She went down to the crossroads.
August 15, 2005 12:30 PM Subscribe
A Maoist take on Cindy Sheehan. To quote the Revolutionary Worker quoting Ms. Sheehan: "I want him (Bush) to tell me 'just what was the noble cause Casey died for'?", she declared. "Was it freedom and democracy? Bullshit! He died for oil. He died to make your friends richer. He died to expand American imperialism in the Middle East.
"We're not freer here, thanks to your PATRIOT ACT. Iraq is not free. You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism! There, I used the 'I' word--imperialism, and now I'm going to use another 'I' word -- impeachment--because we cannot have these people pardoned. They need to be tried on war crimes and go to jail."
(Meanwhile, on the spot, Bush's neighbor is becoming irate; more on that via Yahoo News.)
"This is Texas.", he says. He is clearly agitated.
Nothing like firing some guns in the air, worked great for Kent State!
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:37 PM on August 15, 2005
Nothing like firing some guns in the air, worked great for Kent State!
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:37 PM on August 15, 2005
The great irony of all this is it's pretty much right. It's just being preached with typical utter lack of restraint by the Avakianites (Revolutionary Communist Party, whose rag Revolution - no longer Revolutionary Worker - this comes from). And they just happen to be an insane cult focused around their "exiled" leader Bob Avakian, who lives in the south of France and has to be protected from being shot by CIA agents. True stuff.
There's a joke about the RCP (I'm sure it's not original). It goes: somehow, there's this picture that surfaces, featuring Bob Avakian shaking hands with Chairman Mao - it's pretty incredible stuff. But when it's shown to some RCPers, their reaction is - "Who's that with Bob?"
posted by graymouser at 12:44 PM on August 15, 2005
There's a joke about the RCP (I'm sure it's not original). It goes: somehow, there's this picture that surfaces, featuring Bob Avakian shaking hands with Chairman Mao - it's pretty incredible stuff. But when it's shown to some RCPers, their reaction is - "Who's that with Bob?"
posted by graymouser at 12:44 PM on August 15, 2005
Thanks but no thanks Mr. Avakian. If Sheehan doesn't disavow extremist rhetoric attributed to her by deluded assholes like Bob Avakian then she IS a dipshit.
It's people like Avakian who fall right into the predictable Rovian Spin Trap. And now Cindy Sheehan, if these quotes are true, will easily be dismissed as a commie nut by those needing to be convinced MOST of the idiocy of this war. Otherwise it's just the Chior.
Sigh. So much for that. I wonder if Avakian is on the GOP payroll?
posted by tkchrist at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2005
It's people like Avakian who fall right into the predictable Rovian Spin Trap. And now Cindy Sheehan, if these quotes are true, will easily be dismissed as a commie nut by those needing to be convinced MOST of the idiocy of this war. Otherwise it's just the Chior.
Sigh. So much for that. I wonder if Avakian is on the GOP payroll?
posted by tkchrist at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2005
The 'Grieving Mom' Frame
"Rather than extending America's focus on Presidential lies, the meteoric rise of Cindy Sheehan to the top of the headlines shifted our attention to a 'grieving mother.' Curiously, this shift seems to have happened despite the fact that Sheehan's personal writings and public statements tried to intensify the national focus on the President's lies and refusal to meet with her. So what is the bottom line of the Sheehan protest? What did the Sheehan week achieve? In broad terms, the success of the 'grieving mom' phrase indicates that Americans are now thinking about the War in Iraq through the frame of the family, rather than thinking about Iraq through the frame of 'terrorism' or 'ideology.'"posted by ericb at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2005
Sigh. So much for that. I wonder if Avakian is on the GOP payroll?
The RCP is noted for its bizarre extremism even in the Marxist left and another interesting bit of anti-Avakianism I've heard is of a simple graffito:
RCP-CIA?
(The official acronym being "RCP-USA".) It's an interesting point: keep revolutionaries busy in a cult instead of doing something productive.
posted by graymouser at 12:52 PM on August 15, 2005
The RCP is noted for its bizarre extremism even in the Marxist left and another interesting bit of anti-Avakianism I've heard is of a simple graffito:
RCP-CIA?
(The official acronym being "RCP-USA".) It's an interesting point: keep revolutionaries busy in a cult instead of doing something productive.
posted by graymouser at 12:52 PM on August 15, 2005
It goes: somehow, there's this picture that surfaces, featuring Bob Avakian shaking hands with Chairman Mao
If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow. And despite some of Cindy Sheehan's overstatements, I do like what she's doing, if for no other reason than it shows how little GW actually cares about what's going on.
As for the Maoists: this article wasn't so bad, but isn't being a Maoist in this day and age about as relevant as polio and blacksmithing?
posted by jonmc at 12:53 PM on August 15, 2005
If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow. And despite some of Cindy Sheehan's overstatements, I do like what she's doing, if for no other reason than it shows how little GW actually cares about what's going on.
As for the Maoists: this article wasn't so bad, but isn't being a Maoist in this day and age about as relevant as polio and blacksmithing?
posted by jonmc at 12:53 PM on August 15, 2005
UN-led mass immunization drive across Africa aims to stop resurgence of polio
posted by dreamsign at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by dreamsign at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2005
Well thanks to the fact that this is coming from the Communist Party of the United States of America, whatever reasonable thing they have to say cannot be reasonable, and by reading it, and therefore agreeing with whatever reason it might carry, I would seem to align myself with the Communist Party of the United States of America, and McCarthy's grim spectre would rise and put his pointed finger arm of indictment so far up my ass that its pointed finger would become my new nose.
Therefore I elected not to read it.
posted by nervousfritz at 12:57 PM on August 15, 2005
Therefore I elected not to read it.
posted by nervousfritz at 12:57 PM on August 15, 2005
"[I]sn't being a Maoist in this day and age about as relevant as polio[?]"
Unfortunately, polio is alive and kicking. Though according to the Wikipedia article it ain't so bad YET.
[On preview: hey dreamsign, I'm posting this anyway! Nyaah!]
posted by davy at 12:59 PM on August 15, 2005
Unfortunately, polio is alive and kicking. Though according to the Wikipedia article it ain't so bad YET.
[On preview: hey dreamsign, I'm posting this anyway! Nyaah!]
posted by davy at 12:59 PM on August 15, 2005
As for the Maoists: this article wasn't so bad, but isn't being a Maoist in this day and age about as relevant as polio and blacksmithing?
Ask the Nepalese. But I agree, the Maoist movement stopped making the limited degree of sense it once had back in the '70s - right about the time the RCP and Maoist International Movement formed, actually.
posted by graymouser at 12:59 PM on August 15, 2005
Ask the Nepalese. But I agree, the Maoist movement stopped making the limited degree of sense it once had back in the '70s - right about the time the RCP and Maoist International Movement formed, actually.
posted by graymouser at 12:59 PM on August 15, 2005
Unfortunately, polio is alive and kicking. Though according to the Wikipedia article it ain't so bad YET.
I had a feeling. But I was trying to think of things in the dustbin of history and that's the best I could do on short notice. I'm one man, guys!
posted by jonmc at 1:04 PM on August 15, 2005
I had a feeling. But I was trying to think of things in the dustbin of history and that's the best I could do on short notice. I'm one man, guys!
posted by jonmc at 1:04 PM on August 15, 2005
Speaking of "becoming irate":
That is how I am starting to feel about a president who has taken an ENTIRE YEAR OFF FROM HIS JOB.
posted by wakko at 1:07 PM on August 15, 2005
That is how I am starting to feel about a president who has taken an ENTIRE YEAR OFF FROM HIS JOB.
posted by wakko at 1:07 PM on August 15, 2005
Uh, nervousfritz, the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA is NOT the same as the Communist Party, USA.
See also the Wikipedia articles on the former and the latter.
posted by davy at 1:10 PM on August 15, 2005
See also the Wikipedia articles on the former and the latter.
posted by davy at 1:10 PM on August 15, 2005
Well thanks to the fact that this is coming from the Communist Party of the United States of America...
Oh don't be so melodramatic.
First. It ain't. It's coming from Bob Avakian. A notorious nutbag.
And second: Do you actually want to ACHIEVE something - like end a war? Or do you wanna use extremist rhetoric that alienates people you NEED?
It seems the fantasy about a "revolution", that will most likely never happen in your lifetime, is more important than the concrete reality of war.
posted by tkchrist at 1:11 PM on August 15, 2005
Oh don't be so melodramatic.
First. It ain't. It's coming from Bob Avakian. A notorious nutbag.
And second: Do you actually want to ACHIEVE something - like end a war? Or do you wanna use extremist rhetoric that alienates people you NEED?
It seems the fantasy about a "revolution", that will most likely never happen in your lifetime, is more important than the concrete reality of war.
posted by tkchrist at 1:11 PM on August 15, 2005
Ask the Nepalese.
Ooh. I yield to the superior answer. Too true.
Course, the flat earth society would be "relevant" if they went around toppling monarchies.
posted by dreamsign at 1:14 PM on August 15, 2005
Ooh. I yield to the superior answer. Too true.
Course, the flat earth society would be "relevant" if they went around toppling monarchies.
posted by dreamsign at 1:14 PM on August 15, 2005
The Bush regime is ramming the Patiot Act down our collective throats...but those who appose the war are now communists. I must be missing something here. Didn't the former Soviet Union have a "Patriot Act" of thier own?
posted by wavespy at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by wavespy at 1:15 PM on August 15, 2005
Cultural Revolution Now! Execute everyone who can read! Oh - wait ...
posted by cleardawn at 1:17 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by cleardawn at 1:17 PM on August 15, 2005
I'm posting this anyway! Nyaah!
Only commies say "nyahh!".
Neener-neener!
posted by dreamsign at 1:26 PM on August 15, 2005
Only commies say "nyahh!".
Neener-neener!
posted by dreamsign at 1:26 PM on August 15, 2005
Its interesting that the pro-bush wingnutters are now smearing Sheehan as an "anti-Semite" for daring to discuss Isreal. But I'm not sure why, people can be more pro-Palestinian without being 'anti-Semitic'. Both sides kinda suck.
If anything she hasn't been pitch-perfict on message, but she's just a human being. The right-wing smear job on her could backfire, I hope.
posted by delmoi at 1:26 PM on August 15, 2005
If anything she hasn't been pitch-perfict on message, but she's just a human being. The right-wing smear job on her could backfire, I hope.
posted by delmoi at 1:26 PM on August 15, 2005
There was a good blog article about her by a 'conservative' blogger who's upset with O'Riley, Malkin, etc here.
There was a great comment about how the Bush administration is acting like lawyers. Everything their "client" does is fine, and everyone who opposes them is wrong and needs to be smeared.
posted by delmoi at 1:28 PM on August 15, 2005
There was a great comment about how the Bush administration is acting like lawyers. Everything their "client" does is fine, and everyone who opposes them is wrong and needs to be smeared.
posted by delmoi at 1:28 PM on August 15, 2005
I was trying to think of things in the dustbin of history... posted by jonmc at 1:04 PM
Like smallpox?
posted by PurplePorpoise at 1:37 PM on August 15, 2005
Like smallpox?
posted by PurplePorpoise at 1:37 PM on August 15, 2005
This has gotta be pissing Bush off to no end. No easy way for Gannon to sneak onto the ranch during this extended hiatus sabbatical vacation.
posted by telstar at 1:39 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by telstar at 1:39 PM on August 15, 2005
Why did I read the FPP as "A Moist Take on Cindy Sheehan?" I've gots to lay off the pr0n.... !!!
posted by Debaser626 at 2:05 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by Debaser626 at 2:05 PM on August 15, 2005
What this is posted on aside - I am interested in this "noble cause" bullshit.
Even if he did die for it, do we want people dying for a 'noble cause'?
Who gets to define what is noble?
I'm fine for fighting with oil - but as is pointed out - who profits?
I'm happy she's pointing out the B.S. aspects of the Bushco rhetoric, but why is this emotional but relatively simplistic argument gaining momentum when rational thought has failed to cut through the deceit?
...oh, wait, just answered my own question there.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:13 PM on August 15, 2005
Even if he did die for it, do we want people dying for a 'noble cause'?
Who gets to define what is noble?
I'm fine for fighting with oil - but as is pointed out - who profits?
I'm happy she's pointing out the B.S. aspects of the Bushco rhetoric, but why is this emotional but relatively simplistic argument gaining momentum when rational thought has failed to cut through the deceit?
...oh, wait, just answered my own question there.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:13 PM on August 15, 2005
I was trying to think of things in the dustbin of history... posted by jonmc at 1:04 PM
Like smallpox?
posted by PurplePorpoise at 4:37 PM EST on August 15 [!]
Phrenology?
posted by etaoin at 2:34 PM on August 15, 2005
wakko, think of it as a year in which he didn't drive the nation further into the toilet. I wish he'd take all 8 years off and be done with it altogether.
ShrubCo has misplayed the Sheehan problem so far, by ignoring her they have given her power and a soapbox. She's getting press because she's talking, Bush sent some lackey to try and make her go away.
He could have diffused all of this easily by giving her 20 minutes of his time. But nope, he's got his pride involved and he can't be seen as weak in anyway and giving in to a grieving mother would be giving in. Pride, ego and greed are running our nation.
posted by fenriq at 2:42 PM on August 15, 2005
ShrubCo has misplayed the Sheehan problem so far, by ignoring her they have given her power and a soapbox. She's getting press because she's talking, Bush sent some lackey to try and make her go away.
He could have diffused all of this easily by giving her 20 minutes of his time. But nope, he's got his pride involved and he can't be seen as weak in anyway and giving in to a grieving mother would be giving in. Pride, ego and greed are running our nation.
posted by fenriq at 2:42 PM on August 15, 2005
Pride, ego and greed are running our nation.
And that's different from what other Presidency? :)
It's funny, I recently re-watched a Carlin bit from the 80s. I was a pre-teen so politics were the furthest thing from my mind, but apparently Reagan was a prick, with a massively corrupt staff. Certainly not deserved of a 14K gold trimmed commemorative plate, yours for only 3 easy payments of $39.99!!!!!!
posted by Debaser626 at 2:47 PM on August 15, 2005
And that's different from what other Presidency? :)
It's funny, I recently re-watched a Carlin bit from the 80s. I was a pre-teen so politics were the furthest thing from my mind, but apparently Reagan was a prick, with a massively corrupt staff. Certainly not deserved of a 14K gold trimmed commemorative plate, yours for only 3 easy payments of $39.99!!!!!!
posted by Debaser626 at 2:47 PM on August 15, 2005
fenriq: He already met with her.
Anyone know how much one-on-one time with the president each civilian is alloted?
posted by mullacc at 2:55 PM on August 15, 2005
Anyone know how much one-on-one time with the president each civilian is alloted?
posted by mullacc at 2:55 PM on August 15, 2005
All hail Chairman Bob Avakian! Only by discussion and struggle can we correctly view the internal and external factors in the era of imperialism and advance the world revolutionary movement. Remember that while Mao fought for proletarian internationalism, his viewpoint on what proletarian internationalism is is the viewpoint that we represent the Chinese nation and on that basis we are for unity with the proletariat and all the other oppressed peoples throughout the world. This differs from the viewpoint that Lenin fought for—that whether in an oppressed nation or in an oppressor nation, from an ideological standpoint communists do not represent nations. There is always the question of orientation and point of departure, whether or not your orientation and point of departure is that you are a representative of the nation or the representative of the international proletariat. Accordingly... uh, what were we talking about again?
*shakes head dazedly, reenters world of reality*
We definitely need more people like Cindy Sheehan.
posted by languagehat at 2:55 PM on August 15, 2005 [1 favorite]
*shakes head dazedly, reenters world of reality*
We definitely need more people like Cindy Sheehan.
posted by languagehat at 2:55 PM on August 15, 2005 [1 favorite]
Anyone know how much one-on-one time with the president each civilian is alloted?
It's by the dollar, pro rata.
posted by Rothko at 3:05 PM on August 15, 2005
It's by the dollar, pro rata.
posted by Rothko at 3:05 PM on August 15, 2005
He already met with her. Anyone know how much one-on-one time with the president each civilian is alloted?
"...the Sheehans - one of 17 families who met Thursday with Bush - were whisked in a matter of days to [Fort Lewis, near Seattle] and given the VIP treatment from the military. But as their meeting with the president approached, the family was faced with a dilemma as to what to say when faced with Casey's commander-in-chief....The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey's sacrifice would make the world a safer place. But in the end, the family decided against such talk... [TheReporter.com, Vacaville, CA | June 24, 2004]
posted by ericb at 3:08 PM on August 15, 2005
"...the Sheehans - one of 17 families who met Thursday with Bush - were whisked in a matter of days to [Fort Lewis, near Seattle] and given the VIP treatment from the military. But as their meeting with the president approached, the family was faced with a dilemma as to what to say when faced with Casey's commander-in-chief....The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey's sacrifice would make the world a safer place. But in the end, the family decided against such talk... [TheReporter.com, Vacaville, CA | June 24, 2004]
posted by ericb at 3:08 PM on August 15, 2005
from mullac's link:
"Sincerity was something Cindy had hoped to find in the meeting. Shortly after Casey died, Bush sent the family a form letter expressing his condolences, and Cindy said she felt it was an impersonal gesture."
Ten minutes of face time with the prez divided by seventeen families... With all the hubbub, the staffers, and the press around it's no wonder she feels like she got cheated out of saying what needed to be said at the time.
posted by bloomicy at 3:17 PM on August 15, 2005
"Sincerity was something Cindy had hoped to find in the meeting. Shortly after Casey died, Bush sent the family a form letter expressing his condolences, and Cindy said she felt it was an impersonal gesture."
Ten minutes of face time with the prez divided by seventeen families... With all the hubbub, the staffers, and the press around it's no wonder she feels like she got cheated out of saying what needed to be said at the time.
posted by bloomicy at 3:17 PM on August 15, 2005
Sorry, ericb... serves me right for typing so s..l...o...w...l....y.
posted by bloomicy at 3:18 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by bloomicy at 3:18 PM on August 15, 2005
Does it say that it was split between the families or that each of the 17 families got 10 minutes?
And anyway, from the same link...
"The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey's sacrifice would make the world a safer place.
But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act."
posted by mullacc at 3:25 PM on August 15, 2005
And anyway, from the same link...
"The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey's sacrifice would make the world a safer place.
But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act."
posted by mullacc at 3:25 PM on August 15, 2005
Its interesting that the pro-bush wingnutters are now smearing Sheehan as an "anti-Semite" for daring to discuss Isreal
Which is a neat trick since the Israeli's AND the Palestinian's are both technically Semites.
posted by tkchrist at 3:26 PM on August 15, 2005
Which is a neat trick since the Israeli's AND the Palestinian's are both technically Semites.
posted by tkchrist at 3:26 PM on August 15, 2005
"In the final analysis, the endless abuses and horrors of this system can only be done away with through communist revolution."
Right. That totally follows.
Can I say that while the RevCom article makes some pretty solid points, that their conclusions are so wobbly that they can't stand?
(And Languagehat: Mao was nationalist because he was throwing off the Commintern and mobilizing an internal, and specifically culturally Chinese, revolution. Lenin saw Communism as an international matter, with class being primary and working men in all countries as essentially the same. Mao disagreed and led a more overtly political campaign. With the severe underdevelopment of rural China, it's doubtful that a campaign focused on internationalism would have survived.)
And, for the record, most revolutions are good things. What they precipitate into after the revolution is rarely a good thing.
posted by klangklangston at 3:31 PM on August 15, 2005
Right. That totally follows.
Can I say that while the RevCom article makes some pretty solid points, that their conclusions are so wobbly that they can't stand?
(And Languagehat: Mao was nationalist because he was throwing off the Commintern and mobilizing an internal, and specifically culturally Chinese, revolution. Lenin saw Communism as an international matter, with class being primary and working men in all countries as essentially the same. Mao disagreed and led a more overtly political campaign. With the severe underdevelopment of rural China, it's doubtful that a campaign focused on internationalism would have survived.)
And, for the record, most revolutions are good things. What they precipitate into after the revolution is rarely a good thing.
posted by klangklangston at 3:31 PM on August 15, 2005
tkchrist: I've had Jewish friends vehemently insist that the term "anti-Semite" specifically applied to Jews, despite the actual definition of the term "Semite." I've always been confused by this myself - but, I've never heard anyone use the the term "anti-Semite" in any other context apart from Jewish bigotry.
posted by mullacc at 3:47 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by mullacc at 3:47 PM on August 15, 2005
I've never heard anyone use the the term "anti-Semite" in any other context apart from Jewish bigotry.
I prefer to use the term "hater". It has the bonus of keep'n me hip with the kids these days. You know. With the Snoop Dog Diggity and the P. Doody and the "blang blang" and all that.
posted by tkchrist at 3:52 PM on August 15, 2005
I prefer to use the term "hater". It has the bonus of keep'n me hip with the kids these days. You know. With the Snoop Dog Diggity and the P. Doody and the "blang blang" and all that.
posted by tkchrist at 3:52 PM on August 15, 2005
tkchrist: Thanks, that's what I'll say the next time I question someone use of anti-Semite.
posted by mullacc at 3:59 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by mullacc at 3:59 PM on August 15, 2005
On an initial skim, did anyone else feel faintly anxious about the immediate 'doves' (peace) vs. 'hunting' (war) symbology?
Seriously, the whole Pynchonian paranoia perspective thing is starting to get to me. Signs and wonders.
posted by Haruspex at 4:01 PM on August 15, 2005
Seriously, the whole Pynchonian paranoia perspective thing is starting to get to me. Signs and wonders.
posted by Haruspex at 4:01 PM on August 15, 2005
Shooting a shotgun in the air and explaining it away by saying "this is Texas" is going to do a lot to dispel some people's idea that Texans are crazy gun-wielding yahoos...
posted by clevershark at 4:04 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by clevershark at 4:04 PM on August 15, 2005
You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism!
quite.
she has rather a close following. Though the real reason escapes her. Regional stability and the fact that oil producing countries have about 20 years of cash flow left.
It has always been about oil. wwI and II-oil
oil, oil, oil. so lets get rid of it and then we can all be clean.
I wonder what would Sheehan would do if freight cost rose 50%. motor oil and gasoline by 75%-300%. heating oil up 200%
most of you would just say "get it".
remember "6 days of the Condor"- drugs and spooks
they made a movie of it called "3 days of the condor"
just cut the time in half and had oil be the main premise.
don't you love america?
posted by clavdivs at 4:04 PM on August 15, 2005
quite.
she has rather a close following. Though the real reason escapes her. Regional stability and the fact that oil producing countries have about 20 years of cash flow left.
It has always been about oil. wwI and II-oil
oil, oil, oil. so lets get rid of it and then we can all be clean.
I wonder what would Sheehan would do if freight cost rose 50%. motor oil and gasoline by 75%-300%. heating oil up 200%
most of you would just say "get it".
remember "6 days of the Condor"- drugs and spooks
they made a movie of it called "3 days of the condor"
just cut the time in half and had oil be the main premise.
don't you love america?
posted by clavdivs at 4:04 PM on August 15, 2005
Clavdivs, Cliff Robertson mentions oil in the last two minutes of the film; it wasn't the main premise in any dramatic or narrative sense, just a bit of throwaway explication to tie it up at the end. People only went to see Robert Redford outclever the CIA and cuddle up to Faye Dunaway.
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:12 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:12 PM on August 15, 2005
mullacc, I knew she'd met with him before but not that it had been 17 families splitting a total of ten minutes. Kind of hard to have a heart to heart with the tick tock going.
What I'd meant in my comment before was that Bush could have diffused this current situation by meeting with her when she showed up. Not that he really had any answers for why her son is dead since the truth wouldn't play all that well. But still, the way they've handled this, and the ever growing discontent over the handling of the war, gives me some hope that America still belongs to Americans, all of us.
posted by fenriq at 4:35 PM on August 15, 2005
What I'd meant in my comment before was that Bush could have diffused this current situation by meeting with her when she showed up. Not that he really had any answers for why her son is dead since the truth wouldn't play all that well. But still, the way they've handled this, and the ever growing discontent over the handling of the war, gives me some hope that America still belongs to Americans, all of us.
posted by fenriq at 4:35 PM on August 15, 2005
I know the author of 'Six Days' and he told me, years ago, that they just couldn't fit 6 days into 120 minutes. Therefore, it became 3 days.
posted by vhsiv at 4:47 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by vhsiv at 4:47 PM on August 15, 2005
Anti-semite does only mean anti-Jewish, despite the fact that you can be Semitic and non-Jewish (and Jewish and not Semitic.) The phrase was originated to describe anti-Jewish sentiments. A better phrase, perhaps, would be Judenhass, or "Jew hatred," but once a phrase sticks, it's stuck.
However, it is possible to oppose Israeli policy — or even the fact of an Israeili state — and not be antisemitic. Jews take these positions all the time, although they are sometimes occused of being self-loathing.
posted by maxsparber at 5:26 PM on August 15, 2005
However, it is possible to oppose Israeli policy — or even the fact of an Israeili state — and not be antisemitic. Jews take these positions all the time, although they are sometimes occused of being self-loathing.
posted by maxsparber at 5:26 PM on August 15, 2005
Languagehat: Mao was nationalist because [&c &c]
Komrade klang, I was quoting Chairman Bob. You didn't think that was me, did you? I'll have to work some more on my self-presentation; I don't want to go around being mistaken for a Maoist nutball.
posted by languagehat at 5:41 PM on August 15, 2005
Komrade klang, I was quoting Chairman Bob. You didn't think that was me, did you? I'll have to work some more on my self-presentation; I don't want to go around being mistaken for a Maoist nutball.
posted by languagehat at 5:41 PM on August 15, 2005
LH: Aha! It sounded odd for you... I gotta admit that my readings of communism have been mostly pre-1950s texts (with a little from Latin America thrown in), so I don't recognize Bob when I see 'im. Unless it was in that link, then I should have read more before tuning it out (it just jumped tracks one too many times for me).
posted by klangklangston at 7:07 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by klangklangston at 7:07 PM on August 15, 2005
"It is not antisemitic to criticize the policies of the state of Israel."
-- Colin Powell, Secretary of State, USA
In fact, it's patriotic.
posted by Balisong at 7:19 PM on August 15, 2005
-- Colin Powell, Secretary of State, USA
In fact, it's patriotic.
posted by Balisong at 7:19 PM on August 15, 2005
Commie politics aside, the whole conservative take on this makes me sick. Anyone see the redstate post today saying, essentially, "So what if her kid died? People die all the time! He signed up for it, so tough shit, Cindy!"
Really put it in perspective. Perhaps if Casey had a feeding tube they'd care a bit more.
posted by fungible at 7:39 PM on August 15, 2005
Really put it in perspective. Perhaps if Casey had a feeding tube they'd care a bit more.
posted by fungible at 7:39 PM on August 15, 2005
fungible writes "Anyone see the redstate post today saying, essentially, 'So what if her kid died? People die all the time! He signed up for it, so tough shit, Cindy!' "
Is that the "support the troops" approach that Bush voters are so keen on touting?
posted by clevershark at 7:50 PM on August 15, 2005
Is that the "support the troops" approach that Bush voters are so keen on touting?
posted by clevershark at 7:50 PM on August 15, 2005
blacksmithing
Unfortgunately, JonMc, it is alive and annealing,/A>.
posted by Cassford at 8:00 PM on August 15, 2005
Unfortgunately, JonMc, it is alive and annealing,/A>.
posted by Cassford at 8:00 PM on August 15, 2005
This thread shows the true character of the Metafilter political majority. And that's tragic.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:33 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 8:33 PM on August 15, 2005
This post outlines the true character of the people we elect. And that's tragic.
posted by Balisong at 8:55 PM on August 15, 2005
posted by Balisong at 8:55 PM on August 15, 2005
The RCP is noted for its bizarre extremism even in the Marxist left and another interesting bit of anti-Avakianism I've heard is of a simple graffito:
RCP-CIA?
Would that make them similar to the Spartacus Youth League? 'Cause I remember them from college - they made the other communist campus groups twitch & squirm with embarrassment. It was rumored that they were a CIA plant group. I'll tell you this much: they weren't spartan nor were they particularly young. They were definitely an odd bunch.
Oh, and ignore the troll - that goes without saying.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:02 PM on August 15, 2005
RCP-CIA?
Would that make them similar to the Spartacus Youth League? 'Cause I remember them from college - they made the other communist campus groups twitch & squirm with embarrassment. It was rumored that they were a CIA plant group. I'll tell you this much: they weren't spartan nor were they particularly young. They were definitely an odd bunch.
Oh, and ignore the troll - that goes without saying.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:02 PM on August 15, 2005
He could have diffused all of this easily by giving her 20 minutes of his time.
Sounds reasonable, what grieving mother isn't entitled to that much?
In a standard work year, there are 2000 hours on the job given 40 hours per week with two weeks vacation.
The Iraqi Coalition Casualty Count's 2046 military fatalities, at 20 minutes each, rounds to 682 presidential condolance hours. And that's just the coalition moms. The Iraqi Body Count tallies dead Iraqi civilians; their minimum estimate is 23,589. At 20 minutes apiece, that's 7863 hours for a total 8545 hours.
That oughtta keep him out of trouble till the next election.
posted by maniabug at 9:35 PM on August 15, 2005
Sounds reasonable, what grieving mother isn't entitled to that much?
In a standard work year, there are 2000 hours on the job given 40 hours per week with two weeks vacation.
The Iraqi Coalition Casualty Count's 2046 military fatalities, at 20 minutes each, rounds to 682 presidential condolance hours. And that's just the coalition moms. The Iraqi Body Count tallies dead Iraqi civilians; their minimum estimate is 23,589. At 20 minutes apiece, that's 7863 hours for a total 8545 hours.
That oughtta keep him out of trouble till the next election.
posted by maniabug at 9:35 PM on August 15, 2005
By the way, to answer a contention in a now-closed Metatalk thread, this FPP was not "a one-link post to an op-ed" -- there were three more links to another aspect of the situation. (You know, Shotgun Man.) Second, others had posted links to articles on Cindy Sheehan, but nobody had linked to the RCP-USA commenting on Cindy Sheehan: who was saying what, and the differences between that and the "Faux News" articles and more "traditional" op-ed pieces about Cindy Sheehan, was the point of that link. (You know, "I bet you won't find this perspective in the New York Times Online!") Given that, e.g., a bright guy like jonmc wasn't till recently aware that Marxism is a subset of Socialism, I feel that's justified.
If I may presume to advise Steve_at_Linnwood (and everybody else who discussed his post), what Steve's FPP linking to Hitchens' anti-Sheehan screed needed was another link or two: maybe someone disagreeing with Hitchens, or maybe somebody with yet another take on it, or maybe a news article about a Scientologist celebrity driving a Maserati into Cindy Sheehan's little group to draw attention to Xenu. Or maybe it didn't need to be to be on the front page to get seen: a link to it in this thread (see above), where Cindy Sheehan's mission and people's reactions to it are already being discussed, should be less "objectionable". (Note how seldom I bother to front-page whatever I have to say.)
Anyway. The point of that link in my post was, as I said, to point to 'a Maoist take on Cindy Sheehan". Which so far only graymouser has really referred to. So, to deposit here a few paragraphs of Maoist prose so y'all don't have to FTFA:
"It is good--it is very important and very positive--that people are justifiably outraged by the ugly, illegitimate, unjust and immoral war this system has waged on the Iraqi people and are seeking to act politically against it. That outrage and that desire are something to build on.
At the same time, the instinctive reliance on going to the senators or congressmen reveals a serious weakness. This is the established "way you do things" in this country, when you get mad--you go to your congressman or senator, to demand they do something, or you wait for the next election, or you even hope that somehow the pendulum will swing while you root for your side in your living room chair. All these paths amount to hoping that one section of the elite, or one group of rulers, will oppose the group that's doing the bad things, and deal with the situation for the people. And it is precisely this sort of thing that time and again has not just confined but strangled and suffocated people's deep desire and real interests in getting rid of the Bush regime, and all it does and stands for.
If the terms of things are such that the goal of people's activities is to get one section of the rulers to oppose another competing section of the elite, and to take up the cause of people's struggles, then very quickly those terms will be changed to accomodate one or another group of rulers. The elite will turn the struggles of the people to their own interests and change the agenda. And at the end of the day people will end up betraying the very cause they were fighting for in the first place, despite their best intentions." [end quote]
That is, "Sheehanism" won't accomplish anything besides giving some folks a chance to let off steam before we get reamed harder. I personally think Avakian is silly and Maoism is immoral, nevertheless I find the critique spot-on.
But anyhow.
And let's not forget Shotgun Man. He too had a take on Cindy Sheehan's efforts that differs from the usual -- and seems to agree with Hitchens.
posted by davy at 12:31 AM on August 16, 2005
If I may presume to advise Steve_at_Linnwood (and everybody else who discussed his post), what Steve's FPP linking to Hitchens' anti-Sheehan screed needed was another link or two: maybe someone disagreeing with Hitchens, or maybe somebody with yet another take on it, or maybe a news article about a Scientologist celebrity driving a Maserati into Cindy Sheehan's little group to draw attention to Xenu. Or maybe it didn't need to be to be on the front page to get seen: a link to it in this thread (see above), where Cindy Sheehan's mission and people's reactions to it are already being discussed, should be less "objectionable". (Note how seldom I bother to front-page whatever I have to say.)
Anyway. The point of that link in my post was, as I said, to point to 'a Maoist take on Cindy Sheehan". Which so far only graymouser has really referred to. So, to deposit here a few paragraphs of Maoist prose so y'all don't have to FTFA:
"It is good--it is very important and very positive--that people are justifiably outraged by the ugly, illegitimate, unjust and immoral war this system has waged on the Iraqi people and are seeking to act politically against it. That outrage and that desire are something to build on.
At the same time, the instinctive reliance on going to the senators or congressmen reveals a serious weakness. This is the established "way you do things" in this country, when you get mad--you go to your congressman or senator, to demand they do something, or you wait for the next election, or you even hope that somehow the pendulum will swing while you root for your side in your living room chair. All these paths amount to hoping that one section of the elite, or one group of rulers, will oppose the group that's doing the bad things, and deal with the situation for the people. And it is precisely this sort of thing that time and again has not just confined but strangled and suffocated people's deep desire and real interests in getting rid of the Bush regime, and all it does and stands for.
If the terms of things are such that the goal of people's activities is to get one section of the rulers to oppose another competing section of the elite, and to take up the cause of people's struggles, then very quickly those terms will be changed to accomodate one or another group of rulers. The elite will turn the struggles of the people to their own interests and change the agenda. And at the end of the day people will end up betraying the very cause they were fighting for in the first place, despite their best intentions." [end quote]
That is, "Sheehanism" won't accomplish anything besides giving some folks a chance to let off steam before we get reamed harder. I personally think Avakian is silly and Maoism is immoral, nevertheless I find the critique spot-on.
But anyhow.
And let's not forget Shotgun Man. He too had a take on Cindy Sheehan's efforts that differs from the usual -- and seems to agree with Hitchens.
posted by davy at 12:31 AM on August 16, 2005
CNN just reported on the situation and it seems that Mr. Mattlage claims he was preparing for dove hunting season.
Are you serious? This guy is clearly mocking this reporter. 1,800-something dead not-Presidents say this guy did this thinking he'd get invited to dinner at the ranch.
posted by Embryo at 1:14 AM on August 16, 2005
Are you serious? This guy is clearly mocking this reporter. 1,800-something dead not-Presidents say this guy did this thinking he'd get invited to dinner at the ranch.
posted by Embryo at 1:14 AM on August 16, 2005
KKK Pro-War.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:11 AM on August 16, 2005
posted by Space Coyote at 3:11 AM on August 16, 2005
For those wondering what the other Communist Party has to say, this is an article from their newspaper. And here is the perspective from the World Socialist Web Site, whose movie reviews were discussed not long ago. (Note: I don't actually endorse any of these groups. I'm just giving a sample of what some American Marxists are saying.)
posted by graymouser at 4:13 AM on August 16, 2005
posted by graymouser at 4:13 AM on August 16, 2005
"Perhaps if Casey had a feeding tube they'd care a bit more."
Fungible, I love you.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:25 AM on August 16, 2005
Fungible, I love you.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:25 AM on August 16, 2005
Thanks for the post davy. Cindy is great. Too bad our overpaid, good-hair corporate media have such a problem expressing what the majority of Americans feel.
Loved the title too. Reference to an old song perhaps?
posted by nofundy at 6:59 AM on August 16, 2005
Loved the title too. Reference to an old song perhaps?
posted by nofundy at 6:59 AM on August 16, 2005
Oh, Larry. Will you become a superstar or is this merely a cameo appearance?
I thought it was A Taoist Take on Cindy Sheehan. That would have been interesting.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:41 AM on August 16, 2005
I thought it was A Taoist Take on Cindy Sheehan. That would have been interesting.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:41 AM on August 16, 2005
Well said davy.
"Villiens you are and villiens you will remain"
(June 15, 1381 - King Richard II)
Very popular with the pesants, Richard II promised to rescind the feudal servitude of the English peasantry after they aided him to secure power.
After Richard II did secure the throne, the leaders of the revolt were killed or jailed and the main body of serfs and laborers in the mob were forcefully returned to the land and the feudal system was reinforced.
In addition, Richard II isolated himself with 'unworthy friends' from the both magnates and commons and the King was given and accepted very bad advice and counsel by his inner circle.
King Richard was encouraged by uncles to have very elevated view of kingship, but his leadership was discredited by war losses in France and disruptions at home.
As conditions worsened, Richard II's behavior became more erratic.
King Richard II was described in his day as being of "of common stature ... abrupt and stammering of speech, capricious in his manners ... He was prodigal in his gifts."
Richard II's final decade of rule, after his minority ended in 1389, was filled with plotting of revenge against his nobles, rather than implementing measures of compromise with the "appellant lords"
Richard II was unable grow up, to the end he remained a lonely, uncertain, suspicious, hurt, petulant and angry child who treated his subjects harshly and managed to persuade the Pope to excommunicate all opponents of the Crown including ministers who disagreed with him.
...the more things change....
posted by Smedleyman at 9:08 AM on August 16, 2005
"Villiens you are and villiens you will remain"
(June 15, 1381 - King Richard II)
Very popular with the pesants, Richard II promised to rescind the feudal servitude of the English peasantry after they aided him to secure power.
After Richard II did secure the throne, the leaders of the revolt were killed or jailed and the main body of serfs and laborers in the mob were forcefully returned to the land and the feudal system was reinforced.
In addition, Richard II isolated himself with 'unworthy friends' from the both magnates and commons and the King was given and accepted very bad advice and counsel by his inner circle.
King Richard was encouraged by uncles to have very elevated view of kingship, but his leadership was discredited by war losses in France and disruptions at home.
As conditions worsened, Richard II's behavior became more erratic.
King Richard II was described in his day as being of "of common stature ... abrupt and stammering of speech, capricious in his manners ... He was prodigal in his gifts."
Richard II's final decade of rule, after his minority ended in 1389, was filled with plotting of revenge against his nobles, rather than implementing measures of compromise with the "appellant lords"
Richard II was unable grow up, to the end he remained a lonely, uncertain, suspicious, hurt, petulant and angry child who treated his subjects harshly and managed to persuade the Pope to excommunicate all opponents of the Crown including ministers who disagreed with him.
...the more things change....
posted by Smedleyman at 9:08 AM on August 16, 2005
Just in case this hasn't been posted, here's a 7-minute documentary shot outside the ranch.
posted by hypersloth at 6:19 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by hypersloth at 6:19 PM on August 16, 2005
Cliff Robertson mentions oil in the last two minutes of the film; it wasn't the main premise in any dramatic or narrative sense,
oh, on the contrary. Redfords character was stumbling upon war games, thats why his unit was wiped out. The "roughe" elements decided upon this and we know the reason at the end, like alot of stories. But Oil was and is more important then opium (shades of Dune)
and redfords character did not outwit anyone and was saved by max schells character and remember the frozen last frame?, him looking over his shoulder?
be seeing you
posted by clavdivs at 4:15 PM on August 17, 2005
oh, on the contrary. Redfords character was stumbling upon war games, thats why his unit was wiped out. The "roughe" elements decided upon this and we know the reason at the end, like alot of stories. But Oil was and is more important then opium (shades of Dune)
and redfords character did not outwit anyone and was saved by max schells character and remember the frozen last frame?, him looking over his shoulder?
be seeing you
posted by clavdivs at 4:15 PM on August 17, 2005
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