Genuine role players will not care whether others are watching
October 6, 2023 6:55 AM Subscribe
Although the history of LARP as a legal defense is narrow, the authors share the concern that it may soon become commonplace. Early attempts at such a strategy have been made by a defendant acting alone6 or in loose cooperation with members of a fantasy group who knew each other only in the virtual world,7 claiming “artistic expression” to excuse threatening language. from LARPing and Violent Extremism [FBI's Law Enforcement Bulletin]
I not only played LARP Vampire the Masquerade back in 1995, but met my wife doing it. I was a Toreador, she a Ventrue. Still married. Haven't done LARPing in years, though I have a standing invitation from one of the people I DM for.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:41 AM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:41 AM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ugh. We had a MeTa two years ago asking folks not to use "LARPer" to refer to violent right-wing extremists, and now they're trying to use it as a legal defense? As a member of the FBI-noted "earliest formal LARP group", let me reiterate, "UUUUgggghhhh".
posted by hanov3r at 9:54 AM on October 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by hanov3r at 9:54 AM on October 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
It’s less about LARPing being used as a defense as a plausible cover story to why you and your buddies are doing tactical raid drills in the woods.
I also like the detail that domestic terrorists can often be identified by their lack of character sheets: https://queer.party/@neuracnu/111129415690266565
posted by neuracnu at 10:25 AM on October 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
I also like the detail that domestic terrorists can often be identified by their lack of character sheets: https://queer.party/@neuracnu/111129415690266565
posted by neuracnu at 10:25 AM on October 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
It's odd (and I think wrong) that discussion of law enforcement interest in a (purported) LARP means it's actually terrorism and not a LARP. Every LARPer I knew back in the day was always talking about avoiding and/or placating cops, park rangers, etc., who might otherwise stop the LARP, tow the LARPers cars, sweep up the LARPers street-clothes backpacks, etc.
posted by MattD at 10:48 AM on October 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MattD at 10:48 AM on October 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
"In the modern era, as extreme beliefs (e.g., anti-government or anti-law enforcement movements)..." (emphasis mine)
All Cops. All. FBI too, I guess?
posted by xedrik at 11:28 AM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
All Cops. All. FBI too, I guess?
posted by xedrik at 11:28 AM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Every LARPer I knew back in the day was always talking about avoiding and/or placating cops, park rangers, etc., who might otherwise stop the LARP
The number of times I've had to explain (just in the last, say, 3 years) to a uniformed official why I was carrying a legit 35# recurve bow in a local park might almost be amusing.
posted by hanov3r at 11:40 AM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
The number of times I've had to explain (just in the last, say, 3 years) to a uniformed official why I was carrying a legit 35# recurve bow in a local park might almost be amusing.
posted by hanov3r at 11:40 AM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I... what? This is... I think "unexpected and terrible" are pretty much the defining characteristics of the last eight years or so.
posted by poe at 11:53 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by poe at 11:53 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
hanov3r, I've had the complete opposite experience.
I've lost count of the times I've had to explain to archery range officials that my homemade fantasy inspired PVC bows are legit #25 to 50# fast and accurate shooters.
On the other hand I can go practice in local woods and parks and no cares about my "cosplay" bows.
This weekend is going to be fun, after a 3 month wait I finally received a sampler of Rekhaoil PVC dyes, no more peeling spray paint or crappy shoepolish finishes. I want to finish sanding the dragon head shaped siyahs for my PVC "horse bow" (came out at 38# at my draw length) and dye them bright red.
I also LARPed Vampire sometime in the 90s and made good friends there. I may have told the story before in MetaFilter, but the height of my LARPing time was at the International Book Fair in Guadalajara (second largest book fair in the world) where we played a homebrewed assasins/bodyguards game. Based on past experiences with uniformed people with guns, you could stab people by sticking a post-it note on their body and poison them by marking their cup or plate with a sharpie. The target, who got stabbed, was the most important guest that year, Salman Rushdie.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:54 AM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've lost count of the times I've had to explain to archery range officials that my homemade fantasy inspired PVC bows are legit #25 to 50# fast and accurate shooters.
On the other hand I can go practice in local woods and parks and no cares about my "cosplay" bows.
This weekend is going to be fun, after a 3 month wait I finally received a sampler of Rekhaoil PVC dyes, no more peeling spray paint or crappy shoepolish finishes. I want to finish sanding the dragon head shaped siyahs for my PVC "horse bow" (came out at 38# at my draw length) and dye them bright red.
I also LARPed Vampire sometime in the 90s and made good friends there. I may have told the story before in MetaFilter, but the height of my LARPing time was at the International Book Fair in Guadalajara (second largest book fair in the world) where we played a homebrewed assasins/bodyguards game. Based on past experiences with uniformed people with guns, you could stab people by sticking a post-it note on their body and poison them by marking their cup or plate with a sharpie. The target, who got stabbed, was the most important guest that year, Salman Rushdie.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:54 AM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Er, I hope Rushdie was a willing participant in this!
posted by tavella at 12:09 PM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:09 PM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
A slight aside:
For the current British analogue (in the semantic sense of "this LARPing as that" but also the extremist sense) -- see here. I have been dreading the day AI would be employed for tactics of psychological warfare (AI girlfriend? No built-in breakpoint for stopping of a criminal plot?), but it appears that day came at least 2 years ago and not with this last year's explosion of ChatGPT*. The article leaves out some details but if this technology were not being used nefariously at times, this would not be a news item, I would assume.
posted by sevenofspades at 3:26 PM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
For the current British analogue (in the semantic sense of "this LARPing as that" but also the extremist sense) -- see here. I have been dreading the day AI would be employed for tactics of psychological warfare (AI girlfriend? No built-in breakpoint for stopping of a criminal plot?), but it appears that day came at least 2 years ago and not with this last year's explosion of ChatGPT*. The article leaves out some details but if this technology were not being used nefariously at times, this would not be a news item, I would assume.
posted by sevenofspades at 3:26 PM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a member of the FBI-noted "earliest formal LARP group", let me reiterate, "UUUUgggghhhh".
I was once told by a Society for Creative Anachronism member that he was proud that the SCA is designated by the FBI as the 2nd-largest paramilitary organization in the U.S., where "paramilitary" is defined here as an org with a hierarchical command structure that conducts drills in wilderness maneuvers, survival tactics and combat.
The 1st-largest? Boy Scouts of America.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:38 PM on October 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I was once told by a Society for Creative Anachronism member that he was proud that the SCA is designated by the FBI as the 2nd-largest paramilitary organization in the U.S., where "paramilitary" is defined here as an org with a hierarchical command structure that conducts drills in wilderness maneuvers, survival tactics and combat.
The 1st-largest? Boy Scouts of America.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:38 PM on October 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
At the LARPs I attend, I usually find myself one of the oldest if not the oldest player, and certainly the one who's been doing it the longest (I made my first boffer weapons in 1988).
So it's an important subject for me. I've got a lot of feelings about this article:
1. I'm angry that extremists - racists and others - are using LARPing as an excuse. That they're actually doing something that could loosely be called a LARP. LARP communities are usually very accepting, compassionate places, and evil being done in our name is abhorrent.
but 2. I'm angry that the FBI has a bulletin on LARPing.
because 3. I'm angry because let me just say, there are a lot of queer LARPers like me out there who do *not* like law enforcement. Sorry, FBI, but we don't. Most of you are bad, bad people towards marginalized groups. I live in hope that you'll get better, but you, like all cops, have a long way to go.
and 4. That bit about being okay with audiences? That gets me upset too. While *I* love audiences for my LARPing, most LARPs I've seen *only* allow participants. Trust me, if tigrrrlily could come without LARPing to watch, she would.
So, as usual, the FBI gets a community full of neurodivergent, queer, and/or imaginative people wrong, writing a description that could get people in trouble or hurt - all while probably failing to catch the bad guys out there.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 5:06 PM on October 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
So it's an important subject for me. I've got a lot of feelings about this article:
1. I'm angry that extremists - racists and others - are using LARPing as an excuse. That they're actually doing something that could loosely be called a LARP. LARP communities are usually very accepting, compassionate places, and evil being done in our name is abhorrent.
but 2. I'm angry that the FBI has a bulletin on LARPing.
because 3. I'm angry because let me just say, there are a lot of queer LARPers like me out there who do *not* like law enforcement. Sorry, FBI, but we don't. Most of you are bad, bad people towards marginalized groups. I live in hope that you'll get better, but you, like all cops, have a long way to go.
and 4. That bit about being okay with audiences? That gets me upset too. While *I* love audiences for my LARPing, most LARPs I've seen *only* allow participants. Trust me, if tigrrrlily could come without LARPing to watch, she would.
So, as usual, the FBI gets a community full of neurodivergent, queer, and/or imaginative people wrong, writing a description that could get people in trouble or hurt - all while probably failing to catch the bad guys out there.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 5:06 PM on October 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
transgender furry teenagers
Well, God forbid.
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:01 PM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, God forbid.
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:01 PM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
The 1st-largest? Boy Scouts of America.
byThe Pluto Gangsta.
Im still keeping my webelo badges
posted by clavdivs at 8:36 PM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
byThe Pluto Gangsta.
Im still keeping my webelo badges
posted by clavdivs at 8:36 PM on October 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
the detail that domestic terrorists can often be identified by their lack of character sheets
A characterization that is still true if you drop the last word!
posted by eviemath at 8:46 PM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
A characterization that is still true if you drop the last word!
posted by eviemath at 8:46 PM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
LARP Vampire the Masquerade
Yep, unsurprised there are a number of us here. I still remember having to talk to law enforcement about why the group of us pretending to be vampires had nothing to do with a body discovered nearby in the ocean, so it's not like law enforcement has not always had problematic beliefs about LARPs.
posted by corb at 3:48 AM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yep, unsurprised there are a number of us here. I still remember having to talk to law enforcement about why the group of us pretending to be vampires had nothing to do with a body discovered nearby in the ocean, so it's not like law enforcement has not always had problematic beliefs about LARPs.
posted by corb at 3:48 AM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some friends of mine had armed police turn up their Shadowrun-eque (cyberpunk plus magic) event. This is despite that fact that the neighbours and the police had been informed about the event well in advance.
Fortunately, the Leicestershire police are not trigger happy and took the time to observe things. When one of the "corpses" got up to have a cigarette they decided that going in guns blazing was not the right approach. Both sides were slightly annoyed with each other but it all ended peacefully.
posted by antiwiggle at 5:30 AM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fortunately, the Leicestershire police are not trigger happy and took the time to observe things. When one of the "corpses" got up to have a cigarette they decided that going in guns blazing was not the right approach. Both sides were slightly annoyed with each other but it all ended peacefully.
posted by antiwiggle at 5:30 AM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I still remember having to talk to law enforcement
Okay, I must admit that the LARPs I ran in college were less than above-board. I used a classroom for a solo LARP after hours, laid flowers on a random grave in the graveyard nearby, held a nighttime ceremony in the stadium for a vampire to get ultimate power, broke into a dorm during the summer so we could run our LARP there, and the crowning achievement: escaped my murder charge via the steam tunnels, pursued by a ravenous ghoul. Somehow, I avoided the campus police for all of that.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 5:45 AM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Okay, I must admit that the LARPs I ran in college were less than above-board. I used a classroom for a solo LARP after hours, laid flowers on a random grave in the graveyard nearby, held a nighttime ceremony in the stadium for a vampire to get ultimate power, broke into a dorm during the summer so we could run our LARP there, and the crowning achievement: escaped my murder charge via the steam tunnels, pursued by a ravenous ghoul. Somehow, I avoided the campus police for all of that.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 5:45 AM on October 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
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LARP is such a weird, weird world. Most groups I've played with in the last decade have been a wild mix of guys who were at one point in the US military who have made that their entire fucking personality and transgender furry teenagers. You'd think those two groups would have trouble integrating but somehow everything gels beautifully.
Anyway, if these shitheads want to LARP violent extremism I hope they find some purpose of LARPing ten to fifteen years as federal inmates.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:42 AM on October 6, 2023 [18 favorites]