Dada Comes Full Circle
August 29, 2018 9:33 AM Subscribe
“This is a qualitatively different phenomenon from television entertainers of the past like Mr. Rogers or Bill Nye—instead of appealing to human producers or an audience of children, YouTubers are bending to the whims of an algorithm. In order to sustain their livelihood, these creators are forced to endlessly churn out the same content on a rigorous schedule—desperately chasing views and flirting with an algorithm to survive.” How YouTube Makes Childrens’ Entertainers Behave Like Machines
Security warning on that link. Perhaps appropriately.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:41 AM on August 29, 2018
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:41 AM on August 29, 2018
I’d no sooner let my kids browse YouTube than late-night cable in the 80s.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:43 AM on August 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 9:43 AM on August 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
Man. The reckoning for YouTube can’t come fast enough.
Does anyone know of any research being done on the YouTube’s algo’s tendency to radicalize people? Particularly young people? Or otherwise fuck with development?
Perhaps more importantly, there’s no way YouTube doesn’t know about it, right? They track everything, they’re the only ones who have access to all the data. They know what their platform does.
I swear to God I’ve been fantasizing about running for Congress just so I can endlessly investigate the tech platforms.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
Does anyone know of any research being done on the YouTube’s algo’s tendency to radicalize people? Particularly young people? Or otherwise fuck with development?
Perhaps more importantly, there’s no way YouTube doesn’t know about it, right? They track everything, they’re the only ones who have access to all the data. They know what their platform does.
I swear to God I’ve been fantasizing about running for Congress just so I can endlessly investigate the tech platforms.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
They track everything, they’re the only ones who have access to all the data. They know what their platform does.
Data can only answer the questions one asks. Google knows how effective their platform is regarding engagement and advertising. Google has no reason to ask about their platform's effects on child development or on human wellbeing or on society as a whole. So they probably don't "know" -- because it's in their interest to ignore those questions. They have no good reason to hire people to ask those questions, or to encourage/allow their current employees to have, express, or follow up on any concerns they may have. And those employees are likely not taught or trained or inclined to even think about these issues, are not inclined to have these concerns.
posted by halation at 9:49 AM on August 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
Data can only answer the questions one asks. Google knows how effective their platform is regarding engagement and advertising. Google has no reason to ask about their platform's effects on child development or on human wellbeing or on society as a whole. So they probably don't "know" -- because it's in their interest to ignore those questions. They have no good reason to hire people to ask those questions, or to encourage/allow their current employees to have, express, or follow up on any concerns they may have. And those employees are likely not taught or trained or inclined to even think about these issues, are not inclined to have these concerns.
posted by halation at 9:49 AM on August 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
Google has no reason to ask about their platform's effects on child development or on human wellbeing or on society as a whole. So they probably don't "know" -- because it's in their interest to ignore those questions.
They absolutely know what progression of videos is most likely to “engage” various demographics and keep them engaged. They model their product as personalized attention addiction. They absolutely know what hooks people and why.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:51 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
They absolutely know what progression of videos is most likely to “engage” various demographics and keep them engaged. They model their product as personalized attention addiction. They absolutely know what hooks people and why.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:51 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
The only solution is regulation. And they know that, too. So they'll go just far enough to almost trigger the torch and pitchforks but no further.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2018
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2018
I was recently watching a cousins 4-5 year old interact with youtube on his tablet and it was some weird shit
posted by mit5urugi at 9:56 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mit5urugi at 9:56 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
They model their product as personalized attention addiction. They absolutely know what hooks people and why.
Do they know that? Are they actually using humans to do this or is it all machine learning black boxes?
posted by dilaudid at 10:02 AM on August 29, 2018
Do they know that? Are they actually using humans to do this or is it all machine learning black boxes?
posted by dilaudid at 10:02 AM on August 29, 2018
It's like Colossus: The Forbin Project, but with box forts.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:04 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:04 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
> The only solution is regulation. And they know that, too. So they'll go just far enough to almost trigger the torch and pitchforks but no further.
I am saying this in a calm levelheaded "here is the best solution for our current problems" way, not in a "grar pitchforks torches guillotines revolt smash destroy" way:
Forget regulation. We need to nationalize the motherfuckers.
The only problem with google and amazon and the rest of the tech giants is that they're being run by moneyed interests for moneyed interests. Put them under democratic control and they'll stop being a curse and go back to being a blessing.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 10:07 AM on August 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
I am saying this in a calm levelheaded "here is the best solution for our current problems" way, not in a "grar pitchforks torches guillotines revolt smash destroy" way:
Forget regulation. We need to nationalize the motherfuckers.
The only problem with google and amazon and the rest of the tech giants is that they're being run by moneyed interests for moneyed interests. Put them under democratic control and they'll stop being a curse and go back to being a blessing.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 10:07 AM on August 29, 2018 [20 favorites]
Google has no reason to ask about their platform's effects
The only solution is regulation
Be careful what you wish for. "We're looking at that"
posted by CynicalKnight at 10:07 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
The only solution is regulation
Be careful what you wish for. "We're looking at that"
posted by CynicalKnight at 10:07 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Man. The reckoning for YouTube can’t come fast enough.
yeah, maybe start with finding a few dozen of my playlists that seem to have suddenly disappeared.
posted by philip-random at 10:09 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
yeah, maybe start with finding a few dozen of my playlists that seem to have suddenly disappeared.
posted by philip-random at 10:09 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
From April: YouTube Kids Is Going To Release A Whitelisted, Non-Algorithmic Version Of Its App
posted by waninggibbon at 10:23 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
YouTube is planning to release a new version of its YouTube Kids app that will do away with algorithmically suggested videos and will only display videos from channels that a team of YouTube curators handpicks, a source familiar with YouTube’s plans told BuzzFeed News.The new version appeared in May. You choose it by turning off search functionality in the app.
The whitelisted version will be an option parents can select. It will exist alongside the algorithmic version.
posted by waninggibbon at 10:23 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
God I hate YouTube. The kids can’t get enough of Dan TDM. Basically they play Minecraft or Roblox or whatever and yell about stuff continuously at a particular excited pitch, without much pause. And what they tell about is basically nothing, it’s all utterly inane. Any time they spend listening to thisvks just time burned up with no return.
(could be worse than yelling about nothing. You’re also never more than a couple of clicks away from a white supremicist on YouTube too so I get that to worry about too.)
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
(could be worse than yelling about nothing. You’re also never more than a couple of clicks away from a white supremicist on YouTube too so I get that to worry about too.)
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
artw, if it's any consolation, when my son is telling me about this stuff, I like to think to myself that this must be how my parents felt when I rambled on about D&D or Star Wars or whatever I was into that year
posted by kokaku at 10:41 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 10:41 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
but are they actually learning about resource management or just about how much some dude is having fun? granted we learned how to fight space battles and that hasn't been too useful (until space force anyway), but we weren't having to experience through some screaming dude (your theater experience may vary)
posted by numaner at 10:54 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by numaner at 10:54 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
With or without surreal algorithm chasing, it's weird to hear the standard patter come into kids gameplay. I was talking with another dad about hearing little kids say "don't forget to like and subscribe!" even after they watched just a few videos.
But oh goodness, there are some weird and terrible videos that seem to be generated algorithmically. Pop Characters + Nursery Rhyme (actual song or just cadence) + props is a common one. There was a post on Weird Kids YouTube, where videos also included these characters with AK-47s or something, because why shouldn't Elsa have a gun? I wondered if these were intended as "subversive" messages, trying to cater to "American" audiences by animators in other countries who thought "What's more American than guns?" -- but drinking bleach? Yeah, that sounds like an attempt to cause kids to injure themselves or others.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:58 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
But oh goodness, there are some weird and terrible videos that seem to be generated algorithmically. Pop Characters + Nursery Rhyme (actual song or just cadence) + props is a common one. There was a post on Weird Kids YouTube, where videos also included these characters with AK-47s or something, because why shouldn't Elsa have a gun? I wondered if these were intended as "subversive" messages, trying to cater to "American" audiences by animators in other countries who thought "What's more American than guns?" -- but drinking bleach? Yeah, that sounds like an attempt to cause kids to injure themselves or others.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:58 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Does anyone know of any research being done on the YouTube’s algo’s tendency to radicalize people?
Erza Klein recently interviewed Zeynep Tufekci:
Tufekci is a New York Times columnist and a professor at the University of North Carolina. She’s also one of the clearest thinkers around on how digital platforms work, how their algorithms understand and shape our preferences, and what the consequences are for society.
They spend a good chunk of the interview on radicalization via YouTube and Facebook.
posted by hambone at 11:00 AM on August 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
Erza Klein recently interviewed Zeynep Tufekci:
Tufekci is a New York Times columnist and a professor at the University of North Carolina. She’s also one of the clearest thinkers around on how digital platforms work, how their algorithms understand and shape our preferences, and what the consequences are for society.
They spend a good chunk of the interview on radicalization via YouTube and Facebook.
posted by hambone at 11:00 AM on August 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
Part of the algorithm is to take things right to the edge where acceptable taste tapers off where the super-loyal weirdos hang out, wait a bit for things to desensitize and normalize, then move the edge a bit further out. There are vast wastelands between the middle of the 2008 road and where some media giants are aiming their cameras in 2018.
EDIT: It's cheap of me to use the word media. Everything has slid down, down, down as the internet technologies have enabled various companies to automate this sort of thing. It's just chasing the lowest common denominator for the largest market, and that isn't specifically a media phenomenon.
posted by Cris E at 11:03 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
EDIT: It's cheap of me to use the word media. Everything has slid down, down, down as the internet technologies have enabled various companies to automate this sort of thing. It's just chasing the lowest common denominator for the largest market, and that isn't specifically a media phenomenon.
posted by Cris E at 11:03 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
"I’d no sooner let my kids browse YouTube than late-night cable in the 80s."
Your parents don't allow you to surf late-night cable, you do it when they aren't looking.
This algorithim chasing seems very appropriately capitalist thing to happen. It's like how capitalism itself is driven to perpetuate itself above all else, profit over people. If people want something good to be done for people, they have to prove to capitalists there is a way to make money doing so. If youtubers want to support themselves making content, they must do what the algorithm says, not what would be good or entertaining to people. Both youtube and capitalism have this bizarre expectation that ultimately their goals will be pushing and promoting what people want, but really it just promotes what people will do (in this case, mostly what things will be clicked on, how long will people stay on that page, and what ads can be sold there), regardless of quality or if it's good or bad for a community.
"YouTube is planning to release a new version of its YouTube Kids app that will do away with algorithmically suggested videos and will only display videos from channels that a team of YouTube curators handpicks, a source familiar with YouTube’s plans told BuzzFeed News."
Oh boy, this will be owns youtube drama shit show. There will be myriad creators left out in the cold once youtube doesn't allow them into the cabal, with standard youtube opaqueness in regards to who, how, and what is allowed on it. I look forward to the channel allowed in the kids circle that starts stealing content or ideas from the channels who are not.
"Forget regulation. We need to nationalize the motherfuckers.
The only problem with google and amazon and the rest of the tech giants is that they're being run by moneyed interests for moneyed interests. Put them under democratic control and they'll stop being a curse and go back to being a blessing."
I support this concept. There are plenty of businesses right now monopolizing services that end up being greater than themselves and which they really start to lose the right to control. A social network to connect friends, families, and peers. A short messaging service. A place for people to upload their art, whether it be music, video, performance, or old fashioned visual art. Ideally there'd be a way for these things to be managed without corporate or government controls overriding the global populace of users. These services are more useful the more global they are, it would be wonderful to have one global nexus to go to if you want to hear random idiot chatter, watch videos someone made, or find someone you know to catch up with -- in ways that aren't about companies exploiting you or harvesting your personal information to profit from and leverage against people.
Never going to happen on capitalist planet, though.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:19 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Your parents don't allow you to surf late-night cable, you do it when they aren't looking.
This algorithim chasing seems very appropriately capitalist thing to happen. It's like how capitalism itself is driven to perpetuate itself above all else, profit over people. If people want something good to be done for people, they have to prove to capitalists there is a way to make money doing so. If youtubers want to support themselves making content, they must do what the algorithm says, not what would be good or entertaining to people. Both youtube and capitalism have this bizarre expectation that ultimately their goals will be pushing and promoting what people want, but really it just promotes what people will do (in this case, mostly what things will be clicked on, how long will people stay on that page, and what ads can be sold there), regardless of quality or if it's good or bad for a community.
"YouTube is planning to release a new version of its YouTube Kids app that will do away with algorithmically suggested videos and will only display videos from channels that a team of YouTube curators handpicks, a source familiar with YouTube’s plans told BuzzFeed News."
Oh boy, this will be owns youtube drama shit show. There will be myriad creators left out in the cold once youtube doesn't allow them into the cabal, with standard youtube opaqueness in regards to who, how, and what is allowed on it. I look forward to the channel allowed in the kids circle that starts stealing content or ideas from the channels who are not.
"Forget regulation. We need to nationalize the motherfuckers.
The only problem with google and amazon and the rest of the tech giants is that they're being run by moneyed interests for moneyed interests. Put them under democratic control and they'll stop being a curse and go back to being a blessing."
I support this concept. There are plenty of businesses right now monopolizing services that end up being greater than themselves and which they really start to lose the right to control. A social network to connect friends, families, and peers. A short messaging service. A place for people to upload their art, whether it be music, video, performance, or old fashioned visual art. Ideally there'd be a way for these things to be managed without corporate or government controls overriding the global populace of users. These services are more useful the more global they are, it would be wonderful to have one global nexus to go to if you want to hear random idiot chatter, watch videos someone made, or find someone you know to catch up with -- in ways that aren't about companies exploiting you or harvesting your personal information to profit from and leverage against people.
Never going to happen on capitalist planet, though.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:19 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Papa Jake posted his first box fort video. It went viral, and he’s made almost exclusively box fort videos since.
I was all set to snark with extreme prejudice at this but then I was like well at least it's not reaction videos or some painfully earnest 19 year old mainlining his political opinions directly into kids' brains so now I'm like YOU GO BOX FORT GUY fully knowing that he's probably going to milkshake duck all over the place within the next month or so, if he hasn't already
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:45 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was all set to snark with extreme prejudice at this but then I was like well at least it's not reaction videos or some painfully earnest 19 year old mainlining his political opinions directly into kids' brains so now I'm like YOU GO BOX FORT GUY fully knowing that he's probably going to milkshake duck all over the place within the next month or so, if he hasn't already
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:45 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
"I’d no sooner let my kids browse YouTube than late-night cable in the 80s."
Late night cable in the '80s was awesome! MTV still wasn't a thing everywhere so NiteFlight showed indie, rap, and metal music videos (the big hits were shown on countdown on Saturday mornings, after the cartoons) and/or old karate movies and other weird stuff. USA Up All Nite with Rhonda showed the most ridiculous horror movies with all the NSFW stuff cut out, so you had to appreciate the plot points. Some were great, others not so much. Ridiculous stuff like the Toxic Avenger and Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Joe Bob Briggs on TBS hosted horror movies (I think, mostly). Most major channels went off air or showed infomercials.
Its hard to understand, but the streams were so limited, the weird stuff wasn't excluded it was just shunted off into the undesirable hours. In many ways, I think the YouTube/late night cable tv analogy is pretty good. I mean Rhonda and Joe Bob for all intents and purposes added little to the movies other than bits of trivia and pop culture references and a host to tie loose strings together. I get the feeling that the most popular YouTube stars are doing the same stuff for slightly less pay on a different medium.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:15 PM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Late night cable in the '80s was awesome! MTV still wasn't a thing everywhere so NiteFlight showed indie, rap, and metal music videos (the big hits were shown on countdown on Saturday mornings, after the cartoons) and/or old karate movies and other weird stuff. USA Up All Nite with Rhonda showed the most ridiculous horror movies with all the NSFW stuff cut out, so you had to appreciate the plot points. Some were great, others not so much. Ridiculous stuff like the Toxic Avenger and Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Joe Bob Briggs on TBS hosted horror movies (I think, mostly). Most major channels went off air or showed infomercials.
Its hard to understand, but the streams were so limited, the weird stuff wasn't excluded it was just shunted off into the undesirable hours. In many ways, I think the YouTube/late night cable tv analogy is pretty good. I mean Rhonda and Joe Bob for all intents and purposes added little to the movies other than bits of trivia and pop culture references and a host to tie loose strings together. I get the feeling that the most popular YouTube stars are doing the same stuff for slightly less pay on a different medium.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:15 PM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
but are they actually learning about resource management or just about how much some dude is having fun?
FWIW, I didn't learn shit about resource management from D&D, we just wanted to kill monsters. Sure, if we took it book-seriously and did it "right," we might have learned something, but you couldn't tell us that. I probably learned more resource management by rationing smart bombs in Defender.
posted by rhizome at 12:16 PM on August 29, 2018
FWIW, I didn't learn shit about resource management from D&D, we just wanted to kill monsters. Sure, if we took it book-seriously and did it "right," we might have learned something, but you couldn't tell us that. I probably learned more resource management by rationing smart bombs in Defender.
posted by rhizome at 12:16 PM on August 29, 2018
> GoblinHoney:
"Oh boy, this will be owns youtube drama shit show."
It's been almost half a year and things seem fine. It's an opt-in setting.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 12:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Oh boy, this will be owns youtube drama shit show."
It's been almost half a year and things seem fine. It's an opt-in setting.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 12:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
When I finally encounter the 'Manson Finger Family' video, that's when I'm walking away from YouTube. Not even going to wait to see 'Pinky' Fromme.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:41 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zaixfeep at 12:41 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Erza Klein recently interviewed Zeynep Tufekci
Came here to mention her, and also to say, this really is a thing. Just watching a couple videos from Kessler and Cantwell (The Crying Nazi) back before the D.C. Nazi rally put a bunch of white nationalist and Nazi shit in my recommendation engine, almost immediately. Fucking ridiculous.
Of course they know about this. In point of fact, these companies must comply with German law regarding Nazi propaganda, and do so for users whose location is Germany.
posted by cj_ at 1:41 PM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Came here to mention her, and also to say, this really is a thing. Just watching a couple videos from Kessler and Cantwell (The Crying Nazi) back before the D.C. Nazi rally put a bunch of white nationalist and Nazi shit in my recommendation engine, almost immediately. Fucking ridiculous.
Of course they know about this. In point of fact, these companies must comply with German law regarding Nazi propaganda, and do so for users whose location is Germany.
posted by cj_ at 1:41 PM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Dan Olson from Folding Ideas covered this a while back too (responding to Bridle's original Medium article). He brings in an additional troubling angle, that YT appears to have colluded to enable these bot channels/networks (discussed at ~12:30).
posted by SoundInhabitant at 2:46 PM on August 29, 2018
posted by SoundInhabitant at 2:46 PM on August 29, 2018
It's fucking weird what happens when you watch something outside your usual wheelhouse. I would happily mainline Disney nerd videos all day (don't judge, it's a semiotics thing), but I watched a couple videos about a total other topic (before realizing the creator was a misogynist shitlord) and suddenly THAT GUY EVERYWHERE. You wanna watch this video by that guy? How about this one? This one? Huh? Huh?! Yo, algorithm, chill. I have not actually become a totally different person after watching a single video, nor do I want to. So, like, calm your Bayesian tits?
I'm immensely lucky to have a child with the same single-minded obsessive steak that I have. He doesn't search YouTube for new things, he does not click on recommends, he knows what he wants (Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom forever) and he does not deviate from that mission. So, I can actually let him use YouTube without watching him like a hawk. He still doesn't know that Minecraft exists and I will cut the first motherfucker that spoils that.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:29 PM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm immensely lucky to have a child with the same single-minded obsessive steak that I have. He doesn't search YouTube for new things, he does not click on recommends, he knows what he wants (Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom forever) and he does not deviate from that mission. So, I can actually let him use YouTube without watching him like a hawk. He still doesn't know that Minecraft exists and I will cut the first motherfucker that spoils that.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:29 PM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
This is a qualitatively different phenomenon from television entertainers of the past like Mr. Rogers or Bill Nye—instead of appealing to human producers or an audience of children, YouTubers are bending to the whims of an algorithm.That a room full of television executives is distinguishable from an algorithm is plausible, but not obvious.
What sets youtube celebrities apart from Mr. Rogers and Bill Nye is that in the later cases one has hand-picked the absolute peak of the genre from among those operating within a very unusual public media institution. A more fair question is, "what sets childrens' youtube celebrities apart from He-Man?"
posted by eotvos at 11:49 AM on August 30, 2018
This is a qualitatively different phenomenon from television entertainers of the past like Mr. Rogers or Bill Nye
Today we have Steven Universe and Star vs Forces of Evil (no relation to Ash vs Evil Dead). Daniel Tiger is Mr. Rogers with stripes. They're currently trying to reimagine Thundercats and She-Ra to massive opposition, but New Duck Tales is working. Spongebob is unstoppable and Bert, Ernie, BigBird and Cookie will never die or grow old/up. And I'll be parked in front of my TV for the series finale of Adventure Time. YouTube is failing miserably at "replacing Childrens TV". Good.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:18 PM on August 30, 2018
Today we have Steven Universe and Star vs Forces of Evil (no relation to Ash vs Evil Dead). Daniel Tiger is Mr. Rogers with stripes. They're currently trying to reimagine Thundercats and She-Ra to massive opposition, but New Duck Tales is working. Spongebob is unstoppable and Bert, Ernie, BigBird and Cookie will never die or grow old/up. And I'll be parked in front of my TV for the series finale of Adventure Time. YouTube is failing miserably at "replacing Childrens TV". Good.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:18 PM on August 30, 2018
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Whaaaaaaat
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:36 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]