New York is not just NYC
January 16, 2024 7:34 AM Subscribe
New York State isn't just The Big Apple and far-right extremist groups are common in many rural areas. North Country Public Radio takes a look at the various extremist groups that are thriving in areas far the the NYC metro area. This story is part of their podcast on far-right extremism called 'If All Else Fails.'
I’m most familiar with Clinton County, up near the border and across Lake Champlain from Burlington. There are Trump flag encrusted houses and trucks around, but not significantly more than in the southeast corner of Massachusetts where I live. The various kinds of creepy goons enumerated in the piece are everywhere, even in the supposedly liberal places where they are way outnumbered. I think the great unknown is if it is a ‘critical mass’ thing which snowballs as they become more active and visible — if it is we may be in deep shit everywhere.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 8:51 AM on January 16 [13 favorites]
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 8:51 AM on January 16 [13 favorites]
Thanks for posting this. If you look at a 2020 map of election results New York, it's clear that most of New York is in the red, including Staten Island and most of Long Island.
I live in northern Westchester County, only an hour north of Grand Central, and see plenty of signs of extremist activity, or at least support: hand-painted Trump signs, coal rolling, various bumper stickers (QAnon, thin blue line, Trump, AR-15, Punisher, etc.), Trump flags on trucks, yards, and biker bars, and occasional demonstrations around election day.
New York City is the Austin of New York State at this point.
posted by swift at 8:52 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
I live in northern Westchester County, only an hour north of Grand Central, and see plenty of signs of extremist activity, or at least support: hand-painted Trump signs, coal rolling, various bumper stickers (QAnon, thin blue line, Trump, AR-15, Punisher, etc.), Trump flags on trucks, yards, and biker bars, and occasional demonstrations around election day.
New York City is the Austin of New York State at this point.
posted by swift at 8:52 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
it's clear that most of New York is in the red
By country perhaps, but certainly not by population. As with many states the majority of the population is centered around a few dense areas.
Biden won New York state 60.87% to 37.74%.
But yeah, rural areas tend to be where you find the Trump signs painted on the sides of barns...
(On preview: If you look at that voting by county map, you'll see that many of the "red" counties are still like 55/45, 60/40, don't discount the large minorities in those counties voting blue)
posted by gwint at 8:58 AM on January 16 [22 favorites]
By country perhaps, but certainly not by population. As with many states the majority of the population is centered around a few dense areas.
Biden won New York state 60.87% to 37.74%.
But yeah, rural areas tend to be where you find the Trump signs painted on the sides of barns...
(On preview: If you look at that voting by county map, you'll see that many of the "red" counties are still like 55/45, 60/40, don't discount the large minorities in those counties voting blue)
posted by gwint at 8:58 AM on January 16 [22 favorites]
In general, excepting the urban areas of upstate NY, this is pretty much the truth. This is why Stephanik is so popular as a voice for the far right. I can spit from where I am sitting right now to three homes where there reside three families who are not college educated and have not served in the military. One of them had a "Fuck Biden" in his window for a while around the mid terms. So yes, upstate NY including tony Saratoga Springs are bastions of Republican right wing mania.
posted by DJZouke at 8:58 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by DJZouke at 8:58 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
There has been a rightwards shift over the past 25 years for sure though. Look at the 2000 results.
posted by gwint at 9:04 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by gwint at 9:04 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
I moved to NYC about 17 years ago (from Texas) and spent most of my first few years here in the blissful bubble of Brooklyn. Weekend trips to the beach or up the Hudson Valley or to the mountains were just full of cute little touristy towns and Sleepy Hollow style colonial kitsch.
Now I leave the city and it is just Trumpy as fuck everywhere I go. I don't know if it's really more than it used to be, or if I am just more aware of it now that I have been here a while. The more richy rich places on Long Island (Hamptons, Montauk) are suffering from some serious cognitive dissonance / friction where the wealthy rub up against the rural punisher-sticker crowd.
COVID was a real inflection point. Lots of city folks relocated to their second homes semi-permanently and there was a strong "keep your dirty city germs out of our clean towns" vibe. The resentment had always been there but somehow the mask really came off right about then.
posted by bgribble at 9:05 AM on January 16 [9 favorites]
Now I leave the city and it is just Trumpy as fuck everywhere I go. I don't know if it's really more than it used to be, or if I am just more aware of it now that I have been here a while. The more richy rich places on Long Island (Hamptons, Montauk) are suffering from some serious cognitive dissonance / friction where the wealthy rub up against the rural punisher-sticker crowd.
COVID was a real inflection point. Lots of city folks relocated to their second homes semi-permanently and there was a strong "keep your dirty city germs out of our clean towns" vibe. The resentment had always been there but somehow the mask really came off right about then.
posted by bgribble at 9:05 AM on January 16 [9 favorites]
Land doesn’t vote. People do. Most of NYS, land-wise, is rural. Most of the places that went for Biden are the population centers of the state.
posted by kat518 at 9:18 AM on January 16 [11 favorites]
posted by kat518 at 9:18 AM on January 16 [11 favorites]
Something like 50% of the population of New York State resides in the NYC metropolitan area. The North Country is home to around 2% of the NYS population, and is declining by more than 2.5% per year. It's more than 85% white. Average education and income levels are low. It's no wonder it's Trumpistan up there. The North Country is the kind of area with the sort of people most attracted to this rhetoric. Trump, and to a great extent the GOP in general, has successfully leveraged an electoral system that advantages low population areas over high population areas. Now it's just the Rural Strategy instead of the Southern Strategy.
posted by slkinsey at 9:26 AM on January 16 [8 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 9:26 AM on January 16 [8 favorites]
There has been a rightwards shift over the past 25 years for sure though. Look at the 2000 results.
The only differences that matter between those two graphs are Staten Island and Suffolk
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:40 AM on January 16
The only differences that matter between those two graphs are Staten Island and Suffolk
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:40 AM on January 16
North Country is full of rust belt towns that never recovered from the gutting of their industrial base. Except around the colleges, it’s no surprise that Trumpism is playing well there. It’s just a shock for people who think NYS= NYC.
posted by dr_dank at 9:52 AM on January 16 [3 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 9:52 AM on January 16 [3 favorites]
I'm from upstate NY near Albany. The urban/rural splits here are not entirely straightforwardly by county, either, so a precinct-level map shows the delineations more clearly - see the detailed map from the NY Times for a clearer picture.
And yes, NY is not all NYC but upstate by population is also not all rural either, upstate cities do exist and have people in them who vote majority Democratic. However, because upstate cities are small relative to NYC, it's easy to drive from a deep-blue area to a red area in under 30 minutes.
The locations mentioned in the article that I'm personally familiar with (Ballston Spa, Waterford, Malta in Saratoga County) are smaller towns or villages that are either blue or light red on the 2020 map, but are very close to significantly redder and more rural areas. Thus it feeling surprising, but more surprising than it should be when one thinks about it, to encounter organized right-wing extremism as the article describes.
posted by beryllium at 10:03 AM on January 16 [8 favorites]
And yes, NY is not all NYC but upstate by population is also not all rural either, upstate cities do exist and have people in them who vote majority Democratic. However, because upstate cities are small relative to NYC, it's easy to drive from a deep-blue area to a red area in under 30 minutes.
The locations mentioned in the article that I'm personally familiar with (Ballston Spa, Waterford, Malta in Saratoga County) are smaller towns or villages that are either blue or light red on the 2020 map, but are very close to significantly redder and more rural areas. Thus it feeling surprising, but more surprising than it should be when one thinks about it, to encounter organized right-wing extremism as the article describes.
posted by beryllium at 10:03 AM on January 16 [8 favorites]
That's just how it is everywhere in America.
Urban areas are Democratic and mostly livable and kind of liberal.
Suburban areas are split, mostly kind of tolerable, and vaguely not entirely awful.
Exurban and rural areas are Republican and should be avoided by any minority if at all possible because they're dominated by MAGA cultists.
The old joke goes "anywhere outside New York City is Alabama."
posted by sotonohito at 10:08 AM on January 16 [14 favorites]
Urban areas are Democratic and mostly livable and kind of liberal.
Suburban areas are split, mostly kind of tolerable, and vaguely not entirely awful.
Exurban and rural areas are Republican and should be avoided by any minority if at all possible because they're dominated by MAGA cultists.
The old joke goes "anywhere outside New York City is Alabama."
posted by sotonohito at 10:08 AM on January 16 [14 favorites]
We have a saying in NYS: the further north you go, the further south you are.
But pay attention to the suburbs-for-Trump, because that’s where his monied supporters live and vote in high numbers. And beware your assumptions about suburban Democrats - in my county, they ran a Trump supporter for Sheriff on the Democratic ticket. As long as they keep vilifying progressivs and “seeking common ground” with Republicans, it’s just wash, rinse and repeat on our current nightmare.
posted by vitabellosi at 11:08 AM on January 16 [10 favorites]
But pay attention to the suburbs-for-Trump, because that’s where his monied supporters live and vote in high numbers. And beware your assumptions about suburban Democrats - in my county, they ran a Trump supporter for Sheriff on the Democratic ticket. As long as they keep vilifying progressivs and “seeking common ground” with Republicans, it’s just wash, rinse and repeat on our current nightmare.
posted by vitabellosi at 11:08 AM on January 16 [10 favorites]
Albany and its surrounding areas are certainly nothing like Alabama. This area is fast becoming a haven for the trans community, due to its combination of excellent vibes and not-quite-completely-insane home prices. As a neighbor (hi there!!) said upthread, this is kind of *why* it's so surprising to see hard right recruitment becoming a phenomenon in Saratoga, Wilton, Glens Falls, etc. I don't think any fellow upstaters have ever been sanguine about rural white communities around here, but gosh, the capital region has always been a leftie kind of place. We used to have one of the country's best Free Schools (i.e. Unschool?), our local FNB is very active, there's a huge Poor People's Campaign wing around here, so many immigrant and refugee-oriented nonprofits, a thriving mutual aid community, etc etc etc etc. I know because I volunteer for many of them myself, and I've lived in places around this country (Pittsfield, MA for example, and on the outskirts of PA, and in Delaware) where none of this used to exist.
posted by MiraK at 11:27 AM on January 16 [17 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 11:27 AM on January 16 [17 favorites]
(the outskirts of Philly, I mean)
posted by MiraK at 11:33 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by MiraK at 11:33 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Land doesn’t vote. People do.
In the USA, when voting for President, electors vote, as a proxy for "states".
People vote, or try to vote, but in many cases are prevented from doing so or their votes go uncounted. In most cases their ballots lack desirable options.
Republican attacks on voting have been very successful, and American elections at state level and higher cannot be shown to reflect the will of the people who were eligible to vote. Instead centrists constantly blame such folks for "failing" or "refusing" or "not bothering" to vote. Meanwhile the options on the ballot are "smug grifter" and "violent psychopath who loudly and personally hates you". The choice may be obvious to most, yet so many disagree. Funny how that works i guess
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:54 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
In the USA, when voting for President, electors vote, as a proxy for "states".
People vote, or try to vote, but in many cases are prevented from doing so or their votes go uncounted. In most cases their ballots lack desirable options.
Republican attacks on voting have been very successful, and American elections at state level and higher cannot be shown to reflect the will of the people who were eligible to vote. Instead centrists constantly blame such folks for "failing" or "refusing" or "not bothering" to vote. Meanwhile the options on the ballot are "smug grifter" and "violent psychopath who loudly and personally hates you". The choice may be obvious to most, yet so many disagree. Funny how that works i guess
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:54 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
Land doesn’t vote. People do.
That's a fair argument when confronting those US maps with huge chunks of red, but it other ways it's not true. There's the EC as mentioned above, but legislatures are made of districts based on physical maps, and when those districts are drawn, the map makes a huge difference.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 12:11 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
That's a fair argument when confronting those US maps with huge chunks of red, but it other ways it's not true. There's the EC as mentioned above, but legislatures are made of districts based on physical maps, and when those districts are drawn, the map makes a huge difference.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 12:11 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
That 270 number is going to be very close. Too close for my liking and I am sure for many others.
posted by DJZouke at 12:34 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 12:34 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
“Located in the part of New York State that has Conferederate flags” was a ca. 2019 SNL laugh line.
posted by migurski at 3:14 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
posted by migurski at 3:14 PM on January 16 [2 favorites]
Hell, there are pockets of BROOKLYN where you can see Trump flags.
The problem isn't WHERE fascists LIVE. The problem is that they are active PERIOD.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:28 PM on January 16 [9 favorites]
The problem isn't WHERE fascists LIVE. The problem is that they are active PERIOD.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:28 PM on January 16 [9 favorites]
My corner of Ontario isn't much different. My hometown (pop. 75,000) was in one of the furthest right-voting ridings in the last federal election but culturally and politically, compared to the rural areas and small towns surrounding it, it's Paris. Drive 15 minutes out of town and you'll see people with Confederate flags displayed in their front lawns, trucks with openly racist/homophobic bumper stickers, F*CK TRUDEAU shit all over the place, etc..
I'm assuming it's still there as it was: On a main road heading towards Bancroft where my fam took a fun vacation this past summer, there's this cabin draped in Canadian flags and crowned with a F*CK TRUDEAU banner.
It's so bizarre, very hard to forget,
posted by JoeXIII007 at 7:38 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
I'm assuming it's still there as it was: On a main road heading towards Bancroft where my fam took a fun vacation this past summer, there's this cabin draped in Canadian flags and crowned with a F*CK TRUDEAU banner.
It's so bizarre, very hard to forget,
posted by JoeXIII007 at 7:38 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Instead centrists constantly blame such folks for "failing" or "refusing" or "not bothering" to vote. Meanwhile the options on the ballot are "smug grifter" and "violent psychopath who loudly and personally hates you".
"Centrists" is not the slam you think it is. The use of "centrist" reveals more about you than about the people saying others aren't bothering to vote. Mostly, that you're one of those people who thinks that because 5% or so of the electorate shares your opinions, you should be catered to in national two-party elections.
And "smug grifter" for Biden? There are plenty of things I (not a "centrist", an actual socialist who votes straight Dem because my responsibility to others is more important than my boutique ideals or my fee-fees) might critique Biden for—primarily, too much deference to systems that no longer function—but he's except for maybe Jimmy Carter the least smug President of my long lifetime. He's also one of the least concerned about personally profiting from the office.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:42 AM on January 17 [10 favorites]
"Centrists" is not the slam you think it is. The use of "centrist" reveals more about you than about the people saying others aren't bothering to vote. Mostly, that you're one of those people who thinks that because 5% or so of the electorate shares your opinions, you should be catered to in national two-party elections.
And "smug grifter" for Biden? There are plenty of things I (not a "centrist", an actual socialist who votes straight Dem because my responsibility to others is more important than my boutique ideals or my fee-fees) might critique Biden for—primarily, too much deference to systems that no longer function—but he's except for maybe Jimmy Carter the least smug President of my long lifetime. He's also one of the least concerned about personally profiting from the office.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:42 AM on January 17 [10 favorites]
I don't actually care about the personality of elected or appointed officials. What matters is policy and governance, and the present Democratic Party has not inspired me much these days. Hochul is asking for millions of dollars to combat retail theft when the shoplifting wave coverage in 2023 was revealed to be an astroturfed campaign. Unfortunately, we keep getting these centrist Dems in power that increase police funding and act like passing the New York Health Act is somehow impossible. People die from those actions, but we're not allowed to critique their policies because it's the "best we can do," even in a "Blue" state.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 10:30 AM on January 17 [2 favorites]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 10:30 AM on January 17 [2 favorites]
smug grifter
What matters is policy and governance, and the present Democratic Party has not inspired me much these days
I guess we're going to get a lot of these on this website between now and November?
I think it's really hard not to focus on personality and the horserace quality of politics, since that's so often the way it is presented in media, as well as experienced on an emotional level. If we really focused on policy wins, Biden would be ahead of any Democratic president in recent memory.
posted by gwint at 7:56 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
What matters is policy and governance, and the present Democratic Party has not inspired me much these days
I guess we're going to get a lot of these on this website between now and November?
I think it's really hard not to focus on personality and the horserace quality of politics, since that's so often the way it is presented in media, as well as experienced on an emotional level. If we really focused on policy wins, Biden would be ahead of any Democratic president in recent memory.
posted by gwint at 7:56 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
I guess we're going to get a lot of these on this website between now and November?
I mean, what do you want here? I'm a socialist that wants to see the entire capitalist system ripped out and replaced by common ownership of the means of production. You don't really want me to come on here and cheerlead the Democratic Party for not being Republicans? Do you think this place is made to jazz up the electorate to vote for Biden? I didn't even mention him but mentioned what a centrist Democrat in a blue state is doing right now, my state in fact. Am I not allowed to express critique towards Hochul?
Like, what do you want here?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:22 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
I mean, what do you want here? I'm a socialist that wants to see the entire capitalist system ripped out and replaced by common ownership of the means of production. You don't really want me to come on here and cheerlead the Democratic Party for not being Republicans? Do you think this place is made to jazz up the electorate to vote for Biden? I didn't even mention him but mentioned what a centrist Democrat in a blue state is doing right now, my state in fact. Am I not allowed to express critique towards Hochul?
Like, what do you want here?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:22 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Comment removed at poster's request.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:44 AM on January 20
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:44 AM on January 20
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