AI isn't the only threat to TV and movies.
October 11, 2023 12:06 PM Subscribe
The Hollywood reporter has a story about why the various Marvel TV series on Disney+ have been all over the place and how the company plans to fix the problems.
I mean... who knew that trying to re-invent a process that's been honed over decades had a probability for failing?
And it's interesting given how much overarching narrative control they enforce on the MCU that the shows kinda flounder. (I've liked most of them in a diverting fun to spend time with but no real connection sort of way) Secret Invasion should have been a walk in the park and nooope.
As for why they're continuing to develop for streaming - gotta have some way to refresh the brands and justify the $$ charged!
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:08 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
And it's interesting given how much overarching narrative control they enforce on the MCU that the shows kinda flounder. (I've liked most of them in a diverting fun to spend time with but no real connection sort of way) Secret Invasion should have been a walk in the park and nooope.
As for why they're continuing to develop for streaming - gotta have some way to refresh the brands and justify the $$ charged!
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:08 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a shame that the viewing numbers for Ms. Marvel are so low. That was a good show, and I am very much not a Marvel person, or even a superhero person.
posted by rikschell at 1:09 PM on October 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 1:09 PM on October 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
And it's interesting given how much overarching narrative control they enforce on the MCU that the shows kinda flounder.
I don’t know how much the idea of a singular point of control is true and how much it’s just everything is left up in the air till the last moment then decided in a panicy back and forth between producers and execs and then the beleaguered VFX crews and anyone else dragged in struggle to put something together at the last minute. Sometimes what pops out makes some kind of coherent sense, sometimes it doesn’t.
I guess that’s narrative control of a kind, but narrative planning it isn’t.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don’t know how much the idea of a singular point of control is true and how much it’s just everything is left up in the air till the last moment then decided in a panicy back and forth between producers and execs and then the beleaguered VFX crews and anyone else dragged in struggle to put something together at the last minute. Sometimes what pops out makes some kind of coherent sense, sometimes it doesn’t.
I guess that’s narrative control of a kind, but narrative planning it isn’t.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, honestly, and even though it fits with the WGAs thoughts on mini rooms better, I don’t see going from the miniseries model to basically the SHIELD model as likely to give people what they want.
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Goddamnit, a Daredevil legal procedural with limited (but intense) action could be awesome. One main court case over 18 episodes, a bit reminiscent of the good season of Bochco's Murder One. But executives always leap backwards into a comfort zone.
Looking at the list of Marvel Studios series so far, I'm surprised at how few I think worked. Wandavision was great; She-Hulk was entertaining and definitely a success on its own terms. Neither of these had much to do with traditional superhero narratives.
My reaction to all the other series was being excited by what was coming, a feeling which would wear off after the first few episodes. Partial exception for Hawkeye, which I feel kind of worked as a holiday miniseries. The Netflix ones have a better record with me but none really strung together multiple good seasons.
I mean, it's 2023. This lesson is obvious to everyone right now. I guess except to the people at Disney.
And Paramount and Netflix and Peacock and Amazon, among others? Or am I missing something?
I think there remains this feeling that if you are among the ones still standing after a big contraction, then your streaming platform can be part of the profitable future oligopoly. IMHO this isn't obviously false, and with Disney's existing catalog of content they have a decent position.
posted by mark k at 1:29 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Looking at the list of Marvel Studios series so far, I'm surprised at how few I think worked. Wandavision was great; She-Hulk was entertaining and definitely a success on its own terms. Neither of these had much to do with traditional superhero narratives.
My reaction to all the other series was being excited by what was coming, a feeling which would wear off after the first few episodes. Partial exception for Hawkeye, which I feel kind of worked as a holiday miniseries. The Netflix ones have a better record with me but none really strung together multiple good seasons.
I mean, it's 2023. This lesson is obvious to everyone right now. I guess except to the people at Disney.
And Paramount and Netflix and Peacock and Amazon, among others? Or am I missing something?
I think there remains this feeling that if you are among the ones still standing after a big contraction, then your streaming platform can be part of the profitable future oligopoly. IMHO this isn't obviously false, and with Disney's existing catalog of content they have a decent position.
posted by mark k at 1:29 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
A lot of this same info (among other problems with the movie industry today) is covered on this episode of Some More News. (you tube link)
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:33 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:33 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Exclusive streaming is stupid, the marginal cost of sharing bits means I shouldn't care whose servers I get the bits from.
Dismey has a legacy of exclusivity and, since buying LucasFilm and Marvel Studios, of handing single narrative control to people ill-suited to do it well. The counterpoint is the collective editorial direction of the Star Trek Litverse (previously).
posted by k3ninho at 1:34 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dismey has a legacy of exclusivity and, since buying LucasFilm and Marvel Studios, of handing single narrative control to people ill-suited to do it well. The counterpoint is the collective editorial direction of the Star Trek Litverse (previously).
posted by k3ninho at 1:34 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
One big problem with both DC and Marvel is they are spending too many resources on D-list characters in live-action - Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, Blue Beetle, even Secret Invasion - A-list actor but a supporting character story-wise. DC has a good solution - one actor playing Superman in features and another playing him on TV. Even having two A-list actors playing Batman in separate franchises. No one seems confused.
Introduce B-list, C-list, D-list characters as supporting characters with the A-listers and then spin them off to something. Loki, for example. Flash would be another example you know...if only...
posted by Billiken at 1:41 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Introduce B-list, C-list, D-list characters as supporting characters with the A-listers and then spin them off to something. Loki, for example. Flash would be another example you know...if only...
posted by Billiken at 1:41 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the one thing you can say about the exclusive streaming model is that it made a lot more sense to grow and lock in an audience when: 1) there were fewer exclusive streamers around trying to do the exact same thing, 2) there was free money floating around in the form of zero interest loans and 3) the whole thing could be subsidized to an extent by fucking everyone on residuals.
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Marvel seems to have the idea that all its movies/shows should form a single coherent universe, apparently under a single vision, that of Kevin Feige. This seems barmy to me.
As a counterexample, DC seems happy to let a creator do whatever they want within a series or comic, including reinterpreting or killing off characters. E.g the Harley Quinn series, or the Arkham games, or Cliff Chiang's reimagining of Catwoman. These aren't required to fit in with the current movies or TV shows. I think this makes for stronger, more quirky creations.
(This impression may be totally wrong— the Marvel live-action stuff doesn't grab me— but it alarms me that in the story Feige is the one deciding that the show doesn't work. Back off, man!)
posted by zompist at 1:57 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
As a counterexample, DC seems happy to let a creator do whatever they want within a series or comic, including reinterpreting or killing off characters. E.g the Harley Quinn series, or the Arkham games, or Cliff Chiang's reimagining of Catwoman. These aren't required to fit in with the current movies or TV shows. I think this makes for stronger, more quirky creations.
(This impression may be totally wrong— the Marvel live-action stuff doesn't grab me— but it alarms me that in the story Feige is the one deciding that the show doesn't work. Back off, man!)
posted by zompist at 1:57 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm surprised they didn't have showrunners before, but I guess in hindsight it makes sense--a lot of the Disney Marvel shows have felt like they didn't have a strong creative vision. I liked She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, and parts of WandaVision and Moon Knight but skipped both Hawkeye and Falcon and the Winter Soldier because they looked like they weren't going to offer anything new (Secret Invasion seemed briefly interesting--I was imagining the paranoia and political intrigue of Parallax View maintained over a miniseries--but then I read the reviews).
I've slowly become convinced that most Marvel shows and movies aim towards satisficing rather than shooting for the stars with singular visions and fearless creators. I understand the impulse--there's a lot of money at stake--but the Marvel universe increasingly feels like a missed opportunity to me. I love comics but I've given up expecting anything brave from Marvel--certainly not a Kraven's Last Hunt; and even Gang War feels more like Netflix's Marvel than Disney's.
posted by johnofjack at 2:02 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've slowly become convinced that most Marvel shows and movies aim towards satisficing rather than shooting for the stars with singular visions and fearless creators. I understand the impulse--there's a lot of money at stake--but the Marvel universe increasingly feels like a missed opportunity to me. I love comics but I've given up expecting anything brave from Marvel--certainly not a Kraven's Last Hunt; and even Gang War feels more like Netflix's Marvel than Disney's.
posted by johnofjack at 2:02 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
johnofjack, Hawkeye is quite fun in its own right. Think of Die Hard meets Ms. Marvel meets, like, The Force Awakens somehow? It's so good. It would likely be a fun quick watch the weekend before Christmas, if that's your kind of thing.
posted by Night_owl at 2:07 PM on October 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Night_owl at 2:07 PM on October 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
Exclusive streaming is stupid, the marginal cost of sharing bits means I shouldn't care whose servers I get the bits from.
Where does the cash to create those bits in the first place come from then? ‘Cause the cost of those bits isn’t marginal. The various services need to stand-out from each other in order to lure subscribers, and exclusivity is one tool to that end.
Or, are you imagining some clearinghouse where consumers pay one fee and get access to everything? That’s just reinventing cable.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:12 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Where does the cash to create those bits in the first place come from then? ‘Cause the cost of those bits isn’t marginal. The various services need to stand-out from each other in order to lure subscribers, and exclusivity is one tool to that end.
Or, are you imagining some clearinghouse where consumers pay one fee and get access to everything? That’s just reinventing cable.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:12 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s just reinventing cable.
As was said earlier in this thread, it's almost like trying to disrupt an industry that evolved over decades and expecting to find a new way toward profit is a foolish endeavor.
You can look at other internet disruptive industries, like rideshare services or streaming music services, and do ANY of them make a profit? I believe Uber and Lyft are still supported by new rounds of VC, and I know Spotify can't make a profit to save its own ass.
It's nearly like the economy that had developed did so for a reason, and it's not clear that trying to Intelligent Design a new version of an economy will actually be viable.
posted by hippybear at 2:19 PM on October 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
As was said earlier in this thread, it's almost like trying to disrupt an industry that evolved over decades and expecting to find a new way toward profit is a foolish endeavor.
You can look at other internet disruptive industries, like rideshare services or streaming music services, and do ANY of them make a profit? I believe Uber and Lyft are still supported by new rounds of VC, and I know Spotify can't make a profit to save its own ass.
It's nearly like the economy that had developed did so for a reason, and it's not clear that trying to Intelligent Design a new version of an economy will actually be viable.
posted by hippybear at 2:19 PM on October 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm with you, mark k. When I read the article earlier today, my reaction was disappointment that we weren't getting a DD show where Matt doesn't show up in costume until four episodes in, and is heavily involved in a legal drama. That's EXACTLY what I want from DD. That's not to say there can't be any action without the red suit--there can still be plenty, if the writers are smart about it, and the producers let it happen. Sadly however, we're just going to end up with more of the same. Big punch-fests with little drabs of character moments.
johnofjack I second Night_owl. Hawkeye isn't deep or earth shattering but it's just entertaining enough to be worth some time.
posted by sardonyx at 2:19 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
johnofjack I second Night_owl. Hawkeye isn't deep or earth shattering but it's just entertaining enough to be worth some time.
posted by sardonyx at 2:19 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Plus Hawkeye has the the great result of having put "Rogers The Musical" out there in the universe.
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:46 PM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:46 PM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
One big problem with both DC and Marvel is they are spending too many resources on D-list characters in live-action
Counterpoint: Guardians of the Galaxy, which may not have even counted as D-list in the comics, but the film series got stronger as it progressed. And Marvel actually sold off the rights to its A-listers (X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man) and is just now getting them back (well, not even that for Spidey).
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:48 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Counterpoint: Guardians of the Galaxy, which may not have even counted as D-list in the comics, but the film series got stronger as it progressed. And Marvel actually sold off the rights to its A-listers (X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man) and is just now getting them back (well, not even that for Spidey).
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:48 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don’t have a grasp at how the movie and TV industry works anymore. I just miss having the ability to BUY the movie or TV series on DVD that I can watch whenever I want. Once upon a time I could purchase pretty much anything I wanted. Now? Pretty much nothing comes out on DVD. They lost my business because I’m not going to sign up for any streaming service because, for me, 95% of what they have, I have no interest in. It’s the 5% that I miss. A few years back I could purchase the 5% on DVD.
posted by njohnson23 at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
it's being proven over and over that streaming is where you bring your projects after you've made money with them in another venue like broadcast television or theatrical release. Creating projects for streaming doesn't bring in increased revenue for a streaming platform.
Really? The only reason I ever subscribed to Disney+ was they had a bunch of ongoing new stuff I wanted to see like Mandalorian and WandaVision and came back later for Andor. And I stuck with it much longer than I would have out of misguided hopes for stuff like Loki and CA/Winter Soldier. Didn't HBO have a lot of success with it's prestige original stuff like Sorpranos and Game of Thrones? Or is that business model ancient history now?
I'd sign up again if they could put together a good Season 2 of Loki, but they'd have to figure out how to hire some good writers instead of the guy who brought us Loki Season 1 and the Multiverse of Madness.
posted by straight at 3:20 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Really? The only reason I ever subscribed to Disney+ was they had a bunch of ongoing new stuff I wanted to see like Mandalorian and WandaVision and came back later for Andor. And I stuck with it much longer than I would have out of misguided hopes for stuff like Loki and CA/Winter Soldier. Didn't HBO have a lot of success with it's prestige original stuff like Sorpranos and Game of Thrones? Or is that business model ancient history now?
I'd sign up again if they could put together a good Season 2 of Loki, but they'd have to figure out how to hire some good writers instead of the guy who brought us Loki Season 1 and the Multiverse of Madness.
posted by straight at 3:20 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
The first episode of Season 2 of Loki was good and promising.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:22 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:22 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think they have to produce exclusive content in order to attract people like me. I used to have all the streamers but when they all simultaneously raised their prices I decided "fuck that" and cancelled half of them. I used to only churn the outlying streamers like Paramount+, AMC, Epix and Disney and such while always having HBO, Hulu, Netflix. I've cancelled Netflix and HBOMax because I now find it onerous to dig through all their crapflooding. I'll cancel Hulu soon as I have worked through most of what I want to watch. I'm pretty much going full churn on them all now and keeping a notebook of things I want to watch so they can't even hold my watchlist hostage. So if you want me to subscribe even for just a single month you've got to have something I want to watch and I'm going to wait until S1 is at least done before considering it. I might even wait to see if S2 is coming, after Prime Video's rugpull on The Peripheral, before investing my time and treasure.
Going forward I am treating streaming channels as a blockbuster video rental. You want my $10-15 you have to have a lot for me to watch the hell out of.
posted by srboisvert at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Going forward I am treating streaming channels as a blockbuster video rental. You want my $10-15 you have to have a lot for me to watch the hell out of.
posted by srboisvert at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
One big problem with both DC and Marvel is they are spending too many resources on D-list characters in live-action
Counterpoint: Guardians of the Galaxy
If we are brutally honest about comics circa 2008, counterpoint: Iron Man and the rest of The Avengers.
posted by Artw at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
Counterpoint: Guardians of the Galaxy
If we are brutally honest about comics circa 2008, counterpoint: Iron Man and the rest of The Avengers.
posted by Artw at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
Didn't HBO have a lot of success with it's prestige original stuff like Sorpranos and Game of Thrones?
HBO [RIP .] had original stuff pulling in subscribers to its premium cable service since the Eighties when it started, basically. Garry Shandling had a series there long before Tony Soprano did. They've done a great job providing material available only on their platform for literally decades. I just am not certain how the model wherein you're carried across a cable wire as a premium channel differs from being a standalone streaming service, but apparently the per-viewer numbers are lowers than expected. The reality is they've overspent for original material to the point that they're literally shelving new material before it airs so they don't have to pay to show the material.
posted by hippybear at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
HBO [RIP .] had original stuff pulling in subscribers to its premium cable service since the Eighties when it started, basically. Garry Shandling had a series there long before Tony Soprano did. They've done a great job providing material available only on their platform for literally decades. I just am not certain how the model wherein you're carried across a cable wire as a premium channel differs from being a standalone streaming service, but apparently the per-viewer numbers are lowers than expected. The reality is they've overspent for original material to the point that they're literally shelving new material before it airs so they don't have to pay to show the material.
posted by hippybear at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the case of HBO a lot of that’s down to, depending on your viewpoint, Zaslav pretending to be a big swing dick business genius with great ideas, or the enormous amount of debt the various company purchases and mergers putting it under Zaslav included, meaning he has to pretend he’s going to pay it down with penny pinching cuts to anything that isn’t one of his pet projects.
posted by Artw at 3:33 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:33 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Weird that Disney is going to continue to lean into streaming when it's being proven over and over that streaming is where you bring your projects after you've made money with them in another venue
I think the answer here is that if they figure out how to make it work it is going to make them piles of money.
posted by bdc34 at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2023
I think the answer here is that if they figure out how to make it work it is going to make them piles of money.
posted by bdc34 at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2023
Narrator: It wasn't going to make them piles of money.
posted by hippybear at 3:39 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:39 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have watched some Disney + shows all the way through (Andor, Loki, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Moon Knight) and tried to watch others before giving up (all the other ones, though I believe the people who say Ms Marvel is good). The Marvel ones that "worked" didn't have a lot to do with the movies; they were able to develop their own characters and stories without a breathless introduction that "____ takes place after ____ and explains what [tertiary character from the movies] is getting up to before _____."
(Andor also "works" for that reason, even though it's literally a "Andor takes place after the fall of the Republic and show what the second-billed guy in Rogue One got up to before his movie and the start of the original trilogy." But Star Wars film and TV shows loop so relentlessly back to the first six movies that Andor seems highly original by virtue of not dropping a John Williams score before wheeling out a Glup Shitto every episode.)
I'm wondering if Disney just views the Marvel/Star Wars as a value add to their core streaming audience (people who have to subscribe for princess-movie reasons).
posted by grandiloquiet at 3:41 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
(Andor also "works" for that reason, even though it's literally a "Andor takes place after the fall of the Republic and show what the second-billed guy in Rogue One got up to before his movie and the start of the original trilogy." But Star Wars film and TV shows loop so relentlessly back to the first six movies that Andor seems highly original by virtue of not dropping a John Williams score before wheeling out a Glup Shitto every episode.)
I'm wondering if Disney just views the Marvel/Star Wars as a value add to their core streaming audience (people who have to subscribe for princess-movie reasons).
posted by grandiloquiet at 3:41 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would also seriously enjoy procedurals with scarce but cool action. I am usually brought into Marvel stuff by my son, thank goodness he vets this stuff for me. Most of these shows reek of execs pounding a desk and screaming that they are leaving money on the table, and I feel for good people trying their best to make something under those conditions.
I am seriously get-off-my-lawn mad that I need to spend as much or more on entertainment now what with all the services. I am mad enough that I was hoping amazon would just bulk them all, hopefully pass some savings along, and give me only one crappy interface to learn for it all.
Add double super grumpiness for realizing that espn+ which I got through verizon didn’t have MNF only espn nonplussed, which I cant get because that depends on some other subscription I dont have. So gross.
The very bright side is I spend more time absorbing WFMU audio and various podcasts which sometimes leads to spontaneous cleaning projects around the house.
posted by drowsy at 4:04 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am seriously get-off-my-lawn mad that I need to spend as much or more on entertainment now what with all the services. I am mad enough that I was hoping amazon would just bulk them all, hopefully pass some savings along, and give me only one crappy interface to learn for it all.
Add double super grumpiness for realizing that espn+ which I got through verizon didn’t have MNF only espn nonplussed, which I cant get because that depends on some other subscription I dont have. So gross.
The very bright side is I spend more time absorbing WFMU audio and various podcasts which sometimes leads to spontaneous cleaning projects around the house.
posted by drowsy at 4:04 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've enjoyed the majority of the Marvel TV shows far, far more than the movies for the last few years actually. I am way more likely to rewatch Moon Knight, Loki, or Hawkeye for the nth time than I am to rewatch End Game, Multiverse of Madness, or even watch the latest Guardians movie for the first time.
Lack of a showrunner explains a LOT about the otherwise excellent Ms Marvel though.
posted by Saucy Possum at 4:14 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Lack of a showrunner explains a LOT about the otherwise excellent Ms Marvel though.
posted by Saucy Possum at 4:14 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ms Marvel is very solidly the work of Adil El Arbi and Bilall Fallah who acted as writers and directors on most of it, and frankly did an amazing job on 2-3rds of it and then there’s a 3rd that’s about Clan Destine for some reason, which is not D, E or F list source material, and it flounders considerably before winding up at some franchise serving business.
But the bits that work really work. Would have loved to see what they were doing with Batgirl.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
But the bits that work really work. Would have loved to see what they were doing with Batgirl.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Remember that old commercial about (what looks like) a business type person (middle aged male) who comes into this Motel Reception area (pouring rain) and after being disappointed in what's available the snarky receptionist says "...and every Movie and show that was ever made, on the (Motel) TV". Or something like that.
Even then I thought that was funny.
posted by aleph at 4:35 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even then I thought that was funny.
posted by aleph at 4:35 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Add double super grumpiness for realizing that espn+ which I got through verizon didn’t have MNF only espn nonplussed, which I cant get because that depends on some other subscription I dont have. So gross.
I gave up on figuring out how to watch NFL games. I subscribed to NFL Pass or some such for two years because I liked watching the condensed games but this year I tried but couldn't figure out how to get it! If I'm going to dig that deep through byzantine crap I'd rather get a PhD.
posted by srboisvert at 4:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I gave up on figuring out how to watch NFL games. I subscribed to NFL Pass or some such for two years because I liked watching the condensed games but this year I tried but couldn't figure out how to get it! If I'm going to dig that deep through byzantine crap I'd rather get a PhD.
posted by srboisvert at 4:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Marvel shows that have worked have worked on their own merits. I loved WandaVision for its meditation on sorrow and grief through the lens of pop culture. She-Hulk was a delightful Millennial legal sitcom. Loki (at least the first season) was a British sci-fi series.
Moon Knight was fun but I admit I don't remember much about it. Hawkeye was surprisingly good, but that was for Kate and Yelena only.
Ms. Marvel is a delight.
The good shows have a cohesive vision of what they're doing and what they're trying to say.
The problem is that these shows always need to be pointing to the next thing -- the next movie, the next event. It's forever leveling up and it's boring. I just want to watch a show and enjoy it on its own and not feel like it's part of some bigger plot.
I've read comics for most of my life. I'm still a believer you should be able to pick up any issue and enjoy it on its own even if you don't know the whole backstory or anything. The MCU shows I've liked have been the same.
posted by edencosmic at 4:54 PM on October 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Moon Knight was fun but I admit I don't remember much about it. Hawkeye was surprisingly good, but that was for Kate and Yelena only.
Ms. Marvel is a delight.
The good shows have a cohesive vision of what they're doing and what they're trying to say.
The problem is that these shows always need to be pointing to the next thing -- the next movie, the next event. It's forever leveling up and it's boring. I just want to watch a show and enjoy it on its own and not feel like it's part of some bigger plot.
I've read comics for most of my life. I'm still a believer you should be able to pick up any issue and enjoy it on its own even if you don't know the whole backstory or anything. The MCU shows I've liked have been the same.
posted by edencosmic at 4:54 PM on October 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
The problem is that these shows always need to be pointing to the next thing -- the next movie, the next event. It's forever leveling up and it's boring. I just want to watch a show and enjoy it on its own and not feel like it's part of some bigger plot.I’ve felt that in many ways the comics are holding them back: it’s handy to start with a lot of well-known characters but it also means everything has to be !!!EPIC!!! and really limits what the writers can do. I appreciate that some talented people are trying to make it work but it leaves me wondering what they’d come up with if the same people were allowed to take chances on something new.
posted by adamsc at 5:10 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Moon Knight was fun but I admit I don't remember much about it.
Is it possible you are Moon Knight?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:16 PM on October 11, 2023 [44 favorites]
Is it possible you are Moon Knight?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:16 PM on October 11, 2023 [44 favorites]
I'm not really a fan... but I really liked that retro introduction to WandaVision.
posted by ovvl at 5:34 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 5:34 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
“Why Are Modern Blockbusters So... Not Very Good?”—Some More News, 11 October 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2023
I liked most of Ms Marvel but they totally dropped the ball on developing Damage Control as an antagonist.
posted by quillbreaker at 7:12 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by quillbreaker at 7:12 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I hope they don't change too much. From that list I actively liked Loki, WandaVision, She-Hulk, Moon Knight, Ms Marvel and What If. Hawkeye and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier were OK. Only Secret Invasion was an outright stinker. That's not a bad output from a corporate machine.
I'm a bit dubious about going back to "multiseason serialized TV". I don't have much TV watching time, I like the way these things are just 6 to 8 episodes. Longer series just suck up too much time. I even struggled to get through the first season of Jessica Jones and didn't bother with more. Even with just 13 episodes far too many of them were "Almost got Kilgrave oops he got away at the last minute again". With superhero stuff it's a struggle to do long-running plots, you just end up with a lot of filler where the hero just beats up random henchmen and the big villain twiddles his thumbs offscreen.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm a bit dubious about going back to "multiseason serialized TV". I don't have much TV watching time, I like the way these things are just 6 to 8 episodes. Longer series just suck up too much time. I even struggled to get through the first season of Jessica Jones and didn't bother with more. Even with just 13 episodes far too many of them were "Almost got Kilgrave oops he got away at the last minute again". With superhero stuff it's a struggle to do long-running plots, you just end up with a lot of filler where the hero just beats up random henchmen and the big villain twiddles his thumbs offscreen.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m curious what the economics would look like if Disney+ just focused hard on the Disney brand’s historic strengths: content for kids, teens, and families, including their huge existing library and new, reasonable-budget programming for kids and teens.
Basically, make Disney+ an affordable no-brainer monthly bill for anyone with kids or grandkids, plus adult fans of existing Marvel, Lucas, Simpsons, etc., content, instead of regularly raising prices to pay for high concept comic book shows for fickle adults.
posted by smelendez at 8:16 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Basically, make Disney+ an affordable no-brainer monthly bill for anyone with kids or grandkids, plus adult fans of existing Marvel, Lucas, Simpsons, etc., content, instead of regularly raising prices to pay for high concept comic book shows for fickle adults.
posted by smelendez at 8:16 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
That’s just reinventing cable.
Which has been the direction of the streaming services for a bit; Apple+ is doing MLS, Disney+ is now struggling ine India after losing rights to cricket, and I'm sure there's some more examples of services trying to bundle or have add-ons of sports broadcasts. So TV shows, movies, sports, and I figure it won't be long until one of them starts a news service on their platform (maybe they already have), and so on. Adam Conover made this point in some of the interviews he did during the WGA strike.
I know I felt quite bemused when the streaming services went to releasing new episodes of a series once per week; the big selling point had always been the ability to binge, as opposed to the network model of having to wait.
posted by nubs at 8:22 PM on October 11, 2023
Which has been the direction of the streaming services for a bit; Apple+ is doing MLS, Disney+ is now struggling ine India after losing rights to cricket, and I'm sure there's some more examples of services trying to bundle or have add-ons of sports broadcasts. So TV shows, movies, sports, and I figure it won't be long until one of them starts a news service on their platform (maybe they already have), and so on. Adam Conover made this point in some of the interviews he did during the WGA strike.
I know I felt quite bemused when the streaming services went to releasing new episodes of a series once per week; the big selling point had always been the ability to binge, as opposed to the network model of having to wait.
posted by nubs at 8:22 PM on October 11, 2023
Iron Man kicked things off for Marvel. Then you had others come along, Thor, Captain America, and the first Avengers movie. The thing about those movies (and also Guardians of the Galaxy was that they were first and foremost FUN. Now with the constant intertwining of movies and TV shows and everything pointing to other shows, Marvel was taking itself far too seriously. The movies just were nowhere near as fun as they used to be. I remember some friends getting into WandaVision but then getting lost when they worked other plots such as Endgame into it. If I’m going to see a superhero movie, I wanna munch popcorn and have a good time, not try to figure out which movies I missed that would explain the plot that’s in front of me.
posted by azpenguin at 10:03 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 10:03 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
>> Iron Man kicked things off for Marvel.
I would not say that anywhere within Blade's hearing range.
Kidding aside, and to the comment much further up, yeah, Iron Man and Cap were not that prominent in Marvel Comics' output until Jon Favreau made his movie. X-Men, Spidey and First Family 4 were the hot properties and money makers historically which is why MC had to sell the movie rights off to keep the lights on when comics crashed from surplus production in the 90's. The growing success of the MCU put Fantastic Four and the X-Men comics on the back burner because Marvel didn't own the characters for movies (shakes fist at Ike Perlmutter specifically).
The interlaced storytelling between the movies and shows are a direct lift from comics continuity which has been and always will be a mess. The cavalcade of characters, whatever their A, B, C, D list status, means there's something for everyone and any niche minority of fandom can be catered for.
What Marvel Studios gets wrong is assuming that slapping their logo at the start of something means the assembled MCU fandom will watch and enjoy it. Then we end up with people complaining about Moon Knight being confusing, or Ms Marvel being childish, or Hawkeye being just a guy with a bow and arrow - like, that is literally the niche they're catering to; mystery, teens, people who like Hawkeye. It's not all being produced as one homogeneous output for Joe Average, but Marvel Studios want their Venn diagram to fully encompass everyone who has watched a previous production every single time they make something new.
posted by Molesome at 3:05 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would not say that anywhere within Blade's hearing range.
Kidding aside, and to the comment much further up, yeah, Iron Man and Cap were not that prominent in Marvel Comics' output until Jon Favreau made his movie. X-Men, Spidey and First Family 4 were the hot properties and money makers historically which is why MC had to sell the movie rights off to keep the lights on when comics crashed from surplus production in the 90's. The growing success of the MCU put Fantastic Four and the X-Men comics on the back burner because Marvel didn't own the characters for movies (shakes fist at Ike Perlmutter specifically).
The interlaced storytelling between the movies and shows are a direct lift from comics continuity which has been and always will be a mess. The cavalcade of characters, whatever their A, B, C, D list status, means there's something for everyone and any niche minority of fandom can be catered for.
What Marvel Studios gets wrong is assuming that slapping their logo at the start of something means the assembled MCU fandom will watch and enjoy it. Then we end up with people complaining about Moon Knight being confusing, or Ms Marvel being childish, or Hawkeye being just a guy with a bow and arrow - like, that is literally the niche they're catering to; mystery, teens, people who like Hawkeye. It's not all being produced as one homogeneous output for Joe Average, but Marvel Studios want their Venn diagram to fully encompass everyone who has watched a previous production every single time they make something new.
posted by Molesome at 3:05 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Marvel seems to have the idea that all its movies/shows should form a single coherent universe, apparently under a single vision, that of Kevin Feige. This seems barmy to me.
As a counterexample, DC seems happy to let a creator do whatever they want within a series or comic, including reinterpreting or killing off characters. E.g the Harley Quinn series, or the Arkham games, or Cliff Chiang's reimagining of Catwoman. These aren't required to fit in with the current movies or TV shows. I think this makes for stronger, more quirky creations.
(This impression may be totally wrong— the Marvel live-action stuff doesn't grab me— but it alarms me that in the story Feige is the one deciding that the show doesn't work. Back off, man!)
This is a really weird take, since Feige holding the reins and keeping a single coherent vision is one of the strengths of the MCU and part of why the whole Infinity Saga was wildly successful.
DC, by comparison, has been largely a big mess, with a few gems here and there. They tried to speedrun the ground work Marvel did with their early movies and fumbled the bag hard with Justice League. Some of their animation and live action shows have been good, but they don't connect in any way.
Their two big movies this year were both flops, and now they're rebooting everything with James Gunn as their visionary, which hopefully will succeed. DC has some of the most iconic superheroes of all time, they just need someone who "gets" them to drive things.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:17 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
As a counterexample, DC seems happy to let a creator do whatever they want within a series or comic, including reinterpreting or killing off characters. E.g the Harley Quinn series, or the Arkham games, or Cliff Chiang's reimagining of Catwoman. These aren't required to fit in with the current movies or TV shows. I think this makes for stronger, more quirky creations.
(This impression may be totally wrong— the Marvel live-action stuff doesn't grab me— but it alarms me that in the story Feige is the one deciding that the show doesn't work. Back off, man!)
This is a really weird take, since Feige holding the reins and keeping a single coherent vision is one of the strengths of the MCU and part of why the whole Infinity Saga was wildly successful.
DC, by comparison, has been largely a big mess, with a few gems here and there. They tried to speedrun the ground work Marvel did with their early movies and fumbled the bag hard with Justice League. Some of their animation and live action shows have been good, but they don't connect in any way.
Their two big movies this year were both flops, and now they're rebooting everything with James Gunn as their visionary, which hopefully will succeed. DC has some of the most iconic superheroes of all time, they just need someone who "gets" them to drive things.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:17 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would not say that anywhere within Blade's hearing range.
I would not say that anywhere within Howard the Duck’s hearing range.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 6:25 AM on October 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would not say that anywhere within Howard the Duck’s hearing range.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 6:25 AM on October 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I do one streaming service at a time for a couple of months, then drop it and wander to another. A few weeks ago I started on Disney+ specifically to get caught up on the MCU, and more specifically to watch the third Guardians movie.
I'd gotten all the way to Ms. Marvel on my last run, so I had the following on my menu:
Thor: Love and Thunder
I Am Groot season 1
She-Hulk: Attorney at Law
Werewolf By Night
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special
Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3
Secret Invasion
I enjoyed Werewolf By Night. That's about it. The rest? Grim. And I mean grim. So many funerals. So much angst. So little fun. But I slogged through it, hoping Guardians 3 would be worth it all. And I got to Guardians 3, and what did I find?
Graphic animal abuse.
I know a lot of people don't have a problem with how the abuse was portrayed in the movie, but it was way over my threshold. I went into that movie for fun, and instead I got mental images that I'd really much rather not have, thank you.
And then there was Secret Invasion. I lasted an episode, checked the reviews, and noped out.
They've lost me. I've been a regular since the beginning, I've been a must-watch-everything fan, and I'm done. If something in the future MCU gets awesome reviews and everyone is raving about it and the reviewer consensus is good, I'll check it out if I run across it. Probably.
There's a reason comics franchises desperately try to reboot after dabbling in multiple dimensions and time travel for a while; it robs the story of any power knowing that it can be undone in the blink of an eye by a time/dimension traveler. Add to that the inertia of fifteen years' worth of lugubrious backstory, and of course the writers want to blow everything up and start over fresh.
I hope they figure out how to bring the fun back.
posted by MrVisible at 7:31 AM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd gotten all the way to Ms. Marvel on my last run, so I had the following on my menu:
Thor: Love and Thunder
I Am Groot season 1
She-Hulk: Attorney at Law
Werewolf By Night
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special
Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3
Secret Invasion
I enjoyed Werewolf By Night. That's about it. The rest? Grim. And I mean grim. So many funerals. So much angst. So little fun. But I slogged through it, hoping Guardians 3 would be worth it all. And I got to Guardians 3, and what did I find?
Graphic animal abuse.
I know a lot of people don't have a problem with how the abuse was portrayed in the movie, but it was way over my threshold. I went into that movie for fun, and instead I got mental images that I'd really much rather not have, thank you.
And then there was Secret Invasion. I lasted an episode, checked the reviews, and noped out.
They've lost me. I've been a regular since the beginning, I've been a must-watch-everything fan, and I'm done. If something in the future MCU gets awesome reviews and everyone is raving about it and the reviewer consensus is good, I'll check it out if I run across it. Probably.
There's a reason comics franchises desperately try to reboot after dabbling in multiple dimensions and time travel for a while; it robs the story of any power knowing that it can be undone in the blink of an eye by a time/dimension traveler. Add to that the inertia of fifteen years' worth of lugubrious backstory, and of course the writers want to blow everything up and start over fresh.
I hope they figure out how to bring the fun back.
posted by MrVisible at 7:31 AM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Huh. I thought/think “Loki” is really sort of fantastic (and I’m not really a superhero girl). The rest I’ve been lukewarm to “nope” on.
posted by thivaia at 8:06 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by thivaia at 8:06 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thor: Love and Thunder--depressing, did not enjoy
I Am Groot season 1 -cartoon
She-Hulk: Attorney at Law--liked this one
Werewolf By Night--Literally never heard of this
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever --depressing, for obvious reasons why
The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special--liked this one
Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania--actually better than I expected (Doctor Strange 2 is my nadir of the ones I dragged through)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3--started watching it last week, haven't finished it, not sure I wanna given depressing, animal abuse. And this was the fun series, darn it.
Secret Invasion -quit halfway through, bo-ring.
Ms. Marvel: was fun, enjoyed.
Loki: -enjoyed
Falcon and the Winter Soldier--kinda boring
Hawkeye:--was fun
WandaVision: inventive, fun, depressing ending
Honestly, I feel like it's hard to trump Endgame and that's what the main problem is. Anything afterwards is anticlimactic.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:25 AM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I Am Groot season 1 -cartoon
She-Hulk: Attorney at Law--liked this one
Werewolf By Night--Literally never heard of this
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever --depressing, for obvious reasons why
The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special--liked this one
Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania--actually better than I expected (Doctor Strange 2 is my nadir of the ones I dragged through)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3--started watching it last week, haven't finished it, not sure I wanna given depressing, animal abuse. And this was the fun series, darn it.
Secret Invasion -quit halfway through, bo-ring.
Ms. Marvel: was fun, enjoyed.
Loki: -enjoyed
Falcon and the Winter Soldier--kinda boring
Hawkeye:--was fun
WandaVision: inventive, fun, depressing ending
Honestly, I feel like it's hard to trump Endgame and that's what the main problem is. Anything afterwards is anticlimactic.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:25 AM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
ob1quixote: “‘Why Are Modern Blockbusters So... Not Very Good?’ —Some More News, 11 October 2023”Cf. “Who Is Killing Cinema? – A Murder Mystery”—Patrick (H) Willems, 03 October 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 9:32 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
That Patrick (H) Willems script is really good and points out an entire set of trends that have come together to basically kill the kind of movies that everyone likes in favor of movies that will make tons of money. These are not congruent sets, and he points out what brought us to here really well.
posted by hippybear at 9:35 AM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:35 AM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
“Is it possible you are Moon Knight?”
Are you saying there's some kind of connection between edencosmic and Moon Knight?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:13 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are you saying there's some kind of connection between edencosmic and Moon Knight?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:13 AM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
A big part of why a lot of these series aren’t entirely working is that many of them start off with something to say and completely pull back when the story gets too threatening to the status quo. Falcon and The Winter Soldier looks like it’s ready to go HARD on American exceptionalism and treatment of people of color and backs away with a really unsatisfying can-we-just-get-along conclusion. I picture a studio executive shouting “Whoa, whoa, WHOA, not like THAT!”
Also, we’re getting absolutely flooded with too much material and I think we need a break. Or perhaps a regular off season.
posted by Eikonaut at 11:54 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, we’re getting absolutely flooded with too much material and I think we need a break. Or perhaps a regular off season.
posted by Eikonaut at 11:54 AM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Marvel seems to have the idea that all its movies/shows should form a single coherent universe, apparently under a single vision, that of Kevin Feige.
It's kind of in the DNA?
To grossly oversimplify, the Marvel comic universe came about with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby working like madmen on multiple books every month and cross-selling fairly heavily.The self-conscious humor and slice of lifey bits in the MCU are also very 60s Marvel.
DC's most successful works historically tended to deviate from the status quo. The Batman tv series of the 60s, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, all took those characters in idiosyncratic directions. Marvel never really hit it quite like that.
posted by StarkRoads at 4:06 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's kind of in the DNA?
To grossly oversimplify, the Marvel comic universe came about with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby working like madmen on multiple books every month and cross-selling fairly heavily.The self-conscious humor and slice of lifey bits in the MCU are also very 60s Marvel.
DC's most successful works historically tended to deviate from the status quo. The Batman tv series of the 60s, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, all took those characters in idiosyncratic directions. Marvel never really hit it quite like that.
posted by StarkRoads at 4:06 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
DC's most successful works historically tended to deviate from the status quo.
Christopher Reeve sits quietly in the corner feeling overlooked and despondent.
posted by hippybear at 4:34 PM on October 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Christopher Reeve sits quietly in the corner feeling overlooked and despondent.
posted by hippybear at 4:34 PM on October 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I loved the first Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy movies. They were fun scruffy characters on the periphery of the MCU. I loved them because they weren't that important. Then both series got more and more dour. I actively hated Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 was a bummer.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:41 PM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:41 PM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Donner Superman movies have the image that they've been running away from for decades! But sure were totally successful at the time. (with rapidly diminishing returns for iii and iv....)
posted by StarkRoads at 5:00 PM on October 12, 2023
posted by StarkRoads at 5:00 PM on October 12, 2023
My dream for the Gunn DC Universe is that he goes back to the 1960s Batman TV series for inspiration. A whole universe of wacky mayhem, terrible puns, primary colors and in-your-face graphics. Enlist the best standups you can find to write the dialog; hell, they can be the villains too. Think of how awesome it could be with all the advances that have been made in special effects, cinematography, and camp.
This is the reboot the world needs right now.
posted by MrVisible at 5:14 PM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is the reboot the world needs right now.
posted by MrVisible at 5:14 PM on October 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Overheard at the grocery story tonight, a propos of nothing:
"What are your top three movies?"
"Midsommar, Forrest Gump, and Clueless"
posted by StarkRoads at 6:38 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
"What are your top three movies?"
"Midsommar, Forrest Gump, and Clueless"
posted by StarkRoads at 6:38 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I feel like it's hard to trump Endgame and that's what the main problem is. Anything afterwards is anticlimactic.
mcu made a mistake trying do the multiverse storyline by continuing with the same characters after endgame. they shoulda gone the opposite way and started with a new slate (like FF/Xmen/whatever) living in a timeline that never had thanos. First we're introduced to a circumscribed set of characters dealing with their own timeline's problems, and eventually, after we have some level of investment in that world, it gets connected to the original timeline, but everything is still from the POV of the new slate of characters - suddenly they're in contact with a timeline peopled with overpowered freaks who took down an almost-literal god and fuck around with time on a whim. the original MCU characters are an existential threat to any other part of the multiverse they contact, and the new slate would treat them with maximum suspicion before yada yada yada everyone becomes friends and turns to defeating the real threat.
instead we get this doomed attempt to continue flaccid storylines that no one is particularly interested in - especially, it seems, the people creating the shows/movies/multi-tiered horizontally synergistic promotional materials.
posted by logicpunk at 12:21 PM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I enjoyed some of the post-"Endgame" MCU content well enough...but I didn't enjoy any of it enough to continue on trying to watch *all* of it. And gradually I stopped watching any of it.
It was fun while it lasted! But nothing lasts forever.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:39 PM on October 13, 2023
It was fun while it lasted! But nothing lasts forever.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:39 PM on October 13, 2023
The only MCU tv-series I'm interested in seeing more of is 'She Hulk'. Otherwise it all feels over-exposed and played-out (see also Star Wars if it isn't 'Andor').
Otherwise, get me more 'Lovecraft Country' and 'The Watchmen' tv-series.
posted by phigmov at 12:56 PM on October 13, 2023
Otherwise, get me more 'Lovecraft Country' and 'The Watchmen' tv-series.
posted by phigmov at 12:56 PM on October 13, 2023
I didn't get into the MCU until about 2015. I really enjoyed jumping in and catching up with almost everything I'd missed up to that point, and I was a faithful fan of the movies through Endgame. I watched all of the Netflix series for at least one season each (well, I skipped Iron Fist because of the scathing reviews; my favorite shows were Daredevil and the first season of Jessica Jones). I also watched five or six seasons of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and loved it (never finished, though). I liked that while the Netflix shows had overlapping characters, the plots weren't so intertwined that you felt that you HAD to watch them all.
Then Marvel started releasing the Disney+ series, which I was initially excited about but stopped watching after Loki, WandaVision, and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Once Marvel started churning them out and appeared to value quantity over quality, I lost interest. It shouldn't feel like a chore to watch new content! It turned into googling "Do I need to watch [a particular Disney+ series] before watching [a particular movie]?" I'd rather read Stucky fanfic...
On the other hand, I've made sure to see all the movies (sans Eternals) since Endgame, because those are still can't-miss for me. For one, each is a 2- to 2.5-hour commitment rather than hours of a series that may or may not be that good.
None of the Disney+ shows have measured up to Netflix's Daredevil to me, by far, and I'm a bit worried about the upcoming one on Disney+.
posted by trillian at 3:24 PM on October 13, 2023
Then Marvel started releasing the Disney+ series, which I was initially excited about but stopped watching after Loki, WandaVision, and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Once Marvel started churning them out and appeared to value quantity over quality, I lost interest. It shouldn't feel like a chore to watch new content! It turned into googling "Do I need to watch [a particular Disney+ series] before watching [a particular movie]?" I'd rather read Stucky fanfic...
On the other hand, I've made sure to see all the movies (sans Eternals) since Endgame, because those are still can't-miss for me. For one, each is a 2- to 2.5-hour commitment rather than hours of a series that may or may not be that good.
None of the Disney+ shows have measured up to Netflix's Daredevil to me, by far, and I'm a bit worried about the upcoming one on Disney+.
posted by trillian at 3:24 PM on October 13, 2023
The biggest issue for Disney+ MCU is that theatrical feature MCU is still struggling to figure out what things they have committed to do - X-Men, Fantastic Four and (new) Avengers - are supposed to be, and even greater uncertainty about Spidey, Thor, Dr. Strange, Shang Chi, and Guardians of the Galaxy ... and in the meantime they won't let the Disney+ creative teams do anything that might tie their hands.
posted by MattD at 6:53 AM on October 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 6:53 AM on October 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
My dream for the Gunn DC Universe is that he goes back to the 1960s Batman TV series for inspiration.
I grew up on the '60s Batman and am heartily tired of all the dour grimdark modern movies.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:26 AM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I grew up on the '60s Batman and am heartily tired of all the dour grimdark modern movies.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:26 AM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Okay. I gave the first episode of Loki Season 2 a try. I told myself that if one thing happens or if Loki says or does one thing that makes this a story about Loki, something where you could not use the exact same script but make the main character Ant Man or Black Widow, then I'd keep watching.
I will not be watching any further.
posted by straight at 12:11 PM on October 16, 2023
I will not be watching any further.
posted by straight at 12:11 PM on October 16, 2023
I mean, the real joy of Loki isn't the story, it's watching Hiddleston and Wilson play off each other.
Someone should create an entire movie that features those two that isn't a superhero movie. Some kind of light farce where there can be a lot of witty banter in the dialogue.
posted by hippybear at 12:16 PM on October 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Someone should create an entire movie that features those two that isn't a superhero movie. Some kind of light farce where there can be a lot of witty banter in the dialogue.
posted by hippybear at 12:16 PM on October 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
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I mean, it's 2023. This lesson is obvious to everyone right now. I guess except to the people at Disney.
posted by hippybear at 1:04 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]