“Truthfully, I try not to analyse my own intentions”
August 2, 2023 3:19 PM Subscribe
Ironically, it may be the “Barbenheimer” event, made possible by Nolan and Greta Gerwig, that marks a cultural denouement for the genre. As writer Aaron Hammond put it on Elon Musk’s folly, “It’d be wild if Barbenheimer goes down in history as the ‘Smells Like Teen Spirit’ that kills off the Superhero Era, which has been in its hair metal phase for a while now.” I’ve been mulling that over since the moment I read it.
I have no idea if this will end up being true but it’s got the vibe of something that could be an inflection point… I hope it is. Not that I’m even as down on the MCU box office dominance as some folks have been, but it feels done. Worse, it feels like it has become so wholey about franchise extension that they’ve started copying the errors of the people who tried to copy them and failed. It would be good to move onto something else.
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on August 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
I have no idea if this will end up being true but it’s got the vibe of something that could be an inflection point… I hope it is. Not that I’m even as down on the MCU box office dominance as some folks have been, but it feels done. Worse, it feels like it has become so wholey about franchise extension that they’ve started copying the errors of the people who tried to copy them and failed. It would be good to move onto something else.
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on August 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
it feels like the last slate of Marvel films have just been $200m, "Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion!" which is a lot of money to spend on what amounts to a filler card on a tv serial.
I'm not sure the industry at large will take notice or care. blumhouse has been in the zero to $20m budget film game for almost two decades and raking in the cash on their hits, but it hasn't really caused much of a change in the traditional studio model. a24 is putting out interesting films but basically only to critical acclaim and nothing else, i mean everything everywhere all at once was their first feature to gross over $100m and that was just last year.
posted by Bwentman at 4:52 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure the industry at large will take notice or care. blumhouse has been in the zero to $20m budget film game for almost two decades and raking in the cash on their hits, but it hasn't really caused much of a change in the traditional studio model. a24 is putting out interesting films but basically only to critical acclaim and nothing else, i mean everything everywhere all at once was their first feature to gross over $100m and that was just last year.
posted by Bwentman at 4:52 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
“Wow, that was fun! What else is on?” is a perfectly natural reaction.
For me, it's that watching any Marvel movie feels like a fucking homework assignment. I know I've missed some small-yet-somehow important details from n other movies, and I'm expected to rent those movies in order to catch up with the parts of the narrative they left out of this one. That's the worst part of the genre: it killed my love for comic books. I used to love comic books, but now I just don't care. I hate that Marvel did that to me. I used to be a film projectionist and I loved movies and I loved comic books. Now they are all an absolute chore.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:54 PM on August 2, 2023 [45 favorites]
For me, it's that watching any Marvel movie feels like a fucking homework assignment. I know I've missed some small-yet-somehow important details from n other movies, and I'm expected to rent those movies in order to catch up with the parts of the narrative they left out of this one. That's the worst part of the genre: it killed my love for comic books. I used to love comic books, but now I just don't care. I hate that Marvel did that to me. I used to be a film projectionist and I loved movies and I loved comic books. Now they are all an absolute chore.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:54 PM on August 2, 2023 [45 favorites]
Now they are all an absolute chore.
to be fair, isn't that basically what story arcs in comics have been like since way before the film craze? i mean, i remember stories spilling over into five or six different titles, especially the ones with massive, in-universe implications. it's why I've moved to reading either indie series or graphic novels with contained stories and it's a lot more enjoyable that way. because you're right, it's an incredible chore to keep up with every series and issue that encompasses a broader storyline. and even more incredibly expensive.
posted by Bwentman at 5:05 PM on August 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
to be fair, isn't that basically what story arcs in comics have been like since way before the film craze? i mean, i remember stories spilling over into five or six different titles, especially the ones with massive, in-universe implications. it's why I've moved to reading either indie series or graphic novels with contained stories and it's a lot more enjoyable that way. because you're right, it's an incredible chore to keep up with every series and issue that encompasses a broader storyline. and even more incredibly expensive.
posted by Bwentman at 5:05 PM on August 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
it's an incredible chore to keep up with every series and issue that encompasses a broader storyline. and even more incredibly expensive
While I'm by no means made out of money, I'm even less made out of time or attention span.
posted by aubilenon at 5:12 PM on August 2, 2023 [43 favorites]
While I'm by no means made out of money, I'm even less made out of time or attention span.
posted by aubilenon at 5:12 PM on August 2, 2023 [43 favorites]
I've been thinking lately about how, with the MCU, Marvel has created something monumental in art on a scale unseen until now (outside of architecture, I suppose). It's not hard to imagine that, a hundred years from now, there are multi-day or week festivals dedicated to watching them all in order; or university courses in film studies unpacking all of it. It's an actual coherent work, a 21st century ring cycle, and analysis of it will almost certainly be completely different from how we feel about it now.
posted by fatbird at 5:53 PM on August 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 5:53 PM on August 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
i mean everything everywhere all at once was their first feature to gross over $100m
Its budget was less than 25million. It made 141million. Return on investment, indeed.
posted by hippybear at 5:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Its budget was less than 25million. It made 141million. Return on investment, indeed.
posted by hippybear at 5:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's an actual coherent work, a 21st century ring cycle, and analysis of it will almost certainly be completely different from how we feel about it now.
I guess the counter argument here would be that it is up until Endgame, and then everything else is epilogue, inessential or floundering attempt to build a new overarching narrative.
posted by Artw at 6:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
I guess the counter argument here would be that it is up until Endgame, and then everything else is epilogue, inessential or floundering attempt to build a new overarching narrative.
posted by Artw at 6:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
isn't that basically what story arcs in comics have been like since way before the film craze
I liked that the article (Written by Sean T. Collins, who knows their comics) referenced comic jumping off points, which are stories that unintentionally give readers the opportunity to walk away from a series or character with a certain feeling of closure, it validates my take that Marvel movies did in 10 years what Marvel comics took 30+ to accomplish: start fresh, succeed, dominate, create a glut of product to hog shelf-space, flounder, collapse in on itself.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
I liked that the article (Written by Sean T. Collins, who knows their comics) referenced comic jumping off points, which are stories that unintentionally give readers the opportunity to walk away from a series or character with a certain feeling of closure, it validates my take that Marvel movies did in 10 years what Marvel comics took 30+ to accomplish: start fresh, succeed, dominate, create a glut of product to hog shelf-space, flounder, collapse in on itself.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
can't the end of the superhero genre be because superhero movies have been getting gradually worse
like MCU stuff used to at least be a consistent solid B- but post-Endgame it's been pretty steadily downhill overall
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:15 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
like MCU stuff used to at least be a consistent solid B- but post-Endgame it's been pretty steadily downhill overall
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:15 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
and then everything else is epilogue
See, you've already found the most 101 essay topic that makes the grad students grind their teeth at having to grade 400 of them.
posted by fatbird at 6:22 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
See, you've already found the most 101 essay topic that makes the grad students grind their teeth at having to grade 400 of them.
posted by fatbird at 6:22 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
See, you've already found the most 101 essay topic that makes the grad students grind their teeth at having to grade 400 of them.
“The superhero franchise used to top out at 4-5 movies. Then MCU happened and went to 32. Then everyone went back to 4-5 again… what happened?”
posted by Artw at 6:25 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
“The superhero franchise used to top out at 4-5 movies. Then MCU happened and went to 32. Then everyone went back to 4-5 again… what happened?”
posted by Artw at 6:25 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wow, there are 321 posts tagged Marvel so comparatively 36.4% of dogs, 26.5% of advertising, 23.7% of economics, or 15.2% of technology. Awfully big discussion topic here..
posted by jeffburdges at 6:27 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 6:27 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dunno who could have done that… /whistles
posted by Artw at 6:30 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:30 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
While superhero movies continue to make money, there is zero chance that they will stop making them. And if they continue to make money it's because people are paying money to watch them. For what it's worth, I enjoy the MCU movies - they are fun, often witty, are great to look at and can pull you in by the complexity of the many storylines. Are these art house movies? Absolutely not, and they aren't marketed as such but there's a place for them just as much as there's a place for smaller scale but equally captivating (in different ways) movies. There's room in my life for A24 movies and superhero movies. Go ahead, judge me. :)
posted by ashbury at 6:30 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by ashbury at 6:30 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
It’s entirely possible they’ll make one a big event again, but it feels like the first time for a decade or so where it’s possible they just won’t.
posted by Artw at 6:40 PM on August 2, 2023
posted by Artw at 6:40 PM on August 2, 2023
...Guardians of the Galaxy 3 made nearly $850 million worldwide (on a budget of $250m).
Of course, it actually serves--deliberately, I think--as a jumping off point, as it has actual narrative closure reflecting the departure of several stars and the director from Marvel work.
posted by praemunire at 7:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Of course, it actually serves--deliberately, I think--as a jumping off point, as it has actual narrative closure reflecting the departure of several stars and the director from Marvel work.
posted by praemunire at 7:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
The phenomenon that drives the success of the superhero movies is the same that drives the Barbie/Oppenheimer success. When people watch a movie in theatres they want to see a movie that's "worth seeing on the big screen". Just because Barbie and Oppenheimer aren't part of a franchise doesn't mean that we're going to start seeing a greater variety of films succeed - they had better make a big visual statement. Also when do we mention Barbie's marketing budget? Sure, non-franchise films have a chance - as long as the marketing budget is as big as the budget for the whole rest of the movie.
posted by matcha action at 7:18 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by matcha action at 7:18 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
You know what Marvel should do? Soft reboot in the next few years.
The multiversal war against Kang almost completely destroys the universe. All is darkness. But then some version of Thanos does what he wanted to do originally -- destroy and recreate the universe using the Infinity Stones.
New universe! We see old Tony Stark being a responsible industrialist. Carol Danvers is a pilot, Natasha Romanoff is a teacher, etc. The Avengers never happened because in this new universe, the Fantastic Four and the X-Men came about in the '60s. Along with Blade and whatever else they got.
Only Dr. Strange renembers what was. He's old, and it's no longer able to do magic, but he remembers.
Yeaaag. That would be neat.
MCU 2.0 begins.
posted by Chronorin at 7:20 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
The multiversal war against Kang almost completely destroys the universe. All is darkness. But then some version of Thanos does what he wanted to do originally -- destroy and recreate the universe using the Infinity Stones.
New universe! We see old Tony Stark being a responsible industrialist. Carol Danvers is a pilot, Natasha Romanoff is a teacher, etc. The Avengers never happened because in this new universe, the Fantastic Four and the X-Men came about in the '60s. Along with Blade and whatever else they got.
Only Dr. Strange renembers what was. He's old, and it's no longer able to do magic, but he remembers.
Yeaaag. That would be neat.
MCU 2.0 begins.
posted by Chronorin at 7:20 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
The film industry is in crisis. It can learn a lot from the 1970s.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on August 2, 2023
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on August 2, 2023
Now they are all an absolute chore.
I am kind of neutral on MCU/DC movies. Of the handful that I've seen, some are good, some are not. But my passiveness in watching these movies compounds the number of movies over time. I have a lot of catching up to do. If Endgame is my goal in finishing the MCU, the last time I counted I think I have something like 15 or 16 movies to watch. And the worst part is that, if I am going to be a completionist, that means I have to watch the movies that everyone seems to agree really suck. Because there might be something even in those that will pop up in Endgame, so I've gotta see it. And once I've done that, there's all those DC movies...
posted by zardoz at 7:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am kind of neutral on MCU/DC movies. Of the handful that I've seen, some are good, some are not. But my passiveness in watching these movies compounds the number of movies over time. I have a lot of catching up to do. If Endgame is my goal in finishing the MCU, the last time I counted I think I have something like 15 or 16 movies to watch. And the worst part is that, if I am going to be a completionist, that means I have to watch the movies that everyone seems to agree really suck. Because there might be something even in those that will pop up in Endgame, so I've gotta see it. And once I've done that, there's all those DC movies...
posted by zardoz at 7:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
to be fair, isn't that basically what story arcs in comics have been like since way before the film craze?
*SEE ISH #256 -- ED.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
*SEE ISH #256 -- ED.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
butterflymeme ("film critics","any story about a collaborative effort", "is this about film making?")
posted by fleacircus at 7:57 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fleacircus at 7:57 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
“The superhero franchise used to top out at 4-5 movies. Then MCU happened and went to 32. Then everyone went back to 4-5 again… what happened?”
Somebody snapped their fingers and restored balance?
posted by nubs at 8:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Somebody snapped their fingers and restored balance?
posted by nubs at 8:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
All I know is that Barbenheimer was refreshingly adult (both sides), and I haven’t really felt that in a blockbuster movie in a long, long time — adult movies really as part of the national conversation.
(Not begrudging superhero movies, they’re just not my bag, and I unhesitatingly admit I’m in the minority on that.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:06 PM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
(Not begrudging superhero movies, they’re just not my bag, and I unhesitatingly admit I’m in the minority on that.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:06 PM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
"Radioactive Drew" has seen Oppenheimer 17 times, with 78 more to go. He is a 70mm projectionist and takes us through the very physical and by no means hazard-free process of setting up the film (as per his name, he is also an expert on radiation - so his criticism of the movie, at the end, is worth a listen).
posted by rongorongo at 10:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 10:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
isn't that basically what story arcs in comics have been like since way before the film craze
it’s kind of poetic that the big comics players managed to overextend themselves in film the same way they did in comics
posted by atoxyl at 11:01 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
it’s kind of poetic that the big comics players managed to overextend themselves in film the same way they did in comics
posted by atoxyl at 11:01 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
You just know the studios are going to learn all the wrong lessons from Barbenheimer. Barbenheimer was something that grew organically on social media. I expect the studios are going to try to replicate it and it's going to be hilariously backfire.
posted by Pendragon at 12:26 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 12:26 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I thought Warner Brothers purposefully put them on the same weekend to threaten their erstwhile director Nolan, who had defied them
posted by eustatic at 4:05 AM on August 3, 2023
posted by eustatic at 4:05 AM on August 3, 2023
When people say "superhero movies" do they mean "action franchise movies"? I don't really see why the MCU is vastly worse than the "Fast and Furious" or "Mission Impossible" or "John Wick" movies. If anything the MCU at least has a bit more variety in terms of characters.
I'm sure people/moviemakers will get bored of superhero movies eventually, but that might just mean switching to other kinds of action franchise. Maybe it will be Westerns, and we'll get the Louis L'Amour Cinematic Universe where the Sacketts saga finally gets its big screen due...
Oppenheimer's trick seems to be that it's an old-fashioned middlebrow biopic which also has BIG EXPLOSION and BOOMY SOUND that makes it worth trekking out to a movie theater for. I'm not sure how replicable that's going to be. Are there going to be a bunch of serious movies with intense acting performances and boomy explosions now?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:08 AM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm sure people/moviemakers will get bored of superhero movies eventually, but that might just mean switching to other kinds of action franchise. Maybe it will be Westerns, and we'll get the Louis L'Amour Cinematic Universe where the Sacketts saga finally gets its big screen due...
Oppenheimer's trick seems to be that it's an old-fashioned middlebrow biopic which also has BIG EXPLOSION and BOOMY SOUND that makes it worth trekking out to a movie theater for. I'm not sure how replicable that's going to be. Are there going to be a bunch of serious movies with intense acting performances and boomy explosions now?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:08 AM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
You just know the studios are going to learn all the wrong lessons from Barbenheimer. Barbenheimer was something that grew organically on social media. I expect the studios are going to try to replicate it and it's going to be hilariously backfire.
Coming to theatres near you, Saw Patrol. That is, torture-porn "Saw X" and lovable animated rescue dogs, "Paw Patrol: The Mighty Movie" as a double bill.
We're doomed.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:10 AM on August 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
Coming to theatres near you, Saw Patrol. That is, torture-porn "Saw X" and lovable animated rescue dogs, "Paw Patrol: The Mighty Movie" as a double bill.
We're doomed.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:10 AM on August 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
So the phenom itself is a kind of defiance or détournement of marketing bullshit
posted by eustatic at 4:11 AM on August 3, 2023
posted by eustatic at 4:11 AM on August 3, 2023
I don't really see why the MCU is vastly worse than the "Fast and Furious" or "Mission Impossible" or "John Wick" movies.
Well, one practical problem is that Disney MCU has expanded the U to all sorts of TV series and put all of their product behind the walled garden of Disney Plus. Will the next MCU movie make any sense if I haven't seen 3 different series and the 4 previous movies? I genuinely don't know, and if I don't want to shell out for Disney Plus and haven't the time or spoons to consume all those hours of media, I'm maybe not so inclined to take the chance.
Whereas those other action franchises have flung themselves all over various delivery services - Netflix, HBO, Hulu, Amazon, free ad-supported streamers, on and on and on. John Wick 4 might require me to watch 1-3, but there's a darn good chance I could have caught them within the last year with no more effort than pushing "play" on the remote.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:08 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, one practical problem is that Disney MCU has expanded the U to all sorts of TV series and put all of their product behind the walled garden of Disney Plus. Will the next MCU movie make any sense if I haven't seen 3 different series and the 4 previous movies? I genuinely don't know, and if I don't want to shell out for Disney Plus and haven't the time or spoons to consume all those hours of media, I'm maybe not so inclined to take the chance.
Whereas those other action franchises have flung themselves all over various delivery services - Netflix, HBO, Hulu, Amazon, free ad-supported streamers, on and on and on. John Wick 4 might require me to watch 1-3, but there's a darn good chance I could have caught them within the last year with no more effort than pushing "play" on the remote.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:08 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Most superhero movies just don't have anything interesting to say any more. They just read as jingoistic patriarchal pseudo-military bullshit reinforcing the status quo in the name of "saving the world." Fuck right off, the world doesn't need to be saved, the world needs to be changed. Give me a hero who destroys capitalism by evaporating all the banks, or flings billionaires into an alternate universe where they can feast on each other, or rewrites human DNA so we solve social problems by fucking instead of fighting. Show me a BETTER WORLD, that's the kind of hero movie I want.
Brie Larson is really great, though, and I deeply mourn the loss of Chadwick Boseman.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:24 AM on August 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
Brie Larson is really great, though, and I deeply mourn the loss of Chadwick Boseman.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:24 AM on August 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
I'm not sure where A24 came from but I've noticed that name on alot of movies that interest me lately, so I hope they keep it up.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:50 AM on August 3, 2023
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:50 AM on August 3, 2023
You can buy A24 soap:
A24 x Wary Meyers Test Card Soap $16
posted by sammyo at 7:14 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
A24 x Wary Meyers Test Card Soap $16
posted by sammyo at 7:14 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I enjoy the occasional MCU thing, and there were certainly some excellent movies and shows. But it definitely seems to be hitting a saturation point.
I can't bring myself to care about Blade, Thunderbolts, or Fantastic 4 at all. Even my enthusiasm for some former favorite characters has been dampened.
posted by Foosnark at 7:15 AM on August 3, 2023
I can't bring myself to care about Blade, Thunderbolts, or Fantastic 4 at all. Even my enthusiasm for some former favorite characters has been dampened.
posted by Foosnark at 7:15 AM on August 3, 2023
> I don't really see why the MCU is vastly worse than the "Fast and Furious" or "Mission Impossible" or "John Wick" movies.
i mean the difference is that the john wick and mission impossible movies are movies made for adults and are actually pretty good instead of bad. being good instead of bad is an important quality when it comes to movies.
posted by dis_integration at 7:23 AM on August 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
i mean the difference is that the john wick and mission impossible movies are movies made for adults and are actually pretty good instead of bad. being good instead of bad is an important quality when it comes to movies.
posted by dis_integration at 7:23 AM on August 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Will the next MCU movie make any sense if I haven't seen 3 different series and the 4 previous movies? I genuinely don't know, and if I don't want to shell out for Disney Plus and haven't the time or spoons to consume all those hours of media, I'm maybe not so inclined to take the chance.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:08 AM on August 3 [2 favorites +] [!]
"The Marvels" is going to fall flat on it's face because of this (and also because Dune is slated to come out a week prior and it will hoard the IMAX screens AND also because of the overt misogyny in the fandom). I've seen all the Marvel movies (most of them just once) and I do not have time for any shows. That means, based on what I've seen, I'll understand exactly 1/3rd of "The Marvels".
posted by The Notorious SRD at 7:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by soundguy99 at 5:08 AM on August 3 [2 favorites +] [!]
"The Marvels" is going to fall flat on it's face because of this (and also because Dune is slated to come out a week prior and it will hoard the IMAX screens AND also because of the overt misogyny in the fandom). I've seen all the Marvel movies (most of them just once) and I do not have time for any shows. That means, based on what I've seen, I'll understand exactly 1/3rd of "The Marvels".
posted by The Notorious SRD at 7:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hmm, next time I go I'll definitely ask the staff if I'm seeing the "made for adults" versions rather than the ones I've been watching so far.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I enjoy the occasional MCU thing, and there were certainly some excellent movies and shows. But it definitely seems to be hitting a saturation point.
I don't think it's a saturation point, but a low quality point. Case in point is Secret Invasion, which had a fantastic cast with Samuel L. Jackson, Don Cheadle, Kingsley Ben-Adir, Emilia Clarke, Ben Mendelsohn, Olivia Coleman, Martin Freeman, and Cobie Smulders. You could just mention that cast and I'd be down to watch that tv show/movie/theatre production/whatever.
But based on the discussion of the finale of the six episode series over in Fanfare (spoiler warning, link to thread), a lot of people were left wanting. The plot and script were astonishing in how poorly they were done, despite the reportedly 200 million dollar budget. The Marvel Cinematic Universe seems hellbent on promising great stories, but in the end only delivering spectacle and that's only going to work for so long.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:40 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't think it's a saturation point, but a low quality point. Case in point is Secret Invasion, which had a fantastic cast with Samuel L. Jackson, Don Cheadle, Kingsley Ben-Adir, Emilia Clarke, Ben Mendelsohn, Olivia Coleman, Martin Freeman, and Cobie Smulders. You could just mention that cast and I'd be down to watch that tv show/movie/theatre production/whatever.
But based on the discussion of the finale of the six episode series over in Fanfare (spoiler warning, link to thread), a lot of people were left wanting. The plot and script were astonishing in how poorly they were done, despite the reportedly 200 million dollar budget. The Marvel Cinematic Universe seems hellbent on promising great stories, but in the end only delivering spectacle and that's only going to work for so long.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:40 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
the john wick and mission impossible movies are movies made for adults
Oh, come on. I truly enjoyed John Wick 4, but near the beginning a dude apparently trying to have a business conversation about the other dude's failure to eliminate someone interfering with their criming business reaches into his bag and solemnly pulls out...a giant hourglass. While talking about being "excommunicado" and the destruction of a "consecrated" hotel. It's Clancy Brown, Ian McShane, and Lance Reddick, so they sell it in the moment--also, crucially, it's fun--but it is also the most "twelve-year-old kids playing assassins' guild" scene you could possibly imagine.
Like the comics themselves, MCU movies are best understood, when they're not just solid action, as less telling a great story than giving you something to pull out and remodel into your own story (bluntly, fanfic source material). What Black Panther and its sequel were trying to do I assume I don't need to explain. In other post-Endgame offerings, Black Widow and Shang-Chi are both explicitly about breaking free of brutally abusive and exploitative systems and the reckoning with those complicit and those left behind. Captain Marvel has many of the same overtones but is obviously more overtly comic and nostalgic. The whole Guardians franchise is basically a Gen X Putting the Pieces Together After Abusive Boomers story, and probably you'll never see a scene closer to Dad Comes Home Drunk and Mad in a Disney movie than the scene where the bad guy comes in at night screaming for Rocket. They're not great or even necessarily good movies about these things, mind you, and I don't think "adult" fits them, either, but they are trying to be about them amidst all the CGI. And then a fair number of them just suck (Quantumania), and it's hard to sift even the weirdo but worthwhile signal from the noise of twelve other Marvel products, so the fatigue is understandable.
To be honest, though, when I saw the Oppenheimer trailers I struggled to understand how this movie was being made in 2023. It looked like a bog-standard story you could've pulled from any decade from the 1970s onwards ("middlebrow" isn't a word I much care for but occasionally something really does seem to aiming for that particular cultural niche), presumably dressed up with Nolan's time jumps and some nice sound. So far I haven't been able to bring myself to commit the three hours to it, because...why? Maybe the trailers have misrepresented it, I guess it's an "adult" movie, but what new does it have to say?
(For the purposes of this particular discussion, Barbie is a perfect angel that can do no wrong, despite being the one being most explicitly and openly non-adult.)
posted by praemunire at 8:18 AM on August 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Oh, come on. I truly enjoyed John Wick 4, but near the beginning a dude apparently trying to have a business conversation about the other dude's failure to eliminate someone interfering with their criming business reaches into his bag and solemnly pulls out...a giant hourglass. While talking about being "excommunicado" and the destruction of a "consecrated" hotel. It's Clancy Brown, Ian McShane, and Lance Reddick, so they sell it in the moment--also, crucially, it's fun--but it is also the most "twelve-year-old kids playing assassins' guild" scene you could possibly imagine.
Like the comics themselves, MCU movies are best understood, when they're not just solid action, as less telling a great story than giving you something to pull out and remodel into your own story (bluntly, fanfic source material). What Black Panther and its sequel were trying to do I assume I don't need to explain. In other post-Endgame offerings, Black Widow and Shang-Chi are both explicitly about breaking free of brutally abusive and exploitative systems and the reckoning with those complicit and those left behind. Captain Marvel has many of the same overtones but is obviously more overtly comic and nostalgic. The whole Guardians franchise is basically a Gen X Putting the Pieces Together After Abusive Boomers story, and probably you'll never see a scene closer to Dad Comes Home Drunk and Mad in a Disney movie than the scene where the bad guy comes in at night screaming for Rocket. They're not great or even necessarily good movies about these things, mind you, and I don't think "adult" fits them, either, but they are trying to be about them amidst all the CGI. And then a fair number of them just suck (Quantumania), and it's hard to sift even the weirdo but worthwhile signal from the noise of twelve other Marvel products, so the fatigue is understandable.
To be honest, though, when I saw the Oppenheimer trailers I struggled to understand how this movie was being made in 2023. It looked like a bog-standard story you could've pulled from any decade from the 1970s onwards ("middlebrow" isn't a word I much care for but occasionally something really does seem to aiming for that particular cultural niche), presumably dressed up with Nolan's time jumps and some nice sound. So far I haven't been able to bring myself to commit the three hours to it, because...why? Maybe the trailers have misrepresented it, I guess it's an "adult" movie, but what new does it have to say?
(For the purposes of this particular discussion, Barbie is a perfect angel that can do no wrong, despite being the one being most explicitly and openly non-adult.)
posted by praemunire at 8:18 AM on August 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yeaaag. That would be neat.
MCU 2.0 begins.
This is a horrible curse you've manifested upon the land.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:47 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
MCU 2.0 begins.
This is a horrible curse you've manifested upon the land.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:47 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also when do we mention Barbie's marketing budget? Sure, non-franchise films have a chance - as long as the marketing budget is as big as the budget for the whole rest of the movie.
It may not be (or have been, more accurately) a film franchise, but I'm not sure calling Barbie "non-franchise" is quite right either. It's very much an established property.
posted by Dysk at 9:25 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
It may not be (or have been, more accurately) a film franchise, but I'm not sure calling Barbie "non-franchise" is quite right either. It's very much an established property.
posted by Dysk at 9:25 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is a horrible curse you've manifested upon the land.
I not that there is something called “Secret Wars” on the slate, which could refer to one of two marvel comics stories, one of which is a radical destruction and rebuilding of the universe.
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on August 3, 2023
I not that there is something called “Secret Wars” on the slate, which could refer to one of two marvel comics stories, one of which is a radical destruction and rebuilding of the universe.
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on August 3, 2023
Comics resets to clear the decks, simplify continuity and bring everything back to its core concepts pretty much NEVER work, BTW. The crud and complexity always comes back.
Then you have the sad case of DC Comics which is now stuck in a permanent loop of reboots to the point where I cannot be arsed with them.
posted by Artw at 9:44 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Then you have the sad case of DC Comics which is now stuck in a permanent loop of reboots to the point where I cannot be arsed with them.
posted by Artw at 9:44 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
when I saw the Oppenheimer trailers I struggled to understand how this movie was being made in 2023
Me too, but also because John Adams and Peter Sellers already told this story in magnificent fashion back in 2005, in their opera Doctor Atomic. It's really good, full of pathos and 'what-have-I-wrought' introspection, but with some great singing, too. (Available to stream here, some highlights if you're curious: Oppenheimer's big Act I finale aria, Batter My Heart; epic Act II chorus, At the Sight of This; Adams & Sellers discussing 'Science and the Soul' with some UC Berkeley scientists.)
(On that tangent: I think that the creative work that best captures the last few decades of the 20th century is not a movie or TV show, it's Adams' 1987 opera Nixon in China, libretto by Alice Goodman. Movies are great, but when you really need to tell an operatic-scale story...well, opera is still kinda best for that, has been for the past 400 years.)
posted by LooseFilter at 9:47 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Me too, but also because John Adams and Peter Sellers already told this story in magnificent fashion back in 2005, in their opera Doctor Atomic. It's really good, full of pathos and 'what-have-I-wrought' introspection, but with some great singing, too. (Available to stream here, some highlights if you're curious: Oppenheimer's big Act I finale aria, Batter My Heart; epic Act II chorus, At the Sight of This; Adams & Sellers discussing 'Science and the Soul' with some UC Berkeley scientists.)
(On that tangent: I think that the creative work that best captures the last few decades of the 20th century is not a movie or TV show, it's Adams' 1987 opera Nixon in China, libretto by Alice Goodman. Movies are great, but when you really need to tell an operatic-scale story...well, opera is still kinda best for that, has been for the past 400 years.)
posted by LooseFilter at 9:47 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't really see why the MCU is vastly worse than the "Fast and Furious" or "Mission Impossible" or "John Wick" movies.
A huge reason for me is this:
Mission: Impossible began in 1996 (not counting the TV show, which is a separate continuity) and will have eight films in it over 30 years, assuming Dead Reckoning Part 2 doesn't get delayed past 2026.
The Fast and the Furious started in 2001 and has had ten films plus a spin-off over 22 years.
John Wick started in 2014 and over the course of a decade has had four films and a spin-off scheduled tentatively for next year (who knows what the strike may bring though).
Meanwhile, the MCU Wikipedia page lists THIRTY-TWO movies since 2008, plus ELEVEN TV shows from Marvel Television (the pre-Disney+ phase I think) plus TEN TV shows from the Disney+ era, plus some one-shots. I'm sure if I googled for it, I'd find fourteen SEO-garbage articles telling me which of those movies and TV shows is crucial to understanding, say, The Marvels or whatever the next big tentpole movie in the MCU is supposed to be, and which ones have references that might be important but hey no big deal if you miss it, and which are completely ignorable this time but oh hey in a few years it might be really important for the Secret Wars timeline or whatever.
I hadn't seen the Mission Impossible movies in a hot minute when Dead Reckoning came out, so I decided to rewatch them all. It took maybe three nights total. If I tried to catch up on everything I missed (never mind everything I've already watched) before The Marvels, I'd probably have to start now and live in a cave until the movie comes out in a few months.
The amount of material the MCU puts out is ginormous compared to all other franchises. From the standpoint of "why is the MCU worse than other franchises," it's that if the MCU is bad, a much greater percentage of mainstream cinema is affected. The other franchises, as big as they are, simply aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. If Mission Impossible or Fast & the Furious sink beneath the waves of their own hubris tomorrow, well, no worries, something else will surely take their place. Very few things approach the sheer size of the MCU.
posted by chrominance at 10:06 AM on August 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
A huge reason for me is this:
Mission: Impossible began in 1996 (not counting the TV show, which is a separate continuity) and will have eight films in it over 30 years, assuming Dead Reckoning Part 2 doesn't get delayed past 2026.
The Fast and the Furious started in 2001 and has had ten films plus a spin-off over 22 years.
John Wick started in 2014 and over the course of a decade has had four films and a spin-off scheduled tentatively for next year (who knows what the strike may bring though).
Meanwhile, the MCU Wikipedia page lists THIRTY-TWO movies since 2008, plus ELEVEN TV shows from Marvel Television (the pre-Disney+ phase I think) plus TEN TV shows from the Disney+ era, plus some one-shots. I'm sure if I googled for it, I'd find fourteen SEO-garbage articles telling me which of those movies and TV shows is crucial to understanding, say, The Marvels or whatever the next big tentpole movie in the MCU is supposed to be, and which ones have references that might be important but hey no big deal if you miss it, and which are completely ignorable this time but oh hey in a few years it might be really important for the Secret Wars timeline or whatever.
I hadn't seen the Mission Impossible movies in a hot minute when Dead Reckoning came out, so I decided to rewatch them all. It took maybe three nights total. If I tried to catch up on everything I missed (never mind everything I've already watched) before The Marvels, I'd probably have to start now and live in a cave until the movie comes out in a few months.
The amount of material the MCU puts out is ginormous compared to all other franchises. From the standpoint of "why is the MCU worse than other franchises," it's that if the MCU is bad, a much greater percentage of mainstream cinema is affected. The other franchises, as big as they are, simply aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. If Mission Impossible or Fast & the Furious sink beneath the waves of their own hubris tomorrow, well, no worries, something else will surely take their place. Very few things approach the sheer size of the MCU.
posted by chrominance at 10:06 AM on August 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Barbenheimer was something that grew organically on social media. I expect the studios are going to try to replicate it and it's going to be hilariously backfire.
That's not the first grass-roots social-media film response, though - studios have ignored others, from what I can recall. Then again, the biggest social-media grass-roots thing I can recall before this was Snakes On A Plane, which kind of knew it sucked and leaned into it; and Hollywood has been releasing quick-and-dirty cheap thrillers like that since time immemorial. (The only other social-media thing I can think of was when kids would dress up in suits to go see a Minons movie, and I think studios were like, "yeah, no idea.")
...It may be an interesting point for speculation: the people behind that 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die series have only selected 4 movies from the MCU for inclusion in the list (and one or two may have since been removed for the most current edition of the book). And a couple of them seem like obvious choices, but there's a curious inclusion and some other curious absences...the films that made the cut are Infinity War, Endgame, Black Panther, and the original Guardians Of The Galaxy.
I can see the first three (Infinity War/Endgame was one hell of a juggernaut, and Black Panther not only had Chadwick Boseman, it also had a hell of a cultural impact). But....Guardians? And not the original Iron Man, which launched the whole franchise? Or Thor: Ragnarok, the Great Unleashing Of Taika Waititi Unto The World At Large?
I just find it interesting food for thought when it comes to what critics think makes a movie culturally important.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:07 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's not the first grass-roots social-media film response, though - studios have ignored others, from what I can recall. Then again, the biggest social-media grass-roots thing I can recall before this was Snakes On A Plane, which kind of knew it sucked and leaned into it; and Hollywood has been releasing quick-and-dirty cheap thrillers like that since time immemorial. (The only other social-media thing I can think of was when kids would dress up in suits to go see a Minons movie, and I think studios were like, "yeah, no idea.")
...It may be an interesting point for speculation: the people behind that 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die series have only selected 4 movies from the MCU for inclusion in the list (and one or two may have since been removed for the most current edition of the book). And a couple of them seem like obvious choices, but there's a curious inclusion and some other curious absences...the films that made the cut are Infinity War, Endgame, Black Panther, and the original Guardians Of The Galaxy.
I can see the first three (Infinity War/Endgame was one hell of a juggernaut, and Black Panther not only had Chadwick Boseman, it also had a hell of a cultural impact). But....Guardians? And not the original Iron Man, which launched the whole franchise? Or Thor: Ragnarok, the Great Unleashing Of Taika Waititi Unto The World At Large?
I just find it interesting food for thought when it comes to what critics think makes a movie culturally important.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:07 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's a saturation point, but a low quality point. Case in point is Secret Invasion...
See, I was honestly not even aware Secret Invasion had happened yet, because I'm just not trying to keep up with everything anymore.
To me the enjoyability of the movies has been fairly random, not necessarily on a declining arc. But my interest in following everything and getting MORE comic book movies and shows has certainly taken a downturn.
posted by Foosnark at 10:15 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
See, I was honestly not even aware Secret Invasion had happened yet, because I'm just not trying to keep up with everything anymore.
To me the enjoyability of the movies has been fairly random, not necessarily on a declining arc. But my interest in following everything and getting MORE comic book movies and shows has certainly taken a downturn.
posted by Foosnark at 10:15 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
lso when do we mention Barbie's marketing budget? Sure, non-franchise films have a chance - as long as the marketing budget is as big as the budget for the whole rest of the movie.
I feel pretty confident that Barbie's marketing budget was more than the film budget.
posted by subdee at 10:18 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel pretty confident that Barbie's marketing budget was more than the film budget.
posted by subdee at 10:18 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hadn't seen the Mission Impossible movies in a hot minute when Dead Reckoning came out, so I decided to rewatch them all. It took maybe three nights total. If I tried to catch up on everything I missed (never mind everything I've already watched) before The Marvels, I'd probably have to start now and live in a cave until the movie comes out in a few months.
You can also walk into any of the Mission Impossible films without having seen the priors; it helps, but each one does a pretty good job of being stand alone; characters are reintroduced when needed, and the stakes are always spelled out before the next action set piece. Even Dead Reckoning PT I is pretty good about wrapping up its story while setting the hook for the next. Marvel isn't so much that way anymore.
posted by nubs at 10:24 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
You can also walk into any of the Mission Impossible films without having seen the priors; it helps, but each one does a pretty good job of being stand alone; characters are reintroduced when needed, and the stakes are always spelled out before the next action set piece. Even Dead Reckoning PT I is pretty good about wrapping up its story while setting the hook for the next. Marvel isn't so much that way anymore.
posted by nubs at 10:24 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Even Dead Reckoning PT I is pretty good about wrapping up its story while setting the hook for the next.
Yeah, DR 1 was the first of these movies that I'd seen in several years. In fact, I honestly can't remember what the last one I saw was. But I didn't have any trouble following the story, even if that meant including what felt like an unbelievably awkward at the time recap of long-past events in the opening mission tape (which reminded me who Esai Morales's character was).
I think the need to follow all the threads of the various MCU films is somewhat exaggerated by the listicle crowd (what would they do without "XX ending explained!" and "what you need to know before seeing YY!" pieces?). Like, if you see a new character in the post-credits scene who you don't recognize, it doesn't undermine the movie for the most part! It just means that people who do will get super-excited, and you at least will hopefully be at least intrigued for the next one. Heck, I only saw GotG 2 to humor a friend; I'd refused to see the first one because I was mad that the talking tree was getting a movie before Natasha; but I could follow vol. 2 okay. Still, it's fair to say that it's become more of a burden.
posted by praemunire at 10:36 AM on August 3, 2023
Yeah, DR 1 was the first of these movies that I'd seen in several years. In fact, I honestly can't remember what the last one I saw was. But I didn't have any trouble following the story, even if that meant including what felt like an unbelievably awkward at the time recap of long-past events in the opening mission tape (which reminded me who Esai Morales's character was).
I think the need to follow all the threads of the various MCU films is somewhat exaggerated by the listicle crowd (what would they do without "XX ending explained!" and "what you need to know before seeing YY!" pieces?). Like, if you see a new character in the post-credits scene who you don't recognize, it doesn't undermine the movie for the most part! It just means that people who do will get super-excited, and you at least will hopefully be at least intrigued for the next one. Heck, I only saw GotG 2 to humor a friend; I'd refused to see the first one because I was mad that the talking tree was getting a movie before Natasha; but I could follow vol. 2 okay. Still, it's fair to say that it's become more of a burden.
posted by praemunire at 10:36 AM on August 3, 2023
Reckoning PT I is pretty good about wrapping up its story while setting the hook for the next. Marvel isn't so much that way anymore.
I'm confused; is wrapping up a story the adult thing or the childish thing?
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:45 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm confused; is wrapping up a story the adult thing or the childish thing?
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:45 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
If Endgame is my goal in finishing the MCU, the last time I counted I think I have something like 15 or 16 movies to watch.
I wouldn't argue that anybody should watch all the Marvel movies leading up to Endgame, but it does create something that I don't think has ever been done in cinema and maybe not even in TV either.
By my count, Endgame had 46 characters (forty-six!) who had a big enough part in a previous movie for us to have reason to care about them. Not just a crowd thrown together from a bunch of other media like Ready Player One, but the same actors playing the same characters as part of the same story. So even we only see them for 30 seconds in Endgame, we know who they are, what they care about, and what that expression on their face probably means.
If you spent a decade watching Marvel movies every once in a while, Endame was a pretty amazing payoff and culmination. But it would be pretty ridiculous to tell a newcomer to watch 18 movies in order to experience that.
posted by straight at 12:21 PM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't argue that anybody should watch all the Marvel movies leading up to Endgame, but it does create something that I don't think has ever been done in cinema and maybe not even in TV either.
By my count, Endgame had 46 characters (forty-six!) who had a big enough part in a previous movie for us to have reason to care about them. Not just a crowd thrown together from a bunch of other media like Ready Player One, but the same actors playing the same characters as part of the same story. So even we only see them for 30 seconds in Endgame, we know who they are, what they care about, and what that expression on their face probably means.
If you spent a decade watching Marvel movies every once in a while, Endame was a pretty amazing payoff and culmination. But it would be pretty ridiculous to tell a newcomer to watch 18 movies in order to experience that.
posted by straight at 12:21 PM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
unbelievably awkward at the time recap of long-past events in the opening mission tape (which reminded me who Esai Morales's character was).
Wait, I thought that (Esai Morales's character and his history with Ethan) was manufactured just for Dead Reckoning Part I and that was absolutely not footage from a previous MI film - it was just a generic flashback. Am I wrong?! Off to Google I go...
posted by kbanas at 12:40 PM on August 3, 2023
Wait, I thought that (Esai Morales's character and his history with Ethan) was manufactured just for Dead Reckoning Part I and that was absolutely not footage from a previous MI film - it was just a generic flashback. Am I wrong?! Off to Google I go...
posted by kbanas at 12:40 PM on August 3, 2023
Modern movie criticism: Wait am I wrong? Off to Google I go...
posted by hippybear at 12:44 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 12:44 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
praemunire I saw both halves of Barbenheimer and
a) I don't really agree that Barbie is a non-adult movie. Is it very kid-friendly visually and can you safely take a kid to it, yes, if you're comfortable explaining some necessary stuff to that kid afterwards; will a kid understand the whole movie or get as much out of it as an adult who's been living in the Real World a decade or so, no. I think a lot of people see 'child's toy, bright pink' and write it off.
b) I found Oppenhiemer absolutely devastating, though this could be because I was going in without a huge amount of prior knowledge about Los Alamos, McCarthyism, &c, and it made a solid effort to handwave the physics enough to avoid pulling any scientists in the audience out of suspension with glaring errors and oversimplifications. We're talking, 'please take the next three hours for an existential crisis and then think about it repeatedly for the next several weeks', devastating. I definitely wouldn't call it a 'blah' movie or just another tortured-white-man biopic though sure, on the face of it it is that.
For me a key thing it had to say was 'dear slightly neurodivergent scientist, politics and politicians are fucking dangerous in ways that haven't occurred to you things can be dangerous', which was interesting because, y'know, I understand radiation and how to be safe so it doesn't bother me that much, but in the 40s oh my god. My takeaway from it was less history (I can get that from a book) and less atomic-bomb woo (got enough) and more 'oh holy fuck it's people, the big core horrible thing is people and it always has been'.
posted by ngaiotonga at 1:06 PM on August 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
a) I don't really agree that Barbie is a non-adult movie. Is it very kid-friendly visually and can you safely take a kid to it, yes, if you're comfortable explaining some necessary stuff to that kid afterwards; will a kid understand the whole movie or get as much out of it as an adult who's been living in the Real World a decade or so, no. I think a lot of people see 'child's toy, bright pink' and write it off.
b) I found Oppenhiemer absolutely devastating, though this could be because I was going in without a huge amount of prior knowledge about Los Alamos, McCarthyism, &c, and it made a solid effort to handwave the physics enough to avoid pulling any scientists in the audience out of suspension with glaring errors and oversimplifications. We're talking, 'please take the next three hours for an existential crisis and then think about it repeatedly for the next several weeks', devastating. I definitely wouldn't call it a 'blah' movie or just another tortured-white-man biopic though sure, on the face of it it is that.
For me a key thing it had to say was 'dear slightly neurodivergent scientist, politics and politicians are fucking dangerous in ways that haven't occurred to you things can be dangerous', which was interesting because, y'know, I understand radiation and how to be safe so it doesn't bother me that much, but in the 40s oh my god. My takeaway from it was less history (I can get that from a book) and less atomic-bomb woo (got enough) and more 'oh holy fuck it's people, the big core horrible thing is people and it always has been'.
posted by ngaiotonga at 1:06 PM on August 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
I think if the MCU worse than another franchise really depends upon the franchise..
All these have a degree of being such pure fantasy that they become harmless entertainment largely devoid of deeper meaning or relevance. Crank being a solid example. John Wick brings a legit if mild anti-authoritarian vibe, which adds depth but says little. John Wick & Crank feel harmless to me. Fast & Furious maybe pure fantasy, but it looked so dumb from outside that honestly I've never watched one, so no real opinion there. Kingsman is plays at being pure fantasy, but really brings an overtly fascist vibe, making them harmful. I suppose Mission Impossible brings some fascist vibe too, but not sure how much it matters. I suppose MCU brings fascist vibes similar to Mission Impossible, but much less than Kingsmen.
I separately think super-powered characters provide an occasionally interesting MacGuffin, or a good target for deconstruction, like in The Watchmen or Doom Patrol, but overall super-powers wind up so poorly used that really they become culturally problematic: A super-power typically represents quite literally the body channeling more power towards some goal, which metaphorically jives with how humanity solves problems: Want cheaper stuff? Built it with cheaper labor, and sped fossil fuels transporting it here. Want better AI? Just pump the model through more CPU years. etc. A super-power typically represents modern culture's deeply flawed simplistic view of "more is better".
Anyways..
We could also over dramatize real people's lives, which could promote the great man myth, but the important question is: Do you show the great man asking questions, taking advice, listening, being wrong, etc? Or do you simply show him being great?
posted by jeffburdges at 2:07 PM on August 3, 2023
All these have a degree of being such pure fantasy that they become harmless entertainment largely devoid of deeper meaning or relevance. Crank being a solid example. John Wick brings a legit if mild anti-authoritarian vibe, which adds depth but says little. John Wick & Crank feel harmless to me. Fast & Furious maybe pure fantasy, but it looked so dumb from outside that honestly I've never watched one, so no real opinion there. Kingsman is plays at being pure fantasy, but really brings an overtly fascist vibe, making them harmful. I suppose Mission Impossible brings some fascist vibe too, but not sure how much it matters. I suppose MCU brings fascist vibes similar to Mission Impossible, but much less than Kingsmen.
I separately think super-powered characters provide an occasionally interesting MacGuffin, or a good target for deconstruction, like in The Watchmen or Doom Patrol, but overall super-powers wind up so poorly used that really they become culturally problematic: A super-power typically represents quite literally the body channeling more power towards some goal, which metaphorically jives with how humanity solves problems: Want cheaper stuff? Built it with cheaper labor, and sped fossil fuels transporting it here. Want better AI? Just pump the model through more CPU years. etc. A super-power typically represents modern culture's deeply flawed simplistic view of "more is better".
Anyways..
We could also over dramatize real people's lives, which could promote the great man myth, but the important question is: Do you show the great man asking questions, taking advice, listening, being wrong, etc? Or do you simply show him being great?
posted by jeffburdges at 2:07 PM on August 3, 2023
I'm confused; is wrapping up a story the adult thing or the childish thing?
Wasn't aware I was making an argument in either direction, just that the MI franchise is one where you can drop into an installment and be fine, whereas the MCU right now seems to have a large degree of dependence on being up to date on all the films and TV shows. I personally don't think that makes one or the other more "adult"; over the years I have certainly been highly engaged with and enjoyed media that requires staying up to date. The MCU seems to be doing it on a larger and (and least for me) more exhausting scale and I've stopped trying; part of that is that i dont find the post Endgame content all that compelling.
But people are free to watch and like whatever; this just, like, my opinion, man.
posted by nubs at 2:09 PM on August 3, 2023
Wasn't aware I was making an argument in either direction, just that the MI franchise is one where you can drop into an installment and be fine, whereas the MCU right now seems to have a large degree of dependence on being up to date on all the films and TV shows. I personally don't think that makes one or the other more "adult"; over the years I have certainly been highly engaged with and enjoyed media that requires staying up to date. The MCU seems to be doing it on a larger and (and least for me) more exhausting scale and I've stopped trying; part of that is that i dont find the post Endgame content all that compelling.
But people are free to watch and like whatever; this just, like, my opinion, man.
posted by nubs at 2:09 PM on August 3, 2023
Here in Tucson, it's the depth of summer. Summer here is like winter in, say, Winnipeg; we don't go out much, we spend a lot of time stuck indoors, being in the weather is miserable, everyone's cranky as hell, that sort of thing. If you can, you get out of town. If you can't, you hunker down.
So I'm winding up my Netflix subscription with a couple of binge-watches of the second season of Heartstopper (squee!), and then I'll let that lapse and re-subscribe to Disney Plus, where I'll spend the next month doing nothing but catching up on a year's worth of the MCU.
I know a lot of people criticize it because it's become unapproachable without extensive research, but for me the intricately entwined ongoing plots are a big part of the fun. Seeing characters get introduced, pop back up a couple of times, get their own movie, go back to being background, get another movie... I find that enjoyable. It's a soap opera in Spandex.
I hope it continues, keeps mutating, and gets downright weird. I want more stuff like Moon Knight, that was awesome. But here in the depths of summer, where you can get third degree burns from the sidewalk, I'm glad there's a bunch of stories about characters I know in a familiar universe that I can dig into.
posted by MrVisible at 2:34 PM on August 3, 2023
So I'm winding up my Netflix subscription with a couple of binge-watches of the second season of Heartstopper (squee!), and then I'll let that lapse and re-subscribe to Disney Plus, where I'll spend the next month doing nothing but catching up on a year's worth of the MCU.
I know a lot of people criticize it because it's become unapproachable without extensive research, but for me the intricately entwined ongoing plots are a big part of the fun. Seeing characters get introduced, pop back up a couple of times, get their own movie, go back to being background, get another movie... I find that enjoyable. It's a soap opera in Spandex.
I hope it continues, keeps mutating, and gets downright weird. I want more stuff like Moon Knight, that was awesome. But here in the depths of summer, where you can get third degree burns from the sidewalk, I'm glad there's a bunch of stories about characters I know in a familiar universe that I can dig into.
posted by MrVisible at 2:34 PM on August 3, 2023
lovable animated rescue dogs, "Paw Patrol: The Mighty Movie"
ACAB, and that includes the dogs.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:38 PM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
ACAB, and that includes the dogs.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:38 PM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
less telling a great story than giving you something to pull out and remodel into your own story
Which is a basic trick of the comics medium, that happens on every page, but that doesn't fully transfer to the imposed dreamworld of cinema.
Also, don't feel pressure to watch old MCU movies. These are soap operas. You can tell more about what s going on from faces and musical queues- don't worry if you haven't learned what a tesseract is, or whatever, because it doesn't matter.
There are so many examples from comics of one author namedropping a science macguffin, only to have an author 20 years later pick it up.
I don't think comics fans feel the pressure to watch it all, because we are used to the fact that you will not read every issue of say, Spiderman. There s just too much. The science macguffin is just a plot contrivance
posted by eustatic at 8:33 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Which is a basic trick of the comics medium, that happens on every page, but that doesn't fully transfer to the imposed dreamworld of cinema.
Also, don't feel pressure to watch old MCU movies. These are soap operas. You can tell more about what s going on from faces and musical queues- don't worry if you haven't learned what a tesseract is, or whatever, because it doesn't matter.
There are so many examples from comics of one author namedropping a science macguffin, only to have an author 20 years later pick it up.
I don't think comics fans feel the pressure to watch it all, because we are used to the fact that you will not read every issue of say, Spiderman. There s just too much. The science macguffin is just a plot contrivance
posted by eustatic at 8:33 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wait, I thought that (Esai Morales's character and his history with Ethan) was manufactured just for Dead Reckoning Part I and that was absolutely not footage from a previous MI film - it was just a generic flashback. Am I wrong?! Off to Google I go...
Wait, we are only just now finding out his wife/gf/whatever was murdered and such? Holy cow. It's been so long, and I've seen so many generic action movies since then that I assumed I'd just forgotten!!!
(That actually takes my opinion of the film down a little. Introducing a fridging as a character motivation in the year of our Lord 2023 sucks.)
posted by praemunire at 9:43 PM on August 3, 2023
Wait, we are only just now finding out his wife/gf/whatever was murdered and such? Holy cow. It's been so long, and I've seen so many generic action movies since then that I assumed I'd just forgotten!!!
(That actually takes my opinion of the film down a little. Introducing a fridging as a character motivation in the year of our Lord 2023 sucks.)
posted by praemunire at 9:43 PM on August 3, 2023
I can't bring myself to care about Blade
A remake of the original Marvel movie? The one that paved the way for everything subsequent?
Some people are always trying to ice skate uphill.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:47 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
A remake of the original Marvel movie? The one that paved the way for everything subsequent?
Some people are always trying to ice skate uphill.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:47 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
ACAB, and that includes the dogs.
There’s no rule that says a dog could not invent the nuclear bomb.
posted by Artw at 9:57 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
There’s no rule that says a dog could not invent the nuclear bomb.
posted by Artw at 9:57 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
[Suddenly self-aware cop pup to other pups]: "Do you guys ever think about how the purpose of a system is what it does?"
posted by Phssthpok at 12:51 AM on August 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Phssthpok at 12:51 AM on August 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
People who were 25 when the MCU started are 40 now. I don't feel like the enthusiasm for these films is there with young audiences. The better received superhero shows and films of the last few years have skewed more adult, but I'm not sure the appetite is really there for people nearing AARP qualification age to watch space luchadors in perpetuity, even if they're fucking and swearing. This stuff had a good run.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:10 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:10 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
The main thing that Disney bought Marvel for was their huge stockpile of existing stories and characters that were created as works for hire. Combine this with the likes of LLM-generated scripts and 3D-scanned actors and eventually you get to the point where you can make a movie without paying anyone, or at least not paying anyone points. They're not going to let a silly little thing like "everyone's tired of superhero movies" get in the way of their master plan.
posted by ckape at 5:27 AM on August 4, 2023
posted by ckape at 5:27 AM on August 4, 2023
[Suddenly self-aware cute pup to other pups]: "Do you guys ever think about dying?"
posted by praemunire at 8:01 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 8:01 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure the appetite is really there for people nearing AARP qualification age to watch space luchadors in perpetuity
Well my kids like them.
Even if I concede that point…I’m not a super fan or anything but I see no reason to assume I won’t be watching the kinds of things I watch now in my nursing home. I’m not planning to suddenly get an appetite for only Sex and the City: The Afterlife or something.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:48 AM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well my kids like them.
Even if I concede that point…I’m not a super fan or anything but I see no reason to assume I won’t be watching the kinds of things I watch now in my nursing home. I’m not planning to suddenly get an appetite for only Sex and the City: The Afterlife or something.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:48 AM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I tend to think of Marvel and other action oriented franchises as separate from most film and television I consume. They aren't art in a conventional way but an extruded product - ultra processed to meet the divergent tastes of various people across the globe and to maximise the profits of enormous corporations.
I don't think there is anything wrong in that but it can be exhausting to find anything else to watch. To me the franchise film & serials are like a bag of Doritos. I like Doritos fine - I'll eat them if offered, I might buy a bag if I get a craving, I might even an whole of a bag at one sitting, I'll even eat the flavours (grudgingly) that I don't like. But Doritos aren't a healthful food - they aren't nutritious, you get sick of them, they wear out your palate, you remember you should eat that salad in the fridge your friends told you about. That gets tough when the grocery store only seems to sell Doritos.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:20 PM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think there is anything wrong in that but it can be exhausting to find anything else to watch. To me the franchise film & serials are like a bag of Doritos. I like Doritos fine - I'll eat them if offered, I might buy a bag if I get a craving, I might even an whole of a bag at one sitting, I'll even eat the flavours (grudgingly) that I don't like. But Doritos aren't a healthful food - they aren't nutritious, you get sick of them, they wear out your palate, you remember you should eat that salad in the fridge your friends told you about. That gets tough when the grocery store only seems to sell Doritos.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:20 PM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't really see why the MCU is vastly worse than the "Fast and Furious" or "Mission Impossible" or "John Wick" movies. If anything the MCU at least has a bit more variety in terms of characters.
I say this as someone who has generally quite enjoyed the MCU, but I would say that those other franchises are more idiosyncratic compared to the rather bland, quip-filled thing that the MCU has become.
Also, all three of those franchises have much better action.
posted by brundlefly at 12:30 PM on August 4, 2023
I say this as someone who has generally quite enjoyed the MCU, but I would say that those other franchises are more idiosyncratic compared to the rather bland, quip-filled thing that the MCU has become.
Also, all three of those franchises have much better action.
posted by brundlefly at 12:30 PM on August 4, 2023
But they had fewer sky beams.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:35 PM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:35 PM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
ACAB, and that includes the dogs.
‘Paw Patrol’ Writers Defend Episode Where German Shepherd Cop Shoots Unarmed Black Lab 17 Times In Back
posted by leotrotsky at 2:39 PM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
‘Paw Patrol’ Writers Defend Episode Where German Shepherd Cop Shoots Unarmed Black Lab 17 Times In Back
posted by leotrotsky at 2:39 PM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
more idiosyncratic
I'll certainly give that to John Wick's glorious absurdity, but MI and F&F? ChatGPT could write a F&F script (not sure it didn't write 10's, tbh) and MI is designed to be 100% down the middle-of-the-road like the Roadrunner's path.
Not necessarily this conversation here, but maybe the broader conversation of the article, could do with a little more acknowledging of the fact that most mainstream wide-release movies are not. very. good anyways. I live near a theater and I have one of those passes, so I've ended up seeing a lot of new releases that I might not otherwise have over the past few years (assigned seating was a real blessing for me in picking late-night showings with few to no other moviegoers), and...well. I'm scanning back on my Fanfare posts and seeing a lot of not very good movies reported, especially if you cut out the occasional foreign-language feature that they run. Fast X, Mafia Mamma, Operation Fortune, Ticket to Paradise, Amsterdam, Bullet Train, Minions, DC League of Super-Pets, Uncharted, Snake Eyes, Wrath of Man, Mortal Kombat. That's the just the sub-mediocre non-Marvel (in my opinion, though I have a soft spot for a couple them anyway) ones I happened to be the one to make a post on. Quantumania and Morbius would go in this tier (though Morbius is basically a stand-alone and in theory if it were good could satisfy cravings for idiosyncrasy).
posted by praemunire at 3:37 PM on August 4, 2023
I'll certainly give that to John Wick's glorious absurdity, but MI and F&F? ChatGPT could write a F&F script (not sure it didn't write 10's, tbh) and MI is designed to be 100% down the middle-of-the-road like the Roadrunner's path.
Not necessarily this conversation here, but maybe the broader conversation of the article, could do with a little more acknowledging of the fact that most mainstream wide-release movies are not. very. good anyways. I live near a theater and I have one of those passes, so I've ended up seeing a lot of new releases that I might not otherwise have over the past few years (assigned seating was a real blessing for me in picking late-night showings with few to no other moviegoers), and...well. I'm scanning back on my Fanfare posts and seeing a lot of not very good movies reported, especially if you cut out the occasional foreign-language feature that they run. Fast X, Mafia Mamma, Operation Fortune, Ticket to Paradise, Amsterdam, Bullet Train, Minions, DC League of Super-Pets, Uncharted, Snake Eyes, Wrath of Man, Mortal Kombat. That's the just the sub-mediocre non-Marvel (in my opinion, though I have a soft spot for a couple them anyway) ones I happened to be the one to make a post on. Quantumania and Morbius would go in this tier (though Morbius is basically a stand-alone and in theory if it were good could satisfy cravings for idiosyncrasy).
posted by praemunire at 3:37 PM on August 4, 2023
Wouldn’t it have been great if Marvel stopped making movies after Endgame?
“Yeah, we told the story we wanted to tell. And now we’re done. Maybe we’ll make another story in a decade or so, when we feel we have something worth the effort.”
posted by blue_beetle at 6:53 AM on August 5, 2023
“Yeah, we told the story we wanted to tell. And now we’re done. Maybe we’ll make another story in a decade or so, when we feel we have something worth the effort.”
posted by blue_beetle at 6:53 AM on August 5, 2023
What would be examples of the type of movies y'all would like to be made in the absence of an MCU?
posted by Selena777 at 7:05 AM on August 5, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 7:05 AM on August 5, 2023
What would be examples of the type of movies y'all would like to be made in the absence of an MCU?
A standalone story? A story that's not a remake of a TV show or a video-game tie-in or....?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:20 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
A standalone story? A story that's not a remake of a TV show or a video-game tie-in or....?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:20 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure that if the MCU stopped putting out movies tomorrow we'd suddenly see a resurgence of tense, skillful midbudget thrillers or charming, splashy romcoms, much less gruelling explorations of the human spirit, etc., in the theaters.
On the one hand, the same economic forces that have crushed smaller creators in other artistic fields seem to be operating on a larger scale in the movie industry. That means consolidation in the hands of the spectacle kings.
On the other...with technological changes, the value proposition of going to a theater for the viewer has simply changed. Before my pass, since about maybe 2015 I had been primarily going to see two types of movies in the theater: (1) blockbusters designed to take advantage of a big screen, big speakers, and a hype crowd, at a local multiplex; and (2) classics at art/repertory places. (And I saw a lot more of the latter than your average person!) Otherwise...it's a lot of money to see something when the experience probably wouldn't be that different on even my relatively rudimentary "home theater" setup. Parasite was absolutely worth seeing on a big screen, but Broker? Worthwhile film, but I would not have paid $15 for the difference between the theater and home viewing. And, while I'm not an extreme cinephile, I am someone who actually goes to the art house on a regular basis!
To be honest, I suspect the theater companies would be in even worse trouble at this point without the MCU.
posted by praemunire at 7:37 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, the same economic forces that have crushed smaller creators in other artistic fields seem to be operating on a larger scale in the movie industry. That means consolidation in the hands of the spectacle kings.
On the other...with technological changes, the value proposition of going to a theater for the viewer has simply changed. Before my pass, since about maybe 2015 I had been primarily going to see two types of movies in the theater: (1) blockbusters designed to take advantage of a big screen, big speakers, and a hype crowd, at a local multiplex; and (2) classics at art/repertory places. (And I saw a lot more of the latter than your average person!) Otherwise...it's a lot of money to see something when the experience probably wouldn't be that different on even my relatively rudimentary "home theater" setup. Parasite was absolutely worth seeing on a big screen, but Broker? Worthwhile film, but I would not have paid $15 for the difference between the theater and home viewing. And, while I'm not an extreme cinephile, I am someone who actually goes to the art house on a regular basis!
To be honest, I suspect the theater companies would be in even worse trouble at this point without the MCU.
posted by praemunire at 7:37 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Matt Stoller has a newsletter, BIG, which talks about markets and monopolies. I thought his take on Hollywood was quite interesting: The Slow Death of Hollywood. He talks about how Back to the Future (1985) was successful over a period of several months. It's not like the premise was intuitively sellable and its success could have been predicted in advance.
posted by russilwvong at 11:22 AM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Art is like that, there’s just no formula, and a good artist can make good art in unexpected ways. But it didn’t sell like today’s movies sell, with a $200 million marketing budget and the movie being simultaneously screened on thousands of theaters all over the world, with the opening weekend basically determining the result.He points to market structure, determined by public policy, as a critical factor.
The roll-out of the film was gradual. The movie sold tickets at roughly the same level as its opening weekend for roughly a month. And in fact, theater owners kept demanding Back to the Future from distributors, so much so that two months after it came out in theaters, the movie was shown in more theaters than it was shown in on opening weekend.
In other words, Back to the Future was put into a *market,* where information circulated among buyers and sellers before buyers bought. Critics played a role in supplying this information, as did word of mouth from viewers, who told one another about how exciting and fun the movie really was. Theater owners also exchanged information about what was selling and what wasn’t.
Today, especially in the summertime movie season, this kind of roll-out would be crazy; the first weekend is what matters, and you throw your best stuff on four thousand screens in the U.S. and thousands more abroad, spend enormous amounts on marketing, and hope for the best. There’s much less of a market, and much less information circulating, even though we have the internet and much better mechanisms for moving information to one another.
Both the Paramount Consent Decrees and the Fin-syn rules were designed to break creative industries into a three-tiered structure: production, distribution, and retailing. Producers were prohibited from vertically integrating into the traditional distribution business. That way, there are fewer conflicts of interest in the content business; producers had to create high quality work, and if they didn’t, distributors could choose to sell someone else’s art. Policy removed power as the mechanism of competition, and emphasized art.In a later newsletter he observes that UK television is regulated in this way, with broadcasters required to commission 25% of their shows from independent producers, with the producers keeping the rights to sell them outside the country, and has been quite successful in exporting a number of reality shows.
posted by russilwvong at 11:22 AM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I thought Loki was a fun show
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:20 AM on August 7, 2023
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:20 AM on August 7, 2023
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We need this industry, if it ever gets back on its feet again, to have a solid reboot. A24 is sort of showing the way. Maybe others will pay attention with their own flavors to contribute.
posted by hippybear at 4:04 PM on August 2, 2023 [27 favorites]