"This is not Guantanamo Bay"
January 28, 2015 5:42 PM Subscribe
A San Francisco deputy public defender was handcuffed and arrested at the Hall of Justice after she objected to city police officers questioning her client outside a courtroom, an incident that her office called outrageous and police officials defended as appropriate.
The Tuesday afternoon arrest of attorney Jami Tillotson as she denied police officers’ attempts to take photos of her client without explanation raised questions about police intimidation, Public Defender Jeff Adachi said at a Wednesday news conference.
Officers took Tillotson to a holding cell in Southern Station, where she remained handcuffed to a wall for approximately an hour. After Tillotson was led away, Stansbury photographed and questioned her client and another young man who did not have an attorney present. Officers refused to tell the young men or Tillotson the reason for the detention.
“Public defenders have a duty to protect the constitutional rights of their clients,” Tillotson said at a noontime press conference Wednesday. “It was surreal to be led away in handcuffs for doing my job, something I do every day.”
The Tuesday afternoon arrest of attorney Jami Tillotson as she denied police officers’ attempts to take photos of her client without explanation raised questions about police intimidation, Public Defender Jeff Adachi said at a Wednesday news conference.
Officers took Tillotson to a holding cell in Southern Station, where she remained handcuffed to a wall for approximately an hour. After Tillotson was led away, Stansbury photographed and questioned her client and another young man who did not have an attorney present. Officers refused to tell the young men or Tillotson the reason for the detention.
“Public defenders have a duty to protect the constitutional rights of their clients,” Tillotson said at a noontime press conference Wednesday. “It was surreal to be led away in handcuffs for doing my job, something I do every day.”
Is this truly the price we've paid for all of those encouraging crime statistics over the past 20 yrs?
Institutionalized racism, rampant corruption, no accountability, gross militarization, and utter disregard for the laws they are asked to uphold. Land of the free my friends.
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:54 PM on January 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
Institutionalized racism, rampant corruption, no accountability, gross militarization, and utter disregard for the laws they are asked to uphold. Land of the free my friends.
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:54 PM on January 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
I just saw this on a FB feed from a friend who did a long stint as a Public Defender.
PDs often get derided as "public pretenders," but a lot of them are perfectly good attorneys--just ridiculously overworked. This whole scene is just awful, but I'm hoping at the very least that the defendant in question sees this as his PD genuinely standing her ground for him.
As for the rest of it...yeah, that and the fact that this is on video are about the only good things I can see out of this. Freakin' ridiculous.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:54 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
PDs often get derided as "public pretenders," but a lot of them are perfectly good attorneys--just ridiculously overworked. This whole scene is just awful, but I'm hoping at the very least that the defendant in question sees this as his PD genuinely standing her ground for him.
As for the rest of it...yeah, that and the fact that this is on video are about the only good things I can see out of this. Freakin' ridiculous.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:54 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think police forces around the country, sitting in their Fox News and facebook bubbles are dangerously underestimating the levels of anger and resentment that are building up, and they're going to be surprised as hell when they accidentally set the tinderbox on fire.
posted by empath at 5:55 PM on January 28, 2015 [103 favorites]
posted by empath at 5:55 PM on January 28, 2015 [103 favorites]
Good lord, I hope at least one POTUS hopeful will have the guts to broach the issue of the ongoing police menace during next year's campaign cycle.
I almost hope they don't, because it'll just be a bunch of empty rhetoric.
More and more it's starting to feel like actually doing anything about this is as big of an ask as single payer, maybe even moreso, because there's the club of omg national security/safety of the children/soft on crime and stuff to beat anyone with who tries to make a change on a major level.
posted by emptythought at 5:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
I almost hope they don't, because it'll just be a bunch of empty rhetoric.
More and more it's starting to feel like actually doing anything about this is as big of an ask as single payer, maybe even moreso, because there's the club of omg national security/safety of the children/soft on crime and stuff to beat anyone with who tries to make a change on a major level.
posted by emptythought at 5:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
A necessary consequence of the fact that any place is Guantanamo is that (at least potentially) every place is Guantanamo.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [127 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [127 favorites]
emptythought: I keep wondering whether things would change with another Democrat in the White House or not. The right plainly put all their effort into blocking Obama at every turn in the hopes that throwing a tantrum for four years (and then six, and now eight) would exhaust the US into voting for them...and, as the last election showed, that's not entirely ineffective. But would another Democratic win of the White House finally force them to change tactics? Maybe? Maybe not?
The anger over police overreach (and brutality, and racism) isn't going to lighten up. Cell phone cameras aren't exactly becoming more scarce over time. Sooner or later, someone's gonna take up this banner and run with it as a campaign issue.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
The anger over police overreach (and brutality, and racism) isn't going to lighten up. Cell phone cameras aren't exactly becoming more scarce over time. Sooner or later, someone's gonna take up this banner and run with it as a campaign issue.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
If only more people receiving a public defense had counsel that competent, principled and dedicated. I wish I could thank Jami Tillotson. I'll think of her the next time I'm challenged to do what's right when it's at odds with my comfort level.
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:06 PM on January 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:06 PM on January 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
Is this truly the price we've paid for all of those encouraging crime statistics over the past 20 yrs?
Crime is down by a huge amount over most of the developed countries in the world during the same period, so no, I think we'd probably have seen the same reductions even absent the, ah, unique American approach to policing.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 6:06 PM on January 28, 2015 [31 favorites]
Crime is down by a huge amount over most of the developed countries in the world during the same period, so no, I think we'd probably have seen the same reductions even absent the, ah, unique American approach to policing.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 6:06 PM on January 28, 2015 [31 favorites]
Can someone with legal expertise explain this to me? The officer says, "I'll arrest you for resisting arrest." At that point, there has been no attempt to arrest her on any charges. In what way is she resisting an arrest attempt that has not yet taken place? Then, when they do arrest her, she doesn't resist. In fact, she says, "Please do."
I could possibly understand some charge related to interfering with an officer in the performance of his duties, but what's the legal grounds for what actually happened?
posted by Longtime Listener at 6:07 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I could possibly understand some charge related to interfering with an officer in the performance of his duties, but what's the legal grounds for what actually happened?
posted by Longtime Listener at 6:07 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I saw this earlier and I don't even begin to understand it. The guy has already been arrested and charged with a crime. That's why he's in the courthouse and has a public defender. So why didn't the police already have his picture on hand?
posted by zachlipton at 6:07 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 6:07 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Looked to me like she was bulking up to run through the camera shots. Cops have to make split-second decisions in cases like this; we shouldn't second-guess them.
posted by uosuaq at 6:10 PM on January 28, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by uosuaq at 6:10 PM on January 28, 2015 [36 favorites]
More and more it's starting to feel like actually doing anything about this is as big of an ask as single payer, maybe even moreso, because there's the club of omg national security/safety of the children/soft on crime and stuff to beat anyone with who tries to make a change on a major level.
There are other ways to avoid the "you're soft on crime!" thing, at least in the states, by doing ballot initiatives. Thats how we finally reduced the prison population in California a little (Prop 47) despite opposition from police and prosecutors organizations. Much like drug legalization/decriminalization, sometimes its easier to get public support than to get politicians to support something (which on the face of it sounds odd, if the majority of people want something shouldn't that generally mean elected officials would support it? But of course it often doesnt work that way). Policing is a state/local thing anyway.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:10 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
There are other ways to avoid the "you're soft on crime!" thing, at least in the states, by doing ballot initiatives. Thats how we finally reduced the prison population in California a little (Prop 47) despite opposition from police and prosecutors organizations. Much like drug legalization/decriminalization, sometimes its easier to get public support than to get politicians to support something (which on the face of it sounds odd, if the majority of people want something shouldn't that generally mean elected officials would support it? But of course it often doesnt work that way). Policing is a state/local thing anyway.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:10 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can't help but associate this with the capitulation today of Obama's administration to continue the drug war, defend NSA surveillance, and defend the death penalty.
That's what Loretta Lynch's testimony was, right? A capitulation to the police state?
posted by surplus at 6:10 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
That's what Loretta Lynch's testimony was, right? A capitulation to the police state?
posted by surplus at 6:10 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Is this truly the price we've paid for all of those encouraging crime statistics over the past 20 yrs?
And if it turns out that the rise and subsequent fall in crime over the past several decades has indeed been due to the use of leaded gasoline all along, boy, will our faces be as red as our shirts are brown.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:11 PM on January 28, 2015 [24 favorites]
And if it turns out that the rise and subsequent fall in crime over the past several decades has indeed been due to the use of leaded gasoline all along, boy, will our faces be as red as our shirts are brown.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:11 PM on January 28, 2015 [24 favorites]
Much like drug legalization/decriminalization, sometimes its easier to get public support than to get politicians to support something (which on the face of it sounds odd, if the majority of people want something shouldn't that generally mean elected officials would support it? But of course it often doesnt work that way)
Imagine that, a giant security apparatus which sucks up taxpayer money and produces nothing but incarcerated colored people does not want to dismantle itself.
posted by benzenedream at 6:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [20 favorites]
Imagine that, a giant security apparatus which sucks up taxpayer money and produces nothing but incarcerated colored people does not want to dismantle itself.
posted by benzenedream at 6:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [20 favorites]
Looked to me like she was bulking up to run through the camera shots. Cops have to make split-second decisions in cases like this; we shouldn't second-guess them.
Not sure if you're kidding or not? I mean, I don't want to call you a bootlicking apologist if you're just bad at jokes.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
Not sure if you're kidding or not? I mean, I don't want to call you a bootlicking apologist if you're just bad at jokes.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
we shouldn't second-guess them.
Yes. We absolutely fucking should fucking second guess them. Every fucking time. Who watches the watchers? We better. It may already be too late.
posted by chasles at 6:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
Yes. We absolutely fucking should fucking second guess them. Every fucking time. Who watches the watchers? We better. It may already be too late.
posted by chasles at 6:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
what's the legal grounds for what actually happened?
In California, PC 148 covers both resisting arrest and obstructing a police officer, making it an incredibly generic crime. The Merc did a story back in 2009 on the San Jose Police (different department)'s excessive use of resisting arrest charges without any other underlying charges.
My understanding is that there cannot be a resisting arrest charge if the police acted unlawfully in making the arrest, but I don't have a great cite for that.
posted by zachlipton at 6:19 PM on January 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
In California, PC 148 covers both resisting arrest and obstructing a police officer, making it an incredibly generic crime. The Merc did a story back in 2009 on the San Jose Police (different department)'s excessive use of resisting arrest charges without any other underlying charges.
My understanding is that there cannot be a resisting arrest charge if the police acted unlawfully in making the arrest, but I don't have a great cite for that.
posted by zachlipton at 6:19 PM on January 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
@uosuaq: she was "bulking up"? I don't see that at all. What are you referring to?
posted by mmiddle at 6:19 PM on January 28, 2015
posted by mmiddle at 6:19 PM on January 28, 2015
Remain calm. I'm pretty sure uosuaq was just making a Ferguson reference (Wilson told the grand jury that it looked like Brown was "bulking up" to run through the gunshots).
posted by zachlipton at 6:21 PM on January 28, 2015 [62 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 6:21 PM on January 28, 2015 [62 favorites]
a giant security apparatus which sucks up taxpayer money and produces nothing but incarcerated colored people plus profit! does not want to dismantle itself.
FTFY.
Also? Please don't assume that there is a legal justification for this behavior... Cops do what they want to do, and sadly don't have to answer questions from those to whom they are doing it. (Just maybe later, and then maybe it will make a difference. Maybe.)
and I'm pretty sure uosuaq was making a joke that alluded to the Michael Brown homicide, but maybe not.
posted by allthinky at 6:21 PM on January 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
FTFY.
Also? Please don't assume that there is a legal justification for this behavior... Cops do what they want to do, and sadly don't have to answer questions from those to whom they are doing it. (Just maybe later, and then maybe it will make a difference. Maybe.)
and I'm pretty sure uosuaq was making a joke that alluded to the Michael Brown homicide, but maybe not.
posted by allthinky at 6:21 PM on January 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
(I could be kidding and *also* bad at jokes, you know. And yes, it was a "joke". Or irony or something.)
[Also the reference is to Darren Wilson's testimony, not "the crazy liar" witness #40.]
posted by uosuaq at 6:25 PM on January 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
[Also the reference is to Darren Wilson's testimony, not "the crazy liar" witness #40.]
posted by uosuaq at 6:25 PM on January 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
to be fair, she had the eyes of a demon.
posted by Tacodog at 6:30 PM on January 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by Tacodog at 6:30 PM on January 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
A lot of the responses in this thread presuppose that this officer keeps his job. This is San Francisco we're talking about and it's not the sure thing it would be in New York.
In short, I'm storing up my bitter disappointment for later. I don't want to waste on this only to see justice done.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:33 PM on January 28, 2015
In short, I'm storing up my bitter disappointment for later. I don't want to waste on this only to see justice done.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:33 PM on January 28, 2015
This is one of those moments where the protest draws more attention than the underlying injustice. Does the SFPD really feel that comfortable denying people their right to counsel, that they'd be surprised and vengeful when challenged by a public defender? What in the actual fuck?
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:33 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:33 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Sorry, agents of KAOS -- I misread your dichotomy and was in too much of a hurry to respond. I would really not like to derail this thread with a single bitter comment, though.)
posted by uosuaq at 6:34 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by uosuaq at 6:34 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
PDs often get derided as "public pretenders," but a lot of them are perfectly good attorneys--just ridiculously overworked. This whole scene is just awful, but I'm hoping at the very least that the defendant in question sees this as his PD genuinely standing her ground for him.
Not just overworked, chronically understaffed, systematically underpaid and underfunded and constantly the first to feel the pain of budget cuts, as most states regard PDs as somewhere between a nuisance and outright communist agent provocateurs hell bent on destroying decent Christian society from within.
If only more people receiving a public defense had counsel that competent, principled and dedicated.
Im not sure where you practice, but around here the PDs office is often full of some of the best criminal attorneys in the area, 'repeat players' who know the local justice system inside and out as well as staffed with dedicated public servants committed to ensure equal access to representation. And given the legal hiring market lately, you're fairly likely to draw a young public defender who graduated from an Ivy League law school or equivalent, since that's about the only people they've hired the last 3 years. Id much rather take a chance with one of them than some of the private guys around cashing a $2500 check on a DUI first and still losing the case. And Id take the PD's office every time if I was facing life and couldn't afford the ghost of Johnny Cochran. It's just a pity there arent more of them, with more time to concentrate on a given case.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:36 PM on January 28, 2015 [27 favorites]
Not just overworked, chronically understaffed, systematically underpaid and underfunded and constantly the first to feel the pain of budget cuts, as most states regard PDs as somewhere between a nuisance and outright communist agent provocateurs hell bent on destroying decent Christian society from within.
If only more people receiving a public defense had counsel that competent, principled and dedicated.
Im not sure where you practice, but around here the PDs office is often full of some of the best criminal attorneys in the area, 'repeat players' who know the local justice system inside and out as well as staffed with dedicated public servants committed to ensure equal access to representation. And given the legal hiring market lately, you're fairly likely to draw a young public defender who graduated from an Ivy League law school or equivalent, since that's about the only people they've hired the last 3 years. Id much rather take a chance with one of them than some of the private guys around cashing a $2500 check on a DUI first and still losing the case. And Id take the PD's office every time if I was facing life and couldn't afford the ghost of Johnny Cochran. It's just a pity there arent more of them, with more time to concentrate on a given case.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:36 PM on January 28, 2015 [27 favorites]
It's surprising that even after the the head Public Defender contacted the Police Chief, they still didn't release her for over an hour. Hell, I've called the watch commander to report beat officers being jackasses, and that sure didn't take an hour for the call to come over the radio to knock it off.
Is there some kind of larger political fight going on between the police department and the PD office?
posted by ryanrs at 6:37 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is there some kind of larger political fight going on between the police department and the PD office?
posted by ryanrs at 6:37 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is there some kind of larger political fight going on between the police department and the PD office?
Only over the fundamentals of justice and liberty.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 6:45 PM on January 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
Only over the fundamentals of justice and liberty.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 6:45 PM on January 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
What? It's not like they shot her or something.
...this time.
posted by happyroach at 6:48 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
...this time.
posted by happyroach at 6:48 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Crime is down over most developed countries"
Can you cite where you found that factoid?
posted by Oyéah at 6:50 PM on January 28, 2015
Can you cite where you found that factoid?
posted by Oyéah at 6:50 PM on January 28, 2015
What? It's not like they shot her or something.
*checks picture*
Yep, she's white.
posted by Etrigan at 6:52 PM on January 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
*checks picture*
Yep, she's white.
posted by Etrigan at 6:52 PM on January 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
This officer is super-sweet: The Merc says he's the "parolee or probie" guy as well as detailing the unstable ground all parties seem to be battling on. An old report from KGO says before this he was on Wall Street, also only at it six years. Good work, Brian! You're ready for the corporate board!
posted by Ogre Lawless at 6:54 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ogre Lawless at 6:54 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Adachi's office is coming off a huge win against corrupt cops who thought they could search people's rooms without warrants - on video! - because those people were poor and living in SROs. The main cop was found guilty and is facing multiple decades behind bars. Guess where those cops were from? Southern Station. Guess where that is? 850 Bryant, aka Hall of Justice, aka where all this happened today.
posted by rtha at 6:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [79 favorites]
posted by rtha at 6:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [79 favorites]
Holy cats. There's a reason it's called a police state, people. Good on the PD for standing up to them. I hope some -- figurative, thank you very much! -- heads roll in the precinct over this sorry incident.
posted by Gelatin at 7:00 PM on January 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 7:00 PM on January 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think police forces around the country, sitting in their Fox News and facebook bubbles are dangerously underestimating the levels of anger and resentment that are building up, and they're going to be surprised as hell when they accidentally set the tinderbox on fire.
The barricades have been burning across the bay since Oscar Grant was murdered.
posted by bradbane at 7:01 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
The barricades have been burning across the bay since Oscar Grant was murdered.
posted by bradbane at 7:01 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Can you cite where you found that factoid?
Sure, see for instance this article in The Economist from last year - Where have all the burglars gone? The rich world is seeing less and less crime, even in the face of high unemployment and economic stagnation. It's one of those silly semi-paywalls with a three article a week limit, but if you have Chrome you can probably get around that by opening it in an incognito window.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 7:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
Sure, see for instance this article in The Economist from last year - Where have all the burglars gone? The rich world is seeing less and less crime, even in the face of high unemployment and economic stagnation. It's one of those silly semi-paywalls with a three article a week limit, but if you have Chrome you can probably get around that by opening it in an incognito window.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 7:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
Can you cite where you found that factoid?
Sure, see for instance this article in The Economist from last year...
Those commies!
Reporting in from one developed country here:
With only 5,588 incidents per 100,000 people in 2012, Canada's national crime rate reached its lowest level since 1972.
[Canada's] homicide rate has generally been declining since 1975.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:12 PM on January 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sure, see for instance this article in The Economist from last year...
Those commies!
Reporting in from one developed country here:
With only 5,588 incidents per 100,000 people in 2012, Canada's national crime rate reached its lowest level since 1972.
[Canada's] homicide rate has generally been declining since 1975.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:12 PM on January 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
I would imagine she has a strong ethic about attorney/client privledge.
If this is true.
posted by clavdivs at 7:14 PM on January 28, 2015
If this is true.
posted by clavdivs at 7:14 PM on January 28, 2015
Can you cite where you found that factoid?
Latest figures from the CSEW show there were an estimated 7.3 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over) in England and Wales for the year ending March 2014. This represents a 14% decrease compared with the previous year’s survey, and is the lowest estimate since the survey began in 1981.
The CSEW covers a broad range of victim based crimes and includes crimes which do not come to the attention of the police. Decreases were evident for most major crime types compared with the previous year; violence saw a 20% fall, criminal damage fell by 17%, and theft offences decreased by 10%.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Latest figures from the CSEW show there were an estimated 7.3 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over) in England and Wales for the year ending March 2014. This represents a 14% decrease compared with the previous year’s survey, and is the lowest estimate since the survey began in 1981.
The CSEW covers a broad range of victim based crimes and includes crimes which do not come to the attention of the police. Decreases were evident for most major crime types compared with the previous year; violence saw a 20% fall, criminal damage fell by 17%, and theft offences decreased by 10%.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:15 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
less lead in the environment these days.
posted by Auden at 7:17 PM on January 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Auden at 7:17 PM on January 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's one of those silly semi-paywalls
Even the article about the rich being robbed less often requires access to a computer and a fee.
That's so fitting it hurts.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:22 PM on January 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Even the article about the rich being robbed less often requires access to a computer and a fee.
That's so fitting it hurts.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:22 PM on January 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't want to call you a bootlicking apologist if you're just bad at jokes.
I suggest that it's you who's bad at jokes.
posted by Flashman at 7:23 PM on January 28, 2015 [23 favorites]
I suggest that it's you who's bad at jokes.
posted by Flashman at 7:23 PM on January 28, 2015 [23 favorites]
Could this be big-ag variety sexism? (As opposed to garden variety?) The whole incident is like a grown up kid who has spent a life playing computer games, and then reality just got in the way of him using his cell camera, so he chained reality up to the wall for a while.
posted by Oyéah at 7:24 PM on January 28, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 7:24 PM on January 28, 2015
Auden is right. Strange as it seems, the reduction in lead exposure to infants and young children has as much to do as anything else with the reduction in criminal behavior among young adults. And much of the reduction in lead exposure is due to the banning of leaded gasoline many decades ago.
posted by tommyD at 7:27 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tommyD at 7:27 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't get it, she clearly states that she objects and what is the response-"this will just take minute."
It appears these officers planned this. The calm demeanor, more then two officers there (as if expecting trouble)
This is not good.
posted by clavdivs at 7:30 PM on January 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Could this be big-ag variety sexism? (As opposed to garden variety?) The whole
?
posted by clavdivs at 7:32 PM on January 28, 2015
?
posted by clavdivs at 7:32 PM on January 28, 2015
Flashman, agents of KAOS didn't recognize the background to what I was saying, and it was unrealistic of me to assume everyone has been following the Ferguson story in detail. KAOS asked if I was kidding or not; it's fine. There are still real trolls around these parts, I imagine.
Of course, not having read the "Flashman" novels, for all I know you're referring to a running "I suggest that it's you" joke.
posted by uosuaq at 7:34 PM on January 28, 2015
Of course, not having read the "Flashman" novels, for all I know you're referring to a running "I suggest that it's you" joke.
posted by uosuaq at 7:34 PM on January 28, 2015
Does this Stansbury fellow still expect whatever evidence gathered in this way against the young man would even be admissible during trial?
I guess he does.
posted by droplet at 7:42 PM on January 28, 2015
I guess he does.
posted by droplet at 7:42 PM on January 28, 2015
Did that cop really say "I'm arresting you for resisting arrest?"
posted by Catblack at 7:44 PM on January 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 7:44 PM on January 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Even the highly esteemed (I'M KIDDING) Cracked.com has an article today, an interview with an anonymous Public Defender from Georgia turned into listicle format (when will they STOP NUMBERING EVERYTHING?!?) titled: 5 Ways America's Justice System is Designed to Screw You.
Also, it appears to me that the spreading decriminalization of marijuana (and maybe other 'recreational drugs') may be the biggest factor in the next few years to reduce Police Power. And they are not likely to give it up without a fight. In spite of legalized Medical Marijuana, the Sheriff's Department and DA in my not-large Cailfornia County has been treating every small violation by a Dispensary like the owner is a Drug Kingpin, with the enthusiastic support of the DEA. Only lately has the effort begun to fail with the freeing of a group called "The Doobie Dozen" (well, the bigger metro areas get the better nicknames).
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:44 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, it appears to me that the spreading decriminalization of marijuana (and maybe other 'recreational drugs') may be the biggest factor in the next few years to reduce Police Power. And they are not likely to give it up without a fight. In spite of legalized Medical Marijuana, the Sheriff's Department and DA in my not-large Cailfornia County has been treating every small violation by a Dispensary like the owner is a Drug Kingpin, with the enthusiastic support of the DEA. Only lately has the effort begun to fail with the freeing of a group called "The Doobie Dozen" (well, the bigger metro areas get the better nicknames).
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:44 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
How can you be arrested for resisting arrest with the underlying arrest you are resisting also being resisting arrest? That's some Inception-level stuff right there.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on January 28, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on January 28, 2015 [27 favorites]
Does this Stansbury fellow still expect whatever evidence gathered in this way against the young man would even be admissible during trial?
The Chronicle story points out that the legalities here are really quite tricky. What the police are apparently claiming here is that Tillotson's client was a person of interest in a different burglary case. Her client had not been arrested in connection with that other case and didn't invoke his right to counsel. If that holds true, they could well get away with this in terms of not screwing up their case.
That said, this is moronic from a PR and rule of law perspective.
posted by zachlipton at 7:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Chronicle story points out that the legalities here are really quite tricky. What the police are apparently claiming here is that Tillotson's client was a person of interest in a different burglary case. Her client had not been arrested in connection with that other case and didn't invoke his right to counsel. If that holds true, they could well get away with this in terms of not screwing up their case.
That said, this is moronic from a PR and rule of law perspective.
posted by zachlipton at 7:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
“Public defenders have a duty to protect the constitutional rights of he their clients,” Tillotson said at a noontime press conference Wednesday. “It was surreal to be led away in handcuffs for doing my job, something I do every day.”
emptythought: More and more it's starting to feel like actually doing anything about this is as big of an ask as single payer, maybe even moreso, because there's the club of omg national security/safety of the children/soft on crime and stuff to beat anyone with who tries to make a change on a major level.
The thing is that it's asking for something you already have (the right to legal counsel) versus something you should have (single payer - which I agree you should have).
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:59 PM on January 28, 2015
emptythought: More and more it's starting to feel like actually doing anything about this is as big of an ask as single payer, maybe even moreso, because there's the club of omg national security/safety of the children/soft on crime and stuff to beat anyone with who tries to make a change on a major level.
The thing is that it's asking for something you already have (the right to legal counsel) versus something you should have (single payer - which I agree you should have).
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:59 PM on January 28, 2015
> I can dream.
Sorry, but we outlawed dreams years ago.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:59 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sorry, but we outlawed dreams years ago.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:59 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Zachlipton.
I thought that too. But I don't think he stated why they were taking the pictures in specificity. I respect her calm demeanor.
posted by clavdivs at 8:03 PM on January 28, 2015
I thought that too. But I don't think he stated why they were taking the pictures in specificity. I respect her calm demeanor.
posted by clavdivs at 8:03 PM on January 28, 2015
Yeah. If only he had been willing to speak to her like an adult and discuss the situation.
posted by zachlipton at 8:09 PM on January 28, 2015
posted by zachlipton at 8:09 PM on January 28, 2015
Secretaries became administrative assistants and now they are req'd to have a college degree.
Where 2 years once made you an RN, Nursing is rapidly shifting to a 4 year degree required.
So how come Law Enforcement "officers" still get to play gorillas straight out of Planet of the Apes? It somehow seems so ...convenient.
posted by Fupped Duck at 8:24 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Where 2 years once made you an RN, Nursing is rapidly shifting to a 4 year degree required.
So how come Law Enforcement "officers" still get to play gorillas straight out of Planet of the Apes? It somehow seems so ...convenient.
posted by Fupped Duck at 8:24 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Im not sure where you practice, but around here the PDs office is often full of some of the best criminal attorneys in the area
Thank you for saying this; it is distressing to see the same tired stereotypes about public defenders touted here.
posted by likeatoaster at 8:47 PM on January 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Thank you for saying this; it is distressing to see the same tired stereotypes about public defenders touted here.
posted by likeatoaster at 8:47 PM on January 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Getting a job at the SF Public Defender's office is a very competitive process -- from speaking with friends who've applied.
posted by wuwei at 8:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by wuwei at 8:57 PM on January 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
The Chronicle story points out that the legalities here are really quite tricky. What the police are apparently claiming here is that Tillotson's client was a person of interest in a different burglary case. Her client had not been arrested in connection with that other case and didn't invoke his right to counsel. If that holds true, they could well get away with this in terms of not screwing up their case.
Well, fuck.
This is infuriating.
Our Constitutional rights are basically the proverbial frogs in a pot.
posted by droplet at 9:35 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, fuck.
This is infuriating.
Our Constitutional rights are basically the proverbial frogs in a pot.
posted by droplet at 9:35 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is the cops' way of saying, "Time to move, Ms. Tillotson."
posted by ob1quixote at 9:58 PM on January 28, 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 9:58 PM on January 28, 2015
Her client had not been arrested in connection with that other case and didn't invoke his right to counsel.
Am I wrong in thinking you have to be under arrest BEFORE you can invoke a right to counsel? You do not need counsel until you are charged with and allegation, yes? Or did that change somehow?
posted by daq at 10:08 PM on January 28, 2015
Am I wrong in thinking you have to be under arrest BEFORE you can invoke a right to counsel? You do not need counsel until you are charged with and allegation, yes? Or did that change somehow?
posted by daq at 10:08 PM on January 28, 2015
Am I wrong in thinking you have to be under arrest BEFORE you can invoke a right to counsel? You do not need counsel until you are charged with and allegation, yes? Or did that change somehow?
Conversely: the cops wanted to take pictures of Tillotson's client. He clearly wasn't being arrested, and it's unclear if he was being detained. Can the cops compel people to let them take their picture when they aren't being arrested or detained?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:16 PM on January 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Conversely: the cops wanted to take pictures of Tillotson's client. He clearly wasn't being arrested, and it's unclear if he was being detained. Can the cops compel people to let them take their picture when they aren't being arrested or detained?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:16 PM on January 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
SF is the only county in the state where our public defender is elected, and we re-elect Adachi a lot. I'm a pretty big fan of Jeff Adachi and his staff. He likes the media attention, so I have a feeling we're going to be hearing a lot more about this incident from him.
Oh and he makes documentaries in his spare time.
posted by gingerbeer at 10:25 PM on January 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
Oh and he makes documentaries in his spare time.
posted by gingerbeer at 10:25 PM on January 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
Am I wrong in thinking you have to be under arrest BEFORE you can invoke a right to counsel? You do not need counsel until you are charged with and allegation, yes? Or did that change somehow?
My understanding: you don't have a right to have counsel appointed unless and until you're arrested (and if you can afford a lawyer, usually you're paying for it). If the police are just talking to you and you're free to go, they don't have to read you your rights and you have no right to appointed counsel, but you are also free to tell them to sod off while you go call your own lawyer. If the police are temporarily detaining you, you don't have to answer any questions either (except to identify yourself in some states).
The situation here, where someone has been charged with one crime but the police claim they want to question him in connection with another one, can't be unprecedented, but is weird.
posted by zachlipton at 10:51 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
My understanding: you don't have a right to have counsel appointed unless and until you're arrested (and if you can afford a lawyer, usually you're paying for it). If the police are just talking to you and you're free to go, they don't have to read you your rights and you have no right to appointed counsel, but you are also free to tell them to sod off while you go call your own lawyer. If the police are temporarily detaining you, you don't have to answer any questions either (except to identify yourself in some states).
The situation here, where someone has been charged with one crime but the police claim they want to question him in connection with another one, can't be unprecedented, but is weird.
posted by zachlipton at 10:51 PM on January 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
3 seconds into the vid.
Cop: "I just want to take some pictures ok?, then he will be free to go"
Since we don't have on camera what proceeded this exchange, it is impossible for us to guess what happened concerning the cops actions. He did say "then he will be free to go" this suggests the client was not prior to the camera rolling.
Still, I don't believe this was 'innocent officer investigates.'
posted by clavdivs at 11:07 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Cop: "I just want to take some pictures ok?, then he will be free to go"
Since we don't have on camera what proceeded this exchange, it is impossible for us to guess what happened concerning the cops actions. He did say "then he will be free to go" this suggests the client was not prior to the camera rolling.
Still, I don't believe this was 'innocent officer investigates.'
posted by clavdivs at 11:07 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
“Society had a crime problem. It hired cops to attack crime. Now society has a cop problem.”
― Tom Robbins, Still Life with Woodpecker
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:02 AM on January 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
― Tom Robbins, Still Life with Woodpecker
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:02 AM on January 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
you don't have a right to have counsel appointed unless and until you're arrested
Therefore, no one is allowed to retain a lawyer? This is clearly nonsense. Even Hunter Thompson had an attorney.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 1:15 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Therefore, no one is allowed to retain a lawyer? This is clearly nonsense. Even Hunter Thompson had an attorney.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 1:15 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
What? You don't need "the right to" do something to be allowed to do it, but having the right to do it means you can't be prevented. There's no right to go to McDonalds, but people can still do it.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:29 AM on January 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:29 AM on January 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
The situation here, where someone has been charged with one crime but the police claim they want to question him in connection with another one, can't be unprecedented, but is weird.
No, not unprecedented, which is why we know that the 6th Am right to counsel is offense specific. If you're arrested on charge A, there's no right to counsel as to charge B until the right attaches as to that charge.
posted by jpe at 3:50 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
No, not unprecedented, which is why we know that the 6th Am right to counsel is offense specific. If you're arrested on charge A, there's no right to counsel as to charge B until the right attaches as to that charge.
posted by jpe at 3:50 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Interesting learning about Adachi and his office's recent win, thanks rtha and gingerbeer.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:18 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 4:18 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder if the DA's office would be pissed that the officer might have just ruined not only the case he was investigating but the one that the public defender was there to represent. That's the kind of thing that you would think would just drive them absolutely batty.
posted by dances with hamsters at 4:52 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dances with hamsters at 4:52 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Even the highly esteemed (I'M KIDDING) Cracked.com...
To be honest, with articles like that one I hold Cracked.com in higher esteem than many more "respectable" media outlets. And not just Fox News.
posted by TedW at 5:22 AM on January 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
To be honest, with articles like that one I hold Cracked.com in higher esteem than many more "respectable" media outlets. And not just Fox News.
posted by TedW at 5:22 AM on January 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
Auden is right. Strange as it seems, the reduction in lead exposure to infants and young children has as much to do as anything else with the reduction in criminal behavior among young adults.
Did removing lead from petrol spark a decline in crime? [BBC]
Fourteen years ago, Prof Jessica Wolpaw-Reyes, an economist at Amherst College Massachusetts, was pregnant and doing what many expectant mothers do - learning about the risks to her unborn child's health. She started to read up on lead in the environment and, like Nevin before her, began pondering its link to crime.
"Everyone was trying to understand why crime was going down," she recalls. "So I wanted to test if there was a causal link between lead and violent crime and the way I did that was to look at the removal of leaded petrol from US states in the 1970s, to see if that could be linked to patterns of crime reduction in the 1990s."
Wolpaw-Reyes gathered lead data from each state, including figures for gasoline sales. She plotted the crime rates in each area and then used common statistical techniques to exclude other factors that could cause crime. Her results backed the lead-crime hypothesis.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:00 AM on January 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
Did removing lead from petrol spark a decline in crime? [BBC]
Fourteen years ago, Prof Jessica Wolpaw-Reyes, an economist at Amherst College Massachusetts, was pregnant and doing what many expectant mothers do - learning about the risks to her unborn child's health. She started to read up on lead in the environment and, like Nevin before her, began pondering its link to crime.
"Everyone was trying to understand why crime was going down," she recalls. "So I wanted to test if there was a causal link between lead and violent crime and the way I did that was to look at the removal of leaded petrol from US states in the 1970s, to see if that could be linked to patterns of crime reduction in the 1990s."
Wolpaw-Reyes gathered lead data from each state, including figures for gasoline sales. She plotted the crime rates in each area and then used common statistical techniques to exclude other factors that could cause crime. Her results backed the lead-crime hypothesis.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:00 AM on January 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
And the remainder of the reduction in lead poisoning has to do with the Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act of 1992 (which took effect in 1996).
If you accept that removal of lead from gasoline was responsible for the 1992-2002 drop in crime, then you need to accept that the Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act is responsible for the breathtaking drop in juvenile crime since 2007.
posted by The Giant Squid at 6:52 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you accept that removal of lead from gasoline was responsible for the 1992-2002 drop in crime, then you need to accept that the Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act is responsible for the breathtaking drop in juvenile crime since 2007.
posted by The Giant Squid at 6:52 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Judge says prosecutors should follow the law. Prosecutors revolt. (via Cracked.com)
posted by jeffburdges at 7:21 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 7:21 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
The lead thing is just a perfect illustration of our central sociopolitical problem: Our politics are all concerned with social sentiments and personal identity issues, personal accountability, blame, etc., but our actual substantive problems are systemic, large-scale, and really from a certain POV, impersonal. As the technical infrastructure of our world increases in complexity, we need our leaders to be more like highly-skilled complex systems theorists than used car salesmen and marketing consultants, but the kind of candidates our political process produces are more likely to be socially-adept charismatic talking heads than heavyweight abstract thinkers. Nobody in the system is doing the hard, systemic thinking that needs to be done; everyone expects that work to just sort of shake out naturally through the deliberative process but it doesn't because even the deliberative process doesn't engage seriously with the substance of the issues--our debates are just political theater, in which all sides assume they already have the best answers and are advocating for them through the deliberative process, not using the process to attempt to derive the best options to meet everybody's needs.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:22 AM on January 29, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 7:22 AM on January 29, 2015 [18 favorites]
As the technical infrastructure of our world increases in complexity, we need our leaders to be more like highly-skilled complex systems theorists than used car salesmen and marketing consultants, but the kind of candidates our political process produces are more likely to be socially-adept charismatic talking heads than heavyweight abstract thinkers.
We once had many academic systems theorists working for the federal government and military, though, and it brought us a house of horrors (though it is somewhat simplistic, Adam Curtis' documentary "All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace" is a good exploration of some of the reasons why this turned out to be the case.) In order to develop systems and systems theorists capable of producing a sane, healthy society, we'd first need a fundamental shift in goals and values.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:19 AM on January 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
We once had many academic systems theorists working for the federal government and military, though, and it brought us a house of horrors (though it is somewhat simplistic, Adam Curtis' documentary "All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace" is a good exploration of some of the reasons why this turned out to be the case.) In order to develop systems and systems theorists capable of producing a sane, healthy society, we'd first need a fundamental shift in goals and values.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:19 AM on January 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
I haven't seen anyone discuss this in the thread but, why do these young men need to agree to be photographed by a police officer with his cell phone? If they aren't under arrest, and in a public space, they can just hide their faces right? I know that the police have way too much power right now, however, these two young men had no need to submit (but in doing they would be arrested), right? Help me out here.
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:34 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:34 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
No disagreement here, ryanshepard.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:47 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 8:47 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
why do these young men need to agree to be photographed by a police officer with his cell phone?
Their LAWYER OBJECTED TO IT. At that point, the police really should have to explain their need to the Judge, don't you think since there's that whole thing about "You have the right to an attorney before questioning" thing, and then there's the question about the unofficial nature of personal pictures taken on non-departmental issued equipment. Who's to say it's not intended to intimidate or to be used for personal retaliation?
After all, the fixed video surveillance cameras certainly provide for all *legitimate* law-enforcement needs, and no-one needs to post pictures from their iPhone, right? The whole thing doesn't pass the smell-test.
posted by mikelieman at 9:36 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Their LAWYER OBJECTED TO IT. At that point, the police really should have to explain their need to the Judge, don't you think since there's that whole thing about "You have the right to an attorney before questioning" thing, and then there's the question about the unofficial nature of personal pictures taken on non-departmental issued equipment. Who's to say it's not intended to intimidate or to be used for personal retaliation?
After all, the fixed video surveillance cameras certainly provide for all *legitimate* law-enforcement needs, and no-one needs to post pictures from their iPhone, right? The whole thing doesn't pass the smell-test.
posted by mikelieman at 9:36 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Fupped Duck: Secretaries became administrative assistants and now they are req'd to have a college degree.That's an interesting bias. Fact: many police departments require 4-year degrees for advancement, and in some cases, hiring.
Where 2 years once made you an RN, Nursing is rapidly shifting to a 4 year degree required.
So how come Law Enforcement "officers" still get to play gorillas straight out of Planet of the Apes? It somehow seems so ...convenient.
A B.A./B.S. hardly warranties someone against brutal use of power.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:38 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is another theory on the reduction in crime that links it to increased access to birth control and abortion. Of course both could be a factor. The US might be the unfortunate test bed for separating out those two correlations.
posted by Mitheral at 9:57 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 9:57 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
"If they aren't under arrest, and in a public space, they can just hide their faces right?"
Though possibly irrelevant, courthouses are not inherently public spaces for the purposes of photography, and most restrict photography.
posted by klangklangston at 9:59 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Though possibly irrelevant, courthouses are not inherently public spaces for the purposes of photography, and most restrict photography.
posted by klangklangston at 9:59 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
The US might be the unfortunate test bed for separating out those two correlations.
Unfortunately, that may not happen. The same folks that want to roll back the clock on family planning also want to scrap the environmental regulations that among other things got the lead out.
posted by TedW at 10:41 AM on January 29, 2015
Unfortunately, that may not happen. The same folks that want to roll back the clock on family planning also want to scrap the environmental regulations that among other things got the lead out.
posted by TedW at 10:41 AM on January 29, 2015
There is another theory on the reduction in crime that links it to increased access to birth control and abortion.
Which has been pretty much discredited across the board. The only reason it gets mentioned anymore is because of who one of the authors is - Steven Levitt, author of Freakanomics, who added it to the book.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:58 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Which has been pretty much discredited across the board. The only reason it gets mentioned anymore is because of who one of the authors is - Steven Levitt, author of Freakanomics, who added it to the book.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:58 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Steven Levitt, author of Freakanomics
And Freakonomics says a bunch of stupid, racist and outright wrong shit under the guise of their "we're just telling it like it is" disclaimer. Fortunately, their blog tanked after they farted some BS about climate change, but little chestnuts like that still stick around.
posted by lkc at 12:00 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
And Freakonomics says a bunch of stupid, racist and outright wrong shit under the guise of their "we're just telling it like it is" disclaimer. Fortunately, their blog tanked after they farted some BS about climate change, but little chestnuts like that still stick around.
posted by lkc at 12:00 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Cop sprays guy on cellphone with pepper spray for no apparent reason.
posted by leotrotsky at 2:09 PM on January 29, 2015
posted by leotrotsky at 2:09 PM on January 29, 2015
Christ, it was a reference to the crazy Ferguson liar witness, people.
Poe's law has superpowers when it comes to police apologia.
Am I wrong in thinking you have to be under arrest BEFORE you can invoke a right to counsel? You do not need counsel until you are charged with and allegation, yes? Or did that change somehow?
This comes down to detention - are you actually free to go or not? You can of course have an attorney at any point or constantly. The question is do you have a right to have them with you?
I suspect this is a grudge arrest because she pissed all over his efforts to use the bullshit end run option cops love to use - it's just a request, they could just decline! - when trying to compel people into shit without actually having the right to compel them. If he actually detained this person he'd absolutely have the right to have her present. Assuming they had sufficient cause to be able to detain him for this. By getting up in his face and actually informing her client she ruined that.
Her client had not been arrested in connection with that other case and didn't invoke his right to counsel. If that holds true, they could well get away with this in terms of not screwing up their case.
That said, this is moronic from a PR and rule of law perspective.
Oh, our rule of law perspective on this issue is royally screwed up all over the place, IMNSHO. I have googled too much law today so someone else can come up with it, but recently the supremes said that a prisoner in prison should not have presumed that he wasn't free to leave the conversation when the cops came in to to talk to him. In the prison run by the state, and which he can't leave. As if INS v Delgago wasn't fucking insane enough already. You can also google up the recent case saying that if you want your 5th Am protection you have to SAY you're choosing to remain silent or your remaining silent CAN be used against you.
I don't need a mouth guard for sleeping, I need one for when I read these stories. I'm going to grind away my teeth before 50.
posted by phearlez at 2:21 PM on January 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Poe's law has superpowers when it comes to police apologia.
Am I wrong in thinking you have to be under arrest BEFORE you can invoke a right to counsel? You do not need counsel until you are charged with and allegation, yes? Or did that change somehow?
This comes down to detention - are you actually free to go or not? You can of course have an attorney at any point or constantly. The question is do you have a right to have them with you?
I suspect this is a grudge arrest because she pissed all over his efforts to use the bullshit end run option cops love to use - it's just a request, they could just decline! - when trying to compel people into shit without actually having the right to compel them. If he actually detained this person he'd absolutely have the right to have her present. Assuming they had sufficient cause to be able to detain him for this. By getting up in his face and actually informing her client she ruined that.
Her client had not been arrested in connection with that other case and didn't invoke his right to counsel. If that holds true, they could well get away with this in terms of not screwing up their case.
That said, this is moronic from a PR and rule of law perspective.
Oh, our rule of law perspective on this issue is royally screwed up all over the place, IMNSHO. I have googled too much law today so someone else can come up with it, but recently the supremes said that a prisoner in prison should not have presumed that he wasn't free to leave the conversation when the cops came in to to talk to him. In the prison run by the state, and which he can't leave. As if INS v Delgago wasn't fucking insane enough already. You can also google up the recent case saying that if you want your 5th Am protection you have to SAY you're choosing to remain silent or your remaining silent CAN be used against you.
I don't need a mouth guard for sleeping, I need one for when I read these stories. I'm going to grind away my teeth before 50.
posted by phearlez at 2:21 PM on January 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think the police officer may have been lying about wanting to take a photo; it's more likely that this was an excuse to talk to a suspect in the absence of his lawyer. If so, having a lawyer around going "I advise you not to say anything" would certainly interfere with the program. I wonder whether this attempt to deny the assistance of legal counsel amounts to a civil rights violation? I know that persons not under arrest do not have the right to counsel, but perhaps they still have the right not to be denied access to counsel.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:28 PM on January 29, 2015
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:28 PM on January 29, 2015
I don't perceive a civil rights violation from what there is to work with here. Most likely a violation of civil liberties.
posted by clavdivs at 11:32 PM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 11:32 PM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn't make it worse."
posted by umberto at 12:14 AM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by umberto at 12:14 AM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
"What do these TV cop shows mean?
Do they spring from some perverse plot cooked up by "deviant" parallel intelligence services that are using the right-winged government to extol the virtues of the enemies of the people?"
-Eco
posted by clavdivs at 12:40 AM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Do they spring from some perverse plot cooked up by "deviant" parallel intelligence services that are using the right-winged government to extol the virtues of the enemies of the people?"
-Eco
posted by clavdivs at 12:40 AM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did you guys hear the Morning Edition segment on this today? The reporter, Martin Kaste, was very matter-of-fact in describing how anything other than immediate capitulation to any request from a police officer is likely to get you arrested. It's interesting that a mainstream news medium is openly acknowledging the problem.
posted by workerant at 7:39 AM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by workerant at 7:39 AM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Given the percentage of the population that always blames the victim, are you sure they are acknowledging something they think is a problem?
posted by phearlez at 8:32 AM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 8:32 AM on January 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
What do these TV cop shows mean?
Also...
Tales from the cutting-room floor: The reality of “reality-based” television.
Pdf here:"The viewers won't see the prostitutes - disheveled, shocked, sobbing - telling their stories to the amused officers and producers."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:22 AM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also...
Tales from the cutting-room floor: The reality of “reality-based” television.
Pdf here:"The viewers won't see the prostitutes - disheveled, shocked, sobbing - telling their stories to the amused officers and producers."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:22 AM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Cops go on reckless shooting spree, hail of gunfire while speeding in prius
posted by jeffburdges at 5:21 PM on January 30, 2015
posted by jeffburdges at 5:21 PM on January 30, 2015
incredibly disturbing mandolin conspiracy, what i managed to skim.
posted by twist my arm at 10:40 AM on January 31, 2015
posted by twist my arm at 10:40 AM on January 31, 2015
a public defender: Cops’ thuggery continues unabated; now they’ve moved on to arresting lawyers
Via
posted by homunculus at 10:15 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Via
posted by homunculus at 10:15 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
San Francisco police will not pursue charges against the deputy public defender who was arrested at the Hall of Justice when she objected to city police officers questioning a client outside a courtroom, Police Chief Greg Suhr said Wednesday.
posted by rtha at 3:51 AM on February 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 3:51 AM on February 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Suhr's defense of the arrest: “The rules of engagement have long been that the courtroom is sacrosanct, but the hallways have always been a public area,” Suhr said. “I do find it a little ironic that the protest was over taking a picture at the same time a video was taken and shown to millions of people.”
Well yes, exactly. Your department probably has photos, and could easily have taken some more. So why would the alleged need for a photograph justify taking these clients aside and talking to them without their lawyer present?
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:29 PM on February 5, 2015
Well yes, exactly. Your department probably has photos, and could easily have taken some more. So why would the alleged need for a photograph justify taking these clients aside and talking to them without their lawyer present?
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:29 PM on February 5, 2015
Well, yeah, and sorry cops but you're public servants. That means that the public has more of a right to document your actions than you can demand of a private citizen. That's because if you aren't held to that higher standard, the temptation to abuse your authority becomes too strong.
posted by klangklangston at 1:09 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by klangklangston at 1:09 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
NYPD Commish Bratton Seeks To Make Resisting Arrest A Felony
posted by jeffburdges at 3:13 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 3:13 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fixed for actual intent: NYPD Commish Bratton Seeks To Make Resisting Arrest Contempt of Cop A Felony
posted by phearlez at 8:45 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by phearlez at 8:45 AM on February 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by localroger at 5:47 PM on January 28, 2015 [12 favorites]