In Episode I we meet Anakin: "The Rise of Skywalker"
July 30, 2020 11:13 PM   Subscribe

Why Every Star Wars Film Has The Wrong Title (1 minute TikTok video) Or watch it here on Twitter if you don't like TikTok.
posted by straight (106 comments total) 33 users marked this as a favorite
 
He makes a convincing argument
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:19 PM on July 30 [18 favorites]


Not at all incorrect!
posted by potrzebie at 11:48 PM on July 30 [2 favorites]


Sorry, I only watch Vines.
posted by The Tensor at 11:57 PM on July 30 [20 favorites]


Cherrypicking the reasons, but...I'll allow it.

Also, permission to derail? I finally just watched The Rise of Skywalker, and it's not nearly as bad as everyone says. Not only that, I thought it was perhaps the best of the trilogy. I mean, all three of the films are kind of meh for different reasons (Rogue One is perhaps the only film in the SW canon that isn't kind of meh), and all of the movies have a real problem with incoherence/plot holes. But ROS was one of the more coherent films in the series. A lot of it doesn't work--Oscar Isaac is a fine actor but the filmmakers don't know if they want him to be a hero hunk or comic relief, so they split the difference and he ends up being just annoying. The trip to the snowy Tibet planet to meet a Power Ranger is dull and unnecessary. But the action scenes are well done, and the Ray/Kylo storyline,as well as the climax, I found to be perfectly solid.
posted by zardoz at 12:00 AM on July 31 [10 favorites]


Alright, format sucks. But this is really funny. I love it. I don't use TikTok or Twitter or Insta, so thanks for posting this.
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:01 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]


zardoz, I feel like the same as you about ROS. I thought it was pretty fun and mostly what I want out of Star Wars. Although I liked the ideas behind it, I hated the casino scenes in TLJ, but I liked the Power Ranger Snow Planet even though there wasn't any real meaning outside of plot hijinx. I think it helps to not be passionate about it and to enjoy the space opera.

ANYWAY cool video.
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:05 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]


When you're right, you're right.

(flagged the two ROS comments as offensive)
posted by ominous_paws at 12:50 AM on July 31 [28 favorites]


VI
III
V
II
IV
VIII
I
VII
IX
posted by fairmettle at 1:02 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]


It's hard to disagree with him on this but RoS soured me on Star Wars so much that I don't really care much at this point.
posted by octothorpe at 4:11 AM on July 31 [26 favorites]


Yeah, it's not his fault and tbh I'm happy never having to care ever again about the coherency of the saga.

But I like stuff like this, and the guy's right!
posted by cendawanita at 4:38 AM on July 31 [3 favorites]


I remember actually groaning audibly when they first mentioned the midichlorians (sp?). That's when I mostly gave up on caring about SW. As a guy who saw the first flick in the theater as a lad of seven years old, I dutifully paid to see them all in the theater, except for Solo. I only saw the films in the second and third trilogy one time, though.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:42 AM on July 31 [9 favorites]


these are all good, but why not simply refer to each film as Star Wars? That way you don't have to worry about which title matches, and they're all pretty much about Wars between the Stars. Some of them do take place on planets or moons, of course, so they could also be renamed Star, Planet, or Moon Wars. It would be a LOT easier this way!

"Hey girl, wanna come over and watch Star Planet Or Moon Wars tonight?"
"girlfriend you KNOW i do. which one are you thinking"
"The one where the little guy gets all fucked up from lava and screams as he burns"
"YES girl i will bring the chardonnay"
posted by Greg Nog at 4:57 AM on July 31 [39 favorites]


Solo was my favorite of the new movies. I will readily concede that Rouge One had the best story but Solo was the most fun. Yeah, it was a little hackneyed, but Chewie! Lando! Space Pirates! Stakes that don't some massive planet-killing space station or entitled Jedi with parental issues! I even thought the Darth Maul appearance was an oh-so-perfect 1980s cartoon villain reveal that was just bonkers enough to work (and leave me wanting more, but alas)

RoS also left me cold. I spent much of the time in the theater comparing it with She Ra and wondering how much better Star Wars would be if Noelle Stevenson were at the helm. And then a couple months later I had my answer (Season 5 was awesome)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:15 AM on July 31 [14 favorites]


I mean, he's not wrong.
posted by Chocomog at 5:23 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]


Rouge One

Whatever other critiques aside, I would watch the heck out of this Star Wars/La Cage au Folles mash-up.
posted by eviemath at 5:23 AM on July 31 [41 favorites]


Lacage Auxfolles would serve as a perfectly fine Star Wars name.
posted by chavenet at 5:43 AM on July 31 [20 favorites]


Hey, fairmettle, your Adam Driver ASCII art light saber up there seems to have gone wrong somehow.

Maybe the <blockquote> tag or <pre> tag would help? :7)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:20 AM on July 31 [4 favorites]


I finally just watched The Rise of Skywalker, and it's not nearly as bad as everyone says.

I thought it was pretty fun and mostly what I want out of Star Wars.

Solo was my favorite of the new movies.

I definitely picked the wrong time to stop sniffing glue.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:31 AM on July 31 [25 favorites]


they're all pretty much about Wars between the Stars.

“Here’s some money, go see a Star War
posted by rh at 6:32 AM on July 31 [8 favorites]


I even thought the Darth Maul appearance was an oh-so-perfect 1980s cartoon villain reveal that was just bonkers enough to work (and leave me wanting more, but alas)

If you enjoyed the reveal that Maul was alive and busy taking control of the galactic underworld, I invite you to watch the Clone Wars and Rebels TV shows! While superficially aimed at kids, they're legit good and both have sub-plots concerning what Maul's been up to (trying to get revenge on the Jedi AND Sith).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 6:34 AM on July 31 [5 favorites]


Is this where I can say all the individual names sucked?

Also I stand by my take on ROS.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:40 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]


Clone Wars has the most sympathetic female role in the whole cannon. Indeed arguably, Asoka Tano is the main hero of that series. Well worth a look. Her payoff, along with that of Rex, is well-earned.

Tano comes back at key points in Rebels too, and so gives a glimpse of how important she is as well.

She's finally going to get her due in the second season of The Madalorian.
posted by bonehead at 7:22 AM on July 31 [10 favorites]


What's the deal with Luke Skywalker? He doesn't walk on the sky at all! They should call him Luke Groundwalker.
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 7:47 AM on July 31 [8 favorites]


> Also, permission to derail? I finally just watched The Rise of Skywalker, and it's not nearly as bad as everyone says.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is just possible you are not the best judge of cinema, Zardoz.
posted by AndrewStephens at 7:49 AM on July 31 [50 favorites]


She's finally going to get her due in the second season of The Madalorian.

wait what
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:08 AM on July 31


Well, we don't know for sure that she'll get her due, but she'll definitely be in Season 2.
posted by mstokes650 at 8:13 AM on July 31 [4 favorites]


The titles of VII and IX should be "The director pisses on everything setup in the last film"
posted by cmfletcher at 8:21 AM on July 31 [8 favorites]


Between Ahsoka and the rumors of Boba Fett I'm actually a little concerned that Season 2 of the Mandalorian will get bogged down in fanservice, which was IMO the only major failing of Solo and something that Season 1 had (mostly) avoided.

Even Rogue One, though excellent, has the one major flaw of feeling the inexplicable need to end like two minutes before A New Hope starts. Star Wars is plenty big and you really do not need to make an entire galaxy feel like this small town where everybody knows everybody else (and/or is related!) and everything connects. But Star Wars is now in the somewhat odd position of being made primarily by Star Wars fans, and it seems to be hard for them to resist the chance to put in their favorite toys from the earlier parts.
posted by mstokes650 at 8:26 AM on July 31 [9 favorites]


There seems to be a mixup-- the title of episode XI should clearly be "The Star Wars Holiday Special".
posted by phooky at 8:28 AM on July 31 [8 favorites]


the inexplicable need to end like two minutes before A New Hope starts

That's the best part
(spoilers for both, I guess)
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 8:50 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]


I went in skeptical, but other than a visceral "wait - no!" feeling when I saw The Empire Strikes Back over an image of Kylo Ren, he had me by episode 3.

these are all good, but why not simply refer to each film as Star Wars?

Here's some money, go see a Star War.
posted by Mchelly at 8:57 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]


The Rise of Skywalker is even worse the second time around.
posted by vibrotronica at 8:57 AM on July 31 [5 favorites]


If you enjoyed the reveal that Maul was alive and busy taking control of the galactic underworld, I invite you to watch the Clone Wars and Rebels TV shows!

I haven't watched them yet, though I was vaguely aware that Darth Maul had already reappeared alive in them prior to seeing Solo, and that knowledge made his appearance in Solo even more fun. Having grown up watching tons of cartoon adaptations of things, I always appreciate it when cannon "flows upwards" as it were because it happens so rarely.

Janine's haircut and Slimer were the best parts of Ghostbusters II.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:09 AM on July 31 [5 favorites]


As long as we're talking about this I'd like to reiterate that Rise of Skywalker was dogshit.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:15 AM on July 31 [9 favorites]


Rise of Skywalker was fine. The Last Jedi was fine. Force Awakens was the least of the new trilogy, but was still fine.

I grew up with the original trilogy (born the year New Hope came out), and I just don't understand the wailing and teeth-gnashing, the nitpicking and rage. The original trilogy was fine. It seemed amazing because you were a kid when you watched it. All of the things you don't like about the new trilogy were present in the original.
posted by skullhead at 9:22 AM on July 31 [14 favorites]


I still don't understand why people get so worked up about the Star Wars movies. They are all fun in their own way, and they all have great parts and terrible parts (yes, even the ones from your childhood that you have idealized in your memory). Some are better than others, but I simply don't understand the hatred and sense of ownership that some people feel towards these movies and characters.

Each of the nine movies has at least one iconic moment that adds to the story as a whole. Each of the nine movies has at least one moment that is corny, nonsensical, or just plain dumb.

My only real complaint about the last three movies is that it is obvious that they didn't work out the overarching story and themes of the trilogy before they started. (For all the issues with the prequels, at least you knew where the story was headed.) But that's a relatively minor complaint - I still enjoyed all three movies. And Rogue One and Solo.

I love Star Wars, and I'm happy for them to continue making mediocre-to-good Star Wars media forever. I will continue to watch them and enjoy them.

On preview, what skullhead said.

[Also, the FPP is totally right. Very funny.]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:28 AM on July 31 [7 favorites]


I still don't understand why people get so worked up about the Star Wars movies. They are all fun in their own way, and they all have great parts and terrible parts (yes, even the ones from your childhood that you have idealized in your memory). Some are better than others, but I simply don't understand the hatred and sense of ownership that some people feel towards these movies and characters.

Basically because it's fun and a shared cultural experience. In the grand scheme of things I of course know these things don't matter, but being invested in a story and spectacle, with a bunch if friends who are equally invested, is enjoyable. And the teeth-gnashing about bad elements is just as much a part of that as the gushing about good elements (see also Star Trek, Buffy, and really any other fervent pop culture fandom.)
posted by Navelgazer at 9:33 AM on July 31 [6 favorites]


We could do the "change one letter" thing.

The Phantom Menach -- the Republic is confounded by a river that is in Bavaria, but also a long time ahead in a galaxy far far away.

Attack of the Cloves -- Obi Wan gets too much in his eggnog, can't find nutmeg, has a bad holiday season.

Revenge of the Sitz -- Anakin gets a bad rash, then the cure makes things worse! Hydrospanner therapy not advised.

A New Pope -- the guest starring role by Pope Francis alienated a lot of fans, but everyone liked the light saber duels.

The Empire Strikes Bach -- Palpatine, advised by John Williams, tries to destroy select classical composers.

Return of the Judi -- Judi Dench reprises her role from The Chronicles of Riddick.

The Forge Awakens -- a documentary about making light sabers. And droids. And droids with light sabers.

The Lost Jedi -- Rey spends the entire film wandering around an island doing pointless, irrelevant things. Written and directed by J. J. Abrams.

The Rose of Skywalker -- this crossover with the Takarazuka Revue puzzled fans, but the dance numbers were amazing!
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:48 AM on July 31 [42 favorites]


That off-screen "the dead have spoken" reveal of the Emperor was pants. What's the point of having a surprise return of the Emperor if you give it away before the movie even begins? That's like identifying Vader as Luke's father in the opening crawl of Empire Strikes Back.

The story should have been about finding some macguffin associated with the emperor that's sealed away in a hidden sanctum. Despite their personal doubts, both Rey and Kylo Ren think they need this macguffin in order to level up and save their friends / crush the resistance. They spend the entire movie independently trying to locate it occasionally crossing paths, then they both get to the sanctum and reluctantly help each other avoid the tons of death traps that the emperor has set. They finally get to the room with the macguffin, but before the audience can find out who will take control of it, a sniveling General Hux surprises both of them and takes the macguffin for himself. He's immediately imbued with tremendous power, but just as he's about to settle some old scores with Kylo and take out Rey, he's suddenly consumed by Palpatine's spirit and it's revealed that the macguffin was just a trap to find the emperor a new, worthy vessel. Hux not withstanding, the Emperor has been reborn. Cue simultaneous lightsabre battle and orbiting pew pew spaceship explosionfest with John Williams score.

It's that easy.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:05 AM on July 31 [23 favorites]


Janine's haircut and Slimer were the best parts of Ghostbusters II.

I dunno, that Bobby Brown song was kind of a jam (though Bobby Brown ended up being an atrocious human being, which makes it kind of hard to reflect back on now).
posted by thivaia at 10:07 AM on July 31 [4 favorites]


That off-screen "the dead have spoken" reveal of the Emperor was pants. What's the point of having a surprise return of the Emperor if you give it away before the movie even begins? That's like identifying Vader as Luke's father in the opening crawl of Empire Strikes Back.

It's worse than that—the event referenced in the crawl happened in Fortnight.
posted by The Tensor at 10:13 AM on July 31 [3 favorites]


Just so Zardoz doesn't completely feel dumped on by Internet weirdos I'll take a stand - Rise of the Skywalker is fine and certainly no worse then the other films in that trilogy. Its hand holding fanservice but as far as I'm concerned that's the lesson that the studios learned from the prequel trilogy - older die hard & fickle Star Wars fans don't want original content they want the same but different from their movies. It an impossible task to appease that audience. When they can't get what they want or don't get it in the way they want, it spawns hundreds of articles and videos of all the things wrong with the films, how to correct them and how female characters introduced in the film series somehow ruined collective childhoods. All of the Star Wars films are pretty clunky popcorn films which is fine as they don't really aspire to greatness as they are there to make money for a franchise and not to create a religion or revolutionise cinema. Shared experience or not, Star Wars gatekeeping is pretty toxic - you can dislike a film but man things get out of hand quick when any of the Star Wars films get talked about and you have the "wrong" opinion.

TLDR & QFT - "I still don't understand why people get so worked up about the Star Wars movies."

FWIW it is the contemporary TV productions, animated and now live action, where the actual decent and more importantly accessible Star Wars content is being made. Mandalorian, Clone Wars and especially Rebels are the Star Wars content my adolescent self would have ate up.

As for the movie Zardoz... I would argue if you think it is not one of the more interesting if wonderfully flawed films from a major studio and a decent director in the 70s you might not be the best judge of movies. YMMV.

Now get off my sand dune, nerf-herders!
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:21 AM on July 31 [9 favorites]


I still don't understand why people get so worked up about the Star Wars movies. They are all fun in their own way, and they all have great parts and terrible parts (yes, even the ones from your childhood that you have idealized in your memory). Some are better than others, but I simply don't understand the hatred and sense of ownership that some people feel towards these movies and characters.

Yeah, you dorks should switch to watching sports where people can just enjoy all the good plays and shrug their shoulders and move on when something doesn't go so well for their team.
posted by straight at 10:22 AM on July 31 [10 favorites]


Star Wars is plenty big and you really do not need to make an entire galaxy feel like this small town where everybody knows everybody else (and/or is related!) and everything connects. But Star Wars is now in the somewhat odd position of being made primarily by Star Wars fans, and it seems to be hard for them to resist the chance to put in their favorite toys from the earlier parts.

You are so right. Star Wars (subsequently retitled A New Hope) was so successful partly because it dropped you in media res and expected you to catch up. In the first ten minutes, we see a small vulnerable ship attacked and captured by a larger one, while a mysterious figure in white does something to a robot; the figure in white is then captured and threatened by a sinister figure encased in black armour, and there is some talk of princesses and senates and diplomatic missions, while the robot and his fellow mechanical companion escape.

It is all very overwhelming, but decades of additions and clarifications have made clear that the black-armoured villain is actually the father to the captive woman. And the two robots? Well, he built one of them on the planet they are above (his home planet), while the other helped him win a major space battle as a child. The robots, of course, make good their escape and wind up with the captor’s other child, twin to his daughter has just captured; they are sold to his son a few metres from where his mother is buried. Soon his son is mentored by his old teacher, and within ninety minutes of screen time, the son goes on to win a space battle remarkably similar to his father’s with his plucky robot assisting.

It’s hard to recollect or even believe now, but Star Wars was nominated for an Oscar for Best Picture.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:28 AM on July 31 [23 favorites]


She's finally going to get her due in the second season of The Madalorian.

Wow, I had no idea. Ahsoka has one of the most interesting arcs in Star Wars canon so this is a really good excuse to finally watch The Mandalorian.
posted by simmering octagon at 10:58 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]


So should I watch Clone Wars or no
posted by ominous_paws at 11:16 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]


Yeah, you dorks should switch to watching sports where people can just enjoy all the good plays and shrug their shoulders and move on when something doesn't go so well for their team.

You misunderstand me. I am a super dork who has been a major Star Wars fan basically my entire life (and hate sports). I just don't expect the movies to be Citizen Kane, but rather appreciate them and enjoy them as flawed popcorn adventure movies. And I don't understand how people can believe themselves to be die-hard Star Wars fans while actively disliking 7 out of the 9 movies.

That off-screen "the dead have spoken" reveal of the Emperor was pants. What's the point of having a surprise return of the Emperor if you give it away before the movie even begins? That's like identifying Vader as Luke's father in the opening crawl of Empire Strikes Back.

I basically agree with this -- the Palpatine story line was dumb. That said, you know that they couldn't resist spoiling the Palpatine reveal in the trailers. So if they had set up the reveal correctly as you suggest, we would have all waited half the movie for the characters to figure out something we already knew the whole time. So, dumb as the opening crawl was, at least we all started the movie knowing it.

Basically because it's fun and a shared cultural experience. In the grand scheme of things I of course know these things don't matter, but being invested in a story and spectacle, with a bunch if friends who are equally invested, is enjoyable. And the teeth-gnashing about bad elements is just as much a part of that as the gushing about good elements (see also Star Trek, Buffy, and really any other fervent pop culture fandom.)

I guess that's valid. I see a lot of people talk about the bad elements without ever mentioning the good elements, so I guess I just find that confusing. I prefer to think of them as essentially good movies with some bad parts. But I think it's horrible to see the abuse that has been directed at Rian Johnson, J.J. Abrams, Daisy Ridley, Kelly Marie Tran, and others. [Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anyone here is doing that. It's just disappointing.]

So should I watch Clone Wars or no

Yes. It's pretty great.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:30 AM on July 31 [3 favorites]


Even Rogue One, though excellent, has the one major flaw of feeling the inexplicable need to end like two minutes before A New Hope starts.

This is a lot of why the prequels didn't work for me.
In my head canon, the Empire had been around for ever.
Like, generations had been oppressed by the Dark Side.

But as it turns out, it didn't even make two decades?
That's not an Empire, that's a upstart with an ego problem.
posted by madajb at 11:30 AM on July 31 [19 favorites]


So should I watch Clone Wars or no

Do you like really well made media with an intended audience of youngsters? For example, did you like Avatar: The Last Airbender? If so, this might be worth your time.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:45 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]


Jedi is an anagram of Edji
Empire is an anagram of Prime E
Sith is an anagram of .... SHIT
posted by chavenet at 11:51 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]


Sith is an anagram of .... SHIT

SHIT? or HITS?

THIS
SHIT
HITS
SITH

(I really wanted it to make a magic sqaure, but no....
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:22 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]


SHIT? or HITS?

Just a regular Friday night around my house.
posted by chavenet at 12:32 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]


And I don't understand how people can believe themselves to be die-hard Star Wars fans while actively disliking 7 out of the 9 movies.

I mean, have you ever met a Cleveland Browns fan?
posted by straight at 12:43 PM on July 31 [17 favorites]


I mean, have you ever met a Cleveland Browns fan?

OK that's funny. Touché.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:45 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]


So should I watch Clone Wars or no

Yes. And Rebels.
posted by me3dia at 12:56 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]


Wow, he is completely correct. I do remember -- a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away -- thinking that Attack of the Clones made no sense as a title. Then, of course, I saw the actual film and discovered that the title was the least of their problems. (Note: I don't mean to say I dislike Attack of the Clones, merely that it is terrible.)

The Force Awakens is a great JJ Abrams title (in that it's terribly evocative but doesn't mean anything). I remember that I really liked it when I saw it in the theaters, but I tried rewatching it a year later in my living room and was so bored I had to turn it off.

Clone Wars is great! It actually sells you on Anakin Skywalker. No, more, it sold me on the Anakin/Padme romance. And it's got a lot of Jedi doing Jedi stuff, which makes you realize how little time the trilogies spend on Force stuff?
posted by grandiloquiet at 1:04 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]


For all the argumenting and hillabulation on the movies, the Mandalorian is for my $9.99, the best SW thingy to come out in the last decades. The movies, sure, but the long form TV is where the best version of the stories has been for more than a few whiles. Mando comes closest to capturing the same space western, 30s serial lightning as the original Lucas productions. But Clone Wars and Rebels are great too.

I will stipulate that Rogue One crosses this bar too, but in the clothes of a 1950s war movie.

Aside from October though, the sfnal thing I'm waiting for is not the next SW property (Duuuuuune).
posted by bonehead at 1:27 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]


I do remember -- a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away -- thinking that Attack of the Clones made no sense as a title.

Usually in "Attack of..." titles the titular attackers--crab monsters, giant leeches, killer tomatoes, lederhosen zombies, 50 foot women--are the bad guys, but I think in "...Clones" they're sort of the good guys?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:03 PM on July 31


Rogue One is a fantastic film - a notch better than the original trilogy, Revenge of the Sith, or the third trilogy all of which are fine but not great cinema except as VFX landmarks - and more fun than Empire Strikes Back which is the only one good enough to qualify as Culturally Significant Cinema.

There is a problem, though: early (pre-KOTOR) Star Wars video games except X-Wing and Tie Fighter were largely trash. Actually that’s being too kind: they were dogshit, through and through. The single exception outside of the aforementioned hardcore space dogfighting sims were Dark Forces and Jedi Knight. Rogue One irrevocably demolishes Kyle Katarn’s origin story - in particular that amazing opening level of Dark Forces where you’re taking down an Imperial Base on your own while pants-shittingly outgunned and outnumbered (this was also the free demo level)...and I’m sorry, but I can’t get past that. It was the first Star Wars game actually worth adding to the canon, and it would’ve been relatively trivial to modify Rogue One to not stomp all over it without taking anything important from the movie (alternately just retcon Kyle Katarn as Latino and change Cassian Andor’s backstory to Stormtrooper Spec Ops turned traitor, and let him go on to play Luke’s right-hand dude for initially rebuilding the Jedi...you’re basically there).

And the Mandalorian is the best Star Wars anything ever made because it’s a fleshed-out Boba Fett fighting Former Space Nazi Werner Herzog over baby Yoda in a spaghetti Western. I know a few Serious Writers who think it’s trash but the Mandalorian is one of those rare cases where the only appropriate response to that kind of hipster BS is fuck your objectively wrong opinion, dude.
posted by Ryvar at 2:12 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]


I feel like Rogue One gets more praise than it deserves, possibly because it was supposed to be the more "adult" SW film (vs. The Force Awakens). It has its moments, but...
--At the beginning of the film, when Krennic arrives to take Erso back to work on the weapons project, one of the soldiers finds a toy stormtrooper doll, presumably dropped by Jyn. Do little girls often play with toy figurines of their hated oppressors?

--When they get to the planet where Erso and the other scientists, and Cassian goes to assassinate Erso, the blind Imwe says something like, "How did his face look? There's a darkness in the Force around someone when they are about to kill." So, did he notice any darkness around himself and his friends in any of the scenes when they were killing tons of stormtroopers, or does the Force only care if you're going to kill a character with a name and their own entry in Wookiepedia?

--The scene of Vader storming the ship at the end was pretty epic and badass, but... he sees these guys running ahead of him with a thumb drive, why doesn't he just Force-grab it, instead of throwing everyone around the room and watching as they relay-race it down the hall? Also, it sort of makes the opening of the original Star Wars sort of ridiculous since Leia is all "we're just a diplomatic ship!" when they were followed from the goddamn battlefield.

Anyway, yeah, they are all pretty silly.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:19 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]


Something that bothered me in The Last Jedi: In the opening space battle scene, the Rebels destroy a First Order Star Destroyer... by dropping bombs on it... in space... from another spaceship... how exactly do bombs work in space again?
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:21 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]


I mean, have you ever met a Cleveland Browns fan?
I'm a Minnesota Vikings fan in the Bay Area, so I used to have to go to sports bars to see their games. Our local sports bar has a contingent of Browns fans. A couple years ago I took my then-three year old daughter to see the Vikings game, both in our jerseys, and the Vikings were playing the Browns. It was a bit crowded and the Browns fans let us sit with them at the big table.

I went in thinking "it's the Browns; easy W" but the Browns crushed the Vikings. Since my daughter cheered when anything exciting happened, the Browns fans loved seeing her cheer for the Browns in her Vikings jersey.

posted by kirkaracha at 2:22 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]


So should I watch Clone Wars or no

Star Wars started turning into shit the moment the demoted Tartakovsky's 2003 Clone Wars to the "Expanded Universe" or whatever it's called, when it was the lynch-pin between episode 2 and episode 3 and had some of the best scenes of the franchise.
posted by mikelieman at 2:24 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]


Ryvar: "fuck your objectively wrong opinion, dude."

Easily applied to almost all Star Wars extended universe criticism. [I saw Star Wars when it came out. My mother made me collect points to see it. It took me more than a month to do enough chores to collect sufficient points to see the film. Way before that I was playing on my street with my friends who had all seen it and just faking that I knew who Obi-Wan Kenobi was, and what a Jedi was, how to use the Force and what Jawas were &c. By the time I got to see it, it was so much bigger a film than I had ever seen (I was 9) I saw it 10 times in the theater thereafter (mostly via birthday parties in 1977/78), most of them at the fabulous Grand Lake in Oakland, CA. Dude, whatever you want to say, Star Wars just rocks.]
posted by chavenet at 2:25 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]


how exactly do bombs work in space again?

Well, you give them a little push out the door and they move until they hit something, just like you see in the movie. It's probably the most realistic thing about space battles where explosions make noise.
posted by vibrotronica at 2:35 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]


some of the best scenes of the franchise.

Rewatching that Mace Windu reminded me of the comments about how Spielberg was a great visual storyteller, where Tartakovsky proves his chops there.

There's also that Asajj Ventress VS Anakin Skywalker fight with the amazing lightsabres in the rain...
posted by mikelieman at 2:36 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]


Do little girls often play with toy figurines of their hated oppressors?

like Ken dolls?

how exactly do bombs work in space again?

This is the sort of dumb shit you have to accept as having always been part of Star Wars.

OG Star Wars: Kenobi goes to turn off the tractor beams. The tractor beam controls are on the "back" side of a pod-thing perched atop a pillar in the middle of a vastly deep chasm. So:

(1) Why do this? What fuckwit would put the controls there? There's a perfectly good normal corridor wall a few meters away.

(2) Even if you concoct some asinine reason why placing it there is necessary, like needing to reconfigure the main deflector array to emit a stream of gorbsplatulon particles, why wouldn't you put a railing there? I get that the empire doesn't much care about its soldiers, but a few kilos of metal costs less than replacing stormtroopers or technicians does.

"This is dumb shit but it looks cool" is near the core of what Star Wars is. "This is dumb shit but it looks like a World War 2 movie" is pretty much the heart and soul of Star Wars.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:40 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]


Something that bothered me in The Last Jedi: In the opening space battle scene, the Rebels destroy a First Order Star Destroyer... by dropping bombs on it... in space... from another spaceship... how exactly do bombs work in space again?

Headcanon: Given that there's gravity in space, but Star Wars ships have antigravity ("repulsors"), the Star Destroyer wasn't in orbit (and therefore free fall), it was hovering.

Also, it sort of makes the opening of the original Star Wars sort of ridiculous since Leia is all "we're just a diplomatic ship!" when they were followed from the goddamn battlefield.

For a fun version of what could have led up to the beginning of Star Wars, check out Episode 2 of the Brian Daley-scripted radio drama.
posted by The Tensor at 3:46 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]


I liked (not loved) the Last Jedi. I thought Rise of Skywalker was a pandering pile of fanservice. YMMV. The Mandalorian was much more enjoyable. And, to stir the shit even further, Picard was far, far better than any of the above. Also, the Expanse rocks. (ducks, runs for cover).
posted by Ber at 4:04 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]


This is a lot of why the prequels didn't work for me.
In my head canon, the Empire had been around for ever.
Like, generations had been oppressed by the Dark Side.

But as it turns out, it didn't even make two decades?
That's not an Empire, that's a upstart with an ego problem.


That's the thing for me really. Each new entry, rather than EXPANDING the feeling of "a GALAXY (big) a long time ago" or whatever you get from watching one of the movies, it SHRINKS it.

Now, some of that is due to just the mechanical fact that in the case of 1-3 movies, each will cast a bigger "shadow" than individual movies when there's 7-9 of them (although, the reason there are 7-9 movies and more all the time has a lot to do with the logic of $$$, so there's a green rot from within the text . . . )

. . . and some of that is the urge to make these perfect little mechanisms in media now where every aspect relates to everything else, and the imaginary work is being done IN the EXPERIENCE of the set of movies (and re-watching to wring meaning out of it) rather than afterwards getting that midnight snack . . .

SW mk 1 slash ep 4 is LOOSE : fill in the blanks with your own stuff. Marcia Lucas will fix it anyway.
posted by Transylvania Metro Android Castle at 4:29 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]


That's the thing for me really. Each new entry, rather than EXPANDING the feeling of "a GALAXY (big) a long time ago" or whatever you get from watching one of the movies, it SHRINKS it.

Totally this. I love Empire and wouldn't trade the Big Reveal for anything, but in hindsight it marks the point when the series changed focus from "fun adventures where anything can happen IN SPACE" to "family drama about Skywalkers IN SPACE". I would have loved to have seen the twelve-movie series, each by different directors, not necessarily following the same characters, which Lucas talked about briefly before he settled on the trilogy-of-trilogies structure.

In my head I think of the period from 1977 to 1980—including the movies, the comics, the newspaper strip, and a few early EU novels—as "The Adventures of Luke Skywalker" (a subtitle they used to put on the book covers). "TAoLS" slowly mutated, over time and with the retitling of Ep. IV, into the "Star Wars" series we know today.
posted by The Tensor at 5:34 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]


And I don't understand how people can believe themselves to be die-hard Star Wars fans while actively disliking 7 out of the 9 movies.

Partly because those 2 of those 9 movies were seminal moments in my youth, and changed what I thought films could be. The third (VI) was amazing to me as a child, but as I’ve grown, I see things about it that cooled my enthusiasm for it, but I can still watch it through the eyes of me as a kid that was enthralled by it.

The rest... damn. With all of the money in the world, with all of the cache and incredibly talented people lining up just to be able to take part, and to make films so mediocre that not only are they not great, they actually undermine the originals and make you feel dumb for having loved them in the first place? I mentioned this before in the fanfare thread, but Star Wars was the first movie I was taken to see. It’s the story that was literally a part of my life through childhood, my twenties (and relocation across the world) with the prequels, and now as an adult. Maybe they just caught lightning with IV and V, but with the exception of Last Jedi, it’s like they actively tried to prove that lightning doesn’t exist.

I loved these movies. Wanting something to be better, to be as good as you know it can be isn’t a sign of a lack of being a fan. It’s pretty much the opposite. And yeah, Rise of Skywalker sucked so badly it made me question why I’d bothered loving arguably the central story that I’ve been following all of my life.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:55 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]


I guess I'm a rarity in seeing The Force Awakens > the rest of the final trilogy, including Rogue One and Solo (which I didn't finish). Force Awakens gave us new, compelling characters, Rey and Ren, and Finn and Poe had potential to be more compelling in following movies. It was well cast and acted. You had a strong sense of who these people were. They had mysterious backstories. SNL had that sketch about Kylo Ren going undercover with his employees, and it worked so well because you just KNEW who that guy was. He was legit scary and funny, tragedy returned as farce.

The scenery had romance. The husk of the Star Destroyer gave you a sense of time and scale. That these huge spaceships weren't just pixels but made of so so many parts that could be scavenged for centuries.

My favorite part of The Last Jedi was the part everyone wanted excised: the excursion on the gambling planet. It reminded me that Star Wars (A New Hope) could go for tangential joy rides, like having the characters get stuck in a trash compactor or flying through an asteroid storm. In theory "subverting expectations" as in TLJ was fine, but it seemed more like "don't give payoffs". The Snoke-Ren relationship was already something to work with, and an advantage of a multi-film series is you can develop the characters and their relationships, but it was just shunted to the side.

Star Trek and Star Wars are still going strong 45-55 years later, but that makes it easy to forget that back then some of the appeal was gee-whiz, this future space technology is awesome! Just seeing space heroes have computers with flashy screens and buttons, communicators that are outdone by any smartphone now, robots that walked around like they're from Boston Dynamics, evoked this romance of the future, which Steve Jobs and others made real and sold back to us, but that we're now so inured to.

A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back were the best followed by Force Awakens. They took time to foreshadow and to linger, to give you a sense of scale of the desert or jungle, or being stuck in a galactic bywater. The Jedi Tree and texts, and crusty Luke teasing earnest Rey wasn't bad. Maybe I should watch Mandalorian, but I think Star Wars from 1977-81 spoke to that time and since then it's been mostly nostalgia.
posted by Schmucko at 6:39 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]


Oh I should add: of course the worst part of TFA was that they basically redid the Death Star for the plot.
posted by Schmucko at 6:40 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]


  1. There are 6 movies.
  2. The first one is called "Star Wars".
  3. The best one is The Empire Strikes Back.
  4. The Force Awakens is the best of the second trilogy.
That is all.
posted by signal at 8:34 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]


This is where I demand again the David-Simon style municipal crime drama, about Cloud City corruption and culture, from the boardrooms to the mean lower decks of extractive industry on the Imperial fringe. More characters than a Russian novel. Funky soundtrack. Second season is all about port regulations and logistics.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:57 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]


What do you mean 6? Surely you are not including the Holiday Special and the ewok movies?
posted by donio at 9:10 PM on July 31


Maybe I should watch Mandalorian

You should! Maybe my favourite Star Wars thing since Knights Of The Old Republic. Not entirely coincidentally watching it does start to feel like playing an RPG, there is a lot of party-gathering and equipment upgrading, but it has a sense of depth and size to the world that felt absent to me in the new trilogy.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:35 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]


Mandalorian's really good. Besides capturing a particular Star Wars aesthetic - if "Mos Eisley Spaceport; a wretched hive of scum and villainy" sends shivers down your spine you'll like it - it passes my 'Does it Hold Up' test in genre / sequel / shared universe stuff**
If they haven't even seen Star Wars at all, or checked out back in the original trilogy somewhere, but they have seen a few samurai movies or westerns along the way, then they'll really enjoy it.
There's no sense of 'am I just watching this as a completionist, I watched the rest so I might as well burn another two hours' in it.

**see, for example, the second Star Trek, or the third Indiana Jones. Never heard of these properties, don't have any insider or nostalgic tidbits to squee at? Still good movies. "That was fun. You say there's a bunch of these?"

Back to the post, I find this person's ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to their newsletter. Maybe one of the reasons I sorta stopped following SW is that the movies / story beats / and yes, titles, stopped being distinct and just became a mishmash of The Unrelated Sentence Fragment, Part 8 of 9. Maybe if Attack of the Clones was the one where the clones attacked, and the introduction of Rey and crew showed us A New Hope, I would have tracked better.
posted by bartleby at 11:05 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]


The Rise of Skywalker has become one of my favorite SW movies, although I never would have thought that after my first viewing. It's not especially deep or complicated, but you do notice and appreciate a lot more things after multiple watches.

The nerds who saw it once and then raced home to slag on it are really missing out.
posted by Chronorin at 2:48 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]


Maybe I should watch Mandalorian

You absolutely should. It’s Star Wars made by people who grew up on Star Wars and understand what people love about Star Wars, absent all of the mucky Skywalker family drama.

It’s all of the background detail universe side stories you’d make up for your Star Wars figures. It still has bits of the Force, but it’s a mystery again and they don’t overwhelm you with it.

Also it’s what we wanted to see Boba Fett doing instead of being unceremoniously killed in a slapstick hokey throwaway scene.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:22 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]


And I don't understand how people can believe themselves to be die-hard Star Wars fans while actively disliking 7 out of the 9 movies.

I solved that by ceasing to be a die-hard Star Wars fan as the series got worse and worse.

Similar to Ghidorah, the first trilogy was incredibly significant to my childhood. My grandfather taking me to see Star Wars just after I turned five, and then dropping by the toy store and buying me a C3-PO action figure, is one of my clearest memories of my preschool years. I used to stalk around the house, arms outstretched, trying to move something with the Force, in case maybe I was a Jedi. And since my father was a terrible person but I thought there was some good left in him somewhere, the movies increasingly resonated with me at ages eight and eleven, when the sequels were released. The writing was clunky sometimes, but the acting was solid, and the three movies together told a compelling story. The villain of the series is brought back to the light and sacrifices himself to save his son. The Ewoks were hokey, but other than that, it's really a very solid trilogy, and everything tied together pretty nicely (especially considering that it clearly wasn't plotted out in advance, whatever Lucas claimed later).

So I was excited to get new Star Wars around the turn of millennium, but the prequels were enormously disappointing. I saw each one once, and never again. Then The Force Awakens showed promise--yes, it was a retread of A New Hope, but it was a lot of fun and, hey, now that we were back on track maybe we could go somewhere interesting with the next ones. But then The Last Jedi was really uneven, and the Rise of Skywalker actively pissed on the parts of the Last Jedi that worked best, and gave up coherent storytelling in exchange for Palpatine popping up out of nowhere and...well, I've complained about the Rise of Skywalker here before.

Anyway, my point is that the prequels were terrible in the ways that almost everyone acknowledges, and the sequel trilogy--even though they had plenty of time for advanced plotting--didn't come anywhere near the kind of thematically coherent conclusion that Return of the Jedi gave us. With infinite budgets and plenty of time, the later Star Wars movies could have surpassed the OT. But only the Force Awakens really even managed to match them. It's really disappointing to a lot of us. The Last Jedi failed in interesting ways, at least. We spent months talking about what worked and what didn't. The Rise of Skywalker failed in terribly boring ways. Everyone went and watched it, and there just wasn't much to say afterward. You were either okay with a series of artificial fetch quests to find the MacGuffin, or you wanted an actual story. I wanted a story. The saga ended with a pathetic sizzle.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:57 AM on August 1 [6 favorites]


Ben Trismegistus: "And I don't understand how people can believe themselves to be die-hard Star Wars fans while actively disliking 7 out of the 9 movies."

I'm a die hard Star Wars fan. I think it's a great movie. So is Empire and, to a lesser extent, Jedi and Awakens. The other two get worse and worse.
posted by signal at 10:01 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]


I would assume that unless they had some sort of propellant (making them rockets/missiles) the bombs would 1) move very slowly once they leave whatever gravity field exists on the space-bomber, given their distance from the planet below, rather than fall at the same velocity as if they were in a planet's atmosphere, and that 2) they would gradually accelerate towards the center of the planet, not straight "down" (whatever "down" means in this context) towards the enemy spacecraft.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:07 AM on August 1


Do little girls often play with toy figurines of their hated oppressors?

like Ken dolls?


I knew that one was coming, but "Girl who is unaware that she is living in a patriarchal society playing with male-gendered toy" is just a wee bit different than "Child of renegade from fascist government with ties to radical freedom fighters playing with action figure of enemy soldiers she's probably been taught to fear as evil."
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:15 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]


Maybe I should watch Mandalorian

Oh no, it's bad and boring. Not really worth watching.
posted by Greg Nog at 11:00 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]


Yeah everybody hates it.
posted by chavenet at 11:54 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]


They especially hate the ugly green baby.
posted by thedward at 12:22 PM on August 1 [6 favorites]


If you think about it, Ghostbusters really should have been called Ghostbusters IV because there are four in the group, and Ghostbusters II should have been called Ghostbusters V because Rick Moranis kind of becomes an honorary ghostbuster at one point so that makes five total.
posted by dephlogisticated at 12:30 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]


Is it... Ghostbusters 2?
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:30 PM on August 1 [1 favorite]


I liked the Mandolorian but can change my mind if everyone else hated it.
posted by mazola at 5:31 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]


Probably the thing that gave me the most satisfaction, after the first three movies, was the trailer for the first prequel. A new Star Wars! Young Obi-Wan! It was so exciting.
posted by thelonius at 6:11 PM on August 1 [1 favorite]


Gotta say I really liked TFA. It had a lot of promise as a new entry into the canon. And, yeah, Clone Wars and Rebels were great, too (CW got *dark* in the 4th season! Very well done all around).

But RoS?

I HATED it. For so many reasons ever time something happened which just made me go: 'wtf? This doesn't make sense! And it sucks!'. But in the end this is what really makes it suck; here is a recap of RoS showing how STUPID it is:

The Emperor is dead! Oh no! He's alive!
Chewbacka is dead! Oh, no, he's alive!
Lea is dead!
Ben is dead! Oh, no, he's alive!
Ben is dead. Again.
Rey is dead.
Ben's alive again!
Rey's alive!
Ben is dead. Again. Finally.
posted by MacD at 12:30 AM on August 2 [4 favorites]


I watched Rise of Skywalker twice, and the only scene I can recall is the one from the trailer. All I remember is that they chose to end a decades long, 9 movie franchise by introducing some weird brand-new bit of force-twins mysticism? But, hell, I'm an old drunk, I don't remember lots of things.

My real criticism for folks saying it was just more silly fun like the rest of the movies... my Star Wars obsessed 4-year-old couldn't keep interest in it. I think it was the first time he just straight walked out of the room from any movie.
posted by team lowkey at 1:15 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]


What are we going to call the version of Godwin's law for how quickly any online discussion of any aspect of star wars reverts to whether or not ROS and possibly TLJ was any good or not?
posted by ominous_paws at 6:08 AM on August 2 [6 favorites]


Paws' Law sounds good, you can have it.
posted by team lowkey at 9:56 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]


I'm probably not the stereotypical SW fan, since I never read any of the expanded universe (other than the dreadful "Splinter in the Minds Eye" back when I was a kid), and stopped liking the films after Empire, but I with due veneration watched the succeeding films, usually with friends.

As a die-hard literary SF fan, they just seemed so anti-logical, clearly going for emotional responses instead of logically building up a universe that made sense and could be understood, that I abandoned interest, not even seeing the second or third of the prequels in theaters, and only seeing the first of the latest trilogy, which again stuck me as more of a "Fuck you, we have dolls to sell" than as an honest artistic vision. I did go on a date to see "Rogue One," but it too struck me as disjointed and nonsensical.

I still pop in the first couple of films into the player to remind myself of what could have been, of the seeds that could have launched a truly spectacular space opera capable of inspiring and entertaining me, but I've otherwise given up on that particular whole shared-universe anthology.

But considering I haven't seen a decent SF film in a long, long time, ("Gravity", I think was the last) I suspect that as much as I think that Hollywood hates anything with a SF aspect and deliberately sabotages it, the problem probably lies with me. I'll stick to my books and short stories, maybe indulging in the occasional comic book film or original work to see if yanking on my no-doubt calcified heartstrings has become a bit more effective.
posted by Blackanvil at 8:29 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]


OMG I completely forgot about Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Brb, I seem to be 11 years old again.
posted by Mchelly at 8:55 PM on August 2 [1 favorite]


the dreadful "Splinter in the Minds Eye"

Still better than the prequels.
posted by The Tensor at 1:05 AM on August 3 [2 favorites]


Child of renegade from fascist government with ties to radical freedom fighters playing with action figure of enemy soldiers she's probably been taught to fear as evil.

I realize this is a belated derail but I would like to put your mind at ease on this point. Although from a storytelling perspective it may have been a poor choice, taking the reader out of the universe to contemplating leaving Star Wars’ role in the creation of modern merchandising, the fact is that kids do play with figures of their oppressors all the time; repetitive play and storytelling is actually one way kids process trauma. “Ring around a rosy” is, for example, a vestige of the Black Death. My own 9 year old is processing part of his pandemic experience right now through play about the sacking of the Library at Alexandria which is complicated to explain but I can see it. (He was reading some history as the lockdown occurred, and as a Canadian with American heritage he has worries about Trump taking over Canadian institutions.)
posted by warriorqueen at 4:33 AM on August 3 [1 favorite]


“Ring around a rosy” is, for example, a vestige of the Black Death.

This interpretation was first introduced in 1951 and is not accurate. From the Library of Congress: Ring Around the Rosie: Metafolklore, Rhyme and Reason:
Meanwhile, there’s no evidence the rhyme existed in English until the late 19th Century. Newell, writing in 1883, asserted that the rhyme was known in New Bedford, Massachusetts, in 1790, but he gave no evidence, and none has come to light. After this unsubstantiated claim, the rhyme doesn’t turn up in English until 1881. What evidence is there it survived undocumented since 1665?

The claim that the rhyme is related to pestilence is even younger; the folklorists who diligently recorded the rhyme itself in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries never mention the plague interpretation, although they surely would have had they known it. The first evidence I’ve seen that people were connecting the rhyme with death and disaster is from 1949, when the newspaper The Observer ran a parody of the rhyme beginning “ring-a-ring-o’-geranium, a pocketful of uranium” and referring to the bombing of Hiroshima. In 1951, we find the first direct reference to the plague interpretation: Iona and Peter Opie state that some people believe the rhyme refers to the plague, but are not themselves convinced.
Snopes: Is ‘Ring Around the Rosie’ About the Black Plague? People love to create and spread invented backstories for simple nursery rhymes.
The more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on dancing among many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain as well as here in North America. Adolescents found a way around the dancing ban with what was called in the United States the “play-party.” Play-parties consisted of ring games which differed from square dances only in their name and their lack of musical accompaniment. They were hugely popular, and younger children got into the act, too. Some modern nursery games, particularly those which involve rings of children, derive from these play-party games. “Little Sally Saucer” (or “Sally Waters”) is one of them, and “Ring Around the Rosie” seems to be another. The rings referred to in the rhymes are literally the rings formed by the playing children. “Ashes, ashes” probably comes from something like “Husha, husha” (another common variant) which refers to stopping the ring and falling silent. And the falling down refers to the jumble of bodies in that ring when they let go of each other and throw themselves into the circle.
posted by Lexica at 10:31 AM on August 3 [4 favorites]


the fact is that kids do play with figures of their oppressors all the time; repetitive play and storytelling is actually one way kids process trauma.

Yes, yes, Fort-Da and all that, and I know that critiquing any Star Wars for logic is ultimately a Mug's Game, but I just find it hilariously silly to imagine this guy who is hiding out from the Empire would be all, "Hey honey, here's a cute stormtrooper doll for you to play with, have fun! Oh, by the way, if you ever see someone who looks like that, RUN IN FEAR BECAUSE THEY ARE HERE TO MURDER US ALL!"
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:39 AM on August 3


Maybe they have good guy and bad guy dolls to fight together, as I had Axis and Allies toy soldiers and tanks as a kid. Same with playing cops and robbers and such.
posted by fimbulvetr at 2:32 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]


Cool, thanks Lexica. Kids do still play their trauma though.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:51 AM on August 4


Maybe they have good guy and bad guy dolls to fight together

Maybe, but there's no Rebel or Jedi action figures in the film...
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:39 PM on August 7


I had Axis and Allies toy soldiers and tanks as a kid

Also that would only be an analogous situation if you were a child during WWII.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:40 PM on August 7


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