"We will all need each other in the days ahead."

May 3, 2017 6:58 AM

In January 2017, the United States Marine Corps assigned its first infantrywomen to line battalions. Later that month, Marine veteran and reporter Thomas Brennan asked USMC HQ about a Facebook group named "Marines United", which included "hundreds — possibly thousands — of naked photographs of female service members and veterans." The Marines United scandal triggered a wide-ranging NCIS investigation, official guidance that outlined both resources for affected personnel and PR tips for commanders (10-page PDF), and a personal response from the four-star Commandant of the Marine Corps. Marine veterans Jeannette Haynie and Kyleanne Hunter argue that The Marines United scandal should be seen as a national security issue.
posted by Etrigan (29 comments total)

This makes me want to cry. What the FUCK is wrong with these people.
posted by widdershins at 7:06 AM on May 3, 2017 [10 favorites]

Statements are nice and all, but where are the dishonorable discharges? Evidently it needs to be made clear to some people that there will be life-changing consequences.
posted by thelonius at 7:11 AM on May 3, 2017 [48 favorites]

Evidently it needs to be made clear to some people that there will be life-changing consequences.

I think you've answered your own question, here: Despite any lip-service, people believe deep down that the life-changing consequences should be faced by the women, because this wouldn't have happened if they didn't try to be in places they don't belong.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:15 AM on May 3, 2017 [42 favorites]

And, also, honestly, abuse and exploitation of women is to be expected no matter what we do. That's what we're for. So why take "extraordinary" measures to punish something completely ordinary? Boys will be boys.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:17 AM on May 3, 2017 [12 favorites]

This makes me want to cry. What the FUCK is wrong with these people.

There are aspects of military culture that are pretty fucked up. Marines tend to have those aspects ramped up to 11.

There's lots of folks who feel that their military is under threat from the changing role of women in the military. There's some of that covered here. Those folks act out, and do so aggressively at times.

Lots of monsters under the bed. At least this one is getting a light shined on it.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 AM on May 3, 2017 [2 favorites]

Statements are nice and all, but where are the dishonorable discharges?

Just for the record, trying to get someone out of the U.S. military, if that person does not want to go (and I have zero doubt that they all think they're good Marines and will fight any such discharge) will always take more than three months. The glacial pace of military justice has its good features (sometimes, Private Snuffy just started on the wrong foot and will benefit from counseling and training) as well as its bad features.

Some people will doubtless skate on this, but don't take a lack of knee-jerk action to be indicative that it's being ignored.
posted by Etrigan at 7:22 AM on May 3, 2017 [18 favorites]

And, also, honestly, abuse and exploitation of women is to be expected no matter what we do. That's what we're for.

Can't really tell if this is /hamburger or not. If it is, it's shitty hamburger, if it isn't, it's demonstrably not true.

While abuse and exploitation of women does happen (and far too often), it should neither be expected nor in any way tolerated. It should only be torn out, branch, stem, and root.

It is not, in any way, what "we're" (which "we"?) for.
posted by aureliobuendia at 7:24 AM on May 3, 2017 [2 favorites]

Jeannette Haynie and Kyleanne Hunter argue that The Marines United scandal should be seen as a national security issue.

The intimidation factor is least borderline domestic terrorism perpetrated against members of the US military.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:25 AM on May 3, 2017 [9 favorites]

Some people will doubtless skate on this, but don't take a lack of knee-jerk action to be indicative that it's being ignored.


Yes, I agree. In about a year or so, after nothing will have been done other than a few token misdemeanor prosecutions and some NJP, then we can be sure it's been ignored.

At Least 30 Marines Face Courts-Martial In ‘Marines United’ Investigation

Hope the convening authorities don't decide to overturn guilty verdicts.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:34 AM on May 3, 2017 [9 favorites]

The degradation of women in the military reflected by the Marines United scandal is not just a women’s rights issue but a national security concern, since such actions undermine the Corps’ credibility and capability as the premier fighting force of the world’s leading democracy.

I mean, yes, but it's hard not to see this as implicit acceptance that the degradation of women is just not, by itself, all that concerning.

Which is the actual problem.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:36 AM on May 3, 2017 [7 favorites]

I know many fine men who are Marines, and I respect all of them individually for their character, intelligence, and service. The Corps, however, needs to get its shit together. The commander-in-chief said that women will be admitted, and they need to step up and make room for these women.

An honest question: what's the USMC's history with racial integration, compared to other services?
posted by wenestvedt at 8:00 AM on May 3, 2017 [1 favorite]

A friend's son was accepted into Royal Military College of Canada. He came home changed, notably his attitude about women. So sad and tragic, not only for him, but for the women he will interact with throughout his career.
posted by My Dad at 8:04 AM on May 3, 2017 [5 favorites]

That FP essay is very strong, and yet the irony of 45 as CinC burns: Our military must reflect the society we believe that we are in the most visible ways possible.
posted by suelac at 8:07 AM on May 3, 2017 [5 favorites]

An honest question: what's the USMC's history with racial integration, compared to other services?

They weren't particularly worse than the other services, but that ain't saying much.
posted by Etrigan at 8:10 AM on May 3, 2017 [2 favorites]

> "There are aspects of military culture that are pretty fucked up. Marines tend to have those aspects ramped up to 11."

It's not just a military culture thing, though. There was a long-running BELLYDANCE festival that exploded not long ago as a result of a very similar scandal.

This shit is everywhere.
posted by kyrademon at 8:16 AM on May 3, 2017 [4 favorites]

While abuse and exploitation of women does happen (and far too often), it should neither be expected nor in any way tolerated. It should only be torn out, branch, stem, and root.

When you're a woman, it's actually pretty damn healthy to expect that you'll be abused. Do we need a reminder that one in four women are raped? One in four. That means one eighth of the planet.

I'm no statistician but I'm pretty sure that when one eighth of the planet is subjected to just one type of gendered abuse, i.e. that number doesn't account for the women who experience yet more types of it, it's statistically significant and thus not "bullshit".

I agree it needs to stop. Until then, this woman will go on expecting shit from men because at least that way I'm prepared when signs of it appear. Not to mention, y'know, having already experienced a variety of gendered abuse throughout my life. (YES NOT ALL MEN omg.) Getting pretty tired of us having to defend ourselves from people who think telling the truth is "bullshit". It truly does feel like we're farm animals raised to be taken advantage of. That's a real feeling. There are even movies on the subject. Feel free to research, I'm not doing any more feminism 101 education today.
posted by fraula at 8:26 AM on May 3, 2017 [38 favorites]

That last link was a strange experience for me. It was written in the vernacular of military analysis, which, through long though infrequent exposure, I've come to associate with viewpoints I disagree with. I'm sure my view would be more nuanced if I had any more exposure to military thought than just reading articles online.

Seeing someone express important viewpoints that I agree strongly with in that same vernacular was jarring, and very very welcome. More, please. Ideally from high-ranking officers including men.
posted by gurple at 8:51 AM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]

On top of everything people have said above, this investigation is being now used to go after an entirely different set of people. The military is expanding the investigation to "a swath" of gay sites to find any active duty troops that "engaged in conduct that could bring discredit on their service".

From USA Today "NCIS has dedicated dozens of investigators to the matter [determining if the men in these photos are active duty troops], the source said. They can comb through the photos and identity troops with the use of facial-recognition software."

"Victims of so-called revenge porn in the in the Marines United case have limited protection under military law if the photographs or videos were taken originally with their consent."
posted by Garm at 8:52 AM on May 3, 2017

Just for the record, trying to get someone out of the U.S. military, if that person does not want to go (and I have zero doubt that they all think they're good Marines and will fight any such discharge) will always take more than three months. The glacial pace of military justice has its good features (sometimes, Private Snuffy just started on the wrong foot and will benefit from counseling and training) as well as its bad features.

Some people will doubtless skate on this, but don't take a lack of knee-jerk action to be indicative that it's being ignored.

Well it took a Marine judge about 5 minutes to decide to put me in maximum security pre-trial confinement followed by a 45 minute trial (also presided over by a Marine judge) and a 3 year prison sentence over whether or not I conspired to sell $32 worth of ecstasy.

"Zero tolerance," they said. "We're sending a message," they said. "Held to a higher standard," they said.

All the guys I was locked up with had gotten the hammer dropped on them with similar speed whether it was drugs, stolen equipment, AWOL, or whatever.

So maybe the Marines can show us they're serious about sexual harassment by taking it as seriously a minor drug charge or taking broken laptops out of the trash.

Edit: In fairness this was all pre-9/11
posted by Hiding From Goro at 9:02 AM on May 3, 2017 [45 favorites]

In Garm's USA Today link, Kirsten Gillibrand is quoted knocking it out of the park:

"This scandal is out of control and the Department of Defense needs to get a handle on it immediately," Gillibrand told USA TODAY in a statement. "Congress needs to demand accountability from the chain of command as to how so many service members, both women and men now, could be so easily exploited. Commanders have told us for decades that they can handle these issues, clearly they cannot, and Congress should step up and do its job and bring professionalism and accountability to the military justice system that has ignored predators for far too long.”

She's completely right that higher ranking Marines need to be held accountable. The fact that so many male Marines are posting and sharing betrays a general lack of respect for female Marines that seems likely to be baked into the USMC as an institution.

As a citizen, I would like to know how it is that so many members of the US Armed Forces get through training with such a lack of respect for women (in particular). Certainly this phenomenon is part of the society we live in--but why does it get amplified in the military and what does the DoD need to do to ensure that it does not happen again? I'm with Sen. Gillibrand--hold command accountable for the exploitative actions of Armed Forces members under their command.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:25 AM on May 3, 2017 [8 favorites]

Successful integration of women into the military is more than just removing regulatory barriers and adding women to rosters. As we see from the scandal’s fallout, it also includes challenging gender norms and deeply-held identities.

I am curious about this deeply-held identity. Asshole? Rapey Creep? Jerk? Were these key parts of Marine identity? How and why?
posted by srboisvert at 9:57 AM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]

The US requires monsters to do monstrous things. There's a collective guilt here that won't be addressed by punishing individuals.

Please keep this stuff in mind the next time the hawks press your fear buttons.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 10:05 AM on May 3, 2017 [2 favorites]

Can't really tell if this is /hamburger or not. If it is, it's shitty hamburger, if it isn't, it's demonstrably not true.

I'm sorry that my cry of rage at the routine abuse of women wasn't sufficiently couched in qualifiers for you. That must have been confusing. Let me fix that.

And, also, honestly, abuse and exploitation of women is to be expected¹ no matter what we do.² That's what we're for.³ So why take "extraordinary" measures to punish something completely ordinary?⁴ Boys will be boys.<sup>5

1</sup> It happens so often that when it happens again it isn't shocking and people underestimate the seriousness.
² While women who threaten gendered boundaries are often subject to heightened abuse, women who don't aren't safe from it.
³ It seems to be that men who commit this type of abuse frequently do not think of women beyond how they can be used.
⁴ See 1.
⁵ This kind of abusive behavior is so routine that when men engage in it it's not seen as abusive and something that "bad" men do; it's seen as normal male behavior.

JFC. Really, of all the comments to police. Let me add a #notallmen as well, just to be safe.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:26 AM on May 3, 2017 [35 favorites]

When I was younger I used to want to join the military because I loved the ideal of equality. Any personalization was your business, but publicly, you were a uniform. Whatever is underneath wasn't relevant. That's why, I'd tell my mom, so many of the black high-ups are military. It was the way in. It was equality.

I hate when the reality is so far removed from the ideal. This shit is scary.
posted by notdanielmendelson at 10:39 AM on May 3, 2017 [4 favorites]

Ok, I want to back up and clarify what I'm saying and what I understood:

fraula: When you're a woman, it's actually pretty damn healthy to expect that you'll be abused.

I agree. I ... did a poor job of clarifying what I meant. Should a woman expect that her possibility of becoming a victim of male violence is ridiculously high? Absolutely. I meant: We as a society shouldn't expect this to happen, nor should we tolerate it. Ugh, maybe "expect" is the wrong word. We shouldn't tolerate the expectation that this will happen is the way of the world, I guess.

I was not, in any way, #NOTALLMEN-ing.

Kutsuwasmushi: I get, clearly, that you are angry. I think it did not help that I did not read "That's what we're for" as "That's what we (women) are (used) for". (Which I think is your meaning, in, as you said, your "cry of rage". Happy to be corrected if I'm misreading again.) I read it as that's what "we" (society, possibly levels of specificity including Western, American, and military society) are "for" (in favor of / fight for / support). My understanding may or may not be debatable. It was, quite clearly, wrong, regardless.

Not that you need my validation, but I do agree with all of your clarifications/footnotes/sub-points.

I was, again, not #NOTALLMEN-ing

(Edited because I forgot a "not" where it was important and a space where one should have been.)
posted by aureliobuendia at 10:50 AM on May 3, 2017 [1 favorite]

Damn straight. It IS a national security issue. And the consequences should be dishonorable discharge.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 12:18 PM on May 3, 2017 [3 favorites]

Seems a good time to link to Australian Lt General David Morrison's statement (previously) for his troops. "The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept".
posted by rmd1023 at 1:18 PM on May 3, 2017 [6 favorites]

When I was younger I used to want to join the military because I loved the ideal of equality.

When I was a child, I thought I would get to grow up and be a person. There isn't a day that goes by where I am not reminded that I am a woman instead, and that means something entirely different to a huge portion of the other humans on this planet.

I'm so tired.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 2:01 PM on May 3, 2017 [31 favorites]

ADM John Richardson, Chief of Naval Operations (which includes the marines)

"I’ve heard hundreds of times that “these actions are being taken by only a small minority.” Prove that. If that’s true, then the vast majority of men and women need to stand up and smother this behavior. To become intolerant. To act to put a stop to this. And if you’re one of that minority that just won’t get it, then it’s time for you to leave the Navy."
posted by ctmf at 5:41 PM on May 3, 2017 [8 favorites]