"Not the best-looking girl in her class but definitely in the top five."

April 4, 2018 11:17 AM

"Film is a visual medium, and a screenwriter might have plenty of reasons to describe a female character’s look beyond simply flattering an actress or enticing the reader. Still, it’s striking to see how often and how thoroughly the female characters’ physical attributes are dissected {...] Take this description by Quentin Tarantino of the first woman we see in his film Death Proof, the radio DJ played by Sydney Tamiia Poitier:

A tall (maybe 6ft) Amazonian Mulatto goddess walks down her hallway, dressed in a baby tee, and panties that her big ass (a good thing) spill out of, and her long legs grow out of. Her big bare feet slap on the hard wood floor. She moves to the cool rockabilly beat as she paces like a tiger putting on her clothes. Outside her apartment she hears a 'Honk Honk.' She sticks her long mane of silky black curly hair, her giraffish neck and her broad shoulders, out of the window and yells to a car below."

How 50 Famous Female Characters Were Described In Their Screenplays [Kyle Buchanan and Jordan Crucchiola, Vulture]

"Some don’t even get that much: In the script for Star Wars, Princess Leia is merely described as a 'lovely young girl.' When her portrayer, Carrie Fisher, eventually embarked on a successful screenwriting career, she lavished far more attention on the characters she scripted.

One of those characters is the one we’ll end with: Postcards From the Edge’s Doris Mann, played by Shirley MacLaine and based on Fisher’s own mother, Debbie Reynolds. You can imagine a slow grin spreading on Fisher’s face as she brought this one home:

A woman is running down the hallway, wailing, everything flying — purse, wig askew, blouse untucked, false eyelashes removed. Clearly this woman was caught mid-something for the apparent emergency. She is DORIS MANN, about 60, formerly beautiful and more than somewhat currently. She was an enormous star in the ’50s and ’60s and bears that mark. She is currently very upset, theatrically so. Cutting a wide swath as she makes her way down the hall — things dropping out of her purse, mostly makeup, a pack of cigarettes. People watch her as she moves by moving aside to avoid impact. Doris Mann is very upset. Perhaps she has lost a shoe."

posted by Atom Eyes (99 comments total)

I bet Elmore Leonard never did anything like this when he was writing screenplays. Physical descriptions of characters were one of the things he didn't waste words on. He let his readers' imaginations do all that. Tarantino still has a lot to learn from him.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:26 AM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]

I had always understood "nubile" to mean "marriageable"; in that light the description of someone having "nubile breasts" is rather.... a thing.
posted by inconstant at 11:28 AM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

Somewhat related: How would you look through the eyes of a terrible male author?
posted by the webmistress at 11:34 AM on April 4, 2018 [17 favorites]

I've taken a screenwriting class from someone who sells screenplays and whose students sell screenplays, and I gotta say the Tarantino one made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. #CREEPYASFUCK

PS. Tarantino has a lot to learn, period.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 11:35 AM on April 4, 2018 [17 favorites]

She moves to the cool rockabilly beat as she paces like a tiger putting on her clothes.

I wonder how Quentin thinks a tiger puts on her clothes.
posted by The Bellman at 11:36 AM on April 4, 2018 [125 favorites]

Is reading this article going to make me want to consume the flesh of men, please advise.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:37 AM on April 4, 2018 [75 favorites]

Is reading this article going to make me want to consume the flesh of men, please advise.

What doesn't make you want to do that
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:40 AM on April 4, 2018 [56 favorites]

Is reading this article going to make me want to consume the flesh of men, please advise.
Yes and no - 90% of the descriptions are about how attractive the ladies are, but also some are so disgusting that I would not want to put anything related to the writers anywhere near me or my mouth.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:40 AM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

The fact that they include the showgirls description that has nothing to do with the characters' sexiness is a nice touch:

Her name is NOMI MALONE. She looks from a distance like a kid. She stands along the Interstate, outlines in the shadows of the setting sun. She’s got a big American Tourister in front of her with a sign on it that says: “Vegas.” The suitcase looks like it’s been dropped from a plane or something. She’s wearing a baseball cap, a worn black leather jacket, torn jeans, and time-kissed cowboy boots. She’s got her thumb out.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:43 AM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]

KATNISS EVERDEEN walks past without turning. She’s 15, lean and hungry, with steel-gray eyes and a long dark braid — a fighter, robbed of her little-girl years long ago.

This is a good one, evocative and emotional even with how terse it is. A lot like Katniss herself.
posted by yasaman at 11:44 AM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]

Related - horrible excerpts from actual casting cals
posted by Mogur at 11:44 AM on April 4, 2018 [4 favorites]

sometimes i have already eaten
posted by poffin boffin at 11:44 AM on April 4, 2018 [22 favorites]

My friend's take was great and succinct: BAN MEN FROM DESCRIBING FEMALE CHARACTERS AS “PRETTY, BUT ___________”.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:50 AM on April 4, 2018 [49 favorites]

1. Amazing how many of these feel the need to state that the character is beautiful. Like, you're trying to make a Hollywood movie, of course she's going to be beautiful.

2. Also amazing how the two descriptions of women/girls in the 90s wearing a loose, vintage dress have some variation on "she's trying to hide her beauty with this ugly dress." Nooooooo, it was the style at the time! (I mean, I get that the people making the movie had it be about hiding beauty and part of these characters but, like, a lot of young women dressed like this in the 90s. It wasn't a character trait.)

3. Of course the one woman here described as being overweight, it has to also include her "oily skin," "grimy dress" and the description that she is practically part of the couch. Nice.
posted by lunasol at 11:50 AM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]

I'm only surprised at that Tarantino description because he spends as much time describing the rest of her body as he does her feet.
posted by Gelatin at 12:07 PM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]

I'm torn about the description of Buttercup from The Princess Bride. On one hand, yeah, this isn't great:

Buttercup is in her late teens; doesn’t care much about clothes and she hates brushing her long hair, so she isn’t as attractive as she might be, but she’s still probably the most beautiful woman in the world.

except that it's directly from the book and relates directly to her character development early in the movie. Hm.
posted by Lexica at 12:08 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

I cringed when I saw that The Thin Man was on the list. But,

NORA CHARLES, Nick’s wife, is coming through. She is a woman of about twenty-six… a tremendously vital person, interested in everybody and everything, in contrast to Nick’s apparent indifference to anything except when he is going to get his next drink. There is a warm understanding relationship between them. They are really crazy about each other, but undemonstrative and humorous in their companionship. They are tolerant, easy-going, taking drink for drink, and battling their way together with a dry humor.

Aside from the random and unnecessary age reference. . . that wasn't really bad at all. Huzzah! Shame about every other example, though.

Cripes, Tarantino. . . how is it possible you continue to disappoint when the bar is already so very low.
posted by eotvos at 12:15 PM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]

My wife used to work at a small production company, and one of her tasks was to go through the spec script pile and...well, throw them in the trash after giving them a perfunctory glance, usually. I remember her telling me about one that started off with a scene of teenage girls showering at school, and of course the descriptions of the girls and what they were doing went on at incredibly creepy length. She said she didn't know whether she should've shredded it or passed it along to the cops as potential evidence.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:15 PM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]

God. I have to admit I'm operating on a sleep deficit but these are so uncreative and dispiriting. Half these screenwriters clearly want to grope these fictional women.

Thankfully some of these were ultimately saved by creative actresses who presumably think of women as human beings.
posted by selfnoise at 12:18 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

Here's my anecdote of encountering this in an indie script for a production I was considering working on.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 12:20 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]

Half these screenwriters clearly want to grope these fictional women.

You're low-balling that fraction, I fear.
posted by tzikeh at 12:21 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

I remember her telling me about one that started off with a scene of teenage girls showering at school, and of course the descriptions of the girls and what they were doing went on at incredibly creepy length.

Never trust a dude who picks invisibility as the superpower he'd most like to possess.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:22 PM on April 4, 2018 [32 favorites]

There is a warm understanding relationship between them. They are really crazy about each other, but undemonstrative and humorous in their companionship. They are tolerant, easy-going, taking drink for drink, and battling their way together with a dry humor.

Regarding Nick and Nora, I'm impressed at how well the actors and director were able to capture that dynamic on film. It's my favorite thing about the movie, and the reason they're one of my all-time favorite film couples. I think that it's one of the reasons their movies hold up so well - they seem to both like and love each other, and that is frighteningly rare in so many film "romances".
posted by protocoach at 12:24 PM on April 4, 2018 [41 favorites]

remember her telling me about one that started off with a scene of teenage girls showering at school, and of course the descriptions of the girls and what they were doing went on at incredibly creepy length. She said she didn't know whether she should've shredded it or passed it along to the cops as potential evidence.

Unfortunately this movie has been made many times over.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:25 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

GERTRUDE TEENAGER is an A-list Hollywood actress in her early 20s with professional makeup, top-notch plastic surgery, and 2 hours a day of intensive personal training. HOWEVER, she is wearing unfashionable glasses and her hair is in an awkward mess so the other characters and the audience perceive her as APPALLINGLY UGLY, ZERO OUT OF TEN until the third act.
posted by allegedly at 12:31 PM on April 4, 2018 [60 favorites]

Sarah Connor was supposed to be nineteen? Huh. I don't know if it was '80s fashions or what but I would have assumed she was a lot closer to thirty, which is a compliment. Linda Hamilton looks like she's never taken shit in her life.

I didn't really need any convincing to never watch another Tarantino movie, but I guess I got it.

I also did not need convincing to hate Avatar any more, but Cameron's specifying that Neytiri would be 18 in human years ... ugh ugh ugh.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:33 PM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]

I thought it surprising that Ellen Ripley was left off this list, considering how iconic and game changing the character was for female characters in film.
I decided to go do some snooping and see how she was described in her first film appearance, "Alien".

In Dan O'Bannon's early draft of the script, she isn't even mentioned, at least by name. There are crewmen listed, along with this interesting note:

The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women.

In a later draft, the final shooting script by Walter Hill and David Giler, we now have Ripley, but she is only described as Ripley.........Warrant Officer.

Another vote for Less Is More.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:37 PM on April 4, 2018 [106 favorites]

I swear there is no acceptable usage of the word "nubile".
posted by selfnoise at 12:39 PM on April 4, 2018 [47 favorites]

I cringed when I saw that The Thin Man was on the list. But,

Co-written by Frances Goodrich who, with her husband Albert Hackett, later went on to win the Pulitzer Prize for The Diary of Anne Frank.
posted by octothorpe at 12:40 PM on April 4, 2018 [18 favorites]

I also did not need convincing to hate Avatar any more, but Cameron's specifying that Neytiri would be 18 in human years ..
omfg
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 12:41 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

Linda Hamilton looks like she's never taken shit in her life.

I first read this as if it had an extra "a." Makes quite a lot of difference.
posted by dlugoczaj at 12:43 PM on April 4, 2018 [112 favorites]

I know there's already been a lot of dumping on Tarantino, but....Mulatto? Seriously?
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 12:44 PM on April 4, 2018 [48 favorites]

I mean, you can't be too surprised that Tarantino uses racially offensive language...
posted by haileris23 at 12:46 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

"GERTRUDE TEENAGER is an A-list Hollywood actress in her early 20s with professional makeup, top-notch plastic surgery, and 2 hours a day of intensive personal training. HOWEVER, she is wearing unfashionable glasses and her hair is in an awkward mess so the other characters and the audience perceive her as APPALLINGLY UGLY, ZERO OUT OF TEN until the third act."

I watched Ready Player One recently (hadn't read the book) and there is a scene where the leading female is told she is attractive by the leading man and she pushes off the compliment as a lie and pretends she is ugly. I literally was bewildered for a couple of moments, trying to figure out what bullshit Hollywood device was being used to try to convince the audience that she wasn't traditionally Hollywood attractive. Oh, a birth mark on her face. It took me a second though, and I was really confused. And I immediately thought of the 'bad hair', baseball cap, and 'ugly glasses' bullshit that is supposed to signal to the audience that this (current standard of) beauty isn't supposed to be beautiful.
posted by el io at 12:47 PM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]

> I also did not need convincing to hate Avatar any more, but Cameron's specifying that Neytiri would be 18 in human years

I haven't seen Avatar, but knowing what I do of it I'm having a hard time imagining a plot-driven reason why that alien character needed to be exactly barely legal 18 in human years.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:48 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

She has cropped brown hair almost like a boy’s but her face is feminine and pretty enough to get away with it.

...to get away with it.

Vom.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:48 PM on April 4, 2018 [38 favorites]

It's perhaps worth noting that screenplays can be written for different purposes that would likely change the need or interest in descriptions. Studio system screenplays often didn't need much description when the screenwriter was given the assignment to write for a particular film where the stars would either be known or added for studio/star reasons. No sense wasting much time on describing anything that isn't germane to the plot or character development in that situation.

If a writer is trying to sell a script to the studio then they're going to add whatever they think will make their screenplay stand out as "sexy" to the producers/directors they hope will read it. From what we know of a lot of Hollywood producers, adding that sort of degrading sexual detail might indeed make it more enticing in theory, at least if they knew the creeps would actually read it themselves.

With a few of the really popular writer/directors like Tarantino its worth noting that his screenplays were getting published for general sale, so he likely wasn't just making that as a note to himself, which would be dumb enough, but would be expecting it to be read by his hard core fans as well.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:49 PM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]

> I'm only surprised at that Tarantino description because he spends as much time describing the rest of her body as he does her feet.

Well, he's not Dan Schneider.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:52 PM on April 4, 2018

I haven't seen Avatar, but knowing what I do of it I'm having a hard time imagining a plot-driven reason why that alien character needed to be exactly barely legal 18 in human years.

The original script had a subplot that involved the character stressing out about having just failed her driver's test.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:53 PM on April 4, 2018 [23 favorites]

starting to think male artists have been getting horny on main this entire time
posted by little onion at 12:53 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

At least when fanfic writers describe characters like this, everybody knows why you were searching those particular parts of AO3 and both author and reader have some degree signed up for the fact that everybody's looking for porn, and then you can debate whether it's just bad descriptive writing. Real actresses have to read this shit written about the characters they're playing every day to be employable. But the fanfic writers are the ones who get mocked, for some reason.
posted by Sequence at 12:56 PM on April 4, 2018 [39 favorites]

Sarah Connor was supposed to be nineteen? Huh. I don't know if it was '80s fashions or what but I would have assumed she was a lot closer to thirty, which is a compliment. Linda Hamilton looks like she's never taken shit in her life.

That would be because Linda Hamilton was about 28 when she played Sarah Connor for the first time. And about 35 for T2 (She was seriously my hero in that film. Mad respect).
posted by Secret Sparrow at 1:04 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

With a few of the really popular writer/directors like Tarantino its worth noting that his screenplays were getting published for general sale, so he likely wasn't just making that as a note to himself, which would be dumb enough, but would be expecting it to be read by his hard core fans as well.

So, yes, literally objectifying to increase the perceived and sometimes literal value. You know what else did that, in my experience? A lot of racist, sexist non-fiction, such as bills of sale for slave auctions and newspaper reporting. I read the description above the fold and it turned my stomach because it hit a lot of the same beats of intersectional asshattery I read in scant genealogical research during early high school. My great-great-grandmother was described somewhat like this - Mulatto with a capital M, very pretty and striking you guys!!, comment about her hair and clothes - in a local article from the 1800s. About her being arrested for killing the white male, described only by reputation, who assaulted her. I did a damn double take. It was obviously meant to scandalous and titillating, so some things never change apparently. Jesus.
posted by Freeze Peach at 1:06 PM on April 4, 2018 [36 favorites]

I had always understood "nubile" to mean "marriageable"; in that light the description of someone having "nubile breasts" is rather.... a thing.

You could fill a thousand books with the dumbass ways men have described boobs. My favorite is "supple," which by its use implies that these idiots think most women are walking around with rigid breasts.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:06 PM on April 4, 2018 [26 favorites]

"She moves to the cool rockabilly beat as she paces like a tiger putting on her clothes."

I wonder how Quentin thinks a tiger puts on her clothes.

How the elephant got in my pajamas, I'll never know.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:08 PM on April 4, 2018 [31 favorites]

screenplays can be written for different purposes that would likely change the need or interest in descriptions......If a writer is trying to sell a script to the studio then they're going to add whatever they think will make their screenplay stand out as "sexy" to the producers/directors they hope will read it.

I am idly imagining a Scrivener plugin that makes it easy for you to work on a single document that you can emit in regular mode or producer-optimized mode. The latter mode would have more car crashes and objectification of women. The premium version would hook into the intel Hiro Protagonist is uploading from the Black Sun in Snow Crash, about who wants an out-of-nowhere shooting-bazooka-at-dumpster scene in their next movie.
posted by brainwane at 1:08 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

@Major Matt Mason Dixon, another cool tidbit about Alien/gender representation/casting/script is that the character Lambert is transgender, which is never referred to except for a brief shot of her medical file.

Source: https://twitter.com/KateVsTheWorld/status/971965528699953158
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 1:13 PM on April 4, 2018 [16 favorites]

This is very much like a recent Twitter thread on how male writers describe female characters. Basically: a description of their boobs. Also a "new twitter challenge: describe yourself like a male author would" and it gets pretty funny.
If nothing else, it's a great list of writers not worth bothering with.
posted by Zack_Replica at 1:14 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

Female Character is attractive but doesn't know it. She is sexy but has a quirky character note that makes her less intimidating to the male audience. She has a boyish character trait to show that she is worth taking seriously but she is definitely feminine. She has the maturity of an appropriately-aged woman for this role but is 18 years old. She is thin.
posted by Emily's Fist at 1:16 PM on April 4, 2018 [65 favorites]

Never trust a dude who picks invisibility as the superpower he'd most like to possess.

Paging mefite Gygesringtone.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 1:23 PM on April 4, 2018

A tall (maybe 6ft) Amazonian Mulatto goddess walks down her hallway, dressed in a baby tee, and panties that her big ass (a good thing) spill out of, and her long legs grow out of.

Jesus Christ, Q, were you typing that with one hand?
posted by rokusan at 1:34 PM on April 4, 2018 [14 favorites]

I remember her telling me about one that started off with a scene of teenage girls showering at school, and of course the descriptions of the girls and what they were doing went on at incredibly creepy length.

Spoiler: things don't go well at the prom.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:39 PM on April 4, 2018 [24 favorites]

I mean, I really like going to the movies, but shit like this just sends me into some combination of hopeless, despondent futility and, like, BURN HOLLYWOOD TO THE GROUND AND SALT THE RUINS.
posted by thivaia at 1:43 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

Jesus Christ, Q, were you typing that with one hand?

I think he was actually typing with his penis.

And yeah, it's painfully obvious that anyone who's written a girls' locker room scene for a Hollywood movie has never actually been inside a real girls' locker room.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:46 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

"1. Amazing how many of these feel the need to state that the character is beautiful. Like, you're trying to make a Hollywood movie, of course she's going to be beautiful."

They're all beautiful because of these descriptions clearly noting that they are! Otherwise our movies would be chock full of homely people.
posted by GoblinHoney at 1:46 PM on April 4, 2018 [9 favorites]

So, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says it's better to cut your hand off or pluck your eye out than to continue to allow it to lead you into sin. That seems like a good lesson to many of the writers featured here: If you can't look at a person without objectifying them you need to be better. If you can't write a certain kind of person without sleazily objectifying them, you need to stop trying to write. Go do something else with your life, preferably away from the people you undoubtedly creep out constantly.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:51 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

How the elephant got in my pajamas, I'll never know.

"She arrvies with a loud trumpet fanfare as she charges in like an elephant putting on her pajamas."

No, still not good. Better, but still not good.
posted by The Bellman at 1:55 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

'shit like this just sends me into some combination of hopeless, despondent futility and, like, BURN HOLLYWOOD TO THE GROUND AND SALT THE RUINS.'

Whenever you get that feeling, I would highly recommend blasting this (burn, hollywood, burn)
posted by el io at 1:58 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

I know there's already been a lot of dumping on Tarantino
Not nearly enough. Can't express how much I loathe him.
In film school 20 years ago we'd laugh at the cluster of Tarantino film-nerd bros in our class, with their STUPID. FUCKING. 1993. GOATEES. They're probably all men's rights dudes now.
posted by chococat at 1:58 PM on April 4, 2018 [21 favorites]

In film school 20 years ago we'd laugh at the cluster of Tarantino film-nerd bros in our class, with their STUPID. FUCKING. 1993. GOATEES.

Leave Mr. Pink out of this.
posted by Gelatin at 1:59 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

Leave Mr. Pink out of this.


Yeah, at least he didn't become a men's rights dude.

Lets see...apparently he's now *checks*...

...Nikita Khrushchev?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:09 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

Also, although Tim Burton's description of Lydia from Beetlejuice isn't bad, it's about the least surprising thing in the world that he cites Edward Gorey in his description.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:11 PM on April 4, 2018 [9 favorites]

Years ago I decided never to mention any character's attractiveness unless it was absolutely required. I have written probably 1,000 articles, 30 plays (short and long), 20 short stories (five to be published this year already), and five screenplays since then and it has never come up.
posted by maxsparber at 2:15 PM on April 4, 2018 [20 favorites]

screenplays can be written for different purposes that would likely change the need or interest in descriptions......If a writer is trying to sell a script to the studio then they're going to add whatever they think will make their screenplay stand out as "sexy" to the producers/directors they hope will read it.

It's not really any better to write women pruriently because you figure that's how other men view women, and heck why not perpetuate a shitty system if it might help you get a leg up on the competition. In both cases you're treating women as sex objects -- in the second case even more overtly, because you're using them to sell your screenplay.
posted by mrmurbles at 2:20 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]

I know there's already been a lot of dumping on Tarantino, but....Mulatto? Seriously?

It's his shorthand for, "She's black, but not too black. Black in a way that's exotic and suitable for my fetish (a good thing)."
posted by AlSweigart at 2:26 PM on April 4, 2018 [29 favorites]

Female Character is attractive but doesn't know it.

Good God, as if she hasn't been catcalled every day of her life since she was eleven years old. She might not consider herself "sexy", but she knows, with very likely a great deal of discomfort, that all manner of men are looking at her. She'd have to be a shut-in to live up to that sort of idiotic framing of any female who exists in this world.
My comment is directed at the theoretical writer, not at you Emily's Fist.
posted by vignettist at 2:35 PM on April 4, 2018 [15 favorites]

This one for Erin Brockovich, I actually find to be fairly literate and (dare I say) accurate:
"... beautiful — but clearly from a social class and geographic orientation whose standards for displaying beauty are not based on subtlety."
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:39 PM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]

It's not really any better to write women pruriently because you figure that's how other men view women, and heck why not perpetuate a shitty system if it might help you get a leg up on the competition.

No, it isn't any better, and wasn't intended as a defense of the practice, just a suggestion of some reasons different screenplays have more unnecessary description than others.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:59 PM on April 4, 2018

If Tarantino wrote scripts for publication he would learn to spell.

I have seen his original scripts and they are nothing like what is sold to the public.
posted by maxsparber at 3:01 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

Script doctors are amazing people.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:10 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

and panties that her big ass (a good thing) spill out of, and her long legs grow out of.

whoever doctored this should lose their license to practice script medicine
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:22 PM on April 4, 2018 [19 favorites]

Regarding Nick and Nora, I'm impressed at how well the actors and director were able to capture that dynamic on film. It's my favorite thing about the movie, and the reason they're one of my all-time favorite film couples.

Well that and their superior taste in dogs. You left off Asta's introduction which comes on the heels of Nora's:

...They are tolerant, easy-going, taking
drink for drink, and battling their way to-
gether with a dry humor. Just now Nora has
been shopping. Her arms are full of small
packages. Her hat is askew. She is pulled
along bodily by a small white Sealingham* on a
leash. A doorman and a hat-check clerk are
following her, protesting at her bringing the
dog into this fashionable hotel. The dog is
exitedly barking.

----------------------
*Actually a Wire Fox Terrier on screen.
posted by notyou at 3:31 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

whoever doctored this should lose their license to practice script medicine

I think this particular script doctor might actually have been a script osteopath.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:42 PM on April 4, 2018 [14 favorites]

The only kinda sorta excuse for the Tarantino thing is that Death Proof is one part of Grindhouse, a pair of movies made explicitly as homages to exploitation film, and this might be to an extent part and parcel of that style, but it's a pretty weak excuse. I don't know, I haven't read any of Tarantino's scripts, do they all tend to be like this?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:44 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

I have seen his original scripts and they are nothing like what is sold to the public.

Good for you I guess? Not sure what your point is though since the description comes from Tarantino's cleaned up "final draft" which is easily available to read online. That Tarantino can't spell is no secret, copies of some of his early efforts have shown up online, though I personally have only read snippets of them, so there isn't any real surprise in him having someone clean up his scripts.

If you're suggesting wholesale rewriting and reinvention by someone else that Tarantino signs his name to that's bolder, but would be little different in terms of the effect since he's okaying the descriptions in his name. I haven't heard Tarantino gets that kind of complete rewriting of his scripts myself, but in the end he still gets the "credit" for what's released as being by him even if there are others who secretly share in that honor.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:46 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

*Actually a Wire Fox Terrier on screen.

Growing up in the 70's my dad had a wire fox terrier named "Whisky". The collie was named "Smokey"

I miss my dad.
posted by mikelieman at 3:46 PM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]

Men really don't understand age.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:02 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

Men really don't understand age.

They understand age just fine as long as it's under 25. Women start to fade and become see through after that. By 50, they're absolutely invisible.

So you can't really blame them for not being able to write female characters over 45, can you?
posted by frumiousb at 5:29 PM on April 4, 2018 [4 favorites]

> They understand age just fine as long as it's under 25

I disagree. They have no idea what a "young girl" is.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:29 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

Related. -- non-twitter link with information here

(internally screaming)
posted by dinty_moore at 5:58 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

This article gave me the heebie jeebies.

We know very clearly reading these that the writers perceive the audience as male. We're invisible as characters in and viewers of cinema.

I keep writing myself in as the reader.

The reader is disgruntled and uncomfortable with what she finds in the script. She begins to feel frumpy and angry and aware of her aging skin all at once. She wonders briefly if she is more beautiful than she admits to herself, considers a coupon for moisturizer she has been using as a bookmark, then dismisses the idea and mutters to herself about the male gaze.
posted by chapps at 6:06 PM on April 4, 2018 [16 favorites]

She has cropped brown hair almost like a boy’s but her face is feminine and pretty enough to get away with it.

...to get away with it.

Vom.

She has a man's haircut and it's totally hot in a not gay way

no homo
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:20 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

The cumulative effect of these scripts is like being stuck inside the male gaze personified. Also, such bad writing. I suppose scripts need to explain things extra-textually like this, but it comes across so hamfisted.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:48 PM on April 4, 2018 [5 favorites]

Man character is coming out. He talks like he is tall. He has ex-military good posture, white teeth, nails trimmed with artisanal discipline. He has not shaven today, but he radiates quiet authority and I.Q. His clothes are fashionable without effort.

Woman character is coming out. She is boob.
posted by Construction Concern at 6:50 PM on April 4, 2018 [34 favorites]

They have no idea what a "young girl" is.

Or they do...and that just makes it a million times worse.
posted by elsietheeel at 6:52 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

Men really don't understand age.

The careful, oh so careful, parsing of phrases like 'nubile' (or the more honest 'barely legal') suggests that this isn't entirely true.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:36 PM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]

The only kinda sorta excuse for the Tarantino thing is that Death Proof is one part of Grindhouse, a pair of movies made explicitly as homages to exploitation film, 

Oh, well, as long as it's an "homage to exploitation" I guess that makes it ok. [Rolls eyes into cerebellum]
posted by sexyrobot at 11:22 PM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]

Real actresses have to read this shit written about the characters they're playing every day to be employable. But the fanfic writers are the ones who get mocked, for some reason.

The fanfic writers didn't get their work made into big budget movies.

Money and power convince people to take stuff seriously, and confer respectability, even if there's a nucleus of silliness somewhere at the center of it.
posted by theorique at 3:20 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

This one for Erin Brockovich, I actually find to be fairly literate and (dare I say) accurate:
"... beautiful — but clearly from a social class and geographic orientation whose standards for displaying beauty are not based on subtlety."

This set me to thinking... EB is a real living person. They made a movie about her after she got famous. And she was a consultant on the film. Why the hell would you need a verbal translation of her gendered performance of her social class/habitus when she’s on the fucking set?

Ahem. Anyway, this set me to thinking about iterating this analysis with a class focus. There you might find some structures that cross-cut gender and race. I’d be especially interested in meta-descriptions of how male and female and upper and lower class characters speak — sort of an applied sociolinguistics BA or MA thesis project idea I herewith bequeath to the world.
posted by spitbull at 3:28 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

One of the aspects of screenwriting I've read is that it's the writer's communication to the actors and director how he or she envisions the story and characters. It's useful to remember about that Tarantino excerpt that he was going to direct that scene. From Sydney Tamiia Poitier's perspective, the scene involves her walking down a hall while listening to music and wearing few clothes, maybe getting dressed -- or maybe it's a tiger -- and yelling at a car out a window. The rest of the details seemed aimed at the director to establish the character, so did Tatantino think he'd forget that he intended that scene for a large and sexy African-American woman?
posted by Gelatin at 3:31 AM on April 5, 2018

The rest of the details seemed aimed at the director to establish the character, so did Tatantino think he'd forget that he intended that scene for a large and sexy African-American woman?

According to Tarantino in this video*, he wrote the part specifically for Poitier. To me that makes it considerably grosser, but perhaps the defense is that it is a specific fantasy about her body, not just a generic fantasy, for whatever that might be worth.

* Appropriately, the series that video is part of is called "weinsteinextras," and you can sense the special Harvey touch.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 AM on April 5, 2018 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure I understand the problems with stating age? I mean, I get the offensive unnecessarity most of the physical descriptions, for sure, but isn't age hugely useful in a screenplay? It's one of the first things we do notice in people, after all, and it impacts not just casting but the whole story. Like, for example...

EXT SIDEWALK, EARLY AM: A [female person] is waiting alone at a bus stop, holding a crumpled paper bag. One of her shoes is missing.

That reads a heck of a lot different if the person is "a 5 year old girl", "a 15 year old girl", "a 30 year old woman" or "an 80 year old woman".

I mean, that's four very different scenarios, each with its own questions and dramatic tensions as a result of the age only, and I can't think of a more concise and useful descriptor to clue me, the reader, in on that.
posted by rokusan at 7:13 AM on April 5, 2018

perhaps the defense is that it is a specific fantasy about her body, not just a generic fantasy, for whatever that might be worth.

It’s not worth anything. And Tarantino is powerful enough that he doesn’t need us to imagine defences for him.
posted by harriet vane at 7:18 AM on April 5, 2018 [3 favorites]

That reads a heck of a lot different if the person is "a 5 year old girl", "a 15 year old girl", "a 30 year old woman" or "an 80 year old woman".

Right. So one big way to address that problem is right in your own comment: words like “girl” and “woman”, which have specific meanings regarding a female person’s age. The words “old” and “young” also help. But I think you know the real problem with age being included in these descriptions and are trying to be coy given the conversation you’re contributing to... if you can’t see what’s troubling and gross about describing a female character by her physical attributes and sexual appeal to the unseen observer (some would call this the male gaze), and then slapping a barely legal age on the character that very obviously dictates who will be looked at for casting the role, when such measures are rarely ever taken with descriptions of male characters.. well. Hmm.
posted by palomar at 7:33 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

"The original script had a subplot that involved the character stressing out about having just failed her driver's test."

And then another Nav'i was like, "you're a virgin who can't drive" and then Neytiri was like "way harsh, Tai."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:49 AM on April 5, 2018 [8 favorites]

The fanfic writers didn't get their work made into big budget movies.

aside from 50 shades of bullshit and cassandra claire.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:17 PM on April 5, 2018 [7 favorites]

I swear there is no acceptable usage of the word "nubile".

Given that is 2018 and the meaning of "nubile" is sexually mature and marriageable.....it now just means adult of any gender which is kind of fun. I'm going to start calling men nubile.
posted by srboisvert at 2:26 PM on April 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

The After series of novels by Anna Todd began life as fan fiction too, specifically about the band One Direction, which I find amazing.
posted by maxsparber at 4:45 AM on April 7, 2018

For anybody still reading this…
posted by kimota at 3:36 PM on April 7, 2018 [4 favorites]