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December 23, 2016 10:00 AM Subscribe
As Rogue One plays, the US Electoral College, despite possible rebellions and protests, votes: 304 for Donald Trump, 227 for Hillary Clinton, 3 for Colin Powell, and 1 each for Faith Spotted Eagle, Bernie Sanders, Ron Paul and John Kasich. On the squawk mortar, the former obsessive green ink letter writer tussles with POTUS #42 and gets nuclear (more), while the current POTUS restricts offshore drilling and stays a figure of hope. With the inauguration and ball less than a month away, the stage is being built while performers are still being negotiated. Retrospections and speculations on what the wounded Democratic Party and liberals do next, and who leads, abounds. Meanwhile, liberals are arming, Pence is interpreting, Estonians are worried, North Carolina is undemocratic and funding signs are ominous.
Housekeeping. Please...
* Don't go after each other, don't poke known sore points, do debate in context.
* Take it to Chat for context-free, exclamations and other existential reactions.
* Check before submitting a link whether it's already been done in this thread.
* Don't paste huge swathes of text from somewhere you're linking to anyway.
* If needed there are self-care recommendations from the mods, or try writing or commenting on a non-political post on MetaFilter, good nutrition, sleep or company, or walk away from screens and look at nature for a while.
For legacy content see the many posts tagged with election2016. Despite the election fast receeding, the reference wiki explains some of the terminology used in comments on these threads.
MetaFilter
Where it's at.
* Why Teen Vogue is killing it. (additional)
* I may love this red clay land, but it doesn't always love me.
* Indivisible: A Practical Guide for Resisting the Trump Agenda.
* "California will launch its own damn satellite."
* Distributional National Accounts: Trading Places.
Elsewhere, a singer is found for the inauguration, protestors have a plan, Sam and Glenn wear sweaters, and the adventures of Sunny and Bo.
AskMeFi
For questions to be answered.
* Anti-fascist tactics reading list?
* How to fill a trump piñata?
* Books about morals & civics to give to civic-minded moral Trump voters.
* How Can I Help Scientists and/or Others?
* Flame this tiny bit of hope.
For less talk, more action: threeturtles runs "a secret FB group (with a good number of Mefi members) that is hopefully laser focused on actions and not chat, debate, or feel-good stories."
Projects and MetaTalk
For works, gripes, meta-discussion and ponies.
* On the Responsibilities of White American Women.
* Moral Metafilter: What have you done this week?
* How much framing does an FPP need?
* Friendsmas.
The post title denotes the margin of people - as opposed to Electoral College - votes which Hillary exceeded Donald's total by (as mentioned in).
Housekeeping. Please...
* Don't go after each other, don't poke known sore points, do debate in context.
* Take it to Chat for context-free, exclamations and other existential reactions.
* Check before submitting a link whether it's already been done in this thread.
* Don't paste huge swathes of text from somewhere you're linking to anyway.
* If needed there are self-care recommendations from the mods, or try writing or commenting on a non-political post on MetaFilter, good nutrition, sleep or company, or walk away from screens and look at nature for a while.
For legacy content see the many posts tagged with election2016. Despite the election fast receeding, the reference wiki explains some of the terminology used in comments on these threads.
MetaFilter
Where it's at.
* Why Teen Vogue is killing it. (additional)
* I may love this red clay land, but it doesn't always love me.
* Indivisible: A Practical Guide for Resisting the Trump Agenda.
* "California will launch its own damn satellite."
* Distributional National Accounts: Trading Places.
Elsewhere, a singer is found for the inauguration, protestors have a plan, Sam and Glenn wear sweaters, and the adventures of Sunny and Bo.
AskMeFi
For questions to be answered.
* Anti-fascist tactics reading list?
* How to fill a trump piñata?
* Books about morals & civics to give to civic-minded moral Trump voters.
* How Can I Help Scientists and/or Others?
* Flame this tiny bit of hope.
For less talk, more action: threeturtles runs "a secret FB group (with a good number of Mefi members) that is hopefully laser focused on actions and not chat, debate, or feel-good stories."
Projects and MetaTalk
For works, gripes, meta-discussion and ponies.
* On the Responsibilities of White American Women.
* Moral Metafilter: What have you done this week?
* How much framing does an FPP need?
* Friendsmas.
The post title denotes the margin of people - as opposed to Electoral College - votes which Hillary exceeded Donald's total by (as mentioned in).
The various newspapers didn't have to print Carl Paladino's comments, but they chose to.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed, let's skip quoting some racist fucker's racist fuckery in-thread.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [55 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [55 favorites]
The scuffle over finding someone (anyone!) to play at the inauguration is kind of amusing at this point. Of course, until it gets nasty, which it's about to.
Last night it was announced the Radio City Rockettes would perform, whereupon one of the Rockettes posted an angry rant about the situation. The dancers' union is saying there's no problem, the show goes on.
So now we'll have Trump vs the Rockettes on Twitter for the next 24 hours. If it keeps him from making the nuclear arms situation any worse, I guess that's a good thing?
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:07 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Last night it was announced the Radio City Rockettes would perform, whereupon one of the Rockettes posted an angry rant about the situation. The dancers' union is saying there's no problem, the show goes on.
So now we'll have Trump vs the Rockettes on Twitter for the next 24 hours. If it keeps him from making the nuclear arms situation any worse, I guess that's a good thing?
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:07 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Hopefully the tweets about nuclear arms aren't distractions from inauguration tweets.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would like to plainly state that this country has officially broken my heart but not my spirit to survive because being black in america is what you do, the principles of this country are on plain display and it really doesn't include me unless I submit to them, which I refuse. The gaslighting on display are inherent to american culture and it really is disappointing, however, I no longer feel paranoia, just sad that it's all true.
posted by reedcourtneyj at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2016 [75 favorites]
posted by reedcourtneyj at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2016 [75 favorites]
I called the Rockettes' dancer's union this morning to complain about the lack of support for dancers who don't want to perform; you can contact them at 212-675-1003. I called the NYC office, but I imagine you could contact the California one as well. And you can email the Radio City leadership specifically at feedbackradiocity@MSG.com. No one ought to be forced to dance for this asshole unless they want to, especially if they're worried about their careers--dancing being, of course, a fairly precarious position as I understand it.
posted by sciatrix at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
hoyoooo
posted by cortex at 10:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [59 favorites]
posted by cortex at 10:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [59 favorites]
i have refrained from commenting in these threads
let me just say
doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM
posted by lalochezia at 10:14 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
let me just say
doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM doom doom DOOM
posted by lalochezia at 10:14 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
It looks like the inauguration is going to be voluntary for the Rockettes...
http://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Updated-Madison-Square-Garden-Responds-to-Rockettes-Inauguration-Performance-Now-Voluntary-20161223
"The Radio City Rockettes are proud to participate in the 58th Presidential Inaugural," read the statement emailed to BroadwayWorld shortly after noon EST. "For a Rockette to be considered for an event, they must voluntarily sign up and are never told they have to perform at a particular event, including the inaugural. It is always their choice. In fact, for the coming inauguration, we had more Rockettes request to participate than we have slots available. We eagerly await the inaugural celebrations."
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 10:14 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
http://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Updated-Madison-Square-Garden-Responds-to-Rockettes-Inauguration-Performance-Now-Voluntary-20161223
"The Radio City Rockettes are proud to participate in the 58th Presidential Inaugural," read the statement emailed to BroadwayWorld shortly after noon EST. "For a Rockette to be considered for an event, they must voluntarily sign up and are never told they have to perform at a particular event, including the inaugural. It is always their choice. In fact, for the coming inauguration, we had more Rockettes request to participate than we have slots available. We eagerly await the inaugural celebrations."
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 10:14 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
The "The so-called "A" list celebrities are all wanting tixs to the inauguration, but look what they did for Hillary, NOTHING. I want the PEOPLE!" Tweet is just such a perfect example of what a child he is.
Dear Donald-- which celebrities wanted tickets but you refused?
**crickets**
posted by Static Vagabond at 10:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
Dear Donald-- which celebrities wanted tickets but you refused?
**crickets**
posted by Static Vagabond at 10:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
It looks like the inauguration is going to be voluntary for the Rockettes...
Only some of them:
Only some of them:
The email concluded in bolded, underlined font: "If you are not full time, you do not have to sign up to do this work. If you are full time, you are obligated.posted by mordax at 10:17 AM on December 23, 2016 [38 favorites]
The scuffle over finding someone (anyone!) to play at the inauguration is kind of amusing at this point.
I think it's just stupid, as is the whole pie-in-the-sky dreaming about a "freedom concert" (part of a long list of other pie-in-the-sky pipe dreams this election season).
It's the Presidential Inauguration. Give it the respect that it deserves, and let the Trump team worry about trying to attract star talent. Every time a "liberal" sneers at Trump like this ("he's so unpopular, no big name star wants to perform for him") it isn't just an insult to Trump (an insult Trump rightfully deserves), it's an insult to the people who voted for him. Which is fine, I guess. But politics should be about somehow building bridges, not blowing them up.
posted by My Dad at 10:20 AM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
I think it's just stupid, as is the whole pie-in-the-sky dreaming about a "freedom concert" (part of a long list of other pie-in-the-sky pipe dreams this election season).
It's the Presidential Inauguration. Give it the respect that it deserves, and let the Trump team worry about trying to attract star talent. Every time a "liberal" sneers at Trump like this ("he's so unpopular, no big name star wants to perform for him") it isn't just an insult to Trump (an insult Trump rightfully deserves), it's an insult to the people who voted for him. Which is fine, I guess. But politics should be about somehow building bridges, not blowing them up.
posted by My Dad at 10:20 AM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Meanwhile, here in west Michigan representative Bill Huizenga (R-Galt's Gulch) deliberately delayed taking his kid to the hospital so he could score some points with the anti-Obamacare crowd.
In effect, he says that in order to protect the profit margins of health-care providers, people should self-diagnose their illnesses and injuries, and only go to the hospital if they REALLY need to.
posted by JohnFromGR at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [32 favorites]
In effect, he says that in order to protect the profit margins of health-care providers, people should self-diagnose their illnesses and injuries, and only go to the hospital if they REALLY need to.
posted by JohnFromGR at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [32 favorites]
The union initially said that all full-time Rockettes would have to perform if their employer required it. Later, the employer (Radio City) said they could bow out if they wished.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016
Dear Donald-- which celebrities wanted tickets but you refused?
I'm sure we'll find out right after he holds a press conference, discloses his tax returns, and admits that he really lost the popular vote.
posted by localhuman at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
I'm sure we'll find out right after he holds a press conference, discloses his tax returns, and admits that he really lost the popular vote.
posted by localhuman at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
I was only seven when the USSR dissolved, so I never really got to feel the constant existential terror that comes with a looming-yet-uncertain threat of nuclear Armageddon. It's so nice of the PEOTUS to let me have the same experience my parents did!
(Bright side: I work comfortably within the DC blast radius, so it'll be over quick.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
(Bright side: I work comfortably within the DC blast radius, so it'll be over quick.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
Well, I guess if anyone was looking to get presidential approval of copyright reform, right after the all kazoo band inauguration will probably be the best time to try it.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:23 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 10:23 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's the Presidential Inauguration. Give it the respect that it deserves, and let the Trump team worry about trying to attract star talent. Every time a "liberal" sneers at Trump like this ("he's so unpopular, no big name star wants to perform for him") it isn't just an insult to Trump (an insult Trump rightfully deserves), it's an insult to the people who voted for him. Which is fine, I guess. But politics should be about somehow building bridges, not blowing them up.
Name three bridges that Trump, his supporters, or his team has built to his opponents. No, name one.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:24 AM on December 23, 2016 [150 favorites]
Name three bridges that Trump, his supporters, or his team has built to his opponents. No, name one.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:24 AM on December 23, 2016 [150 favorites]
He appears to be teaming up with Russia so they can have an arms race? Is that what I am seeing?
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't know about you all, but in the past 24 hours or so, I've been telling all the people I care about that I love them. Probably a good thing to do at any time, but now I'm genuinely worried that if I don't do it now I'll never get the chance.
posted by holborne at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by holborne at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
But politics should be about somehow building bridges, not blowing them up.
Tell that to them.
posted by chris24 at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Tell that to them.
posted by chris24 at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
But politics should be about somehow building bridges, not blowing them up.
My strategy is going to be to relentlessly mock them at every turn over the next 4 years. We shouldn't insult them? C'mon, their very presence in the White House is an insult.
Also, trolls hate being laughed at. So it's really the least we can do.
posted by monospace at 10:27 AM on December 23, 2016 [67 favorites]
My strategy is going to be to relentlessly mock them at every turn over the next 4 years. We shouldn't insult them? C'mon, their very presence in the White House is an insult.
Also, trolls hate being laughed at. So it's really the least we can do.
posted by monospace at 10:27 AM on December 23, 2016 [67 favorites]
I know it's linked in the body of the post, but sometimes folks skim over the latter-half stuff and I believe it is important to double mention the Moral MetaFilter post over in MetaTalk by sciatrix. I'm still working on a codex of actions that I can take and can share with others and this thread has been very, very helpful.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:27 AM on December 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 10:27 AM on December 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
Every time a "liberal" sneers at Trump like this ("he's so unpopular, no big name star wants to perform for him") it isn't just an insult to Trump (an insult Trump rightfully deserves), it's an insult to the people who voted for him.
We shouldn't be calling republican voters inbred tobacco-chewin-and-spittoon-pingin' rednecks, true. The common and casual use of that kind of language helped alienate his electorate from us and helped him win. But this discussion isn't directed at Trump voters specifically; it more points out how distanced the entirety of the performing arts is from the incoming administration. That's worth noting.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:28 AM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
We shouldn't be calling republican voters inbred tobacco-chewin-and-spittoon-pingin' rednecks, true. The common and casual use of that kind of language helped alienate his electorate from us and helped him win. But this discussion isn't directed at Trump voters specifically; it more points out how distanced the entirety of the performing arts is from the incoming administration. That's worth noting.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:28 AM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
The only positive thing I can say about Trump voters is that they will most likely suffer as much as us.
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on December 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on December 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
Welcome to The 21st Century Nuclear Crusades!
posted by valkane at 10:29 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by valkane at 10:29 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
> It's the Presidential Inauguration. Give it the respect that it deserves
You're exactly right. I, for one, plan to give Trump all of the respect he showed to Obama.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:32 AM on December 23, 2016 [74 favorites]
You're exactly right. I, for one, plan to give Trump all of the respect he showed to Obama.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:32 AM on December 23, 2016 [74 favorites]
I mean, I personally find it really difficult to look at someone who voted for him and hold back the urge to ask if they gave one iota of thought about all the people that would be negatively affected by everything he's done and said and the truly deplorable groups that supports him.
posted by numaner at 10:32 AM on December 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by numaner at 10:32 AM on December 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
It's the Presidential Inauguration. Give it the respect that it deserves
Probably best to ignore it as much as possible.
posted by Artw at 10:34 AM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
Probably best to ignore it as much as possible.
posted by Artw at 10:34 AM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
I mean, I personally find it really difficult to look at someone who voted for him and hold back the urge to ask if they gave one iota of thought about all the people that would be negatively affected by everything he's done and said and the truly deplorable groups that supports him.
The only positive thing I can say about Trump voters is that they will most likely suffer as much as us.
I understand and often feel the same way. But Trump voters and non-voters comprise over 70% of my neighbors and a large portion of them are either culture-bound to oppose the "establishment" or have been failed by education and mass-media tremendously. I know them and like them and have hope for many of them. Definitely an element of cognitive dissonance here but I really strongly feel that permanently dismissing every person who voted for Trump is a terrible mistake.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:37 AM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
The only positive thing I can say about Trump voters is that they will most likely suffer as much as us.
I understand and often feel the same way. But Trump voters and non-voters comprise over 70% of my neighbors and a large portion of them are either culture-bound to oppose the "establishment" or have been failed by education and mass-media tremendously. I know them and like them and have hope for many of them. Definitely an element of cognitive dissonance here but I really strongly feel that permanently dismissing every person who voted for Trump is a terrible mistake.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:37 AM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
Not one iota of respect, legitimacy, politeness, or decency will I yield Trump or any Republican who backs him. Not one inch of ideological ground will I concede to those who destroy American democracy and freedom to line their own pockets; not one moment of respect for those who erode our institutions and sell our elections to foreign nations for their own gain.
Not. one. iota.
I don't actually care so much about the Freedom concert, but I will in no way yield to him the legitimacy of calling his inauguration respectful. After all, it's not as if Trump and his supporters give half a wet shit about respect for the actual values and institutions that hold up America. Why the hell should I concede to him the legitimacy of his stolen office?
posted by sciatrix at 10:38 AM on December 23, 2016 [146 favorites]
Not. one. iota.
I don't actually care so much about the Freedom concert, but I will in no way yield to him the legitimacy of calling his inauguration respectful. After all, it's not as if Trump and his supporters give half a wet shit about respect for the actual values and institutions that hold up America. Why the hell should I concede to him the legitimacy of his stolen office?
posted by sciatrix at 10:38 AM on December 23, 2016 [146 favorites]
When I look at someone who voted for him I never forget that the ones who "aren't" racists/fascists/misogynists/traitors ignored all that and voted to put me, my family, and the entire planet at risk so the 1% could pay a couple percent less in the highest tax bracket.
So fuck them.
posted by chris24 at 10:39 AM on December 23, 2016 [149 favorites]
So fuck them.
posted by chris24 at 10:39 AM on December 23, 2016 [149 favorites]
Entertainers boycotting Donald Trump is not a winning strategy -- yet another suspect elite lining up against real America.
But Tom Hanks running for President as a Democrat in 2020 probably is a winning strategy -- universally beloved celebrity beats continuum-between-hated-and-sort-of-admired celebrity.
It's confusing.
posted by MattD at 10:39 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
But Tom Hanks running for President as a Democrat in 2020 probably is a winning strategy -- universally beloved celebrity beats continuum-between-hated-and-sort-of-admired celebrity.
It's confusing.
posted by MattD at 10:39 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Also we must, must start making a distinction between Trump voters and vigorous Trump supporters. The latter is a significantly smaller group then the former and deserves much different regard and treatment.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:40 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:40 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
Ugh, my son's high-school's marching band is playing the inaugural parade. Reason 1001 why I'm happy we moved away from that hellish western PA suburb and into the city.
posted by octothorpe at 10:41 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:41 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump Aide Partnered With Firm Run by Man With Alleged KGB Ties:
Donald Trump’s national security adviser, Michael Flynn, partnered this year with a controversial technology company co-run by a man once convicted of trying to sell stolen biotech material to the Russian KGB espionage agency.
But wait, there's more...
Flynn tested the product himself, Ika said. He put on the helmet-like headpiece fitted with sensors, which is said to read a subject’s brainwaves in an attempt to detect information.
“He found it very convincing,” Ika said.
Flynn’s activities with the company continued after he began receiving classified intelligence briefings in mid-August as part of Trump’s campaign. In late September, Ika said, he and Flynn pitched Brainwave to officials from the Bangladeshi defense forces during a meeting at Flynn’s offices.
Everything's fine.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:41 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
Donald Trump’s national security adviser, Michael Flynn, partnered this year with a controversial technology company co-run by a man once convicted of trying to sell stolen biotech material to the Russian KGB espionage agency.
But wait, there's more...
Flynn tested the product himself, Ika said. He put on the helmet-like headpiece fitted with sensors, which is said to read a subject’s brainwaves in an attempt to detect information.
“He found it very convincing,” Ika said.
Flynn’s activities with the company continued after he began receiving classified intelligence briefings in mid-August as part of Trump’s campaign. In late September, Ika said, he and Flynn pitched Brainwave to officials from the Bangladeshi defense forces during a meeting at Flynn’s offices.
Everything's fine.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:41 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
Also we must, must start making a distinction between Trump voters and vigorous Trump supporters. The latter is a significantly smaller group then the former and deserves much different regard and treatment.
Nope.
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [68 favorites]
Nope.
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [68 favorites]
I work in DC, and my office is still deciding whether we will be off (as apparently we have for the last three or four inaugurations), WFH, or just Mad Maxing it. On the one hand, I hope that this is the least attended inauguration ever, to minimize the strain put on DC's strained infrastructure. On the other hand, loud protests drowning out the sound of democracy dying has a certain appeal.
posted by X-Himy at 10:45 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by X-Himy at 10:45 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, to that Rust Moranis. I'm a card-carrying-Noam-Chomsky-style-Leftist-Democrat-straight-White-Dude-working-in-Capitalist-Republican-Circles so I get to bite my tongue a lot.
But, from a realistic 'let's all be civil' standpoint, embracing outrage is usually the first step to losing any sort of important discussion.
posted by mrdaneri at 10:45 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
But, from a realistic 'let's all be civil' standpoint, embracing outrage is usually the first step to losing any sort of important discussion.
posted by mrdaneri at 10:45 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
As a DC MeFite, I can do without the lecturing of a Canadian about how to act in my own backyard. It's going to be a white supremacist gathering in a city known for PoC fleeing decades of both domestic and international oppression; there's no need to do defer to them in any way.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:47 AM on December 23, 2016 [73 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 10:47 AM on December 23, 2016 [73 favorites]
embracing outrage is usually the first step to losing any sort of important discussion.
Counterpoint: the last 8 years.
posted by chris24 at 10:48 AM on December 23, 2016 [75 favorites]
Counterpoint: the last 8 years.
posted by chris24 at 10:48 AM on December 23, 2016 [75 favorites]
the ones who "aren't" racists/fascists/misogynists/traitors ignored all that and voted to put me, my family, and the entire planet at risk so the 1% could pay a couple percent less in the highest tax bracket.
So fuck them.
Some of them did it because they had no decent education or enough opportunities for eye-opening life experience and didn't want to feel like the only person they know in their entire family and town and county (that they have no plausible way to leave), who voted for the person that everybody they loved said was the devil. You can say fuck them but I wouldn't.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
So fuck them.
Some of them did it because they had no decent education or enough opportunities for eye-opening life experience and didn't want to feel like the only person they know in their entire family and town and county (that they have no plausible way to leave), who voted for the person that everybody they loved said was the devil. You can say fuck them but I wouldn't.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Entertainers boycotting Donald Trump is not a winning strategy -- yet another suspect elite lining up against real America.
But Tom Hanks running for President as a Democrat in 2020 probably is a winning strategy -- universally beloved celebrity beats continuum-between-hated-and-sort-of-admired celebrity.
It's confusing.
It's not that confusing. The Trumpists are always going to criticize the Hollywood elite lapdog latte-sipping homosexual blah blah blah. It's not like they're going to suddenly stop just because a couple A-listers took one for the team and sang at the Inauguration.
What boycotting the Inauguration does is to send a message to the broad center of America -- the people that really don't care about politics because they don't realize how much they're about to suffer, who tune in for a few weeks before elections and maybe for the SOTU. Those are the people who need to see that this is not normal, and some ridiculous amateur-hour performance from like the Duck Dynasty guys or whatever may plant or reinforce the idea that this election was not normal, this presidency is not normal, this country is not okay. They need to see the norms unraveling -- for us, we are paying attention and we see all the ways that, say, tweeting about restarting the nuclear arms race is horrifying -- but they don't.
It works to delegitimize Trump at a time when people who don't typically pay attention may be, and that's important.
Also, let's not with the weird "celeb actor for 2020" thing. The Presidency actually isn't just a job that any famous person off the street can do.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [42 favorites]
But Tom Hanks running for President as a Democrat in 2020 probably is a winning strategy -- universally beloved celebrity beats continuum-between-hated-and-sort-of-admired celebrity.
It's confusing.
It's not that confusing. The Trumpists are always going to criticize the Hollywood elite lapdog latte-sipping homosexual blah blah blah. It's not like they're going to suddenly stop just because a couple A-listers took one for the team and sang at the Inauguration.
What boycotting the Inauguration does is to send a message to the broad center of America -- the people that really don't care about politics because they don't realize how much they're about to suffer, who tune in for a few weeks before elections and maybe for the SOTU. Those are the people who need to see that this is not normal, and some ridiculous amateur-hour performance from like the Duck Dynasty guys or whatever may plant or reinforce the idea that this election was not normal, this presidency is not normal, this country is not okay. They need to see the norms unraveling -- for us, we are paying attention and we see all the ways that, say, tweeting about restarting the nuclear arms race is horrifying -- but they don't.
It works to delegitimize Trump at a time when people who don't typically pay attention may be, and that's important.
Also, let's not with the weird "celeb actor for 2020" thing. The Presidency actually isn't just a job that any famous person off the street can do.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [42 favorites]
Give it the respect that it deserves
Yes, as history shows us, time and again, the best way to fight fascism, bigotry, and nationalism is to be very polite and respectful with hugs and unicorns and flowered bridges all around.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:50 AM on December 23, 2016 [149 favorites]
Yes, as history shows us, time and again, the best way to fight fascism, bigotry, and nationalism is to be very polite and respectful with hugs and unicorns and flowered bridges all around.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:50 AM on December 23, 2016 [149 favorites]
It's the Presidential Inauguration. Give it the respect that it deserves
The GOP has spent the last 8 years shitting so hard on the notion of "respect the office, not the man" that you would need a team of backhoes and dump trucks to unearth it. This kind of thinking is at this point at best outdated, and at worst actively harmful to ever undoing the damage they are doing. They do not give the tiniest shit about respect or protocol unless in the moment it is advantageous for them to pretend to do so.
Worrying about showing appropriate respect for a man (or party) that is basically advocating for the dehumanization of large parts of the population and attempting to turn back time to a 1950s that never existed (complete with prioritized white male supremacy) is a loser's game. Fuck. That.
No respect. None.
posted by tocts at 10:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [124 favorites]
The GOP has spent the last 8 years shitting so hard on the notion of "respect the office, not the man" that you would need a team of backhoes and dump trucks to unearth it. This kind of thinking is at this point at best outdated, and at worst actively harmful to ever undoing the damage they are doing. They do not give the tiniest shit about respect or protocol unless in the moment it is advantageous for them to pretend to do so.
Worrying about showing appropriate respect for a man (or party) that is basically advocating for the dehumanization of large parts of the population and attempting to turn back time to a 1950s that never existed (complete with prioritized white male supremacy) is a loser's game. Fuck. That.
No respect. None.
posted by tocts at 10:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [124 favorites]
Yes, as history shows us, time and again, the best way to fight fascism, bigotry, and nationalism is to be very polite and respectful with hugs and unicorns and flowered bridges all around.
That isn't the same as deciding every single person who voted for trump is shitty so fuck them forever. I'm fine with telling everyday Trump voters that they made a terrible mistake that we will all pay for. But that involves telling them that and not just deciding they are all monsters who we cannot live in the same country with. Unless you're ready to fight a civil war right now then you're going to want to accept the humanity of some of those who either voted for trump or did not vote.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:52 AM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
That isn't the same as deciding every single person who voted for trump is shitty so fuck them forever. I'm fine with telling everyday Trump voters that they made a terrible mistake that we will all pay for. But that involves telling them that and not just deciding they are all monsters who we cannot live in the same country with. Unless you're ready to fight a civil war right now then you're going to want to accept the humanity of some of those who either voted for trump or did not vote.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:52 AM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
But politics should be about somehow building bridges, not blowing them up.
Tell that to the people who voted for the guy who promised to blow up all the bridges, I guess?
posted by klanawa at 10:53 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Tell that to the people who voted for the guy who promised to blow up all the bridges, I guess?
posted by klanawa at 10:53 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
But Tom Hanks running for President as a Democrat in 2020 probably is a winning strategy -- universally beloved celebrity beats continuum-between-hated-and-sort-of-admired celebrity.
Not being offered (yet) by any of the UK bookies, though Leonardo DiCaprio is 80/1 at two of them to win the presidency in 2020. I placed a small bet on Amy Klobuchar at 33/1 earlier today.
posted by Wordshore at 10:53 AM on December 23, 2016
Not being offered (yet) by any of the UK bookies, though Leonardo DiCaprio is 80/1 at two of them to win the presidency in 2020. I placed a small bet on Amy Klobuchar at 33/1 earlier today.
posted by Wordshore at 10:53 AM on December 23, 2016
That isn't the same as deciding every single person who voted for trump is shitty so fuck them forever.
Personally, I don't know anyone who voted for Trump for anything other than the shittiest reasons.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:55 AM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
Personally, I don't know anyone who voted for Trump for anything other than the shittiest reasons.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:55 AM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
Also we must, must start making a distinction between Trump voters and vigorous Trump supporters.
I think that's part of how we got here - by giving people a pass for Dubya and the like. A lot of people are under the impression that politics is academic. It's 'over there.' Like, plenty of people who voted for Trump didn't believe it would have any real world consequences for anybody they actually knew and cared about.
It's important that we express to *all* Trump voters that this is their fault. They didn't pay attention, they didn't educate themselves, and they got played. It's not Hillary Clinton's fault for being so darn unlikable*. It's not even entirely the media's fault for being spineless fucking quislings. It's the job of every American to have the slightest clue who their vote is going toward, and it's time we held people to that very loose and generous minimal standard.
Does that mean actually attacking them? Not always. But yeah, it means actually holding them accountable for their decision. It does mean snubbing. It does mean rubbing their noses in them losing their healthcare. It means doing whatever is most effective to make them connect 'life sucks' with 'they personally fucked this up for themselves.'
(* I like Hillary Clinton.)
Unless you're ready to fight a civil war right now then you're going to want to accept the humanity of some of those who either voted for trump or did not vote.
Sorry, that takes two. They're already at 'do not accept our basic humanity' and 'willing to commit horrifying acts of violence because of that.' If it comes to that, it's not on us, it's entirely on them. Anything else is victim blaming.
posted by mordax at 10:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [87 favorites]
I think that's part of how we got here - by giving people a pass for Dubya and the like. A lot of people are under the impression that politics is academic. It's 'over there.' Like, plenty of people who voted for Trump didn't believe it would have any real world consequences for anybody they actually knew and cared about.
It's important that we express to *all* Trump voters that this is their fault. They didn't pay attention, they didn't educate themselves, and they got played. It's not Hillary Clinton's fault for being so darn unlikable*. It's not even entirely the media's fault for being spineless fucking quislings. It's the job of every American to have the slightest clue who their vote is going toward, and it's time we held people to that very loose and generous minimal standard.
Does that mean actually attacking them? Not always. But yeah, it means actually holding them accountable for their decision. It does mean snubbing. It does mean rubbing their noses in them losing their healthcare. It means doing whatever is most effective to make them connect 'life sucks' with 'they personally fucked this up for themselves.'
(* I like Hillary Clinton.)
Unless you're ready to fight a civil war right now then you're going to want to accept the humanity of some of those who either voted for trump or did not vote.
Sorry, that takes two. They're already at 'do not accept our basic humanity' and 'willing to commit horrifying acts of violence because of that.' If it comes to that, it's not on us, it's entirely on them. Anything else is victim blaming.
posted by mordax at 10:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [87 favorites]
Definitely an element of cognitive dissonance here but I really strongly feel that permanently dismissing every person who voted for Trump is a terrible mistake.
If even strident Trump supporters experience a genuine change of heart and decide to switch teams, I'm all for it, and certainly we should also be hoping to convince people who just blindly voted for the R on the ticket that they have made a mistake and should get on the side of decency.
I think the mistake on our part is to assume that being non-confrontational or worse, pandering to their shitty ideas and acting like this is a "reasonable people can disagree" situation is going to get them there. They've collectively made a massive, history-altering error and need to rightly get their feelings hurt over it, and to feel real social and emotional consequences from the people they've effectively thrown to the wolves. I won't dismiss them if they decide to see reason, but I'm for damn sure not going to coddle them, and I'm not going to offer a shred of respect for their decisions to date or for the vile piece of shit they've put in charge of my country.
posted by contraption at 10:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [53 favorites]
If even strident Trump supporters experience a genuine change of heart and decide to switch teams, I'm all for it, and certainly we should also be hoping to convince people who just blindly voted for the R on the ticket that they have made a mistake and should get on the side of decency.
I think the mistake on our part is to assume that being non-confrontational or worse, pandering to their shitty ideas and acting like this is a "reasonable people can disagree" situation is going to get them there. They've collectively made a massive, history-altering error and need to rightly get their feelings hurt over it, and to feel real social and emotional consequences from the people they've effectively thrown to the wolves. I won't dismiss them if they decide to see reason, but I'm for damn sure not going to coddle them, and I'm not going to offer a shred of respect for their decisions to date or for the vile piece of shit they've put in charge of my country.
posted by contraption at 10:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [53 favorites]
The issue over the Rockettes bothers me. Isn't saying they should be allowed to skip a performance similar to a pharmacist saying they should be able to refuse to dispense birth control?
Obviously entertainment and health are far resolved in importance, but if you're a professional, you do your job. Or find another that doesn't force you to make those compromises. And I don't think the dancers should be blamed for participating.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:59 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Obviously entertainment and health are far resolved in importance, but if you're a professional, you do your job. Or find another that doesn't force you to make those compromises. And I don't think the dancers should be blamed for participating.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:59 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
we must, must start making a distinction between Trump voters and vigorous Trump supporters.
Trump voters are Trump supporters, by definition.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:00 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Trump voters are Trump supporters, by definition.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:00 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
You can say fuck them but I wouldn't.
I'm a straight white cis male who grew up poor and Republican in South Dakota. I've tried for years to convince family and friends who are like you describe. Didn't work. So now I think I need to be someone who calls them out on their BS because they sure as shit aren't listening to PoC or LGBT. They'll sit comfortable in and ignorant of their privilege unless someone in that privilege circle educates them, or barring that, shames them into better behavior.
posted by chris24 at 11:00 AM on December 23, 2016 [49 favorites]
I'm a straight white cis male who grew up poor and Republican in South Dakota. I've tried for years to convince family and friends who are like you describe. Didn't work. So now I think I need to be someone who calls them out on their BS because they sure as shit aren't listening to PoC or LGBT. They'll sit comfortable in and ignorant of their privilege unless someone in that privilege circle educates them, or barring that, shames them into better behavior.
posted by chris24 at 11:00 AM on December 23, 2016 [49 favorites]
Re: the Rockettes, you can email Radio City that you don't support the decision.
Email: feedbackradiocity@MSG.com
Make sure you express that if a Rockette does not wish to perform, she shouldn't have to, and there should not be repercussions. Not wanting to perform at the inauguration of an avowed sexual assaulter is not a "political" statement, it's human rights.
Re: empathizing with red America, again, many of us do, which is why many of us know it ain't that simple. The Dark Rigidity of Fundamentalist Rural America.
In effect, he says that in order to protect the profit margins of health-care providers, people should self-diagnose their illnesses and injuries, and only go to the hospital if they REALLY need to.
Guess who that would disproportionally affect? Yes! You guessed right: WOMEN. No one bothers to teach us about things that can go wrong outside of baby-having, like, say burst ovarian cysts. Did you know that some women get ovarian cysts that keep growing? I didn't. I definitely wouldn't have gone to a US hospital, because I couldn't afford it and I was pretty sure the searing pain was temporary. It would have been temporary, yes, as in I would have died from the internal bleeding the burst ovarian cyst had caused. Boy! Good thing I didn't entirely trust my self-diagnosis 20 years ago + there was affordable healthcare where I was at the time (Helsinki), or else I wouldn't be here to write this comment.
posted by fraula at 11:01 AM on December 23, 2016 [55 favorites]
Email: feedbackradiocity@MSG.com
Make sure you express that if a Rockette does not wish to perform, she shouldn't have to, and there should not be repercussions. Not wanting to perform at the inauguration of an avowed sexual assaulter is not a "political" statement, it's human rights.
Re: empathizing with red America, again, many of us do, which is why many of us know it ain't that simple. The Dark Rigidity of Fundamentalist Rural America.
In effect, he says that in order to protect the profit margins of health-care providers, people should self-diagnose their illnesses and injuries, and only go to the hospital if they REALLY need to.
Guess who that would disproportionally affect? Yes! You guessed right: WOMEN. No one bothers to teach us about things that can go wrong outside of baby-having, like, say burst ovarian cysts. Did you know that some women get ovarian cysts that keep growing? I didn't. I definitely wouldn't have gone to a US hospital, because I couldn't afford it and I was pretty sure the searing pain was temporary. It would have been temporary, yes, as in I would have died from the internal bleeding the burst ovarian cyst had caused. Boy! Good thing I didn't entirely trust my self-diagnosis 20 years ago + there was affordable healthcare where I was at the time (Helsinki), or else I wouldn't be here to write this comment.
posted by fraula at 11:01 AM on December 23, 2016 [55 favorites]
The issue over the Rockettes bothers me. Isn't saying they should be allowed to skip a performance similar to a pharmacist saying they should be able to refuse to dispense birth control?
Is this comment supposed to be some kind of a joke?
posted by jokeefe at 11:04 AM on December 23, 2016 [74 favorites]
Is this comment supposed to be some kind of a joke?
posted by jokeefe at 11:04 AM on December 23, 2016 [74 favorites]
So I have made this point enough to now promise not to make it again, but the VAST majority of people who voted for Donald Trump did so for the same reason(s) they voted for Mitt Romney, John McCain, George Bush, etc., and would have voted for Ted Cruz or John Kasich if they were on the ballot instead: one or more of lower taxes, lower regulations, Second Amendment, tougher on crime/terrorism, flyover-vs-coastal-elites, pro-life judges, Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays, etc. Don't confuse the (admittedly important) marginal changes for the bulk of the story.
posted by MattD at 11:04 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by MattD at 11:04 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'd expect the horrible consequences of winning to shift a few people, especially the confused types vaguely concerned about something to do with emails, but lets face it - the hardships they face as a result of victory are just as likely to be blamed on us and used as justification for further disastrous policies. Bridge building seems really unlikely.
posted by Artw at 11:04 AM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:04 AM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Personally, I don't know anyone who voted for Trump for anything other than the shittiest reasons.
For sure. But some of those shitty reasons are in many cases (maybe not a majority but many) not based in racism/xenophobia/misogyny but real, deep, cultural norms: Guns are a religion in many places, for example, as is conceptual opposition to the federal government. A lot of folks I know voted for shitty reasons that are culture-bound and without necessary hatred for the other side, and if they had had more contact with the other side might have actually got the information needed to inform their vote.
We should be outraged and we should confront them at every opportunity. Some of them will appreciate it in the long run. But we can't label Trump voters (even strong supporters) as rednecks and hicks and poor hillbillies with bad taste, that alienates them all from us. And we can't call individual Trump supporters racist until they tell you in their own way that they are (and they will).
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:05 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
For sure. But some of those shitty reasons are in many cases (maybe not a majority but many) not based in racism/xenophobia/misogyny but real, deep, cultural norms: Guns are a religion in many places, for example, as is conceptual opposition to the federal government. A lot of folks I know voted for shitty reasons that are culture-bound and without necessary hatred for the other side, and if they had had more contact with the other side might have actually got the information needed to inform their vote.
We should be outraged and we should confront them at every opportunity. Some of them will appreciate it in the long run. But we can't label Trump voters (even strong supporters) as rednecks and hicks and poor hillbillies with bad taste, that alienates them all from us. And we can't call individual Trump supporters racist until they tell you in their own way that they are (and they will).
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:05 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
the VAST majority of people who voted for Donald Trump did so for the same reason(s) they voted for Mitt Romney, John McCain, George Bush, etc.
Not really hearing a lot from them about the cabinet full of crooks, conspiracy theorists and Nazis and the likely implications of that though, are we? Just "ha ha ha, liberal tears".
I hope a liberal tears mug doubles up as healthcare.
posted by Artw at 11:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [55 favorites]
Not really hearing a lot from them about the cabinet full of crooks, conspiracy theorists and Nazis and the likely implications of that though, are we? Just "ha ha ha, liberal tears".
I hope a liberal tears mug doubles up as healthcare.
posted by Artw at 11:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [55 favorites]
It's not a binary where either one says fuck all Trump voters or one stands with open arms ready to hug it out and say no biggie. I've been doing my best to straddle the middle and not fundamentally dismiss folks who voted R-for-Trump while also refusing to discard or dismiss the reality that they made that particular terrible choice. It was a terrible choice, at best defensible as uninformed and misguided. The spirit of trying to understand and move forward with life because life goes on doesn't require, and shouldn't involve, pretending otherwise.
But for Trump himself and his carnival of shitheelry, I'm right where I've been since the first post-election calls to respect the office started rolling out on Nov 9th: I can muster exactly as much respect for Trump's presidency as he has, and that's none. We are inaugurating a blustering, venal, narcissistic bigot, a man who has fundamentally rejected basically all of the things we expect from someone holding the highest office in the country, and has done so with a wink and a shit-eating grin. His candidacy is an ugly joke that, instead of being whispered over the water cooler after a nervous glance, saddled him with responsibilities and complexities that he continues daily to mock, disregard, or hand off to one or another odious loyalist.
I can understand, in a strained way and without necessarily agreeing, why folks in e.g. Obama's position feel compelled to make the effort to treat things with a degree of politic and normalizing respect in hopes of reducing the short-term and long-term damage to a system that will in principle outlive Trump's tenure. But very few of us are in that particular bind, and I feel no compulsion to pretend that Trump et al are anything other than an embarrassment and a disaster for this country.
posted by cortex at 11:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [170 favorites]
But for Trump himself and his carnival of shitheelry, I'm right where I've been since the first post-election calls to respect the office started rolling out on Nov 9th: I can muster exactly as much respect for Trump's presidency as he has, and that's none. We are inaugurating a blustering, venal, narcissistic bigot, a man who has fundamentally rejected basically all of the things we expect from someone holding the highest office in the country, and has done so with a wink and a shit-eating grin. His candidacy is an ugly joke that, instead of being whispered over the water cooler after a nervous glance, saddled him with responsibilities and complexities that he continues daily to mock, disregard, or hand off to one or another odious loyalist.
I can understand, in a strained way and without necessarily agreeing, why folks in e.g. Obama's position feel compelled to make the effort to treat things with a degree of politic and normalizing respect in hopes of reducing the short-term and long-term damage to a system that will in principle outlive Trump's tenure. But very few of us are in that particular bind, and I feel no compulsion to pretend that Trump et al are anything other than an embarrassment and a disaster for this country.
posted by cortex at 11:06 AM on December 23, 2016 [170 favorites]
who voted for Donald Trump did so for the same reason(s) they voted for Mitt Romney, John McCain, George Bush, etc., and would have voted for Ted Cruz or John Kasich if they were on the ballot
Yep, but to make that typical Republican vote they ignored the overt racism, fascism, insanity and ineptitude that Trump brought that the others didn't. So really not the same typical Republican vote.
posted by chris24 at 11:07 AM on December 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
Yep, but to make that typical Republican vote they ignored the overt racism, fascism, insanity and ineptitude that Trump brought that the others didn't. So really not the same typical Republican vote.
posted by chris24 at 11:07 AM on December 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
Isn't saying they should be allowed to skip a performance similar to a pharmacist saying they should be able to refuse to dispense birth control?
No? How do you figure? The former is an entertainer deciding to turn down a gig. The latter is a medical professional refusing medical service to a specific class of people, a protected class.
It's also not the same as people refusing to make cakes for gay couples either, because they are also a protected class that may not be legally discriminated against by a business.
posted by maxsparber at 11:08 AM on December 23, 2016 [30 favorites]
No? How do you figure? The former is an entertainer deciding to turn down a gig. The latter is a medical professional refusing medical service to a specific class of people, a protected class.
It's also not the same as people refusing to make cakes for gay couples either, because they are also a protected class that may not be legally discriminated against by a business.
posted by maxsparber at 11:08 AM on December 23, 2016 [30 favorites]
who voted for Donald Trump did so for the same reason(s) they voted for Mitt Romney, John McCain, George Bush, etc., and would have voted for Ted Cruz or John Kasich if they were on the ballot
Which is exactly why a clear link must be made between what they thought they were voting for - tax cuts. And what they actually voted for - a nuclear madman who will end democracy.
It really is Republican's fault. All of it.
Yes, even the nice normal ones. They voted for him, they, personally, in their every day lives, own every single last thing he does, including when the missiles start flying. We should never, ever let them disclaim individual responsibility.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [80 favorites]
Which is exactly why a clear link must be made between what they thought they were voting for - tax cuts. And what they actually voted for - a nuclear madman who will end democracy.
It really is Republican's fault. All of it.
Yes, even the nice normal ones. They voted for him, they, personally, in their every day lives, own every single last thing he does, including when the missiles start flying. We should never, ever let them disclaim individual responsibility.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [80 favorites]
I know it doesn't mean much to anyone but me and my family, but I am sad that I won't be going home, barring a serious family emergency, for four years. I have never been the rah rah patriotism type and I am not giving up on the amazing people who will be on the ground making a damn difference, but a lot of days it's hard to think about, how this happened, how we got here, and how it's not a shock to anyone who isn't white or cis. Right now I'm working on my dual citizenship application so I can do more of my part to prevent this disease from taking too strong a hold here in Canada.
All of you who are gonna kick ass and take names until 2020? You are my heroes.
posted by Kitteh at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
All of you who are gonna kick ass and take names until 2020? You are my heroes.
posted by Kitteh at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Just to be clear, the Rockettes have not been expected by MSG Entertainment to perform at every inauguration. They last performed in 2001 and 2005 but did not in 2009 and 2013. Discovering the difference between these particular inaugurations is left for a fun Friday exercise for the reader.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [112 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [112 favorites]
The issue over the Rockettes bothers me. Isn't saying they should be allowed to skip a performance similar to a pharmacist saying they should be able to refuse to dispense birth control?
No, because the Rockettes never hung out a shingle and opened their door and said "Next," and because filling a medically valid prescription is not expression.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
No, because the Rockettes never hung out a shingle and opened their door and said "Next," and because filling a medically valid prescription is not expression.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:12 AM on December 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
Name three bridges that Trump, his supporters, or his team has built to his opponents. No, name one.
Sure, but it's still no reason to focus on moronic and childish insults like "Elton John won't even play at your inauguration, nyah nyah, boo boo!" It's so idiotic.
There are about a million other things you could talk about: conflicts of interest being one of them. Repealing ACA. But, nooooo, we have to have a "freedom concert". The election was fought and lost on culture, by the way.
posted by My Dad at 11:14 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sure, but it's still no reason to focus on moronic and childish insults like "Elton John won't even play at your inauguration, nyah nyah, boo boo!" It's so idiotic.
There are about a million other things you could talk about: conflicts of interest being one of them. Repealing ACA. But, nooooo, we have to have a "freedom concert". The election was fought and lost on culture, by the way.
posted by My Dad at 11:14 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
so I can do more of my part to prevent this disease from taking too strong a hold here in Canada.
TBH, Wynne needs to figure out a way to halve Hydro rates. That's the single-biggest thing that can be done in Ontario to combat this disease.
posted by My Dad at 11:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
TBH, Wynne needs to figure out a way to halve Hydro rates. That's the single-biggest thing that can be done in Ontario to combat this disease.
posted by My Dad at 11:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Look, Rust, most of us in red states have been dealing with this shit for decades, so back off a little. I have had many heartfelt conversations that went nowhere. Nice doesn't work on a lot of these folks. They just see it as weakness.
Now that doesn't mean abandoning compassion. If my Trump voting family showed up on my doorstep I'd take them in and help them.
But otherwise, they are not people I have time for. Too many innocents need my time and help now.
posted by emjaybee at 11:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [58 favorites]
Now that doesn't mean abandoning compassion. If my Trump voting family showed up on my doorstep I'd take them in and help them.
But otherwise, they are not people I have time for. Too many innocents need my time and help now.
posted by emjaybee at 11:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [58 favorites]
But we can't call Trump voters (even strong supporters) as rednecks and hicks and poor hillbillies with bad taste, that alienates them all from us.
We shouldn't rely on lazy stereotyping, no. But the thing is, acting like this is no big deal signals to them that it's not.
When a conservative is mad about something, they get up in arms. They get *emotional* - threats, planning, grudges. I mean, that's what we're seeing, isn't it? We're somehow 'against their values' just by existing, and they're going to knock over civilization itself in a fit of pique over it.
That's how they understand the world. That's how shit works.
When we react in a neutral way, that codes to them as 'this is not important to us.' It says 'these are not sincerely held beliefs.' It doesn't communicate with them effectively. We need to be angry so they see this is actually important.
Much as I want to punish them, my statements aren't even about that, they come from all this empathy I was told I needed to have. I have it, and it says 'demonstrate anger.'
posted by mordax at 11:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [51 favorites]
We shouldn't rely on lazy stereotyping, no. But the thing is, acting like this is no big deal signals to them that it's not.
When a conservative is mad about something, they get up in arms. They get *emotional* - threats, planning, grudges. I mean, that's what we're seeing, isn't it? We're somehow 'against their values' just by existing, and they're going to knock over civilization itself in a fit of pique over it.
That's how they understand the world. That's how shit works.
When we react in a neutral way, that codes to them as 'this is not important to us.' It says 'these are not sincerely held beliefs.' It doesn't communicate with them effectively. We need to be angry so they see this is actually important.
Much as I want to punish them, my statements aren't even about that, they come from all this empathy I was told I needed to have. I have it, and it says 'demonstrate anger.'
posted by mordax at 11:15 AM on December 23, 2016 [51 favorites]
The election was fought and lost on culture, by the way.
Yep, white ethno-nationlist culture.
posted by chris24 at 11:16 AM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
Yep, white ethno-nationlist culture.
posted by chris24 at 11:16 AM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
It was fought and lost on voter suppression and emails, mate. It was probably lost before a vote was cast.
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
There are about a million other things you could talk about: conflicts of interest being one of them. Repealing ACA. But, nooooo, we have to have a "freedom concert". The election was fought and lost on culture, by the way.
My God we've been talking about these things for more than a year.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:16 AM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
My God we've been talking about these things for more than a year.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:16 AM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
Anecdote time about Trump voters:
My partner's family is exurban Rust Belt, formerly unionized ex-auto plant worker dad, service industry mom, mechanic son. Partner was the first in family to go the college. They voted R for every president since forever. Dad's pretty goddamned racist and loved Reagan and hates Obama. Thinks Hillary is literally the actual devil. They didn't like Trump particularly much but Hillary is symbolic of true evil to them.
Mom and Dad voted for Kasich for president this year and brother voted Johnson. They should by every demographic metric and calculus have voted Trump. I think there's no other explanation than that my partner was talking earnestly in their ear every week for months about just how awful and unacceptable he was as a candidate.
That's why we need to refrain from making automatic enemies out of Trump voters: many, many of them are like the family above but without exposure to any information other than fox news on TV and their FB feeds. They might have been dumb enough to be terribly misled but they're not all our enemy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:18 AM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
My partner's family is exurban Rust Belt, formerly unionized ex-auto plant worker dad, service industry mom, mechanic son. Partner was the first in family to go the college. They voted R for every president since forever. Dad's pretty goddamned racist and loved Reagan and hates Obama. Thinks Hillary is literally the actual devil. They didn't like Trump particularly much but Hillary is symbolic of true evil to them.
Mom and Dad voted for Kasich for president this year and brother voted Johnson. They should by every demographic metric and calculus have voted Trump. I think there's no other explanation than that my partner was talking earnestly in their ear every week for months about just how awful and unacceptable he was as a candidate.
That's why we need to refrain from making automatic enemies out of Trump voters: many, many of them are like the family above but without exposure to any information other than fox news on TV and their FB feeds. They might have been dumb enough to be terribly misled but they're not all our enemy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:18 AM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
I mean, people get that looking at the popular vote versus the electoral college map, right? There's always been a margin of fuckery for the democrats to suppase due to republican efforts to rig things, but here we hit the point where it is literally unsurpassable.
posted by Artw at 11:18 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:18 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
"My Dad", please inform us precisely what percent of comments we're allowed to devote to the inauguration snubs, so that we can make the most of them. Thanks much.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:18 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 11:18 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Have they tried to get Ted Nugent? I gotta think ol' Ted would jump at the chance.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:20 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:20 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love the post title so goddamned much, at the same time that I feel whip-lashed by it. Thank you for the post, thank you fellow MetaFites, and thank you mods all of you for your hard work; all y'alls thinkyness.
posted by one teak forest at 11:20 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by one teak forest at 11:20 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
The election was fought and lost on culture, by the way.
And if you want to argue it was bathrooms and the GOP's definition of culture wars, then explain to me how McCrory lost in NC when Trump and Burr won the state by 4-6 points.
posted by chris24 at 11:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
And if you want to argue it was bathrooms and the GOP's definition of culture wars, then explain to me how McCrory lost in NC when Trump and Burr won the state by 4-6 points.
posted by chris24 at 11:21 AM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Don't mind me, just over here in the corner dreading 2017 and remembering the relative years of sanity that was Bush II.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:24 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:24 AM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
And if you want to argue it was bathrooms and the GOP's definition of culture wars, then explain to me how McCrory lost in NC when Trump and Burr won the state by 4-6 points.
Because it's easy to say "I don't care if my state loses billions in investment" and much harder to actually watch it happen.
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Because it's easy to say "I don't care if my state loses billions in investment" and much harder to actually watch it happen.
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
But we can't call Trump voters (even strong supporters) as rednecks and hicks and poor hillbillies with bad taste, that alienates them all from us.
How about "crackers"?
Just kidding, I have hillbilly kin.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Look, Rust, most of us in red states have been dealing with this shit for decades, so back off a little. I have had many heartfelt conversations that went nowhere. Nice doesn't work on a lot of these folks. They just see it as weakness.
I know and I'm not trying to come on too strongly on an issue that's already been tread pretty heavily and is personally painful to many. I just want to point out again that there are many regional and cultural factions within the Trump-voting sphere and some are much more reachable and forgivable than others.
Anyway I'm done, will stop pushing.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:27 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know and I'm not trying to come on too strongly on an issue that's already been tread pretty heavily and is personally painful to many. I just want to point out again that there are many regional and cultural factions within the Trump-voting sphere and some are much more reachable and forgivable than others.
Anyway I'm done, will stop pushing.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:27 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh great, now my Facebook is blowing up with a fake poster/ad for the "Freedom Concert" on inauguration day and everyone's reposting it like it's real.
posted by dnash at 11:28 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by dnash at 11:28 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
But we can't call Trump voters (even strong supporters) as rednecks and hicks and poor hillbillies with bad taste, that alienates them all from us.
And, it's inaccurate as hell. I can point you to some highly wealthy, upscale suburbs of Indianapolis that went for Trump without hesitation.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:29 AM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
And, it's inaccurate as hell. I can point you to some highly wealthy, upscale suburbs of Indianapolis that went for Trump without hesitation.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:29 AM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
The fuckery in NC is also not ending any time soon.
posted by Melismata at 11:30 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 11:30 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think my response to Trump voters is to treat them like people who voted in favor of white nationalism and see if shame has any effect on them.
If not, well, there's 80 percent of the country that didn't actively vote for white supremacy. Maybe they can be reasoned with.
posted by maxsparber at 11:30 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
If not, well, there's 80 percent of the country that didn't actively vote for white supremacy. Maybe they can be reasoned with.
posted by maxsparber at 11:30 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
Maybe he'll pivot.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaargh. /dies
posted by Artw at 11:31 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaargh. /dies
posted by Artw at 11:31 AM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
But we can't call Trump voters (even strong supporters) as rednecks and hicks and poor hillbillies with bad taste, that alienates them all from us.
And, it's inaccurate as hell. I can point you to some highly wealthy, upscale suburbs of Indianapolis that went for Trump without hesitation.
Yep, here's an electoral map that shows how whites with degrees voted. It's pretty fucking red.
posted by chris24 at 11:31 AM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
And, it's inaccurate as hell. I can point you to some highly wealthy, upscale suburbs of Indianapolis that went for Trump without hesitation.
Yep, here's an electoral map that shows how whites with degrees voted. It's pretty fucking red.
posted by chris24 at 11:31 AM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
I work for a small org in the federal government, one foot in EOP, one foot in an agency that conservatives despise. If you want to "look for the helpers" as the man once said, look no further than the thousands of career employees who will continue to do the people's business through the insanity of the transition and beyond. And at my agency, a great many of them are women of color. I take no small amount of daily inspiration from their work our behalf, doing the millions of small things that collaboratively make the USA go.
On the EOP side, boy howdy. Days filled with Sorkin-esque walk-and-talks, shaking papers and saying things like "This isn't what I signed up for!" It'd be funny if there weren't so many lives in the balance. Not deaths, mind you, but lives: we the people have enormous resources at our disposal, and distributing them among those of us who really need them in specific moments is among the better things that we do. This is a process by which dignity can be resurrected and nurtured, through which lives can be built and rebuilt. The talk I've heard about ending all things Great, Fair, and New and replacing them with various Contracts is ...disheartening.
Been a rough month. Jan 23rd, it really is a new world.
posted by milquetoast at 11:33 AM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
On the EOP side, boy howdy. Days filled with Sorkin-esque walk-and-talks, shaking papers and saying things like "This isn't what I signed up for!" It'd be funny if there weren't so many lives in the balance. Not deaths, mind you, but lives: we the people have enormous resources at our disposal, and distributing them among those of us who really need them in specific moments is among the better things that we do. This is a process by which dignity can be resurrected and nurtured, through which lives can be built and rebuilt. The talk I've heard about ending all things Great, Fair, and New and replacing them with various Contracts is ...disheartening.
Been a rough month. Jan 23rd, it really is a new world.
posted by milquetoast at 11:33 AM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
Dear Prudence: I'm a Trump voter and how do I argue with people who think I'm a racist bigot for it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:33 AM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:33 AM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
Maybe he'll pivot.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaargh. /dies
But he has, he's gone from "let's bring back jobs and eliminate government corruption" to "let's stack the cabinet with connected billionaires and blow up the world!" Or is that what you meant by "/dies"?
posted by contraption at 11:36 AM on December 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaargh. /dies
But he has, he's gone from "let's bring back jobs and eliminate government corruption" to "let's stack the cabinet with connected billionaires and blow up the world!" Or is that what you meant by "/dies"?
posted by contraption at 11:36 AM on December 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
I think my response to Trump voters is to treat them like people who voted in favor of white nationalism and see if shame has any effect on them.
That's fine and might work as long as long as you accompany the shaming by respectfully presenting information or framed emotional appeals to counter the fed narrative. Of course that won't work if they are in fact a knowingly racist garbage person (again, ~50% of his voters). In that case you probably shouldn't be interacting them at all unless it's to no-platform them.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:37 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's fine and might work as long as long as you accompany the shaming by respectfully presenting information or framed emotional appeals to counter the fed narrative. Of course that won't work if they are in fact a knowingly racist garbage person (again, ~50% of his voters). In that case you probably shouldn't be interacting them at all unless it's to no-platform them.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:37 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dear Prudence: I'm a Trump voter and how do I argue with people who think I'm a racist bigot for it?
A better attempt at an answer than many of us would give, certainly.
Also I note that the asker is a libertarian. Those still exist? Would have thought Trump blew the lid off of that entire stupid pretense of a political philosophy.
posted by Artw at 11:40 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
A better attempt at an answer than many of us would give, certainly.
Also I note that the asker is a libertarian. Those still exist? Would have thought Trump blew the lid off of that entire stupid pretense of a political philosophy.
posted by Artw at 11:40 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
That's fine and might work as long as long as you accompany the shaming by respectfully presenting information or framed emotional appeals to counter the fed narrative.
Maybe my point wasn't clear: I don't care if it works. I've written off every single one of them. There are a lot of people who actually need help and support in this country, and I am putting my efforts toward them. They represent the majority, and I am tired of being told that the result of this election is that I have to start being extra supportive because there are some Trump supporters who aren't all the way racist.
Fuck them. Every one of them. If they want someone to reach across the aisles, they get to go first.
posted by maxsparber at 11:41 AM on December 23, 2016 [82 favorites]
Maybe my point wasn't clear: I don't care if it works. I've written off every single one of them. There are a lot of people who actually need help and support in this country, and I am putting my efforts toward them. They represent the majority, and I am tired of being told that the result of this election is that I have to start being extra supportive because there are some Trump supporters who aren't all the way racist.
Fuck them. Every one of them. If they want someone to reach across the aisles, they get to go first.
posted by maxsparber at 11:41 AM on December 23, 2016 [82 favorites]
These folks believe we are vampires whose heads should be cut off, and whose neck stumps should be packed with garlic to prevent us arising from the dead. But yes, we must by all means take a respectful tone of voice with them, to demonstrate to them that we are among the Good Vampires. Doing so will pay off in countless unspecified dividends at some unspecified future time.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
So I was thinking, someone should start a thing demanding that Trump release all the files on the government's chemtrail mind-control program. If it catches on with the truther crowd, it may help associate Trump supporters with extremist/fringe people, in the public's mind, and it may also sow some discord in the enemy's camp.
posted by thelonius at 11:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 11:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Libertarian" is code for prioritizing a business's right to discriminate against black people .
posted by X-Himy at 11:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [53 favorites]
posted by X-Himy at 11:42 AM on December 23, 2016 [53 favorites]
If they want someone to reach across the aisles, they get to go first.
Wow, that really takes me back to the days when my kids were 8 and 10. Thanks!
posted by rocket88 at 11:43 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wow, that really takes me back to the days when my kids were 8 and 10. Thanks!
posted by rocket88 at 11:43 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sure, but it's still no reason to focus on moronic and childish insults like "Elton John won't even play at your inauguration, nyah nyah, boo boo!" It's so idiotic.
I'm a lot more worried about the large number of Trump supporters who said "Who'd want that faggot at an inauguration anyway?" when Elton John said he was incorrectly listed as a performer than I am anybody who might be offended because we're pointing out all the reasons why nobody wants to perform at the event.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:44 AM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm a lot more worried about the large number of Trump supporters who said "Who'd want that faggot at an inauguration anyway?" when Elton John said he was incorrectly listed as a performer than I am anybody who might be offended because we're pointing out all the reasons why nobody wants to perform at the event.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:44 AM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Wow, that really takes me back to the days when my kids were 8 and 10. Thanks!
This analogy only works if one of your children is a racist who is actively kicking the other one and making sure the neighbors are hungry or die without healthcare.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:45 AM on December 23, 2016 [93 favorites]
This analogy only works if one of your children is a racist who is actively kicking the other one and making sure the neighbors are hungry or die without healthcare.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:45 AM on December 23, 2016 [93 favorites]
"Libertarian" is code for prioritizing a business's right to discriminate against black people .
Also gays. I have had a gay libertarian friend look me in the eye and argue for the right of a business to discriminate against him.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:46 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
Also gays. I have had a gay libertarian friend look me in the eye and argue for the right of a business to discriminate against him.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:46 AM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
That's fine and might work as long as long as you accompany the shaming by respectfully presenting information or framed emotional appeals to counter the fed narrative.
I think most of us are just so tired and done with trying to do this. I can't tell you how many times I've presented people with actual evidence refuting some lie about Hillary and they reply with literally "Well, I feel like it's something Hillary would do anyway."
Also I'm sick of kowtowing to the white identity hegemony. While we lost this election, we are not the minority here trying to get our views held by the majority. We are the majority, just look at the post title of this very thread.
We don't need these fucks and it's on them if they want to try and be better. But I'm done wasting my time to try and convince them and will instead focus my efforts on helping people that need it, building up a better community, and tearing down the institutions and laws that enable these fucks to continuously steal power.
posted by mayonnaises at 11:48 AM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
I think most of us are just so tired and done with trying to do this. I can't tell you how many times I've presented people with actual evidence refuting some lie about Hillary and they reply with literally "Well, I feel like it's something Hillary would do anyway."
Also I'm sick of kowtowing to the white identity hegemony. While we lost this election, we are not the minority here trying to get our views held by the majority. We are the majority, just look at the post title of this very thread.
We don't need these fucks and it's on them if they want to try and be better. But I'm done wasting my time to try and convince them and will instead focus my efforts on helping people that need it, building up a better community, and tearing down the institutions and laws that enable these fucks to continuously steal power.
posted by mayonnaises at 11:48 AM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
Wow, that really takes me back to the days when my kids were 8 and 10. Thanks!
I am going to go ahead and assume you have not been getting photos of your face put onto Holocaust victims.
posted by maxsparber at 11:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [92 favorites]
I am going to go ahead and assume you have not been getting photos of your face put onto Holocaust victims.
posted by maxsparber at 11:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [92 favorites]
I thought libertarian was code for I don't want to pay for someone to take out my trash, but I'm too lazy to take out my own trash so I'll try to manipulate some poor person into taking it out for me for free (and/or, I'll just let the trash pile up because I have the right to have huge piles of trash on my property).
posted by Melismata at 11:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 11:49 AM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Fuck them. Every one of them.
To lump the uneducated and culture-bound in with those actually motivated by an actual desire to harm you is a mistake.
I'm a left-wing Jew who is curating my family's Holocaust-era correspondence. I understand what's happening, the threat of the moment and the dire probabilities of the future. I'm also surrounded by people who might have voted H in '32 in another time and place. They're good neighbors and some of them are friends, and until it's too dangerous for me to do so I am going to keep being friendly and open with them unless they are strong supporters (of which there aren't that many).
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:50 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
To lump the uneducated and culture-bound in with those actually motivated by an actual desire to harm you is a mistake.
I'm a left-wing Jew who is curating my family's Holocaust-era correspondence. I understand what's happening, the threat of the moment and the dire probabilities of the future. I'm also surrounded by people who might have voted H in '32 in another time and place. They're good neighbors and some of them are friends, and until it's too dangerous for me to do so I am going to keep being friendly and open with them unless they are strong supporters (of which there aren't that many).
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:50 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
re: trump voters & "You can say fuck them but I wouldnt"
Fuck. Them. brownshirts are gonna rise out of that population, my dear.
reaching out, empathy etc? no. Fuck no.
posted by The_Auditor at 11:50 AM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Fuck. Them. brownshirts are gonna rise out of that population, my dear.
reaching out, empathy etc? no. Fuck no.
posted by The_Auditor at 11:50 AM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Even the Smithsonian has learned to love the Giant Meteor: Sure, Earth Could Get Hit by a Deadly Asteroid—But There’s an Upside
posted by Apocryphon at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
The threats posed by so-called Near Earth Objects (NEO) range from localized injuries—as in the 2013 Chelyabinsk meteor impact in Russia that injured 1,500 people—to mass extinctions like the one that wiped out the dinosaurs. Yet these threats also present an unusual opportunity for nations to band together to protect all Earthlings from imminent danger. After all, an asteroid impact could potentially be a global disaster, says Brent Barbee, an aerospace engineer with NASA Goddard Space Flight Center.We're reduced to embracing sci-fi tropes now, it seems.
“Asteroids certainly don’t discriminate between nations, and an impact can occur on anyone’s territory,” says Barbee.
There’s another factor that makes the threat of asteroid impacts a unique opportunity for global unity. Unlike some more localized natural hazards, like volcanic eruptions and tsunamis, these kinds of impacts are theoretically preventable. “It’s the only natural disaster that we really have the ability to—at least in principle—prevent,” says Barbee. “That creates a certain type of international collaboration that is very unique.”
posted by Apocryphon at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
C'est la D.C. and Melismata, you are both. The awfulness of libertarianism contains multitudes.
posted by X-Himy at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by X-Himy at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
In the electoral map of white college-educated voters which Chris24 linked to, Hillary won Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Montana, and Arizona.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
They're good neighbors and some of them are friends, and until it's too dangerous for me to do so I am going to keep being friendly and open with them unless they are strong supporters (of which there aren't that many).
That's fine for you. It doesn't work for me, and so it is an approach I will not be pursuing.
posted by maxsparber at 11:52 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
That's fine for you. It doesn't work for me, and so it is an approach I will not be pursuing.
posted by maxsparber at 11:52 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
That's fine for you. It doesn't work for me, and so it is an approach I will not be pursuing.
If I had a choice I wouldn't either. Location makes a difference and every sane person moving out of red states is not a great strategy for now.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:53 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I had a choice I wouldn't either. Location makes a difference and every sane person moving out of red states is not a great strategy for now.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:53 AM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
To lump the uneducated and culture-bound in with those actually motivated by an actual desire to harm you is a mistake.
Racism, transphobia and misogyny are a valid culture now? In my mind, not caring what happens to low-income trans people because of your vote is akin to actually hating them.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:54 AM on December 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
Racism, transphobia and misogyny are a valid culture now? In my mind, not caring what happens to low-income trans people because of your vote is akin to actually hating them.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:54 AM on December 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
Fuck. Them. brownshirts are gonna rise out of that population, my dear.
The brownshirts are already rising and they're coming out of the people who love trump, not the people who voted for him for cultural or ignorance-related reasons.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:54 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
The brownshirts are already rising and they're coming out of the people who love trump, not the people who voted for him for cultural or ignorance-related reasons.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:54 AM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
But it doesn't matter why people voted for Trump. You know what you were getting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:56 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:56 AM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Racism, transphobia and misogyny are a valid culture now? In my mind, not caring what happens to low-income trans people because of your vote is akin to actually hating them.
They're not. But in some parts of the country, if you're not highly educated you will vote for whichever candidate looks less like The Government. You just will. The effects are awful but it's not because they all specifically want to victimize.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:56 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
They're not. But in some parts of the country, if you're not highly educated you will vote for whichever candidate looks less like The Government. You just will. The effects are awful but it's not because they all specifically want to victimize.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:56 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Location makes a difference and every sane person moving out of red states is not a great strategy for now.
I haven't crunched the numbers, but let's see. 80 percent of the country leaves. The remaining 20 percent are increasingly dependent on subsidies from the federal government to survive. Trump decides it's a waste of money. Trump is indicted on more than 30,000 crimes as president. The next president offers a modern version of the New Deal. People go crazy for liberalism, which has literally saved their life ...
I think a plan is starting to come together.
I just left Nebraska, by the way, for Minnesota. Worked for me!
posted by maxsparber at 11:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I haven't crunched the numbers, but let's see. 80 percent of the country leaves. The remaining 20 percent are increasingly dependent on subsidies from the federal government to survive. Trump decides it's a waste of money. Trump is indicted on more than 30,000 crimes as president. The next president offers a modern version of the New Deal. People go crazy for liberalism, which has literally saved their life ...
I think a plan is starting to come together.
I just left Nebraska, by the way, for Minnesota. Worked for me!
posted by maxsparber at 11:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
But it doesn't matter why people voted for Trump. You know what you were getting.
Not if you have poor education, few mind-opening early life experiences, and no ability to tell good information from bad.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Not if you have poor education, few mind-opening early life experiences, and no ability to tell good information from bad.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:58 AM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Does this picture confuse you??
than read this
posted by robbyrobs at 12:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
than read this
posted by robbyrobs at 12:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
All the sane people leaving the red states basically looks like right now.
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Wow, that really takes me back to the days when my kids were 8 and 10. Thanks!
Look. I have been reaching across the aisles pretty much since I developed my independent political point of view, age... oh, probably fifteen or so. I have been trying to find common cause for things like "can you stop with the microaggressions" with my family and the conservative areas I grew up around, often at the expense of my own confidence in my own opinions, viewpoints, and experiences. I have only now developed the confidence to outright tell conservatives that no, they are wrong, completely and utterly in the last two to three years.
Frankly, politeness doesn't work. Neutral emotions do not fucking work. "Let's all meet in the middle" does not work, it just gives people more leeway to gaslight you out of your reality and push at you until you shut up about the things you watch happening all around you. It lets people who have defensive
And if you still have the energy and patience to try it with actual conservative loved ones, more power to you, but quit fucking lecturing those of us who don't. I am reaching out and being louder about politics now than I have ever been, and part of that is because I am now so afraid for my family and so angry that it has come to this that I no longer give any fucks remaining about the feelings of conservatives. If they enabled this sequence of events, they should feel ashamed. Having done a shitty, horrific thing doesn't mean that they are irredeemable people, no, but acting as if saying "no quarter, no legitimacy, you're for democracy or against it and whatever you choose, you need to act in line with it" is the same thing as making an unforgiveable personal insult is half the reason that we are here today.
I am talking more to conservative people in my networks than I have ever done before, because my anger is giving me the confidence to insist that you had better hear me now and that you had better know the consequences I face in this new America. Not less. I am getting listened to more, and getting less in the way of defensive attempts to shut me down and slimy exhortations to think of the white men, because I am speaking with total conviction and using the emotions flowing through me to shape my rhetoric. My rage and my insistence that if conservatives want their party to be remembered as anything but Nazis, Round II, they ought to get moving and do something about it has made me more effective as a speaker and as a liberal person with principles, not less. My demand to conservatives who claim to love me that they back those claims up with action to protect me, their daughter and granddaughter and niece... well, that secured several votes for Hillary that I don't think would have happened otherwise.
So kindly quit lecturing me and people who feel like I do. It's quislings who try to reason with the unreasonable who have gotten us in this mess. I've had eight years of watching what happens when you try to reason with the Republican Party and act politely, and it's brought us here.
No quarter. No inch of ground will I yield. No iota of legitimacy will I concede before I fight for it. If democracy is to be killed, by all the gods I will make the Republican Party bleed for it in the minds of the people I speak to.
posted by sciatrix at 12:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [209 favorites]
Look. I have been reaching across the aisles pretty much since I developed my independent political point of view, age... oh, probably fifteen or so. I have been trying to find common cause for things like "can you stop with the microaggressions" with my family and the conservative areas I grew up around, often at the expense of my own confidence in my own opinions, viewpoints, and experiences. I have only now developed the confidence to outright tell conservatives that no, they are wrong, completely and utterly in the last two to three years.
Frankly, politeness doesn't work. Neutral emotions do not fucking work. "Let's all meet in the middle" does not work, it just gives people more leeway to gaslight you out of your reality and push at you until you shut up about the things you watch happening all around you. It lets people who have defensive
And if you still have the energy and patience to try it with actual conservative loved ones, more power to you, but quit fucking lecturing those of us who don't. I am reaching out and being louder about politics now than I have ever been, and part of that is because I am now so afraid for my family and so angry that it has come to this that I no longer give any fucks remaining about the feelings of conservatives. If they enabled this sequence of events, they should feel ashamed. Having done a shitty, horrific thing doesn't mean that they are irredeemable people, no, but acting as if saying "no quarter, no legitimacy, you're for democracy or against it and whatever you choose, you need to act in line with it" is the same thing as making an unforgiveable personal insult is half the reason that we are here today.
I am talking more to conservative people in my networks than I have ever done before, because my anger is giving me the confidence to insist that you had better hear me now and that you had better know the consequences I face in this new America. Not less. I am getting listened to more, and getting less in the way of defensive attempts to shut me down and slimy exhortations to think of the white men, because I am speaking with total conviction and using the emotions flowing through me to shape my rhetoric. My rage and my insistence that if conservatives want their party to be remembered as anything but Nazis, Round II, they ought to get moving and do something about it has made me more effective as a speaker and as a liberal person with principles, not less. My demand to conservatives who claim to love me that they back those claims up with action to protect me, their daughter and granddaughter and niece... well, that secured several votes for Hillary that I don't think would have happened otherwise.
So kindly quit lecturing me and people who feel like I do. It's quislings who try to reason with the unreasonable who have gotten us in this mess. I've had eight years of watching what happens when you try to reason with the Republican Party and act politely, and it's brought us here.
No quarter. No inch of ground will I yield. No iota of legitimacy will I concede before I fight for it. If democracy is to be killed, by all the gods I will make the Republican Party bleed for it in the minds of the people I speak to.
posted by sciatrix at 12:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [209 favorites]
Now that they've devolved into fights between the "understand, embrace, and convert" minority and the "fuck 'em all" mob, I think it's safe to day these so-called election threads have run their course.
I mean really, what's the point of this post being on the front page of Metafilter?
(I know..."take it to MeTa", but if this comment is a derail what is the actual fucking topic?)
posted by rocket88 at 12:02 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
I mean really, what's the point of this post being on the front page of Metafilter?
(I know..."take it to MeTa", but if this comment is a derail what is the actual fucking topic?)
posted by rocket88 at 12:02 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not if you have poor education, few mind-opening early life experiences, and no ability to tell good information from bad
I just… don't sympathize with that opinion right now, as the PEOTUS is talking about an arms race. I do not think there's a consequential difference between people who voted because they like his policies, and people who voted for him because why not.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:03 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I just… don't sympathize with that opinion right now, as the PEOTUS is talking about an arms race. I do not think there's a consequential difference between people who voted because they like his policies, and people who voted for him because why not.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:03 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's going to be "really interesting" watching our president-elect juggle the virulent anti-Semites and rabidly pro-Netanyahu supporters over the next few years of setting policy in the Middle East.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
The brownshirts are already rising and they're coming out of the people who love trump, not the people who voted for him for cultural or ignorance-related reasons.
They'll come outta those guys too. Your friends? Your neighbors? They'll turn on you too.
I hear a lot of 'they're just misunderstood.' You know who else is 'just misunderstood' and 'have a lot of good days?' This is the language of abusive relationships. This is the language of victim blaming, excuse-making and normalization. That's what people say about wife-beaters. (And hey, that's practically a requirement in this administration.)
A vote for Trump was always a vote for 'ps Mexicans are rapists.' It was always a vote for 'Obama is a seekrit Muslim Kenyan and should get no help.' Even poor ignorant FOX News guys who just want to jack off with their guns heard all that. They're not children. They knew this much.
Take whatever actions you need to take to stay safe in your very Red, very dangerous area. Schmooze. Hide. Your life matters, and you are responsible for the risks you do or do not take and why. Not everyone is in a position where they can take chances.
Just don't kid yourself and think that some of these fucks wouldn't put you on a train. They might feel bad about it, but off you'd go. If you know history, you know that all those reasonable, misunderstood, gentle anti-Semites went along for the ride.
Here's something I was looking at yesterday: Evangelicals defending Hitler back when. Sound familiar? There's your neighbors. Don't imagine anything else is going on, and especially don't try to talk the rest of us into it.
Upon preview:
Frankly, politeness doesn't work. Neutral emotions do not fucking work. "Let's all meet in the middle" does not work, it just gives people more leeway to gaslight you out of your reality and push at you until you shut up about the things you watch happening all around you. It lets people who have defensive
And if you still have the energy and patience to try it with actual conservative loved ones, more power to you, but quit fucking lecturing those of us who don't.
A-fucking-men.
posted by mordax at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [87 favorites]
They'll come outta those guys too. Your friends? Your neighbors? They'll turn on you too.
I hear a lot of 'they're just misunderstood.' You know who else is 'just misunderstood' and 'have a lot of good days?' This is the language of abusive relationships. This is the language of victim blaming, excuse-making and normalization. That's what people say about wife-beaters. (And hey, that's practically a requirement in this administration.)
A vote for Trump was always a vote for 'ps Mexicans are rapists.' It was always a vote for 'Obama is a seekrit Muslim Kenyan and should get no help.' Even poor ignorant FOX News guys who just want to jack off with their guns heard all that. They're not children. They knew this much.
Take whatever actions you need to take to stay safe in your very Red, very dangerous area. Schmooze. Hide. Your life matters, and you are responsible for the risks you do or do not take and why. Not everyone is in a position where they can take chances.
Just don't kid yourself and think that some of these fucks wouldn't put you on a train. They might feel bad about it, but off you'd go. If you know history, you know that all those reasonable, misunderstood, gentle anti-Semites went along for the ride.
Here's something I was looking at yesterday: Evangelicals defending Hitler back when. Sound familiar? There's your neighbors. Don't imagine anything else is going on, and especially don't try to talk the rest of us into it.
Upon preview:
Frankly, politeness doesn't work. Neutral emotions do not fucking work. "Let's all meet in the middle" does not work, it just gives people more leeway to gaslight you out of your reality and push at you until you shut up about the things you watch happening all around you. It lets people who have defensive
And if you still have the energy and patience to try it with actual conservative loved ones, more power to you, but quit fucking lecturing those of us who don't.
A-fucking-men.
posted by mordax at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [87 favorites]
Rocket - The problem is: Trump's shenanigans continue to be norm-breaking and discussionworthy, but not so discussionworthy as to dominate the actual discussion.
posted by Archelaus at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 12:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
All the sane people leaving the red states basically looks like right now.
As a MeFite in a red state who is tied here for the next two years minimum, or else risk losing the five years I've invested in my career entirely... well, cool, thanks for advocating that every ally I can find abandon me. Awesome. Thanks also for abandoning everyone here who can't move, who doesn't have the financial wherewithal to do so, or who relies on support from people who are also stuck here. We red liberals salute you; thanks for leaving us to die in the mud.
I have more sympathy for people who are gearing up to flee the nation than anyone who flees from a red state to a blue one, right now. And I have zero sympathy for anyone advocating that my state secede from the nation, which is a point I have been literally belaboring here for years. All of America is threatened now; if you're staying in America, fucking help those of us who are less comfortable than you are now.
posted by sciatrix at 12:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
As a MeFite in a red state who is tied here for the next two years minimum, or else risk losing the five years I've invested in my career entirely... well, cool, thanks for advocating that every ally I can find abandon me. Awesome. Thanks also for abandoning everyone here who can't move, who doesn't have the financial wherewithal to do so, or who relies on support from people who are also stuck here. We red liberals salute you; thanks for leaving us to die in the mud.
I have more sympathy for people who are gearing up to flee the nation than anyone who flees from a red state to a blue one, right now. And I have zero sympathy for anyone advocating that my state secede from the nation, which is a point I have been literally belaboring here for years. All of America is threatened now; if you're staying in America, fucking help those of us who are less comfortable than you are now.
posted by sciatrix at 12:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
No? How do you figure? The former is an entertainer deciding to turn down a gig. The latter is a medical professional refusing medical service to a specific class of people, a protected class.
No. The Rockettes are members of a professional organization. Elton John is an entertainer who can turn down a gig. Individual dancers are bound by contact to perform where their management directs.
Perhaps a better analogy would be a football player whose team is scheduled to play in North Carolina, but who wished to boycott the state. It seems perilously close to the "my conscience is the ultimate guide and I should be free from consequences" POV that the conservatives use.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 12:08 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have more sympathy for people who are gearing up to flee the nation than anyone who flees from a red state to a blue one,
Listen, if you can't leave because of your career or whatever, fine. But this is happening and if people have to go, they need to be able to.
posted by maxsparber at 12:08 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Listen, if you can't leave because of your career or whatever, fine. But this is happening and if people have to go, they need to be able to.
posted by maxsparber at 12:08 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Had my family Xmas party this past weekend. While talking with my 79 year old Fox News Republican mom, she said something to the effect that "liberals only voted for Obama because they couldn't resist the spectacle of an educated black man in public office." I called her a racist to her face, and demanded that she specifically and in depth tell me how Trump would "make America great again?" She mumbled something about the Mexican wall, and I called bullshit. Then she said "Well, it will be an interesting four years."
It's important that, in conversation with any Trump supporter at all, they be held to the absolutely highest standard of integrity and knowledge. Hammer them about "make America great again." Hammer them about Trump's misogyny. Hammer them about the Anti-science fascists he is bringing into his cabinet. SHAME THEM for their ignorance and lack of education.
posted by JohnFromGR at 12:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [69 favorites]
It's important that, in conversation with any Trump supporter at all, they be held to the absolutely highest standard of integrity and knowledge. Hammer them about "make America great again." Hammer them about Trump's misogyny. Hammer them about the Anti-science fascists he is bringing into his cabinet. SHAME THEM for their ignorance and lack of education.
posted by JohnFromGR at 12:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [69 favorites]
Individual dancers are bound by contact to perform where their management directs.
That's still not the same thing. They would be breaking a contract, not refusing service to a protected class.
posted by maxsparber at 12:12 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
That's still not the same thing. They would be breaking a contract, not refusing service to a protected class.
posted by maxsparber at 12:12 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Perhaps a better analogy would be a football player whose team is scheduled to play in North Carolina, but who wished to boycott the state.
A better analogy still, given the lack of some overarching league-wide high-kick superstructure, would probably be the Harlem Globetrotters management booking a gig for a racist and Curly Neal saying "nah, maybe let's not play funny basketball for that racist, maybe fuck that".
"Don't bail on a gig" may be a perfectly decent bit of biz philosophy but it's got even less to do with providing medical care than it has to do with a disaster like Trump throwing a party for himself. This is a silly line of argument.
posted by cortex at 12:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
A better analogy still, given the lack of some overarching league-wide high-kick superstructure, would probably be the Harlem Globetrotters management booking a gig for a racist and Curly Neal saying "nah, maybe let's not play funny basketball for that racist, maybe fuck that".
"Don't bail on a gig" may be a perfectly decent bit of biz philosophy but it's got even less to do with providing medical care than it has to do with a disaster like Trump throwing a party for himself. This is a silly line of argument.
posted by cortex at 12:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
Listen, if you can't leave because of your career or whatever, fine. But this is happening and if people have to go, they need to be able to.
This shitheel (Spencer) is in my backyard. A couple towns over. His open supporters are few for now and I along with a lot of my fellow Montanans are going to keep it that way. I am not leaving until it is too dangerous. I am staying and fighting. I'm doing that because I know the risk of leaving now and leaving my still reachable neighbors to his influence. This is the peril of dismissing all trump supporters: someone even worse will get to them if you don't.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
This shitheel (Spencer) is in my backyard. A couple towns over. His open supporters are few for now and I along with a lot of my fellow Montanans are going to keep it that way. I am not leaving until it is too dangerous. I am staying and fighting. I'm doing that because I know the risk of leaving now and leaving my still reachable neighbors to his influence. This is the peril of dismissing all trump supporters: someone even worse will get to them if you don't.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
I replied to a comment on a friend's FB post-- you know the kind, all "give him a chance" and "let's see what his team can do!"-- and, curious about the person I'd just responded to, clicked over to his timeline. And there I found this, which I bring by way of example. This is how (at least some of) the evangelicals voted for T., and this is what you cannot reason them out of. Because it's voodoo.
He will be the first pro-Israel president to rule during the fifth decade (50 years) of the taking of the Temple Mount and the wailing wall in Jerusalem. He would be the first president to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the annexation of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.posted by jokeefe at 12:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
5 decades of the conquest of Mount
7 Decades of Trump's Life
7 months since last birthday
7 days
5777 current Hebrew year.
To win Trump would be the # 45 president.
Isaiah 45 = Jehovah calls the king Cyrus the anointed one.
King Cyrus of Persia authorizes Ezra and Nehemiah to rebuild the WALLS and CITIES in Jerusalem. King Cyrus allows the Israelites to build the second temple. King Cyrus saved the people of God from dying at the hands of Haman after hearing the request of Queen Esther.
Keywords: WALL, CITY, TEMPLE
The three pillars of Trump's political platform:
1. Build a WALL
2. Rehabilitate the CITIES
3. Restore RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
Chance or prophecy? Judge for yourself.
SHAME THEM for their ignorance and lack of education
People don't like being shamed and they resist it with everything they've got.
Expose them to their ignorance without judgement and they'll feel their own sufficient shame. Hammer them and they'll just grab a shield and get a hammer of their own.
posted by rocket88 at 12:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
People don't like being shamed and they resist it with everything they've got.
Expose them to their ignorance without judgement and they'll feel their own sufficient shame. Hammer them and they'll just grab a shield and get a hammer of their own.
posted by rocket88 at 12:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
I am staying and fighting.
Well, again, that may be a good policy for you, but I am going to prioritize not getting murdered by an antisemite over trying to influence less-racist Trump supporters. I think that's a fair thing for me to do, as enough Sparbers were murdered by antisemites in the last century for it to be reasonable to ask for more of them to be murdered in this one.
posted by maxsparber at 12:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
Well, again, that may be a good policy for you, but I am going to prioritize not getting murdered by an antisemite over trying to influence less-racist Trump supporters. I think that's a fair thing for me to do, as enough Sparbers were murdered by antisemites in the last century for it to be reasonable to ask for more of them to be murdered in this one.
posted by maxsparber at 12:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
In Depressed Rural Kentucky, Worries Mount Over Medicaid Cutbacks
posted by robbyrobs at 12:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 12:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
if people have to go, they need to be able to.
I agree. If you think that's the best thing or the only thing for you or your family, awesome. But I need allies too, and I really resent presenting leaving as the only good and right thing that people can do. And I'm angry and guilty and upset because my partner wants to leave ASAP and honestly, frankly, I want to stay and fight tooth and nail for my neighbors and all the people I know and love here, in this place. My city here is angry and trying to do its best to fight for America, with not only a state arrayed against it but also now the federal government. Seeing my fellow liberals advocate to abandon us--and all the other liberal pockets in this purple country trying to do their fucking best by the nation--that hurts in a really fucking sore spot right now.
If you have to go, go, and godspeed. But if you don't, well, we need you here as badly as anyone else; if you think you're not in immediate danger, help us fight to protect people who aren't strong and wealthy enough to pick up and flee. Help us.
Please help us.
posted by sciatrix at 12:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
I agree. If you think that's the best thing or the only thing for you or your family, awesome. But I need allies too, and I really resent presenting leaving as the only good and right thing that people can do. And I'm angry and guilty and upset because my partner wants to leave ASAP and honestly, frankly, I want to stay and fight tooth and nail for my neighbors and all the people I know and love here, in this place. My city here is angry and trying to do its best to fight for America, with not only a state arrayed against it but also now the federal government. Seeing my fellow liberals advocate to abandon us--and all the other liberal pockets in this purple country trying to do their fucking best by the nation--that hurts in a really fucking sore spot right now.
If you have to go, go, and godspeed. But if you don't, well, we need you here as badly as anyone else; if you think you're not in immediate danger, help us fight to protect people who aren't strong and wealthy enough to pick up and flee. Help us.
Please help us.
posted by sciatrix at 12:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
Well, again, that may be a good policy for you, but I am going to prioritize not getting murdered by an antisemite over trying to influence less-racist Trump supporters. I
Run from nazis when they're too few and too cowardly to put their Reichsmarks where their mouths are and you set a terrible precedent. My neighbors voted for a nazi-backed candidate but they don't think they did and if I nope out now then someone will keep whispering in their ear until they think it's perfectly ok to vote for a nazi.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Run from nazis when they're too few and too cowardly to put their Reichsmarks where their mouths are and you set a terrible precedent. My neighbors voted for a nazi-backed candidate but they don't think they did and if I nope out now then someone will keep whispering in their ear until they think it's perfectly ok to vote for a nazi.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
But in some parts of the country, if you're not highly educated you will vote for whichever candidate looks less like The Government.
In general, that's only true if you're white.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:22 PM on December 23, 2016 [18 favorites]
In general, that's only true if you're white.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:22 PM on December 23, 2016 [18 favorites]
All the sane people leaving the red states basically looks like right now.
sciatrix, I thought that was a criticism of the idea, saying that liberals moving out of red states is how those states managed to elect Trump.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
sciatrix, I thought that was a criticism of the idea, saying that liberals moving out of red states is how those states managed to elect Trump.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The United States has so far spent 240 years coddling racists. How much longer should we continue before they can be expected to hug back?
Nah. Conservatives looove to preach individual responsibility and that actions have consequences. So here's the consequences: now you don't get a free ride. You get called on your bullshit. So take some damn responsibility for it.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [77 favorites]
Nah. Conservatives looove to preach individual responsibility and that actions have consequences. So here's the consequences: now you don't get a free ride. You get called on your bullshit. So take some damn responsibility for it.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [77 favorites]
In general, that's only true if you're white
And in those parts of the country, almost everybody's white. Racism/white resentment/white fragility might indeed be at the heart of a majority of trump voters' motivations but even this has some manifestations that are less consciously or intentionally hateful and more reachable.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
And in those parts of the country, almost everybody's white. Racism/white resentment/white fragility might indeed be at the heart of a majority of trump voters' motivations but even this has some manifestations that are less consciously or intentionally hateful and more reachable.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
So here's the consequences: now you don't get a free ride. You get called on your bullshit. So take some damn responsibility for it.
You know, of course, they'll figure a way to blame Obama for anything bad happening over the next four years.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:27 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
You know, of course, they'll figure a way to blame Obama for anything bad happening over the next four years.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:27 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I agree that the inauguration doesn't deserve knee-jerk deference; it's a protest of the incoming administration, not the people. Treating Trump as if he's a normal, qualified legitimate leader is not the way to go. Every instance that we can resist him, we are obligated to resist.
Individual dancers are bound by contact to perform where their management directs.
That's still not the same thing. They would be breaking a contract, not refusing service to a protected class.
Yes; dancers have not taken a hippocratic oath or at least an ethical stance on providing equal opportunity to healthcare. They signed on to kick high and twirl around.
To tack onto what other people said, I don't think building bridges is the way to go in dealing with republicans. Their method of success was obstruction, obstruction and more obstruction. It's about time we follow their lead. It seems even Obama is reconsidering his "give him a chance" tactic by pushing through legislation that will hopefully block his efforts to destroy the environment.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Individual dancers are bound by contact to perform where their management directs.
That's still not the same thing. They would be breaking a contract, not refusing service to a protected class.
Yes; dancers have not taken a hippocratic oath or at least an ethical stance on providing equal opportunity to healthcare. They signed on to kick high and twirl around.
To tack onto what other people said, I don't think building bridges is the way to go in dealing with republicans. Their method of success was obstruction, obstruction and more obstruction. It's about time we follow their lead. It seems even Obama is reconsidering his "give him a chance" tactic by pushing through legislation that will hopefully block his efforts to destroy the environment.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
I really resent presenting leaving as the only good and right thing that people can do.
I don't think it's the only good and right thing to do, but you have to understand that for Jews, in particular, it's not the court of last resort. The reason so many died in Europe is because people were entrenched and didn't believe things could get worse.
I don't know. I don't know what is possible now. Aleppo is one of the oldest continually inhabited cities in the world, and, prior to the Syrian Civil War, was a modern, international city. Look at it now.
I can't trust that anyplace is safe from being Aleppo just now. Maybe in a little while, when things settle, I'll be more confident. But I do not share many people's belief that America is unique enough that terrible things can't happen here, and we have a massive rise in the same sort of ultra-nationalistic rhetoric that has been happening in Europe, coupled with a sociopathic leader who is more than willing to encourage white nationalism while at the same time blithely starting arms races with Russia and trade wars with China on Twitter -- before ever being sworn into office.
I guess, for me, the lesson of the Holocaust was that when you feel that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, when things start getting topsy turvy and people start casting about for who to make the next victim, if you get the feeling that maybe it's time to hit the road, well, it's time to hit the road. Find the places where you have a support network. For me, it is here in Minneapolis.
posted by maxsparber at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
I don't think it's the only good and right thing to do, but you have to understand that for Jews, in particular, it's not the court of last resort. The reason so many died in Europe is because people were entrenched and didn't believe things could get worse.
I don't know. I don't know what is possible now. Aleppo is one of the oldest continually inhabited cities in the world, and, prior to the Syrian Civil War, was a modern, international city. Look at it now.
I can't trust that anyplace is safe from being Aleppo just now. Maybe in a little while, when things settle, I'll be more confident. But I do not share many people's belief that America is unique enough that terrible things can't happen here, and we have a massive rise in the same sort of ultra-nationalistic rhetoric that has been happening in Europe, coupled with a sociopathic leader who is more than willing to encourage white nationalism while at the same time blithely starting arms races with Russia and trade wars with China on Twitter -- before ever being sworn into office.
I guess, for me, the lesson of the Holocaust was that when you feel that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, when things start getting topsy turvy and people start casting about for who to make the next victim, if you get the feeling that maybe it's time to hit the road, well, it's time to hit the road. Find the places where you have a support network. For me, it is here in Minneapolis.
posted by maxsparber at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
Name three bridges that Trump, his supporters, or his team has built to his opponents. No, name one.
Maybe this hits me harder because it's Christmas, but: I refuse to let my morals or my tactics be dictated by the standards of MAGAshirts. I believe in building bridges. It's who I am. I believe we must build bridges if we are to survive as a people. You can't just kill half the country. You have to persuade them.
So I'm going to keep doing this admittedly heartbreaking and difficult work. Because it needs doing, and I'm someone with the spoons currently to do it.
posted by corb at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [39 favorites]
Maybe this hits me harder because it's Christmas, but: I refuse to let my morals or my tactics be dictated by the standards of MAGAshirts. I believe in building bridges. It's who I am. I believe we must build bridges if we are to survive as a people. You can't just kill half the country. You have to persuade them.
So I'm going to keep doing this admittedly heartbreaking and difficult work. Because it needs doing, and I'm someone with the spoons currently to do it.
posted by corb at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [39 favorites]
Hammer them and they'll just grab a shield and get a hammer of their own.
Sorry if you've been too privileged and out of touch to notice, but they are already actually holding like five hammers and a butcher knife and a golf club and they've been beating the hell out of a good portion of the country for a while now. At this point they're holding a lit grenade and the left is finally tired of standing by and watching them hurt us and people we love. Yeah, I'm picking up that fucking hammer. I'm done. I'm fighting back.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 12:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [49 favorites]
Sorry if you've been too privileged and out of touch to notice, but they are already actually holding like five hammers and a butcher knife and a golf club and they've been beating the hell out of a good portion of the country for a while now. At this point they're holding a lit grenade and the left is finally tired of standing by and watching them hurt us and people we love. Yeah, I'm picking up that fucking hammer. I'm done. I'm fighting back.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 12:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [49 favorites]
I feel like I'm going to be repeating some variation on "omg pay attention to what Moral Mondays is really doing" a lot in the coming years but seriously, people in North Carolina are already dealing with things that the rest of us are just fearing, and there's incredible work being done there that can turn it around, and is turning it around - indeed most of what they're facing is the reaction of Southern Strategy Republicans seeing their house of cards about to tumble because of what Moral Mondays has done, because of how effective their threat is, because they're bringing poor whites out of the narrative the Republicans want them stuck in. They're explicitly pursuing a fusion politics strategy that both fights for social justice for all and brings Republican voters on board, no progressives are compromising their values. Seeing majority white NAACP chapters in Appalachia is like seeing a damn unicorn in the flesh but it's real, it's happening, there is a framework for an effective plan that transcends this "should I handle Trumpists with kid gloves" thing and all it needs is attention and support. Just please, if you feel like the whole fight is overwhelming and choosing any path drives wedges deeper, think of this and look really hard at what Moral Mondays really is and how it works beyond just the surface level "protest group" thing. It has the potential to change the world for the better and Rev. Barber and the people working with him are basically handing us the whole framework on a platter. It's the real deal kind of movement that's usually relegated to history or fiction and it's right there, but I think people only see "protest group" and move on until you can convince them to really look at it.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [110 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 12:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [110 favorites]
I guess, for me, the lesson of the Holocaust was that when you feel that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, when things start getting topsy turvy and people start casting about for who to make the next victim, if you get the feeling that maybe it's time to hit the road, well, it's time to hit the road. Find the places where you have a support network. For me, it is here in Minneapolis.
If I thought a level of threat of racial violence similar to that of the nazis was comparably close to happening in Nebraska I would not stop as far as Minnesota but would either leave the country or start actively preparing for civil war and the collapse of civilization. If they're gonna load me onto a cattle car in my neighborhood it will be after a few years of worsening circumstances. That's when it's time to consider getting out of dodge. For now this is my home and a few redhats will not drive me out.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
If I thought a level of threat of racial violence similar to that of the nazis was comparably close to happening in Nebraska I would not stop as far as Minnesota but would either leave the country or start actively preparing for civil war and the collapse of civilization. If they're gonna load me onto a cattle car in my neighborhood it will be after a few years of worsening circumstances. That's when it's time to consider getting out of dodge. For now this is my home and a few redhats will not drive me out.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I do like this presumption that shame doesn't work. Boy howdy, it sure does. Every change I have made in my life has been because I have been mortified at myself. And that moment didn't happen because somebody took me by the hand and led me gently to a woke state. It's because people unequivocally told me I was being awful.
posted by maxsparber at 12:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [45 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 12:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [45 favorites]
Chance or prophecy? Judge for yourself.
man wait til they hear about BILL GATES = 666
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
man wait til they hear about BILL GATES = 666
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's when it's time to consider getting out of dodge.
Maybe you have read the history of the Holocaust differently than I have. From everything I have read, the people who waited until what was happening was undeniable were the people who waited too long.
posted by maxsparber at 12:39 PM on December 23, 2016 [24 favorites]
Maybe you have read the history of the Holocaust differently than I have. From everything I have read, the people who waited until what was happening was undeniable were the people who waited too long.
posted by maxsparber at 12:39 PM on December 23, 2016 [24 favorites]
We have to stop blaming people for not knowing things. They need to know things, and just like a teacher doesn't accomplish anything by blaming ill-prepared students, new approaches are needed. Get out there and start explaining, carefully, using every single tool you have.
This applies doubly to politicians. It's a very challenging problem. Get on it.
posted by amtho at 12:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
This applies doubly to politicians. It's a very challenging problem. Get on it.
posted by amtho at 12:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Anyway, people shouldn't have to wait for the cattlecars. If they think they will be subject to any sort of threat, or any sort of harassment, that's a good enough reason in my book to leave.
posted by maxsparber at 12:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 12:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's the only good and right thing to do, but you have to understand that for Jews, in particular, it's not the court of last resort. The reason so many died in Europe is because people were entrenched and didn't believe things could get worse.
I think this overlooks the reality that a lot of people didn't have the resources to leave.
posted by hoyland at 12:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think this overlooks the reality that a lot of people didn't have the resources to leave.
posted by hoyland at 12:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
We have to stop blaming people for not knowing things.
Who do you need to explain to that people of color are people?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
Who do you need to explain to that people of color are people?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
I believe we must build bridges if we are to survive as a people. You can't just kill half the country. You have to persuade them.
Nope, you have to beat them. We have been building bridges for decades and Republicans have been blowing them up with us on them. They are only 25% of the electorate. 11 million more people voted against Trump than for him. 80 million people didn't vote at all. They are a minority who has constantly rejected facts and equality in favor of hate and bigotry. Not to say the Democratic Party platform should be 'fuck you', but it should continue to be focused on a multi-cultural, liberal future, not pandering to fickle white probable racists.
posted by chris24 at 12:42 PM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
Nope, you have to beat them. We have been building bridges for decades and Republicans have been blowing them up with us on them. They are only 25% of the electorate. 11 million more people voted against Trump than for him. 80 million people didn't vote at all. They are a minority who has constantly rejected facts and equality in favor of hate and bigotry. Not to say the Democratic Party platform should be 'fuck you', but it should continue to be focused on a multi-cultural, liberal future, not pandering to fickle white probable racists.
posted by chris24 at 12:42 PM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
I'm pretty sure I've waited too long to leave, but there's nowhere that's going to take me and I couldn't afford to get there anyway, and I can't leave my old mom either. The best I can do is limit myself to blue states where I have healthcare without the ACA and access to public accommodations (so far like 9 of 50? I haven't checked lately.)
So I should hope that those of you not directly under attack by the Republicans might accept the humanity and agency of Republicans and work your asses off to reach out, educate, criticize, and protest.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:43 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
So I should hope that those of you not directly under attack by the Republicans might accept the humanity and agency of Republicans and work your asses off to reach out, educate, criticize, and protest.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:43 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
As to the U.N., things will be different after Jan. 20th.
We're getting kicked out?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
As to the U.N., things will be different after Jan. 20th.
We're getting kicked out?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
Maybe you have read the history of the Holocaust differently than I have. From everything I have read, the people who waited until what was happening was undeniable were the people who waited too long.
If you're right, it's 1932 Germany right now. It became progressively more difficult to emigrate but didn't become practically impossible until the outbreak of the war in 1939. I'm staying as long as possible, even if I have means having to leave my property, belongings, money and community behind as the later emigres did.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you're right, it's 1932 Germany right now. It became progressively more difficult to emigrate but didn't become practically impossible until the outbreak of the war in 1939. I'm staying as long as possible, even if I have means having to leave my property, belongings, money and community behind as the later emigres did.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not quite sure how my request that we not judge people who choose not to stay in red states has started to turn into a defense of those who do choose to stay. Nobody is saying you have to leave.
Just understand that, for some people, they do have to leave.
posted by maxsparber at 12:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Just understand that, for some people, they do have to leave.
posted by maxsparber at 12:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
As to the U.N., things will be different after Jan. 20th.
We're getting kicked out?
The US abstained on the UN vote on Israel today, so the Security Council resolution calling for the end of Israeli settlements passed.
posted by chris24 at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
As to the U.N., things will be different after Jan. 20th.
We're getting kicked out?
The US abstained on the UN vote on Israel today, so the Security Council resolution calling for the end of Israeli settlements passed.
posted by chris24 at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mod note: I feel like we're in a loop here on stay vs. go and I kind of doubt that continuing to scrimmage the football back and forth on the Weimar Timeline is going to resolve that; maybe let's leave it at having said your respective pieces and move on at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Just understand that, for some people, they do have to leave.
Point taken. I can't help but encourage people to stay and fight for those who need defending, if they are able.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Point taken. I can't help but encourage people to stay and fight for those who need defending, if they are able.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
move on at this point
I DID MOVE CORTEX THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT JEEZ
Minneapolis gets fucking cold, by the way.
posted by maxsparber at 12:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
I DID MOVE CORTEX THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT JEEZ
Minneapolis gets fucking cold, by the way.
posted by maxsparber at 12:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
And that moment didn't happen because somebody took me by the hand and led me gently to a woke state.
I've been informed by a black linguist that white people aren't allowed to use the word "woke" because of its roots in AAVE, which we continue to disparage. We may refer to ourselves as "awake."
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've been informed by a black linguist that white people aren't allowed to use the word "woke" because of its roots in AAVE, which we continue to disparage. We may refer to ourselves as "awake."
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Fair enough. I defer to the linguist.
posted by maxsparber at 12:52 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 12:52 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
linguist
good luck to him, but controlling how words spread isn't really a thing that works, usually
posted by thelonius at 12:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
good luck to him, but controlling how words spread isn't really a thing that works, usually
posted by thelonius at 12:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
Maxsparber, I hear you. And I'm watching closely to the same narratives you are. I am afraid, because my groups were targeted too--less than yours, especially given I'm female, but then I'm not--I'm not good at being quiet and forcibly going along with the gendered aspect of this shit and I remember what they wanted out of women and the more I dwell on that possibility, the more I become filled with white-eyed terror, so I'm going to stop there. I like my terror to be productive, enabling me to either fight or flee; freezing seems to be the worst case response for this scenario.
I don't think we are at the same place. I think we are on the road to that future, and I am thinking of the places in Europe that mitigated that future, and the worst places in China that didn't even get the credit of public international remembrance and a national ethos of atonement or even punishment for war criminals over the local genocides that happened there. I am thinking of what I know about genocide and what I know about targets thereof, and I am thinking that the best way for me to leverage any weapon I have against it is to get loud and cling to my allies and fellow threatened Americans and build as much social support for us, so that we all can scream together. I think we are on the road to that future, all being herded along by mass inertia and the cattle prods of a self-enriching evil subset, but I also think we are not so close to the gates that gritting our teeth, wheeling, and using any weapon we can to push the crowd to turn around, turn around, or at least stop will do nothing.
A Muslim registry, to me for example, says: "well, that's not directly attacking me, but I might be next. I'd better the fuck stop that poem at "first they came for the Muslims" before it gets to me, and show up at the mosques and use my white face and bare head to shame my sisters, my mother, my kin and people who look like my kin into rescinding support." That's one step down the path to the gates of that terrible future, and while we're so near that it terrifies me to think of it, I can make them bleed and cut me down and expose their horror for what it is rather than let the cattlemen prod the rest of the nation down that rough path. And because I am not the target of the Muslim registry, perhaps the crowd will listen to me. Perhaps if they try to register queers next and paint us as perverts or monsters, Muslims and Jews and people of color and other women and disabled folk will stand with us.
The cattleherds pushing us towards that dark future will attack whomever among us they think is weakest and least beloved by critical majorities of people. So it is our job, we who see the threats and feel them in our bones, to scream at the shambling masses who are convinced that it has no come to this, plead with them, reason, but above all else use any weapons we can to make them look down the road and see where it is that we are going. Especially those who love us and know us, because they are the people most likely to awaken when we beg them to stop because we are afraid.
I know in my bones that it could happen here. That's why I'm staying for now, and that's why I'm screaming. I am watching carefully for particular signs that it will get worse, but I have never trusted a state legislature to protect me; after all, I've never lived anywhere where the state government didn't actively wallow in delight over its hatred of me. I am devising an escape plan. I just am hoping that I can save some of the people being carried along by the crowd, the people who are tied to other members of the crowd, and the people who will blindly follow the crowd wherever it goes, before I become too afraid to stay and turn to run.
And if I misjudge badly and am killed, well, I have made my peace with that. We are all responsible for our own decisions.
posted by sciatrix at 12:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
I don't think we are at the same place. I think we are on the road to that future, and I am thinking of the places in Europe that mitigated that future, and the worst places in China that didn't even get the credit of public international remembrance and a national ethos of atonement or even punishment for war criminals over the local genocides that happened there. I am thinking of what I know about genocide and what I know about targets thereof, and I am thinking that the best way for me to leverage any weapon I have against it is to get loud and cling to my allies and fellow threatened Americans and build as much social support for us, so that we all can scream together. I think we are on the road to that future, all being herded along by mass inertia and the cattle prods of a self-enriching evil subset, but I also think we are not so close to the gates that gritting our teeth, wheeling, and using any weapon we can to push the crowd to turn around, turn around, or at least stop will do nothing.
A Muslim registry, to me for example, says: "well, that's not directly attacking me, but I might be next. I'd better the fuck stop that poem at "first they came for the Muslims" before it gets to me, and show up at the mosques and use my white face and bare head to shame my sisters, my mother, my kin and people who look like my kin into rescinding support." That's one step down the path to the gates of that terrible future, and while we're so near that it terrifies me to think of it, I can make them bleed and cut me down and expose their horror for what it is rather than let the cattlemen prod the rest of the nation down that rough path. And because I am not the target of the Muslim registry, perhaps the crowd will listen to me. Perhaps if they try to register queers next and paint us as perverts or monsters, Muslims and Jews and people of color and other women and disabled folk will stand with us.
The cattleherds pushing us towards that dark future will attack whomever among us they think is weakest and least beloved by critical majorities of people. So it is our job, we who see the threats and feel them in our bones, to scream at the shambling masses who are convinced that it has no come to this, plead with them, reason, but above all else use any weapons we can to make them look down the road and see where it is that we are going. Especially those who love us and know us, because they are the people most likely to awaken when we beg them to stop because we are afraid.
I know in my bones that it could happen here. That's why I'm staying for now, and that's why I'm screaming. I am watching carefully for particular signs that it will get worse, but I have never trusted a state legislature to protect me; after all, I've never lived anywhere where the state government didn't actively wallow in delight over its hatred of me. I am devising an escape plan. I just am hoping that I can save some of the people being carried along by the crowd, the people who are tied to other members of the crowd, and the people who will blindly follow the crowd wherever it goes, before I become too afraid to stay and turn to run.
And if I misjudge badly and am killed, well, I have made my peace with that. We are all responsible for our own decisions.
posted by sciatrix at 12:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
(Oh, hell, cortex, thread moved on before I finished typing that massive thing. I'm kind of hoping it can stay anyway, but I feel the desire to not wind up in a massive fight here too.)
posted by sciatrix at 12:59 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 12:59 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Who do you need to explain to that people of color are people?
There are unreachable people there who believe that, absolutely. But there are also reachable people who have bought into the myth that pits poor whites against a scapegoated POC and can be shown that they were mislead. This is still the same very old fight that we haven't finished, but we are making headway. Again, to continue being a broken record: Rev. Barber/Moral Mondays/Third Reconstruction, this hard and slow work is being done effectively right now, and needs a helping hand.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:59 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
There are unreachable people there who believe that, absolutely. But there are also reachable people who have bought into the myth that pits poor whites against a scapegoated POC and can be shown that they were mislead. This is still the same very old fight that we haven't finished, but we are making headway. Again, to continue being a broken record: Rev. Barber/Moral Mondays/Third Reconstruction, this hard and slow work is being done effectively right now, and needs a helping hand.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:59 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
I've noticed that the majority of "I'll never again for all eternity make non-scowly faces at anyone who voted for Trump!!!!" performative huffs I see are from white people. As a generalization, I've noticed that people of color tend to understand much better that systems of oppression are complex and deep; that none of these problems were magically born on November 8, 2016; and that ultimately whatever happens we're all consigned to live on this chunk of earth together and figure out a way to make it work. Anger can be an incredibly important tool for change but I think it's exigent on people, especially people who in various ways may have more privilege, to be reflective about whether they're really using anger as a tool or whether they're just throwing a tantrum. Tantrums have their place too, but as a private outlet for self-care.
posted by zokni at 1:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by zokni at 1:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
China has tried to stay positive with Trump. But it calls his trade chief pick ‘no laughing matter.’
posted by futz at 1:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 1:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
apropos of a few comments in the other thread. A pet peeve of mine: Vlad is not, in fact, short for Vladimir. It's short for Vladislav. The diminutive for Vladimir is Vova. This has been an important service announcement.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [71 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [71 favorites]
I've noticed that the majority of "I'll never again for all eternity make non-scowly faces at anyone who voted for Trump!!!!" performative huffs I see are from white people.
Funny, because it seems to me that the majority of the "We've got to be understanding and empathetic and give everyone the benefit of the doubt" lectures I've seen are from white people, and often relatively privileged white people at that. Communities who are actually afraid for their safety and survival seem to be a lot less empathetic with the lot that's working to persecute them.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 1:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Funny, because it seems to me that the majority of the "We've got to be understanding and empathetic and give everyone the benefit of the doubt" lectures I've seen are from white people, and often relatively privileged white people at that. Communities who are actually afraid for their safety and survival seem to be a lot less empathetic with the lot that's working to persecute them.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 1:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
As to the U.N., things will be different after Jan. 20th.
We're getting kicked out?
Hell, it's always been a wet dream of the right to leave the UN altogether, so who knows what the coming trainwreck has in mind.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
As to the U.N., things will be different after Jan. 20th.
We're getting kicked out?
Hell, it's always been a wet dream of the right to leave the UN altogether, so who knows what the coming trainwreck has in mind.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've noticed that the majority of "I'll never again for all eternity make non-scowly faces at anyone who voted for Trump!!!!" performative huffs I see are from white people
Gosh, what a shitty way of phrasing that. I expect that was intentional.
Just out of curiosity, do you expect me to interact with the same amount or lesser shittiness when I am expected to talk with Trump supporters?
posted by maxsparber at 1:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Gosh, what a shitty way of phrasing that. I expect that was intentional.
Just out of curiosity, do you expect me to interact with the same amount or lesser shittiness when I am expected to talk with Trump supporters?
posted by maxsparber at 1:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Funny, because it seems to me that the majority of the "We've got to be understanding and empathetic and give everyone the benefit of the doubt" lectures I've seen are from white people, and often relatively privileged white people at that.
Hmm, it seems quite possible that both are true, as the statements don't have any particular relation to one another and there are a lot of white people around to say things!
posted by zokni at 1:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hmm, it seems quite possible that both are true, as the statements don't have any particular relation to one another and there are a lot of white people around to say things!
posted by zokni at 1:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, liberals are arming,
I'm relieved to hear this. I know progressives already know the lesson that social ties and a properly functioning accountable government are a better source of strength than individualism and weapons, and I'm glad the emphasis is on organizing and reaching out.
But if it comes down to it, weapons and social ties are better. And might be necessary if Trump stands behind some of his more feverish and fascist rhetoric.
posted by wildblueyonder at 1:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm relieved to hear this. I know progressives already know the lesson that social ties and a properly functioning accountable government are a better source of strength than individualism and weapons, and I'm glad the emphasis is on organizing and reaching out.
But if it comes down to it, weapons and social ties are better. And might be necessary if Trump stands behind some of his more feverish and fascist rhetoric.
posted by wildblueyonder at 1:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I feel like most of the all-or-nothing on both the "I will never talk to or acknowledge the existence of a Trump voter ever again without spitting right between their eyes" and "we have to understand eeeeeveryone and listen to their concerns and reach out and reach out and reach out until we finally make peace" sides of the fence are from relatively unaffected white people, actually. Most of the people who I see who are bone-deep terrified, wherever they're coming from, are trying to use whatever weapons they can lay hands on to achieve change--even if they disagree about the most effective weapons out there, and even if they emphasize one or the other in rhetoric.
posted by sciatrix at 1:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 1:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
China has tried to stay positive with Trump. But it calls his trade chief pick ‘no laughing matter.
"Mr Trump, we are going to place a trillion dollars in treasuries on the open market. Have a nice rest of your life."
posted by Talez at 1:12 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
"Mr Trump, we are going to place a trillion dollars in treasuries on the open market. Have a nice rest of your life."
posted by Talez at 1:12 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
All my tolerance is being expended on a person in my life who was a Sanders supporter and voted third party in PA. Every single fucking day I want to tell her that she's a fucking idiot, and every single fucking day I don't, because she's a member of the family and non-excludable.
But really the notion of my just like INSERTING that knowledge into her head that she was a real fucking idiot makes my mouth water.
posted by angrycat at 1:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
But really the notion of my just like INSERTING that knowledge into her head that she was a real fucking idiot makes my mouth water.
posted by angrycat at 1:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
Her. Thank you. I was wrong to presume gender. Should have said them.
posted by maxsparber at 1:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 1:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Wait. That wasn't me.
APOLOGY RESCINDED!
posted by maxsparber at 1:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
APOLOGY RESCINDED!
posted by maxsparber at 1:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
*snickers* it is good to know I am not the only person who tends to apologize for things that aren't my fault
or, in times of stress, apologize for inanimate objects
posted by sciatrix at 1:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
or, in times of stress, apologize for inanimate objects
posted by sciatrix at 1:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump [real, wtf]
The terrorist who killed so many people in Germany said just before crime, "by God's will we will slaughter you pigs, I swear, we will......
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
The terrorist who killed so many people in Germany said just before crime, "by God's will we will slaughter you pigs, I swear, we will......
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've noticed that the majority of "I'll never again for all eternity make non-scowly faces at anyone who voted for Trump!!!!" performative huffs I see are from white people. As a generalization, I've noticed that people of color tend to understand much better that systems of oppression are complex and deep; that none of these problems were magically born on November 8, 2016
I'm guessing that this is at least in part directed at me since one of my recent comments specified I was white. I'll let you read all my "performative huffs" over the last 18 months and judge if I'm throwing a tantrum. Or if my donations, volunteering, work projects, and hours, days, months and years of trying to use my privilege to convince family, friends and others that my PoC and LGBT loved ones are worthy of equality, hell of living are just tantrums as well born on November 8.
I mean yeah, things are complex and deep. But not too complex or deep as to reduce a recent comment into a history of "performative huffs" huh?
posted by chris24 at 1:22 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm guessing that this is at least in part directed at me since one of my recent comments specified I was white. I'll let you read all my "performative huffs" over the last 18 months and judge if I'm throwing a tantrum. Or if my donations, volunteering, work projects, and hours, days, months and years of trying to use my privilege to convince family, friends and others that my PoC and LGBT loved ones are worthy of equality, hell of living are just tantrums as well born on November 8.
I mean yeah, things are complex and deep. But not too complex or deep as to reduce a recent comment into a history of "performative huffs" huh?
posted by chris24 at 1:22 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
How does he know the terrorist said that?
posted by asteria at 1:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by asteria at 1:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
You missed the rest...
@realDonaldTrump
... slaughter you. This is a purely religious threat, which turned into reality. Such hatred! When will the U.S., and all countries, fight back?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
@realDonaldTrump
... slaughter you. This is a purely religious threat, which turned into reality. Such hatred! When will the U.S., and all countries, fight back?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
> How does he know the terrorist said that?
Check out snuff tape.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Check out snuff tape.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
I have no idea how he knows that, but I think he genuinely wants to start a religious war. From my imperfectly informed perspective, that would be playing right into the hands of ISIS and other radical groups.
Second tweet in the series: "slaughter you. This is a purely religious threat, which turned into reality. Such hatred! When will the U.S., and all countries, fight back?"
posted by Leslie Knope at 1:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Second tweet in the series: "slaughter you. This is a purely religious threat, which turned into reality. Such hatred! When will the U.S., and all countries, fight back?"
posted by Leslie Knope at 1:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
His saying the terrorist said that means the terrorist said that. He's our leader, after all, are you gonna believe some dead terrorist's word over his?
posted by contraption at 1:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by contraption at 1:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
We may refer to ourselves as "awake."
Wouldn't it be 'awoken' or 'awakened?'
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wouldn't it be 'awoken' or 'awakened?'
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Racism, transphobia and misogyny are a valid culture now?
If this election has taught me anything it's that these cultures have more supporters than I ever expected. It doesn't make them valid, but I think it makes them all too real.
posted by bendy at 1:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
If this election has taught me anything it's that these cultures have more supporters than I ever expected. It doesn't make them valid, but I think it makes them all too real.
posted by bendy at 1:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
or, in times of stress, apologize for inanimate objects
But do you apologize to inanimate objects when you bump into them? Because that is the mark of a true Upper Midwesterner or a Canadian
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
But do you apologize to inanimate objects when you bump into them? Because that is the mark of a true Upper Midwesterner or a Canadian
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
for what it's worth, my personal definition of the performative huffs leans toward people who are like "oh no the apocalypse has come, there is nothing I can do, I will just lie here forever and make snide comments about how the country is being consumed by rednecks, and by the way I voted third party/didn't vote at all because it's not like one vote ever made a difference!"
And I have seen some people doing this. It drives me fucknuts. I assumed zokni was referring to those people rather than specifically to anyone here, although I do see why their comment hit a bit of a nerve.
posted by sciatrix at 1:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
And I have seen some people doing this. It drives me fucknuts. I assumed zokni was referring to those people rather than specifically to anyone here, although I do see why their comment hit a bit of a nerve.
posted by sciatrix at 1:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
But do you apologize to inanimate objects when you bump into them? Because that is the mark of a true Upper Midwesterner or a Canadian
I'm so Minnesotan that not only do I apologize to furniture I bump into, but I then go into the next room and, just loud enough to be heard, say "It would be nice if somebody were to apologize back to me."
posted by maxsparber at 1:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [46 favorites]
I'm so Minnesotan that not only do I apologize to furniture I bump into, but I then go into the next room and, just loud enough to be heard, say "It would be nice if somebody were to apologize back to me."
posted by maxsparber at 1:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [46 favorites]
Racism, transphobia and misogyny are a valid culture now?
That's a different sense of the word 'culture' (although maybe that was the point here).
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:30 PM on December 23, 2016
That's a different sense of the word 'culture' (although maybe that was the point here).
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:30 PM on December 23, 2016
Mod note: Couple comments removed, let's cool it on the whole "tantrum" thing in general and definitely on the back-and-forth stuff spinning off of that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sounds like Trump has been listening to Mike Flynn, probably the most dangerous person in the administration. This is bad.
posted by theodolite at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
But do you apologize to inanimate objects when you bump into them? Because that is the mark of a true Upper Midwesterner or a Canadian
Look, I am in a relationship with a Canadian and a nice British lady and I reflexively apologize more than either of them. Of course I apologize to inanimate objects!
there, there, fridge, sorry I left the door open long enough for you to beep
it's going to be okay
posted by sciatrix at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Look, I am in a relationship with a Canadian and a nice British lady and I reflexively apologize more than either of them. Of course I apologize to inanimate objects!
there, there, fridge, sorry I left the door open long enough for you to beep
it's going to be okay
posted by sciatrix at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
I personally feel a new-to-me level of anger toward Trump based on his inflammatory actions, and I am a deeply nonviolent pacifist. With this insight, I am growing increasingly afraid that a more action/violence-oriented leftie will physically attack Trump and succeed. What will happen?
I'm interested in reading about the political ramifications of Kennedy's assassination so as to be prepared for this on my time. Any recommendations?
posted by samthemander at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm interested in reading about the political ramifications of Kennedy's assassination so as to be prepared for this on my time. Any recommendations?
posted by samthemander at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Telling people who are actually terrified that they're just acting huffy to get attention is straight out the abuser's playbook. I know this because I grew up in an emotionally and physically violent and abusive home, and that's exactly how my abusive mother would describe her children when we were actually upset about being abused.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [53 favorites]
posted by the turtle's teeth at 1:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [53 favorites]
Sounds like Trump has been listening to Mike Flynn, probably the most dangerous person in the administration. This is bad.
Either that, or he's leaking his security briefings, right?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Either that, or he's leaking his security briefings, right?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm so Minnesotan that not only do I apologize to furniture I bump into, but I then go into the next room and, just loud enough to be heard, say "It would be nice if somebody were to apologize back to me."
Well, now you're giving me flashbacks to when I used to come home from school to see the vacuum cleaner lurking innocently in the corner of the living room.
I would always ignore it, brash young lad that I was, but eventually grandma cleared her throat and mentioned that the carpet was a bit dirty. And then there was really no choice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, now you're giving me flashbacks to when I used to come home from school to see the vacuum cleaner lurking innocently in the corner of the living room.
I would always ignore it, brash young lad that I was, but eventually grandma cleared her throat and mentioned that the carpet was a bit dirty. And then there was really no choice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Please don't quote that Paladino shit in the thread, see above.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
That very nice letter from Putin that Trump is so proud of? Almost identical to the card sent to Obama on July 4th.
@mashagessen
Was asked by CNN about "extraordinary" Putin letter. Which in fact repeats Putin's July 4 card to Obama, virtually word4word #Trumpiandrift
posted by chris24 at 1:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
@mashagessen
Was asked by CNN about "extraordinary" Putin letter. Which in fact repeats Putin's July 4 card to Obama, virtually word4word #Trumpiandrift
posted by chris24 at 1:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
I assumed zokni was referring to those people rather than specifically to anyone here, although I do see why their comment hit a bit of a nerve.
Yes. I was referring to the general discourse out in the world. I haven't read many recent election threads here and am not familiar with a number of folks who felt my comment was directed at them.
posted by zokni at 1:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes. I was referring to the general discourse out in the world. I haven't read many recent election threads here and am not familiar with a number of folks who felt my comment was directed at them.
posted by zokni at 1:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
If your sole connection to rust belt people is your in-laws I really don't give a fuck about your patronizing explanations about how we should feel about them.
It's incredibly creepy to noble savage people who ARE RIGHT HERE and can speak for their own communities thank you very much.
posted by winna at 1:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
It's incredibly creepy to noble savage people who ARE RIGHT HERE and can speak for their own communities thank you very much.
posted by winna at 1:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Oh boy, The Beach Boys are considering playing the inauguration — except that Brian Wilson and Al Jardine won't be involved, so I guess that makes it just Mike Love considering being Mike Love.
posted by mubba at 1:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by mubba at 1:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Oh god, that tweet. This is my cold-hollow-sensation-filling-body moment for the day.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
cortex, sincere apologies. i missed that earlier and had zero idea who he is. yikes.
posted by futz at 1:39 PM on December 23, 2016
posted by futz at 1:39 PM on December 23, 2016
I personally feel a new-to-me level of anger toward Trump based on his inflammatory actions, and I am a deeply nonviolent pacifist. With this insight, I am growing increasingly afraid that a more action/violence-oriented leftie will physically attack Trump and succeed. What will happen?
Oh cool I needed another paranoid worry, and now I just had a think on who would benefit from that dark road vs a long drawn-out impeachment that sets their own base against them.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:39 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh cool I needed another paranoid worry, and now I just had a think on who would benefit from that dark road vs a long drawn-out impeachment that sets their own base against them.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:39 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
If your sole connection to rust belt people is your in-laws I really don't give a fuck about your patronizing explanations about how we should feel about them.
It's incredibly creepy to noble savage people who ARE RIGHT HERE and can speak for their own communities thank you very much.
I lived there for seven years and have a lot of connections there still apart from my in-laws but I apologize for the creepy noble savaging if that's how it came across.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:42 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's incredibly creepy to noble savage people who ARE RIGHT HERE and can speak for their own communities thank you very much.
I lived there for seven years and have a lot of connections there still apart from my in-laws but I apologize for the creepy noble savaging if that's how it came across.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:42 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jason, now you're adding to my fears
posted by samthemander at 1:47 PM on December 23, 2016
posted by samthemander at 1:47 PM on December 23, 2016
Atrios has a good one today, how we deserve and should get Nice Things:
...thanks to that glorious bankruptcy bill, once you get into a hole you're probably trapped there. Bipartisany goodness to make David Broder swoon. 74-25 in the Senate, 302-126 in the House. But the Dems are the good guys! Yah, well, not enough of them and not consistently enough. Vote for Dems and the share of them voting for horrible things will shrink slightly!posted by j_curiouser at 1:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
And it isn't complicated. Thinking that it is complicated is the problem. There are better and worse ways to achieve things, and the wonks can fight it out, but the point is to achieve them. And, really, given how small the nice things budget is who cares?
The brownshirts are already rising and they're coming out of the people who love trump, not the people who voted for him for cultural or ignorance-related reasons.
I know this got slapped down pretty quickly, but I really want to reiterate how extremely wrong it is. The people who voted for Trump for cultural or ignorance-related reasons are absolutely the core of groups like Stormfront. The people who love Trump will be the leaders, and the ignorant (you say the people voting for "tax cuts", but in reality they're voting for "don't you dare use my money to help anyone I disagree with" with a side of "and that includes anyone who's brown") will be the foot soldiers. This is how it has always been.
The true believers are scary, and they'll do everything in their power to make the world worse because they get off on it, but the "cultural or ignorance-related reasons" people are the ones who are actually going to be committing most of the violence, physical or otherwise.
posted by IAmUnaware at 1:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
I know this got slapped down pretty quickly, but I really want to reiterate how extremely wrong it is. The people who voted for Trump for cultural or ignorance-related reasons are absolutely the core of groups like Stormfront. The people who love Trump will be the leaders, and the ignorant (you say the people voting for "tax cuts", but in reality they're voting for "don't you dare use my money to help anyone I disagree with" with a side of "and that includes anyone who's brown") will be the foot soldiers. This is how it has always been.
The true believers are scary, and they'll do everything in their power to make the world worse because they get off on it, but the "cultural or ignorance-related reasons" people are the ones who are actually going to be committing most of the violence, physical or otherwise.
posted by IAmUnaware at 1:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
The Mike Love 'Beach Boys' are... yeah, well, everything seems like a metaphor these days.
posted by box at 1:50 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by box at 1:50 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
The true believers are scary, and they'll do everything in their power to make the world worse because they get off on it, but the "cultural or ignorance-related reasons" people are the ones who are actually going to be committing most of the violence, physical or otherwise.
You might be right. If you are right, it's a good ways off from happening in that way. In that scenario my neighbors (who all know me as an liberal Jew from out of state), will cut me off socially, start to threaten me, and eventually commit acts of violence on myself or my property/loved ones. None of that has happened or shows any signs of happening yet. They're all still mostly nice people who did a stupid thing for a variety of reasons. I'll let you know once they start marching down the dirt road wearing the red hat: don't think I'm not watching for it.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
You might be right. If you are right, it's a good ways off from happening in that way. In that scenario my neighbors (who all know me as an liberal Jew from out of state), will cut me off socially, start to threaten me, and eventually commit acts of violence on myself or my property/loved ones. None of that has happened or shows any signs of happening yet. They're all still mostly nice people who did a stupid thing for a variety of reasons. I'll let you know once they start marching down the dirt road wearing the red hat: don't think I'm not watching for it.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
As Rogue One plays,
Star Wars Goes to the Countryside: Star Wars has always been light on politics. But Rogue One is a timely celebration of rebellion from below.
posted by homunculus at 2:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Star Wars Goes to the Countryside: Star Wars has always been light on politics. But Rogue One is a timely celebration of rebellion from below.
posted by homunculus at 2:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
re Atrios:
The other problem, once again, is that states and districts have their own economic interests that clash with the broader national interest, so even Dem senators will vote for a bankruptcy bill because their states have concentrated financial service industries, or corn alcohol subsidies because their state grows corn, or near-perpetual copyright because their state is California. The spiral of perceived insecurity and doubling-down on narrow self-interest is a hard one to arrest.
posted by holgate at 2:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Give people nice things, and make it easy. Provide things that it is generally understood that government should provide. Education, health care, roads, sidewalks, supertrains.I'm not sure how "generally understood" those provisions are in the US. Perhaps there's an online overrepresentation of people who think local government should be paying cops (though not firefighters) and that's it, or that wanting more than $2.35/hr plus tips is communism, but as Noah Smith said, the FYIGM glibertarian fringe has a presence that skews the overall debate.
The other problem, once again, is that states and districts have their own economic interests that clash with the broader national interest, so even Dem senators will vote for a bankruptcy bill because their states have concentrated financial service industries, or corn alcohol subsidies because their state grows corn, or near-perpetual copyright because their state is California. The spiral of perceived insecurity and doubling-down on narrow self-interest is a hard one to arrest.
posted by holgate at 2:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
The US abstained on the UN vote on Israel today, so the Security Council resolution calling for the end of Israeli settlements passed.
This is new/was unexpected, right? What does this mean? Is this another Obama attempt to sideswipe Trump?
posted by corb at 2:21 PM on December 23, 2016
This is new/was unexpected, right? What does this mean? Is this another Obama attempt to sideswipe Trump?
posted by corb at 2:21 PM on December 23, 2016
This is new/was unexpected, right? What does this mean? Is this another Obama attempt to sideswipe Trump?
More like Obama flipping Bibi the bird with both hands on the way out.
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [25 favorites]
More like Obama flipping Bibi the bird with both hands on the way out.
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [25 favorites]
And I'm sure Diamond Joe had something to do with it too.
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also we must, must start making a distinction between Trump voters and vigorous Trump supporters.
I think that's part of how we got here - by giving people a pass for Dubya and the like. A lot of people are under the impression that politics is academic. It's 'over there.' Like, plenty of people who voted for Trump didn't believe it would have any real world consequences for anybody they actually knew and cared about.
It's important that we express to *all* Trump voters that this is their fault. They didn't pay attention, they didn't educate themselves, and they got played. It's not Hillary Clinton's fault for being so darn unlikable*. It's not even entirely the media's fault for being spineless fucking quislings. It's the job of every American to have the slightest clue who their vote is going toward, and it's time we held people to that very loose and generous minimal standard.
Does that mean actually attacking them? Not always. But yeah, it means actually holding them accountable for their decision. It does mean snubbing. It does mean rubbing their noses in them losing their healthcare. It means doing whatever is most effective to make them connect 'life sucks' with 'they personally fucked this up for themselves.'
(* I like Hillary Clinton.)
Unless you're ready to fight a civil war right now then you're going to want to accept the humanity of some of those who either voted for trump or did not vote.
Sorry, that takes two. They're already at 'do not accept our basic humanity' and 'willing to commit horrifying acts of violence because of that.' If it comes to that, it's not on us, it's entirely on them. Anything else is victim blaming.
************
Damn straight! Hillary was badly slandered. A lot of these people who voted for Trump can't even tell you what the Hell they've got against Hillary anyway.
Meanwhile, I am older, I am disabled and there are rumors of things like SNAP benefits being block granted.
I live in HUD housing. What is going to happen to HUD? Suddenly saving up for a good Winter-ready tent doesn't feel like a frivolous purchase.
Seriously, people who did not vote for Trump are going to hurt. People who have No Idea about how to survive a long term crisis, and people who really can't survive a long term crisis due to poor health are going to die.
I'll shame and snub who I please about it. They threw in their lot with him without doing ANY damn research.
I have seen a lot of elections. I remember watching the Kennedy- Nixon debates.
I've watched damn near every Convention since 1960, both parties, and every Innauguaration since 1960.
I've never lived through anything like this.
I won't be watching this one. My TV will be off.
I am so thankful my mother didn't live to see this. She always feared a fascist takeover.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 2:27 PM on December 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
I think that's part of how we got here - by giving people a pass for Dubya and the like. A lot of people are under the impression that politics is academic. It's 'over there.' Like, plenty of people who voted for Trump didn't believe it would have any real world consequences for anybody they actually knew and cared about.
It's important that we express to *all* Trump voters that this is their fault. They didn't pay attention, they didn't educate themselves, and they got played. It's not Hillary Clinton's fault for being so darn unlikable*. It's not even entirely the media's fault for being spineless fucking quislings. It's the job of every American to have the slightest clue who their vote is going toward, and it's time we held people to that very loose and generous minimal standard.
Does that mean actually attacking them? Not always. But yeah, it means actually holding them accountable for their decision. It does mean snubbing. It does mean rubbing their noses in them losing their healthcare. It means doing whatever is most effective to make them connect 'life sucks' with 'they personally fucked this up for themselves.'
(* I like Hillary Clinton.)
Unless you're ready to fight a civil war right now then you're going to want to accept the humanity of some of those who either voted for trump or did not vote.
Sorry, that takes two. They're already at 'do not accept our basic humanity' and 'willing to commit horrifying acts of violence because of that.' If it comes to that, it's not on us, it's entirely on them. Anything else is victim blaming.
************
Damn straight! Hillary was badly slandered. A lot of these people who voted for Trump can't even tell you what the Hell they've got against Hillary anyway.
Meanwhile, I am older, I am disabled and there are rumors of things like SNAP benefits being block granted.
I live in HUD housing. What is going to happen to HUD? Suddenly saving up for a good Winter-ready tent doesn't feel like a frivolous purchase.
Seriously, people who did not vote for Trump are going to hurt. People who have No Idea about how to survive a long term crisis, and people who really can't survive a long term crisis due to poor health are going to die.
I'll shame and snub who I please about it. They threw in their lot with him without doing ANY damn research.
I have seen a lot of elections. I remember watching the Kennedy- Nixon debates.
I've watched damn near every Convention since 1960, both parties, and every Innauguaration since 1960.
I've never lived through anything like this.
I won't be watching this one. My TV will be off.
I am so thankful my mother didn't live to see this. She always feared a fascist takeover.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 2:27 PM on December 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
Hell, it's always been a wet dream of the right to leave the UN altogether, so who knows what the coming trainwreck has in mind.
I think you can get a preview by reading @realDonaldTrump's last three tweets.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think you can get a preview by reading @realDonaldTrump's last three tweets.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hate guns, but am thinking about it, just because I don't want the right-wing thugs to win unopposed.
1) What the fuck is happening?
2) Will Mr. Manly Man gun-shop owner sell me one if I tell him I'm a "lib" who's taking out insurance?
posted by maxwelton at 2:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
1) What the fuck is happening?
2) Will Mr. Manly Man gun-shop owner sell me one if I tell him I'm a "lib" who's taking out insurance?
posted by maxwelton at 2:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why do you have to tell him why you're getting a gun?
posted by asteria at 2:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by asteria at 2:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Will Mr. Manly Man gun-shop owner sell me one if I tell him I'm a "lib" who's taking out insurance?
Probably. But let me know if he doesn't and I will find you a gun shop or a private owner that (legally) will. That offer extends to anyone worried about the MAGAshirts.
posted by corb at 2:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Probably. But let me know if he doesn't and I will find you a gun shop or a private owner that (legally) will. That offer extends to anyone worried about the MAGAshirts.
posted by corb at 2:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
If they ask, just say home defense. It'd be an accurate statement.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Will Mr. Manly Man gun-shop owner sell me one if I tell him I'm a "lib" who's taking out insurance?
Well, gun shops did basically win the right to discriminate against anyone they want to last year, even on grounds that would otherwise violate the Civil Rights Act.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Well, gun shops did basically win the right to discriminate against anyone they want to last year, even on grounds that would otherwise violate the Civil Rights Act.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Give people nice things, and make it easy. Provide things that it is generally understood that government should provide. Education, health care, roads, sidewalks, supertrains.Support for the welfare state among White America started dropping when POC began to benefit from it.
Some people will eschew "nice things" if it means they also won't be given to those deemed undeserving.
posted by Anonymous at 2:39 PM on December 23, 2016
im just gonna practice my genji damage deflection and hope for the best
posted by poffin boffin at 2:43 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 2:43 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
i think atrios' point is that - as lefties - we could come up with a consistent list of nice things. then fight like hell for them. as an alternative to what Democrats typically do, which is aspire to be slightly less horrible than Rs.
posted by j_curiouser at 2:45 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 2:45 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm with all those who say that building bridges and trying to meet halfway is over. How the hell do you meet halfway over bigotry and misogyny anyhow? My efforts are now aimed towards supporting organizations that will combat the negative effects already happening. I will make personal sacrifices of time and money to do that. I no longer have any time for anyone in my personal life who supports Trump. Period.
posted by LilithSilver at 2:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by LilithSilver at 2:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
i think atrios' point is that - as lefties - we could come up with a consistent list of nice things. then fight like hell for them. as an alternative to what Democrats typically do, which is aspire to be slightly less horrible than Rs.
Except if you ask 1000 different lefties what they want you'll get 1000 different answers.
Republicans on the other hand defer to the most powerful person in the room and then run headlong into the abyss if necessary.
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Except if you ask 1000 different lefties what they want you'll get 1000 different answers.
Republicans on the other hand defer to the most powerful person in the room and then run headlong into the abyss if necessary.
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
If I were a Rockette (there is a mental image!) I'd show up and just be way out of sync. Then I would I would flat out insist that I wasn't and that everyone else was including the canned music. Then I would threaten to sue anyone said otherwise. If there were any consequences I would complained that I was fired for being just like the President.
posted by srboisvert at 2:48 PM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:48 PM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
The Katy Perry Left Shark of the inauguration. I like it.
posted by chris24 at 2:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 2:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
On the Israel UN vote, while Israel is upset and Trump trumpy, it's actually just a reconfirmation of US policy since 1967. Every US president since LBJ has been against expanded settlements. The huge freak out is as much a reflection of the current polarized environment as the abstention.
posted by chris24 at 2:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 2:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
We came up with a list of nice things: higher minimum wage, more affordable child care, more affordable college, more affordable health care. That stuff, according to the remnants of a system designed to protect the institution of slavery, lost, and the winners are trying to tear out as much as possible, including longstanding institutions not on that list like Medicare and Social Security.
We have to keep pushing for these things, of course, but we literally just finished an election about all of this and "burn it down" (or perhaps "screw those people") won over "nice things."
posted by zachlipton at 2:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
We have to keep pushing for these things, of course, but we literally just finished an election about all of this and "burn it down" (or perhaps "screw those people") won over "nice things."
posted by zachlipton at 2:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
With regards to building / burning bridges, it's December 23rd. I think a lot of us are proxy fighting to justify the conversations we're going to (not) have this weekend.
The United States has so far spent 240 years coddling racists.
220-ish. However imperfect they were, I feel like the Civil War and Reconstruction ought to get some acknowledgement.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 3:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
The United States has so far spent 240 years coddling racists.
220-ish. However imperfect they were, I feel like the Civil War and Reconstruction ought to get some acknowledgement.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 3:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
My dearest wish is that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir open with the Ugandan villagers' chorus from The Book Of Mormon, replacing the word "God" with "Trump".
The Rockettes' contribution could be to spell out the lyrics with signal flags.
posted by tel3path at 3:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Rockettes' contribution could be to spell out the lyrics with signal flags.
posted by tel3path at 3:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
concur, Talez. maybe we begin with a Top Three. i dunno: healthcare, public schools, labor? I almost think it almost doesn't matter, as long as the Top Three are in almost everyone's Top Fifty. something like, "first, stop digging"?
posted by j_curiouser at 3:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 3:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Food for thought from Ars Technica: Facebook already has a Muslim registry—and it should be deleted "Facebook stands alone in the breadth and depth of personal data it collects."
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
My dearest wish is that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir open with the Ugandan villagers' chorus from The Book Of Mormon, replacing the word "God" with "Trump".
Or, sing "You're Making Things Up Again, Donald"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Or, sing "You're Making Things Up Again, Donald"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I took small hiatus from most media and went lite on places like Metafilter for a couple of weeks in order to regroup a bit and recharge. It's only the past couple of days I've felt I can engage again. And although this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the election with the news that's just come out about Carrie Fisher (not dead but doesn't look good) I seriously don't think I can handle this year anymore. This is the worst fucking year ever.
I think I'm going to say my greetings and hope for the best for all here now no matter what or how one celebrates in case this is it for me for another while at least.
Take care all.
posted by Jalliah at 3:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [32 favorites]
Why "or" when you can "and".
posted by tel3path at 3:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 3:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
just based upon my family, friends, and peripheral acquaintances... many liberals own guns. that is not something i really want to entertain as a possibility, but. that's one thing i'm not worried about.
posted by waitangi at 3:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by waitangi at 3:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
healthcare, public schools, labor
This is a list of topics we're expecting the Left to be able to get uniformly behind concrete proposals for? Um, I wish I shared your optimism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is a list of topics we're expecting the Left to be able to get uniformly behind concrete proposals for? Um, I wish I shared your optimism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
WaPo from 1984 (yeah, yeah irony is dead)...
This morning, Trump has a new idea. He wants to talk about the threat of nuclear war. He wants to talk about how the United States should negotiate with the Soviets.
He wants to be the negotiator.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
This morning, Trump has a new idea. He wants to talk about the threat of nuclear war. He wants to talk about how the United States should negotiate with the Soviets.
He wants to be the negotiator.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, liberals are arming ...
Yes, I recently retreived a few guns that my dad had left to me. My opinions on the desirability of a very lightly armed society haven't changed, but the society I have to live in seems to. "You know what a careful guy I am," I thought to myself as I tossed an old 1911 into my bag.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yes, I recently retreived a few guns that my dad had left to me. My opinions on the desirability of a very lightly armed society haven't changed, but the society I have to live in seems to. "You know what a careful guy I am," I thought to myself as I tossed an old 1911 into my bag.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
A pet peeve of mine: Vlad is not, in fact, short for Vladimir.
TIL that JCPL also stands for Justinian's Current Peevishness Level.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
TIL that JCPL also stands for Justinian's Current Peevishness Level.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:24 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
My dearest wish is that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir open with the Ugandan villagers' chorus from The Book Of Mormon, replacing the word "God" with "Trump".
I'm actually wondering if there will be some subtle "bless your heart"ing with regards to the song choices.
posted by corb at 3:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm actually wondering if there will be some subtle "bless your heart"ing with regards to the song choices.
posted by corb at 3:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hope that every musical act tosses out the setlist and just plays "You Can't Always Get What You Want" over and over until removed from the stage.
posted by contraption at 3:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by contraption at 3:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [29 favorites]
re: optimism...
put 100 options in a survey, give each registered dem 100 pts to allocate however they like. pick the top three. it's a beginning.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
put 100 options in a survey, give each registered dem 100 pts to allocate however they like. pick the top three. it's a beginning.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
oh god, we'll just start arguing about voting systems then
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Mr Trump, we are going to place a trillion dollars in treasuries on the open market. Have a nice rest of your life."
This risk, combined with the temptation to mint the trillion-dollar coin when he can't get his way in congress, makes it worth thinking about what the world is going to look like if the US Dollar loses its reserve currency status in the next few years. Inflation seems like a good bet, even if that doesn't happen.
posted by Coventry at 3:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
This risk, combined with the temptation to mint the trillion-dollar coin when he can't get his way in congress, makes it worth thinking about what the world is going to look like if the US Dollar loses its reserve currency status in the next few years. Inflation seems like a good bet, even if that doesn't happen.
posted by Coventry at 3:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Salon: Sam Brownback urges Donald Trump to replicate his Kansas disaster on a national scale
When recently asked what was the matter with Kansas, Republican Gov. Sam Brownback ignored the steaming pile of economic wreckage that his supply-side experiment has caused in the state, and suggested that President-elect Donald Trump should take the Kansas model nationwide.The Daily Beast: In the Trump World Order, Everybody Bows Down
In an interview with the Wall Street Journal published Friday, America’s least popular governor urged Trump to mimic the massive spending and tax cuts he implemented in Kansas — which have led to growing budget gaps, missed growth projections and two credit downgrades for the state.
Welcome to Trumpworld, where unwilling Rockettes are forced to high kick in short skirts for the president’s pleasure while a creepy band of accused domestic abusers looks on and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings solemn hymns in the background. Over in the VIP tent, a crew of gleaming Wall Street bankers and corporate raiders do Veuve Clicquot toasts to their plans to sell Yellowstone Park to capped-teeth mining magnates while finally freeing themselves from “social insurance and healthcare for the poor.”[...]posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:44 PM on December 23, 2016 [25 favorites]
Let’s not forget the rumpled white nationalist gurgling in the president’s ear about never forgetting Euro-Christian civilization and our white-haired national preacher V.P. tut-tutting working women to embrace motherhood and let the men do the jobbing as his friends in Congress place their birth control on the high shelf. Meanwhile, the First Lady will be silently glimmering on the cover of Women’s Wear Daily, while the president’s wife shuts down Saks Fifth Avenue in New York for a jaunty day of dress shopping, and her lawyers sue “unhelpful” bloggers into the dust.
I'm interested in reading about the political ramifications of Kennedy's assassination so as to be prepared for this on my time. Any recommendations?
samthemander: Page 92 onwards of McNamara's In Retrospect. McNamara was his Secretary of Defense.
posted by Coventry at 3:48 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
samthemander: Page 92 onwards of McNamara's In Retrospect. McNamara was his Secretary of Defense.
posted by Coventry at 3:48 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's what I've gathered from the Trump voters I know.
Some of them are your standard "Obama is a traitor!" Tea Partyites who would vote Republican whoever ran because they hate and distrust liberals that much.
Some of them genuinely hate what they see as government elites on both sides, mixed with contempt for Big Government and people who they think haven't earned what they get. A lot of them have barely concealed racism, usually aimed at Muslims and undocumented immigrants.
Others sincerely think Hillary was incompetent, vastly more corrupt, and more of a warmonger than Trump. There's a lot of mud in the water, and there are a lot of misconceptions floating around her that were stoked for years and years.
Then there are the people who think Trump is a bad candidate, and are willing to admit he said and did bad things, but Hillary was just as corrupt and awful and gross because Project Insight/Lena Dunham/"Both sides do it!".
As for me, I'm growing increasingly frustrated with my friends who are still convinced "SJWs" and liberals are being alarmists and Hillary would have been every bit as bad as Trump had she been elected. I'm fully willing to admit the tumblr model of leftism has serious flaws, but there is no way they are anywhere near as bad as Trump and Friends.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:53 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
Some of them are your standard "Obama is a traitor!" Tea Partyites who would vote Republican whoever ran because they hate and distrust liberals that much.
Some of them genuinely hate what they see as government elites on both sides, mixed with contempt for Big Government and people who they think haven't earned what they get. A lot of them have barely concealed racism, usually aimed at Muslims and undocumented immigrants.
Others sincerely think Hillary was incompetent, vastly more corrupt, and more of a warmonger than Trump. There's a lot of mud in the water, and there are a lot of misconceptions floating around her that were stoked for years and years.
Then there are the people who think Trump is a bad candidate, and are willing to admit he said and did bad things, but Hillary was just as corrupt and awful and gross because Project Insight/Lena Dunham/"Both sides do it!".
As for me, I'm growing increasingly frustrated with my friends who are still convinced "SJWs" and liberals are being alarmists and Hillary would have been every bit as bad as Trump had she been elected. I'm fully willing to admit the tumblr model of leftism has serious flaws, but there is no way they are anywhere near as bad as Trump and Friends.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:53 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
That isn't the same as deciding every single person who voted for trump is shitty so fuck them forever.
Actually every single person who has an income of less than six figures and voted for Trump has proven themselves to be either racist , misogynistic or both.
Or is just plain masochistic.
posted by notreally at 3:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Actually every single person who has an income of less than six figures and voted for Trump has proven themselves to be either racist , misogynistic or both.
Or is just plain masochistic.
posted by notreally at 3:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
This risk, combined with the temptation to mint the trillion-dollar coin when he can't get his way in congress, makes it worth thinking about what the world is going to look like if the US Dollar loses its reserve currency status in the next few years. Inflation seems like a good bet, even if that doesn't happen.
Yep. There's $3.2 trillion in the system since 2008 that's not had a major effect on the US economy because it's been almost entirely used to put an extra zero on the bank balances of the 1%. The US could quickly find itself in massive stagflation without the consistent support of the entire world to absorb these dollars if they flood onto the open market. Trump might convince a few of the more powerful nations that unhitching their horses from the USD wagon might be the most prudent course of action and that should be fucking terrifying.
The US has had an economic free over the past 60 years. Only a fucking idiot would want to rock that boat yet here we are.
posted by Talez at 3:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yep. There's $3.2 trillion in the system since 2008 that's not had a major effect on the US economy because it's been almost entirely used to put an extra zero on the bank balances of the 1%. The US could quickly find itself in massive stagflation without the consistent support of the entire world to absorb these dollars if they flood onto the open market. Trump might convince a few of the more powerful nations that unhitching their horses from the USD wagon might be the most prudent course of action and that should be fucking terrifying.
The US has had an economic free over the past 60 years. Only a fucking idiot would want to rock that boat yet here we are.
posted by Talez at 3:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Others sincerely think Hillary was incompetent, vastly more corrupt, and more of a warmonger than Trump. There's a lot of mud in the water, and there are a lot of misconceptions floating around her that were stoked for years and years.
That's a big chunk of the Trump electorate and one of the the most reachable ones.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's a big chunk of the Trump electorate and one of the the most reachable ones.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, that's unfortunately how things have been going for us on the left, as far as muddied waters go thedarksideofprocyon.
RIGHTSIDEPERSON: You guys lost because you guys suck.
ME: 'Well, there's several inherent structural factor-' (begins textured explaination)
RIGHTSIDEPERSON: cuck.
posted by mrdaneri at 3:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [18 favorites]
RIGHTSIDEPERSON: You guys lost because you guys suck.
ME: 'Well, there's several inherent structural factor-' (begins textured explaination)
RIGHTSIDEPERSON: cuck.
posted by mrdaneri at 3:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [18 favorites]
Nutjobs gonna nut.
@TomCottonAR
Time for complete review of our UN policy, not just funding. Open question whether US should remain member & allow UN to disgrace our soil.
posted by chris24 at 4:05 PM on December 23, 2016
@TomCottonAR
Time for complete review of our UN policy, not just funding. Open question whether US should remain member & allow UN to disgrace our soil.
posted by chris24 at 4:05 PM on December 23, 2016
Nutjobs gonna nut.
It's a good thing this nutjob won't be let anywhere near the levels of pow...
What? He's a sitting US Senator? I'm just going to go shoot myself now.
posted by Talez at 4:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's a good thing this nutjob won't be let anywhere near the levels of pow...
What? He's a sitting US Senator? I'm just going to go shoot myself now.
posted by Talez at 4:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's also not the same as people refusing to make cakes for gay couples either, because they are also a protected class that may not be legally discriminated against by a business.
Come next year, Democrats and progressives have very little say in who's a protected class. The gov't just might require you to bake some MAGA cakes you don't wanna bake, who knows...
The Rockettes thing being journalised as "The union ordered them to perform" seems very off? Am I somehow incorrect in thinking it's more like "The union advised them the contract they signed requires them to perform."?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Come next year, Democrats and progressives have very little say in who's a protected class. The gov't just might require you to bake some MAGA cakes you don't wanna bake, who knows...
The Rockettes thing being journalised as "The union ordered them to perform" seems very off? Am I somehow incorrect in thinking it's more like "The union advised them the contract they signed requires them to perform."?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Don't you know unions are the devil
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The most confusing thing I've seen from my perspective is leftists who defected because of bad encounters with tumblr. I've seen it happen to a friend - she went from a liberal to someone who sincerely thinks leftism has been consumed by authoritarianism and is pro-censorship, anti-male, and anti-white.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:13 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ah, yes, our fine senator from Arkansas, the state #22nd most dependent on Federal tax receipts, for which the people receive a #41 in education, and #49 in healthcare. No doubt the good senator should be focusing his time on twitter outreach campaigns.
posted by mrdaneri at 4:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by mrdaneri at 4:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't know that it's so confusing, speaking as someone who has had enough bad runs with the toxic side of Tumblr that I left it altogether for the sake of my mental health after sustained harassment there left me with a degree of trauma. To a certain kind of person, I can see encountering some of that and having a bad enough emotional reaction to disavow anything associated with "the enemy" (a mindset the space often encouraged when I was there) and completely flip philosophies, especially if they never had a particularly tight personal understanding of why they were a liberal and why their philosophy mattered to start with.
Which is not to say they're remotely right or even that this is a reasonable reaction. But I might be able to understand it.
posted by sciatrix at 4:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Which is not to say they're remotely right or even that this is a reasonable reaction. But I might be able to understand it.
posted by sciatrix at 4:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Since we're delving back into "let's be nice and try to understand Trump supporters" territory, here's a question; where are all the thinkpieces about understanding non-Trump voters?
I could personally connect any journalist who wanted with a bunch of people who voted against Trump, and stand to suffer great losses under Trump's policies. My friend who our entire social circle is convinced is trans, but is only taking very tentative steps toward coming out, in part because being a black trans woman is already hard and will only get harder in the coming administration. My friend the nurse practitioner at Planned Parenthood, who worries both for her patients' safety and her own employment. The very large chunk of my friends and acquaintances who get their health insurance through the ACA exchanges or the state. The gay and trans folks who grew up with religious conservative parents who would not have hesitated to send their kids to conversion therapy.
Ask me or most of these people, and we could speak at length about why we vote how we do. I would love it if more people made a huge effort to understand our political choices. But since we're not white men in rust belt states, no one feels this deep need to understand our psyches and cater policies to us. Funny how that works.
posted by ActionPopulated at 4:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [67 favorites]
I could personally connect any journalist who wanted with a bunch of people who voted against Trump, and stand to suffer great losses under Trump's policies. My friend who our entire social circle is convinced is trans, but is only taking very tentative steps toward coming out, in part because being a black trans woman is already hard and will only get harder in the coming administration. My friend the nurse practitioner at Planned Parenthood, who worries both for her patients' safety and her own employment. The very large chunk of my friends and acquaintances who get their health insurance through the ACA exchanges or the state. The gay and trans folks who grew up with religious conservative parents who would not have hesitated to send their kids to conversion therapy.
Ask me or most of these people, and we could speak at length about why we vote how we do. I would love it if more people made a huge effort to understand our political choices. But since we're not white men in rust belt states, no one feels this deep need to understand our psyches and cater policies to us. Funny how that works.
posted by ActionPopulated at 4:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [67 favorites]
That's a big chunk of the Trump electorate and one of the the most reachable ones.
Possibly the horrible reality of the situation is sinking in for them and they're actually going to want to pull up from this. Or maybe they're going to double the fuck down, adopt Info Wars as their only source of information (like the president!) and get real bitter at the liberals who are clearly undermining what would otherwise have been a successful set of economic and political decisions and in no way the insane blundering of an angry baby surrounded by Nazi advisors.
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Possibly the horrible reality of the situation is sinking in for them and they're actually going to want to pull up from this. Or maybe they're going to double the fuck down, adopt Info Wars as their only source of information (like the president!) and get real bitter at the liberals who are clearly undermining what would otherwise have been a successful set of economic and political decisions and in no way the insane blundering of an angry baby surrounded by Nazi advisors.
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Rockettes thing being journalised as "The union ordered them to perform" seems very off? Am I somehow incorrect in thinking it's more like "The union advised them the contract they signed requires them to perform."?
You're right. The union can protect them (in theory) from stuff that violates their contracts, but that's all. However, the bit where the union implies that they should stop whining and dance is uncalled-for editorializing: "It is a job, and all of you should consider it an honor, no matter who is being sworn in." They don't get to lecture their membership about how they're supposed to feel.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
You're right. The union can protect them (in theory) from stuff that violates their contracts, but that's all. However, the bit where the union implies that they should stop whining and dance is uncalled-for editorializing: "It is a job, and all of you should consider it an honor, no matter who is being sworn in." They don't get to lecture their membership about how they're supposed to feel.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Possibly the horrible reality of the situation is sinking in for them and they're actually going to want to pull up from this. Or maybe they're going to double the fuck down
Probably a mix of both but that still leaves us with a net increase in real allies and I think those are worth fighting for (if one has the stomach for it).
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Probably a mix of both but that still leaves us with a net increase in real allies and I think those are worth fighting for (if one has the stomach for it).
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nothing like the president-elect taking sides with Putin against the opposition party.
@realDonaldTrump
Vladimir Putin said today about Hillary and Dems: "In my opinion, it is humiliating. One must be able to lose with dignity." So true!
posted by chris24 at 4:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
Vladimir Putin said today about Hillary and Dems: "In my opinion, it is humiliating. One must be able to lose with dignity." So true!
posted by chris24 at 4:25 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
One time, I was with a group of Trump supporters I know (all of them older white men) who were complaining about Obamacare.
So I thought that I could help them see things from my point of view, as a recent college student who relies on my parents' insurance under Obamacare and who would suffer if it was taken away. They knew me, so my logic was it would help if they saw a familiar and friendly face who needed healthcare.
They just said they didn't care and didn't think they should have to pay for my health insurance. I had to bite my tongue to keep from calling them all selfish assholes.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
So I thought that I could help them see things from my point of view, as a recent college student who relies on my parents' insurance under Obamacare and who would suffer if it was taken away. They knew me, so my logic was it would help if they saw a familiar and friendly face who needed healthcare.
They just said they didn't care and didn't think they should have to pay for my health insurance. I had to bite my tongue to keep from calling them all selfish assholes.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
Since we're delving back into "let's be nice and try to understand Trump supporters" territory, here's a question; where are all the thinkpieces about understanding non-Trump voters?
This is the same argument I hear about multiculturalism..."Why should we accept or adapt to their cultural practices when we wouldn't be similarly accepted in their countries? Why should we do what they won't?"
I'll leave you to find an answer that satisfies both scenarios.
posted by rocket88 at 4:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is the same argument I hear about multiculturalism..."Why should we accept or adapt to their cultural practices when we wouldn't be similarly accepted in their countries? Why should we do what they won't?"
I'll leave you to find an answer that satisfies both scenarios.
posted by rocket88 at 4:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a list of topics we're expecting the Left to be able to get uniformly behind concrete proposals for?
The Left lined up pretty solidly behind Sanders' proposals, modulo the Greens and the radical Socialists. Yes, I know Clinton made many of the same proposals, but it's not enough to just make them, you have to be a credible advocate for them. It's clear at this point that we shouldn't argue about Clinton's credibility here, or other Sanders/Clinton controversies, but it's also clear that there is a platform the Left can align on.
posted by Coventry at 4:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Left lined up pretty solidly behind Sanders' proposals, modulo the Greens and the radical Socialists. Yes, I know Clinton made many of the same proposals, but it's not enough to just make them, you have to be a credible advocate for them. It's clear at this point that we shouldn't argue about Clinton's credibility here, or other Sanders/Clinton controversies, but it's also clear that there is a platform the Left can align on.
posted by Coventry at 4:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
>But it doesn't matter why people voted for Trump. You know what you were getting.
>Not if you have poor education, few mind-opening early life experiences, and no ability to tell good information from bad.
So you are saying Trump supporters are too ignorant to be responsible for their own decisions? And your complaint is that other people are being disrespectful and condescending to Trump supporters?
posted by JackFlash at 4:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
>Not if you have poor education, few mind-opening early life experiences, and no ability to tell good information from bad.
So you are saying Trump supporters are too ignorant to be responsible for their own decisions? And your complaint is that other people are being disrespectful and condescending to Trump supporters?
posted by JackFlash at 4:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Nothing like the president-elect taking sides with Putin against the opposition party.
You know, I've tried to refrain from making comments about Trump and Putin being part of a snuggle bunny slumber party club together because it's both stupid and too conspiratorial for my liking.
But then he comes out with shit like this and it's like "well if they're not in bed together it'd be a surprise".
posted by Talez at 4:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
You know, I've tried to refrain from making comments about Trump and Putin being part of a snuggle bunny slumber party club together because it's both stupid and too conspiratorial for my liking.
But then he comes out with shit like this and it's like "well if they're not in bed together it'd be a surprise".
posted by Talez at 4:28 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
The Left lined up pretty solidly behind Sanders' proposals, modulo the Greens and the radical Socialists. Yes, I know Clinton made many of the same proposals, but it's not enough to just make them, you have to be a credible advocate for them. It's clear at this point that we shouldn't argue about Clinton's credibility here, or other Sanders/Clinton controversies, but it's also clear that there is a platform the Left can align on.
The Democrats veered hard to the left c/o Bernie and the left just stood there going "it doesn't excite us we're taking our ball and going home".
For the left, some mythical stature is just as important as policy and it's annoying as hell.
posted by Talez at 4:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
The Democrats veered hard to the left c/o Bernie and the left just stood there going "it doesn't excite us we're taking our ball and going home".
For the left, some mythical stature is just as important as policy and it's annoying as hell.
posted by Talez at 4:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
Let me get this straight. If a Putin/Russia operation was succesful, it's illegitemate to call for investigation of it? Because you're a "sore loser"?
posted by thelonius at 4:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 4:30 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
They just said they didn't care and didn't think they should have to pay for my health insurance. I had to bite my tongue to keep from calling them all selfish assholes.
I have found that judiciously pointing out that someone is being a selfish asshole or asking them to extend their reasoning to admitting that they think you should have to try to grit out a toothache by squinting salt water into the sore spot or fix a cut foot by sewing it up yourself as a young person who can't afford health insurance, rather than pay a couple of extra tax dollars.
I am so angry they treated you like that. And they deserved to be told they were being assholes. Sometimes that line of questioning, if you can deliver it with anger and confidence backing it up, shocks dicks like that into thinking about their beliefs.
posted by sciatrix at 4:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
I have found that judiciously pointing out that someone is being a selfish asshole or asking them to extend their reasoning to admitting that they think you should have to try to grit out a toothache by squinting salt water into the sore spot or fix a cut foot by sewing it up yourself as a young person who can't afford health insurance, rather than pay a couple of extra tax dollars.
I am so angry they treated you like that. And they deserved to be told they were being assholes. Sometimes that line of questioning, if you can deliver it with anger and confidence backing it up, shocks dicks like that into thinking about their beliefs.
posted by sciatrix at 4:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [23 favorites]
And your complaint is that other people are being disrespectful and condescending to Trump supporters?
I think it's more disrespectful to call 70-ish million people irredeemable assholes undeserving of any communication than to say that some portion of them were misled by an unparalleled misinformation campaign due to less education and less use of critical thinking.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think it's more disrespectful to call 70-ish million people irredeemable assholes undeserving of any communication than to say that some portion of them were misled by an unparalleled misinformation campaign due to less education and less use of critical thinking.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Democrats veered hard to the left c/o Bernie and the left just stood there going "it doesn't excite us we're taking our ball and going home".
That wasn't the childish reaction you seem to imply. There were excellent historical and ideological reasons to be extremely skeptical of those commitments. (Being vague here to avoid a fight.)
posted by Coventry at 4:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
That wasn't the childish reaction you seem to imply. There were excellent historical and ideological reasons to be extremely skeptical of those commitments. (Being vague here to avoid a fight.)
posted by Coventry at 4:36 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
wait
was that in that extremely bigly letter that Trump received from Putin?
the one that some reporter figured out was a word-for-word repeat of greetings to Obama July 4?
posted by angrycat at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016
was that in that extremely bigly letter that Trump received from Putin?
the one that some reporter figured out was a word-for-word repeat of greetings to Obama July 4?
posted by angrycat at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016
Let me get this straight. If a Putin/Russia operation was succesful, it's illegitemate to call for investigation of it? Because you're a "sore loser"?
Is there news on this front?
posted by Coventry at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016
Is there news on this front?
posted by Coventry at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016
That wasn't the childish reaction you seem to imply. There were excellent historical and ideological reasons to be extremely skeptical of those commitments. (Being vague here to avoid a fight.)
I'm sure there were but there's only two practical choices available so it has the same effect either way.
posted by Talez at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm sure there were but there's only two practical choices available so it has the same effect either way.
posted by Talez at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why should we accept or adapt to their cultural practices when we wouldn't be similarly accepted in their countries?
Is that the best argument they can muster? It sounds completely ignorant of the last 500 years of history, at best. At worst, it's an awful conveniently timed tantrum, since a lot countries (some of which were former colonies), are just beginning to get good at adapting and playing the game that the West set up the rules for.
posted by FJT at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is that the best argument they can muster? It sounds completely ignorant of the last 500 years of history, at best. At worst, it's an awful conveniently timed tantrum, since a lot countries (some of which were former colonies), are just beginning to get good at adapting and playing the game that the West set up the rules for.
posted by FJT at 4:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is there news on this front?
Putin's yearly press conference and Trump's tweet, only
posted by thelonius at 4:40 PM on December 23, 2016
Putin's yearly press conference and Trump's tweet, only
posted by thelonius at 4:40 PM on December 23, 2016
(Being vague here to avoid a fight.)
As a veteran of mefi election threads (remember those salad days when Nate said Trump could never get the nomination?) I assure you that there's no way to avoid this particular fight besides not bringing it up at all.
posted by dis_integration at 4:44 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
As a veteran of mefi election threads (remember those salad days when Nate said Trump could never get the nomination?) I assure you that there's no way to avoid this particular fight besides not bringing it up at all.
posted by dis_integration at 4:44 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Are we going to accomplish anything by having the 50,000th round of this particular fight?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
all right, I'll say it: Elton John won't even play at your inauguration, nyah nyah, boo boo!
posted by mannequito at 4:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by mannequito at 4:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think the right has managed to stoke a great deal of the both-sidesism. They have a lot more to gain if people distrust the government and what they're told by the news, and the Democrats are thought of as the party of Big Government.
(I meant to ask, what is Project Insight, anyway? I've heard about it from conservative friends on social media, but don't know the details and don't want to give them the pageviews.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
(I meant to ask, what is Project Insight, anyway? I've heard about it from conservative friends on social media, but don't know the details and don't want to give them the pageviews.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Inroads, shminroads. We Mefites grump at people for not reading all the comments in a thread before writing their own. The principle is that you should take in and assimilate existing information from the conversation before chiming in.
In this case, there's lots of documentation that we have had this fight umpty-ump times, and having it yet again is both fruitless and aggravating. We get it, we who are angry at Trumpsters are whining and all we need to do is try a little tenderness. Duly noted. Let's move on.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
In this case, there's lots of documentation that we have had this fight umpty-ump times, and having it yet again is both fruitless and aggravating. We get it, we who are angry at Trumpsters are whining and all we need to do is try a little tenderness. Duly noted. Let's move on.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Primary discussions are really really unproductive at this point. Please let that topic drop. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:07 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Jesus, this is the first thing I've read since the election that actually sent a chill up my spine: A Trump Christmas Carol (Alexandra Petri, WaPo)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
You're a mean one, Mr. Trump.
You really are a heel,
You're as cuddly as a cactus, you're as charming as an eel, Mr. Trump,
You're a bad banana with a greasy orange peel!
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
You really are a heel,
You're as cuddly as a cactus, you're as charming as an eel, Mr. Trump,
You're a bad banana with a greasy orange peel!
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
On the other hand, this is the sort of staple beanplating that keeps me coming back to metafilter. Although, I am sure to only use metafilter intermittently, and then, only at the direction of a licensed healthcare professional.
posted by mrdaneri at 5:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mrdaneri at 5:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
This, in a nutshell, is why Democrats lost. We're sitting here in echo chambers fucking whining instead of making inroads with people who disagree with us.
Hey, don't let me keep you here if you have more important business elsewhere organizing the masses.
Anyway, Clinton lost the election for many reasons, some of which she stands to blame, some of which she doesn't. But I can assure you that people venting on an internet forum had absolutely fuck-all to do with it.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [24 favorites]
Hey, don't let me keep you here if you have more important business elsewhere organizing the masses.
Anyway, Clinton lost the election for many reasons, some of which she stands to blame, some of which she doesn't. But I can assure you that people venting on an internet forum had absolutely fuck-all to do with it.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [24 favorites]
I hope that every musical act tosses out the setlist and just plays "You Can't Always Get What You Want" over and over until removed from the stage.
posted by contraption at 3:31 PM on December 23
[8 favorites +] [!]
That's hysterical because a very anthemy version of that song was played at the convention repeatedly.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 5:22 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by contraption at 3:31 PM on December 23
[8 favorites +] [!]
That's hysterical because a very anthemy version of that song was played at the convention repeatedly.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 5:22 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cracked is kind of killing it lately. "And that's why blaming Trump's victory on "out-of-touch Democrats and Republicans not reaching out to the working class" is like blaming your roommate for letting you stick your tit in a blender. The working class and rural America should fucking know better than to vote for Trump. But just as the media failed us, so too did mainstream politics cause people to roll the dice on this shuffling troll burger. And while I totally get that he is supposed to be an "outsider" bringing "change" the same way Obama did eight years ago ... Obama was still qualified for the damn job. He was a political science major specializing in international relations who went on to be an honor student at Harvard Law. He was a freaking senator. So I don't care how shitty mainstream politics are; rejecting "experts" and "elitists" (even if it's Ted Cruz and Hillary Clinton) for an inexperienced corporate demagogue is like the sheep hiring a drunk hyena to stave off the wolves. It's like having Russell Crowe host a meditative wellness seminar.
This is why the worst thing that conservative and liberal experts can do is blame themselves for not reaching out. If a meteorologist tells you it's going to rain exploding turds, they shouldn't be blamed when soon-to-be-shit-covered people rally against "weather elitists who aren't always 100 percent accurate.""
[Link]
posted by supercrayon at 5:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
This is why the worst thing that conservative and liberal experts can do is blame themselves for not reaching out. If a meteorologist tells you it's going to rain exploding turds, they shouldn't be blamed when soon-to-be-shit-covered people rally against "weather elitists who aren't always 100 percent accurate.""
[Link]
posted by supercrayon at 5:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
Food for thought from Ars Technica: Facebook already has a Muslim registry—and it should be deleted.
Oh, it's worse than that. The phone companies (and by extension the NSA) can do a very simple query: for each mosque at location M, return all users who stopped at location M for more than 30 minutes.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Oh, it's worse than that. The phone companies (and by extension the NSA) can do a very simple query: for each mosque at location M, return all users who stopped at location M for more than 30 minutes.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
The WaPo Christmas Carol parody is chilling, yes, but this part made me laugh out loud:
“What do you want with me?” Trump asked. “Nice chain, by the way.”
Cohn merely scowled in answer. “You have a chain of your own, Donald,” he said. “You have forged it link by link. It is even longer and heavier than mine.”
Trump beamed.
“That’s bad,” Cohn whispered.
“Oh,” Trump said.
posted by bibliowench at 5:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
“What do you want with me?” Trump asked. “Nice chain, by the way.”
Cohn merely scowled in answer. “You have a chain of your own, Donald,” he said. “You have forged it link by link. It is even longer and heavier than mine.”
Trump beamed.
“That’s bad,” Cohn whispered.
“Oh,” Trump said.
posted by bibliowench at 5:23 PM on December 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
Rust Moranis: I think it's more disrespectful to call 70-ish million people irredeemable assholes undeserving of any communication than to say that some portion of them were misled by an unparalleled misinformation campaign due to less education and less use of critical thinking.
I couldn't give one actual fuck about disrespecting Trump voters at this point, no matter their reasons or lack of reasons for voting for him. None of them deserve my respect for anything. Respect is earned. I hope they suffer for it every single day of his administration, and I don't give a shit who knows it. We don't have the time or the numbers to sit down and have a nice chat with every "possibly reachable" Trump voter; advocating that is like advocating spitting in the sea to make it less salty.
Everyone except rich white Christians are about to suffer, and suffer badly. I fervently and unrepentanty hope that the people who voted for Trump, no matter their reasons or level of education or sources of information, suffer more. I hope they choke on it every day.
posted by tzikeh at 5:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [45 favorites]
I couldn't give one actual fuck about disrespecting Trump voters at this point, no matter their reasons or lack of reasons for voting for him. None of them deserve my respect for anything. Respect is earned. I hope they suffer for it every single day of his administration, and I don't give a shit who knows it. We don't have the time or the numbers to sit down and have a nice chat with every "possibly reachable" Trump voter; advocating that is like advocating spitting in the sea to make it less salty.
Everyone except rich white Christians are about to suffer, and suffer badly. I fervently and unrepentanty hope that the people who voted for Trump, no matter their reasons or level of education or sources of information, suffer more. I hope they choke on it every day.
posted by tzikeh at 5:26 PM on December 23, 2016 [45 favorites]
This, in a nutshell, is why Democrats lost.
Democrats lost the White House because it turns out that enough anglos are grade-a dirtbags who wouldn't turn out for normal Republicans like Romney but were excited to vote for a flaming bag of dogshit that was overtly racist enough.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [52 favorites]
Democrats lost the White House because it turns out that enough anglos are grade-a dirtbags who wouldn't turn out for normal Republicans like Romney but were excited to vote for a flaming bag of dogshit that was overtly racist enough.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [52 favorites]
But Tom Hanks running for President as a Democrat in 2020 probably is a winning strategy -- universally beloved celebrity beats continuum-between-hated-and-sort-of-admired celebrity.
Can he please do it in character as "David S. Pumpkins"?
posted by mmoncur at 5:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Can he please do it in character as "David S. Pumpkins"?
posted by mmoncur at 5:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
You could argue that a lot of that is a Bernie effect or leftists.
You could. It seems hard to nail down either way with the information I've been able to find, though.
posted by Coventry at 5:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
You could. It seems hard to nail down either way with the information I've been able to find, though.
posted by Coventry at 5:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
So I have a finite amount of compassion/energy in me. I am choosing to spend it on the people who will suffer the most under Trump, and that's not clueless white people--although they will suffer too--it's people of color, LGBTQ, immigrants and so on. They suffer first, so they get the bulk of whatever time/attention/compassion I have to spare. Then come organizations working hard to preserve any scrap of democracy or justice, on the principle that this will help the most people.
After that, if I happen to be in the place to have a dialogue with a Trump voter who is thinking maybe they made a mistake, sure.
What putting it this way points out for me is how much calls for compassion are really calls for the status quo; the hurts, needs, and cares of conservative white people must remain a priority, even when they are the ones who cause the problem. We are still expected to put them first.
And I'm not. I'm not kicking anybody in the face who isn't attacking me, you understand, but I'm not going out of my way to fuss over suffering Trump voters.
posted by emjaybee at 5:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [48 favorites]
After that, if I happen to be in the place to have a dialogue with a Trump voter who is thinking maybe they made a mistake, sure.
What putting it this way points out for me is how much calls for compassion are really calls for the status quo; the hurts, needs, and cares of conservative white people must remain a priority, even when they are the ones who cause the problem. We are still expected to put them first.
And I'm not. I'm not kicking anybody in the face who isn't attacking me, you understand, but I'm not going out of my way to fuss over suffering Trump voters.
posted by emjaybee at 5:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [48 favorites]
On the subject of dealing with pro-Trump people in our lives, I'm starting to give serious thought about what to do with my conservative friends on social media.
I don't plan to stop being political online any time soon and I'm in a place in my life where I don't need both-sidesism and pro-Republican stuff on my dash. I get enough of it in real life and in bad circumstances that I can't avoid. So I'm considering unfriending/unfollowing them, under the logic that a falling out will happen later and probably in an even uglier way.
But at the same time I can never bring myself to hit the block or unfollow button, because these people have been there for me in bad times and know very personal things about me. And they would probably tell me that I'm being a coward or immature for not being able to deal with opposing views on my dash. And the worst part is, I'm not completely sure they're wrong.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't plan to stop being political online any time soon and I'm in a place in my life where I don't need both-sidesism and pro-Republican stuff on my dash. I get enough of it in real life and in bad circumstances that I can't avoid. So I'm considering unfriending/unfollowing them, under the logic that a falling out will happen later and probably in an even uglier way.
But at the same time I can never bring myself to hit the block or unfollow button, because these people have been there for me in bad times and know very personal things about me. And they would probably tell me that I'm being a coward or immature for not being able to deal with opposing views on my dash. And the worst part is, I'm not completely sure they're wrong.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
I strongly oppose actively wishing for anyone to suffer hunger, health issues or homelessness based on a carelessly-cast vote that they may soon consider a mistake.
I understand the impulse, but I just can't.
posted by samthemander at 5:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
I understand the impulse, but I just can't.
posted by samthemander at 5:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
And yeah, I'm not offering pity, just not going to wish Bad Things on other people.
posted by samthemander at 5:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by samthemander at 5:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can he please do it in character as "David S. Pumpkins"?
I'm sorry, but if we're going to run a Hollywood actor in character I'm going to have to insist that it be Terry Crews as Camacho.
posted by contraption at 5:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm sorry, but if we're going to run a Hollywood actor in character I'm going to have to insist that it be Terry Crews as Camacho.
posted by contraption at 5:41 PM on December 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
This, in a nutshell, is why Democrats lost. We're sitting here in echo chambers fucking whining instead of making inroads with people who disagree with us.
First of all, "sitting here in echo chambers fucking whining" is the primary occupation of almost all of the Right, who you're claiming "won", so it turns out to be a winning strategy according to your own logic. Maybe think for two seconds before taking potshots at the people who aren't actively doing evil and make sure your argument is at least internally logically consistent.
Second, the reason, in a nutshell, that the Democrats "lost" is that there wasn't an election. The reason that the Republican party is so dead set against any recounts occurring is that a lot of the Trump ballots actually physically don't exist, as we found out here in Michigan when we started our recount (before it got illegitimately shut down). We outnumber the Republicans badly enough that they couldn't win the election and they knew it, so they just routed around the problem.
The fact that Trump wasn't actually elected, of course, does not mean that the people who DID vote for him are any less of a problem, and even though there are a lot fewer of them than there are of us, there are still a lot of them by any objective measure. They're going to try to burn the country down with themselves inside because that's how much they want to watch us suffer. Yeah, it would be great to help those people understand why it's not a good idea to burn the country down. That would be ideal. But if we can't figure out how to do that, and for the record it is looking like they are VERY resistant to it, we still have to stop them.
posted by IAmUnaware at 5:42 PM on December 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
First of all, "sitting here in echo chambers fucking whining" is the primary occupation of almost all of the Right, who you're claiming "won", so it turns out to be a winning strategy according to your own logic. Maybe think for two seconds before taking potshots at the people who aren't actively doing evil and make sure your argument is at least internally logically consistent.
Second, the reason, in a nutshell, that the Democrats "lost" is that there wasn't an election. The reason that the Republican party is so dead set against any recounts occurring is that a lot of the Trump ballots actually physically don't exist, as we found out here in Michigan when we started our recount (before it got illegitimately shut down). We outnumber the Republicans badly enough that they couldn't win the election and they knew it, so they just routed around the problem.
The fact that Trump wasn't actually elected, of course, does not mean that the people who DID vote for him are any less of a problem, and even though there are a lot fewer of them than there are of us, there are still a lot of them by any objective measure. They're going to try to burn the country down with themselves inside because that's how much they want to watch us suffer. Yeah, it would be great to help those people understand why it's not a good idea to burn the country down. That would be ideal. But if we can't figure out how to do that, and for the record it is looking like they are VERY resistant to it, we still have to stop them.
posted by IAmUnaware at 5:42 PM on December 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
I'm not kicking anybody in the face who isn't attacking me, you understand, but I'm not going out of my way to fuss over suffering Trump voters.
But if you don't go out of your way to comfort them, they WILL attack. That's centuries of accumulated White and/or Male Privilege in action.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:44 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
But if you don't go out of your way to comfort them, they WILL attack. That's centuries of accumulated White and/or Male Privilege in action.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:44 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Terry Crews as Camacho is looking less as less like 'throwaway Internet Comedy' and 'Viable 2020 DNC Gold' in my book. Find the right 'other half' of that ticket, and I smell a landslide.
posted by mrdaneri at 5:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by mrdaneri at 5:49 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are a few positive and constructive things that can be done in response to Trump's victory and upcoming regime.
For one, people who are able must help those who will be hurt worst by these policies. Mitigate the damage by acting at the grass roots level however you can.
Second, organize targeted campaigns to convince Republican Congress critters that supporting Trump is a career limiting move. His approval rate is the lowest of any incoming president and it will only get lower. Work on this to make impeachment more likely.
Third, boycott all businesses that support him. We know who they are, and your spending dollar is the most powerful tool you have.
Lastly, start working on the next election. 2018 might not have much chance of changing anything at the national level, but 2020 will. The time to start planning strategy is now.
Notice that nowhere on this list is shaming, punishing, or hating people who voted for Trump. Whether they support him wholeheartedly or just fell for his lies about bringing jobs and prosperity back, attacking them, disparaging them, and treating them like your arch enemy doesn't help anybody. It doesn't lessen the impact of a Trump presidency and it doesn't prevent more like him. It doesn't help. It just makes you feel...I'm not sure...Better? I honestly don't know because I don't feel it. I just know it doesn't help anything real. And we need all the real help we can muster right now.
posted by rocket88 at 5:50 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
For one, people who are able must help those who will be hurt worst by these policies. Mitigate the damage by acting at the grass roots level however you can.
Second, organize targeted campaigns to convince Republican Congress critters that supporting Trump is a career limiting move. His approval rate is the lowest of any incoming president and it will only get lower. Work on this to make impeachment more likely.
Third, boycott all businesses that support him. We know who they are, and your spending dollar is the most powerful tool you have.
Lastly, start working on the next election. 2018 might not have much chance of changing anything at the national level, but 2020 will. The time to start planning strategy is now.
Notice that nowhere on this list is shaming, punishing, or hating people who voted for Trump. Whether they support him wholeheartedly or just fell for his lies about bringing jobs and prosperity back, attacking them, disparaging them, and treating them like your arch enemy doesn't help anybody. It doesn't lessen the impact of a Trump presidency and it doesn't prevent more like him. It doesn't help. It just makes you feel...I'm not sure...Better? I honestly don't know because I don't feel it. I just know it doesn't help anything real. And we need all the real help we can muster right now.
posted by rocket88 at 5:50 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
WaP from Dec 14: Democratic senators press Trump’s education pick Betsy DeVos to pay years-old $5.3 million fine
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [24 favorites]
A group of Senate Democrats is urging President-elect Donald Trump’s nominee for education secretary, Betsy DeVos, to pay $5.3 million in fines imposed on her political action committee for campaign finance violations in Ohio eight years ago.I don't remember hearing about this even though the article is from a week ago. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me-- I don't think you should be able to work for the government if you have an outstanding fine you have ignored. Her defense is that the fine was levied against her PAC and the PAC shut down.
“As secretary of education, Betsy DeVos would be responsible for overseeing the nation’s student loan program, including ensuring that students repay their loans, so it’s troubling that she has blatantly ignored her own PAC’s debt to the people of Ohio,” said Sen. Tom Udall (D-N.M.). “When a student borrower defaults, it has serious ramifications that haunt that student for years — yet when DeVos’s PAC defaulted on its fine for violating the law, they just walked away.”
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:51 PM on December 23, 2016 [24 favorites]
Part of the problem with the enemy being a businessman surrounding himself with a regular Legion of Doom full of other businessmen is that some of their businesses are near-omnipresent.
For example, I can't drive my own car, so I have no choice but to use Uber to travel around my town, whose CEO is advising Trump. And PayPal, run by Peter "Human Vampire" Thiel, is near-unavoidable - I had to use it just to join MF. And as a rule all the big oil companies are pretty sleazy.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
For example, I can't drive my own car, so I have no choice but to use Uber to travel around my town, whose CEO is advising Trump. And PayPal, run by Peter "Human Vampire" Thiel, is near-unavoidable - I had to use it just to join MF. And as a rule all the big oil companies are pretty sleazy.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Carrie Fisher is stable, just checked. You can't have her, 2016!
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [40 favorites]
But the VAST majority of people who voted for Donald Trump did so for the same reason(s) they voted for Mitt Romney, John McCain, George Bush, etc., and would have voted for Ted Cruz or John Kasich if they were on the ballot instead: one or more of lower taxes, lower regulations, Second Amendment, tougher on crime/terrorism, flyover-vs-coastal-elites, pro-life judges, Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays, etc.
You are undermining your own argument by saying these people are the unredeemables who will always vote Republican for always shitty reasons. So why should lefties waste their time on them. As you say, they are unredeemable. And as Max Planck said, they will only be won over one funeral at a time.
Better to work on convincing people who are amenable to persuasion and without the permanently locked in prejudices such as millennials and stay-home Democrats.
posted by JackFlash at 6:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
You are undermining your own argument by saying these people are the unredeemables who will always vote Republican for always shitty reasons. So why should lefties waste their time on them. As you say, they are unredeemable. And as Max Planck said, they will only be won over one funeral at a time.
Better to work on convincing people who are amenable to persuasion and without the permanently locked in prejudices such as millennials and stay-home Democrats.
posted by JackFlash at 6:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't plan to stop being political online any time soon and I'm in a place in my life where I don't need both-sidesism and pro-Republican stuff on my dash. I get enough of it in real life and in bad circumstances that I can't avoid. So I'm considering unfriending/unfollowing them, under the logic that a falling out will happen later and probably in an even uglier way.
But at the same time I can never bring myself to hit the block or unfollow button, because these people have been there for me in bad times and know very personal things about me. And they would probably tell me that I'm being a coward or immature for not being able to deal with opposing views on my dash. And the worst part is, I'm not completely sure they're wrong.
I also have conservative friends who voted for Trump on my FB feed, and aside from politics, we get along great.
I set down the following 'house rules' on my FB wall, where 99.9% of my posts are FLocked:
1. I am personally anti-Trump, and I post a lot of anti-Trump material. If you, Conservative Person, get offended by it, it's your responsibility to unfollow/unfriend me, not bully me into posting less politics.
2. Because of 1, my wall is not a place to defend Trump. You have your own wall to do that on.
3. Because of 1 and 2, my wall is not a place to play 'debate'. My politics are mine, and are not up for discussion, debate, or devil's advocacy. So, please do not try to do these on my wall. Since the vast majority know that my politics flow from Leftism to outright Anarchism, they see this as the losing proposition that it is, and don't bother. The ones that don't heed this warning, depending on the amount of caffeine I've consumed and/or the content posted, get either a stern talking-to, or, ah, more harsh words.
4. On the flip side, I will not discuss politics on their walls, unless explicitly invited to, especially on their FLocked posts.
This leads to a bit of peace around on FB.
posted by spinifex23 at 6:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
But at the same time I can never bring myself to hit the block or unfollow button, because these people have been there for me in bad times and know very personal things about me. And they would probably tell me that I'm being a coward or immature for not being able to deal with opposing views on my dash. And the worst part is, I'm not completely sure they're wrong.
I also have conservative friends who voted for Trump on my FB feed, and aside from politics, we get along great.
I set down the following 'house rules' on my FB wall, where 99.9% of my posts are FLocked:
1. I am personally anti-Trump, and I post a lot of anti-Trump material. If you, Conservative Person, get offended by it, it's your responsibility to unfollow/unfriend me, not bully me into posting less politics.
2. Because of 1, my wall is not a place to defend Trump. You have your own wall to do that on.
3. Because of 1 and 2, my wall is not a place to play 'debate'. My politics are mine, and are not up for discussion, debate, or devil's advocacy. So, please do not try to do these on my wall. Since the vast majority know that my politics flow from Leftism to outright Anarchism, they see this as the losing proposition that it is, and don't bother. The ones that don't heed this warning, depending on the amount of caffeine I've consumed and/or the content posted, get either a stern talking-to, or, ah, more harsh words.
4. On the flip side, I will not discuss politics on their walls, unless explicitly invited to, especially on their FLocked posts.
This leads to a bit of peace around on FB.
posted by spinifex23 at 6:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
The Dems lost because the VRA was gutted/too many Republican governors, because Americans are stupid and think change is in and of itself a virtue and because of the combined efforts of Comey and Putin.
Those are the main three and of that the first we can change, the third probably won't happen again, but the second we just have to live with.
posted by asteria at 6:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Those are the main three and of that the first we can change, the third probably won't happen again, but the second we just have to live with.
posted by asteria at 6:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Trump: Putin says I'm a catch. [Fake?]
posted by drezdn at 6:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by drezdn at 6:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
But if you don't go out of your way to comfort them, they WILL attack. That's centuries of accumulated White and/or Male Privilege in action.
No, that's what abusers say. "I wouldn't have to hit you if you didn't make me so mad." But we should all know better by now that abusers abuse because they want to, not because of anything their victims do.
It is not the responsibility of the victim to reform or persuade their abusers. It is not the responsibility of the oppressed to pander to their oppressors.
And appeasement doesn't work. It just tells them you'll lie down to their abuse and encourages them to step it up. It has been tried. It has failed.
Look, I'm in a fairly privileged position; I don't rely on my racist relatives to support me, my workplace is fairly egalitarian, and I'm white; I'm not the most vulnerable. And that means I must resist, because there are many others that can't. That have to pander or stay in the closet just to survive.
If people like me aren't brave enough to call out our racist sexist fellow citizens, who will?
posted by emjaybee at 6:11 PM on December 23, 2016 [43 favorites]
No, that's what abusers say. "I wouldn't have to hit you if you didn't make me so mad." But we should all know better by now that abusers abuse because they want to, not because of anything their victims do.
It is not the responsibility of the victim to reform or persuade their abusers. It is not the responsibility of the oppressed to pander to their oppressors.
And appeasement doesn't work. It just tells them you'll lie down to their abuse and encourages them to step it up. It has been tried. It has failed.
Look, I'm in a fairly privileged position; I don't rely on my racist relatives to support me, my workplace is fairly egalitarian, and I'm white; I'm not the most vulnerable. And that means I must resist, because there are many others that can't. That have to pander or stay in the closet just to survive.
If people like me aren't brave enough to call out our racist sexist fellow citizens, who will?
posted by emjaybee at 6:11 PM on December 23, 2016 [43 favorites]
This set of tweets about bullies seems timely. (There's a transcript below the images.)
posted by XtinaS at 6:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 6:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
'Hatred never ceases by hatred, but by love alone is healed. This is an ancient and eternal law'
(SEE ALSO: 'How come when I confronted that dude on his racist, bigoted behavior he just got more and more upset?)
posted by mrdaneri at 6:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
(SEE ALSO: 'How come when I confronted that dude on his racist, bigoted behavior he just got more and more upset?)
posted by mrdaneri at 6:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think, maybe, there's a bit of miscommunication in the whole "bridge building" thing or at least multiple sides to it? Because to me, what it means is not to coddle every bigoted dipshit but to (and even I'm getting sick of myself beating this drum and I'll try to keep it in check...) look to fusion politics models that don't require compromising progressive values, the good guys got that right during Reconstruction and again during the 60s and they're getting it right today. There's a lot of fight left to go in NC and yeah, they didn't stop Trump from winning the state, but there's a realistic and reachable goal to build a state government that can unfuck the gerrymandering and voter suppression, oppose Trump and Ryan and McConnell policies that hurt people in the state, and build a state level Democratic bench... and a hell of a lot of it is built on effective outreach and bridge building to Republican voters, by sidestepping the party lines and going back to basic principles and morals, and showing Southern Strategy tactics as a scam. This isn't incompatible or even dissimilar to the kind of work Keith Ellison wants to do, or the kind of work that the Save Kansas Coalition did, or what Bernie did (inelegantly spoken as he is about social issues sometimes...), or what Elizabeth Warren does, or what Jason Kander did, and groups expressly pushing for social justice are at the heart of it, and it doesn't require treating Trump voters with kid gloves or ditching your principles (drawing a real hard line on progressive principles is a big important part of this), but it is bridge building with the reachable voters. And our anger absolutely does not need to be toned down to do it, in fact it all seems a little insincere if you're advocating for this kind of thing and not pissed off. So yeah, I think there might be some misunderstanding here, maybe along the divide of like, advocating a movement-based approach vs asking people as individuals to be doormats for Trump voters... because yeah, fuck the latter.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 6:17 PM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
And as Max Planck said, they will only be won over one funeral at a time.
As nice as it is to think that everyone's racist aunt/uncle/grandpa/grandma is going to die any day now I find it really frightening to ignore the fact that the new wave of horrible racist bile is being groomed right now. It's been on the fringes for years and has, for a long time, thoroughly infested reddit. Gamergate, The Red Pill, PUA, most recently with The_Donald.
Like, honestly this new wave terrifies me. Their most ingrained belief, whether they'll admit it or not, is that empathy is the ultimate sign of weakness. You show it and they'll play along just to slide the knife in as close as they possibly can.
It's like, can you build a bridge to them? Do you have to burn down all of theirs down because invariably they'll send a fluffy sweater filled with razor blades? Or is this simply how it's always been, just in a new set of paint?
posted by Neronomius at 6:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [46 favorites]
As nice as it is to think that everyone's racist aunt/uncle/grandpa/grandma is going to die any day now I find it really frightening to ignore the fact that the new wave of horrible racist bile is being groomed right now. It's been on the fringes for years and has, for a long time, thoroughly infested reddit. Gamergate, The Red Pill, PUA, most recently with The_Donald.
Like, honestly this new wave terrifies me. Their most ingrained belief, whether they'll admit it or not, is that empathy is the ultimate sign of weakness. You show it and they'll play along just to slide the knife in as close as they possibly can.
It's like, can you build a bridge to them? Do you have to burn down all of theirs down because invariably they'll send a fluffy sweater filled with razor blades? Or is this simply how it's always been, just in a new set of paint?
posted by Neronomius at 6:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [46 favorites]
The reason that the Republican party is so dead set against any recounts occurring is that a lot of the Trump ballots actually physically don't exist, as we found out here in Michigan when we started our recount
Äre voter rolls public in MI? If so, is there an effort underway to verify this theory against the voter records? And does it need help?
posted by Coventry at 6:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Äre voter rolls public in MI? If so, is there an effort underway to verify this theory against the voter records? And does it need help?
posted by Coventry at 6:21 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I find it really frightening to ignore the fact that the new wave of horrible racist bile is being groomed right now. It's been on the fringes for years and has, for a long time, thoroughly infested reddit. Gamergate, The Red Pill, PUA, most recently with The_Donald.
That's one of the things which scares me about white nationalism/Neo-Nazism on a demographic level, that a lot of its recruits are young and incredibly vicious.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
That's one of the things which scares me about white nationalism/Neo-Nazism on a demographic level, that a lot of its recruits are young and incredibly vicious.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
I also have conservative friends who voted for Trump on my FB feed, and aside from politics, we get along great
With all due respect... when so many people's basic human rights are on the line, is getting along on Facebook really the top priority?
posted by the turtle's teeth at 6:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
With all due respect... when so many people's basic human rights are on the line, is getting along on Facebook really the top priority?
posted by the turtle's teeth at 6:34 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
And our anger absolutely does not need to be toned down to do it, in fact it all seems a little insincere if you're advocating for this kind of thing and not pissed off.
This is super important. I've mentioned it before, and it bears repetition: we like to frame arguments in a way that makes sense to *us*. We like to break out a spreadsheet or a policy brief or statistics.
Well, a lot of people base their decisions on emotional appeals, not that. If you're talking to these people, it's important to meet them in a place they understand. *Show* your emotions. Let them see you're sincere.
I know at least some of the subcultures that went Trump. My extended family has a lot of rednecks, all really fucking happy about our impending doom. I'm not ready to talk to them about this yet, but when I do, I'm going to keep it to how I feel, not numbers, because it's what they *trust*. It's not because they're stupid. My brother in law's a civil engineer. He may be better at math than I am. It's just not how they come to conclusions about what to do - feelings and sincerity are king.
On a... I'm no longer shaking with rage and can address this stuff note:
It doesn't help. It just makes you feel...I'm not sure...Better? I honestly don't know because I don't feel it. I just know it doesn't help anything real. And we need all the real help we can muster right now.
Being angry, even hating people is a natural reaction to being attacked. It isn't your place to tell people how they should grieve or otherwise cope with what's coming. It is, in fact, incredibly disrespectful to engage in that. So, you know, don't.
posted by mordax at 6:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
This is super important. I've mentioned it before, and it bears repetition: we like to frame arguments in a way that makes sense to *us*. We like to break out a spreadsheet or a policy brief or statistics.
Well, a lot of people base their decisions on emotional appeals, not that. If you're talking to these people, it's important to meet them in a place they understand. *Show* your emotions. Let them see you're sincere.
I know at least some of the subcultures that went Trump. My extended family has a lot of rednecks, all really fucking happy about our impending doom. I'm not ready to talk to them about this yet, but when I do, I'm going to keep it to how I feel, not numbers, because it's what they *trust*. It's not because they're stupid. My brother in law's a civil engineer. He may be better at math than I am. It's just not how they come to conclusions about what to do - feelings and sincerity are king.
On a... I'm no longer shaking with rage and can address this stuff note:
It doesn't help. It just makes you feel...I'm not sure...Better? I honestly don't know because I don't feel it. I just know it doesn't help anything real. And we need all the real help we can muster right now.
Being angry, even hating people is a natural reaction to being attacked. It isn't your place to tell people how they should grieve or otherwise cope with what's coming. It is, in fact, incredibly disrespectful to engage in that. So, you know, don't.
posted by mordax at 6:37 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
With all due respect... when so many people's basic human rights are on the line, is getting along on Facebook really the top priority?
Partially, yes. Because I'm also out as trans on my FB page, and they get to read my trials and tribulations regarding this. It may give them pause when anti-trans legislation comes down the pike, as now they can't say that they don't know any trans people, and are thus ignorant to what trans people go through. Or, at least me. (And I don't speak for all trans people, certainly.)
posted by spinifex23 at 6:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Partially, yes. Because I'm also out as trans on my FB page, and they get to read my trials and tribulations regarding this. It may give them pause when anti-trans legislation comes down the pike, as now they can't say that they don't know any trans people, and are thus ignorant to what trans people go through. Or, at least me. (And I don't speak for all trans people, certainly.)
posted by spinifex23 at 6:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Reuters Exclusive: Trump team seeks names of officials working to counter violent extremism: The requests to the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security involve a set of programs that seek to prevent violence by extremists of any stripe, including recruitment by militant Islamist groups within the United States and abroad.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Which, I think, although I already namechecked him once in this thread, he's worth two in these confusing times for his clarity, thedarksideofprocyon, is where Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent can be helpful. It specifically clairfies the role of media entities in the democratic process, and how they interact with different populations to achieve certain ends.
That they have encouraged both racism and viciousness in large numbers of young men is sadly, neither unexpected, nor particularly novel in the history of democracies. It's basically Step One before 'Feed Population Into Meat Grinder of War Machine For Profit.'
posted by mrdaneri at 6:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
That they have encouraged both racism and viciousness in large numbers of young men is sadly, neither unexpected, nor particularly novel in the history of democracies. It's basically Step One before 'Feed Population Into Meat Grinder of War Machine For Profit.'
posted by mrdaneri at 6:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm sorry, spinifex23. You're totally right and I'm a jackass. I'm gonna stop drunkposting now.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 6:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by the turtle's teeth at 6:40 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's totally cool, the turtle's teeth. It was a good thing to reflect on, on my part. Especially because so many of my friends are going the opposite tack on social media, and demanding/threatening those who voted for Trump, etc. to defriend, sever, etc.
Instead, I have an Evangelical member of the WI Republican Party baking me Christmas Krumkake. It may not be totally 'building bridges', but she can at least read what I go through, and maybe use that info to talk to her friends about it, etc. Plus, she makes a mean krumkake.
posted by spinifex23 at 6:44 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Instead, I have an Evangelical member of the WI Republican Party baking me Christmas Krumkake. It may not be totally 'building bridges', but she can at least read what I go through, and maybe use that info to talk to her friends about it, etc. Plus, she makes a mean krumkake.
posted by spinifex23 at 6:44 PM on December 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Part of my own problem, and one I've been working on, is that I tend to be very cowardly when I feel or am verbally attacked. I don't stand up for myself or my beliefs well. My natural instinct is to run from an argument (partly because of worsening anxiety). However, now I feel I can no longer stay quiet in good conscience and am working on being more open about my beliefs online, and that has started to cause some conflict with my conservative friends. *
* That, and they've crossed lines I feel uncomfortable about and which went beyond criticizing tumblr bullying, which I could get behind - things like making fun of college students for getting therapy after a campus visit from Milo Yiannopoulos, and saying things will be okay for LGBTQ+ people because Peter Thiel is a gay Trump supporter and said so.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
* That, and they've crossed lines I feel uncomfortable about and which went beyond criticizing tumblr bullying, which I could get behind - things like making fun of college students for getting therapy after a campus visit from Milo Yiannopoulos, and saying things will be okay for LGBTQ+ people because Peter Thiel is a gay Trump supporter and said so.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The story going around that the letter that trump rec'd from putin is the same as a July 4th letter to Obama...
I can't find any news story about this. It's fake, correct?
posted by futz at 6:52 PM on December 23, 2016
I can't find any news story about this. It's fake, correct?
posted by futz at 6:52 PM on December 23, 2016
Notice that nowhere on this list is shaming, punishing, or hating people who voted for Trump. Whether they support him wholeheartedly or just fell for his lies about bringing jobs and prosperity back, attacking them, disparaging them, and treating them like your arch enemy doesn't help anybody.
Moral qualms about this kind of behavior aside, it has been politically effective, not to mention financially lucrative, for a rather large fraction of the right for the last 30 years. So "don't do this because it doesn't help anybody" isn't a good argument. It has helped a lot of people; indeed, it is just this kind of behavior which helped put Donald Trump in office.
But as other comments point out, there's online venting and there's campaigning for office. There's dealing with racist strangers and dealing with racist family and dealing with the possibly genuinely suckered. And a wide variety of rhetorical strategies for all the many different requirements of political communication. None of it is either-or.
And to be honest, the people #NeverTrumpers need to reach isn't Trump voters, who voted for him in small enough numbers, but the larger percentage of Americans who didn't vote at all in the last election, who cared neither for Trump or Clinton. It remains to be seen if trying to make Trump, Trumpism, and Trumpkins as popular as sexually transmitted diseases is "ineffective" or not.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Moral qualms about this kind of behavior aside, it has been politically effective, not to mention financially lucrative, for a rather large fraction of the right for the last 30 years. So "don't do this because it doesn't help anybody" isn't a good argument. It has helped a lot of people; indeed, it is just this kind of behavior which helped put Donald Trump in office.
But as other comments point out, there's online venting and there's campaigning for office. There's dealing with racist strangers and dealing with racist family and dealing with the possibly genuinely suckered. And a wide variety of rhetorical strategies for all the many different requirements of political communication. None of it is either-or.
And to be honest, the people #NeverTrumpers need to reach isn't Trump voters, who voted for him in small enough numbers, but the larger percentage of Americans who didn't vote at all in the last election, who cared neither for Trump or Clinton. It remains to be seen if trying to make Trump, Trumpism, and Trumpkins as popular as sexually transmitted diseases is "ineffective" or not.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:55 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Reuters Exclusive: Trump team seeks names of officials working to counter violent extremism
Okay seriously, wtf? First the people working on climate change, then the people working on gender equality and now this? Are these normal or reasonable requests for an incoming administration? Is there any explanation for why this is not REALLY alarming? Because I am really alarmed.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Okay seriously, wtf? First the people working on climate change, then the people working on gender equality and now this? Are these normal or reasonable requests for an incoming administration? Is there any explanation for why this is not REALLY alarming? Because I am really alarmed.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
And to be honest, the people #NeverTrumpers need to reach isn't Trump voters, who voted for him in small enough numbers, but the larger percentage of Americans who didn't vote at all in the last election, who cared neither for Trump or Clinton
I agree. Voter apathy and both sides-ism are huge problems, one the right has helped create (our voters tend to sit elections out more than theirs) and one we'll need to overcome to win. We'll need to get our side to the polls in 2018 without relying on Trump's stupidity to do it for us. How is the issue.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
I agree. Voter apathy and both sides-ism are huge problems, one the right has helped create (our voters tend to sit elections out more than theirs) and one we'll need to overcome to win. We'll need to get our side to the polls in 2018 without relying on Trump's stupidity to do it for us. How is the issue.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Activism is important. Donating money to effective organizations is important. Not silencing ourselves is essential. One of the weaknesses of liberals is also one of their strengths: The ability to see the other side of the question and to acknowledge their role in a problem.
I grew up in the 50s and early 60s. Silence, the unwillingness to speak up, the obsession with being nice and confirming, and the fear of being shouted at, meant that if you held liberal views you mostly shut your mouth. What changed things was civil disobedience, firm and resolute nonviolence, the willingness to be hurt, and things like "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
It is essential to contradict falsehood, to stand up for what is good, and to speak truth to power. It is a good thing to do. Our various (and not necessarily shared by all) values got hijacked by the right partly because we didn't feel we could own them ourselves. But things like patriotism, responsibility, hard work, ethics, and morality do not belong to the right wing. It is our responsibility to say that, loud and clear.
posted by Peach at 7:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [50 favorites]
I grew up in the 50s and early 60s. Silence, the unwillingness to speak up, the obsession with being nice and confirming, and the fear of being shouted at, meant that if you held liberal views you mostly shut your mouth. What changed things was civil disobedience, firm and resolute nonviolence, the willingness to be hurt, and things like "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
It is essential to contradict falsehood, to stand up for what is good, and to speak truth to power. It is a good thing to do. Our various (and not necessarily shared by all) values got hijacked by the right partly because we didn't feel we could own them ourselves. But things like patriotism, responsibility, hard work, ethics, and morality do not belong to the right wing. It is our responsibility to say that, loud and clear.
posted by Peach at 7:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [50 favorites]
No problem. Didn't intend to shut you up, just thought someone here might be able to connect you with a worthwhile group.
posted by Coventry at 7:11 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 7:11 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
It isn't your place to tell people how they should grieve or otherwise cope with what's coming. It is, in fact, incredibly disrespectful to engage in that. So, you know, don't
No. Fuck no. Isn't my place?
Expressing my opinion is *not* telling others what to do. I'm interested in a solution and expressed my views on what will and won't contribute to that solution. Look, people interested in having a fight can fight all they want and hate all they want, and I'll disagree with that approach all I want, and none of that means I'm telling them what to think or do or say. Hate away, just try not to get in the way of folks looking for more than a fight.
I believe the chief cause of Trumpism is ignorance. I also believe the only solution to ignorance is education. And I'm going to say so. Please don't think you have the right to tell me to stop. Because you don't.
posted by rocket88 at 7:14 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
No. Fuck no. Isn't my place?
Expressing my opinion is *not* telling others what to do. I'm interested in a solution and expressed my views on what will and won't contribute to that solution. Look, people interested in having a fight can fight all they want and hate all they want, and I'll disagree with that approach all I want, and none of that means I'm telling them what to think or do or say. Hate away, just try not to get in the way of folks looking for more than a fight.
I believe the chief cause of Trumpism is ignorance. I also believe the only solution to ignorance is education. And I'm going to say so. Please don't think you have the right to tell me to stop. Because you don't.
posted by rocket88 at 7:14 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Rocket88: No one said: stop. What was said is: telling people how to cope is disrespectful. If you wanna continue being disrespectuful to people who are not willing or able to engage with the "other side" by empathy, that's on your account. Just understand that those of us who have worn out the empathy option will not be sympathetic to it, nor will we be much inclined to be told we "have to" do it that way, for reasons that should be obvious, if you were using that empathy you suggest for Trump supporters on -the rest of us-.
posted by Archelaus at 7:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 7:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
The story going around that the letter that trump rec'd from putin is the same as a July 4th letter to Obama...
I can't find any news story about this. It's fake, correct?
Not fake, pretty damn similar.
Vladimir Putin writes Independence Day message to Obama
"The history of Russian-American relations shows that when we act as equal partners and respect each other's lawful interests, we are able to successfully resolve the most complex international issues for the benefit of both countries' peoples and all of humanity," Putin wrote, according to the Russian readout.
The Kremlin said Putin suggested past work between the two countries would "help to set the dialogue between Russia and the United States back on a constructive track" to address global concerns."
posted by chris24 at 7:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't find any news story about this. It's fake, correct?
Not fake, pretty damn similar.
Vladimir Putin writes Independence Day message to Obama
"The history of Russian-American relations shows that when we act as equal partners and respect each other's lawful interests, we are able to successfully resolve the most complex international issues for the benefit of both countries' peoples and all of humanity," Putin wrote, according to the Russian readout.
The Kremlin said Putin suggested past work between the two countries would "help to set the dialogue between Russia and the United States back on a constructive track" to address global concerns."
posted by chris24 at 7:20 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
tl;dr: give us back Eastern Europe.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Okay seriously, wtf? First the people working on climate change, then the people working on gender equality and now this? Are these normal or reasonable requests for an incoming administration? Is there any explanation for why this is not REALLY alarming? Because I am really alarmed.
Who knows? It could be a "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, fuck you".
He could be out to get the climate people but want the gender equality people for Ivanka. Regardless, it feels like a witch hunt. Hopefully someone leaks something and we can gain more insight.
posted by futz at 7:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Who knows? It could be a "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, fuck you".
He could be out to get the climate people but want the gender equality people for Ivanka. Regardless, it feels like a witch hunt. Hopefully someone leaks something and we can gain more insight.
posted by futz at 7:32 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
@LockheedMartin
LM CEO just had a good conversation with @RealDonaldTrump… she personally committed to drive down the cost of the F-35!
I'd love to be a fly on the wall during the contract renegotiation meetings with the 11 partner nations...
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
LM CEO just had a good conversation with @RealDonaldTrump… she personally committed to drive down the cost of the F-35!
I'd love to be a fly on the wall during the contract renegotiation meetings with the 11 partner nations...
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:35 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
That is some weird kabuki. LM shareholders derive no benefit from the CEO publicly reporting that news.
posted by Coventry at 7:48 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 7:48 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not fake, pretty damn similar.
Thanks. I kept seeing that it was "word for word" the same letter and it is not. Also I can't find out if the letter to Obama was also addressed to His Excellency.
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on December 23, 2016
Thanks. I kept seeing that it was "word for word" the same letter and it is not. Also I can't find out if the letter to Obama was also addressed to His Excellency.
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on December 23, 2016
Now that they've devolved into fights between the "understand, embrace, and convert" minority and the "fuck 'em all" mob, I think it's safe to day these so-called election threads have run their course. I mean really, what's the point of this post being on the front page of Metafilter?
As always, skipping the thread is an option. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't talk about.
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:52 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
As always, skipping the thread is an option. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't talk about.
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:52 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
>LM CEO just had a good conversation with @RealDonaldTrump… she personally committed to drive down the cost of the F-35!
"Make me look like a brilliant negotiator and we'll getcha some a' them no-bid contracts later on."
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:52 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Make me look like a brilliant negotiator and we'll getcha some a' them no-bid contracts later on."
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:52 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Push button for short speech by Donald Trump.
uh, no thanks. don't care if it a stupid joke or whatever.
posted by futz at 7:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
uh, no thanks. don't care if it a stupid joke or whatever.
posted by futz at 7:58 PM on December 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
uh, no thanks.
No worries, it's a guerilla 'art' piece. Thesis: Donald is brief noisy hot air.
posted by porpoise at 8:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
No worries, it's a guerilla 'art' piece. Thesis: Donald is brief noisy hot air.
posted by porpoise at 8:00 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I kept seeing that it was "word for word" the same letter and it is not.
It's actually pretty much word for word in parts and some of the differences are because the July 4th letter wasn't released, we just got a Kremlin statement on it, so there is no exact text for it. It's seems clear that while not exact in wording, it's pretty much the same in intent.
From the Trump letter: "serious global and regional challenges, which our countries have had to face in recent years, show that relations between Russia and the US remain an important factor in ensuring stability and security of the modern world."
From the Kremlin statement about the July 4th letter: ""The Russian president noted that despite the differences between the two countries, Russian-American relations remain the most important factor of international stability and security."
posted by chris24 at 8:03 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's actually pretty much word for word in parts and some of the differences are because the July 4th letter wasn't released, we just got a Kremlin statement on it, so there is no exact text for it. It's seems clear that while not exact in wording, it's pretty much the same in intent.
From the Trump letter: "serious global and regional challenges, which our countries have had to face in recent years, show that relations between Russia and the US remain an important factor in ensuring stability and security of the modern world."
From the Kremlin statement about the July 4th letter: ""The Russian president noted that despite the differences between the two countries, Russian-American relations remain the most important factor of international stability and security."
posted by chris24 at 8:03 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seeing the noble captains of industry repeatedly prostrate themselves before the king-elect is completely nauseating. These are the same shitstains who tell us about the danger of big government, and here they are submitting like so many beaten dogs. What ever happened to the fiduciary responsibility to shareholders?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 8:05 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
I hope they [people who voted for Trump] suffer for it every single day of his administration, and I don't give a shit who knows it.
Personally, I guess what I find irksome about this line of thinking is that I feel it lacks perspective. Like, did you vote for President Obama? I'm sure there are parents in Pakistan or Yemen who would love to be able to see their child again, and might well want Obama voters to "suffer for it every single day". I think most people would counter this with But Reasons, and, like...yeah, precisely.
posted by zokni at 8:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Personally, I guess what I find irksome about this line of thinking is that I feel it lacks perspective. Like, did you vote for President Obama? I'm sure there are parents in Pakistan or Yemen who would love to be able to see their child again, and might well want Obama voters to "suffer for it every single day". I think most people would counter this with But Reasons, and, like...yeah, precisely.
posted by zokni at 8:09 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, the 4th of July letter sent this year to Obama? Pretty much the same as one sent in 2015. There is nothing special about Putin writing Trump.
The message was similar to a note sent by the Russian leader to Obama last Fourth of July.
posted by chris24 at 8:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The message was similar to a note sent by the Russian leader to Obama last Fourth of July.
posted by chris24 at 8:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Conservative elites always suck up to the fascists in the mistaken belief that they can control and/or profit from them.
It's as close to an iron-clad historical law as we have.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's as close to an iron-clad historical law as we have.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Personally, I guess what I find irksome about this line of thinking is that I feel it lacks perspective. Like, did you vote for President Obama? I'm sure there are parents in Pakistan or Yemen who would love to be able to see their child again, and might well want Obama voters to "suffer for it every single day". I think most people would counter this with But Reasons, and, like...yeah, precisely.
I never voted for Obama in large part as a protest against things like this.
I did vote for Hillary, and happily so: because the killing of civilians by drone is nothing compared to nuclear war. You only have to look at the last 24 hours of tweets from our President-Elect to gain some... perspective on this.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I never voted for Obama in large part as a protest against things like this.
I did vote for Hillary, and happily so: because the killing of civilians by drone is nothing compared to nuclear war. You only have to look at the last 24 hours of tweets from our President-Elect to gain some... perspective on this.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm sure there are parents in Pakistan or Yemen who would love to be able to see their child again, and might well want Obama voters to "suffer for it every single day"
This is NOT an okay thing to trot out in response to that comment. At ALL.
posted by Ashen at 8:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
This is NOT an okay thing to trot out in response to that comment. At ALL.
posted by Ashen at 8:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
And I missed that the USA Today article with the matching text from Putin is from 2015. So Putin has written very similar letters to Obama as he did to Trump in 2016, 2015, and 2014.
posted by chris24 at 8:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by chris24 at 8:15 PM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Personally, I guess what I find irksome about this line of thinking is that I feel it lacks perspective. Like, did you vote for President Obama?
Because #bothsidesdoit and they are all the same, like, there is just no reason to think that voting for Trump is worse than voting for Obama, etc etc?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 8:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Because #bothsidesdoit and they are all the same, like, there is just no reason to think that voting for Trump is worse than voting for Obama, etc etc?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 8:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
.....I think it's safe to day these so-called election threads have run their course. I mean really, what's the point of this post being on the front page of Metafilter?
Containing political discussion so that it doesn't infiltrate every post
posted by thelonius at 8:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
Containing political discussion so that it doesn't infiltrate every post
posted by thelonius at 8:18 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
Conservative elites always suck up to the fascists in the mistaken belief that they can control and/or profit from them.
And in many cases they can and have done. Donald is also a narcissist and one of ways of dealing with them is playing along with what they're after. Feed the ego. As I've said before I expect were going to see and hear about what on the surface seems like a lot of people kissing his ass and prostrating. This isn't even a sort of tactic that's special for Donald. It's quite literally tactics and strategies that you learn about in negotiation 101 for people and groups that value what he values.
It's big time annoying though, not just to see it happening but also having to play that sort strategy to either get what you want or need, or in other cases protect yourself from something.
posted by Jalliah at 8:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
And in many cases they can and have done. Donald is also a narcissist and one of ways of dealing with them is playing along with what they're after. Feed the ego. As I've said before I expect were going to see and hear about what on the surface seems like a lot of people kissing his ass and prostrating. This isn't even a sort of tactic that's special for Donald. It's quite literally tactics and strategies that you learn about in negotiation 101 for people and groups that value what he values.
It's big time annoying though, not just to see it happening but also having to play that sort strategy to either get what you want or need, or in other cases protect yourself from something.
posted by Jalliah at 8:19 PM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Seeing the noble captains of industry repeatedly prostrate themselves before the king-elect is completely nauseating.
I suspect they are just treating him as the 5-year-old child he is. They say some soothing words, expect him to shortly turn his interest to next shiny toy and keep on doing business as usual. These military contracts are locked up in thousands of pages of legal documents that stretch over the next decade or more. What some CEO says today to placate the petulant child has zero impact on their business.
posted by JackFlash at 8:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I suspect they are just treating him as the 5-year-old child he is. They say some soothing words, expect him to shortly turn his interest to next shiny toy and keep on doing business as usual. These military contracts are locked up in thousands of pages of legal documents that stretch over the next decade or more. What some CEO says today to placate the petulant child has zero impact on their business.
posted by JackFlash at 8:29 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I actually don't hope for the suffering of anyone (and I've said as much on several occasions in these threads), but I do see a very big difference between the policies of Obama / Clinton / McCain / Romney on the one hand -- call it neo-liberalism of various flavors, or whatever -- and the fascism of Donald Trump on the other.
You're the one who's not putting things into perspective here. Trump is an existential threat to the US, and to the world, in a way that no otherAmerican politician actually, no other single human being has ever been.
Can you not see that?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
You're the one who's not putting things into perspective here. Trump is an existential threat to the US, and to the world, in a way that no other
Can you not see that?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:31 PM on December 23, 2016 [15 favorites]
There are a significant number of Trump voters who never expected him to win, and were probably only slightly less surprised than the average Clinton voter about the way the election went.
Given the seeming (and widely-reported) inevitability of Clinton's win, voting for Trump probably seemed like a pretty safe way to give the whole election cycle the finger one final time. In a lot of states, it wasn't even wrong: someone who voted for Trump in, say, California or New York didn't contribute in any way to the outcome of the election—they knew going into the voting booth that the worst they could do to Clinton was a basically-powerless protest vote to "deny the mandate" in some infinitesimal way.
Lots of voters who actually did swing the election, largely in the "Blue Wall" states, might reasonably have expected the same thing too—when not even most Dem campaign strategists seemed to think that their votes were going to matter, it's hard to fault an individual voter for thinking that they were just throwing their vote away. I mean, hell, lots of Pennsylvania voters weren't born yet the last time an R vote in a Presidential election was anything but a tiny, private middle finger to the person who actually ended up winning.
More suspect are Trump voters in states where they reasonably should have known that their vote was going to be meaningful, whether or not it ended up actually being so. Those are the people who, presumably, didn't just dislike Clinton enough to want to send a tiny protest vote her way, but liked what Trump was selling and wanted it in the White House.
If you are interested in trying to converse with, much less win over, Trump voters, for whatever reason or end, figuring out whether they voted because they actually are in ideological agreement (in which case "run, hide, fight" might be in order), or were merely voting for him because it was easier than writing in "Deez Nuts" as a way to signify frustration with the options on offer coming out of the primaries, might be an important consideration.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:45 PM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
Given the seeming (and widely-reported) inevitability of Clinton's win, voting for Trump probably seemed like a pretty safe way to give the whole election cycle the finger one final time. In a lot of states, it wasn't even wrong: someone who voted for Trump in, say, California or New York didn't contribute in any way to the outcome of the election—they knew going into the voting booth that the worst they could do to Clinton was a basically-powerless protest vote to "deny the mandate" in some infinitesimal way.
Lots of voters who actually did swing the election, largely in the "Blue Wall" states, might reasonably have expected the same thing too—when not even most Dem campaign strategists seemed to think that their votes were going to matter, it's hard to fault an individual voter for thinking that they were just throwing their vote away. I mean, hell, lots of Pennsylvania voters weren't born yet the last time an R vote in a Presidential election was anything but a tiny, private middle finger to the person who actually ended up winning.
More suspect are Trump voters in states where they reasonably should have known that their vote was going to be meaningful, whether or not it ended up actually being so. Those are the people who, presumably, didn't just dislike Clinton enough to want to send a tiny protest vote her way, but liked what Trump was selling and wanted it in the White House.
If you are interested in trying to converse with, much less win over, Trump voters, for whatever reason or end, figuring out whether they voted because they actually are in ideological agreement (in which case "run, hide, fight" might be in order), or were merely voting for him because it was easier than writing in "Deez Nuts" as a way to signify frustration with the options on offer coming out of the primaries, might be an important consideration.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:45 PM on December 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
There are a significant number of Trump voters who never expected him to win, and were probably only slightly less surprised than the average Clinton voter about the way the election went.
As with so many things in the election, hello Brexit 2.0.
posted by jaduncan at 8:53 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
As with so many things in the election, hello Brexit 2.0.
posted by jaduncan at 8:53 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I saw a fairly clarifying (but horrifying) tweet this evening, noting that what Putin does is essentially conservatism without any institutional restraint, implying that the GOP diehards are going to end up as Putinists because what they want is conservatism without any checks. Perhaps that won't extend as far as the plausibly-deniable deaths of journalists and political opponents, but the essence of Putinism is the GOP fantasy scenario.
posted by holgate at 8:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by holgate at 8:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
seemed like a pretty safe way to give the whole election cycle the finger one final time.
We should just pass an amendment requiring that in every federal election the first question on the ballot should be:
"Do you want to give the finger to the government? []Yes []No"
posted by FJT at 8:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
We should just pass an amendment requiring that in every federal election the first question on the ballot should be:
"Do you want to give the finger to the government? []Yes []No"
posted by FJT at 8:57 PM on December 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't know that we can assign existential threat to the presidential elect just yet. Not that I am sympathetic to him in any way, but merely that the scope of his accomplishments are too shallow.
As others have sagely noted, being the GOP equivalent of 'DEEZNUTZ' isn't much.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:59 PM on December 23, 2016
As others have sagely noted, being the GOP equivalent of 'DEEZNUTZ' isn't much.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:59 PM on December 23, 2016
A semi-related point is that US media basically needs to import foreign journalists, or at least take some crash courses in how journalism works when you're extrapolating policy and intent from a pit filled with impulse and narcissism and grift. Old rules aren't going to work any more. It's going to be (semi-literal) Kremlinology.
posted by holgate at 9:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by holgate at 9:01 PM on December 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
The amount of evidence-free hypotheticals people will make to excuse white people voting for an overt racist fascist who's clearly incompetent and corrupt and probably insane is really amazing to me. Even if they did just want to give the system or Clinton the finger, why the hell would we want to build a strategy around or spend time going after such a fickle voter who had enough affinity for Trump and his beliefs that they didn't go third party with that middle finger.
posted by chris24 at 9:03 PM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 9:03 PM on December 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
I don't know that we can assign existential threat to the presidential elect just yet. Not that I am sympathetic to him in any way, but merely that the scope of his accomplishments are too shallow.
As others have sagely noted, being the GOP equivalent of 'DEEZNUTZ' isn't much.
Sorry, let me amend my previous comment to include the last 48 hours of the tweet history of the President-Elect, since I'd forgotten that it has been almost two full days since he publicly announced:
"The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes".
I'm pretty comfortable assigning an "existential threat" level to a person who in fewer than thirty days will have direct and almost completely autonomous control over a weapons arsenal that can destroy the entire planet many, many times over, and who sees no danger whatsoever in tossing out offhand comments like this.
The scope of his accomplishments to date is quite horrifying enough, thanks. I don't need to wait until Donald Trump actually takes command of the strongest military in the history of the world to start doing a comparative analysis of the relative flaws between him and President Obama.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
As others have sagely noted, being the GOP equivalent of 'DEEZNUTZ' isn't much.
Sorry, let me amend my previous comment to include the last 48 hours of the tweet history of the President-Elect, since I'd forgotten that it has been almost two full days since he publicly announced:
"The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes".
I'm pretty comfortable assigning an "existential threat" level to a person who in fewer than thirty days will have direct and almost completely autonomous control over a weapons arsenal that can destroy the entire planet many, many times over, and who sees no danger whatsoever in tossing out offhand comments like this.
The scope of his accomplishments to date is quite horrifying enough, thanks. I don't need to wait until Donald Trump actually takes command of the strongest military in the history of the world to start doing a comparative analysis of the relative flaws between him and President Obama.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:16 PM on December 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
I don't take the nuclear posturing itself too seriously. He had to say something about some government pork because there was a negative reaction to Gingrich's trial balloon about not Draining the Swamp. So he talked about cutting costs on the F-35, but now he looks weak to some on foreign policy and preserving US military strength, so he throws in a bit of red meat about beefing up nuclear weapons. As long as his coalition lets him slide on it, I doubt he'll actually want to do anything like that.
Of course, if all of that's true it's still terrible and a terrible omen that he's making commitments on the basis of such reasoning.
posted by Coventry at 9:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Of course, if all of that's true it's still terrible and a terrible omen that he's making commitments on the basis of such reasoning.
posted by Coventry at 9:33 PM on December 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm with tivalasvegas here: there's sufficient evidence that the White House resident-elect gets a sufficient thrill out of the idea of using nuclear weapons -- and has fantasised about doing so, dating back decades -- that we should assume that he's going to ask about nuking Raqqa -- just a little nuke, y'know -- as soon as he has the codes. We should also assume that the chain of command isn't going to intervene, even if it ought to.
A narcissist will treat all powers granted to him as powers available to him.
posted by holgate at 9:39 PM on December 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
A narcissist will treat all powers granted to him as powers available to him.
posted by holgate at 9:39 PM on December 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
He's a narcissistic sociopath obsessed with dominance. Of course the most powerful weapon in the world under solely his control is a toy he's going to want to play with.
posted by chris24 at 9:43 PM on December 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 9:43 PM on December 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
No. Fuck no. Isn't my place?
So, this place is special. Everybody - or almost everybody - is going to presume good faith on your part. We're going to take for granted that you're one of us, you mean well, you believe what you say.
We're easy mode on persuasion. Even under these conditions, you failed badly. I think you don't know what you're talking about, and I am disinclined to accept your arguments. I was briefly tempted to yell at you. That's as far as you got with 'persuade me your argument is better than mine.'
I'm going to assume everything you said was in good faith, and I'm going to be helpful for a moment instead of foaming with rage. I'm not making a point with this, I'm just going to engage you in good faith a moment because that's what this place is for.
There are at least two key problems with your approach. The first is that you're dismissing potential help out of hand:
Hate away, just try not to get in the way of folks looking for more than a fight.
After one heated exchange with me, I'm out. You just ceded that I can't help you, right there, because I was critical of you. If you want to do productive work building coalitions, you will need to weather arguments you feel are unfair with significantly more grace.
And then there's the failure of empathy, which is why I was so angry with you to start. Look here:
It doesn't help. It just makes you feel...I'm not sure...Better? I honestly don't know because I don't feel it.
That's what raised my hackles. It's a shit thing to say. The fact you can't see why concerns me. In general, 'I don't know why you would feel the things you do and it isn't important because I don't share it' is probably the literal furthest you could be from empathy. I mean, *literally* literally, not literally-figuratively-literally: empathy is about understanding what people feel and why, and you are ceding that you can't do that, even for a moment.
A lot of the people you want to reach - people who will vote in 2018 or 2020 or not - are feeling angry and hateful and terrified right now. You can't effectively communicate your ideas without acknowledging and defusing that, which you seem ill-equipped to do.
Anyway, that's where I'm coming from, it's why I basically told you to shut up. I hope that makes sense, and I hope that feedback will aid you in improving your own approach to these matters.
I would also entreat you to remember that people who are foaming at the mouth angrily aren't usually doing it because they *haven't* thought stuff through. If you examine this thread, I think you'll find that I actually have a coherent framework for why 'yell at conservatives' is the right thing to do in many cases, and why I believe 'talk sober and calm' will fail. Other people are going to have a lot of other reasons for voting wrong or not voting at all, and you'll need to get past initial resistance and understand those reasons before you can begin to move people where you want them.
Anyway, outta spoons. Take it or leave it - if you can work with that, godspeed in your work. If you feel moved to use the word fuck again, do us both a favor and never, ever address me again.
posted by mordax at 9:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
So, this place is special. Everybody - or almost everybody - is going to presume good faith on your part. We're going to take for granted that you're one of us, you mean well, you believe what you say.
We're easy mode on persuasion. Even under these conditions, you failed badly. I think you don't know what you're talking about, and I am disinclined to accept your arguments. I was briefly tempted to yell at you. That's as far as you got with 'persuade me your argument is better than mine.'
I'm going to assume everything you said was in good faith, and I'm going to be helpful for a moment instead of foaming with rage. I'm not making a point with this, I'm just going to engage you in good faith a moment because that's what this place is for.
There are at least two key problems with your approach. The first is that you're dismissing potential help out of hand:
Hate away, just try not to get in the way of folks looking for more than a fight.
After one heated exchange with me, I'm out. You just ceded that I can't help you, right there, because I was critical of you. If you want to do productive work building coalitions, you will need to weather arguments you feel are unfair with significantly more grace.
And then there's the failure of empathy, which is why I was so angry with you to start. Look here:
It doesn't help. It just makes you feel...I'm not sure...Better? I honestly don't know because I don't feel it.
That's what raised my hackles. It's a shit thing to say. The fact you can't see why concerns me. In general, 'I don't know why you would feel the things you do and it isn't important because I don't share it' is probably the literal furthest you could be from empathy. I mean, *literally* literally, not literally-figuratively-literally: empathy is about understanding what people feel and why, and you are ceding that you can't do that, even for a moment.
A lot of the people you want to reach - people who will vote in 2018 or 2020 or not - are feeling angry and hateful and terrified right now. You can't effectively communicate your ideas without acknowledging and defusing that, which you seem ill-equipped to do.
Anyway, that's where I'm coming from, it's why I basically told you to shut up. I hope that makes sense, and I hope that feedback will aid you in improving your own approach to these matters.
I would also entreat you to remember that people who are foaming at the mouth angrily aren't usually doing it because they *haven't* thought stuff through. If you examine this thread, I think you'll find that I actually have a coherent framework for why 'yell at conservatives' is the right thing to do in many cases, and why I believe 'talk sober and calm' will fail. Other people are going to have a lot of other reasons for voting wrong or not voting at all, and you'll need to get past initial resistance and understand those reasons before you can begin to move people where you want them.
Anyway, outta spoons. Take it or leave it - if you can work with that, godspeed in your work. If you feel moved to use the word fuck again, do us both a favor and never, ever address me again.
posted by mordax at 9:46 PM on December 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
Way, way back (Sorry I was at work but just had to insert this), on reaching out to Trump voters: Bernie Sanders Talks to Trump Voters Ignore the whole "destroys" caption; that wasn't his intent. The important takeaway is that some people will probably always vote republican even if they think liberal/progressive. They just cannot see the contradiction. One guy goes so far as to call Trump's campaign lies "starting a dialogue", as opposed to just straight up bullshit.
Sanders' expression in the freeze-frame really nails the exasperation that any of us have had in talking with someone like this. I gave up with family members like this.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sanders' expression in the freeze-frame really nails the exasperation that any of us have had in talking with someone like this. I gave up with family members like this.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:47 PM on December 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
By the way, I've always been a big proponent of trying to reach out; I'm a peacemaker by nature. But what Pakman says about the futility of changing minds is probably, sadly true. Our only hope seems to be in energizing our base by taking strong stances.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 10:02 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 10:02 PM on December 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
That whole town-hall is a masterpiece. Highly recommended.
posted by Coventry at 10:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 10:04 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
So he talked about cutting costs on the F-35, but now he looks weak to some on foreign policy and preserving US military strength, so he throws in a bit of red meat about beefing up nuclear weapons.
My conspiratorial thought was this: Putin is looking for ways to saber-rattle and beef up his nationalist image, and strengthening Russia's nuclear arsenal is an attractive way to do this. If he, by way of surrogates like Manafort or Flynn, managed to encourage Trump to tweet about increasing the US nuclear arsenal, then he gets the cover he needs to move forward while the blowback hits Trump. "Hey, Russia also would like to modernize and strengthen its nuclear capabilities."
posted by Existential Dread at 10:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
My conspiratorial thought was this: Putin is looking for ways to saber-rattle and beef up his nationalist image, and strengthening Russia's nuclear arsenal is an attractive way to do this. If he, by way of surrogates like Manafort or Flynn, managed to encourage Trump to tweet about increasing the US nuclear arsenal, then he gets the cover he needs to move forward while the blowback hits Trump. "Hey, Russia also would like to modernize and strengthen its nuclear capabilities."
posted by Existential Dread at 10:06 PM on December 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why Did Planned Parenthood Supporters Vote Trump? (Slate)
This leads to an obvious question: If these women think defunding Planned Parenthood is a deal-breaker, why did they vote for a candidate who promised to do exactly that? After all, in a September letter addressed to “Pro-Life Leaders,” Trump pledged to strip Planned Parenthood’s federal funding unless it stops performing abortions. But many of the people in the focus groups didn’t know he’d made this assurance, and those who did didn’t take it seriously. It seemed as if Trump’s lasciviousness, which Clinton hoped would disqualify Trump with women, actually worked in his favor. The focus group participants couldn’t imagine that Trump would enact a religious right agenda. “He’s probably paid for a few abortions himself,” said the 58-year-old in Phoenix, eliciting a roomful of laughs.
posted by Brian B. at 10:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
This leads to an obvious question: If these women think defunding Planned Parenthood is a deal-breaker, why did they vote for a candidate who promised to do exactly that? After all, in a September letter addressed to “Pro-Life Leaders,” Trump pledged to strip Planned Parenthood’s federal funding unless it stops performing abortions. But many of the people in the focus groups didn’t know he’d made this assurance, and those who did didn’t take it seriously. It seemed as if Trump’s lasciviousness, which Clinton hoped would disqualify Trump with women, actually worked in his favor. The focus group participants couldn’t imagine that Trump would enact a religious right agenda. “He’s probably paid for a few abortions himself,” said the 58-year-old in Phoenix, eliciting a roomful of laughs.
posted by Brian B. at 10:10 PM on December 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
My conspiratorial thought was this: Putin is looking for ways to saber-rattle and beef up his nationalist image, and strengthening Russia's nuclear arsenal is an attractive way to do this.
Killing the viability of the F35 would be a lovely gift, of course.
posted by jaduncan at 12:19 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Killing the viability of the F35 would be a lovely gift, of course.
posted by jaduncan at 12:19 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Re: Bad encounters with Tumblr. Here's the thing about the worst parts of fandom: it's primarly driven by teen and 20-something girls. Which means you get all kinds of mean girl behavior. The fact that the latest wave of intra-fandom wars has been fought over social justice issues doesn't make the people involved any less obnoxious than when it was over who should be sleeping with the sexy character.
I was kicked out of a forum for being racist because I said I thought some people in a fandom were overreacting over a thing. This was a forum that I'd been a very active member of for years. That seriously messed me up emotionally and yeah, I have a chip on my shoulder over it.
I joined Tumblr AFTER that to try to connect with people and I only lasted about 3 months before I had to leave because of the levels of rage the fandom people there caused me. It's truly toxic and there is a crusading mindset that makes it people's DUTY to harass anyone who disagrees with them. But now I'm an old school fandom queen. I go back to the days of Listserv and was around Livejournal in it's heyday. I survived the Harry Potter and Doctor Who ship wars. I've seen my share of death threats. Nothing new under the sun.
So I'm not at all surprised to find that someone got their feelings seriously hurt. And I think there's a real conversation to be had about tactics and whether using the same tactics as gamergaters in the pursuit of liberal ideals is the right thing. But, yanno, it's people on the internet who devote a lot of time to fringe interests and live in very isolated little bubbles of obsession. Shit be weird in those waters, yo.
posted by threeturtles at 12:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
I was kicked out of a forum for being racist because I said I thought some people in a fandom were overreacting over a thing. This was a forum that I'd been a very active member of for years. That seriously messed me up emotionally and yeah, I have a chip on my shoulder over it.
I joined Tumblr AFTER that to try to connect with people and I only lasted about 3 months before I had to leave because of the levels of rage the fandom people there caused me. It's truly toxic and there is a crusading mindset that makes it people's DUTY to harass anyone who disagrees with them. But now I'm an old school fandom queen. I go back to the days of Listserv and was around Livejournal in it's heyday. I survived the Harry Potter and Doctor Who ship wars. I've seen my share of death threats. Nothing new under the sun.
So I'm not at all surprised to find that someone got their feelings seriously hurt. And I think there's a real conversation to be had about tactics and whether using the same tactics as gamergaters in the pursuit of liberal ideals is the right thing. But, yanno, it's people on the internet who devote a lot of time to fringe interests and live in very isolated little bubbles of obsession. Shit be weird in those waters, yo.
posted by threeturtles at 12:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
“He’s probably paid for a few abortions himself,” said the 58-year-old in Phoenix, eliciting a roomful of laughs.
...which allowed the Forced Childbirth gang to blackmail him into not standing in their way...
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:27 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
...which allowed the Forced Childbirth gang to blackmail him into not standing in their way...
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:27 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I survived the Harry Potter and Doctor Who ship wars. I've seen my share of death threats. Nothing new under the sun.
What does this mean? Translation please.
posted by futz at 12:52 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
What does this mean? Translation please.
posted by futz at 12:52 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tumblr and LJ were the reasons I never doubted that there were Russian bots all over Twitter and Reddit. Anyone who has spent enough time at the former places, especially LJ which Putin hates, knows about that little quirk of Russian social media.
posted by asteria at 1:26 AM on December 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by asteria at 1:26 AM on December 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
What does this mean? Translation please.
In case this is the missing piece: "to ship" evidently means to write fan fiction depicting (or maybe even just to discuss or imagine?) a romantic relationship between two characters who are not depicted as having such a relationship in the canonical work of fiction the writing is based on.
According to that MeFi FPP and thread, people evidently argue the merits of different ships with great enthusiasm and conviction, so presumably threeturtles is describing online disagreements among fans that escalated to death threats.
posted by XMLicious at 1:52 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thinking of fandom factionalism and enmity in sports fandom (a Classics professor told me that fans of the chariot racing teams of the Roman Colosseum would, beyond just making threats, actually murder each other with some frequency over whose favorite team was better) along with the political tribalism we seem to have developed in conjunction with ideological polarization in the U.S., has made me remember a Wikipedia article I came across entitled Australian Aboriginal kinship, which says
So maybe we need something along the same lines... a fictive kinship system to overlay and counterbalance the hostility deriving from shifting political fronts. (I suppose this is what normal USian kinship relationships should do, but it doesn't seem to be working.)
We need to preach the gospel of The Great Enspousening to the wider world.
posted by XMLicious at 3:12 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have difficulty understanding the article in its entirety and who knows whether it's legit, but it seems like it could be describing a system of interpersonal obligations and allegiance that can be orthogonal to blood relations and maybe work to counterbalance inter-familial tensions and rivalry.While membership in skin groups is ideally based on blood relations, Australian Aboriginal subsection systems are classificatory, meaning that even people who are not actual blood relations are assigned to a subsection. They are also universal, meaning that every member of the society is assigned a position in the system.
So maybe we need something along the same lines... a fictive kinship system to overlay and counterbalance the hostility deriving from shifting political fronts. (I suppose this is what normal USian kinship relationships should do, but it doesn't seem to be working.)
We need to preach the gospel of The Great Enspousening to the wider world.
posted by XMLicious at 3:12 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Give it the respect that it deserves
Yes, as history shows us, time and again, the best way to fight fascism, bigotry, and nationalism is to be very polite and respectful with hugs and unicorns and flowered bridges all around.
I think you're both right. I generally aim for "respect the office, not necessarily the behaviour." So when it comes to Malcolm Turnbull (I'm an Aussie), I can simultaneously respect him and his position because he is actually PM, and also urge a more humane solution to the issues with Nauru and Manus Island. That's not to say he's a bad PM - I think quite the opposite (and I think the US refugee deal is a great step in the right direction). But I won't ever suspend criticism, because I want him to be better. That's always, universally OK. Dictatorships may suppress criticism but that happens against the leaders' own best interest. And Trump might not appreciate public criticism, but various people I've met who seem to have similar personality traits really appreciate private criticism, especially if it's phrased in the right way and accompanied with a solution that lets them save face and look good. And do you know what? If getting some positive results from the Trump administration means that Trump gets to take credit for things he didn't do and crow about them - that's great, no sarcasm, and I'll go out of my way (or would if I was living in the US) to make that happen.
Anywho. If I was living in the US for the next 4 years and wanted to do some good, I'd probably start reading up about historical figures who managed to exert a really positive influence on a resistant or apathetic government. Wilberforce comes to mind. (Suggest away!)
Also, corb:
Maybe this hits me harder because it's Christmas, but: I refuse to let my morals or my tactics be dictated by the standards of MAGAshirts. I believe in building bridges. It's who I am. I believe we must build bridges if we are to survive as a people. You can't just kill half the country. You have to persuade them.
So I'm going to keep doing this admittedly heartbreaking and difficult work. Because it needs doing, and I'm someone with the spoons currently to do it.
I love that. QFawesomeness.
posted by iffthen at 3:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, as history shows us, time and again, the best way to fight fascism, bigotry, and nationalism is to be very polite and respectful with hugs and unicorns and flowered bridges all around.
I think you're both right. I generally aim for "respect the office, not necessarily the behaviour." So when it comes to Malcolm Turnbull (I'm an Aussie), I can simultaneously respect him and his position because he is actually PM, and also urge a more humane solution to the issues with Nauru and Manus Island. That's not to say he's a bad PM - I think quite the opposite (and I think the US refugee deal is a great step in the right direction). But I won't ever suspend criticism, because I want him to be better. That's always, universally OK. Dictatorships may suppress criticism but that happens against the leaders' own best interest. And Trump might not appreciate public criticism, but various people I've met who seem to have similar personality traits really appreciate private criticism, especially if it's phrased in the right way and accompanied with a solution that lets them save face and look good. And do you know what? If getting some positive results from the Trump administration means that Trump gets to take credit for things he didn't do and crow about them - that's great, no sarcasm, and I'll go out of my way (or would if I was living in the US) to make that happen.
Anywho. If I was living in the US for the next 4 years and wanted to do some good, I'd probably start reading up about historical figures who managed to exert a really positive influence on a resistant or apathetic government. Wilberforce comes to mind. (Suggest away!)
Also, corb:
Maybe this hits me harder because it's Christmas, but: I refuse to let my morals or my tactics be dictated by the standards of MAGAshirts. I believe in building bridges. It's who I am. I believe we must build bridges if we are to survive as a people. You can't just kill half the country. You have to persuade them.
So I'm going to keep doing this admittedly heartbreaking and difficult work. Because it needs doing, and I'm someone with the spoons currently to do it.
I love that. QFawesomeness.
posted by iffthen at 3:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
That leads me to a concrete suggestion. If you can bear the Twitterverse and somehow end up tweeting @realDonaldTrump, maybe... don't. Send a DM instead. That way if your idea is good you might sow a seed. (No idea about Don's Twitter blocks or anything, but since I'm not in the US making my abstract ideas actionable is the least I can offer.)
posted by iffthen at 3:38 AM on December 24, 2016
posted by iffthen at 3:38 AM on December 24, 2016
WaPo: Why the white working class votes against themselves.
I really hate sloppy propaganda. She is shaking her finger at the WWC and using direct payment to farmers as a talking point, while the article she links to says:
"While the majority of American farmers receive no government money at all, at least 23 current members of congress or their families have received government money for their farms"
Neither article mentions small farmers can't afford to grow corn because subsidized corporate farms make their profits off of government money per acre, pushing the price of corn below the cost to produce. And who do you think takes the profits after buying that cheap corn?
A whole bunch of the farm bill cash makes a not very roundabout way into the bank accounts of companies located in cities. Maybe a better meme would be "Farmers laundering government money for big business."
posted by ridgerunner at 3:44 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
I really hate sloppy propaganda. She is shaking her finger at the WWC and using direct payment to farmers as a talking point, while the article she links to says:
"While the majority of American farmers receive no government money at all, at least 23 current members of congress or their families have received government money for their farms"
Neither article mentions small farmers can't afford to grow corn because subsidized corporate farms make their profits off of government money per acre, pushing the price of corn below the cost to produce. And who do you think takes the profits after buying that cheap corn?
A whole bunch of the farm bill cash makes a not very roundabout way into the bank accounts of companies located in cities. Maybe a better meme would be "Farmers laundering government money for big business."
posted by ridgerunner at 3:44 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Personally, I don't know anyone who voted for Trump for anything other than the shittiest reasons.
I had a surprising conversation with someone about that. He's not a US citizen, so he didn't actually vote for Trump, but he would have. He and his wife are the loveliest people you could imagine: ex-hippies, always helping others out. He said that the USA used to believe in itself. It's done a huge amount of good (I didn't start adding caveats, this is what he said) with famine relief and schools and assistance across the world, and it's an example to other nations. Under Obama and his predecessors, he said, the US has lost that pride in itself that made it want to be an example. He thought Trump would restore that pride and make the USA a force for good again.
I didn't feel like arguing with him about how loathsome Trump actually is, and the bad things the USA has also done, but it was a different perspective.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:47 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I had a surprising conversation with someone about that. He's not a US citizen, so he didn't actually vote for Trump, but he would have. He and his wife are the loveliest people you could imagine: ex-hippies, always helping others out. He said that the USA used to believe in itself. It's done a huge amount of good (I didn't start adding caveats, this is what he said) with famine relief and schools and assistance across the world, and it's an example to other nations. Under Obama and his predecessors, he said, the US has lost that pride in itself that made it want to be an example. He thought Trump would restore that pride and make the USA a force for good again.
I didn't feel like arguing with him about how loathsome Trump actually is, and the bad things the USA has also done, but it was a different perspective.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:47 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just can't help but automatically translate "pride in itself" to "white people didn't feel humiliated by a slight shift in status."
I mean, what did Obama do that made the country lose pride in itself? What will Trump do to restore that pride? Trump's only concrete promises involved white nationalism. When people hear that and translate it to "American pride," I can't believe that they mean pride for everyone.
posted by maxsparber at 4:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [40 favorites]
I mean, what did Obama do that made the country lose pride in itself? What will Trump do to restore that pride? Trump's only concrete promises involved white nationalism. When people hear that and translate it to "American pride," I can't believe that they mean pride for everyone.
posted by maxsparber at 4:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [40 favorites]
Under Obama and his predecessors, he said, the US has lost that pride in itself that made it want to be an example. He thought Trump would restore that pride and make the USA a force for good again.
I am so painfully bitter about your friend's viewpoint, Joe, as a young American who did have a certain level of quiet pride in at least the ideals and foundations of her nation, if not always the actions. I thought we were doing better.
I wonder what your friend's reaction would be to hearing just how significantly this election has wounded the belief that many Americans had in their fellow Americans. And, you know, as someone who just fielded her Canadian spouse, who handles Trump voters on a daily basis at work, snarling "Look, I hate this country now; I am never going to believe it can be saved; help me get out" through tears as I wept back and tried to muster any response through my shared fear...
...well. You tell your friend that patriotism isn't Donald's. That's all I'm saying.
posted by sciatrix at 4:36 AM on December 24, 2016 [29 favorites]
I am so painfully bitter about your friend's viewpoint, Joe, as a young American who did have a certain level of quiet pride in at least the ideals and foundations of her nation, if not always the actions. I thought we were doing better.
I wonder what your friend's reaction would be to hearing just how significantly this election has wounded the belief that many Americans had in their fellow Americans. And, you know, as someone who just fielded her Canadian spouse, who handles Trump voters on a daily basis at work, snarling "Look, I hate this country now; I am never going to believe it can be saved; help me get out" through tears as I wept back and tried to muster any response through my shared fear...
...well. You tell your friend that patriotism isn't Donald's. That's all I'm saying.
posted by sciatrix at 4:36 AM on December 24, 2016 [29 favorites]
I wonder what your friend's reaction would be to hearing just how significantly this election has wounded the belief that many Americans had in their fellow Americans. And, you know, as someone who just fielded her Canadian spouse, who handles Trump voters on a daily basis at work, snarling "Look, I hate this country now; I am never going to believe it can be saved; help me get out" through tears as I wept back and tried to muster any response through my shared fear...
Sciatrix, I totally agree with you, and I can only hope that if he was a high-information sort of person (or at least an American or in the USA) he'd have a different opinion. But you know, it's a different perspective, and even though he's wrong about Trump being the one to make the USA a moral example, there are lots of things that US Presidents could do both to set an example and to encourage other countries to do the same.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:46 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sciatrix, I totally agree with you, and I can only hope that if he was a high-information sort of person (or at least an American or in the USA) he'd have a different opinion. But you know, it's a different perspective, and even though he's wrong about Trump being the one to make the USA a moral example, there are lots of things that US Presidents could do both to set an example and to encourage other countries to do the same.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:46 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Joe in Australia: Under Obama and his predecessors, he said, the US has lost that pride in itself that made it want to be an example.
From another outsider: Under Obama, the US looked [almost] sensible, more of an example than it had been for a long time, and more than ever something to be proud of.
'Pride in itself' sounds like bullshit to me. It sounds like pride for the sake of pride. There needs to be something there to be proud of, otherwise it's meaningless.
Also I don't see why the US needs to be an example of anything. It could be a country, existing in the world together with other countries, doing no harm, and as much good as possible. That might be something to strive for. But an example? I'm not sure the world needs those.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:49 AM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
From another outsider: Under Obama, the US looked [almost] sensible, more of an example than it had been for a long time, and more than ever something to be proud of.
'Pride in itself' sounds like bullshit to me. It sounds like pride for the sake of pride. There needs to be something there to be proud of, otherwise it's meaningless.
Also I don't see why the US needs to be an example of anything. It could be a country, existing in the world together with other countries, doing no harm, and as much good as possible. That might be something to strive for. But an example? I'm not sure the world needs those.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:49 AM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
I agree. I was optimistic about Clinton, even, although I was and am in no way thrilled with her foreign policy. I just trusted her to listen to the people.
I just wanted to tell your friend that he had hit me in a fucking sore spot, in part because I actually held my patriotism and my faith in institutions pretty close to my heart. And now that faith is bleeding badly and I, like many people around me, am wrestling with a kind of trauma to my soul. If you see your friend, tell me what he thinks of that. I am genuinely interested to know.
posted by sciatrix at 4:50 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
I just wanted to tell your friend that he had hit me in a fucking sore spot, in part because I actually held my patriotism and my faith in institutions pretty close to my heart. And now that faith is bleeding badly and I, like many people around me, am wrestling with a kind of trauma to my soul. If you see your friend, tell me what he thinks of that. I am genuinely interested to know.
posted by sciatrix at 4:50 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Under Obama and his predecessors, he said, the US has lost that pride in itself that made it want to be an example. He thought Trump would restore that pride and make the USA a force for good again.
Surprising to me that a non-American would feel this way. Obama, and Clinton as well, are viewed much more favorably by Europe and Asia than Bush was or Trump is. And Clinton would win election over Trump in every country polled except... wait for it... Russia.
And anecdotally having lived in Hong Kong in 2012 and 2013 with a lot of ex-pat friends from other countries and traveling abroad a lot for my job, I honestly don't know if I've met or talked to hardly anyone who disliked Obama or, more recently, liked Trump.
posted by chris24 at 5:14 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Surprising to me that a non-American would feel this way. Obama, and Clinton as well, are viewed much more favorably by Europe and Asia than Bush was or Trump is. And Clinton would win election over Trump in every country polled except... wait for it... Russia.
And anecdotally having lived in Hong Kong in 2012 and 2013 with a lot of ex-pat friends from other countries and traveling abroad a lot for my job, I honestly don't know if I've met or talked to hardly anyone who disliked Obama or, more recently, liked Trump.
posted by chris24 at 5:14 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
The US abstained on the UN vote on Israel today, so the Security Council resolution calling for the end of Israeli settlements passed.
This is new/was unexpected, right? What does this mean? Is this another Obama attempt to sideswipe Trump?
It was and wasn't unexpected. Obama had vetoed all previous anti-Israel resolutions during his terms in office, but Israeli blogs and media have been fretting for months that Obama would use his lame duck period for something like this.
As to what it means, basically it's Obama being a dick. The motion was originally put forward by Egypt, who reportedly dropped it after your President Elect gave Sisi a phone call. It was then picked up by those stalwart friends of human rights, Malaysia and Venezuela - and New Zealand, for what that's worth. The US refused to let Israel know what it was planning to do, and then gave a speech saying that it was a reiteration of the existing US position. That's not what Israel thinks at all, and having read the text of the resolution I can see why: for instance, it describes the Israeli presence in "East Jerusalem" (i.e., the bits that you or I think of when we say "Jerusalem") as "a flagrant violation under international law"; that's a radical break from US policy and the very peace accords that the USA spent years putting together.
Anyway, I expect Trump to leverage this to the utmost, and to make it a lot harder for Jewish Democratic politicians to build coalitions. It's also very likely going to stymie Keith Ellison's hopes of becoming DNC chair, but maybe Obama considers that a bonus. So no, not a sideswipe to Trump at all.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:20 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is new/was unexpected, right? What does this mean? Is this another Obama attempt to sideswipe Trump?
It was and wasn't unexpected. Obama had vetoed all previous anti-Israel resolutions during his terms in office, but Israeli blogs and media have been fretting for months that Obama would use his lame duck period for something like this.
As to what it means, basically it's Obama being a dick. The motion was originally put forward by Egypt, who reportedly dropped it after your President Elect gave Sisi a phone call. It was then picked up by those stalwart friends of human rights, Malaysia and Venezuela - and New Zealand, for what that's worth. The US refused to let Israel know what it was planning to do, and then gave a speech saying that it was a reiteration of the existing US position. That's not what Israel thinks at all, and having read the text of the resolution I can see why: for instance, it describes the Israeli presence in "East Jerusalem" (i.e., the bits that you or I think of when we say "Jerusalem") as "a flagrant violation under international law"; that's a radical break from US policy and the very peace accords that the USA spent years putting together.
Anyway, I expect Trump to leverage this to the utmost, and to make it a lot harder for Jewish Democratic politicians to build coalitions. It's also very likely going to stymie Keith Ellison's hopes of becoming DNC chair, but maybe Obama considers that a bonus. So no, not a sideswipe to Trump at all.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:20 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Personally, I don't know anyone who voted for Trump for anything other than the shittiest reasons.
People voted for Trump because they wanted him to be the President of the United States. Or, they preferred him to HRC.
That's shitty enough. The rest is icing on the turd.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:49 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
People voted for Trump because they wanted him to be the President of the United States. Or, they preferred him to HRC.
That's shitty enough. The rest is icing on the turd.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:49 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
that's a radical break from US policy and the very peace accords that the USA spent years putting together.
Haaretz disagrees:
Well, he's not really going to be able to do anything about it, despite his bluster about what happens after Jan 20. What might happen if every other major power on the UNSC is compromised by leaders influenced by Dominionists (who would put Jews who don't convert to death if Israel becomes the Kingdom of God that they hope will happen) and/or Bannon-esque advisors, that's another story.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:57 AM on December 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
Haaretz disagrees:
Is this the first time an American president declines to veto a UNSC resolution on Israel-Palestine?So no, not a sideswipe to Trump at all.
No. Since 1967, all U.S. presidents have allowed the adoption of Security Council resolutions. To this day, 47 resolutions concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have been adopted by the UNSC, all during the presidencies of presidents other than Obama. President George H. W. Bush allowed nine resolutions to pass during his presidency. During President Bill Clinton's presidency three resolutions were adopted by the UNSC. In fact, this is the first time Obama refrained from using the U.S. veto in the Security Council when it came to Israel since he entered the White House eight years ago. Last time a resolution on Israel was brought to a vote at the Security Council in February 2011, a resolution also concerning the Israeli settlements, Obama vetoed it.
Did Obama break a decades-long tradition according to which presidents don't make policy changes in the interim between administrations?
No. Quite a few presidents have used the interim period between the election of a new president and his inauguration in which they are freed from political constraints to carry out far reaching foreign policy changes, including with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. For example, President Ronald Reagan used this interim period in 1988 to begin a dialog with the PLO. President Clinton used this period to present the "Clinton Parameters" in which he guidelines for the solving of key issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Does the resolution change the legal status of the settlements, which are already illegal under international law?
No. The Fourth Geneva Convention bans nations from the moving of populations into and the establishing of settlements in the territory of another nation won in war. An overwhelming number of countries have sided for years with the position that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal and constitute a violation of international law.
Well, he's not really going to be able to do anything about it, despite his bluster about what happens after Jan 20. What might happen if every other major power on the UNSC is compromised by leaders influenced by Dominionists (who would put Jews who don't convert to death if Israel becomes the Kingdom of God that they hope will happen) and/or Bannon-esque advisors, that's another story.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:57 AM on December 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
Also, let's not forget that immediately after his own election, as well as Trump's, Netanyahu (and several of his allies in the Knesset), broke his word on settlement expansion. No one should be putting any trust into what he says, least of all on the US.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:02 AM on December 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:02 AM on December 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Has someone told Trump that Jewish Americans voted overwhelmingly for Clinton?
posted by PenDevil at 6:04 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by PenDevil at 6:04 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
every other major power on the UNSC is compromised by leaders influenced by Dominionists ...and/or Bannon-esque advisors
Well, OK, Brexit happened and we may get LePen. But, China and Russia?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:04 AM on December 24, 2016
Well, OK, Brexit happened and we may get LePen. But, China and Russia?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:04 AM on December 24, 2016
Has someone told Trump that Jewish Americans voted overwhelmingly for Clinton?
As alluded to above, Israel policy isn't just about Jewish voters. For example, promising to move the embassy to Jerusalem is a policy intended to please eschatological Christian voters.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:08 AM on December 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
As alluded to above, Israel policy isn't just about Jewish voters. For example, promising to move the embassy to Jerusalem is a policy intended to please eschatological Christian voters.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:08 AM on December 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
And yeah, that's like totally crazy when you think about it but what else is new
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:09 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:09 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
For example, promising to move the embassy to Jerusalem is a policy intended to please eschatological Christian voters.
Sure, but I would hope Trumps ultra Likud stance would become less enthusiastic when he knows he's putting on an act for some pentecostal megachurches.
posted by PenDevil at 6:11 AM on December 24, 2016
Sure, but I would hope Trumps ultra Likud stance would become less enthusiastic when he knows he's putting on an act for some pentecostal megachurches.
posted by PenDevil at 6:11 AM on December 24, 2016
Has someone told Trump that Jewish Americans voted overwhelmingly for Clinton?
No. As snuffleupagus points out, conservative policy is much more in line with the evangelicals and Dominionists (and right-wing Jewish allies). Jewish Americans are actually less likely than evangelicals (often much more so) to believe in stuff like Israel being granted to the Jewish people by God.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:13 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
No. As snuffleupagus points out, conservative policy is much more in line with the evangelicals and Dominionists (and right-wing Jewish allies). Jewish Americans are actually less likely than evangelicals (often much more so) to believe in stuff like Israel being granted to the Jewish people by God.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:13 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I feel depressingly certain we already know Trump's relative enthusiasm for "putting on a show" versus 'engaging in actual politics.'
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:13 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:13 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, we should absolutely take him seriously when he says, “The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes,” and “Let it be an arms race.”
And so should the Senate. Remember, Trump wants to put RICK FUCKING PERRY in charge of nuclear weapons development and safety as Secretary of Energy. Perry should be opposed by every Senator with a conscience, and face thorough, brutal questioning on how exactly he is going to lead the weapons program and keep us all safe while the President tweets like a drunk Curtis LeMay.
To be effective in the next few months, the Left doesn't need to coalesce around any goals besides preventing disasters like giving the nukes to Mr. Oops, and opposing rollbacks of all the hard-won progress we've already achieved.
posted by mubba at 6:15 AM on December 24, 2016 [25 favorites]
And so should the Senate. Remember, Trump wants to put RICK FUCKING PERRY in charge of nuclear weapons development and safety as Secretary of Energy. Perry should be opposed by every Senator with a conscience, and face thorough, brutal questioning on how exactly he is going to lead the weapons program and keep us all safe while the President tweets like a drunk Curtis LeMay.
To be effective in the next few months, the Left doesn't need to coalesce around any goals besides preventing disasters like giving the nukes to Mr. Oops, and opposing rollbacks of all the hard-won progress we've already achieved.
posted by mubba at 6:15 AM on December 24, 2016 [25 favorites]
Perry should be opposed by every Senator with a conscience, and face thorough, brutal questioning on how exactly he is going to lead the weapons program and keep us all safe while the President tweets like a drunk Curtis LeMay.
I think they are actually going to have the chutzpah to tell us that everything is actually going to be run by everyone's second in command, etc., from the Oval Office down to the lowliest appointments under the direct control of the executive. The apointees are there to provide CEO style leadership and Make Their Departments Great Again.
It's a neat trick: if you stop teaching history effectively in public schools, it'll take most people a while to figure it out when you openly reinstate the Spoils System.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:21 AM on December 24, 2016 [24 favorites]
I think they are actually going to have the chutzpah to tell us that everything is actually going to be run by everyone's second in command, etc., from the Oval Office down to the lowliest appointments under the direct control of the executive. The apointees are there to provide CEO style leadership and Make Their Departments Great Again.
It's a neat trick: if you stop teaching history effectively in public schools, it'll take most people a while to figure it out when you openly reinstate the Spoils System.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:21 AM on December 24, 2016 [24 favorites]
Zombieflanders, the fact that he didn't veto the resolution isn't a break with US policy. It's the text of the resolution itself that's a problem. It's a horrible resolution and there was simply no need for Obama to break with his eight-year practice and (which is worse) give Trump a cost-free opportunity to show that he can use those "negotiating skills" of his in international diplomacy. And it's a non-binding resolution, too; it's just stupid posturing and a chance to give Netanyahu the finger.
I can think of lots of things that Obama could have done - could still do! - before he leaves office. He could pardon some more deserving people. He could start prosecuting some others. He could release Trump's tax returns. Hell, he could release the intel on ties between Putin and Trump. But this is what he spends his time on? He's damn lucky he got the Nobel Prize at the start of his terms, not the end.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can think of lots of things that Obama could have done - could still do! - before he leaves office. He could pardon some more deserving people. He could start prosecuting some others. He could release Trump's tax returns. Hell, he could release the intel on ties between Putin and Trump. But this is what he spends his time on? He's damn lucky he got the Nobel Prize at the start of his terms, not the end.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it is salient to inject the idea gaining currency of 'Neoliberalism doesn't work.' The usual line of reasoning presented is the parallel between 'Trump:: US, Brexit' as a populist referendum against Neoliberalist policies.
This would seem as a direct challenge to the 'propaganda' model of media, which would never permit such a thing in a democracy, as all institutions are presumed to be 'neoliberal' in their economic outlook.
From my own perspective, the term 'neoliberal' is so widely used as to be nearly without currency: I can think of recent pieces in the the Economist using it to describe both Thatcher-era England and Obama-era Chinese trade policies. Which are both globalist, but radically different. So my own take is the phrase 'neoliberalism doesn't work' has different gradients of meaning, depending on 'what do you mean by neoliberalism?'
posted by mrdaneri at 6:35 AM on December 24, 2016
This would seem as a direct challenge to the 'propaganda' model of media, which would never permit such a thing in a democracy, as all institutions are presumed to be 'neoliberal' in their economic outlook.
From my own perspective, the term 'neoliberal' is so widely used as to be nearly without currency: I can think of recent pieces in the the Economist using it to describe both Thatcher-era England and Obama-era Chinese trade policies. Which are both globalist, but radically different. So my own take is the phrase 'neoliberalism doesn't work' has different gradients of meaning, depending on 'what do you mean by neoliberalism?'
posted by mrdaneri at 6:35 AM on December 24, 2016
can you expand on why thatcher and obama are different? (i'm just curious - what you said surprised me, but i don't know a lot about this).
posted by andrewcooke at 6:41 AM on December 24, 2016
posted by andrewcooke at 6:41 AM on December 24, 2016
'what do you mean by neoliberalism?'
I think it's become "anything a millimeter to the right of me that I don't like." And a cudgel to be used against political opponents. If liberal is a insult from Republicans, neoliberal is an insult from leftists.
posted by chris24 at 6:44 AM on December 24, 2016 [22 favorites]
I think it's become "anything a millimeter to the right of me that I don't like." And a cudgel to be used against political opponents. If liberal is a insult from Republicans, neoliberal is an insult from leftists.
posted by chris24 at 6:44 AM on December 24, 2016 [22 favorites]
Thatcher was, again, just my reading of historical economic narratives, much more protectionist, anti-union, in a a weakly classic sense of 'neoliberal.'
I'm thinking of British Steel. ('Let's all make some plans for, Nigel!')
You can make some criticisms of Obama's Economic policies, but for my taste, he's been much more centrist, pro-Union, and pro-globalist.
posted by mrdaneri at 6:46 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm thinking of British Steel. ('Let's all make some plans for, Nigel!')
You can make some criticisms of Obama's Economic policies, but for my taste, he's been much more centrist, pro-Union, and pro-globalist.
posted by mrdaneri at 6:46 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Conservatives are happy to shit on 'neoliberals,' too. Especially the libertarian subset. They do it when they try to cloak their isolationism in a hastily-constructed imitation of post-colonialism.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:47 AM on December 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:47 AM on December 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
Thanks also for abandoning everyone here who can't move,
This a million times. I'm a trans woman stuck in Texas because of a custody case with my ex-wife that may boil down to "stay here for my kids, or abandon them because dan Patrick is about outlaw my existence?" What do I do? I can't even begin to explain how fucked up my situation is right now, follow my twitter if you want details but the short form is I am in some deep legal bullshit down here right now and things are not looking good.
To all the cis, white, straight and christian folks reading this: you really fucking need to understand what caring means now. It means be angry and scared and fighting tooth and nail for people like myself, who could all disappear tomorrow and the world would scarcely notice outside a handful of broken hearts.
This spring is going to be a national onslaught against people like me. I need you to not be patient and understanding right now. We're the canaries in your coal mine. Pay attention.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:01 AM on December 24, 2016 [88 favorites]
This a million times. I'm a trans woman stuck in Texas because of a custody case with my ex-wife that may boil down to "stay here for my kids, or abandon them because dan Patrick is about outlaw my existence?" What do I do? I can't even begin to explain how fucked up my situation is right now, follow my twitter if you want details but the short form is I am in some deep legal bullshit down here right now and things are not looking good.
To all the cis, white, straight and christian folks reading this: you really fucking need to understand what caring means now. It means be angry and scared and fighting tooth and nail for people like myself, who could all disappear tomorrow and the world would scarcely notice outside a handful of broken hearts.
This spring is going to be a national onslaught against people like me. I need you to not be patient and understanding right now. We're the canaries in your coal mine. Pay attention.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:01 AM on December 24, 2016 [88 favorites]
Maybe the abstention is a response to Israel failing to back the resolution condemning the Crimea invasion.
It probably doesn't matter anyway, since it looks like the plan going forward is to mothball the UN and go with Bannon's idea of forming Judeo-Christian Nuclear Voltron.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:12 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
It probably doesn't matter anyway, since it looks like the plan going forward is to mothball the UN and go with Bannon's idea of forming Judeo-Christian Nuclear Voltron.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:12 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
If anyone wants to move, consider moving to one of the states that had smallish margins of defeat. And not just WI, MI, PA, OH, or FL, either. AZ and GA have 27 electoral votes between them, and even (as Annika Cicada mentioned) Texas, that eternal liberal bugaboo, and the no-longer-a-democracy NC deserves more and better representation. Really, anywhere where there's a significant base of left-leaning people that could be encouraged to vote enough to win both national and state elections.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:17 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:17 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
So my thought about that article that ZeusHumms linked above about Facebook's Muslim registry -- Facebook obviously isn't going to throw out their data, but people certainly can disrupt it -- all those people who swore to sign up for a registry if one was begun could add Muslim to their Facebook "Religious Views" right now. CheeseDigestsAll has a good point, of course, that there are more accurate ways to get data on Muslims, but I don't think it would hurt to do a simple thing to make an already-existing list useless.
How to do it: click on your own Facebook profile/wall, click About, and click Contact and Basic Info -- there's a section called Religious Views, type Muslim in there.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:22 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
How to do it: click on your own Facebook profile/wall, click About, and click Contact and Basic Info -- there's a section called Religious Views, type Muslim in there.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:22 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
the u.n. doesn't matter, we'll be out. nato doesn't matter, it'll dissolve as soon as putin crosses into belarus or whatever former client state of his choosing. neoliberalism vs liberalism doesn't matter, we'll all be enemies of the state. expanding our nuclear capability doesn't matter, we already have enough nukes to get the party started. there's in fact a lot that wont matter in the coming years.
the only thing of concern is to take care of those around you and express to anyone who will listen that you do not assent to this, and to act as such. those are a few of the things that cannot be taken away and that will still matter.
posted by localhuman at 7:23 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
the only thing of concern is to take care of those around you and express to anyone who will listen that you do not assent to this, and to act as such. those are a few of the things that cannot be taken away and that will still matter.
posted by localhuman at 7:23 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the note of supporting differently identified genders and orientations, I would hope that its assumed that most readers of Metafilter would. I do this directly with my local political engagement, and privately with my diversity choices in hiring and talent selection.
Beyond that, I can't say that fears are overwrought or unjustified-- far right organizations have a long history of rolling back progressive accomplishments through incremental measures. Otherwise, I cannot comment, as it is outside the scope of both my personal experience and study.
As to what the next four years have in store for anybody, I literally am expectationless this point as we are so deep in 'Theater of the Absurd, George Saunders Novella' turf, who knows.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Beyond that, I can't say that fears are overwrought or unjustified-- far right organizations have a long history of rolling back progressive accomplishments through incremental measures. Otherwise, I cannot comment, as it is outside the scope of both my personal experience and study.
As to what the next four years have in store for anybody, I literally am expectationless this point as we are so deep in 'Theater of the Absurd, George Saunders Novella' turf, who knows.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
> I can think of lots of things that Obama could have done - could still do! - before he leaves office. He could pardon some more deserving people. He could start prosecuting some others. He could release Trump's tax returns. Hell, he could release the intel on ties between Putin and Trump. But this is what he spends his time on?
This is a silly argument. How much time do you think Obama spends writing the text of UN Resolutions? He has people for that. Hell, Samantha Power has people for that, and not people who can just be reassigned for going over pardon applications, releasing tax returns, or declassifying intelligence.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:30 AM on December 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is a silly argument. How much time do you think Obama spends writing the text of UN Resolutions? He has people for that. Hell, Samantha Power has people for that, and not people who can just be reassigned for going over pardon applications, releasing tax returns, or declassifying intelligence.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:30 AM on December 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
Texas is trying. Right now, people I follow are trying to figure out how the hell we make up for the DNC allocating no money at all to rural Texas in particular, or really anywhere we can try to turn Texas Blue outside maybe Austin. That's insane, especially since Texas has nearly as many electoral votes as California and there are scared Texans reaching out to each other from all over the state in my feeds. Much of Texas is feeling like I am: like the federal government was our only protection against a hostile state, and now that fragile protection is arrayed against us a thousandfold.
Texas has produced powerful liberal opposition reliably before and will again, if we can get the support and traction to do so. So has the rest of the South; just look at Rev. Barber. We have good reason to believe that Texans can effect grassroots political change in our state, but we need help. We need support. And all the running away narratives in the world won't change that.
Seriously, I feel people who can't move to a red state or who are terrified to stay in one. I feel that very hard, and I'm making my own hard choices. But if you can't donate feet, money would be real helpful to supporting local change in these embattled states in particular. Money and the will to help us help you. I wish more people outside of these states would help pound that drum instead of championing secession narratives.
posted by sciatrix at 7:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [38 favorites]
Texas has produced powerful liberal opposition reliably before and will again, if we can get the support and traction to do so. So has the rest of the South; just look at Rev. Barber. We have good reason to believe that Texans can effect grassroots political change in our state, but we need help. We need support. And all the running away narratives in the world won't change that.
Seriously, I feel people who can't move to a red state or who are terrified to stay in one. I feel that very hard, and I'm making my own hard choices. But if you can't donate feet, money would be real helpful to supporting local change in these embattled states in particular. Money and the will to help us help you. I wish more people outside of these states would help pound that drum instead of championing secession narratives.
posted by sciatrix at 7:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [38 favorites]
apropos of a few comments in the other thread. A pet peeve of mine: Vlad is not, in fact, short for Vladimir. It's short for Vladislav. The diminutive for Vladimir is Vova. This has been an important service announcement.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 23
Maybe if you are a Russian speaker. The Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian speakers I know use Vlad as a nick-name for both those names.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:32 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 23
Maybe if you are a Russian speaker. The Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian speakers I know use Vlad as a nick-name for both those names.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:32 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Besides, "Vova the Impaler" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:35 AM on December 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:35 AM on December 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
I have a coworker from Serbia named Vladimir who goes by Vlad.
posted by octothorpe at 7:45 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 7:45 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
#notallvlads
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:51 AM on December 24, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:51 AM on December 24, 2016 [34 favorites]
If anyone wants to move, consider moving to one of the states that had smallish margins of defeat.
Probably unrealistic, but I'd like to see Idaho drawn into the PNW orbit. Boise as an alternative to Portland and Seattle.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:52 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Probably unrealistic, but I'd like to see Idaho drawn into the PNW orbit. Boise as an alternative to Portland and Seattle.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:52 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
@matthewjdowd
Between Nixon, Reagan, Bush41, Bush43, they allowed 51 UN resolutions to pass condemning Israel. Just a bit of perspective.
posted by chris24 at 8:00 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Between Nixon, Reagan, Bush41, Bush43, they allowed 51 UN resolutions to pass condemning Israel. Just a bit of perspective.
posted by chris24 at 8:00 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Probably unrealistic, but I'd like to see Idaho drawn into the PNW orbit. Boise as an alternative to Portland and Seattle.
Montana'd probably be a better bet as a theoretical inland PNW pickup. 43% voted for a non-Trump candidate this election compared to 33% in Idaho.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:00 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the numbers, yeah. But Boise is kind of sitting there around 46 degrees North, on the same side of the Rockies, and with enough new arrivals could be a better fit than Montana (Billings? Bozeman?) for people who would otherwise like to live in Seattle, Portland, maybe even SF.
Victory in 2020, brought to you by Zillow.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:06 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Victory in 2020, brought to you by Zillow.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:06 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
But Boise is kind of sitting there around 46 degrees North, on the same side of the Rockies, and with enough new arrivals could be a better fit than Montana (Billings? Bozeman?) for people who would otherwise like to live in Seattle, Portland, maybe even SF.
Missoula and Bozeman are culturally way closer to Portland and Seattle than the eastern MT cities and have already had some of that migration. In my opinion Boise's a tougher sell but anybody moving to Idaho to improve the political situation is definitely doing the lord's work. It's rough out there.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:13 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Missoula and Bozeman are culturally way closer to Portland and Seattle than the eastern MT cities and have already had some of that migration. In my opinion Boise's a tougher sell but anybody moving to Idaho to improve the political situation is definitely doing the lord's work. It's rough out there.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:13 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, it's another morning in America, and I am having my usual bargaining over a cup of coffee. Today it was:
*(calming voice)Look, as soon as there's a national emergency a la Sandy or Katrina, people are going to see Trump is incompetent. They will turn on him when they realize the federal government--*
*(completely fucking panicked voice) HE'S GOING TO NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST TO DISTRACT US FROM HIS FAILURE*
And each day I'm like *usually, in my life, the calm voice is correct--*
*(completely fucking panicked voice) NOT THIS TIME BITCHES SHIT IS REALLY FALLING APART NO I WON'T CALM DOWN OKAY IS IT TIME TO SEE STAR WARS FINE*
posted by angrycat at 8:14 AM on December 24, 2016 [35 favorites]
*(calming voice)Look, as soon as there's a national emergency a la Sandy or Katrina, people are going to see Trump is incompetent. They will turn on him when they realize the federal government--*
*(completely fucking panicked voice) HE'S GOING TO NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST TO DISTRACT US FROM HIS FAILURE*
And each day I'm like *usually, in my life, the calm voice is correct--*
*(completely fucking panicked voice) NOT THIS TIME BITCHES SHIT IS REALLY FALLING APART NO I WON'T CALM DOWN OKAY IS IT TIME TO SEE STAR WARS FINE*
posted by angrycat at 8:14 AM on December 24, 2016 [35 favorites]
Rick Perry is a dumbass, however anyone Trump appointed to that position would be unfit. And Perry is really in there to promote oil interests...I don't think he has any desire to unleash the nukes. Sadly, he might be the best bad choice. If Trump replaced him it might be with someone who did crave Armageddon.
posted by emjaybee at 8:15 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 8:15 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Missoula and Bozeman are culturally way closer to Portland and Seattle than the eastern cities and have already had some of that migration.
I'm sure you're right. I'm pretty much just fantasizing, and Boise's character sheet looks nice. In between SF and Portland in latitude, attractive civic amenities (like the greenbelt), lots of forest, mountain, desert access, decent housing opportunities.
Noticeably missing from all that is any knowledge of the culture OR the job market so yeah.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:18 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm sure you're right. I'm pretty much just fantasizing, and Boise's character sheet looks nice. In between SF and Portland in latitude, attractive civic amenities (like the greenbelt), lots of forest, mountain, desert access, decent housing opportunities.
Noticeably missing from all that is any knowledge of the culture OR the job market so yeah.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:18 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the subject of how change for the sake of change isn't always good, I always think of this fable by Aesop, which I believe is sadly relevant.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, it's another morning in America,
Here I was thinking the morning has been and gone and we're about to enter four years of pitch black.
posted by Talez at 8:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here I was thinking the morning has been and gone and we're about to enter four years of pitch black.
posted by Talez at 8:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perry is really in there to promote oil interests...I don't think he has any desire to unleash the nukes.
It's the President and the military who get to unleash the nukes. The DoE is only responsible for their design and maintenance. However, if anyone doesn't think that design and maintenance is a big part of keeping us safe, please read this recent New Yorker article that I don't think has been linked here yet: World War Three, By Mistake.
Of course, yes, even the Nobel-prize-winning previous SoE Steven Chu probably had little to do with the actual weapons work. The point is that the political position should reflect the seriousness of the mission, and we should be able to make political hay out of a non-serious nominee.
And if we cave in to the nomination of every joker because there might be someone worse the next time? We've lost.
posted by mubba at 8:38 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's the President and the military who get to unleash the nukes. The DoE is only responsible for their design and maintenance. However, if anyone doesn't think that design and maintenance is a big part of keeping us safe, please read this recent New Yorker article that I don't think has been linked here yet: World War Three, By Mistake.
Of course, yes, even the Nobel-prize-winning previous SoE Steven Chu probably had little to do with the actual weapons work. The point is that the political position should reflect the seriousness of the mission, and we should be able to make political hay out of a non-serious nominee.
And if we cave in to the nomination of every joker because there might be someone worse the next time? We've lost.
posted by mubba at 8:38 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
For all we know Trump is like Dick Cheney, living more years than his lifestyle and age would usually give him off of his ego and sheer hatred.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:40 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:40 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
[Morgan Freeman voice] Ernest Hemingway once wrote, "The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.
This is where we live now.
To paraphrase the late great Molly Ivins, if America was one election away from being irrevocably destroyed, it wasn't much of an America to start with. And it remains true however you interpret it. America is neither the Shining City On A Leave-It-To-Beaver Christian Hill that right-wing True Believers think it is, nor the Woke Juggernaut of Acceptance and Tolerance and Coexistance that we'd hoped it was becoming. It is a land of contrasts. It is a land of pockets of thought in oceans of apathy. And it is a land where people just don't care unless you give them a good reason why they should care.
Most Americans do not vote unless something smacks them across the face and says "look, dumbass, this affects you or your wallet or your family or your close friends or your neighbors DIRECTLY." This is your task. Free your friends and family from Two Minutes Hate Facebook walls of 'news' and teach them how to really look at their world. Point out to them when they're being screwed. Let them realize that this really ISN'T a clash between Good God-Fearing American Patriots and Greedy Lazy Drug-Addicted Welfare Cheats -- and that they have a lot more in common with Those People than with the politicians whom they just voted for. And let them know that the attitude of "I'll do without X as long as Those People don't get X either" is completely unacceptable.
This election was inclusion -- racially, sexually, religiously, economically -- versus exclusion, the notion that Only The Privileged Should Count. Exclusion won. But that does not mean that there are fewer of us than there are of them. It means that the Republican mantra -- Government is the problem, government is never the solution, government is always the problem -- resonated louder than what the Dems brought to the table this year. We are all part of changing that.
posted by delfin at 8:40 AM on December 24, 2016 [46 favorites]
This is where we live now.
To paraphrase the late great Molly Ivins, if America was one election away from being irrevocably destroyed, it wasn't much of an America to start with. And it remains true however you interpret it. America is neither the Shining City On A Leave-It-To-Beaver Christian Hill that right-wing True Believers think it is, nor the Woke Juggernaut of Acceptance and Tolerance and Coexistance that we'd hoped it was becoming. It is a land of contrasts. It is a land of pockets of thought in oceans of apathy. And it is a land where people just don't care unless you give them a good reason why they should care.
Most Americans do not vote unless something smacks them across the face and says "look, dumbass, this affects you or your wallet or your family or your close friends or your neighbors DIRECTLY." This is your task. Free your friends and family from Two Minutes Hate Facebook walls of 'news' and teach them how to really look at their world. Point out to them when they're being screwed. Let them realize that this really ISN'T a clash between Good God-Fearing American Patriots and Greedy Lazy Drug-Addicted Welfare Cheats -- and that they have a lot more in common with Those People than with the politicians whom they just voted for. And let them know that the attitude of "I'll do without X as long as Those People don't get X either" is completely unacceptable.
This election was inclusion -- racially, sexually, religiously, economically -- versus exclusion, the notion that Only The Privileged Should Count. Exclusion won. But that does not mean that there are fewer of us than there are of them. It means that the Republican mantra -- Government is the problem, government is never the solution, government is always the problem -- resonated louder than what the Dems brought to the table this year. We are all part of changing that.
posted by delfin at 8:40 AM on December 24, 2016 [46 favorites]
If people aren't worried about Rick Perry at DOE, then they should read up about the 2014 incident at the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant and imagine what could be in store for us under a Republican government that likes to cut corners.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:47 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:47 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
The most horrifying thing is that I fear no amount of incompetence, disasters, buffoonery, or blatant bigotry could turn a significant part of the country away from Trump, and even fewer to the Democrats.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:51 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:51 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Since Clinton's vote count in part of the title, I think it is important to expand on the results. Here is Cook's Political Report spreadsheet (Google Docs). Bottom line is that 5.7% voted third party in a winner-take-all election. This act is not psychologically neutral, and is functionally the same as being undecided, but having made the decision to vote. Voting third party will never change our system into multi-parties, it will simply produce a spoiled election. In theory, these ballots should have only two candidates, and a clear majority of voters, but run-offs are expensive and parties like that power. The point is that we are stuck with a certain process and need to make strategic moves forward. The easiest change is to eliminate the incentive to have third parties try to raise money by reaching 5% on a federal ballot. The government has no business running an election spoiler operation. Perhaps Obama should issue his last executive order to highlight the issue, by arranging the ballot itself to donate treasury election funds, to listed parties directly (as currently done on a tax return), and not indirectly by wasting a vote.
posted by Brian B. at 8:59 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 8:59 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
As I see it, a significant part of the country is already anti Trump and even pro Democrat. Remember, if you look at the map by counties and even by proportions, we aren't a red nation with blue coasts. We are a purple nation. And you never know where you'll find an ally if you listen, drum up the emotional reminders to step up and find enthusiasm, and point out where the morality of history lies.
If you have working class white folks who are scared of fat cat government... Hm. Do you know if any of them have heard of Utah Phillips? Several of his live album recordings have bits at the beginning that might appeal to a lot of folks who are motivated by ignorance and fear rather than outright hatred.
And you don't get too much more democratic than a goddamn Wobbly. But it's been long enough that I figure, well... He's an old white dude who had ideas about how to make America great. It's worth a shot.
posted by sciatrix at 9:01 AM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
If you have working class white folks who are scared of fat cat government... Hm. Do you know if any of them have heard of Utah Phillips? Several of his live album recordings have bits at the beginning that might appeal to a lot of folks who are motivated by ignorance and fear rather than outright hatred.
And you don't get too much more democratic than a goddamn Wobbly. But it's been long enough that I figure, well... He's an old white dude who had ideas about how to make America great. It's worth a shot.
posted by sciatrix at 9:01 AM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
It's not that I'm ok with Perry it's that I don't think we have anyone better on offer. Is there any possible Trump appointee that wouldn't be a shitshow?
posted by emjaybee at 9:03 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 9:03 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
If people aren't worried about Rick Perry at DOE, then they should read up about the 2014 incident at the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant and imagine what could be in store for us under a Republican government that likes to cut corners.
Or the West Fertilizer Company explosion.
posted by Candleman at 9:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Or the West Fertilizer Company explosion.
"The fire and explosion at West Fertilizer was preventable. It should never have occurred. It resulted from the failure of a company to take the necessary steps to avert a preventable fire and explosion and from the inability of federal, state and local regulatory agencies to identify a serious hazard and correct it."Oops.
posted by Candleman at 9:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
In a follow up to Chris24's map above, The Upshot (NYT) estimates suggest that Mrs. Clinton really might have become the first Democrat to win white voters with a college degree (although it is very possible that Mr. Obama did so in 2008 as well).
posted by GhostintheMachine at 9:07 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by GhostintheMachine at 9:07 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Don't worry, the Obama administration has just put out a new rule requiring better risk management plans (RMPs) at industrial facilities to prevent disasters like the West explosion in the future! Everything is....ah, hell.
(Paywalled link but the headline is enough.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:19 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
(Paywalled link but the headline is enough.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:19 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
The final report on the explosion is chilling.
(Family Owned Business, Run down storage area constructed in the 1960's, jury-rigged PVC ammonia nitrate distribution system, 160t of ammonia nitrate onsite, multiple citations, multiple employee complaints about cleanliness, damning onsite photography predating the explosion)
If so many innocent people didn't die horrible, unjust deaths in service of someone else's greed and sheer laziness, one could almost grimace at the inevitability of it all. Stunned emptiness will have to suffice.
posted by mrdaneri at 9:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
(Family Owned Business, Run down storage area constructed in the 1960's, jury-rigged PVC ammonia nitrate distribution system, 160t of ammonia nitrate onsite, multiple citations, multiple employee complaints about cleanliness, damning onsite photography predating the explosion)
If so many innocent people didn't die horrible, unjust deaths in service of someone else's greed and sheer laziness, one could almost grimace at the inevitability of it all. Stunned emptiness will have to suffice.
posted by mrdaneri at 9:25 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
so many innocent people didn't die horrible, unjust deaths in service of someone else's greed and sheer laziness
That's just market correction, dude
(it's joke or cry, sorry)
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:29 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's just market correction, dude
(it's joke or cry, sorry)
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:29 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
When I was younger, I never understood why a lot of businessmen so consistently opposed regulations that protected their employees and customers. I thought it was obviously in their interest that their customers and workers wouldn't get sick or die or suffer, because that would affect their business.
Then I realized that they don't care about people, only how much money they provide, and they know a lot of people have no choice but to buy from and work for them no matter what they do.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:41 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Then I realized that they don't care about people, only how much money they provide, and they know a lot of people have no choice but to buy from and work for them no matter what they do.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:41 AM on December 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm looking forwards to the revelation in 2019 that Jimmy Johns' and Chipolte both have been using pork products sourced from some sort of stem-cell-line cloned porcine horror grown in vast oinking, squealing sheds of horror in the midwest somewhere. It will be revealed to be some sort of well, known trade secret since about 1993.
'Oh, we harvests the lil' squeakers with a pitchfork, 'fore the eyes grows out!' a salt-of-the-earth farmer will say on a TED talk.
posted by mrdaneri at 9:46 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
'Oh, we harvests the lil' squeakers with a pitchfork, 'fore the eyes grows out!' a salt-of-the-earth farmer will say on a TED talk.
posted by mrdaneri at 9:46 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
My perspective on supporting religious schools comes in part from an experience years back. Although we grew up poor, after my father died our family received Social Security survivor benefits to attend a private Christian high school. During his time there, he converted to Mormonism. They wanted to kick him out of the school because Mormonism was not Christianity. My brother was called into a meeting with the principal and he was certain he could defend his new faith. I came along for moral support, but on his request waited outside. While waiting the volleyball coach came up to me and asked about my faith. I told her Catholic. She was convinced that if she didn't convert me before I left, I stood a good chance of going to hell.
My brother was kicked out.
These are the sorts of people who are going to get taxpayer dollars. We are subsidizing religious intolerance.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:54 AM on December 24, 2016 [35 favorites]
My brother was kicked out.
These are the sorts of people who are going to get taxpayer dollars. We are subsidizing religious intolerance.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:54 AM on December 24, 2016 [35 favorites]
Josh Marshall, TPM: Thoughts on The UN Resolution
But the whole drama confirms what I believe is the overriding reality of the current situation, which is that America's hyper-support of Israel and (by default) the Israeli settlement project has made the US into a dangerous enabler of Israel's own self-destructive behavior. There is no longterm solution to the conflict other than some form of partition of the land. This is dictated by an iron grip of demography and ideology. You can either have partition, a binational state or a state in which Jews and a portion of the Arab population (those who are currently citizens of Israel) have political rights and the majority of Arabs (those who now live in the territories) do not. You can call that last option anything you want. But the countries of the world will never and should never accept it. [...]posted by tonycpsu at 9:56 AM on December 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
The US's hyper-protection, not only from genuine threats (which I strongly support) but even from symbolic criticism, has simply enabled Israel's self-destructive behavior, allowed the Israeli political nation to ignore these realities and pretend that somehow they'll go away. [...]
Friends tell friends the truth. Friends don't enable self-destructive behavior. Even if you put morality and values entirely to the side, the current trajectory of West Bank settlement has no good outcome for Israel.
Vlad vs. Vova is the new Sitting vs. Standing
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:56 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:56 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
On an earlier note from thread: it looks like the Rockettes are no longer being threatened with firing if they don't perform for Trump.
posted by Archelaus at 9:57 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 9:57 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
...it looks like the Rockettes are no longer being threatened with firing if they don't perform for Trump.
The last I heard, that was only true for the part-time dancers. Have they extended it to the full-time crew?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:01 AM on December 24, 2016
The last I heard, that was only true for the part-time dancers. Have they extended it to the full-time crew?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:01 AM on December 24, 2016
On an earlier note from thread: it looks like the Rockettes are no longer being threatened with firing if they don't perform for Trump.
That is a meaningless statement. Their individual contracts are renewed annually. Nobody would get fired. They simply could be blacklisted and never hired again.
On another note Jamil Smith suggests that the Rockettes perform in pantsuits.
posted by JackFlash at 10:03 AM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
That is a meaningless statement. Their individual contracts are renewed annually. Nobody would get fired. They simply could be blacklisted and never hired again.
On another note Jamil Smith suggests that the Rockettes perform in pantsuits.
posted by JackFlash at 10:03 AM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
I was just thinking:
Donald Trump.
Carl Paladino.
Robert Durst is the third least psychotic New York real estate billionaire.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Donald Trump.
Carl Paladino.
Robert Durst is the third least psychotic New York real estate billionaire.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Have they extended it to the full-time crew?
They have. But as JackFlash points out, the real danger now is blacklisting.
posted by chris24 at 10:06 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
They have. But as JackFlash points out, the real danger now is blacklisting.
posted by chris24 at 10:06 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Y'know, I was hoping to have brought -good- news that was an improvement on things with that, but okay, sure. Blacklisting. Great.
Link for updated news
There's what I was pulling from. It looks a lot more optimistic to me than you guys are going with, but I get the need. Carry on.
posted by Archelaus at 10:08 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Link for updated news
There's what I was pulling from. It looks a lot more optimistic to me than you guys are going with, but I get the need. Carry on.
posted by Archelaus at 10:08 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dammit, that first link is broken. Here's where that was meant to go. Story about how working folks ought to figure out who to be angry at and everything.
I gotta say, I do think it's optimistic that the union who pushed the full-time dancers to perform so openly got so much damn blowback. It makes me think we're mobilizing and that people are channeling their anger into actually doing things.
posted by sciatrix at 10:09 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I gotta say, I do think it's optimistic that the union who pushed the full-time dancers to perform so openly got so much damn blowback. It makes me think we're mobilizing and that people are channeling their anger into actually doing things.
posted by sciatrix at 10:09 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
apropos of a few comments in the other thread. A pet peeve of mine: Vlad is not, in fact, short for Vladimir. It's short for Vladislav. The diminutive for Vladimir is Vova. This has been an important service announcement.
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 23
Maybe if you are a Russian speaker. The Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian speakers I know use Vlad as a nick-name for both those names.
Also Vlad is a full name in it's own right, 'Vlad Tepeš' ( that's 'Vlad The Impaler' )
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:23 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 23
Maybe if you are a Russian speaker. The Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian speakers I know use Vlad as a nick-name for both those names.
Also Vlad is a full name in it's own right, 'Vlad Tepeš' ( that's 'Vlad The Impaler' )
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:23 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. If folks want to answer specifically about Obama vs Thatcher on global trade with China, ok, but getting into an overall thing about whether they're different is really taking us pretty far afield and into weird seems-like-misunderstanding-to-make-a-point territory, and then into a metadiscussion about whether it's plausible to really ask, etc, which is all a derail we can do without.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:24 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:24 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
.@realDonaldTrump I made this sir, can we please not have a nuclear war. Merry Christmas.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump considers move to update nuclear arsenal, as he heard from Piers Morgan that the Arsenal typically fails around Christmas.
posted by Talez at 10:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Talez at 10:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
US begins asking foreign travelers for social media accounts upon entry: Border Security started asking travelers coming into the country on Tuesday to voluntarily provide their Facebook, Twitter and other social media accounts, Politico first reported. When individuals apply for visa waivers, they’re prompted with the option to include their accounts on the aforementioned platforms and Google+, Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:34 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:34 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Um…
@TrumpInaugural
When President Harrison passed, Vice President John Tyler declared himself president. #TrumpInaugural #MAGA
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:43 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
@TrumpInaugural
When President Harrison passed, Vice President John Tyler declared himself president. #TrumpInaugural #MAGA
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:43 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump is dissolving the Trump Foundation.
Why go small when you have the US Treasury to loot.
posted by chris24 at 10:44 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why go small when you have the US Treasury to loot.
posted by chris24 at 10:44 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm going to wfh on Inauguration Day. There's no way the Metro can handle the crowds to begin with and while I work 19 and L and not _too_ close to the White House, it's close enough.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 10:48 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 10:48 AM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is the FBI trolling Trump?
@FBI:
Happy holidays from the #FBI
[image]
posted by chris24 at 10:48 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
@FBI:
Happy holidays from the #FBI
[image]
posted by chris24 at 10:48 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump is dissolving the Trump Foundation.
That's what I read on Twitter, but I think we need a new verb tense to describe things aides say Trump said he is definitely probably planning to do without verification.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:53 AM on December 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
That's what I read on Twitter, but I think we need a new verb tense to describe things aides say Trump said he is definitely probably planning to do without verification.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:53 AM on December 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Oh I'm sure it's trumpening. I mean happening.
* Not sure at all. Very doubtful in fact.
posted by chris24 at 10:54 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
* Not sure at all. Very doubtful in fact.
posted by chris24 at 10:54 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
So the official 58th Inauguration Committee's twitter account tweeted something... interesting. Mike, are you trying to tell us something?
@TrumpInaugural:
When President Harrison passed, Vice President John Tyler declared himself president. #TrumpInaugural #MAGA [image]
posted by chris24 at 11:01 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
@TrumpInaugural:
When President Harrison passed, Vice President John Tyler declared himself president. #TrumpInaugural #MAGA [image]
posted by chris24 at 11:01 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
What the Drug War Could Look Like Under President Trump: "With Trump in the White House and Sessions in the Justice Department ... it's hard to be optimistic," says Drug Policy Alliance head
posted by homunculus at 11:02 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 11:02 AM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
And yesterday's tweet.
@TrumpInaugural:
Our ninth president, William Henry Harrison served the shortest presidential term in history at just 32 days. #MAGA #TrumpInaugural [image]
posted by chris24 at 11:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
@TrumpInaugural:
Our ninth president, William Henry Harrison served the shortest presidential term in history at just 32 days. #MAGA #TrumpInaugural [image]
posted by chris24 at 11:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here is an example of a white woman harassing two Latina women in a Kentucky shopping mall... and a community rallying together to take a stand about what is acceptable within its borders, to provide restitution for the victims of a racist rant, and to enforce a tangible consequence for the woman who felt entitled to attack other people.
This is laudable. It's regrettable that the white woman felt emboldened to vomit bigotry at other people in her community. It is heartening that the other members of Louisville chose to take action and demonstrate what the community stands for and whose rights to move freely about their community should be protected. It's good to remember that actions matter.
posted by sciatrix at 11:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [40 favorites]
This is laudable. It's regrettable that the white woman felt emboldened to vomit bigotry at other people in her community. It is heartening that the other members of Louisville chose to take action and demonstrate what the community stands for and whose rights to move freely about their community should be protected. It's good to remember that actions matter.
posted by sciatrix at 11:05 AM on December 24, 2016 [40 favorites]
That Inauguration Twitter account is tweeting one Presidential fact per day, and there's dick-all else you can say about Harrison's tenure.
posted by Etrigan at 11:17 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 11:17 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
They have 35 more presidents after Harrison and only 27 days until inauguration. Seems odd to spend two days on Harrison, given his situation.
posted by chris24 at 11:23 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 11:23 AM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
The WaPo Christmas Carol parody is chilling
I still think comparing Trump to Scrooge is unfair to Scrooge. Even ignoring Scrooge's change of heart, Dickens also tells us that he was at least honest.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
I still think comparing Trump to Scrooge is unfair to Scrooge. Even ignoring Scrooge's change of heart, Dickens also tells us that he was at least honest.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:31 AM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
Trump is dissolving the Trump Foundation.
That's impossible! How the kleptocrat maintain control without the bureaucracy?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:40 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's impossible! How the kleptocrat maintain control without the bureaucracy?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:40 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd love to be a fly on the wall during the contract renegotiation meetings with the 11 partner nations...
Why be a fly when you can be a russian hacker instead?
posted by srboisvert at 11:51 AM on December 24, 2016
Why be a fly when you can be a russian hacker instead?
posted by srboisvert at 11:51 AM on December 24, 2016
From NY AG spokesperson @amyspitalnick:
.@Fahrenthold @realDonaldTrump Foundation still under investigation by @AGSchneiderman, cannot legally dissolve until investigation complete
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:53 AM on December 24, 2016 [31 favorites]
.@Fahrenthold @realDonaldTrump Foundation still under investigation by @AGSchneiderman, cannot legally dissolve until investigation complete
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:53 AM on December 24, 2016 [31 favorites]
So it's dissolving not because it's a conflict of interest and both legally and ethically the right thing to do, but instead to avoid investigation and penalty.
It's the firehose of scandal approach -- there's so much that you can't fixate on any one thing, so you just feel like giving up.
posted by mochapickle at 12:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's the firehose of scandal approach -- there's so much that you can't fixate on any one thing, so you just feel like giving up.
posted by mochapickle at 12:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Oh I gave up a long time ago.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:09 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 12:09 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's the firehose of scandal approach -- there's so much that you can't fixate on any one thing, so you just feel like giving up.
I wish it weren't such an effective strategy.
posted by Superplin at 12:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
I wish it weren't such an effective strategy.
posted by Superplin at 12:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
The zebra stripes of infamy.
posted by Coventry at 12:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 12:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the subject of both sides-ism, I had a recent, bitter conversation with one of my moderate friends who believes Hillary would have been as bad as Trump as far as enriching herself and vindictiveness. She said that Hillary set the IRS on someone because she didn't like them. I hadn't heard this story before - is it right-wing propaganda?
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:34 PM on December 24, 2016
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:34 PM on December 24, 2016
To clarify, I suspect it is, but it isn't a story I've encountered in the news or anywhere else, and there's enough controversy around Hillary even now that it was hard to find and debunk every rumor and false story around her that the right stirred up.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:48 PM on December 24, 2016
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:48 PM on December 24, 2016
without referencing anything, or even googling it i can definitively say that yes, it is right wing propaganda.
posted by localhuman at 12:48 PM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by localhuman at 12:48 PM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
She said that Hillary set the IRS on someone because she didn't like them. I hadn't heard this story before - is it right-wing propaganda?
It's propaganda. Hills usually just personally murders her enemies.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [33 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
.@NBCNews purposely left out this part of my nuclear qoute: "until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes." Dishonest!
BUT THAT'S THE PART WHERE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
.@NBCNews purposely left out this part of my nuclear qoute: "until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes." Dishonest!
BUT THAT'S THE PART WHERE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
Doesn't the President have an official Twitter? I'm not even sure whether Trump will use his or the official POTUS one post-inauguration.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:05 PM on December 24, 2016
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:05 PM on December 24, 2016
Also it's good to know that Trump celebrates Christmas Eve like I did as a kid, by attacking media coverage of my cryptic potentially-civilization-ending outbursts
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
It's effing Christmas Eve and the PEOTUS is still tweeting about nuclear weapons. Okay.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Childproof lock added to White House nuclear launch button [fake but should be real]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:08 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:08 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
If this all turns out to be some fucked up viral campaign for Weird Al's Christmas at Ground Zero.
posted by Talez at 1:09 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Talez at 1:09 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's propaganda.
I hope we have a better way to combat misinformation and propaganda like this when we pick a 2020 candidate, but no matter who we choose I suspect they'll be able to "dig up" a story about how they totally ate a baby that one time, honest.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:09 PM on December 24, 2016
I hope we have a better way to combat misinformation and propaganda like this when we pick a 2020 candidate, but no matter who we choose I suspect they'll be able to "dig up" a story about how they totally ate a baby that one time, honest.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:09 PM on December 24, 2016
Doesn't the President have an official Twitter? I'm not even sure whether Trump will use his or the official POTUS one post-inauguration.
Obama has an official @POTUS account that will transfer to Trump on Jan 20th, although who knows if he'll actually use it.
posted by photo guy at 1:16 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Obama has an official @POTUS account that will transfer to Trump on Jan 20th, although who knows if he'll actually use it.
posted by photo guy at 1:16 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
What better a platform to freak out at SNL from and threaten to nuke the coasts?
posted by Artw at 1:21 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:21 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Look, until the world comes to its senses regarding nuclear proliferation, we're gonna need a shit-ton more nukes
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:27 PM on December 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:27 PM on December 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
.@NBCNews purposely left out this part of my nuclear qoute: "until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes." Dishonest!
Third sentence of said article:
posted by chris24 at 1:40 PM on December 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
.@NBCNews purposely left out this part of my nuclear qoute: "until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes." Dishonest!
Third sentence of said article:
Trump stunned nuclear experts Thursday by proclaiming in a tweet that "the United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes."I guess reading past the headline was too much for Donnie.
posted by chris24 at 1:40 PM on December 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
Y kant Doni read
posted by kirkaracha at 1:53 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:53 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
So, catching up on a few things after 2k comments. Firstly, our Vladimir, bless his shirtless heartless self, went from being a KGB operative to being the wealthiest man on earth by stripping communist resources away from the people and state and selling them to himself and his buddies. Of fucking course the republicans love him. Geezuz, that's what they masturbate to while they suck the cocks of the vampire squid helming the Goldman Trump takeover.
A snide aside, I cannot help but look at the trumps and think, "Do you even rich, bro?" Because what the fuck, coach class on JetBlue, shopping at Saks, eating cold chicken takeout, wearing trimmings from the dog groomer as hair, I mean, what the ever living fuck? A charter flight would cost insignificant amounts more than four coach tickets, who the fuck buys off the rack if you have a billion dollars and you live in the garment and design capitol of the US, and why has nobody rescued that poor Pomeranian.
Re Texas and the Dems, my rural district voted for Clinton by almost 500 votes, iirc. The dems didn't even have any candidates opposing important elections. Choices were republicans, teahadists, and bugfuck crazies.
Re, end of the world, damn I fucking hope not. A ray of hope, in the neighborhood next to ours, where a lot of Mexican families live, there was a fire that damaged a couple of houses. Within hours of the fires going out, there was a constant parade of cars of townsfolk coming from all over to offer places to stay, and bring presents for the kids. I called the fire station to ask if they knew what the family needed, and they said the family was so overwhelmed with assistance that they were sending things to the food pantry and churches to be distributed to other families in need. Keep in mind, this is an area that was devastated by tornadoes and storms this spring. Most of the town, myself included, are still rebuilding. But pretty much as soon as people heard the fire was bad, a big chunk of people tried to help.
It's hard to believe, but there are helpers. Thank you, my metafilter friends and family, for being here, for being my helper, my shoulder, my shouting wall, my loadbearer when I lost hope. To borrow a Christmas phrase, gods bless us, every one.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [56 favorites]
A snide aside, I cannot help but look at the trumps and think, "Do you even rich, bro?" Because what the fuck, coach class on JetBlue, shopping at Saks, eating cold chicken takeout, wearing trimmings from the dog groomer as hair, I mean, what the ever living fuck? A charter flight would cost insignificant amounts more than four coach tickets, who the fuck buys off the rack if you have a billion dollars and you live in the garment and design capitol of the US, and why has nobody rescued that poor Pomeranian.
Re Texas and the Dems, my rural district voted for Clinton by almost 500 votes, iirc. The dems didn't even have any candidates opposing important elections. Choices were republicans, teahadists, and bugfuck crazies.
Re, end of the world, damn I fucking hope not. A ray of hope, in the neighborhood next to ours, where a lot of Mexican families live, there was a fire that damaged a couple of houses. Within hours of the fires going out, there was a constant parade of cars of townsfolk coming from all over to offer places to stay, and bring presents for the kids. I called the fire station to ask if they knew what the family needed, and they said the family was so overwhelmed with assistance that they were sending things to the food pantry and churches to be distributed to other families in need. Keep in mind, this is an area that was devastated by tornadoes and storms this spring. Most of the town, myself included, are still rebuilding. But pretty much as soon as people heard the fire was bad, a big chunk of people tried to help.
It's hard to believe, but there are helpers. Thank you, my metafilter friends and family, for being here, for being my helper, my shoulder, my shouting wall, my loadbearer when I lost hope. To borrow a Christmas phrase, gods bless us, every one.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [56 favorites]
Y kant Doni read
Flagged for ruining an already shitty memory.
posted by Etrigan at 2:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Flagged for ruining an already shitty memory.
posted by Etrigan at 2:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump's ties to Putin actually make me miss the foreign policy acumen of Sarah Palin.
posted by stet at 2:18 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by stet at 2:18 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Annika Cicada there are a lot of Texans sticking around and willing to fight for you. I'm stuck in Texas for economic reasons (I own property that isn't worth much but gives me a place to live mortgage and rent free.) But I also love my home state, and think it's worth fighting for. I think a lot of Texans who have been waiting for demographics to change our state politics have woken up and are willing to do the work at the local and state level. Pantsuit Republic candidates have already won seats since the election on school boards and city councils. I have hope.
posted by threeturtles at 2:21 PM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by threeturtles at 2:21 PM on December 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
Trump's ties to Putin actually make me miss the foreign policy acumen of Sarah Palin.
I thought she was supposed to be protecting us from the rising head of Putin! What happened?
posted by SisterHavana at 2:35 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I thought she was supposed to be protecting us from the rising head of Putin! What happened?
posted by SisterHavana at 2:35 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Breaking news: Trump aide Jason Miller says he won't go into White House 2 days after being announced as comms director: “After spending this past week with my family, the most amount of time I have been able to spend with them since March 2015, it is clear they need to be my top priority right now and this is not the right time to start a new job as demanding as White House communications director,” Miller said. "My wife and I are also excited about the arrival of our second daughter in January, and I need to put them in front of my career."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:00 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:00 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
All I have to say is that the thought of the Republican Party allying itself with Russia only a little after the Cold War is bitterly ironic. And they like to play themselves off as the patriotic party.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:01 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:01 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I apologize if this isn't the most appropriate place to post this, but it echoes so many of the most dire predictions and concerns I've seen brought up in these threads, and I'm incredibly disturbed right now. The guy who publishes The Daily Stormer announced he's bringing together 200 armed neo-Nazis for an open carry "march against Jews" who are protesting Richard Spencer's residence/family in Montana.
‘We can march through town carrying high-powered rifles’: Neo-Nazi plans march against Montana Jews
Ramping up their attacks on the a Montana town where white supremacist Richard Spencer lives part of the year, neo-Nazis are planning an armed march down main street in January, reports Fox-Montana.
The small town of Whitefish has become a hub of turmoil with the rise of Spencer whose mother owns a business in the downtown district. While Sherry Spencer doesn’t share his son’s white separatist beliefs, she has been taking heat and facing financial setbacks from locals because she allows him to use her address as the headquarters for his deceptively named National Policy Institute.
Previously Neo-Nazis fans of Spencer have limited their threats to the people of Whitefish by using social media, however Andrew Anglin, who runs The Daily Stormer website now says he plans to lead a march in the town aimed at Jews in the community.
“We are planning an armed protest in Whitefish,” Anglin wrote. “Montana has extremely liberal open carry laws, so my lawyer is telling me we can easily march through the center of the town carrying high-powered rifles. I myself am planning on being there to lead the protest, which has been dubbed ‘March on Whitefish.’”
According to Anglin, he claims he will be busing in “skinheads from the Bay Area,” adding, “Currently, my guys say we are going to be able to put together about 200 people to participate in the march, which will be against Jews, Jewish businesses and everyone who supports either.”
“We have to stand up to these people, and we have to force an apology,” The Forward reports Anglin wrote. “This will be an absolutely massive victory for our cause. We have never done this before.”
According to local police, they have received no information on the march which is tentatively scheduled for the second week in January.
Prior to the 2016 presidential election, Anglin claimed that “Virtually every alt-right Nazi I know is volunteering for the Trump campaign.”
posted by prosopagnosia at 3:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
‘We can march through town carrying high-powered rifles’: Neo-Nazi plans march against Montana Jews
Ramping up their attacks on the a Montana town where white supremacist Richard Spencer lives part of the year, neo-Nazis are planning an armed march down main street in January, reports Fox-Montana.
The small town of Whitefish has become a hub of turmoil with the rise of Spencer whose mother owns a business in the downtown district. While Sherry Spencer doesn’t share his son’s white separatist beliefs, she has been taking heat and facing financial setbacks from locals because she allows him to use her address as the headquarters for his deceptively named National Policy Institute.
Previously Neo-Nazis fans of Spencer have limited their threats to the people of Whitefish by using social media, however Andrew Anglin, who runs The Daily Stormer website now says he plans to lead a march in the town aimed at Jews in the community.
“We are planning an armed protest in Whitefish,” Anglin wrote. “Montana has extremely liberal open carry laws, so my lawyer is telling me we can easily march through the center of the town carrying high-powered rifles. I myself am planning on being there to lead the protest, which has been dubbed ‘March on Whitefish.’”
According to Anglin, he claims he will be busing in “skinheads from the Bay Area,” adding, “Currently, my guys say we are going to be able to put together about 200 people to participate in the march, which will be against Jews, Jewish businesses and everyone who supports either.”
“We have to stand up to these people, and we have to force an apology,” The Forward reports Anglin wrote. “This will be an absolutely massive victory for our cause. We have never done this before.”
According to local police, they have received no information on the march which is tentatively scheduled for the second week in January.
Prior to the 2016 presidential election, Anglin claimed that “Virtually every alt-right Nazi I know is volunteering for the Trump campaign.”
posted by prosopagnosia at 3:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile, Trump wishes us a Happy Hanukkah [real]
posted by box at 3:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 3:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
‘We can march through town carrying high-powered rifles’: Neo-Nazi plans march against Montana Jews'
It's not yet clear how serious these claims are: Anglin's almost as much of a troll as he is a Nazi. In any case, I'm one of maybe 100-200 Jews in the sparsely-populated corner of Montana that they're targeting. Nobody's sent me a photo of my relatives in a gas chamber yet but it won't surprise me when it happens. What would surprise me is if they succeed in terrorizing the populace. And if they step up the level of violence from their current one (only harassing phone calls and social media so far) I think they'll be surprised at the type and intensity of resistance that they are going to face from locals.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:12 PM on December 24, 2016 [25 favorites]
It's not yet clear how serious these claims are: Anglin's almost as much of a troll as he is a Nazi. In any case, I'm one of maybe 100-200 Jews in the sparsely-populated corner of Montana that they're targeting. Nobody's sent me a photo of my relatives in a gas chamber yet but it won't surprise me when it happens. What would surprise me is if they succeed in terrorizing the populace. And if they step up the level of violence from their current one (only harassing phone calls and social media so far) I think they'll be surprised at the type and intensity of resistance that they are going to face from locals.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:12 PM on December 24, 2016 [25 favorites]
Obama signed the Countering Foreign Propaganda and Disinformation Act into law yesterday. Over the long haul, the most effective counter would probably be for the US itself to abandon the dissemination of propaganda and disinformation, but I don't think that's what they mean.
posted by Coventry at 3:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 3:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dear god that's horrible, prosopagnosia. Let's hope that the townspeople get support from the entire country so that the Nazis are shamed into retreating. I think the vast majority of Americans are horrified by anti Semitic behavior and it is only a tiny group of jerks emboldened by Trump's election who are being so nasty. Let us hope they get shut down quickly and thoroughly.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:21 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:21 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the subject of how change for the sake of change isn't always good, I always think of this fable by Aesop, which I believe is sadly relevant.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:28 AM on December 24 [has favorites +] [!]
From the Wikipedia entry you linked:
A democratic people have elected
King Log, King Stork, King Log, King Stork again.
Because I like a wide and silent pond
I voted Log. That party was defeated.
-- James K. Baxter
<sob>
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:32 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:28 AM on December 24 [has favorites +] [!]
From the Wikipedia entry you linked:
A democratic people have elected
King Log, King Stork, King Log, King Stork again.
Because I like a wide and silent pond
I voted Log. That party was defeated.
-- James K. Baxter
<sob>
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:32 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
the most effective counter would probably be for the US itself to abandon the dissemination of propaganda and disinformation
Unfortunately, it's in the interests of the people currently in power to continue the dissemination of propaganda and disinformation - Fox alone has turned itself into a Trump propaganda network very quickly. The only thing I can think of to counter it is fact-checking, but that didn't help this year, and I'm not really sure what could counter a campaign like the one the Republicans put in place.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:37 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, it's in the interests of the people currently in power to continue the dissemination of propaganda and disinformation - Fox alone has turned itself into a Trump propaganda network very quickly. The only thing I can think of to counter it is fact-checking, but that didn't help this year, and I'm not really sure what could counter a campaign like the one the Republicans put in place.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:37 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump aide Jason Miller says he won't go into White House 2 days after being announced as comms director
I guess it's nice that Trump's administration is at least honoring the long tradition of citing family as a reason to leave politics.
I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact Miller realized after the nuke tweets that he'd spend the next four years with Trump contradicting everything he said.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:38 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
I guess it's nice that Trump's administration is at least honoring the long tradition of citing family as a reason to leave politics.
I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact Miller realized after the nuke tweets that he'd spend the next four years with Trump contradicting everything he said.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:38 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact Miller realized after the nuke tweets that he'd spend the next four years with Trump contradicting everything he said.
In my imagination he finally got home and someone in is family was all 'wtf are you doing? No. Just no. Stop. Or consequences buddy.
posted by Jalliah at 3:49 PM on December 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately, there's a reason why the Gish Gallop is such a successful technique among creationists and their ilk - telling a lie, or a lot of lies, requires less work than telling the truth and no respect for for fairness or research.
I'm thinking of people like my friends, who believe what they're told because they simply "know" both candidates were bad. They can't be budged. I've tried, multiple times, and they just say they won't change their minds.
I'm very ashamed to say that, while I voted for Hillary proudly, I was unable to convince many of my friends to, and part of why was because they were able to produce stories and pseudofacts that I couldn't debunk and because they just "didn't trust her".
(The reason I asked after that particular story was because I was looking for a source to debunk it - my friend didn't give a name and it had the stink of a malicious rumor. I didn't mean to imply I believed it in any way - I didn't, and I apologize if it came off as if I did.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:49 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm thinking of people like my friends, who believe what they're told because they simply "know" both candidates were bad. They can't be budged. I've tried, multiple times, and they just say they won't change their minds.
I'm very ashamed to say that, while I voted for Hillary proudly, I was unable to convince many of my friends to, and part of why was because they were able to produce stories and pseudofacts that I couldn't debunk and because they just "didn't trust her".
(The reason I asked after that particular story was because I was looking for a source to debunk it - my friend didn't give a name and it had the stink of a malicious rumor. I didn't mean to imply I believed it in any way - I didn't, and I apologize if it came off as if I did.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:49 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
IBM employees launch petition protesting cooperation with Donald Trump
posted by Coventry at 4:00 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 4:00 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Never mind:
Update: December 19, 2016posted by Coventry at 4:04 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
This post has been updated to reflect the fact that IBM has said it will not participate in the creation of a national Muslim registry.
One would hope they learned from the first time.
posted by thelonius at 4:09 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 4:09 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
(Background: IBM and the Holocaust [wiki])
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:11 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:11 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately, there's a reason why the Gish Gallop is such a successful technique among creationists and their ilk - telling a lie, or a lot of lies, requires less work than telling the truth and no respect for for fairness or research.
I think you have to put the burden of proof back on people (if it's in a facebook or other online context) by asking direct but gentle, non-confrontational questions like "Is this true?" or "Can you provide a link for this?" Typically people will either try to change the topic, in which case you can gently redirect ("OK, but you still haven't provided any proof for this story/claim") or they will give you a couple links to Breitbart or some other horrible rightwing cesspool and it's usually pretty easy to click through, look at the article and come back to the thread with a quick explanation of how/why the thing is fake or doesn't actually prove the headline assertion, etc.
Of course once in a while things or stories that look like RW bullshit turn out to be maybe true and it's okay to acknowledge that, too while expressing the hope that everyone does their part to make sure they're not spreading false media items.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:12 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think you have to put the burden of proof back on people (if it's in a facebook or other online context) by asking direct but gentle, non-confrontational questions like "Is this true?" or "Can you provide a link for this?" Typically people will either try to change the topic, in which case you can gently redirect ("OK, but you still haven't provided any proof for this story/claim") or they will give you a couple links to Breitbart or some other horrible rightwing cesspool and it's usually pretty easy to click through, look at the article and come back to the thread with a quick explanation of how/why the thing is fake or doesn't actually prove the headline assertion, etc.
Of course once in a while things or stories that look like RW bullshit turn out to be maybe true and it's okay to acknowledge that, too while expressing the hope that everyone does their part to make sure they're not spreading false media items.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:12 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
One would hope they learned from the first time.
There's an interesting claim in the comments that the famous IBM and the Holocaust failed to prove complicity. I haven't read it.
posted by Coventry at 4:13 PM on December 24, 2016
There's an interesting claim in the comments that the famous IBM and the Holocaust failed to prove complicity. I haven't read it.
posted by Coventry at 4:13 PM on December 24, 2016
I think you have to put the burden of proof back on people
"Why do you believe that?" is a good one. I also like "Where can I read more about that?" but I am almost always genuinely interested anyway.
posted by Coventry at 4:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Why do you believe that?" is a good one. I also like "Where can I read more about that?" but I am almost always genuinely interested anyway.
posted by Coventry at 4:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Obama signed the Countering Foreign Propaganda and Disinformation Act into law yesterday.
Ok, so looking this over it appears to be creating a Ministry of Information for Trump to use. Great. I'd have to read it more carefully (which will wait until after Christmas), but it looks like there's nothing in the bill to stop the Trump Administration from using this to shape the narrative as they see fit.
posted by Gaz Errant at 4:41 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ok, so looking this over it appears to be creating a Ministry of Information for Trump to use. Great. I'd have to read it more carefully (which will wait until after Christmas), but it looks like there's nothing in the bill to stop the Trump Administration from using this to shape the narrative as they see fit.
posted by Gaz Errant at 4:41 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
it looks like there's nothing in the bill to stop the Trump Administration from using this to shape the narrative as they see fit.
No we just have to wait for SCOTUS to rule on what is a "fact" and what is "disinformation"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:16 PM on December 24, 2016
No we just have to wait for SCOTUS to rule on what is a "fact" and what is "disinformation"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:16 PM on December 24, 2016
There's an interesting claim in the comments that the famous IBM and the Holocaust failed to prove complicity. I
Well. I don't think IBM, or anyone, knew, in 1933, that there was going to be a genocide within a decade. But persecution of Jews was already starting, and it wouldn't have taken much imagination to see that ethnic registration was going to contribute to that. And now, that is kind of the point - refuse to help with anything that could be an early step in persecution or any kind of ethnoic cleansing.
posted by thelonius at 5:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well. I don't think IBM, or anyone, knew, in 1933, that there was going to be a genocide within a decade. But persecution of Jews was already starting, and it wouldn't have taken much imagination to see that ethnic registration was going to contribute to that. And now, that is kind of the point - refuse to help with anything that could be an early step in persecution or any kind of ethnoic cleansing.
posted by thelonius at 5:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Fake News Causes Pakistan to threaten Israel with Nuclear War
Happy Holidays, everyone!
posted by Mchelly at 5:25 PM on December 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
Happy Holidays, everyone!
posted by Mchelly at 5:25 PM on December 24, 2016 [17 favorites]
According to Anglin, he claims he will be busing in “skinheads from the Bay Area,” adding, “Currently, my guys say we are going to be able to put together about 200 people to participate in the march, which will be against Jews, Jewish businesses and everyone who supports either.”
“We have to stand up to these people, and we have to force an apology,” The Forward reports Anglin wrote. “This will be an absolutely massive victory for our cause. We have never done this before.”
My wife and immediate in-laws are Jewish so I'm just having a mini panic attack here.
posted by Talez at 5:44 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
“We have to stand up to these people, and we have to force an apology,” The Forward reports Anglin wrote. “This will be an absolutely massive victory for our cause. We have never done this before.”
My wife and immediate in-laws are Jewish so I'm just having a mini panic attack here.
posted by Talez at 5:44 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh my God. It's still horrifying to think that nuclear war is coming back as a serious threat.
Religious angle and fuzzy animals aside, this cartoon became ever more terrifying and ever more relevant, and I'm horrified that since the Cold War, which even he lived through, the Donald is too arrogant and stupid to realize how devastating a nuclear war could be.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:53 PM on December 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Religious angle and fuzzy animals aside, this cartoon became ever more terrifying and ever more relevant, and I'm horrified that since the Cold War, which even he lived through, the Donald is too arrogant and stupid to realize how devastating a nuclear war could be.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:53 PM on December 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
My wife and immediate in-laws are Jewish so I'm just having a mini panic attack here.
There's an excellent chance that Anglin is to some degree full of shit about this event. He's never organized a physical group nearly that large or moved them nearly that far. Either way a panic attack is exactly what he wants you to have. Outrage and active resistance is more warranted now and there's a lot of that already coming together locally.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:54 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
There's an excellent chance that Anglin is to some degree full of shit about this event. He's never organized a physical group nearly that large or moved them nearly that far. Either way a panic attack is exactly what he wants you to have. Outrage and active resistance is more warranted now and there's a lot of that already coming together locally.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:54 PM on December 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
I've often thought that the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists made a mistake in starting the hands of the Doomsday Clock at seven minutes to midnight; it means that there's basically no meaningful way to indicate how very much riskier our lives are now shown to be. Seven minutes, three minutes (the current figure IIRC), one minute; there's not much apparent difference. In reality, though, we're probably at more risk now than we have been since JFK.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:57 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:57 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Why do you believe that?" is a good one. I also like "Where can I read more about that?"
I can understand why people want to try this approach but it will almost always be a one way street. The other side is entrenched and incurious. Forget reasoning and logic. We are dealing with a cult mentality. I know that that sounds extreme but I believe it to be true. Actual facts do not matter to these people.We need to rethink building bridges and conventional modes of outreach are out the window.
Mefite Pater Aletheias said it best and I agree with him wholeheartedly:
(I am pretty sure that) He was responding to this comment: see for example the WaPo story about the fake news org from last week where the guy claims that they tried to run a fake news site targeting liberals and it just didn't get the clicks.
Pater Aletheias's reply:
I've seen several people respond to that with suspicion ("He's just saying that to get liberals to share it! Brilliant!") but I believe it. I hardly ever see a liberal version of the conservative fake news and email forwards that I literally see multiple times a day. Plus, as the mandated annoying fact-checker among my Facebook friends, when I do see some fake news with a liberal bias, here's what happens:
Liberal friend: *posts fake news*
Me: Actually, no. See this link.
Liberal friend: Ugh, my bad! I'll take it down and post a correction.
On the other hand,
Conservative friend: *posts fake news*
Me: Actually, no. See this link.
Conservative friend: I can't believe you trust the freaking Main Stream Media on this! They are completely in the tank for Hillary! www.antimuslimpatriotreport.com has been all over this important development since day one!
Every. Single. Time.
I mean, the fact that some liberals are suspicious about an article that makes nice claims about them shows how far they will bend over to fact-check.
(bolded text mine)
posted by futz at 6:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [50 favorites]
I can understand why people want to try this approach but it will almost always be a one way street. The other side is entrenched and incurious. Forget reasoning and logic. We are dealing with a cult mentality. I know that that sounds extreme but I believe it to be true. Actual facts do not matter to these people.We need to rethink building bridges and conventional modes of outreach are out the window.
Mefite Pater Aletheias said it best and I agree with him wholeheartedly:
(I am pretty sure that) He was responding to this comment: see for example the WaPo story about the fake news org from last week where the guy claims that they tried to run a fake news site targeting liberals and it just didn't get the clicks.
Pater Aletheias's reply:
I've seen several people respond to that with suspicion ("He's just saying that to get liberals to share it! Brilliant!") but I believe it. I hardly ever see a liberal version of the conservative fake news and email forwards that I literally see multiple times a day. Plus, as the mandated annoying fact-checker among my Facebook friends, when I do see some fake news with a liberal bias, here's what happens:
Liberal friend: *posts fake news*
Me: Actually, no. See this link.
Liberal friend: Ugh, my bad! I'll take it down and post a correction.
On the other hand,
Conservative friend: *posts fake news*
Me: Actually, no. See this link.
Conservative friend: I can't believe you trust the freaking Main Stream Media on this! They are completely in the tank for Hillary! www.antimuslimpatriotreport.com has been all over this important development since day one!
Every. Single. Time.
I mean, the fact that some liberals are suspicious about an article that makes nice claims about them shows how far they will bend over to fact-check.
(bolded text mine)
posted by futz at 6:06 PM on December 24, 2016 [50 favorites]
I see people post stuff from US Uncut, Occupy Democrats, RT (ew, and not rly "liberal" as much as just anti-US) and other outlets pretty commonly actually. It's exhausting trying to fact check some of the things from those sites.
posted by gucci mane at 6:12 PM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 6:12 PM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
The other side is entrenched and incurious. Forget reasoning and logic. We are dealing with a cult mentality. I know that that sounds extreme but I believe it to be true. Actual facts do not matter to these people.
With a lot of them, this is true.
On the other hand, I think there is a distinction between entrenched conservatives/Trumpites and moderates or genuinely misinformed people who I think we can get onto our side, and we need all the allies we can get in the coming years.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:16 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
With a lot of them, this is true.
On the other hand, I think there is a distinction between entrenched conservatives/Trumpites and moderates or genuinely misinformed people who I think we can get onto our side, and we need all the allies we can get in the coming years.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:16 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think I'll have to buy a t-shirt from the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership even if they do make me look a little wishy-washy in my support for the 2nd amendment.
Somehow I don't believe Anglin even knows what a "high powered rifle" is. Seriously, he sounds like someone who believes elk hunters would be impressed with an AR15.
posted by ridgerunner at 6:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Somehow I don't believe Anglin even knows what a "high powered rifle" is. Seriously, he sounds like someone who believes elk hunters would be impressed with an AR15.
posted by ridgerunner at 6:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I see people post stuff from US Uncut...
I assume, since you didn't say, that you mean liberals? I see some of that too but that is peeing into the ocean when compared to the alt-reich/hardcore conservatives.
posted by futz at 6:18 PM on December 24, 2016
I assume, since you didn't say, that you mean liberals? I see some of that too but that is peeing into the ocean when compared to the alt-reich/hardcore conservatives.
posted by futz at 6:18 PM on December 24, 2016
My wife and immediate in-laws are Jewish so I'm just having a mini panic attack here.
Whitefish, Montana is an interesting place. It is located in Flathead County which is one of the most red places in Montana and a refuge for white nationalist neo-nazis. The county voted more than 2 to 1 for Trump. But Whitefish is a small lakeside town of 6000 that is a summer boating and winter ski resort. It is populated by a lot of more liberal retirees from Washington, Oregon and California. Whitefish is the only town in Flathead County that voted, just barely for Clinton. It's not the sort of place that would be very receptive to white nationalists. For that you have to go to the county seat of Kalispell.
posted by JackFlash at 6:24 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Whitefish, Montana is an interesting place. It is located in Flathead County which is one of the most red places in Montana and a refuge for white nationalist neo-nazis. The county voted more than 2 to 1 for Trump. But Whitefish is a small lakeside town of 6000 that is a summer boating and winter ski resort. It is populated by a lot of more liberal retirees from Washington, Oregon and California. Whitefish is the only town in Flathead County that voted, just barely for Clinton. It's not the sort of place that would be very receptive to white nationalists. For that you have to go to the county seat of Kalispell.
posted by JackFlash at 6:24 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's not the sort of place that would be very receptive to white nationalists. For that you have to go to the county seat of Kalispell.
Even in Kalispell open white nationalists of the Anglin/Spencer sort are not welcome, though "softer" anti-muslim and anti-immigrant organizations like ACT do have a lot more traction in Kalispell. Sadly. The Kalispell PLE ("Pioneer Little Europe") is the main 100%-swastika-tattoo-Nazi faction there and they are shamed into secrecy and are only a few dozen in number. Another factor worth mentioning is the Native American community, which has significant if still underrepresented political power, and is a sizable part of the population (about 10% of the overall area but comprising up to half or more of some towns).
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:30 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Even in Kalispell open white nationalists of the Anglin/Spencer sort are not welcome, though "softer" anti-muslim and anti-immigrant organizations like ACT do have a lot more traction in Kalispell. Sadly. The Kalispell PLE ("Pioneer Little Europe") is the main 100%-swastika-tattoo-Nazi faction there and they are shamed into secrecy and are only a few dozen in number. Another factor worth mentioning is the Native American community, which has significant if still underrepresented political power, and is a sizable part of the population (about 10% of the overall area but comprising up to half or more of some towns).
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:30 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
So instead of doing the million things on my list today, I got sucked into binge watching Occupied on Netflix, a Norwegian political thriller re a slow-motion Russian invasion/occupation of Norway. One of the reasons the Russians get away with it is because the US has withdrawn from NATO and basically doesn't give a fuck. Feels oddly relevant for some reason. It's also worth watching if you're a fan of modernist design and of actors moving seamlessly between at least three languages.
posted by longdaysjourney at 6:36 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by longdaysjourney at 6:36 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Please don't edit for content. It is for minor corrections such as spelling errors.
posted by futz at 6:40 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 6:40 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I work in this bar, I see a lot of people, a lot of locals, and I've never once been bothered or threatened. I mean, I'm clearly Mexican," she says, laughing.
Moreno moved to Whitefish two years ago from Southern California. She also voted for Trump. She says she's not afraid even if the more extreme elements of the far right are becoming mainstream.
"I know that we are going to be OK," Moreno says. "If they were to come out and be more violent, that's why I want to encourage more people to take action and learn how to protect themselves."
Protect themselves, she says, with their Second Amendment rights. It's the main reason she voted for the president-elect.
Ain't that America?
posted by ridgerunner at 6:48 PM on December 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Another factor worth mentioning is the Native American community, which has significant if still underrepresented political power, and is a sizable part of the population (about 10% of the overall area but comprising up to half or more of some towns).
Flathead county, where Whitefish is located, is only about 1% Native American. It is one of the whitest counties in the country at about 96%. The Flathead Indian Reservation is not in Flathead County, but is in Lake County directly south of Flathead County.
posted by JackFlash at 6:55 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Flathead county, where Whitefish is located, is only about 1% Native American. It is one of the whitest counties in the country at about 96%. The Flathead Indian Reservation is not in Flathead County, but is in Lake County directly south of Flathead County.
posted by JackFlash at 6:55 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
if [the Neo-Nazis harassing Jews in Montana] step up the level of violence from their current one (only harassing phone calls and social media so far) I think they'll be surprised at the type and intensity of resistance that they are going to face from locals.
Maybe. But you know, a lot of Bavarians didn't care for Hitler's thugs either. It took less than a decade before they were lining the streets, cheering him. I don't think most Americans can really understand how bad things can get and how quickly it can all happen. I mean, a few election threads ago I was surprised to see a couple of MeFites (very liberal, very nice, very serious people) say that they didn't think antisemitism was still a thing, that it was just a tool used by Zionists to crush criticism of Israel.
Antisemitism has very deep roots in Western culture. Apparently people are immersed in it, like fish in water, and it's only when you have armed Nazis literally marching in the streets that they say say "hey! look! antisemitism!" Until we reach that point there are an infinite number of excuses that can be made for it, and once you reach that point it's pretty much too late - because you just can't rely on the good guys being more numerous than the bad ones.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:57 PM on December 24, 2016 [23 favorites]
Maybe. But you know, a lot of Bavarians didn't care for Hitler's thugs either. It took less than a decade before they were lining the streets, cheering him. I don't think most Americans can really understand how bad things can get and how quickly it can all happen. I mean, a few election threads ago I was surprised to see a couple of MeFites (very liberal, very nice, very serious people) say that they didn't think antisemitism was still a thing, that it was just a tool used by Zionists to crush criticism of Israel.
Antisemitism has very deep roots in Western culture. Apparently people are immersed in it, like fish in water, and it's only when you have armed Nazis literally marching in the streets that they say say "hey! look! antisemitism!" Until we reach that point there are an infinite number of excuses that can be made for it, and once you reach that point it's pretty much too late - because you just can't rely on the good guys being more numerous than the bad ones.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:57 PM on December 24, 2016 [23 favorites]
The Flathead Indian Reservation in not in Flathead County, but is in Lake County to directly south of Flathead County.
Correct. However it really doesn't make sense to only say that the area impacted only concerns Flathead County, since people are mobile, families are dispersed and commutes will involve multiple counties daily. The towns of Polson/Pablo/Ronan/Charlo, for example, are definitely within the greater sphere of Kalispell-Whitefish, and they are part of the Reservation and have much higher Native representation.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:00 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Correct. However it really doesn't make sense to only say that the area impacted only concerns Flathead County, since people are mobile, families are dispersed and commutes will involve multiple counties daily. The towns of Polson/Pablo/Ronan/Charlo, for example, are definitely within the greater sphere of Kalispell-Whitefish, and they are part of the Reservation and have much higher Native representation.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:00 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
you just can't rely on the good guys being more numerous than the bad ones
Because, contrary to all the misleading "one good man against the world" books/movies, you often need good guys A LOT more numerous than the bad ones.
Ain't that America?
Because in the Real World Donald Trump with his narcissism, dishonesty and stupidity, is EXTREMELY representative of the American people... at least the ones with any power in the current American society.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Because, contrary to all the misleading "one good man against the world" books/movies, you often need good guys A LOT more numerous than the bad ones.
Ain't that America?
Because in the Real World Donald Trump with his narcissism, dishonesty and stupidity, is EXTREMELY representative of the American people... at least the ones with any power in the current American society.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Joe in Australia, you're right on all counts. I've been waiting for this to happen in America since childhood. But even if it's going to go to hell within a few years, I'm here shouting from the rooftops now and later fighting them in the streets if I'm able. It's not underplaying the threat to say that we shouldn't be terrified of them now, as long as we're standing up to them. The brownshirts can still be smashed while they're relatively small and feeble.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh my God. It's still horrifying to think that nuclear war is coming back as a serious threat.
Someone said upthread that they didn't take Trump's talk about nukes seriously; I don't think he does. Well, maybe on Tuesdays he does, Thursdays not so much. In one interview he's said "The biggest problem in the world, to me, is nuclear and proliferation" (yes he said "and"). I really do believe he's tweaking on Fen-Phen the way he is all over the map. He can start shit just because he cannot shut his orange ass up.
I was so baffled by that tweet: What is this "such time" that the world will come to its senses? We will have brought about disarmament through arms races and proliferation? Just random explosions? What is this "such time"?
And Kellyanne Conway almost sounds like she could be retroactively crafting policy just based on damage control. "Maybe he means modernization and upgrades". Maybe that. That sounds good. Ok. I have a feeling that this is how it's going to go in many areas; he shoots off his mouth, his lackeys dress it up to make it sound less insane and that's how we may get policy because Donny will save face by saying "yeah, that's totally what I meant" because even he doesn't know what he fucking means.
Here's Scott Baio waxing prophetic*:
"I want him, as any one person can do, to just go into Washington and blow it up".
(*pardon the gallows humor, it's my coping mechanism)
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
Someone said upthread that they didn't take Trump's talk about nukes seriously; I don't think he does. Well, maybe on Tuesdays he does, Thursdays not so much. In one interview he's said "The biggest problem in the world, to me, is nuclear and proliferation" (yes he said "and"). I really do believe he's tweaking on Fen-Phen the way he is all over the map. He can start shit just because he cannot shut his orange ass up.
I was so baffled by that tweet: What is this "such time" that the world will come to its senses? We will have brought about disarmament through arms races and proliferation? Just random explosions? What is this "such time"?
And Kellyanne Conway almost sounds like she could be retroactively crafting policy just based on damage control. "Maybe he means modernization and upgrades". Maybe that. That sounds good. Ok. I have a feeling that this is how it's going to go in many areas; he shoots off his mouth, his lackeys dress it up to make it sound less insane and that's how we may get policy because Donny will save face by saying "yeah, that's totally what I meant" because even he doesn't know what he fucking means.
Here's Scott Baio waxing prophetic*:
"I want him, as any one person can do, to just go into Washington and blow it up".
(*pardon the gallows humor, it's my coping mechanism)
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also meant to say that this what everyone who was sane predicted and it's happening now. Not even in office yet.
I know that's the obvious but I'm just in such utter disbelief. He's really outdone himself.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:14 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know that's the obvious but I'm just in such utter disbelief. He's really outdone himself.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:14 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
fuck, sorry for repeat posts but I forgot my main point: It's not about us taking his nuclear talk seriously, it's about the rest of the world's perception of his crazy talk.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:16 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:16 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ryan proposes fines, ethics moves on grandstanding House members
Under the proposed new rules package, which was seen by Bloomberg News, members could face a $500 fine through deductions to their paychecks for a first offense of using electronic photography or audio or visual recording, as well as for broadcasting from the chamber’s floor. A $2,500 fine would be leveled for the next such offense and each subsequent violation.
posted by futz at 7:41 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Under the proposed new rules package, which was seen by Bloomberg News, members could face a $500 fine through deductions to their paychecks for a first offense of using electronic photography or audio or visual recording, as well as for broadcasting from the chamber’s floor. A $2,500 fine would be leveled for the next such offense and each subsequent violation.
posted by futz at 7:41 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact Miller realized after the nuke tweets that he'd spend the next four years with Trump contradicting everything he said.
---
In my imagination he finally got home and someone in is family was all 'wtf are you doing? No. Just no. Stop. Or consequences buddy.
Well, someone in his family - like his wife - did say wtf and probably much worse.
@yashar:
Trump camp in meltdown. Miller resigns after AJ Delgado posts cryptic tweets re Miller being dad to her child.
posted by chris24 at 7:43 PM on December 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
---
In my imagination he finally got home and someone in is family was all 'wtf are you doing? No. Just no. Stop. Or consequences buddy.
Well, someone in his family - like his wife - did say wtf and probably much worse.
@yashar:
Trump camp in meltdown. Miller resigns after AJ Delgado posts cryptic tweets re Miller being dad to her child.
posted by chris24 at 7:43 PM on December 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
Remember the story of a few Trump staffers going to a strip club in Vegas with a few reporters before a debate? Two of the three Trumpsters partying were Miller and Delgado.
What happens in Vegas, stays in the womb for about 9 months.
posted by chris24 at 7:58 PM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
What happens in Vegas, stays in the womb for about 9 months.
posted by chris24 at 7:58 PM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
Well, someone in his family - like his wife - did say wtf and probably much worse.
@yashar:
Trump camp in meltdown. Miller resigns after AJ Delgado posts cryptic tweets re Miller being dad to her child.
Well that took me a bit to sort out what the upset may be about.
I really shouldn't laugh but I did and am.
posted by Jalliah at 7:58 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
@yashar:
Trump camp in meltdown. Miller resigns after AJ Delgado posts cryptic tweets re Miller being dad to her child.
Well that took me a bit to sort out what the upset may be about.
I really shouldn't laugh but I did and am.
posted by Jalliah at 7:58 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's not about us taking his nuclear talk seriously, it's about the rest of the world's perception of his crazy talk.
Does anyone think that any world leader doesn't see through him already? He's gonna get played harder than the guy at the poker table who picked up a copy of Super System at the airport on his way to Vegas.
posted by Etrigan at 8:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [21 favorites]
Does anyone think that any world leader doesn't see through him already? He's gonna get played harder than the guy at the poker table who picked up a copy of Super System at the airport on his way to Vegas.
posted by Etrigan at 8:03 PM on December 24, 2016 [21 favorites]
literally he alone is in charge of launching nuclear attacks
SecDef has to approve as well.
posted by Etrigan at 8:04 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
SecDef has to approve as well.
posted by Etrigan at 8:04 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
2. A valid order being disobeyed
2A. Some insane physical fighting with Trump personally and/or a military coup
Sec. Defense (Mattis) would have to consent to a nuclear strike. Mattis is bad news for a lot of reasons but I think he probably wouldn't allow Trump to assure on a whim that his was the last tweet of all time ("Sad!"). Probably. How's that for the thinnest and most tepid dollop of comfort?
edit: you got there first Etrigan.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:05 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
2A. Some insane physical fighting with Trump personally and/or a military coup
Sec. Defense (Mattis) would have to consent to a nuclear strike. Mattis is bad news for a lot of reasons but I think he probably wouldn't allow Trump to assure on a whim that his was the last tweet of all time ("Sad!"). Probably. How's that for the thinnest and most tepid dollop of comfort?
edit: you got there first Etrigan.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:05 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
And to conclude this Christmas Eve regarding the first of many probable resignations in disgrace from the Trump administration, the tweets from Delgado:
"AJ Delgado, a senior advisor in Trump’s transition team, posted several tweets hinting that Miller was at the center of a sex scandal.
“Congratulations to the baby-daddy on being named WH Comms Director!” she wrote in one now-deleted tweet.
“The 2016 version of John Edwards,” she wrote in another, referring to the disgraced ex-Democratic senator who fathered a child with his mistress."
posted by chris24 at 8:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
"AJ Delgado, a senior advisor in Trump’s transition team, posted several tweets hinting that Miller was at the center of a sex scandal.
“Congratulations to the baby-daddy on being named WH Comms Director!” she wrote in one now-deleted tweet.
“The 2016 version of John Edwards,” she wrote in another, referring to the disgraced ex-Democratic senator who fathered a child with his mistress."
posted by chris24 at 8:10 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I do not think miss Delgado s tweets refer to +her+ pregnancy, for I do not believe she is now, or recently has been gravid. I think she's probably in the know about another affair, rather than think she's intentionally outed herself as the pregnant mistress.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Delgado is fairly well know for being purposely child-free. I don't believe she's pregnant.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:22 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:22 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait how does a sex scandal get you turfed from a Trump administration
posted by jason_steakums at 8:25 PM on December 24, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 8:25 PM on December 24, 2016 [26 favorites]
Hmm, the third Trump staffer at the strip club was Jessica Ditto, deputy communications director. Miller was her boss.
posted by chris24 at 8:25 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by chris24 at 8:25 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe? Who knows at this point. She was mad enough at him to lash out in a very public way. Is it personal? We'll see.
posted by futz at 8:26 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 8:26 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait how does a sex scandal get you turfed from a Trump administration
There can only be one President, after all.
posted by Rykey at 8:27 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
There can only be one President, after all.
posted by Rykey at 8:27 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm not particularly interested in the apparent scandal/drama, other than that it suggests nobody in that campaign believed in late October that they'd be extending that work into long-term jobs after early November.
posted by holgate at 8:31 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by holgate at 8:31 PM on December 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
For real though this resignation is yet another thing that makes me think we might actually be fighting a Pence administration with a big orange distraction out front, I can't see Trump giving a shit about a staff sex scandal other than to take it as another opportunity to destroy a political norm.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:37 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 8:37 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
If it's not Delgado then that makes me laugh even more because that means that whatever is going on pissed her off enough to 'spill the beans' which I expect means she may have decided she's had enough and is on her way out as well. Which is just another notch in the whole this team is one messed up and incompetent bunch belt.
If Miller had an affair, whatever. I'm just glad he's gone and that Donald has to deal with losing a pretty important part of his close team as well whatever the PR will be around a possible sex scandal.
"HAPPY HOLIDAYS Donald and minions. Thumbs up. Yer doing a right spiffy job there."
posted by Jalliah at 8:38 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm interested in any Trump administration scandals simply because if they're in disarray and dealing with fallout, it hopefully takes time and focus away from harming people. I'll take incompetent and immoral over focused and evil.
posted by chris24 at 8:41 PM on December 24, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 8:41 PM on December 24, 2016 [26 favorites]
For real though this resignation is yet another thing that makes me think we might actually be fighting a Pence administration with a big orange distraction out front, I can't see Trump giving a shit about a staff sex scandal other than to take it as another opportunity to destroy a political norm.
It may not Donald that forced him to resign but his 'family' or wife as Chris24 suggested. I don't think it matters who really. The consequences are the same no matter who decided he should.
And ditto chris24. Much rather Donald having time in his brain taken up by stuff like this. Just means that much less time for his brain to ponder destroying the world.
posted by Jalliah at 8:44 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
It may not Donald that forced him to resign but his 'family' or wife as Chris24 suggested. I don't think it matters who really. The consequences are the same no matter who decided he should.
And ditto chris24. Much rather Donald having time in his brain taken up by stuff like this. Just means that much less time for his brain to ponder destroying the world.
posted by Jalliah at 8:44 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Chris24, if Trump has his finger on the button you'll have the worst of both worlds: a lunatic stirring up trouble abroad, and cold-hearted fascists chipping away at society at home.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:47 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:47 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Russian military plane 'disappears from radar': A Russian military aircraft has disappeared from radars shortly after taking off from the Black Sea resort of Sochi, Russian media says.
The Tu-154 plane, which was on its way to Latakia in Syria, was carrying 82 passengers and 10 crew members, RT broadcaster reported.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Tu-154 plane, which was on its way to Latakia in Syria, was carrying 82 passengers and 10 crew members, RT broadcaster reported.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
A Tu-154 is an airliner, so I guess my military plane they mean as used by the military?
(The other fact I know about them is their terrible safety record, but that probably doesn't make things any less scary if one went down.)
posted by Artw at 9:14 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
(The other fact I know about them is their terrible safety record, but that probably doesn't make things any less scary if one went down.)
posted by Artw at 9:14 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Great, now the Obama administration needs to prove that this was not the "time and place of our choosing."
posted by Coventry at 9:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 9:17 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
SecDef has to approve as well.
Nope. That is a common misunderstanding. Legally, the Secretary of Defense has no opinion in the matter of launching a nuclear attack. Secretary of Defense's job is just to confirm that it an order from the president, whether he agrees or not. If the Secretary of Defense is not able to confirm, then next in command confirms. The decision is the president's and the president's alone. That is deliberately the way it was set up.
posted by JackFlash at 9:43 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
Nope. That is a common misunderstanding. Legally, the Secretary of Defense has no opinion in the matter of launching a nuclear attack. Secretary of Defense's job is just to confirm that it an order from the president, whether he agrees or not. If the Secretary of Defense is not able to confirm, then next in command confirms. The decision is the president's and the president's alone. That is deliberately the way it was set up.
posted by JackFlash at 9:43 PM on December 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
There seem to be a lot of people thinking this way at the moment. If you type "us proc" into google it autocompletes to "us procedure for launching nuclear weapons".
posted by Coventry at 9:45 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 9:45 PM on December 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh dear. I'll be getting back to staring at fallout projection maps then.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:48 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:48 PM on December 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you type "us proc" into google it autocompletes to "us procedure for launching nuclear weapons".
That's just you, probably because you typed it in at some point in the past. (I haven't, and get "us process services".)
posted by holgate at 10:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
That's just you, probably because you typed it in at some point in the past. (I haven't, and get "us process services".)
posted by holgate at 10:07 PM on December 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thanks. It seems to be tied to my IP address. I verified it in a different browser, but it changes if I go through a proxy.
posted by Coventry at 10:24 PM on December 24, 2016
posted by Coventry at 10:24 PM on December 24, 2016
The decision is the president's and the president's alone.
This is correct, the only check on the president's authority to use nuclear weapons happens on a Tuesday in November every four years.
posted by peeedro at 10:27 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is correct, the only check on the president's authority to use nuclear weapons happens on a Tuesday in November every four years.
posted by peeedro at 10:27 PM on December 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
The decision is the president's and the president's alone.
Well in theory, yeah. Unless Drumpf is actually in the silo with a partner at the other key, there is plenty of friction. I don't think most in the military would be cool with a first strike on some second tier country when it actually comes down to it.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well in theory, yeah. Unless Drumpf is actually in the silo with a partner at the other key, there is plenty of friction. I don't think most in the military would be cool with a first strike on some second tier country when it actually comes down to it.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:20 PM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
It’s Official: America Has Two Presidents at One Time
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:34 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:34 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
literally he alone is in charge of launching nuclear attacks
SecDef has to approve as well.
posted by Etrigan
Well in theory, yeah. Unless Drumpf is actually in the silo with a partner at the other key, there is plenty of friction. I don't think most in the military would be cool with a first strike on some second tier country when it actually comes down to it.
posted by Meatbomb
First off, I can't believe that I am having this discussion in the 2010's BUT if we are going to have a conversation about nukes can we please start with the basic facts? Correct me if I am wrong.
The above claims that the Secretary of Defense can stop a direct order from the President is FALSE.. They can object but that objection holds no legal weight. As it stands right now the President can do whatever he/she wants regardless of any opposition.
The SecDef save & the key save are movie tropes. The President has unbridled power in this arena. There is no official built in mechanism that requires careful thought or agreement amongst several "leaders". This is stand your ground on steroids. It leaves the door wide open for insanity with zero checks and balances.
posted by futz at 12:38 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
SecDef has to approve as well.
posted by Etrigan
Well in theory, yeah. Unless Drumpf is actually in the silo with a partner at the other key, there is plenty of friction. I don't think most in the military would be cool with a first strike on some second tier country when it actually comes down to it.
posted by Meatbomb
First off, I can't believe that I am having this discussion in the 2010's BUT if we are going to have a conversation about nukes can we please start with the basic facts? Correct me if I am wrong.
The above claims that the Secretary of Defense can stop a direct order from the President is FALSE.. They can object but that objection holds no legal weight. As it stands right now the President can do whatever he/she wants regardless of any opposition.
The SecDef save & the key save are movie tropes. The President has unbridled power in this arena. There is no official built in mechanism that requires careful thought or agreement amongst several "leaders". This is stand your ground on steroids. It leaves the door wide open for insanity with zero checks and balances.
posted by futz at 12:38 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well in theory, yeah.
I don't think it's just in theory, is it? I would think this particular system is designed to preclude so far as is humanly possible each link in the chain having any latitude to debate "Have I received this order because the President is currently doing something stupid or because the President having done something stupid in the past has created circumstances where this order is necessary?"
Would anyone beyond the first step or two actually be in a position to know with certainty whether it's a first strike or not? Does that information accompany the order?
posted by XMLicious at 12:39 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
my browser tab keeps telling me there are [2,864,974 new comments] and I think oh dear the time is come what has happened
merry christmas, mefites, it's an odd time for me to contribute my third ever comment in the election2016 threads but here I am waiting for santa and vince guaraldi has been playing his charlie brown album for about five hours now and I wish I had eggnog, or a life
[public broadcaster voiceover:] discussion of US nuclear launch policy on christmas eve now continues
posted by sylvanshine at 12:49 AM on December 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
merry christmas, mefites, it's an odd time for me to contribute my third ever comment in the election2016 threads but here I am waiting for santa and vince guaraldi has been playing his charlie brown album for about five hours now and I wish I had eggnog, or a life
[public broadcaster voiceover:] discussion of US nuclear launch policy on christmas eve now continues
posted by sylvanshine at 12:49 AM on December 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
I don't think it's just in theory, is it? I would think this particular system is designed to preclude so far as is humanly possible each link in the chain having any latitude to debate "Have I received this order because the President is currently doing something stupid or because the President having done something stupid in the past has created circumstances where this order is necessary?"
Pretty much. Here's a lovely article in the WaPo from a nuclear weapons historian on this exact topic, and the accompanying post on his blog. I'll quote the relevant bits:
When Trump takes office in January, he will have sole authority over more than 7,000 warheads. There is no failsafe. The whole point of U.S. nuclear weapons control is to make sure that the president — and only the president — can use them if and whenever he decides to do so. The one sure way to keep President Trump from launching a nuclear attack, under the system we’ve had in place since the early Cold War, would have been to elect someone else. [...]
That the president would be the only person competent to use nuclear weapons was never challenged. Even asking the question would throw the entire system into disarray, as Maj. Harold Hering learned in 1973. Hering was a 21-year Air Force veteran who was decorated for his flying in Vietnam before being sent for training as a nuclear missile squadron commander. He had been taught that officers had an obligation to disobey illegal orders. So when he was told how to launch a nuclear attack, he asked what seemed like a simple question: How could he be sure that an order to launch his missiles was lawful? How could he be sure, for example, that the president wasn’t insane? Instead of an answer, he got the boot: an aborted promotion and an administrative discharge for “failure to demonstrate acceptable qualities of leadership” and for indicating “a defective mental attitude towards his duties.”
Merry Christmas, everyone!
posted by un petit cadeau at 12:54 AM on December 25, 2016 [33 favorites]
Pretty much. Here's a lovely article in the WaPo from a nuclear weapons historian on this exact topic, and the accompanying post on his blog. I'll quote the relevant bits:
When Trump takes office in January, he will have sole authority over more than 7,000 warheads. There is no failsafe. The whole point of U.S. nuclear weapons control is to make sure that the president — and only the president — can use them if and whenever he decides to do so. The one sure way to keep President Trump from launching a nuclear attack, under the system we’ve had in place since the early Cold War, would have been to elect someone else. [...]
That the president would be the only person competent to use nuclear weapons was never challenged. Even asking the question would throw the entire system into disarray, as Maj. Harold Hering learned in 1973. Hering was a 21-year Air Force veteran who was decorated for his flying in Vietnam before being sent for training as a nuclear missile squadron commander. He had been taught that officers had an obligation to disobey illegal orders. So when he was told how to launch a nuclear attack, he asked what seemed like a simple question: How could he be sure that an order to launch his missiles was lawful? How could he be sure, for example, that the president wasn’t insane? Instead of an answer, he got the boot: an aborted promotion and an administrative discharge for “failure to demonstrate acceptable qualities of leadership” and for indicating “a defective mental attitude towards his duties.”
Merry Christmas, everyone!
posted by un petit cadeau at 12:54 AM on December 25, 2016 [33 favorites]
2,864,974 is the title of this post. It is the number of votes that HRC won the popular vote by!
posted by futz at 12:57 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by futz at 12:57 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hey the national enquirer just had a front page story on how cool trump's family is so he should be fine with the keys to end humanity right
posted by benzenedream at 12:59 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by benzenedream at 12:59 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
And we should remind everyone of that number as often as possible. NO mandate for the thin skinned PEOTUS.
posted by futz at 1:01 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by futz at 1:01 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Would anyone beyond the first step or two actually be in a position to know with certainty whether it's a first strike or not? Does that information accompany the order?
The 'order' is basically an Emergency Action Message, so it seems highly doubtful (to me at least) that the missile and sub crews would be getting that information to go along with the order.
posted by un petit cadeau at 1:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The 'order' is basically an Emergency Action Message, so it seems highly doubtful (to me at least) that the missile and sub crews would be getting that information to go along with the order.
posted by un petit cadeau at 1:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, it's true that only the President has the authority to launch a nuclear strike, he does require the Secretary of Defense's concurrence in order to do so. If the Secretary of Defense refuses to concur, he could be asked to step aside at the discretion of the President and his next in line would then be asked for concurrence and so on if that person refused, until, theoretically, someone did accept the responsibility and issued a concurring order.
There is also the possibility of the President being declared unfit by the Vice President and a majority of cabinet heads or congress.
In practice one would assume a much trickier situation would occur should there be considerable disagreement over a launch. For example, if, instead of Nixon resigning he had decided to say fuck it and launch missiles, he almost certainly would have been halted from doing so by concerted effort from many quarters until he could be declared unfit for office in a constitutional manner. In Trump's case, should his Secretary of Defense refuse the order, then there would likely be some largely extra-constitutional battle behind the scenes as the standing of that Secretary was placed in direct conflict with the standing of the President in a clash over purpose and value. Each additional officer would be caught up in weighing the decision based on the disagreement that had come before, which increasingly would make launching less likely as it would continue to escalate towards either finding the president unfit or finding a willing participant to accept the order.
That isn't to suggest the latter wouldn't happen, it surely could, but the situation would have a much larger standing than is suggested simply by the command structure alone. Trump reading a mean tweet about China and deciding to launch on whim would have some real difficulty in succeeding due to the known consequences of such an action and people's reasonable desire not to be suicidal. A launch against Yemen, on the other hand, would face less direct consequence and therefore would be more likely even if the Secretary of Defense refused to concur with the order. There are all sorts of possibilities one could pursue along these lines, and in most the threat of launch is either extreme or "just" highly likely, but in any first strike hardly an absolute done deal even were the constitution followed to the letter. So there's always at least some remore hope, not much maybe, but some.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:27 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is also the possibility of the President being declared unfit by the Vice President and a majority of cabinet heads or congress.
In practice one would assume a much trickier situation would occur should there be considerable disagreement over a launch. For example, if, instead of Nixon resigning he had decided to say fuck it and launch missiles, he almost certainly would have been halted from doing so by concerted effort from many quarters until he could be declared unfit for office in a constitutional manner. In Trump's case, should his Secretary of Defense refuse the order, then there would likely be some largely extra-constitutional battle behind the scenes as the standing of that Secretary was placed in direct conflict with the standing of the President in a clash over purpose and value. Each additional officer would be caught up in weighing the decision based on the disagreement that had come before, which increasingly would make launching less likely as it would continue to escalate towards either finding the president unfit or finding a willing participant to accept the order.
That isn't to suggest the latter wouldn't happen, it surely could, but the situation would have a much larger standing than is suggested simply by the command structure alone. Trump reading a mean tweet about China and deciding to launch on whim would have some real difficulty in succeeding due to the known consequences of such an action and people's reasonable desire not to be suicidal. A launch against Yemen, on the other hand, would face less direct consequence and therefore would be more likely even if the Secretary of Defense refused to concur with the order. There are all sorts of possibilities one could pursue along these lines, and in most the threat of launch is either extreme or "just" highly likely, but in any first strike hardly an absolute done deal even were the constitution followed to the letter. So there's always at least some remore hope, not much maybe, but some.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:27 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is also the possibility of the President being declared unfit by the Vice President and a majority of cabinet heads or congress.
If I'm reading the 25th Amendment properly the "or" should be an "and"—to permanently declare the President unfit requires the cooperation of the Vice President, a majority of cabinet heads, and Congress.
Though it looks like on their own, assuming a hostile Congress, the VP + cabinet majority can get the VP in charge for however long it takes for Congress to assemble in session and confirm the President as fit, so maybe that's enough time to avert a nuclear attack and dissuade the President from his intent?
posted by XMLicious at 3:15 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Q: The door of the truck is open and the engine is running. How do I stop my toddler driving it away?
A: The door of the truck is probably too high for your toddler to reach.
Q: Actually, I lifted my toddler up and put him in the seat. How do I stop him driving it away?
A: Well, it's unlikely that your toddler can release the handbrake.
Q: I never use the handbrake. How do I stop him driving it away?
A: OK, well starting the truck would require that he depress the clutch and -
Q: My truck is an automatic.
A: Even so, he'd have to -
Q: And he asked me to put it in gear, so I did.
A: GODDAMMIT AMERICA
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:26 AM on December 25, 2016 [110 favorites]
A: The door of the truck is probably too high for your toddler to reach.
Q: Actually, I lifted my toddler up and put him in the seat. How do I stop him driving it away?
A: Well, it's unlikely that your toddler can release the handbrake.
Q: I never use the handbrake. How do I stop him driving it away?
A: OK, well starting the truck would require that he depress the clutch and -
Q: My truck is an automatic.
A: Even so, he'd have to -
Q: And he asked me to put it in gear, so I did.
A: GODDAMMIT AMERICA
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:26 AM on December 25, 2016 [110 favorites]
Secretary of Defense's job is just to confirm that it an order from the president, whether he agrees or not.
That's the official reason. Operationally, how often do you think someone outside the decision chain is procedurally required to confirm the validity of the issuer of an order in military operations?
It's approval in all but name.
posted by Etrigan at 4:39 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's the official reason. Operationally, how often do you think someone outside the decision chain is procedurally required to confirm the validity of the issuer of an order in military operations?
It's approval in all but name.
posted by Etrigan at 4:39 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
2014
@realDonaldTrump:
The global warming we should be worried about is the global warming caused by NUCLEAR WEAPONS in the hands of crazy or incompetent leaders!
Why yes Donald, we are.
posted by chris24 at 5:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [31 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump:
The global warming we should be worried about is the global warming caused by NUCLEAR WEAPONS in the hands of crazy or incompetent leaders!
Why yes Donald, we are.
posted by chris24 at 5:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [31 favorites]
chris24: @realDonaldTrump: The global warming we should be worried about is the global warming caused by NUCLEAR WEAPONS in the hands of crazy or incompetent leaders!
Sometimes I think Trump is in a 12 Monkeys time loop and he's trying to warn himself about himself.
posted by bluecore at 5:51 AM on December 25, 2016 [67 favorites]
Sometimes I think Trump is in a 12 Monkeys time loop and he's trying to warn himself about himself.
posted by bluecore at 5:51 AM on December 25, 2016 [67 favorites]
NYTimes Editorial Board: The Stolen Supreme Court Seat: No matter how it plays out, Americans must remember one thing above all: The person who gets confirmed will sit in a stolen seat.
It was stolen from Barack Obama, a twice-elected president who fulfilled his constitutional duty more than nine months ago by nominating Merrick Garland, a highly qualified and widely respected federal appellate judge.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:53 AM on December 25, 2016 [73 favorites]
It was stolen from Barack Obama, a twice-elected president who fulfilled his constitutional duty more than nine months ago by nominating Merrick Garland, a highly qualified and widely respected federal appellate judge.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:53 AM on December 25, 2016 [73 favorites]
He is actually incapable to the point of being medically classifiable as such, isn't he? And those around him know it and are pretending otherwise?
There may be a better explanation for his behaviour, but I can't see it. No snark.
posted by Devonian at 5:58 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
There may be a better explanation for his behaviour, but I can't see it. No snark.
posted by Devonian at 5:58 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
WaPo No survivors found after Russian military plane with 92 on board crashes en route to Syria
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Defense Ministry published on its website a list of passengers, who included members of the famed Alexandrov ensemble, better known internationally as the Red Army Choir, heading to Syria to entertain troops for the coming New Year holiday. Among those who were aboard the plane, according to the lists, was artistic director Valery Khalilov. Nine Russian journalists were also among the passengers.65 members of the choir were killed.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
For those interested in the systems of thermonuclear monarchy, I'd recommend Elaine Scarry's work. See my previous post, The Age of Anxiety
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:01 AM on December 25, 2016
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:01 AM on December 25, 2016
Also, I don't know who Jason Miller's mistress might be but his wife is expecting a baby in January.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:03 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:03 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Republican Party's entire "majority party" status was stolen over the past eight years. What's one more Supreme Court seat (that was previously held by the dishonestly 'conservative' jurist who is the model for every future nominee)?
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
OK, now let's try one where it looks like I invented Christmas and just got a blow job.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's an absurdly tiny fist.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:35 AM on December 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 6:35 AM on December 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
That photo's so weird. He looks...deflated? Lost? Confused? He looks like a shitty tattoo of himself.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:37 AM on December 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:37 AM on December 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
Hey the national enquirer just had a front page story on how cool trump's family is so he should be fine with the keys to end humanity right
I happened to glance at a National Enquirer while at a checkout. In addition to the cover full of pro-Trump stories, tucked in the corner there was a headline infroming us that Bill Clinton has cancer.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:31 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I happened to glance at a National Enquirer while at a checkout. In addition to the cover full of pro-Trump stories, tucked in the corner there was a headline infroming us that Bill Clinton has cancer.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:31 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The owner of the National Enquirer is a friend of Trump. Trump has asked why they didn't win a Pulitzer Prize (for getting one story correct).
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:06 AM on December 25, 2016
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:06 AM on December 25, 2016
XMLicious: If I'm reading the 25th Amendment properly the "or" should be an "and"—to permanently declare the President unfit requires the cooperation of the Vice President, a majority of cabinet heads, and Congress.
That's incorrect. The or is supposed to be an or. The language states (emphasis added) "Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President."
It takes the VP + a majority of cabinet heads or the VP + majority of congress (or some other body congress designates).
posted by Arbac at 8:28 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's incorrect. The or is supposed to be an or. The language states (emphasis added) "Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President."
It takes the VP + a majority of cabinet heads or the VP + majority of congress (or some other body congress designates).
posted by Arbac at 8:28 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bill Clinton has cancer
The National Enquirer apologizes for the misprint -- the intended headline was 'Bill Clinton Is Cancer.'
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:28 AM on December 25, 2016
The National Enquirer apologizes for the misprint -- the intended headline was 'Bill Clinton Is Cancer.'
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:28 AM on December 25, 2016
Well, it's true that only the President has the authority to launch a nuclear strike, he does require the Secretary of Defense's concurrence in order to do so.
No, the concurrence (agreement) of the Secretary of Defense is not required. The legal requirement of the Secretary of Defense is to execute the order whether he agrees or not. That is his sworn duty. You are suggesting that the Secretary of Defense might defy an order but that is quite different than saying that he must concur. Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, you should expect the Secretary of Defense to dutifully execute an order, the same as everyone else in the chain of command. And anyone who refuses would be instantly dismissed and replaced. In the military, concurrence with orders is not required.
posted by JackFlash at 8:29 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
No, the concurrence (agreement) of the Secretary of Defense is not required. The legal requirement of the Secretary of Defense is to execute the order whether he agrees or not. That is his sworn duty. You are suggesting that the Secretary of Defense might defy an order but that is quite different than saying that he must concur. Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, you should expect the Secretary of Defense to dutifully execute an order, the same as everyone else in the chain of command. And anyone who refuses would be instantly dismissed and replaced. In the military, concurrence with orders is not required.
posted by JackFlash at 8:29 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
snide aside, I cannot help but look at the trumps and think, "Do you even rich, bro?" Because what the fuck, coach class on JetBlue, shopping at Saks, eating cold chicken takeout, wearing trimmings from the dog groomer as hair, I mean, what the ever living fuck?
Indeed, what the fuck? One reason for this imposed parsimoniousness among the Trump rugrats might lie with their grandfather, a notorious penny-pincher who, it's claimed, would pick up unused nails lying on the floor of the incomplete apartment buildings he'd visit in his Caddy. Another might be that, as some have pointed out, the family's broke. Not "broke" broke in the sense of lacking funds for the next McDonald's happy meal, but up to their eyelashes in debt to the point at which living a billionaire lifestyle on the 24/7 is no longer feasible. The burlap-bag Trump suits and neckties whose ends are attached with scotch tape are probably lazy lifestyle choices by the patriarch, but you'd think that the zygotes would travel in Gulfstreams or Cessnas or some other mini-me version of dad's Boeing 757. They may be living on scraps tossed from the windows of the castle.
posted by Gordion Knott at 8:32 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Indeed, what the fuck? One reason for this imposed parsimoniousness among the Trump rugrats might lie with their grandfather, a notorious penny-pincher who, it's claimed, would pick up unused nails lying on the floor of the incomplete apartment buildings he'd visit in his Caddy. Another might be that, as some have pointed out, the family's broke. Not "broke" broke in the sense of lacking funds for the next McDonald's happy meal, but up to their eyelashes in debt to the point at which living a billionaire lifestyle on the 24/7 is no longer feasible. The burlap-bag Trump suits and neckties whose ends are attached with scotch tape are probably lazy lifestyle choices by the patriarch, but you'd think that the zygotes would travel in Gulfstreams or Cessnas or some other mini-me version of dad's Boeing 757. They may be living on scraps tossed from the windows of the castle.
posted by Gordion Knott at 8:32 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's incorrect. The or is supposed to be an or.
Section 4 of the 25th Am. has never been invoked. It's really meant to address succession in situations of incapacity or vacancy the Constitution previously didn't, not incompetence or unpopularity. The GOP would be crossing a serious Constitutional rubicon if they used it to boot Trump and install Pence.
And although fantastical under normal circumstances, I wonder if that's part of the reason for the bizzaro-world Cabinet picks.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:34 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Section 4 of the 25th Am. has never been invoked. It's really meant to address succession in situations of incapacity or vacancy the Constitution previously didn't, not incompetence or unpopularity. The GOP would be crossing a serious Constitutional rubicon if they used it to boot Trump and install Pence.
And although fantastical under normal circumstances, I wonder if that's part of the reason for the bizzaro-world Cabinet picks.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:34 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
One reason for this imposed parsimoniousness among the Trump rugrats might lie with their grandfather
The obvious reason is that it plays well with Trump's base, just like Sanders's penchant for flying coach did with his.
posted by Coventry at 8:40 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
The obvious reason is that it plays well with Trump's base, just like Sanders's penchant for flying coach did with his.
posted by Coventry at 8:40 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is re a deleted tweet, so who actually knows, but it's grimly amusing - "Trump almost never deletes tweets but his 2012 election night fulminations, when he mistakenly thought O lost the pop vote, are gone."
posted by Devonian at 8:46 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 8:46 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh my god, this is a real statement.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:52 AM on December 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:52 AM on December 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
So basically we're going to have at least a limited nuclear exchange some time in the next eight years, right? This is a thing? Because we can't really expect Trump not to use nuclear weapons for all eight years. He's just going to decide to nuke Tehran in a fit of pique, and that's if we're lucky enough that he doesn't decide to nuke Beijing, at which point we literally all die. The good option is that he uses a small nuclear weapon on an enemy state and kills hundreds of thousands of people because he's mad at their government, isn't it? And if we're lucky, he'll bomb someone who can't bomb us back, so there won't be any real escalation?
Like, basically within the next decade we can confidently expect that several city regions worldwide will be destroyed by nuclear weapons, pretty much? (This is a plot point in Jo Walton's My Real Children, if anyone is looking for a less depressing version.)
I just can't even get my head around this. The last time nuclear war was a real threat, I was too little to have more than a generalized worry about it.
Would pulling a "all major film-makers produce anti-nuclear war material for like four years until the president realizes that nuclear war is a bad idea" thing like with Reagan work at all? I mean, Trump is actually worse than Reagan.
posted by Frowner at 8:56 AM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
Like, basically within the next decade we can confidently expect that several city regions worldwide will be destroyed by nuclear weapons, pretty much? (This is a plot point in Jo Walton's My Real Children, if anyone is looking for a less depressing version.)
I just can't even get my head around this. The last time nuclear war was a real threat, I was too little to have more than a generalized worry about it.
Would pulling a "all major film-makers produce anti-nuclear war material for like four years until the president realizes that nuclear war is a bad idea" thing like with Reagan work at all? I mean, Trump is actually worse than Reagan.
posted by Frowner at 8:56 AM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
I've not looked up the recent count, but last I saw, the US has something like 2k+ nukes. This is absurd, and has always been absurd. A modest number of destroy everything bombs is more than sufficient, even if I prefer none at all.
Seriously, how much in manentenance per year are we talking?
posted by Strange_Robinson at 8:59 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seriously, how much in manentenance per year are we talking?
posted by Strange_Robinson at 8:59 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is re a deleted tweet, so who actually knows, but it's grimly amusing - "Trump almost never deletes tweets but his 2012 election night fulminations, when he mistakenly thought O lost the pop vote, are gone."
Oh, I saw those tweets in real time. They were hilarious at the time.
Now just one more thing that's going to drive him to murder us all, I guess.
posted by Artw at 9:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, I saw those tweets in real time. They were hilarious at the time.
Now just one more thing that's going to drive him to murder us all, I guess.
posted by Artw at 9:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
For those who wish to be terrified by nuke maintenance anecdotes and wonder how we survived so far I thoroughly recommend the book "Command and Control" by Eric Schlosser.
posted by Artw at 9:02 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:02 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
The good option is that he uses a small nuclear weapon on an enemy state and kills hundreds of thousands of people because he's mad at their government, isn't it? And if we're lucky, he'll bomb someone who can't bomb us back, so there won't be any real escalation?
I think that if he does push the button, the best case scenario would be something like detonating one off the coast of North Korea as a dumb display of strength, maybe in response to saber rattling. That impulse-nuke scenario also has the best chance of having no interference from anyone in the chain of command since it doesn't necessary end in a full nuclear exchange. That's not particularly good for "the good option," though.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:03 AM on December 25, 2016
I think that if he does push the button, the best case scenario would be something like detonating one off the coast of North Korea as a dumb display of strength, maybe in response to saber rattling. That impulse-nuke scenario also has the best chance of having no interference from anyone in the chain of command since it doesn't necessary end in a full nuclear exchange. That's not particularly good for "the good option," though.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:03 AM on December 25, 2016
Also that Priebus statement is extremely theologically unsound and actually really offends me as someone who was raised Christian. Even if Trump were a wonderful human being, comparing him to Christ would be grotesque and offensive. Saying that a mere temporal ruler is equivalent to the son of god is actually blasphemy and so fucking stupid that I can't even, and I've been an atheist these twenty five years. Either Christianity means something about the eternal or it's nothing at all - you can't run your garbage mouth saying that Trump is literal Jesus.
Anyway, we should all be really scared if Christians really think the Second Coming has sprung. That actually really, really scares me a lot.
posted by Frowner at 9:04 AM on December 25, 2016 [34 favorites]
Anyway, we should all be really scared if Christians really think the Second Coming has sprung. That actually really, really scares me a lot.
posted by Frowner at 9:04 AM on December 25, 2016 [34 favorites]
He's pissed at Scotland for not removing a windfarm next to his golf course, so we're pretty sure we're on the list to receive one of Edward Teller's buckets of sunshine.
posted by Devonian at 9:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 9:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you'd told me even seven years ago that we'd all be living at the mercy of of Donald Fucking Trump, he of kitsch TV shows and stupid hair, and that he would be at the head of a rabble of assembled white supremacists, greedy billionaires, and warmongers as frightening as he is, I wouldn't have believed you.
I've seen a lot of psychoanalyses of Trump, but I think what's wrong with him is much simpler than that. It isn't being rich, although the money enables him. He's a brat who never grew up and is used to screaming and crying to get his way, probably spoiled by his parents the way he spoiled his adult children and will spoil his grandchildren. I feel sorry for them for that reason. Him not so much - he's a 70-year-old man with the life experience and time to learn better if he chose or wanted to. And for whatever reason - the pervasive idea that the rich had to earn their money or had to be good or smart people to make it, the snowball of celebrity, his status as America's id - the world caves to him and gives him whatever he wants.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
I've seen a lot of psychoanalyses of Trump, but I think what's wrong with him is much simpler than that. It isn't being rich, although the money enables him. He's a brat who never grew up and is used to screaming and crying to get his way, probably spoiled by his parents the way he spoiled his adult children and will spoil his grandchildren. I feel sorry for them for that reason. Him not so much - he's a 70-year-old man with the life experience and time to learn better if he chose or wanted to. And for whatever reason - the pervasive idea that the rich had to earn their money or had to be good or smart people to make it, the snowball of celebrity, his status as America's id - the world caves to him and gives him whatever he wants.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:05 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
up to their eyelashes in debt to the point at which living a billionaire lifestyle on the 24/7 is no longer feasible
Up to their eyelashes in debt? Yep.
This from August 2016:
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:08 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Up to their eyelashes in debt? Yep.
This from August 2016:
But an investigation by The New York Times into the financial maze of Mr. Trump’s real estate holdings in the United States reveals that companies he owns have at least $650 million in debt — twice the amount than can be gleaned from public filings he has made as part of his bid for the White House. The Times’s inquiry also found that Mr. Trump’s fortunes depend deeply on a wide array of financial backers, including one he has cited in attacks during his campaign. (Bold, my emphasis)That 650 million is just on the holdings in the US. Then there's all the rest of the world.
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:08 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
So basically we're going to have at least a limited nuclear exchange some time in the next eight years, right?
There's no evidence that such a thing as a "limited" nuclear exchange is even possible, no evidence that any situation would not escalate to a complete exchange.
Oh, and Merry Christmas, all!
posted by indubitable at 9:12 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's no evidence that such a thing as a "limited" nuclear exchange is even possible, no evidence that any situation would not escalate to a complete exchange.
Oh, and Merry Christmas, all!
posted by indubitable at 9:12 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
The thing is, right now I am so worried that I am not even talking to my family or close friends about it, because I feel like the world is so dark and there's so little that we can do about it that there's no sense in ruining the last good times for them. If we all die in a nuclear war, or of a pandemic that could have been contained, or we're all massacred by right wing troops, or even if we're all just unemployed and/or sick and disabled and homeless after Trump wrecks the universities and crashes the economy, or god forbid if we're all tortured by Jesus nutters who think the world has ended and they're personally entitled to lake-of-fire us (which is a new worry, I have to say!), what's the point of ruining the last few months? All last night all I could think of was god knows where we'll all be in a year or two, maybe dead.
posted by Frowner at 9:13 AM on December 25, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 9:13 AM on December 25, 2016 [16 favorites]
I suffer depression with frequent suicidal ideation. I know shit is bad because the thought of global thermonuclear war mashes the suicidal part of my brain positively giddy. Like "stop thinking about killing yourself it will happen soon anyways! Hurray!" This is a whole new and unexpected psychological development and one that scares the poop out of me.
On the other hand, the alternative to global destruction - specifically USA under the current Republican agenda - is horrifying to contemplate so the thing in fighting against is that the certainty of radioactive holocaust might make me complacent as they gut civil rights and everything good about America.
So my Christmas wish is that we all stay active to protect who and what we can and push for a better world no matter what. I can't stop the bombs but I can fight to protect our lives and freedoms.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:20 AM on December 25, 2016 [30 favorites]
On the other hand, the alternative to global destruction - specifically USA under the current Republican agenda - is horrifying to contemplate so the thing in fighting against is that the certainty of radioactive holocaust might make me complacent as they gut civil rights and everything good about America.
So my Christmas wish is that we all stay active to protect who and what we can and push for a better world no matter what. I can't stop the bombs but I can fight to protect our lives and freedoms.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:20 AM on December 25, 2016 [30 favorites]
what's the point of ruining the last few months? All last night all I could think of was god knows where we'll all be in a year or two, maybe dead
For me, a good middle ground between "scream to them right now that we're all about to die" and "allow them to enjoy safety and food and survivable temperatures while these things exist" is to wait to engage with them until he gets into power and starts acting in an official capacity on his inclination to destroy the country and world. The end-state of all the (very plausible) catastrophic scenarios you listed would not likely come immediately. In that period there are still chances to prevent or reduce human suffering and they are worth remembering.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:25 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
For me, a good middle ground between "scream to them right now that we're all about to die" and "allow them to enjoy safety and food and survivable temperatures while these things exist" is to wait to engage with them until he gets into power and starts acting in an official capacity on his inclination to destroy the country and world. The end-state of all the (very plausible) catastrophic scenarios you listed would not likely come immediately. In that period there are still chances to prevent or reduce human suffering and they are worth remembering.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:25 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
We should really have a pool for the first country to be hit by a nuclear weapon after Trump's inauguration. My moneys on North Korea.
Oh, MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE.
posted by Justinian at 9:33 AM on December 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
Oh, MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE.
posted by Justinian at 9:33 AM on December 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
The thing is, right now I am so worried that I am not even talking to my family or close friends about it, because I feel like the world is so dark and there's so little that we can do about it that there's no sense in ruining the last good times for them
I've been thinking about this a lot this Christmas season and I keep thinking of the prologue in Things To Come: the last Christmas before the Great War. (Cf. the last lovely summer of 1914.)
On the other hand, I firmly believe that it's important not just for my mental health, but politically, also, not to let myself become paralyzed by catastrophic fears. That way lies madness and worse, passivity. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil therof" is my mantra. (Well, that and "The Force is one. I am one with the Force.")
posted by octobersurprise at 9:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've been thinking about this a lot this Christmas season and I keep thinking of the prologue in Things To Come: the last Christmas before the Great War. (Cf. the last lovely summer of 1914.)
On the other hand, I firmly believe that it's important not just for my mental health, but politically, also, not to let myself become paralyzed by catastrophic fears. That way lies madness and worse, passivity. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil therof" is my mantra. (Well, that and "The Force is one. I am one with the Force.")
posted by octobersurprise at 9:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
I suffer depression with frequent suicidal ideation.
This is my first year alone on Christmas since my marriage and family collapsed, and I'll admit, I'm locked in a wrestling match with that big ugly bear myself this year, and one of the things I'm most grateful for this year is that I never bought a gun for home protection because the impulse to die is pretty damn hard to shake once it sets in, but remember, Trump and his supporters think it's funny to make liberals miserable, so don't give in! There will be another day and the fight will go on. With a little luck, Trump's impulsivity and lack of self discipline will undo him sooner than later. Realistically, there are still many losing years ahead, politically, in the U.S. The lock Republicans have achieved on the state houses and redistricting processes is just too deeply entrenched to undo without many years of concerted effort and grass roots campaigning. My guess is Global Warming feedback effects are going to catch up with us and steal the momentum from whatever political narrative either party might want to craft. World war seems like an objective for some right now, and I suspect some of our elites are eagerly looking forward to those developments as opportunities to make the kinds of natural resources (fossil fuels) and the forms of power they control (military muscle) valuable and relevant to the future again. That's the kind of greatness our orange tinted leader seems to have in mind: military might and the various obsessions with physical perfection and in taking forceful, decisive actions that have always characterized the authoritarian mindset.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is my first year alone on Christmas since my marriage and family collapsed, and I'll admit, I'm locked in a wrestling match with that big ugly bear myself this year, and one of the things I'm most grateful for this year is that I never bought a gun for home protection because the impulse to die is pretty damn hard to shake once it sets in, but remember, Trump and his supporters think it's funny to make liberals miserable, so don't give in! There will be another day and the fight will go on. With a little luck, Trump's impulsivity and lack of self discipline will undo him sooner than later. Realistically, there are still many losing years ahead, politically, in the U.S. The lock Republicans have achieved on the state houses and redistricting processes is just too deeply entrenched to undo without many years of concerted effort and grass roots campaigning. My guess is Global Warming feedback effects are going to catch up with us and steal the momentum from whatever political narrative either party might want to craft. World war seems like an objective for some right now, and I suspect some of our elites are eagerly looking forward to those developments as opportunities to make the kinds of natural resources (fossil fuels) and the forms of power they control (military muscle) valuable and relevant to the future again. That's the kind of greatness our orange tinted leader seems to have in mind: military might and the various obsessions with physical perfection and in taking forceful, decisive actions that have always characterized the authoritarian mindset.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
If I'm reading the 25th Amendment properly the "or" should be an "and"—to permanently declare the President unfit requires the cooperation of the Vice President, a majority of cabinet heads, and Congress.
Looking at the second paragraph of Section 4, it appears that if the President contests the declaration of unfitness then Congress is the ultimate arbiter. So yes, it could require either 1) the VP and Congress (from the start); 2) or the VP and the Cabinet at first and then Congress. So it could be an "and" instead of an "or".
Full text of Section 4:
Looking at the second paragraph of Section 4, it appears that if the President contests the declaration of unfitness then Congress is the ultimate arbiter. So yes, it could require either 1) the VP and Congress (from the start); 2) or the VP and the Cabinet at first and then Congress. So it could be an "and" instead of an "or".
Full text of Section 4:
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:50 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
In Trump's case, should his Secretary of Defense refuse the order, then there would likely be some largely extra-constitutional battle behind the scenes
If Mattis truly disagreed, the battle would be over quickly.
If confirmed, Mattis would need to simultaneously take out the Treasury Secretary, Secretary of State, President pro tempore of the Senate, the Speaker of the House, the Vice President, and the President, in order to assume the highest office in the land…Experts say that Mattis dropping six people who have no military training would be a “walk in the park,” compared to his usual average of 12 kills per day. They went on to say that Mattis exterminating a bunch of tubby civilians would be roughly equivalent to him taking a bath or making toast, in terms of difficulty.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:55 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
If Mattis truly disagreed, the battle would be over quickly.
If confirmed, Mattis would need to simultaneously take out the Treasury Secretary, Secretary of State, President pro tempore of the Senate, the Speaker of the House, the Vice President, and the President, in order to assume the highest office in the land…Experts say that Mattis dropping six people who have no military training would be a “walk in the park,” compared to his usual average of 12 kills per day. They went on to say that Mattis exterminating a bunch of tubby civilians would be roughly equivalent to him taking a bath or making toast, in terms of difficulty.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:55 AM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's not about us taking his nuclear talk seriously, it's about the rest of the world's perception of his crazy talk.
Does anyone think that any world leader doesn't see through him already?
You'd think, and for the most part yeah. But Pakistan didn't even bother to fact-check a fucking fake news story before making a threat to Israel on Twitter. (So now these talks are happening on fucking Twitter?)
I'm also concerned about North Korea.
And for the record, yes, Trump's willingness to launch also scares the living crap out of me. I do take that very seriously; I was just referencing someone else's comment about not being able to take him seriously. I think the business about not taking him seriously is denial.
I wish to God that tweet had happened before the Electoral College voted; maybe (in my dreams) they would've really thought again.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 10:02 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
Does anyone think that any world leader doesn't see through him already?
You'd think, and for the most part yeah. But Pakistan didn't even bother to fact-check a fucking fake news story before making a threat to Israel on Twitter. (So now these talks are happening on fucking Twitter?)
I'm also concerned about North Korea.
And for the record, yes, Trump's willingness to launch also scares the living crap out of me. I do take that very seriously; I was just referencing someone else's comment about not being able to take him seriously. I think the business about not taking him seriously is denial.
I wish to God that tweet had happened before the Electoral College voted; maybe (in my dreams) they would've really thought again.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 10:02 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
RNC Declares Trump "New King" In Creepy Christmas Message
“Merry Christmas to all! Over two millennia ago, a new hope was born into the world, a Savior who would offer the promise of salvation to all mankind. Just as the three wise men did on that night, this Christmas heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a new King. We hope Americans celebrating Christmas today will enjoy a day of festivities and a renewed closeness with family and friends.
posted by futz at 10:17 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
“Merry Christmas to all! Over two millennia ago, a new hope was born into the world, a Savior who would offer the promise of salvation to all mankind. Just as the three wise men did on that night, this Christmas heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a new King. We hope Americans celebrating Christmas today will enjoy a day of festivities and a renewed closeness with family and friends.
posted by futz at 10:17 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Schoolhouse Rock - No More Kings (there's also a nifty Pavement cover)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:23 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:23 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
you have to twist that statement pretty damn hard to conclude they are declaring trump the king. it's a bog standard christian trope. please stop being silly.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's a bog standard Christian trope that butts up pretty conspicuously against the founding language and philosophy of the nation he's been elected to lead. I don't think most folks think most folks think he's being coronated, but it's an audacious bit of phrasing from folks nominally inclined toward small government and deserves some eye-popping mockery.
posted by cortex at 10:26 AM on December 25, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by cortex at 10:26 AM on December 25, 2016 [40 favorites]
No, the concurrence (agreement) of the Secretary of Defense is not required. The legal requirement of the Secretary of Defense is to execute the order whether he agrees or not. That is his sworn duty. You are suggesting that the Secretary of Defense might defy an order but that is quite different than saying that he must concur. Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, you should expect the Secretary of Defense to dutifully execute an order, the same as everyone else in the chain of command. And anyone who refuses would be instantly dismissed and replaced. In the military, concurrence with orders is not required.
Eh, I'm not going to haggle over terms here since it works out about the same, the President requires a second, if the Secretary, however one determines his legal requirement, refuses, then someone else must be found to take his place.
Once you reach a situation where a Secretary of Defense refuses the order to launch you are pretty much automatically in a situation beyond legality as the debate between his role as a safety and as an automatic actor will be unlikely to ever be adjudicated due to, you know, nuclear war.
Requiring a second carries the implicit possibility of refusal, so that is always a possibility and is arguably a feature built in as a guard against a rogue president, but as a refusal would likely end up with either the President removed from office or dead or the Secretary the same, the debate is mooted by the choices of the others involved who would choose a side. That would likely end in a launch, but not as an absolute certainty since the President himself cannot launch without a second. (With assholes like Michael Flynn around, finding one won't be hard of course, but that's a different thing entirely.)
posted by gusottertrout at 10:31 AM on December 25, 2016
Eh, I'm not going to haggle over terms here since it works out about the same, the President requires a second, if the Secretary, however one determines his legal requirement, refuses, then someone else must be found to take his place.
Once you reach a situation where a Secretary of Defense refuses the order to launch you are pretty much automatically in a situation beyond legality as the debate between his role as a safety and as an automatic actor will be unlikely to ever be adjudicated due to, you know, nuclear war.
Requiring a second carries the implicit possibility of refusal, so that is always a possibility and is arguably a feature built in as a guard against a rogue president, but as a refusal would likely end up with either the President removed from office or dead or the Secretary the same, the debate is mooted by the choices of the others involved who would choose a side. That would likely end in a launch, but not as an absolute certainty since the President himself cannot launch without a second. (With assholes like Michael Flynn around, finding one won't be hard of course, but that's a different thing entirely.)
posted by gusottertrout at 10:31 AM on December 25, 2016
twist that much further and you're going to break it cortex.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:31 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:31 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
God rest ye, merry gentleman.
posted by cortex at 10:32 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex at 10:32 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also see no reason to assume that the "new king" that's being referred to in the statement is Trump and not, you know, the newborn baby whom Christians consider to be the King of Kings and whose natal feast day is today.
It has nothing to do with politics at all (aside from the the fact that conservative politicians typically feel a need to assert their conservative Christian bonafides). I can see how the interpretation is theoretically there, but it's a leap that I am pretty confident was not intended.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:35 AM on December 25, 2016
It has nothing to do with politics at all (aside from the the fact that conservative politicians typically feel a need to assert their conservative Christian bonafides). I can see how the interpretation is theoretically there, but it's a leap that I am pretty confident was not intended.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:35 AM on December 25, 2016
Whatever the RNC's intention with the regal verbage, I can't help but notice they herald "salvation to all mankind" but left out the "peace on earth and good will" part.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
Probably a stupid question, but is the GOP officially a Christian party now?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:44 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:44 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's not a stupid question, but now the answer...
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:45 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:45 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
See, to me phrasing something so that it compares Trump to Jesus (which you cannot convince me is unintentional) is what's offensive, and frankly would have flown with about zero of the Christians I knew growing up, and they were by no means all liberal Christians. Not even because Trump is Trump, but because God is all-knowing and all-compassionate beyond what any human could achieve ever, and to presume to say that a human can see and judge in the way that God sees and judges is...I mean, it's one of the worst, most un-Christian things you can say. At the very least, it did not used to be typical of Christian political discourse, even conservative discourse.
posted by Frowner at 10:52 AM on December 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:52 AM on December 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
Christians worship God because God is all-knowing and all-compassionate, etc. God isn't just powerful but good, and saying that a temporal ruler is God-like is - or used to be, at least - disgusting and offensive.
posted by Frowner at 10:54 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:54 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
Man that RP tweet is like some weird Dark Tower reference, where you're reading one of SK's books and the protagonist has some slight connection to Roland's fate and it's like CRIMSON KING oh not the Dark Tower again.
posted by angrycat at 10:57 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 10:57 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
The king phrasing reads to me as someone without a religious background but a lifetime of experience with the GOP as another of their attempts to set up either a 'lol pissed off the libs!' sort of thing or yet another attempt to fight the fake war on Christmas. Honestly and sadly, sincerity is way down the list of potential explanations.
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
RNC Declares Trump "New King" In Creepy Christmas Message
Good thing you're not selling out your immortal soul for temporal power or anything.
posted by Talez at 11:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Good thing you're not selling out your immortal soul for temporal power or anything.
posted by Talez at 11:00 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I agree with all that, Frowner, except for your assumption that the RNC meant at all to issue anything other than a standard Christmas greeting.
I mean, the offending sentence: "Just as the three wise men did on that night, this Christmas heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a new King" could just as easily be rewritten to be an Easter message: "Just as the women did on that morning, this Easter heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a risen Lord". It wouldn't be a veiled reference to Trump even if, say, he happened to be experiencing a bounce in the polls at the moment.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:04 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, the offending sentence: "Just as the three wise men did on that night, this Christmas heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a new King" could just as easily be rewritten to be an Easter message: "Just as the women did on that morning, this Easter heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a risen Lord". It wouldn't be a veiled reference to Trump even if, say, he happened to be experiencing a bounce in the polls at the moment.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:04 AM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Probably a stupid question, but is the GOP officially a Christian party now?
During one of the pre-RNC events I worked this summer, obvious anagram Reince Preibus stood up in front of a bunch of delegates and said (paraphrasing), "We have been called by God to undertake a great mission to restore this nation."
So, yeah, at least in private they make no bones about considering themselves the "real" Christian party.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:06 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
During one of the pre-RNC events I worked this summer, obvious anagram Reince Preibus stood up in front of a bunch of delegates and said (paraphrasing), "We have been called by God to undertake a great mission to restore this nation."
So, yeah, at least in private they make no bones about considering themselves the "real" Christian party.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:06 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
Trump protesters plan to open 'movement house' in Washington DC
A group of millennial activists from across the country plan to open a “movement house” in Washington DC next month, which will serve as a permanent base to protest Donald Trump’s presidency.
The organizers are mostly women of color, many of whom campaigned for Bernie Sanders during the Democratic primary.
posted by futz at 11:07 AM on December 25, 2016 [22 favorites]
A group of millennial activists from across the country plan to open a “movement house” in Washington DC next month, which will serve as a permanent base to protest Donald Trump’s presidency.
The organizers are mostly women of color, many of whom campaigned for Bernie Sanders during the Democratic primary.
posted by futz at 11:07 AM on December 25, 2016 [22 favorites]
I mean, I guess I didn't realize that their God was quite so explicitly a Christian God, no other religions need apply. But I guess they're no longer even gesturing to inclusivity.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:09 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:09 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
phrasing something so that it compares Trump to Jesus is what's offensive
Aren't you supposed to see Christ in the least of God's chlidren or something?
posted by Coventry at 11:15 AM on December 25, 2016
Aren't you supposed to see Christ in the least of God's chlidren or something?
posted by Coventry at 11:15 AM on December 25, 2016
Gotta say, all this baby Jesus talk is making me feel way more warm 'n' fuzzy about the little statue of Baphomet my partner got me for Christmas. It is now sitting in pride of place among the patrons of democracy saint candles we made for the eve of the election, flanked by the two additional candles I got from assorted affectionate friends featuring Lin-Manuel Miranda and Charles Darwin. (We also have St. Jude, Harriet Tubman, Maya Angelou, Susan B. Anthony, Jane Addams, and Thaddeus Stevens; and I need to make the Barbara Jordan one back from where the cats knocked it down and broke it.) In a few hours we will have a strays' holiday meal, open to anyone in our circle of friends or friends-of-friends who needs a place to eat for the evening, in accordance with our household dedication to the tenet of compassion.
If I need to rely on my own organized religion for support, having tangible markers of that faith in compassion, justice, bodily integrity, freedom, science, human error, and reason makes me feel just that little bit safer about my ability to do so. I am, for all my laughter, absolutely and unerringly sincere in my faith in those tenets of humanity. And if I don't need it--as I hope I won't--well, it's good to have reminders that I stand for something, to help me choose what is right in hard times.
If the Republican Party wants to promote its status as the party of sincere adherents to one faith, well. Two can certainly play at that game.
posted by sciatrix at 11:19 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
If I need to rely on my own organized religion for support, having tangible markers of that faith in compassion, justice, bodily integrity, freedom, science, human error, and reason makes me feel just that little bit safer about my ability to do so. I am, for all my laughter, absolutely and unerringly sincere in my faith in those tenets of humanity. And if I don't need it--as I hope I won't--well, it's good to have reminders that I stand for something, to help me choose what is right in hard times.
If the Republican Party wants to promote its status as the party of sincere adherents to one faith, well. Two can certainly play at that game.
posted by sciatrix at 11:19 AM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
Probably a stupid question, but is the GOP officially a Christian party now?
Dozens Of Members Of Congress Met With Religious Right Pastors To Drive Satan Out Of Power In The Capitol
Kistler revealed that U.S. Senate Chaplain Barry Black preached to participants and reportedly prophesied that a revival is about to sweep America and “it will commence … in the halls of Congress” and Walker concurred.
Kistler also revealed that in addition to praying in the Kennedy Caucus Room in the Capitol, pastors were given access to the U.S. Senate chamber by Rep. Louie Gohmert. In the senate chamber, he said, “we got on our knees … and it sounded almost like a labor room as people were crying out to God for the revival that Chaplain Black believes is coming and that we believe is coming.”
Soooooo yeah.
posted by futz at 11:19 AM on December 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
Dozens Of Members Of Congress Met With Religious Right Pastors To Drive Satan Out Of Power In The Capitol
Kistler revealed that U.S. Senate Chaplain Barry Black preached to participants and reportedly prophesied that a revival is about to sweep America and “it will commence … in the halls of Congress” and Walker concurred.
Kistler also revealed that in addition to praying in the Kennedy Caucus Room in the Capitol, pastors were given access to the U.S. Senate chamber by Rep. Louie Gohmert. In the senate chamber, he said, “we got on our knees … and it sounded almost like a labor room as people were crying out to God for the revival that Chaplain Black believes is coming and that we believe is coming.”
Soooooo yeah.
posted by futz at 11:19 AM on December 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
I keep reading that as "the promise of salivation." Pavlov, is that you?
posted by GrammarMoses at 11:19 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by GrammarMoses at 11:19 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
In some ways total nuclear war is the least of my worries because we are in the "incinerated immediately" zone and so if it happens there is no planning to do or steps to take. It's like planning for the Yellowstone Caldera to go. Not a damn thing to be done.
At some point I got past the visceral terror I felt Nov. 8 and am on to "do what I can/acceptance." Not apathy. Not despair. Just doing what I can, as though there were a hope of pulling out of this for my country/the world. Faith, false optimism, stubbornness, whatever you want to call it. I fully acknowledge I could be wrong.
But if this is my last few years on earth, I won't regret spending them doing that. If it's not and I can do some good, then my life will definitely have had meaning and so I won't regret that either.
I really hope it's the second one.
posted by emjaybee at 11:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
At some point I got past the visceral terror I felt Nov. 8 and am on to "do what I can/acceptance." Not apathy. Not despair. Just doing what I can, as though there were a hope of pulling out of this for my country/the world. Faith, false optimism, stubbornness, whatever you want to call it. I fully acknowledge I could be wrong.
But if this is my last few years on earth, I won't regret spending them doing that. If it's not and I can do some good, then my life will definitely have had meaning and so I won't regret that either.
I really hope it's the second one.
posted by emjaybee at 11:24 AM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
I guess I didn't realize that their God was quite so explicitly a Christian God, no other religions need apply. But I guess they're no longer even gesturing to inclusivity.
They also welcome conservative Jews and agnostics/atheists that are willing to keep quiet in order to gain economically from their policies. It will be interesting (for perhaps Chinese definitions of interesting) to see if they start to align with conservative Hindus. Politically they line up fairly well but I don't know if openly embracing a polytheistic religion would alienate the conservative Christian base to the point they won't risk it.
posted by Candleman at 11:26 AM on December 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
They also welcome conservative Jews and agnostics/atheists that are willing to keep quiet in order to gain economically from their policies. It will be interesting (for perhaps Chinese definitions of interesting) to see if they start to align with conservative Hindus. Politically they line up fairly well but I don't know if openly embracing a polytheistic religion would alienate the conservative Christian base to the point they won't risk it.
posted by Candleman at 11:26 AM on December 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
Probably a stupid question, but is the GOP officially a Christian party now?
White evangelical Christian party, but they've been that way since at least Reagan.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
White evangelical Christian party, but they've been that way since at least Reagan.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Wait, Lin-Manuel Miranda has his own candle?!
Okay, one happy distraction moment there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Okay, one happy distraction moment there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, it's definitely instructive to compare the Christmas message (which includes the theological claim that Jesus is King) with the Hanukkah message:
*note, of course, that this is borrowed from religious vocabulary
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
“As our Jewish friends and family around the country gather to light the first candle, we hope they will enjoy a special time of closeness and joy this Hanukkah season. These eight nights serve as a reminder of how the Maccabees never gave up hope amidst danger and uncertainty, and each year the Festival of Lights is a time to reflect on the power of faith and perseverance.Which implies that "we" (i.e., the RNC and Republicans generally) accept Christian theological claims and merely "have Jewish friends and family". It's implicitly saying that it may be okay for people of other faiths (or no faith) to be a part of "our party" -- which they then equate to being a real American, of course -- but that in order to be accepted, you have to acknowledge the public status of Christian theological claims. "Jesus is Lord" goes in the bin of mandatory Republican orthodoxies* right along with "Lower taxes always good" and "socialism is bad".
*note, of course, that this is borrowed from religious vocabulary
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:36 AM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
Directly from the 2016 Republican platform (PDF link):
posted by soundguy99 at 11:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
We support the public display of the Ten Commandments as a reflection of our history and our country’s Judeo-Christian heritage and further affirm the rights of religious students to engage in voluntary prayer at public school events and to have equal access to school facilities.I mean, I think that's about as close as you can come to openly stating "WE ARE CHRISTIANS" without actually starting to debate dogma or doctrine.
We support the rights of conscience of military chaplains of all faiths to practice their faith free from political interference. We reject attempts by the Obama Administration to censure and silence them, particularly Christians and Christian chaplains. We support an increase in the size of the Chaplain Corps. A Republican commander-in- chief will protect the religious freedom of all military members, especially chaplains, and will not tolerate attempts to ban Bibles or religious symbols from military facilities.
Defending International Religious Freedom
The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, an initiative of Congressional Republicans, has been neglected by the current Administration at a time when its voice more than ever needs to be heard. Religious minorities across the Middle East have been driven from their ancient homelands, and thousands, there and in Africa, have been slaughtered for their faith in what the State Department has, belatedly, labeled genocide. The United States must stand with leaders, like President Sisi of Egypt who has bravely protected the rights of Coptic Christians in Egypt, and call on other leaders across the region to ensure that all religious minorities, whether Yazidi, Bahai, Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant Christians, are free to practice their religion without fear of persecution. At a time when China has renewed its destruction of churches, Christian home-schooling parents are jailed in parts of Europe, and even Canada threatens pastors for their preaching, a Republican administration will return the advocacy of religious liberty to a central place in its diplomacy,
posted by soundguy99 at 11:43 AM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
It is a fact that Muslim delegates to the RNC ( yes there were a few...) felt unsafe on the floor and only came out for votes.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:48 AM on December 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:48 AM on December 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
WaPo No survivors found after Russian military plane with 92 on board crashes en route to Syria
The Defense Ministry published on its website a list of passengers, who included members of the famed Alexandrov ensemble, better known internationally as the Red Army Choir, heading to Syria to entertain troops for the coming New Year holiday. Among those who were aboard the plane, according to the lists, was artistic director Valery Khalilov. Nine Russian journalists were also among the passengers.
65 members of the choir were killed.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:00 AM on December 25
Sramota! I love the Red Army Chorus!! :(
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:50 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Defense Ministry published on its website a list of passengers, who included members of the famed Alexandrov ensemble, better known internationally as the Red Army Choir, heading to Syria to entertain troops for the coming New Year holiday. Among those who were aboard the plane, according to the lists, was artistic director Valery Khalilov. Nine Russian journalists were also among the passengers.
65 members of the choir were killed.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:00 AM on December 25
Sramota! I love the Red Army Chorus!! :(
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:50 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
feel way more warm 'n' fuzzy about the little statue of Baphomet
i love you
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:51 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
i love you
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:51 AM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wait, Lin-Manuel Miranda has his own candle?!
The one my friend got me came out of a local Austin outfit called Illuminidol. It's perhaps worth noting that it wasn't so much intended as a gift for me specifically as "it turned up at a white elephant hosted by a friend, and despite being easily the most contested item in the party I successfully won it for myself."
I regret nothing.
posted by sciatrix at 12:02 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
The one my friend got me came out of a local Austin outfit called Illuminidol. It's perhaps worth noting that it wasn't so much intended as a gift for me specifically as "it turned up at a white elephant hosted by a friend, and despite being easily the most contested item in the party I successfully won it for myself."
I regret nothing.
posted by sciatrix at 12:02 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
That is one sweet fucking candle! (And the idea of the candles in general is also cool.) Thanks!
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:14 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:14 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
I also see no reason to assume that the "new king" that's being referred to in the statement is Trump and not, you know, the newborn baby whom Christians consider to be the King of Kings and whose natal feast day is today
Now nothing says Christmas day like drinking mimosas and arguing if a spokesman for one of America's governing parties really means to compare his party's President-Elect to the Son of God or not, but IME, Christians may refer to Jesus as "the King," but they much less commonly refer to him as "a new king." Jesus is not "a new king" because (like Elvis) he has always been the King.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:15 PM on December 25, 2016 [17 favorites]
Now nothing says Christmas day like drinking mimosas and arguing if a spokesman for one of America's governing parties really means to compare his party's President-Elect to the Son of God or not, but IME, Christians may refer to Jesus as "the King," but they much less commonly refer to him as "a new king." Jesus is not "a new king" because (like Elvis) he has always been the King.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:15 PM on December 25, 2016 [17 favorites]
Of course, Sean Spicer has already declared the whole controversy "an attack on Christ."
posted by octobersurprise at 12:35 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's sad that @BuzzFeedBen condones this attack on Christ on such a holy day for Christians. @BuzzFeed must apologizeSo maybe we should stop here before we're all branded heretics and the 1st Twitter Crusade begins.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:35 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
IME, Christians may refer to Jesus as "the King," but they much less commonly refer to him as "a new king." Jesus is not "a new king" because (like Elvis) he has always been the King.
but... today, specifically, Jesus is the new[born] King. It is pretty typical in the Christian tradition to use the present tense when referring to events which happened in the past but are commemorated on this day.
Again, I do see how people are reading this sentence differently but I am pretty sure that this isn't the meaning that was intended, even obliquely or as some sort of mean-spirited dogwhistle, and as octobersurprise notes it's already just getting sucked into the whole "democrats hate Jesus" War on Christmas black hole.
The big problem I have with that message is not that it's equating Jesus with Trump -- which, even if it were intended to do so, there's a very plausible alternate innocent explanation -- but that it's putting a supposedly secular, non-sectarian party in a legally secular country on record as taking a religious, sectarian position on a theological issue.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:52 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
but... today, specifically, Jesus is the new[born] King. It is pretty typical in the Christian tradition to use the present tense when referring to events which happened in the past but are commemorated on this day.
Again, I do see how people are reading this sentence differently but I am pretty sure that this isn't the meaning that was intended, even obliquely or as some sort of mean-spirited dogwhistle, and as octobersurprise notes it's already just getting sucked into the whole "democrats hate Jesus" War on Christmas black hole.
The big problem I have with that message is not that it's equating Jesus with Trump -- which, even if it were intended to do so, there's a very plausible alternate innocent explanation -- but that it's putting a supposedly secular, non-sectarian party in a legally secular country on record as taking a religious, sectarian position on a theological issue.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:52 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
(To clarify, I would have a big problem if I thought it was equating Jesus with Trump -- my point is that even if that was the intent, there's no way to prove that unless some RNC official were to say "yeah, that's totally what we were going for with that.")
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:54 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:54 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
So maybe we should stop here before we're all branded heretics and the 1st Twitter Crusade begins.
Oh fucking. Bring. It.
They didn't want to be accused of idolatry? Don't emphasize the time difference between when the magi celebrated their king and whatever the hell you're doing now. Learn either biblical history or fucking English, and enjoy one of the last celebrations that won't require a fucking geiger counter before you indulge.
posted by bibliowench at 12:57 PM on December 25, 2016 [16 favorites]
Oh fucking. Bring. It.
They didn't want to be accused of idolatry? Don't emphasize the time difference between when the magi celebrated their king and whatever the hell you're doing now. Learn either biblical history or fucking English, and enjoy one of the last celebrations that won't require a fucking geiger counter before you indulge.
posted by bibliowench at 12:57 PM on December 25, 2016 [16 favorites]
Did anyone else have a whole bunch of wine for lunch?
posted by bibliowench at 1:00 PM on December 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by bibliowench at 1:00 PM on December 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
Did anyone else have a whole bunch of wine for lunch?
Lunch was Prosecco with the cornish hens. Have now moved on to the wine. Happy Yule!
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:11 PM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Lunch was Prosecco with the cornish hens. Have now moved on to the wine. Happy Yule!
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:11 PM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
Jesus is not "a new king" because (like Elvis) he has always been the King.
I agree, "a new king" sounds to me like a new pharaoh rolled into town. But they capitalized "King" indicating they are talking about Jesus. "the King, King eternal, King of Glory, King of kings" would have been better. Not that I expect or desire a theological editor for all of the RNC statements.
Hey, at least no one claimed they're more popular than Jesus, right?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:27 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree, "a new king" sounds to me like a new pharaoh rolled into town. But they capitalized "King" indicating they are talking about Jesus. "the King, King eternal, King of Glory, King of kings" would have been better. Not that I expect or desire a theological editor for all of the RNC statements.
Hey, at least no one claimed they're more popular than Jesus, right?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:27 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
We support the public display of the Ten Commandments
Which version? Supporting a particular one is an unconstitutional establishment of religion.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:48 PM on December 25, 2016 [12 favorites]
Supporting a particular one is an unconstitutional establishment of religion.
They don't care, that's one of the parts of the constitution that they regularly shit upon. They follow the actual content of the constitution the same way they follow the bible - only the parts that please them and only when it's convenient.
posted by Candleman at 2:29 PM on December 25, 2016 [16 favorites]
They don't care, that's one of the parts of the constitution that they regularly shit upon. They follow the actual content of the constitution the same way they follow the bible - only the parts that please them and only when it's convenient.
posted by Candleman at 2:29 PM on December 25, 2016 [16 favorites]
Holy fuck, 2016 is not finished with us yet. George Michael died at 53.
posted by chris24 at 3:12 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 3:12 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Future According to Trump: Will Trump Make 1984 Look Like a Nursery Tale?
posted by homunculus at 3:14 PM on December 25, 2016
posted by homunculus at 3:14 PM on December 25, 2016
So the affair was between Delgado and Miller.
"The matter has caused turmoil within the Trump operation over the past week. After POLITICO reporters received an anonymous email about the alleged affair, Delgado disclosed details of the relationship to senior officials in emails Thursday, the people close to the transition said. The nature of their relationship had been known to people involved in the Trump campaign and transition for “a number of months,” one source said."
posted by chris24 at 4:27 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
"The matter has caused turmoil within the Trump operation over the past week. After POLITICO reporters received an anonymous email about the alleged affair, Delgado disclosed details of the relationship to senior officials in emails Thursday, the people close to the transition said. The nature of their relationship had been known to people involved in the Trump campaign and transition for “a number of months,” one source said."
posted by chris24 at 4:27 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I feel like a jerk for asking this, but: were there similarly alarming opinion pieces and predictions in the weeks leading up to Reagan's first term?
posted by pxe2000 at 4:45 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by pxe2000 at 4:45 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The nature of their relationship had been known to people involved in the Trump campaign and transition for “a number of months,” one source said."
No one cared in October, because they knew it wouldn't matter.
No one cared in November, because they won and they were bulletproof.
No one cared in December, because it would be easy enough to bury Delgado, because no woman could stand in their path.
And then Mrs. Miller found out or was about to, and Mrs. Miller cared. Lysistrata might end up being the way to keep the world from burning.
posted by Etrigan at 5:01 PM on December 25, 2016 [17 favorites]
No one cared in October, because they knew it wouldn't matter.
No one cared in November, because they won and they were bulletproof.
No one cared in December, because it would be easy enough to bury Delgado, because no woman could stand in their path.
And then Mrs. Miller found out or was about to, and Mrs. Miller cared. Lysistrata might end up being the way to keep the world from burning.
posted by Etrigan at 5:01 PM on December 25, 2016 [17 favorites]
@HeerJeet
We should give King Herod a chance. The promise to kill all first-born male infants was probably just campaign rhetoric.
posted by chris24 at 5:21 PM on December 25, 2016 [37 favorites]
We should give King Herod a chance. The promise to kill all first-born male infants was probably just campaign rhetoric.
posted by chris24 at 5:21 PM on December 25, 2016 [37 favorites]
Tracking how many key positions Trump has filled so far
Of 689 key positions requiring Senate confirmation…posted by kirkaracha at 5:47 PM on December 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
Awaiting announcement: 666
Nominee announced: 23
Confirmed: 0
The Senate confirmation process can begin when the newly elected 115th Congress convenes on Jan. 3, 2017 — two weeks before Trump’s inauguration. The Senate can begin holding hearings to confirm Trump’s eventual nominees during this period.
In total, the transition team may need to find appointees for 4,100 positions.
Kirkaracha, am I correct in my guess that the lack of nominations is unprecedented and problematic? What happens if there aren't enough nominees by the time Trump is inaugurated? Do the existing officers retain their posts, or what?
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:13 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:13 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Upthread somebody posted a link to an article that showed white (presumably Trump supporters) people from somewhere talking about how they should be given help but that they didn't believe their black neighbors earned or deserved it, or something along those lines. Can somebody memail it to me? Thanks.
posted by gucci mane at 6:18 PM on December 25, 2016
posted by gucci mane at 6:18 PM on December 25, 2016
Wow, I had no idea he was so behind on nominations. That's more material for my "He's knows he's going to resign/be impeached" fantasies to work on. His family isn't moving into the White House... He's not firing his private security... And he's not bothering to nominate people... Because the person who replaces him can do that?
I mean, really, these don't seem like the actions of a man who plans to serve as president for four years. It's weird.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:33 PM on December 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
I mean, really, these don't seem like the actions of a man who plans to serve as president for four years. It's weird.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:33 PM on December 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Kirkaracha, am I correct in my guess that the lack of nominations is unprecedented and problematic? What happens if there aren't enough nominees by the time Trump is inaugurated? Do the existing officers retain their posts, or what?
The positions go unfilled and work in the relevant departments comes to a complete standstill. The career bureaucrats depend on the secretaries to determine the best way to implement the president's policy and the secretary is ultimately accountable for the decisions in implementing that policy. The career civil servants won't and shouldn't do things without being told to and without knowing exactly how the president or the designated executive wants it done.
posted by Talez at 6:33 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The positions go unfilled and work in the relevant departments comes to a complete standstill. The career bureaucrats depend on the secretaries to determine the best way to implement the president's policy and the secretary is ultimately accountable for the decisions in implementing that policy. The career civil servants won't and shouldn't do things without being told to and without knowing exactly how the president or the designated executive wants it done.
posted by Talez at 6:33 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
What happens if there aren't enough nominees by the time Trump is inaugurated?
There are generally career government employees that take over command of agencies in the interim. Having things fall to these staff for a long period of time is actually the best possible scenario here.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:36 PM on December 25, 2016 [20 favorites]
There are generally career government employees that take over command of agencies in the interim. Having things fall to these staff for a long period of time is actually the best possible scenario here.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:36 PM on December 25, 2016 [20 favorites]
I feel like a jerk for asking this, but: were there similarly alarming opinion pieces and predictions in the weeks leading up to Reagan's first term?
I don't recall the predictions, but there certainly was a lot of fear, at least in the public, about having an actor in charge of nuclear weapons launches.
As an aside, I was thinking last night about the difference between Trump and Reagan (and Bush 2). Trump is too vain to accept a popular spokespuppet role, while Reagan & Bush seemed to shine, if you will, in that role. Trump reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where the ventriloquist's doll rebels and starts talking back to the puppeteer, and keeps popping up from his trunk.
He 'll probably be useful up to a point, but the impossibility of controlling him will wear them down and they might just break and oust him quickly. Pence would be a nightmare as well, but the pants-shitting thought of a nuclear Donald makes him look acceptable.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:37 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't recall the predictions, but there certainly was a lot of fear, at least in the public, about having an actor in charge of nuclear weapons launches.
As an aside, I was thinking last night about the difference between Trump and Reagan (and Bush 2). Trump is too vain to accept a popular spokespuppet role, while Reagan & Bush seemed to shine, if you will, in that role. Trump reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where the ventriloquist's doll rebels and starts talking back to the puppeteer, and keeps popping up from his trunk.
He 'll probably be useful up to a point, but the impossibility of controlling him will wear them down and they might just break and oust him quickly. Pence would be a nightmare as well, but the pants-shitting thought of a nuclear Donald makes him look acceptable.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:37 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Awaiting announcement: 666
must...not...quote...Revelations...
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:39 PM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
must...not...quote...Revelations...
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:39 PM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
pardon repeated posting, but what I meant to add about the Reagan years, for those too young to remember, is that there was a lot of fear about his ties to the Evangelicals and the Rapture crowd. I recall that looming pretty large.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:43 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 6:43 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
gucci mane: Trump Voters Think African Americans Are Much Less Deserving Than ‘Average Americans’ (HuffPo)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:47 PM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:47 PM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean, really, these don't seem like the actions of a man who plans to serve as president for four years. It's weird.
OTOH, it's perfectly consistent with a man who doesn't know what the presidency involves, and never really expected to win it. He'll keep the job (barring impeachment), he just won't actually do it.
posted by mrgoat at 6:47 PM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
OTOH, it's perfectly consistent with a man who doesn't know what the presidency involves, and never really expected to win it. He'll keep the job (barring impeachment), he just won't actually do it.
posted by mrgoat at 6:47 PM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
must...not...quote...Revelations...
Even for the 2016 writers "666" is a bit on the nose.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:55 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
#itDIDhappenhere
posted by kirkaracha at 6:56 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 6:56 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
#itshappeninghere
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:00 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:00 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Of 689 key positions requiring Senate confirmation…
Awaiting announcement: 666
lol
Holy fuck, 2016 is not finished with us yet. George Michael died at 53.
fuck this fuckin year
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:02 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Awaiting announcement: 666
lol
Holy fuck, 2016 is not finished with us yet. George Michael died at 53.
fuck this fuckin year
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:02 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, really, these don't seem like the actions of a man who plans to serve as president for four years. It's weird.
OTOH, it's perfectly consistent with a man who doesn't know what the presidency involves, and never really expected to win it. He'll keep the job (barring impeachment), he just won't actually do it.
I guarantee you that someone (Rnc Prbs, probably) has told him that SOP is to delegate, say, Assistant Secretaries to the people who will be their bosses and has been told that the Dilettante-in-Chief-Elect wants to meet them all personally, or he needs Ivanka to look over them, or some such bullshit.
posted by Etrigan at 7:08 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
OTOH, it's perfectly consistent with a man who doesn't know what the presidency involves, and never really expected to win it. He'll keep the job (barring impeachment), he just won't actually do it.
I guarantee you that someone (Rnc Prbs, probably) has told him that SOP is to delegate, say, Assistant Secretaries to the people who will be their bosses and has been told that the Dilettante-in-Chief-Elect wants to meet them all personally, or he needs Ivanka to look over them, or some such bullshit.
posted by Etrigan at 7:08 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Two weeks to confirm 689 nominees? Short time-frame for such a hefty number. I'm curious about the process. I suppose these hearings are basically rubber-stamping. Maybe they put 'em through in batches.
posted by valetta at 7:09 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by valetta at 7:09 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe they put 'em through in batches.
Like the French tribunals.
posted by logicpunk at 7:22 PM on December 25, 2016
Like the French tribunals.
posted by logicpunk at 7:22 PM on December 25, 2016
Two weeks to confirm 689 nominees?
Not all of them require confirmation but I am unsure of the number that do.
posted by futz at 7:24 PM on December 25, 2016
Not all of them require confirmation but I am unsure of the number that do.
posted by futz at 7:24 PM on December 25, 2016
Two weeks to confirm 689 nominees?
Not all of them require confirmation but I am unsure of the number that do.
It's 689. Check kirkaracha's link. There are thousands more positions that are generally considered to be political enough to have to change when the party in the Oval changes that aren't Senate-confirmable, but I'm sure that the transition team has those more locked down than the important ones.
posted by Etrigan at 7:35 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not all of them require confirmation but I am unsure of the number that do.
It's 689. Check kirkaracha's link. There are thousands more positions that are generally considered to be political enough to have to change when the party in the Oval changes that aren't Senate-confirmable, but I'm sure that the transition team has those more locked down than the important ones.
posted by Etrigan at 7:35 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh my god. Thank you for the correction.
posted by futz at 7:37 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 7:37 PM on December 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I feel like a jerk for asking this, but: were there similarly alarming opinion pieces and predictions in the weeks leading up to Reagan's first term?
posted by pxe2000 at 4:45 PM on December 25
[1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
I was in Vancouver, Washington when Reagan won and a couple of my neighbors invited me over to watch election returns with them. I did so to acmvoid a long late night hat with my mother. I wanted the kids to be asleep when we talked. When Reagan went over the top, these neighbors were absolutely in tears.
The husband was in the Navy. They were poor enough that they were on Foid Stamps. I had gone out and voted Mondale. I felt awful too but I had to comfort my neighbors.
I was no fan of Reagan, but I can honestly say that as scared as some folks were when he got elected, it was NOTHING compared to this time.
There weren't the terrified opinion pieces.
Reagan was wrong about a LOT of stuff, but he could compromise once in awhile. He didn't do vendettas.
Of course cable wasn't so influential, and the Internet wasn't A Thing yet. People actually read newspapers and magazines then. I used to go to the public library once a week to read magazines and out of town papers. I had a newspaper subscription.
While things were polarized, no one felt like Reagan was going to get really extreme.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:40 PM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 4:45 PM on December 25
[1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
I was in Vancouver, Washington when Reagan won and a couple of my neighbors invited me over to watch election returns with them. I did so to acmvoid a long late night hat with my mother. I wanted the kids to be asleep when we talked. When Reagan went over the top, these neighbors were absolutely in tears.
The husband was in the Navy. They were poor enough that they were on Foid Stamps. I had gone out and voted Mondale. I felt awful too but I had to comfort my neighbors.
I was no fan of Reagan, but I can honestly say that as scared as some folks were when he got elected, it was NOTHING compared to this time.
There weren't the terrified opinion pieces.
Reagan was wrong about a LOT of stuff, but he could compromise once in awhile. He didn't do vendettas.
Of course cable wasn't so influential, and the Internet wasn't A Thing yet. People actually read newspapers and magazines then. I used to go to the public library once a week to read magazines and out of town papers. I had a newspaper subscription.
While things were polarized, no one felt like Reagan was going to get really extreme.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:40 PM on December 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is all getting horrifying and ridiculous in equal measure
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:42 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:42 PM on December 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
May 2015: "I do know what to do and I would know how to bring ISIS to the table or, beyond that, defeat ISIS very quickly...there is a method of defeating them quickly and effectively and having total victory."
June 2015: "I have an absolute way of defeating ISIS, and it would be decisive and quick and it would be very beautiful. Very surgical...If I tell you right now, everyone else is going to say: 'Wow, what a great idea.'"
September 2016:
December 2016: Newt Gingrich Admits Donald Trump Does Not Yet Have a Plan to Beat ISIS
June 2015: "I have an absolute way of defeating ISIS, and it would be decisive and quick and it would be very beautiful. Very surgical...If I tell you right now, everyone else is going to say: 'Wow, what a great idea.'"
September 2016:
LAUER: So is the plan you’ve been hiding this whole time asking someone else for their plan?November 2016: This triflin' fool gets elected.
TRUMP: No. But when I do come up with a plan that I like and that perhaps agrees with mine, or maybe doesn’t — I may love what the generals come back with. I will convene…
LAUER: But you have your own plan?
TRUMP: I have a plan.
December 2016: Newt Gingrich Admits Donald Trump Does Not Yet Have a Plan to Beat ISIS
“I don’t think they have a strategy,” Gingrich told “Fox News Sunday” host Chris Wallace. “I think that what they know, which is important, is that they are gonna need a strategy.”posted by kirkaracha at 7:45 PM on December 25, 2016 [23 favorites]
I was 13 when Reagan got elected. I recall wearing a black armband to school, along with a friend, the next day. We were very concerned that he'd start another Vietnam War in Central America and that we'd be drafted.
posted by thelonius at 7:47 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:47 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
December 2016: Newt Gingrich Admits Donald Trump Does Not Yet Have a Plan to Beat ISIS
To be fair Newt has been walking back so much stuff he's about to break the Guinness World Record.
posted by Talez at 7:48 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
To be fair Newt has been walking back so much stuff he's about to break the Guinness World Record.
posted by Talez at 7:48 PM on December 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump to inherit more than 100 court vacancies, plans to reshape judiciary
Donald Trump is set to inherit an uncommon number of vacancies in the federal courts in addition to the open Supreme Court seat, giving the president-elect a monumental opportunity to reshape the judiciary after taking office.
The estimated 103 judicial vacancies that President Obama is expected to hand over to Trump in the Jan. 20 transition of power is nearly double the 54 openings Obama found eight years ago following George W. Bush’s presidency.
...The result is a multitude of openings throughout the federal circuit and district courts that will allow the new Republican president to quickly make a wide array of lifetime appointments.
“I’m optimistic he’ll come at this right out of the gate,” said Carrie Severino, chief counsel and policy director of the Judicial Crisis Network, a conservative group that has opposed many of Obama’s court choices.
And this KILLS ME:
“Every president can expect to make a huge impact,” Severino added. “[Trump] is unique in having campaigned really hard on this issue — the significance of the courts, and of the Supreme Court in particular.”
That is utter fucking bullshit. None of you fuckers gave President Obama an inch. “Every president can expect to make a huge impact". I am apoplectic.
posted by futz at 7:59 PM on December 25, 2016 [46 favorites]
Donald Trump is set to inherit an uncommon number of vacancies in the federal courts in addition to the open Supreme Court seat, giving the president-elect a monumental opportunity to reshape the judiciary after taking office.
The estimated 103 judicial vacancies that President Obama is expected to hand over to Trump in the Jan. 20 transition of power is nearly double the 54 openings Obama found eight years ago following George W. Bush’s presidency.
...The result is a multitude of openings throughout the federal circuit and district courts that will allow the new Republican president to quickly make a wide array of lifetime appointments.
“I’m optimistic he’ll come at this right out of the gate,” said Carrie Severino, chief counsel and policy director of the Judicial Crisis Network, a conservative group that has opposed many of Obama’s court choices.
And this KILLS ME:
“Every president can expect to make a huge impact,” Severino added. “[Trump] is unique in having campaigned really hard on this issue — the significance of the courts, and of the Supreme Court in particular.”
That is utter fucking bullshit. None of you fuckers gave President Obama an inch. “Every president can expect to make a huge impact". I am apoplectic.
posted by futz at 7:59 PM on December 25, 2016 [46 favorites]
Two weeks to confirm 689 nominees?
Not all of them require confirmation but I am unsure of the number that do.
It's over 4,000 total but a lot of those are non-career SES or Schedule C appointees that don't require confirmation. But yeah, 689 sounds about right (there's a lot of various assistant secretaries, special envoys, commissions, boards, not to mention the 188 ambassadors we have, all requiring full Senate confirmation).
On preview, what Ertigan said.
posted by photo guy at 7:59 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not all of them require confirmation but I am unsure of the number that do.
It's over 4,000 total but a lot of those are non-career SES or Schedule C appointees that don't require confirmation. But yeah, 689 sounds about right (there's a lot of various assistant secretaries, special envoys, commissions, boards, not to mention the 188 ambassadors we have, all requiring full Senate confirmation).
On preview, what Ertigan said.
posted by photo guy at 7:59 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
“I think that what they know, which is important, is that they are gonna need a strategy.”
Please, Mr. Gingrich, tell us what it's like to be literally the only person in the world who thinks a particular thing. That's gotta be lonely.
posted by Etrigan at 7:59 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Please, Mr. Gingrich, tell us what it's like to be literally the only person in the world who thinks a particular thing. That's gotta be lonely.
posted by Etrigan at 7:59 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
On preview, what Ertigan said.
I thanked him for correcting me. I didn't realize that the number was that high. Silly me.
posted by futz at 8:02 PM on December 25, 2016
I thanked him for correcting me. I didn't realize that the number was that high. Silly me.
posted by futz at 8:02 PM on December 25, 2016
“I think that what they know, which is important, is that they are gonna need a strategy.”
So the next guy I see at the bus stop is about as prepared to fight ISIS as the next POTUS. That's comforting.
posted by Rykey at 8:43 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
So the next guy I see at the bus stop is about as prepared to fight ISIS as the next POTUS. That's comforting.
posted by Rykey at 8:43 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I always thought evangelicals' embrace of Trump was incredibly ironic, since even leaving aside that he's as un-Jesus-like as possible he's pretty much the physical embodiment of every one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:55 PM on December 25, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:55 PM on December 25, 2016 [13 favorites]
I always thought evangelicals' embrace of Trump was incredibly ironic, since even leaving aside that he's as un-Jesus-like as possible he's pretty much the physical embodiment of every one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
....but liberals hate him
posted by thelonius at 9:02 PM on December 25, 2016 [17 favorites]
....but liberals hate him
posted by thelonius at 9:02 PM on December 25, 2016 [17 favorites]
Hate the sin, elect the sinner.
posted by srboisvert at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2016 [33 favorites]
I feel like a jerk for asking this, but: were there similarly alarming opinion pieces and predictions in the weeks leading up to Reagan's first term?
I'm just a tad young to have caught much before Reagan started his first term, but during his first term people were definitely worried about his ties with the religious right, about his saber-rattling against Soviet Russia, about him getting us into another Vietnam somewhere in Central America, about whether he was an amiable idiot puppet. People like Harlan Ellison who had lived through his tenure as governor of California wrote some pieces attempting to warn the rest of the country.
But as others have said, without the internet and the cable-driven 24/7/365 news cycle, a lot of the negative pieces didn't get very widely circulated. And on top of that Reagan was so unflappably cheerful that a lot of people liked him personally even if they weren't thrilled with the job he was doing. Plus the Dems controlled the House for his entire term, and the Senate for some of his term.
So, yeah, despite the fact that we can look back with 20/20 hindsight and see that Reagan had a lot to do with starting to put us in the position we're in now, there was really nothing like the reaction we're seeing to Trump.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm just a tad young to have caught much before Reagan started his first term, but during his first term people were definitely worried about his ties with the religious right, about his saber-rattling against Soviet Russia, about him getting us into another Vietnam somewhere in Central America, about whether he was an amiable idiot puppet. People like Harlan Ellison who had lived through his tenure as governor of California wrote some pieces attempting to warn the rest of the country.
But as others have said, without the internet and the cable-driven 24/7/365 news cycle, a lot of the negative pieces didn't get very widely circulated. And on top of that Reagan was so unflappably cheerful that a lot of people liked him personally even if they weren't thrilled with the job he was doing. Plus the Dems controlled the House for his entire term, and the Senate for some of his term.
So, yeah, despite the fact that we can look back with 20/20 hindsight and see that Reagan had a lot to do with starting to put us in the position we're in now, there was really nothing like the reaction we're seeing to Trump.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Newt Gingrich Admits Donald Trump Does Not Yet Have a Plan to Beat ISIS
Based on history the best strategy for hurting ISIS is for Donald to partner with them to build and run a casino.
posted by srboisvert at 9:06 PM on December 25, 2016 [54 favorites]
Based on history the best strategy for hurting ISIS is for Donald to partner with them to build and run a casino.
posted by srboisvert at 9:06 PM on December 25, 2016 [54 favorites]
I feel like a jerk for asking this, but: were there similarly alarming opinion pieces and predictions in the weeks leading up to Reagan's first term?
I have no idea what was in the media at the time. I was in elementary school in Canada when he first became President. What I can say for certain is that with whatever was going on and with whatever was filtering down to us kids I and others were absolutely terrified that the American president person was going to do nuclear war with the country called Russia. I remember being scared of this person called President. I remember hiding in the school bathroom balling after some sort of current affairs talk we had in class about something to do with the US and some sort of military thing.
I still remember the nightmares about mushroom clouds and heaps of American planes and Russian planes flying over my house and fighting. Reagan = nuclear bombs and potential big time death in my kid brain. I feel so so bad for kids that are that same age now because Donald is way worse. This nuclear talk is gonna filter like it did back then.
Horrible.
posted by Jalliah at 9:16 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have no idea what was in the media at the time. I was in elementary school in Canada when he first became President. What I can say for certain is that with whatever was going on and with whatever was filtering down to us kids I and others were absolutely terrified that the American president person was going to do nuclear war with the country called Russia. I remember being scared of this person called President. I remember hiding in the school bathroom balling after some sort of current affairs talk we had in class about something to do with the US and some sort of military thing.
I still remember the nightmares about mushroom clouds and heaps of American planes and Russian planes flying over my house and fighting. Reagan = nuclear bombs and potential big time death in my kid brain. I feel so so bad for kids that are that same age now because Donald is way worse. This nuclear talk is gonna filter like it did back then.
Horrible.
posted by Jalliah at 9:16 PM on December 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm starting to think ending the Electoral College might be the only way to pull the Republicans back to the center. If they have to play for the coasts, they have to start moderating their positions. Not to mention the Liberterians and Egg McMuffins of the world would be real competition when the only thing that matters is the popular vote.
posted by asteria at 9:31 PM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by asteria at 9:31 PM on December 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
They are never going to care about the coasts ever again, except as a place to extract money from to prop up their states.
posted by Artw at 10:04 PM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:04 PM on December 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
ending the Electoral College
At the risk of rehashing previous threads, pursuing a constitutional convention after the outcome of this election would be an incredibly foolish thing for the Dems to do.
Constitutional conventions, once underway, are not confined to any particular issue that might have been campaigned on to build support for them. They can do anything that 38 states are willing to ratify.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:05 PM on December 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
At the risk of rehashing previous threads, pursuing a constitutional convention after the outcome of this election would be an incredibly foolish thing for the Dems to do.
Constitutional conventions, once underway, are not confined to any particular issue that might have been campaigned on to build support for them. They can do anything that 38 states are willing to ratify.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:05 PM on December 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
Well then, Giant Meteor 2017 ?
posted by y2karl at 10:25 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 10:25 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
On reflection, I think I shouldn't have put that so strongly. It's not clear that a convention could be limited to the subject matter it was called to address, if enough states decided to do more. But that's enough to be very, vary careful about cooperating in convening one.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:53 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:53 PM on December 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
@DavidNir:
48 senators in Dem caucus in 115th Congress received 78.4 million votes. 52 GOP senators: 54.9 million votes http://dkel.ec/2hzFwvx
posted by chris24 at 2:01 AM on December 26, 2016 [49 favorites]
48 senators in Dem caucus in 115th Congress received 78.4 million votes. 52 GOP senators: 54.9 million votes http://dkel.ec/2hzFwvx
posted by chris24 at 2:01 AM on December 26, 2016 [49 favorites]
When Reagan was first elected there was a lot of concern over his competence and his stronger stance against the Soviets made some fear he'd be a loose cannon and might provoke a war. The rise of the "Moral Majority" though was at least as big an issue on the left as it was perceived as something of a new threat from the religious right intended to strip away constitutional freedoms, so while Reagan himself caused worry, the religious right inserting themselves so strongly into politics might have been the larger concern.
Both things though were shaped by the Carter presidency which, by its end, was deeply unpopular. So while the left was largely aghast at Reagan, most of the country seemed to just want to be done with Carter and the Iran hostage situation most particularly. Carter's own religious background also may have minimized any trepidation people might have potentially felt about the religious right, as Carter wasn't shy about talking religion, even as he didn't use it as the right would. But, Carter presidency was unpopular for many reasons, a lot of it beyond his direct control, so Reagan seemed a positive alternative to many and the media seemed to split the difference, questioning Reagan's fitness and Carter's aptitude mostly, with publications on the right and left being more vehement of course.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:49 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Both things though were shaped by the Carter presidency which, by its end, was deeply unpopular. So while the left was largely aghast at Reagan, most of the country seemed to just want to be done with Carter and the Iran hostage situation most particularly. Carter's own religious background also may have minimized any trepidation people might have potentially felt about the religious right, as Carter wasn't shy about talking religion, even as he didn't use it as the right would. But, Carter presidency was unpopular for many reasons, a lot of it beyond his direct control, so Reagan seemed a positive alternative to many and the media seemed to split the difference, questioning Reagan's fitness and Carter's aptitude mostly, with publications on the right and left being more vehement of course.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:49 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I should add that even on the left Carter wasn't all that popular, the coverage I remember was more anti-Reagan than pro-Carter. There was a considerable Ted Kennedy faction splitting the left, along with Carter's own failings making the coverage of the election more about Reagan's potential failings than a celebration of their own candidate.
The right, however, was much more gung ho about Reagan once he won the nomination. If I remember correctly, some still had doubts about him in the primaries, too California, an actor and former Democrat, but once he won, they rallied around him and were able to better sell both a positive message about Reagan while being relentlessly negative about Carter.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:57 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
The right, however, was much more gung ho about Reagan once he won the nomination. If I remember correctly, some still had doubts about him in the primaries, too California, an actor and former Democrat, but once he won, they rallied around him and were able to better sell both a positive message about Reagan while being relentlessly negative about Carter.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:57 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, man, I almost forgot perhaps the biggest debate point among those talking about the election, aside from Iran, was Reagan's economic policies. Which were seen as both horrible on the left, and revolutionary, on part of the right. The US economy suffered greatly under Nixon and was believed to be stagnant up through at least part of Carter's admin, so Reagan's tax cutting plan sparked more debate than virtually anything else, even in the primaries. (Sorry for three posts in a row, but leaving that out wouldn't make any sense.)
posted by gusottertrout at 4:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 4:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
On reflection, I think I shouldn't have put that so strongly.
No, don't waver! It would be an insanely dangerous thing to risk, at this time.
posted by thelonius at 4:11 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
No, don't waver! It would be an insanely dangerous thing to risk, at this time.
posted by thelonius at 4:11 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
At the risk of rehashing previous threads, pursuing a constitutional convention after the outcome of this election would be an incredibly foolish thing for the Dems to do.
You don't need to do a convention to get rid of the electoral college? Only propose an amendment to really kill it (which is totally unviable until a Republican loses because of it) or work around it with statute law?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:16 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
You don't need to do a convention to get rid of the electoral college? Only propose an amendment to really kill it (which is totally unviable until a Republican loses because of it) or work around it with statute law?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:16 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
During the Iran hostage crisis the school would ring a bell once a day and we'd observe a moment of science for the hostages. It was a pretty big deal. There's a theory that Reagan conspired with Iran to delay the release until after the election (though Reagan did actually win by a landslide) and then later we discovered Iran-Contra. We looked forward, not backward, in spite of Ollie and Fawn's document-shredding. We were already trying to overthrow Saddam. And Reagan told the Soviets they were an Evil Empire and would one day discover God, and the same year the Soviets almost accidentally destroyed the world.
But we had video games and synth music, so good times.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:21 AM on December 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
But we had video games and synth music, so good times.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:21 AM on December 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
You don't need to do a convention to get rid of the electoral college? Only propose an amendment to really kill it
Yes, an Amendment could be passed by Congress, then ratified by the States.We created a little confusion, I giess; there are people who are advocating that an "Article 5 Convention" - the other way that amendments can be proposed - should be called.
posted by thelonius at 5:25 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, an Amendment could be passed by Congress, then ratified by the States.We created a little confusion, I giess; there are people who are advocating that an "Article 5 Convention" - the other way that amendments can be proposed - should be called.
posted by thelonius at 5:25 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
If enough states pass the National Popular Vote Compact then no change to the constitution is necessary. Only 105 more electoral college votes needed until it takes effect. Another reason to focus on state-level organizing. There are solid blue states that haven't passed it yet (CT, OR, etc).
posted by melissasaurus at 5:50 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by melissasaurus at 5:50 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
I just had a terrifying conversation with my parents. There was a local new story on tv about the Jason Miller standing down and I pointed out that it was in part because he was caught in an affair and, surprise, they weren't reporting that.
And my parents' response was "well, why does that matter? Trump did the same thing."
This is what normalization looks like.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:43 AM on December 26, 2016 [44 favorites]
And my parents' response was "well, why does that matter? Trump did the same thing."
This is what normalization looks like.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:43 AM on December 26, 2016 [44 favorites]
If enough states pass the National Popular Vote Compact then no change to the constitution is necessary.
But can we trust States to stick by that, if their legislature is controlled by a party whose candidate lost the popular vote?
posted by thelonius at 6:53 AM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
But can we trust States to stick by that, if their legislature is controlled by a party whose candidate lost the popular vote?
posted by thelonius at 6:53 AM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
C'est la D.C. - amen! I was just composing a post:
Is it just me, or do others feel like we have by and large descended into quasi-acceptance of the utterly absurd state of affairs regarding Trump? I mean, I understand that a large percentage of people are outraged. And I understand that people are taking action to varying degrees in their individual lives. But when I look at what's going on across the nation as a whole, I mainly feel like I'm watching an endless cycle of outrageous action followed by outraged reaction. But the only real purpose of the reaction is to cope, not to affect anything. Which is dangerous, because it's how normalization occurs.
posted by perspicio at 6:59 AM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Is it just me, or do others feel like we have by and large descended into quasi-acceptance of the utterly absurd state of affairs regarding Trump? I mean, I understand that a large percentage of people are outraged. And I understand that people are taking action to varying degrees in their individual lives. But when I look at what's going on across the nation as a whole, I mainly feel like I'm watching an endless cycle of outrageous action followed by outraged reaction. But the only real purpose of the reaction is to cope, not to affect anything. Which is dangerous, because it's how normalization occurs.
posted by perspicio at 6:59 AM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
I actually think that politicians having affairs is pretty much business as usual, and I don't care about it. Every other thing about the Trump administration is where the normalization problem is happening.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:05 AM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:05 AM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
Normalization? The man is going to be fucking inaugurated. That's "normalization".
posted by thelonius at 7:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
But when I look at what's going on across the nation as a whole, I mainly feel like I'm watching an endless cycle of outrageous action followed by outraged reaction. But the only real purpose of the reaction is to cope, not to affect anything. Which is dangerous, because it's how normalization occurs.
I think this is true, but also there's not a lot of concrete things that can be pushed back against right now, since the new Administration hasn't actually taken over yet. The initial shock, rage and fear that got people out into the streets in the days after the election has faded; people have started to organize around specific issues; but committee hearings won't start until the new Congress convenes and the President-Elect won't be able to start doing horrible things via executive order until 1/20.
It's kind of the deep breath before the plunge, this moment.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
I think this is true, but also there's not a lot of concrete things that can be pushed back against right now, since the new Administration hasn't actually taken over yet. The initial shock, rage and fear that got people out into the streets in the days after the election has faded; people have started to organize around specific issues; but committee hearings won't start until the new Congress convenes and the President-Elect won't be able to start doing horrible things via executive order until 1/20.
It's kind of the deep breath before the plunge, this moment.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
Thelonius: I think (kind of agreeing with you) that after the behavior from the Dems this year, the National Popular Vote law is, effectively, DOA -- there's no way to trust it will be adhered to by the electors of the states who signed onto it. They'll appeal to the need for a greater good of some sort, and, given that we can't keep our own caucus in line (I'm certain that Faith Spotted Eagle is a wonderful person, but she was neither on the ballot nor even a nationally recognized political figure -- and that's not to mention the votes for Warren and others), it'd be easy to call us out on our hypocracy for expecting the other side to do the same.
Even if their behavior matters and ours doesn't. Especially if their behavior matters.
I think it's a Constitutional Amendment or nothing.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 7:19 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
Even if their behavior matters and ours doesn't. Especially if their behavior matters.
I think it's a Constitutional Amendment or nothing.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 7:19 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
I am with tivalasvegas. It's holidays. People are taking a deep breath of intake, but much of the nation is stopped for a moment because holiday season is sucking up a lot of time, energy, and attention.
On the other hand, I also see people reaching out to build community and group activity through the holidays; many people in my networks who met me (or each other!) in the past two months are wishing each other well and keeping in contact with one another so the relationships are strong when we need them for action; people are volunteering to help with things like SURJ's holiday hotline and I can tell you, politics and direct action certainly came up last night over my holiday meal.
I think people are conserving energy and planning to mobilize with the new year and the inauguration.
posted by sciatrix at 7:20 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
On the other hand, I also see people reaching out to build community and group activity through the holidays; many people in my networks who met me (or each other!) in the past two months are wishing each other well and keeping in contact with one another so the relationships are strong when we need them for action; people are volunteering to help with things like SURJ's holiday hotline and I can tell you, politics and direct action certainly came up last night over my holiday meal.
I think people are conserving energy and planning to mobilize with the new year and the inauguration.
posted by sciatrix at 7:20 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
I mainly feel like I'm watching an endless cycle of outrageous action followed by outraged reaction.
Trump and cohorts' actions are like a DDOS attack on our collective legal, democratic, and behavioral norms. Throw enough malicious traffic at our minds and we all respond with a 500 internal server error.
posted by localhuman at 7:22 AM on December 26, 2016 [35 favorites]
Trump and cohorts' actions are like a DDOS attack on our collective legal, democratic, and behavioral norms. Throw enough malicious traffic at our minds and we all respond with a 500 internal server error.
posted by localhuman at 7:22 AM on December 26, 2016 [35 favorites]
Tracking how many key positions Trump has filled so far
According to the comments on that article, his lack of nominations is not incompetence but in fact part of his genius strategy to drain the swamp of unneeded bureaucrats.
posted by octothorpe at 7:24 AM on December 26, 2016
According to the comments on that article, his lack of nominations is not incompetence but in fact part of his genius strategy to drain the swamp of unneeded bureaucrats.
posted by octothorpe at 7:24 AM on December 26, 2016
The National Popular Vote Compact is not going to work because it reduces the electoral value of any battleground state which signs onto it. Plus, it reduces the number of EVs the dominant party gets in safe states.
posted by Coventry at 7:26 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 7:26 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Week: Donald Trump will be president because James Comey and Loretta Lynch were scared
Both sides in American politics tend to believe that their opponents are less principled and more ruthless than they themselves are, willing to do anything in furtherance of their nefarious goals. We might disagree about which side is right on that score, but there's no doubt about who's more effective in the strategic deployment of a critical political tool: outrage. Republicans have honed it to a fine art, and there's no better evidence than the fear right-wing outrage inspires in Democrats, the media, and even Republicans themselves.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:51 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Both sides in American politics tend to believe that their opponents are less principled and more ruthless than they themselves are, willing to do anything in furtherance of their nefarious goals. We might disagree about which side is right on that score, but there's no doubt about who's more effective in the strategic deployment of a critical political tool: outrage. Republicans have honed it to a fine art, and there's no better evidence than the fear right-wing outrage inspires in Democrats, the media, and even Republicans themselves.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:51 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't blame this on Loretta Lynch. While nominally Comey's boss, she really wasn't because Comey was a presidential appointee confirmed by the Senate. Only the president could fire him.
As to ordering Comey, to what effect? Comey had already declared his intention to defy department policy after being sternly advised not to. He would just do what he intended no matter what. Firing him a week before the election would have created an even bigger media shit storm and the story would have come out anyway.
No, this is Comey's doing alone. He is the Republican who decided to abuse the power of the investigators to make sure Trump would become president.
posted by JackFlash at 8:06 AM on December 26, 2016 [35 favorites]
As to ordering Comey, to what effect? Comey had already declared his intention to defy department policy after being sternly advised not to. He would just do what he intended no matter what. Firing him a week before the election would have created an even bigger media shit storm and the story would have come out anyway.
No, this is Comey's doing alone. He is the Republican who decided to abuse the power of the investigators to make sure Trump would become president.
posted by JackFlash at 8:06 AM on December 26, 2016 [35 favorites]
The National Popular Vote Compact is not going to work because it reduces the electoral value of any battleground state which signs onto it
It has a much better chance of happening than a constitutional amendment. It will be an uphill battle, but we HAVE to do something about the electoral college. I agree that we're unlikely to see it pass in Ohio or Florida. But it passed the GOP-controlled AZ House earlier this year, and Democrats could push for it in CT, OR, NC, MN, etc. Or we could do nothing and just hope that Ohio decides to be less racist next time. If we're lobbying our state legislatures for progressive changes anyway, why not add it to the list?
posted by melissasaurus at 8:37 AM on December 26, 2016 [13 favorites]
It has a much better chance of happening than a constitutional amendment. It will be an uphill battle, but we HAVE to do something about the electoral college. I agree that we're unlikely to see it pass in Ohio or Florida. But it passed the GOP-controlled AZ House earlier this year, and Democrats could push for it in CT, OR, NC, MN, etc. Or we could do nothing and just hope that Ohio decides to be less racist next time. If we're lobbying our state legislatures for progressive changes anyway, why not add it to the list?
posted by melissasaurus at 8:37 AM on December 26, 2016 [13 favorites]
Don't blame this on Loretta Lynch. While nominally Comey's boss, she really wasn't because Comey was a presidential appointee confirmed by the Senate. Only the president could fire him.
Eh, we'll just add her to the list of women we're gonna go ahead and blame the 2016 election on.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:41 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
Eh, we'll just add her to the list of women we're gonna go ahead and blame the 2016 election on.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:41 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
Firing him a week before the election would have created an even bigger media shit storm and the story would have come out anyway.
Meh, Trump wound up winning the election anyway, so I'm ok with thinking some things should have been done differently. At worst, we still end up with the same shitty President.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:51 AM on December 26, 2016
Meh, Trump wound up winning the election anyway, so I'm ok with thinking some things should have been done differently. At worst, we still end up with the same shitty President.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:51 AM on December 26, 2016
Actually, re: the idea that folks' outraged reactions are being directed primarily at coping, not at sustained reaction... well, I just logged onto Facebook for the morning, and first on my feed is the big local group that used to be the Pantsuit Nation Texas chapter, and which immediately abandoned that name and pivoted toward local action when the PSN folks decided they cared more about heartwarming stories than political change.
Four hours ago, someone went "I am feeling really restless; I'm sick of waiting, and I want to hit the ground running to turn Texas blue or at least purple! Time is passing; let's get going!" in that group. In those four hours, 37 local Texans for change have liked or tagged the post to remember it. More importantly, a long conversation has broken out among people about how to best target folks' rural or conservative Texan counties for change, how to reach out to Hispanic communities effectively, how to frame arguments to best appeal to and mobilize folks who feel abandoned by the political process, and how those of us in bluer parts of Texas can most helpfully support and encourage folks in redder parts to make sustained change. (Helpful, by the way, is remembering that we have liberal allies everywhere, even in red parts of the state, and that listening to them will help us target our rhetoric to achieve the best result for our effort.)
This is not the only such post. It's just the most recent. Yesterday someone wrote about attending an interfaith "Jews and Muslims Eating (Sharing?) Chinese Food on Christmas" lunch and event that she'd enjoyed, and accidentally started up a chain reaction of folks in other cities going "oh my god that sounds wonderful, I need to set that up here!" And she was talking about having felt right at home because a couple of older ladies there were offering to set her up with a nice Muslim PhD boy, and that's what her family always did--because families are the same everywhere. That's just a holiday meal, sure, but it's also an occasion that gets folks out reaching past the inertia of their social networks and making connections that we can use for coalition building and change, and by posting about it she got several other folks to do similar things.
Another woman wrote an article about education funding in Texas for her local newspaper, publicizing the sneaky ways that Texan legislators use charter schools to take money away from our children's education and underfund the system. She pitched it at both conservative and liberal voters, because it's easy to say you don't care about education if your kids aren't the ones getting shafted in schools and undercut relative to richer kids. That's change geared at winning hearts and minds--and at getting folks more involved in local politics and education.
A third woman posted a link to Annie's List, explaining what the organization does--get women into elected positions across Texas--and encouraging folks to run for office. She also publicized an upcoming event and webinar intended to help folks who are either new or returning after a hiatus to political activism figure out what's effective, sort out the tactics that work for them, and begin to make sustained local change.
There's more, but those are just the past three days' worth--and that, like I said, during a time when many of us are being distracted by the demands of a very popular, fraught, and busy holiday.
posted by sciatrix at 8:52 AM on December 26, 2016 [26 favorites]
Four hours ago, someone went "I am feeling really restless; I'm sick of waiting, and I want to hit the ground running to turn Texas blue or at least purple! Time is passing; let's get going!" in that group. In those four hours, 37 local Texans for change have liked or tagged the post to remember it. More importantly, a long conversation has broken out among people about how to best target folks' rural or conservative Texan counties for change, how to reach out to Hispanic communities effectively, how to frame arguments to best appeal to and mobilize folks who feel abandoned by the political process, and how those of us in bluer parts of Texas can most helpfully support and encourage folks in redder parts to make sustained change. (Helpful, by the way, is remembering that we have liberal allies everywhere, even in red parts of the state, and that listening to them will help us target our rhetoric to achieve the best result for our effort.)
This is not the only such post. It's just the most recent. Yesterday someone wrote about attending an interfaith "Jews and Muslims Eating (Sharing?) Chinese Food on Christmas" lunch and event that she'd enjoyed, and accidentally started up a chain reaction of folks in other cities going "oh my god that sounds wonderful, I need to set that up here!" And she was talking about having felt right at home because a couple of older ladies there were offering to set her up with a nice Muslim PhD boy, and that's what her family always did--because families are the same everywhere. That's just a holiday meal, sure, but it's also an occasion that gets folks out reaching past the inertia of their social networks and making connections that we can use for coalition building and change, and by posting about it she got several other folks to do similar things.
Another woman wrote an article about education funding in Texas for her local newspaper, publicizing the sneaky ways that Texan legislators use charter schools to take money away from our children's education and underfund the system. She pitched it at both conservative and liberal voters, because it's easy to say you don't care about education if your kids aren't the ones getting shafted in schools and undercut relative to richer kids. That's change geared at winning hearts and minds--and at getting folks more involved in local politics and education.
A third woman posted a link to Annie's List, explaining what the organization does--get women into elected positions across Texas--and encouraging folks to run for office. She also publicized an upcoming event and webinar intended to help folks who are either new or returning after a hiatus to political activism figure out what's effective, sort out the tactics that work for them, and begin to make sustained local change.
There's more, but those are just the past three days' worth--and that, like I said, during a time when many of us are being distracted by the demands of a very popular, fraught, and busy holiday.
posted by sciatrix at 8:52 AM on December 26, 2016 [26 favorites]
(And I should note: that first conversation is being driven by people in very conservative, rural Texan counties talking about how they can best reach out to folks in those counties. Not by liberals out of Austin or Houston enclaves. Not even by folks in San Antonia or the DFW areas. People who have direct experience with the communities on the ground, people who hail from those communities, trying to figure out how to best reach out. The rest of us, well, it's our job to support them.)
posted by sciatrix at 9:03 AM on December 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 9:03 AM on December 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
Julian Assange gives guarded praise of Trump and blasts Clinton in interview
And then there's the ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ approach to political change in the US. "Hey, things could get better, or they could get worse. Let's roll the dice -- it's not like lives are hanging in the balance!" Well, not lives that matter to Julian Assange, at least.
Let's see if he has any other countries we can look to as models of transparency:
Alexey Navalny faces a Russian crackdown
Novaya Gazeta: Journalism, murder and reporting the truth on Russia's bravest newspaper
posted by tonycpsu at 9:04 AM on December 26, 2016 [49 favorites]
“Donald Trump is not a DC insider, he is part of the wealthy ruling elite of the United States, and he is gathering around him a spectrum of other rich people and several idiosyncratic personalities.”First, I just love the idea that Trump's collection of billionaires don't constitute an existing power structure. We're very fortunate to have someone with such an advanced understanding of American politics making decisions about what leaks deserve to see the light of day.
He added: “They do not by themselves form an existing structure, so it is a weak structure which is displacing and destabilising the pre-existing central power network within DC. It is a new patronage structure which will evolve rapidly, but at the moment its looseness means there are opportunities for change in the United States: change for the worse and change for the better.”
And then there's the ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ approach to political change in the US. "Hey, things could get better, or they could get worse. Let's roll the dice -- it's not like lives are hanging in the balance!" Well, not lives that matter to Julian Assange, at least.
Let's see if he has any other countries we can look to as models of transparency:
Assange, who briefly hosted his own talkshow on the state-owned television network Russia Today, has long had a close relationship with the Putin regime. In his interview with la Repubblica, he said there was no need for WikiLeaks to undertake a whistleblowing role in Russia because of the open and competitive debate he claimed exists there.Yes, and I wonder how things are going for those competitors?
“In Russia, there are many vibrant publications, online blogs and Kremlin critics, such as [Alexey] Navalny, are part of that spectrum,” he said. “There are also newspapers like Novaya Gazeta, in which different parts of society in Moscow are permitted to critique each other and it is tolerated, generally, because it isn’t a big TV channel that might have a mass popular effect, its audience is educated people in Moscow. So my interpretation is that in Russia there are competitors to WikiLeaks.”
Alexey Navalny faces a Russian crackdown
This week, the system struck back. Mr. Navalny was accused of embezzlement, a crime that carries a sentence of up to 10 years, based on an old investigation that was closed without charges three years ago in a Russian region. Mr. Navalny denies the charges. It appears to be trumped-up retaliation for his anti-corruption activity and his role in the opposition.OK, so maybe Navalny just happened to get himself in trouble with the law. What about Novaya Gazeta, which is "tolerated, generally" according to Assange?
Novaya Gazeta: Journalism, murder and reporting the truth on Russia's bravest newspaper
The newspaper landscape is more diverse. There are a number of more or less independent newspapers, such as Vedomosti, Kommersant and Novaya Gazeta. The latter is the main opposition platform for the moment. It may be the reason why four of the 19 journalists killed were journalists from "Novaya Gazeta" staff, says Harding.Yeah, nothing suspicious going on there that would justify diverting Wikileaks resources away from finding the perfect risotto recipe. I wonder if Assange sees murdered journalists as incidental or essential to Russia's more competitive media landscape.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:04 AM on December 26, 2016 [49 favorites]
Trump wound up winning the election anyway, so I'm ok with thinking some things should have been done differently
The thing is, hardly anyone anticipated that. Almost everyone thought Clinton had it in the bag until the evening of Nov 8. Had the real risk been known, a lot of the responses to it would have made Comey's revelation irrelevant, starting with a heavier campaign focus on battleground states.
posted by Coventry at 9:04 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
The thing is, hardly anyone anticipated that. Almost everyone thought Clinton had it in the bag until the evening of Nov 8. Had the real risk been known, a lot of the responses to it would have made Comey's revelation irrelevant, starting with a heavier campaign focus on battleground states.
posted by Coventry at 9:04 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
At worst, we still end up with the same shitty President.
Then you are lacking in imagination. Imagine the front pages of every newspaper and TV chyron blasting "President fires FBI director in massive Democrat coverup" a week before the election. Then look at all the down ticket races. You would be looking at a filibuster-proof Senate which could rubber stamp every Trump appointee to the courts and repeal Obamacare and Dodd-Frank on day one. With literally no restrictions at all, the country and the world would change for the worse at a breathtaking pace.
No, firing Comey a week before the election simply wasn't an option.
posted by JackFlash at 9:05 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
Then you are lacking in imagination. Imagine the front pages of every newspaper and TV chyron blasting "President fires FBI director in massive Democrat coverup" a week before the election. Then look at all the down ticket races. You would be looking at a filibuster-proof Senate which could rubber stamp every Trump appointee to the courts and repeal Obamacare and Dodd-Frank on day one. With literally no restrictions at all, the country and the world would change for the worse at a breathtaking pace.
No, firing Comey a week before the election simply wasn't an option.
posted by JackFlash at 9:05 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
First, I just love the idea that Trump's collection of billionaires don't constitute an existing power structure. We're very fortunate to have someone with such an advanced understanding of American politics making decisions about what leaks deserve to see the light of day.
In the weird white male Libertarian mindset, wealth isn't power. Somehow.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:05 AM on December 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
In the weird white male Libertarian mindset, wealth isn't power. Somehow.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:05 AM on December 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
Israel has evidence that U.S. President Obama's administration is behind Friday's Security Council resolution, Israel's Ambassador to the U.S. Ron Dermer told CNN on Monday.I think they are warming up to the "new administration" quite well.
"We will present this evidence to the new administration through the appropriate channels. If they want to share it with the American people they are welcome to do it," Dermer told CNN.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:07 AM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Speaking of helping out with local change if you live somewhere very blue, by the way, our group coordinator just linked the Sister District project, which is working on pairing each Congressional District with a sister district across the nation to help direct efforts to places which are maximally useful. They're still matching districts and collecting information to help work out where the most obvious national pairs will be, but this looks like a great opportunity to help reach across regional divides and find out where your work can do the most good.
posted by sciatrix at 9:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 9:08 AM on December 26, 2016 [16 favorites]
Trump and cohorts' actions are like a DDOS attack on our collective legal, democratic, and behavioral norms. Throw enough malicious traffic at our minds and we all respond with a 500 internal server error.
Right now it feels more like port scanning.
They are floating all kinds of shit and back tracking when they get called out. They are probing for the holes in people's vigilance.
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 AM on December 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
Right now it feels more like port scanning.
They are floating all kinds of shit and back tracking when they get called out. They are probing for the holes in people's vigilance.
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 AM on December 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
The thing is, hardly anyone anticipated that. Almost everyone thought Clinton had it in the bag until the evening of Nov 8. Had the real risk been known, a lot of the responses to it would have made Comey's revelation irrelevant, starting with a heavier campaign focus on battleground states.
There was massive focus on Pennsylvania, which she still lost. Ohio could have gotten more but she lost by like double digits.
There really wasn't much that could be done with a few ads by the Clinton campaign in the last 10 days. Comey (abetted by an idiotic press, including the NYT & NPR) took over the narrative.
posted by mark k at 9:10 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
There was massive focus on Pennsylvania, which she still lost. Ohio could have gotten more but she lost by like double digits.
There really wasn't much that could be done with a few ads by the Clinton campaign in the last 10 days. Comey (abetted by an idiotic press, including the NYT & NPR) took over the narrative.
posted by mark k at 9:10 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
There was also massive focus on historically Republican states like AZ, which would have been redirected to places like PA had the risk been understood. And there's more to campaigning than advertising on TV. There weren't enough people getting out the vote.
posted by Coventry at 9:16 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 9:16 AM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
In the weird white male Libertarian mindset, wealth isn't power. Somehow.
Unless you're talking about Jews. Then absolutely their wealth is linked to power.
posted by Talez at 9:23 AM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Unless you're talking about Jews. Then absolutely their wealth is linked to power.
posted by Talez at 9:23 AM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Israel has evidence...
So a foreign government was spying on the current administration and is going to present that to the incoming president in case he wants to do something with it. Sure, sounds legit.
I'm almost glad I'm going to be a country pretty much without internet for the next 5 days. I need a fucking break from this insanity.
posted by chris24 at 9:23 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
So a foreign government was spying on the current administration and is going to present that to the incoming president in case he wants to do something with it. Sure, sounds legit.
I'm almost glad I'm going to be a country pretty much without internet for the next 5 days. I need a fucking break from this insanity.
posted by chris24 at 9:23 AM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
So a foreign government was spying on the current president and is going to present that to the incoming president in case he wants to do something with it. Sure, sounds legit.
A foreign government with whom the NSA has shared raw no-strings-attached SIGINT in the past. What could go wrong?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:28 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
A foreign government with whom the NSA has shared raw no-strings-attached SIGINT in the past. What could go wrong?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:28 AM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
Here's one more stab at explaining why so many Trump supporters voted for his pseudo-populism and against their own interests in normal governance:
Populism and the Return of the "Paranoid Style": Some Evidence and a Simple Model of Demand for Incompetence as Insurance against Elite Betrayal: "adding the assumption that people are worse off when they experience low income as a result of leader betrayal (than when it is the result of bad luck) to a simple voter choice model yields a preference for incompetent leaders. These deliver worse material outcomes in general, but they reduce the feelings of betrayal during bad times. {…} on average, subjects primed with the importance of competence in policymaking decrease their support for Trump, the candidate who scores lower on competence in our survey. But two groups respond to the treatment with a large (between 5 and 7 percentage points) increase in their support for Donald Trump: those living in rural areas and those that are low educated, white and living in urban and suburban areas."
Since Fox News and the Tea Baggers spent the past eight years bombarding their demographic with the double-barreled message that Obama was an illegitimate president and the government was intent on preserving the status quo at their expense, this betrayal narrative would arguably have worked precisely in Trump's favor over not only Clinton, but also the establishment GOP nominee candidates.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:03 AM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Populism and the Return of the "Paranoid Style": Some Evidence and a Simple Model of Demand for Incompetence as Insurance against Elite Betrayal: "adding the assumption that people are worse off when they experience low income as a result of leader betrayal (than when it is the result of bad luck) to a simple voter choice model yields a preference for incompetent leaders. These deliver worse material outcomes in general, but they reduce the feelings of betrayal during bad times. {…} on average, subjects primed with the importance of competence in policymaking decrease their support for Trump, the candidate who scores lower on competence in our survey. But two groups respond to the treatment with a large (between 5 and 7 percentage points) increase in their support for Donald Trump: those living in rural areas and those that are low educated, white and living in urban and suburban areas."
Since Fox News and the Tea Baggers spent the past eight years bombarding their demographic with the double-barreled message that Obama was an illegitimate president and the government was intent on preserving the status quo at their expense, this betrayal narrative would arguably have worked precisely in Trump's favor over not only Clinton, but also the establishment GOP nominee candidates.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:03 AM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Chinese carrier enters South China Sea amid renewed tension [real]
Donald Trump reported to say "we don't want those international waters back. tell china they can keep it" [/fake].
posted by dis_integration at 10:22 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Donald Trump reported to say "we don't want those international waters back. tell china they can keep it" [/fake].
posted by dis_integration at 10:22 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's one more stab at explaining why so many Trump supporters voted for his pseudo-populism
It's hard to take this paper seriously when it itself disses its only empirical evidence:
This paper is exemplary of a trend in institutional groupthink which is contributing to the very paranoia it claims to be studying.
posted by Coventry at 10:41 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's hard to take this paper seriously when it itself disses its only empirical evidence:
Given the fact that there is little monetary consequence to answering one way or the other, and the fact that the “treatment” consists of simply reading something so short and non-controversial, we consider the evidence gathered as “minimal”.Plus, they admit to doing post-hoc analysis:
There is no average effect of the “minimal treatment” on vote intentions. However, when we allow for effects that are specific to the sub-samples that have been singled out as receptive to populist rhetoric, the average effect on the rest of the sample is negative and significant in a Trump regression.They can't reasonably claim statistical significance unless they state how many regressions they tried before they found this one.
This paper is exemplary of a trend in institutional groupthink which is contributing to the very paranoia it claims to be studying.
posted by Coventry at 10:41 AM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
@Coventry: Pennsylvania was basically maxed out in resource expenditures. You can't do much more by moving more resources there. There are diminishing returns once you've let each voter see 10 ads a day. Getting one more ad in front of them doesn't help.
I admit in an election this close you or I can pick almost any factor and plausibly argue changing it might have helped, but the post-Comey week seemed to be a 2-3 point swing in the polls at least, whereas perfect tactical execution and allocation of resources would be a few fractions of a point.
posted by mark k at 10:44 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I admit in an election this close you or I can pick almost any factor and plausibly argue changing it might have helped, but the post-Comey week seemed to be a 2-3 point swing in the polls at least, whereas perfect tactical execution and allocation of resources would be a few fractions of a point.
posted by mark k at 10:44 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like I said, there's more to campaigning than TV advertising.
posted by Coventry at 10:55 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 10:55 AM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wonder if Assange sees murdered journalists as incidental or essential to Russia's more competitive media landscape.
Until now I thought Assange was merely a useful idiot driven by personal grudges. I won't be giving him that benefit of the doubt any longer.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:56 AM on December 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
Until now I thought Assange was merely a useful idiot driven by personal grudges. I won't be giving him that benefit of the doubt any longer.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:56 AM on December 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
Don't ever let anyone tell you that what you see with your own eyes isn't happening.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:13 AM on December 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:13 AM on December 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
@jimsciutto says that Israel is suspending "working ties" (sounds like diplomatic ties) with Britain, France, Russia, China, Japan, Ukraine, Angola, Egypt, Uruguay, Spain, Senegal and New Zealand
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:22 PM on December 26, 2016
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:22 PM on December 26, 2016
Well that should work out well for them.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:27 PM on December 26, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:27 PM on December 26, 2016 [10 favorites]
Oh man, I was really hoping to make it to new years without Armageddon.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:32 PM on December 26, 2016
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:32 PM on December 26, 2016
I think part of the problem is that people connect criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
posted by xyzzy at 12:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by xyzzy at 12:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why isn't the US on that list? ;)
posted by futz at 12:34 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 12:34 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why isn't the US on that list? ;)
Because we only threw them under the bus. We weren't driving said bus like the countries now in Israel's doghouse.
posted by Talez at 12:36 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because we only threw them under the bus. We weren't driving said bus like the countries now in Israel's doghouse.
posted by Talez at 12:36 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
@jimsciutto says that Israel is suspending "working ties"
This news fails one of the smoke tests in the "How to Spot Fake News" essay Mr Sciutto linked a couple of tweets down:
This news fails one of the smoke tests in the "How to Spot Fake News" essay Mr Sciutto linked a couple of tweets down:
Does the news source appear to employ editors?posted by Coventry at 12:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Suspending diplomatic ties" would mean things like sending ambassadors back home and closing embassies. "Working ties" just means things like inter-government meetings and so forth, IIRC. It's still pretty serious, of course. Netanyahu is reportedly concerned that Obama is planning another UN resolution that would be even worse for Israel, so he's pulling out all the stops.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:40 PM on December 26, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:40 PM on December 26, 2016
WaPo's Jennifer Rubin (who's been putting out lots of good stuff lately): Media resolutions for 2017
If there has been a worse year for media — mainstream, liberal, conservative — than 2016, it is hard to recall. (Perhaps 1798, the year the Alien Sedition Act was passed.) The president-elect berated, threatened and bullied the media throughout the year. The public’s trust in the media is at an all-time low. In September, a Gallup poll reported: “Americans’ trust and confidence in the mass media ‘to report the news fully, accurately and fairly’ has dropped to its lowest level in Gallup polling history, with 32% saying they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the media. This is down eight percentage points from last year.”
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
If there has been a worse year for media — mainstream, liberal, conservative — than 2016, it is hard to recall. (Perhaps 1798, the year the Alien Sedition Act was passed.) The president-elect berated, threatened and bullied the media throughout the year. The public’s trust in the media is at an all-time low. In September, a Gallup poll reported: “Americans’ trust and confidence in the mass media ‘to report the news fully, accurately and fairly’ has dropped to its lowest level in Gallup polling history, with 32% saying they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the media. This is down eight percentage points from last year.”
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
We weren't driving said bus like the countries now in Israel's doghouse.
According to their US Ambassador, Obama was driving it (again via CNN). Guess we'll see if any of this becomes "actionable" or if it is just media ops.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:48 PM on December 26, 2016
According to their US Ambassador, Obama was driving it (again via CNN). Guess we'll see if any of this becomes "actionable" or if it is just media ops.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:48 PM on December 26, 2016
It's not like they ever gave a damn what anybody else said or ever did anything helpfulvor useful anyway.
posted by Artw at 12:49 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:49 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, you should expect the Secretary of Defense to dutifully execute an order, the same as everyone else in the chain of command. And anyone who refuses would be instantly dismissed and replaced. In the military, concurrence with orders is not required
I, and Etrigan, do have reason to believe otherwise. Between us, I believe you are looking at nearly two decades of experience. What you are talking about is a stereotype, not the actual way the military works.
If Mattis is confirmed SecDef, he is not going to cooperate in burning the world. He has no family that can be threatened. All he has is the country he loves and the honor of the military service. And in a fight between Mattis and Trump for the hearts and minds of the US military, Mattis will win every time.
posted by corb at 1:02 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
I, and Etrigan, do have reason to believe otherwise. Between us, I believe you are looking at nearly two decades of experience. What you are talking about is a stereotype, not the actual way the military works.
If Mattis is confirmed SecDef, he is not going to cooperate in burning the world. He has no family that can be threatened. All he has is the country he loves and the honor of the military service. And in a fight between Mattis and Trump for the hearts and minds of the US military, Mattis will win every time.
posted by corb at 1:02 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Netanyahu is reportedly concerned that Obama is planning another UN resolution that would be even worse for Israel, so he's pulling out all the stops.
The only thing that Obama could do that would be "worse" for Bibi would be a resolution to admit Palestine to the UN as a full member.
posted by Talez at 1:06 PM on December 26, 2016
The only thing that Obama could do that would be "worse" for Bibi would be a resolution to admit Palestine to the UN as a full member.
posted by Talez at 1:06 PM on December 26, 2016
Doesn't the nuclear football cut Mattis out of the chain of command, though?
posted by Coventry at 1:06 PM on December 26, 2016
posted by Coventry at 1:06 PM on December 26, 2016
well corb, I genuinely hope you are right!
Personally, I think anything we rescue of our democracy out of the foreseeable future will be because of people like the scientists copying their data before they are ordered to destroy it, like someone doing as you say and refusing to do something terrible, in those risking their lives/careers to leak things, or putting in delays and monkey wrenches to slow them. But all those things are tentative and dangerous and likely to cause retribution and therefore not much to cling to.
Being far outside any government agency, I won't be the one having those choices, but I wish courage and moral strength to those that will have to make them.
posted by emjaybee at 1:08 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
Personally, I think anything we rescue of our democracy out of the foreseeable future will be because of people like the scientists copying their data before they are ordered to destroy it, like someone doing as you say and refusing to do something terrible, in those risking their lives/careers to leak things, or putting in delays and monkey wrenches to slow them. But all those things are tentative and dangerous and likely to cause retribution and therefore not much to cling to.
Being far outside any government agency, I won't be the one having those choices, but I wish courage and moral strength to those that will have to make them.
posted by emjaybee at 1:08 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
"If Trump tries to go too nuts there will be a military coup" is less reassuring than maybe you intend it to be, corb.
posted by Justinian at 1:09 PM on December 26, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:09 PM on December 26, 2016 [27 favorites]
There is a wide gap between "military coup" and "Mister President, I don't think you really want to fire an ICBM at Mexico City. How about we take a step back for a minute?"
posted by Etrigan at 1:12 PM on December 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 1:12 PM on December 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
Chats with my Trump voting ex-Navy brother in law over Christmas made it fully clear that the US military is utterly loaded with whack jobs and conspiracy theorists and any hope in them for some kind of sake response to Trump is as misplaced as hoping for, say, the electoral voters or the 2nd amendment to save us from tyranny.
posted by Artw at 1:12 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:12 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
Plus let's face it, Michael Flynn is Trumps favorite, and that guy has zero anchors to sanity except maybe a desire to get paid by Russia.
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Little did I anticipate a year ago that "Corb says that Donald Trump's appointee Mattis will have enough clout with the military to [do something, possibly threaten a coup] so that we don't have a nuclear war at 2am when Trump has been anger-tweeting" would be one of the most reassuring statements on the internet.
posted by Frowner at 1:14 PM on December 26, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 1:14 PM on December 26, 2016 [40 favorites]
It's really childish that they're treating a vote that condemns their slow, permanent occupation of the West Bank as tantamount to an international crime of genocidal intent. I'm really afraid that we're going to see them embrace open genocide in the coming decade or two. Once the rabid orthodox factions control the government through a demographic democratic deadlock, they'll just ethnically cleanse the whole place and threaten us with the Samson option while the world watches. And then we'll have a modern precedent for a western-style democracy-turned-autocracy committing genocide, and the Trumpists and Faragists and Pennists will froth for their own domestic "re-modeling".
I'm very afraid of the synergy present in these cross-western fascist movements. They're all going to share notes and look the other way on eachother's actions, and the world will be so worse for it. Genocide is one of the scariest ones for me. I really think that the fringes in their movements are itching to normalize that crime. Think of our pal here in Trump's cabinet who thinks, on some level, that the west is at war with all of Islam. If that's what he says in public, I'm afraid to learn what his proposed solutions are in private.
posted by constantinescharity at 1:15 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm very afraid of the synergy present in these cross-western fascist movements. They're all going to share notes and look the other way on eachother's actions, and the world will be so worse for it. Genocide is one of the scariest ones for me. I really think that the fringes in their movements are itching to normalize that crime. Think of our pal here in Trump's cabinet who thinks, on some level, that the west is at war with all of Islam. If that's what he says in public, I'm afraid to learn what his proposed solutions are in private.
posted by constantinescharity at 1:15 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
So I'm watching a documentary on the history of world trade, and the guy makes a point that the coming Trumpocracy may be similar to the East Indian Company: A government run by a company to maximise its profits.
posted by stonepharisee at 1:18 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by stonepharisee at 1:18 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
One thing that might actually be a little hopeful, though: when Trump takes power, he and his people will actually have to govern. They can just sit around tweeting and having affairs and stuff now, and they'll certainly do a terrible job when they're actually in office, but they will be on the hook for some unavoidable things and that contact with reality may get them to the "let's not have a nuclear war OR a trade war" place eventually.
Also, I think we have to keep our eyes on the ball. Trump and his ilk - to the extent that they're cunning enough - are probably relying on people thinking "whew, we're not going to have a nuclear war, I guess that's the best we can expect even if Social Security was abolished". In some ways, I'm less worried about nuclear war (because I think a lot of people both here and in China - especially in China) may posture but they aren't stupid than I am about Medicare, Social Security, deportations and prisons.
posted by Frowner at 1:18 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
Also, I think we have to keep our eyes on the ball. Trump and his ilk - to the extent that they're cunning enough - are probably relying on people thinking "whew, we're not going to have a nuclear war, I guess that's the best we can expect even if Social Security was abolished". In some ways, I'm less worried about nuclear war (because I think a lot of people both here and in China - especially in China) may posture but they aren't stupid than I am about Medicare, Social Security, deportations and prisons.
posted by Frowner at 1:18 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
I am not putting my hope in any one man to save us. Not Obama, not Mattis, no one.
posted by asteria at 1:23 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by asteria at 1:23 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Doesn't the nuclear football cut Mattis out of the chain of command, though?
I can't find anything authoritative on this, but it seems that most people believe Mattis would need to verify any that nuclear attack order actually came from Trump before it could be executed.
posted by Coventry at 1:28 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't find anything authoritative on this, but it seems that most people believe Mattis would need to verify any that nuclear attack order actually came from Trump before it could be executed.
posted by Coventry at 1:28 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Israel associating itself with neofascism is just fucking weird. I mean, all of this is fucking weird. I guess at some point we'll be screaming and rending our garments but at this point I'm just like WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I DON'T UNDERSTAND
posted by angrycat at 1:31 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 1:31 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
when Trump takes power, he and his people will actually have to govern.
Unfounded speculation.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on December 26, 2016 [17 favorites]
Unfounded speculation.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on December 26, 2016 [17 favorites]
Assange has been begging for asylum from Russia for some time now. I'd bet he gets it in the first 6 months of next year.
posted by benzenedream at 1:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 1:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
and Michael Brown did a heckuva job
posted by angrycat at 1:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 1:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Could Trump help unleash nuclear catastrophe with a single tweet? (WaPo)
Arms control experts I spoke with suggested that Trump’s willingness to Tweet about nuclear weapons raises the possibility of Trump doing the same as president — and more to the point, the possibility of him doing so amid some species of international crisis or escalation.
Jeffrey Lewis, a nuclear non-proliferation expert at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies, points out that in peacetime, any belligerent Trump Tweet about nuclear weapons might not appear as alarming, simply because “confirmation bias” might lead key actors not to interpret it in its most frightening light at that moment. Amid rising international tensions, though, that confirmation bias might work in the other direction, he says.
“Imagine we’re in a crisis — if he recklessly Tweets, people could read these things in the worst possible light,” Lewis tells me. “The North Koreans have a plan to use nuclear weapons very early in a conflict. They’re not going to wait around. If they think we are going, they’re going to use nuclear weapons against South Korea and Japan.”
Happy Boxing Day.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:37 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Arms control experts I spoke with suggested that Trump’s willingness to Tweet about nuclear weapons raises the possibility of Trump doing the same as president — and more to the point, the possibility of him doing so amid some species of international crisis or escalation.
Jeffrey Lewis, a nuclear non-proliferation expert at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies, points out that in peacetime, any belligerent Trump Tweet about nuclear weapons might not appear as alarming, simply because “confirmation bias” might lead key actors not to interpret it in its most frightening light at that moment. Amid rising international tensions, though, that confirmation bias might work in the other direction, he says.
“Imagine we’re in a crisis — if he recklessly Tweets, people could read these things in the worst possible light,” Lewis tells me. “The North Koreans have a plan to use nuclear weapons very early in a conflict. They’re not going to wait around. If they think we are going, they’re going to use nuclear weapons against South Korea and Japan.”
Happy Boxing Day.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:37 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
If Mattis is confirmed SecDef, he is not going to cooperate in burning the world. He has no family that can be threatened. All he has is the country he loves and the honor of the military service. And in a fight between Mattis and Trump for the hearts and minds of the US military, Mattis will win every time.
I would like to think Mattis will stand up for what's right, his history seems to say so, but then if that's the case I have to wonder why Trump chose him - it's not really in character for Trump to pick someone who would tell him no. I have to assume Mattis is either fooling Trump and the transition team, or fooling us.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:41 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would like to think Mattis will stand up for what's right, his history seems to say so, but then if that's the case I have to wonder why Trump chose him - it's not really in character for Trump to pick someone who would tell him no. I have to assume Mattis is either fooling Trump and the transition team, or fooling us.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:41 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Luckily Trump doesn't have impulse-control problems.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:42 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:42 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
New Google algorithm removes Holocaust denial sites from search results
Earlier this week, we reported that the first result for a query in the U.K. on whether the Holocaust happened claimed it did not — and that the result was returned from a white supremacist website. Now, Google has changed its algorithm to remove that result (and other denial sites) altogether.
This is an improvement over a previous fix, which simply bumped the search result down a bit in popularity. Now, it appears to be completely gone. Of course, it’s unclear how lasting a fix this is, and this certainly won’t be the only problematic query (with even more problematic search results) Google will have to reckon with.
posted by futz at 1:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Earlier this week, we reported that the first result for a query in the U.K. on whether the Holocaust happened claimed it did not — and that the result was returned from a white supremacist website. Now, Google has changed its algorithm to remove that result (and other denial sites) altogether.
This is an improvement over a previous fix, which simply bumped the search result down a bit in popularity. Now, it appears to be completely gone. Of course, it’s unclear how lasting a fix this is, and this certainly won’t be the only problematic query (with even more problematic search results) Google will have to reckon with.
posted by futz at 1:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure Trump chose Mattis because of the "Mad Dog" nickname. Seriously.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [16 favorites]
Great, so the existence of Twitter will get us all nuked!
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:44 PM on December 26, 2016
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:44 PM on December 26, 2016
It's really childish that they're treating a vote that condemns their slow, permanent occupation of the West Bank as tantamount to an international crime of genocidal intent.
Constantinescharity, the resolution doesn't say what you think it says. You know the Western Wall and the Old City, the places more associated with Jewish life and history than anywhere else in the world? The resolution describes those as "occupied" by Israel, and calls Israel's presence there a "flagrant violation of international law". The resolution describes the Jews who moved back to Jerusalem after their expulsion by Jordan as "occupiers," and it calls for legalised discrimination against them. You may think that the resolution is really talking about some vague places where Jews had no recent historical presence and uprooting them is no hard burden, but words mean what they mean, and the people who wrote the resolution want them in the most literal sense.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:45 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Constantinescharity, the resolution doesn't say what you think it says. You know the Western Wall and the Old City, the places more associated with Jewish life and history than anywhere else in the world? The resolution describes those as "occupied" by Israel, and calls Israel's presence there a "flagrant violation of international law". The resolution describes the Jews who moved back to Jerusalem after their expulsion by Jordan as "occupiers," and it calls for legalised discrimination against them. You may think that the resolution is really talking about some vague places where Jews had no recent historical presence and uprooting them is no hard burden, but words mean what they mean, and the people who wrote the resolution want them in the most literal sense.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:45 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
And international law holds that the Temple Mount / Dome of the Rock complex is in East Jerusalem which is legally occupied territory since 1967. You know this as well as I.
This is incredibly explosive stuff and needs to be negotiated carefully, with attention both to the facts on the ground and to the historical claims of all the involved communities. I believe in a strong and secure state of Israel, as well as a just and lasting peace in the Holy Land, and I think most people around here would agree on those goals. But I don't believe the Netanyahu government's expansionist policies in the West Bank are furthering that process, and the international community is recognizing that and demanding that they pull back from the brink.
You do have to start with some shared facts and boundaries from which to proceed with negotiations, and the Green Line is the most likely possibility. The current government of Israel are recklessly pushing forward with settlements and in the long run, they're killing any chance for a peaceful and democratic Jewish state in the Holy Land. That is the goal of Zionism, no?
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:57 PM on December 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
This is incredibly explosive stuff and needs to be negotiated carefully, with attention both to the facts on the ground and to the historical claims of all the involved communities. I believe in a strong and secure state of Israel, as well as a just and lasting peace in the Holy Land, and I think most people around here would agree on those goals. But I don't believe the Netanyahu government's expansionist policies in the West Bank are furthering that process, and the international community is recognizing that and demanding that they pull back from the brink.
You do have to start with some shared facts and boundaries from which to proceed with negotiations, and the Green Line is the most likely possibility. The current government of Israel are recklessly pushing forward with settlements and in the long run, they're killing any chance for a peaceful and democratic Jewish state in the Holy Land. That is the goal of Zionism, no?
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:57 PM on December 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
I can't find anything authoritative on this, but it seems that most people believe Mattis would need to verify any that nuclear attack order actually came from Trump before it could be executed.
Trump could just find someone else in the chain of command to verify the order. You don't think that they simply postpone a nuclear response because Mattis happens to be out playing golf that day.
posted by JackFlash at 2:00 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
Trump could just find someone else in the chain of command to verify the order. You don't think that they simply postpone a nuclear response because Mattis happens to be out playing golf that day.
posted by JackFlash at 2:00 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
You don't think that they simply postpone a nuclear response because Mattis happens to be out playing golf that day.
posted by JackFlash at 4:00 PM on December 26 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Well, there's my most depressing favorite to date, may I never have to favorite a bleaker comment in future.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:03 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 4:00 PM on December 26 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Well, there's my most depressing favorite to date, may I never have to favorite a bleaker comment in future.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:03 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
And in a fight between Mattis and Trump for the hearts and minds of the US military, Mattis will win every time.
Thank you for illustrating precisely why Mattis should not be Secretary of Defense. When the Defense Department was created in 1947, Congress specifically put in the law the requirement that the Secretary of Defense come from the civilian side, not the military, given their recent experience with the fascist militaristic regimes in Germany and Japan.
When we have a neo-fascist about to enter the White House is precisely the wrong time to start bending rules designed to restrict fascist tendencies.
posted by JackFlash at 2:05 PM on December 26, 2016 [24 favorites]
Thank you for illustrating precisely why Mattis should not be Secretary of Defense. When the Defense Department was created in 1947, Congress specifically put in the law the requirement that the Secretary of Defense come from the civilian side, not the military, given their recent experience with the fascist militaristic regimes in Germany and Japan.
When we have a neo-fascist about to enter the White House is precisely the wrong time to start bending rules designed to restrict fascist tendencies.
posted by JackFlash at 2:05 PM on December 26, 2016 [24 favorites]
then if that's the case I have to wonder why Trump chose him -
Like Johnny Wallflower, I think Trump chose him for his "politically incorrect" image, not realizing he's actuallly chosen a man who models himself on Marcus Aurelius to be a check on the man who is actually Commodus.
posted by corb at 2:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Like Johnny Wallflower, I think Trump chose him for his "politically incorrect" image, not realizing he's actuallly chosen a man who models himself on Marcus Aurelius to be a check on the man who is actually Commodus.
posted by corb at 2:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Joe in Australia: the resolution doesn't say what you think it says
Here is the resolution, and here are its references to Jerusalem:
Herzl understood early on that establishing a Jewish nation would involve colonialism, so it doesn't seem that weird to me, especially since the Jewish colonization of Palestine happened so late that explicitly wiping out the native population was no longer an ethical option. The existing power structures in Australia, the US or Canada would be just as hostile to any indigenous population wielding as much power as the Palestinians do.
posted by Coventry at 2:11 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here is the resolution, and here are its references to Jerusalem:
The Security Council, ... Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions,angrycat: Israel associating itself with neofascism is just fucking weird.
Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace;
Reiterates its demand that Israel immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and that it fully respect all of its legal obligations in this regard;
Underlines that it will not recognize any changes to the 4 June 1967 lines, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties through negotiations;
Herzl understood early on that establishing a Jewish nation would involve colonialism, so it doesn't seem that weird to me, especially since the Jewish colonization of Palestine happened so late that explicitly wiping out the native population was no longer an ethical option. The existing power structures in Australia, the US or Canada would be just as hostile to any indigenous population wielding as much power as the Palestinians do.
posted by Coventry at 2:11 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is incredibly explosive stuff and needs to be negotiated carefully, with attention both to the facts on the ground and to the historical claims of all the involved communities.
Which is why a "fsck you" act from Obama in the final three weeks of his administration is a bad idea. Even if the reolution had just been "we deplore Israeli settlements", it would have been unhelpful; this particular resolution is infinitely worse. The fact that this been a bonus for Trump and the Republican Party is just icing on the cake.
Here's Simon Tisdall's take on it, in The Guardian; it looks as though he reads the resolution the same way I do: Obama’s passing shot at Netanyahu is a futile gesture
Which is why a "fsck you" act from Obama in the final three weeks of his administration is a bad idea. Even if the reolution had just been "we deplore Israeli settlements", it would have been unhelpful; this particular resolution is infinitely worse. The fact that this been a bonus for Trump and the Republican Party is just icing on the cake.
Here's Simon Tisdall's take on it, in The Guardian; it looks as though he reads the resolution the same way I do: Obama’s passing shot at Netanyahu is a futile gesture
[...] In a sense, these are symbolic actions in response to a symbolic vote. Resolution 2334 is unenforceable. Nobody, least of all the Americans, will attempt to evict the 430,000 Jewish settlers currently living in the West Bank or the 200,000 in east Jerusalem.posted by Joe in Australia at 2:15 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
a man who models himself on Marcus Aurelius to be a check on the man who is actually Commodus.
If we must have an Emperor in these decadent days, then I'd sooner have a Hadrian or Marcus Aurelius than a Nero (tweeting while Rome burns) or Commodus, of course, but if we're actually counting on a military coup (or a threat thereof) to save us from the nuclear fire, then shit is bleak.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:19 PM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
If we must have an Emperor in these decadent days, then I'd sooner have a Hadrian or Marcus Aurelius than a Nero (tweeting while Rome burns) or Commodus, of course, but if we're actually counting on a military coup (or a threat thereof) to save us from the nuclear fire, then shit is bleak.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:19 PM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Trump's tweets today are straight up delusional. Saying that he would have beaten Obama if Obama had been running again, and that the UN "is just a club for people to get together, talk and have a good time."
1. Doesn't he have any family to spend time with over the holidays?
2. He's still trying to prove that he's unfit for office. Who does he have to talk to to get fired?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:22 PM on December 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
1. Doesn't he have any family to spend time with over the holidays?
2. He's still trying to prove that he's unfit for office. Who does he have to talk to to get fired?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:22 PM on December 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
The really depressing thing is I'm very sure not enough people in the position to do something will stand up to Trump enough to stop him or even get in his way much. There aren't enough Democrats to block him for long and not enough Republicans will stand up to him (although I have respect for people like McMullin who've been consistently opposed to him). I'm still stunned no one in the position to do so has truly hammered him over the Russian hacking or those horrible cabinet choices, and no concerted resistance appears to exist when it's needed most. (Yet - I have some hope that one will come, the question will be how much we can do.)
But I still want to try my best to resist from the limited position I'm in, because if we're going to go down I want to do some good and to have the knowledge that I opposed Trump as best I could. Bullies need to be stood up to, and we can send a message to Trump (moreso the Republicans and even the wider world, because I doubt he listens to anyone but himself) that there are people in America who do not stand for him or what he represents and will let them know it.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:27 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
But I still want to try my best to resist from the limited position I'm in, because if we're going to go down I want to do some good and to have the knowledge that I opposed Trump as best I could. Bullies need to be stood up to, and we can send a message to Trump (moreso the Republicans and even the wider world, because I doubt he listens to anyone but himself) that there are people in America who do not stand for him or what he represents and will let them know it.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:27 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
there are people in America who do not stand for him or what he represents and will let them know it.
I've been planning an In-Hog-Uration party at which I'm thinking of running High Noon and Red Dawn in the background.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:35 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've been planning an In-Hog-Uration party at which I'm thinking of running High Noon and Red Dawn in the background.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:35 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why do you think Tisdall sees it your way, Joe in Australia? How do you reconcile his conclusion?
posted by Coventry at 2:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like Netanyahu, [Obama's 2009 promise of a “new beginning” for the Middle East] went unfulfilled. And it is fitting that his final days in office should be marked by petulance and impotence. Obama did not push nearly hard enough for peace when the regional climate might have allowed it. In 2011, he vetoed a similar UN resolution, arguing US-brokered talks would find a way forward. Obama, senior partner in a dysfunctional relationship, allowed Netanyahu to beard him repeatedly, not least in the latter’s self-justificatory 2015 address to Congress. Cautious to the end, even Obama’s UN demarche on Friday was half-hearted. If he really believes settlements are undermining peace, why abstain? Why not go the whole hog and vote to condemn them? And why wait seven years?Edit: Added dropped last paragraph of conclusion.
What happens next, in the dawning Trump era, is deeply worrying. A continuing, polarising stalemate over Palestinian statehood looks probable. So, too, do expanding settlements on occupied land and possibly annexations, as mooted by Netanyahu’s rightwing allies. How long before the Palestinian response grows violent once again? And how long before Netanyahu induces an impulsive, know-nothing Trump to take joint action against the bigger target, Iran?
posted by Coventry at 2:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
the UN "is just a club for people to get together, talk and have a good time."
He holds a grudge against them from way back when they spurned his offer to renovate the U.N. building and put in "beautiful large marble slabs".
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:40 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
He holds a grudge against them from way back when they spurned his offer to renovate the U.N. building and put in "beautiful large marble slabs".
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:40 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Israel associating itself with neofascism is just fucking weird. I mean, all of this is fucking weird. I guess at some point we'll be screaming and rending our garments but at this point I'm just like WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I DON'T UNDERSTAND
History has a sick sense of humor
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:45 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
History has a sick sense of humor
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:45 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why do you think Tisdall sees it your way,
He recognises that the resolution calls for the expulsion of Jews. He also recognises that it's unhelpful and stupid, a flailing shot from a lame-duck President whose legacy is Donald Trump.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:48 PM on December 26, 2016
He recognises that the resolution calls for the expulsion of Jews. He also recognises that it's unhelpful and stupid, a flailing shot from a lame-duck President whose legacy is Donald Trump.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:48 PM on December 26, 2016
Like I said, there's more to campaigning than TV advertising.
But diminishing returns applies to all of it. Rallies, neighborhood canvassing, fliers, and so on. I've seen some believable arguments that the Clinton org. didn't do in person outreach to true undecideds until too late in the cycle. But an argument that the Clinton campaign should have shifted tactics within a state does not support an argument that they should have shifted resources between states.
In any event, the Trump campaign was by all accounts a complete mess. Clinton didn't underperform Trump in the campaign organizing logistics; she could have done better but it's not the key thing IMHO to focus on.
posted by mark k at 3:13 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
But diminishing returns applies to all of it. Rallies, neighborhood canvassing, fliers, and so on. I've seen some believable arguments that the Clinton org. didn't do in person outreach to true undecideds until too late in the cycle. But an argument that the Clinton campaign should have shifted tactics within a state does not support an argument that they should have shifted resources between states.
In any event, the Trump campaign was by all accounts a complete mess. Clinton didn't underperform Trump in the campaign organizing logistics; she could have done better but it's not the key thing IMHO to focus on.
posted by mark k at 3:13 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
He recognises that the resolution calls for the expulsion of Jews.
you can't just drop a turd like this on the carpet without an explanation.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:16 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
you can't just drop a turd like this on the carpet without an explanation.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:16 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
So just to be clear, right now the biggest issue in US politics is a UN resolution that the United States abstained from against the behavior of a country that has ignored all of the previous UN resolutions on this very topic.
posted by srboisvert at 3:29 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 3:29 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's certainly a bigger deal than the slaughter in Syria, the impending invasion of Europe, the south China sea situation which may lead to another invasion and/or nuclear exchange, etc...
posted by Artw at 3:34 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:34 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
The world was gloomy before I won - there was no hope. Now the market is up nearly 10% and Christmas spending is over a trillion dollars!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:39 PM on December 26, 2016
The world was gloomy before I won - there was no hope. Now the market is up nearly 10% and Christmas spending is over a trillion dollars!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:39 PM on December 26, 2016
In any event, the Trump campaign was by all accounts a complete mess. Clinton didn't underperform Trump in the campaign organizing logistics; she could have done better but it's not the key thing IMHO to focus on.
What still shocks me even after analysis of why it happened is how Trump managed to have the success he did while thumbing his nose at the establishment candidates of both sides and most of the world, running an utterly ramshackle excuse for a campaign, and demonstrating multiple times that he knows absolutely nothing about politics and how it works (and, even more damning, can't even admit to being wrong).
I guess the old saying about the devil's children having the devil's luck is true.
On a constructive note, I kind of like the idea of adopting some of the Tea Party's tactics to become a loud, persistent thorn in Trump's side without emulating the Tea Party's ugliness - the only problem I can see is that the Tea Party had big, rich, and powerful allies under their grassroots cover and we have less resources (although we do have numbers - I'm interested if more online opposition bases form along the lines of OWS and BLM to unify Trump opponents).
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
What still shocks me even after analysis of why it happened is how Trump managed to have the success he did while thumbing his nose at the establishment candidates of both sides and most of the world, running an utterly ramshackle excuse for a campaign, and demonstrating multiple times that he knows absolutely nothing about politics and how it works (and, even more damning, can't even admit to being wrong).
I guess the old saying about the devil's children having the devil's luck is true.
On a constructive note, I kind of like the idea of adopting some of the Tea Party's tactics to become a loud, persistent thorn in Trump's side without emulating the Tea Party's ugliness - the only problem I can see is that the Tea Party had big, rich, and powerful allies under their grassroots cover and we have less resources (although we do have numbers - I'm interested if more online opposition bases form along the lines of OWS and BLM to unify Trump opponents).
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Let's not veer off into debating the particular UN resolution, which seems like a ticket to argue-endlessly-about-Israel/Palestine-issues town.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't think Trump has the slightest interest in governing in a conventional sense. I suspect he actually will operate by taking briefings and doing functions when he's in the mood and tweeting his bon mots without bothering to ask anybody else if they might be problematical.
I have been thinking about this for several weeks and have come to believe this basically means the Executive Branch will be headless during Trump's administration. The agencies headed by the hundreds of vacant spaces he doesn't bother to fill will be run by administrators. They might not have the authority they will need to do their jobs but they won't have anybody with more authority to tell them not to. The agencies headed by the antigovernment stooges Trump is appointing will also probably more or less run on in idle, mostly ignoring the "leaders" who don't know how the agency works anyway.
Since Trump has already shown his hand with regard to nuclear matters, I suspect the grownups at the Pentagon are already building a plan to keep him contained. Those men have spent their lives building and protecting our position in the current world order and they're not going to just let it dissolve because Trump said to nuke North Korea.
This is an incalculably dangerous time. The "good news" if it is true would effectively mean that the incoming administration will be ignored by the people they are supposed to be leading. It means that both the military and civilian bureaucracies will basically be running on their own. It will be a breakdown of governance such as our country has never seen.
The thing is, while I don't think any of the grownups will let Trump start WWIII, the larger question is whether these entities will submit to executive control again when Trump exits and an actual adult retakes his seat. People who have had a taste of independence tend to be loathe to give it up. I think a lot of people will agree that Mattis should have his hand on Trump's wrist if Trump reaches for the nuclear football, but the much larger and more bothersome question is whether a more competent future president will have control of it at all.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [17 favorites]
I have been thinking about this for several weeks and have come to believe this basically means the Executive Branch will be headless during Trump's administration. The agencies headed by the hundreds of vacant spaces he doesn't bother to fill will be run by administrators. They might not have the authority they will need to do their jobs but they won't have anybody with more authority to tell them not to. The agencies headed by the antigovernment stooges Trump is appointing will also probably more or less run on in idle, mostly ignoring the "leaders" who don't know how the agency works anyway.
Since Trump has already shown his hand with regard to nuclear matters, I suspect the grownups at the Pentagon are already building a plan to keep him contained. Those men have spent their lives building and protecting our position in the current world order and they're not going to just let it dissolve because Trump said to nuke North Korea.
This is an incalculably dangerous time. The "good news" if it is true would effectively mean that the incoming administration will be ignored by the people they are supposed to be leading. It means that both the military and civilian bureaucracies will basically be running on their own. It will be a breakdown of governance such as our country has never seen.
The thing is, while I don't think any of the grownups will let Trump start WWIII, the larger question is whether these entities will submit to executive control again when Trump exits and an actual adult retakes his seat. People who have had a taste of independence tend to be loathe to give it up. I think a lot of people will agree that Mattis should have his hand on Trump's wrist if Trump reaches for the nuclear football, but the much larger and more bothersome question is whether a more competent future president will have control of it at all.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [17 favorites]
I would like to think Mattis will stand up for what's right, his history seems to say so, but then if that's the case I have to wonder why Trump chose him...
It could be as simple as the belief Obama wanted him out and Fynn didn't want him back in.
but if we're actually counting on a military coup (or a threat thereof) to save us from the nuclear fire, then shit is bleak.
Shit is bleak anyway.
There is a spectrum of responses to the president, obey lawful orders, refuse unlawful orders, mutiny all come before coup d'etat.
What I find weird is normally Gen. Neller as Commandant of the Marine Corps would be the high profile Marine, now we're talking about Kelly as Sec DHS, Mattis as SecDef and Dunford as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff. That is just a lot of Marines.
posted by ridgerunner at 3:55 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
It could be as simple as the belief Obama wanted him out and Fynn didn't want him back in.
but if we're actually counting on a military coup (or a threat thereof) to save us from the nuclear fire, then shit is bleak.
Shit is bleak anyway.
There is a spectrum of responses to the president, obey lawful orders, refuse unlawful orders, mutiny all come before coup d'etat.
What I find weird is normally Gen. Neller as Commandant of the Marine Corps would be the high profile Marine, now we're talking about Kelly as Sec DHS, Mattis as SecDef and Dunford as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff. That is just a lot of Marines.
posted by ridgerunner at 3:55 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Historically the ranch of the armed forces that exists to shoot mutineers.
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
Bringer Tom: The thing is, while I don't think any of the grownups will let Trump start WWIII
The problem is there is no legal or procedural mechanism to stop him. His launch order only needs to be authenticated that it's coming from him, not that there's a real threat, that it's an ethical decision, or that he hasn't had some kind of psychotic break. If the Sec of Defense refuses to authenticate that the order came from the President, he can be fired at the President's discretion and the another ranking officer in the situation room can authenticate it is actually the President giving the order. There is no formal debate built into the launch chain. The only way to stop it would be a military coup.
I don't actually fear Trump starting World War III with another nuclear power. I fear him using a single nuke as a show of force, like, say, taking Tehran out because hardliners are whispering in his ear about them being close to getting the bomb.
posted by bluecore at 4:07 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
The problem is there is no legal or procedural mechanism to stop him. His launch order only needs to be authenticated that it's coming from him, not that there's a real threat, that it's an ethical decision, or that he hasn't had some kind of psychotic break. If the Sec of Defense refuses to authenticate that the order came from the President, he can be fired at the President's discretion and the another ranking officer in the situation room can authenticate it is actually the President giving the order. There is no formal debate built into the launch chain. The only way to stop it would be a military coup.
I don't actually fear Trump starting World War III with another nuclear power. I fear him using a single nuke as a show of force, like, say, taking Tehran out because hardliners are whispering in his ear about them being close to getting the bomb.
posted by bluecore at 4:07 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
Or he provokes a nuclear exchange between others and things escalate from there.
posted by Artw at 4:17 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:17 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
The only way to stop it would be a military coup.
And if Trump orders a nuclear strike I think that's exactly what will happen, although it may be a low key, behind the scenes coup that probably leaves Trump in office and bloviating as usual. And let's face it, it will be a welcome coup if it saves the world. I don't think there is any such thing as "just nuking Teheran" as a show of force. Any act like that will quickly escalate to WWIII within a matter of weeks. Nobody is going to be willing to let it rest after they or one of their allies is nuked.
We've already been saved from nuclear holocaust at least twice by people not following orders. But that's why I said the bigger worry is whether the executive ever regains control. It's a dangerous precedent to tell the military it's OK to ignore the President, even when it's a spectacularly good idea in the case of a particular incident.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:25 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
And if Trump orders a nuclear strike I think that's exactly what will happen, although it may be a low key, behind the scenes coup that probably leaves Trump in office and bloviating as usual. And let's face it, it will be a welcome coup if it saves the world. I don't think there is any such thing as "just nuking Teheran" as a show of force. Any act like that will quickly escalate to WWIII within a matter of weeks. Nobody is going to be willing to let it rest after they or one of their allies is nuked.
We've already been saved from nuclear holocaust at least twice by people not following orders. But that's why I said the bigger worry is whether the executive ever regains control. It's a dangerous precedent to tell the military it's OK to ignore the President, even when it's a spectacularly good idea in the case of a particular incident.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:25 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
Into the Armageddon-fear stewpot I'd like to toss in: a Petrov-style computer glitch happens in one of any number of possible countries but because of the overall heightened fear, tension, and chaos, this boo-boo isn't averted.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:27 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:27 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
A Russia that knows America isn't going to do shit would be much more likely to use nukes in one of its engagements. The threat of that in turn could make some of the remaining NATO countries that are under threat of invasion much more likely to use their own.
posted by Artw at 4:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
f the Sec of Defense refuses to authenticate that the order came from the President, he can be fired at the President's discretion and the another ranking officer in the situation room can authenticate it is actually the President giving the order.
The National Command Authority is not composed of the President of the United States and whoever is standing next to him in a uniform. The Secretary of Defense has Assistant Secretaries and Undersecretaries and generally a chain of continuity. They're civilians pretty far down that list of people who become the Acting Secretary in turn, not "another ranking officer in the situation room".
posted by Etrigan at 4:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
The National Command Authority is not composed of the President of the United States and whoever is standing next to him in a uniform. The Secretary of Defense has Assistant Secretaries and Undersecretaries and generally a chain of continuity. They're civilians pretty far down that list of people who become the Acting Secretary in turn, not "another ranking officer in the situation room".
posted by Etrigan at 4:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
things escalate from there.
It's called The Security Dilemma: in a chaotic, irrational time, rational actions taken by states in the interest of their own perceived security contribute to the gradual increase of global tensions, provoking similar actions by other entities, and so on and so forth.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's called The Security Dilemma: in a chaotic, irrational time, rational actions taken by states in the interest of their own perceived security contribute to the gradual increase of global tensions, provoking similar actions by other entities, and so on and so forth.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:33 PM on December 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
The scenario to worry about is one in which there's enough rationale for a launch that Mattis and other defense figures aren't inclined to stop it, in a crisis brought on by ineptitude in the political sphere that they have no control over.
Not one in which Trump wants to launch because he thought @AwYeahTollah was an official account.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:35 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not one in which Trump wants to launch because he thought @AwYeahTollah was an official account.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:35 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd like to toss in: a Petrov-style computer glitch
I am actually less worried about this than I have ever been in my life because the right people have proven to be pretty suspicious of those warnings. The much bigger problem IMO is a hothead glitch, as Trump and Putin both seem to be the kind of people who might push the button in a fit of pique to show their trumanliness.
The thing is, Trump has already shown he will be an unstable and untrustworthy custodian of the nuclear football, and I suspect the people who have spent their lives studying Nash equilibria and sharing the math with our enemies to make sure they understand our strategy are probably already forming a strategy to deal with him. They will never, ever admit to this if we luck out and they don't need that strategy, but they're not the kind of men to watch this situation develop without agreeing among themselves that they have to have a way to deal with it if things turn pear-shaped.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:36 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am actually less worried about this than I have ever been in my life because the right people have proven to be pretty suspicious of those warnings. The much bigger problem IMO is a hothead glitch, as Trump and Putin both seem to be the kind of people who might push the button in a fit of pique to show their trumanliness.
The thing is, Trump has already shown he will be an unstable and untrustworthy custodian of the nuclear football, and I suspect the people who have spent their lives studying Nash equilibria and sharing the math with our enemies to make sure they understand our strategy are probably already forming a strategy to deal with him. They will never, ever admit to this if we luck out and they don't need that strategy, but they're not the kind of men to watch this situation develop without agreeing among themselves that they have to have a way to deal with it if things turn pear-shaped.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:36 PM on December 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also: Generally it is assumed that the president does not want major US population centers nuked in retaliation. This cannot be assumed of Trump. If China vaporized the West coast he probably couldn't be happier.
posted by Artw at 4:38 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:38 PM on December 26, 2016 [12 favorites]
although it may be a low key, behind the scenes coup that probably leaves Trump in office and bloviating as usual.
How would this work? This isn't how any of this works. When people get in Trump's way he makes a lot of noise. And if he's learned anything of the course of the campaign, he does pretty damn well when he's making a big fuss about his enemies. I don't believe for a second that he'll allow anyone to defy him so directly as to countermand his orders. The president doesn't bloviate, he commands and people who disobey Trump's commands, or disagree with him directly, will be removed, with great public fanfare, probably marched in front of the TV as traitors, or they'll have to do a real coup, the kind where the president is illegally imprisoned and removed from the chain of command.
posted by dis_integration at 4:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
How would this work? This isn't how any of this works. When people get in Trump's way he makes a lot of noise. And if he's learned anything of the course of the campaign, he does pretty damn well when he's making a big fuss about his enemies. I don't believe for a second that he'll allow anyone to defy him so directly as to countermand his orders. The president doesn't bloviate, he commands and people who disobey Trump's commands, or disagree with him directly, will be removed, with great public fanfare, probably marched in front of the TV as traitors, or they'll have to do a real coup, the kind where the president is illegally imprisoned and removed from the chain of command.
posted by dis_integration at 4:39 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
How would this work?
Mr. Trump, I have three letters for you to consider: J, F, and K. Now, what were you saying again?
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:40 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mr. Trump, I have three letters for you to consider: J, F, and K. Now, what were you saying again?
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:40 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
President Obama says he could have beaten Trump — Trump says ‘NO WAY!’
Now that is some presidential-grade trolling! I'm gonna miss President Obama.
posted by TedW at 4:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [10 favorites]
Now that is some presidential-grade trolling! I'm gonna miss President Obama.
posted by TedW at 4:43 PM on December 26, 2016 [10 favorites]
If China vaporized the West coast he probably couldn't be happier.
NYC is a more likely target though, under just about any scenario. It's a bit longer reach than Los Angeles but China has missiles that can get there.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:44 PM on December 26, 2016
NYC is a more likely target though, under just about any scenario. It's a bit longer reach than Los Angeles but China has missiles that can get there.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:44 PM on December 26, 2016
No superpower just hits a handful of cities in a nuclear exchange with a rival. Can we leave this sort of morbid can-kicking to the threads about fallout maps and etc?
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:46 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:46 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
There are a lot of Chinese in NYC, and in California. The PRC, if it came to it, would be better off to nuke Duluth, Kansas City, or similar.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:47 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 4:47 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
No superpower just hits a handful of cities
The PRC, if it came to it, would be better off to nuke Duluth, Kansas City, or similar.
China has pursued a very cost-effective nuclear strategy. They know you don't need ten thousand H-bombs to seriously ruin your opponent's day, so they didn't waste the money to build that many. Instead they built a few hundred, knowing that twenty or so in key places would mean the end of either Russia or the US as a superpower. And if they launch, that's what they will launch. Since there is no effective defense it means all the largest population centers will be hit, massively disrupting everything even if they only directly kill ten or fifteen percent of the total population. Sure what we send back to China would be massively worse, but that really doesn't matter on this scale of conflict.
And this is why I think the serious people won't let things develop to that point. After the crazy people were ejected from SAC in the 1960's those who followed have devoted their lives to keeping this genie in its bottle. And I don't think they will drop that ball just because Orange Julius asks them to.
But I do worry that once they establish who is really running things, that will become a situation that doesn't really change.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:58 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
The PRC, if it came to it, would be better off to nuke Duluth, Kansas City, or similar.
China has pursued a very cost-effective nuclear strategy. They know you don't need ten thousand H-bombs to seriously ruin your opponent's day, so they didn't waste the money to build that many. Instead they built a few hundred, knowing that twenty or so in key places would mean the end of either Russia or the US as a superpower. And if they launch, that's what they will launch. Since there is no effective defense it means all the largest population centers will be hit, massively disrupting everything even if they only directly kill ten or fifteen percent of the total population. Sure what we send back to China would be massively worse, but that really doesn't matter on this scale of conflict.
And this is why I think the serious people won't let things develop to that point. After the crazy people were ejected from SAC in the 1960's those who followed have devoted their lives to keeping this genie in its bottle. And I don't think they will drop that ball just because Orange Julius asks them to.
But I do worry that once they establish who is really running things, that will become a situation that doesn't really change.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:58 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
a lame-duck President whose legacy is Donald Trump.
Yep, a racist backlash to the first black president is clearly his fault. Just like Jim Crow after Reconstruction was clearly the legacy of the southern blacks who tried to participate in democracy post Civil War.
posted by chris24 at 5:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
Yep, a racist backlash to the first black president is clearly his fault. Just like Jim Crow after Reconstruction was clearly the legacy of the southern blacks who tried to participate in democracy post Civil War.
posted by chris24 at 5:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
I wonder if Assange sees murdered journalists as incidental or essential to Russia's more competitive media landscape.
That's the subtext, in the context of the idea of media oppositional to the gov't:
Novaya Gazeta etc. get persecuted by the Kremlin.
Wikileaks and associates get persecuted by the USG & allies.
Where's the Western media sufficiently threatening their governments to merit persecution?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:07 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's the subtext, in the context of the idea of media oppositional to the gov't:
Novaya Gazeta etc. get persecuted by the Kremlin.
Wikileaks and associates get persecuted by the USG & allies.
Where's the Western media sufficiently threatening their governments to merit persecution?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:07 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
And this is why I think the serious people won't let things develop to that point. After the crazy people were ejected from SAC in the 1960's those who followed have devoted their lives to keeping this genie in its bottle. And I don't think they will drop that ball just because Orange Julius asks them to.
The problem is that the irrationality of the political sphere -- specifically of Trump -- could create possibilities for perfectly rational escalation in the military and international sphere, at least as perceived by the ranks of functionaries in nuclear armed countries.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:07 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
The problem is that the irrationality of the political sphere -- specifically of Trump -- could create possibilities for perfectly rational escalation in the military and international sphere, at least as perceived by the ranks of functionaries in nuclear armed countries.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:07 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
These "serious people" do not exist.
posted by Artw at 5:08 PM on December 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:08 PM on December 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
...there is no legal or procedural mechanism to stop him. His launch order only needs to be authenticated that it's coming from him, not that there's a real threat, that it's an ethical decision, or that he hasn't had some kind of psychotic break.
Another thing is—even if there's more latitude for insubordination within the system connecting the President to the ability to launch nuclear weapons than is believed, more than appears within any documentation of that system, then whoever has that latitude contemplating its future use as a consequence of Trump constantly saying stupid things about nuclear weapons, is prying fractures in the system wider open just at what may be the height of Russia and other powers trying to interfere in our internal affairs.
Even if the efforts of the entire country and political establishment can counteract and stabilize a President who can be provoked with a tweet, if just having his volatility at the helm makes it possible to pry loose someone lower in the military or political food chain, against whom an opponent can bring to bear much more forceful provocation—think of the Claire Underwood FLOTUS-slash-UN-ambassador character in the US House of Cards deceived by a Russian diplomat appearing to sacrifice his own career to give her information, or maybe more plausibly an earlier-in-his-career General Flynn equivalent having exactly the conspiracy theory he wants to believe dangled in front of his face by hackers or other intrigue planting false information—as in so many other ways, having Trump in charge of things makes it so that Trump by himself isn't the primary problem at some point, but the discord he sows on all sides.
posted by XMLicious at 5:10 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Another thing is—even if there's more latitude for insubordination within the system connecting the President to the ability to launch nuclear weapons than is believed, more than appears within any documentation of that system, then whoever has that latitude contemplating its future use as a consequence of Trump constantly saying stupid things about nuclear weapons, is prying fractures in the system wider open just at what may be the height of Russia and other powers trying to interfere in our internal affairs.
Even if the efforts of the entire country and political establishment can counteract and stabilize a President who can be provoked with a tweet, if just having his volatility at the helm makes it possible to pry loose someone lower in the military or political food chain, against whom an opponent can bring to bear much more forceful provocation—think of the Claire Underwood FLOTUS-slash-UN-ambassador character in the US House of Cards deceived by a Russian diplomat appearing to sacrifice his own career to give her information, or maybe more plausibly an earlier-in-his-career General Flynn equivalent having exactly the conspiracy theory he wants to believe dangled in front of his face by hackers or other intrigue planting false information—as in so many other ways, having Trump in charge of things makes it so that Trump by himself isn't the primary problem at some point, but the discord he sows on all sides.
posted by XMLicious at 5:10 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
twenty or so [H-bombs] in key places would mean the end of either Russia or the US as a superpowerI’ve been spending too much time lately thinking about VSauce3’s video about nuclear winter, which has become terrifyingly relevant. It turns out that even a small-scale nuclear war—if such a thing is possible—renders the planet nigh-uninhabitable. So, basically, hope for quick and painless death is my opinion. (Sources are cited in the video’s description.)
posted by reluctant early bird at 5:10 PM on December 26, 2016
Etrigan: The National Command Authority is not composed of the President of the United States and whoever is standing next to him in a uniform. The Secretary of Defense has Assistant Secretaries and Undersecretaries and generally a chain of continuity. They're civilians pretty far down that list of people who become the Acting Secretary in turn, not "another ranking officer in the situation room".
Except the Command Authority is for continuity of government should we sustain losses. There is no legal way in the moment a Sec of Defense can challenge the President's launch order. The current protocol, as far as we know, is that he just confirms that it's an authentic order from the President, which in theory could be confirmed in the room by a lower military official. But even that protocol isn't enshrined in the Constitution -- it can be changed by Trump as well. We've never had a situation where the Sec. of Defense disobeyed a launch order, so we don't know what will happen. We've had situations where the Sec of Defense said "uh, come to me first if he gives a launch order" (Nixon) but we've never crossed the rubicon on this.
posted by bluecore at 5:15 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Except the Command Authority is for continuity of government should we sustain losses. There is no legal way in the moment a Sec of Defense can challenge the President's launch order. The current protocol, as far as we know, is that he just confirms that it's an authentic order from the President, which in theory could be confirmed in the room by a lower military official. But even that protocol isn't enshrined in the Constitution -- it can be changed by Trump as well. We've never had a situation where the Sec. of Defense disobeyed a launch order, so we don't know what will happen. We've had situations where the Sec of Defense said "uh, come to me first if he gives a launch order" (Nixon) but we've never crossed the rubicon on this.
posted by bluecore at 5:15 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
> Where's the Western media sufficiently threatening their governments to merit persecution?
This begs the question by presuming a level of wrongdoing at the scope and scale of Putin's that would make Putin-like reprisals of the media necessary, and also that going after journalists isn't itself part of that wrongdoing. I would not expect a mainstream outlet exposing wrongdoing in the USG to be treated well by the USG, but I would also not expect journalists to be disappearing under suspicious circumstances. There's no factual basis for assuming that all ideologies, systems, and regimes are equally horrible.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:20 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
This begs the question by presuming a level of wrongdoing at the scope and scale of Putin's that would make Putin-like reprisals of the media necessary, and also that going after journalists isn't itself part of that wrongdoing. I would not expect a mainstream outlet exposing wrongdoing in the USG to be treated well by the USG, but I would also not expect journalists to be disappearing under suspicious circumstances. There's no factual basis for assuming that all ideologies, systems, and regimes are equally horrible.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:20 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
The world was gloomy before I won - there was no hope. Now the market is up nearly 10% and Christmas spending is over a trillion dollars!
Yep, my definition of the clouds being lifted for sure.
posted by Rykey at 5:21 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yep, my definition of the clouds being lifted for sure.
posted by Rykey at 5:21 PM on December 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
...my definition of the clouds being lifted for sure.
The sky is the color of $1000 bills...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:29 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
The sky is the color of $1000 bills...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:29 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
it is bleak
a) yep
b) yglisias (i know) thinks it is a wrap for american democracy
c) hoping we have more petrovs than we know of
d) sub-hoping somebody disobeys and goes to jail rather than end earth for humans
e) fucking comey
posted by j_curiouser at 5:35 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
a) yep
b) yglisias (i know) thinks it is a wrap for american democracy
c) hoping we have more petrovs than we know of
d) sub-hoping somebody disobeys and goes to jail rather than end earth for humans
e) fucking comey
posted by j_curiouser at 5:35 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I posted above about Google changing their algorithm so that it removes holocaust denial sites. Well, I just tried it and the website discussed in the linked article is the first hit on the 2nd Google results page.
I searched for "did the holocaust happen". Is this something that takes awhile to filter out or is this bunk news? Anyone in the know here that has some insight?
posted by futz at 5:48 PM on December 26, 2016
I searched for "did the holocaust happen". Is this something that takes awhile to filter out or is this bunk news? Anyone in the know here that has some insight?
posted by futz at 5:48 PM on December 26, 2016
Well, I just tried it and the website discussed in the linked article is the first hit on the 2nd Google results page.
There's a second Google results page?
posted by Etrigan at 5:54 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's a second Google results page?
posted by Etrigan at 5:54 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's a second Google results page?
It's Google results pages all the way down.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's Google results pages all the way down.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
The problem is there is no legal or procedural mechanism to stop him. His launch order only needs to be authenticated that it's coming from him, not that there's a real threat, that it's an ethical decision, or that he hasn't had some kind of psychotic break.
I'm starting to see some flaws inherent in the system.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:28 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I find it really hard to understand why he is still Director. What can Obabma possibly have to gain by keeping him in place?
Causing a controversy now would harm Democratic politicians' chances in the 2018 elections. Once those are out of the way, you just wait and see.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:28 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Causing a controversy now would harm Democratic politicians' chances in the 2018 elections. Once those are out of the way, you just wait and see.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:28 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
What can Obabma possibly have to gain by keeping him in place?
Trump would pick someone worse.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:28 PM on December 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
Obergruppenfuhrer Comey is not a man to be trifled with.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:29 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:29 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Where's the Western media sufficiently threatening their governments to merit persecution?
Ha ha. The Russian media is freer and more competitive because journalists live in fear of being killed and persecuted! Western journalists should be so lucky!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:32 PM on December 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
Ha ha. The Russian media is freer and more competitive because journalists live in fear of being killed and persecuted! Western journalists should be so lucky!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:32 PM on December 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
journalism works best in a hobbesian kill or be killed marketplace of ideas!
posted by localhuman at 7:22 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by localhuman at 7:22 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
A blogger in Russia has just been sentenced to 2.5 years in prison for criticizing Russian air strikes in Syria.
posted by bluecore at 7:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by bluecore at 7:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [20 favorites]
The current protocol, as far as we know, is that he just confirms that it's an authentic order from the President, which in theory could be confirmed in the room by a lower military official.
Yes, it could be. And thatis why you have to ask yourself Why isn't that the protocol? Corollary to that, ask yourself Why is this the only instance that actual military servicepersons can think of that carries this "a specific person must confirm the authenticity" protocol despite there also being other protocols in place (e.g., the "football") to confirm the authenticity of the order?
It's because despite the "legal" (or "technical" or however you want to frame it) protocol being that the President of the United States can, all by his lonesome, order a nuclear strike for any reason down to and including none whatsoever, that's not really how everyone involved understands it.
Yes, Trump could absolutely change it. And it's absolutely possible that Secretary Mattis will go along with dropping one on Tehran just because. But there are things that are far more likely to happen that should occupy more of our worrying time and effort.
posted by Etrigan at 8:41 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, it could be. And thatis why you have to ask yourself Why isn't that the protocol? Corollary to that, ask yourself Why is this the only instance that actual military servicepersons can think of that carries this "a specific person must confirm the authenticity" protocol despite there also being other protocols in place (e.g., the "football") to confirm the authenticity of the order?
It's because despite the "legal" (or "technical" or however you want to frame it) protocol being that the President of the United States can, all by his lonesome, order a nuclear strike for any reason down to and including none whatsoever, that's not really how everyone involved understands it.
Yes, Trump could absolutely change it. And it's absolutely possible that Secretary Mattis will go along with dropping one on Tehran just because. But there are things that are far more likely to happen that should occupy more of our worrying time and effort.
posted by Etrigan at 8:41 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
One thing to understand is, Trump is a career criminal with international connections. Another is, Trump wants to reign supreme. And while he can't do that as president, because of constitutional law, he can use his position as president to assist in getting to that goal. So the question is, what would he need to do in order to suspend constitutional law with martial law?
My biggest fear is that Trump would use his international criminal connections to bring about a major attack on at least one US city, something more heinous than 9/11. Say, a dirty bomb in San Francisco. In so doing, he would remove a major bastion of opposition as well as, possibly, one of his most formidable political opponents. And with plausible deniability that he was involved in some way, his use of martial law to leap to the "defense" of the coastal liberals would also effectively disrupt the rest of the opposition as deeply unpatriotic...even treasonous.
Remember this famous excerpt from Ron Suskind's 2004 article in which he relates a conversation he had with an unnamed individual who was later identified as Karl Rove?
posted by perspicio at 9:04 PM on December 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
My biggest fear is that Trump would use his international criminal connections to bring about a major attack on at least one US city, something more heinous than 9/11. Say, a dirty bomb in San Francisco. In so doing, he would remove a major bastion of opposition as well as, possibly, one of his most formidable political opponents. And with plausible deniability that he was involved in some way, his use of martial law to leap to the "defense" of the coastal liberals would also effectively disrupt the rest of the opposition as deeply unpatriotic...even treasonous.
Remember this famous excerpt from Ron Suskind's 2004 article in which he relates a conversation he had with an unnamed individual who was later identified as Karl Rove?
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."This dynamic - which effectively describes exploitation of the OODA loop - also describes what the Trump campaign has done all along, and what it continues to do. And I think we need to stop kneejerking around in reactive mode and assert our own ability to shape events. Stop traffic. Sut down business as usual. Overflow the jails. (Occupy + BLM) x 10. Before the inauguration. Furnish the remaining functional apparatus of the establishment a real reason to fear the people more than Trump.
posted by perspicio at 9:04 PM on December 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
(Gotanda: I do believe Joe in Australia was engaging in some dry sarcasm.)
posted by perspicio at 9:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by perspicio at 9:06 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I guessctaking 2018 elections as a given should have been the tip off.
posted by Artw at 9:29 PM on December 26, 2016
posted by Artw at 9:29 PM on December 26, 2016
Etrigan: It's because despite the "legal" (or "technical" or however you want to frame it) protocol being that the President of the United States can, all by his lonesome, order a nuclear strike for any reason down to and including none whatsoever, that's not really how everyone involved understands it.
You're going to need to show me a source that proves Trump understands this or even cares.
Yes, Trump could absolutely change it. And it's absolutely possible that Secretary Mattis will go along with dropping one on Tehran just because. But there are things that are far more likely to happen that should occupy more of our worrying time and effort.
We've elected a man who many consider to have a malignant personality disorder, who most likely doesn't experience empathy the way you and I experience empathy, who openly talked about being willing to using nukes during debates, who surrounds himself with advisors who view all Muslims as a threat and talk about the Japanese-American internment camps as a good blueprint, and who views the ideas of norms and rules as things for lesser people, challenges to be broken. Well, our nuclear launch system is made of norms, not laws, built for immediacy in an emergency instead of thoughtful debate, and we've just put Donald Trump at the very top of the decision chain with the ability to override the orders of everyone below him because he's the Supreme Commander of the entire US military.
Yes, I'm worried. All it takes is the right hardliners to get in his ear. "The Iranians are close to getting the bomb! Their facility is hardened against traditional bunker busters! And an invasion would kill too many American soldiers, Mr. President. No, a tactical nuke is the only way. It's humane when you think about it. Besides, it's a matter of self-preservation, us vs. them." Yeah, I hope Mattis is as honorable as Corb says, because Trump's impatience, erratic behavior under pressure, need to dominate at all costs, and his seeming lack of empathy for any other human being terrifies me.
posted by bluecore at 9:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [30 favorites]
You're going to need to show me a source that proves Trump understands this or even cares.
Yes, Trump could absolutely change it. And it's absolutely possible that Secretary Mattis will go along with dropping one on Tehran just because. But there are things that are far more likely to happen that should occupy more of our worrying time and effort.
We've elected a man who many consider to have a malignant personality disorder, who most likely doesn't experience empathy the way you and I experience empathy, who openly talked about being willing to using nukes during debates, who surrounds himself with advisors who view all Muslims as a threat and talk about the Japanese-American internment camps as a good blueprint, and who views the ideas of norms and rules as things for lesser people, challenges to be broken. Well, our nuclear launch system is made of norms, not laws, built for immediacy in an emergency instead of thoughtful debate, and we've just put Donald Trump at the very top of the decision chain with the ability to override the orders of everyone below him because he's the Supreme Commander of the entire US military.
Yes, I'm worried. All it takes is the right hardliners to get in his ear. "The Iranians are close to getting the bomb! Their facility is hardened against traditional bunker busters! And an invasion would kill too many American soldiers, Mr. President. No, a tactical nuke is the only way. It's humane when you think about it. Besides, it's a matter of self-preservation, us vs. them." Yeah, I hope Mattis is as honorable as Corb says, because Trump's impatience, erratic behavior under pressure, need to dominate at all costs, and his seeming lack of empathy for any other human being terrifies me.
posted by bluecore at 9:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [30 favorites]
>
Was there any mainstream network news circa Fox's inception that actually leant left? CNN used to be 'centrist' and 'fact based.'
The inability of the American public (and every other public; but this is a recent high-profile case-in-point) to discern reality from fiction is insanely frightening.
posted by porpoise at 9:41 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out.Not super buying into that these guys are super-dooper smart or something, but rather just exploiting the populace education degradation since the 70s, the rise of Fox News (Faux News), and now cesspits like infowars and breitbart. CNN lost any respect I had for them around the time that Fox News started grabbing ground and they were trying to play catch-up or something.
Was there any mainstream network news circa Fox's inception that actually leant left? CNN used to be 'centrist' and 'fact based.'
The inability of the American public (and every other public; but this is a recent high-profile case-in-point) to discern reality from fiction is insanely frightening.
posted by porpoise at 9:41 PM on December 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I do believe Joe in Australia was engaging in some dry sarcasm.
Sorry. It's self-excoriation in a way, because I used that argument back in 2009 or so (as I recall) to justify why Obama hadn't yet closed down Guantanamo. But in the USA there are always elections on the horizon, and at some point you have to decide where your values really are. It's easy to be wise after the event, but in retrospect every bit of compromise and temporising just strengthened the hand of the Republican party, and made them less willing to compromise.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:50 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sorry. It's self-excoriation in a way, because I used that argument back in 2009 or so (as I recall) to justify why Obama hadn't yet closed down Guantanamo. But in the USA there are always elections on the horizon, and at some point you have to decide where your values really are. It's easy to be wise after the event, but in retrospect every bit of compromise and temporising just strengthened the hand of the Republican party, and made them less willing to compromise.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:50 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not super buying into that these guys are super-dooper smart or something,
They weren't. Rove was describing exactly the philosophy which resulted in 9/11, the Iraq invasion, Abu Ghraib, the housing crisis, the global financial crisis, and the repurposing of the Ba'athist intelligence apparatus to what became ISIS. It let the Republicans stay one-up on their political opponents for a while, but it caused an enormous amount of long term damage.
posted by Coventry at 10:08 PM on December 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
They weren't. Rove was describing exactly the philosophy which resulted in 9/11, the Iraq invasion, Abu Ghraib, the housing crisis, the global financial crisis, and the repurposing of the Ba'athist intelligence apparatus to what became ISIS. It let the Republicans stay one-up on their political opponents for a while, but it caused an enormous amount of long term damage.
posted by Coventry at 10:08 PM on December 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
...there are things [other than Trump using nukes] that are far more likely to happen that should occupy more of our worrying time and effort.
Among my relatives who supported Trump, before the election, bringing up his statements involving nuclear weapons made them the most hesitant. So when the suggestion that it's impossible comes up I think it's worth debunking.
posted by XMLicious at 10:24 PM on December 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Coventry, "an enormous amount of long term damage", yes, but damage to a lot of things either not so relevant to the Republican Party, or actually supporting its ascent to its current status of dominating almost 3/4 of America's state legislatures, both houses of Congress and the White House. Yes, they are ruling a damaged nation in a damaged world, but they are still ruling.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:30 PM on December 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
This dynamic - which effectively describes exploitation of the OODA loop - also describes what the Trump campaign has done all along, and what it continues to do. And I think we need to stop kneejerking around in reactive mode and assert our own ability to shape events. Stop traffic. Sut down business as usual. Overflow the jails. (Occupy + BLM) x 10. Before the inauguration. Furnish the remaining functional apparatus of the establishment a real reason to fear the people more than Trump.
Stopping traffic or shutting down business as usual for anyone that most Americans can identify with is not going to do a thing except give people a target for the increasing amount of free-floating ill-considered resentment going around that fuels Trumpers and BothSidsers.
You want to get inside an OODA loop, you have to jump what the opposition is expecting. Protests are expected. They'd have to be *huge* to have any effect.
Occupy-sized crowds scheduling in-person appointments with staff congressional offices with coherent talking points about what institution-preserving actions they expect (and weekly follow up)? Probably not expected.
Quietly finding ways to reach and connect members of the military who are not insane, sophisticated enough to understand the good in the American system we've had and dedicated to preserving it, willing to resist at the right moment, and thoughtful enough to understand when that might be? Probably not expected. And to be clear, I'm not recommending an insurgency just because Trump is inaugurated, but the thing about the critical moment to know when mass refusal is the right answer is that when it comes, you have to know who agrees with you about what "a bridge too far" is and that they will have your back if it comes down to it and the people who are in that boat need to find each other pronto (and Etrigan and corb and others with experience inside military organizations and culture, when it comes to your ideas about this, I'm all ears).
Insert your own ideas about what people haven't done before.
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Stopping traffic or shutting down business as usual for anyone that most Americans can identify with is not going to do a thing except give people a target for the increasing amount of free-floating ill-considered resentment going around that fuels Trumpers and BothSidsers.
You want to get inside an OODA loop, you have to jump what the opposition is expecting. Protests are expected. They'd have to be *huge* to have any effect.
Occupy-sized crowds scheduling in-person appointments with staff congressional offices with coherent talking points about what institution-preserving actions they expect (and weekly follow up)? Probably not expected.
Quietly finding ways to reach and connect members of the military who are not insane, sophisticated enough to understand the good in the American system we've had and dedicated to preserving it, willing to resist at the right moment, and thoughtful enough to understand when that might be? Probably not expected. And to be clear, I'm not recommending an insurgency just because Trump is inaugurated, but the thing about the critical moment to know when mass refusal is the right answer is that when it comes, you have to know who agrees with you about what "a bridge too far" is and that they will have your back if it comes down to it and the people who are in that boat need to find each other pronto (and Etrigan and corb and others with experience inside military organizations and culture, when it comes to your ideas about this, I'm all ears).
Insert your own ideas about what people haven't done before.
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Artw: the impending invasion of Europe
You seem to know something that we don't. Can you shoot me a text when they're almost here, whoever they are, so I can put the kettle on?
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:52 AM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
You seem to know something that we don't. Can you shoot me a text when they're almost here, whoever they are, so I can put the kettle on?
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:52 AM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
A blogger in Russia has just been sentenced to 2.5 years in prison for criticizing Russian air strikes in Syria.
The guy running the canteen at Cumhuriyet, the only opposition paper left in Turkey, has been arrested after a building security guard reported to the police that he'd said he'd refuse to serve Erdoğan tea.
This is not normal.
posted by progosk at 1:06 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
re: trump photo
politico subtitle: "He is shining a light on how much of the American political system is encoded in custom and how little is based in the law."
yep. my take: capitalism is not prescribed by the constitution
posted by j_curiouser at 1:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
politico subtitle: "He is shining a light on how much of the American political system is encoded in custom and how little is based in the law."
yep. my take: capitalism is not prescribed by the constitution
posted by j_curiouser at 1:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wonder if it's ever occured to him that Christmas spending is over a trillion dollars because people know in their bones this will be the last Christmas.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
'Alt-right' groups will 'revolt' if Trump shuns white supremacy, leaders say
Some tidbits:
Activists who recently gave Nazi salutes and shouted “hail Trump” at a gathering in Washington will revolt when the new US president fails to meet their expectations, the leaders told the Guardian.
...Jared Taylor, a white supremacist who runs the self-termed “race-realist” magazine American Renaissance, said the president-elect had already backpedalled on several pledges that had fired up the far-right. “At first he promised to send back every illegal immigrant. Now he is waffling on that.”
...In an email interview Peter Brimelow, founder of the webzine Vdare.com, which alleges Mexican plots to remake the US, said Trump’s failure to deliver “important bones” could trigger a backlash. “I think the right of the right is absolutely prepared to revolt. It’s what they do.”
...Taylor said some on the far-right fell, as did liberals, for what he termed media distortions. “Donald Trump was never a racial dissident of the sort that I am. He was never one of us. He’s an American nationalist. The left was wrong to think that he was dancing to the tune of people like myself.”
Taylor said the far right would need patience. “Racial nationalism has not triumphed in America. It will some day. But to think it has done so (already) is delusive.”
posted by futz at 4:19 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Some tidbits:
Activists who recently gave Nazi salutes and shouted “hail Trump” at a gathering in Washington will revolt when the new US president fails to meet their expectations, the leaders told the Guardian.
...Jared Taylor, a white supremacist who runs the self-termed “race-realist” magazine American Renaissance, said the president-elect had already backpedalled on several pledges that had fired up the far-right. “At first he promised to send back every illegal immigrant. Now he is waffling on that.”
...In an email interview Peter Brimelow, founder of the webzine Vdare.com, which alleges Mexican plots to remake the US, said Trump’s failure to deliver “important bones” could trigger a backlash. “I think the right of the right is absolutely prepared to revolt. It’s what they do.”
...Taylor said some on the far-right fell, as did liberals, for what he termed media distortions. “Donald Trump was never a racial dissident of the sort that I am. He was never one of us. He’s an American nationalist. The left was wrong to think that he was dancing to the tune of people like myself.”
Taylor said the far right would need patience. “Racial nationalism has not triumphed in America. It will some day. But to think it has done so (already) is delusive.”
posted by futz at 4:19 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure that makes much of a difference. They're already quite revolting.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:59 AM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:59 AM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
During breakfast this morning the TV ran an Emergency Alert System drill but when I heard the tone I swear to god my first thought was "What the fuck did Trump tweet now?"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:05 AM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:05 AM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
Netanyahu is reportedly concerned that Obama is planning another UN resolution that would be even worse for Israel, so he's pulling out all the stops.
Or possibly, he's on a tear because he's going to be under investigation for bribery and fraud. If those reports are true, then he would be simply copying Trump's playbook of chutzpah-based misdirection in the face of scandal/legal problems.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:32 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Or possibly, he's on a tear because he's going to be under investigation for bribery and fraud. If those reports are true, then he would be simply copying Trump's playbook of chutzpah-based misdirection in the face of scandal/legal problems.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:32 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The biggest US police union is pressing Amazon to follow Walmart and remove from third-party sale a shirt that seeks profit in relation to the Black Lives Matter protest movement.
The issue was relevant, he said, because of the “amount of violence demonstrated at Black Lives Matter marches and the fact that eight police officers had been assassinated while protecting Black Lives Matter protests”.
Canterbury said he was referring to officers who were shot in separate incidents in Dallas and Baton Rouge last summer.
The gunmen in those shootings were not affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement. In Dallas, a gunman shot dead five officers during an anti-violence protest. In Baton Rouge, three officers were killed in an ambush.
Canterbury told the Guardian he believed nonetheless that anti-police rhetoric in the name of the protest group “had inspired people of feeble minds to strike out at police officers”.
“It happened as a result of the rhetoric of different BLM groups,” he said.
Well, there ya go, only a couple weeks or so until BLM is labeled a terrorist organization, instead of the Police Union labeled a hate group which seems the more accurate at the moment, and I say that as someone who has frequently interacted with the police with positive results.
2016 may go down as one of the worst years for drunk-driving deaths
In 2015, 10,265 people died in alcohol-impaired crashes, an increase of nearly 300 from the year before. 2016 could be even deadlier.
“If you’re drinking, don’t drive,” advises National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s Mark Rosekind. “We’re seeing these increases that we have not seen in 50 years. It’s tragic.”
Just another example of there being something seriously wrong in the US right now. That people chose Trump as a way to signal their displeasure is one thing, but where Trump will take it from here is another. I can't help but imagine things are going to get much worse since it seems apparent people aren't even sure what it is that they're reacting against, they're just feeling anger and are going to take that anger out on anyone who isn't "enough" like them, and quite likely take themselves down along with those "others".
posted by gusottertrout at 5:39 AM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
The issue was relevant, he said, because of the “amount of violence demonstrated at Black Lives Matter marches and the fact that eight police officers had been assassinated while protecting Black Lives Matter protests”.
Canterbury said he was referring to officers who were shot in separate incidents in Dallas and Baton Rouge last summer.
The gunmen in those shootings were not affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement. In Dallas, a gunman shot dead five officers during an anti-violence protest. In Baton Rouge, three officers were killed in an ambush.
Canterbury told the Guardian he believed nonetheless that anti-police rhetoric in the name of the protest group “had inspired people of feeble minds to strike out at police officers”.
“It happened as a result of the rhetoric of different BLM groups,” he said.
Well, there ya go, only a couple weeks or so until BLM is labeled a terrorist organization, instead of the Police Union labeled a hate group which seems the more accurate at the moment, and I say that as someone who has frequently interacted with the police with positive results.
2016 may go down as one of the worst years for drunk-driving deaths
In 2015, 10,265 people died in alcohol-impaired crashes, an increase of nearly 300 from the year before. 2016 could be even deadlier.
“If you’re drinking, don’t drive,” advises National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s Mark Rosekind. “We’re seeing these increases that we have not seen in 50 years. It’s tragic.”
Just another example of there being something seriously wrong in the US right now. That people chose Trump as a way to signal their displeasure is one thing, but where Trump will take it from here is another. I can't help but imagine things are going to get much worse since it seems apparent people aren't even sure what it is that they're reacting against, they're just feeling anger and are going to take that anger out on anyone who isn't "enough" like them, and quite likely take themselves down along with those "others".
posted by gusottertrout at 5:39 AM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
There's the old concept that whatever the USA does, Britain will snobbily look down on it, declare "How vulgar!" to the world in some kind of misguided notion that Britain holds the highest standards - but then (in the typically British hypocritical manner) quietly copy it or integrate it into national culture. And lo, we have the right-wing government of the UK starting to introduce pilots and various measures to check voters at the polling station, despite the lack of evidence of voter fraud and the chances of hitting those most marginalised (who by a staggering coincidence are least likely to vote for a right-wing government).
The argument that "everyone has the necessary ID" is total bullshit, an utter lie. From experience working in a foodbank there are many, not a few but many, who live on the edges and don't have and can't get a permanent address, or a bank account. They will be either dissuaded from voting (the fear, shame or embarrassment of being told at the polling station that they can't vote), or will try and not be able to. Voter suppression, British style.
posted by Wordshore at 5:42 AM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
The argument that "everyone has the necessary ID" is total bullshit, an utter lie. From experience working in a foodbank there are many, not a few but many, who live on the edges and don't have and can't get a permanent address, or a bank account. They will be either dissuaded from voting (the fear, shame or embarrassment of being told at the polling station that they can't vote), or will try and not be able to. Voter suppression, British style.
posted by Wordshore at 5:42 AM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
You want to get inside an OODA loop, you have to jump what the opposition is expecting. Protests are expected. They'd have to be *huge* to have any effect.
wildblueyonder, I appreciate your thoughts on this. And I think brainstorming new ways of taking action is a good idea. One passing thought I've had was targeting one specific senator over a given time period for all purposes for which calling one's senator is the call to action, in order to shut down business as usual at their offices. I haven't evaluated the idea's merits, but that's brainstorming.
But I do want to say that it's more important to keep Trump from disrupting our OODA loop than it is to get inside anybody else's. Collective action is a simple instrument, and it works, since the instrument is also the object of governance. Let's not overcomplicate this. Go to core principles.
posted by perspicio at 5:47 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
wildblueyonder, I appreciate your thoughts on this. And I think brainstorming new ways of taking action is a good idea. One passing thought I've had was targeting one specific senator over a given time period for all purposes for which calling one's senator is the call to action, in order to shut down business as usual at their offices. I haven't evaluated the idea's merits, but that's brainstorming.
But I do want to say that it's more important to keep Trump from disrupting our OODA loop than it is to get inside anybody else's. Collective action is a simple instrument, and it works, since the instrument is also the object of governance. Let's not overcomplicate this. Go to core principles.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and HappinessDemonstrating that consent has been withdrawn is the most effective tool in the box.
posted by perspicio at 5:47 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Donald Trump will continue to tweet as president, according to incoming White House press secretary Sean Spicer, who predicted that Trump’s engagement with supporters via social media will be “a really exciting part of the job.”
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:05 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:05 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
When the Navy guys say things are exciting, the Army and Marines know to get behind something heavy.
posted by Etrigan at 6:13 AM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 6:13 AM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
Donald Trump will continue to tweet as president, according to incoming White House press secretary Sean Spicer, who predicted that Trump’s engagement with supporters via social media will be “a really exciting part of the job.”
Not surprising. He's addicted to it. He won't be able to function without his 'fix'.
posted by Jalliah at 6:14 AM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
M'yeah, it's the way that "engagement" goes down with Trump's non-supporters—basically the entire world minus 25% of the US population—that's going to be... not so exciting.
posted by Rykey at 6:16 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Rykey at 6:16 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not surprising. He's addicted to it. He won't be able to function without his 'fix'.
And to be fair to Trump, tweeting is pretty much the only thing he brought to the job so far, so keeping it does seem kinda necessary for him to live up to his supporters expectations.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:17 AM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
And to be fair to Trump, tweeting is pretty much the only thing he brought to the job so far, so keeping it does seem kinda necessary for him to live up to his supporters expectations.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:17 AM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Lord help the rest of us though.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:17 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 6:17 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's the old concept that whatever the USA does, Britain will snobbily look down on it, declare "How vulgar!" to the world in some kind of misguided notion that Britain holds the highest standards - but then (in the typically British hypocritical manner) quietly copy it or integrate it into national culture. And lo, we have the right-wing government of the UK starting to introduce pilots and various measures to check voters at the polling station, despite the lack of evidence of voter fraud and the chances of hitting those most marginalised (who by a staggering coincidence are least likely to vote for a right-wing government).
That article does say
so perhaps the Irish can be blamed this time.Northern Ireland already requires voters to show ID before casting their vote.
posted by XMLicious at 6:19 AM on December 27, 2016
2016 may go down as one of the worst years for drunk-driving deaths
In Wisconsin, traffic deaths have went up ever since the R-led state government raised the speed limit to 70.
posted by drezdn at 6:19 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
In Wisconsin, traffic deaths have went up ever since the R-led state government raised the speed limit to 70.
posted by drezdn at 6:19 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can't help but wonder how long until "engagement with supporters" means "calls to violence that don't quite break incitement laws." Ah, who am I kidding: we've already been there a while, haven't we?
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
“a really exciting part of the job.”
This reminds me of that OKCupid question that asks 'under a certain light, would nuclear war be exciting?' He seems like the kind of guy who looks at that and goes 'what do you mean, certain light?'
posted by Neronomius at 6:23 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
This reminds me of that OKCupid question that asks 'under a certain light, would nuclear war be exciting?' He seems like the kind of guy who looks at that and goes 'what do you mean, certain light?'
posted by Neronomius at 6:23 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
2016 may go down as one of the worst years for drunk-driving deaths
In Wisconsin, traffic deaths have went up ever since the R-led state government raised the speed limit to 70.
I won't even bother telling you what happened after Michigan repealed motorcycle helmet laws in the early years of the Tea Party insurgency.
posted by Etrigan at 6:24 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
In Wisconsin, traffic deaths have went up ever since the R-led state government raised the speed limit to 70.
I won't even bother telling you what happened after Michigan repealed motorcycle helmet laws in the early years of the Tea Party insurgency.
posted by Etrigan at 6:24 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
A president engaging in comment about virtually any day to day issue or news story will be unprecedented and, eventually I hope, lead to an unpresidented response. Trump is going to be placing his office into every single controversial event and plenty of not so controversial before he tweeted events too. It'll be like the worst kind of Facebook feed, but coming straight from the Oval Office. I don't think we really have any good idea of how that will play out, I mean, we can guess, but I'm not sure even with that we can see how this will play out even just in domestic terms.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I won't even bother telling you what happened after Michigan repealed motorcycle helmet laws in the early years of the Tea Party insurgency.
Let me guess. "No gubermint is going to take away mah freedom! My head will be free! I'm a big awesome man/woman" *vroom, vroom*......***squish***
posted by Jalliah at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Let me guess. "No gubermint is going to take away mah freedom! My head will be free! I'm a big awesome man/woman" *vroom, vroom*......***squish***
posted by Jalliah at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I won't even bother telling you what happened after Michigan repealed motorcycle helmet laws in the early years of the Tea Party insurgency.
Let me guess. "No gubermint is going to take away mah freedom! My head will be free! I'm a big awesome man/woman" *vroom, vroom*......***squish***
I remember when this happened in Florida. We don't need no stinkin' helmets, they said! People actually argued that they were safer without helmets. I can only assume that the increased number of head injuries is the primary cause of Trump's FL victory.
posted by dis_integration at 6:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Let me guess. "No gubermint is going to take away mah freedom! My head will be free! I'm a big awesome man/woman" *vroom, vroom*......***squish***
I remember when this happened in Florida. We don't need no stinkin' helmets, they said! People actually argued that they were safer without helmets. I can only assume that the increased number of head injuries is the primary cause of Trump's FL victory.
posted by dis_integration at 6:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
This reminds me of that OKCupid question that asks 'under a certain light, would nuclear war be exciting?' He seems like the kind of guy who looks at that and goes 'what do you mean, certain light?'
I think it turns on the definition of exciting. I mean, the flash and the double blast certainly wouldn't exactly be tedious as an experience.
posted by jaduncan at 6:49 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it turns on the definition of exciting. I mean, the flash and the double blast certainly wouldn't exactly be tedious as an experience.
posted by jaduncan at 6:49 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, theoretically there could be less crashes but more fatalities without helmets if those who made the claim were right, which I suspect, of course, they weren't, but still...
posted by gusottertrout at 6:49 AM on December 27, 2016
posted by gusottertrout at 6:49 AM on December 27, 2016
Quietly finding ways to reach and connect members of the military who are not insane...
Well, somebody's going to need a damned good understanding of the concept of mutiny and how the parts of the UCMJ dealing with it have been interpreted. And with duties regarding illegal orders. People can get shitcanned, lose their clearance or end up in the brig just for talking about it if they aren't careful about what they say or listen to.
posted by ridgerunner at 6:55 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, somebody's going to need a damned good understanding of the concept of mutiny and how the parts of the UCMJ dealing with it have been interpreted. And with duties regarding illegal orders. People can get shitcanned, lose their clearance or end up in the brig just for talking about it if they aren't careful about what they say or listen to.
posted by ridgerunner at 6:55 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
WaPo: A professor called Trump’s election an ‘act of terrorism.’ Then she became the victim of terror. : Cox, a psychology professor who teaches a class on human sexuality, referred to Vice President-elect Mike Pence as “one of the most anti-gay humans in the country.” She also told her students that the nation is as divided now as it was “in Civil War times.”
She noted that she was “relieved that we live in California.”
Cox’s comments were recorded by a conservative student in her class who found her statements offensive and decided to share the video with the Orange Coast College Republicans, according to Joshua Recalde-Martinez, a political science major and president of the campus Republican group.
The video went viral, and within days, the beloved professor — who is largely unknown beyond the campus where she has taught for more than two decades — was under fierce attack. Her inbox and voice mail were filled with hundreds of threatening messages that referred to her as “libtard,” “Marxist,” “nutcase,” “vile leftist filth” and a “satanic cult member.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:05 AM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
She noted that she was “relieved that we live in California.”
Cox’s comments were recorded by a conservative student in her class who found her statements offensive and decided to share the video with the Orange Coast College Republicans, according to Joshua Recalde-Martinez, a political science major and president of the campus Republican group.
The video went viral, and within days, the beloved professor — who is largely unknown beyond the campus where she has taught for more than two decades — was under fierce attack. Her inbox and voice mail were filled with hundreds of threatening messages that referred to her as “libtard,” “Marxist,” “nutcase,” “vile leftist filth” and a “satanic cult member.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:05 AM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think this Vox article is worth sharing...
Trump’s popularity matters a great deal. Congress has considerable constitutional authority to limit Trump’s damage — but only if its members choose to use that power. If Trump is popular, most Republicans and even some Democrats in Congress will fear challenging him, worried that even a single tweet attack could hurt their reelection prospects. If Trump’s popularity sinks, however, more congressional Republicans will suddenly find the courage to challenge him.posted by OnceUponATime at 7:20 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
This why the good PR Trump got from the Carrier stunt should give serious heartburn to anybody concerned about the existential damage Trump could do to our democracy. If Carrier is a preview of what’s to come, Trump could turn out to be very popular.
Nah. Obama is a popular president and Congress has the approval rating of week-old flounder, yet the GOP keeps on keepin' on. The vast majority of legislators only care about their popularity rating with primary voters.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:27 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:27 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
The vast majority of legislators only care about their popularity rating with primary voters.
This. They're not in danger of losing their seats. They're all gerrymandered to require an unheard of level of extreme Democratic swing to unseat them. They just don't want to be Cantored.
posted by Talez at 7:30 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
This. They're not in danger of losing their seats. They're all gerrymandered to require an unheard of level of extreme Democratic swing to unseat them. They just don't want to be Cantored.
posted by Talez at 7:30 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Trump seems to be fairly adept - whether through incompetence or malfeasance - at distracting us from evil bullshit via trivial bullshit.
What world be useful is of we had done sort of mechanism to alert people "don't look at that tweet - look at this nomination/legislation/action" to counteract his bread and circus tweets. Like maybe a group that continuously focuses on what Congress is currently doing instead of on what blather is blathering out of the blatherer in chief (BOTUS).
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:34 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
What world be useful is of we had done sort of mechanism to alert people "don't look at that tweet - look at this nomination/legislation/action" to counteract his bread and circus tweets. Like maybe a group that continuously focuses on what Congress is currently doing instead of on what blather is blathering out of the blatherer in chief (BOTUS).
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:34 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Defense Minister @AvigdorLiberman: This is the time to tell French Jews: France is not your country or your land and it's time to leave.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:37 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:37 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I wanted to get elected in a red district I'd do what Republicans are starting to do in California, just stick a D in front of your name instead. You peel away some Democrats. You pick up all the remaining Republicans. You win the election.
Seriously. I'm starting to think Democrats need to register as Republicans and fight hard in primaries there. When they get accused of not voting with Republicans come back with "I am not beholden to the establishment, I will vote as is best for my district". When they question the lack of conservative values, call them "common sense measures for progress".
Trump has shown that Democrats have no monopoly on the working man. Rhetoric works well enough on these idiots. Just get them pissed off and say you'll fix it. If you don't blame someone else.
posted by Talez at 7:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [28 favorites]
Seriously. I'm starting to think Democrats need to register as Republicans and fight hard in primaries there. When they get accused of not voting with Republicans come back with "I am not beholden to the establishment, I will vote as is best for my district". When they question the lack of conservative values, call them "common sense measures for progress".
Trump has shown that Democrats have no monopoly on the working man. Rhetoric works well enough on these idiots. Just get them pissed off and say you'll fix it. If you don't blame someone else.
posted by Talez at 7:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [28 favorites]
@mattyglesias:
Bibi going all-in on the US political faction that includes the neo-Nazis rather than the one Jews vote for sums it all up nicely.
posted by chris24 at 7:39 AM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
Bibi going all-in on the US political faction that includes the neo-Nazis rather than the one Jews vote for sums it all up nicely.
posted by chris24 at 7:39 AM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
Defense Minister @AvigdorLiberman: This is the time to tell French Jews: France is not your country or your land and it's time to leave.
I love how all of the replies assume it's the French defense minister saying that when it's actually the Israeli one. The French minister is Jean-Yves Le Drian.
posted by Talez at 7:40 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I love how all of the replies assume it's the French defense minister saying that when it's actually the Israeli one. The French minister is Jean-Yves Le Drian.
posted by Talez at 7:40 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump taps Bossert for counterterrorism post: statement
posted by futz at 7:48 AM on December 27, 2016
posted by futz at 7:48 AM on December 27, 2016
Talez, I've thought something similar. Example, no Dem is likely to get elected out where I am, but a liberal 'republican' might, especially given the sheer volume of teahadists running as independent. For years, I've thought, I can't run for office, there's video of me at burning man and rainbow gatherings doing heroic amounts of hallucinogenics, and juggling fire, and running around the country with jugglers and other malcontents. But, I mean, I've never crossed the consent line, I've never robbed or cheated a contractor or anyone who has ever reported to me, and hell most voters are so uninformed my glorious trip through the 80s and 90s mighty just go unnoticed.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:50 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:50 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
For years, I've thought, I can't run for office, there's video of me at burning man and rainbow gatherings doing heroic amounts of hallucinogenics, and juggling fire, and running around the country with jugglers and other malcontents
From my time running for delegate, let me tell you it is literally shocking how few Republicans Google someone before voting for them.
posted by corb at 7:57 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
From my time running for delegate, let me tell you it is literally shocking how few Republicans Google someone before voting for them.
posted by corb at 7:57 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
how few Republicans Google someone before voting for them.
But.. but... Ron Paul?!
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:59 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
But.. but... Ron Paul?!
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:59 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
The video went viral, and within days, the beloved professor — who is largely unknown beyond the campus where she has taught for more than two decades — was under fierce attack.
I'd like to see more of these kinds of stories framed not as "beloved professor under attack" but as "politically correct punks can't handle the truth."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:13 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'd like to see more of these kinds of stories framed not as "beloved professor under attack" but as "politically correct punks can't handle the truth."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:13 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
I am shocked and disappointed that no one has asked the incoming Trump administration where their email server will be stored.
Ok, not that shocked, but STILL.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ok, not that shocked, but STILL.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
"[…] out of the blatherer in chief (BOTUS)."
or BLOTUS.
posted by iamkimiam at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
or BLOTUS.
posted by iamkimiam at 8:14 AM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Her inbox and voice mail were filled with hundreds of threatening messages that referred to her as “libtard,” “Marxist,” “nutcase,” “vile leftist filth” and a “satanic cult member.”
"Satanic cult member"? The rest at least make some sort of sense, but that last one sounds more like a copy editor having a bit of fun. Which is just fine in this case!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:16 AM on December 27, 2016
"Satanic cult member"? The rest at least make some sort of sense, but that last one sounds more like a copy editor having a bit of fun. Which is just fine in this case!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:16 AM on December 27, 2016
"Satanic cult member"? The rest at least make some sort of sense, but that last one sounds more like a copy editor having a bit of fun. Which is just fine in this case!
Pizzagate, Spirit Cooking. The Satanic Panic has roared back into the mainstream in the last 2 months.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Pizzagate, Spirit Cooking. The Satanic Panic has roared back into the mainstream in the last 2 months.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
The Satanic Panic has roared back into the mainstream in the last 2 months.
Well, you can't go from zero to blood libel overnight.
posted by contraption at 8:26 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Well, you can't go from zero to blood libel overnight.
posted by contraption at 8:26 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
I wonder who Trumpski has in mind for Witchfinder General?
posted by octobersurprise at 8:26 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 8:26 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
People can get shitcanned, lose their clearance or end up in the brig just for talking about it if they aren't careful about what they say or listen to.
I'm guessing there are a lot of JAG officers being sported at the club or on the links for some on-the-dl impressions.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:27 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing there are a lot of JAG officers being sported at the club or on the links for some on-the-dl impressions.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:27 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wonder who Trumpski has in mind for Witchfinder General?
The Witch-king of Angmar
posted by drezdn at 8:27 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Doesn't Ted Cruz leap to mind for any zealous persecution post like WF General? He's pretty effing zealous.
posted by puddledork at 8:32 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by puddledork at 8:32 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Satanic Panic has roared back into the mainstream in the last 2 months.
you youngsters who think this is a joke, or hyperbolic rhetoric, look into the McMartin Preschool Trials. this mass delusion is possible, realistic, and repeatable. lives were ruined. over. nothing.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:37 AM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
you youngsters who think this is a joke, or hyperbolic rhetoric, look into the McMartin Preschool Trials. this mass delusion is possible, realistic, and repeatable. lives were ruined. over. nothing.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:37 AM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
Trump Photo is Best Photo
That picture isn't very flattering.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:43 AM on December 27, 2016
As a European who's sat and watched the idea of Trump ever getting elected being pooh-poohed, and members of Trump's own party denounce him, and at every stage people pinning their hopes on the next pipe-dream of stopping him while others explain that stopping him isn't allowed and would never happen if it were,
And having listened to Trump saying he doesn't understand why America doesn't use its nuclear weapons, and watching him provoke other nations and emphasize what a threat he poses, and knowing for all these months that Trump has access to and sole authority to trigger the nuclear codes, and that nobody is allowed to say no to him,
And knowing he is 70 years old now, almost certainly has no interest in the state of the world after his death, and most likely does not care about anyone other than himself, so really has no incentive not to launch a nuclear attack even if he understood what the consequences would be, which he probably doesn't,
I think it's fairly likely this is the last Christmas any of us will ever see. American voters, American government had and have no power to avert the disaster at any point. And if they have it, they won't use it because (like Trump's 5-and-under-yr-old grandchildren, according to those same American voters) they benefit from the system (okay, #notallamericans).
Probably the last words I will ever read will be in some continuation of this thread, and those words will be ever-weakening arguments that the worst probably won't happen and there's some theoretical hope that someone might stop him.
Well, nothing left to do but watch it happen, I guess. It has been a privilege to play for you all tonight.
posted by tel3path at 8:47 AM on December 27, 2016 [16 favorites]
And having listened to Trump saying he doesn't understand why America doesn't use its nuclear weapons, and watching him provoke other nations and emphasize what a threat he poses, and knowing for all these months that Trump has access to and sole authority to trigger the nuclear codes, and that nobody is allowed to say no to him,
And knowing he is 70 years old now, almost certainly has no interest in the state of the world after his death, and most likely does not care about anyone other than himself, so really has no incentive not to launch a nuclear attack even if he understood what the consequences would be, which he probably doesn't,
I think it's fairly likely this is the last Christmas any of us will ever see. American voters, American government had and have no power to avert the disaster at any point. And if they have it, they won't use it because (like Trump's 5-and-under-yr-old grandchildren, according to those same American voters) they benefit from the system (okay, #notallamericans).
Probably the last words I will ever read will be in some continuation of this thread, and those words will be ever-weakening arguments that the worst probably won't happen and there's some theoretical hope that someone might stop him.
Well, nothing left to do but watch it happen, I guess. It has been a privilege to play for you all tonight.
posted by tel3path at 8:47 AM on December 27, 2016 [16 favorites]
Yeah, I'm going to nth here that claims of satanism are not surprising, and I don't think that was made up by a copy editor. People took that shit really seriously in the '80s -- like, would-willingly-repeat-the-Salem-Witch-Trials seriously.
I have zero doubt that there's a lot of Trump supporters who believe that liberals are literally in league with the devil.
posted by tocts at 8:49 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have zero doubt that there's a lot of Trump supporters who believe that liberals are literally in league with the devil.
posted by tocts at 8:49 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
kirkaracha: That picture isn't very flattering.
Perfect for some noseflags though.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:57 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Perfect for some noseflags though.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:57 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
The chance of Trump causing Nuclear war is not nil but it's also no higher than Obamas. Currently, Trump is in the "freak everyone out!" phase of his negotiating strategy. That is, sow chaos then wade in and take what you want. His nuclear war threats are part of that.
He'll get slapped pretty hard in the wrist for it, and will pretend that he doesn't give a shit, but when push comes to shove it'll be like threatening to 'Lock her up!' it was fun during the election but now, who cares?
Of course, like most prognosticators, I've only been wrong when it comes to Trump... but this time I really think I'm on to something
posted by From Bklyn at 9:15 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
He'll get slapped pretty hard in the wrist for it, and will pretend that he doesn't give a shit, but when push comes to shove it'll be like threatening to 'Lock her up!' it was fun during the election but now, who cares?
Of course, like most prognosticators, I've only been wrong when it comes to Trump... but this time I really think I'm on to something
posted by From Bklyn at 9:15 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think Trump will blow us up because then there will be no one left to bilk or to worship him.
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:25 AM on December 27, 2016
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:25 AM on December 27, 2016
And knowing he is 70 years old now, almost certainly has no interest in the state of the world after his death, and most likely does not care about anyone other than himself
I think he does truly care for his family, or more specifically his children, and cares about the continuation of the family name as a brand. I think little would please him more to show up the upper class people that snubbed him than setting up dynastic power and I think that will keep him constrained. He's a showman and he likes riling up people that don't like him. He knows pushing buttons with things like nukes encourage his base while causing fear in liberals, so it's a win-win to him.
These threads do some good but they're also an echo chamber that whips up the fear in some of the readers beyond reason. Worry about voting rights suppression, because that's going to happen under his watch, rather than nuclear war.
posted by Candleman at 9:28 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think he does truly care for his family, or more specifically his children, and cares about the continuation of the family name as a brand. I think little would please him more to show up the upper class people that snubbed him than setting up dynastic power and I think that will keep him constrained. He's a showman and he likes riling up people that don't like him. He knows pushing buttons with things like nukes encourage his base while causing fear in liberals, so it's a win-win to him.
These threads do some good but they're also an echo chamber that whips up the fear in some of the readers beyond reason. Worry about voting rights suppression, because that's going to happen under his watch, rather than nuclear war.
posted by Candleman at 9:28 AM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't think Trump will blow us up because then there will be no one left to bilk or to worship him.
Donald is not capable of looking that far ahead. This would involve more complex thought as well as a level of self awareness that he keeps showing us he does not have.
posted by Jalliah at 9:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Donald is not capable of looking that far ahead. This would involve more complex thought as well as a level of self awareness that he keeps showing us he does not have.
posted by Jalliah at 9:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
lalex is right; Trump isn't tactically making use of Machiavelli (and Nixon)'s crazed "Madman Theory". He's actually a crazed madman.
posted by Justinian at 9:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 9:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
In the first place, Idi Amin used to order the assassination of someone he was mad at, then later on try to summon them to see him. It would have to be explained to him that that person couldn't come to see him, they were dead. He would pout in incomprehension, but never learn.
Besides, other countries have nukes too and he enjoys provoking them. The first strike doesn't have to come from him.
posted by tel3path at 9:30 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Besides, other countries have nukes too and he enjoys provoking them. The first strike doesn't have to come from him.
posted by tel3path at 9:30 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Economic;
Global Capitalism: Trump's Plans for Jobs, Taxes, Trade with Richard Wolff (YouTube 1hr31min).
This is an interesting talk on the real world impact of Trumps seeming erratically espoused "plans". And Wolff sees commonalities around a trade war and the idea that trade wars can become shooting wars. There is also some thought given to campaign messaging and how it played with voters. This also appears to be just one talk from an on going series with Wolff's main goal of arguing for the establishment of worker co-ops but I haven't listened to all the other videos yet.
Psychology;
Not wholly relevant but I just read "Ordinary Men; Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" (298page pdf (but there is about 70 pages of rebuttal and defense and another 30 of footnotes)) so it is a pretty quick read but can not be unread!
via Joe Rogan interview Jordan Peterson (YouTube 2hr50min) a psychology professor from University of Toronto (previously taught at Harvard) who mentioned it. He is embroiled in controversy with the university over gendered pronouns and has an seemingly irrational fear of the women studies department. His thoughts on a religious truth explained with Harry Potter references was neat. The guy is very passionate about trying to understand and explain human behaviours. I wasn't going to watch it because I disagree with some of his stances but found it more interesting than I imagined.
Satire;
The Orwell Lecture 2016: Ian Hislop (YouTube approx 1hrs) Ian Hislop works for the British magazine "Private Eye" and is quite funny. He ties both British and American political events to Orwell's ideas but mainly gives a lot of amusing observations.
A couple rays of hope;
Mitch McConnell did an interview with a local Kentucky TV station and said point blank he didn't expect Republicans to retain the Senate and had not the faintest hope they would get the Presidency. Neither of these wins seemed to bring McConnell much joy. In fact the interviewer had to ask him point blank if the presidential win wasn't a joyous event. McConnell said they might get a few things signed but was quick to remind the interviewer that he only had 52 votes and that most business requires 60, so basically his hands were tied. Trump would get his cabinet (because "the Democrats nuked the filibuster for appointments" ... lots of context left out naturally) but beyond that he basically wants the Democrats to block Trump for him.
The other was an interview with Cheney where he mentioned being rebuffed at one point for being "out of his lane". Again a reminder of power structures and guarded territory that is ripe for local conflict that can stymie larger ambitions.
posted by phoque at 9:31 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Global Capitalism: Trump's Plans for Jobs, Taxes, Trade with Richard Wolff (YouTube 1hr31min).
This is an interesting talk on the real world impact of Trumps seeming erratically espoused "plans". And Wolff sees commonalities around a trade war and the idea that trade wars can become shooting wars. There is also some thought given to campaign messaging and how it played with voters. This also appears to be just one talk from an on going series with Wolff's main goal of arguing for the establishment of worker co-ops but I haven't listened to all the other videos yet.
Psychology;
Not wholly relevant but I just read "Ordinary Men; Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" (298page pdf (but there is about 70 pages of rebuttal and defense and another 30 of footnotes)) so it is a pretty quick read but can not be unread!
via Joe Rogan interview Jordan Peterson (YouTube 2hr50min) a psychology professor from University of Toronto (previously taught at Harvard) who mentioned it. He is embroiled in controversy with the university over gendered pronouns and has an seemingly irrational fear of the women studies department. His thoughts on a religious truth explained with Harry Potter references was neat. The guy is very passionate about trying to understand and explain human behaviours. I wasn't going to watch it because I disagree with some of his stances but found it more interesting than I imagined.
Satire;
The Orwell Lecture 2016: Ian Hislop (YouTube approx 1hrs) Ian Hislop works for the British magazine "Private Eye" and is quite funny. He ties both British and American political events to Orwell's ideas but mainly gives a lot of amusing observations.
A couple rays of hope;
Mitch McConnell did an interview with a local Kentucky TV station and said point blank he didn't expect Republicans to retain the Senate and had not the faintest hope they would get the Presidency. Neither of these wins seemed to bring McConnell much joy. In fact the interviewer had to ask him point blank if the presidential win wasn't a joyous event. McConnell said they might get a few things signed but was quick to remind the interviewer that he only had 52 votes and that most business requires 60, so basically his hands were tied. Trump would get his cabinet (because "the Democrats nuked the filibuster for appointments" ... lots of context left out naturally) but beyond that he basically wants the Democrats to block Trump for him.
The other was an interview with Cheney where he mentioned being rebuffed at one point for being "out of his lane". Again a reminder of power structures and guarded territory that is ripe for local conflict that can stymie larger ambitions.
posted by phoque at 9:31 AM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
The only hope is that there are people around him who actually do understand what is at stake, how the real world works and will babysit him. His need for a babysitter is actually a reason that having Ivanka around and involved as much as it looks like she is, MAY do something to outweigh all of the negatives of her doing so. I do know how absolutely bad that sounds but I do think it's a reality of the situation. Dude HAS to have a babysitter in some shape or form.
posted by Jalliah at 9:34 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Jalliah at 9:34 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
McConnell said they might get a few things signed but was quick to remind the interviewer that he only had 52 votes and that most business requires 60, so basically his hands were tied
I think this more or less confirms what I thought; McConnell is not going to nuke the filibuster. He'll let the Democrats use it to stop Trump's most crazed non-budgetary crap like a border wall and then use those filibusters to campaign against Democrats in the future.
posted by Justinian at 9:35 AM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
I think this more or less confirms what I thought; McConnell is not going to nuke the filibuster. He'll let the Democrats use it to stop Trump's most crazed non-budgetary crap like a border wall and then use those filibusters to campaign against Democrats in the future.
posted by Justinian at 9:35 AM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Economic;
Global Capitalism: Trump's Plans for Jobs, Taxes, Trade with Richard Wolff (YouTube 1hr31min).
This is an interesting talk on the real world impact of Trumps seeming erratically espoused "plans". And Wolff sees commonalities around a trade war and the idea that trade wars can become shooting wars. There is also some thought given to campaign messaging and how it played with voters. This also appears to be just one talk from an on going series with Wolff's main goal of arguing for the establishment of worker co-ops but I haven't listened to all the other videos yet.
The essential problem with globalism (that the people who were hurt by it the most don't even realize) is that service wages didn't keep up with the manufacturing wages being lost. There were no unions, no wage pressure, everyone was being forced out of semi-skilled union manufacturing into just above minimum wage service positions.
If you could make $15/hr stocking Walmart shelves we'd probably be in a better position among the minds of the current anti-globalists. When people can't feed their families on full time work there's going to be massive blowback among the middle class, no matter the color. America also sadly has the race factor compounding this mother of all fuckups of a transition from manufacturing to service economy and it does act as a red herring while the 1% continue to loot the nation's wealth at ever increasing percentages.
posted by Talez at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Global Capitalism: Trump's Plans for Jobs, Taxes, Trade with Richard Wolff (YouTube 1hr31min).
This is an interesting talk on the real world impact of Trumps seeming erratically espoused "plans". And Wolff sees commonalities around a trade war and the idea that trade wars can become shooting wars. There is also some thought given to campaign messaging and how it played with voters. This also appears to be just one talk from an on going series with Wolff's main goal of arguing for the establishment of worker co-ops but I haven't listened to all the other videos yet.
The essential problem with globalism (that the people who were hurt by it the most don't even realize) is that service wages didn't keep up with the manufacturing wages being lost. There were no unions, no wage pressure, everyone was being forced out of semi-skilled union manufacturing into just above minimum wage service positions.
If you could make $15/hr stocking Walmart shelves we'd probably be in a better position among the minds of the current anti-globalists. When people can't feed their families on full time work there's going to be massive blowback among the middle class, no matter the color. America also sadly has the race factor compounding this mother of all fuckups of a transition from manufacturing to service economy and it does act as a red herring while the 1% continue to loot the nation's wealth at ever increasing percentages.
posted by Talez at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Besides, other countries have nukes too and he enjoys provoking them. The first strike doesn't have to come from him.
"We'll meet again
Don't know where, don't know when
But I know we'll meet again some sunny day"
posted by kirkaracha at 9:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Currently, Trump is in the "freak everyone out!" phase of his negotiating strategy. That is, sow chaos then wade in and take what you want. His nuclear war threats are part of that.
Here's the thing, though -- he doesn't really have a "negotiating strategy". That implies that he developed his mien rather than just stumbling into it and having it work out for him. Remember, he inherited the Trump Organization, so I'm betting that he had this structure already in place, full of people whose livelihood depended on ameliorating his excesses and managing him from below. So when he freaked people out, rather than consciously thinking Okay, I'm going to freak everyone out, and then I'll send in one of my VPs to smooth things over and be the good guy, he just started ranting and his VPs etc. knew Well, fuck, if I don't want this company to go under, I better go smooth things over.
It's not really a strategy so much as it's a forty-year series of accidents that worked out for him.
posted by Etrigan at 9:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
Here's the thing, though -- he doesn't really have a "negotiating strategy". That implies that he developed his mien rather than just stumbling into it and having it work out for him. Remember, he inherited the Trump Organization, so I'm betting that he had this structure already in place, full of people whose livelihood depended on ameliorating his excesses and managing him from below. So when he freaked people out, rather than consciously thinking Okay, I'm going to freak everyone out, and then I'll send in one of my VPs to smooth things over and be the good guy, he just started ranting and his VPs etc. knew Well, fuck, if I don't want this company to go under, I better go smooth things over.
It's not really a strategy so much as it's a forty-year series of accidents that worked out for him.
posted by Etrigan at 9:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
Not 10-dimensional chess, not even three dimensional, but a strategy none-the-less. Put people on edge, uncertain about your goals and or methods so as to have an advantage.
This style of negotiation is by no means necessarily the best way to approach the various relationships he wants to reshape, in fact it's probably the stupidest (cf China) way to go about it. But then again, you know I'm in the Trump is a moron camp, too.
posted by From Bklyn at 9:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
This style of negotiation is by no means necessarily the best way to approach the various relationships he wants to reshape, in fact it's probably the stupidest (cf China) way to go about it. But then again, you know I'm in the Trump is a moron camp, too.
posted by From Bklyn at 9:43 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh hey we were discussing the possibility of our own Stanislav Petrov saving the day? Maybe not so much.
Wait, singing lead in a Beatles cover band in a Mexican restaurant in Moscow is on my bucket list!
posted by kirkaracha at 9:49 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's so far worked for him in business, if by "worked" you mean "actually managed to lose money on a casino".
Like many people, I do not believe that business strategies necessarily generalize to nuclear strategy.
posted by tel3path at 9:50 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Like many people, I do not believe that business strategies necessarily generalize to nuclear strategy.
posted by tel3path at 9:50 AM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
But then again, you know I'm in the Trump is a moron camp, too.
He's a moron. He thinks, like many other in this world, that having to deal with climate change is part of negotiation and a choice. Anyone that thinks this way is an utter moron.
Negotiating about how to deal with it sure but you can't negotiate with the ocean Donald. It will continue to flood Florida no matter how often you tweet at it.
posted by Jalliah at 9:51 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
He's a moron. He thinks, like many other in this world, that having to deal with climate change is part of negotiation and a choice. Anyone that thinks this way is an utter moron.
Negotiating about how to deal with it sure but you can't negotiate with the ocean Donald. It will continue to flood Florida no matter how often you tweet at it.
posted by Jalliah at 9:51 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Some of it's stupidity (the people who genuinely think we can ignore it and it'll go away/not be so bad), but not all. There's also the evil ones who know exactly how bad it's likely to be and don't care because they'll be dead before it gets severe enough that they can't use money or privilege to keep themselves safe.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:59 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:59 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, Carrie Fisher has passed away, so there should be no doubt we're in the terrible timeline.
posted by bluecore at 10:03 AM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by bluecore at 10:03 AM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
God fucking damn it.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:06 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 10:06 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
"We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when
But I'm sure we'll meet again some sunny day"
My birthday's a week and a half before inauguration. I'm thinking now that I'm going to have a "possible futures" movie marathon with Dr. Strangelove, Brazil, and Idiocracy (with Idiocracy serving as our "best-case" scenario).
posted by Gaz Errant at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I'm sure we'll meet again some sunny day"
My birthday's a week and a half before inauguration. I'm thinking now that I'm going to have a "possible futures" movie marathon with Dr. Strangelove, Brazil, and Idiocracy (with Idiocracy serving as our "best-case" scenario).
posted by Gaz Errant at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Shit.
I mean, I know she was in cardiac arrest for at least 15 minutes; which is to say, clinically dead; which can be quite bad for you.
But I was hoping against hope.
posted by tel3path at 10:09 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean, I know she was in cardiac arrest for at least 15 minutes; which is to say, clinically dead; which can be quite bad for you.
But I was hoping against hope.
posted by tel3path at 10:09 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm betting that he had this structure already in place, full of people whose livelihood depended on ameliorating his excesses and managing him from below.
The operating model's also self-evident, and it's based on the fact that companies can move but governments can't. Go into a place, wave around money and give a sales spiel, extract all you can in tax breaks and concessions, and if it doesn't work out take the loss against your taxes and move on to the next one. In the meantime, keep sloshing money from one LLC to another to keep the appearance of liquidity.
Those tactics don't work when you are the government. That's why charades like the Carrier thing grate: they were just another subsidy presented as some kind of arm-twisting. If state and local governments had treated the Family Business the way that he's promising to behave towards publicly-traded companies, the Family Business would no longer exist.
posted by holgate at 10:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
The operating model's also self-evident, and it's based on the fact that companies can move but governments can't. Go into a place, wave around money and give a sales spiel, extract all you can in tax breaks and concessions, and if it doesn't work out take the loss against your taxes and move on to the next one. In the meantime, keep sloshing money from one LLC to another to keep the appearance of liquidity.
Those tactics don't work when you are the government. That's why charades like the Carrier thing grate: they were just another subsidy presented as some kind of arm-twisting. If state and local governments had treated the Family Business the way that he's promising to behave towards publicly-traded companies, the Family Business would no longer exist.
posted by holgate at 10:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Carrie Fisher has passed away
Fuck.
You couldn't go without taking someone else, 2016?
You know, I would say I'm glad to see 2016 go if I didn't feel that 2017 will be even worse.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 10:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Fuck.
You couldn't go without taking someone else, 2016?
You know, I would say I'm glad to see 2016 go if I didn't feel that 2017 will be even worse.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 10:22 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
I've noticed that the media is back to the use of the word "bold" to describe any crazy-ass thing Trump and the Republicans propose.
This was the fashion when G.W. Bush took office back in the early 2000s. Blow off the Clinton nuclear agreement with North Korea. Bold. Invade the middle east. Bold. Sabre-rattling about Iran. Bold. Turn the first budget surplus in decades into tax cuts for the rich. Bold. Privatize Social Security. Bold. A new Medicare drug benefit that is a windfall for insurers. Bold.
The sycophant media used headlines such as: A bold vision. A bold agenda. A bold decision. A bold policy. A bold action. A bold mission. A bold plan. Bold leadership.
Bold is back. And as crazy as ever.
posted by JackFlash at 10:26 AM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
This was the fashion when G.W. Bush took office back in the early 2000s. Blow off the Clinton nuclear agreement with North Korea. Bold. Invade the middle east. Bold. Sabre-rattling about Iran. Bold. Turn the first budget surplus in decades into tax cuts for the rich. Bold. Privatize Social Security. Bold. A new Medicare drug benefit that is a windfall for insurers. Bold.
The sycophant media used headlines such as: A bold vision. A bold agenda. A bold decision. A bold policy. A bold action. A bold mission. A bold plan. Bold leadership.
Bold is back. And as crazy as ever.
posted by JackFlash at 10:26 AM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
At this point the only way 2016 can atone is by taking Trump
posted by Ber at 10:34 AM on December 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Ber at 10:34 AM on December 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
Let's not send him off alone. Mike Pence can keep him company.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
@carrieffisher, 6:01 AM - 6 Nov 2016
Trump speaking his mind isn't refreshing, it's appalling. Coca Cola is refreshing...
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:39 AM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
Trump speaking his mind isn't refreshing, it's appalling. Coca Cola is refreshing...
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:39 AM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
If Trump is popular, most Republicans and even some Democrats in Congress will fear challenging him, worried that even a single tweet attack could hurt their reelection prospects.
Trump’s unpopularity threatens to hobble his presidency
While Trump has received a boost in public opinion after his victory, he still badly lags past presidents-elect when it comes to personal favorability. Currently, his average favorable rating stands at 43 percent, according to HuffPost Pollster, while a 49-percent plurality views him unfavorably. More respondents viewed Trump unfavorably than favorably in the most recent batch of public polls from NBC News/Wall Street Journal, Suffolk University/USA Today, Fox News,CBS News and POLITICO/Morning Consult, all conducted in early- or mid-December.posted by kirkaracha at 11:00 AM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Compare that with President Barack Obama, who entered 2009 with a 68-percent favorable rating – and only a 21-percent unfavorable rating.
Trump’s persistent and deep unpopularity – combined with the fact that he lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton by nearly 3 million ballots – means he lacks the potent argument that the will of the people are behind his agenda.
Mod note: "We didn't want any stars at the inauguration anyway."
FAKE words, REAL sentiment
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:03 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
FAKE words, REAL sentiment
“You know, this is not Woodstock. It’s not Summer Jam. It’s not a concert. It’s not about celebrities. As Donald Trump tweeted himself, it’s about the people. That’s what we’re concentrated on.”This follows the same pattern as the convention: brag up front about how many stars would be there, then say you didn't want them when they refuse to show up.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:03 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fox, meet grapes.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:04 AM on December 27, 2016
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:04 AM on December 27, 2016
What do you mean, it's not Woodstock? I mean, it's not exactly Woodstock, but it's pretty close.
But with Trump, instead of Limp Bizkit.
posted by box at 11:11 AM on December 27, 2016
But with Trump, instead of Limp Bizkit.
posted by box at 11:11 AM on December 27, 2016
It must be Woodstock. And I must've eaten the brown acid.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:16 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 11:16 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
What do you mean, it's not Woodstock? I mean, it's not exactly Woodstock, but it's pretty close.
It's Altamont.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:16 AM on December 27, 2016 [30 favorites]
Labor Secretary Tom Perez: Trump transition probes "illegal"
posted by futz at 11:20 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 11:20 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Example, no Dem is likely to get elected out where I am, but a liberal 'republican' might
Wouldn't they get primaried out as a RINO?
posted by Coventry at 11:24 AM on December 27, 2016
Wouldn't they get primaried out as a RINO?
posted by Coventry at 11:24 AM on December 27, 2016
Reports: Trump Team Asks For Names Of Staffers Working To Combat Extremism
Donald Trump's transition team has asked for the names of staffers at the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security who work on programs to counter violent extremism, Reuters reported Friday.
"Please indicate names of people serving in those roles and status (political or career)," the Trump team said in an email to the State Department obtained by Reuters, asking to identify staffers working on programs to counter extremism.
posted by futz at 11:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Donald Trump's transition team has asked for the names of staffers at the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security who work on programs to counter violent extremism, Reuters reported Friday.
"Please indicate names of people serving in those roles and status (political or career)," the Trump team said in an email to the State Department obtained by Reuters, asking to identify staffers working on programs to counter extremism.
posted by futz at 11:29 AM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump’s persistent and deep unpopularity – combined with the fact that he lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton by nearly 3 million ballots – means he lacks the potent argument that the will of the people are behind his agenda.
Sadly, I don't think that will stop him or Congress at all, unless there really is a political third rail and they step right on it.
posted by drezdn at 11:30 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sadly, I don't think that will stop him or Congress at all, unless there really is a political third rail and they step right on it.
posted by drezdn at 11:30 AM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump May Well Try to Clamp Down on Anti-Trump Humor; Can He?Trump won’t be the first federal chief executive who thinks he deserves a “safe space” from mockery and criticism. Though we consider it one of our God-given rights as Americans to make fun of the president, our history shows that it’s a right that was hard-won and not always well-respected.I can't wait for Trump's anti-Obama zingers at the next White House Correspondents Dinner.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:35 AM on December 27, 2016
posted by kirkaracha at 11:35 AM on December 27, 2016
Trump’s persistent and deep unpopularity – combined with the fact that he lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton by nearly 3 million ballots – means he lacks the potent argument that the will of the people are behind his agenda.
While the GOP dominance of both houses of Congress plus the White House looks damn impenetrable on paper, there are a number of cracks that Democrats can try to exploit and widen:
--Libertarianism vs. authoritarianism: while I expect that most conservative House members are going to fold up their "Don't Tread On Me" flags the second they get what they actually wanted all along (a white conservative back in the White House), there are a handful who genuinely believe in limited government and can stand with Dems to oppose the creeping authoritarianism that this administration is going to try to implement.
--Foreign policy: as the Politico article notes, some GOP leaders are Russia hawks and could be allies in the struggle against Putinist exploitation of this new world order in which American leadership is going to be at least confused, if not dangerously erratic.
--Single-issue coalitions: any of the major reforms that Paul Ryan wants to push through are going to face opposition from an array of interest groups, some of which are not particularly progressive but which have a stake in the status quo. For instance, ACA repeal and entitlement reforms are going to be opposed not just by consumer advocate groups and traditionally left-of-center groups like AARP but also by medical and insurance industry advocates, and they can threaten to hit lawmakers right where it hurts: in the reelection fund.
I think Trump intuits (no, he's not a strategist, but he's brilliantly canny in a given moment) the danger to him, uniquely among politicians, of losing the legitimacy conferred by "the popular will", since he has no real natural base in Congress. He's riding high now on his fluke electoral victory, but even his own party's leaders are at best distrustful of him and he correctly senses that they will turn on him in a moment if they believe he is dragging them down or obstructing their agenda.
For example, I can imagine an "Obamacare replacement" proposal, maybe put forward by some moderate Republican like Olympia Snowe, that basically leaves the system intact, maybe whittles away at some of the essential health benefits or other regulations on qualified health plans in the Marketplace, maybe even ups the subsidies a bit.
Trump wouldn't care about the details, he just liked the bludgeon that opposing the ACA gave him and I expect that within about six minutes of a big health reform palaver he would anyway get bored and wander out of the conference room. He'd just want a deal -- any deal -- that would let him announce that he "fixed Obamacare". Of course, this would infuriate the Ryanists who want to use this opportunity to dismantle the entire medical and retirement safety net if they can.
Obstruct, exploit, divide and conquer the GOP coalition -- that's what House and Senate Dems need to do now, and outside the legislature ordinary liberals have to keep up the drumbeat of non-normalcy and de-legitimization. That's what works, as the Tea Party so horrifically demonstrated.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
While the GOP dominance of both houses of Congress plus the White House looks damn impenetrable on paper, there are a number of cracks that Democrats can try to exploit and widen:
--Libertarianism vs. authoritarianism: while I expect that most conservative House members are going to fold up their "Don't Tread On Me" flags the second they get what they actually wanted all along (a white conservative back in the White House), there are a handful who genuinely believe in limited government and can stand with Dems to oppose the creeping authoritarianism that this administration is going to try to implement.
--Foreign policy: as the Politico article notes, some GOP leaders are Russia hawks and could be allies in the struggle against Putinist exploitation of this new world order in which American leadership is going to be at least confused, if not dangerously erratic.
--Single-issue coalitions: any of the major reforms that Paul Ryan wants to push through are going to face opposition from an array of interest groups, some of which are not particularly progressive but which have a stake in the status quo. For instance, ACA repeal and entitlement reforms are going to be opposed not just by consumer advocate groups and traditionally left-of-center groups like AARP but also by medical and insurance industry advocates, and they can threaten to hit lawmakers right where it hurts: in the reelection fund.
I think Trump intuits (no, he's not a strategist, but he's brilliantly canny in a given moment) the danger to him, uniquely among politicians, of losing the legitimacy conferred by "the popular will", since he has no real natural base in Congress. He's riding high now on his fluke electoral victory, but even his own party's leaders are at best distrustful of him and he correctly senses that they will turn on him in a moment if they believe he is dragging them down or obstructing their agenda.
For example, I can imagine an "Obamacare replacement" proposal, maybe put forward by some moderate Republican like Olympia Snowe, that basically leaves the system intact, maybe whittles away at some of the essential health benefits or other regulations on qualified health plans in the Marketplace, maybe even ups the subsidies a bit.
Trump wouldn't care about the details, he just liked the bludgeon that opposing the ACA gave him and I expect that within about six minutes of a big health reform palaver he would anyway get bored and wander out of the conference room. He'd just want a deal -- any deal -- that would let him announce that he "fixed Obamacare". Of course, this would infuriate the Ryanists who want to use this opportunity to dismantle the entire medical and retirement safety net if they can.
Obstruct, exploit, divide and conquer the GOP coalition -- that's what House and Senate Dems need to do now, and outside the legislature ordinary liberals have to keep up the drumbeat of non-normalcy and de-legitimization. That's what works, as the Tea Party so horrifically demonstrated.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:38 AM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
> Wouldn't they get primaried out as a RINO?
Just lie your face off, just like a real republican.
posted by porpoise at 11:47 AM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Just lie your face off, just like a real republican.
posted by porpoise at 11:47 AM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
“You know, this is not Woodstock. It’s not Summer Jam. It’s not a concert. It’s not about celebrities. As Donald Trump tweeted himself, it’s about the people me. That’s what we’re concentrated on.”
posted by philip-random at 12:04 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 12:04 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Global Capitalism: Trump's Plans for Jobs, Taxes, Trade with Richard Wolff (YouTube 1hr31min).
This is an interesting talk on the real world impact of Trumps seeming erratically espoused "plans".
The actual talk starts at about 32m. It's very good.
posted by Coventry at 12:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is an interesting talk on the real world impact of Trumps seeming erratically espoused "plans".
The actual talk starts at about 32m. It's very good.
posted by Coventry at 12:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't wait for Trump's anti-Obama zingers at the next White House Correspondents Dinner.
At this point, with no press conference since July 27 2016, and it also looks like daily press briefings are on their way out, the White House Correspondents Dinner should really be cancelled. I'll actually be angry if it isn't.
posted by localhuman at 12:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
At this point, with no press conference since July 27 2016, and it also looks like daily press briefings are on their way out, the White House Correspondents Dinner should really be cancelled. I'll actually be angry if it isn't.
posted by localhuman at 12:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
It's not really a strategy so much as it's a forty-year series of accidents that worked out for him.
I don't like Trump any more than you do, but that is classic cognitive dissonance.
"It's not really gravity so much as every time anyone's ever dropped something it's accelerated towards the center of the Earth."
posted by Coventry at 12:22 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't like Trump any more than you do, but that is classic cognitive dissonance.
"It's not really gravity so much as every time anyone's ever dropped something it's accelerated towards the center of the Earth."
posted by Coventry at 12:22 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
* Why Teen Vogue is killing it.
Teen Vogue’s Lauren Duca Battled a Fox News “Partisan Hack” and Young Feminism Came Out the Winner
posted by homunculus at 12:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Teen Vogue’s Lauren Duca Battled a Fox News “Partisan Hack” and Young Feminism Came Out the Winner
posted by homunculus at 12:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't like Trump any more than you do, but that is classic cognitive dissonance.
"It's not really gravity so much as every time anyone's ever dropped something it's accelerated towards the center of the Earth."
But when you start off with a few hundred million dollars, you've got a long way to fall before you hit the ground.
No one's saying that he's totally without talent or money-making ability. He's a promoter/huckster who started out with a big wad of cash and schemed his way to the top(ish). For every Donald Trump there's a thousand more scions of moderately wealthy businessmen who blew dad's money up their nose. It's just that Trump's addiction is money, fame and power and he started out with plenty of the one, leveraged that into the second and then that into the third.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:38 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
"It's not really gravity so much as every time anyone's ever dropped something it's accelerated towards the center of the Earth."
But when you start off with a few hundred million dollars, you've got a long way to fall before you hit the ground.
No one's saying that he's totally without talent or money-making ability. He's a promoter/huckster who started out with a big wad of cash and schemed his way to the top(ish). For every Donald Trump there's a thousand more scions of moderately wealthy businessmen who blew dad's money up their nose. It's just that Trump's addiction is money, fame and power and he started out with plenty of the one, leveraged that into the second and then that into the third.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:38 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Wouldn't they get primaried out as a RINO?
The other half is Democrats participating in the R primary stage.
posted by Talez at 12:39 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The other half is Democrats participating in the R primary stage.
posted by Talez at 12:39 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
OK, I'm ready for Andy Kaufman to rip of the Trump mask and let us in on the joke.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:40 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 12:40 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The other half is Democrats participating in the R primary stage.
I remember there was a scandal in one county I was working in because the chair of the local Dem party had voted in the last Republican primary. To me it made total sense as the way to make your vote count as much as possible, given the county's demography, in an open-primary state.
posted by Coventry at 12:43 PM on December 27, 2016
I remember there was a scandal in one county I was working in because the chair of the local Dem party had voted in the last Republican primary. To me it made total sense as the way to make your vote count as much as possible, given the county's demography, in an open-primary state.
posted by Coventry at 12:43 PM on December 27, 2016
He's a promoter/huckster who started out with a big wad of cash and schemed his way to the top(ish).
His main talent seems to be having more lawyers than the other guy and not being afraid of being sued. This has allowed him to screw over as many people as possible every step of the way.
Jeremy W. Peters of the NYTimes posts this: Progressives who insist racism is why Trump won are guilty of the same villainization they decry when others do it.
with a link to this NYTimes op ed:
Sorry, Liberals. Bigotry Didn’t Elect Donald Trump by David Paul Kuhn.
Does not go over well with the twitterverse.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:45 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
His main talent seems to be having more lawyers than the other guy and not being afraid of being sued. This has allowed him to screw over as many people as possible every step of the way.
Jeremy W. Peters of the NYTimes posts this: Progressives who insist racism is why Trump won are guilty of the same villainization they decry when others do it.
with a link to this NYTimes op ed:
Sorry, Liberals. Bigotry Didn’t Elect Donald Trump by David Paul Kuhn.
Does not go over well with the twitterverse.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:45 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well it doesn't go over well on twitter because it's poorly argued, ignores lots of evidence to just repeat the hotly desired conclusion that folks aren't really racist, racism had little to do with the election and thus it's not important to try to address bigotry in society.
posted by R343L at 12:50 PM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by R343L at 12:50 PM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
"It's not really gravity so much as every time anyone's ever dropped something it's accelerated towards the center of the Earth."
"To turn $100 into $110 is work. To turn $100 million into $110 million is inevitable." -- Edgar Bronfman (who knew something about inheriting a shitload of money and making a little bit more)
You've seen the stories about how Trump would be richer (than most independent estimates put his actual worth at) if he'd just sunk his inheritance into an index fund, right? The dropped thing seems to be flying in a rather incorrect direction.
posted by Etrigan at 12:59 PM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
"To turn $100 into $110 is work. To turn $100 million into $110 million is inevitable." -- Edgar Bronfman (who knew something about inheriting a shitload of money and making a little bit more)
You've seen the stories about how Trump would be richer (than most independent estimates put his actual worth at) if he'd just sunk his inheritance into an index fund, right? The dropped thing seems to be flying in a rather incorrect direction.
posted by Etrigan at 12:59 PM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
Racism and other forms of bigotry are symptoms of stupidity, but so is the tendency to admire assholish bullies like Donald Trump. As they say, correlation is not causation, but they make it easier to make a general profile.
And as I like to point out, that "liberal media" entity, the New York Times, was essentially promoting Donald Trump the Real Estate Developer and 'Colorful Character' long before they were cheerleading the case for WMDs in Iraq.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:02 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
And as I like to point out, that "liberal media" entity, the New York Times, was essentially promoting Donald Trump the Real Estate Developer and 'Colorful Character' long before they were cheerleading the case for WMDs in Iraq.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:02 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sorry, Liberals. Bigotry Didn’t Elect Donald Trump by David Paul Kuhn.
I guess the double edged sword to having a charismatic person like Barack Obama be president is that he's now being used as every American's black friend.
posted by FJT at 1:05 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
I guess the double edged sword to having a charismatic person like Barack Obama be president is that he's now being used as every American's black friend.
posted by FJT at 1:05 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
Sorry, Liberals. Bigotry Didn’t Elect Donald Trump by David Paul Kuhn.
You mean all the KKK and Nazi endorsements weren't a signal? The antisemetic and racist cyberbullying? The anti-immigrant and sexist rhetoric? The people across America who'll swear up and down they aren't racist but hate Obama and think he's a traitor and were thoroughly convinced he was a Muslim from Kenya because Sheriff Joe and Trump said so?
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
You mean all the KKK and Nazi endorsements weren't a signal? The antisemetic and racist cyberbullying? The anti-immigrant and sexist rhetoric? The people across America who'll swear up and down they aren't racist but hate Obama and think he's a traitor and were thoroughly convinced he was a Muslim from Kenya because Sheriff Joe and Trump said so?
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
Outrage drives clicks. NYT is just trying to compete in this exciting new media landscape!
posted by Existential Dread at 1:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 1:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
The last sentence of the Kuhn article is the most important: "We can look for the worst in our opponents, but that doesn’t always explain how they got the best of us."
The part that's responsive to people's reactions here is
The part that's responsive to people's reactions here is
This argument [i.e., "It was the economy, stupid"] does not ignore bigotry. Racism appeared more concentrated among Trump voters. One poll found that four in 10 Trump supporters said blacks were more “lazy” than whites, compared with one-quarter of Clinton or John Kasich supporters.posted by Coventry at 1:24 PM on December 27, 2016
But traits are not motives and don’t necessarily decide votes. Consider that four in 10 liberal Democrats, the largest share of any group, said in 2011 that they would hold a Mormon candidate’s faith against him or her. It would be silly to argue that, therefore, liberals voted for Mr. Obama because Mitt Romney was Mormon.
I appreciated this blog post on the bigot issue/editorial by longtime blogger Rafe Colburn
everything about Trump’s campaign signalled that his administration would maintain and even expand white privilege as a force in America. Trump himself is the personfication of white privilege — he’s a rich white guy who set out every day to show that he didn’t care about the norms established for Presidential candidates. He made it perfectly clear that the ethical standards applied to past candidates were irrelevant to him. He doesn’t think it is important for one prove they are qualified to hold a job in order to get it. If black people have to be twice as good to be recognized as successful at work, Donald Trump is living proof that there is no floor on how bad you can be as long as you can speak in bro code in a way that appeals to white people.posted by jessamyn at 1:31 PM on December 27, 2016 [36 favorites]
But traits are not motives and don’t necessarily decide votes.
As if bigotry were simply, oh, a personality trait like extroversion or a predilection for puns.
A more accurate title would have been "Yes, Liberals, Bigotry Enabled the Election of Trump." Bigotry includes the voter suppression and gerrymandering that helped carry those few key counties that tipped a couple swing states and the sheer volume of vitriol directed at the appearance of scandal for a woman as opposed to the evidence for a man. It describes why we have to pander to a few rust belt white males and ignore an overwhelming popular vote victory on the strength of the coastal populations. That title, engineered to get clicks from both the right and left, is bigotry itself, because it implicitly argues that 'white working class' issues are simply more important than issues of race, gender equality, sexual assault, and more.
Yes, it would in theory be easier for Dems to pander to the white working class next election rather than roll back the Republican undermining of our voting system. But I don't think that is the correct course of action to take; it may be easier, but there's no justice in it.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:32 PM on December 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
As if bigotry were simply, oh, a personality trait like extroversion or a predilection for puns.
A more accurate title would have been "Yes, Liberals, Bigotry Enabled the Election of Trump." Bigotry includes the voter suppression and gerrymandering that helped carry those few key counties that tipped a couple swing states and the sheer volume of vitriol directed at the appearance of scandal for a woman as opposed to the evidence for a man. It describes why we have to pander to a few rust belt white males and ignore an overwhelming popular vote victory on the strength of the coastal populations. That title, engineered to get clicks from both the right and left, is bigotry itself, because it implicitly argues that 'white working class' issues are simply more important than issues of race, gender equality, sexual assault, and more.
Yes, it would in theory be easier for Dems to pander to the white working class next election rather than roll back the Republican undermining of our voting system. But I don't think that is the correct course of action to take; it may be easier, but there's no justice in it.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:32 PM on December 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
> It would be silly to argue that, therefore, liberals voted for Mr. Obama because Mitt Romney was Mormon.
This is ludicrous. Obama did not make an issue of Romney's religion at all, while Trump specifically campaigned on racism, and amped up the appeals to racial animus as he saw that it was helping him in the polls. Fuck this guy and his desperate attempt at false equivalence.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
This is ludicrous. Obama did not make an issue of Romney's religion at all, while Trump specifically campaigned on racism, and amped up the appeals to racial animus as he saw that it was helping him in the polls. Fuck this guy and his desperate attempt at false equivalence.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
Consider that four in 10 liberal Democrats, the largest share of any group, said in 2011 that they would hold a Mormon candidate’s faith against him or her.
Hmm, the quote you shared caused me to zoom in on the term "liberal Democrats". Why them? There are a lot of moderate and conservative Dems. And let's not forget, plenty of religious Democrats, particularly among minority groups. Sounds like a cherry picked gotcha statistic to me.
posted by FJT at 1:34 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hmm, the quote you shared caused me to zoom in on the term "liberal Democrats". Why them? There are a lot of moderate and conservative Dems. And let's not forget, plenty of religious Democrats, particularly among minority groups. Sounds like a cherry picked gotcha statistic to me.
posted by FJT at 1:34 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Consider that four in 10 liberal Democrats, the largest share of any group, said in 2011 that they would hold a Mormon candidate’s faith against him or her. It would be silly to argue that, therefore, liberals voted for Mr. Obama because Mitt Romney was Mormon.
If Obama had campaigned on an anti-Mormon platform it would have been 100% fair to say that he had been elected because of anti-Mormon bigotry. Trump's racism and sexism were defining features of his campaign; of course that's why he was elected.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:37 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
If Obama had campaigned on an anti-Mormon platform it would have been 100% fair to say that he had been elected because of anti-Mormon bigotry. Trump's racism and sexism were defining features of his campaign; of course that's why he was elected.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:37 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
FJT: It's a strange segment to pick, but the term is taken directly from a Pew Research Center Report which is not making this argument.
Politically, more Democrats than Republicans say they would be less likely to support a Mormon candidate. Liberal Democrats stand out, with 41% saying they would be less likely to support a Mormon candidate. Only about a quarter or fewer in other groups say this.posted by Coventry at 1:40 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump's racism and sexism were defining features of his campaign; of course that's why he was elected.
He was elected because people voted for him. To vote for him, people had to be bigots. But Kuhn's argument is that that doesn't mean their votes were motivated by bigotry.
posted by Coventry at 1:41 PM on December 27, 2016
He was elected because people voted for him. To vote for him, people had to be bigots. But Kuhn's argument is that that doesn't mean their votes were motivated by bigotry.
posted by Coventry at 1:41 PM on December 27, 2016
Also, I don't think the point of the Mormon story is to say "Look, Democrats are bigots, too!" It's just a reductio ad absurdum to show the fallacy of assuming Trump voters were motivated by bigotry because they were bigots.
Edit: Was in response to "This is ludicrous. Obama did not make an issue of Romney's religion at all."
posted by Coventry at 1:46 PM on December 27, 2016
Edit: Was in response to "This is ludicrous. Obama did not make an issue of Romney's religion at all."
posted by Coventry at 1:46 PM on December 27, 2016
I think any article with a title that begins "Sorry, Liberals, But..." is something you can just pass right on by.
Also see: "Sorry, Feminists, But..." You can just ignore those too.
posted by emjaybee at 1:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [44 favorites]
Also see: "Sorry, Feminists, But..." You can just ignore those too.
posted by emjaybee at 1:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [44 favorites]
But Kuhn's argument is that that doesn't mean their votes were motivated by bigotry.
We have a president elect that got into the national political spotlight by whipping a racist conspiracy that a sitting African-American president wasn't born in this country. A claim doubly offensive to racial minorities and immigrants. A president-elect who ran as an outsider, true, but who's PRIMARY method of signaling his "outsider-ness" is with blunt racist and xenophobic statements, like the one he kicked off his campaign with about Mexican immigrants.
And let's get another thing straight. Donald Trump's campaign may be about "economic anxiety", but the cause of economic anxiety, meaning the enemy of hard working Americans just happen to be Mexicans and Chinese?
posted by FJT at 1:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
We have a president elect that got into the national political spotlight by whipping a racist conspiracy that a sitting African-American president wasn't born in this country. A claim doubly offensive to racial minorities and immigrants. A president-elect who ran as an outsider, true, but who's PRIMARY method of signaling his "outsider-ness" is with blunt racist and xenophobic statements, like the one he kicked off his campaign with about Mexican immigrants.
And let's get another thing straight. Donald Trump's campaign may be about "economic anxiety", but the cause of economic anxiety, meaning the enemy of hard working Americans just happen to be Mexicans and Chinese?
posted by FJT at 1:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's just a reductio ad absurdum to show the fallacy of assuming Trump voters were motivated by bigotry because they were bigots.
You don't need to be a bigot to be motivated by bigotry.
posted by FJT at 1:53 PM on December 27, 2016
You don't need to be a bigot to be motivated by bigotry.
posted by FJT at 1:53 PM on December 27, 2016
> But Kuhn's argument is that that doesn't mean their votes were motivated by bigotry.
It's a terrible argument, and several people have already explained why. You're doing it no favors by trying to explain away its many weaknesses.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:54 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's a terrible argument, and several people have already explained why. You're doing it no favors by trying to explain away its many weaknesses.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:54 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
And let's get another thing straight. Donald Trump's campaign may be about "economic anxiety", but the cause of economic anxiety, meaning the enemy of hard working Americans just happen to be Mexicans and Chinese?
Trump exploited the fact that there are many people who prefer easy answers and a vulnerable target to blame over complex issues which are largely inevitable, such as employers turning to machines over human labor in manufacturing. Bigotry did play a role in why they blamed immigration rather than the people (and corporations) who are actually responsible for these issues.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:56 PM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Trump exploited the fact that there are many people who prefer easy answers and a vulnerable target to blame over complex issues which are largely inevitable, such as employers turning to machines over human labor in manufacturing. Bigotry did play a role in why they blamed immigration rather than the people (and corporations) who are actually responsible for these issues.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:56 PM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
tonycpsu: I don't think anyone's explained why it's a terrible argument. Everything said so far supports the idea that you had to be a bigot to vote for Trump, but not that bigotry was the primary motive for voting for him.
posted by Coventry at 1:57 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 1:57 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can never know what their actual motives were. I do know they voted for a bigot whose platform was bigotry, and, whatever they thought they were doing, that's what counts.
posted by maxsparber at 1:58 PM on December 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 1:58 PM on December 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
It doesn't have to be the primary motive to be a deciding factor. For some, bigotry was necessary but not sufficient.
posted by GrammarMoses at 2:00 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by GrammarMoses at 2:00 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Press pool reports that Trump Tower is currently being evacuated. [Trump himself is in Florida.] (via Twitter)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:00 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:00 PM on December 27, 2016
maxsparber: That's what counts as far as marking the act of voting for him as unethical, maybe. But that doesn't mean that bigotry won him the election.
ETA: To be clear, I do think voting for him was unethical, for this and many other reasons.
posted by Coventry at 2:01 PM on December 27, 2016
ETA: To be clear, I do think voting for him was unethical, for this and many other reasons.
posted by Coventry at 2:01 PM on December 27, 2016
Mod note: reminder: edit window is for typos. Please don't edit your comments for content. Add a second comment if you have to add more content. Thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:05 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:05 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
> but not that bigotry was the primary motive for voting for him.
It's been said many times in these threads, but once more, with feeling: In an election that hinged on ~100k voters across three states out of hundreds of millions of votes cast in 50 states, there are no arguments to be made about any single decisive thing that swung the election that can be supported with conclusive data.
But that's not the argument that Kuhn is countering -- it may be what he says in the headline, but throughout that piece, he's not only trying to say that bigotry wasn't decisive, but also trying to undermine the entire case that there is a connection between bigotry and voting for Trump. It gives him cover, because apologists like yourself can say "see? he does acknowledge that they're bigots!" But of course nobody believes that they only voted for Trump because they're bigots, and most understand that there's no hard data to show that the bigotry was the prime reason for most of them. What many of us do believe, and what Kuhn is trying to fight, is the belief that a large number of them did respond to the bigotry, that the candidate did run on that bigotry, and that it could have been decisive.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's been said many times in these threads, but once more, with feeling: In an election that hinged on ~100k voters across three states out of hundreds of millions of votes cast in 50 states, there are no arguments to be made about any single decisive thing that swung the election that can be supported with conclusive data.
But that's not the argument that Kuhn is countering -- it may be what he says in the headline, but throughout that piece, he's not only trying to say that bigotry wasn't decisive, but also trying to undermine the entire case that there is a connection between bigotry and voting for Trump. It gives him cover, because apologists like yourself can say "see? he does acknowledge that they're bigots!" But of course nobody believes that they only voted for Trump because they're bigots, and most understand that there's no hard data to show that the bigotry was the prime reason for most of them. What many of us do believe, and what Kuhn is trying to fight, is the belief that a large number of them did respond to the bigotry, that the candidate did run on that bigotry, and that it could have been decisive.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump: President Obama campaigned hard (and personally) in the very important swing states, and lost.The voters wanted to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! [real, sad, bored, has nothing to do]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
(Trump Tower is being evacuated right now, due to a suspicious device. D: ) [real]
posted by XtinaS at 2:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 2:12 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
trying to undermine the entire case that there is a connection between bigotry and voting for Trump
Where does he do that?
posted by Coventry at 2:13 PM on December 27, 2016
Where does he do that?
posted by Coventry at 2:13 PM on December 27, 2016
(Trump Tower is being evacuated right now, due to a suspicious device. D: )
a) I hope the alert is not a reaction to an actual threat;
b) I hope that Trump realises that these alerts are an inevitable consequence of his new position, and consequently either divests, or drops his plan of living outside the White House.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
a) I hope the alert is not a reaction to an actual threat;
b) I hope that Trump realises that these alerts are an inevitable consequence of his new position, and consequently either divests, or drops his plan of living outside the White House.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, apparently it was a false alarm. Good.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:17 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:17 PM on December 27, 2016
Right now Trump supporters are having a big old argument about whether or not they can do Nazi salutes at the inauguration, so I'm not so sold on this "not bigots" theory.
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on December 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
You don't need to be a bigot to be motivated by bigotry.
That is some masterful hair-splitting there.
What strange world are we in where the meaning of "bigot" is not "person motivated by bigotry"? What else, I ask, might a bigot be?
Are you suggesting that no matter what people do to hurt people of color, if, in their inmost souls, they really believe that they don't hate those people they just hurt, they cannot be bigots? A No True Bigots sort of argument?
posted by emjaybee at 2:18 PM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
That is some masterful hair-splitting there.
What strange world are we in where the meaning of "bigot" is not "person motivated by bigotry"? What else, I ask, might a bigot be?
Are you suggesting that no matter what people do to hurt people of color, if, in their inmost souls, they really believe that they don't hate those people they just hurt, they cannot be bigots? A No True Bigots sort of argument?
posted by emjaybee at 2:18 PM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
Trump exploited the fact that there are many people who prefer easy answers and a vulnerable target to blame over complex issues which are largely inevitable, such as employers turning to machines over human labor in manufacturing.
Maybe this is one of the things SO obvious, that I overlooked it. But, maybe just like how America's perception of Trump as a "maverick businessman" was slowly built up by years of portrayal in popular media (The Apprentice and news coverage), America's perception of China, Mexico, and the Middle East as serious existential threats is also heavily influenced by their portrayals in the media.
posted by FJT at 2:20 PM on December 27, 2016
Maybe this is one of the things SO obvious, that I overlooked it. But, maybe just like how America's perception of Trump as a "maverick businessman" was slowly built up by years of portrayal in popular media (The Apprentice and news coverage), America's perception of China, Mexico, and the Middle East as serious existential threats is also heavily influenced by their portrayals in the media.
posted by FJT at 2:20 PM on December 27, 2016
Trump will never realize anything. I hope that NYC government-types realize that this will be a not-uncommon event.
posted by XtinaS at 2:20 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by XtinaS at 2:20 PM on December 27, 2016
I'm not so sold on this "not bigots" theory.
No one's making that case.
posted by Coventry at 2:21 PM on December 27, 2016
No one's making that case.
posted by Coventry at 2:21 PM on December 27, 2016
> The biggest US police union is pressing Amazon to follow Walmart and remove from third-party sale a shirt that seeks profit in relation to the Black Lives Matter protest movement.
"Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."
posted by homunculus at 2:21 PM on December 27, 2016
"Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."
posted by homunculus at 2:21 PM on December 27, 2016
no matter what people do to hurt people of color, if, in their inmost souls, they really believe that they don't hate those people they just hurt, they cannot be bigots?
Right, this is exactly what racists believe.
posted by zutalors! at 2:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
Right, this is exactly what racists believe.
posted by zutalors! at 2:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
You don't need to be a bigot to be motivated by bigotry.
That is some masterful hair-splitting there.
I think there's an important distinction to draw between conscious and unconscious bias. The most well meaning anti-racists can be affected and thus "motivated" in a sense by unconscious biases that, if they were conscious and explicit, would disgust them. So in that sense you can be motivated by bigotry without being a bigot. The determining factor here is whether you try and watch yourself for your susceptibility to unconscious bias and whether you try and correct yourself when you find it working its insidious way on you.
posted by dis_integration at 2:25 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
That is some masterful hair-splitting there.
I think there's an important distinction to draw between conscious and unconscious bias. The most well meaning anti-racists can be affected and thus "motivated" in a sense by unconscious biases that, if they were conscious and explicit, would disgust them. So in that sense you can be motivated by bigotry without being a bigot. The determining factor here is whether you try and watch yourself for your susceptibility to unconscious bias and whether you try and correct yourself when you find it working its insidious way on you.
posted by dis_integration at 2:25 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
The most horrifying thing about a lot of police and police unions siding with Trump is that, if protests happen, they'll be the ones enforcing Trump's will in dealing with protesters, and he has no qualms about letting violence happen to his opponents or deploring it with one side while allowing and enabling it on the other.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:26 PM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:26 PM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Hillary made the "mistake" of copping to unconscious prejudice, and people were all HOW DARE YOU IMPLY I'M A RACIST
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:30 PM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:30 PM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Doing postgake of Hillary's performance is largely worthless but boy do I wish she'd just flat out said "neo Nazi shitheads" instead of some cutesy shit about baskets. She might have still lost it at least we'd have it out there.
posted by Artw at 2:34 PM on December 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:34 PM on December 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
A No True Bigots sort of argument?
I think I was just trying to sidestep the whole "are they really bigots?" argument, because those tend to become arguments about whether you can see someone's "inner self" and "Oh, but they voted for Obama". For me, it was an easier to prove that in aggregate they were motivated or influenced by bigotry, because of all this external evidence we have lying around the crime scene.
posted by FJT at 2:38 PM on December 27, 2016
I think I was just trying to sidestep the whole "are they really bigots?" argument, because those tend to become arguments about whether you can see someone's "inner self" and "Oh, but they voted for Obama". For me, it was an easier to prove that in aggregate they were motivated or influenced by bigotry, because of all this external evidence we have lying around the crime scene.
posted by FJT at 2:38 PM on December 27, 2016
I think I was just trying to sidestep the whole "are they really bigots?" argument
Yeah, I don't want to get into that either. It would have been clearer if I'd said that a vote for Trump is clearly a bigoted act, even if it's not motivated by bigotry. Just like walking on if you saw skinheads beating up a PoC would be bigoted, even if the main reason you chose to ignore it was that you were late for work and on thin ice with your boss.
posted by Coventry at 2:43 PM on December 27, 2016
Yeah, I don't want to get into that either. It would have been clearer if I'd said that a vote for Trump is clearly a bigoted act, even if it's not motivated by bigotry. Just like walking on if you saw skinheads beating up a PoC would be bigoted, even if the main reason you chose to ignore it was that you were late for work and on thin ice with your boss.
posted by Coventry at 2:43 PM on December 27, 2016
Now that is what you call "analogy fail".
posted by JackFlash at 2:48 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 2:48 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wish people wouldn't bring in racist violence in such a casual way.
posted by zutalors! at 2:49 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 2:49 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
A vote for Trump is a vote for racist violence, no?
posted by Coventry at 2:51 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by Coventry at 2:51 PM on December 27, 2016
A vote for Trump is a vote for racist violence, no?
that seems to be deflecting the fact that you just casually mentioned skinheads beating up a PoC in your comment, and also just assumed everyone posting here is white.
Like if you can't understand political harm to PoC without bringing up skinhead violence, that's an issue.
posted by zutalors! at 2:55 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
A vote for Trump is a vote for racist violence, no?
Not necessarily no. And even though Trump and his ilk are terrible for various reasons, bringing up a hypothetical violent act is still bringing a violent act into the discussion, and one that is racist at that.
Which is some sort of a complex thing to think about but it's like talking about sexual violence. The world of women is full of real and threatnened sexual violence and so having people casually talk about examples of it (which i am not doing here) is actually bringing more sexual violence into the discussion even if the point is to make a point about how crappy sexual violence is.
And it's clear, often but not always, what people mean by it, but
1. sometimes it's not clear what people mean by bringing it up
2. to the people who live in a world full of this sort of violence, it's an ungood way to have a discussion in mixed company
So, no, I don't think it's a great way to move the conversation forward, personally, for those very specific reasons. Not everyone looks at that scenario and sees themselves as just the bystander.
posted by jessamyn at 2:57 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Not necessarily no. And even though Trump and his ilk are terrible for various reasons, bringing up a hypothetical violent act is still bringing a violent act into the discussion, and one that is racist at that.
Which is some sort of a complex thing to think about but it's like talking about sexual violence. The world of women is full of real and threatnened sexual violence and so having people casually talk about examples of it (which i am not doing here) is actually bringing more sexual violence into the discussion even if the point is to make a point about how crappy sexual violence is.
And it's clear, often but not always, what people mean by it, but
1. sometimes it's not clear what people mean by bringing it up
2. to the people who live in a world full of this sort of violence, it's an ungood way to have a discussion in mixed company
So, no, I don't think it's a great way to move the conversation forward, personally, for those very specific reasons. Not everyone looks at that scenario and sees themselves as just the bystander.
posted by jessamyn at 2:57 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
OK, that's just fucking trolling right there, Coventry.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:58 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by tonycpsu at 2:58 PM on December 27, 2016
You know, if someone says 'Ouch', you could just get off their toes.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:59 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:59 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Hey, Coventry, you've made your point, it's time to let it go and let the conversation move on from your point.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:01 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:01 PM on December 27, 2016
Talez: “When people can't feed their families on full time work there's going to be massive blowback among the middle class, no matter the color.”That's what riles me up most when these assholes say things like, "If you’re a single mom, and you’ve two kids in the city of Richmond, you can almost make $50,000 a year on the public dole," and then Politifact rates that "Mostly True." The analysis admits up front that the woman in this scenario works 40 hours a week for minimum wage, then goes on to say its costs $35,360 more than she makes for her family to be "self-sufficent."
posted by ob1quixote at 3:15 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
The one skill Trump has worked to master is the con. He did that when he was young and he's been running with it ever since, since it's been working for him.
One of the big elements of Trump's style, which has been noticed by a number of folks, is misdirection. He will tweet something outrageous to distract our attention from something more serious. He has been doing this for his entire career; it's how he gets people to invest in his losing ventures, like the Atlantic City casino empire that was already upside-down when he took it public. He has always used his name and his last flashy deed to deflect attention from his failures and inadequacies.
It is now clear Trump doesn't want the job or its responsibilities. With a month left to go it's hard to see where the cracks are but for one thing, I don't see the Secret Service putting up with Trump's armed private security goons being in the picture. They have already spent a fortune and inconvenienced thousands of people trying to secure Trump Tower, and I suspect a line will be drawn in the sand before he takes office.
As for his capacity to drop a nuke on someone, there are a lot of moving parts between Trump's finger and the mushroom cloud many of which have to be set in motion by human beings. Every one of those people has been trained for their whole career with an expectation of how that order will arrive, and since 1965 or so "first strike" hasn't been that expectation. I personally find it hard to believe the whole awkward Rube Goldberg apparatus of nuclear command and control will function perfectly when President WHAAAAA orders it to to bomb Pongyang.
But it is true that at some point the system's failure to heel to der TrumpenFuhrer will amount to a coup. As I've said upthread, my biggest worry isn't so much that the world will end and we won't see another Christmas, as that the inevitable and necessary coup against this idiot manchild will be permanent instead of temporary, and that the people who take power for goddamn good reasons will fail to give it up for much less good reasons.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:17 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
One of the big elements of Trump's style, which has been noticed by a number of folks, is misdirection. He will tweet something outrageous to distract our attention from something more serious. He has been doing this for his entire career; it's how he gets people to invest in his losing ventures, like the Atlantic City casino empire that was already upside-down when he took it public. He has always used his name and his last flashy deed to deflect attention from his failures and inadequacies.
It is now clear Trump doesn't want the job or its responsibilities. With a month left to go it's hard to see where the cracks are but for one thing, I don't see the Secret Service putting up with Trump's armed private security goons being in the picture. They have already spent a fortune and inconvenienced thousands of people trying to secure Trump Tower, and I suspect a line will be drawn in the sand before he takes office.
As for his capacity to drop a nuke on someone, there are a lot of moving parts between Trump's finger and the mushroom cloud many of which have to be set in motion by human beings. Every one of those people has been trained for their whole career with an expectation of how that order will arrive, and since 1965 or so "first strike" hasn't been that expectation. I personally find it hard to believe the whole awkward Rube Goldberg apparatus of nuclear command and control will function perfectly when President WHAAAAA orders it to to bomb Pongyang.
But it is true that at some point the system's failure to heel to der TrumpenFuhrer will amount to a coup. As I've said upthread, my biggest worry isn't so much that the world will end and we won't see another Christmas, as that the inevitable and necessary coup against this idiot manchild will be permanent instead of temporary, and that the people who take power for goddamn good reasons will fail to give it up for much less good reasons.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:17 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
I think Graydon Carter should consider himself lucky you can't send someone a nuke via fax
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."
Other sizes are available. As was the case with Walmart, Amazon isn't selling the shirts directly but they're available from third parties.
Police union asks Amazon to pull pro-Black Lives Matter shirt
Other sizes are available. As was the case with Walmart, Amazon isn't selling the shirts directly but they're available from third parties.
Police union asks Amazon to pull pro-Black Lives Matter shirt
The country's biggest police union wants Amazon to stop selling what it calls an offensive shirt supporting Black Lives Matter.posted by kirkaracha at 3:36 PM on December 27, 2016
...
The Fraternal Order of Police said it wasn't opposed to the shirt because it's pro-Black Lives Matter, but took issue with the word "bulletproof."
The group's executive director told CNN, "The bulletproof thing goes to the new assertiveness of some violence prone individuals to take action directly against police."
I think Graydon Carter should consider himself lucky you can't send someone a nuke via fax
No, but Fox News can try to starve children because of an infinitesimal amount of fraud.
posted by zachlipton at 3:37 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, but Fox News can try to starve children because of an infinitesimal amount of fraud.
posted by zachlipton at 3:37 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think Graydon Carter should consider himself lucky you can't send someone a nuke via fax
That guy needs to get himself a taster before Pompeo or whatever deplorable Trumpist appointee gets their claws on the CIA director's chair.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:37 PM on December 27, 2016
That guy needs to get himself a taster before Pompeo or whatever deplorable Trumpist appointee gets their claws on the CIA director's chair.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:37 PM on December 27, 2016
No, but Fox News can try to starve children because of an infinitesimal amount of fraud.
GOP 2016: literally the party of taking food from the mouths of babies.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:39 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
GOP 2016: literally the party of taking food from the mouths of babies.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:39 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
When people can't feed their families on full time work there's going to be massive blowback among the middle class, no matter the color.
White non-college educated middle class voted plus 40 points for Trump while middle-class African-Americans, Hispanics and Asians were just the opposite extreme for Clinton. Strange to say "no matter the color". Color seemed to matter immensely. The hypothetical blowback seems to have an obvious racial element to it.
posted by JackFlash at 3:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
White non-college educated middle class voted plus 40 points for Trump while middle-class African-Americans, Hispanics and Asians were just the opposite extreme for Clinton. Strange to say "no matter the color". Color seemed to matter immensely. The hypothetical blowback seems to have an obvious racial element to it.
posted by JackFlash at 3:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
The Fraternal Order of Police said it wasn't opposed to the shirt because it's pro-Black Lives Matter, but took issue with the word "bulletproof."
Nothing wrong with this shirt though. Or this one.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:48 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nothing wrong with this shirt though. Or this one.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:48 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I went to Fox News so you don't have to:
Or we could just not pay a million dollars a day to keep Barron and Melania in NYC.
Bonus question: which borough is Councilman Borelli from? You get one guess.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:49 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
According to the USDA, $70 million of taxpayer money was wasted in 2016 due to food stamp fraud.Oh noes $70 million dollars of fraud, on a budget of $70.789 billion dollars! Program is a failure, kill it with fire!
On "Fox & Friends" Tuesday, Abby Huntsman discussed the issue with New York City Councilman Joe Borelli and 2008 Clinton campaign adviser Jehmu Greene.
"The SNAP program...has been ripe with problems almost since its inception," said Borelli, who argued that the program's costs are out of control.
Or we could just not pay a million dollars a day to keep Barron and Melania in NYC.
Bonus question: which borough is Councilman Borelli from? You get one guess.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:49 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
Those were absolutely tactical errors, but as the article notes, the campaign poured a ton of resources into Pennsylvania and it didn't get them over the top there. It's amusing to point and stare at the hubris of the Clinton campaign in hindsight, but the actual analysis comes down to playing a what if game over pulling resources from AZ and GA and such so that they could still lose PA.
posted by zachlipton at 3:52 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:52 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bringer Tom: As for his capacity to drop a nuke on someone, there are a lot of moving parts between Trump's finger and the mushroom cloud many of which have to be set in motion by human beings.
There aren't. I keep saying this, not sure why you don't believe me. The President gives the order. The order is authenticated as a valid order coming from the President (not legal or ethical but just that the President is actually giving the order) and the chosen war plan is sent by encrypted computer message to the launch crews. Five sets of two man crews control a squadron of fifty missiles. Only two sets of the five crews have to turn their keys for the launch of the entire squadron to continue. It's five minutes from the President giving the launch order to missiles leaving the silos. A little longer for a sub to reach launch depth, but it's not like the sub is monitoring twitter while doing so to see the President is having a social media fight with Pyongyang. Their entire training is to turn the key when ordered.
Sure, it could be stopped if the conflict ramps up slowly enough where the 25th could be invoked, or if someone like Mattis is in the situation room and it leads to a coup, but like you said a military coup is almost as big an existential threat to our nation as a nuclear war. When every single institution and norm has failed us regarding Trump this year, I'm not going to suddenly put my trust in them now.
posted by bluecore at 4:04 PM on December 27, 2016 [32 favorites]
There aren't. I keep saying this, not sure why you don't believe me. The President gives the order. The order is authenticated as a valid order coming from the President (not legal or ethical but just that the President is actually giving the order) and the chosen war plan is sent by encrypted computer message to the launch crews. Five sets of two man crews control a squadron of fifty missiles. Only two sets of the five crews have to turn their keys for the launch of the entire squadron to continue. It's five minutes from the President giving the launch order to missiles leaving the silos. A little longer for a sub to reach launch depth, but it's not like the sub is monitoring twitter while doing so to see the President is having a social media fight with Pyongyang. Their entire training is to turn the key when ordered.
Sure, it could be stopped if the conflict ramps up slowly enough where the 25th could be invoked, or if someone like Mattis is in the situation room and it leads to a coup, but like you said a military coup is almost as big an existential threat to our nation as a nuclear war. When every single institution and norm has failed us regarding Trump this year, I'm not going to suddenly put my trust in them now.
posted by bluecore at 4:04 PM on December 27, 2016 [32 favorites]
That Fox News article sounds ripe with problems. /languagesnobbery
posted by uosuaq at 4:14 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by uosuaq at 4:14 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I keep saying this, not sure why you don't believe me.I for one was shocked when I watched the 60 Minutes story on the nuclear football. They interviewed the guy who takes the order and asked him if he would have a discussion with the President if the order were given. The upshot of his answer? It is his duty to follow the President's orders.
posted by xyzzy at 4:21 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
OK, thanks bluecore...I think. I will now go open another bottle of Jack Daniel's.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:21 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:21 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Though it's unclear how many - if any - of the new journalists will be scrutinising the new administration and congress, some slightly surprising news (if it's not spin) that a 'profitable' Washington Post is adding more than five dozen journalists.
posted by Wordshore at 4:22 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Wordshore at 4:22 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Marie Claire: A Rockette Speaks Out
"She felt she was being forced to perform for this monster," Mary told MarieClaire.com in an exclusive interview. "I wouldn't feel comfortable standing near a man like that in our costumes," said another dancer in an email to her colleagues.posted by zachlipton at 4:24 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
...
Performing on this newly politicized stage has been "unbearable," Mary reveals. "When I was a child, I remember seeing the Rockettes and thinking they were the most powerful women ever. You don't really think you can be one of them." Now that she is, she carries the full, fraught weight of that responsibility. "We're representing every little girl's dream."
I keep saying this, not sure why you don't believe me.
I for one was shocked when I watched the 60 Minutes story on the nuclear football. They interviewed the guy who takes the order and asked him if he would have a discussion with the President if the order were given. The upshot of his answer? It is his duty to follow the President's orders.
But this came up constantly during the campaign. I'm shocked people are shocked.
posted by zutalors! at 4:24 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
I for one was shocked when I watched the 60 Minutes story on the nuclear football. They interviewed the guy who takes the order and asked him if he would have a discussion with the President if the order were given. The upshot of his answer? It is his duty to follow the President's orders.
But this came up constantly during the campaign. I'm shocked people are shocked.
posted by zutalors! at 4:24 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
> I think to agree with that analysis I'd have to believe that Wisconsin and Michigan, states Obama won by 10 and 7 percent, were lost causes, and I'm not sure I do.
The razor thin margins in those states (0.3% and 0.8%) demonstrate that they were not lost causes. Still, flipping them only gets her to 258. Ohio was a much larger margin, and PA wasn't nearly as closer either despite how hard they tried. It's also not clear that reassigning resources from CO (won by just 3%) or VA (4%) wouldn't have put those EVs at risk. You can't just focus on the missed opportunities without noting where the resources would come from, and contrary to the narrative, the campaign hardly devoted any resources to AZ and TX -- just enough to make a showing there, try to energize Democrats in states that could be trending blue, and maybe put Trump's team on the defensive. It didn't work, but that doesn't mean a different strategy would have done any better.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:26 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
The razor thin margins in those states (0.3% and 0.8%) demonstrate that they were not lost causes. Still, flipping them only gets her to 258. Ohio was a much larger margin, and PA wasn't nearly as closer either despite how hard they tried. It's also not clear that reassigning resources from CO (won by just 3%) or VA (4%) wouldn't have put those EVs at risk. You can't just focus on the missed opportunities without noting where the resources would come from, and contrary to the narrative, the campaign hardly devoted any resources to AZ and TX -- just enough to make a showing there, try to energize Democrats in states that could be trending blue, and maybe put Trump's team on the defensive. It didn't work, but that doesn't mean a different strategy would have done any better.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:26 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
But this came up constantly during the campaign. I'm shocked people are shocked.
I think our brains just keep refusing to believe that it's true that Donald fucking Trump is going to have that much unchecked power to destroy the planet in... 25 days now. It's just such an overwhelmingly absurd and panic-inducing notion that we keep mentally dancing around it, like the man in the gorilla suit who walks through the basketball game in that one meme/psychology demonstration.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
I think our brains just keep refusing to believe that it's true that Donald fucking Trump is going to have that much unchecked power to destroy the planet in... 25 days now. It's just such an overwhelmingly absurd and panic-inducing notion that we keep mentally dancing around it, like the man in the gorilla suit who walks through the basketball game in that one meme/psychology demonstration.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
I think there are a lot of things that people simply took for granted before this election about how the President was supposed to work, and we're finding out how much was dependent on those assumptions (such as a President with a bare minimum of competency and ability to work with others).
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:32 PM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:32 PM on December 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Re food stamp fraud, it's funny how much we keep hearing about the costs of military aircraft, and not once has anyone suggested we should shut down the Air Force.
posted by zachlipton at 4:35 PM on December 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 4:35 PM on December 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
the campaign hardly devoted any resources to AZ and TX
TV ad spend in the week of Oct 25 for the Clinton campaign was $127,298 for AZ, $170,504 for TX.
posted by Coventry at 4:40 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
TV ad spend in the week of Oct 25 for the Clinton campaign was $127,298 for AZ, $170,504 for TX.
posted by Coventry at 4:40 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, for a half a billion dollar campaign.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:42 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 4:42 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
This tweet has been up for 22 hours and still not spell-checked.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:44 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:44 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
As mentioned in Jessamyn's TILTY #27 - which if you don't get automatically is worth considering subscribing to - Seattle Public Library have some after the 2016 election resources.
posted by Wordshore at 4:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Wordshore at 4:47 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
But this came up constantly during the campaign.
But emails! And who could guess which candidate was more likely to destroy the world?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 5:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
But emails! And who could guess which candidate was more likely to destroy the world?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 5:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Re food stamp fraud, it's funny how much we keep hearing about the costs of military aircraft, and not once has anyone suggested we should shut down the Air Force.
Or waste at the Pentagon, even. $70 million sounds quaint once you look into that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:08 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Or waste at the Pentagon, even. $70 million sounds quaint once you look into that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:08 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
slippage that that traditional tracking polls would have certainly caught.
The third debate was on October 20th. Nobody was on the air in Michigan in the week of the 25th. Hardly anybody went on the air in Michigan until the end. Too much of this after-the-fact analysis seems to exist in a vacuum.
posted by holgate at 5:13 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
The third debate was on October 20th. Nobody was on the air in Michigan in the week of the 25th. Hardly anybody went on the air in Michigan until the end. Too much of this after-the-fact analysis seems to exist in a vacuum.
posted by holgate at 5:13 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
All this woulda, shoulda, coulda seems like a waste of time to me. The election was a black swan event, and was so close that we'll never know for sure which factor or set of factors would have made a difference.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:45 PM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 5:45 PM on December 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
One of the big elements of Trump's style, which has been noticed by a number of folks, is misdirection. He will tweet something outrageous to distract our attention from something more serious.
I keep hearing this claim, but I don't think his behavior is that calculated or considered. He seems to be ruled by his impulses, motivated by a bottomless need for attention, and settling scores. His impulsiveness is indeed distracting, and he's a master bullshitter, but he can't help himself. His problems with focus and attention span are legendary and go back decades, and since he first signed up on Twitter years ago, he's always been tweeting without a filter.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:52 PM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I keep hearing this claim, but I don't think his behavior is that calculated or considered. He seems to be ruled by his impulses, motivated by a bottomless need for attention, and settling scores. His impulsiveness is indeed distracting, and he's a master bullshitter, but he can't help himself. His problems with focus and attention span are legendary and go back decades, and since he first signed up on Twitter years ago, he's always been tweeting without a filter.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:52 PM on December 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
All this woulda, shoulda, coulda seems like a waste of time to me.
certainly if it's in aid of blaming someone else for the loss (ie: Bernie supporters, women haters, Julian Assange, Vlad Putin, white men in general, white women in general, bigots, slackers, freemasons, whoever) ... but I'm still looking forward to a sort of mea culpa moment where everybody on the so-called progressive side of things owns up to how they personally blew it ... because it wasn't any single BIG issue that gave Trump the presidency, it was a whole lotta small ones ...
posted by philip-random at 5:55 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
certainly if it's in aid of blaming someone else for the loss (ie: Bernie supporters, women haters, Julian Assange, Vlad Putin, white men in general, white women in general, bigots, slackers, freemasons, whoever) ... but I'm still looking forward to a sort of mea culpa moment where everybody on the so-called progressive side of things owns up to how they personally blew it ... because it wasn't any single BIG issue that gave Trump the presidency, it was a whole lotta small ones ...
posted by philip-random at 5:55 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hey. This Bossert thing makes me very nervous.
Homeland Security Advisor is reverting to being a cabinet level post independent of the National Security Advisor and the NSC, as it was after 9-11, and it's retaining responsbility for cybersecurity.
Reuters:
This is how it worked under Dubya, when Bossert was a deputy, which is being used to softball the reporting. But maybe this is how Trump gets his Stasi.
Washington Post:
Given what's been disclosed or leaked already, I'm reluctant to imagine what extra-legal assistance has"eluded" the White House so far and what Trump's newly cloistered domestic security apparatus might do with it if granted.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:57 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Homeland Security Advisor is reverting to being a cabinet level post independent of the National Security Advisor and the NSC, as it was after 9-11, and it's retaining responsbility for cybersecurity.
Reuters:
As assistant to the president for homeland security and counterterrorism, Bossert will concentrate on domestic security issues and help craft the administration's cyber security policies, the transition team said.
...
In a departure from the current administration, Bossert will report directly to Trump and will have his own staff that is not under the National Security Council, Trump spokesman Sean Spicer said.This is how it worked under Dubya, when Bossert was a deputy, which is being used to softball the reporting. But maybe this is how Trump gets his Stasi.
Washington Post:
Doug Wilson, a former assistant secretary of defense for public affairs in the Obama administration, said Bossert's challenges will include “fostering much more effective cooperation between government and the private sector.”
“The latter is key,” Wilson said. “Cyberthreats don’t respect silos; they cut across them. Bossert has been given elevated status in a Trump White House. If he uses this to butt heads and break china to achieve the kind of public-private sector cooperation on cybersecurity that has eluded us so far, he’ll be doing everyone a service.”Given what's been disclosed or leaked already, I'm reluctant to imagine what extra-legal assistance has"eluded" the White House so far and what Trump's newly cloistered domestic security apparatus might do with it if granted.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:57 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm with Krinklyfig. There's always a controversy and his tweets are always outrageous.
posted by Brainy at 5:58 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brainy at 5:58 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Calling Trump's win of the election a Black Swan event is ignoring Brexit, Le Pen, and the rest of recent events across the Western Democracies these past few years. Liberalism is failing. The Enlightenment is over.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
Liberalism is failing. The Enlightenment is over.
I don't think so. Trump didn't win the popular vote and he only won the electoral college by 1-2% in four key states that put him over the edge. That's not failing, that's a margin of error.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:15 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
I don't think so. Trump didn't win the popular vote and he only won the electoral college by 1-2% in four key states that put him over the edge. That's not failing, that's a margin of error.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:15 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
The Enlightenment is over.
The Enlightenment began to end with the first chlorine gas attack in the Great War. Auschwitz finished it off. It's been advanced technological barbarism for about a century now. We only managed to escape the 20th century without a nuclear apocalypse through pure luck. Let's hope there's some luck left.
posted by dis_integration at 6:19 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
The Enlightenment began to end with the first chlorine gas attack in the Great War. Auschwitz finished it off. It's been advanced technological barbarism for about a century now. We only managed to escape the 20th century without a nuclear apocalypse through pure luck. Let's hope there's some luck left.
posted by dis_integration at 6:19 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
roomthreeseventeen: This tweet has been up for 22 hours and still not spell-checked.
I before E except after losing the popular vote.
posted by emelenjr at 6:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
I before E except after losing the popular vote.
posted by emelenjr at 6:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
This tweet has been up for 22 hours and still not spell-checked.
I know, who spells "fuck-all" as just "all"?
posted by Rykey at 6:27 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know, who spells "fuck-all" as just "all"?
posted by Rykey at 6:27 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Looking over the Celebrity Death Toll for 2016, I can't think of any of the victims who would have been Trump supporters. I'm fairly certain the Emperor Elect hasn't made a respectful commemorative tweet for any of them.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
That term has gotten a bit abused over the years
Yes, "Black Swan" is usually just code for "My model can't reasonably explain these observations."
posted by Coventry at 6:32 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, "Black Swan" is usually just code for "My model can't reasonably explain these observations."
posted by Coventry at 6:32 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Whoa, I really disagree. That term has gotten a bit abused over the years (even by Taleb himself, IMO).
Is Taleb defining it wrong here?
First, it is an outlier, as it lies outside the realm of regular expectations, because nothing in the past can convincingly point to its possibility. Second, it carries an extreme 'impact'. Third, in spite of its outlier status, human nature makes us concoct explanations for its occurrence after the fact, making it explainable and predictable.Or am I using it wrong? Because it seems to me that:
1) Almost no one, including Trump, expected him to win.
2) It will have an extreme impact.
3) We're trying to explain it after the fact.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:38 PM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
"Deploraball" Descends into Chaos over Nazi Salutes. Apparently some of the alt-right now think the Nazi thing might be too Nazi.
posted by Mchelly at 6:49 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 6:49 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is Taleb defining it wrong here?
The aspect of the definition which gets abused is usually "nothing in the past can convincingly point to its possibility." In the case of the election, there are people who predicted what happened fairly precisely. They were just saying things most people don't want to hear.
posted by Coventry at 7:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
The aspect of the definition which gets abused is usually "nothing in the past can convincingly point to its possibility." In the case of the election, there are people who predicted what happened fairly precisely. They were just saying things most people don't want to hear.
posted by Coventry at 7:07 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
From the WashPo, a deconstruction of this Dec 26 tweet on the economy: Even when he’s got a point on the economy, Donald Trump can’t help but overplay his hand. It has some interesting economic data, including this chart of historic DJIA performance between election day and inauguration showing that Trump is in the rarefied company of Presidents Coolidge and Hoover. Also points out that 25% of the Dow's surge since election day can be attributed to Goldman Sachs [CNN autoplay video].
posted by peeedro at 7:10 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 7:10 PM on December 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Looking over the Celebrity Death Toll for 2016, I can't think of any of the victims who would have been Trump supporters. I'm fairly certain the Emperor Elect hasn't made a respectful commemorative tweet for any of them.
I think he did for Muhammad Ali, which is funny because my Trumpnik relatives hated Ali for becoming a Muslim.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:15 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think he did for Muhammad Ali, which is funny because my Trumpnik relatives hated Ali for becoming a Muslim.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:15 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Deploraball" Descends into Chaos over Nazi Salutes.
The Mediaite summary is more accurate I think. Infighting among the deplorables spurred by NYMag's Jesse Singal highlighting anti-Semitic tweets from Baked Alaska.
posted by parudox at 7:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Mediaite summary is more accurate I think. Infighting among the deplorables spurred by NYMag's Jesse Singal highlighting anti-Semitic tweets from Baked Alaska.
posted by parudox at 7:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Who woulda thought a bunch of neo-nazi assholes would fall to infighting?
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Regardless, it means
*** rightwing stupidity popcorn break***
***please point and laugh at the neo-nazi idiots***
***we will return shortly to live coverage of the existential dreadening in progress***
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
*** rightwing stupidity popcorn break***
***please point and laugh at the neo-nazi idiots***
***we will return shortly to live coverage of the existential dreadening in progress***
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:23 PM on December 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Take them bowling?
posted by petebest at 7:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by petebest at 7:29 PM on December 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
A Bag of Toys Prompted Today’s Partial Evacuation of Trump Tower
posted by kirkaracha at 7:32 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by kirkaracha at 7:32 PM on December 27, 2016
@realdonaldtrump The U.S. Consumer Confidence Index for December surged nearly four points to 113.7, THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN MORE THAN 15 YEARS! Thanks Donald!
[real, sad, jealous of Thanks, Obama, I guess]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
[real, sad, jealous of Thanks, Obama, I guess]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
lol, what. who tweets "Thanks, me!"
the president-elect, I guess
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:37 PM on December 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
the president-elect, I guess
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:37 PM on December 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
De Blasio spokesman after Trump Tower evacuation: 'We'll send you the bill'
posted by futz at 7:41 PM on December 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by futz at 7:41 PM on December 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Some updates from next door to the Montana Nazi situation.
1. Still no clear signs of real planning for the Whitefish march. Alt-Right message boards feature lots of giggling over how triggered the SJWs are over it, along with hopes that "antifa" would incite violence over it if it happened, but no one actually saying they're going. Nobody talking about practicalities like carpooling or how much ammo do I bring or can anybody help me make this giant papier-mache Pepe. A friend called the Whitefish police and was told that no application was filed for permitting for the march so...if it happens it will be a surprise for the cops.
2. Our Governor (D), Senators (D/R), House Rep (R) and Attny General (R) released a statement with a united message condemning them.
It's dark fucking times when getting your state R and D officials to agree that nazis are bad is your silver lining for the day. Still it gives me a little hope. For a pretty red state MT is holding on to some D political power, with a D governor surviving re-election in Nov and a shot in a few months at replacing Zinke with a D candidate when he goes on to Interior. I hope that any unity forged in rejecting whatever nazi happenings are to come can somehow help keep our D officials afloat and prevent the state from turning into another redder-than-red Idaho.
They'll probably still fuck it up of course, but I sure would like the whole Richard Spencer / Daily Stormer situation help lead to a strengthened anti-racist solidarity movement within our local Democratic community.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:20 PM on December 27, 2016 [40 favorites]
1. Still no clear signs of real planning for the Whitefish march. Alt-Right message boards feature lots of giggling over how triggered the SJWs are over it, along with hopes that "antifa" would incite violence over it if it happened, but no one actually saying they're going. Nobody talking about practicalities like carpooling or how much ammo do I bring or can anybody help me make this giant papier-mache Pepe. A friend called the Whitefish police and was told that no application was filed for permitting for the march so...if it happens it will be a surprise for the cops.
2. Our Governor (D), Senators (D/R), House Rep (R) and Attny General (R) released a statement with a united message condemning them.
It's dark fucking times when getting your state R and D officials to agree that nazis are bad is your silver lining for the day. Still it gives me a little hope. For a pretty red state MT is holding on to some D political power, with a D governor surviving re-election in Nov and a shot in a few months at replacing Zinke with a D candidate when he goes on to Interior. I hope that any unity forged in rejecting whatever nazi happenings are to come can somehow help keep our D officials afloat and prevent the state from turning into another redder-than-red Idaho.
They'll probably still fuck it up of course, but I sure would like the whole Richard Spencer / Daily Stormer situation help lead to a strengthened anti-racist solidarity movement within our local Democratic community.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:20 PM on December 27, 2016 [40 favorites]
Vox has an interview with Stuart Jeffries, who wrote a group biography of the intellectual founders of the Frankfurt School, and it's the angle that has resonated best with me in my continued attempts to parse exactly WTF has happened to explain the reality we're now faced with.
In particular, this quote from the article pretty much sums up my conclusions in understanding how people en masse could just filter away all of the inherently terrible things about the candidate they ultimately voted for:
And honestly, every interview I've ever seen or read with a—shall we say, middle-of-the-road—Trump supporter (i.e. not some alt-right wingnut or the like) backs this up. There's just this nonchalant, facile explanation of their support, like they couldn't be bothered to think much about it. I would imagine, if you extend the timeline for asking supporters these same questions of rationale, it'll get more vague over time. Hey, that show's over, man. I switched back to Duck Dynasty.
I've watched the rise in popularity of reality television over the years with a mix of morbid fascination and disgust. But seeing the extent of its impact on this election has transformed my feelings into terror. I mean, we have a large swath of our population whose ability to think rationally has been inherently compromised. How exactly does that end well, regardless of the next four years?
posted by Brak at 8:40 PM on December 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
In particular, this quote from the article pretty much sums up my conclusions in understanding how people en masse could just filter away all of the inherently terrible things about the candidate they ultimately voted for:
[Theodor] Adorno warned of an American “culture industry” that stunted critical inquiry and, over time, blurred the distinction between truth and fiction, between the commercial and the political.I think people have lost the ability to truly discern reality from fiction, as presented in some form of mass media—i.e. something not going on explicitly under their physical noses, so to speak. Our brains have been saturated with so much content over time that has blurred these distinctions, that our capacity for critical assessment of real vs. fiction has been compromised. That what we see through media, no matter its veracity, gets diluted into some form of reality-based entertainment, not Really Real. That the subject of this particular "episode" (season?) is basically a reality television star doesn't help the situation.
And honestly, every interview I've ever seen or read with a—shall we say, middle-of-the-road—Trump supporter (i.e. not some alt-right wingnut or the like) backs this up. There's just this nonchalant, facile explanation of their support, like they couldn't be bothered to think much about it. I would imagine, if you extend the timeline for asking supporters these same questions of rationale, it'll get more vague over time. Hey, that show's over, man. I switched back to Duck Dynasty.
I've watched the rise in popularity of reality television over the years with a mix of morbid fascination and disgust. But seeing the extent of its impact on this election has transformed my feelings into terror. I mean, we have a large swath of our population whose ability to think rationally has been inherently compromised. How exactly does that end well, regardless of the next four years?
posted by Brak at 8:40 PM on December 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
Alt-Right message boards feature lots of giggling over how triggered the SJWs are over it, along with hopes that "antifa" would incite violence over it if it happened, but no one actually saying they're going.
Rust Moranis, that's ... believable but weird.
The people you describe are man-children who are in it for the shits and giggles. In contrast, historic totalitarian movements were generally made up of demobbed soldiers or militias formed after extended periods of social unrest. They were serious about their aims and the means they were willing to use. The Sturmabteilung were effectively the Nazi paramilitary force, right down to having actual battles with other political groups.
On the one hand it's a relief that these Neo-Nazis are ideologically and structurally weak, but on the other hand it's alarming: what does it say that they've come so far when they're basically some pimply dudes fighting about cucks and pepes? I'm scared that they've arisen because of an empty conceptual space in our society, that they're basically being willed into existence by people who want them to exist; and that sooner or later we'll get a genuine Mussolini or Hitler instead of a wannabe-Mosley.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:43 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Rust Moranis, that's ... believable but weird.
The people you describe are man-children who are in it for the shits and giggles. In contrast, historic totalitarian movements were generally made up of demobbed soldiers or militias formed after extended periods of social unrest. They were serious about their aims and the means they were willing to use. The Sturmabteilung were effectively the Nazi paramilitary force, right down to having actual battles with other political groups.
On the one hand it's a relief that these Neo-Nazis are ideologically and structurally weak, but on the other hand it's alarming: what does it say that they've come so far when they're basically some pimply dudes fighting about cucks and pepes? I'm scared that they've arisen because of an empty conceptual space in our society, that they're basically being willed into existence by people who want them to exist; and that sooner or later we'll get a genuine Mussolini or Hitler instead of a wannabe-Mosley.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:43 PM on December 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
What it says is: the communication's a lot better, but not necessarily the will to actually get out and -do- things. Trolling is much easier than putting yourself out there in the physical world. Especially if you think people might fight back.
posted by Archelaus at 8:46 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 8:46 PM on December 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
What it says is: the communication's a lot better, but not necessarily the will to actually get out and -do- things. Trolling is much easier than putting yourself out there in the physical world. Especially if you think people might fight back.
Yeah. It's also a big jump because unlike in the case of the Weimar Republic the police are not and will not be outgunned. SWAT teams, for better or worse, are often like extremely poorly trained infantry detachments.
posted by jaduncan at 9:01 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah. It's also a big jump because unlike in the case of the Weimar Republic the police are not and will not be outgunned. SWAT teams, for better or worse, are often like extremely poorly trained infantry detachments.
posted by jaduncan at 9:01 PM on December 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
In contrast, historic totalitarian movements were generally made up of demobbed soldiers or militias formed after extended periods of social unrest.
The spikiest, 'roidiest 'respect mah authoritay' cops and the most disillusioned and messed-up subset of Iraq / Afghanistan vets are going to show up eventually one way or another. The two groups overlap in some ways: look at the 3%ers and Oath Keepers and the career paths into civilian life for younger veterans. History is not destiny, but there are many thousands of young American men living in small towns who signed up for a way to get out of those small towns and instead spent large chunks of the 00s in far-away war zones. Not the same as the mass deployment of the Great War, but keep a close eye on the sales pitch to Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.
posted by holgate at 9:05 PM on December 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
The spikiest, 'roidiest 'respect mah authoritay' cops and the most disillusioned and messed-up subset of Iraq / Afghanistan vets are going to show up eventually one way or another. The two groups overlap in some ways: look at the 3%ers and Oath Keepers and the career paths into civilian life for younger veterans. History is not destiny, but there are many thousands of young American men living in small towns who signed up for a way to get out of those small towns and instead spent large chunks of the 00s in far-away war zones. Not the same as the mass deployment of the Great War, but keep a close eye on the sales pitch to Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.
posted by holgate at 9:05 PM on December 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
we have a large swath of our population whose ability to think rationally has been inherently compromised. How exactly does that end well, regardless of the next four years?
Any student of Hofstadter (or Adorno, or Debord) could argue that this has been true from the get-go.
If there's something specifically connected to reality television going on here--which I'm totally prepared to entertain heh as a possibility--I'd like to break down how it's/they're distinct from e.g. the talk shows of the 80s (say, Morton Downey Jr.) that essentially functioned much like reality TV. Have infotainment voters actually changed that much?
In response to your question, it doesn't. Best-case scenario we survive the next four years and spend decades rebuilding the shattered remnants of the "Great Experiment."
posted by aspersioncast at 9:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Any student of Hofstadter (or Adorno, or Debord) could argue that this has been true from the get-go.
If there's something specifically connected to reality television going on here--which I'm totally prepared to entertain heh as a possibility--I'd like to break down how it's/they're distinct from e.g. the talk shows of the 80s (say, Morton Downey Jr.) that essentially functioned much like reality TV. Have infotainment voters actually changed that much?
In response to your question, it doesn't. Best-case scenario we survive the next four years and spend decades rebuilding the shattered remnants of the "Great Experiment."
posted by aspersioncast at 9:16 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Offtopic:
Well, in case it wasn't clear, I also would go with worse. I think a lot of ex-military people spend some of our time being remarkably annoyed at the lack of trigger discipline and decent RoEs that normal police exhibit, let alone the groups that are nominally meant to be the well drilled cream.
It is fundamentally irresponsible, and giving people warrior style rhetoric without the side portion of honour and an intense focus on discipline in general is unsurprisingly leading to some police SWAT teams looking more and more like lazy third world LEO types who haven't yet been blooded. The tendency to react so forcefully is also very reminicient of soldiers during their first contact. SWAT teams don't generally have real combat to go on, so it's perhaps unsurprising that a lot of rural units look piss poor when that lack of experience is combined with very little time for specific training and a cultural acceptance that it's best to go in hard on every occasion.
That lack of firm RoEs leads to misunderstandings on both sides. It's idiocy absent massively increased training and some of the mentality doesn't appear to have come *that* far since Kent State in some ways, because nobody is absolutely clear what will or will not get people shot but it's up to civilians to guess. Having RoEs that aren't clear will eventually lead to needless deaths. That's why we have RoEs.
Tl;dr: does it piss me off that police are often on RoEs that are less restrictive than my soldiers had to put up with in hot war zones? Very much yes, it's extremely negligent.
posted by jaduncan at 9:18 PM on December 27, 2016 [35 favorites]
Well, in case it wasn't clear, I also would go with worse. I think a lot of ex-military people spend some of our time being remarkably annoyed at the lack of trigger discipline and decent RoEs that normal police exhibit, let alone the groups that are nominally meant to be the well drilled cream.
It is fundamentally irresponsible, and giving people warrior style rhetoric without the side portion of honour and an intense focus on discipline in general is unsurprisingly leading to some police SWAT teams looking more and more like lazy third world LEO types who haven't yet been blooded. The tendency to react so forcefully is also very reminicient of soldiers during their first contact. SWAT teams don't generally have real combat to go on, so it's perhaps unsurprising that a lot of rural units look piss poor when that lack of experience is combined with very little time for specific training and a cultural acceptance that it's best to go in hard on every occasion.
That lack of firm RoEs leads to misunderstandings on both sides. It's idiocy absent massively increased training and some of the mentality doesn't appear to have come *that* far since Kent State in some ways, because nobody is absolutely clear what will or will not get people shot but it's up to civilians to guess. Having RoEs that aren't clear will eventually lead to needless deaths. That's why we have RoEs.
Tl;dr: does it piss me off that police are often on RoEs that are less restrictive than my soldiers had to put up with in hot war zones? Very much yes, it's extremely negligent.
posted by jaduncan at 9:18 PM on December 27, 2016 [35 favorites]
What it says is: the communication's a lot better, but not necessarily the will to actually get out and -do- things. Trolling is much easier than putting yourself out there in the physical world. Especially if you think people might fight back.
It's not just better it's easier and needs way less of a commitment. Today you can be a Nazi without having to put your pants on.
posted by Jalliah at 9:21 PM on December 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think it's somewhat on-topic: the sense of empowerment among cop union higher-ups to treat BLM as a disrespect to 'mah authoritay' along with a presumption that the federal government will resume its dumping of military surplus gear on local PDs means that the already self-enforcing cult of the Urban Warrior Hero SWATcop is likely to have the backing of the White House. That may be a stronger early indication of how bad things will turn domestically, even before foreign states start testing the thresholds.
posted by holgate at 9:25 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by holgate at 9:25 PM on December 27, 2016 [15 favorites]
In response to the toxic masculinity, racism, and trigger-happy behavior that's infected the police force, I think Phil Ochs summed it up pretty well in the 60s. The sad thing is how pervasive the attitude has proved to be long after that.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:32 PM on December 27, 2016
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:32 PM on December 27, 2016
And here's two more tiny, quavering beams of light from Montana:
Senator (R) and State House Leader (R) claim that they'll maintain the Medicaid expansion (that allows me to have health insurance)
NYT on Gov. Bullock (D) surviving the election
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
Senator (R) and State House Leader (R) claim that they'll maintain the Medicaid expansion (that allows me to have health insurance)
NYT on Gov. Bullock (D) surviving the election
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:33 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
The Central Park Five advert does make me think that Trump was extremely into the killing of dubiously guilty people before he needed to be for any reason other than personal ideology. The full page advert is headlined "Bring back the death penalty. Bring back our police." So, given that ran in 1989, he's been quite hardcore for quite a long time. I can't see that stance reversing as easily as some of the others.
posted by jaduncan at 9:35 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 9:35 PM on December 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm not sure Trump has consistent politics - my first thoughts were that he hitched up with the Republicans because their electorate is easier to manipulate - but he seems to have been consistently pro-business, always racist, and always in favor of the show of force.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:45 PM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:45 PM on December 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think he has a consistent tribal identity, regardless of his wealth and status, and that's tied to the outer boroughs thing where you have the "white ethnic" communities with heavy NYPD / FDNY (and probably NYC FBI) representation and the idea that Officer Kelly and Officer Kowalski were in charge, laying down the law on the streets, no questions asked. It's all there in the Central Park Five ad: nothing's changed. And look at how Pete King (who enthusiastically supported Irish terrorists before he became a self-appointed anti-terrorism gobshite) has embraced all that over the past month.
posted by holgate at 11:02 PM on December 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by holgate at 11:02 PM on December 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
A Friendship for a More Tolerant America
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:58 PM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:58 PM on December 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
@ppppolls:
Just a reminder in the Trump supporter/bigotry debate: 70% of his primary voters in SC still wanted to fly the Confederate flagposted by zombieflanders at 6:22 AM on December 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
And only 24% said they thought it was good the Union won the Civil War
The Economist/YouGov poll released Tuesday shows that a staggering 46% of Trump voters believe the so-called “Pizzagate” conspiracy.
Further, the poll showed that 60% of Trump voters believe the President-elect’s false claim that “millions" of people "voted illegally” in this election, while half think it’s “at least probably true” that President Obama was born in Kenya.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:41 AM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
Further, the poll showed that 60% of Trump voters believe the President-elect’s false claim that “millions" of people "voted illegally” in this election, while half think it’s “at least probably true” that President Obama was born in Kenya.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:41 AM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
Here's what I would do if I had a foundation: I would try to get at what people mean by "believe". I'd also (separately) try to do some detailed stuff about how people think these things are proved.
Like, follow up with non-redditor pizzagate people and ask them where they heard about it, why they think it's true, how they assume it works that there's actually, like, a Satanic pizza parlor where children are openly trafficked by Hillary Clinton and yet no one is arrested. Just do some in-depth interviews to try to get at how this "belief" works with other beliefs.
In my happier moments, I tend to think that if pressed, these people would admit that this "belief" is kind of like my "belief" that the Spanish anarchists could totally have run the country if they'd won the civil war, in that it's more "wouldn't it reinforce my worldview satisfactorily if this were true, also there are no real consequences for saying that this is true when it isn't" than "I believe this the way I believe in gravity".
I mean, we all "believe" things that are convenient and reassuring while deep down knowing that they're probably not true. For most people most of the time, this is more in the "I am eating lots of vegetables every day" and "I am one of the best drivers on the road" than anything else, but you can see how that type of thinking could become pervasive.
Again, in my happier moments I think that the reason people are so willing to "believe" garbage is that they feel totally disempowered, so they feel that nothing that they "believe" really has real-world weight. Hence, why not say that you "believe" in pizzagate? You do...sort of...because it's fun and it's a social signifier.
posted by Frowner at 6:50 AM on December 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
Like, follow up with non-redditor pizzagate people and ask them where they heard about it, why they think it's true, how they assume it works that there's actually, like, a Satanic pizza parlor where children are openly trafficked by Hillary Clinton and yet no one is arrested. Just do some in-depth interviews to try to get at how this "belief" works with other beliefs.
In my happier moments, I tend to think that if pressed, these people would admit that this "belief" is kind of like my "belief" that the Spanish anarchists could totally have run the country if they'd won the civil war, in that it's more "wouldn't it reinforce my worldview satisfactorily if this were true, also there are no real consequences for saying that this is true when it isn't" than "I believe this the way I believe in gravity".
I mean, we all "believe" things that are convenient and reassuring while deep down knowing that they're probably not true. For most people most of the time, this is more in the "I am eating lots of vegetables every day" and "I am one of the best drivers on the road" than anything else, but you can see how that type of thinking could become pervasive.
Again, in my happier moments I think that the reason people are so willing to "believe" garbage is that they feel totally disempowered, so they feel that nothing that they "believe" really has real-world weight. Hence, why not say that you "believe" in pizzagate? You do...sort of...because it's fun and it's a social signifier.
posted by Frowner at 6:50 AM on December 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
I am starting to think that no poll can be trusted anymore due to Trumpists willfully fucking with pollsters.
posted by Etrigan at 6:50 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 6:50 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Fred Clark on False Witness
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:57 AM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:57 AM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
It takes Trump 5-6 minutes to write a sentence based on the time between 1st and 2nd post in a tweet pair.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:57 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:57 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
As somebody who writes content regularly as part of my job, I think Trump needs to slow it down already.
posted by Rykey at 7:03 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Rykey at 7:03 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Gallop Poll: Obama Bests Trump as Most Admired Man in 2016
Ivanka does note even make the list although both Laura and Barbara Bush do and Sarah Palin is in 10th place. My guess is that Ivanka will make the list next year.
Can't wait to see how Trump spins this.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:10 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
22% name Barack Obama as most admired man; 15% name Donald TrumpMichelle Obama was the 2nd most admired woman and JFC! MIke Pence is the 10th most admired man along with Joe Biden, Warren Buffett, Stephen Hawking, and BenCarson each getting 1%.
Hillary Clinton is the most admired woman
9th time Obama has won; 21st time for Clinton
Ivanka does note even make the list although both Laura and Barbara Bush do and Sarah Palin is in 10th place. My guess is that Ivanka will make the list next year.
Can't wait to see how Trump spins this.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:10 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
"Failing Gallop couldn't even predict my landslide win. Sad!" [fake, but really what else is he gonna say?]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:13 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:13 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pizzagate is ridiculous. I do think something funny is going on with that JFK investigation though.
Back, and to the left. You'd think that would've clearly shown multiple participants.
posted by petebest at 7:14 AM on December 28, 2016
Back, and to the left. You'd think that would've clearly shown multiple participants.
posted by petebest at 7:14 AM on December 28, 2016
Probably strong overlap with Sandy Hook truthers as well since that's also an Alex Jones thing.
posted by Artw at 7:16 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:16 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
DJT has become more and more negative about President Obama in the past couple of days. He just tweeted this an hour ago:
Doing my best to disregard the many inflammatory President O statements and roadblocks.Thought it was going to be a smooth transition - NOT!
Inflammatory is not a word I would use when it comes to BHO.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Doing my best to disregard the many inflammatory President O statements and roadblocks.Thought it was going to be a smooth transition - NOT!
Inflammatory is not a word I would use when it comes to BHO.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
22% name Barack Obama as most admired man; 15% name Donald Trump
It seems pretty crazy that a newly victorious presidential candidate who is 1) the first non-politician presidential candidate to win since Eisenhower and the first true outsider to win since maybe forever, and a 2) populist demagogue who has become the most powerful person in the world, could only get 15% for most admired man. Dude is not popular, at least among PEOTI.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:18 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
It seems pretty crazy that a newly victorious presidential candidate who is 1) the first non-politician presidential candidate to win since Eisenhower and the first true outsider to win since maybe forever, and a 2) populist demagogue who has become the most powerful person in the world, could only get 15% for most admired man. Dude is not popular, at least among PEOTI.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:18 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
No Egg? Sad!
posted by petebest at 7:20 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by petebest at 7:20 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
DJT has become more and more negative about President Obama in the past couple of days.
Huh. He really doesn't get how racist this looks, does he? Not surprising, but still.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:23 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Huh. He really doesn't get how racist this looks, does he? Not surprising, but still.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:23 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Only 677 days until the 2018 elections.
All 435 seats in the United States House of Representatives and 33 of the 100 seats in the United States Senate will be contested. 39 state and territorial governorships and numerous other state and local elections will also be contested.
The Wikipedia link has color coded maps for who's up for what. All House members, some senators and quite a few governors.
So, let's find out who's running where we live and meet back somewhere to palaver.
posted by petebest at 7:38 AM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
All 435 seats in the United States House of Representatives and 33 of the 100 seats in the United States Senate will be contested. 39 state and territorial governorships and numerous other state and local elections will also be contested.
The Wikipedia link has color coded maps for who's up for what. All House members, some senators and quite a few governors.
So, let's find out who's running where we live and meet back somewhere to palaver.
posted by petebest at 7:38 AM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
zutalors!, jessamyn and everyone else, thank you for the feedback yesterday, and I apologize for any disturbance my analogy caused.
posted by Coventry at 7:47 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 7:47 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sarah Palin is in 10th place
Not fiftieth? Not hundredth? Not five hundredth?
Tenth.
Oh, America.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:52 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not fiftieth? Not hundredth? Not five hundredth?
Tenth.
Oh, America.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:52 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
WNYC: Looking Ahead to a New York City Election Year
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:55 AM on December 28, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:55 AM on December 28, 2016
NYT on Gov. Bullock (D) surviving the election
And of course the Times avoids talking about what really sank Gianforte - his stupidly grabbing the Montanan political third rail - sales tax - with both hands. Then again, that's a shoal that many a GOP ship has run around on here.
(So, a quick explanation. Montana has no sales tax, instead relying on more progressive models of taxation, like income tax. This tends to rankle the wealthy, since it impacts them more. But on the same token, the lack of sales tax is very popular, and politicians who the MT public think will introduce one tend to become ex-politicians very quickly.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
And of course the Times avoids talking about what really sank Gianforte - his stupidly grabbing the Montanan political third rail - sales tax - with both hands. Then again, that's a shoal that many a GOP ship has run around on here.
(So, a quick explanation. Montana has no sales tax, instead relying on more progressive models of taxation, like income tax. This tends to rankle the wealthy, since it impacts them more. But on the same token, the lack of sales tax is very popular, and politicians who the MT public think will introduce one tend to become ex-politicians very quickly.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
It takes Trump 5-6 minutes to write a sentence based on the time between 1st and 2nd post in a tweet pair.
I see you shiver with anctici...
posted by kirkaracha at 7:58 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump's "NOT!" is reminiscent of Borat's poor grasp of the word.
The tweet is funnier in Borat's voice, anyway.
posted by emelenjr at 8:00 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
The tweet is funnier in Borat's voice, anyway.
posted by emelenjr at 8:00 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Security company Crowdstrike discusses details of Russian hacks of DNC.
(mods if this goes somewhere else I can move it)
posted by emjaybee at 8:01 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
(mods if this goes somewhere else I can move it)
posted by emjaybee at 8:01 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Montana Standard: Religious leaders in solidarity with Jewish communities of Montana
As leaders of Montana communities of faith and practice, we are called to respond to the recent surge of white supremacist and neo-Nazi activity in our state. Distribution of pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic flyers in Missoula and intimidation of Jewish community members in the Flathead Valley moves us to speak out against actions of those who attack the Jewish citizens of our state, and any other minority group, with false assertions and threatening language.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:10 AM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
As an act of solidarity, we invite people across Montana to show support by displaying menorahs in their windows this season. Find one at a local store, print a paper copy from the Internet, or find one in the local Missoula newspaper. The menorah is a symbol of light and wisdom. In this time of transition and challenge, it represents the need to support each other in the work of peace-making, reconciliation and justice.
Thought he was going to be presidential - NOT!
posted by kirkaracha at 8:21 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:21 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
but keep a close eye on the sales pitch to Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.
This does worry me. The wars started winding down and money saving efforts have begun to lower their benefits - efforts begun under an Obama administration and not opposed by prominent Democrats. Young veterans are starting to feel the pinch. They're largely not involved in non veteran politics, but that could change.
posted by corb at 8:37 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
This does worry me. The wars started winding down and money saving efforts have begun to lower their benefits - efforts begun under an Obama administration and not opposed by prominent Democrats. Young veterans are starting to feel the pinch. They're largely not involved in non veteran politics, but that could change.
posted by corb at 8:37 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
No Egg? Sad!
Egg is too busy showing the leadership that no Republican has the spine to show.
I don't agree with his politics but dammit I respect that motherfucker.
posted by Talez at 8:41 AM on December 28, 2016 [30 favorites]
Egg is too busy showing the leadership that no Republican has the spine to show.
I don't agree with his politics but dammit I respect that motherfucker.
posted by Talez at 8:41 AM on December 28, 2016 [30 favorites]
Obama helped re-enstate Montgomery GI benefits from the Bush low point. I'm not a fan of O, but his being not deferential enough to the military isn't among my reasons to dislike him. That he'd callously put our 'defense' force into an Imperial war is. This vet would love it if his country would stop sending younger peers into rich men's wars.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 8:50 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Strange_Robinson at 8:50 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
wow, Kerry on Israel: "If the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic. It cannot be both.”
Are you sure the second half was about Israel? Because Jesus Christ it sounds like the United States.
posted by Talez at 8:51 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are you sure the second half was about Israel? Because Jesus Christ it sounds like the United States.
posted by Talez at 8:51 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, let's find out who's running where we live and meet back somewhere to palaver.
So it looks like Nevada has a governorship and a Senate seat up for grabs and has a 30 day residency requirement to vote, just in case any CA mefites want to go in on a Reno-area compound and have a month-long pre-election residency establishment/GOTV party. Or am I overlooking something? Would CA complain?
posted by contraption at 8:53 AM on December 28, 2016
So it looks like Nevada has a governorship and a Senate seat up for grabs and has a 30 day residency requirement to vote, just in case any CA mefites want to go in on a Reno-area compound and have a month-long pre-election residency establishment/GOTV party. Or am I overlooking something? Would CA complain?
posted by contraption at 8:53 AM on December 28, 2016
No Egg? Sad!
I misread this as "no egg salad" and I was like damn straight, that stuff is gross, and then I was like, why are we talking about egg salad
wow, Kerry on Israel: "If the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic. It cannot be both.”
Dang, Bibi. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:54 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I misread this as "no egg salad" and I was like damn straight, that stuff is gross, and then I was like, why are we talking about egg salad
wow, Kerry on Israel: "If the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic. It cannot be both.”
Dang, Bibi. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:54 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
> The wars started winding down and money saving efforts have begun to lower their benefits - efforts begun under an Obama administration and not opposed by prominent Democrats.
Any details / links you can share on this?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:58 AM on December 28, 2016
Any details / links you can share on this?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:58 AM on December 28, 2016
Any details / links you can share on this?
I believe she's referring to the reduction of the COLA for veteran's pensions.
posted by Talez at 9:02 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I believe she's referring to the reduction of the COLA for veteran's pensions.
posted by Talez at 9:02 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
> wow, Kerry on Israel: "If the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic. It cannot be both.”
It's sort of sad that such a glaringly obvious statement of fact is to be greeted as a breath of fresh air, but I guess that's where we are at this point.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 AM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's sort of sad that such a glaringly obvious statement of fact is to be greeted as a breath of fresh air, but I guess that's where we are at this point.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 AM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
From Egg: "When 92% of black voters don't support the Republican nominee, but the KKK does, there's a problem. Let's deal with it and move forward."
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:07 AM on December 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 9:07 AM on December 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
Trump has said he's going to protect Israel at all costs or something like that. Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
posted by AFABulous at 9:07 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 9:07 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump has said he's going to protect Israel at all costs or something like that. Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
Netanyahu is a similar brand of crazy as Trump. They seem to get each other. Also, Jared and Ivanka are Orthodox Jews.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:09 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Netanyahu is a similar brand of crazy as Trump. They seem to get each other. Also, Jared and Ivanka are Orthodox Jews.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:09 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the idea is the current Nazis have prioritized getting rid of Muslims. They can come for the Jews later when there's no one left to speak up for them
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:11 AM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:11 AM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
Trump has said he's going to protect Israel at all costs or something like that. Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
It also helps shore up the evangelical portion of his base.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:11 AM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
It also helps shore up the evangelical portion of his base.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:11 AM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Trump is pandering to evangelicals wrt Israel. His deference is about Christian eschatology, not respect for Judaism.
posted by jclarkin at 9:11 AM on December 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by jclarkin at 9:11 AM on December 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
Protecting Israel is not protecting Jewish people -- please let's stop conflating the two. And American politicians tend to support Israel for a few reasons, with "protecting the Jewish Israelis" being about at the bottom of the list. Charitably, some support Israel because it is a functioning democracy in a region where there aren't many; uncharitably, they do so because Israel protects American interests in the Middle East.
But many support Israel for creepy Dominionist Christian reasons, where Jews are just supporting characters in an end-of-the-world fantasy that should not drive international politics, and yet somehow does.
posted by maxsparber at 9:14 AM on December 28, 2016 [50 favorites]
But many support Israel for creepy Dominionist Christian reasons, where Jews are just supporting characters in an end-of-the-world fantasy that should not drive international politics, and yet somehow does.
posted by maxsparber at 9:14 AM on December 28, 2016 [50 favorites]
@anamariecox: We just called them "neo-Nazis" and didn't worry about hurting their feelings
Ann O'Tate lives!
posted by entropicamericana at 9:16 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ann O'Tate lives!
posted by entropicamericana at 9:16 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump has said he's going to protect Israel at all costs or something like that. Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
There's a big difference between "said" and "want", especially where the Dilettante-in-Chief-Elect is concerned.
posted by Etrigan at 9:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a big difference between "said" and "want", especially where the Dilettante-in-Chief-Elect is concerned.
posted by Etrigan at 9:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump has said he's going to protect Israel at all costs or something like that. Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
Trump is pandering to evangelicals wrt Israel. His deference is about Christian eschatology, not respect for Judaism.
This. The reason he doesn't step in with the neo-nazis is because his evangelical bedfellows know that the Jews have to return home before Armageddon can commence and the quickest way to end the Jewish diaspora in the United States is a subtle nod to "we'll let these assholes deal with you if you stay".
posted by Talez at 9:23 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump is pandering to evangelicals wrt Israel. His deference is about Christian eschatology, not respect for Judaism.
This. The reason he doesn't step in with the neo-nazis is because his evangelical bedfellows know that the Jews have to return home before Armageddon can commence and the quickest way to end the Jewish diaspora in the United States is a subtle nod to "we'll let these assholes deal with you if you stay".
posted by Talez at 9:23 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
> I believe she's referring to the reduction of the COLA for veteran's pensions.
A reduction that was repealed in 2014.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:26 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
A reduction that was repealed in 2014.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:26 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Monarchy Watch: Bibi is cc'ing Ivanka and Don Jr. in a tweet applauding Donald's trashing of the Iran deal and the U.N. Who needs all that red tape when you can appeal directly to the ruling family?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:53 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:53 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Obama helped re-enstate Montgomery GI benefits from the Bush low point.
So just to head this off at the pass - I think we often get caught up on "Is this a personal/political failing" of certain politicians, and that's not really a helpful way of looking at it. When I say "The Obama Administration did X", I don't even necessarily mean that we know for certain that a Republican would have done Y. In many cases a Republican would also have done X. But it was the Democrat who was in office when these shifts were happening.
So the GI bill is a great example of this. The President who signed the Post 9/11 GI Bill into law, was Bush. Despite the fact that many Republican legislators, including people in the Bush administration, opposed the bill because they (correctly) thought it would hurt retention, the bill was created and the hope given during the Bush administration - while the war was still ongoing, while veterans were huge in the public consciousness. It is easy to increase and very, very hard to cut veteran's benefits during an active war.
However, it was an extremely, extremely generous bill - so generous that the majority of veterans I knew began to take advantage of it immediately. Even the ones who wouldn't have been interested in college normally - the housing allowance helped support veterans to support their families during a bad recession. When college was entirely free and paid your rent to boot, many, many veterans went to colleges - and full tuition for some very good, very expensive colleges. Columbia. NYU.
Consequentially, by 2010, with the wars, again, winding down, people thought it was time to amend it. They capped the payments to colleges at 17,500$ a year, they pro-rated the payments according to the courseload, and they removed "break pay", which let vets keep getting paid their rent money during winter and spring break. The amended Post 9/11 GI Bill still was infinitely more generous than the Montgomery GI Bill. 17,500$ a year is still a lot of money. But it threw the young veterans college-bound community into turmoil. It was a huge and angry controversy. Many veterans didn't have jobs, and so the elimination of the break pay meant they couldn't pay their rent for those months. While many of the more expensive colleges stepped forward with generous grant programs to pay the difference and enable those veterans already attending school to finish, new veterans hoping to attend top-tier colleges would have to come up with money or take out loans in order to do so. Veterans suffering from disabilities who had taken a reasonable courseload for their condition were now forced to take a full courseload or forfeit their housing allowance. Veterans began to fail out of school and drop out. Again - still a very good deal, and much better than any other group in the country had access to on such a broad scale. But a far worse deal than they had previously, and with a very negative impact.
The generous act took place under Bush. The bitterly resented cuts took place under Obama.
Again, I want to stress this isn't a question of what's fair - whether it's "fair" to blame Obama for cuts that took place under his administration, cuts that were necessitated, in part, because the wars that Bush entered meant that all of a sudden, he was facing unprecedented expenditures on veterans - pension, education, medical, etc. What I'm talking about is what is. It is always popular to increase veterans' benefits during an active war. As the war recedes in the public consciousness, cuts to those benefits always begin to happen as legislators and administrations realize they will have to pay for them and how great the cost of war is.
Even leaving aside any other considerations of ideological or political considerations - it is difficult, for example, politically, for the Democrats to support extraordinarily generous benefits to a population which generally votes against them while their own audiences do without - timing has not been the Democrats' friend in regards to veteran's issues. The Democrats achieved power on the tail end of a war, not the beginning.
posted by corb at 9:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
So just to head this off at the pass - I think we often get caught up on "Is this a personal/political failing" of certain politicians, and that's not really a helpful way of looking at it. When I say "The Obama Administration did X", I don't even necessarily mean that we know for certain that a Republican would have done Y. In many cases a Republican would also have done X. But it was the Democrat who was in office when these shifts were happening.
So the GI bill is a great example of this. The President who signed the Post 9/11 GI Bill into law, was Bush. Despite the fact that many Republican legislators, including people in the Bush administration, opposed the bill because they (correctly) thought it would hurt retention, the bill was created and the hope given during the Bush administration - while the war was still ongoing, while veterans were huge in the public consciousness. It is easy to increase and very, very hard to cut veteran's benefits during an active war.
However, it was an extremely, extremely generous bill - so generous that the majority of veterans I knew began to take advantage of it immediately. Even the ones who wouldn't have been interested in college normally - the housing allowance helped support veterans to support their families during a bad recession. When college was entirely free and paid your rent to boot, many, many veterans went to colleges - and full tuition for some very good, very expensive colleges. Columbia. NYU.
Consequentially, by 2010, with the wars, again, winding down, people thought it was time to amend it. They capped the payments to colleges at 17,500$ a year, they pro-rated the payments according to the courseload, and they removed "break pay", which let vets keep getting paid their rent money during winter and spring break. The amended Post 9/11 GI Bill still was infinitely more generous than the Montgomery GI Bill. 17,500$ a year is still a lot of money. But it threw the young veterans college-bound community into turmoil. It was a huge and angry controversy. Many veterans didn't have jobs, and so the elimination of the break pay meant they couldn't pay their rent for those months. While many of the more expensive colleges stepped forward with generous grant programs to pay the difference and enable those veterans already attending school to finish, new veterans hoping to attend top-tier colleges would have to come up with money or take out loans in order to do so. Veterans suffering from disabilities who had taken a reasonable courseload for their condition were now forced to take a full courseload or forfeit their housing allowance. Veterans began to fail out of school and drop out. Again - still a very good deal, and much better than any other group in the country had access to on such a broad scale. But a far worse deal than they had previously, and with a very negative impact.
The generous act took place under Bush. The bitterly resented cuts took place under Obama.
Again, I want to stress this isn't a question of what's fair - whether it's "fair" to blame Obama for cuts that took place under his administration, cuts that were necessitated, in part, because the wars that Bush entered meant that all of a sudden, he was facing unprecedented expenditures on veterans - pension, education, medical, etc. What I'm talking about is what is. It is always popular to increase veterans' benefits during an active war. As the war recedes in the public consciousness, cuts to those benefits always begin to happen as legislators and administrations realize they will have to pay for them and how great the cost of war is.
Even leaving aside any other considerations of ideological or political considerations - it is difficult, for example, politically, for the Democrats to support extraordinarily generous benefits to a population which generally votes against them while their own audiences do without - timing has not been the Democrats' friend in regards to veteran's issues. The Democrats achieved power on the tail end of a war, not the beginning.
posted by corb at 9:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
Trump has said he's going to protect Israel at all costs or something like that. Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
posted by AFABulous at 9:07 AM on Dece
I'm glad you asked that! Anti-semites are often very supportive of Zionism because they hope all the Jews will go to Israel.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 9:58 AM on December 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 9:07 AM on Dece
I'm glad you asked that! Anti-semites are often very supportive of Zionism because they hope all the Jews will go to Israel.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 9:58 AM on December 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
Beyond that, a lot of American racists identify themselves as ethnic nationalists, and so support a state that they think dovetails with their ideology. They think somehow the presence of a Jewish state can be used to justify establishing a white state in America, apparently never having been to Maine, Vermont or New Hampshire.
posted by maxsparber at 10:02 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:02 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
The generous act took place under Bush. The bitterly resented cuts took place under Obama.
If I'm misunderstanding this, please correct me, but it sounds like yet another case of a Republican acting in a fiscally irresponsible manner, and a Democrat having to clean up the mess and take the blame.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 10:06 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
If I'm misunderstanding this, please correct me, but it sounds like yet another case of a Republican acting in a fiscally irresponsible manner, and a Democrat having to clean up the mess and take the blame.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 10:06 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think the Post 9/11 GI bill was fiscally irresponsible. I think the Iraq War that caused military costs to balloon was fiscally irresponsible, and I think cuts should have come with reducing our meddling overseas rather than penalizing veterans who had already served their country in a terrible, destructive war.
Other than that, yes.
posted by corb at 10:13 AM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Other than that, yes.
posted by corb at 10:13 AM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
it sounds like yet another case of a Republican acting in a fiscally irresponsible manner, and a Democrat having to clean up the mess and take the blame.
Sending people to college in return for military service during a war created the American middle class.
Calling a new version of that a "fiscally irresponsible... mess" might not actually get veterans to come over to your side, from an optics perspective.
posted by Etrigan at 10:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sending people to college in return for military service during a war created the American middle class.
Calling a new version of that a "fiscally irresponsible... mess" might not actually get veterans to come over to your side, from an optics perspective.
posted by Etrigan at 10:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
> but it sounds like yet another case of a Republican acting in a fiscally irresponsible manner, and a Democrat having to clean up the mess and take the blame.
T'was ever thus, yes, but corb is right about the political result for Democrats, because the President owns all of Congress' failures in our broken system.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
T'was ever thus, yes, but corb is right about the political result for Democrats, because the President owns all of Congress' failures in our broken system.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:17 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
service guarantees citizenship! would you like to know more?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:28 AM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:28 AM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Thanks for the clarification, corb, and to be clear, I absolutely support veterans getting all the benefits they were promised when they signed up. And if the nation subsequently is able to do even better for them and increase those benefits without taking something away from someone else, that's good, too.
What I'm interested in is the persistence of the notion of Republicans as the "fiscally responsible" party despite 35+ years evidence to the contrary. This has led to a double standard in which wars and tax cuts for rich people are perceived by a large segment of voters and the media as essentially "free," with no budgetary consequences, whereas every dime spent on non-military economic stimulus and/or the social safety net must be fully accounted for, in advance.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 10:31 AM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
What I'm interested in is the persistence of the notion of Republicans as the "fiscally responsible" party despite 35+ years evidence to the contrary. This has led to a double standard in which wars and tax cuts for rich people are perceived by a large segment of voters and the media as essentially "free," with no budgetary consequences, whereas every dime spent on non-military economic stimulus and/or the social safety net must be fully accounted for, in advance.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 10:31 AM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
My feeling is that if you promise someone something and it's not actually immoral, you need to keep your promise even if it's a hardship. To me that means that if you need to cut benefits - really need to cut them, not just want to cut them for political reasons - you have to do it for the next enlistees upfront so they know about it going in, you can't take away what people already have.
I think that when we cut anybody's benefits, we're saying "it's okay to cut benefits even if it's a hardship and not what people signed up for", and that's not something Democrats should be saying because it gets turned around and used on medicaid, etc. Also, I think it's politically better to be able to say "other people should also get to enjoy this thing" than "other people don't get this thing, let's take it away from the people who do". Also also - there's some leverage against tax cuts if you start pitting veterans against rich right wingers, speaking of optics. "Why don't you want vets to get the money they were promised, Mr. Fat Cat?"
But as usual, "'it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Chuck him out, the brute!' But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot".
posted by Frowner at 10:33 AM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think that when we cut anybody's benefits, we're saying "it's okay to cut benefits even if it's a hardship and not what people signed up for", and that's not something Democrats should be saying because it gets turned around and used on medicaid, etc. Also, I think it's politically better to be able to say "other people should also get to enjoy this thing" than "other people don't get this thing, let's take it away from the people who do". Also also - there's some leverage against tax cuts if you start pitting veterans against rich right wingers, speaking of optics. "Why don't you want vets to get the money they were promised, Mr. Fat Cat?"
But as usual, "'it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Chuck him out, the brute!' But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot".
posted by Frowner at 10:33 AM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
The Democratic Party could wedge the military vote by proposing a re-enstatement of the draft, and a tightening of presidential war powers. Make the Republicans wear the albatross of wars of choice. Make them own the Imperial presidency. The best medicine for loud mouthed bullies is to call them on their cowardice. Lord knows looking for an American political party serious about peace is a fools errand.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 10:38 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Strange_Robinson at 10:38 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I hope I am posting this in the right thread, but for Georgia folks who can't make the DC march and still want to show up for something, I'll meet you here:
Atlanta March for Social Justice
So far about 8,000 people are expected to attend.
posted by staggering termagant at 10:40 AM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Atlanta March for Social Justice
So far about 8,000 people are expected to attend.
posted by staggering termagant at 10:40 AM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
This has led to a double standard in which wars and tax cuts for rich people are perceived by a large segment of voters and the media as essentially "free," with no budgetary consequences
I constantly wibble between anger and confusion on why Democrats don't ever seem to seize the opportunity to make wars not free for the majority of the American public. Wars are monstrously expensive! We even have a precedent of sharing that cost with the American public! Like, I would love to see the Democrats saying, "Okay, you want a war? Which agency is going to start issuing ration cards and switch our factories from producing luxury goods to producing war material? I'm just trying to SHARE PATRIOTISM and BE FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE here!"
posted by corb at 10:41 AM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
I constantly wibble between anger and confusion on why Democrats don't ever seem to seize the opportunity to make wars not free for the majority of the American public. Wars are monstrously expensive! We even have a precedent of sharing that cost with the American public! Like, I would love to see the Democrats saying, "Okay, you want a war? Which agency is going to start issuing ration cards and switch our factories from producing luxury goods to producing war material? I'm just trying to SHARE PATRIOTISM and BE FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE here!"
posted by corb at 10:41 AM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
because the best way to do that would be to reinstate the draft?
posted by angrycat at 10:43 AM on December 28, 2016
posted by angrycat at 10:43 AM on December 28, 2016
A big part of the problem there is our war industry doesn't really -wind down- any more, Corb. I mean, there's a LOT of money in that ol' military-industrial complex, and it doesn't show much signs of stopping.
posted by Archelaus at 10:45 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Archelaus at 10:45 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I mean, there's a LOT of money in that ol' military-industrial complex
How much? Do they say now? Wait til the tweetin' turdfungus finds out how much more he could have made as a defense contractor.
posted by petebest at 10:51 AM on December 28, 2016
How much? Do they say now? Wait til the tweetin' turdfungus finds out how much more he could have made as a defense contractor.
posted by petebest at 10:51 AM on December 28, 2016
Paul Krugman: Greed Springs Eternal
To belabor what should be obvious: either the wealthy care about having more money or they don’t. If lower marginal tax rates are an incentive to produce more, the prospect of personal gain is an incentive to engage in corrupt practices. You can’t go all Ayn Rand/Gordon Gekko on the importance of greed as a motivator while claiming that wealth insulates a man from temptation.posted by tonycpsu at 10:53 AM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
Now, for what it’s worth, the reality is clearly that even the insanely wealthy generally want more. You can ask why they want it; the hedonistic pleasures of luxury must surely top out at a tiny fraction of what the average Trump nominee is worth. Gold-plated toilets don’t flush any better than the usual kind. But for such people, money is about ego, power, winning the game. Greed has no limit.
But what’s more interesting and revealing, I think, is the way people like Kudlow for whom incentives are supposedly all suddenly say something completely different when it comes to conflicts of interest.
The Democratic Party could wedge the military vote by proposing a re-enstatement of the draft,
Nooope. Servicemembers tend to think that the military is pretty damn good as is, and they don't particularly want to bring a bunch of people in who don't want to be there.
posted by Etrigan at 10:58 AM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Nooope. Servicemembers tend to think that the military is pretty damn good as is, and they don't particularly want to bring a bunch of people in who don't want to be there.
posted by Etrigan at 10:58 AM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Heather Digby Parton, Salon: Cowardly lions on parade: One after the other, anti-Trump Republicans have fallen in line behind the Great Leader
He didn’t just speak ill of them. He went after them like a 12-year-old bully in the lunchroom. Of Carly Fiorina he said “Look at that face! Would anyone vote for that? Can you imagine that, the face of our next president?” He laughed at Chris Christie saying he “acted like a little child” when President Obama came to help with Hurricane Sandy. He called Marco Rubio “little Marco” and Jeb Bush “low-energy.” He claimed that Ben Carson had a pathological temper and compared him to child molesters. He called Rand Paul ugly and said that he didn’t get his father’s appealing genes. At one of his rallies he claimed Lindsey Graham was “one of the dumbest human beings I have ever seen” and sent a tweet demanding that Graham “respect” him. He said Rick Perry should have to take an IQ test before being allowed into the debates. He said the way John Kasich eats is “disgusting,” and wondered whether people wanted that in a president.posted by tonycpsu at 11:00 AM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
[...]
But the saddest of all the Republican supplicants is Cruz, the man who actually took a brave stand before the whole country when he appeared at the Republican National Convention and refused to endorse the nominee. That took guts and many of us thought it showed that Cruz either had more integrity than we thought or that he had wisely surmised that Trump was going to destroy the party and he would be there to revive it as the one true conservative.
But Cruz bailed along with the rest of them. He eventually endorsed Trump and is back to trolling as only he can. The man who nearly single-handedly shut down the government is warning that Democrats will become “obstructionists at a level we’ve never seen” because they’ve been “radicalized.” He is positioning himself as Trump’s Senate defender, the man who will fight the crazy lefties on his behalf. If he plays his cards right, the talk is that he might even get the nod for a Supreme Court appointment, which would be a smart move. He’d be a shoo-in since all his Senate colleagues would do anything to get rid of him.
Justice Ted Cruz. Jesus wept.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:01 AM on December 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:01 AM on December 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
The draft is so citizens have skin in the war making game. The idea is the half measure war mongering the Democratic Party takes part in might be better served going all in. You re-enstate the draft so the wars are more present domestically, and you tighten the war making powers of the president so they have to get congressional approval for every action again.
Since Vietnam, presidents have a window where they can war monger as much as they like. Sometimes presidents need money for their wars, and that's the only check, and as we've seen, congress is a callow bunch. If it's made explicit that we have to declare war to wage war again, it may be enough to push the balance of power between the president and congress back to a point where it at least looks nominally like a democracy again.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 11:08 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Since Vietnam, presidents have a window where they can war monger as much as they like. Sometimes presidents need money for their wars, and that's the only check, and as we've seen, congress is a callow bunch. If it's made explicit that we have to declare war to wage war again, it may be enough to push the balance of power between the president and congress back to a point where it at least looks nominally like a democracy again.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 11:08 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I agree with both Etrigan and Strange_Robinson. Current military members aren't going to like the draft - they never have and are unlikely to ever like draftees - people who don't want to be there do not, on the whole, make the best soldiers. The draft is also of dubious morality - it forces people to serve by virtue of them being born in the country. It's not even 'service ensures citizenship', because people don't get the choice of whether to volunteer or not.
At the same time, the American people need to be tied back to the cost of war, so that wars become the unpopular issues of last resort there must be. I don't think it's a coincidence that the longest and most expensive war the United States has ever fought in was fought with an "all-volunteer" force and largely hidden costs.
posted by corb at 11:12 AM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
At the same time, the American people need to be tied back to the cost of war, so that wars become the unpopular issues of last resort there must be. I don't think it's a coincidence that the longest and most expensive war the United States has ever fought in was fought with an "all-volunteer" force and largely hidden costs.
posted by corb at 11:12 AM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
If he plays his cards right, the talk is that he might even get the nod for a Supreme Court appointment, which would be a smart move. He’d be a shoo-in since all his Senate colleagues would do anything to get rid of him.
......and this is the thing that would finally motivate me to move overseas. Fucking terrifying.
posted by AFABulous at 11:17 AM on December 28, 2016
......and this is the thing that would finally motivate me to move overseas. Fucking terrifying.
posted by AFABulous at 11:17 AM on December 28, 2016
Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
Why would Israel embrace and trust to protect them a party backed by and containing neo-Nazis.
posted by chris24 at 11:18 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why would Israel embrace and trust to protect them a party backed by and containing neo-Nazis.
posted by chris24 at 11:18 AM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
With or without the draft, Congress has intentionally ceded its Constitutionally-prescribed warmaking power to the President over the years. The draft is neither necessary nor sufficient for Congress to get back into the declaring war business -- they just have to do their job. Getting them to use their existing powers is a prerequisite to any serious possibility of conscription in the modern era when such a small fraction of our population serves.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:20 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 11:20 AM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
What Kerry said is true, but you can't create a 2-state solution without the active participation of the Palestinians. Decreeing it via UN Resolutions won't do it. Both sides need to come to the table, and be ready to make some sacrifices in what they want to get what they need. Getting them to that table was part of Kerry's job, but it either wasn't a priority for Obama, or it wasn't possible. If the latter, then a statement like that reads as: if you need a 2-state solution for your survival as a Jewish democracy, you have to stop acting like there is only 1 state. And I think most Israelis would be 100% on board with that. Demographically alone, the current situation can only last so much longer. There has to be a 2-state solution.
But for all the people on the right arguing for a 1-state solution that's basically status quo, and too bad, so sad if you're Palestinian, there are still plenty of people on the left advocating for a 1-state solution where Jews have no country, where the land goes back to Arab governance because they're the majority (the thing about being a persecuted minority group is, you're always a minority and someone else will always have the numbers). And I think the bulk of Israelis, offered that version of a 1-state solution, would prefer to surrender being a real democracy to losing a homeland. Especially with so many new immigrants arriving fleeing persecution as the rest of the world embraces anti-semitism as part of their nationalism.
I've found Metafilter leans pretty heavily anti-religious, and the conversation here flows better when talking about personal safety rather than about beliefs. But Judaism isn't just an ethnicity. It is a religion, and a lot of its non-Israeli adherents are here in America. And while most of the Jews here seem to self-identify as "culturally Jewish" - there are lots of religious Jews in the US who have Israel on their short list of where to go if things here trend toward violence, not just because it's expedient, but because Jerusalem is in our prayers and at our seders and in the sound of the breaking glass under our chuppahs -- and I'm not talking just about Orthodox Jews. This is the CCAR's statement about the last UN Resolution. That's the Reform Movement's rabbinic organization - you're not going to find a more committed bunch of religious lefties.
My point is that a lot of Jews feel trapped in the middle right now. On the right are actual Nazis, we know they're there, they've always been there, it's just really shocking how many and how vocal they suddenly are. But on the left are people who insist that "you can believe that Israel has no right to exist and not be an anti-semite." Who either don't or won't believe that if Israel suddenly ceased to exist as a Jewish state there wouldn't be a bloodbath. Or who believe that killing Jews over Israel isn't anti-semitic, it's just anti-Zionist, and therefore okay.
One of the things Trump is doing super-effectively is throwing shit bombs that divide people who were otherwise united. There are so many layers of divisiveness, and it seems like we're clutching our own buckets extra hard each time we're personally offended by the latest slurry - as a woman, as an immigrant, as a trans person, as someone with a disability, as a Jew, whatever it is. But the flip side is, I do think that "stronger together" was a phenomenal rallying cry, and I'm seeing so many ways it's being demonstrated - including Jewish-Muslim groups organizing now that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. I know this is long and may get deleted because I/P, but I am hoping that we can find more ways to "yes and" here instead of seeing it as "Trump says X, therefore Y must be no good" - because sometimes Trump's X doesn't mean 'the opposite of Y'. Sometimes it means 'fuck people who think X is nuanced.' He is daring us to take sides and see everything as black or white. But you can be against Israel's settlement policy and still see that resolution as a bad idea. I'm using Kerry and Israel as an example because it's topical and matters to me, but you can pick any issue we've been infighting here about. You can believe in Taiwanese self-determination, even though you know that we don't want to fuck with China about it until you can find a way through diplomacy. You can say Hillary needed to spend more time with WWC without letting go of intersectionality. It's not an embrace of Trump or what he stands for. It's saying the grownups are still out there. And we're working together.
Grey area isn't an easy solid thing to build a coalition around. That's one of our problems as liberals - we see that the world is complicated and we're trying to allow for outliers. We may be doomed because of it. When Trump insists there's only black and white, and we have to choose one, it's so fucking compelling to choose and draw that line. But I think the fact that he's this unpopular means that purple America really is there and looking for an alternative. We have to stop taking the bait.
posted by Mchelly at 11:27 AM on December 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
But for all the people on the right arguing for a 1-state solution that's basically status quo, and too bad, so sad if you're Palestinian, there are still plenty of people on the left advocating for a 1-state solution where Jews have no country, where the land goes back to Arab governance because they're the majority (the thing about being a persecuted minority group is, you're always a minority and someone else will always have the numbers). And I think the bulk of Israelis, offered that version of a 1-state solution, would prefer to surrender being a real democracy to losing a homeland. Especially with so many new immigrants arriving fleeing persecution as the rest of the world embraces anti-semitism as part of their nationalism.
I've found Metafilter leans pretty heavily anti-religious, and the conversation here flows better when talking about personal safety rather than about beliefs. But Judaism isn't just an ethnicity. It is a religion, and a lot of its non-Israeli adherents are here in America. And while most of the Jews here seem to self-identify as "culturally Jewish" - there are lots of religious Jews in the US who have Israel on their short list of where to go if things here trend toward violence, not just because it's expedient, but because Jerusalem is in our prayers and at our seders and in the sound of the breaking glass under our chuppahs -- and I'm not talking just about Orthodox Jews. This is the CCAR's statement about the last UN Resolution. That's the Reform Movement's rabbinic organization - you're not going to find a more committed bunch of religious lefties.
My point is that a lot of Jews feel trapped in the middle right now. On the right are actual Nazis, we know they're there, they've always been there, it's just really shocking how many and how vocal they suddenly are. But on the left are people who insist that "you can believe that Israel has no right to exist and not be an anti-semite." Who either don't or won't believe that if Israel suddenly ceased to exist as a Jewish state there wouldn't be a bloodbath. Or who believe that killing Jews over Israel isn't anti-semitic, it's just anti-Zionist, and therefore okay.
One of the things Trump is doing super-effectively is throwing shit bombs that divide people who were otherwise united. There are so many layers of divisiveness, and it seems like we're clutching our own buckets extra hard each time we're personally offended by the latest slurry - as a woman, as an immigrant, as a trans person, as someone with a disability, as a Jew, whatever it is. But the flip side is, I do think that "stronger together" was a phenomenal rallying cry, and I'm seeing so many ways it's being demonstrated - including Jewish-Muslim groups organizing now that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. I know this is long and may get deleted because I/P, but I am hoping that we can find more ways to "yes and" here instead of seeing it as "Trump says X, therefore Y must be no good" - because sometimes Trump's X doesn't mean 'the opposite of Y'. Sometimes it means 'fuck people who think X is nuanced.' He is daring us to take sides and see everything as black or white. But you can be against Israel's settlement policy and still see that resolution as a bad idea. I'm using Kerry and Israel as an example because it's topical and matters to me, but you can pick any issue we've been infighting here about. You can believe in Taiwanese self-determination, even though you know that we don't want to fuck with China about it until you can find a way through diplomacy. You can say Hillary needed to spend more time with WWC without letting go of intersectionality. It's not an embrace of Trump or what he stands for. It's saying the grownups are still out there. And we're working together.
Grey area isn't an easy solid thing to build a coalition around. That's one of our problems as liberals - we see that the world is complicated and we're trying to allow for outliers. We may be doomed because of it. When Trump insists there's only black and white, and we have to choose one, it's so fucking compelling to choose and draw that line. But I think the fact that he's this unpopular means that purple America really is there and looking for an alternative. We have to stop taking the bait.
posted by Mchelly at 11:27 AM on December 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
The US hasn't issued a formal declaration of war since it declared war on Bulgaria, Hungary, and Romania on June 5, 1942.
Congress has authorized military engagements since the 1798-1800 Quasi-War against France. (The US stopped paying its debts from the American Revolution to France after the French Revolution, claiming that the debt was owed to the Ancien Régime government, not to the French First Republic.)
And yes, fatalities in this war were only quasi-dead.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:32 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Congress has authorized military engagements since the 1798-1800 Quasi-War against France. (The US stopped paying its debts from the American Revolution to France after the French Revolution, claiming that the debt was owed to the Ancien Régime government, not to the French First Republic.)
And yes, fatalities in this war were only quasi-dead.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:32 AM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Brak: I think people have lost the ability to truly discern reality from fiction, as presented in some form of mass media—i.e. something not going on explicitly under their physical noses, so to speak. Our brains have been saturated with so much content over time that has blurred these distinctions, that our capacity for critical assessment of real vs. fiction has been compromised.
This is absolutely what's happened, and continues to happen, and some very thoughtful people have been warning about this state, called 'hyperreality', for decades (in fact, currently preparing a 3-episode arc for our podcast about exactly this, hence the length of comment below). Adorno laid some conceptual groundwork here, but I think that Marshall McLuhan, and later Neil Postman, repeatedly asserted one of the most important observations of our age: that any intermediation of information, communication, or experience shapes an individual's mind more substantially and fundamentally than any specific information received through that intermediation. Jean Baudrillard, along with Postman, Daniel Boorstin, and others, identified and named hyperreality, a state of consciousness that you, Brak, describe above, and that I believe is dangerously pervasive (and unacknowledged) today.
To put it in a sentence, what I think happened in this election, and has been brewing for decades, is that people are trying to reify hyperreality. While the social, racial, financial, etc., stresses and enmities people are experiencing are very real, I remain unpersuaded by those as the primary motivation for Trump voters, because voters in many places that went for Trump consistently reject workable, practical solutions to their own problems and vote against their self-interest instead. The explanations for this are variously named as propaganda, identity politics, racism, and so on, but it seems to me that, more precisely, those were used as means to manipulate the profound vulnerability inherent to a state of hyperreality--otherization and scapegoating have very useful emotional triggers and hooks--which is that, at a basic level, if your mind is unsure what is real and what is not, what is true and what is not, what actually happened and what you only saw happen very vividly on video, then you are very persuadable to a false narrative. I think that the Trump campaign team (specifically, Kushner and Bannon) completely understood this, and capitalized on it with the next logical step: call people to action based on the narrative you have created. (Previously in human history, reality would painfully assert itself to correct ignorance or magical thinking; but now we live in a hyperreal world, where billions of people's moment-to-moment sense of reality, our understanding and experience of the world, is technologically mediated, and reality is having a hard time being heard. I am asserting that this is a profound danger to our species and world, and that we need to wake up, quickly.)
This is how a collective state of hyperreality is successfully leveraged: create sufficient confusion about what happened and who is responsible by playing on all the easy ways to do so, and push a ton of media content that reinforces your narrative in as many ways as possible, (easily) convincing a large number of people that they actually inhabit the imaginary place you have described to them. Then, call them to action in response to the narrative you have convinced them is real, and what used to be mere ignorance is thus weaponized, because in our induced state of hyperreality cause is no longer coupled to effect, actions no longer need to follow reasons, and we don't even care that there is a difference between truth and fiction or fact and falsehood.
The important difference now, even from a few years ago, is that our technologies of intermediation--those tools and gadgets that allow us to both honestly inform and deceitfully manipulate one another from afar--have become so sophisticated, and our daily habits so completely immerse us in them, that the state and experience of hyperreality has reached a critical, unsustainable point. This is what Baudrillard in particular was trying to highlight, that as various media become more sophisticated, the artificial realities that they induce in our imaginations become more rich and vivid, which presents an ongoing stress and challenge to an individual's consciousness because our brains have not adapted to these media, and lack the ability to distinguish between a compelling fiction and objective reality. (The Matrix is not only a simple existential or spiritual parable. Rewatch, and consider what it says about our actual world, and how we actually are, right now.) Our brains genuinely struggle to differentiate between empirical reality, which is demonstrably shared, and intermediated reality, where narrative reigns supreme and emotions and appearances can be manipulated endlessly, and which may or may not bear any connection to truth or objective reality as one might reasonably define it.
It's why Trump voters don't listen to his actual words, or think they intuit a deeper truth to his stupid, bullshit gibberish-speak: they believe that their imagined version of him is real, or can be made real by thinking it so. They believe the utterly fake, heavily-edited-and-produced, fictional television character named Donald Trump (played by actual Donald Trump) to be a real person, and they voted for that guy. And it's not just them, it's all of us: even in this thread, many continue to think and believe that there is some sort of structure to prevent a lunatic president from launching a nuclear first strike: it's how we imagine it should be, it's how TV told us the world is.
A very large critical mass of us are utterly lost in hyperreality, and until we notice and attend to this my sense is that the world will continue to spiral into nonsense. Nearly all of our communication with, information about, and experience of other people and the world is mediated in some way, and we spend very little time attending to unmediated experience. EVEN RIGHT NOW, you and I are having this 'conversation' via intermediation, and this form and format shapes what I say and how I say it far more than my own thoughts and feelings and communication skill. (And even there, I poked at the hyperreality of this conversation by writing 'you and I' rather than 'we,' because how many of you imagine this forum as a round table, group conversation? how many imagine it as a mixed room having a general conversation but with one-on-one asides? how many imagine it as eavesdropping or maybe reading a panel discussion? Not only does the mode of intermediation influence things profoundly, how you imagine the aspects that the intermediation does not provide, how you fill in the blanks of a mediated experience, will influence your perceptions and thoughts, as well.)
So yeah. I've been silent in the post-election threads until now, mostly just having my emotions and feelings (and still reading and keeping up and pouring gratitude towards all of you, continually) but also trying to make some sense of the nonsense that just happened--and that was a key insight for me: it's nonsense. This should not have happened in the world we inhabit, but it did, and so we have to make sense from nonsense. Yes, people have "reasons" to explain their behavior, but when examined they're more properly called "rationales," because they don't stand up to objective, informed scrutiny. So I sort of accepted the nonsense as nonsense (like, OK, your reasons for voting for Trump make no sense, but I accept that they're real and true for you), and to me that left the question of how the nonsense came to be, and is held to so tightly. How is that possible? How does a thoughtful person (and I unfortunately know some very thoughtful, highly-educated, well-informed Trump voters) convince themselves so completely of a false narrative? And in a world where it is easier than ever before to put the lie to a false narrative??
My answer so far is that if someone's reasons for a position/vote/etc. are not factually true, and efforts to correct or inform instead cause entrenchment in the original position, then the problem is not political (or intellectual or racial or social or etc.); it is one of sense and shared reality. If accurate information, communicated in a neutral way, is rejected because of emotional response, the problem is that we have created a culture, and conditioned ourselves into a place, where truth and facts don't matter because how we feel--our subjective, personal, experiential reality--is more important than anything else. And, sure enough, there is a clear, well-established and explored explanation for how this came to be, a mechanism that causes this to happen and persist. I think that hyperreality is dangerously pervasive (I suffer from it myself), and our current habits of trying to reify our various subjective, biased, emotional realities will lead to much more terrifying outcomes if we cannot collectively wake up, and start attending to the real world (which is, um, kind of falling apart).
posted by LooseFilter at 11:40 AM on December 28, 2016 [132 favorites]
This is absolutely what's happened, and continues to happen, and some very thoughtful people have been warning about this state, called 'hyperreality', for decades (in fact, currently preparing a 3-episode arc for our podcast about exactly this, hence the length of comment below). Adorno laid some conceptual groundwork here, but I think that Marshall McLuhan, and later Neil Postman, repeatedly asserted one of the most important observations of our age: that any intermediation of information, communication, or experience shapes an individual's mind more substantially and fundamentally than any specific information received through that intermediation. Jean Baudrillard, along with Postman, Daniel Boorstin, and others, identified and named hyperreality, a state of consciousness that you, Brak, describe above, and that I believe is dangerously pervasive (and unacknowledged) today.
To put it in a sentence, what I think happened in this election, and has been brewing for decades, is that people are trying to reify hyperreality. While the social, racial, financial, etc., stresses and enmities people are experiencing are very real, I remain unpersuaded by those as the primary motivation for Trump voters, because voters in many places that went for Trump consistently reject workable, practical solutions to their own problems and vote against their self-interest instead. The explanations for this are variously named as propaganda, identity politics, racism, and so on, but it seems to me that, more precisely, those were used as means to manipulate the profound vulnerability inherent to a state of hyperreality--otherization and scapegoating have very useful emotional triggers and hooks--which is that, at a basic level, if your mind is unsure what is real and what is not, what is true and what is not, what actually happened and what you only saw happen very vividly on video, then you are very persuadable to a false narrative. I think that the Trump campaign team (specifically, Kushner and Bannon) completely understood this, and capitalized on it with the next logical step: call people to action based on the narrative you have created. (Previously in human history, reality would painfully assert itself to correct ignorance or magical thinking; but now we live in a hyperreal world, where billions of people's moment-to-moment sense of reality, our understanding and experience of the world, is technologically mediated, and reality is having a hard time being heard. I am asserting that this is a profound danger to our species and world, and that we need to wake up, quickly.)
This is how a collective state of hyperreality is successfully leveraged: create sufficient confusion about what happened and who is responsible by playing on all the easy ways to do so, and push a ton of media content that reinforces your narrative in as many ways as possible, (easily) convincing a large number of people that they actually inhabit the imaginary place you have described to them. Then, call them to action in response to the narrative you have convinced them is real, and what used to be mere ignorance is thus weaponized, because in our induced state of hyperreality cause is no longer coupled to effect, actions no longer need to follow reasons, and we don't even care that there is a difference between truth and fiction or fact and falsehood.
The important difference now, even from a few years ago, is that our technologies of intermediation--those tools and gadgets that allow us to both honestly inform and deceitfully manipulate one another from afar--have become so sophisticated, and our daily habits so completely immerse us in them, that the state and experience of hyperreality has reached a critical, unsustainable point. This is what Baudrillard in particular was trying to highlight, that as various media become more sophisticated, the artificial realities that they induce in our imaginations become more rich and vivid, which presents an ongoing stress and challenge to an individual's consciousness because our brains have not adapted to these media, and lack the ability to distinguish between a compelling fiction and objective reality. (The Matrix is not only a simple existential or spiritual parable. Rewatch, and consider what it says about our actual world, and how we actually are, right now.) Our brains genuinely struggle to differentiate between empirical reality, which is demonstrably shared, and intermediated reality, where narrative reigns supreme and emotions and appearances can be manipulated endlessly, and which may or may not bear any connection to truth or objective reality as one might reasonably define it.
It's why Trump voters don't listen to his actual words, or think they intuit a deeper truth to his stupid, bullshit gibberish-speak: they believe that their imagined version of him is real, or can be made real by thinking it so. They believe the utterly fake, heavily-edited-and-produced, fictional television character named Donald Trump (played by actual Donald Trump) to be a real person, and they voted for that guy. And it's not just them, it's all of us: even in this thread, many continue to think and believe that there is some sort of structure to prevent a lunatic president from launching a nuclear first strike: it's how we imagine it should be, it's how TV told us the world is.
A very large critical mass of us are utterly lost in hyperreality, and until we notice and attend to this my sense is that the world will continue to spiral into nonsense. Nearly all of our communication with, information about, and experience of other people and the world is mediated in some way, and we spend very little time attending to unmediated experience. EVEN RIGHT NOW, you and I are having this 'conversation' via intermediation, and this form and format shapes what I say and how I say it far more than my own thoughts and feelings and communication skill. (And even there, I poked at the hyperreality of this conversation by writing 'you and I' rather than 'we,' because how many of you imagine this forum as a round table, group conversation? how many imagine it as a mixed room having a general conversation but with one-on-one asides? how many imagine it as eavesdropping or maybe reading a panel discussion? Not only does the mode of intermediation influence things profoundly, how you imagine the aspects that the intermediation does not provide, how you fill in the blanks of a mediated experience, will influence your perceptions and thoughts, as well.)
So yeah. I've been silent in the post-election threads until now, mostly just having my emotions and feelings (and still reading and keeping up and pouring gratitude towards all of you, continually) but also trying to make some sense of the nonsense that just happened--and that was a key insight for me: it's nonsense. This should not have happened in the world we inhabit, but it did, and so we have to make sense from nonsense. Yes, people have "reasons" to explain their behavior, but when examined they're more properly called "rationales," because they don't stand up to objective, informed scrutiny. So I sort of accepted the nonsense as nonsense (like, OK, your reasons for voting for Trump make no sense, but I accept that they're real and true for you), and to me that left the question of how the nonsense came to be, and is held to so tightly. How is that possible? How does a thoughtful person (and I unfortunately know some very thoughtful, highly-educated, well-informed Trump voters) convince themselves so completely of a false narrative? And in a world where it is easier than ever before to put the lie to a false narrative??
My answer so far is that if someone's reasons for a position/vote/etc. are not factually true, and efforts to correct or inform instead cause entrenchment in the original position, then the problem is not political (or intellectual or racial or social or etc.); it is one of sense and shared reality. If accurate information, communicated in a neutral way, is rejected because of emotional response, the problem is that we have created a culture, and conditioned ourselves into a place, where truth and facts don't matter because how we feel--our subjective, personal, experiential reality--is more important than anything else. And, sure enough, there is a clear, well-established and explored explanation for how this came to be, a mechanism that causes this to happen and persist. I think that hyperreality is dangerously pervasive (I suffer from it myself), and our current habits of trying to reify our various subjective, biased, emotional realities will lead to much more terrifying outcomes if we cannot collectively wake up, and start attending to the real world (which is, um, kind of falling apart).
posted by LooseFilter at 11:40 AM on December 28, 2016 [132 favorites]
Abstaining from the UN resolution has nothing to do with taking Trump's bait, which I agree is something the left will have to get at resisting. The movement to allow a non-binding resolution to pass was building for months before the election. Of course Trump is going to take political advantage of it, but that in and of itself is not a good reason for the current government to change their stance.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:42 AM on December 28, 2016
posted by tonycpsu at 11:42 AM on December 28, 2016
Mod note: comment removed - if you've got a factual point to make, it's better without the personal attacks
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
tonycpsu, I hear you. And I wasn't talking about what Obama did, as much as I was talking about our reaction to people's reactions to what he did. The majority of religious Jews of all denominations disagreed with that policy, and we are - largely - voting liberals. But if we say this is bad policy, we're seen as being pro-Trump. Or dangerous fundamentalists who care more about actual Nazis than we do about the Palestinians. And that's a problem.
I was terrified posting my comment, because I know I said some things that some people here will disagree with, and I know when that happens (maybe especially in the election threads) it can turn into a pile-on so that the person with the outlying No True Liberal views is made to viscerally feel the error of her ways, but I also think it's worth the risk because the circular firing squad is real, it hurts, and it sets us back. But we need to look forward, and the only thing the Republicans have right now that we haven't got is cohesiveness. We have better command of the facts, better ideas (even when they are at odds with each other), a better vision of what America can be and stands for.
The thing Hillary was known for doing best was listening. I am willing to believe she didn't do enough of that, in areas where she thought she was. And that the troglodyte deplorables whom she would have needed to listen to weren't worth taking the time over. But we have to stop attacking each other to try to achieve purity when we start to disagree. We have to find ways to work together even when we disagree. That's what I was getting at.
posted by Mchelly at 11:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I was terrified posting my comment, because I know I said some things that some people here will disagree with, and I know when that happens (maybe especially in the election threads) it can turn into a pile-on so that the person with the outlying No True Liberal views is made to viscerally feel the error of her ways, but I also think it's worth the risk because the circular firing squad is real, it hurts, and it sets us back. But we need to look forward, and the only thing the Republicans have right now that we haven't got is cohesiveness. We have better command of the facts, better ideas (even when they are at odds with each other), a better vision of what America can be and stands for.
The thing Hillary was known for doing best was listening. I am willing to believe she didn't do enough of that, in areas where she thought she was. And that the troglodyte deplorables whom she would have needed to listen to weren't worth taking the time over. But we have to stop attacking each other to try to achieve purity when we start to disagree. We have to find ways to work together even when we disagree. That's what I was getting at.
posted by Mchelly at 11:56 AM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
(I should add to my above comment, that hypernormalization--as identified and articulated by Adam Curtis in his recent documentary--is a key psychological component enabling attempts to reify hyperreality on a large scale. I'm not sure that my overarching theory here holds up, but I am confident that it's important to look past the specific nonsense to first understand how it is that people are so defiantly and willfully clinging to ignorance, false narratives, and the like. How is it that our world came to be so knowingly and aggressively stupid, and continues to become moreso? I think the answers to those questions, understanding the mechanisms at play here, will point us to much more successful courses of action in response to all this awfulness and really terrible collective decision-making.)
posted by LooseFilter at 11:58 AM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 11:58 AM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
it is difficult, for example, politically, for the Democrats to support extraordinarily generous benefits to a population which generally votes against them
The Post-9/11 Veterans Educational Assistance Act of 2008 cited as so generous was written by Democratic Senator Jim Webb and pushed through Congress by Democrats. Republicans, including G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain opposed the bill because they argued that because of personnel shortages due to their war in Iraq, they needed to make it less attractive to leave the service, not more. Senator Barack Obama voted for the bill. Saint McCain did not. Republicans, after strongly opposing the bill, finally consented late in 2008 as they worried about the upcoming election.
The idea that Republicans care one goddam about veterans beyond putting a magnetic yellow ribbon on their bumper is laughable. Tax cuts for the rich will always take priority over benefits for veterans.
For example:
In 2010, Republicans killed the Homeless Women Veterans and Homeless Veterans With Children Act. It would have expanded assistance for homeless women veterans and homeless veterans with children and increase funding for federal grant programs to address the issues surrounding homelessness amongst veterans. Republican Senator Tom Coburn said "If we don’t start paying for new programs and continue on our path to bankruptcy we’ll have a homelessness problem beyond imagination. The old Washington excuse that it’s too hard to cut spending is undermining our troops, our veterans and our future." In other words, we have to keep veterans homeless or else we will have more homeless. Helping homeless veterans is undermining our troops.
In 2012, Republicans killed the Veterans Jobs Corps Act because they said American couldn't afford it. At the same time they were pushing for tax cuts for the rich. “We Republicans remain resolute in our commitment to deny the Democrats anything that looks like an accomplishment in an election year,” said Republican leader Mitch McConnell. In other words, Republicans needed to shove veterans under the bus in order to make Obama look bad.
In 2014, Republicans killed the Veterans Health and Benefits and Military Retirement Pay Restoration Act proposed by Bernie Sanders because they wanted to include unrelated provisions regarding Iran. Republicans voted 41 out of 45 against.
In 2014, Republicans killed the Women Veterans and Families Health Services Act proposed by Democratic Senator Patty Murray. The bill would have provided fertility treatment and counseling for severely wounded veterans and their spouses. Republicans killed it because of possible involvement of Planned Parenthood.
In 2015, Republicans on the Appropriations Committee moved to cut $1.4 billion in veterans services from Obama's budget proposal.
Meanwhile, as Republicans pushed to stiff veterans, Obama managed in spite of obstruction to:
Create a 'Green Vet Initiative' to promote environmental jobs for veterans.
Dedicate more resources to fight employment discrimination against military reservists (that's one of those executive orders ranted about).
Expand housing vouchers program for homeless veterans.
Expand the number of centers of excellence for Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), PTSD, vision impairment, prosthetics, spinal cord injury, aging, women's health and other specialized rehabilitative care.
As one of his first acts as president, Obama signed an executive order ending the unfair ban on healthcare enrollment of certain groups of veterans, including 'Priority 8' veterans who often earn modest incomes. Previously, veterans who had no service-connected disability and make above a certain amount of income were not allowed to enroll in the VA health program. (again one of those hated executive orders)
Expanded Vet Centers in rural areas so that veterans and their families can get the care they need where they live.
Increased the Veterans Administration budget to recruit and retain more mental health professionals
Why veterans favor Republicans over Democrats when Republicans treat them like absolute shit when it comes time to actually pay for benefits is a mystery.
The notion that "it is difficult for the Democrats to support extraordinarily generous benefits to a population which generally votes against them" is pure unadulterated bullshit.
posted by JackFlash at 12:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [65 favorites]
The Post-9/11 Veterans Educational Assistance Act of 2008 cited as so generous was written by Democratic Senator Jim Webb and pushed through Congress by Democrats. Republicans, including G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain opposed the bill because they argued that because of personnel shortages due to their war in Iraq, they needed to make it less attractive to leave the service, not more. Senator Barack Obama voted for the bill. Saint McCain did not. Republicans, after strongly opposing the bill, finally consented late in 2008 as they worried about the upcoming election.
The idea that Republicans care one goddam about veterans beyond putting a magnetic yellow ribbon on their bumper is laughable. Tax cuts for the rich will always take priority over benefits for veterans.
For example:
In 2010, Republicans killed the Homeless Women Veterans and Homeless Veterans With Children Act. It would have expanded assistance for homeless women veterans and homeless veterans with children and increase funding for federal grant programs to address the issues surrounding homelessness amongst veterans. Republican Senator Tom Coburn said "If we don’t start paying for new programs and continue on our path to bankruptcy we’ll have a homelessness problem beyond imagination. The old Washington excuse that it’s too hard to cut spending is undermining our troops, our veterans and our future." In other words, we have to keep veterans homeless or else we will have more homeless. Helping homeless veterans is undermining our troops.
In 2012, Republicans killed the Veterans Jobs Corps Act because they said American couldn't afford it. At the same time they were pushing for tax cuts for the rich. “We Republicans remain resolute in our commitment to deny the Democrats anything that looks like an accomplishment in an election year,” said Republican leader Mitch McConnell. In other words, Republicans needed to shove veterans under the bus in order to make Obama look bad.
In 2014, Republicans killed the Veterans Health and Benefits and Military Retirement Pay Restoration Act proposed by Bernie Sanders because they wanted to include unrelated provisions regarding Iran. Republicans voted 41 out of 45 against.
In 2014, Republicans killed the Women Veterans and Families Health Services Act proposed by Democratic Senator Patty Murray. The bill would have provided fertility treatment and counseling for severely wounded veterans and their spouses. Republicans killed it because of possible involvement of Planned Parenthood.
In 2015, Republicans on the Appropriations Committee moved to cut $1.4 billion in veterans services from Obama's budget proposal.
Meanwhile, as Republicans pushed to stiff veterans, Obama managed in spite of obstruction to:
Create a 'Green Vet Initiative' to promote environmental jobs for veterans.
Dedicate more resources to fight employment discrimination against military reservists (that's one of those executive orders ranted about).
Expand housing vouchers program for homeless veterans.
Expand the number of centers of excellence for Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), PTSD, vision impairment, prosthetics, spinal cord injury, aging, women's health and other specialized rehabilitative care.
As one of his first acts as president, Obama signed an executive order ending the unfair ban on healthcare enrollment of certain groups of veterans, including 'Priority 8' veterans who often earn modest incomes. Previously, veterans who had no service-connected disability and make above a certain amount of income were not allowed to enroll in the VA health program. (again one of those hated executive orders)
Expanded Vet Centers in rural areas so that veterans and their families can get the care they need where they live.
Increased the Veterans Administration budget to recruit and retain more mental health professionals
Why veterans favor Republicans over Democrats when Republicans treat them like absolute shit when it comes time to actually pay for benefits is a mystery.
The notion that "it is difficult for the Democrats to support extraordinarily generous benefits to a population which generally votes against them" is pure unadulterated bullshit.
posted by JackFlash at 12:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [65 favorites]
> But if we say this is bad policy, we're seen as being pro-Trump.
Where are you seeing that sort of Manichean reaction?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where are you seeing that sort of Manichean reaction?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
You raise a really good point, LooseFilter, and it dovetailed really nicely with the Slactivist essay posted upthread this morning. Which seems to be positing that this is just another form of tribalism. So how can we transcend that?
posted by Mchelly at 12:02 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by Mchelly at 12:02 PM on December 28, 2016
Loosefilter:
What you have to say is fascinating. The one point I'd disagree with though, is the notion that this is *entirely* new. I think what we're seeing here is a lot like panics that happened in the past, especially like witch hunts. Due to natural cognitive bias, people are inclined to construct simple, comforting narratives both about the mechanisms that keep them safe in the world, and about who their enemies are. People are not, by and large, wired for nuance and muddy or incomplete solutions. This is why the Just World Fallacy is so persistent in human thought, and so on.
The main thing I see going on now versus, like, the Salem Witch Trials is the communication infrastructure that you're talking about - in the old days, you'd mostly get a *town* looking for witches or otherwise engaging in dangerous behavior in rejection of obvious external reality. It only scaled up to one big, angry mob at a time. Now? One guy with a Twitter account can get the whole world engaging in the same dynamic, and you are absolutely correct that our inability to unplug and dependence on mass communications are ramping up this dynamic in truly dangerous ways.
Anyway, thanks for your contribution, and I'm glad you spoke up because this is something we're going to have to figure out as a society if we don't want to be extinct. If it's not Trump, it'll still enable to the next Very Dangerous Thing, and the one after that, and so on.
posted by mordax at 12:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
What you have to say is fascinating. The one point I'd disagree with though, is the notion that this is *entirely* new. I think what we're seeing here is a lot like panics that happened in the past, especially like witch hunts. Due to natural cognitive bias, people are inclined to construct simple, comforting narratives both about the mechanisms that keep them safe in the world, and about who their enemies are. People are not, by and large, wired for nuance and muddy or incomplete solutions. This is why the Just World Fallacy is so persistent in human thought, and so on.
The main thing I see going on now versus, like, the Salem Witch Trials is the communication infrastructure that you're talking about - in the old days, you'd mostly get a *town* looking for witches or otherwise engaging in dangerous behavior in rejection of obvious external reality. It only scaled up to one big, angry mob at a time. Now? One guy with a Twitter account can get the whole world engaging in the same dynamic, and you are absolutely correct that our inability to unplug and dependence on mass communications are ramping up this dynamic in truly dangerous ways.
Anyway, thanks for your contribution, and I'm glad you spoke up because this is something we're going to have to figure out as a society if we don't want to be extinct. If it's not Trump, it'll still enable to the next Very Dangerous Thing, and the one after that, and so on.
posted by mordax at 12:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Ryan Cooper, The Week: The Republican plot to devour retirees' nest eggs
*Adds "balance billing" to the list of tactics Republicans are using to transfer money to the wealthy*
posted by tonycpsu at 12:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
*Adds "balance billing" to the list of tactics Republicans are using to transfer money to the wealthy*
posted by tonycpsu at 12:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
What's unprecedented about Netanyahu's behaviour during the Obama presidency is the extent to which Israeli diplomacy in DC has functioned on the plane of opposition domestic policy, not foreign policy, especially since the 2013 Knesset election. Appointing Ron Dermer as ambassador; arranging an address to a joint session of Congress without involving the White House; offering to share intelligence with the incoming administration as if it's partisan oppo research. There's sometimes a sense that Netanyahu and his key cabinet allies are more invested in being associate members of the GOP hierarchy than securing the long-term future of their own country. That's fundamentally unhealthy.
posted by holgate at 12:24 PM on December 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by holgate at 12:24 PM on December 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
[comment removed - if you've got a factual point to make, it's better without the personal attacks]
posted by jessamyn 31 minutes ago [+] [!]
Did they forget to take your keys when you retired?
posted by notyou at 12:29 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by jessamyn 31 minutes ago [+] [!]
Did they forget to take your keys when you retired?
posted by notyou at 12:29 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Did they forget to take your keys when you retired?
She's kindly filling in over the holidays so the mods can have a day off.
posted by Talez at 12:30 PM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
She's kindly filling in over the holidays so the mods can have a day off.
posted by Talez at 12:30 PM on December 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
"Forget" or just "not dare"?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Too late, this is now a jessamyn celebration thread.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:37 PM on December 28, 2016 [45 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:37 PM on December 28, 2016 [45 favorites]
I really must insist that people continue to argue about politics.
posted by jessamyn at 12:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [144 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 12:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [144 favorites]
GOP Blogger Gets 30 Day In Jail For Election Fraud
West Michigan politics blogger and Republican activist Brandon Hall is heading to jail for election law fraud after forging signatures on a candidate petition in 2012.
Ottawa Circuit Judge Ed Post on Tuesday sentenced Hall to 30 days in county jail, 18 months probation, 60 hours community service and $3,105 in fines and legal costs, according to a court spokesperson. He was taken into custody immediately
posted by futz at 12:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
West Michigan politics blogger and Republican activist Brandon Hall is heading to jail for election law fraud after forging signatures on a candidate petition in 2012.
Ottawa Circuit Judge Ed Post on Tuesday sentenced Hall to 30 days in county jail, 18 months probation, 60 hours community service and $3,105 in fines and legal costs, according to a court spokesperson. He was taken into custody immediately
posted by futz at 12:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I really must insist that people continue to argue about politics.
There is no shower hot enough to ever make you feel clean again.
posted by Talez at 12:39 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
There is no shower hot enough to ever make you feel clean again.
posted by Talez at 12:39 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Why veterans favor Republicans over Democrats when Republicans treat them like absolute shit when it comes time to actually pay for benefits is a mystery.
JackFlash, veterans benefits is kind of my jam. It's what I've worked on for the last - holy shit, nine - years of my life. So I could absolutely, point by point, talk about the fine details of veterans bills - who proposes them, who co-sponsors them, which veteran's organization signs on, which opposes them, who publicly supports them but stabs them in the back, who may have written the bill but publicly talks against it in a manner designed to fail, which personalities just won't work with each other, which bills get killed due to riders, etc etc, ad nauseum.
But that's not really what we're talking about here, which is: in the current political environment, how aggressively can Democrats afford to advocate for veterans having an automated entrance into a rapidly shrinking middle class?
Because what veterans, largely, want is essentially the "WWII promise" - that if they go to war, when they return, they will receive the thanks of a grateful nation and successful entrance into the middle class. While veterans tend to casually support any bill that helps or advances veterans, they're not jumping for joy over anti-homelessness stopgaps. The goal is not 'to not be homeless'. It's to own a house of their own and have a career (not just a job) of their own - things that are increasingly out of reach for average citizens, and that are now often out of reach for military members as well.
Democrats - God love them - propose a lot of bills to help veterans. They do, and I don't want to imply that they don't. But when they propose those bills, they often reflect their larger beliefs about who should receive help in American society. The bills are not usually "how can we benefits veterans as a class?" They are largely to help those veterans they see as the most disadvantaged - homeless veterans, sexual assault survivors, people in need of mental health care, veterans with bad discharges.
And that's why they are often perceived as not favoring veterans - because when they do propose bills to help veterans, those bills often seem like favoring the subgroups within veterans that tend to vote Democrat, not helping veterans on the whole.
posted by corb at 12:49 PM on December 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
JackFlash, veterans benefits is kind of my jam. It's what I've worked on for the last - holy shit, nine - years of my life. So I could absolutely, point by point, talk about the fine details of veterans bills - who proposes them, who co-sponsors them, which veteran's organization signs on, which opposes them, who publicly supports them but stabs them in the back, who may have written the bill but publicly talks against it in a manner designed to fail, which personalities just won't work with each other, which bills get killed due to riders, etc etc, ad nauseum.
But that's not really what we're talking about here, which is: in the current political environment, how aggressively can Democrats afford to advocate for veterans having an automated entrance into a rapidly shrinking middle class?
Because what veterans, largely, want is essentially the "WWII promise" - that if they go to war, when they return, they will receive the thanks of a grateful nation and successful entrance into the middle class. While veterans tend to casually support any bill that helps or advances veterans, they're not jumping for joy over anti-homelessness stopgaps. The goal is not 'to not be homeless'. It's to own a house of their own and have a career (not just a job) of their own - things that are increasingly out of reach for average citizens, and that are now often out of reach for military members as well.
Democrats - God love them - propose a lot of bills to help veterans. They do, and I don't want to imply that they don't. But when they propose those bills, they often reflect their larger beliefs about who should receive help in American society. The bills are not usually "how can we benefits veterans as a class?" They are largely to help those veterans they see as the most disadvantaged - homeless veterans, sexual assault survivors, people in need of mental health care, veterans with bad discharges.
And that's why they are often perceived as not favoring veterans - because when they do propose bills to help veterans, those bills often seem like favoring the subgroups within veterans that tend to vote Democrat, not helping veterans on the whole.
posted by corb at 12:49 PM on December 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
Corb: Democrats - God love them - propose a lot of bills to help veterans. They do, and I don't want to imply that they don't.
You just did.
Corb: it is difficult, for example, politically, for the Democrats to support extraordinarily generous benefits to a population which generally votes against them
posted by JackFlash at 12:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
You just did.
Corb: it is difficult, for example, politically, for the Democrats to support extraordinarily generous benefits to a population which generally votes against them
posted by JackFlash at 12:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Should have run, could have won. Still, there's always 2020...
posted by Wordshore at 12:55 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Wordshore at 12:55 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
voters in many places that went for Trump consistently reject workable, practical solutions to their own problems
Can you give some examples?
posted by Coventry at 12:57 PM on December 28, 2016
Can you give some examples?
posted by Coventry at 12:57 PM on December 28, 2016
Which seems to be positing that this is just another form of tribalism.
It's all nested and mutually influential, to be sure, but what I'm trying to describe is more subtle and fundamental than mere tribalism; I think that our innate instinct for tribalism is being exploited, but much more easily than ever before, and toward specific, personal ends. Trump and his team are a specific threat and must be responded to as such, because they will use tribalism and all sorts of other fear-mongering and otherization to get what they want, and they're really good at playing those old, familiar tunes.
BUT while that specific threat is horrible and must be faced, what I'm trying to say (and what mordax subsequently drew out) is that aspects of human nature like tribalism are tools and means that people have used to get power or wealth since there were people, but now, two things are different: how loudly people can speak, and how vulnerable we are to being lied to. A hundred or so years ago, a fascist had to stand on a dais and literally holler to be heard, and his propaganda and lies were only as believable as those who spread them, and were spread only as fast as voices or print could carry them. Eighty years ago, a fascist had a microphone and loudspeakers, and could speak in a conversational volume to 30,000 people, and use film to directly portray the version of reality he wanted people to believe, and amplify his personal charisma and persuasiveness to millions. Today, one asshole with a Twitter account freaks out the world in fewer than 140 characters, and we are particularly, unprecedentedly vulnerable to swallowing the false narratives that are now presented to us personally, on our pocket or desktop computing devices, because a vast, for-profit media ecosystem happily creates and reinforces the worlds people want to believe are true (e.g., Fox News). In hindsight, it was appallingly easy for Trump's team (or maybe even just Kushner?) to exploit that.
This state of affairs is vastly larger and more consequential than Donald Trump (barring truly society-destroying consequences of that particular symptom, which wouldn't be the first time a patient was killed by a symptom rather than the underlying disease). If we survive Trump, we are still utterly transfixed and mesmerized in hyperreality, and are vulnerable to so much more than just this. For me, this both explains how what happened, happened, and to understand where fundamental, sustainable solutions may lie going forward.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:59 PM on December 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
It's all nested and mutually influential, to be sure, but what I'm trying to describe is more subtle and fundamental than mere tribalism; I think that our innate instinct for tribalism is being exploited, but much more easily than ever before, and toward specific, personal ends. Trump and his team are a specific threat and must be responded to as such, because they will use tribalism and all sorts of other fear-mongering and otherization to get what they want, and they're really good at playing those old, familiar tunes.
BUT while that specific threat is horrible and must be faced, what I'm trying to say (and what mordax subsequently drew out) is that aspects of human nature like tribalism are tools and means that people have used to get power or wealth since there were people, but now, two things are different: how loudly people can speak, and how vulnerable we are to being lied to. A hundred or so years ago, a fascist had to stand on a dais and literally holler to be heard, and his propaganda and lies were only as believable as those who spread them, and were spread only as fast as voices or print could carry them. Eighty years ago, a fascist had a microphone and loudspeakers, and could speak in a conversational volume to 30,000 people, and use film to directly portray the version of reality he wanted people to believe, and amplify his personal charisma and persuasiveness to millions. Today, one asshole with a Twitter account freaks out the world in fewer than 140 characters, and we are particularly, unprecedentedly vulnerable to swallowing the false narratives that are now presented to us personally, on our pocket or desktop computing devices, because a vast, for-profit media ecosystem happily creates and reinforces the worlds people want to believe are true (e.g., Fox News). In hindsight, it was appallingly easy for Trump's team (or maybe even just Kushner?) to exploit that.
This state of affairs is vastly larger and more consequential than Donald Trump (barring truly society-destroying consequences of that particular symptom, which wouldn't be the first time a patient was killed by a symptom rather than the underlying disease). If we survive Trump, we are still utterly transfixed and mesmerized in hyperreality, and are vulnerable to so much more than just this. For me, this both explains how what happened, happened, and to understand where fundamental, sustainable solutions may lie going forward.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:59 PM on December 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
Should have run, could have won. Still, there's always 2020...
In that thread from April 2015, with over 700 comments, the word "trump" appears more often as a verb or adjective than as the proper name "Trump".
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
In that thread from April 2015, with over 700 comments, the word "trump" appears more often as a verb or adjective than as the proper name "Trump".
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
voters in many places that went for Trump consistently reject workable, practical solutions to their own problems
Can you give some examples?
KYnect (a.k.a. Obamacare generally).
posted by Etrigan at 1:02 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Can you give some examples?
KYnect (a.k.a. Obamacare generally).
posted by Etrigan at 1:02 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Can you give some examples?
EPA?
Education?
Infrastructure improvements?
Paper ballots?
Equal pay?
Patent reform?
Lower Tax rates for dumbass Trump hucksters?
Renewable energy incentives?
Medicare/Medicaid/SSI?
Privacy rights?
Fair wages and laws (Unions)?
Reasonable judicial interpretations, not citing fictional characters as examples in your opinion, Scalia, you dead sack of shit whoops excuse me I'm rolling
Food safety?
Better musical acts at Presidential Inaugurations?
posted by petebest at 1:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [33 favorites]
EPA?
Education?
Infrastructure improvements?
Paper ballots?
Equal pay?
Patent reform?
Lower Tax rates for dumbass Trump hucksters?
Renewable energy incentives?
Medicare/Medicaid/SSI?
Privacy rights?
Fair wages and laws (Unions)?
Reasonable judicial interpretations, not citing fictional characters as examples in your opinion, Scalia, you dead sack of shit whoops excuse me I'm rolling
Food safety?
Better musical acts at Presidential Inaugurations?
posted by petebest at 1:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [33 favorites]
Trump has said he's going to protect Israel at all costs or something like that. Why would a guy backed by neo-Nazis and (probably) the Russians want to protect Jewish people?
Anti-semites are often very supportive of Zionism because they hope all the Jews will go to Israel.
This may be true in the "racists support welfare in order to discourage Black entrepreneurship" sense, but not in any real one. In my experience antisemites typically go on about "America dancing to Israel's tune" or whatever; and many people who are ostensibly anti-Israel tolerate a remarkable amount of naked antisemitism from the people they associate with.
As to why Trump said that, it's (a) because Trump says a lot of crap; and (b) because it's a wedge issue. I don't imagine anyone serious thinks Trump would really protect Israel, any more than he would protect anyone or anything other than himself and maybe Ivanka.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Anti-semites are often very supportive of Zionism because they hope all the Jews will go to Israel.
This may be true in the "racists support welfare in order to discourage Black entrepreneurship" sense, but not in any real one. In my experience antisemites typically go on about "America dancing to Israel's tune" or whatever; and many people who are ostensibly anti-Israel tolerate a remarkable amount of naked antisemitism from the people they associate with.
As to why Trump said that, it's (a) because Trump says a lot of crap; and (b) because it's a wedge issue. I don't imagine anyone serious thinks Trump would really protect Israel, any more than he would protect anyone or anything other than himself and maybe Ivanka.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
KYnect (a.k.a. Obamacare generally).
I think this one deserves to be elaborated on because it's such an egregious case of football team politics.
Owsley County has 66 percent of its residents dependent on Medicaid.
In 2014 Matt Bevin ran on an explicit promise to shut down KYnect and scrap the Medicare expansion. He won Owsley County by nearly forty points. Trump ran on an explicit promise to scrap Obamacare (which would scrap the Medicaid expansion) and won the county by seventy fucking points.
Now they're all shit scared they're going to lose life saving healthcare. They thought Trump was just being his usual braggadocious jackass and nobody would actually, you know, sentence them to what is effectively death for being poor. It's at this point you throw your arms up in the air with an exclamation of "I CAN'T EVEN!"
posted by Talez at 1:18 PM on December 28, 2016 [44 favorites]
I think this one deserves to be elaborated on because it's such an egregious case of football team politics.
Owsley County has 66 percent of its residents dependent on Medicaid.
In 2014 Matt Bevin ran on an explicit promise to shut down KYnect and scrap the Medicare expansion. He won Owsley County by nearly forty points. Trump ran on an explicit promise to scrap Obamacare (which would scrap the Medicaid expansion) and won the county by seventy fucking points.
Now they're all shit scared they're going to lose life saving healthcare. They thought Trump was just being his usual braggadocious jackass and nobody would actually, you know, sentence them to what is effectively death for being poor. It's at this point you throw your arms up in the air with an exclamation of "I CAN'T EVEN!"
posted by Talez at 1:18 PM on December 28, 2016 [44 favorites]
Has anyone gotten a map of where people voted for Trump and where the opioid and meth addiction problems are greatest?
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 1:18 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 1:18 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Katjusa, here's a study from Penn State about that: Deaths of Despair and Support for Trump in the 2016 Presidential Election [pdf]
Also, Death predicts whether people vote for Donald Trump from back in the primaries
posted by peeedro at 1:28 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, Death predicts whether people vote for Donald Trump from back in the primaries
posted by peeedro at 1:28 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not on the same map, sorry, but:
Has anyone gotten a map of where people voted for Trump...
Trump vote share by county: Sixth figure here. (No specific label or way to link directly - sorry)
... and where the opioid and meth addiction problems are greatest?
Opioid deaths per 100K, by county (2006-2010 average): Figure 7 here.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 1:29 PM on December 28, 2016
Has anyone gotten a map of where people voted for Trump...
Trump vote share by county: Sixth figure here. (No specific label or way to link directly - sorry)
... and where the opioid and meth addiction problems are greatest?
Opioid deaths per 100K, by county (2006-2010 average): Figure 7 here.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 1:29 PM on December 28, 2016
Katjusa Roquette: The closest I could find:
Clinton/Trump Voting Map (2016)
meth lab incidents (2013)
posted by XtinaS at 1:31 PM on December 28, 2016
Clinton/Trump Voting Map (2016)
meth lab incidents (2013)
posted by XtinaS at 1:31 PM on December 28, 2016
(Now I want to make that crossover map actually happen. Dang.)
posted by XtinaS at 1:33 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by XtinaS at 1:33 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump ran on an explicit promise to scrap Obamacare (which would scrap the Medicaid expansion) and won the county by seventy fucking points.
I think the term he consistently used was "repeal and replace." You can make a reasonable argument that his commitment to replace with something much better it is untrustworthy, of course.
I wouldn't call Obamacare a workable and practical solution, personally. My experience of it was in Ohio, though. Maybe KYNect was better. Don't get me wrong: Obamacare is an improvement in many ways, and its flaws reflect hobbling by Republican obstruction, but I don't blame people for looking for something better.
Also, I agree that everything on petebest's long list is good, but I don't see that people were rejecting those things, in the sense LooseFilter meant, when they voted Republican.
posted by Coventry at 1:33 PM on December 28, 2016
I think the term he consistently used was "repeal and replace." You can make a reasonable argument that his commitment to replace with something much better it is untrustworthy, of course.
I wouldn't call Obamacare a workable and practical solution, personally. My experience of it was in Ohio, though. Maybe KYNect was better. Don't get me wrong: Obamacare is an improvement in many ways, and its flaws reflect hobbling by Republican obstruction, but I don't blame people for looking for something better.
Also, I agree that everything on petebest's long list is good, but I don't see that people were rejecting those things, in the sense LooseFilter meant, when they voted Republican.
posted by Coventry at 1:33 PM on December 28, 2016
I would like to nominate Gary Johnson’s infamous “What is Aleppo?” gaffe as the moment which, for me, most typifies 2016, at least as far as our intellectual culture goes.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Worthwhile series of tweets on Michael Flynn's affinity for anti-semites, Putin, conspiracies, leaking classified intelligence, and installing private internet connections at the Pentagon.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:39 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 1:39 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Republicans in general consistently oppose many of the things petebest listed, especially environmental protection laws, tax raises for the wealthy, a higher minimum wage, labor laws, and safety regulations.
I suspect many Republican voters are single-issue - for example, when I was growing up, my church pressured us to vote for and support anti-abortion candidates, and every one of them was Republican. I didn't take any notice of this even then, but many others around me did.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I suspect many Republican voters are single-issue - for example, when I was growing up, my church pressured us to vote for and support anti-abortion candidates, and every one of them was Republican. I didn't take any notice of this even then, but many others around me did.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've read about the meth/Trump connection, but I think it's simpler. I'm using this map for reference:
* Counties that are rural and majority white usually voted Trump.
* Urban areas, minority white counties, ski resorts, university areas, and Indian reservations voted Clinton.
There are some exceptions (certain parts of New England, West Coast, and Duluth area) but this is pretty much it.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:48 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
* Counties that are rural and majority white usually voted Trump.
* Urban areas, minority white counties, ski resorts, university areas, and Indian reservations voted Clinton.
There are some exceptions (certain parts of New England, West Coast, and Duluth area) but this is pretty much it.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:48 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think Trump's statements on Israel are aimed at a combination of Evangelicals, who he needs for political support, and right-leaning Jewish political donors like Adelson who he needs for money. The alt-right is so far spinning this as "the Jews control everything so he's just telling them what they want to hear, but once he's in office he'll drop that." With the underlying threat that if he doesn't, they'll turn on him. See the "deploraball" kerfuffle for more of that.
The last "Jews control the media, the Mossad was behind 9/11, the Jews caused the Russian revolution and are behind most wars" anti-semitic garbage-spewing person I ran up against on facebook (using his own name (!)) was very unhappy with all the pro-Israel talk. It's not for them.
(btw, TIL facebook doesn't consider those statements to be hate speech and won't do anything if you report them except suggest you block the poster or hide their posts. Awesome.)
posted by Mchelly at 1:48 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
The last "Jews control the media, the Mossad was behind 9/11, the Jews caused the Russian revolution and are behind most wars" anti-semitic garbage-spewing person I ran up against on facebook (using his own name (!)) was very unhappy with all the pro-Israel talk. It's not for them.
(btw, TIL facebook doesn't consider those statements to be hate speech and won't do anything if you report them except suggest you block the poster or hide their posts. Awesome.)
posted by Mchelly at 1:48 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm having this stupid fantasy that Obama engineered this crisis with Israel so that DJT is like *fuck this I'm out of here* and Pence gets offered I don't know a chance to be a real boy and then HRC descends, smiling at us as we sob with tears of joy.
I made myself tear up.
posted by angrycat at 1:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I made myself tear up.
posted by angrycat at 1:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
If Johnson’s ignorance was typical, then, what was his real failing? It wasn’t that he didn’t know where or what Aleppo was. It was that he hadn’t deployed the techniques that a lot of people spend their adolescence developing, the ability to cover oneself in a patina of presumed smarts when you lack the actual foundation of knowledge that would help you to genuinely understand that topic at hand.
This is an appealing claim, but is it true that his ignorance was typical? I knew where and what Aleppo is, and its geopolitical significance, and I don't consider myself qualified to run US foreign policy.
posted by Coventry at 1:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is an appealing claim, but is it true that his ignorance was typical? I knew where and what Aleppo is, and its geopolitical significance, and I don't consider myself qualified to run US foreign policy.
posted by Coventry at 1:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
One of the most disturbing things about Trump is his seeming inability to admit that a problem's too big for him or that he's not up for a particular task. His default methods for dealing with conflict seem to be either screaming until he gets his way or throwing money at the problem until it disappears. There are things that a President needs to face that those two methods won't work for.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:59 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:59 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
but I don't see that people were rejecting those things, in the sense LooseFilter meant, when they voted Republican.
The LooseFilter quote being, "voters in many places that went for Trump consistently reject workable, practical solutions to their own problems"
The difference between the two would seem to me to be whether Reagan/Bush/Dole/Dubz/McCain-Palin/Mittens/Trump voters know what practical solutions to their problems are. So that they can thereby reject them for being 'too liberal'.
Maybe it was straight-up racist misogyny overall that motivated Trump voters, but some of the flippers know. They're screwing themselves like they've been told to.
There are things that a President needs to face that those two methods won't work for.
A lot of them know that too. So - punt?
posted by petebest at 2:19 PM on December 28, 2016
The LooseFilter quote being, "voters in many places that went for Trump consistently reject workable, practical solutions to their own problems"
The difference between the two would seem to me to be whether Reagan/Bush/Dole/Dubz/McCain-Palin/Mittens/Trump voters know what practical solutions to their problems are. So that they can thereby reject them for being 'too liberal'.
Maybe it was straight-up racist misogyny overall that motivated Trump voters, but some of the flippers know. They're screwing themselves like they've been told to.
There are things that a President needs to face that those two methods won't work for.
A lot of them know that too. So - punt?
posted by petebest at 2:19 PM on December 28, 2016
.@realDonaldTrump says he had "a very nice conversation" with @POTUS today after accusing Obama of putting up "roadblocks"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Commerce and health - two great tastes that taste great together!
posted by petebest at 2:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by petebest at 2:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
he said he'd replace it with 'allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines.' He had a specific proposal that was more than "repeal and replace"
Which is going to be a complete fucking disaster once some red state with a bought and paid for legislature lets the insurance companies sell complete fucking garbage as "insurance".
posted by Talez at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Which is going to be a complete fucking disaster once some red state with a bought and paid for legislature lets the insurance companies sell complete fucking garbage as "insurance".
posted by Talez at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
cjelli, his position on healthcare is much more complete than that.
posted by Coventry at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by Coventry at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2016
LOL. That paper is a joke. Did you read it? It will do nothing except make things worse.
posted by Justinian at 2:29 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:29 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm starting to think that the best way to deal with single-issue voters who side conservative mainly based on those issues is to make it clear to them that they are responsible for all of the things which happen as a result of their vote, and that it's important to understand, research, and think about all the issues they're voting for rather than just one.
The problem is that some of the pro-life people I've met in particular (though the phenomenon is not limited to them) are so intense (fanatical even) that they genuinely don't care about any of the other issues at stake. They legitimately think abortion doctors are callous monsters who do what they do out of sadism and the money.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:29 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
The problem is that some of the pro-life people I've met in particular (though the phenomenon is not limited to them) are so intense (fanatical even) that they genuinely don't care about any of the other issues at stake. They legitimately think abortion doctors are callous monsters who do what they do out of sadism and the money.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:29 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
"a very nice conversation"
Narcissistic push, narcissistic pull, narcissistic whiplash.
posted by holgate at 2:31 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Narcissistic push, narcissistic pull, narcissistic whiplash.
posted by holgate at 2:31 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
LOL. That paper is a joke. Did you read it? It will do nothing except make things worse.
If they wanted market based solutions they're missing the one thing that would probably make PAYG healthcare even remotely viable: Requiring facilities that accept Medicare to offer Medicare prices for uninsured patients.
posted by Talez at 2:31 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
If they wanted market based solutions they're missing the one thing that would probably make PAYG healthcare even remotely viable: Requiring facilities that accept Medicare to offer Medicare prices for uninsured patients.
posted by Talez at 2:31 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
One of the most disturbing things about Trump is his seeming inability to admit that a problem's too big for him or that he's not up for a particular task.
No, Trump is an agent of chaos and he isn't even trying to work towards the goals that normal people would want or expect.
In contrast, look at the the outgoing administration's actions in the Middle East. They've spent an enormous amount of physical and diplomatic resources on Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, and so forth; and the region is in flames. I think we can stipulate that they weren't trying to have hundreds of thousands killed, millions driven from their homes, and civil wars all over the place; but that's the present situation. At best you can say that the problem was too big for them, but pragmatically I think you'd have to say that US intervention probably made things worse.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:32 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
No, Trump is an agent of chaos and he isn't even trying to work towards the goals that normal people would want or expect.
In contrast, look at the the outgoing administration's actions in the Middle East. They've spent an enormous amount of physical and diplomatic resources on Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, and so forth; and the region is in flames. I think we can stipulate that they weren't trying to have hundreds of thousands killed, millions driven from their homes, and civil wars all over the place; but that's the present situation. At best you can say that the problem was too big for them, but pragmatically I think you'd have to say that US intervention probably made things worse.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:32 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
You think that allowing sale across state lines, HSAs, price transparency, and deporting illegal immigrants is better than Obamacare, Coventry? That's a bold statement.
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Right, Trump's plan has like 1 neutral item (price transparency) and 4 or 5 bad ideas. The idea that it is in any way a replacement for Obamacare is disingenuous and ignorant. Combine it with the proposed gutting of Medicare/Medicaid and... I don't know what to say.
posted by Justinian at 2:37 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:37 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
I note that nowhere in Trump's plan do the words "preexisting conditions" appear. That alone renders it extremely problematic.
posted by Justinian at 2:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
cjelli, his position on healthcare is much more complete than that.
Was this from the policy writers he stiffed? It says:
1) Repeal Obamacare (someone should tell them what it's called)
2) Sell insurance across state lines (I don't recognize the scam, just that it says "scam" on it)
3) Deduct health insurance from taxes
4) "Health Savings Accounts" (/facepalm)
5) "Require price trasparency" but, of course! It's so simple!
6) Block-grants to states for Medicaid, because grifters gonna grift
7) Allow cheaper drugs
"these are just a place to start", okay yeah I agree there I guess. I can see why his sump speech only mentioned the across-state-lines. Its got a real Smokey-and-the-Bandit thing going on. The rest is snoretown.
posted by petebest at 2:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Was this from the policy writers he stiffed? It says:
1) Repeal Obamacare (someone should tell them what it's called)
2) Sell insurance across state lines (I don't recognize the scam, just that it says "scam" on it)
3) Deduct health insurance from taxes
4) "Health Savings Accounts" (/facepalm)
5) "Require price trasparency" but, of course! It's so simple!
6) Block-grants to states for Medicaid, because grifters gonna grift
7) Allow cheaper drugs
"these are just a place to start", okay yeah I agree there I guess. I can see why his sump speech only mentioned the across-state-lines. Its got a real Smokey-and-the-Bandit thing going on. The rest is snoretown.
posted by petebest at 2:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
cjelli, his position on healthcare is much more complete than that.
Indeed. he's gonna make damned sure that poor people can't get any.
posted by valkane at 2:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Indeed. he's gonna make damned sure that poor people can't get any.
posted by valkane at 2:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
You forgot "deport illegal immigrants", petebest. Because that definitely belongs in any serious health care plan. I guess it didn't get a bullet point, but it was in there.
posted by Justinian at 2:43 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:43 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Combine it with the proposed gutting of Medicare/Medicaid and... I don't know what to say.
I used to be puzzled by the kneejerk hatred so many conservatives have for Obamacare, especially since the origins of the plan came from Mitt Romney, one of their own. I get the feeling it was more to sabotage Obama than anything else. Most of them seem to care more about tearing Obamacare to shreds and setting fire to the pieces than creating any workable replacement that doesn't leave the poor, sick, and mentally ill out in the cold to fend for themselves.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:45 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I used to be puzzled by the kneejerk hatred so many conservatives have for Obamacare, especially since the origins of the plan came from Mitt Romney, one of their own. I get the feeling it was more to sabotage Obama than anything else. Most of them seem to care more about tearing Obamacare to shreds and setting fire to the pieces than creating any workable replacement that doesn't leave the poor, sick, and mentally ill out in the cold to fend for themselves.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:45 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
2) Sell insurance across state lines (I don't recognize the scam, just that it says "scam" on it)
The scam is that all health insurers immediately find the state with the laxest and most corporate-friendly regulations and incorporate there, and only sell insurance out of that state.
posted by Justinian at 2:46 PM on December 28, 2016 [28 favorites]
The scam is that all health insurers immediately find the state with the laxest and most corporate-friendly regulations and incorporate there, and only sell insurance out of that state.
posted by Justinian at 2:46 PM on December 28, 2016 [28 favorites]
any workable replacement that doesn't leave the poor, sick, and mentally ill out in the cold to fend for themselves.
Uh, hello, private prisons? I mean, they can't just leave them out in the street unmonetized.
posted by petebest at 2:50 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Uh, hello, private prisons? I mean, they can't just leave them out in the street unmonetized.
posted by petebest at 2:50 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
sale across state lines
2) Sell insurance across state lines (I don't recognize the scam, just that it says "scam" on it)
The scam is that all health insurers immediately find the state with the laxest and most corporate-friendly regulations and incorporate there, and only sell insurance out of that state.
I really want to go into detail on this because selling insurance across state lines sounds so innocuous. More competition, right? We all want more competition!
So. This isn't about letting a small insurer based in another state compete in another state. They can do that already. This would be about letting insurance companies bring the regulations of another state into a state that they want to compete in. So in short, Bob from Big Insurance Co wanders into the Wymoing state legislature, slips a $50K campaign check in front of influential legislative leaders. This gives them open slather to write their own insurance regulations.
What do these regulations cover?
#1) What standard insurance has to cover. State insurange regulators get to dictate to insurance companies what they must cover to sell insurance in their state. This has been mostly standardized under fairly generous benefits through the ACA but still, if the ACA is repealed those standards of coverage will revert to the states.
Now where is the problem here? California, New York, Massachusetts, etc on the back of an ACA repeal might have their state insurance regulators mandate everything that was in ACA and things like preexisting condition coverage and a standard set of benefits. Big Insurance Co has Wyoming take a whole bunch of stuff out of the standard set of benefits. Pregnancy, free doctor visits, psychological and psychiatry services, etc. They are now also allowed to put strict lifetime limits on things so your coverage may only pay out $200K on a cancer diagnosis and they're you're up shit creek.
And because they're the cheapest around and still making monster profits, people buy Big Insurance Co's Wyoming policy instead of California Insurance Company's good policy. This makes California Insurance Company race to the bottom as well. You'll find out how shitty your coverage is eventually but by then it'll be too late. You'll have a preexisting condition and have to pay through the roof for new coverage.
#2) They cover financial regulation of your insurance company. They ensure your company will remain solvent and able to pay your claims when they take your money. If they aren't solvent they won't be allowed to sell in your state. Scam Insurance Co. on the other hand has financial solvency written out of the regulations in our mythical state of bought Wyoming, take money, pay out the executives, shrug their shoulders, and then declare insolvency.
#3) Conduct Standards. If your insurance company is being a dick your can report them to the regulator. The regulator then calls up the insurance company and threatens fines and even pulling their license to sell insurance in the state if they don't stop. Good luck doing that when the regulator is bought and paid for.
Allowing insurance to be sold over state lines cannot be allowed to happen. They allowed usury laws to cross state lines and it was a complete fucking disaster. The difference is that now people's lives will be literally on the line.
posted by Talez at 2:51 PM on December 28, 2016 [71 favorites]
2) Sell insurance across state lines (I don't recognize the scam, just that it says "scam" on it)
The scam is that all health insurers immediately find the state with the laxest and most corporate-friendly regulations and incorporate there, and only sell insurance out of that state.
I really want to go into detail on this because selling insurance across state lines sounds so innocuous. More competition, right? We all want more competition!
So. This isn't about letting a small insurer based in another state compete in another state. They can do that already. This would be about letting insurance companies bring the regulations of another state into a state that they want to compete in. So in short, Bob from Big Insurance Co wanders into the Wymoing state legislature, slips a $50K campaign check in front of influential legislative leaders. This gives them open slather to write their own insurance regulations.
What do these regulations cover?
#1) What standard insurance has to cover. State insurange regulators get to dictate to insurance companies what they must cover to sell insurance in their state. This has been mostly standardized under fairly generous benefits through the ACA but still, if the ACA is repealed those standards of coverage will revert to the states.
Now where is the problem here? California, New York, Massachusetts, etc on the back of an ACA repeal might have their state insurance regulators mandate everything that was in ACA and things like preexisting condition coverage and a standard set of benefits. Big Insurance Co has Wyoming take a whole bunch of stuff out of the standard set of benefits. Pregnancy, free doctor visits, psychological and psychiatry services, etc. They are now also allowed to put strict lifetime limits on things so your coverage may only pay out $200K on a cancer diagnosis and they're you're up shit creek.
And because they're the cheapest around and still making monster profits, people buy Big Insurance Co's Wyoming policy instead of California Insurance Company's good policy. This makes California Insurance Company race to the bottom as well. You'll find out how shitty your coverage is eventually but by then it'll be too late. You'll have a preexisting condition and have to pay through the roof for new coverage.
#2) They cover financial regulation of your insurance company. They ensure your company will remain solvent and able to pay your claims when they take your money. If they aren't solvent they won't be allowed to sell in your state. Scam Insurance Co. on the other hand has financial solvency written out of the regulations in our mythical state of bought Wyoming, take money, pay out the executives, shrug their shoulders, and then declare insolvency.
#3) Conduct Standards. If your insurance company is being a dick your can report them to the regulator. The regulator then calls up the insurance company and threatens fines and even pulling their license to sell insurance in the state if they don't stop. Good luck doing that when the regulator is bought and paid for.
Allowing insurance to be sold over state lines cannot be allowed to happen. They allowed usury laws to cross state lines and it was a complete fucking disaster. The difference is that now people's lives will be literally on the line.
posted by Talez at 2:51 PM on December 28, 2016 [71 favorites]
The PDF is such a joke that it's hard to imagine it not wearing big floppy clown shoes. Where to begin (apart from the absurd linebreaking) ?
1. Completely eliminate the individual mandate: Terrible idea. Unless he's intentionally causing an insurance death spiral by also forcing insurers to insure all comers, this implies revoking the ban on refusing to cover people with pre-existing conditions. Have diabetes? Had cancer in the past? Currently suffering from anything that might make you want to see a doctor? Go fuck yourself, die in the cold.
2. Selling across state lines is a sham. Several states currently allow this and insurers don't even bother, because it's too much of a pain in the ass. And the only thing you're going to get is a massive race to the bottom, much like how all credit cards are based in SD or DE. Congratulations, whichever state decides to allow insurers to cap your lifetime expenses at $20,000 and charge $1,400 / month for whatever shitty deductible they want gets to decide health care policy for the entire nation.
3. Tax deductible premiums are a hand-out to the rich. Think about it for half a fucking second. Let's say you spend $1,000 on premiums. If your marginal rate is 35% (high income) you get a $350 discount; if your marginal rate is 15% (low income), you get a $150 discount. This is backwards. Again: This is backwards.
If you really want to subsidize premiums, give people a check, preferably a bigger check to people with lower income (not the opposite). Surprise: This is what Obamacare does!
4. Tax-free HSA contributions with no estate tax. Uhm, great. In 8 generations maybe my lineage can save up enough to pay for one major medical incident if we're all lucky and industrious. Since insurers will happily and quickly impose lifetime maximums, a $250,000 hospital bill will probably be $150,000 out-of-pocket. Welcome back medical bankruptcy.
5. Price transparency. A good idea, but not nearly enough. You pass out from appendicitis and need an emergency appendectomy, is the EMT going to call your next-of-kin and ask how much shopping around you want to do from the ambulance? It's two hours to the cheaper hospital, maybe you can chance an extra 10% risk of dying to save a few thousand, maybe not. It's not like the ambulance driver knows ahead of time what procedure you're going to need anyway.
6. Block-grand Medicaid, AKA let states burn Medicaid to the ground and use the remainder of the money as a slush fund.
7. Remove barriers to entry, AKA revoke the FDA. A few thousand dead and deformed babies will fix people up on this idea.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [37 favorites]
1. Completely eliminate the individual mandate: Terrible idea. Unless he's intentionally causing an insurance death spiral by also forcing insurers to insure all comers, this implies revoking the ban on refusing to cover people with pre-existing conditions. Have diabetes? Had cancer in the past? Currently suffering from anything that might make you want to see a doctor? Go fuck yourself, die in the cold.
2. Selling across state lines is a sham. Several states currently allow this and insurers don't even bother, because it's too much of a pain in the ass. And the only thing you're going to get is a massive race to the bottom, much like how all credit cards are based in SD or DE. Congratulations, whichever state decides to allow insurers to cap your lifetime expenses at $20,000 and charge $1,400 / month for whatever shitty deductible they want gets to decide health care policy for the entire nation.
3. Tax deductible premiums are a hand-out to the rich. Think about it for half a fucking second. Let's say you spend $1,000 on premiums. If your marginal rate is 35% (high income) you get a $350 discount; if your marginal rate is 15% (low income), you get a $150 discount. This is backwards. Again: This is backwards.
If you really want to subsidize premiums, give people a check, preferably a bigger check to people with lower income (not the opposite). Surprise: This is what Obamacare does!
4. Tax-free HSA contributions with no estate tax. Uhm, great. In 8 generations maybe my lineage can save up enough to pay for one major medical incident if we're all lucky and industrious. Since insurers will happily and quickly impose lifetime maximums, a $250,000 hospital bill will probably be $150,000 out-of-pocket. Welcome back medical bankruptcy.
5. Price transparency. A good idea, but not nearly enough. You pass out from appendicitis and need an emergency appendectomy, is the EMT going to call your next-of-kin and ask how much shopping around you want to do from the ambulance? It's two hours to the cheaper hospital, maybe you can chance an extra 10% risk of dying to save a few thousand, maybe not. It's not like the ambulance driver knows ahead of time what procedure you're going to need anyway.
6. Block-grand Medicaid, AKA let states burn Medicaid to the ground and use the remainder of the money as a slush fund.
7. Remove barriers to entry, AKA revoke the FDA. A few thousand dead and deformed babies will fix people up on this idea.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [37 favorites]
The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigor, then? Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 2:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
I can see why his sump speech only mentioned the across-state-lines...posted by petebest
Thanks for the giggle!
posted by futz at 2:58 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thanks for the giggle!
posted by futz at 2:58 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Good luck doing that when the regulator is bought and paid for.
Fortunately the Koch brothers don't have time to rig up our state regu- . . . waitaminit - Statue of Liberty . . *gasp* that was OUR planet!
posted by petebest at 3:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fortunately the Koch brothers don't have time to rig up our state regu- . . . waitaminit - Statue of Liberty . . *gasp* that was OUR planet!
posted by petebest at 3:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
We still have to discuss the fact that free-market healthcare is an oxymoron.
A necessary precondition to a free market is that you are able to walk away from a transaction if no price on offer is suitable. But you can't walk away from getting insulin, at least not very far.
What's confusing is that conservatives would easily identify this situation as coercive if it were framed differently. They can think hard enough to call taxation "theft" or "slavery" because they don't believe in public goods, but can't figure out that being held at the gunpoint of medical neglect is no closer to freedom.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:06 PM on December 28, 2016 [33 favorites]
A necessary precondition to a free market is that you are able to walk away from a transaction if no price on offer is suitable. But you can't walk away from getting insulin, at least not very far.
What's confusing is that conservatives would easily identify this situation as coercive if it were framed differently. They can think hard enough to call taxation "theft" or "slavery" because they don't believe in public goods, but can't figure out that being held at the gunpoint of medical neglect is no closer to freedom.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:06 PM on December 28, 2016 [33 favorites]
voters in many places that went for Trump consistently reject workable, practical solutions to their own problems
Can you give some examples?
General request that before asking for specific examples repeatedly, please cntrl + f this and previous election threads for various key words in your question because I promise you whatever topic has been covered multiple times by now.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Can you give some examples?
General request that before asking for specific examples repeatedly, please cntrl + f this and previous election threads for various key words in your question because I promise you whatever topic has been covered multiple times by now.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
JJ MacNab covers anti-government extremism in America. She thinks that things are going to blow-up pretty soon for several reasons.
I think the honeymoon is about to end. A number of things are happening that likely to stir up the movement's anger.
Earlier today, Pres. Obama designated the Gold Butte area as a Nat'l Monument. For 22+ yr, Cliven Bundy has grazed his cattle on Gold Butte.
She goes on to list several other reasons. Trial dates coming up. Significant anniversaries. Not enough recognition from Trump.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think the honeymoon is about to end. A number of things are happening that likely to stir up the movement's anger.
Earlier today, Pres. Obama designated the Gold Butte area as a Nat'l Monument. For 22+ yr, Cliven Bundy has grazed his cattle on Gold Butte.
She goes on to list several other reasons. Trial dates coming up. Significant anniversaries. Not enough recognition from Trump.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
It's way more comforting to believe that this credulous interpretation of Trump's healthcare "plan" is an elaborate performance than to accept that someone who actually believes in progressive solutions to societal problems is falling for this horseshit.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:22 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 3:22 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
but why now?
So it doesn't get sold off to the highest bidder on jan 21?
posted by localhuman at 3:25 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
So it doesn't get sold off to the highest bidder on jan 21?
posted by localhuman at 3:25 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
HuffPo Trump Taps His Company’s Lawyer To Be ‘Special Representative For International Negotiations’
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Trump noted that Greenblatt, who has worked for Trump’s company for more than 20 years, “has a history of negotiating substantial, complex transactions on my behalf, as well as the expertise to bring parties together and build consensus on difficult and sensitive topics.”I'm telling you now, we are going to have a Harriet Miers moment when DJT announces his Supreme Court nominee. It will be someone he is related to (like his sister) or someone who has worked for him or possibly a golfing buddy.
“I am deeply grateful and humbled by President-elect Trump’s decision to appoint me to represent the United States in international negotiations,” Greenblatt said in the statement. “My philosophy, in both business and in life, is that bringing people together and working to unite, rather than to divide, is the strongest path to success.”
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
With this whole selling insurance across state lines idea, could states that actually give a shit about their residents still say "yeah, absolutely you can sell your insurance here, if you meet these minimum standards"? Similar to how California's emissions regulations set the standard for the whole auto industry because they can't afford to lose the California market. It's not a direct comparison because the expenses of doing a separate manufacturing run of a car just for California are crazy compared to just doing a separate insurance package for that market, but could California basically say "sorry, you're not selling here until you stop shafting poor people in Oklahoma"?
posted by jason_steakums at 3:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 3:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
How President Obama Has Protected Our Sacred Land for Future Generations
By Russell Begaye, President of the Navajo Nation
By Russell Begaye, President of the Navajo Nation
Today, President Barack Obama has signed a proclamation to protect this land as a national monument for future generations of Navajo people and for all Americans. Thanks to his action, this land will be finally given the legal reverence and protection it deserves.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:28 PM on December 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
This action reflects the President’s profound record on conservation: He has done more than any other president in history to set aside more land and water for the future.
But it is also in accordance with his actions to elevate the voices of Native people. Five sovereign tribal nations petitioned to have this irreplaceable land conserved.
Obama is using his last month to designate a shitload of national monuments, not just the two from today.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:28 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:28 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
With this whole selling insurance across state lines idea, could states that actually give a shit about their residents still say "yeah, absolutely you can sell your insurance here, if you meet these minimum standards"
This is the situation already. Obamacare does not prevent states from allowing out-of-state insurers. Any change in law that claims to make it "possible" to buy across state lines would necessarily be banning this sort of state-specific regulation.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:30 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is the situation already. Obamacare does not prevent states from allowing out-of-state insurers. Any change in law that claims to make it "possible" to buy across state lines would necessarily be banning this sort of state-specific regulation.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:30 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
WaPo With new monuments in Nevada, Utah, Obama adds to his environmental legacy
President Obama on Wednesday created new national monuments in a sacred tribal site in southeastern Utah and in a swath of Nevada desert, after years of political fights over the fate of the areas.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:31 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
The designations further cement Obama’s environmental legacy as one of the most consequential — and contentious — in presidential history. He now has invoked his executive power to create national monuments 29 times during his tenure, establishing or expanding protections for more than 553 million acres of federal lands and waters.
So it doesn't get sold off to the highest bidder on jan 21?
That was my hot take as well, yes. Bundy et al want free run of the land to squeeze as much money out of it as they can before it is ruined through over-grazing, etc. And once the soil is overcompacted, it will take a long long time to become productive again. So this strikes me as a Hail Mary pass to protect the land for the future. Though I am sure it will send people into howling fantods.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
That was my hot take as well, yes. Bundy et al want free run of the land to squeeze as much money out of it as they can before it is ruined through over-grazing, etc. And once the soil is overcompacted, it will take a long long time to become productive again. So this strikes me as a Hail Mary pass to protect the land for the future. Though I am sure it will send people into howling fantods.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'll be interested to see if Obama considers this.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:35 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by jason_steakums at 3:35 PM on December 28, 2016
I'll be interested to see if Obama considers this.
Would we know if Obama had done that? Surely that wouldn't be public information? And couldn't trump undo it immediately?
posted by futz at 3:41 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Would we know if Obama had done that? Surely that wouldn't be public information? And couldn't trump undo it immediately?
posted by futz at 3:41 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you have specific actions he can take right now that don't require new legislation, please list them [...]
Thank you.
1) Shut down the US's secretive and possibly-illegal operations in the Near and Middle East, and Africa; specifically but not limited to so-called drone warfare.
2) Free any prisoners at Guantanamo who have not yet been charged, even if that freedom is limited to "OK, you can walk out of your cell now, Cuba is that way."
3) Release the CIA report on torture. All of it.
4) Pardon or reprieve all persons imprisoned as a consequence of Federal drug laws that target African-Americans.
5) Pardon or reprieve all persons whose imprisonment is otherwise egregious. There are a bunch of liberal organisations that are up to speed on this.
6) Pardon or reprieve Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange, and Edward Snowden.
This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure that I could come up with other things, and I'm damn sure that groups like the ACLU could make a much better list than I could.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:45 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Thank you.
1) Shut down the US's secretive and possibly-illegal operations in the Near and Middle East, and Africa; specifically but not limited to so-called drone warfare.
2) Free any prisoners at Guantanamo who have not yet been charged, even if that freedom is limited to "OK, you can walk out of your cell now, Cuba is that way."
3) Release the CIA report on torture. All of it.
4) Pardon or reprieve all persons imprisoned as a consequence of Federal drug laws that target African-Americans.
5) Pardon or reprieve all persons whose imprisonment is otherwise egregious. There are a bunch of liberal organisations that are up to speed on this.
6) Pardon or reprieve Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange, and Edward Snowden.
This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure that I could come up with other things, and I'm damn sure that groups like the ACLU could make a much better list than I could.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:45 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Deleted a derail. Don't just drop unexplained one-liner bombs.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:45 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:45 PM on December 28, 2016
Oh yes, and release Trump's tax returns and order that all Presidential candidates' returns be released in the future.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:46 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:46 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh yes, and release Trump's tax returns and order that all Presidential candidates' returns be released in the future.
Pretty sure that's a violation of federal privacy laws, and would require an act of Congress to accomplish.
posted by suelac at 3:51 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure that's a violation of federal privacy laws, and would require an act of Congress to accomplish.
posted by suelac at 3:51 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Manning and Snowden, sure, but Assange is an anti-Semite, a rapist, and a useful idiot who doesn't care about people being hurt or killed by unrestricted releases of personal data.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 3:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
Oh yes, and release Trump's tax returns and order that all Presidential candidates' returns be released in the future.
Pretty sure that's a violation of federal privacy laws, and would require an act of Congress to accomplish.
California and New York are both in the process of instituting laws that would require presidential candidates to release tax returns to seek ballot access. We could possibly see in 2020 the unprecedented situation of a Republican candidate not seeking ballot access in CA and NY.
posted by Talez at 3:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Pretty sure that's a violation of federal privacy laws, and would require an act of Congress to accomplish.
California and New York are both in the process of instituting laws that would require presidential candidates to release tax returns to seek ballot access. We could possibly see in 2020 the unprecedented situation of a Republican candidate not seeking ballot access in CA and NY.
posted by Talez at 3:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
If George W. Bush could commute Scooter Libby's sentence for leaking an active CIA officer's name, perhaps Obama should pardon an IRS employee for leaking Trump's tax returns.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:56 PM on December 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:56 PM on December 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
California and New York are both in the process of instituting laws that would require presidential candidates to release tax returns to seek ballot access.
Yeah, that functionally makes it voluntary. But the President cannot just announce that all presidential candidates' tax returns will always be made public, ta-da, without the candidates' agreement.
I concur that the CA & NY plan is the wisest, rather than being mandated by Congress or the FEC or whatever. The other option is for the national party committees to require such transparency in future: if you want the RNC to back you, you gotta show your returns to the public.
posted by suelac at 4:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that functionally makes it voluntary. But the President cannot just announce that all presidential candidates' tax returns will always be made public, ta-da, without the candidates' agreement.
I concur that the CA & NY plan is the wisest, rather than being mandated by Congress or the FEC or whatever. The other option is for the national party committees to require such transparency in future: if you want the RNC to back you, you gotta show your returns to the public.
posted by suelac at 4:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
The CA&NY plan is meaningless until a swing state does it.
posted by Justinian at 4:04 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:04 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
With regards to getting on the ballot, since each county implements voting in its own way, is it possible for certain counties to place extra hurdles for candidates? Like for Austin TX to say "no tax returns, no ballot?"
posted by C'est la D.C. at 4:06 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by C'est la D.C. at 4:06 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
5) Pardon or reprieve all persons whose imprisonment is otherwise egregious
Free Leonard.
posted by ridgerunner at 4:07 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Free Leonard.
posted by ridgerunner at 4:07 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
"With regards to getting on the ballot, since each county implements voting in its own way, is it possible for certain counties to place extra hurdles for candidates?"
Probably not. Ballot access is usually a matter of state law. Localities can implement the specifics of how voting works and where people turn in petitions and whatnot, but the required registration paperwork, when filing deadlines are, etc., is typically state law. The county can decide things like "we only have 4,000 people in the county, we only need one voting precinct" or "we'll set up multiple filing locations for candidates because we're geographically large." But they probably can't set the ballot-access rules for candidates in a statewide contest.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Probably not. Ballot access is usually a matter of state law. Localities can implement the specifics of how voting works and where people turn in petitions and whatnot, but the required registration paperwork, when filing deadlines are, etc., is typically state law. The county can decide things like "we only have 4,000 people in the county, we only need one voting precinct" or "we'll set up multiple filing locations for candidates because we're geographically large." But they probably can't set the ballot-access rules for candidates in a statewide contest.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
JJ MacNab covers anti-government extremism in America. She thinks that things are going to blow-up pretty soon for several reasons.
I think the honeymoon is about to end. A number of things are happening that likely to stir up the movement's anger.
Earlier today, Pres. Obama designated the Gold Butte area as a Nat'l Monument. For 22+ yr, Cliven Bundy has grazed his cattle on Gold Butte.
I think she's dead-on about the Bundy gang and their buddies being due for another tantrum. They didn't learn any lessons from the last two incidents and the third time might be the big one. After Malheur they see a precedent for seizing land and abusing it without repercussions. The next time they try to steal federal land (I have a terrible suspicion that it'll have to do with the national forests in my neck of the woods) it's going to be a shitshow. However federal law enforcement might deal with it under the new regime, it's likely to be spectacularly mishandled: whether it'll be piles-of-corpses incompetence or letting-them-successfully-hold-federal-land-for-years incompetence remains to be seen.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:19 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the honeymoon is about to end. A number of things are happening that likely to stir up the movement's anger.
Earlier today, Pres. Obama designated the Gold Butte area as a Nat'l Monument. For 22+ yr, Cliven Bundy has grazed his cattle on Gold Butte.
I think she's dead-on about the Bundy gang and their buddies being due for another tantrum. They didn't learn any lessons from the last two incidents and the third time might be the big one. After Malheur they see a precedent for seizing land and abusing it without repercussions. The next time they try to steal federal land (I have a terrible suspicion that it'll have to do with the national forests in my neck of the woods) it's going to be a shitshow. However federal law enforcement might deal with it under the new regime, it's likely to be spectacularly mishandled: whether it'll be piles-of-corpses incompetence or letting-them-successfully-hold-federal-land-for-years incompetence remains to be seen.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:19 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Retaliation for Russian Election Hack Could Be Announced Thursday
posted by futz at 4:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 4:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
The CA&NY plan is meaningless until a swing state does it.
Wouldn't the state level plan also deny access to the primary ballot? Seems like that could be an issue for a hard right candidate even in a (suitably large) blue state.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:29 PM on December 28, 2016
Wouldn't the state level plan also deny access to the primary ballot? Seems like that could be an issue for a hard right candidate even in a (suitably large) blue state.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:29 PM on December 28, 2016
Primary ballot access is run by the party, not by the state. The GOP sets the ballot access requirements for the primary.
posted by Justinian at 4:31 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by Justinian at 4:31 PM on December 28, 2016
6) Pardon or reprieve Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange, and Edward Snowden.
Manning and Snowden, sure, but Assange is an anti-Semite, a rapist, and a useful idiot who doesn't care about people being hurt or killed by unrestricted releases of personal data.
You know, I'm sure that similar things could be said of many of the people imprisoned under unjust laws or through vindictive prosecution and incompetent defense. None the less, they should still benefit from pardons, commutations, and amnesty, when this would reflect the liberal values to which the US aspires.
Note: The USA doesn't actually have any jurisdiction over Assange's assault charges or antisemitism; that's a bit of a red herring. If it did, though, you can bet that he wouldn't be prosecuted under a Trump administration, so it's a doubly-moot point.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:35 PM on December 28, 2016
Manning and Snowden, sure, but Assange is an anti-Semite, a rapist, and a useful idiot who doesn't care about people being hurt or killed by unrestricted releases of personal data.
You know, I'm sure that similar things could be said of many of the people imprisoned under unjust laws or through vindictive prosecution and incompetent defense. None the less, they should still benefit from pardons, commutations, and amnesty, when this would reflect the liberal values to which the US aspires.
Note: The USA doesn't actually have any jurisdiction over Assange's assault charges or antisemitism; that's a bit of a red herring. If it did, though, you can bet that he wouldn't be prosecuted under a Trump administration, so it's a doubly-moot point.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:35 PM on December 28, 2016
Joe in Australia: You know, I'm sure that similar things could be said of many of the people imprisoned under unjust laws or through vindictive prosecution and incompetent defense. None the less, they should still benefit from pardons, commutations, and amnesty, when this would reflect the liberal values to which the US aspires.
What exactly is your point? What, in your opinion, is Assange being unjustly accused of doing?
posted by bluecore at 4:40 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
What exactly is your point? What, in your opinion, is Assange being unjustly accused of doing?
posted by bluecore at 4:40 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Retaliation for Russian Election Hack Could Be Announced Thursday
posted by jason_steakums at 4:46 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
According to Anup Ghosh, a former top government cyberexpert and the CEO of cybersecurity firm Invincea, American officials are aware that the Russians have already penetrated portions of U.S. critical infrastructure. He said the Russians “have the capability and the will” to pull the trigger on these cyberimplants; Russia used similar malware in cyberattacks that crippled huge swaths of the Ukrainian power grid during the Crimean crisis.Oh good.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:46 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm for pardoning Assange, honestly. I think he's a horrible person, but:
1. The US's problem with him is not that he's a horrible person, it's that he's a whistleblower
2. Pardon him and he pretty much has no excuse not to face the rape charges
3. If we're saying that whistle-blowing in a good cause is pardonable, he should be pardoned, even if he's done other stuff, because being consistent is an important part of democratic tradition
4. It's a gesture of rapprochement to the Bernie-bros, etc. Like it or lump it, there's a lot of people on the left who will be important in winning elections in coming years, at least if we want to elect anyone who isn't just a Republican-lite, who see Assange as hard done by. Pardoning Assange would be consistent if Manning and Snowden were pardoned and not doing it would seem vindictive if they were.
5. Let Assange dig his own pit. He's unreliable, doesn't care about the wellbeing of anyone who gets in his way and there are plausible allegations of rape against him. He's gone a long way toward discrediting himself and if he's free to roam about the place, his true colors will become more and more apparent.
6. Do you really want him going to Russia [eta: where I bet he'll end up]? On a power-politics level, I'd rather have him roaming free than sitting in Moscow giving cover for the murder of journalists and gays.
posted by Frowner at 4:51 PM on December 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
1. The US's problem with him is not that he's a horrible person, it's that he's a whistleblower
2. Pardon him and he pretty much has no excuse not to face the rape charges
3. If we're saying that whistle-blowing in a good cause is pardonable, he should be pardoned, even if he's done other stuff, because being consistent is an important part of democratic tradition
4. It's a gesture of rapprochement to the Bernie-bros, etc. Like it or lump it, there's a lot of people on the left who will be important in winning elections in coming years, at least if we want to elect anyone who isn't just a Republican-lite, who see Assange as hard done by. Pardoning Assange would be consistent if Manning and Snowden were pardoned and not doing it would seem vindictive if they were.
5. Let Assange dig his own pit. He's unreliable, doesn't care about the wellbeing of anyone who gets in his way and there are plausible allegations of rape against him. He's gone a long way toward discrediting himself and if he's free to roam about the place, his true colors will become more and more apparent.
6. Do you really want him going to Russia [eta: where I bet he'll end up]? On a power-politics level, I'd rather have him roaming free than sitting in Moscow giving cover for the murder of journalists and gays.
posted by Frowner at 4:51 PM on December 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
I just don't like the idea of anything nice happening to Assange.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:07 PM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:07 PM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
> Trump Considering 'Public-Private Option' For VA
Support the troops! (Fees may apply, please see your Service Member Agreement for details.)
posted by tonycpsu at 5:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Support the troops! (Fees may apply, please see your Service Member Agreement for details.)
posted by tonycpsu at 5:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
This article is good:
Fake News Is Not the Real Media Threat We’re Facing
Fake News Is Not the Real Media Threat We’re Facing
The point is that the conservative media machine, and a majority of Republican officeholders, up to and including the president-elect, now form part of a coherent, united ideological apparatus that has fought with enormous success to capture the principal levers of power in this country, and that attempts systematically to discredit and demonize anyone who opposes it. [...] And the members of it who work in broadcast studios and so-called newsrooms are not journalists. They are the party’s media arm, full stop. They should be treated as such.posted by OnceUponATime at 5:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [35 favorites]
Trump tells visitors he’s drafting his inaugural speech with Reagan and Kennedy in mind
When reached Wednesday by phone, Brinkley, who is a professor at Rice University in Houston, declined to discuss Trump’s framework for the inaugural address. But he confirmed that Trump spoke at length about history and asked questions about past inaugurations.
“We talked about JFK and Reagan and about how William Henry Harrison caught pneumonia after giving too long of an inaugural speech,” Brinkley said. “I was there as a presidential historian, telling stories and listening to his view of the presidency.”
HA. A subtle nudge to trump to keep his speech short and on point? One can hope that it subliminally reached him because subtlety is not his forte.
posted by futz at 5:34 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
When reached Wednesday by phone, Brinkley, who is a professor at Rice University in Houston, declined to discuss Trump’s framework for the inaugural address. But he confirmed that Trump spoke at length about history and asked questions about past inaugurations.
“We talked about JFK and Reagan and about how William Henry Harrison caught pneumonia after giving too long of an inaugural speech,” Brinkley said. “I was there as a presidential historian, telling stories and listening to his view of the presidency.”
HA. A subtle nudge to trump to keep his speech short and on point? One can hope that it subliminally reached him because subtlety is not his forte.
posted by futz at 5:34 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Coventry, is this a bit that you're doing? I'm having a really hard time understanding it as anything but, and I don't think I'm alone in this.
I think it's concern trolling, and it's getting tiresome.
posted by diogenes at 5:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think it's concern trolling, and it's getting tiresome.
posted by diogenes at 5:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think that we are all aware that Trump has no real feel for religion even though he was the heavily favored candidate of the Evangelical Christians. This, however, might be too much even for them:
Erick Erickson An Actual Trinity-Denying Heretic Will Pray at Trump’s Inauguration
Erick Erickson An Actual Trinity-Denying Heretic Will Pray at Trump’s Inauguration
So it should be a pretty damn big deal that Donald Trump is inviting to pray at the inaugural an actual, factual heretic who rejects the Nicene Creed.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:36 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Paula White, a prosperity gospel charlatan and Trump’s “spiritual advisor,” is going to pray. In the video above you can see White, in her own words, rejecting the trinity. She claims Jesus Christ is the first born of creation and not the only begotten son of God.
That is well settled and agreed upon heresy by every single Christian denomination. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. To utter those words is to not be a Christian. It is that simple.
Actual Trinity-Denying Heretic Will Pray at Trump’s Inauguration
... I can't believe you think it's appropriate to post something like that here.
What if Erickson was complaining that Trump had invited a Jew or a Hindu or whatever? What if he had invited a Mormon, or one of the other groups that don't accept the Nicene creed? Erickson is just a bigot, and if Trump's choice is controversial it will be one of the few occasions I can say "good for him". But you know, I don't think it will be so controversial; I think most Americans haven't heard of the Nicene Creed and most of those who have understand that the US has no Established Church.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
... I can't believe you think it's appropriate to post something like that here.
What if Erickson was complaining that Trump had invited a Jew or a Hindu or whatever? What if he had invited a Mormon, or one of the other groups that don't accept the Nicene creed? Erickson is just a bigot, and if Trump's choice is controversial it will be one of the few occasions I can say "good for him". But you know, I don't think it will be so controversial; I think most Americans haven't heard of the Nicene Creed and most of those who have understand that the US has no Established Church.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
".. I can't believe you think it's appropriate to post something like that here. "
I don't know, a dude who thinks that the Arian Heresy is remotely interesting to more than 0.01% of American Chrsitians and they will therefore rise up in revolt against Trump is maybe the most 2016 thing that has happened. (Also how often to theologians like yours truly get to talk about fourth-century heresies in the context of 21st-century politics? ALMOST NEVER.)
This is so silly I literally LOLed and yet it will exercise certain portions of the right-wing Christian web for WEEKS.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [31 favorites]
I don't know, a dude who thinks that the Arian Heresy is remotely interesting to more than 0.01% of American Chrsitians and they will therefore rise up in revolt against Trump is maybe the most 2016 thing that has happened. (Also how often to theologians like yours truly get to talk about fourth-century heresies in the context of 21st-century politics? ALMOST NEVER.)
This is so silly I literally LOLed and yet it will exercise certain portions of the right-wing Christian web for WEEKS.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:00 PM on December 28, 2016 [31 favorites]
Evangelical Christians just care that he is an active force for evil in the world, like they are, and could give a fuck whatever the fuck else he does, because as utter hypocrites they'll spin it all away anyway.
posted by Artw at 6:12 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:12 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Colorado dumps presidential caucuses for primaries
posted by futz at 6:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by futz at 6:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is so silly I literally LOLed
It's silly but not silly. Wars have been fought, literally, over silly points of doctrine like that.
It's interesting to me because it proves Fred Clark's point that "Evangelical Christians" no longer define themselves in terms of theological doctrines at all. Instead, orthodoxy now demands opposition to abortion and homosexuality. Those are the fundamental tenets of the Evangelical faith now, deviation from which will get you shunned by the community. The divinity of Christ is NOT, apparently, such a defining tenet of the faith.
There are maybe a few left who will be upset by this, but the fact that there are so few is itself a remarkable story. White American Evangelical Christianity has completely reinvented itself in our lifetimes. As recently as the 1970s opposition to abortion was not really a part of the faith at all, as Clark has documented. Now it is more central than the divinity of Christ. I can't wait to read what Fred writes about this.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [41 favorites]
It's silly but not silly. Wars have been fought, literally, over silly points of doctrine like that.
It's interesting to me because it proves Fred Clark's point that "Evangelical Christians" no longer define themselves in terms of theological doctrines at all. Instead, orthodoxy now demands opposition to abortion and homosexuality. Those are the fundamental tenets of the Evangelical faith now, deviation from which will get you shunned by the community. The divinity of Christ is NOT, apparently, such a defining tenet of the faith.
There are maybe a few left who will be upset by this, but the fact that there are so few is itself a remarkable story. White American Evangelical Christianity has completely reinvented itself in our lifetimes. As recently as the 1970s opposition to abortion was not really a part of the faith at all, as Clark has documented. Now it is more central than the divinity of Christ. I can't wait to read what Fred writes about this.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:26 PM on December 28, 2016 [41 favorites]
Paula's bio usually is listed as "Motivational Speaker, Author, and Life Coach" and she helped Trump pimp his book "Why We Want You to Be Rich". You can learn more about her interpretation of religious dogma here and also she will "teach you the principles she personally discovered on how to have financial freedom based on the promises of God!"
I'm thinking she might not be in it for the theology.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:27 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm thinking she might not be in it for the theology.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:27 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
That is well settled and agreed upon heresy by every single Christian denomination.
Well, except that it's not, but carry on.
I mean, the sky IS falling, but not over this. I don't have enough evens to give, except maybe if the evangelicals DO freak out, but I really, truly, doubt that. Because as a Jew who thinks Jesus was a pretty cool rabbi and said some good stuff, my actions make me a heck of a lot more Christian than those fools.
posted by Ruki at 6:28 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, except that it's not, but carry on.
I mean, the sky IS falling, but not over this. I don't have enough evens to give, except maybe if the evangelicals DO freak out, but I really, truly, doubt that. Because as a Jew who thinks Jesus was a pretty cool rabbi and said some good stuff, my actions make me a heck of a lot more Christian than those fools.
posted by Ruki at 6:28 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think most Americans haven't heard of the Nicene Creed ...
Despite its status as one of foundations of nearly every Christian denomination for the last 1600+ years, I would not be surprised to learn that you are correct.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:30 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Despite its status as one of foundations of nearly every Christian denomination for the last 1600+ years, I would not be surprised to learn that you are correct.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:30 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
“We talked about JFK and Reagan and about how William Henry Harrison caught pneumonia after giving too long of an inaugural speech,” Brinkley said...
futz: HA. A subtle nudge to trump to keep his speech short and on point? One can hope that it subliminally reached him...
To the contrary—I personally hope it's freezing cold that day and that Trump goes for the Guinness record.
posted by Atom Eyes at 6:32 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
futz: HA. A subtle nudge to trump to keep his speech short and on point? One can hope that it subliminally reached him...
To the contrary—I personally hope it's freezing cold that day and that Trump goes for the Guinness record.
posted by Atom Eyes at 6:32 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think most Americans haven't heard of the Nicene Creed ...
I dunno, I only go to church like twice a year and we always recite it at those services.
posted by TwoStride at 6:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I dunno, I only go to church like twice a year and we always recite it at those services.
posted by TwoStride at 6:35 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think most Americans haven't heard of the Nicene Creed ...
Is that the "God is great, God is good" one or the "Ring around the Rosie" one? . . . Or the boxer? Maybe?
HELP ME JEBUS!
posted by petebest at 6:36 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is that the "God is great, God is good" one or the "Ring around the Rosie" one? . . . Or the boxer? Maybe?
HELP ME JEBUS!
posted by petebest at 6:36 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
(That said, I don't think that many people really understand/care about the "heresy" aspect and agree that for most Evangelicals it's just about opposing abortion and gay rights).
posted by TwoStride at 6:37 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by TwoStride at 6:37 PM on December 28, 2016
To the contrary—I personally hope it's freezing cold that day and that Trump goes for the Guinness record.
I'm genuinely conflicted about things like this. Because it's literally wishing for someone's death. I hate Trump as much as anyone, but, on the other hand, it was, putting it mildly, super NOT COOL when the other side wished the same for Obama. I'm angry and I'm going to do everything I can to prevent and/or mitigate the damage he will inevitably cause, but violent rhetoric, cathartic though it may be, is problematic.
posted by Ruki at 6:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm genuinely conflicted about things like this. Because it's literally wishing for someone's death. I hate Trump as much as anyone, but, on the other hand, it was, putting it mildly, super NOT COOL when the other side wished the same for Obama. I'm angry and I'm going to do everything I can to prevent and/or mitigate the damage he will inevitably cause, but violent rhetoric, cathartic though it may be, is problematic.
posted by Ruki at 6:42 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Interesting Politico piece about the relationship between Trump and Pastor White: Donald Trump’s God whisperer
And Trump and White share personal track records — divorce, bankruptcy, embracing views outside of the Republican and evangelical mainstreams — that raise hackles among the influential Christian leaders Trump needs on his team as he seeks to consolidate the Republican base.posted by tonycpsu at 6:43 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
“I don’t know who she is, I don’t have any contact with her, I’ve never met her, never talked to her; the most prominent her name has been is, she’s tied to Trump,” said David Lane, an influential evangelical leader with whom many of the Republican presidential candidates cultivated a relationship. Adding that her brand of faith does not represent the mainstream among more traditional Christians, he said, “She can’t move evangelicals.”
Yet White, a 50-year-old grandmother who, like Trump, is on her third marriage, this one to rocker Jonathan Cain of Journey fame, has emerged as one of the candidate’s main conduits to the evangelical community. It’s a vote-rich constituency that continues to harbor skepticism about his commitment to its policy views and personal beliefs — and White is fighting a sometimes uphill battle to change that.
"Well, except that it's not, but carry on."
What's particularly amusing about it to me is, he's in the realm of "not even wrong." (Or possibly, "technically correct, which is the best kind of correct!") In fact most scholars or religion would take "professes the Nicene Creed" as an acceptable definition of "Christian," but merely for the purpose of drawing category lines for taxonomizing the whole mess o' denominations, not for the purpose of saying some people are morally acceptable and others aren't. Like, okay, you may be technically correct that someone who thinks Jesus is the first-created thing rather than co-eternal with the Father is not TECHNICALLY Christian but why would it follow that they shouldn't give a religious invocation at whatever government event is requiring an invocation? Because a) Lots of American Christianity is about offshoots that are not quite within the official tradition and b) THE WHOLE THING IS THAT ANYBODY CAN GIVE AN INVOCATION because there's no established religion! She could be Pastafarian and it'd be fine!
But it is TOTALLY HILARIOUS that the usury, the hate, the prosperity gospel, the incessant attacks on the poor, the war-mongering, the guns, the active and deliberate attacks on truth in service of partisan politics, all of that is fine, but suddenly some lady says Jesus is the First Fruits rather than the Only-Begotten (which I will bet you dollars to donuts she does not even know the difference and is probably unaware of Arianism) and THIS is supposed to be what makes Evangelicals jump off the Trump Train? I mean, these are people who don't consider Catholics and Orthodox (Nicene Christians) to be Christian at all, and who BARELY profess the Holy Spirit because it's too darn Catholic, and who incessantly preach shit that's directly contradicted by the Bible, LET ALONE THE FUCKING COUNCILS which they barely recognize, and this -- THIS??? -- is what they're worked up over?
(And by "totally hilarious" I obviously mean "I need to crawl in a hole and never come out.")
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:43 PM on December 28, 2016 [27 favorites]
What's particularly amusing about it to me is, he's in the realm of "not even wrong." (Or possibly, "technically correct, which is the best kind of correct!") In fact most scholars or religion would take "professes the Nicene Creed" as an acceptable definition of "Christian," but merely for the purpose of drawing category lines for taxonomizing the whole mess o' denominations, not for the purpose of saying some people are morally acceptable and others aren't. Like, okay, you may be technically correct that someone who thinks Jesus is the first-created thing rather than co-eternal with the Father is not TECHNICALLY Christian but why would it follow that they shouldn't give a religious invocation at whatever government event is requiring an invocation? Because a) Lots of American Christianity is about offshoots that are not quite within the official tradition and b) THE WHOLE THING IS THAT ANYBODY CAN GIVE AN INVOCATION because there's no established religion! She could be Pastafarian and it'd be fine!
But it is TOTALLY HILARIOUS that the usury, the hate, the prosperity gospel, the incessant attacks on the poor, the war-mongering, the guns, the active and deliberate attacks on truth in service of partisan politics, all of that is fine, but suddenly some lady says Jesus is the First Fruits rather than the Only-Begotten (which I will bet you dollars to donuts she does not even know the difference and is probably unaware of Arianism) and THIS is supposed to be what makes Evangelicals jump off the Trump Train? I mean, these are people who don't consider Catholics and Orthodox (Nicene Christians) to be Christian at all, and who BARELY profess the Holy Spirit because it's too darn Catholic, and who incessantly preach shit that's directly contradicted by the Bible, LET ALONE THE FUCKING COUNCILS which they barely recognize, and this -- THIS??? -- is what they're worked up over?
(And by "totally hilarious" I obviously mean "I need to crawl in a hole and never come out.")
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:43 PM on December 28, 2016 [27 favorites]
If anything, perhaps freezing cold weather would keep people inside and away from his speech.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:44 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:44 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
From the article OnceUponATime posted above,
Anyone relying on The New York Times for news over the past eight years would have seen little of genuine importance in most of these stories, and little to challenge the conclusion that Barack Obama has presided, by historical standards, over a virtually entirely scandal-free administration.
Anyone relying on Rush Limbaugh or Fox News would have seen in them a pattern of corruption and malevolence unmatched in American history, and one which the untrustworthy mainstream media deliberately covered up. This is not “fake news.” It is a blatantly ideological distortion of real news.
Agreed, and yet I too care to rail at tronc (tronc!) and The Sunday Morning Yawpfests. I'll allow that it seems fixable, at least in theory.
posted by petebest at 6:45 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyone relying on The New York Times for news over the past eight years would have seen little of genuine importance in most of these stories, and little to challenge the conclusion that Barack Obama has presided, by historical standards, over a virtually entirely scandal-free administration.
Anyone relying on Rush Limbaugh or Fox News would have seen in them a pattern of corruption and malevolence unmatched in American history, and one which the untrustworthy mainstream media deliberately covered up. This is not “fake news.” It is a blatantly ideological distortion of real news.
Agreed, and yet I too care to rail at tronc (tronc!) and The Sunday Morning Yawpfests. I'll allow that it seems fixable, at least in theory.
posted by petebest at 6:45 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump was asked about sanctions against Russia for hacking:
"Asked more generally about sanctions against Russia, he responded: "I think we ought to get on with our lives. I think that computers have complicated lives very greatly. The whole age of computer has made it where nobody knows exactly what is going on. And we have speed and a lot of things and I'm not kind the security that you need. But I have not spoken with the senators and I certainly will be over a period of time."
[exactly as written in pool report transcript]
posted by bluecore at 6:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
"Asked more generally about sanctions against Russia, he responded: "I think we ought to get on with our lives. I think that computers have complicated lives very greatly. The whole age of computer has made it where nobody knows exactly what is going on. And we have speed and a lot of things and I'm not kind the security that you need. But I have not spoken with the senators and I certainly will be over a period of time."
[exactly as written in pool report transcript]
posted by bluecore at 6:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
"The whole age of computer has made it where nobody knows exactly what is going on. And we have speed and a lot of things and I'm not kind the security that you need."
Well, he's not wrong.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:55 PM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
Well, he's not wrong.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:55 PM on December 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
someone who thinks Jesus is the first-created thing
Weren't there already lots of things when Jesus came around? Like mangers and shepherds and stuff? And how did he get in Mary before there was a Mary? I'm so confused.
posted by diogenes at 6:56 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Weren't there already lots of things when Jesus came around? Like mangers and shepherds and stuff? And how did he get in Mary before there was a Mary? I'm so confused.
posted by diogenes at 6:56 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
"White, a 50-year-old grandmother who, like Trump, is on her third marriage, this one to rocker Jonathan Cain of Journey fame . . ."
Ahbheya what now? Was that the sound of space-time tearing again, or did a squirrel eat the power line? First Neil and the DC Housewive and now this? Somebody run go check on Ste- holy shit 2016 is still out there. Nothing! Ha ha! Nobody! Steve McQueen! Now there's a guy y'know . . quite the . . gone more than thirty years now . . so I'll just go back to browsing the used Mustang ads . .
posted by petebest at 6:57 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ahbheya what now? Was that the sound of space-time tearing again, or did a squirrel eat the power line? First Neil and the DC Housewive and now this? Somebody run go check on Ste- holy shit 2016 is still out there. Nothing! Ha ha! Nobody! Steve McQueen! Now there's a guy y'know . . quite the . . gone more than thirty years now . . so I'll just go back to browsing the used Mustang ads . .
posted by petebest at 6:57 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
White, a 50-year-old grandmother who, like Trump, is on her third marriage, this one to rocker Jonathan Cain of Journey fame ...It only wanted this. Anyway, what's a Trump inaugural without a little Arianism? I know I wouldn't want it any other way. If nothing else, it demonstrates that 1600 years later Arianism is still big with the barbarian set.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:59 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
"White, a 50-year-old grandmother who, like Trump, is on her third marriage, this one to rocker Jonathan Cain of Journey fame . . ."
INSERT "DON'T STOP BELIEVING" JOKE HERE...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
INSERT "DON'T STOP BELIEVING" JOKE HERE...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Asked more generally about sanctions against Russia, he responded: "I think we ought to get on with our lives. I think that computers have complicated lives very greatly. The whole age of computer has made it where nobody knows exactly what is going on. And we have speed and a lot of things and I'm not kind the security that you need."
Lol, further down in that twitter feed there's a correction to the transcript, and it's still just as dumb.
posted by diogenes at 7:03 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lol, further down in that twitter feed there's a correction to the transcript, and it's still just as dumb.
posted by diogenes at 7:03 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of course White could get all of the Evangelicals on board if she just told them that she was fighting the Homoousion Agenda.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:03 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 7:03 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
(Also Erick Erickson is bragging on Twitter that he leaves his Christmas lights up for all TWELVE days of Christmas when all the Real Christians (tm) who worry about Nicene Creed orthodoxy and have 12 days of Xmas know that the Christmas season lasts until February 2 and you don't freaking take your lights down until then!)
"Weren't there already lots of things when Jesus came around? Like mangers and shepherds and stuff? And how did he get in Mary before there was a Mary? I'm so confused."
That's when he was INCARNATED -- literally "made meat." His soul/spirit/person is "co-eternal with the Father." (He had to be en-meat-ulated to save humanity.) THIS argument is about whether God-the-Father hung out alone for a while or whether God-the-Son and God-the-Holy-Spirit also existed from the very beginning and IN WHAT EXACT WAY they created one another if in fact they did so. Don't worry about it, though, it's a sort-of dumb theological point about which there were street riots in the 4th century but 99.99% of Christians can't tell you the difference these days.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:04 PM on December 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
"Weren't there already lots of things when Jesus came around? Like mangers and shepherds and stuff? And how did he get in Mary before there was a Mary? I'm so confused."
That's when he was INCARNATED -- literally "made meat." His soul/spirit/person is "co-eternal with the Father." (He had to be en-meat-ulated to save humanity.) THIS argument is about whether God-the-Father hung out alone for a while or whether God-the-Son and God-the-Holy-Spirit also existed from the very beginning and IN WHAT EXACT WAY they created one another if in fact they did so. Don't worry about it, though, it's a sort-of dumb theological point about which there were street riots in the 4th century but 99.99% of Christians can't tell you the difference these days.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:04 PM on December 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
and that's why there will be no press conferences
posted by angrycat at 7:07 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 7:07 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Jesus is both God, and his own son, at the same time. He's also a Force Ghost but frankly that was Lucas going pretty far south without his first wife there to help him, and then its like - well it's in there now so just don't talk about it and we won't have to write a subplot for it. But yeah Jesus is way cool.
posted by petebest at 7:11 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by petebest at 7:11 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Lol, further down in that twitter feed there's a correction to the transcript, and it's still just as dumb.
Oops, apologies. I didn't scroll down (@ replies can be depressing.)
In terms of completeness, the correction is: "We have speed, we have a lot of other things, but I'm not sure we have the kind of security we need."
posted by bluecore at 7:12 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oops, apologies. I didn't scroll down (@ replies can be depressing.)
In terms of completeness, the correction is: "We have speed, we have a lot of other things, but I'm not sure we have the kind of security we need."
posted by bluecore at 7:12 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trump Now Saying Transition Is Smooth
Outside of his Florida estate, Mar-a-Lago, Trump responded to a reporter's question about the transition saying: "Oh, I think very, very smoothly. Very good. You don't think so?" This of course is a major departure from a tweet he sent this morning calling out President Obama. "Doing my best to disregard the many inflammatory President O statements and roadblocks.Thought it was going to be a smooth transition - NOT!" he tweeted. When asked about the tweets on a daily transition call this morning, incoming press secretary Sean Spicer told reporters that the tweets speak for themselves.
posted by futz at 7:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Outside of his Florida estate, Mar-a-Lago, Trump responded to a reporter's question about the transition saying: "Oh, I think very, very smoothly. Very good. You don't think so?" This of course is a major departure from a tweet he sent this morning calling out President Obama. "Doing my best to disregard the many inflammatory President O statements and roadblocks.Thought it was going to be a smooth transition - NOT!" he tweeted. When asked about the tweets on a daily transition call this morning, incoming press secretary Sean Spicer told reporters that the tweets speak for themselves.
posted by futz at 7:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jesus is both God, and his own son, at the same time.
But he isn't his own Grandpa.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:14 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
But he isn't his own Grandpa.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:14 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: computers have complicated lives very greatly.
posted by petebest at 7:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by petebest at 7:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Weren't there already lots of things when Jesus came around?
It's a derail (we can take it to memail if you like) but officially Jesus's birth was just the point at which he became human. Before that he was... an aspect of God.
I do think it's a fairly important point, personally. Is Jesus actually God? Like eternal, all powerful, knows your thoughts God? That God? The one and only? Or is he something more like an angel? Created by God, bringing messages for God, doing miracles on God's behalf, but not actually divine in his own right? (He can't be a second God because, you know, monotheism. So either he's just one aspect of THE God or he's just another one of God's creations.
For most of the history of Christianity, believing that Jesus IS himself divine, "not made. One in being with the Father" has been a defining tenet.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:16 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's a derail (we can take it to memail if you like) but officially Jesus's birth was just the point at which he became human. Before that he was... an aspect of God.
I do think it's a fairly important point, personally. Is Jesus actually God? Like eternal, all powerful, knows your thoughts God? That God? The one and only? Or is he something more like an angel? Created by God, bringing messages for God, doing miracles on God's behalf, but not actually divine in his own right? (He can't be a second God because, you know, monotheism. So either he's just one aspect of THE God or he's just another one of God's creations.
For most of the history of Christianity, believing that Jesus IS himself divine, "not made. One in being with the Father" has been a defining tenet.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:16 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Although very interesting, this erik erikson thing has become a derail.
posted by futz at 7:17 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by futz at 7:17 PM on December 28, 2016
If it's not a big deal, then it's a big deal that it's not, to me...
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:17 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:17 PM on December 28, 2016
Although very interesting, this erik erikson thing has become a derail.
Alas, it's true.
posted by diogenes at 7:19 PM on December 28, 2016
Alas, it's true.
posted by diogenes at 7:19 PM on December 28, 2016
"Asked more generally about sanctions against Russia, he responded: "I think we ought to get on with our lives. I think that computers have complicated lives very greatly. The whole age of computer has made it where nobody knows exactly what is going on. And we have speed and a lot of things and I'm not sure we have the kind the security that you need. But I have not spoken with the senators and I certainly will be over a period of time."THIS ISN'T A THOUGHT.
posted by dis_integration at 7:19 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
(Actually nobody tell Erick Erickson about Candlemas, my greatest fear about dudes like him is that having become disenchanted with Evangelical Christianity they latch on to conservative forms of Catholicism as an even better cudgel to beat people with, with more arcane rules, and convert. REMAIN AN EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY SORT-OF ANGLICAN MAYBE BAPTIST, ERICKSON.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Asked about the loss of Los Angeles, Boston and Manhattan, he responded: "I think we ought to get on with our lives. I think that nuclear war has complicated lives very greatly. The whole age of nuclear has made it where nobody knows exactly what is going on. And we have speed and a lot of things and I'm not kind the security that you need."
(fake)
posted by valkane at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
(fake)
posted by valkane at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
officially Jesus's birth was just the point at which he became human
Officially, according to the Nicene Creed.
Insisting that this matters or ought to matter to a majority of Americans is basically insisting upon the propriety of a certain quantum of public Christian religiosity, and I'd prefer to see it dropped.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Officially, according to the Nicene Creed.
Insisting that this matters or ought to matter to a majority of Americans is basically insisting upon the propriety of a certain quantum of public Christian religiosity, and I'd prefer to see it dropped.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:20 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyway, what's a Trump inaugural without a little Arianism?
Wait, we already had neo-Nazis, AKA Aryans, and now we have more Arians, but they're different? C'mon, 2016 writers, get your shit together.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:24 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
THIS ISN'T A THOUGHT.
It probably counts as a thought. Some synapses must have fired to product those phonemes.
posted by diogenes at 7:25 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
It probably counts as a thought. Some synapses must have fired to product those phonemes.
posted by diogenes at 7:25 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
it will exercise certain portions of the right-wing Christian web for WEEKS.
nah. the stock evangelical response will be a shoulder-shrugging "God can and does use anybody to fulfill his will."
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:27 PM on December 28, 2016
nah. the stock evangelical response will be a shoulder-shrugging "God can and does use anybody to fulfill his will."
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:27 PM on December 28, 2016
Is that the "God is great, God is good" one or the "Ring around the Rosie" one? .
i'm pretty sure its 'rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub'.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:32 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
i'm pretty sure its 'rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub'.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:32 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
who BARELY profess the Holy Spirit because it's too darn Catholic
um, no. i could show you several dozen evangelical megachurches overflowing with babbling tongue-speakers who profess to being possessed by the Holy Spirit on a regular basis.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
um, no. i could show you several dozen evangelical megachurches overflowing with babbling tongue-speakers who profess to being possessed by the Holy Spirit on a regular basis.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is how a collective state of hyperreality is successfully leveraged: create sufficient confusion about what happened and who is responsible by playing on all the easy ways to do so, and push a ton of media content that reinforces your narrative in as many ways as possible, (easily) convincing a large number of people that they actually inhabit the imaginary place you have described to them. Then, call them to action in response to the narrative you have convinced them is real, and what used to be mere ignorance is thus weaponized, because in our induced state of hyperreality cause is no longer coupled to effect, actions no longer need to follow reasons, and we don't even care that there is a difference between truth and fiction or fact and falsehood.
Applied Semiotics? Some kind of reverse deconstruction, reality as text and and we never stop experiencing the text?
posted by vrakatar at 7:47 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Applied Semiotics? Some kind of reverse deconstruction, reality as text and and we never stop experiencing the text?
posted by vrakatar at 7:47 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mod note: While I actually totally want to argue about the Holy Spirit in American Evangelical Christianity and have been a gleeful participant in this derail I supose the fact that we're all getting flagged means we should probably drop it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
"Asked more generally about sanctions against Russia, he responded: "I think we ought to get on with our lives. I think that computers have complicated lives very greatly. The whole age of computer has made it where nobody knows exactly what is going on. And we have speed and a lot of things and I'm not kind the security that you need."
Do we *really* know that he's not a Markov chain? He says he is not a Markov chain, but have we seen his birth certificate? A lot of people are asking questions....
posted by stet at 7:52 PM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
Do we *really* know that he's not a Markov chain? He says he is not a Markov chain, but have we seen his birth certificate? A lot of people are asking questions....
posted by stet at 7:52 PM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
It would make a great post in its own right Eyebrows.
posted by futz at 7:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by futz at 7:54 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
It would make a great post in its own right Eyebrows.
Oh please let's! Because nitpicking Christian theology seems so FUN and light-hearted right now. (Not sarcasm!!!!)
posted by Ruki at 8:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Oh please let's! Because nitpicking Christian theology seems so FUN and light-hearted right now. (Not sarcasm!!!!)
posted by Ruki at 8:01 PM on December 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Betsy Woodruff, The Daily Beast: Shady Pastor to Pray With Trump At Inauguration
Think of Paula White’s ministry as the church version of Trump University. She preaches the prosperity gospel, an approach to Christianity that is, shall we say, unorthodox. Prosperity gospel preachers teach that God wants people to be rich, and that he makes them wealthy as a sign of his blessing and favor; the richer you are, the more God loves you.posted by tonycpsu at 8:07 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Because, you know, Jesus wore wingtips and a Rolex.
With Trump taking roughly ∞% of the evangelical vote, is that really an "unorthodox" viewpoint anymore?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:09 PM on December 28, 2016
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:09 PM on December 28, 2016
Jesus wore wingtips.
well, deck shoes when on his yacht.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:12 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
well, deck shoes when on his yacht.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:12 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
And on the third comment, he derailed again, saying, "This I previewed not, for it is apt." And there were, amongst the thread, a haven of handwringing huffalumps, who shouted ho-susannahs for the topic of many became more.
Quidnunc VI:8-11
posted by petebest at 8:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Quidnunc VI:8-11
posted by petebest at 8:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Hamilton Nolan, Deadspin: There's More To This Than Globalization
Globalization! Globalization! Booga booga booga! The generalized backlash against globalization has been cited as the underlying reason for Brexit, Donald Trump, and the wave of right-wing populism now sweeping much of the Western world. [...] But “globalization” is much too broad a buzzword to get at what has essentially been a 30-year project to deregulate industries, weaken labor, and generally ensure that the gains from globalization all flow to the very rich, rather than being shared broadly. [...]posted by tonycpsu at 8:15 PM on December 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
A new research paper by Harvard economist Elhanan Helpman attempts to quantify just how much of the wage inequality is actually caused by globalization and free trade. Helpman notes that the “college wage premium”—how much more college graduates earn than non-graduates—fully doubled from 1979 to 2012, a change that has widened and solidified the gap between the haves and have-nots in our economy. Though he finds that free trade and offshoring of jobs have “adversely affected certain workers,” he concludes that in general, the role of globalization in driving inequality is not as big as generally believed: [...]
Technological change has affected our economy more than liberalization of trade barriers. Ultimately, though, inequality is a distribution problem, meaning that it is a political choice. As long as a rich minority has the power to design laws in a way that benefits them rather than everyone, inequality will persist.
"Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times."
- Kurt Vonnegut
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:17 PM on December 28, 2016 [36 favorites]
- Kurt Vonnegut
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:17 PM on December 28, 2016 [36 favorites]
I think it's concern trolling, and it's getting tiresome.
No... the context was a claim that a heavily medicaid-dependent county voted for a Trump who's committed to reducing medicaid, as an example of Trump supporters rejecting a practical, workable solution. I think you can read that paper and hear Trump's statements on health care and reasonably conclude that he's not committed to doing that. His position is flawed, but it's a firm enough commitment to improving the situation that if he makes health care noticeably worse for a lot of people over the next four years, he's likely a one-term president. You can also reasonably argue based on his character and history that his commitment isn't worth anything, but I don't think that means people in Owsley County were rejecting medicaid when they voted for him.
posted by Coventry at 8:18 PM on December 28, 2016
No... the context was a claim that a heavily medicaid-dependent county voted for a Trump who's committed to reducing medicaid, as an example of Trump supporters rejecting a practical, workable solution. I think you can read that paper and hear Trump's statements on health care and reasonably conclude that he's not committed to doing that. His position is flawed, but it's a firm enough commitment to improving the situation that if he makes health care noticeably worse for a lot of people over the next four years, he's likely a one-term president. You can also reasonably argue based on his character and history that his commitment isn't worth anything, but I don't think that means people in Owsley County were rejecting medicaid when they voted for him.
posted by Coventry at 8:18 PM on December 28, 2016
Insisting that this matters or ought to matter to a majority of Americans is basically insisting upon the propriety of a certain quantum of public Christian religiosity, and I'd prefer to see it dropped.
Just to say that the invocation wasn't of interest because a whole bunch of Americans thought it mattered. It's interesting only because it (once again, for the billionth time) exposes the utter bankruptcy of the modern "evangelical" movement. If they were really such fired-up Christians for whom seeing politicians express a Christian identity and do Christian things were really important, then they would be up in arms over Trump selecting a speaker whose stated beliefs violate foundational Christian ideas, and they would be assholes trying to force their religion on everyone.
The fact that they just don't give a shit implies that their christianity is an inch deep, and that they're better lumped in with that big bunch of traditional-minded people who call themselves "Christian" but who seem to really worship 'Merica. People who aren't conservative because their faith calls them to it, but who adopt the trappings of Christianity because that's what conservative people do. And they're still assholes trying to force it on everyone.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:21 PM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
Just to say that the invocation wasn't of interest because a whole bunch of Americans thought it mattered. It's interesting only because it (once again, for the billionth time) exposes the utter bankruptcy of the modern "evangelical" movement. If they were really such fired-up Christians for whom seeing politicians express a Christian identity and do Christian things were really important, then they would be up in arms over Trump selecting a speaker whose stated beliefs violate foundational Christian ideas, and they would be assholes trying to force their religion on everyone.
The fact that they just don't give a shit implies that their christianity is an inch deep, and that they're better lumped in with that big bunch of traditional-minded people who call themselves "Christian" but who seem to really worship 'Merica. People who aren't conservative because their faith calls them to it, but who adopt the trappings of Christianity because that's what conservative people do. And they're still assholes trying to force it on everyone.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:21 PM on December 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
Marie Claire: A Rockette Speaks Out
That Marie Claire article that zachlipton linked to is really worth a read. Some more quotes:
Mary says that to her knowledge, no women of color have signed up to perform that day. "It's almost worse to have 18 pretty white girls behind this man who supports so many hate groups," she says. The lack of diversity in the kick line is "embarrassing" on a normal day, she says, and will only be more pointed in January. "They're going to be branded in history as one of those women," Mary says. "How's it going to look?"
"The majority of the stage crew are Trump supporters; there's a 'Make America Great Again' bumper sticker on the crew doors at the side of the stage."
But the majority of the staff skews liberal, she says, especially considering the many LGBT employees at Radio City. "It's the ensemble. It's the people in our wardrobe and hair department, some of whom are transgender," she says. "These are our friends and our family, who we've worked with for years. It's a basic human-rights issue. We have immigrants in the show. I feel like dancing for Trump would be disrespecting the men and women who work with us, the people we care about."
In these final shows since the news broke, Mary says she's already noticed a change in the Radio City audiences. "There have been a lot of empty seats this week, the day before Christmas. There aren't usually empty seats the day before Christmas," she says. At the same time, she's not really surprised. "Why would they want to pay $100+ for a ticket to support someone who doesn't support all human rights? Women's rights?"
posted by longdaysjourney at 8:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [33 favorites]
That Marie Claire article that zachlipton linked to is really worth a read. Some more quotes:
Mary says that to her knowledge, no women of color have signed up to perform that day. "It's almost worse to have 18 pretty white girls behind this man who supports so many hate groups," she says. The lack of diversity in the kick line is "embarrassing" on a normal day, she says, and will only be more pointed in January. "They're going to be branded in history as one of those women," Mary says. "How's it going to look?"
"The majority of the stage crew are Trump supporters; there's a 'Make America Great Again' bumper sticker on the crew doors at the side of the stage."
But the majority of the staff skews liberal, she says, especially considering the many LGBT employees at Radio City. "It's the ensemble. It's the people in our wardrobe and hair department, some of whom are transgender," she says. "These are our friends and our family, who we've worked with for years. It's a basic human-rights issue. We have immigrants in the show. I feel like dancing for Trump would be disrespecting the men and women who work with us, the people we care about."
In these final shows since the news broke, Mary says she's already noticed a change in the Radio City audiences. "There have been a lot of empty seats this week, the day before Christmas. There aren't usually empty seats the day before Christmas," she says. At the same time, she's not really surprised. "Why would they want to pay $100+ for a ticket to support someone who doesn't support all human rights? Women's rights?"
posted by longdaysjourney at 8:38 PM on December 28, 2016 [33 favorites]
5. Price transparency. A good idea, but not nearly enough. You pass out from appendicitis and need an emergency appendectomy, is the EMT going to call your next-of-kin and ask how much shopping around you want to do from the ambulance? It's two hours to the cheaper hospital, maybe you can chance an extra 10% risk of dying to save a few thousand, maybe not. It's not like the ambulance driver knows ahead of time what procedure you're going to need anyway.
Just a FYI from someone who's worked on price transparency initiatives: this is not how price transparency works. Price transparency initiatives focus solely on 'shoppable' conditions, or in other words, elective procedures, like hip/knee replacements or childbirth, or even imaging. You would never see price data published for emergent procedures like an appendectomy, and it's not something a provider would know, anyway, with universal PT - all PT dictates is that the data have to be published somewhere and in a format that's easy to browse.
Absent a single payer system, PT is actually a pretty good idea - if you're a large employer, for example, you can use price data along with quality data to nudge your employees towards high-value providers for common stuff like knee replacements, and everybody more or less wins.
But yeah, the rest of Trump's healthcare proposals are one collective dumpster fire, though, I agree.
posted by un petit cadeau at 8:49 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Just a FYI from someone who's worked on price transparency initiatives: this is not how price transparency works. Price transparency initiatives focus solely on 'shoppable' conditions, or in other words, elective procedures, like hip/knee replacements or childbirth, or even imaging. You would never see price data published for emergent procedures like an appendectomy, and it's not something a provider would know, anyway, with universal PT - all PT dictates is that the data have to be published somewhere and in a format that's easy to browse.
Absent a single payer system, PT is actually a pretty good idea - if you're a large employer, for example, you can use price data along with quality data to nudge your employees towards high-value providers for common stuff like knee replacements, and everybody more or less wins.
But yeah, the rest of Trump's healthcare proposals are one collective dumpster fire, though, I agree.
posted by un petit cadeau at 8:49 PM on December 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Michael Moore's 5-Point Plan For 2017 And Donald Trump
3. FORM YOUR OWN RAPID RESPONSE TEAM.
posted by philip-random at 10:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
3. FORM YOUR OWN RAPID RESPONSE TEAM.
posted by philip-random at 10:23 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've heard quite enough from Michael Moore, thank you.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:33 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:33 PM on December 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
mazola sez: 3. FORM YOUR OWN RAPID RESPONSE TEAM !!!
posted by mazola at 10:39 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mazola at 10:39 PM on December 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump takes credit for 8,000 jobs, talks with Obama
Trump said the addition of 8,000 jobs was "because of what's happening and the spirit and the hope."
But but but
Trump isn't responsible for Sprint bringing 5,000 jobs to the US (or 8,000)
President-elect Donald Trump said he was contacted by Sprint executives today and told that the company was making an investment in domestic jobs, according to Reuters and Bloomberg.
Sprint issued a press release, patting itself on the back for the deal...
"We believe it is critical for business and government to partner together to create more job opportunities in the U.S. and ensure prosperity for all Americans."
"I just spoke with the head person," Trump told Bloomberg. "He said because of me they're doing 5,000 jobs in this country."
Here's the problem: Despite what Trump and the press release from Sprint said (and what its CEO recently tweeted), these jobs were part of a previous announcement from Softbank (Sprint's parent company) CEO Masayoshi Son -- not the direct result of working with Trump.
When I reached out to a Sprint spokeswoman asking if the announcement was a direct result of working with Trump or part of a pre-existing deal, she copy and pasted the press release I'd sent along with my first email. I responded saying I already had the press release and asked again if this was a direct result of working with Trump or part of a pre-existing deal in place. I tagged Sprint in a tweet about the situation, and it wasn't until after that started getting retweeted that the spokesperson responded.
"This is part of the 50,000 jobs that Masa previously announced," she said. "This total will be a combination of newly created jobs and bringing some existing jobs back to the U.S."
This is where we are, folks: Our president-elect is tying his name to something he didn't have anything to do with, much like he did with "saving" 1,100 jobs at HVAC company Carrier, including 300 that weren't moving to Mexico in the first place. In November, Trump exaggerated that he stopped Ford from moving a Kentucky production plant to Mexico. In reality Ford announced it wouldn't move production of one model line to Mexico.
The most troubling thing here is that Sprint played along, even though, when pressed, it admitted the claims weren't the result of working with Trump.
Looks like everyone is bowing down to the Liar PEOTUS. This is so very wrong and disturbing.
posted by futz at 10:43 PM on December 28, 2016 [36 favorites]
Trump said the addition of 8,000 jobs was "because of what's happening and the spirit and the hope."
But but but
Trump isn't responsible for Sprint bringing 5,000 jobs to the US (or 8,000)
President-elect Donald Trump said he was contacted by Sprint executives today and told that the company was making an investment in domestic jobs, according to Reuters and Bloomberg.
Sprint issued a press release, patting itself on the back for the deal...
"We believe it is critical for business and government to partner together to create more job opportunities in the U.S. and ensure prosperity for all Americans."
"I just spoke with the head person," Trump told Bloomberg. "He said because of me they're doing 5,000 jobs in this country."
Here's the problem: Despite what Trump and the press release from Sprint said (and what its CEO recently tweeted), these jobs were part of a previous announcement from Softbank (Sprint's parent company) CEO Masayoshi Son -- not the direct result of working with Trump.
When I reached out to a Sprint spokeswoman asking if the announcement was a direct result of working with Trump or part of a pre-existing deal, she copy and pasted the press release I'd sent along with my first email. I responded saying I already had the press release and asked again if this was a direct result of working with Trump or part of a pre-existing deal in place. I tagged Sprint in a tweet about the situation, and it wasn't until after that started getting retweeted that the spokesperson responded.
"This is part of the 50,000 jobs that Masa previously announced," she said. "This total will be a combination of newly created jobs and bringing some existing jobs back to the U.S."
This is where we are, folks: Our president-elect is tying his name to something he didn't have anything to do with, much like he did with "saving" 1,100 jobs at HVAC company Carrier, including 300 that weren't moving to Mexico in the first place. In November, Trump exaggerated that he stopped Ford from moving a Kentucky production plant to Mexico. In reality Ford announced it wouldn't move production of one model line to Mexico.
The most troubling thing here is that Sprint played along, even though, when pressed, it admitted the claims weren't the result of working with Trump.
Looks like everyone is bowing down to the Liar PEOTUS. This is so very wrong and disturbing.
posted by futz at 10:43 PM on December 28, 2016 [36 favorites]
"This is part of the 50,000 jobs that Masa previously announced," she said. "
TRUMP TEAM: Wait, you thought we meant 'again,' as 'once upon a time?' OH! No. We meant 'again,' as in, 'same as last week.' Awk-ward!
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:05 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
TRUMP TEAM: Wait, you thought we meant 'again,' as 'once upon a time?' OH! No. We meant 'again,' as in, 'same as last week.' Awk-ward!
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:05 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 PM on December 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm really feeling those repeated blows to the head, David Byrne.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:11 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 11:11 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
And SPRINT TEAM blatently conspires...Oops LIES to give peotus good PR.
sprint is off my list if I ever have to make a provder choice.
posted by futz at 11:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
sprint is off my list if I ever have to make a provder choice.
posted by futz at 11:13 PM on December 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Brb, going to rage tweet at sprint. I am a newbie so I hope I do it correctly :/
posted by futz at 11:17 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by futz at 11:17 PM on December 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm sure Trump would be willing to reconsider the previously rejected on anti-trust grounds Sprint/T-mobile merger. A friendly press release and complementary tweets are way cheaper than lobbying
posted by Arbac at 11:36 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Arbac at 11:36 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Don King Appears With Trump to Preach About the Middle East
Boxing promoter Don King on Wednesday appeared alongside President-elect Donald Trump to preach about peace in the Middle East. Waving an Israeli flag alongside an American one, King praised Trump as “the leader that can make it happen.” “The Israeli flag is about peace, you know, peace in the Middle East,” he said outside Trump’s Mar-A-Lago estate, where the president-elect offered remarks to journalists on Wednesday. “We want everyone to come together and as one unit and make things happen,” King said, adding that Trump would soon “make America great again.” Trump also promised that his handling of issues between Israel and Palestine would leave everyone “very impressed” after Jan. 20. It’s not clear what experience King has in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, nor what kind of expertise he could possibly be offering on the highly complex issue.posted by kirkaracha at 11:53 PM on December 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
What do you guys make of this sunny side of the street analysis claiming that the narrative around Trump/racism is overblown?
posted by prefpara at 2:39 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by prefpara at 2:39 AM on December 29, 2016
oh good lord its state star codex again
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:41 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:41 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Loosefilter, thank you for your post on hyperreality. It was really brilliantly stated.
There's an element to this that you didn't touch on, that has been with humanity since abstract thought began, and that does not require technological intermediation (although it helps), which I think is immensely important to recognize and understand.
"Civilization" is a societal state consisting of people of conscience inhabiting a shared reality that relies on mutual trust to operate. Reifying that shared state causes it to persist, and as a consequence, people who have never doubted it develop an unconscious tendency to proactively assume that the basis for trust - that is, the presence of some compatible form of conscience - exists in those who they encounter, whether in real life or through intermediated experience. It's a form of shorthand, greasing the wheels of transactional encounters, reducing the static friction that two individuals, unknown to each other, must overcome in order to do business together. Naturally, they feel betrayed when they come to realize that their trust was ill-founded, even though nobody ever promised them parity. But, far more importantly, the tendency of the civilized to project compatible conscience upon others provides reasonably intelligent and perceptive individuals who may be operating from a different understanding of reality with the perfect camouflage to exist right alongside everybody else indefinitely. Such people may be benign, or even benevolent, but they can also be malignant.
A member of the malignant subclass of these individuals is uniquely positioned to cause a great deal of harm and havoc right under everybody's noses, because the more trusting people are, the more unaware they are of the camouflage they themselves furnish these individuals. Paradoxically, those who call out a malignant actor often find themselves the target of suspicion instead, since they are overtly disrupting the sense of trust that is essential for civilization to operate smoothly.
The long and the short of it is, because the projected camouflage is itself invisible to the projector, it is extremely difficult to convince someone to perceive what is beneath it. If they don't want to believe that the monster exists, they simply won't. You can provide fact after fact, example after example, until you're blue in the face, and a stunningly high percentage of otherwise sensible people will nevertheless rationalize your behavior and draw conclusions about your state of mind rather than examine their own, even while they themselves are being victimized by the monster.
In the case of Trump, nobody should have a shadow of a doubt that he is malevolent, based on his demonstrated cruelty, endless gaslighting, trolling of the public, etc. His press conference with Don King last night is just more of the same. He is playing the entire nation for fools, and the entire nation will be all a-twitter today about his latest antic, thus confirming his play and giving him exactly what he wants and expects
Similarly, nobody should have any doubt that he is purposeful, based on the fact that he has successfully employed his techniques to achieve immense power. If people do some honest self-searching, they can recognize the impulses that drive him, grossly distorted though they are in comparison to themselves. We all have id. We can admit this about ourselves, and recognize that what Trump wants is to lay his enemies low. And his enemies are all who would oppose him. And because he is cruel and without conscience, all people of conscience eventually become his enemies, because conscience underpins the trust that allows the shared reality of civilization to persist.
Yet, somehow, a great many people, including here, still believe that at worst he is a mere buffoon, a mere crook who wants to loot the treasury, a mere accident of history. No. He is a malignant creature in pursuit of power, and his record and rhetoric demonstrate that he will wield power to disrupt and dismantle other power structures. And he will do it always and only to serve his own needs. Those who believe he cares about his children in the way that they do, or would, are just projecting more camouflage onto him. There is no reason to assume that he loves his children. There is no reason to assume he cares what outlasts him. Indeed, there is ample evidence to the contrary.
For the love of all that's sacred, I hope people will knock the dust off their synapses soon.
posted by perspicio at 2:55 AM on December 29, 2016 [50 favorites]
There's an element to this that you didn't touch on, that has been with humanity since abstract thought began, and that does not require technological intermediation (although it helps), which I think is immensely important to recognize and understand.
"Civilization" is a societal state consisting of people of conscience inhabiting a shared reality that relies on mutual trust to operate. Reifying that shared state causes it to persist, and as a consequence, people who have never doubted it develop an unconscious tendency to proactively assume that the basis for trust - that is, the presence of some compatible form of conscience - exists in those who they encounter, whether in real life or through intermediated experience. It's a form of shorthand, greasing the wheels of transactional encounters, reducing the static friction that two individuals, unknown to each other, must overcome in order to do business together. Naturally, they feel betrayed when they come to realize that their trust was ill-founded, even though nobody ever promised them parity. But, far more importantly, the tendency of the civilized to project compatible conscience upon others provides reasonably intelligent and perceptive individuals who may be operating from a different understanding of reality with the perfect camouflage to exist right alongside everybody else indefinitely. Such people may be benign, or even benevolent, but they can also be malignant.
A member of the malignant subclass of these individuals is uniquely positioned to cause a great deal of harm and havoc right under everybody's noses, because the more trusting people are, the more unaware they are of the camouflage they themselves furnish these individuals. Paradoxically, those who call out a malignant actor often find themselves the target of suspicion instead, since they are overtly disrupting the sense of trust that is essential for civilization to operate smoothly.
The long and the short of it is, because the projected camouflage is itself invisible to the projector, it is extremely difficult to convince someone to perceive what is beneath it. If they don't want to believe that the monster exists, they simply won't. You can provide fact after fact, example after example, until you're blue in the face, and a stunningly high percentage of otherwise sensible people will nevertheless rationalize your behavior and draw conclusions about your state of mind rather than examine their own, even while they themselves are being victimized by the monster.
In the case of Trump, nobody should have a shadow of a doubt that he is malevolent, based on his demonstrated cruelty, endless gaslighting, trolling of the public, etc. His press conference with Don King last night is just more of the same. He is playing the entire nation for fools, and the entire nation will be all a-twitter today about his latest antic, thus confirming his play and giving him exactly what he wants and expects
Similarly, nobody should have any doubt that he is purposeful, based on the fact that he has successfully employed his techniques to achieve immense power. If people do some honest self-searching, they can recognize the impulses that drive him, grossly distorted though they are in comparison to themselves. We all have id. We can admit this about ourselves, and recognize that what Trump wants is to lay his enemies low. And his enemies are all who would oppose him. And because he is cruel and without conscience, all people of conscience eventually become his enemies, because conscience underpins the trust that allows the shared reality of civilization to persist.
Yet, somehow, a great many people, including here, still believe that at worst he is a mere buffoon, a mere crook who wants to loot the treasury, a mere accident of history. No. He is a malignant creature in pursuit of power, and his record and rhetoric demonstrate that he will wield power to disrupt and dismantle other power structures. And he will do it always and only to serve his own needs. Those who believe he cares about his children in the way that they do, or would, are just projecting more camouflage onto him. There is no reason to assume that he loves his children. There is no reason to assume he cares what outlasts him. Indeed, there is ample evidence to the contrary.
For the love of all that's sacred, I hope people will knock the dust off their synapses soon.
posted by perspicio at 2:55 AM on December 29, 2016 [50 favorites]
What do you guys make of this sunny side of the street analysis claiming that the narrative around Trump/racism is overblown?
The narrative around the racism of his supporters isn't overblown, nor are the many claims brought out about specific incidents of action and speech in Trump's campaign and from his history. As to the other specific claims the author of that piece brings forth, they too are certainly things he said and may sometimes sort of believe depending on his mood or who he's intent on wooing in a given moment. Betting on those moments as opposed to the others, where the bluntness of the bigotry was often outside the norms of campaigning, at least since Wallace, is likely not going to go well.
Trump will do what suits his interests. His interests right now are more aligned with the far right than any other group, so he'll throw them the bones most of the time. He has no permanent allegiances, however, so, sure, he could randomly act in the favor of minority groups at times too if it gains him something, but to do so he'll have to act in opposition to most of the beliefs of those he's taken on as a cabinet and advisers, so that might also tell you something. He's assembled a large group of people as his cabinet and staff, and many of them have histories of pretty extreme bigotry. So if that's who he's going to run the country with, I would expect them to act on their history of beliefs.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:03 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The narrative around the racism of his supporters isn't overblown, nor are the many claims brought out about specific incidents of action and speech in Trump's campaign and from his history. As to the other specific claims the author of that piece brings forth, they too are certainly things he said and may sometimes sort of believe depending on his mood or who he's intent on wooing in a given moment. Betting on those moments as opposed to the others, where the bluntness of the bigotry was often outside the norms of campaigning, at least since Wallace, is likely not going to go well.
Trump will do what suits his interests. His interests right now are more aligned with the far right than any other group, so he'll throw them the bones most of the time. He has no permanent allegiances, however, so, sure, he could randomly act in the favor of minority groups at times too if it gains him something, but to do so he'll have to act in opposition to most of the beliefs of those he's taken on as a cabinet and advisers, so that might also tell you something. He's assembled a large group of people as his cabinet and staff, and many of them have histories of pretty extreme bigotry. So if that's who he's going to run the country with, I would expect them to act on their history of beliefs.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:03 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
@angrysigh
black mirror episode where people keep infighting on social media over tiny political differences and alienating each other as fascism wins
posted by Wordshore at 3:10 AM on December 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
black mirror episode where people keep infighting on social media over tiny political differences and alienating each other as fascism wins
posted by Wordshore at 3:10 AM on December 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Oops, lost part of my comment there. The author of the piece spends a lot of time trying to decontextualize an awful lot of corroborating information that suggests a strong association with bigotry, the volume alone is a little telling, and pushes the terms to better fit the argument, making it about "openly racist" versus simply "racist" in multifaceted forms. (The author jumps from "openly" to subconsciously as if it were an express bus with no stops in-between.)
I would go through each section and try to point out some of the ways the author is cherry picking info and altering terms of debate, but I've not the time. Is the author wrong entirely? Hard to say. I don't really disagree about the way people push hyperbolic statements as arguments, which hasn't been all that helpful over my lifetime. And Trump is not much of an ideologue or zealot for any belief outside his own family's wealth and power, and has changed statements on virtually everything he's professed to believe beyond that. So trying to predict specific actions he'll take is a little foolish since he doesn't have any clear set of values and is often more reactive than directly initiating actions.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:21 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would go through each section and try to point out some of the ways the author is cherry picking info and altering terms of debate, but I've not the time. Is the author wrong entirely? Hard to say. I don't really disagree about the way people push hyperbolic statements as arguments, which hasn't been all that helpful over my lifetime. And Trump is not much of an ideologue or zealot for any belief outside his own family's wealth and power, and has changed statements on virtually everything he's professed to believe beyond that. So trying to predict specific actions he'll take is a little foolish since he doesn't have any clear set of values and is often more reactive than directly initiating actions.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:21 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
She could be Pastafarian and it'd be fine!
Perhaps not too much of an exaggeration—Mormonism isn't even conventionally monotheistic, so I would think that anyone who wasn't bothered by voting for Romney isn't going to have an objection to a particular person being at Trump's inauguration.
posted by XMLicious at 3:46 AM on December 29, 2016
What do you guys make of this sunny side of the street analysis claiming that the narrative around Trump/racism is overblown?
I read the whole thing - the author makes some decent points and lays out fair numbers. They also seem to conveniently ignore a lot of things. Like only once do they mention Trump's eight-year birther campaign, which is explicitly racist and an appeal to white people with white supremacist attitudes (like they write it off as something that would be "harmless wackiness" if Obama was white - fucking duh dude, the whole point is that there would be no birther conspiracy had Obama been white). No mention of Central Park Five. No mention of housing discrimination.
The authors definition of "white supremacy" seems to be limited to "card-carrying member of a white supremacist hate group" and not "the history, attitudes, and policy that America was built upon".
posted by windbox at 4:07 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I read the whole thing - the author makes some decent points and lays out fair numbers. They also seem to conveniently ignore a lot of things. Like only once do they mention Trump's eight-year birther campaign, which is explicitly racist and an appeal to white people with white supremacist attitudes (like they write it off as something that would be "harmless wackiness" if Obama was white - fucking duh dude, the whole point is that there would be no birther conspiracy had Obama been white). No mention of Central Park Five. No mention of housing discrimination.
The authors definition of "white supremacy" seems to be limited to "card-carrying member of a white supremacist hate group" and not "the history, attitudes, and policy that America was built upon".
posted by windbox at 4:07 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
The authors definition of "white supremacy" seems to be limited to "card-carrying member of a white supremacist hate group" and not "the history, attitudes, and policy that America was built upon".
Construct straw-man. Destroy straw-man. Repeat.
And with that, I have to leave these threads again.
posted by mikelieman at 4:19 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Construct straw-man. Destroy straw-man. Repeat.
And with that, I have to leave these threads again.
posted by mikelieman at 4:19 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sabrina Siddiqui—Reporting while Muslim: how I covered the US presidential election
posted by XMLicious at 4:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 4:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there a reason we're doing the Slate Star Codex thing again? It wasn't so enjoyable last month.
posted by zachlipton at 4:29 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 4:29 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know what the Slate Star Codex is or what thing happened about it, and did not mean to stir up some kind of mefi trouble. If my question was the precursor to some kind of quagmire, I am happy to abandon it.
posted by prefpara at 4:31 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by prefpara at 4:31 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
De Blasio administration orders reopening of 56th St. outside Trump Tower due to pressure from local businesses losing money: “Since Election Day, the closed and barricaded street looked and felt like a war zone, and it was directly affecting the bottom line of the hardworking business owners.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:57 AM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:57 AM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
The most troubling thing here is that Sprint played along, even though, when pressed, it admitted the claims weren't the result of working with Trump.
I'm sure the lawyers are lawyering as hard as they can on their PR, but I would love to see some securities fraud class actions against companies that pull this shit.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:01 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm sure the lawyers are lawyering as hard as they can on their PR, but I would love to see some securities fraud class actions against companies that pull this shit.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:01 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
What maybe appropriate reading for these "interesting" times can be found in the Complete Anti - Fascist Reading List.
posted by adamvasco at 5:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 5:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Woah. I was having the weirdest dream that former boxing promoter Don King was standing outside Trump's house waving an Israeli flag and lecturing reporters on how Trump's going to create peace in The Middle East . . .
Aaigh!
AAIIGHHH!!
Guys I think the thing's hooked up wrong
posted by petebest at 5:32 AM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Aaigh!
AAIIGHHH!!
Guys I think the thing's hooked up wrong
posted by petebest at 5:32 AM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
This guy on Twitter seems to have gotten into a fight with the Auschwitz Museum. Good morning.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:32 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:32 AM on December 29, 2016
This guy on Twitter seems to have gotten into a fight with the Auschwitz Museum. Good morning.
posted by Talez at 5:40 AM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Angering leftists by being too pro-Israel for their taste. Good.This is what I hate about this aspect of politics. It's just about pissing off the other side. I mean, if you have a well reasoned opinion on why an apartheid Israel is a good thing (unlikely but I'll at least listen) I'm all ears but this being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian just makes me want to switch off and I hate switching off.
posted by Talez at 5:40 AM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is what I hate about this aspect of politics Twitter.
It's Trump's most-favored medium. Let that soak in. Fox News:Twitter:.Bourbon:Bath Salts
posted by petebest at 5:46 AM on December 29, 2016
It's Trump's most-favored medium. Let that soak in. Fox News:Twitter:.Bourbon:Bath Salts
posted by petebest at 5:46 AM on December 29, 2016
I think you can read that paper and hear Trump's statements on health care and reasonably conclude...
"Trump's statements" and "reasonably conclude" don't even belong in the same sentence.
posted by diogenes at 6:36 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Trump's statements" and "reasonably conclude" don't even belong in the same sentence.
posted by diogenes at 6:36 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
For example, what should I reasonably conclude from his recent statements on Russian sanctions? That he's brain damaged?
posted by diogenes at 6:38 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 6:38 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
this being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian just makes me want to switch off
That's pretty much the goal, it seems.
posted by Rykey at 6:39 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
That's pretty much the goal, it seems.
posted by Rykey at 6:39 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
That's pretty much the goal, it seems.
For us not to listen to them? I don't mean switching off politics. Like my mind just checks out when they're being deliberately antagonistic.
posted by Talez at 6:46 AM on December 29, 2016
For us not to listen to them? I don't mean switching off politics. Like my mind just checks out when they're being deliberately antagonistic.
posted by Talez at 6:46 AM on December 29, 2016
@realdonaldtrump: My Administration will follow two simple rules: BUY AMERICAN and HIRE AMERICAN! #USA
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:56 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:56 AM on December 29, 2016
@realdonaldtrump: My Administration will follow two simple rules: BUY AMERICAN and HIRE AMERICAN! #USA
He does realize that the law has been literally that since 1933, right?
posted by Talez at 6:59 AM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
He does realize that the law has been literally that since 1933, right?
posted by Talez at 6:59 AM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
looks like he forgot to include the third rule of THE LIVING WILL ENVY THE DEAD
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:00 AM on December 29, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:00 AM on December 29, 2016 [28 favorites]
And yet, Trump companies continue to seek visas for foreign workers.
posted by marshmallow peep at 7:09 AM on December 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by marshmallow peep at 7:09 AM on December 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Given his penchant for talking up American manufacturing, I wonder why Trump seems to have it in for Boeing, between threatening to cancel the new Air Force One as well as scuttle the Iran deal, which ended up as a windfall for Boeing. Not to mention the fact that Boeing is one of the major corporate presences in SC, where it was lured by his new UN ambassador with tax breaks and union busting. Is there some animosity there, or just the usual randomness and incoherence of the president elect?
posted by TedW at 7:13 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by TedW at 7:13 AM on December 29, 2016
David Fahrenthold has a long summary of his Trump Foundation investigation up on the Washington Post site this morning.
posted by Surely This at 7:17 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Surely This at 7:17 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
White House sources tell MSNBC that the US will "announce covert action" against Russia for election hacking.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:18 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:18 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think their definition of the word "covert" aligns with mine.
posted by corb at 7:24 AM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:24 AM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
I don't think their definition of the word "covert" aligns with mine.
I dunno. In every sitcom I've ever seen announcing a secret action is coming drives the other person nuts and they become suspicious and paranoid.
posted by Talez at 7:32 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I dunno. In every sitcom I've ever seen announcing a secret action is coming drives the other person nuts and they become suspicious and paranoid.
posted by Talez at 7:32 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there some animosity there, or just the usual randomness and incoherence of the president elect?
It's the usual but it's not random.
He harrumphs out fake controversies which he then takes credit for solving through deals already in place (or obvious compromises arranged by more reasonable underlings, with no relation to his bombastic proclamations).
And he tries to pit competitors (social groups, companies, his own advisors, etc) against each other because everything is basically a beauty or popularity contest, and the only strategy he understands is divide and conquer. Well, that and the retroactive justification of radical dishonesty by later recasting it as pure rhetoric.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:35 AM on December 29, 2016
It's the usual but it's not random.
He harrumphs out fake controversies which he then takes credit for solving through deals already in place (or obvious compromises arranged by more reasonable underlings, with no relation to his bombastic proclamations).
And he tries to pit competitors (social groups, companies, his own advisors, etc) against each other because everything is basically a beauty or popularity contest, and the only strategy he understands is divide and conquer. Well, that and the retroactive justification of radical dishonesty by later recasting it as pure rhetoric.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:35 AM on December 29, 2016
I dunno. In every sitcom I've ever seen announcing a secret action is coming drives the other person nuts and they become suspicious and paranoid.
A secret plan to make Putin 'suspicious and paranoid' would be like a secret plan to turn Trump into an asshole.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:38 AM on December 29, 2016 [44 favorites]
A secret plan to make Putin 'suspicious and paranoid' would be like a secret plan to turn Trump into an asshole.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:38 AM on December 29, 2016 [44 favorites]
So they f'd up the election enough to warrant sanctions or possible military action and we'll just keep the guy they threw it to.
Seems fine.
posted by petebest at 7:46 AM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Seems fine.
posted by petebest at 7:46 AM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
LooseFilter, you don't have mefi mail turned on, but I'd like to know more about your podcast, if you could drop the name or link, pls.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:54 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:54 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
DC private schools giving Kellyanne Conway the brush-off: But after the concert, all the parents converged on Kellyanne, congratulating and sucking up to her,” said one source. “Kellyanne is asking everyone with connections to DC schools for help.”
While in DC on Wednesday with her kids looking at schools, Conway told me, “I would not characterize myself as ‘worried’ so much as amused by the silence and sighs on the other end of the phone when friends and allies have made preliminary inquiries on our behalf.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:12 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
While in DC on Wednesday with her kids looking at schools, Conway told me, “I would not characterize myself as ‘worried’ so much as amused by the silence and sighs on the other end of the phone when friends and allies have made preliminary inquiries on our behalf.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:12 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
SockPuppet, follow the "website" link at the top of his profile page.
posted by Coventry at 8:13 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 8:13 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
What’s really bugging Trump about Obama: Trump was also irritated by Obama’s comments at Pearl Harbor on Tuesday afternoon in which he said, “even when hatred burns hottest, even when the tug of tribalism is at its most primal, we must resist the urge to turn inward. We must resist the urge to demonize those who are different.” These felt to Trump like direct criticism of the president-elect, according to two people close to Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:21 AM on December 29, 2016 [39 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:21 AM on December 29, 2016 [39 favorites]
” These felt to Trump like direct criticism of the president-elect, according to two people close to Trump.
Any statement or sentiment that is sane and on the side of humanity is by its very nature a criticism against trump.
posted by ian1977 at 8:26 AM on December 29, 2016 [42 favorites]
Any statement or sentiment that is sane and on the side of humanity is by its very nature a criticism against trump.
posted by ian1977 at 8:26 AM on December 29, 2016 [42 favorites]
Trumpists think fucking Star Wars is an attack on Trump.
posted by Artw at 8:33 AM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:33 AM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Star Wars is an attack on normalized fascism, so...
posted by stolyarova at 8:38 AM on December 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by stolyarova at 8:38 AM on December 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
Don't know if it will do anything, but this seems like a good idea:
The Washington Post's Fix team has decided to help ensure that the public receives the most accurate possible information by adding more context or corrections.
posted by neroli at 8:39 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Washington Post's Fix team has decided to help ensure that the public receives the most accurate possible information by adding more context or corrections.
posted by neroli at 8:39 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
> Don't know if it will do anything, but this seems like a good idea:
I think the phrase you're looking for is "surely this."
posted by tonycpsu at 8:43 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think the phrase you're looking for is "surely this."
posted by tonycpsu at 8:43 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Threshold Editions, an imprint of Simon & Schuster, has signed a $250k book deal with Milo Yiannopoulos.
posted by bluecore at 8:51 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by bluecore at 8:51 AM on December 29, 2016
@realdonaldtrump: My Administration will follow two simple rules: BUY AMERICAN and HIRE AMERICAN! #USA
Stuff like this has me sputtering "B-but what the fuck?! He doesn't even hire—he's got contracts in—?!?!" Until I remember this:
@realdonaldtrump: My supporters follow two simple rules: DO read my tweets and DO NOT read what the lying media says about them. Or read much of anything, really. [fake]
posted by Rykey at 8:58 AM on December 29, 2016
Stuff like this has me sputtering "B-but what the fuck?! He doesn't even hire—he's got contracts in—?!?!" Until I remember this:
@realdonaldtrump: My supporters follow two simple rules: DO read my tweets and DO NOT read what the lying media says about them. Or read much of anything, really. [fake]
posted by Rykey at 8:58 AM on December 29, 2016
@realdonaldtrump: My Administration will follow two simple rules: BUY AMERICAN and HIRE AMERICAN! #USA
third rule: Borrow foreign
.
.
.
fourth rule (classified): Any attempt to arrest a senior Trump Organization employee results in shutdown
posted by FJT at 9:04 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
third rule: Borrow foreign
.
.
.
fourth rule (classified): Any attempt to arrest a senior Trump Organization employee results in shutdown
posted by FJT at 9:04 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Threshold Editions, an imprint of Simon & Schuster, has signed a $250k book deal with Milo Yiannopoulos.
Threshold declined to comment on whether the book would be titled "My Struggle." [fake]
But seriously, Milo, congrats on becoming the new Anne Coulter. May you become as discredited and pathetic as Roosh V.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:20 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Threshold declined to comment on whether the book would be titled "My Struggle." [fake]
But seriously, Milo, congrats on becoming the new Anne Coulter. May you become as discredited and pathetic as Roosh V.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:20 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
> Trump was also irritated by Obama’s comments at Pearl Harbor on Tuesday afternoon in which he said, “even when hatred burns hottest, even when the tug of tribalism is at its most primal, we must resist the urge to turn inward. We must resist the urge to demonize those who are different.” These felt to Trump like direct criticism of the president-elect, according to two people close to Trump.
That is saying something that a talk about "don't demonizing people and instead be a better person" is taken as a direct criticism. That you mean you identify with being a shitty person and demonizing people, and your brain goes "whoa there, can't have a moment of self reflection, yeah, fuck that asshole for attacking me in a speech about Pearl Harbor."
posted by mrzarquon at 9:21 AM on December 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
That is saying something that a talk about "don't demonizing people and instead be a better person" is taken as a direct criticism. That you mean you identify with being a shitty person and demonizing people, and your brain goes "whoa there, can't have a moment of self reflection, yeah, fuck that asshole for attacking me in a speech about Pearl Harbor."
posted by mrzarquon at 9:21 AM on December 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
It's not as if Trump was alone in that interpretation.
posted by Coventry at 10:04 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by Coventry at 10:04 AM on December 29, 2016
So, here is something: the Guardian article cited upthread about Julian Assange seems to have been highly misleading. Much as it kills me to say anything nice about him, the article seems to have been a very hostile interpretation of an interview in which he says a variety of things ranging from the perfectly-acceptable-but-probably-slightly-disingenuous to the actually-metafilter-would-probably-agree-with-him.
What's more, it seems pretty clear that he didn't say that the left media climate in Russia is full of competition/death/etc and therefore vibrant, but instead said that Wikileaks doesn't do as much work in Russia because there are a number of good dissident media outlets run by Russian-speakers.
The interview was conducted by an Italian journalist but is in English, and while parts of it are obviously an attempt to insulate Assange from people's anger over his work in electing Trump (the part with the kitten? I mean, come the fuck on) it is not at all as was reported. I still tend to think that the idea that if Assange is sent to face rape charges in Sweden he will then be whisked away to a gulag in the US is pretty much bullshit, but the point is, there's no sense in believing that the guy said things he didn't say.
It's in full here and I think many mefites will find a surprising number of his comments pretty mefi-compatible.
posted by Frowner at 10:07 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
What's more, it seems pretty clear that he didn't say that the left media climate in Russia is full of competition/death/etc and therefore vibrant, but instead said that Wikileaks doesn't do as much work in Russia because there are a number of good dissident media outlets run by Russian-speakers.
The interview was conducted by an Italian journalist but is in English, and while parts of it are obviously an attempt to insulate Assange from people's anger over his work in electing Trump (the part with the kitten? I mean, come the fuck on) it is not at all as was reported. I still tend to think that the idea that if Assange is sent to face rape charges in Sweden he will then be whisked away to a gulag in the US is pretty much bullshit, but the point is, there's no sense in believing that the guy said things he didn't say.
It's in full here and I think many mefites will find a surprising number of his comments pretty mefi-compatible.
posted by Frowner at 10:07 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
After a yr, FBI trolls @JasonLeopold in response to #FOIA rather than handing over 487 pgs of talking pts for James Comey
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:10 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:10 AM on December 29, 2016
Technological change has affected our economy more than liberalization of trade barriers. Ultimately, though, inequality is a distribution problem, meaning that it is a political choice. As long as a rich minority has the power to design laws in a way that benefits them rather than everyone, inequality will persist.
QFT.
posted by wildblueyonder at 10:14 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
QFT.
posted by wildblueyonder at 10:14 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I watched a populist leader rise in my country. That’s why I’m genuinely worried for America.
Populists govern by swapping issues, as opposed to resolving them. Purposeful randomness, constant ambush, relentless slaloming and red herrings dropped all around are the new normal. Their favorite means of communication is provoking conflict. They do not mind being hated. Their two basic postures of “defending” and “triumphing” are impossible to perform without picking enemies.posted by tonycpsu at 10:17 AM on December 29, 2016 [27 favorites]
I was terrified to learn that pundits in the United States have started to elaborate on possible benefits of Trump’s stances toward Russia and China. Few developments are more frightening than the populist edition of George Orwell’s dystopia. The world is now dominated by three gigantic powers, Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia, a.k.a. the United States, Russia and China, and all three are governed by promises of making their realms “great again.”
Please do not forget that populists can turn into peaceniks or imperialists at any moment, depending on what they think could yield good spin that boosts their support. Remember how Putin and Erdogan had switched, within months this year, from warring to fraternity. Or how Orban in opposition had blasted any compromises with Russia, only to become Putin’s best friend upon his election.
What's more, it seems pretty clear that he didn't say that the left media climate in Russia is full of competition/death/etc and therefore vibrant, but instead said that Wikileaks doesn't do as much work in Russia because there are a number of good dissident media outlets run by Russian-speakers.
That sounds not very much different and still laughably stupid, and he's still a Russian stooge.
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
That sounds not very much different and still laughably stupid, and he's still a Russian stooge.
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Asked if he thinks there should be any limit on Israeli settlement building, he responded by saying: "I'm very very strong on Israel. I think that Israel has been treated very very unfairly by a lot of different people. If you look at resolutions in the United Nation... they are up for 20 reprimands and other nations that are horrible places, horrible places that treat people horribly haven't even been reprimanded. So there is something going on and I think it is very unfair to Israel. Thank you very much. Thank you.
He then turned and went back inside and the pool left Mar-a-Lago.
I'm speechless. I just realized I was waving my hands around in the air while trying to find words.
posted by futz at 10:24 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
He then turned and went back inside and the pool left Mar-a-Lago.
I'm speechless. I just realized I was waving my hands around in the air while trying to find words.
posted by futz at 10:24 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I mean honestly, I think that amongst average mefites, how one feels about Assange is an important barometer. He's not an attractive personality, and I find the rape charges extremely plausible based on time spent around alternative media men. I think Wikileaks' approach to data release has been pretty dangerous and asshole-ish. But I feel like people of principle try to find out the facts, even when a narrative is very emotionally attractive.
It's attractive to believe that someone like Assange, who seems like a dick, is an ideological enemy who really can say something politburo-ish about how Russian dissident media culture is freer than the in the West. I mean, I found myself ready to believe it, because that's just the kind of dude-bro contrarian garbage that many years of being around radical bros has taught me to expect.
But I think we ought to box a bit clever - Assange isn't just a dickish rad-bro, he's also the enemy of people we'd do well to treat with a lot of skepticism, and those people clearly have it in for him. The two kinds of critique - a critique from the left and a disingenuous critique from government power - need not to get packaged up together.
For once, this isn't a new problem - it's a pretty standard left problem of being clear about why we critique someone and what their relationship to power actually is.
Wouldn't we feel pretty bad if - should we all survive to 2040 or so - we looked back and the real truth was basically "Assange was kind of a dick whose organization was left in its orientation even though its actions had equivocal results; the government was able to mobilize the center-left against him by appealing to nationalism and anti-Russia sentiment just as it had been able to mobilize liberals and social democrats against socialists and communists during the red scare"?
posted by Frowner at 10:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's attractive to believe that someone like Assange, who seems like a dick, is an ideological enemy who really can say something politburo-ish about how Russian dissident media culture is freer than the in the West. I mean, I found myself ready to believe it, because that's just the kind of dude-bro contrarian garbage that many years of being around radical bros has taught me to expect.
But I think we ought to box a bit clever - Assange isn't just a dickish rad-bro, he's also the enemy of people we'd do well to treat with a lot of skepticism, and those people clearly have it in for him. The two kinds of critique - a critique from the left and a disingenuous critique from government power - need not to get packaged up together.
For once, this isn't a new problem - it's a pretty standard left problem of being clear about why we critique someone and what their relationship to power actually is.
Wouldn't we feel pretty bad if - should we all survive to 2040 or so - we looked back and the real truth was basically "Assange was kind of a dick whose organization was left in its orientation even though its actions had equivocal results; the government was able to mobilize the center-left against him by appealing to nationalism and anti-Russia sentiment just as it had been able to mobilize liberals and social democrats against socialists and communists during the red scare"?
posted by Frowner at 10:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
As noted by several observers on Twitter, including Daniel Dale, "there is something going on" is DJT's usual shorthand for "Obama is a Muslim."
posted by Superplin at 10:26 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Superplin at 10:26 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
That sounds not very much different and still laughably stupid, and he's still a Russian stooge.
I completely disagree. I was around some independent media in the pre-Occupy/Occupy era (in particular, I did some reporting on indigenous and labor struggles in Oaxaca in which I was working with Spanish language materials and having some access to bilingual people but not myself speaking Spanish) and one thing I absolutely saw was that there's always serious slippage when you're not working in a language that you're fluent in, and there's always serious slippage when you're trying to tell someone else's story. Russian dissident media working in Russian with Russian-speakers seems not only entirely appropriate but, based on actual working experience I've had with cross-language stuff, likely to produce much, much better and more effective journalism.
Do I think he's 100% sincere? Not really, but I don't think it's mere lies and stoogery.
posted by Frowner at 10:30 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I completely disagree. I was around some independent media in the pre-Occupy/Occupy era (in particular, I did some reporting on indigenous and labor struggles in Oaxaca in which I was working with Spanish language materials and having some access to bilingual people but not myself speaking Spanish) and one thing I absolutely saw was that there's always serious slippage when you're not working in a language that you're fluent in, and there's always serious slippage when you're trying to tell someone else's story. Russian dissident media working in Russian with Russian-speakers seems not only entirely appropriate but, based on actual working experience I've had with cross-language stuff, likely to produce much, much better and more effective journalism.
Do I think he's 100% sincere? Not really, but I don't think it's mere lies and stoogery.
posted by Frowner at 10:30 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The big leak that put Wikileaks and Assange on the map, the Collateral Murder video, was falsified. It was intentionally edited to create a specific narrative. And we know this because he has openly acknowledged that he did this. He also had for a long time a regular show on Russia Today.
Assange is not the ally of the left, and it only takes looking at his conduct to see this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:33 AM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Assange is not the ally of the left, and it only takes looking at his conduct to see this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:33 AM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Wait a second. Did Kellyanne Conway just use Page Six as part of a PR campaign to try to get her kids into some school?
posted by zachlipton at 10:34 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:34 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Assange and Wikileaks go completely against thr group's stated purposes of radical transparency. There is nothing transparent about how they operate or how they filter what information gets released at what time. Wikileaks is as much political actor with its own agenda as anyone else and and it is foolhardy to treat them as anything other than that just because they may occasionally score points for your side.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:36 AM on December 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:36 AM on December 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
He then turned and went back inside and the pool left Mar-a-Lago.
I'm speechless. I just realized I was waving my hands around in the air while trying to find words.
Whenever I read verbatim transcripts of things he says, it increases my conviction that he's suffering from early stage dementia. He simply does not make any coherent sense.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:37 AM on December 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
I'm speechless. I just realized I was waving my hands around in the air while trying to find words.
Whenever I read verbatim transcripts of things he says, it increases my conviction that he's suffering from early stage dementia. He simply does not make any coherent sense.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:37 AM on December 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
You know, I can't think of any way this goes well, this meaning this ship of state for the next four years. My latest attempt to console myself was to imagine a plague that inflicts a universal suffering that wakes people the fuck up about basic things like morals and the second book of the Bible. Plus the benefit of reduced carbon output!
But then you'd have Trump trying to benefit from such a horrible event in some way. Even if he were the most hated person on earth and had to live in a bunker, he'd still be our president and he'd do something fucked up like order all the infected into camps.
I sort of wonder if the Obamas are rethinking their decision to stay in D.C. God, I want to be on Mars, can't imagine how BHO feels.
posted by angrycat at 10:39 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
But then you'd have Trump trying to benefit from such a horrible event in some way. Even if he were the most hated person on earth and had to live in a bunker, he'd still be our president and he'd do something fucked up like order all the infected into camps.
I sort of wonder if the Obamas are rethinking their decision to stay in D.C. God, I want to be on Mars, can't imagine how BHO feels.
posted by angrycat at 10:39 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
In context, Assange's statement is less a baldfaced lie and more a mendacious excuse. The stuff about Russian opposition media is still laughable, and the idea that Wikileaks lacks native Russian speakers is an immutable, unchangeable fact doesn't hold water. If he actually cared, he could hire some.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:43 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:43 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm still really disappointed no one in power had the spine to demand full investigations and closer scrutiny of polling irregularities like differences between exit polling and outcomes. We very rarely used to see such discrepancies before fully electronic voting machines came on the scene, and there's so little uniformity across polling places, it's a system rife for abuses, whether that happened or made the difference in this case or not.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:45 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 10:45 AM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Wouldn't we feel pretty bad if - should we all survive to 2040 or so
I do know right now we have an outgoing Democratic president with limited time, and if it took zero time to pardon Assange, I wouldn't mind it. But, I think with the way the government and bureaucracy works, it probably wouldn't be easy or instantaneous. I think in 2040 I will look back and be glad that the Obama administration spent time and resources halting Standing Rock, making new national monuments, investigating Russian involvement in our election, and basically doing everything he can to babyproof the Executive.
Let the next president pardon Assange.
posted by FJT at 10:48 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I do know right now we have an outgoing Democratic president with limited time, and if it took zero time to pardon Assange, I wouldn't mind it. But, I think with the way the government and bureaucracy works, it probably wouldn't be easy or instantaneous. I think in 2040 I will look back and be glad that the Obama administration spent time and resources halting Standing Rock, making new national monuments, investigating Russian involvement in our election, and basically doing everything he can to babyproof the Executive.
Let the next president pardon Assange.
posted by FJT at 10:48 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
While the posh private schools’ handbooks and websites all preach “diversity” and “open-mindedness,” Conway said, “For some, there is a comfort in sameness.”
Fucking elitists wanting people aren't in the tank for bigots and who respect things like common decency.
posted by Talez at 10:51 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Fucking elitists wanting people aren't in the tank for bigots and who respect things like common decency.
posted by Talez at 10:51 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Martion O'Malley is out doing useful things.
posted by Coventry at 10:52 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
DAVENPORT — Former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley told Democrats in Davenport on Sunday that “all things in politics are temporary,” and he urged them to turn their grief over the Nov. 8 election into positive action, beginning with this month’s special election for the state Senate.According to an email from the former O'Malley campaign, Lykam won on Tuesday.
O’Malley was in Davenport to campaign for state Rep. Jim Lykam, D-Davenport, who is seeking to win the District 45 seat in the Dec. 27 special election.
posted by Coventry at 10:52 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Whenever I read verbatim transcripts of things he says, it increases my conviction that he's suffering from early stage dementia. He simply does not make any coherent sense.
Look, I am strongly on record as being pretty "fuck Trump." But I think it's important to note now that he's going to say things that are within the borders of rational discourse - maybe stuff some members of the anti-Trump coalition might strongly and passionately disagree with, but stuff reasonable people can disagree on.
Reasonable people can feel that Israel is unfairly treated by the UN. The existence of a moratorium on I/P here on Metafilter suggests reasonable people do disagree. Suggesting he's demented for believing that is suggesting those reasonable people may also be demented. And he's going to say a lot of shit that is both good and bad over the next year, that reasonable people are going to agree and disagree with.
The problem with Trump isn't that he's crazy. The problem is he's a fascist in bed with white supremacy. The fascism and the Naziism is what we have to oppose, not make out that everything he does is crazy. Otherwise we have the Berlusconi effect, where people get defensive and start identifying with him.
posted by corb at 11:01 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Look, I am strongly on record as being pretty "fuck Trump." But I think it's important to note now that he's going to say things that are within the borders of rational discourse - maybe stuff some members of the anti-Trump coalition might strongly and passionately disagree with, but stuff reasonable people can disagree on.
Reasonable people can feel that Israel is unfairly treated by the UN. The existence of a moratorium on I/P here on Metafilter suggests reasonable people do disagree. Suggesting he's demented for believing that is suggesting those reasonable people may also be demented. And he's going to say a lot of shit that is both good and bad over the next year, that reasonable people are going to agree and disagree with.
The problem with Trump isn't that he's crazy. The problem is he's a fascist in bed with white supremacy. The fascism and the Naziism is what we have to oppose, not make out that everything he does is crazy. Otherwise we have the Berlusconi effect, where people get defensive and start identifying with him.
posted by corb at 11:01 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Israel/Palestine.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:05 AM on December 29, 2016
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:05 AM on December 29, 2016
U.S. Punishes Russia for Election Hacking, Ejecting Operatives: The Obama administration struck back at Russia on Thursday for its efforts to influence the 2016 election, ejecting 35 Russian intelligence operatives from the United States and imposing sanctions on Russia’s two leading intelligence services, including four top officers of the military intelligence unit the White House believes ordered the attacks on the Democratic National Committee and other political organizations.
In a sweeping set of announcements, the United States was also expected to release evidence linking the cyberattacks to computer systems used by Russian intelligence. Taken together, the actions would amount to the strongest American response ever taken to a state-sponsored cyberattack aimed at the United States.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:06 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
In a sweeping set of announcements, the United States was also expected to release evidence linking the cyberattacks to computer systems used by Russian intelligence. Taken together, the actions would amount to the strongest American response ever taken to a state-sponsored cyberattack aimed at the United States.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:06 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Issuance of Amended Executive Order 13694; Cyber-Related Sanctions Designations: Today, the President issued an Executive Order Taking Additional Steps To Address The National Emergency With Respect To Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities. This amends Executive Order 13694, “Blocking the Property of Certain Persons Engaging in Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities.” E.O. 13694 authorized the imposition of sanctions on individuals and entities determined to be responsible for or complicit in malicious cyber-enabled activities that result in enumerated harms that are reasonably likely to result in, or have materially contributed to, a significant threat to the national security, foreign policy, or economic health or financial stability of the United States. The authority has been amended to also allow for the imposition of sanctions on individuals and entities determined to be responsible for tampering, altering, or causing the misappropriation of information with the purpose or effect of interfering with or undermining election processes or institutions. Five entities and four individuals are identified in the Annex of the amended Executive Order and will be added to OFAC’s list of Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons (SDN List). OFAC today is designating an additional two individuals who also will be added to the SDN List.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:08 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:08 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The problem with Trump isn't that he's crazy. The problem is he's a fascist in bed with white supremacy.
Why not both?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:10 AM on December 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
Why not both?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:10 AM on December 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
Reasonable people can have all sorts of positions about Israel and the UN. However, reasonable people who are about to run the country and claim that they will soon achieve peace ought to be capable of producing a coherent sentence about Israeli settlements that demonstrates some basic awareness of the issue instead of trotting out a former boxing promoter with an, er, colorful history and then emitting some word salad.
posted by zachlipton at 11:12 AM on December 29, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 11:12 AM on December 29, 2016 [40 favorites]
The EO13694-sanctioned Russians must be laughing now. "Oh dear... better take a vacation for three weeks until Trump can reverse it."
posted by Coventry at 11:14 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 11:14 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
... how one feels about Assange is an important barometer. But I feel like people of principle try to find out the facts, even when a narrative is very emotionally attractive.
The facts are that Assange actively worked to put Trump in the White House. The world is now in a much worse place as a result of Assange's actions. That's all I need to know. End of story.
As long as Assange maintains his paranoia about being sent to the U.S. if he goes to Sweden, he is not a neutral party. He wants to hurt the U.S. in retaliation regardless of harm to innocent bystanders. He is working to advance his own personal interests, not the better interests of the world.
posted by JackFlash at 11:15 AM on December 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
The facts are that Assange actively worked to put Trump in the White House. The world is now in a much worse place as a result of Assange's actions. That's all I need to know. End of story.
As long as Assange maintains his paranoia about being sent to the U.S. if he goes to Sweden, he is not a neutral party. He wants to hurt the U.S. in retaliation regardless of harm to innocent bystanders. He is working to advance his own personal interests, not the better interests of the world.
posted by JackFlash at 11:15 AM on December 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
any workable replacement that doesn't leave the poor, sick, and mentally ill out in the cold to fend for themselves.
Uh, hello, private prisons? I mean, they can't just leave them out in the street unmonetized.
But prisons have healthcare, right?
posted by emjaybee at 11:16 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Uh, hello, private prisons? I mean, they can't just leave them out in the street unmonetized.
But prisons have healthcare, right?
posted by emjaybee at 11:16 AM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
until Trump can reverse it
That's the point, Coventry. Make him reverse it publicly.
posted by stolyarova at 11:16 AM on December 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
That's the point, Coventry. Make him reverse it publicly.
posted by stolyarova at 11:16 AM on December 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
But prisons have healthcare, right?
Only if you can afford the co-pay.
posted by Talez at 11:20 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Only if you can afford the co-pay.
posted by Talez at 11:20 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
That's the point, Coventry. Make him reverse it publicly.
I'm not sure doing so would phase his followers and I'm not sure they'd even bother in the short to medium term. The front groups and ejected operatives are permanently burned, which is an annoyance to Russia to the tune of to tens of million dollars, but it's not like known spook bosses were ever going to come to the United States anyway, and they're going to burn some of our operatives too.
posted by Candleman at 11:23 AM on December 29, 2016
I'm not sure doing so would phase his followers and I'm not sure they'd even bother in the short to medium term. The front groups and ejected operatives are permanently burned, which is an annoyance to Russia to the tune of to tens of million dollars, but it's not like known spook bosses were ever going to come to the United States anyway, and they're going to burn some of our operatives too.
posted by Candleman at 11:23 AM on December 29, 2016
The problem with Trump isn't that he's crazy. The problem is he's a fascist in bed with white supremacy.
I understand where you're coming from, and I didn't mean to imply that his position on Israel is the issue; I was referring more to his habit of putting together incoherent word salad, which combined with this short temper, well-documented insomnia, and general wtf-ness suggests to me that he may be suffering from age-related cognitive decline. Or he may just be scrambling to dodge the question. I also want to be clear that I don't intend to stigmatize mental illness or mock dementia sufferers! It's a terrible condition with limited treatment options. But it's deeply troubling to consider that the most powerful man in the world might have dementia, considering that we had some serious issues with this in a previous executive, Reagan.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
I understand where you're coming from, and I didn't mean to imply that his position on Israel is the issue; I was referring more to his habit of putting together incoherent word salad, which combined with this short temper, well-documented insomnia, and general wtf-ness suggests to me that he may be suffering from age-related cognitive decline. Or he may just be scrambling to dodge the question. I also want to be clear that I don't intend to stigmatize mental illness or mock dementia sufferers! It's a terrible condition with limited treatment options. But it's deeply troubling to consider that the most powerful man in the world might have dementia, considering that we had some serious issues with this in a previous executive, Reagan.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
> Reasonable people can feel that Israel is unfairly treated by the UN.
They can, and some of them have expressed that precise viewpoint in this very thread.
> The existence of a moratorium on I/P here on Metafilter suggests reasonable people do disagree.
There is no moratorium on the topic. If there were, the comments I just linked to would have been deleted. What there is on the I/P issue (and some other contentious issues) is a heightened level of scrutiny. Posts and comments have to clear a higher bar, and derails that look like they'll become fighty will tend to get nixed earlier. Your contention about that the special treatment of I/P exists is also false. It doesn't exist because of the topic, or the viewpoints themselves, but because of the acrimony that the topic tends to create. There are plenty of issues on which MeFi-ites disagree that don't get the same "topics MetaFilter doesn't do well" treatment, because the disagreement doesn't tend to become as fighty.
> The fascism and the Naziism is what we have to oppose, not make out that everything he does is crazy.
If other people believe that something he's saying/doing is crazy, they have the right to make that case. Hectoring people about not adhering to your particular set of complaints about Trump is not going to lead to a productive conversation. Cases have been made for and against the US abstention from the UN resolution. I think it's been a good conversation, and don't appreciate this attempt to shut it down because you don't agree with one side of the argument.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
They can, and some of them have expressed that precise viewpoint in this very thread.
> The existence of a moratorium on I/P here on Metafilter suggests reasonable people do disagree.
There is no moratorium on the topic. If there were, the comments I just linked to would have been deleted. What there is on the I/P issue (and some other contentious issues) is a heightened level of scrutiny. Posts and comments have to clear a higher bar, and derails that look like they'll become fighty will tend to get nixed earlier. Your contention about that the special treatment of I/P exists is also false. It doesn't exist because of the topic, or the viewpoints themselves, but because of the acrimony that the topic tends to create. There are plenty of issues on which MeFi-ites disagree that don't get the same "topics MetaFilter doesn't do well" treatment, because the disagreement doesn't tend to become as fighty.
> The fascism and the Naziism is what we have to oppose, not make out that everything he does is crazy.
If other people believe that something he's saying/doing is crazy, they have the right to make that case. Hectoring people about not adhering to your particular set of complaints about Trump is not going to lead to a productive conversation. Cases have been made for and against the US abstention from the UN resolution. I think it's been a good conversation, and don't appreciate this attempt to shut it down because you don't agree with one side of the argument.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:25 AM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
The problem with Trump isn't that he's crazy.
That really is debatable, unfortunately. I've got a close friend who's a clinical psychologist and he believes in no uncertain terms that Trump is clearly diagnosable as having full blown narcissistic personality disorder and shows worrying signs of possible psychopathy, and while my friend is on the liberalish side, he tends to be scrupulously intellectually honest and is more of a political independent than a partisan.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:26 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
That really is debatable, unfortunately. I've got a close friend who's a clinical psychologist and he believes in no uncertain terms that Trump is clearly diagnosable as having full blown narcissistic personality disorder and shows worrying signs of possible psychopathy, and while my friend is on the liberalish side, he tends to be scrupulously intellectually honest and is more of a political independent than a partisan.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:26 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
That executive order is something else. Some of this stuff is like a Shadowrun module.
BELAN, Aleksey Alekseyevich (a.k.a. Abyr Valgov; a.k.a. BELAN, Aleksei; a.k.a. BELAN, Aleksey Alexseyevich; a.k.a. BELAN, Alexsei; a.k.a. BELAN, Alexsey; a.k.a. "Abyrvaig"; a.k.a. "Abyrvalg"; a.k.a. "Anthony Anthony"; a.k.a. "Fedyunya"; a.k.a. "M4G"; a.k.a. "Mag"; a.k.a. "Mage"; a.k.a. "Magg"; a.k.a. "Moy.Yawik"; a.k.a. "Mrmagister")...(individual) [CYBER2].
BOGACHEV, Evgeniy Mikhaylovich (a.k.a. BOGACHEV, Evgeniy Mikhailovich; a.k.a. "Lastik"; a.k.a. "lucky12345"; a.k.a. "Monstr"; a.k.a. "Pollingsoon"; a.k.a. "Slavik")...(individual) [CYBER2].
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:28 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
BELAN, Aleksey Alekseyevich (a.k.a. Abyr Valgov; a.k.a. BELAN, Aleksei; a.k.a. BELAN, Aleksey Alexseyevich; a.k.a. BELAN, Alexsei; a.k.a. BELAN, Alexsey; a.k.a. "Abyrvaig"; a.k.a. "Abyrvalg"; a.k.a. "Anthony Anthony"; a.k.a. "Fedyunya"; a.k.a. "M4G"; a.k.a. "Mag"; a.k.a. "Mage"; a.k.a. "Magg"; a.k.a. "Moy.Yawik"; a.k.a. "Mrmagister")...(individual) [CYBER2].
BOGACHEV, Evgeniy Mikhaylovich (a.k.a. BOGACHEV, Evgeniy Mikhailovich; a.k.a. "Lastik"; a.k.a. "lucky12345"; a.k.a. "Monstr"; a.k.a. "Pollingsoon"; a.k.a. "Slavik")...(individual) [CYBER2].
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:28 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe he's following the Cerebus strategy: its hard to negotiate with somebody whose humping your leg and howling at the moon.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:29 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:29 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: a.k.a. "lucky12345"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:30 AM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:30 AM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Why not both?
Normally, I'd say this line of conjecture was gross. However, Trump:
a) Sounds literally like he has brain damage. It's not like, say, Dubya or Bob Dole, who were just colorful characters, but you could imagine holding a conversation with them about a topic. Trump can't hold a thought for the duration of a compound sentence. We know, we've watched him try for what feels like a thousand years.
b) Refused to release a physical, thus offering us no factual basis for giving him the benefit of the doubt.
We have no basis to assume he's well, but we have plenty of circumstantial evidence to assume he's not. Under these circumstances, it's not just fair to speculate, he invites it every time he attempts human communication and only sorta sticks the landing.
(And I don't mean to stigmatize mental illness or age either, it's more a case of 'if you can't see, you shouldn't drive. If you can't hold it together, you shouldn't have nuclear codes, you should have a real doctor and treatment.')
posted by mordax at 11:32 AM on December 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
Normally, I'd say this line of conjecture was gross. However, Trump:
a) Sounds literally like he has brain damage. It's not like, say, Dubya or Bob Dole, who were just colorful characters, but you could imagine holding a conversation with them about a topic. Trump can't hold a thought for the duration of a compound sentence. We know, we've watched him try for what feels like a thousand years.
b) Refused to release a physical, thus offering us no factual basis for giving him the benefit of the doubt.
We have no basis to assume he's well, but we have plenty of circumstantial evidence to assume he's not. Under these circumstances, it's not just fair to speculate, he invites it every time he attempts human communication and only sorta sticks the landing.
(And I don't mean to stigmatize mental illness or age either, it's more a case of 'if you can't see, you shouldn't drive. If you can't hold it together, you shouldn't have nuclear codes, you should have a real doctor and treatment.')
posted by mordax at 11:32 AM on December 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
There is no moratorium on the topic. If there were, the comments I just linked to would have been deleted. What there is on the I/P issue (and some other contentious issues) is a heightened level of scrutiny.
In all fairness to corb, I thought I remembered an I/P moratorium too, from like a year ago.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:34 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
In all fairness to corb, I thought I remembered an I/P moratorium too, from like a year ago.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:34 AM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe he's following the Cerebus strategy: its hard to negotiate with somebody whose humping your leg and howling at the moon.
Since we seem to have evidence that Trump probably started off by accidentally screwing business endeavors up through incompetence and not caring, but then realized he could take advantage of the aftermath of doing so while everyone was scrambling to compensate for whatever he screwed up, that's the line I was thinking along: I wonder if he's always had the rambling, vague mannerisms, just as a habit or as a result of genuine attention problems or something else, and everything started with him realizing that he could take advantage of being rambling and vague, especially when other slimeballs were trying to get something out of him because he's a rich slimeball.
posted by XMLicious at 11:34 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was struck by the difference in Trump's speech patterns when I saw an old video clip of him on a talk show. He spoke in complete sentences and sounded lucid. Obnoxious, of course, but lucid...
posted by Surely This at 11:35 AM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Surely This at 11:35 AM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Assange and Wikileaks go completely against thr group's stated purposes of radical transparency. There is nothing transparent about how they operate or how they filter what information gets released at what time.
Yep. And look, Assange has turned against (and lashed out against, and sent his flying monkeys after) every (non-Kremlin-run) media organisation that has attempted to work with Wikileaks, even when editors and executives invested their own credibility and faced legal jeopardy to pursue transparency in responsible ways, i.e. checking provenance, not exposing innocent or powerless people to collateral damage because they're mentioned in leaked documents. Fuck him and his minions too.
posted by holgate at 11:35 AM on December 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Yep. And look, Assange has turned against (and lashed out against, and sent his flying monkeys after) every (non-Kremlin-run) media organisation that has attempted to work with Wikileaks, even when editors and executives invested their own credibility and faced legal jeopardy to pursue transparency in responsible ways, i.e. checking provenance, not exposing innocent or powerless people to collateral damage because they're mentioned in leaked documents. Fuck him and his minions too.
posted by holgate at 11:35 AM on December 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Paul Ryan's statement on Russia sanctions. "Russia does not share America's interests." Says new sanctions are "overdue."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:37 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:37 AM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
In all fairness to corb, I thought I remembered an I/P moratorium too, from like a year ago.
There's a full moratorium on I/P FPPs. You'd need a damn good reason for the post not to be insta-nuked. Slight derails into current politics seem to be on the borderline of acceptable until it gets even slightly nasty.
posted by Talez at 11:40 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's a full moratorium on I/P FPPs. You'd need a damn good reason for the post not to be insta-nuked. Slight derails into current politics seem to be on the borderline of acceptable until it gets even slightly nasty.
posted by Talez at 11:40 AM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mod note: There is no moratorium on Israel/Palestine discussions; there never was an official one as far as I can recall; there is a higher bar for that and several other perennially difficult-to-manage discussion topics; hashing all of this out back and forth here further seems like a distraction and would better fit a MetaTalk if there really needs to be one, otherwise please let it be now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:44 AM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:44 AM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Officials Warn Obamacare Repeal Could Spell Disaster for Their States
Red states across the country may face the harshest outcome if Obamacare is repealed early next year. The Los Angeles Times noted earlier this month that four of the five states whose residents receive the most in subsidies to help them buy insurance have Republican-controlled congressional delegations: Florida, Texas, North Carolina and Georgia. The 2015 Congressional repeal bill, however, would scrap the very same subsidies that help low-income people afford insurance.posted by kirkaracha at 11:48 AM on December 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Maybe not technically crazy, but definitely unclearable -- too bad it doesn't matter now. And that's just personality traits, not even considering the debt issues.
I don't usually put myself in the shoes of his voters, I put myself in the shoes of foreign leaders that have to parse his rambling statements and tell their military commanders what posture to take towards us. Living under Berlusconi was probably depressing, like a corrupt state governor, but he could only do so much damage kicking that Italian boot. I'm not sure we'll have time to wait for his supporters to come around, especially since many of them literally want the end times.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:53 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't usually put myself in the shoes of his voters, I put myself in the shoes of foreign leaders that have to parse his rambling statements and tell their military commanders what posture to take towards us. Living under Berlusconi was probably depressing, like a corrupt state governor, but he could only do so much damage kicking that Italian boot. I'm not sure we'll have time to wait for his supporters to come around, especially since many of them literally want the end times.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:53 AM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
the actions would amount to the strongest American response ever taken to a state-sponsored cyberattack aimed at the United States.
Ever in the history of cyber? Wow.
Good thing these attacks and their affect on the election aren't well understood!
And when we come back - a dog that likes ice cream . . . In the winter?! Stay with us.
*ice cream commercial*
posted by petebest at 11:56 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Ever in the history of cyber? Wow.
Good thing these attacks and their affect on the election aren't well understood!
And when we come back - a dog that likes ice cream . . . In the winter?! Stay with us.
*ice cream commercial*
posted by petebest at 11:56 AM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
DHS/US-CERT has released a report which details GRIZZLY STEPPE – Russian Malicious Cyber Activity, validating a lot of the activity described by 3rd party security companies.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:07 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:07 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
"OFAC today is designating an additional two individuals who also will be added to the SDN List."
Please be Manafort and Carter Page. Please?
posted by klarck at 12:15 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Please be Manafort and Carter Page. Please?
posted by klarck at 12:15 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
DHS/US-CERT has released a report which details GRIZZLY STEPPE
There doesn't seem to be much new information there. A bunch of IP addresses, file hashes to look for, and general network security advice, in addition to a history of the attacks which was already public, and an explicit attribution to the Russians.
They mention a phishing attack which took place after the election, but don't give any further details.
posted by Coventry at 12:20 PM on December 29, 2016
There doesn't seem to be much new information there. A bunch of IP addresses, file hashes to look for, and general network security advice, in addition to a history of the attacks which was already public, and an explicit attribution to the Russians.
They mention a phishing attack which took place after the election, but don't give any further details.
posted by Coventry at 12:20 PM on December 29, 2016
There doesn't seem to be much new information there.
Well, you didn't trust this information when it came from elsewhere. Maybe this time?
posted by diogenes at 12:25 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Well, you didn't trust this information when it came from elsewhere. Maybe this time?
posted by diogenes at 12:25 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
And do we really need to play another round of "Coventry is skeptical"?
posted by diogenes at 12:28 PM on December 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 12:28 PM on December 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
The US-CERT report contains a lot of new and important information. Declassifying these network indicators will help net defense analysts worldwide block these specific threats, and releasing a detailed breakdown of the attack that goes into greater detail than the Crowdstrike report did will help incident responders recognize similar attacks in the future that don't rely on those specific malware families / vulnerabilities.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 12:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
diogenes: No, I came around after I read about the analysis of the bit.ly urls.
posted by Coventry at 12:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 12:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Huzzah!
posted by diogenes at 12:33 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 12:33 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Declassifying these network indicators will help net defense analysts worldwide block these specific threats
Yes, it's useful for that, but there is no new information here about attribution.
posted by Coventry at 12:45 PM on December 29, 2016
Yes, it's useful for that, but there is no new information here about attribution.
posted by Coventry at 12:45 PM on December 29, 2016
Rep Trent Franks (R-AZ) is now spinning this as "If the Russians hacked the Democrats it was a good thing! The media should have been getting that info!"
So that's going to be their narrative. Pretty smart; the whole "OH NOES DEMOCRATS HAS SEKRITS WHAT ARE THEY HIDING, HMMM?" has been effective for them in the past.
So: what's a good response to that? Besides screaming I mean.
posted by emjaybee at 12:46 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
So that's going to be their narrative. Pretty smart; the whole "OH NOES DEMOCRATS HAS SEKRITS WHAT ARE THEY HIDING, HMMM?" has been effective for them in the past.
So: what's a good response to that? Besides screaming I mean.
posted by emjaybee at 12:46 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Booting the creep out of office.
posted by petebest at 12:53 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by petebest at 12:53 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
emjaybee: It sounds like an invitation for the media to hire hackers to investigate future Republican candidates...
posted by Coventry at 12:54 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 12:54 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
I thought the RNC had also been hacked, but no specifics were leaked? That is something that should, in a rational world, give pause to those supporting this partisan approach.
Of course, rationality abandoned the world we actually live in a while back, so I'm not sure this is an effective point.
I would suggest emphasizing that the mere fact of the hacking--the process--is what's important, and what places our entire institutional system at risk, vs the specific outcome in this case (the DNC leaks). This isn't about delegitimizing the election, as such, but about defending our country from covert interference of any kind.
posted by Superplin at 12:56 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Of course, rationality abandoned the world we actually live in a while back, so I'm not sure this is an effective point.
I would suggest emphasizing that the mere fact of the hacking--the process--is what's important, and what places our entire institutional system at risk, vs the specific outcome in this case (the DNC leaks). This isn't about delegitimizing the election, as such, but about defending our country from covert interference of any kind.
posted by Superplin at 12:56 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
what's a good response to that?
Wrapping yourself up in the flag. "I see that the Honorable Representative from Arizona is inviting our enemies to work with Republicans to harm American people and American institutions."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:56 PM on December 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
Wrapping yourself up in the flag. "I see that the Honorable Representative from Arizona is inviting our enemies to work with Republicans to harm American people and American institutions."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:56 PM on December 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
More seriously, "Mr Franks sounds naive, and ignorant of the history of Russian information warfare practices. Do Arizonans really want this kind of useful idiot representing them in Congress?"
posted by Coventry at 1:01 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 1:01 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Vox Donald Trump confirmed yesterday that his veterans’ health “plan” is a joke
He did not actually have a specific criticism of the veterans’ health care status quo or a specific plan to improve it, and I think Americans in the relevant parts of the country will soon find that he doesn’t have a plan to bring back coal mining or labor-intensive forms of domestic steel production either. In many cases, that reality probably won’t cost Trump votes. Voting for the guy who praises steel and coal and cops and veterans rather than the woman talking about reducing student debt is at least as much a matter of identity politics as it is a matter of policy. After all, anyone interested enough in the details of veterans’ health policy or energy policy could have figured out pretty quickly that there was no substance to Trump’s plans.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:01 PM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm not the only person to wonder if many Republicans aren't afraid to call out Russia precisely because they know, or suspect, that it has dirt on them.
posted by emjaybee at 1:02 PM on December 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 1:02 PM on December 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
> Yes, it's useful for that, but there is no new information here about attribution.
Did you just read the PDF, or did you take a look at the CSV and STIX XML files that contain the indicators? If you don't think that releasing specific indicators known to be used by the Russian-affiliated actors that was used in determining attribution counts as "new information", then you have no idea what you're talking about.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on December 29, 2016
Did you just read the PDF, or did you take a look at the CSV and STIX XML files that contain the indicators? If you don't think that releasing specific indicators known to be used by the Russian-affiliated actors that was used in determining attribution counts as "new information", then you have no idea what you're talking about.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on December 29, 2016
Any indication that the same group was behind the biggest DDoS attack yet? 665Gb/s is a pretty big cyber.
Declassifying these network indicators will help net defense analysts worldwide block these specific threats
Mmmm that's not going to get us in living rooms though, much less evict the Turdfungus. Got anything sexier? Can ya make it POP more?
posted by petebest at 1:05 PM on December 29, 2016
Declassifying these network indicators will help net defense analysts worldwide block these specific threats
Mmmm that's not going to get us in living rooms though, much less evict the Turdfungus. Got anything sexier? Can ya make it POP more?
posted by petebest at 1:05 PM on December 29, 2016
tonycpsu: Yes, I looked at the CSV file. I meant no new information about attribution or methods.
posted by Coventry at 1:06 PM on December 29, 2016
posted by Coventry at 1:06 PM on December 29, 2016
I'm not the only person to wonder if many Republicans aren't afraid to call out Russia precisely because they know, or suspect, that it has dirt on them.
Except the leaked stuff from the DNC hack was pretty weak tea, managing to create a pervasive miasma of scandal but not stick anything really ruinous to anyone. Unless the RNC discusses tricks a lot dirtier than that over their e-mail, Russia has nothing really damaging on any Republicans (out of that particular hack; they might have other, better, dirt).
posted by jackbishop at 1:09 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Except the leaked stuff from the DNC hack was pretty weak tea, managing to create a pervasive miasma of scandal but not stick anything really ruinous to anyone. Unless the RNC discusses tricks a lot dirtier than that over their e-mail, Russia has nothing really damaging on any Republicans (out of that particular hack; they might have other, better, dirt).
posted by jackbishop at 1:09 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Hill Trump looking to add Hispanic to Cabinet: report
Casting call. Let's see...we have a Black person at HUD and a Jew at Treasury and a lady at Education. We need a Latino. Get me a Latino person for...?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:11 PM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Casting call. Let's see...we have a Black person at HUD and a Jew at Treasury and a lady at Education. We need a Latino. Get me a Latino person for...?
Trump's team is primarily looking at Agriculture secretary to add a Latino, but also could do so with Veterans Affairs secretary and the U.S. trade representative, the report said.Agriculture. Perfect. Short of making them Secretary for Taco Bowls, I can't think of anything better. Also I like how he is filling up his quota card. Gotta have a Latino for sure. What about a Muslim? You think he will get one of those? Asian? Oh, never mind he already checked that box.
“I can tell you now I have spoken to numerous folks on the transition, and they say that he’s absolutely looking for qualified Latinos for a Cabinet post,” said Mario Rodriguez, who sits on Trump’s Hispanic advisory committee.
“President-elect Trump was very impressed with the candidates [he’s considered]. He wants to put a Latino in the Cabinet, he’s not doing it just for show.”
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:11 PM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Russia has nothing really damaging on any Republicans (out of that particular hack; they might have other, better, dirt).
. . . that we've seen, right? Or is there a dump of the RNC hack somewhere?
posted by petebest at 1:12 PM on December 29, 2016
. . . that we've seen, right? Or is there a dump of the RNC hack somewhere?
posted by petebest at 1:12 PM on December 29, 2016
Secretary for Taco Bowls
Life's purpose, discovered.
posted by dis_integration at 1:13 PM on December 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
Life's purpose, discovered.
posted by dis_integration at 1:13 PM on December 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
We know that both DNC and RNC servers were hacked. Right about now every intelligent Republican should be asking themselves, what compromising information did Russia collect on us, and when and where will they use it?
I mean, the fact that the DNC's dirty laundry got aired when and how it did certainly contributed to Trump's win, but (based on the thin-ness of some of it) I'm guessing we've seen the worst of it already, so at least we can hope there's nothing damning in store. Republicans have no such assurance.
Sure, today we've got Trump's idiotic embrace of Russia and Putin's warm welcome in response, but that will last until the precise moment when it advantages Putin in any way to throw Trump and/or any other Republican he can damage under the bus.
The limbo bar was dropped right on the ground and the republicans still slithered under it.
What could possibly be in emails that are worse than what Republicans have done and said in broad daylight?
posted by srboisvert at 1:14 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
I mean, the fact that the DNC's dirty laundry got aired when and how it did certainly contributed to Trump's win, but (based on the thin-ness of some of it) I'm guessing we've seen the worst of it already, so at least we can hope there's nothing damning in store. Republicans have no such assurance.
Sure, today we've got Trump's idiotic embrace of Russia and Putin's warm welcome in response, but that will last until the precise moment when it advantages Putin in any way to throw Trump and/or any other Republican he can damage under the bus.
The limbo bar was dropped right on the ground and the republicans still slithered under it.
What could possibly be in emails that are worse than what Republicans have done and said in broad daylight?
posted by srboisvert at 1:14 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm not the only person to wonder if many Republicans aren't afraid to call out Russia precisely because they know, or suspect, that it has dirt on them.
The dirt must be quite serious. I'm surprised the Trump Republicans are being so obvious about it by refusing to critique Russia directly. Criticize Russia publicly, and work on pro-Russia initiatives privately. It's the easiest and most obvious solution for deflecting attention, and the fact they're not pursuing that strategy shows the Russians not only have dirt, but are using it for maximum humiliation.
posted by honestcoyote at 1:14 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
The dirt must be quite serious. I'm surprised the Trump Republicans are being so obvious about it by refusing to critique Russia directly. Criticize Russia publicly, and work on pro-Russia initiatives privately. It's the easiest and most obvious solution for deflecting attention, and the fact they're not pursuing that strategy shows the Russians not only have dirt, but are using it for maximum humiliation.
posted by honestcoyote at 1:14 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
What could possibly be in emails that are worse than what Republicans have done and said in broad daylight?
Live boys, dead girls.
posted by Etrigan at 1:17 PM on December 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
Live boys, dead girls.
posted by Etrigan at 1:17 PM on December 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
Coventry, again, if you don't think releasing the atomic details of the IP addresses, domain records, and malware hashes that were (a) used to conduct the attacks in question, and (b) known to be used by Russian actors counts as new information about attribution, then you're either not engaging in good faith, or you lack the understanding to engage at a meaningful level.
The details US-CERT has released are the same kinds of details private sector labs like Crowdstrike and BitDefender are using, except the private labs will have more restricted vantage points. DHS sharing these indicators at the very least allows these private-sector companies to corroborate or dispute each step of USG's analysis. It's fine to say that there is no conclusive proof because network indicators are not iron-clad and incontrovertible evidence, but it's just factually false to say this does not count as more detail as to the attribution of the attacks. Cyber threats do not show up with "MADE IN KREMLIN" on them.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:17 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
The details US-CERT has released are the same kinds of details private sector labs like Crowdstrike and BitDefender are using, except the private labs will have more restricted vantage points. DHS sharing these indicators at the very least allows these private-sector companies to corroborate or dispute each step of USG's analysis. It's fine to say that there is no conclusive proof because network indicators are not iron-clad and incontrovertible evidence, but it's just factually false to say this does not count as more detail as to the attribution of the attacks. Cyber threats do not show up with "MADE IN KREMLIN" on them.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:17 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
tonycpsu: You and I don't have to argue about attribution. I now accept that the Russian Federation was behind the attacks. But there is no new information here on the subject. A list of IP addresses is not evidence. Heck, almost a quarter of the addresses appear to be Tor exit nodes, so it's quite a sloppy assembly of indicators.
posted by Coventry at 1:21 PM on December 29, 2016
posted by Coventry at 1:21 PM on December 29, 2016
I'll miss the taco trucks on every corner most of all. Any why isn't Taco Trucks on Every Corner Guy the token Hispanic?
posted by kirkaracha at 1:21 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:21 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I hear Ana Navarro is available.
posted by corb at 1:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
There is nothing sloppy about recording all of the addresses that were involved in an incident. Tor exit nodes change minute-by-minute, so blacklisting any Tor exit nodes from an indicator list is not a sensible practice. Latching onto the fact that a minority of the IP addresses (just one of the indicator types that were released) are/were at one time Tor nodes to cast doubt on the entirety of the analysis reeks of desperation.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:26 PM on December 29, 2016
posted by tonycpsu at 1:26 PM on December 29, 2016
Given the current political climate I doubt any Rs care about live boys or dead girls, since their deluded followers would likely only find some excuse for either or refuse to accept any evidence entirely.
I wonder if Russia has a bunch of RNC staffers chatting about how they blatantly don't give a shit about any of the right-wing shibboleths though.
posted by supercrayon at 1:27 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wonder if Russia has a bunch of RNC staffers chatting about how they blatantly don't give a shit about any of the right-wing shibboleths though.
posted by supercrayon at 1:27 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or is there a dump of the RNC hack somewhere?
I did qualify with the (not unreasonable) supposition that the RNC probably discussed the same tedious shit the DNC did. The DNC leaks were all campaign sausage-making, occasionally unsavory but never particularly surprising. I mean, I suppose the RNC's emails might be all about supplying the sufficient number of rentboys to keep certain party operatives happy, but there's no really good reason to believe there's anything nearly that juicy in there. Campaign internals are actually pretty boring.
posted by jackbishop at 1:28 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I did qualify with the (not unreasonable) supposition that the RNC probably discussed the same tedious shit the DNC did. The DNC leaks were all campaign sausage-making, occasionally unsavory but never particularly surprising. I mean, I suppose the RNC's emails might be all about supplying the sufficient number of rentboys to keep certain party operatives happy, but there's no really good reason to believe there's anything nearly that juicy in there. Campaign internals are actually pretty boring.
posted by jackbishop at 1:28 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is a real tweet from the Russian Embassy in the UK.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:29 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:29 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hey remember when we used to think WikiLeaks wasn't a front for Russia?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:31 PM on December 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:31 PM on December 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
I don't like living in the future.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
tonycpsu, I'm not latching on to anything. Either the indicators should block all tor nodes, or none. The whole point is that they are anonymous. And I'm not casting doubt on any analysis. There is none here to cast doubt on, just a restatement of previous assertions, which I mostly now accept.
posted by Coventry at 1:33 PM on December 29, 2016
posted by Coventry at 1:33 PM on December 29, 2016
A list of IP addresses is not evidence.
I'm pretty sure there are some convicted people somewhere who would like that to be the case. But then, cyber is a big problem.
Oh say, can you see by the dawn's early tweet what response Comrade Don will tenaciously tap out one furious character at a time?
posted by petebest at 1:34 PM on December 29, 2016
I'm pretty sure there are some convicted people somewhere who would like that to be the case. But then, cyber is a big problem.
Oh say, can you see by the dawn's early tweet what response Comrade Don will tenaciously tap out one furious character at a time?
posted by petebest at 1:34 PM on December 29, 2016
If you tie an IP address to a location or individual, that's evidence. That's not what the report provides.
posted by Coventry at 1:35 PM on December 29, 2016
posted by Coventry at 1:35 PM on December 29, 2016
This is a real tweet from the Russian Embassy in the UK.
1. It's true, the real world is like kindergarden.
2. Interesting how ok some of the populace and political community is ok with a Russia openly mocking the current duly elected US President.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:39 PM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
1. It's true, the real world is like kindergarden.
2. Interesting how ok some of the populace and political community is ok with a Russia openly mocking the current duly elected US President.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:39 PM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is a real tweet from the Russian Embassy in the UK.
It's Trumpening.
posted by petebest at 1:39 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's Trumpening.
posted by petebest at 1:39 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
> Either the indicators should block all tor nodes, or none.
I work in network security, and that's not how indicator sharing works. Network indicators in particular are almost never shared with the purpose of blocking the addresses in question, because the false positive rate is astronomical with virtual hosting, NAT, etc. and ineffective because it's trivial to change IPs. Host indicators are more likely to be used to blacklist, since file hashes, registry keys, etc. are much more reliable. If you don't understand these concepts, then I've been wasting my time.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:40 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I work in network security, and that's not how indicator sharing works. Network indicators in particular are almost never shared with the purpose of blocking the addresses in question, because the false positive rate is astronomical with virtual hosting, NAT, etc. and ineffective because it's trivial to change IPs. Host indicators are more likely to be used to blacklist, since file hashes, registry keys, etc. are much more reliable. If you don't understand these concepts, then I've been wasting my time.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:40 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hey remember when we used to think WikiLeaks wasn't a front for Russia?
the people in their @'s TOTALLY KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO SAY THAT because, of course, you're being paid to do so.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:45 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
the people in their @'s TOTALLY KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO SAY THAT because, of course, you're being paid to do so.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:45 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments removed. Coventry, digging in on the Yeah But thing every time the Russian hacking stuff comes up has gotten to be a conspicuous routine, please make an effort to do less of this going forward.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:55 PM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:55 PM on December 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
there's no really good reason to believe there's anything nearly that juicy in there. Campaign internals are actually pretty boring.
Trump's NeonGreenShirts at the RNC were pretty egregious, as was the delegate intimidation (remember skinheads blocking hotel rooms?). The only reason things haven't exploded around it is because basically every major media source backed off the issue once the delegates weren't actually unbound, and no one knows exactly for certain who was involved on the RNC side and what they did.
If there was a hack of RNC emails, then there are a lot of petit-functionaires that are absolutely blackmailable. Maybe not the head players, but that doesn't matter because that's not where the power comes from GOP-side right now.
posted by corb at 2:01 PM on December 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Trump's NeonGreenShirts at the RNC were pretty egregious, as was the delegate intimidation (remember skinheads blocking hotel rooms?). The only reason things haven't exploded around it is because basically every major media source backed off the issue once the delegates weren't actually unbound, and no one knows exactly for certain who was involved on the RNC side and what they did.
If there was a hack of RNC emails, then there are a lot of petit-functionaires that are absolutely blackmailable. Maybe not the head players, but that doesn't matter because that's not where the power comes from GOP-side right now.
posted by corb at 2:01 PM on December 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
But then, cyber is a big problem
I still cringe at "nuke-U-ler", I'm so not ready for four years of presidential word salad.
posted by peeedro at 2:03 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I still cringe at "nuke-U-ler", I'm so not ready for four years of presidential word salad.
posted by peeedro at 2:03 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Twitter is toast"
I'll bet I know where they can find some investors . . .
The microblogging platform's chief technology officer, Adam Messinger, tweeted that he would leave the company and "take some time off", while Josh McFarland, vice president of product at Twitter, also said he was exiting the company. Both executives announced their departure on Tuesday.
Meanwhile, last month, Adam Bain stepped down as chief operating officer last month to be replaced by chief financial officer Anthony Noto, who has yet to be replaced. Twitter has also lost leaders from business development, media and commerce, media partnerships, human resources, and engineering this year.
posted by petebest at 2:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'll bet I know where they can find some investors . . .
The microblogging platform's chief technology officer, Adam Messinger, tweeted that he would leave the company and "take some time off", while Josh McFarland, vice president of product at Twitter, also said he was exiting the company. Both executives announced their departure on Tuesday.
Meanwhile, last month, Adam Bain stepped down as chief operating officer last month to be replaced by chief financial officer Anthony Noto, who has yet to be replaced. Twitter has also lost leaders from business development, media and commerce, media partnerships, human resources, and engineering this year.
posted by petebest at 2:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Check out some of the poetry previously published by Milo Yiannopoulos, Simon & Schuster's newly acquired up-and-coming literary star. (More here.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:44 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:44 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wonder if Russia has a bunch of RNC staffers chatting about how they blatantly don't give a shit about any of the right-wing shibboleths though.
The president-elect regularly openly contradicts all kinds of former Republican and Tea Party shibboleths. Nobody on the right seems to care.
posted by srboisvert at 2:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
The president-elect regularly openly contradicts all kinds of former Republican and Tea Party shibboleths. Nobody on the right seems to care.
posted by srboisvert at 2:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I still cringe at "nuke-U-ler"
It is important to understand that Trump doesn't use words in the way that most normal people use them, but he does use them deliberately. As a number of people, including but not limited to fellow asshole manipulator Scott Adams have pointed out, Trump is producing a very pure form of what was originally called propaganda before that word got toxic. His word salads are carefully constructed to create an impression, often several very different impressions at the same time for different recipients. If you're not in one of those target groups, though, all you see is salad.
Trump has been doing this a long time because it's the only way he could have possibly kept his business empire afloat after so many devastating failures. He has succeeded by making weakness sound like strength and failure sound like genius often enough to get people to invest in upside-down projects that have no chance of success, like his doomed to failure casino empire which he took public so that the debt would fall on the investors instead of himself. "Other people's money," motherfuckers.
The difference between Trump and most other propagandists and advertisers is that he is shameless about not actually caring whether his statements carry any real meaning; they're ALL persuasion, words chosen to evoke feelings stronger than rational analysis in the right target. The fact that those words analyzed as sentences don't mean anything doesn't matter; the right target will hear what they want and expect and react accordingly.
In order to understand a Trump tweet, you have to understand that he starts with words and word combinations which will create an emotional attachment in the right listener, and often he builds a statement with several of these that are meant to form wildly contradictory impressions in different listeners. Then he strings them together with connectors in the most economical way to make what sounds like a statement, but he doesn't really care what that statement might actually say. His biggest weakness is that he doesn't really pay any attention to "actual meaning," and when you try to derive actual meaning from what Trump says sometimes it's at wild variance with anything consistent or sane.
But if you look at words, particularly repetition and pairings, you find Trump's statements have a lot of consistency. It's just not at a level you're meant to consciously notice.
This also, of course, makes Twitter the perfect vector for Trump's persuasive volleys, since he has full control of his own message and they don't need to be long. I don't believe he will ever give a press conference if he can avoid it, and I was only half-joking when I faked the SOTU as a tweet.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:01 PM on December 29, 2016 [27 favorites]
It is important to understand that Trump doesn't use words in the way that most normal people use them, but he does use them deliberately. As a number of people, including but not limited to fellow asshole manipulator Scott Adams have pointed out, Trump is producing a very pure form of what was originally called propaganda before that word got toxic. His word salads are carefully constructed to create an impression, often several very different impressions at the same time for different recipients. If you're not in one of those target groups, though, all you see is salad.
Trump has been doing this a long time because it's the only way he could have possibly kept his business empire afloat after so many devastating failures. He has succeeded by making weakness sound like strength and failure sound like genius often enough to get people to invest in upside-down projects that have no chance of success, like his doomed to failure casino empire which he took public so that the debt would fall on the investors instead of himself. "Other people's money," motherfuckers.
The difference between Trump and most other propagandists and advertisers is that he is shameless about not actually caring whether his statements carry any real meaning; they're ALL persuasion, words chosen to evoke feelings stronger than rational analysis in the right target. The fact that those words analyzed as sentences don't mean anything doesn't matter; the right target will hear what they want and expect and react accordingly.
In order to understand a Trump tweet, you have to understand that he starts with words and word combinations which will create an emotional attachment in the right listener, and often he builds a statement with several of these that are meant to form wildly contradictory impressions in different listeners. Then he strings them together with connectors in the most economical way to make what sounds like a statement, but he doesn't really care what that statement might actually say. His biggest weakness is that he doesn't really pay any attention to "actual meaning," and when you try to derive actual meaning from what Trump says sometimes it's at wild variance with anything consistent or sane.
But if you look at words, particularly repetition and pairings, you find Trump's statements have a lot of consistency. It's just not at a level you're meant to consciously notice.
This also, of course, makes Twitter the perfect vector for Trump's persuasive volleys, since he has full control of his own message and they don't need to be long. I don't believe he will ever give a press conference if he can avoid it, and I was only half-joking when I faked the SOTU as a tweet.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:01 PM on December 29, 2016 [27 favorites]
Interesting how ok some of the populace and political community is ok with a Russia openly mocking the current duly elected US President.
Not really, considering that they themselves have been doing the same thing for the past eight years.
posted by Candleman at 3:03 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Not really, considering that they themselves have been doing the same thing for the past eight years.
posted by Candleman at 3:03 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
They're going to be okay with Russia roling tanks over Europe as well, which is a little more concerning.
posted by Artw at 3:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
Check out some of the poetry previously published by Milo Yiannopoulos, Simon & Schuster's newly acquired up-and-coming literary star. (More here.)
I read through those so you don't have to. Such bad poetry. So much racism. Lots of neoreactionary dogma evident at the early date of 2007. In hindsight very much a representative text of the period's Ur-Alt-Right thought just before the various vile entities merged to form the movement we know and love.
I absolutely cannot help but see the "poem" on the left page here as prophetic. A sociopathic narcissist's dream of a future God of Sociopathic Narcissists to worship and glom onto like a fascist remora.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:12 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I read through those so you don't have to. Such bad poetry. So much racism. Lots of neoreactionary dogma evident at the early date of 2007. In hindsight very much a representative text of the period's Ur-Alt-Right thought just before the various vile entities merged to form the movement we know and love.
I absolutely cannot help but see the "poem" on the left page here as prophetic. A sociopathic narcissist's dream of a future God of Sociopathic Narcissists to worship and glom onto like a fascist remora.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:12 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump says we should "move on" but he is going to meet with intelligence leaders next week to get "updated on the facts".
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:13 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:13 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
(Of course I'm kind of taking as read that any and all US intelligence assets as relate to Russia are going to get burned day one, if they haven't been burned already, and from that day onwards anything the US knows Putin knows.)
posted by Artw at 3:16 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:16 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
They're going to be okay with Russia roling tanks over Europe as well, which is a little more concerning.
To a certain extent perhaps but at some point the Republican corporate overlords would see this as bad for bidness. Then you'll see some feathers ruffled and at least some posturing, if not action. They'd at least lean on Pence REAL HARD in hopes that he could push Trump into some sort of resistance. Pence, for all his far right and repugnant views on social issues, is still an establishment Republican.
posted by Ber at 3:22 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
To a certain extent perhaps but at some point the Republican corporate overlords would see this as bad for bidness. Then you'll see some feathers ruffled and at least some posturing, if not action. They'd at least lean on Pence REAL HARD in hopes that he could push Trump into some sort of resistance. Pence, for all his far right and repugnant views on social issues, is still an establishment Republican.
posted by Ber at 3:22 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Congress leaves Trump with unlimited war powers
For much of President Barack Obama's second term, Congress sought to pass a formal authorization for the war against the Islamic State — both to signal the country’s resolve and to provide a check on the president's unfettered war powers.posted by kirkaracha at 3:30 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
That failure to act now means Donald Trump will effectively have free rein to wage what he calls a global U.S. war on radical Islam, a prospect that terrifies many Democrats.
“You could easily see him wanting to ramp up the war on terror and take it to new parts of the globe,” said Rep. Adam Schiff of California, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. “There are few limits on what he can do.”
Oh yeah. "People are literally risking their lives for this intelligence in some cases, but I guess I'll begrudgingly ask what they found out next week sometime." [fake]
posted by zachlipton at 3:33 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:33 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
I wonder how many European countries are now developing their own nuclear weapons.
posted by Coventry at 3:34 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 3:34 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Reid: White House options for 2020 resemble ‘an old-folks’ home’
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wonder how many European countries are now developing their own nuclear weapons.
Well Britain and France already have them, and not just simple heavy A-bombs like the North Koreans have, but practically deliverable H-bombs.
As for the rest of Europe, Germany could probably get them if they wanted, but their history probably prohibits that, and the rest would have serious difficulties with the scale of production needed to make plutonium. They could take the Israeli path of getting the plutonium from US, but that introduces its own ... complexities.
The thing is there really isn't much point in the modern world to getting heavy A-bombs that could only be delivered by huge bombers you can't defend or afford, and H-bombs and miniturized A-bombs that are more amenable for missile delivery are much harder to develop, and almost impossible to develop without testing which is impossible to conceal.
It's hard to say exactly where India and Pakistan are, but their tests were of the simple heavy A-bomb variety.
So tl;dr answer is, probably nobody.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well Britain and France already have them, and not just simple heavy A-bombs like the North Koreans have, but practically deliverable H-bombs.
As for the rest of Europe, Germany could probably get them if they wanted, but their history probably prohibits that, and the rest would have serious difficulties with the scale of production needed to make plutonium. They could take the Israeli path of getting the plutonium from US, but that introduces its own ... complexities.
The thing is there really isn't much point in the modern world to getting heavy A-bombs that could only be delivered by huge bombers you can't defend or afford, and H-bombs and miniturized A-bombs that are more amenable for missile delivery are much harder to develop, and almost impossible to develop without testing which is impossible to conceal.
It's hard to say exactly where India and Pakistan are, but their tests were of the simple heavy A-bomb variety.
So tl;dr answer is, probably nobody.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Reid: White House options for 2020 resemble ‘an old-folks’ home’
Other than his DNC speech, Obama was almost an unknown in 2004. There are plenty of youngish Democrats (Gillibrand, who just turned 50, Booker, who is 47, Klobuchar, who is 56, Chris Murphy, who is 43, and Kamala Harris, who is 52) who now have four years to build resumes.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
Other than his DNC speech, Obama was almost an unknown in 2004. There are plenty of youngish Democrats (Gillibrand, who just turned 50, Booker, who is 47, Klobuchar, who is 56, Chris Murphy, who is 43, and Kamala Harris, who is 52) who now have four years to build resumes.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
The UK is of course in a death spiral of its own right now and unlikely to be much help.
There's bombs in Germany, Italy the Mertherlands and Belgium right now but they belong to the US so won't be going anywhere. If Russia actually reaches any of those countries it'll be interesting to see what happens.
There's also a ton of US bombs in Turkey and god knows what the deal is going to be there. Turkeys getting pretty tight with Russia so they might get kicked out at some point.
posted by Artw at 3:57 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's bombs in Germany, Italy the Mertherlands and Belgium right now but they belong to the US so won't be going anywhere. If Russia actually reaches any of those countries it'll be interesting to see what happens.
There's also a ton of US bombs in Turkey and god knows what the deal is going to be there. Turkeys getting pretty tight with Russia so they might get kicked out at some point.
posted by Artw at 3:57 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The situation with all the US bombs in Europe is kind of strange. They're all equipped with PAL's, meaning they can't be used if you don't have the 8-digit code, but it is also now known that after Robert McNamara went to all the trouble to get PAL's installed on all our weapons and share how to do it with the Russians so they could secure their weapons too, that Curtis LeMay went around after him making sure all the codes were set to 00000000 so that none of his precious bodily fluids babies would be unusable.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:15 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:15 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
My iPhone just offered to dial 00000000...
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 4:20 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 4:20 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yeah not_that_e. I don't know what happened after, but the fact that LeMay's stunt has been made public would suggest to me that we now have PAL's with nontrivial access codes, but I don't actually know that.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:23 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:23 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah not_that_e. I don't know what happened after, but the fact that LeMay's stunt has been made public would suggest to me that we now have PAL's with nontrivial access codes, but I don't actually know that.
12345678
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
12345678
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Amazing. That's the same combination I have on my luggage!
posted by mrgoat at 4:27 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by mrgoat at 4:27 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
LOL well I wouldn't call my email passcode nontrivial (FUCK now I have to change my email passcode)
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:30 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:30 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am possessed by the spirit of the Trump! 87654321 <-- NOBODY will ever guess THAT! SUCKERS!
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
You put a passcode on your email? What are you trying to hide?
posted by contraption at 4:33 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by contraption at 4:33 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
PORN SITE ACCESS CODES. They send that shit in clear text, and it costs sixty bucks a month for *redacted*.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:34 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:34 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
They're going to be okay with Russia roling tanks over Europe as well, which is a little more concerning.To a certain extent perhaps but at some point the Republican corporate overlords would see this as bad for bidness.
No way, it's great for business. For military contractors. Who are the Republicans' primary constituency. It would be a conflict that the entire military was designed to fight since the beginning of the Cold War: expensive hardware and regular armies duking it out in Europe. You would hear the champagne glasses clinking all the way from Richmond and McMansion sales in NoVA would skyrocket.
posted by indubitable at 4:34 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dow is up 8.15% since Election Day, on pace for best performance from Election Day to year end since Herbert Hoover was elected 1928
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:36 PM on December 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:36 PM on December 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Trump is producing a very pure form of what was originally called propaganda before that word got toxic. His word salads are carefully constructed to create an impression
Double-plus good duck speak.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:37 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Double-plus good duck speak.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:37 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
since Herbert Hoover was elected 1928
Well it's clearly time to go all-in.
How do I short the whole market, again?
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:37 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well it's clearly time to go all-in.
How do I short the whole market, again?
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:37 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
And the economy was swell after that!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Other than his DNC speech, Obama was almost an unknown in 2004. There are plenty of youngish Democrats (Gillibrand, who just turned 50, Booker, who is 47, Klobuchar, who is 56, Chris Murphy, who is 43, and Kamala Harris, who is 52) who now have four years to build resumes.
Yes. My money (literally) is on Amy Klobuchar in 2020 (recently in Estonia), possibly on a ticket with Joe Kennedy. Hoping to continue my current streak of seven winning politics bets in a row, and more importantly have a progressive retake the White House.
posted by Wordshore at 4:41 PM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Yes. My money (literally) is on Amy Klobuchar in 2020 (recently in Estonia), possibly on a ticket with Joe Kennedy. Hoping to continue my current streak of seven winning politics bets in a row, and more importantly have a progressive retake the White House.
posted by Wordshore at 4:41 PM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Wordshore, I hope to hell we are linking your comment in the summer of 2020.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
How do I short the whole market, again?
You might want to stick to just one bank, and make sure you know the right people beforehand.
posted by Coventry at 4:45 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
You might want to stick to just one bank, and make sure you know the right people beforehand.
posted by Coventry at 4:45 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
His word salads are carefully constructed to create an impression, often several very different impressions at the same time for different recipients.
I couldn't put my finger on what I've been thinking about this until you put it this way, Bringer Tom—thanks.
And I really, really don't like painting with this broad a brush, but as somebody here said recently, Trump is what a smart person sounds like to a dumb person. Whereas for most of us word salad is a ridiculous way to communicate, it seems like so many Trump "recipients" actually hear in word salad (making Twitter a superb way to communicate with them).
They lack the attention span or depth of reasoning it takes to demand more from their leaders than a bunch of non-sequitur dog-whistles and tribal signifiers strung together, so to their ears a Trump tweet sounds no less credible than a poli sci lecture at Stanford. "Something something radical Islamic terror something losers something something Great Again" —for these people, that's not a clever internet expression... it's actually what their cognitive process looks like.
posted by Rykey at 4:46 PM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
I couldn't put my finger on what I've been thinking about this until you put it this way, Bringer Tom—thanks.
And I really, really don't like painting with this broad a brush, but as somebody here said recently, Trump is what a smart person sounds like to a dumb person. Whereas for most of us word salad is a ridiculous way to communicate, it seems like so many Trump "recipients" actually hear in word salad (making Twitter a superb way to communicate with them).
They lack the attention span or depth of reasoning it takes to demand more from their leaders than a bunch of non-sequitur dog-whistles and tribal signifiers strung together, so to their ears a Trump tweet sounds no less credible than a poli sci lecture at Stanford. "Something something radical Islamic terror something losers something something Great Again" —for these people, that's not a clever internet expression... it's actually what their cognitive process looks like.
posted by Rykey at 4:46 PM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Tucker Carlson and Glenn Greenwald join forces to dismiss Russian hacking news.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
How do I short the whole market, again?
You might want to stick to just one bank
Considering its boom represents over 1/5 of the Dow's rise so far, that bank right now would be Goldman Sachs.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
You might want to stick to just one bank
Considering its boom represents over 1/5 of the Dow's rise so far, that bank right now would be Goldman Sachs.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
that bank right now would be Goldman Sachs.
Well that's just great. All I need is about five more zeroes in my net worth and they might actually take my action.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:55 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well that's just great. All I need is about five more zeroes in my net worth and they might actually take my action.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:55 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tucker Carlson and Glenn Greenwald join forces to dismiss Russian hacking news.
what a dick
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:57 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
what a dick
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:57 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
In this year's viewing of It's A Wonderful Life, the bank run scene felt much more immediate. Welcome to Potterstan.
posted by EarBucket at 5:03 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by EarBucket at 5:03 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Did Trump ever release his medical records? That word salad sounds a lot like dementia.
posted by LilithSilver at 5:04 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by LilithSilver at 5:04 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why did I read Milo Yiannopoulos' poetry why.
posted by corb at 5:06 PM on December 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:06 PM on December 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Every time I think that my opinion of Greenwald can't get lower, he proves me wrong.
posted by octothorpe at 5:07 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:07 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Re: Milo poetry, I mentioned this poem above but will transcribe it for full effect:
I'll follow the gods
Who make the most noise
We are all without conscience
But some of us are looking
At the star
Dark prophecy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:25 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'll follow the gods
Who make the most noise
We are all without conscience
But some of us are looking
At the star
Dark prophecy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:25 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
EarBucket: “Welcome to Potterstan.”That's the timeless wisdom of Uncle Billy, "Not every heel was in Germany and Japan."
posted by ob1quixote at 5:25 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
After his involvement with Gamergate, I expect the response to his book will be "all about ethics in book reviewing".
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:25 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:25 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Tucker Carlson and Glenn Greenwald join forces to dismiss Russian hacking news.
It's like a grade-school Hitler-Stalin Pact.
Why did I read Milo Yiannopoulos' poetry why.
Is it better or worse than Vogon poetry?
posted by octobersurprise at 5:35 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's like a grade-school Hitler-Stalin Pact.
Why did I read Milo Yiannopoulos' poetry why.
Is it better or worse than Vogon poetry?
posted by octobersurprise at 5:35 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Speaking of Milo,
Daily Beast Breitbart Editor Milo Yiannopoulos Takes $100,000 for Charity, Gives $0
If you want to email the publisher who oversees the Simon & Schuster imprint putting out this book, it's Louise.Burke@simonandschuster.com
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:40 PM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Daily Beast Breitbart Editor Milo Yiannopoulos Takes $100,000 for Charity, Gives $0
Yiannopoulos promised in January to create a college scholarship fund for “white men who wish to pursue their post-secondary education” that would be awarded in “early summer 2016.” The fund has raised somewhere between $100,000 and $250,000 to date, Yiannopoulos told The Daily Beast via email.Also The Chicago Review of Books sent out this tweet: In response to this disgusting validation of hate, we will not cover a single @simonschuster book in 2017.
But the Yiannopoulos Privilege Grant has not filed any paperwork to become a charity in the United States. When asked if an application for tax-exempt status had been sent by his lawyers to the Internal Revenue Service, Yiannopoulos said, “I’ll check.”
If you want to email the publisher who oversees the Simon & Schuster imprint putting out this book, it's Louise.Burke@simonandschuster.com
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:40 PM on December 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
I went to see if I could find more excerpts online and found, from the Houston Press, Milo Yiannopoulos's Self Published Poetry Book Contains Unattributed Tori Amos Lyrics
Tori is not the only artist to have her work repurposed in Yiannopoulos's tome. Lines from Britney Spears and Mariah Carey are inserted into stanzas. Perhaps the weirdest lifted quote comes from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Fool for Love". Yiannopoulos includes a famous non sequitur from the vampire Drusilla, "The King of cups expects a picnic / But this is not his birthday."posted by corb at 5:41 PM on December 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Well Britain and France already have them, and not just simple heavy A-bombs like the North Koreans have, but practically deliverable H-bombs.
Britain has ostensibly deliverable bombs but if you have been following the tribulations of the Royal Navy you might come away with the sense that they are closer to North Korean levels of efficacy than Britain might want to admit. They have had mass murder onboard a sub, they have had subs run aground several times and struggle to keep even one nuke sub in service at a time.
posted by srboisvert at 5:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Britain has ostensibly deliverable bombs but if you have been following the tribulations of the Royal Navy you might come away with the sense that they are closer to North Korean levels of efficacy than Britain might want to admit. They have had mass murder onboard a sub, they have had subs run aground several times and struggle to keep even one nuke sub in service at a time.
posted by srboisvert at 5:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Man Given 3-Year Sentence for Insulting Putin
Kazakh criminal law says one cannot incite “social, national, generic, racial, class, or religious hatred” and is prohibited from insulting “the national honor and dignity of religious feelings of citizens.” Although Kazakhstan and Russia are separate countries, Dosov was still charged and sentenced under that law. He called Putin a fascist, among other insults, and apparently wrote that Putin was “ruining” Russia.
posted by futz at 5:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Kazakh criminal law says one cannot incite “social, national, generic, racial, class, or religious hatred” and is prohibited from insulting “the national honor and dignity of religious feelings of citizens.” Although Kazakhstan and Russia are separate countries, Dosov was still charged and sentenced under that law. He called Putin a fascist, among other insults, and apparently wrote that Putin was “ruining” Russia.
posted by futz at 5:47 PM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
As for Milo and his poetry, if I really had to read a Fascist poet I'd stick to Ezra Pound. As noxious as his political and racial views were, at least he could write, and at least he's dead.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:00 PM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:00 PM on December 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Milo Yiannopoulos's Self Published Poetry Book Contains Unattributed Tori Amos Lyrics
Irony, thy name is MRA.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:00 PM on December 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
Irony, thy name is MRA.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:00 PM on December 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
From corb's link: When confronted with accusations of plagiarism on Twitter Yiannopoulos freely admitted that the collection was made up of other people's words, and that it was an example of "sampling" like in music.
"There isn't a line in the whole thing that isn't from somewhere else. That's obviously the point," said Yiannopoulos. "You actually, really believe that it could possibly be anything but a giant pisstake? That it could be 'deception'? Really?"
posted by christopherious at 6:09 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
"There isn't a line in the whole thing that isn't from somewhere else. That's obviously the point," said Yiannopoulos. "You actually, really believe that it could possibly be anything but a giant pisstake? That it could be 'deception'? Really?"
posted by christopherious at 6:09 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Klobuchar/Franken 2020. aka "The Full-Minnesota".
posted by misterpatrick at 6:09 PM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 6:09 PM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
Well, this is interesting: Top-Secret Snowden Document Reveals What the NSA Knew About Previous Russian Hacking
Once again, I am astonished Obama waited to reveal evidence of Russian hacking until it was far too late to do anything about it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:11 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Once again, I am astonished Obama waited to reveal evidence of Russian hacking until it was far too late to do anything about it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:11 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
The first sentence of that article is untrue, and it makes me question the motives and reliability of the author.
To date, the only public evidence that the Russian government was responsible for hacks of the DNC and key Democratic figures has been circumstantial and far short of conclusive, courtesy of private research firms with a financial stake in such claims.
posted by diogenes at 6:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
To date, the only public evidence that the Russian government was responsible for hacks of the DNC and key Democratic figures has been circumstantial and far short of conclusive, courtesy of private research firms with a financial stake in such claims.
posted by diogenes at 6:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Random worrying thought about the Russian hacks: Trump not acknowledging it means he will do nothing to pursue it after he takes office either, and probably will reverse any actions taken by Obama. If Trump dismisses the charges and commands the intelligence agencies not to pursue continued investigation, it only makes it easier for Russia to continue their activities. And if Trump is so blind (or deliberately cozy with Russia) to dismiss this threat to our country, it'll only make it easier for continued deeper penetration by Russian operatives into our government and intelligence agencies.
In other words, we're fucked.
posted by StrawberryPie at 6:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
In other words, we're fucked.
posted by StrawberryPie at 6:32 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Once again, I am astonished Obama waited to reveal evidence of Russian hacking until it was far too late to do anything about it.
He believed, as we all did, that Trump would be defeated and that a sane Administration would deal with the Russians' meddling.
In looking back at my contributions to these threads, I'm haunted most by these two comments:
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 PM on December 29, 2016 [27 favorites]
He believed, as we all did, that Trump would be defeated and that a sane Administration would deal with the Russians' meddling.
In looking back at my contributions to these threads, I'm haunted most by these two comments:
"On Nov 8, Clinton's claims of a mandate will fly in the face of reality. She only won by not being Trump." (Erick Erickson)and:
Oh, hell no. Fuck this erasure shit. She'll win because black, brown, LGBTQ, immigrant and progressive votes are going to save your sorry white conservative ass and drag your country into the future over your pathetic bleatings.
when this is all over and Hillary is president we will laugh and laugh about this and The Whelk, corb and quidnuc kid will write a fanfic minutes of a Trump Cabinet meeting and we will laugh and laughI've been really down in the last week. After the election, I was shocked, angry, anxious, defiant. Now I'm just... numbly holding my breath.
please
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 PM on December 29, 2016 [27 favorites]
There isn't a line in the whole thing that isn't from somewhere else. That's obviously the point," said Yiannopoulos. "You actually, really believe that it could possibly be anything but a giant pisstake? That it could be 'deception'? Really?
Man, at least old school fascists were concerned about the authenticity of their art. It was sort of a huge deal for them.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:36 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Man, at least old school fascists were concerned about the authenticity of their art. It was sort of a huge deal for them.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:36 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
On the lighter side of the news, fresh from Charlie Brooker's 2016 Wipe, here's the Trump remix "I'm Sorry Ms Clinton". (I'd post a link to the full special, but this thread is depressed enough as it is.)
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've been filled with a mixture of fear, anger, and rage for some time now. I'm not entirely sure what, if anything, I can do, but I want to help fight.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm thinking about finally taking the grad school plunge to get a degree in public policy with a human rights concentration (plus I just found out I might be eligible for a pretty great scholarship to do it). I just don't know if there's going to be any humans left to defend the rights of....
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
"There isn't a line in the whole thing that isn't from somewhere else. That's obviously the point," said Yiannopoulos. "You actually, really believe that it could possibly be anything but a giant pisstake? That it could be 'deception'? Really?"
"It's a social experiment!" [fake]
posted by jaduncan at 6:49 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
"It's a social experiment!" [fake]
posted by jaduncan at 6:49 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
taking the grad school plunge to get a degree in public policy with a human rights concentration
I think that you'd be terrific at this. Seriously, honestly, & sincerely :)
posted by futz at 6:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think that you'd be terrific at this. Seriously, honestly, & sincerely :)
posted by futz at 6:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Dow is up 8.15% since Election Day, on pace for best performance from Election Day to year end since Herbert Hoover was elected 1928.
>Well it's clearly time to go all-in.
Should have gone all in the day Obama was first elected. You would be up 160% today.
posted by JackFlash at 6:59 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
>Well it's clearly time to go all-in.
Should have gone all in the day Obama was first elected. You would be up 160% today.
posted by JackFlash at 6:59 PM on December 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think that you'd be terrific at this. Seriously, honestly, & sincerely :)
Agreed, but would tiva be allowed/be able find a venue to use their newfound skills+knowledge for the betterment of all?
as opposed to resorting to being employed in weaponizing that kind of experience in order to afford rent and food for them and theirs?
Does Metafilter do scholarship funds?
posted by porpoise at 7:04 PM on December 29, 2016
Agreed, but would tiva be allowed/be able find a venue to use their newfound skills+knowledge for the betterment of all?
as opposed to resorting to being employed in weaponizing that kind of experience in order to afford rent and food for them and theirs?
Does Metafilter do scholarship funds?
posted by porpoise at 7:04 PM on December 29, 2016
I just want to put this into the digital record, for any time travellers who come after the-age-of-computer, that if they want to take me back in time I'd be ok with that
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:06 PM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:06 PM on December 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
>I'm thinking about finally taking the grad school plunge to get a degree in public policy with a human rights concentration (plus I just found out I might be eligible for a pretty great scholarship to do it).
>I think that you'd be terrific at this. Seriously, honestly, & sincerely :)
Ditto. Tivalas, I don't know you very well, but in these threads I have been consistently impressed with your political savvy, compassion, and ability to hone in on good ways to direct a discussion. I'd be pleased to see what you did in policy.
posted by sciatrix at 7:07 PM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
>I think that you'd be terrific at this. Seriously, honestly, & sincerely :)
Ditto. Tivalas, I don't know you very well, but in these threads I have been consistently impressed with your political savvy, compassion, and ability to hone in on good ways to direct a discussion. I'd be pleased to see what you did in policy.
posted by sciatrix at 7:07 PM on December 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
"It's a social experiment!" [fake]
That really is the entirety of his bullshit deal.
posted by Artw at 7:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
That really is the entirety of his bullshit deal.
posted by Artw at 7:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm hoping this is the timeline the time travelers wipe out when they come back to fix everything. We'll all wake up one day with a vague memory of the same bad dream.
posted by mochapickle at 7:10 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 7:10 PM on December 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I just want to put this into the digital record, for any time travellers who come after the-age-of-computer, that if they want to take me back in time I'd be ok with that
If cryosleep was available, I almost feel like I would set it for a few days before midterms 2018, crawling inside, and hoping that the world hasn't turned into a mixture between Fallout 4 and It Can't Happen Here when I wake up.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:19 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
If cryosleep was available, I almost feel like I would set it for a few days before midterms 2018, crawling inside, and hoping that the world hasn't turned into a mixture between Fallout 4 and It Can't Happen Here when I wake up.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:19 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
We'll all wake up one day with a vague memory of the same bad dream.
I'd also accept a mind wipe that erases all memories of 2016.
And tiva, do it! I'm hoping to start a grad program in non-profit leadership in the fall. If there was one thing this horrible year taught me, it was to stop being complacent. I've got a decent corporate job that pays the bills, but now, more than ever, I want to spend my time on this planet doing the most good I can. /goes back to knitting the pussyhat to wear at the Women's March
posted by Ruki at 7:20 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'd also accept a mind wipe that erases all memories of 2016.
And tiva, do it! I'm hoping to start a grad program in non-profit leadership in the fall. If there was one thing this horrible year taught me, it was to stop being complacent. I've got a decent corporate job that pays the bills, but now, more than ever, I want to spend my time on this planet doing the most good I can. /goes back to knitting the pussyhat to wear at the Women's March
posted by Ruki at 7:20 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
If cryosleep was available, I almost feel like I would set it for a few days before midterms 2018, crawling inside, and hoping that the world hasn't turned into a mixture between Fallout 4 and It Can't Happen Here when I wake up.
That is an apt metaphor for how we got into this mess, though.
posted by Coventry at 7:22 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
That is an apt metaphor for how we got into this mess, though.
posted by Coventry at 7:22 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
goes back to knitting the pussyhat to wear at the Women's March
This I have to see!
posted by futz at 7:23 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
This I have to see!
posted by futz at 7:23 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump is going to make punk rock great again.
So says Amanda Palmer, while she and Neil Gaiman pop off to Australia for the next five years.
“It’s been a really scary time in America. I don’t know how it’s felt over here [in Australia] for the past few months, but it’s a total shit show over there. Especially if you’re an artist, a woman, a minority, gay – anything but a rich white man – it’s really very scary,” she said.
Or a rich white woman who can get a "distinguished artist" visa to hightail it out of the country.
Also, pussyhat.
posted by Ruki at 7:28 PM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
So says Amanda Palmer, while she and Neil Gaiman pop off to Australia for the next five years.
“It’s been a really scary time in America. I don’t know how it’s felt over here [in Australia] for the past few months, but it’s a total shit show over there. Especially if you’re an artist, a woman, a minority, gay – anything but a rich white man – it’s really very scary,” she said.
Or a rich white woman who can get a "distinguished artist" visa to hightail it out of the country.
Also, pussyhat.
posted by Ruki at 7:28 PM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
goes back to knitting the pussyhat to wear at the Women's March
A pussyhat? I am totally down with learning how to knit just for that.
That really is the entirety of his bullshit deal.
One of the disturbing things about Milo (out of many), is that in my experience he has a significant younger following - there were a few Milo supporters even at my very liberal women's college. I didn't understand his appeal and was disturbed that they took such glee in him bullying people who stood up to him. Almost all of them belonged to the Gamergate/anti-SJW crowd.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:41 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
A pussyhat? I am totally down with learning how to knit just for that.
That really is the entirety of his bullshit deal.
One of the disturbing things about Milo (out of many), is that in my experience he has a significant younger following - there were a few Milo supporters even at my very liberal women's college. I didn't understand his appeal and was disturbed that they took such glee in him bullying people who stood up to him. Almost all of them belonged to the Gamergate/anti-SJW crowd.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:41 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Amanda Palmer is a privileged asshole. I mean... she's not wrong, there will definitely be good art that comes out of this, but, you know, at the expense of peace, safety, the environment, etc etc etc. And I bet she won't be the one making that good art either.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:42 PM on December 29, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:42 PM on December 29, 2016 [26 favorites]
Is there a MeFi icon/sign I can wear at the March? I think it will be too crazy for a meet up, but would like the opportunity to give a head nod
posted by armacy at 7:42 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by armacy at 7:42 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
So says Amanda Palmer, while she and Neil Gaiman pop off to Australia for the next five years.
Jesus Christ does she need to check her privilege.
posted by Talez at 7:42 PM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
“It’s been a really scary time in America. I don’t know how it’s felt over here [in Australia] for the past few months, but it’s a total shit show over there. Especially if you’re an artist, a woman, a minority, gay – anything but a rich white man – it’s really very scary,” she said.Or a rich white woman who can get a "distinguished artist" visa to hightail it out of the country.
Jesus Christ does she need to check her privilege.
posted by Talez at 7:42 PM on December 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
That is genius, Ruki. I want one.
posted by sciatrix at 7:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 7:43 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Does this qualify as a pussyhat?
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't know that Trump has the political cover to roll back sanctions now that Paul Ryan and prominent R's are behind them, but I guess Putin could do something horrible like cut off our Atlas engine supply and Trump could claim he's the O.P. (Original Peacemaker)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:52 PM on December 29, 2016
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:52 PM on December 29, 2016
I'd love to buy one. My hands are too messed up to knit.
posted by futz at 7:52 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by futz at 7:52 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there a MeFi icon/sign I can wear at the March?
Seconding this - I'm happy to give a friendly nod to another MFer if we meet at a protest (I'm trying to make the inauguration on the 20th), and a MF symbol/sign is a good idea as far as recognizing each other goes.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:53 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Seconding this - I'm happy to give a friendly nod to another MFer if we meet at a protest (I'm trying to make the inauguration on the 20th), and a MF symbol/sign is a good idea as far as recognizing each other goes.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:53 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
but I guess Putin could do something horrible like cut off our Atlas engine supply and Trump could claim he's the O.P.
Or they could just refuse to give Shane Kimbrough a lift home. I can just see him there out in space in an EVA with his thumb out waiting for SpaceX to come along.
posted by Talez at 7:55 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or they could just refuse to give Shane Kimbrough a lift home. I can just see him there out in space in an EVA with his thumb out waiting for SpaceX to come along.
posted by Talez at 7:55 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Seconding this - I'm happy to give a friendly nod to another MFer if we meet at a protest
A MFer patch of some sort. A MFer pussyhat patch. Several interpretations there.
posted by futz at 7:59 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
A MFer patch of some sort. A MFer pussyhat patch. Several interpretations there.
posted by futz at 7:59 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Saw that Palmer thing this morning, thought about posting it, decided that the one thing she values most in this world is attention, so thought it would be better to simply ignore her dumbass bullshit. I wonder if she's thought about the outrage machine she could spin up if she played the inauguration.....
posted by Existential Dread at 8:02 PM on December 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 8:02 PM on December 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
hey have had subs run aground several times and struggle to keep even one nuke sub in service at a time.
Oh, hey, my dad worked on some of those subs. And by "worked on" I don't mean "inside." He had something to do with building them. (He was an engineer and I don't know exactly what he was doing behind that giant razorwire fence, but I got to visit the UK!) Umm, hrm.
posted by threeturtles at 8:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, hey, my dad worked on some of those subs. And by "worked on" I don't mean "inside." He had something to do with building them. (He was an engineer and I don't know exactly what he was doing behind that giant razorwire fence, but I got to visit the UK!) Umm, hrm.
posted by threeturtles at 8:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it says something when even a band as notoriously money-hungry as KISS won't play at his inauguration, honestly.
I do feel sorry for the Rockettes, though - it's not their fault at all, and someone somewhere will probably not do the research on the situation and blame them for it.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:12 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do feel sorry for the Rockettes, though - it's not their fault at all, and someone somewhere will probably not do the research on the situation and blame them for it.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:12 PM on December 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Amanda Palmer is a double-dipshit. Not only because she is a privileged white woman spouting privileged white woman dipshittery, but also because only a dipshit would feel cool to flee the country while other less privileged people stay behind to fight on your behalf so that you can return in 4-8 years and talk about how all this great art was made while you were privilegedly dipshitting around Ozzie. I would hashtag Amanda Palmers entire existence #whitenonsense if I was able.
posted by supercrayon at 8:12 PM on December 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 8:12 PM on December 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
I agree that as part of fighting Trumpism we need to unify our side - the Republicans have exploited Democrats' infighting for a long time, and especially this year. Trump is counting on people running away and hiding and blaming each other rather than standing up to him, since that gives him fewer opponents to deal with.
United we stand, divided we fall.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
United we stand, divided we fall.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:26 PM on December 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
I think we've taken this derail far enough off the railroad bridge...
The Palmer article did have a link to this other interesting article, though.
The Palmer article did have a link to this other interesting article, though.
Bob Hawke blames decline in quality of politicians on intrusiveness of mediaposted by Coventry at 8:28 PM on December 29, 2016
Bob Hawke has blamed “the increasing intrusiveness of the media into private lives of politicians” for what he sees as a decline in quality of MPs and leaders in Australia and abroad.
In a wide-ranging address at the Woodford Folk festival in Queensland, where the 87-year-old has spoken for eight years in a row, the former prime minister said “poor quality of representatives … is not a purely Australian phenomenon – it’s a worldwide phenomenon”.
Hawke said the world was living through a unique period where it was the first time since the end of the second world war that there hadn’t been “an outstanding political leader … anywhere in the democratic world”.
Or they could just refuse to give Shane Kimbrough a lift home.
I know this was probably dark humor [insert bile/spleen joke here] but if they actually did this would there be any plausible alternative?
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:34 PM on December 29, 2016
I know this was probably dark humor [insert bile/spleen joke here] but if they actually did this would there be any plausible alternative?
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:34 PM on December 29, 2016
David Frum on Trump and the Russian hacking:
posted by peeedro at 8:37 PM on December 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
Without Trump’s own willingness to make false claims and misuse Russian-provided information, the Wikileaks material would have deflated of its own boringness. The Russian-hacked material did damage because, and only because, Russia found a willing accomplice in the person of Donald J. Trump.Because I am feeling super-cynical, that puts us in the same territory as the tax returns where the whole truth is probably much worse than what we already know. At some point Trump is just going give us another "That makes me smart" moment and half the country won't care, half will say surely this, and the media will move on in a couple of days to the next controversial tweetstorm.
Many questions remain about how the Russian spy services did what they did. That includes Putin’s motives for ordering the operation. But on issues from Crimea to Syria to NATO to the breakup of the European Union, Trump’s publicly expressed views align with Putin’s wishes.
Over Trump’s motives for collaborating so full-throatedly with Russian espionage, there hangs a greater and more disturbing mystery—a mystery that Trump seems in no hurry to dispel. And maybe he is wise to leave the mystery in place: as delegitimizing as it is, it’s very possible the truth would be even worse.
posted by peeedro at 8:37 PM on December 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
Also, in that Amanda Palmer interview - her take on the Weimar Republic is completely wrong. She's all "It's just like Weimar, so oppressive, that makes great art", but the Weimar Republic was a time of radical, sweeping reform - lots of instability and bad stuff, yes, but also vast improvements wrought by legislation in women's rights, workers' rights, disability, etc. Pretty much as soon as the Weimar government was in office, it was all bam, labor reform, bam food and social safety net provision. The backlash against this stuff was considerable, yes, and the various Weimar-era coalitions left something to be desired, but whatever caused Weimar to be artistically interesting, it was not a sudden increase in oppression of the common people.
There wasn't a lot of great art under Hitler.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [52 favorites]
There wasn't a lot of great art under Hitler.
posted by Frowner at 8:38 PM on December 29, 2016 [52 favorites]
Hitler killed a lot of artists.
posted by maxsparber at 8:39 PM on December 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 8:39 PM on December 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Also, honestly, I thought we had quite good art under Obama. This whole "we lost our edge due to easy living" narrative people are trotting out in re Trump seems both to assume that everyone has been doing great these past 20 years and that no exciting music has been produced, which is a silly thing to say.
posted by Frowner at 8:44 PM on December 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:44 PM on December 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
I watched the Kennedy Center Honors broadcast on tv the other night, which was delightful (particularly the tributes to Mavis Staples and Martha Argerich) and was just totally depressed trying to envision Trump at this in the future. Like, is it going to be Ted Nugent, Scott Baio, and whatever supermodel he's currently drooling over?
posted by TwoStride at 8:49 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:49 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
There wasn't a lot of great art under Hitler.
A lot of famous artists under the Nazis were forced to flee the country or be killed. The ones who weren't killed - Bertolt Brecht, Max Ernst, and Fritz Lang, among others - would be the first to say they had much bigger concerns at that time than producing great art.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:53 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
A lot of famous artists under the Nazis were forced to flee the country or be killed. The ones who weren't killed - Bertolt Brecht, Max Ernst, and Fritz Lang, among others - would be the first to say they had much bigger concerns at that time than producing great art.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:53 PM on December 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
One thing that all this "it's just like Weimar" talk has made me realize: a lot of people don't really have a strong sense of the history of the Weimar Republic. One could plausibly say that it's just like the fall of the Weimar Republic, or one might say that the Obama years had certain similarities with the Weimar Republic (reforms and backlash, treachery narrative, polarization, economic instability; judiciary and political parties that were not purged of the sentiments of the Wilhelm era and worked to undercut reforms) but I don't feel like the WR particularly reflects the present moment.
Mainly, I think the thing about the Weimar Republic that is so instructive is how ill-prepared many leftish people were for how fast everyone else rolled over for Hitler.
posted by Frowner at 9:00 PM on December 29, 2016 [31 favorites]
Mainly, I think the thing about the Weimar Republic that is so instructive is how ill-prepared many leftish people were for how fast everyone else rolled over for Hitler.
posted by Frowner at 9:00 PM on December 29, 2016 [31 favorites]
Even the "punk revival" analogy fails, because punk happened in an era of squats, cheap legal rent and unemployment benefits you could live on. (And healthcare, more or less; certainly so in the UK.)
Bob Hawke has blamed “the increasing intrusiveness of the media into private lives of politicians” for what he sees as a decline in quality of MPs and leaders in Australia and abroad.
Bob Hawke was in the original Guinness Book of Records for his drinking prowess as a Rhodes Scholar. I think there are a lot of mediocre, homogeneous politicians, but that clearly doesn't carry over to the top of the tree in the US, and I think he's harsh on Obama.
posted by holgate at 9:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Bob Hawke has blamed “the increasing intrusiveness of the media into private lives of politicians” for what he sees as a decline in quality of MPs and leaders in Australia and abroad.
Bob Hawke was in the original Guinness Book of Records for his drinking prowess as a Rhodes Scholar. I think there are a lot of mediocre, homogeneous politicians, but that clearly doesn't carry over to the top of the tree in the US, and I think he's harsh on Obama.
posted by holgate at 9:08 PM on December 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
bad poetry
It's bad Jim Morrison poetry.
posted by thelonius at 9:10 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's bad Jim Morrison poetry.
posted by thelonius at 9:10 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know we're still in the coping stages but at some point we're going to have to stop hoping to find answers in bloggy invocations of Gibbon, Tuchman or Shirer, etc (all the usual suspects of 'we have been here before'), and deal with the actual current facts on the ground.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:10 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:10 PM on December 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Barack Obama Needs to Lead the Resistance to Trump
Barack Obama could be our John Quincy Adams. Obama himself has hinted at a more active role in politics than past presidents. Even before the election, he and former Attorney General Eric Holder declared they would dedicate themselves to fixing gerrymandering through creating the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. Such a direct intrusion into American politics already would make Obama unusual. But he can go farther. In a Democratic Party without a clear leader, Obama is the only figure that can gather the respect of both liberals and moderates. He won the votes of working-class whites in Rust Belt states and motivated intense African-American and youth involvement in politics. Compared to Trump, Obama is a paragon of morality, of seriousness, of leadership. We need Barack Obama to take on the burden political leadership to inspire liberals in these perilous times.posted by tonycpsu at 9:33 PM on December 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
Also, regarding the Russian expulsion, one of the NYT articles on it quotes an analyst saying he expects Russia to expel an equal number of Americans in the coming days. In addition to that, I worry that several Russian nationals known to be working for the CIA etc. will meet fatal "accidents" in the coming days.
posted by Candleman at 9:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 9:51 PM on December 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
What's the Mefite hive mind opinion on Dave Emory's anti-fascism show/blog? Excluding various accessibility issues, I mean.
posted by christopherious at 10:11 PM on December 29, 2016
posted by christopherious at 10:11 PM on December 29, 2016
What do you like about it, christopherious? The first four minutes of the FTR #902 podcast linked from the front page are sort of interesting. Do you know where he discusses his theory of the Kennedy assassination in more detail?
posted by Coventry at 10:52 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 10:52 PM on December 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Marcy Wheeler: Sanctioning GRU … and FSB
The sanctioning materials offers only this explanation for the FSB sanction: “The Federal Security Service (a.k.a. Federalnaya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti) (a.k.a FSB) assisted the GRU in conducting the activities described above.”posted by tonycpsu at 11:18 PM on December 29, 2016
So I’m not sure what to make of the fact that FSB was sanctioned along with GRU. Perhaps it means there was some kind of serial hack, with FSB identifying an opportunity that GRU then implemented — the more extensive coordination that FireEye claims. Perhaps it means the US has decided it’s going to start sanctioning garden variety information collection of the type the US does.
But I do find it an interesting aspect of the sanctions.
I was pretty confused by this at first, "sanction" being one of those words that's its own antonym.
posted by NMcCoy at 12:06 AM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by NMcCoy at 12:06 AM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
China Warmly Welcomes a Giant Rooster With Trumpian Characteristics (pic inside)
posted by zachlipton at 1:31 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 1:31 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is what I am hoping for:
A National Strike Day.
Plan it for I don't know six months from now. Have the movement led by experienced civil disobedience folks --Act Up? and delegate it into statewide movements.
Object to let's say, ten things Trump has done since his election or people he has nominated.
And after those ten things, keep adding to the fucking list. Executive Order whatever that resulted in whatever. Call these things unacceptable.
Organize boycotts of whatever employers retaliate.
Then have more strikes. And more. And more.
posted by angrycat at 1:48 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
A National Strike Day.
Plan it for I don't know six months from now. Have the movement led by experienced civil disobedience folks --Act Up? and delegate it into statewide movements.
Object to let's say, ten things Trump has done since his election or people he has nominated.
And after those ten things, keep adding to the fucking list. Executive Order whatever that resulted in whatever. Call these things unacceptable.
Organize boycotts of whatever employers retaliate.
Then have more strikes. And more. And more.
posted by angrycat at 1:48 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Would've been good to do that on December 19, when the Electoral College voted. Or January 6, when the votes get read into the congressional record. Or on January 20, inauguration day.
If anybody knew the magic to turn words of fear, fret and worry into action, they could launch a revolution from this thread alone. Alas.
posted by perspicio at 2:56 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
If anybody knew the magic to turn words of fear, fret and worry into action, they could launch a revolution from this thread alone. Alas.
posted by perspicio at 2:56 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
His word salads are carefully constructed to create an impression, often several very different impressions at the same time for different recipients.
And I really, really don't like painting with this broad a brush, but as somebody here said recently, Trump is what a smart person sounds like to a dumb person. Whereas for most of us word salad is a ridiculous way to communicate, it seems like so many Trump "recipients" actually hear in word salad (making Twitter a superb way to communicate with them).
I'm not buying "carefully constructed" at all and as for his audience hearing in word salad, that's undoubtedly somewhat true, but it needn't be due to their cognitive functions being all that different, it's just that Trump doesn't know what he's talking about in any detail whatsoever, and his audiences don't either, so it's all reduced to signifying phrases; Build a wall, crooked Hillary/Lock her up, MAGA. and on an on. There's nothing really mysterious about this at all. People here often say similar things about posts like EVE online or specialized computer or systems admin talks. Some of the words and general ideas are easy enough to parse, but without additional study, the ensuing dialogue can sound like gobbledy-gook to the uninitiated.
Talking in depth about government programs or reforms or any element of policy and procedure is going to lose a yuge chunk of the audience on the ideas or discussion alone because they have no idea about what's involved. Those members of the electorate vote largely on feel or trust and single issues they believe they are informed in, like guns and abortion. Nothing mysterious or special at all about Trump's speaking style other than he is shameless in flaunting his lack of knowledge as an ability. He succeeds where others might fail because he has no moral or intellectual qualms about his statements and doesn't seem to even be aware he should. He believes in himself and his celebrity.
And that is where i somewhat agree with the idea that there may be less good politicians due to the accompanying constant exposure that comes with that kind of celebrity. It isn't something just anyone can deal with, and those who can often share traits with people like Trump in their belief in their own self-importance, for example. I think we'd all be better off with less attention to celebrity, even here on Metafilter the references and idolatry can be pretty overbearing sometimes, though certainly no more here than most other large communal spaces.
Amanda Palmer saying anything has no intrinsic value other than her celebrity and the accompanying assumption some will listen to her just because of that. She certainly has no special insight into politics, nor does her husband. They are best left to discussions about their own niches of popularity or talent, bringing them added attention just makes it more likely they'll try and use it beyond their abilities, like Trump. I don't want to go further off on this tangent since it's clear people somehow do care about fame and celebrity in many ways I might find disagreeable or potentially harmful, but since it came up and seems so directly connected to how the US ended up with President Elect Trump, I had to mention it.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [24 favorites]
And I really, really don't like painting with this broad a brush, but as somebody here said recently, Trump is what a smart person sounds like to a dumb person. Whereas for most of us word salad is a ridiculous way to communicate, it seems like so many Trump "recipients" actually hear in word salad (making Twitter a superb way to communicate with them).
I'm not buying "carefully constructed" at all and as for his audience hearing in word salad, that's undoubtedly somewhat true, but it needn't be due to their cognitive functions being all that different, it's just that Trump doesn't know what he's talking about in any detail whatsoever, and his audiences don't either, so it's all reduced to signifying phrases; Build a wall, crooked Hillary/Lock her up, MAGA. and on an on. There's nothing really mysterious about this at all. People here often say similar things about posts like EVE online or specialized computer or systems admin talks. Some of the words and general ideas are easy enough to parse, but without additional study, the ensuing dialogue can sound like gobbledy-gook to the uninitiated.
Talking in depth about government programs or reforms or any element of policy and procedure is going to lose a yuge chunk of the audience on the ideas or discussion alone because they have no idea about what's involved. Those members of the electorate vote largely on feel or trust and single issues they believe they are informed in, like guns and abortion. Nothing mysterious or special at all about Trump's speaking style other than he is shameless in flaunting his lack of knowledge as an ability. He succeeds where others might fail because he has no moral or intellectual qualms about his statements and doesn't seem to even be aware he should. He believes in himself and his celebrity.
And that is where i somewhat agree with the idea that there may be less good politicians due to the accompanying constant exposure that comes with that kind of celebrity. It isn't something just anyone can deal with, and those who can often share traits with people like Trump in their belief in their own self-importance, for example. I think we'd all be better off with less attention to celebrity, even here on Metafilter the references and idolatry can be pretty overbearing sometimes, though certainly no more here than most other large communal spaces.
Amanda Palmer saying anything has no intrinsic value other than her celebrity and the accompanying assumption some will listen to her just because of that. She certainly has no special insight into politics, nor does her husband. They are best left to discussions about their own niches of popularity or talent, bringing them added attention just makes it more likely they'll try and use it beyond their abilities, like Trump. I don't want to go further off on this tangent since it's clear people somehow do care about fame and celebrity in many ways I might find disagreeable or potentially harmful, but since it came up and seems so directly connected to how the US ended up with President Elect Trump, I had to mention it.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [24 favorites]
Re: Pussyhats
I've already knit four. I had some interest from someone from a local group who is going to the march for them but I may or may not connect back with them. If anyone going to the march wants a hat, I have time to knit more, especially if you're willing to chip in a few bucks for yarn.
Re: Strikes There was a women's strike planned for December 12th (right before the Electoral College vote) but it didn't get a huge amount of traction. There are the Inaugurations marches, we'll see how that goes. It's not that there aren't people out there planning things, it's really that there is a tipping point of things going viral and people following through that just hasn't quite gotten there.
posted by threeturtles at 4:27 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've already knit four. I had some interest from someone from a local group who is going to the march for them but I may or may not connect back with them. If anyone going to the march wants a hat, I have time to knit more, especially if you're willing to chip in a few bucks for yarn.
Re: Strikes There was a women's strike planned for December 12th (right before the Electoral College vote) but it didn't get a huge amount of traction. There are the Inaugurations marches, we'll see how that goes. It's not that there aren't people out there planning things, it's really that there is a tipping point of things going viral and people following through that just hasn't quite gotten there.
posted by threeturtles at 4:27 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I guess "carefully constructed" may not apply in many specific instances of it, but this is definitely a real and discrete skill. I've worked with sales guys who can do the same thing: after establishing a degree of familiarity and trust, just direct a blizzard of run-on sentences at a prospective customer, yet manage to convey all sorts of specific impressions that you couldn't actually extract as necessarily having been stated if you had a transcript of what was said.
Thus, the sales guy has essentially made promises that secure the purchase but which are completely deniable because the person he was speaking to can't remember any full sentences expressing what they feel like they were promised.
posted by XMLicious at 4:29 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Thus, the sales guy has essentially made promises that secure the purchase but which are completely deniable because the person he was speaking to can't remember any full sentences expressing what they feel like they were promised.
posted by XMLicious at 4:29 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
NPR: Putin says he'll decide Russia's response depending on the actions of President-elect Donald Trump's administration.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thus, the sales guy has essentially made promises that secure the purchase but which are completely deniable because the person he was speaking to can't remember any full sentences expressing what they feel like they were promised.
Spot on.
What are we gonna build? A pall? Sounds right i guess.
posted by petebest at 5:26 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Spot on.
What are we gonna build? A pall? Sounds right i guess.
posted by petebest at 5:26 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thus, the sales guy has essentially made promises that secure the purchase but which are completely deniable because the person he was speaking to can't remember any full sentences expressing what they feel like they were promised.
Sure, a certain level of comfort and no feeling of shame in saying things will allow that sort of bullshit. Any salesperson who is talking without saying anything concrete is pretty much knowingly engaging in an attempt to persuade based on who they are rather than the thing being sold, which is clearly also an attempt to deceive on some level, even if they believe the thing they are selling has some value. It's obfuscation using patter to sell instead of actual or verifiable information. It may work and the customer may even be satisfied with the product, but the pitch is not what it appears to be, and thus deceives. This isn't an extraordinary skill, more a moral or ethical societal failing converted into use for personal gain.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:29 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sure, a certain level of comfort and no feeling of shame in saying things will allow that sort of bullshit. Any salesperson who is talking without saying anything concrete is pretty much knowingly engaging in an attempt to persuade based on who they are rather than the thing being sold, which is clearly also an attempt to deceive on some level, even if they believe the thing they are selling has some value. It's obfuscation using patter to sell instead of actual or verifiable information. It may work and the customer may even be satisfied with the product, but the pitch is not what it appears to be, and thus deceives. This isn't an extraordinary skill, more a moral or ethical societal failing converted into use for personal gain.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:29 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
And exquisitely timed, wouldn't you say? Who'd have thought Summer of a key election year is when social media platforms would reach critical mass among the racist uncles and fearmongerng homeschoolers?
posted by petebest at 5:43 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by petebest at 5:43 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Some of that was luck, Trump's been mooting a run for a long time, and some was surely due to the concerted efforts of those who saw a map for their own dreams of power. Kushner and Bannon chief among them.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:48 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 5:48 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
As I see it, a significant part of the country is already anti Trump and even pro Democrat. Remember, if you look at the map by counties and even by proportions, we aren't a red nation with blue coasts. We are a purple nation. And you never know where you'll find an ally if you listen, drum up the emotional reminders to step up and find enthusiasm, and point out where the morality of history lies.
If you have working class white folks who are scared of fat cat government... Hm. Do you know if any of them have heard of Utah Phillips? Several of his live album recordings have bits at the beginning that might appeal to a lot of folks who are motivated by ignorance and fear rather than outright hatred.
And you don't get too much more democratic than a goddamn Wobbly. But it's been long enough that I figure, well... He's an old white dude who had ideas about how to make America great. It's worth a shot.
posted by sciatrix at 9:01 AM on December 24
[11 favorites −] Favorite added! [Flagged]
This is a valid suggestion! I met Utah Phillips before he passed he played a small concert in Yakima. I've shook his hand. He was a very real person who loved and understood working class people. I will be sharing his work.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:09 AM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you have working class white folks who are scared of fat cat government... Hm. Do you know if any of them have heard of Utah Phillips? Several of his live album recordings have bits at the beginning that might appeal to a lot of folks who are motivated by ignorance and fear rather than outright hatred.
And you don't get too much more democratic than a goddamn Wobbly. But it's been long enough that I figure, well... He's an old white dude who had ideas about how to make America great. It's worth a shot.
posted by sciatrix at 9:01 AM on December 24
[11 favorites −] Favorite added! [Flagged]
This is a valid suggestion! I met Utah Phillips before he passed he played a small concert in Yakima. I've shook his hand. He was a very real person who loved and understood working class people. I will be sharing his work.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:09 AM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yet another update on the Montana Nazi Situation: behold Richard Spencer's sniveling backpedal.
According to Spencer, there will be no neo-Nazi march and "the politicians shouldn’t take it so seriously.”
"It’s a troll to trigger people," he added. "It’s one site making jokes."
The issue has kept Whitefish in the national spotlight for several weeks.
“I just want it all to stop,” Spencer said. “I’m kind of tired of this.”
You and me both, Dick.
There's a Facebook page for a counter-event organized by local human rights groups with 300 going so far. As far as I can tell the current number of verified attendees for the Nazi march still stands at 0.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:39 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
According to Spencer, there will be no neo-Nazi march and "the politicians shouldn’t take it so seriously.”
"It’s a troll to trigger people," he added. "It’s one site making jokes."
The issue has kept Whitefish in the national spotlight for several weeks.
“I just want it all to stop,” Spencer said. “I’m kind of tired of this.”
You and me both, Dick.
There's a Facebook page for a counter-event organized by local human rights groups with 300 going so far. As far as I can tell the current number of verified attendees for the Nazi march still stands at 0.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:39 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Singer resigns from Mormon Tabernacle Choir, says she ‘could never look myself in the mirror again’ if she performed for Trump : "Since 'the announcement,' I have spent several sleepless nights and days in turmoil and agony. I have reflected carefully on both sides of the issue, prayed a lot, talked with family and friends, and searched my soul," Jan Chamberlin wrote in a resignation letter to the choir president and choir members. "I've tried to tell myself that by not going to the inauguration, that I would be able to stay in choir for all the other good reasons. I've tried to tell myself that it will be all right and that I can continue in good conscience before God and man."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:00 AM on December 30, 2016 [64 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:00 AM on December 30, 2016 [64 favorites]
It may work and the customer may even be satisfied with the product, but the pitch is not what it appears to be, and thus deceives. This isn't an extraordinary skill, more a moral or ethical societal failing converted into use for personal gain.
While the misuse of persuasive techniques is certainly morally and ethically dubious and a danger to society, that doesn't mean their use isn't a skill, just as accurately shooting a firearm or arming an atomic bomb is a skill. You have to practice doing those things to do them successfully consistently.
And persuasion is more than just "talking without saying anything concrete." There are definite patterns to the words which are included to create the desired impression. It takes skill to choose those words and to salt them into a patter so that they are properly received. I think this is one of the few things Donald Trump has actually studied and practiced, and having mastered it that skill has enabled him to float along on the cushion of his inheritance and reputation instead of doing anything useful with the rest of his life.
So yes, persuasion is a skill and Donald Trump is at least a talented amateur if not an expert at it, like the advertisers and propagandists who know they owe their livelihood to the innovation of Edward Bernays. I know a lady who is now a practicing Wiccan who worked in advertising when she was younger. She said that advertising is what taught her that magic is real; using words you can get people to do things that are completely against their own interests. That is the entire purpose of advertising, which she eventually realized made it a fundamentally evil skill, the dark side of a very real and powerful force. And it's basically the only thing Donald Trump knows how to do.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
While the misuse of persuasive techniques is certainly morally and ethically dubious and a danger to society, that doesn't mean their use isn't a skill, just as accurately shooting a firearm or arming an atomic bomb is a skill. You have to practice doing those things to do them successfully consistently.
And persuasion is more than just "talking without saying anything concrete." There are definite patterns to the words which are included to create the desired impression. It takes skill to choose those words and to salt them into a patter so that they are properly received. I think this is one of the few things Donald Trump has actually studied and practiced, and having mastered it that skill has enabled him to float along on the cushion of his inheritance and reputation instead of doing anything useful with the rest of his life.
So yes, persuasion is a skill and Donald Trump is at least a talented amateur if not an expert at it, like the advertisers and propagandists who know they owe their livelihood to the innovation of Edward Bernays. I know a lady who is now a practicing Wiccan who worked in advertising when she was younger. She said that advertising is what taught her that magic is real; using words you can get people to do things that are completely against their own interests. That is the entire purpose of advertising, which she eventually realized made it a fundamentally evil skill, the dark side of a very real and powerful force. And it's basically the only thing Donald Trump knows how to do.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
So yes, persuasion is a skill and Donald Trump is at least a talented amateur if not an expert at it, like the advertisers and propagandists who know they owe their livelihood to the innovation of Edward Bernays. I know a lady who is now a practicing Wiccan who worked in advertising when she was younger. She said that advertising is what taught her that magic is real; using words you can get people to do things that are completely against their own interests. That is the entire purpose of advertising, which she eventually realized made it a fundamentally evil skill, the dark side of a very real and powerful force. And it's basically the only thing Donald Trump knows how to do.
I do think he has these types of skills and in his business life has been able to use them enough to get by and keep himself at a certain level and stay in the game. This coupled with his lack of morals, selfishness and willingness to treat people like scum in order to keep winning has meant that even though he's had a myriad of failures, appears to hold a large amount of debt he's able to keep convincing enough people to do whatever so he can keep on keeping on. In his business world he only has to find and convince a few people for his 'deals'.
Thing is he's really not that good at it. In his business world if he was really good at it he would be a lot better off then he appears to be now both financially and respect wise. In politics if he was really good at it he would have a whole lot bigger group of people persuaded. He would be more popular. He would be more likely to have won the landslide of his imagination. He would also be more popular with a wider group of types of people.
Really he is just good enough for a particular set of people, with a very particular way of looking at the world. Enough people to get him into power, by quirk of electoral systems but not anywhere near a majority.
If he was really skilled and talented at this he wouldn't be so damn easy to see through.
posted by Jalliah at 7:41 AM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
I do think he has these types of skills and in his business life has been able to use them enough to get by and keep himself at a certain level and stay in the game. This coupled with his lack of morals, selfishness and willingness to treat people like scum in order to keep winning has meant that even though he's had a myriad of failures, appears to hold a large amount of debt he's able to keep convincing enough people to do whatever so he can keep on keeping on. In his business world he only has to find and convince a few people for his 'deals'.
Thing is he's really not that good at it. In his business world if he was really good at it he would be a lot better off then he appears to be now both financially and respect wise. In politics if he was really good at it he would have a whole lot bigger group of people persuaded. He would be more popular. He would be more likely to have won the landslide of his imagination. He would also be more popular with a wider group of types of people.
Really he is just good enough for a particular set of people, with a very particular way of looking at the world. Enough people to get him into power, by quirk of electoral systems but not anywhere near a majority.
If he was really skilled and talented at this he wouldn't be so damn easy to see through.
posted by Jalliah at 7:41 AM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Thing is he's really not that good at it.
Oh, I agree with this 1000%. If he hadn't been born on third base he'd be hawking used cars and probably doing a mediocre job of moving them. I'm very serious that it takes a special kind of stupid to go bankrupt with a casino license, particularly before Mississippi led the charge to legalize gambling everywhere. It's not hard to do the math and figure out how much money is available in the finite casino economy and avoid spending more than that. But Trump doesn't think things through.
As I've said several times, I think Trump is the real life embodiment of Stephen Colbert's mock claim that it's better to think with your gut than your brain. He thinks genius is the ability to toss a thing off the top of your head without doing anything hard, like actually thinking about it. And this is why he thinks he is a genius, because he's willing to do that and it's always worked out for him, although it's required him to throw everyone he's ever worked with overboard to stay afloat.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:57 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Oh, I agree with this 1000%. If he hadn't been born on third base he'd be hawking used cars and probably doing a mediocre job of moving them. I'm very serious that it takes a special kind of stupid to go bankrupt with a casino license, particularly before Mississippi led the charge to legalize gambling everywhere. It's not hard to do the math and figure out how much money is available in the finite casino economy and avoid spending more than that. But Trump doesn't think things through.
As I've said several times, I think Trump is the real life embodiment of Stephen Colbert's mock claim that it's better to think with your gut than your brain. He thinks genius is the ability to toss a thing off the top of your head without doing anything hard, like actually thinking about it. And this is why he thinks he is a genius, because he's willing to do that and it's always worked out for him, although it's required him to throw everyone he's ever worked with overboard to stay afloat.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:57 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
She said that advertising is what taught her that magic is real; using words you can get people to do things that are completely against their own interests. That is the entire purpose of advertising,
Nonsense. The entire purpose of advertising is to communicate that services, products or ideas are available to a select audience.
For example, if a hospital advertisies that they have doctors working there who can perform a life-saving surgery, they are not trying to persuade people they should have surgery if they don't need it. They advertise so that if someone needs the surgery they know where to get it. That is not propaganda. All advertising isn't propaganda. They are two different things.
posted by qi at 8:03 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nonsense. The entire purpose of advertising is to communicate that services, products or ideas are available to a select audience.
For example, if a hospital advertisies that they have doctors working there who can perform a life-saving surgery, they are not trying to persuade people they should have surgery if they don't need it. They advertise so that if someone needs the surgery they know where to get it. That is not propaganda. All advertising isn't propaganda. They are two different things.
posted by qi at 8:03 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
A National Strike Day
I don't think a general strike has ever been called coast to coast. I'm not sure it could succeed. But if you're interested in the general strike (illegal under Taft Hartley), you need to look at the only union who gives no fucks about Taft Hartley, the IWW.
posted by corb at 8:10 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think a general strike has ever been called coast to coast. I'm not sure it could succeed. But if you're interested in the general strike (illegal under Taft Hartley), you need to look at the only union who gives no fucks about Taft Hartley, the IWW.
posted by corb at 8:10 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is like one of those Snickers ads
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:11 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:11 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is becoming a derail, but the entire purpose of advertising can't be summed up as succinctly as either "using words you can get people to do things that are completely against their own interests" or "to communicate that services, products or ideas are available to a select audience."
posted by aspersioncast at 8:13 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 8:13 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Guardian: Burst your bubble: five conservative articles to read before 2016 ends
This week’s serve of rightwing views comes as the Trump administration is almost bedded down, and he prepares to assume office. What do we know, and what should be the focus of our fears and our resistance? Do Trump’s military appointments threaten basic constitutional norms? Are we making a mistake by treating him as a world-historical aberration, rather than a pretty standard (if idiosyncratic) Republican populist?
Meanwhile, there’s some fun to be had as people on the right adjust themselves to new realities. The president-elect still faces criticisms from holdouts on the right which are as bitter as any from the left, but some of the #nevertrump crowd are desperately trying to walk back their own warnings from election season.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:15 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
This week’s serve of rightwing views comes as the Trump administration is almost bedded down, and he prepares to assume office. What do we know, and what should be the focus of our fears and our resistance? Do Trump’s military appointments threaten basic constitutional norms? Are we making a mistake by treating him as a world-historical aberration, rather than a pretty standard (if idiosyncratic) Republican populist?
Meanwhile, there’s some fun to be had as people on the right adjust themselves to new realities. The president-elect still faces criticisms from holdouts on the right which are as bitter as any from the left, but some of the #nevertrump crowd are desperately trying to walk back their own warnings from election season.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:15 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Our democracy is weakened by regulatory capture/voter suppression/other racist effects, our conservative party has decided to declare a war on facts rather than just update their platforms, our less-conservative party has been slow to understand the danger or to act, and so a highly corrupt and hostile foreign power's help was just enough to tip the balance and put a third-rate huckster into office.
That's my narrative right now.
posted by emjaybee at 8:16 AM on December 30, 2016 [27 favorites]
That's my narrative right now.
posted by emjaybee at 8:16 AM on December 30, 2016 [27 favorites]
I think all advertising can be understood as propaganda. I can't think of any instance of advertising that isn't propaganda.
On Trump's rhetoric, I think (re-linking, but these threads get huge) this is the best analysis.
posted by byanyothername at 8:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
On Trump's rhetoric, I think (re-linking, but these threads get huge) this is the best analysis.
This is the freedom of bullshit. The liar has to know things in order to falsely present facts that are the opposite of the truth. The bullshitter doesn’t need to know the truth, or even think that he or she knows the truth. According to Frankfurt, this is also why bullshit is more dangerous than lying: the liar operates within the framework of truth and falsehood and therefore accepts the possibility that “there are indeed facts that are in some way determinable or knowable,” as Frankfurt writes. But bullshit glibly rejects the value and even existence of knowable facts. Bullshit is faithless, because it denies the existence of anything constant in which to have faith.He just says things, with no concern for any relationship to truth or falsity. By the time he's finished running his mouth on one thing, he's already burying it in denial or kicking up a fuss over something more trivial but more distracting. It doesn't matter that the denial isn't even plausible; it doesn't matter that the record has him contradicting himself. Nothing matters. He doesn't believe any rules, responsibilities or consequences ever apply to him.
posted by byanyothername at 8:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think all advertising can be understood as propaganda. I can't think of any instance of advertising that isn't propaganda.
You think public safety advertising is propaganda?
posted by qi at 8:32 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
You think public safety advertising is propaganda?
posted by qi at 8:32 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Asked for his opinion of Breitbart News, acclaimed journalist Glenn Greenwald praised the news site’s editorial integrity and said the site was “very impressive in terms of the impact they’ve been able to have.”posted by tonycpsu at 8:41 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
While Greenwald was clear that Breitbart contains content he “sometimes find repellant” and Breitbart writers and articles he’s highly critical of “just on political grounds,” he gave Breitbart News high marks for “giving voice to people who are otherwise excluded.”
What the fuck is Greenwald doing? The man has lost all credibility.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:45 AM on December 30, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 8:45 AM on December 30, 2016 [30 favorites]
A yuge part of the reason I think the ad/propaganda thing is a derail is that the Trump campaign barely ran ads, especially compared to the opponent's campaign. There's an obvious relationship between advertisement and sales pitch, but the . . . technique? people are ascribing to Trump seems to bear only a sort of orthogonal relationship to actual advertising. Like the relationship a car lot salesman's upselling bears to one of those prime time car commercials with long helicopter shots of scenic rural highways.
Smallifying the following since I still think it's a bit of a derail
all advertising can be understood as propaganda. I can't think of any instance of advertising that isn't propaganda.
Sorry to prolong the derail, but there is a reason we have two words for this, and your assertion only works if we interpret propaganda under its loosest possible definition, something like "information distributed to promote a point of view." Can all advertising be understood as propaganda? Sure. I don't see that as particularly helpful.
In terms of an instance of advertising that isn't propaganda in its more commonly-understood sense, there are plenty of ad campaigns designed simply to make people aware of something.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:46 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Smallifying the following since I still think it's a bit of a derail
all advertising can be understood as propaganda. I can't think of any instance of advertising that isn't propaganda.
Sorry to prolong the derail, but there is a reason we have two words for this, and your assertion only works if we interpret propaganda under its loosest possible definition, something like "information distributed to promote a point of view." Can all advertising be understood as propaganda? Sure. I don't see that as particularly helpful.
In terms of an instance of advertising that isn't propaganda in its more commonly-understood sense, there are plenty of ad campaigns designed simply to make people aware of something.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:46 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
What the fuck is Greenwald doing?
Finishing the job he started. You only thought you had the same goals.
posted by Artw at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
Finishing the job he started. You only thought you had the same goals.
posted by Artw at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
So we can call Greenwald a collaborator now, right?
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:49 AM on December 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:49 AM on December 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Finishing the job he started. You only thought you had the same goals.
To be fair, I stopped reading Greenwald when I stopped reading Salon.com, circa 2010 or so. I thought the Snowden stuff was good journalistic work, but now he appears to be a slightly more respectable Assange. Still, strange to find him praising the journalistic integrity of the white nationalist website that gave Milo a platform.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:56 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
To be fair, I stopped reading Greenwald when I stopped reading Salon.com, circa 2010 or so. I thought the Snowden stuff was good journalistic work, but now he appears to be a slightly more respectable Assange. Still, strange to find him praising the journalistic integrity of the white nationalist website that gave Milo a platform.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:56 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also I'd love to see a breakdown of what's happened to Greenwald and his reputation before/since the Snowden shenanigans. Our young Edward seems to have been somewhat credulous regarding Greenwald's reputation and trustworthiness (among many other things), but my impression was that at the time, some of that perception of Greenwald's integrity was shared by others around here.
That seems to have dropped off particularly since the Intercept started, but I'm still unclear as to how much Greenwald himself changed (IMO he was perceptibly emboldened after the launch of Intercept), and how much e.g. his anti-American-hegemony contrarianism finally just started seeming obnoxious in the face of an actual existential threat to the country.
Or something else? Has he just really gotten shittier?
[on preview it looks like a couple comments already addressed some of this]
posted by aspersioncast at 8:58 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
That seems to have dropped off particularly since the Intercept started, but I'm still unclear as to how much Greenwald himself changed (IMO he was perceptibly emboldened after the launch of Intercept), and how much e.g. his anti-American-hegemony contrarianism finally just started seeming obnoxious in the face of an actual existential threat to the country.
Or something else? Has he just really gotten shittier?
[on preview it looks like a couple comments already addressed some of this]
posted by aspersioncast at 8:58 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
While I would SO love a derail on adverganda, the point about "thinking with your gut" reminded me of an article about that very thing: How the Gut's "Second Brain" Influnces Mood and Wellbeing
One of the actually interesting things about ol' gutbrain is, I think, his quirks regarding alcohol and his germaphobe reputation. Maybe that has something to do with whatever base of power he has more than any definable thought patterns (I almost said "philosophy", but, y'know).
posted by petebest at 8:59 AM on December 30, 2016
One of the actually interesting things about ol' gutbrain is, I think, his quirks regarding alcohol and his germaphobe reputation. Maybe that has something to do with whatever base of power he has more than any definable thought patterns (I almost said "philosophy", but, y'know).
posted by petebest at 8:59 AM on December 30, 2016
2016: The Movie (Trailer) "It's the horror movie of the year."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
2016: The Movie (Trailer) "It's the horror movie of the year."
Well done! Although the genre is deplor-aaaaaaAAAAAIIIIIIGGGHH
*fzzt*
posted by petebest at 9:07 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well done! Although the genre is deplor-aaaaaaAAAAAIIIIIIGGGHH
*fzzt*
posted by petebest at 9:07 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
You think public safety advertising is propaganda?
PSAs are the very definition of propaganda. Just because they try to coerce you in a positive direction doesn't make them not coercive.
And that opinion about the purpose of advertising came from someone who worked in the field quite successfully for more than a decade, so I'm inclined to take her word for it.
posted by Bringer Tom at 9:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
PSAs are the very definition of propaganda. Just because they try to coerce you in a positive direction doesn't make them not coercive.
And that opinion about the purpose of advertising came from someone who worked in the field quite successfully for more than a decade, so I'm inclined to take her word for it.
posted by Bringer Tom at 9:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
All I know is, back in the golden years of 2013 I felt like I was the only one giving the Snowden and/or Greenwald business the side-eye. In particular, I felt like I was the only one going "But, Russia...? What's he...? I mean, am I the only one who thinks that's...?"
I was the only one. Then.
I also remember how strangely difficult it was to get a handle on what, exactly, the whistleblowing was about. I mean I'm not saying it wasn't serious, it was just distinctly ODD how many articles I read that were handwringing about... something... but weren't actually saying WHAT it was. All the articles were saying was ZOMG STUFF IS TERRIBLE. And I'd be like, okay, but what's terrible? And I would read the full article and... not... get any answers?
Maybe I was just coming across an unrepresentative sample of articles, it's not like I was doing a systematic literature review or even making any particular effort. And I did eventually find an article a year or two later that had more concrete information about who Snowden is and what he was disclosing.
And now Glenn Greenwald has gone full Russki himself, well, it... shows that I have a worrying tendency to be more right about political matters than I have any right to expect. Which is not good, in light of what I think is going on now.
posted by tel3path at 9:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
I was the only one. Then.
I also remember how strangely difficult it was to get a handle on what, exactly, the whistleblowing was about. I mean I'm not saying it wasn't serious, it was just distinctly ODD how many articles I read that were handwringing about... something... but weren't actually saying WHAT it was. All the articles were saying was ZOMG STUFF IS TERRIBLE. And I'd be like, okay, but what's terrible? And I would read the full article and... not... get any answers?
Maybe I was just coming across an unrepresentative sample of articles, it's not like I was doing a systematic literature review or even making any particular effort. And I did eventually find an article a year or two later that had more concrete information about who Snowden is and what he was disclosing.
And now Glenn Greenwald has gone full Russki himself, well, it... shows that I have a worrying tendency to be more right about political matters than I have any right to expect. Which is not good, in light of what I think is going on now.
posted by tel3path at 9:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
okay just so i understand, is the current party line that greenwald and snowden are commie symps and that an american surveillance state is hunkydory? as a leftie, i would hate to draw any more circular fire than necessary
posted by entropicamericana at 9:26 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 9:26 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, maybe "completely willful and toward a specific purpose" might have been a better way to put it than "carefully constructed." But while I don't think Trump plans every dumb repetition and fragment in his speech and tweeting, I definitely think he's skilled at what he's doing, which is essentially running a shell game with newsy-sounding words.
Not that that means he's a genius—a used car salesman can be good with the "Like the seats? Those are premium, premium, my wife loves 'em, you got a wife? Gotta keep the ladies happy, amirite, what color's she like? Blue, I got a blue minivan just come in yesterday..." without knowing jack shit about how cars work. But he's good at what he does, which is bring the feels about what he's selling.
TL;DR: byanyothername's comment on lying versus bullshit is instructive.
posted by Rykey at 9:27 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not that that means he's a genius—a used car salesman can be good with the "Like the seats? Those are premium, premium, my wife loves 'em, you got a wife? Gotta keep the ladies happy, amirite, what color's she like? Blue, I got a blue minivan just come in yesterday..." without knowing jack shit about how cars work. But he's good at what he does, which is bring the feels about what he's selling.
TL;DR: byanyothername's comment on lying versus bullshit is instructive.
posted by Rykey at 9:27 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well entropicamericana, I think it's not quite so dichotomous as that.
Also Russia is an oligarchy, not a communist state, and as such should definitively be a source of concern to J. Random Lefty, but I digress.
posted by tel3path at 9:30 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also Russia is an oligarchy, not a communist state, and as such should definitively be a source of concern to J. Random Lefty, but I digress.
posted by tel3path at 9:30 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
> okay just so i understand, is the current party line that greenwald and snowden are commie symps and that an american surveillance state is hunkydory?
For what purpose do you connect these two premises? One's opinion of the two individuals should have nothing to do with their views on the merits of the US surveillance apparatus.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:30 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
For what purpose do you connect these two premises? One's opinion of the two individuals should have nothing to do with their views on the merits of the US surveillance apparatus.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:30 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
entropicamericana:
Asked for his opinion of Breitbart News, acclaimed journalist Glenn Greenwald praised the news site’s editorial integrity and said the site was “very impressive in terms of the impact they’ve been able to have.” [...] "he gave Breitbart News high marks for “giving voice to people who are otherwise excluded.”
It's not the circular firing squad to call him a Trump collaborator. Anyone speaking of Breitbart in these terms fits that description.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:32 AM on December 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
Asked for his opinion of Breitbart News, acclaimed journalist Glenn Greenwald praised the news site’s editorial integrity and said the site was “very impressive in terms of the impact they’ve been able to have.” [...] "he gave Breitbart News high marks for “giving voice to people who are otherwise excluded.”
It's not the circular firing squad to call him a Trump collaborator. Anyone speaking of Breitbart in these terms fits that description.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:32 AM on December 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
okay just so i understand, is the current party line that greenwald and snowden are commie symps and that an american surveillance state is hunkydory? as a leftie, i would hate to draw any more circular fire than necessary
No. But neither is saying "obviously, Russian interference in the election is unproven and anyway not a real problem and also Breitbart is pretty okey dokey." Russian interference in the election should be deeply concerning to anyone with an investment in US representative democracy, and the intelligence community (with all the internecine competition and conflicts) is pretty much unified in saying that the Russians interfered with the express purpose of electing Trump. That should concern all of us.
Snowden did a great service to this country, IMO. The current US surveillance state is deeply problematic on a large number of levels. But Greenwald and Assange appear to be operating with the intent of undermining US foreign policy abroad, with the byproduct of deeply impacting vulnerable populations here at home and de facto supporting Putin's goals. I don't know about you, but Putin's foreign policy moves don't appear to be much better than those of the US. So, I think we can criticize the US surveillance state and drone warfare, AND decry the misrepresentations of Greenwald and Assange, the machinations and hacking of Russian, and the deeply troubling future that the Trump administration promises.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:33 AM on December 30, 2016 [31 favorites]
No. But neither is saying "obviously, Russian interference in the election is unproven and anyway not a real problem and also Breitbart is pretty okey dokey." Russian interference in the election should be deeply concerning to anyone with an investment in US representative democracy, and the intelligence community (with all the internecine competition and conflicts) is pretty much unified in saying that the Russians interfered with the express purpose of electing Trump. That should concern all of us.
Snowden did a great service to this country, IMO. The current US surveillance state is deeply problematic on a large number of levels. But Greenwald and Assange appear to be operating with the intent of undermining US foreign policy abroad, with the byproduct of deeply impacting vulnerable populations here at home and de facto supporting Putin's goals. I don't know about you, but Putin's foreign policy moves don't appear to be much better than those of the US. So, I think we can criticize the US surveillance state and drone warfare, AND decry the misrepresentations of Greenwald and Assange, the machinations and hacking of Russian, and the deeply troubling future that the Trump administration promises.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:33 AM on December 30, 2016 [31 favorites]
Wait, wait, how did Snowden get in here? He's not trending praising Breichbart.
He's not, right. Just checking because. 2016.
posted by petebest at 9:34 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
He's not, right. Just checking because. 2016.
posted by petebest at 9:34 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
So The Intercept has been all "how dare you blame Russia?" for months, and now they're publishing a (not terribly useful) document about similar past Russian hacking and how the NSA can track it.
posted by zachlipton at 9:37 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 9:37 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
is the current party line that greenwald and snowden are commie symps
Seriously though WTF is with people talking about Russia like it's a communist state or referring to anti-Russian rhetoric as redbaiting? I've mostly seen Russophilic tankie shitheads on Twitter do it, and it's weird to see it spreading here.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:38 AM on December 30, 2016 [34 favorites]
Seriously though WTF is with people talking about Russia like it's a communist state or referring to anti-Russian rhetoric as redbaiting? I've mostly seen Russophilic tankie shitheads on Twitter do it, and it's weird to see it spreading here.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:38 AM on December 30, 2016 [34 favorites]
commie symps
this ain't about communism, it would be cool to assume a basic level of historical literacy among the folks gathered here, thx
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:38 AM on December 30, 2016 [26 favorites]
this ain't about communism, it would be cool to assume a basic level of historical literacy among the folks gathered here, thx
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:38 AM on December 30, 2016 [26 favorites]
From the Lawyers, Guns, & Money article:
Greenwald explained that Democrats ginned up hostility to Russia entirely for political reasons:posted by Atom Eyes at 9:38 AM on December 30, 2016 [22 favorites]
“One of the really interesting things is, in 2012, when Mitt Romney ran against Barack Obama, the Democrats mocked Romney mercilessly for depicting Russia as the number one geopolitical threat […] And throughout the Obama presidency, he tried accommodating Putin, he didn’t arm anti-Russian factions in Ukraine, he tried cooperating with him in Syria, it was really an election-year political theme that the Democrats manufactured out of whole cloth, that the Russian, that Putin posed some existential threat to the United States, that they’re our enemy […]”
[ . . . ]
Greenwald presents Obama’s chilly relationship with Russia as nothing but an election-year ploy. He omits any mention of the event that changed the tenor of U.S.-Russia relations: the Russian attack on Ukraine. Obama responded to the invasion by imposing sanctions on Russia in 2014. That event, not some election-year need to gin up a foreign bogeyman, is what generated tension between Obama and Putin. For Greenwald to depict the administration’s chilly stance toward Russia as “an election-year political theme that the Democrats manufactured out of whole cloth” is a complete fantasy.
Carlson agreed that there was “only a political motivation” to explain Obama’s criticisms of Russia.
After this point was agreed upon, Greenwald went beyond merely questioning the certainty of the Post’s reporting and denounced “wild, elaborate conspiracy theories.” “To sit here and sort of suggest that Vladimir Putin lurks behind every American problem, to concoct these wild, elaborate conspiracy theories, to try and convince Americans that Russia is this grave threat to the United States … ” he explained, “I think it’s incredibly dangerous.”
Note that, at the beginning of the segment, Greenwald was just asking questions about how solid this reporting really was, and by the end of it, had described the Post’s reporting of a finding shared by the CIA and FBI as “conspiracy theories.”
okay just so i understand, is the current party line that greenwald and snowden are commie symps and that an american surveillance state is hunkydory?
This read can only be done in bad faith.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:42 AM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
This read can only be done in bad faith.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:42 AM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
Assange and Greenwald have legitimate and quite personal grudges against the U.S. government. But they seem to have become burn-it-all-down accelerationists who don't care about harm to innocent bystanders. Perhaps they believe that bystanders are by definition not innocent.
Snowden does not seem to be in this category.
posted by JackFlash at 9:44 AM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
Snowden does not seem to be in this category.
posted by JackFlash at 9:44 AM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
While Greenwald was clear that Breitbart contains content he “sometimes find repellant” and Breitbart writers and articles he’s highly critical of “just on political grounds,” he gave Breitbart News high marks for “giving voice to people who are otherwise excluded.”
Won't someone have a care for the poor, excluded neo-Nazis?
[sarcasm]
posted by puddledork at 9:48 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Won't someone have a care for the poor, excluded neo-Nazis?
[sarcasm]
posted by puddledork at 9:48 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Isn't there a theory that those on the farthest extreme ends of the political spectrum, both left and right, have more in common with each other than they do with the vast bulging middle? One wonders exactly what this coalition of the downtrodden as imagined by Greenwald might look like?
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:55 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:55 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Greenwald, Shaun King, and Matt Taibbi are all going at each other on twitter right now.
Surely, this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:55 AM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Surely, this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:55 AM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Ugh, remember when Twitter was merely the domain of gossip-type reporters, real-estate agents, techbros and other "networking" / "brand management" types?
And now it's become a public kindergarten for actual world leaders and people who have a legitimate public persona to spit mangled half-sentences and snarky memes at each other. Ugh ugh ugh.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:06 AM on December 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
And now it's become a public kindergarten for actual world leaders and people who have a legitimate public persona to spit mangled half-sentences and snarky memes at each other. Ugh ugh ugh.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:06 AM on December 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
I think this Russia business is really difficult to parse. There's a lot going on and I have not seen any analysis that is satisfactory to me. I will say that I am seeing "hard left" types talking up Assad now, which I find really disturbing. Here are some things that seem to me to be true but in tension with each other:
1. Russia is ruled by a particularly unpleasant, misogynist, homophobic oligarchy that kills journalists and commits human rights violations pretty freely. As much as we know anything, we know that - it's not made up.
2. Saying this is not the same as saying that the United States is a wonderful democracy where dissent is free, etc.
3. The US government has its own reasons for making national enemies - we tend only to denounce regimes that are inconvenient to us. Some of these regimes are genuinely bad, whether right or left; some of them are left-leaning and hostile to US financial interests. We have no trouble supporting tyrants and oligarchies when this serves our interests.
4. So just because the US government takes action against a state does not prove anything about the badness of the state. But it also does not preclude the badness of a state.
5. Big, powerful governments can serve as "useful idiot" counterweights to US power, even if those states are pretty terrible. So for instance, the US got a lot of reformist labor and civil rights legislation in part because of the existence of the USSR - the US wanted to be able to assert some moral high ground and also wanted to weaken the attractions of communism for impoverished US workers.
6. This is not the same as saying "Stalin's Russia was great, too bad he couldn't live forever". The counterweight effect is not entirely separate from the state's actions, but mostly. The US could not only say "communism is terrible, look at Stalin; accept your measly wages as the price of freedom"; it actually had to provide some real benefit to workers.
7. Russia is not communist or leftist in any meaningful sense. Russia seems incredibly fucked up, actually; health, gender and economics metrics all bear this out.
8. The fucked-uppedness of Russia does not mean that Russia isn't a counterweight power - the US can't be world hegemon if there are other large, strong states with substantial military and economic power which have different interests. Russia and China do act as checks on US actions.
9. Because Russia is a counterweight power which can stand up to the US, it's not actually surprising that someone might flee there from here. Dissidents from the USSR went to the US; communist and left dissidents (Big Bill Haywood) from the US went to the USSR and some were expelled from here and sent there, even though they were not all communists and/or were deeply skeptical of the USSR (Emma Goldman). This is not surprising.
10. A problem: when someone like Snowden goes to Russia out of necessity, this has the emotional effect of making Russia more attractive to certain people on the left, in spite of the actual facts about Russia.
11. This is only reinforced by the political tendency to take sides. Not only does our political culture encourage everyone to identify with states and parties even if no particular state or party is particularly good, but there's also the fact that in a world of sides, picking a side is one of the few ways to get anything done. Which is why a lot of us voted Democrat*. "Neither Washington nor Moscow" doesn't get a lot of traction, and anarchists all remember Kronstadt - if you don't sign up with a side, both sides hate you.
12. We live in a fascist time. We do! I think people on the left are attracted to Assad and Putin because they are strongmen - the left is never, ever immune to the spirit of the age, even though we always think we are.
13. The US government will absolutely create a Russian spy panic if that is useful at all. This is entirely separate from whether or not there are spies. It's almost like there's Russia-sub-one and Russia-sub-two, and the US is worried about Russia-sub-one for propaganda reasons but the real problem is Russia-sub-two.
13.5. Liberals need to watch out when they find themselves in agreement with official ideology, especially when there's a heavy moral component involved. When the USG starts denouncing other regimes as immoral, keep your hand on your wallet.
13.75. Precisely because "neither Washington nor Moscow" shuts you out of taking any effective action, it's very attractive for people who want to keep their hands clean and/or leave the status quo in place. So it's a double-edged thing. Anarchists - speaking as a really crappy one - are usually pretty ineffective, and there's a potential for quietism in that.
14. There's a part of the left that has always been power worshippers - I have met people who insisted, for instance, that the students at Tiananmen Square were heavily armed and had to be killed because they were a military threat to the state; I've met people who were huge fans of Saddam Hussein. Any government which can stand up to the US has to be championed - not just evaluated fairly, but actively championed.
15. Everyone has their political blind spots and everyone makes compromises about the policies and ideologies they support. It's not that leftists who don't support Russia are always-correct rationalists and leftists who do support Russia are categorically wrong about everything. What's more, I think that dismissing everything that Snowden or Greenwald has to say because they're wrong about Russia is a terrible idea.
16. At the same time, people have got to keep our wits about us. Russia today isn't even as defensible as the USSR, and the USSR wasn't that defensible for the majority of its existence.
17. These are real choices. If nothing else, that's what the Assad/Putin left really gets - supporting Assad and Putin makes sense if your biggest priority is hobbling the United States. The United States is not a moral entity. We do so much bad stuff around the world. We keep so many bad systems in place. It's possible to have a line of thought which says that hobbling the United States is literally the best of a set of bad options. I don't agree with this, but it's not obviously wrong in the way one might think.
18. I think that the most moral choice is still "Neither Washington nor Moscow", but that choice like all the others comes with a price and a lot of intellectual risks, including being pulled into status-quoism/quietism.
19. My point in all of this is that, although there's a lot of dumb thinking on the surface of the whole Russia/Putin thing, the actual questions causing it are real, complicated and pretty unpleasant to deal with.
*It's funny - lots of the left who are stanning for Russia now are engaging in lesser-evilism just like they insulted people who voted Democractic for doing.
posted by Frowner at 10:08 AM on December 30, 2016 [64 favorites]
1. Russia is ruled by a particularly unpleasant, misogynist, homophobic oligarchy that kills journalists and commits human rights violations pretty freely. As much as we know anything, we know that - it's not made up.
2. Saying this is not the same as saying that the United States is a wonderful democracy where dissent is free, etc.
3. The US government has its own reasons for making national enemies - we tend only to denounce regimes that are inconvenient to us. Some of these regimes are genuinely bad, whether right or left; some of them are left-leaning and hostile to US financial interests. We have no trouble supporting tyrants and oligarchies when this serves our interests.
4. So just because the US government takes action against a state does not prove anything about the badness of the state. But it also does not preclude the badness of a state.
5. Big, powerful governments can serve as "useful idiot" counterweights to US power, even if those states are pretty terrible. So for instance, the US got a lot of reformist labor and civil rights legislation in part because of the existence of the USSR - the US wanted to be able to assert some moral high ground and also wanted to weaken the attractions of communism for impoverished US workers.
6. This is not the same as saying "Stalin's Russia was great, too bad he couldn't live forever". The counterweight effect is not entirely separate from the state's actions, but mostly. The US could not only say "communism is terrible, look at Stalin; accept your measly wages as the price of freedom"; it actually had to provide some real benefit to workers.
7. Russia is not communist or leftist in any meaningful sense. Russia seems incredibly fucked up, actually; health, gender and economics metrics all bear this out.
8. The fucked-uppedness of Russia does not mean that Russia isn't a counterweight power - the US can't be world hegemon if there are other large, strong states with substantial military and economic power which have different interests. Russia and China do act as checks on US actions.
9. Because Russia is a counterweight power which can stand up to the US, it's not actually surprising that someone might flee there from here. Dissidents from the USSR went to the US; communist and left dissidents (Big Bill Haywood) from the US went to the USSR and some were expelled from here and sent there, even though they were not all communists and/or were deeply skeptical of the USSR (Emma Goldman). This is not surprising.
10. A problem: when someone like Snowden goes to Russia out of necessity, this has the emotional effect of making Russia more attractive to certain people on the left, in spite of the actual facts about Russia.
11. This is only reinforced by the political tendency to take sides. Not only does our political culture encourage everyone to identify with states and parties even if no particular state or party is particularly good, but there's also the fact that in a world of sides, picking a side is one of the few ways to get anything done. Which is why a lot of us voted Democrat*. "Neither Washington nor Moscow" doesn't get a lot of traction, and anarchists all remember Kronstadt - if you don't sign up with a side, both sides hate you.
12. We live in a fascist time. We do! I think people on the left are attracted to Assad and Putin because they are strongmen - the left is never, ever immune to the spirit of the age, even though we always think we are.
13. The US government will absolutely create a Russian spy panic if that is useful at all. This is entirely separate from whether or not there are spies. It's almost like there's Russia-sub-one and Russia-sub-two, and the US is worried about Russia-sub-one for propaganda reasons but the real problem is Russia-sub-two.
13.5. Liberals need to watch out when they find themselves in agreement with official ideology, especially when there's a heavy moral component involved. When the USG starts denouncing other regimes as immoral, keep your hand on your wallet.
13.75. Precisely because "neither Washington nor Moscow" shuts you out of taking any effective action, it's very attractive for people who want to keep their hands clean and/or leave the status quo in place. So it's a double-edged thing. Anarchists - speaking as a really crappy one - are usually pretty ineffective, and there's a potential for quietism in that.
14. There's a part of the left that has always been power worshippers - I have met people who insisted, for instance, that the students at Tiananmen Square were heavily armed and had to be killed because they were a military threat to the state; I've met people who were huge fans of Saddam Hussein. Any government which can stand up to the US has to be championed - not just evaluated fairly, but actively championed.
15. Everyone has their political blind spots and everyone makes compromises about the policies and ideologies they support. It's not that leftists who don't support Russia are always-correct rationalists and leftists who do support Russia are categorically wrong about everything. What's more, I think that dismissing everything that Snowden or Greenwald has to say because they're wrong about Russia is a terrible idea.
16. At the same time, people have got to keep our wits about us. Russia today isn't even as defensible as the USSR, and the USSR wasn't that defensible for the majority of its existence.
17. These are real choices. If nothing else, that's what the Assad/Putin left really gets - supporting Assad and Putin makes sense if your biggest priority is hobbling the United States. The United States is not a moral entity. We do so much bad stuff around the world. We keep so many bad systems in place. It's possible to have a line of thought which says that hobbling the United States is literally the best of a set of bad options. I don't agree with this, but it's not obviously wrong in the way one might think.
18. I think that the most moral choice is still "Neither Washington nor Moscow", but that choice like all the others comes with a price and a lot of intellectual risks, including being pulled into status-quoism/quietism.
19. My point in all of this is that, although there's a lot of dumb thinking on the surface of the whole Russia/Putin thing, the actual questions causing it are real, complicated and pretty unpleasant to deal with.
*It's funny - lots of the left who are stanning for Russia now are engaging in lesser-evilism just like they insulted people who voted Democractic for doing.
posted by Frowner at 10:08 AM on December 30, 2016 [64 favorites]
given the context of the "commie symps" comment, it seems obvious that it was a sarcastic take and not meant to further the pejorative interpretation. Could probably let it go.
posted by petebest at 10:08 AM on December 30, 2016
posted by petebest at 10:08 AM on December 30, 2016
It's possible to have a line of thought which says that hobbling the United States is literally the best of a set of bad options. I don't agree with this, but it's not obviously wrong in the way one might think.
18. I think that the most moral choice is still "Neither Washington nor Moscow", but that choice like all the others comes with a price and a lot of intellectual risks, including being pulled into status-quoism/quietism.
It's honestly kind of shocking how many self-described "anti-imperialists" give precisely zero shits about any imperial actions or ambitions that aren't American, but given how often that inanity is comorbid with defending the modern Chinese Communist Party or DPRK it shouldn't surprise me as much.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:16 AM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
18. I think that the most moral choice is still "Neither Washington nor Moscow", but that choice like all the others comes with a price and a lot of intellectual risks, including being pulled into status-quoism/quietism.
It's honestly kind of shocking how many self-described "anti-imperialists" give precisely zero shits about any imperial actions or ambitions that aren't American, but given how often that inanity is comorbid with defending the modern Chinese Communist Party or DPRK it shouldn't surprise me as much.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:16 AM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
And now it's become a public kindergarten for actual world leaders and people who have a legitimate public persona to spit mangled half-sentences and snarky memes at each other. Ugh ugh ugh.
My kidding-not kidding take on all of this: Platforms like Twitter and Facebook have brought about the Bullshit Singularity - they're technological means by which bullshit propagates beyond any human ability to even parse it anymore.
Next up: the GOP as a shittier, lower-tech attempt at Roko's Basilisk, coming to us in 2017.
posted by mordax at 10:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
My kidding-not kidding take on all of this: Platforms like Twitter and Facebook have brought about the Bullshit Singularity - they're technological means by which bullshit propagates beyond any human ability to even parse it anymore.
Next up: the GOP as a shittier, lower-tech attempt at Roko's Basilisk, coming to us in 2017.
posted by mordax at 10:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
I'm hoping this is the timeline the time travelers wipe out when they come back to fix everything.
Everybody killsHitlerTrump on their first trip.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:25 AM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Everybody kills
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:25 AM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
17. These are real choices. If nothing else, that's what the Assad/Putin left really gets - supporting Assad and Putin makes sense if your biggest priority is hobbling the United States. The United States is not a moral entity. We do so much bad stuff around the world. We keep so many bad systems in place. It's possible to have a line of thought which says that hobbling the United States is literally the best of a set of bad options. I don't agree with this, but it's not obviously wrong in the way one might think.
I know this is not your way of thinking Frowner, but this is a slap in the face to all civil rights activists of the last 50 to 100 years. We face the very real possibility of losing civil rights gains for what? To soothe the egos of Greenwald and Assange?
posted by maggiemaggie at 10:28 AM on December 30, 2016 [26 favorites]
I know this is not your way of thinking Frowner, but this is a slap in the face to all civil rights activists of the last 50 to 100 years. We face the very real possibility of losing civil rights gains for what? To soothe the egos of Greenwald and Assange?
posted by maggiemaggie at 10:28 AM on December 30, 2016 [26 favorites]
I don't think this has been posted, an analysis of Russian Propaganda in American Media. Good stuff here.
The first outlet that crops up when discussing over-weening Kremlin sympathies is The Nation, which has morphed from a progressive bulwark willing to pressure Wall Street to something else entirely. One of the writers featured most often within The Nation’s skew is Stephen Cohen, an erstwhile expert given to Moscow-friendly write-ups. Cohen’s foibles, his myriad embarrassments, have been covered elsewhere, but it’s worth highlighting just how swiftly his reputation has collapsed. Where he once stood as one of the preeminent Sovietologists of his day, Cohen has imploded into a heap of Putinist apologia.
posted by emjaybee at 10:36 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The first outlet that crops up when discussing over-weening Kremlin sympathies is The Nation, which has morphed from a progressive bulwark willing to pressure Wall Street to something else entirely. One of the writers featured most often within The Nation’s skew is Stephen Cohen, an erstwhile expert given to Moscow-friendly write-ups. Cohen’s foibles, his myriad embarrassments, have been covered elsewhere, but it’s worth highlighting just how swiftly his reputation has collapsed. Where he once stood as one of the preeminent Sovietologists of his day, Cohen has imploded into a heap of Putinist apologia.
posted by emjaybee at 10:36 AM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The solution to push toward for the problem "we do so much bad stuff around the world" is to try, slowly and painfully and with a lot of failures, to get our government to do less bad stuff and more good stuff, not to hobble the government so much that we just let countries like Russia and China do all the bad stuff they want, because we don't get any kind of a say over there. Whether or not you think the US is a net force for good in the world, this is a zero-sum game--us choosing not to play just means more space for everyone else who is playing, and hobbling ourselves doesn't mean everyone else will sit quietly while we're not looking.
posted by zachlipton at 10:36 AM on December 30, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:36 AM on December 30, 2016 [23 favorites]
It's somewhat tangled, but the question of US-Russia relations is distinct from whether large sections of the GOP have enthusiastically decided to go full Putinist. When you have Trent Franks saying the email hacks did the job the press wouldn't do, or the Heritage Foundation shitting out stuff like this tweet, it's telling you that supposed small-government conservatives who've spent eight years on wingnut welfare calling Obama both a tyrant and a weakling cannot wait to have a strongman imposing "small government" on people in the form of tax cuts for the rich, handouts to big business, civil rights violations, medical bankruptcy, and having to work until you drop dead.
posted by holgate at 10:38 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by holgate at 10:38 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Snowden might be becoming a thorn in Putin's side. So there's that.
posted by Ber at 10:43 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ber at 10:43 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
[S]upporting Assad and Putin makes sense if your biggest priority is hobbling the United States. ... It's possible to have a line of thought which says that hobbling the United States is literally the best of a set of bad options....
I think that the most moral choice is still "Neither Washington nor Moscow"....
If you had asked me a year ago whether or not I considered myself a patriotic person, I would have laughed in your face. What's patriotism? If I can give these post-election threads anything, it's that they've driven home to me exactly how patriotic I am.
The US is my home. It's the home of tons and tons of people (leftists -- whatever that means -- and non-leftists alike), and it's a massive political, economic, and military entity that will impact the world, for better or worse. Deciding to 'hobble' the United States is a massive act of privilege, and it's no coincidence that the people who have done it aren't in the country they've deliberately chosen to hobble. (Yes, living in an Ecuadorian embassy is privilege. Chelsea Manning is in prison.) You know that saying about the ballot box, the soap box, and the bullet box? Hobbling American power is like jumping to the bullet box. It's skipping over the part where there was a candidate on the ballot with far better policies and a far more reasonable approach to foreign policy (a candidate who showed every sign of actually listening to the left, rather than just tweeting about it). It's skipping over any honest discussion of their actual agenda (would anyone have signed onto Wikileaks had Assange stated flat-out that his intent was to hobble US power?), and jumping directly to shooting the US in the foot because we're going to be assholes no matter what.
Fuck that shit.
As for "neither Washington nor Moscow," what does that even mean? If you're in the US, you're going to be stuck picking a side. We spent the entire election saying that "both side"-ism is a major problem with press coverage -- are we now to turn around and give equal credit to a foreign totalitarian government?
If you're trying to argue that Greenwald and Assange are people who are operating from their own moral opinions, that's one thing. I suspect that Greenwald, at least, is. (In case we haven't forgotten it, Assange is a rapist.) But so are a bunch of anti-abortion extremists. That doesn't mean we should be giving their opinions any credit, and it doesn't mean we should consider what they believe in any real way.
I'd like you to pause for a second and ask yourself why you consider Assange in particular to be part of "the left" -- and why that should matter even remotely. What values (not concerns: values) do you share, and are those values really ones you prioritize? Because when 'hobbling the US' means denying health care to a huge part of the US population and eliminating reproductive rights and the rights of LGBTQ people, when it means sabotaging our (excellent!) research universities and destroying efforts at climate change, when it means handing control of nuclear weapons to a man who is emotionally unstable -- is a chance of reducing the power of the US (and it's hard to say by what degree, particularly if Pence becomes president relatively rapidly) really worth it?
And even if it is, would you have defended those values openly on November 7th?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 11:04 AM on December 30, 2016 [29 favorites]
I think that the most moral choice is still "Neither Washington nor Moscow"....
If you had asked me a year ago whether or not I considered myself a patriotic person, I would have laughed in your face. What's patriotism? If I can give these post-election threads anything, it's that they've driven home to me exactly how patriotic I am.
The US is my home. It's the home of tons and tons of people (leftists -- whatever that means -- and non-leftists alike), and it's a massive political, economic, and military entity that will impact the world, for better or worse. Deciding to 'hobble' the United States is a massive act of privilege, and it's no coincidence that the people who have done it aren't in the country they've deliberately chosen to hobble. (Yes, living in an Ecuadorian embassy is privilege. Chelsea Manning is in prison.) You know that saying about the ballot box, the soap box, and the bullet box? Hobbling American power is like jumping to the bullet box. It's skipping over the part where there was a candidate on the ballot with far better policies and a far more reasonable approach to foreign policy (a candidate who showed every sign of actually listening to the left, rather than just tweeting about it). It's skipping over any honest discussion of their actual agenda (would anyone have signed onto Wikileaks had Assange stated flat-out that his intent was to hobble US power?), and jumping directly to shooting the US in the foot because we're going to be assholes no matter what.
Fuck that shit.
As for "neither Washington nor Moscow," what does that even mean? If you're in the US, you're going to be stuck picking a side. We spent the entire election saying that "both side"-ism is a major problem with press coverage -- are we now to turn around and give equal credit to a foreign totalitarian government?
If you're trying to argue that Greenwald and Assange are people who are operating from their own moral opinions, that's one thing. I suspect that Greenwald, at least, is. (In case we haven't forgotten it, Assange is a rapist.) But so are a bunch of anti-abortion extremists. That doesn't mean we should be giving their opinions any credit, and it doesn't mean we should consider what they believe in any real way.
I'd like you to pause for a second and ask yourself why you consider Assange in particular to be part of "the left" -- and why that should matter even remotely. What values (not concerns: values) do you share, and are those values really ones you prioritize? Because when 'hobbling the US' means denying health care to a huge part of the US population and eliminating reproductive rights and the rights of LGBTQ people, when it means sabotaging our (excellent!) research universities and destroying efforts at climate change, when it means handing control of nuclear weapons to a man who is emotionally unstable -- is a chance of reducing the power of the US (and it's hard to say by what degree, particularly if Pence becomes president relatively rapidly) really worth it?
And even if it is, would you have defended those values openly on November 7th?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 11:04 AM on December 30, 2016 [29 favorites]
I know this is not your way of thinking Frowner, but this is a slap in the face to all civil rights activists of the last 50 to 100 years. We face the very real possibility of losing civil rights gains for what? To soothe the egos of Greenwald and Assange?
So here is what I think is an incorrect but defensible way of thinking: Add up all the harms that the US does both internally and externally (prison pipeline, supporting or inciting regional conflicts, supporting the murder of indigenous and labor organizers a la Honduras, opposing global human rights/environmental/privacy/etc agreements, being home to horrible abusive corporations, etc etc etc etc etc). Consider that for every civil rights gain in the US, there's a setback intended to drastically weaken it - eg, the prison system growing in the wake of the civil rights movement. Consider that the US has systematically attacked every vulnerable left wing government, starting with very moderate reformists like Allende in Chile and Arbenz in Guatemala and shows every sign of continuing to do this - it's not just that the US opposes red hot communists; the US actively works to depose temperate, moderate reformers with impeccable upper middle class and popular credentials who were elected in free and fair elections.
Put that all together - you could pretty plausibly argue that the US is the biggest roadblock to global improvement. Even moderate progressive improvement. Even though people within the US have made gains relative to fifty years ago.
To me, the most persuasive part of this is the US's persistent, global opposition to moderate left governments which were elected freely and fairly. This says that to me that no matter how much lip service we pay to democracy, we do not believe that people in other countries have the right to elect reform socialists. It is very easy to argue that there will never be real, transformative global progress on inequality if the US is in the saddle.
This is not the same as saying "Russia is awesome". It's just saying that if another government could be a counterweight to the US, it would provide a better range of possibilities for the world. Not because that government itself was so great, but because it would be weaker than the US - either globally or internally or both. It could either be changed from within or would be too weak to be a US-style global hegemon. So basically, more people would be better off.
Also, I add that "the US becomes weaker vis a vis Russia" does not have to translate into "civil rights gains in the US go away" - it's not like Russia is going to invade. You might argue, in fact, that if the US is weaker, it will in the long run be more likely to capitulate on civil rights issues. (Like, the US was weaker in the Cold War because Russia was stronger, so capitulated on reform legislation in the fifties - seventies.)
Basically, you would be saying "globally, most people most of the time want at least some kinds of progressive change, even if they do not all want the same thing and even if some of their views are imperfect". But most people are held back by the state power, and the global political structure is held in place by the underlying power of the US. So you would say "the odds of positive social change, in the US and elsewhere, are better if the US is weaker, and one way for the US to be weaker is for Russia to have more power to influence world events, even if in individual cases we do not agree with the way that Russia influences world events".
I think that, leaving all else aside, this relies way too much on believing that you understand all the aspects of world systems and can predict how they'll act in detail over long periods. To me, it is pretty clear from human history that people don't have that type of knowledge/predictive power, and trying to realpolick from a left standpoint just sends things straight to hell.
But my point is, we often assume that people like pro-Russia leftists are just being stooges/stupid/malign/etc, and I do not think this is the case. I think they're wrong, but I also don't want to fall into the "someone is wrong therefore they are stupid and they do not reason about anything, unlike me" line of thought that is so easy.
posted by Frowner at 11:09 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
So here is what I think is an incorrect but defensible way of thinking: Add up all the harms that the US does both internally and externally (prison pipeline, supporting or inciting regional conflicts, supporting the murder of indigenous and labor organizers a la Honduras, opposing global human rights/environmental/privacy/etc agreements, being home to horrible abusive corporations, etc etc etc etc etc). Consider that for every civil rights gain in the US, there's a setback intended to drastically weaken it - eg, the prison system growing in the wake of the civil rights movement. Consider that the US has systematically attacked every vulnerable left wing government, starting with very moderate reformists like Allende in Chile and Arbenz in Guatemala and shows every sign of continuing to do this - it's not just that the US opposes red hot communists; the US actively works to depose temperate, moderate reformers with impeccable upper middle class and popular credentials who were elected in free and fair elections.
Put that all together - you could pretty plausibly argue that the US is the biggest roadblock to global improvement. Even moderate progressive improvement. Even though people within the US have made gains relative to fifty years ago.
To me, the most persuasive part of this is the US's persistent, global opposition to moderate left governments which were elected freely and fairly. This says that to me that no matter how much lip service we pay to democracy, we do not believe that people in other countries have the right to elect reform socialists. It is very easy to argue that there will never be real, transformative global progress on inequality if the US is in the saddle.
This is not the same as saying "Russia is awesome". It's just saying that if another government could be a counterweight to the US, it would provide a better range of possibilities for the world. Not because that government itself was so great, but because it would be weaker than the US - either globally or internally or both. It could either be changed from within or would be too weak to be a US-style global hegemon. So basically, more people would be better off.
Also, I add that "the US becomes weaker vis a vis Russia" does not have to translate into "civil rights gains in the US go away" - it's not like Russia is going to invade. You might argue, in fact, that if the US is weaker, it will in the long run be more likely to capitulate on civil rights issues. (Like, the US was weaker in the Cold War because Russia was stronger, so capitulated on reform legislation in the fifties - seventies.)
Basically, you would be saying "globally, most people most of the time want at least some kinds of progressive change, even if they do not all want the same thing and even if some of their views are imperfect". But most people are held back by the state power, and the global political structure is held in place by the underlying power of the US. So you would say "the odds of positive social change, in the US and elsewhere, are better if the US is weaker, and one way for the US to be weaker is for Russia to have more power to influence world events, even if in individual cases we do not agree with the way that Russia influences world events".
I think that, leaving all else aside, this relies way too much on believing that you understand all the aspects of world systems and can predict how they'll act in detail over long periods. To me, it is pretty clear from human history that people don't have that type of knowledge/predictive power, and trying to realpolick from a left standpoint just sends things straight to hell.
But my point is, we often assume that people like pro-Russia leftists are just being stooges/stupid/malign/etc, and I do not think this is the case. I think they're wrong, but I also don't want to fall into the "someone is wrong therefore they are stupid and they do not reason about anything, unlike me" line of thought that is so easy.
posted by Frowner at 11:09 AM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
What's that, Interbits? You've got an update on fired _rump advisor to Russia, Carter Page? Well yeah I wanna see it:
Fired Trump Adviser Tells Moscow Audience How Great Exxon CEO Would Be For Russia
“I’m really personally excited about Rex Tillerson,” Page said during his presentation at the Russian government-owned Rossiya Segodnya International Information Agency. “Being awarded the [Russian] Order of Friendship, his [oil drilling] ventures in the Kara Sea and Black Sea, I mean the list goes on and on.”
I'll bet! Ring-a-ding-ding! What's that? You've got Former Trump advisor reportedly sends letter to McCain threatening the U.S. and our military
Former Donald Trump campaign advisor Carter Page has reportedly written a letter to Senator John McCain (R-AZ) in which he appears to threaten the United States and members of the U.S. military on behalf of Russia. This is yet another extremely troubling incident surrounding the incoming administration, and it is absolutely not normal.
The source is RT and nobody's home at McCain's office, but there's supposedly a picture of the letter somewhere
posted by petebest at 11:09 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
Fired Trump Adviser Tells Moscow Audience How Great Exxon CEO Would Be For Russia
“I’m really personally excited about Rex Tillerson,” Page said during his presentation at the Russian government-owned Rossiya Segodnya International Information Agency. “Being awarded the [Russian] Order of Friendship, his [oil drilling] ventures in the Kara Sea and Black Sea, I mean the list goes on and on.”
I'll bet! Ring-a-ding-ding! What's that? You've got Former Trump advisor reportedly sends letter to McCain threatening the U.S. and our military
Former Donald Trump campaign advisor Carter Page has reportedly written a letter to Senator John McCain (R-AZ) in which he appears to threaten the United States and members of the U.S. military on behalf of Russia. This is yet another extremely troubling incident surrounding the incoming administration, and it is absolutely not normal.
The source is RT and nobody's home at McCain's office, but there's supposedly a picture of the letter somewhere
posted by petebest at 11:09 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
Also, I add that "the US becomes weaker vis a vis Russia" does not have to translate into "civil rights gains in the US go away" - it's not like Russia is going to invade.
They do seem to have been very supportive of the alt-right however. They arguably helped Trump win the election.
posted by maggiemaggie at 11:14 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
They do seem to have been very supportive of the alt-right however. They arguably helped Trump win the election.
posted by maggiemaggie at 11:14 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
ET correct quote! As for "neither Washington nor Moscow," what does that even mean? If you're in the US, you're going to be stuck picking a side. We spent the entire election saying that "both side"-ism is a major problem with press coverage -- are we now to turn around and give equal credit to a foreign totalitarian government?
?
"Neither Washington nor Moscow" means precisely what it did for the left during the Cold War - that you're not going to stan for tyrants, whether they're coordinating the bombing of the presidential palace in Chile or sending people to the gulag in Russia. You're going to dissent instead of being pushed to say that murdering union organizers is okay as long as it's Coca Cola doing it with the complicity of Kissinger instead of Beijing doing it with sanctions from Amnesty International.
But as you say, that does mean accepting that there's no state on your side, and that puts you in a really weird relationship to the policy apparatus.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
?
"Neither Washington nor Moscow" means precisely what it did for the left during the Cold War - that you're not going to stan for tyrants, whether they're coordinating the bombing of the presidential palace in Chile or sending people to the gulag in Russia. You're going to dissent instead of being pushed to say that murdering union organizers is okay as long as it's Coca Cola doing it with the complicity of Kissinger instead of Beijing doing it with sanctions from Amnesty International.
But as you say, that does mean accepting that there's no state on your side, and that puts you in a really weird relationship to the policy apparatus.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
Nixon's lawyer accuses Trump of lying
John Dean, who served as White House Counsel to the former president and was directly involved in the Watergate scandal, says he’s troubled by Trump’s lack of knowledge and penchant for lies.
"It is deeply troubling when you realize that the president-elect generally does not know what he is talking about,” Dean tweeted.
“And when he does he lies.”
posted by futz at 11:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [21 favorites]
John Dean, who served as White House Counsel to the former president and was directly involved in the Watergate scandal, says he’s troubled by Trump’s lack of knowledge and penchant for lies.
"It is deeply troubling when you realize that the president-elect generally does not know what he is talking about,” Dean tweeted.
“And when he does he lies.”
posted by futz at 11:17 AM on December 30, 2016 [21 favorites]
Snowden might be becoming a thorn in Putin's side.
Gosh, I bet their quaking in their boots at this genuine and effective threat who totally isn't going to be getting a polonium breakfast the moment hes anything more than slightly irritating.
posted by Artw at 11:20 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Gosh, I bet their quaking in their boots at this genuine and effective threat who totally isn't going to be getting a polonium breakfast the moment hes anything more than slightly irritating.
posted by Artw at 11:20 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
They arguably helped Trump win the election.
It seems we should accept this as a given. Is someone (someone reasonable) arguing it?
posted by petebest at 11:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
It seems we should accept this as a given. Is someone (someone reasonable) arguing it?
posted by petebest at 11:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments removed, maybe think a lot harder about the implications before proceeding with a "well all the X I know are horrible people, so..." observation.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:22 AM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Has Trump ever tweeted the name "Nixon" before? I'm sure there's a way to search, I just don't want to touch it.
That's gonna be one historic tweet.
posted by petebest at 11:24 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's gonna be one historic tweet.
posted by petebest at 11:24 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes. Trump tweeted a letter from Nixon that he covets. The letter says that if trump ever ran for Pres that he would win.
posted by futz at 11:27 AM on December 30, 2016
posted by futz at 11:27 AM on December 30, 2016
Whether or not you think the US is a net force for good in the world, this is a zero-sum game--us choosing not to play just means more space for everyone else who is playing, and hobbling ourselves doesn't mean everyone else will sit quietly while we're not looking.
Yes. The "benign colonialism" narrative is dangerous -- the US and the UK (usually the "good colonial powers" in this narrative) also did very bad things. However, there's bad and worse. British India > Belgian Congo.
I agree with Frowner's point above, though, that we should be very wary when the US starts to stir up popular sentiment against a particular state (sorry, "regime"). I actually think the Obama administration's been pretty judicious in its stance toward Russia, as far as I can see -- it looks like they came in genuinely hoping to build a realistic, professional (and professionally distant, maybe?) relationship but Putin exploited Western weakness to further his own plans.
And as far as I can see, he seems to want what every Russian autocrat has wanted: access to a warm-water port; dominance of what Russia sees as its cultural homeland, Ukraine; strong cultural and political influence over Eastern Europe in general; and respect as a first-tier nation on the world stage. And he's doing a good job of getting those things by obfuscating and destabilizing governments opposed to him until he's able to leverage friendly puppets into power.
To go further, though, he needs to break up NATO, which he sees (not entirely wrongly) as an encircling force. I suspect that's his end game, and he's much more likely to get it now that the world post-Brexit and post-Obama is much more unstable. (If I were in the Estonian government, I'd be shitting myself continuously at this point.)
Frowner: To me, the most persuasive part of this [the pro-Russia hard left's argument] is the US's persistent, global opposition to moderate left governments which were elected freely and fairly. This says that to me that no matter how much lip service we pay to democracy, we do not believe that people in other countries have the right to elect reform socialists. It is very easy to argue that there will never be real, transformative global progress on inequality if the US is in the saddle.
This is not the same as saying "Russia is awesome". It's just saying that if another government could be a counterweight to the US, it would provide a better range of possibilities for the world. Not because that government itself was so great, but because it would be weaker than the US - either globally or internally or both. It could either be changed from within or would be too weak to be a US-style global hegemon. So basically, more people would be better off.
I see the argument's merits but I don't think Russia (or China for that matter) gaining power at the expense of the US is a net gain. (I know this isn't your argument, Frowner). While it may be true that any hegemon, no matter how well-intentioned, leads to crappy consequences for everyone else, it's also the case that a multi-polar world is less stable and more dangerous unless there's a critical mass of allied nations that are reasonably committed to the advancement of global democracy and human rights.
I'd like to see a world in which the EU, the US and emerging democratic blocs in Latin America, Africa and Asia provide counterweights for each other. Unfortunately, it looks like we're getting a world where the EU is going to be entangled in internal navel-gazing as it negotiates its unhappy divorce from the UK, as Russia pokes and prods; China continues to be China; India seems to be heading down the same illiberal path as everyone else; and of course God only knows what is going to happen in the US.
Um. Well. My original point got lost in a sea of despair, again. 2016.
I was trying to say that I think Obama's done a pretty decent job of being appropriately alarmed without going all-in on anti-Russian propaganda. I will miss him on the world stage, pretty much the only grownup democrat leading a major country anymore is Angela Merkel. And Justin Trudeau, I guess, but he's still pretty wet behind the ears.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:27 AM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yes. The "benign colonialism" narrative is dangerous -- the US and the UK (usually the "good colonial powers" in this narrative) also did very bad things. However, there's bad and worse. British India > Belgian Congo.
I agree with Frowner's point above, though, that we should be very wary when the US starts to stir up popular sentiment against a particular state (sorry, "regime"). I actually think the Obama administration's been pretty judicious in its stance toward Russia, as far as I can see -- it looks like they came in genuinely hoping to build a realistic, professional (and professionally distant, maybe?) relationship but Putin exploited Western weakness to further his own plans.
And as far as I can see, he seems to want what every Russian autocrat has wanted: access to a warm-water port; dominance of what Russia sees as its cultural homeland, Ukraine; strong cultural and political influence over Eastern Europe in general; and respect as a first-tier nation on the world stage. And he's doing a good job of getting those things by obfuscating and destabilizing governments opposed to him until he's able to leverage friendly puppets into power.
To go further, though, he needs to break up NATO, which he sees (not entirely wrongly) as an encircling force. I suspect that's his end game, and he's much more likely to get it now that the world post-Brexit and post-Obama is much more unstable. (If I were in the Estonian government, I'd be shitting myself continuously at this point.)
Frowner: To me, the most persuasive part of this [the pro-Russia hard left's argument] is the US's persistent, global opposition to moderate left governments which were elected freely and fairly. This says that to me that no matter how much lip service we pay to democracy, we do not believe that people in other countries have the right to elect reform socialists. It is very easy to argue that there will never be real, transformative global progress on inequality if the US is in the saddle.
This is not the same as saying "Russia is awesome". It's just saying that if another government could be a counterweight to the US, it would provide a better range of possibilities for the world. Not because that government itself was so great, but because it would be weaker than the US - either globally or internally or both. It could either be changed from within or would be too weak to be a US-style global hegemon. So basically, more people would be better off.
I see the argument's merits but I don't think Russia (or China for that matter) gaining power at the expense of the US is a net gain. (I know this isn't your argument, Frowner). While it may be true that any hegemon, no matter how well-intentioned, leads to crappy consequences for everyone else, it's also the case that a multi-polar world is less stable and more dangerous unless there's a critical mass of allied nations that are reasonably committed to the advancement of global democracy and human rights.
I'd like to see a world in which the EU, the US and emerging democratic blocs in Latin America, Africa and Asia provide counterweights for each other. Unfortunately, it looks like we're getting a world where the EU is going to be entangled in internal navel-gazing as it negotiates its unhappy divorce from the UK, as Russia pokes and prods; China continues to be China; India seems to be heading down the same illiberal path as everyone else; and of course God only knows what is going to happen in the US.
Um. Well. My original point got lost in a sea of despair, again. 2016.
I was trying to say that I think Obama's done a pretty decent job of being appropriately alarmed without going all-in on anti-Russian propaganda. I will miss him on the world stage, pretty much the only grownup democrat leading a major country anymore is Angela Merkel. And Justin Trudeau, I guess, but he's still pretty wet behind the ears.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:27 AM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Has Trump ever tweeted the name "Nixon" before?
@realDonaldTrump (10:34 AM - 11 Jul 2012): How can @BarackObama invoke Richard Nixon against @MittRomney when Obama just used Executive Privilege on Fast & Furious?!posted by mazola at 11:30 AM on December 30, 2016
As was noted back in September, if Carter Page isn't an asset, he does a great job of acting like one. Or maybe he's so cunning that he just wants us to think he's an asset, right down to having a name that would fit in an airport spy novel.
posted by holgate at 11:30 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by holgate at 11:30 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump tweeted a letter from Nixon that he covets.
That was tweeted to Trump by the National Archives Foundation.
posted by peeedro at 11:33 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
That was tweeted to Trump by the National Archives Foundation.
posted by peeedro at 11:33 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perhaps the RUSSIA YAY piece of this is going to be where we can apply pressure to the Trump-inclined (not the hardcores, but those that are reachable). I mean, yes, we have seen that tribal enthusiasm for whoever runs as a Republican is impervious to lack of policy and lack of competence by a candidate. We have seen that a remarkable number (but not yet all) of conservative politicians and pundits have decided that if Trump likes Russia they do too.
But will it go as far for your average conservative as embracing the idea that Russia should have a say in our government/how we run our country? If you love authoritarians, they certainly deliver, but when it comes to being "like us," (the white people definition) well, they're...not. In geography, language and history, we are very far apart. Can tribalism stretch that far, for four years? Or will people get uncomfortable watching Trump and Putin be close buddies? Will pro-Russia propaganda (which I am sure we will see) work with people who have been taught since the cradle to fear the USSR/Russia?
You've got a very recent history of them being The Baddies, featured in multiple red-blooded he-man movies like Rocky and Red Dawn and almost every 80s action flick as villainous and shifty. And then more recent movies/TV shows where they are traffickers and mafia types. And spies, too of course. And the entire 1950s.
I mean that I don't know, it's not the sort of question I ever thought I'd be asking.
posted by emjaybee at 11:35 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
But will it go as far for your average conservative as embracing the idea that Russia should have a say in our government/how we run our country? If you love authoritarians, they certainly deliver, but when it comes to being "like us," (the white people definition) well, they're...not. In geography, language and history, we are very far apart. Can tribalism stretch that far, for four years? Or will people get uncomfortable watching Trump and Putin be close buddies? Will pro-Russia propaganda (which I am sure we will see) work with people who have been taught since the cradle to fear the USSR/Russia?
You've got a very recent history of them being The Baddies, featured in multiple red-blooded he-man movies like Rocky and Red Dawn and almost every 80s action flick as villainous and shifty. And then more recent movies/TV shows where they are traffickers and mafia types. And spies, too of course. And the entire 1950s.
I mean that I don't know, it's not the sort of question I ever thought I'd be asking.
posted by emjaybee at 11:35 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The 'Innocent' Explanation of Trump's Behavior
Josh Marshall's take on Trump's behavior around Russia makes sense. Basically, even if Trump isn't actively colluding with Russia, he probably isn't very confident that the same can be said for everybody in his camp.
posted by diogenes at 11:40 AM on December 30, 2016
Josh Marshall's take on Trump's behavior around Russia makes sense. Basically, even if Trump isn't actively colluding with Russia, he probably isn't very confident that the same can be said for everybody in his camp.
posted by diogenes at 11:40 AM on December 30, 2016
Oooooh, "invoke"! So classy. So classy.
Also, what other Secretary of State has been awarded the Russian Order of Friendship?
[spoiler alert!]
None. Until (presumably) _rump. Although per the WasPo Moscow bureau cheif, it's fine.
In other news, wtf, WashPo.
posted by petebest at 11:40 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, what other Secretary of State has been awarded the Russian Order of Friendship?
[spoiler alert!]
None. Until (presumably) _rump. Although per the WasPo Moscow bureau cheif, it's fine.
In other news, wtf, WashPo.
posted by petebest at 11:40 AM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Trump voters coming around to being okay with and/or fond of Russia? Sure, why not? Americans came around on Japan and Germany in a hurry when that mattered to US foreign policy.
posted by notyou at 11:43 AM on December 30, 2016
posted by notyou at 11:43 AM on December 30, 2016
@realDonaldTrump
Great move on delay (by V. Putin) - I always knew he was very smart!
Also for some reason this is his pinned tweet.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:50 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Great move on delay (by V. Putin) - I always knew he was very smart!
Also for some reason this is his pinned tweet.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:50 AM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
No.
posted by Justinian at 11:53 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:53 AM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's possible to have a line of thought which says that hobbling the United States is literally the best of a set of bad options. I don't agree with this, but it's not obviously wrong in the way one might think.
Sure, but to my mind that strain of reasoning is - - as steady state strawberry pointed out - - absurdly privileged in part because it places not supporting anything bad on a moral platform higher than supporting good things. And I think the leftist tendency to do this is a massive part of the reason we are in this mess. It's hard to never do bad things, especially on the level of powerful nations, and it's easy to become discouraged if you see yourself as constantly trying to mitigate failure after failure.
Prioritizing pushing for good things in activism over against bad things is in many ways harder, in part because who agrees what is good? But it gets more immediate things done to effect change, and more importantly... Well, focusing on the negative is ennervating. It's hard to point at victories, even small ones, to energize your base if you are constantly looking for bad things to oppose. But if you are focusing on, say, improving access to civil rights, then you can point at changes in national conversation to remind yourselves that there is a point to the work we do. You can point to the careers of researchers or every funded grant if you're fighting for science. You can view yourselves as imperfect activists struggling towards a better future rather than guardians of rightness watching for any international wrongdoing. And... Well, when I look at the direct reasons that we get civil rights legislation, historically, it tends to be the first group that has more direct hands in the action and the second that is focusing more on initiatives that individuals have less control over.
So to those folks, I gotta say, while I agree with you that blind patriotism is dangerous - - "my country right or wrong" is a foolish phrase indeed - - and that it's our job as liberal Americans to hold the politicians' feet to the fire on foreign policy, I also think that fostering a sense of domestic patriotism in the service of improving civil liberties is a powerful way to effect change on a lasting level. It's important to remember that we need sustainable fuel if we want lasting change in the minds of the people. For most of us, a positive vision of ourselves as people who value freedom and protect our marginalized compatriots, and who act on those values to keep our neighbors safe... Well, for most folks, that image of ourselves is a lot more sustainable and a lot more effective at driving action to keep our neighbors safe than the image of ourselves as a brutal, unethical, and corrupt regime that carries out attacks on nations abroad. The second image often induces some nasty dissonance in people, and one of the contortions they often go through to excuse themselves on moral grounds is by classifying foreign nations as not their problem. It's easier to effect empathy with people if you can lean hard on the ways in which they're in group with the people you want then to empathize with, and like it or not patriotism is a convenient and useful way of doing that if you can remember to broaden citizen status to marginalized Americans. And that is much easier if they aren't then denouncing the whole of the state based on foreign policy.
posted by sciatrix at 11:53 AM on December 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
Sure, but to my mind that strain of reasoning is - - as steady state strawberry pointed out - - absurdly privileged in part because it places not supporting anything bad on a moral platform higher than supporting good things. And I think the leftist tendency to do this is a massive part of the reason we are in this mess. It's hard to never do bad things, especially on the level of powerful nations, and it's easy to become discouraged if you see yourself as constantly trying to mitigate failure after failure.
Prioritizing pushing for good things in activism over against bad things is in many ways harder, in part because who agrees what is good? But it gets more immediate things done to effect change, and more importantly... Well, focusing on the negative is ennervating. It's hard to point at victories, even small ones, to energize your base if you are constantly looking for bad things to oppose. But if you are focusing on, say, improving access to civil rights, then you can point at changes in national conversation to remind yourselves that there is a point to the work we do. You can point to the careers of researchers or every funded grant if you're fighting for science. You can view yourselves as imperfect activists struggling towards a better future rather than guardians of rightness watching for any international wrongdoing. And... Well, when I look at the direct reasons that we get civil rights legislation, historically, it tends to be the first group that has more direct hands in the action and the second that is focusing more on initiatives that individuals have less control over.
So to those folks, I gotta say, while I agree with you that blind patriotism is dangerous - - "my country right or wrong" is a foolish phrase indeed - - and that it's our job as liberal Americans to hold the politicians' feet to the fire on foreign policy, I also think that fostering a sense of domestic patriotism in the service of improving civil liberties is a powerful way to effect change on a lasting level. It's important to remember that we need sustainable fuel if we want lasting change in the minds of the people. For most of us, a positive vision of ourselves as people who value freedom and protect our marginalized compatriots, and who act on those values to keep our neighbors safe... Well, for most folks, that image of ourselves is a lot more sustainable and a lot more effective at driving action to keep our neighbors safe than the image of ourselves as a brutal, unethical, and corrupt regime that carries out attacks on nations abroad. The second image often induces some nasty dissonance in people, and one of the contortions they often go through to excuse themselves on moral grounds is by classifying foreign nations as not their problem. It's easier to effect empathy with people if you can lean hard on the ways in which they're in group with the people you want then to empathize with, and like it or not patriotism is a convenient and useful way of doing that if you can remember to broaden citizen status to marginalized Americans. And that is much easier if they aren't then denouncing the whole of the state based on foreign policy.
posted by sciatrix at 11:53 AM on December 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
> Americans came around on Japan and Germany in a hurry when that mattered to US foreign policy.
Is this a joke? You can't think of any events that may have changed the posture of these two nations toward the United States?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:54 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Is this a joke? You can't think of any events that may have changed the posture of these two nations toward the United States?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:54 AM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Americans came around on Japan and Germany in a hurry when that mattered to US foreign policy.
Former enemies that we destroyed and helped rebuild /= enemy that we could never go to real war with because nukes but that we have been waging cold war/proxy war on for decades. Among other differences.
Like I said, though, I have no idea what your average Trump-isn't-that-bad voter is going to think about all this Russia-cuddling. I don't know where the line is anymore.
posted by emjaybee at 12:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Former enemies that we destroyed and helped rebuild /= enemy that we could never go to real war with because nukes but that we have been waging cold war/proxy war on for decades. Among other differences.
Like I said, though, I have no idea what your average Trump-isn't-that-bad voter is going to think about all this Russia-cuddling. I don't know where the line is anymore.
posted by emjaybee at 12:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sure, the Second World War, and then the Cold War. The question was whether or not Americans, or Trump voters, could change their view of a foreign villain, after steady villianization in media, in a hurry. The shift today won't have WWII vanquishment of the bad Germans and the bad Japanese, nor the emergence of the new Cold War enemy to harmonize the cognitive dissonance, but I'm sure they'll find something.
posted by notyou at 12:05 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by notyou at 12:05 PM on December 30, 2016
I don't understand why Trump doesn't at least pretend to be skeptical of Putin or care about Russian interference. If nothing else, it would at least give his allies on the right some cover. His actions can only be pressuring Republican senators to investigate more deeply. Openly praising Putin just seems so unnecessary and illogical.
posted by diogenes at 12:05 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by diogenes at 12:05 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The flaw in that reasoning is of course the notion that Trump is a logical man.
posted by sciatrix at 12:07 PM on December 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 12:07 PM on December 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
Something About This Russia Story Stinks (Matt Taibbi - Rolling Stone)
Nearly a decade and a half after the Iraq-WMD faceplant, the American press is again asked to co-sign a dubious intelligence assessment.
posted by adamvasco at 12:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nearly a decade and a half after the Iraq-WMD faceplant, the American press is again asked to co-sign a dubious intelligence assessment.
posted by adamvasco at 12:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just when I think I can't be shocked by this whole circus anymore, Trump goes and tweets something like that. And then pins the tweet.
posted by marshmallow peep at 12:09 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by marshmallow peep at 12:09 PM on December 30, 2016
We've crossed into a new territory when Matt Taibbi's take on recent developments is the cautious and measured one.
posted by notyou at 12:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by notyou at 12:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Asked for his opinion of Breitbart News, acclaimed journalist Glenn Greenwald praised the news site’s editorial integrity and said the site was “very impressive in terms of the impact they’ve been able to have.”
While Greenwald was clear that Breitbart contains content he “sometimes find repellant” and Breitbart writers and articles he’s highly critical of “just on political grounds,” he gave Breitbart News high marks for “giving voice to people who are otherwise excluded.”
I, too, trust Breitbart News's framing of Glenn Greenwald's remarks on Breitbart News.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
While Greenwald was clear that Breitbart contains content he “sometimes find repellant” and Breitbart writers and articles he’s highly critical of “just on political grounds,” he gave Breitbart News high marks for “giving voice to people who are otherwise excluded.”
I, too, trust Breitbart News's framing of Glenn Greenwald's remarks on Breitbart News.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is why the analysis "Trump is a liar" is so flawed. He says what he, in his deluded mind, thinks is true. There's this joke that applied to a past 'dumb politician' that seems to apply well here: Washington could not tell a lie. Nixon could not tell the truth. Trump cannot tell the difference.
Also, we 'officially' won the Cold War too, and once stripped down as much as it is, Russia is no longer The Soviet Union. Of course, that was almost 25 years ago and we didn't need to help rebuild Russia like we did Japan and Germany. Or we just didn't bother.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:18 PM on December 30, 2016
Also, we 'officially' won the Cold War too, and once stripped down as much as it is, Russia is no longer The Soviet Union. Of course, that was almost 25 years ago and we didn't need to help rebuild Russia like we did Japan and Germany. Or we just didn't bother.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:18 PM on December 30, 2016
I'm not a big fan of Taibbi's reasoning in that article. He seems to spend more time reading the Intercept than I would like. He even trots out the ambassador to Uzbekistan!
posted by diogenes at 12:19 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 12:19 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nearly a decade and a half after the Iraq-WMD faceplant, the American press is again asked to co-sign a dubious intelligence assessment.
The Iraq-weapons of mass destruction lie was a pretext for war. What purpose would be served by lying about Russian hacking?
The suggestions Taibbi makes are that the Democratic party is deflecting attention from their failures or Obama is trying to delegitimize Trump. The thinnest of sauces. The election is over and the Democrats failed. Trump delegitimizes himself whenever he speaks or tweets. These are not convincing arguments.
posted by qi at 12:20 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
The Iraq-weapons of mass destruction lie was a pretext for war. What purpose would be served by lying about Russian hacking?
The suggestions Taibbi makes are that the Democratic party is deflecting attention from their failures or Obama is trying to delegitimize Trump. The thinnest of sauces. The election is over and the Democrats failed. Trump delegitimizes himself whenever he speaks or tweets. These are not convincing arguments.
posted by qi at 12:20 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Caution is good, but Taibbi overstates the case with respect to the detail provided in the report, and his complaint about half of the report consisting of security tips is asinine, because that's US-CERT's entire reason for existing. It is not iron-clad evidence, but it does supply addition detail that supports the case for Russian attribution.
He's right to say media outlets should be more circumspect with how they characterize the evidence, but he should make that case without insinuating that US-CERT is padding the report or not supplying details. It does have details -- just not the kind of unassailable proof you'd want in a perfect world.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:22 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
He's right to say media outlets should be more circumspect with how they characterize the evidence, but he should make that case without insinuating that US-CERT is padding the report or not supplying details. It does have details -- just not the kind of unassailable proof you'd want in a perfect world.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:22 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there a relationship between Taibbi and Greenwald? They seem to be working from the same playbook (and it's a playbook that I really don't understand).
posted by diogenes at 12:22 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 12:22 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Taibbi is repeating the whole "well there's no proof Russia did it!" thing which was false months ago, while implying that the CIA just happened to make up the Iraqi WMD claims rather than having their arms twisted into it by the criminal Bush administration, so you'll excuse me if I roll my eyes. If it weren't Taibbi, with his history in Russia, I'd wonder about his motivations.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:23 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:23 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Sure, but to my mind that strain of reasoning is - - as steady state strawberry pointed out - - absurdly privileged in part because it places not supporting anything bad on a moral platform higher than supporting good things. And I think the leftist tendency to do this is a massive part of the reason we are in this mess. It's hard to never do bad things, especially on the level of powerful nations, and it's easy to become discouraged if you see yourself as constantly trying to mitigate failure after failure.
No, the point would be - if you took this line of reasoning - that a hobbled US would actively produce less bad than a non-hobbled US, so therefore hobbling the US is supporting the better thing. It would be better for the US to become less powerful, less successful, less of a global hegemon - that's the good thing that one supports.
It's the opposite of "not supporting bad things" - it's lesser-evilism at a very high level, since one would be arguing that it's better to support a multi-polar world even if many of the poles are awful governments than to support a US-dominated world. A world where it's Russia/China/US/etc wouldn't be great, one would argue, but it would be less bad than a US-dominated world.
I do not think this is as obviously untrue a thing as many people think - if I understand it correctly, a lot of anti-colonial activists of the Bandung conference tendency thought this way.
posted by Frowner at 12:24 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
No, the point would be - if you took this line of reasoning - that a hobbled US would actively produce less bad than a non-hobbled US, so therefore hobbling the US is supporting the better thing. It would be better for the US to become less powerful, less successful, less of a global hegemon - that's the good thing that one supports.
It's the opposite of "not supporting bad things" - it's lesser-evilism at a very high level, since one would be arguing that it's better to support a multi-polar world even if many of the poles are awful governments than to support a US-dominated world. A world where it's Russia/China/US/etc wouldn't be great, one would argue, but it would be less bad than a US-dominated world.
I do not think this is as obviously untrue a thing as many people think - if I understand it correctly, a lot of anti-colonial activists of the Bandung conference tendency thought this way.
posted by Frowner at 12:24 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, you're about to find out. We all are.
posted by tel3path at 12:28 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 12:28 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
The important thing here is that the President-elect has very publicly aligned himself against the outgoing President and most of Congress. But I guess we'll wait and see how he does with domestic policy.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
In the lighter side of the news, Paste Magazine published this article, entitled "In Order to Stop Putin's Cyber War, We Must Use the Threat of Actual War," which cites John "its soft btw" Schindler as a serious expert on Russia and intelligence policy.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
If it weren't Taibbi, with his history in Russia, I'd wonder about his motivations.
I see that he spent some time in Russia and wrote about Russia, but why would that inoculate him from questions about his motivations?
posted by diogenes at 12:31 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I see that he spent some time in Russia and wrote about Russia, but why would that inoculate him from questions about his motivations?
posted by diogenes at 12:31 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, and he's aligned himself against all of our three-letter agencies. Crazy like a fox
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:31 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:31 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I see that he spent some time in Russia and wrote about Russia, but why would that inoculate him from questions about his motivations?
Unless I'm thinking of somebody else, he and his coworkers on The eXile were harassed by Putin and supporters until they left the country. He hates Putin pretty badly, and personally.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:32 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unless I'm thinking of somebody else, he and his coworkers on The eXile were harassed by Putin and supporters until they left the country. He hates Putin pretty badly, and personally.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:32 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I see that he spent some time in Russia and wrote about Russia, but why would that inoculate him from questions about his motivations?
Because he spent his time in Russia railing against the ultra-capitalist oligarchy which ruled that country then and rules it now.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:33 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Because he spent his time in Russia railing against the ultra-capitalist oligarchy which ruled that country then and rules it now.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:33 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, now we're about to be in a place where Paul Ryan has to save us.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:34 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:34 PM on December 30, 2016
So, now we're about to be in a place where Paul Ryan has to save us.
While giggling and pulling off our legs.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
While giggling and pulling off our legs.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
No, I get their reasoning as to why "hobble the US" - - that is, stop the US - - is more morally good. I just disagree both in terms of political feasibility (that is, how easy it is to slowly win large scale support that can be maintained over generations) and also in terms of converting activist effort most efficiently to the best good.
posted by sciatrix at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sciatrix at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
If a handful of Republican senators decided that they weren't willing to hand the keys to Trump without a fight, what would they do? What form would that fight take?
posted by diogenes at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by diogenes at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2016
If a handful of Republican senators decided that they weren't willing to hand the keys to Trump without a fight, what would they do? What form would that fight take?
Getting primaried and replaced in 2018 or 2020.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:37 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Getting primaried and replaced in 2018 or 2020.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:37 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
The official account of the Russian Embassy in the US has retweeted the President elect.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
I can't stop staring at Trumps twitter feed. That pinned tweet sitting under the giant banner of Trump and Pence in front of the American flag is surreal.
posted by diogenes at 12:40 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 12:40 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
The official account of the Russian Embassy in the US has retweeted the President elect.
I think I'm losing my mind...
posted by diogenes at 12:41 PM on December 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
I think I'm losing my mind...
posted by diogenes at 12:41 PM on December 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
dccc staaahp your emails are bad and you should feel bad
posted by jason_steakums at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The official account of the Russian Embassy in the US has retweeted the President elect.
Huh, I'm used to atavistic bodily panic responses from his tweets but this is the first time I've felt existential fear in my shoulders. Neat!
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Huh, I'm used to atavistic bodily panic responses from his tweets but this is the first time I've felt existential fear in my shoulders. Neat!
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
You know how, in the first debate, Hillary played Trump over the beauty pageant winner, and Trump took it hook line and sinker?
The current situation and Trump's continued surreal actions are making me wonder whether we are not watching another careful manipulation, the end-point of which is not yet visible.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
The current situation and Trump's continued surreal actions are making me wonder whether we are not watching another careful manipulation, the end-point of which is not yet visible.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Is there a relationship between Taibbi and Greenwald?
Taibbi left First Look a few years ago.
They seem to be working from the same playbook (and it's a playbook that I really don't understand).
They're being journalists. Their position is reasonable, in that the relevant evidence is still not publicly available. Though at this stage it means that analysts are blatantly making up claims of evidence, it's not unreasonable to suspect that of US intelligence services.
posted by Coventry at 12:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Taibbi left First Look a few years ago.
They seem to be working from the same playbook (and it's a playbook that I really don't understand).
They're being journalists. Their position is reasonable, in that the relevant evidence is still not publicly available. Though at this stage it means that analysts are blatantly making up claims of evidence, it's not unreasonable to suspect that of US intelligence services.
posted by Coventry at 12:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where are the adults?
posted by Brainy at 12:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Brainy at 12:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
The current situation and Trump's continued surreal actions are making me wonder whether we are not watching another careful manipulation, the end-point of which is not yet visible.
I'm starting to wonder if US intelligence has him nailed, he knows it, and this straight-up alliance with Putin is his last-ditch plan?
posted by diogenes at 12:49 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm starting to wonder if US intelligence has him nailed, he knows it, and this straight-up alliance with Putin is his last-ditch plan?
posted by diogenes at 12:49 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Crowdstrike, who had direct access to the servers, came to the conclusion that it was Russian intelligence months ago, when the DNC came forward about the hack. They specifically tied it to the Russian government hackers who hacked the German government. This came out months ago. The continued malicious insistence on pretending none of this ever happened and everybody including every intelligence agency in the US is just making all of this up is infuriating. Months ago it was attributable to ignorance. There is no such excuse anymore.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:49 PM on December 30, 2016 [45 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:49 PM on December 30, 2016 [45 favorites]
I'm starting to wonder if US intelligence has him nailed, he knows it, and this straight-up alliance with Putin is his last-ditch plan?
Occam's razor suggests he's just a stupid narcissist.
posted by Justinian at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
Occam's razor suggests he's just a stupid narcissist.
posted by Justinian at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
witchen - It's just so fucking weird that it calls postwar geopolitical stability into a giant pit of question marks and that in and of itself brings existential risk. No other particular reason this one tweet hits the amygdala so hard, it's just representative.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
analysts are blatantly making up claims of evidence, it's not unreasonable to suspect that of US intelligence services.
Weren't you on board less than 24 hours ago?
posted by diogenes at 12:51 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Weren't you on board less than 24 hours ago?
posted by diogenes at 12:51 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
diogenes, I'm on board, but I regard their position as reasonable.
posted by Coventry at 12:51 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by Coventry at 12:51 PM on December 30, 2016
"I will never believe anything US intelligence agencies say, ever, no matter what" may in some sense be reasonable but it sure isn't very useful or helpful.
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Russian Embassy in the UK sure has a scary tweetline. They seem to be openly crowing about their recent successes.
posted by stonepharisee at 12:53 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by stonepharisee at 12:53 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wonder if trump is still avoiding Intel briefings.
posted by futz at 12:53 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by futz at 12:53 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
From Trump's point of view, business is going swell. That seems to be the concern, rather than any national politics.
posted by stonepharisee at 12:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by stonepharisee at 12:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm just really fucking pissed off by this narrative the deplorables are pushing, especially on Twitter, that suddenly the left has become a bunch of neo-cons who can't wait to go to war with Russia. I know logic isn't really their strong point, but there is a massive amount of daylight between being concerned that a foreign power is interfering in our political process, and launching an all-out war. It's not like there's no middle ground between "STOP WHINING & MOVE ON" and "SEND IN THE TROOPS, LAUNCH THE NUKES." It's just so idiotic and also a lie, and I'm so so tired of the alt-reich trying to control the narrative with utter bullshit. I know that's like saying, "Man, I hate stepping in dog poop!" But sometimes I'm just so overwhelmed with frustration about it, I like want to cry.
Me personally, I hate corrupt autocrats and human rights violations and the surveillance state, no matter what country it's happening in. I don't want them in Russia, I don't want them in Europe, and I sure as fuck don't want them here. I don't think that's a particularly complex or hard-to-grasp view. But the propagandists all want to pretend like it is.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 12:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [37 favorites]
Me personally, I hate corrupt autocrats and human rights violations and the surveillance state, no matter what country it's happening in. I don't want them in Russia, I don't want them in Europe, and I sure as fuck don't want them here. I don't think that's a particularly complex or hard-to-grasp view. But the propagandists all want to pretend like it is.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 12:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [37 favorites]
One thing I resent the most about our post-11/8 reality is that I can no longer discern threats from hypotheticals from all the GAD my brain brings to the party.
This will be a great challenge for the duration of the emergency. The important thing is to avoid panic and make measured and appropriate responses whenever possible. Panic will only make us forget the tools that we're already carrying.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
This will be a great challenge for the duration of the emergency. The important thing is to avoid panic and make measured and appropriate responses whenever possible. Panic will only make us forget the tools that we're already carrying.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Russian Embassy in the UK sure has a scary tweetline. They seem to be openly crowing about their recent successes.
Holy shit.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Holy shit.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But given what we've seen these weeks,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction tweets
Are also great
And would suffice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [23 favorites]
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But given what we've seen these weeks,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction tweets
Are also great
And would suffice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [23 favorites]
They seem to be taking the Denny's Social Media Manager approach to international politics, yeah.
posted by cortex at 12:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex at 12:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Russian Embassy in the UK sure has a scary tweetline. They seem to be openly crowing about their recent successes.
Holy shit.
See also the tweet I posted earlier, which literally taunts Obama as a lame duck with an MS Paint-level graphic.
posted by dhens at 1:00 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Holy shit.
See also the tweet I posted earlier, which literally taunts Obama as a lame duck with an MS Paint-level graphic.
posted by dhens at 1:00 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
From the BBC: This is no new Cold War. Russia is simply a kind of "pocket" superpower, nothing like the Soviet Union of old. But Mr Putin has shown here in relations with the West, as in Ukraine and Syria, that he can play a limited hand with great skill. Mr Trump will need to respond to this challenge in a decisive but graduated way.
posted by tel3path at 1:01 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 1:01 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mr Trump will need to respond to this challenge in a decisive but graduated way.
LOL
posted by dhens at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [26 favorites]
LOL
posted by dhens at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [26 favorites]
> They seem to be taking the Denny's Social Media Manager approach to international politics, yeah.
I just hope Moons Over My Hammy doesn't become Booms Over Miami.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
I just hope Moons Over My Hammy doesn't become Booms Over Miami.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Mr Trump will need to respond to this challenge in a decisive but graduated way.
Are they not on twitter? I'm pretty sure Trump doesn't see Russia as a challenge that needs to be dealt with.
posted by diogenes at 1:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are they not on twitter? I'm pretty sure Trump doesn't see Russia as a challenge that needs to be dealt with.
posted by diogenes at 1:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
They were taking the piss, right?
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Their position is reasonable, in that the relevant evidence is still not publicly available.
There's plenty of publicly available evidence, and it's getting old for people like Taibbi and Greenwald keep saying its not when they really are looking for proof. The world is complicated, covert agencies operate in secret, some facts are unknowable, but proof will be an impossible goal if any evidence is automatically discarded because it's not 100% available, transparent, and easily understood.
posted by peeedro at 1:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's plenty of publicly available evidence, and it's getting old for people like Taibbi and Greenwald keep saying its not when they really are looking for proof. The world is complicated, covert agencies operate in secret, some facts are unknowable, but proof will be an impossible goal if any evidence is automatically discarded because it's not 100% available, transparent, and easily understood.
posted by peeedro at 1:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
That Taibbi article was crap - wah "they" fooled us on WMDs so what's really real man. Really? I followed the WMD thing pretty closely, for an average consumizen, and it was bs from the start - all the way down. Who *didn't* see that besides Judith Miller?
This is different for 100 good reasons but mostly because it's not blurred sat images and powdered sugar in vials. People study this stuff all day who aren't in a TLD and they'd probably talk at you about it if you asked.
I did think this tidbit was interesting tho:
Then there was the episode in which the Washington Post ran that breathless story about Russians aiding the spread of "fake news." That irresponsible story turned out to have been largely based on one highly dubious source called "PropOrNot" that identified 200 different American alternative media organizations as "useful idiots" of the Russian state.
The Post eventually distanced itself from the story, saying it "does not itself vouch for the validity of PropOrNot's findings." This was a very strange thing to say in a statement that isn't an outright retraction.
Well, yeah, it is. So okay on that one.
posted by petebest at 1:11 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is different for 100 good reasons but mostly because it's not blurred sat images and powdered sugar in vials. People study this stuff all day who aren't in a TLD and they'd probably talk at you about it if you asked.
I did think this tidbit was interesting tho:
Then there was the episode in which the Washington Post ran that breathless story about Russians aiding the spread of "fake news." That irresponsible story turned out to have been largely based on one highly dubious source called "PropOrNot" that identified 200 different American alternative media organizations as "useful idiots" of the Russian state.
The Post eventually distanced itself from the story, saying it "does not itself vouch for the validity of PropOrNot's findings." This was a very strange thing to say in a statement that isn't an outright retraction.
Well, yeah, it is. So okay on that one.
posted by petebest at 1:11 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
This seems like an existential threat to American values because that's what it is. It comes across as fundamentally un-American to side with Russia against the American government (!) like this, whether Russia comes in the guise of an oligarchy or a Communist superpower.
I don't know what's going on here, but if Trump has any kind of plan it looks like he's making a deal to sell the USA to Russia.
I mean that would be the biggest real estate deal of his career, no?
I wish I were joking but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if that's what he thinks he's doing. Don't forget, the USA bought Alaska from Russia back in 1867. And Alaska is so conveniently close!
posted by tel3path at 1:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
I don't know what's going on here, but if Trump has any kind of plan it looks like he's making a deal to sell the USA to Russia.
I mean that would be the biggest real estate deal of his career, no?
I wish I were joking but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if that's what he thinks he's doing. Don't forget, the USA bought Alaska from Russia back in 1867. And Alaska is so conveniently close!
posted by tel3path at 1:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
Matt Yglesias, Vox: 30 years ago, Trump proposed allying with the USSR against France and Pakistan
Does Donald Trump have a secret, long-held plan to overturn decades of American foreign policy, forge an alliance with Russia, and deliver a one-two punch to force other countries — including NATO allies like France — to give up their nuclear programs?posted by tonycpsu at 1:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have no idea. Trump has said a lot of things over the years, including that he favors a government guarantee of health insurance and legal abortion in all circumstances, that he appears to no longer believe. He’s had a lot of opportunities over the course of the past year to try to explain in clearer terms what it is that draws him to Vladimir Putin’s Russia, and he’s never offered this as a reason.
On the other hand, he clearly does have some kind of interest in a geopolitical rapprochement with Moscow, and he’s never really made it clear what it is he thinks he can get in exchange for making concessions to Russia on Syria and Ukraine. Maybe this scheme to turn the screws on France and Pakistan is the intended endgame. Or maybe Trump has entirely forgotten that this interview ever happened.
so, serious question
you know how all that great poetry got made by WWI soldiers
was that because they were doing things like hanging out in the trenches and writing sonnets in Latin like in Ford Maddox Ford books?
because I had this horrible thought: what if the art all this *gestures vaguely around* brings about is the profound TWEET no no no no
posted by angrycat at 1:21 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
you know how all that great poetry got made by WWI soldiers
was that because they were doing things like hanging out in the trenches and writing sonnets in Latin like in Ford Maddox Ford books?
because I had this horrible thought: what if the art all this *gestures vaguely around* brings about is the profound TWEET no no no no
posted by angrycat at 1:21 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
As someone who has been mocked for both believing Trump's Russia involvement went deeper than suspected and for criticizing Greenwald, I'm feeling a bit smug.
Too bad he will kill us all.
posted by asteria at 1:25 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Too bad he will kill us all.
posted by asteria at 1:25 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm expecting a few Alexander Haig, "I'm in charge" moments during the next four to eight years when government officials have to hold a press conference to explain what's going on and they get it wrong. Lots.
posted by petebest at 1:36 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by petebest at 1:36 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm expecting a few Alexander Haig, "I'm in charge" moments during the next four to eight years when government officials have to hold a press conference to explain what's going on and they get it wrong. Lots.
"Amelia Bedelia and the Nuclear Football"
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
"Amelia Bedelia and the Nuclear Football"
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Imagine the fun we're going to have when an entity with the belligerence and amorality of Russia and the power of an America without its moderating systems decides to gang up on China on all fronts, diplomatic, military, regulatory, financial and commercial.
Or, if you don't want to imagine it, just hang around for a little while and watch it happen.
Whee.
And whose side will you be on? Fortunately for us Brits, we're part of the largest other democratic bloc on the planet.
O wate.
posted by Devonian at 2:01 PM on December 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
Or, if you don't want to imagine it, just hang around for a little while and watch it happen.
Whee.
And whose side will you be on? Fortunately for us Brits, we're part of the largest other democratic bloc on the planet.
O wate.
posted by Devonian at 2:01 PM on December 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
Critiques of the DHS/FBI’s GRIZZLY STEPPE Report
...many (30%+) of these IP addresses are mostly useless as they are VPS, TOR exit nodes, proxies, and other non-descriptive internet traffic sites...posted by Coventry at 2:06 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The report was to detail new tradecraft and techniques used by the RIS and specifically noted that defenders could leverage this to find new tactics and techniques. Except – it doesn’t. The report instead gives a high-level overview of how APT28 and APT29 have been reported to operate which is very generic and similar to many adversary campaigns...
This ultimately seems like a very rushed report put together by multiple teams working different data sets and motivations. It is my opinion and speculation that there were some really good government analysts and operators contributing to this data and then report reviews, leadership approval processes, and sanitation processes stripped out most of the value and left behind a very confusing report trying to cover too much while saying too little.
We must do better as a community. This report is a good example of how a really strong strategic message (POTUS statement) and really good data (government and private sector combination) can be opened to critique due to poor report writing.
"On the other hand, he clearly does have some kind of interest in a geopolitical rapprochement with Moscow, and he’s never really made it clear what it is he thinks he can get in exchange for making concessions to Russia on Syria and Ukraine."
I now can't get this thought out of my head, as asinine as I think the idea really is. I mean what does pmurt do? He's a real estate developer. He's giving Russia his seemingly unconditional support. There has to be a quid pro quo, there has to be something he thinks he can get. And there has to be something Turnip thinks he can get from pmurt.
I mean it would be the absolute dumbest, most 3-year-old idea possible. But given a little time and enough chumminess, maybe Putin could have a little patch of Alaska to call his own, you know, a little dacha to sink into the melting permafrost if there is still any permafrost; or more plausibly, part or whole ownership of a company and consequently access to land in Alaska's petrochemical industry; and well you can guess the rest.
As deranged and whackadoodle and nutty as that sounds, and as much as no rational adult would ever in their barmiest fever-dreams come up with that plan in the first place much less think it was feasible, well, you can guess the rest.
posted by tel3path at 2:09 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I now can't get this thought out of my head, as asinine as I think the idea really is. I mean what does pmurt do? He's a real estate developer. He's giving Russia his seemingly unconditional support. There has to be a quid pro quo, there has to be something he thinks he can get. And there has to be something Turnip thinks he can get from pmurt.
I mean it would be the absolute dumbest, most 3-year-old idea possible. But given a little time and enough chumminess, maybe Putin could have a little patch of Alaska to call his own, you know, a little dacha to sink into the melting permafrost if there is still any permafrost; or more plausibly, part or whole ownership of a company and consequently access to land in Alaska's petrochemical industry; and well you can guess the rest.
As deranged and whackadoodle and nutty as that sounds, and as much as no rational adult would ever in their barmiest fever-dreams come up with that plan in the first place much less think it was feasible, well, you can guess the rest.
posted by tel3path at 2:09 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Critiques of the DHS/FBI’s GRIZZLY STEPPE Report
The section you copied is interesting I guess, but this section seems more relevant to our discussion.
The White House’s response is ultimately a strong and accurate statement. The attribution towards the Russian government was confirmed by the US government using their sources and methods on top of good private sector analysis. I am going to critique aspects of the DHS/FBI report below but I want to make a very clear statement: POTUS’ statement, the multiple government agency response, and the validation of private sector intelligence by the government is wholly a great response.
posted by diogenes at 2:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
The section you copied is interesting I guess, but this section seems more relevant to our discussion.
The White House’s response is ultimately a strong and accurate statement. The attribution towards the Russian government was confirmed by the US government using their sources and methods on top of good private sector analysis. I am going to critique aspects of the DHS/FBI report below but I want to make a very clear statement: POTUS’ statement, the multiple government agency response, and the validation of private sector intelligence by the government is wholly a great response.
posted by diogenes at 2:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
Charles Pierce: If We Tolerate This, What Won't We Tolerate? Lessons on emoluments from the founders.
Even Trump Can't Afford to Roll Back Obama's Russia Sanctions. But does he even care about the consequences?
A Few Thoughts on the Democratic Party's 'Hostility' Toward Religion: An ex-Obama aide offers political futility masquerading as tolerance.
The Only Guy Who Predicted 2016 Did It in 380 B.C.
posted by homunculus at 2:15 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Even Trump Can't Afford to Roll Back Obama's Russia Sanctions. But does he even care about the consequences?
A Few Thoughts on the Democratic Party's 'Hostility' Toward Religion: An ex-Obama aide offers political futility masquerading as tolerance.
The Only Guy Who Predicted 2016 Did It in 380 B.C.
posted by homunculus at 2:15 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The section you copied is interesting I guess, but this section seems more relevant to our discussion.
It's relevant to yesterday's discussion of this report.
posted by Coventry at 2:18 PM on December 30, 2016
It's relevant to yesterday's discussion of this report.
posted by Coventry at 2:18 PM on December 30, 2016
holy crapola
@realDonaldTrump
Russians are playing @CNN and @NBCNews for such fools - funny to watch, they don't have a clue! @FoxNews totally gets it!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
Russians are playing @CNN and @NBCNews for such fools - funny to watch, they don't have a clue! @FoxNews totally gets it!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think we can assume "weaken or get rid of NATO" is Putin's get in this. As well as generally destabilizing things in his favor so that there's no coordinated response to whatever he wants to do/wherever he wants to invade.
Since we haven't seen Donald's tax returns or financials (now THERE's a ripe target for hacking/whistleblowing) my assumption right now is that Russian banks have enough of Donald's debt that he has to play nice or go under. The only place he is vulnerable is if he loses his money, because his only identity is "rich guy who can do what he wants." I think he'd probably be a pretty cheap asset for the Russians, overall, if he's really desperate.
posted by emjaybee at 2:21 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Since we haven't seen Donald's tax returns or financials (now THERE's a ripe target for hacking/whistleblowing) my assumption right now is that Russian banks have enough of Donald's debt that he has to play nice or go under. The only place he is vulnerable is if he loses his money, because his only identity is "rich guy who can do what he wants." I think he'd probably be a pretty cheap asset for the Russians, overall, if he's really desperate.
posted by emjaybee at 2:21 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
> The section you copied is interesting I guess, but this section seems more relevant to our discussion.
I think the entirety of Lee's post is relevant to the discussion. Many of his critiques are valid -- there's always room for improvement in cyber security, particularly around indicator sharing and vetting.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:21 PM on December 30, 2016
I think the entirety of Lee's post is relevant to the discussion. Many of his critiques are valid -- there's always room for improvement in cyber security, particularly around indicator sharing and vetting.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:21 PM on December 30, 2016
The Only Guy Who Predicted 2016 Did It in 380 B.C.
Norman Finkelstein had a great class discussion in the aftermath of November 8, about Plato's Republic and the ship-of-state metaphor.
posted by Coventry at 2:26 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Norman Finkelstein had a great class discussion in the aftermath of November 8, about Plato's Republic and the ship-of-state metaphor.
posted by Coventry at 2:26 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
there's always room for improvement in cyber security, particularly around indicator sharing and vetting
I suppose we could focus on how well written the indicator sharing section of the report was...
posted by diogenes at 2:27 PM on December 30, 2016
I suppose we could focus on how well written the indicator sharing section of the report was...
posted by diogenes at 2:27 PM on December 30, 2016
@realDonaldTrump
Russians are playing @CNN and @NBCNews for such fools - funny to watch, they don't have a clue! @FoxNews totally gets it!
He also pinned the Putin tweet to the top of his timeline.
He's just flipping everybody the bird right now.
posted by Talez at 2:36 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Russians are playing @CNN and @NBCNews for such fools - funny to watch, they don't have a clue! @FoxNews totally gets it!
He also pinned the Putin tweet to the top of his timeline.
He's just flipping everybody the bird right now.
posted by Talez at 2:36 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Literally cannot wait to hear BBC newshour discussing the geopolitical implications of tweet pinning
posted by theodolite at 2:38 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 2:38 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
North Carolina Judge Blocks Attempt To Strip Governor Of Some Powers
After the election, the Republican controlled Legislature passed two laws to limit the governor's power, in what Democrats called a "power grab." The law put on hold Friday would, as we reported earlier this month, remove the State Board of Elections from the governor's control by reducing the number of members on the board from five — three of whom could be from the governor's party — to four members, evenly split between the parties.posted by Existential Dread at 2:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
The Associated Press reports that law is now on hold:
"Wake County Superior Court Judge Don Stephens ruled Friday that the risk to free and fair elections justified stopping the law from taking effect this weekend until it could be reviewed more closely. Stephens plans to review the law Thursday."
Bloomberg: Trump Said to Consider Aide Conway’s Husband for Top Legal Job
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
President-elect Donald Trump is considering George Conway, a long-time corporate lawyer and the husband of senior adviser Kellyanne Conway, to be U.S. solicitor general, the government top appellate lawyer, according to two people familiar with the matter.I feel like this is all part of the problem that DJT doesn't know anybody in government nor have a wide circle of friends. So he has to tap family and family of trusted friends.
Conway, who’s spent more than two decades as a partner at New York corporate legal powerhouse Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz, has made a career representing high-profile clients from the National Football League to tobacco maker Phillip Morris, according to his biography on the firm’s website. He wasn’t directly involved in Trump’s presidential campaign, which was managed by his wife.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
@wikileaks continues their pro-Russia coverage. They're even retweeting Breitbart now.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:48 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:48 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
So, Trump just sided directly and openly with Putin against our government.
CLINTON: Well, that's because he'd rather have a puppet as president of the United States.posted by kirkaracha at 2:49 PM on December 30, 2016 [28 favorites]
TRUMP: No puppet. No puppet.
CLINTON: And it's pretty clear...
TRUMP: You're the puppet!
CLINTON: It's pretty clear you won't admit...
TRUMP: No, you're the puppet.
BuzzFeed News Some DC Restaurants Are Donating Their Inauguration Profits To Anti-Trump Organizations
More than a dozen high-profile DC restaurants have pledged to donate a portion of their inauguration weekend profits to charity and aid organizations, including Planned Parenthood and an organization benefitting immigrants.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:49 PM on December 30, 2016 [27 favorites]
Sarah Massey of All In Service, the group organizing the inauguration weekend donations said that the 14 restaurants, bars, and cafes currently listed on the website are just the beginning.
They're even retweeting Breitbart now.
Breitbart? Wikileaks were retweeting Spirit Cooking stuff in the last days before the election.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:51 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Breitbart? Wikileaks were retweeting Spirit Cooking stuff in the last days before the election.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:51 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Good point. They've become more of a "news you can use" outlet lately.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:53 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:53 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wikileaks was so obsessed with pointing out the imperfections of the good to notice that it was forgetting to say anything about at all the evil.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
George Conway goes all the way back to the Paula Jones lawsuit. Appointing him would be just one more insult.
posted by zachlipton at 3:00 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:00 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
The New Civil Rights Movement Mormon Tabernacle Choir Singer Who Quit Rather Than Perform for Trump Gets the Fox News Treatment
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:07 PM on December 30, 2016 [43 favorites]
In a Fox News column [Todd] Starnes describes Chamberlin as "distraught," and her heartfelt explanation merely explaining why she cannot perform for Trump and thus chose to resign, "shrieking" and "hysterics.""Hysterics" "shrieking" and "hissy fit"-- all terms used to belittle women's opinions. Sub-text: "These women should just shut-up and sing and dance without question."
"Ms. Chamberlin's shrieking," Starnes concludes, in his uniquely misogynistic manner, "is similar to the hysterics coming from Radio City Music Hall - where several Rockettes pitched a hissy fit over their participation in the inauguration."
"For the record, President-elect Trump has never invaded a sovereign nation, nor has exterminated millions of innocent people," Starnes writes, as if those were Hitler's only crimes.
"And to compare the next president of the United States to Hitler is not only intellectually dishonest - it's downright repulsive,"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:07 PM on December 30, 2016 [43 favorites]
Email reveals Government Ethics director ordered tweets praising Trump
“Post the following tweets. I would like them posted first thing —8:30 if possible or as soon as possible thereafter . Post them all at once,” he wrote in an email including nine tweets mentioning the president-elect's account.
After Trump tweeted that he would leave his “great business in total,” the agency, dedicated to providing leadership to help the president avoid conflicts of interest, sent out a series of tweets calling the move “Brilliant!”
After the tweets, many initially speculated that the agency's account had been hacked. A statement from the agency's spokesman confirmed that the tweets were legitimate.
posted by futz at 3:10 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
“Post the following tweets. I would like them posted first thing —8:30 if possible or as soon as possible thereafter . Post them all at once,” he wrote in an email including nine tweets mentioning the president-elect's account.
After Trump tweeted that he would leave his “great business in total,” the agency, dedicated to providing leadership to help the president avoid conflicts of interest, sent out a series of tweets calling the move “Brilliant!”
After the tweets, many initially speculated that the agency's account had been hacked. A statement from the agency's spokesman confirmed that the tweets were legitimate.
posted by futz at 3:10 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm glad to see a conscientious individual making an impact. What she is thinking, most likely other members of the choir are also thinking, and I hope more follow suit.
Well either that, or sing a cover version of the Ugandan villagers' chorus from The Book Of Mormon, substituting the president-elect's name.
And I hope the Rockettes either plan to accompany this with a mass choreography spelling out the lyrics in formation, or else don't have enough performers to do that.
posted by tel3path at 3:12 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well either that, or sing a cover version of the Ugandan villagers' chorus from The Book Of Mormon, substituting the president-elect's name.
And I hope the Rockettes either plan to accompany this with a mass choreography spelling out the lyrics in formation, or else don't have enough performers to do that.
posted by tel3path at 3:12 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's been clear for a while that conservatives are willing to cast aside some of their "core values" when it's politically convenient, but I never suspected that patriotism was on that list.
posted by diogenes at 3:13 PM on December 30, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 3:13 PM on December 30, 2016 [33 favorites]
What is the term for gaslighting, but in a way that's beyond gratuitous?
Propaganda.
posted by tel3path at 3:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Things I learned on Facebook today about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir thing:
* Libruls being proud of someone for quitting their job instead of doing something morally objectionable is a "double standard" because that's what they tell pharmacists to do but they don't
* What ever happened to "tolerance" ??
* Donald Trump is a protected class, apparently
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
* Libruls being proud of someone for quitting their job instead of doing something morally objectionable is a "double standard" because that's what they tell pharmacists to do but they don't
* What ever happened to "tolerance" ??
* Donald Trump is a protected class, apparently
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Mar-a-Lago sold tickets to New Year’s Eve party with Trump
...Spicer, on a Friday morning conference call with reporters, said the party is already “sold out” with more than 800 people scheduled to attend, including actor Sylvester Stallone and music producer Quincy Jones, in addition to Trump, his wife, incoming first lady Melania Trump, and their son Barron Trump.
...Incoming White House Director of Strategic Communications Hope Hicks rejected criticisms that Mar-a-Lago was selling access to the president-elect.
“The transition is not concerned about the appearance of a conflict,” she said. “This is an annual celebratory event at the private club, like others that have continued to occur since the election. Additionally, the president cannot and does not have a conflict.”
...While the party is a longstanding event at Mar-a-Lago, with Trump now president-elect, the arrangement could raise further questions about Trump’s businesses and how people might try to use them to gain access to his administration.
Ya think?
posted by futz at 3:23 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
...Spicer, on a Friday morning conference call with reporters, said the party is already “sold out” with more than 800 people scheduled to attend, including actor Sylvester Stallone and music producer Quincy Jones, in addition to Trump, his wife, incoming first lady Melania Trump, and their son Barron Trump.
...Incoming White House Director of Strategic Communications Hope Hicks rejected criticisms that Mar-a-Lago was selling access to the president-elect.
“The transition is not concerned about the appearance of a conflict,” she said. “This is an annual celebratory event at the private club, like others that have continued to occur since the election. Additionally, the president cannot and does not have a conflict.”
...While the party is a longstanding event at Mar-a-Lago, with Trump now president-elect, the arrangement could raise further questions about Trump’s businesses and how people might try to use them to gain access to his administration.
Ya think?
posted by futz at 3:23 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
There has to be a quid pro quo, there has to be something he thinks he can get.
Global validation and love. Wait til the feces impact the air movement device.
posted by petebest at 3:24 PM on December 30, 2016
Global validation and love. Wait til the feces impact the air movement device.
posted by petebest at 3:24 PM on December 30, 2016
I got tears in my eyes when I read his last two pro-Putin tweets and I couldn't figure out why they bothered me so much. Then I realized that no matter who was elected President in the past, while I might not like their policies I still felt that they were on the side of America and Americans and would do their best for the country as a whole. I don't feel that way about Trump. I honestly think he does not care about what is best for this country, only what is best for himself. That's an empty, scary feeling to have about your leader.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:24 PM on December 30, 2016 [63 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:24 PM on December 30, 2016 [63 favorites]
Trump is going to rob you blind, America. Half for him, half for Russia.
posted by Yowser at 3:27 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Yowser at 3:27 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
could raise further questions about Trump’s businesses and how people might try to use them to gain access to his administration.
the tell there is "could". A real press would be tearing this issue up. But, we don't have a real press, we have corporate media companies who produce approved content for money.
Much like pmurT.
posted by petebest at 3:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
the tell there is "could". A real press would be tearing this issue up. But, we don't have a real press, we have corporate media companies who produce approved content for money.
Much like pmurT.
posted by petebest at 3:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
BuzzFeed North Carolina Governor Seeks To Stop Special Elections
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:32 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Less than 36 hours before he is due to leave office, North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory has made a last-ditch attempt to influence the way the state will run after he leaves office.Fucking bastard. Just go already. You've done enough damage.
McCrory hired high-power Republican Supreme Court lawyer Paul Clement to ask the US Supreme Court to halt a lower court’s order from Nov. 29 that a special election be held for state legislative seats in North Carolina in 2017.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:32 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
I still felt that they were on the side of America and Americans and would do their best for the country as a whole
I sometimes felt like they were looking out for some demographics over others, but I never doubted that they believed in and would protect our form of government.
posted by diogenes at 3:36 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
I sometimes felt like they were looking out for some demographics over others, but I never doubted that they believed in and would protect our form of government.
posted by diogenes at 3:36 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Don't know how I missed Ivanka moving into the First Lady's office, but . . . That is some creepy fuckin shit.
A "spokesperson" said it was false and also no decisions have been made . . . Yet.
posted by petebest at 3:39 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
A "spokesperson" said it was false and also no decisions have been made . . . Yet.
posted by petebest at 3:39 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, digenes, exactly. I do think DJT would trade our country for a handful of magic beans because he is foolish and he doesn't care.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:40 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:40 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mar-a-Lago sold tickets to New Year’s Eve party with Trump
Well that's a relief. It has been a week since the last Trump deal news broke (and that was the NY Times' kinda breathless account of how Trump & Co really was making progress on divestiture/trusteeship), and I've been getting antsy to update Trumpslyvania with some fresh deal news.
posted by notyou at 3:41 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well that's a relief. It has been a week since the last Trump deal news broke (and that was the NY Times' kinda breathless account of how Trump & Co really was making progress on divestiture/trusteeship), and I've been getting antsy to update Trumpslyvania with some fresh deal news.
posted by notyou at 3:41 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
8. The fucked-uppedness of Russia does not mean that Russia isn't a counterweight power - the US can't be world hegemon if there are other large, strong states with substantial military and economic power which have different interests. Russia and China do act as checks on US actions.
Except that "hobbling" being spoken about and the actions of the US to overthrow or otherwise harm left wing governments are tied together. It's because the USSR was acting as a counter to the US that the US feared left wing governments siding with the Soviets and did wacky stuff like get involved in Korea and Vietnam. It's seeing the world as a chessboard, worrying about the moves the other big power is making that led the US to make some morally indefensible decisions since they worried not making them would lead to worse results for US interests. (And that can mean business and ideals as those two things work together too.)
There was a brief time the US wasn't hobbled. It was called the Bill Clinton presidency. After the fall of the Soviet Union and before the rise of a more strengthened China, the US was the sole super power, unchallenged until, no surprise, the Republicans decided that was too much and worked to weaken the US by impeaching Clinton. Until they did though, one could argue that if the leader of the US could be thought of as wielding the power of the US, then Bill Clinton may have been and may long be the most powerful individual ever for those short few years.
The challenges of his presidency, in foreign affairs, were tied mostly to trying to bring peace to North Ireland, the Middle East, and the Balkans, with worries about how best to use force or not use it coming from events in Africa (Somalia and Rwanda primarily) and which informed his actions in Iraq. Clinton didn't get the US involved in Rwanda in part due to the response at home to the Somalian "Black Hawk Down" incident, which led to more caution getting involved in outside conflicts. That aided in the genocide that took place in Rwanda leading to a renewed emphasis on involvement, but with minimum US forces on the ground and more targeted bombing. The aims were at least reasonably argued as working towards stabilizing the world order by countering dictators, terrorists and potential genocides.
So it isn't quite the same sort of activities that were thought "strategic" during the Cold War era, and they were strongly influenced by popular opinion at home and abroad. He didn't get it right some of the time, if there were even a way to be "right" in some of these situations, and faced much criticism for those perceived mistakes, which suggests lacking outside "hobbles" the internal concerns of US citizens gain in importance as that is the main source of potential weakness, internal dissent and the resulting loss of power. That the Republicans took advantage of that is no surprise, they've long been willing to weaken the country for the sake of their own power; that Bush II completely pissed it all away in the aftermath of 9/11 and the rise of China, Putin, and terrorists, allowing the US to be hobbled again and start invading countries indiscriminately might too suggest the hobbles aren't necessarily any better for the US or the world as well.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Except that "hobbling" being spoken about and the actions of the US to overthrow or otherwise harm left wing governments are tied together. It's because the USSR was acting as a counter to the US that the US feared left wing governments siding with the Soviets and did wacky stuff like get involved in Korea and Vietnam. It's seeing the world as a chessboard, worrying about the moves the other big power is making that led the US to make some morally indefensible decisions since they worried not making them would lead to worse results for US interests. (And that can mean business and ideals as those two things work together too.)
There was a brief time the US wasn't hobbled. It was called the Bill Clinton presidency. After the fall of the Soviet Union and before the rise of a more strengthened China, the US was the sole super power, unchallenged until, no surprise, the Republicans decided that was too much and worked to weaken the US by impeaching Clinton. Until they did though, one could argue that if the leader of the US could be thought of as wielding the power of the US, then Bill Clinton may have been and may long be the most powerful individual ever for those short few years.
The challenges of his presidency, in foreign affairs, were tied mostly to trying to bring peace to North Ireland, the Middle East, and the Balkans, with worries about how best to use force or not use it coming from events in Africa (Somalia and Rwanda primarily) and which informed his actions in Iraq. Clinton didn't get the US involved in Rwanda in part due to the response at home to the Somalian "Black Hawk Down" incident, which led to more caution getting involved in outside conflicts. That aided in the genocide that took place in Rwanda leading to a renewed emphasis on involvement, but with minimum US forces on the ground and more targeted bombing. The aims were at least reasonably argued as working towards stabilizing the world order by countering dictators, terrorists and potential genocides.
So it isn't quite the same sort of activities that were thought "strategic" during the Cold War era, and they were strongly influenced by popular opinion at home and abroad. He didn't get it right some of the time, if there were even a way to be "right" in some of these situations, and faced much criticism for those perceived mistakes, which suggests lacking outside "hobbles" the internal concerns of US citizens gain in importance as that is the main source of potential weakness, internal dissent and the resulting loss of power. That the Republicans took advantage of that is no surprise, they've long been willing to weaken the country for the sake of their own power; that Bush II completely pissed it all away in the aftermath of 9/11 and the rise of China, Putin, and terrorists, allowing the US to be hobbled again and start invading countries indiscriminately might too suggest the hobbles aren't necessarily any better for the US or the world as well.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
James Bamford from 2 months ago: Commentary: Don't be so sure Russia hacked the Clinton emails.
Is there evidence that more information has come to light since then?
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:44 PM on December 30, 2016
Is there evidence that more information has come to light since then?
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:44 PM on December 30, 2016
Don't know how I missed Ivanka moving into the First Lady's office
I'm kinda operating with a roughly 20% chance that Ivanka is the Dick Cheney here.
Would be first Jewish First Lady, I believe?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 3:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm kinda operating with a roughly 20% chance that Ivanka is the Dick Cheney here.
Would be first Jewish First Lady, I believe?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 3:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Senior Kasich advisor.
@JWGOP:
What an outrage Trump would side with a brutal, murdering, power mad Putin over America. My God. Trump's presidency is tainted.
posted by chris24 at 3:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [38 favorites]
@JWGOP:
What an outrage Trump would side with a brutal, murdering, power mad Putin over America. My God. Trump's presidency is tainted.
posted by chris24 at 3:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [38 favorites]
George Conway goes all the way back to the Paula Jones lawsuit. Appointing him would be just one more insult.
What's the saying, all beans stick together in the bottom of the pot? I think in this case it's like the lump of evil in Time Bandits, but same thing; they stick together.
Which makes sense, because no one but other hatefuls wants to be around them.
posted by emjaybee at 3:56 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
What's the saying, all beans stick together in the bottom of the pot? I think in this case it's like the lump of evil in Time Bandits, but same thing; they stick together.
Which makes sense, because no one but other hatefuls wants to be around them.
posted by emjaybee at 3:56 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dear god, can we stop with the convoluted and increasingly annoying ways to avoid using the name Trump? I swear I read one comment 15 times trying to figure out what it meant. It's childish, it's difficult to read, it makes me want to skip any comment that does it, it doesn't accomplish a damn thing, and it's also what the right wing has been doing for years. If you want to disrespect him, use actual words like Cheeto Hitler or something else that is at least comprehensible. Or maybe don't lower yourself to the level of the people going around talking about Obummer and Killary.
posted by threeturtles at 3:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [47 favorites]
posted by threeturtles at 3:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [47 favorites]
StrawberryPie, what convinced me was the claim that the bit.ly shortened URLs resolved to domains which have been used in other attacks attributed to the Russian Federation, where it had a clear interest. That information was available at the time of Bamford's commentary, but I don't think he addressed it. I haven't seen any other skeptical analysis of that specific information, either.
Given the way yesterday's report was written, I suppose it's possible that the overlap could just be a couple of accidentally reused domains from AWS or similar VPS services. That still seems unlikely, though.
I wish they would release that URL-resolution information, and the correspondences with domains used in other attacks. It's hard to see how that could compromise anything at this stage.
posted by Coventry at 4:01 PM on December 30, 2016
Given the way yesterday's report was written, I suppose it's possible that the overlap could just be a couple of accidentally reused domains from AWS or similar VPS services. That still seems unlikely, though.
I wish they would release that URL-resolution information, and the correspondences with domains used in other attacks. It's hard to see how that could compromise anything at this stage.
posted by Coventry at 4:01 PM on December 30, 2016
George Conway III has somehow escaped the attention of our oh so vigilant news organizations.
MSNBC and CNN left-wing? L fucking O L.
posted by Yowser at 4:02 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
MSNBC and CNN left-wing? L fucking O L.
posted by Yowser at 4:02 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had a "Cheeto Benito Finito" comment all lined up for when Hills won.
It's true. I put it in my calendar. I also had "Reader, I elected her." Need more booze now.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:02 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's true. I put it in my calendar. I also had "Reader, I elected her." Need more booze now.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:02 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Dear god, can we stop with the convoluted and increasingly annoying ways to avoid using the name Trump?
PROTIP: just calling him "Donald" is both correct and disrespectful
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:06 PM on December 30, 2016 [38 favorites]
PROTIP: just calling him "Donald" is both correct and disrespectful
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:06 PM on December 30, 2016 [38 favorites]
I had a "Cheeto Benito Finito" comment all lined up
Keep it on file. May come in handy sooner than you think.
posted by Surely This at 4:10 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Keep it on file. May come in handy sooner than you think.
posted by Surely This at 4:10 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Twitter says Quincy Jones NOT attending Trump NYE. You keep staying away from that Kryptonite, Quincy.
posted by emjaybee at 4:11 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 4:11 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jay "PressThink" Rosen, who does NON-cringeworthy Media Commentary (I know, a low bar to clear, but he usually goes far above and at worst, still clears it), has a numbered list of Prospects for the American press under Trump (not good) and Measures worth taking (not “solutions.”)
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm watching Grosse Pointe Blank, why do I feel like we are all Minnie Driver now
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:28 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:28 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Washington Post Russian hackers penetrated U.S. electricity grid through a utility in Vermont, U.S. officials say
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:35 PM on December 30, 2016 [21 favorites]
A code associated with the Russian hacking operation dubbed Grizzly Steppe by the Obama administration has been detected within the system of a Vermont utility, according to U.S. officials.I have to believe that this information was given to DJT during one of his intelligence briefings. Whether or not he chose to believe it remains to be seen.
While the Russians did not actively use the code to disrupt operations of the utility, according to officials who spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss a security matter, the penetration of the nation’s electrical grid is significant because it represents a potentially serious vulnerability. Government and utility industry officials regularly monitor the nation’s electrical grid because it is highly computerized and any disruptions can have disastrous implications for the function of medical and emergency services.
American officials, including one senior administration official, said they are not yet sure what the intentions of the Russians might have been. The penetration may have been designed to disrupt the utility’s operations or as a test by the Russians to see whether they could penetrate a portion of the grid.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:35 PM on December 30, 2016 [21 favorites]
I have to believe that this information was given to DJT during one of his intelligence briefings.
"Vermont? Let Bernie Sanders worry about that."
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:39 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Vermont? Let Bernie Sanders worry about that."
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:39 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
From Putin's official statement [en.kremlin.ru] in response to the US sanctions:
posted by Westringia F. at 5:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Moreover, I invite all children of US diplomats accredited in Russia to the New Year and Christmas children's parties in the Kremlin.Because that's not intensely unsettling at all.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Just making it all perfectly clear that this isn't the old Atheist Soviet Union anymore. Uncle Vlad is building a whole different Evil Empire.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:48 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:48 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Moreover, I invite all children of US diplomats accredited in Russia to the New Year and Christmas children's parties in the Kremlin.
Entertainment will be provided by Anakin Skywalkich [fake?]
posted by drezdn at 5:51 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Entertainment will be provided by Anakin Skywalkich [fake?]
posted by drezdn at 5:51 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Putin isn't dumb; he's portraying himself as the reasonable one at a time where he's being painted as a threat.
posted by jaduncan at 5:54 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 5:54 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Moreover, I invite all children of US diplomats accredited in Russia to the New Year and Christmas children's parties in the Kremlin.
Where they will all receive free Hatchimals! Don't mind the antenna array.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Where they will all receive free Hatchimals! Don't mind the antenna array.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Wait. This is the setup for Clue.
posted by schmod at 6:00 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by schmod at 6:00 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jar Jar donald has provided all the entertainment that the russians need for awhile.
posted by futz at 6:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 6:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait. This is the setup for Clue.
And Trump is just a red herring.
posted by bibliowench at 6:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
And Trump is just a red herring.
posted by bibliowench at 6:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Orange, surely.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
So here is the question: If there actually is a provably Russian attack on infrastructure (let's say that there is some kind of significant power grid attack that really works, for instance, and that it is beyond a shadow of a doubt Russian in origin - something that isn't partisan and that isn't debatable) what happens? Trump is stanning for Putin, the Republicans think everything is Obama's fault and Putin, whatever you think of him, is obviously not interested in the wellbeing of the US. So what happens if there's a real, direct conflict with Russia while Trump is president? I'm not entirely sure that Putin and his buddies are going to be all "we're friends with the US now, call off the hackers", even if on the surface they like Trump. Trump is venal and cunning at best; Putin's awful but he's smart.
posted by Frowner at 6:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Putin also has so much domestic control and political capital that the action won't be seen as weak in the way that it might have been from, say, Medvediev. Given that, why not just work on US public opinion when there's influence over Trump to preserve? I'd strongly imagine that there's going to be a long honeymoon period where Putin does lots of superfically friendly things and praises Trump publicly. The Russians already effectively have Syrian control via Assad's need for military backing (with a Turkish footnote, admittedly), and have somewhat isolated Ukraine.
Why on earth, given that pretty much all of their more recent foreign policy bets are working out, would they do anything that didn't put Trump in a good light before they work out how serious he is or isn't about weakening NATO and stopping sanctions? Putin is almost at the point of having secured a vassal state and having annexed territory from another nation state without that much long term pain. He's not enough of an idiot to fuck that geopolitical prize up, even setting aside the new permissiveness around 'fighting terrorism' and the ability to thus further cement Russia's new power in the Middle East.
posted by jaduncan at 6:11 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why on earth, given that pretty much all of their more recent foreign policy bets are working out, would they do anything that didn't put Trump in a good light before they work out how serious he is or isn't about weakening NATO and stopping sanctions? Putin is almost at the point of having secured a vassal state and having annexed territory from another nation state without that much long term pain. He's not enough of an idiot to fuck that geopolitical prize up, even setting aside the new permissiveness around 'fighting terrorism' and the ability to thus further cement Russia's new power in the Middle East.
posted by jaduncan at 6:11 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Are We Doomed to Repeat 2016?
Did we fuck up this year? Absolutely. But if something is already in motion to counter the darkness of the last 12 months, it’s likely there was no celebration to kick it off, no Preview of What’s to Come reel played over and over on CNN. Time rarely grants us the luxury of recognizing when beautiful things start, only when they end. The first time you spoke to a future lover, for example, probably didn’t carry with it sweetness commensurate with the sadness or anger you felt when that relationship ended. Likewise, a series of events may have already been set in motion that will partially fix things, and we have no idea.posted by kirkaracha at 6:22 PM on December 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
...
Maybe what’s to come is just as good or better than what we’ve lost. Maybe it’s not. Maybe we’ve peaked. But to pretend that everything is terrible and nothing will be good ever again is simply not based on anything that’s ever happened before. As long as people are willing to wake up every morning and try to do a better job than they did the previous day, the future isn’t as bleak as the present feels.
If there is one thing that is most likely to undermine the Trump/Putin bromance, it's Iran, a genuine ally of Russia right now, but a major Big Bad for The Donald.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:23 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:23 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Putin isn't dumb; he's portraying himself as the reasonable one at a time where he's being painted as a threat.
Just as a reminder: Putin was a KGB foreign intelligence officer for 16 years. When he left the KGB, it took him 3 years to become the President of Russia.
Trump's daddy gave him lots of money and a real estate company.
So if the question "I wonder if Putin's the smart one who's playing Trump?" ever comes up, the answer is always yes.
And if you ever doubt his ruthlessness when you hear him pretending to be the civil one, go read about US diplomats who've been harassed by the FSB breaking into their house and killing their family dog, the diplomats who suddenly got ill from suspected date rape drugs but when they went to a clinic it mysteriously had its power cut so they had to be airlifted out of the country, or look at photos of Alexander Litvinenko dying in a hospital bed from polonium poising.
posted by bluecore at 6:24 PM on December 30, 2016 [60 favorites]
Just as a reminder: Putin was a KGB foreign intelligence officer for 16 years. When he left the KGB, it took him 3 years to become the President of Russia.
Trump's daddy gave him lots of money and a real estate company.
So if the question "I wonder if Putin's the smart one who's playing Trump?" ever comes up, the answer is always yes.
And if you ever doubt his ruthlessness when you hear him pretending to be the civil one, go read about US diplomats who've been harassed by the FSB breaking into their house and killing their family dog, the diplomats who suddenly got ill from suspected date rape drugs but when they went to a clinic it mysteriously had its power cut so they had to be airlifted out of the country, or look at photos of Alexander Litvinenko dying in a hospital bed from polonium poising.
posted by bluecore at 6:24 PM on December 30, 2016 [60 favorites]
Well, yeah. That actually underplays it though. He was a KGB officer who survived the fall of Communism and outplayed everyone else to become President at the end of the Yeltsin era. Really, that's two major changes of the form of government at a time where the rule of law was dubious to non-existent.
I doubt there's really anyone who doesn't think Putin is both smart and ruthless. If he wasn't, he'd be anonymous or dead.
posted by jaduncan at 6:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
I doubt there's really anyone who doesn't think Putin is both smart and ruthless. If he wasn't, he'd be anonymous or dead.
posted by jaduncan at 6:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Washington Post Russian hackers penetrated U.S. electricity grid through a utility in Vermont, U.S. officials say
Well, time to check out that battery bank for the solar.
posted by Talez at 6:30 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, time to check out that battery bank for the solar.
posted by Talez at 6:30 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ah, I see the confusion. "Being painted as" wasn't intended to imply he's not.
posted by jaduncan at 6:30 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by jaduncan at 6:30 PM on December 30, 2016
If there actually is a provably Russian attack on infrastructure ... what happens?
I see very little chance of an imminent attack on infrastructure in the next years. That's moving into the territory of actual war (done correctly during the winter, a wide-scale power grid attack could kill millions of people), and Putin's smart enough not to want to get into an actual war with the US. They're going to keep hacking, of course, but I don't lose sleep thinking that they're going to pull the trigger soon.
North Korea, on the other hand, might be capable of pulling off such an attack (with the help of some hired goons) and crazy enough to do so.
But to answer the question, if the Russians did actually carry out such an act, the NSA almost certainly has enough visibility to do attribution of the attack and I believe there's enough principled people there that would leak information (at least to Congress) on what happened if the administration attempted to ignore the truth. At that point, if Trump still refused to admit to and address the threat, I believe there'd be an impeachment and Pence would be framed as the heroic conservative to save the day. And then things would get very messy, indeed.
posted by Candleman at 6:32 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I see very little chance of an imminent attack on infrastructure in the next years. That's moving into the territory of actual war (done correctly during the winter, a wide-scale power grid attack could kill millions of people), and Putin's smart enough not to want to get into an actual war with the US. They're going to keep hacking, of course, but I don't lose sleep thinking that they're going to pull the trigger soon.
North Korea, on the other hand, might be capable of pulling off such an attack (with the help of some hired goons) and crazy enough to do so.
But to answer the question, if the Russians did actually carry out such an act, the NSA almost certainly has enough visibility to do attribution of the attack and I believe there's enough principled people there that would leak information (at least to Congress) on what happened if the administration attempted to ignore the truth. At that point, if Trump still refused to admit to and address the threat, I believe there'd be an impeachment and Pence would be framed as the heroic conservative to save the day. And then things would get very messy, indeed.
posted by Candleman at 6:32 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
As someone who considers himself a pretty hardcore lefty, let me just say that I don't find the aggrandizement of a neo-fascist Russia all that compatible with my own ideological goals, as regards America or frankly anything at all
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:44 PM on December 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Awful crap out of Wisconsin: Under significant pressure from the state Dept. of Justice, the Group Insurance Board ETF just voted 7-2 to reinstate the transgender health care exclusion for state insurance coverage.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:53 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:53 PM on December 30, 2016
Burlington Electric Department: We detected the malware in a single Burlington Electric Department laptop not connected to our organization’s grid systems. Still no laughing matter, given the Ukraine power disruptions, but ... this story is not yet well developed.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
So what happens if there's a real, direct conflict with Russia while Trump is president?
I imagine it would be profoundly terrifying on a national, state, global, and interpersonal level. Also, there will be tweets.
Dear god, can we stop with the convoluted and increasingly annoying ways to avoid using the name Trump?
No. Although I would agree to either _rump, or if you're not into the whole brevity thing, Turdfungus.
posted by petebest at 6:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I imagine it would be profoundly terrifying on a national, state, global, and interpersonal level. Also, there will be tweets.
Dear god, can we stop with the convoluted and increasingly annoying ways to avoid using the name Trump?
No. Although I would agree to either _rump, or if you're not into the whole brevity thing, Turdfungus.
posted by petebest at 6:57 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I still prefer Donnie Bumblefuck.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:01 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:01 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
i'm kinda partial to "Hair Furor"
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:02 PM on December 30, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:02 PM on December 30, 2016 [20 favorites]
Wait. This is the setup for Clue.
Mr. Orange
posted by EarBucket at 7:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mr. Orange
posted by EarBucket at 7:03 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
can we stop with the convoluted and increasingly annoying ways to avoid using the name Trump?
You can have my "Trumpski" when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. *smileicon*
posted by octobersurprise at 7:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can have my "Trumpski" when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. *smileicon*
posted by octobersurprise at 7:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mr Orange, with the Twitter, in the Oval Office.
posted by ian1977 at 7:05 PM on December 30, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 7:05 PM on December 30, 2016 [27 favorites]
The fascinating part about a possible US Russia "friendship", as much as Putin wants to style it as such, would be how dramatically it shifts power structures around the world. I can't help but think Iran falls off Trump's naughty list if Putin wants them to by proposing some deal that makes Trump look like peace-making diplomat and gives Iran something they want, less US interference mostly I'd suppose. The problem with that is Israel, who might be placated by Trump ignore the Palestinians and giving Israel almost an absolutely free hand to do what they want there as long as Iran keeps their nose out of the business too.
China, I would assume, gets nervous and makes stronger ties in their sphere of influence, big trade deals with Japan and Korea, perhaps, to make up for the seeming collapse of the TPP, and expanding their presence in the southern hemisphere, with more contact and deals with African and South American countries. Japan might start thinking about there own self defense force more seriously including nukes if the US seems lukewarm in their support. Taiwan might be tempted to push too hard against mainland rule and either find a new government or some more serious threats against them. How Russia and the US handle that is a bit of a mystery if Trump can't find some security, and spots for his hotels, with China.
Ukraine and the rest of the important pieces of the old Soviet Union likely fall back into Russian influence or direct control. Turkey is leaning towards Russia now, and Trump has some interests in India that could make them more favored here, leaving Pakistan potentially very angry, and they're the country with nukes I'm most concerned about.
North Korea might settle for being largely set aside from being a major focus, though they surely won't take to being ignored should Trump not find them interesting enough. The instability in South Korea and Trump's lack of strong interest in the country makes their status seem a little uncertain right now.
The parts of Europe that turn sharply to the right should have no problem finding common interest with Putin, while those that don't make that turn could be in a really tough spot with a, at best, disfunctional EU, and at worse, no EU at all. Northern Europe might end up banding together just to maintain some reasonable strength against the collapsing alliances.
Or none of that might happen, who knows? A US Russia semi-partnership would be jarring and a signal that all the old values the US stood for, or claimed to, are now no longer of any importance and it's every country for themselves, making "deals" out of self interest alone. Seems like it'll be a really shitty time to be a weak or vulnerable nation, I mean even more than usual.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:06 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
China, I would assume, gets nervous and makes stronger ties in their sphere of influence, big trade deals with Japan and Korea, perhaps, to make up for the seeming collapse of the TPP, and expanding their presence in the southern hemisphere, with more contact and deals with African and South American countries. Japan might start thinking about there own self defense force more seriously including nukes if the US seems lukewarm in their support. Taiwan might be tempted to push too hard against mainland rule and either find a new government or some more serious threats against them. How Russia and the US handle that is a bit of a mystery if Trump can't find some security, and spots for his hotels, with China.
Ukraine and the rest of the important pieces of the old Soviet Union likely fall back into Russian influence or direct control. Turkey is leaning towards Russia now, and Trump has some interests in India that could make them more favored here, leaving Pakistan potentially very angry, and they're the country with nukes I'm most concerned about.
North Korea might settle for being largely set aside from being a major focus, though they surely won't take to being ignored should Trump not find them interesting enough. The instability in South Korea and Trump's lack of strong interest in the country makes their status seem a little uncertain right now.
The parts of Europe that turn sharply to the right should have no problem finding common interest with Putin, while those that don't make that turn could be in a really tough spot with a, at best, disfunctional EU, and at worse, no EU at all. Northern Europe might end up banding together just to maintain some reasonable strength against the collapsing alliances.
Or none of that might happen, who knows? A US Russia semi-partnership would be jarring and a signal that all the old values the US stood for, or claimed to, are now no longer of any importance and it's every country for themselves, making "deals" out of self interest alone. Seems like it'll be a really shitty time to be a weak or vulnerable nation, I mean even more than usual.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:06 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Facebook temporarily bans author after he calls Trump fans 'nasty fascistic lot'
A journalist was temporarily banned from Facebook after a post in which he called Trump supporters “a nasty fascistic lot”, in the latest example of the social media platform’s censorship of journalists.
Facebook “reviewed and restored” the post by Kevin Sessums after being contacted by the Guardian and dropped the posting ban.
“We’re very sorry about this mistake,” a spokesman said. “The post was removed in error and restored as soon as we were able to investigate. Our team processes millions of reports each week, and we sometimes get things wrong.”
posted by futz at 7:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
A journalist was temporarily banned from Facebook after a post in which he called Trump supporters “a nasty fascistic lot”, in the latest example of the social media platform’s censorship of journalists.
Facebook “reviewed and restored” the post by Kevin Sessums after being contacted by the Guardian and dropped the posting ban.
“We’re very sorry about this mistake,” a spokesman said. “The post was removed in error and restored as soon as we were able to investigate. Our team processes millions of reports each week, and we sometimes get things wrong.”
posted by futz at 7:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
One of my friends went to Facebook jail for 24 hours last week as well for calling someone a racist who had used a slur against a person of color.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe this has been pointed to in a previous thread, but I only now found it: As Liberal Illusions Fade, Trump’s Chance of Success Starts To Come Into Focus.
If you can get through it without punching your computer monitor, it is perhaps useful as a glimpse into the mindset of the right.
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:25 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you can get through it without punching your computer monitor, it is perhaps useful as a glimpse into the mindset of the right.
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:25 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The fascinating part about a possible US Russia "friendship", as much as Putin wants to style it as such, would be how dramatically it shifts power structures around the world....A US Russia semi-partnership would be jarring and a signal that all the old values the US stood for, or claimed to, are now no longer of any importance and it's every country for themselves, making "deals" out of self interest alone.
Yes.
A US/Russia alliance is kind of a painfully obvious idea based on the most reductive and ahistorical view of the current geopolitical context possible. We have three very large, nuclear-capable nation states with at least minimally plausible claims to global power status: the US, Russia and China.
Given that Russia and China are on the same continent, in a 21st Century Risk board analysis the question becomes which of them will get it together to ally with the the US against the other more quickly?
I don't want to live on Risk board.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:30 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes.
A US/Russia alliance is kind of a painfully obvious idea based on the most reductive and ahistorical view of the current geopolitical context possible. We have three very large, nuclear-capable nation states with at least minimally plausible claims to global power status: the US, Russia and China.
Given that Russia and China are on the same continent, in a 21st Century Risk board analysis the question becomes which of them will get it together to ally with the the US against the other more quickly?
I don't want to live on Risk board.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:30 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
The pressthink article oneswellfoop linked to is really good. A thoughtful survey of the befuckdedness of the press.
Pew Research Center: “Only about two-in-ten Americans (22%) trust the information they get from local news organizations a lot, whether online or offline, and 18% say the same of national organizations.”
Yet for the impassioned defense of a free press and the craft of journalism, the elephant in the room is that the corporate news media has been failing at educating the public for decades. What changed recently is people don't have to go to them anymore. The utter catastrophe made of the role of the press in the Dubz era wasn't a lesson learned. And now it's too late.
What's the real currency of the news? Does NBC or CNN have any of it? Looks like 18%.
posted by petebest at 7:38 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pew Research Center: “Only about two-in-ten Americans (22%) trust the information they get from local news organizations a lot, whether online or offline, and 18% say the same of national organizations.”
Yet for the impassioned defense of a free press and the craft of journalism, the elephant in the room is that the corporate news media has been failing at educating the public for decades. What changed recently is people don't have to go to them anymore. The utter catastrophe made of the role of the press in the Dubz era wasn't a lesson learned. And now it's too late.
What's the real currency of the news? Does NBC or CNN have any of it? Looks like 18%.
posted by petebest at 7:38 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
As Liberal Illusions Fade, Trump’s Chance of Success Starts To Come Into Focus.
JFC - I'm going to openly invoke an appeal to Jesus Fucking Christ because Jesus Christ was killed for standing up to this shit, but I hope that (zombie) Jesus Fucking Christ will zombify (by biting and killing) these pieces of shit.
I understand there are people who get off on generating "liberal tears" and there are people who are "hey, I can make myself bigger and get more money/fame/famemoney)" but...
McMullin is someone who might be able to get the Republicans straightened out, but the Repubs are all so mired by their source-of-funds.
Billionair Democrats willing to "reform" GOP politics by picking and backing decentpeople republican candidates, even if they oppose traditional Democratic platforms?
posted by porpoise at 7:45 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
JFC - I'm going to openly invoke an appeal to Jesus Fucking Christ because Jesus Christ was killed for standing up to this shit, but I hope that (zombie) Jesus Fucking Christ will zombify (by biting and killing) these pieces of shit.
I understand there are people who get off on generating "liberal tears" and there are people who are "hey, I can make myself bigger and get more money/fame/famemoney)" but...
McMullin is someone who might be able to get the Republicans straightened out, but the Repubs are all so mired by their source-of-funds.
Billionair Democrats willing to "reform" GOP politics by picking and backing decent
posted by porpoise at 7:45 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you can get through it without punching your computer monitor
Search forward for "Franklin" to reach a (perhaps temporary) respite from the sadistic low-information crowing.
posted by Coventry at 7:46 PM on December 30, 2016
Search forward for "Franklin" to reach a (perhaps temporary) respite from the sadistic low-information crowing.
posted by Coventry at 7:46 PM on December 30, 2016
Just want to point out that this "instability" isn't really instability--the institutions have thus far been robust enough to handle this current presidential impeachment. It's quite unlikely to turn into a failed state.
No, certainly not, it's just in a flux period and with the changes in the US and US relations with China and possibly Japan, and an unknown attitude towards North Korea, it's difficult to say where things will go from here right now. If there is any significant internal power struggles in the South in the wake of the impeachment, that too could make things more difficult to forecast and lead to some more serious problems, but likely nothing quite so dire as even approaching failed state status with their economy and growing cultural significance. It's more how they might be affected by outside forces against their will rather than strictly worries over internal disputes, though the latter can have a bad effect on the impacts of the former.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:46 PM on December 30, 2016
No, certainly not, it's just in a flux period and with the changes in the US and US relations with China and possibly Japan, and an unknown attitude towards North Korea, it's difficult to say where things will go from here right now. If there is any significant internal power struggles in the South in the wake of the impeachment, that too could make things more difficult to forecast and lead to some more serious problems, but likely nothing quite so dire as even approaching failed state status with their economy and growing cultural significance. It's more how they might be affected by outside forces against their will rather than strictly worries over internal disputes, though the latter can have a bad effect on the impacts of the former.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:46 PM on December 30, 2016
StrawberryPie, I think there's not much to learn there. What did you get from it? Seems disingenuous for Conrad Black to be praising Trump for standing up to Wall St. Also, if the plan is to run the establishment out on a rail, someone needs to explain how Trump's going to work around his cabinet.
posted by Coventry at 7:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 7:58 PM on December 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess my biggest concern though is the possibility of a joint Russia/US force fighting terrorism, where any perceived threat or attack is met by overwhelming disproportionate force, more along the lines of previous Russian engagements in Chechnya, but with US firepower adding to the tally. With a commander in chief who seems completely at ease with massive uses of force against those he doesn't see as being "like us", the possibility of that sort of incursion seems more likely and could end up making Trump a popular figure at home viewed through a foreign policy perspective, as many voters here seem like they'd be awfully sympathetic to that sort of response given the levels of racism and religious hate surrounding Muslims.
In the short term, a quasi-alliance with Russia and those sorts of potential actions could give a lot of people in the US a feeling of increased security and make it seem like "bold and decisive" action on the part of Trump, since, again, he'd be breaking all norms and putting the US on an uncertain path going forward at the cost of almost certain immoral activities in the present. A match of those isolationist leanings many feel, while still maintaining some clear global presence with new allies. It should need not be said that it would also be a disaster in many other ways, but those concerns don't seem to be ones Trump will lose any sleep over, even if they could considerably harm US interests and world stability in the longer term.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:13 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
In the short term, a quasi-alliance with Russia and those sorts of potential actions could give a lot of people in the US a feeling of increased security and make it seem like "bold and decisive" action on the part of Trump, since, again, he'd be breaking all norms and putting the US on an uncertain path going forward at the cost of almost certain immoral activities in the present. A match of those isolationist leanings many feel, while still maintaining some clear global presence with new allies. It should need not be said that it would also be a disaster in many other ways, but those concerns don't seem to be ones Trump will lose any sleep over, even if they could considerably harm US interests and world stability in the longer term.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:13 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Anyone who listens to Conrad Black, convicted fraud artist, gets what they deserve.
posted by Yowser at 8:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Yowser at 8:16 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Coventry, for many here, it may not have much new — sorry if it's old hat. For me, it gathered into one place a list of things that people like the author nonchalantly seem to consider self-evident weaknesses of "liberal" views [*] while presenting an argument for the supposed benefits of Trump's approach. I find things like this useful to study and deconstruct, to know what I'm up against. (If there are better articulations of these things somewhere, please let me know.)
[1] Of course, from my point of view, these are not weaknesses but the goals that decent humans should aspire to.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:18 PM on December 30, 2016
[1] Of course, from my point of view, these are not weaknesses but the goals that decent humans should aspire to.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:18 PM on December 30, 2016
That essay is so over-the-top in its praise for Trump that it may have an intended audience of 1: Trump himself. Black may be buttering him up to secure a place at the trough.
posted by Coventry at 8:20 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 8:20 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
if the Russians did actually carry out such an act, the NSA almost certainly has enough visibility to do attribution of the attack and I believe there's enough principled people there that would leak information (at least to Congress) on what happened if the administration attempted to ignore the truth.
Given that there are a bunch of so-called 'leftists' who still insist we don't have enough evidence that Russia was behind the DNC hack (because, when a country attacks your elections using the exact same playbook it used in other countries, the first thing you do is reveal your spies), I don't think that the NSA's claims would get much traction.
Or, hey, maybe it would. Unless the attack also found some juicy details about the techs who watched porn during their breaks, in which case nothing else will matter.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 8:33 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Given that there are a bunch of so-called 'leftists' who still insist we don't have enough evidence that Russia was behind the DNC hack (because, when a country attacks your elections using the exact same playbook it used in other countries, the first thing you do is reveal your spies), I don't think that the NSA's claims would get much traction.
Or, hey, maybe it would. Unless the attack also found some juicy details about the techs who watched porn during their breaks, in which case nothing else will matter.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 8:33 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
What Would Change Your Mind About President Trump? An exercise for his supporters and critics.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:55 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
We have three very large, nuclear-capable nation states with at least minimally plausible claims to global power status: the US, Russia and China.
The splitting up of the world into three great super-states was an event which could be and indeed was foreseen before the middle of the twentieth century. With the absorption of Europe by Russia and of the British Empire by the United States, two of the three existing powers, Eurasia and Oceania, were already effectively in being. The third, Eastasia, only emerged as a distinct unit after another decade of confused fighting.posted by kirkaracha at 9:14 PM on December 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
...
In one combination or another, these three super-states are permanently at war, and have been so for the past twenty-five years. War, however, is no longer the desperate, annihilating struggle that it was in the early decades of the twentieth century. It is a warfare of limited aims between combatants who are unable to destroy one another, have no material cause for fighting and are not divided by any genuine ideological difference.
...
To understand the nature of the present war — for in spite of the regrouping which occurs every few years, it is always the same war — one must realize in the first place that it is impossible for it to be decisive. None of the three super-states could be definitively conquered even by the other two in combination. They are too evenly matched, and their natural defences are too formidable.
...
The primary aim of modern warfare (in accordance with the principles of DOUBLETHINK, this aim is simultaneously recognized and not recognized by the directing brains of the Inner Party) is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living.
I guess my biggest concern though is the possibility of a joint Russia/US force fighting terrorism, where any perceived threat or attack is met by overwhelming disproportionate force, more along the lines of previous Russian engagements in Chechnya, but with US firepower adding to the tally.
Mine is just that Russia gets to effectively sabre rattle a lot more, because it's known that the US isn't going to back people up. Syria showed an awful lot of people that it was more effective to have the Russians onside than the US, and if Russia starts being able to push around, say, Georgia and Ukraine much more openly, the value of being somewhat US aligned goes down again. It doesn't need to be an explicit alliance for Russia to gain a lot of power.
posted by jaduncan at 9:33 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mine is just that Russia gets to effectively sabre rattle a lot more, because it's known that the US isn't going to back people up. Syria showed an awful lot of people that it was more effective to have the Russians onside than the US, and if Russia starts being able to push around, say, Georgia and Ukraine much more openly, the value of being somewhat US aligned goes down again. It doesn't need to be an explicit alliance for Russia to gain a lot of power.
posted by jaduncan at 9:33 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
From 2013: Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow - if so, will he become my new best friend?
posted by monospace at 9:37 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by monospace at 9:37 PM on December 30, 2016
In all this talk of intelligence assessments, it might be beneficial to remember The Stovepipe.
So far as I know, there is no such thing in use by the Obama administration.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:40 PM on December 30, 2016
So far as I know, there is no such thing in use by the Obama administration.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:40 PM on December 30, 2016
If anyone wants a little levity, Josh Marshall (TPM) just made a tweet in which he appears to have inadvertently included a pornhub link, and the resulting Friday night twitter antics from Anil Dash/Brandy Jensen/meakoopa/Brianna Wu et al cracking jokes about it and the dangers of CTRL+V has made my night.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:41 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 9:41 PM on December 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Today it would be, "We have always been at war with Eurasia."
Let's get this straight. Do you seriously think that a lame duck President Obama is going to declare war against Russia? He's literally had 8 years to declare war, and he hasn't.
posted by FJT at 9:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let's get this straight. Do you seriously think that a lame duck President Obama is going to declare war against Russia? He's literally had 8 years to declare war, and he hasn't.
posted by FJT at 9:47 PM on December 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why does that twitter link say 2008? Like I said earlier I am a twit noob.
posted by futz at 9:48 PM on December 30, 2016
posted by futz at 9:48 PM on December 30, 2016
If anyone wants a little levity, Josh Marshall (TPM) just made a tweet in which he appears to have inadvertently included a pornhub link, and the resulting Friday night twitter antics from Anil Dash/Brandy Jensen/meakoopa/Brianna Wu et al cracking jokes about it and the dangers of CTRL+V has made my night.
Cunnilingus is "targeting close associates", in a way
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:48 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why does that twitter link say 2008?
Good question, considering most of the replies are from a few minutes ago. I dunno.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:56 PM on December 30, 2016
Good question, considering most of the replies are from a few minutes ago. I dunno.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:56 PM on December 30, 2016
Twitter now lets you retweet your own tweets. Anil just retweeted one of his 2008 tweets tonight because Ctrl V tragedies are just that common. Note that all the replies are from tonight, too. No time lords are trolling Josh Marshall that we know of.
(I can't believe this is what got me to comment in a politics thread again. *sigh*)
posted by maudlin at 10:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
(I can't believe this is what got me to comment in a politics thread again. *sigh*)
posted by maudlin at 10:04 PM on December 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh my god, this just reaffirms my decision not to ever, ever, ever use twitter and to never stay logged in to any social media while doing other things.
posted by Justinian at 10:07 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:07 PM on December 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
2 relevant WaPo articles today – don't think they've been mentioned yet:
• Trump refuses to face reality about Russia
• The Trump camp’s spin on Russian interference is falling apart
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
• Trump refuses to face reality about Russia
• The Trump camp’s spin on Russian interference is falling apart
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:08 PM on December 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Those who write attempts to "analyze" Trump make the error of trying to find sense and meaning where none exists.
But Twitter's limit of 140 characters make it the perfect medium for nonsense and meaninglessness.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:13 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
But Twitter's limit of 140 characters make it the perfect medium for nonsense and meaninglessness.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:13 PM on December 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
2 relevant WaPo articles today – don't think they've been mentioned yet:
• Trump refuses to face reality about Russia
• The Trump camp’s spin on Russian interference is falling apart
Those two headlines jumped out to me as an illustration of effective Trump coverage: headline one speaks to his breaking with reality and norms, and that blow doesn't really land because everyone knows it and opinion is kind of settled on that along party lines, unfortunately. Headline 2, though, paints him as weak, losing control, and worst of all for his image a politician.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
• Trump refuses to face reality about Russia
• The Trump camp’s spin on Russian interference is falling apart
Those two headlines jumped out to me as an illustration of effective Trump coverage: headline one speaks to his breaking with reality and norms, and that blow doesn't really land because everyone knows it and opinion is kind of settled on that along party lines, unfortunately. Headline 2, though, paints him as weak, losing control, and worst of all for his image a politician.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:29 PM on December 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
> Burlington Electric Department: We detected the malware in a single Burlington Electric Department laptop not connected to our organization’s grid systems.
Marcy Wheeler: Your Weekly Alarming Anonymous Friday Night WaPo Dump: Vermont Electrical Grid Edition
Marcy Wheeler: Your Weekly Alarming Anonymous Friday Night WaPo Dump: Vermont Electrical Grid Edition
Of course, by the time this report was amended to make it clear the malware was not in the grid at all, the story itself had gotten picked up by other outlets, even in spite of the many many many security professionals mocking the report as soon as it came out.posted by tonycpsu at 10:37 PM on December 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
So now a slew of people are convinced that Russia has hacked (a word that has lost all meaning in the last month) our electrical grid — I’ve even seen some people assuming this occurred this week! — even though no actual analysis of what is going on has happened yet.
Here’s the thing. Some of these security professionals are the same ones who’ve been saying for months that the DNC hack can be reliably attributed to the Russian state. I mostly agree (though I’ve got some lingering doubts). And while those of us who follow this closely can distinguish the two different kind of analyses, the general public will not. And — having been alarmed off a premature report here that was not sufficiently researched before publicized — they will be utterly justified in believing the government is making baseless claims to generate fear among the public.
As I said, I mostly agree with reports attributing the DNC hack to the Russians. But seeing inflammatory shit like this peddled anonymously to the press makes me far more inclined to believe the government is blowing smoke.
this just reaffirms my decision not to ever, ever, ever use twitter and to never stay logged in to any social media while doing other things.
TIL that JCPL also means Justinian's Current Pornography Level.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:46 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
TIL that JCPL also means Justinian's Current Pornography Level.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:46 PM on December 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
No matter how bad the next 4 years get at least I'll vaporize in the nuclear fireball knowing I never tweeted hardcore lesbian pornography at my 150k followers, among whom are many media and journalistic insiders. So there's that.
posted by Justinian at 11:54 PM on December 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:54 PM on December 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
After seeing Conrad Black's opinion essay, I only wonder why the New York Sun hasn't given Bernie Madoff a regular column (or has some other fine journalistic institution beaten them to it?).
And as for the "Russians hack the power grid" story, it only proves one of the saddest facts of the post-fact era. It is pretty much impossible to use Fake News for good.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:20 AM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
And as for the "Russians hack the power grid" story, it only proves one of the saddest facts of the post-fact era. It is pretty much impossible to use Fake News for good.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:20 AM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kansas City Shuffles everywhere.
posted by christopherious at 1:36 AM on December 31, 2016
posted by christopherious at 1:36 AM on December 31, 2016
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Coventry, patience is exhausted here; you were asked to cut out the digging in, yet continue with what has now become weird troll-y "I'm convinced but Orwell would think X." Take a day off, and in the future, dial it way back. You have nearly twice the comments of anyone else, and need to start practicing some serious restraint, or bypass these threads entirely.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:15 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 3:15 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
What Would Change Your Mind About President Trump? An exercise for his supporters and critics.
The showstopper for me is the accusation that Donald Trump raped a 13 year old girl, so having the facts established by a jury would go a long way, and I could then process all the self-enrichment, conflicts of interest, and policy issues.
posted by mikelieman at 3:56 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
The showstopper for me is the accusation that Donald Trump raped a 13 year old girl, so having the facts established by a jury would go a long way, and I could then process all the self-enrichment, conflicts of interest, and policy issues.
posted by mikelieman at 3:56 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
What Would Change Your Mind About President Trump? An exercise for his supporters and critics.
The author lauds or some reasonable goal posts. I'm afraid I'm of the "the only thing that would change my mind is if he was a completely different person than Donald Trump" camp. There is nothing he can do that will change my mind.
Indeed in light of the last eight years of total republican opposition to even policies they agree with if Obama proposed them, I'm in favor of mindlessly opposing absolutely everything Trump does. I will try not to di that, but I worry that agreeing with him even a little grants him too much legitimacy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:10 AM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
The author lauds or some reasonable goal posts. I'm afraid I'm of the "the only thing that would change my mind is if he was a completely different person than Donald Trump" camp. There is nothing he can do that will change my mind.
Indeed in light of the last eight years of total republican opposition to even policies they agree with if Obama proposed them, I'm in favor of mindlessly opposing absolutely everything Trump does. I will try not to di that, but I worry that agreeing with him even a little grants him too much legitimacy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:10 AM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
Happy New Year to all, including to my many enemies and those who have fought me and lost so badly they just don't know what to do. Love!
ye gods
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:21 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
Happy New Year to all, including to my many enemies and those who have fought me and lost so badly they just don't know what to do. Love!
ye gods
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:21 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
I honestly had some hope he was capable of just a straight "Happy New Year."
Just to get it out of the way now, someone will say something rediculous on January 1 and the whole internet will go "guess 2017 is fucked too." As awful as 2016 was, and it was damn awful, 2017 scares me. It seems like we talk about enemies more than we used to, and at least we used to think that was a bad thing:
posted by zachlipton at 5:28 AM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
Just to get it out of the way now, someone will say something rediculous on January 1 and the whole internet will go "guess 2017 is fucked too." As awful as 2016 was, and it was damn awful, 2017 scares me. It seems like we talk about enemies more than we used to, and at least we used to think that was a bad thing:
JOSH--The West Wing, S1E8, "Enemies"
Mr. President?
BARTLET
[looks back] Yeah?
JOSH
We talk about enemies more than we used to.
BARTLET
What?
JOSH
We talk about enemies more than we used to... I wanted to mention that.
BARTLET
Yeah.
JOSH
Good night, Mr. President.
BARTLET
Good night.
posted by zachlipton at 5:28 AM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
Truly this is unpresidented.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:44 AM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:44 AM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
That Atlantic "What Would Change Your Mind About Trump" article is really good. A more succinct summary of the horrible things he implied he'd do than the various lists that went around before the election. And if he does none of them, I too will submit to an "I told you so" from his supporters.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:50 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:50 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
One thing Trump could do that would help me feel better about him is nominate Merrick Garland to SCOTUS. I could see him doing it to a) throw the rest of us a bone; b) perform respect for the Office of the President and c) flip Mitch McConnell the bird, especially if one of his cabinet picks fails to get approval.
posted by carmicha at 6:32 AM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 6:32 AM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
No matter how bad the next 4 years get at least I'll vaporize in the nuclear fireball knowing I never tweeted hardcore lesbian pornography at my 150k followers, among whom are many media and journalistic insiders. So there's that.
Not lesbian porn, no. Just the usual stream of clown bestiality we get from you. You are Carl Paladino AICMFP?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:33 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not lesbian porn, no. Just the usual stream of clown bestiality we get from you. You are Carl Paladino AICMFP?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:33 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
I mean, nominating Garland or apologizing for his past misconduct and offensiveness would definitely change my mind, but I don't see any chance in hell of that stuff happening.
But his supporters acknowledge that Trump is petty and offensive, they just defend him with arguments along the lines of "he doesn't really MEAN it." So I guess if he proves, by not doing any of the horrible things he implied he would do, that he didn't mean it... then he proves them right. I hope they are right. I hope he was just trolling.
One thing I don't see in that article though is any mention of healthcare. If Trump doesn't remove health insurance coverage from millions of Americans (even if he does repeal Obamacare, but replaces it with something that results in just as many people having meaningful coverage), I will be pleasantly surprised, and will admit I was wrong about him.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:50 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
But his supporters acknowledge that Trump is petty and offensive, they just defend him with arguments along the lines of "he doesn't really MEAN it." So I guess if he proves, by not doing any of the horrible things he implied he would do, that he didn't mean it... then he proves them right. I hope they are right. I hope he was just trolling.
One thing I don't see in that article though is any mention of healthcare. If Trump doesn't remove health insurance coverage from millions of Americans (even if he does repeal Obamacare, but replaces it with something that results in just as many people having meaningful coverage), I will be pleasantly surprised, and will admit I was wrong about him.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:50 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
I could see him doing it to a) throw the rest of us a bone; b) perform respect for the Office of the President and c) flip Mitch McConnell the bird
Not only is there no way in hell this is going to happen, we have zero evidence that trump is willing to do (a) OR (b). Honestly I'd be surprised if he even remembers who Garland is at this point; the man has the attention span of a gnat. If it weren't for all the opportunist hyenas waiting for their Handmaid's Tale SCJ, the best route to a Garland nomination--or that of anyone remotely palatable--would be trump simply forgetting he's supposed to nominate someone while he's busy tweeting up foreign policy disasters.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:57 AM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
Not only is there no way in hell this is going to happen, we have zero evidence that trump is willing to do (a) OR (b). Honestly I'd be surprised if he even remembers who Garland is at this point; the man has the attention span of a gnat. If it weren't for all the opportunist hyenas waiting for their Handmaid's Tale SCJ, the best route to a Garland nomination--or that of anyone remotely palatable--would be trump simply forgetting he's supposed to nominate someone while he's busy tweeting up foreign policy disasters.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:57 AM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
I can't see Trump apologizing for anything since he clearly doesn't believe he's ever done anything wrong or made a mistake or anything like that, but I can see him nominating Garland becuase it's the kind of slick maneuver that would come across as genius dealmaking. And also, he doesn't really know anyone else, so any nomination he makes will be the suggestion of someone he doesn't particularly like or trust, and for the petulant grudge-holding manchild a poke in the eye to Mitch McConnell and co. would probably look very attractive at this point.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:25 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:25 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
One thing Trump could do that would help me feel better about him is nominate Merrick Garland to SCOTUS.
I chortled really loud when I read this.
Trump doesn't nominate pansy LOSERS who were nominated by secret muslims.
posted by dis_integration at 7:27 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I chortled really loud when I read this.
Trump doesn't nominate pansy LOSERS who were nominated by secret muslims.
posted by dis_integration at 7:27 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean it wasn't really all that hardcore, unless seeing a vagina is considered hardcore
It was pretty tepid cunnilingus really
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:28 AM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was pretty tepid cunnilingus really
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:28 AM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm just really fucking pissed off by this narrative the deplorables are pushing, especially on Twitter, that suddenly the left has become a bunch of neo-cons who can't wait to go to war with Russia
I'm actually seeing this on social media from lefty more-progressive-than-you types - the general attitude that "see look everyone is scared that Trump is going to antagonize a bunch of foreign powers but LOOK AT WHAT OBAMA AND THE ESTABLISHMENT IS DOING. THEY CLEARLY WANT WAR." Their chosen narrative is that establishment democrats are willing to do anything to cover for the fact that Clinton = bad candidate, even if it means living out some version of Wag the Dog and making up a conflict. What the fuck can you even say to them?
posted by windbox at 7:30 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm actually seeing this on social media from lefty more-progressive-than-you types - the general attitude that "see look everyone is scared that Trump is going to antagonize a bunch of foreign powers but LOOK AT WHAT OBAMA AND THE ESTABLISHMENT IS DOING. THEY CLEARLY WANT WAR." Their chosen narrative is that establishment democrats are willing to do anything to cover for the fact that Clinton = bad candidate, even if it means living out some version of Wag the Dog and making up a conflict. What the fuck can you even say to them?
posted by windbox at 7:30 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
this idea that donald would nominate garland is insane and seems to be another thought in the vein of the bargaining stage of grief.
everything he has done as president elect has been terrible and will only get more terrible. he has tested the bounds of legality, normalcy, and decency and received no formidable resistance other than the wailing of liberal tears. as terrible as 2016 has been, the coming year will most certainly be worse.
posted by localhuman at 7:32 AM on December 31, 2016 [34 favorites]
everything he has done as president elect has been terrible and will only get more terrible. he has tested the bounds of legality, normalcy, and decency and received no formidable resistance other than the wailing of liberal tears. as terrible as 2016 has been, the coming year will most certainly be worse.
posted by localhuman at 7:32 AM on December 31, 2016 [34 favorites]
There is no way on earth that Trump would nominate Garland. Remember he has his list of all the best! candidates of deplorables that he was always invoking?
Given how his other choices have gone, I expect Trump to nominate someone who's currently in prison for the Supreme Court.
posted by TwoStride at 7:33 AM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
Given how his other choices have gone, I expect Trump to nominate someone who's currently in prison for the Supreme Court.
posted by TwoStride at 7:33 AM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm in favor of mindlessly opposing absolutely everything Trump does. I will try not to di that, but I worry that agreeing with him even a little grants him too much legitimacy.
Spelling his name correctly grants him too much legitimacy. That's where I'm at. Seriously, his campaign was a bundle of lit sticks of dynamite tape into a racist rapey shape with a hand-drawn, misspelled "for Presadent" sign taped to it.
He gave no serious policy information, used every feee minute of airtime to troll, answered no questions, gave no press conferences, respected none of the norms like taxes and heath reports, much less to deign to support the outcome of the vote. Oh yeah and Russia and his bootlickers at the FBI did all they could and threw it to him. And then no audit much less a recount.
We're three weeks out from a 5 minute Nyaa Nyaa speech, there's no one in charge, 4,000 positions unfilled, illegal purges underway in many departments, his cabinet is the all-time most disgusting assortment of unqualified 1%er contract-killer toadies, he hasn't the slightest clue what he's doing and any actions we take to lend him legitimacy will be used to gaslight the world who are legitimately wondering what the fuck are we doing?!
"America! Hey! You got a problem and you'd better deal with it - GeeDub was bad enough, this time we're fucking serious, y'all need help."
What would change my mind?? His accounting to his existing crimes during the day 1 resignation speech. And well-written though it was, the Atlantic is done for me (and should be for everyone) because of these handwringy milquetoast laundry-list concern articles that do nothing more that normalize this aberration. It *should* be RED ALERT brace for impact - what could possibly go right?
posted by petebest at 7:34 AM on December 31, 2016 [54 favorites]
Spelling his name correctly grants him too much legitimacy. That's where I'm at. Seriously, his campaign was a bundle of lit sticks of dynamite tape into a racist rapey shape with a hand-drawn, misspelled "for Presadent" sign taped to it.
He gave no serious policy information, used every feee minute of airtime to troll, answered no questions, gave no press conferences, respected none of the norms like taxes and heath reports, much less to deign to support the outcome of the vote. Oh yeah and Russia and his bootlickers at the FBI did all they could and threw it to him. And then no audit much less a recount.
We're three weeks out from a 5 minute Nyaa Nyaa speech, there's no one in charge, 4,000 positions unfilled, illegal purges underway in many departments, his cabinet is the all-time most disgusting assortment of unqualified 1%er contract-killer toadies, he hasn't the slightest clue what he's doing and any actions we take to lend him legitimacy will be used to gaslight the world who are legitimately wondering what the fuck are we doing?!
"America! Hey! You got a problem and you'd better deal with it - GeeDub was bad enough, this time we're fucking serious, y'all need help."
What would change my mind?? His accounting to his existing crimes during the day 1 resignation speech. And well-written though it was, the Atlantic is done for me (and should be for everyone) because of these handwringy milquetoast laundry-list concern articles that do nothing more that normalize this aberration. It *should* be RED ALERT brace for impact - what could possibly go right?
posted by petebest at 7:34 AM on December 31, 2016 [54 favorites]
another coffee would be great, yeah, thank you. And could you hurry?
/jitter
posted by petebest at 7:43 AM on December 31, 2016
/jitter
posted by petebest at 7:43 AM on December 31, 2016
man at some point this all got funny again.
it reminds me a bit of On the Beach; you have these moments of horror when the mother is like *fuck no I am not going to kill my baby* in order to save the baby from the horrors of death by radiation poisoning, but a lot of it is *fuck yeah I'm going to drive this race car really fast* and *you know the best place to take my death pills is at night looking over the ocean fuck yeah*
I mean one thing that is so freaking eerie is the mourning of extinction is sort of a background noise of dealing with daily life. Pretty boys and girls are still fun to flirt with when the world is ending.
Which is my way of leading up to the point that I am laughing really fucking hard at Josh Marshall this morning.
posted by angrycat at 7:52 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
it reminds me a bit of On the Beach; you have these moments of horror when the mother is like *fuck no I am not going to kill my baby* in order to save the baby from the horrors of death by radiation poisoning, but a lot of it is *fuck yeah I'm going to drive this race car really fast* and *you know the best place to take my death pills is at night looking over the ocean fuck yeah*
I mean one thing that is so freaking eerie is the mourning of extinction is sort of a background noise of dealing with daily life. Pretty boys and girls are still fun to flirt with when the world is ending.
Which is my way of leading up to the point that I am laughing really fucking hard at Josh Marshall this morning.
posted by angrycat at 7:52 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
Read the latest in the Atlantic, "What would make you change your mind about Pol Pot?"
posted by localhuman at 8:07 AM on December 31, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by localhuman at 8:07 AM on December 31, 2016 [19 favorites]
One of my friends went to Facebook jail for 24 hours last week as well for calling someone a racist who had used a slur against a person of color.
As has been reported previously on Metafilter, don't take that too seriously, most of Facebook Jail offenses are never seen by humans. If you have enough trolls you can get anyone banned. Facebook is not our friend.
posted by corb at 8:15 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
As has been reported previously on Metafilter, don't take that too seriously, most of Facebook Jail offenses are never seen by humans. If you have enough trolls you can get anyone banned. Facebook is not our friend.
posted by corb at 8:15 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
> One thing I don't see in that article though is any mention of healthcare.
That's because the author is a libertarian who doesn't believe the government should be involved in healthcare, and tries to invoke free market fairy tales and tortured legal logic in opposition to it. Note also his nod to Tentherism and his vague comments about judges "upholding the Bill of Rights" without any discussion of the many important issues that will likely come before the Court including Roe, so-called "right to work" laws, etc. Most of the individual items in Friedersdorf's post are unobjectionable, but the composition of the list, particularly the issues not appearing on it at all, is decidedly anti-statist in nature.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:51 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
That's because the author is a libertarian who doesn't believe the government should be involved in healthcare, and tries to invoke free market fairy tales and tortured legal logic in opposition to it. Note also his nod to Tentherism and his vague comments about judges "upholding the Bill of Rights" without any discussion of the many important issues that will likely come before the Court including Roe, so-called "right to work" laws, etc. Most of the individual items in Friedersdorf's post are unobjectionable, but the composition of the list, particularly the issues not appearing on it at all, is decidedly anti-statist in nature.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:51 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
But since Conor asked, here is my list of things that could change my mind about Donald:
Nothing.
There is nothing that will change how he campaigned and how he won the office. There is nothing that will change his history of treating women like objects. There is nothing that will erase all of the terrible things he's said about Muslims, Latinos, or the disabled. He could govern like FDR on steroids from day one through the completion of his Presidency and I would not change my mind about him, because what he's done to get there is disqualifying. This whole list-making exercise is nothing but a combination of pundit's fallacy wankery and pre-emptive surrender.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:59 AM on December 31, 2016 [54 favorites]
Nothing.
There is nothing that will change how he campaigned and how he won the office. There is nothing that will change his history of treating women like objects. There is nothing that will erase all of the terrible things he's said about Muslims, Latinos, or the disabled. He could govern like FDR on steroids from day one through the completion of his Presidency and I would not change my mind about him, because what he's done to get there is disqualifying. This whole list-making exercise is nothing but a combination of pundit's fallacy wankery and pre-emptive surrender.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:59 AM on December 31, 2016 [54 favorites]
Well to be absurdly fair tonycpsu, if all that good governance was preceded by and continued with heartfelt and thorough apologies to everyone he's harmed, then maybe?
But as noted this is all just pundit wankery. He is what he has shown himself to be with no signs of contrition or second-guessing.
posted by R343L at 9:03 AM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
But as noted this is all just pundit wankery. He is what he has shown himself to be with no signs of contrition or second-guessing.
posted by R343L at 9:03 AM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Absurdly fair is right. If the topic of Donald making a heartfelt apology is worthy of consideration, then I demand equal time for far more likely hypotheticals, such as an alien race invading us and mind-melding with Donald to make him such a great leader that he brings us an end to global hunger and lasting world peace.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:07 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 9:07 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
Right. I did say absurdly. Though I think it highlights just how far he is from what is typically considered normal behavior.
posted by R343L at 9:13 AM on December 31, 2016
posted by R343L at 9:13 AM on December 31, 2016
If the topic of Donald making a heartfelt apology is worthy of consideration, then I demand equal time for far more likely hypotheticals, such as an alien race invading us and mind-melding with Donald to make him such a great leader that he brings us an end to global hunger and lasting world peace.
Yeah, gotta back up tonycpsu here: it doesn't matter what Donald does from here on out. He got here on the back of racism, misogyny, lies, threats, hate and more. Just his campaign is disqualifying, and even if he quit on day one, he'd be leaving an enormous mess for actual adults to clean up, and he's still be a racist rapist asshole fuckwit.
He can't do anything to change my mind about him because *I am not wrong about him*. Certainly not about his worth as a human being or his contribution to society, both firmly negative. The best he could do now is stop causing damage, but even if he stopped this moment - instant angelic redemption, sudden death, whatever - the shitstorm he's set in motion is now officially a lot bigger than he is personally.
posted by mordax at 9:20 AM on December 31, 2016 [32 favorites]
Yeah, gotta back up tonycpsu here: it doesn't matter what Donald does from here on out. He got here on the back of racism, misogyny, lies, threats, hate and more. Just his campaign is disqualifying, and even if he quit on day one, he'd be leaving an enormous mess for actual adults to clean up, and he's still be a racist rapist asshole fuckwit.
He can't do anything to change my mind about him because *I am not wrong about him*. Certainly not about his worth as a human being or his contribution to society, both firmly negative. The best he could do now is stop causing damage, but even if he stopped this moment - instant angelic redemption, sudden death, whatever - the shitstorm he's set in motion is now officially a lot bigger than he is personally.
posted by mordax at 9:20 AM on December 31, 2016 [32 favorites]
the bare minimum we should expect of a president.
Not starting a nuclear exchange is good, but bare minimum in my mind is speaking in coherent logical sentences for more than two minutes without a teleprompter.
I mean, Dubz was - I, I really can't believe I'm saying this - at the time, the worst Presidential speaker in modern history. Bizarrely, they kept him on the road speaking for years, and he was terrible. But he could do it! Barely, but it wasn't verbal mush every single time without fail!
We're not even getting that. It's worse that that. Truly the GOP should only quietly dissolve and pray never speak of these times again.
posted by petebest at 9:25 AM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not starting a nuclear exchange is good, but bare minimum in my mind is speaking in coherent logical sentences for more than two minutes without a teleprompter.
I mean, Dubz was - I, I really can't believe I'm saying this - at the time, the worst Presidential speaker in modern history. Bizarrely, they kept him on the road speaking for years, and he was terrible. But he could do it! Barely, but it wasn't verbal mush every single time without fail!
We're not even getting that. It's worse that that. Truly the GOP should only quietly dissolve and pray never speak of these times again.
posted by petebest at 9:25 AM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah essentially "not being the worst president in history" is not a high enough bar. If he's merely a fuck-up and not a colossal fuck-up, well, he's still a fuck-up.
Nothing short of immediate resignation will win me over.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:27 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
Nothing short of immediate resignation will win me over.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:27 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
With Trump there is both who is he and what he does, and both are repugnant. So even if he winds up doing good things (which is fabulously unlikely - he's much more likely to infrequently refrain from doing an awful thing), he's still a bad person. He's shown us his character time and time again, we would be stupid to look for reasons to change our minds about him at this stage. I know we all love shades of grey but there are, you know, actual bad people in the world who are just really...bad people. I don't see much utility to re-litigating their badness over and over again. I would rather knock them on their ass.
posted by supercrayon at 9:27 AM on December 31, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 9:27 AM on December 31, 2016 [18 favorites]
On second thought, I do suppose if Trump apologized for the extremely long con he's been playing with the American people, then jumped on a rocket aimed for the sun, I might be swayed to rethink his character and presidency, yes, especially if he took Pence with him.
posted by supercrayon at 9:30 AM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 9:30 AM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
Well, I consider this to be honesty about myself. I don't think any of this would happen but it IS something that would make me more accepting. It's an absurd hurdle. But having been raised Christian (and having many more adult thoughts about it), I still fundamentally believe people can change, but should still be held accountable. So if I found myself talking to a Trump supporter I'd be able to clearly articulate the moral case for why I think he has a long way to go to be a decent president. None of this minimum bar nonsense.
So, no, this little absurd postulate isn't going to happen. But we still have to talk to people who we disagree with and if we can't even entertain hypotheticals, we won't be able to have a meaningful conversation.
posted by R343L at 9:31 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, no, this little absurd postulate isn't going to happen. But we still have to talk to people who we disagree with and if we can't even entertain hypotheticals, we won't be able to have a meaningful conversation.
posted by R343L at 9:31 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is only one way to live. The Trump way. [image on twitter]
Yes, I fully agree there is no point to that article, "What would make you change your mind?" There are 3 possible futures:
1.) He is worse than we could possibly imagine (shudder.)
2.) He is as bad as we imagine. (No change.)
3.) He does not do ALL the bad things we imagine him capable of doing.
So what? He did plenty of terrible things already and his Cabinet of Horrors promise there will be many bad things to come. I'm not going to stop thinking that he is a petulant, foolish old man with no ability to concentrate and no idea of how government works. I'm not going to stop thinking that he is a narcissistic asshole who takes delight in patting himself on the back and sees every tragedy as a way to promote himself. I'm not going to stop thinking that he has no ideals and only professes temporary opinions to sway perception of himself. I'm not going to stop thinking that he cares only about enriching himself and promoting his brand.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:33 AM on December 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
Yes, I fully agree there is no point to that article, "What would make you change your mind?" There are 3 possible futures:
1.) He is worse than we could possibly imagine (shudder.)
2.) He is as bad as we imagine. (No change.)
3.) He does not do ALL the bad things we imagine him capable of doing.
So what? He did plenty of terrible things already and his Cabinet of Horrors promise there will be many bad things to come. I'm not going to stop thinking that he is a petulant, foolish old man with no ability to concentrate and no idea of how government works. I'm not going to stop thinking that he is a narcissistic asshole who takes delight in patting himself on the back and sees every tragedy as a way to promote himself. I'm not going to stop thinking that he has no ideals and only professes temporary opinions to sway perception of himself. I'm not going to stop thinking that he cares only about enriching himself and promoting his brand.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:33 AM on December 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
I don't see how it's even possible to like the guy without him becoming an entirely different person. There are very few people in this world that I can't find anything nice or positive to say about them as a human being acting in this world. I really have tried with Donald and can come up with nothing redeemable.
I have tried because for the most part I can always come up with something for most everyone. The most common one, 'well he's and ass to everyone but seems to sincerely love his wife/kids/family so their must be something' sure doesn't work in this case.
I'll be happy if he doesn't do all the terrible things, great, awesome but if he doesn't it sure won't be because he's not an awful person.
posted by Jalliah at 9:33 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
change my mind about Hair Furor? he could drop [redacted]. seriously. and if he [redacted] around like a suffocating [redacted] i'd even give him some points for finesse.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:35 AM on December 31, 2016
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:35 AM on December 31, 2016
Snope has more about that image I linked to. It is not photoshopped as some people are guessing but is in fact an actual billboard erected in Mumbai with homeless people sleeping underneath it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:36 AM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:36 AM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
"And there’s one other thing that [Chuck] Todd thinks is odd: After several of his Sunday appearances as a candidate, Trump would lean back in his chair and request that the control room replay his appearance on a monitor — sans sound."
Edith Hamilton: "Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus lost his will to live. He stared at his reflection until he died."
posted by JackFlash at 9:37 AM on December 31, 2016 [25 favorites]
Edith Hamilton: "Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus lost his will to live. He stared at his reflection until he died."
posted by JackFlash at 9:37 AM on December 31, 2016 [25 favorites]
I know if won't happen here but if I expressed this sentiment elsewhere I would likely get some sort of response such as 'Well you won't like him because he's a Republican".
My response is 'I really thought Bush was an awful President. One of the worst. Regardless I could and can say some positive things about him."
Trump stymies me, utterly and completely. I can't come up with anything that isn't ironic or snark.
"Mmm well he's an interesting person....sure"
posted by Jalliah at 9:40 AM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why did Chuck Todd never mention such unusual behavior during the campaign?
posted by zachlipton at 9:42 AM on December 31, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 9:42 AM on December 31, 2016 [14 favorites]
oooh I gotta new Trump name: "Calvinball Coolidge"
posted by thelonius at 9:44 AM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:44 AM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
Snope has more about that image I linked to. It is not photoshopped as some people are guessing but is in fact an actual billboard erected in Mumbai with homeless people sleeping underneath it.
This is an amazing photo. So good that my first thought was okay if not photoshopped this has to be staged, like an art piece making a political statement. I know it's not which makes it even more, wow.
posted by Jalliah at 9:44 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is an amazing photo. So good that my first thought was okay if not photoshopped this has to be staged, like an art piece making a political statement. I know it's not which makes it even more, wow.
posted by Jalliah at 9:44 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Do not forget that Trump is a narcissist, a bully, and an abuser. Abusers always want you to pay attention to their intent and not to their actions. And I think this is why we wind up ruminating over the same thoughts and feelings in a cyclical way, when really the only effective thing to do with abusive people is to utterly simplify: Is this causing harm? Yes? Then it is bad and this person is bad.
There's this need that normal people have to carry on trying to divine abusers innermost intent while simultaneously waiting for them to be 100% bad instead of 90% or whatever so that there's no ambiguity. You will never be able to divine anyone's innermost intent, you have to let their actions be the evidence of their intent. And no one, even a repulsive cretin like our PEOTUS, is 100% bad, so waiting for that moral threshold to be crossed is a waste of time.
posted by supercrayon at 9:46 AM on December 31, 2016 [27 favorites]
There's this need that normal people have to carry on trying to divine abusers innermost intent while simultaneously waiting for them to be 100% bad instead of 90% or whatever so that there's no ambiguity. You will never be able to divine anyone's innermost intent, you have to let their actions be the evidence of their intent. And no one, even a repulsive cretin like our PEOTUS, is 100% bad, so waiting for that moral threshold to be crossed is a waste of time.
posted by supercrayon at 9:46 AM on December 31, 2016 [27 favorites]
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
I mean... I *guess* sweeping healthcare reforms might change that, if he actually did them? Or something? But he won't, so, it's moot.
posted by tel3path at 9:49 AM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
I mean... I *guess* sweeping healthcare reforms might change that, if he actually did them? Or something? But he won't, so, it's moot.
posted by tel3path at 9:49 AM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
ETA: I mean, sweeping reforms to actually *provide* healthcare, not take it away.
posted by tel3path at 9:52 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 9:52 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, no, this little absurd postulate isn't going to happen. But we still have to talk to people who we disagree with and if we can't even entertain hypotheticals, we won't be able to have a meaningful conversation.
I think this is exactly wrong. Based on anecdotal experience with many conservative people, my take is that weird hypotheticals sound wishy-washy. Best policy is to be absolutely straight with them. The less complicated your argument, the better it'll fly. I strongly recommend personal anecdotes, emotional appeals and conviction.
Messy what-if scenarios are more our thing.
posted by mordax at 9:56 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think this is exactly wrong. Based on anecdotal experience with many conservative people, my take is that weird hypotheticals sound wishy-washy. Best policy is to be absolutely straight with them. The less complicated your argument, the better it'll fly. I strongly recommend personal anecdotes, emotional appeals and conviction.
Messy what-if scenarios are more our thing.
posted by mordax at 9:56 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Okay, here's my hope for redemption for Donald. His dad was a raging alcoholic racist mobby little dictator who abused him. (Hang on, go with me here) His mom never protected him. He wasn't as smart as the others and learning was hard. He only recieved praise for keeping it together and raking over others for benefit. Bascally, standard sociopath training.
He learned the huckster's ways and believed himself to be owed love and respect; he was able to prize it out of most, but not dad. Okay? It's a thing. And now we have to deal with it.
Whether or not he knows right from wrong is not necessarily at issue in this context. What he needs is to fix that trauma of never being good enough for dad. POTUS, hey, it's a start. But plunging everything into immediate chaos and disrepair probably isn't specifically on that checklist of How To Make Dad Love Me. (Unless it was on dad's list, and it may well have been.)
So my hope is - he gets to let that need for dad's love and approval go. He gets the education he never had or wanted. He grows up, yeah at 70, it can happen in extraordinary circumstances, and he commits to doing good for good's sake. Beyond riches, beyond TV, as far as he can go into the light. And learn to huckster for people who need help. Americans and the world.
It's possible. The odds aren't great, and it'll cost everyone to get there. But it's possible.
Help me Obi Wan Kenobi. It's my only hope.
posted by petebest at 9:57 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
He learned the huckster's ways and believed himself to be owed love and respect; he was able to prize it out of most, but not dad. Okay? It's a thing. And now we have to deal with it.
Whether or not he knows right from wrong is not necessarily at issue in this context. What he needs is to fix that trauma of never being good enough for dad. POTUS, hey, it's a start. But plunging everything into immediate chaos and disrepair probably isn't specifically on that checklist of How To Make Dad Love Me. (Unless it was on dad's list, and it may well have been.)
So my hope is - he gets to let that need for dad's love and approval go. He gets the education he never had or wanted. He grows up, yeah at 70, it can happen in extraordinary circumstances, and he commits to doing good for good's sake. Beyond riches, beyond TV, as far as he can go into the light. And learn to huckster for people who need help. Americans and the world.
It's possible. The odds aren't great, and it'll cost everyone to get there. But it's possible.
Help me Obi Wan Kenobi. It's my only hope.
posted by petebest at 9:57 AM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
a) What Friedersdorf's editors think he's trying to do here seems clear; there were a bunch of articles floating around a few weeks ago about "what would convince you otherwise" as applied to e.g. fake news or Clinton's candidacy. There were people in these very threads coming forth with that as a rhetorical strategy. So we'll probably continue seeing these [sigh].
b) As to what he's actually succeeded in doing, I guess it does manage to collect a lot of trump's more onerous "positions" in one place.
As others have pointed out above, it also assumes Secret Life of Gravy's #3 position from the comment above.
Maybe it's all tongue-in-cheek. He is basically saying he'd be shocked if the president manages not to be the worst fuckup ever. But it concludes with a rehash of my current least favorite cliché: "Let’s flesh out what success or failure would mean before it’s time to judge it."
To paraphrase (I think) George Carlin, if someone says something like that to you, don't fuck 'em.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:57 AM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
b) As to what he's actually succeeded in doing, I guess it does manage to collect a lot of trump's more onerous "positions" in one place.
As others have pointed out above, it also assumes Secret Life of Gravy's #3 position from the comment above.
Maybe it's all tongue-in-cheek. He is basically saying he'd be shocked if the president manages not to be the worst fuckup ever. But it concludes with a rehash of my current least favorite cliché: "Let’s flesh out what success or failure would mean before it’s time to judge it."
To paraphrase (I think) George Carlin, if someone says something like that to you, don't fuck 'em.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:57 AM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
We elected a candidate who in 1987 proposed teaming up with the Soviets to commit preemptive genocide on pre-nuclear countries:
“Maybe we should offer them something. I’m saying you start off as nicely as possible. You apply as much pressure as necessary until you achieve the goal. You start off telling them, ‘Let’s get rid of it.’ If that doesn’t work you then start cutting off aid. And more aid and then more. You do whatever is necessary so these people will have riots in the street, so they can’t get water. So they can’t get Band-Aids, so they can’t get food. Because that’s the only thing that’s going to do it—the people, the riots.”
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:06 AM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
“Maybe we should offer them something. I’m saying you start off as nicely as possible. You apply as much pressure as necessary until you achieve the goal. You start off telling them, ‘Let’s get rid of it.’ If that doesn’t work you then start cutting off aid. And more aid and then more. You do whatever is necessary so these people will have riots in the street, so they can’t get water. So they can’t get Band-Aids, so they can’t get food. Because that’s the only thing that’s going to do it—the people, the riots.”
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:06 AM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
Also note that in 2014 he proposed a similar solution to America's woes: “You know what solves it? When the economy crashes, when the country goes to total hell and everything is a disaster. Then you’ll have a [chuckles], you know, you’ll have riots to go back to where we used to be when we were great.”
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:10 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:10 AM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
"Let’s flesh out what success or failure would mean before it’s time to judge it."
Ok, success would be creating a future that's like Star Trek. Failure would be creating a future that's like Mad Max.
posted by mazola at 10:13 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Ok, success would be creating a future that's like Star Trek. Failure would be creating a future that's like Mad Max.
posted by mazola at 10:13 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Let's be careful with this wishful thinking. Anything D does will change the entire world. The world is complex. When he does something (and things don't come in two colours of clever and stoopid), there will be direct fall out and a whole legion of interactions and distributed contributory effects, so that the chase from cause to effect will become a matter of narrative creativity, rather than empirical evidence. Then there will be many accounts of how he has changed things for the better, and many will have some evidence, but more importantly, a plausible narrative. We'll be stuck here sighing that everything has gone to shit, but this will rob us of air, of a means of insisting on reason. So hold it with the "maybe if he became a saint" stuff, because that will be used against us.
posted by stonepharisee at 10:17 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by stonepharisee at 10:17 AM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Perhaps the first example we can expect of this is the fabulous victory in Syria, as Assad is restored to power, and very many people are bombed to oblivion.
posted by stonepharisee at 10:22 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by stonepharisee at 10:22 AM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Perhaps the first example we can expect of this is the fabulous victory in Syria, as Assad is restored to power, and very many people are bombed to oblivion.
I don't think this is even possible with, what, three quarter of the population being Sunni?
It would be like trying to fight a war to reinstitute apartheid in South Africa.
posted by Talez at 10:53 AM on December 31, 2016
I don't think this is even possible with, what, three quarter of the population being Sunni?
It would be like trying to fight a war to reinstitute apartheid in South Africa.
posted by Talez at 10:53 AM on December 31, 2016
I don't know how much I'm willing to buy into the Donald as secretly tactical idiot-whisperer or Donald as wounded child in need of validation theories. I have no doubt that his father treated him horribly, but for much of his adult life, the man appears to have faced exactly zero repercussions for any of his actions. No matter how much money he loses or what horrible things he says or does, he's either been able to pay or cheat his way out of it. And regardless of how specious any of his claims are, there is no shortage of people willing to repeat them loudly and frequently. He surrounds himself with yes-men who seem to have learned how to tell him the version of reality he wants to hear - who manage him instead of the other way around.
Hell, if no one ever contradicted anything I said or held me accountable for my actions, I'd probably be more of an asshole too. Consequences go a long way in shaping our morality and wisdom. The man needs a few years in the time-out corner.
From what I can see, we get President Trump because we have a crappy electoral system that is overbalanced towards people who are having a collective hissy fit because a black man became president and a woman had the nerve to try. Critical thinking skills have gone the way of the dodo, the internet has made it easy for all sorts of "news" organizations to ape authority, and it's way to easy, and perhaps even essential, to limit our information sources to entities that already share our beliefs.
posted by bibliowench at 10:59 AM on December 31, 2016 [40 favorites]
Hell, if no one ever contradicted anything I said or held me accountable for my actions, I'd probably be more of an asshole too. Consequences go a long way in shaping our morality and wisdom. The man needs a few years in the time-out corner.
From what I can see, we get President Trump because we have a crappy electoral system that is overbalanced towards people who are having a collective hissy fit because a black man became president and a woman had the nerve to try. Critical thinking skills have gone the way of the dodo, the internet has made it easy for all sorts of "news" organizations to ape authority, and it's way to easy, and perhaps even essential, to limit our information sources to entities that already share our beliefs.
posted by bibliowench at 10:59 AM on December 31, 2016 [40 favorites]
I have no doubt that his father treated him horribly, but for much of his adult life, the man appears to have faced exactly zero repercussions
Exactly, no availability for change. It's unlikely he'll drop acid or be forced to surrender in total defeat, anytime soon, so the most probable path to any evolution for him is through the crushing regimen of being POTUS and some refocusing away from his finances. POTUS Yoga, say. Brings enlightenment. Somehow.
posted by petebest at 11:24 AM on December 31, 2016
Exactly, no availability for change. It's unlikely he'll drop acid or be forced to surrender in total defeat, anytime soon, so the most probable path to any evolution for him is through the crushing regimen of being POTUS and some refocusing away from his finances. POTUS Yoga, say. Brings enlightenment. Somehow.
posted by petebest at 11:24 AM on December 31, 2016
Critical thinking skills have gone the way of the dodo
Not much more than usual, it's just in the spotlight right now. One thing that isn't in the spotlight is how many garden variety GOPs are fretting that maybe they screwed up. That would be a reassuring story, but it's not a possible one for many reasons. Doesn't mean it's not out there.
posted by petebest at 11:28 AM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not much more than usual, it's just in the spotlight right now. One thing that isn't in the spotlight is how many garden variety GOPs are fretting that maybe they screwed up. That would be a reassuring story, but it's not a possible one for many reasons. Doesn't mean it's not out there.
posted by petebest at 11:28 AM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
One thing that's going to be very wearying is being lied to all the time, about everything, spinning it all as a tremendous success for Maximum Generalissimo Trump. You know how it goes in authoritarian states with leadership cults.. Assuming he doesn't rescind the First, though, you'll be able to call him a liar to his face - one vital difference between a free state and a corporation. You don't sign an NDA and you can't get sacked. (Much as he clearly wants to recast the USA as a corporation where you can be fired - remember that thing about removing people's citizenship?)
I do hope this is a continued and thunderous theme.
posted by Devonian at 11:29 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
I do hope this is a continued and thunderous theme.
posted by Devonian at 11:29 AM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
Based on anecdotal experience with many conservative people, my take is that weird hypotheticals sound wishy-washy. Best policy is to be absolutely straight with them
I'm going with "He's the Anti-Christ."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:37 AM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm going with "He's the Anti-Christ."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:37 AM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
It would be like trying to fight a war to reinstitute apartheid in South Africa.
Conservatives have done an excellent job in reinstituting Jim Crow in the Southern US, and even exporting it to places like Wisconsin, so I'm no finding that anywhere as reassuring as you make it sound.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:41 AM on December 31, 2016 [28 favorites]
Conservatives have done an excellent job in reinstituting Jim Crow in the Southern US, and even exporting it to places like Wisconsin, so I'm no finding that anywhere as reassuring as you make it sound.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:41 AM on December 31, 2016 [28 favorites]
So, no, this little absurd postulate isn't going to happen. But we still have to talk to people who we disagree with and if we can't even entertain hypotheticals, we won't be able to have a meaningful conversation.
I think this is exactly wrong. Based on anecdotal experience with many conservative people, my take is that weird hypotheticals sound wishy-washy. Best policy is to be absolutely straight with them. The less complicated your argument, the better it'll fly. I strongly recommend personal anecdotes, emotional appeals and conviction.
Messy what-if scenarios are more our thing.
posted by mordax at 9:56 AM
So much THIS! In my experience conservatives are all about emotion.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 12:05 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think this is exactly wrong. Based on anecdotal experience with many conservative people, my take is that weird hypotheticals sound wishy-washy. Best policy is to be absolutely straight with them. The less complicated your argument, the better it'll fly. I strongly recommend personal anecdotes, emotional appeals and conviction.
Messy what-if scenarios are more our thing.
posted by mordax at 9:56 AM
So much THIS! In my experience conservatives are all about emotion.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 12:05 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is Josh Marshall really going with the "I tweeted that on purpose to make some sort of political point" tactic? That's a bold strategy. At least this has brightened my day.
posted by Justinian at 12:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't think I have to actually postulate the complicated hypothetical to make the argument. "I don't tolerated unrepentant liars and abusers in my personal or professional life. I don't think they make good presidents either."
posted by R343L at 12:11 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by R343L at 12:11 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Facebook comment re: the NYE tweet:
When the liberal left get their thumbs out of their mouths, put the hot chocolate down, stop being cry babies because they lost, maybe they will grow up and get ready to be part of making America great again! Until then, direct your negative comments to the current President who has been in charge for the last 8 years and continues to make our country the laughing stock of the world.
The poster: A public school system pre-school teacher in Ferndale- one of the supposedly more "liberal" towns in Michigan.
I mean, why is anyone trying to talk about redeemable trump in the manner of that idiotic article. Let's repeat it one more time:
HE'S SHOWING YOU WHO HE IS AND WHAT HE WILL DO RIGHT NOW! If there was ever a time for him to scale it back and tone it down, it would be the present, post-election/ pre-inauguration.
But no, he's tripling down. He LUVS that murdering dictator Putin and he HATES Americans who don't genuflect to him. He don't need no stinking intelligence briefings. He ain't scared of nuttin. "You are." He is still the same grade-school kid who got away with belting a teacher. He is unable to even be a simulacrum of a halfway decent leader. Or person. He's a monster.
And take it from someone who's spent decades around conservatives. Many of them are still not appalled. They'll NEVER be appalled. They are eating it all up with one of his old coke spoons.
They're special snowflakes, and dammit, all the Not-Thems are going to pay for trying to take that away.
Drain the swamp, Donald! The racism even in that statement. It had nothing to do with D.C. government (or using magical pixie dust to bring back manufacturing). It's about "all American Muslims are jihadists." Mexicans and blacks blahblah. Teh gays infringing on THEIR religious liberty blahblah.
I have come to realize, more than ever, that one of the primary problems with that kind of person is they have no empathy for anything outside their narrow tribe. How you get them to see, to FEEL differently is the trillion dollar question.
posted by NorthernLite at 12:18 PM on December 31, 2016 [35 favorites]
When the liberal left get their thumbs out of their mouths, put the hot chocolate down, stop being cry babies because they lost, maybe they will grow up and get ready to be part of making America great again! Until then, direct your negative comments to the current President who has been in charge for the last 8 years and continues to make our country the laughing stock of the world.
The poster: A public school system pre-school teacher in Ferndale- one of the supposedly more "liberal" towns in Michigan.
I mean, why is anyone trying to talk about redeemable trump in the manner of that idiotic article. Let's repeat it one more time:
HE'S SHOWING YOU WHO HE IS AND WHAT HE WILL DO RIGHT NOW! If there was ever a time for him to scale it back and tone it down, it would be the present, post-election/ pre-inauguration.
But no, he's tripling down. He LUVS that murdering dictator Putin and he HATES Americans who don't genuflect to him. He don't need no stinking intelligence briefings. He ain't scared of nuttin. "You are." He is still the same grade-school kid who got away with belting a teacher. He is unable to even be a simulacrum of a halfway decent leader. Or person. He's a monster.
And take it from someone who's spent decades around conservatives. Many of them are still not appalled. They'll NEVER be appalled. They are eating it all up with one of his old coke spoons.
They're special snowflakes, and dammit, all the Not-Thems are going to pay for trying to take that away.
Drain the swamp, Donald! The racism even in that statement. It had nothing to do with D.C. government (or using magical pixie dust to bring back manufacturing). It's about "all American Muslims are jihadists." Mexicans and blacks blahblah. Teh gays infringing on THEIR religious liberty blahblah.
I have come to realize, more than ever, that one of the primary problems with that kind of person is they have no empathy for anything outside their narrow tribe. How you get them to see, to FEEL differently is the trillion dollar question.
posted by NorthernLite at 12:18 PM on December 31, 2016 [35 favorites]
The Hard Times New Years Eve post:
DNC Offers to Help Drop the Ball
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
DNC Offers to Help Drop the Ball
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Senators join Ukraine president at military command post
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on Saturday tweeted a picture of himself alongside three U.S. senators at a military command post in Ukraine.
Poroshenko said in the tweet that he arrived at the military base with Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.), Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) to wish Ukrainian soldiers a happy new year.
posted by futz at 12:32 PM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on Saturday tweeted a picture of himself alongside three U.S. senators at a military command post in Ukraine.
Poroshenko said in the tweet that he arrived at the military base with Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.), Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) to wish Ukrainian soldiers a happy new year.
posted by futz at 12:32 PM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
> Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.), Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) to wish Ukrainian soldiers a happy new year.
On the foreign policy front, to the extent that the Senate can act as a check on Presidential powers, I'm cautiously optimistic that a small handful of Republican Cold Warriors (including McCain and Graham) will team up with the Democrats to prevent the worst instincts of our President Elect (I just threw up in my mouth) from coming to fruit.
But on the domestic policy front? I have no expectations that this time Lucy won't yank the football away from the hapless Democrats. I'm braced for an atrocious Supreme court appointment (or two?), the most regressive tax policies that Ryan can dream up, drill baby drill, logging in the National Parks, goodbye to Medicaid ... There's just no bottom in sight.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:45 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the foreign policy front, to the extent that the Senate can act as a check on Presidential powers, I'm cautiously optimistic that a small handful of Republican Cold Warriors (including McCain and Graham) will team up with the Democrats to prevent the worst instincts of our President Elect (I just threw up in my mouth) from coming to fruit.
But on the domestic policy front? I have no expectations that this time Lucy won't yank the football away from the hapless Democrats. I'm braced for an atrocious Supreme court appointment (or two?), the most regressive tax policies that Ryan can dream up, drill baby drill, logging in the National Parks, goodbye to Medicaid ... There's just no bottom in sight.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:45 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
"What Would Change Your Mind About President Trump?"
He is fundamentally different, and the problems are bigger than just policy.
The ways in which Trump are fundamentally different represent real and genuine threats to meaningful self-governance in this country. No amount of good policy will undo those threats. Good policy proposals will change my mind about Trump's policy positions, but they will not change my mind about Trump himself.
In an earlier election thread, we discussed the remarks of former Justice Souter about civic ignorance and how a democracy dies. I think it is worth quoting Souter here:
Donald Trump is different because he represents the elevation of civic ignorance as a virtue. His campaign represents a true contempt for meaningful debate. The constant theater of insults has diminished the body politic's regard for facts, reality, nuance, and self-reflection. In short, there are two things that could change my mind about Trump:
1.) It turns out he is a totally different person than all available facts indicate.
2.) I am severely mentally ill and have imagined all of this.
The Atlantic article is part of the problem. "It turns out he really doesn't order our troops to commit war crimes," will not change my mind about Trump. The fact that he has merely suggested that we should kill the family members of our enemies is horrifying. I mean, how is that not yet fucked up enough? When someone writes "I will change my mind if he doesn't commit war crimes" in a magazine like The Atlantic, civic ignorance takes another step forward, and democracy gets a little sicker.
posted by compartment at 12:52 PM on December 31, 2016 [104 favorites]
- Release meaningful tax records
- Release meaningful health records
- Promise that he is not using psychoactive drugs
- Actually divest; do not run afoul of the emoluments clause
- Full accounting of overseas business relationships, debts, etc.
- Do his job without the help of his children
- Sincerely denounce white supremacists, white nationalists, KKK, neo-Nazis, and the alt-right
- Demonstrate that he understands what consent is, what sexual assault is, and demonstrate that he sincerely regrets (for the appropriate reasons) his history of assault and harassment
- Acknowledge that it was unprecedented in American history and completely inappropriate for a presidential candidate to threaten to investigate, prosecute, and jail his opponent
- Acknowledge that anthropogenic climate change is real
- Acknowledge that science is a good way of understanding reality in general
- Acknowledge that the job he is about to take requires a degree of self-restraint; demonstrate that self-restraint
- Sincerely apologize for mocking a person's disability
- Sincerely apologize for incorrectly asserting that thousands of Muslim Americans celebrated 9/11
- Sincerely apologize for calling an entire group of people rapists and murderers
- Sincerely apologize for mocking John McCain's time as a POW, and acknowledge that his comments effectively disparaged all POWs
- Sincerely apologize for mocking the parents of a dead soldier
- Sincerely apologize for proposing an immigration ban on an entire religion
- Acknowledge that there was no widespread voter fraud in the election, and sincerely apologize for stoking fears based on wild conspiracy theories
- Sincerely apologize for lowering the standard of discourse in American politics
- Condemn Russia's human rights record
- Commit to a no-first-strike nuclear policy, which would be unprecedented but also prudent and appropriate given his past comments regarding the use of nuclear weapons
- Demonstrate a sincere and nuanced belief, grounded in facts and reflecting some amount of deep thought, about literally anything real and of actual substance that pertains to his job as president
- Stop tweeting like a maniac
- Speak coherently
He is fundamentally different, and the problems are bigger than just policy.
The ways in which Trump are fundamentally different represent real and genuine threats to meaningful self-governance in this country. No amount of good policy will undo those threats. Good policy proposals will change my mind about Trump's policy positions, but they will not change my mind about Trump himself.
In an earlier election thread, we discussed the remarks of former Justice Souter about civic ignorance and how a democracy dies. I think it is worth quoting Souter here:
You can’t keep [a democratic republic] in ignorance. I don’t worry about our losing republican government in the United States because I’m afraid of a foreign invasion. I don’t worry about it because I think there is going to be a coup by the military as has happened in some other places.Souter's remarks about Augustus describe someone exactly like Trump. "I alone can fix it," he said during a scripted speech at the Republican National Convention. This was not some off-the-cuff word salad. This is his actual message.
What I worry about is that when problems are not addressed, people will not know who is responsible. And when the problems get bad enough, as they might do, for example, with another serious terrorist attack, as they might do with another financial meltdown, some one person will come forward and say, "Give me total power and I will solve this problem."
That is how the Roman republic fell. Augustus became emperor not because he arrested the Roman senate. He became emperor because he promised he would solve problems that were not being solved.
If we know who is responsible, I have enough faith in the American people to demand performance from those responsible.
If we don’t know, we will stay away from the polls. We will not demand it. And the day will come when somebody will come forward and and we and the government will in effect say, "Take the ball and run with it. Do what you have to do."
That is the way democracy dies. And if something is not done to improve the level of civic knowledge, that is what you should worry about at night.
Donald Trump is different because he represents the elevation of civic ignorance as a virtue. His campaign represents a true contempt for meaningful debate. The constant theater of insults has diminished the body politic's regard for facts, reality, nuance, and self-reflection. In short, there are two things that could change my mind about Trump:
1.) It turns out he is a totally different person than all available facts indicate.
2.) I am severely mentally ill and have imagined all of this.
The Atlantic article is part of the problem. "It turns out he really doesn't order our troops to commit war crimes," will not change my mind about Trump. The fact that he has merely suggested that we should kill the family members of our enemies is horrifying. I mean, how is that not yet fucked up enough? When someone writes "I will change my mind if he doesn't commit war crimes" in a magazine like The Atlantic, civic ignorance takes another step forward, and democracy gets a little sicker.
posted by compartment at 12:52 PM on December 31, 2016 [104 favorites]
The whole NATO thing really has me up at night.
The Baltic states have sent soldiers to fight and die in Afghanistan. Not all came back.
Now suddenly the GOP under Trump is so close to abandoning them outright.
I do NOT want to bequeath my children a country that abandoned its democratic allies in 2017. It's not that I want a war with Russia. It's that I want enough "si vis pace, parabellum" keeping the Baltic borders in tact.
And apparently that makes me a warmonger..
posted by ocschwar at 12:54 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Baltic states have sent soldiers to fight and die in Afghanistan. Not all came back.
Now suddenly the GOP under Trump is so close to abandoning them outright.
I do NOT want to bequeath my children a country that abandoned its democratic allies in 2017. It's not that I want a war with Russia. It's that I want enough "si vis pace, parabellum" keeping the Baltic borders in tact.
And apparently that makes me a warmonger..
posted by ocschwar at 12:54 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
The last time America's foreign policy made sense to me was the rescue of Kuwait: there was a clear strategic interest at stake, clearly-defined goals, and a meaningful victory condition. Pretty much nothing since then makes sense except as a way to funnel money to military contractors. NATO is a strategically-advantageous low-cost investment and should be utterly uncontroversial; of course Trump's going to try to bring it down.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:16 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:16 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also,
U.S. Senators Vow No 'Faustian Bargain' With Russia, Pledge To Target Putin 'Harder'
Speaking in an exclusive interview with RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service in Kyiv on December 30 along with two other U.S. senators, McCain (Republican-Arizona) said any possible deal with Putin "would interfere with and undermine the freedom and democracies that exist today."
..."We're going to do two things: We're going after Putin harder with tougher sanctions and we're going to be more helpful to our friends, like here in Ukraine," Graham said.
McCain, Graham, and Amy Klobuchar (Democrat-Minnesota) said there is strong support in Congress to provide Ukraine with "lethal defensive weapons" to help Kyiv in its fight against Russia-backed separatists in the east.
Talk about poking the hornet's nest.
posted by futz at 1:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
U.S. Senators Vow No 'Faustian Bargain' With Russia, Pledge To Target Putin 'Harder'
Speaking in an exclusive interview with RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service in Kyiv on December 30 along with two other U.S. senators, McCain (Republican-Arizona) said any possible deal with Putin "would interfere with and undermine the freedom and democracies that exist today."
..."We're going to do two things: We're going after Putin harder with tougher sanctions and we're going to be more helpful to our friends, like here in Ukraine," Graham said.
McCain, Graham, and Amy Klobuchar (Democrat-Minnesota) said there is strong support in Congress to provide Ukraine with "lethal defensive weapons" to help Kyiv in its fight against Russia-backed separatists in the east.
Talk about poking the hornet's nest.
posted by futz at 1:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
The last time America's foreign policy made sense to me was the rescue of Kuwait:
Stopping Serbs from massacring Albanians with the agreement and consent from almost all of Western Europe wasn't sensible?
posted by Talez at 1:28 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Stopping Serbs from massacring Albanians with the agreement and consent from almost all of Western Europe wasn't sensible?
posted by Talez at 1:28 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't think that reflected current US policy as much as a locked-in choice to go along with NATO, but sure, count that if you like and compare it to Gulf War 2, the invasion of Afghanistan, the "War on Terror", the consequent operations across Africa and the Middle and Near East, the interventions in Libya, in Syria ...
So to the extent that Trump has expressed any interest in foreign policy, it's been about scrapping NATO but otherwise doing the same, and more, and worse in the Middle East ("take their oil"). It's basically everything bad about US policy without the good (or even the justifiable) bits. It's horrifying.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:51 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
So to the extent that Trump has expressed any interest in foreign policy, it's been about scrapping NATO but otherwise doing the same, and more, and worse in the Middle East ("take their oil"). It's basically everything bad about US policy without the good (or even the justifiable) bits. It's horrifying.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:51 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
[smalling for the derail] Kuwait? Mmmmmmm . . . gonna disagree based on the blood-for-oil thing and the two+ decades undermining renewable energy research and funding. Also because Poppy's a spook and if he's sending troops it's very likely a dirty deal somewhere. Since the cover story was a dirty deal by my account, who knows what ulterior motives were.
posted by petebest at 1:52 PM on December 31, 2016
posted by petebest at 1:52 PM on December 31, 2016
The more I think about it the more I think Trump may very well nominate Garland for the SCOTUS. The obvious reasons against this simply don't apply. Trump isn't really a Republican, and he has no personal dog in the SCOTUS hunt. He doesn't particularly like the people who blocked Garland, and he's probably been advised from at least ten directions that it would be a positive healing thing to do to bring the country together, which is a thing Trump would probably want to look like he's doing if he can do it at no cost to things he actually cares about. And it would actually ratfuck the Democrats if they're thinking of duplicating the Republicans' scorched earth approach to everything Obama tried to do. For which reason I suspect more than one Republican has been suggesting he do this. It's not like the Republicans don't like Garland; he's a perfectly acceptable bipartisan compromise candidate. It's just that they didn't like the fact he was Obama's nominee.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:58 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:58 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
The more I think about it the more I think Trump may very well nominate Garland for the SCOTUS.
There's zero chance that this happens.
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on December 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
There's zero chance that this happens.
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on December 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
Yeah, it would lend cover to their claim that they were justified in blocking a late-term nomination, by showing that they couldn't have had any other motive - look, they're putting the same candidate forward!
Well, let's hope so.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, let's hope so.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Guys, he's more likely to nominate one of his own kids than Garland.
* now that it's occurred to me I think he might actually nominate one of his own kids
posted by gerryblog at 2:10 PM on December 31, 2016 [22 favorites]
* now that it's occurred to me I think he might actually nominate one of his own kids
posted by gerryblog at 2:10 PM on December 31, 2016 [22 favorites]
Trump would have to get very pissed off at the Senate Republicans, which he shows no signs of yet. We'll see after his cabinet appointments go through the affirmation process, but the simple fact that he hasn't bothered to announce a Judicial appointment yet may provide a clue. But it's more likely his extreme laziness and having too much fun turning the "transition" into a "victory lap".
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:14 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:14 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Guys, he's more likely to nominate one of his own kids than Garland.
Or his sister.
posted by PenDevil at 2:15 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Or his sister.
posted by PenDevil at 2:15 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Or Ted Cruz, god help us all.
posted by Justinian at 2:17 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:17 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trying to think of a worse SCOTUS option to continue the chain.
The reanimated brain of Jesse Helms in a robotic spider body?
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:21 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
The reanimated brain of Jesse Helms in a robotic spider body?
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:21 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
he's probably been advised from at least ten directions that it would be a positive healing thing to do to bring the country together
I've been wrong about everything else, so who the hell knows? But he can't write a generous tweet. I see no evidence to suggest that either Donnie or any of his advisors care a whit about "healing" or "bringing the country together."
I do NOT want to bequeath my children a country that abandoned its democratic allies in 2017.
Abraham Lincoln Brigade, anyone?
posted by octobersurprise at 2:23 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've been wrong about everything else, so who the hell knows? But he can't write a generous tweet. I see no evidence to suggest that either Donnie or any of his advisors care a whit about "healing" or "bringing the country together."
I do NOT want to bequeath my children a country that abandoned its democratic allies in 2017.
Abraham Lincoln Brigade, anyone?
posted by octobersurprise at 2:23 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump would have to get very pissed off at the Senate Republicans, which he shows no signs of yet.
In what world? Trump is VERY pissed off at the entire Republican establishment because PRIMARY, AMIRITE. He has no loyalty to anybody and certainly not to people who trash-talked him just a few months ago.
Look, I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but to say there is zero chance of Trump doing ANYTHING is pretty stupid at this point. Well, I take that back, he won't apologize because he doesn't think he has ever done anything wrong. But there's an open SC seat, and if he doesn't nominate Garland, who does he nominate? We already saw what happened when GWB tried nominating the nice lady from two doors down. It's very obvious Trump doesn't really know that many people and has no personally known pool of talent to draw from. So, who?
Nominating Garland would look like a slick deal-making maneuver while avoiding the need to find an actual candidate on his own that could pass muster. It would validate his self-image as a guy who does slick deals and serve as a warning to the Republican establishment that he is THE MAN. I really don't see what the down side of it would be for him.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:25 PM on December 31, 2016
In what world? Trump is VERY pissed off at the entire Republican establishment because PRIMARY, AMIRITE. He has no loyalty to anybody and certainly not to people who trash-talked him just a few months ago.
Look, I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but to say there is zero chance of Trump doing ANYTHING is pretty stupid at this point. Well, I take that back, he won't apologize because he doesn't think he has ever done anything wrong. But there's an open SC seat, and if he doesn't nominate Garland, who does he nominate? We already saw what happened when GWB tried nominating the nice lady from two doors down. It's very obvious Trump doesn't really know that many people and has no personally known pool of talent to draw from. So, who?
Nominating Garland would look like a slick deal-making maneuver while avoiding the need to find an actual candidate on his own that could pass muster. It would validate his self-image as a guy who does slick deals and serve as a warning to the Republican establishment that he is THE MAN. I really don't see what the down side of it would be for him.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:25 PM on December 31, 2016
I've given up predicting anything. Trump might decide not to nominate anyone, because the Supreme Court is so slow and gets it so wrong. They never win anymore. Sad!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:28 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:28 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Well there is also the fact that the SCOTUS is likely to start issuing decisions left and right against stuff Trump has promised to do, so he might feel he is at war with SCOTUS itself, which ... damn, is there another bottle of Jack Daniel's? I think I need to run back to the package store while it's still open.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:31 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:31 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
We can write Trump fan fic all we want. At this point all any of can say with any certainty is that there is no evidence that he wants to appoint Garland, no evidence that he needs to appoint Garland, and very little evidence that he's even given the matter any thought at all.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:33 PM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 2:33 PM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
Trump is more likely to nominate himself than to nominate Garland.
Can he nominate himself? I'd take that if it means he accidentally resigns.
posted by fomhar at 2:33 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can he nominate himself? I'd take that if it means he accidentally resigns.
posted by fomhar at 2:33 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Look, I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but to say there is zero chance of Trump doing ANYTHING is pretty stupid at this point. Well, I take that back, he won't apologize because he doesn't think he has ever done anything wrong. But there's an open SC seat, and if he doesn't nominate Garland, who does he nominate? We already saw what happened when GWB tried nominating the nice lady from two doors down. It's very obvious Trump doesn't really know that many people and has no personally known pool of talent to draw from. So, who?
why not realtor/dentist/birth certificate researcherLionel Hutz Orly Taitz?
posted by indubitable at 2:35 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
why not realtor/dentist/birth certificate researcher
posted by indubitable at 2:35 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Federal Judge Halts Obamacare Transgender, Abortion-Related Protections Nationwide: A federal judge in Texas on Saturday issued a nationwide injunction halting enforcement of Obama administration protections for transgender and abortion-related healthcare services just one day before they were due to go into effect.
The lawsuit — brought by Texas, a handful of other states, and some religiously affiliated nonprofit medical groups — challenges a regulation implementing the sex nondiscrimination requirement found in the Affordable Care Act (ACA).
The Health and Human Services (HHS) regulation “forbids discriminating on the basis of ‘gender identity’ and ‘termination of pregnancy’” under Obamacare, as US District Court Judge Reed O’Connor wrote in his opinion halting enforcement of those provisions in the rule.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:36 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
The lawsuit — brought by Texas, a handful of other states, and some religiously affiliated nonprofit medical groups — challenges a regulation implementing the sex nondiscrimination requirement found in the Affordable Care Act (ACA).
The Health and Human Services (HHS) regulation “forbids discriminating on the basis of ‘gender identity’ and ‘termination of pregnancy’” under Obamacare, as US District Court Judge Reed O’Connor wrote in his opinion halting enforcement of those provisions in the rule.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:36 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
I thought he pulled the "no hard feelings, guys, but just remember I am in charge" bit when he made the unspellable Preibus chief of staff, with Bad Boy Bannon his shadow chief of staff. So he's just assuming they'll rubberstamp him, and when they don't... look out, Trump Temper Tantrum!!!
And for Worse Supreme Court Candidates, may I offer:
Rudy Giuliani
Rudy Giuliani's Current Wife
Scott Baio
Conrad Black (that recent ass-kissing op-ed of his)
Whoever he can get to headline the Inaugural Ball.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:38 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
And for Worse Supreme Court Candidates, may I offer:
Rudy Giuliani
Rudy Giuliani's Current Wife
Scott Baio
Conrad Black (that recent ass-kissing op-ed of his)
Whoever he can get to headline the Inaugural Ball.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:38 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm still kinda thinking the sister.
It's nepotistic (she's his older sister), it's incompetent (she's 79, and likely wouldn't stick around long), and he's said before that she doesn't want to do it, so it's, let's say, nonconsensual.
Trumpfecta.
posted by box at 2:39 PM on December 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
It's nepotistic (she's his older sister), it's incompetent (she's 79, and likely wouldn't stick around long), and he's said before that she doesn't want to do it, so it's, let's say, nonconsensual.
Trumpfecta.
posted by box at 2:39 PM on December 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
One word: Meredith.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 2:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
2017 will be the year of the fake SCOTUS nominee. The person literally will not exist. Will they be confirmed? Find out next time.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:44 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:44 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think that reflected current US policy as much as a locked-in choice to go along with NATO,
I see Kosovo more as a reaction to completely screwing the pooch with the inaction in Rwanda and never wanting to make that level of fuckup ever again.
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
I see Kosovo more as a reaction to completely screwing the pooch with the inaction in Rwanda and never wanting to make that level of fuckup ever again.
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Federal Judge Halts Obamacare Transgender, Abortion-Related Protections Nationwide
California and other liberal judges need to be paying attention to the political bullshit that the Texas district courts have gotten away with. GOP forum shopping and allied Republican judges have hamstrung nearly every significant executive branch initiative under Obama by shutting things down with partisan nationwide injunctions, which in turn paved the way for Republican suits fast tracked to the Supreme Court.
Liberal judges need to do the same thing to Trump. Democrats need to learn to use the courts as a weapon. No legal theory is too outlandish or implausible to push, and liberal judges should entertain any rationale to support a nationwide injunction against deporting DREAMERs, or whatever other horrors Trump and the GOP congress try. It's no longer about the rule of law, only what policy outcomes can get 5 SCOTUS votes. Liberal judges should start playing the same game.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:50 PM on December 31, 2016 [21 favorites]
California and other liberal judges need to be paying attention to the political bullshit that the Texas district courts have gotten away with. GOP forum shopping and allied Republican judges have hamstrung nearly every significant executive branch initiative under Obama by shutting things down with partisan nationwide injunctions, which in turn paved the way for Republican suits fast tracked to the Supreme Court.
Liberal judges need to do the same thing to Trump. Democrats need to learn to use the courts as a weapon. No legal theory is too outlandish or implausible to push, and liberal judges should entertain any rationale to support a nationwide injunction against deporting DREAMERs, or whatever other horrors Trump and the GOP congress try. It's no longer about the rule of law, only what policy outcomes can get 5 SCOTUS votes. Liberal judges should start playing the same game.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:50 PM on December 31, 2016 [21 favorites]
And for Worse Supreme Court Candidates, may I offer:
...
Whoever he can get to headline the Inaugural Ball.
i thought he was handing out ambassadorships for those [real]
posted by indubitable at 2:56 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
...
Whoever he can get to headline the Inaugural Ball.
i thought he was handing out ambassadorships for those [real]
posted by indubitable at 2:56 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like most of the actual details of running the government beyond publicity stunts and saber rattling, he's outsourced the SCOTUS pick to Heritage. They're the ones that came up with his list of 20 names, all of which were extremely right wing judges with a track record of ruling exactly how Heritage would want, ie, pro-business, tough on crime, overturn Roe, etc. There's a 0% chance he nominates anyone even slightly to the left of Scalia, and most likely it will be the most right wing Justice to ever sit on the Court.
If he gets any more picks, they will come from the same list of names.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:00 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
If he gets any more picks, they will come from the same list of names.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:00 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
Actual Literal Adolf Hitler Risen From The Grave is a more likely pick than Garland. Mostly likely we'll get someone further to the right that that though.
posted by Artw at 3:03 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:03 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Welcome to the Supreme Court, Justice Nugent.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:05 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 3:05 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
One thing that isn't in the spotlight is how many garden variety GOPs are fretting that maybe they screwed up.
I wish I'd seen any evidence of it. The ones I know (which granted, are the few that penetrate my skewed social bubble) are doubling down on how great it's going to be. Even the people being interviewed in the "Trump voter surprised that they might lose their healthcare" articles don't really seem cognizant that they've screwed up.
posted by Candleman at 3:08 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
I wish I'd seen any evidence of it. The ones I know (which granted, are the few that penetrate my skewed social bubble) are doubling down on how great it's going to be. Even the people being interviewed in the "Trump voter surprised that they might lose their healthcare" articles don't really seem cognizant that they've screwed up.
posted by Candleman at 3:08 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Kasich' senior strategist again.
@JWGOP:
I don't care if you are libertarian, vegetarian, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Socialist, or what. Resist together! Band together.
posted by chris24 at 3:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [18 favorites]
@JWGOP:
I don't care if you are libertarian, vegetarian, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Socialist, or what. Resist together! Band together.
posted by chris24 at 3:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [18 favorites]
Why did Chuck Todd never mention such unusual behavior during the campaign?
Are you familiar with Chuck Todd
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
Are you familiar with Chuck Todd
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm getting to be buddies with the staff at Graham's office. I call up and I'm, like, "Tell the Senator not to take any smack from Donald Trump! Tell the Senator that Donald Trump must be kept from selling out the country! Tell the Senator to protect NATO! Tell the Senator I love his outfit!"
posted by octobersurprise at 3:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 3:24 PM on December 31, 2016 [40 favorites]
An interesting story here in which Trump throws the author of a negative biography of him, along with David Koch, off the golf course at his West Palm Beach club!
posted by zachlipton at 3:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
Trump throws the author of a negative biography of him, along with David Koch, off the golf course at his West Palm Beach club!
The man's so thin-skinned a cotton ball could cut him. Part of me suspects, from my own experience with arrogant and entitled people, that there is (or at some point was) some genuine insecurity under all that bluster. But another part thinks he's just a bully and a narcissist who wants to isolate himself from things and people he doesn't want to hear with a pulpit and a lifetime of enablers to give him his way out of toadying/fear/thinking they can get something out of him if they play to his tune long enough.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:59 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
The man's so thin-skinned a cotton ball could cut him. Part of me suspects, from my own experience with arrogant and entitled people, that there is (or at some point was) some genuine insecurity under all that bluster. But another part thinks he's just a bully and a narcissist who wants to isolate himself from things and people he doesn't want to hear with a pulpit and a lifetime of enablers to give him his way out of toadying/fear/thinking they can get something out of him if they play to his tune long enough.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:59 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Candleman: “I wish I'd seen any evidence of it. The ones I know (which granted, are the few that penetrate my skewed social bubble) are doubling down on how great it's going to be.”The Trumpists in my circles are positively giddy while they sharpen their knives waiting for inauguration day. They think they're going to get to settle old scores. The "alpha males" will be back in charge, and all of us"pajama wearers" are too soft and weak to do anything but submit. A friend-of-a-friend wrote, "Enjoy Jeff Sessions too! Playtime is over. Sanctuary cities...bye bye!!! Wall? 50 feet high!!! I haven't been this excited since the birth of my children."
Although we've been treated to hundreds of thousands of words explaining the election in racial and economic terms, given what I'm seeing I don't think that one could underestimate the contribution that toxic masculinity made to the rise of Trumpism. Many are apparently unable to understand that might makes right isn't the way "the real world" works. The only people who believe that are young men who have never met somebody bigger and stronger and middle-aged men who haven't figured out that one day they too will be old. To paraphrase Jim Wright, what is the point of civilization if it's not to protect the weak and powerless from the vicious and ruthless?
posted by ob1quixote at 4:10 PM on December 31, 2016 [54 favorites]
Many are apparently unable to understand that might makes right isn't the way "the real world" works.
We're about to run a live test case of whether this is true.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:17 PM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
We're about to run a live test case of whether this is true.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:17 PM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's not like the Republicans don't like Garland; he's a perfectly acceptable bipartisan compromise candidate.
Guys, I don't know where this sudden "Trump's Going To Nominate Garland" thing has come from, but it's not sensible. There is no way it would make sense for any Republican, even Rubio or Jeb, to nominate Garland. If they wanted to nominate a bridge building candidate, they would choose a moderate Republican justice, not a "I guess he's better than some people Obama could have picked" Democrat. No one wants this GOP side. Literally no one.
posted by corb at 4:29 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
Guys, I don't know where this sudden "Trump's Going To Nominate Garland" thing has come from, but it's not sensible. There is no way it would make sense for any Republican, even Rubio or Jeb, to nominate Garland. If they wanted to nominate a bridge building candidate, they would choose a moderate Republican justice, not a "I guess he's better than some people Obama could have picked" Democrat. No one wants this GOP side. Literally no one.
posted by corb at 4:29 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
Basically the best we can hope for is it's someone old or accident prone.
posted by Artw at 4:35 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:35 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
From NYT yesterday: How Russians Pay to Play in Other Countries
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:38 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:38 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is no way it would make sense for any Republican, even Rubio or Jeb, to nominate Garland.
This is true, but Trump ISN'T A REPUBLICAN. Trump is TRUMP.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:39 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is true, but Trump ISN'T A REPUBLICAN. Trump is TRUMP.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:39 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Age is a factor in the Heritage list, they're all pretty much in their 50s. The surest thing about the entire Trump administration is there will be no compromise picks. The right has targeted SCOTUS for 40 years, and learned lessons with "failed" picks like Souter. They're determined to get it right from now on. Another Scalia or Alito is the best case scenario.
Meanwhile SCOTUS wasn't even a campaign issue by the Democrats.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:41 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile SCOTUS wasn't even a campaign issue by the Democrats.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:41 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
As I said above, he's an agent of chaos ... but I don't think nominating Garland would be the right kind of chaos. I'm going to go with an acquaintance, a business partner, or Milo Yiannopoulos.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I should have written overestimate, not under. I haven't even had a drink. I appreciate y'all knowing what I meant.
posted by ob1quixote at 4:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 4:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Guys, I don't know where this sudden "Trump's Going To Nominate Garland" thing has come from, but it's not sensible.
Yeah, gotta back up corb here, that supposition is downright weird.
Upon preview:
I'm going to go with an acquaintance, a business partner, or Milo Yiannopoulos.
Yep, like that.
posted by mordax at 4:43 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, gotta back up corb here, that supposition is downright weird.
Upon preview:
I'm going to go with an acquaintance, a business partner, or Milo Yiannopoulos.
Yep, like that.
posted by mordax at 4:43 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
The only people who believe that are young men who have never met somebody bigger and stronger and middle-aged men who haven't figured out that one day they too will be old.
You must not know a lot of old people.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:43 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
You must not know a lot of old people.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:43 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think nominating Garland would be the right kind of chaos. I'm going to go with an acquaintance, a business partner, or Milo Yiannopoulos.
Or Vladimir Putin! I don't see any requirement for a Supreme Court Judge to be a US citizen; they're out of the line of succession.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:44 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or Vladimir Putin! I don't see any requirement for a Supreme Court Judge to be a US citizen; they're out of the line of succession.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:44 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Federal Judge Halts Obamacare Transgender, Abortion-Related Protections Nationwide
The Health and Human Services (HHS) regulation “forbids discriminating on the basis of ‘gender identity’ and ‘termination of pregnancy’” under Obamacare, as US District Court Judge Reed O’Connor wrote in his opinion halting enforcement of those provisions in the rule.
Ladies and gentlemen, your next Supreme Court Justice.
posted by hangashore at 4:44 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Health and Human Services (HHS) regulation “forbids discriminating on the basis of ‘gender identity’ and ‘termination of pregnancy’” under Obamacare, as US District Court Judge Reed O’Connor wrote in his opinion halting enforcement of those provisions in the rule.
Ladies and gentlemen, your next Supreme Court Justice.
posted by hangashore at 4:44 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
"But time is not on the Trump camp’s side here. For one thing, note that Trump has now agreed to sit for an intelligence briefing on the evidence of Russian interference, which itself shows he now recognizes the need to pretend to want to be informed of the facts about this matter.
The need...to pretend...to want...to be informed of the facts. Wowee zowee, we are in for some aerobatic feats of normalization.
To be fair, this is from an Opinion piece and is pure speculation. It is a good guess but that is all it is.
posted by futz at 4:47 PM on December 31, 2016
The need...to pretend...to want...to be informed of the facts. Wowee zowee, we are in for some aerobatic feats of normalization.
To be fair, this is from an Opinion piece and is pure speculation. It is a good guess but that is all it is.
posted by futz at 4:47 PM on December 31, 2016
This is true, but Trump ISN'T A REPUBLICAN. Trump is TRUMP.
Huh? Even if Obama had nominated the most hardcore conservative Republican judge in the history of the world, Trump would still nominate someone else just because Obama had picked him. He's that petty. He has to win and to dominate. You don't win and dominate by using the other guy's plan, no matter how sensible. You see this all the time at movie studios. If you have a movie in development before a new studio head starts, it's often dead. No one wants the "tainted" project from the "loser" that got fired. This is how these guys think. I'd say there's a non-zero chance he does petty things like rename Mt. Denali back to Mt. McKinley just to stomp on every bit of Obama's legacy.
posted by bluecore at 4:49 PM on December 31, 2016 [21 favorites]
Huh? Even if Obama had nominated the most hardcore conservative Republican judge in the history of the world, Trump would still nominate someone else just because Obama had picked him. He's that petty. He has to win and to dominate. You don't win and dominate by using the other guy's plan, no matter how sensible. You see this all the time at movie studios. If you have a movie in development before a new studio head starts, it's often dead. No one wants the "tainted" project from the "loser" that got fired. This is how these guys think. I'd say there's a non-zero chance he does petty things like rename Mt. Denali back to Mt. McKinley just to stomp on every bit of Obama's legacy.
posted by bluecore at 4:49 PM on December 31, 2016 [21 favorites]
This is true, but Trump ISN'T A REPUBLICAN. Trump is TRUMP.
And nothing that trump has done indicates that he would offer an olive branch; even one that he himself had chewed on. He takes too much glee in "winning' and rubbing it in the faces of his 'haters'.
posted by futz at 4:55 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
And nothing that trump has done indicates that he would offer an olive branch; even one that he himself had chewed on. He takes too much glee in "winning' and rubbing it in the faces of his 'haters'.
posted by futz at 4:55 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
At least 35 killed, 40 wounded in Istanbul nightclub 'terror attack': official
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:56 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:56 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm very disturbed by how conservatives and the fascist right especially have managed to recruit a frightening number of young and comparatively young people, brought them together in hate-filled echo chambers like the_donald, and radicalized them. People like Milo are unfortunately successful at what they set out to do and I suspect what their part in the larger organism is - popularize and spread their views with the young, especially (but not exclusively) young white men.
Their politicians and potential justices are also on average younger than ours, although we do have some new blood of our own and I'm cautious but hopeful to see what they can do.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:58 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Their politicians and potential justices are also on average younger than ours, although we do have some new blood of our own and I'm cautious but hopeful to see what they can do.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 4:58 PM on December 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
To clarify a little, I'm more referring to the newer politicians recruited by the Tea Party, who IIRC are on the younger side (i.e, Ted Cruz).
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:02 PM on December 31, 2016
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:02 PM on December 31, 2016
Oh my. I did not realize our nukes were on high alert to begin with. This seems like a very sensible thing to do, all things considered: Obama Urged to Take U.S. Nukes Off High Alert Before Trump Takes Office
On that note, happy new year's, I guess ...
posted by StrawberryPie at 5:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
On that note, happy new year's, I guess ...
posted by StrawberryPie at 5:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
This is true, but Trump ISN'T A REPUBLICAN.
Trump is a Republican. He ran in the Republican primaries. He got the most primary votes as a Republican. He was nominated at the Republican convention. He has been endorsed by every prominent Republican politician. He was voted President by the Republicans.
Never let anyone forget. Trump is a Republican. Republicans own Trump and everything Trump says and does.
posted by JackFlash at 5:38 PM on December 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
Trump is a Republican. He ran in the Republican primaries. He got the most primary votes as a Republican. He was nominated at the Republican convention. He has been endorsed by every prominent Republican politician. He was voted President by the Republicans.
Never let anyone forget. Trump is a Republican. Republicans own Trump and everything Trump says and does.
posted by JackFlash at 5:38 PM on December 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
It's time for a new year. A year of promise. A year of…
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:38 PM on December 31, 2016
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:38 PM on December 31, 2016
I guess they've been on high alert for, like, ever? Here is some background info from the Union of Concerned Scientists. Noteworthy facts: GWB and Obama both promised to go off hair-trigger status during their respective 2000 and 2008 campaigns. Also, there is a safety switch in silos intended to prevent launch when, for example, maintenance crews are in there. I understand why that's important and necessary, but there's also something darkly comic about it, as if a workplace accident is the worst thing that could happen in a nuclear war.
Someone with more expertise than me should comment on this, but I believe India and Pakistan may have taken step steps away from hair-trigger-land, going so far as to store their weapons disassembled.
posted by compartment at 5:46 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Someone with more expertise than me should comment on this, but I believe India and Pakistan may have taken step steps away from hair-trigger-land, going so far as to store their weapons disassembled.
posted by compartment at 5:46 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
And 2016 decided to have one last stab and kill Father Mulcahy.
posted by Talez at 5:55 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Talez at 5:55 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
Part of me suspects, from my own experience with arrogant and entitled people, that there is (or at some point was) some genuine insecurity under all that bluster. But another part thinks he's just a bully and a narcissist who wants to isolate himself from things and people he doesn't want to hear with a pulpit and a lifetime of enablers to give him his way out of toadying/fear/thinking they can get something out of him if they play to his tune long enough.
These things aren't mutually exclusive. People with personality disorders can be genuinely suffering, and usually are terribly insecure at the same time they are abusing the people around them and making others' lives hell. Ultimately you have to say it doesn't matter WHY someone's treating people badly and behaving like a toddler, they just need to stop or you need to get the hell away from them.
posted by threeturtles at 6:11 PM on December 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
These things aren't mutually exclusive. People with personality disorders can be genuinely suffering, and usually are terribly insecure at the same time they are abusing the people around them and making others' lives hell. Ultimately you have to say it doesn't matter WHY someone's treating people badly and behaving like a toddler, they just need to stop or you need to get the hell away from them.
posted by threeturtles at 6:11 PM on December 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
As Fr. Mulcahy says, "Look on the bright side: When they tell us to serve our time in Purgatory, we can say, 'No thanks, I've done mine.'"
posted by EarBucket at 6:14 PM on December 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by EarBucket at 6:14 PM on December 31, 2016 [20 favorites]
My take on Donald vis-a-vis Putin:
When you see acts of moral courage from Republicans, don't think of them as Republicans. Think of them as patriots, and give them your support.
posted by perspicio at 6:30 PM on December 31, 2016 [25 favorites]
- Donald's so deeply in bed with the Russian mob (and therefore Putin) that he'll never be free. It may have started as debt, but it's not just debt; he's a liability to them if he ever turns on them. But as long as he doesn't, he's their asset.
- However, he loves power, and fancies himself a genius. So, naturally, he doesn't want to be free of the mob, he wants to be in charge of it.
- Putin knows this, of course. But while he has Donald leashed already, he also knows that the way to keep him tame is to praise him.
- Yet there is risk to Putin, because Donald is about to become very powerful, is arguably more ruthless than Putin (by dint of being nihilistic), and is loyal only to Donald.
- Donald's praise of Putin is only partially out of admiration. Far more importantly, he identifies with Putin, and therefore assumes that Putin relishes praise the same way he, himself does.
- While Donald is enthralled with himself, he trusts nobody; therefore, while praise is desired and welcomed, it never results in anything resembling loyalty. However, it does light him up, gives him a rush, and makes him distractable and malleable.
- Putin, on the other hand, does not care one bit about praise, except inasmuch as it helps him ascertain the motivations of the praise-giver.
- Both parties' servers were hacked by Russian agents.
- Criminal organizations don't generally expose dirt except as a last resort. Dirt is leverage. They use dirt to turn the dirty.
- By hacking both, Putin was in a position to blackmail many individuals on both sides.
- Compromised individuals on both sides paid to keep their secrets hidden from the public (which explains the weak tea that was released as dirt on the DNC), but the power play was to collude with the dirtier, more compromised party, against the relatively clean one. That is where the coup took place.
- Now the RNC is in bed with Russia, the same way Trump is, making them unwilling allies, with Russia calling the shots.
- Republicans that buck the party's implicit positions on Russia, like McMuffin, Lindsey Graham, John Kasich, and John McCain, are true patriots. They may not be squeaky clean, but they know what principles are, and remember why they are important.
When you see acts of moral courage from Republicans, don't think of them as Republicans. Think of them as patriots, and give them your support.
posted by perspicio at 6:30 PM on December 31, 2016 [25 favorites]
Trump is a Republican ... He has been endorsed by every prominent Republican politician.
I agree that in any sane world Trump would have destroyed the Republican brand by now, but it's important to recognize the few Republicans who never endorsed Trump. I don't believe Jeff Flake, Ben Sasse, or Lindsey Graham ever endorsed. John Kasich never endorsed. I welcome any corrections if I am wrong or if there are any other prominent Republican officeholders that I'm overlooking.
Again, I generally agree with you and I'm not trying to split hairs. I only bring it up because I think it's important to recognize opportunities for resistance.
posted by compartment at 6:39 PM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
I agree that in any sane world Trump would have destroyed the Republican brand by now, but it's important to recognize the few Republicans who never endorsed Trump. I don't believe Jeff Flake, Ben Sasse, or Lindsey Graham ever endorsed. John Kasich never endorsed. I welcome any corrections if I am wrong or if there are any other prominent Republican officeholders that I'm overlooking.
Again, I generally agree with you and I'm not trying to split hairs. I only bring it up because I think it's important to recognize opportunities for resistance.
posted by compartment at 6:39 PM on December 31, 2016 [12 favorites]
Honestly, I'd be a lot happier to see 2016 go if 2017 wasn't fixing up to be even worse.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:40 PM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:40 PM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
Jeff Flake, Ben Sasse, or Lindsey Graham
Jeff Flake has been shedding his integrity a lot of late.
posted by jackbishop at 7:01 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Jeff Flake has been shedding his integrity a lot of late.
posted by jackbishop at 7:01 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is true, but Trump ISN'T A REPUBLICAN. Trump is TRUMP.
Yeah, so it's possible Trump could be pushed to pick a Democrat he's friends with, related to, or who flatters him enough.That's a real possibility. But Garland is neither. He's more likely to pick Kanye.
posted by corb at 7:05 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, so it's possible Trump could be pushed to pick a Democrat he's friends with, related to, or who flatters him enough.That's a real possibility. But Garland is neither. He's more likely to pick Kanye.
posted by corb at 7:05 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
When you see acts of moral courage from Republicans, don't think of them as Republicans. Think of them as patriots, and give them your support.
right after pigs fly.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:08 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
right after pigs fly.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:08 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
right after pigs fly.
You have seen Egg McMuffin on Twitter right? Kasich's staff isn't warming to him. Rick Wilson is still very much on the anti-Trump train. Tom Nichols, Metafilter's own corb. They're all card carrying republicans previously.
posted by Talez at 7:17 PM on December 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
You have seen Egg McMuffin on Twitter right? Kasich's staff isn't warming to him. Rick Wilson is still very much on the anti-Trump train. Tom Nichols, Metafilter's own corb. They're all card carrying republicans previously.
posted by Talez at 7:17 PM on December 31, 2016 [17 favorites]
> don't think of them as Republicans. Think of them as patriots
I'd argue that it would be important to think of them as Republicans who acted as patriots.
For once, when it matters, and when it may come with a personal cost to them.
posted by porpoise at 7:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'd argue that it would be important to think of them as Republicans who acted as patriots.
For once, when it matters, and when it may come with a personal cost to them.
posted by porpoise at 7:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [13 favorites]
Even GI Joe and Cobra would team up to fight a greater threat, like drug dealers or whatever.
posted by ian1977 at 7:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 7:19 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
True enough, porpoise.
Think of them as erstwhile Republicans currently acting as patriots, and give them your support, for now.
posted by perspicio at 7:28 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Think of them as erstwhile Republicans currently acting as patriots, and give them your support, for now.
posted by perspicio at 7:28 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I just want them to be sure, because it's a pretty serious charge, and I want them to be sure. If you look at the weapons of mass destruction, that was a disaster, and they were wrong. And so I want them to be sure. I think it's unfair if they don't know. And I know a lot about hacking. And hacking is a very hard thing to prove. So it could be somebody else. I also know things that other people don't know, and so they cannot be sure of the situation."
When asked what Trump knows that other people don't know, Trump responded, "You'll find out on Tuesday or Wednesday."
Going to hazard a guess that we are not going to find out on Tuesday or Wednesday. Instead he will tweet "Advice to my haters and enemies: lethal fallout levels can travel upwards of 300 miles from Ground Zero. Sad!"and we will talk about that instead.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:54 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
When asked what Trump knows that other people don't know, Trump responded, "You'll find out on Tuesday or Wednesday."
Going to hazard a guess that we are not going to find out on Tuesday or Wednesday. Instead he will tweet "Advice to my haters and enemies: lethal fallout levels can travel upwards of 300 miles from Ground Zero. Sad!"and we will talk about that instead.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:54 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump: I 'know things that other people don't know' about hacking
"If you look at the weapons of mass destruction, that was a disaster, and they were wrong. And so I want them to be sure," he continued.
"I think it's unfair if they don't know. And I know a lot about hacking. And hacking is a very hard thing to prove. So it could be somebody else."
"I also know things that other people don't know, and so they cannot be sure of the situation," Trump responded when asked why he doubts intelligence reports of Russian hacking, according to a pool reporter.
When asked what Trump knows that other people don't know, Trump responded, "You'll find out on Tuesday or Wednesday."
posted by futz at 7:55 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
"If you look at the weapons of mass destruction, that was a disaster, and they were wrong. And so I want them to be sure," he continued.
"I think it's unfair if they don't know. And I know a lot about hacking. And hacking is a very hard thing to prove. So it could be somebody else."
"I also know things that other people don't know, and so they cannot be sure of the situation," Trump responded when asked why he doubts intelligence reports of Russian hacking, according to a pool reporter.
When asked what Trump knows that other people don't know, Trump responded, "You'll find out on Tuesday or Wednesday."
posted by futz at 7:55 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Agreed. I have zero problem agreeing and working with people who are rational and sane. I don't care if someone wearing a KKK outfit, if their actions and intentions are sound.
I just wanted to point out that merely rejecting Donald isn't sufficient; I'm not Catholic.
You know, Donald's full name is Donald John Trump.
Yeah yeah, I know, it takes a little longer to type it out but if Donald/Donny had a problem with his parents, well, Donald John Trump is a LITTLE loser who can't DEAL with REALITY, his dad would criticize. WEAK! TRUSTING!
Donald John Trump, you did *not* *just* *do* *that*.
[That's a paddlin']
posted by porpoise at 7:57 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I just wanted to point out that merely rejecting Donald isn't sufficient; I'm not Catholic.
You know, Donald's full name is Donald John Trump.
Yeah yeah, I know, it takes a little longer to type it out but if Donald/Donny had a problem with his parents, well, Donald John Trump is a LITTLE loser who can't DEAL with REALITY, his dad would criticize. WEAK! TRUSTING!
Donald John Trump, you did *not* *just* *do* *that*.
[That's a paddlin']
posted by porpoise at 7:57 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't care if someone wearing a KKK outfit, if their actions and intentions are sound.
I know, right? Like, why are people so het up at the guy wearing the NAMBLA shirt on the way to his job as an elementary school teacher? Sure, some of them have molested children, but I've got a good feeling about this one!
i am aware that this is basically a Louis CK joke. point stands tho.
posted by stet at 8:07 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know, right? Like, why are people so het up at the guy wearing the NAMBLA shirt on the way to his job as an elementary school teacher? Sure, some of them have molested children, but I've got a good feeling about this one!
i am aware that this is basically a Louis CK joke. point stands tho.
posted by stet at 8:07 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trump's solution to cyberattacks: Send info via courier
"I don't care what they say, no computer is safe. I have a boy who's 10 years old, he can do anything with a computer. You want something to really go without detection, write it out and have it sent by courier," Trump reiterated
Wonder if this means he'll give up his precious android phone.
posted by futz at 8:07 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
"I don't care what they say, no computer is safe. I have a boy who's 10 years old, he can do anything with a computer. You want something to really go without detection, write it out and have it sent by courier," Trump reiterated
Wonder if this means he'll give up his precious android phone.
posted by futz at 8:07 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm picturing this Dickensian twitter workhouse of ragged orphans scurrying about with Trump's tweets scrawled on scraps of paper.
I know that wasn't what he meant when he said he had a 10-year old boy, but that's what my brain did.
posted by bibliowench at 8:13 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
I know that wasn't what he meant when he said he had a 10-year old boy, but that's what my brain did.
posted by bibliowench at 8:13 PM on December 31, 2016 [10 favorites]
Wearing a KKK outfit is an action. ???
posted by XtinaS at 8:16 PM on December 31, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 8:16 PM on December 31, 2016 [21 favorites]
"I just want them to be sure, because it's a pretty serious charge, and I want them to be sure.
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, what is going on here? Is he stepping back from the hard "Give me a break, it's not them" position? Because this is looking like a tiny opening to being able to say "I've thought this through and it's them" later.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:20 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, what is going on here? Is he stepping back from the hard "Give me a break, it's not them" position? Because this is looking like a tiny opening to being able to say "I've thought this through and it's them" later.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:20 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
just shut the fuck up donny.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:29 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:29 PM on December 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trump's solution to cyberattacks: Send info via courier
That will create a lot of jobs, delivering hard copies of @realDonaldTrump tweets several times a day to every American.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:32 PM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
That will create a lot of jobs, delivering hard copies of @realDonaldTrump tweets several times a day to every American.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:32 PM on December 31, 2016 [9 favorites]
guy wearing the NAMBLA shirt
If they're helping me (to effectively) fight the fire that's burning the town down right now? Sure, I will fucking cooperate with them, and appreciate their collective cooperation, even knowing that they'll try to set me on fire once the fire that threatens everyone is put out.
posted by porpoise at 8:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
If they're helping me (to effectively) fight the fire that's burning the town down right now? Sure, I will fucking cooperate with them, and appreciate their collective cooperation, even knowing that they'll try to set me on fire once the fire that threatens everyone is put out.
posted by porpoise at 8:42 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's how he's gonna build the wall: Out of stacks of old paper messages sent by via courier. Smart.
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ultimately you have to say it doesn't matter WHY someone's treating people badly and behaving like a toddler, they just need to stop or you need to get the hell away from them.
Trump went past the point of any pity or sympathy I could have mustered for him long ago. I suspect he's the result of what happens when such a person is coddled and enabled and never told no, at least not in any way which sticks. So he thinks he's entitled to yes wherever he goes, and if he hears no the person is obviously wrong and stupid and Sad!™ and therefore not worth listening to.
On the other hand, I found out today that my favorite guitarist released a song mocking Cheeto Hitler. I am pleased by that.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:45 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Trump went past the point of any pity or sympathy I could have mustered for him long ago. I suspect he's the result of what happens when such a person is coddled and enabled and never told no, at least not in any way which sticks. So he thinks he's entitled to yes wherever he goes, and if he hears no the person is obviously wrong and stupid and Sad!™ and therefore not worth listening to.
On the other hand, I found out today that my favorite guitarist released a song mocking Cheeto Hitler. I am pleased by that.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:45 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
i am interested in guitarists who release songs mocking Cheeto Hitler.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:47 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:47 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here's the song. Apparently it was released before he ran, but it nails Donald pretty well.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:52 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 8:52 PM on December 31, 2016 [8 favorites]
The 80's had powder cocaine to help rich assholes feel good about themselves.
The 90's had crack cocaine to keep rich assholes rich and criminalize several generations of African Americans.
The 2000's have reintroduced Heroin and opiates to all ethnic groups.
The 2010's gave marginalized non-Urban Americans equality in addiction with meth/opiates/synthetic-opiates.
And post 2016, the Trump Administration is going to get rid of all of that, right? No more meth! No more opiates (heroin, fentanyl, carfentanyl)! No more hopelessness! Just get rid of it and it's not a problem, right? /s
Eh. 2016 still has lots of cocaine-fueled assholes, apparently.
posted by porpoise at 8:54 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
The 90's had crack cocaine to keep rich assholes rich and criminalize several generations of African Americans.
The 2000's have reintroduced Heroin and opiates to all ethnic groups.
The 2010's gave marginalized non-Urban Americans equality in addiction with meth/opiates/synthetic-opiates.
And post 2016, the Trump Administration is going to get rid of all of that, right? No more meth! No more opiates (heroin, fentanyl, carfentanyl)! No more hopelessness! Just get rid of it and it's not a problem, right? /s
Eh. 2016 still has lots of cocaine-fueled assholes, apparently.
posted by porpoise at 8:54 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
all drugs cease to exist on jan 20.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, I found out today that my favorite guitarist released a song mocking Cheeto Hitler. I am pleased by that.
I'll choose to be happy for you, because I just found out one of my favorite comedians is totally in the tank for Trump, to the point of gloating about it ad nauseam on YouTube. Boo.
posted by Rykey at 9:16 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'll choose to be happy for you, because I just found out one of my favorite comedians is totally in the tank for Trump, to the point of gloating about it ad nauseam on YouTube. Boo.
posted by Rykey at 9:16 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
that comedian is obviously first in line to star on a sitcom for NBC OR Fox...
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:34 PM on December 31, 2016
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:34 PM on December 31, 2016
Who, Rykey?
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:34 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:34 PM on December 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Guys, did you know that there's a point where the percentage of brandy is so much greater than the percentage of eggnog, that the eggnog will curdle? Also, if you live in rural Texas, tonight sounds like war has begun? City morons come out and stand in cattle fields to shoot their rockets, farmers fire shotguns at said idiots, someone calls the cops, and in the meantime, it's happening in every goddamn direction. It is rockets red glare, bombs bursting in midair, sirens and klaxons galore.
I'm thinking I should just give up on eggnog at this point...
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:46 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm thinking I should just give up on eggnog at this point...
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:46 PM on December 31, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm thinking I should just give up on eggnog at this point...
I love this comment but reading about the eggnog is making my stomach curdle at the moment. Please find another non-nog nog!
posted by futz at 9:52 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I love this comment but reading about the eggnog is making my stomach curdle at the moment. Please find another non-nog nog!
posted by futz at 9:52 PM on December 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, what is going on here? Is he stepping back from the hard...
Who knows and that is the problem. He has an incurable case of verbal diarrhea and the media is there to scoop up the leakage with their fame-seeking ratings hungry beaks and regurgitate it back to the public like mama & daddy birds. He is so freaking fickle that there is no insight to be had from one comment to the next. Did someone look at him wrong throuh the TV? Did an adult get through to him for 5 seconds? Did someone praise him and win his respect until lunch was over? Did he get distracted by something shiny and gaudy? Did one of the anti-theft devices on his Trump Trousers poke him in a sensitive area? Was his trumpness not orange enough that day? Did a tweet brush against his thin skin? Did cnn post a double chin pic? Perhaps putin wrassled a mountain lion in leather chaps and the PEOTUS got a semi?
Who the hell knows but I am not buying what he is effluvium.
posted by futz at 10:01 PM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
Who knows and that is the problem. He has an incurable case of verbal diarrhea and the media is there to scoop up the leakage with their fame-seeking ratings hungry beaks and regurgitate it back to the public like mama & daddy birds. He is so freaking fickle that there is no insight to be had from one comment to the next. Did someone look at him wrong throuh the TV? Did an adult get through to him for 5 seconds? Did someone praise him and win his respect until lunch was over? Did he get distracted by something shiny and gaudy? Did one of the anti-theft devices on his Trump Trousers poke him in a sensitive area? Was his trumpness not orange enough that day? Did a tweet brush against his thin skin? Did cnn post a double chin pic? Perhaps putin wrassled a mountain lion in leather chaps and the PEOTUS got a semi?
Who the hell knows but I am not buying what he is effluvium.
posted by futz at 10:01 PM on December 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
Lyme Drop: Will Franken [Totally NSFW]. He's pretty unknown, but one of the most original standups I've seen, so I was pretty bummed when I noticed the pro-Trump post-election rants on his page the other day.
posted by Rykey at 10:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 10:06 PM on December 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, if you live in rural Texas, tonight sounds like war has begun
This is also true of urban Texas, or at least my little corner thereof. There were so many fireworks going off on our street when we all stepped out to burn 2016 in effigy that the whole street smells faintly of gunpowder and drunken angry yelling.
It's rather nice.
posted by sciatrix at 10:09 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is also true of urban Texas, or at least my little corner thereof. There were so many fireworks going off on our street when we all stepped out to burn 2016 in effigy that the whole street smells faintly of gunpowder and drunken angry yelling.
It's rather nice.
posted by sciatrix at 10:09 PM on December 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh, lord, Trump really likes re-tweeting now, huh?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:10 PM on December 31, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:10 PM on December 31, 2016
The latest series of re-tweets all appear to be non-Android.
posted by christopherious at 12:02 AM on January 1, 2017
posted by christopherious at 12:02 AM on January 1, 2017
tweetle dumb, first of his name...
Winter is coming January 20th.
posted by futz at 12:04 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
Winter is coming January 20th.
posted by futz at 12:04 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
Winter is coming January 20th.
Where is Tyrion Lannister when we need him?
"We've had vicious presidents and we've had idiot presidents, but l don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot for a president."
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:19 AM on January 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
Where is Tyrion Lannister when we need him?
"We've had vicious presidents and we've had idiot presidents, but l don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot for a president."
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:19 AM on January 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
RE SCOTUS: I was surprised that W. picked Alito over Ted Olson. But Trump probably isn't that savvy. And Olson is 76. Just the same, while marriage equality might have been a bridge too far for W. (Olson supported the reforms), I think Trump can get away with hand-waving at it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:08 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:08 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
IMRL, whenever somebody brings up something Donny said or did and makes a single gesture toward scrying its literal meaning, we have a few simple, short responses to curtail that shit.
"You're doing it again." Or just, "You're doing it."
"Laser pointer." (You know, because cats.)
I feel like we need something like that. I feel like we're too far down the road to still be wasting time and energy reacting to the latest instance in a ceaseless stream of gaslighting/trolling/bullshit. If you don't know by now that the primary reason, and very frequently the only reason, Donny does anything is to capture your attention, then you are his subject.
It's not that there can be no value in examination and reading between the lines. But the tendency to offer open-ended, "Donny said X. It's absurd! Why would he do that?!" is, itself, the reason he did that. He is a purposeful narcissist. He wants your attention, and he wants your bewilderment.
posted by perspicio at 4:52 AM on January 1, 2017 [31 favorites]
"You're doing it again." Or just, "You're doing it."
"Laser pointer." (You know, because cats.)
I feel like we need something like that. I feel like we're too far down the road to still be wasting time and energy reacting to the latest instance in a ceaseless stream of gaslighting/trolling/bullshit. If you don't know by now that the primary reason, and very frequently the only reason, Donny does anything is to capture your attention, then you are his subject.
It's not that there can be no value in examination and reading between the lines. But the tendency to offer open-ended, "Donny said X. It's absurd! Why would he do that?!" is, itself, the reason he did that. He is a purposeful narcissist. He wants your attention, and he wants your bewilderment.
posted by perspicio at 4:52 AM on January 1, 2017 [31 favorites]
He wants your attention, and he wants your bewilderment.
I mean, that's the whole thing, isn't it? He says we should start a new arms race -- is he trolling (ignore it) or in earnest (mobilize the opposition)?
A Trump fan will generally insist he's just trolling except about the particular outrageous things that particular Trump fan actually approves of, which are different from person to person. Some hope he is serious about building that wall and not about dismantling Obamacare. Some hope he is serious about dismantling Obamacare but not building the wall...
Those of us who like to imagine ourselves as a part of "the resistance" (I include myself in this category) feel compelled to take all of it seriously, including "bomb the shit out if them" and "take the oil" and "torture works" and all the rest. Because if we assuming it's "just posturing" (just "locker room talk") then we will be unprepared when and if he follows through.
Is it a joke or a threat? That's the ambiguity that the alt right as a whole exploits. The whole chan culture is about threats that might be jokes and jokes that might be threats. Rape threats and death threats that are "just trolling" until a SWAT team or a gunman who didn't get the joke shows up at your house (like the Pizzagate guy or the Planned Parenrhood shooter.)
Like Fred Clark says, it's just live action role playing until all of the sudden it's real. Until you take it too far, and someone dies. (Seriously, read that link. It's good, and scary.)
I'm not sure it's all that different from how the original Nazis nerved themselves up to do what they did. Or the Klan with the masks that made them anonymous, that disconnected their Klan identity from their "real" identity... It's just a show of strength, a prank, just scaring people... haha freaked you out... until all the sudden it's real. And no one knows when that will be. Not even the "pranksters" themselves. Because they don't know who is taking them seriously and might be armed ("stochastic terrorism") and they can't even be sure that the parts they think are jokes are just jokes and the parts they think are serious are actually serious... They don't kniw who they're fooling and they can't be sure if they're being fooled.
So yeah, in some ways, taking it seriously is playing into their hands. They love it. "Haha, loook how freaked out you are! We got you good!" And it does make an effective distraction, a live (armed or not?) grenade thrown in the wrong direction to distract from the bigger bombs they are assembling. But we can't just ignore it.
Because we don't know which parts will become real or when. And neither do they
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:26 AM on January 1, 2017 [96 favorites]
I mean, that's the whole thing, isn't it? He says we should start a new arms race -- is he trolling (ignore it) or in earnest (mobilize the opposition)?
A Trump fan will generally insist he's just trolling except about the particular outrageous things that particular Trump fan actually approves of, which are different from person to person. Some hope he is serious about building that wall and not about dismantling Obamacare. Some hope he is serious about dismantling Obamacare but not building the wall...
Those of us who like to imagine ourselves as a part of "the resistance" (I include myself in this category) feel compelled to take all of it seriously, including "bomb the shit out if them" and "take the oil" and "torture works" and all the rest. Because if we assuming it's "just posturing" (just "locker room talk") then we will be unprepared when and if he follows through.
Is it a joke or a threat? That's the ambiguity that the alt right as a whole exploits. The whole chan culture is about threats that might be jokes and jokes that might be threats. Rape threats and death threats that are "just trolling" until a SWAT team or a gunman who didn't get the joke shows up at your house (like the Pizzagate guy or the Planned Parenrhood shooter.)
Like Fred Clark says, it's just live action role playing until all of the sudden it's real. Until you take it too far, and someone dies. (Seriously, read that link. It's good, and scary.)
I'm not sure it's all that different from how the original Nazis nerved themselves up to do what they did. Or the Klan with the masks that made them anonymous, that disconnected their Klan identity from their "real" identity... It's just a show of strength, a prank, just scaring people... haha freaked you out... until all the sudden it's real. And no one knows when that will be. Not even the "pranksters" themselves. Because they don't know who is taking them seriously and might be armed ("stochastic terrorism") and they can't even be sure that the parts they think are jokes are just jokes and the parts they think are serious are actually serious... They don't kniw who they're fooling and they can't be sure if they're being fooled.
So yeah, in some ways, taking it seriously is playing into their hands. They love it. "Haha, loook how freaked out you are! We got you good!" And it does make an effective distraction, a live (armed or not?) grenade thrown in the wrong direction to distract from the bigger bombs they are assembling. But we can't just ignore it.
Because we don't know which parts will become real or when. And neither do they
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:26 AM on January 1, 2017 [96 favorites]
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's a choice between belief that he's trolling or just posturing vs. believing what he says. It's a joke and a threat. I'm not saying to ignore it. By all means, bring it to the table. But I'm also saying that there's a certain kind of OMG response that indicates that a person has lapsed into enthrallment with the thing said. Once in a while, for a moment, ok, a person needs to shake their head and have a WTF moment. But still, bring it back around real quick, ok? Stay sharp. Poking a person into alertness would be the purpose of the shorthand response.
On the whole, election thread participants aren't too bad about these laspes at this point. But sometimes we are.
posted by perspicio at 5:37 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
On the whole, election thread participants aren't too bad about these laspes at this point. But sometimes we are.
posted by perspicio at 5:37 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I immediately pegged that Mumbai picture as a fake myself but once again reality is far worse and more surreal than our imaginations.
posted by octothorpe at 7:18 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 7:18 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
This juxtaposition is all too scary.
Reminds me of this Margaret Bourke-White photo she took in Louisville, KY in 1937
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:19 AM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
Reminds me of this Margaret Bourke-White photo she took in Louisville, KY in 1937
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:19 AM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
We're doomed.
@BillKristol:
2017 forecast: President Trump will be less consequential, for good or ill, than his fans hope or his foes fear.
posted by chris24 at 7:30 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
@BillKristol:
2017 forecast: President Trump will be less consequential, for good or ill, than his fans hope or his foes fear.
posted by chris24 at 7:30 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
With the election over, I'd like to suggest that we never quote or reference Bill Kristol again. He found some brief relevancy in his lukewarm opposition but now he's just another ghoul from a previous dystopia, and likely a milder dystopia than the one coming. His gloating tweets on the morning after the election over the sadness of the liberals in his favorite cafe really sealed the deal for me.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:41 AM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:41 AM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
Deal, but only if we can ditto for Newton Leroy Gingrich.
Re the Trump supporters who only believe the parts they particularly want to hear, do we have a clever term (a la Trump's Mirror/Razor) for that yet?
Trump's horoscope, perhaps? Trump's zodiac? Is Trump's divination too Gary Gygax-y?
posted by aspersioncast at 7:54 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Re the Trump supporters who only believe the parts they particularly want to hear, do we have a clever term (a la Trump's Mirror/Razor) for that yet?
Trump's horoscope, perhaps? Trump's zodiac? Is Trump's divination too Gary Gygax-y?
posted by aspersioncast at 7:54 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
in the trump kaleidoscope you can see anything you want to see
posted by localhuman at 8:00 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by localhuman at 8:00 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
Having been to large cities in India, I think that photo might be Photoshopped. There's way more squalor and human misery there than that.
posted by Rykey at 8:09 AM on January 1, 2017
posted by Rykey at 8:09 AM on January 1, 2017
Trump's Haruspicy
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:19 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:19 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that was sarcasm.
posted by Rykey at 8:22 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 8:22 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Trump's Haruspicy
Looking for meaning in his more mystifying tweets really does feel like staring at a goat's liver and trying to figure out if that lump corresponds to the markings on this little bronze model
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:23 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Looking for meaning in his more mystifying tweets really does feel like staring at a goat's liver and trying to figure out if that lump corresponds to the markings on this little bronze model
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:23 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that was sarcasm.
That's what /s is for.
posted by Talez at 9:06 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's what /s is for.
posted by Talez at 9:06 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
@BillKristol:
2017 forecast: President Trump will be less consequential
Bill Kristol, Conrad Black. Conrad Bla- oh you know each other? Excellent! Well, we'll leave you to it then.
*ka-chunk*
posted by petebest at 9:16 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
2017 forecast: President Trump will be less consequential
Bill Kristol, Conrad Black. Conrad Bla- oh you know each other? Excellent! Well, we'll leave you to it then.
*ka-chunk*
posted by petebest at 9:16 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
More Kristolschlock: The Sad State of Neoconservative Thought: A Tale in One Tweet
In his 2017 prediction that we will increasingly “appreciate the case for (liberal) empire,” Kristol highlights an infamous fourteen year-old apologia for a tyrannical, illiberal, racist, fictional Nazi space empire.posted by tonycpsu at 9:25 AM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
I can’t imagine how neoconservative intellectuals lost their party to Trumpism.
Has Kristol ever been not-wrong about anything at all? If he predicted the sun would rise tomorrow, I'd be inclined to pack a flashlight when leaving for work.
posted by Grangousier at 9:40 AM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:40 AM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Trump: I 'know things that other people don't know' about hacking
The Dude abides: new shit has come to light
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:04 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
The Dude abides: new shit has come to light
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:04 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm not saying it's a choice between belief that he's trolling or just posturing vs. believing what he says. It's a joke and a threat. I'm not saying to ignore it. By all means, bring it to the table. But I'm also saying that there's a certain kind of OMG response that indicates that a person has lapsed into enthrallment with the thing said.
Exactly. At a certain point, everyone in the opposition - Democrats, liberals, progressive, the news media - is going to have to stop paying so much attention to Trump's ever-distracting tweets simply because that means surrendering the initiative to him and conceding a reactive role.
Objectively, to put Trump into broader context, he's quite vulnerable politically. His average favorable rating remains under 50 percent - currently a poor 43 percent, with 49 percent viewing him unfavorably - a historical low. On top of that, the GOP's congressional agenda is similarly unpopular. Concentrating on a few especially susceptible targets, such as Trump's Russian ties and tax plans or the GOP's intentions for the AMA and Social Security, is something that can break free from the outrage cycle they keep feeding. There's a real window of opportunity for a resistance movement to come together in order to take Trump on and take him down.
Saul Alinksy's advice to "pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it" has rarely been more apt.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:13 AM on January 1, 2017 [28 favorites]
Exactly. At a certain point, everyone in the opposition - Democrats, liberals, progressive, the news media - is going to have to stop paying so much attention to Trump's ever-distracting tweets simply because that means surrendering the initiative to him and conceding a reactive role.
Objectively, to put Trump into broader context, he's quite vulnerable politically. His average favorable rating remains under 50 percent - currently a poor 43 percent, with 49 percent viewing him unfavorably - a historical low. On top of that, the GOP's congressional agenda is similarly unpopular. Concentrating on a few especially susceptible targets, such as Trump's Russian ties and tax plans or the GOP's intentions for the AMA and Social Security, is something that can break free from the outrage cycle they keep feeding. There's a real window of opportunity for a resistance movement to come together in order to take Trump on and take him down.
Saul Alinksy's advice to "pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it" has rarely been more apt.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:13 AM on January 1, 2017 [28 favorites]
This very interesting article about how the Trump campaign possibly targeted low information voters might not make a difference, except in describing methodology, but it did lead me to a wonderful term to describe something we've seen happening a lot: The need for cognition
posted by Brainy at 10:15 AM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Brainy at 10:15 AM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
Painfully eponysterical, Brainy.
posted by bibliowench at 10:26 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by bibliowench at 10:26 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
An interesting story here in which Trump throws the author of a negative biography of him, along with David Koch, off the golf course at his West Palm Beach club!
Tiger Beat on the Potomac has has a fuller rundown of this little moment that encapsulates our future. It's really a terrifying harbinger of things to come. A petty, thin skinned man with nearly unlimited power is less than 3 weeks away from being able to take revenge on all his enemies. We're all uninvited guests on Trump's golf course now.
posted by dis_integration at 10:27 AM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Tiger Beat on the Potomac has has a fuller rundown of this little moment that encapsulates our future. It's really a terrifying harbinger of things to come. A petty, thin skinned man with nearly unlimited power is less than 3 weeks away from being able to take revenge on all his enemies. We're all uninvited guests on Trump's golf course now.
posted by dis_integration at 10:27 AM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Has Kristol ever been not-wrong about anything at all?
In the wake of Rogue One, Kristol admitted to having always rooted for the Empire. It's hard to distinguish parody from peak-Kristol.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:29 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
In the wake of Rogue One, Kristol admitted to having always rooted for the Empire. It's hard to distinguish parody from peak-Kristol.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:29 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Guy Creates Trump Inauguration Flyer We Should All Start Passing Out
posted by kirkaracha at 10:33 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:33 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
A petty, thin skinned man with nearly unlimited power is less than 3 weeks away from being able to take revenge on all his enemies.
Omarosa hints at a Donald Trump enemies list: “It’s so great our enemies are making themselves clear”
“It’s so great our enemies are making themselves clear so that when we get in to the White House, we know where we stand,” Manigault told Independent Journal Review at Trump’s election night party on Wednesday.Omarosa: Trump's haters will be forced to 'bow down' to him
...
“I would never judge anybody for exercising their right to and the freedom to choose who they want. But let me just tell you, Mr. Trump has a long memory and we’re keeping a list.”
“Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to President Trump,” she said. "It’s everyone who’s ever doubted Donald, who ever disagreed, who ever challenged him. It is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe.”posted by kirkaracha at 10:38 AM on January 1, 2017 [15 favorites]
Yeah, that was sarcasm.
That's what /s is for.
Right, I'll add "spend even more time decoding the labyrinthine, ever-evolving conventions of the internet" to my new year's resolutions pronto. /s
Did I do it right?
posted by Rykey at 10:45 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
That's what /s is for.
Right, I'll add "spend even more time decoding the labyrinthine, ever-evolving conventions of the internet" to my new year's resolutions pronto. /s
Did I do it right?
posted by Rykey at 10:45 AM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
What is your point in reposting those old articles without embellishment, kirkaracha? I sure hope it's this.
posted by perspicio at 10:52 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by perspicio at 10:52 AM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Manigault, Trump’s director of African-American outreach
Director! Well well. Are jodhpurs "bunchy"? What's it like to randomly yell "cut!" all day?
posted by petebest at 10:56 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Director! Well well. Are jodhpurs "bunchy"? What's it like to randomly yell "cut!" all day?
posted by petebest at 10:56 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
From the Politico article mentioned above:
Trump should understand, regardless of what the Russians did in our elections, he already won the prize. It won’t be taken away just because he admits the Russians intervened. Taking away the secrecy of Russian actions — exposing whatever it was they did, to everyone — is the only way to take away their power over the US political system and to free himself from their strings, as well. Whatever Putin’s gambit was, Trump is the one who can make sure that Putin doesn’t win.
It really would be clever of Trump to do that.
"Yeah, I won. Russia tried to help - they did this and this and this. But it didn't really help. So thanks for nothing, Puti-poot. So long, sucker!"
Except that one has the distinct feeling Trump reveres Putin and would never do anything to harm their relationship... which doesn't really make sense, as Trump's default mode seems to be fucking people over.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:10 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Trump should understand, regardless of what the Russians did in our elections, he already won the prize. It won’t be taken away just because he admits the Russians intervened. Taking away the secrecy of Russian actions — exposing whatever it was they did, to everyone — is the only way to take away their power over the US political system and to free himself from their strings, as well. Whatever Putin’s gambit was, Trump is the one who can make sure that Putin doesn’t win.
It really would be clever of Trump to do that.
"Yeah, I won. Russia tried to help - they did this and this and this. But it didn't really help. So thanks for nothing, Puti-poot. So long, sucker!"
Except that one has the distinct feeling Trump reveres Putin and would never do anything to harm their relationship... which doesn't really make sense, as Trump's default mode seems to be fucking people over.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:10 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
(On review: I apologize for questioning your motives in my last post, kirkaracha. At face value your post resembled fearmongering, and I wanted to counter that swiftly, but I also know that a motive like that would have been wholly inconsistent with the rest of your activity here.)
posted by perspicio at 11:16 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by perspicio at 11:16 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Except that one has the distinct feeling Trump reveres Putin and would never do anything to harm their relationship...
Or he's up to his quiff in Russian-mob debt.
That probably should have come out sooner. . .
posted by petebest at 11:17 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Or he's up to his quiff in Russian-mob debt.
That probably should have come out sooner. . .
posted by petebest at 11:17 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Guy Creates Trump Inauguration Flyer We Should All Start Passing Out
The Guy's Facebook page
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:21 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
The Guy's Facebook page
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:21 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
WSJ editor says calling Trump lie about 1000s of NJ Muslims celebrating 9/11 a lie risks being seen as not objective
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:32 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:32 AM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Better, apparently, to actual behave in a non-objective manner and appear to be objective then to behave in an objective manner and risk being seen as unobjective.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:36 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:36 AM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
Trump spokesman: We need to talk about ‘punishing’ Clinton for ‘trying to influence the election’
posted by futz at 11:36 AM on January 1, 2017
posted by futz at 11:36 AM on January 1, 2017
Trump spokesman: We need to talk about ‘punishing’ Clinton for ‘trying to influence the election’
Misleading headline. Spicer is trying to deflect the Russian question by saying that Clinton received the debate questions before the debate. she's not actively saying anyone is going to do anything. One of my frustrations with ThinkProgress is that they use click bait too often.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:42 AM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Misleading headline. Spicer is trying to deflect the Russian question by saying that Clinton received the debate questions before the debate. she's not actively saying anyone is going to do anything. One of my frustrations with ThinkProgress is that they use click bait too often.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:42 AM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Weak sauce. The election is over. He's going to need to find a new whipping boy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:42 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:42 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
When has Trump ever been able to let anything go?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:52 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:52 AM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
> When has Trump ever been able to let anything go?
1992 and 1999.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:57 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
1992 and 1999.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:57 AM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
When has Trump ever been able to let anything go?
Pretty amazing how he manages to hold on even with those short stubby fingers.
posted by TedW at 12:00 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Pretty amazing how he manages to hold on even with those short stubby fingers.
posted by TedW at 12:00 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
WSJ editor says calling Trump lie about 1000s of NJ Muslims celebrating 9/11 a lie risks being seen as not objective
Just a sec lemme check . . . Yyyyyyyyyyes, that is one of the outlets I am ignoring.
posted by petebest at 12:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Just a sec lemme check . . . Yyyyyyyyyyes, that is one of the outlets I am ignoring.
posted by petebest at 12:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
If you want to start fighting back, there are three special elections taking place in Virginia on January 10, 2017, one of which has the possibility of giving Democrats control of the Virginia senate. Information on available volunteering and phone banking opportunities is in this post (it's a long post, so if you just want to phone bank, ctrl-f for "phone bank".
More on the election and the Democratic candidate that could give Dems the opportunity to control the Virginia senate chamber. It's a GOP district, but there are two GOP candidates, so there's an opportunity for a pick-up if they split the GOP turnout.
posted by longdaysjourney at 12:09 PM on January 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
More on the election and the Democratic candidate that could give Dems the opportunity to control the Virginia senate chamber. It's a GOP district, but there are two GOP candidates, so there's an opportunity for a pick-up if they split the GOP turnout.
posted by longdaysjourney at 12:09 PM on January 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
Trump's pick for Labor Secretary doesn't think workers should get breaks.
"Have you ever been to a fast food restaurant and the employees are sitting and you're wondering, 'Why are they sitting?'" Puzder asked. "They are on what is called a mandatory break [emphasis his]." He shared a laugh with the interviewer, saying the so-called nanny state is why Carl's Jr. doesn't open up any new restaurants in California anymore.
posted by futz at 12:32 PM on January 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
"Have you ever been to a fast food restaurant and the employees are sitting and you're wondering, 'Why are they sitting?'" Puzder asked. "They are on what is called a mandatory break [emphasis his]." He shared a laugh with the interviewer, saying the so-called nanny state is why Carl's Jr. doesn't open up any new restaurants in California anymore.
posted by futz at 12:32 PM on January 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
Mr. Trump has a long memory and we’re keeping a list.
As Doktor Zed points out, that would be a long list, considering his incoming unpopularity (and not counting people who may turn against him in the future when his policies crash the economy or gut programs like Social Security).
Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to President Trump
The fantasy of making all of his critics "bow" to him and keeping an enemies list is both very in-character and very disturbing. It's petty, autocratic, immature, paranoid, vindictive, and vintage Trump. Hardly presidential, either - he doesn't seem to realize that the Presidency isn't a Putin-like dictatorship where he can freely muzzle any civilian or journalist who criticizes him.
(Not to say he won't probably try to do so, through intimidation and his army of racist surrogates at the very least, and that's why we need to stand up against these bullying tactics and for each other. I have a feeling we'll see a lot more of those 'totally-not-a-thinly-veiled-threat' statements.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:35 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
As Doktor Zed points out, that would be a long list, considering his incoming unpopularity (and not counting people who may turn against him in the future when his policies crash the economy or gut programs like Social Security).
Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to President Trump
The fantasy of making all of his critics "bow" to him and keeping an enemies list is both very in-character and very disturbing. It's petty, autocratic, immature, paranoid, vindictive, and vintage Trump. Hardly presidential, either - he doesn't seem to realize that the Presidency isn't a Putin-like dictatorship where he can freely muzzle any civilian or journalist who criticizes him.
(Not to say he won't probably try to do so, through intimidation and his army of racist surrogates at the very least, and that's why we need to stand up against these bullying tactics and for each other. I have a feeling we'll see a lot more of those 'totally-not-a-thinly-veiled-threat' statements.)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:35 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
the so-called nanny state is why Carl's Jr. doesn't open up any new restaurants in California anymore
The feeling is mutual. Why would a state that has In'N'Out want to ever touch a Carl's Jr burger?
posted by Talez at 12:36 PM on January 1, 2017 [32 favorites]
The feeling is mutual. Why would a state that has In'N'Out want to ever touch a Carl's Jr burger?
posted by Talez at 12:36 PM on January 1, 2017 [32 favorites]
Kevin Drum: The Lesson of 2016: Rabid Congressional Investigations Work
I want to suggest something the 2016 election does teach us: persistent, obsessive investigations pay off. ... Whitewater ... Benghazi ... this is now twice that maniacal dedication to an investigation has paid off for Republicans. It's basically a way of hacking the media, which feels like it has no choice but to cover congressional investigations on a daily basis. It's news, after all, no matter how you define news.
Hmm. I wonder if any bright up-and-coming Democrats in Congress might like to investigate some real malfeasance. None of this penny-ante bullshit, we have prime Grade A conflict of interest and influence peddling, the Emoluments Clause violations, the pay-for-play, the Russian mobster ties - this is no White House Christmas card list. This could be the real deal. But oh, Democrats, I'm sure you'll decide to play nice and give the elected President a chance.
Prove me wrong, I beg you! Instead of spamming me with DCCC emails every day, how about a couple of investigations to start off 2017?
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:37 PM on January 1, 2017 [39 favorites]
I want to suggest something the 2016 election does teach us: persistent, obsessive investigations pay off. ... Whitewater ... Benghazi ... this is now twice that maniacal dedication to an investigation has paid off for Republicans. It's basically a way of hacking the media, which feels like it has no choice but to cover congressional investigations on a daily basis. It's news, after all, no matter how you define news.
Hmm. I wonder if any bright up-and-coming Democrats in Congress might like to investigate some real malfeasance. None of this penny-ante bullshit, we have prime Grade A conflict of interest and influence peddling, the Emoluments Clause violations, the pay-for-play, the Russian mobster ties - this is no White House Christmas card list. This could be the real deal. But oh, Democrats, I'm sure you'll decide to play nice and give the elected President a chance.
Prove me wrong, I beg you! Instead of spamming me with DCCC emails every day, how about a couple of investigations to start off 2017?
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:37 PM on January 1, 2017 [39 favorites]
Hmm. I wonder if any bright up-and-coming Democrats in Congress might like to investigate some real malfeasance.
They can't. They don't control any positions of power or internal governance. The most they can do is ask questions during hearings the majority chooses to have.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
They can't. They don't control any positions of power or internal governance. The most they can do is ask questions during hearings the majority chooses to have.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
Prove me wrong, I beg you! Instead of spamming me with DCCC emails every day, how about a couple of investigations to start off 2017?
Democrats are more than willing to punish intransigence. Republicans get away with it because their electorate turns out come hell or high water. The Democrats on the other hand need to beg and cajole their part of the electorate to turn up.
posted by Talez at 12:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Democrats are more than willing to punish intransigence. Republicans get away with it because their electorate turns out come hell or high water. The Democrats on the other hand need to beg and cajole their part of the electorate to turn up.
posted by Talez at 12:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Prove me wrong, I beg you! Instead of spamming me with DCCC emails every day, how about a couple of investigations to start off 2017?
The majority party in the House controls whether investigations happen. The Democrats can't hold investigations when a minority. I guess they could hold for-show sham investigations with no subpoena power but, hey, so could I. Maybe I'll have one in my garage.
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
The majority party in the House controls whether investigations happen. The Democrats can't hold investigations when a minority. I guess they could hold for-show sham investigations with no subpoena power but, hey, so could I. Maybe I'll have one in my garage.
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well Republicans turn out to vote because they make sure to make it easy for them to turn out to vote. And difficult for everyone else.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by mrzarquon at 12:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
>> Hmm. I wonder if any bright up-and-coming Democrats in Congress might like to investigate some real malfeasance.
> They can't. They don't control any positions of power or internal governance. The most they can do is ask questions during hearings the majority chooses to have.
Well, I bet that wouldn't stop ambitious Republicans. Maybe it has to be a NY state investigation into the Trump Foundation activities, and a Florida state investigation into the Mar-a-lago workers complaints, and another 48 state-level investigations into the activities of the Trump empire.
Until those rocks are turned over, who knows what might come scurrying out? I'm not saying there's wrongdoing, I'm just saying that some people are asking questions. (Am I doing this right, Jason Chaffetz?)
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
> They can't. They don't control any positions of power or internal governance. The most they can do is ask questions during hearings the majority chooses to have.
Well, I bet that wouldn't stop ambitious Republicans. Maybe it has to be a NY state investigation into the Trump Foundation activities, and a Florida state investigation into the Mar-a-lago workers complaints, and another 48 state-level investigations into the activities of the Trump empire.
Until those rocks are turned over, who knows what might come scurrying out? I'm not saying there's wrongdoing, I'm just saying that some people are asking questions. (Am I doing this right, Jason Chaffetz?)
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
Well, I bet that wouldn't stop ambitious Republicans.
You would lose that bet.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:01 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
You would lose that bet.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:01 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sorry, that's unnecessarily cranky.
Congressional investigations by Democrats are simply impossible now. While switching to other offices is sort of goalpost-moving, you might still limit your expectations to Democrats who control the relevant institutions if you're going to think about it at all. The NYAG is already investigating Trump, but there are no Democratic officials in Florida with any capacity to conduct an investigation.
Republicans didn't run their investigations because they were ambitious or doughty or tried real hard. They ran them because they had the institutional capacity to do so.
Setting yourself up to be disappointed when things that can't possibly happen indeed don't happen is a silly and counterproductive thing to do, especially when you implicitly compare it to fundraising efforts.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:03 PM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
Congressional investigations by Democrats are simply impossible now. While switching to other offices is sort of goalpost-moving, you might still limit your expectations to Democrats who control the relevant institutions if you're going to think about it at all. The NYAG is already investigating Trump, but there are no Democratic officials in Florida with any capacity to conduct an investigation.
Republicans didn't run their investigations because they were ambitious or doughty or tried real hard. They ran them because they had the institutional capacity to do so.
Setting yourself up to be disappointed when things that can't possibly happen indeed don't happen is a silly and counterproductive thing to do, especially when you implicitly compare it to fundraising efforts.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:03 PM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
The only thing Democrats have in their arsenal legislatively is the filibuster. That's it. Anything else requires future elections to go better than they have gone in the recent past.
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
futz: “'They are on what is called a mandatory break [emphasis his].' He shared a laugh with the interviewer”I understand war enough to strive to be an instrument of peace, but I swear to Christ these — people — make me want to hoist the Jolly Roger and have at them. Doubly infuriating is that they feel the same way about it, except they're mad at us for forcing them to recognize our basic human rights. Triply infuriating is they don't even believe in human rights, only dominance.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:06 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
The Breitbart/Greenwald romance continues: "Glenn Greenwald: Breitbart News has 'editorial independence' that 'left and establishment right utterly lack."
posted by octobersurprise at 2:14 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 2:14 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Congressional investigations by Democrats are simply impossible now.
Isn't it within the realm of possibility that there are enough Republican Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the Democrats?
posted by diogenes at 2:14 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Isn't it within the realm of possibility that there are enough Republican Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the Democrats?
posted by diogenes at 2:14 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's really a terrifying harbinger of things to come. A petty, thin skinned man with nearly unlimited power is less than 3 weeks away from being able to take revenge on all his enemies.
Man, sometimes I like to remember those halcyon days when we thought "Trump will punish your state for your actions" was mere hyperbole.
posted by corb at 2:15 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Man, sometimes I like to remember those halcyon days when we thought "Trump will punish your state for your actions" was mere hyperbole.
posted by corb at 2:15 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Congressional investigations by Democrats are simply impossible now.
So was finding anything on Clinton, but that, of course, wasn't the point. So Democrats in Congress can't convene a Proper Congressional Investigation with exactly three I's dotted and precisely two T's crossed -- who cares? You think more than six people who voted for Trump because "Clinton seems crooked" can tell you a single actual detail from the Proper Congressional Investigations that were done according to the rules? Of course not. They just know that someone in Congress was on TV yammering about some investigation, and there is nothing that says the Democrats can't do that. Rail on C-SPAN and Meet the Press about how there is clear evidence of criminality and how Speaker Ryan is clearly to blame for there not being subpoenas and how Leader McConnell refuses to convene a committee and make them fucking talk about why they aren't doing anything.
That's the lesson of 2016, not that Rule 43/a-9 disallows Dems from subpoenaing Assistant Secretaries except on the third Thursday of months without an R in them. Can't make a fire? Make some fucking smoke.
posted by Etrigan at 2:15 PM on January 1, 2017 [36 favorites]
So was finding anything on Clinton, but that, of course, wasn't the point. So Democrats in Congress can't convene a Proper Congressional Investigation with exactly three I's dotted and precisely two T's crossed -- who cares? You think more than six people who voted for Trump because "Clinton seems crooked" can tell you a single actual detail from the Proper Congressional Investigations that were done according to the rules? Of course not. They just know that someone in Congress was on TV yammering about some investigation, and there is nothing that says the Democrats can't do that. Rail on C-SPAN and Meet the Press about how there is clear evidence of criminality and how Speaker Ryan is clearly to blame for there not being subpoenas and how Leader McConnell refuses to convene a committee and make them fucking talk about why they aren't doing anything.
That's the lesson of 2016, not that Rule 43/a-9 disallows Dems from subpoenaing Assistant Secretaries except on the third Thursday of months without an R in them. Can't make a fire? Make some fucking smoke.
posted by Etrigan at 2:15 PM on January 1, 2017 [36 favorites]
Isn't it within the realm of possibility that there are enough Republican Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the Democrats?
Don't be daft.
posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
Don't be daft.
posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
especially when you implicitly compare it to fundraising efforts.
Was there any left over from the 10x bigger HFA warchest? Is GOTV only a Democratic party problem?
I guess I know that second one. That's all Fox and Limbaugh et. al. are.
posted by petebest at 2:16 PM on January 1, 2017
Was there any left over from the 10x bigger HFA warchest? Is GOTV only a Democratic party problem?
I guess I know that second one. That's all Fox and Limbaugh et. al. are.
posted by petebest at 2:16 PM on January 1, 2017
Don't be daft.
Which part is daft? The idea that Trump vastly increases the chances of nuclear war, or the idea that Republican Senators would care?
posted by diogenes at 2:18 PM on January 1, 2017
Which part is daft? The idea that Trump vastly increases the chances of nuclear war, or the idea that Republican Senators would care?
posted by diogenes at 2:18 PM on January 1, 2017
"Glenn Greenwald: Breitbart News has 'editorial independence' that 'left and establishment right utterly lack."
I don't care whatever prevaricating barely-criticism of Breitbart might have been edited from either side of that quote. Even if Greenwald isn't an intentional collaborator (big if), he's no friend of ours.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
I don't care whatever prevaricating barely-criticism of Breitbart might have been edited from either side of that quote. Even if Greenwald isn't an intentional collaborator (big if), he's no friend of ours.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Which part is daft? The idea that Trump vastly increases the chances of nuclear war, or the idea that Republican Senators would care?
The Republican part. Until the wind changes, which if anyone reads the comments down here they could tell you: the weathervane has been nailed down.
posted by petebest at 2:23 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Republican part. Until the wind changes, which if anyone reads the comments down here they could tell you: the weathervane has been nailed down.
posted by petebest at 2:23 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
I understand war enough to strive to be an instrument of peace, but I swear to Christ these — people — make me want to hoist the Jolly Roger and have at them.
I've been struggling with my own impulses to really rip into the Trump voters I know, partly because how smug many of them are about it and their total lack of awareness to others' suffering. Their willingness to throw people less privileged than them under the bus (many of them simply out of spite and/or ignorance) disgusts me, even though I know that yelling at them won't change their minds or what happened. In my personal experience acquaintances who voted for, say, Johnson were much more receptive when I explained the concept of privilege to them.
Ordinary people's apathy and willingness to look the other way when other people suffer (either because it isn't their problem or they actively see others' suffering as their gain) is part of what enables people like Trump.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:26 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
I've been struggling with my own impulses to really rip into the Trump voters I know, partly because how smug many of them are about it and their total lack of awareness to others' suffering. Their willingness to throw people less privileged than them under the bus (many of them simply out of spite and/or ignorance) disgusts me, even though I know that yelling at them won't change their minds or what happened. In my personal experience acquaintances who voted for, say, Johnson were much more receptive when I explained the concept of privilege to them.
Ordinary people's apathy and willingness to look the other way when other people suffer (either because it isn't their problem or they actively see others' suffering as their gain) is part of what enables people like Trump.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:26 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
The question is, when things go badly for them, and things are going to go badly for them as much or even slightly more so than for other people, are they going to blame Trump and by extension themselves or are they going to blame us? Because thats going to be be a critical question when the angry mobs form.
posted by Artw at 2:34 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:34 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
For his part, especially if our side is successful in blocking some things, he'll certainly try to deflect the blame onto us, or otherwise blame us for getting in his way.
I wouldn't put attempted "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest"-ing past him, either.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't put attempted "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest"-ing past him, either.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 2:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't put attempted "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest"-ing past him, either.
I'd put money on it within the first six months.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:43 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
I'd put money on it within the first six months.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:43 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
NYT: Mar-a-Lago, the Future Winter White House and Home of the Calmer Trump
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
You don't have to put it past him. He already remarked on "Second Amendment People" regarding Hillary during the campaign.
posted by mrgoat at 2:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by mrgoat at 2:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
He's been doing it in joking/veiled fashion for a while, yeah. And he'll continue as president, and nobody of consequence will publicly notice until somebody acts on it. And even then, only if we're lucky.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'm laughing a very bitter laugh right now, Artw. Of course a lot of Trump voters will be hurt and some moreso than the aversge citizen. Economically, that can't be avoided, and if Ryan succeeds in dumping the ACA and gutting Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security, many of them will be especially hurt.
How likely does anyone think it will be that Trump voters watch this happen and suffer the consequences and actually look in a mirror and say "Yeah, that's on me?"
A large number have been in the habit of blaming "otherness" for their financial and social woes. I don't see that changing, nor do I see the Republicans putting a spin on their political actions and those actions' economic effects that would place blame on anyone but "others" and liberals. "Others" is purposely left undefined because it basically means anyone but that voter is included in the group called "others."
posted by Silverstone at 2:50 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
How likely does anyone think it will be that Trump voters watch this happen and suffer the consequences and actually look in a mirror and say "Yeah, that's on me?"
A large number have been in the habit of blaming "otherness" for their financial and social woes. I don't see that changing, nor do I see the Republicans putting a spin on their political actions and those actions' economic effects that would place blame on anyone but "others" and liberals. "Others" is purposely left undefined because it basically means anyone but that voter is included in the group called "others."
posted by Silverstone at 2:50 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
Artw, Trump's supporters will almost certainly turn on the people Trump has identified as enemies. That's how populist campaigns work. The rhetoric about "us" and "them" has a dual purpose: it provides a ready-made scapegoat, and it keeps supporters in line. After all, they wouldn't want to be identified as one of "them". So you have this paradox that the most fervent supporters of a populist movement are often the ones who will inevitably lose from it, while its opponents are people who could do very well by switching sides.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
FWIW, Joe Sarborough denies the NYT report that he was there to party. (thread)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:59 PM on January 1, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:59 PM on January 1, 2017
Ironically, I think the only hope of trump supporters directing their anger towards trump when shit goes all bad as a result of his policies is a straight 8 years of trump and the rest of the GOP actually getting all their policies implemented. In eight years, when there's still no coal jobs, the "wall" hasn't put a new truck in anyone's driveway, and they all lost their healthcare, some of his current supporters might begin to wonder just when the whole "Make America Great" thing is supposed to kick in.
But I bet it's outside odds, for the reasons Joe in Australia and Silverstone (and others) have said. It may come down to a fight between the effectiveness of the populist rhetoric vs. the impatience of angry people who were sold a fantasy.
posted by mrgoat at 3:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
But I bet it's outside odds, for the reasons Joe in Australia and Silverstone (and others) have said. It may come down to a fight between the effectiveness of the populist rhetoric vs. the impatience of angry people who were sold a fantasy.
posted by mrgoat at 3:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
What I've tried to explain to Trump supporters in my circles is that Trump's a billionaire, and an unscrupulous one at that. He has a record of happily screwing over everybody he touches on his way to the top - other businessmen, other companies, his workers, his customers. Many people who've dealt with him personally, even his own ghostwriter, have reported that he'll lie, cheat, bully, and do anything necessary to get his way.
He doesn't really care what will happen to his supporters or their jobs or their health - he put on an act of pretending to care because he needs their support, he'll say whatever he needs to as part of that act, and he'll throw them away once he's done with them. The only people he really cares about are himself and his inner circle - ordinary people on both sides are to be sucked dry and discarded like oyster shells.
They usually responded to this by denying it completely or saying that Trump was better because "at least he isn't a politician".
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
He doesn't really care what will happen to his supporters or their jobs or their health - he put on an act of pretending to care because he needs their support, he'll say whatever he needs to as part of that act, and he'll throw them away once he's done with them. The only people he really cares about are himself and his inner circle - ordinary people on both sides are to be sucked dry and discarded like oyster shells.
They usually responded to this by denying it completely or saying that Trump was better because "at least he isn't a politician".
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
From December 15, but worth a read: The toughest man in America
That thought struck me the other day as I read through the comments on a Facebook post, in which a couple of “friends” were going on and on about the attributes of president-elect Donald Trump. Among the attributes was, of course, Trump’s toughness.posted by Surely This at 3:15 PM on January 1, 2017 [23 favorites]
He’s going to put China in its place. He’s going to tell those radical Muslims to pound sand. He’ll turn the Middle East into a parking lot if they keep it up.
You could almost hear the “Freebird” guitar solo playing in the background and see the American flag waving in the too-hot-for-you breeze.
And there’s the problem: we in Alabama – in a number of conservative strongholds across America – have somehow started confusing bravado with actual strength.
That’s how we ended up electing a schoolyard bully as our president.
NYT today: North Korea Will Test Intercontinental Ballistic Missile, Kim Says
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:21 PM on January 1, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:21 PM on January 1, 2017
Among the attributes was, of course, Trump’s toughness.
Yeah, he's so tough that he can't handle a mean biography being written about him or being made fun of on Twitter without blowing a gasket.
If Trump was a Disney villain, he wouldn't be one of the sly, charismatic ones like Scar or Jafar. He'd be more like Prince John, only without a Robin Hood to get in his way.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:26 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
Yeah, he's so tough that he can't handle a mean biography being written about him or being made fun of on Twitter without blowing a gasket.
If Trump was a Disney villain, he wouldn't be one of the sly, charismatic ones like Scar or Jafar. He'd be more like Prince John, only without a Robin Hood to get in his way.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:26 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
And there’s the problem: we in Alabama – in a number of conservative strongholds across America – have somehow started confusing bravado with actual strength.
Started? What? This is the same culture that formed the heart of the Confederacy. They started centuries ago.
posted by indubitable at 3:29 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
Started? What? This is the same culture that formed the heart of the Confederacy. They started centuries ago.
posted by indubitable at 3:29 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
There is a lot of shit that is likely to happen that we will have no idea about until Trump actually takes office. I suspect a few things will happen within a few days of that.
All our experience since 1976 has been of Republicans marching in determined lockstep whatever their personal disagreements might be behind the scenes, but the Republicans have never had a leader like Trump. There are a lot of career Republicans who actually do care about the country, if not about teeny little individual people, and they are apt to see Trump as a threat to everything they have ever believed in. They said as much before the election, and they've been quiet since but then Trump hasn't been Doing Stuff as President.
We simply don't know what Trump will actually do once he takes office; nothing he says matters since he will always say what he thinks you want to hear. And his Republican "colleagues" know this too. Trump could rule much closer to the middle than other Republicans to strike a "grand deal," since after all he's not really an ideological Republican, or he could make It Can't Happen here look like a documentary. We simply don't know.
I would guess that about thirty percent of the Republican caucuses in Congress are waiting to see. (Of the rest, about half just don't care and the other half are genuinely batshit insane, especially in the House.) I do think there is a real chance if Trump wanders too far off the reserve that a coalition of Republicans might approach the Democrats about a compromise majority. But that won't happen until we know exactly what Trump will do, and Trump will have to really piss them off to make it happen. But Trump doesn't seem to care about anything. It doesn't seem to have occurred to him that Trump Tower and Mar-a-lago are not really optimal places to be camping out if you're the President. He doesn't seem to care what anything he does looks like or what laws he might be breaking unless he's very directly called on it.
Say what you want about either Bush, Reagan, or even Nixon, but they all knew there were limits and they knew when they were stepping over a pre-existing line. Nixon had to say "it's not illegal when the President does it" because there was some actual doubt about that theory, even among his people. Trump doesn't know or care about these limits though. He doesn't believe it's OK to be over the line, he doesn't understand that there's a line. And I really don't think it will take too much of him acting on that to demolish that Republican wall of lockstep self-reinforcement we've come to know so well.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:30 PM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
All our experience since 1976 has been of Republicans marching in determined lockstep whatever their personal disagreements might be behind the scenes, but the Republicans have never had a leader like Trump. There are a lot of career Republicans who actually do care about the country, if not about teeny little individual people, and they are apt to see Trump as a threat to everything they have ever believed in. They said as much before the election, and they've been quiet since but then Trump hasn't been Doing Stuff as President.
We simply don't know what Trump will actually do once he takes office; nothing he says matters since he will always say what he thinks you want to hear. And his Republican "colleagues" know this too. Trump could rule much closer to the middle than other Republicans to strike a "grand deal," since after all he's not really an ideological Republican, or he could make It Can't Happen here look like a documentary. We simply don't know.
I would guess that about thirty percent of the Republican caucuses in Congress are waiting to see. (Of the rest, about half just don't care and the other half are genuinely batshit insane, especially in the House.) I do think there is a real chance if Trump wanders too far off the reserve that a coalition of Republicans might approach the Democrats about a compromise majority. But that won't happen until we know exactly what Trump will do, and Trump will have to really piss them off to make it happen. But Trump doesn't seem to care about anything. It doesn't seem to have occurred to him that Trump Tower and Mar-a-lago are not really optimal places to be camping out if you're the President. He doesn't seem to care what anything he does looks like or what laws he might be breaking unless he's very directly called on it.
Say what you want about either Bush, Reagan, or even Nixon, but they all knew there were limits and they knew when they were stepping over a pre-existing line. Nixon had to say "it's not illegal when the President does it" because there was some actual doubt about that theory, even among his people. Trump doesn't know or care about these limits though. He doesn't believe it's OK to be over the line, he doesn't understand that there's a line. And I really don't think it will take too much of him acting on that to demolish that Republican wall of lockstep self-reinforcement we've come to know so well.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:30 PM on January 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
Don't expect the enemy to break ranks out of human decency. They will follow him down to hell and drag us with them.
posted by Artw at 3:31 PM on January 1, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:31 PM on January 1, 2017 [24 favorites]
NYT today: North Korea Will Test Intercontinental Ballistic Missile, Kim Says
What will they be delivering with it, a pizza?
Repeat after me: North Korea does not have a deliverable atomic bomb. What they have is essentially a copy of Fat Man or Little Boy, a bomb that weighs around 10,000 pounds and delivers 10 to 20 kilotons. You cannot deliver a 10,000 pound bomb with an intercontinental missile. You can barely deliver it with a huge fucking airplane that has shoot me down written all over it.
And even if you could deliver it -- really, ship to panel truck would be a better strategy -- all it would do is piss us off. You put a Hirsohima-sized hole in Los Angeles or NYC and the rest of the city just routes around it, and while we lick our wound we show you what some real weapons look like. Ed Teller's buckets of sunshine make Fat Man and Little Boy look like kiddie fireworks.
But keep pretending you're a real threat to us, NK. Kick the giant's ankles enough and one day you will get stomped. If China doesn't get pissed off for its own reasons and do it for us first.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:38 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
What will they be delivering with it, a pizza?
Repeat after me: North Korea does not have a deliverable atomic bomb. What they have is essentially a copy of Fat Man or Little Boy, a bomb that weighs around 10,000 pounds and delivers 10 to 20 kilotons. You cannot deliver a 10,000 pound bomb with an intercontinental missile. You can barely deliver it with a huge fucking airplane that has shoot me down written all over it.
And even if you could deliver it -- really, ship to panel truck would be a better strategy -- all it would do is piss us off. You put a Hirsohima-sized hole in Los Angeles or NYC and the rest of the city just routes around it, and while we lick our wound we show you what some real weapons look like. Ed Teller's buckets of sunshine make Fat Man and Little Boy look like kiddie fireworks.
But keep pretending you're a real threat to us, NK. Kick the giant's ankles enough and one day you will get stomped. If China doesn't get pissed off for its own reasons and do it for us first.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:38 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Don't expect the enemy to break ranks out of human decency.
Oh, I wouldn't. I would expect them to break ranks out of shitless fear.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh, I wouldn't. I would expect them to break ranks out of shitless fear.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
While NK is, as you say, not an existential threat to the USA I'd prefer to do without the tens or hundreds of thousands of dead Americans and millions of dead Koreans (on both sides of the DMZ) that would result from a hot war involving even a shitty, badly constructed atomic bomb.
posted by Justinian at 3:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
Ed Teller's Buckets of Sunshine
Dibs on the band name.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
Dibs on the band name.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
Well it's up to NK whether they want to start something which, while not an existential threat to us, certainly would be to them. Building a missile is just trolling though. No missile they could build represents any meaningful threat to us, unless they have gotten a 30 year head start on the whole nuke design thing, and there's no evidence that they have.
What I think is much more likely if NK gets too rambunctious is that they will do the panel truck delivery thing and poke a Hiroshima sized hole in Seoul. And if that happens I don't think we will have to do anything, because the Chinese will probably have a word with them before we get a chance to respond.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
What I think is much more likely if NK gets too rambunctious is that they will do the panel truck delivery thing and poke a Hiroshima sized hole in Seoul. And if that happens I don't think we will have to do anything, because the Chinese will probably have a word with them before we get a chance to respond.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dibs on the band name.
I really wish I could claim it but I stole that from another MeFite. It was just too perfect.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:50 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I really wish I could claim it but I stole that from another MeFite. It was just too perfect.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:50 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Justinian: “I'd prefer to do without … [the] millions of dead Koreans (on both sides of the DMZ) that would result from a hot war[.]”Indeed. As a reminder: Y0UNG-HAE CHANG. HEAVY INDUSTRIES. PRESENTS. 0PERATI0N NUK0REA. [Previously Related h/t homunculus]
posted by ob1quixote at 3:56 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Repeat after me: North Korea does not have a deliverable atomic bomb.
They might not at present, but Pakistan does; also, we now have to worry about North Korea or any of their clients developing deliverable nuclear weapons. Iran, for instance. Also, realistically, ICBMs would be used as a threat. They're dangerous and destabilising and increase the risk of a conflict widening to include patron superpowers.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:00 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
They might not at present, but Pakistan does; also, we now have to worry about North Korea or any of their clients developing deliverable nuclear weapons. Iran, for instance. Also, realistically, ICBMs would be used as a threat. They're dangerous and destabilising and increase the risk of a conflict widening to include patron superpowers.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:00 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
What I think is much more likely if NK gets too rambunctious is that they will do the panel truck delivery thing and poke a Hiroshima sized hole in Seoul. And if that happens I don't think we will have to do anything, because the Chinese will probably have a word with them before we get a chance to respond.
They don't even need to deliver a nuke. They have enough '70s era 170mm artillery on the DMZ with a long enough range to do a hell of a shelling on Seoul.
posted by Talez at 4:03 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
They don't even need to deliver a nuke. They have enough '70s era 170mm artillery on the DMZ with a long enough range to do a hell of a shelling on Seoul.
posted by Talez at 4:03 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
but Pakistan does
No they don't. The only powers that have sub ten thousand pound miniaturized bombs are the US, Russia, Britain, France, and China. As a practical matter you cannot develop miniaturized bombs without testing, and testing is globally detectable, which is how we know who has what. You also need tritium, which can only be made in fairly specialized nuclear reactors. I wouldn't put it past either India or Pakistan to be making tritium, but NK? Forgettaboutit.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
No they don't. The only powers that have sub ten thousand pound miniaturized bombs are the US, Russia, Britain, France, and China. As a practical matter you cannot develop miniaturized bombs without testing, and testing is globally detectable, which is how we know who has what. You also need tritium, which can only be made in fairly specialized nuclear reactors. I wouldn't put it past either India or Pakistan to be making tritium, but NK? Forgettaboutit.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Bringer Tom, out of interest, are you an older cold warrior that used to work in the Nixon administration?
posted by Talez at 4:10 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Talez at 4:10 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
They don't even need to deliver a nuke. They have enough '70s era 170mm artillery on the DMZ with a long enough range to do a hell of a shelling on Seoul.
It would be about emotional impact. It would take a hell of a lot of conventional 170mm warheads to equal the impact of Little Boy, and it would take time to deliver them which would allow for a response. But Little Boy in a truck would happen instantaneously and be, at least for some period of time, deniable.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:12 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
It would be about emotional impact. It would take a hell of a lot of conventional 170mm warheads to equal the impact of Little Boy, and it would take time to deliver them which would allow for a response. But Little Boy in a truck would happen instantaneously and be, at least for some period of time, deniable.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:12 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Bringer Tom, out of interest, are you an older cold warrior that used to work in the Nixon administration?
Haha, I think, um, no. I was born in 1964 so I was a little young to be working for Nixon. But I have a perverse fascination with nuclear weapons, because I spent so much of my youth thinking I might be killed by them.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:14 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Haha, I think, um, no. I was born in 1964 so I was a little young to be working for Nixon. But I have a perverse fascination with nuclear weapons, because I spent so much of my youth thinking I might be killed by them.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:14 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Isn't it within the realm of possibility that there are enough Republican Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the Democrats?
Not an organizing majority. Why would they want to organize under Schumer and spend time doing Schumer things when they're much closer to McConnell and McConnell things?
They'll form working majorities with Democrats on individual issues; this is happening already with confirmations.
So Democrats in Congress can't convene a Proper Congressional Investigation with exactly three I's dotted and precisely two T's crossed -- who cares?
The people who don't get subpoenas and so don't have to show up unless they feel like it care a whole bunch.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:33 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Not an organizing majority. Why would they want to organize under Schumer and spend time doing Schumer things when they're much closer to McConnell and McConnell things?
They'll form working majorities with Democrats on individual issues; this is happening already with confirmations.
So Democrats in Congress can't convene a Proper Congressional Investigation with exactly three I's dotted and precisely two T's crossed -- who cares?
The people who don't get subpoenas and so don't have to show up unless they feel like it care a whole bunch.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:33 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Isn't it within the realm of possibility that there are enough Republican Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the Democrats?
I'll flip that on its side. Isn't there the possibility that there are enough Democratic Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the reasonable Republicans?
The answer is "nearly staggeringly unlikely", and the reason for that has a lot to do with trust being destroyed on each side - including trust between a legislator and constituents. Even though nearly every Dem is saying, "sweet Jesus, I wish this fucker was just a moderate average Republican", few can politically afford the fallout if they were to say "look, we'll cooperate with you and form a caucus for Typical Moderate Republican shit if you just help us kick the fucker out so he can't cause Armageddon." And even if they could, there's so much bad feeling that moderate Republicans could never trust Dems wouldn't be Lucy holding the football - as soon as they'd impeached, they'd be vulnerable to "Ha-ha, fooled you!" Deals aren't worth a thing anymore.
Dems are willing to form a coalition to do Dem things. GOP is willing to form a coalition to do GOP things. Few are willing to take that huge a step over the aisle, and they'd be unlikely to gain if they did.
posted by corb at 4:37 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'll flip that on its side. Isn't there the possibility that there are enough Democratic Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the reasonable Republicans?
The answer is "nearly staggeringly unlikely", and the reason for that has a lot to do with trust being destroyed on each side - including trust between a legislator and constituents. Even though nearly every Dem is saying, "sweet Jesus, I wish this fucker was just a moderate average Republican", few can politically afford the fallout if they were to say "look, we'll cooperate with you and form a caucus for Typical Moderate Republican shit if you just help us kick the fucker out so he can't cause Armageddon." And even if they could, there's so much bad feeling that moderate Republicans could never trust Dems wouldn't be Lucy holding the football - as soon as they'd impeached, they'd be vulnerable to "Ha-ha, fooled you!" Deals aren't worth a thing anymore.
Dems are willing to form a coalition to do Dem things. GOP is willing to form a coalition to do GOP things. Few are willing to take that huge a step over the aisle, and they'd be unlikely to gain if they did.
posted by corb at 4:37 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Why Did Ignorant Fucking Idiots Vote Trump? OK, so the actual title is Why Did Planned Parenthood Supporters Vote Trump? but I'm tired of seeing recap after recap of ignorant motherfuckers who didn't do their homework.
In Phoenix, two middle-aged women in the Trump-only focus group said they wouldn’t support him for re-election if he signed away funding for Planned Parenthood. “It’s a deal-breaker,” said an earthy 58-year-old in a plaid work shirt. “It will rob women of basic fundamental rights. I’m talking about female health care, which includes abortion. Which includes birth control. I think birth control is the greatest gift that they gave for womankind.” Added a 44-year-old, if Trump attacked Planned Parenthood, “I’d be pissed off as hell.”posted by kirkaracha at 4:43 PM on January 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
...
In several focus groups, the moderator asked if people expected Trump to veto a defunding bill, and most hands went up.
Reinforcing the basic idea that in order to vote for Trump you had to decide he was lying about everything and be OK with that because he was just doing it to lie to those other dumb ass Republicans, not to you.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [20 favorites]
few can politically afford the fallout if they were to say "look, we'll cooperate with you and form a caucus for Typical Moderate Republican shit if you just help us kick the fucker out so he can't cause Armageddon."
I think Dems could definitely politically get away with this. There'd be some die hards who don't understand political reality who cry "sell out," but I think MeFi represents the Democratic mainstream pretty well, and there's a strong "anyone but Trump" feeling here. Remember we're McMullin's whole internet fanbase. :-)
Seriously, even now Democrats do not hate Republicans as much as Republicans hate Democrats, in my experience.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think Dems could definitely politically get away with this. There'd be some die hards who don't understand political reality who cry "sell out," but I think MeFi represents the Democratic mainstream pretty well, and there's a strong "anyone but Trump" feeling here. Remember we're McMullin's whole internet fanbase. :-)
Seriously, even now Democrats do not hate Republicans as much as Republicans hate Democrats, in my experience.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Besides, what have we got to lose? Nothing we want is happening til the next election at the earliest anyway.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dems are willing to form a coalition to do Dem things. GOP is willing to form a coalition to do GOP things. Few are willing to take that huge a step over the aisle, and they'd be unlikely to gain if they did.
This has certainly been true since the 1970's. It may remain true. But it might also not. The thing is, Trump isn't actually a Republican. Every establishment Republican will agree with that after a couple of shots of Crown.
So it is a very big question what Trump will actually DO once he takes the oath. Nobody knows this because what Trump says doesn't mean anything, since he will say whatever you want to hear. So all you can really do is wait and see, especially if you're an old fart with a vested interest and a lot to lose either way.
I really don't see Trump being your standard Republican; being your standard anything isn't how he rolls. He wants to be the biggest, bestest, mostest of everything. I can see that rolling two ways. One way is he surprises us with how moderate he is and he turns out not to be crazypants and actually disappoints the Republicans by being too willing to meet the Dems in the middle. No, stop laughing, I think that is a thing that could happen.
But the other possibility -- and really the only other possibility -- is that he decides to show the Republicans how to be really fucking Republican. He's a bidness guy after all and he might not know much else, but he thinks he knows bidness. So fuck everything else, hard and without a condom. And he becomes a steamroller crashing through a lot of established shit that we need for the country to function, because he's also an idiot.
At that point I think a certain number of Republicans actually come over. They might not want all those freeloaders having health care without paying for it but they also don't want to burn the country down. I really do think that a lot of Republicans -- not all of them, maybe not even a majority, but still quite a few -- believe in the US as a country and a power and a society, and they don't want to see it burned to the ground.
At that point they come to us. It's either that or just watch the dumpster fire. And you don't go into politics just to watch the dumpster fire; you either want to start it or put it out. And we will know within a week or two after the inauguration whether it's being started or not.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:51 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
This has certainly been true since the 1970's. It may remain true. But it might also not. The thing is, Trump isn't actually a Republican. Every establishment Republican will agree with that after a couple of shots of Crown.
So it is a very big question what Trump will actually DO once he takes the oath. Nobody knows this because what Trump says doesn't mean anything, since he will say whatever you want to hear. So all you can really do is wait and see, especially if you're an old fart with a vested interest and a lot to lose either way.
I really don't see Trump being your standard Republican; being your standard anything isn't how he rolls. He wants to be the biggest, bestest, mostest of everything. I can see that rolling two ways. One way is he surprises us with how moderate he is and he turns out not to be crazypants and actually disappoints the Republicans by being too willing to meet the Dems in the middle. No, stop laughing, I think that is a thing that could happen.
But the other possibility -- and really the only other possibility -- is that he decides to show the Republicans how to be really fucking Republican. He's a bidness guy after all and he might not know much else, but he thinks he knows bidness. So fuck everything else, hard and without a condom. And he becomes a steamroller crashing through a lot of established shit that we need for the country to function, because he's also an idiot.
At that point I think a certain number of Republicans actually come over. They might not want all those freeloaders having health care without paying for it but they also don't want to burn the country down. I really do think that a lot of Republicans -- not all of them, maybe not even a majority, but still quite a few -- believe in the US as a country and a power and a society, and they don't want to see it burned to the ground.
At that point they come to us. It's either that or just watch the dumpster fire. And you don't go into politics just to watch the dumpster fire; you either want to start it or put it out. And we will know within a week or two after the inauguration whether it's being started or not.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:51 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'll flip that on its side. Isn't there the possibility that there are enough Democratic Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the reasonable Republicans?
Republicans do not really offer policies of that nature.
We'll see our share of pro-Nuclear fire Dems dumb enough to help them out though.
posted by Artw at 4:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
Republicans do not really offer policies of that nature.
We'll see our share of pro-Nuclear fire Dems dumb enough to help them out though.
posted by Artw at 4:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
Bringer Tom, what about the endless parade of despicable and hard-right guys he has surrounded himself with makes you think he's going to do anything moderately. Does Jeff Sessions scream moderatism to you?
Trump doesn't like to do actual work. He's going to let his Cabinet and VP run things, and apart from maybe Mattis the best people in his cabinet are Goldman Sachs money guys. The rest are... much worse.
posted by Justinian at 5:00 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
Trump doesn't like to do actual work. He's going to let his Cabinet and VP run things, and apart from maybe Mattis the best people in his cabinet are Goldman Sachs money guys. The rest are... much worse.
posted by Justinian at 5:00 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
Justinian, you're quite right, and the proper answer is nothing. So far all the signals are bad. But I was trying to cover all the bases. Just because a thing is possible doesn't mean it will happen.
But I do think if Trump rules as badly as it looks like he will, then unexpected allies will come out of the woodwork to help stop him simply because there won't really be a Republican party any more in the form we've known for 40 years or more. The bad thing is that it might mean the Democratic party will end up looking a lot more like the 90's Republicans than any of us would like. But there is a significant slice of the current Republican party that I simply don't think will sit and watch as Trump puts a match to the whole country. And these are people I don't agree with about much, but I think when they see undeniably the truth of what is happening, they will not just let it burn.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:08 PM on January 1, 2017
But I do think if Trump rules as badly as it looks like he will, then unexpected allies will come out of the woodwork to help stop him simply because there won't really be a Republican party any more in the form we've known for 40 years or more. The bad thing is that it might mean the Democratic party will end up looking a lot more like the 90's Republicans than any of us would like. But there is a significant slice of the current Republican party that I simply don't think will sit and watch as Trump puts a match to the whole country. And these are people I don't agree with about much, but I think when they see undeniably the truth of what is happening, they will not just let it burn.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:08 PM on January 1, 2017
Trump doesn't like to do actual work.
This reminds me that last week (Wednesday at 12:30ish pm?) I saw the tail end of a CNN panel interview in which the host asked if there was anything that they wanted to add perhaps something that was brewing behind the scenes of the donald transition that hadn't hit the news cycle yet (?) and one person responded that donny had given some of his Appointees the power to appoint other people. This had led to situations where 2 different people have been offered the same position, one by donny and another by an Appointee.
I can't find the segment that this aired on though.
posted by futz at 5:32 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
This reminds me that last week (Wednesday at 12:30ish pm?) I saw the tail end of a CNN panel interview in which the host asked if there was anything that they wanted to add perhaps something that was brewing behind the scenes of the donald transition that hadn't hit the news cycle yet (?) and one person responded that donny had given some of his Appointees the power to appoint other people. This had led to situations where 2 different people have been offered the same position, one by donny and another by an Appointee.
I can't find the segment that this aired on though.
posted by futz at 5:32 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
few can politically afford the fallout if they were to say "look, we'll cooperate with you and form a caucus for Typical Moderate Republican shit if you just help us kick the fucker out so he can't cause Armageddon."
1) Stop with the "both sides do it." It is simply not the Democrats worried about political fallout due to cooperating with the other side. It is the Republicans. Who will be replaced by someone more conservative if they attempt to cooperate across the aisle. This has actually happened multiple times and is borne out by election results. The number of Dems replaced because they were "too friendly with Republicans" is laughably small compared to vice versa.
2) After 8 years of Bush neo-con control and 8 years of Tea-Party-ism I genuinely have no idea what "Typical Moderate Republican shit" could possibly be. Wikipedia (admittedly, worth ???) claims Chris Christie, Rudy Guliani, Lindsey Graham, and Scott Brown among "moderate" Republicans, which, no. They're far to the right of Nixon, much less the historic examples of, say, Nelson Rockefeller or George Voinovich. Republicans today refuse to acknowledge that climate change even exists, just for one example. A "moderate Republican" would be arguing about whether we should spend 40 billion or 28 billion on addressing the problem and what kind of tax breaks corporations should get for cooperating with various plans, not denying its very existence.
There are no "moderates" in the Flat Earth Society, and that's what the 21st century Republican Party has become.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:59 PM on January 1, 2017 [51 favorites]
1) Stop with the "both sides do it." It is simply not the Democrats worried about political fallout due to cooperating with the other side. It is the Republicans. Who will be replaced by someone more conservative if they attempt to cooperate across the aisle. This has actually happened multiple times and is borne out by election results. The number of Dems replaced because they were "too friendly with Republicans" is laughably small compared to vice versa.
2) After 8 years of Bush neo-con control and 8 years of Tea-Party-ism I genuinely have no idea what "Typical Moderate Republican shit" could possibly be. Wikipedia (admittedly, worth ???) claims Chris Christie, Rudy Guliani, Lindsey Graham, and Scott Brown among "moderate" Republicans, which, no. They're far to the right of Nixon, much less the historic examples of, say, Nelson Rockefeller or George Voinovich. Republicans today refuse to acknowledge that climate change even exists, just for one example. A "moderate Republican" would be arguing about whether we should spend 40 billion or 28 billion on addressing the problem and what kind of tax breaks corporations should get for cooperating with various plans, not denying its very existence.
There are no "moderates" in the Flat Earth Society, and that's what the 21st century Republican Party has become.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:59 PM on January 1, 2017 [51 favorites]
> A "moderate Republican" would be arguing about whether we should spend 40 billion or 28 billion on addressing the problem [of climate change] and what kind of tax breaks corporations should get for cooperating with various plans, not denying its very existence.
I strongly second this.
There's this HUGE money grab ready for the taking if Republicans would just get on board with "market friendly" solutions to climate change. Solar and wind are briskly expanding industries in spite of modest Federal support - our solar panel saleswoman told us that the big innovations they are working on right now are financing and net-metering issues, because the technology is pretty mature and all they need is cooperation from the utilities and banks.
There's a huge patriotism USA-first angle to this as well - Republicans could have wrapped themselves in the flag as usual over Germany and China taking the lead in the design and and manufacture of solar panels. We could have exported clean energy tech to the rest of the world, instead of leaving that to other countries.
Instead, the Republican party appears to have been captured by a mix of coal and oil interests (old industry), big money, and outright racists. I don't quite understand the connection, other than maybe that innovative industries are concentrated in the blue states? (But Wall Street? I don't get it.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
I strongly second this.
There's this HUGE money grab ready for the taking if Republicans would just get on board with "market friendly" solutions to climate change. Solar and wind are briskly expanding industries in spite of modest Federal support - our solar panel saleswoman told us that the big innovations they are working on right now are financing and net-metering issues, because the technology is pretty mature and all they need is cooperation from the utilities and banks.
There's a huge patriotism USA-first angle to this as well - Republicans could have wrapped themselves in the flag as usual over Germany and China taking the lead in the design and and manufacture of solar panels. We could have exported clean energy tech to the rest of the world, instead of leaving that to other countries.
Instead, the Republican party appears to have been captured by a mix of coal and oil interests (old industry), big money, and outright racists. I don't quite understand the connection, other than maybe that innovative industries are concentrated in the blue states? (But Wall Street? I don't get it.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
Everyone remember all of those Blue Dog Democrats in the 90s and 00s who were primaried for being insufficiently left-wing?
Yeah, me neither. What actually happened is they lost their seats to Republicans, because given a choice between Republican Lite and Actual Republican, voters in purple states pick the real thing.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
Yeah, me neither. What actually happened is they lost their seats to Republicans, because given a choice between Republican Lite and Actual Republican, voters in purple states pick the real thing.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
The problem with a word like "moderate" is that it's comparative, not rooted in an ideology. So I'm not sure how helpful it is beyond sort of ranking politicians -- it doesn't tell you what they support or why.
I think it's more helpful to identify the various ideological strains present in the Republican coalition and how closely a given political actor identifies with the ideology, or how willing they are to compromise from that ideological pole.
For instance, I'd say the GOP has a white nationalist pole, a Christian-nationalist pole, an oligarchical/pro-corporatist pole and a libertarian pole. (This last is often a thin cover for white nationalism and/or corporatism, but not in every case.)
I think our definition of "moderate Republican" usually encompasses the group of people who are fairly hardcore oligarchs, and so on that axis not really "moderate" at all -- because they're usually more willing to compromise with Democrats on social issues and sometimes even on entitlements since their core value is making more money for rich people and they're happy to get a half loaf if the alternative is nothing.
Whereas someone who's a theocrat might actually not care all that much about shovelling tax cuts at Wall Street -- in fact, if framed appropriately they may support liberals on the defense of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. In theory, white nationalists could also do this but I think their hatred of us is great enough that they're just going to oppose anything that liberals support out of spite.
So when we're talking about "moderate" vs. "extreme", we have to qualify what ideological axis we're working on. The goal is to divide and embarrass the governing coalition and to disrupt their ability to pass destructive legislation, by identifying potential allies while also not normalizing or legitimizing the fascists or abandoning the people who will be harmed.
That's just the Congressional front, though; the other front is fighting the Administration. And that will take a lot of judicial work, I think, plus identifying loci of resistance within the civil service and military, and mobilizing public pressure on Trump not to do things that are going to be horrible. Trump is incredibly sensitive, of course, to public opinion, and I think he will drop initiatives if he feels that his personal popularity is being threatened. This is where it's helpful that he's not himself particularly ideological on most of the axes above (with the exception of white nationalism, of course).
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:45 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
I think it's more helpful to identify the various ideological strains present in the Republican coalition and how closely a given political actor identifies with the ideology, or how willing they are to compromise from that ideological pole.
For instance, I'd say the GOP has a white nationalist pole, a Christian-nationalist pole, an oligarchical/pro-corporatist pole and a libertarian pole. (This last is often a thin cover for white nationalism and/or corporatism, but not in every case.)
I think our definition of "moderate Republican" usually encompasses the group of people who are fairly hardcore oligarchs, and so on that axis not really "moderate" at all -- because they're usually more willing to compromise with Democrats on social issues and sometimes even on entitlements since their core value is making more money for rich people and they're happy to get a half loaf if the alternative is nothing.
Whereas someone who's a theocrat might actually not care all that much about shovelling tax cuts at Wall Street -- in fact, if framed appropriately they may support liberals on the defense of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. In theory, white nationalists could also do this but I think their hatred of us is great enough that they're just going to oppose anything that liberals support out of spite.
So when we're talking about "moderate" vs. "extreme", we have to qualify what ideological axis we're working on. The goal is to divide and embarrass the governing coalition and to disrupt their ability to pass destructive legislation, by identifying potential allies while also not normalizing or legitimizing the fascists or abandoning the people who will be harmed.
That's just the Congressional front, though; the other front is fighting the Administration. And that will take a lot of judicial work, I think, plus identifying loci of resistance within the civil service and military, and mobilizing public pressure on Trump not to do things that are going to be horrible. Trump is incredibly sensitive, of course, to public opinion, and I think he will drop initiatives if he feels that his personal popularity is being threatened. This is where it's helpful that he's not himself particularly ideological on most of the axes above (with the exception of white nationalism, of course).
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:45 PM on January 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
Isn't it within the realm of possibility that there are enough Republican Senators who don't want their children to die in nuclear fire to form a majority with the Democrats?
Not an organizing majority. Why would they want to organize under Schumer and spend time doing Schumer things when they're much closer to McConnell and McConnell things?
I'm not talking about forming a majority to actually govern along with Democrats. I would never expect that of Senate Republicans. I'm talking about forming a majority to investigate Trump and get rid of him so that they can have non-madman Pence giving them everything they want instead of madman Trump giving them everything they want but then getting them all killed.
posted by diogenes at 6:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Not an organizing majority. Why would they want to organize under Schumer and spend time doing Schumer things when they're much closer to McConnell and McConnell things?
I'm not talking about forming a majority to actually govern along with Democrats. I would never expect that of Senate Republicans. I'm talking about forming a majority to investigate Trump and get rid of him so that they can have non-madman Pence giving them everything they want instead of madman Trump giving them everything they want but then getting them all killed.
posted by diogenes at 6:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
But I have a perverse fascination with nuclear weapons, because I spent so much of my youth thinking I might be killed by them.
And here we are! Oh yeah that chest-deep-in-gasoline-flicking-matches-at-each-other sensation is back! Mmmmm I forgot, that s**t is tangy. And we haven't even started skirmishing yet, we've just elected a staggeringly unqualified, unstable idiot to the launch position! Ahhh! Yeah. Kinda steamrolling into the Space Madness territory there. ANYhooo
There are no "moderates" in the Flat Earth Society, and that's what the 21st century Republican Party has become.
That's pretty genius there.
posted by petebest at 6:58 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
And here we are! Oh yeah that chest-deep-in-gasoline-flicking-matches-at-each-other sensation is back! Mmmmm I forgot, that s**t is tangy. And we haven't even started skirmishing yet, we've just elected a staggeringly unqualified, unstable idiot to the launch position! Ahhh! Yeah. Kinda steamrolling into the Space Madness territory there. ANYhooo
There are no "moderates" in the Flat Earth Society, and that's what the 21st century Republican Party has become.
That's pretty genius there.
posted by petebest at 6:58 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trump doesn't like to do actual work. He's going to let his Cabinet and VP run things
...according to the Kasich adviser (who spoke only under the condition that he not be named), Donald Jr. wanted to make him an offer nonetheless: Did he have any interest in being the most powerful vice president in history?posted by kirkaracha at 7:11 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
When Kasich’s adviser asked how this would be the case, Donald Jr. explained that his father’s vice president would be in charge of domestic and foreign policy.
Then what, the adviser asked, would Trump be in charge of?
“Making America great again” was the casual reply.
Teen Vogue: Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Made over $420,000 Selling Access to the President-elect on New Year's Eve
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 PM on January 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 PM on January 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
And here we are! Oh yeah that chest-deep-in-gasoline-flicking-matches-at-each-other sensation is back!
Yep.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:41 PM on January 1, 2017
Teen Vogue has really been shattering expectations lately. It's going to be weird seeing politics wonks with a copy of Teen Vogue next to The Economist and the WSJ.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
Putin’s Real Long Game – The world order we know is already over, and Russia is moving fast to grab the advantage. Can Trump figure out the new war in time to win it?
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Can Trump figure out the new war in time to win it?
Can you BE more Bettridge's Law, Politicola?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:01 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
Can you BE more Bettridge's Law, Politicola?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:01 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
the Republican party appears to have been captured by a mix of coal and oil interests (old industry), big money, and outright racists. I don't quite understand the connection, other than maybe that innovative industries are concentrated in the blue states? (But Wall Street? I don't get it.)
Suppose Republican oligarchs (old money and big money) actually accepted climate change as settled science. What would that look like? Consider:
The left had better decide right quick which of its values are indispensable in the current context. For the times, they are a-changing.
posted by perspicio at 8:03 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
Suppose Republican oligarchs (old money and big money) actually accepted climate change as settled science. What would that look like? Consider:
- The world still runs on fossil fuels; there is still no effective substitute for them when it comes to moving bulk goods around the globe.
- Stepping off fossil fuels cedes market power to those who stick with them.
- Unchecked climate change would result in a chaotic culling of human numbers around the globe by dint of resource scarcity (land, water, food, etc.), especially in less developed regions.
- A culling of human numbers in the shorter term by another means would in all probability lessen the effects of climate change and its attendant chaos while simultaneously freeing up resources.
- The failing of liberal democratic governance ensconced in economic capitalism is that providing for everybody while demanding little in return means borrowing against the future, which requires economies to grow endlessly, which in turn means unchecked climate change.
- Republican oligarchs (old money and big money) don't personally have to worry too much about climate change. They can afford to gamble.
The left had better decide right quick which of its values are indispensable in the current context. For the times, they are a-changing.
posted by perspicio at 8:03 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
.@EmrgencyKittens is one of 43 accounts @realDonaldTrump is now following.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
Putin’s Real Long Game – The world order we know is already over, and Russia is moving fast to grab the advantage. Can Trump figure out the new war in time to win it?
Well, you're just a ray of sunshine!
posted by kirkaracha at 8:06 PM on January 1, 2017
Suppose Republican oligarchs (old money and big money) actually accepted climate change as settled science. What would that look like? Consider:
The world still runs on fossil fuels; there is still no effective substitute for them when it comes to moving bulk goods around the globe.
You mean ... it would be harder for Third World manufacturers to compete with the US, particularly if we could place sanctions upon them for their internal use energy derived from fossil fuels? Seriously, you're probably going to see big money change its mind about global warming as soon as a new climate regime can be effectively monetised.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:12 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
The world still runs on fossil fuels; there is still no effective substitute for them when it comes to moving bulk goods around the globe.
You mean ... it would be harder for Third World manufacturers to compete with the US, particularly if we could place sanctions upon them for their internal use energy derived from fossil fuels? Seriously, you're probably going to see big money change its mind about global warming as soon as a new climate regime can be effectively monetised.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:12 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Coal Country Picked Trump. Now, They Want Him To Keep His Promises
"I do believe that my friends and co-workers are safe for now," says coal miner Stacey Moeller. She believes that "for one more year, we're going to be coal miners."
...For Moeller, a single mom and lifelong Democrat, the decision was complicated.
"I did vote for Donald Trump," Moeller says. "It's really hard to even say that because I so dislike his rhetoric. But I voted for him on one singular issue, and that was coal."
She's not alone.
Dave Hathaway of Pennsylvania will be watching Trump, as well. Since the coal mine he worked in closed a year ago, he spent much of 2016 looking for work. The search gained urgency when his son Deacon was born in August.
On Election Day, Hathaway made a choice he hopes will help his long-term job prospects.
"I voted for Trump — I mean, a coal miner would be stupid not to," Hathaway says.
..."He is a whacko; he's never going to stop being a whacko," Hathaway says. "But I mean, the things he did say — the good stuff — was good for the coal mining community. But we'll see what happens."...
posted by futz at 8:12 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
"I do believe that my friends and co-workers are safe for now," says coal miner Stacey Moeller. She believes that "for one more year, we're going to be coal miners."
...For Moeller, a single mom and lifelong Democrat, the decision was complicated.
"I did vote for Donald Trump," Moeller says. "It's really hard to even say that because I so dislike his rhetoric. But I voted for him on one singular issue, and that was coal."
She's not alone.
Dave Hathaway of Pennsylvania will be watching Trump, as well. Since the coal mine he worked in closed a year ago, he spent much of 2016 looking for work. The search gained urgency when his son Deacon was born in August.
On Election Day, Hathaway made a choice he hopes will help his long-term job prospects.
"I voted for Trump — I mean, a coal miner would be stupid not to," Hathaway says.
..."He is a whacko; he's never going to stop being a whacko," Hathaway says. "But I mean, the things he did say — the good stuff — was good for the coal mining community. But we'll see what happens."...
posted by futz at 8:12 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
> how would Republican oligarchs behave if they actually accepted climate change as settled science?
You end up with the "government" of Land of the Dead (2005).
posted by porpoise at 8:13 PM on January 1, 2017
You end up with the "government" of Land of the Dead (2005).
posted by porpoise at 8:13 PM on January 1, 2017
Mmmaybe:
"Morning Joe" Scarborough in the WaPo, Trump’s victory was history rhyming with itself again
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:14 PM on January 1, 2017
"Morning Joe" Scarborough in the WaPo, Trump’s victory was history rhyming with itself again
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:14 PM on January 1, 2017
1. "Critiquing the cutest kittens online" is the tag for that Twitter. That's so Trump - he can't even just look at kittens, he has to critique them. I bet they're all too fat. Sad!
2. That Politico article is quite something. I don't think I've ever read an article in a mainstream news outlet calling for a new Cold War. That was a creepy article, not so much for its content as its logic. I admit that Putin is smart and unpleasant, but he isn't magic - that whole "Putin and his Age of Cyber ultra-warfare will destroy us humble regular Americans unless we have a unified war machine because Putin is just so cunning, I mean, it talks about Putin like he's the Lord of the Flies instead of any mere human. I think that's a very alarming attitude to see in a mainstream publication.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
2. That Politico article is quite something. I don't think I've ever read an article in a mainstream news outlet calling for a new Cold War. That was a creepy article, not so much for its content as its logic. I admit that Putin is smart and unpleasant, but he isn't magic - that whole "Putin and his Age of Cyber ultra-warfare will destroy us humble regular Americans unless we have a unified war machine because Putin is just so cunning, I mean, it talks about Putin like he's the Lord of the Flies instead of any mere human. I think that's a very alarming attitude to see in a mainstream publication.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
@Frowner: it is not simply Putin, his cunning alone, you understand. He's just the face, and maybe the one that sets the direction. Behind him, many, many teams of people are undoubtedly doing planning, analysis, strategy.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:21 PM on January 1, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:21 PM on January 1, 2017
So, seeing as how Trump apparently scored $420,000 on his New Year's thingy, what do we make of his team raising funds for the transition? This piece from Buffalo's NPR station details one such planned event.
I wondered for just a quick minute if he would be using any of the $420K for the transition but then I came back to reality and assumed it would be used to pay interest on his massive business debts. He'll let his schmucks pay for the transition.
It kind of makes me wonder who's donating or paying for these inaugural events for which he's scouring the country for A, B, C or D list entertainment. It's amazing that he can still find patsies for his cons.
posted by Silverstone at 8:23 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I wondered for just a quick minute if he would be using any of the $420K for the transition but then I came back to reality and assumed it would be used to pay interest on his massive business debts. He'll let his schmucks pay for the transition.
It kind of makes me wonder who's donating or paying for these inaugural events for which he's scouring the country for A, B, C or D list entertainment. It's amazing that he can still find patsies for his cons.
posted by Silverstone at 8:23 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
In a strange way, Trump could be just crazy enough — enough of a outlier and a rogue — to expose what Putin’s Russia is and end the current cycle of upheaval and decline. This requires non-standard thinking and leadership — but also purpose, and commitment, and values. It requires faith — for and from the American people and American institutions. And it requires the existence of truth.
If the suppositions of this Politico article are correct, I'm not sure who the bigger dupe is -- Trump or the author.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:28 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
If the suppositions of this Politico article are correct, I'm not sure who the bigger dupe is -- Trump or the author.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:28 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I doubt that the author thinks Trump is up to it :-).
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:29 PM on January 1, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:29 PM on January 1, 2017
Megan McArdle doesn't think much of the suggestion that the outgoing Senate should appoint Merrick Garland: Hacking Democratic Rules Isn’t Good Government
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:30 PM on January 1, 2017
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:30 PM on January 1, 2017
Hacking Democratic Rules Isn’t Good Government
Operating under the presumption that there'll be another chance at democratic governance.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:33 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Operating under the presumption that there'll be another chance at democratic governance.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:33 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Seriously, you're probably going to see big money change its mind about global warming as soon as a new climate regime can be effectively monetised.
Well, that's true enough. Real change doesn't happen until the right people stand to gain from it. But the economy of the new climate regime is still a pittance compared to fossil fuels.
posted by perspicio at 8:33 PM on January 1, 2017
Well, that's true enough. Real change doesn't happen until the right people stand to gain from it. But the economy of the new climate regime is still a pittance compared to fossil fuels.
posted by perspicio at 8:33 PM on January 1, 2017
Suppose Republican oligarchs (old money and big money) actually accepted climate change as settled science. What would that look like?
I absolutely believe they accept it - they're just trying to monetize it. Receding arctic ice means Russo-American oil partnerships and new ice-free shipping routes. Rising seas mean insurance payouts on coastal properties and new construction contracts inland.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:38 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
I absolutely believe they accept it - they're just trying to monetize it. Receding arctic ice means Russo-American oil partnerships and new ice-free shipping routes. Rising seas mean insurance payouts on coastal properties and new construction contracts inland.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:38 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Russia for certain believes in Global Warming and that they can win it.
posted by Artw at 8:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I absolutely believe they accept it - they're just trying to monetize it.
Agreed, it's just that Climate Change monetization looks so tacky, so Denialism is much better for preventing efforts to counteract it.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Agreed, it's just that Climate Change monetization looks so tacky, so Denialism is much better for preventing efforts to counteract it.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Megan McArdle doesn't think
You could have stopped there.
(In passing: given that Megan McArdle's dad was a big fish in the NYC construction trade, in both city govt and the private sector, she has no reason not to know what's coming.)
posted by holgate at 8:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
You could have stopped there.
(In passing: given that Megan McArdle's dad was a big fish in the NYC construction trade, in both city govt and the private sector, she has no reason not to know what's coming.)
posted by holgate at 8:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Megan McArdle doesn't think much of the suggestion that the outgoing Senate should appoint Merrick Garland:
Megan McArdle doesn't think much at all - she's a Rand-worshipping glibertarian who spent most of the Bush administration being demonstrably, provably wrong about every damn thing. She's one of the architects of the Republicans' transformation into the Flat Earth Society.
(dammit, on preview, holgate beat me to it.)
posted by soundguy99 at 8:52 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
Megan McArdle doesn't think much at all - she's a Rand-worshipping glibertarian who spent most of the Bush administration being demonstrably, provably wrong about every damn thing. She's one of the architects of the Republicans' transformation into the Flat Earth Society.
(dammit, on preview, holgate beat me to it.)
posted by soundguy99 at 8:52 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
she's a Rand-worshipping glibertarian who spent most of the Bush administration being demonstrably, provably wrong about every damn thing.
There oughta be like a Who's Who of these people with biographies and stats and origin stories because there are so fucking many of them
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:06 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
There oughta be like a Who's Who of these people with biographies and stats and origin stories because there are so fucking many of them
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:06 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
Rand-worshipping
In hindsight, I partly blame Rand for popularizing the fetishization of the market and unbridled capitalism. By the Bizarro values of Randworld, the rich and the strong and the ruthless are ubermensches deserving of admiration, but if you spare a thought for people worse-off than yourself you're a bleeding-heart looter who literally deserves to die.
It allows certain people to paint what in a healthy society would be dangerous vices as virtues, and enables the exultation of the billionaire and ruthless capitalist as the pinnacle of human achievement, regardless of what rot lies underneath or how many people they stepped on to get there.
Ironically, many of the average Tea Party people who admire her are the people who in Randworld would be exploitable nobodies at best. A lot of people fancy themselves to be Galts and Reardans rather than the nameless masses who the Galts and Reardans casually allow to die or suffer to suit their own needs.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:16 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
In hindsight, I partly blame Rand for popularizing the fetishization of the market and unbridled capitalism. By the Bizarro values of Randworld, the rich and the strong and the ruthless are ubermensches deserving of admiration, but if you spare a thought for people worse-off than yourself you're a bleeding-heart looter who literally deserves to die.
It allows certain people to paint what in a healthy society would be dangerous vices as virtues, and enables the exultation of the billionaire and ruthless capitalist as the pinnacle of human achievement, regardless of what rot lies underneath or how many people they stepped on to get there.
Ironically, many of the average Tea Party people who admire her are the people who in Randworld would be exploitable nobodies at best. A lot of people fancy themselves to be Galts and Reardans rather than the nameless masses who the Galts and Reardans casually allow to die or suffer to suit their own needs.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:16 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
To go meta-ish for a second, Megan McArdle is a negative contributor to any discourse: choosing not to read anything under her byline is better than reading it, expending mental energy on why she's wrong, expending further mental energy on why she still gets paid to be so wrong, and especially on arguing with the people who think she's been right from the outset. Even the mental energy put into this comment is a waste, but not as much as acknowledging her existence over recent years.
posted by holgate at 9:18 PM on January 1, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by holgate at 9:18 PM on January 1, 2017 [18 favorites]
I mean, in the general sense McArdle's right about any sort of last-minute procedural-hack confirmation of Garland being a waste of time, but her claim that it would be wrong mostly because undermining faith in our system of government blah blah blah is pretty rich considering her other examples of "procedural hacks" are either Republican hacks which she does not acknowledge or "hacks" that took place because the Republicans have refused their basic duties as servants of the people (a fact she also fails to mention.) Also considering she spent the early part of the century engaging in all sorts of verbal gymnastics and lies of omission to justify everything the Bush administration did, including a wide variety of "hacks."
It's bitterly ironic that apparently she's got a new book out titled, "The Up Side of Down: Why Failing Well Is the Key to Success”, because that's literally the story of her life - a liar and mediocre thinker who keeps "failing upwards."
(I'm only expending this much energy on McArdle because Joe in Australia is, um, from Australia, and may not be aware of McArdle's history.)
posted by soundguy99 at 9:29 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's bitterly ironic that apparently she's got a new book out titled, "The Up Side of Down: Why Failing Well Is the Key to Success”, because that's literally the story of her life - a liar and mediocre thinker who keeps "failing upwards."
(I'm only expending this much energy on McArdle because Joe in Australia is, um, from Australia, and may not be aware of McArdle's history.)
posted by soundguy99 at 9:29 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, it's, like, nostalgic to rant about her - reminds me of the days when we thought Shrub was a horrible president . . . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 9:31 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by soundguy99 at 9:31 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I voted for Trump — I mean, a coal miner would be stupid not to," Hathaway says.
According to the chart in the article, coal had gradually declined from ~52% share of power generated in 1998 to ~48% in 2008 before starting a series of steep declines to a projected 30.4% share in 2016. This corresponds with a rise of natural gas (and fracking) from ~15% in 1998 to a projected 34.1% in 2016. I guess coal miners are too fucking stupid to read charts.
They're certainly too fucking stupid to vote for the candidate who proposed "a $30 billion plan to ensure that coal miners and their families get the benefits they’ve earned and respect they deserve, to invest in economic diversification and job creation, and to make coal communities an engine of US economic growth in the 21st century as they have been for generations."
And too fucking stupid to vote for the candidate who said:
So for example, I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right?Let's ignore every other fucking word she said and focus on her saying we'll "put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business." How dare she accurately and frankly describe the economics of the energy industry! Won't somebody think of the poor white working class?
And we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.
Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:33 PM on January 1, 2017 [53 favorites]
A lot of people fancy themselves to be Galts and Reardans rather than the nameless masses who the Galts and Reardens casually allow to die or suffer to suit their own needs.
The most amusing part of what I know of Ayn Rand's life is that she regarded openly cheating on her husband with Nathaniel Branden as a natural and ethical part of her philosophy, but then painted Branden as an embezzling traitor to the Objectivist cause when he decided that she was too old for him.
posted by Coventry at 9:39 PM on January 1, 2017
The most amusing part of what I know of Ayn Rand's life is that she regarded openly cheating on her husband with Nathaniel Branden as a natural and ethical part of her philosophy, but then painted Branden as an embezzling traitor to the Objectivist cause when he decided that she was too old for him.
posted by Coventry at 9:39 PM on January 1, 2017
On the subject of the "enemies list", it's a pretty frightening idea, even if I suspect it's partly for intimidation. Trump has already pissed off a lot of people and will only piss off more. Staunch #NeverTrumpers? His political enemies? People he fleeced in the past? States? Organizations? Business rivals? Protesters? Every musician or late-night comedian who criticized him? Everybody who made fun of his hands on Twitter? Celebrities who noped out of his inauguration? All of the above?
Considering all the businessmen he's in bed with and all the personal info they have on people who buy from or work for them (i.e, Thiel), I'm more than a little paranoid about how exactly such a list would be composed.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:45 PM on January 1, 2017
Considering all the businessmen he's in bed with and all the personal info they have on people who buy from or work for them (i.e, Thiel), I'm more than a little paranoid about how exactly such a list would be composed.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:45 PM on January 1, 2017
Russia for certain believes in Global Warming and that they can win it.
Newly accessible oil, new warm water ports and trade routes, a massive thawed landmass in Siberia that can still produce when agriculture starts going to shit further south... they're holding a decent hand. Thank god Canada doesn't want to wreck the world for a quick buck with that strategy, they'd also be a potential post-global-desiccation powerhouse. Though I'm sure there are plenty of people in Putin/Trump circles dreaming about getting their hooks in them, too.
One of the few things about 2016 that I'm thankful for is that renewables became drastically more affordable. I think the race is now well and truly on between energy sources and that's going to be a big deciding factor in how things go in the next few years.
And now that I'm thinking about it, being on the verge of a boom in renewable energy could be a huge force multiplier for a serious effort to rebuild local and state Democratic benches - when those new coal and manufacturing jobs don't show up and the existing ones keep going away, if you can show up with a detailed, feasible green jobs plan at the local and state level where most of that company-wooing, job-creating sausage really gets made, that's a real attractive proposition. Like kirkaracha just said in the post above, Hillary had a great plan for this, but I think hammering it on the local level might reap a lot of rewards - having Democratic candidates all across the country hitting hard on this message of "these jobs are there for the taking, and the only thing standing in the way is a Republican party beholden to the old economy that left you stranded out here" would be a thing to behold, especially after the very public sight of Trump the so-called "outsider" wasting no time in jumping the line at the same money trough every Republican leader has fed at for decades.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Newly accessible oil, new warm water ports and trade routes, a massive thawed landmass in Siberia that can still produce when agriculture starts going to shit further south... they're holding a decent hand. Thank god Canada doesn't want to wreck the world for a quick buck with that strategy, they'd also be a potential post-global-desiccation powerhouse. Though I'm sure there are plenty of people in Putin/Trump circles dreaming about getting their hooks in them, too.
One of the few things about 2016 that I'm thankful for is that renewables became drastically more affordable. I think the race is now well and truly on between energy sources and that's going to be a big deciding factor in how things go in the next few years.
And now that I'm thinking about it, being on the verge of a boom in renewable energy could be a huge force multiplier for a serious effort to rebuild local and state Democratic benches - when those new coal and manufacturing jobs don't show up and the existing ones keep going away, if you can show up with a detailed, feasible green jobs plan at the local and state level where most of that company-wooing, job-creating sausage really gets made, that's a real attractive proposition. Like kirkaracha just said in the post above, Hillary had a great plan for this, but I think hammering it on the local level might reap a lot of rewards - having Democratic candidates all across the country hitting hard on this message of "these jobs are there for the taking, and the only thing standing in the way is a Republican party beholden to the old economy that left you stranded out here" would be a thing to behold, especially after the very public sight of Trump the so-called "outsider" wasting no time in jumping the line at the same money trough every Republican leader has fed at for decades.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Thank god Canada doesn't want to wreck the world for a quick buck with that strategy, they'd also be a potential post-global-desiccation powerhouse.
And that Alberta has (for now) a NDP provincial government, even though the right in Alberta, which was already pretty nutso, appears to have gone full redhat loon against Rachel Notley.
if you can show up with a detailed, feasible green jobs plan at the local and state level where most of that company-wooing, job-creating sausage really gets made, that's a real attractive proposition.
No. Sadly, no. I've seen this in local elections. It is now holy writ among right-wingers that solar is a big-government boondoggle and a sin against Jesus the coal miner who wanted us all to burn more coal.
posted by holgate at 10:06 PM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
And that Alberta has (for now) a NDP provincial government, even though the right in Alberta, which was already pretty nutso, appears to have gone full redhat loon against Rachel Notley.
if you can show up with a detailed, feasible green jobs plan at the local and state level where most of that company-wooing, job-creating sausage really gets made, that's a real attractive proposition.
No. Sadly, no. I've seen this in local elections. It is now holy writ among right-wingers that solar is a big-government boondoggle and a sin against Jesus the coal miner who wanted us all to burn more coal.
posted by holgate at 10:06 PM on January 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
Even the mental energy put into this comment is a waste, but not as much as acknowledging her existence over recent years.
Who's Megan McArdle?
posted by philip-random at 10:24 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Who's Megan McArdle?
posted by philip-random at 10:24 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
What.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:29 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
For those who criticize WikiLeaks for not publishing RNC emails or more Putin docs: why don't you just publish them yourselves?– Glenn Greenwald, a few days ago.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:29 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Megan McArdle doesn't think much of the suggestion that the outgoing Senate should appoint Merrick Garland: Hacking Democratic Rules Isn’t Good Government
Good governance doesn't matter now. Norms are dead. They won based on 8 years of destroying them. It's only about playing the power game. The American people just proved nothing will be punished.
The only question should be, would Republicans do it in the same situation?
Then Democrats should play every hard card available.
Until they learn that lesson, they're not even trying to compete. And there's very limited learning opportunities left at this point.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:35 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
Good governance doesn't matter now. Norms are dead. They won based on 8 years of destroying them. It's only about playing the power game. The American people just proved nothing will be punished.
The only question should be, would Republicans do it in the same situation?
Then Democrats should play every hard card available.
Until they learn that lesson, they're not even trying to compete. And there's very limited learning opportunities left at this point.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:35 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
> Megan McArdle doesn't think much of the suggestion that the outgoing Senate should appoint Merrick Garland: Hacking Democratic Rules Isn’t Good Government
Wait until someone talks to McArdle about all of the unprecedented obstruction that happened during the last eight years while she was presumably in a coma.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:38 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Wait until someone talks to McArdle about all of the unprecedented obstruction that happened during the last eight years while she was presumably in a coma.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:38 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
How many people work at Mar-a-Lago? It's still a business, and I bet that $420,000 pays partly for people's salaries there. Problem is, of course, the President shouldn't be in that kind of business.
posted by monospace at 10:39 PM on January 1, 2017
posted by monospace at 10:39 PM on January 1, 2017
Quite an interesting translation of and commentary on an article by the 2013 Russian military chief-of-staff on modern warfare. Linked from that Politico please-give-me-a-consulting-gig,-Mr-Trump-you're-so-awesome piece.
In conclusion, I would like to say that no matter what forces the enemy has, no matter how well-developed his forces and means of armed conflict may be, forms and methods for overcoming them can be found. He will always have vulnerabilities and that means that adequate means of opposing him exist.posted by Coventry at 10:43 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]This is an obvious, if necessarily veiled allusion to Russia’s relative weakness compared with the West today and, probably, China tomorrow. The answer is not to not have conflicts, but rather to ensure they are fought in the ways that best suit your needs.
Gentle reminder that the guy who humped a chair during the 2nd debate will be sworn in in a couple of weeks.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
As if anyone can forget.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:47 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Gentle reminder that the guy who humped a chair during the 2nd debate will be sworn in in a couple of weeks.
That's like the 564th worst thing he did and won anyway.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
That's like the 564th worst thing he did and won anyway.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:49 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
This reminds me that last week (Wednesday at 12:30ish pm?) I saw the tail end of a CNN panel interview in which the host asked if there was anything that they wanted to add perhaps something that was brewing behind the scenes of the donald transition that hadn't hit the news cycle yet (?) and one person responded that donny had given some of his Appointees the power to appoint other people. This had led to situations where 2 different people have been offered the same position, one by donny and another by an Appointee.
It wouldn't surprise me if this were true. It seems like Trump has mapped out the presidency as being something like a cross between what one sees in movies about ruling a kingdom, and how movies are made, with Trump imagining himself as producer.
The appointment of underlings is in both views something the producer or king does at a whim, to gain favor or reward loyalty. It has little to do with ability, more what personal attachment and gain. This is why I still believe the best plan of attack against his presidency is to sow division among those competing interests who are going to be fighting for their turf under Trump. If you can make Trump see some of his appointees and cabinet members as embarrassments, he'll dump them for someone else. Instead of asking his underlings about things Trump is saying, it'll be better to talk with those lackies about their own plans and then pressure Trump to back up what they say, while suggesting the popular image problems with the plans or where they contradict the great Trump's own claims.
Trump's cabinet almost certainly will be riven with in fighting and interest in different goals since there is such weak leadership at the top with no clear direction being passed down as an agenda for action. It's difficult to imagine, say, Flynn and Kushner agreeing on what's most important to do and when is best to do it, add in the rest of his clown troupe and they're all going to have their own beliefs on what is most vital.
Since Trump doesn't really adhere to many, or maybe even any, of the beliefs of his toadies, their concerns over religion or realpolitiks have no intrinsic meaning to him and can and will be jettisoned should he believe it best suits his interests for that to happen. Pushing for the bootlickers to run afoul of each other's interests makes the whole administration less functional and Trump look weaker. Since he doesn't know much of anything about the job or the myriad issues government effects, the appearance of incompetence shouldn't be too hard to gain if he is actually forced to try and make decisions out of that profound state of ignorance.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:33 AM on January 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
It wouldn't surprise me if this were true. It seems like Trump has mapped out the presidency as being something like a cross between what one sees in movies about ruling a kingdom, and how movies are made, with Trump imagining himself as producer.
The appointment of underlings is in both views something the producer or king does at a whim, to gain favor or reward loyalty. It has little to do with ability, more what personal attachment and gain. This is why I still believe the best plan of attack against his presidency is to sow division among those competing interests who are going to be fighting for their turf under Trump. If you can make Trump see some of his appointees and cabinet members as embarrassments, he'll dump them for someone else. Instead of asking his underlings about things Trump is saying, it'll be better to talk with those lackies about their own plans and then pressure Trump to back up what they say, while suggesting the popular image problems with the plans or where they contradict the great Trump's own claims.
Trump's cabinet almost certainly will be riven with in fighting and interest in different goals since there is such weak leadership at the top with no clear direction being passed down as an agenda for action. It's difficult to imagine, say, Flynn and Kushner agreeing on what's most important to do and when is best to do it, add in the rest of his clown troupe and they're all going to have their own beliefs on what is most vital.
Since Trump doesn't really adhere to many, or maybe even any, of the beliefs of his toadies, their concerns over religion or realpolitiks have no intrinsic meaning to him and can and will be jettisoned should he believe it best suits his interests for that to happen. Pushing for the bootlickers to run afoul of each other's interests makes the whole administration less functional and Trump look weaker. Since he doesn't know much of anything about the job or the myriad issues government effects, the appearance of incompetence shouldn't be too hard to gain if he is actually forced to try and make decisions out of that profound state of ignorance.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:33 AM on January 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
That doesn't, of course, mean his devoted followers will notice, being as ignorant as Trump, but it might be enough to tick off some of those already less enthused.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:35 AM on January 2, 2017
posted by gusottertrout at 1:35 AM on January 2, 2017
few can politically afford the fallout if they were to say "look, we'll cooperate with you and form a caucus for Typical Moderate Republican shit if you just help us kick the fucker out so he can't cause Armageddon."
I think Dems could definitely politically get away with this. There'd be some die hards who don't understand political reality who cry "sell out," but I think MeFi represents the Democratic mainstream pretty well, and there's a strong "anyone but Trump" feeling here.
Ok, but what if the Dems had to sign off on the First Amendment Defense Act to get rid of Trump? (Which makes it legal to discriminate against LGBT people.) Or end Medicare? Would we cheer them on? I certainly wouldn't. If the deal is betray the core values and welfare of your constituents to get rid of a Republican clown for another Republican who isn't as much of a clown, that's not a great deal. And I DO think Trump is worldwide threat to the human race.
But cutting any kind of deal that ends with Republicans getting the legislation they want AND also getting rid of Trump (which they also want) is a false deal. The ONLY slight upside to the current situation is that anything that happens is on Republicans now. If the Republicans want to get rid of Trump, they have the ability to do that. But as soon as the offer is "we'll impeach Trump if you give us ____" then they're scamming you. What they will be asking for is cover, for someone to blame to their constituents so they will continue to vote Republican.
posted by threeturtles at 1:47 AM on January 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
I think Dems could definitely politically get away with this. There'd be some die hards who don't understand political reality who cry "sell out," but I think MeFi represents the Democratic mainstream pretty well, and there's a strong "anyone but Trump" feeling here.
Ok, but what if the Dems had to sign off on the First Amendment Defense Act to get rid of Trump? (Which makes it legal to discriminate against LGBT people.) Or end Medicare? Would we cheer them on? I certainly wouldn't. If the deal is betray the core values and welfare of your constituents to get rid of a Republican clown for another Republican who isn't as much of a clown, that's not a great deal. And I DO think Trump is worldwide threat to the human race.
But cutting any kind of deal that ends with Republicans getting the legislation they want AND also getting rid of Trump (which they also want) is a false deal. The ONLY slight upside to the current situation is that anything that happens is on Republicans now. If the Republicans want to get rid of Trump, they have the ability to do that. But as soon as the offer is "we'll impeach Trump if you give us ____" then they're scamming you. What they will be asking for is cover, for someone to blame to their constituents so they will continue to vote Republican.
posted by threeturtles at 1:47 AM on January 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
I popped into Livejournal for a bit, and the current status of ONTD-Political is just depressing. Currently the only things that are being posted there are rants against Clinton and the DNC, and rants dismissing the idea of Russian hacking. It really does remind me of what David Niewart said:
posted by happyroach at 3:06 AM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Yet again, I find it fascinating that nearly every single ‘progressive’ I’ve seen pooh-poohing the fact that Russia’s intelligence services conducted an all-out cyberattack on America’s election system, with the full intent of undermining our democracy, is a hardcore Hillary Hater who almost certainly voted for Sanders or Stein. It makes crystal clear what I believed well before the election — that these ‘progressives’ are so blinded by their disdain for centrist liberalism that they simply are incapable of comprehending the reality of fascism when it smacks them right in the face.And that's optimistic. I keep trying, but finding less and less reason to believe that ontd-political is completely compromised, given that it's on a Russian owned and Russian located site. And if this reflects the current state f the Left across the internet...This completely removes any optimism I had that the opposition will be able to get our act together in 2020 or 2024. I'm just hoping that I'll be able to live until the Democrats manage to find an acceptable straight white male to run in 2028.
posted by happyroach at 3:06 AM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Trump and the CIA (John Cassidy in The New Yorker)
posted by kingless at 3:51 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
In taking this tack, Trump also invited his political opponents to attack him where his Administration’s grip on power will be weakest: in the U.S. Senate, where the Republicans will have a majority of just two seats.Not exactly cause for optimism, but there are only degrees of gloom nowadays.
posted by kingless at 3:51 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Livejournal has been compromised for years (thanks SUP!), so I wouldn't take the discourse on ONTD as a reliable indicator, happyroach.
posted by lineofsight at 3:58 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by lineofsight at 3:58 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
And it's more compromised than ever because since a couple of days, it's now hosted in Moscow.
Lots of Russian and Ukrainian bloggers have left LiveJournal for Dreamwidth, or are busy doing so now.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:14 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Lots of Russian and Ukrainian bloggers have left LiveJournal for Dreamwidth, or are busy doing so now.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:14 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's an open FPP from a few days ago about LiveJournal.
posted by XMLicious at 4:48 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 4:48 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
New Yorker's Guide to the Women's March on Washington
posted by Mchelly at 4:54 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 4:54 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Reinforcing the basic idea that in order to vote for Trump you had to decide he was lying about everything and be OK with that because he was just doing it to lie to those other dumb ass Republicans, not to you.
Related:
A mixture of gullibility and cynicism had been an outstanding characteristic of mob mentality before it became an everyday phenomenon of masses. In an ever-changing, incomprehensible, world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything is possible and that nothing was true… Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow. The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness"Those who do not understand history, eh?
-- Hannah Arendt; The Origins of Totalitarianism
posted by jaduncan at 4:58 AM on January 2, 2017 [39 favorites]
That same Arendt quote is being flogged on Facebook by the Berner/Stein holdouts who dismiss the Russian hacking scandal as US propaganda.
Those who do nothing but argue about the meaning of history are doomed to repeat it as well.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:02 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Those who do nothing but argue about the meaning of history are doomed to repeat it as well.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:02 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
That same Arendt quote is being flogged on Facebook by the Berner/Stein holdouts who dismiss the Russian hacking scandal as US propaganda.
I'm still more comfortable applying it to the guy who has freely admitted to his own post-election rallies that he was just saying things during the election campaign that he didn't actually believe for tactical reasons. I'm fairly confident the argument could be won, given that the hat fits like a cheaply made red cap on an sweatily angry racist.
posted by jaduncan at 5:10 AM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm still more comfortable applying it to the guy who has freely admitted to his own post-election rallies that he was just saying things during the election campaign that he didn't actually believe for tactical reasons. I'm fairly confident the argument could be won, given that the hat fits like a cheaply made red cap on an sweatily angry racist.
posted by jaduncan at 5:10 AM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
You're talking about different people. The chemtrails/Clinton-conspiracy leftists desperate to dismiss the Russian involvement so they can continue to whack off to Wikileaks are not the MAGA brigade or the @deplorables.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:20 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:20 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Indeed I am. I'd be arguing that it's not a good fit in comparison, and that we need to unify.
posted by jaduncan at 5:23 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 5:23 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
We surely do. I'm not supporting that misuse of Arendt, I'm just looking at FB for the first time in a few days and that's the kind of stuff I'm seeing from my friends of that stripe. At least the ones I haven't muted out of frustration. And the resistance to unifying is coming more from that end of the spectrum.
That quotation happyroach just provided is right on:
"these ‘progressives’ are so blinded by their disdain for centrist liberalism that they simply are incapable of comprehending the reality of fascism when it smacks them right in the face."
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:27 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
That quotation happyroach just provided is right on:
"these ‘progressives’ are so blinded by their disdain for centrist liberalism that they simply are incapable of comprehending the reality of fascism when it smacks them right in the face."
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:27 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yep. My challenge to people recently has been that if they really think that HRC and Trump are the same they should be putting *at least* the same amount of effort into resisting an actual President rather than merely a candidate.
Time to shine.
posted by jaduncan at 5:42 AM on January 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
Time to shine.
posted by jaduncan at 5:42 AM on January 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
"Surprise, Trump will likely not have “new information” to offer this week on Russian espionage vs the DNC. Which means (among other things), … we’re likely to hear more of this line of argument, road-tested Sunday by Sean Spicer … : “Hillary got debate Qs!”" [Link]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:41 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:41 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
"Surprise, Trump will likely not have “new information” to offer this week on Russian espionage vs the DNC. Which means (among other things), … we’re likely to hear more of this line of argument, road-tested Sunday by Sean Spicer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4pskO7bGLs … : “Hillary got debate Qs!”"
Trump only knows how to campaign and hasn't a fucking clue on how to govern.
In other news, bears shit in woods and Pope revealed to be Catholic.
posted by Talez at 6:44 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Trump only knows how to campaign and hasn't a fucking clue on how to govern.
In other news, bears shit in woods and Pope revealed to be Catholic.
posted by Talez at 6:44 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
So how many times has he pulled the "I'll totally have a press conference where I'll explain everything; nevermind it's cancelled" routine? He did it over Melania's immigration status and his plan for addressing conflicts of interest too. And people are still falling for it somehow.
posted by zachlipton at 7:02 AM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 7:02 AM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
roomthreeseventeen: "Surprise, Trump will likely not have “new information” to offer this week on Russian espionage vs the DNC.
Are we not considering the possibility that he'll just up straight lie to the cameras? He could go with the Wikleaks implication that the murder of DNC staffer Seth Rich was because he was the leaker instead of Russian hackers, and Trump''s followers will happily believe it because it fits with their Clinton "body count" conspiracy theory that the Clintons frequently have their enemies killed - an amusing conspiracy theory since it requires them to be both incredibly ruthless and inept about who they kill. See also: Hillary managed to get millions of illegal voters in California... which is the one state where it wouldn't make a difference. A corollary to: Obama is a Machiavellian dictator ruling us with an iron fist...as well as completely inept, lacks leadership skills, and takes too many vacations.
posted by bluecore at 7:05 AM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Are we not considering the possibility that he'll just up straight lie to the cameras? He could go with the Wikleaks implication that the murder of DNC staffer Seth Rich was because he was the leaker instead of Russian hackers, and Trump''s followers will happily believe it because it fits with their Clinton "body count" conspiracy theory that the Clintons frequently have their enemies killed - an amusing conspiracy theory since it requires them to be both incredibly ruthless and inept about who they kill. See also: Hillary managed to get millions of illegal voters in California... which is the one state where it wouldn't make a difference. A corollary to: Obama is a Machiavellian dictator ruling us with an iron fist...as well as completely inept, lacks leadership skills, and takes too many vacations.
posted by bluecore at 7:05 AM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
an amusing conspiracy theory since it requires them to be both incredibly ruthless and inept about who they kill. See also:
The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies [...] However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:19 AM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies [...] However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:19 AM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
Wait, does Greenwald have access to the RNC emails? Because that sounds like a Freudian slip from someone who has access.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:30 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 7:30 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
> All our experience since 1976 has been of Republicans marching in determined lockstep whatever their personal disagreements might be behind the scenes, but the Republicans have never had a leader like Trump. There are a lot of career Republicans who actually do care about the country, if not about teeny little individual people, and they are apt to see Trump as a threat to everything they have ever believed in. They said as much before the election, and they've been quiet since but then Trump hasn't been Doing Stuff as President.
Judging from the folks I have been trying to reach out to, the career Republicans who say they care about the country? Well, I'll fucking believe it when I see it, because everything I have heard has been folks trying to minimize the threat Trump poses to the nation and shore up their own self-belief in the honor of the party. I have lost faith in reaching out, and I have lost faith because--well, corb points out there's a lot of bad faith concerns and lack of trust, but I have spent my entire political adulthood watching a Democratic administration campaign on reaching out and trying to find consensus, and watching the GOP lock step to resist any kind of public bipartisan compromise. Eight years Dems have been trying to reach across the goddamn aisles, corb! Eight years! We are not the party that is generating this history of bad faith, and conservative failure to acknowledge their own part in the mess that we are in is, frankly, half the reason we are in this mess! I am so tired of compromising with liars and crooks who don't honor their word! I am tired of looking for fault within ourselves to reach out to people who fuck over the nation to serve themselves, and won't even admit when their own 'side' has contributed greater fault!
I am tired of yielding ground to a party that won't cede me or mine anything. I am tired of pretending we can negotiate with terrorists. And if the GOP doesn't like being seen as terrorists by young liberals my age, maybe they shouldn't have spent the last decade borrowing their political ploys from terrorist guidebooks!
And the Republicans I have spoken to, well, there's no acknowledgement that this might be bad for America. There's just an overwhelming focus on Dems as the Enemy. When I reach out to Republicans who have been Establishment for a while, who claim to be so confused how we go here and who love the nation.... well, it's funny, but they don't love the nation enough to hold the nation's values higher than the values of Republicans Beating Democrats. The party is rotten. And I am done making excuses or even letting folks save face; we are in bad bad shit, and I am sick of letting conservatives tell themselves lives to let themselves feel moral while they rape the nation of its political institutions, integrity, and national sovereignty.
I know corb is trying, but damn if you aren't the only person I see who is even trying to listen, and you're certainly one of very few I see trying to put some political change where their mouth is. And that's with me bending over fucking backwards to try and reach out to whomever I can find who might give a shit what I have to say. Reality, patriotism, the safety and honor of the fucking nation--even national sovereignty--well, those matter less to every party member I can find than beating the Democrats in the political arena. If there are Republicans who care about the country, they can put up or shut the fuck up about their so-called honor.
If they care to govern or make the country great, awesome. Fucking act like it. As it is, well, without actual action to save the nation, I wouldn't spit on a Republican if he was on fire--and like I said, I got fifty years' voting in me. I am tired of ceding ground or trying to understand. I am tired of pretending this is normal because I am afraid. So I'm going to be blunt and impolite and crude with my feelings, and if that makes Republicans around me upset and ashamed, they damned well should feel that way. We need some fucking shame back in politics, goddammit.
posted by sciatrix at 7:43 AM on January 2, 2017 [67 favorites]
Judging from the folks I have been trying to reach out to, the career Republicans who say they care about the country? Well, I'll fucking believe it when I see it, because everything I have heard has been folks trying to minimize the threat Trump poses to the nation and shore up their own self-belief in the honor of the party. I have lost faith in reaching out, and I have lost faith because--well, corb points out there's a lot of bad faith concerns and lack of trust, but I have spent my entire political adulthood watching a Democratic administration campaign on reaching out and trying to find consensus, and watching the GOP lock step to resist any kind of public bipartisan compromise. Eight years Dems have been trying to reach across the goddamn aisles, corb! Eight years! We are not the party that is generating this history of bad faith, and conservative failure to acknowledge their own part in the mess that we are in is, frankly, half the reason we are in this mess! I am so tired of compromising with liars and crooks who don't honor their word! I am tired of looking for fault within ourselves to reach out to people who fuck over the nation to serve themselves, and won't even admit when their own 'side' has contributed greater fault!
I am tired of yielding ground to a party that won't cede me or mine anything. I am tired of pretending we can negotiate with terrorists. And if the GOP doesn't like being seen as terrorists by young liberals my age, maybe they shouldn't have spent the last decade borrowing their political ploys from terrorist guidebooks!
And the Republicans I have spoken to, well, there's no acknowledgement that this might be bad for America. There's just an overwhelming focus on Dems as the Enemy. When I reach out to Republicans who have been Establishment for a while, who claim to be so confused how we go here and who love the nation.... well, it's funny, but they don't love the nation enough to hold the nation's values higher than the values of Republicans Beating Democrats. The party is rotten. And I am done making excuses or even letting folks save face; we are in bad bad shit, and I am sick of letting conservatives tell themselves lives to let themselves feel moral while they rape the nation of its political institutions, integrity, and national sovereignty.
I know corb is trying, but damn if you aren't the only person I see who is even trying to listen, and you're certainly one of very few I see trying to put some political change where their mouth is. And that's with me bending over fucking backwards to try and reach out to whomever I can find who might give a shit what I have to say. Reality, patriotism, the safety and honor of the fucking nation--even national sovereignty--well, those matter less to every party member I can find than beating the Democrats in the political arena. If there are Republicans who care about the country, they can put up or shut the fuck up about their so-called honor.
If they care to govern or make the country great, awesome. Fucking act like it. As it is, well, without actual action to save the nation, I wouldn't spit on a Republican if he was on fire--and like I said, I got fifty years' voting in me. I am tired of ceding ground or trying to understand. I am tired of pretending this is normal because I am afraid. So I'm going to be blunt and impolite and crude with my feelings, and if that makes Republicans around me upset and ashamed, they damned well should feel that way. We need some fucking shame back in politics, goddammit.
posted by sciatrix at 7:43 AM on January 2, 2017 [67 favorites]
For those who criticize WikiLeaks for not publishing RNC emails or more Putin docs: why don't you just publish them yourselves?
– Glenn Greenwald, a few days ago.
Wait, does Greenwald have access to the RNC emails?
Or, indeed, he's seen what Wikileaks has and is suggesting that other journalists ask to see it also, and publish it themselves. Which assumes Wikileaks would share it with outher journalists, a strange assumption when Wikileaks apparently doesn't want this stuff to be public, or they would make it public.
No matter how I look at it, it's a strange tweet. Like he's saying "Hey, it's my job to criticize Democrats. Other people are supposed to have the criticizing Republicans beat covered."
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:59 AM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
– Glenn Greenwald, a few days ago.
Wait, does Greenwald have access to the RNC emails?
Assange, whose organization has released embarrassing Democratic National Committee emails believed to have been hacked by Russian entities, said the group doesn't have anything on Trump that is more controversial than the GOP presidential nominee's own public comments.So I'm not sure if Greenwald is trying to say "Wikileaks doesn't publish that stuff for the same reason you don't - because they don't have it" (though Assange says they do) or that the stuff they have is "just more of the same" embarrassing information that's already publically available, and why doesn't the main stream media talk more about that?
“We do have some information about the Republican campaign,” he said Friday, according to The Washington Post.
“I mean, it’s from a point of view of an investigative journalist organization like WikiLeaks, the problem with the Trump campaign is it’s actually hard for us to publish much more controversial material than what comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth every second day," Assange said.
Or, indeed, he's seen what Wikileaks has and is suggesting that other journalists ask to see it also, and publish it themselves. Which assumes Wikileaks would share it with outher journalists, a strange assumption when Wikileaks apparently doesn't want this stuff to be public, or they would make it public.
No matter how I look at it, it's a strange tweet. Like he's saying "Hey, it's my job to criticize Democrats. Other people are supposed to have the criticizing Republicans beat covered."
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:59 AM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
That same Arendt quote is being flogged on Facebook by the Berner/Stein holdouts who dismiss the Russian hacking scandal as US propaganda.
Three things about this:
1) Facebook. I implore everyone to please leave it with all due haste. This bespells certain and imminent doom. Again.
2) Berner/Stein holdouts should be feasting on a buffet of Trump and none else. They cannot see reason; they should only see Trump and learn of their role in his putsch. May someone forgive them someday.
3) If the Russian hacking was a scandal, something would be done about Trump. The Russian hacking is an extended news cycle to fill time between tweets. In a few weeks it will harden into a footnote like Cheney's energy "task force". Show me anything dedicated to following this past its click-life and I will raise one eyebrow.
posted by petebest at 8:05 AM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Three things about this:
1) Facebook. I implore everyone to please leave it with all due haste. This bespells certain and imminent doom. Again.
2) Berner/Stein holdouts should be feasting on a buffet of Trump and none else. They cannot see reason; they should only see Trump and learn of their role in his putsch. May someone forgive them someday.
3) If the Russian hacking was a scandal, something would be done about Trump. The Russian hacking is an extended news cycle to fill time between tweets. In a few weeks it will harden into a footnote like Cheney's energy "task force". Show me anything dedicated to following this past its click-life and I will raise one eyebrow.
posted by petebest at 8:05 AM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
If the Russian hacking was a scandal, something would be done about Trump.
What does this mean? What can be done, short of impeachment? And who says impeachment is not a possibility? But it would have to be done by Republicans, and they are only going to do it, if at all, in a way that saves face for the party. They certainly can't do it before he takes office.
Show me anything dedicated to following this past its click-life and I will raise one eyebrow.
"Anything"? Huh? Or did you mean anyone? Because I will raise my hand and say that I personally have been obsessively and fearfully following this story since July and I think my concerns about Russia and Trump specifically, and about Democracy in an age of hacking in general, are unlikely to be resolved any time soon.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:12 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
What does this mean? What can be done, short of impeachment? And who says impeachment is not a possibility? But it would have to be done by Republicans, and they are only going to do it, if at all, in a way that saves face for the party. They certainly can't do it before he takes office.
Show me anything dedicated to following this past its click-life and I will raise one eyebrow.
"Anything"? Huh? Or did you mean anyone? Because I will raise my hand and say that I personally have been obsessively and fearfully following this story since July and I think my concerns about Russia and Trump specifically, and about Democracy in an age of hacking in general, are unlikely to be resolved any time soon.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:12 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
What can be done? Indeed. Emergency everything: meetings, press conferences, judicial orders. Nothing is being done; everyone has agreed to allow the effects of the hack - whatever they think they may be - to stand.
What can be done? A mandatory state-by-state audit of votes cast. If not now, when? Just because a story makes the MSM news cycle doesn't make it a scandal. There's no exposition and no action. Sadly.
"Anything" dedicated to following it being a news agency or a governmental body of any sort. "following it" meaning regular updates, not that it's on a desk awaiting review. Are there any more updates to the story? What outlet is producing them?
posted by petebest at 8:22 AM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
What can be done? A mandatory state-by-state audit of votes cast. If not now, when? Just because a story makes the MSM news cycle doesn't make it a scandal. There's no exposition and no action. Sadly.
"Anything" dedicated to following it being a news agency or a governmental body of any sort. "following it" meaning regular updates, not that it's on a desk awaiting review. Are there any more updates to the story? What outlet is producing them?
posted by petebest at 8:22 AM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
> If the Russian hacking was a scandal, something would be done about Trump.
This is not how the real world actually works.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:33 AM on January 2, 2017 [20 favorites]
This is not how the real world actually works.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:33 AM on January 2, 2017 [20 favorites]
Rick Perlstein, New Republic: He’s Making a List — Trump is more paranoid and dangerous than Nixon.
“In your own mind you have nothing to lose, so you take plenty of chances,” Nixon said. “It is then you understand, for the first time, that you have the advantage—because your competitors can’t risk what they have already.” That’s an insight that Trump put to good use during the Republican primaries, when he was willing to place high-stakes bets that his more experienced rivals were unwilling or unable to match.posted by tonycpsu at 8:56 AM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
But then you win, and your problems begin. “It’s a piece of cake until you get to the top,” Nixon confessed. “You find you can’t stop playing the game the way you’ve always played it, because it is a part of you and you need it as much as an arm and a leg. You continue to walk on the edge of the precipice, because over the years you have become fascinated by how close to the edge you can walk without losing your balance.”
What Nixon was describing sounds like nothing so much as a seasoned heroin addict chasing the next high: It takes bigger and bigger doses to get there, until too much is not nearly enough. And a little thing like being elected the leader of the free world isn’t nearly enough to jolt a man like Nixon or Trump into rehab.
This is not how the real world actually works.
I think we're in uncharted territory here, and any assumptions about how the world works are out the window.
posted by diogenes at 9:03 AM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
I think we're in uncharted territory here, and any assumptions about how the world works are out the window.
posted by diogenes at 9:03 AM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
> I think we're in uncharted territory here, and any assumptions about how the world works are out the window.
This is an overreaction. Trump's win confounded pollster models, but that doesn't change my belief that the sun will rise tomorrow, and it doesn't provide any support for the silly notion that a scandal can't possibly be a scandal because nothing is being done to correct it. Injustices happen all the time, and the injured parties are not always in a position to react as one might expect if one believes in some sort of conservation of energy principle where the outrage of the public is transformed into an attempt to correct the original injustice.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:10 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
This is an overreaction. Trump's win confounded pollster models, but that doesn't change my belief that the sun will rise tomorrow, and it doesn't provide any support for the silly notion that a scandal can't possibly be a scandal because nothing is being done to correct it. Injustices happen all the time, and the injured parties are not always in a position to react as one might expect if one believes in some sort of conservation of energy principle where the outrage of the public is transformed into an attempt to correct the original injustice.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:10 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
If the Russian hacking was a scandal, something would be done about Trump. The Russian hacking is an extended news cycle to fill time between tweets. In a few weeks it will harden into a footnote like Cheney's energy "task force". Show me anything dedicated to following this past its click-life and I will raise one eyebrow.
From the New Yorker article linked above:
"Trump doesn’t confine himself to reality—nothing new there. For once, though, he has been called on it, and there will be more repercussions. The confirmation prospects of Rex Tillerson... have been further complicated. Other nominees will also be affected: Democratic senators are sure to take their confirmation hearings as a chance to ask whether they agree with Trump’s statements about the C.I.A. and Russia. And, while that’s happening, the new Administration will find itself embroiled in hearings about the extent and impact of the Russian cyber attacks. Testifying at these hearings, senior intelligence and law-enforcement officials are likely to contradict Trump, or at least express views that diverge from his."
posted by diogenes at 9:12 AM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
From the New Yorker article linked above:
"Trump doesn’t confine himself to reality—nothing new there. For once, though, he has been called on it, and there will be more repercussions. The confirmation prospects of Rex Tillerson... have been further complicated. Other nominees will also be affected: Democratic senators are sure to take their confirmation hearings as a chance to ask whether they agree with Trump’s statements about the C.I.A. and Russia. And, while that’s happening, the new Administration will find itself embroiled in hearings about the extent and impact of the Russian cyber attacks. Testifying at these hearings, senior intelligence and law-enforcement officials are likely to contradict Trump, or at least express views that diverge from his."
posted by diogenes at 9:12 AM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
What can be done? Indeed. Emergency everything: meetings,
You don't believe there have been meetings about this? What would possibly make you think that?
press conferences
There have been press conferences, from Obama himself and even from Congressional Republicans?
Clinton has spoken publicly and allowed he camapign manager to publish calls for an investigation. She did her best to make it an election issue too, but there is a risk that if the issue is too politicized, regular Republicans will dismiss it on tribal grounds. We need some Republican leadershio here or 50% of the country will refuse to believe it has happened, and we can't afford that.
judicial orders.
By whom, ordering what? There are no court cases that I know of. Who should sue or prosecute whom? We can't prosecute or sue Russians, since they're not subject to our laws. Do you know of some evidence proving that Americans (ie, Trump's campaign) collaborated with them? If so, please release it. That's the bombshell we've been waiting for.
Nothing is being done; everyone has agreed to allow the effects of the hack - whatever they think they may be - to stand.
That's because the "effects of the hack" were that enough Americans voted for Trump to give him the presidency under our laws. How should we overturn that? Ignore our laws?
A mandatory state-by-state audit of votes cast. If not now, when?
But there has been no evidence of fraudulent or faked votes. Without that, it's hard to get audits done (as Jill Stein fiund out with her recount efforts) and it's also kind of pointless. Everyone agrees that Trump almost certainly really got the votes he was credited with. It's just that those voters may have been misled by his lies, about the contents of emails stolen by foreign spies... A scandal, but not a problem a problem with how the votes were counted.
Just because a story makes the MSM news cycle doesn't make it a scandal. There's no exposition and no action. Sadly.
This isn't reality TV here "Exposition"? "Action"? It's a scandal because a man lied his way into the presidency aided and abetted by a foreign government with whom he has a suspiciously close relationship.
"Anything" dedicated to following it being a news agency or a governmental body of any sort.
How about the CIA and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence? Do they count as governmental bodies? Hiw about the White House?
"following it" meaning regular updates, not that it's on a desk awaiting review. Are there any more updates to the story? What outlet is producing them?
There are many, from many outlets. Want some links by memail?
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:17 AM on January 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
You don't believe there have been meetings about this? What would possibly make you think that?
press conferences
There have been press conferences, from Obama himself and even from Congressional Republicans?
Clinton has spoken publicly and allowed he camapign manager to publish calls for an investigation. She did her best to make it an election issue too, but there is a risk that if the issue is too politicized, regular Republicans will dismiss it on tribal grounds. We need some Republican leadershio here or 50% of the country will refuse to believe it has happened, and we can't afford that.
judicial orders.
By whom, ordering what? There are no court cases that I know of. Who should sue or prosecute whom? We can't prosecute or sue Russians, since they're not subject to our laws. Do you know of some evidence proving that Americans (ie, Trump's campaign) collaborated with them? If so, please release it. That's the bombshell we've been waiting for.
Nothing is being done; everyone has agreed to allow the effects of the hack - whatever they think they may be - to stand.
That's because the "effects of the hack" were that enough Americans voted for Trump to give him the presidency under our laws. How should we overturn that? Ignore our laws?
A mandatory state-by-state audit of votes cast. If not now, when?
But there has been no evidence of fraudulent or faked votes. Without that, it's hard to get audits done (as Jill Stein fiund out with her recount efforts) and it's also kind of pointless. Everyone agrees that Trump almost certainly really got the votes he was credited with. It's just that those voters may have been misled by his lies, about the contents of emails stolen by foreign spies... A scandal, but not a problem a problem with how the votes were counted.
Just because a story makes the MSM news cycle doesn't make it a scandal. There's no exposition and no action. Sadly.
This isn't reality TV here "Exposition"? "Action"? It's a scandal because a man lied his way into the presidency aided and abetted by a foreign government with whom he has a suspiciously close relationship.
"Anything" dedicated to following it being a news agency or a governmental body of any sort.
How about the CIA and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence? Do they count as governmental bodies? Hiw about the White House?
"following it" meaning regular updates, not that it's on a desk awaiting review. Are there any more updates to the story? What outlet is producing them?
There are many, from many outlets. Want some links by memail?
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:17 AM on January 2, 2017 [12 favorites]
Here's how we prepare to be ungovernable in 2017.
posted by sciatrix at 9:18 AM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 9:18 AM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
Claiming mandate, GOP Congress lays plans to propel sweeping conservative agenda
Like "deficits" and "ethics", "bipartisanship" is a concept that only applies to Democratic rule as a weapon to halt liberal policy achievements. Republicans govern as an occupying force instituting reprisals against their enemies, liberals. While Democratic governance is inherently illegitimate.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:21 AM on January 2, 2017 [19 favorites]
Like "deficits" and "ethics", "bipartisanship" is a concept that only applies to Democratic rule as a weapon to halt liberal policy achievements. Republicans govern as an occupying force instituting reprisals against their enemies, liberals. While Democratic governance is inherently illegitimate.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:21 AM on January 2, 2017 [19 favorites]
Nothing says "outsidery populism" like the Heritage Foundation.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:28 AM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 9:28 AM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
Chicago murder rate is record setting - 4,331 shooting victims with 762 murders in 2016. If Mayor can't do it he must ask for Federal help!
This is a pretty sudden change of subject for him. The read for those ascribing to the Rational-Tweeter Theory Of Trump would seem to be an intentional steering of the conversation away from his promised "tuesday or wednesday" Russia intel, toward ginning up fear of "urban" crime, and putting forth early suggestions of federal imposition of power onto cities. Which would be a goddamned terrifying sign if accurate.
ETA: of course it's just as likely that he saw something about crime in chicago on fox news or whatever and tweeted about it without any rational thought. It's another classic lawful-evil-versus-chaotic-evil trump tweet thought experiment.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:43 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Chicago murder rate is record setting - 4,331 shooting victims with 762 murders in 2016. If Mayor can't do it he must ask for Federal help!
This is a pretty sudden change of subject for him. The read for those ascribing to the Rational-Tweeter Theory Of Trump would seem to be an intentional steering of the conversation away from his promised "tuesday or wednesday" Russia intel, toward ginning up fear of "urban" crime, and putting forth early suggestions of federal imposition of power onto cities. Which would be a goddamned terrifying sign if accurate.
ETA: of course it's just as likely that he saw something about crime in chicago on fox news or whatever and tweeted about it without any rational thought. It's another classic lawful-evil-versus-chaotic-evil trump tweet thought experiment.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:43 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is a pretty sudden change of subject for him.
I'm guessing there was a segment on it on Fox or CNN. Like the flag burning tweet earlier that appeared to be out of nowhere only to discover Fox & Friends had a segment on it minutes before his tweet.
posted by chris24 at 9:48 AM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm guessing there was a segment on it on Fox or CNN. Like the flag burning tweet earlier that appeared to be out of nowhere only to discover Fox & Friends had a segment on it minutes before his tweet.
posted by chris24 at 9:48 AM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
putting forth early suggestions of federal imposition of power onto cities. Which would be a goddamned terrifying sign if accurate.
They've already committed to reprisals against defiant cities, defunding "sanctuary cities". If we thought Trumpublicans would respect "states rights" or federalism arguments when deployed by liberal local officials rather than unrepentant Reconstructionist ones, we're about to see how shallow even that core tenet of conservatism really is.
No conservative argument is ever made in good faith, only as a means to regaining or expanding their power to enact a punitive and revanchist agenda. They'll flip on states rights in a heartbeat.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:58 AM on January 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
They've already committed to reprisals against defiant cities, defunding "sanctuary cities". If we thought Trumpublicans would respect "states rights" or federalism arguments when deployed by liberal local officials rather than unrepentant Reconstructionist ones, we're about to see how shallow even that core tenet of conservatism really is.
No conservative argument is ever made in good faith, only as a means to regaining or expanding their power to enact a punitive and revanchist agenda. They'll flip on states rights in a heartbeat.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:58 AM on January 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
What would be the best way to help support sanctuary cities? Are there places to help fund or back them up independently of the federal government?
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 10:15 AM on January 2, 2017
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 10:15 AM on January 2, 2017
Donate to liberal legal defense groups, the ACLU maybe. The courts will be the only hope.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:17 AM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:17 AM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
Fox News announces @seanhannity will present an in-person interview with WikiLeaks founder Julian Assangeposted by octobersurprise at 10:38 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
— Oliver Darcy @oliverdarcy
Maybe the Ecudorians will keep Hannity.
posted by zachlipton at 10:40 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:40 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe Fox will give Jules his own show.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:43 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 10:43 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
Various media outlets and pundits say that I thought I was going to lose the election. Wrong, it all came together in the last week and.....
I thought and felt I would win big, easily over the fabled 270 (306). When they cancelled fireworks, they knew, and so did I.
Yeah, I'm falling square on the side that this is just more meaningless tv-inspired ranting. Another gibbering howl-from-the-void that scrutiny of can only bring madness.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:48 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
What would be the best way to help support sanctuary cities? Are there places to help fund or back them up independently of the federal government?
It's important to remember what "defunding" really means, which is a very long distance from what "defunding" might reasonably mean. Without substantial and possibly filibuster-able changes* to legislation, it won't mean that cities lose Medicaid or TANF dollars, because those aren't contingent on cooperating with federal immigration enforcement efforts. Which means that they can't just be made to be by executive fiat. Even changing the legislation to make them conditional might not fly, given how tenuous the connection between Medicaid and immigration enforcement is. Doubly so in district and circuit courts with the existing ruling about not being able to force Medicaid extensions on states that don't want it.
So far, what "defunding" seems to mean is that sanctuary cities might -- if their inevitable suits are unsuccessful -- lose access to *some* but not all federal Department of Justice grants for their own law enforcement agencies. And the NYPD or whoever losing federal money to subsidize oppressing brown people or buying stuff to play soldier-but-with-no-fire-discipline is just not something we should be sad about.
*I dunno if it could be done through reconciliation or not. Ask Sarah Binder or Steve Smith.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:51 AM on January 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
It's important to remember what "defunding" really means, which is a very long distance from what "defunding" might reasonably mean. Without substantial and possibly filibuster-able changes* to legislation, it won't mean that cities lose Medicaid or TANF dollars, because those aren't contingent on cooperating with federal immigration enforcement efforts. Which means that they can't just be made to be by executive fiat. Even changing the legislation to make them conditional might not fly, given how tenuous the connection between Medicaid and immigration enforcement is. Doubly so in district and circuit courts with the existing ruling about not being able to force Medicaid extensions on states that don't want it.
So far, what "defunding" seems to mean is that sanctuary cities might -- if their inevitable suits are unsuccessful -- lose access to *some* but not all federal Department of Justice grants for their own law enforcement agencies. And the NYPD or whoever losing federal money to subsidize oppressing brown people or buying stuff to play soldier-but-with-no-fire-discipline is just not something we should be sad about.
*I dunno if it could be done through reconciliation or not. Ask Sarah Binder or Steve Smith.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:51 AM on January 2, 2017 [13 favorites]
Claiming mandate, GOP Congress lays plans to propel sweeping conservative agenda
Rightfully or not, the only thing that will keep me from collapsing into a ball and weeping is my anger at the #neverClinton assholes who got us into this mess.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 10:56 AM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
Rightfully or not, the only thing that will keep me from collapsing into a ball and weeping is my anger at the #neverClinton assholes who got us into this mess.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 10:56 AM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
So how is the Tea Party Caucus going to justify slashing the top marginal tax rate and thus exploding the deficit to obscene proportions? Or will it simply be a case of "Fuck you, that's my name."
posted by Justinian at 11:01 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:01 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
(Oh, since budget procedures can be kind of opaque it should be noted that Democrats cannot filibuster any slashing of top tax rates so long as they sunset within 10 years and/or are offset by big spending cuts.)
posted by Justinian at 11:02 AM on January 2, 2017
posted by Justinian at 11:02 AM on January 2, 2017
So how is the Tea Party Caucus going to justify slashing the top marginal tax rate and thus exploding the deficit to obscene proportions? Or will it simply be a case of "Fuck you, that's my name."
You know that quote about how Nazis didn't make horrible false claims about the Jews in order to communicate reality, but rather to justify what they planned to do? You know that's why they pretend slashing taxes leads to economic growth, right?
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:08 AM on January 2, 2017 [26 favorites]
You know that quote about how Nazis didn't make horrible false claims about the Jews in order to communicate reality, but rather to justify what they planned to do? You know that's why they pretend slashing taxes leads to economic growth, right?
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:08 AM on January 2, 2017 [26 favorites]
Breaking News: Alleged Embodiment of Zeitgeist Still Very Unpopular
So why are so many of us spending so much time flagellating ourselves for our failure to understand the Trump voter? Why are we describing Trump voters as the quintessential Americans, the ones Democrats and the "liberal media" shun at their peril? Trump is widely disliked. Even presidential election winners like Bill Clinton in 1992 and George W. Bush in 2000 who failed to win outright popular-vote majorities were regarded positively by voters in the immediate aftermath of tough campaigns. The country rallied around them. The country isn't rallying around Trump. So why not portray him as wrong-footed from the start, a man who'll struggle to win popular consent for his actions and his policies?posted by tonycpsu at 11:29 AM on January 2, 2017 [44 favorites]
That's how the political world would be talking about Hillary Clinton right now if she'd won -- even if, unlike Trump, she'd won both the popular and the electoral vote. We'd be told that she has to renege on many of her promises, reach out to her enemies, maybe even give Trump himself a Cabinet position. So why aren't we hearing anything like that about Trump now?
Jennifer Rubin, WaPo: Trump’s inability to tolerate critics may be his biggest problem
As self-evident as it may be, Trump operates in a world in which someone’s worth (whether it is Schumer or Ryan or Russian President Vladimir Putin) is a direct reflection of whether he is saying nice things about Trump. This may be one reason he relies so heavily on his children; they know better than to insult him or to challenge him in ways that prompt him to lash out. (They are, in a word, enablers.)
The natural tendency is to think: Why, that can’t be! That’s grade school stuff. How can any adult, let alone the president, operate like that? But, of course, it can be, and Trump has consistently operated that way, at least until now. For a textbook narcissist, there is no objective, ideology, aim or vision other than satisfaction of his own ego. It makes him a sitting duck for flatters — and may make him a very isolated president, very quickly.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:31 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
As self-evident as it may be, Trump operates in a world in which someone’s worth (whether it is Schumer or Ryan or Russian President Vladimir Putin) is a direct reflection of whether he is saying nice things about Trump. This may be one reason he relies so heavily on his children; they know better than to insult him or to challenge him in ways that prompt him to lash out. (They are, in a word, enablers.)
The natural tendency is to think: Why, that can’t be! That’s grade school stuff. How can any adult, let alone the president, operate like that? But, of course, it can be, and Trump has consistently operated that way, at least until now. For a textbook narcissist, there is no objective, ideology, aim or vision other than satisfaction of his own ego. It makes him a sitting duck for flatters — and may make him a very isolated president, very quickly.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:31 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
So why aren't we hearing anything like that about Trump now?
Bipartisanship is a requirement that only applies to Democrats. Republicans always have a mandate, no matter the slimness of their majorities or the legitimacy of their victory.
Being a Republican mean never having to compromise, or even entertain the media suggesting that maybe reaching out to the 52% of losers who voted for the other candidate should be a concern.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:49 AM on January 2, 2017 [21 favorites]
Bipartisanship is a requirement that only applies to Democrats. Republicans always have a mandate, no matter the slimness of their majorities or the legitimacy of their victory.
Being a Republican mean never having to compromise, or even entertain the media suggesting that maybe reaching out to the 52% of losers who voted for the other candidate should be a concern.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:49 AM on January 2, 2017 [21 favorites]
I'm done with how often my city comes up with white conservative folk as a synonym for violence, corruption, and all sorts of ills.
Waves hi from Metro Detroit.
More anecdotes about the ACA-bashing.
I was even more depressed after awaking today to see people on twitter crowing about the trumpublicans' imminent plans to kill it (which I rely on).
So I posted a bit about my situation - how I've worked for nonprofits/ public ed, but in recent years have not had employer health bennies. But I DO pay taxes. Yet a worthless, orange slug who doesn't support nonprofits and doesn't pay taxes is going to take this one small help away.
And I didn't say this, but who are all these fucking idiots that think they were only paying $100/mo. premiums before, and that it will be $100 again. Jesus Christ on a crutch. (That you won't be able to afford when the ACA disappears.)
I got one nutjob reply, and another even worse, an (R) who really thinks this: "Its going to be replaced you know, you're not just going to have no insurance."
Reminds me of my college roommate, another Well-Off pulling the wool over her own eyes. The day after the election I was agonizing about this on FB, and she told me primly I should "wait to see what our president-elect did."
This from someone who doesn't even have to work, she's upper middle class on just the hubs' income. Completely isolated from what life's like for the other, say 65%(?). (Like another old (ex-)friend who once shared a vid of How Black People Should Behave During Traffic Stops and Nothing Bad Will Happen.)
posted by NorthernLite at 12:13 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
Waves hi from Metro Detroit.
More anecdotes about the ACA-bashing.
I was even more depressed after awaking today to see people on twitter crowing about the trumpublicans' imminent plans to kill it (which I rely on).
So I posted a bit about my situation - how I've worked for nonprofits/ public ed, but in recent years have not had employer health bennies. But I DO pay taxes. Yet a worthless, orange slug who doesn't support nonprofits and doesn't pay taxes is going to take this one small help away.
And I didn't say this, but who are all these fucking idiots that think they were only paying $100/mo. premiums before, and that it will be $100 again. Jesus Christ on a crutch. (That you won't be able to afford when the ACA disappears.)
I got one nutjob reply, and another even worse, an (R) who really thinks this: "Its going to be replaced you know, you're not just going to have no insurance."
Reminds me of my college roommate, another Well-Off pulling the wool over her own eyes. The day after the election I was agonizing about this on FB, and she told me primly I should "wait to see what our president-elect did."
This from someone who doesn't even have to work, she's upper middle class on just the hubs' income. Completely isolated from what life's like for the other, say 65%(?). (Like another old (ex-)friend who once shared a vid of How Black People Should Behave During Traffic Stops and Nothing Bad Will Happen.)
posted by NorthernLite at 12:13 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
I suppose the emotional impact of having an area with 25 million people turn to ash from nuclear fire
The bombs NK has are not capable of doing that much damage, although it would be horrific enough if they kill 50,000 to 100,000 people, a more likely number. And nobody is suggesting that that is OK, no matter what Koreans look like (really?). What I am suggesting is that it would be a very suicidally stupid thing for NK to do, which unfortunately in this day doesn't mean they won't be smart enough to not do it.
The key thing is that NK has gotten nukes, small primitive ones but yes they can seriously ruin your day if someone brings them to you by panel truck or WWII era bomber, and now they're crowing about delivery systems but they do not have a delivery system that can deliver their nukes. This is all about ego (making it a rather Trump-like display, actually) but the two things do not add up, and without miniaturized nukes the missiles are really a completely worthless waste of resources even if they work.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:39 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
The bombs NK has are not capable of doing that much damage, although it would be horrific enough if they kill 50,000 to 100,000 people, a more likely number. And nobody is suggesting that that is OK, no matter what Koreans look like (really?). What I am suggesting is that it would be a very suicidally stupid thing for NK to do, which unfortunately in this day doesn't mean they won't be smart enough to not do it.
The key thing is that NK has gotten nukes, small primitive ones but yes they can seriously ruin your day if someone brings them to you by panel truck or WWII era bomber, and now they're crowing about delivery systems but they do not have a delivery system that can deliver their nukes. This is all about ego (making it a rather Trump-like display, actually) but the two things do not add up, and without miniaturized nukes the missiles are really a completely worthless waste of resources even if they work.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:39 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
One of the things I've seen in post-election reflections among journalists is the idea that rural America feels ignored by the national media, and to a certain extent it's true. I worry that the method the media takes to address this will be to give a platform for wingnut Limbaugh fans in some misguided attempt at balance, but what I'd really love to see is for the media to give them exactly what they ask for in a way that they don't expect: a series of long form pieces coming out weekly as a collaboration between different papers and other national news outlets that focus on individual rural, small town and small city areas by doing a deep dive into their biggest local issues and how the local, state and federal government has attempted to address those issues - put a face on the victims of red state government fuckery, and give it a national platform.
It's one thing to generalize about this stuff and say "Republican government puts business interests over the interests of the people and divides the working class by inflaming racial tensions", and that's true, but it doesn't connect. If you get hyperlocal and show the effects in a personalized way, connecting the dots directly between problems, policies and political players at this granular level and do it in a persistent, focused, thorough way rather than the random isolated "how the other half lives" story, that could get some real traction. Put the local level political and economic players on blast and give a national spotlight to the problems they are failing to solve and the solutions presented by their opponents, and you'll not only be showing the nationwide patterns of this kind of governing but you'll be educating the constituencies of these areas in a way that their local media (if they even have any) is not equipped to do. Fill the void left by failing, underfunded and/or Republican-owned local news by doing its job for it and taking it national. Basically it's like a serious and more in-depth version of Colbert's old "Better Know a District".
posted by jason_steakums at 12:46 PM on January 2, 2017 [47 favorites]
It's one thing to generalize about this stuff and say "Republican government puts business interests over the interests of the people and divides the working class by inflaming racial tensions", and that's true, but it doesn't connect. If you get hyperlocal and show the effects in a personalized way, connecting the dots directly between problems, policies and political players at this granular level and do it in a persistent, focused, thorough way rather than the random isolated "how the other half lives" story, that could get some real traction. Put the local level political and economic players on blast and give a national spotlight to the problems they are failing to solve and the solutions presented by their opponents, and you'll not only be showing the nationwide patterns of this kind of governing but you'll be educating the constituencies of these areas in a way that their local media (if they even have any) is not equipped to do. Fill the void left by failing, underfunded and/or Republican-owned local news by doing its job for it and taking it national. Basically it's like a serious and more in-depth version of Colbert's old "Better Know a District".
posted by jason_steakums at 12:46 PM on January 2, 2017 [47 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed. I'm not sure how "no, but stay with me, let's take it as a given that someone just happens to be dressed as a Klansman, but!" got past the starting line of thought-experiments-worth-expecting-people-to-pursue, but it's absolutely not gonna get anywhere. Please drop it pronto and think harder about taking that sort of tack in the future.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [27 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [27 favorites]
Re:"Russian hacking scandal"
I'm saying that true to form under the Dubz administration, and contrary to what is needed - in fact, what has been in painfully sharp relief about the mainstream news since at least the conventions - the press "scandal" will produce nothing. Nothing but airtime filler.
It's a scandal in the same way that missing Malaysian flight 370 is a scandal. Lots of scowly talking heads repeat the agreed-upon story while nothing happens. It's a "surely this" which we agree means "not even this".
At the highest level of the story, Russian-backed hackers stole DNC emails and gave them to Wikileaks for drip-feeding to pollute the news cycle against Clinton. They also broke into multiple state voter registration systems, and ostensibly the RNC although nothing further came of those break-ins as far as we know. What else? Did they remove active voters? Did they change votes? Did Manafort request it?
The FBI was aware of what we now know and did not publish this information even after Harry Reid and the chair of the House Intelligence committee publicly called for it well before the vote. We agree this meets the same standards as the actual Watergate scandal in that: there was a break in of the DNC and the details were kept quiet to allow a Republican administration to move forward.
You don't believe there have been meetings about this?
I agree there were. How'd those go? Besides a tepid agreement to meet again, did anything else happen? Ostensibly we threw out 30 Russian spies, so good work there I guess. Are more meetings planned? By whom, and when? After Jan 20th, surely.
We need some Republican leadershio here or 50% of the country will refuse to believe it has happened
Which is exactly what we're getting and why I say it's not really a scandal (though it should be).
"judicial orders."
By whom, ordering what?
Who stopped the Florida recount in 2000? Who could have held up the electoral college from voting? Who can stop the inauguration? Unless you're suggesting that either nothing is to be gained from further investigating the Russian election hacking, or that you prefer another arm of our government should take action (a military action? Then name the system!), the seemingly rational next step is a judicial stay of one of these Constitutional gates to swearing in Trump.
That's because the "effects of the hack" were that enough Americans voted for Trump to give him the presidency under our laws.
If that's the case then we're done with it- the rest of the 'scandal' is to condemn the Russians, or Trump, or some dipshit Arizona Congressperson for loving the whole thing. (And we are done with it, by all appearances.). "Effects of the hack" meaning illegally stricken voter registrations, a change of the vote tally, or direct involvement from the Trump team - outside of his public plea to the Russians to do what they did, of course.
But there has been no evidence of fraudulent or faked votes. Without that, it's hard to get audits done
There's evidence the Russians accessed several state voter registrations, does that count? If not, we should ask that Congress write a law saying when the Russians break into our voting systems that that's totally a crime which we should look into. With an audit. And as for this time, well played Russia, you didn't break any . . . laws? Conventions? Whatever would get us to examine the vote real good like. Crafty devils, ain't they.
This isn't reality TV here "Exposition"? "Action"? It's a scandal because a man lied his way into the presidency
He's President now? I thought John Roberts had to mumble some half-remembered most-important-oath-of-office-we-have and make him repeat it before that. It would seem like if any action on this were to happen, there's a little over two weeks in which it can. The CIA, ODNI, and the White House aren't known for moving that fast, not to mention they won't.
"Are there any more updates to the story? What outlet is producing them?"
There are many, from many outlets. Want some links by memail?
If you've got further information on this from what was released last week, sure, I'd love to see that. I think we all would. If you've got links to bog-standard waffling about "some say" and "[X] leaders issued a statement . . . " etc, then no. Just for fun, let me scan the NYT, CNN, and, what the hey WaPo for new kernels of scandalous intrigue:
Mmmmmmnnnope. The only story on the front of those that's even related is the NYT's "Trump knows something we don't know" which is not an update. It's bullshit. And it's all we're going to get, maybe, until it can't possibly matter.
posted by petebest at 1:07 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm saying that true to form under the Dubz administration, and contrary to what is needed - in fact, what has been in painfully sharp relief about the mainstream news since at least the conventions - the press "scandal" will produce nothing. Nothing but airtime filler.
It's a scandal in the same way that missing Malaysian flight 370 is a scandal. Lots of scowly talking heads repeat the agreed-upon story while nothing happens. It's a "surely this" which we agree means "not even this".
At the highest level of the story, Russian-backed hackers stole DNC emails and gave them to Wikileaks for drip-feeding to pollute the news cycle against Clinton. They also broke into multiple state voter registration systems, and ostensibly the RNC although nothing further came of those break-ins as far as we know. What else? Did they remove active voters? Did they change votes? Did Manafort request it?
The FBI was aware of what we now know and did not publish this information even after Harry Reid and the chair of the House Intelligence committee publicly called for it well before the vote. We agree this meets the same standards as the actual Watergate scandal in that: there was a break in of the DNC and the details were kept quiet to allow a Republican administration to move forward.
You don't believe there have been meetings about this?
I agree there were. How'd those go? Besides a tepid agreement to meet again, did anything else happen? Ostensibly we threw out 30 Russian spies, so good work there I guess. Are more meetings planned? By whom, and when? After Jan 20th, surely.
We need some Republican leadershio here or 50% of the country will refuse to believe it has happened
Which is exactly what we're getting and why I say it's not really a scandal (though it should be).
"judicial orders."
By whom, ordering what?
Who stopped the Florida recount in 2000? Who could have held up the electoral college from voting? Who can stop the inauguration? Unless you're suggesting that either nothing is to be gained from further investigating the Russian election hacking, or that you prefer another arm of our government should take action (a military action? Then name the system!), the seemingly rational next step is a judicial stay of one of these Constitutional gates to swearing in Trump.
That's because the "effects of the hack" were that enough Americans voted for Trump to give him the presidency under our laws.
If that's the case then we're done with it- the rest of the 'scandal' is to condemn the Russians, or Trump, or some dipshit Arizona Congressperson for loving the whole thing. (And we are done with it, by all appearances.). "Effects of the hack" meaning illegally stricken voter registrations, a change of the vote tally, or direct involvement from the Trump team - outside of his public plea to the Russians to do what they did, of course.
But there has been no evidence of fraudulent or faked votes. Without that, it's hard to get audits done
There's evidence the Russians accessed several state voter registrations, does that count? If not, we should ask that Congress write a law saying when the Russians break into our voting systems that that's totally a crime which we should look into. With an audit. And as for this time, well played Russia, you didn't break any . . . laws? Conventions? Whatever would get us to examine the vote real good like. Crafty devils, ain't they.
This isn't reality TV here "Exposition"? "Action"? It's a scandal because a man lied his way into the presidency
He's President now? I thought John Roberts had to mumble some half-remembered most-important-oath-of-office-we-have and make him repeat it before that. It would seem like if any action on this were to happen, there's a little over two weeks in which it can. The CIA, ODNI, and the White House aren't known for moving that fast, not to mention they won't.
"Are there any more updates to the story? What outlet is producing them?"
There are many, from many outlets. Want some links by memail?
If you've got further information on this from what was released last week, sure, I'd love to see that. I think we all would. If you've got links to bog-standard waffling about "some say" and "[X] leaders issued a statement . . . " etc, then no. Just for fun, let me scan the NYT, CNN, and, what the hey WaPo for new kernels of scandalous intrigue:
Mmmmmmnnnope. The only story on the front of those that's even related is the NYT's "Trump knows something we don't know" which is not an update. It's bullshit. And it's all we're going to get, maybe, until it can't possibly matter.
posted by petebest at 1:07 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
What I am suggesting is that it would be a very suicidally stupid thing for NK to do, which unfortunately in this day doesn't mean they won't be smart enough to not do it.
It's weird how "aggressive adversaries" somehow implies "stupid" to you, when the NK regime has been playing this brinksmanship game very effectively since the day it was created. While I do not support their actions at all, from my viewpoint they look a lot more rational than US policy that does a 180 every time presidential administrations change.
The key thing is that NK has gotten nukes, small primitive ones but yes they can seriously ruin your day if someone brings them to you by panel truck or WWII era bomber, and now they're crowing about delivery systems but they do not have a delivery system that can deliver their nukes.
I hear a version of this in the US media every time NK reaches a milestone in their nuclear program: ominous handwringing about what they're doing while at the same time diminishing it as "primitive" or tests as "failures". I saw this as they moved from producing nuclear material, to testing a fission bomb, to testing a medium range missile, to testing a fusion bomb, and so forth. This rhetoric makes it easy to miss that they are making concrete progress and that rational international policy would seek to negotiate an end to the program.
qcubed: Seoul metro has over 25 million people, and regardless of whether large parts of it turn to ash from a nuclear detonation or artillery strikes, the emotional impact is not something to just say, "it's not so bad compared to x".
Incidentally, I recall that this is much like the attitude that American military leaders had in the early nuclear age. Having led strategic bombing raids using conventional explosives and leveling and burning entire cities, they did not see a difference in practical impact aside from sending a few planes to do what once required many over a series of days. Perhaps the people who came later and assigned a unique emotional impact to nuclear weaponry have forgotten the brutality of WW2 strategic bombing.
posted by indubitable at 1:14 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's weird how "aggressive adversaries" somehow implies "stupid" to you, when the NK regime has been playing this brinksmanship game very effectively since the day it was created. While I do not support their actions at all, from my viewpoint they look a lot more rational than US policy that does a 180 every time presidential administrations change.
The key thing is that NK has gotten nukes, small primitive ones but yes they can seriously ruin your day if someone brings them to you by panel truck or WWII era bomber, and now they're crowing about delivery systems but they do not have a delivery system that can deliver their nukes.
I hear a version of this in the US media every time NK reaches a milestone in their nuclear program: ominous handwringing about what they're doing while at the same time diminishing it as "primitive" or tests as "failures". I saw this as they moved from producing nuclear material, to testing a fission bomb, to testing a medium range missile, to testing a fusion bomb, and so forth. This rhetoric makes it easy to miss that they are making concrete progress and that rational international policy would seek to negotiate an end to the program.
qcubed: Seoul metro has over 25 million people, and regardless of whether large parts of it turn to ash from a nuclear detonation or artillery strikes, the emotional impact is not something to just say, "it's not so bad compared to x".
Incidentally, I recall that this is much like the attitude that American military leaders had in the early nuclear age. Having led strategic bombing raids using conventional explosives and leveling and burning entire cities, they did not see a difference in practical impact aside from sending a few planes to do what once required many over a series of days. Perhaps the people who came later and assigned a unique emotional impact to nuclear weaponry have forgotten the brutality of WW2 strategic bombing.
posted by indubitable at 1:14 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Re:"Russian hacking scandal"
And we are done with it, by all appearances.
Isn't that ignoring the Senate investigation and the upcoming report ordered by Obama?
You might not have high hopes for those, but they are certainly something more than "bog-standard waffling."
posted by diogenes at 1:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
And we are done with it, by all appearances.
Isn't that ignoring the Senate investigation and the upcoming report ordered by Obama?
You might not have high hopes for those, but they are certainly something more than "bog-standard waffling."
posted by diogenes at 1:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
There's an interesting discussion of the sanctions here, by someone who is alarmed enough by Russia's general foreign policy posture to maintain a blog devoted to the subject. He argues that the sanctions will cause the GRU serious pain, but don't go far enough.
posted by Coventry at 1:17 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 1:17 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
And as for this time, well played Russia, you didn't break any . . . laws? Conventions? Whatever would get us to examine the vote real good like. Crafty devils, ain't they.
Little fishies, all gone missing,
And it’s trouble for the Law
When they try to haul the Shark in.
There’s a problem. No one saw.
He'll just say: "I don’t remember."
And they cannot make him sing.
And the Shark is not a shark, dear
If you cannot prove a thing.
- Bertolt Brecht
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:24 PM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
Little fishies, all gone missing,
And it’s trouble for the Law
When they try to haul the Shark in.
There’s a problem. No one saw.
He'll just say: "I don’t remember."
And they cannot make him sing.
And the Shark is not a shark, dear
If you cannot prove a thing.
- Bertolt Brecht
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:24 PM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
. . . Senate investigation . . . report ordered by Obama . . . they are certainly something more than "bog-standard waffling."
Are they? :) Sure, that's nice but again, if there's anything else and Trump is President it's essentially academic. Maybe something will change then but not the thing that most needs to change.
posted by petebest at 1:25 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are they? :) Sure, that's nice but again, if there's anything else and Trump is President it's essentially academic. Maybe something will change then but not the thing that most needs to change.
posted by petebest at 1:25 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm not critiquing the factual basis of your argument here. I'm critiquing the cavalier way you dismissed even the partial destruction of a city of people who aren't American.
Well before I mentioned Seoul I casually mentioned that those panel truck delivered bombs might be used to "poke a hole" in Los Angeles or New York City, which are definitely American cities, and that those cities would most likely go on routing around the problem while we prepared to respond with some real nuclear weapons. So I think you are reading an intent that never was in there.
It is kind of horrific to casually dismiss the murder of 100,000 people, but it's also important to realize that we are led by people, that the controls to these weapons are in the hands of people who do exactly that all the time. Curtis LeMay is on record as saying that it would be a mighty fine result if we came out of the war he spent most of his career trying to start losing only fifty million of our own citizens.
The reason I know so much about nuclear weapons is that I spent my childhood in terror that I would be killed by them, and when the information about how they work became public (THANKS HOWARD MORLAND) I was both fascinated and appalled. And it was quite a relief to realize after Gorbachev that there really wasn't that much interest on either side in really launching the missiles. And I'm not feeling as relieved right now as I was ten years ago, so yes, if people who casually coin a word like "megadeaths" bother you, please do be bothered by it. But I am not your problem.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:40 PM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Well before I mentioned Seoul I casually mentioned that those panel truck delivered bombs might be used to "poke a hole" in Los Angeles or New York City, which are definitely American cities, and that those cities would most likely go on routing around the problem while we prepared to respond with some real nuclear weapons. So I think you are reading an intent that never was in there.
It is kind of horrific to casually dismiss the murder of 100,000 people, but it's also important to realize that we are led by people, that the controls to these weapons are in the hands of people who do exactly that all the time. Curtis LeMay is on record as saying that it would be a mighty fine result if we came out of the war he spent most of his career trying to start losing only fifty million of our own citizens.
The reason I know so much about nuclear weapons is that I spent my childhood in terror that I would be killed by them, and when the information about how they work became public (THANKS HOWARD MORLAND) I was both fascinated and appalled. And it was quite a relief to realize after Gorbachev that there really wasn't that much interest on either side in really launching the missiles. And I'm not feeling as relieved right now as I was ten years ago, so yes, if people who casually coin a word like "megadeaths" bother you, please do be bothered by it. But I am not your problem.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:40 PM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
It is kind of horrific to casually dismiss the murder of 100,000 people, but
This is the kind of phrase that probably should never be followed with a ", but".
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:48 PM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
This is the kind of phrase that probably should never be followed with a ", but".
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:48 PM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
Curtis LeMay is on record as saying that it would be a mighty fine result if we came out of the war he spent most of his career trying to start losing only fifty million of our own citizens.
Hair mussed, et cetera
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:53 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hair mussed, et cetera
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:53 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Gentleman! You can't fight in here! This is the war thread!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [28 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [28 favorites]
to testing a fusion bomb
NK has not tested a fusion bomb, and they are nowhere near being able to. What they did is successfully boost a Fat Man or even more likely and less usefully Little Boy style bomb with an injection of tritium, which is the first step toward miniaturization but there are a lot more steps which I am quite confident are beyond their immediate capability.
What NK is quite good at doing is doing small things and making them look larger than they really are at a casual analysis.
By "hydrogen bomb" (which was the first phrase NK used for that test) the usual meaning is a Teller-Ulam staged design which uses a highly boosted fission primary to ignite a separate fusion fueled secondary stage. Mike, the first thermonuclear device ignited by the US, used a Fat Man style bomb as the trigger but the resulting design was so large it could not possibly be delivered. (It also used cryogenic liquid deuterium as fusion fuel, which was a bit of an obstacle to deployment too).
In practice, for NK to get the ability to seriously threaten the US, they would have to solve at least five problems I am aware of which are seriously beyond their pay grade as a nation -- the first of which, reducing the size of the fission primary from 6 feet diameter / 10K pounds to about the size of a basketball -- is one of the most difficult things ever accomplished by nuclear weapons designers. This would require that they have an abundant source of tritium (they don't). Tritium has a half life of only 12 years so boosted bombs need constant maintenance or they will "fizzle" (actual term of art in the trade) and not make their design yield.
In order to make a modern dry Teller-Ulam hydrogen bomb they would also need the resources to isotope separate lithium-6 and deuterium (they don't have this), and a lot of design know-how that can only be acquired through testing (which they aren't in a position to do). The bottom line is that they do not have a bomb that can be delivered with anything short of a B52 and which would yes do horrible damage if it could be used but which would not cripple our society or even the city it was dropped on if it was used. And they are not going to get a meaningfully more dangerous bomb soon.
So, getting back to the missile test that started this exchange, what are they planning to deliver with it? They do not have anything worth actually putting in the payload bay and they aren't going to any time soon. But they say "hydrogen bomb" and "intercontinental missile" and people who don't know the details are successfully fooled into thinking they are much more dangerous than they really are.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:57 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
NK has not tested a fusion bomb, and they are nowhere near being able to. What they did is successfully boost a Fat Man or even more likely and less usefully Little Boy style bomb with an injection of tritium, which is the first step toward miniaturization but there are a lot more steps which I am quite confident are beyond their immediate capability.
What NK is quite good at doing is doing small things and making them look larger than they really are at a casual analysis.
By "hydrogen bomb" (which was the first phrase NK used for that test) the usual meaning is a Teller-Ulam staged design which uses a highly boosted fission primary to ignite a separate fusion fueled secondary stage. Mike, the first thermonuclear device ignited by the US, used a Fat Man style bomb as the trigger but the resulting design was so large it could not possibly be delivered. (It also used cryogenic liquid deuterium as fusion fuel, which was a bit of an obstacle to deployment too).
In practice, for NK to get the ability to seriously threaten the US, they would have to solve at least five problems I am aware of which are seriously beyond their pay grade as a nation -- the first of which, reducing the size of the fission primary from 6 feet diameter / 10K pounds to about the size of a basketball -- is one of the most difficult things ever accomplished by nuclear weapons designers. This would require that they have an abundant source of tritium (they don't). Tritium has a half life of only 12 years so boosted bombs need constant maintenance or they will "fizzle" (actual term of art in the trade) and not make their design yield.
In order to make a modern dry Teller-Ulam hydrogen bomb they would also need the resources to isotope separate lithium-6 and deuterium (they don't have this), and a lot of design know-how that can only be acquired through testing (which they aren't in a position to do). The bottom line is that they do not have a bomb that can be delivered with anything short of a B52 and which would yes do horrible damage if it could be used but which would not cripple our society or even the city it was dropped on if it was used. And they are not going to get a meaningfully more dangerous bomb soon.
So, getting back to the missile test that started this exchange, what are they planning to deliver with it? They do not have anything worth actually putting in the payload bay and they aren't going to any time soon. But they say "hydrogen bomb" and "intercontinental missile" and people who don't know the details are successfully fooled into thinking they are much more dangerous than they really are.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:57 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
This is the kind of phrase that probably should never be followed with a ", but".
Unfortunately, what should be and what are are two very different things.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:59 PM on January 2, 2017
Unfortunately, what should be and what are are two very different things.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:59 PM on January 2, 2017
I'm done with how often my city comes up with white conservative folk as a synonym for violence, corruption, and all sorts of ills. It's become a dogwhistle that seemingly represents Black crime, Democratic governance, and liberal hell.
We in Baltimore are appreciating the short break. But I'm sure we'll be pressed back into service shortly.
posted by CommonSense at 2:01 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
We in Baltimore are appreciating the short break. But I'm sure we'll be pressed back into service shortly.
posted by CommonSense at 2:01 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Richard Spencer, his parents, and Whitefish (antifascistnews.net)
Background and discussion of local reaction to the alt right march planned to take place in Whitefish, Montana later this month.
posted by kingless at 2:04 PM on January 2, 2017
Background and discussion of local reaction to the alt right march planned to take place in Whitefish, Montana later this month.
posted by kingless at 2:04 PM on January 2, 2017
Black crime, Democratic governance, and liberal hell.
If only I could work out the 'Democrats let the Black people off the leash and look what happened' subtext in that messaging. Well, I say subtext.
posted by jaduncan at 2:04 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
If only I could work out the 'Democrats let the Black people off the leash and look what happened' subtext in that messaging. Well, I say subtext.
posted by jaduncan at 2:04 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
If only I could work out the 'Democrats let the Black people off the leash and look what happened' subtext in that messaging. Well, I say subtext.
Yup, the dogwhistle is pretty damn loud when it comes to Republican "concern" about Chicago.
posted by diogenes at 2:13 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yup, the dogwhistle is pretty damn loud when it comes to Republican "concern" about Chicago.
posted by diogenes at 2:13 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
I shudder to consider what Trump has in mind for "federal help."
posted by diogenes at 2:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by diogenes at 2:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
We in Baltimore are appreciating the short break. But I'm sure we'll be pressed back into service shortly.
Detroit elected a white mayor, so the GOP should be oddly quiet about what a hellhole it is for a couple more years too.
posted by Etrigan at 2:20 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Detroit elected a white mayor, so the GOP should be oddly quiet about what a hellhole it is for a couple more years too.
posted by Etrigan at 2:20 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
...they say "hydrogen bomb" and "intercontinental missile" and people who don't know the details are successfully fooled into thinking they are much more dangerous than they really are.
It helps that the Western journalists and military analysts who could debunk that perception benefit from its ongoing prevalence.
posted by Coventry at 2:26 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
It helps that the Western journalists and military analysts who could debunk that perception benefit from its ongoing prevalence.
posted by Coventry at 2:26 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Somewhat ironically, Trump's attacking Chicago is probably the best thing that could happen to Mayor Emmanuel's prospects for reelection. He's... not popular at the moment, but we certainly hate him less than we do Trump.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:32 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:32 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
4 things that were supposed to happen by 2017 because Obama was reelected
your mistake is thinking of these things as testable predictions rather than partisan signalling.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:35 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
your mistake is thinking of these things as testable predictions rather than partisan signalling.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:35 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
I shudder to consider what Trump has in mind for "federal help."
In all seriousness, part of me wonders if it's a Flint-style city manager who is also in charge of all of the local federal agencies. Making both local law enforcement and DEA/FBI/whatnot able to work together to achieve a great outcome and deport everyone.
posted by jaduncan at 3:12 PM on January 2, 2017
In all seriousness, part of me wonders if it's a Flint-style city manager who is also in charge of all of the local federal agencies. Making both local law enforcement and DEA/FBI/whatnot able to work together to achieve a great outcome and deport everyone.
posted by jaduncan at 3:12 PM on January 2, 2017
Trump’s Press Secretary Begs The American People To Stop Mocking Donald Trump
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
North Korea just stated that it is in the final stages of developing a nuclear weapon capable of reaching parts of the U.S. It won't happen!
He can't go a fucking week without mentioning nukes. This is not good.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:16 PM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
North Korea just stated that it is in the final stages of developing a nuclear weapon capable of reaching parts of the U.S. It won't happen!
He can't go a fucking week without mentioning nukes. This is not good.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:16 PM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Scary Spicer!
posted by octobersurprise at 3:21 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 3:21 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Trump’s Press Secretary Begs The American People To Stop Mocking Donald Trump
Donald will have to deal with a lot worse than people saying mean things about him. Obama and Bush, for all his faults (god, I'm saying something nice about Bush) worked through eight years of relentless criticism and mockery. Being President involves getting criticism, a lot of it, and has since colonial times. I would even dare say that if he didn't want to deal with criticism, he shouldn't have gone after the job.
Like so many things, he seems to only like the First Amendment when it works for him.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:23 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Donald will have to deal with a lot worse than people saying mean things about him. Obama and Bush, for all his faults (god, I'm saying something nice about Bush) worked through eight years of relentless criticism and mockery. Being President involves getting criticism, a lot of it, and has since colonial times. I would even dare say that if he didn't want to deal with criticism, he shouldn't have gone after the job.
Like so many things, he seems to only like the First Amendment when it works for him.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 3:23 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Trump’s Press Secretary Begs The American People To Stop Mocking Donald Trump
"So the idea is everyone wants to talk about the tweets he sent. But I would actually focus on the action he’s getting." Umm...ew.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:28 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
At this rate, he'll probably nuke a target on US soil before he does anything else.
That was half a joke.
And everyone who's left will go "Surely this..."
posted by tel3path at 3:33 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
That was half a joke.
And everyone who's left will go "Surely this..."
posted by tel3path at 3:33 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Happening right now: Effort Underway to Undermine the House’s Ethics Watchdog. According to this tweet, it be only proposed amendment at this point, but even if so, we need to let representatives know this is not acceptable. In another tweet, Daniel Schuman points out a House vote on rules is due soon.
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:36 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 3:36 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Trump Struggling to Pay Salaries
We're all almost tired of winning, the Trump Transition has been going so well. But one of his top congressional supporters says the Transition is actually struggling to pay salaries.posted by kirkaracha at 3:44 PM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
...
The presidential transition is funded with a mix of federal and private funds. Needless to say, President-Elect Trump is free to self-fund the transition to whatever extent he wishes.
Trump’s Press Secretary Begs The American People To Stop Mocking Donald Trump
Dear Mr. Spicer,
Not a chance in hell, buddy. Not a chance in hell.
Sincerely,
65 Million Americans.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:44 PM on January 2, 2017 [21 favorites]
Dear Mr. Spicer,
Not a chance in hell, buddy. Not a chance in hell.
Sincerely,
65 Million Americans.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:44 PM on January 2, 2017 [21 favorites]
Dems call Trump spokesman a 'shill' for Putin
In an email, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) called Spicer’s comments false and pointed to an interview where several former White House press secretaries suggested President-elect Donald Trump often creates his own facts.
“Right on cue, Trump’s incoming White House press secretary was on the morning shows today spinning the falsehood that there is 'zero evidence' that Russia influenced the election through their hacking of DNC and Clinton campaign officials," the DNC email stated.
The email was sent under a subject line arguing that the incoming White House press secretary "shills for Putin."
posted by futz at 3:52 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
In an email, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) called Spicer’s comments false and pointed to an interview where several former White House press secretaries suggested President-elect Donald Trump often creates his own facts.
“Right on cue, Trump’s incoming White House press secretary was on the morning shows today spinning the falsehood that there is 'zero evidence' that Russia influenced the election through their hacking of DNC and Clinton campaign officials," the DNC email stated.
The email was sent under a subject line arguing that the incoming White House press secretary "shills for Putin."
posted by futz at 3:52 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
Trump’s Press Secretary Begs The American People To Stop Mocking Donald Trump
I forgot what an accurate and informative headline looked like. It's almost as if it supports the lede.
posted by klarck at 4:02 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I forgot what an accurate and informative headline looked like. It's almost as if it supports the lede.
posted by klarck at 4:02 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
No one in the military thinks North Korea is a serious threat in the way it's reported. Their saber rattling is like clockwork. In a way, I'd kind of miss it when it's gone, although I'd much prefer the North Korean people be free and have food. I'm not afraid of dying in a nuclear war under a Trump presidency. Maybe terrorists smuggling in dirty bomb, but not in a big nuclear exchange like in movies.
What I am afraid of Trump dropping one on someone else. Trump is a bully - he likes to puff himself up and talk tough, but when he was up for the draft he suddenly got bone spurs despite being on the tennis team months earlier. So he only gets into fights he knows he can win, like calling Marco Rubio short or calling someone poorer than him or their wife not as attractive. In this case, I see him going after a weaker country like Iran or North Korea, maybe out of knee-jerk reaction, maybe to seem to tough, maybe to distract from failed domestic policies, but whatever the reason you must admit he'd likely be pleased with himself for being the the second President in history to drop a nuke. If we're unable to stop something like this, it stains all of our souls. This is a dark and unthinkable outcome.
posted by bluecore at 4:03 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
What I am afraid of Trump dropping one on someone else. Trump is a bully - he likes to puff himself up and talk tough, but when he was up for the draft he suddenly got bone spurs despite being on the tennis team months earlier. So he only gets into fights he knows he can win, like calling Marco Rubio short or calling someone poorer than him or their wife not as attractive. In this case, I see him going after a weaker country like Iran or North Korea, maybe out of knee-jerk reaction, maybe to seem to tough, maybe to distract from failed domestic policies, but whatever the reason you must admit he'd likely be pleased with himself for being the the second President in history to drop a nuke. If we're unable to stop something like this, it stains all of our souls. This is a dark and unthinkable outcome.
posted by bluecore at 4:03 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
Billy House, a congressional correspondent for Bloomberg, appears to be tweeting updates about the OCE amendment currently in Congress.
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:05 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:05 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trump Struggling to Pay Salaries
"Struggling" implies that he wants to pay them, but cant. Maybe giving him too much credit.
posted by p3t3 at 4:05 PM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
"Struggling" implies that he wants to pay them, but cant. Maybe giving him too much credit.
posted by p3t3 at 4:05 PM on January 2, 2017 [10 favorites]
"We're all almost tired of winning, the Trump Transition has been going so well. But one of his top congressional supporters says the Transition is actually struggling to pay salaries."
Well now, that *is* encouraging.
Surely this is the "surely this" we're looking for.
posted by tel3path at 4:06 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well now, that *is* encouraging.
Surely this is the "surely this" we're looking for.
posted by tel3path at 4:06 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trump makes his first request for an intelligence briefing and it's about North Korea.
@realDonaldTrump
North Korea just stated that it is in the final stages of developing a nuclear weapon capable of reaching parts of the U.S. It won't happen!
And now is blaming China for the situation. Take that vacation you always wanted. Might not get another chance.
@realDonaldTrump
China has been taking out massive amounts of money & wealth from the U.S. in totally one-sided trade, but won't help with North Korea. Nice!
posted by chris24 at 4:10 PM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
According to a senior U.S. intelligence official, President-elect Donald Trump's first, and at that time only, request for a special classified intelligence briefing was for one on North Korea and its nuclear weapons programme.Then today tweets about it.
North Korea and its nuclear programme has also been of interest to retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, Trump's choice for national security advisor and a former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency.
@realDonaldTrump
North Korea just stated that it is in the final stages of developing a nuclear weapon capable of reaching parts of the U.S. It won't happen!
And now is blaming China for the situation. Take that vacation you always wanted. Might not get another chance.
@realDonaldTrump
China has been taking out massive amounts of money & wealth from the U.S. in totally one-sided trade, but won't help with North Korea. Nice!
posted by chris24 at 4:10 PM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Trump Struggling to Pay Salaries
"Struggling" implies that he wants to pay them, but cant. Maybe giving him too much credit.
Trump Screws Group of Contractors [fake headline]
If only there'd been some sign that might happen!
posted by jaduncan at 4:11 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
"Struggling" implies that he wants to pay them, but cant. Maybe giving him too much credit.
Trump Screws Group of Contractors [fake headline]
If only there'd been some sign that might happen!
posted by jaduncan at 4:11 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Well, fuck. OCE amendment passes, will be part of proposed rules package.
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:12 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:12 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Surely this is the "surely this" we're looking for.
"Ha! Serves all those fat cats right! Trump isn't going to just let them onto the gravy train! TOOT TOOT!"
posted by Talez at 4:12 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
"Ha! Serves all those fat cats right! Trump isn't going to just let them onto the gravy train! TOOT TOOT!"
posted by Talez at 4:12 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
The OCE amendment should be roundly kicked about by every Dem on every show. It's as close to an admission that Trump is corrupt that they are ever going to get.
Do I have faith that will happen? Heh.
posted by jaduncan at 4:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Do I have faith that will happen? Heh.
posted by jaduncan at 4:15 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
NYT: Benjamin Netanyahu Questioned in Israel Graft Inquiry
Trumpism seems to be catching on everywhere.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:23 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trumpism seems to be catching on everywhere.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:23 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
This series of tweets by someone else has a different view on the OCE amendment. Unsure if I agree, but I'm not an expert. Seems to me the OCE amendment nevertheless prevents anonymous tips, which IMHO is a weakening, but maybe I'm being overly sensitive to anything that looks like it might weaken checks and balances ...
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:27 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:27 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Fake but realistic transcript of Trump's NK intelligence briefing...
"That thing NK said about having an ICBM that can reach the U.S. Can they really do that?"
"No, sir, their capabilities..."
"Good. Is China still supporting them?"
"Well, they're not doing anything to reign them in, but..."
"Bad. Okay, thanks, talk to you later..."
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:34 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
"That thing NK said about having an ICBM that can reach the U.S. Can they really do that?"
"No, sir, their capabilities..."
"Good. Is China still supporting them?"
"Well, they're not doing anything to reign them in, but..."
"Bad. Okay, thanks, talk to you later..."
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:34 PM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
The OCE amendment should be roundly kicked about by every Dem on every show. It's as close to an admission that Trump is corrupt that they are ever going to get.
Two things. First, a Democrat pointing out how Republicans want to fuck up the government is man bites dog. Everyone knows and Ds hate it and Rs won't punish them because god forbid a slut get a cent from the state for an abortion or some other shit.
Second, most Democrats will be happy to see it go. R calls about something looking fishy and you have a five to six figure legal bill sorting shit out.
posted by Talez at 4:34 PM on January 2, 2017
Two things. First, a Democrat pointing out how Republicans want to fuck up the government is man bites dog. Everyone knows and Ds hate it and Rs won't punish them because god forbid a slut get a cent from the state for an abortion or some other shit.
Second, most Democrats will be happy to see it go. R calls about something looking fishy and you have a five to six figure legal bill sorting shit out.
posted by Talez at 4:34 PM on January 2, 2017
NYT: Benjamin Netanyahu Questioned in Israel Graft Inquiry
Trumpism seems to be catching on everywhere.
I would be so, so relieved if the concerns people had about Trump amounted to allegations of bribery. The allegations against Netanyahu are the sort of thing normal politicians have to contend with, not this surreal Kabuki performance that is apparently replacing US politics.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:36 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trumpism seems to be catching on everywhere.
I would be so, so relieved if the concerns people had about Trump amounted to allegations of bribery. The allegations against Netanyahu are the sort of thing normal politicians have to contend with, not this surreal Kabuki performance that is apparently replacing US politics.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:36 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is it OK yet to say that Trump is probably broke?
Yes, he has the 747 and the skyscraper and the golf courses, but he also owes a fuckload of entities a metric fuckload of money, and his big talent seems to be getting people to loan him even more even though he doesn't really seem to have a way to pay it back.
Your net worth is the difference between what you have and what you owe. And I would bet a large pile of money that Trump's net worth is negative. Which means *I* have more money than Trump. Because I'm just a middle class guy but my house is paid off and I don't owe anybody in the world a dime, except for the credit card balance I pay off at the beginning of each month.
The reason Trump's skin is so thin about his net worth is that his net worth is zero or worse. This is why he can't divest as he really should; you can't divest when you're upside-down on your investments. Our President-Elect is in hock to all kinds of people including Russian mobsters.
Of course it took being born on third base to make it possible for Trump to set up this silly situation where he can fly around on his 747 even though he's a broke-ass chump, but that's where he was born and apparently the one thing he ever actually put some effort into studying was how to manipulate the suckers who would give him more money. Basically he's Bernie Madoff with a little more finesse. Unless being elected fucks with his situation, which it very well might, he's probably put the collapse off until after his likely biological death.
The kids are probably hoping to salvage something of the brand; presumably they will be able to continue to peddle the TRUMP name even after all the loans default when Daddy dies. But again, his election is likely to seriously fuck with that.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:40 PM on January 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
Yes, he has the 747 and the skyscraper and the golf courses, but he also owes a fuckload of entities a metric fuckload of money, and his big talent seems to be getting people to loan him even more even though he doesn't really seem to have a way to pay it back.
Your net worth is the difference between what you have and what you owe. And I would bet a large pile of money that Trump's net worth is negative. Which means *I* have more money than Trump. Because I'm just a middle class guy but my house is paid off and I don't owe anybody in the world a dime, except for the credit card balance I pay off at the beginning of each month.
The reason Trump's skin is so thin about his net worth is that his net worth is zero or worse. This is why he can't divest as he really should; you can't divest when you're upside-down on your investments. Our President-Elect is in hock to all kinds of people including Russian mobsters.
Of course it took being born on third base to make it possible for Trump to set up this silly situation where he can fly around on his 747 even though he's a broke-ass chump, but that's where he was born and apparently the one thing he ever actually put some effort into studying was how to manipulate the suckers who would give him more money. Basically he's Bernie Madoff with a little more finesse. Unless being elected fucks with his situation, which it very well might, he's probably put the collapse off until after his likely biological death.
The kids are probably hoping to salvage something of the brand; presumably they will be able to continue to peddle the TRUMP name even after all the loans default when Daddy dies. But again, his election is likely to seriously fuck with that.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:40 PM on January 2, 2017 [22 favorites]
Rebecca Ferguson has been invited to sing at the inauguration. She's agreed, on one condition. That she performs one song: Strange Fruit.
posted by michswiss at 4:49 PM on January 2, 2017 [44 favorites]
posted by michswiss at 4:49 PM on January 2, 2017 [44 favorites]
Rebecca chose her condition wisely. There is no way they will agree to that.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:51 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:51 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Thanks for the correction, qcubed. He has apparently traded in the plane a couple of times so there's some confusion about the plane du jour.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:53 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:53 PM on January 2, 2017
Are there any journalists/bloggers doing rigorous inference about Trump's financial situation from public data?
posted by Coventry at 4:55 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by Coventry at 4:55 PM on January 2, 2017
I see him going after a weaker country like Iran or North Korea, maybe out of knee-jerk reaction, maybe to seem to tough, maybe to distract from failed domestic policies, but whatever the reason you must admit he'd likely be pleased with himself for being the the second President in history to drop a nuke.
This, in spades; Trump is an ego fueled child who sees everything in terms of bigger, badder, bestest. And he's already made it obvious to the intel guys that he's fascinated by nukes. I think he would consider dropping a nuke to be a signature move to put him in the history books.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:00 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
This, in spades; Trump is an ego fueled child who sees everything in terms of bigger, badder, bestest. And he's already made it obvious to the intel guys that he's fascinated by nukes. I think he would consider dropping a nuke to be a signature move to put him in the history books.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:00 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I half expect him to annex New Zealand to teach the rest of the world a thing or two about embarrassing Israel at the UN.
posted by Talez at 5:22 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by Talez at 5:22 PM on January 2, 2017
I have a hypothetical. If Trump ordered a nuke launched for idiotic reasons we've established that Mattis has to confirm that the order came from the President. There has been argument over whether this is a rubber stamp or a failsafe where the SecDef could decline to confirm the order came from the President even if it obviously came from the President. Without taking a position on that question, can't the SecDef resign at any time? And then Congress has to approve a new SecDef?
If Mattis resigns without confirming such an order came from the President, what happens? Is there an Acting Secretary of Defense until his replacement can be confirmed? How is that person selected and who does so?
posted by Justinian at 5:22 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
If Mattis resigns without confirming such an order came from the President, what happens? Is there an Acting Secretary of Defense until his replacement can be confirmed? How is that person selected and who does so?
posted by Justinian at 5:22 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
If Mattis resigns without confirming such an order came from the President, what happens? Is there an Acting Secretary of Defense until his replacement can be confirmed? How is that person selected and who does so?
The Deputy Secretary of Defense would become the Acting Secretary and would be asked to authenticate the order.
posted by Talez at 5:29 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Deputy Secretary of Defense would become the Acting Secretary and would be asked to authenticate the order.
posted by Talez at 5:29 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Although that would be the technically legal way. In all practicality if there was a serious first strike request by Trump that was going to be a complete clusterfuck I think we would see him disappear to Camp David (at least that's what we would be told) and the 25th Amendment would be invoked one way or another.
posted by Talez at 5:33 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Talez at 5:33 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think mar a lago is the new camp david.
posted by valkane at 5:54 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by valkane at 5:54 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
You mean Camp Ivanka?
posted by kirkaracha at 5:58 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 5:58 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think it might be the new White House, with Trump Tower as Camp David.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:59 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 5:59 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
bluecore has also had what seems to be a very informed opinion on how the C&C chain works.
tl;dr it's short and there aren't any real stops.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:59 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
tl;dr it's short and there aren't any real stops.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:59 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
If Mattis resigns without confirming such an order came from the President, what happens?
What do you think happens if Mattis just happens to be playing golf the day the president issues a launch order in response to an enemy attack that is minutes away? Do you think they wait for him to putt out on the 18th green?
posted by JackFlash at 6:01 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
What do you think happens if Mattis just happens to be playing golf the day the president issues a launch order in response to an enemy attack that is minutes away? Do you think they wait for him to putt out on the 18th green?
posted by JackFlash at 6:01 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I dunno... they go to the Assistant Secretary? And if they can't reach him... at some point the dudes with the keys have to decide whether to fire or not?
*cue Wargames* TURN YOUR KEY!
posted by Justinian at 6:16 PM on January 2, 2017
*cue Wargames* TURN YOUR KEY!
posted by Justinian at 6:16 PM on January 2, 2017
I took a day off from calling my rep's office and Goodlatte happens. Time to cozy up to Rep. Clark's interns again.
posted by pxe2000 at 6:16 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 6:16 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Your net worth is the difference between what you have and what you owe. And I would bet a large pile of money that Trump's net worth is negative.
This is not necessarily a dead-end in business as long as the cash flow exists to make payments on the debt. What I gather from the latest news about Trump struggling to pay his transition team is that he does not have the cash flow to take on any additional obligations. He may be stretched to his limit, which he likely assumes is only temporary, especially given the perks of his new job starting in a few weeks.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:16 PM on January 2, 2017
This is not necessarily a dead-end in business as long as the cash flow exists to make payments on the debt. What I gather from the latest news about Trump struggling to pay his transition team is that he does not have the cash flow to take on any additional obligations. He may be stretched to his limit, which he likely assumes is only temporary, especially given the perks of his new job starting in a few weeks.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:16 PM on January 2, 2017
How is he not already swimming in money from his secret service scams?
posted by Artw at 6:19 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:19 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
How is he not already swimming in money from his secret service scams?
Because the only things that are profitable are these pissant little scams and licensing agreements of his name. However, the amount they bring in are piddling next to the interest payments on his debt.
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Because the only things that are profitable are these pissant little scams and licensing agreements of his name. However, the amount they bring in are piddling next to the interest payments on his debt.
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Talez: don't worry, the Trump organisation will soon be getting sweetheart deals to build in many other countries. It both offers the prospect of excellent ROI when dealing with the USA and the virtual certainty that your capital city will not be bombed. What's not to like?
posted by jaduncan at 6:29 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 6:29 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I dunno... they go to the Assistant Secretary?
If they can handle the situation where the Secretary of Defense happens to be golfing, I surmise that they can just as easily handle the situation where the Secretary of Defense declines to do his job for whatever reason.
posted by JackFlash at 6:33 PM on January 2, 2017
If they can handle the situation where the Secretary of Defense happens to be golfing, I surmise that they can just as easily handle the situation where the Secretary of Defense declines to do his job for whatever reason.
posted by JackFlash at 6:33 PM on January 2, 2017
It's not confidence building that he's so bad even at being a crook, which is the only thing anyone suspects he has any competence as.
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's not confidence building that he's so bad even at being a crook, which is the only thing anyone suspects he has any competence as.
Again, he's underperformed investing in a simple index fund. It makes more sense to me measuring in in narcissistic supply rather than money; being a boring rich investor doesn't get your name up on gaudy buildings or on the lips of the nation and he's actually succeeded rather well at that. It also makes sense that you'd never, ever cut expenses where they show conspicuous consumption. The brand isn't just a business good, in that case. The character of rich and successful Businessman Trump is who he is, and all facts that contradict that must be incredibly threatening as a result. It all has to be gaudy, and nobody must ever look too close to see the yawning insecurity that exists underneath.
Now he has nukes, of course.
posted by jaduncan at 6:48 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Again, he's underperformed investing in a simple index fund. It makes more sense to me measuring in in narcissistic supply rather than money; being a boring rich investor doesn't get your name up on gaudy buildings or on the lips of the nation and he's actually succeeded rather well at that. It also makes sense that you'd never, ever cut expenses where they show conspicuous consumption. The brand isn't just a business good, in that case. The character of rich and successful Businessman Trump is who he is, and all facts that contradict that must be incredibly threatening as a result. It all has to be gaudy, and nobody must ever look too close to see the yawning insecurity that exists underneath.
Now he has nukes, of course.
posted by jaduncan at 6:48 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well.... this doesn't seem good.
With No Warning, House Republicans Vote to Hobble Independent Ethics Office
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:54 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
With No Warning, House Republicans Vote to Hobble Independent Ethics Office
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:54 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Those crazy republicans. Always voting against ethics.
posted by valkane at 6:55 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by valkane at 6:55 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Are there any journalists/bloggers doing rigorous inference about Trump's financial situation from public data?
I recommend David Cay Johnston, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist who specializes in tax issues:
"Making of Donald Trump" book
Twitter
Help fund his newsletter project
posted by JDC8 at 6:57 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
I recommend David Cay Johnston, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist who specializes in tax issues:
"Making of Donald Trump" book
Help fund his newsletter project
posted by JDC8 at 6:57 PM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
"No warning" if you didn't know what a Republican was until this morning.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:59 PM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 6:59 PM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
Shocked. Yes shocked I am to- *sigh*
Where at least I know . . I'm freeeeeee . . .
posted by petebest at 7:01 PM on January 2, 2017
Where at least I know . . I'm freeeeeee . . .
posted by petebest at 7:01 PM on January 2, 2017
There was plenty of warning.
1) (from the article) [the] ethics office [was] set up in 2008 in the aftermath of corruption scandals that sent three members of Congress to jail.
2) Trump were elected.
Shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked. /fry
posted by mrgoat at 7:06 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
1) (from the article) [the] ethics office [was] set up in 2008 in the aftermath of corruption scandals that sent three members of Congress to jail.
2) Trump were elected.
Shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked. /fry
posted by mrgoat at 7:06 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Is there somewhere I can see a vote breakdown for the ethics change? Want to see how my congressman voted.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:18 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:18 PM on January 2, 2017
Secret ballot! Draining the Swamp!
posted by Justinian at 7:20 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:20 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Snarky remarks about trusting Republicans aside, can someone walk me through this ethics commission that this House committee is trying to disembowel? The article is a touch vague, and I am working out who I need to call and shout at first thing tomorrow morning. If I can shout at Senators, awesome; if my House rep is the only one who can get involved with/directly vote on this, well, uh, I'll call him anyway but I don't really think he needs my prodding to do the right thing. In that case, I figure my phone call will mostly just be useful to shore up support in his office.
posted by sciatrix at 7:20 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sciatrix at 7:20 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
ThePinkSuperhero: article says voting on the new rules change happens tomorrow morning.
posted by sciatrix at 7:21 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by sciatrix at 7:21 PM on January 2, 2017
Yes, the vote to include the ethics changes was secret. The vote on the rules package itself is not secret. But I'll save you the suspense: If your congressman is a Republican he will have voted for the rules package.
posted by Justinian at 7:23 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by Justinian at 7:23 PM on January 2, 2017
My Republican congressman is a lame duck so he betta don't
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:27 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:27 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Pelosi Statement on Republicans Destroying Office of Congressional Ethics in Rules Package
Washington, D.C. – Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi released the following statement after the House Republican Conference voted to include the Goodlatte amendment in the House Republicans Rules package which effectively destroys the independent Office of Congressional Ethics, preventing it from reviewing anonymous complaints and moving it under the control of the Committee on Ethics:
“Republicans claim they want to ‘drain the swamp,’ but the night before the new Congress gets sworn in, the House GOP has eliminated the only independent ethics oversight of their actions. Evidently, ethics are the first casualty of the new Republican Congress.
posted by futz at 7:28 PM on January 2, 2017 [20 favorites]
Washington, D.C. – Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi released the following statement after the House Republican Conference voted to include the Goodlatte amendment in the House Republicans Rules package which effectively destroys the independent Office of Congressional Ethics, preventing it from reviewing anonymous complaints and moving it under the control of the Committee on Ethics:
“Republicans claim they want to ‘drain the swamp,’ but the night before the new Congress gets sworn in, the House GOP has eliminated the only independent ethics oversight of their actions. Evidently, ethics are the first casualty of the new Republican Congress.
posted by futz at 7:28 PM on January 2, 2017 [20 favorites]
Josh Marshall took a break from PornHub tonight to weigh in on tonight's vote:
One of the sales' points for this new set up is that it "provide[s] protection [for Members of Congress] against disclosures to the public or other government entities" of the results of any investigations. In other words, if wrongdoing is found the newly-neutered OCE can't tell anyone. Awesome. They can't have a press person, issue reports, do anything without the say of the Ethics Committee. In other words, the whole thing is a joke, both the new version of the OCE (now the "“Office of Congressional Complaint Review") and this whole move. But it's the Trump Era. Members want to get down to business, get their piece of the action and not have anyone giving them any crap. Just like the big cheese down Pennsylvania Avenue. It's the Trump Era.posted by tonycpsu at 7:39 PM on January 2, 2017 [17 favorites]
[...]
Now, the reports from Capitol Hill are that Speaker Ryan and Majority Leader McCarthy warned against the move. And I don't doubt that that's true as far as it goes. As in they said, oh please don't do this. But c'mon! If the Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader really don't want something to happen, they can stop it. They didn't. The vote passed 119 to 74.
This is all part of Ryan's 'better way.'
I wonder what it will take for the people who sincerely thought Trump would purge Washington to realize they've been had, if they ever do.
Judging from what I've seen and the reports on MF, many of them don't seem the least bit bothered at all even after all the horrible cabinet picks and immature behavior. I've been very disturbed even in the early stages by how so many of the Trump supporters off the street don't seem to think about the full implications of what he says and does beyond "It upsets liberals, therefore it's good".
(thinks about back in the beginning when Trump first said he was running and so many of the late-night comedians thought it was hilarious, ha ha, he'll never win...)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:45 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Judging from what I've seen and the reports on MF, many of them don't seem the least bit bothered at all even after all the horrible cabinet picks and immature behavior. I've been very disturbed even in the early stages by how so many of the Trump supporters off the street don't seem to think about the full implications of what he says and does beyond "It upsets liberals, therefore it's good".
(thinks about back in the beginning when Trump first said he was running and so many of the late-night comedians thought it was hilarious, ha ha, he'll never win...)
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:45 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
fucking ugh.
WikiLeaks founder: Obama admin trying to ‘delegitimize' Trump
...“They’re trying to delegitimize the Trump administration as it goes into the White House,” Assange said during an interview with Fox News's Sean Hannity airing Tuesday night, according to a transcript of excerpts from the network.
..."Our publications had wide uptake by the American people, they’re all true,” Assange continued. “But that’s not the allegation that’s being presented by the Obama White House.”
Assange reiterated the group's denial that Russia was the source of the Democratic documents released over the summer.
“Our source is not a state party, so the answer for our interactions is no,” he said.
...“Did [WikiLeaks] change the outcome of the election? Who knows, it’s impossible to tell," Assange said.
"But if it did, the accusation is that the true statements of Hillary Clinton and her campaign manager, John Podesta, and the DNC head Debbie Wasserman Schultz, their true statements is what changed the election.”
The fact that he plays coy/lies about the DNC leaks affecting the election proves, once again, that he is a yuge piece of shit.
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on January 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
WikiLeaks founder: Obama admin trying to ‘delegitimize' Trump
...“They’re trying to delegitimize the Trump administration as it goes into the White House,” Assange said during an interview with Fox News's Sean Hannity airing Tuesday night, according to a transcript of excerpts from the network.
..."Our publications had wide uptake by the American people, they’re all true,” Assange continued. “But that’s not the allegation that’s being presented by the Obama White House.”
Assange reiterated the group's denial that Russia was the source of the Democratic documents released over the summer.
“Our source is not a state party, so the answer for our interactions is no,” he said.
...“Did [WikiLeaks] change the outcome of the election? Who knows, it’s impossible to tell," Assange said.
"But if it did, the accusation is that the true statements of Hillary Clinton and her campaign manager, John Podesta, and the DNC head Debbie Wasserman Schultz, their true statements is what changed the election.”
The fact that he plays coy/lies about the DNC leaks affecting the election proves, once again, that he is a yuge piece of shit.
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on January 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
This election has shown a lot of people's true colors, for better and largely for worse.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:53 PM on January 2, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 7:53 PM on January 2, 2017 [17 favorites]
I wonder what it will take for the people who sincerely thought Trump would purge Washington to realize they've been had, if they ever do.
Massive and undeniable suffering, personally or in their loved ones / social circle. Even that would only convince some portion of those who voted for him to "give him a chance," not the core true believers; the redhats will love him forever no matter what.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:54 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Massive and undeniable suffering, personally or in their loved ones / social circle. Even that would only convince some portion of those who voted for him to "give him a chance," not the core true believers; the redhats will love him forever no matter what.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:54 PM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
WaPo: Russian government hackers do not appear to have targeted Vermont utility, say people close to investigation
posted by tonycpsu at 7:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
"the accusation is that the true statements of Hillary Clinton and her campaign manager, John Podesta, and the DNC head Debbie Wasserman Schultz, their true statements is what changed the election.” - Assange
Um, yeah - somehow only their emails got broadcast to the world, not the emails of their competitors. You're not going to convince me that's because their competitors are just such upstanding people.
posted by wondermouse at 7:57 PM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Um, yeah - somehow only their emails got broadcast to the world, not the emails of their competitors. You're not going to convince me that's because their competitors are just such upstanding people.
posted by wondermouse at 7:57 PM on January 2, 2017 [9 favorites]
Wow. WaPo's reporting has been all over the map on reporting the Vermont hack. And now this? Perhaps a little restraint next time WaPo? Good on them for correcting the record so to speak but that horse already left the barn and is still running wild.
posted by futz at 8:04 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by futz at 8:04 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Rapist and Russian stooge supports other rapist and Russian stooge.
posted by Artw at 8:04 PM on January 2, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:04 PM on January 2, 2017 [18 favorites]
game recognizes game
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:06 PM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:06 PM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Officials told the company that traffic with this particular address is found elsewhere in the country and is not unique to Burlington Electric, suggesting the company wasn’t being targeted by the Russians. Indeed, officials say it is possible that the traffic is benign, since this particular IP address is not always connected to malicious activity.
A forseeable consequence of including IP addresses for tor exit nodes and VPS's in the IOC list. Sounds like they did actually find a compromise, though, even if it probably wasn't Russians.
posted by Coventry at 8:13 PM on January 2, 2017
A forseeable consequence of including IP addresses for tor exit nodes and VPS's in the IOC list. Sounds like they did actually find a compromise, though, even if it probably wasn't Russians.
posted by Coventry at 8:13 PM on January 2, 2017
The obvious answer to Assange's argument us that, while the stuff Wikileaks published mught have been true, the stuff Trump claimed it proved was not.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:16 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:16 PM on January 2, 2017
I wonder what it will take for the people who sincerely thought Trump would purge Washington to realize they've been had, if they ever do.
Remember though that in context the swamp he claimed he's gonna drain is professional politicians and bureaucrats and "Washington insiders." Since he's so far mostly floated businessmen and other supporters who've never been elected to anything, right now everything is hunky-dory in Trump-believer World. And low-information voters don't grasp that millionaire CEO's are also "Washington insiders." So it's gonna take a while.
Ideally he'll manage to get into a series of feuds with Fox News/Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh/Bill O'Reilly/ etc etc etc - conservative infighting will help spread the word much quicker among those who might actually become disillusioned with Trump either breaking promises or keeping promises they didn't believe he was serious about.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
Remember though that in context the swamp he claimed he's gonna drain is professional politicians and bureaucrats and "Washington insiders." Since he's so far mostly floated businessmen and other supporters who've never been elected to anything, right now everything is hunky-dory in Trump-believer World. And low-information voters don't grasp that millionaire CEO's are also "Washington insiders." So it's gonna take a while.
Ideally he'll manage to get into a series of feuds with Fox News/Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh/Bill O'Reilly/ etc etc etc - conservative infighting will help spread the word much quicker among those who might actually become disillusioned with Trump either breaking promises or keeping promises they didn't believe he was serious about.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:56 PM on January 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
An interesting tweet thread by Adam Kahn,
posted by localhuman at 9:05 PM on January 2, 2017 [21 favorites]
According to some dot connecting Details of Russian financing of Trump are soon going to emerge, thanks to a lawsuit filed by a disgruntled Bayrock associate, Jody Kriss.there's story goes on a few more tweets
Bayrock, headed by Russian mobster Sater and former Soviet official, Arif pumped hundreds of millions into Trump
The lawsuit names Trump as a “material witness” in evasion of taxes on as much as $250 million in income, and laundering $ to Russia.
posted by localhuman at 9:05 PM on January 2, 2017 [21 favorites]
> The lawsuit names Trump as a “material witness” in evasion of taxes on as much as $250 million in income, and laundering $ to Russia.
Less than three weeks to Inauguration day, y'all.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:45 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Less than three weeks to Inauguration day, y'all.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:45 PM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Politico article about the OCE congressional ethics move today: "Monday's effort was led, in part, by lawmakers who have come under investigation in recent years."
posted by StrawberryPie at 9:55 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 9:55 PM on January 2, 2017 [11 favorites]
An interesting tweet thread by Adam Kahn
Anyone got a PDF of the complaint?
When is the case likely to be heard?
posted by Coventry at 10:00 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Anyone got a PDF of the complaint?
When is the case likely to be heard?
posted by Coventry at 10:00 PM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Trump-Era Corporate Boycott
For decades, we held corporations responsible for labor practices and environmental records. Now we target them for real or imagined political messages.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:44 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
For decades, we held corporations responsible for labor practices and environmental records. Now we target them for real or imagined political messages.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:44 PM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Why Corporations Are Helping Donald Trump Lie About Jobs
posted by zachlipton at 1:05 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 1:05 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
I wish these corporations weren't so omnipresent in modern America, because if they weren't I could afford to boycott a lot more of them. I have a feeling they know that, too, unfortunately.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:51 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 1:51 AM on January 3, 2017
Wonder which friend or family member shorted GM. Because otherwise, a call to Marry Barra, GM CEO and member of Trump's advisory council, might've been easier.
@realDonaldTrump
General Motors is sending Mexican made model of Chevy Cruze to U.S. car dealers-tax free across border. Make in U.S.A.or pay big border tax!
posted by chris24 at 4:39 AM on January 3, 2017
@realDonaldTrump
General Motors is sending Mexican made model of Chevy Cruze to U.S. car dealers-tax free across border. Make in U.S.A.or pay big border tax!
posted by chris24 at 4:39 AM on January 3, 2017
thedarksideofprocyon: You know what, I would have said that myself a few weeks ago, except that the success that Sleeping Giants has had shaming corporations who advertise on Breitbart and getting them to pull advertising funds. Even boycotts... well, I can't boycott everything either, but I can do things like helping friends pull funds out of banks that support Standing Rock and transfer them to unaffected banks and unions, which took some work but also cuts into a bank's bottom line. I know a lot of people who have done that.
With respect to Sprint, well, lots of us have unlocked phones on pre-paid plans; if AT&T (my main provider) had recently behaved like Sprint, it would actually be fairly trivial for me to switch up my service. I think that no, we can't boycott everything, but within reason pulling funds and especially long-term service relationships away from corporations who interfere with politics like this can be effective--especially if folks are loud about what they're doing and why both to the companies themselves but also their friends.
posted by sciatrix at 5:03 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
With respect to Sprint, well, lots of us have unlocked phones on pre-paid plans; if AT&T (my main provider) had recently behaved like Sprint, it would actually be fairly trivial for me to switch up my service. I think that no, we can't boycott everything, but within reason pulling funds and especially long-term service relationships away from corporations who interfere with politics like this can be effective--especially if folks are loud about what they're doing and why both to the companies themselves but also their friends.
posted by sciatrix at 5:03 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
OK, post-election thread, I love you best of all, but I'm going to hit the road today, make some news at a big conference, give a talk or two, and try to tune out on our President-Elect for a few days. I'll see you (or your successor) on the other side. Try not to blow up meanwhile. (Sob.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 5:13 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by RedOrGreen at 5:13 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
I've been very disturbed even in the early stages by how so many of the Trump supporters off the street don't seem to think about the full implications of what he says and does beyond "It upsets liberals, therefore it's good".
This was all it was ever about.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:40 AM on January 3, 2017 [26 favorites]
This was all it was ever about.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:40 AM on January 3, 2017 [26 favorites]
@KellyannePolls just committed to this: Trump says replace plan must leave no one who currently has coverage without it [transcript]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:44 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:44 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Repeal Obamacare and replace it with Trumpcare! It's perfectly in character, just slap his name on it and take credit for reducing the uninsured rate. Afterall, most of what Republicans hate about Obamacare is that it was passed by a Democrat.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:54 AM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:54 AM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
"committed to this"
doesn't mean what you think it does.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:54 AM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
doesn't mean what you think it does.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:54 AM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
@KellyannePolls:
I don't see the point of interviewing, much less listening, to her. Just throw the I Ching, you're bound to get better, more insightful, data.
posted by petebest at 5:55 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
I don't see the point of interviewing, much less listening, to her. Just throw the I Ching, you're bound to get better, more insightful, data.
posted by petebest at 5:55 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Matt Yglesias, Vox: Democrats would be smart to embrace Keith Ellison as DNC chair
The number one job of any defeated political party is to lick its wounds, survey the scene, recognize that its members all have more in common with each other than they do with their opponents, and set about doing what it can to resist the new government.posted by tonycpsu at 6:19 AM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
If there were no Sanders-backed candidate in the race and no hint of a 2016 primary campaign proxy war, everyone would agree that the top task facing, whoever got the nod, was to put the wounds of the primary behind them and unify the party. But there is a Sanders-backed candidate in the race, and realistically speaking the best way to unify the party is to let the Sanders faction have their way and put Ellison in.
Even Trump thinks gutting the OCE is a bad idea .. I think .. it's not really a complete sentence:
@realDonaldTrump: With all that Congress has to work on, do they really have to make the weakening of the Independent Ethics Watchdog, as unfair as it
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:08 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump: With all that Congress has to work on, do they really have to make the weakening of the Independent Ethics Watchdog, as unfair as it
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:08 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
...... Here comes the rest!!!!
.......may be, their number one act and priority. Focus on tax reform, healthcare and so many other things of far greater importance! #DTS
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:09 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
.......may be, their number one act and priority. Focus on tax reform, healthcare and so many other things of far greater importance! #DTS
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:09 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
RobotVoodooPower, you always have to wait about 4 minutes for him to finish his thought.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:10 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:10 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Hmmmm. Why would the Rep Congress feel the need to get rid of oversight now? Could it be they are planning to feed heavily at the trough? Maybe if Trump is busy cramming his pockets with gold, Congress is hoping a little will "trickle down" their way.
"Let's hope there is less oversight of congress" said no voter, ever.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:13 AM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
"Let's hope there is less oversight of congress" said no voter, ever.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:13 AM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
Rebecca chose her condition wisely. There is no way they will agree to that.
But if they did, it would be glorious. Well done Ms. Ferguson.
posted by emjaybee at 7:16 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
But if they did, it would be glorious. Well done Ms. Ferguson.
posted by emjaybee at 7:16 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Rebecca Ferguson has been invited to sing at the inauguration. She's agreed, on one condition. That she performs one song: Strange Fruit.
"Trump has been struggling to get A-listers to appear at his inauguration. Elton John, Gene Simmons and Garth Brooks have all turned down invites..."
Elton John? HAH! And this has increased my appreciation for Gene Simmons and Garth Brooks.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:43 AM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
"Trump has been struggling to get A-listers to appear at his inauguration. Elton John, Gene Simmons and Garth Brooks have all turned down invites..."
Elton John? HAH! And this has increased my appreciation for Gene Simmons and Garth Brooks.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:43 AM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
And The Guardian's list of 10 other appropriate songs is great:
1. Immigrants (We get the Job Done) by K’naan, Snow Tha Product, Riz MC and Residente, a tune from The Hamilton Mixtape
2. Take the Power Back by Rage Against the Machine
3. Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen
4. Ronnie, Talk to Russia by Prince
5. Respect by Aretha Franklin
6. Fight the Power by Public Enemy (my alternative suggestion: Don't Believe the Hype)
7. Born this Way by Lady Gaga
8. Trump is on your Side by Moby and the Homeland Choir
9. I Will Survive by Gloria Gaynor
10. Changes by Tupac Shakur
Now I want to make an inauguration day mixtape with tracks like these.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:51 AM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
1. Immigrants (We get the Job Done) by K’naan, Snow Tha Product, Riz MC and Residente, a tune from The Hamilton Mixtape
2. Take the Power Back by Rage Against the Machine
3. Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen
4. Ronnie, Talk to Russia by Prince
5. Respect by Aretha Franklin
6. Fight the Power by Public Enemy (my alternative suggestion: Don't Believe the Hype)
7. Born this Way by Lady Gaga
8. Trump is on your Side by Moby and the Homeland Choir
9. I Will Survive by Gloria Gaynor
10. Changes by Tupac Shakur
Now I want to make an inauguration day mixtape with tracks like these.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:51 AM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
In 2014 Matt Bevin ran on an explicit promise to shut down KYnect and scrap the Medicare expansion. He won Owsley County by nearly forty points. Trump ran on an explicit promise to scrap Obamacare (which would scrap the Medicaid expansion) and won the county by seventy fucking points.
Now they're all shit scared they're going to lose life saving healthcare. They thought Trump was just being his usual braggadocious jackass and nobody would actually, you know, sentence them to what is effectively death for being poor. It's at this point you throw your arms up in the air with an exclamation of "I CAN'T EVEN!"
We want change, but not the kind of change that will (quite literally) hurt us.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:54 AM on January 3, 2017
Now they're all shit scared they're going to lose life saving healthcare. They thought Trump was just being his usual braggadocious jackass and nobody would actually, you know, sentence them to what is effectively death for being poor. It's at this point you throw your arms up in the air with an exclamation of "I CAN'T EVEN!"
We want change, but not the kind of change that will (quite literally) hurt us.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:54 AM on January 3, 2017
Thinking this ethics committee business was orchestrated to make Trump look good. Paul Krugman tweeted "Notice that Trump isn't really condemning -- let alone blocking - House gutting of ethics oversight, just complaining that it looks bad." Then someone responded by pointing out they got an alert from NYT that said "Donald Trump rebuked House Republicans ...". Adam Nagourney tweeted "Great point by @maggieNYT. Trump takes advantage of fast paced media to make it appear as if he opposes policy change, rather than timing."
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:59 AM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:59 AM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
And this has increased my appreciation for Gene Simmons and Garth Brooks.
I suspect that noted blowhard and asshole Gene Simmons only refused to perform because it's not a paying gig.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:00 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I suspect that noted blowhard and asshole Gene Simmons only refused to perform because it's not a paying gig.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:00 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ford cancels plans for Mexican plant...now creating 700 jobs in Mexico.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:02 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:02 AM on January 3, 2017
I suspect that noted blowhard and asshole Gene Simmons only refused to perform because it's not a paying gig.
Hah, quite possible. I didn't say it redeemed my view of him, just increased my appreciation of him.
I'm half expecting _rump to get a cover band to play more Stones hits, like the absurdly on-the-nose Donnie favorite, "You Can't Always Get What You Want." (What is it exactly that we need?)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:03 AM on January 3, 2017
Hah, quite possible. I didn't say it redeemed my view of him, just increased my appreciation of him.
I'm half expecting _rump to get a cover band to play more Stones hits, like the absurdly on-the-nose Donnie favorite, "You Can't Always Get What You Want." (What is it exactly that we need?)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:03 AM on January 3, 2017
@KellyannePolls just committed to this: Trump says replace plan must leave no one who currently has coverage without it [transcript]
Depends on how they decide to define coverage. It will probably mean everyone gets slapped with super high deductibles and an HSA. But, technically you have coverage, even if it won't pay for shit.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:05 AM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
Depends on how they decide to define coverage. It will probably mean everyone gets slapped with super high deductibles and an HSA. But, technically you have coverage, even if it won't pay for shit.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:05 AM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
In regards to one of _rump's top promises: the hopes and dreams are all over the board for infrastructure, but Cracks start to emerge in Trump infrastructure pledge (AP via Detroit News, December 26, 2016)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:07 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
It’s not at all clear that President-elect Donald Trump’s plans to spend massively on infrastructure are going to unfold as he promised.Really, why shouldn't our infrastructure match our political aspirations? If "third world" democracy is good enough for our leaders, why should we hope for more for our roads, water and wastewater, hospitals and schools?
Trump made rebuilding the nation’s aging roads, bridges and airports very much part of his job-creation strategy in the presidential race. But lately lobbyists have begun to fear that there won’t be an infrastructure proposal at all, or at least not the grand plan they’d been led to expect.
From the day he entered the presidential race to the moment he declared victory, Trump pledged an infrastructure renewal. He cited decaying bridges, potholed roads and airports like New York’s LaGuardia that he said reminded him of the “third world.”
...
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell tried to tamp down expectations last week, telling reporters he wants to avoid “a $1 trillion stimulus.” And Reince Priebus, who will be Trump’s chief of staff, said in a radio interview that the new administration will focus in its first nine months with other issues like health care and rewriting tax laws. He sidestepped questions about the infrastructure plan.
In a post-election interview with The New York Times, Trump himself seemed to back away, saying infrastructure won’t be a “core” part of the first few years of his administration. But he said there will still be “a very large-scale infrastructure bill.”
posted by filthy light thief at 8:07 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Here is the text of the Goodlatte amendment: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3249488-Goodlatte-OCE-Amendment-to-House-Rules.html (unverified, but linked to from here)
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:11 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:11 AM on January 3, 2017
Here is a list of names of House judiciary members.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:15 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:15 AM on January 3, 2017
The series of tweets here provides excellent info about how to go about calling your representative, for people who are up for it and haven't done that already.
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:18 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 8:18 AM on January 3, 2017
It's at this point you throw your arms up in the air with an exclamation of "I CAN'T EVEN!"
We want change, but not the kind of change that will (quite literally) hurt us.
You hear the commentators say that they are voting against their own interests, but you have to realize that their interest in guns, god and gays is greater than life itself.
posted by JackFlash at 8:22 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
We want change, but not the kind of change that will (quite literally) hurt us.
You hear the commentators say that they are voting against their own interests, but you have to realize that their interest in guns, god and gays is greater than life itself.
posted by JackFlash at 8:22 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
@KellyannePolls just committed to this: Trump says replace plan must leave no one who currently has coverage without it
How many days before the Trump makes her retract her words and flip to the opposite position? I'm calling three days, four hours. It's good for her that she can dance backwards nearly as nimbly as Ginger Rogers. Appalling, yet strangely skillful. Trump doesn't give a hoot if he embarrasses her and all his proxies. In fact he may enjoy it. A stated position isn't a position -- it's the beginning of a tumbling run.
posted by puddledork at 8:30 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
How many days before the Trump makes her retract her words and flip to the opposite position? I'm calling three days, four hours. It's good for her that she can dance backwards nearly as nimbly as Ginger Rogers. Appalling, yet strangely skillful. Trump doesn't give a hoot if he embarrasses her and all his proxies. In fact he may enjoy it. A stated position isn't a position -- it's the beginning of a tumbling run.
posted by puddledork at 8:30 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
My Congressman, Capuano, who chaired the task force which founded the OCE, just posted a statement:
The OCE is not perfect and certainly some minor tweaking of the process may be in order, but the key word here is minor. Any tweaking should be done in public, so the America people can see the debate for themselves. If House Republicans bothered to read the report recommending creation of the OCE they would find that very suggestion at the end of it – “The Task Force recommends … a panel of Members to conduct an ongoing review of the ethics process.” Here is that report – see page 21 for more on that recommendation -posted by galaxy rise at 8:40 AM on January 3, 2017 [29 favorites]
The amendment demolishing the OCE was never publicly discussed. It was proposed and adopted inside a secretive Republican Caucus without anyone outside that meeting knowing it was even going to be debated.
This is not a good way to start – a closed meeting of one Party, held at night, in the basement of the US Capitol, for the purpose of ending transparency in the ethics process.
Personally, I have never witnessed such a rapid march back to the bad old days of the good-old-boys club.
Another update on the Montana Nazi Situation. Hope it's the last one but I ain't banking on hope.
1) Walking fistula Andrew Anglin is claiming that the Whitefish march is happening, that there's a date (the 15th), that he'll be there and that he will be applying for a permit. He appears to have only said this in emails to reporters. His website has no recently updated articles about this and its discussion boards don't have any new information either.
2) Still no online alt-righters claiming that they are actually going, apart from Anglin himself. He claims he has 200 people and is busing in skinheads from the bay area (might be subzero temps so I hope they bring long johns and smartwool or they'll catch their death). If he has the people, they have an unlikely amount of discipline in their secrecy. Who knows.
3) Local and state-level opposition is strong and has been getting a lot of press and public attention. Human rights and progressive political organizations have pretty vigorous awareness and donation campaigns. There's some division about if or how there should be activism at the march itself, were there to be one: while organizations are mostly discouraging counterprotests, a sizable contingent of people, (including a group of veterans) are expressing a desire for a (peaceful) armed counterdemonstration. The last part is paradoxically both a little alarming and a little comforting, but for me the needle is slightly on the side of comforting. If there's going to be something to resist, that resistance will be energetic.
Are any actual nazis going to show up to march? Dunno. Are lots of non-nazis engaged and organizing against them? Yes. Will it be a shitshow if nazis do actually show up? Maybe.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:56 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
1) Walking fistula Andrew Anglin is claiming that the Whitefish march is happening, that there's a date (the 15th), that he'll be there and that he will be applying for a permit. He appears to have only said this in emails to reporters. His website has no recently updated articles about this and its discussion boards don't have any new information either.
2) Still no online alt-righters claiming that they are actually going, apart from Anglin himself. He claims he has 200 people and is busing in skinheads from the bay area (might be subzero temps so I hope they bring long johns and smartwool or they'll catch their death). If he has the people, they have an unlikely amount of discipline in their secrecy. Who knows.
3) Local and state-level opposition is strong and has been getting a lot of press and public attention. Human rights and progressive political organizations have pretty vigorous awareness and donation campaigns. There's some division about if or how there should be activism at the march itself, were there to be one: while organizations are mostly discouraging counterprotests, a sizable contingent of people, (including a group of veterans) are expressing a desire for a (peaceful) armed counterdemonstration. The last part is paradoxically both a little alarming and a little comforting, but for me the needle is slightly on the side of comforting. If there's going to be something to resist, that resistance will be energetic.
Are any actual nazis going to show up to march? Dunno. Are lots of non-nazis engaged and organizing against them? Yes. Will it be a shitshow if nazis do actually show up? Maybe.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:56 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Apparently there's a new thread for the OCE situation specifically. Leaving a link here in case anyone else missed it like I did!
posted by galaxy rise at 9:11 AM on January 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by galaxy rise at 9:11 AM on January 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
1) Walking fistula Andrew Anglin is claiming that the Whitefish march is happening, that there's a date (the 15th), that he'll be there and that he will be applying for a permit.
I think he's hoping to be denied a permit, and probably has a fundraising email all ready to go the minute that happens.
I'd like to see the left counter program something constructive on the same day (free vaccinations, puppy adoptions, voter registrations, interfaith coffee and hugging, something) just to have it be ten times bigger than his rude Nazi crap. I'd like to see love trumping hate, love being more popular than hate, on the evening news. A thousand times bigger would be even better.
posted by puddledork at 9:13 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think he's hoping to be denied a permit, and probably has a fundraising email all ready to go the minute that happens.
I'd like to see the left counter program something constructive on the same day (free vaccinations, puppy adoptions, voter registrations, interfaith coffee and hugging, something) just to have it be ten times bigger than his rude Nazi crap. I'd like to see love trumping hate, love being more popular than hate, on the evening news. A thousand times bigger would be even better.
posted by puddledork at 9:13 AM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Hey, Rust Moranis, thanks for all your reporting on the Montana situation. A young Muslim woman I met a month ago posted Anglin's latest claim to march this morning with a note saying that she wasn't going to be able to sleep because she was afraid. Your comments are what clued me in to be able to bring to her the news she hadn't seen, about local resistance in the Whitefish community, state Montanan officials denouncing the racist march, and local pro-solidarity movements happening in the Whitefish community. I think it made her feel a little better to be reminded that there are still people in these communities willing to act to keep their neighbors safe. So on that tack, thank you for sharing your news on the ground and letting me know how Montanans are viewing this march; I appreciate it.
Here's some of the articles I found to show her, if you want them. They're mostly what looks to me like local news.
posted by sciatrix at 9:21 AM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
Here's some of the articles I found to show her, if you want them. They're mostly what looks to me like local news.
posted by sciatrix at 9:21 AM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
Ford cancels Mexico plant. Will create 700 U.S. jobs in 'vote of confidence' in Trump
Ford (F) CEO Mark Fields said the investment is a "vote of confidence" in the pro-business environment being created by Donald Trump. However, he stressed Ford did not do any sort of special deal with the president-elect.
"We didn't cut a deal with Trump. We did it for our business," Fields told CNN's Poppy Harlow in an exclusive interview Tuesday.
..."We didn't cut a deal with Trump. We did it for our business," Fields told CNN's Poppy Harlow in an exclusive interview Tuesday.
...Ford executives spoke with Trump and vice-president elect Mike Pence this morning. Just hours before the Ford announcement, Trump criticized GM (GM) for producing cars in Mexico.
How much do you wanna bet that Ford's narrative of how this went down unravels?
posted by futz at 9:34 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Ford (F) CEO Mark Fields said the investment is a "vote of confidence" in the pro-business environment being created by Donald Trump. However, he stressed Ford did not do any sort of special deal with the president-elect.
"We didn't cut a deal with Trump. We did it for our business," Fields told CNN's Poppy Harlow in an exclusive interview Tuesday.
..."We didn't cut a deal with Trump. We did it for our business," Fields told CNN's Poppy Harlow in an exclusive interview Tuesday.
...Ford executives spoke with Trump and vice-president elect Mike Pence this morning. Just hours before the Ford announcement, Trump criticized GM (GM) for producing cars in Mexico.
How much do you wanna bet that Ford's narrative of how this went down unravels?
posted by futz at 9:34 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Glad to be helping however I can, Sciatrix. I'm snowed-in and isolated for the winter so electronic awareness-spreading and organizing is the best way I can think of to contribute.
Montana's a fine state with mostly fine people. You can let your friend know that she has friends here.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:37 AM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Montana's a fine state with mostly fine people. You can let your friend know that she has friends here.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:37 AM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'll pass it on! I know she has appreciated hearing reminders of solidarity from other Texans; it's good to know that there's allies all over the country, narratives of "red state" and "Trumpian mandate" or no.
posted by sciatrix at 9:44 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 9:44 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Jack Abramoff, the disgraced former lobbyist whose felony crimes eventually helped lead to the creation of the independent Office of Congressional Ethics, ripped House Republicans for their move to gut the independent watchdog.
Ha!
posted by futz at 9:47 AM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
Ha!
posted by futz at 9:47 AM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
Megyn Kelly Is Said to Be Leaving Fox News for NBC
I have it on good authority that MSNBC is just the liberal version of Fox News, so I eagerly await Fox News' hiring of Melissa Harris-Perry.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:49 AM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
I have it on good authority that MSNBC is just the liberal version of Fox News, so I eagerly await Fox News' hiring of Melissa Harris-Perry.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:49 AM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
(And yes, I know NBC and MSNBC are different networks, but they share their on-air talent.)
posted by tonycpsu at 9:50 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by tonycpsu at 9:50 AM on January 3, 2017
Ford cancels Mexico plant. Will create 700 U.S. jobs in 'vote of confidence' in Trump
Ford placing a vote of confidence in an anti-Semitic autocrat who peddles in conspiracy theories? C'mon now, that seems a little too on-the-nose:
posted by zombieflanders at 10:06 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ford placing a vote of confidence in an anti-Semitic autocrat who peddles in conspiracy theories? C'mon now, that seems a little too on-the-nose:
Every year makes [Jews] more and more the controlling masters of the producers in a nation of one hundred and twenty millions; only a single great man, Ford, to their fury still maintains full independence.--Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
posted by zombieflanders at 10:06 AM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
The lack of Melissa Harris-Perry on the airwaves has made the past year very difficult.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
Is Trump just sitting in front of his Twitter and Fox News today?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:08 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:08 AM on January 3, 2017
> Is Trump just sitting in front of his Twitter and Fox News today?
The answer to this question is always "yes."
posted by tonycpsu at 10:11 AM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
The answer to this question is always "yes."
posted by tonycpsu at 10:11 AM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
As a Michiganian, may I say, Bleep you FordMoCo.
But what trumpinistas will recall:
trump creating 700 whole jobs at Ford
What they'll forget:
Obama saving all of GM and Chrysler.
posted by NorthernLite at 10:18 AM on January 3, 2017 [31 favorites]
But what trumpinistas will recall:
trump creating 700 whole jobs at Ford
What they'll forget:
Obama saving all of GM and Chrysler.
posted by NorthernLite at 10:18 AM on January 3, 2017 [31 favorites]
It sounds like these 700 jobs are likely part of Ford's announcement today that they'll be producing hybrid Mustangs, F-150s and other vehicles. Regardless of what's said that's not a decision you undertake in the period between the election and now. Even if it was, going big on hybrids doesn't strike me as the right reaction. If this had anything to do with Trump you'd expect the announcement to be about the cancellation of all of their non-ICE systems or something.
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:24 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:24 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Supreme Court nomination of Judge Merrick Garland died noon Tuesday, January 3rd, in the U.S. Senate following a protracted battle with unprecedented Republican obstruction. It was 293 days old.
.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:33 AM on January 3, 2017 [28 favorites]
.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:33 AM on January 3, 2017 [28 favorites]
New Trump-Themed Restaurant in Kurdistan Only Serves Bottom-Feeder Fish
If something else about the cartoonishly grimacing Trump on the restaurant’s sign looks familiar, that’s because his hair and eyebrows are the lightning bolt from the San Diego Chargers’ logo. Zawiti stole the whole image from a 2015 Uproxx story whose explicitly stated purpose at the time was to mock Trump’s failure to own an NFL franchise (it put “his name and face all over” every team’s logo).posted by kirkaracha at 10:36 AM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
...
For what it’s worth, the restaurant serves only one dish: a fried carp, which is an oily bottom-feeder.
The Supreme Court nomination of Judge Merrick Garland died noon Tuesday, January 3rd, in the U.S. Senate following a protracted battle with unprecedented Republican obstruction. It was 293 days old.
There was barely a battle, Democrats didn't make it a campaign issue at all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:37 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
There was barely a battle, Democrats didn't make it a campaign issue at all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:37 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh that guy is about to get sued bigly. Using Trumps name to brand a crappy business? that is his gig.
posted by ian1977 at 10:38 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by ian1977 at 10:38 AM on January 3, 2017
Go home, Thomas Frank, you're drunk:
The idea that Hillary Clinton ran a campaign of “triangulation” is an utterly absurd lie. Again, Clinton ran, very explicitly, the most left-wing economic campaign of any Democratic candidate in decades. She ran, explicitly and proudly, on (inter alia) a family leave plan, an increased minimum wage and better overtime rules, the Employee Free Choice Act, increased child care funding, Social Security increases, a public option for health care, and support for repealing the Hyde Amendment. The idea that this was really a conservative campaign because she occasionally mentioned that her husband ran surpluses is silly. And his examples give away the show — Clinton ran a centrist campaign, irrespective of her policy agenda, because convention delegates at events with open bars were encouraged to take Ubers? His ability to cherry pick to massage his narrative is remarkable. The slightest empty gesture to the economic populism by an extremely right-wing Republican campaign gets him excited, while on the other hand when the Democratic Party runs exactly the campaign he’s been urging them to run for time out of mind he focuses on some random less-than-trivia to argue that they haven’t changed at all.posted by tonycpsu at 10:48 AM on January 3, 2017 [28 favorites]
You can criticize Clinton’s messaging, although the idea that there’s One Magic Trick that Hillary Clinton could have used to get the media talking about policy rather than EMAILS! strikes me as absurd. And it’s certainly true that Clinton’s strategy of peeling off suburban Republican women was a failure, although it’s hard for Frank to criticize the campaign for that when he’s still arguing that Trump shattered the Republican coalition. But, in context, what’s important is that Clinton did not try to appeal to Republicans with policy trimming, but with attacks on Donald Trump’s character. This was ineffective tactics, but what it is not is Bill-Clinton style “triangulation.” Clinton’s core appeal was to the Democratic base.
To talk about “Clintonism” as a single thing that conflates the massively different campaigns of 1992/1996 and 2016 is, at best, pure bad faith. It misunderstands how politics works, but even leaving that aside Frank’s argument is just straightforwardly factually wrong. You can argue that the “real” Hillary Clinton is Bill Clinton circa 1996 and that’s how she would have governed, but that’s not Frank’s argument here. His argument is that Hillary Clinton ran in 2016 like Bill Clinton did in 1996, which could not possibly be more wrong.
Oh that guy is about to get sued bigly. Using Trumps name to brand a crappy business? that is his gig.
That's actually going to be a very interesting free speech test during the coming Administration, in part because Trump's public persona is associated with his businesses.
Arguably anything that doesn't risk real confusion with actual Trump enterprises is fair game.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:49 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
That's actually going to be a very interesting free speech test during the coming Administration, in part because Trump's public persona is associated with his businesses.
Arguably anything that doesn't risk real confusion with actual Trump enterprises is fair game.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:49 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
The NAACP is occupying Jeff Sessions' Mobile office.
posted by zachlipton at 10:50 AM on January 3, 2017 [38 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:50 AM on January 3, 2017 [38 favorites]
Megyn Kelly Is Said to Be Leaving Fox News for NBC
I can recall when some folks here were praising Kelly for her softening on Trumpism. As pointed out at the time, she wasn't turning on Trump. She was just improving her negotiating position for a new multi-million dollar contract.
Megyn Kelly will say whatever it takes that pays the most.
posted by JackFlash at 10:58 AM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
I can recall when some folks here were praising Kelly for her softening on Trumpism. As pointed out at the time, she wasn't turning on Trump. She was just improving her negotiating position for a new multi-million dollar contract.
Megyn Kelly will say whatever it takes that pays the most.
posted by JackFlash at 10:58 AM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
Other than the 391 days between Abe Fortas' resignation in May 1969 and Harry Blackmun’s swearing-in in June 1970, this is the longest Supreme Court vacancy since the late 1800s.
The reason it took so long for Blackmun is that Nixon waited over two months to nominate federal appeals court judge Clement Haynsworth, who was voted down by the Senate in November 1969. Nixon’s second pick, G. Harrold Carswell was also voted down by the Senate. Blackmun was his third pick.
As far as I can tell the Garland delay is the only time a nominee has ever not gotten a Senate hearing without their nomination being withdrawn. Most longer delays have been due to multiple nominees being either withdrawn or voted down.
And remember that, despite the Republicans' claim that they were acting on the previously nonexistent "principle" that the new president should choose, when it looked like Clinton was going to win the election they talked about giving Garland a hearing.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:03 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
The reason it took so long for Blackmun is that Nixon waited over two months to nominate federal appeals court judge Clement Haynsworth, who was voted down by the Senate in November 1969. Nixon’s second pick, G. Harrold Carswell was also voted down by the Senate. Blackmun was his third pick.
As far as I can tell the Garland delay is the only time a nominee has ever not gotten a Senate hearing without their nomination being withdrawn. Most longer delays have been due to multiple nominees being either withdrawn or voted down.
And remember that, despite the Republicans' claim that they were acting on the previously nonexistent "principle" that the new president should choose, when it looked like Clinton was going to win the election they talked about giving Garland a hearing.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:03 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
@thehill
Rand Paul urges Republicans not to repeal ObamaCare before approving a replacement: http://hill.cm/ScrZh6A
posted by chris24 at 11:11 AM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Rand Paul urges Republicans not to repeal ObamaCare before approving a replacement: http://hill.cm/ScrZh6A
posted by chris24 at 11:11 AM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
"Paul floated replacing ObamaCare with "freedom," including saving money in a health savings account and buying insurance across state lines."
Replacing healthcare with "freedom" is the most libertarian idea ever.
posted by diogenes at 11:15 AM on January 3, 2017 [34 favorites]
Replacing healthcare with "freedom" is the most libertarian idea ever.
posted by diogenes at 11:15 AM on January 3, 2017 [34 favorites]
And remember that, despite the Republicans' claim that they were acting on the previously nonexistent "principle" that the new president should choose, when it looked like Clinton was going to win the election they talked about giving Garland a hearing.
No conservative argument is ever made in good faith and we should stop pretending they are. Their only principal is whatever gains them maximum power.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:33 AM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
No conservative argument is ever made in good faith and we should stop pretending they are. Their only principal is whatever gains them maximum power.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:33 AM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
Daily Beast: The Loud, Empty Word That Defines President-Elect Trump
As researchers in Carnegie Mellon University's Language Technologies Institute (LTI), have noted, throughout the campaign he lagged behind his fellow Republican hopefuls and his Democratic opponents in terms of both lexical level and grammar. He speaks on a sixth grade level but makes it only about halfway through fifth grade in terms of grammar. His word choice—the so-called lexical level—is as picked over as a rack at a sample sale late in the day.
The tide [is] so low it is inevitable the shoals would show. And from the toxic, batshit-racist, bullshit pool of his, there is one that keeps bobbing to the surface: the word “very.”
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:35 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
As researchers in Carnegie Mellon University's Language Technologies Institute (LTI), have noted, throughout the campaign he lagged behind his fellow Republican hopefuls and his Democratic opponents in terms of both lexical level and grammar. He speaks on a sixth grade level but makes it only about halfway through fifth grade in terms of grammar. His word choice—the so-called lexical level—is as picked over as a rack at a sample sale late in the day.
The tide [is] so low it is inevitable the shoals would show. And from the toxic, batshit-racist, bullshit pool of his, there is one that keeps bobbing to the surface: the word “very.”
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:35 AM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
And The Guardian's list of 10 other appropriate songs is great:
Not bad. I'd have gone with Cohen's Democracy ("is coming / to the USA") rather than Hallelujah, and Steve Earle's City of Immigrants sprang to mind immediately. Ani Di Franco's Amendment is probably a bit too raw for our side, right now (" know what you're thinking / That's just redundant / Chicks got it good now / They can almost be president"), but it's going to be on my playlist for Kamala Harris' inauguration, inshallah.
posted by Pink Frost at 11:39 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not bad. I'd have gone with Cohen's Democracy ("is coming / to the USA") rather than Hallelujah, and Steve Earle's City of Immigrants sprang to mind immediately. Ani Di Franco's Amendment is probably a bit too raw for our side, right now (" know what you're thinking / That's just redundant / Chicks got it good now / They can almost be president"), but it's going to be on my playlist for Kamala Harris' inauguration, inshallah.
posted by Pink Frost at 11:39 AM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Bill and Hillary Clinton Will Attend the Trump Inauguration
YOU KNOW WHAT.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:40 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
YOU KNOW WHAT.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:40 AM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
"decided to do so out of a sense of duty and respect for the American democratic process."
Normalizing Trump undermines the American democratic process.
posted by diogenes at 11:47 AM on January 3, 2017 [28 favorites]
Normalizing Trump undermines the American democratic process.
posted by diogenes at 11:47 AM on January 3, 2017 [28 favorites]
Bush, Carter, and (I think) Obama were already attending so they probably felt it would look odd if they didn't.
posted by asteria at 11:56 AM on January 3, 2017
posted by asteria at 11:56 AM on January 3, 2017
The living former Presidents should wear all black in symbolic mourning.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:03 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:03 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Someone made actual toilet paper with North Carolina’s anti-transgender bathroom law printed on it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:05 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:05 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Clinton and Obama are about the only people who in certain areas have to maintain norms so that liberal American democracy exists as something worth preserving. The rest of us need to keep fighting Trump tooth and nail. If Clinton or Obama tear down norms and institutions in their current roles, there's really not much left to fight for.
posted by chris24 at 12:06 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 12:06 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
Clinton and Obama are about the only people who in certain areas have to maintain norms so that liberal American democracy exists as something worth preserving.
There is no scenario where "maintaining a norm" involves Clinton showing up for Trump's inauguration.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:07 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
There is no scenario where "maintaining a norm" involves Clinton showing up for Trump's inauguration.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:07 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
Just came across an amusing Trump excerpt from his Senate testimony on the UN renovations. (Around 1h58m. transcript.):
...if you do not have an architect even hired yet because the last one ripped you off or did whatever he did--that guy is unbelievable. I mean this guy, I want to meet him. I can learn from that guy. So you have a man that got paid $27 million that you are not going to use.posted by Coventry at 12:15 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Clinton and Obama are about the only people who in certain areas have to maintain norms so that liberal American democracy exists as something worth preserving.
Oh, FFS. John Adams skipped out on Jefferson's inauguration, and his son did the same for Jackson. Let's not start to make this out to be a time-honored tradition that must be solemnly followed lest the government collapse upon itself.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:16 PM on January 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
Oh, FFS. John Adams skipped out on Jefferson's inauguration, and his son did the same for Jackson. Let's not start to make this out to be a time-honored tradition that must be solemnly followed lest the government collapse upon itself.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:16 PM on January 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
Idk if the dipshit brigade out in the crowd starts up with "lock her up!" and she stares Trump down until he flinches in front of the world it'll be worth it.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:16 PM on January 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 12:16 PM on January 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
The likelihood of that fantasy scenario happening is probably less than that of her actually being locked up.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Megyn Kelly will say whatever it takes that pays the most.
The New Republic doesn't pull any punches:
I know it's old news that nobody cares about, but has anyone beside the NY Times reviewer read her book and followed up with this question?
posted by peeedro at 12:23 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
The New Republic doesn't pull any punches:
Megyn Kelly’s transformation from race-baiting Fox News host to mainstream TV personality is now complete.On Tuesday, The New York Times reported that NBC had hired Kelly in a wide-ranging role: She will host a daytime talk show and a Sunday night show focused on politics, and will play a role in the network’s coverage of major events, both political and otherwise. It’s a big change for Kelly, who blazed up the ranks at Fox News by claiming that Santa Claus was definitely white and that the New Black Panther Party was the biggest threat to American democracy since World War II and that Sandra Bland’s death was her own fault. By 2016, she was hosting her own show, where she continued to race-bait, and became a significant player in the Republican primary, after Donald Trump made sexist comments about her and refused to attend a Republican debate rather than face her.I've been wondering about that book that she put out, the one that seemed to claim that Trump knew about debate questions before the republican primaries:
Then, the day before the first presidential debate, Mr. Trump was in a lather again, Ms. Kelly writes. He called Fox executives, saying he’d heard that her first question “was a very pointed question directed at him.” This disconcerted her, because it was true: It was about his history of using disparaging language about women.But after the NY Times review Kelly tweeted to clarify: "For the record, my book ‘Settle for More’ does not suggest Trump had any debate Qs in advance, nor do I believe that he did."
I know it's old news that nobody cares about, but has anyone beside the NY Times reviewer read her book and followed up with this question?
posted by peeedro at 12:23 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
The President-Elect of the US Is Whining Again on Twitter About a Photo of Himself He Doesn’t Like
It sure would be mean for people to keep publishing unflattering pictures of Trump. It might hurt his feelings.
And c'mon Uproxx, "Photo of Himself"? Pretty sure it's not a selfie.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:27 PM on January 3, 2017
It sure would be mean for people to keep publishing unflattering pictures of Trump. It might hurt his feelings.
And c'mon Uproxx, "Photo of Himself"? Pretty sure it's not a selfie.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:27 PM on January 3, 2017
If people want to get pissed at the Clintons, go ahead. I'm not. Given their roles as former president and losing candidate, I think respecting American democracy and the results of an election is a reasonable response from them at this moment. Her fighting his legitimacy at inauguration comes across as sore-loserism and anti-democratic partisanship that gives him an excuse to dismiss all of it and an opening to expand on it in 2020. The American people need to fight his legitimacy.
posted by chris24 at 12:34 PM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 12:34 PM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
comes across as sore-loserism and anti-democratic partisanship that gives him an excuse to dismiss all of it and opening to expand on it in 2020. The American people need to fight his legitimacy.
I'm pretty sure that Donald's twitter feed comes off as the sore-winner-or-whatever. Clinton showing up for the inauguration is just disgusting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:36 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure that Donald's twitter feed comes off as the sore-winner-or-whatever. Clinton showing up for the inauguration is just disgusting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:36 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Woof that profile pic is one terrible picture. I have saved it...just in case I need it for something.
In re: Clintons' attendance. Eh, I think she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. Some might think it a cowardly act to skulk at home. Also he won, she lost and she undoubtedly is trying to act like a good loser, with dignity and grace. I imagine she and Bill agonized and decided this was the right thing to do. I'm not going to criticize her.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:36 PM on January 3, 2017 [18 favorites]
In re: Clintons' attendance. Eh, I think she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. Some might think it a cowardly act to skulk at home. Also he won, she lost and she undoubtedly is trying to act like a good loser, with dignity and grace. I imagine she and Bill agonized and decided this was the right thing to do. I'm not going to criticize her.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:36 PM on January 3, 2017 [18 favorites]
The American people need to fight his legitimacy.
They also need leaders to fight his legitimacy, like the entire Republican party did to Obama from Day 1.
Not showing up to the Coronation of the Orange Reich is small potatoes, but showing up completes the normalization entirely.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:37 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
They also need leaders to fight his legitimacy, like the entire Republican party did to Obama from Day 1.
Not showing up to the Coronation of the Orange Reich is small potatoes, but showing up completes the normalization entirely.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:37 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't get why Hillary is being held to a standard that Bill, the Carters, and the Bushes aren't.
posted by asteria at 12:38 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by asteria at 12:38 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
I don't get why Hillary is being held to a standard that Bill, the Carters, and the Bushes aren't.
They should all be held to the "don't go" standard.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
They should all be held to the "don't go" standard.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
Can I suggest that everyone who wants to argue about this inauguration attendance shit take the time they would have spent typing a comment and instead use it to call their Senator about a cabinet appointment. Pick anyone, there is a veritable smorgasbord of deplorables to choose from.
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [28 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [28 favorites]
Well, Carter caved first. And once he did it became less "principled objection" and more "who is a sore loser?"
posted by asteria at 12:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by asteria at 12:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
My thinking is, you want to heap coals of scorn on her head-- go right ahead. She has a strong neck from years of experience.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Her fighting his legitimacy at inauguration comes across as sore-loserism and anti-democratic partisanship that gives him an excuse to dismiss all of it and opening to expand on it in 2020. The American people need to fight his legitimacy.
The problem with this is that it makes me less likely to fight. I find myself looking to Obama and Clinton for some direction. I sometimes think that Trump is such a danger that it's irresponsible of me not to go and protest in the street. But then Obama and Clinton's actions indicate that it's more important to respect institutions and norms than to fight tooth and nail, and I wonder if I'm wrong. I wish they would fight so I would have an example to follow. And when they don't fight, I think maybe that's the example I should follow.
posted by diogenes at 12:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
The problem with this is that it makes me less likely to fight. I find myself looking to Obama and Clinton for some direction. I sometimes think that Trump is such a danger that it's irresponsible of me not to go and protest in the street. But then Obama and Clinton's actions indicate that it's more important to respect institutions and norms than to fight tooth and nail, and I wonder if I'm wrong. I wish they would fight so I would have an example to follow. And when they don't fight, I think maybe that's the example I should follow.
posted by diogenes at 12:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Can I suggest that everyone who wants to argue about this inauguration attendance shit take the time they would have spent typing a comment and instead use it to call their Senator about a cabinet appointment. Pick anyone, there is a veritable smorgasbord of deplorables to choose from.\
It's possible to be upset about more than one thing at once.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:43 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's possible to be upset about more than one thing at once.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:43 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
call their Senator about a cabinet appointment
I'm confident that Elizabeth Warren and I are on the same page.
posted by diogenes at 12:45 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm confident that Elizabeth Warren and I are on the same page.
posted by diogenes at 12:45 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
democratic leadership in a nutshell
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:46 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:46 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't get why Hillary is being held to a standard that Bill, the Carters, and the Bushes aren't.
Or, say, any other candidate for president, during the campaign?
I truly wish I did not understand why there is a different standard. 2016 burned any remaining idealism I had on that front.
posted by Dashy at 12:46 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
WikiLeaks founder: Obama admin trying to ‘delegitimize' Trump
Well, Julian, if it does delegitimize Trump, it seems pretty clear that follows because of the true connections behind his campaign. Can't blame the messenger, right?
(Also: people in politics are trying to change the perception of other people in politics by revealing information? I'm sure you're shocked, just shocked, Mr. Transparency. And speaking of which, you're looking ever more transparent yourself.)
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:47 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Well, Julian, if it does delegitimize Trump, it seems pretty clear that follows because of the true connections behind his campaign. Can't blame the messenger, right?
(Also: people in politics are trying to change the perception of other people in politics by revealing information? I'm sure you're shocked, just shocked, Mr. Transparency. And speaking of which, you're looking ever more transparent yourself.)
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:47 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
We need to stop looking Obama and HRC for guidance. Unless they both decide to take their careers in very unexpected directions (which, hey, maybe?), they are done politically.
In fact, we probably shouldn't be looking to elected officials at all since they will have to work with Republicans and even Trump on occasion. This one of those times when its good to remember the difference between politicians and activists. Politicians have to compromise, if only on the symbolic gestures. Activists never do. There is room for both but it will be the latter group leading any resistance.
posted by asteria at 12:48 PM on January 3, 2017 [20 favorites]
In fact, we probably shouldn't be looking to elected officials at all since they will have to work with Republicans and even Trump on occasion. This one of those times when its good to remember the difference between politicians and activists. Politicians have to compromise, if only on the symbolic gestures. Activists never do. There is room for both but it will be the latter group leading any resistance.
posted by asteria at 12:48 PM on January 3, 2017 [20 favorites]
It's possible to be upset about more than one thing at once.
It sure is (for example right now I am upset about Betsy DeVos, sexist double standards, AND the liberal circular firing squad). I just like to direct that emotion toward action whenever possible.
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:49 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
It sure is (for example right now I am upset about Betsy DeVos, sexist double standards, AND the liberal circular firing squad). I just like to direct that emotion toward action whenever possible.
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:49 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
The problem with this is that it makes me less likely to fight.
Then you would have found some other excuse not to fight sooner or later.
Grassroots activism works. Don't wait for someone else to give you a reason.
posted by krinklyfig at 12:50 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
Then you would have found some other excuse not to fight sooner or later.
Grassroots activism works. Don't wait for someone else to give you a reason.
posted by krinklyfig at 12:50 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
> We need to stop looking Obama and HRC for guidance. Unless they both decide to take their careers in very unexpected directions (which, hey, maybe?), they are done politically.
Clinton, yes, she's probably done. Obama? He's young, and he's said repeatedly that he plans to stay involved. Why shouldn't we believe him?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:51 PM on January 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
Clinton, yes, she's probably done. Obama? He's young, and he's said repeatedly that he plans to stay involved. Why shouldn't we believe him?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:51 PM on January 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
House GOP reverses course on gutting ethics panel
Following a public outcry, and tweeted criticism from President-elect Donald Trump, House Republicans reversed course Tuesday on a proposal to gut their own ethics watchdog.
House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) called an emergency House GOP conference Tuesday around noon to scrap a proposed House rule that would have effectively declawed the Office of Congressional Ethics.
posted by futz at 12:58 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Following a public outcry, and tweeted criticism from President-elect Donald Trump, House Republicans reversed course Tuesday on a proposal to gut their own ethics watchdog.
House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) called an emergency House GOP conference Tuesday around noon to scrap a proposed House rule that would have effectively declawed the Office of Congressional Ethics.
posted by futz at 12:58 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'm sure Obama will still have projects, just like Hillary will, but I don't know if he's any more ready to go all La Resistance.
posted by asteria at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017
posted by asteria at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017
futz: I've replied to several news tweets who also credited Trump with the House GOP reversing course. (a) He didn't criticize the act, he criticized the timing. (b) He tweeted long after decisions had been made.
Freakin' news jockeys.
posted by XtinaS at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Freakin' news jockeys.
posted by XtinaS at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
President George H. W. Bush & First Lady Barbara Bush are "simply not able to attend" Trump's inauguration due to their age, spokesman says.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
We need to stop looking Obama and HRC for guidance. Unless they both decide to take their careers in very unexpected directions (which, hey, maybe?), they are done politically.
In fact, we probably shouldn't be looking to elected officials at all since they will have to work with Republicans and even Trump on occasion. This one of those times when its good to remember the difference between politicians and activists. Politicians have to compromise, if only on the symbolic gestures. Activists never do. There is room for both but it will be the latter group leading any resistance.
I agree with this almost 100% but with tonycpsu's footnote. One thing for sure is don't look to Chuck Schumer because I guaran-damn-tee you he will disappoint. The NAACP though is doing great work, especially here in NC, and I am hoping that Keith Ellison will be an inspiring leader once he takes the DNC chair.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
In fact, we probably shouldn't be looking to elected officials at all since they will have to work with Republicans and even Trump on occasion. This one of those times when its good to remember the difference between politicians and activists. Politicians have to compromise, if only on the symbolic gestures. Activists never do. There is room for both but it will be the latter group leading any resistance.
I agree with this almost 100% but with tonycpsu's footnote. One thing for sure is don't look to Chuck Schumer because I guaran-damn-tee you he will disappoint. The NAACP though is doing great work, especially here in NC, and I am hoping that Keith Ellison will be an inspiring leader once he takes the DNC chair.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:00 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
Babs would snatch the wig right off of Trump's head for what he did to Jeb. You know it.
posted by asteria at 1:09 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by asteria at 1:09 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Reuters has some background on that Chevy Cruz kerfuffle: Trump assails GM over car production in Mexico, threatens tax
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:12 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
"General Motors is sending Mexican made model of Chevy Cruze to U.S. car dealers-tax free across border. Make in U.S.A. or pay big border tax!" Trump said in a post on Twitter.This is a preview of the next 4 years. American Corporations are going to have to be on a DJT twitter alert 24/7 ready with a rapid PR response.
GM, the world's No. 3 automaker, said it sold about 190,000 Cruze cars in the United States in 2016. All of the sedan versions sold in the United States, or about 185,500, were built at its plant in Lordstown, Ohio. About 4,500 hatchback versions of the Cruze were assembled in Mexico and sold in the United States.
"GM builds the Chevrolet Cruze hatchback for global markets in Mexico, with a small number sold in the U.S." it said in a statement posed on its website.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:12 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Dems Take Photos on House Floor to Protest Proposed GOP Fine
✊ fuckyeahdems.tumblr.com ✊
posted by tonycpsu at 1:17 PM on January 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
✊ fuckyeahdems.tumblr.com ✊
posted by tonycpsu at 1:17 PM on January 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
Man who wants to start that tumblr I would read the shit out of that
posted by supercrayon at 1:25 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by supercrayon at 1:25 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Marie Claire: Rockette Management Tells Dancers to "Tolerate Intolerance"
posted by tonycpsu at 1:27 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 1:27 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Treasury Nominee Steve Mnuchin’s Bank Accused of “Widespread Misconduct” in Leaked Memo
ONEWEST BANK, which Donald Trump’s treasury secretary nominee Steven Mnuchin ran from 2009 to 2015, repeatedly broke California’s foreclosure laws during that period, according to a previously undisclosed 2013 memo from top prosecutors in the state attorney general’s office.
The memo obtained by The Intercept alleges that OneWest rushed delinquent homeowners out of their homes by violating notice and waiting period statutes, illegally backdated key documents, and effectively gamed foreclosure auctions.
In the memo, the leaders of the state attorney general’s Consumer Law Section said they had “uncovered evidence suggestive of widespread misconduct” in a yearlong investigation. In a detailed 22-page request, they identified over a thousand legal violations in the small subsection of OneWest loans they were able to examine, and they recommended that Attorney General Kamala Harris file a civil enforcement action against the Pasadena-based bank. They even wrote up a sample legal complaint, seeking injunctive relief and millions of dollars in penalties.
But Harris’s office, without any explanation, declined to prosecute the case.
...So why didn’t Kamala Harris leap at the chance to take on a bank that her staff said was illegally rushing Californians out of their homes? Why did she reject a case that her office had already spent significant resources on during a year of line-level investigation?
Very interesting read.
posted by futz at 1:31 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
ONEWEST BANK, which Donald Trump’s treasury secretary nominee Steven Mnuchin ran from 2009 to 2015, repeatedly broke California’s foreclosure laws during that period, according to a previously undisclosed 2013 memo from top prosecutors in the state attorney general’s office.
The memo obtained by The Intercept alleges that OneWest rushed delinquent homeowners out of their homes by violating notice and waiting period statutes, illegally backdated key documents, and effectively gamed foreclosure auctions.
In the memo, the leaders of the state attorney general’s Consumer Law Section said they had “uncovered evidence suggestive of widespread misconduct” in a yearlong investigation. In a detailed 22-page request, they identified over a thousand legal violations in the small subsection of OneWest loans they were able to examine, and they recommended that Attorney General Kamala Harris file a civil enforcement action against the Pasadena-based bank. They even wrote up a sample legal complaint, seeking injunctive relief and millions of dollars in penalties.
But Harris’s office, without any explanation, declined to prosecute the case.
...So why didn’t Kamala Harris leap at the chance to take on a bank that her staff said was illegally rushing Californians out of their homes? Why did she reject a case that her office had already spent significant resources on during a year of line-level investigation?
Very interesting read.
posted by futz at 1:31 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
He's young, and he's said repeatedly that he plans to stay involved. Why shouldn't we believe him?
I believe his intent, I just believe that that he's not the leader we need, that we'll get more tepid moments like his last press conference that assume a better country and Republican party than we have. Maybe if he specifically focuses on voter rights and gerrymandering, he have some efficacy, but mostly I foresee him mostly sidelined watching the man that spent 8 years assailing him and calling him a foreigner dismantle almost all of his good legacy while exploiting the bad (such as the expansion of surveillance and drone strikes).
I'd love to be proven wrong.
posted by Candleman at 1:49 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I believe his intent, I just believe that that he's not the leader we need, that we'll get more tepid moments like his last press conference that assume a better country and Republican party than we have. Maybe if he specifically focuses on voter rights and gerrymandering, he have some efficacy, but mostly I foresee him mostly sidelined watching the man that spent 8 years assailing him and calling him a foreigner dismantle almost all of his good legacy while exploiting the bad (such as the expansion of surveillance and drone strikes).
I'd love to be proven wrong.
posted by Candleman at 1:49 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Something elsewhere just pointed out to me why I've been taking the beginning of the Trump Era so well... “Pessimism Is the Cure for Anger”. Ever since I first saw Mel Brooks' "The Twelve Chairs", I've taken to heart the 'Russian philosophy' in its opening musical number: "Hope For The Best, Expect The Worst". As one whose Medicare may be endangered by the Ryan schemes, I'm looking at the fact that I am covered for 2017 and working on dealing with my major health issues NOW. Resignation should never be a substitute for Activism, but a Realism that requires you to choose your battles carefully. California's "liberal supermajority" certainly seems to have the right approach.
I saw the headline for that better-than-usual summary from the Ass Press in my local dead-tree paper but couldn't find it on their website; a Google search for the headline's words showed it in the online presence of tons of Nowhere-Near-California local media.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:52 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
I saw the headline for that better-than-usual summary from the Ass Press in my local dead-tree paper but couldn't find it on their website; a Google search for the headline's words showed it in the online presence of tons of Nowhere-Near-California local media.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:52 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
About 4,500 hatchback versions of the Cruze were assembled in Mexico and sold in the United States.
There's something headdeskingly idiotic about this. Are GM and Ford meant to price themselves out of the market in Mexico and Central America? (FWIW, the Cruze factory in Mexico replaced a production line in... South Korea.)
posted by holgate at 1:54 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
There's something headdeskingly idiotic about this. Are GM and Ford meant to price themselves out of the market in Mexico and Central America? (FWIW, the Cruze factory in Mexico replaced a production line in... South Korea.)
posted by holgate at 1:54 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Something's been gnawing at me about Nixon and nukes - so I dug it out from a 2000 book review in the Guardian. If he didn't order a strike on North Korea while drunk, there are those who think he did.
"If the president had his way," Kissinger growled to aides more than once, "there would be a nuclear war each week!" This may not have been an idle jest. The CIA's top Vietnam specialist, George Carver, reportedly said that in 1969, when the North Koreans shot down a US spy plane, "Nixon became incensed and ordered a tactical nuclear strike... The Joint Chiefs were alerted and asked to recommend targets, but Kissinger got on the phone to them. They agreed not to do anything until Nixon sobered up in the morning."
posted by Devonian at 1:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [22 favorites]
"If the president had his way," Kissinger growled to aides more than once, "there would be a nuclear war each week!" This may not have been an idle jest. The CIA's top Vietnam specialist, George Carver, reportedly said that in 1969, when the North Koreans shot down a US spy plane, "Nixon became incensed and ordered a tactical nuclear strike... The Joint Chiefs were alerted and asked to recommend targets, but Kissinger got on the phone to them. They agreed not to do anything until Nixon sobered up in the morning."
posted by Devonian at 1:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [22 favorites]
This is a preview of the next 4 years. American Corporations are going to have to be on a DJT twitter alert 24/7 ready with a rapid PR response.
I can see a lot of companies getting downright wistful for the comfortable, stable embrace of regulations.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
I can see a lot of companies getting downright wistful for the comfortable, stable embrace of regulations.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments deleted. Let's just skip this "what does Coventry think about the Clintons" thing.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
Exclusive: Trump team seeks agency records on border barriers, surveillance: In a wide-ranging request for documents and analysis, President-elect Donald Trump's transition team asked the Department of Homeland Security last month to assess all assets available for border wall and barrier construction.
The team also asked about the department's capacity for expanding immigrant detention and about an aerial surveillance program that was scaled back by the Obama administration but remains popular with immigration hardliners. And it asked whether federal workers have altered biographic information kept by the department about immigrants out of concern for their civil liberties.
The transition team also asked for copies of every executive order and directive sent to immigration agents since Obama took office in 2009, according to the memo summarizing the meeting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
The team also asked about the department's capacity for expanding immigrant detention and about an aerial surveillance program that was scaled back by the Obama administration but remains popular with immigration hardliners. And it asked whether federal workers have altered biographic information kept by the department about immigrants out of concern for their civil liberties.
The transition team also asked for copies of every executive order and directive sent to immigration agents since Obama took office in 2009, according to the memo summarizing the meeting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Marie Claire: Rockette Management Tells Dancers to "Tolerate Intolerance"
We know that Trump will be a dictator because dictatorship is the mode of American business.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 2:24 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
We know that Trump will be a dictator because dictatorship is the mode of American business.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 2:24 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
diogenes: Replacing healthcare with "freedom" is the most libertarian idea ever.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose
posted by filthy light thief at 2:29 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose
posted by filthy light thief at 2:29 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Updated for 2016, the lyric should be "Freedom is just another word for what do you have to lose?"
posted by peeedro at 2:39 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 2:39 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Marie Claire: Rockette Management Tells Dancers to "Tolerate Intolerance"
"Rockette management" in this case is James Dolan. His uncle Paul Dolan owns the baseball team in Cleveland, a team whose logo is a fire-engine-red caricature of a grinning Native American. "Tolerating intolerance" is something of a family tradition, it seems.
posted by compartment at 2:45 PM on January 3, 2017 [31 favorites]
"Rockette management" in this case is James Dolan. His uncle Paul Dolan owns the baseball team in Cleveland, a team whose logo is a fire-engine-red caricature of a grinning Native American. "Tolerating intolerance" is something of a family tradition, it seems.
posted by compartment at 2:45 PM on January 3, 2017 [31 favorites]
What’s the Biggest Test Trump Will Face in 2017?
In less than three weeks’ time, Donald Trump will be sworn in as president. What are the biggest challenges that await him? At the dawn of a new year and new presidency, we asked 20 top thinkers in various fields. Here’s what they said.posted by kirkaracha at 2:57 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Teach, Organize, Resist is a movement out of UCLA that is trying to organize a national teach-in on January 18th (#J18)
posted by Rumple at 3:04 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 3:04 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
What’s the Biggest Test Trump Will Face in 2017?
posted by jason_steakums at 3:22 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Beyond governance, there is a probability he will face the real threat of a major crisis generated from the use of a weapon of mass destruction—bio, cyber or nuclear—either within the United States or somewhere in the world. His test of leadership will be the quality of his response using all of the resources available to us under these tragic circumstances.wtf Tom Daschle don't say shit like that
posted by jason_steakums at 3:22 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Megyn Kelly Is Said to Be Leaving Fox News for NBC
As someone who watches the NBC evenings news and MSNBC when I want cable news, tell fox they can keep her
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:43 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Megyn should be avoidable, reportedly doing a "daytime show weekdays and a Sunday evening magazine show". I mean, who watches The Today Show or Dateline anymore anyway?
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:49 PM on January 3, 2017
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:49 PM on January 3, 2017
More than 70 years after Wendell Willkie wrote these words, a Republican president-elect is spurning long-held values and norms to argue that financial disclosure, clean elections and even support of our allies and the institutions of democracy are in effect optional extras in his crabbed vision of statecraft.
Elizabeth Borgwardt nails it in that politico piece.
posted by valkane at 4:03 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Elizabeth Borgwardt nails it in that politico piece.
posted by valkane at 4:03 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
futz: I've replied to several news tweets who also credited Trump with the House GOP reversing course. (a) He didn't criticize the act, he criticized the timing. (b) He tweeted long after decisions had been made.
Freakin' news jockeys.
XtinaS, Oh I know. It is incredibly irresponsible and infuriating.
posted by futz at 4:10 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Freakin' news jockeys.
XtinaS, Oh I know. It is incredibly irresponsible and infuriating.
posted by futz at 4:10 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Andrew J. Bacevich:
posted by kirkaracha at 4:16 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
President Trump’s greatest challenge, at least in the near term, will be “Donald Trump,” the provocateur with an apparent compulsion to offer off-the-cuff commentary on whatever happens to strike his fancy. If “Trump” gains access to the Oval Office, then the likelihood of the Trump administration being able to devise a coherent foreign policy reduces to about zero. Instead of formulating policy, administration officials will spend their time engaged in damage control, explaining that what “Trump” said yesterday or tweeted early this morning is not actually what the president means.The president needs to be held accountable for everything he says or tweets.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:16 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
DJT: I will be having a general news conference on JANUARY ELEVENTH in N.Y.C. Thank you.
Of course, Obama's Farewell address is the evening of the 10th.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Of course, Obama's Farewell address is the evening of the 10th.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump: I will be having a general news conference on JANUARY ELEVENTH in N.Y.C. Thank you.
I don't know why this made me laugh. Maybe it is the childish way he writes the date in all caps and then ends "Thank you." He should have ended it "Sad!" which has become his signature.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
I don't know why this made me laugh. Maybe it is the childish way he writes the date in all caps and then ends "Thank you." He should have ended it "Sad!" which has become his signature.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
The president needs to be held accountable for everything he says or tweets.
He's not even being held accountable for money he owes, which is a much more concrete thing in our society.
The fundraiser to pay his transition team's salaries has utterly convinced me that he is broke. When you have a billion dollars or so of assets but you also have a billion and a half dollars in debt, you are not a billionaire; you are a deadbeat. And when you are servicing the debt by finding bigger suckers overseas (Bernie Madoff must be so proud) you are a deadbeat grifter.
Like Madoff, Trump can only keep the illusion going as long as he can find new investors. Unlike Madoff he doesn't provide consistent returns and regularly rips people off, so its a somewhat different strategy even if the end result is inevitably the same. He will have a harder time finding investors because his reputation is so bad but he doesn't need to find as many of them because he doesn't provide the generous returns Madoff was reliably offering.
It could very well be the Republicans finally tiring of Trump's antics who will conduct the investigation that rips the veil open and lays bare the emperor's clothes-less state. He will have the power to coerce a lot of people with his Presidential power but it it will also be nakedly transparent when he does, and the money will be much easier to follow than it has been in Trump's private life. Some very smart, secretive, and paranoid people will be watching him and I don't see how he can take another large international personal loan while he's President. This means it could very well be the Presidency that makes his Ponzi scheme finally collapse. It's very obvious he didn't think through what it would actually mean to be President, what he'd be expected to do as well as able to do. So far he's bulled it through, but we aren't even anywhere near the inauguration yet, much less years into his term.
And the cracks are already showing in that solid wall of Republican cooperation we're used to seeing; taking back the gutting of the OCE demonstrates an uncharacteristic lack of spine. At least some of them must be getting worried about consequences.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:43 PM on January 3, 2017 [20 favorites]
He's not even being held accountable for money he owes, which is a much more concrete thing in our society.
The fundraiser to pay his transition team's salaries has utterly convinced me that he is broke. When you have a billion dollars or so of assets but you also have a billion and a half dollars in debt, you are not a billionaire; you are a deadbeat. And when you are servicing the debt by finding bigger suckers overseas (Bernie Madoff must be so proud) you are a deadbeat grifter.
Like Madoff, Trump can only keep the illusion going as long as he can find new investors. Unlike Madoff he doesn't provide consistent returns and regularly rips people off, so its a somewhat different strategy even if the end result is inevitably the same. He will have a harder time finding investors because his reputation is so bad but he doesn't need to find as many of them because he doesn't provide the generous returns Madoff was reliably offering.
It could very well be the Republicans finally tiring of Trump's antics who will conduct the investigation that rips the veil open and lays bare the emperor's clothes-less state. He will have the power to coerce a lot of people with his Presidential power but it it will also be nakedly transparent when he does, and the money will be much easier to follow than it has been in Trump's private life. Some very smart, secretive, and paranoid people will be watching him and I don't see how he can take another large international personal loan while he's President. This means it could very well be the Presidency that makes his Ponzi scheme finally collapse. It's very obvious he didn't think through what it would actually mean to be President, what he'd be expected to do as well as able to do. So far he's bulled it through, but we aren't even anywhere near the inauguration yet, much less years into his term.
And the cracks are already showing in that solid wall of Republican cooperation we're used to seeing; taking back the gutting of the OCE demonstrates an uncharacteristic lack of spine. At least some of them must be getting worried about consequences.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:43 PM on January 3, 2017 [20 favorites]
NYTimes Reports of Rockettes Inauguration Turmoil Cause Company to Lash Out
The Madison Square Garden Company accused Marie Claire magazine of behaving unethically on Tuesday, hours after the magazine published snippets from a meeting between a group of Rockettes and James L. Dolan, the company’s executive chairman. Many of the dancers had expressed concern over performing at Donald J. Trump’s inauguration.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:50 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The company, which manages the Rockettes, issued a statement from a spokesman, Barry Watkins, who said the magazine’s source had been “deceitful and cowardly” in secretly recording the Dec. 27 meeting. Mr. Watkins said Marie Clarie’s decision to publish was “beneath the ethical standards of Hearst,” the media company that owns the magazine.
The Guardian Trump hosted 'small-time mobster' Joey 'No Socks' Cinque at New Year's party
Trump’s relationship with Cinque is well documented on the company’s website, which includes videos featuring photographs of him with Trump posing with various awards over the past several years. One company video features a montage of photos set to Frank Sinatra hits, including one of Cinque posing with Trump and former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani in what appears to be a boardroom. The video also features photos with Bill Clinton, Muhammad Ali and a number of beauty pageant queens.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:54 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
When asked about him in May, Trump told the Associated Press that he did not know Cinque well and was not aware of Cinque’s reported criminal conviction.
“If a guy’s going to give you an award, you take it,” Trump said. “You don’t tend to look up his whole life story.”[...]
A New York Magazine profile from April 1995 described Cinque as a “small-time mobster, a scam artist and an art fence” who “used to be friends with John Gotti” – the former boss of the Gambino crime family.
I consider there are basically three major differences between Donald Trump and Bernie Madoff: (1) Trump's lifelong PR campaign, (2) Trump picked better victims (ones without the power to act against him) and (3) Trump is not Jewish.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:59 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Turmp's press conference on the 11th is the same day as Sessions schedule nomination hearing. How much coverage do you think cable news media will give to Democratic questioning of Racist Alabama Grandad?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:01 PM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:01 PM on January 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
This means it could very well be the Presidency that makes his Ponzi scheme finally collapse.
That would make me so happy, and it's within the realm of possibility, but I think it's more likely that the Presidency is going allow him to finally convert the Ponzi scheme into real wealth.
posted by diogenes at 5:07 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
That would make me so happy, and it's within the realm of possibility, but I think it's more likely that the Presidency is going allow him to finally convert the Ponzi scheme into real wealth.
posted by diogenes at 5:07 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
When you have a billion dollars or so of assets but you also have a billion and a half dollars in debt, you are not a billionaire; you are a deadbeat. And when you are servicing the debt by finding bigger suckers overseas (Bernie Madoff must be so proud) you are a deadbeat grifter.
Well obviously. The first thing a con artist does is convince the mark he doesn't NEED your money, because he has his own, but let's you think he'll TAKE your money, as a favor to you, just because his opportunity is so great for you.
posted by threeturtles at 5:12 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well obviously. The first thing a con artist does is convince the mark he doesn't NEED your money, because he has his own, but let's you think he'll TAKE your money, as a favor to you, just because his opportunity is so great for you.
posted by threeturtles at 5:12 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Turmp's press conference on the 11th is the same day as Sessions schedule nomination hearing. How much coverage do you think cable news media will give to Democratic questioning of Racist Alabama Grandad?
The Twitters are saying it's actually Rex Tillerson, but as I pointed out in the other thread, the press conference is a distraction either way, given that he's deliberately getting the press all wound up over press conferences.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:14 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Twitters are saying it's actually Rex Tillerson, but as I pointed out in the other thread, the press conference is a distraction either way, given that he's deliberately getting the press all wound up over press conferences.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:14 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Congressman's son dabs during official swearing-in photo, adults don't get what's happening
posted by futz at 5:15 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by futz at 5:15 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
yabba dabba do.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:17 PM on January 3, 2017
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:17 PM on January 3, 2017
@realDonaldTrump: The "Intelligence" briefing on so-called "Russian hacking" was delayed until Friday, perhaps more time needed to build a case. Very strange!
IF ONLY I HAD SOME SORT OF INSIGHT INTO THE CLASSIFIED WORKINGS OF THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT I AM ABOUT TO HEAD
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [29 favorites]
IF ONLY I HAD SOME SORT OF INSIGHT INTO THE CLASSIFIED WORKINGS OF THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT I AM ABOUT TO HEAD
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [29 favorites]
Yeah, what would some sort of confidential briefing, given to the president or soon-to-be, on classified intelligence matters even be called? That sort of thing doesn't just happen every day!
posted by mrgoat at 5:24 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by mrgoat at 5:24 PM on January 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
I imagine it's pretty tricky to put together an intelligence briefing when the findings implicate the person you have to brief.
(I don't know anything. Just hoping.)
posted by diogenes at 5:29 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
(I don't know anything. Just hoping.)
posted by diogenes at 5:29 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Imagine how delicate and complicated this situation would be if they had evidence of collusion with Trump. Especially if it involved human (rather than just signals) intelligence.
(I kind of want to fanfic this scenario.)
posted by diogenes at 5:36 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
(I kind of want to fanfic this scenario.)
posted by diogenes at 5:36 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
My Republican congressman is a lame duck so he betta don't
You guuuuuys, I'm so dumb- I didn't realize new representatives got sworn in today (figured it was the 20th)- my congressman is a Democrat now!!!!!! <3 <3 <3 <3
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:44 PM on January 3, 2017 [18 favorites]
You guuuuuys, I'm so dumb- I didn't realize new representatives got sworn in today (figured it was the 20th)- my congressman is a Democrat now!!!!!! <3 <3 <3 <3
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:44 PM on January 3, 2017 [18 favorites]
Mine is the same Democrat he was before and he had a really nice video he put on facebook about the civil rights he'll be fighting for if he has to.
posted by jessamyn at 5:52 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 5:52 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
I kind of want to fanfic this scenario.
That sounds very entertaining. You should do it.
posted by Coventry at 5:54 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
That sounds very entertaining. You should do it.
posted by Coventry at 5:54 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
This "Operation Overlord" to invade the so-called "Normandy beach" was delayed until June, perhaps to wait for favorable weather. Very strange!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:58 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:58 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Now I want to make an inauguration day mixtape with tracks like these.
I made one of my own a while ago. Maybe we should share them at some point - everyone's got so many good ideas.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:01 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I made one of my own a while ago. Maybe we should share them at some point - everyone's got so many good ideas.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:01 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Jonathan Chait: "Republicans loaded the entire weight of the failure of the last Republican-controlled government onto ethical shortcomings, then used the issue to regain power, and are now rapidly dismantling safeguards against corruption in the Executive and Legislative branches. The distinction between kleptocracy and conservatism matters enormously to conservatives when they have no political power. When they do have power, the distinction collapses. And so a new era of corruption begins."
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:04 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:04 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
but I think it's more likely that the Presidency is going allow him to finally convert the Ponzi scheme into real wealth.
That is a reasonable worry, but I think it's already showing that Trump didn't really know what he would be getting into if he actually won the election. I think his real plan was to use the election and campaign funding to convert at least part of his Ponzi scheme into real wealth, but it's very obvious he didn't have a plan for coping with winning the election at all.
And as President, Trump will be under a huge microscope. He isn't used to that at all, and it's obviously why he doesn't want to live at the White House or do any of that other Presidential stuff like give press conferences. He is probably salivating at the power he can wield over people who used to wield power over him, but he has to also realize that it will be very obvious when he does anything like that. I would give him three, maybe four obvious incidents of shaking another world leader down for his own personal gain and even the Republicans will turn on him. As with gutting the OCE, it will be too obvious. And Trump just doesn't do subtle.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:08 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
That is a reasonable worry, but I think it's already showing that Trump didn't really know what he would be getting into if he actually won the election. I think his real plan was to use the election and campaign funding to convert at least part of his Ponzi scheme into real wealth, but it's very obvious he didn't have a plan for coping with winning the election at all.
And as President, Trump will be under a huge microscope. He isn't used to that at all, and it's obviously why he doesn't want to live at the White House or do any of that other Presidential stuff like give press conferences. He is probably salivating at the power he can wield over people who used to wield power over him, but he has to also realize that it will be very obvious when he does anything like that. I would give him three, maybe four obvious incidents of shaking another world leader down for his own personal gain and even the Republicans will turn on him. As with gutting the OCE, it will be too obvious. And Trump just doesn't do subtle.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:08 PM on January 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
Neither did Dubz but he had a Cheney.
the ethical standards of Hearst
BWAAAHAHAhahahaaaaaaa! Aaah! Oh man. Rich.
posted by petebest at 6:22 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
the ethical standards of Hearst
BWAAAHAHAhahahaaaaaaa! Aaah! Oh man. Rich.
posted by petebest at 6:22 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Thinking on it a bit more, I think Trump himself willfully refuses to understand that have a billion / owe two problem. This seems to me to go back to the collapse of his Atlantic City casino empire, which happened entirely because he spent more than a grade school student who could read the market pages and do simple arithmetic would know was a good idea on building the Taj Mahal. He escaped from that trap by tapping his Dad for a few very illegal loans and then taking it public, putting the debt on investors who had no idea how upside-down the whole thing was from the beginning. And he has since done that again and again.
The thing is, having gone through the usual youthful period of owing more than I could afford to pay back, I understand that Trump's cockiness belies a fundamental insecurity, because when you are that upside down you don't really own anything. Thus his childish insistence on "billionaire" status, even though he barely has a billion in provable assets and provably has almost that much in liabilities. He has deeply plundered his own campaign for rent and fees to enrich himself while paying hardly anybody. And that was probably the actual original plan, before he went and won the election. Pump up his brand, grab a few tens of mil in campaign donations, on to the next mark.
But now he is actually trapped. Everything he does is going to be examined very closely by far more people than have ever watched him before. The high-rise in Buenos Aires which he seemed to have connived on his newfound power is already dead, mere weeks after being greenlighted by the Argentines, because of his conflicts of interest. It looks like he might effectively be shut off from non-US sources of funding, which must be a real pain for him because most of the legitimate US sources have already written him off as a bad risk.
I think one day the guy who hijacks deadbeat jet airplanes will be coming for his jet. Trump probably has it being guarded by armed goons 24/7 precisely because of that threat. But the goons will want to be paid too.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:23 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
The thing is, having gone through the usual youthful period of owing more than I could afford to pay back, I understand that Trump's cockiness belies a fundamental insecurity, because when you are that upside down you don't really own anything. Thus his childish insistence on "billionaire" status, even though he barely has a billion in provable assets and provably has almost that much in liabilities. He has deeply plundered his own campaign for rent and fees to enrich himself while paying hardly anybody. And that was probably the actual original plan, before he went and won the election. Pump up his brand, grab a few tens of mil in campaign donations, on to the next mark.
But now he is actually trapped. Everything he does is going to be examined very closely by far more people than have ever watched him before. The high-rise in Buenos Aires which he seemed to have connived on his newfound power is already dead, mere weeks after being greenlighted by the Argentines, because of his conflicts of interest. It looks like he might effectively be shut off from non-US sources of funding, which must be a real pain for him because most of the legitimate US sources have already written him off as a bad risk.
I think one day the guy who hijacks deadbeat jet airplanes will be coming for his jet. Trump probably has it being guarded by armed goons 24/7 precisely because of that threat. But the goons will want to be paid too.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:23 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Nothing like the PEOTUS warring with his own intelligence community to defend Russia.
@AriMelber Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Now: Senior US intelligence official tells NBC News briefing was "always" scheduled for Friday, Trump incorrect, per @KenDilanianNBC
posted by chris24 at 6:32 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
@AriMelber Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Now: Senior US intelligence official tells NBC News briefing was "always" scheduled for Friday, Trump incorrect, per @KenDilanianNBC
posted by chris24 at 6:32 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
@BraddJaffy Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Schumer, when shown this Trump tweet by @maddow: "you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday to get back at you"
posted by chris24 at 6:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Schumer, when shown this Trump tweet by @maddow: "you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday to get back at you"
posted by chris24 at 6:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Flashback to August 2016: "Fox News: Many in the Intelligence Community 'Fear' a Hillary Presidency"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
So many thin skinned cry babies running around DC.
GOP Bill Would Ban Supreme Court From Citing Its Own Obamacare Cases
Rep. Steve King (R-IA) hates Obamacare so much that he doesn't even want the Supreme Court to cite its own major Obamacare cases in future opinions, according to a bill he introduced Tuesday.
The bill itself list the names of major lawsuits the Affordable Care Act has faced at the Supreme Court and bars them "from citation for the purpose of precedence in all future cases."
"It was my first order of business on the morning after ObamaCare passed into law, March 24, 2010, to draft and introduce my full, 100% repeal of ObamaCare," King said in a press release announcing the legislation. "By prohibiting the Supreme Court from citing ObamaCare cases, we will be truly eradicating this unconstitutional policy from all three branches of government so that the repeal will be complete."
The bill claims that "Under Article 3, Section 2" Congress is allowed to "to provide exceptions and regulations for Supreme Court consideration of cases and controversies."
The proposal had the health care law world "chuckling," according to Timothy Jost, a health law specialist at the Washington and Lee University.
"He obviously hasn't read these opinions," Jost said. He pointed to National Federation of Independent Businesses v. Sebelius, which Jost said "contained very strong statements about state rights;" King v. Burwell, which "included language in which the court basically limited deference to administrative agencies;" and Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, which "was all about religious liberty."
"These are three precedents that one would think Representative King would affirm very strongly," Jost said.
posted by futz at 6:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
GOP Bill Would Ban Supreme Court From Citing Its Own Obamacare Cases
Rep. Steve King (R-IA) hates Obamacare so much that he doesn't even want the Supreme Court to cite its own major Obamacare cases in future opinions, according to a bill he introduced Tuesday.
The bill itself list the names of major lawsuits the Affordable Care Act has faced at the Supreme Court and bars them "from citation for the purpose of precedence in all future cases."
"It was my first order of business on the morning after ObamaCare passed into law, March 24, 2010, to draft and introduce my full, 100% repeal of ObamaCare," King said in a press release announcing the legislation. "By prohibiting the Supreme Court from citing ObamaCare cases, we will be truly eradicating this unconstitutional policy from all three branches of government so that the repeal will be complete."
The bill claims that "Under Article 3, Section 2" Congress is allowed to "to provide exceptions and regulations for Supreme Court consideration of cases and controversies."
The proposal had the health care law world "chuckling," according to Timothy Jost, a health law specialist at the Washington and Lee University.
"He obviously hasn't read these opinions," Jost said. He pointed to National Federation of Independent Businesses v. Sebelius, which Jost said "contained very strong statements about state rights;" King v. Burwell, which "included language in which the court basically limited deference to administrative agencies;" and Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, which "was all about religious liberty."
"These are three precedents that one would think Representative King would affirm very strongly," Jost said.
posted by futz at 6:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
It looks like he might effectively be shut off from non-US sources of funding
Putin knows a sure thing when he sees it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:47 PM on January 3, 2017
Putin knows a sure thing when he sees it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:47 PM on January 3, 2017
Senior US intelligence official tells NBC News briefing was 'always' scheduled for Friday, Trump incorrect
Holding those meetings daily would make the scheduling less confusing.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:04 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
The bill itself list the names of major lawsuits the Affordable Care Act has faced at the Supreme Court and bars them "from citation for the purpose of precedence in all future cases."
Yeah these guys love the Constitution so much they don't have the slightest fucking clue how it works. Checks and balances motherfuckers, the Court gets to decide what it will cite as precedent.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:05 PM on January 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
Yeah these guys love the Constitution so much they don't have the slightest fucking clue how it works. Checks and balances motherfuckers, the Court gets to decide what it will cite as precedent.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:05 PM on January 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
Putin knows a sure thing when he sees it.
Well he certainly knows a useful "thing" when he sees it.
posted by futz at 7:09 PM on January 3, 2017
Well he certainly knows a useful "thing" when he sees it.
posted by futz at 7:09 PM on January 3, 2017
A letter to Senators Grassley and Feinstein: We are 1140 faculty members from 171 different law schools in 49 states across the country. We urge you to reject the nomination of Senator Jeff Sessions for the position of Attorney General of the United States.
posted by peeedro at 7:15 PM on January 3, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 7:15 PM on January 3, 2017 [25 favorites]
Yeah these guys love the Constitution so much they don't have the slightest fucking clue how it works. Checks and balances motherfuckers, the Court gets to decide what it will cite as precedent.
Agreed. But the question is: how many divisions has the Chief Justice?
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:15 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Agreed. But the question is: how many divisions has the Chief Justice?
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:15 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Holding those meetings daily would make the scheduling less confusing.
I think they are already daily? Edit: Oh, that's probably your point.
posted by christopherious at 7:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think they are already daily? Edit: Oh, that's probably your point.
posted by christopherious at 7:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Steve King displays the confederate flag on his office desk, despite the fact that Iowa was part of the Union during the American Civil War. --wikipedia
posted by valkane at 7:24 PM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by valkane at 7:24 PM on January 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
On Maddow tonight, Schumer was saying the right things about resisting Trump on the ACA and his cabinet nominees, saying "we're not going to compromise our principles for the sake of compromise." We'll see how long he stays with that.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:29 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:29 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
"Rep. Steve King (R-IA) hates Obamacare so much "
There's an error in your quote; he should literally always be quoted as "Noted bigot Steve King (R-IA)."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:35 PM on January 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
There's an error in your quote; he should literally always be quoted as "Noted bigot Steve King (R-IA)."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:35 PM on January 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
On Maddow tonight, Schumer was saying the right things about resisting Trump on the ACA and his cabinet nominees, saying "we're not going to compromise our principles for the sake of compromise." We'll see how long he stays with that.
He's absolutely going to stay with it. His principles are Rockefeller Republicanism. He'll most definitely stick to them.
posted by Talez at 7:38 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
He's absolutely going to stay with it. His principles are Rockefeller Republicanism. He'll most definitely stick to them.
posted by Talez at 7:38 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
OK, but he also talked about dragging the nominee fights out for weeks and said he can't imagine any SCOTUS nominees that the GOP would accept that he would also accept. Obviously a lot of wiggle room there, but if you watch the interview, it does seem like a walking back of his initial talk of deal-making on infrastructure and what-not.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:41 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
There's an error in your quote; he should literally always be quoted as "Noted bigot Steve King (R-IA)."
You should contact/tweet TPM and let them know.
posted by futz at 7:42 PM on January 3, 2017
You should contact/tweet TPM and let them know.
posted by futz at 7:42 PM on January 3, 2017
I disagree with some of Schumer's positions but calling him a Rockefeller Republican is the same bullshit that dogged Clinton. We need to stop doing that. He was something like the 15th most liberal Senator last year.
posted by Justinian at 7:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
Deval Patrick sent a letter to the Senate Judiciary Committee today on Sessions.
posted by chris24 at 7:43 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 7:43 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think both are true -- he can be among the most liberal in the Senate and still be ideologically where establishment Republicans were 40 years ago, because Congress as a whole has moved so far right over the years.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:47 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:47 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Congress has not moved far to the right; it has bifurcated with Republicans getting more conservative whatever the fuck they are now and Democrats getting more liberal. It's gone from a bell curve to a bimodal distribution.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
It is sort of bimodal, but that doesn't mean it hasn't moved far right as well. I don't agree that Democrats have become more liberal on issues -- perhaps farther to the left from the point of view of DW-NOMINATE style analysis where there are no real issues, just ideological positioning between each member -- but it seems self-evident that both the D and R factions have drifted rightward on many issues.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:53 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:53 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
I disagree that is self-evident. Dunno how we'd prove it though.
posted by Justinian at 7:56 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 7:56 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Crazy like a rabid fox:
RALEIGH — The North Carolina environmental agency leader who headed Republican Gov. Pat McCrory's response to coal ash and other pollution problems is taking a demotion and pay cut to avoid being fired by incoming Democratic Gov.-elect Roy Cooper.
...Van Der Vaart was one of a few dozen McCrory political appointees informed this week they'll be out of work when Cooper takes over Sunday, Cooper spokeswoman Megan Jacobs confirmed Thursday.
...Last month, Van der Vaart co-signed a letter with environmental agency heads in four other states urging Republican President-elect Donald Trump to abandon Obama administration initiatives. Besides the regulations on coal-burning power plants, new EPA rules seek to extend federal jurisdiction over streams and wetlands that feed rivers, lakes, and coastal water. Van der Vaart and the others argued environmental regulations should be led by states.
posted by futz at 7:56 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
RALEIGH — The North Carolina environmental agency leader who headed Republican Gov. Pat McCrory's response to coal ash and other pollution problems is taking a demotion and pay cut to avoid being fired by incoming Democratic Gov.-elect Roy Cooper.
...Van Der Vaart was one of a few dozen McCrory political appointees informed this week they'll be out of work when Cooper takes over Sunday, Cooper spokeswoman Megan Jacobs confirmed Thursday.
...Last month, Van der Vaart co-signed a letter with environmental agency heads in four other states urging Republican President-elect Donald Trump to abandon Obama administration initiatives. Besides the regulations on coal-burning power plants, new EPA rules seek to extend federal jurisdiction over streams and wetlands that feed rivers, lakes, and coastal water. Van der Vaart and the others argued environmental regulations should be led by states.
posted by futz at 7:56 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I disagree that is self-evident. Dunno how we'd prove it though.
First there would have to be a MASSIVE discussion on what you're evaluating. On economic policy, there may be an argument that there's been an overall rightward trend. But ask a right winger and they'd say that things have shifted far to the left. Because they'd be evaluating on social issues. If you doubt that there's been movement to the left on social issues, ask yourself what the position of early 20th century liberals was on gay marriage.
posted by threeturtles at 8:09 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
WikiLeaks @wikileaks
We are issuing a US$20,000 reward for information leading to the arrest or exposure of any Obama admin agent destroying significant records.
Wikileaks no longer gives any fucks.
posted by Talez at 8:12 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
We are issuing a US$20,000 reward for information leading to the arrest or exposure of any Obama admin agent destroying significant records.
Wikileaks no longer gives any fucks.
posted by Talez at 8:12 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I disagree that is self-evident. Dunno how we'd prove it though.
It is put up or shut up time for Schumer. We will know soon enough.
posted by JackFlash at 8:21 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
It is put up or shut up time for Schumer. We will know soon enough.
posted by JackFlash at 8:21 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Now, now; he might fail not because he's too conservative but because he turns out to be a spineless milquetoast. Let's be fair.
posted by Justinian at 8:25 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:25 PM on January 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Schumer's hand picked slate of losers VASTLY underperformed Clinton across the board, and now he's giddy to work to make Trump popular and win him reelection. He should've been primaryed this time, and the first time he stabs us in the back I'll donate to his primary challenger.
Schumer is yet another obstacle, his alleged policy positions aren't even relevant.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:26 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
Schumer is yet another obstacle, his alleged policy positions aren't even relevant.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:26 PM on January 3, 2017 [7 favorites]
I have personally issued a US$20001 reward for information leading to a kicking in the groin of Julian Assange.
posted by localhuman at 8:27 PM on January 3, 2017 [33 favorites]
posted by localhuman at 8:27 PM on January 3, 2017 [33 favorites]
Wikileaks gives a fuck about Assange and not much else. Fuck that guy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:30 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:30 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wikileaks no longer gives any fucks.
Yeah. I didn't see it mentioned here and I didn't feel like commenting about it but more Assange/Hannity interview stuff came out today...Maybe the whole interview? Assange said that the leaks quacked like a russian duck, walked like a russian duck, typed like a russian duck, and totally LOOKED LIKE A RUSSIAN DUCK, but alas was not after all a russian duck. BUT then conceded that some of the quacking was certainly russian.
posted by futz at 8:31 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah. I didn't see it mentioned here and I didn't feel like commenting about it but more Assange/Hannity interview stuff came out today...Maybe the whole interview? Assange said that the leaks quacked like a russian duck, walked like a russian duck, typed like a russian duck, and totally LOOKED LIKE A RUSSIAN DUCK, but alas was not after all a russian duck. BUT then conceded that some of the quacking was certainly russian.
posted by futz at 8:31 PM on January 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Maybe the whole interview?
I think it's here. Starts around 51m.
posted by Coventry at 8:38 PM on January 3, 2017
I think it's here. Starts around 51m.
posted by Coventry at 8:38 PM on January 3, 2017
Seems like Casual Rapist Julian Assange sees a kindred soul in Millionaire Sex Predator Donald Trump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:40 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:40 PM on January 3, 2017 [14 favorites]
Assange is going to come out of this with American-issued amnesty for everything, an office suite in Trump Tower and Megyn Kelly's timeslot on FoxNews. A pardon for Manning or Snowden? Eh.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:42 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
quacked like a russian duck
In Russia, a duck says krya-krya.
posted by peeedro at 8:52 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
In Russia, a duck says krya-krya.
posted by peeedro at 8:52 PM on January 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
...and in Turkey VAK, in Romania MAC and in Denmark RAP, according to cartoon linguist James Chapman.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:18 PM on January 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hey guys remember when Trump said he would reveal new info about the hacking this week? His team now says that isn't the case. I am shocked.
posted by Justinian at 10:11 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:11 PM on January 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Hey guys remember when Trump said he would reveal new info about the hacking this week? His team now says that isn't the case. I am shocked.
Yes. Do you have a new link or is this old news?
posted by futz at 10:39 PM on January 3, 2017
Yes. Do you have a new link or is this old news?
posted by futz at 10:39 PM on January 3, 2017
Ted Cruz co-sponsors a constitutional amendment for term limits. Blergh.
posted by dhens at 11:30 PM on January 3, 2017
posted by dhens at 11:30 PM on January 3, 2017
N.A.A.C.P. President Arrested During Sit-In at Office of Jeff Sessions
It was all very civil.
posted by futz at 11:33 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
It was all very civil.
posted by futz at 11:33 PM on January 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Blue-state lawmakers want to keep Trump off 2020 ballot unless he releases tax returns
A pair of Maryland Democrats on Tuesday announced they would introduce a bill mandating the release of five years of tax returns, mirroring similar proposals in New York, Massachusetts, California and Maine.posted by peeedro at 11:37 PM on January 3, 2017 [22 favorites]
Yes. Do you have a new link or is this old news?
Which, his claim of new information or the team denying it?
For the former, here's the NYT three days ago: Trump promises a revelation on hacking. For the latter, I don't have a link but it was Sean Spicer saying on CNN that Trump won't actually reveal any new details about the hacking, only say that he doubts the conclusions.
posted by Justinian at 12:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Which, his claim of new information or the team denying it?
For the former, here's the NYT three days ago: Trump promises a revelation on hacking. For the latter, I don't have a link but it was Sean Spicer saying on CNN that Trump won't actually reveal any new details about the hacking, only say that he doubts the conclusions.
posted by Justinian at 12:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hello friends. Could any Western Pennsylvanians going to the Women's Match shoot me a MeMail?
And what is the feasibility of a meetup at such an event?
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:07 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
And what is the feasibility of a meetup at such an event?
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:07 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't say "never gonna happen" - I did totally by accident meet up with a friend I hadn't seen in five years, in the middle of the March for Women's Lives in 2004. But it would require careful planning. Which I am up for. (Also I will be in town a day early steadfastly ignoring the inauguration itself, so a pre-March meetup might be possible. MeMailing you in a sec.)
(Also also I am busily turning out pussyhats - I might be at my limit of how many I can make before the March, but if any MeFites want one, let me know and I will make one for you if I possibly can squeeze it in and if I do not run out of yarn.)
posted by Stacey at 5:27 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
(Also also I am busily turning out pussyhats - I might be at my limit of how many I can make before the March, but if any MeFites want one, let me know and I will make one for you if I possibly can squeeze it in and if I do not run out of yarn.)
posted by Stacey at 5:27 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'll be staying in Frederick the night before and after, but not rolling in until pretty late Friday night. I'm trying to do this with minimal disruption to the rest of the people in my daily life, which is turning out to be kind of stressful.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:30 AM on January 4, 2017
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:30 AM on January 4, 2017
Congress members always have the power to investigate whatever they want as it is related to writing legislation, so their powers are broad. They can call people, request documents, hold meetings, conduct interviews and hearings and have witnesses testify under oath. Now they probably won't get any help from Republicans (and if they do get main committee hearings you'll get a Sensenbrenner who will close the lights to make everyone leave (or they might scheduled a ton of floor votes just to make sure the meeting has a hard time proceeding or won't give access to some rooms so there are seating and ventilation problems)). But Democrats can do their own thing and publish reports and findings and recommendations. The idea that only subpoena power gives legitimacy strikes me as an odd bar. People can plead the fifth and even if compelled to produce can challenge (for years). But when you are looking at the bureaucratic structure there are tons of people who will explain what their department is doing without threat. The subpoena is seen as a hammer so in the vast vast vast majority of hearings it is never needed or issued.
The bigger problem is getting Democrats to act and get the public informed.
posted by phoque at 6:07 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
The bigger problem is getting Democrats to act and get the public informed.
posted by phoque at 6:07 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Bringer Tom: But now he is actually trapped.
This is an interesting way of putting things. Suppose he is actually trapped, having used the election for business purposes without any plan to be president. Trapped animals are dangerous and unpredictable, but knowing that they are in that condition is a prerequisite to approaching one. How can we leverage that? Any lion tamers/snake charmers on MeFi?
posted by stonepharisee at 6:38 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is an interesting way of putting things. Suppose he is actually trapped, having used the election for business purposes without any plan to be president. Trapped animals are dangerous and unpredictable, but knowing that they are in that condition is a prerequisite to approaching one. How can we leverage that? Any lion tamers/snake charmers on MeFi?
posted by stonepharisee at 6:38 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Another day, another tweet siding with Assange and Russia over the opposing party and the intelligence community.
@realDonaldTrump:
Julian Assange said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta" - why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!
posted by chris24 at 6:45 AM on January 4, 2017
@realDonaldTrump:
Julian Assange said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta" - why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!
posted by chris24 at 6:45 AM on January 4, 2017
IIRC, Podesta's personal gmail got spear-phished. That's not even hacking, and it's something that anyone who works in IT at a large institution knows people fall for every damn day.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who has said he supports term limits...
I believe they mean "House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who has won 10 elections to the House of Representatives and has said he supports term limits..."
posted by Etrigan at 6:49 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
I believe they mean "House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who has won 10 elections to the House of Representatives and has said he supports term limits..."
posted by Etrigan at 6:49 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
it's something that anyone who works in IT at a large institution knows people fall for every damn day.
Heh, IT has been running drills on us lately- on the last one, 26% of recipients clicked on the attachment. When the real bad guys come for us, we are in big trouble.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:52 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Heh, IT has been running drills on us lately- on the last one, 26% of recipients clicked on the attachment. When the real bad guys come for us, we are in big trouble.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:52 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
A 14-year old? Maybe even... a 10-year old? Who is tremendously good with the cyber and can do anything?
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
It would be refreshing if Trump tweeted about something he read rather than something he saw on TV.
I suspect that he just can't wrap his brain around how we can know that it was Russia.
posted by diogenes at 6:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I suspect that he just can't wrap his brain around how we can know that it was Russia.
posted by diogenes at 6:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Heh, IT has been running drills on us lately- on the last one, 26% of recipients clicked on the attachment. When the real bad guys come for us, we are in big trouble.
I feel like I should be getting some kind of bonus for the amount of phishing emails I forward to IT. Sometimes I get a reply saying it was a drill. Gameify this shit, lads! I want raffle entries for a week in Cancun or something!
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:57 AM on January 4, 2017 [20 favorites]
Ugh. He has spent the morning tweeting. Does he have nothing better to do with his time?
(All of these are from the android phone)
Julian Assuage said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta" - why was DNC so careless? Also said it was not the Russians who gave info!
Right. Blame the victim. Take Assange's word for everything, even though he did not do the hacking himself. Take the side of Russia and Assange over the entire US Intel. Terrific.
One hour later he corrects his typo: Julian Assange said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta" - why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!
"@FoxNews: Julian Assange on U.S. media coverage: “It’s very dishonest.” #Hannity " More dishonest than anyone knows
Thank you to Ford for scrapping a new plant in Mexico and creating 700 new jobs in the U.S. This is just the beginning - much more to follow
Somebody hacked the DNC but why did they not have "hacking defense" like the RNC has and why have they not responded to the terrible......
"Hacking defense"? It sounds like a football play.
things they did and said (like giving the questions to the debate to H). A total double standard! Media, as usual, gave them a pass.
Sigh. Of course the media did not give them a pass. Donna Brazile had to apologize, remember? And resign from CNN.
Republicans must be careful in that the Dems own the failed ObamaCare disaster, with its poor coverage and massive premium increases......
Oh boy here we go with ObamaCare.
like the 116% hike in Arizona. Also, deductibles are so high that it is practically useless. Don't let the Schumer clowns out of this web...
Try buying it without subsidies. See what kind of deductibles you get then. Also, "Schumer clowns"? Is this shorthand for all the Democrats in the Senate? Or does he mean any Democrat?
massive increases of ObamaCare will take place this year and Dems are to blame for the mess. It will fall of its own weight - be careful!
Democrats are responsible for jack shit. The Republicans control everything now and if they want ObamaCare to succeed and for people to have health coverage they can arrange that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:01 AM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
(All of these are from the android phone)
Julian Assuage said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta" - why was DNC so careless? Also said it was not the Russians who gave info!
Right. Blame the victim. Take Assange's word for everything, even though he did not do the hacking himself. Take the side of Russia and Assange over the entire US Intel. Terrific.
One hour later he corrects his typo: Julian Assange said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta" - why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!
"@FoxNews: Julian Assange on U.S. media coverage: “It’s very dishonest.” #Hannity " More dishonest than anyone knows
Thank you to Ford for scrapping a new plant in Mexico and creating 700 new jobs in the U.S. This is just the beginning - much more to follow
Somebody hacked the DNC but why did they not have "hacking defense" like the RNC has and why have they not responded to the terrible......
"Hacking defense"? It sounds like a football play.
things they did and said (like giving the questions to the debate to H). A total double standard! Media, as usual, gave them a pass.
Sigh. Of course the media did not give them a pass. Donna Brazile had to apologize, remember? And resign from CNN.
Republicans must be careful in that the Dems own the failed ObamaCare disaster, with its poor coverage and massive premium increases......
Oh boy here we go with ObamaCare.
like the 116% hike in Arizona. Also, deductibles are so high that it is practically useless. Don't let the Schumer clowns out of this web...
Try buying it without subsidies. See what kind of deductibles you get then. Also, "Schumer clowns"? Is this shorthand for all the Democrats in the Senate? Or does he mean any Democrat?
massive increases of ObamaCare will take place this year and Dems are to blame for the mess. It will fall of its own weight - be careful!
Democrats are responsible for jack shit. The Republicans control everything now and if they want ObamaCare to succeed and for people to have health coverage they can arrange that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:01 AM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
chris24: @realDonaldTrump: Julian Assange said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta"
For the record, the hacker used the bit.ly shortening API but accidentally left it set to public so they were able to backtrack his targets. 4,396 phishing URLs sent to 1,881 Google Accounts. An analysis of the targets here.
Most of the targeted accounts are linked to intelligence gathering or information control within Russia or former Soviet states. The majority of the activity appears to focus on Russia’s military involvement in eastern Ukraine; for example, the email address targeted by the most phishing attempts (nine) was linked to a spokesperson for the Ukrainian prime minister. Other targets included individuals in political, military, and diplomatic positions in former Soviet states, as well as journalists, human rights organizations, and regional advocacy groups in Russia.
posted by bluecore at 7:01 AM on January 4, 2017 [36 favorites]
For the record, the hacker used the bit.ly shortening API but accidentally left it set to public so they were able to backtrack his targets. 4,396 phishing URLs sent to 1,881 Google Accounts. An analysis of the targets here.
Most of the targeted accounts are linked to intelligence gathering or information control within Russia or former Soviet states. The majority of the activity appears to focus on Russia’s military involvement in eastern Ukraine; for example, the email address targeted by the most phishing attempts (nine) was linked to a spokesperson for the Ukrainian prime minister. Other targets included individuals in political, military, and diplomatic positions in former Soviet states, as well as journalists, human rights organizations, and regional advocacy groups in Russia.
posted by bluecore at 7:01 AM on January 4, 2017 [36 favorites]
A 14-year old? Maybe even... a 10-year old? Who is tremendously good with the cyber and can do anything?
Ten year old Barron cybers at a fourteen year old level. He's very advanced for his age.
posted by Talez at 7:02 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ten year old Barron cybers at a fourteen year old level. He's very advanced for his age.
posted by Talez at 7:02 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Good stuff bluecore.
This random 14 year old sure had a peculiar set of interests.
posted by diogenes at 7:09 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
This random 14 year old sure had a peculiar set of interests.
posted by diogenes at 7:09 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Oh wow. Trump is letting Dems have it over Obamacare.
Apparently history stopped in 2008 because pre-Obamacare premiums were just as fucked up.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Apparently history stopped in 2008 because pre-Obamacare premiums were just as fucked up.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ryan calls Assange a 'sycophant for Russia'
Ryan declined to comment on President-elect Donald Trump’s tweets quoting Assange early Wednesday.
This two-universes thing that the GOP Legislative and Executive branches are doing can't continue forever, right? True, the answer that immediately comes to mind is "of course it can because humanity has gone insane," but it still seems like an impossible act to dance around and ignore the schism for a period of years if this and similar issues stay in the news.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:34 AM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
Ryan declined to comment on President-elect Donald Trump’s tweets quoting Assange early Wednesday.
This two-universes thing that the GOP Legislative and Executive branches are doing can't continue forever, right? True, the answer that immediately comes to mind is "of course it can because humanity has gone insane," but it still seems like an impossible act to dance around and ignore the schism for a period of years if this and similar issues stay in the news.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:34 AM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
it still seems like an impossible act
It really does. If Assange is a sycophant for Russia, and Trump is saying the same things as Assange (including actually quoting him), doesn't it follow that Trump is a sycophant for Russia?
posted by diogenes at 7:39 AM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
It really does. If Assange is a sycophant for Russia, and Trump is saying the same things as Assange (including actually quoting him), doesn't it follow that Trump is a sycophant for Russia?
posted by diogenes at 7:39 AM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
Another day, another tweet siding with Assange and Russia over the opposing party and the intelligence community.
Meanwhile, asked his opinion of Assange by Hugh Hewitt, Paul Ryan says "I really have none other than I think that the guy is a sycophant for Russia."
(There's a few more choice morsels of condescension in that interview. Everyone should tweet Donnie and tell him Ryan thinks he's an idiot.)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:39 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, asked his opinion of Assange by Hugh Hewitt, Paul Ryan says "I really have none other than I think that the guy is a sycophant for Russia."
(There's a few more choice morsels of condescension in that interview. Everyone should tweet Donnie and tell him Ryan thinks he's an idiot.)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:39 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Green Lanternism: The Reason Trump Will Always Get The Headlines He Wants
With congressional Republicans and big business, Trump is pushing on an open door -- they're on his side already. I'm betting that China, North Korea, Iran, and ISIS won't be quite as willing to tremble before Trump's mighty tweets. But whenever Trump wants to seem like a superhero, in the domestic area at least, his allies will cooperate -- and the press will lap it up.posted by tonycpsu at 7:45 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm betting that China, North Korea, Iran, and ISIS won't be quite as willing to tremble before Trump's mighty tweets.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:04 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
“May the arrogant Americans realise that the United States of America is perhaps just a shooting star in the ample sky of history,” said an editorial in the [Chinese] Communist party-affiliated Global Times newspaper.shooting star (grauniad)
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:04 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
CNN: Hi from @AEI, where @OMAROSA is leading a mtg w/ several black orgs on behalf of Trump transition. Thx to stranger who gave me this umbrella
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:05 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:05 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
-- and the press will lap it up.
dog-->vomit
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:05 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
dog-->vomit
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:05 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
New Rule Bars Lawmakers From Taking Video in House Chambers as Critics Fear Less Transparency: The House of Representatives approved a rule today prohibiting members of Congress from using phones or other personal electronic devices to record or broadcast material on the chamber floor.
The rule, passed with a series of rules to govern the newly sworn-in Congress, was written in response to a sit-in that Democrats held last summer when Republicans recessed without taking up legislation to combat gun violence.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:07 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
The rule, passed with a series of rules to govern the newly sworn-in Congress, was written in response to a sit-in that Democrats held last summer when Republicans recessed without taking up legislation to combat gun violence.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:07 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
IANAL so this may be stupid question, but can congress pass rules that infringe on free speech?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:15 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:15 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Speech is free, recording it is not. Recording has long been something that's legally regulatable and depending on how it's done, a rule is not the same as a law.
posted by Candleman at 8:19 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 8:19 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think they can pass anything they want to, but then people can challenge it in the court of law.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by filthy light thief at 8:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
IANAL so this may be stupid question, but can congress pass rules that infringe on free speech?
9-0 concurrence in Nevada Commission on Ethics v. Carrigan.
posted by Talez at 8:26 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
9-0 concurrence in Nevada Commission on Ethics v. Carrigan.
"this Court has rejected the notion that the First Amendment confers a right to use governmental mechanics to convey a message."So yes, they probably can pass rules, but there's only one way to find out for sure. However, it doesn't look good for challenging them.
posted by Talez at 8:26 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Fresh new laws! Get your fresh new laws here!
WSJ A Look at New State and Local Laws in 2017
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:26 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
WSJ A Look at New State and Local Laws in 2017
A new tax in Portland, Ore., targets “excessive” chief-executive compensation. City lawmakers approved a surtax on public companies that kicks in when CEOs make 100 times or more than the company’s median worker pay. Portland expects the surtax to raise as much as $3.5 million a year.And lots of soda tax, drug laws and labor laws. Plus, you guys in Oregon, stop releasing those sky lanterns!
Illinois is no longer imposing sales taxes on feminine hygiene products such as tampons.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:26 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
This two-universes thing that the GOP Legislative and Executive branches are doing can't continue forever, right?
It's easier if you think of the GOP and the Trump Party being different things. We finally elected a third-party candidate. yay for us
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:28 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's easier if you think of the GOP and the Trump Party being different things. We finally elected a third-party candidate. yay for us
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:28 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ugh. He has spent the morning tweeting. Does he have nothing better to do with his time?
You tend to have a lot of free time if you don't have to deal with things like preparing for a formal press conference or an interview where the interviewer might ask you ... gasp ... questions about what you're going to do as president, and how you will actually get them done. You know, real "gotcha" questions.
NPR is keeping count of all this:
At time of making this comment, It’s been 160 days since Donald Trump’s last press conference. In the meantime, he has tweeted 1,552 times.
Unfortunately, they still have their answer to "Why does this matter?" in a small, grey font, so I'll keep it normal size and make it bold:
Unlike other ways of getting messages out, press conferences hold public officials more accountable to the American people because they have to answer questions in an uncontrolled environment.
Even if the questions are soft, someone's asking him something, instead of him declaring a non-fact via tweet. Twitter is the virtual podium for this would-be despot, where he can picture his adoring fans lapping up all his truthiness, ignoring any criticism and corrections that get tweeted back at him.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:28 AM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
You tend to have a lot of free time if you don't have to deal with things like preparing for a formal press conference or an interview where the interviewer might ask you ... gasp ... questions about what you're going to do as president, and how you will actually get them done. You know, real "gotcha" questions.
NPR is keeping count of all this:
At time of making this comment, It’s been 160 days since Donald Trump’s last press conference. In the meantime, he has tweeted 1,552 times.
Unfortunately, they still have their answer to "Why does this matter?" in a small, grey font, so I'll keep it normal size and make it bold:
Unlike other ways of getting messages out, press conferences hold public officials more accountable to the American people because they have to answer questions in an uncontrolled environment.
Even if the questions are soft, someone's asking him something, instead of him declaring a non-fact via tweet. Twitter is the virtual podium for this would-be despot, where he can picture his adoring fans lapping up all his truthiness, ignoring any criticism and corrections that get tweeted back at him.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:28 AM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
This two-universes thing that the GOP Legislative and Executive branches are doing can't continue forever, right?
It's easier if you think of the GOP and the Trump Party being different things. We finally elected a third-party candidate. yay for us
The Tea Party is a third party in all but name. The GOP has been one partner in a coalition government since 2010.
posted by Etrigan at 8:37 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's easier if you think of the GOP and the Trump Party being different things. We finally elected a third-party candidate. yay for us
The Tea Party is a third party in all but name. The GOP has been one partner in a coalition government since 2010.
posted by Etrigan at 8:37 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's easier if you think of the GOP and the Trump Party being different things. We finally elected a third-party candidate. yay for us
There's some truth to this, but the question still works:
This two-universes thing that the GOP-led Legislature and the Trump Party are doing can't continue forever, right?
posted by diogenes at 8:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's some truth to this, but the question still works:
This two-universes thing that the GOP-led Legislature and the Trump Party are doing can't continue forever, right?
posted by diogenes at 8:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
And maybe there's some political ground to be gained hitting back. "The House of Representatives is the people's house, and the people have a right to hear and see what's done in their house. Why are the Republicans afraid to let the people hear?"
posted by Candleman at 8:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 8:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
The GOP and the tea party sure don't act like teobseperate parties - mostly they act like one part that is terrible.
posted by Artw at 8:47 AM on January 4, 2017
posted by Artw at 8:47 AM on January 4, 2017
They're really not. The "Tea Party" was only ever a rebranding of the same GOP dieharders who found the Bush name too publically toxic to continue to support following 2008. Like Blackwater is now called Xi. And Altria used to be Phillip Morris.
The Republican Party is Trump. They always have been.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Republican Party is Trump. They always have been.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Republican Party is Trump. They always have been.
If that's the case, will we eventually see some synthesis of the pro and anti assange-and-putin wing emerge as a consensus (lock-step party and all) or will one side eventually prevail and completely dominate? Because the alternative is that the schism will continue forever and that's the part that's hard to wrap one's head around. Particularly in a party famed for falling in line.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:51 AM on January 4, 2017
If that's the case, will we eventually see some synthesis of the pro and anti assange-and-putin wing emerge as a consensus (lock-step party and all) or will one side eventually prevail and completely dominate? Because the alternative is that the schism will continue forever and that's the part that's hard to wrap one's head around. Particularly in a party famed for falling in line.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:51 AM on January 4, 2017
The Republican Party is Trump. They always have been.
Trump wasn't even a Republican several years ago. Trump is whatever he feels like being at a particular moment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:53 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trump wasn't even a Republican several years ago. Trump is whatever he feels like being at a particular moment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:53 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well, when you have only two political parties, those parties are always going to be coalitions.
Right now I'd argue the Republican party is a coalition between what would, in a proportional system, be the White Nationalist Party, the Libertarian party, and the Christian Theocracy Party (though they probably wouldn't call themselves by those names.) The Tea Party includes all those same factions but is united by their desire to use more radical tactics -- more protests, less compromise. Trump is of the "White Nationalist" faction. What these factions mostly agree on is lower taxes.
I'd say the Democrats are a coalition of Technocrats, Socialists, and Social Justice Warriors -- just to be fair by using similarly unflattering names -- and what they mostly agree on is that government is the best tool we have for solving most of our society's problems. Democrats also have some disagreements on tactics, with the "Sanders wing" being the "more protests, less compromise" folks.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:56 AM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Right now I'd argue the Republican party is a coalition between what would, in a proportional system, be the White Nationalist Party, the Libertarian party, and the Christian Theocracy Party (though they probably wouldn't call themselves by those names.) The Tea Party includes all those same factions but is united by their desire to use more radical tactics -- more protests, less compromise. Trump is of the "White Nationalist" faction. What these factions mostly agree on is lower taxes.
I'd say the Democrats are a coalition of Technocrats, Socialists, and Social Justice Warriors -- just to be fair by using similarly unflattering names -- and what they mostly agree on is that government is the best tool we have for solving most of our society's problems. Democrats also have some disagreements on tactics, with the "Sanders wing" being the "more protests, less compromise" folks.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:56 AM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
The "Tea Party" was only ever a rebranding of the same GOP dieharders who found the Bush name too publically toxic to continue to support following 2008.
Eric Cantor, Bob Bennett, Lisa Murkowksi, Rick Lazio, Charlie Crist, and Mike Castle would likely say otherwise.
posted by Etrigan at 8:58 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Eric Cantor, Bob Bennett, Lisa Murkowksi, Rick Lazio, Charlie Crist, and Mike Castle would likely say otherwise.
posted by Etrigan at 8:58 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Sanders wing"
Are they original recipe or Hot'n'Spicy?
posted by Talez at 8:59 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Are they original recipe or Hot'n'Spicy?
posted by Talez at 8:59 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Virginia’s new bathroom bill defines sex by "condition of being male or female as shown on an individual's original birth certificate"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:59 AM on January 4, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:59 AM on January 4, 2017
Do you need the long form?
posted by thelonius at 9:02 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:02 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
My original birth certificate might be in Bengali (not sure, I'd have to look).
Does that mean I'd have to pop over to DC every time I needed to pee?
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:09 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Does that mean I'd have to pop over to DC every time I needed to pee?
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:09 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm not even sure how they intend to pass it. Won't the Terry McAuliffe just veto it?
posted by Talez at 9:12 AM on January 4, 2017
posted by Talez at 9:12 AM on January 4, 2017
From Awareness to Action: A Cybersecurity Agenda for the 45th President (large PDF)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:12 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:12 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
So, apparently, under this law one can enter either bathroom, as long as one is accompanying a child of the appropriate sex*. Maybe some people can borrow other people's children in order to gain no-fuss bathroom access in exchange for babysitting?
*by their crooked definition
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:16 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
*by their crooked definition
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:16 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Maybe some people can borrow other people's children in order to gain no-fuss bathroom access in exchange for babysitting?
No, no, no. It's obvious that there are hordes of cisgender men who are exactly immoral enough to pretend to be trans in order to enter women's bathrooms to commit felonies against women. But there are limits to the depths of filth such people are willing to perform, and it's ludicrous to think that someone intending to commit felonious sexual assault against women would be willing to just walk into the bathroom without any pretense of being allowed to be there, much less that they would be willing to injure the honor of an innocent child while committing their felonies. I mean, doing so would either be illegal or contrary to the principles and intent of the law, and it's just laughable to think that felonious sexual assaulters would stoop to such actions in order to further their felonies.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:24 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
No, no, no. It's obvious that there are hordes of cisgender men who are exactly immoral enough to pretend to be trans in order to enter women's bathrooms to commit felonies against women. But there are limits to the depths of filth such people are willing to perform, and it's ludicrous to think that someone intending to commit felonious sexual assault against women would be willing to just walk into the bathroom without any pretense of being allowed to be there, much less that they would be willing to injure the honor of an innocent child while committing their felonies. I mean, doing so would either be illegal or contrary to the principles and intent of the law, and it's just laughable to think that felonious sexual assaulters would stoop to such actions in order to further their felonies.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:24 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
The Guardian Trump hosted 'small-time mobster' Joey 'No Socks' Cinque at New Year's party
The 1995 New York Magazine story referenced in this piece is worth reading. Joey No Socks' American Academy of Hospitality Sciences specialized in selling fake awards to restaurants and then shaking them down to keep them. Trump University for hotel/restaurant/tourism crowd. Cinque also represented clients before the State Liquor Authority, bragging that he could get a liquor license in one week. I just liked seeing the words "Cinque" and "SLA" in the same sentence of a story about a Trump associate.
Mostly just—holy shit—the PEOTUS is BFF with a guy named "Joey No Socks"? James Ellroy will be in his fucking element.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:27 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
The 1995 New York Magazine story referenced in this piece is worth reading. Joey No Socks' American Academy of Hospitality Sciences specialized in selling fake awards to restaurants and then shaking them down to keep them. Trump University for hotel/restaurant/tourism crowd. Cinque also represented clients before the State Liquor Authority, bragging that he could get a liquor license in one week. I just liked seeing the words "Cinque" and "SLA" in the same sentence of a story about a Trump associate.
Mostly just—holy shit—the PEOTUS is BFF with a guy named "Joey No Socks"? James Ellroy will be in his fucking element.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:27 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
Right now I'd argue the Republican party is a coalition between what would, in a proportional system, be the White Nationalist Party, the Libertarian party, and the Christian Theocracy Party (though they probably wouldn't call themselves by those names.) The Tea Party includes all those same factions but is united by their desire to use more radical tactics -- more protests, less compromise. Trump is of the "White Nationalist" faction. What these factions mostly agree on is lower taxes.
I think I would agree (though use different names for some) but add a few: you're forgetting "Property and Power Party", "Suburban Wants Things To Just Be Nice Party", "Rural Wants To Survive Party" and "American Exceptionalist Party".
posted by corb at 9:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
I think I would agree (though use different names for some) but add a few: you're forgetting "Property and Power Party", "Suburban Wants Things To Just Be Nice Party", "Rural Wants To Survive Party" and "American Exceptionalist Party".
posted by corb at 9:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
To be fair, when I was coming up I had an acquaintance named "Tommy Two-Bowls"*.
*Whose BFF was "Twelve-Pack Tommy".
posted by notyou at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
*Whose BFF was "Twelve-Pack Tommy".
posted by notyou at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Virginia’s new bathroom bill defines sex by "condition of being male or female as shown on an individual's original birth certificate"
The only bright side to any of this is that I often have to direct visitors to a nearest restroom and it makes me all warm and toasty to imagine the proverbial old white guy whose birth certificate I could ask to see first.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:39 AM on January 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
The only bright side to any of this is that I often have to direct visitors to a nearest restroom and it makes me all warm and toasty to imagine the proverbial old white guy whose birth certificate I could ask to see first.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:39 AM on January 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
And don't think I wouldn't!
posted by octobersurprise at 9:40 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 9:40 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Property and Power Party", "Suburban Wants Things To Just Be Nice Party", "Rural Wants To Survive Party" and "American Exceptionalist Party".
Fair enough, though I think all of those sometimes caucus with Democrats. Unreliable Coaltion allies. :-)
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Fair enough, though I think all of those sometimes caucus with Democrats. Unreliable Coaltion allies. :-)
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Woman who called black Michael’s employees ‘animals’ defends meltdown: I was ‘targeted because of my race’
EXCLUSIVE: Former American Idol finalist outraged after restaurant employee calls him 'white boy'
I can't even any more.
posted by Talez at 9:59 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
EXCLUSIVE: Former American Idol finalist outraged after restaurant employee calls him 'white boy'
I can't even any more.
posted by Talez at 9:59 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I just can't even get my head around the idea that normalization has occurred to the degree where agencies including the White House think this will be anything but a complete clusterfuck the likes of which the world has never seen.
The way I read it, they expect it to be a complete clusterfuck, but a bureaucrat trying to manage upwards has to keep things diplomatic. E.g. from p. 3 (9th page):
posted by Coventry at 10:00 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
The way I read it, they expect it to be a complete clusterfuck, but a bureaucrat trying to manage upwards has to keep things diplomatic. E.g. from p. 3 (9th page):
...there is no such thing as the “government.” It is not a single entity, but a conglomerate of Cabinet departments and agencies, with different missions, authorities, workforces, and leadership. Previous presidents have tried to cast themselves as CEOs. However, the government is not a corporation and creating a host of White House functionaries modeled on “C-suite” officers found in corporate organizations is ineffective because they lack resources and authority. These White House dignitaries are only ornamental. While the government can learn much from corporate experience, particularly in the delivery of services, the United States needs a different structure than a corporation if it is to effectively manage policy and programs. These White House CTOs CISOs, CIOs need to be pruned.While they frame this in terms of past administrations, they've described exactly the philosophy by which Trump has made his cabinet picks, and foreshadowed years of bureaucratic resistance to Trump initiatives as a result.
The next administration would also be well advised to move away from outdated ideas. Statements about strengthening public-private partnerships, information sharing, or innovation leads to policy dead ends. Many date back to the 1990s. Once-powerful ideas have been transformed into clichés. Others have become excuses for inaction. Too often, the cybersecurity debate has been shaped by a desire to prevent regulation. The next administration’s task is to draft and implement policies that fit today’s cyber environment and produce measurable improvements in the performance of companies and government agencies.
posted by Coventry at 10:00 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think "American Exceptionalist" has some severe overlap with "White Nationalist" -- although in its less virulently racist forms, it's embraced across the political spectrum *cough* obama *cough*
And "Property and Power Party" + "Suburban Wants Things To Just Be Nice Party" are not motivated by white nationalism per se, but do rely on the unexamined racist foundation of, well, their suburb and/or gentrified-to-all-hell urban neighborhood. I don't know how to get them to understand this, though, because the moment you try to point this out, no matter how gently, they storm off in a rage because white fragility.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:01 AM on January 4, 2017 [24 favorites]
And "Property and Power Party" + "Suburban Wants Things To Just Be Nice Party" are not motivated by white nationalism per se, but do rely on the unexamined racist foundation of, well, their suburb and/or gentrified-to-all-hell urban neighborhood. I don't know how to get them to understand this, though, because the moment you try to point this out, no matter how gently, they storm off in a rage because white fragility.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:01 AM on January 4, 2017 [24 favorites]
they storm off in a rage because white fragility.
It's just the toughest nut to crack, I don't even know where to begin. Like, I somehow managed to bust through it at some point in my 30s, but I couldn't really tell you how other than just sitting down and shutting up for a spell. People really don't want to hear that, though. I don't know where to go from just a refusal to do so. Just... okay, then?
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:04 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's just the toughest nut to crack, I don't even know where to begin. Like, I somehow managed to bust through it at some point in my 30s, but I couldn't really tell you how other than just sitting down and shutting up for a spell. People really don't want to hear that, though. I don't know where to go from just a refusal to do so. Just... okay, then?
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:04 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
The "White Nationalist" Party and "Whites That Don't Mind White Nationalists" Party.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
The "White Nationalist" Party and "Whites That Don't Mind White Nationalists" Party.
Even the know nothings opposed slavery, supported women's rights, industry regulation and helping the middle class.
posted by Talez at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Even the know nothings opposed slavery, supported women's rights, industry regulation and helping the middle class.
posted by Talez at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Mostly just—holy shit—the PEOTUS is BFF with a guy named "Joey No Socks"?
Also "Fat Tony". His mob connections are old news, but since nothing matters anymore it just means he's a pragmatist.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:26 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also "Fat Tony". His mob connections are old news, but since nothing matters anymore it just means he's a pragmatist.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:26 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Thr newly Republican Kentucky legislature is focused on jobs.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:30 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:30 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Advocate: Time to Panic: Reversing marriage equality is not impossible, but it would require at least one more vacancy on the Supreme Court, from the pro-marriage-equality side. What is not only possible but likely, though, is that we will begin to think about marriage differently under Trump. Seeking marriage equality was a brilliant legal and civil-right strategy: It worked so fast and applied so broadly that for many people it served as a shortcut to full citizenship. But the right to get married does not equal full citizenship. It is entirely possible to be married and still be systemically discriminated against.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:31 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:31 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
I do gotta say, I am pretty sure that the nice young lady my sister had as her Maid of Honor, who asked me about how my partner and I met and why we'd eloped a few years prior while my partner was driving us to pick my sister up a bridal gift, as I was Matron of Honor... and listened so prettily when I cheerfully walked in and out of the same-sex Supreme Court decisions that had granted us the right for NotaTailor to immigrate and move in with me, and the decision a month after they'd finally been able to move that granted me the right to extend my healthcare coverage, because those two decisions have bracketed our marriage in fairly bone-deep ways....
...the young lady who listened to all this and then tilted her pretty, perfectly coiffed, blonde head and then asked us why the States can't be allowed to make their own decisions, why the federal government felt like it had to be able to impose its decisions on the states making local choices, anyway?
Well. I'm fairly sure that young lady came straight out of the "Suburban Just Wants Things to be Nice" wing of the party. It's fairly impressive, though, that for all her talk about Jesus and things being nice and thinking about the most pinterest-perfect gifts and wedding arrangements and parties to throw my sister... well, it's fairly impressive how her definition of nice didn't seem to include listening to a damn word I'd said about my own family, or employing the basic sense and politeness necessary to not bring up abstract arguments about states' rights as a countermeasure to "this piece of law let my family be together in one place."
I still regret that for my sister's sake, I had to continue to be polite and overtly friendly to her, and that I have not shared this story with my sister. But... damn. I wish I could have my feelings and my family and my reality included in the definition of Nice for these (nearly always) women, sometimes. Christ on a crutch.
posted by sciatrix at 10:33 AM on January 4, 2017 [46 favorites]
...the young lady who listened to all this and then tilted her pretty, perfectly coiffed, blonde head and then asked us why the States can't be allowed to make their own decisions, why the federal government felt like it had to be able to impose its decisions on the states making local choices, anyway?
Well. I'm fairly sure that young lady came straight out of the "Suburban Just Wants Things to be Nice" wing of the party. It's fairly impressive, though, that for all her talk about Jesus and things being nice and thinking about the most pinterest-perfect gifts and wedding arrangements and parties to throw my sister... well, it's fairly impressive how her definition of nice didn't seem to include listening to a damn word I'd said about my own family, or employing the basic sense and politeness necessary to not bring up abstract arguments about states' rights as a countermeasure to "this piece of law let my family be together in one place."
I still regret that for my sister's sake, I had to continue to be polite and overtly friendly to her, and that I have not shared this story with my sister. But... damn. I wish I could have my feelings and my family and my reality included in the definition of Nice for these (nearly always) women, sometimes. Christ on a crutch.
posted by sciatrix at 10:33 AM on January 4, 2017 [46 favorites]
(My sister, you see, is still very much a person who just wants things to be nice herself. To her credit, she has been listening to me very hard for some time now, but it felt... unkind to share my hurts on the eve of her goddamn wedding. And I still don't think anyone would have backed me up over it.)
posted by sciatrix at 10:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 10:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
...why the federal government felt like it had to be able to impose its decisions on the states making local choices, anyway?
"That's interesting... what are your feelings on the 13th amendment?"
posted by Coventry at 10:40 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
"That's interesting... what are your feelings on the 13th amendment?"
posted by Coventry at 10:40 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
I know the cute "what I would have said" hypotheticals are nice to envision and all, but mostly they just remind me about the consequences I envisioned if I said any of the half-dozen things I had in my mind, or even if I had been an ounce harsher with the kind, calm, cheerful lecture I proceeded to impart of the eighty bajillion laws on federal, state, and local levels that need to know if you're married and why, and why it's exhausting to negotiate different statuses on all of them and working out where each law comes from. (At the time that Obergefell came down, in fact, we had different legal marriage statuses on federal, state, and municipal levels!)
They are making me more sad, not less, because all the bright biting snarky rejoinders are things I did not have the freedom to say at the time, and I am wondering if my decision to do the kind thing and let my sister be happy on her personally important day without starting a fight, though it meant me being uncomfortable and itching in my skin and eventually bursting into selfish tears during the ceremony, was still yet the wrong thing to do. If I could have made an impression by being sharper to that nice, empty-headed young woman. If that's a reason we are where we are today.
Please save it.
posted by sciatrix at 10:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
They are making me more sad, not less, because all the bright biting snarky rejoinders are things I did not have the freedom to say at the time, and I am wondering if my decision to do the kind thing and let my sister be happy on her personally important day without starting a fight, though it meant me being uncomfortable and itching in my skin and eventually bursting into selfish tears during the ceremony, was still yet the wrong thing to do. If I could have made an impression by being sharper to that nice, empty-headed young woman. If that's a reason we are where we are today.
Please save it.
posted by sciatrix at 10:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
This line from the third of T.D. Strange's links really says it all: the Republican president of the Kentucky Senate asserted that women had the "choice" of whether to conceive a child and "the legislature has its ability to determine" the course of a pregnancy after that.
What's that phrase about small government again? Small enough to fit in your uterus?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
What's that phrase about small government again? Small enough to fit in your uterus?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Apologies, sciatrix.
posted by Coventry at 10:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 10:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Does that mean I'd have to pop over to DC every time I needed to pee?
IIRC the border is the Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, so you can just walk to the riverbank and let fly.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
IIRC the border is the Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, so you can just walk to the riverbank and let fly.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:47 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Talez: Woman who called black Michael’s employees ‘animals’ defends meltdown: I was ‘targeted because of my race’
EXCLUSIVE: Former American Idol finalist outraged after restaurant employee calls him 'white boy'
White people fear that people of other ethnicities will call them names. Other ethnicities fear that white people will shoot them.
T.D. Strange: Thr newly Republican Kentucky legislature is focused on jobs.
To be clear, that's 3 links to different topics that are sadly expected to come from backward-looking GOP who wish to push back the waves of progress:
1. Tweet linking to HB 106, to restrict bathroom use based on biological sex of the user
2. Bevin, GOP lawmakers push anti-union bills as angry workers chant in hallways
3. KY Senate Prez: 'To Conceive Or Not' Is A Woman's Only Choice
Same muck GOP has been pushing, while saying they're focused on jobs and individual liberties, unless those liberties involve someone with a uterus*, and now, who exactly is using which bathroom.
Because those things are so important to helping get people back to work. Good job, angry white men who now have more power than before.
* DAMMIT. That link came from my comment on the "47 percent" video leaking from Romney's private fundraiser. Oh, to look back fondly at Romney, again.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:52 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
EXCLUSIVE: Former American Idol finalist outraged after restaurant employee calls him 'white boy'
White people fear that people of other ethnicities will call them names. Other ethnicities fear that white people will shoot them.
T.D. Strange: Thr newly Republican Kentucky legislature is focused on jobs.
To be clear, that's 3 links to different topics that are sadly expected to come from backward-looking GOP who wish to push back the waves of progress:
1. Tweet linking to HB 106, to restrict bathroom use based on biological sex of the user
2. Bevin, GOP lawmakers push anti-union bills as angry workers chant in hallways
3. KY Senate Prez: 'To Conceive Or Not' Is A Woman's Only Choice
Same muck GOP has been pushing, while saying they're focused on jobs and individual liberties, unless those liberties involve someone with a uterus*, and now, who exactly is using which bathroom.
Because those things are so important to helping get people back to work. Good job, angry white men who now have more power than before.
* DAMMIT. That link came from my comment on the "47 percent" video leaking from Romney's private fundraiser. Oh, to look back fondly at Romney, again.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:52 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
What's that phrase about small government again? Small enough to fit in your uterus?
The Republican president of the Kentucky Senate replied "It's uterus not uteru". [fake]
posted by Talez at 10:53 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
The Republican president of the Kentucky Senate replied "It's uterus not uteru". [fake]
posted by Talez at 10:53 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
When your ideology is focused on the 20% that makes up the "rural" and "suburban" population, and deliberately excludes the 80% of the country that are "urban" (and hoo boy is that a lot of coding and context right there), a significant amount of white supremacy is already baked in. Whether it's unexamined or not is basically academic.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:55 AM on January 4, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 10:55 AM on January 4, 2017 [22 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
Jackie Evancho's album sales have skyrocketed after announcing her Inauguration performance.Some people just don't understand the "Movement"
I think it's safe to say that today's tweetstorm is coming from the orange eminence himself, for those interested in authorship-puzzling.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:08 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Jackie Evancho's album sales have skyrocketed after announcing her Inauguration performance.Some people just don't understand the "Movement"
I think it's safe to say that today's tweetstorm is coming from the orange eminence himself, for those interested in authorship-puzzling.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:08 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh, and "Property and Power"? Waaaay too close to the more infamous definitions (as in, 1861-1865) of "state's rights," especially in the context of stuff like "Rural Wants To Survive." There's centuries' worth of history tied up in the intersection of property, power, and rural (and to a lesser extent, suburban) populations, and frankly those ideas should be kept very far away from each other given that history.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:10 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 11:10 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Donald Trump asked Rupert Murdoch to name picks for FCC chair
The Internet is fucking doomed.
posted by Talez at 11:14 AM on January 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
The Internet is fucking doomed.
posted by Talez at 11:14 AM on January 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
Whether it's unexamined or not is basically academic.
For purposes of describing where we are and how we got here: yes, to some extent.
But the project of deconstructing whiteness involves understanding how white supremacy is rationalized and maintained in the white psyche (and the psyches of people who are other than white, too -- since we, too, internalized white supremacism.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:16 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
For purposes of describing where we are and how we got here: yes, to some extent.
But the project of deconstructing whiteness involves understanding how white supremacy is rationalized and maintained in the white psyche (and the psyches of people who are other than white, too -- since we, too, internalized white supremacism.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:16 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Some people just don't understand the "Movement"
On the contrary, I think of you whenever I have a movement.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:21 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
On the contrary, I think of you whenever I have a movement.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:21 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
The Internet is fucking doomed.
Since the death of net neutrality and the direct results thereof would (will) quickly hurt almost every non-wealthy person in america, it might be one of the most efficient paths toward convincing unenthusiastic trump voters of what an awful mistake they've made. A silver lining for a near future where my internet costs half my rent.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:21 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Since the death of net neutrality and the direct results thereof would (will) quickly hurt almost every non-wealthy person in america, it might be one of the most efficient paths toward convincing unenthusiastic trump voters of what an awful mistake they've made. A silver lining for a near future where my internet costs half my rent.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:21 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
The internet has been doomed a long time. It's primarily a means to social control now. We can thank everyone who has increased police state powers for this. When I have to explore foreign options to have any chance at privacy for customers, well, there's a problem.
Silver lining! Small businesses, and I mean small in the general sense, not the corrupted Chamber of Commerce gaming the system sense, might have a chance without the centralizing forces of the internet.
Yes, I still resent having to carry a tracking device so I can phone people.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 11:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Silver lining! Small businesses, and I mean small in the general sense, not the corrupted Chamber of Commerce gaming the system sense, might have a chance without the centralizing forces of the internet.
Yes, I still resent having to carry a tracking device so I can phone people.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 11:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
From the link about a white t-Rump voter screaming at black store staff:
She said her reaction was due to “frustration of why am I being treated differently?”
RIP Irony, died 2016, killed by Special White Snowflakes.
posted by NorthernLite at 11:42 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
She said her reaction was due to “frustration of why am I being treated differently?”
RIP Irony, died 2016, killed by Special White Snowflakes.
posted by NorthernLite at 11:42 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mike Pence promises Obamacare Repeal but shares few details on alternative:
No, the real issues facing the US today are taking away everybody's healthcare with...no clear alternative at all, strongarming a sovereign country into building an impossible wall to stem Mexican immigration which was at historic lows until all this talk about a wall coupled with violence and political instability that's partly the US' fault kicked off a migration surge, making sure trans and LGB people have no basic rights anywhere, eradicating women's healthcare entirely because what even is a uterus anyway, just giving up the pretense and shutting down any aspect of government or law that's inconvenient, crashing the economy, starting a global war and "strengthening" the world's strongest military.
These priorities. God help us.
posted by byanyothername at 11:48 AM on January 4, 2017 [34 favorites]
He said the administration would keep Trump’s campaign promises to end illegal immigration, build a wall along the Mexican border and rebuild the US military. “But the first order of business is to repeal and replace Obamacare,” he told reporters. “The American people voted decisively for a better future for healthcare in this country and we are determined to give them that.”So... Systemic racism? It's not real, don't talk about it. Economic inequality? Look, even Democrats agree it's not real, so don't talk about it. Climate change? Come on, everyone knows that's not real, so stop talking about it. International conflict? Haha, like other countries have sovereignty, that's cute. Science? Bunch of politicized nonsense. Conflicts of interest? What's the big deal, doesn't everybody have those?
Along with House speaker Paul Ryan, he sought to portray Obamacare as a disaster from which Americans needed immediate “relief” as soon as Trump takes office on 20 January.
No, the real issues facing the US today are taking away everybody's healthcare with...no clear alternative at all, strongarming a sovereign country into building an impossible wall to stem Mexican immigration which was at historic lows until all this talk about a wall coupled with violence and political instability that's partly the US' fault kicked off a migration surge, making sure trans and LGB people have no basic rights anywhere, eradicating women's healthcare entirely because what even is a uterus anyway, just giving up the pretense and shutting down any aspect of government or law that's inconvenient, crashing the economy, starting a global war and "strengthening" the world's strongest military.
These priorities. God help us.
posted by byanyothername at 11:48 AM on January 4, 2017 [34 favorites]
I remember the huge, very visible Internet resistance to SOPA/PIPA from almost all quarters of the web a while ago - I hope there's some way various Internet communities could unify to protest or otherwise spread awareness of the Murdoch issue. If it was done once, it could be done again.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:55 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 11:55 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Republican senators introduce bill to move US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem
After being sworn into the 115th Congress in Washington, Ted Cruz of Texas, Dean Heller of Nevada and Marco Rubio of Florida unveiled the Jerusalem Embassy and Recognition Act.posted by kirkaracha at 11:57 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
...
Although the US Congress passed a law ordering the move to Jerusalem in 1995, every president since then has exercised a six-month waiver to prevent it taking place, usually citing “national security concerns”. Saeb Erekat, a senior Palestinian official and peace negotiator, warned last month that moving the embassy to Jerusalem would result in the “destruction of the peace process as a whole”.
Gee, wonder what changed?
Trump in 2010: WikiLeaks 'disgraceful,' there 'should be like death penalty or something'
posted by chris24 at 12:00 PM on January 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
Trump in 2010: WikiLeaks 'disgraceful,' there 'should be like death penalty or something'
posted by chris24 at 12:00 PM on January 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
radicating women's healthcare entirely because what even is a uterus anyway,
I've had this sinking feeling that we'll save Obamacare only by ditching coverage of birth control. (I suspect that coverage for LGBTQ issues has a way better chance of surviving as part of some Grand Compromise -- the past few years have shown that bathroom bills get pushback while abortion restrictions slip through without much press coverage.)
We'll all applaud, women's rights will be a sacrificial lamb, everyone is happy except all the women who now need to have back alley abortions.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 12:03 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've had this sinking feeling that we'll save Obamacare only by ditching coverage of birth control. (I suspect that coverage for LGBTQ issues has a way better chance of surviving as part of some Grand Compromise -- the past few years have shown that bathroom bills get pushback while abortion restrictions slip through without much press coverage.)
We'll all applaud, women's rights will be a sacrificial lamb, everyone is happy except all the women who now need to have back alley abortions.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 12:03 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
“The American people voted decisively for a better future for healthcare in this country and we are determined to give them that.”"And give it to them good and hard," he muttered as he fled back into the shadows from whence he came.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:03 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
It’s begun: Cable companies are pushing to repeal Obama-era Internet privacy rules
In a petition filed to federal regulators Monday, a top Washington trade group whose members include Comcast, Charter and Cox argued that the rules should be thrown out.
“They are unnecessary, unjustified, unmoored from a cost-benefit assessment, and unlikely to advance the Commission’s stated goal of enhancing consumer privacy,” wrote the Internet & Television Association, known as NCTA.
The petition joins a bevy of others from groups representing telecom companies, wireless carriers, tech companies and advertisers.
posted by futz at 12:04 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
In a petition filed to federal regulators Monday, a top Washington trade group whose members include Comcast, Charter and Cox argued that the rules should be thrown out.
“They are unnecessary, unjustified, unmoored from a cost-benefit assessment, and unlikely to advance the Commission’s stated goal of enhancing consumer privacy,” wrote the Internet & Television Association, known as NCTA.
The petition joins a bevy of others from groups representing telecom companies, wireless carriers, tech companies and advertisers.
posted by futz at 12:04 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I still can't wrap my head around how the allegations -- still not proven false -- that Donald Trump raped a 13 year old girl aren't a showstopper for everyone in the nation.
posted by mikelieman at 12:04 PM on January 4, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 12:04 PM on January 4, 2017 [25 favorites]
If I could have made an impression by being sharper to that nice, empty-headed young woman. If that's a reason we are where we are today.No, it's not. It's not the responsibility of the oppressed to convince their oppressers not to oppress them. Given your choices in the situation, I personally think it's laudable the you chose to protect your sister's special day over your own well being. You don't have anything to second-guess.
posted by Brak at 12:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
how the allegations -- still not proven false -- that Donald Trump raped a 13 year old girl aren't a showstopper for everyone in the nation.
I've tried to bring the allegations up - they're horrifying - but the Trumpists I discuss the issue with generally hide behind "Bill did it too", bring up the story of Hillary being the defense attorney for a rapist, or just saying that nothing's been proven true about Trump yet and the woman withdrew the case (the issue of why she did so doesn't bother them).
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
I've tried to bring the allegations up - they're horrifying - but the Trumpists I discuss the issue with generally hide behind "Bill did it too", bring up the story of Hillary being the defense attorney for a rapist, or just saying that nothing's been proven true about Trump yet and the woman withdrew the case (the issue of why she did so doesn't bother them).
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 12:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Re: Obamacare, I thought this Mother Jones Article did a really good job of breaking down what Republicans can and can't "repeal" and what they might want to" replace" it with.
Whatever makes him popular, probably.
My hope, based on those arguments is that Republicans will just replace the "individual mandate" with the requirement for continuous coverage, declare that they have saved us all by "repealing Obamacare" and call it a victory. Maybe Trump's desire to avoid unpopular moves will prevent them from underfunding the "high risk pools" as badly as Ryan wants to. Maybe? This is kind of a best case scenario, I guess, but it sounds politically plausible to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:14 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
First, Ryan's plan wouldn't allow people to stop or start coverage whenever they wanted. Instead, insurance companies would be required to sell policies only to people who have maintained continuous coverage—and Ryan's plan would provide refundable tax credits to help pay for it. In other words, unlike the Obamacare individual mandate, which encourages people to buy insurance by assessing a tax penalty on anyone who remains uncovered, Ryan's plan encourages people to buy insurance by threatening them with the inability to get coverage if they ever get sick.But that's a guess at what Congressional Republicans want to do. What does Trump want to do?
...
If you haven't yet noticed what this all means, let me spell it out. The key parts of Obamacare and Ryan's plan are the same. They both (a) rely on private insurance, (b) require insurance companies to cover people with preexisting conditions, (c) encourage people to buy insurance continuously by penalizing them if they don't, (d) provide billions of dollars in federal subsidies to make insurance affordable for low-income households, and (e) rely on Medicaid for the very poorest.
...
The basics are necessarily similar, but the Republican plan will be difficult to implement and is far less generous. Ryan's plan, for example, budgets $25 billion for high-risk pools, while Obamacare budgets more than twice as much for its subsidies—and experience has shown that even this is barely adequate. Likewise, Ryan's plan eliminates Obamacare's Medicaid expansion, and it would be unlikely to make up for that with its various hand-waving proposals for wiping out fraud and improving efficiency. Almost certainly, millions of people would lose coverage entirely, and millions more would have to pay more for health insurance. Losing Obamacare in this way would cause tremendous hardship for a huge number of people.
Whatever makes him popular, probably.
My hope, based on those arguments is that Republicans will just replace the "individual mandate" with the requirement for continuous coverage, declare that they have saved us all by "repealing Obamacare" and call it a victory. Maybe Trump's desire to avoid unpopular moves will prevent them from underfunding the "high risk pools" as badly as Ryan wants to. Maybe? This is kind of a best case scenario, I guess, but it sounds politically plausible to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:14 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I still can't wrap my head around how the allegations -- still not proven false -- that Donald Trump raped a 13 year old girl aren't a showstopper for everyone in the nation.
This is why I have no forgiveness for Trump voters. Claim you're not a racist, then what about the sexual assault. Claim you're not a misogynist, then what about the fascism. Claim you're not a fascist, then what about the buffoonery. Claim you're not an idiot, then what about the insanity. Claim you're not a nutjob, then what about a million other things that should be a dealbreaker to any decent human being.
There is no excuse for voting for Trump since he is manifestly disqualified by any reasonable standard. And if people voted for him, it shows there is something wrong or missing in them.
posted by chris24 at 12:16 PM on January 4, 2017 [34 favorites]
This is why I have no forgiveness for Trump voters. Claim you're not a racist, then what about the sexual assault. Claim you're not a misogynist, then what about the fascism. Claim you're not a fascist, then what about the buffoonery. Claim you're not an idiot, then what about the insanity. Claim you're not a nutjob, then what about a million other things that should be a dealbreaker to any decent human being.
There is no excuse for voting for Trump since he is manifestly disqualified by any reasonable standard. And if people voted for him, it shows there is something wrong or missing in them.
posted by chris24 at 12:16 PM on January 4, 2017 [34 favorites]
and the press will lap it up.
Still encouraging everyone to drop as much of the mainstream press as possible now, before it gets sticky and foul. -er.
posted by petebest at 12:18 PM on January 4, 2017
Still encouraging everyone to drop as much of the mainstream press as possible now, before it gets sticky and foul. -er.
posted by petebest at 12:18 PM on January 4, 2017
But chris24, they don't believe he's a racist, or that he sexually assaulted anyone, or that he's a misogynist, or a fascist. Oh sure, liberals and the news media say all of that, but you can't trust them, can you? He can't be a bad person. He's a Republican!
(And the "buffoon" thing is all an act. Genius!)
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:20 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
(And the "buffoon" thing is all an act. Genius!)
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:20 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
to drop as much of the mainstream press
Gosh dangit, no, don't drop the mainstream press. We need some kind of consensus reality. The last thing we need is everyone in their own media bubble. Hold them to a higher standard, call them on their BS when they publish BS, but don't drop them.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:21 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
Gosh dangit, no, don't drop the mainstream press. We need some kind of consensus reality. The last thing we need is everyone in their own media bubble. Hold them to a higher standard, call them on their BS when they publish BS, but don't drop them.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:21 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
But chris24, they don't believe he's a racist, or that he sexually assaulted anyone, or that he's a misogynist, or a fascist. Oh sure, liberals and the news media say all of that, but you can't trust them, can you? He can't be a bad person. He's a Republican!
If they're idiotic, ignorant, or idealogical enough to truly believe this, then it confirms there's something wrong or missing in them.
posted by chris24 at 12:23 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
If they're idiotic, ignorant, or idealogical enough to truly believe this, then it confirms there's something wrong or missing in them.
posted by chris24 at 12:23 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Empathy for people that don't look or believe exactly as they and their family do. That's what's missing. It's why Republicans tend to only come around on, say, gay rights when their daughters come out as lesbians. And so on.
posted by Justinian at 12:26 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:26 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
“The American people voted decisively for a better future for healthcare in this country..."
Yeah, but she lost the electoral vote.
posted by uosuaq at 12:27 PM on January 4, 2017 [33 favorites]
Yeah, but she lost the electoral vote.
posted by uosuaq at 12:27 PM on January 4, 2017 [33 favorites]
Fully repealing Obamacare will cost $350 billion
posted by futz at 12:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by futz at 12:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
Missing.
What's missing is the courage to consider the benefit that has accrued to them personally as a result of some of the greatest crimes against humanity ever perpetrated by our species.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:33 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
What's missing is the courage to consider the benefit that has accrued to them personally as a result of some of the greatest crimes against humanity ever perpetrated by our species.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:33 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
One thing I'm curious about -- can the Republicans pass this "let insurers sell policies across state lines" thing through reconciliation? (If so, I guess that will also be part of the "replacement" plan, and will lower standards of what counts as insurance in all 50 states to whatever counts as insurance in the least-regulated state market) .
If not, would Democrats be willing to filibuster that?
And don't they have to get state governments to go along with, changing the rules about what kinds of insurance can be sold in their state? Or no, because it's "interstate commerce"?
Most likely under any replacement plan "insurance" is going to cover less (in order to keep premium prices down.) Will lifetime (or yearly) caps come back? Will deductibles continue to go up? Didn't the Office of Management and Budget decide that they won't count any of the Republicans' plans as providing "insurance" unless it met certain standards, for purposes of estimating how many people would be insured and what the cost of insuring them would be? I'm having trouble finding a reference for that now... Will that mean that the Republicans won't be able to politically get away with touting cheap but worthless plans as "coverage for all"?
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:36 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
If not, would Democrats be willing to filibuster that?
And don't they have to get state governments to go along with, changing the rules about what kinds of insurance can be sold in their state? Or no, because it's "interstate commerce"?
Most likely under any replacement plan "insurance" is going to cover less (in order to keep premium prices down.) Will lifetime (or yearly) caps come back? Will deductibles continue to go up? Didn't the Office of Management and Budget decide that they won't count any of the Republicans' plans as providing "insurance" unless it met certain standards, for purposes of estimating how many people would be insured and what the cost of insuring them would be? I'm having trouble finding a reference for that now... Will that mean that the Republicans won't be able to politically get away with touting cheap but worthless plans as "coverage for all"?
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:36 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
We need some kind of consensus reality. The last thing we need is everyone in their own media bubble. Hold them to a higher standard, call them on their BS when they publish BS, but don't drop them.
Reference them then, maybe, but avoid regular reading/watching/listening. It's going to be non-stop garbage for years, get out now while we've got a breath.
Hold them to a higher standard how?. Letter to Liz Spayd? Refusal to purchase their sponsor's product? The whole mainstream media ecosystem is set up to roll towards the money, wherever that is most easily obtained.
Soon, that will be the 18-25 Trump voter. And I refuse to witness or participate. Matt Lauer, Chuck Todd, et. al. can bite me.
posted by petebest at 12:36 PM on January 4, 2017
Reference them then, maybe, but avoid regular reading/watching/listening. It's going to be non-stop garbage for years, get out now while we've got a breath.
Hold them to a higher standard how?. Letter to Liz Spayd? Refusal to purchase their sponsor's product? The whole mainstream media ecosystem is set up to roll towards the money, wherever that is most easily obtained.
Soon, that will be the 18-25 Trump voter. And I refuse to witness or participate. Matt Lauer, Chuck Todd, et. al. can bite me.
posted by petebest at 12:36 PM on January 4, 2017
Law Newz Wikileaks Threatens CNN With Defamation Lawsuit After Assange Called ‘Pedophile’ on Live TV
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:38 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
The open-secrets group Wikileaks has threatened CNN with a defamation lawsuit on Wednesday after a commentator reportedly referred to founder Julian Assange as a “pedophile who lives in the Ecuadorian embassy in London.An hour of CNN airtime? Seriously? Assange is feeling mighty sure of himself these days.
”We have issued instructions to sue CNN for defamation
Unless within 48h they air a one hour expose of the plot." [taken from wikileaks tweet]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:38 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
video: McConnell: "The American people simply will not tolerate" Democrats blocking Trump's SCOTUS nominee
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hold them accountable to a higher standard how, if refusing to subscribe to them or give them money, i.e., hitting them where it hurts, is off the table?
Most mainstream newpspaers offer 10 free articles per month, you know.
But mostly what I mean by "hold them to a higher standard" is "fact check them" and "publically criticize them when they get stuff wrong." Though letters to editors and ombudsmen don't hurt, of course.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:42 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Most mainstream newpspaers offer 10 free articles per month, you know.
But mostly what I mean by "hold them to a higher standard" is "fact check them" and "publically criticize them when they get stuff wrong." Though letters to editors and ombudsmen don't hurt, of course.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:42 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ivanka Trump’s New D.C. House Was Home to Financier Linked to Russian Opposition
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:42 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:42 PM on January 4, 2017
video: McConnell: "The American people simply will not tolerate" Democrats blocking Trump's SCOTUS nominee
The American people didn't give a shit about it for 11 months. Democrats should test whether they will for 4 years. Arguably the only lessons from this election are 1) white supremacy is alive and well and 2) obstruction is rewarded, not punished.
McConnell doesn't want to blow up the filibuster any more than it already is. Democrats must force his hand.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:44 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
The American people didn't give a shit about it for 11 months. Democrats should test whether they will for 4 years. Arguably the only lessons from this election are 1) white supremacy is alive and well and 2) obstruction is rewarded, not punished.
McConnell doesn't want to blow up the filibuster any more than it already is. Democrats must force his hand.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:44 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
video: McConnell: "The American people simply will not tolerate" Democrats blocking Trump's SCOTUS nominee
I know intellectually that this is The Blue but I'm presently blind because I can see nothing but red.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:45 PM on January 4, 2017 [28 favorites]
I know intellectually that this is The Blue but I'm presently blind because I can see nothing but red.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:45 PM on January 4, 2017 [28 favorites]
My impression was that the "across state lines" thing was more useless than harmful, because few insurers would actually be willing to deal with the headache of expanding out of state in practice (wish I could remember where I read this). Out of the anti-Obamacare provisions on the table it's not the one I'm the most worried about (killing the Medicaid expansion seems significantly more threatening to me).
posted by en forme de poire at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by en forme de poire at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Guardian Trump hosted 'small-time mobster' Joey 'No Socks' Cinque at New Year's party
He can only manage to schmooze with D-List mobsters. That's a pretty sick burn.
posted by srboisvert at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
He can only manage to schmooze with D-List mobsters. That's a pretty sick burn.
posted by srboisvert at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Who exactly is "The American People"?
Does he mean "The American People who voted for DJT and give a damn about the Supreme Court nominees," because I'm guessing that is around 10 to 15% of all American people.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Does he mean "The American People who voted for DJT and give a damn about the Supreme Court nominees," because I'm guessing that is around 10 to 15% of all American people.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Assange is feeling mighty sure of himself these days.
Well, sure! He's even got the hot-doggiest, ding-dangiest, Mama Grizzy of them all making goo-goo eyes at him now. She'll probably marry him to one of her spawn before it's all over. He can even see Russia from her house.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:49 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Well, sure! He's even got the hot-doggiest, ding-dangiest, Mama Grizzy of them all making goo-goo eyes at him now. She'll probably marry him to one of her spawn before it's all over. He can even see Russia from her house.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:49 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
The "American people schumer-led weaklings simply will not tolerate" Democrats blocking Trump's SCOTUS nominee
i still do not at all understand how we got schumer. but i'd love to see that block. btw, kos on obstruction, again.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
i still do not at all understand how we got schumer. but i'd love to see that block. btw, kos on obstruction, again.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing I'm curious about -- can the Republicans pass this "let insurers sell policies across state lines" thing through reconciliation?
Almost certainly not if I understand the process sufficiently.
posted by Justinian at 12:51 PM on January 4, 2017
Almost certainly not if I understand the process sufficiently.
posted by Justinian at 12:51 PM on January 4, 2017
btw, kos on obstruction, again.
We lost Harry Reid at the worst possible time. Harry would do this. Schumer cannot wait to take credit for helping pass Trump's agenda if it gets him a pat on the head and time on CNN.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
We lost Harry Reid at the worst possible time. Harry would do this. Schumer cannot wait to take credit for helping pass Trump's agenda if it gets him a pat on the head and time on CNN.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ryan's plan encourages people to buy insurance by threatening them with the inability to get coverage if they ever get sick.
Because if there is one thing the young and healthy have in spades, it's foresight.
posted by srboisvert at 12:54 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
Because if there is one thing the young and healthy have in spades, it's foresight.
posted by srboisvert at 12:54 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
My impression was that the "across state lines" thing was more useless than harmful, because few insurers would actually be willing to deal with the headache of expanding out of state in practice (wish I could remember where I read this)
I heard something about this on The Weeds podcast which did an in-depth look at the possible repeal/replace ideas. Most (all?) insurance companies need to have a close relationship with medical providers, looking at the facilities, how they bill, etc. So it is unusual for an Insurance Company to cross state lines now.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:54 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I heard something about this on The Weeds podcast which did an in-depth look at the possible repeal/replace ideas. Most (all?) insurance companies need to have a close relationship with medical providers, looking at the facilities, how they bill, etc. So it is unusual for an Insurance Company to cross state lines now.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:54 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I still can't wrap my head around how the allegations -- still not proven false -- that Donald Trump raped a 13 year old girl aren't a showstopper for everyone in the nation.
For me, it's because of the "until proven guilty" thing.
posted by diogenes at 12:57 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
For me, it's because of the "until proven guilty" thing.
posted by diogenes at 12:57 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
My understanding is the "across state lines thing" is code for a race to the bottom like formation of corporations in Delaware. North Dakota or somewhere will pass insurance friendly laws to prevent suits or weaken patient protections, while insurers will flock to re-register as a North Dakota based insurer.
How plausible that would be to actually happen, I don't know. But that's surely the intent, rather than any kind of efficiency or coverage expansion.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:57 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
How plausible that would be to actually happen, I don't know. But that's surely the intent, rather than any kind of efficiency or coverage expansion.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:57 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
i still do not at all understand how we got schumer
I have heard rumors that he is thinking of running for President in 2020. If so, he is the worst idea for a candidate I can imagine. I hope this idea gets nipped in the bud quickly.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:59 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
I have heard rumors that he is thinking of running for President in 2020. If so, he is the worst idea for a candidate I can imagine. I hope this idea gets nipped in the bud quickly.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:59 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
My understanding is the "across state lines thing" is code for a race to the bottom like formation of corporations in Delaware.
Yup, I was listening to some wonky podcast (I can't remember which one), and this was the conclusion.
posted by diogenes at 12:59 PM on January 4, 2017
Yup, I was listening to some wonky podcast (I can't remember which one), and this was the conclusion.
posted by diogenes at 12:59 PM on January 4, 2017
I have heard rumors that he is thinking of running for President in 2020. If so, he is the worst idea for a candidate I can imagine.
2020 Democratic primary:
Andrew Cuomo
Corey Booker
Chuck Schumer
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:01 PM on January 4, 2017
2020 Democratic primary:
Andrew Cuomo
Corey Booker
Chuck Schumer
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:01 PM on January 4, 2017
> Treasury Nominee Steve Mnuchin’s Bank Accused of “Widespread Misconduct” in Leaked Memo
The Wrong People Learned the Wrong Lessons from the 2008 Financial Meltdown. And we're all in big trouble. Again.
posted by homunculus at 1:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Wrong People Learned the Wrong Lessons from the 2008 Financial Meltdown. And we're all in big trouble. Again.
posted by homunculus at 1:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
The bill would slash in half the funds that Congress disburses to the State Department for building, securing and maintaining embassies until the embassy opens in Jerusalem.
American First, yo.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
American First, yo.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
So what do you do if you are nominated to be Secretary of Commerce in Trumpland? You start a twitter account, Duh.
@WilburRoss
Bio: Investor, banker and art collector. Dedicated to creating and saving American jobs. Nominated by @realDonaldTrump for Secretary of Commerce.
Tweets: 1
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:05 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
@WilburRoss
Bio: Investor, banker and art collector. Dedicated to creating and saving American jobs. Nominated by @realDonaldTrump for Secretary of Commerce.
Tweets: 1
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:05 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
2017: Here's a statement from the Florida Supreme Court on the mistakenly filed death penalty order from earlier today
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:06 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:06 PM on January 4, 2017
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
posted by valkane at 1:07 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by valkane at 1:07 PM on January 4, 2017
2020 Democratic primary:
Andrew Cuomo
Corey Booker
Chuck Schumer
You forgot Mark Zuckerberg.
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
Which will be sometime during the morning of January 20th.
posted by y2karl at 1:13 PM on January 4, 2017
Andrew Cuomo
Corey Booker
Chuck Schumer
You forgot Mark Zuckerberg.
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
Which will be sometime during the morning of January 20th.
posted by y2karl at 1:13 PM on January 4, 2017
So Jackie Evancho's album that's supposedly selling like hot cakes now that she's performing at the inauguration? Dropped 41 spots in the last week on the Billboard 200. That's some movement.
posted by chris24 at 1:16 PM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 1:16 PM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
So Jackie Evancho's album that's supposedly selling like hot cakes now that she's performing at the inauguration? Dropped 41 spots in the last week on the Billboard 200.
It's also a Christmas album, so.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:17 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's also a Christmas album, so.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:17 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
For me, it's because of the "until proven guilty" thing.
That's a standard we can't hew to with Donald. His brownshirts terrorized that girl into withdrawing her claim, and he was silent about it. He's also admitted to sexual misconduct of various kinds right on tape, and his defense against an accusation of brutal marital rape amounted to 'can't rape your wife anyway, lol.'
tl;dr: 'Until proven guilty' is only for people who actually go to court, not for folks with the clout to sweep things under the rug. We should never, ever give him the benefit of the doubt.
Upon preview:
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
Given the way they let 9/11 happen and Dubya rode it into a second term, I'm guessing they'll use it to expand their powers a bunch.
posted by mordax at 1:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
That's a standard we can't hew to with Donald. His brownshirts terrorized that girl into withdrawing her claim, and he was silent about it. He's also admitted to sexual misconduct of various kinds right on tape, and his defense against an accusation of brutal marital rape amounted to 'can't rape your wife anyway, lol.'
tl;dr: 'Until proven guilty' is only for people who actually go to court, not for folks with the clout to sweep things under the rug. We should never, ever give him the benefit of the doubt.
Upon preview:
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
Given the way they let 9/11 happen and Dubya rode it into a second term, I'm guessing they'll use it to expand their powers a bunch.
posted by mordax at 1:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
We've seen it before. An initial denial that an investigation is even necessary, an attempt to establish a friendly whitewash, and finally, covert sandbagging and stovepiping of any actual investigation.
posted by Coventry at 1:19 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
We've seen it before. An initial denial that an investigation is even necessary, an attempt to establish a friendly whitewash, and finally, covert sandbagging and stovepiping of any actual investigation.
posted by Coventry at 1:19 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
That's a standard we can't hew to with Donald.
Basing my thoughts and actions on allegations is a slope down which I'm not willing to slip.
posted by diogenes at 1:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Basing my thoughts and actions on allegations is a slope down which I'm not willing to slip.
posted by diogenes at 1:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
The day of Trump's presser, there are going to be six confirmation hearings next week on Jan. 11: Sessions, DeVos, Chao, Pompeo, Kelly, Tillerson (Politico)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
2020 Bruce Springsteen, people.
We have seen the presidents of the future, and none of them are competent. Beat the Republicans on their own turf.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 1:33 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
We have seen the presidents of the future, and none of them are competent. Beat the Republicans on their own turf.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 1:33 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
@geoffreyvs:
McCain on possibly supporting Tillerson for SecState: "Sure. There's also a realistic scenario that pigs fly." http://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Tillerson-makes-rounds-on-Captiol-Hill-seeks-10835339.php
posted by chris24 at 1:36 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
McCain on possibly supporting Tillerson for SecState: "Sure. There's also a realistic scenario that pigs fly." http://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Tillerson-makes-rounds-on-Captiol-Hill-seeks-10835339.php
posted by chris24 at 1:36 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
Bernie Just Printed a Gigantic Trump Tweet and Brought It to the Senate Floor
He should just do this every day.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:42 PM on January 4, 2017 [32 favorites]
He should just do this every day.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:42 PM on January 4, 2017 [32 favorites]
re: "innocent until proven guilty" - fair enough.
But I guess it doesn't apply to the Clintons, who were subject to investigations and proven not guilty?
Fine then, investigate Donald and prove that he wasn't/isn't guilty.
posted by porpoise at 1:42 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
But I guess it doesn't apply to the Clintons, who were subject to investigations and proven not guilty?
Fine then, investigate Donald and prove that he wasn't/isn't guilty.
posted by porpoise at 1:42 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
McCain on possibly supporting Tillerson
When is the last time a Senator from the president's own party rejected a nominee?
posted by diogenes at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
When is the last time a Senator from the president's own party rejected a nominee?
posted by diogenes at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
There were something like a dozen Benghazis under W's watch. Then, as now, IOKIYAR.
posted by dirigibleman at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
There were something like a dozen Benghazis under W's watch. Then, as now, IOKIYAR.
posted by dirigibleman at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [10 favorites]
Bill Stepien, who was fired over Bridgegate scandal, will be Trump’s WH Policy Director
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:45 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:45 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
I didn't like it when people based their thoughts and actions on allegations against the Clintons. That's the thing about principles, they should continue to apply even when the shoe is on the other foot. That's what makes me different than Republicans.
I'm 100% on board with investigating Trump on every possible front.
posted by diogenes at 1:45 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm 100% on board with investigating Trump on every possible front.
posted by diogenes at 1:45 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
And the Beirut embassy bombing under Reagan killed 4 times as many Americans as Benghazi. There were no investigations. Reagan went on to sell weapons to Iran after Hezbollah claimed responsibility.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [20 favorites]
For me, it's because of the "until proven guilty" thing.
That the standard in a criminal court. Donald Trump was sued in civil court, by a woman who claims he raped her when she was 13. The Presiding Judge thought her statement and that of her two witnesses was credible enough to let a jury decide the facts.
And since the standard of proof in civil court is "Preponderance of the evidence", and we have evidence suggesting he did rape a 13 year old girl but none suggesting he did not, at this point the jury would likely conclude that he did -- in fact -- rape a 13 year old girl.
Which makes the idea that it was settled, then withdrawn even more credible.
How much would Donald Trump have paid to have his accuser withdraw her case. It cost Bill Clinton $850,000 and his accuser was an adult!
posted by mikelieman at 1:52 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
That the standard in a criminal court. Donald Trump was sued in civil court, by a woman who claims he raped her when she was 13. The Presiding Judge thought her statement and that of her two witnesses was credible enough to let a jury decide the facts.
And since the standard of proof in civil court is "Preponderance of the evidence", and we have evidence suggesting he did rape a 13 year old girl but none suggesting he did not, at this point the jury would likely conclude that he did -- in fact -- rape a 13 year old girl.
Which makes the idea that it was settled, then withdrawn even more credible.
How much would Donald Trump have paid to have his accuser withdraw her case. It cost Bill Clinton $850,000 and his accuser was an adult!
posted by mikelieman at 1:52 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mitch McConnell now says the American people 'will not tolerate' politicians blocking a Supreme Court nominee
I'm not sure what to say anymore.
posted by Talez at 1:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [12 favorites]
I'm not sure what to say anymore.
posted by Talez at 1:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [12 favorites]
Bernie Just Printed a Gigantic Trump Tweet and Brought It to the Senate Floor
He should just do this every day.
I love it! And Trump has made enough stupid tweets that Bernie could do it every day for years!
posted by diogenes at 1:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
He should just do this every day.
I love it! And Trump has made enough stupid tweets that Bernie could do it every day for years!
posted by diogenes at 1:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Basing my thoughts and actions on allegations is a slope down which I'm not willing to slip.
I would normally be on your side, is the funny thing. I'm not because this is a very dangerous edge case.
To begin with, you're right, we don't actually know if he raped anyone. We don't know because he *prevented it from going to trial*. With his very own *angry mob* engaging in death and rape threats, that he incites to violence all the time against anyone who displeases him.
Even if he's innocent of any given specific charge, the overall pattern of subverting the justice system for his own personal convenience is extremely dangerous, and should earn him some serious side-eye. That's where I'm going with this: a guy who buys, bludgeons and bluffs his way out of going to trial is different from a normal person who goes in and plays by the rules of society.
If he were just a normal criminal who pled the Fifth, he'd be within his rights, and I would find your position completely reasonable. He's not. He's a guy who terrorizes his opposition to silence.
I would also like to point out that 'innocent until proven guilty' is a trial standard. It's not something private citizens have a moral obligation to hold ourselves accountable to. You certainly have a right to feel that way, but it's not the de facto high ground.
Anyway, think what you want, I just wanted to make it clear why I think your perspective would generally be admirable, but is wrong in this sort of edge case with especially dangerous and powerful people. (See also: how Bill Cosby slid by for so long.)
posted by mordax at 1:55 PM on January 4, 2017 [21 favorites]
I would normally be on your side, is the funny thing. I'm not because this is a very dangerous edge case.
To begin with, you're right, we don't actually know if he raped anyone. We don't know because he *prevented it from going to trial*. With his very own *angry mob* engaging in death and rape threats, that he incites to violence all the time against anyone who displeases him.
Even if he's innocent of any given specific charge, the overall pattern of subverting the justice system for his own personal convenience is extremely dangerous, and should earn him some serious side-eye. That's where I'm going with this: a guy who buys, bludgeons and bluffs his way out of going to trial is different from a normal person who goes in and plays by the rules of society.
If he were just a normal criminal who pled the Fifth, he'd be within his rights, and I would find your position completely reasonable. He's not. He's a guy who terrorizes his opposition to silence.
I would also like to point out that 'innocent until proven guilty' is a trial standard. It's not something private citizens have a moral obligation to hold ourselves accountable to. You certainly have a right to feel that way, but it's not the de facto high ground.
Anyway, think what you want, I just wanted to make it clear why I think your perspective would generally be admirable, but is wrong in this sort of edge case with especially dangerous and powerful people. (See also: how Bill Cosby slid by for so long.)
posted by mordax at 1:55 PM on January 4, 2017 [21 favorites]
And since the standard of proof in civil court is "Preponderance of the evidence"
Fair point.
at this point the jury would likely conclude
I'm just not comfortable with guessing what a jury would conclude.
posted by diogenes at 1:56 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Fair point.
at this point the jury would likely conclude
I'm just not comfortable with guessing what a jury would conclude.
posted by diogenes at 1:56 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
We have no idea what a jury would conclude because we are not privy to the evidence that they would have seen. This is a foolish hypothetical.
posted by Justinian at 1:56 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:56 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
we are not privy to the evidence that they would have seen.
Sure we are. The case filing can be googled, with the plaintiff's and witness statements.
If Donald Trump had anything he wanted to be considered, he would have had ample opportunity. Alas, the evidence is all one-sided, on the plaintiff's behalf.
This is, in civil court terms, AT THIS POINT, a no-brainer. The available evidence is 100% on the plaintiff's side.
If Donald Trump wanted his statement on the record for consideration, it's no-one's fault but his own.
posted by mikelieman at 1:59 PM on January 4, 2017
Sure we are. The case filing can be googled, with the plaintiff's and witness statements.
If Donald Trump had anything he wanted to be considered, he would have had ample opportunity. Alas, the evidence is all one-sided, on the plaintiff's behalf.
This is, in civil court terms, AT THIS POINT, a no-brainer. The available evidence is 100% on the plaintiff's side.
If Donald Trump wanted his statement on the record for consideration, it's no-one's fault but his own.
posted by mikelieman at 1:59 PM on January 4, 2017
We have no way of knowing what would have been presented in court. We have enough to talk about with regards to Trump without going into Speculation Land.
posted by agregoli at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
If Donald Trump had anything he wanted to be considered, he would have had ample opportunity. Alas, the evidence is all one-sided, on the plaintiff's behalf.
Because the case was dropped. By the plaintiff. This is absurd. The defense never presented its case because the plaintiff dropped the case.
Is this bizzaro world?
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Because the case was dropped. By the plaintiff. This is absurd. The defense never presented its case because the plaintiff dropped the case.
Is this bizzaro world?
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
The bill would slash in half the funds that Congress disburses to the State Department for building, securing and maintaining embassies until the embassy opens in Jerusalem
Would that include Benghazi?
posted by srboisvert at 2:11 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Would that include Benghazi?
posted by srboisvert at 2:11 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Would that include Benghazi?
Won't matter. We all know Hillary Clinton personally put on a battlesuit based on stolen designs from Tony Stark and hosed the place down with missiles and lasers. [fake, but see Liberality For All]
posted by mordax at 2:20 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Won't matter. We all know Hillary Clinton personally put on a battlesuit based on stolen designs from Tony Stark and hosed the place down with missiles and lasers. [fake, but see Liberality For All]
posted by mordax at 2:20 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
And the Beirut embassy bombing under Reagan killed 4 times as many Americans as Benghazi. There were no investigations. Reagan went on to sell weapons to Iran after Hezbollah claimed responsibility.
The 1983 Beirut barracks bombings, the deadliest single terrorist attack on American citizens overseas, killed 241 U.S. and 58 French peacekeepers, and six civilians.
That was six months after the embassy bombing, but "U.S. military command, which regarded the Marines’ presence as a non-combative, 'peace-keeping mission,' had left a vehicle gate wide open, and ordered the sentries to keep their weapons unloaded."
There were more than enough opportunities to lay blame for the horrific losses at high U.S. officials’ feet. But unlike today’s Congress, congressmen did not talk of impeaching Ronald Reagan, who was then President, nor were any subpoenas sent to cabinet members. This was true even though then, as now, the opposition party controlled the majority in the House. Tip O’Neill, the Democratic Speaker of the House, was no pushover. He, like today’s opposition leaders in the House, demanded an investigation—but a real one, and only one. Instead of playing it for political points, a House committee undertook a serious investigation into what went wrong at the barracks in Beirut. Two months later, it issued a report finding “very serious errors in judgment” by officers on the ground, as well as responsibility up through the military chain of command, and called for better security measures against terrorism in U.S. government installations throughout the world.Despite the recommendations, 24 people were killed (including 2 Americans) in September 1984 when a car bomber attacked the new embassy before the recommended security measures were put in place. President Reagan commented:
In other words, Congress actually undertook a useful investigation and made helpful recommendations. The report’s findings, by the way, were bipartisan. (The Pentagon, too, launched an investigation, issuing a report that was widely accepted by both parties.)
Anyone that's ever had their kitchen done over knows that it never gets done as soon as you wish it would.He was impeached immediately and removed from office.
Nah, just kidding, he was reelected two months later.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [28 favorites]
For me, it's because of the "until proven guilty" thing.
I am predisposed to believe someone who says they were raped, because, statistically, an overwhelming majority of time they were raped.
I am predisposed to believing it in this case because Trump said on camera that he engages in sexual contact with women without getting consent first.
I am predisposed to believing that he was telling the truth because multiple women confirmed that this had happened to them.
I am predisposed to believing his is capable of rape because Ivana Trump wrote that she was raped by her husband.
But none of this matters, because, as it turns out, you can be a confessed serial abuser of women and still become president. Expecting someone who was raped by him to pursue the case right now is ludicrous, so we will never see this case in court.
But that's academic. I don't care what would have been proven or disproven in court. It's a moot discussion. Nothing needs to be proven in a court of law, because an overwhelming preponderance of evidence has Trump as a serial sexual abuser.
It is impossible to demand that someone take anyone who raped them to court, because out of 1000 rapes, 994 perpetrators will walk free, according to RAINN. That's just for any common rapist.
But here we were dealing with a guy who was already a litigious billionaire. And now we're dealing with a guy who is a litigious billionaire with an army of serial harassers who happens also to be among the most powerful men in the world.
So we're asking that we refrain from judging him for being someone who serially engages in criminal sexual assaults, despite the overwhelming preponderance of evidence, because he cannot be proven to be guilty in a system that consistently fails victims of these crimes, in a trial that cannot possibly happen.
That's not reasonable.
posted by maxsparber at 2:24 PM on January 4, 2017 [49 favorites]
I am predisposed to believe someone who says they were raped, because, statistically, an overwhelming majority of time they were raped.
I am predisposed to believing it in this case because Trump said on camera that he engages in sexual contact with women without getting consent first.
I am predisposed to believing that he was telling the truth because multiple women confirmed that this had happened to them.
I am predisposed to believing his is capable of rape because Ivana Trump wrote that she was raped by her husband.
But none of this matters, because, as it turns out, you can be a confessed serial abuser of women and still become president. Expecting someone who was raped by him to pursue the case right now is ludicrous, so we will never see this case in court.
But that's academic. I don't care what would have been proven or disproven in court. It's a moot discussion. Nothing needs to be proven in a court of law, because an overwhelming preponderance of evidence has Trump as a serial sexual abuser.
It is impossible to demand that someone take anyone who raped them to court, because out of 1000 rapes, 994 perpetrators will walk free, according to RAINN. That's just for any common rapist.
But here we were dealing with a guy who was already a litigious billionaire. And now we're dealing with a guy who is a litigious billionaire with an army of serial harassers who happens also to be among the most powerful men in the world.
So we're asking that we refrain from judging him for being someone who serially engages in criminal sexual assaults, despite the overwhelming preponderance of evidence, because he cannot be proven to be guilty in a system that consistently fails victims of these crimes, in a trial that cannot possibly happen.
That's not reasonable.
posted by maxsparber at 2:24 PM on January 4, 2017 [49 favorites]
So maybe we'll get to see what happens when a Benghazi happens on the Republicans watch..
We've seen it before.
It's insane that Benghazi has risen to the level of 9/11 for purely political purposes (this is criticism of those milking Benghazi, not Coventry for making the comparison).
posted by zutalors! at 2:33 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I wonder how many people who yell about Benghazi even know an embassy was involved. It's just a word to shout, like emails.
posted by Artw at 2:37 PM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:37 PM on January 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
Or corrupt. Or rigged. They're just slogans to hit Democrats with.
posted by Justinian at 2:39 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:39 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Nothing needs to be proven in a court of law, because an overwhelming preponderance of evidence has Trump as a serial sexual abuser.
The only place that "preponderance of evidence" having any legal meaning or force to it would be a court of law, though, right? What does a "reasonable," lawful way to deal with a likely sexual offender look like, outside of the courts?
posted by Rykey at 2:41 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
The only place that "preponderance of evidence" having any legal meaning or force to it would be a court of law, though, right? What does a "reasonable," lawful way to deal with a likely sexual offender look like, outside of the courts?
posted by Rykey at 2:41 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Shunning and so on.
Certainly not voting them into the White House. Which is the Republican response.
posted by Justinian at 2:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
Certainly not voting them into the White House. Which is the Republican response.
posted by Justinian at 2:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
petebest: Who do you read/watch for news?
The truth is; basically this thread. On November 9th I quit skimming all print (NYT/CNN/Guardian) and quit the only news I watched, which came in delicious comedy form via Daily Show, Sam Bee, Colbert, the random Conan. All gone.
The latter is partly because I can't stand to hear anything from the Turdfungus administration set up as "real" even if it's only to joke it down. It's also not funny. For all the joy Jon Stewart brought during Dubz, nothing helped much. And I'm not "riding" that particular train again, anyway - everything continues to be very, very wrong. I don't need someone's "take" on it - on TV anyway.
The mainstream press have consistently failed to counter the deep-six spinning as perfected under Reagan and released into the wild thereafter. I blame them. Most. Not the writers/journalists but the editors and management that continue to wink at everything that's tied to money.
Trump is a disaster of biblical proportions visited on America and the press did so little to stop him in the interest of creating a horse race, I refuse to run to them now.
FWIW the links I've been seeing here go to primary sources (i.e. a pdf of a resolution) or thehill, dailykos, H-dogg's Charles Pierce links, or most often to twitter which - that's another conversation.
People run their lives around media, and as regards news, I'm breaking all the habits I had and encouraging others to do the same. At least this way if a WaPo article is linked I'm not soaking in the bitter, normalizing sauce of the other attendant articles, sections, pop-ups, etc. I'll get in, get out, and go back to something else.
posted by petebest at 2:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
The truth is; basically this thread. On November 9th I quit skimming all print (NYT/CNN/Guardian) and quit the only news I watched, which came in delicious comedy form via Daily Show, Sam Bee, Colbert, the random Conan. All gone.
The latter is partly because I can't stand to hear anything from the Turdfungus administration set up as "real" even if it's only to joke it down. It's also not funny. For all the joy Jon Stewart brought during Dubz, nothing helped much. And I'm not "riding" that particular train again, anyway - everything continues to be very, very wrong. I don't need someone's "take" on it - on TV anyway.
The mainstream press have consistently failed to counter the deep-six spinning as perfected under Reagan and released into the wild thereafter. I blame them. Most. Not the writers/journalists but the editors and management that continue to wink at everything that's tied to money.
Trump is a disaster of biblical proportions visited on America and the press did so little to stop him in the interest of creating a horse race, I refuse to run to them now.
FWIW the links I've been seeing here go to primary sources (i.e. a pdf of a resolution) or thehill, dailykos, H-dogg's Charles Pierce links, or most often to twitter which - that's another conversation.
People run their lives around media, and as regards news, I'm breaking all the habits I had and encouraging others to do the same. At least this way if a WaPo article is linked I'm not soaking in the bitter, normalizing sauce of the other attendant articles, sections, pop-ups, etc. I'll get in, get out, and go back to something else.
posted by petebest at 2:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
Oh, and will sometimes enter a search to a news aggregator when I'm interested enough. "Trump hacking" for example.
posted by petebest at 2:50 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by petebest at 2:50 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Speaking of media....
I don't know how much Seth Myers you guys watch, but the guy has been consistently funny and on point about trump during the weekend update-esque portion of his show.
Man was I bummed when he did a little digital short type thing with Arnold Schwarzeneggar to help him hype his new turn at Celebrity Apprentice. It was funny-ish and cute, but also pandering to trumpville. I get it, NBC etc. But I was kinda hoping Seth could be the new Jon Stewart maybe just maybe.
posted by ian1977 at 2:57 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know how much Seth Myers you guys watch, but the guy has been consistently funny and on point about trump during the weekend update-esque portion of his show.
Man was I bummed when he did a little digital short type thing with Arnold Schwarzeneggar to help him hype his new turn at Celebrity Apprentice. It was funny-ish and cute, but also pandering to trumpville. I get it, NBC etc. But I was kinda hoping Seth could be the new Jon Stewart maybe just maybe.
posted by ian1977 at 2:57 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Justinian: well, of course. I absolutely believe Trump's accusers are telling the truth, for all the reasons folks have cited above. And I'm all for any and all forms of shunning, censure, and other social and professional sanctions. Hell, I'm not even above *ahem* taking care of business oneself, if it's morally justified.
But the idea of the courts—civil or criminal—circumventing due process or the rules of evidence because most accusers aren't lying? Yeah, not so much.
posted by Rykey at 3:12 PM on January 4, 2017
But the idea of the courts—civil or criminal—circumventing due process or the rules of evidence because most accusers aren't lying? Yeah, not so much.
posted by Rykey at 3:12 PM on January 4, 2017
WSJ Donald Trump Plans Revamp of Top U.S. Spy Agency
WASHINGTON—President-elect Donald Trump, a harsh critic of U.S. intelligence agencies, is working with top advisers on a plan that would restructure and pare back the nation’s top spy agency, people familiar with the planning said, prompted by a belief that the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has become bloated and politicized.[...]posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
One of the people familiar with Mr. Trump’s planning said advisers also are working on a plan to restructure the Central Intelligence Agency, cutting back on staffing at its Virginia headquarters and pushing more people out into field posts around the world. The CIA declined to comment on the plan.[...]
Since his November election, Mr. Trump has published close to 250 Twitter posts. Of those, 11 have focused on Russia or the election-related cyberattacks. In each of those tweets, Mr. Trump either has flattered Russian President Vladimir Putin—last month calling him “very smart”— or disparaged the investigation into the hacks.
Group Handing Out Free Marijuana At Inauguration In Push For Federal Legalization
Of course, marijuana may be also useful in helping you tolerate the new Administration...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Of course, marijuana may be also useful in helping you tolerate the new Administration...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
What does a "reasonable," lawful way to deal with a likely sexual offender look like, outside of the courts?
Not buying Trump branded merchandise, not watching his shows, encouraging businesses to divest of any financial relationship with the man, calling shows like SNL out for having him host, Howard Stern for having him as a guest, encouraging the media to include "confessed serial assaulter" in their stories, etc.
That's for someone who isn't president. I don't know what to do with this fucking guy now.
posted by maxsparber at 3:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Not buying Trump branded merchandise, not watching his shows, encouraging businesses to divest of any financial relationship with the man, calling shows like SNL out for having him host, Howard Stern for having him as a guest, encouraging the media to include "confessed serial assaulter" in their stories, etc.
That's for someone who isn't president. I don't know what to do with this fucking guy now.
posted by maxsparber at 3:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
How much would Donald Trump have paid to have his accuser withdraw her case. It cost Bill Clinton $850,000 and his accuser was an adult!
He's gonna have to stiff an awful lot of small contractors to make up for that. I wouldn't be the one mowing the White House lawn right now.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:20 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
He's gonna have to stiff an awful lot of small contractors to make up for that. I wouldn't be the one mowing the White House lawn right now.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:20 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Group Handing Out Free Marijuana At Inauguration In Push For Federal Legalization
Civil disobedience at the inauguration sounds like a great idea, and so does Federal legalization... but if you're going to get yourself arrested it ought to be in the service of something more effective than that.
posted by Coventry at 3:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Civil disobedience at the inauguration sounds like a great idea, and so does Federal legalization... but if you're going to get yourself arrested it ought to be in the service of something more effective than that.
posted by Coventry at 3:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump, a harsh critic of U.S. intelligence agencies, is working with top advisers on a plan that would restructure and pare back the nation’s top spy agency
even i've watched enough spook dramas to know that you don't go to war with the intelligence agencies.
posted by localhuman at 3:37 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
even i've watched enough spook dramas to know that you don't go to war with the intelligence agencies.
posted by localhuman at 3:37 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Regarding Trump and the 13-year-old:
There's a Jewish story about a Polish rabbi who was called to give evidence, and was asked to take an oath. Now, you have to understand that taking G-d's name in vain is considered so seriously in Judaism that traditionally Orthodox Jews would basically not take oaths for personal benefit even when facing great financial loss. The rabbi was willing to give evidence to save an innocent man from jail, but the defense wanted him to be excused from taking an oath.
"Your Honour," he said, "this is a very uncommon man. Why, I understand that when his house was robbed he leaned out of the window and shouted after the thief that he was making a free gift of his goods, because he didn't want his possessions to be the cause of someone's sin."
The judge called the attorney over. "Tell me," he said, "Do you actually believe that story?"
"Frankly, no, your Honour," he replied, "but they don't tell stories like that about you and me."
Anyway, that's how I react to the story about Trump and the 13-year-old. I haven't heard enough to have a firm opinion about it, but it's bad enough that it's not implausible.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
There's a Jewish story about a Polish rabbi who was called to give evidence, and was asked to take an oath. Now, you have to understand that taking G-d's name in vain is considered so seriously in Judaism that traditionally Orthodox Jews would basically not take oaths for personal benefit even when facing great financial loss. The rabbi was willing to give evidence to save an innocent man from jail, but the defense wanted him to be excused from taking an oath.
"Your Honour," he said, "this is a very uncommon man. Why, I understand that when his house was robbed he leaned out of the window and shouted after the thief that he was making a free gift of his goods, because he didn't want his possessions to be the cause of someone's sin."
The judge called the attorney over. "Tell me," he said, "Do you actually believe that story?"
"Frankly, no, your Honour," he replied, "but they don't tell stories like that about you and me."
Anyway, that's how I react to the story about Trump and the 13-year-old. I haven't heard enough to have a firm opinion about it, but it's bad enough that it's not implausible.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:43 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
Trump undeniably bragged about the fun of making surprise dressing room visits at beauty pageants in the "grab 'em by the pussy" tape, and multiple witnesses report him actually doing this at the teen pageant where many of the naked women would be underage. The information about his personal behavior at the functions he held and attended with often underage models giving sexual favors to potential sugar daddies is vague, but the fact that such things were happening when Trump was present is pretty well established. All this adds up to a Mythbusters score of "extremely plausible" for the Trump rape-of-13yo story.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
The truth is; basically this thread.
Thanks, petebest. Always on the lookout for better news sources.
posted by Coventry at 4:04 PM on January 4, 2017
Thanks, petebest. Always on the lookout for better news sources.
posted by Coventry at 4:04 PM on January 4, 2017
even i've watched enough spook dramas to know that you don't go to war with the intelligence agencies.
But, again - what can they really do about it? I assume he plans to rely on the Russian security services from then on.
I mean, he's already arranging a complete handover of the USA to Putin's control, and he's doing it openly.
I assume there is no possible mechanism by which anyone can stop him; and if there is, no-one will do it. The entire nation is going to watch their president-elect give the country away to the enemy and that's it. Pretty soon you won't even be allowed to make sarky remarks about it.
Do I have that right? Anyone got any insights to offer?
posted by tel3path at 4:10 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
But, again - what can they really do about it? I assume he plans to rely on the Russian security services from then on.
I mean, he's already arranging a complete handover of the USA to Putin's control, and he's doing it openly.
I assume there is no possible mechanism by which anyone can stop him; and if there is, no-one will do it. The entire nation is going to watch their president-elect give the country away to the enemy and that's it. Pretty soon you won't even be allowed to make sarky remarks about it.
Do I have that right? Anyone got any insights to offer?
posted by tel3path at 4:10 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
video: McConnell: "The American people simply will not tolerate" Democrats blocking Trump's SCOTUS nominee
I thought that you were linking to this:
Mitch McConnell: ‘One Of My Proudest Moments’ Was Telling Obama I Wouldn’t Do My Job Until He Left. w/video
McConnell gave a speech during the 2016 Fancy Farm picnic and political event in Graves County. Kentucky, where he told the crowd that “one of my proudest moments” was when I told Obama “you will not fill this supreme Court vacancy”.
Truly a vile human.
posted by futz at 4:11 PM on January 4, 2017 [27 favorites]
I thought that you were linking to this:
Mitch McConnell: ‘One Of My Proudest Moments’ Was Telling Obama I Wouldn’t Do My Job Until He Left. w/video
McConnell gave a speech during the 2016 Fancy Farm picnic and political event in Graves County. Kentucky, where he told the crowd that “one of my proudest moments” was when I told Obama “you will not fill this supreme Court vacancy”.
Truly a vile human.
posted by futz at 4:11 PM on January 4, 2017 [27 favorites]
Vile humans do well in the Republican Party. That's why Trump went that way for his Presidential aspirations.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:14 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:14 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well, choosing that shirt wasn't one of his proudest moments.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:19 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:19 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Thanks, petebest. Always on the lookout for better news sources.
The problem is that it's difficult to find a source that will take the already-filtered content of any media outlet and run it through the gauntlet of an intelligent, compassionate and snarky group of people who can... if you will, meta-filter it
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [19 favorites]
The problem is that it's difficult to find a source that will take the already-filtered content of any media outlet and run it through the gauntlet of an intelligent, compassionate and snarky group of people who can... if you will, meta-filter it
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [19 favorites]
All I do is listen to "Gimme Shelter" on repeat now.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:24 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:24 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Well, choosing that shirt wasn't one of his proudest moments.
Ahem. If wearing a shirt with snaps and two snap-button breast pockets is wrong? Then slap my bum and call me a libertarian, I don't want to be right anymore.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:25 PM on January 4, 2017
Ahem. If wearing a shirt with snaps and two snap-button breast pockets is wrong? Then slap my bum and call me a libertarian, I don't want to be right anymore.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:25 PM on January 4, 2017
But, again - what can they really do about it?
Investigate him on the sly and leak everything they can, for one. I mean if they can't get his tax returns, untangle his financial web and find evidence of a million shady things he's done, there's either nothing there or it's beyond anyone's capabilities to find.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:37 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Investigate him on the sly and leak everything they can, for one. I mean if they can't get his tax returns, untangle his financial web and find evidence of a million shady things he's done, there's either nothing there or it's beyond anyone's capabilities to find.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:37 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Poll: Voters in Trump states want Democrats to keep him in check
A poll of voters in red or purple states, conducted for the liberal-leaning Center for American Progress Action Fund, has found a sizable majority willing to back Democrats if they oppose President-elect Donald Trump.
...Yet when quizzed, with language (via pollster Geoff Garin) that couched liberal ideas fairly positively, voters rejected most of the GOP Congress's stated priorities. There was moderate opposition to Trump and Congress's undoing environmental regulations on power plant emissions but sky-high opposition to health-care cuts. Asked whether they would “replace Medicare with private insurance for seniors that costs two thousand dollars more per year on average,” 77 percent said no. Asked whether they would “cut funding for Medicaid, which states use to provide health coverage for low-income individuals and for nursing home care for seniors and the disabled,” 72 percent said no.
posted by futz at 4:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
A poll of voters in red or purple states, conducted for the liberal-leaning Center for American Progress Action Fund, has found a sizable majority willing to back Democrats if they oppose President-elect Donald Trump.
...Yet when quizzed, with language (via pollster Geoff Garin) that couched liberal ideas fairly positively, voters rejected most of the GOP Congress's stated priorities. There was moderate opposition to Trump and Congress's undoing environmental regulations on power plant emissions but sky-high opposition to health-care cuts. Asked whether they would “replace Medicare with private insurance for seniors that costs two thousand dollars more per year on average,” 77 percent said no. Asked whether they would “cut funding for Medicaid, which states use to provide health coverage for low-income individuals and for nursing home care for seniors and the disabled,” 72 percent said no.
posted by futz at 4:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Well if that doesn't work maybe they can have some empathy.
posted by Artw at 4:52 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:52 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Poll: Voters in Trump states want Democrats to keep him in check
then-why-did-you-vote-GOP.gif
dancing-sad-ineffective-donkey.gif
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
then-why-did-you-vote-GOP.gif
dancing-sad-ineffective-donkey.gif
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
We're only supposed to have empathy for racist white people, Artw. Isn't that the message we've been getting since the election? "Won't someone please think of the uneducated white men?"
posted by Justinian at 4:56 PM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:56 PM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
Mitch McConnell now says the American people 'will not tolerate' politicians blocking a Supreme Court nominee
The thing that Republicans do very well is to tell a true lie in black and white terms as soon as possible, phrased in obvious tone, looking like common sense. They can't lose from hypocrisy, and since they know they are bluffing they must create their own indignation. They address the perplexed right out of the gate: the permanently bluffed and indoctrinated; those who think that their white race should bring them prosperity because they have no confidence otherwise; the 100 year-old who watches only five minutes of news a day in a nursing home between naps, but votes by party courier. The right-wing talking point rightly assumes they are addressing the confused, because everyone else is in on the fakery.
posted by Brian B. at 5:00 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
The thing that Republicans do very well is to tell a true lie in black and white terms as soon as possible, phrased in obvious tone, looking like common sense. They can't lose from hypocrisy, and since they know they are bluffing they must create their own indignation. They address the perplexed right out of the gate: the permanently bluffed and indoctrinated; those who think that their white race should bring them prosperity because they have no confidence otherwise; the 100 year-old who watches only five minutes of news a day in a nursing home between naps, but votes by party courier. The right-wing talking point rightly assumes they are addressing the confused, because everyone else is in on the fakery.
posted by Brian B. at 5:00 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
the 20% that makes up the "rural" and "suburban" population, and deliberately excludes the 80% of the country that are "urban"
Who is pushing this meme? This is the third place I've seen it this week.
The U. S. is about a fifth rural, a third urban and a half sub/exurban. Metropolitan Statistical Areas add up to about 80% of the population, as does the population within a hundred miles of the borders if your worried about the Border Patrol searching your laptop. I just don't see any way to add up rural and suburban areas and get less than 50% of the population
posted by ridgerunner at 5:07 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Who is pushing this meme? This is the third place I've seen it this week.
The U. S. is about a fifth rural, a third urban and a half sub/exurban. Metropolitan Statistical Areas add up to about 80% of the population, as does the population within a hundred miles of the borders if your worried about the Border Patrol searching your laptop. I just don't see any way to add up rural and suburban areas and get less than 50% of the population
posted by ridgerunner at 5:07 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm guessing the issue is different definitions of "suburban". Technically, Oak Park, IL is "suburban" but it's an inner-ring, fairly densely-populated suburb that looks and votes a lot like its big "urban" sibling Chicago, and the same is true for most inner-ring suburbs (which hold a significant chunk of the "suburban" population). But the Census Bureau doesn't see things that way.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:15 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:15 PM on January 4, 2017
Trump Voters Explain Themselves
We got dozens of emails from Trump supporters telling us why they voted the way they did, and I have grouped selections of them into general categories below. Though this is not a scientific sample, it covers the bases pretty well.posted by kirkaracha at 5:27 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
One of the people familiar with Mr. Trump’s planning said advisers also are working on a plan to restructure the Central Intelligence Agency
Finally! And when's he gonna do something about that bum Castro? Oh and a real man would disband The Fed, there Donny. They're f---kin with your money. For what??
Also this Joey Two Socks or whatever - not a good look. Not a good look for you, for The President. If only there were some way to show the mob who's boss, y'know? Oh well, I guess no one can outsmart them, amirite? Okay, you're alright Donny, you're alright. Gotta run, lets lunch!
Shhhh! Shh! Get down! Get down!
Ho-lee shit this is gonna be epic.
posted by petebest at 5:36 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Finally! And when's he gonna do something about that bum Castro? Oh and a real man would disband The Fed, there Donny. They're f---kin with your money. For what??
Also this Joey Two Socks or whatever - not a good look. Not a good look for you, for The President. If only there were some way to show the mob who's boss, y'know? Oh well, I guess no one can outsmart them, amirite? Okay, you're alright Donny, you're alright. Gotta run, lets lunch!
Shhhh! Shh! Get down! Get down!
Ho-lee shit this is gonna be epic.
posted by petebest at 5:36 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
We got dozens of emails from Trump supporters telling us why they voted the way they did, and I have grouped selections of them into general categories below. Though this is not a scientific sample, it covers the bases pretty well.
Yeah, ok, there has never been a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:44 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yeah, ok, there has never been a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:44 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
He's even more proactive than you thought, petebest! I can reveal that Castro is already dead.
posted by tel3path at 5:46 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by tel3path at 5:46 PM on January 4, 2017
The Office of Management and Budget has the tightest definition of rural at 15% of the population, I don't know of any definition of suburban that reduces it to 5% of the population.
posted by ridgerunner at 5:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ridgerunner at 5:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I honestly wonder if there aren't Republicans who sit around wanting to take away health care from people and watching their President get Nazi salutes and thinking of new ways to punish women for having sex and then have a Mitchell and Webb-esque "Are we the baddies" moment. Then I realize none of them have ever watched Mitchell and Webb because those guys are foreigners.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:47 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I can reveal that Castro is already dead.
No, no, not that one. The other one. Roger, or whatever. What, you're gonna leave a Castro unbagged? Tsk tsk! Mmmm. Mmmm.
posted by petebest at 5:52 PM on January 4, 2017
No, no, not that one. The other one. Roger, or whatever. What, you're gonna leave a Castro unbagged? Tsk tsk! Mmmm. Mmmm.
posted by petebest at 5:52 PM on January 4, 2017
There's another Castro? Why didn't they tell him this at the intelligence briefing? now he'll have to start all over again
posted by tel3path at 6:01 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 6:01 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trump Voters Explain Themselves
Just, y'know, content warning - the letters they got are just about as horrible as you would expect.
Seriously, the Deadspin folks wasted a bunch of time categorizing the responses, since they all at their (obvious) core are one of:
1) "Fuck You, people who are not like me!!!"
2) "MOAR for me! Me ME ME!"
3) "Jesus is a Republican."
posted by soundguy99 at 6:03 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Just, y'know, content warning - the letters they got are just about as horrible as you would expect.
Seriously, the Deadspin folks wasted a bunch of time categorizing the responses, since they all at their (obvious) core are one of:
1) "Fuck You, people who are not like me!!!"
2) "MOAR for me! Me ME ME!"
3) "Jesus is a Republican."
posted by soundguy99 at 6:03 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
One of the people familiar with Mr. Trump’s planning said advisers also are working on a plan to restructure the Central Intelligence Agency
Now we know what Putin's ask was.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:05 PM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
Now we know what Putin's ask was.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:05 PM on January 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
And here I was thinking that the Comey intervention was going to serve as a pretext to reorganize the secret police / domestic intelligence service. But I guess he probably needs a running start for that.
Maybe he can even get people who would cause difficulties for future changes to the FBI out of the way by moving them to the restructured CIA first.
posted by XMLicious at 6:23 PM on January 4, 2017
Maybe he can even get people who would cause difficulties for future changes to the FBI out of the way by moving them to the restructured CIA first.
posted by XMLicious at 6:23 PM on January 4, 2017
My mom just sent me an e-mail that the Jewish pre-school that she teaches out was the target of some serious threats today. I realize that this kind of stuff has always happened, but it seems a little darker now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:24 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:24 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's worth noting that the CIA already went through a punitive restructuring in the Bush administration, for all the leaks about 9/11 and the Iraq war/WMD. They lost a lot of influence as a result.
Russia isn't necessary to explain it, just Trump's vengefulness.
posted by Coventry at 6:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Russia isn't necessary to explain it, just Trump's vengefulness.
posted by Coventry at 6:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
[JAN 4, 9:02 PM] U.S. obtained evidence after election that Russia leaked emails: officials
U.S. intelligence agencies obtained what they considered to be conclusive evidence after the November election that Russia provided hacked material from the Democratic National Committee to WikiLeaks through a third party, three U.S. officials said on Wednesday.
U.S. officials had concluded months earlier that Russian intelligence agencies had directed the hacking, but had been less certain that they could prove Russia also had controlled the release of information damaging to Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.
The timing of the additional intelligence is important because U.S. President Barack Obama has faced criticism from his own party over why it took his administration months to respond to the cyber attack. U.S. Senate and House leaders, including prominent Republicans, have also called for an inquiry.
posted by futz at 6:35 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
U.S. intelligence agencies obtained what they considered to be conclusive evidence after the November election that Russia provided hacked material from the Democratic National Committee to WikiLeaks through a third party, three U.S. officials said on Wednesday.
U.S. officials had concluded months earlier that Russian intelligence agencies had directed the hacking, but had been less certain that they could prove Russia also had controlled the release of information damaging to Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.
The timing of the additional intelligence is important because U.S. President Barack Obama has faced criticism from his own party over why it took his administration months to respond to the cyber attack. U.S. Senate and House leaders, including prominent Republicans, have also called for an inquiry.
posted by futz at 6:35 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
The restructuring of the DNI, and the agencies under it -- including the CIA -- goes hand in hand with moving the Homeland Security Advisor back to the Cabinet-level and removing the domestic security services from the DNI's control.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:48 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:48 PM on January 4, 2017
NEW: Declassified version of intel report on Russia & hacking is scheduled to be released to public on Monday around 2pm~US official to @NPR
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
Texas: The discriminatory bathroom bill now has a number: #SB6
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:58 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:58 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Cartoonist Jen Sorenson has a nicely on-point toon about the Left blaming the Left (with an explanatory blog if it's not clear enough).
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:19 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:19 PM on January 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
Republicans have engineered a way to mostly eliminate the mortgage interest deduction, hurting home values for the middle- and upper-middle-class, while leaving the luxury market comparatively unscathed. Welcome to the Trump years.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
The Democratic National Committee tells BuzzFeed News that the bureau “never requested access” to the servers the White House and intelligence community say were hacked by Russia.
Six months after the FBI first said it was investigating the hack of the Democratic National Committee’s computer network, the bureau has still not requested access to the hacked servers, a DNC spokesman said. No US government entity has run an independent forensic analysis on the system, one US intelligence official told...
“The DNC had several meetings with representatives of the FBI’s Cyber Division and its Washington (DC) Field Office, the Department of Justice’s National Security Division, and U.S. Attorney’s Offices, and it responded to a variety of requests for cooperation, but the FBI never requested access to the DNC’s computer servers,” Eric Walker, the DNC’s deputy communications director...
The FBI has instead relied on computer forensics from a third-party tech security company, CrowdStrike, which first determined in March of last year that the DNC’s servers had been infiltrated by Russia-linked hackers...
...BuzzFeed News spoke to three cybersecurity companies who have worked on major breaches in the last 15 months, who said that it was “par for the course” for the FBI to do their own forensic research into the hacks...
So is it SOP for the FBI to hand this kind of investigation off to a third party or not?
posted by futz at 7:34 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Six months after the FBI first said it was investigating the hack of the Democratic National Committee’s computer network, the bureau has still not requested access to the hacked servers, a DNC spokesman said. No US government entity has run an independent forensic analysis on the system, one US intelligence official told...
“The DNC had several meetings with representatives of the FBI’s Cyber Division and its Washington (DC) Field Office, the Department of Justice’s National Security Division, and U.S. Attorney’s Offices, and it responded to a variety of requests for cooperation, but the FBI never requested access to the DNC’s computer servers,” Eric Walker, the DNC’s deputy communications director...
The FBI has instead relied on computer forensics from a third-party tech security company, CrowdStrike, which first determined in March of last year that the DNC’s servers had been infiltrated by Russia-linked hackers...
...BuzzFeed News spoke to three cybersecurity companies who have worked on major breaches in the last 15 months, who said that it was “par for the course” for the FBI to do their own forensic research into the hacks...
So is it SOP for the FBI to hand this kind of investigation off to a third party or not?
posted by futz at 7:34 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Silicon Valley execs are staffing 3 a.m. emergency teams - just in case Trump targets their company with a morning tweet
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:48 PM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Republicans have engineered a way to mostly eliminate the mortgage interest deduction, hurting home values for the middle- and upper-middle-class, while leaving the luxury market comparatively unscathed. Welcome to the Trump years.
This is so ridiculously dishonest. Technically it means the lower and middle class get a bigger deduction, and the upper-middle class realize that regressive taxes aren't fun when they're the ones being fucked. Whether it actually teaches them a lesson is another question entirely.
I mean, sure, this affects me directly and it's kind of annoying because upper-middle class earners are the nation's piggy bank right now but my anger is for the rich who are going to cash in not the poor people who are being given a hell of a break that will absolutely change their lives.
posted by Talez at 8:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
This is so ridiculously dishonest. Technically it means the lower and middle class get a bigger deduction, and the upper-middle class realize that regressive taxes aren't fun when they're the ones being fucked. Whether it actually teaches them a lesson is another question entirely.
I mean, sure, this affects me directly and it's kind of annoying because upper-middle class earners are the nation's piggy bank right now but my anger is for the rich who are going to cash in not the poor people who are being given a hell of a break that will absolutely change their lives.
posted by Talez at 8:02 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, increasing the standard deduction seems like a positive thing to me.
That one thing alone would not hurt anyone's taxes, the article is arguing that people won't buy homes if they don't benefit from the mortgage deduction or something. But what it will do is help equalize renters and homeowners a little more, as currently homeowners are getting an extra break (and in many places, "homeowner" means upper-middle-class or above, when median home prices are above half a million).
Increasing the standard deduction seems like a solid move, IMO. Now, it's coupled with a ton of things I wouldn't want to happen, so I'm not saying the Republicans proposed budget/tax stuff is good, but that one piece is fine/good.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:08 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
That one thing alone would not hurt anyone's taxes, the article is arguing that people won't buy homes if they don't benefit from the mortgage deduction or something. But what it will do is help equalize renters and homeowners a little more, as currently homeowners are getting an extra break (and in many places, "homeowner" means upper-middle-class or above, when median home prices are above half a million).
Increasing the standard deduction seems like a solid move, IMO. Now, it's coupled with a ton of things I wouldn't want to happen, so I'm not saying the Republicans proposed budget/tax stuff is good, but that one piece is fine/good.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:08 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's like the upper-middle class version of "why should I earn another dollar if the government is going to take 33 cents instead of 31?"
It's a stupid and facile argument.
posted by Talez at 8:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's a stupid and facile argument.
posted by Talez at 8:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
We should completely eliminate the mortgage income tax deduction. It is absolutely terrible policy.
posted by Justinian at 8:15 PM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:15 PM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
"mortgage interest", yes?
posted by j_curiouser at 8:31 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by j_curiouser at 8:31 PM on January 4, 2017
Trump Prepping Ominous Moves to Gut US Intel Capacity: "This can worry you because of what crazy ideas or wars might be cooked up on the basis of bogus intelligence. Or you might be worried that gutted intelligence agencies, disrupted and low on morale don't tend to be good at catching real threats - as opposed to imaginary ones. Whichever reason you pick, you should be worried."
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:31 PM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Increasing the standard deduction seems like a solid move, IMO.
Don't be fooled. This is exactly what the Republicans want you to think. They are throwing you a tiny bone worth a few hundred dollars while the rich get tax breaks worth hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars. This is the starve the beast strategy which will create enormous deficits and justification for gutting Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, food stamps, college loans and every other social welfare policy.
Don't fall for the Trump scam. Tax cuts are not your friend, no matter what they seem at first glance.
posted by JackFlash at 8:50 PM on January 4, 2017 [41 favorites]
Don't be fooled. This is exactly what the Republicans want you to think. They are throwing you a tiny bone worth a few hundred dollars while the rich get tax breaks worth hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars. This is the starve the beast strategy which will create enormous deficits and justification for gutting Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, food stamps, college loans and every other social welfare policy.
Don't fall for the Trump scam. Tax cuts are not your friend, no matter what they seem at first glance.
posted by JackFlash at 8:50 PM on January 4, 2017 [41 favorites]
Yes, the deduction should be eliminated, but it needs to be done with a reeeeally long phase-out. Simply doubling the standard deduction immediately will cause a major shock to the housing market and probably slide us back into a recession. The government should never have been in the business of pushing people toward home ownership, but since it is, it can't just stop without giving home owners to a soft landing.
Polotically, it's brilliantly evil. Wedge issue to divide the left between owners and renters, looks like tax relief to those who don't know better, and of course the benefits accrue to the wealthy. Good show, Republicans.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:55 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Polotically, it's brilliantly evil. Wedge issue to divide the left between owners and renters, looks like tax relief to those who don't know better, and of course the benefits accrue to the wealthy. Good show, Republicans.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:55 PM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
It also dovetails with the strategy in red states to shift the tax burden onto regressive indirect taxes because "everyone needs to have skin in the game" (i.e. hate paying taxes, thus support killing public services).
posted by holgate at 9:17 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by holgate at 9:17 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes, the deduction should be eliminated, but it needs to be done with a reeeeally long phase-out.
Less long than you might think. According to the Census bureau, only 37% of homeowners live in their homes more than 10 years and the median is only about 6 years. For people planning to live long term in their houses, what do they care what the market thinks if they aren't selling anyway. Over the long term other market conditions have more influence on the value of their homes than the mortgage interest deduction.
Phasing out over a 5 to 10 year period should be acceptable. Currently 77% of the benefits of the mortgage interest deduction go to those making over $100,000 a year. The $80 billion cost of this welfare for the rich could be better directed to those with lower incomes.
posted by JackFlash at 9:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
Less long than you might think. According to the Census bureau, only 37% of homeowners live in their homes more than 10 years and the median is only about 6 years. For people planning to live long term in their houses, what do they care what the market thinks if they aren't selling anyway. Over the long term other market conditions have more influence on the value of their homes than the mortgage interest deduction.
Phasing out over a 5 to 10 year period should be acceptable. Currently 77% of the benefits of the mortgage interest deduction go to those making over $100,000 a year. The $80 billion cost of this welfare for the rich could be better directed to those with lower incomes.
posted by JackFlash at 9:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
Currently 77% of the benefits of the mortgage interest deduction go to those making over $100,000 a year. The $80 billion cost of this welfare for the rich could be better directed to those with lower incomes.
That's a great point, and I really look forward to seeing this tackled by President Clinton and the Democratic Sen– oh, fuck.
posted by contraption at 10:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's a great point, and I really look forward to seeing this tackled by President Clinton and the Democratic Sen– oh, fuck.
posted by contraption at 10:53 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
in many places, 'homeowner' means upper-middle-class or above, when median home prices are above half a million
Yeah, not in the Bay Area. Prices for tiny houses are well above half a million.
Currently 77% of the benefits of the mortgage interest deduction go to those making over $100,000 a year.
$100,000 a year isn't rich in the Bay Area. Maybe not even upper-middle-class.
the article is arguing that people won't buy homes if they don't benefit from the mortgage deduction or something
We wouldn't have bought our home without the mortgage deduction. Not really feeling like we're getting welfare for the rich.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:13 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's inarguable that you're getting a wealth transfer from non-homeowners, though. Which is as stated above really terrible policy. But, yeah, there would have to be a short term transition period of probably 7-10 years.
posted by Justinian at 11:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 11:18 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, not in the Bay Area.
Precisely. Different people in different jurisdictions have different concerns and stressors.
Home ownership is much more affordable in other locations in the USA.
posted by porpoise at 11:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Precisely. Different people in different jurisdictions have different concerns and stressors.
Home ownership is much more affordable in other locations in the USA.
posted by porpoise at 11:22 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Per Google, the population of the San Francisco Bay Area, the most expensive real estate market in America (and thus not really a fair example), is 7.65M, and that's being really generous (that's the population of a whopping NINE-county area). That's about 2.5% of the US population.
So it's kiiiiinda special-snowflake-ish to say "hey, wait, stop! But but but BAY AREA!"
Oh, and my wife and I are currently contemplating a move to the Bay area from the East Coast (she's originally from the Bay), so I'm not speaking as some California-hating outsider. I quite like California, actually.
(That said, I'm witnessing our buying power evaporate before my eyes. Despite the fact that we can afford to spend nearly triple what I paid for the house we currently live in here in Baltimore. But it Doesn't. Fucking. Matter. The Bay will take every penny you have and piss it away. And on top of that, Trump's emergence has the banks eagerly jacking up interest rates. Yeah, just kill me now.)
posted by CommonSense at 11:23 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
So it's kiiiiinda special-snowflake-ish to say "hey, wait, stop! But but but BAY AREA!"
Oh, and my wife and I are currently contemplating a move to the Bay area from the East Coast (she's originally from the Bay), so I'm not speaking as some California-hating outsider. I quite like California, actually.
(That said, I'm witnessing our buying power evaporate before my eyes. Despite the fact that we can afford to spend nearly triple what I paid for the house we currently live in here in Baltimore. But it Doesn't. Fucking. Matter. The Bay will take every penny you have and piss it away. And on top of that, Trump's emergence has the banks eagerly jacking up interest rates. Yeah, just kill me now.)
posted by CommonSense at 11:23 PM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump, a harsh critic of U.S. intelligence agencies, is working with top advisers on a plan that would restructure and pare back the nation’s top spy agency
Fixed.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:26 AM on January 5, 2017
Fixed.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:26 AM on January 5, 2017
The thing that Republicans do very well is to tell a true lie in black and white terms as soon as possible, phrased in obvious tone, looking like common sense.
I had not watched any Fox News in a long time. I haven't had TV in over a year and a half, and of course even when I did, I never watched Fox News. But I'd see it in doctors' offices every once in a while. But today I was in a restaurant where it was on, and the CC was on, and for my whole meal I kept turning to it. As far as I can tell their entire format is Unidentified Talking Head making outright false or blatantly partisan biased statements as if they were entirely obvious. As far as I could tell there was never an attempt at explaining why I should trust the Unidentified Talking Head's opinion or analysis on Obamacare or Why All The Stars Are Afraid of Evil Liberals and That's Why They're Not Playing the Inauguration or Why Trump will straighten out those GOP lawmakers.
Like, I don't think I really realized that Fox was just One Point of View (and the anchor) talking at you. I'm used to the "mainstream" sources where it's at "both sides" yelling at each other (which I despise.) But damn this Obamacare stuff sure sounds bad according to That Guy on the TV (whose identity I have no clue about.) So yes, if this is what you hear all day OF COURSE you believe it. You can't be human and listen to people tell you things over and over again and not believe it at least a little. Especially things you don't understand or have no personal experience with.
posted by threeturtles at 12:50 AM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
I had not watched any Fox News in a long time. I haven't had TV in over a year and a half, and of course even when I did, I never watched Fox News. But I'd see it in doctors' offices every once in a while. But today I was in a restaurant where it was on, and the CC was on, and for my whole meal I kept turning to it. As far as I can tell their entire format is Unidentified Talking Head making outright false or blatantly partisan biased statements as if they were entirely obvious. As far as I could tell there was never an attempt at explaining why I should trust the Unidentified Talking Head's opinion or analysis on Obamacare or Why All The Stars Are Afraid of Evil Liberals and That's Why They're Not Playing the Inauguration or Why Trump will straighten out those GOP lawmakers.
Like, I don't think I really realized that Fox was just One Point of View (and the anchor) talking at you. I'm used to the "mainstream" sources where it's at "both sides" yelling at each other (which I despise.) But damn this Obamacare stuff sure sounds bad according to That Guy on the TV (whose identity I have no clue about.) So yes, if this is what you hear all day OF COURSE you believe it. You can't be human and listen to people tell you things over and over again and not believe it at least a little. Especially things you don't understand or have no personal experience with.
posted by threeturtles at 12:50 AM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
$100,000 a year isn't rich in the Bay Area. Maybe not even upper-middle-class.
I agree, and this isn't to say that the Bay Area is not insanely expensive, etc. and I know that your ridiculous housing market sucks up most of the difference in wages between your salaries and salaries for comparable jobs elsewhere but -- the median household income for the Bay Area was only $79,624 (.pdf) in 2013. It looks like it was going up about 4K/year at that point, so maybe it's closer to 80 or 85K now, but still.
Again, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad or to say that feeling financially stressed in this situation is inappropriate.
Just remember that the majority of Bay Area households earn less than that. Many earn far less.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:55 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I agree, and this isn't to say that the Bay Area is not insanely expensive, etc. and I know that your ridiculous housing market sucks up most of the difference in wages between your salaries and salaries for comparable jobs elsewhere but -- the median household income for the Bay Area was only $79,624 (.pdf) in 2013. It looks like it was going up about 4K/year at that point, so maybe it's closer to 80 or 85K now, but still.
Again, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad or to say that feeling financially stressed in this situation is inappropriate.
Just remember that the majority of Bay Area households earn less than that. Many earn far less.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:55 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
For people planning to live long term in their houses, what do they care what the market thinks if they aren't selling anyway.
Because a lot of those people expect their homes to appreciate and allow them to refinance, take equity out in crisis, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:21 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Because a lot of those people expect their homes to appreciate and allow them to refinance, take equity out in crisis, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:21 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Who is pushing this meme? This is the third place I've seen it this week.
The US Census Bureau:
The U. S. is about a fifth rural, a third urban and a half sub/exurban.
Even if you define the entire range of "urban clusters" (which is 2,500 all the way up to 50,000 residents within incorporated areas) as suburban or exurban, that still leaves 71% of the US with 50,000 people or more in those areas.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:10 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
The US Census Bureau:
Urban areas — defined as densely developed residential, commercial and other nonresidential areas -- now account for 80.7 percent of the U.S. population, up from 79.0 percent in 2000. Although the rural population -- the population in any areas outside of those classified as “urban” — grew by a modest amount from 2000 to 2010, it continued to decline as a percentage of the national population.So it's not a meme, and it's not being "pushed." You want to disagree, take it up with them.
The U. S. is about a fifth rural, a third urban and a half sub/exurban.
Even if you define the entire range of "urban clusters" (which is 2,500 all the way up to 50,000 residents within incorporated areas) as suburban or exurban, that still leaves 71% of the US with 50,000 people or more in those areas.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:10 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Anecdote about people leaving the U.S.
My SO's kid has about five close friends who stick together because they're computer geniuses and have related interests. All of his friends (all parents with computer programmers) are moving to Canada or have already left for Canada.
This is in Montgomery County, one if not the richest counties of PA, in Philly suburb, and I get that computer programmers have more latitude about where they can move to w/r/t their job, but still, any time I think of the little things I'm hearing from his high school (white kids chanting Trump in the halls, fights in the restrooms between Trump and HRC supporters), I'm like, am I in a bubble, or have we been here before?
Have we been here before? It's an honest question. Of course we've have fascist movements and of course slavery and of course the Civil War, but have we ever seen a group of extremists put into power with all these issues on the board, up to and including foreign interference in the election.
I mean, I'm no historian, but I keep groping for parallels in American history and while yes I am aware that the Civil War happened, that shit was baked into the Constitutional cake. Maybe this is too, and I'm just experiencing current-event myopia?
And given all of the above, is the dread I'm feeling about something nasty going down Inauguration Day weekend (I'll be there and to steal a line from somebody in a Metatalk thread, my name is Julie and I live in Philly come and get me) a bunch of maybe understandable jim-jams but Hey This Is America and Things Like a YUGE Inauguration Day Riot well that's for other countries?
I mean either way I'll be there and only wish I had a pussyhat. I am planning to do something with fake hubcaps on my wheelchair wheels so maybe a Vagina Dentata shield.
At any rate Angrycat Status Level: freaked.
posted by angrycat at 3:21 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
My SO's kid has about five close friends who stick together because they're computer geniuses and have related interests. All of his friends (all parents with computer programmers) are moving to Canada or have already left for Canada.
This is in Montgomery County, one if not the richest counties of PA, in Philly suburb, and I get that computer programmers have more latitude about where they can move to w/r/t their job, but still, any time I think of the little things I'm hearing from his high school (white kids chanting Trump in the halls, fights in the restrooms between Trump and HRC supporters), I'm like, am I in a bubble, or have we been here before?
Have we been here before? It's an honest question. Of course we've have fascist movements and of course slavery and of course the Civil War, but have we ever seen a group of extremists put into power with all these issues on the board, up to and including foreign interference in the election.
I mean, I'm no historian, but I keep groping for parallels in American history and while yes I am aware that the Civil War happened, that shit was baked into the Constitutional cake. Maybe this is too, and I'm just experiencing current-event myopia?
And given all of the above, is the dread I'm feeling about something nasty going down Inauguration Day weekend (I'll be there and to steal a line from somebody in a Metatalk thread, my name is Julie and I live in Philly come and get me) a bunch of maybe understandable jim-jams but Hey This Is America and Things Like a YUGE Inauguration Day Riot well that's for other countries?
I mean either way I'll be there and only wish I had a pussyhat. I am planning to do something with fake hubcaps on my wheelchair wheels so maybe a Vagina Dentata shield.
At any rate Angrycat Status Level: freaked.
posted by angrycat at 3:21 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
the 20% that makes up the "rural" and "suburban" population, and deliberately excludes the 80% of the country that are "urban"
Urban areas — defined as densely developed residential, commercial and other nonresidential areas -- now account for 80.7 percent of the U.S. population,... Although the rural population -- the population in any areas outside of those classified as "urban"
You want to disagree, take it up with them
Nothing to disagree with, that definition of rural is 19.3% of the population. No reasonable definition of suburban will result in 0.7% of the population, making rural plus suburban equal 20% an error.
posted by ridgerunner at 5:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Urban areas — defined as densely developed residential, commercial and other nonresidential areas -- now account for 80.7 percent of the U.S. population,... Although the rural population -- the population in any areas outside of those classified as "urban"
You want to disagree, take it up with them
Nothing to disagree with, that definition of rural is 19.3% of the population. No reasonable definition of suburban will result in 0.7% of the population, making rural plus suburban equal 20% an error.
posted by ridgerunner at 5:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nothing to disagree with, that definition of rural is 19.3% of the population. No reasonable definition of suburban will result in 0.7% of the population, making rural plus suburban equal 20% an error.
Again, Census Bureau's metrics, not mine. And it's far less of an error than the claim that urban areas are only half the population and suburban areas are a third. All of which is besides the point, anyway, because the rural and much of the suburban citizens already have representation and power in both state and federal government's wildly out of proportion to their share of the population. The recent election is a stark illustration of that. Thus, my original assertion that giving them even more power and representation, using the same terms as the systemic white supremacy from throughout US history, is dangerous and shouldn't be considered a neutral descriptor, let alone a positive one.
Look, the guy who was just elected ran explicitly by portraying the rural demographic as noble, salt-of-the-earth people fighting against the degenerate, corrupt savages of the cities. His campaign manager and effective "power behind the throne" believes in the genetic inferiority of certain races and cultures, and the candidate made sure that that meant PoC, Jews, LGBTQ people, and just plain-old believers in social justice wasn't even subtextual. Both of these concepts are the foundations of the ideology behind the people who control the reins of power in most of the country. There is an entire city of over 670,000 people who essentially have no representation at all, and won't receive it unless we give even more power and unequal representation to rural areas. The fact that that city has had a majority-PoC population for the better part of a century, including through the original civil rights era, isn't just a coincidence.
You can't just separate all of that context and history out of the equation by talking up less than a third of the country and refusing to address the effect their disproportionate power has had over vast majority of the country as if it's some kind of value-neutral ideology. It's not, we shouldn't be tiptoe-ing around that fact. Bringing up ideas such as focusing on the rural and suburban areas, and property equaling power, then attempting to rules-lawyer while not acknowledging what that has meant for the entire history of this country, and still means today, is part of the problem.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:45 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Again, Census Bureau's metrics, not mine. And it's far less of an error than the claim that urban areas are only half the population and suburban areas are a third. All of which is besides the point, anyway, because the rural and much of the suburban citizens already have representation and power in both state and federal government's wildly out of proportion to their share of the population. The recent election is a stark illustration of that. Thus, my original assertion that giving them even more power and representation, using the same terms as the systemic white supremacy from throughout US history, is dangerous and shouldn't be considered a neutral descriptor, let alone a positive one.
Look, the guy who was just elected ran explicitly by portraying the rural demographic as noble, salt-of-the-earth people fighting against the degenerate, corrupt savages of the cities. His campaign manager and effective "power behind the throne" believes in the genetic inferiority of certain races and cultures, and the candidate made sure that that meant PoC, Jews, LGBTQ people, and just plain-old believers in social justice wasn't even subtextual. Both of these concepts are the foundations of the ideology behind the people who control the reins of power in most of the country. There is an entire city of over 670,000 people who essentially have no representation at all, and won't receive it unless we give even more power and unequal representation to rural areas. The fact that that city has had a majority-PoC population for the better part of a century, including through the original civil rights era, isn't just a coincidence.
You can't just separate all of that context and history out of the equation by talking up less than a third of the country and refusing to address the effect their disproportionate power has had over vast majority of the country as if it's some kind of value-neutral ideology. It's not, we shouldn't be tiptoe-ing around that fact. Bringing up ideas such as focusing on the rural and suburban areas, and property equaling power, then attempting to rules-lawyer while not acknowledging what that has meant for the entire history of this country, and still means today, is part of the problem.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:45 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Yet another study showing Trump voters really are basically deplorables.
Study: racism and sexism predict support for Trump much more than economic dissatisfaction
Study: racism and sexism predict support for Trump much more than economic dissatisfaction
Following Donald Trump’s election, the media tried to identify several indicators for why he won. Was it the opioid painkiller and heroin epidemic? Poor health outcomes? The economy?posted by chris24 at 6:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [26 favorites]
A new paper by political scientists Brian Schaffner, Matthew MacWilliams, and Tatishe Nteta puts the blame back on the same factors people pointed to before the election: racism and sexism. And the research has a very telling chart to prove it, showing that voters’ measures of sexism and racism correlated much more closely with support for Trump than economic dissatisfaction after controlling for factors like partisanship and political ideology.
As the paper acknowledges, clearly economic dissatisfaction was one factor — and in an election in which Trump essentially won by just 80,000 votes in three states, maybe that, along with issues like the opioid epidemic and poor health outcomes, was enough to put Trump over the top. But the analysis also shows that a bulk of support for Trump — perhaps what made him a contender to begin with — came from beliefs rooted in racism and sexism.
Specifically, the researchers conclude that racism and sexism explain most of Trump’s enormous electoral advantage with non-college-educated white Americans, the group that arguably gave Trump the election. “We find that while economic dissatisfaction was part of the story, racism and sexism were much more important and can explain about two-thirds of the education gap among whites in the 2016 presidential vote,” the researchers write.
I mean either way I'll be there and only wish I had a pussyhat.
You know, as soon as I have a car this week I'm running out to get some pink yarn to make myself one. (I have red and orange in my stash, but no pink! Disaster!) Do you want me to make you one too? I'll be in DC early, so I could meet up with you to make sure you have it for the March; or if you march in your home state at one of the sister marches, maybe I can help you find one from someone local in case I can't get you one in time from Texas.
They look like fast knits, and I bet I can turn out a few by the time I leave for DC in a week and a half. And hey, I think I just saw someone boarding the bus wearing one!
posted by sciatrix at 6:07 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
You know, as soon as I have a car this week I'm running out to get some pink yarn to make myself one. (I have red and orange in my stash, but no pink! Disaster!) Do you want me to make you one too? I'll be in DC early, so I could meet up with you to make sure you have it for the March; or if you march in your home state at one of the sister marches, maybe I can help you find one from someone local in case I can't get you one in time from Texas.
They look like fast knits, and I bet I can turn out a few by the time I leave for DC in a week and a half. And hey, I think I just saw someone boarding the bus wearing one!
posted by sciatrix at 6:07 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Russians are already producing Trump-Putin bromance memorabilia. Quite a sight to behold.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:14 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:14 AM on January 5, 2017
You know what, fuck it; we need an IRL. MeFites March on Washington. Here's a space to coordinate with folks at the national March. Please feel free to steal format if you want to connect with folks at one of the state sister Marches.
posted by sciatrix at 6:20 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 6:20 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
(Nigel) Farage to sing 'Happy Birthday, Mr President' at Trump inauguration.
posted by Wordshore at 6:22 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by Wordshore at 6:22 AM on January 5, 2017
Harvard Law Review, The President’s Role in Advancing Criminal Justice Reform, Commentary by Barack Obama
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:34 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:34 AM on January 5, 2017
20 minutes between tweets!!!
@realdonaldtrump
The dishonest media likes saying that I am in Agreement with Julian Assange - wrong. I simply state what he states, it is for the people....
to make up their own minds as to the truth. The media lies to make it look like I am against "Intelligence" when in fact I am a big fan!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:40 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
@realdonaldtrump
The dishonest media likes saying that I am in Agreement with Julian Assange - wrong. I simply state what he states, it is for the people....
to make up their own minds as to the truth. The media lies to make it look like I am against "Intelligence" when in fact I am a big fan!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:40 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, he's on a roll or Adderall - an Adderoll? - this morning. Eight minutes after this genius first tweet - notice lead instead of led - calling the Senate Minority Leader and Democrats clowns, he asked for Republicans and Democrats to come together to fix healthcare. Also interesting how manic he and the GOP are getting about slamming Obamacare. It's clear they know they're going to pay a huge price for repealing.
@realDonaldTrump
The Democrats, lead by head clown Chuck Schumer, know how bad ObamaCare is and what a mess they are in. Instead of working to fix it, they..
...do the typical political thing and BLAME. The fact is ObamaCare was a lie from the beginning."Keep you doctor, keep your plan!" It is....
...time for Republicans & Democrats to get together and come up with a healthcare plan that really works - much less expensive & FAR BETTER!
posted by chris24 at 6:46 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
The Democrats, lead by head clown Chuck Schumer, know how bad ObamaCare is and what a mess they are in. Instead of working to fix it, they..
...do the typical political thing and BLAME. The fact is ObamaCare was a lie from the beginning."Keep you doctor, keep your plan!" It is....
...time for Republicans & Democrats to get together and come up with a healthcare plan that really works - much less expensive & FAR BETTER!
posted by chris24 at 6:46 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
racism and sexism were much more important and can explain about two-thirds of the education gap among whites in the 2016 presidential vote,
By the time I was 31, I'd learned I will never outlive this shit.
We won't see a female president in my lifetime.
Fuck this timeline. Fuck whoever stepped on that goddamn butterfly.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 6:46 AM on January 5, 2017 [44 favorites]
By the time I was 31, I'd learned I will never outlive this shit.
We won't see a female president in my lifetime.
Fuck this timeline. Fuck whoever stepped on that goddamn butterfly.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 6:46 AM on January 5, 2017 [44 favorites]
Again, Census Bureau's metrics, not mine
The Census Bureau does not use suburban as a metric. They don't even define it.
And it's far less of an error than the claim that urban areas are only half the population and suburban areas are a third.
Exactly the opposite of what I said.
Maybe FiveThirtyEight can get the point across, the whole article is pretty good.
It turns out that many cities’ legal boundaries line up poorly with what local residents perceive as urban. Nationally, 26 percent of Americans described where they live as urban, 53 percent said suburban and 21 percent said rural. (This comes close to the census estimate that 81 percent of the population is urban if “urban” is understood to include suburban areas.) Within “principal cities” of metropolitan areas (the census designates one or more cities in each metro as “principal”), respondents split 47 percent urban, 46 percent suburban and 7 percent rural, though those percentages include people in many small cities and metro areas. Looking only at respondents in the larger principal cities (those with a population greater than 100,000) of larger metropolitan areas (those with a population greater than 500,000), the breakdown was 56 percent urban, 42 percent suburban and 2 percent rural. That means close to half of people who live within city limits describe where they live as suburban
I have no idea how misrepresenting 70% as 20% helps counter the scumbag and his asshole buddies, but if that's what you want to do, knock yourself out. I'm done with this.
posted by ridgerunner at 7:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Census Bureau does not use suburban as a metric. They don't even define it.
And it's far less of an error than the claim that urban areas are only half the population and suburban areas are a third.
Exactly the opposite of what I said.
Maybe FiveThirtyEight can get the point across, the whole article is pretty good.
It turns out that many cities’ legal boundaries line up poorly with what local residents perceive as urban. Nationally, 26 percent of Americans described where they live as urban, 53 percent said suburban and 21 percent said rural. (This comes close to the census estimate that 81 percent of the population is urban if “urban” is understood to include suburban areas.) Within “principal cities” of metropolitan areas (the census designates one or more cities in each metro as “principal”), respondents split 47 percent urban, 46 percent suburban and 7 percent rural, though those percentages include people in many small cities and metro areas. Looking only at respondents in the larger principal cities (those with a population greater than 100,000) of larger metropolitan areas (those with a population greater than 500,000), the breakdown was 56 percent urban, 42 percent suburban and 2 percent rural. That means close to half of people who live within city limits describe where they live as suburban
I have no idea how misrepresenting 70% as 20% helps counter the scumbag and his asshole buddies, but if that's what you want to do, knock yourself out. I'm done with this.
posted by ridgerunner at 7:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
The dishonest media likes saying that I am in Agreement with Julian Assange - wrong. I simply state what he states
Um, is he operating with a different definition of agreement than I am?
And you did specifically refer to him when you stated what you stated.
posted by diogenes at 7:03 AM on January 5, 2017
Um, is he operating with a different definition of agreement than I am?
And you did specifically refer to him when you stated what you stated.
posted by diogenes at 7:03 AM on January 5, 2017
We won't see a female president in my lifetime.
I wouldn't bet against Nikki Haley, governor of South Carolina.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:15 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't bet against Nikki Haley, governor of South Carolina.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:15 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ugh, the more I see how things are going, the more prescient that HyperNormalization documentary linked way upthread seems.
posted by Rykey at 7:16 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 7:16 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
steady-state strawberry: We won't see a female president in my lifetime.
You probably will, but it will be Ivanka Trump. Autocrats don't like to give up power, except to pass it to their children.
posted by bluecore at 7:17 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
You probably will, but it will be Ivanka Trump. Autocrats don't like to give up power, except to pass it to their children.
posted by bluecore at 7:17 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
..time for Republicans & Democrats to get together and come up with a healthcare plan that really works - much less expensive & FAR BETTER!
Another hint that Trumpco intends to govern as an extra-party triangulator, representing the will (perhaps the id) of the people from the oval office?
posted by notyou at 7:20 AM on January 5, 2017
Another hint that Trumpco intends to govern as an extra-party triangulator, representing the will (perhaps the id) of the people from the oval office?
posted by notyou at 7:20 AM on January 5, 2017
The whole point of the last eight years has been the Republicans refusing to come together to work on anything. I'm going to add that to the lIstanbul of things Trump doesn't know.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:25 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:25 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
I have no idea how misrepresenting 70% as 20% helps counter the scumbag and his asshole buddies
Maybe read the entire rest of my comment beyond the single sentence you quoted? It discusses the problems that need to be addressed quite extensively.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 AM on January 5, 2017
Maybe read the entire rest of my comment beyond the single sentence you quoted? It discusses the problems that need to be addressed quite extensively.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 AM on January 5, 2017
Billy House: House GOP Gives Staff Broader New Powers to Grill Witnesses
A little-noticed provision approved Tuesday by the U.S. House dramatically expands the powers of committee staff to haul private citizens and government officials to Capitol Hill to be questioned under oath -- without any lawmakers present, in some cases.posted by zombieflanders at 7:49 AM on January 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
The Republican-authored change included in a House rules package marks what Democrats says is a disturbing trend of giving staff powers that have traditionally been reserved for members of Congress.
“After spending six years demonstrating their eagerness to spend taxpayer money on wasteful, politically motivated witch hunts, Republicans are giving themselves additional tools to do more of the same," said Representative Louise Slaughter of New York, the top Democrat on the House Rules Committee.
"Freely handing out the power to compel any American to appear, sit in a room, and answer staff’s invasive questions on the record -- without members even being required to be present -- is truly unprecedented, unwarranted, and offensive," she said.
[...]
Drew Hammill, a spokesman for Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, said, “This rules change represents a shocking continuation and expansion of House Republicans’ abusing of congressional processes to intimidate private citizens just as they did with the Select Committee to Attack Women’s Health."
..time for Republicans & Democrats to get together and come up with a healthcare plan that really works - much less expensive & FAR BETTER!
Like, say, the healthcare system in literally every other developed nation?
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:54 AM on January 5, 2017 [23 favorites]
Like, say, the healthcare system in literally every other developed nation?
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:54 AM on January 5, 2017 [23 favorites]
Harvard Law Review, The President’s Role in Advancing Criminal Justice Reform, Commentary by Barack Obama
We're going from a President who publishes in HLR in his spare time to one who brags about never reading and can't speak in coherent or grammatically correct sentences.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:56 AM on January 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
We're going from a President who publishes in HLR in his spare time to one who brags about never reading and can't speak in coherent or grammatically correct sentences.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:56 AM on January 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
Russia already producing Trump-Putin memorabilia. This calendar says "Christianity, Superpowerness, National Ethos!"
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:01 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:01 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
We're going from a President who publishes in HLR in his spare time to one who brags about never reading and can't speak in coherent or grammatically correct sentences.
Even in the best days of his presidency, it'll be the worst of W's stupidity and cronyism plus the worst of Nixon's paranoia and criminality plus the worst of Reagan's safety-net dismantling and toying with WW3. The future's so bright we gotta wear shades.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Even in the best days of his presidency, it'll be the worst of W's stupidity and cronyism plus the worst of Nixon's paranoia and criminality plus the worst of Reagan's safety-net dismantling and toying with WW3. The future's so bright we gotta wear shades.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
WaPo: House Republicans revive obscure rule that could allow them to slash the pay of individual federal workers to $1
House Republicans this week reinstated an arcane procedural rule that enables lawmakers to reach deep into the budget and slash the pay of an individual federal worker — down to a $1 — a move that threatens to upend the 130-year-old civil service.
The Holman Rule, named after an Indiana congressman who devised it in 1876, empowers any member of Congress to offer an amendment to an appropriations bill that targets a specific government employee or program.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:04 AM on January 5, 2017 [24 favorites]
House Republicans this week reinstated an arcane procedural rule that enables lawmakers to reach deep into the budget and slash the pay of an individual federal worker — down to a $1 — a move that threatens to upend the 130-year-old civil service.
The Holman Rule, named after an Indiana congressman who devised it in 1876, empowers any member of Congress to offer an amendment to an appropriations bill that targets a specific government employee or program.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:04 AM on January 5, 2017 [24 favorites]
Now we know why Trump was asking for names.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:08 AM on January 5, 2017 [41 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:08 AM on January 5, 2017 [41 favorites]
Republicans in Congress appear to have stopped giving a shit about anything remotely like actual governance and instead are focused on expanding their power and getting away with whatever the fuck they want
Many of us have tried telling this to people for years. All the while, even the supposedly moderate conservatives were all "Shelby v. Holder is totes awesome!" and "both sides do it" and "but but religious freedoms" while trying to shame us for pointing out that the GOP was increasingly pandering to and made up of theocrats and dictators and their admirers.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:09 AM on January 5, 2017 [26 favorites]
Many of us have tried telling this to people for years. All the while, even the supposedly moderate conservatives were all "Shelby v. Holder is totes awesome!" and "both sides do it" and "but but religious freedoms" while trying to shame us for pointing out that the GOP was increasingly pandering to and made up of theocrats and dictators and their admirers.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:09 AM on January 5, 2017 [26 favorites]
Another scary reminder of the power of the rural over the urban: GOP aims to rein in liberal cities
In recent decades, tobacco companies have used preemption laws to overcome local smoking bans, and the National Rifle Association turned to preemption to block cities from implementing new gun control measures.posted by zombieflanders at 8:17 AM on January 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
But in the last four years, after Republicans swept to power in legislatures across the country, the number of issues on which states are asserting their rights has skyrocketed, said Mark Pertschuk, director of the Oakland-based Grassroots Change, which keeps close tabs on preemption legislation.
The tension has grown as cities experiment with measures to raise revenue, keep their citizens healthy or add new protections for workers — and as Republicans have won control of states where Democrats still run large cities.
“In the past 10 to 15 years, cities have become the laboratories of innovation,” said Brooks Rainwater, director of the Center for City Solutions at the National League of Cities, which opposes local preemption laws. “The discordant views of those at the local level and those at the state level have led to some real challenges.”
The conservative American Legislative Exchange Council has offered five sample preemption bills on everything from local minimum wage hikes to rules governing genetically modified food and other agriculture products.
In just the last month, legislatures in Michigan and Wisconsin have passed laws preempting local governments from banning plastic grocery bags. In the last few years, courts have upheld the rights of Colorado and Texas legislators to prevent municipalities from banning hydraulic fracturing, also known as fracking, within their borders. Ohio is the latest state to preempt local efforts to raise the minimum wage, after Cleveland tried to boost wages for its lowest-paid workers.
Doesn't the incoming president always ask for lists of individual federal workers so they can be purged for ideological reasons?
posted by kirkaracha at 8:17 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:17 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
That does sound like something I heard one of my Facebook friends say Hillary had promised to do on Day One, kirkaracha.
posted by Etrigan at 8:24 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 8:24 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Looks like they're ready to drown government in that bathtub.
Thank god they screwed the pooch in NC and LA governorships and we have enough bulwarks to stop the state legislatures hitting that magic 34.
Once they have a bunch of amendments on the table, it just becomes a matter of surgical precision to pump money into borderline legislatures like Colorado, Maine, and Washington to get the amendments over the line.
posted by Talez at 8:25 AM on January 5, 2017
Thank god they screwed the pooch in NC and LA governorships and we have enough bulwarks to stop the state legislatures hitting that magic 34.
Once they have a bunch of amendments on the table, it just becomes a matter of surgical precision to pump money into borderline legislatures like Colorado, Maine, and Washington to get the amendments over the line.
posted by Talez at 8:25 AM on January 5, 2017
Trump Indexed
This is an amazing tool: Factbase is indexing and transcribing nearly every speech, tweet or other utterance of Donald Trump.posted by kirkaracha at 8:26 AM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
For example, this search finds every time Trump has said the word “fuck.”
Alternet and RawStory are not real news.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
They need to do some work on that Trump Indexed tool. For example, every single "fuck" I've checked out was actually "folks".
posted by vverse23 at 8:30 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by vverse23 at 8:30 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
roomthreeseventeen: Why not? (Tone = legitimate question; I don't know how they're not real.)
posted by XtinaS at 8:33 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by XtinaS at 8:33 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
roomthreeseventeen: Why not? (Tone = legitimate question; I don't know how they're not real.)
I mean, they don't have legitimate stories, to my knowledge, about anything. Clickbait.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:35 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I mean, they don't have legitimate stories, to my knowledge, about anything. Clickbait.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:35 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Imagine my shock at discovering all those Republican talking points about state and local governments being laboratories of innovation so we shouldn't interfere when they want to take away rights from people were a bunch of crap.
posted by zachlipton at 8:37 AM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 8:37 AM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
Not really feeling like we're getting welfare for the rich.
Perhaps the most American thought you can have.
posted by srboisvert at 8:49 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Perhaps the most American thought you can have.
posted by srboisvert at 8:49 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
AlterNet is a grab bag. They are essentially a wire service for alt weeklies and the like, so you'll find Democracy Now stories there, Salon stories, etc. That being said, they don't seem to have very high editorial standards, especially in stories produced in house.
posted by maxsparber at 8:49 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by maxsparber at 8:49 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
NEW: Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi will be named to a post in the Trump White House, sources tell me. Trump aides finalizing her role.
Bondi's org. was recipient of illegal gift from Trump Foundation, which arrived just after she dropped investigation into Trump University.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:56 AM on January 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
Bondi's org. was recipient of illegal gift from Trump Foundation, which arrived just after she dropped investigation into Trump University.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:56 AM on January 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
Is it just me or are today's tweets more unhinged than usual?
posted by zachlipton at 9:00 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 9:00 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Seem pretty averagely hinged to me.
posted by Etrigan at 9:01 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 9:01 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I mean, he's really going in on the "head clown" Schumer thing, which is unfortunate.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:03 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:03 AM on January 5, 2017
He gets this unhinged about once every 1.5 to 2 weeks; we need to get into "check out sex tape" territory for it to be really worth noting.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:05 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:05 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Someone joked that Putin told him to chill out on intelligence, I guess if he got a note from his boss like that for real it might put him in a grumpy mood.
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on January 5, 2017
Schumer does kinda look like a clown -- he could stand in for Cesar Romero as The Joker no problem.
posted by notyou at 9:10 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by notyou at 9:10 AM on January 5, 2017
Joan Walsh: Republicans Are Planning to Rush Through Jeff Sessions’s Confirmation Hearing
The Nation has learned that Senate Democrats will only get to call four witnesses to testify about the nomination of Senator Jeff Sessions to Attorney General. Moreover, Sessions will only face a two-day hearing, rather than the four-day grilling the Senate gave Attorney General John Ashcroft, the last nominee who was also leaving the Senate. Sessions was rejected for a federal judgeship by a Republican Senate in 1986 because of his anti-voting rights activism and racist comments, including jokingly approving of the Ku Klux Klan.posted by zombieflanders at 9:12 AM on January 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Two days after eight NAACP members, including the group’s president Cornell W. Brooks, were arrested occupying Sessions’s senate office in Mobile, Alabama, the battle lines are drawn for the first serious ideological confrontation of the Trump administration. So far, Democrats are looking like they’re ready for a fight. Sessions’s confirmation hearing is scheduled for January 10 in the Kennedy Caucus Room, named for the late legendary former Judiciary Committee chair Ted Kennedy.
[...]
Now multiple sources close to the Senate discussions, as well as advocacy group leaders, speaking on the condition of anonymity since negotiations with Grassley and his staff are nominally ongoing, say that Grassley has also refused to expand the number of witnesses, restricting Democrats to calling only four people over two days who can testify to Sessions’s long, controversial record on issues of civil rights. Grassley’s committee press secretary Taylor Foy confirmed that will be the final schedule, sharing this hearing announcement.
Meanwhile, Rich "Palin Gives Me Tingles In My Dingles" Lowry is unironically using the "but he had a black roommate once" excuse to defend Sessions. He also smears a deceased accuser (and later federal judge) as a slanderer and claims that, because five SCOTUS judges (led by the man hired specifically to destroy the Voting Rights Act) said racism doesn't real in Shelby, Sessions can't be racist either.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by zombieflanders at 9:23 AM on January 5, 2017
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by zombieflanders at 9:23 AM on January 5, 2017
I think firing individual civil servants could resonate very powerfully for the Trumpublicans watching Fox or following the big D on Twitter, especially if they choose their first scapegoat with care. It fits well with Trump's brand (ugh) from The Apprentice. (I had been thinking that civil service job protection would protect workers from arbitrary firing, but now I think I see a much more ominous plot twist.)
posted by puddledork at 9:29 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by puddledork at 9:29 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The converse could be true also, though: if they pick the wrong person to publicly purge, it could be a powerful anger-stoker for the opposition: putting a sympathetic face on the victims of this behavior might highlight his vindictive shittiness even to some of his voters.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:34 AM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:34 AM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
"Have you no decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"
posted by sciatrix at 9:37 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 9:37 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's not just Trump though, the rules package allows any member of congress to attach amendments zeroing out individual salaries or programs.
The House Freedom caucus could effectively fire every federal employee who worked on climate change. Or every IRS inspector who audited a Republican.
This is nothing less than the end of the civil service system.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:39 AM on January 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
The House Freedom caucus could effectively fire every federal employee who worked on climate change. Or every IRS inspector who audited a Republican.
This is nothing less than the end of the civil service system.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:39 AM on January 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
It won't be an individual sacrificial lamb made public, it'll be a quiet and behind-the-scenes purge. And I'd be willing to bet it will have an undercurrent of bigotry behind it, as conservatives have seen the civilian government workforce as cushy, overpaid, make-work jobs for "those people" since the Roosevelt Administration. It's no accident that the GOP is excited for furloughs and shutdowns. This goes doubly for when they're in control of the House and therefore the purse strings for DC, a highly-liberal majority-PoC area that they feel is their plaything and thus not worthy of a voice in the very same government many of its residents work for.
This is why I give anyone who trots out the "shrink the government!" line major side-eye, especially if they put cutting government jobs at or near the top of the list.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:43 AM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
This is why I give anyone who trots out the "shrink the government!" line major side-eye, especially if they put cutting government jobs at or near the top of the list.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:43 AM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
A WH official says the Obama WH offered to keep the playset for @realDonaldTrump kid/grandkids, but was turned down.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:43 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:43 AM on January 5, 2017
Secret Life of Gravy: Assange is feeling mighty sure of himself these days.
Of course he is - he's buddies with the soon-to-be President of the United States, who has already leaned on two companies to save a few hundred jobs before he's even in office.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:44 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Of course he is - he's buddies with the soon-to-be President of the United States, who has already leaned on two companies to save a few hundred jobs before he's even in office.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:44 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Assange is feeling mighty sure of himself these days.
Of course he is - he's buddies with the soon-to-be President of the United States
Snowden, on the other hand, is going to get murdered on January 21st. It's my pet theory that that's why Greenwald is being so "IT COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE RUSSIA": he's trying to save his friend's life.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 9:51 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Of course he is - he's buddies with the soon-to-be President of the United States
Snowden, on the other hand, is going to get murdered on January 21st. It's my pet theory that that's why Greenwald is being so "IT COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE RUSSIA": he's trying to save his friend's life.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 9:51 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
A couple of random article shares:
The good: Virginia Beach Democrat hauls in money from all 50 states in bid to take Scott Taylor's House of Delegates seat. The candidate in question is Cheryl Turpin, running for the Virginia statehouse, who has been highlighted recently by flippable. I gave $10 to her and $10 to Ryant Washington (also mentioned in the article) yesterday before this was published. Turpin "reported an eye-catching $53,580 in donations of under $100 from 4,500 donors," raising a total of $104,492 to her opponent's $66,596, which included just 16 donations under $100. (Washington has raised less than Turpin, but also has raised much more from small donors than his opponent.) It's a little statehouse race that we are all descending upon because we don't know what else to do, but... seeing this makes me think there is a lot of power and energy out there to be captured. The calls about the ethics commission yesterday, too - I'm surprised and hopeful at how much frustrated Democratic voters are achieving.
The bad: A Wave of Anti-Abortion Laws Is About to Hit Missouri. FOURTEEN different anti-abortion laws were pre-filed before the legislative session started yesterday. Missouri just elected a new governor and I can't find his contact info yet, but I plan to call about this as soon as I can. Nationwide outrage has been fairly effective against anti-LGBT laws; it hasn't worked thus far for anti-abortion laws, but with so many women organizing for the first time, who know?
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:54 AM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
The good: Virginia Beach Democrat hauls in money from all 50 states in bid to take Scott Taylor's House of Delegates seat. The candidate in question is Cheryl Turpin, running for the Virginia statehouse, who has been highlighted recently by flippable. I gave $10 to her and $10 to Ryant Washington (also mentioned in the article) yesterday before this was published. Turpin "reported an eye-catching $53,580 in donations of under $100 from 4,500 donors," raising a total of $104,492 to her opponent's $66,596, which included just 16 donations under $100. (Washington has raised less than Turpin, but also has raised much more from small donors than his opponent.) It's a little statehouse race that we are all descending upon because we don't know what else to do, but... seeing this makes me think there is a lot of power and energy out there to be captured. The calls about the ethics commission yesterday, too - I'm surprised and hopeful at how much frustrated Democratic voters are achieving.
The bad: A Wave of Anti-Abortion Laws Is About to Hit Missouri. FOURTEEN different anti-abortion laws were pre-filed before the legislative session started yesterday. Missouri just elected a new governor and I can't find his contact info yet, but I plan to call about this as soon as I can. Nationwide outrage has been fairly effective against anti-LGBT laws; it hasn't worked thus far for anti-abortion laws, but with so many women organizing for the first time, who know?
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:54 AM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
Have you no decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
We're entering a Worst Of compilation of the darkest and most shameful episodes in American history. Bringing up Japanese internment camps as a precedent for a Muslim registry. Proposing a new House Un-American Activities Committee. (One of the most un-American ideas in our history.) "Torture works" and "loading up" Guantanamo.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:56 AM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
Sorry to anyone suffering from constant campaign fatigue, buuuuut the 2017 Virginia gubernatorial election is shaping up to be something of a bellwether with both parties fielding a moderate and insurgent candidate.
On the republican side, the leading candidates are Ed Gillespie and Corey Stewart. Gillespie is very much the establishment GOP candidate, he worked for Dick Armey for a decade, worked in the Bush whitehouse, has been RNC chair, ran for Senate in 2014 and came very close to upsetting Mark Warner.
Stewart is the Tea Party and Donald Trump candidate. He is currently a county supervisor whose claim to fame is a harsh anti-immigration package he pushed through in Prince William County which mandated the police check the immigration status of every person arrested and cut off county services to undocumented immigrants. He was Trump's state campaign chair until he was fired after a bizarre protest in front of the RNC headquarters in DC.
On the democratic side, the presumed frontrunner is Ralph Northam, current Lt Governor under McAuliffe. He will have McAuliffe's support and likely that of Senators Warner and Kaine, but he's a moderate candidate; he nearly joined the republican party in 2009 as state senator. He's the kind of guy who says things like "I'm a fiscal conservative but socially liberal" which sums up Va democrats. He is the other pediatric neurosurgeon in politics.
But now Tom Perriello has announced his candidacy things are getting a little excited on the progressive sideline. He served a term in congress in 2008-2010 in a district that leans heavily republican and has remained a net roots darling for running beating the guy who ran a smear campaign against Keith Ellison. He lost his seat narrowly in the Tea Party wave while still running on a progressive platform, with Obama personally campaigning with him.
TLDR; the Virginia gubernatorial primaries look like they'll be GOP v Tea Party and Clinton v Sanders all over again.
posted by peeedro at 10:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
On the republican side, the leading candidates are Ed Gillespie and Corey Stewart. Gillespie is very much the establishment GOP candidate, he worked for Dick Armey for a decade, worked in the Bush whitehouse, has been RNC chair, ran for Senate in 2014 and came very close to upsetting Mark Warner.
Stewart is the Tea Party and Donald Trump candidate. He is currently a county supervisor whose claim to fame is a harsh anti-immigration package he pushed through in Prince William County which mandated the police check the immigration status of every person arrested and cut off county services to undocumented immigrants. He was Trump's state campaign chair until he was fired after a bizarre protest in front of the RNC headquarters in DC.
On the democratic side, the presumed frontrunner is Ralph Northam, current Lt Governor under McAuliffe. He will have McAuliffe's support and likely that of Senators Warner and Kaine, but he's a moderate candidate; he nearly joined the republican party in 2009 as state senator. He's the kind of guy who says things like "I'm a fiscal conservative but socially liberal" which sums up Va democrats. He is the other pediatric neurosurgeon in politics.
But now Tom Perriello has announced his candidacy things are getting a little excited on the progressive sideline. He served a term in congress in 2008-2010 in a district that leans heavily republican and has remained a net roots darling for running beating the guy who ran a smear campaign against Keith Ellison. He lost his seat narrowly in the Tea Party wave while still running on a progressive platform, with Obama personally campaigning with him.
TLDR; the Virginia gubernatorial primaries look like they'll be GOP v Tea Party and Clinton v Sanders all over again.
posted by peeedro at 10:02 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Montana Nazi March update. Anglin got his permit. Text below is from a local activist FB group. It seems highly unlikely that all the businesses along the route will give permission, but that isn't lowering my blood pressure any.
"Update on the proposed nazi march on Jan 15th- I spoke with the Whitefish police dept. and City Hall, and so far they have a permit, and may be gathering the other necessary documents. But those documents include insurance and permission from all the businesses along the street on which they plan to march. So there are still doubts that it will happen, or it will happen illegally and be a big problem. This is where it stands. I will call again next week to check on how far they have gotten in the permit process."
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:04 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Update on the proposed nazi march on Jan 15th- I spoke with the Whitefish police dept. and City Hall, and so far they have a permit, and may be gathering the other necessary documents. But those documents include insurance and permission from all the businesses along the street on which they plan to march. So there are still doubts that it will happen, or it will happen illegally and be a big problem. This is where it stands. I will call again next week to check on how far they have gotten in the permit process."
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:04 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Anecdote about California neo-Nazis moving to western states where they dream of some all-white brotherhood: my dad recently told me about this young muscly dude at his gym who was as vocally racist and homophobic as you could could imagine, and how he talked about being so happy to leave Southern California for Idaho. He left, but then came back two weeks later and said nothing about his trip.
Seems like Idaho wasn't everything he imagined. I wish as much luck to Anglin and his ilk.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:11 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
Seems like Idaho wasn't everything he imagined. I wish as much luck to Anglin and his ilk.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:11 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
This jibes with my experience: Registered Voters Who Stayed Home Probably Cost Clinton The Election.
Registered voters who didn’t vote on Election Day in November were more Democratic-leaning than the registered voters who turned out, according to a post-election poll from SurveyMonkey, shared with FiveThirtyEight. In fact, Donald Trump probably would have lost to Hillary Clinton had Republican- and Democratic-leaning registered voters cast ballots at equal rates.posted by Coventry at 10:11 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Election-year polls understandably focus on likely voters. Then, after the election, the attention turns to actual voters, mainly using exit polls. But getting good data on Americans who didn’t vote is more difficult. That’s why the SurveyMonkey poll, which interviewed about 100,000 registered voters just after Election Day, including more than 3,600 registered voters who didn’t vote, is so useful. It’s still just one poll, and so its findings aren’t gospel, but with such a big sample we can drill down to subgroups and measure the demographic makeup of nonvoters to an extent we couldn’t with a smaller dataset.
Registered Voters Who Stayed Home Probably Cost Clinton The Election
"She's just as bad" rhetoric from Sanders-bros, Stein supporters and everyone in the media had nothing to do with this. None of them have any culpability whatsoever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:14 AM on January 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
"She's just as bad" rhetoric from Sanders-bros, Stein supporters and everyone in the media had nothing to do with this. None of them have any culpability whatsoever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:14 AM on January 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
There was a weird weird interview on Fresh Air last night with Omar Saif Ghobash, the UAE ambassador to Russia. Some selections:
posted by theodolite at 10:14 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think many of us look at President-elect Trump and we think that he is certainly a showman. He's certainly an entrepreneur. He certainly has a lot of courage and guts, to be honest. And nobody can deny that, actually, the entire establishment - the entire political establishment, whether Republican or Democrat - was not in favor of him. And yet, he as a single almost force of nature took the presidency. So this is a commentary also on American politics and the democratic system.He's repeating what are basically standard pro-Trump arguments couched in enough hedging and vagueness to make them palatable to an NPR audience. Terry did a decent job of pushing back, but expect more of this in the days to come. I don't know enough about UAE's foreign policy to understand what Ghobash is getting out of this, though.
...
Now, I think, also, if I may, the idea of the [Muslim] register, that's very interesting. But I - as far as I understand, there was a register already in place, and it's only just been disbanded by President Obama, I think, that had been set up under George Bush Jr. So I understand that there was a register already in place. And so this shouldn't be a complete surprise. On the other hand, I do think where a president has immense influence is in setting the tone. And I would be hopeful that the tone could be more conducive to integrating the Arab-American Muslim community.
...
I do think that I want to see and we all want to see what Trump will do as president. I do know - and I've - you know, I've got friends who are Muslims who are Americans who are expressing various degrees of fear and a lack of comfort. But, you know, if I look at the history of American society, there have been other communities who have also been targeted or persecuted or marginalized throughout the decades. And I think, actually, this is a great time for the Muslim community.
...
And so all of a sudden when a man like Trump comes to take the presidency, there's this tremendous amount of doubt within American society. Well - so, I mean, that makes me wonder - am I now standing with the Constitution more than the typical American commentator? So I'm not dismissing his statements. I'm not dismissing them. But I'm saying that I believe as an outsider that the institutions, the laws, the potential of the United States allows for these kinds of fears to be accommodated.
posted by theodolite at 10:14 AM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Tom Perriello has announced his candidacy things are getting a little excited on the progressive sideline. He served a term in congress in 2008-2010 in a district that leans heavily republican and has remained a net roots darling for running beating the guy who ran a smear campaign against Keith Ellison. He lost his seat narrowly in the Tea Party wave while still running on a progressive platform
He ALSO voted for the anti-abortion Stupak amendment, the one that prevents federal funds from being used to pay for abortions. Economic progressives are good but I have trouble supporting someone who will throw women under the bus like that.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:24 AM on January 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
He ALSO voted for the anti-abortion Stupak amendment, the one that prevents federal funds from being used to pay for abortions. Economic progressives are good but I have trouble supporting someone who will throw women under the bus like that.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:24 AM on January 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
Yeah, I haven't been impressed with any progressive candidate because they all seem to not care one whit for women's rights.
posted by agregoli at 10:33 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 10:33 AM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Family-owned plumbing and HVAC firm Joseph J. Magnolia, Inc., claims that it is out $2.98 million for more than two years of work on the Trump International Hotel, The Washington Post reported.
In a lien filed in December 2016 the company said it "completed all plumbing, mechanical and HVAC work, along with site sewer, water, storm and water services" on the project. It named Trump’s D.C. hotel company as well as a construction manager, Lendlease US, among the parties responsible, according to the report.
John D. Magnolia, president of the firm, told the Post that he voted for Trump in November.
Trump screwed him out of $3 million and he still voted for Trump.
Republican brains. How do they work?
posted by JackFlash at 10:48 AM on January 5, 2017 [37 favorites]
In a lien filed in December 2016 the company said it "completed all plumbing, mechanical and HVAC work, along with site sewer, water, storm and water services" on the project. It named Trump’s D.C. hotel company as well as a construction manager, Lendlease US, among the parties responsible, according to the report.
John D. Magnolia, president of the firm, told the Post that he voted for Trump in November.
Trump screwed him out of $3 million and he still voted for Trump.
Republican brains. How do they work?
posted by JackFlash at 10:48 AM on January 5, 2017 [37 favorites]
None of them have any culpability whatsoever.
Neither does her campaign!
posted by Bookhouse at 10:51 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Neither does her campaign!
posted by Bookhouse at 10:51 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Trump screwed him out of $3 million and he still voted for Trump.
Republican brains. How do they work?
You can't put a price on the joy of making liberals sad.
posted by diogenes at 10:56 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Republican brains. How do they work?
You can't put a price on the joy of making liberals sad.
posted by diogenes at 10:56 AM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Trump screwed him out of $3 million and he still voted for Trump.
Republican brains. How do they work?
Way to beg the question.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:59 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Republican brains. How do they work?
Way to beg the question.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:59 AM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Way to beg the question.
You are absolutely right. My mistake.
posted by JackFlash at 11:04 AM on January 5, 2017
You are absolutely right. My mistake.
posted by JackFlash at 11:04 AM on January 5, 2017
Trump screwed him out of $3 million and he still voted for Trump.
Republican brains. How do they work?
To take the question seriously for a moment - display some of that empathy we should all be proud of - the answer's pretty simple.
First up, the guy can justify being conned by Donald through the lens of Social Darwinism: Trump screwed him because Donald's smarter/stronger/whatever. He can Just World that shit.
After handwaving that? The truth is that the future the GOP is offering is worth more to him than $3 million, that's all. Sure, it's a lot of money, but it's still a future where he doesn't have to compete with anyone besides cis het white men. He doesn't have to worry about a woman taking his job or bossing him around. He doesn't have to care what anybody else feels. He can look down his nose at PoC and LGBTQA and such.
... basically, he's choosing to take a reasonable position in Hell over equality in Heaven.
posted by mordax at 11:07 AM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Republican brains. How do they work?
To take the question seriously for a moment - display some of that empathy we should all be proud of - the answer's pretty simple.
First up, the guy can justify being conned by Donald through the lens of Social Darwinism: Trump screwed him because Donald's smarter/stronger/whatever. He can Just World that shit.
After handwaving that? The truth is that the future the GOP is offering is worth more to him than $3 million, that's all. Sure, it's a lot of money, but it's still a future where he doesn't have to compete with anyone besides cis het white men. He doesn't have to worry about a woman taking his job or bossing him around. He doesn't have to care what anybody else feels. He can look down his nose at PoC and LGBTQA and such.
... basically, he's choosing to take a reasonable position in Hell over equality in Heaven.
posted by mordax at 11:07 AM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
MSNBC hires former Fox News host Greta Van Susteren to host a daily, Washington-based evening news program.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:24 AM on January 5, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:24 AM on January 5, 2017
L. Ron Hubbard's demon bride? Oh what the fuck?
posted by octobersurprise at 11:32 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 11:32 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Apparently, Democrats saying “Donald Trump wants to make America sick again” really got under Trump’s skin
Hence the Clown comments.
posted by futz at 11:37 AM on January 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
Hence the Clown comments.
posted by futz at 11:37 AM on January 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
It really is a perfect slogan to fight them on Obamacare. Even better that it also drives Trump nuts.
posted by chris24 at 11:39 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 11:39 AM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
Paul Ryan Says Obamacare Repeal Bill Will Also Defund Planned Parenthood
posted by zombieflanders at 11:41 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by zombieflanders at 11:41 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I found this useful and illuminating in The New Yorker today: What If a President Loses Control?
It isn't clear from the headline, but the article refers to the President losing control of his mind. And the scary answer is that there isn't any formal process for dealing with that.
posted by diogenes at 11:50 AM on January 5, 2017
It isn't clear from the headline, but the article refers to the President losing control of his mind. And the scary answer is that there isn't any formal process for dealing with that.
posted by diogenes at 11:50 AM on January 5, 2017
"She's just as bad" rhetoric from Sanders-bros, Stein supporters and everyone in the media had nothing to do with this. None of them have any culpability whatsoever.
Even I'm tired of RLTP'ing at this stage, and that's where we'd have to go to get into that.
Whatever you think of the causes for its findings, the survey is illuminating data about a segment of the electorate we could only discuss before in terms of anecdata.
posted by Coventry at 11:58 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Even I'm tired of RLTP'ing at this stage, and that's where we'd have to go to get into that.
Whatever you think of the causes for its findings, the survey is illuminating data about a segment of the electorate we could only discuss before in terms of anecdata.
posted by Coventry at 11:58 AM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Anti-Inauguration
The inauguration of Donald Trump as the 45th president of the United States is just two weeks away, so now is the time to begin making plans to send him the strongest possible signal that your opposition to the presidency he has foreshadowed will not be pouting and passive, but active and animated.posted by kirkaracha at 12:07 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Now is the time to begin making your plans for the anti-inauguration.
I can only spend so much time and emotional energy calling my congresspeople and telling them my personal history with whatever one of my rights they're trying to curtail, especially when it seems to be serving no purpose. I've told my legislators by e-mail, in person, over the phone, by letter, that as their constituent, I'm a person who cares deeply and personally about access to abortion, about immigration, about black lives matter, about funding for science, about sexual assault, about Planned Parenthood, about the military, about veterans, about refugees, about health insurance ... and it's frustrating and enraging to have it Just Not Matter again and again and again.
I'll keep pestering people, but all those Rs in congress representing me don't feel particularly like they're representing, or even care about, of people who are not white conservative men.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
I'll keep pestering people, but all those Rs in congress representing me don't feel particularly like they're representing, or even care about, of people who are not white conservative men.
posted by ChuraChura at 12:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
More skullduggery from the rules change bill: House GOP rules change will make it easier to sell off federal land
House Natural Resources Committee spokeswoman Molly Block said in a statement that “in many cases federal lands create a significant burden for the surrounding communities,” because they cannot be taxed and can be “in disrepair.”More from Rep. Grijalva here:
“Allowing communities to actually manage and use these lands will generate not only state and local income tax, but also federal income tax revenues” she added, as well as reduce the need for some federally-supported payments. “Unfortunately, current budget practices do not fully recognize these benefits, making it very difficult for non-controversial land transfers between governmental entities for public use and other reasons to happen.”
But many Democrats argue that these lands should be managed on behalf of all Americans, not just those living nearby, and warn that cash-strapped state and local officials might sell these parcels to developers.
Under current Congressional Budget Office accounting rules, any transfer of federal land that generates revenue for the U.S. Treasury — whether through energy extraction, logging, grazing or other activities — has a cost. If lawmakers wanted to give such land to a state, local government or tribe, they would have to account for that loss in expected cash flow.
Bishop authored language in the new rules package that would overturn that requirment, saying any such transfers “shall not be considered as providing new budget authority, decreasing revenues, increasing mandatory spending, or increasing outlays.”
Rep. Raul Grijalva (Ariz.), the top Democrat on the Natural Resources Committee, sent a letter Tuesday to fellow Democrats urging them to oppose the rules package on the basis of that proposal.
So, if you take a piece of federal land in Arizona, cede it over to—transfer it to the state of Arizona or a particular county, there will be no Congressional Budget Office analysis of what cost is to the taxpayers, in general, of this country in terms of that transfer. And so, it would be counted as a zero. So that facilitates the transfers. In the past, you know, because of rules and laws, there had to be an exchange of either equal value or the cost involved in that exchange. Now, with that being eliminated, it makes that whole "give the federal land back to the states" movement a shot in the arm, because the groundwork has been set now for them to transfer it without having to follow their own rule which they set in place, which is to have a CBO score to make sure that it’s not a gift and to make sure that the taxpayer was being protected. That facilitates it, and it sets the groundwork for those kinds of transfers to states and counties down the road.posted by zombieflanders at 12:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
We won't see a female president in my lifetime.
I'm a little more optimistic. The current odds for the 2020 Democratic presidential candidate have several female candidates at 20/1 or shorter (including Amy Klobuchar, where my long-event money went). And the few UK bookies currently offering odds on the winning party for the 2020 US presidency have the Democrats as current favorite.
posted by Wordshore at 12:26 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm a little more optimistic. The current odds for the 2020 Democratic presidential candidate have several female candidates at 20/1 or shorter (including Amy Klobuchar, where my long-event money went). And the few UK bookies currently offering odds on the winning party for the 2020 US presidency have the Democrats as current favorite.
posted by Wordshore at 12:26 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
racism and sexism were much more important and can explain about two-thirds of the education gap among whites in the 2016 presidential vote
The results of that study don't support that conclusion. They can be explained equally well by the fact that you had to be a racist or a sexist to support Trump — which is different from saying that racism and sexism were a significant part of his appeal — and that education makes you less likely to be bigoted.
Also, it's weird that their figures only show the linear relations implied by their models, and not the raw values those models were inferred from. The raw values could have been fit on the same figures, and would show how well the model is fitting. It makes me wonder how good their fit was.
posted by Coventry at 12:39 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The results of that study don't support that conclusion. They can be explained equally well by the fact that you had to be a racist or a sexist to support Trump — which is different from saying that racism and sexism were a significant part of his appeal — and that education makes you less likely to be bigoted.
Also, it's weird that their figures only show the linear relations implied by their models, and not the raw values those models were inferred from. The raw values could have been fit on the same figures, and would show how well the model is fitting. It makes me wonder how good their fit was.
posted by Coventry at 12:39 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trump turning on Chuck Shumer is the only good news of the day. It's going to take a lot of direct attacks for Schumer to get it through his synchophant skull that Trump is the enemy, not someone to pander to and work with for the big signing ceremony on cable news.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:49 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:49 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Washingtonian The Cheapest Cocktail at the Trump Hotel Is Now $24
The lobby bar raises its prices yet again.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:50 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
The lobby bar raises its prices yet again.
It’s safe to say the Trump hotel’s Benjamin Bar & Lounge is now the most expensive overall bar in all of Washington, and its price hikes are the hugest I’ve ever seen, especially in such a short period.Hey ya gotta keep the riff-raff and the looky-loos out so that the finest foreign diplomats can belly up to the bar.
When the hotel opened on September 12, cocktail prices ranged from $16 to $20—not cheap, but not totally unheard of for a luxury hotel. Then in October, we noted those exact same cocktails had been jacked up to the $20 to $24 range. By that time, the bar had also introduced its $100 cocktail, a martini with three types of vodka, three oysters, and a tin of caviar. (Disturbingly, a bartender told me some people put the oysters in the martini.)[...]The cocktail with the biggest price hike is the John Willett, a $29 drink with Willett bourbon, honey syrup, and orange bitters. It’s gone up $11 since the opening, or 61 percent.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:50 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
You can't put a price on the joy of making liberals sad.
I've been thinking a lot about the ever popular meme of hot cup of liberal tears that you inevitably find under a Donald tweet as some sort of witty retort to some reasonable person going "what is this I can't even".
Honestly, I'm set. I'm a liberal who lives in a blue state who has an average income that just straddles the top 5%. I have a passport to get the fuck out of dodge if things collapse into a giant heap of flaming dog shit. All of my in-law family are doing better than us and could easily escape to Canada if necessary.
The only reason I even give a shit is because there are a lot of people who didn't ask for this. A lot of people who's lives are going to be harder unnecessarily. I shed no tears for the Donald making us all look like a bunch of out-of-touch idiots who don't understand theracism economic anxiety of middle real Americans. I shed tears for the families who are going to have healthcare needlessly ripped from them, who are going to see their wage protection gutted, who are going to see their educational opportunities diminish, who are going to have to deal with the bigotry and hatred that we've opened the floodgates to.
If you want to drink those tears go the fuck ahead. It just shows what kind of person you really are. You better hope there isn't a god that you profess to believe in because that Jesus guy is going to pull you up for judgement and ask "did you give a drink to the thirsty, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, visit the sick and the imprisoned?". Even if you have the chutzpah to open your mouth and start to explain your wicked actions, knowing full well that Jesus isn't going to fall for the same twisted rhetorical bullshit you used to justify said actions on Earth, you know in the back of your mind that it's most certainly going to be hot where you're going to end up.
posted by Talez at 12:50 PM on January 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
I've been thinking a lot about the ever popular meme of hot cup of liberal tears that you inevitably find under a Donald tweet as some sort of witty retort to some reasonable person going "what is this I can't even".
Honestly, I'm set. I'm a liberal who lives in a blue state who has an average income that just straddles the top 5%. I have a passport to get the fuck out of dodge if things collapse into a giant heap of flaming dog shit. All of my in-law family are doing better than us and could easily escape to Canada if necessary.
The only reason I even give a shit is because there are a lot of people who didn't ask for this. A lot of people who's lives are going to be harder unnecessarily. I shed no tears for the Donald making us all look like a bunch of out-of-touch idiots who don't understand the
If you want to drink those tears go the fuck ahead. It just shows what kind of person you really are. You better hope there isn't a god that you profess to believe in because that Jesus guy is going to pull you up for judgement and ask "did you give a drink to the thirsty, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, visit the sick and the imprisoned?". Even if you have the chutzpah to open your mouth and start to explain your wicked actions, knowing full well that Jesus isn't going to fall for the same twisted rhetorical bullshit you used to justify said actions on Earth, you know in the back of your mind that it's most certainly going to be hot where you're going to end up.
posted by Talez at 12:50 PM on January 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
AP Source: Trump Selects Former Indiana Sen. Dan Coats as Director of National Intelligence
posted by futz at 12:51 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by futz at 12:51 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Schumer is actually, normally, a great senator. I admire everything he has tried to do in this crazy time.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:53 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:53 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know if the old joke amongst Congressional staffers about the most dangerous place on Capitol Hill being between Chuck Schumer and a camera is still popular, but it's definitely still relevant.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:01 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by zombieflanders at 1:01 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Intelligence chief: Russia’s election interference went far beyond hacks
The intelligence leader outlined various methods wielded by Moscow to interfere with U.S. institutions during Thursday morning testimony on cyberattacks before the Senate Armed Services Committee.
posted by futz at 1:09 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The intelligence leader outlined various methods wielded by Moscow to interfere with U.S. institutions during Thursday morning testimony on cyberattacks before the Senate Armed Services Committee.
posted by futz at 1:09 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The cocktail with the biggest price hike is the John Willett, a $29 drink with Willett bourbon, honey syrup, and orange bitters.
Or buy a bottle of Willett Pot Still Reserve for $42, follow this incredibly complicated recipe for honey syrup, and grab some orange bitters with a picture of Treebeard on the label for $6. Spend twice as much to get four times as drunk, and none of the money goes to Trump.
You could even DIY the bitters but it's a bit more work.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:11 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Probably not a good use of my winter break time is being an asshole to people who want to drink my liberal tears on twitter. God it makes me feel good though.
posted by angrycat at 1:22 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 1:22 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm a little more optimistic.
I too think we'll see a woman president, but I don't know if I'd call it optimism. It's more like I'm having a shift in thinking to try to accomodate what's happened in the last couple of decades. Instead of asking "Who would make a good president?", I'm also asking "What would make this show more exciting in the future?" It also feels like the pendulum swing in the American system is getting faster and more wild, so the range of what was possible has expanded as well an escalation of action to create those swings and reaction to them.
So, yes I can see a woman president. But I can also see a full white nationalist president. And maybe even an immigrant president.
posted by FJT at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I too think we'll see a woman president, but I don't know if I'd call it optimism. It's more like I'm having a shift in thinking to try to accomodate what's happened in the last couple of decades. Instead of asking "Who would make a good president?", I'm also asking "What would make this show more exciting in the future?" It also feels like the pendulum swing in the American system is getting faster and more wild, so the range of what was possible has expanded as well an escalation of action to create those swings and reaction to them.
So, yes I can see a woman president. But I can also see a full white nationalist president. And maybe even an immigrant president.
posted by FJT at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Fox News boldly replaces Megyn Kelly with sniveling white guy
...Variety speculated that noted bow tie wearer and real-life villain from an ‘80s teen movie, Tucker Carlson, was the most likely candidate to replace her. Today, Variety confirms its prediction, reporting the conservative pundit and textbook embodiment of the word “bloviating” will indeed be replacing Kelly in the network’s 9 p.m. news hour, beginning next week on January 9.posted by kirkaracha at 1:27 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm a little more optimistic.
I look at it like maintenance.
I survived Nixon. Who was flat-out Evil.
I survived Reagan. Who had lost his mind.
I survived Bush II. Who was developmentally disabled.
I'll survive Donald Trump. Who is accused of raping a child.
posted by mikelieman at 1:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I look at it like maintenance.
I survived Nixon. Who was flat-out Evil.
I survived Reagan. Who had lost his mind.
I survived Bush II. Who was developmentally disabled.
I'll survive Donald Trump. Who is accused of raping a child.
posted by mikelieman at 1:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
there's a big obstacle to an immigrant president
There was a big obstacle to Mike Bloomberg's Third Term, IIRC...
We're not just Post-Truth here, we're Post-Reality here people...
posted by mikelieman at 1:29 PM on January 5, 2017
There was a big obstacle to Mike Bloomberg's Third Term, IIRC...
We're not just Post-Truth here, we're Post-Reality here people...
posted by mikelieman at 1:29 PM on January 5, 2017
Howso? An immigrant president wouldn't be native-born, which is a requirement
Why is it a requirement?
posted by FJT at 1:29 PM on January 5, 2017
Why is it a requirement?
posted by FJT at 1:29 PM on January 5, 2017
The drink of choice for Trumpists is not "liberal tears"; it's human blood, harvested from a wide range of Americans, including themselves, although they don't (yet) notice the straw attached to their own veins.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Trump is going to start a nuclear war and these people are going to be OK with it, since the "liberals" hate it.
Why is it a requirement?
It's in the Constitution. It seems that there was a good deal of concern, at the time, that a President might have allegiences to a foreign power.
posted by thelonius at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
Why is it a requirement?
It's in the Constitution. It seems that there was a good deal of concern, at the time, that a President might have allegiences to a foreign power.
posted by thelonius at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
Why is it a requirement?
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Constitution requires that one be a "natural born citizen"; nobody cared that Ted Cruz was born in Calgary. You could be a citizen born abroad, but you couldn't be a naturalized citizen.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:31 PM on January 5, 2017
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:31 PM on January 5, 2017
Same reason you can't contribute to a campaign without a green card: To protect the government from foreign influence.
posted by Coventry at 1:31 PM on January 5, 2017
posted by Coventry at 1:31 PM on January 5, 2017
Here's a piece of Montana Nazi March information that will only piss you off, and that is intended to troll us, but that is too vile to be ignored. Outrage from trolling can channeled to good use like any other outrage:
Anglin posted a scan of the permit application for the Whitefish march. It's for January 16th and the paperwork calls it "The James Earl Ray Day Extravaganza."
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:33 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Anglin posted a scan of the permit application for the Whitefish march. It's for January 16th and the paperwork calls it "The James Earl Ray Day Extravaganza."
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:33 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
But Trump is all of those things at the same time and worse.
At some point our luck as a country repeatedly spinning the loaded chamber and pulling the trigger will run out. We've spun it 3 times already and the odds on the 4th pull of the trigger are under 50/50
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:33 PM on January 5, 2017
At some point our luck as a country repeatedly spinning the loaded chamber and pulling the trigger will run out. We've spun it 3 times already and the odds on the 4th pull of the trigger are under 50/50
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:33 PM on January 5, 2017
don't (yet) notice the straw attached to their own veins.
I drink our milkshake!
posted by diogenes at 1:34 PM on January 5, 2017
I drink our milkshake!
posted by diogenes at 1:34 PM on January 5, 2017
that a President might have allegiences to a foreign power.
Oh, you mean like our soon-to-be President Trump? :)
posted by FJT at 1:34 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, you mean like our soon-to-be President Trump? :)
posted by FJT at 1:34 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dude, Russia just bought our fucking election. You seriously want to advocate that some fucklord could run Putin himself to take over the goddamn country? I would say "or worse" but let's be real, it's pretty fucking bad.
No. I'm not fighting that damn battle. Optics are too bad and no one needs to be President.
posted by sciatrix at 1:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
No. I'm not fighting that damn battle. Optics are too bad and no one needs to be President.
posted by sciatrix at 1:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
seriously why are you digging in on this, it's weird
posted by sciatrix at 1:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sciatrix at 1:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Living in Trump’s America: Thoughts From a Black Disabled Woman (from December): Personally, I am still processing what could happen to me and those I know, but I refuse to live in fear. The election energized me to keep fighting for Black disabled women and other women of color, which is my advocacy focus. A Trump presidency will not silence my voice; it will not prevent me from demanding civil and human rights be respected and to protect the ones we have; and I will not be intimidated by racists, bigots, misogynists, etc. as I continue to live unapologetically Black, disabled, and a woman. For me, to live in fear means to relinquish power, and I will never give my power away to ignorance and hate, even if it lives in the White House. Now, more than ever, I am charged up to do what is needed, and will continue to make the good trouble I have done for the last 3 years as an advocate. My disabled existence matters, and I will steadfastly proclaim that for the next 4 years and beyond.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'll survive Donald Trump. Who is accused of raping a child.
What about the people who aren't playing the game of life on easy mode?
posted by Talez at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
What about the people who aren't playing the game of life on easy mode?
posted by Talez at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Paul Ryan Says Obamacare Repeal Bill Will Also Defund Planned Parenthood
Note that you already can't use federal funds for abortion, so this is about stopping things like cancer screenings.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [41 favorites]
Note that you already can't use federal funds for abortion, so this is about stopping things like cancer screenings.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [41 favorites]
But Trump is all of those things at the same time and worse.
I'm an immigrant (not even a citizen, yet), but I understand this requirement. It's from a time when there were credible threats of hostile foreign influence taking down the whole experiment.
posted by Coventry at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm an immigrant (not even a citizen, yet), but I understand this requirement. It's from a time when there were credible threats of hostile foreign influence taking down the whole experiment.
posted by Coventry at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
you mean a time like two weeks from now?
posted by sciatrix at 1:39 PM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 1:39 PM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
It's from a time when there were credible threats of hostile foreign influence taking down the whole experiment.
You forgot the sarcasm tag!
posted by diogenes at 1:40 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
You forgot the sarcasm tag!
posted by diogenes at 1:40 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wonder about Megyn Kelly and her getting onto a broadcast network. Was the racist nonsense she spewed (Santa and Jesus were white, etc) her real views, or was she just toeing the company line? Where did the media persona end and the real opinions begin? Do we have any way of knowing?
posted by Ber at 1:40 PM on January 5, 2017
posted by Ber at 1:40 PM on January 5, 2017
Who cares? She was fine saying it, and that's all that matters.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:42 PM on January 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:42 PM on January 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
seriously why are you digging in on this, it's weird
It's actually not. Because for almost 8 years (and I'm fairly certain more if I went and dug into his history), Donald Trump has made "not born in America" into a slur. A winning slur at that. And there should be an equally bold response to that.
And for the life of me, I cannot think of a single reason why someone like Ilhan Omar can't be president but Donald Trump can.
posted by FJT at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's actually not. Because for almost 8 years (and I'm fairly certain more if I went and dug into his history), Donald Trump has made "not born in America" into a slur. A winning slur at that. And there should be an equally bold response to that.
And for the life of me, I cannot think of a single reason why someone like Ilhan Omar can't be president but Donald Trump can.
posted by FJT at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Where did the media persona end and the real opinions begin? Do we have any way of knowing?
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Was the racist nonsense she spewed (Santa and Jesus were white, etc) her real views, or was she just toeing the company line? Where did the media persona end and the real opinions begin? Do we have any way of knowing?
It's really doesn't matter. Intent is meaningless, what's in Megyns heart of hearts does not outweigh her years of racist demagoguery when it's the actions that have consequences.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
It's really doesn't matter. Intent is meaningless, what's in Megyns heart of hearts does not outweigh her years of racist demagoguery when it's the actions that have consequences.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
And for the life of me, I cannot think of a single reason why someone like Ilhan Omar can't be president but Donald Trump can.
Because right now Vladimir Putin could have a chance.
posted by Talez at 1:45 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Because right now Vladimir Putin could have a chance.
posted by Talez at 1:45 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
I cannot think of a single reason why someone like Ilhan Omar can't be president but Donald Trump can.
At the moment, the Constitution says so.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:45 PM on January 5, 2017
At the moment, the Constitution says so.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:45 PM on January 5, 2017
The rule is probably obsolete, but if I was going to revamp the constitution that would not be my top priority.
posted by Coventry at 1:47 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 1:47 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
At the moment, the Constitution says so.
Yeah, I know. Basically just like why the electoral college still sticks around.
posted by FJT at 1:47 PM on January 5, 2017
Yeah, I know. Basically just like why the electoral college still sticks around.
posted by FJT at 1:47 PM on January 5, 2017
No, Donald Trump has made "non-white immigrant" or "not really white American" a slur. You'll note he's not exactly frothing at the mouth about white immigrants from elsewhere--say, from Russia or Western Europe. And y'know, it's funny how all his "Mexicans" rhetoric impacts plenty of folks like my friend K, whose family have been living in Texas since before it was owned by the USA.
Seriously, your attachment to this is weird. Immigrant status and birthplace isn't the exact thing Trump and his brownshirts are targeting; else all the fuss about so-called "anchor babies" would make no damn sense. It's about who gets to count as true American, and pretty clearly to Trump that's not purely mediated by where you were born or your legal status; it's mediated by your skin color and your last name just as hard.
posted by sciatrix at 1:52 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Seriously, your attachment to this is weird. Immigrant status and birthplace isn't the exact thing Trump and his brownshirts are targeting; else all the fuss about so-called "anchor babies" would make no damn sense. It's about who gets to count as true American, and pretty clearly to Trump that's not purely mediated by where you were born or your legal status; it's mediated by your skin color and your last name just as hard.
posted by sciatrix at 1:52 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trump's rhetoric is not about citizenship status, at the heart of it. It's about whiteness and racism.
posted by sciatrix at 1:53 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 1:53 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Putin doesn't need to run himself when he already has unknown and unknowable leverage. Much better to maintain the fiction of the status quo and direct his puppet from the shadows.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:53 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:53 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, I remember a few years ago when people said "well, Arnold Schwarzenegger COULD follow Ronald Reagan on the path from Hollywood to California Governor to the White House, BUT the Constitution won't let him." And now he's followed Trump to host/star/fakeboss on "Apprentice"... It just keeps getting weirder...
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:57 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:57 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Senator, I worked for Arnold Schwarzenegger. I didn't know Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnold Schwarzenegger was my boss' boss' boss' boss' boss. Senator, he's no Donald Trump.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:01 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 2:01 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Megyn Kelly and Greta Van Susteren going to MSNBC? I'm starting to get that 2002 feeling again.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:05 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:05 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm starting to get that 2002 feeling again.
It's 2002 if we're exceptionally fortunate. My worry is that it's August 2001.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
It's 2002 if we're exceptionally fortunate. My worry is that it's August 2001.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
So is it SOP for the FBI to hand this kind of investigation off to a third party or not?
There was an article linked to in one of the previous threads that talked about CrowdStrike. IIRC, they have more experience with the specific Russian hacking teams involved and are basically the top cybersecurity firm and that includes any similar teams in the Federal Government.
My impression is that, if CrowdStrike hadn't already been involved, the FBI probably would have brought them in specifically for their expertise dealing with these specific hackers.
posted by VTX at 2:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
There was an article linked to in one of the previous threads that talked about CrowdStrike. IIRC, they have more experience with the specific Russian hacking teams involved and are basically the top cybersecurity firm and that includes any similar teams in the Federal Government.
My impression is that, if CrowdStrike hadn't already been involved, the FBI probably would have brought them in specifically for their expertise dealing with these specific hackers.
posted by VTX at 2:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
This poem by Elisa Chavez captures my feelings pretty well right now.
Excerpt:
"I’ll confess I don’t know if I’m alive right now;
I haven’t heard my heart beat in days,
I keep holding my breath for the moment the plane goes down
and I have to save enough oxygen to get my friends through.
But I finally found the argument against suicide and it’s us.
We’re the effigies that haunt America’s nights harder
the longer they spend burning us,
we are scaring the shit out of people by spreading,
by refusing to die: what are we but a fire?
We know everything we do is so the kids after us
will be able to follow something towards safety;
what can I call us but lighthouse"
posted by C'est la D.C. at 2:12 PM on January 5, 2017 [30 favorites]
Excerpt:
"I’ll confess I don’t know if I’m alive right now;
I haven’t heard my heart beat in days,
I keep holding my breath for the moment the plane goes down
and I have to save enough oxygen to get my friends through.
But I finally found the argument against suicide and it’s us.
We’re the effigies that haunt America’s nights harder
the longer they spend burning us,
we are scaring the shit out of people by spreading,
by refusing to die: what are we but a fire?
We know everything we do is so the kids after us
will be able to follow something towards safety;
what can I call us but lighthouse"
posted by C'est la D.C. at 2:12 PM on January 5, 2017 [30 favorites]
It's 2002 if we're exceptionally fortunate. My worry is that it's August 2001.
Our next President will have his name emblazoned on properties worldwide, and is famous for his thin skin. I'll be surprised if they wait until the 21st.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:14 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Our next President will have his name emblazoned on properties worldwide, and is famous for his thin skin. I'll be surprised if they wait until the 21st.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:14 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Trump's rhetoric is not about citizenship status, at the heart of it. It's about whiteness and racism.
Right, but citizenship status is the tool of choice being used to support whiteness and racism. If who can be a citizen is changed, then the definition of who is an American can shift as well. So, that's why I'm supportive of a more broad definition of citizenship.
posted by FJT at 2:20 PM on January 5, 2017
Right, but citizenship status is the tool of choice being used to support whiteness and racism. If who can be a citizen is changed, then the definition of who is an American can shift as well. So, that's why I'm supportive of a more broad definition of citizenship.
posted by FJT at 2:20 PM on January 5, 2017
Also, it's weird that their figures only show the linear relations implied by their models, and not the raw values those models were inferred from. The raw values could have been fit on the same figures, and would show how well the model is fitting. It makes me wonder how good their fit was.
This is a normal way to show effect sizes for logit or probit models, and the raw data would just be big globs at y-values of zero and one.
The graph is showing the estimated effect of one variable out of many in a multiple regressions, so it's showing you the estimated covariation of racism and sexism indices with Trump voting, holding all other variables constant at some specified values (probably the means, or modes for binary variables or sets of variables). I suppose you could display all the data points that had those mean values for all other variables, if there is even one observation that does.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:21 PM on January 5, 2017
This is a normal way to show effect sizes for logit or probit models, and the raw data would just be big globs at y-values of zero and one.
The graph is showing the estimated effect of one variable out of many in a multiple regressions, so it's showing you the estimated covariation of racism and sexism indices with Trump voting, holding all other variables constant at some specified values (probably the means, or modes for binary variables or sets of variables). I suppose you could display all the data points that had those mean values for all other variables, if there is even one observation that does.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:21 PM on January 5, 2017
So, if you take a piece of federal land in Arizona, cede it over to—transfer it to the state of Arizona
9.2 million acres of federal land were given to Arizona in 1912 under the provisions of the enabling act that granted statehood. These lands are held in trust for the purpose of generating revenue. It's where a lot of our school funding comes from. Broadly speaking, state trust lands around Phoenix and Tucson are sold off and developed, and trust lands elsewhere generate revenue through grazing leases or other resource extraction.
Let's check in with the state to learn a little bit more about these lands: "Arizona Trust Land is land managed by the State Land Department. Trust Land is not public land!"
If past is precedent, federal-to-state land transfers will be bad for anyone who likes to go outdoors.
posted by compartment at 2:23 PM on January 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
9.2 million acres of federal land were given to Arizona in 1912 under the provisions of the enabling act that granted statehood. These lands are held in trust for the purpose of generating revenue. It's where a lot of our school funding comes from. Broadly speaking, state trust lands around Phoenix and Tucson are sold off and developed, and trust lands elsewhere generate revenue through grazing leases or other resource extraction.
Let's check in with the state to learn a little bit more about these lands: "Arizona Trust Land is land managed by the State Land Department. Trust Land is not public land!"
If past is precedent, federal-to-state land transfers will be bad for anyone who likes to go outdoors.
posted by compartment at 2:23 PM on January 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
If who can be a citizen is changed, then the definition of who is an American can shift as well. So, that's why I'm supportive of a more broad definition of citizenship.
Citizenship is not a guarantee that you can run for the presidency. People under 35 can't run. Expats can't run.
Basically, this is one of the most trivial issues the Constitution has. I'd rather insert the ERA or a right to privacy or a positive right to vote. Running for the presidency? Least of my concerns.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 2:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Citizenship is not a guarantee that you can run for the presidency. People under 35 can't run. Expats can't run.
Basically, this is one of the most trivial issues the Constitution has. I'd rather insert the ERA or a right to privacy or a positive right to vote. Running for the presidency? Least of my concerns.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 2:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
You'll note he's not exactly frothing at the mouth about white immigrants from elsewhere--say, from Russia or Western Europe.
Here in Northern New England, my expectation would be that a large percentage of people are descended from Québécois or other Canadians who simply walked across the border in the late 19th or early 20th century and didn't care about or weren't aware that they officially needed to go through a naturalization process.
I've encountered people on the right who, even when presented with the text of the 14th Amendment, insist that birthright citizenship isn't a real thing in the Constitution, and Ted Cruz for example refers to birthright citizenship as a "policy". If those people get their way, at some point I think it's going to be a rude awakening for lots of white people: probably not due to actions taken en masse, but to realize that their birth certificate is no longer proof of citizenship and they may not have adequate proof under the new regime, and any official who has it out for them can apply the same maybe-you-need-to-be-deported pressure currently reserved for PoC.
Also BTW, on the constitutional requirement that a president be "natural-born" a citizen, note that the premise is that this is a way to prevent foreign powers from capturing the ultimate executive authority in the U.S., which Trump's election has demonstrated to be false.
posted by XMLicious at 2:34 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
My worry is that it's August 2001.
I'm feeling like it's September 2001, only in slow motion. (Also, donaldsutherlandpointing.gif.)
posted by octobersurprise at 2:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm feeling like it's September 2001, only in slow motion. (Also, donaldsutherlandpointing.gif.)
posted by octobersurprise at 2:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
This Republican congresswoman's Twitter poll on Obamacare didn't go very well for her
A Twitter poll by ardent Obamacare foe Rep. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn., on whether the health-care law should be repealed backfired big-time Wednesday as lots more people — a whole lot more people — tweeted "No," rather than "Yes."
84% voted NO.
posted by futz at 2:52 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
A Twitter poll by ardent Obamacare foe Rep. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn., on whether the health-care law should be repealed backfired big-time Wednesday as lots more people — a whole lot more people — tweeted "No," rather than "Yes."
84% voted NO.
posted by futz at 2:52 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Huh, you don't say that people like having (relatively) affordable, reliable healthcare. Hrrm.
(Also, has no one gotten the memo that INTERNET POLLING WITHOUT CONTROLS IS DUMB AND OPEN TO BEING GAMED?)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
(Also, has no one gotten the memo that INTERNET POLLING WITHOUT CONTROLS IS DUMB AND OPEN TO BEING GAMED?)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
That poem is fabulous, C'est D.C. I am going to go add it to my little ebook of poems that breathe warm sunlight right into the depth of my belly, making me laugh and giving the strength to stagger on. Thank you for bringing it here. Thank you.
posted by sciatrix at 2:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 2:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
The strings are tightening:
€9m Russian loan to French far-right leader Marine Le Pen is called in
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:58 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
€9m Russian loan to French far-right leader Marine Le Pen is called in
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:58 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Democrats Scrutinize Rex Tillerson, Trump's Pick For Secretary Of State (NPR Morning Edition segment, January 5, 2017 - transcript up now)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:58 PM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
GREENE: You going to vote for Tillerson in committee and on the Senate floor?More _rumpian shenanigans with his picks.
COONS: I don't know yet. I look forward to a full hearing. One of my core concerns - and I've expressed this to the committee chair - is that he's scheduling his hearing for the same day that we will be doing something that's inelegantly called the vote-a-rama (ph) as we try to...
GREENE: The vote-a-rama?
COONS: Yes (laughter).
GREENE: What is that?
COONS: It's an arcane piece of Senate procedure where in order to adopt reconciliation instructions under a budget bill, we have an open season where as many amendments as possible get voted on.
GREENE: Oh, I see. You're saying this hearing should not have any distractions, it should be...
COONS: Exactly.
GREENE: ...Somewhere else.
COONS: And it may well happen on a day where we are literally voting continuously for 24 hours. I don't think that's the right day to hold a hearing where the members of the Foreign Relations Committee who have real concerns - both Republicans and Democrats - want to hear his full answers, not just race in and out.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:58 PM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Joe in Australia: The strings are tightening
And we still have no idea of how much _rump owes (or is owned) by the Russians, because we still haven't seen his taxes. (Search results for "trump taxes" first have results from waay back in the heady days of October 2016.)
posted by filthy light thief at 3:00 PM on January 5, 2017
And we still have no idea of how much _rump owes (or is owned) by the Russians, because we still haven't seen his taxes. (Search results for "trump taxes" first have results from waay back in the heady days of October 2016.)
posted by filthy light thief at 3:00 PM on January 5, 2017
More from NPR this morning: When It Comes To Russia, So Far Donald Trump Mostly Stands Alone
Russia undermined our democracy when they helped Donnie win, so why would the puppet wish to scrutinize whose hand is up its arse? Could it even question the puppet master? Without that hand, it's lifeless.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:05 PM on January 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
On Wednesday, Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told CNN he is mystified by Trump's feelings toward Russia.... "When it comes to Russia, he seems to have a blind spot. And I'm completely perplexed, because the Russians are undermining democracy throughout the entire world; they're taking land owned by others by force; they did hack into our political system; they're doing it to other political systems, and they need to pay a price."Oh Lindsey, you're so close to putting those pieces together! Here, let me help you:
Russia undermined our democracy when they helped Donnie win, so why would the puppet wish to scrutinize whose hand is up its arse? Could it even question the puppet master? Without that hand, it's lifeless.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:05 PM on January 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
Here in Northern New England, my expectation would be that a large percentage of people are descended from Québécois or other Canadians who simply walked across the border in the late 19th or early 20th century and didn't care about or weren't aware that they officially needed to go through a naturalization process.
Yeah, that would include... *ticks off fingers* I'd guess about half my great-grandparents*, actually, including one dude who outright refused point blank to say a single word about his past or family or where he'd come from, so fuck knows how he bothered dealing with local citizenship authorities. I always figured he had picked up and left and gone to a new community in order to more effectively pass as white and sidestep some kind of racism, whether against First Nations people or black people or whatever was in the area.
My partner's Canadian and just immigrated down here two years ago, and they're white enough to count. I have been leveraging the privilege of "oh hey well this applies to white Canadians trying to move here towards American spouses too, look what a fuck awful and ridiculous process immigration is for people you fuckers think of as in-group" for everything I'm worth in the past three years, trying to make more people empathize with immigrants who have darker skins. Trust me. I fucking get it. And this stupid Presidency clause is still not worth the return on investment to change.
If we're going to push for greater acceptance for immigrants to America, those hungry and motivated Americans celebrated only after they've been dead at least thirty years, there are more fucking effective things to push for than the Presidency for naturalized citizens. Immigration reform, for one. That'll improve the lives of more people than the tiny fucking case study of some naturalized citizen who has somehow parlayed their life into a powerful political career successful enough and capable of generating enough popular support to be a viable Presidential candidate. That hypothetical dude (you know it's a dude) doesn't need the help anyway; his life is pretty great. The rest of those Americans who weren't born here could probably use a bit of a hand.
*three of my grandparents and both of my parents were born in New York State, coincidentally enough
posted by sciatrix at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that would include... *ticks off fingers* I'd guess about half my great-grandparents*, actually, including one dude who outright refused point blank to say a single word about his past or family or where he'd come from, so fuck knows how he bothered dealing with local citizenship authorities. I always figured he had picked up and left and gone to a new community in order to more effectively pass as white and sidestep some kind of racism, whether against First Nations people or black people or whatever was in the area.
My partner's Canadian and just immigrated down here two years ago, and they're white enough to count. I have been leveraging the privilege of "oh hey well this applies to white Canadians trying to move here towards American spouses too, look what a fuck awful and ridiculous process immigration is for people you fuckers think of as in-group" for everything I'm worth in the past three years, trying to make more people empathize with immigrants who have darker skins. Trust me. I fucking get it. And this stupid Presidency clause is still not worth the return on investment to change.
If we're going to push for greater acceptance for immigrants to America, those hungry and motivated Americans celebrated only after they've been dead at least thirty years, there are more fucking effective things to push for than the Presidency for naturalized citizens. Immigration reform, for one. That'll improve the lives of more people than the tiny fucking case study of some naturalized citizen who has somehow parlayed their life into a powerful political career successful enough and capable of generating enough popular support to be a viable Presidential candidate. That hypothetical dude (you know it's a dude) doesn't need the help anyway; his life is pretty great. The rest of those Americans who weren't born here could probably use a bit of a hand.
*three of my grandparents and both of my parents were born in New York State, coincidentally enough
posted by sciatrix at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
When the Constitution was written the fastest means of communication was by bits of paper transported by horse or ship, and the fastest way of transferring wealth was to load up a boat or wagon with gold and hope it got to its intended destination before pirates or a hurricane got it. This probably made the citizenship and presidency requirements seem like adequate safeguards.
Today a person can be invisibly beholden for vast sums of money transferred over an untraceable patchwork of instantaneous intercontinental financial networks, and "suggestions" for such a beholden person to follow can be transmitted just as instantaneously based on information gathered within hours from all over the world.
There were people of vast wealth in the 18th century but the mostly had countries of their own and no way to project either their wealth or influence very far reliably. So today you can create a remote-control President who, just like those nifty cars and toy helicopters, will do exactly what you say and you can immediately tell whether he did and what the result is and what you therefore need to tell him next. If the Founders had understood that to be a credible risk, there would probably be things about financial disclosure and wealth limits in the Constitution itself.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Today a person can be invisibly beholden for vast sums of money transferred over an untraceable patchwork of instantaneous intercontinental financial networks, and "suggestions" for such a beholden person to follow can be transmitted just as instantaneously based on information gathered within hours from all over the world.
There were people of vast wealth in the 18th century but the mostly had countries of their own and no way to project either their wealth or influence very far reliably. So today you can create a remote-control President who, just like those nifty cars and toy helicopters, will do exactly what you say and you can immediately tell whether he did and what the result is and what you therefore need to tell him next. If the Founders had understood that to be a credible risk, there would probably be things about financial disclosure and wealth limits in the Constitution itself.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Putin is a terrible guy but I can't help admire how good he is at the Great Game. He's like a throwback to the late 19th century and Bismarck et al.
posted by Justinian at 3:15 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:15 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Putin is a terrible guy but I can't help admire how good he is at the Great Game.
Yup, he's an evil genius. I can see why an evil idiot would look up to him.
posted by diogenes at 3:22 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Yup, he's an evil genius. I can see why an evil idiot would look up to him.
posted by diogenes at 3:22 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
‘Grow up, Donald… Time to be an adult,’ Biden says in PBS NewsHour interview
“Grow up, Donald. Grow up,” Biden said in an interview with the PBS NewsHour’s Judy Woodruff. “Time to be an adult. You’re president. You’ve got to do something. Show us what you have.”
posted by futz at 3:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
“Grow up, Donald. Grow up,” Biden said in an interview with the PBS NewsHour’s Judy Woodruff. “Time to be an adult. You’re president. You’ve got to do something. Show us what you have.”
posted by futz at 3:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
2017 Senate votes 51 to 48 to Repeal Obamacare.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
2017 Senate votes 51 to 48 to Repeal Obamacare.
Remember all those so called persuadable Republicans like Flake, McCain, Sasse, Paul, Snowe?
They're not. They're going to play Lucy again. They'll vote exactly like Cruz and Cotton.
Just like they always do.
All Republicans are Trump. They always have been.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:38 PM on January 5, 2017 [34 favorites]
Remember all those so called persuadable Republicans like Flake, McCain, Sasse, Paul, Snowe?
They're not. They're going to play Lucy again. They'll vote exactly like Cruz and Cotton.
Just like they always do.
All Republicans are Trump. They always have been.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:38 PM on January 5, 2017 [34 favorites]
If the Founders had understood that to be a credible risk, there would probably be things about financial disclosure and wealth limits in the Constitution itself.
According to Wikipedia, even federal tax filings were public documents in the 19th century:
So, I wonder if a combination of public records and perhaps other factors might have led them to never anticipate that someone's wealth and connections could be kept secret.Tax filings in the U.S. were not private when federal income taxation began in 1861, but controversy led to Congress prohibiting any examination of tax records by 1894. Congress allowed public examination of individual and corporate tax payments only in 1923, but the disclosure was eliminated by 1924.
posted by XMLicious at 3:39 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
U.S. intercepts capture senior Russian officials celebrating Trump win
-- The ebullient reaction among high-ranking Russian officials — including some who U.S. officials believe had knowledge of the country’s cyber campaign to interfere in the U.S. election — contributed to the U.S. intelligence community’s assessment that Moscow’s efforts were aimed at least in part at helping Trump win the White House.
-- Even so, the messages also revealed that top officials in Russia anticipated that Clinton would win and did not expect their effort to achieve its goal.
Russian officials “were as surprised as the rest of the world,” said the second U.S. official who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.
“In this case, you do learn things after the fact based on how they feel about it,” the first official said, adding that the intercepts added to the intelligence community’s “shifting level of confidence.”
The intercepts also echoed some public comments in Moscow. “Trump understood the mood of the people and kept going until the end, when nobody believed in him,” Putin said at a news conference last month, adding with a wry smile, “except for you and me.”
posted by futz at 3:49 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
-- The ebullient reaction among high-ranking Russian officials — including some who U.S. officials believe had knowledge of the country’s cyber campaign to interfere in the U.S. election — contributed to the U.S. intelligence community’s assessment that Moscow’s efforts were aimed at least in part at helping Trump win the White House.
-- Even so, the messages also revealed that top officials in Russia anticipated that Clinton would win and did not expect their effort to achieve its goal.
Russian officials “were as surprised as the rest of the world,” said the second U.S. official who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.
“In this case, you do learn things after the fact based on how they feel about it,” the first official said, adding that the intercepts added to the intelligence community’s “shifting level of confidence.”
The intercepts also echoed some public comments in Moscow. “Trump understood the mood of the people and kept going until the end, when nobody believed in him,” Putin said at a news conference last month, adding with a wry smile, “except for you and me.”
posted by futz at 3:49 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
All Republicans are Trump. They always have been.
And as expected, the NeverTrumpers have also been completely silent. Well, not entirely silent, they've obviously found time for stuff like lecturing us on how mean we're being to the guy who thinks the KKK is too left-wing. We've got the government forcing witnesses to appear, defunding Planned Parenthood, selling off of federal lands, targeting the livelihoods of federal workers, voter suppression, and anti-LGBTQ laws, yet nary a word. It was always too good to be true, but at least now it's out there.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
And as expected, the NeverTrumpers have also been completely silent. Well, not entirely silent, they've obviously found time for stuff like lecturing us on how mean we're being to the guy who thinks the KKK is too left-wing. We've got the government forcing witnesses to appear, defunding Planned Parenthood, selling off of federal lands, targeting the livelihoods of federal workers, voter suppression, and anti-LGBTQ laws, yet nary a word. It was always too good to be true, but at least now it's out there.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Immigration reform, for one.
100% yes, but I'm also just gonna call bullshit when anyone says an immigrant or minority shouldn't be president because they aren't American enough.
posted by FJT at 4:12 PM on January 5, 2017
100% yes, but I'm also just gonna call bullshit when anyone says an immigrant or minority shouldn't be president because they aren't American enough.
posted by FJT at 4:12 PM on January 5, 2017
It was always too good to be true, but at least now it's out there.
We have a long, deep, abiding, irrefutable body of evidence that there is no such thing as a moderate Republican. NeverTrump was always a complete farce, the only reason they were against him at all was they didn't think he could win.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:19 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
We have a long, deep, abiding, irrefutable body of evidence that there is no such thing as a moderate Republican. NeverTrump was always a complete farce, the only reason they were against him at all was they didn't think he could win.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:19 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
well, an immigrant can't be President, but a native born minority can. Like, I see the kerfluffle upthread about this, but I don't get why it's bullshit that immigrants can't be President.
posted by zutalors! at 4:20 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 4:20 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
LOL Good times: How did NBC get "an exclusive look into the top secret report he (Obama) was presented?" Who gave them this report and why? Politics!
The Democratic National Committee would not allow the FBI to study or see its computer info after it was supposedly hacked by Russia...…
[I can't wait for more though]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:32 PM on January 5, 2017
The Democratic National Committee would not allow the FBI to study or see its computer info after it was supposedly hacked by Russia...…
[I can't wait for more though]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:32 PM on January 5, 2017
How nostalgia for white Christian America drove so many Americans to vote for Trump
From Andy Griffith's home town. They literally want to Make America Mayberry Again.
And lemme just mix-and-match some quotes to make these people look extra-horrible.
From Andy Griffith's home town. They literally want to Make America Mayberry Again.
From early 2000 to about 2010, about 9,000 private-sector jobs were lost when factories that made clothes went overseas.OK, so most of the jobs left before Obama took office, but it's his fault. Got it.
...
Thomas, who blames the loss of his $75,000-a-year factory job on Obama, now makes $18,000 working in his friend’s gun store and pawnshop.
Tucker and her husband, David, said they voted for Trump because they want a more limited federal government. They mentioned social issues such as abortion, same-sex marriage and school prayer.OK, sooo...you want a limited government that gets up women's wherevers, tells people who they can marry, and makes kids in school pray a certain way. I don't think that word "limited" means what they think it means.
And lemme just mix-and-match some quotes to make these people look extra-horrible.
African Americans who have voiced concerns over what Trump will do for the poor would have a different perspective if they tried harder to help themselves, she said.posted by kirkaracha at 4:33 PM on January 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
“I think black people think they’re owed something,” she said. “I think if they acted differently people would be apt to help them.”
...
Ron Jessup, 68, who grew up in Mount Airy during that era, found the place generally friendly then, he said — as long as he and other blacks obeyed the racist laws and social mores of the time.
If African Americans went to the theater, they sat upstairs, he said. If they went to the restaurants, they avoided the counter. “We understood what was considered our place,” said Jessup, who is retired from his job as a high school principal in nearby Winston-Salem. Even now, all five Surry County commissioners are white.
> WaPo: House Republicans revive obscure rule that could allow them to slash the pay of individual federal workers to $1
The Holman Rule is truly evil and so easily abused.
So let us say Perdue donates $100,000 to the PAC to re-elect his favorite pet congressperson. Then he drops by the the congressperson's office and hands them a list with the names of all the chicken inspectors. Congressperson X then attaches those names to a bill being voted on which is easily passed by the Republican majority in the House and Senate. And because of the hiring freeze, suddenly we have no chicken inspectors. Or EPA inspectors or mine inspectors or people who do environmental impact studies. We have a Congress run by people who want to shrink the Federal Government so small it can be drowned in a bathtub and now they have a very powerful tool that can do just that.
*Who runs this country, the people of the United States or the people on the people’s payroll? I found this very odd language because I sense that he aligns himself with "the people of the United States" and not with "the people on the people's payroll" and yet the latter is exactly what he is.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:38 PM on January 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
The Holman Rule is truly evil and so easily abused.
He [Rep. H. Morgan Griffith R-Va.] favors a strategic application of the law, likening it to a bullet from a sniper rifle rather than a shotgun. It’s unlikely — but not impossible — that members will “go crazy” and cut huge swaths of the workforce, he said.So the guy in charge of bringing the rule back admits that it could be abused. And he loves the idea of using it to shut down programs that he personally does not like. The way to shut down programs that you don't like or think are wasteful is to introduce legislation not just fire the people doing that job. (And I use the term "fire" because that is the effect of reducing their pay to a dollar a day.) This rule means any part of the government can be shut down by one congressman. It also means that every civil servant can now be fired on a whim by any of the 538 congress members.
“I can’t tell you it won’t happen,” he said in an interview in his office. “The power is there. But isn’t that appropriate? Who runs this country, the people of the United States or the people on the people’s payroll?”*
So let us say Perdue donates $100,000 to the PAC to re-elect his favorite pet congressperson. Then he drops by the the congressperson's office and hands them a list with the names of all the chicken inspectors. Congressperson X then attaches those names to a bill being voted on which is easily passed by the Republican majority in the House and Senate. And because of the hiring freeze, suddenly we have no chicken inspectors. Or EPA inspectors or mine inspectors or people who do environmental impact studies. We have a Congress run by people who want to shrink the Federal Government so small it can be drowned in a bathtub and now they have a very powerful tool that can do just that.
*Who runs this country, the people of the United States or the people on the people’s payroll? I found this very odd language because I sense that he aligns himself with "the people of the United States" and not with "the people on the people's payroll" and yet the latter is exactly what he is.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:38 PM on January 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
Its good that they're finally doing something about jobs. Granted, its eliminating jobs, but at least they're doing something. /hamburger
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:42 PM on January 5, 2017
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:42 PM on January 5, 2017
Trump’s DC Hotel Tagged With $5 Million in Unpaid Worker Liens
posted by futz at 4:42 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by futz at 4:42 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
roomthreeseventeen,
What are you referring to the NBC exclusive look thing? It is probably pretty obvious but I am confused.
posted by futz at 4:45 PM on January 5, 2017
What are you referring to the NBC exclusive look thing? It is probably pretty obvious but I am confused.
posted by futz at 4:45 PM on January 5, 2017
U.S. intercepts capture senior Russian officials celebrating Trump win
It's true. I saw pictures on TV of thousands of Russians dancing in the streets across the river in New Jersey when the Clinton campaign came tumbling down.
posted by JackFlash at 4:47 PM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
It's true. I saw pictures on TV of thousands of Russians dancing in the streets across the river in New Jersey when the Clinton campaign came tumbling down.
posted by JackFlash at 4:47 PM on January 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Interesting podcast on narcissistic personality disorder and how dangerous it would be if someone in power happened to have it.
It helped me understand why he continues to make what seem to be unnecessarily problematic and potentially self-destructive tweets.
It also made me realize that I hope he never stops tweeting. It's such a clear window into how disordered his thinking is. It will be a sad day if somebody convinces him that he would be wise to hide his thoughts. On the "bright side," if he really does have NPD, that day will probably never come.
posted by diogenes at 4:48 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
It helped me understand why he continues to make what seem to be unnecessarily problematic and potentially self-destructive tweets.
It also made me realize that I hope he never stops tweeting. It's such a clear window into how disordered his thinking is. It will be a sad day if somebody convinces him that he would be wise to hide his thoughts. On the "bright side," if he really does have NPD, that day will probably never come.
posted by diogenes at 4:48 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Paul Ryan is sure grinning a lot lately. I do not like to see Paul Ryan grinning.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
Trump’s DC Hotel Tagged With $5 Million in Unpaid Worker Liens
What that article does not mention is this
A clause in the lease requires that Trump Old Post Office LLC notify the GSA in writing within 10 days of any mechanic’s lien being filed. Within 30 days of the filing, Trump’s firm is required to have any liens “discharged” unless it contests the claims being made. Spokespersons for the GSA did not immediately respond to requests for comment.From WaPo Two contractors allege getting stiffed for work on Trump’s D.C. hotel
However it will take somebody or some institution to enforce the rules and DJT has already broken several rules and promises he made when he won the bid to take over the Old Post Office. I can't see anybody from the GSA taking it upon themselves to revoking the President's lease.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Pressed submit too early.
The reason why I took issue with the "immigrant as president" is the same reason why some would call me an "immigrant". It's a technicality. It's just that the actual constitution, the same one I was raised to cherish and what not, says you can't be one.
In other words, I'm being the best kind of correct.
Right, but I don't think anyone was saying that second generation immigrants (though i agree, the term is weird) can't or shouldn't be President.
I think I don't completely get what you're saying here.
posted by zutalors! at 4:59 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The reason why I took issue with the "immigrant as president" is the same reason why some would call me an "immigrant". It's a technicality. It's just that the actual constitution, the same one I was raised to cherish and what not, says you can't be one.
In other words, I'm being the best kind of correct.
Right, but I don't think anyone was saying that second generation immigrants (though i agree, the term is weird) can't or shouldn't be President.
I think I don't completely get what you're saying here.
posted by zutalors! at 4:59 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Immigrants are Americans.
Well, some immigrants (certainly those who acquire citizenship, and I'd also probably include permanent residents who are intending to stay here indefinitely). Some immigrants intend to stay for a short time, and do not consider themselves Americans. Even some who plan to stay indefinitely don't. My wife has a green card and absolutely does not consider herself an American.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Well, some immigrants (certainly those who acquire citizenship, and I'd also probably include permanent residents who are intending to stay here indefinitely). Some immigrants intend to stay for a short time, and do not consider themselves Americans. Even some who plan to stay indefinitely don't. My wife has a green card and absolutely does not consider herself an American.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:08 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
That's José Andrés as in the culinary consultant for Hannibal?
Eat him, José! Eat him! WHY DID YOU NOT DO THIS SOONER
posted by tel3path at 5:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
Eat him, José! Eat him! WHY DID YOU NOT DO THIS SOONER
posted by tel3path at 5:10 PM on January 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm even more outraged at the people who brushed me off when I tried to explain to them that I, and millions of other Americans, depended on Obamacare and just said they didn't want to pay for it. Every one of them was above 50 and white. I'm willing to bet a lot of them use Social Security. The hypocrisy boggles.
I know that a lot of them will suffer along with us, but I don't get much comfort from that since they're dead set on dragging us down with them.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:27 PM on January 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
I know that a lot of them will suffer along with us, but I don't get much comfort from that since they're dead set on dragging us down with them.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 5:27 PM on January 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Eat him, José! Eat him! WHY DID YOU NOT DO THIS SOONER
I dunno, I can understand some reluctance there. Have you seen the guy?
posted by contraption at 5:29 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I dunno, I can understand some reluctance there. Have you seen the guy?
posted by contraption at 5:29 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
A little bit of bright news: First-ever Dominican Congressman Turned His Swearing-In Ceremony Into a Merengue Turn-Up.
posted by TwoStride at 5:35 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 5:35 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
NYTimes In Break With Precedent, Obama Envoys Are Denied Extensions Past Inauguration Day
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on January 5, 2017 [42 favorites]
President-elect Donald J. Trump’s transition staff has issued a blanket edict requiring politically appointed ambassadors to leave their overseas posts by Inauguration Day, according to several American diplomats familiar with the plan, breaking with decades of precedent by declining to provide even the briefest of grace periods.Unbelievably petty.
The mandate — issued “without exceptions,” according to a terse State Department cable sent on Dec. 23, diplomats who saw it said — threatens to leave the United States without Senate-confirmed envoys for months in critical nations like Germany, Canada and Britain. In the past, administrations of both parties have often granted extensions on a case-by-case basis to allow a handful of ambassadors, particularly those with school-age children, to remain in place for weeks or months.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on January 5, 2017 [42 favorites]
CNN just had Anderson Cooper deliver a "Breaking News" tidbit claiming that the transition team has inquired with Congressional leaders about procuring funding for "The Wall" during the upcoming appropriations process. I.e. the U.S. pays for it, not Mexico.
This is my surprised face.
posted by XMLicious at 6:02 PM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
This is my surprised face.
posted by XMLicious at 6:02 PM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Hold onto your seats, here is a shocker
CNN Sources: Trump will ask Congress, not Mexico, to pay for border wall
CNN Sources: Trump will ask Congress, not Mexico, to pay for border wall
President-elect Donald Trump's transition team has signaled to congressional Republican leaders that the President-elect's preference is to fund the border wall through the appropriations process as soon as April, according to House Republican officials.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:02 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
House GOP appallingly votes to conceal cost of Obamacare repeal to taxpayers
On page 25 of the final rules package Republicans adopted this year, a subsection instructs the director of the Congressional Budget Office to perform a 10-year cost analysis of each bill reported by the House...
Except for one thing:
(4) LIMITATION.—This subsection shall not apply to any bill or joint resolution, or amendment thereto or conference report thereon—
(A) repealing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and title I and subtitle B of title II of the Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010;
(B) reforming the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010; or
(C) for which the chair of the Committee on the Budget has made an adjustment to the allocations, levels, or limits contained in the most recently adopted concurrent resolution on the budget.
In other words, the new Republican rules package specifically instructs the CBO not to say how much it would cost to repeal Obamacare.
It is worth pointing out that the last time the CBO did a cost analysis of repealing Obamacare, in 2015, they found that it would increase the deficit by $353 billion. That is important, because Republicans are hoping to repeal much of Obamacare using budget reconciliation, which requires any legislation that increases the deficit to expire after 10 years
I keep searching for words to explain how I feel when I inform people of what is really going on (nobody that I talk to is fully aware but thankfully I am preaching to the choir when I tell them) and I keep coming back to evil. I could sputter about hypocrisy blah blah blah but it is just fucking evil.
posted by futz at 6:07 PM on January 5, 2017 [46 favorites]
On page 25 of the final rules package Republicans adopted this year, a subsection instructs the director of the Congressional Budget Office to perform a 10-year cost analysis of each bill reported by the House...
Except for one thing:
(4) LIMITATION.—This subsection shall not apply to any bill or joint resolution, or amendment thereto or conference report thereon—
(A) repealing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and title I and subtitle B of title II of the Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010;
(B) reforming the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010; or
(C) for which the chair of the Committee on the Budget has made an adjustment to the allocations, levels, or limits contained in the most recently adopted concurrent resolution on the budget.
In other words, the new Republican rules package specifically instructs the CBO not to say how much it would cost to repeal Obamacare.
It is worth pointing out that the last time the CBO did a cost analysis of repealing Obamacare, in 2015, they found that it would increase the deficit by $353 billion. That is important, because Republicans are hoping to repeal much of Obamacare using budget reconciliation, which requires any legislation that increases the deficit to expire after 10 years
I keep searching for words to explain how I feel when I inform people of what is really going on (nobody that I talk to is fully aware but thankfully I am preaching to the choir when I tell them) and I keep coming back to evil. I could sputter about hypocrisy blah blah blah but it is just fucking evil.
posted by futz at 6:07 PM on January 5, 2017 [46 favorites]
The GOP Congress was always FAR more evil than Trump. Republicans are hellbent on destroying America. That's not hyperbole, it's just facts.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:09 PM on January 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:09 PM on January 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
President-elect Donald J. Trump’s transition staff has issued a blanket edict requiring politically appointed ambassadors to leave their overseas posts by Inauguration Day
Does the president-elect have any authority to do this? I know he could fire everyone once he's president (and I suppose this heads-up is marginally better than getting fired out of the blue in two weeks), but what legal power does he have?
Leaving multiple countries without ambassadors for months seems a bit short-sighted, especially considering how far behind schedule the are in other appointments.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:22 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
We're entering a Worst Of compilation of the darkest and most shameful episodes in American history.
I forgot Teapot Dome but that's in the mail.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:26 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Former CIA director James Woolsey has noped out of the Trump transition team.
posted by peeedro at 6:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 6:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
Trump’s Debts Are Widely Held on Wall Street, Creating New Potential Conflicts
More than 150 financial institutions hold debts connected to president-elect, analysis shows
"Last May, Mr. Trump filed a financial-disclosure form with the Federal Election Commission that listed 16 loans worth $315 million that his businesses had received from 10 companies, including Deutsche Bank AG. But that form reported debts only for companies he controls, excluding more than $1.5 billion lent to partnerships that are 30%-owned by him."
*sputters*
posted by futz at 6:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
More than 150 financial institutions hold debts connected to president-elect, analysis shows
"Last May, Mr. Trump filed a financial-disclosure form with the Federal Election Commission that listed 16 loans worth $315 million that his businesses had received from 10 companies, including Deutsche Bank AG. But that form reported debts only for companies he controls, excluding more than $1.5 billion lent to partnerships that are 30%-owned by him."
*sputters*
posted by futz at 6:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
That is important, because Republicans are hoping to repeal much of Obamacare using budget reconciliation, which requires any legislation that increases the deficit to expire after 10 years
Right, and I don't see how this can be legal? Budget reconciliation cannot be used for things which increase the deficit over 10 years. How, then, can it be legal to simply instruct the CBO not to score something you wish to pass through reconciliation? One could do that for anything. Want to make permanent tax cuts without cutting the budget? Instruct the CBO not to score it! And so on.
Anyone have any ideas how that can be? Or, once again, is it a matter of "Fuck you, that's my name."
posted by Justinian at 6:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Right, and I don't see how this can be legal? Budget reconciliation cannot be used for things which increase the deficit over 10 years. How, then, can it be legal to simply instruct the CBO not to score something you wish to pass through reconciliation? One could do that for anything. Want to make permanent tax cuts without cutting the budget? Instruct the CBO not to score it! And so on.
Anyone have any ideas how that can be? Or, once again, is it a matter of "Fuck you, that's my name."
posted by Justinian at 6:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Anyone have any ideas how that can be? Or, once again, is it a matter of "Fuck you, that's my name."
Because they're destroying the orderly operation of government on the way to one party kleptocracy. Laws are for losers, and they won.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:51 PM on January 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
Because they're destroying the orderly operation of government on the way to one party kleptocracy. Laws are for losers, and they won.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:51 PM on January 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
On the subject of Teapot Dome, I remember reading once that for all of his faults Warren G. Harding wasn't personally corrupt - it was more that he played favorites, trusted the wrong people, and made poor choices in friends than any intentional ill will on his end.
The same can't be said for Trump. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's rotten through and through.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
The same can't be said for Trump. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's rotten through and through.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 6:55 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Via Vox:
The reconciliation process normally can’t be used to pass legislation that increases the deficit 10 or more years into the future; that’s why the Bush tax cuts in 2001 expired after 10 years. Since Obamacare reduced the deficit, it would stand to reason that repealing it increases the deficit in the long run, and runs afoul of this rule. To get around this, the reconciliation bill preserves Obamacare’s cuts to Medicare doctor payments, and so is scored as reducing the deficit, because those cuts plus the cost of the insurance subsidies and Medicaid expansion swamp the revenue loss from repealing all of Obamacare’s taxes.
So that's how.
posted by notyou at 7:11 PM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
The reconciliation process normally can’t be used to pass legislation that increases the deficit 10 or more years into the future; that’s why the Bush tax cuts in 2001 expired after 10 years. Since Obamacare reduced the deficit, it would stand to reason that repealing it increases the deficit in the long run, and runs afoul of this rule. To get around this, the reconciliation bill preserves Obamacare’s cuts to Medicare doctor payments, and so is scored as reducing the deficit, because those cuts plus the cost of the insurance subsidies and Medicaid expansion swamp the revenue loss from repealing all of Obamacare’s taxes.
So that's how.
posted by notyou at 7:11 PM on January 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
The same can't be said for Trump. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's rotten through and through.
I wouldn't quite say "he knows exactly what he's doing" so much as that (1) he believes in acting on instinct, and that (2) his instincts are kleptocratic, self-aggrandizing and white-nationalist (not in any particular order).
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:11 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
I wouldn't quite say "he knows exactly what he's doing" so much as that (1) he believes in acting on instinct, and that (2) his instincts are kleptocratic, self-aggrandizing and white-nationalist (not in any particular order).
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:11 PM on January 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
the reconciliation bill preserves Obamacare’s cuts to Medicare doctor payments, and so is scored as reducing the deficit, because those cuts plus the cost of the insurance subsidies and Medicaid expansion swamp the revenue loss
Since Republicans aren't physically printing out hard copies of the ACA repeal legislation, binding it, and asking twenty million people to bend over while they attempt to center the budget printout squarely on their constituents' upper spines:
I guess we can't say that the GOP is literally balancing the budget on the backs of the poor.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Since Republicans aren't physically printing out hard copies of the ACA repeal legislation, binding it, and asking twenty million people to bend over while they attempt to center the budget printout squarely on their constituents' upper spines:
I guess we can't say that the GOP is literally balancing the budget on the backs of the poor.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Guys I just realized something. Trump's wall. It's not to keep Mexican immigrants out, it's to keep us in.
posted by Justinian at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:20 PM on January 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
Thanks, notyou. That's exactly the figleaf I was looking for.
posted by Justinian at 7:21 PM on January 5, 2017
posted by Justinian at 7:21 PM on January 5, 2017
Guys I just realized something. Trump's wall. It's not to keep Mexican immigrants out, it's to keep us in.
Well after he finishes Draining the Swamp, he's just going to have to relocate the now-homeless alligators to the Detroit and Niagara Rivers. We'll see how well they do with ice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:23 PM on January 5, 2017
Well after he finishes Draining the Swamp, he's just going to have to relocate the now-homeless alligators to the Detroit and Niagara Rivers. We'll see how well they do with ice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:23 PM on January 5, 2017
Trump's own Labor Secretary is firing American workers. Isn't he supposed to personally save every American job?
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I swear that donnie's tweet about Toyota today had already been mentioned here but CTRL+F says no?
Toyota loses $1.2bn in value five minutes after Donald Trump’s tweet
Mr Trump responded there was "NO WAY" the move was going to happen.
"Build plant in US or pay big border tax!" he tweeted.
Mr Trump sent the tweet at 1.14pm ET, and within minutes the share price of the $200 billion market capitalisation company plummeted. Shortly before New York stock markets closed on Thursday, the share price had not recovered and were down from pre-tweet by 0.5 per cent.
Reuters: Toyota dropped as much as 3.1 percent to 6,830 yen ($59.06) in early trade before paring losses, after Trump's tweet on Thursday - "Toyota Motor said will build a new plant in Baja, Mexico, to build Corolla cars for U.S. NO WAY! Build plant in U.S. or pay big border tax."
...Trump's tweet confused Toyota's existing Baja plant with the planned $1 billion plant in Guanajuato, where construction got under way in November.
...Other Japanese carmakers also fell in early trade, with a stronger yen dragging on prices too. Honda fell more than 2 percent before paring losses, while Nissan also shed 2 percent, underperforming the broad Topix .TOPX index.
No one person should have this power. This is insane. Can we shut this down by telling him to keep his knees together? Terrible 'joke' aside, is there any way to stop this? I know the answer is 'no' but this is just so so wrong.
posted by futz at 7:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
Toyota loses $1.2bn in value five minutes after Donald Trump’s tweet
Mr Trump responded there was "NO WAY" the move was going to happen.
"Build plant in US or pay big border tax!" he tweeted.
Mr Trump sent the tweet at 1.14pm ET, and within minutes the share price of the $200 billion market capitalisation company plummeted. Shortly before New York stock markets closed on Thursday, the share price had not recovered and were down from pre-tweet by 0.5 per cent.
Reuters: Toyota dropped as much as 3.1 percent to 6,830 yen ($59.06) in early trade before paring losses, after Trump's tweet on Thursday - "Toyota Motor said will build a new plant in Baja, Mexico, to build Corolla cars for U.S. NO WAY! Build plant in U.S. or pay big border tax."
...Trump's tweet confused Toyota's existing Baja plant with the planned $1 billion plant in Guanajuato, where construction got under way in November.
...Other Japanese carmakers also fell in early trade, with a stronger yen dragging on prices too. Honda fell more than 2 percent before paring losses, while Nissan also shed 2 percent, underperforming the broad Topix .TOPX index.
No one person should have this power. This is insane. Can we shut this down by telling him to keep his knees together? Terrible 'joke' aside, is there any way to stop this? I know the answer is 'no' but this is just so so wrong.
posted by futz at 7:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
I think I made an Al Capone joke regarding Donald, a million thread back.
Donald wanking off on twitter manipulating the stock markets might just be what could possibly perhaps lead to criminal charges of securities fraud?
Who had shorted Toyota recently?
posted by porpoise at 7:58 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Donald wanking off on twitter manipulating the stock markets might just be what could possibly perhaps lead to criminal charges of securities fraud?
Who had shorted Toyota recently?
posted by porpoise at 7:58 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Donald wanking off on twitter manipulating the stock markets might just be what could possibly perhaps lead to criminal charges of securities fraud?
I'm going to try to say this with a straight face: we then either need to flip the House in 2018 or convince enough Rs that they have more to gain with impeaching this shitbag than from him continuing in office. Neither seem all that likely. Dammit.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:51 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm going to try to say this with a straight face: we then either need to flip the House in 2018 or convince enough Rs that they have more to gain with impeaching this shitbag than from him continuing in office. Neither seem all that likely. Dammit.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:51 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
even against high odds, what would be the minimum path to success for flipping the house at midterms?
posted by j_curiouser at 9:02 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by j_curiouser at 9:02 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
One place to start looking at a 2018 map, 270 to win has a list of competitive house races from 2016. Democrats will need a net +24 to gain control, there are 37 R seats on that list.
posted by persona at 9:13 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by persona at 9:13 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
even against high odds, what would be the minimum path to success for flipping the house at midterms?
It could happen, depending on a) just how much they fuck everything up and b) whether the Democrats can capitalize (hahahahahhahhhhhhhhhhahaa, I know, I can't say that with a straight face either). Dems only need 31 seats. A good start would be actually fielding candidates in every district. Like districts that Hilary won where a Republican ran fucking unopposed.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:14 PM on January 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
It could happen, depending on a) just how much they fuck everything up and b) whether the Democrats can capitalize (hahahahahhahhhhhhhhhhahaa, I know, I can't say that with a straight face either). Dems only need 31 seats. A good start would be actually fielding candidates in every district. Like districts that Hilary won where a Republican ran fucking unopposed.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:14 PM on January 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
The only way we could flip the House is if things get so terrible so fast there is a 10 point swing. So on the one hand I hope we take the House. On the other hand I don't want a nuke to go off or anything.
posted by Justinian at 9:16 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 9:16 PM on January 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
well, an immigrant can't be President, but a native born minority can. Like, I see the kerfluffle upthread about this, but I don't get why it's bullshit that immigrants can't be President.
First, I didn't expect this was going to be such a controversial opinion. And second, I know there's much more important issues, which is kind of why I'm only posting about like 12 months after the first election2016 posts began. And I'm not saying let's drop everything and get this on the 28th amendment ASAP, but since this was asked directly I will answer.
It's a bullshit rule because the original reason it was even in the Constitution is obsolete and there's no other reason why the requirement is there, except because it's a tradition and not a big priority to change. Kind of like why the penny is still in circulation. It was originally put there because the Framers were concerned with the possibility of someone with foreign dynastic connections becoming president, and not exactly because some commoner from a foreign country would move here and suddenly become president. And even interpreted in that more modern way, I think Donald Trump proves that native-born Americans are just as susceptible to favoring certain foreign interests as an immigrant could potentially be.
posted by FJT at 9:21 PM on January 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
First, I didn't expect this was going to be such a controversial opinion. And second, I know there's much more important issues, which is kind of why I'm only posting about like 12 months after the first election2016 posts began. And I'm not saying let's drop everything and get this on the 28th amendment ASAP, but since this was asked directly I will answer.
It's a bullshit rule because the original reason it was even in the Constitution is obsolete and there's no other reason why the requirement is there, except because it's a tradition and not a big priority to change. Kind of like why the penny is still in circulation. It was originally put there because the Framers were concerned with the possibility of someone with foreign dynastic connections becoming president, and not exactly because some commoner from a foreign country would move here and suddenly become president. And even interpreted in that more modern way, I think Donald Trump proves that native-born Americans are just as susceptible to favoring certain foreign interests as an immigrant could potentially be.
posted by FJT at 9:21 PM on January 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
There are SO MANY things in the U.S. Constitution that fit culturally to the end of the 18th century but make no sense today... I supported throwing the whole thing out when I was in college in the '70s and there still existed some competent non-corrupt people in politics.. now, it is apparently way too late.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:28 PM on January 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
I still find the idea of Donald as a pseudo-populist and as unassailable as he appears to have become bizarre beyond belief.
The way he's been referred to and represented culturally ever since he became a celebrity has never been flattering - he and his stand-ins are universally portrayed as cruel, stupid, petty bullies (i.e, Biff Tannen, Bloom County). He was famous for little more than his ego, his obnoxiousness, and his money. Even other billionaires didn't seem to like or respect him all that much. Almost no one who's worked with him personally has much of a kind word to say. Even his own ghostwriter - a man hired to spin his actions in a positive light - thinks he's a dangerous nutcase. Before the past couple years, I never heard anyone anywhere say anything nice about Trump.
And yet this man, a man with few real friends, a vile personality, and next-to-no redeeming qualities, commands the unthinking loyalty of a little less than half the country. Outsider candidates before him who had sincere intentions didn't command anywhere near that kind of following.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:31 PM on January 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
The way he's been referred to and represented culturally ever since he became a celebrity has never been flattering - he and his stand-ins are universally portrayed as cruel, stupid, petty bullies (i.e, Biff Tannen, Bloom County). He was famous for little more than his ego, his obnoxiousness, and his money. Even other billionaires didn't seem to like or respect him all that much. Almost no one who's worked with him personally has much of a kind word to say. Even his own ghostwriter - a man hired to spin his actions in a positive light - thinks he's a dangerous nutcase. Before the past couple years, I never heard anyone anywhere say anything nice about Trump.
And yet this man, a man with few real friends, a vile personality, and next-to-no redeeming qualities, commands the unthinking loyalty of a little less than half the country. Outsider candidates before him who had sincere intentions didn't command anywhere near that kind of following.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 9:31 PM on January 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
Gotta love it when the national security columnist at the Observer, owned by Ivanka's husband Jared Kushner posts this.
@20committee:
Old #NSA friend tells me that the term used by Kremlin higher-ups to describe Trump is severely unflattering, much worse than "our bitch".
posted by chris24 at 9:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
@20committee:
Old #NSA friend tells me that the term used by Kremlin higher-ups to describe Trump is severely unflattering, much worse than "our bitch".
posted by chris24 at 9:32 PM on January 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
It was originally put there because the Framers were concerned with the possibility of someone with foreign dynastic connections becoming president
See also: the electoral college and Federalist 62. Fat lot of good that did.
On the House: assuming a) 2018 is a year that will be recorded by more than cockroaches; b) there are any elections in 2018; c) there are free and fair (by American standards) elections in 2018, all the projections rely upon typical midterm turnout in typical circumstances. That is unlikely to happen, but I'd suggest that the Dems start campaigning against any vaguely vulnerable GOPer right fucking now, ideally to get them to resign before their term is up. Assume everything is scandal.
Leaving multiple countries without ambassadors for months seems a bit short-sighted, especially considering how far behind schedule the are in other appointments.
To be fair, this is on Obama. He had ample opportunity to end the practice of political appointments, but felt like it was the done thing to assign donors and political allies to pleasant ambassadorial postings in the knowledge that the senior career staff would do the meaty work, and the ambassadors would host the parties. That's why it's going to be Ambassador Scott Baio and Doctor Ambassador Doctor Spaceman.
posted by holgate at 9:35 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
See also: the electoral college and Federalist 62. Fat lot of good that did.
On the House: assuming a) 2018 is a year that will be recorded by more than cockroaches; b) there are any elections in 2018; c) there are free and fair (by American standards) elections in 2018, all the projections rely upon typical midterm turnout in typical circumstances. That is unlikely to happen, but I'd suggest that the Dems start campaigning against any vaguely vulnerable GOPer right fucking now, ideally to get them to resign before their term is up. Assume everything is scandal.
Leaving multiple countries without ambassadors for months seems a bit short-sighted, especially considering how far behind schedule the are in other appointments.
To be fair, this is on Obama. He had ample opportunity to end the practice of political appointments, but felt like it was the done thing to assign donors and political allies to pleasant ambassadorial postings in the knowledge that the senior career staff would do the meaty work, and the ambassadors would host the parties. That's why it's going to be Ambassador Scott Baio and Doctor Ambassador Doctor Spaceman.
posted by holgate at 9:35 PM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Outsider candidates before him who had sincere intentions didn't command anywhere near that kind of following.
He normalized the id of the American populace and let it bloom. (or did donnie confuse id with id/identification?)
The really shitty thing is that the party that he hijacked is supporting his shit in order to - as a foreigner this is crazy, as a British Columbian this is old hat - sell public interest to private entities (ie., politicians to their friends) for pennies on the dollar.
Kleptocracy - what happened during CCCP/Russia divorce.
Putin likely gave Donny a set of cheat codes (faulty because the bros that wrote them were dumb) and Donny thinks he's a master politician.
posted by porpoise at 9:45 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
He normalized the id of the American populace and let it bloom. (or did donnie confuse id with id/identification?)
The really shitty thing is that the party that he hijacked is supporting his shit in order to - as a foreigner this is crazy, as a British Columbian this is old hat - sell public interest to private entities (ie., politicians to their friends) for pennies on the dollar.
Kleptocracy - what happened during CCCP/Russia divorce.
Putin likely gave Donny a set of cheat codes (faulty because the bros that wrote them were dumb) and Donny thinks he's a master politician.
posted by porpoise at 9:45 PM on January 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
And yet this man, a man with few real friends, a vile personality, and next-to-no redeeming qualities, commands the unthinking loyalty of a little less than half the country. Outsider candidates before him who had sincere intentions didn't command anywhere near that kind of following.
Careful not to overestimate his support. A little less than half of the people who voted voted for him, but that doesn't equal the command of unthinking loyalty. He's the most unpopular president-elect since polling became remotely reliable. His actual percentage of unthinkingly loyal followers, the personality cult membership, is (IMO) probably something like 15-20% of the total population and half or less of his voters. There's a sizable core of true-blue followers but that doesn't mean voting for him makes you his lifelong devotee.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
Careful not to overestimate his support. A little less than half of the people who voted voted for him, but that doesn't equal the command of unthinking loyalty. He's the most unpopular president-elect since polling became remotely reliable. His actual percentage of unthinkingly loyal followers, the personality cult membership, is (IMO) probably something like 15-20% of the total population and half or less of his voters. There's a sizable core of true-blue followers but that doesn't mean voting for him makes you his lifelong devotee.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:46 PM on January 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
The only way we could flip the House is if things get so terrible so fast there is a 10 point swing.
I think a whole lot of people didn't want Trump but still didn't vote in 2016 because they thought he had no chance, and once those people see how much power he really wields with both houses of Congress in near lockstep they are going to be about as open to a midterm GOTV message as it's ever possible for such lukewarm voters to be. Look at at how badly the polling and prognostications went wrong in the Presidential election; these are not normal times and we should not abandon hope for a shift based on the normal indicators.
I'm not sure there needs be a literal war or a depression for people to recognize what a goon this guy is and to rise up in overwhelming numbers to limit his power, if they can credibly be made to believe they have the option. Every Republican congressperson who backs Trump should have a Democratic challenger attacking them relentlessly for that support, AND they should be primaried by a decent Republican running on an "impeach Trump" platform. He has been and remains extremely unpopular, and the huge block of people who don't usually vote in midterms just might see their way to showing up.
posted by contraption at 9:47 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
I think a whole lot of people didn't want Trump but still didn't vote in 2016 because they thought he had no chance, and once those people see how much power he really wields with both houses of Congress in near lockstep they are going to be about as open to a midterm GOTV message as it's ever possible for such lukewarm voters to be. Look at at how badly the polling and prognostications went wrong in the Presidential election; these are not normal times and we should not abandon hope for a shift based on the normal indicators.
I'm not sure there needs be a literal war or a depression for people to recognize what a goon this guy is and to rise up in overwhelming numbers to limit his power, if they can credibly be made to believe they have the option. Every Republican congressperson who backs Trump should have a Democratic challenger attacking them relentlessly for that support, AND they should be primaried by a decent Republican running on an "impeach Trump" platform. He has been and remains extremely unpopular, and the huge block of people who don't usually vote in midterms just might see their way to showing up.
posted by contraption at 9:47 PM on January 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Alexandra Petri, WaPo: The Most Interesting Intelligence Briefing in the World
They have been in this conference room for nearly 48 hours, and it is starting to smell like an intoxicating combination of dry-erase marker, sweat and that stuff that collects on your mousepad despite your best efforts.
“We have one day left,” a Senior Intelligence Official says.
“Hell,” says A Slightly Less Senior Intelligence Official. He takes another sip from a large flask of what he has been assuring the room is coffee, then casts a despondent eye on the whiteboard, which reads: “IDEAS TO MAKE THE INTEL BRIEFING HOLD TRUMP’S INTEREST: THINGS WE KNOW HE LIKES” in large block capitals.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:24 PM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
They have been in this conference room for nearly 48 hours, and it is starting to smell like an intoxicating combination of dry-erase marker, sweat and that stuff that collects on your mousepad despite your best efforts.
“We have one day left,” a Senior Intelligence Official says.
“Hell,” says A Slightly Less Senior Intelligence Official. He takes another sip from a large flask of what he has been assuring the room is coffee, then casts a despondent eye on the whiteboard, which reads: “IDEAS TO MAKE THE INTEL BRIEFING HOLD TRUMP’S INTEREST: THINGS WE KNOW HE LIKES” in large block capitals.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:24 PM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
“Hell,” says A Slightly Less Senior Intelligence Official. He takes another sip from a large flask of what he has been assuring the room is coffee, then casts a despondent eye on the whiteboard, which reads: “IDEAS TO MAKE THE INTEL BRIEFING HOLD TRUMP’S INTEREST: THINGS WE KNOW HE LIKES” in large block capitals.
This is easy.
Have the briefings be given by beauty pagent styled women in bathing suits.
posted by Jalliah at 10:44 PM on January 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Or by Putin himself.
posted by mochapickle at 11:26 PM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 11:26 PM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
We could really use a new thread about now. Getting pretty hard on the old computer phone.
posted by cman at 11:31 PM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by cman at 11:31 PM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
He doesn't listen to what women say. The briefings need to be delivered by Trump impersonators.
True.
Maybe they can just CGI it and get Trump to give himself the briefings.
posted by Jalliah at 11:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
True.
Maybe they can just CGI it and get Trump to give himself the briefings.
posted by Jalliah at 11:36 PM on January 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
I'm aghast. Is this the right place to say I'm aghast?
posted by mazola at 11:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by mazola at 11:37 PM on January 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
METAFILTER: the right place to say I'm aghast
posted by philip-random at 12:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 12:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
It's also the right place to say avast. To ye scurvy dogs. Prepare to be boarded. Yar.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:21 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:21 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Haaaaa Trump said that Mexico would repay the U.S. for funds for the border wall.
And, mercifully, for a shiny moment things got funny again. Which is good, because yesterday I was having this like VR daydream where I punched Ryan in the face, and I don't think violent daydreams are necessarily healthy
posted by angrycat at 3:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
And, mercifully, for a shiny moment things got funny again. Which is good, because yesterday I was having this like VR daydream where I punched Ryan in the face, and I don't think violent daydreams are necessarily healthy
posted by angrycat at 3:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
yesterday I was having this like VR daydream where I punched Ryan in the face, and I don't think violent daydreams are necessarily healthy
Pssh. Punching fascists and quislings in their faces is a time-honored tradition.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Pssh. Punching fascists and quislings in their faces is a time-honored tradition.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
a river of fuck motherfucker fuckity fuckhole fucksack ass piss
ah, i think i just found the text for my daily tweet to donny.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
ah, i think i just found the text for my daily tweet to donny.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
@RealDonald Trump: The Democratic National Committee would not allow the FBI to study or see its computer info after it was supposedly hacked by Russia, so how and why are they so sure about hacking if they never even requested an examination of the computer servers? What is going on?
This was last night. He has to stop digging at some point, right?
posted by diogenes at 5:46 AM on January 6, 2017
This was last night. He has to stop digging at some point, right?
posted by diogenes at 5:46 AM on January 6, 2017
CNN is saying the feds know who gave Assange the DNC emails.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
And then he turns his attention to more important matters this morning: Wow, the ratings are in and Arnold Schwarzenegger got "swamped" (or destroyed) by comparison to the ratings machine, DJT.
Can it be any more obvious that this man is not well?
posted by diogenes at 5:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Can it be any more obvious that this man is not well?
posted by diogenes at 5:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
INVOKE THE 25TH I JUST CAN'T GAAAAAAAAAAAAAH SOMEBODY DO IT
posted by angrycat at 5:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 5:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Does the PEOTUS usually take this many off the record meetings with media outlets?
posted by pxe2000 at 6:04 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by pxe2000 at 6:04 AM on January 6, 2017
Trump's security briefing is apparently at 12:30pm, so let's see what nonsense he leaks after that.
Also, as EP of Celeb Apprentice, he probably shouldn't be saying terrible things about it?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, as EP of Celeb Apprentice, he probably shouldn't be saying terrible things about it?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Nib's Scott Bateman has made an organization chart for America's New Intelligence Community
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, as EP of Celeb Apprentice, he probably shouldn't be saying terrible things about it?
He shouldn't, but he's literally incapable of stopping himself from lashing out at perceived threats to his ego. But sure, let's make him commander in chief of the world's largest military.
posted by diogenes at 6:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
He shouldn't, but he's literally incapable of stopping himself from lashing out at perceived threats to his ego. But sure, let's make him commander in chief of the world's largest military.
posted by diogenes at 6:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
@realdonaldtrump Anna Wintour came to my office at Trump Tower to ask me to meet with the editors of Conde Nast & Steven Newhouse, a friend. Will go this AM.
Um, who gives a crap? Do something else.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:20 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Um, who gives a crap? Do something else.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:20 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Could you imagine if Trump was doing this as a Democrat?
posted by Talez at 6:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Talez at 6:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
"this" meaning "daily insane tweets", "attacking American companies as the PEOTUS" or "denying foreign assistance in his election"?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
Wow, the ratings are in and Arnold Schwarzenegger got "swamped" (or destroyed) by comparison to the ratings machine, DJT. So much for....being a movie star-and that was season 1 compared to season 14. Now compare him to my season 1. But who cares, he supported Kasich & Hillary
...OK, now this morning's storm is starting to approach "check out sex tape" levels of unhingedness. Anyone understand what the fuck he's going on about?
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:36 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Wow, the ratings are in and Arnold Schwarzenegger got "swamped" (or destroyed) by comparison to the ratings machine, DJT. So much for....being a movie star-and that was season 1 compared to season 14. Now compare him to my season 1. But who cares, he supported Kasich & Hillary
...OK, now this morning's storm is starting to approach "check out sex tape" levels of unhingedness. Anyone understand what the fuck he's going on about?
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:36 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
The fact-checking tools David Fahrenthold used on Trump’s charity claims.
Basically it's widely available online resources, a phone, an email account, and a proper paper notebook.
posted by notyou at 6:40 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Basically it's widely available online resources, a phone, an email account, and a proper paper notebook.
posted by notyou at 6:40 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
...OK, now this morning's storm is starting to approach "check out sex tape" levels of unhingedness. Anyone understand what the fuck he's going on about?
Celebrity Apprentice came in third in ratings for its time slot. Donny's ego isn't happy about it, so he's blaming Arnold. Of course, when he says it's year 1 for Arnold, that may be true, but it's season 15 for the show. And maybe, just maybe Trump's racism/fascism/sexism had something to do with the show's low ratings.
posted by chris24 at 6:44 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Celebrity Apprentice came in third in ratings for its time slot. Donny's ego isn't happy about it, so he's blaming Arnold. Of course, when he says it's year 1 for Arnold, that may be true, but it's season 15 for the show. And maybe, just maybe Trump's racism/fascism/sexism had something to do with the show's low ratings.
posted by chris24 at 6:44 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Speaking of online resources, is someone storifying or consolidating Trump's tweets, and just his, in a convenient to read and archive place? Twitter itself has them, but maybe not forever, and it gets cluttered with all the replies and retweets.
posted by notyou at 6:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by notyou at 6:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
@realDonaldTrump
The dishonest media does not report that any money spent on building the Great Wall (for sake of speed), will be paid back by Mexico later!
Something about the transition from "we're gonna build a wall" to "the Great Wall," complete with definite article and capitalization, really gives me them incipient-fascism-jeebies.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [24 favorites]
The dishonest media does not report that any money spent on building the Great Wall (for sake of speed), will be paid back by Mexico later!
Something about the transition from "we're gonna build a wall" to "the Great Wall," complete with definite article and capitalization, really gives me them incipient-fascism-jeebies.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [24 favorites]
Mattis clashing with Trump transition team over Pentagon staffing: Behind the scenes, Mattis has been rejecting large numbers of candidates offered by the transition team for several top posts, two sources close to the transition said. The dispute over personnel appointments is contributing to a tenser relationship between Mattis and the transition officials, which could set the stage for turf wars between the Pentagon and the White House in the coming Trump administration.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:55 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:55 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
> Speaking of online resources, is someone storifying or consolidating Trump's tweets, and just his, in a convenient to read and archive place? Twitter itself has them, but maybe not forever, and it gets cluttered with all the replies and retweets.
I've wondered this, too. It's pretty frustrating trying to get them out of Twitter's interface; there should be a simple text document somewhere. A quick Google pulled up this: www.trumptwitterarchive.com, which seems to go back to 2009, and is even categorised.
posted by Quagkapi at 6:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
I've wondered this, too. It's pretty frustrating trying to get them out of Twitter's interface; there should be a simple text document somewhere. A quick Google pulled up this: www.trumptwitterarchive.com, which seems to go back to 2009, and is even categorised.
posted by Quagkapi at 6:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Irony Watch: Wikileaks is now complaining about "illegal" leaking.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [18 favorites]
CNN is saying the feds know who gave Assange the DNC emails.
Carter Page? Rex Tillerson? Paul Manafort? Michael Flynn?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:58 AM on January 6, 2017
Carter Page? Rex Tillerson? Paul Manafort? Michael Flynn?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:58 AM on January 6, 2017
That's fantastic, Quagkapi, thanks for sharing!
posted by notyou at 7:05 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by notyou at 7:05 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
... and there's even a .CSV (direct link) linked from the About page with the raw data in which almost every line ends with a little fact-check!(/snark)
6495,Twitter for Android,"The DJT Foundation, unlike most foundations, never paid fees, rent, salaries or any expenses. 100% of money goes to wonderful charities!",,False,Tue Dec 27 03:06:59 +0000 2016,1755,813581917215977473posted by Quagkapi at 7:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Considering Trump's obsession with ratings, we should all refuse to watch his State of the Union. Torrent it if you need to see it, or read a transcript, but don't watch it as it airs.
posted by drezdn at 7:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 7:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
And maybe, just maybe Trump's racism/fascism/sexism had something to do with the show's low ratings.
I couldn't even bring myself to watch the UK Apprentice a few months back because of Trumpian associations taking the shine off the entire enterprise, and that has a prominent New Labour figure at the helm (who resigned from the Labour party last year because he disagreed with the direction they were headed, but still, he's hardly a Trump clone). It used to be entertaining to watch people jump through hoops to impress the big boss. Now it feels like we're all being forced to jump with them.
posted by rory at 7:10 AM on January 6, 2017
I couldn't even bring myself to watch the UK Apprentice a few months back because of Trumpian associations taking the shine off the entire enterprise, and that has a prominent New Labour figure at the helm (who resigned from the Labour party last year because he disagreed with the direction they were headed, but still, he's hardly a Trump clone). It used to be entertaining to watch people jump through hoops to impress the big boss. Now it feels like we're all being forced to jump with them.
posted by rory at 7:10 AM on January 6, 2017
CNN is saying the feds know who gave Assange the DNC emails.
Carter Page? Rex Tillerson? Paul Manafort? Michael Flynn?
Meredith!
posted by jason_steakums at 7:12 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Carter Page? Rex Tillerson? Paul Manafort? Michael Flynn?
Meredith!
posted by jason_steakums at 7:12 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Considering Trump's obsession with ratings, we should all refuse to watch his State of the Union.
Too easy:
@realDonaldTrump: Lying media says ratings for my widely praised State of the Union address were low. Count people who torrented or read transcripts, and it's most watched television event in history. Sad! [fake, for now]
posted by Rykey at 7:22 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Too easy:
@realDonaldTrump: Lying media says ratings for my widely praised State of the Union address were low. Count people who torrented or read transcripts, and it's most watched television event in history. Sad! [fake, for now]
posted by Rykey at 7:22 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
OK, now this morning's storm is starting to approach "check out sex tape" levels of unhingedness. Anyone understand what the fuck he's going on about?
posted by octobersurprise at 7:26 AM on January 6, 2017 [18 favorites]
If you've always dreamed of a President who trolls his replacement on a reality TV show, enjoy your day.I think there's two things going on here and it's probably pointless to speculate on the degree to which Donny knows what he's doing. One, it's a narcissistic cry of rage; two, it's also an effort at misdirecting attention away from more important news stories: the Russian investigation, the Woolsey resignation (when was the last time a potential Presidential appointee resigned before the President-elect was inaugurated?), his admission that the US must pay for his wall, trouble with Sessions, trouble with Mattis, etc.
— Greg Pinelo @gregpinelo
posted by octobersurprise at 7:26 AM on January 6, 2017 [18 favorites]
By now we should know that if he's tweeting, the truly bad shit is going down somewhere else. I'm assuming this is just chum for the press to distract them while Ryan and the entire GOP caucus cheerfully demolishes the Fifth Amendment, the federal workforce, public lands, etc.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
Could you imagine if Trump was doing this as a Democrat?
posted by Talez at 6:27 AM on January 6 [+] [!]
I still can't believe he's doing this as PEOTUS
posted by From Bklyn at 7:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Talez at 6:27 AM on January 6 [+] [!]
I still can't believe he's doing this as PEOTUS
posted by From Bklyn at 7:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Just this morning I was thinking of a phrase for a maxim along the lines of "the degree of Trump's insanity on Twitter is directly proportional to the awfulness of something going on just behind the scenes." Surely that's what's going on here.
posted by Tevin at 7:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Tevin at 7:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Cheapest Cocktail at the Trump Hotel Is Now $24
The grift never ends, he's nickle and diming diplomats after pressuring them to stay at his hotel.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2017
The grift never ends, he's nickle and diming diplomats after pressuring them to stay at his hotel.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2017
@AdamSerwer: Listeners of NPR heard this morning that Sessions was "part of a push to desegregate Alabama Schools" (he was not)
posted by zombieflanders at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
I think there's two things going on here and it's probably pointless to speculate on the degree to which Donny knows what he's doing. One, it's a narcissistic cry of rage; two, it's also an effort at misdirecting attention away from more important news stories.
Maybe, but I'm becoming less and less convinced that there's ever anything intentionally beyond item one.
posted by diogenes at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe, but I'm becoming less and less convinced that there's ever anything intentionally beyond item one.
posted by diogenes at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
ah, i think i just found the text for my daily tweet to donny.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
@AdamSerwer: Listeners of NPR heard this morning that Sessions was "part of a push to desegregate Alabama Schools" (he was not)
Er, in the sense that he was opposed to the push?
The same way Jefferson Davis was part of the push to end slavery in the United States
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:37 AM on January 6, 2017 [24 favorites]
Er, in the sense that he was opposed to the push?
The same way Jefferson Davis was part of the push to end slavery in the United States
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:37 AM on January 6, 2017 [24 favorites]
How about this theory? Whenever something which looks bad for the party, the family, or Russia is happening behind the scenes, someone from Trump's inner circle starts goading him. "I dunno. I think Schwarzenegger might be a more popular TV character than you... People are saying..."
Presto, one tweet-storm smoke-screen.
I'm not sure who the primary goader would be, though. Maybe a bunch of different people have figured out this trick.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:37 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Presto, one tweet-storm smoke-screen.
I'm not sure who the primary goader would be, though. Maybe a bunch of different people have figured out this trick.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:37 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Evil, malicious people doing greedy, selfish things for childish, ignorant reasons.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Republican party I mean.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Please use his full name: Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III.
Lest his exact heritage be forgotten.
posted by Tevin at 7:40 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Lest his exact heritage be forgotten.
posted by Tevin at 7:40 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Jeet Heer's remark captures the rotten tang of the zeitgeist, tho:
"Then Arnold Schwarzenegger gets into a twitter flame war with President Elect Donald Trump" If you said that in 1986, they'd lock you up.posted by octobersurprise at 7:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [24 favorites]
"Metafilter: the rotten tang of the zeitgeist."
For real though, I am heartened that the press are FINALLY coming around to the idea that "hey Trump's tweeting isn't news anymore and maybe we're not going to let him push us around with 140 characters."
I'm not sure if it will bear much fruit, but it seems like there has recently been an awakening in that small regard.
posted by Tevin at 7:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
For real though, I am heartened that the press are FINALLY coming around to the idea that "hey Trump's tweeting isn't news anymore and maybe we're not going to let him push us around with 140 characters."
I'm not sure if it will bear much fruit, but it seems like there has recently been an awakening in that small regard.
posted by Tevin at 7:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Tempting as the "tweet insanity level correlates with degree that we're being disemboweled behind the scenes" theory is, it's just goddamned hard to wrap my head around the idea of him having that sort of knowing agency. Even if it's in the form of his handlers giving him the phone and whispering trump nothings in his ear: he's too impulsive and capricious to be directed this precisely. If there's truth in the theory, it has to be either unconscious on his part or it has limited power on the part of his entourage.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've been thinking this awhile, and would appreciate feedback.
Please list some jobs in the U.S. with a MANDATORY requirement for any of these:
Physical exam; mental health exam; drug testing; financial background check; sex crimes offender check; general background check.
At first I just wanted to make this a talking point. But now I'm wondering - how would legislation be enacted requiring all major party candidates submit to this well in advance of an election, and anyone not passing minimum standards be ineligible for office? Or to require the president (and other high elected officials) continue to meet these requirements in office?
I've lived through Nixon, Raygun, and Dumbya, but have never been as fearful for not only my own well-being but the entire planet's because of the absolute tyrannical lunatic that 60 million people voted for. Because of him it's astonishing to think we have NO rules re: meeting such minimum requirements as you need to drive a truck or teach.
(Come to think of this, considering those 10s of millions of t-Rump voters, maybe we need some type of psych exam as a voter requirement.)
posted by NorthernLite at 7:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Please list some jobs in the U.S. with a MANDATORY requirement for any of these:
Physical exam; mental health exam; drug testing; financial background check; sex crimes offender check; general background check.
At first I just wanted to make this a talking point. But now I'm wondering - how would legislation be enacted requiring all major party candidates submit to this well in advance of an election, and anyone not passing minimum standards be ineligible for office? Or to require the president (and other high elected officials) continue to meet these requirements in office?
I've lived through Nixon, Raygun, and Dumbya, but have never been as fearful for not only my own well-being but the entire planet's because of the absolute tyrannical lunatic that 60 million people voted for. Because of him it's astonishing to think we have NO rules re: meeting such minimum requirements as you need to drive a truck or teach.
(Come to think of this, considering those 10s of millions of t-Rump voters, maybe we need some type of psych exam as a voter requirement.)
posted by NorthernLite at 7:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
anyone not passing minimum standards be ineligible for office?
Congratulations, you have just re-invented the poll tax, the grandfather clause, and Jim Crow generally.
posted by Etrigan at 7:57 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Congratulations, you have just re-invented the poll tax, the grandfather clause, and Jim Crow generally.
posted by Etrigan at 7:57 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
(Come to think of this, considering those 10s of millions of t-Rump voters, maybe we need some type of psych exam as a voter requirement.)
This would be abused to keep women, some minorities, some disabled, and non English speakers from voting.
posted by zutalors! at 7:57 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
This would be abused to keep women, some minorities, some disabled, and non English speakers from voting.
posted by zutalors! at 7:57 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
On the youtube, the nerdwriter1 has a theory I call the 14 year old girl theory, that Trump uses twitter as exercise in performative identity creation. Just like the rest of us are posting pictures of our healthy lunch to makes us look like healthy people, or our vacation photos show that we are having enviable amounts of fun at the beach. He's not giving us information or policy, but showing us how smart, how tough, and how successful he is despite the haters and losers. He congratulates himself and tears down his opponents, he uses twitter like a mean girl from junior high school.
Sure, they show that he is temperamentally unfit to his position of authority, but I don't know if it's worth looking for any deeper meaning or strategy. He has used the media his whole life to promote an image of himself as he wants us to see him, how is his twitter account any different?
posted by peeedro at 8:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Sure, they show that he is temperamentally unfit to his position of authority, but I don't know if it's worth looking for any deeper meaning or strategy. He has used the media his whole life to promote an image of himself as he wants us to see him, how is his twitter account any different?
posted by peeedro at 8:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
(Come to think of this, considering those 10s of millions of t-Rump voters, maybe we need some type of psych exam as a voter requirement.)
This is the last thing most vulnerable populations need.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is the last thing most vulnerable populations need.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Soviets used 'psychiatry' to lock up dissidents. Let's not go down that road. You give everyone franchise, and you assume the responsibility for looking after everyone so that they - we - can exercise that responsibility to the best of their - our - ability.
That's the way to do it, and you accept that you won't succeed in every case.
posted by Devonian at 8:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
That's the way to do it, and you accept that you won't succeed in every case.
posted by Devonian at 8:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
I don't think that he's masterfully using Twitter as a smokescreen so much as I think that it almost always coincides with something else going on behind the scenes. That is to say that PR flacks are watching his Twitter for a rant to make their announcements.
posted by Tevin at 8:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Tevin at 8:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Classy AF:
@Schwarzenegger Arnold Retweeted Donald J. Trump
There's nothing more important than the people's work, @realDonaldTrump. I wish you the best of luck and I hope you'll work for ALL of the American people as aggressively as you worked for your ratings. Please study this quote from Lincoln's inaugural, @realDonaldTrump. It inspired me every day I was Governor, and I hope it inspires you
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [51 favorites]
@Schwarzenegger Arnold Retweeted Donald J. Trump
There's nothing more important than the people's work, @realDonaldTrump. I wish you the best of luck and I hope you'll work for ALL of the American people as aggressively as you worked for your ratings. Please study this quote from Lincoln's inaugural, @realDonaldTrump. It inspired me every day I was Governor, and I hope it inspires you
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [51 favorites]
A Farewell Address From President Obama's Anger Translator
posted by kirkaracha at 8:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
But now I'm wondering - how would legislation be enacted requiring all major party candidates submit to this well in advance of an election, and anyone not passing minimum standards be ineligible for office?
It would be enacted the normal way, but it would almost certainly be ruled unconstitutional. The courts have insisted that for offices where the qualifications are spelled out in the Constitution, you can't add new de jure or de facto qualifications except by constitutional amendment. The state level bills requiring candidates to submit tax returns are probably also DOA for this reason, unless their solicitors-general can come up with reasons why that's a valid electoral regulation and not a backdoor qualification for office.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:08 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
It would be enacted the normal way, but it would almost certainly be ruled unconstitutional. The courts have insisted that for offices where the qualifications are spelled out in the Constitution, you can't add new de jure or de facto qualifications except by constitutional amendment. The state level bills requiring candidates to submit tax returns are probably also DOA for this reason, unless their solicitors-general can come up with reasons why that's a valid electoral regulation and not a backdoor qualification for office.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:08 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Schwarzenegger is classier than our president by like a factor of 1000. Is it to early to start with the "fuck 2017s?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
We're all in different places, but I'm not going to let Donald's tweeting ruin my year.
Nuclear winter white force my hand, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
posted by Tevin at 8:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nuclear winter white force my hand, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
posted by Tevin at 8:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trump still picks up his cell phone, even when he doesn't know who it is: "By the way, my phone says, No Caller ID, so I'm not saying that it has anything to do with me," Corker said. "Nobody knows who it is that's calling when I'm calling."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:23 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:23 AM on January 6, 2017
OK, I figured it out. It's 1986 and I'm in a coma. I mean c'mon, former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is arguing with president-elect Donald Trump? Can I wake up now?
posted by kirkaracha at 8:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Trump still picks up his cell phone, even when he doesn't know who it is
Quick, somebody give his number to "Nicolas Sarkozy".
posted by peeedro at 8:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Quick, somebody give his number to "Nicolas Sarkozy".
posted by peeedro at 8:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
NPR: The release [of the declassified Russia documents] appears to be a moving target. But this seems a clear move to get out in front of the inevitable leaks/tweets to come tonight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:34 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:34 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
How about this theory? Whenever something which looks bad for the party, the family, or Russia is happening behind the scenes, someone from Trump's inner circle starts goading him. "I dunno. I think Schwarzenegger might be a more popular TV character than you... People are saying..."
Hack the stock market/American Presidency/US foreign & domestic policy/American democracy using this one neat trick!
posted by skye.dancer at 8:35 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hack the stock market/American Presidency/US foreign & domestic policy/American democracy using this one neat trick!
posted by skye.dancer at 8:35 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Congratulations, you have just re-invented the poll tax, the grandfather clause, and Jim Crow generally.
Come on, the minimum standards was whether we should have a right to certain info about a POTUS - tests for illegal drugs, financial, etc. Are we entitled to know if t-Rump is snorting coke? Should he have been forced by law to reveal more financials? And if some night he decides to nuke North Korea with no provocation, how WOULD we "invoke the 25th" re: a mental competency?
ROU_Xenophobe - that was in the ballpark of what I was trying to ask about enacting such laws re: candidates for high office.
posted by NorthernLite at 8:41 AM on January 6, 2017
Can someone here help me wrap my head around this Pat Buchanan op-ed? Is he pro democracy or anti democracy?
To the extent that he's saying the same thing as this post at my favorite news blog, the Weekly Sift, I -gasp- agree with Pat Buchanan.
But while Buchanan starts out saying that "alarm is not misplaced" as though maybe threats to liberal democracy are a bad thing, he ends by saying:
Put that together with this 2009 Peter Thiel essay.
Because as Buchanan says, the Polish government remains popular in Poland, and even Putin is apparently popular in Russia...
Are people voting to disenfranchise themselves? What is the appeal? Is it just pure racism/tribalism, "We don't want to vote if THEY get to vote too?" But that's SO irrational. I mean, SO SO irrational. Like economists would have to tear up all their "rational actor" theories and start over. So self defeating. Cutting off your own nose to spite your face (or to spite another race), that's IT? Surely there must be more to it than that? What is going on in the world right now? Why are all of these anti-democratic assholes winning democratic elections?
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:42 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
To the extent that he's saying the same thing as this post at my favorite news blog, the Weekly Sift, I -gasp- agree with Pat Buchanan.
“As we begin 2017, the most urgent threat to liberal democracy is not autocracy,” writes William Galston of the Wall Street Journal, “it is illiberal democracy.”
Galston’s diagnosis is not wrong, and his alarm is not misplaced.
But while Buchanan starts out saying that "alarm is not misplaced" as though maybe threats to liberal democracy are a bad thing, he ends by saying:
Our Founding Fathers believed that democracy represented the degeneration of a republic; they feared and loathed it, and felt that it was the precursor of dictatorship. They may have been right again.(Emphasis mine) So maybe Buchanan is actually saying that the end of democracy is, in his opinion, no great loss? That democracy "represents the degeneration of the republic"?
Put that together with this 2009 Peter Thiel essay.
I stand against confiscatory taxes, totalitarian collectives, and the ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual. For all these reasons, I still call myself “libertarian.”Are these conservatives as openly anti-democracy as they seem? And are their supporters anti-democracy?
...
Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.
...
Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron.
Because as Buchanan says, the Polish government remains popular in Poland, and even Putin is apparently popular in Russia...
Are people voting to disenfranchise themselves? What is the appeal? Is it just pure racism/tribalism, "We don't want to vote if THEY get to vote too?" But that's SO irrational. I mean, SO SO irrational. Like economists would have to tear up all their "rational actor" theories and start over. So self defeating. Cutting off your own nose to spite your face (or to spite another race), that's IT? Surely there must be more to it than that? What is going on in the world right now? Why are all of these anti-democratic assholes winning democratic elections?
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:42 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Is it just pure racism/tribalism
In Pat's case, yes.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
In Pat's case, yes.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
I am asking the chairs of the House and Senate committees to investigate top secret intelligence shared with NBC prior to me seeing it.
is this bad
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:54 AM on January 6, 2017
I am asking the chairs of the House and Senate committees to investigate top secret intelligence shared with NBC prior to me seeing it.
is this bad
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:54 AM on January 6, 2017
and even Putin is apparently popular in Russia...
It's a lot easier to keep a high approval rating when you can jail anyone who criticizes you.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:55 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's a lot easier to keep a high approval rating when you can jail anyone who criticizes you.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:55 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
But that's SO irrational. I mean, SO SO irrational. Like economists would have to tear up all their "rational actor" theories and start over.
I truly only mean this minorly snarky, but, did you honestly think it was ever not this way? The GOP's base is more or less defined by, "we don't want things that would benefit us if those people benefit too".
I don't think we can ever expect rational actors, in the sense you're thinking. A fairly large percentage of humans seem hard-wired to prefer being number one on top of a shit heap to being only one of many equals in paradise.
posted by tocts at 8:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I truly only mean this minorly snarky, but, did you honestly think it was ever not this way? The GOP's base is more or less defined by, "we don't want things that would benefit us if those people benefit too".
I don't think we can ever expect rational actors, in the sense you're thinking. A fairly large percentage of humans seem hard-wired to prefer being number one on top of a shit heap to being only one of many equals in paradise.
posted by tocts at 8:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Because as Buchanan says, the Polish government remains popular in Poland, and even Putin is apparently popular in Russia...
A lot of that support is out and out bought, courtesy of policies that benefit their supporters.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:56 AM on January 6, 2017
A lot of that support is out and out bought, courtesy of policies that benefit their supporters.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:56 AM on January 6, 2017
@realDonaldTrump
I am asking the chairs of the House and Senate committees to investigate top secret intelligence shared with NBC prior to me seeing it.
Result of investigation: we attempted to share this information with you in early December but you skipped out on the intelligence briefing so whatevs
posted by Existential Dread at 8:59 AM on January 6, 2017 [43 favorites]
I am asking the chairs of the House and Senate committees to investigate top secret intelligence shared with NBC prior to me seeing it.
Result of investigation: we attempted to share this information with you in early December but you skipped out on the intelligence briefing so whatevs
posted by Existential Dread at 8:59 AM on January 6, 2017 [43 favorites]
futz: -- Even so, the messages also revealed that top officials in Russia anticipated that Clinton would win and did not expect their effort to achieve its goal.
Related from NPR, yesterday afternoon: Political Pollsters Reflect On What Went Wrong In 2016 - how pollsters were wrong in England, France and the US.
The summary:
Related from NPR, yesterday afternoon: Political Pollsters Reflect On What Went Wrong In 2016 - how pollsters were wrong in England, France and the US.
The summary:
For every instance of bad polling, you can find unique circumstances that account for some of what happened. But there are also common themes in the U.S., France and Britain. Assumptions about party loyalties and likelihood of voting took a beating this year, and the failures of 2016 have put the very idea of predictive polling on notice for elections this year and next.And elaborating on an early comment in that piece: Major French newspaper drops opinion polls ahead of 2017 elections
The editor of one of France’s most popular newspapers has said he will stop commissioning opinion polls ahead of next year’s presidential election, citing pollsters’ failure to predict Brexit or November’s US election.posted by filthy light thief at 9:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Stéphane Albouy, who heads Le Parisien and its sister title Aujourd’hui en France (which are by and large identical, although Le Parisien provides local Paris news), said he wanted his journalists to focus on “on the ground reporting” instead of relying on surveys.
Congratulations, you have just re-invented the poll tax, the grandfather clause, and Jim Crow generally.
Come on, the minimum standards was whether we should have a right to certain info about a POTUS - tests for illegal drugs, financial, etc. Are we entitled to know if t-Rump is snorting coke?
Or tobacco? Or refined sugar? Or whether he has a genetic predilection to cancer? Or addiction?
As much as I hate slippery-slope arguments, it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any restriction on voting (which a restriction on candidacy effectively is) will be stretched to disenfranchise wide swaths of the American population.
posted by Etrigan at 9:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Come on, the minimum standards was whether we should have a right to certain info about a POTUS - tests for illegal drugs, financial, etc. Are we entitled to know if t-Rump is snorting coke?
Or tobacco? Or refined sugar? Or whether he has a genetic predilection to cancer? Or addiction?
As much as I hate slippery-slope arguments, it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any restriction on voting (which a restriction on candidacy effectively is) will be stretched to disenfranchise wide swaths of the American population.
posted by Etrigan at 9:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
@realDonaldTrump
I am asking the chairs of the House and Senate committees to investigate top secret intelligence shared with NBC prior to me seeing it.
is this bad?
I think it's bad for Trump. It's further evidence that he's at war with the intelligence agencies, and he's flailing.
It's bad for America, but I don't think it's a new level of bad beyond where we've been since November 8th. He was always going to go after them, especially those investigating his ties to Russia.
posted by diogenes at 9:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
I am asking the chairs of the House and Senate committees to investigate top secret intelligence shared with NBC prior to me seeing it.
is this bad?
I think it's bad for Trump. It's further evidence that he's at war with the intelligence agencies, and he's flailing.
It's bad for America, but I don't think it's a new level of bad beyond where we've been since November 8th. He was always going to go after them, especially those investigating his ties to Russia.
posted by diogenes at 9:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
As much as I hate slippery-slope arguments, it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that any restriction on voting (which a restriction on candidacy effectively is) will be stretched to disenfranchise wide swaths of the American population.
And it's easy to envision a future where a candidate for the Dems is essentially blocked due to severe overreaching tests demanded by congressional Repubs. Similar to what may soon happen (highly dependent on whether Schumer is actually a vertebrate) with Trump's Supreme Court nominees...if blocking for a year is acceptable, why not four years? Or eight? If blocking Trump due to suspected cocaine abuse is acceptable, would Obama have made it through, with his admitted history? Or a future candidate on the left who may have (legally) used marijuana?
posted by Existential Dread at 9:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
And it's easy to envision a future where a candidate for the Dems is essentially blocked due to severe overreaching tests demanded by congressional Repubs. Similar to what may soon happen (highly dependent on whether Schumer is actually a vertebrate) with Trump's Supreme Court nominees...if blocking for a year is acceptable, why not four years? Or eight? If blocking Trump due to suspected cocaine abuse is acceptable, would Obama have made it through, with his admitted history? Or a future candidate on the left who may have (legally) used marijuana?
posted by Existential Dread at 9:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are people voting to disenfranchise themselves? What is the appeal? Is it just pure racism/tribalism, "We don't want to vote if THEY get to vote too?" But that's SO irrational. I mean, SO SO irrational. Like economists would have to tear up all their "rational actor" theories and start over. So self defeating. Cutting off your own nose to spite your face (or to spite another race), that's IT? Surely there must be more to it than that?
*raises hand*
Sure there is. In addition to petty tribalism, there's this: conservatives tend to think everything's a zero sum game. I mean, it's right there in their *title* - they think they need to conserve their present resources rather than expand them. They always think things *used* to be better, not that things *will be* better.
They think it is impossible for an out-group to gain an advantage without them *losing* one. For instance, you or I understands that welfare, education and health care are investments: even without speaking from a moral standpoint, we understand these things result in a stronger, more competitive work force on the world stage, improving our economy. We understand taxes are an investment in infrastructure, worth far more than they cost when deployed wisely.
They just see 'money outta my pocket.' They don't believe in growth, they don't believe in progress. It's not in them. They just see a finite pool of resources that must be controlled at any cost.
Frame stuff this way, and everything they're doing makes sense to me. They're keeping a death grip on the things they think are most important, and they perceive their authoritarian leaders to be demanding a smaller piece of the pie than we are. It's like the guy who voted Trump after getting screwed outta $3 mil - price theory tells me that he thought a Hillary Clinton presidency would cost him things he valued more. That's stupid, but it's explicable.
posted by mordax at 9:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
*raises hand*
Sure there is. In addition to petty tribalism, there's this: conservatives tend to think everything's a zero sum game. I mean, it's right there in their *title* - they think they need to conserve their present resources rather than expand them. They always think things *used* to be better, not that things *will be* better.
They think it is impossible for an out-group to gain an advantage without them *losing* one. For instance, you or I understands that welfare, education and health care are investments: even without speaking from a moral standpoint, we understand these things result in a stronger, more competitive work force on the world stage, improving our economy. We understand taxes are an investment in infrastructure, worth far more than they cost when deployed wisely.
They just see 'money outta my pocket.' They don't believe in growth, they don't believe in progress. It's not in them. They just see a finite pool of resources that must be controlled at any cost.
Frame stuff this way, and everything they're doing makes sense to me. They're keeping a death grip on the things they think are most important, and they perceive their authoritarian leaders to be demanding a smaller piece of the pie than we are. It's like the guy who voted Trump after getting screwed outta $3 mil - price theory tells me that he thought a Hillary Clinton presidency would cost him things he valued more. That's stupid, but it's explicable.
posted by mordax at 9:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
is this bad
It's just another step in his attempt to de-legitamize the intelligence community's assessments on the Russian hacking and continue his ego-fueled spat with the CIA.
If the president isn't going to listen to the CIA, they're going to take their case public with leaks of this type. With Woolsey leaving the transition team, its a signal to people still inside the agency that his administration is no ally.
posted by peeedro at 9:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
It's just another step in his attempt to de-legitamize the intelligence community's assessments on the Russian hacking and continue his ego-fueled spat with the CIA.
If the president isn't going to listen to the CIA, they're going to take their case public with leaks of this type. With Woolsey leaving the transition team, its a signal to people still inside the agency that his administration is no ally.
posted by peeedro at 9:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
is this bad
In Wisconsin, Governor Walker pretty much flaunted campaign finance laws, and then went after the D.A. who tried to prosecute his people for it. Eventually, the D.A.'s evidence leaked to the Guardian, and now the leak is being investigated by the state's Attorney General (who ignored the previous pro-Walker leak in the case).
posted by drezdn at 9:12 AM on January 6, 2017
In Wisconsin, Governor Walker pretty much flaunted campaign finance laws, and then went after the D.A. who tried to prosecute his people for it. Eventually, the D.A.'s evidence leaked to the Guardian, and now the leak is being investigated by the state's Attorney General (who ignored the previous pro-Walker leak in the case).
posted by drezdn at 9:12 AM on January 6, 2017
Then again who really wants to hear that the only reason they won something is because a third party interfered in your favor?
Which is exactly why everyone should rub this one in on our new President. Toss in the 3 million popular vote loss while you're at it. Anything that keeps the clown busy doing something else besides being President is worth it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Which is exactly why everyone should rub this one in on our new President. Toss in the 3 million popular vote loss while you're at it. Anything that keeps the clown busy doing something else besides being President is worth it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
@nycsouthpaw:
Trump can't accomplish a peaceful transfer of power on Celebrity Apprentice.
posted by chris24 at 9:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [57 favorites]
Trump can't accomplish a peaceful transfer of power on Celebrity Apprentice.
posted by chris24 at 9:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [57 favorites]
I am asking the chairs of the House and Senate committees to investigate top secret intelligence shared with NBC prior to me seeing it.
Isn't he legally just another chump until Inauguration Day?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Isn't he legally just another chump until Inauguration Day?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
My prediction is that Trump will attempt to drastically 'restructure' the country's intelligence apparatus because 'it keeps failing us,' while totally coincidentally (1) trying to remove anti-Trump government workers, (2) replacing civil servants with private-sector contractors ('see, it saves money!'), (3) 'cracking down on leaks' by imposing severe penalties that he can selectively enforce on people releasing information, and (4) expanding, rather than reducing, government spying and data-collection 'to keep us safe.' I'd also guess that this involves (5) consolidation of agencies for some fake-ish reason (saving money? 'better' oversight?) that ultimately places more power in the hands of the executive branch, by making a greater percentage of the intelligence community answerable to one director rather than several.
This. He's setting the stage for replacing the entire intelligence apparatus with Trumpapparatchiks. He's going to rebuild the intelligence agencies as a personal secret police force and turn the total information awareness state against his political enemies, ala his models Putin and Edrogan. This is the plan, it's not flailing. Stop underestimating him.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
This. He's setting the stage for replacing the entire intelligence apparatus with Trumpapparatchiks. He's going to rebuild the intelligence agencies as a personal secret police force and turn the total information awareness state against his political enemies, ala his models Putin and Edrogan. This is the plan, it's not flailing. Stop underestimating him.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
Assumptions about party loyalties and likelihood of voting took a beating this year, and the failures of 2016 have put the very idea of predictive polling on notice for elections this year and next.
That seems like an overreaction. We won't have a good handle on what went wrong until publicly-accessible polls like the ANES and CCES are out, but there are some likely easy fixes for some of the issues. Honestly, to a not-mass-politics dork like me a lot of it looks like pollsters stuck in practices that sort of made sense in ~1970 that are just indefensible with cheap computing, especially in an era of volatile elections like we're in.
(1) Stop equating national poll results to predicted presidential outcomes. Instead, use MRP to generate noisy-but-still-better state predictions from national polls and use those to predict presidential outcomes.
(2) Stop doing likely voter polls and switch to registered-voter polls where you directly estimate a probability of turnout from their responses and demographics, and incorporate those into the predicted outcomes, or just incorporate them directly into the MRP process as a multinomial logit (vote for candidate X, vote for candidate Y, vote for candidate Z, don't vote). I don't know what probability of turnout current likely-voter screens correspond to, but let's say it's 65\%. What likely voter polls assume by their construction is that 100\% of people with a turnout probability of 65\% or greater turn out while 0\% of people with a turnout probability under 65\% turn out. This is one of those obviously silly things to do that was probably a good-enough and much cheaper approximation in 1970. Instead, maybe assume that if some demographic group has an estimated turnout probability of 35\%, that about a third of them will actually vote. Given the number of polls they already do that are registered voter polls with likely voters broken out, not doing this is really just indefensible, and "this is how we've always done it" is a pretty shit-tastic defense.
(3) Do more state polls.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
That seems like an overreaction. We won't have a good handle on what went wrong until publicly-accessible polls like the ANES and CCES are out, but there are some likely easy fixes for some of the issues. Honestly, to a not-mass-politics dork like me a lot of it looks like pollsters stuck in practices that sort of made sense in ~1970 that are just indefensible with cheap computing, especially in an era of volatile elections like we're in.
(1) Stop equating national poll results to predicted presidential outcomes. Instead, use MRP to generate noisy-but-still-better state predictions from national polls and use those to predict presidential outcomes.
(2) Stop doing likely voter polls and switch to registered-voter polls where you directly estimate a probability of turnout from their responses and demographics, and incorporate those into the predicted outcomes, or just incorporate them directly into the MRP process as a multinomial logit (vote for candidate X, vote for candidate Y, vote for candidate Z, don't vote). I don't know what probability of turnout current likely-voter screens correspond to, but let's say it's 65\%. What likely voter polls assume by their construction is that 100\% of people with a turnout probability of 65\% or greater turn out while 0\% of people with a turnout probability under 65\% turn out. This is one of those obviously silly things to do that was probably a good-enough and much cheaper approximation in 1970. Instead, maybe assume that if some demographic group has an estimated turnout probability of 35\%, that about a third of them will actually vote. Given the number of polls they already do that are registered voter polls with likely voters broken out, not doing this is really just indefensible, and "this is how we've always done it" is a pretty shit-tastic defense.
(3) Do more state polls.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Isn't he legally just another chump until Inauguration Day?
Yeah but, you know, Congressional Repubs and useful idiots and all that
posted by Existential Dread at 9:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah but, you know, Congressional Repubs and useful idiots and all that
posted by Existential Dread at 9:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't think he's flailing: I think he's actively setting the stage for cleaning house.
I think both things are true. He plans to clean house, but he's making a hash of it. Russian hacking isn't the right ground for him to start the fight on.
posted by diogenes at 9:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think both things are true. He plans to clean house, but he's making a hash of it. Russian hacking isn't the right ground for him to start the fight on.
posted by diogenes at 9:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Because as Buchanan says, the Polish government remains popular in Poland, and even Putin is apparently popular in Russia ...
A frightening WaPo story on the Polish "Law & Justice" party and their populist rule from several weeks ago: "In Poland, a window on what happens when populists come to power."
Basically, as is noted, it's a zero-sum game: eliminate the "intellectuals," eliminate journalists, and buy the support of at least 51% of the population while vilifying the remainder. It's an old, old, story.
And this just in—pages from Dylann Roof's prison journal introduced in his trial reveal that he's a big fan of Vladimir Putin, too.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:31 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
A frightening WaPo story on the Polish "Law & Justice" party and their populist rule from several weeks ago: "In Poland, a window on what happens when populists come to power."
Basically, as is noted, it's a zero-sum game: eliminate the "intellectuals," eliminate journalists, and buy the support of at least 51% of the population while vilifying the remainder. It's an old, old, story.
And this just in—pages from Dylann Roof's prison journal introduced in his trial reveal that he's a big fan of Vladimir Putin, too.
"Now is the reason Russia is a conservative, racially aware country because it is Slavic? Of course not. It is because their government supports these beliefs and has pride in its people, as well as the fact that their media doesn't have a far-left agenda and neither do their schools."Why with views like those, he'd be eligible for a job with the new administration.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:31 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Why with views like those, he'd be eligible for a job with the new administration.
His major crime was mass-murdering black people with guns before the GOP is willing to admit that's their thing. Right now they're still in the bureaucracy stage of mass-murdering black people, doing it with poverty, lack of medical care, and police.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:38 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
His major crime was mass-murdering black people with guns before the GOP is willing to admit that's their thing. Right now they're still in the bureaucracy stage of mass-murdering black people, doing it with poverty, lack of medical care, and police.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:38 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
He's going to rebuild the intelligence agencies as a personal secret police force and turn the total information awareness state against his political enemies. This is the plan, it's not flailing. Stop underestimating him.
I agree that this is his plan. And he might well pull it off despite himself. I'm not underestimating his evil. But I think crediting him with the ability to control himself in the present to implement a long-term plan underestimates his instability.
posted by diogenes at 9:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I agree that this is his plan. And he might well pull it off despite himself. I'm not underestimating his evil. But I think crediting him with the ability to control himself in the present to implement a long-term plan underestimates his instability.
posted by diogenes at 9:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
In their own words: The story of covering Election Night 2016: This is the story of election night 2016 in the words of more than 20 journalists who were in the field, in the newsrooms, at the anchor desks, and in the control rooms. The story of how Donald Trump's stunning win was covered in real time.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is it just pure racism/tribalism?
Yes, probably. See this preface of his, for instance, where both the Anglo supremacist and Christian tribalist perspectives are explicit. The book is basically an open letter to George W. Bush telling him to stop being such an idiot, though, so it's just barely possible that he wrote it that way for Bush.
posted by Coventry at 9:42 AM on January 6, 2017
Yes, probably. See this preface of his, for instance, where both the Anglo supremacist and Christian tribalist perspectives are explicit. The book is basically an open letter to George W. Bush telling him to stop being such an idiot, though, so it's just barely possible that he wrote it that way for Bush.
posted by Coventry at 9:42 AM on January 6, 2017
If it's a contest between Trump and the CIA, my money is on the CIA
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:44 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:44 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Also,
Are these conservatives as openly anti-democracy as they seem?
Yes.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Are these conservatives as openly anti-democracy as they seem?
Yes.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
BREAKING. My Senator just emailed me to say that I won the inauguration ticket lottery, and there will be four seats reserved for me. That's four empty seats, Mr. Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [72 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [72 favorites]
Let's use the DJT twitter text dump data linked above for some ill-advised, not-indicative-at-all messing! There's more, deeper analysis out there, but I was interested how his word-use compared with the general public.
I found an authoritative-sounding (and free!) list of the top 5000 words most frequently used in modern American English: the Corpus of Contemporary American English (CCAE).
I took DJT's tweet dump, removed superfluous columns and RTs ("TRUE/FALSE" in the CSV), and found his 5000 most frequently-used words. Let's compare the lists!
Top 10 words by usage frequency …
Here's the spreadsheet if you'd like to play around (or correct any errors). The CCAE seems to insist strenuously on a credit link, so here's another one: http://www.wordfrequency.info/intro.asp.
870/5000 words overlap. Under-use above means the CCAE has the word ranked higher (more frequent usage than DJT); over-use means DJT uses the word much more than its CCAE rank.
Of course, tweets aren't normal parlance so the comparison is tenuous. Don't read too much into 'I' appearing in Donald's top 10; it's ranked #11 in CCAE.
(Apologies for formatting; I couldn't see how to insert padding without all the periods. And I'm not sure what n't is doing there in CCAE).
posted by Quagkapi at 9:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
I found an authoritative-sounding (and free!) list of the top 5000 words most frequently used in modern American English: the Corpus of Contemporary American English (CCAE).
I took DJT's tweet dump, removed superfluous columns and RTs ("TRUE/FALSE" in the CSV), and found his 5000 most frequently-used words. Let's compare the lists!
Top 10 words by usage frequency …
| CCAE | . . . DJT . . . | in CCAE, not in DJT | most under-used by DJT | most over-used by DJT |
|------|-----------------|---------------------|------------------------|-----------------------|
| the .| the . . . . . . | n't . . . . . . . . | woman . . . . . . . . .| no . . . . . . . . . .|
| be . | to . . . . . . .| child . . . . . . . | school . . . . . . . . | this . . . . . . . . .|
| and .| a . . . . . . . | three . . . . . . . | few . . . . . . . . . .| any . . . . . . . . . |
| of . | realdonaldtrump | between . . . . . . | company . . . . . . . .| running . . . . . . . |
| a . .| is . . . . . . .| leave . . . . . . . | system . . . . . . . . | coming . . . . . . . .|
| in . | you . . . . . . | mean . . . . . . . .| question . . . . . . . | fantastic . . . . . . |
| to . | and . . . . . . | student . . . . . . | number . . . . . . . . | republican . . . . . .|
| have | in . . . . . . .| group . . . . . . . | kind . . . . . . . . . | crowd . . . . . . . . |
| to . | of . . . . . . .| begin . . . . . . . | head . . . . . . . . . | public . . . . . . . .|
| it . | i . . . . . . . | seem . . . . . . . .| father . . . . . . . . | boring . . . . . . . .|
Here's the spreadsheet if you'd like to play around (or correct any errors). The CCAE seems to insist strenuously on a credit link, so here's another one: http://www.wordfrequency.info/intro.asp.
870/5000 words overlap. Under-use above means the CCAE has the word ranked higher (more frequent usage than DJT); over-use means DJT uses the word much more than its CCAE rank.
Of course, tweets aren't normal parlance so the comparison is tenuous. Don't read too much into 'I' appearing in Donald's top 10; it's ranked #11 in CCAE.
(Apologies for formatting; I couldn't see how to insert padding without all the periods. And I'm not sure what n't is doing there in CCAE).
posted by Quagkapi at 9:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
he publicly considered running in 1998, and sort-of-ran in 2000
2012, too.
posted by Coventry at 9:58 AM on January 6, 2017
2012, too.
posted by Coventry at 9:58 AM on January 6, 2017
Nice datawankery, Quagkapi! Warms my heart. And makes me wonder whether and how much work anyone's been doing on creating a reference twitter corpus, actually, since as you note the comparison of that specific mode to more general usage is a problem here.
posted by cortex at 9:59 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by cortex at 9:59 AM on January 6, 2017
People will look back and think of us as another species almost, incomprehensible, a stupid and barbaric people without any enlightenment or foresight or integrity, gleefully burning the house down around ourselves.
Such is humanity. We can look back at McCarthyism and HUAC and say the same things; look back to Jim Crow and to slavery and the genocide of native peoples on this continent and say the same thing. We are a violent, horrifying species to a large extent. We do seem to keep stumbling onwards in spite of it all.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Such is humanity. We can look back at McCarthyism and HUAC and say the same things; look back to Jim Crow and to slavery and the genocide of native peoples on this continent and say the same thing. We are a violent, horrifying species to a large extent. We do seem to keep stumbling onwards in spite of it all.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
That would be a more convincing statement before he won the general election, or before he the Republican primary...
Trump's lack-of-control seems to be working for him, for now
I'm hoping that his lack-of-control is less well suited to warring with the intelligence community than it was to demagoguery.
posted by diogenes at 10:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trump's lack-of-control seems to be working for him, for now
I'm hoping that his lack-of-control is less well suited to warring with the intelligence community than it was to demagoguery.
posted by diogenes at 10:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Okay but if it's just garden variety racism which is driving this wave of voting-against-democracy, why is it only becoming a thing NOW? I mean, we had racists and racism in the 1990s too?
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
We even had Pat Buchanan and Donald Trump in the 1990s. Why now?
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:02 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:02 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
And why in so many countries at once?
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Okay but if it's just garden variety racism which is driving this wave of voting-against-democracy, why is it only becoming a thing NOW? I mean, we had racists and racism in the 1990s too?
8 years of a black president.
posted by chris24 at 10:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
8 years of a black president.
posted by chris24 at 10:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
8 years of a black president.
Absolutely this. Also Putin's stirring the pot pretty good.
posted by mordax at 10:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
Absolutely this. Also Putin's stirring the pot pretty good.
posted by mordax at 10:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
Aww, thanks cortex. Wankery is what I do. I originally searched for a text-dump of even a small amount of English Twitter usage (apparently 6000 tweets/sec), which might be more representative, but couldn't find one. Hence CCAE. But I hope someone's got a big dataset somewhere.
posted by Quagkapi at 10:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Quagkapi at 10:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
And I'm not sure what n't is doing there in CCAE
n't and other contraction markers are sometimes broken out into their own tokens in computational linguistics. So for example "wouldn't" becomes "would" and "n't". I'd be surprised if Trump never uses -n't forms, so it's probably an artifact of how his tweets were tokenized.
whether and how much work anyone's been doing on creating a reference twitter corpus
There's the Edinburgh Twitter Corpus. There's also the Rovereto corpus [archive.is link], but its original site has been compromised with malware.
posted by jedicus at 10:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
n't and other contraction markers are sometimes broken out into their own tokens in computational linguistics. So for example "wouldn't" becomes "would" and "n't". I'd be surprised if Trump never uses -n't forms, so it's probably an artifact of how his tweets were tokenized.
whether and how much work anyone's been doing on creating a reference twitter corpus
There's the Edinburgh Twitter Corpus. There's also the Rovereto corpus [archive.is link], but its original site has been compromised with malware.
posted by jedicus at 10:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
If it's a contest between Trump and the CIA, my money is on the CIA
You do realise that an iagency led coup d'etat in America has really, really bad implications?
On the other hand, a coup d'etat by the party in power also has really, really bad implications.
My preferred method of getting rid of mobsters is via the IRS, a la Capone. C'mon, America, you're crawling with lawyers.
posted by Devonian at 10:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Every major advancement in civil rights has had a huge white backlash against it. Civil War/Reconstruction? Jim Crow, KKK. Civil Rights Act? Assassination of MLK, Southern Strategy, 5 Republican landslides in 6 elections. First black president? Alt-right, Trumpism.
posted by chris24 at 10:10 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 10:10 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
They'll look at Republican obstructionism from 2010 onward and think, these people are traitors. This is treason. I mean, an entire branch of government wholly dedicated to preventing another branch of government from getting anything done? Refusing to do the job they were elected to do and actively blocking or reversing as much progress as possible? How could anyone vote for them, or fail to vote them out once it was clear what they were doing?
I think this is wildly over-optimistic. I lived through the Reagan years, and remember the awfulness quite clearly. And yet somehow it's all been written out of the narrative, and Reagan is remembered as "great statesman who brought down Soviet Union" rather than the huge disaster he actually was. History is written by the winners.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:12 AM on January 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
I think this is wildly over-optimistic. I lived through the Reagan years, and remember the awfulness quite clearly. And yet somehow it's all been written out of the narrative, and Reagan is remembered as "great statesman who brought down Soviet Union" rather than the huge disaster he actually was. History is written by the winners.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:12 AM on January 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
You do realise that an iagency led coup d'etat in America has really, really bad implications?
I wish I was more certain that that path was definitely worse than our current path.
posted by diogenes at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
I wish I was more certain that that path was definitely worse than our current path.
posted by diogenes at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
You do realise that [...] in America has really, really bad implications?
We've already been eating American Bad Implications for breakfast each morning for a while now. Any timeline that doesn't end in us dying via 1) full-scale nuclear war 2) paramilitary death squads 3) climate change is a good timeline from here on out.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
We've already been eating American Bad Implications for breakfast each morning for a while now. Any timeline that doesn't end in us dying via 1) full-scale nuclear war 2) paramilitary death squads 3) climate change is a good timeline from here on out.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
8 years of a black president.
which is the actual, racist context (it's not even a subcontext) for all the 'cuck' bullshittery, and the 'SJW' label too (the treasonous, ungrateful women eager to debase themselves in service to the interlopers, and their queer buddies) -- and not the usual dodge that it's about an overly accommodating GOP establishment (which is itself absurd).
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
which is the actual, racist context (it's not even a subcontext) for all the 'cuck' bullshittery, and the 'SJW' label too (the treasonous, ungrateful women eager to debase themselves in service to the interlopers, and their queer buddies) -- and not the usual dodge that it's about an overly accommodating GOP establishment (which is itself absurd).
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
My first awareness of Donald outside of "that one TV star with stupid hair and a rotten personality" was when he started spouting birther nonsense and peddling birth certificate conspiracy theories in 2012. I was utterly perplexed about why anyone would give such a blatant racist and liar any kind of authority, and why anyone could look at him and think he was suitable for town dogcatcher, let alone the presidency.
I was very, very naive back then.
A large part of this is also the fault of ordinary citizens in the countries affected for taking the bait and who chose to listen to Trump/Brexiters/Le Pen/anti-immigration hysteria. They wouldn't have any power if scary numbers of regular people didn't listen to and support them. We can't let regular folks who enable this off the hook - yes, they were manipulated, but they also allowed themselves to be.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 10:15 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
I was very, very naive back then.
A large part of this is also the fault of ordinary citizens in the countries affected for taking the bait and who chose to listen to Trump/Brexiters/Le Pen/anti-immigration hysteria. They wouldn't have any power if scary numbers of regular people didn't listen to and support them. We can't let regular folks who enable this off the hook - yes, they were manipulated, but they also allowed themselves to be.
posted by thedarksideofprocyon at 10:15 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
I'm still somewhat optimistic that we'll be able to hold the worst of this at bay. We aren't Poland, aren't 1930s Germany or Austria; we're a deeply flawed yet diverse society with a strong (for now) economy and a demagogic leader elected by less than half the population and with the lowest approval rating of any incoming leader. We managed to get the worst of the Congressional Republicans to reverse course on weakening the ethics office through outraged yelling. Now the ACA repeal is starting to look shaky.
Could be worse.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:18 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Could be worse.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:18 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
WaPo: What Trump got wrong on Twitter this week
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:20 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:20 AM on January 6, 2017
Josh Marshall has a 45min interview with Kieth Ellison
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:20 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:20 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Could be worse.
Trump hasn't even been sworn in yet.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:22 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Trump hasn't even been sworn in yet.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:22 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm not so sure that the presidential confirmation vote and the ongoing situation in Fort Lauderdale aren't related.
This election has made paranoid.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:22 AM on January 6, 2017
This election has made paranoid.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:22 AM on January 6, 2017
First black president? Alt-right, Trumpism.
I'm sure that's part of it in America, but what about the rest of the world, and especially Europe?
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm sure that's part of it in America, but what about the rest of the world, and especially Europe?
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
NeverTrump was always a complete farce, the only reason they were against him at all was they didn't think he could win.
I think it's really important to note what NeverTrump is and what it isn't, as well as what 'strange bedfellow' alliances can and can't do. Because joint opposition to Trump is a real force that can be leveraged for some very good things, but if people dismiss it because it's not what they want it to be, it's not going to get made use of.
NeverTrump is a movement of Republicans who stand in opposition to what they see as extremist, uncivil, and America destroying actions of Trump, and are working both in front of and behind the scenes to stop it, along a variety of paths.
It doesn't mean Republicans who are going to vote in agreement with Democratic priorities to make some sort of weird point I don't fully understand. It doesn't mean Republicans who will vote against their other Republicans Just Because. It means Republicans who have a conscience and have a sense of where Too Far is, and are committed to stop things before they get there.
So yes, I expect lots of NeverTrump Republicans to vote against the ACA they have always opposed, and in favor of tax cuts they have always supported, and a host of other issues.
Where I am counting on them to break with party is in things like some of the worse cabinet appointments, or on a vote to destroy the filibuster, or any attempt to actually bring about the fascist state that Trump seems to love so much. I think that they might support an impeachment if they thought they had the votes for it. And those are the times when Dems and Republicans will need to work together, because they can't do it alone. And those are the things I believe those Senators can be counted on for. But they haven't switched parties, they're just joining forces to stop a monster, and it's important to remember that.
posted by corb at 10:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
I think it's really important to note what NeverTrump is and what it isn't, as well as what 'strange bedfellow' alliances can and can't do. Because joint opposition to Trump is a real force that can be leveraged for some very good things, but if people dismiss it because it's not what they want it to be, it's not going to get made use of.
NeverTrump is a movement of Republicans who stand in opposition to what they see as extremist, uncivil, and America destroying actions of Trump, and are working both in front of and behind the scenes to stop it, along a variety of paths.
It doesn't mean Republicans who are going to vote in agreement with Democratic priorities to make some sort of weird point I don't fully understand. It doesn't mean Republicans who will vote against their other Republicans Just Because. It means Republicans who have a conscience and have a sense of where Too Far is, and are committed to stop things before they get there.
So yes, I expect lots of NeverTrump Republicans to vote against the ACA they have always opposed, and in favor of tax cuts they have always supported, and a host of other issues.
Where I am counting on them to break with party is in things like some of the worse cabinet appointments, or on a vote to destroy the filibuster, or any attempt to actually bring about the fascist state that Trump seems to love so much. I think that they might support an impeachment if they thought they had the votes for it. And those are the times when Dems and Republicans will need to work together, because they can't do it alone. And those are the things I believe those Senators can be counted on for. But they haven't switched parties, they're just joining forces to stop a monster, and it's important to remember that.
posted by corb at 10:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
what about the rest of the world, and especially Europe
Its entire history, after the resolution of the Cold War?
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Its entire history, after the resolution of the Cold War?
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
First black president? Alt-right, Trumpism.
I'm sure that's part of it in America, but what about the rest of the world, and especially Europe?
The middle east refugee crisis and immigration, thanks to the disastrous war of G.W. Bush. Just another flavor of racism.
posted by JackFlash at 10:26 AM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
I'm sure that's part of it in America, but what about the rest of the world, and especially Europe?
The middle east refugee crisis and immigration, thanks to the disastrous war of G.W. Bush. Just another flavor of racism.
posted by JackFlash at 10:26 AM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
To expand a bit, my take on it is that these tendencies or trajectories or whatever are not new and surprising, in either the US or Europe or elsewhere, really..
But it is alarming that the structures that we've set up that we thought were going to free us from these cycles, or at least contain them and lessen their impact, don't seem to be holding up. Applying equally to civic values, political norms, forms of government, or various international frameworks and organizations, etc...
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
But it is alarming that the structures that we've set up that we thought were going to free us from these cycles, or at least contain them and lessen their impact, don't seem to be holding up. Applying equally to civic values, political norms, forms of government, or various international frameworks and organizations, etc...
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
His first three days in office are gonna exhaust you in a way you can't quite imagine properly.
How will it even be possible to keep track of all the simultaneous threads of clusterfuck? I can't think of a similar situation of all-encompassing chaos in US politics in my lifetime. The first days post-9/11 were plenty chaotic but they didn't involve every single branch and leaf of the federal government.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
How will it even be possible to keep track of all the simultaneous threads of clusterfuck? I can't think of a similar situation of all-encompassing chaos in US politics in my lifetime. The first days post-9/11 were plenty chaotic but they didn't involve every single branch and leaf of the federal government.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Trump Says Focus on Russian Hacking Is a ‘Political Witch Hunt’
China, relatively recently, hacked 20 million government names,” he said, referring to the breach of computers at the Office of Personnel Management in late 2014 and early 2015. “How come nobody even talks about that? This is a political witch hunt.”
Maybe that's his plan to extricate himself. Acknowledge the Russian hacking, but question the focus.
posted by diogenes at 10:44 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
China, relatively recently, hacked 20 million government names,” he said, referring to the breach of computers at the Office of Personnel Management in late 2014 and early 2015. “How come nobody even talks about that? This is a political witch hunt.”
Maybe that's his plan to extricate himself. Acknowledge the Russian hacking, but question the focus.
posted by diogenes at 10:44 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
@wltaskforce: We are thinking of making an online database with all "verified" twitter accounts & their family/job/financial/housing relationships.
Hoped you like GamerGate because everything is GamerGate now forever.
posted by Artw at 10:46 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
Hoped you like GamerGate because everything is GamerGate now forever.
posted by Artw at 10:46 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
they're just joining forces to stop a monster, and it's important to remember that
We've seen zero evidence that NeverTrump is interested in this. Zero.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
We've seen zero evidence that NeverTrump is interested in this. Zero.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Maybe that's his plan to extricate himself. Acknowledge the Russian hacking, but question the focus.
Although, to be clear, he didn't acknowledge it during the interview, but he might be working up to that.
posted by diogenes at 10:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Although, to be clear, he didn't acknowledge it during the interview, but he might be working up to that.
posted by diogenes at 10:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
His first three days in office are gonna exhaust you in a way you can't quite imagine properly.
How will it even be possible to keep track of all the simultaneous threads of clusterfuck?
Perhaps, but the guy is not a king. There's going to be plenty of resistance from folks who's sacred cows are getting gored (e.g. the F35; the pushback on ACA repeal). I'm not trying to be an unrealistic pollyanna, but I do believe that the situation is far from hopeless.
Putin is definitely going to achieve his goal of a substantial weakened USA.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
How will it even be possible to keep track of all the simultaneous threads of clusterfuck?
Perhaps, but the guy is not a king. There's going to be plenty of resistance from folks who's sacred cows are getting gored (e.g. the F35; the pushback on ACA repeal). I'm not trying to be an unrealistic pollyanna, but I do believe that the situation is far from hopeless.
Putin is definitely going to achieve his goal of a substantial weakened USA.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Massachusetts sheriff offers prison inmates to build Trump's wall: "I can think of no other project that would have such a positive impact on our inmates and our country than building this wall," Bristol County Sheriff Thomas Hodgson said at his swearing-in ceremony for a fourth term in office late Wednesday.
"Aside from learning and perfecting construction skills, the symbolism of these inmates building a wall to prevent crime in communities around the country, and to preserve jobs and work opportunities for them and other Americans upon release, can be very powerful," he said.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:52 AM on January 6, 2017
"Aside from learning and perfecting construction skills, the symbolism of these inmates building a wall to prevent crime in communities around the country, and to preserve jobs and work opportunities for them and other Americans upon release, can be very powerful," he said.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:52 AM on January 6, 2017
For that matter - is NeverTrump still a real movement? It failed. Utterly. Republicans refuted so-called NeverTrumpers much more thoroughly than they even defeated the devastated Democrats. His election proved Republicans are happy to line up behind a tyrant, regardless of how many blatantly disqualifying and dangerous character flaws he has, so long as he promised to kick liberals and POC hard enough. The entire premise of NeverTrump, that there is any other kind of Republican voter, was proven categorically false.
Who are the elected leaders of NeverTrump? Has even one formerly NeverTrump "leader" publicly committed to opposing him, on anything? Even once since his election?
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Who are the elected leaders of NeverTrump? Has even one formerly NeverTrump "leader" publicly committed to opposing him, on anything? Even once since his election?
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
So yes, I expect lots of NeverTrump Republicans to vote against the ACA they have always opposed, and in favor of tax cuts they have always supported, and a host of other issues.
Right, they'll vote to let people die without bothering to come up with even a minor temporary solution, and they'll vote to give the rich even more money while taking it out of the hands of the country's most vulnerable citizens. We've already seen them vote for that. Really, just some stellar jobs at sticking it to the average American.
Where I am counting on them to break with party is in things like some of the worse cabinet appointments, or on a vote to destroy the filibuster, or any attempt to actually bring about the fascist state that Trump seems to love so much.
You are aware that they're not actually doing this, right? This is just assuming with facts not in evidence. None of them have stepped in to stop Congress from compelling witnesses to appear, or to stop federal workers from being stripped of their livelihoods and their rights. None of them are stepping up to defend women's health, or lands from being bought by the lowest bidder with zero accountability. None of them are stepping up to defend PoC or LGBTQ or Muslim Americans. And those cabinet positions? At this point the only one I see anybody is complaining about is Rex Tillerson. Sessions, an avowed white supremacist, has what appears to the entire GOP caucus on his side. DeVos, who has decimated schooling in Michigan, is getting rave reviews. They're actually asking for Kris Kobach, the guy thinks that mass imprisonment based on race or religion isn't all that bad an idea.
NeverTrump? For right now I'm calling bullshit. They've done two things so far: jack and shit. If they want us to trust them, they've done a really fucking piss-poor job of it. When Jeff Flake and and Ben Sasse and Lindsay Graham are lining up behind the people who want to bring back Jim Crow, I think we can say that NeverTrump is about as trustworthy as Trump himself.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:57 AM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
Right, they'll vote to let people die without bothering to come up with even a minor temporary solution, and they'll vote to give the rich even more money while taking it out of the hands of the country's most vulnerable citizens. We've already seen them vote for that. Really, just some stellar jobs at sticking it to the average American.
Where I am counting on them to break with party is in things like some of the worse cabinet appointments, or on a vote to destroy the filibuster, or any attempt to actually bring about the fascist state that Trump seems to love so much.
You are aware that they're not actually doing this, right? This is just assuming with facts not in evidence. None of them have stepped in to stop Congress from compelling witnesses to appear, or to stop federal workers from being stripped of their livelihoods and their rights. None of them are stepping up to defend women's health, or lands from being bought by the lowest bidder with zero accountability. None of them are stepping up to defend PoC or LGBTQ or Muslim Americans. And those cabinet positions? At this point the only one I see anybody is complaining about is Rex Tillerson. Sessions, an avowed white supremacist, has what appears to the entire GOP caucus on his side. DeVos, who has decimated schooling in Michigan, is getting rave reviews. They're actually asking for Kris Kobach, the guy thinks that mass imprisonment based on race or religion isn't all that bad an idea.
NeverTrump? For right now I'm calling bullshit. They've done two things so far: jack and shit. If they want us to trust them, they've done a really fucking piss-poor job of it. When Jeff Flake and and Ben Sasse and Lindsay Graham are lining up behind the people who want to bring back Jim Crow, I think we can say that NeverTrump is about as trustworthy as Trump himself.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:57 AM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
NeverTrump is a movement of Republicans who stand in opposition to what they see as extremist, uncivil, and America destroying actions of Trump.
Nope, NeverTrumpers are just fine with the extremist, uncivil and American destroying actions of Ted Cruz. They aren't allies of the left.
What some NeverTrumpers thought is that Trump's attacks on Hispanics went too far but were okay with Ted Cruz's attacks on Muslims. Seems rather self-serving.
posted by JackFlash at 10:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Nope, NeverTrumpers are just fine with the extremist, uncivil and American destroying actions of Ted Cruz. They aren't allies of the left.
What some NeverTrumpers thought is that Trump's attacks on Hispanics went too far but were okay with Ted Cruz's attacks on Muslims. Seems rather self-serving.
posted by JackFlash at 10:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
My preferred method of getting rid of mobsters is via the IRS, a la Capone. C'mon, America, you're crawling with lawyers.
He seems to be on a collision course with his own party with regard to health care and fiscal stimulus, so at the moment I think the most likely outcome is that within the next 12 months he'll be impeached by a coalition of Democrats and Republicans and replaced by Pence.
posted by Coventry at 10:59 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
He seems to be on a collision course with his own party with regard to health care and fiscal stimulus, so at the moment I think the most likely outcome is that within the next 12 months he'll be impeached by a coalition of Democrats and Republicans and replaced by Pence.
posted by Coventry at 10:59 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone was expecting NeverTrump to not be Republicans, but so far, there has been no substantive opposition to Trump whatsoever. From Sens. McCain, Graham, and Paul, we've gotten some stern talking and some talk of voting against a cabinet appointment or two, but nothing resembling any serious effort to stop anything.
Apparent Signs of Gop Disunity Never Pass the "You and What Army?" Test
posted by tonycpsu at 10:59 AM on January 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
Apparent Signs of Gop Disunity Never Pass the "You and What Army?" Test
And I guess I'm expected to see this story as evidence that Republicans in Congress might hold Donald Trump's feet to the fire if he's overly cozy with shady pro-Russian characters or overly dismissive of the U.S. intelligence community:This is the exact same two-step that McCain, Graham, and some others on occasion (Snowe, Collins) did throughout the Bush presidency. Perhaps Flake and Paul are more committed to actually voting against a couple of things, we'll see. But so far, there is no reason for anyone to think very highly of the sincerity of their opposition.Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) on Wednesday said he had more trust in the country's intelligence community than in WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. [...]These apparent declarations of independence are catnip to the news media -- but how often do they amount to anything?
Remember the days before Christmas, when there were headlines such as "Bipartisan Call for Committee to Probe Russian Cyberattacks" and "Bipartisan Senators Call for New Committee on Russian Hacking"? If you just read the headlines, you might have believed that a significant number of Republicans wanted there to be a select committee to look into Russian electoral shenanigans -- but, in fact, only John McCain and Lindsey Graham were on board.
And now:John McCain and Lindsey Graham are backing off of their push for a select committee on cybersecurity after Russian interference in the election, bowing to the political reality that the Senate Republican Conference largely does not back their idea....It's going to be like this over and over and over again -- whatever Donald Trump wants, or the House and Senate leadership want, is what's going to happen. There might be one or two grumblers in the GOP ranks, but the Republican Party is the Borg -- resistance is futile. The few who deviate from Correct Thinking are always brought back in line. (And in every case there are only a tiny few.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:59 AM on January 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
@wltaskforce: We are thinking of making an online database with all "verified" twitter accounts & their family/job/financial/housing relationships.
You'd think they would have figured out by now that in 2017, you don't need to vaguely allude to threatening people on Twitter. You can just do it. Especially when you're really talking about non-hetero/WASPs.
posted by Etrigan at 11:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
You'd think they would have figured out by now that in 2017, you don't need to vaguely allude to threatening people on Twitter. You can just do it. Especially when you're really talking about non-hetero/WASPs.
posted by Etrigan at 11:00 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
NeverTrump = the new incarnation of Susan Collins as Lucy with the football. Maybe we'll vote with Democrats, someday. On something. If we like it.
But actually, we won't.
Try to kick that ball again, here, we'll hold it for you.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
But actually, we won't.
Try to kick that ball again, here, we'll hold it for you.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Hell, when's the last time the NeverTrumpers said peep about Bannon? For people that claim to be "joining forces to stop a monster," they're awfully quiet about a guy who has openly talked about the genetic inferiority of PoC, Jews, Muslims in the same way as Heinrich fucking Himmler.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:02 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 11:02 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Massachusetts sheriff offers prison inmates to build Trump's wall
"Let me off these people (Whom I own) to do work for free for you."
Slave labor much?
Also, unless these people are experienced builders, does it really make sense to have them be the ones building a major construction project intended to make an entire border impassable? I mean, I know slave labor worked for the pyramids, but really? If I were a professional construction worker, I'd be insulted.
Also also, if slave labor is building the wall, its not creating any jobs.
Also also also, building something like this on the cheap dooms it to failure so good?
Apparent Signs of Gop Disunity Never Pass the "You and What Army?" Test
1. We can't count on Republicans to save us.
2. We can't count on Democrats to save us.
3. We can't count on $1 an hour civil servants to save us.
4. Things are much harder than in the after world. In this life. You're on your own.
5. Let's go crazy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
"Let me off these people (Whom I own) to do work for free for you."
Slave labor much?
Also, unless these people are experienced builders, does it really make sense to have them be the ones building a major construction project intended to make an entire border impassable? I mean, I know slave labor worked for the pyramids, but really? If I were a professional construction worker, I'd be insulted.
Also also, if slave labor is building the wall, its not creating any jobs.
Also also also, building something like this on the cheap dooms it to failure so good?
Apparent Signs of Gop Disunity Never Pass the "You and What Army?" Test
1. We can't count on Republicans to save us.
2. We can't count on Democrats to save us.
3. We can't count on $1 an hour civil servants to save us.
4. Things are much harder than in the after world. In this life. You're on your own.
5. Let's go crazy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
There might be one or two grumblers in the GOP ranks, but the Republican Party is the Borg -- resistance is futile.
For a lot of stuff, you're right - there are only a few senators. They will be publicly useful only for votes that take 51 members to carry.
But if the Republican Party is anything, I think of it more like an iceberg. So much more stuff is happening under the surface than appears visible anywhere. Like this month and last, I've been part of an organized effort to try to organize and vote out Trumpist RNC members. Is it reported anywhere? No, because why should it? The effort thrives more the less Trumpists know about it.
Likewise, I think the advantage of having resisting legislators, or legislators known to be willing to resist, is going to be in back room deals. It's going to be in a moderating influence on the worst legislation, because the leaders aren't going to want to see anything go down in flames, so they may avoid doing the worst if the worst is going to get people voting against it.
And I guess that's a matter of trust. I know some of these things are happening, because I'm involved in them or know people who are involved in them. I can't show it, and if everything remains confined to back rooms, it may never be shown. But I know that it is happening, and I find it a comfort. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
For a lot of stuff, you're right - there are only a few senators. They will be publicly useful only for votes that take 51 members to carry.
But if the Republican Party is anything, I think of it more like an iceberg. So much more stuff is happening under the surface than appears visible anywhere. Like this month and last, I've been part of an organized effort to try to organize and vote out Trumpist RNC members. Is it reported anywhere? No, because why should it? The effort thrives more the less Trumpists know about it.
Likewise, I think the advantage of having resisting legislators, or legislators known to be willing to resist, is going to be in back room deals. It's going to be in a moderating influence on the worst legislation, because the leaders aren't going to want to see anything go down in flames, so they may avoid doing the worst if the worst is going to get people voting against it.
And I guess that's a matter of trust. I know some of these things are happening, because I'm involved in them or know people who are involved in them. I can't show it, and if everything remains confined to back rooms, it may never be shown. But I know that it is happening, and I find it a comfort. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
I just feel like we have been told repeatedly that "things are happening" for more than a year now, and ultimately, nothing was happening at all.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:11 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:11 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
And I guess that's a matter of trust. I know some of these things are happening, because I'm involved in them or know people who are involved in them. I can't show it, and if everything remains confined to back rooms, it may never be shown. But I know that it is happening, and I find it a comfort.
Sort of like Trump's secret plan to win the war in Syria.
posted by JackFlash at 11:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sort of like Trump's secret plan to win the war in Syria.
posted by JackFlash at 11:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Forgive me if backroom negotiations over whether to have the concentration camps in Wyoming or Montana seem like a cold comfort.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Massachusetts sheriff offers prison inmates to build Trump's wall
Wait until the inmates find out they have to make the bricks without straw.
posted by JackFlash at 11:15 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Wait until the inmates find out they have to make the bricks without straw.
posted by JackFlash at 11:15 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I find it hard to believe, too. It's not as the party doesn't actually know that Planned Parenthood =/= "OMG abortions are funded by the taxpayers," or that not scoring bills via the CBO is a way to stick the working and middle class with the bills for legislative and executive malfeasance, or that systemic voter fraud isn't real. Either they know and they just don't care, or they're part of the same Reverse Hanlon's Razor as the crazies are.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 11:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
eh, all the Never Trumpers were the people who built the Republican party into a group that was represented by Trump. They might not have liked his hair, or his inarticulacy, but they aren't ideologically opposed to his basic ideas - that idiots are better than experts, that some people don't deserve welfare, that foreigners are suspicious, that more guns will make America shoot the right people better, that having your kids die working in a coal mine is better than sending them away to school where they learn to be an intellectually capable member of modern society, etc etc.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 11:18 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 11:18 AM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
"Do you still think you can control them?"
posted by theodolite at 11:19 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 11:19 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Doing things beneath the visible portion of the iceberg are great -- I'm glad that there are people committed to doing that. But the power to turn around an aircraft carrier as big as a political party doesn't come from a handful of activists, it has to either come from the elected leaders themselves risking their own electoral safety, or from a large and visible movement within the party that scares a significant number of those elected leaders into doing the right thing. Neither of those is happening right now.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:19 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 11:19 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
I just feel like we have been told repeatedly that "things are happening" for more than a year now, and ultimately, nothing was happening at all.
I don't think that's entirely fair. I think a lot of groups and individuals tried a lot of things, a lot of things did happen and were attempted. We just lost, which is heartbreakingly depressing as it is, but shouldn't mean that our entire exhausting and awful struggle is retconned as nonexistent.
Likewise, I don't know how far these things will succeed. I don't know how much one senator, or three senators, is worth. I don't know if they'll crack. I know that right now people are trying to buttress them and keep them strong. I know that right now there's a seed of hope, and I feel like it's really frustrating and sadmaking when people do driveby trollolols about the things some of us are working hard every day on.
posted by corb at 11:19 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
I don't think that's entirely fair. I think a lot of groups and individuals tried a lot of things, a lot of things did happen and were attempted. We just lost, which is heartbreakingly depressing as it is, but shouldn't mean that our entire exhausting and awful struggle is retconned as nonexistent.
Likewise, I don't know how far these things will succeed. I don't know how much one senator, or three senators, is worth. I don't know if they'll crack. I know that right now people are trying to buttress them and keep them strong. I know that right now there's a seed of hope, and I feel like it's really frustrating and sadmaking when people do driveby trollolols about the things some of us are working hard every day on.
posted by corb at 11:19 AM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
...that said, tonycpsu is entirely right about it being impossible for a rag tag crew to turn around the entire damn ship, and I don't think anyone should expect anything that big.
posted by corb at 11:21 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:21 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
The priorities of the modern-day GOP, everyone:
I'm not trolling, I'm simultaneously unsurprised and fucking pissed at the excuses and dodges from the people who already have the power to do it.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
@cam_joseph: A congressman (and grown man) took down a high schooler’s painting from the capitol bc he found it politicaly objectionable, w/o asking.I feel like it's really frustrating and sadmaking when people do driveby trollolols about the things some of us are working hard every day on.
@AdamSerwer: How many statues of Confederate Leaders has Rep. Hunter been moved to remove from the Capitol, I wonder? Oh.
Capitol is filled with monuments to people who fought to preserve human beings as chattel, strange that lawmakers aren't similarly outraged!
I'm not trolling, I'm simultaneously unsurprised and fucking pissed at the excuses and dodges from the people who already have the power to do it.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
and I feel like it's really frustrating and sadmaking when people do driveby trollolols about the things some of us are working hard every day on.
That wasn't at all what I intended. What I'm saying is that the Republicans in Congress, especially, seem to be letting Trump do and say whatever he wants to, so far, without any repercussion. Unless a sizable number of them start aligning with the Democrats against Trump, nothing is going to work.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
That wasn't at all what I intended. What I'm saying is that the Republicans in Congress, especially, seem to be letting Trump do and say whatever he wants to, so far, without any repercussion. Unless a sizable number of them start aligning with the Democrats against Trump, nothing is going to work.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
I feel like it's really frustrating and sadmaking when people do driveby trollolols about the things some of us are working hard every day on.
It's not trolling to point out that NeverTrumpers are just fine with taking away poor people's healthcare, or cutting taxes for the rich, or defunding Planned Parenthood, or restricting Muslims. Sorry, no cookie for you.
posted by JackFlash at 11:25 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
It's not trolling to point out that NeverTrumpers are just fine with taking away poor people's healthcare, or cutting taxes for the rich, or defunding Planned Parenthood, or restricting Muslims. Sorry, no cookie for you.
posted by JackFlash at 11:25 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
What most NeverTrumpers objected to was that Trump looked doomed to lose. When that didn't happen, that objection evaporated, as did their opposition.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:26 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:26 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
And I guess that's a matter of trust. I know some of these things are happening, because I'm involved in them or know people who are involved in them. I can't show it, and if everything remains confined to back rooms, it may never be shown. But I know that it is happening, and I find it a comfort. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
For what it's worth, I do trust that some of you are people of principle, because you stuck your necks out for real. I believe sincerely that you're on the level. I feel that way about Mefi's own Egg, and a handful of others who have risked actual hardship to buck what's happening. That takes courage, and courage inspires trust.
The rest of them... I mean, it's like you said: at the end of the day, they're still Republicans. Trump became the face of their party, and they're settling in to work with him. They're not getting their hands dirty, they're not taking real chances. They are instead taking this opportunity to push through legislation and otherwise act like this is any other day, while maybe talking about it a little.
From our perspective, there's no reason to trust them. Something something scorpions and frogs. The only thing they can do to change that is take open action and go ahead and pay for it. If they don't think this is a dire enough circumstance, then they're not actually #NeverTrump so much as #MaybeNotTrumpIfItsNotTooMuchTrouble.
posted by mordax at 11:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
For what it's worth, I do trust that some of you are people of principle, because you stuck your necks out for real. I believe sincerely that you're on the level. I feel that way about Mefi's own Egg, and a handful of others who have risked actual hardship to buck what's happening. That takes courage, and courage inspires trust.
The rest of them... I mean, it's like you said: at the end of the day, they're still Republicans. Trump became the face of their party, and they're settling in to work with him. They're not getting their hands dirty, they're not taking real chances. They are instead taking this opportunity to push through legislation and otherwise act like this is any other day, while maybe talking about it a little.
From our perspective, there's no reason to trust them. Something something scorpions and frogs. The only thing they can do to change that is take open action and go ahead and pay for it. If they don't think this is a dire enough circumstance, then they're not actually #NeverTrump so much as #MaybeNotTrumpIfItsNotTooMuchTrouble.
posted by mordax at 11:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
From Sens. McCain, Graham, and Paul, we've gotten some stern talking and some talk of voting against a cabinet appointment or two, but nothing resembling any serious effort to stop anything.
And due respect to their voices. And maybe, here and there, they or others will be useful allies against some particular bill or catastrophic endeavor or another. Good for them. But in general, yes, I think there is very little evidence to believe that A) there's any significant Republican opposition to Trump at this moment or that B) that a majority of the GOP isn't just fine with some variety of Trumpism anyway. I'm sure that's a disappointment to Republicans who are disgusted by Trump, who want and wish the party was different, but as the Dead Kennedys once said "life can sometimes be that way."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
And due respect to their voices. And maybe, here and there, they or others will be useful allies against some particular bill or catastrophic endeavor or another. Good for them. But in general, yes, I think there is very little evidence to believe that A) there's any significant Republican opposition to Trump at this moment or that B) that a majority of the GOP isn't just fine with some variety of Trumpism anyway. I'm sure that's a disappointment to Republicans who are disgusted by Trump, who want and wish the party was different, but as the Dead Kennedys once said "life can sometimes be that way."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:29 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm simultaneously unsurprised and fucking pissed at the excuses and dodges from the people who already have the power to do it.
Let me add, though, that I'm also fucking pissed at activists blithely dismissing stuff like the Obamacare repeal bill as just normal opposition when they know damn well it includes bombs like defunding PP.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Let me add, though, that I'm also fucking pissed at activists blithely dismissing stuff like the Obamacare repeal bill as just normal opposition when they know damn well it includes bombs like defunding PP.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
We'd do well to remember that the NeverTrump alternative was Ted Cruz. The only thing that's gotten the vaguest pushback has been the Russian influence shit. They're fine with everything else, and always were.
We shouldn't ever pretend they're our allies.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
We shouldn't ever pretend they're our allies.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Unrelated, but what the hell is going on in Ft. Lauderdale?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:34 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:34 AM on January 6, 2017
Ray - airport shooting, 5 dead so far, suspect in custody
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:36 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:36 AM on January 6, 2017
The sixth mass shooting of 2017. Someone opened fire in the airport. Reports of three dead, multiple injuries, suspect in custody.
posted by maxsparber at 11:36 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by maxsparber at 11:36 AM on January 6, 2017
NBC is reporting five dead and eight injured in Florida, in what seems to be a "random" shooting. Suspect in custody is a 26 year old man named Esteban Santiago.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:38 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:38 AM on January 6, 2017
We'd do well to remember that the NeverTrump alternative was Ted Cruz.
And Marco Rubio, who (like Ted Cruz) pals around with anti-LGBTQ terrorists and has what looks to be an even more extreme plan for Muslims than Trump.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
And Marco Rubio, who (like Ted Cruz) pals around with anti-LGBTQ terrorists and has what looks to be an even more extreme plan for Muslims than Trump.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trump has sent thoughts and prayers to the people of Florida, so they'll be protected from bullets for a while.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
in what seems to be a "random" shooting.
We should all hate the way we breathe out at that.
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
We should all hate the way we breathe out at that.
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
There are just like random crowds of people running across runways
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Republicans Don't Care About the Deficit, Part 543
It's almost as if none of them are actually serious about tax cuts that help 99% of Americans.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's almost as if none of them are actually serious about tax cuts that help 99% of Americans.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
What I'm saying is that the Republicans in Congress, especially, seem to be letting Trump do and say whatever he wants to, so far, without any repercussion. Unless a sizable number of them start aligning with the Democrats against Trump, nothing is going to work.
Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate it, you and the others who did. And yes, unfortunately, you and others are right in large part about the elected officials. Some see it as a problem, but do they see it as enough of a problem to risk their skin? Well, that's a different proposition. How much will they risk for how little? It's an enormous problem. How many of them will risk doing the right thing when their constituents genuinely want the wrong thing? I would be remiss if I didn't admit that even though there are many Republicans who still oppose Trump all the way, we've lost a lot of people who have managed to square it with their consciences or lie to themself and pretend they'd done so because they're so excited at having three party control.
And what will work? I wish to God I knew. I keep having these creeping feelings of dread as the weeks go on and he's set to take power. My alcohol bill has literally doubled as a percentage of our budget just to get by. I'm working on political action, but I don't know if any of it will ultimately be successful or if I'm just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't know. I really, really don't know what will work to get our country back.
Fuck, I think I'm officially too bleak to post on Metafilter. I'm going to take off to get some shit done and put some background noise and maybe whiskey with a splash of coffee, I'll rejoin you guys in a bit.
posted by corb at 11:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Thanks for clarifying, I appreciate it, you and the others who did. And yes, unfortunately, you and others are right in large part about the elected officials. Some see it as a problem, but do they see it as enough of a problem to risk their skin? Well, that's a different proposition. How much will they risk for how little? It's an enormous problem. How many of them will risk doing the right thing when their constituents genuinely want the wrong thing? I would be remiss if I didn't admit that even though there are many Republicans who still oppose Trump all the way, we've lost a lot of people who have managed to square it with their consciences or lie to themself and pretend they'd done so because they're so excited at having three party control.
And what will work? I wish to God I knew. I keep having these creeping feelings of dread as the weeks go on and he's set to take power. My alcohol bill has literally doubled as a percentage of our budget just to get by. I'm working on political action, but I don't know if any of it will ultimately be successful or if I'm just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't know. I really, really don't know what will work to get our country back.
Fuck, I think I'm officially too bleak to post on Metafilter. I'm going to take off to get some shit done and put some background noise and maybe whiskey with a splash of coffee, I'll rejoin you guys in a bit.
posted by corb at 11:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, maybe don't haphazardly liveblog a shooting in the middle of an unrelated discussion, or probably ideally at all.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
"Deficit" is only the means by which the GOP justify tax cuts for the ultra wealthy to a public who does not understand the difference between corporate and household debt.
They only care about it so much as it is a useful rhetorical device.
posted by Tevin at 11:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
They only care about it so much as it is a useful rhetorical device.
posted by Tevin at 11:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
How many statues of Confederate Leaders has Rep. Hunter been moved to remove from the Capitol, I wonder? Oh.
Junior Duncan Hunter Junior (which isn't his official name, but fuck him) is a dudebro d-bag who inherited the seat from his dad and has spent the majority of his time in politics charging personal expenses to the campaign credit card, getting caught by the FEC, and paying it back.
posted by holgate at 11:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Junior Duncan Hunter Junior (which isn't his official name, but fuck him) is a dudebro d-bag who inherited the seat from his dad and has spent the majority of his time in politics charging personal expenses to the campaign credit card, getting caught by the FEC, and paying it back.
posted by holgate at 11:50 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
[Folks, maybe don't haphazardly liveblog a shooting in the middle of an unrelated discussion, or probably ideally at all.]
I didn't mean to be morbid or derail-y. I'm viewing pretty much all breaking news these days through the lens of How-Will-Trump-React-To-This.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:53 AM on January 6, 2017
I didn't mean to be morbid or derail-y. I'm viewing pretty much all breaking news these days through the lens of How-Will-Trump-React-To-This.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:53 AM on January 6, 2017
"Deficit" is only the means by which the GOP justify tax cuts for the ultra wealthy to a public who does not understand the difference between corporate and household debt.
Nah, it's what they use to justify the other side of the equation -- shrinking the government so it's only big enough to fit into a uterus.
posted by Etrigan at 11:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Nah, it's what they use to justify the other side of the equation -- shrinking the government so it's only big enough to fit into a uterus.
posted by Etrigan at 11:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't know. I really, really don't know what will work to get our country back.
When never-trump republicans promote, support and vote for democratic candidates and are willing to actively choose a little socialism over a lot of fascism.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
When never-trump republicans promote, support and vote for democratic candidates and are willing to actively choose a little socialism over a lot of fascism.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
> Nah, it's what they use to justify the other side of the equation -- shrinking the government so it's only big enough to fit into a uterus.
Unfortunately, it's a little of column "A" and a little of column "B"!
posted by Tevin at 11:58 AM on January 6, 2017
Unfortunately, it's a little of column "A" and a little of column "B"!
posted by Tevin at 11:58 AM on January 6, 2017
I don't know. I really, really don't know what will work to get our country back.
Remember, the Democrats only lost the Electoral College by 1-2% margins in four "swing" states and they won the popular vote, despite an unprecedented attempt to influence the election by Russia and the FBI . Tweaks are needed, but all is far from lost.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:03 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Remember, the Democrats only lost the Electoral College by 1-2% margins in four "swing" states and they won the popular vote, despite an unprecedented attempt to influence the election by Russia and the FBI . Tweaks are needed, but all is far from lost.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:03 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
WikiLeaks is going to dox all reporters
We are thinking of making an online database with all "verified" twitter accounts & their family/job/financial/housing relationships.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
We are thinking of making an online database with all "verified" twitter accounts & their family/job/financial/housing relationships.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—An alarming report issued by heads of the U.S. intelligence agencies on Friday asserts that the Twitter account of President-elect Donald Trump was successfully hacked by a four-year-old child. (satire, could be real, though)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have no use for satire in this current climate.
posted by agregoli at 12:07 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 12:07 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
we're fucked. everything is fucked. i love you all
posted by localhuman at 12:07 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by localhuman at 12:07 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
The series of tweets starting with this one by Paul Krugman seems to summarize the situation we are in with respect to Russian involvement.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:12 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:12 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
That Krugman tweetstorm is built on a lot of conjecture.
posted by Tevin at 12:14 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Tevin at 12:14 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
We are living in a Kurt Vonnegut novel.
posted by drezdn at 12:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 12:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
The situation reminds me a lot of this novel, except we got there about 25 years early.
posted by Coventry at 12:17 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by Coventry at 12:17 PM on January 6, 2017
Shoot, sorry, I think a better link to the Krugman tweets might be this one. I should have started with the last one instead of the first.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:18 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:18 PM on January 6, 2017
WSJ: Donald Trump Says He Will Appoint a Cybersecurity Policy Team After Classified Briefing on Russia: “The methods, tools and tactics we use to keep America safe should not be a public discussion that will benefit those who seek to do us harm,” Mr. Trump said. “Two weeks from today I will take the oath of office and America’s safety and security will be my number one priority.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:20 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:20 PM on January 6, 2017
That Krugman tweetstorm is built on a lot of conjecture.
Out of curiousity, which parts? I mean, I think it's without question the election is tainted, even if Trump and GOP claim otherwise. And he's an authoritarian. He's already taking actions that look like the start of purges, such as asking for lists of federal employees working on certain things. And he's not even in office yet!
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Out of curiousity, which parts? I mean, I think it's without question the election is tainted, even if Trump and GOP claim otherwise. And he's an authoritarian. He's already taking actions that look like the start of purges, such as asking for lists of federal employees working on certain things. And he's not even in office yet!
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Isn't he legally just another chump until Inauguration Day?
He doesn't seem to realize it but yes he is. That is why it will be very interesting if anything comes of his request before he is elected.
posted by futz at 12:21 PM on January 6, 2017
He doesn't seem to realize it but yes he is. That is why it will be very interesting if anything comes of his request before he is elected.
posted by futz at 12:21 PM on January 6, 2017
“Two weeks from today I will take the oath of office and America’s safety and security will be my number one priority.”
I just involuntarily made an insulting jerking off motion at my screen after reading that.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
I just involuntarily made an insulting jerking off motion at my screen after reading that.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Tracking how many key positions Trump has filled so far [updated]
Everything you want to know about the Trump Cabinet confirmation hearings
Of 689 key positions requiring Senate confirmation…Two new nominees have been announced since December 25. No one's been confirmed since the new Congress started on January 3.
Awaiting announcement: 665
Nominee announced: 25
Confirmed: 0
Everything you want to know about the Trump Cabinet confirmation hearings
Confirmation hearings for President-elect Donald Trump’s Cabinet and other nominees will come fast and furious starting the second week of January. Here’s your guide to the details.The GOP's Brilliant Plan to Distract from Critical Confirmation Hearings
Not only are six major confirmation hearings now scheduled for the same day (see below)—"preventing any one nominee from dominating a news cycle," as the Washington Post put it—but Trump himself rescheduled a long-awaited press conference for that very day: January 11. And that same Wednesday also happens to be when Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) plans to begin a so-called vote-o-rama, "in which senators take dozens and dozens of votes on amendments with no clear end," Politico explains.posted by kirkaracha at 12:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
The election itself does not appear to have been tainted. The "everything that came before Election Day" was.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
“Two weeks from today I will take the oath of office and America’s safety and security will be my number one priority.”
He has defended Russia, denied interference, has unknown business interests with Russia, ran a campaign of non-stop lying, etc. ad nauseum.
He will no do what he claims; he will do the opposite.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
He has defended Russia, denied interference, has unknown business interests with Russia, ran a campaign of non-stop lying, etc. ad nauseum.
He will no do what he claims; he will do the opposite.
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
The second he takes his oath, he should be arrested for perjury.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
>Yet there is no normal political mechanism to deal with this reality. So what happens? The GOP decides to impeach to install Pence? 7/
>Mass people-power demonstrations? He orders the military to do something illegal and we have disobedience by the national security state? 8/
I mean, impeachment is the normal political mechanism. Pence is a theocratic bag of hammers but he's probably not controlled by the Kremlin. If mass protests turn out against Trump, do you honestly believe he will issue orders for the military to turn on American citizens if he doesn't have an explicit guarantee that they will carry out his orders? I can say a lot about the American military but I think we're a LONG way from them turning against the people. The police? That's a different story, but also a far smaller force.
There's a possibility that Trump uses his own agents to intimidate opposition but...I don't see it because I think he very much wants to do the bullying himself. Has he outsourced his bullying before? I think the pleasure for him is being the person making his enemy squirm. I'm not ruling it out, but I think a lot of the "oh no" in these tweets are from these points that don't really hold up, for me.
It breaks down for me on those points.
posted by Tevin at 12:27 PM on January 6, 2017
>Mass people-power demonstrations? He orders the military to do something illegal and we have disobedience by the national security state? 8/
I mean, impeachment is the normal political mechanism. Pence is a theocratic bag of hammers but he's probably not controlled by the Kremlin. If mass protests turn out against Trump, do you honestly believe he will issue orders for the military to turn on American citizens if he doesn't have an explicit guarantee that they will carry out his orders? I can say a lot about the American military but I think we're a LONG way from them turning against the people. The police? That's a different story, but also a far smaller force.
There's a possibility that Trump uses his own agents to intimidate opposition but...I don't see it because I think he very much wants to do the bullying himself. Has he outsourced his bullying before? I think the pleasure for him is being the person making his enemy squirm. I'm not ruling it out, but I think a lot of the "oh no" in these tweets are from these points that don't really hold up, for me.
It breaks down for me on those points.
posted by Tevin at 12:27 PM on January 6, 2017
There has got to be a way to take the GOP's blitzkrieg approach to 1/11 and turn it on itself.
It looks like these articles could be the groundwork for turning it into one big story, instead of a million little stories. That might be a good approach.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 12:28 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
It looks like these articles could be the groundwork for turning it into one big story, instead of a million little stories. That might be a good approach.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 12:28 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
“The methods, tools and tactics we use to keep America safe should not be a public discussion that will benefit those who seek to do us harm,” Mr. Trump said. “Two weeks from today I will take the oath of office and America’s safety and security will be my number one priority.”
Those do not sound like words that trump would actually use.
posted by futz at 12:28 PM on January 6, 2017 [32 favorites]
Those do not sound like words that trump would actually use.
posted by futz at 12:28 PM on January 6, 2017 [32 favorites]
If mass protests turn out against Trump, do you honestly believe he will issue orders for the military to turn on American citizens if he doesn't have an explicit guarantee that they will carry out his orders?
Of course. I mean he might not but if he did would you really be surprised?
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Of course. I mean he might not but if he did would you really be surprised?
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
The subhead of the WSJ headline is "President-elect acknowledges for the first time that ‘Russia, China, other countries, outside groups and people’ do try to hack into U.S. systems."
That isn't exactly the acknowledgement we're looking for here.
posted by diogenes at 12:31 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
That isn't exactly the acknowledgement we're looking for here.
posted by diogenes at 12:31 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
> Of course. I mean he might not but if he did would you really be surprised?
I would, because if there is one thing Trump cannot bear it is looking weak. How will he project power and strength if the military refuses his orders?
posted by Tevin at 12:37 PM on January 6, 2017
I would, because if there is one thing Trump cannot bear it is looking weak. How will he project power and strength if the military refuses his orders?
posted by Tevin at 12:37 PM on January 6, 2017
All he conceded in his statement is the fact that hacking exists.
posted by diogenes at 12:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by diogenes at 12:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I mean, impeachment is the normal political mechanism. Pence is a theocratic bag of hammers but he's probably not controlled by the Kremlin. If mass protests turn out against Trump, do you honestly believe he will issue orders for the military to turn on American citizens if he doesn't have an explicit guarantee that they will carry out his orders? I can say a lot about the American military but I think we're a LONG way from them turning against the people.
Yes he would. I have no doubt that he would. And he will do so thinking that they will listen to him because he is PRESIDENT. Whether those orders actually make it from order to action is a question. I'm fairly certain that Donald is going to sit in that office and 'order' a whole lot of things that are ridiculous but won't actually happen or no happen in the way he thinks they should. He's going to be Presidenting in an illusion of his own making with the people around him (with their varying agendas) using, abusing, placating, worshipping him or whatever in maintenance of that illusion.
Naricssists live in the illusion of what their mind creates for them. Donald is gonna be big man, the biggest man ever and everyone must listen to the greatest man alive or else. This is what he does and will believe.
posted by Jalliah at 12:42 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
How will he project power and strength if the military refuses his orders?
1) First off I think it's unsafe to assume that the military will refuse his orders.
2) If he does issue the military orders and they refuse, it would likely not be public and be behind closed doors and there's a good chance we'd never know the facts.
3) We'd basically be in military coup territory then so whether he looks weak or not is sorta immaterial.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
1) First off I think it's unsafe to assume that the military will refuse his orders.
2) If he does issue the military orders and they refuse, it would likely not be public and be behind closed doors and there's a good chance we'd never know the facts.
3) We'd basically be in military coup territory then so whether he looks weak or not is sorta immaterial.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Of 689 key positions requiring Senate confirmation…
If Schumer had half a backbone (Ha, he doesn't) Dems would slow walk every last one of the 700some confirmations, filibustering and denying unanimous consent and demanding a roll call vote on every undersecretary and every else for that matter, down to renaming a post office. They can and should shut the Senate down.
Trumpublicans have no legitimacy much less mandate, and total resistance is required. But you know, Chuck needs to get on CNN too. Priorities.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
If Schumer had half a backbone (Ha, he doesn't) Dems would slow walk every last one of the 700some confirmations, filibustering and denying unanimous consent and demanding a roll call vote on every undersecretary and every else for that matter, down to renaming a post office. They can and should shut the Senate down.
Trumpublicans have no legitimacy much less mandate, and total resistance is required. But you know, Chuck needs to get on CNN too. Priorities.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
DC Mayor Says Arresting Pot Smokers At Inauguration Won’t Be A Priority
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I would, because if there is one thing Trump cannot bear it is looking weak. How will he project power and strength if the military refuses his orders?
You're fired!
And he'd ask other military to make sure the bad military is fired.
And he would also tweet a whole lot of nasty things.
His modus operandi when someone doesn't do what he wants is to take them out. That's how you exert power.
posted by Jalliah at 12:49 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
You're fired!
And he'd ask other military to make sure the bad military is fired.
And he would also tweet a whole lot of nasty things.
His modus operandi when someone doesn't do what he wants is to take them out. That's how you exert power.
posted by Jalliah at 12:49 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
This just in: Declassified Intelligence Community Assessment of Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent U.S. Elections
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:49 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 12:49 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Schumer cannot shut the Senate down. The Republicans will just vote on their own.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:50 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:50 PM on January 6, 2017
Here is the declassified report. (PDF)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:51 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:51 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Two weeks from today I will take the oath of office and America’s safety and security will be my number one priority
America doesn't even make Pence's top 3:
I'm a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican, in that order.Why, yes, it does fucking enrage me that that passes without comment but a Democrat saying, "I'm a Muslim, a liberal, and a Democrat, in that order" would be a neverending shitstorm.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
Schumer cannot shut the Senate down. The Republicans will just vote on their own.
They can't stop the voting, no. But they can filibuster everything that can be filibustered, deny unanimous consent to a cloture vote making everything take as long as possible, refuse consent for voice votes. They can make confirming Trump's government take a whole year.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
They can't stop the voting, no. But they can filibuster everything that can be filibustered, deny unanimous consent to a cloture vote making everything take as long as possible, refuse consent for voice votes. They can make confirming Trump's government take a whole year.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Schumer cannot shut the Senate down. The Republicans will just vote on their own.
T.D. isn't talking about denying quorum. He's talking about the Senate equivalent of work to rule. Most of the boilerplate shit in actually conducting the Senate gets skipped in the interests of expediency. Denying every unanimous consent ruling and forcing a vote every time would gum up the works.
posted by Talez at 12:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
T.D. isn't talking about denying quorum. He's talking about the Senate equivalent of work to rule. Most of the boilerplate shit in actually conducting the Senate gets skipped in the interests of expediency. Denying every unanimous consent ruling and forcing a vote every time would gum up the works.
posted by Talez at 12:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Has he outsourced his bullying before?
Yep. Tons. He maintains plausible deniability about most of it, but you should probably take a look at him actually telling people he'll pay their legal fees if they knock around protestors at his rallies. Also, he incites armies of trolls online. Just for starters, there was the whole Carrier business. Oh, and we've talked a lot about David Frum.
Trump's all about violent incitement. It's not a maybe, it's not a possibility, it's what's going on presently.
posted by mordax at 12:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Yep. Tons. He maintains plausible deniability about most of it, but you should probably take a look at him actually telling people he'll pay their legal fees if they knock around protestors at his rallies. Also, he incites armies of trolls online. Just for starters, there was the whole Carrier business. Oh, and we've talked a lot about David Frum.
Trump's all about violent incitement. It's not a maybe, it's not a possibility, it's what's going on presently.
posted by mordax at 12:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm gonna read that declassified report but can I first just... The Office of the Director of National Intelligence has a Tumblr? What?
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:54 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:54 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
In what I'm sure everyone here will find totally shocking, WikiLeaks' first target was a case of mistaken identity.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
I'm gonna read that declassified report but can I first just... The Office of the Director of National Intelligence has a Tumblr? What?
Well considering the incoming President and leader of the free world is now Governing by Twitter.....
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Doesn't seem that weird.
posted by Jalliah at 12:57 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well considering the incoming President and leader of the free world is now Governing by Twitter.....
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Doesn't seem that weird.
posted by Jalliah at 12:57 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Meet Charlie Brotman, Voice of Every Presidential Inauguration Since Truman, Dumped by Trump
Beginning with Harry Truman’s inaugural, in 1949, Charlie Brotman has been at the microphone as the official voice of every presidential parade.posted by kirkaracha at 1:08 PM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
...
But his lengthy career came to an abrupt halt when he received a thanks-but-no-thanks email from the Presidential Inaugural Committee informing him that he had been replaced.
Call me easily duped, but I am 100% convinced Trump would not have won the election without this interference. I know the CIA and other agencies are often vilified here, and I know they are not always the good guys, but I tell you, I am thankful for them, and I am especially thankful they are standing their ground against Trump.
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:10 PM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:10 PM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
But his lengthy career came to an abrupt halt when he received a thanks-but-no-thanks email from the Presidential Inaugural Committee informing him that he had been replaced.
1000 internet fun bucks says the replacement is Michael Buffer.
posted by PenDevil at 1:11 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
1000 internet fun bucks says the replacement is Michael Buffer.
posted by PenDevil at 1:11 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Here are some quick copy-pastes from the report that I found interesting (emphasis mine):
- We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.
- We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.
- We assess that influence campaigns are approved at the highest levels of the Russian Government—particularly those that would be politically sensitive.
- We assess with high confidence that the GRU relayed material it acquired from the DNC and senior Democratic officials to WikiLeaks. Moscow most likely chose WikiLeaks because of its selfproclaimed reputation for authenticity. Disclosures through WikiLeaks did not contain any evident forgeries.
- Russia collected on some Republican-affiliated targets but did not conduct a comparable disclosure campaign.
- The likely financier of the so-called Internet Research Agency of professional trolls located in Saint Petersburg is a close Putin ally with ties to Russian intelligence. A journalist who is a leading expert on the Internet Research Agency claimed that some social media accounts that appear to be tied to Russia’s professional trolls—because they previously were devoted to supporting Russian actions in Ukraine—started to advocate for President-elect Trump as early as December 2015
- We assess Moscow will apply lessons learned from its campaign aimed at the US presidential election to future influence efforts in the United States and worldwide, including against US allies and their election processes. We assess the Russian intelligence services would have seen their election influence campaign as at least a qualified success because of their perceived ability to impact public discussion.
My bet is Mr Brotman's replacement will be a current WWE ring announcer, rather than Mr Buffer.
posted by notyou at 1:14 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by notyou at 1:14 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm a little surprised that the report is so clear about the fact that Russia was working to hurt Clinton and help Trump. I thought it would be limited to establishing that it was Russia.
I'm very interested to see how Trump proceeds from here. The statement that was released earlier clearly wasn't written by him. I don't think his ego will allow him to acknowledge that Russia helped him.
posted by diogenes at 1:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm very interested to see how Trump proceeds from here. The statement that was released earlier clearly wasn't written by him. I don't think his ego will allow him to acknowledge that Russia helped him.
posted by diogenes at 1:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
This just in: Declassified Intelligence Community Assessment of Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent U.S. Elections
Save a hard copy, because this will vanish shortly after 1/20
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:16 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Save a hard copy, because this will vanish shortly after 1/20
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:16 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/01/women-to-run-from-nyc-to-dc-to-raise-money-for-planned-parenthood.html
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:16 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:16 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Save a hard copy, because this will vanish shortly after 1/20.
At least there's one way that reality is slightly better than Orwell's vision. The internet makes the memory hole pretty much impossible.
posted by diogenes at 1:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
At least there's one way that reality is slightly better than Orwell's vision. The internet makes the memory hole pretty much impossible.
posted by diogenes at 1:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Okay, I've read/skimmed the report. I'm a little disappointed there's not more meat on the bones. There's a lot of evidence already in the public domain which isn't cited there. (CrowdStrike recognized the specific software tools from attacks on other Russian targets; evidence of a Cyrillic keyboard used in the metadata, the suspiciously not-Romanian behavior of "Guccifer 2.0, malware which doesn't "call home" on Russian holidays, and bitly addresses were created from the same account as attacks on other Russian targets.
There's no reason to keep this stuff classified since it is already out there, and no reason not to include it in the report as a part of establishing how we know it's was Russia that did this. Instead it's all just assertions "we assess" this and that, without even citing the publically-available evidence. My conservative friends are not going to be convinced. (Though I can of course still share that evidence from other sources, it would've been nice to have a one-stop reference).
The stuff about RT America is pretty interesting, though. I had no idea about their huge YouTube following.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:24 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's no reason to keep this stuff classified since it is already out there, and no reason not to include it in the report as a part of establishing how we know it's was Russia that did this. Instead it's all just assertions "we assess" this and that, without even citing the publically-available evidence. My conservative friends are not going to be convinced. (Though I can of course still share that evidence from other sources, it would've been nice to have a one-stop reference).
The stuff about RT America is pretty interesting, though. I had no idea about their huge YouTube following.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:24 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Save a hard copy, because this will vanish shortly after 1/20
Also, Archive.org will not grab it due to their robots.txt
posted by indubitable at 1:27 PM on January 6, 2017
Also, Archive.org will not grab it due to their robots.txt
posted by indubitable at 1:27 PM on January 6, 2017
There's a lot of evidence already in the public domain which isn't cited there.
Yeah, the lack of technical details is frustrating. I'm assuming they are being overly careful with what they consider unclassified. But it does seem to leave the door open for criticism of the strength of the evidence.
posted by diogenes at 1:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the lack of technical details is frustrating. I'm assuming they are being overly careful with what they consider unclassified. But it does seem to leave the door open for criticism of the strength of the evidence.
posted by diogenes at 1:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
OnceUponATime: Yeah, I don't know why they didn't add more. Maybe they are less certain about those items? Maybe they aimed for a more general/lay audience? It's unfortunate.
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
It just opens the door for dishonest shitheels to keep being dishonest shitheels.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
You want to keep details classified that could compromise ongoing efforts or operatives. Although how you do that when the C-i-C is pally with your number one enemy's C-i-C is an interesting question.
posted by Devonian at 1:36 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 1:36 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's no reason to keep this stuff classified since it is already out there, and no reason not to include it in the report as a part of establishing how we know it's was Russia that did this. Instead it's all just assertions "we assess" this and that, without even citing the publically-available evidence. My conservative friends are not going to be convinced. (Though I can of course still share that evidence from other sources, it would've been nice to have a one-stop reference).
What you're after is not likely to happen at this stage. This report and what is and isn't in it is strategic and part of the larger battle that is now occurring. Since this isn't a movie where jane public gets to see the actual inside story we get to sit around and speculate about what's actually happening.
posted by Jalliah at 1:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
What you're after is not likely to happen at this stage. This report and what is and isn't in it is strategic and part of the larger battle that is now occurring. Since this isn't a movie where jane public gets to see the actual inside story we get to sit around and speculate about what's actually happening.
posted by Jalliah at 1:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
I did save the .pdf document from roomthreeseveteen's link. It's only a 25 page document, but if we want to access it for some reason and it disappears, the more people that save it, the better.
posted by Silverstone at 1:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Silverstone at 1:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Greenwald already working to disparage the report. See also his Twitter stream right now.
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Greenwald is stating the same things that people in this threads are already complaining about.
posted by beerperson at 1:40 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 1:40 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Was the report with technical details that was released last week also from the DNI? If so, maybe the idea is that one report has technical details, and another report has the conclusions.
posted by diogenes at 1:42 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by diogenes at 1:42 PM on January 6, 2017
This report and what is and isn't in it is strategic and part of the larger battle that is now occurring.
What is the strategy? I don't see how this repeated over-promising and under-delivering serves sane objectives.
posted by Coventry at 1:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
What is the strategy? I don't see how this repeated over-promising and under-delivering serves sane objectives.
posted by Coventry at 1:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Russia collected on some Republican-affiliated targets but did not conduct a comparable disclosure campaign.
In recent statements and tweets, including the official statement released, DJT claims the RNC was not hacked because it was secure unlike the DNC and Podesta's private email. There is this inference that the weak DNC brought the hacking on itself while the strong RNC was saved due to its --I don't know-- greatness or something.
Now wikileaks is gonna dox all reporters
Actually the statement reads: We are thinking of making an online database with all "verified" twitter accounts & their family/job/financial/housing relationships.
Lots of people have verified accounts: celebrities, authors, politicians, activists. What people on twitter are stressing out about is the "housing relationships."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
In recent statements and tweets, including the official statement released, DJT claims the RNC was not hacked because it was secure unlike the DNC and Podesta's private email. There is this inference that the weak DNC brought the hacking on itself while the strong RNC was saved due to its --I don't know-- greatness or something.
Now wikileaks is gonna dox all reporters
Actually the statement reads: We are thinking of making an online database with all "verified" twitter accounts & their family/job/financial/housing relationships.
Lots of people have verified accounts: celebrities, authors, politicians, activists. What people on twitter are stressing out about is the "housing relationships."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Don't know if it's true, but it rings true: someone in my Twitter feed said that the places where the report says "CIA & FBI have high confidence, NSA has moderate confidence" are cases where the judgement was based on spying capabilities, not technical capabilities. Interesting if true – a way to read a little bit between the lines.
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:48 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:48 PM on January 6, 2017
Yeah, it was the DNI that released the Joint Analysis Report with the technical details. So it isn't true that they haven't provided those details. Although a reference to that report would have been helpful.
posted by diogenes at 1:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by diogenes at 1:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
how you do that when the C-i-C is pally with your number one enemy's C-i-C is an interesting question.
extreme sanction.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
extreme sanction.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The 'safety' and 'security' intended is the kind we'll all be subject to under the restored Domestic Security Advisor and Homeland Security Council, with the executive's renewed interest in direct management of the domestic security apparatus.
Feel safer yet? Isn't freedom great?
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:49 PM on January 6, 2017
Feel safer yet? Isn't freedom great?
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:49 PM on January 6, 2017
We assess Moscow will apply lessons learned from its campaign aimed at the US presidential election to future influence efforts in the United States and worldwide, including against US allies and their election processes. We assess the Russian intelligence services would have seen their election influence campaign as at least a qualified success because of their perceived ability to impact public discussion.Worryingly, if it's so easy to influence a Presidential election, how much easier and cheaper might it be to influence Congressional elections, or State and even local elections?
Krugman, I think, gets it mostly right. I'm not sure we—even Trump's opponents—have begun to realize just how deep is the shit we're sailing in. Or among those who do, how to sail out of it.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:52 PM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
What is the strategy? I don't see how this repeated over-promising and under-delivering serves sane objectives.
That's the point. You or I don't know and we don't get to know, we're just part of it somehow. Speculate away. It's fun and all but as someone who in a previous life has had some contact with for sake of brevity 'the intelligence world' there will be a whole lot going on that you or I don't know and if we're ever going to know it won't be until it's done and over with.
posted by Jalliah at 1:52 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's the point. You or I don't know and we don't get to know, we're just part of it somehow. Speculate away. It's fun and all but as someone who in a previous life has had some contact with for sake of brevity 'the intelligence world' there will be a whole lot going on that you or I don't know and if we're ever going to know it won't be until it's done and over with.
posted by Jalliah at 1:52 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
This NY Times article from way back in July lists most of the evidence that I wish had been cited in the new report (evidence that is understandable to non computer experts.) I think I'll include a link to it when I share the link to the report.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:53 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:53 PM on January 6, 2017
I think Greenwald is downplaying the Russian connection because his entire schtick is based on Neoliberalism being solely responsible for the fuckedupness of the world (which it has contributed to of course) and that it and it alone is responsible for it's own demise.
posted by PenDevil at 1:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 1:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
@VincenteFoxQue: TRUMP, when will you understand that I am not paying for that fucken wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it.
I'm sure ambassadors all over the world are thrilled with this new role of twitter.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:58 PM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
I'm sure ambassadors all over the world are thrilled with this new role of twitter.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:58 PM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
@VincenteFoxQue: TRUMP, when will you understand that I am not paying for that fucken wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it.
To be clear, this man is a former president, right?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:02 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
To be clear, this man is a former president, right?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:02 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Greenwald actually doesn't downplay the Russian connection:
Nobody has ever opposed investigations to determine if Russia hacked these emails, nor has anyone ever denied the possibility that Russia did that. The source of contention has been quite simple: No accusations should be accepted until there is actual convincing evidence to substantiate those accusations.posted by Coventry at 2:02 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Pretending that there's no evidence" = "downplaying"
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
...yea, that's downplaying. There is evidence. It's been released.
Greenwald has his own anti-US establishment agenda, which is parallel with that of Russia and the alt-Right. He's been happy to lend support and cover of legitimacy throughout the entire information warfare campaign.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Greenwald has his own anti-US establishment agenda, which is parallel with that of Russia and the alt-Right. He's been happy to lend support and cover of legitimacy throughout the entire information warfare campaign.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
'Actual convincing evidence' being basically a confession to treason and/or acts of war in this case, as opposed to the standard of proof applicable to, oh, I don't know, the nefarious speaking tours of Hillary Clinton.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:06 PM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:06 PM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
To be clear, this man is a former president, right?
Yes. I was confused by his use of the word "I" in "I am not paying." L'état, c'est moi?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:07 PM on January 6, 2017
Yes. I was confused by his use of the word "I" in "I am not paying." L'état, c'est moi?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:07 PM on January 6, 2017
GLEGRINOF (Glenn Greenwald Is Not Our Friend)
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:09 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:09 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
I am not paying.
Maybe just a first person singular/plural conjugation error? Or maybe meant to mirror the use of 'taxpayer'?
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:10 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe just a first person singular/plural conjugation error? Or maybe meant to mirror the use of 'taxpayer'?
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:10 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ahhh that makes sense, snuffleupagus.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:13 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:13 PM on January 6, 2017
GLEGRINOF
thanks, I needed a wizard name for my D&D game!
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
thanks, I needed a wizard name for my D&D game!
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
GLEGRINOF
thanks, I needed a wizard name for my D&D game!
Don't be silly, it's clearly a Dwarven name: Glerginof Axe-Grinder, of the Short Sighted Clan.
posted by mordax at 2:16 PM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
thanks, I needed a wizard name for my D&D game!
Don't be silly, it's clearly a Dwarven name: Glerginof Axe-Grinder, of the Short Sighted Clan.
posted by mordax at 2:16 PM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Glerginof Axe-Grinder, of the Short Sighted Clan.
Please. Of Clan Short Sighted.
/geekpedant
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:18 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Please. Of Clan Short Sighted.
/geekpedant
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:18 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Maybe just a first person singular/plural conjugation error?
Probably not, Vicente Fox has demonstrated better command of the English language than our president-elect.
posted by peeedro at 2:19 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Probably not, Vicente Fox has demonstrated better command of the English language than our president-elect.
posted by peeedro at 2:19 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
McCain declares Russia has committed an act of war.
posted by StrawberryPie at 2:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 2:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Greenwald is (understandably) bitter about his previous treatment and isn't terribly interested in the health of the US government.
Or the impacts this will have on marginalized people, PoC, LGTBQ folks, or anyone else domestically. For that alone he's earned my contempt.
McCain declares Russia has committed an act of war.
Oh goodie, escalation is definitely what we need now.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:27 PM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
Or the impacts this will have on marginalized people, PoC, LGTBQ folks, or anyone else domestically. For that alone he's earned my contempt.
McCain declares Russia has committed an act of war.
Oh goodie, escalation is definitely what we need now.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:27 PM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
How could we possibly go to war against Russia? DJT would never allow it.....unless someone convinced him that this would wipe out his Russian debts.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I just had an amusing thought; if Clinton had won, right now the Republicans would be saying that her win wasn't really legitimate because obvious Russian interference meant that the whole election was compromised
tee hee
oh tee hee hee
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
tee hee
oh tee hee hee
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
Greenwald: "Every time IC repackages its same assertions in a new form, media acts like it's been proven, even though it - again - includes no evidence:"
posted by StrawberryPie at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by StrawberryPie at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Amazing how much McCain started caring when it's his accounts getting hacked.
posted by Yowser at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Yowser at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Probably not, Vicente Fox has demonstrated better command of the English language than our president-elect.
True, you have to conjugate before you can make conjugation errors. Probably it was 'I (a Mexican taxpayer).'
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
True, you have to conjugate before you can make conjugation errors. Probably it was 'I (a Mexican taxpayer).'
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh goodie, escalation is definitely what we need now.
posted by Existential Dread
Eponyterrible?
posted by diogenes at 2:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Existential Dread
Eponyterrible?
posted by diogenes at 2:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
It seems more likely to me that calling it an "act of war" is towards framing Trump's response as treason, not escalating.
posted by tel3path at 2:31 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 2:31 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
McCain declares Russia has committed an act of war.
Added McCain: "I like Presidents who don't commit treason."
[fake]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:31 PM on January 6, 2017 [18 favorites]
Added McCain: "I like Presidents who don't commit treason."
[fake]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:31 PM on January 6, 2017 [18 favorites]
ETA: McCain doesn't like Trump and he doesn't like war.
posted by tel3path at 2:32 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by tel3path at 2:32 PM on January 6, 2017
McCain declares Russia has committed an act of war.
Would that he had been that strident when Donny was calling him a loser.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Would that he had been that strident when Donny was calling him a loser.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Amazing how much McCain started caring when it's his accounts getting hacked.
My thought is that he's someone who has been around for a very long time, has lots of contacts and has found out how bad the scoop actually is, and how far and to who the tentacles now reach.
posted by Jalliah at 2:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
My thought is that he's someone who has been around for a very long time, has lots of contacts and has found out how bad the scoop actually is, and how far and to who the tentacles now reach.
posted by Jalliah at 2:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
It seems more likely to me that calling it an "act of war" is towards framing Trump's response as treason.
Added McCain: "I like Presidents who don't commit treason."
Oh man, that would be amazing.
posted by diogenes at 2:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Added McCain: "I like Presidents who don't commit treason."
Oh man, that would be amazing.
posted by diogenes at 2:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Re: Ft. Lauderdale Gov. Scott says he reached out to Pres.-Elect Trump and VP-Elect Pence for assistance but has not spoken to Pres. Obama
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:39 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:39 PM on January 6, 2017
Obama who?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:41 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:41 PM on January 6, 2017
Gov. Scott says he reached out to Pres.-Elect Trump and VP-Elect Pence for assistance but has not spoken to Pres. Obama.
Fuck you, you asshole.
posted by StrawberryPie at 2:42 PM on January 6, 2017 [34 favorites]
Fuck you, you asshole.
posted by StrawberryPie at 2:42 PM on January 6, 2017 [34 favorites]
Re: Ft. Lauderdale Gov. Scott says he reached out to Pres.-Elect Trump and VP-Elect Pence for assistance but has not spoken to Pres. Obama
Maybe he's hoping they can come down and hand out some playdough to the families of the survivors.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:43 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Maybe he's hoping they can come down and hand out some playdough to the families of the survivors.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:43 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
I'm thinking it's because Mar-a-Lago IS a lot closer than the White House.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:45 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:45 PM on January 6, 2017
...and it'll soon be the only place in Florida with people working for the President making more than $1/day.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:46 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:46 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
From the report:
Putin has had many positive experiences working with Western political leaders whose business interests made them more disposed to deal with Russia, such as former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.
Seems to imply that the IC thinks Putin can use Trump's business interests to corrupt him.
posted by chris24 at 2:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Putin has had many positive experiences working with Western political leaders whose business interests made them more disposed to deal with Russia, such as former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.
Seems to imply that the IC thinks Putin can use Trump's business interests to corrupt him.
posted by chris24 at 2:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Re: Ft. Lauderdale Gov. Scott says he reached out to Pres.-Elect Trump and VP-Elect Pence for assistance but has not spoken to Pres. Obama
@jeffzeleny: "It's no time to be political," @FLGovScott says after noting that he called Pence and Trump, not Obama in the wake of FLL shooting.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
@jeffzeleny: "It's no time to be political," @FLGovScott says after noting that he called Pence and Trump, not Obama in the wake of FLL shooting.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Its clearly also no time for effective governing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [22 favorites]
Seems to imply that the IC thinks Putin can use Trump's business interests to corrupt him.
If by "the IC", you mean fucking everyone.
posted by Etrigan at 3:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
If by "the IC", you mean fucking everyone.
posted by Etrigan at 3:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Seems to imply that Putin thinks he can use Trump's business interests to corrupt him.
Trump has used his business interests to corrupt government officials, foreign and domestic, for decades...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:07 PM on January 6, 2017
Trump has used his business interests to corrupt government officials, foreign and domestic, for decades...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:07 PM on January 6, 2017
If by "the IC", you mean fucking everyone.
Oh I agree it's obvious. It's just amazing to hear the CIA basically say the incoming president is probably a corrupt traitor.
posted by chris24 at 3:17 PM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Oh I agree it's obvious. It's just amazing to hear the CIA basically say the incoming president is probably a corrupt traitor.
posted by chris24 at 3:17 PM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
"corrupt traitor", "Washington outsider"... potayto, potahto...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's just amazing to hear the CIA basically say the incoming president is probably a corrupt traitor.
And Republicans in Congress collectively shrug and say, "at least we'll get tax cuts and to kick the poors. Oh, and Jim Crow coming back so we'll never again have to face free elections!"
NeverTrump!
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
And Republicans in Congress collectively shrug and say, "at least we'll get tax cuts and to kick the poors. Oh, and Jim Crow coming back so we'll never again have to face free elections!"
NeverTrump!
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
...and when they woke up the next morning, the hashtag read "#evertrump" and many of them couldn't remember there was ever an "n" in the tag to begin with...
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
Didn't Rumsfeld say "you go to war with the army you have"?
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:27 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:27 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again: but already it was impossible to say which was which."
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
you know, the #nevertrumpers did try. I don't grok their world view in like three out of five cases, but I kind of hate that the folks who got hate mongered at the RNC are being used as a punching bag.
That being said, I am fine with noting that in all likelihood, Senator Cruz is in all likelihood a skin suit filled with maggots and maggot egglings.
It's nighttime in America. Angrycat scowls at the computer and goes back to working on her vagina dentata women's march wheelchair hubcaps
posted by angrycat at 3:58 PM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
That being said, I am fine with noting that in all likelihood, Senator Cruz is in all likelihood a skin suit filled with maggots and maggot egglings.
It's nighttime in America. Angrycat scowls at the computer and goes back to working on her vagina dentata women's march wheelchair hubcaps
posted by angrycat at 3:58 PM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
Vox interviews President Obama on the future of Obamacare (transcript)
From the interview, Obama challenges GOP to offer a “demonstrably better” health plan. It sounds simple. It isn’t.
From the interview, Obama challenges GOP to offer a “demonstrably better” health plan. It sounds simple. It isn’t.
I am saying to every Republican right now, if you in fact can put a plan together that is demonstrably better than what Obamacare is doing, I will publicly support repealing Obamacare and replacing it with your plan. But I want to see it first.posted by kirkaracha at 4:08 PM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
After a lifetime of hearing why it is a bad idea for even the President to fuck with the CIA, I find it hard to believe that the spooks aren't laying the groundwork for a whole hidden secondary spy network out of view of the Trump so that they can continue operations. After all spooks are gonna spook, and Trump has no subtlety at all so they see him coming like a gorilla down the carnival midway. And he apparently has no concept of physical security at all. That has to be of interest to a lot of people.
That said, it's a very SAD day when I find myself thinking maybe a secretive, unaccountable, and shady organization like the CIA might be one of our hopes for salvation.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:12 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
That said, it's a very SAD day when I find myself thinking maybe a secretive, unaccountable, and shady organization like the CIA might be one of our hopes for salvation.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:12 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
That said, it's a very SAD day when I find myself thinking maybe a secretive, unaccountable, and shady organization like the CIA might be one of our hopes for salvation.
Maybe in a few years we'll have completed the "Putin is to the KGB what [blank] is to the CIA" syllogism.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe in a few years we'll have completed the "Putin is to the KGB what [blank] is to the CIA" syllogism.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:15 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Possibly interesting take on the reactions to IC report by Susan Hennessey from the Brookings Institute. (Scroll up to see the beginning of her tweetstorm.) Not necessarily agreeing, just reporting.
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by StrawberryPie at 4:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I used to think the CIA was all Jack Ryan cool, but then Bush Sr. got elected after running it, and could only hold it together for one term. And then I realized, they're just like the post office, only with satellites and spyplanes. And (now) drones.
posted by valkane at 4:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by valkane at 4:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's true, I'm not your friend.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [41 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [41 favorites]
$5 well spent.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:30 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
check out the #PaulRyanSoScared trending on twitter.
posted by angrycat at 4:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 4:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
That being said, I am fine with noting that in all likelihood, Senator Cruz is in all likelihood a skin suit filled with maggots and maggot egglings.
Maggots have important if niche medical uses. Please don't disparage maggots in this way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Maggots have important if niche medical uses. Please don't disparage maggots in this way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Possibly interesting take on the reactions to IC report
Maybe the big reveal comes on Monday, when the report was supposed to be released.
posted by Coventry at 4:40 PM on January 6, 2017
Maybe the big reveal comes on Monday, when the report was supposed to be released.
posted by Coventry at 4:40 PM on January 6, 2017
Jerry, it's the Pig-Man!
posted by octobersurprise at 4:43 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 4:43 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Vicente Fox still spitting fire.
@VicenteFoxQue
Sr Trump,the intelligence report is devastating.Losing election by more than 3M votes and in addition this.Are you a legitimate president?
posted by chris24 at 5:17 PM on January 6, 2017 [50 favorites]
@VicenteFoxQue
Sr Trump,the intelligence report is devastating.Losing election by more than 3M votes and in addition this.Are you a legitimate president?
posted by chris24 at 5:17 PM on January 6, 2017 [50 favorites]
Possibly interesting take on the reactions to IC report by Susan Hennessey from the Brookings Institute. (Scroll up to see the beginning of her tweetstorm.)
It is interesting, but I hope that five years from now we're looking back on the tweetstorm format and having a good laugh that it ever existed.
posted by diogenes at 5:18 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
It is interesting, but I hope that five years from now we're looking back on the tweetstorm format and having a good laugh that it ever existed.
posted by diogenes at 5:18 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
LOL this report's a big ol' 1/2 lb. juicy NOTHINGBURGER. The technical stuff from the previous report was garbage. But yeah, RT totally did say a lot of mean stuff about Hillary! Got 'em good there. Putin should have the FSB put out a report on all the mean shit WaPo writes about him.
Read some history about CIA coups, even if you don't like your rulers, you still don't want a CIA coup. CIA is bad fuckin' news.
Keep in mind by my count there's been two instances of outright deception already caught out on the Russian matter:
Anecdotally, I'm surprised how many people, like lesser-of-two-evil Hillary voters, not Trump fans, IRL have gone the other way and said to me they're convinced it wasn't Putin. (I been like, "It's possible the gov't doesn't have a clue, lies and says they know it's Putin, but it actually is Putin too.") Such is the trust in the government and the journalists these days...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Read some history about CIA coups, even if you don't like your rulers, you still don't want a CIA coup. CIA is bad fuckin' news.
Keep in mind by my count there's been two instances of outright deception already caught out on the Russian matter:
- Slate story, apparently shopped around to several outlets by someone (Hillary campaign? they certainly jumped in with a press release), trying to sell a Trump subcontractor's e-mail server as a stealthy channel to Putin when it was hocking deals on Trump Hotels room rates to Russian businesspeople.
- WaPo story about Russians in the electric grid, which turned out to be a laptop not on the grid, which turned out to be only flagged for connecting to a Yahoo IP that was in the garbage technical data. But the "anonymous US officials" that WaPo loves so much were very eager to sell that as Putin threatening our precious electricity. ("Anonymous US officials" means your mouth is being shat in.)
Anecdotally, I'm surprised how many people, like lesser-of-two-evil Hillary voters, not Trump fans, IRL have gone the other way and said to me they're convinced it wasn't Putin. (I been like, "It's possible the gov't doesn't have a clue, lies and says they know it's Putin, but it actually is Putin too.") Such is the trust in the government and the journalists these days...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 5:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
is that u donnie?
posted by octobersurprise at 5:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 5:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
i thought it was glenn.
posted by futz at 5:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by futz at 5:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
don't make me summon Glegrinof again now
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Gov. Scott says he reached out to Pres.-Elect Trump and VP-Elect Pence for assistance but has not spoken to Pres. Obama.
It's assholes all the way down.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:39 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
It's assholes all the way down.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:39 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Anecdotally, I'm surprised how many people have strangely counterintuitive anecdotes that back up their counterfactual arguments.
posted by chris24 at 5:40 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by chris24 at 5:40 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Earlier in the thread: There's no evidence in this report which is too bad since we know for reasons that it's true
Now: There's no evidence in this report which is too bad because it makes me skeptical
WOW THAT SECOND PERSON IS PROBABLY DONALD TRUMP
posted by beerperson at 5:45 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Now: There's no evidence in this report which is too bad because it makes me skeptical
WOW THAT SECOND PERSON IS PROBABLY DONALD TRUMP
posted by beerperson at 5:45 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
is that u donnie?
i thought it was glenn.
Never change, election threads!
posted by naju at 5:46 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
i thought it was glenn.
Never change, election threads!
posted by naju at 5:46 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
So yes, I expect lots of NeverTrump Republicans to vote against the ACA they have always opposed
Always. Except when the Heritage Foundation was selling its ideas, except when Mitt Romney was doing it, except when the Republicans were talking favorably about Wyden-Bennett. Right?
(This doesn't take away from your larger point -- I agree, just because NeverTrump Republicans have different values than the bulk of the Republican party that got on the Trump train doesn't mean we can expect them to vote like Democrats. It just underscores that whatever the Republican party is doing when it comes to the ACA, it doesn't have much to do with health care policy.)
posted by wildblueyonder at 5:59 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Always. Except when the Heritage Foundation was selling its ideas, except when Mitt Romney was doing it, except when the Republicans were talking favorably about Wyden-Bennett. Right?
(This doesn't take away from your larger point -- I agree, just because NeverTrump Republicans have different values than the bulk of the Republican party that got on the Trump train doesn't mean we can expect them to vote like Democrats. It just underscores that whatever the Republican party is doing when it comes to the ACA, it doesn't have much to do with health care policy.)
posted by wildblueyonder at 5:59 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
The FBI alerted the Democratic National Committee as recently as New Year’s Eve that hackers were once again trying to break into their computer systems, BuzzFeed News has learned.
“There was activity the day after the president issued sanctions [against Russia], looking for ways to get into the servers,” one high-level source familiar with the investigation said.
...The ongoing FBI investigation into the DNC server hack came under sharp scrutiny this week when BuzzFeed News revealed the Bureau had never independently accessed or analyzed the committee’s hacked servers. The DNC originally said that was because the FBI never asked; the FBI later said it had asked and been rebuffed by DNC officials.
DNC officials tried to downplay the public disagreement Friday to BuzzFeed News, saying it was likely a miscommunication between the two entities.
posted by futz at 6:00 PM on January 6, 2017
“There was activity the day after the president issued sanctions [against Russia], looking for ways to get into the servers,” one high-level source familiar with the investigation said.
...The ongoing FBI investigation into the DNC server hack came under sharp scrutiny this week when BuzzFeed News revealed the Bureau had never independently accessed or analyzed the committee’s hacked servers. The DNC originally said that was because the FBI never asked; the FBI later said it had asked and been rebuffed by DNC officials.
DNC officials tried to downplay the public disagreement Friday to BuzzFeed News, saying it was likely a miscommunication between the two entities.
posted by futz at 6:00 PM on January 6, 2017
Keep in mind by my count there's been two instances of outright deception already caught out on the Russian matter:
Slate story, apparently shopped around to several outlets by someone (Hillary campaign? they certainly jumped in with a press release), trying to sell a Trump subcontractor's e-mail server as a stealthy channel to Putin when it was hocking deals on Trump Hotels room rates to Russian businesspeople.
That fake story has been repeated a bunch of times on Metafilter since its (rapid) debunking, actually.
I am surprised they didn't include any of the other publicly known stuff. I think the Bitly thing makes the strongest case towards Putin out of everything, not like a slam dunk, but it's certainly evidence instead of meaningless nonsense. These reports coming out just don't make sense as serious efforts at either truthfully informing and convincing OR propagandizing lies. Just incompetence? Are they trying to avoid anything concrete enough to be falsifiable? Are Deep State elements sympathetic to Trump in the mix bollixing things purposefully - the FBI's involved and it seems to have taken some pressure to get them to join in on the initial attribution?
The bit.ly thing is the first claimed evidence I've seen that seems convincing. (The Russian DNC hack story is not all that implausible -- it's just that every time we are presented with "evidence" for it it turns out to be embarrassing garbage, e.g. that someone who handled the documents used a Russian copy of MS Word. Wow!)
So, again, I don't think it's that implausible that Russian state elements were connected to the DNC hack and leak. But I share your confusion at the quality of evidence that keeps coming out. As you say, "These reports coming out just don't make sense as serious efforts at either truthfully informing and convincing OR propagandizing lies." The "technical" material has been extremely unconvincing, and this latest report is padded with inaccurate and tangential material about Russia Today, much of it apparently lifted straight from a 2012 report.
I think this reflects a calculation on the part of intel leaders that saying you're giving evidence is just as good as actually giving evidence. Claim to give evidence, and many people will just assume that you have given evidence.
posted by grobstein at 6:09 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Slate story, apparently shopped around to several outlets by someone (Hillary campaign? they certainly jumped in with a press release), trying to sell a Trump subcontractor's e-mail server as a stealthy channel to Putin when it was hocking deals on Trump Hotels room rates to Russian businesspeople.
That fake story has been repeated a bunch of times on Metafilter since its (rapid) debunking, actually.
I am surprised they didn't include any of the other publicly known stuff. I think the Bitly thing makes the strongest case towards Putin out of everything, not like a slam dunk, but it's certainly evidence instead of meaningless nonsense. These reports coming out just don't make sense as serious efforts at either truthfully informing and convincing OR propagandizing lies. Just incompetence? Are they trying to avoid anything concrete enough to be falsifiable? Are Deep State elements sympathetic to Trump in the mix bollixing things purposefully - the FBI's involved and it seems to have taken some pressure to get them to join in on the initial attribution?
The bit.ly thing is the first claimed evidence I've seen that seems convincing. (The Russian DNC hack story is not all that implausible -- it's just that every time we are presented with "evidence" for it it turns out to be embarrassing garbage, e.g. that someone who handled the documents used a Russian copy of MS Word. Wow!)
So, again, I don't think it's that implausible that Russian state elements were connected to the DNC hack and leak. But I share your confusion at the quality of evidence that keeps coming out. As you say, "These reports coming out just don't make sense as serious efforts at either truthfully informing and convincing OR propagandizing lies." The "technical" material has been extremely unconvincing, and this latest report is padded with inaccurate and tangential material about Russia Today, much of it apparently lifted straight from a 2012 report.
I think this reflects a calculation on the part of intel leaders that saying you're giving evidence is just as good as actually giving evidence. Claim to give evidence, and many people will just assume that you have given evidence.
posted by grobstein at 6:09 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
futz: Without more specific information, that's a non-story. Hackers are always trying to break in, everywhere. I'd be surprised if there hadn't been any attempts on DNC servers in the last 48 hours.
posted by Coventry at 6:09 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by Coventry at 6:09 PM on January 6, 2017
A recent article on "25 Things Turning 25 in 2017" included an item on the 25th anniversary of the Official End of the Cold War. February 1st, 1992, when George H.W. Bush and Boris Yeltzin together declared that the U.S.ofA. and Russia were no longer enemies or even 'rivals' (NYT report at the time). And if we've been friends for 25 years... how bad can a little espionage between friends be? The U.S. and its closest allies do spy stuff between each other all the time (Google "U.S.A. Israel spying").
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:15 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:15 PM on January 6, 2017
The Russian DNC hack story is not all that implausible -- it's just that every time we are presented with "evidence" for it it turns out to be embarrassing garbage, e.g. that someone who handled the documents used a Russian copy of MS Word. Wow!)
Are you talking about this evidence? If you are, your summary indicates either a complete lack of understanding, or you're being intentionally obtuse. If you aren't talking about that evidence, you should start getting your summaries from different sources because your current sources are failing you.
posted by diogenes at 6:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Are you talking about this evidence? If you are, your summary indicates either a complete lack of understanding, or you're being intentionally obtuse. If you aren't talking about that evidence, you should start getting your summaries from different sources because your current sources are failing you.
posted by diogenes at 6:23 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Never change, election threads!
I shall endeavor to remain the same, sir or madam.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
I shall endeavor to remain the same, sir or madam.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Never change, election threads!
I shall endeavor to remain the same, sir or madam.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:25 PM on January 6 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Eponasyt...oh the hell with it.
posted by vrakatar at 6:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I shall endeavor to remain the same, sir or madam.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:25 PM on January 6 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Eponasyt...oh the hell with it.
posted by vrakatar at 6:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Epony-way-too-fucking-late-now-that-we're-staring-down-the-beast's-throat-to-be-sterical.
posted by mrgoat at 6:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by mrgoat at 6:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Michelle Obama gave her final White House remarks in an emotional speech Friday, thanking her supporters and saying, "being your first lady has been the greatest honor of my life and I hope I've made you proud."
posted by futz at 6:34 PM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by futz at 6:34 PM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
I'd miss her even if she was getting replaced with something normal and not some kind of weird gross incestuous sister-wife situation.
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
Sister wife reminds me of King Theoden, which brings us to grima wormtongue, so, yeah, here we are.
posted by valkane at 6:41 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by valkane at 6:41 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
[ME:] The Russian DNC hack story is not all that implausible -- it's just that every time we are presented with "evidence" for it it turns out to be embarrassing garbage, e.g. that someone who handled the documents used a Russian copy of MS Word. Wow!)
[diogenes:] Are you talking about this evidence? If you are, your summary indicates either a complete lack of understanding, or you're being intentionally obtuse. If you aren't talking about that evidence, you should start getting your summaries from different sources because your current sources are failing you.
Truly bizarre comment.
The report you linked to doesn't even claim to provide evidence. It briefly describes conclusions (PDF pp. 1-3), and then gives security recommendations. The appendix is simply a list of possible threat "indicators" that readers are supposed to watch out for. These indicators apparently provided the basis for the embarrassing fake story about the Vermont utility hack, which the Washington Post had to thoroughly repudiate.
Your comment turns out to be a perfect illustration of the point I made above:
posted by grobstein at 6:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
[diogenes:] Are you talking about this evidence? If you are, your summary indicates either a complete lack of understanding, or you're being intentionally obtuse. If you aren't talking about that evidence, you should start getting your summaries from different sources because your current sources are failing you.
Truly bizarre comment.
The report you linked to doesn't even claim to provide evidence. It briefly describes conclusions (PDF pp. 1-3), and then gives security recommendations. The appendix is simply a list of possible threat "indicators" that readers are supposed to watch out for. These indicators apparently provided the basis for the embarrassing fake story about the Vermont utility hack, which the Washington Post had to thoroughly repudiate.
Your comment turns out to be a perfect illustration of the point I made above:
I think this reflects a calculation on the part of intel leaders that saying you're giving evidence is just as good as actually giving evidence. Claim to give evidence, and many people will just assume that you have given evidence.The report doesn't give evidence, it just states conclusions. Perhaps the conclusions are true! But simply repeating conclusions, even true ones, is not the same thing as providing evidence for them. But, even so, not only do you insist that the link is evidence, you are confident enough that it is that you immediately accuse me of being a dupe or disingenuous.
posted by grobstein at 6:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
grima wormtongue
Prefers to go by KellyAnne these days.
posted by TwoStride at 6:45 PM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
Prefers to go by KellyAnne these days.
posted by TwoStride at 6:45 PM on January 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
Conservatives Plot Their Course on the Rising ‘Sea of Red’ in State Capitals
posted by StrawberryPie at 6:52 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by StrawberryPie at 6:52 PM on January 6, 2017
Sister wife reminds me of King Theoden ...
Reminds me of Cat On A Hot Tin Roof. (Which isn't surprising since the whole thing is Tennessee Williams meets Allen Drury meets--I dunno--On The Beach.)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:00 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Reminds me of Cat On A Hot Tin Roof. (Which isn't surprising since the whole thing is Tennessee Williams meets Allen Drury meets--I dunno--On The Beach.)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:00 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ooh, someone touched a nerve at Wikileaks.
honestly, if twitter disappeared tomorrow i think net global intelligence would go up significantly
posted by Existential Dread at 7:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
honestly, if twitter disappeared tomorrow i think net global intelligence would go up significantly
posted by Existential Dread at 7:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
The report you linked to doesn't even claim to provide evidence.
It says "This document provides technical details regarding the tools and infrastructure used by the Russian civilian and military intelligence Services (RIS) to compromise and exploit networks and endpoints associated with the U.S. election."
And it provides indicators that are known to be associated with Russian military intelligence services.
How is providing the indicators (that are know to be associated with Russia) that were used during the "hack" of the the DNC not considered providing evidence of Russia hacking the DNC?
posted by diogenes at 7:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
It says "This document provides technical details regarding the tools and infrastructure used by the Russian civilian and military intelligence Services (RIS) to compromise and exploit networks and endpoints associated with the U.S. election."
And it provides indicators that are known to be associated with Russian military intelligence services.
How is providing the indicators (that are know to be associated with Russia) that were used during the "hack" of the the DNC not considered providing evidence of Russia hacking the DNC?
posted by diogenes at 7:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Never change, election threads!
I shall endeavor to remain the same, sir or madam.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:25 PM on January 6
Eponasyt...oh the hell with it.
posted by vrakatar at 9:29 PM on January 6
Epony-way-too-fucking-late-now-that-we're-staring-down-the-beast's-throat-to-be-sterical.
posted by mrgoat at 9:33 PM on January 6
Now I'm just feeling sad. :(
posted by Surely This at 7:51 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I shall endeavor to remain the same, sir or madam.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:25 PM on January 6
Eponasyt...oh the hell with it.
posted by vrakatar at 9:29 PM on January 6
Epony-way-too-fucking-late-now-that-we're-staring-down-the-beast's-throat-to-be-sterical.
posted by mrgoat at 9:33 PM on January 6
Now I'm just feeling sad. :(
posted by Surely This at 7:51 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Ooh, someone touched a nerve at Wikileaks.
Remember: loose tweets sink fleets.
posted by mordax at 7:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Remember: loose tweets sink fleets.
posted by mordax at 7:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
@WLTaskForce
@EyePatchGuy You are committing libel with actual malice. Retract or face the consequences
In the last few days before the election Wikileaks was spreading the rumor that Hillary was part of a global satanic pedophilia cult. I'd be amazed by their chutzpah here but judging by that one tweet about "parentheses," I don't think the yiddish is appropriate.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:57 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
@EyePatchGuy You are committing libel with actual malice. Retract or face the consequences
In the last few days before the election Wikileaks was spreading the rumor that Hillary was part of a global satanic pedophilia cult. I'd be amazed by their chutzpah here but judging by that one tweet about "parentheses," I don't think the yiddish is appropriate.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:57 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Never change, election threads!
It just hit me that we can't really call these "election" threads anymore. This is actually happening. What are they now, Presidency threads? Trump threads? I guess in a year or two they'll probably be Threads threads.
posted by gatorae at 7:57 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
It just hit me that we can't really call these "election" threads anymore. This is actually happening. What are they now, Presidency threads? Trump threads? I guess in a year or two they'll probably be Threads threads.
posted by gatorae at 7:57 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Armageddopalooza threads .
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:05 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
How is providing the indicators (that are know to be associated with Russia) that were used during the "hack" of the the DNC not considered providing evidence of Russia hacking the DNC?
Interesting hypothetical, but the report doesn't do that.
The "indicators" in the link are not -- and are not claimed to be -- "the indicators (that are known to be associated with Russia) that were used during the 'hack.'" They're just a general list of mostly addresses believed to be associated with "Reported Russian Military and Civilian Intelligence Services (RIS)." The RISs named in the report include the entities that are claimed to be involved with the DNC hacks, but they also include a ton of others, and the report doesn't say those indicators are the evidence for involvement in the DNC attacks.
Furthermore, the association between the indicators and RIS is not a particular tight one. As the Washington Post was forced to admit in its follow-up on the fake Vermont utility story, IP addresses like these provide only weak evidence of malicious activity.
posted by grobstein at 8:07 PM on January 6, 2017
Interesting hypothetical, but the report doesn't do that.
The "indicators" in the link are not -- and are not claimed to be -- "the indicators (that are known to be associated with Russia) that were used during the 'hack.'" They're just a general list of mostly addresses believed to be associated with "Reported Russian Military and Civilian Intelligence Services (RIS)." The RISs named in the report include the entities that are claimed to be involved with the DNC hacks, but they also include a ton of others, and the report doesn't say those indicators are the evidence for involvement in the DNC attacks.
Furthermore, the association between the indicators and RIS is not a particular tight one. As the Washington Post was forced to admit in its follow-up on the fake Vermont utility story, IP addresses like these provide only weak evidence of malicious activity.
An employee at Burlington Electric Department was checking his Yahoo email account Friday and triggered an alert indicating that his computer had connected to a suspicious IP address associated by authorities with the Russian hacking operation that infiltrated the Democratic Party. Officials told the company that traffic with this particular address is found elsewhere in the country and is not unique to Burlington Electric, suggesting the company wasn’t being targeted by the Russians. Indeed, officials say it is possible that the traffic is benign, since this particular IP address is not always connected to malicious activity.You keep citing this report for things it doesn't even claim to say. I find that disturbing.
posted by grobstein at 8:07 PM on January 6, 2017
What are they now, Presidency threads? Trump threads? I guess in a year or two they'll probably be Threads threads.
First you have to explain what the hell these threads are for.
posted by beerperson at 8:14 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
First you have to explain what the hell these threads are for.
posted by beerperson at 8:14 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
You keep citing this report for things it doesn't even claim to say.
"On October 7, 2016, Secretary Johnson and Director Clapper issued a joint statement that the intelligence community is confident the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from U.S. persons and institutions, including from U.S. political organizations...
Today, DHS and FBI released a Joint Analysis Report (JAR) which further expands on that statement by providing details of the tools and infrastructure used by Russian intelligence services to compromise and exploit networks and infrastructure associated with the recent U.S. election, as well as a range of U.S. government, political and private sector entities."
Is "providing details of the tools and infrastructure used by Russian intelligence services" different than providing evidence?
posted by diogenes at 8:19 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
"On October 7, 2016, Secretary Johnson and Director Clapper issued a joint statement that the intelligence community is confident the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from U.S. persons and institutions, including from U.S. political organizations...
Today, DHS and FBI released a Joint Analysis Report (JAR) which further expands on that statement by providing details of the tools and infrastructure used by Russian intelligence services to compromise and exploit networks and infrastructure associated with the recent U.S. election, as well as a range of U.S. government, political and private sector entities."
Is "providing details of the tools and infrastructure used by Russian intelligence services" different than providing evidence?
posted by diogenes at 8:19 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
beerperson: Information, organization, and support. Unfortunately, there's an unavoidable tension between those objectives.
posted by Coventry at 8:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 8:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Maybe we could just leave grobstein alone with his disturbation. This is not going to go anywhere.
posted by uosuaq at 8:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by uosuaq at 8:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Before Donald did the twitter "Apologize" thing in response to Pence attending Hamilton, were similar declaratives* ("Retract or face the consequences") often used by twits?
I think twitter might be the automobiles/car of the internet - sure, there's interaction but there no face-to-face interction.
Road rage can be toxic; the one time that someone was ragey enough to get out of their car to confront me - I got out of my car, stood up, took a serious expression, and looked the raging foamy wild-eyed screaming guy in the eye. Screaming, eye-wildness, foam, and rage evaporated.
(ok, yes, I was privileged by being 10 years younger, taller, and had much more muscle mass, [we were both PoC but of different ethnicities/backgrounds] but that's besides the point - strangely, my being civil to him led him to give me his business card and to call if I ever needed his <blergh> services)
*sorry, no, I don't know the correct term for this bit of grammar
posted by porpoise at 8:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think twitter might be the automobiles/car of the internet - sure, there's interaction but there no face-to-face interction.
Road rage can be toxic; the one time that someone was ragey enough to get out of their car to confront me - I got out of my car, stood up, took a serious expression, and looked the raging foamy wild-eyed screaming guy in the eye. Screaming, eye-wildness, foam, and rage evaporated.
(ok, yes, I was privileged by being 10 years younger, taller, and had much more muscle mass, [we were both PoC but of different ethnicities/backgrounds] but that's besides the point - strangely, my being civil to him led him to give me his business card and to call if I ever needed his <blergh> services)
*sorry, no, I don't know the correct term for this bit of grammar
posted by porpoise at 8:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
'Someone described this as evidence' does not mean something is compelling evidence
posted by beerperson at 8:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 8:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Started reading David Fleming's Lean Logic today, and damned if the section "How to Cheat in an Argument" didn't remind me a whole awful lot of a certain combed-over yam with a Twitter account. If the author hadn't been dead a few years now, I'd never have believed he didn't have Trump in mind for a bunch of items on the list.
FWIW, the book's pretty fascinating and horrifying so far. Published posthumously (but at the perfect moment, as it turns out) it's the author's 30-years-in-the-making magnum opus that's kind of like... a green anarchist prepper handbook, if such a thing were equal parts scholarly, delightful, and whimsical.
posted by Rykey at 8:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
FWIW, the book's pretty fascinating and horrifying so far. Published posthumously (but at the perfect moment, as it turns out) it's the author's 30-years-in-the-making magnum opus that's kind of like... a green anarchist prepper handbook, if such a thing were equal parts scholarly, delightful, and whimsical.
posted by Rykey at 8:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
i think from here on out we should refer to wikileaks as RapistShitbagLeaks.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:26 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
'Someone described this as evidence' does not mean something is compelling evidence.
Agreed, but grobstein is arguing that the report doesn't even claim to provide evidence.
posted by diogenes at 8:30 PM on January 6, 2017
Agreed, but grobstein is arguing that the report doesn't even claim to provide evidence.
posted by diogenes at 8:30 PM on January 6, 2017
In what appears to be an attempt to commiserate with his constituents, Michigan Sen. Patrick Colbeck (R-Canton) says he's been living on a fixed income for the last six years he's served the people of Michigan.
-- The only problem? Colbeck brings in just below $72,000 a year via a taxpayer-funded salary. That's nearly three times more than the Michigan poverty level for a family of four.
Colbeck, a Canton resident and a Tea Party fave, has generally voted against expanding public services to the poor and disabled. He's voted against expanding Medicaid eligibility and requiring insurance to cover Autism treatment. He also voted in favor of limit unemployment benefits
Here is a better link to the text of the FB post with more information.
Excuse me while I put on my LoLerskates and board my ROFLcopter.
posted by futz at 8:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
-- The only problem? Colbeck brings in just below $72,000 a year via a taxpayer-funded salary. That's nearly three times more than the Michigan poverty level for a family of four.
Colbeck, a Canton resident and a Tea Party fave, has generally voted against expanding public services to the poor and disabled. He's voted against expanding Medicaid eligibility and requiring insurance to cover Autism treatment. He also voted in favor of limit unemployment benefits
Here is a better link to the text of the FB post with more information.
Excuse me while I put on my LoLerskates and board my ROFLcopter.
posted by futz at 8:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
diogenes: The only pertinent evidence it provides is a series of assertions from a historically unreliable and politically motivated source. Raw file hashes and ip addresses are not in themselves evidence.
posted by Coventry at 8:42 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by Coventry at 8:42 PM on January 6, 2017
I am saying to every Republican right now, if you in fact can put a plan together that is demonstrably better than what Obamacare is doing, I will publicly support repealing Obamacare and replacing it with your plan. But I want to see it first.
Oh Charlie Brown, don't you know she's just going to yank the football away from your earnest feet yet again? You don't offer things like that to the Republicans because they will lie and say their plan is demonstrably better and tell their supporters that you lied.
I am morbidly curious how history with treat Obama's insistence on treating the Republicans like they operate in good faith to the very end.
posted by Candleman at 8:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Oh Charlie Brown, don't you know she's just going to yank the football away from your earnest feet yet again? You don't offer things like that to the Republicans because they will lie and say their plan is demonstrably better and tell their supporters that you lied.
I am morbidly curious how history with treat Obama's insistence on treating the Republicans like they operate in good faith to the very end.
posted by Candleman at 8:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
diogenes: If you want to establish them as evidence, you should describe how the theory that the Russian Federation was behind the hacks would predict them and not a bunch of other hash strings/ip addresses.
posted by Coventry at 8:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 8:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
2018 commercial:
guy in a MAGA hat: "I had good insurance. Now I've got nothin'. What happened?"
[clip of Obama]: "-I will publicly support repealing Obamacare-"
MAGA guy: "THANKS, OBAMA!"
voiceover: Brought to you by the Republican National Committee.
posted by gatorae at 8:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
guy in a MAGA hat: "I had good insurance. Now I've got nothin'. What happened?"
[clip of Obama]: "-I will publicly support repealing Obamacare-"
MAGA guy: "THANKS, OBAMA!"
voiceover: Brought to you by the Republican National Committee.
posted by gatorae at 8:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
The election itself does not appear to have been tainted.
Cite, plz.
posted by petebest at 8:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Cite, plz.
posted by petebest at 8:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Please drop the is-it-or-ain't-it-evidence thing on the Russian hacking memo; we've been around this loop many times, no minds are being changed, leave it alone.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:50 PM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Not only are Chinese authorities collecting vast amounts of personal data on all of their citizens, that data is now for sale.
Guys, they can sell us *and* sell us out! It's win-win for Team Turdfungus!
posted by petebest at 9:05 PM on January 6, 2017
Guys, they can sell us *and* sell us out! It's win-win for Team Turdfungus!
posted by petebest at 9:05 PM on January 6, 2017
Oh, and recommend closing those Tweetface accounts pronto. Turns out they weren't mandatory after all. At least not before 1/20/17.
posted by petebest at 9:09 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by petebest at 9:09 PM on January 6, 2017
Hey guys, I know we've taken great care of this thread, and it's lasted longer than most, but it's starting to kill my mobile. Thoughts on a new thread?
posted by corb at 9:20 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:20 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
We shouldn't abandon support for wimpy phones, no matter how dark and darwinian the era we're about to enter seems.
posted by Coventry at 9:24 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Coventry at 9:24 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Someone can post a new one if they want; Wordshore has hung up the post-making conch with the new year.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:25 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I recommend the post text consist entirely of 'This is the next election post or whatever the fuck.'
posted by beerperson at 9:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 9:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
If you hate these threads, feel free to skip them.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Thank you for all your hard work Wordshore & for being an all around awesome person. I can only assume that you are busy working on a book not related at all to Who Moved My Cheese? In all seriousness, you did a lot of the heavy lifting around here and I thank you for it
posted by futz at 9:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [44 favorites]
posted by futz at 9:48 PM on January 6, 2017 [44 favorites]
I recommend the post text consist entirely of 'This is the next election post or whatever the fuck.'
This thread is two weeks old, you're making a specific effort to be here.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
This thread is two weeks old, you're making a specific effort to be here.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Someone can post a new one if they want; Wordshore has hung up the post-making conch with the new year.
Shoot, I didn't realize there wasn't a Plan beyond 2016.
Edit: Wordshore, you're amazing. Thanks for everything you've done here.
posted by christopherious at 10:06 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Shoot, I didn't realize there wasn't a Plan beyond 2016.
Edit: Wordshore, you're amazing. Thanks for everything you've done here.
posted by christopherious at 10:06 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Kellyanne Conway provokes laughter with her refusal to even say the word “Russia”
The linked website is obviously hyper partisan but they have the best kellyanne videos.
posted by futz at 10:36 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The linked website is obviously hyper partisan but they have the best kellyanne videos.
posted by futz at 10:36 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Kathleen Parker, WaPo: If Obama is a Muslim, is Trump a Russian spy?
In sum, when the president-elect persists in a state of denial, siding with the enemy against his own country’s best interests, one is forced to consider that Trump himself poses a threat to national security.
In Russia, they’d just call it treason.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
In sum, when the president-elect persists in a state of denial, siding with the enemy against his own country’s best interests, one is forced to consider that Trump himself poses a threat to national security.
In Russia, they’d just call it treason.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:38 PM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Insiders: Trump Team Dangled Ambassadorships to Lure A-List Inauguration Singers
President-elect Donald Trump’s team is struggling so hard to book A-list performers for his inaugural festivities that it offered ambassadorships to at least two talent bookers if they could deliver marquee names, the bookers told TheWrap.posted by kirkaracha at 10:47 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wish it'd only been two months
posted by polyhedron at 10:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by polyhedron at 10:53 PM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
It occurs to me that if you think the Obama administration is lying about the quality of evidence for the Russian attribution, then we should know in a few weeks, at which point Trump can force the IC to reveal their evidence and declassify it himself if he thinks it's weak. If we don't hear anything from him on the matter, we can probably conclude it was legit, since he clearly has no interest in making Russia look bad.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 10:56 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Or maybe he'll just have his new spooks make some shit up and insist it's true.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:59 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:59 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, that can't really happen that fast. He can only directly appoint a level or two down -- below that it's civil servants. If he puts in some toadies, they have to fire all the ones who aren't toadies, and they in turn have to do the same... And anyone in that chain of command can anonymously leak.
In other words, go long on popcorn futures.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:02 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
In other words, go long on popcorn futures.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:02 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
honestly, if twitter disappeared tomorrow i think net global intelligence would go up significantly
This is probably true in the short term, for example the letters erudite people used to send each other compared to the chicken scratches we produce now is like comparing Mozart and Smashmouth.
But the sum total of the intelligence contained within Twitter is astronomical by the standards of the past. We have no choice but to figure it out, or we will be consumed by it. Maybe there is no way out.
posted by cell divide at 11:20 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
This is probably true in the short term, for example the letters erudite people used to send each other compared to the chicken scratches we produce now is like comparing Mozart and Smashmouth.
But the sum total of the intelligence contained within Twitter is astronomical by the standards of the past. We have no choice but to figure it out, or we will be consumed by it. Maybe there is no way out.
posted by cell divide at 11:20 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Insiders: Trump Team Dangled Ambassadorships to Lure A-List Inauguration Singers
Wow, prices have come down. Nixon sold the ambassadorship to Jamaica to Vincent de Roulet for the equivalent of about $500K in today's money.
posted by Coventry at 11:49 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wow, prices have come down. Nixon sold the ambassadorship to Jamaica to Vincent de Roulet for the equivalent of about $500K in today's money.
posted by Coventry at 11:49 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Sorry, I understand how it may be frustrating, but we're not going to have a big Assange/rape derail fight here.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:48 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 3:48 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Insiders: Trump Team Dangled Ambassadorships to Lure A-List Inauguration Singers
Wow, prices have come down. Nixon sold the ambassadorship to Jamaica to Vincent de Roulet for the equivalent of about $500K in today's money.
Well, Trump needs the US to be taken seriously. Who better for that then Ted Nugent, Ambassador?
posted by jaduncan at 3:49 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wow, prices have come down. Nixon sold the ambassadorship to Jamaica to Vincent de Roulet for the equivalent of about $500K in today's money.
Well, Trump needs the US to be taken seriously. Who better for that then Ted Nugent, Ambassador?
posted by jaduncan at 3:49 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Yeah, that can't really happen that fast. He can only directly appoint a level or two down -- below that it's civil servants. If he puts in some toadies, they have to fire all the ones who aren't toadies, and they in turn have to do the same..."
"House Republicans this week reinstated an arcane procedural rule that enables lawmakers to reach deep into the budget and slash the pay of an individual federal worker — down to a $1 — a move that threatens to upend the 130-year-old civil service."
Last week I was a civil servant; this week I became a political appointee.
posted by klarck at 6:00 AM on January 7, 2017 [19 favorites]
"House Republicans this week reinstated an arcane procedural rule that enables lawmakers to reach deep into the budget and slash the pay of an individual federal worker — down to a $1 — a move that threatens to upend the 130-year-old civil service."
Last week I was a civil servant; this week I became a political appointee.
posted by klarck at 6:00 AM on January 7, 2017 [19 favorites]
The best part about the spoils system is how it results in a government that is corrupt as hell and terrible at everything because the bureaucracy is staffed according to politics and not according to skills. Which, of course, is the Republican ideal.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:08 AM on January 7, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:08 AM on January 7, 2017 [13 favorites]
Do American civil servants have unions? The 'we can sack anyone at will' provision seems to me to be cast iron justification for industrial action. Government shut-downs aren't the sole prerogative of the government.
posted by Devonian at 6:39 AM on January 7, 2017
posted by Devonian at 6:39 AM on January 7, 2017
Government workers are indeed unionized. It'll be interesting to see how they respond if Congress does try to invoke that rule.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:48 AM on January 7, 2017
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:48 AM on January 7, 2017
Don't get your hopes up- just like in any union job government work is full of right-wingers.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:53 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:53 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
More to the point, what protections do federal workers' unions have? I know here in Texas, state workers' unions are prohibited from collectively bargaining which means they're worth about as much as a real wet fart.
posted by sciatrix at 6:59 AM on January 7, 2017
posted by sciatrix at 6:59 AM on January 7, 2017
The General Counsel and members of the National Labor Relations Board are Presidential appointees.
...Although they may only oversee the private sector. If so, there might not be an equivalent.
(Edit: yep, private only, plus the quasi-public Postal Service).
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:14 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
...Although they may only oversee the private sector. If so, there might not be an equivalent.
(Edit: yep, private only, plus the quasi-public Postal Service).
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:14 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
My union mainly complaines about the size of cubicles and tries to get on TV when there's a shutdown. They certainly can't bargain over pay and I believe actions like strikes are illegal. They will represent you before the MSPB, for whatever that's worth when your salary is summarily reduced to $1.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:15 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:15 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
The new head of the DoL believes that overtime strips employees of dignity and thinks the idea of mandatory breaks is ridiculous.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:15 AM on January 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:15 AM on January 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am happy to work on a new post, FWIW.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:17 AM on January 7, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:17 AM on January 7, 2017 [25 favorites]
More to the point, what protections do federal workers' unions have?
Not a familiar area for me, but it would seem it's just the Office of Personnel Management, the FLRA (I guess that's the counterpart to the NLRB, also Presidential appointments), the MSPB just mentioned, and the courts. MSPB has this on their site:
The Merit Systems Protection Board is an independent, quasi-judicial agency in the Executive branch that serves as the guardian of Federal merit systems. The Board was established by Reorganization Plan No. 2 of 1978, which was codified by the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA), Public Law No. 95-454. The CSRA, which became effective January 11, 1979, replaced the Civil Service Commission with three new independent agencies: Office of Personnel Management (OPM), which manages the Federal work force; Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA), which oversees Federal labor-management relations; and, the Board.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:22 AM on January 7, 2017
Not a familiar area for me, but it would seem it's just the Office of Personnel Management, the FLRA (I guess that's the counterpart to the NLRB, also Presidential appointments), the MSPB just mentioned, and the courts. MSPB has this on their site:
The Merit Systems Protection Board is an independent, quasi-judicial agency in the Executive branch that serves as the guardian of Federal merit systems. The Board was established by Reorganization Plan No. 2 of 1978, which was codified by the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA), Public Law No. 95-454. The CSRA, which became effective January 11, 1979, replaced the Civil Service Commission with three new independent agencies: Office of Personnel Management (OPM), which manages the Federal work force; Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA), which oversees Federal labor-management relations; and, the Board.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:22 AM on January 7, 2017
@realDonaldTrump
Having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. Only "stupid" people, or fools, would think that it is bad! We.....have enough problems around the world without yet another one. When I am President, Russia will respect us far more than they do now and...both countries will, perhaps, work together to solve some of the many great and pressing problems and issues of the WORLD!
Took over 20 minutes to write those 3 tweets, including one deleted and rewritten, so this is the pinnacle of deliberation for him. He's definitely not intentionally distracting from Russia.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:24 AM on January 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
Having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. Only "stupid" people, or fools, would think that it is bad! We.....have enough problems around the world without yet another one. When I am President, Russia will respect us far more than they do now and...both countries will, perhaps, work together to solve some of the many great and pressing problems and issues of the WORLD!
Took over 20 minutes to write those 3 tweets, including one deleted and rewritten, so this is the pinnacle of deliberation for him. He's definitely not intentionally distracting from Russia.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:24 AM on January 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
That would be awesome, roomthreeseventeen. My iPad thanks you in advance.
also: MetaFilter: like comparing Mozart and Smashmouth
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:25 AM on January 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
also: MetaFilter: like comparing Mozart and Smashmouth
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:25 AM on January 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
NATO? Eh. Russia? Let's join together and r̶u̶l̶e̶ fix the world!
posted by chris24 at 7:26 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by chris24 at 7:26 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
White House senior advisor Steve Bannon's website is spreading disinformation aimed at destabilizing a key ally's government
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 AM on January 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 AM on January 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
both countries will, perhaps, work together to solve some of the many great and pressing problems and issues of the WORLD!
If only there was an international deliberative body of member nations that was chartered to do that... oh wait, they suck and their building is ugly.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:31 AM on January 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
If only there was an international deliberative body of member nations that was chartered to do that... oh wait, they suck and their building is ugly.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:31 AM on January 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
NATO? Eh. Russia? Let's join together and r̶u̶l̶e̶ fix the world!
Well sure, Russia's got the shitless dude on the horse, NATO's just full of Uz-becki-becki-becki-stan-stan guys. Not quality!
posted by petebest at 7:34 AM on January 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
Well sure, Russia's got the shitless dude on the horse, NATO's just full of Uz-becki-becki-becki-stan-stan guys. Not quality!
posted by petebest at 7:34 AM on January 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
White House senior advisor Steve Bannon's website is spreading disinformation aimed at destabilizing a key ally's government https://twitter.com/timobrien/status/817732152028700673
Oh hai rest of the world, new USA here. You know all this talk about Russia? Welcome to the world of our new alliance! Don't worry though, I swear, you have to trust me on this together we're going to solve the great and pressing issues of the world!
Oh I almost forgot: Heads up though, white, straight males need only apply for the coming greatness cause together we're gonna make sure things run like they naturally should
posted by Jalliah at 7:38 AM on January 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh hai rest of the world, new USA here. You know all this talk about Russia? Welcome to the world of our new alliance! Don't worry though, I swear, you have to trust me on this together we're going to solve the great and pressing issues of the world!
Oh I almost forgot: Heads up though, white, straight males need only apply for the coming greatness cause together we're gonna make sure things run like they naturally should
posted by Jalliah at 7:38 AM on January 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
the shitless dude on the horse
As in "doesn't give a"?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:39 AM on January 7, 2017
As in "doesn't give a"?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:39 AM on January 7, 2017
[FAKE]ing: "Rock You Like A" Herman Cain Appointed Abassador to Uz-becki-becki-becki-aw forget it.
posted by petebest at 7:40 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by petebest at 7:40 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
White House senior advisor Steve Bannon's website is spreading disinformation aimed at destabilizing a key ally's government
For those who'd appreciate skipping the hopscotch of twitter links...
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:41 AM on January 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
For those who'd appreciate skipping the hopscotch of twitter links...
German media and politicians have warned against an election-year spike in fake news after the rightwing website Breitbart claimed a mob chanting “Allahu Akbar” had set fire to a church in the city of Dortmund on New Year’s Eve.gruaniad
After the report by the US site was widely shared on social media, the city’s police clarified that no “extraordinary or spectacular” incidents had marred the festivities.
The local newspaper, Ruhr Nachrichten, said elements of its online reporting on New Year’s Eve had been distorted by Breitbart to produce “fake news, hate and propaganda”.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:41 AM on January 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
both countries will, perhaps, work together to solve some of the many great and pressing problems and issues of the WORLD
His hero General Patton wanted to buddy up with the Nazis and attack the Soviet Union.
I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them…the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.posted by kirkaracha at 10:46 AM on January 7, 2017
MetaFilter: they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks
posted by kirkaracha at 10:48 AM on January 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:48 AM on January 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
the shitless dude on the horse
As in "doesn't give a"?
Shirtless, I hope
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:24 PM on January 7, 2017
As in "doesn't give a"?
Shirtless, I hope
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:24 PM on January 7, 2017
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posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on December 23, 2016 [4 favorites]