New York City Is Not Built for This

September 29, 2023 10:16 PM

The city is seeing rainfall patterns that look more like Miami’s or even Singapore’s The city flooded last December, last April, and last July—an unusual seasonal span.
posted by folklore724 (41 comments total)

It’s just ponding…. 🇸🇬🇸🇬🇸🇬
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:20 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

@dorothisunderwood Iknowrite?

That sounds scary. I remenber there were videos of the subway flooding. And still there were people trying to use it.

Infrastructure will need to be redesigned for new climate.
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 10:49 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Infrastructure will need to be redesigned for the new climate, yes, but infrastructure should be designed for climate that's going to be worse than the new climate.
posted by Flunkie at 11:49 PM on September 29, 2023 [10 favorites]

New York infrastructure has been put off for 40 years. The train tunnels, in particular, have just continued to deteriorate...it will be interesting when that can can't be kicked down the road any more.
posted by Chuffy at 12:08 AM on September 30, 2023

Atlantic flooding, ungated
posted by chavenet at 4:42 AM on September 30, 2023 [6 favorites]

My roommate and I live in a ground-floor duplex, with the "bottom floor" technically in the basement. Instead of taking one of the two first-floor bedrooms, my roommate took over the entire basement level as his space. There's a door in his space leading to a small vestibule, with access to the building's back yard.

His space has flooded twice; yesterday was the most recent time. Fortunately he doesn't use the door, and has a bookshelf and a rug pushed up against that door; the rug soaked up most of the water in both cases. Last time all he had to do was wash some clothes that were on the floor and also got wet, throw out a couple boxes of "I need to go through those papers and throw most of them out" papers, and get rid of the rug. This time the rug is a loss again, and maybe a couple shirts need to be washed.

This time the super was a lot more responsive when we called. Last time it took him a couple hours to come by and ascertain why his space was flooding; we discovered that the vestibule door was open, and the water had all just been pouring in. The super locked that door and had strong words with the neighbor who had adjoining access to the vestibule. We've been checking that door periodically since - and I'd just checked it a couple days ago and it was closed, but there was still a flood. THIS time we think that it was just because of the rain - the back yard is paved cement with a big sewer drain dead-center, and I noticed that the drain had clogged up and there was a nearly ankle-deep puddle back there. The super unclogged that first thing and it started to drain - my roommate said he noticed an immediate difference. The super also noticed some issues with the door frame for the vestibule and said he'll be calling a contractor for a look.

As for me - I'd signed up for a job fair on Friday that I'd been reluctant to attend (I noticed it was mostly hospitality or event planning jobs, nothing really for EA work), and my job coach had been leaning on me to attend anyway. But when this happened, and all the subways had been shut down, I decided this was an Act Of God and stayed home and I have no guilt.

We've been dry since. And my roommate also got a sweet gesture from his co-workers - he was grumbling about the situation on his work Slack channel and his co-workers all started a pool to buy him a new rug.

We both realize, too, that we got off REALLY easy.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:57 AM on September 30, 2023 [23 favorites]

I realized yesterday that it was around two years ago, after Hurricane Ida, that we had those floods *filling the Vine Street Expressway* in Philly like it was a storage tank. There's an NPR article from last year exploring the reasons. Apparently it was a pumping station failure, though that may only have been one factor. Philly isn't ready for these events either.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 5:40 AM on September 30, 2023

New York infrastructure has been put off for 40 years. The train tunnels, in particular, have just continued to deteriorate

Fun fact... if the subways stopped running their pumps, they'd flood within a week just from ground water seep. Hard to prevent flooding from torrential rains under those circumstances.

It would definitely help if the federal and state governments supported NYC transit more.
posted by kokaku at 6:03 AM on September 30, 2023 [10 favorites]

Unfortunately we have a bogus administration in place, which constantly promises initiatives and changes to the law that amount to nothing. In his time in office, Eric Adams has promised a crackdown on illegal dirt bikes on city streets, a crackdown on fraudulent paper license plates, a crackdown on vehicle registration fraud, an initiative to deal with basic quality of life issues like amplified noise late at night in residential areas, and many others. None of them have amounted to anything - he just makes announcements, and then the city government stretches, yawns, and goes about its prior business.

I am sure that Adams will announce some major rehabilitation and renovation to the pumping equipment in subway lines. Our own local station was flooded yesterday, along with many other lines running through Brooklyn. Based on his prior meaningless promises, nothing will be done. Sweetheart contracts to analyze the problem will be given to Adams' personal associates, and not one brick will be placed on top of another. And then if he's criticized Adams will complain that he's not being given his due credit. Credit for what? He never says.
posted by 1adam12 at 7:15 AM on September 30, 2023 [9 favorites]

Who was the last effective Mayor of NY?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:31 AM on September 30, 2023

Maybe you can use cops as sandbags, as they are the only thing that is funded?
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on September 30, 2023 [19 favorites]

I-Write-Essays, it was Bloomberg.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:45 AM on September 30, 2023 [3 favorites]

Bloomberg in some ways... partly because he wasn't as beholden to all the competing interests. But he wasn't really about helping the poor and definitely favored the cops as a solution to a lot of problems.

Before him... Koch (78-89... presiding over a city in difficulties)? Lindsay (66-73... walking the streets of Harlem and meeting people's emotions while other US cities erupted)?
posted by kokaku at 8:04 AM on September 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

I had been planning on going into the office, but as I was getting ready to leave it was raining so hard I could barely see out my window, so I decided against it. I live across from the Brooklyn Navy Yard and have been a little anxious about flooding ever since moving here, but until yesterday I never so much as saw puddles forming in the parking lots when it rained. Our building was built post-Sandy so all the electrical equipment is on the roof instead of the basement. Yesterday Flushing Ave (the street that runs along the Navy Yard) was about a foot deep in water, apparently a combination of clogged drains and too much water at once. The water was gone by 11am, but the coffee shop downstairs was flooded.

Eric Adams is a tool of the police department, and everyone is getting angry that services are being cut and nothing is really getting done to make the city more liveable, but as soon as election season comes around everyone is going to start talking about crime or immigrants and how they don't feel safe, he'll get elected again and crime and immigration will somehow mysteriously no longer be problems.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:33 AM on September 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

New York: if you can lake it here, you can lake it anywhere.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:04 AM on September 30, 2023 [8 favorites]

What's most infuriating about it to me is that after Ida, there were plenty of suggestions of what could be done to lower the risk of this kind of flooding - but none of it can be allowed to happen. We can't build bioswales because it would make it slightly less easy to park for free!
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 9:10 AM on September 30, 2023 [7 favorites]

Based on the screaming over scarce bus seats I saw yesterday, as the buses were the only way to get from Manhattan to Brooklyn, it won’t be long before infrastructure issues and climate change become policing issues.
posted by Ishbadiddle at 9:46 AM on September 30, 2023 [4 favorites]

When I lived in Jersey City in the early 2000s, it amazed me that there was so much underground stuff so close to the ocean in the metro area. I grew up in Houston. We're 50 miles from the ocean there and there are some underground tunnels and basements downtown (which flood during tropical storms and hurricanes and did even when I was young in the 1970s and 1980s) but mostly it's not considered safe to build basements. A major "local" form of house design 100 years ago was pier-and-beam with houses 18+ inches off the ground to accommodate heavy rains and flooding.

I assume some of the underground infrastructure in both NYC and Houston has to do with the skyscrapers. While that's necessary to put up heavy buildings, the subway is not. It took me a long time to stop having a moment of "and this is how far from the rivers and the ocean?" every time I got into a subway car, especially the PATH going from Jersey City under the Hudson to Manhattan.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:50 AM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

This time the rug is a loss again, and maybe a couple shirts need to be washed.

That rug really dried the room together.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:58 AM on September 30, 2023 [24 favorites]

Before him... Koch (78-89... presiding over a city in difficulties)? Lindsay (66-73... walking the streets of Harlem and meeting people's emotions while other US cities erupted)?

David Dinkins was a pretty good mayor who was outright sabotaged by racist cops.
posted by mightygodking at 10:20 AM on September 30, 2023 [7 favorites]

Yesterday Flushing Ave (the street that runs along the Navy Yard) was about a foot deep in water, apparently a combination of clogged drains and too much water at once. The water was gone by 11am, but the coffee shop downstairs was flooded.

....I work in the Navy Yard and live close enough to walk there (and up a hill). I am SO, SO glad that I was not scheduled to work yesterday. (And I probably pass right by your building on my walk to work.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:56 AM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

Abstractly, these flood should be viewed positively, since thy provide a comprehensible warning of near term climate change. I do realize NYC has these floods multiple times per year now, with little indication that they'll fix anything, but they really could fix rain drainage in NYC fairly quickly.

It's so much worse when people wind up really surprised though: "The mayor of Derna, Abdulmenam Al-Ghaithi, told al-Arabiya that the final death toll in the city could range from 18,000 to 20,000, equivalent to a fifth of the city's population."

As for individuals, you could always put deflating SUV tires into your weekly routine.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:40 AM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

Houston and and NY/NJ have very different geology and very different associated flood risks.
Houston is built on thousands of feet of water saturated clay - those downtown skyscrapers have foundations that go down almost as far as the towers go up - they're effectively floating.
NY City is built on some of the hardest rock you can imagine.
Underground structures in Houston will flood from all directions, NY underground floods from above - it should be far easier to avoid that flooding in NY.
(Fun fact - in the very unlikely event of a moderately severe earthquake in Houston the clay would liquefy and those skyscrapers would sink like daggers dropped into water)
posted by thatwhichfalls at 11:44 AM on September 30, 2023 [10 favorites]

Underground structures in Houston will flood from all directions, NY underground floods from above - it should be far easier to avoid that flooding in NY.

I could be totally wrong, but my understanding was that Central Texas is so prone to flooding because there's just not that much dirt before you hit rock (though less extreme than Manhattan, at least), so I'm not sure the geology ia that much of an advantage. You comment has made be realize, though, that since moving from Central Texas to NYC, rain is not fraught in the same way, though that's obviously changing rapidly.
posted by hoyland at 11:54 AM on September 30, 2023

Central Texas is so prone to flooding because there's just not that much dirt before you hit rock

Austin, yes. Houston no. It's clay/silt/sand down to the salt layers in Houston.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 12:05 PM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

I am sure that Adams will announce some major rehabilitation and renovation to the pumping equipment in subway lines.

He won’t because the MTA is controlled by the governor. So while I can blame Adams for a lot, I can’t particularly blame him for subway infrastructure. For this, I feel comfortable blaming Cuomo, Andrew.
posted by Captaintripps at 12:07 PM on September 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

Every time the damn city floods — which is not seldom — everyone strokes their chins and says “Gosh, the city just isn’t built for this.” Well, yeah — city is not built for this in large part because our elected officials, including and especially our current fucking idiot of a mayor, have been too busy funding things like overtime for the NYPD and robot police officers instead of using the funding on desperately needed infrastructure.

Adams isn’t interested in governing the city. He’s interested in photos ops and cronyism, period.
posted by holborne at 12:10 PM on September 30, 2023 [6 favorites]

Houston and and NY/NJ have very different geology and very different associated flood risks.

And different climates; Houston doesn't need to worry about keeping footers under the frost line.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:31 PM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

Adams isn’t interested in governing the city. He’s interested in photos ops and cronyism, period.

I remember hearing a caller on NPR approvingly say something like "I've already seen him in person five times! I don't remember seeing any other mayor in person ever!"

I tried to yell through my radio WHO THE FUCK CARES IF YOU SEE HIM IN PERSON, but I don't think it worked.
posted by Flunkie at 2:12 PM on September 30, 2023 [4 favorites]

And different climates; Houston doesn't need to worry about keeping footers under the frost line.

I'm being facetious, but now that NYC has been reclassified as a humid subtropical climate zone thanks to anthropogenic global warming, maybe the frost line isn't our biggest concern either.
posted by theory at 2:59 PM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

. I grew up in Houston. We're 50 miles from the ocean there and there are some underground tunnels and basements downtown (which flood during tropical storms and hurricanes and did even when I was young in the 1970s and 1980s) but mostly it's not considered safe to build basements.

Houston doesn't have basements because the land value is low, so it's cheaper to spread left and right than to go downwards. That's the only reason. Most newer buildings that are decently sized in the south have below ground parking. And downtown Houston is covered with underground tunnels because they thought walking in the sun and heat in the 1970s was a bad idea. Also why downtown Houston sucks so hard and has so much parking and so little street life.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:00 PM on September 30, 2023

Houston doesn't have basements because the land value is low

It doesn't need basements because it doesn't freeze and where it does the frost line is less than 6 inches deep. If you didn't have a basement in top half of the US your house would get thrown around by frost heave. Basements aren't about space or land value, they literally anchor the houses into the ground.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:09 PM on September 30, 2023 [10 favorites]

In oklahoma, I was taught the reason for no basements is tornados.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 3:27 PM on September 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

In oklahoma, I was taught the reason for no basements is tornados.

The frost line in Oklahoma is only 18 inches and the soil is clay. It's probably the worst combination to try and put a basement in along with a depth that's not really conducive to turning it into a basement. Nevertheless, it's still code in OK to pour foundations down to that frost line. Here in Greater Boston the frost line is 4-6 feet. At that point you might as well make the foundation pour a basement.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:39 PM on September 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

Austin, yes. Houston no. It's clay/silt/sand down to the salt layers in Houston.

That was my point--you could have drawn the same contrast between Houston and Central Texas, which seems to flood if it so much as thinks about raining. I was baffled when I discovered that "I better leave now, else I'm not going to be able to get home" was just a normal summer day in San Antonio.

In oklahoma, I was taught the reason for no basements is tornados.

It would be interesting to know what the logic is, because other parts of the country that get tornadoes definitely do have basements. Even more disconcerting than my first tornado warning without a basement in Texas were the tornado warnings in NYC at the start of the pandemic. There was no play-by-play of the storm on the radio. How were you meant to know when to go to the basement?
posted by hoyland at 4:06 PM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

I'm really enjoying hearing you all talk about frost lines, soil makeup, etc. Lots of concepts I'd never heard of. Gaps in understanding I had no inkling were there.

(It's more or less clear from context, but in case, like me, anyone else wasn't 100% sure: the frost line is the depth below which the moisture in the ground never freezes, and in the U.S. it apparently varies regionally from zero feet -- where the surface never freezes year round -- all the way up to 8 feet in depth. Neat!)
posted by nobody at 4:29 PM on September 30, 2023 [4 favorites]

The part that boggles me about how NYC is built is that you go straight to rock as opposed to the soil you get in Houston, except for the parts of Manhattan that are basically land over landfill (I think that's a couple of parks, though). The other reason for pier-and-beam foundations in the Gulf Coast part of Texas is that they don't crack the way slab foundations do when the soil shifts. You can repair them a lot more easily than a slab.

But: even if the water is coming into the subway system in NYC and other underground infrastructure from above, usually in the form of rain, though, folks in the city are awful close to the water, and the water is rising. It's going to take a number of decades for the Gulf to rise into Houston. The ocean is a lot closer to rising into Manhattan and you can see it in a way that you don't on the Texas coast. There's flooding in Houston but waves coming up the Ship Channel isn't like high waves coming up to the southern tip of Manhattan in a tropical storm. And y'all up there seem to be getting them now. Whether or not it's true, it seems like NYC is getting more tropical weather than its 19th- and 20th-century underground infrastructure is designed to accommodate.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:45 PM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

Having grown up in Kansas City I thought the reason we had basements was because of tornados. Because that was where you went when there were watches and warnings.
posted by Windopaene at 7:18 PM on September 30, 2023 [7 favorites]

Also, post-glacial rebound is sinking NYC, NJ, Boston, etc faster than sea levels rise. And cities elsewhere face subsidence.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:45 PM on September 30, 2023

Nasa just published a scan of the NYC region using interferometric synthetic aperture radar (InSAR) that shows how fast the land is subsiding -- averaging about 1.6mm per year, with one of the runways at LaGuardia sinking at a rate of 3.7mm per year.
posted by theory at 7:56 PM on September 30, 2023 [6 favorites]

As for individuals, you could always put deflating SUV tires into your weekly routine.

Because being a lawless jerk is the best climate solution!
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 9:58 PM on October 2, 2023