USE CONVERSATIONAL DOORKNOBS
May 11, 2023 6:49 AM Subscribe
When done well, both giving and taking create what psychologists call affordances: features of the environment that allow you to do something. Physical affordances are things like stairs and handles and benches. Conversational affordances are things like digressions and confessions and bold claims that beg for a rejoinder. Talking to another person is like rock climbing, except you are my rock wall and I am yours. If you reach up, I can grab onto your hand, and we can both hoist ourselves skyward. Maybe that’s why a really good conversation feels a little bit like floating. from Good conversations have lots of doorknobs by Adam Mastroianni
Meh, fuck this article.
Just kidding! Hey, no, I was just doing that as a joke trying to imagine the comment that would be most antithetical to the theme and spirit of the link! But then I remember that the failure mode of clever is asshole and I have certainly put in my time doing that job.
But aw shhucks it isn't funny anymore if you explain the joke well whatevs thank you chavenet.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:25 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Just kidding! Hey, no, I was just doing that as a joke trying to imagine the comment that would be most antithetical to the theme and spirit of the link! But then I remember that the failure mode of clever is asshole and I have certainly put in my time doing that job.
But aw shhucks it isn't funny anymore if you explain the joke well whatevs thank you chavenet.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:25 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I beg to diverge.
posted by y2karl at 7:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 7:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Or, we could just sit there companionably, watching the world go by, not stressing out about interpersonal fraughtness and non-verbal cues and, just occasionally, share a sentence or two that somewhat relates to something someone else said recently. I'm just saying that not everyone enjoys playing what amounts to badminton with words following a prescribed "how to socialize" rule set. This is your reminder that neuro-diverse people exist.
For an alternate take that says the exact same thing in the article, treat conversation as improv. Don't throw a dud line. Always leave a way to progress. Don't reject a cue, embrace and extend. The power of "yes, and!"
It's just that for some folks, this shit is real work, and we can't be on stage all the time, and hanging out with people who need this is hard.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
For an alternate take that says the exact same thing in the article, treat conversation as improv. Don't throw a dud line. Always leave a way to progress. Don't reject a cue, embrace and extend. The power of "yes, and!"
It's just that for some folks, this shit is real work, and we can't be on stage all the time, and hanging out with people who need this is hard.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
So torn between the knowledge that this is in fact rooted in study and has a lot to offer, and my deep, deep and abiding hatred of fucking IMPROV.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:56 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:56 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Or, we could just sit there companionably, watching the world go by, not stressing out about interpersonal fraughtness and non-verbal cues and, just occasionally, share a sentence or two that somewhat relates to something someone else said recently. I'm just saying that not everyone enjoys playing what amounts to badminton with words following a prescribed "how to socialize" rule set. This is your reminder that neuro-diverse people exist.
neurodiverse here. and the thing is i don't even like calling this a neurodiverse thing, unless like half the people in the world fall under the rubric "neurodiverse." in my experience conversations with lots of big empty spaces in them, where people duck in and out of attentiveness, are the conversations where the absolute most thinking-together happens, particularly when they're punctuated by tangent-heavy bursts.
obligatory badminton is a recipe for conversations that feel like meetings that should have been emails.
like, my only quibble with this article is that the category "giver" should be renamed "demander" and the category "taker" should be renamed "giver," because what the author calls a taker is someone who gives to the conversation, and what the author calls a giver is someone who demands that you perform a particular role in the conversation., rrrr
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:11 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
neurodiverse here. and the thing is i don't even like calling this a neurodiverse thing, unless like half the people in the world fall under the rubric "neurodiverse." in my experience conversations with lots of big empty spaces in them, where people duck in and out of attentiveness, are the conversations where the absolute most thinking-together happens, particularly when they're punctuated by tangent-heavy bursts.
obligatory badminton is a recipe for conversations that feel like meetings that should have been emails.
like, my only quibble with this article is that the category "giver" should be renamed "demander" and the category "taker" should be renamed "giver," because what the author calls a taker is someone who gives to the conversation, and what the author calls a giver is someone who demands that you perform a particular role in the conversation., rrrr
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:11 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I’ll read the rest of the article, but after the first few paragraphs I’m left thinking “This is just Ask vs Guess culture applied to conversations”
posted by obliterati at 8:19 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by obliterati at 8:19 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is like the inverse of last week’s Ask MetaFilter question where the answers were basically “use fewer conversational doorknobs.”
posted by mbrubeck at 8:23 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 8:23 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
bombastic lowercase announcements I agree! I felt the same on reading this.
posted by Zumbador at 8:26 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 8:26 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have a whole heap of conversational doorknobs, but I never really heard them described like that - just, over the years, I've got pretty good at learning what will ease a friendly, time-passing conversation from a stranger while we wait for the bus. Or any other dull, awkward situation.
'I like your [insert item of clothing]!' is always good, it makes people feel good to be complimented about something they chose to put on their body. 'I like your [item of clothing], where did you get it?' is better, because it prompts a response, and now you're talking about clothes, or the impossibility of finding decent winter boots anymore, or praising the neat little thrift shop up the road, or whatever, and oh, now the bus is here.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 8:36 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
'I like your [insert item of clothing]!' is always good, it makes people feel good to be complimented about something they chose to put on their body. 'I like your [item of clothing], where did you get it?' is better, because it prompts a response, and now you're talking about clothes, or the impossibility of finding decent winter boots anymore, or praising the neat little thrift shop up the road, or whatever, and oh, now the bus is here.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 8:36 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
This was really interesting, and it reminded me of so many bad dates where one person just goes on and on and on about themselves and it doesn’t occur to them to ask about the other person at all - and how often that person then thinks the date went really well because the other person is such a good listener!
But When it’s you and me and Nina and Marlon, who should talk next? It’s often unclear, so we all stand around waiting for someone else to take their turn or to invite us to take ours. is so foreign to me. I was raised in the world of cooperative overlapping / NY Jewish conversation style, where waiting to talk just means becoming a de facto listener. It’s just expected that there’s going to be interwoven multiplayer conversations all the time. I now work for a company / culture where everyone waits to talk and it makes me crazy trying to gauge how to get a word in without interrupting (in the cooperative way that in my normal world is considered continuing the subject, but in this normal world is unquestionably rude). The men get to speak first. The people with seniority get to speak first. The people who assume they’re higher on the pecking order than me get to speak first. It’s infuriating and often makes the actual conversation less productive because sometimes what I have to contribute will actually make a difference in the workflow but they won’t get to me until I can find a turn - and I’m a fairly assertive person. For more introverted people on a team, it must be awful - how many ideas go missing? But on the other hand, someone introverted who would never ever interrupt might be even more lost at our dinner table.
I know this is the opposite problem to what the author of this piece is trying to address - those uncomfortable lulls in the conversation where no one knows what to say. But is silence all that bad if you like the person you’re with? Small talk is awful, companionable silence can be really cozy, and besides that most people are all just looking at their phones anyway. (Yeah, I do know that’s a bad thing).
I’m rambling (the nice thing about posting here is you always have the floor), but for a fun take on anti-small talk conversation starters, I love Starlee Kine’s piece, The Rundown
posted by Mchelly at 9:34 AM on May 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
But When it’s you and me and Nina and Marlon, who should talk next? It’s often unclear, so we all stand around waiting for someone else to take their turn or to invite us to take ours. is so foreign to me. I was raised in the world of cooperative overlapping / NY Jewish conversation style, where waiting to talk just means becoming a de facto listener. It’s just expected that there’s going to be interwoven multiplayer conversations all the time. I now work for a company / culture where everyone waits to talk and it makes me crazy trying to gauge how to get a word in without interrupting (in the cooperative way that in my normal world is considered continuing the subject, but in this normal world is unquestionably rude). The men get to speak first. The people with seniority get to speak first. The people who assume they’re higher on the pecking order than me get to speak first. It’s infuriating and often makes the actual conversation less productive because sometimes what I have to contribute will actually make a difference in the workflow but they won’t get to me until I can find a turn - and I’m a fairly assertive person. For more introverted people on a team, it must be awful - how many ideas go missing? But on the other hand, someone introverted who would never ever interrupt might be even more lost at our dinner table.
I know this is the opposite problem to what the author of this piece is trying to address - those uncomfortable lulls in the conversation where no one knows what to say. But is silence all that bad if you like the person you’re with? Small talk is awful, companionable silence can be really cozy, and besides that most people are all just looking at their phones anyway. (Yeah, I do know that’s a bad thing).
I’m rambling (the nice thing about posting here is you always have the floor), but for a fun take on anti-small talk conversation starters, I love Starlee Kine’s piece, The Rundown
posted by Mchelly at 9:34 AM on May 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Relatedly on the topic of conversational styles, I come back pretty often to this thread about an article describing the "Church of Interruption". My whole life I've struggled with being an interrupter and that thread was really impactful in helping me articulate how and why I converse the way I do (I'm sure my ADHD also plays a role - my personal flavor of neurodiversity does NOT align well with conversational lapses, I can tell you that much).
posted by mosst at 10:00 AM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mosst at 10:00 AM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
like, my only quibble with this article is that the category "giver" should be renamed "demander" and the category "taker" should be renamed "giver," because what the author calls a taker is someone who gives to the conversation, and what the author calls a giver is someone who demands that you perform a particular role in the conversation., rrrr
What you give, when you offer a doorknob, is attention, engagement, encouragement, reassurance - resonance. "Look, I'm interested in prolonguing this interaction. If you're too, this is what we could talk about."
Some people just don't need that! They're perfectly comfortable taking turns monologuing at each other, or sitting in peaceful silence, only occassionally broken by a pertinent observation vaguely aimed at the other's direction. They don't worry for a second about boring each other, because they trust that the other person would say so, if they did, or wouldn't mind, because they can entertain themselves. If know that someone's like that, I will gladly roll with that. I do enjoy a bit of monologuing myself! And I do also very much enjoy the thing where you are just in the same space together, each of you mostly doing your own thing, but still somehow enjoying it more in the presence of the other.
With people I already know.
With people I don't already know, the silence is not going to be comfortable. It's, at this point in my life, no longer awkward either, because I've learned to see the benefits of minimizing interactions with others in many circumstances. But it's indifferent. I take it as a sign that we are both perfectly content with not knowing each other, so I'll leave it at that.
Maybe that's a bit premature. There are after all, many other ways people can learn about each other. Working together, observing each other, imitating each other. Physical activity - rock climbing. Dancing. (I suck at dancing. Or let's say, I suck at that sort of dancing that requires being in sync with another person. I always bristle a little when people read so much about interpersonal compatibility into dancing skills. But I envy them too; I can't shake the feeling that they have a bit of a point.) Everyone has different things that work for them! People will find all sorts of ways to get to know each other, and it really doesn't have to be vibrant conversation.
So I think the point of this whole article is not to claim that this particular style of conversation is the superior style of conversation that has to be practised with everyone everytime. It's just a suggestion that this could be a good style of conversation if you want to use conversation to get to know someone. In the absence of a rock to climb, or a dancefloor. It's just another option!
posted by sohalt at 10:06 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
What you give, when you offer a doorknob, is attention, engagement, encouragement, reassurance - resonance. "Look, I'm interested in prolonguing this interaction. If you're too, this is what we could talk about."
Some people just don't need that! They're perfectly comfortable taking turns monologuing at each other, or sitting in peaceful silence, only occassionally broken by a pertinent observation vaguely aimed at the other's direction. They don't worry for a second about boring each other, because they trust that the other person would say so, if they did, or wouldn't mind, because they can entertain themselves. If know that someone's like that, I will gladly roll with that. I do enjoy a bit of monologuing myself! And I do also very much enjoy the thing where you are just in the same space together, each of you mostly doing your own thing, but still somehow enjoying it more in the presence of the other.
With people I already know.
With people I don't already know, the silence is not going to be comfortable. It's, at this point in my life, no longer awkward either, because I've learned to see the benefits of minimizing interactions with others in many circumstances. But it's indifferent. I take it as a sign that we are both perfectly content with not knowing each other, so I'll leave it at that.
Maybe that's a bit premature. There are after all, many other ways people can learn about each other. Working together, observing each other, imitating each other. Physical activity - rock climbing. Dancing. (I suck at dancing. Or let's say, I suck at that sort of dancing that requires being in sync with another person. I always bristle a little when people read so much about interpersonal compatibility into dancing skills. But I envy them too; I can't shake the feeling that they have a bit of a point.) Everyone has different things that work for them! People will find all sorts of ways to get to know each other, and it really doesn't have to be vibrant conversation.
So I think the point of this whole article is not to claim that this particular style of conversation is the superior style of conversation that has to be practised with everyone everytime. It's just a suggestion that this could be a good style of conversation if you want to use conversation to get to know someone. In the absence of a rock to climb, or a dancefloor. It's just another option!
posted by sohalt at 10:06 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
This article is great. I feel like the names for the parts are somewhat backwards of how I would put it, but earnestly that felt somewhat like a doorknob for talking about the article! It really helped me understand why there are people with whom I have lively and delightful multi hour conversations and people with whom a 15 minute conversation feels like dreadful homework. The people who just offer completely slick surfaces with nothing to grab to keep the conversation going. Led me to thinking about how although I don’t enjoy watching improv, thinking about how good conversations are their own form of improv … perhaps improv is not really done for the audience but for the joy of the people getting to play. And what a wonderful thing that is. To do things for purposes of playing.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:31 AM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 10:31 AM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't know, to me this seems to just boil down to "To be a good conversationalist, be a good conversationalist." What actually is a "doorknob"? Apparently it is just something that the person you are talking to will want to respond to. What is "grasping a doorknob"? Responding to something your conversation partner said. This all seems like basic stuff, but having it in mind hasn't made me any better at having conversations.
posted by eruonna at 11:03 AM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eruonna at 11:03 AM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
What it means is don't simply answer a question when asked. Answer the question and pose another one. A "normal" conversation is a series of prompts and responses, except that from each person's point of view it's reversed -- you have to respond and then prompt, so the other person can do the same thing. (The prompt doesn't have to be related to the previous response, at least.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:25 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:25 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I found the framing more helpful that the previous explanations I've had, like, a conversation is like playing catch with someone. Asking a question is throwing the ball to someone else. If you just answer the question and don't reciprocate with your own question, you have just stuck the ball under your arm. That one never quite worked for me, I think because as the author point out, some questions suck at being doorknobs unless you have a skilled conversationalist partnered with you. Things that can be answered with a simple yes or no or a single word are not great. To use the example from the article: How many grandparents do you have living? None, you? None. Awkward silence. Ball stuck. I've had similar conversations a lot (though not specifically about dead grandparents). They ask a question; I respond and parry with the same question; they respond annnnnnd awkward silence.
Reframing it as needing to create something physical, tangible, a place for the other party to grasp onto helped make something click in my head. I'm hoping this will help me in future conversations.
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reframing it as needing to create something physical, tangible, a place for the other party to grasp onto helped make something click in my head. I'm hoping this will help me in future conversations.
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I want to express my disappointment that this was not a link to a manifesto about replacing all doorknobs with novelty doorknobs.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 11:37 AM on May 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by forbiddencabinet at 11:37 AM on May 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
I loved seeing the word affordance in a piece for lay consumption. That’s one of those ideas from my psych background that has really stayed with me. Thanks for the post.
posted by eirias at 11:41 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 11:41 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can take terrible conversational prompts and run with them (off the top of my head, I have a whole long-ass story I can tell in response to the living grandparents question - not about my own grandparents, or really anyone's specific grandparents, but about this guy I met once...) But I can't tell if I'm overly dominating the conversation, so I hold back, and the conversation dies easily. Tacking on "And you?" at the end feels perfunctory. This is now unlocking a childhood memory of me monologuing at people and being clearly aware that people were not actually listening but not knowing how to fix it. So thanks for the conversational doorknob
posted by airmail at 11:55 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by airmail at 11:55 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I want to express my disappointment that this was not a link to a manifesto about replacing all doorknobs with novelty doorknobs.
I thought it was 'conventional' doorknobs, ie: a manifesto against door handles. Which hey they are more ADA compliant so goodbye conventional doorknobs.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:57 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
The main reason we don’t create more affordances, however, is pure egocentrism.
Oh, sweet jeebus on a stick, what codswallop.
They should have used a pic of a big plate of beans for this article, instead of the mud-happy kids.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:03 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, sweet jeebus on a stick, what codswallop.
They should have used a pic of a big plate of beans for this article, instead of the mud-happy kids.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:03 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
More conversations about doorknobs--got it. Or, better yet, accessorize with doorknobs.
"Pray, good sir, wherever did you get that wonderful doorknob in your lapel?"
"Oh, this little thing, my grandfather said it came from a French chateau his unit encamped in during the war. And I have to say your doorknob is quite fetching as well. Quite rustic. It goes well with your outfit."
"Thank you so much! And as a matter of fact, I inherited this from a grandparent as well. It's from the house my grandfather built, which was sadly torn town when they put in the new highway."
"So sorry to hear that. But at least you have a keepsake to remember them by. I do love a good doorknob!"
"As do I! So, um... [looks up coyly, smiles] Have you seen the doorknobs on that new coffeeshop over on Main? Brass and crystal?"
"No, I haven't had the pleasure--but I'd be delighted to take them in over a cup if you'd care to show me sometime."
[Exeunt]
posted by indexy at 2:12 PM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Pray, good sir, wherever did you get that wonderful doorknob in your lapel?"
"Oh, this little thing, my grandfather said it came from a French chateau his unit encamped in during the war. And I have to say your doorknob is quite fetching as well. Quite rustic. It goes well with your outfit."
"Thank you so much! And as a matter of fact, I inherited this from a grandparent as well. It's from the house my grandfather built, which was sadly torn town when they put in the new highway."
"So sorry to hear that. But at least you have a keepsake to remember them by. I do love a good doorknob!"
"As do I! So, um... [looks up coyly, smiles] Have you seen the doorknobs on that new coffeeshop over on Main? Brass and crystal?"
"No, I haven't had the pleasure--but I'd be delighted to take them in over a cup if you'd care to show me sometime."
[Exeunt]
posted by indexy at 2:12 PM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
“ When we’re all standing on the perimeter of an empty dance circle, takers are the martyrs who will launch themselves into the middle and do the stanky legg.”
a ha ha ha!!! this is totally me! I cannot tell you the number of times I launched myself headfirst into awkward silences to bravely say something, anything, to get it moving. Especially during the Zoom era. 50% I end up feeling stupid but 50% of the time the conversation gets going.
posted by haptic_avenger at 6:01 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
a ha ha ha!!! this is totally me! I cannot tell you the number of times I launched myself headfirst into awkward silences to bravely say something, anything, to get it moving. Especially during the Zoom era. 50% I end up feeling stupid but 50% of the time the conversation gets going.
posted by haptic_avenger at 6:01 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I like the idea of conversation as being a skill you can work on and develop, a strength you can gain. Because it is.
It's like any sort of exercise. At first it may be painful and difficult, but if you follow good advice and keep practising, you'll get better at it. You'll probably never reach the conversational heights of the Algonquin Round Table, just like you'll probably never make it to the Olympics with your jogging or weightlifting, but you'll get better at it.
(If you follow bad advice, on the other hand, conversation - like exercise - will become ever more painful and may result in permanent damage. At that point you may need to seek professional help to get you healed and back into proper form.)
And there are many kinds of conversation you can practise getting better at, like there are many kinds of exercise. The sort of conversation the article is focused on reminds me of, say, a friendly game of ping pong or spikeball, where the action is fast and the goal is to react quickly and generate variety that keeps things interesting. As your playing partners are sending the conversational ball toward you, you're already thinking about where you're going to send the ball next. Everybody is ready to react, and ready to laugh if there's an especially good volley (or an especially bad one).
A conversation where you raise a difficult topic and resolve it is a very different sport, and requires exercising different conversational muscles in a different way. The stakes are usually much higher. Perhaps it's more like mountain climbing with a partner, where an unwise step can doom you both and it pays to listen to experienced advice, to go slowly, to keep yourself thinking clearly despite the anxiety.
I'm sure I could analogize more conversational situations to sporting situations, but perhaps I've stretched the analogy far enough.
posted by clawsoon at 6:33 PM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's like any sort of exercise. At first it may be painful and difficult, but if you follow good advice and keep practising, you'll get better at it. You'll probably never reach the conversational heights of the Algonquin Round Table, just like you'll probably never make it to the Olympics with your jogging or weightlifting, but you'll get better at it.
(If you follow bad advice, on the other hand, conversation - like exercise - will become ever more painful and may result in permanent damage. At that point you may need to seek professional help to get you healed and back into proper form.)
And there are many kinds of conversation you can practise getting better at, like there are many kinds of exercise. The sort of conversation the article is focused on reminds me of, say, a friendly game of ping pong or spikeball, where the action is fast and the goal is to react quickly and generate variety that keeps things interesting. As your playing partners are sending the conversational ball toward you, you're already thinking about where you're going to send the ball next. Everybody is ready to react, and ready to laugh if there's an especially good volley (or an especially bad one).
A conversation where you raise a difficult topic and resolve it is a very different sport, and requires exercising different conversational muscles in a different way. The stakes are usually much higher. Perhaps it's more like mountain climbing with a partner, where an unwise step can doom you both and it pays to listen to experienced advice, to go slowly, to keep yourself thinking clearly despite the anxiety.
I'm sure I could analogize more conversational situations to sporting situations, but perhaps I've stretched the analogy far enough.
posted by clawsoon at 6:33 PM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I live for uncomfortable silences. Especially back in my dating years.
posted by signal at 5:47 AM on May 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 5:47 AM on May 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
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"(“What’s up?” is one of the most dreadful texts to get; it’s short for “Hello, I’d like you to entertain me now.”)"
And those are the worst ones. The people who make conversation into homework.
How to have a good conversation isn't something that's really taught, and this writer did a good job of laying out some of the basics.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:02 AM on May 11, 2023 [13 favorites]