It’s peculiar, in the sense that words are supposed to mean something
April 23, 2024 1:53 AM Subscribe
The Caesar’s mission creep toward absurdity began long before the tequila and the fava beans. In fact, it has been going on for decades—first slowly, then quickly, swept along by and reflective of many of the biggest shifts in American dining. from Something Weird Is Happening With Caesar Salads [The Atlantic; ungated]
Besides, the more you learn about Caesar salads, the more you come to realize that pedantry is useless.
This is a weird article, in the way that all "you thought this was an absolute but in fact there is a lot of variety in the world" articles are always weird, because there are no absolutes and there is in fact a lot of variety in the world.
Anchovies or not, - and give them a try, seriously - learning how to make a good Caesar salad dressing as a base, then making it your own somehow, is a great personal skill. For my own part, I like adding an equal part roasted garlic, egg yolk and olive oil rather than the sometimes-recommended prepared mayo, whose adherents are misguided, and choosing an interesting mustard will rarely lead you amiss.
It's hard to go wrong with this as a base dressing on lettuce plus almost anything, once you've got one of these you like, and they're pretty easy to assemble quickly.
Try fried tofu instead of croutons, or in addition to croutons, or who cares. Put some salt and pepper on tomato wedges and throw them in there. Use mixes of different lettuce, toss some raddiccio in there, do anything you want. Steak Caesars are Good Actually. Just about any Caesar is Good Actually.
There are no rules. Nobody can stop you. Dry your lettuce thoroughly after you wash it though. Ballpark mustard doesn't work.
posted by mhoye at 5:12 AM on April 23 [32 favorites]
This is a weird article, in the way that all "you thought this was an absolute but in fact there is a lot of variety in the world" articles are always weird, because there are no absolutes and there is in fact a lot of variety in the world.
Anchovies or not, - and give them a try, seriously - learning how to make a good Caesar salad dressing as a base, then making it your own somehow, is a great personal skill. For my own part, I like adding an equal part roasted garlic, egg yolk and olive oil rather than the sometimes-recommended prepared mayo, whose adherents are misguided, and choosing an interesting mustard will rarely lead you amiss.
It's hard to go wrong with this as a base dressing on lettuce plus almost anything, once you've got one of these you like, and they're pretty easy to assemble quickly.
Try fried tofu instead of croutons, or in addition to croutons, or who cares. Put some salt and pepper on tomato wedges and throw them in there. Use mixes of different lettuce, toss some raddiccio in there, do anything you want. Steak Caesars are Good Actually. Just about any Caesar is Good Actually.
There are no rules. Nobody can stop you. Dry your lettuce thoroughly after you wash it though. Ballpark mustard doesn't work.
posted by mhoye at 5:12 AM on April 23 [32 favorites]
I make mine without any vegetables. People have called it a steak, but what do they know?
posted by pipeski at 5:25 AM on April 23 [30 favorites]
posted by pipeski at 5:25 AM on April 23 [30 favorites]
I like all kinds of Caesars. I prefer if a restaurant is stretching the definition that they call it out in some way. Even just adding to the name will give me a heads up, like the local BBQ place. It has a "Lonestar Caesar" that has fried tortilla strips, corn salsa, and a chipotle aioli dressing that is tasty but would be disappointing if I was expecting a standard Caesar (the dressing tastes more like ranch to me).
posted by ghost phoneme at 5:27 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by ghost phoneme at 5:27 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
The Caesar Salad of Theseus, obviously.
posted by gauche at 5:30 AM on April 23 [32 favorites]
posted by gauche at 5:30 AM on April 23 [32 favorites]
CSI: Mission Creep
posted by AlSweigart at 5:31 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 5:31 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
The Caesar Salad of Theseus, obviously
So much so that it’s in the article.
So much so that it’s in the article.
Ancient philosophers were bedeviled by the question of whether the ship of Theseus retained its fundamental essence after each of its component parts was replaced one by one over the course of centuries. I’ve been thinking about salads for a few weeks now and feel pretty sure that a true Caesar requires, at minimum, garlic, acid, umami, cold leaves, hard cheese, and a crunchy, croutonlike product. Beyond that, you can get away with one or maybe two wacky additions before you start straining the limits of credibility. It’s about principle, not pedantry.posted by zamboni at 5:36 AM on April 23 [16 favorites]
when did the Atlantic become Nothing Should Ever Change Magazine?
posted by rishabguha at 5:50 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
posted by rishabguha at 5:50 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
Perhaps you'd enjoy our chef's nontraditional interpretation of the classic "BLT," crafted from the finest peanut butter and grape jelly.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:05 AM on April 23 [23 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:05 AM on April 23 [23 favorites]
Periodic, though off-topic, reminder that The Atlantic is edited by David Frum, who is implicated in war crimes committed by the regime of George W Bush.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:16 AM on April 23 [33 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:16 AM on April 23 [33 favorites]
I mean, actually it's not peculiar; what is peculiar and straight up "invention of tradition" stuff is the belief that there are pure, unchanging recipes handed on since the dawn of time, especially for widely eaten foods. If you tell me that su filindeu has been made the same way for hundreds of years, I'll believe you, but if you tell me that the spaghetti and meatballs of 1950s Minneapolis are the same as the spaghetti and meatballs of today, I won't.
The article even admits this at the end! But it's not outrage bait unless it's "why are people doing it WRONG".
Even in places where there's some kind of legal control on what can be called champagne or brie, etc, it's obvious that most of the time there's culinary drift or they wouldn't need the laws. And while I guess we could have a kind of gastro-Camazotz where they haul you off for reprogramming if you put the wrong thing in your salad, that would be expensive and not very fun. A better job creation scheme than the military, maybe.
In a way this kind of drift is unfortunate because we all love the first version of something that we fell in love with - I'm a great one for old-fashioned cakes and cookies that people often find too plain today, for instance. But
posted by Frowner at 6:41 AM on April 23 [9 favorites]
The article even admits this at the end! But it's not outrage bait unless it's "why are people doing it WRONG".
Even in places where there's some kind of legal control on what can be called champagne or brie, etc, it's obvious that most of the time there's culinary drift or they wouldn't need the laws. And while I guess we could have a kind of gastro-Camazotz where they haul you off for reprogramming if you put the wrong thing in your salad, that would be expensive and not very fun. A better job creation scheme than the military, maybe.
In a way this kind of drift is unfortunate because we all love the first version of something that we fell in love with - I'm a great one for old-fashioned cakes and cookies that people often find too plain today, for instance. But
posted by Frowner at 6:41 AM on April 23 [9 favorites]
As Dr Johnson said:
Those who have been persuaded to think well of my Caesar recipe, require that it should fix the dish, and put a stop to those alterations which time and chance have hitherto been suffered to make in it without opposition. With this consequence I will confess that I flattered myself for a while; but now begin to fear that I have indulged expectation which neither reason nor experience can justify. When we see men grow old and die at a certain time one after another, from century to century, we laugh at the elixir that promises to prolong life to a thousand years; and with equal justice may the cook be derided, who being able to produce no example of a nation that has preserved their ingredients and methods from mutability, shall imagine that his recipes can embalm his cuisine, and secure it from corruption and decay, that it is in his power to change sublunary nature, or clear the world at once from folly, vanity, and affectation.
posted by Phanx at 6:56 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]
Those who have been persuaded to think well of my Caesar recipe, require that it should fix the dish, and put a stop to those alterations which time and chance have hitherto been suffered to make in it without opposition. With this consequence I will confess that I flattered myself for a while; but now begin to fear that I have indulged expectation which neither reason nor experience can justify. When we see men grow old and die at a certain time one after another, from century to century, we laugh at the elixir that promises to prolong life to a thousand years; and with equal justice may the cook be derided, who being able to produce no example of a nation that has preserved their ingredients and methods from mutability, shall imagine that his recipes can embalm his cuisine, and secure it from corruption and decay, that it is in his power to change sublunary nature, or clear the world at once from folly, vanity, and affectation.
posted by Phanx at 6:56 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]
I don't have any objection to coming up with new salad recipes but if it's a Caesar and you don't even use anchovies then I don't know what the world has come to. This is not that! Call it whatever you want. Call it a Pompey, call it a Mark Antony, call it Cleopatra, just don't call it a Caesar.
posted by dis_integration at 6:57 AM on April 23 [12 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:57 AM on April 23 [12 favorites]
Periodic, though off-topic, reminder that The Atlantic is edited by David Frum, who is implicated in war crimes committed by the regime of George W Bush.Frum is a staff writer, I believe; at least according to the current masthead. The editor in chief of the magazine for the last 8 years is Jeffrey Goldberg, formerly of The New Yorker.
when did the Atlantic become Nothing Should Ever Change Magazine?They also just published an article raving about a sports movie polycule -- standard of traditional relationships that.
In summary, the Atlantic is a land of milquetoast contrasts.
But, I mean, we're talking about Caesar salad here. An ex of mine gave me a formula that I use for all of my salads - "something crunchy + something creamy + something acid + something green + something umami" and that formula came back as the article talked about the essential elements of a Caesar. It's basically what you need for a good salad; and I'm kind of fine with "a Caesar" being shorthand for a reliable salad with all of its essential elements.
posted by bl1nk at 7:01 AM on April 23 [14 favorites]
The trouble is that words do mean things but not the same things from place to place and time to time, so communication is always a moving target. Not a new thought, I know. I personally had no idea that one would put steak in a caesar salad.
You know what I like? A salade nicoise, except that the first time I had one it was from a fancy coop and had salmon, no anchovies and as I recall, no tomatoes, and it was dressed with some kind of garlic dressing. For me, the only old and original nicoise, for others - heresy!
posted by Frowner at 7:11 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
You know what I like? A salade nicoise, except that the first time I had one it was from a fancy coop and had salmon, no anchovies and as I recall, no tomatoes, and it was dressed with some kind of garlic dressing. For me, the only old and original nicoise, for others - heresy!
posted by Frowner at 7:11 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
But… it isn’t. A Caesar Salad isn’t a method or a template; it’s a dish. You should not have to interrogate the waiter or parse a menu to know what you’re getting. If the only place you can get them is fusty Italian places and steak houses, that’s fine. You want to innovate, great; give it a new name, and the description can be “think Caesar, but with kale, poached duck eggs, no fish, and bagel bites instead of croutons.” It’s like if I order a dirty gin martini, I don’t expect to get something with red vermouth and pickled pepper brine because the bartender was feeling frisky.
Innovation and fusion is super-great in food, even though a lot of chefs are addicted to putting one too many ingredients in dishes, but there should be a place for classics, too.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:13 AM on April 23 [34 favorites]
Innovation and fusion is super-great in food, even though a lot of chefs are addicted to putting one too many ingredients in dishes, but there should be a place for classics, too.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:13 AM on April 23 [34 favorites]
I'm relatively conservative when it comes to Caesar salads, so I don't think that I'd be happy with a lot of the ones mentioned in the article, if I was just told "caesar salad." I do read the ingredient list, so hopefully I'd be forewarned what I was getting. (Not always. The last salad that disappointed me promised roasted beets. I was expecting something warm. No. They were straight from the fridge. Also, it desperately needed more cheese and nuts.)
posted by Spike Glee at 7:15 AM on April 23 [7 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 7:15 AM on April 23 [7 favorites]
I'm on team if you're going to put an classic item on a restaurant menu without further description, it better be what a person would expect.
There's no problem with changing recipes / techniques just be upfront about it and nobody will be upset.
From the article....
Last week, I called up Stewart Gary, the culinary director of Nitehawk Cinema, the Brooklyn dine-in movie theater where I ordered that almond-and-pickled-onion salad. He told me essentially the same thing: In his line of work, people have limited time with the menu, and Caesar is a useful signifier. “Look,” he said. “If we called it a kale salad with anchovy dressing, no one would order it.”
Well if nobody wants to eat your kale salad, don't put a kale salad on the menu and lie about it, you dumb fuck. Go have kids if you enjoy tricking people into eating greens that much.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:21 AM on April 23 [36 favorites]
There's no problem with changing recipes / techniques just be upfront about it and nobody will be upset.
From the article....
Last week, I called up Stewart Gary, the culinary director of Nitehawk Cinema, the Brooklyn dine-in movie theater where I ordered that almond-and-pickled-onion salad. He told me essentially the same thing: In his line of work, people have limited time with the menu, and Caesar is a useful signifier. “Look,” he said. “If we called it a kale salad with anchovy dressing, no one would order it.”
Well if nobody wants to eat your kale salad, don't put a kale salad on the menu and lie about it, you dumb fuck. Go have kids if you enjoy tricking people into eating greens that much.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:21 AM on April 23 [36 favorites]
One of my favorite salads is served at a local restaurant, and I think it’s just called “Summer Salad.” They are clear that it’s not a recipe, it’s a method, and it will be different every day, depending on what they have. The dressing is mostly the same — creamy with a touch of acid, but the plate will have greens, something crunchy, something cooked, something pickled, and something fun (the latter is often edible flowers). When I order it, I always know what I’m getting but also always surprised (it helps that I trust this kitchen implicitly).
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:28 AM on April 23 [12 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:28 AM on April 23 [12 favorites]
Call it whatever you want ... just don't call it a Caesar.
If my grandmother had wheels...
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:33 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
If my grandmother had wheels...
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:33 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
Periodic, though off-topic, reminder that The Atlantic is edited by David Frum, who is implicated in war crimes committed by the regime of George W Bush.
The very littlest Caesars
posted by chavenet at 7:34 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
The very littlest Caesars
posted by chavenet at 7:34 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Do whatever you want but recognizing that people want to receive something within the range of their expectation. A Ceasar salad of kale is a "Kale Ceasar Salad" and should be warned of.
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:36 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:36 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
I'm the opposite of a foodie but I had a Caesar once that was basically just lettuce that bad been lit on fire. It tasted like a bush fire.
I figure if anything can be a Caesar, just bring me a hot dog and call it a Caesar. At least I'll know what to expect and probably won't be disappointed.
posted by klanawa at 7:58 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
I figure if anything can be a Caesar, just bring me a hot dog and call it a Caesar. At least I'll know what to expect and probably won't be disappointed.
posted by klanawa at 7:58 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Hi, I'm on Metafilter The Atlantic, and I can overthink a plate of salad.
posted by emelenjr at 7:58 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 7:58 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
This isn’t just a phenomenon of coastal fine dining. I took a slow road trip through rural eastern Oregon last year that started with a bizarre bacon-kale “Caesar” and then made a research project of ordering the Caesar at every restaurant we stopped at. Not one of the five contained anchovies. Most had cherry tomatoes. It was bizarre—these were steakhouses and diners in ranching towns with a thousand residents, not hubs of culinary innovation.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 8:01 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 8:01 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
I'm fine with variants of a Caesar salad but it has to be good. I take umbrage at this article calling the Caesar "a safe-bet salad". Because the basic recipe is so simple that there's nothing to hide behind and often the execution falls short.
The dressing better be good and strong flavored: the garlic and Worcestershire are not just suggestions, they are the flavor backbone of the dish. Something better taste like anchovies somewhere, either in the dressing or as whole filets. The croutons need to be fresh and generous. And good parmesan freshly shaved, with at pieces large enough to be identifiable.
I have been eating a lot of restaurant salads this last year. And so often they cut corners: the last $30 restaurant Caesar I had was a bland dressing, croutons from a bag, pre-grated parmesan that I suspect came from a green can. More generally so many salads in US restaurants are served with giant pieces of lettuce straight from the bag, not cut or torn into bite size pieces. And with dressing on the side where you are expected to awkwardly toss the salad yourself at the table? Or maybe pour it on top in the least appetizing way.
So sure, add some kale to my Caesar, or onion, or fava beans. Bacon sounds delicious! Just take some care and make it nice.
posted by Nelson at 8:02 AM on April 23 [9 favorites]
The dressing better be good and strong flavored: the garlic and Worcestershire are not just suggestions, they are the flavor backbone of the dish. Something better taste like anchovies somewhere, either in the dressing or as whole filets. The croutons need to be fresh and generous. And good parmesan freshly shaved, with at pieces large enough to be identifiable.
I have been eating a lot of restaurant salads this last year. And so often they cut corners: the last $30 restaurant Caesar I had was a bland dressing, croutons from a bag, pre-grated parmesan that I suspect came from a green can. More generally so many salads in US restaurants are served with giant pieces of lettuce straight from the bag, not cut or torn into bite size pieces. And with dressing on the side where you are expected to awkwardly toss the salad yourself at the table? Or maybe pour it on top in the least appetizing way.
So sure, add some kale to my Caesar, or onion, or fava beans. Bacon sounds delicious! Just take some care and make it nice.
posted by Nelson at 8:02 AM on April 23 [9 favorites]
Old woman yells at salad.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 8:25 AM on April 23 [12 favorites]
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 8:25 AM on April 23 [12 favorites]
tl;dr
"Any Salad Can Be A Caesar Salad (if you stab it enough)"
posted by lalochezia at 8:26 AM on April 23 [48 favorites]
"Any Salad Can Be A Caesar Salad (if you stab it enough)"
posted by lalochezia at 8:26 AM on April 23 [48 favorites]
Tableside prep of Caesar salad used to be a big thing. There was a place by me growing up (Allgauer's Northbrook) that did it and it was a special treat - and it was really really good. Nothing has really compared since.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:27 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:27 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Shouldn't a Caesar salad arrive with a knife? Shouldn't that be the definition? If you don't have to cut something in the salad, is it really a Caesar?
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:27 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:27 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
I looooove Caesar Salad, its one of my favs. and yes, a poorly made one is a cosmic disappointment. anchovies are a necessary item.
but yeah, you can wander off the menu and come up with some great riffs (if you do it right). thus:
my "Mexican" "Caesar" Salad
Romaine (or Kale works really well too)
a scoop of beans (I like black)
a scoop of pico de gallo
some avocado
some cotija cheese
and very important: homemade dressing with lavish amounts of garlic and anchovies AND some chipotles in adobo blended in (immersion blender is yr friend here)
and also very important: in lieu of crotons crack some fresh tortilla chips on that baby.
its soooooo good! is it a Caesar?? idk, idc.
posted by supermedusa at 8:34 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]
but yeah, you can wander off the menu and come up with some great riffs (if you do it right). thus:
my "Mexican" "Caesar" Salad
Romaine (or Kale works really well too)
a scoop of beans (I like black)
a scoop of pico de gallo
some avocado
some cotija cheese
and very important: homemade dressing with lavish amounts of garlic and anchovies AND some chipotles in adobo blended in (immersion blender is yr friend here)
and also very important: in lieu of crotons crack some fresh tortilla chips on that baby.
its soooooo good! is it a Caesar?? idk, idc.
posted by supermedusa at 8:34 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]
Seems like a gringo Caesar to me! Sounds delicious but the beans take it pretty far from what I'd expect in a Caesar. Also the original Caesar salad is already a Mexican salad, or at least a salad invented in Mexico by an Italian chef.
posted by Nelson at 8:37 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:37 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]
I think most folks are agreed here that while "is it a Casear" could comprehend an awfully wide variety, the idea of simply calling something a "Caesar salad" without further elaboration demands a reasonably fealty to an ordinary Caesar.
Like, I've had an absurd number of variations on eggs Benedict, and I've liked many of them. There are a lot of variations on bread+meat+poached eggs+thick sauce that work, and a seasoned breakfasteer can reasonably have encountered crab-cake Benedict, south-of-the-border Benedict, Sichuan Benedict, smoked salmon Benedict, keto Benedict, shrimp-and-grits Benedict, vegan Benedict, you name it. But if I see just "eggs Benedict" on the menu, and you bring me a poached-egg torta topped with chorizo, chili crema, and guacamole, I'm going to be surprised and disappointed, even if it is delicious and it is recognizably a variation on the basic Bennie formula. If you called than same thing a "Tex-Mex Benedict", I wouldn't get on my high-horse about purity.
posted by jackbishop at 8:54 AM on April 23 [18 favorites]
Like, I've had an absurd number of variations on eggs Benedict, and I've liked many of them. There are a lot of variations on bread+meat+poached eggs+thick sauce that work, and a seasoned breakfasteer can reasonably have encountered crab-cake Benedict, south-of-the-border Benedict, Sichuan Benedict, smoked salmon Benedict, keto Benedict, shrimp-and-grits Benedict, vegan Benedict, you name it. But if I see just "eggs Benedict" on the menu, and you bring me a poached-egg torta topped with chorizo, chili crema, and guacamole, I'm going to be surprised and disappointed, even if it is delicious and it is recognizably a variation on the basic Bennie formula. If you called than same thing a "Tex-Mex Benedict", I wouldn't get on my high-horse about purity.
posted by jackbishop at 8:54 AM on April 23 [18 favorites]
Reminds me of a place in Houston where my go-to in the summer was the gazpacho soup. It was exactly what you would expect from cold but well-seasoned blended veggies with plenty of garlic and olive oil. Early one summer shortly before I moved away I visited, ordered the gazpacho, and received a bowl of what appeared to be liquid watermelon jello with diced cucumber floating in it. No, thanks.
posted by Thysania at 8:59 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
posted by Thysania at 8:59 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Hi, I'm on Metafilter The Atlantic, and I can overthink a plate of salad.
beanplating caesarplating
et tu, faba?
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:00 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
et tu, faba?
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:00 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
The only true crime in the land of caesardom is when you order one and it comes swimming in some ghastly white creamy dressing from a jug and the leaves are semi-visible beneath. Otherwise, have at it but use your words. "Kale Caesar", sure - that gives me useful information, but a Caesar with kale billed just as a "Caesar" would be irksome.
And I have developed a habit of making my own dressing based off of BA's recipe and riffing from there. It's pretty much a vinaigrette dressed up with parm and anchovy paste. (pro-tip - keep a tube of anchovy paste in your fridge. it's a cheap stealth MSG provider)
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:20 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
And I have developed a habit of making my own dressing based off of BA's recipe and riffing from there. It's pretty much a vinaigrette dressed up with parm and anchovy paste. (pro-tip - keep a tube of anchovy paste in your fridge. it's a cheap stealth MSG provider)
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:20 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
why do people call something a caesar that isn't? It makes no sense. I like a kale salad, I like a lot of different salads, but I do not like to feel cheated. Why don't you tell me what it is?
posted by mumimor at 9:46 AM on April 23 [9 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 9:46 AM on April 23 [9 favorites]
someone thought they were so clever to "disrupt" the Caesar Salad market. and so we suffer...
posted by supermedusa at 10:00 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 10:00 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
I love that what starts the concern about the degradation of the salad is the ordering of a Kale Caesar. But this has been going on forever with food and drink. Look at the humble martini, people make it substituting in vodka and wrongly call it a martini, to say nothing of calling anything served in a cocktail glass a 'martini' and the rise of the martini bar. You're fighting against the tide.
posted by Carillon at 10:01 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 10:01 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
It was stated up above - words like Caesar convey some understanding of the flavor experience as a shorthand to the consumer. Modifying that wording then allows you to quickly communicate "It's a caesar dressed kale salad" for people not really looking to read/understand.
In the beer world, my beat, we see the same thing where "IPA" has become a shorthand to say "this is hoppy" instead of any other meaning. (The bastardization of a term like Caesar is nothing compared to that)
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:01 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
In the beer world, my beat, we see the same thing where "IPA" has become a shorthand to say "this is hoppy" instead of any other meaning. (The bastardization of a term like Caesar is nothing compared to that)
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:01 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
NB: Do not add hops to your Caesar.
posted by mittens at 10:29 AM on April 23 [7 favorites]
posted by mittens at 10:29 AM on April 23 [7 favorites]
It’s about principle, not pedantry.
The preservation of principle forever is pedantry; sic salad tyrannus.
posted by grokus at 10:31 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
The preservation of principle forever is pedantry; sic salad tyrannus.
posted by grokus at 10:31 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Even in places where there's some kind of legal control on what can be called champagne or brie, etc, it's obvious that most of the time there's culinary drift or they wouldn't need the laws.
I fully agree with you that culinary drift is a thing and that's fine, but on the specific issue of legal controls on naming, it's not really a question of culinary drift that's prompting the restriction. Rather, it's folks making similar-but-different products and using recognized place names as a way to get traction in the market, prompting concern from producers in the region that their cache will be eroded and their product's reputation cheapened.
posted by nickmark at 10:34 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
I fully agree with you that culinary drift is a thing and that's fine, but on the specific issue of legal controls on naming, it's not really a question of culinary drift that's prompting the restriction. Rather, it's folks making similar-but-different products and using recognized place names as a way to get traction in the market, prompting concern from producers in the region that their cache will be eroded and their product's reputation cheapened.
posted by nickmark at 10:34 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
It's even worse when I get a side salad and the bowl is like, sitting on its bottom.
posted by credulous at 10:37 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
posted by credulous at 10:37 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Names do have meaning. If you've swapped everything out for something else, it's no longer a Caesar salad. It's like the Ship of Theseus, only after you're done, it's a car. If it's not a ship, it's not the ship of Theseus.
Many years ago, we went to Red Robin. They had something BLT adjacent on the menu, so my wife tried ordering a BLT. After the third failed attempt, my wife started to cry, and a manager had to intervene. She eventually got a passable BLT, but there wasn't much glee that day.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:38 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
Many years ago, we went to Red Robin. They had something BLT adjacent on the menu, so my wife tried ordering a BLT. After the third failed attempt, my wife started to cry, and a manager had to intervene. She eventually got a passable BLT, but there wasn't much glee that day.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:38 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
anyway, in my experiments with making a caesar dressing, i've found that anchovy fish sauce tends to make up for some of the pungency that may be lacking when you have a disappointing anchovies, like from bellino
roasting wedges of romaine with a crème brûlée torch is fun too
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:38 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]
roasting wedges of romaine with a crème brûlée torch is fun too
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:38 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]
Periodic, though off-topic, reminder that The Atlantic is edited by David Frum, who is implicated in war crimes committed by the regime of George W Bush.
also it's institutionally transphobic, and it also happily published racism re: the bell curve
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:41 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]
also it's institutionally transphobic, and it also happily published racism re: the bell curve
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:41 AM on April 23 [4 favorites]
I'm a little surprised and disappointed we've gotten this far in discussing variations on Caesar salad without anyone referring to them collectively as "Caesarian salads" to be honest.
posted by nickmark at 10:44 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
posted by nickmark at 10:44 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
no salad of woman born shall harm macbeth
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:49 AM on April 23 [16 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:49 AM on April 23 [16 favorites]
When it comes to Caesar salads, render unto Metafilter.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:50 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:50 AM on April 23 [2 favorites]
My kid was a very picky eater as a younger child. She latched onto caesar salads a couple years ago as a rock of stability in a world of strange food.
Then her rock started breaking apart. She'd order a caesar at a place where it was the only thing on the menu that didn't ick her out, and out would come this challenging thing with, like, kale and onions and weird nuts and sauces on it.
As a parent who wants to see my kid eat more kinds of stuff, I'm all for it! Crush my kid's sense of security, cruel salad innovators!
posted by gurple at 10:53 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]
Then her rock started breaking apart. She'd order a caesar at a place where it was the only thing on the menu that didn't ick her out, and out would come this challenging thing with, like, kale and onions and weird nuts and sauces on it.
As a parent who wants to see my kid eat more kinds of stuff, I'm all for it! Crush my kid's sense of security, cruel salad innovators!
posted by gurple at 10:53 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]
It's even worse when I get a side salad and the bowl is like, sitting on its bottom.
how... how else do bowls sit?
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:58 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]
how... how else do bowls sit?
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:58 AM on April 23 [1 favorite]
Caesarian salad
is my Ministry cover band’s 2nd most popular album
posted by mubba at 11:08 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
is my Ministry cover band’s 2nd most popular album
posted by mubba at 11:08 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
no salad of woman born shall harm macbeth
This crouton was from its mother-loaf untimely rip'd!
posted by nickmark at 11:27 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]
This crouton was from its mother-loaf untimely rip'd!
posted by nickmark at 11:27 AM on April 23 [11 favorites]
If you see this as a cynical marketing ploy as opposed to some kind of artistic interpretation, it’s easier to see where dissatisfied customers are coming from.
posted by Selena777 at 11:31 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 11:31 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
I have an idea what a salad is and what a Caesar salad is. Restaurants can just use words on their menus if they want to make something like a Caesar salad that isn't actually one. I feel like the appropriate response to this is if you order a Caesar salad and get something else then just send it back to the kitchen.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:20 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:20 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Also since this conversation is very adjacent to the old philosophical question of "is a hot dog a sandwich?" it's an opportune time to reintroduce The Cube Rule (previously) and their take that due to the presence of croutons, a Caesar salad is actually classified as nachos.
posted by bl1nk at 2:46 PM on April 23 [4 favorites]
posted by bl1nk at 2:46 PM on April 23 [4 favorites]
why is it called a calzone when dumplings existed centuries before? cube rule has poor terminology
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:52 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:52 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
What's the best took for cutting pizza?
Little Caesar's
posted by avocet at 3:21 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
Little Caesar's
posted by avocet at 3:21 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
I mean it’s named after a guy. It’s not just a class of salads. Take “Lobster Thermidor” , which no one eats anymore. Imagine ordering it and it’s like, pork or something.
Related, I love bread pudding with vanilla ice cream and I ordered it a while back. It was chock full of pecans! I have eaten bread pudding many times and this was NOT COOL especially since the menu didn’t make that clear. I’m not allergic to nuts but hate almost any kind of nut in desserts, which is one reason I order bread pudding! They could have called it Nutty “Bread Pudding” and I’d have steered clear.
The missus says it’s not Caesar salad unless you rubbed the inside of a wooden bowl with a clove of garlic ….
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:28 PM on April 23 [6 favorites]
Related, I love bread pudding with vanilla ice cream and I ordered it a while back. It was chock full of pecans! I have eaten bread pudding many times and this was NOT COOL especially since the menu didn’t make that clear. I’m not allergic to nuts but hate almost any kind of nut in desserts, which is one reason I order bread pudding! They could have called it Nutty “Bread Pudding” and I’d have steered clear.
The missus says it’s not Caesar salad unless you rubbed the inside of a wooden bowl with a clove of garlic ….
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:28 PM on April 23 [6 favorites]
I mean it’s named after a guy. It’s not just a class of salads. Take “Lobster Thermidor” , which no one eats anymore. Imagine ordering it and it’s like, pork or something.
I know, right? I ordered a so-called "Caesar salad" once and they had the gall to throw *anchovies* in there. Who puts anchovies into a salad whose original construction, never to be altered, didn't have anchovies in it.
Naturally the well and proper time to freeze the definition of a food in place is the moment I personally have encountered it. Preferably when I was young and innocent, back when we all know music and all forms of human expression reached their most meaningful and should also be preserved. Unless I'm yearning for days I never experienced. *That's* when they knew what a Caesar was.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:37 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
I know, right? I ordered a so-called "Caesar salad" once and they had the gall to throw *anchovies* in there. Who puts anchovies into a salad whose original construction, never to be altered, didn't have anchovies in it.
Naturally the well and proper time to freeze the definition of a food in place is the moment I personally have encountered it. Preferably when I was young and innocent, back when we all know music and all forms of human expression reached their most meaningful and should also be preserved. Unless I'm yearning for days I never experienced. *That's* when they knew what a Caesar was.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:37 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
> Who puts anchovies into a salad whose original construction, never to be altered, didn't have anchovies in it.
My exhaustive research (one single google) reveals that the original recipe used Worcestershire sauce, which, and I'm requesting a drumroll for this, uses anchovies to achieve a deep umami flavor.
posted by dis_integration at 4:04 PM on April 23 [6 favorites]
My exhaustive research (one single google) reveals that the original recipe used Worcestershire sauce, which, and I'm requesting a drumroll for this, uses anchovies to achieve a deep umami flavor.
posted by dis_integration at 4:04 PM on April 23 [6 favorites]
the original recipe used Worcestershire sauce, which, and I'm requesting a drumroll for this, uses anchovies to achieve a deep umami flavor.
Worcestershire sauce also contains tamarind, but I'm guessing you'd have some questions if I served whole pickled tamarind fruit on top and claimed they were equivalent.
(I love whole anchovies in Caesar, and it'd be difficult to argue anchovies in some form aren't a component of the contemporary concept of the salad. But it's all arbitrary to say "This is the point that an item should be fixed in place")
posted by CrystalDave at 4:33 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Worcestershire sauce also contains tamarind, but I'm guessing you'd have some questions if I served whole pickled tamarind fruit on top and claimed they were equivalent.
(I love whole anchovies in Caesar, and it'd be difficult to argue anchovies in some form aren't a component of the contemporary concept of the salad. But it's all arbitrary to say "This is the point that an item should be fixed in place")
posted by CrystalDave at 4:33 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
These places are just making their own salad concoctions that have some tiny, basic connection to a Caesar and calling it a "Caesar." I think Caesar salad has become nearly shorthand for "salad that people who generally don't like salads will like."
I'd prefer more basic myself (and yes, I love it with anchovies) but some of these variations sound good. At this point "Caesar salad" means a salad with a strong, tangy, garlic dressing that is very crunchy and cold and probably has a lot of grated parmesan-similar cheese on it.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:40 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
I'd prefer more basic myself (and yes, I love it with anchovies) but some of these variations sound good. At this point "Caesar salad" means a salad with a strong, tangy, garlic dressing that is very crunchy and cold and probably has a lot of grated parmesan-similar cheese on it.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:40 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
TIL actual Caesar salad has anchovy. I can tell you this much - even in a region that's known to have anchovies (though ours are small) and fish sauce, I have never had in my life any Caesar salad with anchovy. Maybe in the fancy places... But I tend to not order it (on account of never seeing the big deal) so I don't notice it.
posted by cendawanita at 5:01 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:01 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
I figure “Caesar” just means a salad where the greens are generally darker than iceberg lettuce, which is what any other salad on the menu is likely to be made of.
posted by nickmark at 5:01 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by nickmark at 5:01 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
The fact that I've ordered Caesar salad once in my life is the reason I've never ordered it again. In 1997, my spouse and I took a delayed honeymoon trip to California. Because of my interest in beer and redwoods, we wound up in Boonville. We ate and stayed at the Boonville Hotel. I don't remember the circumstances that got me to order a Caesar salad, perhaps it was some kind of multi-course prix fixe thing and I needed to order a first course. It was seven leaves of romaine lettuce, coated with a nearly invisible dressing that blew my tastebuds away. I will never taste the like of it again, short of messing around with it myself, and I refuse to sully the memory.
posted by mollweide at 5:47 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 5:47 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Lobster Thermidor is a French dish of lobster meat cooked in a rich wine sauce, stuffed back into a lobster shell, and browned.
"...and bring us the finest food you got, stuffed with the second finest."
"Excellent sir. Lobster stuffed with tacos."
posted by kirkaracha at 7:02 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]
"...and bring us the finest food you got, stuffed with the second finest."
"Excellent sir. Lobster stuffed with tacos."
posted by kirkaracha at 7:02 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]
Well it has anchovy generally in the sense that it is emulsified in the dressing. I have seen a few places use actual anchovy fillets as well in the salad, but most places will put either Worcestershire sauce and anchovies, or just Worcestershire sauce alone.
posted by Carillon at 7:59 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 7:59 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
lalochezia: "Any Salad Can Be A Caesar Salad (if you stab it enough)"
Still, it'll only be a Caesar salad if your name is Brutus.
posted by Stoneshop at 9:18 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
Still, it'll only be a Caesar salad if your name is Brutus.
posted by Stoneshop at 9:18 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
I used the ungated link, and found it pretty hilarious when in the middle of the article it placed a video of a "crispy tater Caesar" that involved smashing tater tots.
posted by polymath at 10:52 PM on April 23 [4 favorites]
posted by polymath at 10:52 PM on April 23 [4 favorites]
I, should have had the salad minus mushrooms
according to rombauer and Becker if you add two tablespoons of crumbled blue cheese to a Caesar salad it becomes a western salad
foiurservings
posted by clavdivs at 11:04 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
according to rombauer and Becker if you add two tablespoons of crumbled blue cheese to a Caesar salad it becomes a western salad
foiurservings
posted by clavdivs at 11:04 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
This is the most /r/iamveryculinary thing I have ever read. This thread, somehow, even moreso than the article. That "Caesar salad" has meant anything in the US other than "pile of usually-romaine and white Sysco gloop with whatever else you want to put on top" since like 1995 is bananas.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:53 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
posted by uncleozzy at 6:53 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
tofu instead of croutons
bagel bites instead of croutons
I would be so dismayed. Whenever I get a Caesar salad it's because I want some fucking croutons rn; it's the defining property.
posted by fleacircus at 10:13 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
bagel bites instead of croutons
I would be so dismayed. Whenever I get a Caesar salad it's because I want some fucking croutons rn; it's the defining property.
posted by fleacircus at 10:13 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Uncle Ozzy, I tried your suggestion of bananas on a caesar salad and I would like my money back please.
posted by Jarcat at 10:23 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 10:23 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Ken (from Ken's Salad Dressings): I come not to bury Caesar
posted by credulous at 10:55 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 10:55 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
Would a Caesar chili have beans in it or not?
posted by lazugod at 11:56 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
posted by lazugod at 11:56 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
If you put Caesar salad in a hot dog is it a sandwich?
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:28 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:28 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Like Thanos, that poster liberated us from the prison of not knowing
posted by Sebmojo at 1:41 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Sebmojo at 1:41 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I thought a hot dog was a taco
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 8:07 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 8:07 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
The Atlantic is edited by David Frum, who is implicated in war crimes committed by the regime of George W Bush.
This is peak late Metafilter style. Chef's kiss.
Do you even hear yourself? It's a post about an article about salad.
So what? I think that shit is interesting. Mwah!
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:02 AM on April 25
This is peak late Metafilter style. Chef's kiss.
Do you even hear yourself? It's a post about an article about salad.
So what? I think that shit is interesting. Mwah!
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:02 AM on April 25
My caesar salad is vanilla ice cream, cashews, and butterscotch syrup
anchovies available if you are a caesar salad traditionalist
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:26 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
anchovies available if you are a caesar salad traditionalist
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:26 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
On a November evening in Brooklyn, in 2023, I was in trouble (hungry).
Honestly, relatable.
My mother started making her own Caesar dressing about a decade ago, and it has been ruinous to my broader enjoyment of Caesar in the world: she doesn't do anything special (well, fresh-squeezed lemon and fresh-grated aged parmesan and fresh-mangled anchovies -- but nothing unexpected to the general concept of Caesar dressing), and it's just plainly correct and better than anything I find from a store or get from a restaurant. I don't think the dressing is difficult to make or anything, but I avoid it mostly because I despise making salads. Something about the rinse+dry??+rip leaves+pray not to get ecoli sequence of preparing the leaves is very off-putting.
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:31 AM on April 26
Honestly, relatable.
My mother started making her own Caesar dressing about a decade ago, and it has been ruinous to my broader enjoyment of Caesar in the world: she doesn't do anything special (well, fresh-squeezed lemon and fresh-grated aged parmesan and fresh-mangled anchovies -- but nothing unexpected to the general concept of Caesar dressing), and it's just plainly correct and better than anything I find from a store or get from a restaurant. I don't think the dressing is difficult to make or anything, but I avoid it mostly because I despise making salads. Something about the rinse+dry??+rip leaves+pray not to get ecoli sequence of preparing the leaves is very off-putting.
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:31 AM on April 26
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posted by mittens at 4:58 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]