Never Remember
September 11, 2023 8:49 AM Subscribe
It's that time of year again. A.R. Moxon reflects, 22 years later, on the World Trade Center attack's enduring legacy of jingoism, tacky commemoratives, and giving liars a pass on their abuses of power. (SLSubstack)
From the piece:
There’s a lawn decoration, I see, in the shape of the Twin Towers, which you can buy at Walmart, in case you think your neighbors might be in danger of forgetting to Never Forget. You can put it on your lawn, and maybe you’ll all remember who your enemies outside your borders are, and if you actually sometimes like to talk as if New York City is an unlivable hellscape full of your enemies inside your borders, maybe you’ll be so busy Never Forget-ing that you’ll forget to remember that you do that, at least until it is time for Halloween lawn decorations.
YES.
I've actually forgiven Osama Bin Laden. I forgave him a few months after the attacks. Whereas some of my own fellow Americans - people who pull shit like this, and politicians who exploit the worst and most terrifying day of my entire damn life - I haven't.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on September 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
There’s a lawn decoration, I see, in the shape of the Twin Towers, which you can buy at Walmart, in case you think your neighbors might be in danger of forgetting to Never Forget. You can put it on your lawn, and maybe you’ll all remember who your enemies outside your borders are, and if you actually sometimes like to talk as if New York City is an unlivable hellscape full of your enemies inside your borders, maybe you’ll be so busy Never Forget-ing that you’ll forget to remember that you do that, at least until it is time for Halloween lawn decorations.
YES.
I've actually forgiven Osama Bin Laden. I forgave him a few months after the attacks. Whereas some of my own fellow Americans - people who pull shit like this, and politicians who exploit the worst and most terrifying day of my entire damn life - I haven't.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on September 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I scanned the top articles on the WaPo website and was heartened to see there was for once no piece commemorating the attacks. I thought maybe I could get through the day without being overly retraumatized after 22 years. But if it's going to be something, this is a good thing.
posted by rikschell at 9:41 AM on September 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 9:41 AM on September 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Good lord, Osama bin Laden? I guess you can't argue with success but I don't have to forgive him. He did kill a lot of people just to stunt, which is morally worse than a Trump flag, although it's hard to remember that because he's dead and your neighbor is not.
posted by kingdead at 9:44 AM on September 11, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 9:44 AM on September 11, 2023 [24 favorites]
Good lord, Osama bin Laden? I guess you can't argue with success but I don't have to forgive him.
I should clarify: I'm using a rather expansive definition of the word "forgive". I don't mean a sort of chuck-him-under-the-chin "aw, it's okay, buddy!" kind of forgiveness in the SLIGHTEST. I wanted him brought before us all to answer for his actions, absolutely.
At the same time, though, I refused to dwell on what he'd done and let that anger control my OWN life - the way that so many other people around me were letting it control theirs. I was going to deliberately close the book on what happened and move on. Away from him, and I would never forget what he'd done (I lived close enough to the Towers that I heard the impact of both planes hit, I WILL NOT EVER forget what happened), but I was not going to let that anger affect me any more.
Because - I do not believe Bin Laden was sane. He was operating under a PROFOUNDLY warped worldview, one which was itself poisoned by hatred. The scale of his actions was MONUMENTAL, but at some level he didn't understand what he was doing, I believe.
Meanwhile, Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul know exactly what they're doing when they say "never forget" one day a year and then repeatedly vote on policies that screw over the First Responders the other 364 days of the year, and the people who post "never forget" images one day a year and then slag off my city as being full of libtard elites the other 364 days also know exactly what they're doing - they are exploiting the worst day of my life to make themselves look good.
FUCK. THAT.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on September 11, 2023 [35 favorites]
I should clarify: I'm using a rather expansive definition of the word "forgive". I don't mean a sort of chuck-him-under-the-chin "aw, it's okay, buddy!" kind of forgiveness in the SLIGHTEST. I wanted him brought before us all to answer for his actions, absolutely.
At the same time, though, I refused to dwell on what he'd done and let that anger control my OWN life - the way that so many other people around me were letting it control theirs. I was going to deliberately close the book on what happened and move on. Away from him, and I would never forget what he'd done (I lived close enough to the Towers that I heard the impact of both planes hit, I WILL NOT EVER forget what happened), but I was not going to let that anger affect me any more.
Because - I do not believe Bin Laden was sane. He was operating under a PROFOUNDLY warped worldview, one which was itself poisoned by hatred. The scale of his actions was MONUMENTAL, but at some level he didn't understand what he was doing, I believe.
Meanwhile, Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul know exactly what they're doing when they say "never forget" one day a year and then repeatedly vote on policies that screw over the First Responders the other 364 days of the year, and the people who post "never forget" images one day a year and then slag off my city as being full of libtard elites the other 364 days also know exactly what they're doing - they are exploiting the worst day of my life to make themselves look good.
FUCK. THAT.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on September 11, 2023 [35 favorites]
"The Other 9/11": Ariel Dorfman on 50th Anniversary of U.S.-Backed Coup in Chile That Ousted Allende (Democracy Now, YouTube/Piped, 25m3s)
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 AM on September 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 AM on September 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
if you actually sometimes like to talk as if New York City is an unlivable hellscape full of your enemies inside your borders
I was living in New York when 9/11 happened.
I remember watching some random episode of the Rachael Ray show $40 a Day in like 2003 or something where she was in Omaha or Nashville or w/e, getting on a bus. The driver asked her where she was visiting from and she said "New York" and the driver laughed and said something like "Welcome to America!"
It made me incandescently angry. At that moment I remember consciously realizing something I only understood subconsciously before: 9/11 only matters as a conservative cudgel.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:27 AM on September 11, 2023 [41 favorites]
I was living in New York when 9/11 happened.
I remember watching some random episode of the Rachael Ray show $40 a Day in like 2003 or something where she was in Omaha or Nashville or w/e, getting on a bus. The driver asked her where she was visiting from and she said "New York" and the driver laughed and said something like "Welcome to America!"
It made me incandescently angry. At that moment I remember consciously realizing something I only understood subconsciously before: 9/11 only matters as a conservative cudgel.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:27 AM on September 11, 2023 [41 favorites]
You do not, under any circumstances have to "hand it to him" but allowing bin Laden to become the sole Big Bad (along with Saddam for some reason) served a lot of people's interests, including America's drug dealer who forces politicians to bend the knee every 4 years or they'll send gas prices skyrocketing. Supporting the rapid transition away from fossil fuels is a great way to Never Forget.
posted by credulous at 10:35 AM on September 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by credulous at 10:35 AM on September 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
To be honest, I’m really tired of being told how to feel about September 11.
posted by Melismata at 10:38 AM on September 11, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 10:38 AM on September 11, 2023 [36 favorites]
Please consider that saying things like ‘doesn’t matter’ or ‘rounding error’ about an incident that killed thousands of people, derailed the next 15 years of history, and traumatized every adult I know who was paying attention is not likely to lead to productive discourse.
posted by bq at 10:41 AM on September 11, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by bq at 10:41 AM on September 11, 2023 [32 favorites]
”I'll Never Forget the way the liars who had the steering wheel on that day bragged that they would create their own reality, and then proved it.”
This is a reference to this quote which is rumored to be from Karl Rove. This was the harbinger of the modern Republican Party. This is where Trump comes from.
posted by bq at 10:45 AM on September 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is a reference to this quote which is rumored to be from Karl Rove. This was the harbinger of the modern Republican Party. This is where Trump comes from.
posted by bq at 10:45 AM on September 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Heywood Mogroot III: COVID killing 1M+ of my fellow Americans put the 9/11 deathtoll in perspective for me – 9/11 was a rounding error on a rounding error on a rounding error of that.
I'll be sure to tell two of my high-school classmates and my second cousin that their deaths were a rounding error oh wait I can't they're dead I saw them immolated live on TV in your rounding error.
posted by tzikeh at 10:55 AM on September 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
I'll be sure to tell two of my high-school classmates and my second cousin that their deaths were a rounding error oh wait I can't they're dead I saw them immolated live on TV in your rounding error.
posted by tzikeh at 10:55 AM on September 11, 2023 [22 favorites]
Less about TFA and more generally about 9/11, I've recently been watching a great deal of raw video from that day and after a while I realized I'd begun having a negative reaction every time a cop was on the screen. And it's because while the other first responders are all, like, trying to help people, the police almost without exception did nothing other than yell at people, ordering them about and scolding them. I'm probably making too much of it, but I can't help but feel it starkly illustrates what's gone wrong with policing.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
At that moment I remember consciously realizing something I only understood subconsciously before: 9/11 only matters as a conservative cudgel.
About 4 days after the attacks I was having a conversation about the aftermath with a guy I was dating at the time; we were talking about how we were getting weirdly uneasy with the outpouring of flags and patriotism signifiers we were seeing, and how we weren't sure whether we were just being paranoid or whether we were right to be concerned. "My big fear," I said at one point, "is that it's gonna be way too easy to go from waving the flag....to waving the flag AT someone."
The next day Dubya was at Ground Zero giving a speech through a bullhorn, less than a month later we were both at a march protesting some bombings in Afghanistan, and we were at other protests against the Iraq War, but the country went to war anyway and...yeah.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:02 AM on September 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
About 4 days after the attacks I was having a conversation about the aftermath with a guy I was dating at the time; we were talking about how we were getting weirdly uneasy with the outpouring of flags and patriotism signifiers we were seeing, and how we weren't sure whether we were just being paranoid or whether we were right to be concerned. "My big fear," I said at one point, "is that it's gonna be way too easy to go from waving the flag....to waving the flag AT someone."
The next day Dubya was at Ground Zero giving a speech through a bullhorn, less than a month later we were both at a march protesting some bombings in Afghanistan, and we were at other protests against the Iraq War, but the country went to war anyway and...yeah.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:02 AM on September 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
And I've said this before and I'll say it again -
Over the years I've come to believe that there are some people who deep down wish that the attacks had been bigger, because it would have killed more of us pesky New Yorkers and shut the rest of us up - and more of the city would have been paved over into a sort of Performative Patriotism Theme Park they could take selfies in front of or whatever, without dealing with us pesky New Yorkers in real life.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:09 AM on September 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
Over the years I've come to believe that there are some people who deep down wish that the attacks had been bigger, because it would have killed more of us pesky New Yorkers and shut the rest of us up - and more of the city would have been paved over into a sort of Performative Patriotism Theme Park they could take selfies in front of or whatever, without dealing with us pesky New Yorkers in real life.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:09 AM on September 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
So... I was there that day (and on MeFi too) and I'm still in New York.
As a result, this piece was particularly painful to read. I prefer to focus on the good things that happened that day:
- How the world comes together in support of those affected by crisis (back then it was us. This weekend, it's Ukraine and Morrocco)
- How we all pulled together (there were early worries about looting that never materialized)
- How we grieved together (and in many cases still do)
So as hard as this piece was to read, I choose to focus on its conclusion:
You can drive comparison to other terrible things. You can be cynical about the state of the world.
or....
You can work on making the world a better place.
Choose the latter.
posted by TNLNYC at 12:04 PM on September 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
As a result, this piece was particularly painful to read. I prefer to focus on the good things that happened that day:
- How the world comes together in support of those affected by crisis (back then it was us. This weekend, it's Ukraine and Morrocco)
- How we all pulled together (there were early worries about looting that never materialized)
- How we grieved together (and in many cases still do)
So as hard as this piece was to read, I choose to focus on its conclusion:
I remember it, those days when there seemed to be no door, just an open frame leading to a brighter day. ....... and that is the part we should all strive for.
... I remember when the door was opened a crack, and I remember the vista beyond, and I think it was real.
Even if it was never real, I think it was a thing that could be; a true thing.
If we are willing to confront abusive power rather than join it, willing to be bravely open rather than fearfully closed, willing to understand that humanity is art rather than a cost, I suspect we could push it back open again.
And that would be something appropriate to Never Forget, if we are to honor this day, or any day.
You can drive comparison to other terrible things. You can be cynical about the state of the world.
or....
You can work on making the world a better place.
Choose the latter.
posted by TNLNYC at 12:04 PM on September 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
I think I’ll Never Forget the ways we never pursued consequences for the country actually involved, which was pretty clearly Saudi Arabia at least on some level, while aggressively and preemptively devastating a country that was not involved—Iraq—for generations.
posted by TedW at 12:15 PM on September 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by TedW at 12:15 PM on September 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, the median age in the US is 38; if it doesn’t change, in 16 years half of us won’t remember because we weren’t born yet.
posted by TedW at 12:18 PM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by TedW at 12:18 PM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Moxon, I feel, is still much better in the shorter context of twitter than long form. There's usually a really great paragraph or two, but otherwise the thread is kind of lost. I would highlight the passages EmpressCallipygos and TNLNYC quoted as the very strong points. In general the framework of Never Forget/Never Remember was a good device, but the former was much stronger than the latter.
It took me a long time to be able to look at images and video from that day or to even really talk about it. Years that I dreaded September 11th rolling around again and having to see it at every turn. Years where the pageantry of the anniversary every year became more rotten, especially as those years also saw so much more death and destruction as a consequence.
Somewhere around 2016 I stopped being unable to view imagery or talk about 9/11 without getting upset and since then most of the Never Forget stuff I see around just seems to be performative, through bumper stickers, and largely from supporters of the police. I have to say I am personally tired of seeing the spotlights in the sky every year, but I know much like remembering World War I, that kind of memorializing will fade over time.
I will certainly never forget that supporting invading Afghanistan was wrong. I will certainly never forget that every crisis is a staging ground for the crises to come. I will never forget that humans can often use our pain to legitimize abhorrent outcomes.
posted by Captaintripps at 12:22 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
It took me a long time to be able to look at images and video from that day or to even really talk about it. Years that I dreaded September 11th rolling around again and having to see it at every turn. Years where the pageantry of the anniversary every year became more rotten, especially as those years also saw so much more death and destruction as a consequence.
Somewhere around 2016 I stopped being unable to view imagery or talk about 9/11 without getting upset and since then most of the Never Forget stuff I see around just seems to be performative, through bumper stickers, and largely from supporters of the police. I have to say I am personally tired of seeing the spotlights in the sky every year, but I know much like remembering World War I, that kind of memorializing will fade over time.
I will certainly never forget that supporting invading Afghanistan was wrong. I will certainly never forget that every crisis is a staging ground for the crises to come. I will never forget that humans can often use our pain to legitimize abhorrent outcomes.
posted by Captaintripps at 12:22 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, the median age in the US is 38; if it doesn’t change, in 16 years half of us won’t remember because we weren’t born yet.Well, I turned 40 yesterday, so I guess I'm officially past middle-age if the median is younger than me...
posted by Xoder at 12:23 PM on September 11, 2023
Also, the median age in the US is 38; if it doesn’t change, in 16 years half of us won’t remember because we weren’t born yet.
Young people do not get 9/11. It is totally abstract to them, or a joke, too outsized for empathy and fit only for bathos. The other day, I saw a post that said, "it's 9/11 eve, don't forget to leave milk and cookies out for George Bush."
And you know what? I don't hate that. I'm not offended by it, not exactly; it certainly doesn't make me angry. I even think it's kinda funny. But I feel ... a lot about it, about how young people didn't know a world without 9/11. Certainly I don't think they need scolding or lecturing about it. In fact, they've faced worse, and they may yet. What we had was hope -- the open door Moxon wrote about. I wish they could have known it.
Instead, they know a world where your beloved family members might not come home due to unspeakable violence -- or might be sickened by some clear and avoidable policy failure -- and politics will come screaming to your door to nail it shut, while waving the flag for causes that can bring no help. Maybe 9/11 would be just another set of memes for them after all.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:47 PM on September 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
Young people do not get 9/11. It is totally abstract to them, or a joke, too outsized for empathy and fit only for bathos. The other day, I saw a post that said, "it's 9/11 eve, don't forget to leave milk and cookies out for George Bush."
And you know what? I don't hate that. I'm not offended by it, not exactly; it certainly doesn't make me angry. I even think it's kinda funny. But I feel ... a lot about it, about how young people didn't know a world without 9/11. Certainly I don't think they need scolding or lecturing about it. In fact, they've faced worse, and they may yet. What we had was hope -- the open door Moxon wrote about. I wish they could have known it.
Instead, they know a world where your beloved family members might not come home due to unspeakable violence -- or might be sickened by some clear and avoidable policy failure -- and politics will come screaming to your door to nail it shut, while waving the flag for causes that can bring no help. Maybe 9/11 would be just another set of memes for them after all.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:47 PM on September 11, 2023 [15 favorites]
Young people do not get 9/11.
Last night the TV was showing a "60 Minutes Special broadcast" all about 9/11. Our youngest, now 15, was in the room. She asked how many people died that day, and then my wife was telling her about the people she knew who were in New York on 9/11.
I found the 2001 footage of the firemen, and contemporary video of survivors, hard to watch. But I left the room when they showed people jumping. (I hung out with my dog at the far end of the house for a while.)
I didn't realize just how incredibly sad it still makes me: the lives lost on Sept. 11, but also the stupid war, the hate, the anger.... What a waste -- and it's not like on September 12 I thought carefully about what the hijackers wanted. They didn't even make a coherent point. The jingoism and slogans are about all that's left, besides a ton of broken people and ruptured families.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:14 PM on September 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Last night the TV was showing a "60 Minutes Special broadcast" all about 9/11. Our youngest, now 15, was in the room. She asked how many people died that day, and then my wife was telling her about the people she knew who were in New York on 9/11.
I found the 2001 footage of the firemen, and contemporary video of survivors, hard to watch. But I left the room when they showed people jumping. (I hung out with my dog at the far end of the house for a while.)
I didn't realize just how incredibly sad it still makes me: the lives lost on Sept. 11, but also the stupid war, the hate, the anger.... What a waste -- and it's not like on September 12 I thought carefully about what the hijackers wanted. They didn't even make a coherent point. The jingoism and slogans are about all that's left, besides a ton of broken people and ruptured families.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:14 PM on September 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Young people do not get 9/11.
This afternoon, 8-year-old and I were biking/walking to the grocery store.
8yo: "Do you know what happened on this day in 2021? No, wait, 2001?"
Me: I watched one world end and knew that I'd see friends die before the new one fully formed. "Yes, I do."
8yo: "A plane flew into the Twin Towers."
Me: "Two planes, yes. One into each one."
8yo: "But they fixed them."
Me: ... "No, they didn't. They both fell down. They put up a building on the site later, though."
8yo: "Oh. Okay."
posted by Etrigan at 2:00 PM on September 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
This afternoon, 8-year-old and I were biking/walking to the grocery store.
8yo: "Do you know what happened on this day in 2021? No, wait, 2001?"
Me: I watched one world end and knew that I'd see friends die before the new one fully formed. "Yes, I do."
8yo: "A plane flew into the Twin Towers."
Me: "Two planes, yes. One into each one."
8yo: "But they fixed them."
Me: ... "No, they didn't. They both fell down. They put up a building on the site later, though."
8yo: "Oh. Okay."
posted by Etrigan at 2:00 PM on September 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
I Sheltered In An Apartment With A Total Stranger On 9/11. Two Weeks Ago, I Finally Found Her.
posted by Etrigan at 2:22 PM on September 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 2:22 PM on September 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
wenestvedt: “I left the room when they showed people jumping. ”They showed that on TV yesterday!? A bunch of people need to lose their jobs.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:30 PM on September 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
To clarify what I said earlier: I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with young people at all in this regard. It’s just generational. I don’t have a visceral response to the assassination of JFK because I wasn’t around, and that’s how it is.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:47 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 3:47 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was in high school, in a small town about 100 miles from New York, and in the days and months after it really felt like every adult had lost their fucking minds. I could almost feel the timeline shifting away from one of eco-futurism to one of fascistic jingoism.
posted by Jon_Evil at 3:49 PM on September 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 3:49 PM on September 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
A number of years after 9/11, the missus and I were due to have our first child. The due date was 9/1 but that day came and went with nary a peep from the new arrival.
On 9/7, we met with the ob-gyn who declared the bun had cooked long enough and it was time for the little one to say hello to the world.
“Yes!” I thought. “Today’s the day!” I am not the patient type and I. Wanted. To. Meet. This. Baby!
“Let’s see what openings I have next week — do you want to induce on the 11th or the 13th?”
Crestfallen, I looked at my wife. Do we saddle the child with the occasional Friday the 13th birthday or one that corresponds with the most traumatic day in recent national memory?
“The 13th,” we said.
Four days later, my wife shook me awake. It was 2am and her water had just broke. We had to go to the hospital. Now! Four and three-quarter hours later, our son was born
His birthday is September 11th, 2007.
Never forget!
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:52 PM on September 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
On 9/7, we met with the ob-gyn who declared the bun had cooked long enough and it was time for the little one to say hello to the world.
“Yes!” I thought. “Today’s the day!” I am not the patient type and I. Wanted. To. Meet. This. Baby!
“Let’s see what openings I have next week — do you want to induce on the 11th or the 13th?”
Crestfallen, I looked at my wife. Do we saddle the child with the occasional Friday the 13th birthday or one that corresponds with the most traumatic day in recent national memory?
“The 13th,” we said.
Four days later, my wife shook me awake. It was 2am and her water had just broke. We had to go to the hospital. Now! Four and three-quarter hours later, our son was born
His birthday is September 11th, 2007.
Never forget!
posted by Big Al 8000 at 3:52 PM on September 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
> Young people do not get 9/11. It is totally abstract to them, or a joke, too outsized for empathy and fit only for bathos.
Yeah, my teenage coworker at the gym this morning pointed out it was Sept 11th, a day I try to ignore or at least not discuss with people who watched it all on TV. I said "you weren't around, huh," and he said that 9/11 means... well, I forget which meme in particular, let's say it was "jet fuel can't melt steel beams." I was a bit taken aback by how it's just another source of humor for him, but didn't say anything. He's a nice guy, and Lord knows I laugh at enough things other people are upset by. Anyway, he'd said it in an "Oh no" way the same way we warn each other that we're out of copier toner or that the elevator is broken -- it's just another "whelp, here's some stuff we gotta deal with while smiling" customer service moment for him, as far as I can tell.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:13 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, my teenage coworker at the gym this morning pointed out it was Sept 11th, a day I try to ignore or at least not discuss with people who watched it all on TV. I said "you weren't around, huh," and he said that 9/11 means... well, I forget which meme in particular, let's say it was "jet fuel can't melt steel beams." I was a bit taken aback by how it's just another source of humor for him, but didn't say anything. He's a nice guy, and Lord knows I laugh at enough things other people are upset by. Anyway, he'd said it in an "Oh no" way the same way we warn each other that we're out of copier toner or that the elevator is broken -- it's just another "whelp, here's some stuff we gotta deal with while smiling" customer service moment for him, as far as I can tell.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:13 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I Sheltered In An Apartment With A Total Stranger On 9/11. Two Weeks Ago, I Finally Found Her.
This reminds me of Sarah from the web site Tomato Nation, and how she spent part of the aftermath with a stranger named Don - whose birthday was 9/11 - and how they eventually got separated, and she spent the next several years trying to find him. She never has.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
This reminds me of Sarah from the web site Tomato Nation, and how she spent part of the aftermath with a stranger named Don - whose birthday was 9/11 - and how they eventually got separated, and she spent the next several years trying to find him. She never has.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 PM on September 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Please consider that saying things like ‘doesn’t matter’ or ‘rounding error’ about an incident that killed thousands of people, derailed the next 15 years of history, and traumatized every adult I know who was paying attention is not likely to lead to productive discourse.
Yeah, it kind of sucks that much of MeFi seems unable to talk about this day and the tragedy that happened on it without sliding instantly into whataboutism -- "What about Iraq? What about Chile? What about Republicans?"
It would be nice, I think, to just take a moment to think about this particular thing that happened to a lot of innocent people. NYC was and is my city, and I have long been weary of people trying to hitch various ideological wagons to that day... whether they're on the right or (like me) on the left.
I guess it just reinforces my sense that, while for New Yorkers, 9/11 was a hometown tragedy (and for many, a personal one), for most of the country, it was a TV show.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:33 PM on September 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
Yeah, it kind of sucks that much of MeFi seems unable to talk about this day and the tragedy that happened on it without sliding instantly into whataboutism -- "What about Iraq? What about Chile? What about Republicans?"
It would be nice, I think, to just take a moment to think about this particular thing that happened to a lot of innocent people. NYC was and is my city, and I have long been weary of people trying to hitch various ideological wagons to that day... whether they're on the right or (like me) on the left.
I guess it just reinforces my sense that, while for New Yorkers, 9/11 was a hometown tragedy (and for many, a personal one), for most of the country, it was a TV show.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:33 PM on September 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
I guess it just reinforces my sense that, while for New Yorkers, 9/11 was a hometown tragedy (and for many, a personal one), for most of the country, it was a TV show.
I made a point for years (decades?) not to discuss 9/11 with anyone who wasn’t in New York that day. It was too raw, too upsetting.
I guess, by discussing it here, I have broken it a bit this year. Maybe that’s a sign that it’s not as much as an open wound as it used to be, idk.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:09 PM on September 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I made a point for years (decades?) not to discuss 9/11 with anyone who wasn’t in New York that day. It was too raw, too upsetting.
I guess, by discussing it here, I have broken it a bit this year. Maybe that’s a sign that it’s not as much as an open wound as it used to be, idk.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:09 PM on September 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I guess it just reinforces my sense that, while for New Yorkers, 9/11 was a hometown tragedy (and for many, a personal one), for most of the country, it was a TV show.
I left a couple of angry comments in the TWOP forums because of exactly this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:28 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I left a couple of angry comments in the TWOP forums because of exactly this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:28 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Last night I watched some footage of people looking at the The World Trade Center after the first plane hit. One person expressed concern that the towers might fall. Some guy next to this person said that they would not collapse. He then said "I know because I am an a architect."
posted by DJZouke at 5:30 AM on September 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 5:30 AM on September 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
... for New Yorkers, 9/11 was a hometown tragedy (and for many, a personal one), for most of the country, it was a TV show.
There are a lot of people in America who don't live in New York, but who nonetheless have strong connections to the city: friends and loved ones may be there, or they lived there in the past, or had a life milestone there. It's a city of America in way that no other place in this country is, since so many people move to it or pass through it, and carry that experience with them for life.
I'll always slag off the New York sense of superiority, but my wife's college roommate lives a block from Ground Zero and my college roommate (and other friends) works in the city and I spent some great times there and had been to the top of the towers in the 1970s -- so when 9/11 happened, it really touched me at a bunch of emotional places simultaneously.
We were talking on Sunday night about trying to reach friends and family that day, when the long-distance lines were clogged, and how it took so long to get word of whether friends were safe: that feeling of unknowing and fear is still fresh for many people outside New York, and our concern in 2001 was genuine.
In other words, the Yankees still suck and your floppy pizza is gross, but I love you guys.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:13 AM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are a lot of people in America who don't live in New York, but who nonetheless have strong connections to the city: friends and loved ones may be there, or they lived there in the past, or had a life milestone there. It's a city of America in way that no other place in this country is, since so many people move to it or pass through it, and carry that experience with them for life.
I'll always slag off the New York sense of superiority, but my wife's college roommate lives a block from Ground Zero and my college roommate (and other friends) works in the city and I spent some great times there and had been to the top of the towers in the 1970s -- so when 9/11 happened, it really touched me at a bunch of emotional places simultaneously.
We were talking on Sunday night about trying to reach friends and family that day, when the long-distance lines were clogged, and how it took so long to get word of whether friends were safe: that feeling of unknowing and fear is still fresh for many people outside New York, and our concern in 2001 was genuine.
In other words, the Yankees still suck and your floppy pizza is gross, but I love you guys.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:13 AM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have started to compose and then erased three different responses to wenestvedt's comment, but I think I will just say that perhaps I was wrong, the wound is still fairly raw in some places, and go take a walk outside.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:31 AM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 6:31 AM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I thought Spencer Ackerman's 9/11 remembrance post was pretty good.
Domestically, U.S. intelligence is demanding Congress reauthorize its constitutional carveout for surveillance at scale known as Section 702, a creation of the War on Terror that represents the National Security Agency reversing its post-Watergate legal restrictions. Last week, Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines met with civil liberties groups to pantomime receptivity to their many criticisms of 702. A coalition of 11 groups in attendance replied by saying they "remain deeply distressed that the intelligence community will not commit to any of the meaningful reforms that are critical to protect Americans’ privacy."posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:01 AM on September 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you think the War on Terror is over, you probably don't have four S's printed on your boarding pass, since the widespread watchlisting after 9/11—from which there is no clear way to remove yourself—persists. A brave Air Force veteran who exposed the mechanics of watchlisting remains in prison.
My personal connection (aside from having lived in NYC in the early 90s) was having a cousin-in-law whom, I found out later, had a meeting in the twin towers that morning, and got out of it (and the WTC) before the first plane hit. Also, a cousin who'd started school at Barnard, dropped out and matriculated at Northwestern, was then going to grad school at NYU. Took a while to get ahold of her, of course.
Afterwards, two things exemplified the different reactions to the event itself (aside from the wars, of course) to me:
- David Bowie covering Simon and Garfunkel's "America" for The Concert for New York City.
- "America We Stand As One" by Dennis Madalone, a professional stuntman known mostly for working on different Star Trek series, which leaves no patriotic cliche unturned.
I also remember when David Letterman went back on the air and took time out to praise Rudolph Giuliani for... for what, exactly? Making a speech? Certainly not because he moved the city's terrorism response center to a building that was right next to one of the city's primary terrorism targets, having already survived a bombing about eight years earlier. I wonder how Letterman feels about his gesture after Giuliani's indictment for trying to subvert democracy.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:10 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Afterwards, two things exemplified the different reactions to the event itself (aside from the wars, of course) to me:
- David Bowie covering Simon and Garfunkel's "America" for The Concert for New York City.
- "America We Stand As One" by Dennis Madalone, a professional stuntman known mostly for working on different Star Trek series, which leaves no patriotic cliche unturned.
I also remember when David Letterman went back on the air and took time out to praise Rudolph Giuliani for... for what, exactly? Making a speech? Certainly not because he moved the city's terrorism response center to a building that was right next to one of the city's primary terrorism targets, having already survived a bombing about eight years earlier. I wonder how Letterman feels about his gesture after Giuliani's indictment for trying to subvert democracy.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:10 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
We were talking on Sunday night about trying to reach friends and family that day, when the long-distance lines were clogged, and how it took so long to get word of whether friends were safe: that feeling of unknowing and fear is still fresh for many people outside New York, and our concern in 2001 was genuine.
We do appreciate that; however, there is still a bit of a disconnect there, unintentional though it may be. You may have cared about New York very much and had personal connections there - but you were still at a remove, because it was something you heard about and saw on TV. And that meant when you had enough, you could turn your TV off.
If you were here, though, turning off the TV wasn't an escape - because it was outside your window. And your other senses all came into play - you heard the sirens running for 36 straight hours immediately after the attacks. You smelled and tasted smoke in the air for months. You felt the grit in the air.
You also saw things the news reports didn't cover. You occasionally saw mundane scraps of fire-charred paper drift down to your feet. You saw a huge shrine pop up in front of each and every single fire station in the city, piles and piles of flowers and teddy bears and yarzeit candles purchased from grocery stores, and you saw them linger for months after. You saw your friends who were massage therapists, who'd been volunteering down at Ground Zero to help the first responders, start to develop huge bags under their eyes because they couldn't sleep themselves either. You saw the missing-person flyers start to go up, covering every single last telephone pole and bulletin board and wall, even though you knew each and every one of them was futile, and you still saw them go up. You also saw and heard the casual Islamophobia start up within days; your Muslim co-worker who'd been sporting a fantastic beard turned up one day having shaved it off. Or you would be passing by the local mosque and a dude on the sidewalk with you would nudge you, point at it and say "so this is where the snake pit is, huh?"
Mind you, I don't point any of that out as any kind of accusation. This was luck of the draw - I was a first-hand witness to what happened, because I live here; you weren't, because you don't. We may both love New York and have personal connections, but my own connection is first-hand and yours is second-hand; and that simply means my own experience is different from yours. And that's just that.
Bearing that in mind is what let me make peace with the fact that for many people this was a TV event. Just like Hurricane Katrina was "just a TV event" for me, but for people like ColdChef, it was likely a first-hand experience. Same too with any other news event worldwide - the kids in the school in Uvalde saw and heard and tasted things I will never understand, simply because I was not there and they were. I try to bear that in mind now about other news events elsewhere in the world, and I try to bear that in mind when people who were not in NYC speak about 9/11; there are different kinds of experiences, and we can't completely know each others' experiences, we can only try to hold space for them.
I also remember when David Letterman went back on the air and took time out to praise Rudolph Giuliani for... for what, exactly? Making a speech? Certainly not because he moved the city's terrorism response center to a building that was right next to one of the city's primary terrorism targets, having already survived a bombing about eight years earlier.
Okay, I hate Giuliani, but I will at least grant him the fact that he was actually kind of good during the immediate crisis. (A damn sight better than Bush, anyway.) He may have done things that exacerbated the problem, but in the moment he didn't flip his shit and he did some actually useful things, and him not flipping his shit was actually a positive contribution.
Mind you, that's more of a stopped-clock-being-right-sometimes kind of thing. Everything he's done before and since sucks rocks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:29 AM on September 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
We do appreciate that; however, there is still a bit of a disconnect there, unintentional though it may be. You may have cared about New York very much and had personal connections there - but you were still at a remove, because it was something you heard about and saw on TV. And that meant when you had enough, you could turn your TV off.
If you were here, though, turning off the TV wasn't an escape - because it was outside your window. And your other senses all came into play - you heard the sirens running for 36 straight hours immediately after the attacks. You smelled and tasted smoke in the air for months. You felt the grit in the air.
You also saw things the news reports didn't cover. You occasionally saw mundane scraps of fire-charred paper drift down to your feet. You saw a huge shrine pop up in front of each and every single fire station in the city, piles and piles of flowers and teddy bears and yarzeit candles purchased from grocery stores, and you saw them linger for months after. You saw your friends who were massage therapists, who'd been volunteering down at Ground Zero to help the first responders, start to develop huge bags under their eyes because they couldn't sleep themselves either. You saw the missing-person flyers start to go up, covering every single last telephone pole and bulletin board and wall, even though you knew each and every one of them was futile, and you still saw them go up. You also saw and heard the casual Islamophobia start up within days; your Muslim co-worker who'd been sporting a fantastic beard turned up one day having shaved it off. Or you would be passing by the local mosque and a dude on the sidewalk with you would nudge you, point at it and say "so this is where the snake pit is, huh?"
Mind you, I don't point any of that out as any kind of accusation. This was luck of the draw - I was a first-hand witness to what happened, because I live here; you weren't, because you don't. We may both love New York and have personal connections, but my own connection is first-hand and yours is second-hand; and that simply means my own experience is different from yours. And that's just that.
Bearing that in mind is what let me make peace with the fact that for many people this was a TV event. Just like Hurricane Katrina was "just a TV event" for me, but for people like ColdChef, it was likely a first-hand experience. Same too with any other news event worldwide - the kids in the school in Uvalde saw and heard and tasted things I will never understand, simply because I was not there and they were. I try to bear that in mind now about other news events elsewhere in the world, and I try to bear that in mind when people who were not in NYC speak about 9/11; there are different kinds of experiences, and we can't completely know each others' experiences, we can only try to hold space for them.
I also remember when David Letterman went back on the air and took time out to praise Rudolph Giuliani for... for what, exactly? Making a speech? Certainly not because he moved the city's terrorism response center to a building that was right next to one of the city's primary terrorism targets, having already survived a bombing about eight years earlier.
Okay, I hate Giuliani, but I will at least grant him the fact that he was actually kind of good during the immediate crisis. (A damn sight better than Bush, anyway.) He may have done things that exacerbated the problem, but in the moment he didn't flip his shit and he did some actually useful things, and him not flipping his shit was actually a positive contribution.
Mind you, that's more of a stopped-clock-being-right-sometimes kind of thing. Everything he's done before and since sucks rocks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:29 AM on September 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
Okay, I hate Giuliani, but I will at least grant him the fact that he was actually kind of good during the immediate crisis.
Which, IIRC, was made much more difficult by Giuliani's insistence of placing NYC's emergency response center at the WTC, so that he could use the apartment there to carry on his affair.
posted by mikelieman at 7:57 AM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Which, IIRC, was made much more difficult by Giuliani's insistence of placing NYC's emergency response center at the WTC, so that he could use the apartment there to carry on his affair.
posted by mikelieman at 7:57 AM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Which, IIRC, was made much more difficult by Giuliani's insistence of placing NYC's emergency response center at the WTC, so that he could use the apartment there to carry on his affair.
Which is part of the "everything he's done before and since sucks rocks" part of my statement. When Giuliani was on Letterman that was not common knowledge however.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:49 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which is part of the "everything he's done before and since sucks rocks" part of my statement. When Giuliani was on Letterman that was not common knowledge however.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:49 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I remember the only solace on the day was communing on MetaFilter.
And I remember rebeccablood's comment:
And I remember rebeccablood's comment:
my greatest fear is how our government is going to respond. more erosion of freedom in the name of security. mark my words.posted by kirkaracha at 11:45 AM on September 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
You saw the missing-person flyers start to go up, covering every single last telephone pole and bulletin board and wall, even though you knew each and every one of them was futile, and you still saw them go up.
This is a major part of it for me that you simply can't understand unless you witnessed it first hand. [I was 25, working in midtown, saw the whole thing out the window, had to walk 50 blocks to shelter in a friend's apartment until I could get back to Brooklyn, etc.]
The missing-person flyers were everywhere. There were thousands of them. Homemade pictures of loved ones, pasted in every subway station. They were a constant reminder for months afterwards.
Another strong memory is going to donate blood - my friends and I tried to donate blood that afternoon but were turned away, and my wife and I successfully donated blood a couple days later. The immediate idea was that there would be lots of injured survivors that would need blood, and the realization slowly came over a couple days that there were no survivors in that rubble. You got out or you didn't.
And every New Yorker was jumpy for a long time. The anthrax stuff happened shortly after. A plane crashed in Rockaway Beach in October or November and we all thought "it's happening again."
I respect that there were people outside of NYC or DC that were genuinely and sincerely concerned, but the reality is that it is simply impossible to truly understand what it was like to witness it firsthand.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:39 PM on September 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is a major part of it for me that you simply can't understand unless you witnessed it first hand. [I was 25, working in midtown, saw the whole thing out the window, had to walk 50 blocks to shelter in a friend's apartment until I could get back to Brooklyn, etc.]
The missing-person flyers were everywhere. There were thousands of them. Homemade pictures of loved ones, pasted in every subway station. They were a constant reminder for months afterwards.
Another strong memory is going to donate blood - my friends and I tried to donate blood that afternoon but were turned away, and my wife and I successfully donated blood a couple days later. The immediate idea was that there would be lots of injured survivors that would need blood, and the realization slowly came over a couple days that there were no survivors in that rubble. You got out or you didn't.
And every New Yorker was jumpy for a long time. The anthrax stuff happened shortly after. A plane crashed in Rockaway Beach in October or November and we all thought "it's happening again."
I respect that there were people outside of NYC or DC that were genuinely and sincerely concerned, but the reality is that it is simply impossible to truly understand what it was like to witness it firsthand.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:39 PM on September 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
> Okay, I hate Giuliani, but I will at least grant him the fact that he was actually kind of good during the immediate crisis.
Same and same. I remember feeling relief when I saw him on TV -- relief! actually happy to see that jerk! -- because he was the first authority figure I saw, and I really needed to know someone was in charge.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:54 PM on September 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Same and same. I remember feeling relief when I saw him on TV -- relief! actually happy to see that jerk! -- because he was the first authority figure I saw, and I really needed to know someone was in charge.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:54 PM on September 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The missing-person flyers were everywhere. There were thousands of them. Homemade pictures of loved ones, pasted in every subway station. They were a constant reminder for months afterwards.
Just before the 9/11 Museum opened downtown, the NYT ran an article with a walkthrough, and someone posted it here; one of the pictures was a recreated wall covered with those flyers. Just seeing that photo gave me such a strong sense of PTSD I realized I would never be able to visit the musuem.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:34 PM on September 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just before the 9/11 Museum opened downtown, the NYT ran an article with a walkthrough, and someone posted it here; one of the pictures was a recreated wall covered with those flyers. Just seeing that photo gave me such a strong sense of PTSD I realized I would never be able to visit the musuem.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:34 PM on September 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
While working for the NY State Department of Social Services in the 1980's, I was in the south tower on a number of occasions. I can not remember the exact floor but I believe it was 80 something. One had to change elevators at one point to travel to the higher floors. I recall looking out of the very small windows overlooking the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. The height made me more than a little dizzy. I recall thinking of my father and his sister arriving there in the early 1920's. My mother's mother and father arrived around the same time.
posted by DJZouke at 2:41 PM on September 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 2:41 PM on September 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
...Sharing some cultural responses that helped me greatly in the days after:
* Sometime after the attacks, maybe 2 or 3 days later, Scott Simon read Auden's poem September 1, 1939 on the air on NPR in its entirety. I don't remember if he made any other comment or explanation as to why he was doing it, or introduced it in any way; I simply remember him reading it, and then when he was done, immediately getting online to look it up. I brought it to the theater company where I worked a week later, where our artistic director had organized a gathering for us all to commiserate; somehow it slipped my mind until we were cleaning up, and I gave it to him to read just for his own sake. ...And then I hugged him when he broke down afterward.
* About 3 years after the attacks, at the Fringe Festival that year, I saw a play called WTC VIEW; it was based on the playwright's actual experiences. The night before the attack he'd placed a "roommate wanted" ad in the Village Voice online, and was surprised to see that a couple days later, people were still responding. He quickly figured out that some people were responding only because he'd said he had a view of the Towers, and they wanted a look. This play captured the post-attack weirdness in the city EXACTLY right; there was some dark humor that made me laugh hard enough to nearly fall out of my seat, and there were some hit-you-hard, SUPER-specific moments that made me wince. It got turned into an Indie film a few years later with the original cast (including Michael Urie in the lead).
(The dark humor - there's a recurring thing about the lead's best friend trying to get him to quit smoking, and in one scene she walks in and sees him lighting up. He just points out the window and says "okay, look - if THEY'RE still smoking, I'M still gonna smoke, okay?")
* I wrote this on the 10-year anniversary, and reposted it now and then ever since. It's still pretty much all I need to say about the attacks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:45 PM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
* Sometime after the attacks, maybe 2 or 3 days later, Scott Simon read Auden's poem September 1, 1939 on the air on NPR in its entirety. I don't remember if he made any other comment or explanation as to why he was doing it, or introduced it in any way; I simply remember him reading it, and then when he was done, immediately getting online to look it up. I brought it to the theater company where I worked a week later, where our artistic director had organized a gathering for us all to commiserate; somehow it slipped my mind until we were cleaning up, and I gave it to him to read just for his own sake. ...And then I hugged him when he broke down afterward.
* About 3 years after the attacks, at the Fringe Festival that year, I saw a play called WTC VIEW; it was based on the playwright's actual experiences. The night before the attack he'd placed a "roommate wanted" ad in the Village Voice online, and was surprised to see that a couple days later, people were still responding. He quickly figured out that some people were responding only because he'd said he had a view of the Towers, and they wanted a look. This play captured the post-attack weirdness in the city EXACTLY right; there was some dark humor that made me laugh hard enough to nearly fall out of my seat, and there were some hit-you-hard, SUPER-specific moments that made me wince. It got turned into an Indie film a few years later with the original cast (including Michael Urie in the lead).
(The dark humor - there's a recurring thing about the lead's best friend trying to get him to quit smoking, and in one scene she walks in and sees him lighting up. He just points out the window and says "okay, look - if THEY'RE still smoking, I'M still gonna smoke, okay?")
* I wrote this on the 10-year anniversary, and reposted it now and then ever since. It's still pretty much all I need to say about the attacks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:45 PM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Just before the 9/11 Museum opened downtown, the NYT ran an article with a walkthrough, and someone posted it here; one of the pictures was a recreated wall covered with those flyers. Just seeing that photo gave me such a strong sense of PTSD I realized I would never be able to visit the musuem.
This is sort of tangential, but I remember finally visiting it in like 2017 and thinking to myself “anyone that can prove they worked or lived in the five boroughs on 9/11 should get free lifetime access to this place”.
I still can’t believe they charge us for it.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:05 PM on September 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is sort of tangential, but I remember finally visiting it in like 2017 and thinking to myself “anyone that can prove they worked or lived in the five boroughs on 9/11 should get free lifetime access to this place”.
I still can’t believe they charge us for it.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:05 PM on September 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
We may both love New York and have personal connections, but my own connection is first-hand and yours is second-hand; and that simply means my own experience is different from yours. And that's just that
I 100% agree, and wouldn't ever suggest that a witness's experience is the same as a victim's.
I think I hear what you're saying, that my physical distance up here in New England meant that we had respite when it became too much, while you all lived in it for a year or two (or twenty-two) with no way to get out. It's a qualitative and a quantitative difference, and "not being there" is a gulf that can't be bridged.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:16 PM on September 12, 2023
I 100% agree, and wouldn't ever suggest that a witness's experience is the same as a victim's.
I think I hear what you're saying, that my physical distance up here in New England meant that we had respite when it became too much, while you all lived in it for a year or two (or twenty-two) with no way to get out. It's a qualitative and a quantitative difference, and "not being there" is a gulf that can't be bridged.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:16 PM on September 12, 2023
I can’t recall if I’ve posted this previously and it’s too early for me to search my history, but this is a beautifully written piece.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:05 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:05 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think I hear what you're saying, that my physical distance up here in New England meant that we had respite when it became too much, while you all lived in it for a year or two (or twenty-two) with no way to get out. It's a qualitative and a quantitative difference, and "not being there" is a gulf that can't be bridged.
Yeah, that's exactly it; and I emphasize that this is absolutely not anything I hold against anyone, nor do I claim any preferential treatment because of that - above and beyond the awareness that my own experience being different may mean that some things others say about the event are going to land different on me, and I may act a little funny as a result, and to please be patient with me when I do.
But I may also not act funny anyway, because I've found that my own reminding myself of that has given me more patience with people who weren't here - I'm able to remind myself that "yeah, so this was just a TV thing for them" and I am much better able to brush that off. There's still the chance that I'd give a dirty look to influencers posing for selfies in front of the 9/11 Memorial Wall if I saw them, and I will NEVER stop holding Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell accountable for dragging their feet on the Zadroga Act, but I'm way less fussed about things today than I used to be. And it's also made me a lot more sensitive to people elsewhere in the country who are facing their own local tragedies; I visited New Orleans shortly after Katrina, and I was way less likely to say the kind of dumb shit people said to me shortly after 9/11, because I knew how much that chapped my ass when the wounds were fresh. (I may have occasionally said dumb shit still, but it was less likely.)
And - even time heals. I think it was on the 5th Anniversary that I was watching the memorial ceremony, and I had a weirdly comforting image - I was watching a Junior High School choir take their places on the stage to sing "God Bless America" or something, and I suddenly imagined another anniversary many years later, with another Junior High School choir taking their place to do the same thing - and two of the kids were trying to smother giggles because one of them had just said something silly. And - that hit me that some time in the future, there would be kids for whom this was not an open raw wound, this would just be Some Thing That Happened. The way that World War II was Just Some Thing That Happened for me, when my own school choir went to sing at some event there. We were dumb kids who didn't have a connection to it, we vaguely knew it was important and we should be serious but we were still kids, and who wouldn't laugh at what Paul just said, snicker giggle.
There are going to be kids who feel that way about 9/11 someday, and I found that extremely comforting and life-affirming.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:49 AM on September 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yeah, that's exactly it; and I emphasize that this is absolutely not anything I hold against anyone, nor do I claim any preferential treatment because of that - above and beyond the awareness that my own experience being different may mean that some things others say about the event are going to land different on me, and I may act a little funny as a result, and to please be patient with me when I do.
But I may also not act funny anyway, because I've found that my own reminding myself of that has given me more patience with people who weren't here - I'm able to remind myself that "yeah, so this was just a TV thing for them" and I am much better able to brush that off. There's still the chance that I'd give a dirty look to influencers posing for selfies in front of the 9/11 Memorial Wall if I saw them, and I will NEVER stop holding Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell accountable for dragging their feet on the Zadroga Act, but I'm way less fussed about things today than I used to be. And it's also made me a lot more sensitive to people elsewhere in the country who are facing their own local tragedies; I visited New Orleans shortly after Katrina, and I was way less likely to say the kind of dumb shit people said to me shortly after 9/11, because I knew how much that chapped my ass when the wounds were fresh. (I may have occasionally said dumb shit still, but it was less likely.)
And - even time heals. I think it was on the 5th Anniversary that I was watching the memorial ceremony, and I had a weirdly comforting image - I was watching a Junior High School choir take their places on the stage to sing "God Bless America" or something, and I suddenly imagined another anniversary many years later, with another Junior High School choir taking their place to do the same thing - and two of the kids were trying to smother giggles because one of them had just said something silly. And - that hit me that some time in the future, there would be kids for whom this was not an open raw wound, this would just be Some Thing That Happened. The way that World War II was Just Some Thing That Happened for me, when my own school choir went to sing at some event there. We were dumb kids who didn't have a connection to it, we vaguely knew it was important and we should be serious but we were still kids, and who wouldn't laugh at what Paul just said, snicker giggle.
There are going to be kids who feel that way about 9/11 someday, and I found that extremely comforting and life-affirming.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:49 AM on September 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yeah, my own son was born in Brooklyn less than a year after, and I don’t think he has any conception of how much it traumatized his parents because we simply can’t talk about it. It’s like the war veteran fathers who never speak of what they saw. I know it’s weird and distancing but I just can’t. A friend of mine wrote a middle grade chapter book about it to educate a generation of kids born long afterward, but it’s a brutal read.
posted by rikschell at 8:19 AM on September 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:19 AM on September 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
EmpressC: ...some time in the future, there would be kids for whom this was not an open raw wound, this would just be Some Thing That Happened.
I often do the mental math for distance-in-time from various events to the present, and it jars me really often. Like, I was born about thirty years after WWII ended, while 30 years ago now was...my own college graduation. *boggle* Twenty-two years before I was born was 1950, which felt like Ancient History when I was a kid. Lots of things that felt "recent" to me as a kid are now half a century in the past!
So yeah, the transition from "Wait, I remember when that happened!" to my kids saying "my history teacher mentioned it..." happens quickly -- and feels really generationally-defining.
Does that ease the pain to the people who were there? No, of course not. But the ones who come after us are spared much of that.
While that "60 Minutes" episode aired, I left the room with tears in my eyes three times before I gave up and went to pet the dog. So I would never blame you for doing what you need to do. Hugs to you, MeFite.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:43 AM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I often do the mental math for distance-in-time from various events to the present, and it jars me really often. Like, I was born about thirty years after WWII ended, while 30 years ago now was...my own college graduation. *boggle* Twenty-two years before I was born was 1950, which felt like Ancient History when I was a kid. Lots of things that felt "recent" to me as a kid are now half a century in the past!
So yeah, the transition from "Wait, I remember when that happened!" to my kids saying "my history teacher mentioned it..." happens quickly -- and feels really generationally-defining.
Does that ease the pain to the people who were there? No, of course not. But the ones who come after us are spared much of that.
While that "60 Minutes" episode aired, I left the room with tears in my eyes three times before I gave up and went to pet the dog. So I would never blame you for doing what you need to do. Hugs to you, MeFite.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:43 AM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
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aside from the death and destruction Bush's GWOT inflicted on the mideast, and damage to our own service people,
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=18JMR
shows how the defense budget ballooned 50% on a per-capita basis during the Boosh years.
That $1600/yr per adult could have been a peace dividend, instead it was flushed away on a neocon job
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:14 AM on September 11, 2023 [20 favorites]