shit poop feces doo-doo turds crap poo dung dirt BOO!
February 1, 2021 7:52 PM Subscribe
Do not shit on the lettuce in your garden. That's night soil. It smells bad. it may cause disease. On the other hand, humanure is as safe as any other properly-processed kind of manure. I would specifically like to direct you to chapter six of the Humanure Handbook: Fecophobia and the Pathogen Issue.
It's time for shit to get real. Got some time on your hands? Ready to work on completing the soil cycle? Talk to your local friendly municipal government about implementing standardized international code for regulating home-built compost toilets. DIY if circumstances permit, it's good clean fun!
Night Soil: Origins, Discontinuities, and Opportunities for Bridging the Metabolic Rift
Night Soil: Origins, Discontinuities, and Opportunities for Bridging the Metabolic Rift
aniola: You totally get bonus points for this post! Thanks for making it, AND for kicking off what has now become a Very Special Month, apparently.
posted by hippybear at 7:59 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 7:59 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also, as a free form of liquid fertilizer, properly-treated hygienised urine is an important sustainable agricultural resource in developing parts of the world.
And IN SPAAAAACE!
posted by XMLicious at 8:01 PM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
And IN SPAAAAACE!
posted by XMLicious at 8:01 PM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Effective April 27, 2020 the TAGRO facility, located at the Central Treatment Plant, will resume services to both residential and commercial customers for staff-loaded products. All self-service products will remain closed until further notice.
I know what they mean, and it seems like a great program, but "staff-loaded products" is an amusing choice of words here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:20 PM on February 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
I know what they mean, and it seems like a great program, but "staff-loaded products" is an amusing choice of words here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:20 PM on February 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
There's always this shite: Milorganite
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:31 PM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:31 PM on February 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
I half expected this to be a Johnny Wallflower post.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:42 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:42 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Half?
posted by Windopaene at 9:04 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 9:04 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
The pathogen phobia link has a very sunny outlook about people's ability to self diagnose parasites or disease.
posted by Ferreous at 9:17 PM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 9:17 PM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Metafilter allows shitposting now?
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:18 PM on February 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:18 PM on February 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
"staff-loaded products" is an amusing choice of words here.
As opposed to "self service"?
posted by mcrandello at 9:21 PM on February 1, 2021
As opposed to "self service"?
posted by mcrandello at 9:21 PM on February 1, 2021
The auto-flush toilet defeated my medical sampling abilities and now this month of humiliation.
.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 9:32 PM on February 1, 2021
.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 9:32 PM on February 1, 2021
It's a shame that the ash output from an incinerating toilet loses any 'nutritive' value. At the cost of clean electricity supply, you'd never have to deal with blackwater plumbing or wastewater solids again. You'd think that the minerals at least would be good for something, but it appears not.
In terms of composting toilet output collection in an urban setting, "Dammit, the wind knocked over the wheelie bins. Again!" would be a crappy situation to find in the driveway.
posted by bartleby at 10:03 PM on February 1, 2021
In terms of composting toilet output collection in an urban setting, "Dammit, the wind knocked over the wheelie bins. Again!" would be a crappy situation to find in the driveway.
posted by bartleby at 10:03 PM on February 1, 2021
In terms of composting toilet output collection in an urban settingI deal with municipal government, who, I've got to tell you, are not often friendly, and aahhh I can just imagine the hard no if one of these ever made it to a development application or development control plan draft amendment. You'd hear the 'REFUSAL' stamp go thump from the next suburb.
There's a certain irony that night soil lanes for outdoor toilets are now items of cultural heritage and even land snatching court cases...
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:08 PM on February 1, 2021
We got a site-built compost toilet system permitted in a major US city (admittedly, it was Portland, OR) and you're right, we got a LOT of hard nos. Ask Metafilter helped us get to yes, and it was by pointing us to the code I mentioned above (which was still so new it was not yet available when we asked the question). The process was paperwork intensive, but that's just because we were the first people using this system with the city's knowledge and permission. It's easier now. Plenty of people were using home-built compost toilet systems without informing the city, but code exists to help people stay safe. And now there is at least one major US city that other cities can point to and say "hey look, there's precedent".
bartleby we were required to bolt the toilet to the floor (the wood part in this picture) with stainless steel bolts iirc. Bolting the toilet to the floor is an excellent idea. I'm glad the code required it. It's separate from the composting chambers, but I thought you might appreciate that detail anyway.
The other thought I have about homebuilt compost toilets is that they have the potential to be an eco-friendly affordable housing feature. If you can address the greywater/blackwater (and that's almost certainly covered in the above-mentioned WE-STAND by IAPMO, though I have not looked into it myself), you can probably do an entire plumbing system that's eco-friendly, costs less to build, and comes with an ongoing lower water bill. Affordable housing advocates, take note!
posted by aniola at 11:36 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
bartleby we were required to bolt the toilet to the floor (the wood part in this picture) with stainless steel bolts iirc. Bolting the toilet to the floor is an excellent idea. I'm glad the code required it. It's separate from the composting chambers, but I thought you might appreciate that detail anyway.
The other thought I have about homebuilt compost toilets is that they have the potential to be an eco-friendly affordable housing feature. If you can address the greywater/blackwater (and that's almost certainly covered in the above-mentioned WE-STAND by IAPMO, though I have not looked into it myself), you can probably do an entire plumbing system that's eco-friendly, costs less to build, and comes with an ongoing lower water bill. Affordable housing advocates, take note!
posted by aniola at 11:36 PM on February 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Western Washington’s biosolids go east to be agricultural treatment, carried in the most beautiful, polished, perfect stainless steel tankers. I love seeing them on the highways.
Lots of places are not so well suited to Bazalgette-ish hydraulic flushing - not just places with scarce water, but places with too much. A bunch of cities are sinking faster than they can afford to install sewage pumps. I think Jakarta is the most notorious internationally, but didn’t the New Yorker just have an article on a US county where all the poor people’s sewage pipes back up because (mechanical reason) they’re on lowland impermeable clay with heavy rains? The other reason is that we won’t spend enough money on their infrastructure, but pumping everything uphill into raised shit-lakes is just a terrible solution.
I don’t think I see a link to SOIL EkoLakay, which designs/builds/does the composting for bucket toilets in Haiti. They’re really working on closing the nutrient loop. Makes me wonder what brilliant packetized poop handling we’d have if the Industrial Revolution had somehow started where they couldn’t drain.
posted by clew at 12:25 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
Lots of places are not so well suited to Bazalgette-ish hydraulic flushing - not just places with scarce water, but places with too much. A bunch of cities are sinking faster than they can afford to install sewage pumps. I think Jakarta is the most notorious internationally, but didn’t the New Yorker just have an article on a US county where all the poor people’s sewage pipes back up because (mechanical reason) they’re on lowland impermeable clay with heavy rains? The other reason is that we won’t spend enough money on their infrastructure, but pumping everything uphill into raised shit-lakes is just a terrible solution.
I don’t think I see a link to SOIL EkoLakay, which designs/builds/does the composting for bucket toilets in Haiti. They’re really working on closing the nutrient loop. Makes me wonder what brilliant packetized poop handling we’d have if the Industrial Revolution had somehow started where they couldn’t drain.
posted by clew at 12:25 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
Throwing copious amounts of useful resources into purified drinking water, thus fouling it, so that mix can be washed out to sea to feed unwanted algae blooms, it is just so obviously wrong. Some day there will be standardised poop and pee pee bins that will be collected and used just like recyclable glass bottles and similar, and that will seem entirely normal.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:25 AM on February 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 1:25 AM on February 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
I have a friend who’s been working like hell on the humanure front for several years now. Great post, thanks!
posted by Bella Donna at 1:26 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:26 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Geoff Hill has done some interesting research on why toilets do and don't "compost".
I haven't dug into it as deeply as one might, but I saw him talk at an IAPMO meeting once and his PhD research seemed pretty damning for a lot of commercial-scale, permitted composting toilets.
posted by cnidaria at 1:36 AM on February 2, 2021
I haven't dug into it as deeply as one might, but I saw him talk at an IAPMO meeting once and his PhD research seemed pretty damning for a lot of commercial-scale, permitted composting toilets.
posted by cnidaria at 1:36 AM on February 2, 2021
I can say with certainty that it can't be any worse than the couple of days after the guy next door fertilizes his pasture with chicken "litter". Still, it ain't something I'm going to be doing any time soon. I'd spend gobs of money installing a non-potable water system before I considered shoveling shit, even if it were mixed with sawdust.
In much of the country, even where fresh water is at least somewhat scarce, there are voluminous sources of brackish water available. There's thousands of years worth under half the country, usually at much shallower depths than fossil water aquifers like the Ogalalla.
posted by wierdo at 2:05 AM on February 2, 2021
In much of the country, even where fresh water is at least somewhat scarce, there are voluminous sources of brackish water available. There's thousands of years worth under half the country, usually at much shallower depths than fossil water aquifers like the Ogalalla.
posted by wierdo at 2:05 AM on February 2, 2021
The process was paperwork intensive
So to speak
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:35 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
So to speak
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:35 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Throwing copious amounts of useful resources into purified drinking water, thus fouling it, so that mix can be washed out to sea to feed unwanted algae blooms, it is just so obviously wrong. Some day there will be standardised poop and pee pee bins that will be collected and used just like recyclable glass bottles and similar, and that will seem entirely normal.
This is why I have a composting toilet system. From Google Earth you can see the algae choking the little lazy stream down from the sewage treatment plant for my town of 400. There used to be a type of mussel living in those waters along with fish, otters, etc but combined with trash rednecks dump over the side of bridges those waterways are effectively dead.
One advantage of living in a small town like mine is the relative lack of regulation. The "city" (in my state we only have incorporated cities-- at best where I live is a village) gov't only forbids "pit toilets" and openly dumping feces on the ground. It defers to the state which has no actual prohibition against humanure--- as long as it's not used commercially or transported to other properties. I followed Joe Jenkins' recommendations exactly and consulted with him directly. I'm also nearly a mile from the nearest stream.
Next up is to build a gray water system. I had a bit of an argument with my wife who wants to keep the water softener for the shower so I guess that will remain on its own separate system while everything else will be unsoftened (but filtered) water fed to a mulch bed on the side of the house. If you can use a valuable resource twice and save energy (it takes a lot to process sewage), why not?
posted by drstrangelove at 3:47 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is why I have a composting toilet system. From Google Earth you can see the algae choking the little lazy stream down from the sewage treatment plant for my town of 400. There used to be a type of mussel living in those waters along with fish, otters, etc but combined with trash rednecks dump over the side of bridges those waterways are effectively dead.
One advantage of living in a small town like mine is the relative lack of regulation. The "city" (in my state we only have incorporated cities-- at best where I live is a village) gov't only forbids "pit toilets" and openly dumping feces on the ground. It defers to the state which has no actual prohibition against humanure--- as long as it's not used commercially or transported to other properties. I followed Joe Jenkins' recommendations exactly and consulted with him directly. I'm also nearly a mile from the nearest stream.
Next up is to build a gray water system. I had a bit of an argument with my wife who wants to keep the water softener for the shower so I guess that will remain on its own separate system while everything else will be unsoftened (but filtered) water fed to a mulch bed on the side of the house. If you can use a valuable resource twice and save energy (it takes a lot to process sewage), why not?
posted by drstrangelove at 3:47 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Composting, urine-diverting toilets are very common here in Finland, with Biolan probably the leading manufacturer. A big part of this are the ubiquitous summer cottages littered everywhere, generally lo-fi and with no plumbing. We've got one for backup at our rural home, too, for situations like extended power outages due to winter storms that can knock out our sewage well pump for days (record so far: 6 days with no grid electricity in December 2011). They're pretty great! Modern ones are practically odorless, and once the composting process is done, you would not be able to tell what the source material of the dirt is.
posted by jklaiho at 3:59 AM on February 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by jklaiho at 3:59 AM on February 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
Hat tip to aniola--- thank you for posting this!
People think I'm nuts but the composting process is simply magical to me. Dump in organic waste--- which can be almost anything from cardboard to hair to even dead animals. The majority of my bin is just kitchen scraps and yard waste. The composting toilet really doesn't comprise that much. Incidentally, because the kitchen scraps aren't mixed with sawdust before being dumped in the heap these actually smell far worse than the contents of the toilet (which, if it smells like anything is kind of a woodsy, humus-like odor).
The process is unlike my previous composting efforts. When you're ready to add to the heap (I collect material for a month or so in sealed buckets) you dig down into the center of the pile creating a void. Then you dump each bucket into the void, mixing it with a little straw or weeds or whatever you have available. When you're done you cover everything back up with the material you removed for the void then another layer of fresh straw or weeds.
I put all of my yard material into the bin, including branches but I take the time to cut them into one inch pieces, otherwise it's like rebar and they break down much, much more slowly.
I also moved into Hugulkultur last year. I built a raised bed 26" tall and filled the bottom with branches and sections of a tree I had to cut down. Then I piled on yard material, leaves, straw and more straw. Then some soil from a hole I'm digging for a backyard pond (a work in progress) then the entire contents of one of my compost bins (approx 2 cubic yards.) It settled a bit in the first year so the contents of another compost bin that has been curing for a year will go in soon. The idea is that all of that stuff at the bottom will break down, releasing heat (allowing for earlier planting) and nutrient. It also holds water better.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:00 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
People think I'm nuts but the composting process is simply magical to me. Dump in organic waste--- which can be almost anything from cardboard to hair to even dead animals. The majority of my bin is just kitchen scraps and yard waste. The composting toilet really doesn't comprise that much. Incidentally, because the kitchen scraps aren't mixed with sawdust before being dumped in the heap these actually smell far worse than the contents of the toilet (which, if it smells like anything is kind of a woodsy, humus-like odor).
The process is unlike my previous composting efforts. When you're ready to add to the heap (I collect material for a month or so in sealed buckets) you dig down into the center of the pile creating a void. Then you dump each bucket into the void, mixing it with a little straw or weeds or whatever you have available. When you're done you cover everything back up with the material you removed for the void then another layer of fresh straw or weeds.
I put all of my yard material into the bin, including branches but I take the time to cut them into one inch pieces, otherwise it's like rebar and they break down much, much more slowly.
I also moved into Hugulkultur last year. I built a raised bed 26" tall and filled the bottom with branches and sections of a tree I had to cut down. Then I piled on yard material, leaves, straw and more straw. Then some soil from a hole I'm digging for a backyard pond (a work in progress) then the entire contents of one of my compost bins (approx 2 cubic yards.) It settled a bit in the first year so the contents of another compost bin that has been curing for a year will go in soon. The idea is that all of that stuff at the bottom will break down, releasing heat (allowing for earlier planting) and nutrient. It also holds water better.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:00 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Composting, urine-diverting toilets are very common here in Finland, with Biolan probably the leading manufacturer.
People ask me how I keep my compost well over 100 degrees all winter long and I tell them my secret is urine. Usually that's enough to prevent follow-up questions, unfortunately. But it's the truth. From my household probably a couple of gallons of urine gets added directly to the compost every week. I sort of auger in a hole to reach the "core" of the pile so the urine finds its way there. I usually notice a bump in temperature of 5-10 degrees a day or two afterwards.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:03 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
People ask me how I keep my compost well over 100 degrees all winter long and I tell them my secret is urine. Usually that's enough to prevent follow-up questions, unfortunately. But it's the truth. From my household probably a couple of gallons of urine gets added directly to the compost every week. I sort of auger in a hole to reach the "core" of the pile so the urine finds its way there. I usually notice a bump in temperature of 5-10 degrees a day or two afterwards.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:03 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'd spend gobs of money installing a non-potable water system before I considered shoveling shit, even if it were mixed with sawdust.
There is no "shoveling of shit" as you say. You dump the contents of the buckets into the bin and that's it. You will simply have to take my word for it that there is absolutely no odor. The kitchen stuff is what turns my stomach. I suppose if we dumped it in the bin more often this would be less of a problem (less time to percolate in its own juices as it were) but in the winter I don't want to interrupt the thermophiles while they're doing their thing (which is also why I wait for a warm day to add to the heap.)
As for shoveling, the only shoveling I do is of absolutely perfect humus that has had such an amazing effect on my plants that I can't imagine every doing anything else. But I also understand that it's not for everyone. I merely want to clear up any misconceptions for those who might be on the fence.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:11 AM on February 2, 2021
There is no "shoveling of shit" as you say. You dump the contents of the buckets into the bin and that's it. You will simply have to take my word for it that there is absolutely no odor. The kitchen stuff is what turns my stomach. I suppose if we dumped it in the bin more often this would be less of a problem (less time to percolate in its own juices as it were) but in the winter I don't want to interrupt the thermophiles while they're doing their thing (which is also why I wait for a warm day to add to the heap.)
As for shoveling, the only shoveling I do is of absolutely perfect humus that has had such an amazing effect on my plants that I can't imagine every doing anything else. But I also understand that it's not for everyone. I merely want to clear up any misconceptions for those who might be on the fence.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:11 AM on February 2, 2021
We are now three months into using our Jenkins style Lovable Loo and wheelie bin long term composting units. I love it! Ive been wanting to stop a home system for years having had really positive experiences at permaculture properties around the world. While We're in a high animal rainfall zone (SW Western Australia), the summers are super dry and I'd rather use my municipal water on garden establishment and laundry which runs onto grey water irrigation rather than wasting valuable soil building nutrients away.
Luckily we have sawmill nearby where we can source sawdust. And we'll run composting worms through after a year before adding it to tree plantings. I think we'll be cycling through 5 240l bins in total per year.
While we have sewer access w chose not to install a toilet though we have plumbing setup for less permaculture friendly future residents. We also chochoose the Jenkins setup as our house is on a concrete slab rather than on adults which makes some bigger canister
We are on a large semi rural/ suburban block (2400m2), though I dd know of people on smaller properties who are also using humanure.
posted by pipstar at 4:44 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Luckily we have sawmill nearby where we can source sawdust. And we'll run composting worms through after a year before adding it to tree plantings. I think we'll be cycling through 5 240l bins in total per year.
While we have sewer access w chose not to install a toilet though we have plumbing setup for less permaculture friendly future residents. We also chochoose the Jenkins setup as our house is on a concrete slab rather than on adults which makes some bigger canister
We are on a large semi rural/ suburban block (2400m2), though I dd know of people on smaller properties who are also using humanure.
posted by pipstar at 4:44 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
We're in a high animal rainfall zone
Those dropbear swarms can be real trouble, eh? teehee
posted by bartleby at 4:52 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Those dropbear swarms can be real trouble, eh? teehee
posted by bartleby at 4:52 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Pipstar, what are you using as your cover in the bins themselves? Is straw readily available there?
posted by drstrangelove at 4:54 AM on February 2, 2021
posted by drstrangelove at 4:54 AM on February 2, 2021
→
Are you taking the piss?
Was convinced this post was going to be about those dancing rainbow diarrhea unicorn dolls, was disappointed/relieved.
posted by scruss at 5:01 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
tl;dr: Urine diversion! It's important.
Are you taking the piss?
Was convinced this post was going to be about those dancing rainbow diarrhea unicorn dolls, was disappointed/relieved.
posted by scruss at 5:01 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Some day there will be standardised poop and pee pee bins that will be collected and used just like recyclable glass bottles and similar, and that will seem entirely normal.
I think instead there will be a disruption in the American sewer system, in one place or many, and people, having no experience or training with a different way of doing things will...wreck a new kind of havoc on the already crumbling environment.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:09 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think instead there will be a disruption in the American sewer system, in one place or many, and people, having no experience or training with a different way of doing things will...wreck a new kind of havoc on the already crumbling environment.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:09 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Many years back I used a simple composting toilet for a few months. Just a toilet seat on an old chair frame, a bucket underneath, some cane mulch, and 3-4 large passive composting bins away from the house. No smell or disease problems at all.
Only things you really need to watch out for are overheating or drying out the compost pile/bin, and runoff from the pile/bin during wet weather, which is solved by placing it a suitable location.
Something I discovered by accident during that time, and later found out was already being looked at by researchers, is that screw fly larva (I think, never got them formally identified) do a brilliant job, very thorough, and faster than worms. They are also endemic around here so I didn't have to do anything, they just turned up when needed.
posted by Pouteria at 5:37 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Only things you really need to watch out for are overheating or drying out the compost pile/bin, and runoff from the pile/bin during wet weather, which is solved by placing it a suitable location.
Something I discovered by accident during that time, and later found out was already being looked at by researchers, is that screw fly larva (I think, never got them formally identified) do a brilliant job, very thorough, and faster than worms. They are also endemic around here so I didn't have to do anything, they just turned up when needed.
posted by Pouteria at 5:37 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
drstrangelove! Cover your kitchen scraps with carbon matter!
posted by aniola at 8:02 AM on February 2, 2021
posted by aniola at 8:02 AM on February 2, 2021
We are on a large semi rural/ suburban block (2400m2), though I dd know of people on smaller properties who are also using humanure.
We were on .07 acres and we calculated that we had plenty of room to spare.
posted by aniola at 8:04 AM on February 2, 2021
We were on .07 acres and we calculated that we had plenty of room to spare.
posted by aniola at 8:04 AM on February 2, 2021
Reading this brings to mind Friedensreich Hundertwasser, an Austrian artist, who has as part of his oevre a compost toilet he developed in the 70s.
When i was a child compost toilets were called Hundertwasser-Klo.
posted by 15L06 at 8:17 AM on February 2, 2021
When i was a child compost toilets were called Hundertwasser-Klo.
posted by 15L06 at 8:17 AM on February 2, 2021
Some day there will be standardised poop and pee pee bins that will be collected and used just like recyclable glass bottles and similar, and that will seem entirely normal.
This is sort of what they do in Dubai [unless things have changed relatively recently]. Those giant buildings don't have traditional plumbing connected to waste water - they have a big poop tank that is emptied by poop trucks.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:26 AM on February 2, 2021
This is sort of what they do in Dubai [unless things have changed relatively recently]. Those giant buildings don't have traditional plumbing connected to waste water - they have a big poop tank that is emptied by poop trucks.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:26 AM on February 2, 2021
Machine that does the reverse of a composting toilet and garden. (ancient previously)
posted by XMLicious at 8:30 AM on February 2, 2021
posted by XMLicious at 8:30 AM on February 2, 2021
btw there is also at least one apartment-scale humanure system approved in Portland, Oregon using the WE-STAND code.
posted by aniola at 8:33 AM on February 2, 2021
posted by aniola at 8:33 AM on February 2, 2021
Some day there will be standardised poop and pee pee bins that will be collected and used just like recyclable glass bottles and similar, and that will seem entirely normal.
Everything old is new again—for an FPP I made earlier I linked to the Wikipedia entry on fulling, a step in making woolen cloth, which says,
The link on “taxed” goes to an actual article about the Roman urine tax.In Roman times, fulling was conducted by slaves working the cloth while ankle deep in tubs of human urine. Urine was so important to the fulling business that it was taxed. Stale urine, known as wash, was a source of ammonium salts and assisted in cleansing and whitening the cloth. By the medieval period, fuller's earth had been introduced for use in the process.
I've also always gotten the impression that East Asian and South Asian civilizations, which reached much higher population densities than in the West much earlier in history as I understand it (with the exception of Rome itself and a handful of other cities), got trash collection and collection of human and livestock urine and feces for agricultural and industrial use (and entire formalized castes in society for it along with all the other really dirty work) organized a long time ago, but I've never actually checked into it.
posted by XMLicious at 8:45 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
There are cesspits being emptied by hand even now, sure. It’s not the same as composting , it’s dangerous for the groundwater and especially the labor.
I’ve read at least one paper looking at how different agricultural civilizations understood composting/manuring/nutrient recycling, and IIRC it is not an easy concept before you know about elements and microbes. And of course doing it wrong is dangerous - can kill you or your crops. (I haven’t properly read the linked nightsoil paper! Which looks great!)
posted by clew at 10:01 AM on February 2, 2021
I’ve read at least one paper looking at how different agricultural civilizations understood composting/manuring/nutrient recycling, and IIRC it is not an easy concept before you know about elements and microbes. And of course doing it wrong is dangerous - can kill you or your crops. (I haven’t properly read the linked nightsoil paper! Which looks great!)
posted by clew at 10:01 AM on February 2, 2021
I'm super excited to see this get coverage on the blue!
I was the editor of the WE Stand chapter on composting and urine diverting toilets, and the Oregon Reach Code @anolia used to get their toilet approved. I absolutely love hearing that they helped someone!
In Portland, I worked with Ole Ersson to get his bucket toilet system approved using the WE Stand provisions through ATAC. It's the first bucket toilet system we know of to get full plumbing approval. He wrote a paper about the system and compliance with WE Stand with Kimberly King.
One exciting new development is that WE Stand, after 3 years, is now being integrated into the regular UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code). You should be able to get a composting/urine diverting toilet installed without a variance in UPC jurisdictions soon.*
*Soon is like 2-5 years, depending on your municipality's code update schedule.
PS feel free contact me with your toilet code questions. Always happy to help or connect you to someone who can.
posted by head full of air at 10:37 AM on February 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
I was the editor of the WE Stand chapter on composting and urine diverting toilets, and the Oregon Reach Code @anolia used to get their toilet approved. I absolutely love hearing that they helped someone!
In Portland, I worked with Ole Ersson to get his bucket toilet system approved using the WE Stand provisions through ATAC. It's the first bucket toilet system we know of to get full plumbing approval. He wrote a paper about the system and compliance with WE Stand with Kimberly King.
One exciting new development is that WE Stand, after 3 years, is now being integrated into the regular UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code). You should be able to get a composting/urine diverting toilet installed without a variance in UPC jurisdictions soon.*
*Soon is like 2-5 years, depending on your municipality's code update schedule.
PS feel free contact me with your toilet code questions. Always happy to help or connect you to someone who can.
posted by head full of air at 10:37 AM on February 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's the first bucket toilet system we know of to get full plumbing approval.
We were so excited when we finally (after years) got to the part where we figured out that we just had to, in great detail, fill out an application and cite WE-STAND and the city would re-form ATAC (all the members' terms had expired) and review our case. So technically we beat Ole*, but we were just a couple who really wanted a permitted bucket toilet system. It took so many years of hard work by people like you/IAPMO and Ole** and ReCode and Jenkins and a lot of other people to make it possible.
*Does this mean we were a first for more than just Portland?! woah
**He's the first permitted if you count the time when it wasn't permitted, or the first if you're looking at multi-family residences. Let's all be firsts!
One exciting new development is that WE Stand, after 3 years, is now being integrated into the regular UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code). You should be able to get a composting/urine diverting toilet installed without a variance in UPC jurisdictions soon.*
WHAT THAT IS SO COOL!!! I AM BURSTING! YESSSSSSSSSSSSS THANK YOU head full of air & CO!!!
posted by aniola at 11:28 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
We were so excited when we finally (after years) got to the part where we figured out that we just had to, in great detail, fill out an application and cite WE-STAND and the city would re-form ATAC (all the members' terms had expired) and review our case. So technically we beat Ole*, but we were just a couple who really wanted a permitted bucket toilet system. It took so many years of hard work by people like you/IAPMO and Ole** and ReCode and Jenkins and a lot of other people to make it possible.
*Does this mean we were a first for more than just Portland?! woah
**He's the first permitted if you count the time when it wasn't permitted, or the first if you're looking at multi-family residences. Let's all be firsts!
One exciting new development is that WE Stand, after 3 years, is now being integrated into the regular UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code). You should be able to get a composting/urine diverting toilet installed without a variance in UPC jurisdictions soon.*
WHAT THAT IS SO COOL!!! I AM BURSTING! YESSSSSSSSSSSSS THANK YOU head full of air & CO!!!
posted by aniola at 11:28 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I found out about this book nearly a decade ago when it featured in Awful Library Books. If you follow that link, you'll see that the submitter reshelved it (meaning it was in recent if not frequent circulation) and suggested it needed to be weeded from the collection despite the fact that it was clearly in enough demand for new editions to be published.
Fortunately Holly provided some good context for why it would be worth keeping.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 11:29 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Fortunately Holly provided some good context for why it would be worth keeping.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 11:29 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
For me, my "compostable toilet" is literally just the compost bin, though it is tricky to balance on.
When we are downstairs watching telly at night I do usually go outside to wee in the garden. It is a much-welcomed degree of freedom, being able to swish it back and forth, after being constrained to workaday proletariat urinals or toilet-holes, which are the equivalent of fences around the soul. Freedom to wee is freedom to be.
We have three cats so I am used to scooping poops. I would probably poop into a human-sized litter box filled with sawdust if I lived on my own, or with somebody who didn't exist in such an ivory tower of rotely-memorised "standards" that they think a grown man squatting over a tray full of wood or torn-up neighbourhood newspaper to evacuate his bowels was inappropriate.
Would I try and convince visitors to do the same? To poop in the "guest box"? Would it get handed around like the church collection plate? I'm not sure. It would depend on how much I liked them, though at which end of the like-dislike spectrum, I am undecided.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:25 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
When we are downstairs watching telly at night I do usually go outside to wee in the garden. It is a much-welcomed degree of freedom, being able to swish it back and forth, after being constrained to workaday proletariat urinals or toilet-holes, which are the equivalent of fences around the soul. Freedom to wee is freedom to be.
We have three cats so I am used to scooping poops. I would probably poop into a human-sized litter box filled with sawdust if I lived on my own, or with somebody who didn't exist in such an ivory tower of rotely-memorised "standards" that they think a grown man squatting over a tray full of wood or torn-up neighbourhood newspaper to evacuate his bowels was inappropriate.
Would I try and convince visitors to do the same? To poop in the "guest box"? Would it get handed around like the church collection plate? I'm not sure. It would depend on how much I liked them, though at which end of the like-dislike spectrum, I am undecided.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:25 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Really so much of this sounds like it's comin from people who have big rural or suburban houses. "Oh just keep the compost in big buckets out in the yard". Yeah that's going to look great when the far end of my yard is seven feet away.
I guess I could store crap in spare bins in the living room, like some InCel who can't get away from video gaming long enough to use the bathroom. Then I dunno, I guess I could could spread it over the condo landscaping? Maybe fertilize the local school grounds? Or maybe just leave it out with a sign saying "Free to a good home"?
Sorry, compositing may be great for them suburbs, but it just doesn't sound practical when there's a thousand or more people in block.
posted by happyroach at 5:43 PM on February 2, 2021
I guess I could store crap in spare bins in the living room, like some InCel who can't get away from video gaming long enough to use the bathroom. Then I dunno, I guess I could could spread it over the condo landscaping? Maybe fertilize the local school grounds? Or maybe just leave it out with a sign saying "Free to a good home"?
Sorry, compositing may be great for them suburbs, but it just doesn't sound practical when there's a thousand or more people in block.
posted by happyroach at 5:43 PM on February 2, 2021
I would like to confirm that yes, I expect aniola was the first person in the United States to get a bucket toilet/composter approved as a legal toilet by plumbing authorities during the current era regulated plumbing.
Congratulations!
*cue simultaneous plaque handoff/handshake photo op*
posted by head full of air at 8:33 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Congratulations!
*cue simultaneous plaque handoff/handshake photo op*
posted by head full of air at 8:33 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Would it get handed around like the church collection plate?
Dear god no! Leave it in the corner, don't try to pick it up!
posted by hippybear at 8:57 PM on February 2, 2021
Dear god no! Leave it in the corner, don't try to pick it up!
posted by hippybear at 8:57 PM on February 2, 2021
just doesn't sound practical when there's a thousand or more people in block
Sounds like it would be all the more practical to do it in a collective and societally organised way then. Get a nightsoil person back into employment!
posted by Meatbomb at 8:09 PM on February 3, 2021
Sounds like it would be all the more practical to do it in a collective and societally organised way then. Get a nightsoil person back into employment!
posted by Meatbomb at 8:09 PM on February 3, 2021
Sounds like it would be all the more practical to do it in a collective and societally organised way then.
That's certainly possible, but it would be a lot of work and (like any on-site sanitation technology) requires that users comply with really precise usage instructions. It's way more complicated than just installing composting toilets in your apartment block and hiring nightsoil porters to handle the waste.
You'd basically need to parallel the social and physical infrastructure that we've devoted to sewerage, but for decentralized, bucket-scale processing and transport of waste. It's a big task, probably would have worse public health outcomes (because people are notorious for using things imperfectly, and the process requires close contact with the waste), and doesn't necessarily get you a lot of environmental gain.
In the right setting, composting toilets are superb. As a replacement for sewerage in dense settlements, not so much.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:10 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's certainly possible, but it would be a lot of work and (like any on-site sanitation technology) requires that users comply with really precise usage instructions. It's way more complicated than just installing composting toilets in your apartment block and hiring nightsoil porters to handle the waste.
You'd basically need to parallel the social and physical infrastructure that we've devoted to sewerage, but for decentralized, bucket-scale processing and transport of waste. It's a big task, probably would have worse public health outcomes (because people are notorious for using things imperfectly, and the process requires close contact with the waste), and doesn't necessarily get you a lot of environmental gain.
In the right setting, composting toilets are superb. As a replacement for sewerage in dense settlements, not so much.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:10 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
happyroach, a lot of the jokes above are either v confusing or are actually talking about cesspools, for which, yes, you want more space close by. But sewer systems can be joked about just the same -- You expect to take a river to dilute the city's poop? And then we have to find the energy and engineering to separate the poop back out before you even treat it? Now we have two problems. And it still isn't an option for low deltas, afaict.
I think we'd have made great developments in mechanical interlock closures if we had two hundred years of solid solid waste management.
posted by clew at 10:39 PM on February 3, 2021
I think we'd have made great developments in mechanical interlock closures if we had two hundred years of solid solid waste management.
posted by clew at 10:39 PM on February 3, 2021
Freedom to wee is freedom to be Quoted for truth.
Congrats to aniola for their place in history! Also, we don’t have to be all black and white in our thinking about this. There is a place for plumbing and there’s a place for composting toilets and I am super excited about the upgrade to the Universal Plumbing Code in the US. Thank you to all who have contributed to this shift. Seriously, that’s great!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:03 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
Congrats to aniola for their place in history! Also, we don’t have to be all black and white in our thinking about this. There is a place for plumbing and there’s a place for composting toilets and I am super excited about the upgrade to the Universal Plumbing Code in the US. Thank you to all who have contributed to this shift. Seriously, that’s great!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:03 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
Here's a good article on CAFOs. Now THAT shit's scary!
posted by aniola at 2:56 PM on February 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aniola at 2:56 PM on February 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Interesting How-to for nomads with composting toilets
posted by theora55 at 5:50 PM on February 20, 2021
posted by theora55 at 5:50 PM on February 20, 2021
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