'But this is the kind of Christianity I can believe in.’
June 18, 2023 10:11 PM Subscribe
He’s Deeply Religious and a Democrat. He Might Be the Next Big Thing in Texas Politics. - James Talarico confounds Fox News hosts, fights the culture wars by quoting scripture, and has fellow Democrats talking about his statewide future.
Religion and politics have always been intertwined for Talarico. He grew up the son of a single mother going to St. Andrew’s Presbyterian, a church that the Rev. Jim Rigby had turned into something of a refuge for progressive Christians in Austin. Rigby began ordaining gay and lesbian clergy in the 1990s, and, as a result, was put on trial by the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) denomination. Rigby remains Talarico’s pastor and encouraged him to pursue seminary. He even invited Talarico to deliver his first sermon at the church last fall. Talarico chose the subject of abortion — not exactly a topic you’d expect a pastor to tackle. “Did they teach you in Sunday school that Jesus Christ himself was a radical feminist,” he asked the parishioners that day.
“Loving thy neighbor is exhausting, especially in a place like the Texas legislature,” Talarico told me in the campus chapel, as the morning sun streamed through stained glass windows.
But seminary, he told me, is giving him a new and deeper vocabulary to think about changing Texas, and ammunition to fight the culture wars by quoting the same scripture his Republican opponents do — all with a pastoral smile, and as he puts it, deeper knowledge of the stories that reveal essential truths about the human condition.
“Seminary,” Talarico told me later after class in his basement office at the Texas capitol, “helped me crystalize the project we’ve been working on.” Through a series of legislation, Talarico has been developing a policy program that he’s billed as The Friendship Agenda. Based on Texas’ 1930 motto of “Friendship,” his agenda promises to promote everything from “economic friendship” (think medical debt forgiveness, baby bonds and subsidized marriage counseling) to “political friendship” (ranked choice voting and digital literacy, among others) and “social friendship” (“Medicaid for Y’All,” as he calls it).
“We progressives do ourselves a disservice when we discard those central stories,” Talarico said. “In my reading of history, the most successful progressives — whether it’s in the labor movement, civil rights movement, women’s movement, farm workers’ movement — they embed themselves in those stories, and then use those stories to propel their movement forward.”
Please, no.
I suppose that liberal theocracy is somewhat of an improvement over right-wing theocracy – in much the same way that riding a bike over a road strewn with nails is an improvement over driving a coal-rolling Humvee over the same road. You'll be getting more exercise and helping the environment, but you're still going to end up stranded with a flat tire.
Then again, I suppose I'm naive to expect people to do the right thing because it's right, and not because a cleric or an ancient book told them to.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:00 AM on June 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
I suppose that liberal theocracy is somewhat of an improvement over right-wing theocracy – in much the same way that riding a bike over a road strewn with nails is an improvement over driving a coal-rolling Humvee over the same road. You'll be getting more exercise and helping the environment, but you're still going to end up stranded with a flat tire.
Then again, I suppose I'm naive to expect people to do the right thing because it's right, and not because a cleric or an ancient book told them to.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:00 AM on June 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
Good for this guy, but this is not actually all that new.
Many progressives are Christian. Some are very devout Christians. For many, their beliefs as Christians are part of why they are progressives. Raphael Warnock is a particularly obvious example, although he is arguably only the most recent of a decades-long push for social justice among Black Americans informed by liberation theology. If we expand our scope internationally, then devout Catholics, although disappointingly regressive on sexual and gender issues, have often been an ally for economic and racial justice (for complicated reasons, Catholicism in America mostly does not slant this way).
I'm uncomfortable with a story whose slant is, "hey, check out this guy whose belief in progressive causes is informed by, of all things, Christian principles" because the subtext is that such a combination of motivations is unlikely or contradictory, when really it is not.
posted by jackbishop at 4:19 AM on June 19, 2023 [36 favorites]
Many progressives are Christian. Some are very devout Christians. For many, their beliefs as Christians are part of why they are progressives. Raphael Warnock is a particularly obvious example, although he is arguably only the most recent of a decades-long push for social justice among Black Americans informed by liberation theology. If we expand our scope internationally, then devout Catholics, although disappointingly regressive on sexual and gender issues, have often been an ally for economic and racial justice (for complicated reasons, Catholicism in America mostly does not slant this way).
I'm uncomfortable with a story whose slant is, "hey, check out this guy whose belief in progressive causes is informed by, of all things, Christian principles" because the subtext is that such a combination of motivations is unlikely or contradictory, when really it is not.
posted by jackbishop at 4:19 AM on June 19, 2023 [36 favorites]
I'm skeptical that saying "Hey, I'm a Christian too" will break the hold that Republican white ethno-nationalism has on the rightwing base. They'll just find a way to define him out of in the in-group. That personal narrative of coming from a liberal Presbyterian church in Austin will make it fairly easy.
posted by gimonca at 4:19 AM on June 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by gimonca at 4:19 AM on June 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
I dunno, I think he’s talking less about religion ruling a state and how religion can inspire a politician’s values. If you really read and incorporate the teachings of Christ into your value system, you are going to be a pretty other-focused person. The whole speech in Matthew 25 makes it clear that Christians are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome strangers, aid the sick and the imprisoned, all of which is a pretty good foundation for social justice and a healthy society.
Additionally, reminding Red State Christians of Jesus’ teachings is a more plausible solution than just telling them their religion is bad. While history shows this is a limited tactic, if it changes minds in the right places, Texas could become much less toxic.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:24 AM on June 19, 2023 [32 favorites]
Additionally, reminding Red State Christians of Jesus’ teachings is a more plausible solution than just telling them their religion is bad. While history shows this is a limited tactic, if it changes minds in the right places, Texas could become much less toxic.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:24 AM on June 19, 2023 [32 favorites]
I’d be interested to hear from MeFites in TX about this.
More broadly, though, reality exists. Complaints that politicians are or embrace religion are woefully out of touch with that reality, history, and religion in America. Good for this politician for, you know, espousing a liberal, humane perspective.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:41 AM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
More broadly, though, reality exists. Complaints that politicians are or embrace religion are woefully out of touch with that reality, history, and religion in America. Good for this politician for, you know, espousing a liberal, humane perspective.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:41 AM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
In hindsight maybe I should have included the quote I took this thread's title from:
“The thing that warms my heart the most,” he told me, “is people who say, ‘I’m an atheist, agnostic, or I left the church or I left religion. But this is the kind of Christianity I can believe in.’”posted by Pachylad at 4:48 AM on June 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
While I’m solidly agnostic-leaning-to-atheistic, my wife is solidly, devoutly, evangelical christian. She’s also solidly, devoutly progressive.
She so often despairs of where american christianity has gone, and the hate it preaches and injects into society. Talarico appears to express exactly her understanding of christianity and jesus’ teachings. She’d love to be able to support a politician like that, but moving to Texas is out of the question.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:51 AM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
She so often despairs of where american christianity has gone, and the hate it preaches and injects into society. Talarico appears to express exactly her understanding of christianity and jesus’ teachings. She’d love to be able to support a politician like that, but moving to Texas is out of the question.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:51 AM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Please, no.
I suppose that liberal theocracy is somewhat of an improvement over right-wing theocracy
Except that Talarico explicitly opposes theocracy. He not only condemned the giant ten commandments statue as idolatrous, he also specifically condemned it as unconstitutional.
We play with the cards we're dealt.
posted by cubeb at 6:06 AM on June 19, 2023 [40 favorites]
I suppose that liberal theocracy is somewhat of an improvement over right-wing theocracy
Except that Talarico explicitly opposes theocracy. He not only condemned the giant ten commandments statue as idolatrous, he also specifically condemned it as unconstitutional.
We play with the cards we're dealt.
posted by cubeb at 6:06 AM on June 19, 2023 [40 favorites]
The other side can't be persuaded if you don't speak a language they understand.
Lots of the New Testament is full of solid progressive values, as mentioned above. The bible doesn't have to be your identity, but you can still recognize the good parts.
And if you force conservatives to draw the circle around themselves ever smaller, then many of the people they exclude can be persuaded to join you. Lather, rinse, repeat, until the Texas Republicans are reduced to irrelevance.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:16 AM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Lots of the New Testament is full of solid progressive values, as mentioned above. The bible doesn't have to be your identity, but you can still recognize the good parts.
And if you force conservatives to draw the circle around themselves ever smaller, then many of the people they exclude can be persuaded to join you. Lather, rinse, repeat, until the Texas Republicans are reduced to irrelevance.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:16 AM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
The kind of religious progressives who promptly and without fail retcon into Christianity every new secular left-wing trend, enthusiasm or orthodoxy are, to put it mildly, not very impressive to other religious people. I mean, maybe Jesus always did support each of those things — the omission of ranked choice voting from the Sermon on the Mount was somehow an accident! — but very convenient for the revelations to arrive a few weeks after favorably editorialized in the New York Times or adopted by leading Democratic Party politicians.
If there were any allowed place in Democratic Party politics for people who on religious grounds reject any material tenet of the secular left platform, this might become a more interesting development.
Talarico’s statement that atheists praising his kind of Christianity is a sign of its validity shows him to have been horribly catechized. The New Testament could not be more clear that a good sign of fidelity is opposition and rejection by non-Christians.
posted by MattD at 6:50 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
If there were any allowed place in Democratic Party politics for people who on religious grounds reject any material tenet of the secular left platform, this might become a more interesting development.
Talarico’s statement that atheists praising his kind of Christianity is a sign of its validity shows him to have been horribly catechized. The New Testament could not be more clear that a good sign of fidelity is opposition and rejection by non-Christians.
posted by MattD at 6:50 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
A lot of people who are not Christian grew up Christian, including me. My father grew up in possibly the only left-leaning evangelical denomination in the midwest, now pretty much dead. My partner's family is pretty religious and very left wing. In the Twin Cities, there are a number of left-wing churches - lots of radical projects have rented offices at cut rates, gotten space for free, etc from them. Up through the nineties there were still enough older radical nuns that you'd see them regularly at protests. Here, at least, you're not going to spend much time on the left without meeting a lot of Christian radicals. Some of the people who do the most boring and unglamorous work of tabling, driving stuff places, writing necessary business letters for people and groups, etc are older radical Christians.
A lot of people live in really different environments and don't encounter this kind of left culture, or if they do meet radical Christians in passing they don't realize it because people don't talk religion unless it's appropriate.
Frankly, I've seen atheist radicals be really unfair and unkind to a perfectly good, non-preachy person when they found out that they were Christian. I did not care for this. I think the religions of people on the left are interesting, and I like to talk with people about how their beliefs inform their work. I know what I believe and I'm not the boss of the world; I don't need other people to think identically to me.
posted by Frowner at 6:51 AM on June 19, 2023 [34 favorites]
A lot of people live in really different environments and don't encounter this kind of left culture, or if they do meet radical Christians in passing they don't realize it because people don't talk religion unless it's appropriate.
Frankly, I've seen atheist radicals be really unfair and unkind to a perfectly good, non-preachy person when they found out that they were Christian. I did not care for this. I think the religions of people on the left are interesting, and I like to talk with people about how their beliefs inform their work. I know what I believe and I'm not the boss of the world; I don't need other people to think identically to me.
posted by Frowner at 6:51 AM on June 19, 2023 [34 favorites]
I don't give a flying fuck how someone comes to, embraces, and declares progressive values. If you come to it by a clear reading of Jesus' core message, then right-on. There is no single road to enlightenment.
Building a big "Seculars Only" wall around progressivism is not terribly helpful or wise.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:58 AM on June 19, 2023 [51 favorites]
Building a big "Seculars Only" wall around progressivism is not terribly helpful or wise.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:58 AM on June 19, 2023 [51 favorites]
If there were any allowed place in Democratic Party politics for people who on religious grounds reject any material tenet of the secular left platform, this might become a more interesting development.
There is through the black church.
I’d be interested to hear from MeFites in TX about this
This is the first I've heard of him.
posted by Selena777 at 7:02 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
There is through the black church.
I’d be interested to hear from MeFites in TX about this
This is the first I've heard of him.
posted by Selena777 at 7:02 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Religion would be just another branch of literature if not for the issue of cultural authority that surrounds it, because it names the key players for feudalism and links it with status in heaven for suffering and obedience. Talking about neighbors with high emotional concern may seem harmless, even natural, but if the neighbors are different then someone is just getting started with fixing them. I personally don't want the love, aiming for mutual respect, but most people think it's what degenerate humanity needs instead of good civics, and because one is much harder and doesn't doesn't give you stuff in heaven. I wish this guy all the success, because it opens a door for someone who wants to leave evangelicals, which I want to assume is the point.
posted by Brian B. at 7:15 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B. at 7:15 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’d be interested to hear from MeFites in TX about this.
That's me!
First, I would like to acknowledge that some in this thread are apprehensive about a U.S. politician (R or D) who discusses their religion (Christianity, most specifically) as... I don't want to say informs their opinions, but really guides their decisions over constitutional law.
I hear y'all. This is the first time in a long time (maybe ever?), I have not shared this concern about a politician. I'll get back to that in a second.
Up until May 3, I don't think I could have told you anything about Talarico. I received an e-mail from him specifically starting with the Ten Commandments issue in Texas. I have donated to several campaigns since 2016, so I wasn't surprised to receive YET ANOTHER donation request regardless of how often I unsubscribe or say stop.
I am sure many of you are in the same boat and just immediately delete, report as spam, dismiss, unsubscribe, etc. I got two just this week from Adam Schiff and his daughter! I understand the requests for cash, but so many of these politicians have such a big war chest, they DO NOT need to be sending daily e-mails.
Back to May 3. This guy, out of nowhere sends me an e-mail. Here are the first two sentences:
Not knowing his faith at the time, I found how he prioritized the issues to be exactly what I would like to see in a pol. Now having a bit more insight, I respect his stance even more.
There were a couple more bullet points mentioned of things he has accomplished which (I told you I would get back to) align with a VERY BROAD reading of Christianity. That is, "Love thy neighbors as thyself. From that, all other rules flow."
Anyway, here's the kicker. He didn't ask for a donation. Not even hyperlinks if you wanted a quick way to donate.
So, I'm keeping a keen eye on him. In just six weeks, everything I have seen so far has been better than I could hope for. But, in a milkshake duck sort of way, it's still too early for me to be all in.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:16 AM on June 19, 2023 [39 favorites]
That's me!
First, I would like to acknowledge that some in this thread are apprehensive about a U.S. politician (R or D) who discusses their religion (Christianity, most specifically) as... I don't want to say informs their opinions, but really guides their decisions over constitutional law.
I hear y'all. This is the first time in a long time (maybe ever?), I have not shared this concern about a politician. I'll get back to that in a second.
Up until May 3, I don't think I could have told you anything about Talarico. I received an e-mail from him specifically starting with the Ten Commandments issue in Texas. I have donated to several campaigns since 2016, so I wasn't surprised to receive YET ANOTHER donation request regardless of how often I unsubscribe or say stop.
I am sure many of you are in the same boat and just immediately delete, report as spam, dismiss, unsubscribe, etc. I got two just this week from Adam Schiff and his daughter! I understand the requests for cash, but so many of these politicians have such a big war chest, they DO NOT need to be sending daily e-mails.
Back to May 3. This guy, out of nowhere sends me an e-mail. Here are the first two sentences:
Texas Republicans are trying to force public schools to display the Ten Commandments in every classroom.(Emphasis in original e-mail.)
I told the bill author: “This bill is not only un-constitutional and un-American, it’s deeply un-Christian.”
Not knowing his faith at the time, I found how he prioritized the issues to be exactly what I would like to see in a pol. Now having a bit more insight, I respect his stance even more.
There were a couple more bullet points mentioned of things he has accomplished which (I told you I would get back to) align with a VERY BROAD reading of Christianity. That is, "Love thy neighbors as thyself. From that, all other rules flow."
Anyway, here's the kicker. He didn't ask for a donation. Not even hyperlinks if you wanted a quick way to donate.
So, I'm keeping a keen eye on him. In just six weeks, everything I have seen so far has been better than I could hope for. But, in a milkshake duck sort of way, it's still too early for me to be all in.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:16 AM on June 19, 2023 [39 favorites]
The idea that state demonstrations of Christian identity or fidelity are "unChristian" is absurd. Christianity would not exist in anything remotely resembling its present form were it not, in variously denominational forms, the established state religion of all of Europe for the past 1800 years. There wouldn't be any Christianity in the Americas, Africa or East Asia had state-religious Europeans not colonized those places.
The notion that the even the US is an obligate secular state is an artifact of secularizing judges and timid politicians of the 1950s to 1980s. Before then, nobody seriously questioned that the U.S. was a Protestant country which abjured the political establishment of a single Protestant denomination and which assured Catholics and Jews of tolerance. Very different thing.
posted by MattD at 7:40 AM on June 19, 2023
The notion that the even the US is an obligate secular state is an artifact of secularizing judges and timid politicians of the 1950s to 1980s. Before then, nobody seriously questioned that the U.S. was a Protestant country which abjured the political establishment of a single Protestant denomination and which assured Catholics and Jews of tolerance. Very different thing.
posted by MattD at 7:40 AM on June 19, 2023
It's nice for a change to see someone trying to put Christ back into American Christianity.
I don't know how successful he'll be, but shining a light on the hypocrisy of "Christians" who wield power to discriminate against and disenfranchise others is no bad thing.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:05 AM on June 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't know how successful he'll be, but shining a light on the hypocrisy of "Christians" who wield power to discriminate against and disenfranchise others is no bad thing.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:05 AM on June 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
The notion that the even the US is an obligate secular state is an artifact of secularizing judges and timid politicians of the 1950s to 1980s.
It's interesting that you chose the 50s as the start of this period of secularization, since I think plenty of historians view the 1950s as a period when there was a push to re-emphasize Christianity in US government.
I think that both Christian theology and US political history encompass a pretty wide umbrella of views that James Talarico (and Raphael Warnock and Justin Jones and plenty more Christian Democrats) fit comfortably within.
I do think ministry and politics attract similar personalities and skill sets, so it can be interesting to see which figures are drawn to either or both.
posted by the primroses were over at 8:20 AM on June 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's interesting that you chose the 50s as the start of this period of secularization, since I think plenty of historians view the 1950s as a period when there was a push to re-emphasize Christianity in US government.
I think that both Christian theology and US political history encompass a pretty wide umbrella of views that James Talarico (and Raphael Warnock and Justin Jones and plenty more Christian Democrats) fit comfortably within.
I do think ministry and politics attract similar personalities and skill sets, so it can be interesting to see which figures are drawn to either or both.
posted by the primroses were over at 8:20 AM on June 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
MattD, can you share what this comment is in relation to?
I did a ctrl+f on unChristian (which you put in quotes, so I figured it might be a quote I missed?) and nothing came up besides your comment.
Without context, I am really struggling to see the point you are trying to make.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:21 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I did a ctrl+f on unChristian (which you put in quotes, so I figured it might be a quote I missed?) and nothing came up besides your comment.
Without context, I am really struggling to see the point you are trying to make.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:21 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
a non mouse, a cow herd, thanks for that. TX is such a big place, and often it's just conflated with the rest of the U.S. South. 29,500,000 people leaves room for a lot of variation.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:22 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:22 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Talarico is my state rep! I'm an atheist, and a long-suffering progressive in an increasingly hostile Texas. I find the state democratic party and many of its members almost criminally ineffective in combating Republican overreach, let alone gaining support for its platform. The values that Talarico vocally advocates for are largely ones that I share, even though those values are informed by vastly different worldviews. I couldn't be happier with his representation and his newly elevated profile in the state.
posted by Tuba Toothpaste at 8:24 AM on June 19, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by Tuba Toothpaste at 8:24 AM on June 19, 2023 [24 favorites]
a non mouse, not to speak for Matt, but I'm sure he was responding to the email quoted above: I told the bill author: “This bill is not only un-constitutional and un-American, it’s deeply un-Christian.”
posted by joannemerriam at 8:24 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by joannemerriam at 8:24 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
The notion that the even the US is an obligate secular state is an artifact of secularizing judges and timid politicians of the 1950s to 1980s. Before then, nobody seriously questioned that the U.S. was a Protestant country which abjured the political establishment of a single Protestant denomination and which assured Catholics and Jews of tolerance. Very different thing.
Is your argument/would you argue that this Protestant domination was a good or bad thing?
posted by jaduncan at 8:25 AM on June 19, 2023
Is your argument/would you argue that this Protestant domination was a good or bad thing?
posted by jaduncan at 8:25 AM on June 19, 2023
A few random thoughts. When Pope Francis has espoused values that aren't in line with the right, he's been attacked pretty harshly by the Faux crowd. There's a pretty large segment of people who identify as Christian who are outright hostile to most of Christ's teachings.
But, a person who believes in secular government but progressive Christian values is more likely to peel voters from the soft middle than lose voters on the left. At least I hope so. I'd happily vote for someone that holds progressive positions but came to them via Christian beliefs.
I'd be hopeful that such candidates can bring more people together, people who have the mistaken belief that the GOP is more Christian than the Dems, without alienating D voters.
posted by jzb at 8:30 AM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
But, a person who believes in secular government but progressive Christian values is more likely to peel voters from the soft middle than lose voters on the left. At least I hope so. I'd happily vote for someone that holds progressive positions but came to them via Christian beliefs.
I'd be hopeful that such candidates can bring more people together, people who have the mistaken belief that the GOP is more Christian than the Dems, without alienating D voters.
posted by jzb at 8:30 AM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
"a good sign of fidelity is opposition and rejection by non-Christians."
Well, I do not know anything about it not having studied it, but I am inclined to agree with the seminarian that the people crowing about their own Christian bona fides while erecting edifices arguably forbidden by their supposed faith are in fact non-Christians and therefore their opposition to him and rejection of him is a good sign of his fidelity. This is all what I've picked up in passing, but wasn't there that whole "render unto Caesar" thing? And they were to ditch their golden calves? And not loudly pray and make a big show of praying in public? And not be so rich it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for them to get into heaven? Because Christians are supposed to give away their money to the poor and heal the sick and "as you treat the least of us, so you treat me" and countless other biblical mammerings? And this is just me picking things up from out of the wind, not taking classes on the new testament preparatory to getting my masters in theology.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:35 AM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well, I do not know anything about it not having studied it, but I am inclined to agree with the seminarian that the people crowing about their own Christian bona fides while erecting edifices arguably forbidden by their supposed faith are in fact non-Christians and therefore their opposition to him and rejection of him is a good sign of his fidelity. This is all what I've picked up in passing, but wasn't there that whole "render unto Caesar" thing? And they were to ditch their golden calves? And not loudly pray and make a big show of praying in public? And not be so rich it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for them to get into heaven? Because Christians are supposed to give away their money to the poor and heal the sick and "as you treat the least of us, so you treat me" and countless other biblical mammerings? And this is just me picking things up from out of the wind, not taking classes on the new testament preparatory to getting my masters in theology.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:35 AM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Thank you joannemerriam.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:04 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:04 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm probably never going to get super excited about a Christian minister's political career? But he seems to be doing good so far.
I remember seeing something about seminary before he was elected, and then double-checking to make sure he'd been endorsed by reputable local orgs and wasn't on the ballot as a spoiler. I did not delve further.
I recognize his church, as it turns out. St. Andrews and Jim Rigby do good work locally, both in social justice and basic welfare. If I wanted to join a Christian church, they'd be my first stop; I'd count his being a parishioner as a positive.
posted by mersen at 9:08 AM on June 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I remember seeing something about seminary before he was elected, and then double-checking to make sure he'd been endorsed by reputable local orgs and wasn't on the ballot as a spoiler. I did not delve further.
I recognize his church, as it turns out. St. Andrews and Jim Rigby do good work locally, both in social justice and basic welfare. If I wanted to join a Christian church, they'd be my first stop; I'd count his being a parishioner as a positive.
posted by mersen at 9:08 AM on June 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
The idea that state demonstrations of Christian identity or fidelity are "unChristian" is absurd. Christianity would not exist in anything remotely resembling its present form were it not, in variously denominational forms, the established state religion of all of Europe for the past 1800 years. There wouldn't be any Christianity in the Americas, Africa or East Asia had state-religious Europeans not colonized those places.
Absolutely, but remember that the mainline Christian tradition in the US has always been Protestant. Not only that, but a particularly anti-state sponsored church Protestant. Every denomination is a response to and a rebellion against one or more tenets of the Catholic tradition, or even against the gentler Anglican notion of a state sponsored religion.
Talarico's argument would sound ridiculous in Parliament. It might also sound ridiculous in the Texas legislature. But if it does, it won't be because of the history of state-sponsored Christianity: it will be because of the presently active movement of Christian dominionism in the state of Texas.
posted by billjings at 9:22 AM on June 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Absolutely, but remember that the mainline Christian tradition in the US has always been Protestant. Not only that, but a particularly anti-state sponsored church Protestant. Every denomination is a response to and a rebellion against one or more tenets of the Catholic tradition, or even against the gentler Anglican notion of a state sponsored religion.
Talarico's argument would sound ridiculous in Parliament. It might also sound ridiculous in the Texas legislature. But if it does, it won't be because of the history of state-sponsored Christianity: it will be because of the presently active movement of Christian dominionism in the state of Texas.
posted by billjings at 9:22 AM on June 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
If there were any allowed place in Democratic Party politics for people who on religious grounds reject any material tenet of the secular left platform, this might become a more interesting development.
I think I'd like to know specifically what this means before I reply to it.
Are you saying that someone (e.g., Biden) who says "My faith compels me to think abortion wrong, but I understand that I have no right to push that belief onto others" has no allowed place in the Democratic Party? Or are you trying to make an argument that people who think that (again, e.g.) birth control or gender-affirming care should be banned because of Jeezus should somehow have a voice in Democratic politics?
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:50 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think I'd like to know specifically what this means before I reply to it.
Are you saying that someone (e.g., Biden) who says "My faith compels me to think abortion wrong, but I understand that I have no right to push that belief onto others" has no allowed place in the Democratic Party? Or are you trying to make an argument that people who think that (again, e.g.) birth control or gender-affirming care should be banned because of Jeezus should somehow have a voice in Democratic politics?
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:50 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
What does his bumper sticker mean (Less Honkin' More Tonkin')?
posted by hypnogogue at 11:06 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hypnogogue at 11:06 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Less honking your truck horn, more dancing in bars.
posted by box at 11:10 AM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by box at 11:10 AM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Less use of your truck horn; more getting involved in a land war in Asia?
Actually, I don't think that means what I think it means.
posted by The Bellman at 11:26 AM on June 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Actually, I don't think that means what I think it means.
posted by The Bellman at 11:26 AM on June 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
The kind of religious progressives who promptly and without fail retcon into Christianity every new secular left-wing trend, enthusiasm or orthodoxy are, to put it mildly, not very impressive to other religious people. I mean, maybe Jesus always did support each of those things — the omission of ranked choice voting from the Sermon on the Mount was somehow an accident! — but very convenient for the revelations to arrive a few weeks after favorably editorialized in the New York Times or adopted by leading Democratic Party politicians.
My parents moved our family into a city abandoned by white Democrats to work on a church project rehabbing housing for poor people and sent us to a 90% black public school there in the late 1970s/early 80s because they thought segregation was a sin. If this was a trendy thing, they were seriously avant-garde, because white people didn't start showing up in numbers in that city until the Obama administration. On a grander scale, the idea that the Gospel could be one of radical social change goes back to...early Christianity, actually. The starved ignorance--historical, cultural, theological--of the modern American evangelical is one of the most appalling and shameful spectacles modern American culture presents. It would be tragic if it weren't so brutally self-inflicted.
On another subject, I am an atheist who modifies the noun with the adjective agnostic only out of a healthy respect for the limitations of the human intellect. I am vigorously opposed to any form of theocracy or (god forbid) Christian nationalism. Because I come from the Midwest, I know well the rhetoric of creeping theocracy. But I bring a set of what you could characterize as non- or pre-rational values to my analysis of politics. Everyone does. Christian or anything else. So I think one must avoid a facile distinction on this point between religious believers and others on this point. "I believe our laws should be just because we should strive in our earthly governments to reflect the justice of almighty God, who rules the universe and eternity" and "I believe our laws should be just because it makes for a better world" are different in important ways that should not be overlooked, but not in the sense of appealing to more or less rational or objective sources. The very notion of "human rights" is, at bottom, religious in nature.
posted by praemunire at 11:30 AM on June 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
My parents moved our family into a city abandoned by white Democrats to work on a church project rehabbing housing for poor people and sent us to a 90% black public school there in the late 1970s/early 80s because they thought segregation was a sin. If this was a trendy thing, they were seriously avant-garde, because white people didn't start showing up in numbers in that city until the Obama administration. On a grander scale, the idea that the Gospel could be one of radical social change goes back to...early Christianity, actually. The starved ignorance--historical, cultural, theological--of the modern American evangelical is one of the most appalling and shameful spectacles modern American culture presents. It would be tragic if it weren't so brutally self-inflicted.
On another subject, I am an atheist who modifies the noun with the adjective agnostic only out of a healthy respect for the limitations of the human intellect. I am vigorously opposed to any form of theocracy or (god forbid) Christian nationalism. Because I come from the Midwest, I know well the rhetoric of creeping theocracy. But I bring a set of what you could characterize as non- or pre-rational values to my analysis of politics. Everyone does. Christian or anything else. So I think one must avoid a facile distinction on this point between religious believers and others on this point. "I believe our laws should be just because we should strive in our earthly governments to reflect the justice of almighty God, who rules the universe and eternity" and "I believe our laws should be just because it makes for a better world" are different in important ways that should not be overlooked, but not in the sense of appealing to more or less rational or objective sources. The very notion of "human rights" is, at bottom, religious in nature.
posted by praemunire at 11:30 AM on June 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'm so sick of this bullshit. Modifying a cult that tortured millions of people and trying to be cute about it so your real estate investments and money laundering schemes don't collapse is still bullshit. He needs to shut the hell up and keep "all ya'll" out of his hypocritical mouth.
If I was running he would look like a speck of gum on a shoe. I just don't play with these fools.
posted by lextex at 12:08 PM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
If I was running he would look like a speck of gum on a shoe. I just don't play with these fools.
posted by lextex at 12:08 PM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Before then, nobody seriously questioned that the U.S. was a Protestant country which abjured the political establishment of a single Protestant denomination and which assured Catholics and Jews of tolerance. Very different thing.
James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessment, 1785:
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:31 PM on June 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessment, 1785:
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?...That seems to pretty clearly intend to include 'Sects' older than the Reformation.
7. Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?
8. Because the establishment in question is not necessary for the support of Civil Government. If it be urged as necessary for the support of Civil Government only as it is a means of supporting Religion, and it be not necessary for the latter purpose, it cannot be necessary for the former. If Religion be not within the cognizance of Civil Government how can its legal establishment be necessary to Civil Government? What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not. Such a Government will be best supported by protecting every Citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:31 PM on June 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
But I bring a set of what you could characterize as non- or pre-rational values to my analysis of politics. Everyone does. Christian or anything else. So I think one must avoid a facile distinction on this point between religious believers and others on this point. "I believe our laws should be just because we should strive in our earthly governments to reflect the justice of almighty God, who rules the universe and eternity" and "I believe our laws should be just because it makes for a better world" are different in important ways that should not be overlooked, but not in the sense of appealing to more or less rational or objective sources. The very notion of "human rights" is, at bottom, religious in nature.
Well put. There's a shallow, obnoxious sort of atheism that supposes itself to be completely "rational" and religion to be completely "irrational". In reality, we all operate with a combination of rational and irrational motivations.
And the values of most modern left-leaning Americans are recognizable to anyone with a knowledge of history as having partly originated from progressive forms of Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries (e.g., the abolitionist movement was heavily Christian)... and ultimately, as having a not-insignificant degree of rootedness in the teachings of Jesus as conveyed in the Gospels.
That doesn't obligate contemporary secular progressives to embrace Christ or Christianity, obviously. But secular and religious progressives should be natural political allies.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:02 PM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well put. There's a shallow, obnoxious sort of atheism that supposes itself to be completely "rational" and religion to be completely "irrational". In reality, we all operate with a combination of rational and irrational motivations.
And the values of most modern left-leaning Americans are recognizable to anyone with a knowledge of history as having partly originated from progressive forms of Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries (e.g., the abolitionist movement was heavily Christian)... and ultimately, as having a not-insignificant degree of rootedness in the teachings of Jesus as conveyed in the Gospels.
That doesn't obligate contemporary secular progressives to embrace Christ or Christianity, obviously. But secular and religious progressives should be natural political allies.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:02 PM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
seems like Beto 2.0 to me and more consoling to the forestalled left-Texas voters than the right win Texans with all the solutions to the world's problems.
That said, I've become persuaded the only way out of this soft civil war is with concensus radiating modestly in both directions, from the center, fringes be damned, left and right.
posted by Fupped Duck at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, I've become persuaded the only way out of this soft civil war is with concensus radiating modestly in both directions, from the center, fringes be damned, left and right.
posted by Fupped Duck at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Who would be best representative of that? I don't recall Wendy Davis being a flaming liberal
posted by Selena777 at 3:03 PM on June 19, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 3:03 PM on June 19, 2023
I've become persuaded the only way out of this soft civil war is with concensus radiating modestly in both directions, from the center, fringes be damned, left and right
I'm transgender (and a Christian!) and centrism is harmful and dangerous to me and people like me. It is not a neutral position.
posted by an octopus IRL at 3:35 PM on June 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
I'm transgender (and a Christian!) and centrism is harmful and dangerous to me and people like me. It is not a neutral position.
posted by an octopus IRL at 3:35 PM on June 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
>centrism is harmful and dangerous to me and people like me.
Please expound as to how compromise is so certainly dangerous to trans persons?
posted by Fupped Duck at 3:43 PM on June 19, 2023
Please expound as to how compromise is so certainly dangerous to trans persons?
posted by Fupped Duck at 3:43 PM on June 19, 2023
What is the compromise between "Trans people have a right to exist as human beings with all the same rights as other human beings" and "No, you don't"?
posted by hydropsyche at 3:45 PM on June 19, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:45 PM on June 19, 2023 [24 favorites]
I mean, compromise "from the center" IS harmful to sexual minorities and all kinds of other people, but more to the point, the very idea of "compromise from the center" is laughable because not only has the center been dragged to the right for decades, but also because a historically-unique juggernaut of propaganda has been for essentially as long blasting out the constant refrain that anyone not on Team Gilead is subhuman and evil and must not ever be compromised with. To argue for compromise from the center is to be either eye-poppingly naïve or willfully disingenuous, like the white guys I graduated high school with in '85 who are still arguing that libertarianism is the best system.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 3:57 PM on June 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 3:57 PM on June 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
I hate to go there, but Weimar Germany collapsed partly because the centrist parties wanted compromise, and the rightist parties were happy to back fascism rather than give the left an inch. That’s the problem with centrism.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:25 PM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:25 PM on June 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Is this centrism just because it's Christian?
posted by unknowncommand at 4:32 PM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by unknowncommand at 4:32 PM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t think so, but the thread is a little far afield.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:34 PM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:34 PM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Say what you will but "Medicaid for Y'All" is gold
posted by jason_steakums at 5:38 PM on June 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 5:38 PM on June 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
The man knows that Medicaid is a far better model for a single payer health care system than the confusing hash they made out of Medicare and the ACA. So right there he knows which side of the bread the butter is on.
He may be onto something. We’ll have to see how it goes. As long as he stays practical and in touch with real human rights and the Constitution, I can live with a little of his religion. Talarico sounds like a practical dude.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:41 PM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
He may be onto something. We’ll have to see how it goes. As long as he stays practical and in touch with real human rights and the Constitution, I can live with a little of his religion. Talarico sounds like a practical dude.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:41 PM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am disappoint in some of y'all. Talarico's a Christian and he's also the real deal. He pisses off your Empower Texan types (and if you aren't enough of a Lege-watcher to know who they are and why that's important, especially if you're not in/from/haven't lived in Texas, you may not be qualified to have a meaningful opinion about Talarico) and he does good work in the shitty environment of the Texas Legislature. Sometimes this means working with shitty people but that's because the Lege is full of them and sometimes you need their votes to get bills passed.
I'm an atheist and I sure wish I had Talarico as my state rep instead of the Park Cities jerk whose district I got gerrymandered into and who kisses up to Dan Patrick on Twitter.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:47 PM on June 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm an atheist and I sure wish I had Talarico as my state rep instead of the Park Cities jerk whose district I got gerrymandered into and who kisses up to Dan Patrick on Twitter.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:47 PM on June 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I've become persuaded the only way out of this soft civil war is with concensus radiating modestly in both directions, from the center, fringes be damned, left and right.
If one views "centrism" simply as a code word for "the center and the left agree to move to the right", it doesn't sound great. And indeed, there was a significant degree of that in the U.S. in the decades after Reagan came to power... and it did a lot of harm.
But if centrism is understood to include the idea of pulling the radical right back closer to the center, it doesn't sounds quite so bad.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:58 PM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
If one views "centrism" simply as a code word for "the center and the left agree to move to the right", it doesn't sound great. And indeed, there was a significant degree of that in the U.S. in the decades after Reagan came to power... and it did a lot of harm.
But if centrism is understood to include the idea of pulling the radical right back closer to the center, it doesn't sounds quite so bad.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:58 PM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
When the issue ultimately reduces to "individuals who feel the need to express a gender identity other than that assigned at birth should be allowed to exist and participate in society without repression, interference, or discrimination" vs. "nuh-uh!" what is it that you think is the safe and desirable compromise position?> centrism is harmful and dangerous to me and people like me.Please expound as to how compromise is so certainly dangerous to trans persons?
I would really like to know. I foresee significant derail potential to this, however, so feel free to MeMail me if you like.
posted by Nerd of the North at 9:54 PM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
The aha moment for me re centrism came when I understood that it is the position of the status quo: the belief that things may not be perfect, but they’re broadly fine and there’s no need to upset existing power structures too much. I may agree far more with the leftward centrists than the rightward ones, but they’re all centrists in the end.
That, I absolutely cannot abide.
posted by Cogito at 9:34 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
That, I absolutely cannot abide.
posted by Cogito at 9:34 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's nice for a change to see someone trying to put Christ back into American Christianity.
I don't know how successful he'll be, but shining a light on the hypocrisy of "Christians" who wield power to discriminate against and disenfranchise others is no bad thing.
It's nice to see someone publically putting Christ back into Christianity of any sort.
Those 'Christians' linked to are not at all Christians, in my view. You don't get to cherry-pick tiny phrases from the Bible and claim that this or that is an affront to God or whatever. It's people like that who give Christians a bad reputation and, unfortunately, many of them are in powerful positions both inside church organisations and in public life.
There are various definitions of what a Christian is, but a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus in their life. That means you can't both claim to be a Christian and also argue to disenfranchise any person based on [insert whatever characteristic you like]. Being a Christian means, among other things, that you treat everyone as equal in value and deserving of kindness. Unfortunately, that's not the story so-called Christians with a public voice put forward.
Centrism in politics doesn't really exist anymore, if it ever did. It's a constantly moving target and that movement has for a long time been inexorably to the right of politics. I guess it would be theoretically possible to establish some kind of actual centre of political views, with 100% good on one side and 100% evil on the other, then fix that as a measure of where things are in relation to that fixed point, but no side of politics is ever going to agree to that, because it would shine a harsh light on them all.
posted by dg at 9:52 PM on June 20, 2023
I don't know how successful he'll be, but shining a light on the hypocrisy of "Christians" who wield power to discriminate against and disenfranchise others is no bad thing.
It's nice to see someone publically putting Christ back into Christianity of any sort.
Those 'Christians' linked to are not at all Christians, in my view. You don't get to cherry-pick tiny phrases from the Bible and claim that this or that is an affront to God or whatever. It's people like that who give Christians a bad reputation and, unfortunately, many of them are in powerful positions both inside church organisations and in public life.
There are various definitions of what a Christian is, but a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus in their life. That means you can't both claim to be a Christian and also argue to disenfranchise any person based on [insert whatever characteristic you like]. Being a Christian means, among other things, that you treat everyone as equal in value and deserving of kindness. Unfortunately, that's not the story so-called Christians with a public voice put forward.
Centrism in politics doesn't really exist anymore, if it ever did. It's a constantly moving target and that movement has for a long time been inexorably to the right of politics. I guess it would be theoretically possible to establish some kind of actual centre of political views, with 100% good on one side and 100% evil on the other, then fix that as a measure of where things are in relation to that fixed point, but no side of politics is ever going to agree to that, because it would shine a harsh light on them all.
posted by dg at 9:52 PM on June 20, 2023
dg, the difference between what you’re claiming doesn’t exist and how I talk about centrism is one of definition, but I think it’s important because in our society those people get referred to as moderate, which implies reasonable. And I don’t think the status quo is at all reasonable, nor is it in line with Christ-like values which I wish I saw more of. I appreciate your comment otherwise and am curious to hear your thoughts on this.
posted by Cogito at 12:21 AM on June 21, 2023
posted by Cogito at 12:21 AM on June 21, 2023
Thanks Cogito - I was trying to express the idea that centrism is perhaps one of definition, but more so that it's not absolute, because it's dependent on each individual's perspective based on where they sit. Everyone has a different view of where the centre is, based on their own beliefs and a view that anything too far from 'their' centre is not acceptable. So, centrism doesn't really exist in any absolute way, but only as a measure of how far an individual is prepared to compromise. I was trying to envisage an absolute continuum with good at one end and evil at the other, but this is a hopeless task, simply because those terms are also relative and can't themselves be absolutely defined. In the same way, describing people as 'moderates' politically is a matter of perspective because it's almost always done from the point of view of the person describing them, not from any absolute position.
I agree that the status quo in political terms is far from reasonable, but this is what most commonly gets viewed as the centre, with various groups trying to push the centre to one side or the other and establish a new centre that's more acceptable to them. Unfortunately (from where I sit), the centre has been pushed way too far away from those Christ-like values. Those values, whether you are a Christian or not, represent a set of principles by which a person should live and, particularly, how you should treat others. Far too often, self-professed Christians have strayed a long way from those values and use distorted views of Christianity (specifically, cherry-picking small quotes from the Bible) to justify their own selfish desires.
To quote praemunire in this thread 'The very notion of "human rights" is, at bottom, religious in nature' - this is to me an absolute truth and any objective reading of the life of Jesus confirms this. I'm definitely not saying that only the religious can define what human rights should be, but a view that everyone is entitled to live their life without being attacked for who they are is absolutely consistent with true Christian values.
I believe strongly in the separation of church and state (render unto Caesar etc) and hate seeing Christianity used as a weapon to harm people when every example of this goes completely against the principles by which Christians are expected to live. I don't have a problem with an individual like Talarico expressing that his Christianity informs the values they bring to their role as a legislator, but I do have a problem with those claiming that laws must be made or retained because of some bullshit tortured interpretation of the Bible. The Bible has no place in legislative chambers - if someone believes that (eg) abortion should be illegal, let them put forward their own arguments instead of making false claims that God said so.
posted by dg at 4:55 PM on June 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I agree that the status quo in political terms is far from reasonable, but this is what most commonly gets viewed as the centre, with various groups trying to push the centre to one side or the other and establish a new centre that's more acceptable to them. Unfortunately (from where I sit), the centre has been pushed way too far away from those Christ-like values. Those values, whether you are a Christian or not, represent a set of principles by which a person should live and, particularly, how you should treat others. Far too often, self-professed Christians have strayed a long way from those values and use distorted views of Christianity (specifically, cherry-picking small quotes from the Bible) to justify their own selfish desires.
To quote praemunire in this thread 'The very notion of "human rights" is, at bottom, religious in nature' - this is to me an absolute truth and any objective reading of the life of Jesus confirms this. I'm definitely not saying that only the religious can define what human rights should be, but a view that everyone is entitled to live their life without being attacked for who they are is absolutely consistent with true Christian values.
I believe strongly in the separation of church and state (render unto Caesar etc) and hate seeing Christianity used as a weapon to harm people when every example of this goes completely against the principles by which Christians are expected to live. I don't have a problem with an individual like Talarico expressing that his Christianity informs the values they bring to their role as a legislator, but I do have a problem with those claiming that laws must be made or retained because of some bullshit tortured interpretation of the Bible. The Bible has no place in legislative chambers - if someone believes that (eg) abortion should be illegal, let them put forward their own arguments instead of making false claims that God said so.
posted by dg at 4:55 PM on June 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Centrism in politics doesn't really exist anymore, if it ever did. It's a constantly moving target and that movement has for a long time been inexorably to the right of politics.
That's just not the case. In some ways, the center has moved to the left.
For example, marriage equality is now a centrist position in the United States. 20 years ago, that was definitely not the case.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:45 PM on June 21, 2023
That's just not the case. In some ways, the center has moved to the left.
For example, marriage equality is now a centrist position in the United States. 20 years ago, that was definitely not the case.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:45 PM on June 21, 2023
That's certainly an example but, overall, I'm certain 'the centre' has moved to the right.
posted by dg at 11:48 PM on June 21, 2023
posted by dg at 11:48 PM on June 21, 2023
American political opinions are popularly understood to exist along a Bell curve. But they clearly don't. They fall into a bimodal distribution. The center in a bimodal distribution is the valley between the two bumps, by definition an unpopular position with both sides. Calls for centrism either misunderstand this (what I think is happening in this discussion) or are veiled calls to move to the "center" of the right-hand peak.
posted by joannemerriam at 6:44 AM on June 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 6:44 AM on June 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
My friend Charles, who runs a Houston-area political blog and regularly interviews local/county/state politicians (he's been doing this since the early 00s) has a post out today on the Talarico article, for those who are interested in another Texas view.
(Full disclosure: I write for his blog with Dallas-area news.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:09 AM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Full disclosure: I write for his blog with Dallas-area news.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:09 AM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
They fall into a bimodal distribution.
This is still not generally true in survey data; I just glanced at the 2020 NES.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:37 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is still not generally true in survey data; I just glanced at the 2020 NES.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:37 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
That means you can't both claim to be a Christian and also argue to disenfranchise any person based on [insert whatever characteristic you like].
One believes in the God of retribution, but also the gentle Jesus for salvation, yet both are on board with condemning people to hell and torment. It would be normal if it were just the idea that one follows someone for their wise words, but in this case one typically follows both God and Jesus in their tandem meaning as condemner and savior, and hell seems like a major disenfranchisement to me. About those words of Jesus, he implies humans are deviant and fallen, yet they resonate because we are already altruistic as individuals, though corruptible in coercive groups. So the real problem is that Jesus is preaching his own necessity to the choir, declaring that accepting him makes one good, rejecting him makes one bad, not appealing to wisdom at all. This leads to a cultivated negative view of others while claiming to conditionally care about them based on reforming, not as who they already are. It's a social recipe for burning and lynching during stressful times.
posted by Brian B. at 8:46 AM on June 30, 2023
One believes in the God of retribution, but also the gentle Jesus for salvation, yet both are on board with condemning people to hell and torment. It would be normal if it were just the idea that one follows someone for their wise words, but in this case one typically follows both God and Jesus in their tandem meaning as condemner and savior, and hell seems like a major disenfranchisement to me. About those words of Jesus, he implies humans are deviant and fallen, yet they resonate because we are already altruistic as individuals, though corruptible in coercive groups. So the real problem is that Jesus is preaching his own necessity to the choir, declaring that accepting him makes one good, rejecting him makes one bad, not appealing to wisdom at all. This leads to a cultivated negative view of others while claiming to conditionally care about them based on reforming, not as who they already are. It's a social recipe for burning and lynching during stressful times.
posted by Brian B. at 8:46 AM on June 30, 2023
Was looking the Best of up for something else and was reminded that Talarico also was one of Texas Monthly's best legislators for the 2021 legislature.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 3:19 PM on July 6, 2023
posted by gentlyepigrams at 3:19 PM on July 6, 2023
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Also, this quote from the article is the most optimistic thing I've heard out of Texas in a while: posted by jaduncan at 3:39 AM on June 19, 2023 [26 favorites]