Emperor allowed to resign, but not to be a woman
June 9, 2017 7:33 AM Subscribe
The National Diet (Japan's legislature) has passed a law that would allow Emperor Akihito (and only Akihito) to resign the Chrysanthemum Throne due to his age. Lawmakers included a nonbinding resolution for the government to study reforms to the succession, such as allowing the line to pass through women or other changes that many say are crucial to the long-term future of the world's oldest continual hereditary monarchy.
Exactly. Didn't the prince basically have to call out the courtiers in public and tell them to leave her alone? Doesn't sound like the substance of court life has changed all that much since Tale of Genji.
posted by orrnyereg at 7:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 7:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Last time the prospect of a woman inheriting the Chrysanthemum Throne came up, a conservative member of the Diet actually argued that there was something special and unique about the Emperor's Y chromosome, and for this reason women couldn't inherit.
On such absurdities do monarchies rest.
posted by sotonohito at 7:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
On such absurdities do monarchies rest.
posted by sotonohito at 7:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
Doesn't sound like the substance of court life has changed all that much since Tale of Genji.
In the Heian period, emperors were abdicating left and right after a period of a few years (often in their childhood or teens). I don't know when it switched over to Emperor-for-Life Mode.
posted by Hypatia at 7:51 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
In the Heian period, emperors were abdicating left and right after a period of a few years (often in their childhood or teens). I don't know when it switched over to Emperor-for-Life Mode.
posted by Hypatia at 7:51 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
This portion of the FPP may be a little misleading:
Lawmakers included a nonbinding resolution for the government to study reforms to the succession, such as allowing the line to pass through women
To be clear it's not calling for a study on allowing women to ascend to throne themselves. Currently the line may only pass through males, which is why Princess Mako, the Emperor's eldest granddaughter, must leave the imperial family now that she's marrying a male commoner. Her children and their line will not be eligible for succession. The government will look into changing that to allow the line of succession to continue through female members. The impetus for this is that the imperial family, due to this policy and other issues, has been shrinking.
I've read that this may actually be a subtle way to backdoor the idea of women actually taking the throne, which as noted above is currently anathema to the more conservative elements of the ruling party. This measure doesn't directly allow women on the throne, but may get people used enough to having women involved in succession that it lays the foundation for a future change.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:57 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
Lawmakers included a nonbinding resolution for the government to study reforms to the succession, such as allowing the line to pass through women
To be clear it's not calling for a study on allowing women to ascend to throne themselves. Currently the line may only pass through males, which is why Princess Mako, the Emperor's eldest granddaughter, must leave the imperial family now that she's marrying a male commoner. Her children and their line will not be eligible for succession. The government will look into changing that to allow the line of succession to continue through female members. The impetus for this is that the imperial family, due to this policy and other issues, has been shrinking.
I've read that this may actually be a subtle way to backdoor the idea of women actually taking the throne, which as noted above is currently anathema to the more conservative elements of the ruling party. This measure doesn't directly allow women on the throne, but may get people used enough to having women involved in succession that it lays the foundation for a future change.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:57 AM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
Isn't the Emperor considered to be a descendant of Amaterasu which provides some sort of lustre of divinity to the position? It seems at a certain point in time you have to decide whether maintaining your dynastic divinity is more important than maintaining an incredibly patriarchal system.
posted by vuron at 7:57 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by vuron at 7:57 AM on June 9, 2017
Last time the prospect of a woman inheriting the Chrysanthemum Throne came up, a conservative member of the Diet actually argued that there was something special and unique about the Emperor's Y chromosome, and for this reason women couldn't inherit.
This is a theory an alien archaeologist would come up with to reverse-justify patrilineal succession in an age of accurate DNA testing.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:58 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
This is a theory an alien archaeologist would come up with to reverse-justify patrilineal succession in an age of accurate DNA testing.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:58 AM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
Last time the prospect of a woman inheriting the Chrysanthemum Throne came up, a conservative member of the Diet actually argued that there was something special and unique about the Emperor's Y chromosome, and for this reason women couldn't inherit.
On such absurdities do monarchies rest.
Understands underlying genetic basis of sexual reproduction
Believes emperor is descended from sun goddess who gave him magic sword, mirror, and jewel.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:00 AM on June 9, 2017 [18 favorites]
On such absurdities do monarchies rest.
Understands underlying genetic basis of sexual reproduction
Believes emperor is descended from sun goddess who gave him magic sword, mirror, and jewel.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:00 AM on June 9, 2017 [18 favorites]
Why don't they just end the American-mandated law of 1945 that neutralised the aristocracy? That would produce many heir opportunities.
posted by parmanparman at 8:05 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by parmanparman at 8:05 AM on June 9, 2017
I don't know when it switched over to Emperor-for-Life Mode.
When Japan became a Constitutional monarchy following the end of World War II.
posted by My Dad at 8:09 AM on June 9, 2017
When Japan became a Constitutional monarchy following the end of World War II.
posted by My Dad at 8:09 AM on June 9, 2017
Believes emperor is descended from sun goddess.
Though isn't the British royal family officially descended from Odin, despite the Norse pantheon having been officially nonexistent for the past millennium or so?
posted by acb at 8:11 AM on June 9, 2017
Though isn't the British royal family officially descended from Odin, despite the Norse pantheon having been officially nonexistent for the past millennium or so?
posted by acb at 8:11 AM on June 9, 2017
This measure doesn't directly allow women on the throne, but may get people used enough to having women involved in succession that it lays the foundation for a future change.
Japan has existed as a political entity for about 1300 years. Any changes are going to be incremental (i.e., will occur over generations) unless, of course, changes are imposed from the outside.
posted by My Dad at 8:12 AM on June 9, 2017
Japan has existed as a political entity for about 1300 years. Any changes are going to be incremental (i.e., will occur over generations) unless, of course, changes are imposed from the outside.
posted by My Dad at 8:12 AM on June 9, 2017
When Japan became a Constitutional monarchy following the end of World War II.
Probably more like the Meiji Restoration. The shogun was more important than the emperor throughout the Edo Period before that time.
posted by plep at 8:13 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Probably more like the Meiji Restoration. The shogun was more important than the emperor throughout the Edo Period before that time.
posted by plep at 8:13 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
(To clarify, even before the Meiji Restoration there were emperors who reigned for life; they just weren't as important as the hereditary shogun).
posted by plep at 8:14 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by plep at 8:14 AM on June 9, 2017
Though isn't the British royal family officially descended from Odin, despite the Norse pantheon having been officially nonexistent for the past millennium or so?
Erm, no. Although some of the Anglo-Saxon monarchs may have believed this (well, Wotan anyway) and there are some medieval family trees showing this, it's not 'official' in any sense....
Interesting related thread.
posted by plep at 8:18 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Erm, no. Although some of the Anglo-Saxon monarchs may have believed this (well, Wotan anyway) and there are some medieval family trees showing this, it's not 'official' in any sense....
Interesting related thread.
posted by plep at 8:18 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
> Believes emperor is descended from sun goddess who gave him magic sword, mirror, and jewel.
Does anybody in Japan actually believe that anything about Shinto is literally true? My understanding (which could be wrong; I'm not an expert, I'm not Japanese, and I welcome correction) is that Shinto is so tightly bound up with national identity and the legitimacy of the traditional Japanese state that following its traditions and making observances is primarily an expression of patriotism and a signifier of belonging, of associating oneself with the national identity, et cetera. It seems like the actual tenets of the religion are entirely suborned to its ceremonial role.
The highly syncretic nature of ceremonial observances in Japan seems to corroborate this, right? Shinto is not really doctrinally compatible with Buddhism, and neither of them are at all doctrinally compatible with Christianity, but isn't it pretty common for Japanese people, in various circumstances, to participate in ceremonies of all three religions?
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 8:19 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Does anybody in Japan actually believe that anything about Shinto is literally true? My understanding (which could be wrong; I'm not an expert, I'm not Japanese, and I welcome correction) is that Shinto is so tightly bound up with national identity and the legitimacy of the traditional Japanese state that following its traditions and making observances is primarily an expression of patriotism and a signifier of belonging, of associating oneself with the national identity, et cetera. It seems like the actual tenets of the religion are entirely suborned to its ceremonial role.
The highly syncretic nature of ceremonial observances in Japan seems to corroborate this, right? Shinto is not really doctrinally compatible with Buddhism, and neither of them are at all doctrinally compatible with Christianity, but isn't it pretty common for Japanese people, in various circumstances, to participate in ceremonies of all three religions?
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 8:19 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
despite the Norse pantheon having been officially nonexistent for the past millennium
Wash your mouth.
/derail over
posted by kariebookish at 8:19 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wash your mouth.
/derail over
posted by kariebookish at 8:19 AM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Though isn't the British royal family officially descended from Odin, despite the Norse pantheon having been officially nonexistent for the past millennium or so?
Which is why, for the architectural knowledge necessary to design Poundbury, Prince Charles plucked out his own eye.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [17 favorites]
Which is why, for the architectural knowledge necessary to design Poundbury, Prince Charles plucked out his own eye.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [17 favorites]
So a woman cannot become Emperor, but could the Emperor become a woman?
posted by acb at 8:35 AM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by acb at 8:35 AM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
Probably more like the Meiji Restoration. The shogun was more important than the emperor throughout the Edo Period before that time.
Yeah, but everything changed in 1945 when the Americans (re)wrote the Constitution.
posted by My Dad at 8:40 AM on June 9, 2017
Yeah, but everything changed in 1945 when the Americans (re)wrote the Constitution.
posted by My Dad at 8:40 AM on June 9, 2017
Does anybody in Japan actually believe that anything about Shinto is literally true? ...
...The highly syncretic nature of ceremonial observances in Japan seems to corroborate this, right? Shinto is not really doctrinally compatible with Buddhism...
The mumbo jumbo called "Shinto" is a relatively recent invention. The chauvinists who reinstalled the emperor in 1868 decided to "separate" Shinto from Buddhism. Until that time, generally speaking, Buddhist temples served as stewards of many "Shinto" sites. It was syncretic, as you said.
However, following 1868, Shinto was formalized by the state. So the mumbo jumbo about Amaterasu became part of the national belief.
I don't know what regular Japanese people actually think about that sort of thing (the emperor being the descendent of the sun god etc).
I do know that when my wife and my mother-in-law go to the local shrine to pray for something, they genuinely believe they are communicating with the god of that particular shrine. And they are both pretty regular Japanese people. And if they believe it, so do I. While I am in Japan. I tend to have dual points of view, which personally I find interesting about myself.
posted by My Dad at 8:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [15 favorites]
...The highly syncretic nature of ceremonial observances in Japan seems to corroborate this, right? Shinto is not really doctrinally compatible with Buddhism...
The mumbo jumbo called "Shinto" is a relatively recent invention. The chauvinists who reinstalled the emperor in 1868 decided to "separate" Shinto from Buddhism. Until that time, generally speaking, Buddhist temples served as stewards of many "Shinto" sites. It was syncretic, as you said.
However, following 1868, Shinto was formalized by the state. So the mumbo jumbo about Amaterasu became part of the national belief.
I don't know what regular Japanese people actually think about that sort of thing (the emperor being the descendent of the sun god etc).
I do know that when my wife and my mother-in-law go to the local shrine to pray for something, they genuinely believe they are communicating with the god of that particular shrine. And they are both pretty regular Japanese people. And if they believe it, so do I. While I am in Japan. I tend to have dual points of view, which personally I find interesting about myself.
posted by My Dad at 8:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [15 favorites]
So a woman cannot become Emperor, but could the Emperor become a woman?
That... could be an interesting question. There's a decent amount of transgenderism in the more risque anime, but I don't perceive that Japanese society would take to its actual instance with the royal family all that well. Then again, public attitudes about Trans issues are starting to change in most developed nations, so you never know.
Similarly, what if the only heir were a woman, but it was determined that they actually had Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? That would throw the conservative politician's arguments about the Y chromosome for a loop, though would also challenge reproduction issues since an AIS individual isn't likely to produce any further heirs...
posted by mystyk at 8:51 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
That... could be an interesting question. There's a decent amount of transgenderism in the more risque anime, but I don't perceive that Japanese society would take to its actual instance with the royal family all that well. Then again, public attitudes about Trans issues are starting to change in most developed nations, so you never know.
Similarly, what if the only heir were a woman, but it was determined that they actually had Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? That would throw the conservative politician's arguments about the Y chromosome for a loop, though would also challenge reproduction issues since an AIS individual isn't likely to produce any further heirs...
posted by mystyk at 8:51 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
From a practical legal and cultural point of view, Japan's establishment is far less tolerant of LGBTQ+ than Canada. Japan makes even the United States look positively enlightened.
posted by My Dad at 9:12 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by My Dad at 9:12 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Man, the Salic Law was more widespread than I realized.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:23 AM on June 9, 2017
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:23 AM on June 9, 2017
You all might enjoy this really great Tofugu article on the state takeover of Shinto.
I learned about the Princess Mako stuff while I was working my way through The Crown and the Princess Margaret storyline. Interesting parallels.
Also Reincarnated Amaterasu is a totally awesome light team card.
posted by freecellwizard at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I learned about the Princess Mako stuff while I was working my way through The Crown and the Princess Margaret storyline. Interesting parallels.
Also Reincarnated Amaterasu is a totally awesome light team card.
posted by freecellwizard at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I bet they would allow the line of succession to pass through giant robots before they would allow it to pass through women.
posted by rikschell at 9:42 AM on June 9, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 9:42 AM on June 9, 2017 [15 favorites]
Giant male robots.
posted by cuscutis at 9:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by cuscutis at 9:46 AM on June 9, 2017 [12 favorites]
... and I just learned that their only daughter, Princess Toshi, had problems with bullying in school and now seems to be out of public view as well. Jesus.
posted by Melismata at 10:42 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Melismata at 10:42 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
The mumbo jumbo called "Shinto" is a relatively recent invention. The chauvinists who reinstalled the emperor in 1868 decided to "separate" Shinto from Buddhism. Until that time, generally speaking, Buddhist temples served as stewards of many "Shinto" sites. It was syncretic, as you said.I don't think that's correct. You seem to be describing "State Shinto," which was relatively recently invented nationalist ideology that borrowed from Shinto. Shinto encompasses the indigenous religious practices of Japan, and is distinct from Buddhism, which was a later import from China.
From Wikipedia:
The definition of State Shinto requires distinction from the term "Shinto," which was one aspect of a set of nationalist symbols integrated into the State Shinto ideology....most contemporary scholars use the term "Shrine Shinto" to refer to the majority of Shinto shrines which were outside of State Shinto influence, leaving "State Shinto" to refer to shrines and practices deliberately intended to reflect state ideology.....
Most generally, State Shinto refers to any use of Shinto practices incorporated into the national ideology during the Meiji period starting in 1868. It is often described as any state-supported, Shinto-inspired ideology or practice intended to inspire national integration, unity, and loyalty. State Shinto is also understood to refer to the state rituals and ideology of Emperor-worship, which was not a traditional emphasis of Shinto...posted by cosmic.osmo at 10:43 AM on June 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
Not sure how comfortable I am with calling a non-white religion "mumbo-jumbo". Are you going to be calling for missionaries to be sent to Japan next? That's a very Victorian way of describing a non-abrahamic religion.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [13 favorites]
freecellwizard: "Also Reincarnated Amaterasu is a totally awesome light team card."
hmu 303,777,322
posted by boo_radley at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
hmu 303,777,322
posted by boo_radley at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
cosmic.osmo, yes, they're referring to State Shinto, but it's not like we aren't still living with the lingering effects of that period. The relatively rigid distinction between Buddhist and Shinto facilities and rituals we see today is in large part a consequence of that change, and the syncretic stuff that didn't get affected as much, such as Shugendō and the Dewa Sanzan, is somewhat unusual/marginal.
posted by fifthrider at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by fifthrider at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
This is going to be second hand, so there will be errors (my fiancee is getting her PhD on Japanese religion in the Nara period). Japan has had reigning Empresses. Seven of them. Admittedly, a good number of them became reigning Empress after the deaths of their husbands. Most were in the early years (8-10th centuries), but the last one of them was in the 18th century. So there is a good deal of precedent for women inheriting the throne. Admittedly, the most recent Empresses regnant were during the Shogunate, so the amount of power they actually had was limited.
posted by Hactar at 12:08 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 12:08 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Not sure how comfortable I am with calling a non-white religion "mumbo-jumbo". Are you going to be calling for missionaries to be sent to Japan next? That's a very Victorian way of describing a non-abrahamic religion.
What if we call the White and/or Abrahamic ones "mumbo-jumbo" too?
posted by mystyk at 12:20 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
What if we call the White and/or Abrahamic ones "mumbo-jumbo" too?
posted by mystyk at 12:20 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
As always: Before making a comment like that, consider what power disparities you might be reinforcing, and consider whether it's actually relevant to the topic at hand.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:37 PM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 12:37 PM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
As for what Japanese people "really believe", that's often difficult to pin down as many/most Japanese don't have the same aversion to performative religion that many Westerners do. You go to the shrine on New Year because that's what you do. It's proper behavior. Faith, in the Western, "I believe in Jesus", type stuff is simply not part of the equation. Asking whether or not the person who goes to the shrine actually believes there is a god there listening to prayers is often simply asking the wrong question.
I doubt very much there are many Japanese who believe as a factual matter that the Emperor is descended from Amaterasu. But at the same time a great many would probably say that he was if asked in a polls, because being Japanese means saying the Emperor is descended from Amaterasu. But it's a category error to put that in the same sort of belief/faith box that, say, a Creationist would be using if they said they thought all humans were descended from Noah.
Proper behavior is a big part of Japanese culture. A good example is social drunkenness. You'll sometimes see a group of drunken revelers leaving a bar, splitting up, and one (or more, or sometimes all) will straighten up and seem perfectly sober once they leave the group. Because "being drunk" is what you do in that social situation so whether they actually were drunk or not they'll "be drunk".
Same goes for visiting shrines on New Years and other occasions, praying to the gods, having a Shinto wedding and a Buddhist funeral, and saying that the Emperor is descended from Amaterasu. It's at least as much expected social behavior as it is a matter of what we'd term faith or belief.
I've often thought that the actual religion of Japan is being Japanese.
posted by sotonohito at 12:46 PM on June 9, 2017 [38 favorites]
I doubt very much there are many Japanese who believe as a factual matter that the Emperor is descended from Amaterasu. But at the same time a great many would probably say that he was if asked in a polls, because being Japanese means saying the Emperor is descended from Amaterasu. But it's a category error to put that in the same sort of belief/faith box that, say, a Creationist would be using if they said they thought all humans were descended from Noah.
Proper behavior is a big part of Japanese culture. A good example is social drunkenness. You'll sometimes see a group of drunken revelers leaving a bar, splitting up, and one (or more, or sometimes all) will straighten up and seem perfectly sober once they leave the group. Because "being drunk" is what you do in that social situation so whether they actually were drunk or not they'll "be drunk".
Same goes for visiting shrines on New Years and other occasions, praying to the gods, having a Shinto wedding and a Buddhist funeral, and saying that the Emperor is descended from Amaterasu. It's at least as much expected social behavior as it is a matter of what we'd term faith or belief.
I've often thought that the actual religion of Japan is being Japanese.
posted by sotonohito at 12:46 PM on June 9, 2017 [38 favorites]
Not sure how comfortable I am with calling a non-white religion "mumbo-jumbo". Are you going to be calling for missionaries to be sent to Japan next? That's a very Victorian way of describing a non-abrahamic religion.
I'm pretty sure My Dad's comment was actually trying make a distinction fairly similar to that made by cosmic.osmo between "state Shinto" (systematized in support of imperial ideology) and Japanese religious traditions as average people experience and practice them. And I'm pretty sure it was the former which he was referring to disparagingly:
This:
I don't know what regular Japanese people actually think about that sort of thing (the emperor being the descendent of the sun god etc).
Versus this:
I do know that when my wife and my mother-in-law go to the local shrine to pray for something, they genuinely believe they are communicating with the god of that particular shrine. And they are both pretty regular Japanese people. And if they believe it, so do I. While I am in Japan. I tend to have dual points of view, which personally I find interesting about myself.
(I wouldn't have any idea whether he's right about the distinction or the terminology I just think what he was actually saying is a little more sophisticated than it's been interpreted as being.)
posted by atoxyl at 1:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure My Dad's comment was actually trying make a distinction fairly similar to that made by cosmic.osmo between "state Shinto" (systematized in support of imperial ideology) and Japanese religious traditions as average people experience and practice them. And I'm pretty sure it was the former which he was referring to disparagingly:
This:
I don't know what regular Japanese people actually think about that sort of thing (the emperor being the descendent of the sun god etc).
Versus this:
I do know that when my wife and my mother-in-law go to the local shrine to pray for something, they genuinely believe they are communicating with the god of that particular shrine. And they are both pretty regular Japanese people. And if they believe it, so do I. While I am in Japan. I tend to have dual points of view, which personally I find interesting about myself.
(I wouldn't have any idea whether he's right about the distinction or the terminology I just think what he was actually saying is a little more sophisticated than it's been interpreted as being.)
posted by atoxyl at 1:05 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
isn't it pretty common for Japanese people, in various circumstances, to participate in ceremonies of all three religions?
Yes and no. One of these things is not like the other. Shinto and Buddhist rituals are taken fairly seriously by a largish population (funerals are usually Buddhist, for example). The exact literalness of belief in them varies and is a little complicated to compare to, say, American Christians. (It's not that people, for the most part, don't believe, but the centralness of it in their life is different).
Christianity, however, aside from a very tiny minority, is not practiced/believed in. It is common to have "Christian" style weddings, but these are basically cosplay, like having a Klingon wedding.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:11 PM on June 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
Yes and no. One of these things is not like the other. Shinto and Buddhist rituals are taken fairly seriously by a largish population (funerals are usually Buddhist, for example). The exact literalness of belief in them varies and is a little complicated to compare to, say, American Christians. (It's not that people, for the most part, don't believe, but the centralness of it in their life is different).
Christianity, however, aside from a very tiny minority, is not practiced/believed in. It is common to have "Christian" style weddings, but these are basically cosplay, like having a Klingon wedding.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:11 PM on June 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
> Probably more like the Meiji Restoration. The shogun was more important than the emperor throughout the Edo Period before that time.
Yeah, but everything changed in 1945 when the Americans (re)wrote the Constitution.
This is true, but as a factual/legal matter the reason the Emperor "can't abdicate" is because of the 1889 Imperial Household Law.
天皇崩スルトキハ皇嗣卽チ踐祚シ祖宗ノ神器ヲ承ク
"When the Emperor dies, the heir accedes and receives the ancestral regalia," basically. So even if the reigning Emperor declares that he isn't Emperor any more, constitutionally it has no effect. This basic idea + interpretation has remained in the relevant laws since, although as My Dad says the actual laws involved changed dramatically after WWII. Thus the need for a special legal exception. It wasn't just "Emperors don't abdicate, it isn't done"--there was literally no legal recognition of abdication.
posted by No-sword at 3:08 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yeah, but everything changed in 1945 when the Americans (re)wrote the Constitution.
This is true, but as a factual/legal matter the reason the Emperor "can't abdicate" is because of the 1889 Imperial Household Law.
天皇崩スルトキハ皇嗣卽チ踐祚シ祖宗ノ神器ヲ承ク
"When the Emperor dies, the heir accedes and receives the ancestral regalia," basically. So even if the reigning Emperor declares that he isn't Emperor any more, constitutionally it has no effect. This basic idea + interpretation has remained in the relevant laws since, although as My Dad says the actual laws involved changed dramatically after WWII. Thus the need for a special legal exception. It wasn't just "Emperors don't abdicate, it isn't done"--there was literally no legal recognition of abdication.
posted by No-sword at 3:08 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't think that's correct. You seem to be describing "State Shinto,"
For sure. But, before "State Shinto", there wasn't any such thing as "Shinto", exactly. Every single community in Japan, and continues to be home to, highly local deities. These were, for the most part, illiterate farming societies. How could you have a "Shinto" ("the way of the gods") with no practice? Some of the rituals were codified, but only for the elites who could read, and a lot of those "Shinto ceremonies" would have come from classical Chinese texts about geomancy and so on.
>>Not sure how comfortable I am with calling a non-white religion "mumbo-jumbo". Are you going to be calling for missionaries to be sent to Japan next? That's a very Victorian way of describing a non-abrahamic religion.
Nah, I just have a hard time taking contemporary "Shinto" seriously. It's completely artificial, manufactured, chauvinist horse-puckey. It's kind of like saying "I don't believe in organized religion".
The god my wife and MIL pray to, Izasawaknomikoto, has been enshrined and worshipped since about the year 200. That's according to the Kojiki, which is kind of an unreliable source. There are gods like that all over Japan (basically anywhere there is a well or spring, which is a lot of places).
posted by My Dad at 4:23 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
For sure. But, before "State Shinto", there wasn't any such thing as "Shinto", exactly. Every single community in Japan, and continues to be home to, highly local deities. These were, for the most part, illiterate farming societies. How could you have a "Shinto" ("the way of the gods") with no practice? Some of the rituals were codified, but only for the elites who could read, and a lot of those "Shinto ceremonies" would have come from classical Chinese texts about geomancy and so on.
>>Not sure how comfortable I am with calling a non-white religion "mumbo-jumbo". Are you going to be calling for missionaries to be sent to Japan next? That's a very Victorian way of describing a non-abrahamic religion.
Nah, I just have a hard time taking contemporary "Shinto" seriously. It's completely artificial, manufactured, chauvinist horse-puckey. It's kind of like saying "I don't believe in organized religion".
The god my wife and MIL pray to, Izasawaknomikoto, has been enshrined and worshipped since about the year 200. That's according to the Kojiki, which is kind of an unreliable source. There are gods like that all over Japan (basically anywhere there is a well or spring, which is a lot of places).
posted by My Dad at 4:23 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
This discussion makes me think of the folks' shrine visit in the documentary on the Satoyama lake region. (NHK with japanese audio and/or David Attenborough, context)
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:56 PM on June 9, 2017
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:56 PM on June 9, 2017
I will note, on topic, that there were reigning Empresses in Japan's past. Some are probably mythic, but others are well within recorded written history. The most recent was Go-Sakuramachi and she was the reigning Empress in 1771.
The rigid opposition to a woman sitting on the throne you see among some conservative Japanese masquerades as respect for history or tradition, but it's actually ahistoric in that women have been on the throne in the past.
I think, as we have better and better geriatric care, that as with Popes resigning, we'll see Imperial Household Law revised to allow for abdication. That probably won't face too much opposition as Japan has a **LONG** history of Emperors resigning, and it's kind of cruel to forbid a very old man from retiring.
Letting women reign I wouldn't expect to see for a long time despite the relatively recent history of reigning women. Compared to the USA, Japan is often shockingly sexist, and the conservatives in Japan are, if not more conservative, more retrograde.
IIRC back in 2006 when it wasn't yet known that there would be a male heir there was talk among the conservatives of allowing a gap in the Imperial succession rather than allowing a woman to sit on the Chrysanthemum Throne. So, yeah. Very retrograde and very willing to fight for their cause.
Worse, Japan has a culture of aversion to change, so the fact that the Imperial Household Law prohibits women from inheriting the throne will have a lot of cultural inertia even among people who otherwise wouldn't really care.
posted by sotonohito at 7:23 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
The rigid opposition to a woman sitting on the throne you see among some conservative Japanese masquerades as respect for history or tradition, but it's actually ahistoric in that women have been on the throne in the past.
I think, as we have better and better geriatric care, that as with Popes resigning, we'll see Imperial Household Law revised to allow for abdication. That probably won't face too much opposition as Japan has a **LONG** history of Emperors resigning, and it's kind of cruel to forbid a very old man from retiring.
Letting women reign I wouldn't expect to see for a long time despite the relatively recent history of reigning women. Compared to the USA, Japan is often shockingly sexist, and the conservatives in Japan are, if not more conservative, more retrograde.
IIRC back in 2006 when it wasn't yet known that there would be a male heir there was talk among the conservatives of allowing a gap in the Imperial succession rather than allowing a woman to sit on the Chrysanthemum Throne. So, yeah. Very retrograde and very willing to fight for their cause.
Worse, Japan has a culture of aversion to change, so the fact that the Imperial Household Law prohibits women from inheriting the throne will have a lot of cultural inertia even among people who otherwise wouldn't really care.
posted by sotonohito at 7:23 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
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posted by Melismata at 7:44 AM on June 9, 2017 [14 favorites]