suspected. My public defender partner, who works in just one small jurisdiction in this country, has some pretty damning anecdotal evidence about this.
posted by kozad at 8:38 PM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by kozad at 8:38 PM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
The legality of open/concealed carry is probably a red herring since he was a felon. But if someone has a gun, and you have reason to believe they may be adversarial towards you, it makes NO sense to approach and tackle them. Unless you are not afraid of the gun! In which case, why'd you shoot him if you were not afraid? This is like an onion, the more layers you peel away, the less sense it makes.
posted by AFABulous at 8:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 8:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
If police officers can't properly use cameras, we should probably rethink if they can be trusted to properly use guns.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [164 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 8:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [164 favorites]
It's at the cop's discretion to decide whether the body camera will "protect" them more while on or dangling.
posted by mantecol at 8:45 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by mantecol at 8:45 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
sallybrown thank you for that description. I was trying to decide if I wanted to/should watch the video and you've decided me that I can't. And it feels really weird to think "no, I can't handle seeing that" when other people have to handle the possibility of it happening to them every day.
It's just so fucked.
posted by threeturtles at 8:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
It's just so fucked.
posted by threeturtles at 8:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
The video of his teenaged son breaking down and screaming "I want my daddy" was almost as hard to watch as the murder.
posted by AFABulous at 8:49 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 8:49 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Nah, watch that shit. Watch an arm of the state, supported by tax dollars, murder your fellow American. When the officers that did it get off with no jail time, watch it again and realize the country you live in.
posted by cashman at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [69 favorites]
posted by cashman at 8:50 PM on July 6, 2016 [69 favorites]
You can see how the defense is going to go already (assuming there will be a trial, which is extremely rare in these cases in the first place). The cop who was manhandling Sterling on the ground will say he felt the gun in Sterling's waistband/pocket (likely true) and yelled "gun" to alert the other officer that a gun was present. The cop with the gun on Sterling will say that he was focused on covering Sterling and so when the other cop yelled "gun" he feared that meant Sterling had grabbed the gun or was reaching for the gun and so fired in fear of his or the other officer's life. The defense would argue that both of these actions are reasonable in isolation...
The fact that the result is a gross injustice overall won't be something they mention.
And if the past is any indication this defense will work because the jury will either be racists or fooled into ignoring the injustice of the whole thing or both. And I say that as someone who I think the past has shown is much harder on prosecutions by the government than many people here.
The recent past shows that you can have video showing exactly what happened and people won't convict. How do you fix that? Stop being racist assholes is the long term solution but what do you do in the decades it will take to do that?
Until juries are willing to hold police accountable for unjust outcomes I don't know how it gets better.
posted by Justinian at 8:51 PM on July 6, 2016 [21 favorites]
The fact that the result is a gross injustice overall won't be something they mention.
And if the past is any indication this defense will work because the jury will either be racists or fooled into ignoring the injustice of the whole thing or both. And I say that as someone who I think the past has shown is much harder on prosecutions by the government than many people here.
The recent past shows that you can have video showing exactly what happened and people won't convict. How do you fix that? Stop being racist assholes is the long term solution but what do you do in the decades it will take to do that?
Until juries are willing to hold police accountable for unjust outcomes I don't know how it gets better.
posted by Justinian at 8:51 PM on July 6, 2016 [21 favorites]
And now there's another shooting of a Black man, in Falcon Heights, MN. It's breaking on Twitter now and the hashtag is #FalconHeightsShooting, be aware that you will quickly run into a VERY graphic and disturbing video. His girlfriend is filming; she's in the driver's seat of a stopped car and her boyfriend is in the passenger seat. There's a baby or young child in the back seat. She says they were pulled over for a broken taillight and her boyfriend went to get his ID and the police shot him in the arm. I had to stop watching, but Twitter says he's in the hospital.
posted by AFABulous at 9:00 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 9:00 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
The most amazing thing is that they shoot him and then just leave him bleeding and slumped over in the car, still alive, instead of trying to render aid in any way.
posted by AFABulous at 9:03 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 9:03 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
I take back every horrible thing I ever said about Facebook Live videos. I so hope the man in the video survives. I don't have 1% of the bravery of Lavish Reynolds - to pull out a cell phone and film as your boyfriend bleeds out in front of your child and a cop pulls his gun back out and onto you!
posted by sallybrown at 9:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 9:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
There literally are no possible additional facts that can make this killing a justified use of force.
Mike Brown, Tamir Rice; I thought that for those too. For Trayvon too.
And yet here we are. Justice does not see or care what the police do. Or in Martin's case, people pretending to be police.
All the way up to the Supreme Court, the justice system bends over backwards to let the police do as they please, no matter how many innocents get hurt or killed.
I don't understand this sickness and I don't know how to root it out. I don't know why the courts can't look at this and see the horror of killing after killing after killing. I don't understand why they are so reluctant to stop it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:09 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
Mike Brown, Tamir Rice; I thought that for those too. For Trayvon too.
And yet here we are. Justice does not see or care what the police do. Or in Martin's case, people pretending to be police.
All the way up to the Supreme Court, the justice system bends over backwards to let the police do as they please, no matter how many innocents get hurt or killed.
I don't understand this sickness and I don't know how to root it out. I don't know why the courts can't look at this and see the horror of killing after killing after killing. I don't understand why they are so reluctant to stop it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:09 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
.
The most amazing thing is that they shoot him and then just leave him bleeding and slumped over in the car, still alive, instead of trying to render aid in any way.
This happened to Tamir Rice, too; in fact his sister was handcuffed and put in the back of a police car when she tried to render aid. She was fourteen.
It's entirely possible some of the people who are murdered might have survived if they received any kind of first aid - but they never do. Instead, the police begin collecting evidence to destroy and figuring out how they are going to make the murder of an unarmed/unaware/pinned down person that person's fault.
It's sickening.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [49 favorites]
The most amazing thing is that they shoot him and then just leave him bleeding and slumped over in the car, still alive, instead of trying to render aid in any way.
This happened to Tamir Rice, too; in fact his sister was handcuffed and put in the back of a police car when she tried to render aid. She was fourteen.
It's entirely possible some of the people who are murdered might have survived if they received any kind of first aid - but they never do. Instead, the police begin collecting evidence to destroy and figuring out how they are going to make the murder of an unarmed/unaware/pinned down person that person's fault.
It's sickening.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [49 favorites]
The most amazing thing is that they shoot him and then just leave him bleeding and slumped over in the car, still alive, instead of trying to render aid in any way.
because they're acting like the occupying army in a hostile city with a population they view as subhuman. Not as the policing force of a community they are apart of. That is entirely the correct thing to do in thier mind given that worldview.
posted by The Whelk at 9:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [88 favorites]
because they're acting like the occupying army in a hostile city with a population they view as subhuman. Not as the policing force of a community they are apart of. That is entirely the correct thing to do in thier mind given that worldview.
posted by The Whelk at 9:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [88 favorites]
I feel overwhelmed and scared. This is monstrous.
posted by prefpara at 9:16 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 9:16 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
I guess it's amazing that I'm even amazed by any of this anymore.
posted by AFABulous at 9:21 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 9:21 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
The entire time I was just thinking yo cops, he's still alive! Maybe not for long but uhhh... hey shitheads, HE IS STILL ALIVE. Not only do they not render aid to that still-living person, but they take the opportunity to dig through his pockets.
posted by SharkParty at 9:23 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by SharkParty at 9:23 PM on July 6, 2016
Jesus. That video. I could only watch pieces.
At the end her own kid is telling her "it's ok mommy, I'm here with you"
I just fucking cant.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 9:23 PM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
At the end her own kid is telling her "it's ok mommy, I'm here with you"
I just fucking cant.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 9:23 PM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
I honestly don't even understand how our society can begin to walk this sickness back as long as the police as a bloc are unwilling to join in aggressively righting the ship. The open insurrection of the NYPD against Mayor de Blasio in response to some minor perceived slights made it clear that this sector considers itself answerable to no-one politically. When the police are seen openly to murder with no accountability, at what point do we consider this a de facto junta?
posted by threeants at 9:26 PM on July 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by threeants at 9:26 PM on July 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
"Justice".
It hollows out our society; we can't even have a society, because how can you live in community when some people are subject to lynch law? When some people are state-protected murderers? When some people live protected and never notice? Everything that looks so nice on the surface is rotted underneath, because it's all propped up by this social fact that the police can murder Black people with impunity, and can do violence against anyone else they designate as outside of society.
posted by Frowner at 9:27 PM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
It hollows out our society; we can't even have a society, because how can you live in community when some people are subject to lynch law? When some people are state-protected murderers? When some people live protected and never notice? Everything that looks so nice on the surface is rotted underneath, because it's all propped up by this social fact that the police can murder Black people with impunity, and can do violence against anyone else they designate as outside of society.
posted by Frowner at 9:27 PM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
This series of tweets by Anil Dash is so spot-on.
#AltonSterling & #EricGarner were killed by cops for bending the law to far lesser degree than execs at AirBNB & Uber. Billions vs bullets.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:32 PM on July 6, 2016 [42 favorites]
#AltonSterling & #EricGarner were killed by cops for bending the law to far lesser degree than execs at AirBNB & Uber. Billions vs bullets.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:32 PM on July 6, 2016 [42 favorites]
Fuck.
posted by Artw at 9:38 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:38 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
The amount of time the cops waste staring and standing around letting Castile bleed out when they could be helping him -- he's clearly not a threat -- is unconscionable.
.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:43 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:43 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
A couple of hours ago everything was fine and now he's dead. I just - this should not be, no one should stand for it. Capital punishment doled out by the cops on a whim on any Wednesday night. But there's no one with the power to stop it. You think it's a mistake on some level, that there's some kind of training problem, or at least that publicity will get them to dial back their behavior, but there's nothing that can stop it. And then you think what is even the fucking point if we can't have a society where cops don't shoot people in front of their loved ones.
posted by Frowner at 9:43 PM on July 6, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 9:43 PM on July 6, 2016 [40 favorites]
Here's his Facebook. He was a student at and employee of the University of Minnesota. His girlfriend said in the video that Castile had no record and that he had a permit for the gun he was carrying, which he had told the officer.
posted by AFABulous at 9:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 9:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
. .
posted by en forme de poire at 9:48 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by en forme de poire at 9:48 PM on July 6, 2016
The Facebook Live video appears to have vanished - not clear why.
posted by sallybrown at 9:51 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by sallybrown at 9:51 PM on July 6, 2016
I honestly don't even understand how our society can begin to walk this sickness back as long as the police as a bloc are unwilling to join in aggressively righting the ship. The open insurrection of the NYPD against Bill de Blasio in response to some minor perceived slights made it clear that this sector considers itself answerable to no-one politically. When the police are seen openly to murder with no accountability, at what point do we consider this a de facto junta?
It can be done. I understand the impulse to despair, but it's worth noting that those who were watching the Civil Rights Movement face down firehoses and police dogs sixty years ago, and for that matter those watching Theodore Roosevelt battle the corruption of the New York police force over a hundred years ago felt the same. Institutions do not reform themselves, and they do not give in to reform easily or willingly. The police are not, I repeat not, going to "join as a bloc" to pursue reforms, any more than any other institution. Yet we have seen the police force throughout our history reformed, again and again, by popular pressure driving political change.
I feel, especially for my demographic (white, male, aspirant middle class) despair can become something of an escape mechanism. If there's nothing we can do, then there's no moral obligation to try, is there? It's the second easy way out, the one we take when the first ("this isn't a real problem") is closed. But it isn't true. The revolt against de Blasio is a revolt driven by the assumption (or at least the hope) that they can deter other politicians, or discourage citizens who support his initiatives. It's a sign of fear. And it is a fear that the impulse towards reform will spread widely enough, deeply enough, that reform becomes inevitable - the point at which it becomes too politically costly for those who make the laws and pay the salaries to avoid.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:52 PM on July 6, 2016 [35 favorites]
It can be done. I understand the impulse to despair, but it's worth noting that those who were watching the Civil Rights Movement face down firehoses and police dogs sixty years ago, and for that matter those watching Theodore Roosevelt battle the corruption of the New York police force over a hundred years ago felt the same. Institutions do not reform themselves, and they do not give in to reform easily or willingly. The police are not, I repeat not, going to "join as a bloc" to pursue reforms, any more than any other institution. Yet we have seen the police force throughout our history reformed, again and again, by popular pressure driving political change.
I feel, especially for my demographic (white, male, aspirant middle class) despair can become something of an escape mechanism. If there's nothing we can do, then there's no moral obligation to try, is there? It's the second easy way out, the one we take when the first ("this isn't a real problem") is closed. But it isn't true. The revolt against de Blasio is a revolt driven by the assumption (or at least the hope) that they can deter other politicians, or discourage citizens who support his initiatives. It's a sign of fear. And it is a fear that the impulse towards reform will spread widely enough, deeply enough, that reform becomes inevitable - the point at which it becomes too politically costly for those who make the laws and pay the salaries to avoid.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:52 PM on July 6, 2016 [35 favorites]
We hear about the murders, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that black people receive worse treatment from cops in every category imaginable.
We're looking at a different kind of thug here. The people who go into law enforcement for the chance to mistreat others in ways they wouldn't be able to as a civilian. Who is hiring these thugs and failing to keep close enough tabs on the police force to be able to detect and fire anyone who develops these thuggish attitudes?
I mean, it's self-evident that some rotten people are going to be attracted to positions of power. And it's also known that power corrupts. These are facts that need to be acknowledged and dealt with. A police force is a dangerous thing if it's not weeded on a regular basis. With Obama at the top of the pyramid right now, at some point corruption must be coming into it if leadership is failing to keep the ranks free of thugs like this.
posted by mantecol at 9:53 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
We're looking at a different kind of thug here. The people who go into law enforcement for the chance to mistreat others in ways they wouldn't be able to as a civilian. Who is hiring these thugs and failing to keep close enough tabs on the police force to be able to detect and fire anyone who develops these thuggish attitudes?
I mean, it's self-evident that some rotten people are going to be attracted to positions of power. And it's also known that power corrupts. These are facts that need to be acknowledged and dealt with. A police force is a dangerous thing if it's not weeded on a regular basis. With Obama at the top of the pyramid right now, at some point corruption must be coming into it if leadership is failing to keep the ranks free of thugs like this.
posted by mantecol at 9:53 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
So what do black and brown people in America do now? Because no matter what the 14th Amendment says, we're definitely not citizens in the eyes of too many white people in power, and in the opinion of too many people who represent "the Law" who are allowed to murder us at will, even if we do everything right and by the book.
What else there to say? What else is there to believe? Why bother giving a shit about a country that has so many people in it just itching to murder us?
As for the video, it's on YouTube, and I'm sure it'll be on LiveLeak in a minute (but I'm sure I wouldn't read the comments), and the local CBS station has linked to the YouTube version (which will itself probably be replicated) on their site.
posted by droplet at 9:55 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
What else there to say? What else is there to believe? Why bother giving a shit about a country that has so many people in it just itching to murder us?
As for the video, it's on YouTube, and I'm sure it'll be on LiveLeak in a minute (but I'm sure I wouldn't read the comments), and the local CBS station has linked to the YouTube version (which will itself probably be replicated) on their site.
posted by droplet at 9:55 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
By the way, for those who will make a point of Sterling's carrying a gun, which has been reported in a number of places, remember that Louisiana is an open-carry state.
It is amazing how much "he had a gun" or even "he was reaching for what seemed like it was a gun" or even just "he was reaching" is supposed to make the immediate execution of a person of color perfectly ok, but gun-toting white NRA members think it's their god-given right to go to Starbucks looking like this and not be so much as hassled.
posted by zachlipton at 9:55 PM on July 6, 2016 [89 favorites]
It is amazing how much "he had a gun" or even "he was reaching for what seemed like it was a gun" or even just "he was reaching" is supposed to make the immediate execution of a person of color perfectly ok, but gun-toting white NRA members think it's their god-given right to go to Starbucks looking like this and not be so much as hassled.
posted by zachlipton at 9:55 PM on July 6, 2016 [89 favorites]
I'm hoping to god the Facebook video is down because the woman who filmed it took it down at the advice of a good lawyer who's actually on her side.
I keep hoping. Not sure if that's completely naive of me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:55 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
I keep hoping. Not sure if that's completely naive of me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:55 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jesus. I forgot to turn off autoplay, and saw a few seconds of the Falcon Heights video. I couldn't keep watching. It feels obscene to watch or share these videos--to make a spectacle of black death and suffering--and obscene to ignore them. Nothing about this is not obscene.
The woman who made that video is still in police custody. They took her away in handcuffs.
posted by karayel at 9:56 PM on July 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
The woman who made that video is still in police custody. They took her away in handcuffs.
posted by karayel at 9:56 PM on July 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
I've seen the Falcon Heights video cropping up on Twitter so it has been saved by people, thankfully. (Added Falcon Heights when I realized I had to specify WHICH MURDER I was talking about)
posted by AFABulous at 10:01 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 10:01 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm hoping to god the Facebook video is down because the woman who filmed it took it down at the advice of a good lawyer who's actually on her side.
Why would not having the video up be of any benefit to her? At this point, the more views it gets, the less able the St. Anthony PD is able to create a narrative about a scary black man trying to gun down a platoon of cops.
FYI, the video is still available, having been copied and put on youtube by "Starlight Live". If you search for the hash tag, it'll come up. Be warned, it doesn't show the shooting, but it does show Castile bleeding out with four bullets in him.
posted by fatbird at 10:04 PM on July 6, 2016
Why would not having the video up be of any benefit to her? At this point, the more views it gets, the less able the St. Anthony PD is able to create a narrative about a scary black man trying to gun down a platoon of cops.
FYI, the video is still available, having been copied and put on youtube by "Starlight Live". If you search for the hash tag, it'll come up. Be warned, it doesn't show the shooting, but it does show Castile bleeding out with four bullets in him.
posted by fatbird at 10:04 PM on July 6, 2016
The other thing is that these videos go around and we see all these really graphic images of Black suffering and death, and it doesn't change anything except that there's these images out there in the world. It feels like people shouldn't have to live the rest of their lives knowing that their darling son's death is out there on youtube, or their partner's or their father's. It just - it seems like such a, such a perversion of intimacy, and it doesn't do any good even, because it's not about needing proof. Everybody knows now and it still doesn't change.
posted by Frowner at 10:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
reading this thread and the one about police floats at pride feels like whiplash.
posted by nadawi at 10:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:08 PM on July 6, 2016 [33 favorites]
"He was going for a gun" is the police equivalent of the elementary student's "the dog ate my homework" excuse.
posted by snwod at 10:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by snwod at 10:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is insane. Is there a point at which a city is safer for its inhabitants without police?
posted by Mrs. Davros at 10:11 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Davros at 10:11 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
I feel like it is impossible to see these images, one after another, of people of color being executed by the police, and not say, hey, that thing that black people always told us? That they are under siege? That any encounter with a cop could instantly turn deadly?
I mean, how can you deny it? How now, when the evidence just builds and builds? And yet the same pattern instantly kicks in, the defenders of privilege come rushing out, insisting that the cops were right, digging through the victim's past for anything to prove they somehow deserved a roadside execution, this great pile on of racist denial that not just refuses to acknowledge the horror and tragedy of it, but makes the victims victim again, dragging them through the mud, desperate to dehumanize them to the extent that their death was not just acceptable, but necessary.
I just want to scream, and I'm an observer. I can't imagine what it must be like for people of color to not just now witness this death, but to witness the surge of racism insisting that black death is a social good.
posted by maxsparber at 10:17 PM on July 6, 2016 [54 favorites]
I mean, how can you deny it? How now, when the evidence just builds and builds? And yet the same pattern instantly kicks in, the defenders of privilege come rushing out, insisting that the cops were right, digging through the victim's past for anything to prove they somehow deserved a roadside execution, this great pile on of racist denial that not just refuses to acknowledge the horror and tragedy of it, but makes the victims victim again, dragging them through the mud, desperate to dehumanize them to the extent that their death was not just acceptable, but necessary.
I just want to scream, and I'm an observer. I can't imagine what it must be like for people of color to not just now witness this death, but to witness the surge of racism insisting that black death is a social good.
posted by maxsparber at 10:17 PM on July 6, 2016 [54 favorites]
I don't know how anyone will be able to deny that this one isn't straight up racism. I mean, it just doesn't make sense that a guy would pull a gun on a cop when his girlfriend and four year old are in the car. Especially when he's just told the cop he has a (legally permitted) gun. The cop was clearly primed to feel afraid. I know this would have never ever happened if it had been me.
posted by AFABulous at 10:27 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 10:27 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
am i seeing correctly that the girlfriend is still in police custody? do we know why she was arrested/detained? is the baby with family or being held by the state? god, this is so horrific.
posted by nadawi at 10:31 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 10:31 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the only of these videos I've ever watched was Tamir Rice and Sandra Bland because it's just too horrifying. I regret watching those because they haunt me because I don't know what is effective to get anything done about this. I don't need to see any more to know something has to change but even writing my elected officials (and voting for ones who seem interested in police reform) seems like nothing. That said, the SPD is doing contract negotiations and one of the areas being changed is related to disciplinary hearings. So I guess I go write Murray again.
posted by R343L at 10:33 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by R343L at 10:33 PM on July 6, 2016
So what's going to be the excuse for this one? What crime did Philando Castile commit that was worthy of execution? Other than being black, obviously. And where are Lavish Reynolds and her child? I'm so, so worried for them. How appalling that I, that we, can have zero confidence in their safety in police custody.
posted by yasaman at 10:33 PM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 10:33 PM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
They'll find a way to deny it, and a way to exonerate the officer. There will be some protests. The MN BLM facebook post about it will get about two comments in before the "but black crime" trolls start up again. There will be some kind of hearing about the officer, but it will be delayed or moved or soft-pedaled and as soon as they can minimize the public reaction they'll exonerate him. That's how we operate here in Minnesota, last bastion of liberalism.
Cold and cruel hearts in this state.
posted by Frowner at 10:35 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Cold and cruel hearts in this state.
posted by Frowner at 10:35 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Philando Castle committed the crime of getting pulled over by an officer obviously incompetent for street duty. Listen to his voice.
posted by rhizome at 10:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 10:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
i can't watch the video before bed if i hope to sleep, but i seem to be seeing screencaps that show both of the car's taillights on... if so, there wasn't even the flimsy cause to pull him over.
posted by nadawi at 10:40 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by nadawi at 10:40 PM on July 6, 2016
The traffic stop was for a broken taillight. One problem with that....
posted by AFABulous at 10:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 10:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
By coincidence just today I had finished with some catch-up reading of a back issue of UU World magazine I had that was full of articles about Black Lives Matter, the Moral Monday movement in North Carolina, and things like that. A lot of introspection about how we'd done so far to live up to our values, how we could do better, historical context and you know. On reflection it probably wasn't a coincidence at all, just run the numbers and it's not too unlikely that they'd align. But then that's the historical context too: we knew there'd be another one of these incidents before too long, we know there's going to be another-another one tomorrow or next week or next month.
And for me that history does help a little bit to hold off despair: if there's going to be progress, it'll only happen because of what we do again and again and then again, it'll be because of what we learn each time and how we respond each time. Good people are out there doing this and will continue in the future. I don't want to look back when I'm old and realize I didn't at least try to help them.
posted by traveler_ at 10:41 PM on July 6, 2016
And for me that history does help a little bit to hold off despair: if there's going to be progress, it'll only happen because of what we do again and again and then again, it'll be because of what we learn each time and how we respond each time. Good people are out there doing this and will continue in the future. I don't want to look back when I'm old and realize I didn't at least try to help them.
posted by traveler_ at 10:41 PM on July 6, 2016
I suppose it's possible it was a brake light that was out, but, oh wait, checking the legal code here, turns out people aren't supposed to be executed for burnt out brake lights either.
posted by zachlipton at 10:44 PM on July 6, 2016 [65 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:44 PM on July 6, 2016 [65 favorites]
My dad was born in 1940 and he swears to me that I can't imagine how bad it was for black people in America before the Civil Rights movement, and by God I want to believe him that it's better In some way now, but on nights like this I just don't know.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:56 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 10:56 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Advice for White Folks in the Wake of the Police Murder of a Black Person
posted by AFABulous at 10:57 PM on July 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 10:57 PM on July 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
My dad was born in 1940 and he swears to me that I can't imagine how bad it was for black people in America before the Civil Rights movement, and by God I want to believe him that it's better In some way now, but on nights like this I just don't know.
I've heard the same from (older) black co-workers. It took hard work to change things then, it will take hard work to change things now. But things can be changed. BLM and others wouldn't be out working if it were not so.
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:09 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've heard the same from (older) black co-workers. It took hard work to change things then, it will take hard work to change things now. But things can be changed. BLM and others wouldn't be out working if it were not so.
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:09 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
am i seeing correctly that the girlfriend is still in police custody? do we know why she was arrested/detained?
Several people on twitter who've called the St Anthony's police dept have been told that she's "not in custody" but is being "interviewed", whatever that means. I don't think anyone finds it particularly reassuring.
posted by karayel at 11:21 PM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
Several people on twitter who've called the St Anthony's police dept have been told that she's "not in custody" but is being "interviewed", whatever that means. I don't think anyone finds it particularly reassuring.
posted by karayel at 11:21 PM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
That Falcon Heights video. I kept having to pause it just to process. The woman calmly stating what happened to the camera, because what else can she do? The little girl trying to soothe her mother, because what else can she do? And everyone tweeting and commenting and posting, because what else can we do? Nothing, because he's dead.
And yet, watching the first few seconds of video again, I can't help but feel a little bit, just a bit, of empathy for the cop. Regardless of the verdict (I think we all know what the verdict will be), he'll have to live with the fact that he's killed an innocent person for the rest of his life, and he seems to know it. Or maybe he's just worried he'll actually face consequences for his actions, but I'd like to retain a kernel of faith in humanity.
And it just makes me think... no one is benefiting from these murders. No one. Obviously not the victims or the victims' families. Obviously not black Americans. Not non-PoC Americans, who at least partially subsidize the useless trials and the settlements used as a poor substitute for justice, a consolation prize for not having your husband your father your son- money that could be going to, oh I don't know, undoing the legacy of centuries of racism on black communities. And not even the cops, who need the trust of the communities they're policing.
So why the fuck is "we should be doing something about these deaths" an assertion that's debated? Why is "black lives matter" such a fucking controversial statement?
posted by perplexion at 11:34 PM on July 6, 2016 [19 favorites]
And yet, watching the first few seconds of video again, I can't help but feel a little bit, just a bit, of empathy for the cop. Regardless of the verdict (I think we all know what the verdict will be), he'll have to live with the fact that he's killed an innocent person for the rest of his life, and he seems to know it. Or maybe he's just worried he'll actually face consequences for his actions, but I'd like to retain a kernel of faith in humanity.
And it just makes me think... no one is benefiting from these murders. No one. Obviously not the victims or the victims' families. Obviously not black Americans. Not non-PoC Americans, who at least partially subsidize the useless trials and the settlements used as a poor substitute for justice, a consolation prize for not having your husband your father your son- money that could be going to, oh I don't know, undoing the legacy of centuries of racism on black communities. And not even the cops, who need the trust of the communities they're policing.
So why the fuck is "we should be doing something about these deaths" an assertion that's debated? Why is "black lives matter" such a fucking controversial statement?
posted by perplexion at 11:34 PM on July 6, 2016 [19 favorites]
Unfortunately, there are those who benefit. The prison-industrial complex. Politicians who made their reputation being "tough on crime." Even, at some remove (depressing to think on it, but true nonetheless), those of us who don't have to compete with African-American citizens or the poor more generally in the dwindling job market because they've been essentially locked out of it (in the prison or the graveyard or the crumbling infrastructure of the inner cities). The costs (including those faced by officers on the streets) are a side-effect.
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [30 favorites]
but is being "interviewed", whatever that means.
It means they're going to find out what her story is first thing, so they can start coming up with alibis early. Then, they're going to wear her down until she contradicts herself on tape and use that to discredit her as a liar later.
But the cops have to get a couple of days off to relax and get their stories straight before they're allowed to be "interviewed". Stressful and confusing, you know, murdering someone. Might say something you didn't mean to say on the record.
posted by ctmf at 11:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [63 favorites]
It means they're going to find out what her story is first thing, so they can start coming up with alibis early. Then, they're going to wear her down until she contradicts herself on tape and use that to discredit her as a liar later.
But the cops have to get a couple of days off to relax and get their stories straight before they're allowed to be "interviewed". Stressful and confusing, you know, murdering someone. Might say something you didn't mean to say on the record.
posted by ctmf at 11:41 PM on July 6, 2016 [63 favorites]
I mean, it's much easier to come up with a not-actually-disprovable story a couple of days later, once you already know what the witness saw and didn't see. I hope she's just straight-up refusing to say a word.
posted by ctmf at 11:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 11:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Here are some concrete starting points for citizen action.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 12:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
The Facebook Live video appears to have vanished - not clear why.
It's all over CNN right now (well, CNN International at least, not that joke that they call CNN and show in the US).
posted by modernnomad at 12:38 AM on July 7, 2016
It's all over CNN right now (well, CNN International at least, not that joke that they call CNN and show in the US).
posted by modernnomad at 12:38 AM on July 7, 2016
I saw the Sterling shooting in the early morning hours yesterday during a fit of insomnia. I was so empty at seeing it. Like "yup, it's happening again." I fell alseep, and something must have snapped because I had zero memory of it. Until seeing news the second shooting. How are we doing this again? How can this still be happening?
Disarm the police. It's the only answer I can think of at this point outside of outright disbanding them. And you know what? I think we'd mostly be okay if cops were disarmed. Of course they couldn't go in as oppressors anymore.
I haven't watched any of the videos. I can't. I just can't. I know it's a luxury to choose not to, but I can't handle it.
I logged into Facebook expecting to see the same old racist shit, but hoping to see some change. I was mortified to see instead, there was nothing.
This country is going to burn. It's a tinder box and we amidst an extremely volitile election. My only hope is that it will maybe, just maybe force real change.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Disarm the police. It's the only answer I can think of at this point outside of outright disbanding them. And you know what? I think we'd mostly be okay if cops were disarmed. Of course they couldn't go in as oppressors anymore.
I haven't watched any of the videos. I can't. I just can't. I know it's a luxury to choose not to, but I can't handle it.
I logged into Facebook expecting to see the same old racist shit, but hoping to see some change. I was mortified to see instead, there was nothing.
This country is going to burn. It's a tinder box and we amidst an extremely volitile election. My only hope is that it will maybe, just maybe force real change.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
This country is going to burn. It's a tinder box and we amidst an extremely volitile election.
Yeah. I'm very concerned Donald Trump is about to say something inflammatory that may get even more people killed.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah. I'm very concerned Donald Trump is about to say something inflammatory that may get even more people killed.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've had this sense since the first night of Furgeson.
The infuriating injustice cannot hold. No people are this calm, willing to take this much for this long.
Every morning I wake up surprised that a whole city hasn't been burned down.
How do the cops in Minnesota expect any kind of safety anymore? How do the citizens trust them?
The whole thing is untenable, the center cannot hold.
posted by lattiboy at 1:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The infuriating injustice cannot hold. No people are this calm, willing to take this much for this long.
Every morning I wake up surprised that a whole city hasn't been burned down.
How do the cops in Minnesota expect any kind of safety anymore? How do the citizens trust them?
The whole thing is untenable, the center cannot hold.
posted by lattiboy at 1:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
This country is going to burn.
Talk like this, as a brown man with a brown family, makes my blood run cold. You are writing us off. If you are aware of the problem, as a white person, please do not despair, or become apathetic. Or wait for things to shake out as things go to shit for us minorities. Do something to help stop it.
posted by Mister Cheese at 1:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [120 favorites]
Talk like this, as a brown man with a brown family, makes my blood run cold. You are writing us off. If you are aware of the problem, as a white person, please do not despair, or become apathetic. Or wait for things to shake out as things go to shit for us minorities. Do something to help stop it.
posted by Mister Cheese at 1:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [120 favorites]
Good point Mister Cheese.
I just have this existential dread that society is kind of unraveling. I know it's largely not true, but the darkest parts of society are coming out with Trump and minority groups are (rightfully) filled with hot fire and fury not seen in two generations.
posted by lattiboy at 1:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just have this existential dread that society is kind of unraveling. I know it's largely not true, but the darkest parts of society are coming out with Trump and minority groups are (rightfully) filled with hot fire and fury not seen in two generations.
posted by lattiboy at 1:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
FYI, the video is still available, having been copied and put on youtube by "Starlight Live". If you search for the hash tag, it'll come up. Be warned, it doesn't show the shooting, but it does show Castile bleeding out with four bullets in him.
What's the point of this indirection? The link is here. Again, this may be upsetting.
posted by thelonius at 1:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
What's the point of this indirection? The link is here. Again, this may be upsetting.
posted by thelonius at 1:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:51 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:51 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jesus Christ America, when are you going to cut this shit out?
What will it take? More people of color in the Police?
There must be some data-wrangler out there somewhere who has looked at this problem and seen that, yes, racists are at the root of the problem, but if this one thing were also changed - say only one in five police officers got to carry a gun. Or, say, a police officer who kills someone is then liable for murder, criminally and/or in a civil case... Or, something.
I worry for my friends and friends of friends and their children, who still live in the US.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
What will it take? More people of color in the Police?
There must be some data-wrangler out there somewhere who has looked at this problem and seen that, yes, racists are at the root of the problem, but if this one thing were also changed - say only one in five police officers got to carry a gun. Or, say, a police officer who kills someone is then liable for murder, criminally and/or in a civil case... Or, something.
I worry for my friends and friends of friends and their children, who still live in the US.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
. and .
Both shootings are tragic and troubling.
For people wondering WTF American police are thinking these days, the recent Frontline episode, Policing the Police tries to shed a little light by following Newark cops around. It's clear that both the local residents and the police are fearful of each other, which gets dangerous whenever stops become confrontational. Such a web of social problems to address, but at the very least there needs to be more consequences for police fuck-ups.
posted by p3t3 at 2:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Both shootings are tragic and troubling.
For people wondering WTF American police are thinking these days, the recent Frontline episode, Policing the Police tries to shed a little light by following Newark cops around. It's clear that both the local residents and the police are fearful of each other, which gets dangerous whenever stops become confrontational. Such a web of social problems to address, but at the very least there needs to be more consequences for police fuck-ups.
posted by p3t3 at 2:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
/Mister Cheese, I don't think lattiboy meant "this country is going to burn" in an apathetic way. I've had the same fears, actually - that some huge explosion of rage is going to happen - but I'm actually thinking more of, like, a retread of the 1968 convention in Chicago. Something which brings two of the biggest opposing forces in this country face-to-face, instead of having them be isolated behind their computers, and one person says something dumb in passing and it sets another person off and the tension is so great that everyone gets drawn into it. I seriously am expecting a large, and public, riot at one of the conventions this year.
But that's not a surrender. I am honestly hoping that doesn't happen. But I am just envisioning what will happen when you have the Trump supporters outside the convention hall running into Trump protestors - and whereas other such meetings at past conventions might have only resulted in a lot of yelling and that's it, this time you have the tension from the Trump protestors being angry at the status quo and their bigotry, running into the tension from the Trump supporters who've probably already started reacting to Alton Sterling's death with "blue lives matter too" hashtags and reflexive debates about whether Sterling had a gun so the police were justified- and what would have been a lot of yelling is going to go a different route when someone tries throwing a punch.
People are trying to fight this. But the counter argument is so dug in that it may take a public clash to make us all wake up to how dug in to our opposing sides we are, and that may rally more people to the notion that "hey, we gotta do something to stop this shit."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
But that's not a surrender. I am honestly hoping that doesn't happen. But I am just envisioning what will happen when you have the Trump supporters outside the convention hall running into Trump protestors - and whereas other such meetings at past conventions might have only resulted in a lot of yelling and that's it, this time you have the tension from the Trump protestors being angry at the status quo and their bigotry, running into the tension from the Trump supporters who've probably already started reacting to Alton Sterling's death with "blue lives matter too" hashtags and reflexive debates about whether Sterling had a gun so the police were justified- and what would have been a lot of yelling is going to go a different route when someone tries throwing a punch.
People are trying to fight this. But the counter argument is so dug in that it may take a public clash to make us all wake up to how dug in to our opposing sides we are, and that may rally more people to the notion that "hey, we gotta do something to stop this shit."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
What is amazing to me - truly amazing - is that black people aren't shooting cops at random as these murders keep on occurring. They're demonstrating a tremendous amount of restraint. I can't help but wonder how long they will continue doing so.
posted by dancestoblue at 2:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by dancestoblue at 2:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
This country is going to burn. It's a tinder box and we amidst an extremely volitile election. My only hope is that it will maybe, just maybe force real change.
This country has been like this since before its inception. But sure, it's that the media landscape changed enough for you to notice that signifies the beginning of the end.
posted by rorgy at 3:14 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
This country has been like this since before its inception. But sure, it's that the media landscape changed enough for you to notice that signifies the beginning of the end.
posted by rorgy at 3:14 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Really should read:
For My Son, In The Event The Police Leave You Fatherless
[via Making Light]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:30 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
For My Son, In The Event The Police Leave You Fatherless
[via Making Light]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:30 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
And it just makes me think... no one is benefiting from these murders. No one.
Some of the shooters have had collections taken up in their name. So they benefited quite nicely via people giving them money.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Some of the shooters have had collections taken up in their name. So they benefited quite nicely via people giving them money.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
What is amazing to me - truly amazing - is that black people aren't shooting cops at random as these murders keep on occurring.
The people who the cops are murdering aren't people who would ever consider killing anyone or who know anyone who'd ever consider killing anyone. The cops seem to know how to keep away from places where there's actually any violence, from my reading of the reports.
posted by ambrosen at 3:55 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
The people who the cops are murdering aren't people who would ever consider killing anyone or who know anyone who'd ever consider killing anyone. The cops seem to know how to keep away from places where there's actually any violence, from my reading of the reports.
posted by ambrosen at 3:55 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
>“we give officers normally a day or so to go home and think about it.”
Perhaps they should take a day or so to go home and think about it before shooting someone.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:11 AM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Perhaps they should take a day or so to go home and think about it before shooting someone.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:11 AM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
@lilisolomon: "They kill our fathers then mock us for being fatherless."
posted by zombieflanders at 4:15 AM on July 7, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 4:15 AM on July 7, 2016 [34 favorites]
The disgust and outrage Abdullah Muflahi is expressing about the killing of his welcome friend outside his own store reminds me of the case of Earl Sampson and Alex Saleh. It's another damning indictment of police culture that they can totally disregard the input of business owners about what is transpiring at their own businesses.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:44 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 4:44 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
This country is going to burn.
Talk like this, as a brown man with a brown family, makes my blood run cold. You are writing us off. If you are aware of the problem, as a white person, please do not despair, or become apathetic. Or wait for things to shake out as things go to shit for us minorities. Do something to help stop it.
100%. Wringing your hands and making jokes about climate change and meteors and Trump is not appropriate or clever or helpful. If you are not actively fighting to make things better, in this and in every political thing that matters, please just be quiet, or donate money to those who are fighting and vote. Work.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:55 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Talk like this, as a brown man with a brown family, makes my blood run cold. You are writing us off. If you are aware of the problem, as a white person, please do not despair, or become apathetic. Or wait for things to shake out as things go to shit for us minorities. Do something to help stop it.
100%. Wringing your hands and making jokes about climate change and meteors and Trump is not appropriate or clever or helpful. If you are not actively fighting to make things better, in this and in every political thing that matters, please just be quiet, or donate money to those who are fighting and vote. Work.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:55 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
What the fuck is up with the responses to @lilisolomon's tweet? I just...woah.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The benefit is to a white supremacist system. How quickly do white folks all over the country figure that the cops had good reason to do what they did? How quickly do irrelevant arrest (not conviction, as if that even mattered) records start showing up on dead men?
White people need to believe that the police are working for THEM, and the killing of "no-account" Black folk helps their base believe.
White folks, we have to say it over and over, we have to be visible ... these cops are not making us safer. They are destroying our humanity.
posted by allthinky at 4:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
White people need to believe that the police are working for THEM, and the killing of "no-account" Black folk helps their base believe.
White folks, we have to say it over and over, we have to be visible ... these cops are not making us safer. They are destroying our humanity.
posted by allthinky at 4:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
What the fuck is up with the responses to @lilisolomon's tweet? I just...woah.
What? It's just people being people on the internet, wanting to argue "facts" and "logic".
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
What? It's just people being people on the internet, wanting to argue "facts" and "logic".
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Daily News in New York this morning (graphic, FYI)
I woke up this morning to another Black man's name as a hashtag. I'm not even sure to express my anger and my fear, especially for my nieces and nephews, who are growing up in this world.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:09 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I woke up this morning to another Black man's name as a hashtag. I'm not even sure to express my anger and my fear, especially for my nieces and nephews, who are growing up in this world.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:09 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I spent my early twenties railing angrily against the surveillance state, and against whatever perceived Orwellian slant it was giving the world. A decade later, with everyone now carrying a miniature video camera at all times, I've decided to take the opposite tack and steer into the skid. I bought a dashboard camera. I have an app that live-uploads video somewhere that it can't be destroyed by physically destroying the phone. If Google Glass had caught on, my wife would probably refuse to be seen in public with me as I went full gargoyle, but I for sure would have done it. I want to volunteer time or money to help put similar measures into the hands of everyone, because that is the only way this kind of shit is ever going to stop. Video makes such an enormous difference that I am convinced it should become our greatest ally in the coming fight against the police.
A short aside: after years of making periodic complaints about MBTA drivers doing insane things on the roads, the stars aligned last week. While I was sitting at a red light, a bus pulled out from behind me, into the oncoming traffic lane, and blew through the long-since-red light. I was aghast, but realized that my dashboard cam was running, and the whole incident was on film. After reporting it to the complaint line, and predictably hearing nothing back, I threw it up on the Boston sub-Reddit. It exploded. The difference between eyewitness accounts and video evidence cannot be overstated. I've been doing interviews with local news stations, and watching the T get raked over the coals by the same people who have shrugged their shoulders when I've described much worse behavior.
If the cops won't wear their body cameras, then fuck it, we'll do the surveilling for them. Even if these sociopaths never face charges (and let's be realistic about the political climate in Baton Rouge, and accept that they very well might not), we can make them afraid to leave their houses for fear of the constant abuse they will take as they walk the streets of their own city. This isn't what I want my democracy to look like, but I will do whatever it takes to stop these monsters.
posted by Mayor West at 5:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [109 favorites]
A short aside: after years of making periodic complaints about MBTA drivers doing insane things on the roads, the stars aligned last week. While I was sitting at a red light, a bus pulled out from behind me, into the oncoming traffic lane, and blew through the long-since-red light. I was aghast, but realized that my dashboard cam was running, and the whole incident was on film. After reporting it to the complaint line, and predictably hearing nothing back, I threw it up on the Boston sub-Reddit. It exploded. The difference between eyewitness accounts and video evidence cannot be overstated. I've been doing interviews with local news stations, and watching the T get raked over the coals by the same people who have shrugged their shoulders when I've described much worse behavior.
If the cops won't wear their body cameras, then fuck it, we'll do the surveilling for them. Even if these sociopaths never face charges (and let's be realistic about the political climate in Baton Rouge, and accept that they very well might not), we can make them afraid to leave their houses for fear of the constant abuse they will take as they walk the streets of their own city. This isn't what I want my democracy to look like, but I will do whatever it takes to stop these monsters.
posted by Mayor West at 5:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [109 favorites]
I'm beginning to think that we need to radicalize the scads of underemployed young lawyers --including minority law students who were enticed to attend a second or third rate law school only to find the out that the bad shape of the industry combines with structural racism and school snobbery in hiring and promotion to put the more desirable and profitable career prospects out of reach.
Get those kids in a reasonably funded public interest firm and then just start suing the cops, city managers, police commissioners, school board axemen, mayors, etc. Literally make Federal cases out of run-of-the-mill police encounters and practices.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:15 AM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
Get those kids in a reasonably funded public interest firm and then just start suing the cops, city managers, police commissioners, school board axemen, mayors, etc. Literally make Federal cases out of run-of-the-mill police encounters and practices.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:15 AM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
This is via FB, from a journalist:
It's happening tomorrow. I'm taking my sons out and having "the talk" with them. I'm tell them - for the first time - that cops aren't all like Captain America. They're not all heroes.
I'm going to take away their innocence. Tomorrow, they'll learn that they're different.
I'll explain why I send them back to their rooms to put on nicer clothes for a trip to Home Depot. I'll explain why I make them behave like miniature tax accountants when we go out for lunch at McDonalds. And I'll explain why I can never let them have a toy gun, even if it's bright orange and shoots water.
And I'm going to explain why those rules don't apply other kids in our neighborhood.
I'm dreading it more than I can tell you.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [85 favorites]
It's happening tomorrow. I'm taking my sons out and having "the talk" with them. I'm tell them - for the first time - that cops aren't all like Captain America. They're not all heroes.
I'm going to take away their innocence. Tomorrow, they'll learn that they're different.
I'll explain why I send them back to their rooms to put on nicer clothes for a trip to Home Depot. I'll explain why I make them behave like miniature tax accountants when we go out for lunch at McDonalds. And I'll explain why I can never let them have a toy gun, even if it's bright orange and shoots water.
And I'm going to explain why those rules don't apply other kids in our neighborhood.
I'm dreading it more than I can tell you.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [85 favorites]
What is amazing to me - truly amazing - is that black people aren't shooting cops at random as these murders keep on occurring. They're demonstrating a tremendous amount of restraint. I can't help but wonder how long they will continue doing so.
Seriously? That surprises you?
Does it surprise you because you think shooting cops at random would be the right reaction?
Or just because you expected black people to react that way?
posted by sour cream at 5:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Seriously? That surprises you?
Does it surprise you because you think shooting cops at random would be the right reaction?
Or just because you expected black people to react that way?
posted by sour cream at 5:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
[The above journalist is white, but his children are brown.]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:20 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:20 AM on July 7, 2016
shall we (white folks) protest not just with our words but with our bodies? civil disobedience (organizing to go to jail ourselves, in numbers, in protest - in solidarity with black folks, as tribal/proxy penitence for the ways of white folks) seems appropriate. let our own mothers suffer, let our own children cry.
(with apologies for speaking in b/w binary)
this is the thing that has meaning to me now.
how to begin?
posted by anshuman at 5:23 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
(with apologies for speaking in b/w binary)
this is the thing that has meaning to me now.
how to begin?
posted by anshuman at 5:23 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Another one this morning.
posted by Talez at 5:24 AM on July 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
She says as Castile was reaching for his wallet, he informed officers that he had a firearm in his possession, and a conceal-and-carry permit.Jesus fucking Christ. If this was a white guy he'd be alive.
Reynolds says in the video that an officer then shot her boyfriend four times.
The officer in the video at one point screams, “I told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his hand out …”
Reynolds tells the officer, “You told him to get his I.D., sir, his driver’s license.”
posted by Talez at 5:24 AM on July 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
I feel sick and dizzy and angry and confused this morning. This. Shit. Must. Stop.
I encourage everyone who has a smartphone to install an app like Fi-Vo Film (not free, but cheap – I am not affiliated). Put it on your home screen in an easily remembered location. It'll automatically start filming when you launch the app, and it'll automatically upload the video to your Dropbox account as soon as you stop recording.
Of course, if we've learned anything over the last few years, it's that cops can murder unarmed civilians in broad daylight, recorded from multiple camera angles, and get away with it. But the threat of cameras can encourage officers to think twice before they act. And maybe, just maybe, after enough videos like this, America will wake the fuck up.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I encourage everyone who has a smartphone to install an app like Fi-Vo Film (not free, but cheap – I am not affiliated). Put it on your home screen in an easily remembered location. It'll automatically start filming when you launch the app, and it'll automatically upload the video to your Dropbox account as soon as you stop recording.
Of course, if we've learned anything over the last few years, it's that cops can murder unarmed civilians in broad daylight, recorded from multiple camera angles, and get away with it. But the threat of cameras can encourage officers to think twice before they act. And maybe, just maybe, after enough videos like this, America will wake the fuck up.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
There was a 3am protest outside the governor's mansion and I assume something else will be organized (I didn't go, didn't know about it and would have had trouble getting there)Black Lives Matter MPLS twitter
I am sure that the BLM MPLS facebook and twitter will announce whatever else gets put together. IME they tend to put things up pretty last minute, so keep an eye out.
If I can get the time off work or it's at a time I can attend, I will be going and would be happy to meet any other mefites who want to attend - you can memail me. If it's during the workday on short notice, I won't be able to, though.
The BLM MPLS facebook page also has the number to call to demand that the police release his girlfriend.
posted by Frowner at 5:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I am sure that the BLM MPLS facebook and twitter will announce whatever else gets put together. IME they tend to put things up pretty last minute, so keep an eye out.
If I can get the time off work or it's at a time I can attend, I will be going and would be happy to meet any other mefites who want to attend - you can memail me. If it's during the workday on short notice, I won't be able to, though.
The BLM MPLS facebook page also has the number to call to demand that the police release his girlfriend.
posted by Frowner at 5:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Know justice, know peace.
“Peace is more than the absence of war. Peace is accord. Harmony.”
― Laini Taylor, Daughter of Smoke & Bone
Or, Prince, Baltimore
posted by petebest at 5:46 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
“Peace is more than the absence of war. Peace is accord. Harmony.”
― Laini Taylor, Daughter of Smoke & Bone
Or, Prince, Baltimore
posted by petebest at 5:46 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seriously? That surprises you?
Does it surprise you because you think shooting cops at random would be the right reaction?
Or just because you expected black people to react that way?
I think we can all agree that if you're a black man who is interacting with the police, there's a blanket risk that you're going to be summarily executed for the crime of being black and interacting with the police. Exactly what that risk is depends a lot on circumstances, but it's certainly not zero, and as you get into certain parts of the country, it gets a whole lot closer to 1 than any of us are comfortable admitting. Assuming your top priority is to survive the encounter, what does that number need to be before pre-emptively opening fire becomes the superior option?
That's not a hypothetical question. Seriously, what's the number? If it's above .5 (it's a 50/50 shot that you're going to survive the encounter), you stand a much better chance of living to tell the tale by ambushing the duty cop, then lying facedown with your hands behind your head and waiting to be arrested. The ensuing barrage of media coverage will guarantee enough visibility that you won't be killed during the arrest. Sure, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison, but your life was forfeit the moment those flashing lights came on, and at least you still get to see your kids once a month.
If it's even marginally likely (say a 1% chance of being killed), then what's your moral obligation to your fellow citizens? At the point where law enforcement is willing to act as judge, jury, and executioner, and they can't be reigned in by any federal authority, then which is more morally repugnant: acting in pre-emptive self-defense, or submitting to them, risking your own life, and (if you survive) offloading the risk to whoever they stop tomorrow for a broken taillight?
These are horrifying things to even type out, but this is what law enforcement has done to themselves. When police departments become extrajudicial killers, civilians shooting at law enforcement might actually become the best course of action. And that shouldn't be read as an endorsement of violence against police; it should be read as the police needing a horrible wakeup call about what they're doing to their own people.
posted by Mayor West at 5:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Does it surprise you because you think shooting cops at random would be the right reaction?
Or just because you expected black people to react that way?
I think we can all agree that if you're a black man who is interacting with the police, there's a blanket risk that you're going to be summarily executed for the crime of being black and interacting with the police. Exactly what that risk is depends a lot on circumstances, but it's certainly not zero, and as you get into certain parts of the country, it gets a whole lot closer to 1 than any of us are comfortable admitting. Assuming your top priority is to survive the encounter, what does that number need to be before pre-emptively opening fire becomes the superior option?
That's not a hypothetical question. Seriously, what's the number? If it's above .5 (it's a 50/50 shot that you're going to survive the encounter), you stand a much better chance of living to tell the tale by ambushing the duty cop, then lying facedown with your hands behind your head and waiting to be arrested. The ensuing barrage of media coverage will guarantee enough visibility that you won't be killed during the arrest. Sure, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison, but your life was forfeit the moment those flashing lights came on, and at least you still get to see your kids once a month.
If it's even marginally likely (say a 1% chance of being killed), then what's your moral obligation to your fellow citizens? At the point where law enforcement is willing to act as judge, jury, and executioner, and they can't be reigned in by any federal authority, then which is more morally repugnant: acting in pre-emptive self-defense, or submitting to them, risking your own life, and (if you survive) offloading the risk to whoever they stop tomorrow for a broken taillight?
These are horrifying things to even type out, but this is what law enforcement has done to themselves. When police departments become extrajudicial killers, civilians shooting at law enforcement might actually become the best course of action. And that shouldn't be read as an endorsement of violence against police; it should be read as the police needing a horrible wakeup call about what they're doing to their own people.
posted by Mayor West at 5:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
If it's above .5 (it's a 50/50 shot that you're going to survive the encounter), you stand a much better chance of living to tell the tale by ambushing the duty cop, then lying facedown with your hands behind your head and waiting to be arrested.
Let's say these assholes get off even though the guy was on the ground with a cop kneeling on his head. If there's a 50-50 chance you won't survive the encounter unarmed what do you think the chances of surviving are if you kill a cop and then surrender?
You don't argue with someone who buys ink by the barrel. You don't start an armed war with people that can legally posses automatic weapons.
posted by Talez at 5:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Let's say these assholes get off even though the guy was on the ground with a cop kneeling on his head. If there's a 50-50 chance you won't survive the encounter unarmed what do you think the chances of surviving are if you kill a cop and then surrender?
You don't argue with someone who buys ink by the barrel. You don't start an armed war with people that can legally posses automatic weapons.
posted by Talez at 5:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Okay, I've seen three comments so far by clueless white men already trying to derail this into some kind of macho or racist fantasy about hyperviolent black people going vigilante on the police, and I've flagged all of them. Please don't fucking contribute to this ignorant nonsense or try to engage it or let it overwhelm this thread. If you are a white man whose reaction to these horrifying videos is to want to talk about how black men need to (or are going to) start shooting cops, you need to take a breath, think about Darren Wilson describing Michael Brown as an "it" and a "demon", think about the fear and assumptions of intrinsic black violence that led to the deaths of Alton Sterling and Philandro Castile, and keep your feelings to yourself. Maybe go read some of the recent studies on the racial empathy gap if your knee jerk reaction to seeing black people in pain is "what if they go on a rampage". Turning this thread into some bizarre white fantasy moment is not acceptable.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:58 AM on July 7, 2016 [123 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:58 AM on July 7, 2016 [123 favorites]
The repetitiveness of this highlighted in the article is an interesting and profoundly depressing element of this.
This has made me think - what is "the script" for these crimes? What *always* happens.
Here is an attempt at a list. What am I missing or is incorrect?
Hour zero: An unarmed black person is killed by a white police officer(s).
Hour two: a low quality cellphone video emerges of the crime. It looks very damning.
Hour three: the victim's name begins trending on twitter
Day one: Black protest marches begin
Day three: there is some minor violence or inconvenience caused by the protesters, mainstream public opinion turns against them
Subsequent week: The police drip feed the minor criminal history of the victim to the media.
Two or three weeks out: various facts emerge which disrupt the police narrative - physical evidence, eye witnesses, previous accusations against the perpetrator.
Two or three months later: the offender is acquited or charged with minor offences.
Three months out: the national media conversation moves on.
Six months out: investigative journalists write long pieces on the crime. It's generally concluded that the police officer was guilty.
posted by Erberus at 6:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [25 favorites]
This has made me think - what is "the script" for these crimes? What *always* happens.
Here is an attempt at a list. What am I missing or is incorrect?
Hour zero: An unarmed black person is killed by a white police officer(s).
Hour two: a low quality cellphone video emerges of the crime. It looks very damning.
Hour three: the victim's name begins trending on twitter
Day one: Black protest marches begin
Day three: there is some minor violence or inconvenience caused by the protesters, mainstream public opinion turns against them
Subsequent week: The police drip feed the minor criminal history of the victim to the media.
Two or three weeks out: various facts emerge which disrupt the police narrative - physical evidence, eye witnesses, previous accusations against the perpetrator.
Two or three months later: the offender is acquited or charged with minor offences.
Three months out: the national media conversation moves on.
Six months out: investigative journalists write long pieces on the crime. It's generally concluded that the police officer was guilty.
posted by Erberus at 6:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [25 favorites]
Sure, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison, but your life was forfeit the moment those flashing lights came on, and at least you still get to see your kids once a month.
There is, of course, also racist sentencing systems in place to go along with the racist policing.
"In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."
posted by dng at 6:04 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
There is, of course, also racist sentencing systems in place to go along with the racist policing.
"In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."
posted by dng at 6:04 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry. I feel helpless so I can't even begin to imagine what POC feel like right now and always. I'm so, so sorry.
I will be doing my research today. I'll be speaking up. I will attend protests and reform marches and whatever else I can do to lend my voice, however small it is, to the outcry.
This has to stop. It never should have started in the first place, obviously.
posted by cooker girl at 6:05 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I will be doing my research today. I'll be speaking up. I will attend protests and reform marches and whatever else I can do to lend my voice, however small it is, to the outcry.
This has to stop. It never should have started in the first place, obviously.
posted by cooker girl at 6:05 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Subsequent week: The police drip feed the minor criminal history of the victim to the media.
This starts about minute five not the subsequent week.
posted by Talez at 6:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
This starts about minute five not the subsequent week.
posted by Talez at 6:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
I don't think it's a "macho or racist fantasy about hyperviolent black people", I think it's a clueless white person's reaction to their dawning realization of how much shit Black folk put up with.
posted by whuppy at 6:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 6:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Deep, deep sigh, this happened like a bike ride away from where I am at this moment.
For a family to drive through on Larpenteur from place to place is perfectly normal. Bottom line before I ramble on too much: yes, there's no excuse for what happened. But I can tell you from a closer-in perspective as someone who lives here, who drives down that very street several times a week, there's REALLY no excuse for what happened, all the legitimate reasons that you may have already come up with as to why there's no excuse for this are not only correct, but they're put into very, very high focus by this.
There's a lot of things I could say. I might pop in later in an observation or two. I'll just say that I've been impressed by local BLM people, they're good people, and they've got a tough job ahead of themselves this morning.
posted by gimonca at 6:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
For a family to drive through on Larpenteur from place to place is perfectly normal. Bottom line before I ramble on too much: yes, there's no excuse for what happened. But I can tell you from a closer-in perspective as someone who lives here, who drives down that very street several times a week, there's REALLY no excuse for what happened, all the legitimate reasons that you may have already come up with as to why there's no excuse for this are not only correct, but they're put into very, very high focus by this.
There's a lot of things I could say. I might pop in later in an observation or two. I'll just say that I've been impressed by local BLM people, they're good people, and they've got a tough job ahead of themselves this morning.
posted by gimonca at 6:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
White kid walks into city hall tripping on shrooms? Wrestle with police, grab one of their guns, FIRE IT, still alive.
posted by Talez at 6:12 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Talez at 6:12 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
CNN has an interview with Philandro Castile's mother and uncle.
posted by prefpara at 6:15 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by prefpara at 6:15 AM on July 7, 2016
.
posted by clawsoon at 6:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 6:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Last night, before the Castillo info was being circulated, I posted simply (Insert Next) in this thread. It got deleted. I get why, but I hope it' is now clear that it is a statement, not a flippant shit post. It is not going to stop today either. Tomorrow, Saturday, next week, you're going to read another story that is similar.
posted by cashman at 6:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by cashman at 6:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
When police departments become extrajudicial killers, civilians shooting at law enforcement might actually become the best course of action.
I started having this line of wondering back during the Christopher Dorner manhunt, when cops shot the shit out of a couple of unrelated vehicles they thought -might- have been his without confirming their targets. All that's happened since then hasn't done much to make me feel more sanguine about the job they're doing.
posted by Archelaus at 6:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I started having this line of wondering back during the Christopher Dorner manhunt, when cops shot the shit out of a couple of unrelated vehicles they thought -might- have been his without confirming their targets. All that's happened since then hasn't done much to make me feel more sanguine about the job they're doing.
posted by Archelaus at 6:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
moonlight on vermont: Maybe go read some of the recent studies on the racial empathy gap if your knee jerk reaction to seeing black people in pain is "what if they go on a rampage".
I've heard a lot over the past couple of decades about police forces reaching out to minority communities so that the minority communities will not fear them. It seems like maybe the opposite needs to happen: Police officers need to learn not to fear members of minority communities. Yes, there are some officers killing coldly, for the fun of it, but it seems like in a few of the videos the officers are shaking with fear, their mind having instantly twisted the young black man in front of them into a killer thug demon who wants their blood.
(And I bet that happens with juries, too, and that's part of why there are so many acquittals. Young black man: Potential killer. Young black man with gun, permit or not: Killer. Must be killed in self-defense. Totally justified.)
Maybe we need some kind of program where police officers get to know young black men as people, so they're not so scared of them. I dunno how that would work. It would take too long, anyway, and something needs to happen sooner than that.
posted by clawsoon at 6:30 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
I've heard a lot over the past couple of decades about police forces reaching out to minority communities so that the minority communities will not fear them. It seems like maybe the opposite needs to happen: Police officers need to learn not to fear members of minority communities. Yes, there are some officers killing coldly, for the fun of it, but it seems like in a few of the videos the officers are shaking with fear, their mind having instantly twisted the young black man in front of them into a killer thug demon who wants their blood.
(And I bet that happens with juries, too, and that's part of why there are so many acquittals. Young black man: Potential killer. Young black man with gun, permit or not: Killer. Must be killed in self-defense. Totally justified.)
Maybe we need some kind of program where police officers get to know young black men as people, so they're not so scared of them. I dunno how that would work. It would take too long, anyway, and something needs to happen sooner than that.
posted by clawsoon at 6:30 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
I feel helpless so I can't even begin to imagine what POC feel like right now and always.
For me personally, it feels like that Farside cartoon, the one with a deer born with a target on its chest, which causes another deer to comment "Bummer of a birthmark Hal".
Except it's not funny, that birthmark just happens to be your skin and the cold hard fact is that it just might get you killed.
Recently I offered to help a co-worker with one of her stories by agreeing to go downtown and pick up a book. One of the people she interviewed had decided to just leave a book on their porch for the writer to swing by and grab whenever she could. After I offered to do that, since the writer was busy, there was a brief discussion about whether that was a good idea for me, the large black guy, to just go and pick up something off someone's porch, because...well, you know. There was little chance of anything happening, but isn't that always the case? The wrong move at the wrong time, can get a black person killed in America. It's just something you have to be aware of.
Nothing happened, this time.
My last interaction with police was on a sleepy Sunday morning at work. I had entered the wrong code when entering the building and the police had been silently notified. I was oblivious of all this, sitting at my desk, pointing and clicking on the computer. A knock on the window startled me and I looked up. I saw a policeman standing at the window and he pointed to the front door. I realized what had happened, silently cursed myself for typing in the wrong alarm code and went to the front door, which would leave me out of the cops sight for a few seconds. So I did the life math on how this could go down, reminded myself to use 'sir' and 'please' and generally control the situation while not fighting what might happen.
Nothing happened, this time.
The cops were polite and professional, reminding me to call the alarm company and be careful in the future, and then to have a nice day. Nothing happened, but you were probably tensing up as I described it. Because that's the reality, shit can bad in an instant.
I should go back over to the Juno thread, where it was lot of fun watching and celebrating humanity put a spacecraft in orbit around another planet. It was immensely enjoyable reading and participating in the thread and there's new information to share. But today...today I am distracted from examples of the best of humanity by examples of the worst of humanity, because it seems like something is always happening, at some time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [144 favorites]
For me personally, it feels like that Farside cartoon, the one with a deer born with a target on its chest, which causes another deer to comment "Bummer of a birthmark Hal".
Except it's not funny, that birthmark just happens to be your skin and the cold hard fact is that it just might get you killed.
Recently I offered to help a co-worker with one of her stories by agreeing to go downtown and pick up a book. One of the people she interviewed had decided to just leave a book on their porch for the writer to swing by and grab whenever she could. After I offered to do that, since the writer was busy, there was a brief discussion about whether that was a good idea for me, the large black guy, to just go and pick up something off someone's porch, because...well, you know. There was little chance of anything happening, but isn't that always the case? The wrong move at the wrong time, can get a black person killed in America. It's just something you have to be aware of.
Nothing happened, this time.
My last interaction with police was on a sleepy Sunday morning at work. I had entered the wrong code when entering the building and the police had been silently notified. I was oblivious of all this, sitting at my desk, pointing and clicking on the computer. A knock on the window startled me and I looked up. I saw a policeman standing at the window and he pointed to the front door. I realized what had happened, silently cursed myself for typing in the wrong alarm code and went to the front door, which would leave me out of the cops sight for a few seconds. So I did the life math on how this could go down, reminded myself to use 'sir' and 'please' and generally control the situation while not fighting what might happen.
Nothing happened, this time.
The cops were polite and professional, reminding me to call the alarm company and be careful in the future, and then to have a nice day. Nothing happened, but you were probably tensing up as I described it. Because that's the reality, shit can bad in an instant.
I should go back over to the Juno thread, where it was lot of fun watching and celebrating humanity put a spacecraft in orbit around another planet. It was immensely enjoyable reading and participating in the thread and there's new information to share. But today...today I am distracted from examples of the best of humanity by examples of the worst of humanity, because it seems like something is always happening, at some time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [144 favorites]
I wish that we didn't have to commodify police violence and share it over and over and turn death and violence into gifs to get white Americans to take notice. I can't imagine how traumatizing it is for black Americans to live with this fear on a day to day basis, and then watch these videos on twitter and facebook and CNN and Fox News. Watching videos of black men dying, over and over and over, further dehumanizes an already dehumanized group of people in the US. we weren't moved enough to do something after watching Tamir, Eric Garner. At what point does showing these videos over and over stop making a difference and just become exploitative?
posted by ChuraChura at 6:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 6:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The procedure for this must be to fire any police officer who kills someone. I don't care if the cop kills an actual murderer caught in the act of murdering someone who has his gun to the head of another person, it is not the job of the police to carry out capital punishment, and when they do, they have failed in their actual job of preventing crime or catching criminals. And that now-former police officer doesn't get a union lawyer or a job at the PBA "sweeping floors". He or she (ha) is immediately arrested and given a public defender and kept away from other cops until the trial, for murder. Let a jury decide whether it was a justified shooting, not a police review board that will be thinking What if it was me in this situation?
And even if it was a 100 percent justified shooting, that former cop doesn't get hired back. Let 'em find some other precinct that wants to deal with hiring a known killer of a fellow human being.
posted by Etrigan at 6:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
And even if it was a 100 percent justified shooting, that former cop doesn't get hired back. Let 'em find some other precinct that wants to deal with hiring a known killer of a fellow human being.
posted by Etrigan at 6:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
Mod note: Let's drop the debate on the desirability of counterviolence — I can't see it going anywhere good.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Maybe the solution is that brutalized minority groups should have to take up arms and violently overthrow the legal authorities in order to be treated as full-fledged human beings" is at best an ill-considered idea to put out there, and at worst more or less fanning the flames of "HE'S GOT A GUN! HE'S GOT A GUN!*" that's one of the primary causes of that brutalization.
(* not really, he's just black)
posted by tocts at 6:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
(* not really, he's just black)
posted by tocts at 6:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's a "macho or racist fantasy about hyperviolent black people", I think it's a clueless white person's reaction to
it's up to us clueless white people to realize that our reactions are tainted by racist ideas of the magical negro, even if we really think they aren't and that when we react by thinking black men should just go on a shooting spree, we're still engaging in fantasies about hyperviolent black people.
posted by nadawi at 6:36 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
it's up to us clueless white people to realize that our reactions are tainted by racist ideas of the magical negro, even if we really think they aren't and that when we react by thinking black men should just go on a shooting spree, we're still engaging in fantasies about hyperviolent black people.
posted by nadawi at 6:36 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
is lavisha reynolds out and safe? where is her daughter?
posted by nadawi at 6:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
U.S. Justice Department says it is "aware" of the police shooting death of #PhilandoCastile and is "assessing the situation.”
FWIW, the woman's name is Lavish Reyonlds, not Lavisha.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:46 AM on July 7, 2016
FWIW, the woman's name is Lavish Reyonlds, not Lavisha.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:46 AM on July 7, 2016
Nadawi, when twitter was calling the police department that took her in for questioning last night, they claimed to have released her at around 1AM Central Time. The woman I got ahold of said, "she's on her way home, she's on her own" and claimed she had never been detained or formally taken into custody and that being "interviewed" didn't qualify as either of those things. Reloading her name on twitter rn.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:46 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:46 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
FWIW, the woman's name is Lavish Reyonlds, not Lavisha.
It looks like "Lavish" is just her Facebook handle.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:47 AM on July 7, 2016
It looks like "Lavish" is just her Facebook handle.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:47 AM on July 7, 2016
via John Lewis, on Facebook: 55 yrs ago today I was released from Parchman Penitentiary after being arrested in Jackson for using a so-called "white" restroom.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
"Dangling" body cameras? I would love to see statistics about how many times body cams have been disabled in situations where they would be awfully useful in cases where police misconduct is suspected. My public defender partner, who works in just one small jurisdiction in this country, has some pretty damning anecdotal evidence about this.
I'm really glad that body cameras are becoming more common, but now we need strong law behind them to prevent this from happening. If it can be proven that an officer deliberately alters or prevents a body camera from working properly, they should be charged. If a body cam stops working or is lost for any reason at all, even truly accidental, the police department should be open to huge civil lawsuits.
posted by mayonnaises at 6:49 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm really glad that body cameras are becoming more common, but now we need strong law behind them to prevent this from happening. If it can be proven that an officer deliberately alters or prevents a body camera from working properly, they should be charged. If a body cam stops working or is lost for any reason at all, even truly accidental, the police department should be open to huge civil lawsuits.
posted by mayonnaises at 6:49 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't really understand how federal/state criminal law works in the US. In Canada all criminal law is federal; provinces have no jurisdiction to make criminal law. So somebody explain this to me...If I understand correctly, when a federal criminal law is broken, it's not the municipal or state police that investigate and not the state that prosecutes, right? It's the FBI and the US Attorney? This is my understanding based on TV.
And my understanding also, is that it's a FEDERAL crime to kill a police officer, yes? Is there a way to make it a federal crime to murder while on duty as a police officer? I realize that regulating the criminal is different from regulating the victim. In Canada you can't make something a crime for some people and not others based on particular characteristics gender/race/ethnicity etc. because of guarantees of "equality under the law" but I expect occupation/doing the occupation at the time of the crime would be ok. Is the set-up similar so a federal law like that would be possible?
If so, it seems like one thing that needs to happen here is that this needs to go federal and their needs to be an agency (maybe the FBI, maybe an agency formed for the purpose) to investigate every police shooting in the country. In Ontario there's a province-wide agency that investigates any time anyone is injured or killed when an office is present. The agency isn't affiliated with any police department. It's obviously not perfect, but it's better than having these things investigated (and having cops know they will be investigated) by people who are fundamentally/emotionallly on their side and pre-disposed to sharing their point of view before they even show up. And of course as long as "internal affairs" works for the PD in question, they have a conflict of interest, since it's in the interest of the PD to not seem corrupt, racist, or incompetent.
Can Obama set up a nation-wide investigation unit by executive order? Would it be (constitutionally) possible to make murder by police officers a federal crime? Would it be politically feasible to do so?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:51 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
And my understanding also, is that it's a FEDERAL crime to kill a police officer, yes? Is there a way to make it a federal crime to murder while on duty as a police officer? I realize that regulating the criminal is different from regulating the victim. In Canada you can't make something a crime for some people and not others based on particular characteristics gender/race/ethnicity etc. because of guarantees of "equality under the law" but I expect occupation/doing the occupation at the time of the crime would be ok. Is the set-up similar so a federal law like that would be possible?
If so, it seems like one thing that needs to happen here is that this needs to go federal and their needs to be an agency (maybe the FBI, maybe an agency formed for the purpose) to investigate every police shooting in the country. In Ontario there's a province-wide agency that investigates any time anyone is injured or killed when an office is present. The agency isn't affiliated with any police department. It's obviously not perfect, but it's better than having these things investigated (and having cops know they will be investigated) by people who are fundamentally/emotionallly on their side and pre-disposed to sharing their point of view before they even show up. And of course as long as "internal affairs" works for the PD in question, they have a conflict of interest, since it's in the interest of the PD to not seem corrupt, racist, or incompetent.
Can Obama set up a nation-wide investigation unit by executive order? Would it be (constitutionally) possible to make murder by police officers a federal crime? Would it be politically feasible to do so?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:51 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would support a presumption of guilt for a non-functioning or malfunctioning body camera. Or you can choose not to carry a gun. Either way.
posted by prefpara at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm really glad that body cameras are becoming more common, but now we need strong law behind them to prevent this from happening.
"If your body camera is not operating to a certain standard, for any reason whatsoever, you are not a police officer and are not entitled to any of the protections that the law and your union contract grant to police officers."
posted by Etrigan at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [32 favorites]
"If your body camera is not operating to a certain standard, for any reason whatsoever, you are not a police officer and are not entitled to any of the protections that the law and your union contract grant to police officers."
posted by Etrigan at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [32 favorites]
her name is also being reported as diamond, but some people are saying that's the name of the 4yr old who watched a cop kill her father.
and why was she being 'interviewed' for so many hours after she watched their colleague murder her partner?
i know some of these questions don't have answers, i'm just howling into the wind.
i wonder if any of the police involved threw out candy on the pride parade float...
posted by nadawi at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
and why was she being 'interviewed' for so many hours after she watched their colleague murder her partner?
i know some of these questions don't have answers, i'm just howling into the wind.
i wonder if any of the police involved threw out candy on the pride parade float...
posted by nadawi at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I often wonder why there isn't a racial justice legal taskforce, funded by IDK the NAACP? A group of lawyers, researchers, and PR folks whose only job is to immediately activate and descend on these situations, guaranteeing that the victims and their families get absolutely fucking stellar legal representation immediately, seasoned advocacy for media management, and a oppositional research team to counter the sorts of extra-legal moves ("taking" private surveillance video, "detaining" witnesses, "leaking" criminal records of victims) police departments inevitably make in these situations. If police and the governmental organizations knew that every time a questionable killing or other travesty occurred, they would be facing a professional organization with pockets deep enough to make absolutely sure that justice was served, regardless of time, cost, and trouble, rather than a scattered rag-tag and usually ineffective protest movement, you might see some reforms.
posted by Chrischris at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Chrischris at 6:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
If your body camera is not operating to a certain standard, for any reason whatsoever, you are not a police officer and are not entitled to any of the protections that the law and your union contract grant to police officers."
So if a criminal blocks or breaks the camera of an officer before murdering them, it's just regular murder and not killing a peace officer?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:53 AM on July 7, 2016
So if a criminal blocks or breaks the camera of an officer before murdering them, it's just regular murder and not killing a peace officer?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:53 AM on July 7, 2016
So if a criminal blocks or breaks the camera of an officer before murdering them, it's just regular murder and not killing a peace officer?
Yes, that will certainly happen in our comic-book world of criminals who make and adhere to really good plans.
And frankly, laws that supercriminalize killing police officers aren't helping.
posted by Etrigan at 6:55 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Yes, that will certainly happen in our comic-book world of criminals who make and adhere to really good plans.
And frankly, laws that supercriminalize killing police officers aren't helping.
posted by Etrigan at 6:55 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
So if a criminal blocks or breaks the camera of an officer before murdering them, it's just regular murder and not killing a peace officer?
Sorry, forgot my other sarcastic answer:
You're right. Police equipment should be based largely on the worst-case scenario of what a criminal might do with it. So why do they carry guns?
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Sorry, forgot my other sarcastic answer:
You're right. Police equipment should be based largely on the worst-case scenario of what a criminal might do with it. So why do they carry guns?
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Louisiana just enacted a "Blue Lives Matter" law
I just can't understand the fuckery behind people who see footage of a black man being executed by police and their first thought is for the feelings of other cops who might overhear us discussing it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:00 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I just can't understand the fuckery behind people who see footage of a black man being executed by police and their first thought is for the feelings of other cops who might overhear us discussing it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:00 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops
posted by Artw at 7:00 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:00 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
And frankly, laws that supercriminalize killing police officers aren't helping.
Yeah, right after I posted that, I thought to ask myself why killing a cop should be a crime different from killing anyone else. I did not come up with any particularly good answer.
But I don't think it's crazy to think any law like that should be strict liability (prove you didn't mess with it and made every effort to keep it operational) rather than absolute liability (even if you were frantically trying to repair the camera that was damaged by a freak meteor strike to your chest, too bad for you!). I don't think that's basing it on the worst thing a criminal might do, I think it's just applying consistent standards of intent across different laws.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:01 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, right after I posted that, I thought to ask myself why killing a cop should be a crime different from killing anyone else. I did not come up with any particularly good answer.
But I don't think it's crazy to think any law like that should be strict liability (prove you didn't mess with it and made every effort to keep it operational) rather than absolute liability (even if you were frantically trying to repair the camera that was damaged by a freak meteor strike to your chest, too bad for you!). I don't think that's basing it on the worst thing a criminal might do, I think it's just applying consistent standards of intent across different laws.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:01 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Diamond "Lavish" Reynolds is speaking to a crowd in front of the Governor's mansion in Saint Paul MN right now. IDK if her daughter is with her, but she's out of police custody.
https://twitter.com/ShaymusKM/status/751053704002953216
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:05 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
https://twitter.com/ShaymusKM/status/751053704002953216
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:05 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
More from the Washington Post, adding to what roomthreeseventeen posted above: "...an organized group that specifically seeks out violent crimes using police scanners with the intention of filming them, not for the purpose of exposing police but to deter young people from crime."
That's an interesting reason.
posted by clawsoon at 7:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's an interesting reason.
posted by clawsoon at 7:07 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
"That was my best friend. I don't have anybody in Minnesota." -Reynolds
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd also like to see a prosecutorial discretion override for "police-involved shootings." Make them explain it to a jury.
posted by prefpara at 7:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 7:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Killing a police officer is already more severely punished than killing an ordinary citizen. The purpose of "Blue Lives Matter" laws is to extend a middle finger to BLM by twisting hate crime law into a statement of support for cops.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:10 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:10 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
"I was not released until 5 this morning. They took him 9 days before his birthday, it's night right, he took his last breath in front of us, they asked for his ID and before he got it out they shot him. I was taken to jail and separated me from my daughter. They didn't give me food or water. They tried to blame us. We followed procedure, and they shot him 5 times. They took my phone and threw it and had machine guns at my back. They took my lifeline. That was my best friend. I don't have anyone else. My daughter told me to be calm, that I will be okay, I held it together for her. "- diamond reynolds speaking now
posted by nadawi at 7:11 AM on July 7, 2016 [50 favorites]
There's FB live video of her speaking. https://www.facebook.com/100002471166595/videos/1057539947671701/
posted by Mavri at 7:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mavri at 7:17 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I live a few blocks away. I don't know what to feel right now.
.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Although I've been outraged by these racist police murders, and had a supportive position towards Black Lives Matter, I also had very much the luxury, as a white American, of also thinking of this of something far away from me. However, this morning that bubble has closed in a little when I read about the murder of Philandro Castile, who was the nephew-in-law of one of the people I've known longest in my life, the son of a wonderful family who i grew up next to in St. Anthony Park, St. Paul. Ages ago, the neighbor and I attended St. Paul Central, as Mr. Castile did much more recently. My heart is breaking for my neighbor and his family.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [34 favorites]
Philando Castile's mom: 'We are being hunted'
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't stop thinking about where that little girl spent the night, or who she was with.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:27 AM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:27 AM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
I'm watching Diamond speaking live, it's unbearable to watch someone in so much pain. At around 5 minutes into that video she starts talking about how the police kept her for 4 hours after they were telling people she'd been released. When I spoke with the department on the phone there was a young woman on the other end of the line who could not have been more flippant, I could hear her fucking eyes rolling when she said "Oh I know who you mean" in response to "Diamond or Lavish" and when she said "she's on her own." Yeah, guess she was on her own. Kept in the station without food or water, separated from her little girl. How can you be so smug in the face of that kind of agony.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:29 AM on July 7, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:29 AM on July 7, 2016 [32 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted; please don't bring stuff here from other venues just to show how offensive it is.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am disgusted by the effort to smear every murder victim. As if any of the muck they find or invent could justify these killings.
posted by prefpara at 7:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 7:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
If people could shoot Tamir Rice and defend the shooting, christ could come down from the cross to bear witness for Philandro Castile and it would make no difference, because what drives people is not the desire to find out what happened but to feel good about violence done against a vulnerable person.
posted by Frowner at 7:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [37 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 7:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [37 favorites]
For My Son, In The Event The Police Leave You Fatherless
But in case the police to take me away from you forever, I want you to know some things. If I encounter police just know that I didn’t reach for their gun. I didn’t try to fight them. I didn’t resist arrest. I wasn’t a clear and present danger. Just know that if I’m approached by police, I’ll be thinking about you and your mother and your sister and how much I want to survive to be home and see you. As soon as the officer approaches me, I’ll wonder if I’ll ever see you again. I’ll want to fight or run but I know that’ll only increase the chances of you sobbing in front of cameras that don’t give a damn about how you’re feeling.posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [36 favorites]
In the immediate days after my death, you will see pictures of me from college in baggy clothes, maybe with a drink in my hand. You will see old tweets where I made an off-color comment. You will see the media portray someone who seems like a complete stranger. Because he is. You know your father. Better than they do. You will know me and the man I am. Remember me as that man and not the one you see in the news reports that are used to make police look justified in their actions.
Goddammit.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 7:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Diamond Reynolds is an incredibly admirably strong woman.
This is all so heartbreaking. murphy slaw's Twitter link of things to do seems like a good start. I'm not going to sit back and do nothing any longer, even though it feels like anything I can do will have absolutely no effect. This police bullshit has to stop.
posted by Fig at 7:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is all so heartbreaking. murphy slaw's Twitter link of things to do seems like a good start. I'm not going to sit back and do nothing any longer, even though it feels like anything I can do will have absolutely no effect. This police bullshit has to stop.
posted by Fig at 7:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The lies about victims of violence will never stop, because it's one of the ways certain parties convince themselves that they live in a just and orderly world where they're better than those people.
It's shameful, but it's apparently also cultural. If anyone has any suggestions on changing it, I'm keen to hear 'em, because my alternative seems to be screaming myself hoarse at idiocy, and that starts to wear on a body.
posted by Archelaus at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's shameful, but it's apparently also cultural. If anyone has any suggestions on changing it, I'm keen to hear 'em, because my alternative seems to be screaming myself hoarse at idiocy, and that starts to wear on a body.
posted by Archelaus at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Christ was a dangerous gang leader who was inciting mob violence. Don't let the liberal media fool you into thinking his crucifixion was unjustified.
posted by prefpara at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Seen on Twitter:
Shooting up a gay club: Everybody should be able to carry a gun! #AltonSterling murdered by cop: Welp, he shouldn't be carrying a gun! — @JenniDigital July 6, 2016posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
Two calls to disarm the police from an evangelical and an atheist.
Fred Clark: The gun undermines the badge:
Fred Clark: The gun undermines the badge:
If American police derived their authority from badge or from office — from the rule of law or even merely of order — then we would expect them to be a reliable, trustworthy, concerned source of information about citizens killed by police. We would expect them to have some interest in such numbers — to care about them — if only as a matter of tradecraft.PZ Myers: Disarm the police:
But because American police have sidelined badge and office, relying instead on the gun as the source of their authority, they have little interest in tracking this. They care about such reporting only to the extent that they view such efforts as a threat — as a challenge to their primary source of authority.
All those policemen patrolling the streets, looking for parking infractions or speeders or jaywalkers…they don’t need guns to do their job. Given that many of them are turning out to be bullying cowards, having a gun is even a detriment to their role of defending the law and the public peace.posted by palindromic at 7:45 AM on July 7, 2016 [49 favorites]
So disarm them. Keep a few weapons back in the police station that can be issued to deal with specific situations in which they are necessary, but for the most part, guns are totally inappropriate for the job at hand. This would have a number of beneficial effects. For one, the swaggering assholes who need their firearm to be tough would quit, and good riddance to them. For another, the police would actually have to take non-violent approaches to confrontations seriously. Maybe they’d live up to the title of “peace officer”.
What his mother said:
she rushed to the scene, but was kept from reaching her son’s side. “I didn’t want my son to die alone,” she said. “I didn’t want to talk to anyone — I just wanted to get to my son, because I didn’t want my son to die alone.”
She also said she hasn’t been able to identify or claim her son’s body yet: “They didn’t let me see my son’s body, at all. I have not identified my son’s body because they wouldn’t let me.”
posted by prefpara at 7:45 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
she rushed to the scene, but was kept from reaching her son’s side. “I didn’t want my son to die alone,” she said. “I didn’t want to talk to anyone — I just wanted to get to my son, because I didn’t want my son to die alone.”
She also said she hasn’t been able to identify or claim her son’s body yet: “They didn’t let me see my son’s body, at all. I have not identified my son’s body because they wouldn’t let me.”
posted by prefpara at 7:45 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I went over to Free Republic to see the reaction there. There's plenty of vile racism, even more denial of racism, and a couple of conspiracy theories, as expected, but I was surprised at the amount of, "This was wrong, nobody deserves to be shot like this, we conservatives can't support this."
The videos do make a difference.
posted by clawsoon at 7:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
The videos do make a difference.
posted by clawsoon at 7:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
You guys speculating about black people committing violence against cops -- you realize that's exactly the sort of talk that gets cops so amped up and ready to shoot every black man they stop on the streets, right?
Maybe that sort of thing isn't terribly helpful right now or ever?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [36 favorites]
Maybe that sort of thing isn't terribly helpful right now or ever?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [36 favorites]
can we not bring over what the freepers are saying??
posted by nadawi at 7:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
What bothers me more is that news organizations keep on replaying this over and over. It's another way of dehumanizing him. Only video of black people getting shot is acceptable to glorify.
During times like this as a black person, I just need to stop watching all media.
posted by 81818181818181818181 at 7:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
During times like this as a black person, I just need to stop watching all media.
posted by 81818181818181818181 at 7:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
This is a great opportunity to call out the NRA and its supporters, conservative and otherwise. Because if the AREN'T racist, they should be SCREAMING about two lawful gun owners executed for exercising their right to carry in perfectly legitimate fashion.
posted by msalt at 7:54 AM on July 7, 2016 [62 favorites]
posted by msalt at 7:54 AM on July 7, 2016 [62 favorites]
Apparently there is now a second video that shows there was no gun?
posted by Artw at 7:55 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by Artw at 7:55 AM on July 7, 2016
Am I Going to Write About Murdered Black People Forever?
In the time it took me to write about one fatal police shooting, another occurred.posted by Etrigan at 7:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
> You guys speculating about black people committing violence against cops -- you realize that's exactly the sort of talk that gets cops so amped up and ready to shoot every black man they stop on the streets, right?
Cops get amped over a Beyonce video because it was "hate speech" and there were calls from multiple PBAs for off-duty officers to refuse to volunteer to work security on her shows. So while I don't think that the comments here are necessarily constructive, the reason not to make them is not "because it might make cops more prone to violence." They don't need an excuse.
posted by rtha at 8:00 AM on July 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
Cops get amped over a Beyonce video because it was "hate speech" and there were calls from multiple PBAs for off-duty officers to refuse to volunteer to work security on her shows. So while I don't think that the comments here are necessarily constructive, the reason not to make them is not "because it might make cops more prone to violence." They don't need an excuse.
posted by rtha at 8:00 AM on July 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
In the time it took me to write about one fatal police shooting, another occurred.
God DAMN.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:01 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
God DAMN.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:01 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I did some horrifying research recently. In The Troubles in Northern Ireland where Britain was using the literal army to keep order, the army killed 363 people over the course of 30 years. So far, just over half way through 2016, the US Police have killed 560 people. OK, so the figures aren't directly comparable and Northern Ireland is 1.8 million rather than 300 million.
But let me just repeat. Over the course of a 30 year campaign of terrorism and paramilitary violence the British Army killed far fewer than two thirds of the people the US Police have in six months and one week.
posted by Francis at 8:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [37 favorites]
But let me just repeat. Over the course of a 30 year campaign of terrorism and paramilitary violence the British Army killed far fewer than two thirds of the people the US Police have in six months and one week.
posted by Francis at 8:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [37 favorites]
Apparently there is now a second video that shows there was no gun?
Yeah, the store keeper's cell phone video seems to show he never had a gun in his hand. At most/worst, there's a bit at the end where the police might be removing a gun from his pocket he'd never even motioned toward.
You can find the video by searching for Alton Sterling second angle, but I just can't link to that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:04 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the store keeper's cell phone video seems to show he never had a gun in his hand. At most/worst, there's a bit at the end where the police might be removing a gun from his pocket he'd never even motioned toward.
You can find the video by searching for Alton Sterling second angle, but I just can't link to that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:04 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Damon Young: America, the Beautiful Fucking Joke:
It’s never been more obvious that America is a fucking farce. That “America” is actually a Mel Brooks-produced and directed depiction of America called America, where the crimes levied against Black people get increasingly and comically more graphic and more harrowing and more perplexing while we collectively attempt to find new ways to ignore or excuse them. Yesterday it was a man selling DVDs restrained by two police officers and shot by another. Last night it was a man in a car with his girlfriend and his girlfriend’s daughter murdered after doing, again, exactly what the officer asked him to do. What will it be tomorrow? A firing squad gunning a Charlotte grandmother down while she’s leaving Trader Joe’s? A 17-year-old honor student on his way to work rammed and impaled by a police cruiser? A pregnant school principle flayed alive by a group of plain clothed detectives who believed she was hiding weapons and weed in her skin?posted by palindromic at 8:05 AM on July 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
I often wonder why there isn't a racial justice legal taskforce, funded by IDK the NAACP? A group of lawyers, researchers, and PR folks whose only job is to immediately activate and descend on these situations, guaranteeing that the victims and their families get absolutely fucking stellar legal representation immediately, seasoned advocacy for media management, and a oppositional research team to counter the sorts of extra-legal moves ("taking" private surveillance video, "detaining" witnesses, "leaking" criminal records of victims) police departments inevitably make in these situations. If police and the governmental organizations knew that every time a questionable killing or other travesty occurred, they would be facing a professional organization with pockets deep enough to make absolutely sure that justice was served, regardless of time, cost, and trouble, rather than a scattered rag-tag and usually ineffective protest movement, you might see some reforms.
Because no one should have to use their private funds and personal time to cajole the justice system into justness? Right now these cops, prosecutors, judges, and juries are not doing their jobs and upholding their responsibilities. That should be on them, not the rest of us.
That being said, if you're interested in this topic you might want to look into the work of Benjamin Crump and his law firm, who handle a lot of the civil cases related to this. You might also be interested in the way antitrust law functions - because violations in federal antitrust law can be difficult to detect, investigate, and prosecute, civil penalties (such as those handed down in class action litigation by private parties) are trebled (x 3), creating an incentive for private plaintiffs to sue, effectively enforcing the antitrust laws as "private attorneys general." On the other hand, civil and criminal actions against the police are intentionally hampered by disincentives such as the prior case law on what justifies the use of deadly force and broad protections for officers who were acting on the job (loosely defined).
posted by sallybrown at 8:14 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Because no one should have to use their private funds and personal time to cajole the justice system into justness? Right now these cops, prosecutors, judges, and juries are not doing their jobs and upholding their responsibilities. That should be on them, not the rest of us.
That being said, if you're interested in this topic you might want to look into the work of Benjamin Crump and his law firm, who handle a lot of the civil cases related to this. You might also be interested in the way antitrust law functions - because violations in federal antitrust law can be difficult to detect, investigate, and prosecute, civil penalties (such as those handed down in class action litigation by private parties) are trebled (x 3), creating an incentive for private plaintiffs to sue, effectively enforcing the antitrust laws as "private attorneys general." On the other hand, civil and criminal actions against the police are intentionally hampered by disincentives such as the prior case law on what justifies the use of deadly force and broad protections for officers who were acting on the job (loosely defined).
posted by sallybrown at 8:14 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I often wonder why there isn't a racial justice legal taskforce, funded by IDK the NAACP?
Yeah, hey minorities, why aren't you doing more doesn't really seem to be helpful though.
posted by zutalors! at 8:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
Yeah, hey minorities, why aren't you doing more doesn't really seem to be helpful though.
posted by zutalors! at 8:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
I will admit, I also have wondered when the violence against police is really going to start (especially after watching Malcolm X a few weeks ago). But the thing is, asking minorities to violently fight for the right not to be killed will not help unless white people fight in significant numbers too. Just laying it all on the minority groups does not help at all, and only gives police and racists more of an excuse to fear/abuse them.
Its the decades long debate about who was right, MLK or Malcolm X? Maybe it's not all one or the other but bits of both.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Its the decades long debate about who was right, MLK or Malcolm X? Maybe it's not all one or the other but bits of both.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Linked in the Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops article is this report by Amnesty International, which has chilled me right to my core.
All 50 states and Washington DC fail to comply with international law and standards on the use of lethal force by law enforcement officers;
Nine states and Washington DC currently have no laws on use of lethal force by law enforcement officers;
Thirteen states have laws that do not even comply with the lower standards set by US constitutional law on use of lethal force by law enforcement officers.
My state (Ohio) has no law on the use of lethal force. It's terrifying to see the state name and flag up in the corner of the page and a big, fat NO LAW right in the center. Fucking terrifying.
posted by cooker girl at 8:27 AM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
All 50 states and Washington DC fail to comply with international law and standards on the use of lethal force by law enforcement officers;
Nine states and Washington DC currently have no laws on use of lethal force by law enforcement officers;
Thirteen states have laws that do not even comply with the lower standards set by US constitutional law on use of lethal force by law enforcement officers.
My state (Ohio) has no law on the use of lethal force. It's terrifying to see the state name and flag up in the corner of the page and a big, fat NO LAW right in the center. Fucking terrifying.
posted by cooker girl at 8:27 AM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
My great-great-grandfather was a slave and through fortune and toil and pain and scorn our family clawed its way out of this most brutal and demeaning of lives. We won. They lost. But there is no justice. No justice. They lost, but they slaughter, and slaughter, and slaughter. No matter. We will cry and fight, and we will win.
posted by dmh at 8:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by dmh at 8:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [44 favorites]
I will admit, I also have wondered when the violence against police is really going to start (especially after watching Malcolm X a few weeks ago)
It'll start when large numbers of white people are afraid of the police. Which'll happen when/if white people are small minority in America, about 30% or less, I'd guess.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
It'll start when large numbers of white people are afraid of the police. Which'll happen when/if white people are small minority in America, about 30% or less, I'd guess.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's a lot of legal taskforces nationwide that work on this stuff, often funded by groups like the NAACP. There's a lot of volunteers who work on this stuff for free. People do a lot of very boring, very policy-driven work but it is largely invisible. Around here, Black Lives Matter has been one of the groups which works on getting people to hearings and getting them to pack city council meetings, etc. BLM actually has won a few little victories locally, although my head hurts from getting to bed so late and I can't think of specifics, only of the fact that I found them heartening.
In re picking up the gun: such gun control laws as we have started getting support because black people were arming themselves. There's been all kinds of Black self defense organizations and individual community members and activists who have stood off lynch mobs, etc. Consider what happened to the Black Panthers. Being a white person, I don't know whether that way is blocked, but I do know that the state smashes down very, very hard on any kind of Black militancy, never mind armed kinds.
It feels like that movie whose name escapes me because of the tiredness where half the population is really evil aliens but you can only see them with the special glasses - half the white population (or more, god knows) is walking around thinking that this is perfectly okay and everything is fine.
If you twist the kaleidoscope it's like American history is actually revealed as a horror movie with monsters everywhere and the worst ending. Genocide, slavocracy, Jim Crow, lynching, police murders.
posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
In re picking up the gun: such gun control laws as we have started getting support because black people were arming themselves. There's been all kinds of Black self defense organizations and individual community members and activists who have stood off lynch mobs, etc. Consider what happened to the Black Panthers. Being a white person, I don't know whether that way is blocked, but I do know that the state smashes down very, very hard on any kind of Black militancy, never mind armed kinds.
It feels like that movie whose name escapes me because of the tiredness where half the population is really evil aliens but you can only see them with the special glasses - half the white population (or more, god knows) is walking around thinking that this is perfectly okay and everything is fine.
If you twist the kaleidoscope it's like American history is actually revealed as a horror movie with monsters everywhere and the worst ending. Genocide, slavocracy, Jim Crow, lynching, police murders.
posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
Linked in the Why American Cops Kill So Many Compared To European Cops article is this report by Amnesty International, which has chilled me right to my core.
There are all sorts of things that are under state jurisdiction in the US that the federal government forces the states' hands on, usually by the threat to withhold money. (e.g. the drinking age is 21 in ever state because otherwise states would lose highway funding, is my understanding). Can the federal government force appropriate use of force statutes to be passed by the same means? Allow force only to prevent imminent loss of life or serious injury or we don't fund [thing rich and middle class people like and have subsidized but like to imagine they built themselves. How about not allowing the mortgage interest tax deduction in states without use of force laws?]
It seems to obvious to me that the next move here belongs to the federal government because no one else can effectively do anything, but I don't understand well enough what's within their powers to know what they should do. A congressional inquiry seems like the very least. If congress can trouble itself with PEDs in baseball, surely this is more important.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are all sorts of things that are under state jurisdiction in the US that the federal government forces the states' hands on, usually by the threat to withhold money. (e.g. the drinking age is 21 in ever state because otherwise states would lose highway funding, is my understanding). Can the federal government force appropriate use of force statutes to be passed by the same means? Allow force only to prevent imminent loss of life or serious injury or we don't fund [thing rich and middle class people like and have subsidized but like to imagine they built themselves. How about not allowing the mortgage interest tax deduction in states without use of force laws?]
It seems to obvious to me that the next move here belongs to the federal government because no one else can effectively do anything, but I don't understand well enough what's within their powers to know what they should do. A congressional inquiry seems like the very least. If congress can trouble itself with PEDs in baseball, surely this is more important.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
A reminder that this is not black people's problem to solve. This is white people's, and white people's alone. You benefit from white supremacy whether you speak up or not, but if you are silent, you are complacent. What do you imagine you would have done as an ordinary German citizen during Nazi rule? This is genocide, just slower and less organized.
I had a difficult conversation with my conservative father after Mike Brown and Eric Garner. He reflexively believed that because he'd always been treated with respect, that cops must be good, that the victims must have deserved it. I felt my blood pressure rising, but I stayed calm and talked it through. I had to step way back from the immediate events and talk about poverty, the prison-industrial complex, the breakdown of the family, etc in order to give context to systemic racism. He's still no liberal, but he's stopped automatically giving the benefit of the doubt to the police. It can be done.
posted by AFABulous at 8:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [49 favorites]
I had a difficult conversation with my conservative father after Mike Brown and Eric Garner. He reflexively believed that because he'd always been treated with respect, that cops must be good, that the victims must have deserved it. I felt my blood pressure rising, but I stayed calm and talked it through. I had to step way back from the immediate events and talk about poverty, the prison-industrial complex, the breakdown of the family, etc in order to give context to systemic racism. He's still no liberal, but he's stopped automatically giving the benefit of the doubt to the police. It can be done.
posted by AFABulous at 8:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [49 favorites]
No words. Please tell me what to say. I have no words...
.
.
posted by haiku warrior at 8:38 AM on July 7, 2016
.
.
posted by haiku warrior at 8:38 AM on July 7, 2016
Man who filmed Eric Garner police chokehold death video to take plea deal in Staten Island weapons, drug case : He still feels he's a law enforcement target and has claimed that someone put rat pesticides in his food at Rikers Island so he’ll be taking precautions upstate by sticking to packaged commissary goods.
“I’m not going to eat the food that’s being provided," he said. “Hopefully I can raise enough money.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
“I’m not going to eat the food that’s being provided," he said. “Hopefully I can raise enough money.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It'll start when large numbers of white people are afraid of the police.
For now, though, they can put hands on their open-carried weapon to threaten someone burning a flag of slave-owning traitors and get nothing but a "hey, now, cool it off" in response.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
For now, though, they can put hands on their open-carried weapon to threaten someone burning a flag of slave-owning traitors and get nothing but a "hey, now, cool it off" in response.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
It feels like that movie whose name escapes me because of the tiredness where half the population is really evil aliens but you can only see them with the special glasses
They Live
posted by Etrigan at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
They Live
posted by Etrigan at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can anyone shed light on what statute(s) allowed the police to hold Lavish? It doesn't seem like she was suspected of any crime so why are the police able to detain her or is it more like she doesn't have the legal pull to demand to be let go and is probably too emotionally distraught to demand it?
posted by nakedmolerats at 8:40 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 8:40 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nakedmolerats, I don't think anything about that detention was legal. If you search twitter for her name (either Lavish or Diamond) there are a ton of people who called in while she was being held last night who had those conversations recorded and put up transcripts were the police are straight up lying. "She's been released. She was not detained." "Are you aware you're giving a statement right now?" Not legal, lying on record, don't care.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:45 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:45 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
so far the cops are claiming she was being interviewed. of course they also claim they let her out at 1am, even though she wasn't out until 5am. they also separated her from her daughter and didn't give her any food or water. my guess is there's some hand waving way to define it as something other than being detained and kidnapping her child because cops are above the law.
posted by nadawi at 8:45 AM on July 7, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:45 AM on July 7, 2016 [31 favorites]
It seems to obvious to me that the next move here belongs to the federal government because no one else can effectively do anything, but I don't understand well enough what's within their powers to know what they should do. A congressional inquiry seems like the very least. If congress can trouble itself with PEDs in baseball, surely this is more important.
From the Amnesty International Report:
There is no federal statute governing the use of lethal force in the United States. The use of lethal force is governed by individual state statutes and US common law. The US Supreme Court has ruled that lethal force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent escape of someone where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm or where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. In Tennessee v. Garner, the Court held that Tennessee’s statute was unconstitutional, noting that “Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so … A police officer may not seize an unarmed, non-dangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects.”80 In a second case, Graham v. Connor, the US Supreme Court established the standard by which a jury is to judge an officer’s actions in the use of force – namely whether an officer’s actions were “objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them” and that the “reasonableness” of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a “reasonable officer on the scene."
posted by cooker girl at 8:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
From the Amnesty International Report:
There is no federal statute governing the use of lethal force in the United States. The use of lethal force is governed by individual state statutes and US common law. The US Supreme Court has ruled that lethal force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent escape of someone where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm or where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. In Tennessee v. Garner, the Court held that Tennessee’s statute was unconstitutional, noting that “Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so … A police officer may not seize an unarmed, non-dangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects.”80 In a second case, Graham v. Connor, the US Supreme Court established the standard by which a jury is to judge an officer’s actions in the use of force – namely whether an officer’s actions were “objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them” and that the “reasonableness” of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a “reasonable officer on the scene."
posted by cooker girl at 8:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
"That was something we always discussed: comply," Valerie Castille told CNN. "That's the key thing — the key thing in order to try to survive being stopped by the police, is to comply. Whatever they ask you to do, do it. Don't say nothing. Just do whatever they want you to do. So what's the difference in complying, and you get killed anyway?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Sure, I saw that Cooker Girl, but it's not self-evident that "there's no federal statute" means "there cannot be a federal statute" and even if there cannot be a federal statute, that doesn't mean the federal government can't de facto force states to pass laws that say particular things. If they can do it with the drinking age (where every state has passed laws saying it must be 21 because the federal government threatened them into doing so), it seems like they could do it for use of force.
Of course the will would have to be there and many of those politicians don't care and represent people who also don't care. So is there a way to create change or force states' hands by executive order?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:58 AM on July 7, 2016
Of course the will would have to be there and many of those politicians don't care and represent people who also don't care. So is there a way to create change or force states' hands by executive order?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:58 AM on July 7, 2016
Well, the Senate won't even have meetings to vet a pretty uncontroversial Supreme Court Justice. So....
posted by cooker girl at 9:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 9:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
What the fuck is up with the responses to @lilisolomon's tweet? I just...woah.
Definitely don't read the comments on the GoFundMe page linked above, either.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:06 AM on July 7, 2016
Definitely don't read the comments on the GoFundMe page linked above, either.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:06 AM on July 7, 2016
congress is too busy holding hearings on benghazi, hillary's emails, and considering 'religious freedom' bills. they'll get to the state sanctioned murder somewhere on the other side of never.
posted by nadawi at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
Police have killed 561 people in the US this year, 286 (51%) of whom were non-white (136 Black, 86 Latino); 82 of those 561 were completely unarmed. This does not include non-fatal police shootings. In 2015, 1146 people were killed by police, of whom 565 were non-white (306 Black, 195 Latino); 229 of those 1146 were completely unarmed (and of the 860 armed, 554 -- less than half of those killed -- had a gun).
I don't even know what 1707 dots looks like.
By contrast, 21 police officers have been fatally shot in the line of duty this year (of 53 total line-of-duty deaths, which also includes accidents); 39 last year. I am not sure how many encounters between cops & civilians there have been since 1 Jan 2015, but that number of encounters is the common denominator for both, and on a per-encounter basis, it looks like the civilians have... let's see, (1707/X)/(60/X)=28.4 ... civilians have nearly thirty times the risk of being shot per police encounter than the police do.
posted by Westringia F. at 9:12 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I don't even know what 1707 dots looks like.
By contrast, 21 police officers have been fatally shot in the line of duty this year (of 53 total line-of-duty deaths, which also includes accidents); 39 last year. I am not sure how many encounters between cops & civilians there have been since 1 Jan 2015, but that number of encounters is the common denominator for both, and on a per-encounter basis, it looks like the civilians have... let's see, (1707/X)/(60/X)=28.4 ... civilians have nearly thirty times the risk of being shot per police encounter than the police do.
posted by Westringia F. at 9:12 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I guess I'm trying to understand what the structural solution here is. This is obviously a structural problem. The cops who do the killing should go to prison, but sending those individual cops to prison won't do much to change the structure. Sending cops to prison consistently would make a big difference, but again, that's not going to happen under the current structure.
It seems like agitating to send this cop to prison or that cop to prison is good and important, but not something that could solve the problem even if successful. The target of protests needs to be the structure. The demands need to be for changes to the structure, not just demands that individual cops be charged. So what are the structural changes that people should be demanding?
I've suggested a couple ( A) A federal agency responsible for investigating deaths and serious injuries involving police and federal prosecutions of police B) Statutes allowing force to be used only in cases of imminent danger to life (passed by either state or federal, forced by federal if necessary)) I'll throw another out there: Psychological (in the academic psychology department sense, not the clinical psychology sense) of police recruits to determine if they are scared of minorities. Disqualify those who are. I'm thinking of testing along the lines of the implicit association test.
These are ideas I'm throwing out there, admittedly as a person who has no firsts hand experience of the problem and with only limited knowledge of the US legal system, so I'm not saying "This is absolutely what must be done." I'm saying that I think those kinds of structural changes (not necessarily those specific ones) need to be on the list of demands that people make to change things. Charging individual cops is important and it needs to be done both for the sake of justice for the individuals killed and their families. But it's not enough. The ultimate goal of the movement should not be to make sure cops who kill people needlessly go to jail, but to change things so cops don't kill people needlessly. So I hope that there will be a transition towards demands aimed at reaching that ultimate goal.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It seems like agitating to send this cop to prison or that cop to prison is good and important, but not something that could solve the problem even if successful. The target of protests needs to be the structure. The demands need to be for changes to the structure, not just demands that individual cops be charged. So what are the structural changes that people should be demanding?
I've suggested a couple ( A) A federal agency responsible for investigating deaths and serious injuries involving police and federal prosecutions of police B) Statutes allowing force to be used only in cases of imminent danger to life (passed by either state or federal, forced by federal if necessary)) I'll throw another out there: Psychological (in the academic psychology department sense, not the clinical psychology sense) of police recruits to determine if they are scared of minorities. Disqualify those who are. I'm thinking of testing along the lines of the implicit association test.
These are ideas I'm throwing out there, admittedly as a person who has no firsts hand experience of the problem and with only limited knowledge of the US legal system, so I'm not saying "This is absolutely what must be done." I'm saying that I think those kinds of structural changes (not necessarily those specific ones) need to be on the list of demands that people make to change things. Charging individual cops is important and it needs to be done both for the sake of justice for the individuals killed and their families. But it's not enough. The ultimate goal of the movement should not be to make sure cops who kill people needlessly go to jail, but to change things so cops don't kill people needlessly. So I hope that there will be a transition towards demands aimed at reaching that ultimate goal.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just realized I said the same thing like 5 times (yes, cops need to be charged). Sorry. I guess I'm worried that people might misinterpret and think I'm saying "forget the cops, look at this instead." which is not what I'm saying.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:19 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:19 AM on July 7, 2016
I don't even know what 1707 dots looks like.
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One for every person killed by a cop since the beginning of 2015.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
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One for every person killed by a cop since the beginning of 2015.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
It seems like agitating to send this cop to prison or that cop to prison is good and important, but not something that could solve the problem even if successful
But this hasn't happened at all. They haven't sent the cops to prison at all. Except that one who's Asian.
posted by zutalors! at 9:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Huh. Dylan Roof gets Burger King. Lavish Reynolds gets nothing.
My daughter is 9 years old, and I've already -- twice! -- had to have The Talk parents of black girls often need to have with them: telling her that, no, despite what she sees in media over and over and over again, white skin + fair, straight hair is not the absolute standard of beauty, rendering your dark skin and kinky hair ugly by default.
My son is 6 and although I have practiced The Talk parents of black boys need to have with them many times in recent years, my breath catches in my throat and my stomach ties itself in knots every time I think about actually having it. Right now, cops think of him as a cute little kid. They call him "Buddy," they give him stickers, talk to him like they think he's a decent person. Can't say for certain when he's going to transition from cute little kid to suspected killer/deadly unarmed combatant/imminent and critical threat to the safety of all officers and real Americans in their eyes, but I'm guessing it's going to be much sooner than anyone thinks.
With both kids, I'm going to have to have a Talk about how in just a little while, when they go into stores with their white friends, they will find the manager and/or employees watching them closely and following them around. Not every time -- it might actually be more bearable if it were every single time. But it'll be often enough to damage them. And about how whenever they're up to some mischief with white friends -- loud party, skateboarding where they shouldn't be, etc -- when any authority figure comes around, they're going to get extra hard looks regardless of their level of participation in whatever the precipitating activity is.
As I try to process these latest two killings (and think about the ones that aren't making national news), I feel that the next time someone produces a "modern edition" of The Bible, they should amend Matthew 25:38 - 45 to say something like:
"...For I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was killed while unarmed and struggling to comply with the keepers of the peace and you said I deserved to be killed.
And they too will reply, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and not feed you? When did we see you killed while unarmed and struggling to comply with the keepers of the peace and say you deserved to be killed?'
Then The Lord will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you did not do for Me. And when you said the least of these my brothers and sisters deserved to be killed, you said it of Me."
posted by lord_wolf at 9:23 AM on July 7, 2016 [90 favorites]
My daughter is 9 years old, and I've already -- twice! -- had to have The Talk parents of black girls often need to have with them: telling her that, no, despite what she sees in media over and over and over again, white skin + fair, straight hair is not the absolute standard of beauty, rendering your dark skin and kinky hair ugly by default.
My son is 6 and although I have practiced The Talk parents of black boys need to have with them many times in recent years, my breath catches in my throat and my stomach ties itself in knots every time I think about actually having it. Right now, cops think of him as a cute little kid. They call him "Buddy," they give him stickers, talk to him like they think he's a decent person. Can't say for certain when he's going to transition from cute little kid to suspected killer/deadly unarmed combatant/imminent and critical threat to the safety of all officers and real Americans in their eyes, but I'm guessing it's going to be much sooner than anyone thinks.
With both kids, I'm going to have to have a Talk about how in just a little while, when they go into stores with their white friends, they will find the manager and/or employees watching them closely and following them around. Not every time -- it might actually be more bearable if it were every single time. But it'll be often enough to damage them. And about how whenever they're up to some mischief with white friends -- loud party, skateboarding where they shouldn't be, etc -- when any authority figure comes around, they're going to get extra hard looks regardless of their level of participation in whatever the precipitating activity is.
As I try to process these latest two killings (and think about the ones that aren't making national news), I feel that the next time someone produces a "modern edition" of The Bible, they should amend Matthew 25:38 - 45 to say something like:
"...For I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was killed while unarmed and struggling to comply with the keepers of the peace and you said I deserved to be killed.
And they too will reply, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and not feed you? When did we see you killed while unarmed and struggling to comply with the keepers of the peace and say you deserved to be killed?'
Then The Lord will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you did not do for Me. And when you said the least of these my brothers and sisters deserved to be killed, you said it of Me."
posted by lord_wolf at 9:23 AM on July 7, 2016 [90 favorites]
If I only had a penguin..., this series of tweets describes what can be done, starting right now, to end this. If it doesn't feel like a grand enough gesture, it's because change can only begin by taking small steps. Grassroots, if you will.
posted by cooker girl at 9:24 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 9:24 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
And I think it should happen. But if all 500+ cops who killed someone this year went to prison, I might say that was just, but if 500 people are killed by cops in the next 6 months, too, then I wouldn't say it was justice. Getting justice requires both that those cops who already killed people go to prison, and that there be far fewer deaths going forward.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:24 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:24 AM on July 7, 2016
If there are consequences you can expect to see change - thusfar there have been no consequences. Cops simply aren't held accountable for shootings, and are probably applauded for them within their ranks.
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
You know what would be a real set of consequences? The cops who cover for other cops getting charged too.
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [41 favorites]
well lets just find out if actually holding the murderous cops responsible works at all, because we haven't honestly tried that, so saying it won't work isn't supported by evidence.
posted by nadawi at 9:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
I'm saying "Throw those cops in jail and do this other thing, too" I guess I'm focussed on "do this other thing" because there's already lots of focus on "throw those cops in jail."
Thanks, CookerGirl...Call my cynical, but I see the words "city" and "local" and "department" in there far too much. I think things are corrupt to the point of unfixable at the level of the city or individual department. The change needs to come from above. It would be like trying to desegregate schools by passing by-laws board by board instead of having it come down federally. It never would have happened.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks, CookerGirl...Call my cynical, but I see the words "city" and "local" and "department" in there far too much. I think things are corrupt to the point of unfixable at the level of the city or individual department. The change needs to come from above. It would be like trying to desegregate schools by passing by-laws board by board instead of having it come down federally. It never would have happened.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
and yes! you file a false report to cover up murder committed by you or a fellow officer, you're charged under the felony murder rule. lets try that on for a few years, see what happens.
posted by nadawi at 9:30 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:30 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
well lets just find out if actually holding the murderous cops responsible works at all, because we haven't honestly tried that, so saying it won't work isn't supported by evidence.
Murderous cops will never be consistently held responsible under the current structure. According to that Amnesty International report, what they're doing may not even violate the law. The structure needs to change to one where murderous cops know there's a high probability they will be held responsible. That's never going to happen when it's the very police department they work for that is responsible for investigating and collecting evidence, and the very government they work for responsible for deciding if they should be prosecuted.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Murderous cops will never be consistently held responsible under the current structure. According to that Amnesty International report, what they're doing may not even violate the law. The structure needs to change to one where murderous cops know there's a high probability they will be held responsible. That's never going to happen when it's the very police department they work for that is responsible for investigating and collecting evidence, and the very government they work for responsible for deciding if they should be prosecuted.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It would be like trying to desegregate schools by passing by-laws board by board instead of having it come down federally. It never would have happened.
Same-sex marriage started out as a local issue and worked its way up.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Same-sex marriage started out as a local issue and worked its way up.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
One thing I am confused about in the video from Diamond Reynolds -- Philando Castile is in the right front seat, behind the steering wheel: was the video flipped or were they in a right-hand drive car for some reason?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It just really seems like magical thinking that all of a sudden the Federal government is going to get their act together and decree...something. There are concrete things you as an individual can be doing RIGHT NOW, spelled out by a POC and it feels like you're saying it's not good enough, it's not big enough, and I think that's a cop out (no pun intended).
posted by cooker girl at 9:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 9:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
As far as adding a federal law goes, anything with even a hint of "anti-cop", "soft on crime" or gun control language will be impossible as long as the current Republican party controls any branch of government.
It'd be politically tricky no matter what, but right now, many conservatives are doubling down on the "Cops are heroes" narrative, evidence be damned.
posted by tau_ceti at 9:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It'd be politically tricky no matter what, but right now, many conservatives are doubling down on the "Cops are heroes" narrative, evidence be damned.
posted by tau_ceti at 9:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
... I've just had a look at the Iraq Body Count Database. If the American police killed 1146 people last year (and are on course for about the same number of people this year), they killed more people last year than the US and coalition military (excluding Iraqi troops) have done in Iraq every year from 2005 onwards except 2007. If we include the Iraqi troops they killed more people than the Coalition military did any year between 2008 and 2013.
That isn't policing! That's a military occupation!
(And before some wiseass points out that the US has ten times as many people as Iraq, (a) think about the comparison, and (b) even when we include the Iraqi military there are several years since the invasion where the death rate in Iraq is lower than it was from the police in America last year).
posted by Francis at 9:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
That isn't policing! That's a military occupation!
(And before some wiseass points out that the US has ten times as many people as Iraq, (a) think about the comparison, and (b) even when we include the Iraqi military there are several years since the invasion where the death rate in Iraq is lower than it was from the police in America last year).
posted by Francis at 9:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
So I'll rephrase my point and bow out: Let's demand changes to the structure so that under the new structure, there are fewer murderous cops (via screening and training) and those who remain can expect that they will consistently end up in prison (via changing the statutes that govern this and the procedures for investigating and prosecuting and removing conflicts of interest in those procedures). Having a structure that ensures consistent prosecution and conviction will also reduce the number of murderous cops.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:36 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:36 AM on July 7, 2016
They haven't sent the cops to prison at all. Except that one who's Asian.
If you're referring to Peter Liang, he served no jail time even though he was convicted of manslaughter.
posted by Mavri at 9:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you're referring to Peter Liang, he served no jail time even though he was convicted of manslaughter.
posted by Mavri at 9:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Was reminded of a previous mefi post, The Eleven Nations of America.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:42 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
"There’s never been an America, but rather several Americas—each a distinct nation. There are eleven nations today. Each looks at violence, as well as everything else, in its own way."And I wonder how these viewpoints have evolved into where we are now.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:42 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
NYC folk - there is a demonstration at 5 pm in Union Square today.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:43 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:43 AM on July 7, 2016
I promised to bow out but I hadn't previewed...
It just really seems like magical thinking that all of a sudden the Federal government is going to get their act together and decree...something. There are concrete things you as an individual can be doing RIGHT NOW, spelled out by a POC and it feels like you're saying it's not good enough, it's not big enough, and I think that's a cop out (no pun intended).
Yeah, I don't know what's politically feasible. It's one of the questions I asked. But movements need to ask big, I think, rather than settle before they even ask for anything. There's an article on what gun control can learn from gay marriage on this that I found interesting.
And as for what I can be doing right now, I feel like I'm pretty good on that twitter list. I know what the statutes are for use of force here, I know what the investigation procedures are, and in my country one person has been killed by the police this year. Here the police harass minorities, but killing is mainly reserved for the mentally ill. And yes, I've talked to local politicians about it (the harassment, not killing, which is just happens a lot less here). I know the current body camera situation in my city, and I know about the civilian oversight board for our police department.
I'm not saying this stuff doesn't matter, I'm saying I don't think it's likely to work, as evidenced by the fact that it doesn't work. Having local cops in charge of investigating each other does not work. It does not result in murderous cops going to prison.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:48 AM on July 7, 2016
It just really seems like magical thinking that all of a sudden the Federal government is going to get their act together and decree...something. There are concrete things you as an individual can be doing RIGHT NOW, spelled out by a POC and it feels like you're saying it's not good enough, it's not big enough, and I think that's a cop out (no pun intended).
Yeah, I don't know what's politically feasible. It's one of the questions I asked. But movements need to ask big, I think, rather than settle before they even ask for anything. There's an article on what gun control can learn from gay marriage on this that I found interesting.
And as for what I can be doing right now, I feel like I'm pretty good on that twitter list. I know what the statutes are for use of force here, I know what the investigation procedures are, and in my country one person has been killed by the police this year. Here the police harass minorities, but killing is mainly reserved for the mentally ill. And yes, I've talked to local politicians about it (the harassment, not killing, which is just happens a lot less here). I know the current body camera situation in my city, and I know about the civilian oversight board for our police department.
I'm not saying this stuff doesn't matter, I'm saying I don't think it's likely to work, as evidenced by the fact that it doesn't work. Having local cops in charge of investigating each other does not work. It does not result in murderous cops going to prison.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:48 AM on July 7, 2016
One thing I am confused about in the video from Diamond Reynolds -- Philando Castile is in the right front seat, behind the steering wheel: was the video flipped or were they in a right-hand drive car for some reason?
The phone probably flips video so that when recording yourself it will be like you're seeing into a mirror.
posted by ymgve at 9:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The phone probably flips video so that when recording yourself it will be like you're seeing into a mirror.
posted by ymgve at 9:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
She says as Castile was reaching for his wallet, he informed officers that he had a firearm in his possession, and a conceal-and-carry permit.I'm assuming the cop had his gun drawn and got twitchy. Did he have his gun drawn at the outset? For a traffic stop?
Reynolds says in the video that an officer then shot her boyfriend four times.
The officer in the video at one point screams, “I told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his hand out …”
Reynolds tells the officer, “You told him to get his I.D., sir, his driver’s license.”
posted by mazola at 9:53 AM on July 7, 2016
if you need a little heart lifting, i suggest taking a peek at #CarefreeBlackKids2k16
posted by nadawi at 9:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I want to thank the Black people who are participating in this thread. I can only imagine a little of the constant pain and anger you must be going through. On a different axis of oppression, I often have to step away when transgender and gay issues come up because it's just too much for my heart to bear. I never did read the Orlando thread. So thank you for sharing your perspectives.
posted by AFABulous at 9:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 9:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
I'm assuming the cop had his gun drawn and got twitchy. Did he have his gun drawn at the outset? For a traffic stop?
Twitter reports that the police car had a dashcam, so hopefully we'll find out. The video from Reynolds only begins after the shooting.
posted by AFABulous at 9:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Twitter reports that the police car had a dashcam, so hopefully we'll find out. The video from Reynolds only begins after the shooting.
posted by AFABulous at 9:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
that's why they threw her phone.
now consider apple's patent to disable your phone's camera...
posted by nadawi at 10:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
now consider apple's patent to disable your phone's camera...
posted by nadawi at 10:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
This scene aired in 1991. (top hit on reddit right now)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
The phone probably flips video so that when recording yourself it will be like you're seeing into a mirror.
Mine does that as well, but the finished video is not flipped. Is this an artifact of it going to Facebook live?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:08 AM on July 7, 2016
Mine does that as well, but the finished video is not flipped. Is this an artifact of it going to Facebook live?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:08 AM on July 7, 2016
I hope this isn't a derail, but something that's stood out to me in both of these videos is how absolutely terrified the police officers were of these unarmed black men.
The officer who murdered Alton Sterling has a moment of total panic: his voice shoots up and octave and he starts screaming, "Gun, gun, he's got a gun!" and then he shoots. The amount of fear was absolutely unreal, almost a caricature; I felt like I was watching a JK Rowling adaptation of Dudley Dursley squealing like a pig. The officer who murdered Philandro Castile was having a weeping breakdown and kept trying to say that Philandro was reaching for a gun to shoot him with. The cop who got a separate mefi account to show up to the Oakland PD rape FPP had nothing to say about the OPD's child trafficking, but ranted on for paragraphs and paragraphs about how terrified he is that he's going to get shot at Safeway. Every officer I've ever spoken to or heard interviewed talks about the danger of a suspect taking your gun and shooting you with it. This is something that happened to exactly three officers in 2011 according to the FBI, but police seem to think this is a serious, present danger, not a freak occurrence, and it's clear they are being trained to think this way-- both to fear and hate black people and that their lives as officers are in danger every minute of every day from a dangerous public that you need to shoot before they shoot you. Before they implemented a de-escalation training (very recent, results unclear) this was the LAPD's training for officers wrt deadly force:
At the Los Angeles Police Department's training academy, fresh-faced recruits step in front of a giant TV screen. It's a force option simulator, a sort of video game that presents them with scenarios where they have to decide what to do.
In one scenario, an officer stops a vehicle that has no license plate and approaches from the right side. A woman in the driver's seat greets the officer.
It seems like a pretty standard car stop. The friendly woman smiles broadly as she leans over to look for her car registration inside the glove compartment.
"It's in here somewhere," she says — before pulling out a gun and firing.
There it is; that's the exact script running in the head of the officer who murdered Philandro Castile. God knows how many times he roleplayed it in a training LARP or video game. Where is this training paradigm coming from? It's clearly part of modern policing culture and it's clearly responsible for deaths. And it's clearly a very well defined policy, not just larger social prejudices like racism at work-- police are being taught to be wildly paranoid and their own racism directs that paranoia and violence at black and brown people. A few years ago I was appalled to read that Ender's Game was being used as a template for actual military training because a bunch of training wonks (and not soldiers) were really into it and thought it would work. Horrifying. Do we have data like this on what entities or think tanks or whatever are training police to be fearful, racist, hair-trigger murderers?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [86 favorites]
The officer who murdered Alton Sterling has a moment of total panic: his voice shoots up and octave and he starts screaming, "Gun, gun, he's got a gun!" and then he shoots. The amount of fear was absolutely unreal, almost a caricature; I felt like I was watching a JK Rowling adaptation of Dudley Dursley squealing like a pig. The officer who murdered Philandro Castile was having a weeping breakdown and kept trying to say that Philandro was reaching for a gun to shoot him with. The cop who got a separate mefi account to show up to the Oakland PD rape FPP had nothing to say about the OPD's child trafficking, but ranted on for paragraphs and paragraphs about how terrified he is that he's going to get shot at Safeway. Every officer I've ever spoken to or heard interviewed talks about the danger of a suspect taking your gun and shooting you with it. This is something that happened to exactly three officers in 2011 according to the FBI, but police seem to think this is a serious, present danger, not a freak occurrence, and it's clear they are being trained to think this way-- both to fear and hate black people and that their lives as officers are in danger every minute of every day from a dangerous public that you need to shoot before they shoot you. Before they implemented a de-escalation training (very recent, results unclear) this was the LAPD's training for officers wrt deadly force:
At the Los Angeles Police Department's training academy, fresh-faced recruits step in front of a giant TV screen. It's a force option simulator, a sort of video game that presents them with scenarios where they have to decide what to do.
In one scenario, an officer stops a vehicle that has no license plate and approaches from the right side. A woman in the driver's seat greets the officer.
It seems like a pretty standard car stop. The friendly woman smiles broadly as she leans over to look for her car registration inside the glove compartment.
"It's in here somewhere," she says — before pulling out a gun and firing.
There it is; that's the exact script running in the head of the officer who murdered Philandro Castile. God knows how many times he roleplayed it in a training LARP or video game. Where is this training paradigm coming from? It's clearly part of modern policing culture and it's clearly responsible for deaths. And it's clearly a very well defined policy, not just larger social prejudices like racism at work-- police are being taught to be wildly paranoid and their own racism directs that paranoia and violence at black and brown people. A few years ago I was appalled to read that Ender's Game was being used as a template for actual military training because a bunch of training wonks (and not soldiers) were really into it and thought it would work. Horrifying. Do we have data like this on what entities or think tanks or whatever are training police to be fearful, racist, hair-trigger murderers?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [86 favorites]
If only there were a major political party with a core interest in protecting citizens from the power of the state. You think they might stand up to this bullshit, maybe?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
My wife reminded me of this constrasting local news story from yesterday (Raleigh, NC). Short version:
* Motorist reports a 62 year old white man is seen standing near the road pointing a shotgun at passing cars.
* Police arrive and approach him, and eventually wrestle the shotgun from him.
* The man then pulls a concealed handgun and fires a shot but does not strike anyone.
* The police are able to disarm him and take him into custody.
Number one, that's how it's done and is what I'd consider the kind of bravery I expect police to exhibit. They took some substantial risks in order to avoid a worse outcome.
Number two, let's try to imagine how this might have gone down if the man was young and black. We really need some serious police reform and a concerted attempt to bring communities and police forces closer together.
posted by freecellwizard at 10:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [57 favorites]
* Motorist reports a 62 year old white man is seen standing near the road pointing a shotgun at passing cars.
* Police arrive and approach him, and eventually wrestle the shotgun from him.
* The man then pulls a concealed handgun and fires a shot but does not strike anyone.
* The police are able to disarm him and take him into custody.
Number one, that's how it's done and is what I'd consider the kind of bravery I expect police to exhibit. They took some substantial risks in order to avoid a worse outcome.
Number two, let's try to imagine how this might have gone down if the man was young and black. We really need some serious police reform and a concerted attempt to bring communities and police forces closer together.
posted by freecellwizard at 10:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [57 favorites]
> Sterling is the 560th person killed by police this year in the United States.
Can you imagine the shit that would be going down if terrorists had killed 560 people in the United States this year?
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Can you imagine the shit that would be going down if terrorists had killed 560 people in the United States this year?
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:20 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
I have an idea, let's switch firefighters, who don't seem to be scared of much of anything, with police officers.
posted by AFABulous at 10:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 10:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
The Card Cheat, the police ARE terrorists by any definition. Terrorism, noun: 1. The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce. 2. The state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
posted by AFABulous at 10:22 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 10:22 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
Is there a way to see what white men get killed by cops for doing?
The Counted - The Guardian has an interactive feature covering every police killing in the US since 2015.
posted by maggiemaggie at 10:29 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Counted - The Guardian has an interactive feature covering every police killing in the US since 2015.
posted by maggiemaggie at 10:29 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Counted - The Guardian has an interactive feature covering every police killing in the US since 2015.
The fact that the last digit of that count is poised to flip to "2" is literally making me tear up at my desk.
posted by Etrigan at 10:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
The fact that the last digit of that count is poised to flip to "2" is literally making me tear up at my desk.
posted by Etrigan at 10:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
You know, my understanding of self-defense killings is that they all basically get investigated as a homicide until the facts become clear.
I kind of think that the use of lethal force by police should be investigated the same way but by the FBI or something. Police can and, if necessary, should use deadly force, but they'll want to make sure that they are absolutely certain that they're following every procedure because the FBI is going to come investigate it like it isn't.
Then I bet the police would get really good at keeping themselves from even getting into situations where deadly force is an option.
posted by VTX at 10:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I kind of think that the use of lethal force by police should be investigated the same way but by the FBI or something. Police can and, if necessary, should use deadly force, but they'll want to make sure that they are absolutely certain that they're following every procedure because the FBI is going to come investigate it like it isn't.
Then I bet the police would get really good at keeping themselves from even getting into situations where deadly force is an option.
posted by VTX at 10:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
In 1996, Xzibit had a song called "The Foundation" which was advice to his newborn son. In the first verse he says:
"It's the 90's the police just arrest you,
disrespect you, on occasion take life
By the time you come of age they'll probably blast on sight"
I'm so pissed off and sad that he was right.
posted by lkc at 10:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
"It's the 90's the police just arrest you,
disrespect you, on occasion take life
By the time you come of age they'll probably blast on sight"
I'm so pissed off and sad that he was right.
posted by lkc at 10:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Thank you all who've posted links on small steps and ways to take action.
Also just a reminder about apps out there to help record police interactions (Slate (I know) has a decent round-up, with advice on safety and how-to), including the ACLU Mobile Justice app which preserves videos even if the phone is taken or destroyed. (Caveat: there are critiques of these apps, but I'll leave it to you to decide if the criticism is real or horseshit.)
posted by barchan at 10:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also just a reminder about apps out there to help record police interactions (Slate (I know) has a decent round-up, with advice on safety and how-to), including the ACLU Mobile Justice app which preserves videos even if the phone is taken or destroyed. (Caveat: there are critiques of these apps, but I'll leave it to you to decide if the criticism is real or horseshit.)
posted by barchan at 10:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Card Cheat, the police ARE terrorists by any definition.
I don't care if one wants to use the term 'terrorist' as a pejorative against the cops in the US, but as someone who studies terrorism for a living, the key definition that most scholars use relates to an audience that is different than the target with the aim of making some political change. I don't think that cops in the US are killing thousands of people because they want to frighten others into accepting their demands. The root causes are much more likely to be a result of racism, poor training, and a lack of accountability.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I don't care if one wants to use the term 'terrorist' as a pejorative against the cops in the US, but as someone who studies terrorism for a living, the key definition that most scholars use relates to an audience that is different than the target with the aim of making some political change. I don't think that cops in the US are killing thousands of people because they want to frighten others into accepting their demands. The root causes are much more likely to be a result of racism, poor training, and a lack of accountability.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
This happened about a block from me yesterday afternoon while I was at work. A potential suicide-by-cop situation was resolved by SFPD after about 4 hours without any loss of life and as far as I can tell the guy was treated for minor injuries only due to the beanbags that were used. I'm honestly wondering did this guy just get lucky this time or is the training implemented as a result of protests actually having an effect. Does this mean that progress is possible?
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:36 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:36 AM on July 7, 2016
Where is this training paradigm coming from? It's clearly part of modern policing culture and it's clearly responsible for deaths.
I went through some of this twice, over 20 years ago: once in a very low-level basic law enforcement course in California, and then a year later as part of boarding team training for the Coast Guard.
In that LE course, we were shown real dashcams of police ambushed and killed during traffic stops. The overt message, reinforced by "this guy got killed, this guy didn't" videos, was that an aggressive posture would save your life while a friendlier posture made you vulnerable. What wasn't pointed out, and what I only caught on by being critical about it, was that the ambushers were typically minorities.
A year later in the Coast Guard, I did a sort of "judgment shoot" test where I was given an empty pistol and put in front of a video of various scenarios. My ship's gunner's mate (a third class, and only in his early 20s) evaluated my decisions. Many scenarios involved someone being a little grouchy and reaching out of sight. I pulled my gun during a video of a dockside ambush and shot several times. Other guys watching joked, but the gunner's mate approved and signed off on it. Later, the video sent me up alongside a sailboat, where a snarky older woman throws insults, then reaches out of sight. I pulled my gun. She pulled a life ring. Everyone laughed, except the gunner's mate, who shrugged and said, "Hey, you didn't fire," and that's all that mattered.
That was a very basic intro. I'd have done more of that had I not received transfer orders before completing that boarding team training, and presumably I'd have gotten more comfortable with those interactions. But it got me thinking: all of this is designed to keep you alive, because the job really is dangerous and you really could be attacked...but this comes at the cost of teaching you to view everyone with suspicion, and they reinforce over and over again how vulnerable you are.
I keep thinking back to how much I wanted to grow up to be a cop when I was a kid. The Coast Guard made me think better of that (bad knees, hatred of toxic masculinity, other reasons), but I keep wondering what might've become of me if I'd pursued that career. I don't know if I'd have become more callous and prone to violence...or if my principles would've gotten me into trouble with my fellow cops. Because we have plenty of evidence of what happens to cops who speak out against all this bullshit, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
I went through some of this twice, over 20 years ago: once in a very low-level basic law enforcement course in California, and then a year later as part of boarding team training for the Coast Guard.
In that LE course, we were shown real dashcams of police ambushed and killed during traffic stops. The overt message, reinforced by "this guy got killed, this guy didn't" videos, was that an aggressive posture would save your life while a friendlier posture made you vulnerable. What wasn't pointed out, and what I only caught on by being critical about it, was that the ambushers were typically minorities.
A year later in the Coast Guard, I did a sort of "judgment shoot" test where I was given an empty pistol and put in front of a video of various scenarios. My ship's gunner's mate (a third class, and only in his early 20s) evaluated my decisions. Many scenarios involved someone being a little grouchy and reaching out of sight. I pulled my gun during a video of a dockside ambush and shot several times. Other guys watching joked, but the gunner's mate approved and signed off on it. Later, the video sent me up alongside a sailboat, where a snarky older woman throws insults, then reaches out of sight. I pulled my gun. She pulled a life ring. Everyone laughed, except the gunner's mate, who shrugged and said, "Hey, you didn't fire," and that's all that mattered.
That was a very basic intro. I'd have done more of that had I not received transfer orders before completing that boarding team training, and presumably I'd have gotten more comfortable with those interactions. But it got me thinking: all of this is designed to keep you alive, because the job really is dangerous and you really could be attacked...but this comes at the cost of teaching you to view everyone with suspicion, and they reinforce over and over again how vulnerable you are.
I keep thinking back to how much I wanted to grow up to be a cop when I was a kid. The Coast Guard made me think better of that (bad knees, hatred of toxic masculinity, other reasons), but I keep wondering what might've become of me if I'd pursued that career. I don't know if I'd have become more callous and prone to violence...or if my principles would've gotten me into trouble with my fellow cops. Because we have plenty of evidence of what happens to cops who speak out against all this bullshit, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
I'm honestly wondering did this guy just get lucky this time or is the training implemented as a result of protests actually having an effect. Does this mean that progress is possible?
Or was he white?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Or was he white?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am having a lot of feelings, but here's a big one: I just can't stop thinking about this one case that I had a few weeks back (I'm a defense attorney). It was a young black male, charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon and menacing.
He was in a park after dark, and his car was parked on the lawn. Police saw his vehicle, and he started to drive away. They pulled him over, and several officers approached the window (they must have called for back-up before getting to the window, because all of a sudden there were a LOT of officers), and asked him to get out of the car. He tells me he told the officer he had a gun; the officer says he didn't. (Body cam audio was not yet turned on.) He goes to get out of the car, and puts his hands up. For less than 3 seconds - literally, I stopped the video - his right arm looks to be near his hip before it is in the air. He gets out of his car and stands next to the police car. The police find a firearm under where his feet were, directly beneath the driver's side seat. For the next 20 minutes, the police lecture him about how they were so glad he was still alive; he could have killed someone; that could have been bad. I mean, why did he reach for his firearm? Then they arrest him. I pointed out in court later that according to them they didn't know about the gun until after he was safely out of the car, and anyway that's not where the gun actually was, and the officer seemed almost offended that I doubted his own Fear For His Life.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much in this case because the kid only spent the night in jail on it (well, he had to forfeit the gun), and no one was hurt. But I just can't stop thinking about it, because all these officers were extremely relieved they didn't shoot, and were actively angry at him for somehow putting them in that position. Of Almost But Not Quite Murderers. Like, they were actively trying to punish him for making them scared (for their lives/their careers?)
And that's probably what would have happened to Mr. Castile if the officer hadn't have shot. He would likely have been charged with menacing, arrested, taken to jail, and then forced to take a plea deal or try the damn thing -- in front of a white jury, probably, with his version of events contrasted to the officer's -- running the risk of jail time and who knows what other penalties. Essentially for being black, at night, and for trying to do what the officer told him to do.
I don't have any brilliant conclusion or anything; the whole thing just makes me feel overwhelmed.
posted by likeatoaster at 10:40 AM on July 7, 2016 [57 favorites]
He was in a park after dark, and his car was parked on the lawn. Police saw his vehicle, and he started to drive away. They pulled him over, and several officers approached the window (they must have called for back-up before getting to the window, because all of a sudden there were a LOT of officers), and asked him to get out of the car. He tells me he told the officer he had a gun; the officer says he didn't. (Body cam audio was not yet turned on.) He goes to get out of the car, and puts his hands up. For less than 3 seconds - literally, I stopped the video - his right arm looks to be near his hip before it is in the air. He gets out of his car and stands next to the police car. The police find a firearm under where his feet were, directly beneath the driver's side seat. For the next 20 minutes, the police lecture him about how they were so glad he was still alive; he could have killed someone; that could have been bad. I mean, why did he reach for his firearm? Then they arrest him. I pointed out in court later that according to them they didn't know about the gun until after he was safely out of the car, and anyway that's not where the gun actually was, and the officer seemed almost offended that I doubted his own Fear For His Life.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much in this case because the kid only spent the night in jail on it (well, he had to forfeit the gun), and no one was hurt. But I just can't stop thinking about it, because all these officers were extremely relieved they didn't shoot, and were actively angry at him for somehow putting them in that position. Of Almost But Not Quite Murderers. Like, they were actively trying to punish him for making them scared (for their lives/their careers?)
And that's probably what would have happened to Mr. Castile if the officer hadn't have shot. He would likely have been charged with menacing, arrested, taken to jail, and then forced to take a plea deal or try the damn thing -- in front of a white jury, probably, with his version of events contrasted to the officer's -- running the risk of jail time and who knows what other penalties. Essentially for being black, at night, and for trying to do what the officer told him to do.
I don't have any brilliant conclusion or anything; the whole thing just makes me feel overwhelmed.
posted by likeatoaster at 10:40 AM on July 7, 2016 [57 favorites]
this mean that progress is possible?
When accompanied by months of protests, an Academy Award nominated film, sweeping political changes and the unmitigated fact that every single person within 100 miles comes equipped with an instantly disseminating video camera, then indubitably maybe.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:41 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
When accompanied by months of protests, an Academy Award nominated film, sweeping political changes and the unmitigated fact that every single person within 100 miles comes equipped with an instantly disseminating video camera, then indubitably maybe.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:41 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
(Sorry, Fruitvale Station won an award at Sundance, not the Oscars, my bad!)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:42 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:42 AM on July 7, 2016
He wasn't white, but he did spend most of the 4 hours lying face down on the ground with his hands in his pockets.
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think that cops in the US are killing thousands of people because they want to frighten others into accepting their demands.
I sure do.
posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
I sure do.
posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
this series of tweets describes what can be done, starting right now, to end this.
Came here to post this same thing, thank you cooker girl.
Hey fellow white people. If you feel ragged and ablaze with rage as I do, if you're all cried out, if you're feeling all helpless like I do, well first? Step back and shut up for a second. And after that: Follow those linked instructions above. I just reserved a spot on my city's Citizens Police Academy training course, which is a pre-requisite for joining my city's volunteer Citizens Review Board. It was so fucking easy. The next step is contacting local elected officials and making noise. Make sure they know that your support, and the support of everybody else who listens to you, is predicated on taking positive action towards ending police violence and the protection against prosecution that the police enjoy. Then buy a dash cam. Put an app on your phone that automatically sends recorded video to cloud storage. Go here, and here, and donate money or time.
These are literally the least, smallest things that can be done. There are a thousand more steps like these we can all take. Not because the Black community needs us to save them, but because (as AFABulous said above) this is the fruit of white supremacy, from which we have all benefited whether we wanted to or not. These actions, and more, are what we owe. It's going to take a lot of work and time to see progress, but if we do these things often enough and loudly enough, they'll start to help. They will do more than just assure your (my) ego that you're (I'm) on Team Good Guys. And you can start today, right now, this instant. At least that's what I'm doing so far.
posted by penduluum at 10:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
Came here to post this same thing, thank you cooker girl.
Hey fellow white people. If you feel ragged and ablaze with rage as I do, if you're all cried out, if you're feeling all helpless like I do, well first? Step back and shut up for a second. And after that: Follow those linked instructions above. I just reserved a spot on my city's Citizens Police Academy training course, which is a pre-requisite for joining my city's volunteer Citizens Review Board. It was so fucking easy. The next step is contacting local elected officials and making noise. Make sure they know that your support, and the support of everybody else who listens to you, is predicated on taking positive action towards ending police violence and the protection against prosecution that the police enjoy. Then buy a dash cam. Put an app on your phone that automatically sends recorded video to cloud storage. Go here, and here, and donate money or time.
These are literally the least, smallest things that can be done. There are a thousand more steps like these we can all take. Not because the Black community needs us to save them, but because (as AFABulous said above) this is the fruit of white supremacy, from which we have all benefited whether we wanted to or not. These actions, and more, are what we owe. It's going to take a lot of work and time to see progress, but if we do these things often enough and loudly enough, they'll start to help. They will do more than just assure your (my) ego that you're (I'm) on Team Good Guys. And you can start today, right now, this instant. At least that's what I'm doing so far.
posted by penduluum at 10:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
[insert clever name here]: Disarm the police. It's the only answer I can think of at this point outside of outright disbanding them. And you know what? I think we'd mostly be okay if cops were disarmed. Of course they couldn't go in as oppressors anymore.
This is not only possible, but also in practice. Alaska's Unarmed Law Enforcement, some of who still didn't want to carry a sidearm even after one of their own was killed in the line of duty. If this sounds familiar, it's from NPR back in 2014, and I posted it a thread about Michael Brown.
But disarming police doesn't mean just taking away their guns - the village public safety officers (VPSOs) serve rural communities and get to know the people, honing skills in talking and listening instead of quick response with a firearm. Some VSPOs are native and related to the people in the communities they serve, others are not, but none carry guns (a far as I can tell, this is still true).
This is not to say that Alaska is a magical land of peaceful police. They created special investigative unit to handle police misconduct earlier this year, and some officers received attention for how they aggressively handled an autistic man who they thought was trying to rob a rental car, but they assaulted that young man with pepper spray, not guns.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is not only possible, but also in practice. Alaska's Unarmed Law Enforcement, some of who still didn't want to carry a sidearm even after one of their own was killed in the line of duty. If this sounds familiar, it's from NPR back in 2014, and I posted it a thread about Michael Brown.
But disarming police doesn't mean just taking away their guns - the village public safety officers (VPSOs) serve rural communities and get to know the people, honing skills in talking and listening instead of quick response with a firearm. Some VSPOs are native and related to the people in the communities they serve, others are not, but none carry guns (a far as I can tell, this is still true).
This is not to say that Alaska is a magical land of peaceful police. They created special investigative unit to handle police misconduct earlier this year, and some officers received attention for how they aggressively handled an autistic man who they thought was trying to rob a rental car, but they assaulted that young man with pepper spray, not guns.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Break the pig unions. Corrections too.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm not surprised that police body counts compare unfavorably to military ones, as previous posters have pointed out regarding the Irish Troubles and the Iraqi Occupation. From my time in the Navy I witnessed a very strong culture of accountability. Every morning when we mustered for duty aboard my ship the duty section would go over the requirements for deadly force wether you were going to be standing an armed watch that day or not. We all understood if you used your weapon for any reason, even drew and aimed at someone, you'd better be prepared to justify your actions. It seems when your job description truly includes "kill the enemy" you take deadly force more seriously than if your job description is "Serve and Protect"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 11:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 11:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Why the Philando Castile police-shooting video disappeared from Facebook — then came back: The details of the glitch aren't clear. But how Facebook determines what their users should or should not see on the site has become increasingly important as more and more of its 1.6 billion users get their news through the social network. According to a recent Pew Research survey, two-thirds of American Facebook users say they use the site to get news.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:05 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:05 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Police officer doesn't even rank in the Top 10 list of dangerous professions.
...and to the extent that it is dangerous to life and limb, that's mostly just because cops spend a lot of their time in cars. Mostly being a cop is dangerous the same way that driving a delivery van is.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
...and to the extent that it is dangerous to life and limb, that's mostly just because cops spend a lot of their time in cars. Mostly being a cop is dangerous the same way that driving a delivery van is.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Scrolling through that Guardian site is overwhelming.... especially reading the descriptions where the victim allegedly posed a threat to the police officer with the ghost of Laquan McDonald sitting on my shoulder .
I -never- get into arguments with random people on FB, but I did today (somebody's aunt who apparently comes from a long line of police but isn't on herself), and I found myself looking for the [!] button next to an egregious comment from her, hah. I need to remind myself to counter hate with love, and fear and aggression with peace and not snark.
posted by Fig at 11:10 AM on July 7, 2016
I -never- get into arguments with random people on FB, but I did today (somebody's aunt who apparently comes from a long line of police but isn't on herself), and I found myself looking for the [!] button next to an egregious comment from her, hah. I need to remind myself to counter hate with love, and fear and aggression with peace and not snark.
posted by Fig at 11:10 AM on July 7, 2016
More local reaction:
Donn O'Malley, the J.J. Hill Montessori School's Parent Teacher Organization chairman, said that he was a "cherished" member of the community.
"We entrusted our children to him during the school day and our children loved him," he told NBC News. "When I saw the news this morning and told my children about it, they were sad, confused and immediately started sharing with me how great Phil was."
The PTO was planning a march Thursday night in honor of Castile, added group member Tony Fragnito.
"Working in a school, your job is about enhancing the life of young learners," Fragnito said. "He took that to the next step. He had a lot of pride and passion in taking care of kids and making sure that they are productive and passionate adults."
posted by gimonca at 11:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Donn O'Malley, the J.J. Hill Montessori School's Parent Teacher Organization chairman, said that he was a "cherished" member of the community.
"We entrusted our children to him during the school day and our children loved him," he told NBC News. "When I saw the news this morning and told my children about it, they were sad, confused and immediately started sharing with me how great Phil was."
The PTO was planning a march Thursday night in honor of Castile, added group member Tony Fragnito.
"Working in a school, your job is about enhancing the life of young learners," Fragnito said. "He took that to the next step. He had a lot of pride and passion in taking care of kids and making sure that they are productive and passionate adults."
posted by gimonca at 11:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Fig, it's like you and I are flipped in how we handle this - my uncle is pretty prone to posting "support our police" kinds of stuff after incidents like this, and I've been holding my tongue and trying to be calm up to this point - but i think this time I am going to either snap or just unfriend him entirely because ARE YOU KIDDING.
(My cousin actually took him to task once over this kind of thing, but daughters can do that to their own parents.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
(My cousin actually took him to task once over this kind of thing, but daughters can do that to their own parents.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
A friend of Alton Sterling says the Baton Rouge man bought a gun for protection only hours before he was shot to death by two white cops outside a convenience store.
“He didn’t have a gun before that,” barber Ronnie Harton, 50, told the Daily News. “He said he had to protect himself, because he had all this money on him. Around this area, you get robbed real quick.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:17 AM on July 7, 2016
“He didn’t have a gun before that,” barber Ronnie Harton, 50, told the Daily News. “He said he had to protect himself, because he had all this money on him. Around this area, you get robbed real quick.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:17 AM on July 7, 2016
“He said he had to protect himself, because he had all this money on him. Around this area, you get robbed real quick.”
Yet the most pressing matter the cops had that night was harassing a guy selling CDs.
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
Yet the most pressing matter the cops had that night was harassing a guy selling CDs.
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
There are so many people who say "well, [person] shouldn't have resisted, he should have immediately complied with police demands and then he'd be alive." I'm not sure anyone knows how they'd react to being arrested, especially if they felt the arrest was unjust. Non-violent protesters have to be trained what to do in case of arrest because non-resistance is not a natural reaction.
When I've been stopped by the police (for speeding), I know why I'm being stopped, and I have time to gauge my emotional reaction accordingly. If a cop (or anyone) suddenly grabbed me, I may well react defensively. When I was much younger, a doctor did something painful I wasn't expecting and I hit him. I have never hit anyone in anger before or since. I weighed about 90 lbs at the time, and two adult males had to hold me down.
posted by AFABulous at 11:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
When I've been stopped by the police (for speeding), I know why I'm being stopped, and I have time to gauge my emotional reaction accordingly. If a cop (or anyone) suddenly grabbed me, I may well react defensively. When I was much younger, a doctor did something painful I wasn't expecting and I hit him. I have never hit anyone in anger before or since. I weighed about 90 lbs at the time, and two adult males had to hold me down.
posted by AFABulous at 11:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yet the most pressing matter the cops had that night was harassing a guy selling CDs.
There was an anonymous tip about a guy in red shirt waving a gun around, threatening people. Which makes me wonder if someone called that in to get him arrested or killed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
There was an anonymous tip about a guy in red shirt waving a gun around, threatening people. Which makes me wonder if someone called that in to get him arrested or killed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:31 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Statement from Saint Paul Public Schools about Philando Castile
posted by zachlipton at 11:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
One coworker said, “Kids loved him. He was smart, over-qualified. He was quiet, respectful, and kind. I knew him as warm and funny; he called me his 'wing man.' He wore a shirt and tie to his supervisor interview and said his goal was to one day 'sit on the other side of this table.’”As if everything else isn't bad enough, there's a school full of kids that now has to deal with the fact that the guy in charge of serving them lunch every day was shot dead by the police and that's just part of life in their community, every community in this country.
posted by zachlipton at 11:32 AM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
There was an anonymous tip about a guy in red shirt waving a gun around, threatening people. Which makes me wonder if someone called that in to get him arrested or killed.
My understanding is that it doesn't matter, because anonymous tips don't give the officers probable cause. They had to manufacture that once they arrived.
posted by rhizome at 11:37 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
My understanding is that it doesn't matter, because anonymous tips don't give the officers probable cause. They had to manufacture that once they arrived.
posted by rhizome at 11:37 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I’ve said this before: there is no justice where there are dead black people. I’ll continue saying it, because if we’re satisfied with charges and potential prison time, we’ve missed the entire point of #BlackLivesMatter. This isn’t about getting “better” police, ones who exercise discretion in using force, but getting away from “needing” police altogether.Mychal Denzel Smith, Abolish the Police. Instead, Let’s Have Full Social, Economic, and Political Equality
posted by standardasparagus at 11:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
There was an anonymous tip about a guy in red shirt waving a gun around, threatening people.
Like I pointed out above, WHY would a cop immediately physically approach someone who they know has a gun? This really sounds fishy and I hope they release the 911 tapes.
posted by AFABulous at 11:40 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Like I pointed out above, WHY would a cop immediately physically approach someone who they know has a gun? This really sounds fishy and I hope they release the 911 tapes.
posted by AFABulous at 11:40 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
There was an anonymous tip about a guy in red shirt waving a gun around, threatening people. Which makes me wonder if someone called that in to get him arrested or killed.
Not that it matters in this case, but John Crawford III was sentenced to death by cop by Ronald Richie, a lying, racist scumbag who was aided in getting off scott-free by Ohio's Republican AG.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:42 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Not that it matters in this case, but John Crawford III was sentenced to death by cop by Ronald Richie, a lying, racist scumbag who was aided in getting off scott-free by Ohio's Republican AG.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:42 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
> My wife reminded me of this constrasting local news story from yesterday (Raleigh, NC). Short version:
From that link: “As a deputy, you don’t ever know what to expect when you’re approaching something like that, so your training kicks in,” Harrison [the sheriff] said. “And of course when the gun came up, it was automatic to him to get that gun away from him, and he did exactly what he was supposed to.”
it was automatic to him to get that gun away from him. Not shoot him. Get that gun away from him.
posted by rtha at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
From that link: “As a deputy, you don’t ever know what to expect when you’re approaching something like that, so your training kicks in,” Harrison [the sheriff] said. “And of course when the gun came up, it was automatic to him to get that gun away from him, and he did exactly what he was supposed to.”
it was automatic to him to get that gun away from him. Not shoot him. Get that gun away from him.
posted by rtha at 11:48 AM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
every community in this country.
not every community because segregation is still very real. there are lots of communities that never know this pain, and that's just another reason why it keeps happening.
posted by nadawi at 11:49 AM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
not every community because segregation is still very real. there are lots of communities that never know this pain, and that's just another reason why it keeps happening.
posted by nadawi at 11:49 AM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
It's long past time to disarm the police, shatter the police unions, and break all the contracts they have that give them far, far, too much leeway.
Society needs police, but it doesn't need pigs. And what we've got in America today is nothing but wall to wall pigs.
I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Not with white America still so racist that even now so many white people defend the murders.
But the simple fact is that the police are the enemy. That's not right, that's not how it is supposed to be, but that's the way it is. I'll never drive past a traffic stop again, I've got a white body, I can get out there filming them at the very least.
posted by sotonohito at 11:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Society needs police, but it doesn't need pigs. And what we've got in America today is nothing but wall to wall pigs.
I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Not with white America still so racist that even now so many white people defend the murders.
But the simple fact is that the police are the enemy. That's not right, that's not how it is supposed to be, but that's the way it is. I'll never drive past a traffic stop again, I've got a white body, I can get out there filming them at the very least.
posted by sotonohito at 11:50 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Break the pig unions. Corrections too.
No, fuck that. I'm not degrading the strength of any union anywhere. Reform the unions instead. Bad unions are the reason people are against unions, the solution is not to get rid of unions but to improve the bad ones.
posted by VTX at 11:51 AM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
No, fuck that. I'm not degrading the strength of any union anywhere. Reform the unions instead. Bad unions are the reason people are against unions, the solution is not to get rid of unions but to improve the bad ones.
posted by VTX at 11:51 AM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Police unions aren't regular unions, they're basically criminal organizations. Break them all.
posted by Artw at 11:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also cop pensions should be forfeit in these cases. No sneaking off with a bag of the publics cash in hand. Racists can do an indiegogo for them or whatever.
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Where is this training paradigm coming from?
Pulled directly out of my ass, but aren't all occupying forces terrified of insurgency?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pulled directly out of my ass, but aren't all occupying forces terrified of insurgency?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a great opportunity to call out the NRA and its supporters, conservative and otherwise. Because if the AREN'T racist, they should be SCREAMING about two lawful gun owners executed for exercising their right to carry in perfectly legitimate fashion.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [39 favorites]
When asked directly about law-abiding Black gun owner being killed by cops, @NRA has "no comment"Not that we should be surprised, as most of the gun lobbying organizations are de facto white supremacist ones as well at this point.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [39 favorites]
I'm not sure anyone knows how they'd react to being arrested
The Frontline episode linked above has an incident like this right on camera. Guy is walking down the sidewalk talking on the phone, police seem to be interacting with someone else and then suddenly one of the police tries to grab to phone-talker and he reacts as anyone would when a strange person tries to grab you by surprise by pulling away. Well that was apparently enough to get him thrown to the ground for resisting.
Afterwards the documentarian is interviewing the cop and his answers are basically "We're cops so you have to overcome your instincts because we aren't there to hurt you" (paraphrasing). I had 2 reactions to that:
1) That's definitely not a true statement for POCs. And hasn't been since like the beginning of America.
2) As a woman, I am absolutely going to be on the defensive if someone I'm not paying attention to tries to grab me. As a white woman, I don't have to fear that my instinctual reaction will result in beatings or death but women of color absolutely do.
It's like cops can't understand why people would be scared of them or why people can't overcome their defensive instincts just because they're cops.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:59 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
The Frontline episode linked above has an incident like this right on camera. Guy is walking down the sidewalk talking on the phone, police seem to be interacting with someone else and then suddenly one of the police tries to grab to phone-talker and he reacts as anyone would when a strange person tries to grab you by surprise by pulling away. Well that was apparently enough to get him thrown to the ground for resisting.
Afterwards the documentarian is interviewing the cop and his answers are basically "We're cops so you have to overcome your instincts because we aren't there to hurt you" (paraphrasing). I had 2 reactions to that:
1) That's definitely not a true statement for POCs. And hasn't been since like the beginning of America.
2) As a woman, I am absolutely going to be on the defensive if someone I'm not paying attention to tries to grab me. As a white woman, I don't have to fear that my instinctual reaction will result in beatings or death but women of color absolutely do.
It's like cops can't understand why people would be scared of them or why people can't overcome their defensive instincts just because they're cops.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:59 AM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
My state (Ohio) has no law on the use of lethal force. It's terrifying to see the state name and flag up in the corner of the page and a big, fat NO LAW right in the center. Fucking terrifying.
I just read Washington's law. The rules of deadly force [pdf, enclosure 2 page 10] I was required to learn to qualify as an armed watch in the military were significantly more restrictive than that. We were required to have an 'interactive brief' on those rules (i.e., a test) every morning before taking the watch. We may or may not have been guarding (among other things) nuclear weapons. (I can neither confirm nor deny, etc.)
posted by ctmf at 12:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
I just read Washington's law. The rules of deadly force [pdf, enclosure 2 page 10] I was required to learn to qualify as an armed watch in the military were significantly more restrictive than that. We were required to have an 'interactive brief' on those rules (i.e., a test) every morning before taking the watch. We may or may not have been guarding (among other things) nuclear weapons. (I can neither confirm nor deny, etc.)
posted by ctmf at 12:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
My mom called me last week with news that a loved one had been found unconscious and had been put on a respirator. The kid survived because he was lucky.
But prior to knowing that he would survive, my mom's voice had the same calm as Lavish had. It was a horrible calm of shock. She was being driven to the hospital where (I had assumed) we would find out that our loved one was dead or comatose.
And when Lavish's calm broke and she began to beg and scream, I heard the sounds of my family's grief that would-have-been.
This country. I'm so sorry.
posted by angrycat at 12:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
But prior to knowing that he would survive, my mom's voice had the same calm as Lavish had. It was a horrible calm of shock. She was being driven to the hospital where (I had assumed) we would find out that our loved one was dead or comatose.
And when Lavish's calm broke and she began to beg and scream, I heard the sounds of my family's grief that would-have-been.
This country. I'm so sorry.
posted by angrycat at 12:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I just read Washington's law. The rules of deadly force [pdf, enclosure 2 page 10] I was required to learn to qualify as an armed watch in the military were significantly more restrictive than that. We were required to have an 'interactive brief' on those rules (i.e., a test) every morning before taking the watch. We may or may not have been guarding (among other things) nuclear weapons. (I can neither confirm nor deny, etc.)
Don't worry. People think the military's rules are too restrictive and they spend too much time investigating shootings, and they argue that should get to be more like US police.
The military envy the police because of how easy it is for them to kill people. That's how fucked up the situation is.
posted by zachlipton at 12:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Don't worry. People think the military's rules are too restrictive and they spend too much time investigating shootings, and they argue that should get to be more like US police.
The military envy the police because of how easy it is for them to kill people. That's how fucked up the situation is.
posted by zachlipton at 12:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I think there's some concrete steps we can propose that will address the problem:
1) Pass a law mandating that any time a cop kills someone, for any reason at all, they are instantly fired and get no pension. I don't care if it is the most justified killing in the universe, we don't need killers in uniform. Kill someone and your days as a cop are over, no exceptions, no loopholes, no rules to lawyer, just an instant and completely unthinking firing.
As we've seen any loopholes will be exploited, any rules will be lawyered until they mean nothing. So make it too simple to cheat. Someone dies, cop is fired. If it is unclear which individual cop did the killing then all involved cops are fired.
That may be the only thing that will ever actually cause the cops to exhibit even the slightest degree of restraint.
2) Disarm the police. All of them. Maybe you can make a case for permitting a single shotgun, loaded only with beanbag rounds, to be locked in the trunk of cop cars. But even that seems to be stretching things a bit. Take away their guns and it'll be a lot harder for the pigs to kill people.
3) Shatter the police unions. I'm normally almost religiously pro-union, but there's no need for police unions and all they do is protect the worst cops there are. Get rid of them.
4) While we're at it, get rid of all the special cop privileges. No more of the letting them have days to collude with other cops, see the evidence, and concoct a story. They get interviewed the same way civilians are, and as quickly, and by some non-police agency. If I can't have a day or seven to carefully watch the evidence with my lawyer and use that to fabricate a "statement" than they can't either.
None of that, of course, will ever happen until white America stops being so racist.
Which brings me back to my screaming fits of rage and terror, because I just don't see the problem being fixed and in the meantime people are being killed.
posted by sotonohito at 12:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
1) Pass a law mandating that any time a cop kills someone, for any reason at all, they are instantly fired and get no pension. I don't care if it is the most justified killing in the universe, we don't need killers in uniform. Kill someone and your days as a cop are over, no exceptions, no loopholes, no rules to lawyer, just an instant and completely unthinking firing.
As we've seen any loopholes will be exploited, any rules will be lawyered until they mean nothing. So make it too simple to cheat. Someone dies, cop is fired. If it is unclear which individual cop did the killing then all involved cops are fired.
That may be the only thing that will ever actually cause the cops to exhibit even the slightest degree of restraint.
2) Disarm the police. All of them. Maybe you can make a case for permitting a single shotgun, loaded only with beanbag rounds, to be locked in the trunk of cop cars. But even that seems to be stretching things a bit. Take away their guns and it'll be a lot harder for the pigs to kill people.
3) Shatter the police unions. I'm normally almost religiously pro-union, but there's no need for police unions and all they do is protect the worst cops there are. Get rid of them.
4) While we're at it, get rid of all the special cop privileges. No more of the letting them have days to collude with other cops, see the evidence, and concoct a story. They get interviewed the same way civilians are, and as quickly, and by some non-police agency. If I can't have a day or seven to carefully watch the evidence with my lawyer and use that to fabricate a "statement" than they can't either.
None of that, of course, will ever happen until white America stops being so racist.
Which brings me back to my screaming fits of rage and terror, because I just don't see the problem being fixed and in the meantime people are being killed.
posted by sotonohito at 12:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Jelani Cobb: A Police Killing In Baton Rouge
An adage of the street holds that it’s better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. But the gospel of self-protection is a false one. The gun found near Alton Sterling’s body did not make him any safer. The illegality of a concealed weapon becomes nearly an afterthought given that the day after Sterling’s death Philando Castile, who reportedly held a concealed-carry permit, was shot by police during a traffic stop in a suburb of St. Paul, Minnesota. In the wake of the slaughter in Newtown, Connecticut, in 2012, Wayne LaPierre, of the National Rifle Association, infamously remarked that “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” Men like Sterling and Castile were far more likely than most to encounter the former, and consequently died at the hands of those deemed to be the latter.posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
President Obama: All Americans should be deeply troubled by the fatal shootings of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, Louisiana and Philando Castile in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. We've seen such tragedies far too many times, and our hearts go out to the families and communities who've suffered such a painful loss.
Although I am constrained in commenting on the particular facts of these cases, I am encouraged that the U.S. Department of Justice has opened a civil rights investigation in Baton Rouge, and I have full confidence in their professionalism and their ability to conduct a thoughtful, thorough, and fair inquiry.
But regardless of the outcome of such investigations, what's clear is that these fatal shootings are not isolated incidents. They are symptomatic of the broader challenges within our criminal justice system, the racial disparities that appear across the system year after year, and the resulting lack of trust that exists between law enforcement and too many of the communities they serve.
To admit we've got a serious problem in no way contradicts our respect and appreciation for the vast majority of police officers who put their lives on the line to protect us every single day. It is to say that, as a nation, we can and must do better to institute the best practices that reduce the appearance or reality of racial bias in law enforcement.
That's why, two years ago, I set up a Task Force on 21st Century Policing that convened police officers, community leaders, and activists. Together, they came up with detailed recommendations on how to improve community policing. So even as officials continue to look into this week's tragic shootings, we also need communities to address the underlying fissures that lead to these incidents, and to implement those ideas that can make a difference. That's how we'll keep our communities safe. And that's how we can start restoring confidence that all people in this great nation are equal before the law.
In the meantime, all Americans should recognize the anger, frustration, and grief that so many Americans are feeling -- feelings that are being expressed in peaceful protests and vigils. Michelle and I share those feelings. Rather than fall into a predictable pattern of division and political posturing, let's reflect on what we can do better. Let's come together as a nation, and keep faith with one another, in order to ensure a future where all of our children know that their lives matter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Although I am constrained in commenting on the particular facts of these cases, I am encouraged that the U.S. Department of Justice has opened a civil rights investigation in Baton Rouge, and I have full confidence in their professionalism and their ability to conduct a thoughtful, thorough, and fair inquiry.
But regardless of the outcome of such investigations, what's clear is that these fatal shootings are not isolated incidents. They are symptomatic of the broader challenges within our criminal justice system, the racial disparities that appear across the system year after year, and the resulting lack of trust that exists between law enforcement and too many of the communities they serve.
To admit we've got a serious problem in no way contradicts our respect and appreciation for the vast majority of police officers who put their lives on the line to protect us every single day. It is to say that, as a nation, we can and must do better to institute the best practices that reduce the appearance or reality of racial bias in law enforcement.
That's why, two years ago, I set up a Task Force on 21st Century Policing that convened police officers, community leaders, and activists. Together, they came up with detailed recommendations on how to improve community policing. So even as officials continue to look into this week's tragic shootings, we also need communities to address the underlying fissures that lead to these incidents, and to implement those ideas that can make a difference. That's how we'll keep our communities safe. And that's how we can start restoring confidence that all people in this great nation are equal before the law.
In the meantime, all Americans should recognize the anger, frustration, and grief that so many Americans are feeling -- feelings that are being expressed in peaceful protests and vigils. Michelle and I share those feelings. Rather than fall into a predictable pattern of division and political posturing, let's reflect on what we can do better. Let's come together as a nation, and keep faith with one another, in order to ensure a future where all of our children know that their lives matter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
for anyone that's in the east bay and interested, there's a rally ("For #AltonSterling and #PhilandoCastile, and for all the women trafficked and exploited by the rapists and murderers in Oakland Police Department and across the Bay Area.") in oakland tonight at 7 pm at oscar grant plaza.
posted by burgerrr at 12:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 12:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
i posted the Castile video on facebook last night after seeing tweets that it had been removed. this response from a longtime acquaintance is just making me sick.
Well, God forbid the officers aren't happy with the situation. And shame on this woman for not comforting her daughter in the back while a hysterical man with a gun sticking through the window screams at her. The outcome of this is THERE'S A GUY WHO DID NOTHING WRONG BLEEDING TO DEATH IN THE FUCKING CAR.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [35 favorites]
She is talking very calmly explaining everything while sitting next to him filming. And it was very sad to see her not comfort her own daughter ! Obviously, with the back ground obsenities from the officers, they aren't happy with the situation either ! Going to be interesting to hear the outcome of this !
Well, God forbid the officers aren't happy with the situation. And shame on this woman for not comforting her daughter in the back while a hysterical man with a gun sticking through the window screams at her. The outcome of this is THERE'S A GUY WHO DID NOTHING WRONG BLEEDING TO DEATH IN THE FUCKING CAR.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [35 favorites]
I am so, so tired of reading about American citizens being murdered by police.
I've done what I can. I wish there was more.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've done what I can. I wish there was more.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
KING: Black police union in St. Louis releases scathing evaluation of their own department, call for the resignation of Police Chief Sam Dotson : On Thursday, in a Daily News exclusive, The Ethical Society of Police has released a scathing, comprehensive 112 page evaluation of the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department. At a scheduled forum Thursday evening, black police officers from the Ethical Society of Police told The News that they plan to publicly call for the immediate resignation of Police Chief Sam Dotson based on the damning findings of their report, which is embedded below.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
How was she supposed to comfort her daughter when there's a man pointing a gun at her, telling her to keep her hands where he can see them, and yeah he just shot up the innocent man sitting next to her?
I'm so, so thankful she recorded as much as she could.
posted by yesster at 12:43 PM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
I'm so, so thankful she recorded as much as she could.
posted by yesster at 12:43 PM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
To admit we've got a serious problem in no way contradicts our respect and appreciation for the vast majority of police officers who put their lives on the line to protect us every single day.What do you mean "our"?
I've got no respect for the pigs. They lost it long, long, ago.
It is possible for the to earn my respect, this requires them to stop being pigs and become police officers. This requires action from the supposed "good cops" everyone keeps telling me must exist, it specifically requires them to start arresting the bad cops instead of enabling them.
And what does he mean "put their lives on the line"? Pizza delivery drivers have a greater chance of dying on the job than cops do. They're not brave, as the videos demonstrated they're pants wetting cowards.
I'm willing, even after all this, to grant the police the opportunity to earn respect. But right now they have none from me.
posted by sotonohito at 12:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Police work is less dangerous in both absolute and relative terms than farming, construction work, or trucking.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Police officer doesn't even rank in the Top 10 list of dangerous professions.
Dangerous to whom?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Dangerous to whom?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Looks like the attempts to smear Castile are already underway, basically for DWB. Because of course, police never repeatedly hassle poor people and PoC for minor infractions that cost them the same money required to address them.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:56 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:56 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Police officer doesn't even rank in the Top 10 list of dangerous professions.
>...and to the extent that it is dangerous to life and limb, that's mostly just because cops spend a lot of their time in cars. Mostly being a cop is dangerous the same way that driving a delivery van is.
Census Data of Fatal Occupational Injuries, Homicides
2014
Protective Services Workers (PSW - Firefighters, police, security, etc.): 78 total, 65 intentional shooting
Sales & Related (S&R - Cashiers, clerks, supervisors, etc.): 107 total, 85 intentional shooting
PSW Transportation Fatalities (TF): 77, exceeded by agriculture, construction, management, not even 10% of the fatalities in Transportation and material moving occupations; slightly higher than delivery van, way lower than driving a rig.
2013
PSW: 65 total, 56 intentional shooting
S&R: 99 total, 81 intentional shooting
2012
PSW: 90 total, 72 intentional shooting
S&R: 113 total, 99 intentional shooting
2011
PSW: 112 total, 94 intentional shooting
S&R: 105 total, 88 intentional shooting
2010
PSW: 97 total, 79 intentional shooting
S&R: 134 total, 111 intentional shooting
2009
PSW: 89 total, 75 intentional shooting
S&R: 144 total, 120 intentional shooting
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
>...and to the extent that it is dangerous to life and limb, that's mostly just because cops spend a lot of their time in cars. Mostly being a cop is dangerous the same way that driving a delivery van is.
Census Data of Fatal Occupational Injuries, Homicides
2014
Protective Services Workers (PSW - Firefighters, police, security, etc.): 78 total, 65 intentional shooting
Sales & Related (S&R - Cashiers, clerks, supervisors, etc.): 107 total, 85 intentional shooting
PSW Transportation Fatalities (TF): 77, exceeded by agriculture, construction, management, not even 10% of the fatalities in Transportation and material moving occupations; slightly higher than delivery van, way lower than driving a rig.
2013
PSW: 65 total, 56 intentional shooting
S&R: 99 total, 81 intentional shooting
2012
PSW: 90 total, 72 intentional shooting
S&R: 113 total, 99 intentional shooting
2011
PSW: 112 total, 94 intentional shooting
S&R: 105 total, 88 intentional shooting
2010
PSW: 97 total, 79 intentional shooting
S&R: 134 total, 111 intentional shooting
2009
PSW: 89 total, 75 intentional shooting
S&R: 144 total, 120 intentional shooting
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
She is talking very calmly explaining everything while sitting next to him filming. And it was very sad to see her not comfort her own daughter !
there's that empathy gap. us white people really are fuckin monsters.
posted by nadawi at 1:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
there's that empathy gap. us white people really are fuckin monsters.
posted by nadawi at 1:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Police unions aren't regular unions, they're basically criminal organizations. Break them all.
What you're saying here is, "Police aren't allowed to join unions."
That same line of reasoning should be leading you to conclude that we should just get rid of the police and just go without.
No, all employees should be able to form and join a union, period. You can tell me that their union needs to be dissolved and reformed from the ground up but busting unions is bad and just exacerbates wealth inequality which is at least an indirect contributing factor to racist police. I'm not saying that the police need to have a union or they'll shoot more POCs, just that if you want to support unions, you need to support all unions.
Burn it down and re-build, but don't forget to re-build. Besides, a well functioning police union would clear the way to get rid of bad cops and make sure good cops get promoted.
posted by VTX at 1:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
What you're saying here is, "Police aren't allowed to join unions."
That same line of reasoning should be leading you to conclude that we should just get rid of the police and just go without.
No, all employees should be able to form and join a union, period. You can tell me that their union needs to be dissolved and reformed from the ground up but busting unions is bad and just exacerbates wealth inequality which is at least an indirect contributing factor to racist police. I'm not saying that the police need to have a union or they'll shoot more POCs, just that if you want to support unions, you need to support all unions.
Burn it down and re-build, but don't forget to re-build. Besides, a well functioning police union would clear the way to get rid of bad cops and make sure good cops get promoted.
posted by VTX at 1:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
from zombieflanders' link:
Andreas @aantonop 22m22 minutes ago
@Tom_Winter So harassed and endangered 31 times without any conviction for anything & killed the 32nd time. Driving while Black & executed
posted by yesster at 1:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Andreas @aantonop 22m22 minutes ago
@Tom_Winter So harassed and endangered 31 times without any conviction for anything & killed the 32nd time. Driving while Black & executed
posted by yesster at 1:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
i don't support prisons as they run now. but if we're going to have prisons, then lock the murderous, lying, law breaking cops up.
i absolutely support unions, but as long as large swaths of the country aren't able to have unions, then bust the fuck out of the police unions. they can have them back (and they can be just as powerful and no more than all the rest of the unions) when we all get them.
posted by nadawi at 1:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
i absolutely support unions, but as long as large swaths of the country aren't able to have unions, then bust the fuck out of the police unions. they can have them back (and they can be just as powerful and no more than all the rest of the unions) when we all get them.
posted by nadawi at 1:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Harmon Leon: Here are 8 white people who pointed guns at police officers — and didn’t get killed
posted by zombieflanders at 1:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 1:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
For MPLS-St Paul mefites: there is a vigil starting at 5:30 at the school where Philandro Castile worked, located at 998 Selby Avenue in St Paul.
I may go, depending on what time I can get over there - I'm not sure how late it's going to run.
posted by Frowner at 1:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I may go, depending on what time I can get over there - I'm not sure how late it's going to run.
posted by Frowner at 1:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
What you're saying here is, "Police aren't allowed to join unions."
Are you even vaguely aware of what a police union is and what it does?
Tell you what, if they want one that functions like a normal Labour Union they can have that. This current Mafia shit? Uh-uh, no fucking way, root it out and burn it.
posted by Artw at 1:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
Are you even vaguely aware of what a police union is and what it does?
Tell you what, if they want one that functions like a normal Labour Union they can have that. This current Mafia shit? Uh-uh, no fucking way, root it out and burn it.
posted by Artw at 1:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
From Ijeoma Olouo, things that white people and non-black POC can do:
If you want to know what you can do - and no, you should not be asking a black person what you can do to fix the white supremacist murder of black people - but if you want to know some things you can do RIGHT FUCKING NOW here are some tweets I just posted:posted by AceRock at 1:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [32 favorites]
1) Do you know your city's police accountability procedures?
2) Do your police have any provisions for citizen oversight?
3) Is there a civilian oversight panel to review police shootings and misconduct?
4) if you do not know this you can google your city with police accountability/review procedures
5) what is the threshold for indicting police for misconduct? Example: in Seattle (where I live) you have to prove willful malice.
6) Do your police have body cameras?
7) When you do your research, if you don't like the answers to these questions, if they do not hold police accountable, here's what u can do
8) Demand your city council member make police reform a priority. If they won't, vote them out - recruit friends to do the same.
9) Demand that your mayor do the same. If he/she won't vote them out & recruit friends to do the same.
10) Do not give money or votes to any candidate who will not make police reform a priority. Make sure they know that is a requirement
11) Demand that your sheriff and local DA's office do the same.
12) just google your city name + city council - all the contact info should be there.
13) along with phone numbers, email addresses - all the info u need to remind them that black lives WILL matter whether they want it or not
14) Do this today, do this tomorrow, do this every day like your life depends on it - ours actually does.
Police reform should be on the lips of every local politician in this country bc they should know they will not get your support without it
Ok? I shouldn't have to do this. I shouldn't have to process this and lay it all out while I'm fucking crying but I did so take some action.
“He remembered their names. He remembered who couldn’t have milk. He knew what they could have to eat and what they couldn’t,” Joan Edman, a recently retired paraprofessional at the school, told TIME. “This was a real guy. He made a real contribution. Yes, black lives matter. But this man mattered."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Seattle Vigil: Not This Time Vigil for Alton Sterling victim of Homicide by Police. (This event was made before the second shooting happened, later that day) 6PM PDT, Westlake Park, Downtown Seattle.
Portland, OR March: This Can't be Justice!. 7pm PDT, Pioneer Courthouse Square.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:25 PM on July 7, 2016
Portland, OR March: This Can't be Justice!. 7pm PDT, Pioneer Courthouse Square.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:25 PM on July 7, 2016
Dangerous to whom?
Surely you're not trying to take my comment out of the context to which I was replying to suggest I was saying police aren't dangerous to the public. Surely you're not doing that.
I kinda feel like this line of discussion started when I said that yes, police work is dangerous and yes, you really can be attacked. That statement is demonstrably true. Citing examples of that isn't helpful here, though, so I haven't tried to defend that statement.
I never claimed it was the most dangerous profession, or even close to it, and the substance of my original comment was to point at how police training spins cops up to see more danger than is actually present, and how that is often racially coded. It's frustrating to see a fixation on that one statement rather than a consideration for how the training encourages this sort of mindset.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Surely you're not trying to take my comment out of the context to which I was replying to suggest I was saying police aren't dangerous to the public. Surely you're not doing that.
I kinda feel like this line of discussion started when I said that yes, police work is dangerous and yes, you really can be attacked. That statement is demonstrably true. Citing examples of that isn't helpful here, though, so I haven't tried to defend that statement.
I never claimed it was the most dangerous profession, or even close to it, and the substance of my original comment was to point at how police training spins cops up to see more danger than is actually present, and how that is often racially coded. It's frustrating to see a fixation on that one statement rather than a consideration for how the training encourages this sort of mindset.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Add to the list of Things One Can Do is to support advocacy for electronic freedom. Videos are, I think, a major key to turning the tide. These cases are now front page news, and not just police plotter page 19 stories. Chicago giving McCarthy the boot would never have happened without the Laquan video. And citizen cell phone videos are a lot harder to obstruct, destroy, or wave away. We need to insure that the right to film is not chipped away. Reynolds is a fucking hero for continuing to film.
posted by jetsetsc at 1:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by jetsetsc at 1:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Tell you what, if they want one that functions like a normal Labour Union they can have that. This current Mafia shit? Uh-uh, no fucking way, root it out and burn it.
Yes, that is precisely what I've been saying.
posted by VTX at 1:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, that is precisely what I've been saying.
posted by VTX at 1:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Being Black is Exhausting, and Here's Why.
For many black Americans, watching black people die on camera feels like a job.
It’s not something they’re paid for, unless they are a journalist. But it can still feel like an obligation, because every time a new video is released of a black person being shot by police, black people know that America’s response to that video will affect their lives.
This is why when a judge forced Chicago officials to release video of the 2014 shooting of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald by Officer Jason Van Dyke, a group of young activists used the hashtag #BeforeYouWatch to encourage people to take a collective breath to brace themselves.
Support your friends, some wrote along with the hashtag. Remember that we all process pain differently, and this will be painful.
posted by Rumple at 1:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
For many black Americans, watching black people die on camera feels like a job.
It’s not something they’re paid for, unless they are a journalist. But it can still feel like an obligation, because every time a new video is released of a black person being shot by police, black people know that America’s response to that video will affect their lives.
This is why when a judge forced Chicago officials to release video of the 2014 shooting of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald by Officer Jason Van Dyke, a group of young activists used the hashtag #BeforeYouWatch to encourage people to take a collective breath to brace themselves.
Support your friends, some wrote along with the hashtag. Remember that we all process pain differently, and this will be painful.
posted by Rumple at 1:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I feel like it's a little weird that people insist that everyone watch the videos. People have myriad reasons for not wanting to that can be entirely valid.
posted by zutalors! at 1:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 1:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Surely you're not trying to take my comment out of the context to which I was replying to suggest I was saying police aren't dangerous to the public.
It was a play on words. And don't call me Shirley.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:39 PM on July 7, 2016
It was a play on words. And don't call me Shirley.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:39 PM on July 7, 2016
I feel like it's a little weird that people insist that everyone watch the videos
FWIW, the local CBS station has a transcript (scroll down.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:42 PM on July 7, 2016
FWIW, the local CBS station has a transcript (scroll down.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:42 PM on July 7, 2016
I was just listening to NPR and heard Robert Siegel (the same guy who called Michael Brown a 'thug' on air, yes, he still works there) interview a "professor of criminal justice" on the Castile shooting. It could be summarized as, "submit to the officer and follow his instructions and nobody gets hurt". Some liberal media.
posted by indubitable at 1:46 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 1:46 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Chicago Rally: Protest Police Murder of Alton Sterling! 5pm CDT, at State and Jackson in the Loop.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by spinifex23 at 1:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
...but, unless more verifiable facts have come out that contradict this, that's exactly what he did. he followed directions and he was murdered by the police.
posted by nadawi at 1:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
Earlier today I heard someone on NPR refer to Philando Castile's murder as an "encounter" with the police. It's sickeningly easy to twist language around in order to downplay and disregard. Murder. It was murder. Call it murder.
posted by jesourie at 1:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by jesourie at 1:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
Freeze and put your hands up.
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I feel like it's a little weird that people insist that everyone watch the videos
I've been easing into them. First, it was moving the slider along, hitting playing, then jumping to another spot. Sorta of like getting random screen grabs. Today I've managed to watch a few seconds of each video at time. Tomorrow I think I'll be able to watch one video all the way through.
After that stage, I'll be able to turn on the sound. Maybe.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been easing into them. First, it was moving the slider along, hitting playing, then jumping to another spot. Sorta of like getting random screen grabs. Today I've managed to watch a few seconds of each video at time. Tomorrow I think I'll be able to watch one video all the way through.
After that stage, I'll be able to turn on the sound. Maybe.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
#PhilandoCastile Funds For Family and another from Phil's sister.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
This just in from Twitter - you have to say you have a permit THEN say you're armed, otherwise of course the cop is going to shoot you. Clearly Castile was at fault.
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
...but, unless more verifiable facts have come out that contradict this, that's exactly what he did. he followed directions and he was murdered by the police.
He absolutely did. But also, people think they know how they're going to act in these situations and they don't. One thing that really pisses me off about these discussions is that there's this idea that black people, especially children, are just supposed to know how to interact with police, like it's their job or something, but for many it's the first time they've really had an interaction and they have a natural or instinctive reaction.
posted by zutalors! at 1:52 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
He absolutely did. But also, people think they know how they're going to act in these situations and they don't. One thing that really pisses me off about these discussions is that there's this idea that black people, especially children, are just supposed to know how to interact with police, like it's their job or something, but for many it's the first time they've really had an interaction and they have a natural or instinctive reaction.
posted by zutalors! at 1:52 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
and yes! you file a false report to cover up murder committed by you or a fellow officer, you're charged under the felony murder rule. lets try that on for a few years, see what happens
I look periodically to see if I can find any news of it, but there is still no indication that Clarence Habersham Jr has been charged for his egregiously false statements. The most generous explanation I can come up with for this is that they are waiting to see if they manage to convict Slager for shooting Walter Scott but that's a level of restraint that doesn't get shown for private citizens.
As far as I am concerned, the failure to file against him sends its own message even if it's based on an increased chance of conviction. If NC supports an accessory after the fact charge then that's what should have been filed the very same day as Slager's charge.
posted by phearlez at 1:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I look periodically to see if I can find any news of it, but there is still no indication that Clarence Habersham Jr has been charged for his egregiously false statements. The most generous explanation I can come up with for this is that they are waiting to see if they manage to convict Slager for shooting Walter Scott but that's a level of restraint that doesn't get shown for private citizens.
As far as I am concerned, the failure to file against him sends its own message even if it's based on an increased chance of conviction. If NC supports an accessory after the fact charge then that's what should have been filed the very same day as Slager's charge.
posted by phearlez at 1:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
...but, unless more verifiable facts have come out that contradict this, that's exactly what he did. he followed directions and he was murdered by the police.
Yes.
posted by indubitable at 1:53 PM on July 7, 2016
Yes.
posted by indubitable at 1:53 PM on July 7, 2016
Freeze and put your hands up.
Exactly. Two contradicting commands, which did you mean sir?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:55 PM on July 7, 2016
Exactly. Two contradicting commands, which did you mean sir?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:55 PM on July 7, 2016
The Two Men Who Shaped the Story Of Alton Sterling's Death.
Bottom line is that we have these videos because the people who took them didn't turn them over to the police. Because they don't trust the police.
He absolutely did. But also, people think they know how they're going to act in these situations and they don't.
The police seem most guilty of that these days.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Bottom line is that we have these videos because the people who took them didn't turn them over to the police. Because they don't trust the police.
He absolutely did. But also, people think they know how they're going to act in these situations and they don't.
The police seem most guilty of that these days.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Two contradicting commands, which did you mean sir?
STOP RESISTING!
posted by zombieflanders at 1:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
STOP RESISTING!
posted by zombieflanders at 1:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
msnbc is reporting that they obtained 600 pages of complaints and investigations relating to the two cops involved in the Baton Rouge murder. Insane!
posted by futz at 2:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by futz at 2:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
He absolutely did. But also, people think they know how they're going to act in these situations and they don't.
The police seem most guilty of that these days.
Umm, to be clear I meant people who want to criticize the actions of the victims - they think they know how they would act or how someone should act to "comply with police". Which I mentioned in the rest of my comment.
posted by zutalors! at 2:04 PM on July 7, 2016
Charles Pierce: Why 'All Lives Matter' is a dodge:
Amanda Marcotte: NRA’s offensive hypocrisy: When will the organization demand justice for black gun owners shot by police?:
In most cases, it has been used by white people who are perfectly willing to admit that all their lives matter while, simultaneously, breaking a lot of rock to support and excuse (largely white) police officers who have been shown to be quick on the trigger to shoot black people who are selling CDs on the street, or breaking neck of black people who sell loosies on the sidewalk.
By using this dodge, they avail themselves of the privilege of their own cultural paranoia and of the protection against imaginary predators that their cultural paranoia concocts for them. This cultural paranoia, of course, is what keeps Wayne LaPierre in the luxury to which he has become accustomed, and it is also the reason that Philando Castile was killed for doing precisely what LaPierre has advised all his audiences to do since the day Adam Lanza shot up an elementary school classroom in Newtown, Connecticut.
Amanda Marcotte: NRA’s offensive hypocrisy: When will the organization demand justice for black gun owners shot by police?:
Guns are legal in this country. Louisiana is an open carry state. Minnesota allows concealed carry. Police officers in these states know full well that people have a legal right to carry. They have, according to conservatives themselves, no reason to believe that a man with a gun is a bad guy. Why, he could very well be one of those good guys with a gun, at the ready to stop crime, that we keep hearing about from conservatives.posted by palindromic at 2:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
Which brings up a critical question: Where is the gun rights lobby?
Here are two American citizens that were killed while doing what the NRA claims is a constitutional right. Surely this must be a gross injustice in the eyes of the NRA! Surely they will be demanding action, petitioning congressmen, demanding the Department of Justice to step forward and make sure that every American has a right to arm themselves without fear of being gunned down by the police! Right?
The Counted - The Guardian has an interactive feature covering every police killing in the US since 2015.The count is now 566, barely 3.5 hours later.
The fact that the last digit of that count is poised to flip to "2" is literally making me tear up at my desk.
posted by Etrigan at 12:31 PM on July 7 [4 favorites +] [!]
posted by Westringia F. at 2:07 PM on July 7, 2016
msnbc is reporting that they obtained 600 pages of complaints and investigations relating to the two cops involved in the Baton Rouge murder. Insane!
well, msnbc is misreporting then.
Read the last sentence.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 2:11 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
well, msnbc is misreporting then.
Read the last sentence.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 2:11 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
There was an anonymous tip about a guy in red shirt waving a gun around, threatening people. Which makes me wonder if someone called that in to get him arrested or killed.
My understanding is that it doesn't matter, because anonymous tips don't give the officers probable cause. They had to manufacture that once they arrived.
You do not need probable cause for a Terry stop, you merely need reasonable suspicion. Once you have a Terry stop you have a Terry search, which is in theory just a cursory check in the service of officer safety - are you carrying a weapon on you? I know a lot of you are - but in reality means they're going to paw through your pockets and things pretty much without limit (theoretically anything within your easy reach so keep that backpack zipped) and maybe find something unthreatening but that they can charge you with. So that half-burned roach can turn into a possession charge.
The reasonable suspicion standard is so trivial as to be effectively nothing. If a cop rolls up on you and wants to go through your pockets, they are going to do so. It's remotely possible that you will have some traction after-the-fact if the cop is unbelievably incompetent at stringing together some lame-ass reason, but probably not. If you had any sort of open warrant on you it won't matter for purposes of exclusing evidence.
But yes, this is what happens when you call the cops. [violent imagery herein]
posted by phearlez at 2:20 PM on July 7, 2016
My understanding is that it doesn't matter, because anonymous tips don't give the officers probable cause. They had to manufacture that once they arrived.
You do not need probable cause for a Terry stop, you merely need reasonable suspicion. Once you have a Terry stop you have a Terry search, which is in theory just a cursory check in the service of officer safety - are you carrying a weapon on you? I know a lot of you are - but in reality means they're going to paw through your pockets and things pretty much without limit (theoretically anything within your easy reach so keep that backpack zipped) and maybe find something unthreatening but that they can charge you with. So that half-burned roach can turn into a possession charge.
The reasonable suspicion standard is so trivial as to be effectively nothing. If a cop rolls up on you and wants to go through your pockets, they are going to do so. It's remotely possible that you will have some traction after-the-fact if the cop is unbelievably incompetent at stringing together some lame-ass reason, but probably not. If you had any sort of open warrant on you it won't matter for purposes of exclusing evidence.
But yes, this is what happens when you call the cops. [violent imagery herein]
posted by phearlez at 2:20 PM on July 7, 2016
A black man adopted by white parents tells his story of an encounter with Denver police in 2009. [YT video]
All he did was comply quietly with officers, then ask to see a warrant, then he hit the officer's fists with his face and was falsely accused of going for an officer's gun. He got a gun put to his head and 42 stitches for his face. Because he otherwise complied and had the nerve to ask to see a warrant. According to a commenter: "Denver Police cleared all the officers of wrongdoing and they remain on the force today. The Denver City Council quietly approved an out of court settlement with the family for 795,000.00."
Judge orders two Ohio brothers arrested in park with BB guns to write essays about Tamir Rice.
The boys also had to pay court costs ($160 and $150) and perform community service. Seems like harsher punishment than the officer who killed Rice was given by the justice system.
Forgot my periods in my earlier post:
.
.
posted by lord_wolf at 2:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
All he did was comply quietly with officers, then ask to see a warrant, then he hit the officer's fists with his face and was falsely accused of going for an officer's gun. He got a gun put to his head and 42 stitches for his face. Because he otherwise complied and had the nerve to ask to see a warrant. According to a commenter: "Denver Police cleared all the officers of wrongdoing and they remain on the force today. The Denver City Council quietly approved an out of court settlement with the family for 795,000.00."
Judge orders two Ohio brothers arrested in park with BB guns to write essays about Tamir Rice.
The boys also had to pay court costs ($160 and $150) and perform community service. Seems like harsher punishment than the officer who killed Rice was given by the justice system.
Forgot my periods in my earlier post:
.
.
posted by lord_wolf at 2:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Artw: This just in from Twitter - you have to say you have a permit THEN say you're armed, otherwise of course the cop is going to shoot you.
Advice I've read so far which always works 100% of the time according to the people offering it: Always get your license and registration out before the officer reaches your car. Never reach for anything in your car while the officer is walking toward it, including your license and registration. Never mention your gun. Always mention your gun.
These don't count as advice. These are magic charms, talismans to ward off unpredictable death.
posted by clawsoon at 2:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
Advice I've read so far which always works 100% of the time according to the people offering it: Always get your license and registration out before the officer reaches your car. Never reach for anything in your car while the officer is walking toward it, including your license and registration. Never mention your gun. Always mention your gun.
These don't count as advice. These are magic charms, talismans to ward off unpredictable death.
posted by clawsoon at 2:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
Do Black People Have Second Amendment Rights?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:36 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:36 PM on July 7, 2016
beyonce had a moment of silence at her show tonight where the names of those killed by police were displayed on a giant screen on stage
reminds me of this claudia rankine piece
posted by nadawi at 2:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
reminds me of this claudia rankine piece
posted by nadawi at 2:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Which photos of Alton Sterling did the media use?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:54 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:54 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Looks like Obama is going to give a statement about the Alton Sterling and Philando Castile shootings in about half an hour when he arrives in Poland.
posted by yasaman at 2:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 2:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Interesting proposal in this Twitter thread from Toronto activist Andray Domise: Require liability insurance for cops.
posted by emeiji at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by emeiji at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
OK then. I am now seeing news about a black man found hanging in Piedmont Park that coincided closely in time with the KKK being present. Initially officials said it was a suicide, but outraged citizens called it a modern day lynching, so now it looks like the FBI is investigating. So I don't know what the FUCK is going on right now. Something terrible.
posted by prefpara at 3:23 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 3:23 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
President Obama's speech livestream (starting shortly)
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's a link to the livestream of Obama's remarks. He hasn't started yet.
posted by yasaman at 3:38 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by yasaman at 3:38 PM on July 7, 2016
I just got back from my local sheriff's office where I had to get fingerprints done for volunteer work I do. Sitting in one of those pamphlet stands at the counter was about 20 copies of this anti-blm propaganda piece from the WSJ, printed off from the internet full of black-on-black crime derails and misused statistics. This is supposed to be a public office that's for all people. The police are supposed to protect all people. I can't imagine what it's like to be a person of color and to need to go into that office and have it shoved in your face that no, the police really do not care about you, and in fact they're doing everything they can to deny that there's even a problem in the first place. Worse yet, the fingerprint window shares a window with the concealed carry window, so people getting concealed carry permits for guns can read all about how blacks are violent criminals that deserve what they get.
It seems extra horrible and inappropriate that this is there after two unarmed black men have been killed execution style in 2 days. I really have no words.
posted by zug at 3:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
It seems extra horrible and inappropriate that this is there after two unarmed black men have been killed execution style in 2 days. I really have no words.
posted by zug at 3:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
We should care about everyone's concerns and not dismiss any of them. Also, I made a task force.
posted by anarch at 3:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by anarch at 3:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Did he say anything? I missed it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:01 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:01 PM on July 7, 2016
No.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:02 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:02 PM on July 7, 2016
The police are supposed to protect all people.
This is not the job of the police. "No duty to protect."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is not the job of the police. "No duty to protect."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, he seemed... like a parent talking to kid he's given up on...
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
That's what I thought, but I wasn't paying full attention so I kind of hoped I was wrong.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:03 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:03 PM on July 7, 2016
I was surprised by Obama's remarks too. He seemed very distant, with occasional moments of passion but lots of long pauses. Which, in fairness, is about how I've felt since yesterday. And a bunch of obligatory "just because black lives matter doesn't mean blue lives don't matter too" stuff that I'm really not in the mood to hear right now.
posted by zachlipton at 4:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 4:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's also 1am in Poland.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:07 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:07 PM on July 7, 2016
Yeah, it was all very Disappointed Dad Who's Resigned to His Children's Terrible and At This Point Deeply Entrenched Life Choices. And he did seem tired, but he just came off a long flight and it's the middle of the night in Poland.
posted by yasaman at 4:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 4:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
1) Do you know your city's police accountability procedures?
2) Do your police have any provisions for citizen oversight?
3) Is there a civilian oversight panel to review police shootings and misconduct?
4) if you do not know this you can google your city with police accountability/review procedures
I did this and it lead me to this document put out by the DoJ, Citizen Review of Police: Approaches and Implementation. In it, they review police oversight systems in the following places - Berkeley, Flint, Minneapolis, Orange County, Portland, Rochester, St. Paul, San Francisco and Tucson. It's from 2001, but it's pretty interesting.
posted by triggerfinger at 4:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
2) Do your police have any provisions for citizen oversight?
3) Is there a civilian oversight panel to review police shootings and misconduct?
4) if you do not know this you can google your city with police accountability/review procedures
I did this and it lead me to this document put out by the DoJ, Citizen Review of Police: Approaches and Implementation. In it, they review police oversight systems in the following places - Berkeley, Flint, Minneapolis, Orange County, Portland, Rochester, St. Paul, San Francisco and Tucson. It's from 2001, but it's pretty interesting.
posted by triggerfinger at 4:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mayor Murray here in Seattle just gave a press conference on police accountability and reform. It was ... not very reassuring. Seattlish tweeted a whole bunch and you can see others retweeted. Short version: let's create a new "independent" civic body to oversee the police but he won't say if he'll push for the union contract to include it. Plus he compared people calling for open union contract negotiations to being like Scott Walker in wanting to screw with unions. You know, he of the public union busting ... except police unions.
Grrrr.
posted by R343L at 4:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Grrrr.
posted by R343L at 4:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think police need to be unarmed. This is my reason why:
I am a social worker. My job is to go into homes of strangers who need help. I have no scanner, no back ups, no rap sheets. I don't know who lives in the building or what's going on. When I helped people find housing, I got information on crime background checks. I know I've worked with all the types of " bad guys and gals" people with guilty charges ranging from murders and sex offences all the way to crimes of being homeless (loitering, tresspassing and such). Guess what? I've never been shot at. I've been threatened a few times, had uncomfortable conversations, been hit on, been witness to other violence, drug deals, abuse and neglect but I've done it alone and I've done it without wepons. My coworkers are expected to do the same. Every day. And reports of things do happen, but it's super rare and some basic safety goes a long way.
Here is a brief story,
I was in an office on a site alone, and this women who is super high on crack corners me. She is threatening, irrational and not making much since. I know she has a serious mental illness and done some time in prision. What do I do? I talk to her. Try to figure out what's going on. And litterally offered to help her. She left my office to get something that I could help her with, got distracted and fell asleep. No harm done. No police involvement, no wepons, no phones. Just me my wits and my heart.
It's part of the job I accept that I get workmans comp if something goes wrong. People don't know exactly where I am, there is no backup. I don't have backgrounds or history. If I die, I die.
If thousands of social workers are expected and experienced to help these people, why can't the police handle it? There are no special laws protecting me.
Yes, there are reasons to use force but they are rare, and generally enough time to call in back up.
This makes me so angry.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [161 favorites]
I am a social worker. My job is to go into homes of strangers who need help. I have no scanner, no back ups, no rap sheets. I don't know who lives in the building or what's going on. When I helped people find housing, I got information on crime background checks. I know I've worked with all the types of " bad guys and gals" people with guilty charges ranging from murders and sex offences all the way to crimes of being homeless (loitering, tresspassing and such). Guess what? I've never been shot at. I've been threatened a few times, had uncomfortable conversations, been hit on, been witness to other violence, drug deals, abuse and neglect but I've done it alone and I've done it without wepons. My coworkers are expected to do the same. Every day. And reports of things do happen, but it's super rare and some basic safety goes a long way.
Here is a brief story,
I was in an office on a site alone, and this women who is super high on crack corners me. She is threatening, irrational and not making much since. I know she has a serious mental illness and done some time in prision. What do I do? I talk to her. Try to figure out what's going on. And litterally offered to help her. She left my office to get something that I could help her with, got distracted and fell asleep. No harm done. No police involvement, no wepons, no phones. Just me my wits and my heart.
It's part of the job I accept that I get workmans comp if something goes wrong. People don't know exactly where I am, there is no backup. I don't have backgrounds or history. If I die, I die.
If thousands of social workers are expected and experienced to help these people, why can't the police handle it? There are no special laws protecting me.
Yes, there are reasons to use force but they are rare, and generally enough time to call in back up.
This makes me so angry.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [161 favorites]
Flowchart for Seattle police accountability.
I'm starting to wonder if we should hold an investigation into who shoved Ed Murray's head so far up his own ass, because that's gotta be a felony.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:45 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm starting to wonder if we should hold an investigation into who shoved Ed Murray's head so far up his own ass, because that's gotta be a felony.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:45 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
July 6, 2016 6:51 PM
Sterling is the 560th person killed by police this year in the United States.
July 7, 2016 4:46 PM
"Unknown" is the 566th person killed by police this year in the United States.
posted by standardasparagus at 4:46 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sterling is the 560th person killed by police this year in the United States.
July 7, 2016 4:46 PM
"Unknown" is the 566th person killed by police this year in the United States.
posted by standardasparagus at 4:46 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Advice I've read so far which always works 100% of the time
Have a really good friend who does the whole conceal carry thing. Years ago, when I was considering going for a CCW license, I asked him what the procedure was for getting pulled over while carrying. He said the first thing you do is inform the officer. The officer will possibly ask you to step out of the vehicle so he can see all movements. Will probably ask you to point to where the gun is located. And then the rest of it is supposed to be the normal business of a traffic stop. My friend, who is white, said the 3 times he's been stopped, he and the cop will end up in a brief conversation about guns. Friend usually carries a Glock, which is standard issue in a lot of police departments, so he and the cop would talk shop.
That's how such a stop is supposed to go, and how it does go for most white people who carry. There's utterly no excuse for what happened in MN.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Have a really good friend who does the whole conceal carry thing. Years ago, when I was considering going for a CCW license, I asked him what the procedure was for getting pulled over while carrying. He said the first thing you do is inform the officer. The officer will possibly ask you to step out of the vehicle so he can see all movements. Will probably ask you to point to where the gun is located. And then the rest of it is supposed to be the normal business of a traffic stop. My friend, who is white, said the 3 times he's been stopped, he and the cop will end up in a brief conversation about guns. Friend usually carries a Glock, which is standard issue in a lot of police departments, so he and the cop would talk shop.
That's how such a stop is supposed to go, and how it does go for most white people who carry. There's utterly no excuse for what happened in MN.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
AlexiaSky yeah, me too. I started doing social work as a 21 year old white girl walking alone into housing projects carrying a video camera and a laptop. This was before I even owned a cell phone. Was it sometimes scary? Did I have to deal with sometimes groups of young men yelling at me? Yup.
Later I started doing crisis intervention with people with severe mental illness. Only once did I rely on police to intervene and they were already present when the psychotic man started coming for me. I threatened to call the cops a couple of times, which worked to get people to leave my office. In other situations I was legally obligated to call the police, such as when someone was making threats. But sometimes I didn't follow my legal obligation. I had one client who straight up told me if I ever sent the police to his house, he would start shooting and commit suicide by cop. So I didn't. After I left my replacement did and he died.
But in none of the situations where the police were helpful to resolving crises that I dealt with were guns involved. They were helpful because their large presence was intimidating, or because they could restrain someone, or in a couple of cases because they used a taser. The only thing guns do is help the cops kill people, not resolve problems.
posted by threeturtles at 5:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
Later I started doing crisis intervention with people with severe mental illness. Only once did I rely on police to intervene and they were already present when the psychotic man started coming for me. I threatened to call the cops a couple of times, which worked to get people to leave my office. In other situations I was legally obligated to call the police, such as when someone was making threats. But sometimes I didn't follow my legal obligation. I had one client who straight up told me if I ever sent the police to his house, he would start shooting and commit suicide by cop. So I didn't. After I left my replacement did and he died.
But in none of the situations where the police were helpful to resolving crises that I dealt with were guns involved. They were helpful because their large presence was intimidating, or because they could restrain someone, or in a couple of cases because they used a taser. The only thing guns do is help the cops kill people, not resolve problems.
posted by threeturtles at 5:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
I would love to see an unarmed police force, but is that a reasonable demand in the only country that has more guns than people?
I think if you go that route, then it needs to be hand in hand with stricter gun ownership laws in general (which I would totally support). While Police racism is very real, there also seems to be an aspect of police fearing guns and massively misreading nefarious behavior from innocent body language, which is also based in their heightened fear. I think this really demonstrates the fallacy of the bad guy with a gun vs. good guy with a gun - it's more like two jittery scared guys with guns and the one who shoots first is the defacto good guy (unless the other guy is a police officer). The other guy might not even have a gun for all we know. The stand-your-ground laws even support this recklessly fearful behavior.
We need a war on fear. That can mean reducing guns in the population and the police force. Police retraining. Giving these movements names that don't include "war on .." Better education and more efforts toward further integrating communities and social interaction within communities, etc. And much greater efforts against the most unjustified fear, racism.
posted by p3t3 at 5:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think if you go that route, then it needs to be hand in hand with stricter gun ownership laws in general (which I would totally support). While Police racism is very real, there also seems to be an aspect of police fearing guns and massively misreading nefarious behavior from innocent body language, which is also based in their heightened fear. I think this really demonstrates the fallacy of the bad guy with a gun vs. good guy with a gun - it's more like two jittery scared guys with guns and the one who shoots first is the defacto good guy (unless the other guy is a police officer). The other guy might not even have a gun for all we know. The stand-your-ground laws even support this recklessly fearful behavior.
We need a war on fear. That can mean reducing guns in the population and the police force. Police retraining. Giving these movements names that don't include "war on .." Better education and more efforts toward further integrating communities and social interaction within communities, etc. And much greater efforts against the most unjustified fear, racism.
posted by p3t3 at 5:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm too tired to link, but there are lots of vigils, marches and protests going on around the country tonight. New York shut down Times Square. Chicago shut down the expressway. Minneapolis marched to the governor's mansion. Oakland and LA are later tonight, I think.
posted by AFABulous at 5:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 5:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
@MTVnews: 41 police officers were killed in 2015 while police officers shot dead 990 people. ‘Blue Lives Matter’ is bullshit.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Zug - I kept waiting for you to say that you picked up all the anti BLM Flyers and threw them out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am a social worker.
yeah, me too.
You are heroes.
I worked with MR/DD Adults for about a decade (both public and private sector agencies.) We had to deal with people who could become extremely violent to themselves and/or others. We had relatively basic training (a couple/few weeks on average) but managed not to kill or even seriously injuring anyone (restraining someone intent on injuring themself is tricky. (also, it was very much a weeks of boredom, moments of terror job. Most of the time it was pleasant. We did picknicks!))
The scariest part of our training was that if the cops showed up we were to defer to them even if what they did contradicted our own training. Nobody called the cops. We did five point restraint (exhausting!) for hours if need be, but nobody would call the cops.
Only after I left (I was burnt out) did I realize that was as much for our protection as our wards.
So yeah, I see videos of policeacademies boot camps and am not impressed.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
yeah, me too.
You are heroes.
I worked with MR/DD Adults for about a decade (both public and private sector agencies.) We had to deal with people who could become extremely violent to themselves and/or others. We had relatively basic training (a couple/few weeks on average) but managed not to kill or even seriously injuring anyone (restraining someone intent on injuring themself is tricky. (also, it was very much a weeks of boredom, moments of terror job. Most of the time it was pleasant. We did picknicks!))
The scariest part of our training was that if the cops showed up we were to defer to them even if what they did contradicted our own training. Nobody called the cops. We did five point restraint (exhausting!) for hours if need be, but nobody would call the cops.
Only after I left (I was burnt out) did I realize that was as much for our protection as our wards.
So yeah, I see videos of police
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
That cop who killed Castile sounds completely unstable. What the hell. Do they shoot up with steroids before going out on patrol?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Dave Holmes: A Few Words for the Twitter Eggs:
It is a pattern by now. We watch a black man get killed by a police officer, we protest, we hashtag, we GoFund. An investigation is launched, no charges are filed. We ask when it's going to stop, and it keeps not stopping. Play video, feel hopeless, repeat.posted by palindromic at 6:15 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
But there is one step in the process that I would like to remove.
Every time I post or tweet about what's happening around us, someone with an egg or a bald eagle as their Twitter avatar, someone who tells it like it is, or fights against all this PC crap, or tags things with #TCOT, makes one of the following four arguments.
> That cop who killed Castile sounds completely unstable. What the hell. Do they shoot up with steroids before going out on patrol?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:10 PM on July 7 [+] [!]
Yes. There's actually a lot of doctors who specialize in diagnosing police officers with "low T" and writing them prescriptions for steroids — they're sort of the bizarro-world version of the "green card doctors" you find in states with medical marijuana.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:10 PM on July 7 [+] [!]
Yes. There's actually a lot of doctors who specialize in diagnosing police officers with "low T" and writing them prescriptions for steroids — they're sort of the bizarro-world version of the "green card doctors" you find in states with medical marijuana.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
someone with an egg or a bald eagle as their Twitter avatar,
The bald eagle I get (it's their penis) but what's with the egg? Their whiteness?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on July 7, 2016
The bald eagle I get (it's their penis) but what's with the egg? Their whiteness?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on July 7, 2016
The egg is default for a new account.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 6:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
The egg is default for a new account.
Really? Take some pride in your work!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:28 PM on July 7, 2016
Really? Take some pride in your work!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:28 PM on July 7, 2016
Yes. There's actually a lot of doctors who specialize in diagnosing police officers with "low T" and writing them prescriptions for steroids
far more wide ranging than just cops. it cropped up a few years ago and grows every year it seems. i've sat at many kitchen tables where wives complain about it.
posted by nadawi at 6:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
far more wide ranging than just cops. it cropped up a few years ago and grows every year it seems. i've sat at many kitchen tables where wives complain about it.
posted by nadawi at 6:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
From Vox: I'm a black ex-cop, and this is the real truth about race and policing
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Whiteness is blindness. It is the wish not to see what it will not know.
posted by space_cookie at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by space_cookie at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sheriff: Man pointed shotgun at drivers, fired at Wake deputy
posted by clawsoon at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Deputy D.R. Farmer stopped to question Ray in response to reports of a man pointing a shotgun at passing drivers, and Ray became belligerent and pointed the shotgun at Farmer, Sheriff Donnie Harrison said.This sounds to me like as threatening a situation as you could imagine as an officer, but because the guy with the guns was white, police looked at him and didn't see an "it" or a "demon".
"The deputy luckily grabbed the barrel and pushed him back," Harrison said. "The man says, 'I got something for you' and reached in his pocket and came back with a pistol."
As Farmer pushed the .22-caliber handgun aside, the gun went off, the sheriff said.
"Luckily, nobody got hurt. That’s the good thing. God was looking out for us," Harrison said.
posted by clawsoon at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Can we not do the "testosterone = steroids" thing? It's transphobic.
posted by AFABulous at 6:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 6:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Pictures and videos from protests around the country
posted by AFABulous at 6:43 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 6:43 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
.
posted by greermahoney at 6:58 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by greermahoney at 6:58 PM on July 7, 2016
I just can't stop thinking about that 4 year old girl in the backseat. I can't stop seeing Philando lying on the car seat bleeding out and his girlfriend wasn't allowed to cradle his head or hold his hand to comfort him in his dying breath. I was terrified we would see her being killed too. As horrifying and terrible as it is to see these poor men being shot in cold blood, the refusal to render the slightest bit of help adds another cruel depth of inhumanity.
Black mefites, I am so deeply sorry.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
Black mefites, I am so deeply sorry.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
Shit is getting ugly. Reports of a police officer down in Dallas. (Video is not graphic)
posted by AFABulous at 7:09 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 7:09 PM on July 7, 2016
I want to add... the story about the guy with the shotgun and the .22 is a hopeful one, in one way, because it shows that better policing is possible. They saw a guy with a mental illness, and they succeeded in de-escalating without anyone getting hurt. They did some emotional labour, the kind that threeturtles and AlexiaSky described doing on a regular basis to keep people from hurting themselves and others.
posted by clawsoon at 7:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
The worst part about the little girl was hearing her comfort her mother in the police car. "It's ok. I'm right here with you."
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
It is beyond heartbreaking to see and hear the words that precious 4 year old said to her mommy.
posted by futz at 7:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 7:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the NRA's facebook page, members are getting louder by the minute with their complaints about the lack of an official statement regarding Philando Castile and his Second Amendment rights.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by triggerfinger at 7:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
KTVT in Dallas reports that two officers are down after having been shot at a protest.
posted by Justinian at 7:32 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Justinian at 7:32 PM on July 7, 2016
Phil took the time to help a kid with a disability get from breakfast to class - regularly.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:34 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:34 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
fuck
posted by zachlipton at 7:35 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 7:35 PM on July 7, 2016
On the NRA's facebook page, members are getting louder by the minute with their complaints about the lack of an official statement regarding Philando Castile and his Second Amendment rights.
Atrios: "Legal guns (including open carry, concealed carry, stand your ground, etc.) exist so that white people can enact their vigilante fantasies involving "protecting" themselves from black people. Whatever the law says, it is illegal for black people to own and possess guns, and possession is proof of an imminent threat that justifies execution by law enforcement or any white person."
I wouldn't count on a statement from the NRA. They know their audience, and it's white cops and white Republicans.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Atrios: "Legal guns (including open carry, concealed carry, stand your ground, etc.) exist so that white people can enact their vigilante fantasies involving "protecting" themselves from black people. Whatever the law says, it is illegal for black people to own and possess guns, and possession is proof of an imminent threat that justifies execution by law enforcement or any white person."
I wouldn't count on a statement from the NRA. They know their audience, and it's white cops and white Republicans.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
per dallas pd scanner, suspect up high, SWAT taking fire. please let's NOT DO THIS
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:42 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:42 PM on July 7, 2016
https://twitter.com/allisongriz/status/751234755882995713
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jesus. It sounds like a war zone right in the middle of a major American city. Praying for everyone in the area.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 7:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Fox4 saying 3-6 officers down.
posted by miguelcervantes at 7:52 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by miguelcervantes at 7:52 PM on July 7, 2016
Holy shit, that audio.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 7:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I really hope everyone stays safe tonight. I have a scary feeling like history is happening.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I have a scary feeling that history is not happening.
posted by space_cookie at 8:07 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by space_cookie at 8:07 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Officers in the Castile shooting have been identified as Officer Jeronimo Yanez and Officer Joseph Kauser. Yanez pulled the trigger. Apparently there's also dash cam video of the stop but no body camera video.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:08 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by nathan_teske at 8:08 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have a scary feeling like history is happening.
With each one of these shootings, I've had this sort of flashback to my high school history classes, especially ancient civiilizations. It was long enough ago that of course i can't come up with a specific example, but I remember that every now and then we'd learn about an incident in Ancient Rome or Greece or Persia -- something that if they had "news" back then would have been a news story. Like not a giant longform article about the changing nature of Roman society in the Atlantic Monthly (or Mediterranean Monthly), but just a regular news story about some guy who did some thing or some thing that happened on the nightly news. And of course we were learning about it and learning that some guy's name 2000 years later because it was some sort of turning point. The aftermath of that nightly-news event and people's views of it changed the course of the civilization. I'm not talking "Great Man" history, but regular people who stuff happened to or who said stuff and it ended up sparking something.
And when I was in high school and I learned about these things I remember how it kind of boggled my mind that people who were just random people living their lives and having stuff happen to them that wasn't that different than what lots of other people did and had happen to them ended up being turning points. And that they probably never even knew they were turning points, but there I was 2000 years later learning their names. There were more modern examples, too (Emmett Till, comes to mind).
But with each of these high publicity police killings I flash back to that weird dissonance of HS history of how regular people doing things that are unfortunately very common can spark things and change history and it feels like that's happening and that we won't see the full scope of it for many years, but decades and maybe even centuries from now kids in high school will learn about how the murders of Trayvon Martin and Alton Sterling and Freddie Gray etc. etc. changed history. Not because they were unusual events but because they WEREN'T and somehow it was these ones and not the other 500 this year that sparked something.
That's no consolation to any of the families, I know, especially since I don't know if history is going to turn for the better or worse here, but I also have this sense that what we're seeing in the past couple of years and maybe the next couple of years around these killings is history-making.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:09 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
With each one of these shootings, I've had this sort of flashback to my high school history classes, especially ancient civiilizations. It was long enough ago that of course i can't come up with a specific example, but I remember that every now and then we'd learn about an incident in Ancient Rome or Greece or Persia -- something that if they had "news" back then would have been a news story. Like not a giant longform article about the changing nature of Roman society in the Atlantic Monthly (or Mediterranean Monthly), but just a regular news story about some guy who did some thing or some thing that happened on the nightly news. And of course we were learning about it and learning that some guy's name 2000 years later because it was some sort of turning point. The aftermath of that nightly-news event and people's views of it changed the course of the civilization. I'm not talking "Great Man" history, but regular people who stuff happened to or who said stuff and it ended up sparking something.
And when I was in high school and I learned about these things I remember how it kind of boggled my mind that people who were just random people living their lives and having stuff happen to them that wasn't that different than what lots of other people did and had happen to them ended up being turning points. And that they probably never even knew they were turning points, but there I was 2000 years later learning their names. There were more modern examples, too (Emmett Till, comes to mind).
But with each of these high publicity police killings I flash back to that weird dissonance of HS history of how regular people doing things that are unfortunately very common can spark things and change history and it feels like that's happening and that we won't see the full scope of it for many years, but decades and maybe even centuries from now kids in high school will learn about how the murders of Trayvon Martin and Alton Sterling and Freddie Gray etc. etc. changed history. Not because they were unusual events but because they WEREN'T and somehow it was these ones and not the other 500 this year that sparked something.
That's no consolation to any of the families, I know, especially since I don't know if history is going to turn for the better or worse here, but I also have this sense that what we're seeing in the past couple of years and maybe the next couple of years around these killings is history-making.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:09 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
MSNBC says shooter surrounded and a negotiator team talking to him
posted by madamjujujive at 8:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by madamjujujive at 8:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
https://www.facebook.com/michaelbautista86/videos/899698650159344/
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The current headline on CNN TV is that three Dallas transit officers were shot.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:17 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 8:17 PM on July 7, 2016
I wouldn't count on a statement from the NRA. They know their audience, and it's white cops and white Republicans.
I know that and you know that but I think the NRA still relies heavily on plausible deniability and a lot of their members/supporters buy into it. If they fail to make a statement affirming their stated belief in EVERY American's right to carry a gun, then their facade starts to slip. I think they still stand to lose a lot of support if the general population starts to see them as basically a white supremacist org.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:19 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I know that and you know that but I think the NRA still relies heavily on plausible deniability and a lot of their members/supporters buy into it. If they fail to make a statement affirming their stated belief in EVERY American's right to carry a gun, then their facade starts to slip. I think they still stand to lose a lot of support if the general population starts to see them as basically a white supremacist org.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:19 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
MSNBC says 2 officers shot, 7 people injured. I can't pretend to understand how to parse that.
posted by mollweide at 8:20 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by mollweide at 8:20 PM on July 7, 2016
People from my church were at that march. They are safe, sheltering in locked Dallas Morning-News building.
I wish I could feel any surprise, but the only surprise I feel is that it didn't happen sooner.
posted by emjaybee at 8:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wish I could feel any surprise, but the only surprise I feel is that it didn't happen sooner.
posted by emjaybee at 8:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have heard about 20 different things on Twitter. One suspect, two suspect, both in custody, one on the loose, 3 shot, 6 shot, etc. We're not going to know until tomorrow.
posted by AFABulous at 8:22 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 8:22 PM on July 7, 2016
MSNBC says 2 officers shot, 7 people injured. I can't pretend to understand how to parse that.
Probably trampled. When crowds panic it can get ugly and dangerous.
posted by Justinian at 8:24 PM on July 7, 2016
Probably trampled. When crowds panic it can get ugly and dangerous.
posted by Justinian at 8:24 PM on July 7, 2016
If they fail to make a statement affirming their stated belief in EVERY American's right to carry a gun, then their facade starts to slip.
I think they are going to wait for more details. Why piss off the racist part of their base if it later turns out this guy did in fact have the gun illegally or something else that makes him "no angel" to that crowd? This isn't a matter of life or death for them, just another potential chance for propaganda.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think they are going to wait for more details. Why piss off the racist part of their base if it later turns out this guy did in fact have the gun illegally or something else that makes him "no angel" to that crowd? This isn't a matter of life or death for them, just another potential chance for propaganda.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:27 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 8:27 PM on July 7, 2016
Let's hope that the suspects are taken alive and that the cops live, because if any of the cops die Texas will execute the shooter.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:27 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:27 PM on July 7, 2016
From the DART twitter: one officer confirmed dead, 4 shot. Other injuries not life-threatening.
posted by perplexion at 8:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by perplexion at 8:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The shots in posted videos sound high caliber and from above. Like someone planned this. I can't even fathom why.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the Dallas feed they just arrested a guy ... apparently just because he was wearing body armor? Is it illegal as a civilian to wear body armor? WTF
posted by RedEmma at 8:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by RedEmma at 8:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
.
There were reports the shooter had some kind of body armor too. This must have been planned.
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
There were reports the shooter had some kind of body armor too. This must have been planned.
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
10 shot, 3 dead, all cops. 2 snipers. Jesus Christ.
posted by emjaybee at 8:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 8:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like someone planned this. I can't even fathom why.
I can.
2 snipers
3 officers dead
-msnbc
posted by futz at 8:32 PM on July 7, 2016
I can.
2 snipers
3 officers dead
-msnbc
posted by futz at 8:32 PM on July 7, 2016
(per the City's statement just now)
posted by emjaybee at 8:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 8:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
2 snipers shot 10 police officers from elevated positions. In addition to 3 dead, 3 more are critical condition.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:33 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:33 PM on July 7, 2016
Arrested is better than shot. Doing the former almost sounds professional.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well. Fuck.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:34 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 8:34 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is it illegal as a civilian to wear body armor? WTF
If they had a prior felony conviction, yes. But under the circumstances the cops probably just took anybody suspicious into custody and will sort them out later.
posted by Justinian at 8:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
If they had a prior felony conviction, yes. But under the circumstances the cops probably just took anybody suspicious into custody and will sort them out later.
posted by Justinian at 8:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
CNN is currently reporting no suspects in custody...
posted by Drinky Die at 8:36 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 8:36 PM on July 7, 2016
Horrifying. Unspeakably ugly gets even uglier. Everyone says protest had been peaceful, good interaction between protesters and police.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:37 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by madamjujujive at 8:37 PM on July 7, 2016
Dammit, my internet search skills are failing, and I can't find the quote or reference.
REMINDER
Breaking news is often wrong and you shouldn't make snap judgements about what you are seeing until more facts are available.
With that said, I have a bad feeling about this.
posted by daq at 8:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
REMINDER
Breaking news is often wrong and you shouldn't make snap judgements about what you are seeing until more facts are available.
With that said, I have a bad feeling about this.
posted by daq at 8:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Well, the 3 dead, 2 in surgery, 3 more in critical condition information is directly from an official statement from the Dallas chief of police so it's the best info available.
posted by Justinian at 8:39 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Justinian at 8:39 PM on July 7, 2016
On the Dallas feed they just arrested a guy ... apparently just because he was wearing body armor? Is it illegal as a civilian to wear body armor? WTF
He apparently drove around a blockade per one reporter but I don't know what really happened. He looked disoriented.
The gunshots echoing in that video...
Shooters still at large.
I'm so scared for the backlash and fallout once this is over.
posted by emjaybee at 8:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
He apparently drove around a blockade per one reporter but I don't know what really happened. He looked disoriented.
The gunshots echoing in that video...
Shooters still at large.
I'm so scared for the backlash and fallout once this is over.
posted by emjaybee at 8:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hope that body count is wrong and much lower, because jesus.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 PM on July 7, 2016
This incident in Dallas is obviously tragic and I condemn all violence, but we will need to wait till all the facts are out and not rush to judgment.
posted by phearlez at 8:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 8:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Based on the reports right this second, some of the shot officers are just DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) personnel, not even police. Not armed, either. (Link, DMN = Dallas Morning News, local paper.)
Reports on the ground at this point are suggesting the shots were fired at protesters and uniformed personnel both.
But yeah. Bad feeling. Really very much not good.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:42 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Reports on the ground at this point are suggesting the shots were fired at protesters and uniformed personnel both.
But yeah. Bad feeling. Really very much not good.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:42 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The body count is from the statement of the City of Dallas read out on the news. I think it's accurate.
Press briefing in 20 minutes.
posted by emjaybee at 8:42 PM on July 7, 2016
Press briefing in 20 minutes.
posted by emjaybee at 8:42 PM on July 7, 2016
as with every goddamn american mass shooting, the only thought and prayer i can muster is please let the shooters be white, please be white, please be white, because as fucked as we will be then, otherwise we are 100% even more fucked
posted by nicepersonality at 8:43 PM on July 7, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by nicepersonality at 8:43 PM on July 7, 2016 [35 favorites]
The videos from Dallas are showing a mom in BLM shirt running from the shooting pushing a baby carriage. Whoever the snipers are they don't have their lives as a priority. Fuck.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Looks like it's at the corner in front of El Centro College?
posted by ctmf at 8:50 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by ctmf at 8:50 PM on July 7, 2016
I was just at the BLM march in downtown Seattle. Like I'm literally sitting down at home right this second. Everything was calm and peaceful. I joined up late 'cause I had to be elsewhere, but from what I saw even the police were perfectly calm. Blocked off streets, no riot gear.
Then on the way home my girlfriend sees the news about Dallas on her phone. WTF.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Then on the way home my girlfriend sees the news about Dallas on her phone. WTF.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
MSNBC reporting more gunfire and an 11th officer shot.
posted by current resident at 8:55 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by current resident at 8:55 PM on July 7, 2016
PIc of alleged sniper...is a black man. Oh no.
posted by emjaybee at 8:56 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 8:56 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The shooter(s) have further set back the cause of social justice regardless of their ultimate motive. This does not help advance pro-police reform policies. It is an atrocity on top of atrocities.
As the murders of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling horrifically demonstrated, frightened cops trained to treat black men as threats are an awful thing. Murdering police will only make more officers fearful and thus an even bigger threat to the lives of black men.
Sincere condolences to the families of the latest set of victims. We must keep pushing for justice.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
As the murders of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling horrifically demonstrated, frightened cops trained to treat black men as threats are an awful thing. Murdering police will only make more officers fearful and thus an even bigger threat to the lives of black men.
Sincere condolences to the families of the latest set of victims. We must keep pushing for justice.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
presser ongoing. Possible bomb threat.
posted by emjaybee at 8:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 8:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is one of our suspects. Please help us find him!
CNN was speaking with a witness who earlier saw someone with an assault rifle in the crowd right as this picture came out, the witness confirmed this was the man he saw.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:59 PM on July 7, 2016
CNN was speaking with a witness who earlier saw someone with an assault rifle in the crowd right as this picture came out, the witness confirmed this was the man he saw.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:59 PM on July 7, 2016
Yeah, Dallas PD circulating photo of black male with high caliber rifle, says he's a suscept. But he's walking casually in crowd, no one seems alarmed by him, so who knows.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The witness was from Illinois. He said he didn't know if he should be suspicious or not because he thought carrying around a rifle might just be normal in Texas.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 9:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
On the Media's Breaking News Consumer Handbook is always worth a reread at times like this:
Active Shooter Edition
Terrorism Edition
posted by perplexion at 9:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Active Shooter Edition
Terrorism Edition
posted by perplexion at 9:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
as with every goddamn american mass shooting, the only thought and prayer i can muster is please let the shooters be white, please be white, please be white, because as fucked as we will be then, otherwise we are 100% even more fucked
I honestly don't think it matters who the snipers are, the black and brown communities will be blamed and they will pay the price.
I'm scared for friends and family in a way I didn't think I had to be anymore. Even moreso than I was half an hour ago.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I honestly don't think it matters who the snipers are, the black and brown communities will be blamed and they will pay the price.
I'm scared for friends and family in a way I didn't think I had to be anymore. Even moreso than I was half an hour ago.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I would caution against circulating that photo at this point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
What evidence do they have that guy is involved? Just because he's black and has a gun?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Carrying the rifle was legal, yes.
They say they know it was the same as the kind used in shooting (based on bullets?) but haven't heard anything tying this gun to shooting.
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 PM on July 7, 2016
They say they know it was the same as the kind used in shooting (based on bullets?) but haven't heard anything tying this gun to shooting.
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 PM on July 7, 2016
A little disturbing to hear first that he's a person of interest, then goes on to say that the reason is that he has a rifle (sure, that makes sense, look into him), but I mean he doesn't look like a guy on his way to shooting 11 people, so let's not jump to conclusions...and then the next thing they say is "We will bring him to justice." which seems a little premature.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
At this point, is anyone surprised that being black and having a gun is considered enough?
posted by dinty_moore at 9:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 9:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Dude, they don't know he has anything to do with it, they just know he had a rifle. It's not nothing, but it's still just guessing.
posted by ctmf at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Brandon, the police released that photo
posted by madamjujujive at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by madamjujujive at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016
Hopefully this guy knows his pic is out there as a suspect and is on his way to a lawyer's office so he can approach police and demonstrate his non-murdery-ness (assuming he's non-murdery).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have good friends who were talking about being there tonight. Thankfully I don't think they went. At least one didn't. They didn't like the guy organizing it, whatever that means. This is just unreal and terrifying. I'm so worried about backlash.
posted by threeturtles at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by threeturtles at 9:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Black humor time; reporters saying "but as we KNOW it was PERFECTLY LEGAL to carry a gun like this in a protest." Because we living in fucking yee-ha Texas.
posted by emjaybee at 9:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 9:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
madamjujujive: I think the point is that the police are releasing that photo with very little reason to think he's involved and yet saying they're going to "bring him to justice."
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Do not approach the subject. We will bring him to justice."
sorry chief of police, that does not reassure me at all.
posted by futz at 9:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
sorry chief of police, that does not reassure me at all.
posted by futz at 9:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Like how much does it make sense that he was chilling in the crowd when the shots later came from above? The tweet I saw from Dallas PD called him a suspect. So he was a visible dude at a protest in a state where openly carrying that sort of thing is legal?
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The bringing him to justice phrasing was inappropriate, but I can't see any way the police would be doing their duty if they didn't investigate him in this situation. They have to cover their bases.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:07 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 9:07 PM on July 7, 2016
My bad feeling just got worse.
posted by daq at 9:08 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by daq at 9:08 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are there live videos going on in Dallas right now? I just have The Guardian up.
posted by gucci mane at 9:09 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by gucci mane at 9:09 PM on July 7, 2016
What's the basis for believing there's a bomb? Was a threat called in?
posted by yasaman at 9:09 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by yasaman at 9:09 PM on July 7, 2016
The bringing him to justice phrasing was inappropriate, but I can't see any way the police would be doing their duty if they didn't investigate him in this situation.
agreed. that was not my point.
posted by futz at 9:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
agreed. that was not my point.
posted by futz at 9:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
NBC channel five, ABC channel 8, CBS channel 11 are all local to D/FW if you are checking news online.
posted by emjaybee at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by emjaybee at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016
I can't even. Going to bed early. I remember after the 9/11 attacks feeling devastated and also terrified of waking up the next day to a backlash of people beating or killing Muslims or anyone who looked Middle Eastern. That happened, and that's kind of how I feel now. I'm afraid of what I'm going to wake up to tomorrow. We didn't need the earlier murders, we don't need these murders. There is so much work we white people need to do, so much fucking work before Black people can stop being terrorised by the police, government officials, yadda yadda. Sorry, y'all know this. This isn't any news at all. Stay safe if you can. Hugs to all.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's a reddit live feed here, which has been more informative than CNN (big surprise).
posted by Death and Gravity at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Death and Gravity at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016
The bringing him to justice phrasing was inappropriate, but I can't see any way the police would be doing their duty if they didn't investigate him in this situation. They have to cover their bases.
There's a difference between investigating a man and releasing his photo to the public as a suspect.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's a difference between investigating a man and releasing his photo to the public as a suspect.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Man claiming to be suspect's brother just ran up to CBS reporter, is now talking to cops. Says his brother put down his gun before shooting started.
posted by emjaybee at 9:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm so worried about backlash.
I'm already getting "thin blue line" solidarity posts on Facebook through extended family. Complete silence up until tonight, of course. The backlash will unfortunately become the only story by tomorrow, and then you'll hear all the usual bombthrowers turned up to 11.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm already getting "thin blue line" solidarity posts on Facebook through extended family. Complete silence up until tonight, of course. The backlash will unfortunately become the only story by tomorrow, and then you'll hear all the usual bombthrowers turned up to 11.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah sounds like the only thing they know is he had a rifle.
posted by Justinian at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Justinian at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016
Look idk if this is idle speculative bullshit but how does this guy fit the actual shooter profile at all? So the sequence of events here is supposed to be that he was marching in a protest downtown with his AR-15 in open carry, in shorts and a t-shirt, then snuck off to a nearby building where he'd presumably already stashed body armor and precision sniper gear and put it all together and got himself to a tactical overhead position in time to open fire on the same protest he'd just been marching in. That sounds like a really...significant amount of prep and planning to for an event that was only organized this morning. IDK man, IDK.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
There's a difference between investigating a man and releasing his photo to the public as a suspect.
You'd like to think the police would be better at investigation than the average reddit post, but you'd be entirely wrong. Just unbelievably irresponsible.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
You'd like to think the police would be better at investigation than the average reddit post, but you'd be entirely wrong. Just unbelievably irresponsible.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Video seemingly of the same dude wandering about the crowd after shots fired.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
MSNBC reporting a 4th officer has died.
posted by current resident at 9:15 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by current resident at 9:15 PM on July 7, 2016
It is hard for me to imagine that anybody who would shoot into a crowd of protesters, many of them people of color, could believe that black lives matter.
posted by zachlipton at 9:15 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 9:15 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
yes, the police circulated the photo, that makes sense for them to do so, but it's a rapidly changing situation and I caution everyone on involving themselves in it at this point. But the choice is yours.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:15 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:15 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Fox reporting active shooting now and new officers down. And yes, fourth officer dead.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:16 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:16 PM on July 7, 2016
Mod note: Given the currently questionable nature of the suspect's involvement let's maybe not publicize his name until there's considerably more information.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
I don't know what the basis is, but local news is sharing the thing about a possible bomb, saying it comes from the chief of police.
posted by threeturtles at 9:17 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by threeturtles at 9:17 PM on July 7, 2016
I knew a couple of guys that had guns on them. I told them, hey, put that gun up, give it to a cop, because I don't want you to be mistaken for the person that's shooting. (Transcription is almost accurate.)
posted by clawsoon at 9:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 9:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
No suspects in custody is being pushed hard right now on the news feeds.
posted by daq at 9:18 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by daq at 9:18 PM on July 7, 2016
I don't know what the basis is, but local news is sharing the thing about a possible bomb, saying it comes from the chief of police.
Video of the Chief of Police mentioning a possible bomb. Very vague.
posted by zachlipton at 9:19 PM on July 7, 2016
Video of the Chief of Police mentioning a possible bomb. Very vague.
posted by zachlipton at 9:19 PM on July 7, 2016
Fox confused it's own live vs. replay feed. So reporters thought there was new gunfire and new officer down, but there wasn't.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:20 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:20 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, JFC. Fox reported new officers down because they 'saw' it on re-rolled earlier footage. Appears not to be true.
posted by ctmf at 9:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 9:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is Dallas Morning News video ; someone who looks like person of interest, w/ gun, in crowd at time of shooting at very beginning on the left.
posted by emjaybee at 9:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 9:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It really sucks when the police and the press fall victim to that same quirk of human nature that makes us want to get unverified information out there. I guess the cost/benefit is that if there is a bomb people should know about it, but of course if there's not, you're raising the emotional temperature in an already very tense situation.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by tonycpsu at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016
Fox confused it's own live vs. replay feed. So reporters thought there was new gunfire and new officer down, but there wasn't.
Well, that's incompetent. But a relief.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, that's incompetent. But a relief.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
i was listening to the scanner when officers requested video from the McDonalds (i think) after taking the report of a bystander regarding this guy in camo carrying a rifle. Clearly they did get the video. I don't think the police have any idea if this guy was actually involved, they just want to check it out.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is local for us. I've been to previous BLM rallies, and it was not uncommon to see folks with long rifles, but they were your usual misfit lunatics there to overtly threaten the crowd, while chanting their mantra about gun rights. But when a black guy carries the same gun, suddenly he's a suspect who will be brought to justice.
Local cbs channel reporting 11 cops shot, including the Dart employees, 4 deceased.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Local cbs channel reporting 11 cops shot, including the Dart employees, 4 deceased.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
How about we let the 1000 reporters who are actually there tell the story? You're just fucking it up, fox.
posted by ctmf at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 9:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Without naming names, there is reporting that the brother of the subject of the picture says he is not the shooter and he turned over his weapon to law enforcement.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:23 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 9:23 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Again, per the advice linked in perplexion's comment:
1. In the immediate aftermath, news outlets will get it wrong.
2. Don't trust anonymous sources.
3. Don't trust stories that cite another news outlet as the source of the information.
4. There's almost never a second shooter.
5. Pay attention to the language the media uses.
7. Compare multiple sources.
8. Big news brings out the fakers. And photoshoppers.
9. Beware reflexive retweeting. Some of this is on you.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [56 favorites]
1. In the immediate aftermath, news outlets will get it wrong.
2. Don't trust anonymous sources.
3. Don't trust stories that cite another news outlet as the source of the information.
4. There's almost never a second shooter.
5. Pay attention to the language the media uses.
• “We are getting reports”… could mean anything.6. Look for news outlets close to the incident.
• “We are seeking confirmation”… means they don’t have it.
• “[News outlet] has learned”… means it has a scoop or is going out on limb.
7. Compare multiple sources.
8. Big news brings out the fakers. And photoshoppers.
9. Beware reflexive retweeting. Some of this is on you.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [56 favorites]
from msnbc it is looking like the published photo of the "person of interest" is NOT an actual suspect. He was just a lawful gun owner who happened to be black so of course he is a person of interest, ya know? An interesting person of color who was exercising their constitional rights without having the right skin tone.
pukes.
posted by futz at 9:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
pukes.
posted by futz at 9:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
Are... are the cops going to fully come at us now?
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Backlash? What you call backlash is just normal day to day life for many black people. Let's not pretend that white people were going to be ever sympathetic to the plight of black folks before this shitfest in Dallas. Who needs their sympathy anyway?
posted by RedShrek at 9:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by RedShrek at 9:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Video on twitter shows this guy milling about with everyone else while the shots are being fired.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:26 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Linking to it would be identifying but I've seen a couple things about the suspect in that photo being a brother of one of the organizers and handed over his rifle to law enforcement when shooting started.
posted by threeturtles at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by threeturtles at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
And now Joe Walsh (not the Eagles guy, the other one) has apparently gone full skinhead. Lovely.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by non canadian guy at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Are... are the cops going to fully come at us now?
As opposed to?
posted by phearlez at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
As opposed to?
posted by phearlez at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
"MY BROTHER IS NOT THE SUSPECT" - DALLAS SNIPER MISIDENTIFIED (YouTube)
posted by standardasparagus at 9:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by standardasparagus at 9:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I legit need a hug right now. My country is breaking my heart.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Person of interest turned himself in.
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's that much more dangerous now for black and brown Americans than it was five hours ago is what I mean.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
That's why you don't circulate shit from such a fast moving situation. Don't feed the mob from comfort of your computer.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [48 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [48 favorites]
Guy who was person of interest has turned himself in. A different alleged suspect in custody. A suspicious package was discovered/is being looked at by bomb squad.
posted by emjaybee at 9:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 9:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Given the Dallas PD tweeted his pic calling him a suspect for likely no other reason than he was doing something legal when something illegal happened nearby, what is the best way they should handle correcting the info? They still have that tweet up without any followup that I can see.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:35 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:35 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think that assault rifle owners who like to carry them around are just gonna have to put up with being investigated when other gun owners decide to commit terrorist attacks nearby.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 9:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Praise the lord, and pass the allegations
posted by thelonius at 9:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
And now Joe Walsh (not the Eagles guy, the other one) has apparently gone full skinhead. Lovely.
A US Congressman from Texas threatening the sitting President of the United States.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
A US Congressman from Texas threatening the sitting President of the United States.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think that assault rifle owners who like to carry them around are just gonna have to put up with being investigated when other gun owners decide to commit terrorist attacks nearby.
Only if POC.
posted by futz at 9:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Only if POC.
posted by futz at 9:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
I don't know what the fuck to say to this but it's bad and I can't imagine the danger black and brown ppl are in right now. The Dallas PD is in a state of total panic if they're tweeting out pictures of "suspects" on the same basis as people saying Beyonce's performances are hate speech-- black, armed, military bearing, wearing camo, it must be this dude. This is the phase where the police shot up random vehicles during the Dorner manhunt. Thank god this guy was able to turn himself in and was taken into custody before the police or someone else decided to "bring him to justice."
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Let's not kid ourselves.
posted by futz at 9:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 9:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's sort of like when open carry suddenly seemed less fun because the Black Panthers were doing it too.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:39 PM on July 7, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:39 PM on July 7, 2016 [49 favorites]
Guy who was person of interest has turned himself in. A different alleged suspect in custody. A suspicious package was discovered/is being looked at by bomb squad.
REMINDER PLEASE LINK SOURCES DO NOT POST TEXT RUMORS
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
REMINDER PLEASE LINK SOURCES DO NOT POST TEXT RUMORS
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Walsh deleted his threats against BLM and Obama already, I hope someone got a screen shot.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
And now Joe Walsh (not the Eagles guy, the other one) has apparently gone full skinhead. Lovely.
A US Congressman from Texas threatening the sitting President of the United States.
Ex 1-term congressmen, frothing radio wingnut, and deadbeat dad.
posted by lalochezia at 9:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
And now Joe Walsh (not the Eagles guy, the other one) has apparently gone full skinhead. Lovely.
Missed it, now deleted.
posted by ctmf at 9:41 PM on July 7, 2016
Missed it, now deleted.
posted by ctmf at 9:41 PM on July 7, 2016
Walsh deleted his threats against BLM and Obama already, I hope someone got a screen shot.
I screenshotted the threat.
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:42 PM on July 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
I screenshotted the threat.
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:42 PM on July 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
This is what the tweet said:
Joe Walsh @WalshFreedom
3 Dallas Cops killed, 7 wounded.
This is now war. Watch out Obama. Watch out black lives matter punks. Real America is coming after you.
posted by miguelcervantes at 9:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Joe Walsh @WalshFreedom
3 Dallas Cops killed, 7 wounded.
This is now war. Watch out Obama. Watch out black lives matter punks. Real America is coming after you.
posted by miguelcervantes at 9:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Guy who was person of interest has turned himself in. A different alleged suspect in custody. A suspicious package was discovered/is being looked at by bomb squad.
REMINDER PLEASE LINK SOURCES DO NOT POST TEXT RUMORS
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:40 AM on July 8 [+] [!]
Dallas PD Twitter account
posted by current resident at 9:45 PM on July 7, 2016
REMINDER PLEASE LINK SOURCES DO NOT POST TEXT RUMORS
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:40 AM on July 8 [+] [!]
Dallas PD Twitter account
posted by current resident at 9:45 PM on July 7, 2016
Walsh was a member of Congress from Illinois, not Texas.
posted by burden at 9:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by burden at 9:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
omg msnbc is pissing me off. trying to justify singling out the "black person deserving of extra scrutiny because black" (my embellishment)
posted by futz at 9:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 9:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
i need to sleep so badly but i can't look away
posted by murphy slaw at 9:49 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by murphy slaw at 9:49 PM on July 7, 2016
My worksite tomorrow morning is next door to a police station, there's typically a 50/50 chance of a cop grabbing lunch at the Subway down the street at the same time as me.
I. I don't know how that interaction will be negotiated tomorrow.
I'm literally thinking about my day, what neighborhoods I'll be travelling through and thinking about what might be the safest routes. There will be a lot of twitchy white cops and I look like a terrorist apparently.
Off to bed. I can't deal with this shit for another minute. There will be time enough tomorrow.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I. I don't know how that interaction will be negotiated tomorrow.
I'm literally thinking about my day, what neighborhoods I'll be travelling through and thinking about what might be the safest routes. There will be a lot of twitchy white cops and I look like a terrorist apparently.
Off to bed. I can't deal with this shit for another minute. There will be time enough tomorrow.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Breaking: At least three shot on Gus Young, about four blocks from site of #AltonSterling shooting & protests.
posted by standardasparagus at 9:49 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by standardasparagus at 9:49 PM on July 7, 2016
Uhh, CNN is airing cell phone video of a shooter right now.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:50 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 9:50 PM on July 7, 2016
"we won't have democracy if we don't have the thin blue line" - some fbi dude on msnbc who is also using the history of the JFK shooting
posted by futz at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Baton Rouge as well? Fuck.
posted by lalochezia at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by lalochezia at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016
The shooter is on the street level. The video is too far away to do any identification.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016
This is so awful.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The shooter arrived in a car and popped out and immediately began shooting.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:56 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 9:56 PM on July 7, 2016
My previous comments about the CNN video refer to the Dallas incident, if it is unclear.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:58 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 9:58 PM on July 7, 2016
Baton Rouge shooting may be unrelated gang activity. I can't find anything more than that.
posted by threeturtles at 10:00 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by threeturtles at 10:00 PM on July 7, 2016
Heartbreaking tweet: My brother and I are at the police station. Please let the world know he had nothing to do with this.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
All of the above statements about CNNs supposedly real video are speculation based on what a witness who video taped a tiny piece of a shootout at ground level is saying who ALSO said a bunch of weird stuff about BLM being behind it. So please stop quoting randomly. Link sources you trust or don't post. The CNN video might be real or it might not, the eye witnesses report might be right or might be made up.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:01 PM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm scared for my country and I'm scared of my country.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, the reason we don't do breaking-news threads is partly that the chances of amplifying complete horsepucky is very high. Please try not to do that thing here. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Touching photo sums up Dallas right now.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Turns out the good guy with the rifle didn't help any.
posted by ctmf at 10:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 10:06 PM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sorry I was not clear earlier, my source was local CBS tv news, I was repeating what they said.
posted by emjaybee at 10:08 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by emjaybee at 10:08 PM on July 7, 2016
I trust CNN.
Thanks. I truly needed that laugh right now.
posted by zachlipton at 10:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [52 favorites]
Thanks. I truly needed that laugh right now.
posted by zachlipton at 10:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [52 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that news organizations, these days, dump horsepucky to the internet just as fast as anyone. They're paid for eyeballs and not criticized much any more for inaccuracy. I have flashbacks to the Boston bombing thread - Reddit wasn't the only organization that fucked that one up good.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 10:12 PM on July 7, 2016 [31 favorites]
Turns out the good guy with the rifle didn't help any.
I understand the point that you are making but thank god his brother recognized what was going on and made him turn over his gun to police on scene or he'd probably be dead too. At least one person in Minnesota was executed today for lawful possession of a firearm that was concealed. This guy has a smart sibling. Probably saved his brother's life.
posted by futz at 10:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [29 favorites]
I understand the point that you are making but thank god his brother recognized what was going on and made him turn over his gun to police on scene or he'd probably be dead too. At least one person in Minnesota was executed today for lawful possession of a firearm that was concealed. This guy has a smart sibling. Probably saved his brother's life.
posted by futz at 10:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [29 favorites]
I just got home after completing a 30 hour drive from the Pacific Northwest where I was mostly away from all media and OMG America, wtf happened in that time.
All I know for myself at this point is that I have to become more useful in fighting for the arc of justice in what ever the best way that is. This is so fucked up. I have nothing at the moment but shock and sadness.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
All I know for myself at this point is that I have to become more useful in fighting for the arc of justice in what ever the best way that is. This is so fucked up. I have nothing at the moment but shock and sadness.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that news organizations, these days, dump horsepucky to the internet just as fast as anyone.
And the official police channels too
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
And the official police channels too
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
At this point I just want to get a chance of understanding in general terms the size and severity of the catastrophe of the day before the next one hits.
Relatedly, can't sleep.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Relatedly, can't sleep.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
According to MSNBCs Chris Hayes RTing a local radio news source both suspects in custody.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016
Reddit live-feed is saying both shooters are alive and in custody and danger to the public is now over. Can anyone confirm? Dallas PD twitter says two people were stopped in a vehicle but that's it.
EDIT: Ack, Potomac beat me to it.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016
EDIT: Ack, Potomac beat me to it.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016
where I was mostly away from all media and OMG America, wtf happened in that time.
As someone in my time-line succinctly put it: “Oh, just Civil War II. Not much.”
posted by Fizz at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
As someone in my time-line succinctly put it: “Oh, just Civil War II. Not much.”
posted by Fizz at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
As always, I like to turn to Damon Young: America, The Beautiful Fucking Joke.
posted by TwoStride at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by TwoStride at 10:19 PM on July 7, 2016
Turns out the good guy with the rifle didn't help any.
According to what the friends who were with his brother said, the weapon was not even loaded. He wasn't there with any belief he might use a gun to kill bad guys or something.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:20 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
According to what the friends who were with his brother said, the weapon was not even loaded. He wasn't there with any belief he might use a gun to kill bad guys or something.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:20 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
According to MSNBCs Chris Hayes RTing a local radio news source both suspects in custody.
it is 5 minutes later and msnbc isn't reporting it.
posted by futz at 10:25 PM on July 7, 2016
it is 5 minutes later and msnbc isn't reporting it.
posted by futz at 10:25 PM on July 7, 2016
Another Dallas PD press conference expected soon.
Local news streaming page
posted by zachlipton at 10:26 PM on July 7, 2016
Local news streaming page
posted by zachlipton at 10:26 PM on July 7, 2016
thank god his brother recognized what was going on and made him turn over his gun to police on scene or he'd probably be dead too.
That's actually my point. If he'd been instead a hard-core NRA wing nut and tried to "help", there's a lot more chance (like, near 100%) he'd be dead now. Contrary to the idiots who will always cry "more guns would have helped!"
posted by ctmf at 10:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's actually my point. If he'd been instead a hard-core NRA wing nut and tried to "help", there's a lot more chance (like, near 100%) he'd be dead now. Contrary to the idiots who will always cry "more guns would have helped!"
posted by ctmf at 10:27 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is anyone else desperately hoping the suspects are white?
posted by Talez at 10:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Talez at 10:31 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Yes.
posted by monopas at 10:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by monopas at 10:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
ctmf: Contrary to the idiots who will always cry "more guns would have helped!"
America needs less guns. Less civilian guns, less police guns, less military guns, less guns shipped to war zones and repressive regimes. Less guns.
posted by clawsoon at 10:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
America needs less guns. Less civilian guns, less police guns, less military guns, less guns shipped to war zones and repressive regimes. Less guns.
posted by clawsoon at 10:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
yes.
posted by futz at 10:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 10:33 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the point is that in the fantasy scenario of the good guy with the gun, it never ends with the good guy identified as a suspect, turning himself and his gun into the cops, and his brother frantically tweeting that he's not the killer. The real world, it turns out, does not work like we were promised.
posted by maxsparber at 10:34 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:34 PM on July 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Oh yes. One of the first things I thought.
posted by booksherpa at 10:34 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by booksherpa at 10:34 PM on July 7, 2016
Live press conference on air right now:
Police chief confirms they are STILL "negotiating" with a suspect in one of the parking garages.
There is still an active shooter situation.
posted by daq at 10:35 PM on July 7, 2016
Police chief confirms they are STILL "negotiating" with a suspect in one of the parking garages.
There is still an active shooter situation.
posted by daq at 10:35 PM on July 7, 2016
America needs less guns. Less civilian guns, less police guns, less military guns, less guns shipped to war zones and repressive regimes. Less guns.
Indeed. More ex-guns.
posted by ctmf at 10:35 PM on July 7, 2016
Indeed. More ex-guns.
posted by ctmf at 10:35 PM on July 7, 2016
it is 5 minutes later and msnbc isn't reporting it.
Fuckkkkk. Hayes deleted that tweet, clearly he was spreading shitty news too. 1 suspect in custody according to Dallas Morning News and CNN-- no official word on the 2nd, if there is one.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:36 PM on July 7, 2016
Fuckkkkk. Hayes deleted that tweet, clearly he was spreading shitty news too. 1 suspect in custody according to Dallas Morning News and CNN-- no official word on the 2nd, if there is one.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:36 PM on July 7, 2016
Dallas Police Chief Brown: currently in negotiations with a suspect involved in the shootings on the 2nd floor of the El Centro Garage. He's not very cooperative and has been exchanging more gunfire. They are making plans to end the standoff. Also have a female suspect in custody. Followed Mercedes with two suspects who had camo bags and they are in custody and being interviewed as well.
Suspect in the garage has told police "the end is coming" and he will hurt and kill more law enforcement and that there are bombs all over the garage and downtown.
Still not sure they have all the suspects and will continue to search and investigate.
(source: press conference)
posted by zachlipton at 10:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Suspect in the garage has told police "the end is coming" and he will hurt and kill more law enforcement and that there are bombs all over the garage and downtown.
Still not sure they have all the suspects and will continue to search and investigate.
(source: press conference)
posted by zachlipton at 10:36 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
the weapon was not even loaded. He wasn't there with any belief he might use a gun to kill bad guys or something.
And that is a problem for everyone! Nobody knows if YOUR gun is loaded. From what I understand, if you handle a gun you must always operate from the assumption that a gun is loaded and ready to shoot especially if the person in possession of the gun/s are brown or black.
posted by futz at 10:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
And that is a problem for everyone! Nobody knows if YOUR gun is loaded. From what I understand, if you handle a gun you must always operate from the assumption that a gun is loaded and ready to shoot especially if the person in possession of the gun/s are brown or black.
posted by futz at 10:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Police Chief, via CNN: Currently negotiating with suspect in parking garage. Suspect shooting and being non-cooperative. Have a female in custody. Have two others in custody who fled in car.
Do not have complete comfort level that they have all the suspects. Continuing to search.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:37 PM on July 7, 2016
Do not have complete comfort level that they have all the suspects. Continuing to search.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:37 PM on July 7, 2016
Oh yeah, and there was an asshole pulling his gun on BLM protesters in Portland tonight, too.
Nobody shot, thank God. And, thankfully, hauled away by the cops. But still.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Nobody shot, thank God. And, thankfully, hauled away by the cops. But still.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:38 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Dallas Police Chief Brown: Fourth officer died in surgery. 3 Dallas PD and one DART officer dead.
Mayor: This is still an active crime scene. Determining now how big the scene will be and what to do about the downtown area tomorrow morning. They'll post online by the morning the area that will be closed and workers should avoid coming in to office buildings in that area.
posted by zachlipton at 10:39 PM on July 7, 2016
Mayor: This is still an active crime scene. Determining now how big the scene will be and what to do about the downtown area tomorrow morning. They'll post online by the morning the area that will be closed and workers should avoid coming in to office buildings in that area.
posted by zachlipton at 10:39 PM on July 7, 2016
It is the assumption of the chief at this time that these four suspects were working together in this attack.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:43 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 10:43 PM on July 7, 2016
On a night where halfway across the country gunfire erupted at the Black Lives Matter rally in Dallas with deadly and devastating consequences, it appears Portland was spared tragedy only by chance.Well, chance, and he was white.
posted by ctmf at 10:43 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Please God let them be white supremacists trying to start a race war. This is looking more and more like an act of domestic terrorism.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 10:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 10:44 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Did he just say there were four of them or did I hear wrong?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:44 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:44 PM on July 7, 2016
It is the assumption of the chief at this time that these four suspects were working together in this attack.
Holy crap
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:45 PM on July 7, 2016
Holy crap
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:45 PM on July 7, 2016
Realize I owe three more motherfucking dots tonight
. . .
posted by zachlipton at 10:45 PM on July 7, 2016
. . .
posted by zachlipton at 10:45 PM on July 7, 2016
Well, chance, and he was white.
The tragedy would've been if the guy with the gun had shot anyone.
The second he pulled that gun in that video, I stopped caring all that much about his safety.
But yeah, the double standard obviously didn't take any breaks tonight.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The tragedy would've been if the guy with the gun had shot anyone.
The second he pulled that gun in that video, I stopped caring all that much about his safety.
But yeah, the double standard obviously didn't take any breaks tonight.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It is the assumption of the chief at this time that these four suspects were working together in this attack.
Holy crap
Don't set that in stone, the use of the word assumption is deliberate there. The police are understandably more focused on ending the active threat right now than working out precisely what happened. They said there will likely not be another in person press conference until the morning.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Holy crap
Don't set that in stone, the use of the word assumption is deliberate there. The police are understandably more focused on ending the active threat right now than working out precisely what happened. They said there will likely not be another in person press conference until the morning.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The suspects were in a Mercedes and followed to oak cliff.
"Mercedes" and "Oak Cliff" are kinda dog whistles for "not white" in usual Dallas language parlance so it will be interesting to see how social and news media roll with that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:52 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Mercedes" and "Oak Cliff" are kinda dog whistles for "not white" in usual Dallas language parlance so it will be interesting to see how social and news media roll with that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:52 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm already getting "thin blue line" solidarity posts on Facebook through extended family.
Same here. I think I'm gonna have to unfollow like a third of the people I know, or quit facebook, or go live with a flock of ducks for a couple months or something
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:54 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Same here. I think I'm gonna have to unfollow like a third of the people I know, or quit facebook, or go live with a flock of ducks for a couple months or something
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:54 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
"There is a special place in hell reserved for those who engage in this kind of violence at a righteous protest."
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Don't do that. Ducks are jerks.
posted by phearlez at 10:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 10:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm pretty much out of ways to say, "Stop killing us. Black lives matter." What I want to say is, "Fuck everything. Burn all this shit down." I know that's irresponsible though. I know as a scholar that I can't get in a national publication and advocate violence. I'm not advocating violence. I am advocating for every single structure built on and propagated by white supremacy to be gone. I want total transformation. I want my people to be able to live. Black rage is not irresponsible. White apathy and complicity is.
Brittany Cooper, "Black Men Are Not Lethal Weapons."
posted by TwoStride at 11:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Brittany Cooper, "Black Men Are Not Lethal Weapons."
posted by TwoStride at 11:00 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
I've been trying to process this all day between tears and trying to figure out what to say or do. I grew up next to JJ Hill, where Philandro Castile worked for years, and I'm so sorry for all the kids trying to figure out why one of their beloved caregivers was murdered by someone they're taught is supposed to protect them. We went to the same high school. I know it doesn't do any good but I'm so sorry for his family, that amazing little girl and his powerful, strong fiancé. I'm so sorry for anyone who isn't white and feels even more unsafe tonight. With everything unfolding right now I just needed to get that out. I'm just heartbroken and feeling helpless.
posted by Bacon Bit at 11:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Bacon Bit at 11:13 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Well, they've probably realized that it would look worse to delete it at this point. Better to let it stand as part of the record, unedited. For credibility.
posted by monopas at 11:13 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by monopas at 11:13 PM on July 7, 2016
I realize they're busy, but since they had enough time to tweet out his picture, they have enough time to tweet out a correction.
posted by zachlipton at 11:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 11:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
One thing I don't get is why doesn't the Dallas PD grab one of their military gifted MRAPs and scream up the parking garage and take out the sniper who they're still "negotiating" ie "exchanging fire" with.
OK, sniper says bombs are everywhere. I doubt there is any shortage of volunteers who would be willing to call that bluff.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 11:24 PM on July 7, 2016
OK, sniper says bombs are everywhere. I doubt there is any shortage of volunteers who would be willing to call that bluff.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 11:24 PM on July 7, 2016
Dang, in the video the officer who takes the rifle is perfectly professional. Gives him the contact information to get back in touch so he can get his gun back later. I imagine the callback after his face ended up tweeted out by the police had to be awkward. They gotta publicly clear his name as soon as possible.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 11:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
And the police (and others) love this - it just took the narrative from "black lives matter" to "blue lives matter", and so many will buy into the latter (CNN has completely, I don't watch FOX, but imagine they have even more) and forget the former.
posted by Death and Gravity at 11:28 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Death and Gravity at 11:28 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Periscope video of the area where Dallas police are negotiating with suspect.
(He's done some narrating off and on.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
(He's done some narrating off and on.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:32 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
No matter who the shooters are, the police don't love this, nobody loves this. Stop.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [29 favorites]
Shetamia Taylor, 37, was the one civilian shot. She was at the rally w/ her sons. She's recovering at the hospital.
posted by zachlipton at 11:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 11:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
FOX4 just reported that a 5th officer has died.
.....
posted by spinifex23 at 11:46 PM on July 7, 2016
.....
posted by spinifex23 at 11:46 PM on July 7, 2016
I should note re: that Periscope channel: The guy doing the filming has dropped a whole lot of pretty dodgy comments about BLM, Clinton, etc.
Dude has a good view of the neighborhood, but his viewpoints are pretty questionable.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Dude has a good view of the neighborhood, but his viewpoints are pretty questionable.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Tami Carr of CBS11 in Dallas reports the man who turned himself in after his picture was released by police has now been released from police custody.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:57 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 11:57 PM on July 7, 2016
And he is not too pleased with the outcome.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Fifth officer has died according to nbcdfw.com. :(
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 12:08 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 12:08 AM on July 8, 2016
DART has announced that it was their Brent Thompson, a DART officer since 2009, who was killed. The other four names have not yet been released.
.
posted by zachlipton at 12:08 AM on July 8, 2016
.
posted by zachlipton at 12:08 AM on July 8, 2016
@DallasPD confirming,
It has been a devastating night. We are sad to report a fifth officer has died.posted by XMLicious at 12:10 AM on July 8, 2016
I'm not sure if he's shooting at cops, I think it's more of a standoff situation.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fuck guns. Just ban them. This is so frustrating.
posted by adept256 at 12:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 12:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
Tami Carr of CBS11 in Dallas reports the man who turned himself in after his picture was released by police has now been released from police custody.
And yet the Dallas PD twitter account still has his photo up labeling him as a suspect.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:17 AM on July 8, 2016
And yet the Dallas PD twitter account still has his photo up labeling him as a suspect.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:17 AM on July 8, 2016
The El Centro building has been cleared but apparently two employees remain on lockdown inside the BOA
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:17 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by R.F.Simpson at 12:17 AM on July 8, 2016
The AP has more on Shetamia Taylor. She was wounded in the leg after she threw herself over her four sons, ages 12-17, when she heard the shots.
posted by zachlipton at 12:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 12:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I hate rollercoasters. The feeling that you're headed for a big drop, there's no changing where it's going, you're locked in, and there's no getting off.
I'm so feeling that right now.
posted by bitmage at 12:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm so feeling that right now.
posted by bitmage at 12:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
what the hell did i get up early for today? not this
we're either going to find a way to control and discipline police relations with minority communities or we're going to have civil insurrection, we're going to have acts of terrorism
when are the police going to develop the humility to be actual servants of the people, like they say they are?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
we're either going to find a way to control and discipline police relations with minority communities or we're going to have civil insurrection, we're going to have acts of terrorism
when are the police going to develop the humility to be actual servants of the people, like they say they are?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am seeing some reports that one of the shooters has been identified as a white supremacist, or as having white supremacist connections. I can't verify it - does anyone have more information?
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:48 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:48 AM on July 8, 2016
I'm watching the CBS11 stream. They are reporting the standoff is over. There is currently no update on the condition of the suspect.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:48 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 12:48 AM on July 8, 2016
These three DPD tweets from earlier this evening during the Dallas protest are pretty devastating in hindsight.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
CBS 11 is reporting the suspect in the standoff has killed himself.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:27 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 1:27 AM on July 8, 2016
This is going to be so bad. Bad for Black Lives Matter, bad for the cause itself. It's going to amp up every single racial justice protest. What if there are retaliatory killings by pro-cop/Trump/etc paramilitary people? This is going to increase police harassment of racial justice activists. It's going to render everything scarier and more dangerous. This is so, so bad.
posted by Frowner at 2:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [50 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 2:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [50 favorites]
Yeah Frowner that was my reaction too. There's just no way this turns out to be anything but terrible for BLM and justice. I mean, maybe if the shooters turn out to actually be white supremacists, but I think the conversation has already turned from "police murdering black people" to "support the cops, they have hard jobs" judging just from Obama's speech. (And for the record, they DO have hard jobs. They also have a culture of racism, violence and no accountability.)
I keep trying to go to sleep but I feel so sick about this.
posted by threeturtles at 2:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I keep trying to go to sleep but I feel so sick about this.
posted by threeturtles at 2:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Worth noting that it was rubber bullets and pepper spray outside the governor's mansion in St. Paul, too.
I wish I had gone - I felt so sick because I hardly slept the last couple of nights that I didn't feel like I could handle getting over there, protesting and finding my way back. I don't know, if it's still going on after work I guess I'll head over if I can get some people together.
Mefites who don't go to protests (and that's fine, I myself have been sort of hinky-feeling since the shooting at the BLM protest here) now is a great time to donate money, call your city council or mayor or governor. Please don't feel that because protests may be dangerous that there is nothing for you to do; protests are important because it's important to be visible, but they are not even remotely all of the work.
posted by Frowner at 3:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wish I had gone - I felt so sick because I hardly slept the last couple of nights that I didn't feel like I could handle getting over there, protesting and finding my way back. I don't know, if it's still going on after work I guess I'll head over if I can get some people together.
Mefites who don't go to protests (and that's fine, I myself have been sort of hinky-feeling since the shooting at the BLM protest here) now is a great time to donate money, call your city council or mayor or governor. Please don't feel that because protests may be dangerous that there is nothing for you to do; protests are important because it's important to be visible, but they are not even remotely all of the work.
posted by Frowner at 3:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
This whole episode is gut wrenching, but the immediate outpooring of grief by politicians and authorities for the police, to me, lies in stark contrast to the equivocation of their response to the deaths of so many black men.
posted by bigZLiLk at 3:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [51 favorites]
posted by bigZLiLk at 3:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [51 favorites]
Maj. Max Geron @MaxDPD
Primary and secondary sweeps for explosives are complete and no explosives found. #dallasshooting
posted by Drinky Die at 3:28 AM on July 8, 2016
Primary and secondary sweeps for explosives are complete and no explosives found. #dallasshooting
posted by Drinky Die at 3:28 AM on July 8, 2016
Just woke up to this. Crap. So do we have any idea who these shooters were/are?
posted by octothorpe at 3:33 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by octothorpe at 3:33 AM on July 8, 2016
nothing yet.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:37 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:37 AM on July 8, 2016
This is as much as has been confirmed (as per The Guardian)
- Three people have been detained by police: a woman who was stopped close to the garage, plus two people who were stopped in a dark Mercedes.posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:42 AM on July 8, 2016
- An armed standoff with a fourth suspect on a second-floor parking lot close to El Centro College, ended after local reports that the suspect killed himself. The suspect was said to have fired at police and claimed to have placed bombs in the city. Police chief David Brown said: “The suspect we are negotiating with … has told our negotiators that the end is coming and he’s going to hurt and kill more of us … and that there are bombs all over the place, here and downtown.”
- No bombs have been found after two police searches. Major Max Geron of Dallas police tweeted: “Primary and secondary sweeps for explosives are complete and no explosives found.”
How horrifying, sad, anger-inducing. Both the events and their aftermath.
The scariest part is that the nation seems totally unprepared to deal with upheaval. It's not hard to imagine things going totally out of control, with no leadership or institutions capable of holding things together.
posted by cell divide at 3:46 AM on July 8, 2016
The scariest part is that the nation seems totally unprepared to deal with upheaval. It's not hard to imagine things going totally out of control, with no leadership or institutions capable of holding things together.
posted by cell divide at 3:46 AM on July 8, 2016
I think it's probably a good idea for us white allies not to indulge in apocalyptic predictions about what the results of last night will be.
posted by maxsparber at 3:56 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 3:56 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
5:58 AM Texas time
posted by dancestoblue at 3:58 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by dancestoblue at 3:58 AM on July 8, 2016
probably a good idea for us white allies not to indulge in apocalyptic predictions
Eh. I mean hyperbolic speculation is rarely helpful but we're pretty much through the looking glass at this point. I think the consensus adjective for 2016 (per the Brexit thread) is omnishambles?
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Eh. I mean hyperbolic speculation is rarely helpful but we're pretty much through the looking glass at this point. I think the consensus adjective for 2016 (per the Brexit thread) is omnishambles?
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's a couple videos of what is alleged to be one of the shootings floating (not going to link to them), which is not a sniping, but rather a firefight. A lot of people who have seen it say it seems to be the shooter(s) seemed to be using military-style tactics, and that the sniping was similarly professionally done. I'm beginning to wonder if this was planned before the police shot Sterling and Castile.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 4:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, and fuck Joe Walsh. I hope he serves actual jail time for his racist threats.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:16 AM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 4:16 AM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
What I'm bracing myself for in the aftermath of this shooting is the police emphasis on the danger of their jobs. It is a very safe job. On this website, 6 months or so ago, I remember someone posting a link in the comments to statistics on the steadily decreasing likelihood of being killed on the job as a police officer.
You can find articles everywhere that discuss how statistically safe it is to be a police officer. I did one hell of a lazy googling and still found plenty.
Here's an article from the Economist saying that your odds of death by armed assault are 1 in 24,000. That's not far beyond a police officer's odds of being killed. In 2008 there were 750,000 arresting officers and 140 deaths, with only 54 being intentional. I don't know if this is the wrong way to come to this number, but if you divide 750,000 over 54, you get 14,000. Looking back at the Economist's chart, you're almost twice as likely to kill yourself. If you look here You can see how many other jobs are significantly more dangerous than policing.
Crime is at a historical low, too! There are no excuses for what police officers do. Society should malign and shame those who take part in these government-sanctioned hit squads. They're cruel authorities who have become too comfortable.
posted by constantinescharity at 4:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
You can find articles everywhere that discuss how statistically safe it is to be a police officer. I did one hell of a lazy googling and still found plenty.
Here's an article from the Economist saying that your odds of death by armed assault are 1 in 24,000. That's not far beyond a police officer's odds of being killed. In 2008 there were 750,000 arresting officers and 140 deaths, with only 54 being intentional. I don't know if this is the wrong way to come to this number, but if you divide 750,000 over 54, you get 14,000. Looking back at the Economist's chart, you're almost twice as likely to kill yourself. If you look here You can see how many other jobs are significantly more dangerous than policing.
Crime is at a historical low, too! There are no excuses for what police officers do. Society should malign and shame those who take part in these government-sanctioned hit squads. They're cruel authorities who have become too comfortable.
posted by constantinescharity at 4:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
Confirmation that the "fourth suspect" (the one who was in the armed standoff) has died.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:51 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:51 AM on July 8, 2016
Is there a word yet for the time spent waiting after news of another gut-wrenching murder spree? Waiting for the identities of the actors to be unveiled so everyone can come out of their corners punching? There ought to be a word.
posted by Andrew Galarneau at 4:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Andrew Galarneau at 4:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Mark Hughes' lawyers respond to their client's treatment as a "suspect" by DPD.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
From The Guardian:
Mayor Rawlings is on CNN. He confirms that a suspect was “taken out” by a police explosive device in the garage.posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:03 AM on July 8, 2016
Rawlings said he could not disclose the race of the dead suspect. He confirmed that the female suspect is a “light skinned African American”.
No bombs have been found after two police searches. Major Max Geron of Dallas police tweeted: “Primary and secondary sweeps for explosives are complete and no explosives found.
I'm glad none have been found, but Dallas is a big place. This seems kind of premature.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:03 AM on July 8, 2016
I'm glad none have been found, but Dallas is a big place. This seems kind of premature.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:03 AM on July 8, 2016
I don't really get the lawyers response. Yeah, open carry is legal. I understand that. But if you're open carrying and shooting starts, you are likely to be treated as suspicious. I know Hughes was in a lot of danger after his picture was released, but people were getting shot and killed. It was a dangerous situation all around.
posted by OmieWise at 5:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 5:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Police band audio taken from just before Castile was shot (unverified by police, but Castile's license plate is explicitly identified) indicates that he may not have been pulled over for a tail light, but because officers decided his appearance was consistent with a robbery suspect. That appearance? A "wide-set nose."
posted by maxsparber at 5:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 5:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
light skinned African American
Clearly they haven't revealed why this person is a suspect, is it possible this individual isn't actually involved just as their previous suspect wasn't involved? And how long until the info is actually released?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 5:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Clearly they haven't revealed why this person is a suspect, is it possible this individual isn't actually involved just as their previous suspect wasn't involved? And how long until the info is actually released?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 5:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, it's just a fairly common African-American facial feature. Pulling him over for that is like pulling him over because he and the suspect both have brown eyes.
posted by maxsparber at 5:16 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by maxsparber at 5:16 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
or brown... skin?
posted by entropicamericana at 5:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 5:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is Dallas, this is our city, and we don't let terrorism win: It's sickening, cowardly. It furthers no cause; it accomplishes nothing but misery and grief. It's violence for the deranged love of violence itself, disguised beneath a political veneer.
To employ a Texas colloquialism, it's chickens**t with a gun.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
To employ a Texas colloquialism, it's chickens**t with a gun.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there a word yet for the time spent waiting after news of another gut-wrenching murder spree? Waiting for the identities of the actors to be unveiled so everyone can come out of their corners punching? There ought to be a word.
The Germans would have one, except they have effective gun control laws.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
The Germans would have one, except they have effective gun control laws.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
fuck me. that is bullshit. how the fuck do you even see that in a car.
the problem is that the police are supermen only part of the time - they can see a busted taillight in traffic - they can see the shape of a guy's nose from many feet away - but they can't see the difference between a gun and a wallet when they're right up close
weird how that works
posted by pyramid termite at 5:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [71 favorites]
the problem is that the police are supermen only part of the time - they can see a busted taillight in traffic - they can see the shape of a guy's nose from many feet away - but they can't see the difference between a gun and a wallet when they're right up close
weird how that works
posted by pyramid termite at 5:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [71 favorites]
It looks like Dallas was a city where the police department was actually making an honest effort to improve. Could any Dallas MeFites give us more background?
posted by zombieflanders at 5:28 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 5:28 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here's more from Radley Balko, who is usually one of the last people to give kudos to the police.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 5:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dallas Police Chief speaking now, saying that the robot/bomb killed the suspect, and that it was not suicide.
Suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter and the police shootings, and that he wanted to kill white people.
Fuck.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter and the police shootings, and that he wanted to kill white people.
Fuck.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
“We’re not going to tell you anything about the suspects and we’re not going to answer any question on that,” said Mayor Mike Rawlings.(Source: The Guardian)
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:49 AM on July 8, 2016
I don't really understand the point of that. "We won't tell you anything about the demographics of the suspects... but they totally hated white people."
posted by Roommate at 5:53 AM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Roommate at 5:53 AM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
Yeah, they're handing over inflammatory information about the suspect, but not anything that might humanize them.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
The mayor should probably inform his chief of police to stop saying it was black people then
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
they used a robot
to kill someone
Not tase. Not gas.
posted by rebent at 5:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
to kill someone
Not tase. Not gas.
posted by rebent at 5:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
If you know completely that this person was shooting at cops then why would you not reveal any actual information? What is the point in that?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is Dallas, this is our city, and we don't let terrorism win
Yeah I popped over to the Dallas Morning News overnight in the hope that it might have some recently sourced local reporting. Saw that their website had basically been taken over by their white columnists' hot takes and noped the fuck right out.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah I popped over to the Dallas Morning News overnight in the hope that it might have some recently sourced local reporting. Saw that their website had basically been taken over by their white columnists' hot takes and noped the fuck right out.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
What sad news to wake up to.
If you know completely that this person was shooting at cops then why would you not reveal any actual information? What is the point in that?
Most charitably, perhaps because releasing more information immediately could interfere with finding accomplices or making arrests?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:02 AM on July 8, 2016
If you know completely that this person was shooting at cops then why would you not reveal any actual information? What is the point in that?
Most charitably, perhaps because releasing more information immediately could interfere with finding accomplices or making arrests?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:02 AM on July 8, 2016
Meanwhile, in Fresno...
Fuck 2016, what a shit show of a year.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:03 AM on July 8, 2016
Fuck 2016, what a shit show of a year.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:03 AM on July 8, 2016
they used a robot
to kill someone
Not tase. Not gas.
We've been doing it overseas for ten years. This is merely onshoring the postindustrial mechanism of global white supremacy.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
to kill someone
Not tase. Not gas.
We've been doing it overseas for ten years. This is merely onshoring the postindustrial mechanism of global white supremacy.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
Less charitably, the police in general have a habit of releasing (officially or via well-coordinated "leaks") information that paints their actions in the best possible light. They know as well as anyone that if you put your story out there first, that becomes the narrative, and it's almost impossible to truly correct factual inaccuracies caused by lack of context in the early reporting after the fact.
posted by tocts at 6:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by tocts at 6:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not sure how charitable I can be, I mean they released the photo of the other guy without hesitation.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
hang on a minute, when a govenment robot is sent to kill an American citizen on American soil what is the legally responsible...
fuck. Pandora, here is a nice box hope you like it!
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
fuck. Pandora, here is a nice box hope you like it!
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
@KatherineBScott: We're currently locked in the House chamber. Overheard a Capitol police officer say a woman entered Rayburn with a gun
posted by zombieflanders at 6:13 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by zombieflanders at 6:13 AM on July 8, 2016
well i'm sure the focus is going to stay on sterling and castile in the coming days and weeks
posted by entropicamericana at 6:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 6:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
Can someone explain the robot thing? He was accidentally killed by some sort of bomb-disarming robot? Was he killed on purpose by a drone? Will there be bodycam or surveillance video if he was killed on purpose? It seems crazy to kill someone you've been negotiating with for hours (unless there were hostages, I guess, but there's been no mention of hostages).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:23 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:23 AM on July 8, 2016
The shooter told police hostage negotiators he wanted to “kill officers” and “kill white people especially white officers”(Source: The Guardian)
The suspect was killed with a Dallas police bomb robot, which was sent in after negotiations broke down
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:24 AM on July 8, 2016
So the robot delivered a bomb?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Negotiations only work if both side want to negotiate.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm seeing very limited information on how the attacker in question was killed - only one or two places cite the use of a 'robot', others say he was 'blasted out'. It's also unclear if he was still in the process of shooting, or if the 'explosive' was meant to kill or merely to stun.
This has been a really tragic week, and the speculation and attribution of motives on both sides is just depressing. I think it would be nice if people could just wait for more information before accusing DPD of starting a domestic drone strike program. Just as I wish people elsewhere would stop accusing BLM of inciting a domestic terror plot before anything about the attackers is known.
posted by the_querulous_night at 6:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
This has been a really tragic week, and the speculation and attribution of motives on both sides is just depressing. I think it would be nice if people could just wait for more information before accusing DPD of starting a domestic drone strike program. Just as I wish people elsewhere would stop accusing BLM of inciting a domestic terror plot before anything about the attackers is known.
posted by the_querulous_night at 6:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
(Sorry, maybe these "bomb robots" are things everyone else has and knows about, but I'm confused...I know about robots that disarm bombs, but I don't see how those could kill people unless there was a bomb and a mistake in the disarming).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
The shooter told police hostage negotiators he wanted to “kill officers” and “kill white people especially white officers”
Is it just me or does this sound like every apocryphal right-wing newsletter story about how black people are going to kill all the white people?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is it just me or does this sound like every apocryphal right-wing newsletter story about how black people are going to kill all the white people?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Or is a bomb robot just supposed to deliver one of those light and sound bombs that surprises people while cops move in but then this one accidentally killed him?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:28 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:28 AM on July 8, 2016
The suspect that was killed after a standoff with Dallas police was killed by a bomb that authorities detonated, Dallas Police Chief David Brown says. "We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was. Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger. The suspect is deceased as a result of detonating the bomb."from CNN
posted by Roommate at 6:28 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is it just me or does this sound like every apocryphal right-wing newsletter story about how black people are going to kill all the white people?
Never read an of those newsletters. What concerns me is that it doesn't sound like imminent threat of death or serious injury.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:29 AM on July 8, 2016
Never read an of those newsletters. What concerns me is that it doesn't sound like imminent threat of death or serious injury.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:29 AM on July 8, 2016
Chief: Dallas Shooting Suspect Killed When Police Robot Detonated Bomb:
posted by fatbird at 6:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
"We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was. Other options would have exposed the officers to grave danger,"omfg.
posted by fatbird at 6:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
"We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was. Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger.
I'm strugging not to see this as pretty much stating they executed the suspect via a bomb when, by their own telling, no officer was in danger.
posted by jaduncan at 6:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [58 favorites]
I'm strugging not to see this as pretty much stating they executed the suspect via a bomb when, by their own telling, no officer was in danger.
posted by jaduncan at 6:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [58 favorites]
Even in that statement it is unclear whether this was a bomb that the suspect had or... like a bomb the police had on hand? I mean I don't feel much sympathy for the shooter but is that something we even let police do is drone strike people now?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
who could have possibly predicted that drone warfare would eventually be used domestically
posted by entropicamericana at 6:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 6:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [35 favorites]
"We saw no other option..."
We had to kill the black person. They made us do it
Simply stunning even by the standards of the last six months.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
We had to kill the black person. They made us do it
Simply stunning even by the standards of the last six months.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
Ugh, my mind is completely unfocused with the shock of these 3 events. Saddened that some individual(s) chose to hijack what was by all reports a very peaceful and inspiring protest where BLM activists and Dallas PD were treating each other with respect and dignity. Saddened that someone chose to insert violence into the lives of both the officers and and protesters.
I am alarmed that an explosive device was used to neutralize this suspect. I understand that the situation was extremely dangerous and the officer in charge must've determined that there was no effective way to neutralize the suspect in a non-lethal manner without exposing officers to further risk but it does seem like a virtually unprecedented strategy for neutralizing a subject.
The number of questions this event raises are massive and yes I am afraid that it will eclipse the senseless deaths of Castile and Sterling.
posted by vuron at 6:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
I am alarmed that an explosive device was used to neutralize this suspect. I understand that the situation was extremely dangerous and the officer in charge must've determined that there was no effective way to neutralize the suspect in a non-lethal manner without exposing officers to further risk but it does seem like a virtually unprecedented strategy for neutralizing a subject.
The number of questions this event raises are massive and yes I am afraid that it will eclipse the senseless deaths of Castile and Sterling.
posted by vuron at 6:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think it's pretty clear it was the police's own bomb ("device") that they placed on their "bomb robot" to "detonate where the suspect was".
posted by Roommate at 6:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Roommate at 6:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it's pretty easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking at this point. Admittedly the situation and use of a bomb sounds odd, but maybe we can lay off deciding whether it was the right or wrong move until more facts come in.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
Fox News is unsurprisingly saying the cops detonated the shooter's device.
posted by agregoli at 6:37 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by agregoli at 6:37 AM on July 8, 2016
The whole thing is odd. 12 hours and nothing on the identities, or am I missing something?
posted by mikelieman at 6:37 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by mikelieman at 6:37 AM on July 8, 2016
yeah, it's odd that more facts aren't coming in. how do you identify 100% the wrong dude, not really retract it, blow someone up by robot bomb, and not give the public his identity?
posted by nadawi at 6:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm torn. On the one hand, yes. It's fairer and better to reserve judgement until we can get more facts.
On the other hand the police are not reserving judgement or getting all the facts before they kill us. So. I dunno.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
On the other hand the police are not reserving judgement or getting all the facts before they kill us. So. I dunno.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
Too bad the shooter didn’t livestream the negotiations so that we would know what was actually said. For example: was this person warned that detonation was imminent?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
NPR reported that the dead gunman claimed he was acting alone.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:39 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:39 AM on July 8, 2016
The only vaguely coherent thought I can frame at present is Jesus fuck, could we maybe just get through like 24 or 12 hours without more executions or other devastating horrifying shit happening, just so we can catch our fucking breaths, please?
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I think waiting for more information and being skeptical about the police spin on it is important.
At the same time, one thing we here on metafilter can do is keep the focus on the state, state racism, the blocking of channels of justice for Black people (and for other marginalized Americans). The only legitimate purpose for the state is to do a better job than just anyone on the street in providing for the people, and that is not happening right now.
posted by Frowner at 6:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
At the same time, one thing we here on metafilter can do is keep the focus on the state, state racism, the blocking of channels of justice for Black people (and for other marginalized Americans). The only legitimate purpose for the state is to do a better job than just anyone on the street in providing for the people, and that is not happening right now.
posted by Frowner at 6:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
I agree that it's unclear what type of explosive device was used to neutralize the suspect. You would assume that some sort of non-lethal explosive device like a flashbang or a tear gas grenade could also be used to neutralize or flush a target from the location.
In theory I guess it's possible that the suspect had some explosive devices that were triggered by a non-lethal explosive device but we are simply guessing at this point.
It does seem like a very unusual tactical choice and was almost certainly based upon a fear that the suspect had explosive devices because otherwise SWAT in heavy body armor and ballistic shields probably could've been used.
posted by vuron at 6:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
In theory I guess it's possible that the suspect had some explosive devices that were triggered by a non-lethal explosive device but we are simply guessing at this point.
It does seem like a very unusual tactical choice and was almost certainly based upon a fear that the suspect had explosive devices because otherwise SWAT in heavy body armor and ballistic shields probably could've been used.
posted by vuron at 6:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
NPR reported that the dead gunman claimed he was acting alone.
Please don't post things you hear on the radio without a link. There's no evidence of anyone saying this online that I can find.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:44 AM on July 8, 2016
Please don't post things you hear on the radio without a link. There's no evidence of anyone saying this online that I can find.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:44 AM on July 8, 2016
is the phrase 'neutralize the suspect' necessary? we don't have to repeat their obscuring terminology.
posted by nadawi at 6:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
In theory I guess it's possible that the suspect had some explosive devices that were triggered by a non-lethal explosive device but we are simply guessing at this point.
Alternatively, they strapped a claymore to Johnny-5, and set him loose...
posted by mikelieman at 6:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Alternatively, they strapped a claymore to Johnny-5, and set him loose...
posted by mikelieman at 6:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
OK here it is from the Atlantic on the press conference:
"“He was upset about Black Lives Matter,” Brown said of the suspect. “He was upset about” the shootings in Louisiana and Minnesota. He said “he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.”
Brown said the suspect said he wasn’t affiliated with any group and was acting alone. “The suspects said other things that are part oft his investigation,” he said."
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:45 AM on July 8, 2016
"“He was upset about Black Lives Matter,” Brown said of the suspect. “He was upset about” the shootings in Louisiana and Minnesota. He said “he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.”
Brown said the suspect said he wasn’t affiliated with any group and was acting alone. “The suspects said other things that are part oft his investigation,” he said."
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:45 AM on July 8, 2016
Police dropped a bomb on the MOVE house on Philadelphia in 1978, so this isn't without precedent. Terrible, terrible precedent.
posted by maxsparber at 6:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 6:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
The NY Post (again, not linking because fuck them) is headlining this as "Civil War." People are going to die because of that, and may the blood be on their hands.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's almost certain that the only people who heard him say these things are police officers, so excuse me if I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. I hope somewhere there is video, or the shooter left a note, so we don't have to forever just take their word for it.
posted by AFABulous at 6:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 6:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
Translation: I will disclose things that are extremely favorable for our side of things, which I perhaps just pulled out of my ass, and keep the actual facts super secret.
What about the quoted section from the police is "extremely favorable" to them? I'm honestly confused. Because I assume that someone who shoots up a bunch of cops wants the cops dead.
posted by OmieWise at 6:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
What about the quoted section from the police is "extremely favorable" to them? I'm honestly confused. Because I assume that someone who shoots up a bunch of cops wants the cops dead.
posted by OmieWise at 6:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
And now a Kansas City police officer is apparently sending death threats to black children and their parents.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:53 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by zombieflanders at 6:53 AM on July 8, 2016
It's unclear that the police have many more facts than the rest of us. They have a dead suspect who apparently made a bunch of contradictory statements before negotiations completely broke down. They have some other suspects in custody but it's unclear if they are linked or not.
At this point it's impossible to determine if this was a lone gunman or a group of gunmen. Eye witness testimony in these sorts of events is hideously unreliable and with a crowded loud environment with lots of buildings for echoes to bounce off it's going to be hard to determine exactly what went on until as much video evidence as possible is reviewed.
I wish that the police chief was more circumspect about discussing any of the statements made by the suspect until more detail is known.
posted by vuron at 6:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
At this point it's impossible to determine if this was a lone gunman or a group of gunmen. Eye witness testimony in these sorts of events is hideously unreliable and with a crowded loud environment with lots of buildings for echoes to bounce off it's going to be hard to determine exactly what went on until as much video evidence as possible is reviewed.
I wish that the police chief was more circumspect about discussing any of the statements made by the suspect until more detail is known.
posted by vuron at 6:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'll retain a healthy skepticism of media, politicians and police as always, but five people were just killed, more people injured including two civilians. I'm finding the knee jerk need to rationalize a defense for a mass murderer really gross.
posted by the_querulous_night at 6:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by the_querulous_night at 6:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
Yeah, at the moment, I'm not blaming the cops for killing someone who seemingly refused to surrender, had already killed several cops and was promising to shoot more. That opinion may change once more facts are known, but at the moment it seems understandable, if regrettable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
While I agree the quotes about killing white officers seem cherry-picked, the quote about the suspect not being affiliated with any group doesn't fit the presumed police narrative. Neither does this. Despite the many instances of police creating and encouraging disgusting narratives of POC violence, I don't see how the DPD statements can be read as being anti-BLM, especially given the DPD's fairly cozy relationship (comparatively) with BLM
posted by R.F.Simpson at 6:56 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by R.F.Simpson at 6:56 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Full, complete, total, open transparency is what I expect from people paid with our tax dollars.
The police have a a fact, present it without spin to everyone. It's what I'm paying for.
posted by mikelieman at 6:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
The police have a a fact, present it without spin to everyone. It's what I'm paying for.
posted by mikelieman at 6:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't think it's helpful to frame this mass shooting as an "us vs them" matter, because that implicitly makes BLM responsible for this tragedy. This is a mass shooting, we should be discussing it in the same context as Orlando and any number of other massacres.
posted by Think_Long at 6:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Think_Long at 6:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
who is defending the shooter? you can condemn the shooter and still think the way information has been released is sketchy as hell (and not even consistent with what they did a a couple of hours before) or think bomb robots are a step further than we'd like our civilian police forces to go, no matter the circumstance.
posted by nadawi at 6:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
What about the quoted section from the police is "extremely favorable" to them?
The narrative that police are under attack and in constant justifiable fear for their lives serves to excuse (in many people's minds) virtually any action by the police. See the two shootings of the last couple of days and "He's got a gun!"
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
The narrative that police are under attack and in constant justifiable fear for their lives serves to excuse (in many people's minds) virtually any action by the police. See the two shootings of the last couple of days and "He's got a gun!"
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
Dallas Police Officers Killed By Snipers: What We Know Friday (NPR, July 8, 20168:15 AM ET)
A coordinated sniper attack in Dallas killed five police officers Thursday, in a bout of violence that didn't end until the last of at least two snipers who had fired on police died in a parking garage. Police say at least four people were involved in the attack and that they have three suspects in custody.Police are witholding more information as their investigation is ongoing.
In addition to the five officers who were slain, seven were wounded in the attack that began just before 9 p.m. local time, at the end of a downtown protest march that was held to condemn two police killings of black men in other cities earlier this week.
...
Police have three suspects, including one woman, in custody; another suspect died after an hours-long standoff with police at a parking garage at El Centro College in downtown Dallas.
Police Chief David Brown said the suspect told negotiators "the end was coming," that he's "going to hurt and kill more" law enforcement, and that there were bombs planted all over the garage and downtown.
Just before dawn Friday, police said their sweeps for explosives had turned up no such devices.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:58 AM on July 8, 2016
It's an active investigation, I'd be much angrier if they were releasing every scrap of evidence as they went with no context or critical assessment. They can't get a fully 12 hours of investigation in without accusations of a cover up being thrown about?
posted by the_querulous_night at 7:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by the_querulous_night at 7:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
I feel like they aren't telling because for the following speculated reasons:
1) suspects are military
Or
2)one or more of the suspects is white.
The lack of reporting demographics or mentioning the color of the suspects has me suspicious.
I don't trust police. If there was nothing to say they would have filled it with bullshit facts.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
1) suspects are military
Or
2)one or more of the suspects is white.
The lack of reporting demographics or mentioning the color of the suspects has me suspicious.
I don't trust police. If there was nothing to say they would have filled it with bullshit facts.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
when this is still up but they won't identify the actual suspects, yeah, i'm gonna say something is odd. that man's picture should have been removed immediately with an apology.
posted by nadawi at 7:03 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:03 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
The narrative that "this is 100% the fault of Black Lives Matter and Obama because they made people not like the police" is already being shouted in places like the National Review comments section. It's going to be a bad summer. It already is a bad summer.
posted by clawsoon at 7:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
They had to kill the shooter because he said he wanted to "kill white people/ the police."
So, you have to kill him.
See.
So they used a bomb, actually carried a bomb to him on a robot, to kill him.
They couldn't have waited, tried to talk him into surrendering.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:07 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, you have to kill him.
See.
So they used a bomb, actually carried a bomb to him on a robot, to kill him.
They couldn't have waited, tried to talk him into surrendering.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:07 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
we all know hateful things are being said in terrible places comment sections. it's not necessary to post it here.
posted by nadawi at 7:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
Releasing information into the wild at this point would be extremely problematic (see the completely unaffiliated protester who was doing open carry at the protest).
I would rather the police move slowly before releasing the name of the deceased suspect or the other 3 suspects. It's easy to introduce prejudicial and incorrect information but very very hard to put incorrect information back into the bottle.
Considering the mistake made considering the open carry protester I would definitely prefer the DPD to act in a cautious manner and I am a bit saddened by the DPD police chief providing as many anecdotes as he did.
This is a situation that could've ended in an even more tragic way for a lot of people at the scene, I'm not sure that the DPD response was the best one possible but I'm also not going to presuppose bad intent this early.
posted by vuron at 7:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would rather the police move slowly before releasing the name of the deceased suspect or the other 3 suspects. It's easy to introduce prejudicial and incorrect information but very very hard to put incorrect information back into the bottle.
Considering the mistake made considering the open carry protester I would definitely prefer the DPD to act in a cautious manner and I am a bit saddened by the DPD police chief providing as many anecdotes as he did.
This is a situation that could've ended in an even more tragic way for a lot of people at the scene, I'm not sure that the DPD response was the best one possible but I'm also not going to presuppose bad intent this early.
posted by vuron at 7:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump's statement on the shootings, which is... not terrible, considering the source. He calls Castile's and Sterling's deaths "senseless and tragic."
posted by AFABulous at 7:11 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 7:11 AM on July 8, 2016
And now a Kansas City police officer is apparently sending death threats to black children and their parents.
The guy works for Overland Park, KS. They just issued a statement. I don't think they're pleased.
posted by thelonius at 7:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
The guy works for Overland Park, KS. They just issued a statement. I don't think they're pleased.
posted by thelonius at 7:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
He calls Castile's and Sterling's deaths "senseless and tragic."
He also calls them "motorists," which is weirdly evasive.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
He also calls them "motorists," which is weirdly evasive.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
the LA times has tweeted a name of the suspect, but maybe holding off a little bit before assuming it's right seems the best course?
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016
"Full, complete, total, open transparency is what I expect from people paid with our tax dollars.
The police have a a fact, present it without spin to everyone. It's what I'm paying for."
DPD Chief: Yes, so we just received a tip that there are suspects hiding at 97145 Dartridge Drive and the SWAT team is preparing to go there and raid that address... they should be there in about 20-25 minutes, again it's 97145 Dartridge Drive, that's the address we have and we're going to be there in about 25 minutes.
posted by gertzedek at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
The police have a a fact, present it without spin to everyone. It's what I'm paying for."
DPD Chief: Yes, so we just received a tip that there are suspects hiding at 97145 Dartridge Drive and the SWAT team is preparing to go there and raid that address... they should be there in about 20-25 minutes, again it's 97145 Dartridge Drive, that's the address we have and we're going to be there in about 25 minutes.
posted by gertzedek at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
if they're suddenly being so circumspect, why is the protester's picture still up? anyone who goes to the dallas pd twitter page and scrolls down, sees that man with suspect next to his picture. how can they have it both ways? 'well terrible mistakes were made in publishing a totally innocent but 'person of interest' picture, so we aren't going to tell you who the suspects we killed are - we're totes sure they're the right people trust us - but we're also not going to remove the picture of the guy we know is innocent.' like - that makes no sense.
posted by nadawi at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
If they don't want to release pictures and names yet, that's ok. But the fact we haven't gotten the basic demographic from them bothers me. For example 'mid 50s white male with prior violence history' or whatnot has me concerned.
They haven't even released that for the deceased suspect.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
They haven't even released that for the deceased suspect.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
if they're suddenly being so circumspect, why is the protester's picture still up?
Maybe there are public record laws that apply here?
posted by gertzedek at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016
Maybe there are public record laws that apply here?
posted by gertzedek at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016
There may be internal processes governing when and how social media messages are deleted, at the very least a pinned correction would be nice though.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The narrative that police are under attack and in constant justifiable fear for their lives serves to excuse (in many people's minds) virtually any action by the police.
Yeah, I'm not seeing that at all. The rhetorical force of saying the guy said he wants to kill police is a hell of a lot less that the rhetorical force of him, actually, shooting and killing police. I understand the generalized frustration and suspicion, but given the facts, I think it's a real stretch to read the statements about what the suspect said as somehow providing cover for the cops. Just to reiterate, the guy killed a bunch of cops.
posted by OmieWise at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not seeing that at all. The rhetorical force of saying the guy said he wants to kill police is a hell of a lot less that the rhetorical force of him, actually, shooting and killing police. I understand the generalized frustration and suspicion, but given the facts, I think it's a real stretch to read the statements about what the suspect said as somehow providing cover for the cops. Just to reiterate, the guy killed a bunch of cops.
posted by OmieWise at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I mean, they are putting that guy's life at risk if his picture is left up on the twitter.
posted by Frowner at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 7:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
Of course, it's possible that they had the wrong guy, and he didn't kill any cops. In which case the statements are cover. But that doesn't seem to be what people are suggesting.
posted by OmieWise at 7:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by OmieWise at 7:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The first guy's picture needs to come down, absolutely.
If they are not sure they have all the people involved, it makes sense for them to be circumspect. It really is very early.
This particular PD has been reaching out to BLM, which makes this shooting even more of a sick joke.
Can we not with the JFK thing, c'mon ya'll.
I too would like more details on what happened with the suspect's bomb and the robot. It sounds like a possible cock-up; like the robot was supposed to disarm it but detonated it. Or the negotiator absolutely failed and ordered it to happen.
(I do not believe the DPD has bomb-laden robots, just the regular old suspicious-package-detonating kind).
posted by emjaybee at 7:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
If they are not sure they have all the people involved, it makes sense for them to be circumspect. It really is very early.
This particular PD has been reaching out to BLM, which makes this shooting even more of a sick joke.
Can we not with the JFK thing, c'mon ya'll.
I too would like more details on what happened with the suspect's bomb and the robot. It sounds like a possible cock-up; like the robot was supposed to disarm it but detonated it. Or the negotiator absolutely failed and ordered it to happen.
(I do not believe the DPD has bomb-laden robots, just the regular old suspicious-package-detonating kind).
posted by emjaybee at 7:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
They likely published his picture because they thought he was a suspect and nobody communicated up to the top that he had already been in contact with police. If you think someone might be a danger, you put out their picture so the public can help identify them. There is not an immediate danger in waiting to release information about suspects that are dead or in custody. They are going to want to do things like contact next of kin first for the dead suspect.
I have no idea why they haven't taken down the picture yet though.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:18 AM on July 8, 2016
I have no idea why they haven't taken down the picture yet though.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:18 AM on July 8, 2016
I would definitely urge people to contact the DPD and request that they retract the tweet concerning the protester that was considered a person of interest. Hopefully the DPD has Public Relations officers and/or a department that can delete (or preferably retract the tweet with an explanation that the individual is no longer a person of interest).
I do not want them to compound one mistake with another series of mistakes. I am curious to find out more about the situation too but I also don't want anyone being unfairly linked to these crimes prior to determining the extent and if there are any co conspirators that haven't been apprehended yet.
posted by vuron at 7:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do not want them to compound one mistake with another series of mistakes. I am curious to find out more about the situation too but I also don't want anyone being unfairly linked to these crimes prior to determining the extent and if there are any co conspirators that haven't been apprehended yet.
posted by vuron at 7:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
DPD has been begged since the moment they put that picture up and it was found to be total bullshit to take it down. they aren't listening.
posted by nadawi at 7:20 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:20 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
He also calls them "motorists," which is weirdly evasive.
Surely not harking back to the days of The Negro Motorist Green Book. I mean, that is surely not where his frame of reference is anchored, right?
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:21 AM on July 8, 2016
Surely not harking back to the days of The Negro Motorist Green Book. I mean, that is surely not where his frame of reference is anchored, right?
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:21 AM on July 8, 2016
No it's just trump using all those best words he knows.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, at the moment, I'm not blaming the cops for killing someone who seemingly refused to surrender, had already killed several cops and was promising to shoot more. That opinion may change once more facts are known, but at the moment it seems understandable, if regrettable.
Upthread, before the Dallas shootings, there was lots of talk about how imminent danger needs to be the standard for use of lethal force. Refusing to surrender, having killed cops, and threatening to kill more (without immediate means to do so) is not imminent threat. Having bombs around would be imminent threat, but not a threat that's diffused by killing him.
So maybe there was something else that was an imminent threat that we don't know about, but I don't see much reason to give the benefit of the doubt and assume there was.
This is not a justification of what the man did. I just don't believe in capital punishment, and summary execution least of all.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Upthread, before the Dallas shootings, there was lots of talk about how imminent danger needs to be the standard for use of lethal force. Refusing to surrender, having killed cops, and threatening to kill more (without immediate means to do so) is not imminent threat. Having bombs around would be imminent threat, but not a threat that's diffused by killing him.
So maybe there was something else that was an imminent threat that we don't know about, but I don't see much reason to give the benefit of the doubt and assume there was.
This is not a justification of what the man did. I just don't believe in capital punishment, and summary execution least of all.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
If DPD are being non-responsive then contact the people that they report to.
Dallas Mayor
Dallas City Council
Dallas City Manager
We exist in a democracy and we can make out voices heard.
posted by vuron at 7:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dallas Mayor
Dallas City Council
Dallas City Manager
We exist in a democracy and we can make out voices heard.
posted by vuron at 7:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
This particular PD has been reaching out to BLM, which makes this shooting even more of a sick joke.
That's what's weird. It looks like the Dallas PD should be considered, if not a model, at least an example of trying to do right by the people they claim to protect. Last year the mayor said that he was more afraid of white men with guns than Syrian refugees, which is not only the truth, but a powerful thing to say in a state and city with a long history of right-wing support for bigoted violence. Without a solid factual reason (legal or otherwise) behind keeping the tweet up, it seems like throwing away a lot of good will and outreach of exactly the kind we need right now.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
That's what's weird. It looks like the Dallas PD should be considered, if not a model, at least an example of trying to do right by the people they claim to protect. Last year the mayor said that he was more afraid of white men with guns than Syrian refugees, which is not only the truth, but a powerful thing to say in a state and city with a long history of right-wing support for bigoted violence. Without a solid factual reason (legal or otherwise) behind keeping the tweet up, it seems like throwing away a lot of good will and outreach of exactly the kind we need right now.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
To be fair: the police department is down 10 officers who everyone in the department knew. There are suspects in custody with enough tactical knowledge to pull something like this off. The press is bugging the shit out of them. The twitter feed is not likely on their lists of prioroties.
It's a stupid mistake, but a crisis mode mistake.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
It's a stupid mistake, but a crisis mode mistake.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
The pic is pretty far down their Twitter feed but I sent a complaint just now asking them to take it down for his safety.
posted by emjaybee at 7:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 7:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is not a justification of what the man did. I just don't believe in capital punishment, and summary execution least of all.
At this point, I understand the DPD's unwillingness to risk the lives of more officers to put the shooter down. That understanding may change once more facts are known.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
At this point, I understand the DPD's unwillingness to risk the lives of more officers to put the shooter down. That understanding may change once more facts are known.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
...and what harm comes from simply waiting it out until the suspect gives up?
posted by idb at 7:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by idb at 7:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
the innocent man has been all over print and television news discussing how he's been cleared. the dpd and their higher ups know the picture is still there. they're not removing it for...reasons, but they're also not discussing those reasons or even just verbally retracting it 'he is not a suspect. our teams miscommunicated with each other and this is our mistake.' but they're not doing that. his picture being up still puts him in danger.
posted by nadawi at 7:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
But the fact we haven't gotten the basic demographic from them bothers me.
If the suspect is a black male, I particularly appreciate that they are keeping this fact under wraps til they verify his affiliations, accomplices, and prior history rather than making a very volatile situation between police everywhere and protestors even more fraught.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
If the suspect is a black male, I particularly appreciate that they are keeping this fact under wraps til they verify his affiliations, accomplices, and prior history rather than making a very volatile situation between police everywhere and protestors even more fraught.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
...and what harm comes from simply waiting it out until the suspect gives up?
They were down 10+ officers, in a situation where they had no idea how many other suspects/terrorists were out there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
They were down 10+ officers, in a situation where they had no idea how many other suspects/terrorists were out there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
DPD Chief: Yes, so we just received a tip that there are suspects hiding at 97145 Dartridge Drive and the SWAT team is preparing to go there and raid that address... they should be there in about 20-25 minutes, again it's 97145 Dartridge Drive, that's the address we have and we're going to be there in about 25 minutes.
That's a fine reductio there, but you know, when a suspect is blown up by the police there really isn't a whole lot of tactical-stuff left regarding him, is there?
posted by mikelieman at 7:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's a fine reductio there, but you know, when a suspect is blown up by the police there really isn't a whole lot of tactical-stuff left regarding him, is there?
posted by mikelieman at 7:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, back in Minneapolis: Facebook ‘glitch’ that deleted the Philando Castile shooting vid: It was the police – sources
On Thursday, Facebook said a “technical glitch" caused the recording to be pulled from its social network. However, Reynolds claimed officers seized her phone and took over her Facebook account to delete the evidence.posted by zombieflanders at 7:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [57 favorites]
Multiple sources with knowledge of the event have tonight confirmed to The Register that someone – highly suspected to be the city's police – used her phone to remove her recording from public view shortly after the shooting.
That move prevented anyone from sharing and watching the vid, until the material was restored about an hour later with a graphic content warning. In the meantime, copies of the footage spread across Twitter and YouTube.
“They took my phone. They took over my Facebook. They took everything I had at the time,” said Reynolds in an emotional press conference after she was arrested by police.
The rhetorical force of saying the guy said he wants to kill police is a hell of a lot less that the rhetorical force of him, actually, shooting and killing police.
And yet, the police chief chooses to emphasize that he was out to kill cops while specifically refusing to release other information. Why was it so important to get that out there in the first 12 hours? I'm sure it wasn't a conscious choice by the chief -- he didn't say to himself, "Okay, how can I advance the 'cops are under attack' narrative?" -- but it's definitely part and parcel of that belief (that we've heard from people on this very website).
posted by Etrigan at 7:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
And yet, the police chief chooses to emphasize that he was out to kill cops while specifically refusing to release other information. Why was it so important to get that out there in the first 12 hours? I'm sure it wasn't a conscious choice by the chief -- he didn't say to himself, "Okay, how can I advance the 'cops are under attack' narrative?" -- but it's definitely part and parcel of that belief (that we've heard from people on this very website).
posted by Etrigan at 7:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
What in the fuck is msnbc doing? They overlaid the police chief announcing the suspect's discussions with police, with some kind of choral music like it was a movie. Uh, I really just want the information, not some kind of weird vine you're trying to make.
posted by cashman at 7:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by cashman at 7:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
new york times :
“I just got out of an interrogation room for about 30 minutes, where police officers were lying, saying they had video of me shooting a gun, which is a lie, saying that they had witnesses saying I had shot a gun, which is a lie,” he said. “At the end of the day, the system was trying to get me.”posted by nadawi at 7:33 AM on July 8, 2016 [49 favorites]
Mr. Hughes said he had not received an apology: “We asked them, we said, now you all have my face on national news, are you going to come out and say this young man had nothing to do with this?”
Mr. Hughes said his brother had received death threats.
...and what harm comes from simply waiting it out until the suspect gives up?
All the facts aren't in, so I don't know. What we do know if that shot ten cops and wasn't surrendering, so the police being unwilling to risk more lives to kill him and thus completely prevent him from doing any more harm is understandable, at this point.
That's a fine reductio there, but you know, when a suspect is blown up by the police there really isn't a whole lot of tactical-stuff left regarding him, is there?
Neither you or I have any idea of the state of the body or the scene, so please stop commenting as if you do.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
All the facts aren't in, so I don't know. What we do know if that shot ten cops and wasn't surrendering, so the police being unwilling to risk more lives to kill him and thus completely prevent him from doing any more harm is understandable, at this point.
That's a fine reductio there, but you know, when a suspect is blown up by the police there really isn't a whole lot of tactical-stuff left regarding him, is there?
Neither you or I have any idea of the state of the body or the scene, so please stop commenting as if you do.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
At the same time, one thing we here on metafilter can do is keep the focus on the state, state racism, the blocking of channels of justice for Black people (and for other marginalized Americans). The only legitimate purpose for the state is to do a better job than just anyone on the street in providing for the people, and that is not happening right now.
The Right has Think Tanks...The Left has? Southern Poverty Law Center, NAACP, ACLU, but I think we need a Think Tank that researches, publishes, and crafts legislation. Is there anything like that? I know that a National Task Force may be proposed but those things always end with a lot of recommendations that don't get followed up on. BLM is a starting point but the message needs to resonate with everyone. There needs to be ads. There needs to be documentaries and speeches and books and art and movies and music. Aside from controlling the message there needs to be some drastic changes in how the local police operate in America and that will only change at a community level.
What happens if we disarm the police?
What happens if more women and more POC are recruited into the Police Force?
What about changes to the training protocols?
What can we learn from Police Forces around the world?
One thing that must absolutely stop is the militarization of our Police Forces. Less weaponry, more training.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
The Right has Think Tanks...The Left has? Southern Poverty Law Center, NAACP, ACLU, but I think we need a Think Tank that researches, publishes, and crafts legislation. Is there anything like that? I know that a National Task Force may be proposed but those things always end with a lot of recommendations that don't get followed up on. BLM is a starting point but the message needs to resonate with everyone. There needs to be ads. There needs to be documentaries and speeches and books and art and movies and music. Aside from controlling the message there needs to be some drastic changes in how the local police operate in America and that will only change at a community level.
What happens if we disarm the police?
What happens if more women and more POC are recruited into the Police Force?
What about changes to the training protocols?
What can we learn from Police Forces around the world?
One thing that must absolutely stop is the militarization of our Police Forces. Less weaponry, more training.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
A very moving reflection by Stacia Brown: For Alton. For Philando. For All.
posted by EvaDestruction at 7:36 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by EvaDestruction at 7:36 AM on July 8, 2016
The cops were under attack but unlike your local supermarket or, say, firemen - the police should be trained to handle situations where they are under attack.
That is, being under attack is part of the job description.
I'm beginning to suspect the root problem, behind all the senseless killing the police have been engaged in for the last couple years, has to do with bad training.
That is, cops are trained to be fearful and suspicious and ready to shoot.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
That is, being under attack is part of the job description.
I'm beginning to suspect the root problem, behind all the senseless killing the police have been engaged in for the last couple years, has to do with bad training.
That is, cops are trained to be fearful and suspicious and ready to shoot.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I feel like a crazy situation where the cops have no idea whether there are other suspects or bombs or where any of those things might be is a great time to try to take a suspect alive rather than blowing him up with Johnny-5 and destroying whatever helpful knowledge he may have.
posted by beerperson at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
I'm with the secret life of gravy.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by From Bklyn at 7:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
That is, being under attack is part of the job description.
That's just the thing, though. It's not. The police are rarely, very very rarely, under attack. They're used to being the ones doing the attacking, and so it's no surprise that they have no idea how to handle any situation where they have to be on the defensive. We see this time and time again. If you put a cop on his guard, you're dead.
posted by dis_integration at 7:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
That's just the thing, though. It's not. The police are rarely, very very rarely, under attack. They're used to being the ones doing the attacking, and so it's no surprise that they have no idea how to handle any situation where they have to be on the defensive. We see this time and time again. If you put a cop on his guard, you're dead.
posted by dis_integration at 7:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
I'm beginning to suspect the root problem, behind all the senseless killing the police have been engaged in for the last couple years, has to do with bad training.
FBI's warning of white supremacists infiltrating law enforcement nearly forgotten
posted by enn at 7:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [38 favorites]
FBI's warning of white supremacists infiltrating law enforcement nearly forgotten
posted by enn at 7:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [38 favorites]
The Right has Think Tanks...The Left has? Southern Poverty Law Center, NAACP, ACLU, but I think we need a Think Tank that researches, publishes, and crafts legislation. Is there anything like that?
Yes. State Innovation Exchange (merging of former organizations ALICE and Progressive States Network in 2014 -- the PSN was originally founded as an answer to ALEC.) Also, the TCF: The Century Foundation
posted by zarq at 7:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes. State Innovation Exchange (merging of former organizations ALICE and Progressive States Network in 2014 -- the PSN was originally founded as an answer to ALEC.) Also, the TCF: The Century Foundation
posted by zarq at 7:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Black Lives Matter Leaders Condemn Police Shootings in Dallas
posted by dysh at 7:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by dysh at 7:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
Regardless of who the shooter was or what he hoped to achieve, all that will come out of this is the "bad apples" will feel even more justified in using force against black people, and there will be less political will to rein them in.
Just garbage, everything about this is garbage.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Just garbage, everything about this is garbage.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
That's just the thing, though. It's not. The police are rarely, very very rarely, under attack. They're used to being the ones doing the attacking, and so it's no surprise that they have no idea how to handle any situation where they have to be on the defensive. We see this time and time again. If you put a cop on his guard, you're dead.
Exactly. Police departments and officers like to fantasize that they're military organizations and swathe themselves in the applicable costumes and weapons and trappings, but they have nowhere remotely near that level of discipline or training. Which is not at all to say that military units themselves are necessarily models of rational action and grace under fire either, but at least they make a basic effort to train and drill and prepare soldiers not to routinely lose their fucking marbles in any random tense or volatile interaction with civilians.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Exactly. Police departments and officers like to fantasize that they're military organizations and swathe themselves in the applicable costumes and weapons and trappings, but they have nowhere remotely near that level of discipline or training. Which is not at all to say that military units themselves are necessarily models of rational action and grace under fire either, but at least they make a basic effort to train and drill and prepare soldiers not to routinely lose their fucking marbles in any random tense or volatile interaction with civilians.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Exactly. Police departments and officers like to fantasize that they're military organizations and swathe themselves in the applicable costumes and weapons and trappings, but they have nowhere remotely near that level of discipline or training.
DPD has said several times this morning they will not militarize because of this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
DPD has said several times this morning they will not militarize because of this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Even if DPD is being rational about this, I can guarantee there are other departments across the country filing new budget requests as we speak.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 7:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
DPD has said several times this morning they will not militarize because of this.
That's good to hear. They seem to be trying to take a calm and measured approach to this whole mess.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
That's good to hear. They seem to be trying to take a calm and measured approach to this whole mess.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Panama Jackson at VSB: It has not been a good week in or for America:
Last night, as I lay in my bed asleep, my son woke me up by kicking me in the back. I looked at my phone and saw notification after notification from every news outlet about shootings in Dallas and the fact that police officers were killed. My heart dropped because I knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the media would shift the entire conversation back to this mythical open season on police, who are experiencing the safest year on record for police ever. And sure enough, the non-sense sparked with news headlines that are linking what happened in Dallas to September 11th; marking it as the deadliest day for law enforcement since 9/11. And that correlation is patently ridiculous.posted by palindromic at 7:56 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
(snip)
I’m pissed that the media is making comparisons to 9/11 because to conflate what those people in Dallas did to what the terrorists who stole planes and flew them into buildings did just doesn’t compute. It’s not the same thing. They’re all criminals. But somehow making 9/11 seem like an attack on law enforcement and then paralleling the two is irresponsible and dangerous. The news media outlets need to do better. There are a lot of hurting people, some are now the families of police officers, but many of us who aren’t have been hurting for centuries at the hands of those in power. I’m not happy police officers are dead, but there tend to be very few officers showing much in the way of sympathy for the death their fellow fraternity members have caused.
DPD has said several times this morning they will not militarize because of this.
Militarize further, they mean. The metroplex has its own swat teams, and surrounding/interconnected towns in the region have been militarizing their police forces for the last few years.
posted by zarq at 7:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Militarize further, they mean. The metroplex has its own swat teams, and surrounding/interconnected towns in the region have been militarizing their police forces for the last few years.
posted by zarq at 7:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
A good read on the problem of the military mindset in policing: Law Enforcement’s “Warrior” Problem.
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
if they have remote detonation bomb robots, they certainly seem militarized enough...
posted by nadawi at 7:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
You guys realize that body armor and ballistic shields don't stop every kind of bullet, right? You realize that having tactical training and time to prep doesn't remove all the risk?
Dude already shot ten or eleven people and expressed the desire to shoot more. He clearly knew how to use his weapon(s). DPD tried to negotiate, and not just for like ten minutes or whatever.
Given what we know, I have no problem with how DPD resolved this. My only concern is for the way others might manipulate this as precedent for a less extreme situation. But no, I'm damn glad they found a way to resolve this without putting anyone else in his sights.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Dude already shot ten or eleven people and expressed the desire to shoot more. He clearly knew how to use his weapon(s). DPD tried to negotiate, and not just for like ten minutes or whatever.
Given what we know, I have no problem with how DPD resolved this. My only concern is for the way others might manipulate this as precedent for a less extreme situation. But no, I'm damn glad they found a way to resolve this without putting anyone else in his sights.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Jelani Cobb. Three Terrible Days of Violence The split-screen spectacle of those events—a mayor and police chief mired in grief in Dallas, a mother and girlfriend mourning in Minnesota—was like a riddle of causality. Both the public and the police face a feedback loop of risk and danger.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
if you're ever in a situation where you're talking to police
Your lawyer should be present. Otherwise, stop talking.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
Your lawyer should be present. Otherwise, stop talking.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
The wherewithal to use a bomb to kill the suspect is nothing new. Bomb robots have been around for years, used to approach and defuse/contain hazardous materials; and often the way suspicious packages or known explosives are handled is just to put more explosives next to them and blow them up. Using it on a suspect rather than attacking in person doesn't imply a previously unused military capacity.
posted by fatbird at 8:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 8:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just told my wife last week that if I'm ever arrested for anything at all, unless time is a factor (like she has been kidnapped and I need the police to stop considering me a suspect as quickly as possible), no matter how innocent I am I simply will not talk to the police without the advice of attorney.
"You only need a lawyer if you're guilty," Says a blue uniformed straw-man.
"So you're saying that you're 100% certain that there are no wrongly convicted people in prison? Not another word from me without a lawyer."
posted by VTX at 8:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
"You only need a lawyer if you're guilty," Says a blue uniformed straw-man.
"So you're saying that you're 100% certain that there are no wrongly convicted people in prison? Not another word from me without a lawyer."
posted by VTX at 8:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
if they have remote detonation bomb robots, they certainly seem militarized enough...
I think a bomb disposal robot may have explosives to perform a controlled detonation, not necessarily as a weapon. That's just speculation, I'm no expert.
posted by adept256 at 8:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think a bomb disposal robot may have explosives to perform a controlled detonation, not necessarily as a weapon. That's just speculation, I'm no expert.
posted by adept256 at 8:05 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
From Twitter:
Hayes Brown @HayesBrown
Orlando was just 26 days ago. It has been a long, long, long month.
posted by AFABulous at 8:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
Hayes Brown @HayesBrown
Orlando was just 26 days ago. It has been a long, long, long month.
posted by AFABulous at 8:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
it's a question of do the ends justify the means - like, i'm glad no more people were killed, i'm still skeptical of remote detonating bomb robots. if they had used a drone to kill someone who was actively shooting people i would still be saying this morning 'why do police departments have armed drones?'. you can question the methods, you can question how the police are disseminating information, you can note that they've already been wrong in this situation about suspects (and made no moves to rectify that), you can do all of this and still feel awful that cops were shot last night, still feel glad more death didn't happen, still not be on the side of the shooter.
posted by nadawi at 8:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
The combination of enn's link about white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement and MonkeyToes' link about the warrior mentality in policing is incredibly disturbing and explains a lot. "Remain humble and compassionate; be professional and courteous — and have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
posted by clawsoon at 8:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 8:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
And just to clarify, I was mostly talking about the general longterm everyday culture of police departments: "chains of command," military-esque ranks/titles, saluting, military-style uniforms, marching in parades, yata yata. Not only is that kind of culture completely useless for performing 99% of the community serving tasks and roles police departments exist to do, but it's all hat and no cattle.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
i mean, they used it specifically to kill someone last night - so whether it's intention is a weapon or not, they know how to use it as one...
posted by nadawi at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I remember these little cards that used to get handed around (maybe they were printed from a PDF from the ACLU?) about "what to do if you have to interact with the police" and while it was all reasonable advice I have to think that for a black person in the jurisdiction of a racist police department most of it would be a good way to get shot.
"Am I being detained?" -> "subject resisted arrest and had to be subdued" etc. …
posted by murphy slaw at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Am I being detained?" -> "subject resisted arrest and had to be subdued" etc. …
posted by murphy slaw at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
The closer of the Jelani Cobb article roomthreeseventeen posted is devastating:
This week has become a grotesque object lesson in gun culture, one that points to a conclusion that we could have and should have drawn long ago—that the surfeit of weapons at our disposal and the corresponding fears that they induce create new hazards. There is no telling how any of these specific horrors will be resolved. But here is what we do know: we live in an age of open-source terrorism. Our inability to respond to mass shootings has meant that, eventually, even law enforcement would fall victim to one. The context of the conversation about police accountability has been irrevocably changed. Black lives matter, but reports that those words were uttered by a gunman in Dallas mean that any movement under that banner may well have met its end. And realism, in the face of tragedy, tells us that there is more ugliness in the offing.posted by palindromic at 8:10 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Honest to god, I do not understand how a discussion sparked by the mass killing of a bunch leads people to feel like they need to remind us all again that we should not talk to police if we are under suspicion of something. You don't have to like police to realize that the Dallas police who got shot were just straight up victims.
posted by OmieWise at 8:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 8:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
actually this discussion was sparked by the summary execution of a black man, it's just that america is so fucked up the discussion has migrated to a second execution and then a mass shooting
posted by entropicamericana at 8:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [98 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [98 favorites]
it's a question of do the ends justify the means...
Truth is that we don't know yet, while use of the bomb and robot to kill the suspect is certainly troubling. There's definitely lots of questions that should be answered over this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 AM on July 8, 2016
Truth is that we don't know yet, while use of the bomb and robot to kill the suspect is certainly troubling. There's definitely lots of questions that should be answered over this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 AM on July 8, 2016
I think I can better understand resesrvations about how this attacker met his end through the lens of a worldview where law enforcement should never have to use deadly force.
From my point of view however, there is one time only where deadly force is justified and it is when there is the potential for additional loss of life. If - and really, I hate that we're speculating wildly about this, if the attacker had been stating that there were explosives in the area, perhaps DPD feared that he might detonate them or act as a suicide bomber. If that was their fear, then I personally feel they would be justified in using the method they did. Maybe others disagree.
I still think we need a lot more information, and I think we have to wait for more than half a day before getting the necessary context.
posted by the_querulous_night at 8:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
From my point of view however, there is one time only where deadly force is justified and it is when there is the potential for additional loss of life. If - and really, I hate that we're speculating wildly about this, if the attacker had been stating that there were explosives in the area, perhaps DPD feared that he might detonate them or act as a suicide bomber. If that was their fear, then I personally feel they would be justified in using the method they did. Maybe others disagree.
I still think we need a lot more information, and I think we have to wait for more than half a day before getting the necessary context.
posted by the_querulous_night at 8:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
> Honest to god, I do not understand how a discussion sparked by the mass killing of a bunch leads people to feel like they need to remind us all again that we should not talk to police if we are under suspicion of something.
Because of the quote above from the NOT ACTUALLY A SUSPECT guy they interrogated and lied to. That's why.
posted by rtha at 8:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [35 favorites]
Because of the quote above from the NOT ACTUALLY A SUSPECT guy they interrogated and lied to. That's why.
posted by rtha at 8:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [35 favorites]
Honest to god, I do not understand how a discussion sparked by the mass killing of a bunch leads people to feel like they need to remind us all again that we should not talk to police if we are under suspicion of something.
It might be a good time to scroll up and re-familiarize yourself with the original topic of this FPP, then. The Dallas discussion is happening here because it's obviously relevant to BLM and the recent police killings of black citizens, but it's not the only discussion that's been going on in this thread, and certainly not the only one that's allowed to occur here.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
It might be a good time to scroll up and re-familiarize yourself with the original topic of this FPP, then. The Dallas discussion is happening here because it's obviously relevant to BLM and the recent police killings of black citizens, but it's not the only discussion that's been going on in this thread, and certainly not the only one that's allowed to occur here.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
evidence that was fully available before the interrogation began. and he's still being listed as a suspect on the police's official social media page.
posted by nadawi at 8:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:15 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Charles Pierce: I dread what's coming. Truly, I do:
Yes, I believe that there should be far fewer high-powered firearms in the hands of the general American public, but I'm not going to get into stupid arguments over what is and what isn't an assault weapon. Yes, I believe there remains a serious crisis in American law enforcement with regard to the militarization in thought and in materiel of the people who are charged with keeping what we call the peace.posted by palindromic at 8:16 AM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
But, for today, anyway, I am going to make the unremarkable point that none of these people, not the two victims of police violence nor the five victims of Thursday night, need to be dead right now. Their deaths served no purpose. Enobling them in public grief doesn't make those deaths any less unnecessary. There is too much useless death in this country, too much pointless martyrdom. That is the lesson of this awful week. That is the only lesson worth listening to in the days ahead.
Honest to god, I do not understand how a discussion sparked by the mass killing of a bunch leads people to feel like they need to remind us all again that we should not talk to police if we are under suspicion of something. You don't have to like police to realize that the Dallas police who got shot were just straight up victims.
12 officers shot at Dallas protest against police shootings
...at a protest against police shootings.
Doesn't in any way justify what happened. But this didn't happen in a vacuum.
posted by zarq at 8:18 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
12 officers shot at Dallas protest against police shootings
...at a protest against police shootings.
Doesn't in any way justify what happened. But this didn't happen in a vacuum.
posted by zarq at 8:18 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm not falling for the "but we use drones elsewhere now you're whining about it when it's here" derail. What appears to have happened here is absolute lunacy.
Is this at me? If so, I'm pretty solidly on record as being opposed to robotic death machine policy regardless of the color of the passport of the people that are being killed by the robotic death machines.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is this at me? If so, I'm pretty solidly on record as being opposed to robotic death machine policy regardless of the color of the passport of the people that are being killed by the robotic death machines.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Per the Dallas Morning-News update, they have a name on the man who is dead. Other three suspects "uncooperative."
One of my Twitter people says he's a vet, I am asking for source on that.
posted by emjaybee at 8:21 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
One of my Twitter people says he's a vet, I am asking for source on that.
posted by emjaybee at 8:21 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Source on shooter being a vet is Alex Horton at Stars and Stripes, relevant tweet here.
posted by emjaybee at 8:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 8:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know what the thread started as, and I've followed the conversation as it has shifted.
I would guess that a good many of the people outraged that the police sought, picked up, interrogated, and released the wrong man during a chaotic crisis in which people were being shot and killed, would, in other circumstances, be able to understand that walking around with a fucking gun slung over your shoulder is a bad idea for all kinds of reasons not least because if you end up in the middle of a shooting situation you will be assumed to be part of that situation and might get shot and killed yourself. The latter is a standard understanding of anyone who supports gun control, as I know many of the usual usernames do.
I'm sorry Hughes was misidentified, but I don't think it was from racism, I think it was because he was wearing a camo shirt and CARRYING A GUN WHILE PEOPLE WERE GETTING SHOT. That there was video showing that he was not involved in some of the shooting does not exonerate him totally, nor should it. It was an active and developing crisis. (The continued distribution of his picture is another matter.)
I actually think the distinction is pretty freaking important to the general goal of getting fewer people of color executed by police.
posted by OmieWise at 8:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would guess that a good many of the people outraged that the police sought, picked up, interrogated, and released the wrong man during a chaotic crisis in which people were being shot and killed, would, in other circumstances, be able to understand that walking around with a fucking gun slung over your shoulder is a bad idea for all kinds of reasons not least because if you end up in the middle of a shooting situation you will be assumed to be part of that situation and might get shot and killed yourself. The latter is a standard understanding of anyone who supports gun control, as I know many of the usual usernames do.
I'm sorry Hughes was misidentified, but I don't think it was from racism, I think it was because he was wearing a camo shirt and CARRYING A GUN WHILE PEOPLE WERE GETTING SHOT. That there was video showing that he was not involved in some of the shooting does not exonerate him totally, nor should it. It was an active and developing crisis. (The continued distribution of his picture is another matter.)
I actually think the distinction is pretty freaking important to the general goal of getting fewer people of color executed by police.
posted by OmieWise at 8:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
FYI, the Dallas PD Twitter feed does note the person who's photo was circulated did turn himself, in a later tweet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not angry that they misidentified him. I'm angry that they haven't -very publicly- corrected the issue, when their misidentification is causing him and his family to be in active danger.
posted by Archelaus at 8:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 8:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
That there was video showing that he was not involved in some of the shooting does not exonerate him totally, nor should it.
What? Of course it exonerates him, you can see on the video that he wasn't shooting. Open carry is legal in Texas. He may not have made the best possible choices that day, but what does he need to be exonerated of? How would he have known there would be a shooting?
posted by AFABulous at 8:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [41 favorites]
What? Of course it exonerates him, you can see on the video that he wasn't shooting. Open carry is legal in Texas. He may not have made the best possible choices that day, but what does he need to be exonerated of? How would he have known there would be a shooting?
posted by AFABulous at 8:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [41 favorites]
i'll believe he wasn't profiled for being black with a gun just as soon as white open carry advocates are being rounded up. the reason the 'don't talk to the police' conversation came up is because of how the police lied to him during the interrogation. it's important to remember that even if you know you're innocent, even if you just want to be helpful because you're upset cops are being killed too, the cops are not there to help you and you need to keep your mouth shut.
posted by nadawi at 8:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [36 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [36 favorites]
He was not involved in ANY of the shooting, not "some."
posted by AFABulous at 8:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 8:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
I'm sorry Hughes was misidentified, but I don't think it was from racism, I think it was because he was wearing a camo shirt and CARRYING A GUN WHILE PEOPLE WERE GETTING SHOT.
Because it can't possibly be both, right?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
Because it can't possibly be both, right?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
"Am I being detained?"
I have been told to ask, instead: "Am I free to go?"
posted by thelonius at 8:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have been told to ask, instead: "Am I free to go?"
posted by thelonius at 8:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
is it correct that he didn't even have ammo anywhere on him? difficult to shoot with an empty gun.
posted by nadawi at 8:32 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by nadawi at 8:32 AM on July 8, 2016
If you need some relief, many folks on Twitter recommending the #CarefreeBlackKids2k16 hashtag.
posted by emjaybee at 8:33 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 8:33 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Police Lie.
Albany men cleared in killing, freed after 20 years
Murder convictions for two men tossed after another man confesses to 1997 killing
Albany men cleared in killing, freed after 20 years
Murder convictions for two men tossed after another man confesses to 1997 killing
posted by mikelieman at 8:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Rossi highlighted additional statements by Dukes and Jones' co-defendant, Pierre Lyons, who recanted prior statements to police implicating the men.
...
"This conviction was based on extremely weak evidence of guilt," Freedman said. "It was only the confession from Lavell, which was false. It was obtained after 36 or so hours of police questioning after he maintained his innocence for most of that time and it was definitely under duress. So we believe that it goes to show how dangerous false confessions are."
Guy who died was black with black power image posted on his Facebook.
Jesus Christ this is not going to be good.
posted by Talez at 8:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jesus Christ this is not going to be good.
posted by Talez at 8:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry Hughes was misidentified, but I don't think it was from racism, I think it was because he was wearing a camo shirt and CARRYING A GUN WHILE PEOPLE WERE GETTING SHOT.
i guess this explains why the cops lied to him about having eyewitnesses to him shooting at people
posted by beerperson at 8:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
i guess this explains why the cops lied to him about having eyewitnesses to him shooting at people
posted by beerperson at 8:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
I'm sorry Hughes was misidentified, but I don't think it was from racism, I think it was because he was wearing a camo shirt and CARRYING A GUN WHILE PEOPLE WERE GETTING SHOT.
I was going to post a link to a piece about white men actually pointing guns at police and not getting shot, until I realized that I'd actually already posted it in this thread and not in one of the other threads about gun violence and racism.
It's been a long couple of days.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
I was going to post a link to a piece about white men actually pointing guns at police and not getting shot, until I realized that I'd actually already posted it in this thread and not in one of the other threads about gun violence and racism.
It's been a long couple of days.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
Guy who died was black with black power image posted on his Facebook.
he was also ex-army i wonder which photo we will be seeing more of
posted by entropicamericana at 8:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
he was also ex-army i wonder which photo we will be seeing more of
posted by entropicamericana at 8:35 AM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Panama Jackson at VSB: Dallas PD owes Mark Hughes a very public apology:
Unfortunately, the Dallas PD has yet to issue a public apology for wrongly identifying him as a suspect. In short, they could have gotten him killed. This law abiding citizen, participating in a demonstration with already heightened tension, has a very visible gun after police officers are shot and is targeted as being a person who may have done it. We can argue about the logic of bringing a gun to this situation until the cows come home, but again, LEGAL. Shit, he should feel glad that the police officers he found and turned his gun into clearly hadn’t been made aware that he was being identified as a suspect or that could have ended terribly.posted by palindromic at 8:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
The fact that Dallas PD tweeted out (and media obviously picked up on it) and broadcast his face as a possible face of the situation is one of the more irresponsible acts I’ve seen in a good long while. On the one hand, I can almost understand: the situation has reached a fever pitch, police officers are dead, others are wounded, and you want to find the person as quickly as possible. But what about due dilligence? What about some form of evidence OTHER THAN this law abiding citizen has a firearm? If he is legally allowed to carry it, then how is he automatically a suspect unless “Black Man With a Gun” is the crime. We already know that answer.
Micah X. Johnson: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know (sourced)
Number 1 fact: The Suspect Told Police He Was Not Affiliated With Any Groups & He ‘Did This Alone’
posted by maxsparber at 8:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Number 1 fact: The Suspect Told Police He Was Not Affiliated With Any Groups & He ‘Did This Alone’
posted by maxsparber at 8:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
God dammit I should NOT be feeling like this entire week should have "Gimme Shelter" as a soundtrack.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:38 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
Five good guys with guns are dead. Six others shot.
One good guy with a gun was immediately identified as a suspect.
It took a robotic bomb to get the bad guy.
The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
Repeat ad infinitum.
posted by waitingtoderail at 8:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
Five good guys with guns are dead. Six others shot.
One good guy with a gun was immediately identified as a suspect.
It took a robotic bomb to get the bad guy.
The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
Repeat ad infinitum.
posted by waitingtoderail at 8:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
KXAS-TV (NBC5) says the Dallas PD has confirmed that the shooter they killed via bomb was named Micah Johnson
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
micah xavier johnson. the immediate shortening to micah x. is going to get a lot of play.
posted by nadawi at 8:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
What? Of course it exonerates him, you can see on the video that he wasn't shooting.
He was not involved in ANY of the shooting, not "some."
No it doesn't, it does not exonerate him at the time. The situation is over now. It's done, as far as we know. Pictures of Hughes not shooting when there were shots does indeed exonerate him now. It did not then because it was a developing situation and no one knew what was going to happen in 15 minutes or an hour. I'll tell you what, if I was somewhere people were shooting I'd get the fuck away from ANYONE with a gun. I wouldn't assume ANYONE with a gun was a safe person if there was shooting going on.
I'll drop this now.
posted by OmieWise at 8:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
He was not involved in ANY of the shooting, not "some."
No it doesn't, it does not exonerate him at the time. The situation is over now. It's done, as far as we know. Pictures of Hughes not shooting when there were shots does indeed exonerate him now. It did not then because it was a developing situation and no one knew what was going to happen in 15 minutes or an hour. I'll tell you what, if I was somewhere people were shooting I'd get the fuck away from ANYONE with a gun. I wouldn't assume ANYONE with a gun was a safe person if there was shooting going on.
I'll drop this now.
posted by OmieWise at 8:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Better to just assume anyone with a gun is not a safe person, period.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:42 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 8:42 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
Panama Jackson at VSB: Dallas PD owes Mark Hughes a very public apology:
Hughes is alive and unharmed while Dallas PD is a little busy at the moment.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hughes is alive and unharmed while Dallas PD is a little busy at the moment.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
he was talking to the police, handing over his weapon, and receiving a business card from them when the tweet went up calling him a suspect. texas is an open carry state. as always, open carry seems to be one of those rights white people are afforded while black people are killed, arrested, or detained for the same.
posted by nadawi at 8:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [40 favorites]
Hughes is alive and unharmed while Dallas PD is a little busy at the moment.
Nobody said they need to issue the apology now. But today would be good.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Nobody said they need to issue the apology now. But today would be good.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
he was also ex-army i wonder which photo we will be seeing more of
If he was a vet, maybe this horror could at least spark a discussion of how we treat our vets for mental health issues and PTSD. But it is a really politically dangerous situation, and I hope it's not successfully exploited for scoring points for Trump's racist agenda. Goddamn this year!
posted by saulgoodman at 8:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
If he was a vet, maybe this horror could at least spark a discussion of how we treat our vets for mental health issues and PTSD. But it is a really politically dangerous situation, and I hope it's not successfully exploited for scoring points for Trump's racist agenda. Goddamn this year!
posted by saulgoodman at 8:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'll tell you what, if I was somewhere people were shooting I'd get the fuck away from ANYONE with a gun. I wouldn't assume ANYONE with a gun was a safe person if there was shooting going on.
I completely agree, which is why open carry is a travesty.
posted by maxsparber at 8:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
I completely agree, which is why open carry is a travesty.
posted by maxsparber at 8:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
the police have time to give press conferences making sure we all know the shooter hated white cops, seems like they could just tack on 'mark hughes was erroneously suspected, cooperated fully, and is not a person of interest. we thank him for his help and regret that he and his brother have been fielding death threats. we have also removed the post'.
posted by nadawi at 8:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [48 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [48 favorites]
The shooter being a black vet basically is the worst case scenario. I know so so many guys like him, who while are great caring people are also severely traumatized by the combination of war and racism. It sounds like he snapped in the worst possible way. This sucks on every level. I am so angry that he would derail a peaceful movement with this bullshit and yet I can't help but pity him. Damn it. This is going to be a hard summer.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm frankly surprised he showed up in photos.
posted by maxsparber at 8:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 8:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, it's Hillary and Obama's fault according to Trump's VA chairman and candidate for governor. He deleted the tweet, but the internet never forgets.
posted by lalochezia at 8:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lalochezia at 8:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think they can spare the five seconds it would take to scroll back to the Twitter post that is still claiming Hughes is a suspect in a mass shooting, and hit "delete."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Someone put up a petition on whitehouse.gov asking for the federal government to classify Black Lives Matter as a terrorist organization.
posted by Talez at 8:52 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Talez at 8:52 AM on July 8, 2016
First Officer Killed in Dallas Police Ambush Identified as Brent Thompson:
According to James Spiller, chief of the Dallas Area Rapid Transit, 43-year-old Brent Thompson was identified as one of the five police officers killed in the ambush. Thompson had gotten married to a fellow officer in the last two weeks, and was the first officer from the transit police ever killed in the line of duty.posted by palindromic at 8:52 AM on July 8, 2016
The guy who walked up to the police and gave them his gun was a brave man, and kudos to him. That could have gone very wrong.
posted by clawsoon at 8:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 8:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Oh, I think BLM --> terrorist movement is totally where the right is going to go with this and the media will Present Both Sides of course.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
Police Lie.
And the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Frazier v. Cupp that police trickery and deception are permitted in an interrogation. Police lie and it is standard, legal procedure. Always expect police to lie to you.
posted by JackFlash at 8:58 AM on July 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
And the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Frazier v. Cupp that police trickery and deception are permitted in an interrogation. Police lie and it is standard, legal procedure. Always expect police to lie to you.
posted by JackFlash at 8:58 AM on July 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
Hughes is alive and unharmed while Dallas PD is a little busy at the moment.
They are significantly less busy than when they posted it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
They are significantly less busy than when they posted it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'll tell you what, if I was somewhere people were shooting I'd get the fuck away from ANYONE with a gun. I wouldn't assume ANYONE with a gun was a safe person if there was shooting going on.
I completely agree, which is why open carry is a travesty.
And concealed carry is even more of a travesty. At least with open carry you have the choice to avoid the person with the gun.
posted by JackFlash at 9:03 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I completely agree, which is why open carry is a travesty.
And concealed carry is even more of a travesty. At least with open carry you have the choice to avoid the person with the gun.
posted by JackFlash at 9:03 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
When white people open carry guns, though, it is typically to intimidate, police and dominate black and brown bodies. But then again at least you know what weapon the person has.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:10 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:10 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Blatcher: Hughes is alive and unharmed while Dallas PD is a little busy at the moment.
ChurchHatesTucker: They are significantly less busy than when they posted it.
There are at least two Public Information Officers who work for the department. Their role is to speak with the public and the media and represent it on social media. No one else should have access to the department's twitter account but them.
They're likely not less busy. They're probably fielding a ton of requests in person and by phone and email from reporters and the public, preparing written statements and assessing new information as it comes in (about those wounded or killed, about the suspect(s), etc.) This story is still unfolding, and they will be needed to prepare spokespeople for interviews, make sure what's released is accurate and properly worded., etc.
That said... did I see upthread that Hughes is receiving death threats? They do need to be on top of that and work his innocence into their statements. Especially since stories about him are now being posted.
posted by zarq at 9:11 AM on July 8, 2016
ChurchHatesTucker: They are significantly less busy than when they posted it.
There are at least two Public Information Officers who work for the department. Their role is to speak with the public and the media and represent it on social media. No one else should have access to the department's twitter account but them.
They're likely not less busy. They're probably fielding a ton of requests in person and by phone and email from reporters and the public, preparing written statements and assessing new information as it comes in (about those wounded or killed, about the suspect(s), etc.) This story is still unfolding, and they will be needed to prepare spokespeople for interviews, make sure what's released is accurate and properly worded., etc.
That said... did I see upthread that Hughes is receiving death threats? They do need to be on top of that and work his innocence into their statements. Especially since stories about him are now being posted.
posted by zarq at 9:11 AM on July 8, 2016
You know something, I don't really care how busy there are. Placing a picture of a black man on social media and calling him a suspect put that man at risk, and they need to take the image down now.
posted by maxsparber at 9:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 9:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [49 favorites]
If they can add tweets they can delete a tweet. Maybe they're not listening to people, but that'd be pretty inept of them as you'd think they'd want to cull through any information they could get. So I bet they're getting the information, they're posting new tweets, the people who are doing both just seem to not be prioritizing it, which is [criminally] negligent IMV.
posted by avalonian at 9:16 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by avalonian at 9:16 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Leaving Hughes' photo up at this point is inciting violence.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 9:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
Okay, if BLM is going to get attacked over this tragic action by someone was not part of their organization, it seems like the rest of us, especially white people, could do things to show support for BLM.
It seems like this would be a time to buy or make a button or a sign (if you look on Etsy or the internet, there are black-owned projects that produce these; I myself would rather buy such a thing from a black maker) so that you can be visible. It can't be that BLM gets turned into something that Respectable People Cannot Mention. (I mean, it is that a bit already, but it must not get to be Respectable People Cannot Mention This Because They Are Terrorists.)
Black Lives Matter is one of the best social movements of the US during my lifetime and it is one of very few that really gives me hope.
posted by Frowner at 9:18 AM on July 8, 2016 [43 favorites]
It seems like this would be a time to buy or make a button or a sign (if you look on Etsy or the internet, there are black-owned projects that produce these; I myself would rather buy such a thing from a black maker) so that you can be visible. It can't be that BLM gets turned into something that Respectable People Cannot Mention. (I mean, it is that a bit already, but it must not get to be Respectable People Cannot Mention This Because They Are Terrorists.)
Black Lives Matter is one of the best social movements of the US during my lifetime and it is one of very few that really gives me hope.
posted by Frowner at 9:18 AM on July 8, 2016 [43 favorites]
When white people open carry guns, though, it is typically to intimidate, police and dominate black and brown bodies. But then again at least you know what weapon the person has.
what is with this use of 'bodies'? i get that it's Woke but it never seems to have any coherent use over 'people'
posted by p3on at 9:18 AM on July 8, 2016
what is with this use of 'bodies'? i get that it's Woke but it never seems to have any coherent use over 'people'
posted by p3on at 9:18 AM on July 8, 2016
Like all acts of terror or mass violence, the tragedy is the loss of life and the long term consequences of it. Everything else is secondary for the immediate time being.
Active disinformation that claims an innocent man is in fact one of the terrorists is one of those consequences.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:18 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Active disinformation that claims an innocent man is in fact one of the terrorists is one of those consequences.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:18 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
That said... did I see upthread that Hughes is receiving death threats? They do need to be on top of that and work his innocence into their statements. Especially since stories about him are now being posted.
Yeah, their attorney says they've "received thousands of death threats already" .
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:20 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, their attorney says they've "received thousands of death threats already" .
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:20 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
i get that it's Woke but it never seems to have any coherent use over 'people'
what's with this use of "Woke"? Is that a person's name?
posted by thelonius at 9:21 AM on July 8, 2016
what's with this use of "Woke"? Is that a person's name?
posted by thelonius at 9:21 AM on July 8, 2016
what is with this use of 'bodies'? i get that it's Woke but it never seems to have any coherent use over 'people'
Not sure if it originated here, but Ta-Nehisi Coates uses this frequently in Between the World and Me to emphasize the separation between the human being who is being targeted, and their body, which is all that police and others perceive. The emphasis is further on the destruction of said bodies—their being casually discarded or mangled without any respect for either their beauty or the person who possesses it.
posted by rorgy at 9:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [36 favorites]
Not sure if it originated here, but Ta-Nehisi Coates uses this frequently in Between the World and Me to emphasize the separation between the human being who is being targeted, and their body, which is all that police and others perceive. The emphasis is further on the destruction of said bodies—their being casually discarded or mangled without any respect for either their beauty or the person who possesses it.
posted by rorgy at 9:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [36 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments removed. Cut it the fuck out with the "it's fucked/disgusting that you aren't commenting about what I think you should be" thing.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
The guy who walked up to the police and gave them his gun was a brave man, and kudos to him. That could have gone very wrong.Imagine:
You're an armed black man at a protest sparked by one incident after another of police officers apparently murdering black men for being armed, and you're now suddenly a suspect in the ongoing mass shooting of other police officers. The right thing to do is indeed "Turn yourself in right away, with the gun in your own safe keeping, and hope the police officers who just saw their friends murdered are less jumpy than the ones who were investigating CD sales or a broken tail light"... but at least to me "run and hide until shit cools down" might have been more tempting.
I think "brave" is a massive understatement.
posted by roystgnr at 9:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [45 favorites]
They're likely not less busy.
Eleven hours ago they managed to tweet Hughes had turned himself in. I think they could have found a second to delete the photo in the meantime.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Eleven hours ago they managed to tweet Hughes had turned himself in. I think they could have found a second to delete the photo in the meantime.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Justice Department Launches Federal Hate Crime Investigation of Dallas Shooting
posted by clawsoon at 9:28 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by clawsoon at 9:28 AM on July 8, 2016
Targeting the officers protecting a BLM march is tantamount to targeting the march itself. This was effectively an attack on the movement, no matter what Micah Johnson might have said about his intentions before getting executed via Battlebot.
posted by theodolite at 9:28 AM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 9:28 AM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Isaac Chotiner at Slate: Racist Responses to Tragedies Like Dallas Do More than Stoke Hatred. They Rob Us of Our Ability to Grieve:
The horrific attack Thursday night in Dallas, in which snipers murdered five police officers and wounded seven more, is the sort of American tragedy that has become all too common in our current Age of Arms. But if your first impulse was to grieve for these police officers, the response to their deaths made it much more difficult to do so. Thursday night’s shooting was followed, almost immediately, by heaps of racist online commentary, and then by blatantly bigoted and inflammatory news coverage. The killings thus served as a reminder of yet another way that our current political moment makes us a little less human: Whether the tragedy is in Orlando or Dallas, the overwhelmingly bigoted response to it from such a large chunk of our country has made it impossible to properly grieve anymore.posted by palindromic at 9:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Brandon Blatcher: Yeah, their attorney says they've "received thousands of death threats already" .
That's horrifying.
posted by zarq at 9:33 AM on July 8, 2016
That's horrifying.
posted by zarq at 9:33 AM on July 8, 2016
I can't decide what upsets me more -- the way hateful racists embrace this type of attack as a reason to be racist, or the way this kind of attack smears the whole BLM movement with unjustified associations with criminality and violence.
At bottom this is an utter tragedy. Shooting officers who are providing protection for peaceful civic protest endangers us all.
posted by bearwife at 9:33 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
At bottom this is an utter tragedy. Shooting officers who are providing protection for peaceful civic protest endangers us all.
posted by bearwife at 9:33 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
My Walden – Melissa Harris-Perry: Here it is quiet and baby boys walk to stores in the rain safely with hoodies up. And play in the park with toy guns and still go home for dinner. And grandma drives home from work without having to give an office blowjob and no one thinks sex with an unconscious girl constitutes “action.”
This is the suicide note. I have been writing it for a long time. We have been writing it for a long time. We, the black people. We despised folks whose stolen bodies built this nation without pay or acknowledgement or gratitude. This is our suicide note.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
This is the suicide note. I have been writing it for a long time. We have been writing it for a long time. We, the black people. We despised folks whose stolen bodies built this nation without pay or acknowledgement or gratitude. This is our suicide note.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
Piling on to roystgnr's comment Mark Hughes was one of the helpers from the very beginning. He should be touted as a hero, and he'll be who I point to when I see others paint BLM, or the protesters in general, with a similar brush as the attackers. I bet he was terrified handing over his gun, terrified of being taken in (and his fears were not abated) and yet he still did the thing. The scary, under duress, brave thing.
posted by avalonian at 9:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by avalonian at 9:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
I thought Loretta Lynch's statement (text version) was good. She obviously started with Dallas, but named and discussed Alton Sterling and Philando Castile too and discussed this as "the events of this week," not only "the events of last night."
And DOJ has opened a civil rights investigation in Louisiana.
posted by zachlipton at 9:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
And DOJ has opened a civil rights investigation in Louisiana.
posted by zachlipton at 9:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
Justice Department Launches Federal Hate Crime Investigation of Dallas Shooting
There's nothing in Lynch's statement saying that.
On preview, I note others have linked to her statement, which says the DOJ is either actively investigating or assisting in the investigations in Baton Rouge, Minneapolis, and Dallas. There's nothing indicating that they're investigating anything in any of the three investigations as a hate crime.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's nothing in Lynch's statement saying that.
On preview, I note others have linked to her statement, which says the DOJ is either actively investigating or assisting in the investigations in Baton Rouge, Minneapolis, and Dallas. There's nothing indicating that they're investigating anything in any of the three investigations as a hate crime.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Couple more comments removed. Bringing in "here's some awful shit I found in yonder Toilet of Awfulness mostly just makes this thread grosser by association, please drop that. And sotonohito, you need to cool it in general some; please give the thread a break at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:39 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Statements from Mark Hughes re: being a person of interest.
posted by emjaybee at 9:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lynch's statement was excellent.
posted by zarq at 9:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
We have opened a civil rights investigation in Louisiana and we are providing assistance to local authorities in Minnesota who are leading the investigation there. Today, we are feeling the devastating loss of Dallas Area Rapid Transit Officer Brent Thompson and four other fallen officers whose names remain unreleased as we await notification of all the families. After the events of this week, Americans across the county are feeling a sense of helplessness, of uncertainty and of fear. These feelings are understandable and they are justified. But the answer must not be violence. The answer is never violence.
Rather, the answer must be action: calm, peaceful, collaborative and determined action. We must continue working to build trust between communities and law enforcement. We must continue working to guarantee every person in this country equal justice under the law. We must take a hard look at the ease with which wrongdoers can get their hands on deadly weapons and the frequency with which they use them. We must reflect on the kind of country we want to build and the kind of society we want to pass on to our children. We must reject the easy impulses of bitterness and rancor and embrace the difficult work of finding a path forward together.
Above all, we must remind ourselves that we are all Americans – and that, as Americans, we share not just a common land, but a common life. Those we have lost this week have come from different neighborhoods and backgrounds – but today, they are mourned by officers and residents, by family and friends – by men and women and children who loved them, who needed them and who will miss them always. They are mourned by all of us.
To the families of all who lost their lives in this series of tragedies, we share your pain and your loss. To our brothers and sisters who wear the badge: I want you to know that I am deeply grateful for the difficult and dangerous work you do every day to keep our streets safe and our nations secure. I am heartbroken at this loss. And the Department of Justice will do all we can to support you in the days ahead. To those who seek to improve our country through peaceful protest and protected speech: I want you to know that your voice is important. Do not be discouraged by those who use your lawful actions as cover for their heinous violence. We will continue to safeguard your constitutional rights and to work with you in the difficult mission of building a better nation and a brighter future. And to all Americans: I ask you not to allow the events of this week to precipitate a ‘new normal’ in our country. I ask you to turn to each other, not against each other as we move forward.
And I urge you to remember, today and every day, that we are one nation. We are one people. And we stand together. May God bless the families and loved ones of all who were taken from us this week. And may God bless the United States of America.
posted by zarq at 9:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
Here, specifically, is Lynch discussing the investigations:
posted by zombieflanders at 9:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Department of Justice – including the FBI, ATF, U.S. Marshals Service and U.S. Attorney’s Office – is working closely with our state and local counterparts, and we intend to provide any assistance we can to investigate this attack, and to heal a community that has been severely shaken and deeply scarred by an unfathomable tragedy. This is an unfolding situation and we will provide additional information when it is available and appropriate.and here she calls for non-violence:
This has been a week of profound grief and heartbreaking loss. The peaceful protest that was planned in Dallas last night was organized in response to the tragic deaths of Alton Sterling in Louisiana and Philando Castile in Minnesota. We have opened a civil rights investigation in Louisiana and we are providing assistance to local authorities in Minnesota who are leading the investigation there.
After the events of this week, Americans across the county are feeling a sense of helplessness, of uncertainty and of fear. These feelings are understandable and they are justified. But the answer must not be violence. The answer is never violence.I think she said what she did as well as someone in her position can officially say.
Rather, the answer must be action: calm, peaceful, collaborative and determined action.
[...]
To those who seek to improve our country through peaceful protest and protected speech: I want you to know that your voice is important. Do not be discouraged by those who use your lawful actions as cover for their heinous violence. We will continue to safeguard your constitutional rights and to work with you in the difficult mission of building a better nation and a brighter future. And to all Americans: I ask you not to allow the events of this week to precipitate a “new normal” in our country. I ask you to turn to each other, not against each other as we move forward.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I watched a video online that I can't find now from a live feed last night in which a protester described Hughes to a news camera and told them that he witnessed Hughes pointing his gun at police. The discussion was confusing but the reporter repeatedly described his statement as the protester having witnessed 'the man with the gun' with Hughes' description actually shoot police officers. The police did not lie about witness statements about Hughes. Clearly the witness was full of it, but it would have been pretty stupid of police to not detain Hughes on the basis of that statement. That doesn't excuse them from leaving his picture up once they had him in custody for questioning though.
posted by Dojie at 9:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Dojie at 9:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The suspect was killed with a Dallas police bomb robot, which was sent in after negotiations broke down
On top of everything else, we now have the phrase "police bomb robot" to haunt our dreams.
posted by msalt at 9:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
On top of everything else, we now have the phrase "police bomb robot" to haunt our dreams.
posted by msalt at 9:46 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thank God that we at least have competent and compassionate leaders at the top of the Executive branch.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Somebody on Twitter just pointed out that there were 100 police officers at the protest, and that seemingly one guy with a rifle managed to shoot 11 of them.
I don't know how anybody can argue that guns make us safer, and the more people who have guns, the safer we will be. One rifle literally decimated an armed police force.
posted by maxsparber at 9:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [65 favorites]
I don't know how anybody can argue that guns make us safer, and the more people who have guns, the safer we will be. One rifle literally decimated an armed police force.
posted by maxsparber at 9:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [65 favorites]
Thank God that we at least have competent and compassionate leaders at the top of the Executive branch.
For now. Vote this November.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
For now. Vote this November.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
“We tried to negotiate for several hours, negotiations broke down, we had an exchange of gunfire with the suspect,” Brown said. “We saw no other option but to use our bomb-robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was. Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger. The suspect is dead a result of detonating the bomb.”
Two questions come to mind. First, is this the first time a bomb robot has been used to kill an American citizen by the police? Second, could they have used something a little less lethal, like tear gas?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
Two questions come to mind. First, is this the first time a bomb robot has been used to kill an American citizen by the police? Second, could they have used something a little less lethal, like tear gas?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:52 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
from "summer, somewhere" by Danez Smith:
"history is what it is. it knows what it did.
bad dog. bad blood. bad day to be a boy
color of a July well spent. but here, not earth
not heaven, boys can’t recall their white shirt
turned a ruby gown. here, there is no language
for officer or law, no color to call white.
if snow fell, it’d fall black. please, don’t call
us dead, call us alive someplace better.
we say our own names when we pray.
we go out for sweets & come back."
posted by dysh at 9:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [28 favorites]
"history is what it is. it knows what it did.
bad dog. bad blood. bad day to be a boy
color of a July well spent. but here, not earth
not heaven, boys can’t recall their white shirt
turned a ruby gown. here, there is no language
for officer or law, no color to call white.
if snow fell, it’d fall black. please, don’t call
us dead, call us alive someplace better.
we say our own names when we pray.
we go out for sweets & come back."
posted by dysh at 9:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [28 favorites]
The bomb robot sounds like something they've been waiting to try out.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:56 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:56 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Patrick says protestors heard shots and turned away expecting police officers to protect them – "How hypocritical."The Lieutenant Governor of Texas, everybody!
posted by zombieflanders at 9:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
what is with this use of 'bodies'? i get that it's Woke but it never seems to have any coherent use over 'people'
I'm sure that I'm part it is a shibboleth or, more charitably, a vocabulary word that gets picked up somewhat unconsciously after X amount of reading TNC and black Twitter and queer culture etc.
For me "bodies" gets at the visceral nature of what is done to us. It's not just "Oh you have to pay a higher mortgage rate" or even "Your family structure has been ravaged by centuries of families being torn apart in the name of Mammon and white supremacy".
It is this: you are looked at. Seen and judged, your very body. If you are wearing the wrong clothes. If you are walking down the street at the wrong time. If you don't control the movement of your hands just right when you are pulled over for speeding.
Your body might be destroyed.
That is why we say bodies.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [37 favorites]
I'm sure that I'm part it is a shibboleth or, more charitably, a vocabulary word that gets picked up somewhat unconsciously after X amount of reading TNC and black Twitter and queer culture etc.
For me "bodies" gets at the visceral nature of what is done to us. It's not just "Oh you have to pay a higher mortgage rate" or even "Your family structure has been ravaged by centuries of families being torn apart in the name of Mammon and white supremacy".
It is this: you are looked at. Seen and judged, your very body. If you are wearing the wrong clothes. If you are walking down the street at the wrong time. If you don't control the movement of your hands just right when you are pulled over for speeding.
Your body might be destroyed.
That is why we say bodies.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:57 AM on July 8, 2016 [37 favorites]
Two questions come to mind. First, is this the first time a bomb robot has been used to kill an American citizen by the police?
Yes.
Second, could they have used something a little less lethal, like tear gas?
Yes. Bomb robots have been used to attack suspects with non-lethal means before.
posted by zarq at 9:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes.
Second, could they have used something a little less lethal, like tear gas?
Yes. Bomb robots have been used to attack suspects with non-lethal means before.
Reports of armed robots being employed by law enforcement date back even further, however – a Wired report from 2007 details in-depth how robots originally designed for military use were being actively marketed and sold to domestic police forces int he U.S., including models that could be equipped with the following:
• Multi-shot TASER electronic control device with laser-dot aiming.
• Loudspeaker and audio receiver for negotiations.
• Night vision and thermal cameras.
• Choice of weapons for lethal or less-than-lethal responses
– 40 mm grenade launcher – 2 rounds
– 12-gage shotgun – 5 rounds
– FN303 less-lethal launcher – 15 rounds.
Those robots were not actually armed by the police departments which owned them, at the time of publication of that story, and those are different in purpose and construction from the robot likely used by the Dallas PD, which is likely a Marcbot-IV EOD (more [evidence] to support this here), designed specifically for bomb defusion rather than offensive action. Similar robots have been used in an improvised manner similar to how Dallas police employed theirs in this situation in a few instances on the battlefield in combat situations.
posted by zarq at 9:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, this does appear to be the first use of a "bomb robot" by US police but it's a tactic used before by the military in Iraq.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
White right wing counterprotester at the BLM event in Portland pulls out his gun, threatens protesters. No police shot him.
posted by sotonohito at 10:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 10:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
Patrick says protestors heard shots and turned away expecting police officers to protect them – "How hypocritical."
It is very literally the goal of BLM to have a police force that protects them, instead of kills them.
posted by maxsparber at 10:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [114 favorites]
It is very literally the goal of BLM to have a police force that protects them, instead of kills them.
posted by maxsparber at 10:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [114 favorites]
Until we know what sort of explosive device was used it probably isn't useful to conjecture whether appropriate force was used.
Explosive devices include non lethal options all the way up to high explosive devices. Considering the location it seems like flash bangs are the appropriate type of response but even those have a non zero chance of killing someone.
posted by vuron at 10:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Explosive devices include non lethal options all the way up to high explosive devices. Considering the location it seems like flash bangs are the appropriate type of response but even those have a non zero chance of killing someone.
posted by vuron at 10:01 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, this does appear to be the first use of a "bomb robot by US police" but it's a tactic used before by the military in Iraq.
This combined with Micah Johnson's military service shows just how devastating our endless, pointless, morally indefensible wars are, not just for the people we destroy in other countries but for ourselves. The war always comes home.
posted by dis_integration at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
This combined with Micah Johnson's military service shows just how devastating our endless, pointless, morally indefensible wars are, not just for the people we destroy in other countries but for ourselves. The war always comes home.
posted by dis_integration at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
Second, could they have used something a little less lethal, like tear gas?
Yeah, this is a very good question and again leads to the follow up why do police sometimes seem over eager to use deadly force? Shouldn't they be considering and exhausting all nonlethal options first, if empowered to use lethal force at all, if their charge is to protect and serve all members of their communities?
posted by saulgoodman at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this is a very good question and again leads to the follow up why do police sometimes seem over eager to use deadly force? Shouldn't they be considering and exhausting all nonlethal options first, if empowered to use lethal force at all, if their charge is to protect and serve all members of their communities?
posted by saulgoodman at 10:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Patrick says protestors heard shots and turned away expecting police officers to protect them – "How hypocritical."
The Lieutenant Governor of Texas, everybody!
And FYI for non-Texans: the office of Lieutenant Governor of Texas is actually more powerful than that of Governor, so this isn't just some loose talk from a functionary. This comes straight from the top.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Lieutenant Governor of Texas, everybody!
And FYI for non-Texans: the office of Lieutenant Governor of Texas is actually more powerful than that of Governor, so this isn't just some loose talk from a functionary. This comes straight from the top.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:04 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Slate: What We Know About the Bomb Robot Dallas Police Used to Kill Alleged Shooter
posted by palindromic at 10:04 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by palindromic at 10:04 AM on July 8, 2016
designed specifically for bomb defusion rather than offensive action. Similar robots have been used in an improvised manner similar to how Dallas police employed theirs in this situation in a few instances on the battlefield in combat situations.
IED
posted by adept256 at 10:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
IED
posted by adept256 at 10:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tear gas isn't lethal and it's possible for the suspect to still fight back. That was not DPD's goal at that. The goal was to kill him, neutralizing any threat to their officers.
It ain't pretty and there's questions galore, but that's what the goal was.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It ain't pretty and there's questions galore, but that's what the goal was.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Crucially the robot did not make any decisions itself and would not be capable of doing so."
Come on Slate.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:07 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Come on Slate.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:07 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
It is, you are looked at. Seen and judged, your very body. If you are wearing the wrong clothes. If you are walking down the street at the right time. If you don't control the movement of your hands just right when you are pulled over for speeding.
That's a wonderful description. I think "bodies" goes back even earlier than that. Slavery was the physical exploitation of black bodies. Slaves were, in the aggregate, bodies capable of doing work and receiving abuse (of all forms), not people with lives who mattered. That legacy still isn't wiped out.
It also invokes the very literal bodies that are so often left alone to die on the ground after police shootings
posted by zachlipton at 10:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
That's a wonderful description. I think "bodies" goes back even earlier than that. Slavery was the physical exploitation of black bodies. Slaves were, in the aggregate, bodies capable of doing work and receiving abuse (of all forms), not people with lives who mattered. That legacy still isn't wiped out.
It also invokes the very literal bodies that are so often left alone to die on the ground after police shootings
posted by zachlipton at 10:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I don't see any ambiguity. The police statements have not said anything about attempting to extricate him using explosives. They've mad it pretty clear that they sent a robot in with a bomb to end his life.
posted by maxsparber at 10:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Philando Castile’s mom stunned when CNN’s Cuomo asks about Dallas: ‘My son died just the other day’
Cuomo started the interview Friday morning on “New Day” by asking Castile about her reaction to the fatal shootings of five police officers and the wounding of six others in Dallas, and she reacted in bewilderment.posted by palindromic at 10:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [58 favorites]
“Me? I don’t know anything about what happened in Dallas,” Castile said. “I’m sure that what we have here planned in the state of Minnesota is not of that caliber. We’re having a peaceful protest, and I don’t know anything about what happened in Dallas. My son died just the other day, and I haven’t had sleep in almost 48 hours. So no, I haven’t been watching any television, so I can’t answer that.”
uh
when I watched the press conference half-awake this morning I thought the robot detonated a bomb near or on the person of the shooter, that it was one of the devices he said he'd planted
I am just now fully understanding that the police supplied the explosive for the robot to carry and detonate with the intent to kill him
justified or not, that's, um, hella unsettling. yeesh
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
when I watched the press conference half-awake this morning I thought the robot detonated a bomb near or on the person of the shooter, that it was one of the devices he said he'd planted
I am just now fully understanding that the police supplied the explosive for the robot to carry and detonate with the intent to kill him
justified or not, that's, um, hella unsettling. yeesh
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
I don't really see why it's more unsettling than just shooting him, TBH, which is most likely what was going to happen.
posted by Artw at 10:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think we can allow people to be unsettled about anything in this current environment without questioning why.
posted by agregoli at 10:20 AM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 10:20 AM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
You can't really fight back against a murderbot. It's unsettling the same way a Dalek is unsettling.
posted by stolyarova at 10:21 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by stolyarova at 10:21 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
it's like uber but for murderous police officers
posted by entropicamericana at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
zachlipton: The Half Has Never Been Told by Ed Baptist if you've not read it uses metaphors related to parts of the black body to structure his history of slavery. He puts a lot of emphasis on the economic and social impact and so the body emphasis can be very jarring (and thus very effective).
posted by R343L at 10:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by R343L at 10:24 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
About "bodies": I think the talk of bodies also derives from biopower - the idea that state power is rationalized as population-health, the regulation of bodies for social wellbeing. So when the state understands itself, for instance, as forcing pregnant women to take drug tests "for their own good", that's biopower. That this is a kind of intimate way of conceptualizing control - like, the biopower state controls you not by saying "you are a heretic" or by saying "I am the king, I decide what you do"; it controls you by saying "for your own good, we are going to implant this birth control", "for the health of society, we have to stop and frisk these young men" "for the health of society we have to monitor your body, where it is and how you use it". It's the governing of people as populations - consider it to be dealing with people like a herd.
posted by Frowner at 10:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
Not really seeing that as a downside, unlesss were positing some kind of slippery slope of murderbots for people who are not active shooters.
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
This guy was a good enough shot to injure and kill many people from a distance. We don't know the details of how he was holed up or what ordinance or other explosives he may or may not have had. Any position from which they could shoot him, they too would be exposed.
Tear gas? You don't know that he doesn't have a gas mask, especially given the military nature of his actions and movement. Now you've given him a smoke cover to change positions.
Given what we know right now, I don't see any problem with the use of an explosive, regardless of how it was delivered to end the threat and situation. He could have seen it coming and surrender but he chose not to.
posted by splen at 10:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Tear gas? You don't know that he doesn't have a gas mask, especially given the military nature of his actions and movement. Now you've given him a smoke cover to change positions.
Given what we know right now, I don't see any problem with the use of an explosive, regardless of how it was delivered to end the threat and situation. He could have seen it coming and surrender but he chose not to.
posted by splen at 10:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't really see why it's more unsettling than just shooting him, TBH, which is most likely what was going to happen.
It's unsettling because no lives have risked in the taking of the other life. I think this particular situation seemingly justifies that in a narrow context, but these things have a way of growing beyond extraordinary use only into an everyday tool.
Would Philando Castile be alive now if an armed robot had pulled him over? Hard to say. What if the robot was being driven by a cop back at headquarters? Hard to say. Finding out those answers won't be pretty and DPD's use of the robot is one more step down that grey road.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's unsettling because no lives have risked in the taking of the other life. I think this particular situation seemingly justifies that in a narrow context, but these things have a way of growing beyond extraordinary use only into an everyday tool.
Would Philando Castile be alive now if an armed robot had pulled him over? Hard to say. What if the robot was being driven by a cop back at headquarters? Hard to say. Finding out those answers won't be pretty and DPD's use of the robot is one more step down that grey road.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
RedState - RedState! - has a sane essay about the situation.
The Uncomfortable Reason Why it Came to This in Dallas Yesterday.
Here's the reality that we don't often talk about - that societies are held together less by laws and force and threats of force than we are by ethereal and fragile concepts like mutual respect and belief in the justness of the system itself.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
The Uncomfortable Reason Why it Came to This in Dallas Yesterday.
Here's the reality that we don't often talk about - that societies are held together less by laws and force and threats of force than we are by ethereal and fragile concepts like mutual respect and belief in the justness of the system itself.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
"Crucially the robot did not make any decisions itself and would not be capable of doing so."
Come on Slate
It's a fair point. Bomb Robot was effectively a guided grenade toss. Autonomous Bomb Robot would potentially put innocent lives at risk.
Now, Nitrogen Flooding Robot might have been a better idea, but that's not Slate's fault.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Come on Slate
It's a fair point. Bomb Robot was effectively a guided grenade toss. Autonomous Bomb Robot would potentially put innocent lives at risk.
Now, Nitrogen Flooding Robot might have been a better idea, but that's not Slate's fault.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:27 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
According to the WSJ, the shooter (was there more than one suspect?, the robot one) was a PFC Masonry specialist who had served in Afghanistan.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on July 8, 2016
MN news station with purported police scanner recordings just before Philando Castile was pulled over.
"'The two occupants just look like people that were involved in a robbery,' the officer says. 'The driver looks more like one of our suspects, just 'cause of the wide set nose.'"
posted by nickmark at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
"'The two occupants just look like people that were involved in a robbery,' the officer says. 'The driver looks more like one of our suspects, just 'cause of the wide set nose.'"
posted by nickmark at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
a PFC Masonry specialist
illuminati conspiracy confirmed
posted by entropicamericana at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
illuminati conspiracy confirmed
posted by entropicamericana at 10:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
from "summer, somewhere" by Danez Smith:
I don't cry.
The last time was when my grandmother died in 2009.
I didn't cry at 9/11. At Sandy Hook or Orlando or the fascists that are everywhere now and who want my queer brown body gone.
But that poem. I'm sitting at the counter of a Mexican restaurant in the heart of Chicago watching the people walk by on the sidewalk and trying to eat my lunch and I am finally crying.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
I don't cry.
The last time was when my grandmother died in 2009.
I didn't cry at 9/11. At Sandy Hook or Orlando or the fascists that are everywhere now and who want my queer brown body gone.
But that poem. I'm sitting at the counter of a Mexican restaurant in the heart of Chicago watching the people walk by on the sidewalk and trying to eat my lunch and I am finally crying.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
According to the WSJ, the shooter (was there more than one suspect?, the robot one) was a PFC Masonry specialist who had served in Afghanistan.
Carpentry and Masonry Specialist (12W)
posted by Fidel Cashflow at 10:38 AM on July 8, 2016
Carpentry and Masonry Specialist (12W)
posted by Fidel Cashflow at 10:38 AM on July 8, 2016
A Small Needful Fact
Is that Eric Garner worked
for some time for the Parks and Rec.
Horticultural Department, which means,
perhaps, that with his very large hands,
perhaps, in all likelihood,
he put gently into the earth
some plants which, most likely,
some of them, in all likelihood,
continue to grow, continue
to do what such plants do, like house
and feed small and necessary creatures,
like being pleasant to touch and smell,
like converting sunlight
into food, like making it easier
for us to breathe.
-Ross Gay
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [79 favorites]
Is that Eric Garner worked
for some time for the Parks and Rec.
Horticultural Department, which means,
perhaps, that with his very large hands,
perhaps, in all likelihood,
he put gently into the earth
some plants which, most likely,
some of them, in all likelihood,
continue to grow, continue
to do what such plants do, like house
and feed small and necessary creatures,
like being pleasant to touch and smell,
like converting sunlight
into food, like making it easier
for us to breathe.
-Ross Gay
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [79 favorites]
"wide set nose"
I'm assuming this is a code phrase in common circulation, at least for that particular department, like when racist waiters talk about how "Canadians" don't tip.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm assuming this is a code phrase in common circulation, at least for that particular department, like when racist waiters talk about how "Canadians" don't tip.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:45 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's a racial pretext, making as much sense as "slanty eyes."
posted by rhizome at 10:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 10:48 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Interested Dallas/Fort Worth types, there's another rally tonight (and every night through July 11) in Fort Worth's Sundance Square starting at 7pm.
Are you tired yet? Want to see something different and positive? Join us as we address social issues within our own community and beyond. We will be starting from Sundance Square and walking to the courthouse steps for a vigil and open discussion. We are asking that attendees wear red shirts representing the shirt brother Alton wore as well as the bloodshed behind these senseless events. Also we can use signs saying "NO MORE KILLING" . Let's change the world by starting with our own communities!
posted by emjaybee at 10:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Are you tired yet? Want to see something different and positive? Join us as we address social issues within our own community and beyond. We will be starting from Sundance Square and walking to the courthouse steps for a vigil and open discussion. We are asking that attendees wear red shirts representing the shirt brother Alton wore as well as the bloodshed behind these senseless events. Also we can use signs saying "NO MORE KILLING" . Let's change the world by starting with our own communities!
posted by emjaybee at 10:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
The protest was announced just that morning. Is that enough time to plan an attack of this magnitude? What happened to the other three suspects?
posted by AFABulous at 10:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 10:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
MN news station with purported police scanner recordings just before Philando Castile was pulled over.
The station says they have not independently confirmed the authenticity of the recording. They tried, weren't able to, and aired it anyway.
It may turn out to be true, it's certainly plausible, but until it is verified it's just more bad journalism for the sake of attention. Irresponsible for them to report, irresponsible for you to post.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 10:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
The station says they have not independently confirmed the authenticity of the recording. They tried, weren't able to, and aired it anyway.
It may turn out to be true, it's certainly plausible, but until it is verified it's just more bad journalism for the sake of attention. Irresponsible for them to report, irresponsible for you to post.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 10:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Elliptical
They just can't seem to...They should try harder to...They ought to be more...We all wish they weren't so...They never...They always...Sometimes they...once in a while they...However it is obvious that they...Their overall tendency has been...The consequences of which have been...They don't appear to understand that...If only they would make an effort to...But we know how difficult it is for them to...Many of them remain unaware of...Some who should know better simply refuse to...Of course, their perspective has been limited by...On the other hand, they obviously feel entitled to...Certainly we can't forget that they...Nor can it be denied that they...We know that his has had an enormous impact on their...Nevertheless their behavior strikes us as...Our interactions unfortunately have been...
by Harryette Mullen
2002
--
I think some kind of fascinating study could be conducted based on how people fill in each of those ellipses.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
They just can't seem to...They should try harder to...They ought to be more...We all wish they weren't so...They never...They always...Sometimes they...once in a while they...However it is obvious that they...Their overall tendency has been...The consequences of which have been...They don't appear to understand that...If only they would make an effort to...But we know how difficult it is for them to...Many of them remain unaware of...Some who should know better simply refuse to...Of course, their perspective has been limited by...On the other hand, they obviously feel entitled to...Certainly we can't forget that they...Nor can it be denied that they...We know that his has had an enormous impact on their...Nevertheless their behavior strikes us as...Our interactions unfortunately have been...
by Harryette Mullen
2002
--
I think some kind of fascinating study could be conducted based on how people fill in each of those ellipses.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
. . . . .
posted by stolyarova at 10:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by stolyarova at 10:54 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know how anybody can argue that guns make us safer, and the more people who have guns, the safer we will be. One rifle literally decimated an armed police force.
That's always going to be true in the case of a sniper. A hidden opponent with a long reach is going to have a huge advantage. But that's an edge case in US life - it doesn't invalidate the argument (which I disagree with, just for other reasons).
Would Philando Castile be alive now if an armed robot had pulled him over? Hard to say. What if the robot was being driven by a cop back at headquarters?
I may be naïve but I'd like to think so. I've been professionally and personally aquainted with police officers that had comrades that were murdered more or less randomly in the line of duty (by white people in both cases, fwiw). I know that every time they walked up to a stopped car, part of them wondered if it was going to leave their children without a parent.
There are absolutely genuinely bad actors in the police, but a lot of the police shootings are caused by people (many of whom should never be in that position to begin with) that panic about their own personal safety and make horrible choices. Removing that personal risk won't reduce illegal profiling and persecution but I think it'll result in fewer bodies.
There's also good arguments that traffic stop robots should not be armed. And accepting that the use of drones/bots will happen (it will), we can work to make regulations that work for the people, like having the video footage stream to non-police controlled storage, so there's less ability to lose video ala the body cams.
posted by Candleman at 10:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's always going to be true in the case of a sniper. A hidden opponent with a long reach is going to have a huge advantage. But that's an edge case in US life - it doesn't invalidate the argument (which I disagree with, just for other reasons).
Would Philando Castile be alive now if an armed robot had pulled him over? Hard to say. What if the robot was being driven by a cop back at headquarters?
I may be naïve but I'd like to think so. I've been professionally and personally aquainted with police officers that had comrades that were murdered more or less randomly in the line of duty (by white people in both cases, fwiw). I know that every time they walked up to a stopped car, part of them wondered if it was going to leave their children without a parent.
There are absolutely genuinely bad actors in the police, but a lot of the police shootings are caused by people (many of whom should never be in that position to begin with) that panic about their own personal safety and make horrible choices. Removing that personal risk won't reduce illegal profiling and persecution but I think it'll result in fewer bodies.
There's also good arguments that traffic stop robots should not be armed. And accepting that the use of drones/bots will happen (it will), we can work to make regulations that work for the people, like having the video footage stream to non-police controlled storage, so there's less ability to lose video ala the body cams.
posted by Candleman at 10:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
A prompt response from the Nashville PD.
I will never understand how many public servants continue to fail at social media this far into the 21st century.
posted by TwoStride at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I will never understand how many public servants continue to fail at social media this far into the 21st century.
posted by TwoStride at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Irresponsible for them to report, irresponsible for you to post.
I mean, I could go to my other computer, and in less than 5 minutes I could produce an audio recording that to most people would be indistinguishable from a police scanner recording and send it to the media, and I could make it as inflammatory as I wanted. It's technically trivial. If it got picked up and amplified by the Internet it would be impossible to undo all the damage it caused when it was determined to be fake.
I believe the cops murdered Philando Castile, and I believe the kind of thing heard in the recording happens, but all we know from the report is that some rando gave the station a recording and it has not been verified or authenticated. The hosts said the reporter had been working on the story all evening, but they didn't say anything specific about why they determined it was authentic enough to air except that they had reached out to police and not heard back.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, I could go to my other computer, and in less than 5 minutes I could produce an audio recording that to most people would be indistinguishable from a police scanner recording and send it to the media, and I could make it as inflammatory as I wanted. It's technically trivial. If it got picked up and amplified by the Internet it would be impossible to undo all the damage it caused when it was determined to be fake.
I believe the cops murdered Philando Castile, and I believe the kind of thing heard in the recording happens, but all we know from the report is that some rando gave the station a recording and it has not been verified or authenticated. The hosts said the reporter had been working on the story all evening, but they didn't say anything specific about why they determined it was authentic enough to air except that they had reached out to police and not heard back.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
It may turn out to be true, it's certainly plausible, but until it is verified it's just more bad journalism for the sake of attention. Irresponsible for them to report, irresponsible for you to post.
Hardly. It wasn't verified by the police themselves, but the contents of the scan were consistent with the details of the shooting, the license plate number was identified, the location was the same as the shooting, and there was no evidence of tampering.
Believe it or not, news stations do not have to get confirmations from the police department before they air something. In fact, if they rely on police stations, they often don't get the facts they need when they need them.
The guy on social media I saw grousing about this was Bob Collins from MPR, who had retweeted something that was vetted by a police department last night -- the image of Mark Hughes with a gun, identifying him as a suspect. So, Bob's in no god damn position to complain.
posted by maxsparber at 11:10 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hardly. It wasn't verified by the police themselves, but the contents of the scan were consistent with the details of the shooting, the license plate number was identified, the location was the same as the shooting, and there was no evidence of tampering.
Believe it or not, news stations do not have to get confirmations from the police department before they air something. In fact, if they rely on police stations, they often don't get the facts they need when they need them.
The guy on social media I saw grousing about this was Bob Collins from MPR, who had retweeted something that was vetted by a police department last night -- the image of Mark Hughes with a gun, identifying him as a suspect. So, Bob's in no god damn position to complain.
posted by maxsparber at 11:10 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Delurking to post a letter format I've been using to contact local politicians regarding police accountability. I am white and have been writing to white officials, so this letter was written from that perspective and as such may contain areas of blindness and ignorance. I don't like the framing around money, but that seems to be what the forces of capitalism respond to.
I hereby release the following blockquoted text into the public domain. Please feel free to modify this writing to suit your needs.
Love to all.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 11:10 AM on July 8, 2016 [29 favorites]
I hereby release the following blockquoted text into the public domain. Please feel free to modify this writing to suit your needs.
To whom it may concern,I hope this will be useful for anyone who wants to contact local officials but doesn't know what to say. I barely know what to say.
I am writing concerning police accountability. Alton Sterling and Philando Castile were, in my view, lynched by police officers. I do not expect the officers to face serious consequences for killing two African-American citizens, even though video evidence of the murders exist. Our government are failing to protect some of our society's most vulnerable members. Each time our government fails to do so, vulnerable people, most especially people of colour, become more traumatized.
I would like to pass on an idea I have seen put forward by African-American activists -- namely, that police officers should be required to carry liability insurance. I believe this practice should be normalized and might help hold
police officers accountable for three reasons.
First, professionals of all sorts have some sort of bonding or liability insurance. Locksmiths, plumbers, doctors, drivers, and many other professionals in other fields must carry some sort of insurance in case their work harms
someone else. Policing is a demanding, difficult job where mistakes can have devestating consequences. Thus, police officers, as professionals, should be required by state and municipal law to carry such insurance.
Second, every time a police officer is found guilty of violent misconduct, the tax payers are on the hook for it. I think police officers need to pick up at least a little bit of that in a shared risk pool, so taxpayers are not footing the bill for civil damages arising from officer actions.
Finally, liability insurance premiums might discourage misconduct, if such actions result in an increased financial liability to officers personally. At some point, just as with automobile insurance, too many violations would eventually result in monthly premiums being unaffordable. If no company will insure such an officer, then that person could no longer continue as a police officer.
While it pains me to make these arguments that centre around money, it seems that financial penalties are a feasible way in the shorter-term to increase the accountability of police officers.
As white people, it is necessary to do all *we* can to end white supremacy. *We* are obligated to end this de facto state of Apartheid.
Because Black Lives *Matter*,
Love to all.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 11:10 AM on July 8, 2016 [29 favorites]
A police officer was shot this morning in Ballwin, a suburb of St. Louis. There was a massive, massive police response, with officers from all over St. Louis' various municipalities converging on the scene and on the hospital to where the officer was taken.
The suspect is in custody and according the media reports is a black male. And no one knows whether it's motivated by what's happened in Baton Rouge and Minnesota and Dallas, or whether it's a completely random occurrence. But very few of the open wounds in this community since Ferguson have healed, and this is going to set us back yet further. Social media sources (no official confirmation) are saying the officer has died. Heaven help us.
posted by Chanther at 11:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
The suspect is in custody and according the media reports is a black male. And no one knows whether it's motivated by what's happened in Baton Rouge and Minnesota and Dallas, or whether it's a completely random occurrence. But very few of the open wounds in this community since Ferguson have healed, and this is going to set us back yet further. Social media sources (no official confirmation) are saying the officer has died. Heaven help us.
posted by Chanther at 11:11 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
“Interview with ‘Killer’ Mike Render” —MzShyneka, WHTA - 107.9 FM Atlanta, 07 July 2016 [Source: Facebook]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:12 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
"It wasn't verified by the police themselves, but the contents of the scan were consistent with the details of the shooting, the license plate number was identified, the location was the same as the shooting, and there was no evidence of tampering."
Well, yeah, a fake recording made after the shooting would have all of this as well. I'm not saying that the recording is fake. I'm saying that none of those things listed would indicate it to be real.
posted by I-baLL at 11:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, yeah, a fake recording made after the shooting would have all of this as well. I'm not saying that the recording is fake. I'm saying that none of those things listed would indicate it to be real.
posted by I-baLL at 11:13 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I will never understand how many public servants continue to fail at social media this far into the 21st century.
Lots of people and companies fail at social media -- even those with communications experience or training -- because it is unfiltered and people tend not to think of posting online in the same way we think about speaking words aloud. That disconnect leads to a fundamental misunderstanding and misreading of online privacy and anonymity, as well as an unfortunate tendency by some to express their innermost, unfiltered thoughts -- the ones they usually have the sense to keep to themselves.
When someone like that officer gets fired though, that's not a failure. That's the rest of us getting damned lucky that he opened his mouth. His bosses took his gun away before he shot and killed someone. A win for all concerned.
posted by zarq at 11:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Lots of people and companies fail at social media -- even those with communications experience or training -- because it is unfiltered and people tend not to think of posting online in the same way we think about speaking words aloud. That disconnect leads to a fundamental misunderstanding and misreading of online privacy and anonymity, as well as an unfortunate tendency by some to express their innermost, unfiltered thoughts -- the ones they usually have the sense to keep to themselves.
When someone like that officer gets fired though, that's not a failure. That's the rest of us getting damned lucky that he opened his mouth. His bosses took his gun away before he shot and killed someone. A win for all concerned.
posted by zarq at 11:14 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
The protest was announced just that morning. Is that enough time to plan an attack of this magnitude? What happened to the other three suspects?
I don't know how long it takes for for an experienced someone who is already angry and unhinged to get their already-acquired arsenal, find a good elevated spot, and shoot people.
The bombs he claims to have placed are probably not actually real.
The other three suspects were likely swept up for being suspicious, but not actually party to the shooter himself. This explains the repeated police statements that they are "not cooperative."
There is almost never more than one shooter, but in the chaos of an incident, people often--if not always--believe there are more. Unfortunately, this means the conspiracy theorists get another tick in their ever-expanding horrible world-view.
posted by RedEmma at 11:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, yeah, a fake recording made after the shooting would have all of this as well. I'm not saying that the recording is fake. I'm saying that none of those things listed would indicate it to be real.
Based on this, almost no reporting could get done. Almost every photo taken of the shootings last night could be forgeries. Eyewitnesses all could be lying.
You match up the information your given with the facts you know to be true, and, if they line up, you have done your due diligence. An official seal of approval from a government organization that may have tried to delete evidence does not make it more or less credible.
The station identified that the recording had not been confirmed by the police. But they didn't need to sit on it until it was confirmed.
posted by maxsparber at 11:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Based on this, almost no reporting could get done. Almost every photo taken of the shootings last night could be forgeries. Eyewitnesses all could be lying.
You match up the information your given with the facts you know to be true, and, if they line up, you have done your due diligence. An official seal of approval from a government organization that may have tried to delete evidence does not make it more or less credible.
The station identified that the recording had not been confirmed by the police. But they didn't need to sit on it until it was confirmed.
posted by maxsparber at 11:19 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
maxsparber: Yes, I am aware of this. My point is that it mentioning already known facts doesn't indicate anything regarding its veracity.
posted by I-baLL at 11:22 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by I-baLL at 11:22 AM on July 8, 2016
There are absolutely genuinely bad actors in the police, but a lot of the police shootings are caused by people (many of whom should never be in that position to begin with) that panic about their own personal safety and make horrible choices.
That's one thing that repeatedly strikes me about many of the videos in which police murder or menace civilians -- how common it is for at least some of the officers involved to have really freaked-out (or amped-up, which is just an aggressive version of freaked-out) demeanor. I mean, firefighters, EMTs, rescue workers, etc. routinely go into demonstrably more chaotic, personally and publicly dangerous and stressful situations every single day that could make them dead, but they are by and large able to refrain from freaking out. It's crucial to the basic functions of the job. FDNY did not go shrieking and hyperventilating up the steps of the World Trade Center.
Or am I wrong about that? Firefighters have slogans like "calm the chaos" rather than "dominate and control" or whatever, don't they? Whereas it seems like the point or at least inevitable consequence of the whole deeply unrealistic police "we are warriors who are at risk every moment" mindset is to promote and amplify freakouts. At minimum, there needs to be a massive re-education effort, longterm CBT program, and ruthless cleanout of the officers too damaged and damaging to be effective.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
That's one thing that repeatedly strikes me about many of the videos in which police murder or menace civilians -- how common it is for at least some of the officers involved to have really freaked-out (or amped-up, which is just an aggressive version of freaked-out) demeanor. I mean, firefighters, EMTs, rescue workers, etc. routinely go into demonstrably more chaotic, personally and publicly dangerous and stressful situations every single day that could make them dead, but they are by and large able to refrain from freaking out. It's crucial to the basic functions of the job. FDNY did not go shrieking and hyperventilating up the steps of the World Trade Center.
Or am I wrong about that? Firefighters have slogans like "calm the chaos" rather than "dominate and control" or whatever, don't they? Whereas it seems like the point or at least inevitable consequence of the whole deeply unrealistic police "we are warriors who are at risk every moment" mindset is to promote and amplify freakouts. At minimum, there needs to be a massive re-education effort, longterm CBT program, and ruthless cleanout of the officers too damaged and damaging to be effective.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:26 AM on July 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
I mean, firefighters, EMTs, rescue workers, etc. routinely go into demonstrably more chaotic, personally and publicly dangerous and stressful situations every single day that could make them dead, but they are by and large able to refrain from freaking out.
How do you know this?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:29 AM on July 8, 2016
How do you know this?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:29 AM on July 8, 2016
Do Black Lives Matter to White Christians? from Sojourners. A nice punchy video perfect for putting on your Facebook or Twitter if it has white Christians on it that need some help with this.
posted by emjaybee at 11:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 11:30 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
My Excommunicated Cardinal: My only quibble is that I would change "taxpayers on the hook" to "public on the hook" or "people of CITY on the hook".
I think it's especially relevant given that many of the most vulnerable are not property-owners and thus do not pay municipal tax, but it IS their money being used to settle lawsuits. It's money that might have gone to schools, programs, parks, and support for those vulnerable populations if it hadn't instead gone to pay victims and lawyers. "Taxpayer" (the word and the concept) is not a suitable substitute for citizen, IMO.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think it's especially relevant given that many of the most vulnerable are not property-owners and thus do not pay municipal tax, but it IS their money being used to settle lawsuits. It's money that might have gone to schools, programs, parks, and support for those vulnerable populations if it hadn't instead gone to pay victims and lawyers. "Taxpayer" (the word and the concept) is not a suitable substitute for citizen, IMO.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, firefighters, EMTs, rescue workers, etc. routinely go into demonstrably more chaotic, personally and publicly dangerous and stressful situations every single day that could make them dead
Those situations don't involve people actively trying to kill them.
Firefighters also, presumably, don't have to worry about the fire lodging a complaint or suing them later. You're not given simulation after simulation where you're trying to outguess whether the sim is going to try to get you this time.
That's not remotely to claim that police work is super dangerous. We've already had the statistics upthread about how many jobs are more dangerous. It's a different kind of danger, though, and a different kind of mindset. And yes, that mindset (and systemic racism and lack of accountability) are clearly part of the problems we're having now.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Those situations don't involve people actively trying to kill them.
Firefighters also, presumably, don't have to worry about the fire lodging a complaint or suing them later. You're not given simulation after simulation where you're trying to outguess whether the sim is going to try to get you this time.
That's not remotely to claim that police work is super dangerous. We've already had the statistics upthread about how many jobs are more dangerous. It's a different kind of danger, though, and a different kind of mindset. And yes, that mindset (and systemic racism and lack of accountability) are clearly part of the problems we're having now.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
White right wing counterprotester at the BLM event in Portland pulls out his gun, threatens protesters. No police shot him.
I was there, right about where the camera in this video was, until about 5-10 minutes before this incident.
There were no police around when he brandished his Glock, two-handed, sweeping a group of protestors who had told him he needed to leave. According to Raw Story, two vans of police drove up several minutes later and arrested the guy based on reports that filtered back to them.
I was reading about the shootings in Dallas as I marched, which might explain why the police were holding back.
Background -- the guy with the gun is an alt-right activist who runs a YouTube channel called "Laughing at Liberals." His schtick, apparently, is showing up to demonstrations and instigating confrontations which he videotapes.
posted by msalt at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
I was there, right about where the camera in this video was, until about 5-10 minutes before this incident.
There were no police around when he brandished his Glock, two-handed, sweeping a group of protestors who had told him he needed to leave. According to Raw Story, two vans of police drove up several minutes later and arrested the guy based on reports that filtered back to them.
I was reading about the shootings in Dallas as I marched, which might explain why the police were holding back.
Background -- the guy with the gun is an alt-right activist who runs a YouTube channel called "Laughing at Liberals." His schtick, apparently, is showing up to demonstrations and instigating confrontations which he videotapes.
posted by msalt at 11:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
How do you know this?
Ill-informed incidental anecdotal evidence, I guess?
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ill-informed incidental anecdotal evidence, I guess?
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suppose my feeling is that if EMTs and firefighters are having the sort of panicked meltdowns we are regularly seeing from cops, they would be tackling and shooting more patients and houses.
posted by maxsparber at 11:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 11:34 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
"What Does it Mean to Raise a Black Kid Now?": Meanwhile, black mothers and fathers have to come home and face their black children—just as they did after the murders of Freddie Gray and Tamir Rice and Michael Brown and Eric Garner and Sandra Bland and countless more—and explain to them how this happened and why. By now, Melissa Harris-Perry (mother of Parker, 14, and Anna, 2) and GrassROOTS Community Foundation President Janice Johnson (mother of Marley, 11) are at a loss. Between them, they've mastered the data and know the research. They've read it all. And yet there is no foolproof guide to raising and protecting children while black
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd rather we defer to actual EMTs or firefighters, rather than guess how they are in the ambulance when they're on the verge of a patient coding.
posted by avalonian at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by avalonian at 11:36 AM on July 8, 2016
My experience has been that EMT's and firefighters under pressure are remarkably calm, efficient, and professional. Yeah, it's anecdata, but it's not like we're able to approach rescue workers under duress and ask them to objectively rate how freaked out they are on a scale of 1 to 10.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:40 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Firefighters also, presumably, don't have to worry about the fire lodging a complaint or suing them later.
Can individual police officers actually get sued? Or just the city or municipality that employs them?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:41 AM on July 8, 2016
Can individual police officers actually get sued? Or just the city or municipality that employs them?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:41 AM on July 8, 2016
I apologize if this has been posted before, but it feels powerful & relevant & I believes it deserves a share. Perhaps it can be offered up to friends/families in relevant facebook circles where #BLM is misunderstood.
Law professor's response to BLM shirt complaint.
[edited to tidy link]
posted by narwhal at 11:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [44 favorites]
Law professor's response to BLM shirt complaint.
[edited to tidy link]
posted by narwhal at 11:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [44 favorites]
Not an EMT or Firefighter, but I've worked with difficult populations that put me, others, and themselves at risk regularly. There's a professionalism that I saw regularly exhibited that I've rarely seen with cops. The cop mentality seems to be "be the biggest asshole in the room," which they can get away with because they have a badge that lets them be. Working with people who don't know what a badge is, you have to be a bit smarter about it.
Cops are just lazy assholes, AFAICT.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Cops are just lazy assholes, AFAICT.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:44 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
In Chicago EMTs are not allowed to enter an area until it has been cleared by police if it is an active crime scene.
The EMTs I've worked with have been fantastic people who do really awesome work, but the concerns are very different.
Though I do know an EMT who is fairly traumatized by not being able to save people because the area was not cleared.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
The EMTs I've worked with have been fantastic people who do really awesome work, but the concerns are very different.
Though I do know an EMT who is fairly traumatized by not being able to save people because the area was not cleared.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Firefighters have a significantly higher rate of alcoholism than the general populace. People handle their PTSD in different ways.
You can't panic and shoot a fire. I don't have any actual knowledge, by I strongly suspect that there are firefighters that melt down on the job and make mistakes that cost them or someone else their lives.
posted by Candleman at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can't panic and shoot a fire. I don't have any actual knowledge, by I strongly suspect that there are firefighters that melt down on the job and make mistakes that cost them or someone else their lives.
posted by Candleman at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
My experience has been that EMT's and firefighters under pressure are remarkably calm, efficient, and professional.
Because they aren't trained from the beginning, and throughout their careers to react to perceived dangers by escalating aggressively to dominate the situation.
posted by chimaera at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
Because they aren't trained from the beginning, and throughout their careers to react to perceived dangers by escalating aggressively to dominate the situation.
posted by chimaera at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
Police are trained to be the most dominant alpha in the room at all times. That's not a great way to keep a situation from escalating, and training people to submit to it unthinkingly might save lives but what a shitty society to live in.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:49 AM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'd rather we defer to actual EMTs or firefighters
My partner was an EMT and has had various high-stress jobs in her life. She's also an artist and highly emotional under normal circumstances.
But when she's on the job, holy shit, she has ice in her veins.
When we first met, she was very quick to defend cops from any criticism, having worked closely with them for years. Now that she works with people with mental illness, calling the cops is an absolute last resort. We all know why.
posted by klanawa at 11:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
My partner was an EMT and has had various high-stress jobs in her life. She's also an artist and highly emotional under normal circumstances.
But when she's on the job, holy shit, she has ice in her veins.
When we first met, she was very quick to defend cops from any criticism, having worked closely with them for years. Now that she works with people with mental illness, calling the cops is an absolute last resort. We all know why.
posted by klanawa at 11:50 AM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
See also my comment up thread about police training and how it encourages an aggressive posture. And the problems with how that is presented.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:51 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:51 AM on July 8, 2016
There's also good arguments that traffic stop robots should not be armed.
This is tough news to process but it's too early to be drinking, friend.
posted by adept256 at 11:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is tough news to process but it's too early to be drinking, friend.
posted by adept256 at 11:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thinking about it, I think it's tremendously important not to let the event from last night overshadow the discussion that preceded it. A mass shooting of police by a sniper is so rare an occurrence it has only ever happened once in US history, it seems to have been by a single shooter, and he himself said he wasn't representing any group. It is not likely to recur.
The frequent killings of black people by police are a 36 hour occurrence that is at the hands of official representatives of the state and reflects a baked-in racism that needs to be addressed. It is likely to happen again in the next day and a half.
The shooter did a tremendous disservice if he was genuinely concerned about black lives, because so spectacular an event is almost certainly going to overwhelming the smaller, daily horror of black death. We do not need to participate in this disservice by allowing ourselves to be distracted by the event in Dallas.
posted by maxsparber at 11:53 AM on July 8, 2016 [63 favorites]
The frequent killings of black people by police are a 36 hour occurrence that is at the hands of official representatives of the state and reflects a baked-in racism that needs to be addressed. It is likely to happen again in the next day and a half.
The shooter did a tremendous disservice if he was genuinely concerned about black lives, because so spectacular an event is almost certainly going to overwhelming the smaller, daily horror of black death. We do not need to participate in this disservice by allowing ourselves to be distracted by the event in Dallas.
posted by maxsparber at 11:53 AM on July 8, 2016 [63 favorites]
I've worked with police for years too. I haven't met any who were trained to be the most macho or dominant alpha. I have met a large variety, and by and large they are good people. There are notable bad news exceptions.
I've worked with plenty of EMTs and firefighters too. They come in a wide variety too, including people of the macho and alpha ilk.
It doesn't advance the cause of justice to name call, stereotype, or demonize police officers as a group.
posted by bearwife at 11:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've worked with plenty of EMTs and firefighters too. They come in a wide variety too, including people of the macho and alpha ilk.
It doesn't advance the cause of justice to name call, stereotype, or demonize police officers as a group.
posted by bearwife at 11:55 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Using a Bomb Robot to Kill a Suspect Is an Unprecedented Shift in Policing
posted by anarch at 11:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by anarch at 11:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Individual cops may be okay. The system is poisoned.
posted by AFABulous at 11:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 11:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
I haven't met any who were trained to be the... dominant alpha.
They are trained to take control of a situation. That can be interpreted as trained to be the "dominant alpha".
posted by small_ruminant at 11:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
They are trained to take control of a situation. That can be interpreted as trained to be the "dominant alpha".
posted by small_ruminant at 11:59 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
So. He's a vet. Maybe it's high time the GOP give a shit about the veterans returning from disastrous wars they started.
This is a layer cake of clusterfuck that has a long history. I am overwhelmed by the violence in this country and the apparent lack of will or principle by the GOP to do a single goddamn useful thing about it.
I don't have much hope that much is gonna change for the better either. Maybe in a few days or weeks I'll be able to process all this and feel like there's a path forward that's not "we're fucked".
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is a layer cake of clusterfuck that has a long history. I am overwhelmed by the violence in this country and the apparent lack of will or principle by the GOP to do a single goddamn useful thing about it.
I don't have much hope that much is gonna change for the better either. Maybe in a few days or weeks I'll be able to process all this and feel like there's a path forward that's not "we're fucked".
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
bearwife Until police officers as a group take steps to police their own and get rid of the evil ones, they're all collectively responsible.
This entire problem can be solved by police officers, the ones people keep claiming are mostly good, stopping it.
Seriously, that's it. This isn't a big mystery. This doesn't require a degree in sociology to figure out. All the reports from ex-cops who talk about the problem have one big point of commonality: they knew who the bad cops were. I don't think the people who write ex-cop memoirs are especially more perceptive than the average cop.
The bad actors are known. As long as the theoretical "good cops" persist in leaving the bad actors alone they share a collective responsibility for the acts of the bad cops.
Their **JOB** is to enforce the law, they don't get to just ignore that because the criminals in question are their fellow cops. If they are incapable of that then they need to say so publicly and ask for help.
posted by sotonohito at 12:10 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
This entire problem can be solved by police officers, the ones people keep claiming are mostly good, stopping it.
Seriously, that's it. This isn't a big mystery. This doesn't require a degree in sociology to figure out. All the reports from ex-cops who talk about the problem have one big point of commonality: they knew who the bad cops were. I don't think the people who write ex-cop memoirs are especially more perceptive than the average cop.
The bad actors are known. As long as the theoretical "good cops" persist in leaving the bad actors alone they share a collective responsibility for the acts of the bad cops.
Their **JOB** is to enforce the law, they don't get to just ignore that because the criminals in question are their fellow cops. If they are incapable of that then they need to say so publicly and ask for help.
posted by sotonohito at 12:10 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Yes, the shooter is a vet.
And armed police controlling and killing black men and women over minor infractions regularly can seem alot like war I would think.
I'm not so sure he was confused or mentally ill. Violence isn't the answer, but it isn't that far if a stretch mentally.
posted by AlexiaSky at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
And armed police controlling and killing black men and women over minor infractions regularly can seem alot like war I would think.
I'm not so sure he was confused or mentally ill. Violence isn't the answer, but it isn't that far if a stretch mentally.
posted by AlexiaSky at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
It doesn't advance the cause of justice to name call, stereotype, or demonize police officers as a group.
This is true, but they're the only group that has deadly force at their disposal. When you call one, you never know if you're going to get a good guy or a bad guy, or a good guy on a bad day, or a bad guy on a good day. For a lot of people in a lot of situations, the risk is simply to great.
And like the other commentor said, when you see the videos of these guys, they're so far past having their shit together (over a busted-out taillight, no less), you have to wonder if they ever had it together. And there are hundreds of those videos. Can you say the same for EMTs?
posted by klanawa at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is true, but they're the only group that has deadly force at their disposal. When you call one, you never know if you're going to get a good guy or a bad guy, or a good guy on a bad day, or a bad guy on a good day. For a lot of people in a lot of situations, the risk is simply to great.
And like the other commentor said, when you see the videos of these guys, they're so far past having their shit together (over a busted-out taillight, no less), you have to wonder if they ever had it together. And there are hundreds of those videos. Can you say the same for EMTs?
posted by klanawa at 12:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Carmelo Anthony of the NY Knicks on Instagram:
posted by palindromic at 12:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [38 favorites]
I'm calling for all my fellow ATHLETES to step up and take charge. Go to your local officials, leaders, congressman, assemblymen/assemblywoman and demand change. There's NO more sitting back and being afraid of tackling and addressing political issues anymore. Those days are long gone. We have to step up and take charge. We can't worry about what endorsements we gonna lose or whose going to look at us crazy. I need your voices to be heard. We can demand change. We just have to be willing to. THE TIME IS NOW. IM all in. Take Charge. Take Action. DEMAND CHANGE. Peace7This post was shared and supported by LeBron James and Gabrielle Union, actress and the wife of NBA star Dwyane Wade, tennis legend Boris Becker, WNBA star Chiney Ogwumike, and NFL player Andrew Hawkins, among others.
posted by palindromic at 12:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [38 favorites]
I'm betting if an EMT or firefighter lost their shit, they'd also lose their job. Police lose their shit and still keep their jobs.
posted by AFABulous at 12:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 12:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Report: Officer shot in Ballwin; manhunt underway
St Louis. Suspect in custody. Reports of officer dead.
posted by futz at 12:18 PM on July 8, 2016
St Louis. Suspect in custody. Reports of officer dead.
posted by futz at 12:18 PM on July 8, 2016
If you need some relief, many folks on Twitter recommending the #CarefreeBlackKids2k16 hashtag
Thank you so much for this. I definitely needed it.
posted by numaner at 12:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thank you so much for this. I definitely needed it.
posted by numaner at 12:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's linked to a few times earlier in the thread, but that professor's response to a student criticizing him for wearing a BLM shirt is pretty satisfying. If you're going to call for a duel with a law professor and you get to pick your weapon, a written memo is definitely not the best choice.
I can't copy/paste from the Imagur link so I'll just distill two points of his that I thought were very useful in talking to people who have a problem with the Black Lives Matter slogan
1. There is no invisible "only" in front of the slogan. People who have a problem with it are inserting that "only" themselves. You can say Police Lives Matter and not be arguing that Firefighters, EMT's and soldiers should all be killed
2. There actually is an invisible preamble to the slogan Black Lives Matter, and it's along these lines: "Because of the brutalizing and killing of black people at the hands of the police and the indifference of society in general and the criminal justice system in particular, it is important that we say..." but unfortunately the preamble is too long to fit on a shirt
posted by pocketfullofrye at 12:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [49 favorites]
I can't copy/paste from the Imagur link so I'll just distill two points of his that I thought were very useful in talking to people who have a problem with the Black Lives Matter slogan
1. There is no invisible "only" in front of the slogan. People who have a problem with it are inserting that "only" themselves. You can say Police Lives Matter and not be arguing that Firefighters, EMT's and soldiers should all be killed
2. There actually is an invisible preamble to the slogan Black Lives Matter, and it's along these lines: "Because of the brutalizing and killing of black people at the hands of the police and the indifference of society in general and the criminal justice system in particular, it is important that we say..." but unfortunately the preamble is too long to fit on a shirt
posted by pocketfullofrye at 12:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [49 favorites]
As horrible and despicable it is that these cops are killing, it's not just that. Dallas happened because they keep getting away with it.
I despise, with every fiber in my being, the use of "No Justice No Peace" as a rhetorical device. As an implicit threat. But that doesn't make it any less accurate of a prophecy.
posted by chimaera at 12:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I despise, with every fiber in my being, the use of "No Justice No Peace" as a rhetorical device. As an implicit threat. But that doesn't make it any less accurate of a prophecy.
posted by chimaera at 12:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Dallas happened because they keep getting away with it.
You can read the shooter's mind?
posted by AFABulous at 12:29 PM on July 8, 2016
You can read the shooter's mind?
posted by AFABulous at 12:29 PM on July 8, 2016
The next time someone says ‘all lives matter,’ show them these 5 paragraphs
I've also seen it said as: "when someone says 'Save the Rainforests', you don't assume they mean 'fuck all other kinds of forests'".
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:29 PM on July 8, 2016 [38 favorites]
I've also seen it said as: "when someone says 'Save the Rainforests', you don't assume they mean 'fuck all other kinds of forests'".
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:29 PM on July 8, 2016 [38 favorites]
I would like to know, actually, how the police positively identified the shooter on the scene and what their justification was for using lethal force to take him down, in the way they did. And I would certainly like to see video of that entire confrontation, as much of it as exists. It's the least we can ask whenever the police exercise the power to take a life that we as a society have entrusted them with.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:30 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 12:30 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jay Z, Swizz Beatz, and Miguel release anti-police violence songs
posted by palindromic at 12:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by palindromic at 12:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
"No Justice No Peace"
It's not a threat, it's a statement: "What looks to you like peace is not really peace at all because we do not have justice."
It is to true peace what a rictus is to a broad smile.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
It's not a threat, it's a statement: "What looks to you like peace is not really peace at all because we do not have justice."
It is to true peace what a rictus is to a broad smile.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
It's little things like this that amaze me about the world and make 2016 just a little bit better.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
A prompt response from the Nashville PD.
I don't want to give cookies for basic propriety, but it is refreshing to see a straightforward press release with all of the relevant information directly included, rather than some obfuscating "it has been brought to our attention that a badgeholding individual with a payroll relationship to the department may have been implicated in textual exclamations expressing a controversial perspective" bullshit.
posted by threeants at 12:34 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
I don't want to give cookies for basic propriety, but it is refreshing to see a straightforward press release with all of the relevant information directly included, rather than some obfuscating "it has been brought to our attention that a badgeholding individual with a payroll relationship to the department may have been implicated in textual exclamations expressing a controversial perspective" bullshit.
posted by threeants at 12:34 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Jay Z, Swizz Beatz, and Miguel release anti-police violence songs
In before some right-wing politician or pundit calls for an end to these "violence songs" with anti-police rhetoric in them.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:35 PM on July 8, 2016
In before some right-wing politician or pundit calls for an end to these "violence songs" with anti-police rhetoric in them.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:35 PM on July 8, 2016
Jesus.
St. Louis Police Union Spokesman Jeff Roorda Blames Dallas Tragedy on Barack Obama
The post, which appears to now be deleted, showed hands drenched in blood and claimed in all caps "THIS BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS, MR. PRESIDENT."
Making matters worse, the police union's official account retweeted Roorda, adding, "I do hope you're happy @BarackObama."
Roorda's post was widely shared before it was taken down, and this morning there are calls for his resignation. Considering the man lives for this kind of controversy, and was once again invited to go on CNN this morning to bloviate and inflame racial tensions in a time of tragedy, we'd suggest not holding your breath.
posted by futz at 12:37 PM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
St. Louis Police Union Spokesman Jeff Roorda Blames Dallas Tragedy on Barack Obama
The post, which appears to now be deleted, showed hands drenched in blood and claimed in all caps "THIS BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS, MR. PRESIDENT."
Making matters worse, the police union's official account retweeted Roorda, adding, "I do hope you're happy @BarackObama."
Roorda's post was widely shared before it was taken down, and this morning there are calls for his resignation. Considering the man lives for this kind of controversy, and was once again invited to go on CNN this morning to bloviate and inflame racial tensions in a time of tragedy, we'd suggest not holding your breath.
posted by futz at 12:37 PM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
If it’s unfair to judge all cops by the behavior of the worst cops, is it at least fair to judge them by the behavior of the people they elect to represent themselves?
posted by nicepersonality at 12:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by nicepersonality at 12:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
What do black people have to do? Be absolutely perfect 100% of the time for the next ten years and then if police are still killing at that rate go tearfully on CNN asking why the police still kill them?
I mean all black people are asking for is for their lives to have some semblance of value when interacting with a police officer. All they want is for the default of any involuntary reflex to not be "HE'S REACHING FOR A GUN" *BANG*.
What the fuck do black people need to do to get a basic amount of decency in actions with the police?
posted by Talez at 12:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [32 favorites]
I mean all black people are asking for is for their lives to have some semblance of value when interacting with a police officer. All they want is for the default of any involuntary reflex to not be "HE'S REACHING FOR A GUN" *BANG*.
What the fuck do black people need to do to get a basic amount of decency in actions with the police?
posted by Talez at 12:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [32 favorites]
It is beyond disappointing to get this doubling down on the demonization of ALL police officers and the willingness to blame each and every one for the acts of the rogues. Yes, the rogues must be stopped. Yes, police killings should be rare and every one should be justified. And yes, the disproportionate killing of people of color needs to be addressed on an emergency basis.
But likewise, targeted killing of police officers needs to stop. (And come on, as long as guns are readily available, the police are sure not the only ones who are armed.) So does the stereotyping and demonization of the groups to which the police killers belong.
If you are going to fight racism and its killing toll, the tool you do not want to use is the same bigotry, aimed at another group full of good and well meaning people.
posted by bearwife at 12:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
But likewise, targeted killing of police officers needs to stop. (And come on, as long as guns are readily available, the police are sure not the only ones who are armed.) So does the stereotyping and demonization of the groups to which the police killers belong.
If you are going to fight racism and its killing toll, the tool you do not want to use is the same bigotry, aimed at another group full of good and well meaning people.
posted by bearwife at 12:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
But likewise, targeted killing of police officers needs to stop.
This is such a false equivalence that I can't even
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [90 favorites]
This is such a false equivalence that I can't even
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [90 favorites]
I despise, with every fiber in my being, the use of "No Justice No Peace" as a rhetorical device. As an implicit threat. But that doesn't make it any less accurate of a prophecy.
tivalasvegas has it--you can see "no peace"=violence or you can see it as = disruption/protest. And it's a sort of philosophical statement too; when injustice continues, protest and resistance will too.
posted by emjaybee at 12:46 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
tivalasvegas has it--you can see "no peace"=violence or you can see it as = disruption/protest. And it's a sort of philosophical statement too; when injustice continues, protest and resistance will too.
posted by emjaybee at 12:46 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
It is? Because dead police officers isn't a problem? Or because targeting of police officers isn't happening too? Maybe you should even.
posted by bearwife at 12:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by bearwife at 12:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
tivalasvegas has it--you can see "no peace"=violence or you can see it as = disruption/protest. And it's a sort of philosophical statement too; when injustice continues, protest and resistance will too.
Sure, but as long as some people take it to mean "no peace"=violence, and some of those people, no matter how misguided or completely opposed to the movement the protest is for, do in fact, become violent, it's a problem. English is a pretty rich language and there are lots of things to chant. Promising "no peace" at peaceful protests is counterproductive.
posted by zachlipton at 12:49 PM on July 8, 2016
Sure, but as long as some people take it to mean "no peace"=violence, and some of those people, no matter how misguided or completely opposed to the movement the protest is for, do in fact, become violent, it's a problem. English is a pretty rich language and there are lots of things to chant. Promising "no peace" at peaceful protests is counterproductive.
posted by zachlipton at 12:49 PM on July 8, 2016
The idea that it is bigotry to have a problem with people who elect to join a career path that fails to self-regulate... I don't have words other than "dumb."
And I feel the same way about payday loan folks, and manage to not want either group to be murdered.
posted by phearlez at 12:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
And I feel the same way about payday loan folks, and manage to not want either group to be murdered.
posted by phearlez at 12:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
"_______ Law School is experiencing an unprecedented decline in bar passage rate."
If this letter is an example of the logic and writing skills of its students, I'm not hugely surprised. How nice that the prof's response includes some helpful remedial tutoring -- I'd like to send them one of those weird chocolate-covered fruit bouquets for the "dependent clause" paragraph alone.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
If this letter is an example of the logic and writing skills of its students, I'm not hugely surprised. How nice that the prof's response includes some helpful remedial tutoring -- I'd like to send them one of those weird chocolate-covered fruit bouquets for the "dependent clause" paragraph alone.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Leon Wolf (a white, conservative man) posted a refreshingly open and honest article on Redstate.com (of all places!): http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/07/08/uncomfortable-reason-came-dallas-yesterday/
TL;DR He specifically identifies police brutality in minority communities and lack of justice and oversight as the catalyst for this unrest. This is obvious to most of us, but it's heartening to know that people outside of our 'liberal bubble' get it too.
And, I never thought I'd ever say this, especially about RedState, but....you should read the comments. People are coming out of the woodwork to support the author, and they're calling out people who are trying to bring up tired, uninformed arguments.
Honestly, after wallowing through all of this shit today, this was a bit of relief, from an unlikely source.
posted by chara at 12:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
TL;DR He specifically identifies police brutality in minority communities and lack of justice and oversight as the catalyst for this unrest. This is obvious to most of us, but it's heartening to know that people outside of our 'liberal bubble' get it too.
And, I never thought I'd ever say this, especially about RedState, but....you should read the comments. People are coming out of the woodwork to support the author, and they're calling out people who are trying to bring up tired, uninformed arguments.
Honestly, after wallowing through all of this shit today, this was a bit of relief, from an unlikely source.
posted by chara at 12:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
So what happened to the other three or four alleged coconspirators being held, now that everyone is reporting that Micah Johnson acted alone? Have they been released? Charged? Rendered to a Homan-Square-style black site? Did they ever exist or was it just more fucking cop bullshit?
posted by enn at 12:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by enn at 12:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
For as ugly and chaotic as things are getting and are only going to get worse I have a lot of long term hope. For every handful of white folks who double down on their racism after every police shooting, there is a white person who until now assumed everyone's police experience was the same as their own is now having their views challenged and altered by videos of these shootings. I do see it among some conservative acquaintances, and the redstate article linked to upthread is in the same vein.
Racism is the ugliest component of America's cultural inheritance and it will be with us for centuries, and even if the situations decays into urban breakdown and the national guard in the streets, which I can see happening, I will continue to have hope and I don't think it's wishful thinking.
posted by MillMan at 12:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Racism is the ugliest component of America's cultural inheritance and it will be with us for centuries, and even if the situations decays into urban breakdown and the national guard in the streets, which I can see happening, I will continue to have hope and I don't think it's wishful thinking.
posted by MillMan at 12:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you are going to fight racism and its killing toll, the tool you do not want to use is the same bigotry, aimed at another group full of good and well meaning people.
It's not bigotry to point out that cops who are silent into the face of police brutality are part of the problem. And it's appalling to equate complacent police being judged for their inaction--inaction that contributes to the death of unarmed civilians--to real bigotry.
posted by Mavri at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
It's not bigotry to point out that cops who are silent into the face of police brutality are part of the problem. And it's appalling to equate complacent police being judged for their inaction--inaction that contributes to the death of unarmed civilians--to real bigotry.
posted by Mavri at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
It is? Because dead police officers isn't a problem?
I would gently and quietly suggest that comparing the completely awful murder of cops that just occurred to the centuries of violence experience by blacks in America (often sanctioned by government) is not a useful comparison .
English is a pretty rich language and there are lots of things to chant. Promising "no peace" at peaceful protests is counterproductive.
Turning this is into an English criticism is not very helpful
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [47 favorites]
I would gently and quietly suggest that comparing the completely awful murder of cops that just occurred to the centuries of violence experience by blacks in America (often sanctioned by government) is not a useful comparison .
English is a pretty rich language and there are lots of things to chant. Promising "no peace" at peaceful protests is counterproductive.
Turning this is into an English criticism is not very helpful
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [47 favorites]
Hit-and-Run Driver Targets "Black Lives Matter" Protest in Ferguson (VIDEO)
The protesters can be seen holding signs and chanting peacefully in the street until the 5:50 mark, when a car horn sounds and a white Chrysler sedan pulls into view. The car stops briefly, but then accelerates forward. Weeks, holding a "Black Lives Matter" sign in his right hand, has his left hand on the hood as he backpedals away from the moving car.
When another protester steps up onto the bumper, the driver hits the gas. Weeks and the other man somersault into the street as the Chrysler plows forward. The driver, who appeared to be a middle-aged white woman, speeds off out of sight.
Witnesses say police and paramedics refused to help after the driver hit Weeks, leaving two friends to drive him to the hospital. A city spokesman didn't return a request for comment on Thursday evening, but a Ferguson police officer rejected protesters' account, questioning whether there had been a hit-and-run at all.
posted by futz at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
The protesters can be seen holding signs and chanting peacefully in the street until the 5:50 mark, when a car horn sounds and a white Chrysler sedan pulls into view. The car stops briefly, but then accelerates forward. Weeks, holding a "Black Lives Matter" sign in his right hand, has his left hand on the hood as he backpedals away from the moving car.
When another protester steps up onto the bumper, the driver hits the gas. Weeks and the other man somersault into the street as the Chrysler plows forward. The driver, who appeared to be a middle-aged white woman, speeds off out of sight.
Witnesses say police and paramedics refused to help after the driver hit Weeks, leaving two friends to drive him to the hospital. A city spokesman didn't return a request for comment on Thursday evening, but a Ferguson police officer rejected protesters' account, questioning whether there had been a hit-and-run at all.
posted by futz at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
The rapper on that Swizz Beats track is Scarface, who is usually worth listening to.
posted by lkc at 12:54 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by lkc at 12:54 PM on July 8, 2016
But likewise, targeted killing of police officers needs to stop.
Essentially no one disagrees with the idea that people shouldn't be trying to kill cops. But this situation in Dallas is remarkable in precisely the way that the cops-shoot-black-man situations that prompted this thread in the first place aren't. And that unremarkable fact—that a systemic disproportionate rate of unnecessary killings of citizens, black men and boys in particular, by cops is just a thing we keep seeing—is part of why I think people are not feeling receptive to repeated attempts to make this specifically and particularly about the danger to cops from citizens, much as that danger is itself a shitty thing that folks who are strongly cop-adjacent have legitimate emotional stakes in.
This is such a difficult, charged subject and situation that there is no good clean easy through-line to agreement. There is no simple balance of issues that will leave everyone feeling basically okay. Things aren't okay. But I think being aware of the context from which folks' anger and at times infelicity of expression about the state of cops-shooting-citizens is coming is part of getting through a conversation like this. And at the moment directing the conversation to "no but people shouldn't shoot cops" again when basically nobody thinks people should be shooting cops is not really crediting that context, even if I can understand why it comes up.
posted by cortex at 12:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [57 favorites]
Essentially no one disagrees with the idea that people shouldn't be trying to kill cops. But this situation in Dallas is remarkable in precisely the way that the cops-shoot-black-man situations that prompted this thread in the first place aren't. And that unremarkable fact—that a systemic disproportionate rate of unnecessary killings of citizens, black men and boys in particular, by cops is just a thing we keep seeing—is part of why I think people are not feeling receptive to repeated attempts to make this specifically and particularly about the danger to cops from citizens, much as that danger is itself a shitty thing that folks who are strongly cop-adjacent have legitimate emotional stakes in.
This is such a difficult, charged subject and situation that there is no good clean easy through-line to agreement. There is no simple balance of issues that will leave everyone feeling basically okay. Things aren't okay. But I think being aware of the context from which folks' anger and at times infelicity of expression about the state of cops-shooting-citizens is coming is part of getting through a conversation like this. And at the moment directing the conversation to "no but people shouldn't shoot cops" again when basically nobody thinks people should be shooting cops is not really crediting that context, even if I can understand why it comes up.
posted by cortex at 12:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [57 favorites]
It is? Because dead police officers isn't a problem? Or because targeting of police officers isn't happening too? Maybe you should even.
When someone shoots a police officer the families and other officers can expect the full weight of the prosecution to come down on them. No grand juries as a political escape hatch, no deals, the jury is traditionally biased in favor of the police. The victim will be given justice by the system.
If you're someone shot by a cop in cold blood your family members and other members of your community can expect the prosecution to defend them tooth and nail. They'll leave the decision for a grand jury and throw it to give themselves political cover. They'll find bullshit pretexts to remove sympathetic jury members and if all else fails they'll undercharge and offer a deal. The victim will be failed by the system.
This is why black people protest. This is why they're angry.
The cops will get justice. History shows us that we should not expect Alton B. Sterling or Philando Castile to receive justice.
posted by Talez at 12:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [80 favorites]
When someone shoots a police officer the families and other officers can expect the full weight of the prosecution to come down on them. No grand juries as a political escape hatch, no deals, the jury is traditionally biased in favor of the police. The victim will be given justice by the system.
If you're someone shot by a cop in cold blood your family members and other members of your community can expect the prosecution to defend them tooth and nail. They'll leave the decision for a grand jury and throw it to give themselves political cover. They'll find bullshit pretexts to remove sympathetic jury members and if all else fails they'll undercharge and offer a deal. The victim will be failed by the system.
This is why black people protest. This is why they're angry.
The cops will get justice. History shows us that we should not expect Alton B. Sterling or Philando Castile to receive justice.
posted by Talez at 12:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [80 favorites]
Because dead police officers isn't a problem? Or because targeting of police officers isn't happening too? Maybe you should even.
Because you're comparing decades of systemic brutality resulting in hundreds dead to one or two isolated, horrible incidents. It's incredibly dishonest.
posted by Mavri at 12:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Because you're comparing decades of systemic brutality resulting in hundreds dead to one or two isolated, horrible incidents. It's incredibly dishonest.
posted by Mavri at 12:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Not wanting random killing of police officers is entirely compatible with not wanting random killings of anyone and greater scrutiny of killings by police officers.
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
Witnesses say police and paramedics refused to help after the driver hit Weeks, leaving two friends to drive him to the hospital. A city spokesman didn't return a request for comment on Thursday evening, but a Ferguson police officer rejected protesters' account, questioning whether there had been a hit-and-run at all.
Plus ça change...
posted by zombieflanders at 12:58 PM on July 8, 2016
Plus ça change...
posted by zombieflanders at 12:58 PM on July 8, 2016
for the actions of the rogues.
sure are a lot of rogues out there...
posted by futz at 12:59 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
sure are a lot of rogues out there...
posted by futz at 12:59 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
people are not feeling receptive to repeated attempts to make this specifically and particularly about the danger to cops from citizens
Good grief, neither am I. I don't think I've said anything to minimize how incredibly serious and immediate the threat to people of color is from police encounters. And I'm going to be the last person to say that racism is a deeper and more severe problem, by orders of magnitude, than targeting police officers.
But what I object to here, and I am truly upset that no one else is objecting to, is the willingness to downplay how much the dynamics of blaming all police for the murders of people like Sterling and Castile fed right into these latest killings of these police officers. We have got to stop doing that. Not all officers are responsible, particularly not line officers who were doing their job in Texas of protecting protestors. Can't we call for accountability for murders of people of color without veering into using the same kind of skewed/bigoted thinking that feeds racism all over our society?
posted by bearwife at 1:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Good grief, neither am I. I don't think I've said anything to minimize how incredibly serious and immediate the threat to people of color is from police encounters. And I'm going to be the last person to say that racism is a deeper and more severe problem, by orders of magnitude, than targeting police officers.
But what I object to here, and I am truly upset that no one else is objecting to, is the willingness to downplay how much the dynamics of blaming all police for the murders of people like Sterling and Castile fed right into these latest killings of these police officers. We have got to stop doing that. Not all officers are responsible, particularly not line officers who were doing their job in Texas of protecting protestors. Can't we call for accountability for murders of people of color without veering into using the same kind of skewed/bigoted thinking that feeds racism all over our society?
posted by bearwife at 1:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I just remembered something. I was walking home the other day, before Alton Sterling was killed, and a Black kid, maybe 19 or 20, was riding his bike in the opposite direction. As he approached he waved at me like he knew me, smiled big and yelled Hey! just as he passed. I said Hey! back and waved. I have no idea why he cheerfully greeted a stranger like that, it's not the norm in my neighborhood, but his enthusiasm was infectious. Now I have so much heartache knowing what he could potentially face.
posted by AFABulous at 1:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 1:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
I despise, with every fiber in my being, the use of "No Justice No Peace" as a rhetorical device. As an implicit threat. But that doesn't make it any less accurate of a prophecy.
So let's talk about the history of the phrase. It's been used in protests since at least the 1970's, and I'm nearly positive that it originates in a speech given by Martin Luther King, Jr., on December 14, 1967. Dr. King was speaking outside a California prison where Vietnam war protesters, both men and women, were being held. During the speech he spent time comparing the fight for civil rights with the antiwar movement and noted that they had similar goals.
What he said was: "And I might say that I see these two struggles as one struggle. There can be no justice without peace. And there can be no peace without justice."
When those in authority -- be they a government waging war or a police force that treats one group of citizens differently than another -- perpetuate injustice then people have a right to protest. They have a right to stand up and have their voices heard. As Dr. King notes, they have a right to break unjust laws.
"No Justice, No Peace" isn't a threat. It's not a call for violence. It's a call for people to do the right thing, whether they are privileged or not. Directly affected or not.
King also said: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”
posted by zarq at 1:02 PM on July 8, 2016 [83 favorites]
So let's talk about the history of the phrase. It's been used in protests since at least the 1970's, and I'm nearly positive that it originates in a speech given by Martin Luther King, Jr., on December 14, 1967. Dr. King was speaking outside a California prison where Vietnam war protesters, both men and women, were being held. During the speech he spent time comparing the fight for civil rights with the antiwar movement and noted that they had similar goals.
What he said was: "And I might say that I see these two struggles as one struggle. There can be no justice without peace. And there can be no peace without justice."
When those in authority -- be they a government waging war or a police force that treats one group of citizens differently than another -- perpetuate injustice then people have a right to protest. They have a right to stand up and have their voices heard. As Dr. King notes, they have a right to break unjust laws.
"No Justice, No Peace" isn't a threat. It's not a call for violence. It's a call for people to do the right thing, whether they are privileged or not. Directly affected or not.
King also said: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”
posted by zarq at 1:02 PM on July 8, 2016 [83 favorites]
He specifically identifies police brutality in minority communities and lack of justice and oversight as the catalyst for this unrest
I was reminded of a line from another, older document:
The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.... For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
The NRA issued a statement on the Dallas murders of police. No statement on the murder of Philando Castile, while investigation is ongoing. No apparent statement from Gun Owners of America, while Second Amendment Foundation says: ""We are cognizant of the racial overtones arising from Mr. Castile's death," Gottlieb noted. "The concerns of our members, and honest gun owners everywhere, go even deeper. Exercising our right to bear arms should not translate to a death sentence over something so trivial as a traffic stop for a broken tail light, and we are going to watch this case with a magnifying glass.""
Why the NRA isn’t commenting on the Philando Castile police shooting
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:02 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
I was reminded of a line from another, older document:
The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.... For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
The NRA issued a statement on the Dallas murders of police. No statement on the murder of Philando Castile, while investigation is ongoing. No apparent statement from Gun Owners of America, while Second Amendment Foundation says: ""We are cognizant of the racial overtones arising from Mr. Castile's death," Gottlieb noted. "The concerns of our members, and honest gun owners everywhere, go even deeper. Exercising our right to bear arms should not translate to a death sentence over something so trivial as a traffic stop for a broken tail light, and we are going to watch this case with a magnifying glass.""
Why the NRA isn’t commenting on the Philando Castile police shooting
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:02 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
“It took me a long time, and a number of people talking to me through the years to get a sense of this. If you are a normal, white American, the truth is you don’t understand being black in America and you instinctively under-estimate the level of discrimination and the level of additional risk.”
Newt Gingrich, folks
I appreciate the sentiment but, being Newt, he couldn't help but equate being white with being "normal". The obvious corollary being that anyone who isn't white isn't a normal American.
You tried, Newt. You tried.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [47 favorites]
Newt Gingrich, folks
I appreciate the sentiment but, being Newt, he couldn't help but equate being white with being "normal". The obvious corollary being that anyone who isn't white isn't a normal American.
You tried, Newt. You tried.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [47 favorites]
Mashable asked a spokesperson for Dallas PD over the phone why the tweet [calling hughes a suspect] was still online. "Because we're keeping it on there," came the reply.
well. that answers that, i suppose.
posted by nadawi at 1:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
well. that answers that, i suppose.
posted by nadawi at 1:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
That's literally disgusting. Screw the person who said that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:07 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:07 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
I appreciate the sentiment but, being Newt, he couldn't help but equate being white with being "normal".
To be fair, I guess, if I must, to Newt, a lot of white people do this. A LOT. See also all the people who write about being "nice little white ladies" or "reg'lar white folk" or whatever on Metafilter.
posted by zutalors! at 1:07 PM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
i've reported that tweet by dallas PD to twitter as targeted harassment and it seems a lot of others are doing the same. not that twitter has a great track record on things like this, but it's better than nothing i suppose
posted by burgerrr at 1:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 1:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've been following this and now I'm seeing in this thread how other emergency services react to dangerous situations.
There's a convent nearby where I sometimes volunteer. The nuns host a free meal for anyone. They made a vow to do that and they are the most beautiful women I've met.
Of course, they get people affected by drugs, alcohol and mental illness, and something inevitably happens. I was in the kitchen when something happened, and six foot tall male me reacts and is blocked by a Sister. They can handle it themselves.
How? With smiles, love, vulnerability and soothing words. Their trick is they are completely non-threatening. My physical presence alone would have escalated things. In the end they calmed the guy down, put some food in him, and quite literally prayed for him.
The striking thing is they knew I'd hear the commotion and come. But it's not the time for brawn.
posted by adept256 at 1:11 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
There's a convent nearby where I sometimes volunteer. The nuns host a free meal for anyone. They made a vow to do that and they are the most beautiful women I've met.
Of course, they get people affected by drugs, alcohol and mental illness, and something inevitably happens. I was in the kitchen when something happened, and six foot tall male me reacts and is blocked by a Sister. They can handle it themselves.
How? With smiles, love, vulnerability and soothing words. Their trick is they are completely non-threatening. My physical presence alone would have escalated things. In the end they calmed the guy down, put some food in him, and quite literally prayed for him.
The striking thing is they knew I'd hear the commotion and come. But it's not the time for brawn.
posted by adept256 at 1:11 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
Where's the NRA asking why the Dallas PD continues to harass a law-abiding gun owner?
posted by zachlipton at 1:11 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 1:11 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I've always read the "nice little white lady" or "normal white American" to be a class shibboleth.
posted by Sara C. at 1:11 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 1:11 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mashable asked a spokesperson for Dallas PD over the phone why the tweet was still online. "Because we're keeping it on there," came the reply.
And what was the rest of the conversation? Did anyone ask why is being being kept on there and/or what the policy about deleting tweets is? Where's the transcript of the conversation?
I ask these questions not as a defense of DPD, but because the Mashable story seems very incomplete
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
And what was the rest of the conversation? Did anyone ask why is being being kept on there and/or what the policy about deleting tweets is? Where's the transcript of the conversation?
I ask these questions not as a defense of DPD, but because the Mashable story seems very incomplete
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Snoop Dogg, The Game lead march to LAPD headquarters:
At the graduation ceremony, LAPD Chief Charlie Beck exhorted the new officers to not let what happened in Dallas interfere with their mandate to uphold the law fairly for all.posted by zachlipton at 1:14 PM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
"This is not about black lives. This is not about brown lives. This is not about blue lives. This is about America," said an emotional Beck, speaking slowly and deliberately, his badge covered with a strip of black mourning tape. "This is about a country based on a promise that does not recognize a difference in the shades of humanity. You are the symbol of that promise."
He told the graduates that after they report for their first day of work on Sunday they will encounter people experiencing the worst days of their lives.
"Given their circumstances you might act in a similar fashion," he said. "Have empathy. Look into people's hearts. ... Help them."
Beck asked God to bless the city of Dallas. He also said more than 200 Los Angeles police officers have died in the line of duty, including 60 since he joined the force 40 years ago.
Thank you, lkc. I scrolled past those tracks because I'm at work but that ensures I will go back and listen when I'm done.
posted by Bacon Bit at 1:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bacon Bit at 1:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I ask these questions not as a defense of DPD, but because the Mashable story seems very incomplete
the link in that section goes to media relations for the dallas pd. my assumption is they're encouraging other people to keep asking the question/related questions. give 'em a call, see what they say.
posted by nadawi at 1:17 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
the link in that section goes to media relations for the dallas pd. my assumption is they're encouraging other people to keep asking the question/related questions. give 'em a call, see what they say.
posted by nadawi at 1:17 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The police have bombs sitting on the shelf just in case they need them?
posted by JackFlash at 1:20 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by JackFlash at 1:20 PM on July 8, 2016
The police have bombs sitting on the shelf just in case they need them?
One of the ways to deal with a bomb is, paradoxically, to blow it up.
posted by Etrigan at 1:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
One of the ways to deal with a bomb is, paradoxically, to blow it up.
posted by Etrigan at 1:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
my assumption is they're encouraging other people to keep asking the question/related questions.
That isn't journalism, that's just filling space.
give 'em a call, see what they say.
Oh, you're calling also?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:25 PM on July 8, 2016
That isn't journalism, that's just filling space.
give 'em a call, see what they say.
Oh, you're calling also?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:25 PM on July 8, 2016
CNN's now reporting that authorities have concluded Johnson was the only shooter.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:25 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by zombieflanders at 1:25 PM on July 8, 2016
I was really hoping this wasn't the start of something horrible and now I'm not sure.
The Associated Press @AP (3:22pm · 8 Jul 2016)posted by AFABulous at 1:29 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
BREAKING: Authorities: Man called 911 in south Georgia to report break-in, then ambushed, shot officer who came to investigate.
In other news, Georgia governor Nathan Deal continues to be a horrible piece of shit:
posted by zombieflanders at 1:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
The anti-police incident to which I referred was the shooting of law enforcement officers, as that was the stated intent of the shooters, and not of those peacefully demonstrating.Yeah, you're not fooling anyone with that bullshit, asshole.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, you're calling also?
i felt the article was clear and informative. you're the one who has additional questions.
posted by nadawi at 1:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
i felt the article was clear and informative. you're the one who has additional questions.
posted by nadawi at 1:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Adam Gopnik: The Horrific, Predictable Result of a Widely Armed Citizenry
Last night’s tragedy was also the grotesque reductio ad absurdum of the claim that it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun. There were nothing but good guys and they had nothing but guns, and five died anyway, as helpless as the rest of us.posted by theodolite at 1:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [40 favorites]
Once again, the difference in policy views is clear, and can be coolly stated: those who insist on the right to concealed weapons, to the open carrying of firearms, to the availability of military weapons—to the essentially unlimited dissemination of guns—guarantee that the murders will continue. They have no plan to end them, except to return fire, with results we know. The people who don’t want the regulations that we know will help curb (not end) violent acts and help make them rare (not non-existent) have reconciled themselves to the mass murder of police officers, as well as of innocent men and women during traffic stops and of long, ghostly rows of harmless civilians and helpless children. The country is now clearly divided among those who want the killings and violence to stop and those who don’t. In the words of the old activist song, which side are you on?
Seeing that black police officer twisted in tears just hurts so much to see. How awful he must feel.
posted by rhythm_queen at 1:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhythm_queen at 1:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
They are trained to take control of a situation. That can be interpreted as trained to be the "dominant alpha".
Compare the stereotypical Bobby's "Here, here. What's this all about?" and the screaming of a big city American cop. That's the difference between asserting authority and being an ass.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Compare the stereotypical Bobby's "Here, here. What's this all about?" and the screaming of a big city American cop. That's the difference between asserting authority and being an ass.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
why the tweet [calling hughes a suspect] was still online. "Because we're keeping it on there," came the reply.One of the worst of the many failings of the English language is that we have a single word which means both "due to what cause" and "in service of what aim".
No elementary school curriculum should be complete without an explanation of the distinction. While we're at it, we should make sure that "Fallacy of Equivocation" is a component of the critical thinking textbooks for middle schools. Finally, maybe "how to get a dangerously irresponsible PR flack fired" could be squeezed into a high school course? At least an elective.
posted by roystgnr at 1:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
5 things you need to know about the Dallas shooting suspect...
Ugh. He is not just ex-military. That makes him sound like he protested his duties, betrayed his country and did not serve. He is a war VETERAN. He is a black male veteran who is an example of the ways our country lets both black men and veterans down. We need to provide more support to our soldiers and our veterans. We need to provide more support and safety for black men and women. We need to provide more support, training, and safety to our professional officers. We need more doctors, social workers, educators, oversight, accountability, gun regulation. This man made the wrong and horrific choice, but being an attacker does not exclude him from also being a victim.
posted by soundproof at 1:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
Ugh. He is not just ex-military. That makes him sound like he protested his duties, betrayed his country and did not serve. He is a war VETERAN. He is a black male veteran who is an example of the ways our country lets both black men and veterans down. We need to provide more support to our soldiers and our veterans. We need to provide more support and safety for black men and women. We need to provide more support, training, and safety to our professional officers. We need more doctors, social workers, educators, oversight, accountability, gun regulation. This man made the wrong and horrific choice, but being an attacker does not exclude him from also being a victim.
posted by soundproof at 1:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
So let's talk about the history of the phrase. It's been used in protests since at least the 1970's, and I'm nearly positive that it originates in a speech given by Martin Luther King, Jr., on December 14, 1967
Considering his schooling/profession, it's entirely possible his phrase originates in the axiomatic biblical association of justice with peace in Isaiah 32:17 that 'the product of justice (tzedakah) shall be peace (shalom)'.
posted by perhapsolutely at 1:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
Considering his schooling/profession, it's entirely possible his phrase originates in the axiomatic biblical association of justice with peace in Isaiah 32:17 that 'the product of justice (tzedakah) shall be peace (shalom)'.
posted by perhapsolutely at 1:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
> Compare the stereotypical Bobby's "Here, here. What's this all about?" and the screaming of a big city American cop. That's the difference between asserting authority and being an ass.
One of the ways I feel really alienated from my country is this tendency to mistake bluster for power. I don't know where it started, and I don't know why it started — it seems somewhat new to me — but Americans really do think that yelling and chestpounding is a way to express power. I don't get it at all — it absolutely reads as weakness to me — but on the whole we really do think that calmness and levelheadedness are signs of weakness, and that hotheaded aggression is a sign of power rather than like a sign of loss of insecurity/loss of control.
It seems totally backwards to me, but apparently that's how we do things here now.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [43 favorites]
One of the ways I feel really alienated from my country is this tendency to mistake bluster for power. I don't know where it started, and I don't know why it started — it seems somewhat new to me — but Americans really do think that yelling and chestpounding is a way to express power. I don't get it at all — it absolutely reads as weakness to me — but on the whole we really do think that calmness and levelheadedness are signs of weakness, and that hotheaded aggression is a sign of power rather than like a sign of loss of insecurity/loss of control.
It seems totally backwards to me, but apparently that's how we do things here now.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [43 favorites]
(likely my inability to read sloppy hotheaded aggression as power is key to my inability to understand Trump's appeal...)
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
So if there is one shooter who is now dead, then have the 3 others taken into custody been released? The PD should let the world know that.
(Note: I'm not calling for identification of the 3 who are/were in custody, no one needs that info at the best of times and given what happened to open-carry guy, this is not the best of times in that context).
posted by lalochezia at 2:03 PM on July 8, 2016
(Note: I'm not calling for identification of the 3 who are/were in custody, no one needs that info at the best of times and given what happened to open-carry guy, this is not the best of times in that context).
posted by lalochezia at 2:03 PM on July 8, 2016
(likely my inability to read sloppy hotheaded aggression as power is key to my inability to understand Trump's appeal...)
"Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing."
"What the hell are you talking about?" Yossarian shouted at her in bewildered, furious protest. "How did you know it was Catch-22? Who the hell told you it was Catch-22?"
"The soldiers with the hard white hats and clubs. The girls were crying. 'Did we do anything wrong?' they said. The men said no and pushed them away out the door with the ends of their clubs. 'Then why are you chasing us out?' the girls said. 'Catch 22,' the men said. All they kept saying was 'Catch-22, Catch-22. What does it mean, Catch 22? What is Catch-22?"
"Didn't they show it to you?" Yossarian demanded, stamping about in anger and distress. "Didn't you even make them read it?" "They don't have to show us Catch-22," the old woman answered. "The law says they don't have to."
"What law says they don't have to?" "Catch-22."
posted by delfin at 2:03 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing."
"What the hell are you talking about?" Yossarian shouted at her in bewildered, furious protest. "How did you know it was Catch-22? Who the hell told you it was Catch-22?"
"The soldiers with the hard white hats and clubs. The girls were crying. 'Did we do anything wrong?' they said. The men said no and pushed them away out the door with the ends of their clubs. 'Then why are you chasing us out?' the girls said. 'Catch 22,' the men said. All they kept saying was 'Catch-22, Catch-22. What does it mean, Catch 22? What is Catch-22?"
"Didn't they show it to you?" Yossarian demanded, stamping about in anger and distress. "Didn't you even make them read it?" "They don't have to show us Catch-22," the old woman answered. "The law says they don't have to."
"What law says they don't have to?" "Catch-22."
posted by delfin at 2:03 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
The Dallas Police finally took Hughes' picture down off their Twitter feed. Or rather, it's gone - I don't know if they removed it or Twitter did or what.
posted by cashman at 2:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by cashman at 2:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
the axiomatic biblical association of justice with peace in Isaiah 32:17
Which itself is probably a derivative of Psalm 85:
I will listen to what God the Lord says;
he promises peace to his people, his faithful servants—
but let them not turn to folly.
Surely his salvation is near those who fear him,
that his glory may dwell in our land.
Love and faithfulness meet together;
righteousness and peace kiss each other.
Faithfulness springs forth from the earth,
and righteousness looks down from heaven.
The Lord will indeed give what is good,
and our land will yield its harvest.
Righteousness goes before him
and prepares the way for his steps.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Which itself is probably a derivative of Psalm 85:
I will listen to what God the Lord says;
he promises peace to his people, his faithful servants—
but let them not turn to folly.
Surely his salvation is near those who fear him,
that his glory may dwell in our land.
Love and faithfulness meet together;
righteousness and peace kiss each other.
Faithfulness springs forth from the earth,
and righteousness looks down from heaven.
The Lord will indeed give what is good,
and our land will yield its harvest.
Righteousness goes before him
and prepares the way for his steps.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
The one linked from the mashable article is 404'ing for me, at least.
posted by lkc at 2:08 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by lkc at 2:08 PM on July 8, 2016
Oh, sorry, looks like it's in my cache.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Leaving this here in case it's helpful to anyone who is struggling: 4 Self-Care Resources for Days When the World is Terrible
posted by soonertbone at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by soonertbone at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
One Simple Change to the Law Could Make Prosecuting Killer Cops Easier
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
From the DPD: investigative update. Not too much new information, although it does state that the suspect was a "loner" which seems to contradict everything else we've heard. Unless they meant it as a personality description, it's a little unclear.
posted by perplexion at 2:10 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by perplexion at 2:10 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it will turn out he was acting alone and all the coordination stuff will turn out to be fog of war mistakes and miscommunication.
posted by Justinian at 2:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 2:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
From the Stranger: Seattle police union blames "minority movement" for last night's Dallas shootings.
Jesus fucking Christ. Not only does SPOG blame a "minority movement," they appropriate We Shall Overcome in doing so. Sick.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Jesus fucking Christ. Not only does SPOG blame a "minority movement," they appropriate We Shall Overcome in doing so. Sick.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Wait, what the hell does Professor Griff have to do with this?
posted by lkc at 2:16 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by lkc at 2:16 PM on July 8, 2016
What the hell does this mean: "The suspect’s Facebook account included the following names and information: Fahed Hassen, Richard GRIFFIN aka Professor Griff, GRIFFIN embraces a radical form of Afrocentrism, and GRIFFIN wrote a book A Warriors Tapestry."
posted by threeturtles at 2:17 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by threeturtles at 2:17 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hit post too quick. From the "investigative update":
The suspect’s Facebook account included the following names and information: Fahed Hassen, Richard GRIFFIN aka Professor Griff, GRIFFIN embraces a radical form of Afrocentrism, and GRIFFIN wrote a book A Warriors Tapestry.
posted by lkc at 2:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The suspect’s Facebook account included the following names and information: Fahed Hassen, Richard GRIFFIN aka Professor Griff, GRIFFIN embraces a radical form of Afrocentrism, and GRIFFIN wrote a book A Warriors Tapestry.
posted by lkc at 2:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait, what the hell does Professor Griff have to do with this?
The shooter, Michah Johnson, can be seen in a photo with him on his Facebook page...which has been updated, to make it private, so the public can no longer see the photos.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:20 PM on July 8, 2016
The shooter, Michah Johnson, can be seen in a photo with him on his Facebook page...which has been updated, to make it private, so the public can no longer see the photos.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:20 PM on July 8, 2016
odinsdream, where is this happening?
posted by Existential Dread at 2:21 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 2:21 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
just observing dispassionately
It's the Black Lives [Don't] Matter movement. Also known as the status quo.
posted by klanawa at 2:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's the Black Lives [Don't] Matter movement. Also known as the status quo.
posted by klanawa at 2:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oddly enough, now the original Mashable article complaining about the DPD tweet is out of date. Wonder how long it'll take them to update it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It happened last night, right? the video I posted is what you are referring to?
posted by futz at 2:23 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by futz at 2:23 PM on July 8, 2016
I mean, is Fahed Hassan anyone of any relevance or did they just literally say "well he has a FB friend with an Arabic name"?
posted by threeturtles at 2:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by threeturtles at 2:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think people are confused because you are posting and reacting as though it is happening in real time.
posted by futz at 2:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by futz at 2:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
Oh boy. I'm sure some rather ridiculous portrayals of the S1Ws are coming.
posted by cashman at 2:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cashman at 2:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oddly enough, now the original Mashable article complaining about the DPD tweet is out of date.
No, it's not:
No, it's not:
UPDATE July 8 2:19 PT - The tweet has now been deleted.posted by Lexica at 2:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ambulances not coming to Black neighborhoods in a timely fashion is a real common thing, common enough that a group of nurses here in Oakland have set up an organization called People's Community Medics.
I'm sure the first responders not responding to the hit and run victims think they're making a really clever point. And, well, maybe they are. Maybe, no fooling, we (for values of "we" now including white people) can't rely on them anymore, and have to look elsewhere when we need help.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:28 PM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm sure the first responders not responding to the hit and run victims think they're making a really clever point. And, well, maybe they are. Maybe, no fooling, we (for values of "we" now including white people) can't rely on them anymore, and have to look elsewhere when we need help.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:28 PM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think it will turn out he was acting alone and all the coordination stuff will turn out to be fog of war mistakes and miscommunication.
Quite probable, but much like so many of the other norms that have been broken in our sociopolitical life in the last six months it represents a real ratcheting up of the tension between the races.
The political imagination in these United States now encompasses the idea of a gun battle between black and brown protestors and white police officers, not as some feverish race war fantasy/wankfest but as something that could happen, like, next Tuesday. This hasn't been the case ever in my lifetime.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:29 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Quite probable, but much like so many of the other norms that have been broken in our sociopolitical life in the last six months it represents a real ratcheting up of the tension between the races.
The political imagination in these United States now encompasses the idea of a gun battle between black and brown protestors and white police officers, not as some feverish race war fantasy/wankfest but as something that could happen, like, next Tuesday. This hasn't been the case ever in my lifetime.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:29 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Blacklivesmatter.com addresses the events in Dallas.
posted by dysh at 2:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by dysh at 2:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm sure the first responders not responding to the hit and run victims think they're making a really clever point. And, well, maybe they are. Maybe, no fooling, we (for values of "we" now including white people) can't rely on them anymore, and have to look elsewhere when we need help.
I wonder what happens when people decide to start setting up parallel justice systems, too.
posted by indubitable at 2:33 PM on July 8, 2016
I wonder what happens when people decide to start setting up parallel justice systems, too.
posted by indubitable at 2:33 PM on July 8, 2016
I wonder what happens when people decide to start setting up parallel justice systems, too.
That is what is happening now. This is what it looks like.
posted by klanawa at 2:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
That is what is happening now. This is what it looks like.
posted by klanawa at 2:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [23 favorites]
You mean like they've already set up parallel schools, churches, neighborhoods, entire cities?
Yeah. It's happening.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah. It's happening.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
> I wonder what happens when people decide to start setting up parallel justice systems, too.
given historical precedents, I'd guess that it goes okay for a little while, but then there's a bloody civil war, and some purges, and then there's mass famine, and then eventually a dictator takes over and sets up a cult of personality and does some more purges, and then everything stays sucky for a real long time.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
given historical precedents, I'd guess that it goes okay for a little while, but then there's a bloody civil war, and some purges, and then there's mass famine, and then eventually a dictator takes over and sets up a cult of personality and does some more purges, and then everything stays sucky for a real long time.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wonder what happens when people decide to start setting up parallel justice systems, too.
Not only has that already happened, I think they get dismantled with far more deliberate speed than other parallel systems people have setup over the years.
posted by zachlipton at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not only has that already happened, I think they get dismantled with far more deliberate speed than other parallel systems people have setup over the years.
posted by zachlipton at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I sort of meant less of the "separate but equal" sense and more of the "what arises to fill the vacuum" sense.
posted by indubitable at 2:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 2:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
While hardly the most pressing thing in the past few days, that is fucking criminal in a number of different ways if true and had better be investigated and prosecuted.
posted by ctmf at 2:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 2:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
what arises to fill the vacuum"
Oh. Yeah, it's neofeudalism. That's the word you're looking for.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh. Yeah, it's neofeudalism. That's the word you're looking for.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
if we have to do neofeudalism can we at least get sigils?
three plates of beans saltant on a field of blue
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:48 PM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
three plates of beans saltant on a field of blue
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:48 PM on July 8, 2016 [25 favorites]
Re: the assassination by robot
Given what we know, I have no problem with how DPD resolved this.
Also with the "given what we know" caveat, I absolutely do. A guy holed up in a parking garage with a gun by himself, surrounded by police, is not imminently dangerous. One option is waiting. It's now on the police to show that waiting or any other course of action not requiring deadly force would have been unacceptable.
While I sympathize with the "they just lost 10 men, give them a break" theory... No. The rules of deadly force (to the extent that DPD even has any) don't allow for "but I was angry."
posted by ctmf at 2:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [56 favorites]
Given what we know, I have no problem with how DPD resolved this.
Also with the "given what we know" caveat, I absolutely do. A guy holed up in a parking garage with a gun by himself, surrounded by police, is not imminently dangerous. One option is waiting. It's now on the police to show that waiting or any other course of action not requiring deadly force would have been unacceptable.
While I sympathize with the "they just lost 10 men, give them a break" theory... No. The rules of deadly force (to the extent that DPD even has any) don't allow for "but I was angry."
posted by ctmf at 2:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [56 favorites]
Saltant beans. I see what you did.
posted by perhapsolutely at 2:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by perhapsolutely at 2:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
> Saltant beans. I see what you did.
nah, you're overthinking it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
nah, you're overthinking it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
I'm sure the first responders not responding to the hit and run victims think they're making a really clever point. And, well, maybe they are. Maybe, no fooling, we (for values of "we" now including white people) can't rely on them anymore, and have to look elsewhere when we need help.
For what it's worth, "What to do Instead of Calling the Police" seems like a good round up of strategies for doing this in the case of the police in particular.
posted by invitapriore at 2:57 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
For what it's worth, "What to do Instead of Calling the Police" seems like a good round up of strategies for doing this in the case of the police in particular.
posted by invitapriore at 2:57 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
For anyone feeling overwhelmed emotionally by events of the last few days, please give yourself permission to take a break from breaking news, the internet, and/or social media for as long as you feel you are able, whether it be for the rest of the day, a few hours, or even just 45 minutes. We sometimes forget that we have the option to unplug from the stream of noise and unpleasantness for a little while, if only to unwind for a bit and recharge our batteries.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:00 PM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:00 PM on July 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
"what arises to fill the vacuum" sense
I don't think this and de jure segregation are meaningfully different. Most of the segregation that still exists today came about as a "what arises to fill the vacuum" when white people would not treat black people as human. The white real estate establishment* won't work with black people, so ghettos result. White church leaders exclude black worshippers, so churches are segregated. White-run universities won't admit black students, so Historically Black Colleges spring up. Even a lot of the old de jure Jim Crow segregation probably falls into this category, of resourceful African-Americans providing for their own in the face of a white supremacist society.
I'll put my own body on the line before I let us go back there.
*I started with "white landlords" and then remembered redlining, I went to "white realtors" and then remembered restrictive covenants, so this is the best I could do.
posted by Sara C. at 3:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think this and de jure segregation are meaningfully different. Most of the segregation that still exists today came about as a "what arises to fill the vacuum" when white people would not treat black people as human. The white real estate establishment* won't work with black people, so ghettos result. White church leaders exclude black worshippers, so churches are segregated. White-run universities won't admit black students, so Historically Black Colleges spring up. Even a lot of the old de jure Jim Crow segregation probably falls into this category, of resourceful African-Americans providing for their own in the face of a white supremacist society.
I'll put my own body on the line before I let us go back there.
*I started with "white landlords" and then remembered redlining, I went to "white realtors" and then remembered restrictive covenants, so this is the best I could do.
posted by Sara C. at 3:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also with the "given what we know" caveat, I absolutely do. A guy holed up in a parking garage with a gun by himself, surrounded by police, is not imminently dangerous. One option is waiting. It's now on the police to show that waiting or any other course of action not requiring deadly force would have been unacceptable.
well, they thought he had bombs.
posted by zutalors! at 3:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Did they think he could and would remotely trigger them in non-secured places to blow up more people? We don't know, but simply having a couple of pipe bombs in his pocket doesn't count.
posted by ctmf at 3:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 3:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, having planted timed bombs (not under his control) elsewhere doesn't count. In fact, that's more reason to take him alive and/or negotiate to find out where the bombs are.
posted by ctmf at 3:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 3:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's now on the police to show that waiting or any other course of action not requiring deadly force would have been unacceptable.
Yeah, good luck with that. There probably isn't a court in the land and very few groups that are going to publicly second guess the DPD over this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:28 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, good luck with that. There probably isn't a court in the land and very few groups that are going to publicly second guess the DPD over this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:28 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I started with "white landlords" and then remembered redlining, I went to "white realtors" and then remembered restrictive covenants, so this is the best I could do."
Redlining had nothing to do with realtors or with individuals selectively refusing service/homes to blacks; redlining was a Federal Housing Administration practice beginning in 1934 (and continuing until the Fair Housing Act of 1968 and various follow-on legislation that ensured enforcement) that refused to insure mortgage loans to homebuyers in predominantly black neighborhoods or racially-mixed neighborhoods, which were deemed bad credit risks by the FHA primarily because of their racial makeup. The FHA informed banks and municipalities it would not insure loans in mixed-race neighborhoods and recommended racially-restrictive zoning ordinances for cities that wanted access to federal insurance for home loans.
It was considerably more pernicious and systematic than "realtors." Racial ghettos are not a result of low-level individual racist decisions; they are a deliberate federal policy pursued for 40 years to segregate blacks and strip them of housing wealth.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:32 PM on July 8, 2016 [77 favorites]
Redlining had nothing to do with realtors or with individuals selectively refusing service/homes to blacks; redlining was a Federal Housing Administration practice beginning in 1934 (and continuing until the Fair Housing Act of 1968 and various follow-on legislation that ensured enforcement) that refused to insure mortgage loans to homebuyers in predominantly black neighborhoods or racially-mixed neighborhoods, which were deemed bad credit risks by the FHA primarily because of their racial makeup. The FHA informed banks and municipalities it would not insure loans in mixed-race neighborhoods and recommended racially-restrictive zoning ordinances for cities that wanted access to federal insurance for home loans.
It was considerably more pernicious and systematic than "realtors." Racial ghettos are not a result of low-level individual racist decisions; they are a deliberate federal policy pursued for 40 years to segregate blacks and strip them of housing wealth.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:32 PM on July 8, 2016 [77 favorites]
I think they thought he had IEDs with him that he would blow up and I think they thought that based on things he said. i think they thought if they went in after him, he would trigger the IEDs and blow up a lot more cops along with himself.
I'm not saying all of that is true and they can't possibly be lying or anything like that, but it's a completely plausible scenario to me and I can understand actions taken under that version of events.
posted by zutalors! at 3:34 PM on July 8, 2016
I'm not saying all of that is true and they can't possibly be lying or anything like that, but it's a completely plausible scenario to me and I can understand actions taken under that version of events.
posted by zutalors! at 3:34 PM on July 8, 2016
Is there an established timeline of events? Like did they proceed to blow him up after the sweeps confirmed that there were no bombs planted in the area?
posted by numaner at 3:43 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by numaner at 3:43 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I Googled for a text source for the video about a car deliberately driving through a Ferguson protest that odinsdream was watching, and it wasn't immediately obvious whether it was the one from 2014, the one from 2015, or the one from 2016. Jesus.
posted by clawsoon at 3:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 3:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
I think they thought he had IEDs with him that he would blow up and I think they thought that based on things he said. i think they thought if they went in after him, he would trigger the IEDs and blow up a lot more cops along with himself.
Frankly, if they can drive a robot up to him and kill him with explosives, they can drive a robot up to him with non-lethal arms as well. Incapacitating tear gas, a taser, etc. If the non-lethal arms don't to the trick, then they're still in the same position as they would have been without a bomb on a bot. If the suspect leaves his shelter to attack, they have an overwhelming arsenal at hand to deal death. If not, then they can rely on the tools they have up to this point: negotiation, isolation, and patience. If the suspect has hostages, damn I would hope they wouldn't use robot-based explosives because of significant risk of collateral damage and death.
The most troubling aspect here to me is that the police have a track record of turning non-lethal force into tools for compliance, and resorting to lethal force as a first resort where non-lethal force might have been appropriate. If they are enabled to use robots to kill, expect a lot more uses of lethal force on suspects not proven to be guilty (see also our military drone program). I find this a deeply troubling escalation.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Frankly, if they can drive a robot up to him and kill him with explosives, they can drive a robot up to him with non-lethal arms as well. Incapacitating tear gas, a taser, etc. If the non-lethal arms don't to the trick, then they're still in the same position as they would have been without a bomb on a bot. If the suspect leaves his shelter to attack, they have an overwhelming arsenal at hand to deal death. If not, then they can rely on the tools they have up to this point: negotiation, isolation, and patience. If the suspect has hostages, damn I would hope they wouldn't use robot-based explosives because of significant risk of collateral damage and death.
The most troubling aspect here to me is that the police have a track record of turning non-lethal force into tools for compliance, and resorting to lethal force as a first resort where non-lethal force might have been appropriate. If they are enabled to use robots to kill, expect a lot more uses of lethal force on suspects not proven to be guilty (see also our military drone program). I find this a deeply troubling escalation.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
yeah the lethal robot thing is no doubt a problem. I just think "oh it was probably just pipe bombs" or "people are watching too many video games" is just making too many assumptions about what some people on internets would totally do if they were DPD.
posted by zutalors! at 3:58 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 3:58 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't see the bomb robot as any different than a drone strike on our own soil - The only difference between the bomb robot and a drone is speed and altitude. It wasn't self defense, it was an execution. That is not justice, and it is not anything that we should accept from those that we task with enforcing law and order in our communities. Shooting the police does not and should not give them freedom to resort to questionable wartime tactics - We MUST hold them to a different and significantly higher standard than this.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:00 PM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:00 PM on July 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
Returning to an earlier topic, briefly: I'm no huge fan of Jacobin, but they've got a great article about why police 'unions' are bad over here. Cops are the enforcement arm of capitalism and white supremacy. They are fundamentally management, NOT labor, not even those cops who claim to be "working class". Unions are not for cops.
Also:
.
(For the poor DART officer.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
Also:
.
(For the poor DART officer.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm willing to entertain the idea that taking out the shooter in the way they did was justified, from an innocent-until-proven-guilty standpoint. But I would like the question of whether they were justified to be answered, definitively, in a setting where all the evidence is present and can be weighed appropriately, and both the evidence and the result are a matter of public record.
I'm describing a trial, obviously.
The whole idea of trial by jury is a check on the power of the State, as embodied in the officers of who enforce the Laws of the State. We already have a system -- however imperfect and biased toward the police -- for this kind of accountability, but we need to be using it a lot more broadly than we are.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm describing a trial, obviously.
The whole idea of trial by jury is a check on the power of the State, as embodied in the officers of who enforce the Laws of the State. We already have a system -- however imperfect and biased toward the police -- for this kind of accountability, but we need to be using it a lot more broadly than we are.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also, the police citing details from the guy's Facebook is a bullshit move. Fuck that.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 4:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
See literally all the comments upthread before the Dallas shootings began. The police in this country have not remotely earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to claims that lethal force was necessary. And this was not the usual split-second decision we're usually told we can't second guess because we don't know what it's like. This was a conscious and considered decision for extrajudicial killing in the name of public safety. Maybe there truly was no other alternative, and they should, not today, but in a considered and logical way, have to lay out why and convince people of that. But yes, it is on the police to justify whey they purposefully exploded even a murderer.
posted by zachlipton at 4:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 4:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
"It wasn't self defense, it was an execution."
This is really at the heart of the matter for me: police are not supposed to be judge, jury and executioner. They're supposed defuse situations, apprehend possible perpetrators, if necessary, and let the judicial branch sort things out. You don't get to be a police officer and somehow expect to not have to take any risks. You want that power and authority? You must accept the risk that comes with having to sort out a situation without engaging in an arms race. This is law enforcement, not war. A police officers primary objective when dealing with an armed suspect should be to apprehend them alive, not to match or exceed firepower and kill them.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 4:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
This is really at the heart of the matter for me: police are not supposed to be judge, jury and executioner. They're supposed defuse situations, apprehend possible perpetrators, if necessary, and let the judicial branch sort things out. You don't get to be a police officer and somehow expect to not have to take any risks. You want that power and authority? You must accept the risk that comes with having to sort out a situation without engaging in an arms race. This is law enforcement, not war. A police officers primary objective when dealing with an armed suspect should be to apprehend them alive, not to match or exceed firepower and kill them.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 4:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
Existential Dread, that's what I was saying earlier-- why couldn't they use something less lethal. I am also very disturbed by this decision to use the robot in a new way. This is just the beginning and I'm sure all the major cities are going to follow suit unless there is a real public outcry. The problem is that few people want to stand up for a cop killer and nuance gets left in the dust (I'm not standing up for a cop killer, I am standing up for all the future victims of this new police tool.) Remember how tasers were supposed to cut down on fatalities?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't see the bomb robot as any different than a drone strike on our own soil
It isn't necessarily different. But drone strikes on US soil are illegal because of posse comitatus not because of anything intrinsic to drone strikes. Not that any of us want to see even more militarized police departments running around with armed drones, obviously.
I'm torn on this one. Would the police have been justified in hand-throwing a grenade at this guy in this situation? If they would have been, I'm not sure the fact that a robot did the throwing should matter that much. But I'm not sure they would have been justified in throwing a grenade at him if he was just holed up and not actively engaged in a firefight.
It really depends on what precisely was occurring when they did it and what they knew about the situation.
posted by Justinian at 4:19 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
It isn't necessarily different. But drone strikes on US soil are illegal because of posse comitatus not because of anything intrinsic to drone strikes. Not that any of us want to see even more militarized police departments running around with armed drones, obviously.
I'm torn on this one. Would the police have been justified in hand-throwing a grenade at this guy in this situation? If they would have been, I'm not sure the fact that a robot did the throwing should matter that much. But I'm not sure they would have been justified in throwing a grenade at him if he was just holed up and not actively engaged in a firefight.
It really depends on what precisely was occurring when they did it and what they knew about the situation.
posted by Justinian at 4:19 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, "What to do Instead of Calling the Police" seems like a good round up of strategies for doing this in the case of the police in particular.
Thanks, this looks great.
posted by threeants at 4:21 PM on July 8, 2016
Thanks, this looks great.
posted by threeants at 4:21 PM on July 8, 2016
To put it another way, Governor Abbott said tonight that Micah Johnson has "received his justice." He was killed by the police. It may well have been necessary self-defense, I'll hear that argument certainly, but it sure as heck wasn't justice. I just came from jury duty today and watched the usual sappy video about how we "can't have justice without u."
It was maybe, maybe the best they could do, but let's not confuse "we tried" with justice. Nobody, police or shooter, who died last night in Dallas got anything that resembles justice.
posted by zachlipton at 4:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
It was maybe, maybe the best they could do, but let's not confuse "we tried" with justice. Nobody, police or shooter, who died last night in Dallas got anything that resembles justice.
posted by zachlipton at 4:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
Hell, I suspect the government would argue that military drone strikes in the US aren't even illegal if they are used in anti-terrorism operations and not for policing. It's a brave new world out there.
posted by Justinian at 4:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
A timeline and transcript of what happened in the garage should be released to the public, at a minimum.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't understand what leverage the shooter is supposed to have had to even theoretically present the need to kill him in order to save others? There were no hostages; he was one guy; it sounds like he could have been physically contained.
posted by threeants at 4:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by threeants at 4:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Was this actually a robot? I think it was a remote-controlled device which isn't a robot. A robot needs to be able to operate autonomously, no? Otherwise my remote controlled Tonka truck I had as a kid was a robot.
posted by Justinian at 4:26 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by Justinian at 4:26 PM on July 8, 2016
I don't understand what leverage the shooter is supposed to have had to even theoretically present the need to kill him in order to save others?
The rationale is that attempting to capture him would put officers at risk, due to close contact with someone who's claimed to want to kill them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:29 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
The rationale is that attempting to capture him would put officers at risk, due to close contact with someone who's claimed to want to kill them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:29 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm just gonna go out on a limb and predict that Johnny Q. Self-Identifies-As-"Moderate" Public will see bomb robots as a very wise, safe, and effective way of taking out shooters in standoff situations and hey if it diffuses responsibility for extrajudicial police killings over an entire department and organizational structure instead of an individual cop that's just a cool bonus innit so bottom line this is probably not gonna be the last person blown up by a bomb robot
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:31 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
The counter argument is that they could have starved/waited him out. The counter-counter argument is that once he got hungry/tired he would have attacked the cops and possibly injured or killed more people so this counts as self-defense as he refused to surrender.
posted by Justinian at 4:32 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:32 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
How does a police force have a bomb robot but not, like, the means by which to non-lethally immobilize a single shooter? Then again, maybe he "looked like a demon."
posted by threeants at 4:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by threeants at 4:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Verge: Bomb disposal robots, though, have emerged as a flexible tool for law enforcement, particularly SWAT teams. In April, members of the California Highway Patrol used a bomb disposal robot to deliver a pizza to a suspect, effectively ending a standoff. And in 2013, a SWAT team in Albuquerque used their bot to remove the blanket from a suicidal individual barricaded in his room, checking whether or not he was armed. (No weapon was found and a SWAT team took him into custody.)
-
this incident raises a number of practical considerations. These include the decreased usefulness of such robots as negotiators. If suspects fear them as potential assassins, why bother to talk to the police at the other end?
For now, while waiting for details, I'm thinking this was an extraordinary circumstance and I'll cut the cops some slack here. But in general, yeah, using bomb disposal robots to kill people is a really bad idea.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
-
this incident raises a number of practical considerations. These include the decreased usefulness of such robots as negotiators. If suspects fear them as potential assassins, why bother to talk to the police at the other end?
For now, while waiting for details, I'm thinking this was an extraordinary circumstance and I'll cut the cops some slack here. But in general, yeah, using bomb disposal robots to kill people is a really bad idea.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
the evolution of off-label uses of bomb disposal robots is pretty fucking depressing
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
You know maybe if we didn't glorify guns so fucking much in this country and let large sections of the population have weapons of mass killing with relatively little oversight or friction then maybe the police wouldn't have to use robot drones with bombs to execute suspects.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
How does a police force have a bomb robot
They put an explosive on one of their search robots.
posted by zutalors! at 4:35 PM on July 8, 2016
They put an explosive on one of their search robots.
posted by zutalors! at 4:35 PM on July 8, 2016
Hmm, you know, I immediately regretted making that "like a demon" reference. Even though I despise extrajudicial killings, there's a meaningful difference between an active sniper who (seems to have) killed 5 people and a teenager executed for shoplifting and like, woah, let's not allow the craziness to let us forget that, and I'm sorry I did.
posted by threeants at 4:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by threeants at 4:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Brandon Blatcher I find that rationale to be lacking.
The police in America are far too eager to use deadly force, far too eager to kill someone.
Yes, the person in question was undoubtedly a bad person. But he was a **CONTAINED** bad person, and in the USA we aren't supposed to just summarily execute even very bad people. They could have just waited him out. Boredom or thirst would have driven him out of his hiding place in a few hours.
They could even have used tear gas. Though I'll not the international treaty forbids it from being used in war, so the idea that police can or should use it on civilians seems deeply wrong to me.
posted by sotonohito at 4:38 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
The police in America are far too eager to use deadly force, far too eager to kill someone.
Yes, the person in question was undoubtedly a bad person. But he was a **CONTAINED** bad person, and in the USA we aren't supposed to just summarily execute even very bad people. They could have just waited him out. Boredom or thirst would have driven him out of his hiding place in a few hours.
They could even have used tear gas. Though I'll not the international treaty forbids it from being used in war, so the idea that police can or should use it on civilians seems deeply wrong to me.
posted by sotonohito at 4:38 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
It just occurred to me: If he was holed up in the parking garage, how were they negotiating with him? Did they do it by robot? If so, the implication is that they anticipated assassinating him by explosive before the negotiations even began.
posted by constantinescharity at 4:42 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by constantinescharity at 4:42 PM on July 8, 2016
They could even have used tear gas.
And he could've come out shooting.
I'm not second guessing DPD on this. My only concern is where the precedent will be taken by other departments.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
And he could've come out shooting.
I'm not second guessing DPD on this. My only concern is where the precedent will be taken by other departments.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
They could even have used tear gas.
Honest question: what would tear gas have done in this situation to ensure that the shooter was down, with zero risk to any officer?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Honest question: what would tear gas have done in this situation to ensure that the shooter was down, with zero risk to any officer?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
An update on shootings of police officers in Missouri, Georgia, and Tennessee today.
posted by zachlipton at 4:46 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 4:46 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tear gas would have caused him to come out shooting, yes. I don't see what it would have done except make the situation worse.
posted by Justinian at 4:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 4:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Even gassing the guy with fentanyl like the Russians did during the 2002 Moscow theater massacre would have been less irresponsible than just blowing up someone who was already cornered.
posted by indubitable at 4:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 4:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
From zacklipton's link above: "Asked about the death of suspect Micah Johnson – in what appears to be the first known case of lethal force by a bomb-disposal robot – Dallas mayor Mike Rawlings said that officers tried to arrest him alive:
"This was a man we gave plenty of options to. He had a choice to come out and we would not harm or he could stay and we would. He picked the latter.""
For what it's worth.
posted by threeturtles at 4:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
"This was a man we gave plenty of options to. He had a choice to come out and we would not harm or he could stay and we would. He picked the latter.""
For what it's worth.
posted by threeturtles at 4:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fentanyl or other knockout gases only work in contained areas; a parking garage is not that. I'm not sure it's even legal to use fentanyl here?
posted by Justinian at 4:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 4:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it legal to use the robot this way? Serious question.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 4:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Here's the most detailed timeline I've found of the entire situation.
There's still very little about what went on in the El Centro College garage, where the shooter, Micah Johnson, holed up and was eventually killed by the "bomb robot".
New York Times has some annotated images and maps of the city.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's still very little about what went on in the El Centro College garage, where the shooter, Micah Johnson, holed up and was eventually killed by the "bomb robot".
New York Times has some annotated images and maps of the city.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Police forces in my area, who practice community policing and are widely regarded as being on the progressive end of their field, have been tweeting all day about Dallas. And that itself doesn't bother me; those five people were wrongly murdered, and there is a real bond between people who share a profession. But where was the "We condemn the murder of Philando Castile" tweet? Where was the "Systemic racism is real and we want to do the best we can in our community so people of color receive full and equal protection under the law" tweet? Other disciplines recognize and take steps to correct their own failings but to be frank I've never seen someone publically speaking on behalf of a police organization express even the slightest glimmer of awareness that the solution to any problem might be situated within themselves or their practices. I'm so, so disappointed to see this. It's like there's this deep, deep line that even "the good ones" can't dare to cross.
posted by threeants at 4:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by threeants at 4:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
I'm not sure it's even legal to use fentanyl here?
is it legal to extrajudicially murder a suspect with a robot?
posted by burgerrr at 4:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
is it legal to extrajudicially murder a suspect with a robot?
posted by burgerrr at 4:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
I would really love to know how police forces in other countries would have handled the situation.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure it's even legal to use fentanyl here?
Probably not! It's also extremely hard to control the dose, which is one of the reasons a whole bunch of hostages died. And yet, less irresponsible than just bombing someone who was cornered.
posted by indubitable at 4:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Probably not! It's also extremely hard to control the dose, which is one of the reasons a whole bunch of hostages died. And yet, less irresponsible than just bombing someone who was cornered.
posted by indubitable at 4:56 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Hard cases make bad law," I've been told. This is a hard case. His effectiveness at killing seems to have played a part in the decision to send in the robot; they don't seem to have trusted their officers' ability to contain him, given that he had just proven how good a shot he was. So, okay, fine, it was a hard decision in a difficult situation, and it would be a rare jury who'd convict them.
But mix this precedent with the proverbial “first rule of law enforcement” to go home at the end of every shift, and it's easy to see the use of police killer drones gradually broadening to more and more situations where officers think they might be at risk. It's an easy solution to difficult situations, and that's potentially very bad.
posted by clawsoon at 4:57 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
But mix this precedent with the proverbial “first rule of law enforcement” to go home at the end of every shift, and it's easy to see the use of police killer drones gradually broadening to more and more situations where officers think they might be at risk. It's an easy solution to difficult situations, and that's potentially very bad.
posted by clawsoon at 4:57 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
But where was the "We condemn the murder of Philando Castile" tweet? Where was the "Systemic racism is real and we want to do the best we can in our community so people of color receive full and equal protection under the law" tweet?
I'm sitting here staring at the half-mast flag outside my government building window and I can't help but echo this sentiment; why don't we lower our flags for those unjustly killed? But on that thought, I suppose that flag would rarely have a day to be full-mast.
posted by numaner at 4:58 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm sitting here staring at the half-mast flag outside my government building window and I can't help but echo this sentiment; why don't we lower our flags for those unjustly killed? But on that thought, I suppose that flag would rarely have a day to be full-mast.
posted by numaner at 4:58 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
"! It's also extremely hard to control the dose, which is one of the reasons a whole bunch of hostages died. And yet, less irresponsible than just bombing someone who was cornered."
I'm sorry but I don't see how releasing poisonous gas that will kill a human being(and possibly spread to other locations) is somehow "less irresponsible" than a bomb.
posted by I-baLL at 5:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry but I don't see how releasing poisonous gas that will kill a human being(and possibly spread to other locations) is somehow "less irresponsible" than a bomb.
posted by I-baLL at 5:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
is it legal to extrajudicially murder a suspect with a robot?
Yes, it's legal to kill an active shooter who's refused to surrender and proclaimed his intent to kill more people.
If it comes out that he never said that and/or tried to surrender, then we have problem, oh yes. But for now that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Finally he wasn't killed with a robot, but a bomb. The robot was just the means of delivery of said bomb.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, it's legal to kill an active shooter who's refused to surrender and proclaimed his intent to kill more people.
If it comes out that he never said that and/or tried to surrender, then we have problem, oh yes. But for now that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Finally he wasn't killed with a robot, but a bomb. The robot was just the means of delivery of said bomb.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Like, the field of public health has gone from this to this.
posted by threeants at 5:01 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by threeants at 5:01 PM on July 8, 2016
is it legal to extrajudicially murder a suspect with a robot?
Well, having just looked up the local Texas laws regarding use of lethal force (due to a link way up in this thread), Texas law requires the suspect to have committed a crime using deadly force (check) or there to be a serious belief he will use deadly force on people if he is allowed to go free (check). It's necessary that the officer believes the arrest is lawful and necessary (check) and force is required to make the arrest or prevent escape. So, with the use of the bomb and robot aside, using lethal force in this situation seems to meet all the criteria for legality.
posted by threeturtles at 5:02 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, having just looked up the local Texas laws regarding use of lethal force (due to a link way up in this thread), Texas law requires the suspect to have committed a crime using deadly force (check) or there to be a serious belief he will use deadly force on people if he is allowed to go free (check). It's necessary that the officer believes the arrest is lawful and necessary (check) and force is required to make the arrest or prevent escape. So, with the use of the bomb and robot aside, using lethal force in this situation seems to meet all the criteria for legality.
posted by threeturtles at 5:02 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
My question is, are bombs considered an appropriate method of deadly force for police? Are there any guidelines there?
posted by Drinky Die at 5:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Drinky Die at 5:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess I will give up on my "it's not a robot!" crusade. I ranted about it to my brother for a minute in Steam Chat and his only reply was to send back the OLD MAN YELLS AT CLOUD jpg. Fine, everyone wins, it's a robot.
posted by Justinian at 5:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 5:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
DD: It's never been done before so I doubt there are guidelines! But clearly this is something that we should think about as a country instead of letting every podunk outfit with some dynamite and a remote controlled car figure out own their own.
posted by Justinian at 5:07 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 5:07 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry but I don't see how releasing poisonous gas that will kill a human being(and possibly spread to other locations) is somehow "less irresponsible" than a bomb.
It's less irresponsible if you're trying to incapacitate rather than kill. I read the comment as saying that "yes, it has risks but it's less likely to kill and therefore more responsible."
posted by AFABulous at 5:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's less irresponsible if you're trying to incapacitate rather than kill. I read the comment as saying that "yes, it has risks but it's less likely to kill and therefore more responsible."
posted by AFABulous at 5:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I kind of doubt that US police agencies keep stocks of fentanyl gas on hand so maybe that's a bit of a derail?
posted by zachlipton at 5:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 5:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
If we believe the DPD, which I'm fine having doubts about until facts are out, he was given multiple opportunities to surrender. He didn't, and he kept threatening the police. He said there were bombs, he said he intended to kill.
For folks suggesting these magical knockout gasses, real life isn't the movies. This was an open air situation and they don't work that way. Anything like that exasperates the issue.
Attaching bean bag guns, tasers, etc to a robot is not really a feasible option, especially if the guy was wearing body armor. Using what they did put no lives at risk and provided a final ultimatum. Despite what you may think, a cornered individual with nothing to lose is quite dangerous even if he is not actively shooting.
And it's not like they strapped C4 to BombBot and said "go get 'em boy". A human guided it, a human made the decision to detonate the ordinance. Would you have been OK if a sniper took him out? A sniper that guides a gun and makes a decision to pull the trigger.
I'm not saying suspected murderers should be killed on the spot, but in a situation where lives are still actively at risk I will take a solution that likely keeps the death count to 1 over more 'humane' tactics that raise the probability of more people dying.
posted by splen at 5:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
For folks suggesting these magical knockout gasses, real life isn't the movies. This was an open air situation and they don't work that way. Anything like that exasperates the issue.
Attaching bean bag guns, tasers, etc to a robot is not really a feasible option, especially if the guy was wearing body armor. Using what they did put no lives at risk and provided a final ultimatum. Despite what you may think, a cornered individual with nothing to lose is quite dangerous even if he is not actively shooting.
And it's not like they strapped C4 to BombBot and said "go get 'em boy". A human guided it, a human made the decision to detonate the ordinance. Would you have been OK if a sniper took him out? A sniper that guides a gun and makes a decision to pull the trigger.
I'm not saying suspected murderers should be killed on the spot, but in a situation where lives are still actively at risk I will take a solution that likely keeps the death count to 1 over more 'humane' tactics that raise the probability of more people dying.
posted by splen at 5:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
The Bahamas Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a travel advisory for citizens, especially young men, travelling to the United States. "Young males are asked to exercise extreme caution in affected cities in their interactions with the police. Do not be confrontational and cooperate."
posted by AFABulous at 5:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 5:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm okay with the death of an active shooter, I am not okay that they decided they had the time to go find a robot, strap explosives to it, give shooter multiple chances to surrender when as the last week shows that cops didnt have enough time to wait for an ID.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Came here to post about what a bad idea it is to weaponize robots like that, given how they're used by hostage negotiators, and saw that there's a Verge article about it. Amused/alarmed that one of the precedents given was used by the WWII German Army.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, the person in question was undoubtedly a bad person. But he was a **CONTAINED** bad person, and in the USA we aren't supposed to just summarily execute even very bad people.
Yes, absolutely this. He was contained - they should have waited him out or negotiated with him to surrender. They had him dead to rights if he came out guns blazing, no way in hell he'd manage to get his weapon to his shoulder, nevermind get off a shot. They managed to catch Some Asshole who shot up a movie theater in Colorado without killing him with a bomb-robot, and they also caught Some Asshole who shot up Cambridge and killed a cop after bombing the Boston Marathon.
There is no perfect safety if you are a police officer - this is why they are compensated generously and given vast powers over other citizens by the state. One of those powers is not summary execution by robokiller. Their job is to protect those in immediate danger and to remand criminals to the justice system for, you know, justice.
This exploding-drone bullshit was yet another extrajudicial murder of a black man.
In light of the venue the terrorist chose to attack, it's nothing short of horrible. Cooler heads should have prevailed, and they should have known better - they're paid for that.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
Yes, absolutely this. He was contained - they should have waited him out or negotiated with him to surrender. They had him dead to rights if he came out guns blazing, no way in hell he'd manage to get his weapon to his shoulder, nevermind get off a shot. They managed to catch Some Asshole who shot up a movie theater in Colorado without killing him with a bomb-robot, and they also caught Some Asshole who shot up Cambridge and killed a cop after bombing the Boston Marathon.
There is no perfect safety if you are a police officer - this is why they are compensated generously and given vast powers over other citizens by the state. One of those powers is not summary execution by robokiller. Their job is to protect those in immediate danger and to remand criminals to the justice system for, you know, justice.
This exploding-drone bullshit was yet another extrajudicial murder of a black man.
In light of the venue the terrorist chose to attack, it's nothing short of horrible. Cooler heads should have prevailed, and they should have known better - they're paid for that.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:18 PM on July 8, 2016 [21 favorites]
You can argue the situations are different but in essence they the same except for the race of the terrorists involved.
posted by edeezy at 12:23 AM on July 9 [+] [!]
Except for the five dead and seven injured people.
Other than that, exactly the same.
posted by Reggie Knoble at 5:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by edeezy at 12:23 AM on July 9 [+] [!]
Except for the five dead and seven injured people.
Other than that, exactly the same.
posted by Reggie Knoble at 5:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [20 favorites]
Obama Cuts Europe Trip Short, Will Visit Dallas Next Week
You can argue the situations were different but in essence they're the same except for the race of the terrorists involved.
They wouldn't have been there a month if they had killed five police officers on the first day.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
You can argue the situations were different but in essence they're the same except for the race of the terrorists involved.
They wouldn't have been there a month if they had killed five police officers on the first day.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
and force is required to make the arrest or prevent escape.
I'm not seeing the check on this requirement. The police chief was even quoted above as saying he had the choice to surrender and live or stay and die. "Stay" is the opposite of escape. If he chose to stay then it seems like they should have chosen to wait. And before you ask, as long as it took. Hell, play loud music at him for 3 days so he can't sleep. then turn off the music, spray a nice lavender scent and arrest him when he's sound asleep. (OK, maybe not literally that plan). The point is WAIT...there's no hurry. Let him "Stay" as long as he wants. You need to arrest him but you don't need to arrest him this minute. This do-something-now ridiculousness is exactly what got Sammy Yatim killed when they could have just closed the doors and left him in there.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:27 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm not seeing the check on this requirement. The police chief was even quoted above as saying he had the choice to surrender and live or stay and die. "Stay" is the opposite of escape. If he chose to stay then it seems like they should have chosen to wait. And before you ask, as long as it took. Hell, play loud music at him for 3 days so he can't sleep. then turn off the music, spray a nice lavender scent and arrest him when he's sound asleep. (OK, maybe not literally that plan). The point is WAIT...there's no hurry. Let him "Stay" as long as he wants. You need to arrest him but you don't need to arrest him this minute. This do-something-now ridiculousness is exactly what got Sammy Yatim killed when they could have just closed the doors and left him in there.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:27 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Some useful context here is just this year a gang of armed white men took over a federal building in Oregon and they were there for a month, threatening law enforcement the entire time. How many hours did this guy get? You can argue the situations are different but in essence they the same except for the race of the terrorists involved.
They hadn't just shot a bunch of police officers. When one of them was (allegedly) reaching for a firearm he was killed.
posted by splen at 5:27 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, the Oregon idiots didn't kill anyone. Pointless comparison.
posted by zutalors! at 5:28 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zutalors! at 5:28 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The robot is a chilling twist, but I don't think anyone disturbed by the killing of the suspect would feel differently if mode of death was different.
I dunno...Someone above asked if it would be better if he had been killed by a sniper. I think I would be bothered less if he were killed by a sniper. If it's a sniper, than I can imagine that what happened was that they had a sniper aiming at him throughout the confrontation just watching to see what he does. At some point he points a gun at somebody and the sniper or whoever gets to make the call makes the call and and it's a split-second thing because there's an immediate danger that he's going to kill somebody.
We drove our remote controlled bomb over to where he was is not a split second thing. It implies there was no imminent danger or urgency. I mean they had to get a robot, get a bomb, set up their little remote control and drive it to him at what I'm guessing is not a super-fast pace. If he were really an imminent threat this would be monstrously stupid -- he's going to see a robot coming toward him and start firing, right? that they didn't think that was the most likely outcome of driving a robot at him suggests this wasn't a we-need-to-do-something-right-now-to-save-lives thing.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
I dunno...Someone above asked if it would be better if he had been killed by a sniper. I think I would be bothered less if he were killed by a sniper. If it's a sniper, than I can imagine that what happened was that they had a sniper aiming at him throughout the confrontation just watching to see what he does. At some point he points a gun at somebody and the sniper or whoever gets to make the call makes the call and and it's a split-second thing because there's an immediate danger that he's going to kill somebody.
We drove our remote controlled bomb over to where he was is not a split second thing. It implies there was no imminent danger or urgency. I mean they had to get a robot, get a bomb, set up their little remote control and drive it to him at what I'm guessing is not a super-fast pace. If he were really an imminent threat this would be monstrously stupid -- he's going to see a robot coming toward him and start firing, right? that they didn't think that was the most likely outcome of driving a robot at him suggests this wasn't a we-need-to-do-something-right-now-to-save-lives thing.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:33 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Another consideration, if he was still in whatever sniper's nest he had created it's possible he still was potentially dangerous to anyone on the street, opposing buildings, etc.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
"They managed to catch Some Asshole who shot up a movie theater in Colorado without killing him with a bomb-robot, and they also caught Some Asshole who shot up Cambridge and killed a cop after bombing the Boston Marathon."
The Aurora shooter surrendered to the cops. One of the Boston Bombing brothers was shot multiple times by the police and then run over by his brother. The brother who hid in the boat was also shot multiple times during a gunfight with the police. What is the point of these comparisons?
posted by I-baLL at 5:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Aurora shooter surrendered to the cops. One of the Boston Bombing brothers was shot multiple times by the police and then run over by his brother. The brother who hid in the boat was also shot multiple times during a gunfight with the police. What is the point of these comparisons?
posted by I-baLL at 5:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I just now started watching "OJ: Made in America" and 20 minutes into the program the Watts Riots are shown with news reels and commentary. One dispirited black man was asked by a reporter on scene if he thought thing would ever change and the man shakes his head and says no.
The reporter then asks again, "you don't think it will ever change?". A somber head shake from the man and the same answer: no.
It is now 51 years later. fuck.
posted by futz at 5:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
The reporter then asks again, "you don't think it will ever change?". A somber head shake from the man and the same answer: no.
It is now 51 years later. fuck.
posted by futz at 5:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
Just an anecdata point-my son is a police officer. He is not at all "generously compensated", in fact he makes less than 50K a year while working nights, holidays and 3 weekends a month. His wife has to carry their health insurance because it's unaffordable through the city. His union spends 70% of their time trying to keep the city council from looting their pension fund. All while the strongly R city leaders keep cutting property and sales taxes.
Sadly, just yesterday (before this happened in Dallas) he said to my husband and I that he wished he had become a firefighter instead of a LEO because "they're always the hero and everybody loves them". And now I'm going to bow out of this thread because it seems problematic for people who can support BLM and also support law enforcement.
posted by hollygoheavy at 5:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
Sadly, just yesterday (before this happened in Dallas) he said to my husband and I that he wished he had become a firefighter instead of a LEO because "they're always the hero and everybody loves them". And now I'm going to bow out of this thread because it seems problematic for people who can support BLM and also support law enforcement.
posted by hollygoheavy at 5:36 PM on July 8, 2016 [15 favorites]
You can support law enforcement all you want. Just shove the thin blue line shit. BLM is about accountability. When police are accountable for their use of lethal force, then we can talk about their wages. Until then, I don't give a fuck about any problems cops have. They can cry me a dozen rivers.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:39 PM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 5:39 PM on July 8, 2016 [27 favorites]
Cops are killing hundreds of people each year with no meaningful oversight, and people want to talk wages. Un-fucking-believable.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 5:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
Okay, using this CNN news story I found the parking lot building. It's at 800 Main St, Dallas, TX 75202. Looking at it I don't see how the shooter was "contained" when there are open windows on every side of the building at every level of the parking garage.
posted by I-baLL at 5:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by I-baLL at 5:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
This exploding-drone bullshit was yet another extrajudicial murder of a black man.
Not really seeing a use in comparing the killing of Johnson with the killing of a small time business owner (Alton Sterling) or legal gun owner sitting in his car (Philando Castile)or pretty much another other black who hadn't just gone on a killing spree.
If he chose to stay then it seems like they should have chosen to wait.
I see little reason to give the person who's gone on a killing spree and proclaiming to do more killing many choices. Yes, at some point Johnson's life did indeed become less valuable than any police officer of SWAT team member who would have gone in to apprehend him.
Society doesn't need or even want police waiting around for someone who's shot 14 people to decide that they'll surrender on their terms.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Not really seeing a use in comparing the killing of Johnson with the killing of a small time business owner (Alton Sterling) or legal gun owner sitting in his car (Philando Castile)or pretty much another other black who hadn't just gone on a killing spree.
If he chose to stay then it seems like they should have chosen to wait.
I see little reason to give the person who's gone on a killing spree and proclaiming to do more killing many choices. Yes, at some point Johnson's life did indeed become less valuable than any police officer of SWAT team member who would have gone in to apprehend him.
Society doesn't need or even want police waiting around for someone who's shot 14 people to decide that they'll surrender on their terms.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:45 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Who are you speaking for Brandon.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's all speculation at this point I-ball. Nobody knows what went down. Was he surrounded? They said he was injured. How injured? We won't know anything for awhile. Looking at a picture of a parking garage tells nothing and offers no new insight imo.
posted by futz at 5:50 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by futz at 5:50 PM on July 8, 2016
Yes, it's legal to kill an active shooter who's refused to surrender and proclaimed his intent to kill more people.
No, he needs the intent, ability, and opportunity to kill more people. I'd argue that at that point he may or may not have had the third thing.
Look, I thing the DPD might have a strong case for needing to do that. They should have to make that case, explicitly, not just be given a pass.
posted by ctmf at 5:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
No, he needs the intent, ability, and opportunity to kill more people. I'd argue that at that point he may or may not have had the third thing.
Look, I thing the DPD might have a strong case for needing to do that. They should have to make that case, explicitly, not just be given a pass.
posted by ctmf at 5:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
hollygoheavy: And now I'm going to bow out of this thread because it seems problematic for people who can support BLM and also support law enforcement.
Someone pointed out upthread that police who protect them are exactly what BLM are asking for. Law enforcement is good. Unlawful assault and murder carried out by, or covered up by, people who are great spouses and parents and friends off-the-clock is not good. I'm no expert, but there seems to be a lot of overlap between supporting BLM and supporting good law enforcement of good laws.
posted by clawsoon at 5:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Someone pointed out upthread that police who protect them are exactly what BLM are asking for. Law enforcement is good. Unlawful assault and murder carried out by, or covered up by, people who are great spouses and parents and friends off-the-clock is not good. I'm no expert, but there seems to be a lot of overlap between supporting BLM and supporting good law enforcement of good laws.
posted by clawsoon at 5:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Given that we have literally no more information about what happened in the parking garage and aren't likely to get any today, is there any point in continuing to go back and forth on this right now?
posted by zachlipton at 5:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 5:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, at some point Johnson's life did indeed become less valuable than any police officer of SWAT team member who would have gone in to apprehend him.
I didn't say go in to apprehend him. I agree that it would not be right to ask anyone to risk their lives to do that. I said wait. Wait is not "go in and apprehend." Wait is wait. If there's no reason to think he's about to kill somebody, then there's no reason to kill him.
Look, either it's self-defence/defence of others, or it's an execution. And if no one was in immediate danger, it's not self-defence/defence of others. In my view, that makes it an execution, and I don't believe in capital punishment.
Society doesn't need or even want police waiting around for someone who's shot 14 people to decide that they'll surrender on their terms.
I basically agree. Cops shouldn't have to wait around for suspects to surrender on their own terms, but in a situation where it's either that or execute the suspect with no trial, it's the right thing to do.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I didn't say go in to apprehend him. I agree that it would not be right to ask anyone to risk their lives to do that. I said wait. Wait is not "go in and apprehend." Wait is wait. If there's no reason to think he's about to kill somebody, then there's no reason to kill him.
Look, either it's self-defence/defence of others, or it's an execution. And if no one was in immediate danger, it's not self-defence/defence of others. In my view, that makes it an execution, and I don't believe in capital punishment.
Society doesn't need or even want police waiting around for someone who's shot 14 people to decide that they'll surrender on their terms.
I basically agree. Cops shouldn't have to wait around for suspects to surrender on their own terms, but in a situation where it's either that or execute the suspect with no trial, it's the right thing to do.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Sadly, just yesterday (before this happened in Dallas) he said to my husband and I that he wished he had become a firefighter instead of a LEO because "they're always the hero and everybody loves them". And now I'm going to bow out of this thread because it seems problematic for people who can support BLM and also support law enforcement.
Let me put it this way. What I, and I think what BLM and the vast majority of people in this thread want, is for people like your son to be able to do their job well. To serve. To protect. To be the hero that comes into difficult or traumatic or even evil situations and finds the way to restore peace and to support justice.
He's not able to do that right now and neither are most of his colleagues in this country. They end up having to kill innocent people because of the way their workplace is run, the people their field does and does not value.
Black Lives Matter is the side that is calling for police and citizens to become one community, to work together. A true enforcer of the law should be standing right with them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [58 favorites]
Let me put it this way. What I, and I think what BLM and the vast majority of people in this thread want, is for people like your son to be able to do their job well. To serve. To protect. To be the hero that comes into difficult or traumatic or even evil situations and finds the way to restore peace and to support justice.
He's not able to do that right now and neither are most of his colleagues in this country. They end up having to kill innocent people because of the way their workplace is run, the people their field does and does not value.
Black Lives Matter is the side that is calling for police and citizens to become one community, to work together. A true enforcer of the law should be standing right with them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [58 favorites]
". Looking at a picture of a parking garage tells nothing and offers no new insight imo."
Looking at a picture of the parking garage actually tells us a lot about the possibilities of the situation and shows a lot of assumptions that have been made aren't true. Like the claim that he was contained and that the police could've waited for days. A sniper in a tall building with open windows in the middle of downtown Dallas isn't "contained" from shooting more people just because the entrances are blocked. I thought he was in an underground parking lot until I saw the building using Google streetview. Seeing the building changed the narrative by a lot for me.
posted by I-baLL at 5:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Looking at a picture of the parking garage actually tells us a lot about the possibilities of the situation and shows a lot of assumptions that have been made aren't true. Like the claim that he was contained and that the police could've waited for days. A sniper in a tall building with open windows in the middle of downtown Dallas isn't "contained" from shooting more people just because the entrances are blocked. I thought he was in an underground parking lot until I saw the building using Google streetview. Seeing the building changed the narrative by a lot for me.
posted by I-baLL at 5:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I didn't say go in to apprehend him. I agree that it would not be right to ask anyone to risk their lives to do that. I said wait. Wait is not "go in and apprehend." Wait is wait.
They waited, looks like 2-3 hours. What purpose would have been served by waiting longer?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:58 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
They waited, looks like 2-3 hours. What purpose would have been served by waiting longer?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:58 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Cops are killing hundreds of people each year with no meaningful oversight, and people want to talk wages. Un-fucking-believable.
Low wages (and other problems) probably do contribute to the issue as a whole, though. And I've never been a fan of the "this problem is bigger than the other problem, so we can't discuss the other problem" argument. It contributes to the narrative that BLM is inherently anti-police instead of anti-police brutality. We need to discuss problems the police face, because they're directly related to the problems the police cause.
His union spends 70% of their time trying to keep the city council from looting their pension fund.
Funny how politicians will "support their police" when it comes to brutality against a particular race but not when it comes to funding their retirement, eh?
(Although, a 50k salary is actually higher than I would have expected for a public servant.)
posted by perplexion at 5:59 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Low wages (and other problems) probably do contribute to the issue as a whole, though. And I've never been a fan of the "this problem is bigger than the other problem, so we can't discuss the other problem" argument. It contributes to the narrative that BLM is inherently anti-police instead of anti-police brutality. We need to discuss problems the police face, because they're directly related to the problems the police cause.
His union spends 70% of their time trying to keep the city council from looting their pension fund.
Funny how politicians will "support their police" when it comes to brutality against a particular race but not when it comes to funding their retirement, eh?
(Although, a 50k salary is actually higher than I would have expected for a public servant.)
posted by perplexion at 5:59 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Black Lives Matter is the side that is calling for police and citizens to become one community, to work together. A true enforcer of the law should be standing right with them.
He is and he isn't a minority around here. He's human and he's sickened by the murders committed by fellow LEO. He and others are trying to work from the inside to forge secure, positive and trusting relationships with Black communities but it takes time and every time another atrocity is committed, all the work they've been putting in falls apart. But they go back out there, stop and talk to kids and moms and dads, spend time getting to know each other in a non charged situation.
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
He is and he isn't a minority around here. He's human and he's sickened by the murders committed by fellow LEO. He and others are trying to work from the inside to forge secure, positive and trusting relationships with Black communities but it takes time and every time another atrocity is committed, all the work they've been putting in falls apart. But they go back out there, stop and talk to kids and moms and dads, spend time getting to know each other in a non charged situation.
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
50k plus when you murder someone you get half a million dollars from a bunch of racists on gofundme.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 6:04 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
I would really like this to be line from which the violence in our society does not escalate any further. Rather than describe all the points of excessive terror that must happen before "society" wants a murderer to be murderered by the police via whatever extrajudicial means, I would rather society focus on how we can ensure this situation is never allowed to happen again.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I guess I don't think 2-3 hours is a very long time. I meant wait long enough that it becomes easier to apprehend him or he becomes more likely to surrender. He's going to get hungry and sleepy and thirsty, eventually. He's going to have to poop. The police can work shifts. He can't.
And I assumed all along it was a multi-story parking structure (they said he had shot from above). The way to keep him from shooting people outside is to block off the streets outside. Yeah, I think a human life, even the life of a murderer, is worth shutting down the downtown for a couple of days if that's what it takes.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
And I assumed all along it was a multi-story parking structure (they said he had shot from above). The way to keep him from shooting people outside is to block off the streets outside. Yeah, I think a human life, even the life of a murderer, is worth shutting down the downtown for a couple of days if that's what it takes.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
How could they get a robot close enough without him seeing it and doing something? I'm assuming he could run faster. Did they blow up the building?
posted by AFABulous at 6:10 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 6:10 PM on July 8, 2016
What purpose would have been served by waiting longer?
Justice. I want him tried and convicted by his fellow Americans for his crimes.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [32 favorites]
Justice. I want him tried and convicted by his fellow Americans for his crimes.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:12 PM on July 8, 2016 [32 favorites]
Yeah, I think a human life, even the life of a murderer, is worth shutting down the downtown for a couple of days if that's what it takes.
It was shut down even after they bombed him, so that wasn't a pressing concern. Heck, we were heading into a weekend.
The reality is that most cops are going to administer street justice to anyone who shot cops. If you survive the hail of bullets/flames (now shrapnel) they'll reluctantly take you in.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
It was shut down even after they bombed him, so that wasn't a pressing concern. Heck, we were heading into a weekend.
The reality is that most cops are going to administer street justice to anyone who shot cops. If you survive the hail of bullets/flames (now shrapnel) they'll reluctantly take you in.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
They also didn't know at the time if there were a lot more shooters stlll out there. So it wouldn't have been a good risk of time and manpower to keep negotiating.
posted by zutalors! at 6:13 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by zutalors! at 6:13 PM on July 8, 2016
every time another atrocity is committed, all the work they've been putting in falls apart
Right. Exactly. These atrocities make the actual job, of making sure everyone in the community is safe, that much harder.
People in general don't want that. Black and brown communities definitely don't want that. We want our police to be able to care for us and guard us well.
Good cops want that, too. So they need to stand up and say: there is something horribly wrong in the way American policing works because we keep killing the people we're trying to protect.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Right. Exactly. These atrocities make the actual job, of making sure everyone in the community is safe, that much harder.
People in general don't want that. Black and brown communities definitely don't want that. We want our police to be able to care for us and guard us well.
Good cops want that, too. So they need to stand up and say: there is something horribly wrong in the way American policing works because we keep killing the people we're trying to protect.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is what cops need to do. These NYPD officers are suing the city over quotas that force them to target minority communities.
posted by AFABulous at 6:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 6:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [49 favorites]
No, he needs the intent, ability, and opportunity to kill more people.
Actually, my reading of Texas law doesn't say that. (source) It says lethal force is allowed to arrest someone if they have already used deadly force OR are going to use deadly force on people if not arrested. If you've already killed someone, they are allowed to use as much force as they NEED to in order to arrest you. So the argument is how much force was needed to arrest him? If he repeatedly refused to come out and continued to make threats, eventually they had to do something. They spent several hours in negotiations. I mean the only way he was going to get out alive was if he surrendered. I think he almost certainly wanted to commit suicide by cop, but preferred to take more cops with him.
posted by threeturtles at 6:16 PM on July 8, 2016
Actually, my reading of Texas law doesn't say that. (source) It says lethal force is allowed to arrest someone if they have already used deadly force OR are going to use deadly force on people if not arrested. If you've already killed someone, they are allowed to use as much force as they NEED to in order to arrest you. So the argument is how much force was needed to arrest him? If he repeatedly refused to come out and continued to make threats, eventually they had to do something. They spent several hours in negotiations. I mean the only way he was going to get out alive was if he surrendered. I think he almost certainly wanted to commit suicide by cop, but preferred to take more cops with him.
posted by threeturtles at 6:16 PM on July 8, 2016
"No, he needs the intent, ability, and opportunity to kill more people. I'd argue that at that point he may or may not have had the third thing."
If the cops approached him, would he have shot them?
posted by I-baLL at 6:19 PM on July 8, 2016
If the cops approached him, would he have shot them?
posted by I-baLL at 6:19 PM on July 8, 2016
Why don't police departments make quotas for thank you letters instead of tickets and arrests?
posted by p3t3 at 6:20 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by p3t3 at 6:20 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think he almost certainly wanted to commit suicide by cop
Weird how eager they were to accommodate him.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Weird how eager they were to accommodate him.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
The reality is that most cops are going to administer street justice to anyone who shot cops.
Which
is
exactly
the
problem.
I get the impulse for revenge, I totally do. But anybody who gives in to that impulse is not qualified to wield state-sanctioned lethal force.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Which
is
exactly
the
problem.
I get the impulse for revenge, I totally do. But anybody who gives in to that impulse is not qualified to wield state-sanctioned lethal force.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [31 favorites]
Why don't police departments make quotas for thank you letters instead of tickets and arrests?
How much money do you include in your thank you letters?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
How much money do you include in your thank you letters?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:23 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
These NYPD officers are suing the city over quotas that force them to target minority communities.
Yeah. :( Makes me think of "performance incentives" for teaching, too. They're framed as a reward for doing good, but pretty soon the incentive becomes the standard, and then you're being asked why you're not making your bonus.
Making arrests and citations is no more a pure, context-free indicator of what's legitimately happening than passing or flunking students. Only too many bureaucrats and politicians want easy-to-chart metrics they can show off to show how awesome things are and/or where they need money. And naturally it's poor and minority populations that get screwed.
It's almost as if some professions aren't so easy to measure for performance.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah. :( Makes me think of "performance incentives" for teaching, too. They're framed as a reward for doing good, but pretty soon the incentive becomes the standard, and then you're being asked why you're not making your bonus.
Making arrests and citations is no more a pure, context-free indicator of what's legitimately happening than passing or flunking students. Only too many bureaucrats and politicians want easy-to-chart metrics they can show off to show how awesome things are and/or where they need money. And naturally it's poor and minority populations that get screwed.
It's almost as if some professions aren't so easy to measure for performance.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
How much money do you include in your thank you letters?
I'd rather we pay them in taxes than tickets.
posted by p3t3 at 6:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'd rather we pay them in taxes than tickets.
posted by p3t3 at 6:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't feel like they sent in the robot in a rage driven by blind impulse for revenge. I think that's a fantasy people are inventing.
posted by zutalors! at 6:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 6:25 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's almost as if some professions aren't so easy to measure for performance.
A lot of people would rather have imaginary, pointless measurements than no measurements.
posted by thelonius at 6:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
A lot of people would rather have imaginary, pointless measurements than no measurements.
posted by thelonius at 6:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't feel like they sent in the robot in a rage driven by blind impulse for revenge.
It sure wasn't a surfeit of patience.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:30 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
It sure wasn't a surfeit of patience.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:30 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'd rather we pay them in taxes than tickets.
This is a big issue. The anti-tax climate has shifted the burden of funding governments more and more to fees and fines, which often are quite regressive in their impact. What's more, the practice of jailing poor defendants for failure to pay enormous (to a poor person) fines or even court costs seems to be growing.
posted by thelonius at 6:37 PM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
This is a big issue. The anti-tax climate has shifted the burden of funding governments more and more to fees and fines, which often are quite regressive in their impact. What's more, the practice of jailing poor defendants for failure to pay enormous (to a poor person) fines or even court costs seems to be growing.
posted by thelonius at 6:37 PM on July 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
I don't feel like they sent in the robot in a rage driven by blind impulse for revenge.
I think the terms "cold" and "calculating" fit better there.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:39 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the terms "cold" and "calculating" fit better there.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:39 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Has anyone seen an update on the police audio from MN? Most of the news reporting on it is at least 7 hours old.
posted by futz at 6:43 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by futz at 6:43 PM on July 8, 2016
The IED-delivered-by-robot method reminds me of the Boston bombing response, when things ramped up massively and quickly went totally overboard, but at the same time, due to the nature of the crime and law enforcement's ability to manipulate public sentiment, it was basically impossible to criticize what was going on and everyone had to sort of tacitly accept it or find themselves facing a torrent of bile. Every time something big happens that causes institutional panic like this, it goes a little further. I'm not a huge fan of slippery slope arguments in general, but we sure do seem to be on one.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:44 PM on July 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
I don't feel like they sent in the robot in a rage driven by blind impulse for revenge.
I think the terms "cold" and "calculating" fit better there.
I mean yeah, they were trying to go for the best possible outcome for the most people.
posted by zutalors! at 6:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the terms "cold" and "calculating" fit better there.
I mean yeah, they were trying to go for the best possible outcome for the most people.
posted by zutalors! at 6:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess I don't think 2-3 hours is a very long time.
The issue isn't that 2-3 hours wasn't a very long time. The issue is that within 1 1/2 hours ten people had been targeted for execution, and shot and three had died.
Society is under no moral obligation to wait out someone who is killing its citizens. It sounds like we disagree on the use of capital punishment, either generally or in this specific case, so I'm not sure what further back and forth will solve.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
The issue isn't that 2-3 hours wasn't a very long time. The issue is that within 1 1/2 hours ten people had been targeted for execution, and shot and three had died.
Society is under no moral obligation to wait out someone who is killing its citizens. It sounds like we disagree on the use of capital punishment, either generally or in this specific case, so I'm not sure what further back and forth will solve.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, I think we're focusing too much on the use of a robot to deliver a bomb. Maybe the technology isn't there yet, but I think we're fast approaching a point where if a robot can be sent in close enough to deliver a bomb, shouldn't it also be capable of delivering a flash of light, a deafening sound, a huge net, or something else that can disarm and detain a suspect?
posted by FJT at 6:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by FJT at 6:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not a huge fan of slippery slope arguments in general, but we sure do seem to be on one.
Seems less like a slippery slope than an example of the Shock Doctrine at work. Although I believe the police were justified in causing this particular death, I share your concern at the use of this (apparently new) method to do so.
posted by perplexion at 6:51 PM on July 8, 2016
Seems less like a slippery slope than an example of the Shock Doctrine at work. Although I believe the police were justified in causing this particular death, I share your concern at the use of this (apparently new) method to do so.
posted by perplexion at 6:51 PM on July 8, 2016
I don't really think it's about being for or against capital punishment. It's about who gets to determine and distribute that punishment. I get that someone might die in a confrontation with police gone bad. I'm less comfortable with a local police force quite deliberately saying to themselves, welp, guess we're going to kill this guy now.
posted by ctmf at 6:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 6:51 PM on July 8, 2016 [14 favorites]
Let's send in a robot to be judge, jury, and executioner!
Meanwhile, let's take Dylan Roof to Burger King and get him a sandwich because he's hungry.
This seems kinda fucked up. Even though fucked up is the new hotness this year.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Meanwhile, let's take Dylan Roof to Burger King and get him a sandwich because he's hungry.
This seems kinda fucked up. Even though fucked up is the new hotness this year.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:54 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
(while other options exist, and again with the "we don't know everything yet")
posted by ctmf at 6:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 6:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Those hours of waiting.
They were there in Orlando, too. A bold and stunning attack followed by -- not surrender, not immediate suicide-by-cop. A waiting. And in each case the waiting was ended by law enforcement bearing down with fully-militarized force: robot bombs piloted into the parking ramp, heavy machinery being driven right through the wall of the nightclub.
I don't know what that portends. I don't even know if it means anything at all.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
They were there in Orlando, too. A bold and stunning attack followed by -- not surrender, not immediate suicide-by-cop. A waiting. And in each case the waiting was ended by law enforcement bearing down with fully-militarized force: robot bombs piloted into the parking ramp, heavy machinery being driven right through the wall of the nightclub.
I don't know what that portends. I don't even know if it means anything at all.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:55 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dylann Roof was captured at a traffic stop. There wasn't a stand off. it wasn't an active scenario.
posted by zutalors! at 6:57 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 6:57 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
they were trying to go for the best possible outcome for the most people.
And being able to declare that "justice is done" on the same day is good... for most people. And not having the expense of a trial (wasn't that why they shot Osama Bin Ladin in the head and dumped his body in the ocean?).
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:59 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
And being able to declare that "justice is done" on the same day is good... for most people. And not having the expense of a trial (wasn't that why they shot Osama Bin Ladin in the head and dumped his body in the ocean?).
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:59 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Society is under no moral obligation to wait out someone who is killing its citizens
Agreed, but it seems the "is" was neutralized a couple/three hours before the shooter was.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:00 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Agreed, but it seems the "is" was neutralized a couple/three hours before the shooter was.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:00 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Let's put it another way, then. When people are marching in your town because black people cannot get justice from police, when they are marching because black people are being executed without cause in incident after incident, when they're marching because they've watched two black men gunned down like animals on video in the last two days...
...maybe THAT's the time that you demonstrate with the whole world watching that even under extreme circumstances, even in the face of devastating loss, even when there IS obvious cause to strike at a black man with lethal vengeance, there ARE police that can show restraint. That they can do what the marchers want them to do -- apply the law equitably, protect the innocent, and choose subdual over killing unless there is no other choice.
Or they could blow him the fuck up. Also an option.
posted by delfin at 7:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [41 favorites]
...maybe THAT's the time that you demonstrate with the whole world watching that even under extreme circumstances, even in the face of devastating loss, even when there IS obvious cause to strike at a black man with lethal vengeance, there ARE police that can show restraint. That they can do what the marchers want them to do -- apply the law equitably, protect the innocent, and choose subdual over killing unless there is no other choice.
Or they could blow him the fuck up. Also an option.
posted by delfin at 7:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [41 favorites]
Emptywheel connects the bomb-bot to drone killing.
posted by rhizome at 7:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 7:01 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the police are much to fast to use force in general, and deadly force in particular. But from the very small amount of information released so far, I just can't see a problem with the decision to use deadly force against someone who is holed up, in an intermittent firefight with the police, and who is claiming to have bombs. Throwing a net on him from a magic robot net-thrower from the future won't stop him from detonating a bomb, if he had actually had them.
In hindsight, there are always better options. Apparently he didn't have any bombs, and apparently he was acting alone. During the standoff, those weren't things that were known.
Delivering their IED by robot might be a first, though you'd think someone else would have tried it before.
They were there in Orlando, too. A bold and stunning attack followed by -- not surrender, not immediate suicide-by-cop. A waiting. And in each case the waiting was ended by law enforcement bearing down with fully-militarized force: robot bombs piloted into the parking ramp, heavy machinery being driven right through the wall of the nightclub.
The criticism of Orlando has been that the police waited outside while he was killing people inside, instead of immediately storming the place. More and more, the procedure is to go in immediately, and you can see that in some of the videos from Dallas, where the crowd is running away and police armed only with handguns are running towards the gunfire.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
In hindsight, there are always better options. Apparently he didn't have any bombs, and apparently he was acting alone. During the standoff, those weren't things that were known.
Delivering their IED by robot might be a first, though you'd think someone else would have tried it before.
They were there in Orlando, too. A bold and stunning attack followed by -- not surrender, not immediate suicide-by-cop. A waiting. And in each case the waiting was ended by law enforcement bearing down with fully-militarized force: robot bombs piloted into the parking ramp, heavy machinery being driven right through the wall of the nightclub.
The criticism of Orlando has been that the police waited outside while he was killing people inside, instead of immediately storming the place. More and more, the procedure is to go in immediately, and you can see that in some of the videos from Dallas, where the crowd is running away and police armed only with handguns are running towards the gunfire.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Even in the realm of capital punishment, there's a difference between gunning down a contained threat as a reactive last resort and the deliberate, pre-emptive nature of delivering an explosive device. In some ways, these extrajudicial killings by police officers are predicated on convincing people of the former and not the latter. More facts definitely need to be revealed, but it's a little unprecedented to see police demonstrate such a calculated killer intent for the given scenario.
It's been mentioned before, even in this thread, that some police officers are likely active white supremacists. If nobody is willing to cross the thin blue line and take a stand against these awful acts, ipso facto, police forces become toxic vessels for that white supremacy. Racism tends to act in subtle ways, like not affording the same options to a situation that only varies on the basis of the actor's ethnicity.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 7:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's been mentioned before, even in this thread, that some police officers are likely active white supremacists. If nobody is willing to cross the thin blue line and take a stand against these awful acts, ipso facto, police forces become toxic vessels for that white supremacy. Racism tends to act in subtle ways, like not affording the same options to a situation that only varies on the basis of the actor's ethnicity.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 7:06 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
I mean I think in their ideal timeline they would have taken him alive. Because then we could understand motive. Apparently this guy had been running drills in his yard for months with his military gear on. He was just waiting for his opportunity. It could have been some other kind of event, not a police protest.
posted by zutalors! at 7:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zutalors! at 7:08 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let's put it another way, then.
No, let's not try to compare a black male who was killed for committing mass murder to black people being needlessly shot by police.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
No, let's not try to compare a black male who was killed for committing mass murder to black people being needlessly shot by police.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
The entire point of Black Lives Matter is the police should not be allowed to summarily execute people and bypass our criminal justice system.
posted by zarq at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [62 favorites]
posted by zarq at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [62 favorites]
Delivering their IED by robot might be a first, though you'd think someone else would have tried it before.
It's been done in Afghanistan.
So, yeah. That's what our occupying army is bringing to bare.
I mean I think in their ideal timeline they would have taken him alive.
They spent less time than an average NFL game negotiating with him. T
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's been done in Afghanistan.
So, yeah. That's what our occupying army is bringing to bare.
I mean I think in their ideal timeline they would have taken him alive.
They spent less time than an average NFL game negotiating with him. T
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:13 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Personally, I see a problem with using a bomb to kill someone "who is holed up, in an intermittent firefight with the police, and who is claiming to have bombs." If he DID have bombs with him, the likelihood that the police-generated explosion could have detonated them is NOT "the best possible outcome for the most people" (unless they had already set up the kind of containment usually done when the bomb squad tries to 'destroy a bomb with a bomb', which is impossible to the point of Richard Bey Movie plot; or if the bomb robot was 'self-containing', which raises the question: did the shooter let the bot close enough to give him a hug?)
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:15 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
They spent less time than an average NFL game negotiating with him.
They felt like they were in an active scenario with other people at risk. They thought there were other people, and bombs. I don't know what football games have to do with it.
posted by zutalors! at 7:17 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like it's really weird to just assume a bunch of frazzled, stressed, grieving cops were just being lazy and would spend longer watching NFL. But ok.
posted by zutalors! at 7:17 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zutalors! at 7:17 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
shouldn't it also be capable of delivering a flash of light, a deafening sound, a huge net, or something else that can disarm and detain a suspect?
Lord, I've missed Metafilter's siege tactics from the more innocent Malheur days.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Lord, I've missed Metafilter's siege tactics from the more innocent Malheur days.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:26 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
According to NPR, the robot was rigged with C4 on its extension. There's some other interesting information there that notes theres a large number of explosive ordnance disposal devices (bomb robot).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 PM on July 8, 2016
I can't tell if I'm insensitive or not, I apologise in advance, but would the sniper have fired on non-white law enforcement who advanced to arrest him?
Or was it that the gunner was going to keep seeking out white LEOs to kill and that they'd do anything to continue trying to accomplish their goal?
posted by porpoise at 7:39 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or was it that the gunner was going to keep seeking out white LEOs to kill and that they'd do anything to continue trying to accomplish their goal?
posted by porpoise at 7:39 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
There was at least one black civilian among the wounded so at some point he was not discriminating.
posted by zutalors! at 7:47 PM on July 8, 2016
posted by zutalors! at 7:47 PM on July 8, 2016
There was at least one black civilian among the wounded so at some point he was not discriminating.
Or he missed. Or the bullet ricocheted. Or...
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or he missed. Or the bullet ricocheted. Or...
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes so he could have missed and killed non white cops and civilians . Then there's the hundreds displaced. It's not accurate that white cops were his only victims.
posted by zutalors! at 7:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 7:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Black Lives Matter asked that police not be on police floats in police uniforms, not that they leave the community. There is a big difference between the two.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Deoridhe at 8:05 PM on July 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
hollygoheavy: But they go back out there, stop and talk to kids and moms and dads, spend time getting to know each other in a non charged situation.
Here's a hard question: When he sees another officer doing something illegal, does he immediately arrest his fellow officer? If he sees another officer abusing his power, does he immediately stop his fellow officer? That's what good cops need to do, in order to be good cops. If they don't or can't, friendly chats probably won't make any difference in the long run.
posted by clawsoon at 8:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
Here's a hard question: When he sees another officer doing something illegal, does he immediately arrest his fellow officer? If he sees another officer abusing his power, does he immediately stop his fellow officer? That's what good cops need to do, in order to be good cops. If they don't or can't, friendly chats probably won't make any difference in the long run.
posted by clawsoon at 8:09 PM on July 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
If you shoot a dozen cops, or are implicated in same, you are not going to be taken alive.
posted by Windopaene at 8:10 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 8:10 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's a pretty big protest here in San Francisco tonight, currently in front of City Hall, flanked by large numbers of police. It's got people chanting "stand up fight back" among others. I realize this is surely meant in the spirit of struggle and the peaceful fight for justice, and it's not for me to police anybody's tone, but it's not a message I'm really excited for at the end of what has been a very long week.
posted by zachlipton at 8:19 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 8:19 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
A Confession…: It would be hard to overestimate the impact that smart phone cameras have had on forcing us to grapple with the fact that this is, in fact, a very real (and all-too-common) problem. The streaming video of the aftermath of the killing of Philando Castile appears to be the latest tragic example. (Note: We still don’t know exactly what happened, so I’m going to withhold judgment on this specific incident—but the video evidence we’ve all seen does not look good for the police.)
And if there’s any good to come from this horrible trend, it may be that the scales are coming off the eyes of a lot of well meaning, if naive, white Americans. My hope is that this will change public opinion to the point that we can change public policy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:20 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
And if there’s any good to come from this horrible trend, it may be that the scales are coming off the eyes of a lot of well meaning, if naive, white Americans. My hope is that this will change public opinion to the point that we can change public policy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:20 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Special for MetaFilter, here's the crowd in San Francisco tonight, through the fog (and from in the crowd).
posted by zachlipton at 8:27 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 8:27 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
The entire point of Black Lives Matter is the police should not be allowed to summarily execute people and bypass our criminal justice system.
This, this, a thousand times this, _even when death is deserved_.
There is a difference between blowing away a cop-killer at the scene of his crimes and blowing away a random guy selling CDs, or one driving down a public road, or one walking home from a convenience store, or choking a guy out selling loosies on the street, or turning a guy who ran from you's spine to Jell-O in the back of a police truck. There are arguments for using lethal force in the former, no arguments for ANY force in the others.
But none of them got a lawyer, none of them faced charges, none of them got a trial, none of them got even a pretense of a presumption of innocence because all of them got put down like animals.
I get the concept of "let's shove some C4 in with this cop-killing shitbag." I get the motivation. But it still doesn't mean that it should happen.
posted by delfin at 8:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
This, this, a thousand times this, _even when death is deserved_.
There is a difference between blowing away a cop-killer at the scene of his crimes and blowing away a random guy selling CDs, or one driving down a public road, or one walking home from a convenience store, or choking a guy out selling loosies on the street, or turning a guy who ran from you's spine to Jell-O in the back of a police truck. There are arguments for using lethal force in the former, no arguments for ANY force in the others.
But none of them got a lawyer, none of them faced charges, none of them got a trial, none of them got even a pretense of a presumption of innocence because all of them got put down like animals.
I get the concept of "let's shove some C4 in with this cop-killing shitbag." I get the motivation. But it still doesn't mean that it should happen.
posted by delfin at 8:35 PM on July 8, 2016 [34 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, this has been a long thread that's had some topic drift. Please read it before throwing your two cents in so as not to rehash discussions that have been very thoroughly had already. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:37 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:37 PM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
My only quibble is that I would change "taxpayers on the hook" to "public on the hook" or "people of CITY on the hook".
if i only had a penguin...: Thanks for the suggestion -- I think your phrasing is much more inclusive. I will be incorporating that in my letter writing henceforth.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
if i only had a penguin...: Thanks for the suggestion -- I think your phrasing is much more inclusive. I will be incorporating that in my letter writing henceforth.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:50 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you shoot a dozen cops, or are implicated in same, you are not going to be taken alive.
Cop killers can and are taken alive as even the most cursory Google search would tell you. Further exploration of specific cases can be found here (for 2016), if anyone's interested.
Standoffs are harder, of course, and likelier to end in the death of the suspect, especially when they refuse to surrender. There's a case to be made this was botched, even to argue about how race may have played into how the suspect was interacted with. But no, this was not the result of some sort of bullshit police 'code' regarding cop killers.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Cop killers can and are taken alive as even the most cursory Google search would tell you. Further exploration of specific cases can be found here (for 2016), if anyone's interested.
Standoffs are harder, of course, and likelier to end in the death of the suspect, especially when they refuse to surrender. There's a case to be made this was botched, even to argue about how race may have played into how the suspect was interacted with. But no, this was not the result of some sort of bullshit police 'code' regarding cop killers.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:53 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
The timeline and map linked by Brandon Blatcher above suggest to me that the police could have chosen to wait longer. Johnson was cornered at 11:10 PM in an elevated parking garage across the street from El Centro College, which had been under lockdown since 8 PM - before the protest began. The lockdown ended at 2:09 AM; almost a full hour before the police used a robot to kill Johnson with a bomb (at 3:06 AM).
While it was obviously still an active situation, according to the timeline there had been no shots fired for four hours and the police clearly thought the people in the building across the street were safe enough they could leave. That implies a level of containment that could withstand a few more hours; perhaps a few hours where Johnson could have given up, perhaps a few hours where he could be weakened due to fatigue/hunger/thirst and be arrested safely, perhaps a few hours for fresh cops on the scene to figure out a nonlethal solution that would end up with the murder trial Johnson deserved, rather than a chilling precedent.
People have been talking about firefighters and police, both first responders who deal with dangerous, unpredictable situations and have special powers, equipment and pay to reflect these facts. I don't expect either of them to do their jobs without taking appropriate precautions, but I don't expect either of them to deem any risk at all to be too much for them to bear and to prioritize their own lives over everything else. You don't get to have it both ways.
Imagine if instead of going into houses to fight fires, the fire department just drove out with a massive robotic bulldozer every time and smashed the whole building into a more easily extinguishable heap. Sure, more innocent people would be killed and more property damage would result. But it would save firefighter's lives. Now imagine if the fire department only ever seemed to do that to white people's houses.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 10:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [39 favorites]
While it was obviously still an active situation, according to the timeline there had been no shots fired for four hours and the police clearly thought the people in the building across the street were safe enough they could leave. That implies a level of containment that could withstand a few more hours; perhaps a few hours where Johnson could have given up, perhaps a few hours where he could be weakened due to fatigue/hunger/thirst and be arrested safely, perhaps a few hours for fresh cops on the scene to figure out a nonlethal solution that would end up with the murder trial Johnson deserved, rather than a chilling precedent.
People have been talking about firefighters and police, both first responders who deal with dangerous, unpredictable situations and have special powers, equipment and pay to reflect these facts. I don't expect either of them to do their jobs without taking appropriate precautions, but I don't expect either of them to deem any risk at all to be too much for them to bear and to prioritize their own lives over everything else. You don't get to have it both ways.
Imagine if instead of going into houses to fight fires, the fire department just drove out with a massive robotic bulldozer every time and smashed the whole building into a more easily extinguishable heap. Sure, more innocent people would be killed and more property damage would result. But it would save firefighter's lives. Now imagine if the fire department only ever seemed to do that to white people's houses.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 10:41 PM on July 8, 2016 [39 favorites]
I guess I wonder who gets to make that call to intentionally move ahead with the robot-bomb plan. Lieutenant level? Chief? Mayor? Whose order does it take to stop waiting, kill that man? Who should it be?
It doesn't even have to be a crazy robot-bomb. A sniper with the scope on target - self defense, defense of others, sure. That's a hard call and one I don't envy them. But "this is taking too long, just do it" or "He might kill more people, some time later?" That's not at all the same thing.
posted by ctmf at 11:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It doesn't even have to be a crazy robot-bomb. A sniper with the scope on target - self defense, defense of others, sure. That's a hard call and one I don't envy them. But "this is taking too long, just do it" or "He might kill more people, some time later?" That's not at all the same thing.
posted by ctmf at 11:52 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pretty sure it will was the chief who made the call. I base this solely on the 12:30am press conference, where the Mayor ended the questions by saying the chief had some difficult calls to make.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:18 AM on July 9, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:18 AM on July 9, 2016
While it was obviously still an active situation, according to the timeline there had been no shots fired for four hours and the police clearly thought the people in the building across the street were safe enough they could leave. That implies a level of containment that could withstand a few more hours
My understanding was that Johnson had threatened that there were hidden bombs, so they had to kill him in order to prevent their detonation. At least that's the story as I heard it.
posted by rhizome at 12:27 AM on July 9, 2016
My understanding was that Johnson had threatened that there were hidden bombs, so they had to kill him in order to prevent their detonation. At least that's the story as I heard it.
posted by rhizome at 12:27 AM on July 9, 2016
A small crowd of protesters in San Francisco regathered and are blocking Market St (at 9th) at this late hour. The police seem to be leaving them be.
posted by zachlipton at 12:28 AM on July 9, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 12:28 AM on July 9, 2016
Funny how windows don't get smashed when police aren't instigating violence against protestors.
posted by rhizome at 12:57 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 12:57 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a few dozen people led by folks who have been doing this a long time and are keeping the crowd together and peaceful. It's probably not going to last too much longer, and most everyone will move to the sidewalk before they're arrested. Everything's been talked over with the police, and yeah, it stays pretty darn peaceful when the crowd is small and dedicated and have a line of communication with the police.
posted by zachlipton at 1:17 AM on July 9, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 1:17 AM on July 9, 2016
They waited, looks like 2-3 hours. What purpose would have been served by waiting longer?
I literally do not understand this point of view. Was it worth waiting one minute? Five minutes? If so, why not wait until his physical needs forced him to surrender? That way, a life would have been spared and justice could have been served.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:35 AM on July 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
I literally do not understand this point of view. Was it worth waiting one minute? Five minutes? If so, why not wait until his physical needs forced him to surrender? That way, a life would have been spared and justice could have been served.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:35 AM on July 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
Spared for only a while, it being Texas.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 3:20 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 3:20 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
They waited, looks like 2-3 hours. What purpose would have been served by waiting longer?
This is a very sobering sentence and one I will imagine just came out, and was not the result of a lot of introspection.
So imagine that's your father, brother, son, uncle, best friend in the car-park. Would you expect (expect!) the cops to just give up negotiating and kill him? Or would you believe it important, worthwhile and just that - though he most likely committed a horrible crime - he be given a fair trial and once proven guilty, be put in jail?
The distance between this case and a case that might someday touch your life is, though it appears vast, vanishingly small.
As a civilized nation, we need to act as civilized people.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:36 AM on July 9, 2016 [32 favorites]
This is a very sobering sentence and one I will imagine just came out, and was not the result of a lot of introspection.
So imagine that's your father, brother, son, uncle, best friend in the car-park. Would you expect (expect!) the cops to just give up negotiating and kill him? Or would you believe it important, worthwhile and just that - though he most likely committed a horrible crime - he be given a fair trial and once proven guilty, be put in jail?
The distance between this case and a case that might someday touch your life is, though it appears vast, vanishingly small.
As a civilized nation, we need to act as civilized people.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:36 AM on July 9, 2016 [32 favorites]
Would you expect (expect!) the cops to just give up negotiating and kill him?
After my hypothetical brother had killed four cops, was cornered and had expressed a desire to kill more cops?
In order to defend their lives and the lives of others, I would expect the cops to kill my brother after a good faith attempt to capture him alive, which is exactly what happened here.
The killing was self-defense and not punitive, so the comment about deserving a trial is wholly irrelevant.
posted by jpe at 4:43 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
After my hypothetical brother had killed four cops, was cornered and had expressed a desire to kill more cops?
In order to defend their lives and the lives of others, I would expect the cops to kill my brother after a good faith attempt to capture him alive, which is exactly what happened here.
The killing was self-defense and not punitive, so the comment about deserving a trial is wholly irrelevant.
posted by jpe at 4:43 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know whether it was justice or vengeance or just convenience, it was a really bad idea. What if he actually did have other bombs, either with him or elsewhere? What if the dude was wired up to a truck bomb in there or something?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:53 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:53 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
This goes to a broader point dealing with the different experiences of PoC and white people in the U.S., rather than any particular recent tragedy.
I'm no Mark Twain expert, but based on Huck Finn the sort of encyclopedic entry in my head about Twain was: 19th century essayist and humorist. The author of one of the greatest books about the south. A very enlightened man.
Now I'm reading Roughing It, and while Twain does cop various humanistic attitudes about the Native Americans and Mormons he encounters, half of the time he's writing about the two groups it's hard as a reader to not keep cringing. Because while Twain sees in a way that is very progressive for the time the ill-effects of missionary intervention in native populations and aspects of U.S. Native American policy, he clearly sees the natives whom he encounters as subhuman. He doesn't use that distinction to advocate cruelty, but the distinction is pretty clear and I am sort of sad that Twain didn't see it.
Most of the cringe-worthy shit Twain went on about wouldn't fly today. But those distinctions between ethnic groups was still talked about by my grandfather's generation (WWII, white collar career afterwards) pretty openly. It's hard to imagine that there is not a baked-in sense amongst white society that We Are Civilization, as stupid as that notion is, as much as liberals we may want to deny it.
Anyway, that's sort of the sense that I got from the mistake of taking a look at what was under the #Dallas hashtag yesterday. That and the FB comment from above to the effect of why didn't Castillo's girlfriend comfort her daughter???
There's this notion that white people are the civilizing force that is as much to blame for this shitty, shitty, shitty mess as the gun culture in this country.
Anyway, that's my stupid white person thought for the day.
posted by angrycat at 5:20 AM on July 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm no Mark Twain expert, but based on Huck Finn the sort of encyclopedic entry in my head about Twain was: 19th century essayist and humorist. The author of one of the greatest books about the south. A very enlightened man.
Now I'm reading Roughing It, and while Twain does cop various humanistic attitudes about the Native Americans and Mormons he encounters, half of the time he's writing about the two groups it's hard as a reader to not keep cringing. Because while Twain sees in a way that is very progressive for the time the ill-effects of missionary intervention in native populations and aspects of U.S. Native American policy, he clearly sees the natives whom he encounters as subhuman. He doesn't use that distinction to advocate cruelty, but the distinction is pretty clear and I am sort of sad that Twain didn't see it.
Most of the cringe-worthy shit Twain went on about wouldn't fly today. But those distinctions between ethnic groups was still talked about by my grandfather's generation (WWII, white collar career afterwards) pretty openly. It's hard to imagine that there is not a baked-in sense amongst white society that We Are Civilization, as stupid as that notion is, as much as liberals we may want to deny it.
Anyway, that's sort of the sense that I got from the mistake of taking a look at what was under the #Dallas hashtag yesterday. That and the FB comment from above to the effect of why didn't Castillo's girlfriend comfort her daughter???
There's this notion that white people are the civilizing force that is as much to blame for this shitty, shitty, shitty mess as the gun culture in this country.
Anyway, that's my stupid white person thought for the day.
posted by angrycat at 5:20 AM on July 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
they had to kill him in order to prevent their detonation
Because, of course, they used psychic police powers to know that those hidden bombs were not on any sort of timer or dead man switch. /mutter
Not seeing how killing him in this case actually guarantees safety in any way.
posted by Archelaus at 5:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
Because, of course, they used psychic police powers to know that those hidden bombs were not on any sort of timer or dead man switch. /mutter
Not seeing how killing him in this case actually guarantees safety in any way.
posted by Archelaus at 5:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
If so, why not wait until his physical needs forced him to surrender?
What makes you think a person who's shot 14 people, refused to surrender and vowed to kill more people is going to act rationally now? What physical needs would force him to surrender?
So imagine that's your father, brother, son, uncle, best friend in the car-park. Would you expect (expect!) the cops to just give up negotiating and kill him?
If my father, brother, son, uncle, best friend etc was a trained military veteran who just shot 14 people, refused to surrender after being given the chance, vowed to kill more people and claimed they had planted bombs all over the city, I'd wonder what was wrong with the police force if they tried to wait him out for too long.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:33 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
What makes you think a person who's shot 14 people, refused to surrender and vowed to kill more people is going to act rationally now? What physical needs would force him to surrender?
So imagine that's your father, brother, son, uncle, best friend in the car-park. Would you expect (expect!) the cops to just give up negotiating and kill him?
If my father, brother, son, uncle, best friend etc was a trained military veteran who just shot 14 people, refused to surrender after being given the chance, vowed to kill more people and claimed they had planted bombs all over the city, I'd wonder what was wrong with the police force if they tried to wait him out for too long.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:33 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oddly enough Ars Technica has some more information, showing "that the DPD has three Northrop Grumman Remotec bomb disposal robots, including a Mark VI, an Andros V-A1, and an HD-2. It is not clear which robot was used to kill Johnson—but all three models are remote-controlled and do not operate autonomously."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wish I could stop defending Dallas PD here but I just don't think they did anything wrong based on the facts that we have.
Because, of course, they used psychic police powers to know that those hidden bombs were not on any sort of timer or dead man switch.
No, they used the fact that people don't really build IEDs with dead man switches or timers, they build them with remote detonators, often some kind of cell phone because the guy isn't a bomb maker or electrician. That's another thing that you see in movies that isn't realistic.
There were no good options in this situations and no guarantees, they did the best they could and used a solution they felt had the highest likelihood of minimizing casualties.
For me it comes down to how they reacted once it was done. This shouldn't something for them to celebrate, they should be sad that they had to kill the suspect and disappointed in themselves for not being able to come up with a better solution.
posted by VTX at 5:36 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because, of course, they used psychic police powers to know that those hidden bombs were not on any sort of timer or dead man switch.
No, they used the fact that people don't really build IEDs with dead man switches or timers, they build them with remote detonators, often some kind of cell phone because the guy isn't a bomb maker or electrician. That's another thing that you see in movies that isn't realistic.
There were no good options in this situations and no guarantees, they did the best they could and used a solution they felt had the highest likelihood of minimizing casualties.
For me it comes down to how they reacted once it was done. This shouldn't something for them to celebrate, they should be sad that they had to kill the suspect and disappointed in themselves for not being able to come up with a better solution.
posted by VTX at 5:36 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
What makes you think a person who's shot 14 people, refused to surrender and vowed to kill more people is going to act rationally now? What physical needs would force him to surrender?
Thirst? Hunger? Lack of sleep?
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:38 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thirst? Hunger? Lack of sleep?
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:38 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Quite an amazing speech from the mayor of Dallas
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:42 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:42 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
A note left at the school where Philando Castile worked.
posted by stopgap at 5:51 AM on July 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by stopgap at 5:51 AM on July 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
Thirst? Hunger? Lack of sleep?
And you think he would have surrendered instead of coming out guns-blazing?
posted by VTX at 5:51 AM on July 9, 2016
And you think he would have surrendered instead of coming out guns-blazing?
posted by VTX at 5:51 AM on July 9, 2016
Thirst? Hunger? Lack of sleep?
Ok, lets follow those suggestions. What makes you think any of those would make him surrender in a manner that wouldn't risk the lives of more officers?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:51 AM on July 9, 2016
Ok, lets follow those suggestions. What makes you think any of those would make him surrender in a manner that wouldn't risk the lives of more officers?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:51 AM on July 9, 2016
How many assholes have claimed to have planted bombs all over the place vs. how many have actually planted bombs all over the place? I think we're well past the Cheney Threshold of effect vs. probability.
posted by Etrigan at 5:53 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 5:53 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's a really important speech. Hopefully this will bring an appropriate amount of shame on every other politician whose city was NOT just attacked who has been claiming that BLM protests incite violence.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:54 AM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:54 AM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Really wish people here would stop focusing on the damn robot there are other people and issues involved here.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:56 AM on July 9, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:56 AM on July 9, 2016 [12 favorites]
And you think he would have surrendered instead of coming out guns-blazing?
We'll never know. The Dallas PD closed down us finding out.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:59 AM on July 9, 2016
We'll never know. The Dallas PD closed down us finding out.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:59 AM on July 9, 2016
Mod note: Yeah, I'm pretty sure we could have a few thousand more comments on the robot question, but we've already gone around and around in the same circle on that one quite a bit, so let's open up the discussion to get past the robot at this point, barring some further info. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:05 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:05 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm a black ex-cop, and this is the real truth about race and policing, via kottke.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:10 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:10 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
A Black man named Alva Braziel was killed in Houston overnight. Houston PD claims that he pointed/waved a firearm at them. He was shot 10 times, three times in the head.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:42 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:42 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
A Week From Hell (Charles M. Blow, NYTimes): Friday morning, after the Dallas shootings, my college student daughter entered my room before heading out to her summer job. She hugged me and said: “Dad, I’m scared. Are you scared?” We talked about what had happened in the preceding days, and I tried to allay her fears and soothe her anxiety.
How does a father answer such a question? I’m still not sure I got it precisely right.
Truth is, I am afraid. Not so much for my own safety, which is what my daughter was fretting about, but more for the country I love.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 AM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
How does a father answer such a question? I’m still not sure I got it precisely right.
Truth is, I am afraid. Not so much for my own safety, which is what my daughter was fretting about, but more for the country I love.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 AM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
The killing was self-defense and not punitive
Self-defence requires imminent danger. Not just "he says he's going to kill people later and we know he totally would because he's done it before" but "he's about to kill someone if we don't do something right this minute."
And you think he would have surrendered instead of coming out guns-blazing?
If and when he had come out guns-blazing or (or gun pointed), it would have been self-defense to kill him then and nobody would question it. But "that surely would have happened a few hours or days down the line" even if we knew it for sure, is not imminent danger. Incidentally, we don't know it for sure. I think the most useful physical need cops could have leveraged was sleep. Keep him awake for 3 days.
Anyway, these arguments about his coming out guns blazing or detonating bombs don't make much sense when you think about the fact that they drove a bomb at him. Do you think those bomb robots move at a mile per second? He would have easily seen it coming at him. If you think hunger/thirst/exhaustion would cause him to fire or detonate bombs, why wouldn't you also think that driving a bomb at him would have the same effect? It's the fact that they had to drive a bomb at him slowly and apparently thought this a safe thing to do that makes me doubt there was any imminent danger here.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:17 AM on July 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
Self-defence requires imminent danger. Not just "he says he's going to kill people later and we know he totally would because he's done it before" but "he's about to kill someone if we don't do something right this minute."
And you think he would have surrendered instead of coming out guns-blazing?
If and when he had come out guns-blazing or (or gun pointed), it would have been self-defense to kill him then and nobody would question it. But "that surely would have happened a few hours or days down the line" even if we knew it for sure, is not imminent danger. Incidentally, we don't know it for sure. I think the most useful physical need cops could have leveraged was sleep. Keep him awake for 3 days.
Anyway, these arguments about his coming out guns blazing or detonating bombs don't make much sense when you think about the fact that they drove a bomb at him. Do you think those bomb robots move at a mile per second? He would have easily seen it coming at him. If you think hunger/thirst/exhaustion would cause him to fire or detonate bombs, why wouldn't you also think that driving a bomb at him would have the same effect? It's the fact that they had to drive a bomb at him slowly and apparently thought this a safe thing to do that makes me doubt there was any imminent danger here.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:17 AM on July 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
It's the fact that they had to drive a bomb at him slowly and apparently thought this a safe thing to do...
I've been wondering about this. Why didn't he react to the bomb-bot? Did they tell him it was delivering water, food, a note? Or he did but couldn't stop it from getting close. Have I missed details on how that went down?
posted by chris24 at 7:24 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been wondering about this. Why didn't he react to the bomb-bot? Did they tell him it was delivering water, food, a note? Or he did but couldn't stop it from getting close. Have I missed details on how that went down?
posted by chris24 at 7:24 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah. The police story so far has more holes in it than swiss cheese. A third of it is true, a third of it is good-faith fog of war misinformation and a third of it is lies.
We don't know which third is which. We almost never find out completely. We have learned not to trust the people we have asked to protect us: we have learned not to trust what they say and not to trust what they do.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:30 AM on July 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
We don't know which third is which. We almost never find out completely. We have learned not to trust the people we have asked to protect us: we have learned not to trust what they say and not to trust what they do.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:30 AM on July 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
Why didn't he react to the bomb-bot?
He probably did, at least by firing at it. Being a bot, it didn't much matter.
But yeah, now would be the time for news organizations to get the answers to these questions. I'm guessing they will, but it might not come out for a year or so in some New York Times exclusive.
Yes, the fact that police probably won't provide a timeline with a week is troubling.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:41 AM on July 9, 2016
He probably did, at least by firing at it. Being a bot, it didn't much matter.
But yeah, now would be the time for news organizations to get the answers to these questions. I'm guessing they will, but it might not come out for a year or so in some New York Times exclusive.
Yes, the fact that police probably won't provide a timeline with a week is troubling.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:41 AM on July 9, 2016
I really, really wish we could stop talking about the robot in this context. The robot raises some serious questions about the intersection of robotics, the military and policing and scares the hell out of me for the future, because it's always a situation where things seem confusing and ambiguous that starts the normalization process. But I feel like feelings about the robot are standing in for people's other strong feelings about this terrible thing.
Minnesota mefites, there's a protest tomorrow from 2 -4 on Silver Lake Road, here:
https://www.facebook.com/events/1657969004524444/
I can't tell who's organized it - it does not appear to be a BLM thing. But I think it's going to be very large. If it is like the very large protests for Jamar Clarke (and of course, I can say "if it is like the very large protests for other people who were shot by the cops in the last year) it will be large, slow-moving and safe. (That is not a promise, but a guess based on some experience.)
If you want to go to one but have been uncertain, this might be one to go to - I assume it's been set for Sunday afternoon so people will be coming from church, it's daylight, there's lead time, etc. If it is like big marches often are, here is what I expect:
Bring some water, some cash if you like because people will probably be getting donations, your phone so you can keep connected with your people (it's easy to get separated in a very large march, but phones have fixed that), water, sunscreen, a snack if you get hangry, etc. Comfortable shoes in case there is marching.
It is okay to march part way and then decide that you are too tired and too far from your car and take off home. If a march starts, you don't have to march to the very end.
People will have little kids with them and also strollers - if you feel like participating for a little while and bringing a kid, that is common. (I mean, you can stay until you feel like your child is too tired, or you are too tired from the stroller, etc.)
There may be some signs being distributed, but you might want to make and bring your own. I don't always but I may get my act together this time. A sign stapled to a dowel will be easier to carry over a long distance, IME, than just a big piece of cardstock. You can make a sign out of a piece of cardstock or cardboard. If you have a dowel or a long paint-stirrer, etc, you can nail or staple the sign to it so you can hold it up.
All kinds of media both left and right have an interest in showing public protest as super militant and dangerous. While this is sometimes true, as a broad generality it is not, at least not around here. I have been to umpteen gazillion protests (although fewer in the last few years as work schedules have tightened up) and very few have been dangerous - and even with those, it was pretty well signaled in advance that they were going to be confrontational, and of those, it was very possible to keep your eyes open and leave early.
If you would like to go and have concerns you are welcome to memail me. I will probably be there unless something comes up.
posted by Frowner at 7:42 AM on July 9, 2016 [17 favorites]
Minnesota mefites, there's a protest tomorrow from 2 -4 on Silver Lake Road, here:
https://www.facebook.com/events/1657969004524444/
I can't tell who's organized it - it does not appear to be a BLM thing. But I think it's going to be very large. If it is like the very large protests for Jamar Clarke (and of course, I can say "if it is like the very large protests for other people who were shot by the cops in the last year) it will be large, slow-moving and safe. (That is not a promise, but a guess based on some experience.)
If you want to go to one but have been uncertain, this might be one to go to - I assume it's been set for Sunday afternoon so people will be coming from church, it's daylight, there's lead time, etc. If it is like big marches often are, here is what I expect:
Bring some water, some cash if you like because people will probably be getting donations, your phone so you can keep connected with your people (it's easy to get separated in a very large march, but phones have fixed that), water, sunscreen, a snack if you get hangry, etc. Comfortable shoes in case there is marching.
It is okay to march part way and then decide that you are too tired and too far from your car and take off home. If a march starts, you don't have to march to the very end.
People will have little kids with them and also strollers - if you feel like participating for a little while and bringing a kid, that is common. (I mean, you can stay until you feel like your child is too tired, or you are too tired from the stroller, etc.)
There may be some signs being distributed, but you might want to make and bring your own. I don't always but I may get my act together this time. A sign stapled to a dowel will be easier to carry over a long distance, IME, than just a big piece of cardstock. You can make a sign out of a piece of cardstock or cardboard. If you have a dowel or a long paint-stirrer, etc, you can nail or staple the sign to it so you can hold it up.
All kinds of media both left and right have an interest in showing public protest as super militant and dangerous. While this is sometimes true, as a broad generality it is not, at least not around here. I have been to umpteen gazillion protests (although fewer in the last few years as work schedules have tightened up) and very few have been dangerous - and even with those, it was pretty well signaled in advance that they were going to be confrontational, and of those, it was very possible to keep your eyes open and leave early.
If you would like to go and have concerns you are welcome to memail me. I will probably be there unless something comes up.
posted by Frowner at 7:42 AM on July 9, 2016 [17 favorites]
Note: not all protests are marches, I have no notion if there will be marching. Maybe it will just be speeches and chanting.
Also, if you don't like a chant you don't have to chant it. (There are a couple that I always sit out, as I don't agree with the framing or else they have bad memories for me - "the people united will never be defeated" brings up too many memories of defeat for me now, I feel too cynical when I try to chant.)
posted by Frowner at 7:44 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, if you don't like a chant you don't have to chant it. (There are a couple that I always sit out, as I don't agree with the framing or else they have bad memories for me - "the people united will never be defeated" brings up too many memories of defeat for me now, I feel too cynical when I try to chant.)
posted by Frowner at 7:44 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I feel like feelings about the robot are standing in for people's other strong feelings about this terrible thing.
I don't think we are talking about the robot. I think we're talking about the police killing someone and whether killing that person was necessary or justified. The robot comes up because it suggests some reasons to think it was or wasn't necessary or justified, but it's not really ABOUT the robot. And the killing and its necessity or justification is exactly one of the things people have strong feelings about.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:46 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't think we are talking about the robot. I think we're talking about the police killing someone and whether killing that person was necessary or justified. The robot comes up because it suggests some reasons to think it was or wasn't necessary or justified, but it's not really ABOUT the robot. And the killing and its necessity or justification is exactly one of the things people have strong feelings about.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:46 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
And one more: if you are busing in, allow extra time. Sometimes the buses are very crowded for protests, sometimes they aren't. I usually like to bus and then walk if I can - that is, not try to take the bus that goes right there but take one that goes 1/2 mile or so away, or get off early and walk. This means that if the buses are getting tangled in the protest preparation you are not stuck yourself.
posted by Frowner at 7:48 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 7:48 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think we are talking about the robot.
Yeah, I was about to post a similar thing. When I posted my question, it was less about the robot and more about the decision to kill a black suspect and how and why they did it. How they did it can maybe give us more clarity on the the supposed why.
posted by chris24 at 7:54 AM on July 9, 2016
Yeah, I was about to post a similar thing. When I posted my question, it was less about the robot and more about the decision to kill a black suspect and how and why they did it. How they did it can maybe give us more clarity on the the supposed why.
posted by chris24 at 7:54 AM on July 9, 2016
I find it problematic that the police decided to kill a suspect, hours after the shooting had stopped, when it appears as though it was a contained situation. Here's the thing, cops aren't supposed to be executioners. That is not their mandate, and yet...
The robot is nothing but the tool they used to kill him. It's problematic because it seems so calculating and war like, and at the same time so impersonal...they exterminated this suspect. We don't know why they chose this method, we will never know, they will never tell us, and we will never know if this was the actual shooter, or the only shooter, or if there was a conspiracy, or any of the other data we would have if the Dallas pd hadn't chosen to load up a delivery system with c4, and blown the suspect into bits.
I find death by remote control problematic. I find execution in the name of expediency problematic. I find the fog of war excuse problematic. Cops aren't supposed to deliver vigilante justice, no matter how much they think the perp deserves to die.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:08 AM on July 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
The robot is nothing but the tool they used to kill him. It's problematic because it seems so calculating and war like, and at the same time so impersonal...they exterminated this suspect. We don't know why they chose this method, we will never know, they will never tell us, and we will never know if this was the actual shooter, or the only shooter, or if there was a conspiracy, or any of the other data we would have if the Dallas pd hadn't chosen to load up a delivery system with c4, and blown the suspect into bits.
I find death by remote control problematic. I find execution in the name of expediency problematic. I find the fog of war excuse problematic. Cops aren't supposed to deliver vigilante justice, no matter how much they think the perp deserves to die.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:08 AM on July 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
Call me a failure at pacifism, but killing an active shooter seems a pretty explicable decision since they are an active shooter.
posted by Artw at 8:09 AM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:09 AM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
an active shooter seems a pretty explicable decision since they are an active shooter.
And if he was an active shooter at the time, I agree. 'He was still shooting and we were pinned down so we sent in the bot' is very different than 'At the end of a long, tense negotiation, the suspect mentioned he was thirsty, so instead of using that weakness to hopefully talk him down, we told him we were sending water via the bot and blew him up instead.'
posted by chris24 at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
And if he was an active shooter at the time, I agree. 'He was still shooting and we were pinned down so we sent in the bot' is very different than 'At the end of a long, tense negotiation, the suspect mentioned he was thirsty, so instead of using that weakness to hopefully talk him down, we told him we were sending water via the bot and blew him up instead.'
posted by chris24 at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
When does an active shooter become inactive? I'd say that "surrounded by cops and no longer actively shooting" is a step along that spectrum.
posted by Etrigan at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
An active shooter who has taken cover and paused is still an active shooter. You don't give them a chance to reload and go out in one last burst of glory when they are already on their going out on a burst of glory kick.
posted by Artw at 8:20 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:20 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
When does an active shooter become inactive? I'd say that "surrounded by cops and no longer actively shooting" is a step along that spectrum.
Supposedly (based on the perhaps inaccurate initial reports; they also thought there were multiple shooters at first, so these aren't reports that can be taken as gospel) there was a firefight with police after they cornered him. That is a situation where him stopping shooting temporarily isn't much of a step towards inactive. And, again if the reports are at all accurate, him saying things about ending things and taking police with him does not suggest inactivity either, and in fact suggests an active threat that is not contained.
It will take time for the full information to come out and it might turn all of this upside down. But just going off of what has been said so far, this has the appearance to me of justified use of force.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Supposedly (based on the perhaps inaccurate initial reports; they also thought there were multiple shooters at first, so these aren't reports that can be taken as gospel) there was a firefight with police after they cornered him. That is a situation where him stopping shooting temporarily isn't much of a step towards inactive. And, again if the reports are at all accurate, him saying things about ending things and taking police with him does not suggest inactivity either, and in fact suggests an active threat that is not contained.
It will take time for the full information to come out and it might turn all of this upside down. But just going off of what has been said so far, this has the appearance to me of justified use of force.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
See, for me, I am more concerned by how things got to the point that they did. It seems like once you have a very skilled sniper who has already killed some people and who is in an open-air concrete structure, you're well over into the realm of the unprecedented, for one thing. And you're talking about a police force that is already a militarized institution. I take it for granted that the cops have lied about what happened, but I also think that anything that happens by the time you are in that situation is going to be utterly, utterly fucked up.
For me personally, the idea that there's an intervention into that situation that does not begin months beforehand and involve changing the police seems like a misreading. The police could have gassed him, the police could have waited him out until he fell asleep, the police could have starved him out....no, the police could not, because the conditions that produced the police and the sniper preclude those actions.
posted by Frowner at 8:25 AM on July 9, 2016 [27 favorites]
For me personally, the idea that there's an intervention into that situation that does not begin months beforehand and involve changing the police seems like a misreading. The police could have gassed him, the police could have waited him out until he fell asleep, the police could have starved him out....no, the police could not, because the conditions that produced the police and the sniper preclude those actions.
posted by Frowner at 8:25 AM on July 9, 2016 [27 favorites]
As usual I hope Frowner's is the last word on this.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:30 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:30 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
For people wondering how to support police reform and help end police violence:
FB link to list of actions
Same info re-posted to Medium
Campaign Zero
Scoll down for their legislation map which tracks what states have, are considering, or have not passed laws addressing police violence. It includes an easy way to check how your representatives have voted and contact info for them.
ACLU community action manual for fighting police violence
posted by (Over) Thinking at 8:31 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
FB link to list of actions
Same info re-posted to Medium
Campaign Zero
Scoll down for their legislation map which tracks what states have, are considering, or have not passed laws addressing police violence. It includes an easy way to check how your representatives have voted and contact info for them.
ACLU community action manual for fighting police violence
posted by (Over) Thinking at 8:31 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
That is true.
The point at which you can stop the car crashing into the earth is only before the edge of the cliff.
Once airbound we are just arguing about repealing the law of gravity as we descend at nine point five meters per second per second.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:32 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
The point at which you can stop the car crashing into the earth is only before the edge of the cliff.
Once airbound we are just arguing about repealing the law of gravity as we descend at nine point five meters per second per second.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:32 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
When you need a break from grief, critique, debate, etc., have a nourishing bowl of #blackmanjoy.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:32 AM on July 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:32 AM on July 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, as above, we're going around in circles speculating on the "what if the endgame went down like this" particulars - gonna ask that we hold off on further rounds of that until more info comes out.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:34 AM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:34 AM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
cortex: I think being aware of the context from which folks' anger and at times infelicity of expression about the state of cops-shooting-citizens is coming is part of getting through a conversation like this.
In that context, police have killed 11 citizens in just the first three days of this week. So far this year police are killing an average of three citizens per day.
The killing of five police officers is a tragedy. The killing of three citizens a day by police is just a statistic.
posted by JackFlash at 9:04 AM on July 9, 2016 [25 favorites]
In that context, police have killed 11 citizens in just the first three days of this week. So far this year police are killing an average of three citizens per day.
The killing of five police officers is a tragedy. The killing of three citizens a day by police is just a statistic.
posted by JackFlash at 9:04 AM on July 9, 2016 [25 favorites]
N.Y. Attorney General probes video of Delrawn Small being shot by off-duty cop within seconds of approaching officer's car
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 AM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 AM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
just a statistic
Right which brings us full circle once again. We are not statistics, we are lives that matter with bodies that can be broken and that are being broken and that have been broken.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:14 AM on July 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
Right which brings us full circle once again. We are not statistics, we are lives that matter with bodies that can be broken and that are being broken and that have been broken.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:14 AM on July 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
FWIW, here is the video (grainy, but clear) of the Delwran Small shooting. Very clear that the NYPD officer was lying about being punched repeatedly. Small approaches the car (after being cut off, while driving with his wife and children), apparently shouting, and the driver, an off-duty cop, shoots him point blank.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:25 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:25 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
A note left at the school where Philando Castile worked.
Absolutely heartbreaking.
posted by AFABulous at 9:32 AM on July 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
Absolutely heartbreaking.
posted by AFABulous at 9:32 AM on July 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
The photographer behind the emotional Dallas shooting image is an intern—but he’s no novice
After Dallas - "There was no link between those peacefully protesting the week’s police shootings in Dallas and Mr. Johnson’s hate crime, nor, of course, between the officers who shot Mr. Sterling and Mr. Castile and those who died serving as peace officers. But the connections between the three shootings nonetheless have deep roots in the American soil. As a culture we have too often chosen to address our problems with violence, even as we continue to make guns widely available so that citizens can do the same."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
After Dallas - "There was no link between those peacefully protesting the week’s police shootings in Dallas and Mr. Johnson’s hate crime, nor, of course, between the officers who shot Mr. Sterling and Mr. Castile and those who died serving as peace officers. But the connections between the three shootings nonetheless have deep roots in the American soil. As a culture we have too often chosen to address our problems with violence, even as we continue to make guns widely available so that citizens can do the same."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:44 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Lucien Novak, 2, and La'Nae Hartford, 5, share flowers at Lee Circle at the New Orleans protest in solidarity for #AltonSterling. Photo by Maggie Andresen @shutterbabe_photo
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:50 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:50 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
Dallas is a tragedy for all of us – and shouldn't shut down calls for justice
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dear Mom, Dad, Uncle, Auntie: Black Lives Matter to Us, Too
Background on this letter/translations/media
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:17 AM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
Background on this letter/translations/media
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:17 AM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
Thought this was an informative piece about the Dallas police chief David Brown and his attempts at reforming the local force.
posted by threeturtles at 12:40 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by threeturtles at 12:40 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
An important Minneapolis St Paul update:
There's some kind of problem with the march called for tomorrow - see here.
BLM is not involved, there's no involvement from the other people working on this, the people they say they are working with don't know about it, the march organizers have not been forthcoming about who they are. The local IWW (African People's Caucus folks have spoken at BLM stuff, local IWWs have attended a bunch of these) is disavowing and asking that people not go. No word from BLM yet, but I would say check BLM MPLS's page for updates and don't go unless things change.
It could be someone who is merely presumptuous and badly organized - that happens.
It could be an actual troll job that is intended to set up something bad.
Either way - hold off.
When I saw that it wasn't clear who was sponsoring it, that should have tipped me off and I should not have posted it. Follow BLM and associated writers/orgs for updates.
posted by Frowner at 1:26 PM on July 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
There's some kind of problem with the march called for tomorrow - see here.
BLM is not involved, there's no involvement from the other people working on this, the people they say they are working with don't know about it, the march organizers have not been forthcoming about who they are. The local IWW (African People's Caucus folks have spoken at BLM stuff, local IWWs have attended a bunch of these) is disavowing and asking that people not go. No word from BLM yet, but I would say check BLM MPLS's page for updates and don't go unless things change.
It could be someone who is merely presumptuous and badly organized - that happens.
It could be an actual troll job that is intended to set up something bad.
Either way - hold off.
When I saw that it wasn't clear who was sponsoring it, that should have tipped me off and I should not have posted it. Follow BLM and associated writers/orgs for updates.
posted by Frowner at 1:26 PM on July 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
University of Chicago assistant professor of sociology on black youth, social media and policing (links to facebook, but I thought it was sufficiently interesting)
posted by maggiemaggie at 1:40 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by maggiemaggie at 1:40 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
It could be an actual troll job that is intended to set up something bad.
Ugh, that's terrible. I was really hoping that everyone invoking the spirit of COINTELPRO were overreacting.
posted by murphy slaw at 1:55 PM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ugh, that's terrible. I was really hoping that everyone invoking the spirit of COINTELPRO were overreacting.
posted by murphy slaw at 1:55 PM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's some kind of problem with the march called for tomorrow - see here. BLM is not involved, there's no involvement from the other people working on this, the people they say they are working with don't know about it, the march organizers have not been forthcoming about who they are. The local IWW (African People's Caucus folks have spoken at BLM stuff, local IWWs have attended a bunch of these) is disavowing and asking that people not go. No word from BLM yet, but I would say check BLM MPLS's page for updates and don't go unless things change. It could be someone who is merely presumptuous and badly organized - that happens.
This was the case for the march here in Phoenix last night. The organizer claimed to be with BLM, but they publicly disavowed the event. The person is a known attention whore who has shown in the past to care about personal fame over the well-being of protestors, and true to form, tried to lead the march to occupy the freeway right in time for the evening news. Luckily my friends who attended left before things got hairy, but an otherwise peaceful protest turned into a fight with riot gear and tear gas.
I'm glad I opted to stay home once I learned who was behind it, but I hate that plenty of people protesting in good faith can be endangered by an out-of-control ego.
posted by Superplin at 2:13 PM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
This was the case for the march here in Phoenix last night. The organizer claimed to be with BLM, but they publicly disavowed the event. The person is a known attention whore who has shown in the past to care about personal fame over the well-being of protestors, and true to form, tried to lead the march to occupy the freeway right in time for the evening news. Luckily my friends who attended left before things got hairy, but an otherwise peaceful protest turned into a fight with riot gear and tear gas.
I'm glad I opted to stay home once I learned who was behind it, but I hate that plenty of people protesting in good faith can be endangered by an out-of-control ego.
posted by Superplin at 2:13 PM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am so full of thoughts and confusion and grief lately. I'm an American, from Chicago, who moved to The Hague (Vrede en Recht, hoor!) two years ago. I feel like I am helpless in the face of things I need to be involved in helping.
It's incredible to actually live the difference between the collectivism here and the "got mine, fuck you" of back home. Like, I just completed my BHV training here, which is nothing more than a Red Cross-equivalent first aid/CPR/AED course for work (which, in fact, my boss suggested I take because I was complaining on Facebook on how I'd have to commute to Amsterdam to renew my Red Cross certifications in an English-language class, since I wasn't confident my Dutch is good enough to get through a course otherwise, and they only offer Dutch in The Hague), and as a result of my BHV'er status I can volunteer now as a buurthulpverlener, or neighborhood first aid helper, and if anyone in my neighborhood calls for an ambulance they'll page me and I can do CPR until the EMTs arrive, which has real statistical support for helping keep people alive. So I can help random people! Maybe keep another opa alive long enough to see through another year's annual Zwarte Piet fight. That's a good thing! That's a fucking brilliant thing, in fact!
But meanwhile, back home, at least from my friends and family POV, the wild west, "I'm the good guy with a gun" who's going to defend the sacred convenience store from the masked villain mindset still reigns supreme. I'm, as previously expressed, completely opposed to private gun ownership in America now. Sorry, America, but you lost gun privileges. So that's me. Nobody gets any goddamn guns anymore. But...what is my opinion worth? I vote, but I vote absentee, so effectively that doesn't matter. No one gives a shit about absentee voters unless there's a recount, and we all remember how that turned out last time. And I can't join a protest from here. What am I going to do, go to our own embassy here and put down some flowers for the dead, for the unrighteously executed, right before I picket tegen politiegeweld?
I just am so tired of Americans killing Americans, and so full of grief for the dead, and most especially for the unjustly dead -- for poor Philando Castile, executed for no goddamn reason anyone can possibly justify, executed for identifying himself as being a lawful possessor of one of the goddamn guns I wish no one had anymore -- and I feel so unable to do a goddamn thing to keep anyone else from dying!
I have so many feelings, and they have nowhere to go. Why, for the love of god, can we not all just stop killing?
posted by sldownard at 2:49 PM on July 9, 2016 [29 favorites]
It's incredible to actually live the difference between the collectivism here and the "got mine, fuck you" of back home. Like, I just completed my BHV training here, which is nothing more than a Red Cross-equivalent first aid/CPR/AED course for work (which, in fact, my boss suggested I take because I was complaining on Facebook on how I'd have to commute to Amsterdam to renew my Red Cross certifications in an English-language class, since I wasn't confident my Dutch is good enough to get through a course otherwise, and they only offer Dutch in The Hague), and as a result of my BHV'er status I can volunteer now as a buurthulpverlener, or neighborhood first aid helper, and if anyone in my neighborhood calls for an ambulance they'll page me and I can do CPR until the EMTs arrive, which has real statistical support for helping keep people alive. So I can help random people! Maybe keep another opa alive long enough to see through another year's annual Zwarte Piet fight. That's a good thing! That's a fucking brilliant thing, in fact!
But meanwhile, back home, at least from my friends and family POV, the wild west, "I'm the good guy with a gun" who's going to defend the sacred convenience store from the masked villain mindset still reigns supreme. I'm, as previously expressed, completely opposed to private gun ownership in America now. Sorry, America, but you lost gun privileges. So that's me. Nobody gets any goddamn guns anymore. But...what is my opinion worth? I vote, but I vote absentee, so effectively that doesn't matter. No one gives a shit about absentee voters unless there's a recount, and we all remember how that turned out last time. And I can't join a protest from here. What am I going to do, go to our own embassy here and put down some flowers for the dead, for the unrighteously executed, right before I picket tegen politiegeweld?
I just am so tired of Americans killing Americans, and so full of grief for the dead, and most especially for the unjustly dead -- for poor Philando Castile, executed for no goddamn reason anyone can possibly justify, executed for identifying himself as being a lawful possessor of one of the goddamn guns I wish no one had anymore -- and I feel so unable to do a goddamn thing to keep anyone else from dying!
I have so many feelings, and they have nowhere to go. Why, for the love of god, can we not all just stop killing?
posted by sldownard at 2:49 PM on July 9, 2016 [29 favorites]
Why, for the love of god, can we not all just stop killing?
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." -- Tommy Lee Jones, Agent Kay
posted by delfin at 3:54 PM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." -- Tommy Lee Jones, Agent Kay
posted by delfin at 3:54 PM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
Well said, sldownward, and I feel the same after living overseas for 10 years and trying to stay involved as an absentee voter.
I also completely agree about cutting off the gun addiction cold turkey, but doubt we'll get that far. I'd settle for reforms and a serious change of mindset. The stupid "bad guy with a gun" narrative is both naive and dangerous, but moreover it perpetuates the reactive approach to stopping violence rather than a proactive one. It like chemotherapy- you might stop the cancer, but it might cause death anyways because the system becomes so compromised.
The narrative needs to be less about stopping the bad guy with a gun, and more about helping them, predicting violent behavior, understanding that almost nobody is 100% bad, helping deescalate angry/troubled individuals, helping people find other less dangerous means of personal safety before they even decide to buy guns, etc. More guns achieve none of this, they just give other gun owners an itchier trigger finger and more paranoia.
posted by p3t3 at 4:47 PM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
I also completely agree about cutting off the gun addiction cold turkey, but doubt we'll get that far. I'd settle for reforms and a serious change of mindset. The stupid "bad guy with a gun" narrative is both naive and dangerous, but moreover it perpetuates the reactive approach to stopping violence rather than a proactive one. It like chemotherapy- you might stop the cancer, but it might cause death anyways because the system becomes so compromised.
The narrative needs to be less about stopping the bad guy with a gun, and more about helping them, predicting violent behavior, understanding that almost nobody is 100% bad, helping deescalate angry/troubled individuals, helping people find other less dangerous means of personal safety before they even decide to buy guns, etc. More guns achieve none of this, they just give other gun owners an itchier trigger finger and more paranoia.
posted by p3t3 at 4:47 PM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
Dallas police headquarters on lockdown after threat
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:55 PM on July 9, 2016
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:55 PM on July 9, 2016
BBC: Dallas police say they have heightened security at their headquarters after receiving an anonymous threat, two days after the deadly shooting in the city.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:14 PM on July 9, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:14 PM on July 9, 2016
When Philando Castile saw the flashing lights in his rearview mirror the night he got shot, it wasn’t unusual. He had been pulled over at least 52 times in recent years in and around the Twin Cities and given citations for minor offenses including speeding, driving without a muffler and not wearing a seat belt.
He was assessed at least $6,588 in fines and fees, although more than half of the total 86 violations were dismissed, court records show.
Was Castile an especially bad driver or just unlucky? Or was he targeted by officers who single out black motorists like him for such stops, as several of his family members have alleged?
posted by futz at 6:26 PM on July 9, 2016 [30 favorites]
He was assessed at least $6,588 in fines and fees, although more than half of the total 86 violations were dismissed, court records show.
Was Castile an especially bad driver or just unlucky? Or was he targeted by officers who single out black motorists like him for such stops, as several of his family members have alleged?
posted by futz at 6:26 PM on July 9, 2016 [30 favorites]
More on the Letters for Black Lives crowdsourced translation & outreach project launched by Asian-American activists (since roomthreeseventeen's direct links above are breaking sometimes because the googledocs are getting so much traffic).
If this letter resonates with you, we encourage you to share it with your elders. It is currently being translated into the following languages: Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Farsi, French, German, Hindi, Hmong, Indonesian, Japanese, Korean, Khmer/Cambodian, Portuguese-Brazilian, Punjabi, Sinhala, Spanish, Tagalog, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Urdu, Vietnamese.
There's now a twitter account for coordination here. An Uzbek translation is also underway and looking for support.
posted by karayel at 7:07 PM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
If this letter resonates with you, we encourage you to share it with your elders. It is currently being translated into the following languages: Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Farsi, French, German, Hindi, Hmong, Indonesian, Japanese, Korean, Khmer/Cambodian, Portuguese-Brazilian, Punjabi, Sinhala, Spanish, Tagalog, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Urdu, Vietnamese.
There's now a twitter account for coordination here. An Uzbek translation is also underway and looking for support.
posted by karayel at 7:07 PM on July 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
A brief update from the DPD gives details of the robot:
The robot used was the Remotec, Model F-5, claw and arm extension with an explosive device of C4 plus “Det” cord.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:47 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Approximate weight of total charge was one pound.
A brief update from the DPD gives details of the robot:
I get the sort of thrill from this I used to get from scholarly studies of post-war infantry weapons and their efficacy.
I also get the deep shame and despair that was sadly absent from my nerderie pre-Sandy Hook.
This is a horror being unleashed upon us all. Make no mistake.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:11 PM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I get the sort of thrill from this I used to get from scholarly studies of post-war infantry weapons and their efficacy.
I also get the deep shame and despair that was sadly absent from my nerderie pre-Sandy Hook.
This is a horror being unleashed upon us all. Make no mistake.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:11 PM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well said sldownward. I feel the same way (recently relocated back to the US after a few years in Germany), for the first couple of months I was honestly a little freaked out that *anyone* could be legally packing heat. Can't say I've gotten used to it.
Personally I'd like to ban all personal ownership of guns period - we're obviously not mature enough as a country to handle it - but I know it'll never happen. Failing that, at least some really draconian restrictions. But at this point I don't have much hope for our country. The sheer amount of gun obsession and NRA stickers around here is mind-boggling, and I'm in a pretty upscale, urban area. It's like people are completely incapable of being logical about guns here.
I don't know, this whole thing is just so depressing.
posted by photo guy at 8:21 PM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Personally I'd like to ban all personal ownership of guns period - we're obviously not mature enough as a country to handle it - but I know it'll never happen. Failing that, at least some really draconian restrictions. But at this point I don't have much hope for our country. The sheer amount of gun obsession and NRA stickers around here is mind-boggling, and I'm in a pretty upscale, urban area. It's like people are completely incapable of being logical about guns here.
I don't know, this whole thing is just so depressing.
posted by photo guy at 8:21 PM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Smoke bombs from St. Paul police didn't disperse #blacklivesmatter protesters @StarTribune
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 PM on July 9, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 PM on July 9, 2016
Related roomthreeseventeen's comment, Live stream from BLM protest in St Paul, MN (audio isn't great).
posted by nathan_teske at 8:45 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nathan_teske at 8:45 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
BLM activist DeRay Mckesson and other protestors in Baton Rouge have been arrested while marching peacefully. Video here.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:19 PM on July 9, 2016
posted by murphy slaw at 9:19 PM on July 9, 2016
In St. Paul, tear gas on the crowd on the freeway and several arrests. People now sitting on the freeway in rows with linked arms.
posted by mochapickle at 9:23 PM on July 9, 2016
posted by mochapickle at 9:23 PM on July 9, 2016
DeRay's video shows him complying with instructions right up until he's tackled to the ground from behind.
Does Baton Rouge PD have actual written use of force guidelines? Or is that page in the manual nothing but shrug emojis?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:00 PM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Does Baton Rouge PD have actual written use of force guidelines? Or is that page in the manual nothing but shrug emojis?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:00 PM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
It sounds like the deck is absurdly stacked in favor of the police in LA. Even if you suspect that your arresting officer is violating department policy, they aren't required to identify themselves to you or provide a badge number, so good luck filing a complaint later. The BLM protesters are reporting on Twitter that when they asked their arresting officers for their names they were told "police officer" and nothing further.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:19 PM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 10:19 PM on July 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Last night on a Fox News program, a broadly grinning and gloating J. Christian Adams claimed that Micah Johnson was identified by Quanell X as a member of the New Black Panther Party. (Which of course would appear to be contradicted by Johnson's own claim that he was "not affiliated with any groups".)
posted by XMLicious at 11:10 PM on July 9, 2016
posted by XMLicious at 11:10 PM on July 9, 2016
This backs up my contention that making sure Micah Johnson was not taken alive would ensure that a lot of the truth about the shooter would either never be known or be distorted beyond all recognition.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:30 PM on July 9, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:30 PM on July 9, 2016 [21 favorites]
I was at the St. Paul protest. I just got back. I assume a bunch of people were arrested in the endgame.
First, I want to say that the MPLS Black Lives Matter organizers are amazing. Brave, passionate, inspiring, really know how to read a crowd. If you hear any media talking smack about them, know that it's lies. Everyone was very on the mark at this event and it was organized very well.
It started out at the governor's mansion, which is on a very swanky, broad street in a swanky neighborhood in St. Paul. The organizers spoke a little, but mostly got the crowd going instead of losing inertia to having fifty million speeches. (There had been some speeches before the rally, but that was mostly community members and was pretty interesting.) There were hundreds of people - majority white, since this is a very white city, but many Black marchers and other POC. Mostly young like teens and twenties, a few older people, a few retirement age people.
The organizers had a truck and a couple of sound systems. All the people who spoke and led chants were really good. Mica, one of the Black Lives Matter organizers, used her voice in really amazing, hypnotic, powerful ways - chants, sort of spoken riffing that was not quite chant, not quite poetry. She - supported by others - was a charismatic heart to the protest.
We marched in the street down by the freeway. I was midway back when everyone started running. There were a bunch of cops with riot batons by the freeway entrance, but people got onto the freeway anyway.
The sound system was playing Beyonce - if you are a person who has not yet gotten the point of Beyonce, which I think to a degree I was, hearing "Freedom" at a protest will get you the point right quick.
It was a bright evening, blue sky, empty freeway. The organizers asked us all to march with our fists in the air. It was really something.
When the organizers announced that everyone who didn't want to or could not get arrested should get off the freeway, I did, not understanding that they were not actually committing to getting arrested. I went up with a lot of other people and looked down by the freeway fence.
They had the white people go on the outside to protect the Black protesters. There was a lot more music and chanting and milling. Both sides of the highway were blocked. The Native dancers with the big feather regalia performed.
The cops kept telling people to disperse but nothing happened. It got dark.
The cops came to the other side of the freeway where there were fewer people. I was really scared that everyone was going to get beat up. It's interesting - I think the cops use tear gas more and beatings less now. It was all beatings and pepper spray when I was younger - the personal touch.
But when the police came, the crowd was so big that it backed the police up! Right down the freeway! They brought the arrest bus but drove it away!
The police launched some tear gas into the crowd periodically. I was still watching with a lot of other people. The sound system played "Purple Rain" and everyone started singing. It was a really beautiful, really Minnesota, really Black Minnesota moment.
I heard that the police gassed the car that was trying to get the little kids out - there were some little kids in the march who had come with parents. I don't know if it was targeting the kids on purpose or just general viciousness.
Mica was the main speaker still, and she kept saying "this is not illegal, this is Black Lives Matter" - it was like listening to a revolutionary radio call sign.
People had loosened up parts of the fence - it wasn't in really good condition to start with - and many people were going up and down to the highway. For very shame I felt that I needed to go down onto the highway for a while, which I did until there was too much tear gas. Someone gave me a bandana, which was really nice of them and helped a little.
There was some kind of final clash with the cops after most people had fled up off the highway. I really hope no one was too badly hurt - they've all been arrested, of course.
There were police helicopters and we all saw a low-flying drone - it was creepy, like a lego spider monster. I did not see any rubber bullets, just tear gas and some kind of flash bang things.
I went home after that but many people are still at the governor's mansion.
A thing here is that Minnesota is so, so white. I feel like this makes it harder to get people to sympathize with the issues raised by BLM. I feel like it's actually very smart of them to go for fairly dramatic and fairly pain-in-the-ass tactics like shutting down the highway, because mere moral suasion isn't going to cut it here.
There was a guy who talked before the rally started - he was saying that when he was little, his mother was taking drugs and he had to steal food for himself and his brothers. He grew up and got into some kinds of trouble with the police. But what really struck me was how he said that he wanted to be free like white people, how white people had it so good because they could just walk around doing whatever. Which made me feel like, fuck this country, fuck the slavocracy, fuck this system, fuck it all rotten.
What I notice about Black Lives Matter and the Black Liberation Project and the other local things that have come into being in the last couple years is that they have brought the dead words back to life. I have never in all my days said "I believe that we will win" at a protest and meant it, but I felt it tonight. I do believe that we will win.
posted by Frowner at 11:58 PM on July 9, 2016 [115 favorites]
First, I want to say that the MPLS Black Lives Matter organizers are amazing. Brave, passionate, inspiring, really know how to read a crowd. If you hear any media talking smack about them, know that it's lies. Everyone was very on the mark at this event and it was organized very well.
It started out at the governor's mansion, which is on a very swanky, broad street in a swanky neighborhood in St. Paul. The organizers spoke a little, but mostly got the crowd going instead of losing inertia to having fifty million speeches. (There had been some speeches before the rally, but that was mostly community members and was pretty interesting.) There were hundreds of people - majority white, since this is a very white city, but many Black marchers and other POC. Mostly young like teens and twenties, a few older people, a few retirement age people.
The organizers had a truck and a couple of sound systems. All the people who spoke and led chants were really good. Mica, one of the Black Lives Matter organizers, used her voice in really amazing, hypnotic, powerful ways - chants, sort of spoken riffing that was not quite chant, not quite poetry. She - supported by others - was a charismatic heart to the protest.
We marched in the street down by the freeway. I was midway back when everyone started running. There were a bunch of cops with riot batons by the freeway entrance, but people got onto the freeway anyway.
The sound system was playing Beyonce - if you are a person who has not yet gotten the point of Beyonce, which I think to a degree I was, hearing "Freedom" at a protest will get you the point right quick.
It was a bright evening, blue sky, empty freeway. The organizers asked us all to march with our fists in the air. It was really something.
When the organizers announced that everyone who didn't want to or could not get arrested should get off the freeway, I did, not understanding that they were not actually committing to getting arrested. I went up with a lot of other people and looked down by the freeway fence.
They had the white people go on the outside to protect the Black protesters. There was a lot more music and chanting and milling. Both sides of the highway were blocked. The Native dancers with the big feather regalia performed.
The cops kept telling people to disperse but nothing happened. It got dark.
The cops came to the other side of the freeway where there were fewer people. I was really scared that everyone was going to get beat up. It's interesting - I think the cops use tear gas more and beatings less now. It was all beatings and pepper spray when I was younger - the personal touch.
But when the police came, the crowd was so big that it backed the police up! Right down the freeway! They brought the arrest bus but drove it away!
The police launched some tear gas into the crowd periodically. I was still watching with a lot of other people. The sound system played "Purple Rain" and everyone started singing. It was a really beautiful, really Minnesota, really Black Minnesota moment.
I heard that the police gassed the car that was trying to get the little kids out - there were some little kids in the march who had come with parents. I don't know if it was targeting the kids on purpose or just general viciousness.
Mica was the main speaker still, and she kept saying "this is not illegal, this is Black Lives Matter" - it was like listening to a revolutionary radio call sign.
People had loosened up parts of the fence - it wasn't in really good condition to start with - and many people were going up and down to the highway. For very shame I felt that I needed to go down onto the highway for a while, which I did until there was too much tear gas. Someone gave me a bandana, which was really nice of them and helped a little.
There was some kind of final clash with the cops after most people had fled up off the highway. I really hope no one was too badly hurt - they've all been arrested, of course.
There were police helicopters and we all saw a low-flying drone - it was creepy, like a lego spider monster. I did not see any rubber bullets, just tear gas and some kind of flash bang things.
I went home after that but many people are still at the governor's mansion.
A thing here is that Minnesota is so, so white. I feel like this makes it harder to get people to sympathize with the issues raised by BLM. I feel like it's actually very smart of them to go for fairly dramatic and fairly pain-in-the-ass tactics like shutting down the highway, because mere moral suasion isn't going to cut it here.
There was a guy who talked before the rally started - he was saying that when he was little, his mother was taking drugs and he had to steal food for himself and his brothers. He grew up and got into some kinds of trouble with the police. But what really struck me was how he said that he wanted to be free like white people, how white people had it so good because they could just walk around doing whatever. Which made me feel like, fuck this country, fuck the slavocracy, fuck this system, fuck it all rotten.
What I notice about Black Lives Matter and the Black Liberation Project and the other local things that have come into being in the last couple years is that they have brought the dead words back to life. I have never in all my days said "I believe that we will win" at a protest and meant it, but I felt it tonight. I do believe that we will win.
posted by Frowner at 11:58 PM on July 9, 2016 [115 favorites]
Also, I am going to get more involved with this stuff. I wasn't really plugged in enough to be useful in re jail support and so on, and I wish I'd stayed down on the highway the whole time - if I'd understood more about how this type of protest works around here, I totally could have.
posted by Frowner at 12:11 AM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 12:11 AM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Wow, holy shit, Frowner.
posted by lkc at 12:17 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by lkc at 12:17 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, believe you me, the people who were really in the thick of it experienced a lot more than I did.
It really made me think of how fucked up and racist things are in this country. A lot of the young Black marchers were taking risks in ways that I really would not have even in my young day - getting really assertive with the police, going up close, etc. It really made me see how much rage and despair and how much deprivation you'd undergo to put you in a place where you're just like "oh, fuck this, whatever, I'm not afraid". I was afraid, but that's because I'm in the system enough to have something to lose.
The people who were really brave and cool-headed were the organzers, and I bet they're getting hassled in jail as we speak. I think the governor - who is not such a bad old stick, for a politician, if you like that sort of thing - has sent some messages that they were not to be too rough with people, actually, because I've seen a lot worse beat downs in my time.
But seriously, it was inspiring. I feel like I really got, for just a moment, what people are talking about when they say that the struggle is more important than your individual needs and wants. I really saw it for a little bit. I felt like I could get arrested and it would be okay.
(I mean, fundamentally, in re the tear gas, etc: I think tonight I finally got past some bad feelings I had from the RNC protests in 2008, but that aside, I've been going to protests for a gazillion years now, and while I like to leave before there's a lot of tear gas, it's not really as big a deal as it sounds.)
posted by Frowner at 12:26 AM on July 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
It really made me think of how fucked up and racist things are in this country. A lot of the young Black marchers were taking risks in ways that I really would not have even in my young day - getting really assertive with the police, going up close, etc. It really made me see how much rage and despair and how much deprivation you'd undergo to put you in a place where you're just like "oh, fuck this, whatever, I'm not afraid". I was afraid, but that's because I'm in the system enough to have something to lose.
The people who were really brave and cool-headed were the organzers, and I bet they're getting hassled in jail as we speak. I think the governor - who is not such a bad old stick, for a politician, if you like that sort of thing - has sent some messages that they were not to be too rough with people, actually, because I've seen a lot worse beat downs in my time.
But seriously, it was inspiring. I feel like I really got, for just a moment, what people are talking about when they say that the struggle is more important than your individual needs and wants. I really saw it for a little bit. I felt like I could get arrested and it would be okay.
(I mean, fundamentally, in re the tear gas, etc: I think tonight I finally got past some bad feelings I had from the RNC protests in 2008, but that aside, I've been going to protests for a gazillion years now, and while I like to leave before there's a lot of tear gas, it's not really as big a deal as it sounds.)
posted by Frowner at 12:26 AM on July 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
In Minnesota, it's still going on. Live video here: http://www.unicornriot.ninja/?page_id=216.
Unicorn Riot has been fantastic at covering BLM activities in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:30 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Unicorn Riot has been fantastic at covering BLM activities in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:30 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, there's still plenty of people at the mansion. I just felt really physically beat (since I Am An Old - especially in activist years, in activist years I'm actually dead), and since I was there by myself (everyone else had, like, weddings to attend this weekend) I felt that I would call it a night.
Unicorn Riot, also awesome.
(One thing that's weird and sort of depressing - I hardly saw anyone from my activist cohort, the people I was going to protests with when I was in my twenties and early thirties. With some people, they have kids now and have time constraints, but a lot of people have just dropped out. It's one thing to drop out when it's the same stupid pointless kinds of activist crap, but this is different.)
My throat is pretty sore from the tear gas, actually.
posted by Frowner at 12:35 AM on July 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Unicorn Riot, also awesome.
(One thing that's weird and sort of depressing - I hardly saw anyone from my activist cohort, the people I was going to protests with when I was in my twenties and early thirties. With some people, they have kids now and have time constraints, but a lot of people have just dropped out. It's one thing to drop out when it's the same stupid pointless kinds of activist crap, but this is different.)
My throat is pretty sore from the tear gas, actually.
posted by Frowner at 12:35 AM on July 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Frowner, don't forget to take care of yourself. I'm also 'old' in Activist Years - and physically disabled as well.
I found this tweet to be inspiring: "Please don't feel bad if you can't physically go out and protest. Do the best you can to support #BlackLivesMatter in any way possible."
For me, sometimes I can go to a protest or an action - but other days? All I can do is post on fora and retweet. It at least gets information out, especially on quick-moving stories like this. And with live video, it's even more powerful. And that's stuff that I can't do if I'm in a protest myself.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:42 AM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I found this tweet to be inspiring: "Please don't feel bad if you can't physically go out and protest. Do the best you can to support #BlackLivesMatter in any way possible."
For me, sometimes I can go to a protest or an action - but other days? All I can do is post on fora and retweet. It at least gets information out, especially on quick-moving stories like this. And with live video, it's even more powerful. And that's stuff that I can't do if I'm in a protest myself.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:42 AM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Approximate weight of total charge was one pound.
That's... well, "about a pound of C4" is what EOD used to blow up our anchor chain when we got the anchor stuck dangling and couldn't come back into port without dragging. It made the whole boat jump pretty good. Seems a bit excessive for this.
posted by ctmf at 12:55 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's... well, "about a pound of C4" is what EOD used to blow up our anchor chain when we got the anchor stuck dangling and couldn't come back into port without dragging. It made the whole boat jump pretty good. Seems a bit excessive for this.
posted by ctmf at 12:55 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I watched the freeway scene on the unicorn riot live stream. It was intense.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:55 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:55 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am eating a fudgesicle for my throat even as I type.
Yeah, honestly, while I was out there I was thinking that I could not wait to get home to tell metafilter about the protest. I feel like (I mean, maybe I'm just making this up) if I tell you-all here about this, people will take it seriously and it will make a difference.
It's really natural and correct that only some people will ever be able to go out and protest - many people can't physically, many people don't live in places where they can go to stuff, many people have home responsibilities, many people have anxieties, many people have logistical stuff where they can't even run the tiniest risk of arrest. But just talking about the issue and making it clear that you can have an attitude of protest is also hugely important. If politicians think it's just three hundred malcontents out there in the street, they will smash the malcontents. If they think that the people on the street represent many more who are at home, they may actually change their wicked ways.
posted by Frowner at 12:56 AM on July 10, 2016 [46 favorites]
Yeah, honestly, while I was out there I was thinking that I could not wait to get home to tell metafilter about the protest. I feel like (I mean, maybe I'm just making this up) if I tell you-all here about this, people will take it seriously and it will make a difference.
It's really natural and correct that only some people will ever be able to go out and protest - many people can't physically, many people don't live in places where they can go to stuff, many people have home responsibilities, many people have anxieties, many people have logistical stuff where they can't even run the tiniest risk of arrest. But just talking about the issue and making it clear that you can have an attitude of protest is also hugely important. If politicians think it's just three hundred malcontents out there in the street, they will smash the malcontents. If they think that the people on the street represent many more who are at home, they may actually change their wicked ways.
posted by Frowner at 12:56 AM on July 10, 2016 [46 favorites]
Frowner, much respect and many hugs.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:56 AM on July 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:56 AM on July 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Thanks! I do want to stress that there were many, many people there tonight braver and more committed than me - I feel like I could have done a lot more. (And that they just arrested a bunch more people...I guess in a few hours I'll see what the jail support plan is. No one is going to be processed and released for a while though unless I miss my guess.)
The freeway thing was kind of intense.
What I kept thinking was that it has been literally almost twenty years since I first went to a protest about a police shooting in MPLS.
I feel like I am experiencing layers - like, I read or talk to someone or hear someone speak about racism, and then I encounter something new and I feel like I've fallen into a new layer of understanding about how violent and horrible it is. Layer after layer, every time I feel like I see more of how pervasive it is, and how terribly it divides us and eviscerates our society, and how it wrongs innocent people.
posted by Frowner at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
The freeway thing was kind of intense.
What I kept thinking was that it has been literally almost twenty years since I first went to a protest about a police shooting in MPLS.
I feel like I am experiencing layers - like, I read or talk to someone or hear someone speak about racism, and then I encounter something new and I feel like I've fallen into a new layer of understanding about how violent and horrible it is. Layer after layer, every time I feel like I see more of how pervasive it is, and how terribly it divides us and eviscerates our society, and how it wrongs innocent people.
posted by Frowner at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
Violent arrests in Baton Rouge followed by white female officers pointing gun at unarmed protestors. #AltonSterling
What did we do before cell phone cameras?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:42 AM on July 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
What did we do before cell phone cameras?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:42 AM on July 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I saw a 99% protest in downtown Minneapolis a few years ago where they walked out into the street and blocked traffic. The police showed up and "arrested" everyone and they were really nice, almost apologetic about it. They were basically taken, one by one, into this little trailer in cuffs, spent a minute or two inside, and then came out the other side with the cuffs off and went home. Granted, that's Minneapolis where they had a city council election with instant run-off voting and the protesters were mostly (but not all) white and there weren't that many of them but at least SOME cops in Minnesota can do their jobs while being darn near supportive of the cause.
posted by VTX at 6:43 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by VTX at 6:43 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Blog: The Message Of Arresting @Deray In Baton Rouge
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:48 AM on July 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:48 AM on July 10, 2016
Wow. This AP picture of DeRay's arrest is just an amazing image in so many ways. He's obviously posing for the photographer but the fact that he can have the presence of mind to do that and to keep the hashtag front and center is impressive. He looks way more in control than the police holding him down do.
posted by octothorpe at 7:04 AM on July 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:04 AM on July 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
DeRay is amazing and has a bright future.
posted by zutalors! at 7:16 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 7:16 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Frowner, thanks so much! The sense of hope and engagement you got at that demo is similar to what I have experienced. And BLM needs the support all the more after Dallas. You are amazing!
We olds have to keep marching when we can.
posted by allthinky at 7:38 AM on July 10, 2016
We olds have to keep marching when we can.
posted by allthinky at 7:38 AM on July 10, 2016
What did we do before cell phone cameras?
Believed (or at least, couldn't effectively argue against the claim) that he "went for the officer's gun" or "was crazed on PCP and unstoppable", mostly.
posted by Etrigan at 8:01 AM on July 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Believed (or at least, couldn't effectively argue against the claim) that he "went for the officer's gun" or "was crazed on PCP and unstoppable", mostly.
posted by Etrigan at 8:01 AM on July 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
In the Turmoil Over Race and Policing, Children Pay a Steep Emotional Price: “As a mother, I have now been forced to raise a son who is going to remember what happened to his father,” said Quinyetta McMillon, the mother of the boy in Louisiana who sobbed over the death of his father, Alton Sterling. “That I can’t take away from him.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:16 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:16 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
What did we do before cell phone cameras?
As shown in the New Jersey case of Marcus Jeter cops are learning to game the recording system. As shown in the video, Marcus is sitting inside his car with his hands in the air and as the cop walks up he shouts "stop trying to get my gun" and "stop resisting" even before he reaches the car. Cops have learned to get on tape the magic words that justify any violent action. It was only a second dash cam that the officer didn't know about that revealed the lie.
posted by JackFlash at 8:35 AM on July 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
As shown in the New Jersey case of Marcus Jeter cops are learning to game the recording system. As shown in the video, Marcus is sitting inside his car with his hands in the air and as the cop walks up he shouts "stop trying to get my gun" and "stop resisting" even before he reaches the car. Cops have learned to get on tape the magic words that justify any violent action. It was only a second dash cam that the officer didn't know about that revealed the lie.
posted by JackFlash at 8:35 AM on July 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
Micah Johnson, an Army veteran, received instruction at the Academy of Combative Warrior Arts in the Dallas suburb of Richardson.
Academy of Combative Warrior Arts. What the hell. The U.S. is one sick society.
posted by JackFlash at 8:41 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Academy of Combative Warrior Arts. What the hell. The U.S. is one sick society.
posted by JackFlash at 8:41 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Between that photo of DeRay being arrested and this one the police are not doing themselves any favors in the PR department.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:54 AM on July 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 8:54 AM on July 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
Also, if you are looking for a place to give your money, if you check the BLM pages or twitter, in your cities they will probably have links to bail funds and jail support. (Or you can check out Louisiana's, MPLS's, etc) There's going to be various degrees of knock-on costs associated with the arrests, depending on how much the cities want to throw the book at people.
Here is an article about protests nationwide.
posted by Frowner at 8:54 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here is an article about protests nationwide.
posted by Frowner at 8:54 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This Twitter feed has some information on the Baton Rouge protests and how you can help if you are in the area.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:55 AM on July 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:55 AM on July 10, 2016
murphy slaw, that image is really powerful.
posted by prefpara at 8:59 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 8:59 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
murphy slaw, that image is amazing.
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:00 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:00 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sarah Kendzior wrote last year on the effects of arresting national activists on morale and policing in St. Louis. #FreeDeray - but don't forget about Minneapolis and Baton Rouge and the longterm effects of arrests and policing on local activists when public attention moves to the next horrifying police shooting.
posted by ChuraChura at 9:01 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 9:01 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm reluctant to link it here because it's a fundraiser, but there's a "Baton Rouge Bail Fund" page on Crowdrise, which I've never used. Does anyone know of the legitimacy of Crowdrise and/or the sourcing on this? Says it's organized by the Louisiana National Lawyers Guild?
I already threw money at Campaign Zero a couple days ago (and walked in Seattle, and read a lot, and got into fights with my own readers on my author blog...again...maybe not the best thing for a sci-fi writer, but whatever). Now I'm looking at this fundraiser and wondering whether this is the best use of my dollars. I want to help, but I also want to be smart and practical about it.
Quick use of Google neither assures me of legitimacy nor increases my doubts. Anyone know more?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:08 AM on July 10, 2016
I already threw money at Campaign Zero a couple days ago (and walked in Seattle, and read a lot, and got into fights with my own readers on my author blog...again...maybe not the best thing for a sci-fi writer, but whatever). Now I'm looking at this fundraiser and wondering whether this is the best use of my dollars. I want to help, but I also want to be smart and practical about it.
Quick use of Google neither assures me of legitimacy nor increases my doubts. Anyone know more?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:08 AM on July 10, 2016
Dallas Police Chief David Brown was on CNN's State of the Union (link to several snippets from the full show)Sunday morning and confirmed or noted several things according to this article in Time magazine:
- The standoff was two hours long.
- He approved the use of the 'bomb robot' and “I’ll do it again if presented with the same circumstances.”
- Johnson said he had bombs, which prompted the use of the "bomb robot" to end things quickly after he refused to surrender.
- he doesn't "give any quarter to critics who ask these types of questions from the comforts and safety away from the incident"
The Baton Rouge crowdrise fundraiser says it's operated by the National Lawyers' Guild, which provides legal observers and legal assistance at protests and advises people victimized by the police nationwide. It also looks like it has their LA phone number on it. My feeling is that it's legit, but I think you could call the LA NLG to check. I would be surprised if someone faked one up with the NLG stuff on it, since not everyone even knows about the NLG.
posted by Frowner at 9:15 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 9:15 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The of the CNN snippets indicates that the police were talking to Johnson over a telephone. Johnson says they're working on getting it transcribed and released to the public.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:16 AM on July 10, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:16 AM on July 10, 2016
Mod note: Two things: 1) Just flag the trolls, I will nuke them from orbit for you, you don't have to take their bait. 2) I know feelings are running very high, but try to avoid name-calling for the sake of name-calling.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:20 AM on July 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:20 AM on July 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
The NYT article linked above by octothorpe (here is the link again) also mentions and links to the crowdrise fundraiser, so I'm assuming it checks out:
The Louisiana National Lawyers Guild, which is providing legal support to protesters, set up an online fund-raiser aimed at raising money to bail out Mr. McKesson and several other protesters arrested in Baton Rouge.
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:23 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Louisiana National Lawyers Guild, which is providing legal support to protesters, set up an online fund-raiser aimed at raising money to bail out Mr. McKesson and several other protesters arrested in Baton Rouge.
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:23 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
As an additional point, 6 minutes ago Johnetta Elzie (well known) tweeted out the crowdrise link to the fundraiser, if you look at her timeline.
posted by cashman at 9:24 AM on July 10, 2016
posted by cashman at 9:24 AM on July 10, 2016
Johnetta tweeted about that CrowdRise fund, so it seems to be legit.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:25 AM on July 10, 2016
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:25 AM on July 10, 2016
Here's an iTunes link to the CNN State of the Union podcast episode that contains the DPD chief's interview in full (audio only).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:27 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:27 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The robot used was the Remotec, Model F-5, claw and arm extension with an explosive device of C4 plus “Det” cord.
Approximate weight of total charge was one pound.
I guess I'm cynical because I figured the suicide bomber-robot was only used due to the fact that the DPD didn't have any RPGs or close air support (or flamethrowers) available to them at the time. I imagine they might argue that they used what they had available, and that their budged should be adjusted going forward to ensure that they have a wider variety of response options available should the need arise again in the future. I wish I was kidding.
posted by some loser at 9:28 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Approximate weight of total charge was one pound.
I guess I'm cynical because I figured the suicide bomber-robot was only used due to the fact that the DPD didn't have any RPGs or close air support (or flamethrowers) available to them at the time. I imagine they might argue that they used what they had available, and that their budged should be adjusted going forward to ensure that they have a wider variety of response options available should the need arise again in the future. I wish I was kidding.
posted by some loser at 9:28 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
“I’ll [blow up a holed up suspect with a bomb] again if presented with the same circumstances.”
So, Dallas Police Chief David Brown is now judge, jury, and executioner. Got it.
Who knew that Dallas would turn out to be the actual site of Mega-City One?
posted by tocts at 9:43 AM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
So, Dallas Police Chief David Brown is now judge, jury, and executioner. Got it.
Who knew that Dallas would turn out to be the actual site of Mega-City One?
posted by tocts at 9:43 AM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Putting the jeweler's loupe over the c4 murder technique feels gross but I guess y'all want facts and feel the need to reiterate the acceptability of it. That police chief can use the "few good men defense" all day but it doesn't change the fact that they blew up a black man with a bomb. Granted said black man was terrorizing downtown, but we all saw how greeting terror with escalating force worked in Iraq. I expect more lone gunmen of all races to keep on terrorizing our nation because apparently instead of sayin "WHOA WTF PEOPLE?!?" We feel the need to beanplate the facts surrounding murder by C4. Where in the fuck did posse comititus go? Did we really just throw it away post 9-11?
The good news is that white supremacy IS dying, the bad news is that it means a lot of people are gonna needlessly suffer more violence at the hands of ignorant tacticians on every side of this struggle.
Assault weapons add fuel to this fire, but the NRA always said they served to protect us from government tyranny and the atrocious actions of Micah Johnson is what angry and oppressed people protecting themselves from tyranny looks like, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, this apparently is part of the integral design of our nation.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:56 AM on July 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
The good news is that white supremacy IS dying, the bad news is that it means a lot of people are gonna needlessly suffer more violence at the hands of ignorant tacticians on every side of this struggle.
Assault weapons add fuel to this fire, but the NRA always said they served to protect us from government tyranny and the atrocious actions of Micah Johnson is what angry and oppressed people protecting themselves from tyranny looks like, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, this apparently is part of the integral design of our nation.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:56 AM on July 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Things learned from the interview with DPD chief David Brown (audio podcast link available here):
- The peaceful march was kinda spontatenous, planning meetings indicated it would just be a gathering. So the police had to scramble to block off intersections, which basically left the cops exposed.
- Jake Tapper (the interviewer) mentioned that he had heard that the shooter demanded a black negotiator, and Brown confirmed that. But Brown was clearly angry that the information got out and pointedly mentioned that whoever was leaking that information was interfering with the investigation.
- But it didn't matter that the negotiator was black, the shooter just toyed with them.
- There were about 20 people carrying rifles, in cammo gear and bulletproof vest during the march/demonstration (which is totally legal in Texas). The three people detained and originally thought to be part of larger group with the shooter were part of these 20 people (not clear whether it's a single group or just 20 random people). Two have been released, one is still detained because he wasn't licensed to carry a firearm, a misdemeanor in Texas.
- The shooter was secreted behind a concrete corner, so there was no clear sniper shot.
- When Brown left for a press conference he told his team to come to get creative and come up with a plan to end the standoff. They came up with the plan and he approved it.
- The comment Brown made, about he doesn't "give any quarter to critics who ask these types of questions from the comforts and safety away from the incident" was in answer to Jake Tapper asking whether some other method could have been used that wouldn't have killed the shooter like "riot gas". Brown indicated that it wasn't worth his time to entertain those questions at the moment (I'm paraphrasing) and that with his own SWAT experience he felt he needed to trust his people on the ground, in the situation, to save their lives (he was in radio contact with them during the standoff). That debate is for a later discussion (again, I'm paraphrasing).
- The standoff was around two hours long.
- Officers consciously exposed themselves to gunfire so others could figure out where the shooter was.
- No officer called out sick the day after the shootings and Brown was very impressed by that.
- Pointedly said that some cops should not be cops and those people need to be found relieved of their job. The other "98%" are good cops.
- Asked that media, public officials and the community show support for police, who make all of 40K a year (in Dalls? Texas? Not clear).
- Refused to answer whether it was too easy for people to get guns in America, said that was up to policy makers to decide, his job was to serve.
- For anyone wanting to donate funds, dallasfoundation.org, atodallas.org/donate are the best sources for helping the families of those police who were killed.
FYI, C4 is used in bomb disposal to explode actual bombs, so its not odd that police would have it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:11 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:11 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
For those in the other L.A. -- I checked NLG-LA this AM before I even saw Frowner's suggestion (my mom put in some years as a legal lefty) and sadly they don't seem to have any BLM-LA involvement, past present or planned. It's all union support stuff, some anti-gentrification activity, their protest resources section is 'under construction' etc.
I messaged a lawyer friend active in MPLS to see if she had any suggestions for those of us out west.
for disambiguation:
This is NLG-Los Angeles -- http://www.nlg-la.org/
This is NLG-Louisiana -- https://www.facebook.com/Louisiana-Chapter-of-the-National-Lawyers-Guild-149325561751656/ [their nlgnola.org domain seems to be defunct]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:12 AM on July 10, 2016
I messaged a lawyer friend active in MPLS to see if she had any suggestions for those of us out west.
for disambiguation:
This is NLG-Los Angeles -- http://www.nlg-la.org/
This is NLG-Louisiana -- https://www.facebook.com/Louisiana-Chapter-of-the-National-Lawyers-Guild-149325561751656/ [their nlgnola.org domain seems to be defunct]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:12 AM on July 10, 2016
What did we do before cell phone cameras?
I distinctly remember Copwatch being around before there were pervasive cell cams. So...whatever they were doing? Maybe just lots of passive (and so hopefully unarrestable) observers?
There were police helicopters and we all saw a low-flying drone - it was creepy, like a lego spider monster. I did not see any rubber bullets, just tear gas and some kind of flash bang things.
I've been thinking -- since the cops like to confiscate cameras, maybe protest organizations should operate their own livestreaming camera drones? Is that already a thing?
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:17 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I distinctly remember Copwatch being around before there were pervasive cell cams. So...whatever they were doing? Maybe just lots of passive (and so hopefully unarrestable) observers?
There were police helicopters and we all saw a low-flying drone - it was creepy, like a lego spider monster. I did not see any rubber bullets, just tear gas and some kind of flash bang things.
I've been thinking -- since the cops like to confiscate cameras, maybe protest organizations should operate their own livestreaming camera drones? Is that already a thing?
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:17 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Two have been released, one is still detained because he wasn't licensed to carry a firearm, a misdemeanor in Texas.
Curious. My understanding of open carry law in TX is that it's automatic - you don't get licensed, you're just free to OC unless you are barred from possessing a gun because of a conviction or something. In which case you'd get pinched for possession at all, not for open carry.
posted by phearlez at 10:20 AM on July 10, 2016
Curious. My understanding of open carry law in TX is that it's automatic - you don't get licensed, you're just free to OC unless you are barred from possessing a gun because of a conviction or something. In which case you'd get pinched for possession at all, not for open carry.
posted by phearlez at 10:20 AM on July 10, 2016
"My understanding of open carry law in TX is that it's automatic - you don't get licensed, you're just free to OC unless you are barred from possessing a gun because of a conviction or something."
You can carry a long gun/rifle where you please but handguns require permits to carry off your private property.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:24 AM on July 10, 2016
You can carry a long gun/rifle where you please but handguns require permits to carry off your private property.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:24 AM on July 10, 2016
Depends on what they were carrying I believe. If it was a handgun then I am fairly certain that's no dice. A rifle should be fine IIRC.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:25 AM on July 10, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:25 AM on July 10, 2016
I also want to call attention to a couple of lies that are being put about in the media about the St Paul protest:
1. From St. Paul mayor Coleman, a false claim that the children who were maced by police were being used as "human shields". This is utterly false. There was a truck (that had held the sound system and the speakers) that was full of kids and they were negotiating with the cops to get those kids off the hwy peacefully when they were maced. The crowd was supportive of this.
(Why were there kids on the hwy in the first place? IMO because it was not actually clear when people marched onto the highway that it was going to go this way. In past marches, when people have gone on the hwy, they have fairly quickly gone off and it has been very peaceful. I know that when I marched onto the hwy, I was not expecting things to go down as they did. I was expecting something more like the Ferguson solidarity march where we marched off again.)
As soon as it looked like the protest was going to get sticky, the organizers started pulling the kids together to try to get them off the road.
2. A false claim that protesters were throwing fireworks at police. Well, someone threw fireworks, but they were also being dropped in among the marchers - one landed about fifteen feet from me and I saw it very clearly. Everyone was baffled and the organizers kept asking that person to stop and asking others to identify them if they could. Someone was throwing fireworks, but it was a shit-stirrer of some kind - either freelance or possibly an agent provocateur.
These things are not true. I witnessed what was really going on.
When you hear stories about the bad behavior of protesters, always take it with a big grain of salt. I've seen some pretty truculent protester behavior in my time, but it has always been different from the kind of things that the cops say. If you hear cops or politicians saying something about a big, fluid protest that suggests that there is some kind of coordination of the crowd to throw things at the cops, or some kind of coordinated really bad behavior (like using kids as shields!) that will virtually always be a lie. They are relying on the fact that most people have not been in a big protest and don't know how one works.
posted by Frowner at 10:25 AM on July 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
1. From St. Paul mayor Coleman, a false claim that the children who were maced by police were being used as "human shields". This is utterly false. There was a truck (that had held the sound system and the speakers) that was full of kids and they were negotiating with the cops to get those kids off the hwy peacefully when they were maced. The crowd was supportive of this.
(Why were there kids on the hwy in the first place? IMO because it was not actually clear when people marched onto the highway that it was going to go this way. In past marches, when people have gone on the hwy, they have fairly quickly gone off and it has been very peaceful. I know that when I marched onto the hwy, I was not expecting things to go down as they did. I was expecting something more like the Ferguson solidarity march where we marched off again.)
As soon as it looked like the protest was going to get sticky, the organizers started pulling the kids together to try to get them off the road.
2. A false claim that protesters were throwing fireworks at police. Well, someone threw fireworks, but they were also being dropped in among the marchers - one landed about fifteen feet from me and I saw it very clearly. Everyone was baffled and the organizers kept asking that person to stop and asking others to identify them if they could. Someone was throwing fireworks, but it was a shit-stirrer of some kind - either freelance or possibly an agent provocateur.
These things are not true. I witnessed what was really going on.
When you hear stories about the bad behavior of protesters, always take it with a big grain of salt. I've seen some pretty truculent protester behavior in my time, but it has always been different from the kind of things that the cops say. If you hear cops or politicians saying something about a big, fluid protest that suggests that there is some kind of coordination of the crowd to throw things at the cops, or some kind of coordinated really bad behavior (like using kids as shields!) that will virtually always be a lie. They are relying on the fact that most people have not been in a big protest and don't know how one works.
posted by Frowner at 10:25 AM on July 10, 2016 [49 favorites]
Also, protesters will very, very rarely put each other in danger on purpose - I have never seen it. If you hear the cops claiming that they do, you can be virtually certain that it is a lie.
Protests are just...full of people. Especially big protests. They are full of people being people, individual, sometimes undisciplined or naive, sometimes afraid. Protesters are just people. The media tries to paint them/us as some other species who act with cunning and aggression, and again, that's a lie. We are just people. A protest can be planned, but it's like making any plan for a very, very large group of strangers - you know how things will go in broad outline, but it's all a bit random.
posted by Frowner at 10:31 AM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Protests are just...full of people. Especially big protests. They are full of people being people, individual, sometimes undisciplined or naive, sometimes afraid. Protesters are just people. The media tries to paint them/us as some other species who act with cunning and aggression, and again, that's a lie. We are just people. A protest can be planned, but it's like making any plan for a very, very large group of strangers - you know how things will go in broad outline, but it's all a bit random.
posted by Frowner at 10:31 AM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
I believe you Frowner, but even if kids were being used as "shields" in the front of the crowd as the police clam, surely the police could have, er, not used tear gas on the children? Like stopped and said "wait, there are kids there. Let's come up with another plan."
posted by zachlipton at 10:35 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:35 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, yes, absolutely - it's totally on the police. It's just that this lie is being told to try to make it look like the protesters somehow "tricked" the police into macing the kids, or like the protesters don't care about the welfare of kids. It's used to dehumanize the protesters.
posted by Frowner at 10:38 AM on July 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:38 AM on July 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
So 117 cops died in 2014, 49 from gunshots. There were about 900,000 active duty officers at that time. About 1000 people were killed by police in 2015. Data found at the National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund and the Washington Post
12,942 people were killed in 2015 in the US from gun violence (whether accidental, suicide, or homicide). There are about 300 million people in the United States. Gun deaths from here
For simplification, and because I don't think the simplification makes a material difference, lets assume that each 1 death = 1 murderer (so no mass shootings or serial killers, which makes up a very small proportion of deaths).
That means that 1 in 900 officers kills someone and 1 in 23,000 civilians kills someone. That means cops kill people and 25x the rate civilians do while only dying from gunshots at a rate of 1.3x the rate of civilians.
I mean, I knew the cops were killing people uncessarily, but these numbers really put it in stark contrast. If cops never killed anyone, I doubt the number of officers killed would increase 25x.
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:41 AM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
12,942 people were killed in 2015 in the US from gun violence (whether accidental, suicide, or homicide). There are about 300 million people in the United States. Gun deaths from here
For simplification, and because I don't think the simplification makes a material difference, lets assume that each 1 death = 1 murderer (so no mass shootings or serial killers, which makes up a very small proportion of deaths).
That means that 1 in 900 officers kills someone and 1 in 23,000 civilians kills someone. That means cops kill people and 25x the rate civilians do while only dying from gunshots at a rate of 1.3x the rate of civilians.
I mean, I knew the cops were killing people uncessarily, but these numbers really put it in stark contrast. If cops never killed anyone, I doubt the number of officers killed would increase 25x.
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:41 AM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'll try to say this again (and not in a snarky, deletable way), the attack in Dallas TOTALLY disproves the claim that "the best defense from a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun". There was a street full of police, armed, and multiple armed civilians and the attacker in his 'birds nest' could just pick off whoever he wanted at no risk to himself. Even when he was located and essentially cornered by the police, they could not get to him. As I have frequently declared, here and elsewhere, guns are damned good OFFENSIVE weapons, but as DEFENSIVE tools, they pretty much suck.
And the DPD chief's interview where he said "The shooter was secreted behind a concrete corner" is the first thing to have helped me understand why they'd use a bomb against him when he claimed to have bombs with him... he apparently had his own defenses adequately fortified that if the PD's bomb set off his bombs, collateral damage would be minimal. I still question that strategy some, just not as much.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:45 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
And the DPD chief's interview where he said "The shooter was secreted behind a concrete corner" is the first thing to have helped me understand why they'd use a bomb against him when he claimed to have bombs with him... he apparently had his own defenses adequately fortified that if the PD's bomb set off his bombs, collateral damage would be minimal. I still question that strategy some, just not as much.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:45 AM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
My understanding of open carry law in TX is that it's automatic - you don't get licensed, you're just free to OC unless you are barred from possessing a gun because of a conviction or something. In which case you'd get pinched for possession at all, not for open carry.
phearlez, I went back and listened to what police chief Brown specifically said and discovered something new that's related to your observation:
The chief never directly said so, but it's clear that the police were rounding up the demonstrators who were carrying guns (after the shooting began, which makes sense) and that one of them was obviously Mark Hughes, the guy who's picture they posted on Twitter. But he was running and they could not catch him, as they did others, so that's why they put up his picture on social media. The chief then goes on to say that (this is what I transcribed) " one of the other other individuals that was running could not legally carry the gun so we charged that person with prohibitive weapon and they were brought to jail."
So it sounds like the third person might have been barred from having a weapon at all, possibly because they were on parole, but that's total conjecture on my part.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:52 AM on July 10, 2016
phearlez, I went back and listened to what police chief Brown specifically said and discovered something new that's related to your observation:
The chief never directly said so, but it's clear that the police were rounding up the demonstrators who were carrying guns (after the shooting began, which makes sense) and that one of them was obviously Mark Hughes, the guy who's picture they posted on Twitter. But he was running and they could not catch him, as they did others, so that's why they put up his picture on social media. The chief then goes on to say that (this is what I transcribed) " one of the other other individuals that was running could not legally carry the gun so we charged that person with prohibitive weapon and they were brought to jail."
So it sounds like the third person might have been barred from having a weapon at all, possibly because they were on parole, but that's total conjecture on my part.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:52 AM on July 10, 2016
Also, the shooter wrote something on the wall, seemingly with his own blood, indicating he was injured. The Chief Brown made it sound like several things were written, but the only one mentioned (after Jake Tapper asked) were the letters 'RB'.
Please, no 'Rosebud' jokes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2016
Please, no 'Rosebud' jokes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2016
The peaceful march was kinda spontaneous, planning meetings indicated it would just be a gathering. So the police had to scramble to block off intersections, which basically left the cops exposed.
This statement by the police is frightening to me. I'm very concerned that this rational will be used to do whatever it takes to get protesters to do only what the police want them to do at any given moment. Not that that isn't already happening, but I feel like this could definitely make cops reactions to protesters worse.
posted by dysh at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
This statement by the police is frightening to me. I'm very concerned that this rational will be used to do whatever it takes to get protesters to do only what the police want them to do at any given moment. Not that that isn't already happening, but I feel like this could definitely make cops reactions to protesters worse.
posted by dysh at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'll try to say this again (and not in a snarky, deletable way), the attack in Dallas TOTALLY disproves the claim that "the best defense from a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Add to that the fact that a whole bunch of people were openly carrying at the protest, and that only served to cause confusion and make it harder for the police to find the person actually doing the shooting.
posted by zachlipton at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Add to that the fact that a whole bunch of people were openly carrying at the protest, and that only served to cause confusion and make it harder for the police to find the person actually doing the shooting.
posted by zachlipton at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
The peaceful march was kinda spontaneous, planning meetings indicated it would just be a gathering. So the police had to scramble to block off intersections, which basically left the cops exposed.
This statement by the police is frightening to me. I'm very concerned that this rational will be used to do whatever it takes to get protesters to do only what the police want them to do at any given moment.
Yeah, as I was listening, it was really hard not to jump to the conclusion that Chief Brown was sorta blaming the demonstrators, but I honestly can't say that he was. It seemed mostly just a straight forward assessment of what happened. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if this used to restrict demonstrations in the future.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:01 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This statement by the police is frightening to me. I'm very concerned that this rational will be used to do whatever it takes to get protesters to do only what the police want them to do at any given moment.
Yeah, as I was listening, it was really hard not to jump to the conclusion that Chief Brown was sorta blaming the demonstrators, but I honestly can't say that he was. It seemed mostly just a straight forward assessment of what happened. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if this used to restrict demonstrations in the future.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:01 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
NYPD Asks Policing Project to Gather Public Input on Body Cameras
posted by dysh at 11:13 AM on July 10, 2016
posted by dysh at 11:13 AM on July 10, 2016
Thanks for sharing that, dysh. The questions make it clear that they are concerned about balancing right to privacy with the considerations in favor of recording. That is not a simple question. I am pretty strongly pro cameras in public spaces. In someone's home, I have more mixed feelings, though ultimately I think I'd want the cameras on. Maybe just delete the data within some specified time period if there is no arrest and no complaint.
posted by prefpara at 11:24 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by prefpara at 11:24 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The comment Brown made, about he doesn't "give any quarter to critics who ask these types of questions from the comforts and safety away from the incident" was in answer to Jake Tapper asking whether some other method could have been used that wouldn't have killed the shooter like "riot gas". Brown indicated that it wasn't worth his time to entertain those questions at the moment (I'm paraphrasing)
That's a disgusting attitude about the loss of human life, period. Something that serious, you critique everything, what went right, what could have been done better. That's how you learn and train.
I can only hope that "at the moment" means they will be having a formal full and sufficiently critical independent review of all the events of that night. Because "I won't stand to be questioned about that" is fired on the spot, to me. That's what civilian control of the military and police force IS.
posted by ctmf at 11:26 AM on July 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
That's a disgusting attitude about the loss of human life, period. Something that serious, you critique everything, what went right, what could have been done better. That's how you learn and train.
I can only hope that "at the moment" means they will be having a formal full and sufficiently critical independent review of all the events of that night. Because "I won't stand to be questioned about that" is fired on the spot, to me. That's what civilian control of the military and police force IS.
posted by ctmf at 11:26 AM on July 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
And yes, Annika Cicada, that's exactly what it reads to me - "you can't handle the truth" bullshit.
posted by ctmf at 11:51 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 11:51 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The standoff was two hours long...
Johnson said he had bombs, which prompted the use of the "bomb robot" to end things quickly after he refused to surrender.
Robert Dear, who killed multiple people including a cop and had improvised explosive devices, was negotiated with for 5 hours before they sent in armored vehicles, which gave him the chance to surrender, rather than being remotely killed. Obviously different locations they were holed up in, different PDs, etc., but this does make me a little uncomfortable, both that it was done, and that it was a black suspect who was the first test of death by remote.
posted by chris24 at 12:01 PM on July 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Johnson said he had bombs, which prompted the use of the "bomb robot" to end things quickly after he refused to surrender.
Robert Dear, who killed multiple people including a cop and had improvised explosive devices, was negotiated with for 5 hours before they sent in armored vehicles, which gave him the chance to surrender, rather than being remotely killed. Obviously different locations they were holed up in, different PDs, etc., but this does make me a little uncomfortable, both that it was done, and that it was a black suspect who was the first test of death by remote.
posted by chris24 at 12:01 PM on July 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
Robert Dear, who killed multiple people including a cop and had improvised explosive devices, was negotiated with for 5 hours before they sent in armored vehicles, which gave him the chance to surrender, rather than being remotely killed. Obviously different locations they were holed up in, different PDs, etc., but this does make me a little uncomfortable, both that it was done, and that it was a black suspect who was the first test of death by remote.
Yeah, two hours is a remarkably short amount of time for a negotation like this. I think they had already decided that there was no way Micah Johnson was getting out of that parking garage alive, and they were looking not for ways to end the standoff, but ways to get revenge without endangering themselves.
posted by dis_integration at 12:39 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yeah, two hours is a remarkably short amount of time for a negotation like this. I think they had already decided that there was no way Micah Johnson was getting out of that parking garage alive, and they were looking not for ways to end the standoff, but ways to get revenge without endangering themselves.
posted by dis_integration at 12:39 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
In my personal life experience it's the situations where people have said "don't question me" that are precisely the situations demanding even more rigorous examination.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2016 [44 favorites]
Not going to link to the stories here...
Rudy Giuliani was on msnbc with Brian Williams on the 8th and cbs's Face the Nation today and spewed his special breed of vitriol. He should not be getting airtime. HE and his ilk are THE problem. I view what he said as inciting violence or at least inflaming the already unstable situation we are in as a nation. He sounds insane.
My god.
posted by futz at 12:55 PM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Rudy Giuliani was on msnbc with Brian Williams on the 8th and cbs's Face the Nation today and spewed his special breed of vitriol. He should not be getting airtime. HE and his ilk are THE problem. I view what he said as inciting violence or at least inflaming the already unstable situation we are in as a nation. He sounds insane.
My god.
posted by futz at 12:55 PM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
We can all pray that Giuliani's entire point of existence is to be an extinction burst.
As for negotiating time, I've thought this for a while but all three events of the past week have proven that cops are impatient.
posted by rhizome at 12:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
As for negotiating time, I've thought this for a while but all three events of the past week have proven that cops are impatient.
posted by rhizome at 12:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I JUST SAW THIS PICTURE AND I’M SO DISTURBED. BECAUSE IT’S ME. - Feminewbie
posted by ctmf at 1:00 PM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 1:00 PM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Two summers ago a man shot a cop when they attempted to arrest him at a home in Flint. After a 11 hour stand-off, authorities decided to use a back-hoe to breach the house. I watched some of it and the neighborhood was just frantic, the local news cut broadcast. The police had a hard time with the identification.
I couldn't help but to think this breach is more message then a easy way to re-enter the house. My impression was "don't ask us why we used John Deere to do our job"
posted by clavdivs at 1:05 PM on July 10, 2016
I couldn't help but to think this breach is more message then a easy way to re-enter the house. My impression was "don't ask us why we used John Deere to do our job"
posted by clavdivs at 1:05 PM on July 10, 2016
Aviva Shen: Police Said They Shot A Man Because He Pointed A Gun At Them. Video Shows He Had His Hands Up.
Houston Police said Alva Braziel was waving a gun around and pointed it at them when they opened fire. But surveillance footage from a nearby gas station suggests otherwise.posted by zombieflanders at 1:10 PM on July 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
The video, which began circulating Saturday night on Twitter, shows Braziel walk out toward an intersection. When the squad car arrives, he appears to put his hands in the air and turn around, standing still for a few seconds before police shoot him.
Both officers involved reportedly had body cameras on them, but the footage has not yet been released.
Because he came up earlier: it looks like the guy who pulled the gun on protestors in Portland is going to be facing some felony charges. Additionally, he turns out to have been one of the Bundy's frequent supporters, which isn't a huge surprise (they're still very angry at Oregon, after all).
Not remembering how much about him came out earlier, but I know it was implied that he'd skate on this, and it looks like he very much isn't going to.
posted by Archelaus at 1:49 PM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not remembering how much about him came out earlier, but I know it was implied that he'd skate on this, and it looks like he very much isn't going to.
posted by Archelaus at 1:49 PM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'd say he already "skated on this" in that he's still alive after waving a ready-to-fire gun at people near a police officer. That should be what happens every time, but somehow doesn't seem to be the norm.
posted by ctmf at 2:29 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 2:29 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Rudy Giuliani was on msnbc with Brian Williams on the 8th and cbs's Face the Nation today and spewed his special breed of vitriol.
There's been a frequently reported right-wing talking point lately that the entire phrase "Black Lives Matter" is somehow inherently racist. Not the movement, not specific actions people have taken, but the phrase itself. It is unfathomable.
I'll fully admit that as a not always entirely aware white guy, I was, at the beginning of Black Lives Matter, briefly not completely sure why "all lives matter" was such an insult. Surely nobody could object to that? But then I did the work, utterly basic 101 level stuff, which in this case requires at most five minutes of listening to people who know of what they speak, and you know what, I got it. And I've tried to share that lesson with the people around me who still don't get it. It is hard to appreciate the amount of wilful blindness it takes to still ignore reality, years into this iteration of a struggle that has lasted for generations.
Does Giuliani honestly think the people chanting "black lives matter" are ok with black deaths that don't come at the hands of the police? Because it's a pretty damn simple statement that doesn't have any asterisks, any caveats that would hint that it's not talking about every situation, and there's a lot of them where we deny the importance of black lives. Clearly not, or he wouldn't have gone on TV with made up racist statistics, but we also ought to ask why people keep giving him a microphone.
posted by zachlipton at 2:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
There's been a frequently reported right-wing talking point lately that the entire phrase "Black Lives Matter" is somehow inherently racist. Not the movement, not specific actions people have taken, but the phrase itself. It is unfathomable.
I'll fully admit that as a not always entirely aware white guy, I was, at the beginning of Black Lives Matter, briefly not completely sure why "all lives matter" was such an insult. Surely nobody could object to that? But then I did the work, utterly basic 101 level stuff, which in this case requires at most five minutes of listening to people who know of what they speak, and you know what, I got it. And I've tried to share that lesson with the people around me who still don't get it. It is hard to appreciate the amount of wilful blindness it takes to still ignore reality, years into this iteration of a struggle that has lasted for generations.
Does Giuliani honestly think the people chanting "black lives matter" are ok with black deaths that don't come at the hands of the police? Because it's a pretty damn simple statement that doesn't have any asterisks, any caveats that would hint that it's not talking about every situation, and there's a lot of them where we deny the importance of black lives. Clearly not, or he wouldn't have gone on TV with made up racist statistics, but we also ought to ask why people keep giving him a microphone.
posted by zachlipton at 2:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
People who object to "Black Lives Matter" are either super privileged or unconsciously racist or maybe both. Or are 15 year old redditors who have never met an argument they didn't like (which is probably a subset of the other categories I listed).
Someone posted the "Save the rainforests!" formulation but I like "Save the Whales! doesn't mean Kill the Dolphins!".
posted by Justinian at 3:17 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Someone posted the "Save the rainforests!" formulation but I like "Save the Whales! doesn't mean Kill the Dolphins!".
posted by Justinian at 3:17 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
@deray: "There is no group of citizens that should be able to exercise their power w/o accountability or transparency, like the police currently can."
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:22 PM on July 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:22 PM on July 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
I learned this weekend that somebody in my extended family has been repeatedly calling her Congressional reps and insisting that it's racist to have a Black Caucus in Congress but not a White Caucus.
She's also doing that white person thing of "I'm not racist, how could I be, I was a FLOWER CHILD in SAN FRANCISCO in the SIXTIES"
It's like, what are you supposed to say to that, like, yeah, guess what, you can drop acid a time or to and still be fucking racist
posted by angrycat at 3:34 PM on July 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
She's also doing that white person thing of "I'm not racist, how could I be, I was a FLOWER CHILD in SAN FRANCISCO in the SIXTIES"
It's like, what are you supposed to say to that, like, yeah, guess what, you can drop acid a time or to and still be fucking racist
posted by angrycat at 3:34 PM on July 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
I learned this weekend that somebody in my extended family has been repeatedly calling her Congressional reps and insisting that it's racist to have a Black Caucus in Congress but not a White Caucus.
Congres has a White Caucus. It's called the Republican Party.
posted by Talez at 3:38 PM on July 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
Congres has a White Caucus. It's called the Republican Party.
posted by Talez at 3:38 PM on July 10, 2016 [24 favorites]
I think we need a nationwide law banning domestic use of tear gas. It feeds into the mentality that there's some moral imperative to disperse crowds, something that I've never really understood since in theory the right to assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances is the first enumerated right in the Constitution.
The use of tear gas seems to be almost entirely punitive, and rooted in little more than the boot on the neck mentality that is the core of the problem.
I'd also say that while the Dallas PD as a whole may have been making progress, Chief Brown is a problem and needs to be fired ASAP. The mentality behind summarily executing a person and then telling everyone to STFU and stop asking questions or talking about the summary execution is horrifying and completely inappropriate for a police chief. Or, indeed, any public official.
This seems, I think, to be tied to the disperse the crowd mentality.
By all reports they knew exactly where the shooter was, they had him cornered, he couldn't escape, he couldn't hurt any other civilians. There was simply no need to end the standoff quickly.
Yes, it's annoying to have to tie up the resources to keep him pinned until he either decides to leave or is driven out of his hole by thirst or boredom.
But it's very wrong for the police to kill someone simply because waiting them out would be annoying. That's an idea that should be entirely unacceptable to everyone, and I'm deeply disturbed by how many even seemingly liberal minded people seem to think that it was ok for the police to play judge, jury, and executioner because the alternative would take too long.
I'm very glad that the St. Paul police seemed to be backed down by the protesters. Learning that they were set up for mass arrests and then had to end that plan is, to my mind, one of the most encouraging signs so far. We **CAN** make a difference if enough of us try. It takes a huge number of us trying, but it is possible.
posted by sotonohito at 3:43 PM on July 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
The use of tear gas seems to be almost entirely punitive, and rooted in little more than the boot on the neck mentality that is the core of the problem.
I'd also say that while the Dallas PD as a whole may have been making progress, Chief Brown is a problem and needs to be fired ASAP. The mentality behind summarily executing a person and then telling everyone to STFU and stop asking questions or talking about the summary execution is horrifying and completely inappropriate for a police chief. Or, indeed, any public official.
This seems, I think, to be tied to the disperse the crowd mentality.
By all reports they knew exactly where the shooter was, they had him cornered, he couldn't escape, he couldn't hurt any other civilians. There was simply no need to end the standoff quickly.
Yes, it's annoying to have to tie up the resources to keep him pinned until he either decides to leave or is driven out of his hole by thirst or boredom.
But it's very wrong for the police to kill someone simply because waiting them out would be annoying. That's an idea that should be entirely unacceptable to everyone, and I'm deeply disturbed by how many even seemingly liberal minded people seem to think that it was ok for the police to play judge, jury, and executioner because the alternative would take too long.
I'm very glad that the St. Paul police seemed to be backed down by the protesters. Learning that they were set up for mass arrests and then had to end that plan is, to my mind, one of the most encouraging signs so far. We **CAN** make a difference if enough of us try. It takes a huge number of us trying, but it is possible.
posted by sotonohito at 3:43 PM on July 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun
is a good guy with a gun, who's controlling
a robot with a bomb
posted by secretseasons at 4:12 PM on July 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
is a good guy with a gun, who's controlling
a robot with a bomb
posted by secretseasons at 4:12 PM on July 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
#BlackLivesMatter Rural White Organizing: A few months after the campaign was launched some of my neighbors started to ask me where they could get lawn signs. The requests increased when a local church dedicated a month to discussing racism in the United States. I finally caved after I read a PBS poll about white people’s opinions about Black Lives Matter. I ordered 50 bright yellow signs from a local sign shop and also developed an info sheet to go with them. The sheet talked about other ways you could show that black lives matter to you, beyond just putting a sign in your yard. The signs went like hotcakes.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:24 PM on July 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:24 PM on July 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
The mentality behind summarily executing a person and then telling everyone to STFU and stop asking questions or talking about the summary execution is horrifying and completely inappropriate for a police chief.
That's my problem, too. The authority to make a decision like that brings with it the responsibility to be accountable for it afterwards. He decided to kill a man*, he better FULLY EXPECT to have to explain that decision in detail. It doesn't look like he does expect that. That's a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of how accountability goes with authority that I consider disqualifying for the job.
Charitably, I can imagine he misspoke and only meant he didn't want THIS press conference to be about that. But the "comforts and safety away from the incident" crack makes me wonder about that.
posted by ctmf at 4:27 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
That's my problem, too. The authority to make a decision like that brings with it the responsibility to be accountable for it afterwards. He decided to kill a man*, he better FULLY EXPECT to have to explain that decision in detail. It doesn't look like he does expect that. That's a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of how accountability goes with authority that I consider disqualifying for the job.
Charitably, I can imagine he misspoke and only meant he didn't want THIS press conference to be about that. But the "comforts and safety away from the incident" crack makes me wonder about that.
posted by ctmf at 4:27 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
* with a pound of c4. What is this, a Schwarzenegger movie?
posted by ctmf at 4:31 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by ctmf at 4:31 PM on July 10, 2016
Did the guy who pressed the button make some smart-ass punny remark first?
posted by ctmf at 4:32 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 4:32 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The mentality behind summarily executing a person and then telling everyone to STFU and stop asking questions or talking about the summary execution is horrifying and completely inappropriate for a police chief.
Having actually listened to the audio, I feel it's important to note that Chief repeatedly said he wasn't entertaining that question at this time (paraphrasing), that the debate about whether it was appropriated was fine and those questions could be dealt with later. I wasn't crazy about his attitude either (while sympathizing with it) but let's not paint the guy as being completely unwilling to deal with criticism.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:32 PM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Having actually listened to the audio, I feel it's important to note that Chief repeatedly said he wasn't entertaining that question at this time (paraphrasing), that the debate about whether it was appropriated was fine and those questions could be dealt with later. I wasn't crazy about his attitude either (while sympathizing with it) but let's not paint the guy as being completely unwilling to deal with criticism.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:32 PM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Thanks, BB. I hope that's the case.
posted by ctmf at 4:35 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 4:35 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's a snippet from a Black Live Memorial for the recent shooting that took place this evening in Savannah, GA. It's a moving rendition of Amazing Grace that dissolves into laughter for all the right reasons (not everyone can remember all the lyrics).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
This whole argument about how the police killed the shooter is sounding a lot like maybe some of y'all dont really understand why Black folks have been crying themselves to sleep in sadness and anger for the past week (months, years...) I get that you have an axe to grind against the police, but you aint fighting the same fight as the rest of us, and from where I'm standing, conflating the deaths of innocent Black people at the hands of the police with that of a mass shooter who was engaged in an active incident, not only doesn't help. it makes it harder for the rest of us who are dealing with the trauma of lived experience.
Please stop.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:39 PM on July 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
Please stop.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:39 PM on July 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
Police now advancing on crowd in Baton Rouge (VERY loud alarm)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:41 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:41 PM on July 10, 2016
and from where I'm standing, conflating the deaths of innocent Black people at the hands of the police with that of a mass shooter who was engaged in an active incident, not only doesn't help. it makes it harder for the rest of us who are dealing with the trauma of lived experience.
Repeated for agreement. It's a bullshit and tone deaf point of view that leaves me alternating between bewilderment, rage and frustration.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:43 PM on July 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Repeated for agreement. It's a bullshit and tone deaf point of view that leaves me alternating between bewilderment, rage and frustration.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:43 PM on July 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm a Black person who's upset about both issues, FWIW. I'm terrified and heartrboken about the ongoing campaigns against POC when police officers confront them, and I'm also terrified about how and why this particular active shooter came to be bombed as the only possible resolution to the situation. Wanting more transparency and an avoidance of executions are part of both issues, for me. I think that many of us are worried about how much further the militarization of the police will escalate, in the aftermath of bombing someone, and continue to negatively impact communities of color--I, for one, have nightmares about another MOVE incident, and to me it seems far more likely to happen than it did the day before Dallas.
posted by TwoStride at 4:57 PM on July 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 4:57 PM on July 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
you aint fighting the same fight as the rest of us,
That's hard to say in this instance. A lot of people feel a white man would have been treated differently, in which case it is the same fight.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's hard to say in this instance. A lot of people feel a white man would have been treated differently, in which case it is the same fight.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it's the same issue, police accountability to the public.
posted by ctmf at 5:06 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by ctmf at 5:06 PM on July 10, 2016
And no, that's not glossing over the racism. It's accountability FOR the racism, that's clearly demonstrated by all evidence.
posted by ctmf at 5:10 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by ctmf at 5:10 PM on July 10, 2016
If the standoff was two hours long, as reported, at what point was the decision made to jury-rig a bomb disposal robot with explosive? Surely it takes time to get it out of storage, transport it, arm it, and deploy it. My guess is that it would take about an hour to do all that, which would mean that they had decided to kill him within about an hour of locating him.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:14 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:14 PM on July 10, 2016
If the standoff was two hours long, as reported, at what point was the decision made to jury-rig a bomb disposal robot with explosive?
Someone linked to audio of the interview and highlighted bullet points which answers your question:
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:21 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Someone linked to audio of the interview and highlighted bullet points which answers your question:
When Brown left for a press conference he told his team to get creative and come up with a plan to end the standoff. They came up with the plan and he approved it.I edited the phrase 'to come' from the original comment for clarity
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:21 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are there any legislators working on bills to fix the police problem?
Protests are fine, I'm firmly in favor of protests, but we desperately need to get some legislation put in place to gain accountability, end the power the police unions have wrongly gathered, and break the contracts that give the police rights civilians don't when they are investigated.
Some of that can happen at a local level, but I think the only way it is likely to really change is to impose regulation from the state or national level on the local police departments. Look at where so many of the killings take place: in tiny little suburban or rural areas. Ferguson, Falcon Heights, little places where there's very unlikely to be any sort of local effort to impose regulations on the cops.
Has anyone drafted model legislation we can push to get passed at various levels?
I'd love to be able to work with my local BLM and other groups to pressure my city government to adopt a set of laws that might do some good. Marching is great, but we need ultimately to use that public pressure to get regulations imposed.
posted by sotonohito at 5:35 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Protests are fine, I'm firmly in favor of protests, but we desperately need to get some legislation put in place to gain accountability, end the power the police unions have wrongly gathered, and break the contracts that give the police rights civilians don't when they are investigated.
Some of that can happen at a local level, but I think the only way it is likely to really change is to impose regulation from the state or national level on the local police departments. Look at where so many of the killings take place: in tiny little suburban or rural areas. Ferguson, Falcon Heights, little places where there's very unlikely to be any sort of local effort to impose regulations on the cops.
Has anyone drafted model legislation we can push to get passed at various levels?
I'd love to be able to work with my local BLM and other groups to pressure my city government to adopt a set of laws that might do some good. Marching is great, but we need ultimately to use that public pressure to get regulations imposed.
posted by sotonohito at 5:35 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Has anyone drafted model legislation we can push to get passed at various levels?
http://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
http://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
ctmf: I JUST SAW THIS PICTURE AND I’M SO DISTURBED. BECAUSE IT’S ME. - Feminewbie
That's a great, heartbreaking read, partially because it's not just in the US of A where racism is a severe issue with the police when it comes to power plays between white offices and black people. But mostly because I am sick and scared of how prevalent this is.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's a great, heartbreaking read, partially because it's not just in the US of A where racism is a severe issue with the police when it comes to power plays between white offices and black people. But mostly because I am sick and scared of how prevalent this is.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
zachlipton: There's been a frequently reported right-wing talking point lately that the entire phrase "Black Lives Matter" is somehow inherently racist. Not the movement, not specific actions people have taken, but the phrase itself. It is unfathomable.
Sadly, it's not that unfathomable. My wife and I were talking about some people's angry responses to the term and idea of Black Lives Matter. She said it doesn't mean ONLY black lives matter, but that they SHOULD matter as much as anyone else's. It's about basic equality for all, not superiority of one group (white lives) over anyone other (black lives).
But some right-wingers either refuse to believe that there is a lack of equality (the belief that we're living in a post-racial America), or they believe but (generally) won't say that black lives don't really matter, especially when compared to white lives (or blue lives, or any other group of lives).
Otherwise, how can it be racist to strive for basic equality?
posted by filthy light thief at 5:48 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sadly, it's not that unfathomable. My wife and I were talking about some people's angry responses to the term and idea of Black Lives Matter. She said it doesn't mean ONLY black lives matter, but that they SHOULD matter as much as anyone else's. It's about basic equality for all, not superiority of one group (white lives) over anyone other (black lives).
But some right-wingers either refuse to believe that there is a lack of equality (the belief that we're living in a post-racial America), or they believe but (generally) won't say that black lives don't really matter, especially when compared to white lives (or blue lives, or any other group of lives).
Otherwise, how can it be racist to strive for basic equality?
posted by filthy light thief at 5:48 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let’s add Pokémon GO to the extremely long list of things white people can do without fear of being killed.
I spent less than 20 minutes outside. Five of those minutes were spent enjoying the game. One of those minutes I spent trying to look as pleasant and nonthreatening as possible as I walked past a somewhat visibly disturbed white woman on her way to the bus stop. I spent the other 14 minutes being distracted from the game by thoughts of the countless Black Men who have had the police called on them because they looked “suspicious” or wondering what a second amendment exercising individual might do if I walked past their window a 3rd or 4th time in search of a Jigglypuff.posted by filthy light thief at 5:51 PM on July 10, 2016 [30 favorites]
When my brain started combining the complexity of being Black in America with the real world proposal of wandering and exploration that is designed into the gamplay of Pokémon Go, there was only one conclusion. I might die if I keep playing.
The breakdown is simple:The premise of Pokémon Go asks me to put my life in danger if I choose to play it as it is intended and with enthusiasm.
- There is a statistically disproportionate chance that someone could call the police to investigate me for walking around in circles in the complex.
- There is a statistically disproportionate chance that I would be approached by law enforcement with fear or aggression, even when no laws have been broken.
- There is a statistically disproportionate chance that I will be shot while reaching for my identification that I always keep in my back right pocket.
- There is a statistically disproportionate chance that more shots will be fired and I will be dead before any medical assistance is available.
I think it's the same issue, police accountability to the public.
It's really, really, not the same issue .
Really.
Officers killing unarmed black people because of fear, panic and/or just plain racist has issues of public accountability mixed in it, but there are many more issues and concerns in these instances.
Officers killing a black mass murder who won't surrender and is boasting of having bombs also has issue of public accountability, but the two situations are vastly different and people insisting they're the same or similar should just stop.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 PM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
It's really, really, not the same issue .
Really.
Officers killing unarmed black people because of fear, panic and/or just plain racist has issues of public accountability mixed in it, but there are many more issues and concerns in these instances.
Officers killing a black mass murder who won't surrender and is boasting of having bombs also has issue of public accountability, but the two situations are vastly different and people insisting they're the same or similar should just stop.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 PM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
people insisting they're the same or similar
Same and similar are very different things.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Same and similar are very different things.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
If the standoff was two hours long, as reported, at what point was the decision made to jury-rig a bomb disposal robot with explosive? Surely it takes time to get it out of storage, transport it, arm it, and deploy it. My guess is that it would take about an hour to do all that, which would mean that they had decided to kill him within about an hour of locating him.
The robot was probably on scene already because Johnson had claimed there were bombs, and someone upthread said that C4 is what they use to explode bombs.
posted by AFABulous at 6:05 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The robot was probably on scene already because Johnson had claimed there were bombs, and someone upthread said that C4 is what they use to explode bombs.
posted by AFABulous at 6:05 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Officers killing a black mass murder who won't surrender and is boasting of having bombs also has issue of public accountability, but the two situations are vastly different and people insisting they're the same or similar should just stop.
Police accountability is only part of the bomb issue. A white mass murderer who had also killed and injured multiple cops, who also had bombs, and who also refused to surrender was treated very differently. So wondering if there was a racial component to that decision seems not an unreasonable part of this thread.
posted by chris24 at 6:06 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Police accountability is only part of the bomb issue. A white mass murderer who had also killed and injured multiple cops, who also had bombs, and who also refused to surrender was treated very differently. So wondering if there was a racial component to that decision seems not an unreasonable part of this thread.
posted by chris24 at 6:06 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Although I am disturbed by the robotic bomb thing because I don't want that to be the next new toy in an already too militarized law enforcement arsenal, I have zero problem with the police having killed this guy and don't see that as a racial decision. I don't think they would have been any more forgiving of anyone of any color who had just shot 11 people, killing several. They gave him some opportunities to surrender, warned of dire consequences if he didn't and followed through. I don't get the idea that they should have negotiated longer. What if he got away again somehow?
Yes, there have been some situations where they negotiated with other dangerous people successfully, but circumstances may have been different. Robert Dear was cited as someone they negotiated with longer, but there were clinic workers hiding in the building who might have been hurt if they rushed him. Two hours not long enough? He'd have been dead long before that if they could have gotten a clean shot. If there is some rampaging person killing many people in my city, I have no problem with the police killing that person in the interests of larger community safety.
Someone said what if the shooter was your brother of father or whatever. If a relative, friend or loved one of mine went on a murderous shooting spree, I would expect that they would likely end up dead for having done so.
As others have said, I don't see this as a racial issue at all. It's a mass murderer issue. I'm pretty much against capital punishment, but don't have much issue with police killing active shooters.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:17 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, there have been some situations where they negotiated with other dangerous people successfully, but circumstances may have been different. Robert Dear was cited as someone they negotiated with longer, but there were clinic workers hiding in the building who might have been hurt if they rushed him. Two hours not long enough? He'd have been dead long before that if they could have gotten a clean shot. If there is some rampaging person killing many people in my city, I have no problem with the police killing that person in the interests of larger community safety.
Someone said what if the shooter was your brother of father or whatever. If a relative, friend or loved one of mine went on a murderous shooting spree, I would expect that they would likely end up dead for having done so.
As others have said, I don't see this as a racial issue at all. It's a mass murderer issue. I'm pretty much against capital punishment, but don't have much issue with police killing active shooters.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:17 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I straight up don't understand all the arrests of protesters I see happening on video. This to me is also completely beyond the pale. I know the US Constitution is basically aspirational, but it still feels awful to see it used as toilet paper. I'm reading on twitter that protesters in Baton Rouge were snatched off of private property by cops - as in, the owner of a house told protesters they could be on the lawn and invited them into the home, and cops went inside and grabbed people and arrested them. Just - ?!?!?!?
posted by prefpara at 6:22 PM on July 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 6:22 PM on July 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
Although I am disturbed by the robotic bomb thing because I don't want that to be the next new toy in an already too militarized law enforcement arsenal, I have zero problem with the police having killed this guy and don't see that as a racial decision
I don't, either.
posted by zutalors! at 6:26 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't, either.
posted by zutalors! at 6:26 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
To White Teachers Shouting “Black Lives Matter.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:29 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:29 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Baton Rouge PD also rounded up reporters and kept them six blocks away from the scene prefpara mentions.
posted by AFABulous at 6:31 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 6:31 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I see people tweeting, "I am going to the protest, if I die in jail I did not commit suicide."
That is FUCKED. Our society needs immediate intense change.
posted by prefpara at 6:36 PM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
That is FUCKED. Our society needs immediate intense change.
posted by prefpara at 6:36 PM on July 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Although I am disturbed by the robotic bomb thing because I don't want that to be the next new toy in an already too militarized law enforcement arsenal,
OK, that's something I think most of us can get behind.
I have zero problem with the police having killed this guy and don't see that as a racial decision
Um, with that problematic bomb?
This may the the time that #AllLivesMatter makes sense.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:37 PM on July 10, 2016
OK, that's something I think most of us can get behind.
I have zero problem with the police having killed this guy and don't see that as a racial decision
Um, with that problematic bomb?
This may the the time that #AllLivesMatter makes sense.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:37 PM on July 10, 2016
By the way, I have curated a Twitter list of people covering the news and protests: Black Lives Matter. It's jumping tonight.
posted by AFABulous at 6:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 6:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
Fwiw my position on the death of Micah Johnson comes from mourning and trying to make sense of the deaths of trans women of color, many of whom die while engaging in illegal (and some even criminal) activity. I have come to a place where any time a minority or otherwise oppressed person dies at hands of another that I put aside the particulars of the momentary context and instead see their lives against the backdrop of what brought them there.
If that's a casually racist thing to do then I'll stop.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:48 PM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
If that's a casually racist thing to do then I'll stop.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:48 PM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
> Between that photo of DeRay being arrested and this one the police are not doing themselves any favors in the PR department.
BBC News: Black Lives Matter: The Baton Rouge photo hailed as 'legendary'
posted by homunculus at 7:14 PM on July 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
BBC News: Black Lives Matter: The Baton Rouge photo hailed as 'legendary'
posted by homunculus at 7:14 PM on July 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I straight up don't understand all the arrests of protesters I see happening on video. This to me is also completely beyond the pale.
Mass arrests that won't result in any actual charges (or, at most, charges that will be immediately thrown out by any judge) are part of the Miami Model. As are most of the other things we're seeing in Baton Rouge (and that we previously saw in Ferguson during the original BLM marches there).
posted by tobascodagama at 7:20 PM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mass arrests that won't result in any actual charges (or, at most, charges that will be immediately thrown out by any judge) are part of the Miami Model. As are most of the other things we're seeing in Baton Rouge (and that we previously saw in Ferguson during the original BLM marches there).
posted by tobascodagama at 7:20 PM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Twitter is saying her name is Leshia Evans, although it's also being spelled Leisha and Ieshia.
posted by AFABulous at 7:22 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 7:22 PM on July 10, 2016
I'm remembering back to the RNC protests here in 2008, because it seems like a lot of what's going down in Baton Rouge (snatching people, tear gas, the LRAD) is very like what happened here then. Back then it was a combination of the city bringing in cops from outside the city who hated city people generally and hippies in particular (not that our cops are so sterling, but at least they are familiar with city culture), the extra money the cops got for weapons (which you have to use to justify your budget) and generally shitty administration. It was bad and really upsetting, but it was less dangerous. People almost got killed a couple of times, but the fact was that white protestors, many middle class, might get beaten and gassed but would not generally be at risk of their lives. The cops threatened to kill people a lot, though.
posted by Frowner at 7:28 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by Frowner at 7:28 PM on July 10, 2016
ctmf: I JUST SAW THIS PICTURE AND I’M SO DISTURBED. BECAUSE IT’S ME. - Feminewbie
I can't go anywhere near a BLM protest for this very reason. If I'm arrested and the prosecution wants to make an example of me they can overcharge me with assault on an officer, call ICE, and have me transferred to federal custody at which point I'll probably have to spend a few days in federal custody which could be anywhere in the country, hire a very expensive immigration attorney and post federal bail (in full, no 10% here).
If ICE aren't finished with me before a local court date the local court can tack on more fees and also put a warrant out for my arrest. They know I can't plead out quickly to lesser charges but since this is purely for my harassment it doesn't matter if they roll the dice and lose.
Even with my privileged access to almost unlimited legal resources via family and friends, along with my white skin, an overeager prosecutor could make my life hell for months. It makes me feel like a chicken shit piece of garbage that I can't stand up but I risk losing everything if the stars align and I get the wrong 12 people in a room.
It's amazing how easily one ambitious official could work the system if they're determined.
posted by Talez at 7:31 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I can't go anywhere near a BLM protest for this very reason. If I'm arrested and the prosecution wants to make an example of me they can overcharge me with assault on an officer, call ICE, and have me transferred to federal custody at which point I'll probably have to spend a few days in federal custody which could be anywhere in the country, hire a very expensive immigration attorney and post federal bail (in full, no 10% here).
If ICE aren't finished with me before a local court date the local court can tack on more fees and also put a warrant out for my arrest. They know I can't plead out quickly to lesser charges but since this is purely for my harassment it doesn't matter if they roll the dice and lose.
Even with my privileged access to almost unlimited legal resources via family and friends, along with my white skin, an overeager prosecutor could make my life hell for months. It makes me feel like a chicken shit piece of garbage that I can't stand up but I risk losing everything if the stars align and I get the wrong 12 people in a room.
It's amazing how easily one ambitious official could work the system if they're determined.
posted by Talez at 7:31 PM on July 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Twitter is saying her name is Leshia Evans, although it's also being spelled Leisha and Ieshia.
Friends are saying she's been released.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 7:34 PM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Friends are saying she's been released.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 7:34 PM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I can't go anywhere near a BLM protest for this very reason.
I can't go anywhere near one because I'm trans and I'm terrified of men's jails. (I'm not minimizing your post at all, those are legit fears too.)
posted by AFABulous at 7:36 PM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
I can't go anywhere near one because I'm trans and I'm terrified of men's jails. (I'm not minimizing your post at all, those are legit fears too.)
posted by AFABulous at 7:36 PM on July 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
There are lots of things you can do that don't involve going to protests. I have friends who are white who still can't get arrested for various reasons (previous arrests, PTSD, transness and safety concerns, would get fired). Torpedoing your life for one moment of arrest at a mass protest isn't necessary. (Unless it is - but if circumstances become that extraordinary, you will know.)
You can raise funds - host a party, hit up your friends, auction a craft, etc.
You can seek out policy-oriented groups in your town. Protest is very visible, but many of the same people who are out there on the front lines also spend a lot of time in city council meetings, public hearings, etc. You can do that - even if it's only to show up on occasion to pack a meeting or testify.
You can do court support for arrestees.
You can offer your services to groups that support the cause - facebook pages need moderating, websites need updating, press releases need releasing, meetings need minutes taken, etc.
You can also contact your city council member, other legislators, etc.
For me, the most difficult thing with those long-term things is that they require either a flexible or very stable schedule - not the kind of "I am going to have some unpredictability and it will be absolutely inflexible" that I seem to run into lately.
But my point is that there is an enormous amount of really valuable stuff to do that does not involve going to protests. It's easy to get into the mindset that if you are a real activist you will totally mess up your life getting arrested, but this is a toxic meme from macho left people and you can disregard it. Some real activists do that, some don't. I know many real activists who have done good work over many years who are not actually out there under the tear gas.
I mean, in some ways I go to protests because my schedule is weird and I'm a huge introvert - it's something I can do at times when I can't do other stuff. I would be doing more policy-oriented things except a lot of hearings, etc, seem to happen during my work day. (There's a reason that students, retirees and Serious Movement People With Contract Work do a lot of this stuff - they have the time.)
posted by Frowner at 7:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
You can raise funds - host a party, hit up your friends, auction a craft, etc.
You can seek out policy-oriented groups in your town. Protest is very visible, but many of the same people who are out there on the front lines also spend a lot of time in city council meetings, public hearings, etc. You can do that - even if it's only to show up on occasion to pack a meeting or testify.
You can do court support for arrestees.
You can offer your services to groups that support the cause - facebook pages need moderating, websites need updating, press releases need releasing, meetings need minutes taken, etc.
You can also contact your city council member, other legislators, etc.
For me, the most difficult thing with those long-term things is that they require either a flexible or very stable schedule - not the kind of "I am going to have some unpredictability and it will be absolutely inflexible" that I seem to run into lately.
But my point is that there is an enormous amount of really valuable stuff to do that does not involve going to protests. It's easy to get into the mindset that if you are a real activist you will totally mess up your life getting arrested, but this is a toxic meme from macho left people and you can disregard it. Some real activists do that, some don't. I know many real activists who have done good work over many years who are not actually out there under the tear gas.
I mean, in some ways I go to protests because my schedule is weird and I'm a huge introvert - it's something I can do at times when I can't do other stuff. I would be doing more policy-oriented things except a lot of hearings, etc, seem to happen during my work day. (There's a reason that students, retirees and Serious Movement People With Contract Work do a lot of this stuff - they have the time.)
posted by Frowner at 7:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [22 favorites]
One of the reporters arrested and held with Deray last night was Lee Stranahan, "Lead Investigative Reporter at Breitbart News." In his Twitter feed, he says: I can't stress this enough: not only do I believe my imprisonment was unconstitutional but I believe the other protesters was as well.
Deray retweeted that, adding: .@stranahan, it was good to talk in the Parrish jail cell, & it is important that you tell this truth on Breitbart.
You know the old saying about a liberal being a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet ... maybe we will see a jailhouse conversion of a conservative. One can hope.
In an otherwise bleak night, there is some good Twitter fun at the #DerayHasBeenReleasedParty
posted by madamjujujive at 7:57 PM on July 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
Deray retweeted that, adding: .@stranahan, it was good to talk in the Parrish jail cell, & it is important that you tell this truth on Breitbart.
You know the old saying about a liberal being a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet ... maybe we will see a jailhouse conversion of a conservative. One can hope.
In an otherwise bleak night, there is some good Twitter fun at the #DerayHasBeenReleasedParty
posted by madamjujujive at 7:57 PM on July 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
Article in The Atlantic about the Kerner Report of 1968 and how we ignored it. This is from the second, softened-up version.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:58 PM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
The police received the most scrutiny in the report. In a haunting section, the report explained, “Negroes firmly believe that police brutality and harassment occur repeatedly in Negro neighborhoods.” The rioting had shown that police enforcement had become a problem not a solution in race relations. More aggressive policing and militarized officers had become city officials’ de facto response to urban decay. “In several cities, the principal response has been to train and equip the police with more sophisticated weapons.” The report stressed that law-enforcement officers were not “merely a spark factor” to the riots but that they had come to symbolize “white power, white racism, and white oppression.”Nixon took this and ran with it, much to society's detriment.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:58 PM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Oh, I know. I donated money and food and blankets and stayed outside the jail when the Dontre Hamilton protests were going on in Milwaukee. And like I said above, I make it a mission to take the heat off POC who are getting harassed online. I just wish I felt safe doing more.
posted by AFABulous at 7:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 7:59 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh my gosh I was just running over here to post about that Breitbart reporter. That is delicious.
posted by prefpara at 8:01 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 8:01 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Before killing Alton Sterling, Baton Rouge police had a history of brutality complaints
The Baton Rouge Police Department – like so many other departments across the country – is notorious for its brutal treatment of black people. And the confrontation that ensued between Sterling and Officers Blane Salamoni and Howie Lake II should be discussed within its proper context. The Baton Rouge Police Department has a history of brutality against black people.posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:52 PM on July 10, 2016 [50 favorites]
Many law enforcement officials came to Louisiana immediately after Hurricane Katrina to provide reinforcements, and one state trooper from Michigan said Baton Rouge police attempted to thank him for his help by letting him "beat down" a prisoner. A trooper from New Mexico wrote a letter to the Baton Rouge police expressing the concerns of seven New Mexico troopers and five Michigan troopers that Baton Rouge police were engaging in racially motivated enforcement, that they were physically abusing prisoners and the public and that they were stopping, questioning and searching people without any legal justification.
In case you weren't paying attention, I'll repeat it: The people accusing Baton Rouge police of brutality and racism were other law enforcement officials.
I just came across this footage from the protests in Baton Rouge on Twitter. I'm speechless. The hairs on my arms are still standing up.
(Commentary from the owner of the property.)
Above all, may everything remain peaceful. But also, may these protests continue for days, weeks, months if necessary. However long it takes. This is an uprising.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:16 PM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
(Commentary from the owner of the property.)
Above all, may everything remain peaceful. But also, may these protests continue for days, weeks, months if necessary. However long it takes. This is an uprising.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:16 PM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
More video from Baton Rouge: ferocity and bravery.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:23 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:23 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
But some right-wingers either refuse to believe that there is a lack of equality (the belief that we're living in a post-racial America), or they believe but (generally) won't say that black lives don't really matter, especially when compared to white lives (or blue lives, or any other group of lives).
Otherwise, how can it be racist to strive for basic equality?
I think a lot of the deliberately obtuse "all lives matter" crowd (as opposed to the majority who simply don't understand it and/or have blindly followed Rudy Giuliani and right-wing media off the cliff) believe that everyone was a lot better off before Obama became President when racial issues were more conveniently ignored and they could reasonably believe the lie that they lived in a post-racial America. It was obvious hogwash--it's not like society acted like black lives mattered back then either--, but it was easier for privileged people to maintain the fiction.
In short, they're MLK's "white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice." They'd prefer everybody shut up and go back where they came from, and they somehow think that platitudes, the same platitudes that got is in this position in the first place, can help accomplish that goal.
posted by zachlipton at 9:23 PM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Otherwise, how can it be racist to strive for basic equality?
I think a lot of the deliberately obtuse "all lives matter" crowd (as opposed to the majority who simply don't understand it and/or have blindly followed Rudy Giuliani and right-wing media off the cliff) believe that everyone was a lot better off before Obama became President when racial issues were more conveniently ignored and they could reasonably believe the lie that they lived in a post-racial America. It was obvious hogwash--it's not like society acted like black lives mattered back then either--, but it was easier for privileged people to maintain the fiction.
In short, they're MLK's "white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice." They'd prefer everybody shut up and go back where they came from, and they somehow think that platitudes, the same platitudes that got is in this position in the first place, can help accomplish that goal.
posted by zachlipton at 9:23 PM on July 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
A Kansas police officer has been fired after his superiors say he posted a bizarre and apparently threatening message on the photo of a black Texas woman's young daughter in the wake of Thursday's sniper killing of five Dallas cops.
The officer from the Overland Park Police Department used his personal account to send an ominous message to LaNaydra Williams' Facebook page beneath a public photo of her 5-year-old daughter just after the Dallas attack.
“We’ll see how much her life matters soon,” read the message, which was written on a years old photo of Williams' daughter, India. “Better be careful leaving your info open where she can be found :) Hold her close tonight it’ll be the last time.”
WTF is going on? So glad he got fired. I hope he is watched closely.
posted by futz at 9:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
The officer from the Overland Park Police Department used his personal account to send an ominous message to LaNaydra Williams' Facebook page beneath a public photo of her 5-year-old daughter just after the Dallas attack.
“We’ll see how much her life matters soon,” read the message, which was written on a years old photo of Williams' daughter, India. “Better be careful leaving your info open where she can be found :) Hold her close tonight it’ll be the last time.”
WTF is going on? So glad he got fired. I hope he is watched closely.
posted by futz at 9:41 PM on July 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
In short, they're MLK's "white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice." They'd prefer everybody shut up and go back where they came from, and they somehow think that platitudes, the same platitudes that got is in this position in the first place, can help accomplish that goal.
Indeed my observation anong my friends and relatives is that there are many white people who think that if black people (especially the president) would just shut up about racism, it would magically go away.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:44 PM on July 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
Indeed my observation anong my friends and relatives is that there are many white people who think that if black people (especially the president) would just shut up about racism, it would magically go away.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:44 PM on July 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
I'm starting to see changes. My mom, a dyed-in-the-wool suburban Eisenhower "Phil-an-do? Sounds black..." status-quo'er who historically front-loads any description or complaint with a mention of the race of the people involved, has brought up, unprompted, how terrible Orlando was, and last week her disgust at the videos of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile.
I'm not sure what it means yet, but I'm pretty sure it's significant that a 79 year old white California Republican woman is even saying these things.
posted by rhizome at 10:03 PM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm not sure what it means yet, but I'm pretty sure it's significant that a 79 year old white California Republican woman is even saying these things.
posted by rhizome at 10:03 PM on July 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Here's footage of the protesters playing Purple Rain to the riot police in St Paul last night (as described by Frowner above).
And in Baton Rouge, someone started singing "Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me Around" to the police--pretty sure this is the same location, possibly just before, the footage where they storm across and arrest the people gathered in that woman's yard.
In Chicago, two demonstrations converge, and a bunch of kids launch into "we gonna be alright."
Old freedom songs, and new ones.
posted by karayel at 10:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
And in Baton Rouge, someone started singing "Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me Around" to the police--pretty sure this is the same location, possibly just before, the footage where they storm across and arrest the people gathered in that woman's yard.
In Chicago, two demonstrations converge, and a bunch of kids launch into "we gonna be alright."
Old freedom songs, and new ones.
posted by karayel at 10:37 PM on July 10, 2016 [23 favorites]
Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:47 PM on July 10, 2016
But to be young was very heaven!
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:47 PM on July 10, 2016
I'm trying to find out what's happening to a friend in BR tonight. He's briefly visible in this video linked by escape from the potato planet. He said he was all right, posted to FB from the paddy wagon, but he would say he's okay even if he's not, you know?
The BRPD phone lines are slammed, nobody is getting through, and Anonymous has kindly knocked all their websites out so I can't search for info online. Anyone have any leads?
posted by cmyk at 11:02 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
The BRPD phone lines are slammed, nobody is getting through, and Anonymous has kindly knocked all their websites out so I can't search for info online. Anyone have any leads?
posted by cmyk at 11:02 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Protesters forming a peace sign in an intersection in Inglewood. CBS LA stream.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:06 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 11:06 PM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
but he would say he's okay even if he's not, you know?
I really hope that your friend is ok! My thought is that if he still has his phone and was able to post then he is ok. So sorry that this is happening to your friend. Can you or someone you know put out a tweet to the BRPD letting them know that you know that he is in custody?
posted by futz at 11:46 PM on July 10, 2016
I really hope that your friend is ok! My thought is that if he still has his phone and was able to post then he is ok. So sorry that this is happening to your friend. Can you or someone you know put out a tweet to the BRPD letting them know that you know that he is in custody?
posted by futz at 11:46 PM on July 10, 2016
Maybe a tweet is a bad idea because then he is singled out. Someone more experienced than me will perhaps chime in. If it were me, I'd try and relax and wait things out unless you know that he is in danger. Not much that you can do other than call a lawyer for him if you have the means and/or ability. Good luck cmyk.
posted by futz at 11:51 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 11:51 PM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
cmyk, you might try contacting the National Lawyers' Guild legal hotline at 225-341-2287 to let them know that he was arrested. NLG observers at demos usually try to get names from arrested protesters as it's happening (or as they're loaded into police vans later), but the situation in Baton Rouge looks sufficiently chaotic that they may not have been present or able to keep tabs on all the arrests. But if they have his info they'll be able to look for him and offer legal assistance. I don't know whether they're allowed to share any information with you, though, for privacy reasons. But it can't hurt to check.
posted by karayel at 11:58 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by karayel at 11:58 PM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
n.b. that hotline was apparently set up specifically for current Baton Rouge jail support, and it looks like protesters were doing a great job of circulating the number among themselves earlier today. Also, this was linked above but the NLG Louisiana chapter can also be contacted on FB.
posted by karayel at 12:08 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by karayel at 12:08 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
AFABulous - I'm Trans too (transmasculine), and I've been thinking a lot lately on how that transition may impact my activism. I go to protests, and livetweet out what happens at them, complete with photographs. Sometimes, I'm the only one there doing this activist work. And some of those protests get really violent. However, I love doing it, and I find Citizen Journalism to be really fulfilling.
Because I'm just at the start of transitioning, and not on Testosterone (medical reasons), I'm still read as 'female' - which, while annoying 99% of the time, has been a literal Godsend when dealing with police at these events. They read me as a little middle-aged white lady, deem me the least threatening person around, and let me go about as long as I don't get in their way - and I can use this privilege to get the word out about what's going on. I don't know what would happen if I were to suddenly get read as a white male by the authorities, in the middle of a protest.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:28 AM on July 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Because I'm just at the start of transitioning, and not on Testosterone (medical reasons), I'm still read as 'female' - which, while annoying 99% of the time, has been a literal Godsend when dealing with police at these events. They read me as a little middle-aged white lady, deem me the least threatening person around, and let me go about as long as I don't get in their way - and I can use this privilege to get the word out about what's going on. I don't know what would happen if I were to suddenly get read as a white male by the authorities, in the middle of a protest.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:28 AM on July 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
This video is totally on point, escape from the potato planet. Brilliant.
posted by bigZLiLk at 2:55 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bigZLiLk at 2:55 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's interesting enough, and complex enough, to really deserve it's own FPP, but it also fits here: Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings (NYT article).
posted by Dip Flash at 5:53 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.It's far from the last word on the subject and they are open about the limitations of their data sources, but it is not at all the result I was expecting. If I am reading it correctly, it seems like the bias lies in who officers get into confrontations with in the first place, which leads to the disproportionate rates of shootings, and there is a lot of bias in the use of non-deadly force but once those confrontations start there is not bias in the use of deadly force. And the researcher talks about the corrosive and corrupt nature of the lack of consequences for the use of excessive (but non-lethal) force, which gets at a lot of the criticisms of "stop and frisk" policies and the like as both unconstitutional and counterproductive.
But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.
“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than a thousand shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:53 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
From the article:
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:13 AM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
From the article:
The study did not say whether the most egregious examples — the kind of killings at the heart of the nation’s debate on police shootings — are free of racial bias. Instead, it examined a much larger pool of shootings, including nonfatal ones.There are so many qualifying statements and admittedly limited focus that it doesn't seem as the study is germane to officers killing black folks. That doesn't mean its useless, but it's not as related to recent events as the headline hints.
Official statistics on police shootings are poor. James Comey, the F.B.I. director, has called the lack of data “embarrassing and ridiculous.” Even when data exists, the conditions under which officers decide to fire their weapons are deeply nuanced and complex.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:13 AM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
I agree. The lack of good data and consistent reporting by police makes it almost impossible to know what is really going on, nor are there clear national standards for use of force in the first place.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:29 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:29 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can anyone recommend some (relatively credible) Twitter accounts to follow for information on events as they evolve? I have never been an active user of Twitter, but this might have changed that. The difference between the sanitized, talking-head, highly selective coverage from the commercial media, and the raw images from the street, is astounding.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:32 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:32 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's the bizarre thing about America, the baked in resistant to Federal rules/standards etc. So much of the thinking is still based around very local standards, which do scale well at all.
Strange to think that the American revolution might have been a long term mistake.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Strange to think that the American revolution might have been a long term mistake.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
escape from the potato planet, there is a good list provided above.
posted by prefpara at 6:35 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by prefpara at 6:35 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks, prefpara.
I would also appreciate tactical resources for demonstrators: how to handle yourself in police standoffs, how to support fellow demonstrators, information about police tactics such as kettling, how to communicate, etc.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:37 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would also appreciate tactical resources for demonstrators: how to handle yourself in police standoffs, how to support fellow demonstrators, information about police tactics such as kettling, how to communicate, etc.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:37 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
My song at MeFi Music will serve as a personal commentary on the situation.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:59 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:59 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't think they would have been any more forgiving of anyone of any color who had just shot 11 people, killing several.
They brought Dylann Roof down without harming him. Oh, but he killed black people, so I guess maybe his killings don't count? Or something?
posted by palomar at 7:27 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
They brought Dylann Roof down without harming him. Oh, but he killed black people, so I guess maybe his killings don't count? Or something?
posted by palomar at 7:27 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dylann Roof surrendered. I wish people would stop using him as an example.
posted by AFABulous at 7:45 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 7:45 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
And I wish people would stop saying it's okay with them that this man was killed when we have countless white gunmen who have been brought down without harm, but my grandma always said wishing builds character.
posted by palomar at 7:48 AM on July 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by palomar at 7:48 AM on July 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Interesting fact, there's footage of Dylan Roof surrendering.
And I wish people would stop saying it's okay with them that this man was killed when we have countless white gunmen who have been brought down without harm
I wish people would come up with decent examples to support their seeing this killing strictly through racism. It's as if nothing else that occurred that night matters, only the color of his skin.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:00 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
And I think that refusing to admit that race played a part in this killing is part of the huge problem that we're stuck in right now. And that anyone bringing up race is painted as only seeing this killing as a race issue is some reductionist bullshit.
posted by palomar at 8:05 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by palomar at 8:05 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks, folks. We put in calls to the emergency BR bail fund - he's got a memorable first name, so when I mentioned him it was "Oh, [LASTNAME?] His dad called already."
Charges finally went up through EBRSO's site - resisting arrest and obstructing a street. And a friend in BR is there to pick him up. So now we wait for one of the orgs to get back in touch, I guess.
Interesting, isn't it, that the police clearly herded them all down a side road that wasn't on the protest permit and then arrested them for being on it.
posted by cmyk at 8:10 AM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Charges finally went up through EBRSO's site - resisting arrest and obstructing a street. And a friend in BR is there to pick him up. So now we wait for one of the orgs to get back in touch, I guess.
Interesting, isn't it, that the police clearly herded them all down a side road that wasn't on the protest permit and then arrested them for being on it.
posted by cmyk at 8:10 AM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
Am I the only person who thinks that publishing an article featuring a single yet-to-be-peer-reviewed paper (and not other related papers), now, at this time, is not the best display of editorial judgment by the NYT?
The paper itself is more nuanced than what is presented in the NYT piece. Still digesting it. There is some good discussion, but one aspect of the premise of the paper strikes me as odd. The conclusion given is that if the police stop you, you are not more likely to be killed if you are black (though you are more likely to be treated aggressively even by police officers' own accounts).
But isn't the larger issue that black and brown people are much more likely to be stopped at all (often unconstitutionally I might add)? By pinning the baseline metric at "per interaction", you are losing a huge part of the story and the problem.
posted by AceRock at 8:12 AM on July 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
Am I the only person who thinks that publishing an article featuring a single yet-to-be-peer-reviewed paper (and not other related papers), now, at this time, is not the best display of editorial judgment by the NYT?
The paper itself is more nuanced than what is presented in the NYT piece. Still digesting it. There is some good discussion, but one aspect of the premise of the paper strikes me as odd. The conclusion given is that if the police stop you, you are not more likely to be killed if you are black (though you are more likely to be treated aggressively even by police officers' own accounts).
But isn't the larger issue that black and brown people are much more likely to be stopped at all (often unconstitutionally I might add)? By pinning the baseline metric at "per interaction", you are losing a huge part of the story and the problem.
posted by AceRock at 8:12 AM on July 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
And I think that refusing to admit that race played a part in this killing is part of the huge problem that we're stuck in right now.
Where's the proof or hint of it that race played a part, beyond the shooter was black and killed by police?
I'm open to the possibility that it may turn out to be racist once more facts are know, or video or audio is released, but not seeing the racist angle at this point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:18 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where's the proof or hint of it that race played a part, beyond the shooter was black and killed by police?
I'm open to the possibility that it may turn out to be racist once more facts are know, or video or audio is released, but not seeing the racist angle at this point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:18 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
AceRock: "(and not other related papers)"
Amplifying this:
A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014
some quotes:
"It is worth noting, that on average across counties in the United States, an individual is as likely to be {black, unarmed, and shot by police} as {white, armed, and shot by police}"
"The median probability across counties of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is 3.49 (PCI95: 1.77, 6.04) times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police}."
posted by secretseasons at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Amplifying this:
A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014
some quotes:
"It is worth noting, that on average across counties in the United States, an individual is as likely to be {black, unarmed, and shot by police} as {white, armed, and shot by police}"
"The median probability across counties of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is 3.49 (PCI95: 1.77, 6.04) times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police}."
posted by secretseasons at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
By pinning the baseline metric at "per interaction", you are losing a huge part of the story and the problem.
100% agreed. The referenced article is akin to arguing that asbestos isn't that dangerous because per exposure it's not likely to cause cancer, while ignoring that continuing to allow its frequent use in industry means some people will be exposed significantly more frequently and over longer periods of time.
posted by tocts at 8:20 AM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
100% agreed. The referenced article is akin to arguing that asbestos isn't that dangerous because per exposure it's not likely to cause cancer, while ignoring that continuing to allow its frequent use in industry means some people will be exposed significantly more frequently and over longer periods of time.
posted by tocts at 8:20 AM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Dallas chief says US police being asked to fix too many problems, incl. "70% of the African American community being raised by single women"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:33 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:33 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
But isn't the larger issue that black and brown people are much more likely to be stopped at all (often unconstitutionally I might add)? By pinning the baseline metric at "per interaction", you are losing a huge part of the story and the problem.
Indeed, Philando Castile was stopped 52 times in 14 years. More than half of the citations were dismissed.
posted by zachlipton at 8:35 AM on July 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
Indeed, Philando Castile was stopped 52 times in 14 years. More than half of the citations were dismissed.
posted by zachlipton at 8:35 AM on July 11, 2016 [16 favorites]
And I think that refusing to admit that race played a part in this killing is part of the huge problem that we're stuck in right now. And that anyone bringing up race is painted as only seeing this killing as a race issue is some reductionist bullshit.
No one is refusing that. I think the only pushback here is that focusing on this one aspect in the way it's playing out in this thread is coming across as tone deaf, axe-grindy and weird.
I'm guessing none of us here are going to be involved in a shootout with the police at any point in the future. Meanwhile, I have to get in my car and drive to work every damn day. When A broken taillight can get you shot, the safety of active mass shooters is a weird hill to die on. Even of your point is valid, you've still overshot the mark by quite a bit.
posted by billyfleetwood at 8:36 AM on July 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
No one is refusing that. I think the only pushback here is that focusing on this one aspect in the way it's playing out in this thread is coming across as tone deaf, axe-grindy and weird.
I'm guessing none of us here are going to be involved in a shootout with the police at any point in the future. Meanwhile, I have to get in my car and drive to work every damn day. When A broken taillight can get you shot, the safety of active mass shooters is a weird hill to die on. Even of your point is valid, you've still overshot the mark by quite a bit.
posted by billyfleetwood at 8:36 AM on July 11, 2016 [13 favorites]
Dallas chief says US police being asked to fix too many problems, incl. "70% of the African American community being raised by single women"
You arrest their fathers, blame the problem on single parent families and then arrest their sons who are now fathers.
How can someone be so fucking dense?
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on July 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
You arrest their fathers, blame the problem on single parent families and then arrest their sons who are now fathers.
How can someone be so fucking dense?
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on July 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
"70% of the African American community being raised by single women"
Where did the men go?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:39 AM on July 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Where did the men go?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:39 AM on July 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
And it's not even really true:
posted by zombieflanders at 8:39 AM on July 11, 2016 [47 favorites]
[I]n its coverage of the study, the Los Angeles Times noted that the results “defy stereotypes about black fatherhood” because the CDC found that black dads are more involved with their kids on a daily basis than dads from other racial groupsAs asavage would say, I think we should put this myth in the "BUSTED" category
[...]
In some cases, the differences between black fathers and white or Latino fathers weren’t statistically significant. Nonetheless, the fact that there’s no dramatic drop-off for African-American fathers is still a surprising revelation for some people.
Considering the fact that “black fatherhood” is a phrase that is almost always accompanied by the word “crisis” in U.S. society, it’s understandable that the CDC’s results seem innovative. But in reality, the new data builds upon years of research that’s concluded that hands-on parenting is similar among dads of all races. There’s plenty of scientific evidence to bust this racially-biased myth.
The Pew Research Center, which has tracked this data for years, consistently finds no big differences between white and black fathers. Gretchen Livingston, one of the senior researchers studying family life at Pew, wasn’t at all surprised by the new CDC data. “Blacks look a lot like everyone else,” she pointed out.
Although black fathers are more likely to live separately from their children — the statistic that’s usually trotted out to prove the parenting “crisis” — many of them remain just as involved in their kids’ lives. Pew estimates that 67 percent of black dads who don’t live with their kids see them at least once a month, compared to 59 percent of white dads and just 32 percent of Hispanic dads.
And there’s compelling evidence that number of black dads living apart from their kids stems from structural systems of inequality and poverty, not the unfounded assumption that African-American men somehow place less value on parenting. Equal numbers of black dads and white dads tend to agree that it’s important to be a father who provides emotional support, discipline, and moral guidance. There’s one area of divergence in the way the two groups approach their parental responsibilities: Black dads are even more likely to think it’s important to financially provide for their children.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:39 AM on July 11, 2016 [47 favorites]
pinning the baseline metric at "per interaction", you are losing a huge part of the story and the problem.
That is a much better and more direct way to say what I didn't articulate well at all in my comment. Once the incident starts, bias doesn't seem to show up in the deadly force numbers, but bias shows strongly in who the police choose to confront.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:46 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
That is a much better and more direct way to say what I didn't articulate well at all in my comment. Once the incident starts, bias doesn't seem to show up in the deadly force numbers, but bias shows strongly in who the police choose to confront.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:46 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
There appears to me to be tendency of people to put boundaries around where facts apply to a situation and where they cease to apply to a situation then defend that frame of reference without really trying to incorporate larger or different frames of view into their POV.
Which leads to really strange places for me because I can zero in on the tight frame and go "oh yeah I see how you can think that but the larger dataset/anecdata indicates nuances that I believe are important to the frame too" and the response to that is more defending of the frame and/or unwillingness to interact with the information being provided, it can feel like ambivalent indifference sometimes.
I think this may be a result of being taught that epistemological/original data is inherently untrustworthy, but in the cases of class and identity oppression, the ability to gather factual data is severely impaired by bias leaving us largely with only epistemological and original research to draw upon. So there's this gap between what people accept as reality-based, valid information and I don't really know how to bridge it, though I wish I could find the way.
It's something I see happen a lot in the world and I don't really know what to make of it beyond this.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:59 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which leads to really strange places for me because I can zero in on the tight frame and go "oh yeah I see how you can think that but the larger dataset/anecdata indicates nuances that I believe are important to the frame too" and the response to that is more defending of the frame and/or unwillingness to interact with the information being provided, it can feel like ambivalent indifference sometimes.
I think this may be a result of being taught that epistemological/original data is inherently untrustworthy, but in the cases of class and identity oppression, the ability to gather factual data is severely impaired by bias leaving us largely with only epistemological and original research to draw upon. So there's this gap between what people accept as reality-based, valid information and I don't really know how to bridge it, though I wish I could find the way.
It's something I see happen a lot in the world and I don't really know what to make of it beyond this.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:59 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Looks like the explosion did not occur in the parking garage. Police Chief said it was on the 2nd floor of a building. And that 2 students hid in the building all night afraid to come out of hiding.
posted by futz at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by futz at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2016
Chief said that there had been confusion in the media as to the location of the bombing and that they would release more info soon along with a timeline in a few days.
posted by futz at 9:07 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 9:07 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
"2nd floor of a building"
That would be inside El Centro Community College then, if my memories of that parking garage serve me right?
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:08 AM on July 11, 2016
That would be inside El Centro Community College then, if my memories of that parking garage serve me right?
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:08 AM on July 11, 2016
Hey futz do you have link to where this is being said? Is the chief giving another interview and if so, where (i.e. what station)?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:15 AM on July 11, 2016
Chief said there was no ethical dilemma for him in using the robot and would do it again. Pointing out that officers had already been shot.
He said it only took 15-20 minutes to get the robot plan together.
BB, It just finished airing on msnbc.
posted by futz at 9:16 AM on July 11, 2016
He said it only took 15-20 minutes to get the robot plan together.
BB, It just finished airing on msnbc.
posted by futz at 9:16 AM on July 11, 2016
Brandon, the Washington Post website has a live stream. (Not sure if it's still ongoing.)
posted by OmieWise at 9:16 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by OmieWise at 9:16 AM on July 11, 2016
There appears to me to be tendency of people to put boundaries around where facts apply to a situation and where they cease to apply to a situation then defend that frame of reference without really trying to incorporate larger or different frames of view into their POV.
This is oddly passive voiced, but I think the discussion here has been about what you identify as the frame for the police bombing, and not somehow simply some people building a frame and then defending a frame in which race, eg, does not factor into that bombing. The discussion has been quite explicit.
I'd also remind people that having the discussion over text can leave out what might otherwise be information deemed pertinent. For instance, at least two of the people saying that race does make sense to them as a determinative factor in the bombing are African American. So, while there is of course room for disagreement and discussion on this, it's not simply a case of a bunch of whitesplaining.
posted by OmieWise at 9:21 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is oddly passive voiced, but I think the discussion here has been about what you identify as the frame for the police bombing, and not somehow simply some people building a frame and then defending a frame in which race, eg, does not factor into that bombing. The discussion has been quite explicit.
I'd also remind people that having the discussion over text can leave out what might otherwise be information deemed pertinent. For instance, at least two of the people saying that race does make sense to them as a determinative factor in the bombing are African American. So, while there is of course room for disagreement and discussion on this, it's not simply a case of a bunch of whitesplaining.
posted by OmieWise at 9:21 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, in Memphis last night, a BLM protest shut down the 1-40 bridge over the Mississippi. The cops did not show up in riot gear, there was no violence, no arrests, and the Chief of Police marched arm in arm with the protestors as they left the bridge. Today, the Mayor is meeting with BLM representatives to discuss racial disparities in policing. I'm proud of my city right now.
posted by vibrotronica at 9:28 AM on July 11, 2016 [70 favorites]
posted by vibrotronica at 9:28 AM on July 11, 2016 [70 favorites]
Anyone got a link to the full press conference that futz mentioned? All I'm seeing are snippets on twitter, ABC News has the most, but still just snippets.
Key points I've seen:
Key points I've seen:
- Detectives reviewing 300+ statements to determine who needs to be brought in for interviews.
- 13 officers used force against the subject; 11 used firearms, 2 used explosive devices.
- Dallas Police Chief: "There's over 170 hours of body camera video to download."
- Dallas Chief: "To be quiet honest, I'm running on fumes...my brain is fried."
- Dallas Chief: "My family has received death threats almost immediately after the shooting."
- Dallas Police Chief on his officers: "Bravery is not a strong enough word to describe what they did that day."
John McWhorter: There’s a reason black Americans say racism persists: The cops.
posted by OmieWise at 9:52 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 9:52 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Stop asking black victims of white violence if they forgive their victimizers
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:57 AM on July 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:57 AM on July 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Hey Brandon, here is a search that I did. Cannot vouch for any of them.
posted by futz at 9:57 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by futz at 9:57 AM on July 11, 2016
Some of the linked are long enough to be the full news conf.
posted by futz at 9:58 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by futz at 9:58 AM on July 11, 2016
Baton Rouge DA recuses himself from Alton Sterling case due to personal connections to one of the officers
"Moore cited his relationship with the parents of Baton Rouge Officer Blane Salamoni, one of the two officers involved in the shooting. Salamoni is the officer who fired the shots that killed Sterling early Tuesday, a source with knowledge of the investigation confirmed to The Advocate last week.
Moore said he has frequently worked with Salamoni's parents, both high-ranking career police officers, during his 42-year career."
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:14 AM on July 11, 2016
"Moore cited his relationship with the parents of Baton Rouge Officer Blane Salamoni, one of the two officers involved in the shooting. Salamoni is the officer who fired the shots that killed Sterling early Tuesday, a source with knowledge of the investigation confirmed to The Advocate last week.
Moore said he has frequently worked with Salamoni's parents, both high-ranking career police officers, during his 42-year career."
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:14 AM on July 11, 2016
Sorry, I missed the edit window, but my comment above says the opposite of what I sought to say. It should say:
"For instance, at least two of the people saying that race does NOT make sense to them as a determinative factor in the bombing are African American. So, while there is of course room for disagreement and discussion on this, it's not simply a case of a bunch of whitesplaining."
posted by OmieWise at 10:15 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
"For instance, at least two of the people saying that race does NOT make sense to them as a determinative factor in the bombing are African American. So, while there is of course room for disagreement and discussion on this, it's not simply a case of a bunch of whitesplaining."
posted by OmieWise at 10:15 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks! This seems to be the one, link where the pressers starts. The previous footage is just the tech crews setting up cameras and the like.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:16 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:16 AM on July 11, 2016
Dallas chief says US police being asked to fix too many problems, incl. "70% of the African American community being raised by single women"
You arrest their fathers, blame the problem on single parent families and then arrest their sons who are now fathers.
How can someone be so fucking dense?
posted by Talez at 11:37 AM on July 11
CNN:
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:41 AM on July 11, 2016
You arrest their fathers, blame the problem on single parent families and then arrest their sons who are now fathers.
How can someone be so fucking dense?
posted by Talez at 11:37 AM on July 11
CNN:
Just weeks after Brown was sworn in as chief, a gunman killed an officer from the nearby Lancaster Police Department and a young father on Father's Day 2010.His partner was killed on the job and his younger brother was killed by drug dealers.
The cop killer turned out to be the police chief's son, David Brown Jr.
Lancaster police responded to the scene and fatally shot Brown Jr. more than a dozen times. An autopsy revealed he had PCP, marijuana and alcohol in his system, CNN affiliate KTVT reported.
The newly minted Dallas police chief was at a loss for words.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:41 AM on July 11, 2016
His partner was killed on the job and his younger brother was killed by drug dealers.
I'm not sure how personal tragedy converts to cops being not responsible in the chain of cause and effect he lays down.
It's like when someone grabs your hand and asks "why are you hitting yourself?" as they make your hand slap your face repeatedly and when you complain about the logic of the situation someone comes up and says "well his mother died of cancer".
posted by Talez at 10:52 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how personal tragedy converts to cops being not responsible in the chain of cause and effect he lays down.
It's like when someone grabs your hand and asks "why are you hitting yourself?" as they make your hand slap your face repeatedly and when you complain about the logic of the situation someone comes up and says "well his mother died of cancer".
posted by Talez at 10:52 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would suggest, Talez, that the analogy would conclude more succinctly if it ended with "Well, his coworkers killed his sun in the same manner"
posted by rebent at 10:59 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rebent at 10:59 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how personal tragedy converts to cops being not responsible in the chain of cause and effect he lays down.
No one, including you, said anything about personal responsibility. You impugned his intelligence with strong language. Personal tragedy may indeed make someone "dense" when confronted with situations that touch on that tragedy very directly. So, your question was answered, in a way that should profoundly humanize Chief Brown for you, and it seems like your only response is to wave all that away to take a fresh crack at him.
posted by OmieWise at 11:02 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
No one, including you, said anything about personal responsibility. You impugned his intelligence with strong language. Personal tragedy may indeed make someone "dense" when confronted with situations that touch on that tragedy very directly. So, your question was answered, in a way that should profoundly humanize Chief Brown for you, and it seems like your only response is to wave all that away to take a fresh crack at him.
posted by OmieWise at 11:02 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
No one, including you, said anything about personal responsibility.
There's no personal responsibility only in aggregate and it's very much implied. The cops take the fathers away from black youth then this guy points the finger at black youth not having a father.
posted by Talez at 11:05 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's no personal responsibility only in aggregate and it's very much implied. The cops take the fathers away from black youth then this guy points the finger at black youth not having a father.
posted by Talez at 11:05 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, I understand the sociology and agree that it's a horrible thing to turn around on the people who are victims.
posted by OmieWise at 11:11 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by OmieWise at 11:11 AM on July 11, 2016
"'We’re hiring. Get off that protest line and put an application in."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:18 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:18 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
"We're hiring."
One: ...
Two: Yeah, because a Black Lives Matter activist (1) is going to get hired to a major metropolitan police force, and (2) is going to be welcomed like a brother by the existing force.
(I almost phrased that as "the existing troops", unthinkingly.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:25 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
One: ...
Two: Yeah, because a Black Lives Matter activist (1) is going to get hired to a major metropolitan police force, and (2) is going to be welcomed like a brother by the existing force.
(I almost phrased that as "the existing troops", unthinkingly.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:25 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why does it have to be a choice, chief?
posted by phearlez at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
From the PhotographyIsNotACrime.com link:
He ended up spending 26 hours in the Dekalb County Jail and was released only after paying the $1,231 fine for his unpaid traffic fines.
Otherwise, he would have had to wait until the following Wednesday to see the judge, who apparently only drops by once-a-week.
This crap is unconscionable and it happens all over the country. We need a nationwide policy: anybody detained has to be in front of a judge within, say, 12 hours, no exceptions for weekends, holidays, whatever. And then fund the court system adequately so it can provide something vaguely resembling due process.
I can press a button on my phone and someone will show up within two minutes to drive me anywhere, but the state needs a week to hold a hearing where someone's freedom is at stake?
I'll note that judges are willing to sign warrants for the police in the middle of the night, but they don't bother to show any hurry when someone is sitting in jail.
posted by zachlipton at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
He ended up spending 26 hours in the Dekalb County Jail and was released only after paying the $1,231 fine for his unpaid traffic fines.
Otherwise, he would have had to wait until the following Wednesday to see the judge, who apparently only drops by once-a-week.
This crap is unconscionable and it happens all over the country. We need a nationwide policy: anybody detained has to be in front of a judge within, say, 12 hours, no exceptions for weekends, holidays, whatever. And then fund the court system adequately so it can provide something vaguely resembling due process.
I can press a button on my phone and someone will show up within two minutes to drive me anywhere, but the state needs a week to hold a hearing where someone's freedom is at stake?
I'll note that judges are willing to sign warrants for the police in the middle of the night, but they don't bother to show any hurry when someone is sitting in jail.
posted by zachlipton at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2016 [28 favorites]
Things learned from the 7/11 press conference given by the Dallas Police chief:
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:30 AM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
- Dashcam and bodycam footage being downloaded, reviewed and time stamped. The goal is to assemble it all sequentially to have a complete timeline. He didn't explicitly say this assembled footage would be released to the public.
- 2015 was the 12th consecutive year of lower crime rates in Dallas. Other facts were given, but you get the idea: Dallas is seemingly doing very good police work, including a 45% reduction in 2015 in police involved shootings.
- On the verge of mandating counseling services for his officers, because cops are the last to ask for help. Currently getting advice from his staff on how to implement without making things worse.
- Dallas PD is having problems retaining offers, which the Chief says is due to the Dallas being the lowest paid offers in the area at 44K a year to start. He's working with the Mayor to correct that.
- Was a bit disparaging of protesters, admitting that wasn't his particular way and that he prefers to get involved and served. He mentioned that Dallas PD was hiring and encouraged protesters to help solve the problem in that way. Personally, it's the most unpleasant moment by the Chief. Everything else he was saying was very much agreeable, such as being a strong and committed beliver and practicer of community policing.
- Very disturbed about the amount of bomb making materials found in the shooters home. Even a Dallas bomb technician called the chief at home to express his concerns
- Thinks that a lot more work needs to be done by policy makers to fix various problems. The cops have too much on their plate.
- Is clearly frustrated with open carry laws, noting that they don't who the good guys are once a shooting starts and have to drag in everyone with a gun.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:30 AM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Oops, hit post too soon:
Probably be a few days before a timeline of what happened at standoff will be released. Things will slow down a bit as the police officers go to the all the funerals. He did admit that the department misspoke about it occurring in the garage, it was in the actual building, on the second floor. Said he'll try to get the exact details of where it occurred out later today (Monday the 11th)
The building took some damage from the explosion, the extent of which will be clarified later.
Two students did stay overnight in the building, because they were too scared too move. The police thought they had gotten everyone out, but missed them.
Sources leaked the name of the dead officers before the families ok'd the release. The Chief had made a person promise to the families that the names wouldn't be released until they ok'd it, but obviously that was gotten around by leaks.
Guidance for the bombmakers that placed it on the robot: "Don't bring the building down"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:46 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:46 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Guidance for the bombmakers that placed it on the robot: "Don't bring the building down"
I really want to believe that Dallas PD is a good department, but come on.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:49 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I really want to believe that Dallas PD is a good department, but come on.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:49 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Abdullah Muhlafi says the Baton Rouge officer who killed a man selling CDs immediately ordered him to be detained and then stole footage of the slaying.After taking away Muhlafi’s cellphone — and the damning video on it — Lt. Robert Cook and Officer Timothy Ballard locked the him in the back of a police car for the next four hours, the lawsuit claims. The only time Muhlafi was let out was when he had to use the restroom.
“The officers would not allow Mr. Muflahi to use the restroom inside of his business establishment and he was escorted to the side of his building and forced to relieve himself right there within arm distance of a BPRD officer and in full view of the public,” the lawsuit states.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:50 AM on July 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
“The officers would not allow Mr. Muflahi to use the restroom inside of his business establishment and he was escorted to the side of his building and forced to relieve himself right there within arm distance of a BPRD officer and in full view of the public,” the lawsuit states.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:50 AM on July 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
I really want to believe that Dallas PD is a good department, but come on.
Can you expand on that? I'm just not sure if your are criticizing the statement or the guidance.
posted by OmieWise at 11:59 AM on July 11, 2016
Can you expand on that? I'm just not sure if your are criticizing the statement or the guidance.
posted by OmieWise at 11:59 AM on July 11, 2016
I was criticizing the statement. Kill the suspect by bomb, but be extra careful about the building?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:01 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:01 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
That seems reasonable to me. They knew they were aiming to kill him (which is certainly a goal open to criticism), why demolish the building at the same time?
I guess I'm saying that once you've decided to kill the guy, the considerations change from that to how to do that. I'm personally agnostic about the killing, but I don't think the guidance to not damage the building shows any particular callousness.
posted by OmieWise at 12:05 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess I'm saying that once you've decided to kill the guy, the considerations change from that to how to do that. I'm personally agnostic about the killing, but I don't think the guidance to not damage the building shows any particular callousness.
posted by OmieWise at 12:05 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Reading between the lines, I'd say it means "kill the shooter, but use the minimal amount of C4 to do it, don't go overboard on this"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:06 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:06 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
"We're hiring."
One: ...
Two: Yeah, because a Black Lives Matter activist (1) is going to get hired to a major metropolitan police force, and (2) is going to be welcomed like a brother by the existing force.
(I almost phrased that as "the existing troops", unthinkingly.)
If we want things to improve, this will have to happen. If enough people do it, it's going to be about the NEW cops freezing out the OLD ones.
It's no different than racism, just don't be racist, the racists will have problems with that but that's THEIR problem to deal with and eventually they be forced into dealing with it by not being racist.
posted by VTX at 12:07 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
One: ...
Two: Yeah, because a Black Lives Matter activist (1) is going to get hired to a major metropolitan police force, and (2) is going to be welcomed like a brother by the existing force.
(I almost phrased that as "the existing troops", unthinkingly.)
If we want things to improve, this will have to happen. If enough people do it, it's going to be about the NEW cops freezing out the OLD ones.
It's no different than racism, just don't be racist, the racists will have problems with that but that's THEIR problem to deal with and eventually they be forced into dealing with it by not being racist.
posted by VTX at 12:07 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you don't see that statement as kinda gross and cavalier to make after the fact here I am not sure what I could say to persuade you. Don't drop the building is obvious without saying it, so the retelling of it sounds like chest-puffy tough-guy talk. The reading between the lines interpretation is pretty damned generous IMNSHO.
posted by phearlez at 12:09 PM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 12:09 PM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Another reasonable article from redstate.com:
One of the more disturbing things about both Ferguson (and, more recently, Baton Rouge) has been the reaction of the police departments in question, who have taken to the streets with shows of force that are borderline military level and frankly a bit absurd in their tactics. ...posted by clawsoon at 12:14 PM on July 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Perhaps not unexpectedly, Dallas has NOT erupted into a festering boil of racial unrest after this weekend. In fact, if anything, Dallas has come to embrace their police force even more fully than they had before. While many would have excused the Dallas PD for taking to the streets in riot gear and APCs in force, it is clear that their decision to de-escalate the situation (while still being cautious, as their lockdown on Saturday night illustrates) has worked and helped to cement the bonds between the community and the police force that are necessary to the maintenance of good order.
If you don't see that statement as kinda gross and cavalier to make after the fact here I am not sure what I could say to persuade you. Don't drop the building is obvious without saying it, so the retelling of it sounds like chest-puffy tough-guy talk. The reading between the lines interpretation is pretty damned generous IMNSHO.
That's how I read it as well.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:16 PM on July 11, 2016
That's how I read it as well.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:16 PM on July 11, 2016
Sure, I see it as cavalier, but not as gross. I'm not sure what I could do to convince you that the emotions here probably preclude the sort of perfect humanity many people in this thread seem to expect.
The guy shot and killed a bunch of cops. They blew the guy up on purpose. The gross part here isn't in disrespecting the guy by being cavalier about the orders given (after the decision was made) to blow him up.
posted by OmieWise at 12:21 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The guy shot and killed a bunch of cops. They blew the guy up on purpose. The gross part here isn't in disrespecting the guy by being cavalier about the orders given (after the decision was made) to blow him up.
posted by OmieWise at 12:21 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
. Don't drop the building is obvious without saying it, so the retelling of it sounds like chest-puffy tough-guy talk.
From my point of view it reads like an ex SWAT officer (which the police chief is) telling his SWAT officers to not go overboard, because he's aware of their capabilities. "Don't drop the building" was in response to being asked "how much should we use" (paraphrasing).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:24 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
From my point of view it reads like an ex SWAT officer (which the police chief is) telling his SWAT officers to not go overboard, because he's aware of their capabilities. "Don't drop the building" was in response to being asked "how much should we use" (paraphrasing).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:24 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Everyone is welcome to their own standards. Personally I don't like joshing about on the subject of killing, period. When it is killing done under delegated social authority I like it even less, no matter how odious the person being killed may have been.
posted by phearlez at 12:25 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 12:25 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
So, regarding recording for anyone interested, here's what I found in my setup/testing/choices.
I have long had an app on my iphone called ClearRecord which can be configured to automatically begin recording audio when opened. It works well and continues to record when the phone is locked. Recordings stay local on the phone until you manually push them up to Dropbox or share them in some other way, so if your phone is busted/stolen, recording gone. But I have found nothing better that I can quickly open, lock the phone, and hold it in my hand or drop it in my pocket when I am in any kind of questionable situation.
I have installed Fi-vo (recommended by someone at an above linked article) for video recording and tested it and it sorta works but not great. It starts recording video automatically when opened, which is nice, and when the recording is complete it immediately pushes it up to your linked Dropbox. If you are already holding the phone sideways when you open the app you can get horizontal video. If you open the app when it's vertical and it starts recording it keeps recording vertical. If you lock the phone, it stops recording. If you exit the app, it stops recording. Unfortunately, in both circumstances, it does not then immediately upload the video to Dropbox. While recording is stopped, it doesn't do it's post-processing and upload till you open the app again.
So from a standpoint of it being an app that you use in a situation where you might be stopped against your will, it's problematic. I personally don't want law enforcement to have my unlocked phone. And if the goal is to keep the recording from being destroyed, simply locking the phone before they snatch it - if you can - doesn't insure the video you recorded up to that moment gets preserved. They might throw it on the ground and destroy it, for example, and it's gone. Or they simply impound it, which would result in the upload never happening. You'd have to hit the stop button for recording and then quickly lock it if you want off-site preservation.
posted by phearlez at 12:25 PM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have long had an app on my iphone called ClearRecord which can be configured to automatically begin recording audio when opened. It works well and continues to record when the phone is locked. Recordings stay local on the phone until you manually push them up to Dropbox or share them in some other way, so if your phone is busted/stolen, recording gone. But I have found nothing better that I can quickly open, lock the phone, and hold it in my hand or drop it in my pocket when I am in any kind of questionable situation.
I have installed Fi-vo (recommended by someone at an above linked article) for video recording and tested it and it sorta works but not great. It starts recording video automatically when opened, which is nice, and when the recording is complete it immediately pushes it up to your linked Dropbox. If you are already holding the phone sideways when you open the app you can get horizontal video. If you open the app when it's vertical and it starts recording it keeps recording vertical. If you lock the phone, it stops recording. If you exit the app, it stops recording. Unfortunately, in both circumstances, it does not then immediately upload the video to Dropbox. While recording is stopped, it doesn't do it's post-processing and upload till you open the app again.
So from a standpoint of it being an app that you use in a situation where you might be stopped against your will, it's problematic. I personally don't want law enforcement to have my unlocked phone. And if the goal is to keep the recording from being destroyed, simply locking the phone before they snatch it - if you can - doesn't insure the video you recorded up to that moment gets preserved. They might throw it on the ground and destroy it, for example, and it's gone. Or they simply impound it, which would result in the upload never happening. You'd have to hit the stop button for recording and then quickly lock it if you want off-site preservation.
posted by phearlez at 12:25 PM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Houston Mayor says he will ask US Dept of Justice to review Saturday's officer-involved shooting of Alva Braziel.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's not pretty, but it's not uncommon for those dealing with death in some capacity to have a gallows sense of humor. YMMV.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Everyone is welcome to their own standards.
Absolutely. I'll err on the side of granting the Chief and Officers in Dallas some humanity in the face of this.
posted by OmieWise at 12:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Absolutely. I'll err on the side of granting the Chief and Officers in Dallas some humanity in the face of this.
posted by OmieWise at 12:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
"I want to be absolutely certain that the threat has been eliminated so we NEED to be 100% certain he is dead so use as much explosive as you want. The only thing I care about is that you don't bring the building down."
Everything about this is gross. People use sarcasm or a dismissive attitude to cope with the situation and the Dallas PD seems to have been acting in good faith to do their jobs. We weren't there, we didn't hear the tone in his voice when we said it so we really have no idea what his attitude was. I'm sure it's far from ideal but this seems to be one of the police departments that works the way we think it should so I think we're better served with more charitable interpretations of the chief's words.
I think the benefit of the doubt is something that a police department needs to earn but I think Dallas PD has earned it.
posted by VTX at 12:30 PM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Everything about this is gross. People use sarcasm or a dismissive attitude to cope with the situation and the Dallas PD seems to have been acting in good faith to do their jobs. We weren't there, we didn't hear the tone in his voice when we said it so we really have no idea what his attitude was. I'm sure it's far from ideal but this seems to be one of the police departments that works the way we think it should so I think we're better served with more charitable interpretations of the chief's words.
I think the benefit of the doubt is something that a police department needs to earn but I think Dallas PD has earned it.
posted by VTX at 12:30 PM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's not pretty, but it's not uncommon for those dealing with death in some capacity to have a gallows sense of humor.
My sense of humor is pretty dark and often not pretty, which is why I don't exhibit it in full bloom in professional situations. I would like it if people empowered to end the lives of my fellow citizens dialed their own dark humor back when appearing in their professional capacity.
I could personally give a fuck how he expressed this, cop to cop, in the heat of the moment. Rolling that out after the fact in an interview? I consider that a different thing.
posted by phearlez at 12:38 PM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
My sense of humor is pretty dark and often not pretty, which is why I don't exhibit it in full bloom in professional situations. I would like it if people empowered to end the lives of my fellow citizens dialed their own dark humor back when appearing in their professional capacity.
I could personally give a fuck how he expressed this, cop to cop, in the heat of the moment. Rolling that out after the fact in an interview? I consider that a different thing.
posted by phearlez at 12:38 PM on July 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Philando Castile was stopped 52 times in 14 years. More than half of the citations were dismissed.
This is so unthinkable to me. I've driven a lot in my life, in large cities, and small towns. For many years my job was practically driving and I'd spend several hours a day driving all over the Greater Houston metroplex. And I speed. I think I'm a good driver, and conscientious, but I break laws. When I was lost and looking for an address I would make illegal u-turns and similar. You know how many times I've been pulled over in my 20 years of driving as a white woman? ONCE. One time. I've been in the car when others (almost always male drivers) have gotten pulled over, so if you include those, maybe 5 times.
FIFTY-TWO? The fuck? I mean, maybe he was a terrible driver, ok, let's assume that. But HOW? It's so unreal to me that the police can be that blatantly biased and get away with it.
posted by threeturtles at 12:53 PM on July 11, 2016 [37 favorites]
This is so unthinkable to me. I've driven a lot in my life, in large cities, and small towns. For many years my job was practically driving and I'd spend several hours a day driving all over the Greater Houston metroplex. And I speed. I think I'm a good driver, and conscientious, but I break laws. When I was lost and looking for an address I would make illegal u-turns and similar. You know how many times I've been pulled over in my 20 years of driving as a white woman? ONCE. One time. I've been in the car when others (almost always male drivers) have gotten pulled over, so if you include those, maybe 5 times.
FIFTY-TWO? The fuck? I mean, maybe he was a terrible driver, ok, let's assume that. But HOW? It's so unreal to me that the police can be that blatantly biased and get away with it.
posted by threeturtles at 12:53 PM on July 11, 2016 [37 favorites]
It's not pretty, but it's not uncommon for those dealing with death in some capacity to have a gallows sense of humor.It's not pretty, but it's not uncommon for those dealing with death in some capacity to have a gallows sense of humor.
Paul Lewis, English professor and editorial board member for Humor: The International Journal of Humor Research, has written about gallows humor, and he discussed how the "relieving" element of it depends on context. That context is really how much skin you have in the game. If you are pretty distanced from the subject, it's not really gallows humor in the way Freud discussed it, as a mechanism for relief from horror.
Instead, extrapolating, it's what we sometimes call black or sick humor, and that's a different animal, based in pleasure we take in transgression. That's the sort of thing it is worth being careful with, because it is deliberately tasteless, and so is likely to get a bad reaction.
posted by maxsparber at 1:04 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Paul Lewis, English professor and editorial board member for Humor: The International Journal of Humor Research, has written about gallows humor, and he discussed how the "relieving" element of it depends on context. That context is really how much skin you have in the game. If you are pretty distanced from the subject, it's not really gallows humor in the way Freud discussed it, as a mechanism for relief from horror.
Instead, extrapolating, it's what we sometimes call black or sick humor, and that's a different animal, based in pleasure we take in transgression. That's the sort of thing it is worth being careful with, because it is deliberately tasteless, and so is likely to get a bad reaction.
posted by maxsparber at 1:04 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The International Journal of Humor Research
Sounds like a side-splitting read.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:07 PM on July 11, 2016
Sounds like a side-splitting read.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:07 PM on July 11, 2016
That's actually a newsletter I would subscribe to.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:08 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:08 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I heard about the 52 stops and was astonished. I would very much like someone with the know how to do an analysis of that depts racial stop to ticket ratio. I mean, y'all...I've been driving for 35 years. For 25 of them, I drove stupid fast, fire engine red sports cars. For a solid five to ten years, I was a street racer. In my entire life, I have never been stopped 52 times. (And in all the times I have been stopped, no cop has ever unfastened his safety catch on his weapon, even when I said I had a gun in the car. He just looked at it and said, "oh honey, that's not a gun", and then proceeded to ask me to pop the hood so we could talk about my engine. )
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:09 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:09 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am reading about a patent that would enable special infrared emitters to disable the recording functions of devices such as iPhones.
posted by prefpara at 1:16 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 1:16 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
If anyone else is seeing breathless coverage in their news feeds of a study by a Harvard economist making claims about a lack of disparity between killings of whites and blacks stopped by police (e.g. in this deleted FPP) then this Vox story is worth a look. In particular:
posted by tonycpsu at 1:26 PM on July 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
Ask yourself: Is the question the study answers the same one the public is asking?The problems with the study and how it's being reported don't stop there, but this is the critique that jumped out at me when I first saw this story gaining traction.
The most revealing passage in the Times article is probably the one explaining what Fryer and his team didn’t include in their study:It focused on what happens when police encounters occur, not how often they happen. Racial differences in how often police-civilian interactions occur reflect greater structural problems in society.In other words, Fryer and company found that there weren’t big racial disparities in how often black and white suspects who’d already been stopped by police were killed. But they deliberately avoided the question of whether black citizens are more likely to be stopped to begin with (they are) and whether they’re more likely to be stopped without cause (yup).
[...]
Maybe it’s possible (maybe) that those encounters would have been just as likely to escalate to the point of lethal force if each of those men had been white — but it kind of misses the point to say that, because if they’d been white, the encounters probably never would have happened.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:26 PM on July 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
Black Youth Project: It matters that people are afraid to travel in the US due to police violence
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:28 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, that should be enough to convince anybody with any degree of self awareness and any amassed experience of driving while white. I've been driving 26 years and have been pulled over four or five times total, with a single exception always for ample, ample cause--for speeding, mostly. I've been pulled over for no brakelights, too, a harrowing experience where the officer checked to make sure my hazards worked and told me to get it fixed quick before I got hurt and to have a nice day. The one exception was the time I got pulled over for walking. I was walking in the wrong neighborhood, see. It was 2 p.m. on a bright sunny day and there were toddlers playing in their front yards, but the cop insisted on following me in the squad car out of the neighborhood to ensure I wasn't murdered. "Ma'am, do you know what neighborhood you're in?" "OMG, what? Shut up, man! There's a tiny kid right over there waving at you, what the hell is wrong with you talking that way about his neighborhood right in front of him?" (Not what I said. I just said "...?" with my face. What the hell do you say? Sorry you were raised wrong? Sorry your awful job has turned you into a mean and crazy person?)
posted by Don Pepino at 1:31 PM on July 11, 2016
posted by Don Pepino at 1:31 PM on July 11, 2016
a patent that would enable special infrared emitters to disable the recording functions of devices such as iPhones
Apple, like many companies, files patents on the Anyways Principle; not all of them are used. Given Apple's privacy stance, I'm inclined to interpret that patent as a way to stop other phone makers from using that method to disable recording. I would be astonished if Apple deployed it on the iPhone.
yes, I know Apple has crawled up DRM's ass before
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:33 PM on July 11, 2016
Apple, like many companies, files patents on the Anyways Principle; not all of them are used. Given Apple's privacy stance, I'm inclined to interpret that patent as a way to stop other phone makers from using that method to disable recording. I would be astonished if Apple deployed it on the iPhone.
yes, I know Apple has crawled up DRM's ass before
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:33 PM on July 11, 2016
I've been doing a little reading about the LRAD device that was used against protestors in Baton Rouge (warning: very loud, ear-piercing siren). They were designed for communication, but have been repurposed by police as a form of non-lethal crowd control – they are loud enough to cause physical pain.
If you attend a major protest, it might be a good idea to bring some earplugs – preferably the kind which merely attenuate sound, rather than blocking it out entirely, so you can still hear. Maybe even bring a bag of them to pass out to others.
Honestly, I'm mentally assembling a protest bag: transparent vinyl backpack, battery pack for my phone, earplugs, maybe a wearable camera like this, a list of phone numbers for legal assistance, Campden tablets for neutralizing tear gas... Sadly, I anticipate that there will be enough opportunities to use it to justify the investment.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:36 PM on July 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
If you attend a major protest, it might be a good idea to bring some earplugs – preferably the kind which merely attenuate sound, rather than blocking it out entirely, so you can still hear. Maybe even bring a bag of them to pass out to others.
Honestly, I'm mentally assembling a protest bag: transparent vinyl backpack, battery pack for my phone, earplugs, maybe a wearable camera like this, a list of phone numbers for legal assistance, Campden tablets for neutralizing tear gas... Sadly, I anticipate that there will be enough opportunities to use it to justify the investment.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:36 PM on July 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
What would it cost to assemble and sell such a kit I wonder? Not the camera or battery pack but stuff like the transparent (you can easily tell I'm not hiding a weapon) backpack, ear-plugs, campden tablets, a list of phone numbers/resources, and maybe some standard advice on how to stay safe, what your rights are, what to expect, etc.
Some of that is stuff I wouldn't have thought of and I didn't even know those tablets existed.
posted by VTX at 1:41 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Some of that is stuff I wouldn't have thought of and I didn't even know those tablets existed.
posted by VTX at 1:41 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
In other words, Fryer and company found that there weren’t big racial disparities in how often black and white suspects who’d already been stopped by police were killed. But they deliberately avoided the question of whether black citizens are more likely to be stopped to begin with (they are) and whether they’re more likely to be stopped without cause (yup).
And because they avoided that second question, they don't address a pretty big plausible explanation for why they couldn't find a disparity in how often black and white suspects who'd already been stopped by police were killed (such as one might expect):
If you're only stopping white people who are actually exhibiting criminal behavior (and who are more likely to have guns), you're perhaps more likely to encounter aggressive or violent resistance to being arrested (and "provoking" lethal force) than when you stop to hassle any random black person just for being black.
posted by AceRock at 1:42 PM on July 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
And because they avoided that second question, they don't address a pretty big plausible explanation for why they couldn't find a disparity in how often black and white suspects who'd already been stopped by police were killed (such as one might expect):
If you're only stopping white people who are actually exhibiting criminal behavior (and who are more likely to have guns), you're perhaps more likely to encounter aggressive or violent resistance to being arrested (and "provoking" lethal force) than when you stop to hassle any random black person just for being black.
posted by AceRock at 1:42 PM on July 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
maybe a wearable camera like this
Maybe that has some UI aspect of it that is worth it, but if you want a camera to wear to a protest, particularly if you think it might get ugly, I personally would go cheap enough I could afford to lose it (or have it illegally impounded).
Here are two that look like typical cop body cams and are under $20. I think you'll need a micro SD card for them to work at all but they might have small built-in storage for testing.
Here's one that is more hidden-style, which depending on your state could be used to justify calling it a wiretap violation.
Most of these are going to suck in the dark no matter how expensive they are.
posted by phearlez at 1:47 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe that has some UI aspect of it that is worth it, but if you want a camera to wear to a protest, particularly if you think it might get ugly, I personally would go cheap enough I could afford to lose it (or have it illegally impounded).
Here are two that look like typical cop body cams and are under $20. I think you'll need a micro SD card for them to work at all but they might have small built-in storage for testing.
Here's one that is more hidden-style, which depending on your state could be used to justify calling it a wiretap violation.
Most of these are going to suck in the dark no matter how expensive they are.
posted by phearlez at 1:47 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
transparent vinyl backpack
with all those items i'd be worried that cops or some other numbnut would think that you were a suicide bomber :/
posted by futz at 1:47 PM on July 11, 2016
with all those items i'd be worried that cops or some other numbnut would think that you were a suicide bomber :/
posted by futz at 1:47 PM on July 11, 2016
I've heard of a few home remedies for tear gas – antacids (e.g., Maalox) are often recommended. I've also heard that some of them are inadvisable for one reason or another. I haven't had occasion to try any of them (thankfully), so I don't know the facts.
A kit is a good idea, but many people will already have some of the components (e.g., phone chargers – which aren't completely universal anyway), and others might not need/want specific items. Maybe it'd be helpful just to assemble a checklist, with links to decent product options on Amazon. I'm far from a career protester, though.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:51 PM on July 11, 2016
A kit is a good idea, but many people will already have some of the components (e.g., phone chargers – which aren't completely universal anyway), and others might not need/want specific items. Maybe it'd be helpful just to assemble a checklist, with links to decent product options on Amazon. I'm far from a career protester, though.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:51 PM on July 11, 2016
Campden tablets for neutralizing tear gas.
Wouldn't help with your nasal passages, but what about swim goggles for keeping it off your eyes?
posted by phearlez at 1:52 PM on July 11, 2016
Wouldn't help with your nasal passages, but what about swim goggles for keeping it off your eyes?
posted by phearlez at 1:52 PM on July 11, 2016
My thinking is that an organization like Black Lives Matter, could just buy a bunch of complete kits and have them on-site (and maybe it's a mix of full kits and parts so people can fill in gaps if they have them).
That also let's gives people who can't participate, for whatever reason, a way to contribute and feel like they're helping on the ground. Either by buying kits directly for people or by donating to organizations that distribute them "a donation of X dollars will buy Y protester kits".
posted by VTX at 1:57 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
That also let's gives people who can't participate, for whatever reason, a way to contribute and feel like they're helping on the ground. Either by buying kits directly for people or by donating to organizations that distribute them "a donation of X dollars will buy Y protester kits".
posted by VTX at 1:57 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've been doing a little reading about the LRAD device
I have the dubious honor of being among the first American civilians to experience the LRAD in its full splendor, in Pittsburgh during the 2009 G20 summit. It's no joke. When they crank it up and point it at you, it's like there's a loudspeaker inside your skull cranked up to deathmetal 11 yelling "DISPERSE! DISPERSE! THIS IS AN ILLEGAL GATHERING!" and so on. If you ever want to feel like the dystopia is here, be on the wrong side of the full military capabilities unleashed for crowd control during the G20 or G8 or the like. Helicopters, storm troops, bizarre sound cannons, strange devices, smoke everywhere. I hate that this is all in the hands of normal police now, and not just those charged with making sure Angela Merkel never has to hear a protest chant when she's chilling with the President in pgh.
posted by dis_integration at 2:07 PM on July 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
I have the dubious honor of being among the first American civilians to experience the LRAD in its full splendor, in Pittsburgh during the 2009 G20 summit. It's no joke. When they crank it up and point it at you, it's like there's a loudspeaker inside your skull cranked up to deathmetal 11 yelling "DISPERSE! DISPERSE! THIS IS AN ILLEGAL GATHERING!" and so on. If you ever want to feel like the dystopia is here, be on the wrong side of the full military capabilities unleashed for crowd control during the G20 or G8 or the like. Helicopters, storm troops, bizarre sound cannons, strange devices, smoke everywhere. I hate that this is all in the hands of normal police now, and not just those charged with making sure Angela Merkel never has to hear a protest chant when she's chilling with the President in pgh.
posted by dis_integration at 2:07 PM on July 11, 2016 [21 favorites]
Other possible components for a demo bag:
– a clear Nalgene bottle for water (can be mixed with the Campden tablets if needed)
– a prepaid phone on a different network than your regular phone (in case your regular network is overloaded or disabled – I don't know if this would actually help?)
– small first aid kit
– concise literature: what to do in various situations, police tactics you may encounter, etc.
I'm sure that more experienced demonstrators would know what's actually useful or advisable here. I've helped to raise a number of ruckuses over the years, but I've never been in a tear-gas-and-personnel-carriers type situation.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:08 PM on July 11, 2016
– a clear Nalgene bottle for water (can be mixed with the Campden tablets if needed)
– a prepaid phone on a different network than your regular phone (in case your regular network is overloaded or disabled – I don't know if this would actually help?)
– small first aid kit
– concise literature: what to do in various situations, police tactics you may encounter, etc.
I'm sure that more experienced demonstrators would know what's actually useful or advisable here. I've helped to raise a number of ruckuses over the years, but I've never been in a tear-gas-and-personnel-carriers type situation.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:08 PM on July 11, 2016
#SayHerName: why Kimberlé Crenshaw is fighting for forgotten women:
When she speaks at public meetings, Professor Kimberlé Crenshaw has a trick. She asks everyone to stand up until they hear an unfamiliar name. She then reads the names of unarmed black men and boys whose deaths ignited the Black Lives Matter movement; names such as Eric Garner, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Freddie Gray, Trayvon Martin. Her audience are informed and interested in civil rights so “virtually no one will sit down”, Crenshaw says approvingly. “Then I say the names of Natasha McKenna, Tanisha Anderson, Michelle Cusseaux, Aura Rosser, Maya Hall. By the time I get to the third name, almost everyone has sat down. By the fifth, the only people standing are those working on our campaign.”posted by prefpara at 2:11 PM on July 11, 2016 [46 favorites]
The campaign, #SayHerName, was created to raise awareness about the number of women and girls that are killed by law enforcement officers. For Crenshaw – who coined the term “intersectionality” in the 1980s to describe the way different forms of discrimination overlap and compound each other – it is a brutal illustration of how racism and sexism play out on black women’s bodies.
And I think I, as someone who hasn't ever participated in a protest, would feel a lot of mental reassurance in having a prepared kit that a bunch of protest experts/veterans have determined has all the basic stuff I'm likely to need or need to know. I wouldn't have to worry about whether I forgot something or if there was something I should have read beforehand to prepare, if it's not in that kit, it's probably not something I need.
posted by VTX at 2:15 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by VTX at 2:15 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
Another economist (Rajiv Sethi at Columbia) with some important comments on that study:
posted by AceRock at 2:33 PM on July 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Another economist (Rajiv Sethi at Columbia) with some important comments on that study:
There are large differences across groups in behavior: two-thirds of whites and one-half of blacks attacked, a difference that is statistically significant (the reported p-value is 0.006).It is also at the heart of the Black Lives Matter movement and protests. It is not just a plea to stop taking black lives through lethal force, it is a demand to treat black lives and black people with the dignity and humanity that every person deserves.
What this means is that the pool of black arrestees and the pool of white arrestees are systematically different, at least as far as behavior is concerned. So the raw data comparison described at startling in the quote above is not really valid... Still, Fryer controls for these differences in behavioral and contextual characteristics and finds that the basic picture doesn't change. This has to be taken seriously. The key question, to my mind, is whether these controls are adequate.
...
Finally, consider Fryer's analysis of non-lethal force, which is consistent with earlier findings. Aside from being fundamentally unjust, disparities in the use of non-lethal force have some really important implications for crime rates. The harassment of entire groups based on racial or ethnic identity is a major obstacle to witness cooperation in serious cases, including homicide. In fact, given the importance of corroboration, a belief that other witnesses will not step forward can be self-fulfilling.
With witnesses routinely unwilling to come forward in some neighborhoods, people can be killed with near impunity. And this significantly increases the incentives to kill preemptively, in a climate of reciprocal fear. Low clearance rates for homicide are directly responsible for high rates of killing, and both of these are held in place by distrust of the criminal justice system by potential witnesses.
The excessive and discriminatory use of non-lethal force by police thus ends up having indirect lethal effects.
posted by AceRock at 2:33 PM on July 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Swim goggles are small, easy to carry, and will help with teargas getting in your eyes. A bandana soaked in water tied around nose and mouth will help filter most police grenades. If exposed, milk is the best way to neutralize, Campden tablet dissolved in a bottle of water will help, but gettingto a shower asap is imperative. The gas will stick to clothes and skin. Police grenades of tear gas contain chemicals that are fat soluble, so most topical creams and whatnot will just smear the chemical around to new places. The gas hangs out low to the ground, so dropping may not help, but climbing might.
In the 60s, when my parents were doing a lot of protests, someone in their cohort always carried a big ol soup pot. They'd bang on it as percussion, but when tear gas came out, they would plop that pot right on top of it, to contain the smoke long enough for folks to escape. Or so the story is told. How 2016 grenades are different than 1969 grenades, I do not know.
That said, I've had to stop going to protests, because I cannot take the chance that a cop will demand physical action which I cannot do, like kneel,or move quickly. What astonishes me is that my parents protested police violence, I've protested police violence, and now my son is almost old enough to take on the banner, and yet...Police violence just keeps getting worse. They're outfitted like they are going to war, with sonic weapons and tanks and grenades and murderbots.
50 some odd years, 've been watching the struggle between citizens and the forces nominally charged with protecting them, and it's just getting worse. And I just don't know what we can do make it better. Magically make all the guns go away. Mandatory Play Nice rules. I just feel so hopeless about how to effect change. I've been protesting since I was in a stroller, and violence is still the state's response.
I wept like a baby when that young woman, facing down the line of shield-faced, baton wielding, army in black, cried out "I can't back down, where am I supposed to back down to?" How can we still be here?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:44 PM on July 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
In the 60s, when my parents were doing a lot of protests, someone in their cohort always carried a big ol soup pot. They'd bang on it as percussion, but when tear gas came out, they would plop that pot right on top of it, to contain the smoke long enough for folks to escape. Or so the story is told. How 2016 grenades are different than 1969 grenades, I do not know.
That said, I've had to stop going to protests, because I cannot take the chance that a cop will demand physical action which I cannot do, like kneel,or move quickly. What astonishes me is that my parents protested police violence, I've protested police violence, and now my son is almost old enough to take on the banner, and yet...Police violence just keeps getting worse. They're outfitted like they are going to war, with sonic weapons and tanks and grenades and murderbots.
50 some odd years, 've been watching the struggle between citizens and the forces nominally charged with protecting them, and it's just getting worse. And I just don't know what we can do make it better. Magically make all the guns go away. Mandatory Play Nice rules. I just feel so hopeless about how to effect change. I've been protesting since I was in a stroller, and violence is still the state's response.
I wept like a baby when that young woman, facing down the line of shield-faced, baton wielding, army in black, cried out "I can't back down, where am I supposed to back down to?" How can we still be here?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:44 PM on July 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
a prepaid phone on a different network than your regular phone (in case your regular network is overloaded or disabled – I don't know if this would actually help?)
If you're ever in a place where you can't make a cell call because of the crowd, use text messaging (SMS). The cell tower will store and forward that if overwhelmed. It'll take longer than usual, but it should go through.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:57 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you're ever in a place where you can't make a cell call because of the crowd, use text messaging (SMS). The cell tower will store and forward that if overwhelmed. It'll take longer than usual, but it should go through.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:57 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
A couple of other tips for those new to protesting and/or those going into a potentially dangerous protest area:
1. Let someone else know that you're going. Even if it's just via Twitter or FB or something.
2. If it's possible, buddy up with someone.
3. If you carry medication on you, make sure it's in the prescription bottle that has your info on it - otherwise, the police can arrest you for carrying unmarked prescriptions. (I don't know how this'd work with an Epi-Pen and/or an inhaler, both of which are hard to put prescription info on). Maybe have a doctor's letter on you, saying that these are prescribed medications and carry that with you?
4. If you have any chronic/serious medical issues, a Medic Alert bracelet/necklace is always a good idea.
5. If a legal and/or support number is being distributed, write it on your arm with a pen or a Sharpie.
6. If things get too hairy, don't feel bad about leaving. At a recent protest, my friend and I decided that we had done our part, and it felt like it was going to get really hairy, really soon. Sure enough, 10 minutes after we left, the protesters who remained tried to get onto a local highway, and the Seattle Police deployed flashbang grenades against them. Into a crowd. With children present.
posted by spinifex23 at 3:49 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
1. Let someone else know that you're going. Even if it's just via Twitter or FB or something.
2. If it's possible, buddy up with someone.
3. If you carry medication on you, make sure it's in the prescription bottle that has your info on it - otherwise, the police can arrest you for carrying unmarked prescriptions. (I don't know how this'd work with an Epi-Pen and/or an inhaler, both of which are hard to put prescription info on). Maybe have a doctor's letter on you, saying that these are prescribed medications and carry that with you?
4. If you have any chronic/serious medical issues, a Medic Alert bracelet/necklace is always a good idea.
5. If a legal and/or support number is being distributed, write it on your arm with a pen or a Sharpie.
6. If things get too hairy, don't feel bad about leaving. At a recent protest, my friend and I decided that we had done our part, and it felt like it was going to get really hairy, really soon. Sure enough, 10 minutes after we left, the protesters who remained tried to get onto a local highway, and the Seattle Police deployed flashbang grenades against them. Into a crowd. With children present.
posted by spinifex23 at 3:49 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's like 7 years after I posted this, which happened something like eight years prior. A march I was in to protest the killing of a black man who was in his own vehicle with his own gun, minding his own business, shot to death in front of his son, by a police officer. That march went onto a major highway, stopping traffic in the afternoon to evening.
Now all these years later there are protests seemingly every day or every other day where crowds of people are doing the same. It's happening in Chicago right now. It's incredible to me.
Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville
Junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if Dick finally gets down with
Jane on Search for Tomorrow because Black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
The revolution will not be televised.
...
The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
The revolution will be no re-run brothers;
The revolution will be live.
posted by cashman at 4:39 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Now all these years later there are protests seemingly every day or every other day where crowds of people are doing the same. It's happening in Chicago right now. It's incredible to me.
Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville
Junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if Dick finally gets down with
Jane on Search for Tomorrow because Black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
The revolution will not be televised.
...
The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
The revolution will be no re-run brothers;
The revolution will be live.
posted by cashman at 4:39 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I-94 Protesters to be Charged with 3rd-Degree Riot
The charge is a gross misdemeanor.
According to the attorney’s office, 46 adults were arrested by the Minnesota State Patrol after they stormed the interstate Saturday evening to protest the death of Philando Castile, who was shot by a St. Anthony police officer Wednesday night.
The attorney’s office decided there was enough evidence to charge each suspect after reviewing police reports, photos and video from the protest. Bail has been set at $1,500.
posted by futz at 4:47 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The charge is a gross misdemeanor.
According to the attorney’s office, 46 adults were arrested by the Minnesota State Patrol after they stormed the interstate Saturday evening to protest the death of Philando Castile, who was shot by a St. Anthony police officer Wednesday night.
The attorney’s office decided there was enough evidence to charge each suspect after reviewing police reports, photos and video from the protest. Bail has been set at $1,500.
posted by futz at 4:47 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory today signed into law HB 972, which allows law enforcement agencies to keep officer worn body camera footage from the public unless ordered to release the footage by a court.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:49 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:49 PM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Onion usually operates at its best in moments of genuine national crisis, and it looks like this is no exception:
Police Chief Says There Just A Few Bad, Deeply Ingrained Prejudices Giving All Cops A Bad Name
And its Internetty sibling Clickhole chips in with:
Devastating: This Guy Knows Exactly How Black People Should Act Around Police Officers, But He Has No Black Friends To Tell About It
BLOG: If Black Lives Matter Isn’t A Racist Hate Group, Then Can Someone Please Explain To Me Why I Keep Insisting They Are?
posted by rorgy at 4:54 PM on July 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
Police Chief Says There Just A Few Bad, Deeply Ingrained Prejudices Giving All Cops A Bad Name
And its Internetty sibling Clickhole chips in with:
Devastating: This Guy Knows Exactly How Black People Should Act Around Police Officers, But He Has No Black Friends To Tell About It
BLOG: If Black Lives Matter Isn’t A Racist Hate Group, Then Can Someone Please Explain To Me Why I Keep Insisting They Are?
posted by rorgy at 4:54 PM on July 11, 2016 [32 favorites]
Think about what you'll lose when the Blaxit happens.
posted by TwoStride at 5:08 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 5:08 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I guess when shooting black people to death for selling CDs or having a busted tail-light has become standard procedure for cops, they gotta up the ante when a black person is doing something really dangerous and blow him up with a bomb robot.
posted by Cookiebastard at 5:13 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 5:13 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
In re protests: the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of protests I've been to in MPLS and Chicago have been totally low-key with no arrests or significant interaction with police. If you have never been to a protest before, know that the vast, vast majority of the time, protests (even against police brutality) are peaceful and safe. Obviously, nothing is 100% guaranteed and if you have a serious health or social concern, it is legit to feel like you want to engage in other ways, but events like the Saturday protest here are historic, not typical.
How can you tell in advance? Pay attention to who has called the protest and where it will be. Religious groups, immigrants' rights groups, anything family-oriented, any group in your area with a reform/pacifist reputation - protests they call are almost certainly planned to be legal, low-key and safe, and planned so that children, parents of the children and people with mobility issues can participate. Protests in busy areas in daylight that are called by pacifist groups are likely to be low-key. Union marches, also usually low key. Protests organized by community policy people are likely to be low key.
Take note of how the protest is framed in the call - very often organizers will make it clear that a protest is low key because they want to signal to, for example, undocumented people, people with mobility issues, etc that they can definitely participate without making special plans. (Not to say that undocumented people and disabled people can't take part in more militant actions - but many people prefer to be able to plan for this in advance.)
Again, I have been to a gazillion protests over the years, and they usually go like this: people mill around and chat and get signs out until about ten or fifteen minutes after the start time. There are some speeches or maybe something artistic or personal testimony. There's some chanting. Then people march around - sometimes up and down the sidewalk, sometimes along the street, sometimes in the street. If the protest goes in the street, you personally have the option of staying on the sidewalk. Here in MPLS, in recent years, the PD and the mayor have obviously made the decision to let protests take over the streets and even the highways in the short term. (Note that the Saturday night arrests were St Paul and county arrests.)
If it is going to be a long march (not that kind of long march, thank goodness) the organizers will probably announce it - "we're going to march to the Capitol", etc. This will give you a chance to decide if you want to march all the way (and have to find your way back). Shorter marches are more likely to loop around - through downtown, for instance. It is always okay to leave.
Here in MPLS (and, I think, in general) large, peaceful marches tend not to run into problems with cops. For instance, there was a massive march after Philandro Castile's death and it was absolutely safe and non-confrontational.
Another thing: of the gazillion protests I've been to, some have been pretty militant/confrontational/beat-down-y, but as a broad generality, if you keep your eyes open and your wits about you, you can avoid being arrested or beaten as long as you are okay with leaving early. This means not standing in solidarity with all the other marchers through to the end, and that can be a thing where you'll feel bad. Make your decisions based on personal tolerance of risk, arrest and legal involvement is all I'm saying.
Even on Saturday night, almost everyone got off the highway, and I think probably everyone could have if circumstances had been slightly different and if BLM had wanted to prioritize that rather than prioritizing media coverage and civil disobedience. I think they made a good choice and I support how they handled it 100%, though.
Protests are really, really weird. I cannot emphasize this enough, how weird they are, how weird it feels. It puts you in a completely different and strange relationship to the landscape of the city.
posted by Frowner at 5:14 PM on July 11, 2016 [31 favorites]
How can you tell in advance? Pay attention to who has called the protest and where it will be. Religious groups, immigrants' rights groups, anything family-oriented, any group in your area with a reform/pacifist reputation - protests they call are almost certainly planned to be legal, low-key and safe, and planned so that children, parents of the children and people with mobility issues can participate. Protests in busy areas in daylight that are called by pacifist groups are likely to be low-key. Union marches, also usually low key. Protests organized by community policy people are likely to be low key.
Take note of how the protest is framed in the call - very often organizers will make it clear that a protest is low key because they want to signal to, for example, undocumented people, people with mobility issues, etc that they can definitely participate without making special plans. (Not to say that undocumented people and disabled people can't take part in more militant actions - but many people prefer to be able to plan for this in advance.)
Again, I have been to a gazillion protests over the years, and they usually go like this: people mill around and chat and get signs out until about ten or fifteen minutes after the start time. There are some speeches or maybe something artistic or personal testimony. There's some chanting. Then people march around - sometimes up and down the sidewalk, sometimes along the street, sometimes in the street. If the protest goes in the street, you personally have the option of staying on the sidewalk. Here in MPLS, in recent years, the PD and the mayor have obviously made the decision to let protests take over the streets and even the highways in the short term. (Note that the Saturday night arrests were St Paul and county arrests.)
If it is going to be a long march (not that kind of long march, thank goodness) the organizers will probably announce it - "we're going to march to the Capitol", etc. This will give you a chance to decide if you want to march all the way (and have to find your way back). Shorter marches are more likely to loop around - through downtown, for instance. It is always okay to leave.
Here in MPLS (and, I think, in general) large, peaceful marches tend not to run into problems with cops. For instance, there was a massive march after Philandro Castile's death and it was absolutely safe and non-confrontational.
Another thing: of the gazillion protests I've been to, some have been pretty militant/confrontational/beat-down-y, but as a broad generality, if you keep your eyes open and your wits about you, you can avoid being arrested or beaten as long as you are okay with leaving early. This means not standing in solidarity with all the other marchers through to the end, and that can be a thing where you'll feel bad. Make your decisions based on personal tolerance of risk, arrest and legal involvement is all I'm saying.
Even on Saturday night, almost everyone got off the highway, and I think probably everyone could have if circumstances had been slightly different and if BLM had wanted to prioritize that rather than prioritizing media coverage and civil disobedience. I think they made a good choice and I support how they handled it 100%, though.
Protests are really, really weird. I cannot emphasize this enough, how weird they are, how weird it feels. It puts you in a completely different and strange relationship to the landscape of the city.
posted by Frowner at 5:14 PM on July 11, 2016 [31 favorites]
Thanks for the details, Frowner.
I haven't done a whole many protests, myself, but I do know a lot of people who planned and participated in both conventional protests and direct actions (the locking down on private property kind, at least, shutting down freeways is a newer tactic that I don't know if the people I know are involved with). Anyway, there's a huge amount of forethought and planning, and generally the organisers will know when they're about to do something that could trigger arrests, and they're good about warning people in advance when that's the case.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:36 PM on July 11, 2016
I haven't done a whole many protests, myself, but I do know a lot of people who planned and participated in both conventional protests and direct actions (the locking down on private property kind, at least, shutting down freeways is a newer tactic that I don't know if the people I know are involved with). Anyway, there's a huge amount of forethought and planning, and generally the organisers will know when they're about to do something that could trigger arrests, and they're good about warning people in advance when that's the case.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:36 PM on July 11, 2016
Basically, what I want to convey is that if you feel strongly and would like to attend a march, vigil, rally, etc, you should go (absent some strong reason, of course). Use your judgment both in choosing what to attend and while you are there. Go with a friend if possible, but if it's a very peaceful "let's picket the corporate headquarters at lunch hour" thing, you'll be just fine on your own.
Remember that because we live in a horrible society, many very legit protests don't get much media coverage. You don't see very much media that is like "Five hundred pro-immigration lawyers and policy wonks marched to city hall to deliver a petition" or "a thousand youth staged an anti-war march through the shopping district" because mass media does not want to tell those stories.
posted by Frowner at 5:39 PM on July 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
Remember that because we live in a horrible society, many very legit protests don't get much media coverage. You don't see very much media that is like "Five hundred pro-immigration lawyers and policy wonks marched to city hall to deliver a petition" or "a thousand youth staged an anti-war march through the shopping district" because mass media does not want to tell those stories.
posted by Frowner at 5:39 PM on July 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
Frowner, thanks for the Protesting 101 knowledge.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:00 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:00 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Claire Laville Why “implicit bias” training is not the solution to police violence
What do we gain by calling racism unconscious?posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:01 PM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
The test’s advantage over traditional sensitivity training seems clear. Since officers are forced to make snap judgments in the field, it’s not enough for them to consciously disavow racial prejudice. That premise, however, rests on several unquestioned assumptions about the way policing works.
The more we convince ourselves that snap judgments are what matter most, the more our institutions reflect that assumption.6) Many police cadets receive a mere eight hours of de-escalation training. A small minority of cops receive any training in mental health crisis intervention, even though a high number of shooting victims have a mental illness or an intellectual disability.
Yeah, unless you're attending a very large protest in a major city, or a protest organized by a group known for militant posture or tactics, the risk of anything bad happening to you at a demonstration is negligible. I attended a march of about 150 people in my suburban town last weekend, and it was fine – we made ourselves and our message visible in the community, got acquainted with some like-minded people, and had a bit of catharsis after a very difficult few days. There were little kids, older folks, everybody. The organizers did inform the police beforehand, but did not seek or receive a permit. (It was in a public park / walking mall, so we weren't obstructing traffic.) Most police forces, believe it or not, behave professionally, and perform their duty to protect your right to peaceably assemble. We actually ran over our stated end time by about an hour – people were passing around a megaphone and just talking about what was on their minds, and a lot of people had a lot of things on their minds. The police kept a respectable distance and didn't interfere.
Do try to leave with a partner. The organizer of this event had to set the Facebook event to require admin approval of all posts, because it was being inundated with hate speech and threats.
The biggest protest I've attended was a march in DC during the buildup to the Iraq war. There were walls of police in riot gear blocking roads at intersections, in order to funnel the march down the approved path – but that was the scariest thing I saw. No tear gas, no one being tackled by cops, no advances by the police.
Search your local Facebook events for "Black Lives Matter" or "police brutality" – there's probably someone organizing something in your area, and they'd love to see you there.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:36 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Do try to leave with a partner. The organizer of this event had to set the Facebook event to require admin approval of all posts, because it was being inundated with hate speech and threats.
The biggest protest I've attended was a march in DC during the buildup to the Iraq war. There were walls of police in riot gear blocking roads at intersections, in order to funnel the march down the approved path – but that was the scariest thing I saw. No tear gas, no one being tackled by cops, no advances by the police.
Search your local Facebook events for "Black Lives Matter" or "police brutality" – there's probably someone organizing something in your area, and they'd love to see you there.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:36 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
If anyone feels like helping MPLS out, you can donate to the bail fund here. Apparently, everyone from the highway has a more serious charge and a $1500 bail, and while most people are out, they literally don't have enough money to get everyone out.
Which seems, in a way, more wrong than the actual police interactions, because it seems more gratuitous. Macing people on the highway - well, that was an actual conflict. The protesters were saying "we're going to shut down this highway" and the cops were saying "no you're not". It's not that I approve of macing people, but it makes a kind of sense. Whereas everybody involved knows that the bail is pure, punitive bullshit. Someone might believe that they need to mace people to get them off the road - however wrong they would be and however stupid their first premises, it's at least something one could sincerely believe. No one really believes that a $1500 bail is necessary.
That said, honestly, there's a huge difference in how MPLS and St Paul have handled this stuff. The highway was blocked for four hours, there was a huge cost incurred in police presence and material, there will be cases tying up the courts for months - but if they'd let everyone march, they would have been off the highway inside two hours (because no one was going to march longer/farther than that) with no cost except the cost of detouring traffic. I have been on two highway marches in MPLS, one in solidarity with Ferguson and one, aw jeez, I can't even remember which terrible death the march was for. And people marched from South to downtown, and then around downtown. The highway was closed for a while, but not that long. No one was arrested. There weren't even very many cops.
It's a funny thing - the quickest way to deal with a mass march is to let people march. The decision to beat and gas a large group is always more time-consuming and more expensive than just letting them go.
That's not to say that MPLS hasn't beaten people at small marches in the past couple of years - sure they have. But not nearly as much and not nearly as brutal.
posted by Frowner at 8:08 PM on July 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
Which seems, in a way, more wrong than the actual police interactions, because it seems more gratuitous. Macing people on the highway - well, that was an actual conflict. The protesters were saying "we're going to shut down this highway" and the cops were saying "no you're not". It's not that I approve of macing people, but it makes a kind of sense. Whereas everybody involved knows that the bail is pure, punitive bullshit. Someone might believe that they need to mace people to get them off the road - however wrong they would be and however stupid their first premises, it's at least something one could sincerely believe. No one really believes that a $1500 bail is necessary.
That said, honestly, there's a huge difference in how MPLS and St Paul have handled this stuff. The highway was blocked for four hours, there was a huge cost incurred in police presence and material, there will be cases tying up the courts for months - but if they'd let everyone march, they would have been off the highway inside two hours (because no one was going to march longer/farther than that) with no cost except the cost of detouring traffic. I have been on two highway marches in MPLS, one in solidarity with Ferguson and one, aw jeez, I can't even remember which terrible death the march was for. And people marched from South to downtown, and then around downtown. The highway was closed for a while, but not that long. No one was arrested. There weren't even very many cops.
It's a funny thing - the quickest way to deal with a mass march is to let people march. The decision to beat and gas a large group is always more time-consuming and more expensive than just letting them go.
That's not to say that MPLS hasn't beaten people at small marches in the past couple of years - sure they have. But not nearly as much and not nearly as brutal.
posted by Frowner at 8:08 PM on July 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I've been to a bunch of protests since I was a teenager in the 90s (and I grew up outside DC, so always something going on). The most recent one i went to was for Trayvon Martin in NYC and the worst thing that happened was I couldn't march the whole way because I came from work and was wearing heels. I have a friend in DC who takes his six month old baby to all labor protests.
That's not to say that there isn't a problem with police and their terrible tactics at these things. But the idea that people need kits to go to protests still feels wrong and makes me queasy.
Protests are our right as Americans. Some people get arrested at them because of violating these small pointless infractions like stopping in a roadway - I support their right to do that too, because those infractions are pointless - but the truth is most people won't get caught up in that.
I hope people aren't afraid to go out and exercise their right to assemble. That way the bad guys win etc.
posted by zutalors! at 8:13 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's not to say that there isn't a problem with police and their terrible tactics at these things. But the idea that people need kits to go to protests still feels wrong and makes me queasy.
Protests are our right as Americans. Some people get arrested at them because of violating these small pointless infractions like stopping in a roadway - I support their right to do that too, because those infractions are pointless - but the truth is most people won't get caught up in that.
I hope people aren't afraid to go out and exercise their right to assemble. That way the bad guys win etc.
posted by zutalors! at 8:13 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I donated to the Baton Rogue bail fund that Frowner linked earlier today. If you are able to do so, it seems to me like a good way to help from a distance.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:24 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:24 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
Another good critique of the Fryer study. Brings up the good point that the question Fryer is investigating is actually a less important aspect of race and policing (though sadly it is the exact question that anti-BLM people think matters and will seize upon).
Another good critique of the Fryer study. Brings up the good point that the question Fryer is investigating is actually a less important aspect of race and policing (though sadly it is the exact question that anti-BLM people think matters and will seize upon).
Philando Castile was stopped by the police more than 52 times (!) in the years before his untimely death and owed the courts more than $6,000 for various fines and feeds for miscellaneous petty violations. Rather than the narrow question of individual-level “bias” in isolated cases of officer shootings, it is these deep race (and class) inequities—in who gets stopped by the police and how they are treated by the justice system—that should command our attention.posted by AceRock at 8:57 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Despite being on NLG's priority list, my friend isn't out yet. We've been getting weird conflicting news all day: that EBRSO had the prison on lockdown due to the influx of protesters; that lawyers weren't allowed in until 1PM, that his bail was posted at 6PM BR time; that he was back in his own clothes and ready to go. It's nearly midnight there and nobody knows what is going on, except that we're all still waiting.
Times like this I wish I knew how to speak Lawyer to cops in such a way they'd hurry this up. Or knew someone who'd make a few calls for me.
He got targeted a lot at Occupy Tampa too; I'm not surprised he was snatched there. He's soft spoken, has the build of a whippet, is NB/male, and is Black. Just the kind of person riot cops like to grab: one who can't fight back. I've heard they were going for 'easy targets' in Baton Rouge. I'm not surprised.
posted by cmyk at 9:34 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Times like this I wish I knew how to speak Lawyer to cops in such a way they'd hurry this up. Or knew someone who'd make a few calls for me.
He got targeted a lot at Occupy Tampa too; I'm not surprised he was snatched there. He's soft spoken, has the build of a whippet, is NB/male, and is Black. Just the kind of person riot cops like to grab: one who can't fight back. I've heard they were going for 'easy targets' in Baton Rouge. I'm not surprised.
posted by cmyk at 9:34 PM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
... wow, venting on Metafilter works! His mother just updated. He's out.
posted by cmyk at 9:36 PM on July 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by cmyk at 9:36 PM on July 11, 2016 [20 favorites]
Metafilter: wow, venting on Metafilter works!
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:40 PM on July 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:40 PM on July 11, 2016 [14 favorites]
(But seriously, that's great. I joke because I'm furious.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:42 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:42 PM on July 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
(I know. Oh, I know. He's one out - how many are still in?)
posted by cmyk at 9:45 PM on July 11, 2016
posted by cmyk at 9:45 PM on July 11, 2016
I am seeing a lot of this kind of statement on social media in regards to protesters: "first amendment rights only apply to the government."
What does this mean/why is it being trotted out now and where did it come from?
posted by futz at 9:51 PM on July 11, 2016
What does this mean/why is it being trotted out now and where did it come from?
posted by futz at 9:51 PM on July 11, 2016
What does this mean/why is it being trotted out now and where did it come from?
Traditionally, the Bill of Rights keeps the government from limiting your free speech, freedom of association, etc. So if you stand up in my store (or on my privately-owned internet forum) and start shouting political slogans, I can make you stop because I'm not the government, and the First Amendment only binds the government, not private actors.
How that applies in this context is beyond me, though, since what people are protesting is, in fact, government action: the police are the arm of the government.
posted by suelac at 9:57 PM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Traditionally, the Bill of Rights keeps the government from limiting your free speech, freedom of association, etc. So if you stand up in my store (or on my privately-owned internet forum) and start shouting political slogans, I can make you stop because I'm not the government, and the First Amendment only binds the government, not private actors.
How that applies in this context is beyond me, though, since what people are protesting is, in fact, government action: the police are the arm of the government.
posted by suelac at 9:57 PM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
An inability to comprehend even batshittily beyond-the-pale legalese, I think.
The party line is that "states can do whatever the hell they want because the Constitution is only binding on the federal government".
I guess that means the Civil War was Lincoln's fault?
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:59 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The party line is that "states can do whatever the hell they want because the Constitution is only binding on the federal government".
I guess that means the Civil War was Lincoln's fault?
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:59 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not to stray too far from the main thread but it was well into the early 2000's that I would every so often run across people who chose to refer to the civil war as the "war of northern aggression" so you may not be that far off the mark?
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:30 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:30 PM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
my question is probably more appropriate for askme. cheers.
posted by futz at 10:51 PM on July 11, 2016
posted by futz at 10:51 PM on July 11, 2016
A former coworker of mind tells me that, in her high school in the South, a decade ago (in the Carolinas, I think?), the textbooks referred to the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression".
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:13 AM on July 12, 2016
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:13 AM on July 12, 2016
escape from the potato planet: Two: Yeah, because a Black Lives Matter activist (1) is going to get hired to a major metropolitan police force, and (2) is going to be welcomed like a brother by the existing force.
From the sounds of it, Dallas is maybe the one place where those things would happen. Based on everything else I've read so far, the chief is serious. He has dramatically reduced violence between police and civilians:
"In 2009, 147 excessive force complaints were filed against the Department. Last year, there were only 19. Dallas PD has had, year after year, repeated drops in both officer-involved-shootings AND assaults on officers."
Ultimately, more people with sympathy for or experience with Black Lives Matter joining police forces may be the only permanent solution to the problem. Dallas is the one place this might start happening. I hope some activists take him up on this. It'll take incredible bravery, and I don't fault anyone who says it's not for them, but I sincerely hope it's the beginning of a necessary change.
posted by clawsoon at 6:16 AM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
From the sounds of it, Dallas is maybe the one place where those things would happen. Based on everything else I've read so far, the chief is serious. He has dramatically reduced violence between police and civilians:
"In 2009, 147 excessive force complaints were filed against the Department. Last year, there were only 19. Dallas PD has had, year after year, repeated drops in both officer-involved-shootings AND assaults on officers."
Ultimately, more people with sympathy for or experience with Black Lives Matter joining police forces may be the only permanent solution to the problem. Dallas is the one place this might start happening. I hope some activists take him up on this. It'll take incredible bravery, and I don't fault anyone who says it's not for them, but I sincerely hope it's the beginning of a necessary change.
posted by clawsoon at 6:16 AM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
There was finally a decent-sized rally in Milwaukee last night (I didn't go because it was hot and I'm sensitive to heatstroke). Doesn't seem like BLM was involved, rather SURJ (Stand Up for Racial Justice). I don't know much about them but it seems like they are a white ally group. The hashtag #EndWhiteSilence was frequently used, and I saw t-shirts that said "White Silence is Violence." Looking at the HT, it seems there were also protests in Portland and Louisville last night. I hope white allies are welcomed and are doing this right (e.g. not centering themselves)? I'd prefer a Black activist perspective on it.
Milwaukee protests tend to be peaceful; the police generally stay out of the way. Plenty of people were marching in the street last night and there were zero cops in the pictures. The sheriff's officers are more confrontational but last night they were just blocking freeway entrances. Last summer there were arrests when people blocked the major interstate, but it was nothing like other cities. No tear gas, pepper spray, LRADs, etc.
Aside: I asked a bunch of trans male friends what happens if you get arrested. If it's during a protest, they generally just keep you at the station until you're released on your own recognizance. If you're charged, you go to the jail that matches your gender marker. If you lack the expected genitals, you're put in protective custody (i.e., solitary). YMMV if you are a trans woman.
posted by AFABulous at 6:26 AM on July 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Milwaukee protests tend to be peaceful; the police generally stay out of the way. Plenty of people were marching in the street last night and there were zero cops in the pictures. The sheriff's officers are more confrontational but last night they were just blocking freeway entrances. Last summer there were arrests when people blocked the major interstate, but it was nothing like other cities. No tear gas, pepper spray, LRADs, etc.
Aside: I asked a bunch of trans male friends what happens if you get arrested. If it's during a protest, they generally just keep you at the station until you're released on your own recognizance. If you're charged, you go to the jail that matches your gender marker. If you lack the expected genitals, you're put in protective custody (i.e., solitary). YMMV if you are a trans woman.
posted by AFABulous at 6:26 AM on July 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
A data point about trans male experience being arrested - someone I know had a really scary and violent experience after a protest arrest. There is a perception on these our internets that trans men do not experience violence or harassment, and definitely in some parts of the country this is true for some trans men (white and professional class trans men, IME). But YMMV very much indeed - it is worth asking around for stories in your specific jurisdiction. Even here in the Twin Cities, Minneapolis is very different from St. Paul - and once you get outside of the cities it's a crapshoot.
posted by Frowner at 6:41 AM on July 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:41 AM on July 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I can't even remember which terrible death the march was for.
This is the saddest sentence.
posted by AFABulous at 7:00 AM on July 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is the saddest sentence.
posted by AFABulous at 7:00 AM on July 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Dark Matters by Neil DeGrasse Tyson: Taken collectively, however, you would think the cops had a vendetta against physicists because that was the only profile we all had in common. One thing was for sure, the stories were not singular, novel moments playfully recounted. They were common, recurring episodes. How could this assembly of highly educated scientists, each in possession of a PhD — the highest academic degree in the land — be so vulnerable to police inquiry in their lives? Maybe the police cued on something else. Maybe it was the color of our skin. The conference I had been attending was the 23rd meeting of the National Society of Black Physicists. We were guilty not of DWI (Driving While Intoxicated), but of other violations none of us knew were on the books: DWB (Driving While Black), WWB (Walking While Black), and of course, JBB (Just Being Black).
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:28 AM on July 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:28 AM on July 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
An African-American dishwasher at Yale University has lost his job after breaking what he described as a “racist, very degrading” stained-glass window panel at one of the university’s dining halls, the New Haven Independent reports. The panel depicted two slaves picking cotton.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:30 AM on July 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:30 AM on July 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Minneapolis cops leave security posts at Lynx game over shirts
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:33 AM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:33 AM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dark Matters by Neil DeGrasse Tyson:
In total, I was stopped two or three times by other security officers while entering physics buildings, but was never stopped entering the campus gym.posted by Etrigan at 7:34 AM on July 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Otherwise, he would have had to wait until the following Wednesday to see the judge, who apparently only drops by once-a-week.
This crap is unconscionable and it happens all over the country.
Don't know how much you know about county/city stuff in Georgia, but Dekalb pretty much contains half of Atlanta.
This is unconscionable in a major city. Some po-dunk county with one judge that has to travel around? Yeah I could see how you would have to wait. But Atlanta? For unpaid traffic tickets? Total bullshit. Not surprised that Dunwoody police were involved either.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:36 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
This crap is unconscionable and it happens all over the country.
Don't know how much you know about county/city stuff in Georgia, but Dekalb pretty much contains half of Atlanta.
This is unconscionable in a major city. Some po-dunk county with one judge that has to travel around? Yeah I could see how you would have to wait. But Atlanta? For unpaid traffic tickets? Total bullshit. Not surprised that Dunwoody police were involved either.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:36 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I hope white allies are welcomed and are doing this right (e.g. not centering themselves)
This was the case at the small local rally I attended. When I first arrived, there was a white guy on the megaphone, and I was cringing inside, like "oh great; let's hear what the white hippie kid has to say about black lives". But it turned out that he was just the organizer, and he was actively telling people to prioritize black voices. Black, white, Latino, male, female, straight, queer, religious, atheist, middle-class, working-class – lots of people got a turn on the megaphone, but predominantly black folks.
I'll confess – as a white guy, I had a small amount of anxiety about participating in a BLM protest. Not because I'm not enthusiastic about the cause, but because it's not always easy to know what your proper role is, whether you are wanted or not, how your participation is going to be taken, etc. But I felt nothing but unity and solidarity at this event. Black co-organizers encouraged everyone to put our fists in the air – and that's a gesture which, though symbolically powerful, I had hitherto been hesitant to employ. (It's still not something I intend to deploy thoughtlessly, but it worked in the context.) When an older white lady yelled some "all lives matter" stuff at us, a small group of white marchers immediately flocked to her and engaged her (disarming and bewildering her with our civility) – I think there was just a collective, instinctive understanding that she was our problem to address.
There is room for discussion about the role for non-POC in these matters, but the way I see it, we have two primary jobs: (1) when POC are talking, shut up and listen. When POC are leading, follow. and, (2) talk to other white people. Use your white privilege for good. Skeptics will often listen to white voices when they might not listen to the same message from a POC. Know your shit; come prepared with clear counterarguments to all the standard talking points. Try to be patient and civil, especially when it's hard. No one will ever be converted on the spot, but repeated interactions over time do change minds. I've seen it happen.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:38 AM on July 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
This was the case at the small local rally I attended. When I first arrived, there was a white guy on the megaphone, and I was cringing inside, like "oh great; let's hear what the white hippie kid has to say about black lives". But it turned out that he was just the organizer, and he was actively telling people to prioritize black voices. Black, white, Latino, male, female, straight, queer, religious, atheist, middle-class, working-class – lots of people got a turn on the megaphone, but predominantly black folks.
I'll confess – as a white guy, I had a small amount of anxiety about participating in a BLM protest. Not because I'm not enthusiastic about the cause, but because it's not always easy to know what your proper role is, whether you are wanted or not, how your participation is going to be taken, etc. But I felt nothing but unity and solidarity at this event. Black co-organizers encouraged everyone to put our fists in the air – and that's a gesture which, though symbolically powerful, I had hitherto been hesitant to employ. (It's still not something I intend to deploy thoughtlessly, but it worked in the context.) When an older white lady yelled some "all lives matter" stuff at us, a small group of white marchers immediately flocked to her and engaged her (disarming and bewildering her with our civility) – I think there was just a collective, instinctive understanding that she was our problem to address.
There is room for discussion about the role for non-POC in these matters, but the way I see it, we have two primary jobs: (1) when POC are talking, shut up and listen. When POC are leading, follow. and, (2) talk to other white people. Use your white privilege for good. Skeptics will often listen to white voices when they might not listen to the same message from a POC. Know your shit; come prepared with clear counterarguments to all the standard talking points. Try to be patient and civil, especially when it's hard. No one will ever be converted on the spot, but repeated interactions over time do change minds. I've seen it happen.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:38 AM on July 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
FYI, response from (TN governor) Bill Haslam, dated July 11, 2016, to my email about police brutality:
Dear Joanne:
Thank you for writing to me and sharing your thoughts and concerns regarding concerns regarding [sic] the need for police body cameras. Listening to and learning from Tennesseans is very important to me, and I appreciate hearing from you. After careful review of your letter, I have forwarded it to my legislative staff for consideration. Your suggestions will be helpful as we develop our legislative and policy agenda.
Again, thank you for taking the time to write. I look forward to working with you and all Tennesseans to make our great state an even better place to live, work, and raise a family.
Warmest regards,
Bill Haslam
My original email, sent July 9, 2016:
The Honorable Governor Bill Haslam
1st Floor, State Capitol
Nashville, TN 37243
via email form: http://www.tn.gov/governor/topic/contact
Dear Governor Haslam,
In the wake of the deaths of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, I am writing to ask you to propose and support legislation to combat police brutality, especially against people of color, immigrants, and the mentally challenged.
Some of the concrete proposals you could propose or support include:
• Police should wear cameras and have cameras mounted on their vehicles. Police should be constantly on camera while on duty. A study in 2012 found that “after cameras were introduced in February 2012, public complaints against officers plunged 88% compared with the previous 12 months. Officers' use of force fell by 60%.” (from https://www.theguardian.com/.../california-police-body...) If a camera is turned off or “malfunctions” that should be considered inculpatory evidence, which tends to prove guilt.
• Police need training in how racial bias affects their interactions with, and assumptions about, members of the public.
• Police departments need training in non-violent solutions and de-escalation.
• All police brutality complaints must be investigated, and must be investigated in a process that includes non-police citizen oversight. Police officers who are found guilty of wrongful death or murder must be removed from the force and barred from being hired as a police officer in another jurisdiction, as well as being prosecuted.
• Special prosecutors should be assigned to cases that involve police misconduct of any kind, since state attorney generals usually have close relationships with the police, to avoid both actual conflict of interest and the appearance of it.
• Settlements should no longer be shifted to taxpayers, which removes a substantial incentive against police misconduct.
I am certain that there are many other initiatives which would help prevent further appalling acts of violence. I encourage you to reach out to community leaders, especially in the Black Lives Matter movement and other groups organizing against police brutality.
Thanks so much for your attention.
Sincerely,
Joanne Merriam
Nashville, TN
cc:
Rep. Jason Powell, House District 53, Rep.Jason.Powell@capitol.tn.gov
Sen. Jeff Yarbro, Senate District 21, Sen.Jeff.Yarbro@capitol.tn.gov
Megan Barry, Mayor, Nashville, TN, mayor@nashville.gov
[No response yet from the cc's. Feel free to steal any or all of this. There's also a list of policy goals from BLM here - but I didn't see it until after I wrote my email last Saturday so not all their bullet points are on my list. How to contact your elected officials.]
posted by joannemerriam at 7:59 AM on July 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
Dear Joanne:
Thank you for writing to me and sharing your thoughts and concerns regarding concerns regarding [sic] the need for police body cameras. Listening to and learning from Tennesseans is very important to me, and I appreciate hearing from you. After careful review of your letter, I have forwarded it to my legislative staff for consideration. Your suggestions will be helpful as we develop our legislative and policy agenda.
Again, thank you for taking the time to write. I look forward to working with you and all Tennesseans to make our great state an even better place to live, work, and raise a family.
Warmest regards,
Bill Haslam
My original email, sent July 9, 2016:
The Honorable Governor Bill Haslam
1st Floor, State Capitol
Nashville, TN 37243
via email form: http://www.tn.gov/governor/topic/contact
Dear Governor Haslam,
In the wake of the deaths of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, I am writing to ask you to propose and support legislation to combat police brutality, especially against people of color, immigrants, and the mentally challenged.
Some of the concrete proposals you could propose or support include:
• Police should wear cameras and have cameras mounted on their vehicles. Police should be constantly on camera while on duty. A study in 2012 found that “after cameras were introduced in February 2012, public complaints against officers plunged 88% compared with the previous 12 months. Officers' use of force fell by 60%.” (from https://www.theguardian.com/.../california-police-body...) If a camera is turned off or “malfunctions” that should be considered inculpatory evidence, which tends to prove guilt.
• Police need training in how racial bias affects their interactions with, and assumptions about, members of the public.
• Police departments need training in non-violent solutions and de-escalation.
• All police brutality complaints must be investigated, and must be investigated in a process that includes non-police citizen oversight. Police officers who are found guilty of wrongful death or murder must be removed from the force and barred from being hired as a police officer in another jurisdiction, as well as being prosecuted.
• Special prosecutors should be assigned to cases that involve police misconduct of any kind, since state attorney generals usually have close relationships with the police, to avoid both actual conflict of interest and the appearance of it.
• Settlements should no longer be shifted to taxpayers, which removes a substantial incentive against police misconduct.
I am certain that there are many other initiatives which would help prevent further appalling acts of violence. I encourage you to reach out to community leaders, especially in the Black Lives Matter movement and other groups organizing against police brutality.
Thanks so much for your attention.
Sincerely,
Joanne Merriam
Nashville, TN
cc:
Rep. Jason Powell, House District 53, Rep.Jason.Powell@capitol.tn.gov
Sen. Jeff Yarbro, Senate District 21, Sen.Jeff.Yarbro@capitol.tn.gov
Megan Barry, Mayor, Nashville, TN, mayor@nashville.gov
[No response yet from the cc's. Feel free to steal any or all of this. There's also a list of policy goals from BLM here - but I didn't see it until after I wrote my email last Saturday so not all their bullet points are on my list. How to contact your elected officials.]
posted by joannemerriam at 7:59 AM on July 12, 2016 [18 favorites]
SecretAgentSockpuppet: A bandana soaked in water tied around nose and mouth will help filter most police grenades.
Just a word of warning that this can actually make things worse depending on what agent is being used in a tear gas grenade. Many riot control agents come in the form of crystals which react with water. See Facing Tear Gas for more information:
posted by zarq at 8:13 AM on July 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Just a word of warning that this can actually make things worse depending on what agent is being used in a tear gas grenade. Many riot control agents come in the form of crystals which react with water. See Facing Tear Gas for more information:
Many groups outside US Prisons who face state repression have gathered their own methods of addressing tear gas exposure. The People's Community Medics based in Oakland saw a need for healthcare in their neighborhood in response to street and police violence. They taught themselves how to support people experiencing seizures, gunshot wounds, and impacts of chemical weapons like tear gas. They provided the following suggestions in response to tear gas at the People’s Community Medic’s training at the INCITE: Color of Violence Conference, Chicago, March 2015:
1. Put 50% Maalox (liquid antacid/Milk of Magnesia) and 50% water in a spray bottle and spray everywhere the chemicals hit. If you only have Milk of Magnesia tablets, chew them up and spit them into your hand, and rub on affected skin.
2. Carry an extra set of clothes (loose, like sweats), so clothes that are gassed can be removed and/or discarded. If you keep them, wash them alone, in cold water, several times.
3. Have a bandana or dust-mask soaked with vinegar in a baggie and cover your mouth when police start putting on their gas masks, since you know its about to go down.
4. Don't wear contacts if you are at risk of being exposed to chemical weapons.
5. If a canister gets thrown at you, do not pick it up; kick it away from you and away from other people. Only pick it up if you have very thick gloves.
According to the International News Safety Institute (INSI), an organization providing practical information to help journalists do their jobs safely, the most effective protection against tear gas and pepper spray is a respirator gas mask. They inform their members that:
* A gas mask consists of a rubber mask with a canister and filter fitted to the side.
* It is fitted to the size and shape of your face, and you should not assume that yours will fit someone else. If you already have a gas mask, make sure it is working properly and is correctly fitted. Any masks purchased online or in military surplus stores should be checked by an expert to ensure they work correctly.
* Ensure you have a spare canister, as they do need changing after several hours (this depends on the make and model of the gas mask as well as how long it has been used).
* The next best thing after a gas mask is an escape hood.... You can also use a builder's respirator that covers your nose and mouth – but make sure that you use appropriate filters. Failing that, a dust mask for DIY and building and airtight goggles will provide some degree of protection.
Persons incarcerated in the US, however, have little access to these responses or protections. There are a few points shared on the INSI website, however, that people enduring in prisons can keep in mind when sprayed by tear gas or pepper spray. In writing this information, INSI spoke to British company SecureBio-- a chemical weapons firm whose website boasts of staff that "are cleared to UK Secret, having honed their skills on CBRN [chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear] operations around the world with specialist units from the British Army and [London's] Metropolitan Police Service."
* If you have no protection, cover your mouth and nose with cloth or clothing to protect your airway (keep in mind the outside of your clothes are likely to be contaminated).
* Keeping your arms outstretched will help CS gas to come off your clothing.
* Try to get to high ground – most teargases are heavier than air, so the highest concentrations tend to sit nearer to the ground. Do not crouch.
* Remember that the gas will infuse clothing for many months; so any clothing that may have been contaminated should be immediately washed several times or discarded.
* Many of these agents come in the form of crystals, which react with water. Using small amounts of water (such as a wet towel or shirt) immediately after exposure to CS gas is likely to reactivate these crystals and may prolong the effects. Any exposed skin should be washed with soap and lots of water. Shower first in cold water, then warm water. Do not bathe.
* Don't rub your eyes or face, or this will reactivate any crystals.
posted by zarq at 8:13 AM on July 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I just got this e-mail from the Environmental Law Institute -- basically the last place I'd expect to hear anything about the events of this week. They're studiously nonpartisan and in the five years I've worked here have had nothing whatsoever to say about anything other than, well, environmental law.
For nearly 50 years, ELI has held to a vision of “a healthy environment, prosperous economies, and vibrant communities founded on the rule of law,” both here and abroad. “Rule of law” – the idea of law being respected and followed-in-fact – depends on a number of factors, but none more important than the imperative that the law protect fundamental rights and be fairly and equally applied. In the environmental context, ELI has for years brought understanding to the issue of environmental justice – the idea of fair and equal treatment under environmental law regardless of race, heritage, or income.posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:14 AM on July 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
The imperative of fair and equal protection under the law of course applies much more broadly. Indeed, without this guarantee, law, and the institutions constructed to implement law, will not have legitimacy in the minds of the people, the system of laws will fail, and the vibrancy of our communities will be lost.
The latest incidents of racial violence must be seen as a breakdown of rule of law in the United States. In these incidents can be seen the multi-faceted horrors of what happens when rule of law fails. Plainly, key elements of the legal and enforcement institutions that all Americans rely upon are in need of repair. Only with the assurance of fair and equal protection under the law can respect for the law, confidence in our institutions, and the rule of law be restored. Transformational change is urgently needed to this end.
One more note for protest virgins, and then I'll shut up:
You don't have to do anything except show up. You don't have to chant, carry a sign, engage with counterprotesters, or engage the police. You can just show up and walk alongside – that in itself is a meaningful statement. And if it feels right in the moment to do more, you can do it. There are plenty of valid reasons not to participate in this particular form of activism – but not knowing the "correct" way to protest shouldn't be one of them.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:20 AM on July 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
You don't have to do anything except show up. You don't have to chant, carry a sign, engage with counterprotesters, or engage the police. You can just show up and walk alongside – that in itself is a meaningful statement. And if it feels right in the moment to do more, you can do it. There are plenty of valid reasons not to participate in this particular form of activism – but not knowing the "correct" way to protest shouldn't be one of them.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:20 AM on July 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
NYT: ‘Bomb Robot’ Takes Down Dallas Gunman, but Raises Enforcement Questions
But the decision to deliver a bomb by robot stunned some current and former law enforcement officials, who said they believed the new tactic blurred the line between policing and warfare.posted by Existential Dread at 8:34 AM on July 12, 2016 [14 favorites]
They said that it might have been an excessive use of force and that it set a precedent, adding that they were concerned that other departments across the country could begin using the same tactic.
“The further we remove the officer from the use of force and the consequences that come with it, the easier it becomes to use that tactic,” said Rick Nelson, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a former counterterrorism official on the National Security Council. “It’s what we have done with drones in warfare.”
“In warfare, your object is to kill,” he added. “Law enforcement has a different mission.”
There is room for discussion about the role for non-POC in these matters, but the way I see it, we have two primary jobs:
Three, in my view: material support, because (on average) white people are likely to have more resources than POC. Whether that's money, food, tents/clothes/blankets, transportation, social media platforms, or network connections. There's another rally in Milwaukee tonight that I can't attend, but I tweeted at the organizers and asked them to let me know if I can bring them stuff. I'm also willing to provide transportation (public transport is not great here, and obviously costs money).
posted by AFABulous at 10:48 AM on July 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Three, in my view: material support, because (on average) white people are likely to have more resources than POC. Whether that's money, food, tents/clothes/blankets, transportation, social media platforms, or network connections. There's another rally in Milwaukee tonight that I can't attend, but I tweeted at the organizers and asked them to let me know if I can bring them stuff. I'm also willing to provide transportation (public transport is not great here, and obviously costs money).
posted by AFABulous at 10:48 AM on July 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Another way to help? Shop at POC-owned businesses.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:00 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by spinifex23 at 11:00 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
“I’m a Cop and I Support Black Lives Matter: How Can We Heal These Wounds?” Diane Goldstein, The Influence, 11 July 2016
Cf. “How Ronald Reagan's Drug War Fueled Americans' Addiction to Racist Ideas,” Ibram X. Kendi, Id., 23 June 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 11:25 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Cf. “How Ronald Reagan's Drug War Fueled Americans' Addiction to Racist Ideas,” Ibram X. Kendi, Id., 23 June 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 11:25 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
President Bush, at the service for the Dallas officers: "Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:36 AM on July 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:36 AM on July 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
That's actually eloquent.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:49 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:49 AM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm not very good on the ground at a protest. I've got a bum knee and a bad back. If everyone went at my speed we'd be casually ambling for justice, not marching for it. And two of my anxiety triggers are crowds and loud noises.
What I can do is be the support crew. If someone gets arrested, I can make the calls. I can gather info for the person who will be collecting that protester from jail. I can do that work to support the people on the street.
Or - if I decide to go to an event - I can stay at wherever the 'base' meeting and regrouping point is, help hand out water, check on people who look tired or overheated or hungry or frightened and make sure they're taken care of.
People tend to want to march, to hold a sign, to shout and chant. It's more... glamorous, for lack of a better word. But having a support team is just as crucial. And, practically, much less likely to get you handcuffed.
A sidenote about getting arrested: some people see it as a badge of honor. That you didn't participate unless you got nabbed. Some people will start shit looking to get arrested. I don't know how getting pulled off the scene helps the scene any, but that's how they work. If you're worried about getting picked up yourself, you'll want to figure out if any of those people are at a protest and then stay away from them.
The rest of it is pretty routine stuff: have a buddy if you can, like Frowner says. Know where you are in relation to how you'll get home: bus stop, car, whatever. Know where the exits are, how you'd get out if you needed it, what your escape route would be. On a good day you won't need to know that, and on a really bad day it won't matter, but all the times in between it will help.
posted by cmyk at 12:13 PM on July 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
What I can do is be the support crew. If someone gets arrested, I can make the calls. I can gather info for the person who will be collecting that protester from jail. I can do that work to support the people on the street.
Or - if I decide to go to an event - I can stay at wherever the 'base' meeting and regrouping point is, help hand out water, check on people who look tired or overheated or hungry or frightened and make sure they're taken care of.
People tend to want to march, to hold a sign, to shout and chant. It's more... glamorous, for lack of a better word. But having a support team is just as crucial. And, practically, much less likely to get you handcuffed.
A sidenote about getting arrested: some people see it as a badge of honor. That you didn't participate unless you got nabbed. Some people will start shit looking to get arrested. I don't know how getting pulled off the scene helps the scene any, but that's how they work. If you're worried about getting picked up yourself, you'll want to figure out if any of those people are at a protest and then stay away from them.
The rest of it is pretty routine stuff: have a buddy if you can, like Frowner says. Know where you are in relation to how you'll get home: bus stop, car, whatever. Know where the exits are, how you'd get out if you needed it, what your escape route would be. On a good day you won't need to know that, and on a really bad day it won't matter, but all the times in between it will help.
posted by cmyk at 12:13 PM on July 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Obama's speech.
Holy crap.
That felt like history was just made.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:29 PM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Holy crap.
That felt like history was just made.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:29 PM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm looking forward to reading it, since his other speeches this week have been terrible.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:31 PM on July 12, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:31 PM on July 12, 2016
Seriously. "Statesman", and "Legacy" come to mind. He hit every single mark and brought the house down.
From where I sit, he can 'rest on his laurels' from here on out. People gonna be quoting him for the next 50 years.
posted by mikelieman at 12:47 PM on July 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
From where I sit, he can 'rest on his laurels' from here on out. People gonna be quoting him for the next 50 years.
posted by mikelieman at 12:47 PM on July 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
his other speeches this week have been terrible
He was travelling across the Atlantic and back again, dealing with a bunch of diplomatic business, and had several domestic events that are both personal to him and illustrative of the major problems of the country occur near-simultaneously. He can't hit them all out of the park on a good week, let alone the shitshow last week was, so maybe cut the guy some slack?
posted by zombieflanders at 12:48 PM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
He was travelling across the Atlantic and back again, dealing with a bunch of diplomatic business, and had several domestic events that are both personal to him and illustrative of the major problems of the country occur near-simultaneously. He can't hit them all out of the park on a good week, let alone the shitshow last week was, so maybe cut the guy some slack?
posted by zombieflanders at 12:48 PM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Twitter, as usual, hated it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:48 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:48 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
What speech? Where can I hear it?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:49 PM on July 12, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:49 PM on July 12, 2016
By calling it a "hate crime," Obama just put police officers on par with groups who actually fit the definition:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:50 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:50 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh twitter, never change.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:52 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:52 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe wait to see what Obama actually says before trusting a third-hand account from Tiger Beat on the Potomac quoting a top member of the FOP?
posted by zombieflanders at 12:54 PM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:54 PM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Broadcast starts around 55:35, President Obama starts speaking around 1:42:30.
posted by penduluum at 12:58 PM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by penduluum at 12:58 PM on July 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would love to know what that cop to his right is thinking. He looks like he's not too keen on what Obama is saying, though he did nod his head a tiny bit when Obama talked about expecting police to be parents, social workers, teachers, etc.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:37 PM on July 12, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:37 PM on July 12, 2016
President Bush, at the service for the Dallas officers: "Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions."
Reminds me of the fundamental attribution error in psychology: "the tendency for people to place an undue emphasis on internal characteristics of the agent (character or intention), rather than external factors, in explaining another person's behavior in a given situation. This contrasts with interpretating one's own behavior, where situational factors are more easily recognized and can be taken into account."
posted by AceRock at 1:41 PM on July 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Reminds me of the fundamental attribution error in psychology: "the tendency for people to place an undue emphasis on internal characteristics of the agent (character or intention), rather than external factors, in explaining another person's behavior in a given situation. This contrasts with interpretating one's own behavior, where situational factors are more easily recognized and can be taken into account."
posted by AceRock at 1:41 PM on July 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
We got it wrong.
Those three big words in headline type stretched across Saturday's front page — Gunman Targets Whites — were true according to police accounts in Dallas at the time but they badly oversimplified a very complex, rapidly evolving story, and angered many of our readers and many more in the broader community.
In my view the headline was so lacking in context as to be tone deaf, particularly in a city with a 65 percent African American population. That front page minimized the broader refrain of what's happening in our country with anguish over the deaths of young black men at the hands of police.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:11 PM on July 12, 2016 [14 favorites]
Those three big words in headline type stretched across Saturday's front page — Gunman Targets Whites — were true according to police accounts in Dallas at the time but they badly oversimplified a very complex, rapidly evolving story, and angered many of our readers and many more in the broader community.
In my view the headline was so lacking in context as to be tone deaf, particularly in a city with a 65 percent African American population. That front page minimized the broader refrain of what's happening in our country with anguish over the deaths of young black men at the hands of police.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:11 PM on July 12, 2016 [14 favorites]
Wow, that's an all-too-rare step for a news outlet to take.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:18 PM on July 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 2:18 PM on July 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would love to know what that cop to his right is thinking.
"Don't cry on TV. Don't cry on TV. Don't cry on TV."
That's not me trying to be pithy. I'm pretty sure that's what I would be thinking. Now I'm falling down the rabbit hole of replaying his reactions and trying to determine intent, which is probably not the best plan.
Not sure how I feel about this speech so far; maybe a bit skeptical? Then again I'm not American and I don't truly know the accuracy of the praise the president gives the Dallas PD on improving relations with community. I wouldn't really expect him to criticize a police department at a memorial service for cops either though, really.
posted by ODiV at 3:35 PM on July 12, 2016
"Don't cry on TV. Don't cry on TV. Don't cry on TV."
That's not me trying to be pithy. I'm pretty sure that's what I would be thinking. Now I'm falling down the rabbit hole of replaying his reactions and trying to determine intent, which is probably not the best plan.
Not sure how I feel about this speech so far; maybe a bit skeptical? Then again I'm not American and I don't truly know the accuracy of the praise the president gives the Dallas PD on improving relations with community. I wouldn't really expect him to criticize a police department at a memorial service for cops either though, really.
posted by ODiV at 3:35 PM on July 12, 2016
The ACLU has an app called Mobile Justice to record encounters with law enforcement:
posted by Room 641-A at 4:35 PM on July 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
To start recording, simply hold down the camera button on the outside of your phone, or open the app and hit the red ‘Record’ button and the app will use your phone’s camera to record both audio and video. To stop recording, simply tap the screen. As soon as you stop recording, the video will be automatically sent to the ACLU.They have state-specific versions, but I believe that they will forward out-of-area footage to the local chapters, so don't worry if your state isn't represented yet. There's also a Stop & Frisk app specific to NY at the same link.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:35 PM on July 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
He's holding a sign that says "all lives matter" too, I think. The hell?
posted by jamesonandwater at 6:34 PM on July 12, 2016
posted by jamesonandwater at 6:34 PM on July 12, 2016
Thanks, I had heard about this but couldn't find a video. My stream of the game included only the US anthem for some reason.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:03 PM on July 12, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:03 PM on July 12, 2016
Deadspin said it only aired in Canada because Fox.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:05 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:05 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't love the ACLU Mobile Justice app because it's kind of an information black hole. The video gets submitted to them, it's not stored locally _at_all_ [1] so if they decide not to get involved... what? I doubt they're going to dredge up these videos to share with you, so you could find yourself with something useful to yourself or someone else that you caught on camera but you may as well not have bothered at all.
Perhaps I am a little pre-inclined to be skeptical having been on the receiving end of the ACLU saying "eh" in response to something and declining to get involved. [2] But I think the lack of local storage is an issue. In particular I wonder what would happen if your phone couldn't connect to their servers.
When I turn on airplane mode and use the app it gives no indication there's a problem. When you finish recording it asks you a bunch of questions about the incident - a few of which are mandatory - and when I finally hit "done" it claimed everything was a-ok. Well, I know that video has gone nowhere. It might be in local storage for the app and will get uploaded later but who knows?
On the phone lock issue, if you lock the phone while recording (in test mode anyway) it simply pauses recording. When you re-open it starts recording again. It does not stop and upload. Same for if you exit the app and re-enter it.
[1] Assuming the Virginia Mobile Justice app is identical to all the other state versions, which seems reasonable. I only tested on iOS.
[2] I was involved in organizing a protest over this and the ACLU declined to have anything to do with it. Which is fine - they have to prioritize their resources. But I don't necessarily want my video recording to be dependent on them getting interested.
posted by phearlez at 7:52 PM on July 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Perhaps I am a little pre-inclined to be skeptical having been on the receiving end of the ACLU saying "eh" in response to something and declining to get involved. [2] But I think the lack of local storage is an issue. In particular I wonder what would happen if your phone couldn't connect to their servers.
When I turn on airplane mode and use the app it gives no indication there's a problem. When you finish recording it asks you a bunch of questions about the incident - a few of which are mandatory - and when I finally hit "done" it claimed everything was a-ok. Well, I know that video has gone nowhere. It might be in local storage for the app and will get uploaded later but who knows?
On the phone lock issue, if you lock the phone while recording (in test mode anyway) it simply pauses recording. When you re-open it starts recording again. It does not stop and upload. Same for if you exit the app and re-enter it.
[1] Assuming the Virginia Mobile Justice app is identical to all the other state versions, which seems reasonable. I only tested on iOS.
[2] I was involved in organizing a protest over this and the ACLU declined to have anything to do with it. Which is fine - they have to prioritize their resources. But I don't necessarily want my video recording to be dependent on them getting interested.
posted by phearlez at 7:52 PM on July 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
The Tenor who altered the Canadian national anthem espouses some fascinating theories on his Facebook account.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:03 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by murphy slaw at 8:03 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
good to know phearlez. Thank you.
posted by futz at 8:29 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 8:29 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have zero regard for the guy but I wouldn't call it "dancing", just a conspicuously unsolemn swayin' to the music... I mean, that would be considered inappropriate for the National Anthem at the start of a sports event, let alone a memorial service, but the Battle Hymn IS a rather catchy tune.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:30 PM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:30 PM on July 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Vi Hart on the Context for Black Lives Matter.
posted by pharm at 5:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by pharm at 5:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Philandro Castile's funeral is tomorrow.
It looks as though the family has planned it to be a public funeral, with a march from the funeral home to the cathedral. Nekima Levy-Pounds, who is the president of the NAACP (and a big deal as a lawyer, professor and writer) and who has been one of the organizers of many of the recent events, has put out a call to attend.
Normally I would not, of course, go to the funeral of someone I did not know in life, because that is intrusive and offensive. But since there's been a call to attend a march, I am going to try to go to this one if I can get the time off.
posted by Frowner at 6:50 AM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
It looks as though the family has planned it to be a public funeral, with a march from the funeral home to the cathedral. Nekima Levy-Pounds, who is the president of the NAACP (and a big deal as a lawyer, professor and writer) and who has been one of the organizers of many of the recent events, has put out a call to attend.
Normally I would not, of course, go to the funeral of someone I did not know in life, because that is intrusive and offensive. But since there's been a call to attend a march, I am going to try to go to this one if I can get the time off.
posted by Frowner at 6:50 AM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
It's a shame that the living presidents don't make Castile's funeral a priority as well.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 AM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:51 AM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
To clarify - it will be a procession rather than a march. (I wanted to clarify because it seemed worthwhile to capture the precise tone of the language the family has chosen so that people have a better understanding of what is being requested and made public.)
posted by Frowner at 6:54 AM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 6:54 AM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ran across this yesterday: Shamed Dogan, a African-American Republican state rep in MO, wrote a piece for the National Review entitled "Pro-Black, Pro-Police Reforms that Conservatives Should Get Behind". It's a five-point proposal for police reform that practically parrots many of the progressive reforms proposed by BLM offshoot Campaign Zero last year, while still being careful to coat the arguments in talking points that appeal to conservatives, e.g. talking about "union reform", comparing unwillingness to discuss racial profiling to Obama's failure to say "radical Islam", etc. I don't know if it's the sort of thing that's liable to get traction in conservative circles, but I'm curious to see if anything comes of it.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:23 AM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:23 AM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
According to my Facebook timeline thingie, the George Zimmerman "not guilty" verdict was three very long years ago today.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:32 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:32 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Near Certainty of Anti-Police Violence, Ta-Nehisi Coates - "What does it mean, for instance, that black children are ritually told that any stray movement in the face of the police might result in their own legal killing? When Eric Holder spoke about getting “The Talk” from his father, and then giving it to his own son, many of us nodded our heads. But many more of us were terrified. When the nation’s top cop must warn his children to be skeptical of his own troops, how legitimate can the police actually be?"
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:35 AM on July 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:35 AM on July 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
from Coates: It’s not just that the belief that Officer Timothy Loehmann got away with murdering a 12-year-old Tamir Rice, it is the reality that police officers have been getting away with murdering black people since the advent of American policing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:38 AM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:38 AM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
According to my Facebook timeline thingie, the George Zimmerman "not guilty" verdict was three very long years ago today.
Aw jeez. It doesn't feel that long to me, but maybe that's just me getting old. Oscar Grant was killed in 2009. I remember when that happened I thought a change was going to come because it was all on video.
In some ways a change has come - Black Lives Matter and the other racial justice projects that have come into being in the past few years are certainly the most real-feeling US-based political projects I can recall. You've got to expect that the people whose politics are forged in those groups are going to be political leaders all their lives, and that's going to rejuvenate the American left. I'd say it already is rejuvenating the left, honestly.
The other thing that is changed is that millions of Americans, mostly though not exclusively white, can now look at Black suffering and death on video and remain utterly unmoved or become actively angry at Black people and allies.
It occurs to me now - for years I thought that "the truth shall make you free" meant that you'd tell the truth and that would sort everything out, that if we just proved that the police beat and shoot people, then everyone would agree that it had to be stopped. And I thought that was a stupid thing to say, because it was so obviously untrue. But I realize now that I was using a stupid, wrong interpretation based only on the most literal reading. The truth shall make you free and then you can act, not the truth shall make other people change. The truth may not do a damn thing for other people. When you know the truth, you're free to act in relation to it. When you know that many people don't actually care even when they see someone get shot to death, you move into a new frame of mind and new politics can come into being.
I thought that because I did not believe that Rosa Parks was "just tired" or that MLK was politely nonconfrontational I'd gotten what people were saying in the Civil Rights Movement, but I sure didn't.
posted by Frowner at 7:43 AM on July 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Aw jeez. It doesn't feel that long to me, but maybe that's just me getting old. Oscar Grant was killed in 2009. I remember when that happened I thought a change was going to come because it was all on video.
In some ways a change has come - Black Lives Matter and the other racial justice projects that have come into being in the past few years are certainly the most real-feeling US-based political projects I can recall. You've got to expect that the people whose politics are forged in those groups are going to be political leaders all their lives, and that's going to rejuvenate the American left. I'd say it already is rejuvenating the left, honestly.
The other thing that is changed is that millions of Americans, mostly though not exclusively white, can now look at Black suffering and death on video and remain utterly unmoved or become actively angry at Black people and allies.
It occurs to me now - for years I thought that "the truth shall make you free" meant that you'd tell the truth and that would sort everything out, that if we just proved that the police beat and shoot people, then everyone would agree that it had to be stopped. And I thought that was a stupid thing to say, because it was so obviously untrue. But I realize now that I was using a stupid, wrong interpretation based only on the most literal reading. The truth shall make you free and then you can act, not the truth shall make other people change. The truth may not do a damn thing for other people. When you know the truth, you're free to act in relation to it. When you know that many people don't actually care even when they see someone get shot to death, you move into a new frame of mind and new politics can come into being.
I thought that because I did not believe that Rosa Parks was "just tired" or that MLK was politely nonconfrontational I'd gotten what people were saying in the Civil Rights Movement, but I sure didn't.
posted by Frowner at 7:43 AM on July 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Found a transcript of Obama's Dallas speech.
I don't think it's exactly petty or meanspirited of me to be bothered by the fact that the flags have been at half staff since the Dallas shootings, and apparently will continue to be at half staff for at least another day or so, and that the President and a couple of ex-presidents went to a memorial for the Dallas police, while to the best of my knowledge no one official has ever lowered a flag for any victim of police violence.
And there's Obama's reinforcement of the bunker mentality that is a contributing factor in police violence: "For the moment you put on that uniform, you have answered a call that at any moment, even in the briefest interaction, may put your life in harm’s way." Emphasis mine.
That kind of thinking, right there, is how they're justifying the murder of Castile, how they justified the murder of Tamir Rice, how they justified pretty much all the murders of innocent black men by police. They had to do it, officer safety is paramount, the world is out to get cops and at any moment, even in the briefest interaction, they might be killed. So they have to shoot first.
I'm baffled by everyone who says they're awed or impressed by Obama's speech. I've read the transcript and it was nothing special. Just praise heaped over, and over, and over, on the police with a side note that the most recent victims of police murder were nice people. He didn't even talk about the fact that they were killed by the police. He let that slide by unspoken.
Look at how he uses the passive voice when discussing Castile and Sterling
And then, back to praise of the police.
But notice what specific problem he doesn't actually name in his speech: black men being killed by the police. The closest he comes is a vague "something terrible may happen".
Look, I get that he's making a speech at a funeral for police officers. Thundering denunciations of the police are inappropriate in that context. But if he can't manage to even name the actual specific problem that was the cause of the whole mess, he'd have been better off sticking to pro-police platitudes about heroism and just leaving out all the vague, pathetic, attempts at bringing up justice. Maybe he could deliver a different speech, at a different venue, later?
And then, after vaguely sort of hinting that maybe, possibly, there's a problem with the way the police treat black people, he's back to praising the police. They murder black people, per Obama, because they're overworked, the poor things.
And I love that even when discussing the cold blooded murder of Sterling, Obama still felt it was necessary to put in the lie about putting officer's lives at risk. What about putting black citizen's lives at risk Obama?
Why are people acting like this is an amazing, legacy settling, speech? He proposes nothing, he can't even bring himself to acknowledge the core problem (police officers are murdering black people and getting away with it). All he did in the whole speech was just heap praise on cops and throw out a lot of God babble. There's nothing of value or worth in that speech. You could replace the whole thing with "police good, shooter bad, be nice".
posted by sotonohito at 8:21 AM on July 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
I don't think it's exactly petty or meanspirited of me to be bothered by the fact that the flags have been at half staff since the Dallas shootings, and apparently will continue to be at half staff for at least another day or so, and that the President and a couple of ex-presidents went to a memorial for the Dallas police, while to the best of my knowledge no one official has ever lowered a flag for any victim of police violence.
And there's Obama's reinforcement of the bunker mentality that is a contributing factor in police violence: "For the moment you put on that uniform, you have answered a call that at any moment, even in the briefest interaction, may put your life in harm’s way." Emphasis mine.
That kind of thinking, right there, is how they're justifying the murder of Castile, how they justified the murder of Tamir Rice, how they justified pretty much all the murders of innocent black men by police. They had to do it, officer safety is paramount, the world is out to get cops and at any moment, even in the briefest interaction, they might be killed. So they have to shoot first.
I'm baffled by everyone who says they're awed or impressed by Obama's speech. I've read the transcript and it was nothing special. Just praise heaped over, and over, and over, on the police with a side note that the most recent victims of police murder were nice people. He didn't even talk about the fact that they were killed by the police. He let that slide by unspoken.
Look at how he uses the passive voice when discussing Castile and Sterling
No. The reward comes in knowing that our entire way of life in America depends on the rule of law, that the maintenance of that law is a hard and daily labor, that in this country we don’t have soldiers in the streets or militias setting the rules.Apparently Castile and Sterling just mysteriously were killed, no mention of who killed them. "Police conduct" was the subject of the protest. Not police killing black men for no reason, just "police conduct".
Instead, we have public servants, police officers, like the men who were taken away from us. And that’s what these five were doing last Thursday when they were assigned to protect and keep orderly a peaceful protest in response to the killing of Alton Sterling of Baton Rouge and Philando Castile of Minnesota.
They were upholding the constitutional rights of this country.
For a while, the protests went on without incident. And despite the fact that police conduct was the subject of the protest, despite the fact that there must have been signs or slogans or chants with which they profoundly disagreed, these men and this department did their jobs like the professionals that they were.
And then, back to praise of the police.
And so when African-Americans from all walks of life, from different communities across the country, voice a growing despair over what they perceive to be unequal treatment, when study after study shows that whites and people of color experience the criminal justice system differently. So that if you’re black, you’re more likely to be pulled over or searched or arrested; more likely to get longer sentences; more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime. When mothers and fathers raised their kids right, and have the talk about how to respond if stopped by a police officer — yes, sir; no, sir — but still fear that something terrible may happen when their child walks out the door; still fear that kids being stupid and not quite doing things right might end in tragedy.Here, finally, he manages to almost sort of obliquely, hint at the problem.
But notice what specific problem he doesn't actually name in his speech: black men being killed by the police. The closest he comes is a vague "something terrible may happen".
Look, I get that he's making a speech at a funeral for police officers. Thundering denunciations of the police are inappropriate in that context. But if he can't manage to even name the actual specific problem that was the cause of the whole mess, he'd have been better off sticking to pro-police platitudes about heroism and just leaving out all the vague, pathetic, attempts at bringing up justice. Maybe he could deliver a different speech, at a different venue, later?
And then, after vaguely sort of hinting that maybe, possibly, there's a problem with the way the police treat black people, he's back to praising the police. They murder black people, per Obama, because they're overworked, the poor things.
And know that his life mattered to a whole lot of people of all races, of all ages, and that we have to do what we can without putting officers’ lives at risk, but do better to prevent another life like his from being lost.Yes, let's just forget about past injustice, forget about all the reasons why people might doubt that the police are even capable of self reform, and just join hands and work with them to achieve some mysterious and never directly stated goal.
With an open heart, we can worry less about which side has been wronged, and worry more about joining sides to do right
And I love that even when discussing the cold blooded murder of Sterling, Obama still felt it was necessary to put in the lie about putting officer's lives at risk. What about putting black citizen's lives at risk Obama?
Because the vicious killer of these police officers — they won’t be the last person who tries to make us turn on one another.Notice that he has no trouble identifying Micah Johnson not merely as a killer, but as a "vicious" killer. But Stirling and Castile just sort of mysteriously died, no killers were involved and certainly no vicious killers.
Why are people acting like this is an amazing, legacy settling, speech? He proposes nothing, he can't even bring himself to acknowledge the core problem (police officers are murdering black people and getting away with it). All he did in the whole speech was just heap praise on cops and throw out a lot of God babble. There's nothing of value or worth in that speech. You could replace the whole thing with "police good, shooter bad, be nice".
posted by sotonohito at 8:21 AM on July 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
sotonohito, I agree. There was nothing special about the speech.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on July 13, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on July 13, 2016
From the transcript of Obama's speech:
Being a cop is not a dangerous job. To repeat, as I wrote here on December 21, 2014,
But your work and the work of police officers across the country is like no other. For the moment you put on that uniform, you have answered a call that at any moment, even in the briefest interaction, may put your life in harm’s way.Much of Obama's talk hinged on the supposedly dangerous nature of policing. This is a myth.
…
Michael Krol answered that call. His mother said, he knew the dangers of the job, but he never shied away from his duty.
…
We know that the overwhelming majority of police officers do an incredibly hard and dangerous job fairly and professional. They are deserving of our respect and not our scorn.
Being a cop is not a dangerous job. To repeat, as I wrote here on December 21, 2014,
Regarding cops and "risk":posted by standardasparagus at 9:28 AM on July 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
The 2012 data reports that for “police and sheriff’s patrol officers,” the Fatal Injury Rate — that is, the “number of fatal occupational injuries per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers” — was 15.0.
That includes all causes of death — of the 105 dead officers recorded in the 2012 data, only 51 died due to “violence and other injuries by persons or animals.” Nearly as many, 48, died in “transportation incidents,” i.e., crashing their cars.
Here are some occupations with higher fatality rates than being a cop:
Logging workers: 129.9
Fishers and related fishing workers: 120.8
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers: 54.3
Roofers: 42.2
Structural iron and steel workers: 37.0
Refuse and recyclable material collectors: 32.3
Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers: 24.3
Electrical power-line installers and repairers: 23.9
Farmers, ranchers and other agricultural managers: 22.8
Construction laborers: 17.8
Taxi drivers and chauffeurs: 16.2
Maintenance and repairs workers, general: 15.7
And for good measure, some more that approach the allegedly terrifying risks of being a police officer:
First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers: 14.7
Grounds maintenance workers: 14.2
Athletes, coaches, umpires, and related workers: 13.0
When Will They Shoot?
Thank you, standardasparagus, for bringing out the numbers. We have turned into a nation where the civilians' job is to protect the police, and not vice-versa.
Time to print up bumper strickers:
LOGGERS' LIVES MATTER
PILOTS' LIVES MATTER
ROOFERS' LIVES MATTER
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:36 AM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Time to print up bumper strickers:
LOGGERS' LIVES MATTER
PILOTS' LIVES MATTER
ROOFERS' LIVES MATTER
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:36 AM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Before accepting the claim that police work is not actually dangerous, consider this slightly different take on the numbers. Among the reasonable points this article makes is that even in per capita dangerous jobs like logging and fishing, the risk of murder and assault is actually quite low. Not so for police.
I speak as someone who continues to mourn for some of the officers I've known who have been slain.
posted by bearwife at 9:36 AM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I speak as someone who continues to mourn for some of the officers I've known who have been slain.
posted by bearwife at 9:36 AM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
OBAMA: Lorne Ahrens, he answered that call. So did his wife, Katrina, not only because she was the spouse of a police officer, but because she’s a detective on the force. They have two kids. Lorne took them fishing. And he used to proudly go to their school in uniform.Lorne Ahrens is a white supremacist.
On the night before he died, he bought dinner for a homeless man. And the next night, Katrina had to tell their children that their dad was gone. “They don’t get it yet,” their grandma said. “They don’t know what to do quite yet.”
Ahrens was one of the five Dallas cops killed last week. While mainstream media presented him as a family man, gushed over his imposing size, his sense of humor, and otherwise went to great lengths to humanize and memorialize him as a hero, a band of international Internet sleuths came together to research something the press failed to notice: Ahrens’ affinity for imagery associated with white supremacists. Right in one of the main pictures journalists and editors were sharing with stories about Ahrens, is an Iron Cross tattooed on his finger. With this tipping them off, the Internet sleuths jumped into action and quickly turned up more evidence of Ahrens’ white supremacist leanings.Yet Ahrens, according to Obama, is deserving of respect from those he hates:
And the teenager — maybe the teenager will see in the police officer the same words, and values and authority of his parents.posted by standardasparagus at 9:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
I don't think we can blame Obama for the fact that America doesn't want to hear the truth. President Obama has tried harder than any other politician in my lifetime to speak to the American people like we're adults who can handle a bit of nuanced critical thinking. In return a good portion of this country has responded by going into complete meltdown and doubling down on ignorance. I will be glad when he's no longer president, purely for the reason that maybe White America (all across the political spectrum) can quit pointing their finger at him and look in the goddamned mirror for a change.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
Before accepting the claim that police work is not actually dangerous, consider this slightly different take on the numbers. Among the reasonable points this article makes is that even in per capita dangerous jobs like logging and fishing, the risk of murder and assault is actually quite low. Not so for police.
Your article does not refute the numbers, and it is facile to note that more police are murdered than loggers and fishers. Of course. What the numbers show is that it is simply false to state that policing is a dangerous job, insofar as one accepts the risk of fatality as an appropriate measure for assessing danger.
posted by standardasparagus at 9:43 AM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Your article does not refute the numbers, and it is facile to note that more police are murdered than loggers and fishers. Of course. What the numbers show is that it is simply false to state that policing is a dangerous job, insofar as one accepts the risk of fatality as an appropriate measure for assessing danger.
posted by standardasparagus at 9:43 AM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Before accepting the claim that police work is not actually dangerous, consider this slightly different take on the numbers.
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
If we were to rank dangerous jobs based on raw numbers as a [sic] opposed to rates...This could go in any elementary logic book as an example of "cherry-picking" -- that ranking only takes into account the "dangerous" jobs that were previously identified as such.
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Newsflash: Getting hit by a falling tree is more likely to be fatal than getting shot by a felon.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2016
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2016
I think it's kind of silly to act like being a police officer isn't dangerous. It's also kind of weak to operationalize dangerous as number of fatalities. Yes, it's a dangerous job, that isn't a surprise. You're seeing people pretty much on their worst day a lot of the time. But hey, that's what you signed up for. That's what you're supposed to be an expert in. If you can't do your job without killing people, get out. If you can't handle having to go in dangerous situations daily, you are not police officer material. It's really pretty simple to me.
posted by cashman at 9:54 AM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by cashman at 9:54 AM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
he danced to The Battle Hymn Of The Republic?
drinking again, got to be.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:01 AM on July 13, 2016
drinking again, got to be.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:01 AM on July 13, 2016
for years I thought that "the truth shall make you free" meant that you'd tell the truth and that would sort everything out, that if we just proved that the police beat and shoot people, then everyone would agree that it had to be stopped.
I was foolish enough to believe this as well. With the Oscar Grant case, and then later on when Walter Scott was killed in Charleston, South Carolina. I really did think that once the community saw, and officers saw that these things were being filmed, that the officers would stop. The Walter Scott shooting specifically.
But, and forgive me if this has been noted in here, a few days ago I had the misfortune of seeing Rudy Giuliani on MSNBC, and he made a really vile statement among his other terrible opinions.
Giuliani said "And the reality is that doesn’t matter if you’re white or black. If a police officer says to me, ‘Put your hands up’ and I try to run away, I try to lunge at them, I try to grab him, I don’t care if white or black that gun is going to come out."
See what he worked in there? If "I try to run away". That's despicable. He's letting the officer off the hook who shot Walter Scott in the back. He's saying that if you run from police, you deserve to get shot and killed. Pretty much nobody in their right mind recently has tried to defend a fleeing man getting shot in the back, but here you have Giuliani doing it. Sickening.
posted by cashman at 10:03 AM on July 13, 2016 [23 favorites]
I was foolish enough to believe this as well. With the Oscar Grant case, and then later on when Walter Scott was killed in Charleston, South Carolina. I really did think that once the community saw, and officers saw that these things were being filmed, that the officers would stop. The Walter Scott shooting specifically.
But, and forgive me if this has been noted in here, a few days ago I had the misfortune of seeing Rudy Giuliani on MSNBC, and he made a really vile statement among his other terrible opinions.
Giuliani said "And the reality is that doesn’t matter if you’re white or black. If a police officer says to me, ‘Put your hands up’ and I try to run away, I try to lunge at them, I try to grab him, I don’t care if white or black that gun is going to come out."
See what he worked in there? If "I try to run away". That's despicable. He's letting the officer off the hook who shot Walter Scott in the back. He's saying that if you run from police, you deserve to get shot and killed. Pretty much nobody in their right mind recently has tried to defend a fleeing man getting shot in the back, but here you have Giuliani doing it. Sickening.
posted by cashman at 10:03 AM on July 13, 2016 [23 favorites]
consider this slightly different take on the numbers
I'm sorry but I think that article is statistical sophistry. While it's certainly true that small professions will tend to be outliers in either direction, the solution to that is to use confidence intervals -- not to look at the raw counts, which is a step in the wrong direction (those give you, basically, the product of how popular the job is and how dangerous it is, so more popular jobs will tend to be higher in the list).
Beyond that, I see no reason why the "dangerousness" of a job should depend on whether the risk is of being murdered vs. being fatally crushed by heavy equipment vs. being sucked into space and lost. Murder and assault may well have a different emotional valence for the survivors and the people who've lost loved ones vs. accidents, but to me, that doesn't seem to have much to do with dangerousness per se.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:06 AM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry but I think that article is statistical sophistry. While it's certainly true that small professions will tend to be outliers in either direction, the solution to that is to use confidence intervals -- not to look at the raw counts, which is a step in the wrong direction (those give you, basically, the product of how popular the job is and how dangerous it is, so more popular jobs will tend to be higher in the list).
Beyond that, I see no reason why the "dangerousness" of a job should depend on whether the risk is of being murdered vs. being fatally crushed by heavy equipment vs. being sucked into space and lost. Murder and assault may well have a different emotional valence for the survivors and the people who've lost loved ones vs. accidents, but to me, that doesn't seem to have much to do with dangerousness per se.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:06 AM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Naomi LaChance: After Dallas Shootings, Police Arrest People for Criticizing Cops on Facebook and Twitter
posted by zombieflanders at 10:13 AM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 10:13 AM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
The point is not that policing is perfectly safe.
The point is that policing is demonstrably not a profession where every day they are taking their lives into their hands simply being police.
The point is that the supposed danger of being killed by criminals or suspects is sufficiently low that it cannot be reasonably used excuse the seeming eagerness of police to kill people, especially black men.
The point is that while there is a risk involved in policing that risk is both acceptably low and one freely chosen by the police. No one is forcing them to be police, and if they are incapable of interacting with black men in a way that doesn't involve murdering them then they should pick a different profession.
posted by sotonohito at 10:18 AM on July 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
The point is that policing is demonstrably not a profession where every day they are taking their lives into their hands simply being police.
The point is that the supposed danger of being killed by criminals or suspects is sufficiently low that it cannot be reasonably used excuse the seeming eagerness of police to kill people, especially black men.
The point is that while there is a risk involved in policing that risk is both acceptably low and one freely chosen by the police. No one is forcing them to be police, and if they are incapable of interacting with black men in a way that doesn't involve murdering them then they should pick a different profession.
posted by sotonohito at 10:18 AM on July 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
As several people on twitter have already pointed out, arresting people because of threats on social media is EXACTLY what police nationwide have been telling women is impossible for, oh, several years now.
But now that people are threatening cops-- or even criticizing them!!--it turns out to be way more possible than anyone ever dreamed.
People posting your address and contact info and threatening to rape and murder you? Nothing the police can do, sorry! Try not using the internet!
People post about their suspicions of the police? YOU ARE UNDER ARREST.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:30 AM on July 13, 2016 [57 favorites]
But now that people are threatening cops-- or even criticizing them!!--it turns out to be way more possible than anyone ever dreamed.
People posting your address and contact info and threatening to rape and murder you? Nothing the police can do, sorry! Try not using the internet!
People post about their suspicions of the police? YOU ARE UNDER ARREST.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:30 AM on July 13, 2016 [57 favorites]
See what he worked in there? If "I try to run away". That's despicable. He's letting the officer off the hook who shot Walter Scott in the back. He's saying that if you run from police, you deserve to get shot and killed. Pretty much nobody in their right mind recently has tried to defend a fleeing man getting shot in the back, but here you have Giuliani doing it. Sickening.
It's worth remembering that the Supreme court case that set a limit on shooting fleeing suspects is only 30 years old, based on an incident in the 70s when a unarmed teenaged boy was shot in the back over $10. The law on the books allowing this stated that "if, after notice of the intention to arrest the defendant, he either flee or forcibly resist, the officer may use all the necessary means to effect the arrest."
The dissent on the decision, written by O'Connor and joined by Rehnquist, points out that this fleeing felon rule is in place in half the states at this time, and right in the opener drops this line setting out the basis for the dissent:
So I am inclined to agree that this is a position that nobody in their right mind thinks this way. But it's not remotely an unusual position, even all the way at the top of jurisprudence.
posted by phearlez at 10:31 AM on July 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's worth remembering that the Supreme court case that set a limit on shooting fleeing suspects is only 30 years old, based on an incident in the 70s when a unarmed teenaged boy was shot in the back over $10. The law on the books allowing this stated that "if, after notice of the intention to arrest the defendant, he either flee or forcibly resist, the officer may use all the necessary means to effect the arrest."
The dissent on the decision, written by O'Connor and joined by Rehnquist, points out that this fleeing felon rule is in place in half the states at this time, and right in the opener drops this line setting out the basis for the dissent:
By disregarding the serious and dangerous nature of residential burglaries and the longstanding practice of many States, the Court effectively creates a Fourth Amendment right allowing a burglary suspect to flee unimpeded from a police officer who has probable cause to arrest, who has ordered the suspect to halt, and who has no means short of firing his weapon to prevent escape.That's a bald-faced claim that if the law has to choose between using deadly force on someone or accepting that they might get away that the law should potentially execute someone for burglary.
So I am inclined to agree that this is a position that nobody in their right mind thinks this way. But it's not remotely an unusual position, even all the way at the top of jurisprudence.
posted by phearlez at 10:31 AM on July 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
bearwife, please read this: It is far safer to be a NYPD officer than an average black man in Baltimore.
Being a police officer doesn't even crack the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America. It is vitally important that we not place propaganda above facts when we discuss this problem. Because it is most certainly a problem, and the myth that being a cop is incredibly dangerous and that they are civilization's only defense against hordes of PoC criminals is precisely why they're murdering the unarmed African Americans they're supposed to protect.
posted by zarq at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [43 favorites]
There are real-world harms that follow from the myths perpetuated by police unions. Arguments about the dangerous nature of police work drive the increasing militarization of police departments. The life-and-death nature of the job is used to push for extremely generous medical leave, overtime, and pay packages. Most insidious of all, the exaggerated danger and trumped-up heroism drives an us-versus-them mentality that suffuses contemporary big-city policing and bleeds into the criminal justice system, causing systemic imbalances that chronically favor the police over citizens.Also: It Has Never Been Safer to be a Cop.
Together, this creates a sense of invincibility and righteousness among the police that is used to justify even outrageous behavior while simultaneously creating the perception among the public that the police are untouchable. And it is that very sense of powerlessness in the face of police misconduct that has fueled the anger that fed the fires in Ferguson and ultimately led to the burning of Baltimore. The arrest of the officers there is a fine first step. But until we stop the hagiography and replace our reverence with some reality, we will never be able to judge cops by the same standards we judge everyone else. And until that happens, the resentment that burned Baltimore will persist.
Being a police officer doesn't even crack the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America. It is vitally important that we not place propaganda above facts when we discuss this problem. Because it is most certainly a problem, and the myth that being a cop is incredibly dangerous and that they are civilization's only defense against hordes of PoC criminals is precisely why they're murdering the unarmed African Americans they're supposed to protect.
posted by zarq at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [43 favorites]
From the Intercept article: An Illinois woman, Jenesis Reynolds, was arrested for writing in a Facebook post that she would shoot an officer who would pull her over. “I have no problem shooting a cop for simple traffic stop cuz they’d have no problem doing it to me,” she wrote, according to the police investigation. She was charged with disorderly conduct.
That's in Evergreen Park, a Chicago suburb. Joe Walsh is in Chicago, they gonna go get him too?
posted by phearlez at 10:39 AM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's in Evergreen Park, a Chicago suburb. Joe Walsh is in Chicago, they gonna go get him too?
posted by phearlez at 10:39 AM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Minneapolis PD Issues Questionable DMCA Notice To Bury Its Controversial Recruitment Video
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:54 AM on July 13, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:54 AM on July 13, 2016
Also: It Has Never Been Safer to be a Cop.
True, but arguing facts against what people feel or believe usually never works, sadly. I don't know what to do that human faulit, it's incredibly frustrating.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:14 AM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
True, but arguing facts against what people feel or believe usually never works, sadly. I don't know what to do that human faulit, it's incredibly frustrating.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:14 AM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think speaking to the emotional element helps. Saying "I hear you" and stuff like that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:55 AM on July 13, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:55 AM on July 13, 2016
Here are some interviews with the two people that uploaded video of the Alton Sterling homicide, describing what happened to them afterwards.
Abdullah Muflahi
Chris LeDay
posted by Roger Dodger at 12:00 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Abdullah Muflahi
Chris LeDay
posted by Roger Dodger at 12:00 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
“Updates from the NLG Louisiana Chapter re: Baton Rouge Protests,” 12 July 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 12:28 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 12:28 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
WTF, Baton Rouge. Glad most are out, but how gross and unnecessary.
posted by agregoli at 12:44 PM on July 13, 2016
posted by agregoli at 12:44 PM on July 13, 2016
Many of them were holding assault rifles with fingers on their triggers and those guns were pointed at the protesters.
"fingers on their triggers "
What the fuck is wrong with these people? The second rule of guns straight from the NRA:
posted by Talez at 12:47 PM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
"
What the fuck is wrong with these people? The second rule of guns straight from the NRA:
ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.So what is it BR police? Are your cops ready to shoot unarmed protesters or are they grossly fucking incompetent?
posted by Talez at 12:47 PM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
What confuses me about the trigger thing - even when it's conservative blogger assholes like that guy in Portland - is that I don't think that they would actually feel good about shooting a bunch of random people on the street after the fact. I don't think most of these people would go through life patting themselves on the back and feeling unconflicted - I think if a cop killed a bunch of protesters or a right wing blogger killed people in the street, he'd be pretty traumatized, no matter how much the right wing blogosphere congratulated him afterward. Just from mere selfishness I would imagine that they'd think twice - if you fire on a bunch of teenagers and community elders, your family will always be the family of that person, you will always be that person, your kids will always have to deal with what you did, you'll be a huge media target. Sure, you'll get money and praise from conservatives, but not even all of them - I think there's plenty of people who would be pretty shaken up.
So I feel like, even if you're an utter asshole, why are you even taking that chance? Even if you think protesters are horrible and should go to jail, are you really ready for what will come with killing them in cold blood?
posted by Frowner at 12:58 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
So I feel like, even if you're an utter asshole, why are you even taking that chance? Even if you think protesters are horrible and should go to jail, are you really ready for what will come with killing them in cold blood?
posted by Frowner at 12:58 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
What confuses me about the trigger thing
It's an indication of how poorly trained they are.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:04 PM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
It's an indication of how poorly trained they are.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:04 PM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
It's an indication of how poorly trained they are.
And how unused they are to thinking of people as people rather than as potential targets.
posted by zarq at 1:18 PM on July 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
And how unused they are to thinking of people as people rather than as potential targets.
posted by zarq at 1:18 PM on July 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Not just poor training though, but also poor management. One officer doing it is a mistake. A whole group of police openly violating a basic rule of firearms safety in front of their supervisors, legal observers, journalists, and the public is an unaccountable mob.
This is basic firearms safety as defined by the goddamn NRA.
posted by zachlipton at 1:27 PM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
This is basic firearms safety as defined by the goddamn NRA.
posted by zachlipton at 1:27 PM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
“The Police in Baton Rouge Don’t Like It When Protesters Exercise Their Rights, So We’re Taking Them to Court,” Lee Rowland, ACLU, 13 July 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 1:28 PM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 1:28 PM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is basic firearms safety as defined by the goddamn NRA.
As with their curious silence on the murder of Philando Castile, Lawful Gun Owner, the NRA probably has an unwritten exception for circumstances involving people of color.
posted by indubitable at 2:33 PM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
As with their curious silence on the murder of Philando Castile, Lawful Gun Owner, the NRA probably has an unwritten exception for circumstances involving people of color.
posted by indubitable at 2:33 PM on July 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Finger on the trigger sounds crazy. Are we sure that they didn't have their finger in the recommended (but still kinda crazy given the situation) just beside the trigger location?
posted by clawsoon at 2:36 PM on July 13, 2016
posted by clawsoon at 2:36 PM on July 13, 2016
. Are we sure that they didn't have their finger in the recommended (but still kinda crazy given the situation) just beside the trigger location?
From the fucking article:
I am paying attention to the people who were there.
What are you doing?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:45 PM on July 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
From the fucking article:
National Lawyers Guild legal observers documenting the protest attested that protesters were not violent.Professionally-trained negotiators attempted to intervene with law enforcement at the confrontation, but they refused to cooperate and deescalate the situation. Mandisa Moore-O’Neal, a local attorney and Vice President of the Louisiana National Lawyers Guild, said “myself and members of the Louisiana Chapter of the National Lawyers Guild tried many times to intervene and ask law enforcement to de-escalate. Many of them were holding assault rifles with fingers on their triggers and those guns were pointed at the protesters. I had a clear view of both sides of the street; I did not see one thing was thrown by the protesters. I did not see any rocks or asphalt being thrown by protesters.”I don't know what "we" are doing because "we" were not there.
I am paying attention to the people who were there.
What are you doing?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:45 PM on July 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
the man of twists and turns: What are you doing?
I'm saying it's possible to have your trigger on the finger in the common sense sense, but not have your trigger on the finger in the NRA sense. If I was at the protest and an officer did this, I'd probably call it "finger on the trigger", but the NRA wouldn't. It's perfectly in line with the NRA's Rule #2 on the page that zachlipton linked to, but it's a crazy place to have your finger at a peaceful protest.
posted by clawsoon at 3:32 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm saying it's possible to have your trigger on the finger in the common sense sense, but not have your trigger on the finger in the NRA sense. If I was at the protest and an officer did this, I'd probably call it "finger on the trigger", but the NRA wouldn't. It's perfectly in line with the NRA's Rule #2 on the page that zachlipton linked to, but it's a crazy place to have your finger at a peaceful protest.
posted by clawsoon at 3:32 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, it's also crazy to shoot a man at a traffic stop for no reason, so it's not like we can just rule anything out for that reason.
posted by ODiV at 3:42 PM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 3:42 PM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
From what I know, trained observers from the NLG know the difference between "finger on the trigger" and "finger on the trigger guard." The former is wrong and bad unless you are actually about to shoot someone, even the NRA agrees. If that is what the observers are reporting, I'd bet good money that that is what they saw. It's literally their job.
posted by rtha at 3:55 PM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by rtha at 3:55 PM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
There's an involuntary reflex that can cause your hand to clench, isn't there? I could swear that this has happened to me when I've bumped my elbow, but no luck finding it in various lists of reflexes on Wikipedia. That's what I think of when I see that Elian Gonzalez photo.
posted by XMLicious at 4:03 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 4:03 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oddly enough, I'm also less concerned about whether this officer's finger was ON or NEXT TO the trigger than I am about the fact that she was aiming an assault weapon at non-violent protesters and reporters at all, but especially at close quarters.
Listen, it's lovely to give the benefit of the doubt and appreciate nuance and all, but the police have lots and lots and lots and lots of people already contorting themselves like Olympic gymnasts to give them every bit of latitude and emphasize how inherently untrustworthy protesters, observers, police shooting victims and basically all people of color are. If anybody gets my default benefit of the doubt, it's going to be the people with the guns pointed at them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:08 PM on July 13, 2016 [36 favorites]
Listen, it's lovely to give the benefit of the doubt and appreciate nuance and all, but the police have lots and lots and lots and lots of people already contorting themselves like Olympic gymnasts to give them every bit of latitude and emphasize how inherently untrustworthy protesters, observers, police shooting victims and basically all people of color are. If anybody gets my default benefit of the doubt, it's going to be the people with the guns pointed at them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:08 PM on July 13, 2016 [36 favorites]
FelliniBlank: Oddly enough, I'm also less concerned about whether this officer's finger was ON or NEXT TO the trigger than I am about the fact that she was aiming an assault weapon at non-violent protesters and reporters at all, but especially at close quarters.
Agreed, and apologies for the derail.
posted by clawsoon at 4:12 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Agreed, and apologies for the derail.
posted by clawsoon at 4:12 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
lebron james, chris paul, carmelo anthony, and dwayne wade just opened the espys with a pretty great speech on race and the police - here it is. also don't read the twitter replies because people are awful and racist as all get-out
posted by burgerrr at 5:21 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 5:21 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
(n.b. i am a lifelong dubs fan and i wish wish wish one of them had been up there on that stage with those guys. i'm no big fan of lebron or cp3 as basketball players cuz you know, rivalries and all, but i greatly respect their commitment to activism and speaking out and it honestly makes me sad that no one from my home team was up there too)
posted by burgerrr at 5:23 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 5:23 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've always been partial to Cooper
1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.posted by mikelieman at 4:01 AM on July 14, 2016 [8 favorites]
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. ...
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. ...
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it.
The E-Snuff Of Alton Sterling And Philando Castile - "Being forcibly confronted with auto-played videos online and on televised news broadcasts and with, as one print outlet offered, a full-color, front-page photograph of a Black man murdered by those, the police, who insist they are our best hope for peace and safety and who will most likely not be found at fault for their actions by a court of law is the twenty-first century equivalent of having to endure the lynched body’s circulation through town by members of the lynch mob (as happened to teenager Jesse Washington’s corpse in Waco, Texas in 1916)."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:33 AM on July 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:33 AM on July 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
Frowner: What confuses me about the trigger thing
the man of twists and turns: It's an indication of how poorly trained they are.
zarq: And how unused they are to thinking of people as people rather than as potential targets.
FelliniBlank: I'm also less concerned about whether this officer's finger was ON or NEXT TO the trigger than I am about the fact that she was aiming an assault weapon at non-violent protesters and reporters at all, but especially at close quarters.
John Oliver talked about this almost two years ago - it's about police seeing themselves as military forces, and all who oppose them as The Enemy, not just potential targets. Instead of "Peace Officers," they're serving as an extension of Homeland Security, protecting themselves from any potential conflict through extreme use of force.
Disarm and defund police forces. No more bearcats to protect pumpkin festivals from unforeseen threats, and re-focus community budgets on helping people instead of incarcerating and assaulting them. From yesterday's NPR interview with Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi:
the man of twists and turns: It's an indication of how poorly trained they are.
zarq: And how unused they are to thinking of people as people rather than as potential targets.
FelliniBlank: I'm also less concerned about whether this officer's finger was ON or NEXT TO the trigger than I am about the fact that she was aiming an assault weapon at non-violent protesters and reporters at all, but especially at close quarters.
John Oliver talked about this almost two years ago - it's about police seeing themselves as military forces, and all who oppose them as The Enemy, not just potential targets. Instead of "Peace Officers," they're serving as an extension of Homeland Security, protecting themselves from any potential conflict through extreme use of force.
Disarm and defund police forces. No more bearcats to protect pumpkin festivals from unforeseen threats, and re-focus community budgets on helping people instead of incarcerating and assaulting them. From yesterday's NPR interview with Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi:
SHAPIRO: The last question I would like to ask you is given all of the momentum that your movement has right now, given all of the attention being paid to Black Lives Matter, on this, the third anniversary, what is one tangible thing that you would like to see this inertia lead to in the short term?posted by filthy light thief at 9:59 AM on July 14, 2016 [14 favorites]
CULLORS: Yeah. This is Patrisse. It's hard to say the one thing, but I do know that what feels most resonant at this moment is a call for defunding police departments. And the rationale behind that is in my city Los Angeles, 52 percent of the budget - of the city's budget - is going to law enforcement. And yet our communities are suffering. Our communities are living in poverty.
it's about police seeing themselves as military forces, and all who oppose them as The Enemy, not just potential targets.
They're not learning the right lessons.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:19 AM on July 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
They're not learning the right lessons.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:19 AM on July 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Tim Scott, a Republican senator from South Carolina, described in a speech on the Senate floor about being stopped by police 7 times in the past year.
posted by numaner at 10:26 AM on July 14, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by numaner at 10:26 AM on July 14, 2016 [10 favorites]
numaner: Tim Scott, a Republican senator from South Carolina, described in a speech on the Senate floor about being stopped by police 7 times in the past year.
But I feel that calling these "cracks in the foundation" lessens the scale the reality, in which one of his staffers bought a less expensive car because he was tired of being stopped for having a Chrysler looks like a gaping hole, or worse, part of the foundation itself.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:11 AM on July 14, 2016 [13 favorites]
While he is thankful he has not faced bodily harm, he said, "there is absolutely nothing more frustrating, more damaging to your soul than when you know you're following the rules and being treated like you are not."Emphasis mine - that is the essence of Black Lives Matter.
"We must find a way to fill these cracks in the very foundation of our country," he said.
The senator ended with a plea to his colleagues to "recognize that just because you do not feel the pain, the anguish of another, does not mean it does not exist."
But I feel that calling these "cracks in the foundation" lessens the scale the reality, in which one of his staffers bought a less expensive car because he was tired of being stopped for having a Chrysler looks like a gaping hole, or worse, part of the foundation itself.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:11 AM on July 14, 2016 [13 favorites]
With Prosecutors at Odds, U.S. Inquiry Into Eric Garner’s Death Drags On
In Police Violence Cases, Time Works Against Justice: While the nation is gripped by new police killings, hope quietly fades in the Eric Garner case
Two Years After Eric Garner's Death, Ramsey Orta, Who Filmed Police, Is Only One Heading to Jail
posted by homunculus at 11:31 AM on July 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
In Police Violence Cases, Time Works Against Justice: While the nation is gripped by new police killings, hope quietly fades in the Eric Garner case
Two Years After Eric Garner's Death, Ramsey Orta, Who Filmed Police, Is Only One Heading to Jail
posted by homunculus at 11:31 AM on July 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Tamir Rice Story: How to Make a Police Shooting Disappear
There was a dreary, routine trajectory from that point. The city would pay to settle the civil suit, of course. Then months would pass and memories would get foggy—Tamir? was that the kid in Cleveland?—until all that was left was a mushy insistence that no one was really to blame for a dead kid. The activists could make all the noise they wanted, but reasonable people would have to agree to disagree. “If you don’t trust the grand jury,” McGinty said, quoting a local judge, “you don’t trust your neighbors.”posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:55 AM on July 14, 2016 [13 favorites]
That is disingenuous. Grand jurors, almost without exception, follow where prosecutors lead them. And when they don’t return indictments in high-profile cases, it’s almost always because the prosecutor does not want them to. That he makes that preference known, whether explicitly or implicitly, in the secret confines of the grand-jury room makes it no less deliberate.
Innocence Is a Privilege: Black Children Are Not Allowed to Be Innocent in America
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:06 PM on July 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:06 PM on July 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
And the beat goes on: Atlanta cop who killed unarmed driver opened fire on car without knowing if suspect was inside: ‘He had no idea who was in the vehicle’
posted by Existential Dread at 12:18 PM on July 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 12:18 PM on July 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
'Classic intimidation'—Black Lives Matter activists targeted by FBI ahead of RNC
posted by homunculus at 12:27 PM on July 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 12:27 PM on July 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
Existential Dread: And the beat goes on: Atlanta cop who killed unarmed driver opened fire on car without knowing if suspect was inside: ‘He had no idea who was in the vehicle’
Previously, in New Mexico (October 2013):Cop's 'Heart Sank' on Realizing Shots Fired at Minivan Full of Kids
posted by filthy light thief at 12:42 PM on July 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
Previously, in New Mexico (October 2013):Cop's 'Heart Sank' on Realizing Shots Fired at Minivan Full of Kids
A former New Mexico state police officer who fired shots at a minivan during a chaotic traffic stop last year had no idea the vehicle was full of children and his "heart sank" when he finally realized it, he told ABC News in an exclusive interview.Minivan Cop Shooting Mom 'Thought About Trayvon Martin' When Officers Fired
Elias Montoya, 53, was terminated in December after he fired three shots at the vehicle carrying a mother and her five children ranging in ages from 6 and 16. Montoya fired the shots after a routine traffic stop evolved into an intense encounter that included a high-speed chase.
"My heart sank when they finally stopped and I was at the passenger side at that time seeing them get out at gunpoint again," he said. "I couldn't believe it that there were that many children in there."
The ordeal began when a police officer pulled Farrell over, alleging she was speeding. Farrell says when the officer walked away from the car without giving her a ticket she drove off, assuming she wasn’t getting one.October 13, 2015 - Sheriff hires officer from Taos minivan shooting
“I started pulling out slowly, like we do from any traffic stop,” she said.
That’s when the officer chased her down, trying to pull Farrell out of the vehicle as her children screamed.
For Farrell, confusion gave way to fear when the officer tried to arrest her. Her son Zeke – thinking his mother was in danger – got out of the car.
“He had his hands on her, and that wasn’t really OK with me,” Zeke said.
Moments later, backup arrived. As a shaken Farrell sped away, officer Elias Montoya fired three shots, unaware of who was in the car.
The New Mexico police officer who opened fire on a minivan full of kids has a new job in law enforcement and will be back on patrol in the coming weeks. The Taos County Sheriff’s Department has hired former State Police Officer Elias Montoya. Now the sheriff who hired him is defending his decision, saying it’s time to move forward.July 6th, 2015 - Minivan mom accepts plea deal in police shooting near Taos
...
“He is a member of my department now and I am proud to have him on board,” said Sheriff Jerry Hogrefe of the Taos Sheriff’s Department.
...
Montoya resigned from his 12-year career from State Police after the shooting as part of settlement agree with the agency. Technically, Montoya wasn’t fired.
“It did not in any way affect his commission or certification,” said Sheriff Hogrefe.
Oriana Farrell, 40, is facing charges of aggravated fleeing from a police officer, child abuse and possession of drug paraphernalia.At least no one died, this time.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:42 PM on July 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
The officers committing these assaults often have a record of moving between police departments, or applying to multiple departments before landing a job. And afterwards, if they lose their job, they often move to another police department. In fact I suspect that racist police chiefs may preferentially rehire them. So the existing situation, in which a cop can be eased out of their job but rarely fired, is no solution.
It seems to me that there's a structural failing here in that racist and unreliable cops have multiple opportunities to re-enter their profession. The problem would still exist if the USA had state-wide police forces but if there were only (!) 50 registries and if bad cops had to move interstate it would make it harder for these guys to leave their past behind.
Of course, I don't suggest that this would solve the racist policing problem (which is a good deal more fundamental than the "few bad apples" mantra); it just seems to me that there can be no solution when the re-employment of these cops demonstrates that there are few consequences to even the most egregious behavior.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:32 PM on July 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
It seems to me that there's a structural failing here in that racist and unreliable cops have multiple opportunities to re-enter their profession. The problem would still exist if the USA had state-wide police forces but if there were only (!) 50 registries and if bad cops had to move interstate it would make it harder for these guys to leave their past behind.
Of course, I don't suggest that this would solve the racist policing problem (which is a good deal more fundamental than the "few bad apples" mantra); it just seems to me that there can be no solution when the re-employment of these cops demonstrates that there are few consequences to even the most egregious behavior.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:32 PM on July 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
At least here in RI and Massachusetts, the State Police are seen as being largely incorruptible, and they take lapses very seriously. I mean, the RI Staties still regret when they raided a Narragansett Peoples tribal smoke-shop at the Governor's say so in 2003, and a guy got hurt. Protect and Serve. (RI has a population of 1.75 million people, and the second largest city in New England, with a metro area population oozing out into MA and CT that could, if it wanted to, demand at least one pro-sports franchise, ahead of Memphis and OKC.)
That said, DWB is still a thing here in RI, anecdotally from non-white friends and family. Not usually the Staties, but local PDs can be rotten through.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:39 PM on July 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
That said, DWB is still a thing here in RI, anecdotally from non-white friends and family. Not usually the Staties, but local PDs can be rotten through.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:39 PM on July 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
That said, DWB is still a thing here in RI, anecdotally from non-white friends and family. Not usually the Staties, but local PDs can be rotten through.
Or they were just curious because they've never seen a black person before.
New England is so ridiculously white it honestly creeps me out a little.
posted by Talez at 8:47 PM on July 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or they were just curious because they've never seen a black person before.
New England is so ridiculously white it honestly creeps me out a little.
posted by Talez at 8:47 PM on July 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
New England is so ridiculously white it honestly creeps me out a little.
About that...
This apparently includes Cape Verdean and Brazillian folks, and Dominicans have been here since forever as well. If they speak Spanish or Portuguese/creole, or are distantly related to same, they aren't black for some reason known only to the census.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:55 PM on July 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
About that...
This apparently includes Cape Verdean and Brazillian folks, and Dominicans have been here since forever as well. If they speak Spanish or Portuguese/creole, or are distantly related to same, they aren't black for some reason known only to the census.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:55 PM on July 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it varies state to state within New England.
Maine is definitely creepy-white, though. The homogeneity is really striking when you visit from anywhere else that's not a white-flight suburb.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:06 PM on July 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maine is definitely creepy-white, though. The homogeneity is really striking when you visit from anywhere else that's not a white-flight suburb.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:06 PM on July 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont are almost entirely (95%+) white, while Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts are "only" around 80-85% white.
Source: am from Connecticut, knew 1 black person in the first 16 years of life.
posted by Justinian at 9:40 PM on July 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Source: am from Connecticut, knew 1 black person in the first 16 years of life.
posted by Justinian at 9:40 PM on July 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
This apparently includes Cape Verdean and Brazillian folks, and Dominicans have been here since forever as well. If they speak Spanish or Portuguese/creole, or are distantly related to same, they aren't black for some reason known only to the census.
Race in the US census is based entirely on self-reporting (unlike a country where it is the census-taker's job to racially categorize the people they are surveying), though the range of choices has shifted over the years. So if you think some people are miscategorizing themselves, you'd need to ask them why, not the census.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 AM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Race in the US census is based entirely on self-reporting (unlike a country where it is the census-taker's job to racially categorize the people they are surveying), though the range of choices has shifted over the years. So if you think some people are miscategorizing themselves, you'd need to ask them why, not the census.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 AM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
Being black and on the autism spectrum: the fears of a father for his son (Story Corps).
CJ: Well, I’ve got to tell you, I have a lot of concerns for him. My son right now is 12 years old and he’s 5 foot 9”.posted by filthy light thief at 7:25 AM on July 15, 2016 [16 favorites]
AM: He’s tall.
CJ: Yeah, he’s huge. And when he gets excited, he flaps his hands really hard–this is not abnormal, this is as normal as rain for him.
AM: Right.
CJ: But my fear for him has been that somebody sees him, and they interpret his body language as something that it’s not. So even with a smile on his face he’s going to be threatening to people.
... the best thing I can do is teach him what’s socially acceptable, and what can be misperceived as a problem. I hate to have to teach him those things, and I don’t want to take his innocence away either, but in time he’ll know.
This apparently includes Cape Verdean and Brazillian folks, and Dominicans have been here since forever as well. If they speak Spanish or Portuguese/creole, or are distantly related to same, they aren't black for some reason known only to the census.
The US census classifies people as white or black or other races depending on whether they identify as white or black or other races. Here's the US census race question (#6). For the most part people's identities are based on a combination of phenotype and ancestral phenotype. See some research here and here on issues with meausing race and how people decide how to classify race for census purposes. Insofar as some Cape Verdeans, Brazillians and Dominicans identify as black (which depends in part on whether they and their parents look like what they think of as black), the census counts them as black.
For reasons better understood by Americans than by me, some people who use census data remove anyone with Spanish-speaking ethnicities from their racial category and categorize them separately and leave the other categories as "Non-Hispanic White" and "Non-Hispanic Black" "Non-Hispanic Asian" "Non-Hispanic Native" etc. However, that's not the census, that's people using census data (including the census bureau). The census measurements do not do this.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:49 AM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
The US census classifies people as white or black or other races depending on whether they identify as white or black or other races. Here's the US census race question (#6). For the most part people's identities are based on a combination of phenotype and ancestral phenotype. See some research here and here on issues with meausing race and how people decide how to classify race for census purposes. Insofar as some Cape Verdeans, Brazillians and Dominicans identify as black (which depends in part on whether they and their parents look like what they think of as black), the census counts them as black.
For reasons better understood by Americans than by me, some people who use census data remove anyone with Spanish-speaking ethnicities from their racial category and categorize them separately and leave the other categories as "Non-Hispanic White" and "Non-Hispanic Black" "Non-Hispanic Asian" "Non-Hispanic Native" etc. However, that's not the census, that's people using census data (including the census bureau). The census measurements do not do this.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:49 AM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
From Shaun King's fb page (the page shows autoloading video; CN warning for violence - nobody gets shot, so I guess we should be grateful):
posted by rtha at 9:52 AM on July 15, 2016 [37 favorites]
This video, which was just released yesterday, breaks down the outrageously racist foolishness that Black folk must deal with from police on a daily basis.What police tell us, implicitly and explicitly, is that we have to listen to them, and it never works the other way. We must obey, we must never ask questions. There is no level of compliance we can demonstrate that will ensure we will not be assaulted and subject to a charge at minimum of resisting arrest. An arrest that should never have happened. This level of compliance is especially unattainable if you are a black man or boy.
24-year-old Patrick Mumford was sitting in his own car in February, 2016 when he was confronted by three Savannah-Chatham Metropolitan Police Department Officers, who were serving a warrant FOR ANOTHER MAN, Michael Clay.
The lead officer confronts Patrick but does not believe Patrick when he truthfully identifies himself to the officer, twice. Patrick rightfully asks the officers what is the matter and to see the arrest warrant they say they are serving.
Fearful and confused, Patrick retreats into the passenger seat of his car. Within 38 seconds of his initial introduction to the officers, the lead officer is ordering Patrick to be tased for non-compliance.
It takes a violent use of force for officers to realize what we already know: they have the wrong guy.
Rather than apologize, the officers rationalize and justify their actions to horrified neighbors and even Patrick's parents. These rationalizations include the repeated false statement that the officers asked Patrick for his ID.
Patrick is arrested for obstruction. As a non-violent drug offender serving in a first-offender probation program, a pending probation violation could cost him his job, his college education, and seven years in prison: all for sitting in his own car, minding his own business, and telling the truth.
posted by rtha at 9:52 AM on July 15, 2016 [37 favorites]
The shittiest part about it is that it we (we as in, everyone) would have such a profoundly different relationship with the police if they'd just own up to it, admit the mistake, and make efforts to do better.
Had they backed up a step when they first confronted him and did what they could to ID him (like, ask to see his ID), no harm no foul. I mean, I get it, you think this guy is a criminal, you have documentation to that effect in your hand. Of course the guy claims to be someone else, he doesn't want to be arrested! They're so focused on what they might have to do to arrest him (run away, try to BS his way out, attack them, go for their guns, etc.) that they never stop to ask themselves if they might have it wrong. They should have pretty easily been able to keep thing from escalating while doing their jobs. They fucked up but even if I'm super charitable and say that they did the best they could given the situation and the recent history, they could have made things better by simply apologizing.
It's to the point now where the police can either acknowledge the problem and commit themselves to being part of the solution or they con double down and make it clear that they're part of the problem.
If we're supposed to believe that this is a problem of a small group of bad actors, every cop who claims to be a "good cop" ought to be marching right along with the rest of us (or whatever other actions can be taken to start to fix the problem). It doesn't matter what the excuses are, who is to blame, or how it came to be, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
posted by VTX at 10:26 AM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
Had they backed up a step when they first confronted him and did what they could to ID him (like, ask to see his ID), no harm no foul. I mean, I get it, you think this guy is a criminal, you have documentation to that effect in your hand. Of course the guy claims to be someone else, he doesn't want to be arrested! They're so focused on what they might have to do to arrest him (run away, try to BS his way out, attack them, go for their guns, etc.) that they never stop to ask themselves if they might have it wrong. They should have pretty easily been able to keep thing from escalating while doing their jobs. They fucked up but even if I'm super charitable and say that they did the best they could given the situation and the recent history, they could have made things better by simply apologizing.
It's to the point now where the police can either acknowledge the problem and commit themselves to being part of the solution or they con double down and make it clear that they're part of the problem.
If we're supposed to believe that this is a problem of a small group of bad actors, every cop who claims to be a "good cop" ought to be marching right along with the rest of us (or whatever other actions can be taken to start to fix the problem). It doesn't matter what the excuses are, who is to blame, or how it came to be, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
posted by VTX at 10:26 AM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
Speaking of shooting people in their cars, a few weeks ago, a black man was shot to death by local police in his car. The family said he often went to the park to clear his head and sleep in his car. "...an officer went to check out a vehicle deemed suspicious, and that officer [...] found Anderson alone and in possession of a gun. Police said the officer feared for his safety and shot into the vehicle -- killing Anderson." The gun was legally owned and Wisconsin is a concealed carry state.
Speaking of shooting people while sleeping! Two years ago, Dontre Hamilton, an unarmed black man, was shot in a downtown Milwaukee park. He had been sleeping peacefully and other officers had left him alone when called to check on him. Another officer came by, woke him up, and shot him after Hamilton supposedly fought him. (The officer was actually fired, much to the consternation of the union, but no criminal charges were brought.)
So, if you're black, don't sleep in a car or park. Or your house.
posted by AFABulous at 10:57 AM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
Speaking of shooting people while sleeping! Two years ago, Dontre Hamilton, an unarmed black man, was shot in a downtown Milwaukee park. He had been sleeping peacefully and other officers had left him alone when called to check on him. Another officer came by, woke him up, and shot him after Hamilton supposedly fought him. (The officer was actually fired, much to the consternation of the union, but no criminal charges were brought.)
So, if you're black, don't sleep in a car or park. Or your house.
posted by AFABulous at 10:57 AM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
This is a great article that breaks down ALL Philando Castile's traffic stops and charges/fines. It's completely obvious that he was punished over and over for being poor, and the fines kept him on the wrong side of the law.
posted by threeturtles at 12:39 PM on July 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by threeturtles at 12:39 PM on July 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
Oh, and when I said earlier I'd been pulled over only once in my life: I'd forgotten one. I was pulled over on my college campus for rolling a stop sign and my car inspection was out of date. The officer let me go with a warning. Does anyone believe Philando Castile would have been let off that kind of infraction?
posted by threeturtles at 12:42 PM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by threeturtles at 12:42 PM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
Based on twitter and facebook there's a huge number of people who do. *sigh*
posted by phearlez at 1:51 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 1:51 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
yeah, i already had to defriend a girl i went to high school with who decided to shit up the fb comments section of a post i made about a michelle alexander article by posting an insanely long comment explaining exactly how and why (in her mind) philando castile deserved to be shot by the cops. trying to justify the extrajudicial execution of anyone like that is seriously disgusting but people keep doing it ugh
posted by burgerrr at 2:49 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 2:49 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
The most damning part of the 52 Stops is that half of them were simply dismissed by the court. The man had a day job he was good at and and career ambitions - how many of the rest he left uncontested because it would cost more in money and time away from work to fight them?
Almost all of them, I'd wager.
(Footnote: I was once pinged with driving without proof of insurance - because I forgot to print out the new insurance card AND I took an illegal left. I wasn't ticketed for the illegal left. I took the day off, went to the court with the insurance card that showed I was covered on the date I was busted, the charges dismissed. Imagine if a cop pulls you over, for the second time this month, and ignores the fresh-off-the-printer insurance card even as he writes you up for lack of insurance... yes. That happens. DWB. )
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:39 PM on July 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
Almost all of them, I'd wager.
(Footnote: I was once pinged with driving without proof of insurance - because I forgot to print out the new insurance card AND I took an illegal left. I wasn't ticketed for the illegal left. I took the day off, went to the court with the insurance card that showed I was covered on the date I was busted, the charges dismissed. Imagine if a cop pulls you over, for the second time this month, and ignores the fresh-off-the-printer insurance card even as he writes you up for lack of insurance... yes. That happens. DWB. )
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:39 PM on July 15, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I'm a middle-aged woman of color who passes as... not in some contexts, and I drive a 2001 Prius with bird stickers all over it. I got pulled over not long ago for having expired tags; I saw the CHP car behind me with its lights going and pointed at myself and the officer was like "yes, you!" and so I found a pullout at the foot of an exit ramp. Officer approached my car on the passenger side without his hand on his sidearm and told me my tags were expired. I was like, no way! I put them....In the glove box and never put them on the license plate! I opened the glove box an lo, there was the envelope with the proper tags that I had driven back and forth from home to work for literally months. We both laughed and he waited while I cleaned the road gross off the plate and put the new sticker on and said he's done the same thing himself. He asked if I knew how to get back on the freeway from the off-ramp we were on and when I said I did, he went back to his car and lit it up to make a space for me to pull out.
Like the CHP officer who helped me not long ago when I blew a tire on the freeway, it was an entirely professional but memorably nice exchange. They should all go like that.
posted by rtha at 6:41 PM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
Like the CHP officer who helped me not long ago when I blew a tire on the freeway, it was an entirely professional but memorably nice exchange. They should all go like that.
posted by rtha at 6:41 PM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
That's how it's supposed to be. Absolutely. Entirely professional but memorably nice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:03 PM on July 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:03 PM on July 15, 2016 [6 favorites]
What one is hearing on Twitter is that a bunch of Muslim femme people (wording I assume was chosen to cover both Muslim women and people who are not women but have femme gender presentation) were singled out at a peaceful blockade-style protest and arrested. This link goes to a bail fund but has a summary of what happened.
This would not be the first time I've heard of visibly Muslim people being singled out by the police at protests.
posted by Frowner at 9:37 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
This would not be the first time I've heard of visibly Muslim people being singled out by the police at protests.
posted by Frowner at 9:37 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
When you get pulled over for something and you can't find insurance, they usually do write you a warning for whatever they pulled you over for and a ticket for no insurance, which can then be taken to the courthouse and dismissed with current insurance cards.
This was a strategy employed by ...a friend to never actually get a ticket. Worked for white people that is.
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:06 PM on July 15, 2016
This was a strategy employed by ...a friend to never actually get a ticket. Worked for white people that is.
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:06 PM on July 15, 2016
The former Atlanta cop in the shooting mentioned above has been charged with murder
posted by hydropsyche at 1:36 PM on July 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 1:36 PM on July 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Two Baton Rouge police officers dead, multiple shot, authorities say
posted by Drinky Die at 8:29 AM on July 17, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 8:29 AM on July 17, 2016
God damn it.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:32 AM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 8:32 AM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Police received a call of "suspicious person walking down Airline Highway with an assault rifle," the source said. When police arrived, the man opened fire.God dammit. With this, Tamir Rice is just going to be the tip of the iceberg.
posted by Talez at 8:40 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
God damn it.
Yup, that about covers it.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:04 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yup, that about covers it.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:04 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
MSNBC reports a fourth officer has died.
....
Three shooters involved. One shooter detained.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:17 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
....
Three shooters involved. One shooter detained.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:17 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry, to update, three officers killed. One suspect is deceased.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:29 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:29 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been really looking forward to Nate Parker's movie, Birth of a Nation, set to come out in October. It's particularly timely, especially the new poster for it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:38 AM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:38 AM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm seeing reports on Twitter that today's Baton Rouge incident started as a shootout between civilians with assault rifles, who then turned on the police when they arrived. No idea of the veracity of that story, but it seems depressingly plausible.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:39 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 9:39 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Either way, it's terrible thing and bound to worsen already tight tensions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:41 AM on July 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:41 AM on July 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
I keep thinking of the JFK quote, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." Without concrete steps to make things better, and a demonstrated empathy on the part of this countries police forces, you're going to keep seeing people snap, people who have had to deal too much with the systemic oppression of blacks in this country. People who can see no better futures for themselves, no way out of the cycles of debt, prison, and violence.
I also keep thinking of the crazy-rightwing justification for the 2nd amendment, the need for the people to be able to defend themselves against a tyrannical state.
We need better ways to move forward and improve the system than resorting to violence. We need better ways to respond to police violence than shooting back at the police.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:31 AM on July 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
I also keep thinking of the crazy-rightwing justification for the 2nd amendment, the need for the people to be able to defend themselves against a tyrannical state.
We need better ways to move forward and improve the system than resorting to violence. We need better ways to respond to police violence than shooting back at the police.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:31 AM on July 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Op-ed: Two years after Eric Garner’s death, continuing a quest for justice By Letitia James
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:54 AM on July 17, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:54 AM on July 17, 2016
I also keep thinking of the crazy-rightwing justification for the 2nd amendment, the need for the people to be able to defend themselves against a tyrannical state.
Ironically, if police shootings keep occurring, that may put more wait behind the call for gun control.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:57 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ironically, if police shootings keep occurring, that may put more wait behind the call for gun control.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:57 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's certainly not helping matters when the Baton Rouge mayor is declaring it an ambush even before the facts are in.
posted by JackFlash at 11:07 AM on July 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 11:07 AM on July 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ironically, if police shootings keep occurring, that may put more wait behind the call for gun control.
Ironically, if police shootings keep occurring, that may put more wait behind the call for gun control.
posted by cashman at 11:14 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ironically, if police shootings keep occurring, that may put more wait behind the call for gun control.
posted by cashman at 11:14 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
To be sure, any reason is considered to be a reason to wait on gun control.
posted by rhizome at 11:15 AM on July 17, 2016
posted by rhizome at 11:15 AM on July 17, 2016
UPDATE: Baton Rouge Police Department saying this shooting situation does not appear to be race related.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:57 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:57 AM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Y'all have weighting to do that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:37 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:37 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Very disconcerting to me that the president is going to be speaking about this. I don't recall him speaking about Sandra Bland, or Eric Garner, on the afternoons that they died.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:56 PM on July 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:56 PM on July 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump is positioning himself as an law and order candidate. Just speculating out of my ass, but perhaps a thing in Obama's calculation is how much some more cops dying is going to wind up the electorate in a bad way.
posted by angrycat at 12:58 PM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 12:58 PM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
If there's any truth to that, then it's quite disappointing that the long run of unarmed people of color dying doesn't seem to weigh as heavily in his electoral calculus.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on July 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on July 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Baton Rouge press conference on now.
No search for active shooter atm.
posted by futz at 1:08 PM on July 17, 2016
No search for active shooter atm.
posted by futz at 1:08 PM on July 17, 2016
it's quite disappointing that the long run of unarmed people of color dying doesn't seem to weigh as heavily in his electoral calculus
It wouldn't weight heavily in anyone's electoral calculus because pretty much anyone who would give a shit about brown people being murdered by cops is already a pretty certain Democratic vote.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:13 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It wouldn't weight heavily in anyone's electoral calculus because pretty much anyone who would give a shit about brown people being murdered by cops is already a pretty certain Democratic vote.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:13 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Apparently, Pete Williams at NBC News is saying the police are looking at members of the sovereign citizen movement as suspects.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:15 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zombieflanders at 1:15 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
fascinating that 'it's not a race thing' if the sovereign citizens are involved since they're pretty closely aligned with white supremacists.
posted by nadawi at 1:17 PM on July 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:17 PM on July 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Baton Rouge Sheriff says this is not about gun control (?)...and instead we need to come together as a people or perish as as a people.
I *think* he just said that we need god, not gun control.
posted by futz at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I *think* he just said that we need god, not gun control.
posted by futz at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
From the WSJ live blog:
-Missouri Man Suspected in the Shootings Was Killed, According to Person Briefed on Investigationposted by zombieflanders at 1:36 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
-Suspect Killed Was Affiliated With New Freedom Group, an Anti-Government Group, According to Person Briefed on Investigation
-Two Others Involved in the Shooting Were Captured Across the Mississippi River From Baton Rouge
Head Of Cleveland Police Union On Baton Rouge: Obama Has ‘Blood on His Hands’
Holy shit this is bad. He blames BLM as well. What an incendiary comment.
He asks, "how the hell did we (cops) ever become the bad guys in this country? I can't imagine on how we got here..."
and then goes on to blame the media, the president and celebrities. AND then says "that we all have to come together on this" after slamming everyone else but the police themselves.
I am stunned.
posted by futz at 1:38 PM on July 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Holy shit this is bad. He blames BLM as well. What an incendiary comment.
He asks, "how the hell did we (cops) ever become the bad guys in this country? I can't imagine on how we got here..."
and then goes on to blame the media, the president and celebrities. AND then says "that we all have to come together on this" after slamming everyone else but the police themselves.
I am stunned.
posted by futz at 1:38 PM on July 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Shooter has been identified as 19 year old Gavin Long from Missouri.
posted by Justinian at 1:40 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 1:40 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think they said he was born in 1987, though who is wrong is unclear currently.
posted by cashman at 1:42 PM on July 17, 2016
posted by cashman at 1:42 PM on July 17, 2016
Oh did they say 1987? I thought 1997. Ok, uh, 19 or 29 year old...
posted by Justinian at 1:44 PM on July 17, 2016
posted by Justinian at 1:44 PM on July 17, 2016
of course they'll blame black lives matter and reverse racism for a (likely white supremacist) anti government group hunting them. and then they'll pivot to 'mentally ill lone wolves.'
posted by nadawi at 1:45 PM on July 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:45 PM on July 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
lots of people are passing around some social media accounts of someone who doesn't seem to be the guy -be careful when sharing any of that sort of thing until more details come in.
posted by nadawi at 1:49 PM on July 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:49 PM on July 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
of course they'll blame black lives matter and reverse racism for a (likely white supremacist) anti government group hunting them. and then they'll pivot to 'mentally ill lone wolves.'I have no idea how accurate their information is -- reporting is sometimes pretty shaky at this point -- but this CBS report identifies the shooter as black, which (if true) makes this unlikely to be the work of white supremacists. One hopes that they wouldn't report the shooter's race without absolute certainty, since it is potentially inflammatory either way, but I'm not sure that I trust our media to be responsible at a time like this.
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:56 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
yep, i saw that. sorry for my own jump - all the sovereign citizens i know in missouri are white and super duper racist. i didn't realize that there were so many black sovereign citizens.
posted by nadawi at 2:09 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 2:09 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess there's reasons for both groups to dispute the legitimacy of the US Government.
posted by mikelieman at 2:13 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mikelieman at 2:13 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Two weeks before he was killed on the job, Baton Rouge police officer Montrell Jackson wrote on Facebook what it was like to be black and a cop.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:02 PM on July 17, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:02 PM on July 17, 2016
futz: Holy shit this is bad. He blames BLM as well. What an incendiary comment.
Placing the blame on Obama and Black Lives Matter is already a standard right-wing talking point that's accepted as obvious to them. You'll be hearing it a lot more.
More details on the shooter. He was ex-military, like the Dallas shooter, which is an interesting coincidence.
posted by clawsoon at 4:22 PM on July 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Placing the blame on Obama and Black Lives Matter is already a standard right-wing talking point that's accepted as obvious to them. You'll be hearing it a lot more.
More details on the shooter. He was ex-military, like the Dallas shooter, which is an interesting coincidence.
posted by clawsoon at 4:22 PM on July 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Placing the blame on Obama and Black Lives Matter is already a standard right-wing talking point that's accepted as obvious to them. You'll be hearing it a lot more.
Yup, fully aware of that. I just thought it was incredibly irresponsible to say so on television a day before the Repub Convention.
posted by futz at 4:28 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yup, fully aware of that. I just thought it was incredibly irresponsible to say so on television a day before the Repub Convention.
posted by futz at 4:28 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
You spend years having your innate resistance to killing broken down and deploying lethal force for political ends, then you get home to a community that's facing an existential threat just like the one you were told you were fighting overseas...
posted by tobascodagama at 4:36 PM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 4:36 PM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean, obviously I don't condone it. But I get it.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:40 PM on July 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 4:40 PM on July 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Cosmo Setepenra" looks like an anagram to me. Maybe a Latin one? I see the word "semper" in there, which is part of the Marines' slogan. Anyone else interested in taking a look?
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:57 PM on July 17, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:57 PM on July 17, 2016
Setepenra is the youngest daughter of Egypt's Nefertiti but that seems like a dubious connection.
posted by Justinian at 8:06 PM on July 17, 2016
posted by Justinian at 8:06 PM on July 17, 2016
Possibly just something as simple as him choosing a name for himself; in any case, I'm not sure that speculating about deeper meanings of his handle is going to be any more insightful than speculating about any of ours.
posted by Westringia F. at 8:15 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Westringia F. at 8:15 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
He calls himself "Cosmo" and uses the phrase "yada yada yada" several times in his last video.
Also, it looks like he probably spent a bundle on his books and websites. That's all I have.
posted by raysmj at 8:59 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, it looks like he probably spent a bundle on his books and websites. That's all I have.
posted by raysmj at 8:59 PM on July 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Apparently, Pete Williams at NBC News is saying the police are looking at members of the sovereign citizen movement as suspects.
The LA shooter was definitely a moon lawyer.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:35 PM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
The LA shooter was definitely a moon lawyer.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:35 PM on July 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
You spend years having your innate resistance to killing broken down and deploying lethal force for political ends, then you get home to a community that's facing an existential threat just like the one you were told you were fighting overseas...
NOW can we properly fund the VA's mental health programs????
posted by mikelieman at 1:53 AM on July 18, 2016 [14 favorites]
NOW can we properly fund the VA's mental health programs????
posted by mikelieman at 1:53 AM on July 18, 2016 [14 favorites]
NOW can we properly fund the VA's mental health programs????
I hope so but probably not.
Also can you imagine the shit show if people started talking about keeping guns away from veterans?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:03 PM on July 18, 2016
I hope so but probably not.
Also can you imagine the shit show if people started talking about keeping guns away from veterans?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:03 PM on July 18, 2016
The Baton Rouge Shooter’s Connection To The Bizarre ‘Sovereign Citizens’ Movement, Explained
posted by homunculus at 1:21 PM on July 18, 2016
posted by homunculus at 1:21 PM on July 18, 2016
I feel like it should be pointed out that both "Cosmo" and "yada yada" have Seinfeld relevance.
posted by rhizome at 1:51 PM on July 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 1:51 PM on July 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
What Guns Did Gavin Long Use in Baton Rouge Shooting?
posted by homunculus at 5:22 PM on July 18, 2016
posted by homunculus at 5:22 PM on July 18, 2016
What Guns Did Gavin Long Use in Baton Rouge Shooting?
Semi-auto long rifles. One in a custom bullpup configuration, ideal for close-quarters shooting. Of cops and civilians. It looks like a toy, doesn't it? It's marketed like a toy, but for grown-ups. It's sold in parts that you put together like a model airplane.
See the big, black curved thing? It holds the ammo. It holds 30 rounds of 5.56×45mm NATO spec long-rifle ammunition, designed to wound and maim in a shooting war in the fields and forests of Europe. Killing is just the icing on the cake. Someone who has a rifle like that can swap the big, black curved thing out for another magazine with another thirty rounds of maim-first-kill-if-we're-lucky ammo quicker than you read this sentence.
If you're not horrified at reading this, you subscribe to gun blogs and gun magazines. This shit is doing what it was designed to do, reviewed by experts to ensure it's as good as advertised, available over-the-counter. Because we might need to kill our fellow Americans for political reasons.
It. Needs. To. Stop.
It needed to stop a long, long time back.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:24 PM on July 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
Semi-auto long rifles. One in a custom bullpup configuration, ideal for close-quarters shooting. Of cops and civilians. It looks like a toy, doesn't it? It's marketed like a toy, but for grown-ups. It's sold in parts that you put together like a model airplane.
See the big, black curved thing? It holds the ammo. It holds 30 rounds of 5.56×45mm NATO spec long-rifle ammunition, designed to wound and maim in a shooting war in the fields and forests of Europe. Killing is just the icing on the cake. Someone who has a rifle like that can swap the big, black curved thing out for another magazine with another thirty rounds of maim-first-kill-if-we're-lucky ammo quicker than you read this sentence.
If you're not horrified at reading this, you subscribe to gun blogs and gun magazines. This shit is doing what it was designed to do, reviewed by experts to ensure it's as good as advertised, available over-the-counter. Because we might need to kill our fellow Americans for political reasons.
It. Needs. To. Stop.
It needed to stop a long, long time back.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:24 PM on July 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
"Cosmo Setepenra" looks like an anagram to me. Maybe a Latin one? I see the word "semper" in there, which is part of the Marines' slogan. Anyone else interested in taking a look?
He ran in some Afrocentric circles where drawing on Egyptian culture is pretty common. You often see guys like that called Hoteps. I could have sworn we've had a post about Hotep Twitter around here before, but I can't find it, so I guess not. In any case, he was definitely trying to connect himself to pharaonic Egypt in the same way that many nationalists reach out to an ancient and glorious past.
posted by Copronymus at 11:13 PM on July 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
He ran in some Afrocentric circles where drawing on Egyptian culture is pretty common. You often see guys like that called Hoteps. I could have sworn we've had a post about Hotep Twitter around here before, but I can't find it, so I guess not. In any case, he was definitely trying to connect himself to pharaonic Egypt in the same way that many nationalists reach out to an ancient and glorious past.
posted by Copronymus at 11:13 PM on July 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hope this really does lead to more communication and a better relationship between police and the communities they serve: Police and BLM hold a cookout together
posted by dysh at 7:54 AM on July 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by dysh at 7:54 AM on July 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't like the phrasing of that article that says that police had a cookout with "potential protestors" instead of "neighborhood children"
posted by zutalors! at 8:56 AM on July 19, 2016
posted by zutalors! at 8:56 AM on July 19, 2016
zutalors!, I couldn't find the phrasing you are referring to?
posted by dysh at 9:50 AM on July 19, 2016
posted by dysh at 9:50 AM on July 19, 2016
Taking place instead of a protest that had been planned for Sunday, the cookout came about after Wichita Police Chief Gordon Ramsay had a lengthy meeting with activist A.J. Bohannon and other members of the local Black Lives Matter movement.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:01 AM on July 19, 2016
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:01 AM on July 19, 2016
...news about police hanging out and dancing with would-be protesters had risen above the feud between Taylor Swift and Kim Kardashian...
To be fair, the folks at the cookout with the police were planning on staging a protest instead.
Taking place instead of a protest that had been planned for Sunday, the cookout came about after Wichita Police Chief Gordon Ramsay had a lengthy meeting with activist A.J. Bohannon and other members of the local Black Lives Matter movement.
So they "would be" protesters if they hadn't come to the cookout instead. Technically accurate but not the best phrasing given the context.
posted by VTX at 10:03 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
To be fair, the folks at the cookout with the police were planning on staging a protest instead.
Taking place instead of a protest that had been planned for Sunday, the cookout came about after Wichita Police Chief Gordon Ramsay had a lengthy meeting with activist A.J. Bohannon and other members of the local Black Lives Matter movement.
So they "would be" protesters if they hadn't come to the cookout instead. Technically accurate but not the best phrasing given the context.
posted by VTX at 10:03 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
It also just characterizes the possible protests as inherently negative and violent - "clashes" etc. I get that it's an overall positive thing, though.
Apparently social media got all over one black kid for not smiling in the photos with cops as well.
posted by zutalors! at 10:07 AM on July 19, 2016
Apparently social media got all over one black kid for not smiling in the photos with cops as well.
posted by zutalors! at 10:07 AM on July 19, 2016
It also just characterizes the possible protests as inherently negative and violent - "clashes" etc.
I think it's still equitable though because at least to me, that sentence could be referring either to "protesters" or "police". I imagine some people in those photos aren't smiling for the same reason (or they just didn't smile quick enough, they didn't notice the camera in time, etc.).
posted by VTX at 10:28 AM on July 19, 2016
I think it's still equitable though because at least to me, that sentence could be referring either to "protesters" or "police". I imagine some people in those photos aren't smiling for the same reason (or they just didn't smile quick enough, they didn't notice the camera in time, etc.).
posted by VTX at 10:28 AM on July 19, 2016
Third Officer Acquitted in Freddie Gray Death, But Activists Convicted for Protesting Killing
posted by homunculus at 12:35 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 12:35 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Republican Party Is Pushing Trump Toward a War With Black Lives Matter
posted by homunculus at 7:23 PM on July 19, 2016
posted by homunculus at 7:23 PM on July 19, 2016
Charles Kinsey is a goddamn hero. There is a man who does his job and does it well.
In this case, it's to protect an autistic man playing with a toy truck from the police, who approached him with goddamn infantry long-arms aimed and at the ready, safeties off, fingers on the trigger. For playing with a toy truck in the street. Where in the hell have we gone so wrong as a nation where this even had a remote chance of happening?
A swift recovery to you, sir. You are needed and appreciated.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:18 PM on July 20, 2016 [13 favorites]
In this case, it's to protect an autistic man playing with a toy truck from the police, who approached him with goddamn infantry long-arms aimed and at the ready, safeties off, fingers on the trigger. For playing with a toy truck in the street. Where in the hell have we gone so wrong as a nation where this even had a remote chance of happening?
A swift recovery to you, sir. You are needed and appreciated.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:18 PM on July 20, 2016 [13 favorites]
"Cuevas said officers received a 911 call indicating a man was in the street with a gun threatening to kill himself."
WTF. Is there some kind of hidden webboard where people give each other "If you get mugged, don't yell 'help', yell 'fire'" advice about the police never coming so you have to call 911 and lie? That's the only explanation that isn't that the police are straight-up lying.
Someone's lying.
posted by rhizome at 8:30 PM on July 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
WTF. Is there some kind of hidden webboard where people give each other "If you get mugged, don't yell 'help', yell 'fire'" advice about the police never coming so you have to call 911 and lie? That's the only explanation that isn't that the police are straight-up lying.
Someone's lying.
posted by rhizome at 8:30 PM on July 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Cuevas said officers received a 911 call indicating a man was in the street with a gun threatening to kill himself."
Well, 911 calls are generally recorded. Should be easy enough to prove. If it's true.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:56 PM on July 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, 911 calls are generally recorded. Should be easy enough to prove. If it's true.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:56 PM on July 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
“Sir, there’s no need for firearms,” Kinsey told the news station he said to police before he was shot. “It was so surprising. It was like a mosquito bite.”
Kinsey said when he asked the officer why he fired his weapon, the cop responded, “I don’t know.”
WTF
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:57 PM on July 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Kinsey said when he asked the officer why he fired his weapon, the cop responded, “I don’t know.”
WTF
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:57 PM on July 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
If there's anyone who should never touch a firearm again ( ending his career in law enforcement ), it's this cop who proved that he just doesn't have what it takes to make the hard decisions when it counts, resulting in the injury of an innocent man.
It's your mess, Police. Clean it the fuck up.
posted by mikelieman at 11:34 PM on July 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's your mess, Police. Clean it the fuck up.
posted by mikelieman at 11:34 PM on July 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, consider how internalized The Talk is when you respectfully ask, "SIR, why did you shoot me?"
Still didn't save him.
posted by mikelieman at 11:35 PM on July 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Still didn't save him.
posted by mikelieman at 11:35 PM on July 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
NYPD cops in Columbus Circle standoff with man who earlier threw hoax bomb into police van
posted by Drinky Die at 3:49 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by Drinky Die at 3:49 AM on July 21, 2016
In a prepared statement, North Miami police spokeswoman Natalie Buissereth said “arriving officers attempted to negotiate with the two men on the scene, one of whom was later identified as suffering from autism... At some point during the on-scene negotiation, one of the responding officers discharged his weapon.”The passive voice is a hell of a thing.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:54 AM on July 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not passive voice, just weasel wording
posted by phearlez at 6:58 AM on July 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 6:58 AM on July 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oops, yeah.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:59 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by ChuraChura at 6:59 AM on July 21, 2016
this cop who proved that he just doesn't have what it takes to make the hard decisions when it counts,
Is 'what it takes' something that you're born with, or something you can learn? Police, I'm sure, would argue* that it's train-able, and therefore he just needs refresher training. Back on the job.
On the other hand, I would argue that if you say it's a trained attribute, then your training program failed to accurately evaluate success or failure of that training. And therefore can't be trusted until it's fixed. Not only should this guy not touch a firearm again, nobody else trained the same way should either.
* if they even agree the guy did something wrong, which I find unlikely based on similar incidents in the past.
posted by ctmf at 11:48 AM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is 'what it takes' something that you're born with, or something you can learn? Police, I'm sure, would argue* that it's train-able, and therefore he just needs refresher training. Back on the job.
On the other hand, I would argue that if you say it's a trained attribute, then your training program failed to accurately evaluate success or failure of that training. And therefore can't be trusted until it's fixed. Not only should this guy not touch a firearm again, nobody else trained the same way should either.
* if they even agree the guy did something wrong, which I find unlikely based on similar incidents in the past.
posted by ctmf at 11:48 AM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is 'what it takes' something that you're born with, or something you can learn?
I don't know, but my number two police reform (behind issuing them revolvers again to reduce the number of rounds they can "discharge" indiscriminately) would be to require a year of service in a helping profession (group home, special ed, etc) before they were allowed into the academy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:57 PM on July 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't know, but my number two police reform (behind issuing them revolvers again to reduce the number of rounds they can "discharge" indiscriminately) would be to require a year of service in a helping profession (group home, special ed, etc) before they were allowed into the academy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:57 PM on July 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Therapist with hands up shot by police while helping autistic patient
Black man shot by Miami police was laying on the ground with his arms up
posted by homunculus at 1:54 PM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Black man shot by Miami police was laying on the ground with his arms up
posted by homunculus at 1:54 PM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
As police aim their assault rifles at the men in the street, Kinsey tries to explain to them that they pose no threat.
"All he has is a toy truck in his hand. A toy truck," Kinsey can be heard saying in the video. "I am a behavioral therapist at a group home.
"That's all it is," he says, referring to the toy truck. "That's all it is. There is no need for guns."
"Let me see your hands," a cop can be heard shouting at the autistic man. "Get on the ground. Get on the ground."
The autistic man then begins to make noises, apparently playing with his toy.
"Rinaldo, please be still," Kinsey tells his patient. "Sit down, Rinaldo. Lay on your stomach."
The video then cuts out.
Seconds later, one of the officers fired his weapon three times. One of the bullets struck Kinsey near his right knee, exiting his upper thigh.
"My life flashed in front of me," he told WSVN, adding that his first thought was of his family.
His second thought was one of confusion.
"When he shot me, it was so surprising," he said. "It was like a mosquito bite, and when it hit me, I'm like, 'I still got my hands in the air, and I said, 'No, I just got shot!'"
"Sir, why did you shoot me?" Kinsey recalled asking the officer.
"He said, 'I don't know.'"
A second video captures the moments after the shooting, as officers placed the injured Kinsey and the autistic man into handcuffs.
"He was like 'Please don't shoot me,'" a bystander can be heard saying on the video. "Why they shot the black boy and not the fat boy?"
"Because the things with the blacks," another man says.
"I don't know who's guilty," adds what sounds like a woman's voice.
It was the officers' reaction after the shooting that upset Kinsey and Napoleon the most.
"They flipped me over, and I'm faced down in the ground, with cuffs on, waiting on the rescue squad to come," Kinsey told WSVN. "I'd say about 20, about 20 minutes it took the rescue squad to get there. And I was like, bleeding - I mean bleeding and I was like, 'Wow.'"
"Right now, I am just grateful that he is alive, and he is able to tell his story," his wife, Joyce, told the TV station.
posted by Frowner at 2:01 PM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
The video then cuts out.
Someone needs to fucking hang for this. Scratch that. Someones, and they need to go a couple of steps up the ladder.
posted by Etrigan at 2:12 PM on July 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Someone needs to fucking hang for this. Scratch that. Someones, and they need to go a couple of steps up the ladder.
posted by Etrigan at 2:12 PM on July 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think it is unreasonable at all to demand that any cop involved with editing, interfering with, or in any other way preventing a full record from being made be instantly fired without any hope of ever being hired as a cop again.
If you're in a situation that you know is going bad and your first instinct is to keep it from being recorded rather than fixing the situation then you are simply a bad person and shouldn't be a cop.
The whole situation is horrifying. And the reaction of police to the people they shoot and don't kill is even worse. Who the hell thinks "huh, I just fucked up and shot someone who was no threat, better handcuff them and arrest them?" What sort of mind is capable of that? And how do we keep getting so many cops who think that way?
posted by sotonohito at 2:25 PM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you're in a situation that you know is going bad and your first instinct is to keep it from being recorded rather than fixing the situation then you are simply a bad person and shouldn't be a cop.
The whole situation is horrifying. And the reaction of police to the people they shoot and don't kill is even worse. Who the hell thinks "huh, I just fucked up and shot someone who was no threat, better handcuff them and arrest them?" What sort of mind is capable of that? And how do we keep getting so many cops who think that way?
posted by sotonohito at 2:25 PM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
somehow this is the police's explanation, despite the fact that the cop told kinsey he didn't know why he shot him and then they handcuffed kinsey after he was shot. uh ok sure
posted by burgerrr at 2:56 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by burgerrr at 2:56 PM on July 21, 2016
The police union explanation
posted by rhizome at 3:04 PM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 3:04 PM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
And there's another fucking thing -- police unions need to be inward-facing except when speaking collectively, and "Everybody thinks this one guy had a clean shoot" doesn't count.
posted by Etrigan at 3:42 PM on July 21, 2016
posted by Etrigan at 3:42 PM on July 21, 2016
So the pig wasn't aiming for the guy lying on the ground with his hands in the air, he was aiming for the heavily autistic guy playing with a toy truck, and he can't fucking aim. Great!
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:13 PM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:13 PM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you're in a situation that you know is going bad and your first instinct is to keep it from being recorded rather than fixing the situation then you are simply a bad person and shouldn't be a cop.
The computers that bank tellers and branch bankers user log everything. The internal fraud department can watch where they moved their mouse, what keys they pressed and for how long. That's in addition to the cameras all over. The vast majority of the time that someone is investigated the logging proves their innocence.
If a cop believes that they are doing their job correctly, they should make sure that the video keeps rolling.
posted by VTX at 4:38 PM on July 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
The computers that bank tellers and branch bankers user log everything. The internal fraud department can watch where they moved their mouse, what keys they pressed and for how long. That's in addition to the cameras all over. The vast majority of the time that someone is investigated the logging proves their innocence.
If a cop believes that they are doing their job correctly, they should make sure that the video keeps rolling.
posted by VTX at 4:38 PM on July 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
So the pig wasn't aiming for the guy lying on the ground with his hands in the air, he was aiming for the heavily autistic guy playing with a toy truck, and he can't fucking aim. Great!
Also, when he realized he'd shot an innocent man his first instinct was to handcuff the guy and let him bleed out on the street.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:41 PM on July 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
Also, when he realized he'd shot an innocent man his first instinct was to handcuff the guy and let him bleed out on the street.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:41 PM on July 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
If everyone involved here at the scene had gotten together ahead of time and said, "How can we stage a shooting so egregious that nobody could ever possibly defend it?" they couldn't have done much better than this. But the police are defending it anyway.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:57 PM on July 21, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 5:57 PM on July 21, 2016 [21 favorites]
With the excuse that they merely meant to murder the autistic man playing with his toy truck, not his black therapist!
America is so fucked up.
posted by tavella at 6:19 PM on July 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
America is so fucked up.
posted by tavella at 6:19 PM on July 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Is this wake never going to end?
posted by notyou at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by notyou at 6:40 PM on July 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
police unions need to be inward-facing except when speaking collectively
They are speaking collectively, which is to say authoritatively. They say the things that are politically dangerous to elected or appointed police brass, but they are two arms of the same gorilla. Brass represents the image of law enforcement, the union represents the esprit d'corps, the community sense of what policing "is." Organizational standards are set from the top, and setting themselves apart from the greater population serves political ends, such as determining who is culpable for homicide.
posted by rhizome at 9:01 PM on July 21, 2016
They are speaking collectively, which is to say authoritatively. They say the things that are politically dangerous to elected or appointed police brass, but they are two arms of the same gorilla. Brass represents the image of law enforcement, the union represents the esprit d'corps, the community sense of what policing "is." Organizational standards are set from the top, and setting themselves apart from the greater population serves political ends, such as determining who is culpable for homicide.
posted by rhizome at 9:01 PM on July 21, 2016
Atlanta police shooting of unarmed black man leads to rare murder charge
Just weeks before residents of Atlanta shut down their own streets over the police shooting deaths of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile in other parts of the country, Deravis Caine Rogers was shot dead by police in their own Georgia city.
He was African American, unarmed, and provided “no provocation” for the shooting, according to police.
His case didn’t attract the attention that other police shootings caught on cellphone videos have. But in a rare development, the officer who fired the gun, James Burns, has already been charged with murder and fired.
It is the first time in six years that a district attorney in Georgia has charged an officer without the officer first appearing before a grand jury for indictment.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:15 AM on July 22, 2016 [20 favorites]
Just weeks before residents of Atlanta shut down their own streets over the police shooting deaths of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile in other parts of the country, Deravis Caine Rogers was shot dead by police in their own Georgia city.
He was African American, unarmed, and provided “no provocation” for the shooting, according to police.
His case didn’t attract the attention that other police shootings caught on cellphone videos have. But in a rare development, the officer who fired the gun, James Burns, has already been charged with murder and fired.
It is the first time in six years that a district attorney in Georgia has charged an officer without the officer first appearing before a grand jury for indictment.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:15 AM on July 22, 2016 [20 favorites]
Good, it's about time.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:15 PM on July 22, 2016
posted by tobascodagama at 1:15 PM on July 22, 2016
North Miami Cop Suspended for Giving "Conflicting" Statements in Charles Kinsey Shooting
Four days after Charles Kinsey was shot in North Miami, police officials have identified the cop who shot him. Jonathan Aledda, a SWAT team member with four years on the job, fired the shot that hit Kinsey, a black behavioral technician who was unarmed and trying to assist an autistic man.
Police also announced that another, high-ranking officer, Commander Emile Hollant, had been suspended without pay after he gave "conflicting" statements to investigators about the shooting.
The city declined to say specifically what statements Hollant had made, citing the information as part of an "ongoing investigation."
"This will not be tolerated," Spring said of Hollant's changing testimony.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:11 PM on July 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
Four days after Charles Kinsey was shot in North Miami, police officials have identified the cop who shot him. Jonathan Aledda, a SWAT team member with four years on the job, fired the shot that hit Kinsey, a black behavioral technician who was unarmed and trying to assist an autistic man.
Police also announced that another, high-ranking officer, Commander Emile Hollant, had been suspended without pay after he gave "conflicting" statements to investigators about the shooting.
The city declined to say specifically what statements Hollant had made, citing the information as part of an "ongoing investigation."
"This will not be tolerated," Spring said of Hollant's changing testimony.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:11 PM on July 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
The shooter was a four-year SWAT member and couldn't hit his target at basically point-blank range for a rifle? Lucky for the autistic patient that North Miami's weapons experts are incompetent fuckups, eh?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:15 PM on July 22, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:15 PM on July 22, 2016 [9 favorites]
A SWAT officer? That would imply specialized training in high risk situations, threat assessment, and marksmanship, wouldn't it?
Good to see that training paid off. /hamburger
posted by nubs at 6:20 PM on July 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
Good to see that training paid off. /hamburger
posted by nubs at 6:20 PM on July 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, if we're serious about demilitarizing the police, getting rid of SWAT teams is a good place to start.
posted by mikelieman at 10:57 PM on July 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 10:57 PM on July 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Tyisha Fernandes: Man fights to work after sharing Alton Sterling shooting video
Just 24 hours after Christopher LeDay posted video of Alton Sterling being shot and killed by Baton Rouge police officers, police arrested LeDay where he works.posted by zombieflanders at 6:53 AM on July 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
After being arrested at Dobbins Air Force Base in Marietta, LeDay was told he was going to jail for assault and battery charges.
Both LeDay and Simmons say those criminal charges never existed.
"They never showed a warrant for an assault to my client, in fact my client was held in DeKalb County Jail for at least 26 hours and they never produced a warrant," Simmons said.
Simons told Channel 2 Action News when no one could come up with a warrant, she was told her client was being held for "unresolved traffic tickets," LeDay paid those citations before leaving DeKalb County Jail.
LeDay tried to go back to work at Dobbins, but officials at the gate told him he still had security clearance issues.
The Washitaw sovereign citizens: where the Baton Rouge gunman found a home
posted by XMLicious at 7:56 AM on July 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 7:56 AM on July 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why a black man shot by Chicago police believes his case may be a sign of change
On Thursday, the city’s independent police review authority (IPRA) ruled that officers were unjustified in shooting Golatte. Their investigation contradicted officers’ contention that they shot him in self-defense, believing that Golatte was trying to run them over with his SUV....
In December, mayor Rahm Emanuel replaced the head of the oversight board with former federal prosecutor Sharon Fairley. Since Fairley took over, IPRA has found three shootings by police unjustified, compared to finding only two shootings unjustified between 2007 and the end of 2015.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:33 AM on July 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
On Thursday, the city’s independent police review authority (IPRA) ruled that officers were unjustified in shooting Golatte. Their investigation contradicted officers’ contention that they shot him in self-defense, believing that Golatte was trying to run them over with his SUV....
In December, mayor Rahm Emanuel replaced the head of the oversight board with former federal prosecutor Sharon Fairley. Since Fairley took over, IPRA has found three shootings by police unjustified, compared to finding only two shootings unjustified between 2007 and the end of 2015.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:33 AM on July 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
'Excessive arrest' of minorities – not police violence – explain deaths: study
A new study on use of force by US police has found that, while black, Native and Latino Americans are more likely to be stopped, searched and arrested by police, race does not affect the risk of injury or death in a police encounter....
Miller discovered that, in line with the Guardian’s own findings, black men are disproportionately killed by police. But his research suggests that the reason for this increased risk is the greater number of stops and arrests by police, what is known as “excess exposure”.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:03 AM on July 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
A new study on use of force by US police has found that, while black, Native and Latino Americans are more likely to be stopped, searched and arrested by police, race does not affect the risk of injury or death in a police encounter....
Miller discovered that, in line with the Guardian’s own findings, black men are disproportionately killed by police. But his research suggests that the reason for this increased risk is the greater number of stops and arrests by police, what is known as “excess exposure”.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:03 AM on July 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, the cops (possibly because everyone else, including Unicorn Riot, is paying attention to the DNC) chose today to break up the occupation at the Governor's Mansion and arrest 46 people, plus (like in LA) follow some onto private property and threaten to arrest them over the objections of the actual property owner. For this we have Democratic governor?
Because of course god forbid that people shouldn't just let it go when they shoot a completely innocent school cafeteria manager in front of his partner and child.
posted by Frowner at 6:03 PM on July 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Because of course god forbid that people shouldn't just let it go when they shoot a completely innocent school cafeteria manager in front of his partner and child.
posted by Frowner at 6:03 PM on July 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
In a climate of Black Lives Matter protests and the growing white backlash, some African Americans feel the answer is not gun control but to arm themselves.
He sees the White Lives Matter protest as just a small part of the growing backlash to a renewed movement for black rights. “Before it was just the police. But now these guys, these racists, have deputised themselves as the police’s protectors, as if the police need any more fucking protection. It’s chaotic, you can’t let your guard down at all.”
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:39 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
He sees the White Lives Matter protest as just a small part of the growing backlash to a renewed movement for black rights. “Before it was just the police. But now these guys, these racists, have deputised themselves as the police’s protectors, as if the police need any more fucking protection. It’s chaotic, you can’t let your guard down at all.”
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:39 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Baltimore Goddam
Remaining charges dropped against police officers in Freddie Gray case
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:30 AM on July 27, 2016
Remaining charges dropped against police officers in Freddie Gray case
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:30 AM on July 27, 2016
Marilyn Mosby is speaking now about reluctantly dropping the case.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:10 AM on July 27, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:10 AM on July 27, 2016
CNN has video of Mosby's presser here (2nd one)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:25 AM on July 27, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:25 AM on July 27, 2016
I used to believe, even in my 20's, that America had a system of criminal justice. I suppose that was part of my white privilege.
I used to think I understood and had come to expect just how incredibly unjust and clearly corrupt and devoted to white supremacy our courts were.
And I find that I'm still possessed of enough naive faith in the system, surely part of my white privilege, that I'm actually shocked by it when the courts allow murderous cops back out, doubtless to rejoin the police force and kill again. When I'm reminded that black men are, to the courts, not merely worthless, but that to America black men have negative value. That to America the killing of a black man is not a crime, but a public service, a good deed.
I am ashamed that for so long I was so blind to what my country really was, and I'm saddened that what I thought was an appropriate level of cynicism has turned out to be nothing but sheer faith in the system naivete.
How black people can go through their daily lives and not punch every white person they meet is a mystery to me.
posted by sotonohito at 2:03 PM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I used to think I understood and had come to expect just how incredibly unjust and clearly corrupt and devoted to white supremacy our courts were.
And I find that I'm still possessed of enough naive faith in the system, surely part of my white privilege, that I'm actually shocked by it when the courts allow murderous cops back out, doubtless to rejoin the police force and kill again. When I'm reminded that black men are, to the courts, not merely worthless, but that to America black men have negative value. That to America the killing of a black man is not a crime, but a public service, a good deed.
I am ashamed that for so long I was so blind to what my country really was, and I'm saddened that what I thought was an appropriate level of cynicism has turned out to be nothing but sheer faith in the system naivete.
How black people can go through their daily lives and not punch every white person they meet is a mystery to me.
posted by sotonohito at 2:03 PM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by rtha at 6:58 PM on July 6, 2016 [67 favorites]