France Will Never Forget
July 22, 2007 8:25 AM Subscribe
Cheese-Eating Remembrance Monkeys!
posted by blue_beetle at 8:43 AM on July 22, 2007
posted by blue_beetle at 8:43 AM on July 22, 2007
Wow! Incredible! Wonderful post. I'll gladly wade through 10 nonsensical Hama7 FPPs to see one like this. And I have! :)
Seriously though, thanks. That was something.
posted by The Deej at 8:48 AM on July 22, 2007
Seriously though, thanks. That was something.
posted by The Deej at 8:48 AM on July 22, 2007
Yeah, good old Europe seems to have a better historical memory ... compared to some other cheeseburger eating christian alcoholic chickenhawks ...
Thanks America for helping Europe to get rid of Adolf Hitler - although the Russian people really did the main work.
The Soviet Union lost over 13% of it's total population in WWII (23,600,000 dead), while the US suffered 'only' 481.500 losses. France itself lost 562,000 people.
Source: Wikipedia
posted by homodigitalis at 8:48 AM on July 22, 2007
Thanks America for helping Europe to get rid of Adolf Hitler - although the Russian people really did the main work.
The Soviet Union lost over 13% of it's total population in WWII (23,600,000 dead), while the US suffered 'only' 481.500 losses. France itself lost 562,000 people.
Source: Wikipedia
posted by homodigitalis at 8:48 AM on July 22, 2007
I'm always surprised at how Americans fail to understand why the French are the way they are.
Imagine your country had been literally decimated, its population reduced by 10%, time and time and time and time again by glory-seeking leaders who never personally exposed themselves to bullets but who sent millions of young men into wars they had no chance of winning. Imagine if your ancestors had been forced to the point of economic ruin time and time again by having to pay "reparations" ie. revenge money. Imagine war had become nothing to you but an expensive boondoggle to enrich the military at your personal and economic expense.
You wouldn't be so thrilled about going to war either, especially at the behest of glory-seeking leaders, foreign or otherwise, who never personally expose themselves to bullets but who have no qualms about sending millions of young men and women into wars they have no chance of winning.
posted by watsondog at 8:53 AM on July 22, 2007 [4 favorites]
Imagine your country had been literally decimated, its population reduced by 10%, time and time and time and time again by glory-seeking leaders who never personally exposed themselves to bullets but who sent millions of young men into wars they had no chance of winning. Imagine if your ancestors had been forced to the point of economic ruin time and time again by having to pay "reparations" ie. revenge money. Imagine war had become nothing to you but an expensive boondoggle to enrich the military at your personal and economic expense.
You wouldn't be so thrilled about going to war either, especially at the behest of glory-seeking leaders, foreign or otherwise, who never personally expose themselves to bullets but who have no qualms about sending millions of young men and women into wars they have no chance of winning.
posted by watsondog at 8:53 AM on July 22, 2007 [4 favorites]
Actually digitalis, I don't agree with you. Speaking for my old parents who were 11-16 yrs. old during the war, we in the Netherlands were quite grateful for being liberated by the British, the Americans and the Canadians. Rather than by the Russians.
Although the sentiment has faded in the last decade I'd say.
posted by jouke at 8:55 AM on July 22, 2007
Although the sentiment has faded in the last decade I'd say.
posted by jouke at 8:55 AM on July 22, 2007
jouke: Where do I imply that liberation by America was bad? You only have to look at the terrible difference between Eat & West Germany during the Cold War.
I am just saying that the Russians did the most dying in this dreadful episode. Maybe Spielberg should do a movie about 'Saving Private Ivan'?
posted by homodigitalis at 9:02 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
I am just saying that the Russians did the most dying in this dreadful episode. Maybe Spielberg should do a movie about 'Saving Private Ivan'?
posted by homodigitalis at 9:02 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
Where do I imply that liberation by America was bad?
You just implied it wasn't a very meaningful contribution. Which is a refrain I've heard that overcompensates for the natural backlash to the myth that America alone liberated Europe that Americans are so fond of believing.
posted by Falconetti at 9:12 AM on July 22, 2007
You just implied it wasn't a very meaningful contribution. Which is a refrain I've heard that overcompensates for the natural backlash to the myth that America alone liberated Europe that Americans are so fond of believing.
posted by Falconetti at 9:12 AM on July 22, 2007
Ok A misunderstanding then.
Yeah, well, I did fid the Saving Private Ryan series unsufferable with it's US nationalism...
posted by jouke at 9:12 AM on July 22, 2007
Yeah, well, I did fid the Saving Private Ryan series unsufferable with it's US nationalism...
posted by jouke at 9:12 AM on July 22, 2007
Ok A misunderstanding then.
Yeah, well, I did fid the Saving Private Ryan series unsufferable with it's US nationalism...
posted by jouke
Huh? Saving Private Ryan was a single film, not a series. It may have contained what you call unsufferable (sic) US nationalism, but that's the perspective from which it was made. A story about the American army will necessarily focus on the Americans. It doesn't mean anyone thinks no other army existed.
posted by The Deej at 9:19 AM on July 22, 2007
Yeah, well, I did fid the Saving Private Ryan series unsufferable with it's US nationalism...
posted by jouke
Huh? Saving Private Ryan was a single film, not a series. It may have contained what you call unsufferable (sic) US nationalism, but that's the perspective from which it was made. A story about the American army will necessarily focus on the Americans. It doesn't mean anyone thinks no other army existed.
posted by The Deej at 9:19 AM on July 22, 2007
Pretty impressive, all the way around. And with that lovely music, too! (also in 'the Mission.') Thanks for the post.
Hurray for the French!
posted by etaoin at 9:21 AM on July 22, 2007
Hurray for the French!
posted by etaoin at 9:21 AM on July 22, 2007
You're right, I meant the series Band of Brothers.
And I meant insufferable of course. Thank you for improving my command of English. I wish I could return the favour for your command of Dutch.
posted by jouke at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2007 [2 favorites]
And I meant insufferable of course. Thank you for improving my command of English. I wish I could return the favour for your command of Dutch.
posted by jouke at 9:23 AM on July 22, 2007 [2 favorites]
Don't worry about it. My Dutch is perfect. I'd write something here to prove it, but... um... I have to go pee.
posted by The Deej at 9:27 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by The Deej at 9:27 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
'Band of Brothers' and 'Saving Private Ryan' are closely related. Spielberg and Tom Hanks made the series based on the writing of Stephen Ambrose after they did 'Ryan together.
posted by homodigitalis at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2007
posted by homodigitalis at 9:28 AM on July 22, 2007
"A story about the American army will necessarily focus on the Americans."
Sure. It's only funny, because in both movie and TV series you hardly see any other allied soldiers at all. It's almost like they didn't exist at the western front AND work together with the Americans.
posted by homodigitalis at 9:31 AM on July 22, 2007
Sure. It's only funny, because in both movie and TV series you hardly see any other allied soldiers at all. It's almost like they didn't exist at the western front AND work together with the Americans.
posted by homodigitalis at 9:31 AM on July 22, 2007
What delmoi said. The point this was to give a tribute the the Americans.
No one thinks the Americans did everything, not even Americans.
posted by The Deej at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2007
No one thinks the Americans did everything, not even Americans.
posted by The Deej at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2007
Well, the U.S, and the U.K did liberate France.
Word. But don't forget the efforts of the French resistance. IIRC, they died at percentages equal to or greater than the Allied liberators.
Funny how that gets forgotten when we Americans bash the French, huh?
posted by John of Michigan at 9:37 AM on July 22, 2007
Word. But don't forget the efforts of the French resistance. IIRC, they died at percentages equal to or greater than the Allied liberators.
Funny how that gets forgotten when we Americans bash the French, huh?
posted by John of Michigan at 9:37 AM on July 22, 2007
in both movie and TV series you hardly see any other allied soldiers
Except for the perennial token Brit, though.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:41 AM on July 22, 2007
Except for the perennial token Brit, though.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:41 AM on July 22, 2007
I visited the D-Day beaches of Normandy and the American Cemetary there. It was very moving, even for a cynical anti-military American like me. The depth of sincerity extends through the whole countryside; both the US reasons for liberating France and the French gratitude for the help of the Allies'.
It reminded me that it is possible for the US to have a noble war, despite the last 50 years of messes.
posted by Nelson at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2007
It reminded me that it is possible for the US to have a noble war, despite the last 50 years of messes.
posted by Nelson at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2007
You're welcome France, sorry that many Muricans have no class.
FUCK FREEPER FREEDOM FRY FUCKERS
posted by HyperBlue at 9:54 AM on July 22, 2007
FUCK FREEPER FREEDOM FRY FUCKERS
posted by HyperBlue at 9:54 AM on July 22, 2007
Well, the U.S, and the U.K did liberate France.
You forgot Poland!
Also Canada and the Free French.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:56 AM on July 22, 2007
You forgot Poland!
Also Canada and the Free French.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:56 AM on July 22, 2007
Also often forgotten are the people from the non-white bits of the British Empire who did a lot of fighting and dying a long way from home (and in the case of India suffered heavy civilian casualties on their own turf). The BBC's People's War site is good for this and a lot of other memories too.
posted by Abiezer at 10:21 AM on July 22, 2007
posted by Abiezer at 10:21 AM on July 22, 2007
A few years back the "Thank You Canada and Allied Forces" Foundation was disbanded because the veterans were getting to old to attend the festivities. But they had a last event reenacting the liberation of Amsterdam with the veterans being driven in authentic vehicles.
Quite touching these old men.
posted by jouke at 10:23 AM on July 22, 2007
Quite touching these old men.
posted by jouke at 10:23 AM on July 22, 2007
It's only funny, because in both movie and TV series you hardly see any other allied soldiers at all. It's almost like they didn't exist at the western front AND work together with the Americans.
That's like complaining that Memphis Belle didn't show enough Lancasters.
posted by Cyrano at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2007
That's like complaining that Memphis Belle didn't show enough Lancasters.
posted by Cyrano at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2007
If it wasn't for you we'd all be speaking Russian.
(Inlcuding you, since you would have lost the cold war)
posted by Artw at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2007
(Inlcuding you, since you would have lost the cold war)
posted by Artw at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2007
"Imagine ... Imagine ... Imagine."
I find it incredibly hard to believe that modern French political sensibilities has its origins in the Napoleonic wars, which is what you appear to be describing. Quite a lot happened to France just last century, without needing to ponder the 18th: WWI, WWII, the collapse of colonialism, and the rise of third-world nationalism.
posted by ogre at 10:33 AM on July 22, 2007
I find it incredibly hard to believe that modern French political sensibilities has its origins in the Napoleonic wars, which is what you appear to be describing. Quite a lot happened to France just last century, without needing to ponder the 18th: WWI, WWII, the collapse of colonialism, and the rise of third-world nationalism.
posted by ogre at 10:33 AM on July 22, 2007
Of course lots of French people died - there was a war in their country!
This deathcount dickwaving is kinda weird. :/
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:38 AM on July 22, 2007
This deathcount dickwaving is kinda weird. :/
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:38 AM on July 22, 2007
No one thinks the Americans did everything, not even Americans.
I suspect there's a significant number of Americans who think just that.
Nice time to bring up this quote, but I haven't been able track down who to attribute it to: "The Americans think all French hate Americans. The French think all Americans love the French. Both are wrong."
posted by Loudmax at 10:43 AM on July 22, 2007
I suspect there's a significant number of Americans who think just that.
Nice time to bring up this quote, but I haven't been able track down who to attribute it to: "The Americans think all French hate Americans. The French think all Americans love the French. Both are wrong."
posted by Loudmax at 10:43 AM on July 22, 2007
Americans fail to understand why the French are the way they are.
The French State is actually an elaborate joke.
posted by raisons de coeur at 11:02 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
The French State is actually an elaborate joke.
posted by raisons de coeur at 11:02 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
Kind of amazing a name got spelled wrong at the end:
cf. http://www.enniomorricone.com/
but at least it wasn't a USian name.
posted by Listener at 11:05 AM on July 22, 2007
cf. http://www.enniomorricone.com/
but at least it wasn't a USian name.
posted by Listener at 11:05 AM on July 22, 2007
So help me, as mawkish as it was, that video choked me up. And I don't even have any close relatives who died there.
As for the kerfuffle above, I've seen the same argument, step by step, going back to USENET. It's hard to say it just right. Americans don't understand the sacrifices made by the other Allies, because we weren't invaded (although we were attacked ...) and we lost comparatively fewer soldiers (even when comparing just military casualties). There's also an underappreciation of the role played by the Soviets, who held on in Europe for two years before there was a significant second front. None of that should diminish the lives lost on D-Day and the role the US played in liberating France alongside the UK, Free French, Free Polish, and other European units such as the Princess Irene's.
But in many ways it just can't compare to the countries who had entire cities razed to the ground.
It was the biggest war the world has ever had, and it's a little complex. People should remember that.
posted by dhartung at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2007
As for the kerfuffle above, I've seen the same argument, step by step, going back to USENET. It's hard to say it just right. Americans don't understand the sacrifices made by the other Allies, because we weren't invaded (although we were attacked ...) and we lost comparatively fewer soldiers (even when comparing just military casualties). There's also an underappreciation of the role played by the Soviets, who held on in Europe for two years before there was a significant second front. None of that should diminish the lives lost on D-Day and the role the US played in liberating France alongside the UK, Free French, Free Polish, and other European units such as the Princess Irene's.
But in many ways it just can't compare to the countries who had entire cities razed to the ground.
It was the biggest war the world has ever had, and it's a little complex. People should remember that.
posted by dhartung at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2007
Funny how that gets forgotten when we Americans bash the French, huh?
not really.
as a people we have selective amnesia to a staggering degree. If it makes day to day life easier, then there's a good chance of it.
and I've always found the hospitality afforded me as a tourist has more to do with the strength of the dollar than political stances taken by the fucksticks in our hallowed congress.
posted by Busithoth at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2007
not really.
as a people we have selective amnesia to a staggering degree. If it makes day to day life easier, then there's a good chance of it.
and I've always found the hospitality afforded me as a tourist has more to do with the strength of the dollar than political stances taken by the fucksticks in our hallowed congress.
posted by Busithoth at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2007
dhartung: it's a little complex. People should remember that.
Hear, hear.
Thank you for including our handful of escaped soldiers. Although they were a drop in the ocean of course.
posted by jouke at 11:12 AM on July 22, 2007
Hear, hear.
Thank you for including our handful of escaped soldiers. Although they were a drop in the ocean of course.
posted by jouke at 11:12 AM on July 22, 2007
Dhartung, thank you for mentioning the Brigade I was part of. I assure that even in 1989-1990, when I was serving as a sergeant in the 13th infantry batallion, we sure did remember the role "we" had on and shortly after D-Day.
posted by DreamerFi at 11:46 AM on July 22, 2007
posted by DreamerFi at 11:46 AM on July 22, 2007
assure you, I meant... drat, even for a second language I shouldn't be making a mistake like that...
posted by DreamerFi at 11:47 AM on July 22, 2007
posted by DreamerFi at 11:47 AM on July 22, 2007
What I don't understand is the mentality of the slob who grew up in the 70s or 80s, never served in the military and neither did his parents, and yet insists, loudly, that the entire nation of France is still indebted to him for the fact that they don't speak German, and gets outraged when Frances pursues policies in support of its own (rather than the US's) interests.
posted by Tommy Gnosis at 11:48 AM on July 22, 2007
posted by Tommy Gnosis at 11:48 AM on July 22, 2007
You forgot Poland!
Also Canada and the Free French.
And the Aussies and the Kiwis and the Indian colonial troops.
I think what history has glossed over is that, towards the end of the war, the Allies were not called "the Allies" but, rather, "the United Nations." The institution came later.
But, as a Canadian, I'm willing to let the US and UK take center stage. But I always remember that, without the overwhelming sacrifices of the Russians, the Nazis would have won.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2007
Also Canada and the Free French.
And the Aussies and the Kiwis and the Indian colonial troops.
I think what history has glossed over is that, towards the end of the war, the Allies were not called "the Allies" but, rather, "the United Nations." The institution came later.
But, as a Canadian, I'm willing to let the US and UK take center stage. But I always remember that, without the overwhelming sacrifices of the Russians, the Nazis would have won.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2007
I also remember that the first allied troops in Paris were Spanish republican, in exile.
Why the allied leave two fascist regim in place :
Portugal and Spain ?
posted by luis huiton at 1:09 PM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
Why the allied leave two fascist regim in place :
Portugal and Spain ?
posted by luis huiton at 1:09 PM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
I do like the sentiments of gratitude and remembrance of the efforts and the ultimate sacrifice of these brave man (and probably woman, hard work won the economic war effort) , BUT :
One shall be routinely, constantly warned of the dangers of Jingoism and the practice of wrapping self in a flag, declare a piece of cloth as a sacred symbol, embrace the bipolar logic that you either support the flag or you hate it.
1. No man is a superhuman. "Hero" is not the same as "SuperHero" , an illusional fictional character.
2. People aren't divided between "heros" and "cowards" ; this dangerous false dicotomy opens the door to considering "others" as subhumans.
3. The motivation behind an "heroic action" may as well be a mental health problem: throwing yourself in a fire to save a baby is foolush if you can both save yourself and the baby.
4. WAR IS HELL ; there is nothing honorable in war, there is nothing good in war. War must be _avoided , warmongers must be sent to frontlines immediately and if there is no frontline, one should be prepared to make the warmongers experience artillery shelling for a couple weeks, and then move them permanently to frontlines in person..
5. Don't ask me, ask Maj.General. Smedley Butler if War isn't but a racket.
Flag drapping, heroic milites, that's a favourite of every spindoctor and we have ample proof that it WORKS on many people. Don't let the fallen soldier become instrument of indoctrination and more death.
posted by elpapacito at 1:29 PM on July 22, 2007 [2 favorites]
One shall be routinely, constantly warned of the dangers of Jingoism and the practice of wrapping self in a flag, declare a piece of cloth as a sacred symbol, embrace the bipolar logic that you either support the flag or you hate it.
1. No man is a superhuman. "Hero" is not the same as "SuperHero" , an illusional fictional character.
2. People aren't divided between "heros" and "cowards" ; this dangerous false dicotomy opens the door to considering "others" as subhumans.
3. The motivation behind an "heroic action" may as well be a mental health problem: throwing yourself in a fire to save a baby is foolush if you can both save yourself and the baby.
4. WAR IS HELL ; there is nothing honorable in war, there is nothing good in war. War must be _avoided , warmongers must be sent to frontlines immediately and if there is no frontline, one should be prepared to make the warmongers experience artillery shelling for a couple weeks, and then move them permanently to frontlines in person..
5. Don't ask me, ask Maj.General. Smedley Butler if War isn't but a racket.
Flag drapping, heroic milites, that's a favourite of every spindoctor and we have ample proof that it WORKS on many people. Don't let the fallen soldier become instrument of indoctrination and more death.
posted by elpapacito at 1:29 PM on July 22, 2007 [2 favorites]
Yes, the Soviets lost an awful lot of people, and that's a terrible thing. However, there are a couple of things worth remembering: firstly, the Soviets entered the war on the side of the Nazis, and if Barborossa hadn't happened, they would have ended the war on the side of the Nazis; secondly, the Allies went to war, ostensibly, to ensure that eastern Europe didn't fall under the sway of a megalomaniac homicidal lunatic, and ended the war by handing over eastern Europe to Stalin.
posted by veedubya at 1:33 PM on July 22, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by veedubya at 1:33 PM on July 22, 2007 [2 favorites]
The US wouldn't exist without France's help. France started sending weapons to the American colonists in 1776. After the American victory at Saratoga in October 1777 showed that the Americans might be able to win, France entered the war. The French fleet's decisive victory in the Battle of the Chesapeake in September 1781 trapped British General Cornwallis at Yorktown, where he surrendered to American and French forces in October 1781.
General Lafayette was one of George Washington's closest advisors during the Revolution. When American troops entered Paris in World War I, Captain Charles E. Stanton said, "Lafayette, we are here" in acknowledgment of France's help.
General Lafayette was one of George Washington's closest advisors during the Revolution. When American troops entered Paris in World War I, Captain Charles E. Stanton said, "Lafayette, we are here" in acknowledgment of France's help.
I regret I cannot speak to the good people of France in the beautiful language of their own fair country.posted by kirkaracha at 2:00 PM on July 22, 2007 [7 favorites]
The fact cannot be forgotten that your nation was our friend when America was struggling for existence, when a handful of brave and patriotic people were determined to uphold the rights their Creator gave them -- that France in the person of Lafayette came to our aid in words and deed.
It would be ingratitude not to remember this and America defaults no obligations...
Therefore it is with loving pride we drape the colors in tribute of respect to this citizen of your great Republic, and here and now in the shadow of the illustrious dead we pledge our hearts and our honor in carrying this war to successful issue.
LAFAYETTE -- WE ARE HERE !
kirkaracha beat me to it. When die-hard France-haters get on a roll, it's always fun to remind them that the American Revolution couldn't have been won without French support.
It stops them for a few seconds, while their little pea-brains re-adjust by blocking out "facts" and "logic" and replacing them with Limbaugh-isms. But those few seconds are precious.
As for the Soviets losing more people during WWII, well, sure. You had NKVD machine gunners shooting a hell of a lot of them in the back, literally. You had millions of folks starving to death in Sibera, thanks to Uncle Joe. And as others have mentioned, when it was obvious that Berlin was going to fall, there's a reason why Germans, both military and civilian, were making a bee-line west, not east.
It's not like America was selfless in liberating Western Europe. Stopping the Soviet expansion west was a critically important thing to do.
posted by bardic at 2:11 PM on July 22, 2007
It stops them for a few seconds, while their little pea-brains re-adjust by blocking out "facts" and "logic" and replacing them with Limbaugh-isms. But those few seconds are precious.
As for the Soviets losing more people during WWII, well, sure. You had NKVD machine gunners shooting a hell of a lot of them in the back, literally. You had millions of folks starving to death in Sibera, thanks to Uncle Joe. And as others have mentioned, when it was obvious that Berlin was going to fall, there's a reason why Germans, both military and civilian, were making a bee-line west, not east.
It's not like America was selfless in liberating Western Europe. Stopping the Soviet expansion west was a critically important thing to do.
posted by bardic at 2:11 PM on July 22, 2007
* in liberating Western Europe, but stopping the Soviet Expansion. . . .
posted by bardic at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2007
posted by bardic at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2007
Why the allied leave two fascist regim in place :
Portugal and Spain ?
posted by luis huiton at 1:09 PM on July 22 [+] [!]
To fight the spread of communism.
posted by sic at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2007
Portugal and Spain ?
posted by luis huiton at 1:09 PM on July 22 [+] [!]
To fight the spread of communism.
posted by sic at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2007
Russia did not "carry the bulk of the war" or "win the war by themselves". The Germans lost because both the Allies and the Soviets kept large, persistent opposing fronts open, denying the Germans the ability to exclusively devote effort to defeating one or the other enemy. Two front wars suck if you're on the receiving end.
The Russians people lost men on a massive scale for three primary reasons:
1) The stunning incompetence of their war fighting effort until relatively late in the war.
2) The brutality of their leaders who took little no account of casualties they might take in any given objective.
3) The large-scale extermination of civilians by the Soviet government.
The idea that casualty numbers in some way directly equate to combat effectiveness or sacrifice to the cause is, frankly, ignorant . The simple fact is that vast numbers of Russians died because their government wanted them to, and after the fact the history was rewritten to make them martyrs of The Great Patriotic War.
posted by kjs3 at 2:34 PM on July 22, 2007 [5 favorites]
Soviet intervention was a primary reason Franco took over in Spain, if you can believe a nobody like George Orwell. Stalin pretty much undermined the effective fighting capacity of the anti-Franco forces.
posted by bardic at 2:35 PM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by bardic at 2:35 PM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
Maybe if the US mainland had been invaded we could have had impressive death counts like France and the USSR.
Anyway, I liked this video a lot.
posted by erikharmon at 2:44 PM on July 22, 2007
Anyway, I liked this video a lot.
posted by erikharmon at 2:44 PM on July 22, 2007
The Soviets were the other country that invaded Poland in September 1939 - seventeen days after the Nazis. The lands they captured in consequence of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact were mostly incorporated in the USSR after the war, as Poland was bodily shifted westwards into former German territory (my family went with it).
Thanks, Uncle Joe!
posted by athenian at 3:22 PM on July 22, 2007
Thanks, Uncle Joe!
posted by athenian at 3:22 PM on July 22, 2007
It reminded me that it is possible for the US to have a noble war, despite the last 50 years of messes.
The last 50 years of messes are because we refuse to realize that noble wars are the extremely rare exception, not the rule.
posted by PsychoKick at 4:49 PM on July 22, 2007
The last 50 years of messes are because we refuse to realize that noble wars are the extremely rare exception, not the rule.
posted by PsychoKick at 4:49 PM on July 22, 2007
Which is a refrain I've heard that overcompensates for the natural backlash to the myth that America alone liberated Europe that Americans are so fond of believing.
the russians didn't liberate europe, they re-enslaved it
posted by pyramid termite at 5:00 PM on July 22, 2007
the russians didn't liberate europe, they re-enslaved it
posted by pyramid termite at 5:00 PM on July 22, 2007
The French have ALWAYS been our friends. You know your best friends don't give you the keys when your drunk. Your best friends can pitch you some shit every once in a while. Your best friends can tell you "Look, I know you love this woman but she has had four husbands and hates all your friends plus she seems intent on getting you into a war in the middle east."
We HEART France.
And. Enough with the knee jerk WWII US bashing and revisionist bullshit. Current policy aside US entry into World War II was crucial to liberating Europe and none of us should ever forget it. The citizen soldier for the most part obeyed the best angels of their nature and put their lives on the line for people they didn't even know. The Right has done it's best to pervert this fact to their own ends but it won't help to distort it from the left either.
posted by tkchrist at 5:05 PM on July 22, 2007 [4 favorites]
We HEART France.
And. Enough with the knee jerk WWII US bashing and revisionist bullshit. Current policy aside US entry into World War II was crucial to liberating Europe and none of us should ever forget it. The citizen soldier for the most part obeyed the best angels of their nature and put their lives on the line for people they didn't even know. The Right has done it's best to pervert this fact to their own ends but it won't help to distort it from the left either.
posted by tkchrist at 5:05 PM on July 22, 2007 [4 favorites]
The French have ALWAYS been our friends.
not always
posted by pyramid termite at 5:14 PM on July 22, 2007
not always
posted by pyramid termite at 5:14 PM on July 22, 2007
not always
You never got into fist fights with your friends?
Look. Yeah, sure France maybe gossiped about you. Maybe they taught your indigenous people how to scalp your family. But who was there for you when you needed a couch to crash on. Gave you guns when you needed them? Who sold you below market rubber. Believed in you when you didn't believe in your self. Who picks you up at the airport? Who helps you move. Who got all your buddies laid after the war? France, that's who.
F&USABFF
posted by tkchrist at 7:31 PM on July 22, 2007 [5 favorites]
You never got into fist fights with your friends?
Look. Yeah, sure France maybe gossiped about you. Maybe they taught your indigenous people how to scalp your family. But who was there for you when you needed a couch to crash on. Gave you guns when you needed them? Who sold you below market rubber. Believed in you when you didn't believe in your self. Who picks you up at the airport? Who helps you move. Who got all your buddies laid after the war? France, that's who.
F&USABFF
posted by tkchrist at 7:31 PM on July 22, 2007 [5 favorites]
As long as everyone is bringing out there favorite "forgotten sacrifices" in WWII I'll bring out the Chinese. They were the allied country that was in the war longest, they lost a huge amount of people, from between 10.6 to 37 million deaths, with a majority of the deaths being civilian and had one of the largest atrocities of the war, the Nanjing Massacre, committed against them. So as long as we are singing the praises of the war dead, include a verse for the Chinese.
posted by afu at 7:36 PM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by afu at 7:36 PM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
You never got into fist fights with your friends?
no, i just opened up their chateau lafite-rothschild 2003, pissed in it, and replaced the cork
the first bottle i did that to sold for 3900 bucks due to its "dry, tart and muscular" aftertaste and i didn't even get a cut
posted by pyramid termite at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2007
no, i just opened up their chateau lafite-rothschild 2003, pissed in it, and replaced the cork
the first bottle i did that to sold for 3900 bucks due to its "dry, tart and muscular" aftertaste and i didn't even get a cut
posted by pyramid termite at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2007
The stunning incompetence of their war fighting effort until relatively late in the war.
The Germans invaded in June 1941. The tide turned in the Soviet Union's favor at Stalingrad in late 1942/early 1943, stopped the last major German offensive at Kursk in July 1943 (just over halfway through the war in the East), and the Soviets pushed the Germans backwards from then until they captured Berlin in May 1945.
The Germans lost because both the Allies and the Soviets kept large, persistent opposing fronts open
The Soviets had been fighting the Germans for three years before the Allies invaded Normandy in June 1944. (Map of the Eastern Front in April 1944.) The Allies D-Day force was 39 divisions. Germany had 58 divisions in France, Belgium and Holland, and 239 divisions on the Eastern Front. (The Afrika Korps had two German divisions and eight Italian divisions. The Germans had 25 divisions in Italy after the Allies invaded in September 1943.)
Germany lost 4,000,000 men on the Eastern Front, 72% of their total losses of 5,533,000.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:09 PM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
C'était très émouvant. Qu'est-ce que musique jouait vers la fin ? Peut-etre quelque chose Bach? Nous devons nous aimer, parce que qu'est-ce que est la alternative? guerre constamment? Edwin Starr dit "War, what is good for?" Une bonne question.
posted by oxford blue at 11:03 PM on July 22, 2007
posted by oxford blue at 11:03 PM on July 22, 2007
The Soviets had been fighting the Germans for three years before the Allies invaded Normandy in June 1944.
And during those years pre D-Day, the Allies managed to achieve near total air superiority and regular bombings of German manufacturing and other war-making enterprises, which weren't for nothing.
posted by Snyder at 11:15 PM on July 22, 2007
And during those years pre D-Day, the Allies managed to achieve near total air superiority and regular bombings of German manufacturing and other war-making enterprises, which weren't for nothing.
posted by Snyder at 11:15 PM on July 22, 2007
The Germans lost because both the Allies and the Soviets kept large, persistent opposing fronts open.
Thanks kirkaracha for debunking that one.
Stalin was very pissed at his Allies for holding back so long.
And Bomber Harris Air War against Germany hardly stopped the german war machine.
posted by homodigitalis at 10:00 AM on July 23, 2007
Thanks kirkaracha for debunking that one.
Stalin was very pissed at his Allies for holding back so long.
And Bomber Harris Air War against Germany hardly stopped the german war machine.
posted by homodigitalis at 10:00 AM on July 23, 2007
Intresting that that the number of people you see on the bech are the number of Americans killed there that first day.
On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The American forces landed numbered 73,000: 23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops. In the British and Canadian sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British): 24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and 7900 airborne troops.
11,590 aircraft were available to support the landings. On D-Day, Allied aircraft flew 14,674 sorties, and 127 were lost.
In the airborne landings on both flanks of the beaches, 2395 aircraft and 867 gliders of the RAF and USAAF were used on D-Day.
Operation Neptune involved huge naval forces, including 6939 vessels: 1213 naval combat ships, 4126 landing ships and landing craft, 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels. Some 195,700 personnel were assigned to Operation Neptune: 52,889 US, 112,824 British, and 4988 from other Allied countries.
By the end of 11 June (D + 5), 326,547 troops, 54,186 vehicles and 104,428 tons of supplies had been landed on the beaches.
Oh and
Total Allied casualties on D-Day are estimated at 10,000, including 2500 dead. British casualties on D-Day have been estimated at approximately 2700. The Canadians lost 946 casualties. The US forces lost 6603 men. Note that the casualty figures for smaller units do not always add up to equal these overall figures exactly, however (this simply reflects the problems of obtaining accurate casualty statistics).
Casualties on the British beaches were roughly 1000 on Gold Beach and the same number on Sword Beach. The remainder of the British losses were amongst the airborne troops: some 600 were killed or wounded, and 600 more were missing; 100 glider pilots also became casualties. The losses of 3rd Canadian Division at Juno Beach have been given as 340 killed, 574 wounded and 47 taken prisoner.
The breakdown of US casualties was 1465 dead, 3184 wounded, 1928 missing and 26 captured. Of the total US figure, 2499 casualties were from the US airborne troops (238 of them being deaths). The casualties at Utah Beach were relatively light: 197, including 60 missing. However, the US 1st and 29th Divisions together suffered around 2000 casualties at Omaha Beach.
The total German casualties on D-Day are not known, but are estimated as being between 4000 and 9000 men.
Naval losses for June 1944 included 24 warships and 35 merchantmen or auxiliaries sunk, and a further 120 vessels damaged.
Over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or went missing during the Battle of Normandy. This figure includes over 209,000 Allied casualties, with nearly 37,000 dead amongst the ground forces and a further 16,714 deaths amongst the Allied air forces. Of the Allied casualties, 83,045 were from 21st Army Group (British, Canadian and Polish ground forces), 125,847 from the US ground forces. The losses of the German forces during the Battle of Normandy can only be estimated. Roughly 200,000 German troops were killed or wounded. The Allies also captured 200,000 prisoners of war (not included in the 425,000 total, above). During the fighting around the Falaise Pocket (August 1944) alone, the Germans suffered losses of around 90,000, including prisoners.
Today, twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles.
Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing.
posted by MapGuy at 4:32 PM on July 23, 2007
On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The American forces landed numbered 73,000: 23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops. In the British and Canadian sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British): 24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and 7900 airborne troops.
11,590 aircraft were available to support the landings. On D-Day, Allied aircraft flew 14,674 sorties, and 127 were lost.
In the airborne landings on both flanks of the beaches, 2395 aircraft and 867 gliders of the RAF and USAAF were used on D-Day.
Operation Neptune involved huge naval forces, including 6939 vessels: 1213 naval combat ships, 4126 landing ships and landing craft, 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels. Some 195,700 personnel were assigned to Operation Neptune: 52,889 US, 112,824 British, and 4988 from other Allied countries.
By the end of 11 June (D + 5), 326,547 troops, 54,186 vehicles and 104,428 tons of supplies had been landed on the beaches.
Oh and
Total Allied casualties on D-Day are estimated at 10,000, including 2500 dead. British casualties on D-Day have been estimated at approximately 2700. The Canadians lost 946 casualties. The US forces lost 6603 men. Note that the casualty figures for smaller units do not always add up to equal these overall figures exactly, however (this simply reflects the problems of obtaining accurate casualty statistics).
Casualties on the British beaches were roughly 1000 on Gold Beach and the same number on Sword Beach. The remainder of the British losses were amongst the airborne troops: some 600 were killed or wounded, and 600 more were missing; 100 glider pilots also became casualties. The losses of 3rd Canadian Division at Juno Beach have been given as 340 killed, 574 wounded and 47 taken prisoner.
The breakdown of US casualties was 1465 dead, 3184 wounded, 1928 missing and 26 captured. Of the total US figure, 2499 casualties were from the US airborne troops (238 of them being deaths). The casualties at Utah Beach were relatively light: 197, including 60 missing. However, the US 1st and 29th Divisions together suffered around 2000 casualties at Omaha Beach.
The total German casualties on D-Day are not known, but are estimated as being between 4000 and 9000 men.
Naval losses for June 1944 included 24 warships and 35 merchantmen or auxiliaries sunk, and a further 120 vessels damaged.
Over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or went missing during the Battle of Normandy. This figure includes over 209,000 Allied casualties, with nearly 37,000 dead amongst the ground forces and a further 16,714 deaths amongst the Allied air forces. Of the Allied casualties, 83,045 were from 21st Army Group (British, Canadian and Polish ground forces), 125,847 from the US ground forces. The losses of the German forces during the Battle of Normandy can only be estimated. Roughly 200,000 German troops were killed or wounded. The Allies also captured 200,000 prisoners of war (not included in the 425,000 total, above). During the fighting around the Falaise Pocket (August 1944) alone, the Germans suffered losses of around 90,000, including prisoners.
Today, twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles.
Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing.
posted by MapGuy at 4:32 PM on July 23, 2007
Stalin was very pissed at his Allies for holding back so long.
Perhaps Uncle Joe was unfamiliar with this large geographical anomaly interfering with a direct route to the European theater called the Atlantic Ocean. That and the fact the US had almost no real standing infantry forces (compared to Germany) at the time.
posted by tkchrist at 5:50 PM on July 23, 2007
Perhaps Uncle Joe was unfamiliar with this large geographical anomaly interfering with a direct route to the European theater called the Atlantic Ocean. That and the fact the US had almost no real standing infantry forces (compared to Germany) at the time.
posted by tkchrist at 5:50 PM on July 23, 2007
Damn you, tkchrist, you have no email listed. But, on the off hand chance you check in on threads where you have made a comment, I'm having some folks over tonight for food, beverages and general bon ami. We'll out on the back street side in the Broadway courtyard. So, if you're out walking the dog in the neighborhood, step on up and introduce yourself...
posted by y2karl at 10:51 AM on July 28, 2007
posted by y2karl at 10:51 AM on July 28, 2007
Oh, crap--wrong thread! I meant this for the Bill Maher smackdown..
posted by y2karl at 10:53 AM on July 28, 2007
posted by y2karl at 10:53 AM on July 28, 2007
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posted by Pendragon at 8:34 AM on July 22, 2007