"He was the James Brown of punk, the way he whipped his band into shape"
January 29, 2019 9:34 AM   Subscribe

Get your suits off and get your jeans on for The Oral History of The Fall's Mark E. Smith from Vice UK.

Simon Wolstencroft: "He didn't like people who wore baseball hats, shorts, flares, ponytails or people with laptops. He actually sacked a tour manager for wearing shorts and having a laptop."

Dave Spurr: "There would be hell to pay if the rider wasn't there: 60 Benson and Hedges, a crate of Holsten Pils, two bottles of champagne and a bottle of scotch. I remember Mark having champagne and Opal Fruits for breakfast once, and that being quite a healthy breakfast order."

Paul Hanley: "You weren't going on tour to have fun. He wasn't my friend, he was my employer."

Kay Carroll: "I was on acid when Mark walked in, and I remember him looking like Napoleon.
posted by porn in the woods (31 comments total) 14 users marked this as a favorite
 
You don't have to be weird to be wired
posted by jcruelty at 9:59 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]


You don't have to be weird to be weird
posted by jcruelty at 9:59 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]


Now that we've had a few years of Trump in the White House and had a hard look at Harvey Weinstein's management style, it's really tough to see this as the sort of affectionate recollection that it's being presented as.

I can remember a time when I would have lapped this up as eccentric-genius-porn, but now it just reads as cruel and manipulative. Sure, a lot of insanely talented people are really fucked up.

But rather than seeing it as a necessary tradeoff, now I just think that there are a lot of really fucked up people out there and the ones that are mega-talented are able to manage to have careers despite treating people like garbage.
posted by chinese_fashion at 10:09 AM on January 29, 2019 [18 favorites]


Yeah, well said chinese_fashion, there's a cult of personality around the fall that is unwarranted, considering his output is the very definition of throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.
posted by The River Ivel at 10:31 AM on January 29, 2019 [4 favorites]


I started working with a guy of a certain age who's a big Anglophile. We were talking about our favorite bands, and he mentioned that his first concert was Duran Duran at the Worcester Centrum.

As a fan of 80s British music, I figured I'd see if we had any favorite bands in common.

So I asked him if he listened to The Fall.

He refused to believe that this was a real band. He later listened to "Hit the North" on Spotify and recanted a bit; he now thinks that they're a Spinal Tap-esque imaginary joke band.
posted by pxe2000 at 10:57 AM on January 29, 2019 [7 favorites]


I'm not a huge Mark E. Smith or The Fall fan but I did find this funny:
When they got booked to do Jools Holland, Mark had them write in the contract that no "boogie woogie" piano would be allowed.
I had this acquaintance, a hipster in the worst possible ways, who I bumped into when the Fall last played in Toronto. He told me that he had just seen them and I asked how the concert was - his disappointed review was "I didn't recognise any of the songs."
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:14 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]


Yeah, well said chinese_fashion, there's a cult of personality around the fall that is unwarranted ...

I'd amend that to "there's a cult of personality around MES," because, in fact, without everyone else in the band, it's quite possible that the Fall would've been Smith and someone's Granny on bongos. I mean, I love the Fall—though I'm not nearly the obssessive some friends of mine have been—but they're pretty much the paradigmatic case of how a brilliant, charismatic, and frequently awful man needs the talents and patience of the people (and wives!) around him to pursue his vision.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:20 AM on January 29, 2019 [4 favorites]


All of which is to say, I guess, that the Fall was always more than MES. The problem with much of what's written about them is the failure to write that, in lieu of colorful stories about Mark's bad behavior.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:35 AM on January 29, 2019 [4 favorites]


But, really, if there's any evidence of Smith's "genius," it's that somehow he had something that made people still want to work with him despite everything. Because I've known a few musicians who behaved like just MES and none of them even ever made it to a record deal.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:43 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]


considering his output is the very definition of throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

See, you're not completely wrong, but here's why The Fall continues to be the essence of the undefinable. Everyone agrees that they did a bunch of stuff and only some of it works. But nobody can completely agree on which stuff that is.

Somewhere, there is a diagram that proves undeniably which parts of The Fall are important and which aren't. But I suspect to gaze upon it is to go insane.
posted by lumpenprole at 11:58 AM on January 29, 2019 [14 favorites]


"The Very Definition of Throwing Shit at the Wall" is actually one of my favorite songs by the Fall!
posted by neroli at 12:01 PM on January 29, 2019 [10 favorites]


considering his output is the very definition of throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks

While that is a not entirely inaccurate image, the great thing about the Fall is just how unexpectedly interesting some of that shit on the wall turned out to be. MES could throw shit like no other.
posted by N-stoff at 12:08 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]


Gonna drop some music in here: Tempo House
posted by sjswitzer at 12:13 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]


Maybe I've just got crabs on the brain but I keep imagining, what if these were all stories about being in a band with a particularly mercurial coconut crab.

I was on acid when the coconut crab walked in, and I remember him looking like Napoleon.
-Kay Caroll

I was a bit scared about meeting him, as I remember beforehand, Dave Bush saying he hated being in the group with the crab, and that the crab had nearly decapitated him with his claw.
-Julia Adamson

He gave me a big hug, which was the last thing I was expecting from a coconut crab.
-Geoff Travis

He was extremely polite, looking quite dapper – very charming and funny. Quite reserved in the way that he was, until he'd got the measure of you. Then, once he knew you – well, you got the claws just like everyone else.
-Marcia Schofield

I must have gone through about eight bass amps in that band, blowing all of them. The crab kept messing about with the volumes and turning it off mid-set. One time, he snipped right through my lead so I couldn't play at all, but when the crab walked onstage and the crowd went insane... I've never felt anything like that before.
-Steve Trafford

It was organised chaos; he definitely put people together who didn't get on and were at each other's throats, and were often deathly afraid of crabs. At times it seemed like, "This is not conducive to being creative," but then, in hindsight, you can see that tension created great things. There was a method, but at the same time I think he liked to torture people with his claws. We actually wrote a really good album that never came out, called Crabbed. -Steve Trafford

When we were recording and just hitting our stride, he'd suddenly insist on going to the beach, or we'd be instructed not to go into the studio, or he'd just start hacking at things with his claws. It's his way of taking control of the situation. When nobody knows what is happening and the crab is instigating it, then the crab is in control. The crab thrives in those atmospheres. - Pete Greenway

You wouldn't last five minutes with the crab if you're precious. It's a good way to work, knowing that anything could get pinched through at any moment. - Keiron Melling

The crab is a master of editing, and editing is as important as writing. - Brix Crab Start

Due to being a crab, he was quite immobile because the studio was up a flight of stairs. It was residential and there were rooms across the yard, but it was stone chippings and gravel, so his little crab legs really struggled on it. He'd scribble notes to send to us on bits of torn-off newspapers and the letters housekeeping kept sending him to gain access to clean his room. One day, he came stumbling up to the live room. I was like, "oh shit it's the crab" and he was batting me away like a pesky fly. He opened the door and was like, [crab clicking sounds]. The band was in full flow recording, sounding great, really tight. And they all stopped and just stared at this crab waddling in. - Ross Orton

Putting a spanner in the works was a recurring theme with the crab. Just when you thought you might get on Top of the Pops, they'd realize he was a crab. We got thrown off a major label because the crab told them to fuck off. - Simon Wolstonecraft

He was always really polite, actually. Despite the chaos, he knew what he was doing. There was always this picture of the crab being this angry and dictatorial animal, but he was bloody funny. - Simon "Ding" Archer

He was also very sensitive, more so than people realise. - Elena Polou

The biggest thing I miss about that crab is that he was the only person who would come into my studio and challenge me on every level, from opening the door to closing it. - Ding

He was not jaded creatively. He had so much more to offer. I can't help but think of the lyrics to "Psykick Dancehall" right now: "When I'm dead and gone / My exoskeleton will live on / In coconuts on beaches through the years / People will dance to my waves". - Elena Poulou
posted by anazgnos at 1:21 PM on January 29, 2019 [26 favorites]


I don't know, I mean, I don't think being a drunk & drugged out lunatic is particularly unusual for being in a rock and roll band. He was definitely not a serial rapist or traitor politician, so the above comparison seems a BIT harsh.

I always thought he was brilliant and really, really funny. And frankly, for a guy I met exactly twice in my life, I miss him a lot.

To be fair, I am completely biased as I am a massive Fall fan and my handle is taken from one of their songs.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 1:23 PM on January 29, 2019 [5 favorites]


Also, anazgnos, that's really funny and strangely accurate
posted by SystematicAbuse at 1:27 PM on January 29, 2019


He refused to believe that this was a real band. He later listened to "Hit the North" on Spotify and recanted a bit; he now thinks that they're a Spinal Tap-esque imaginary joke band.

I was in college in the '80s and The Fall would have been a band that I would have been in to if I'd known anything about them. I'm pretty sure that I heard about them first here on Metafilter. Looking at their discography, it doesn't look like they ever charted here in the US and I doubt that their discs make it to Central Pennsylvania where I was at the time.
posted by octothorpe at 1:44 PM on January 29, 2019


The Fall had videos on 120 Minutes and appeared on IRS’ The Cutting Edge, so MTV gave them a tiny bit of promotion in the mid/late 80s. Outside of college radio, no one heard ‘em.
posted by porn in the woods at 2:03 PM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]


OMG anazgnos - I am a work and literally had to stop myself snorting with laughter about 5 times reading your post!

This in particular nearly put me over the edge! "Little crab legs"!!

Due to being a crab, he was quite immobile because the studio was up a flight of stairs. It was residential and there were rooms across the yard, but it was stone chippings and gravel, so his little crab legs really struggled on it. He'd scribble notes to send to us on bits of torn-off newspapers and the letters housekeeping kept sending him to gain access to clean his room. One day, he came stumbling up to the live room. I was like, "oh shit it's the crab" and he was batting me away like a pesky fly. He opened the door and was like, [crab clicking sounds]. The band was in full flow recording, sounding great, really tight. And they all stopped and just stared at this crab waddling in. - Ross Orton
posted by maupuia at 2:15 PM on January 29, 2019


This 'MES as crab' thing needs to be turned into a comic book
posted by SystematicAbuse at 2:24 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]


I don't think being a drunk & drugged out lunatic is particularly unusual for being in a rock and roll band. He was definitely not a serial rapist or traitor politician, so the above comparison seems a BIT harsh.

I mean, I guess he was not specifically either of those things, but he was arrested for choking, punching, and kicking his girlfriend. We've spent way too long overlooking the cruelty and destructiveness of great men so we can get on with celebrating their genius. It's fine to love his music or appreciate his attitude towards art and culture, but I think its a mistake not to also acknowledge the wreckage he often left in his wake.
posted by parallellines at 2:27 PM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]


I am in no way implying he was any sort of paragon of morality. He could rightly be viewed as a monster. He was addicted to speed for 40 years and drank whiskey for breakfast. He was megalomaniacal and controlling, manipulative, and cruel.

Still, to compare him to Weinstein or Trump seems pretty unfair. That was my only suggestion.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 2:42 PM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]


SystematicAbuse - I was referring to Trump's management style, specifically pitting people against one another, creating chaos so that he can be in control and manipulating people into fishing each other in order to somehow produce "magic" from the sparks. It's what has led to the sort of burnout we see in the White House and considering that musicians rotated in and out of the Fall, I think the comparison might be apt.

Weinstein is better known for his raping, but he was also a bully who abused his colleagues in other ways and people tolerated it because he made "magic." Scott Rudin might be a better comparison.
posted by chinese_fashion at 3:08 PM on January 29, 2019


"Nothing in the history of pop has been remotely like the Fall. Mark E Smith is not only the writer of lyrics that often boast more ideas in a verse than most bands contrive for an LP, but is also credited with what is often said about Viz, that it isn’t as funny as it used to be. Fall devotees are accustomed to hearing similar assessments of their favourite band but believe that, through a bewildering number of personnel changes, the Fall remains the band by which all others must be judged. Their dozens of records crawl with anger, insults, waspish poetry and roaring guitar/bass/drums/keyboards-driven music some have styled Manc-a-billy after their home town. We the faithful can argue that anything, from 1979’s Live At the Witch Trials to last year’s The Light User Syndrome, might be the best. Smith’s press interviews – ranting against political correctness and students (the song "Hey, Student" from the 1994 LP 'Middle Class Revolt' is a Fall classic) – make marvellous reading."

- John Peel, May 25, 1997

For those interested in learning more, enter The Wonderful and Frightening World of Mark E. Smith. You have been warned.
posted by antihostile at 4:31 PM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]


The Fall blurred the frame distinguishing between interesting & boring.

(I'd made a long comment about various conceptual aspects, & how MES was annoying but talented, but it was deleted by mistake, ask me more;)
posted by ovvl at 4:57 PM on January 29, 2019


Glad I'm not the only one in this thread with a Fall lyric as a username.

Cheers, antihostile.

Notebooks out plagiarists!
posted by SystematicAbuse at 6:49 PM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]


A long time ago I read a piece based on an interview with Mark E Smith. All I can remember is that he spent the entire conversation showing off his new shoes and pestering the interviewer to ask him where he'd bought them. When the interviewer finally caved in and asked the question, Mark grinned and replied, "From the shoe shop!" and walked out of the pub.

Anyway, here's a nice tribute video by a friend of Mark's.
posted by ZipRibbons at 12:44 AM on January 30, 2019 [1 favorite]


This 'MES as crab' thing needs to be turned into a comic book

One morning, when Mark E. Smith woke from troubled dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a wonderful, frightening crab.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:49 AM on January 30, 2019 [1 favorite]


I suppose
It just goes to show
The Lie Dream
of the Casino Soul Scene
posted by sydnius at 7:27 AM on January 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


Saw them play in Houston once a long time ago and a friend was friends with the guy who was their tour manager for the southern leg of this particular tour. So we were hanging out before the show and I asked what MES was like, and the guy said he was like a Mr. Burns that continually tried to fight you.

I laughed, and then he was like "seriously though, never again."
posted by lefty lucky cat at 11:30 AM on January 30, 2019


Inspired to sign up here in this thread. Thanks.

Spun 3 Albums of theirs on the tube for a while after reading the thread. I've not watched the doc but I like what I have heard more than what I read.
posted by CFH at 7:56 PM on January 31, 2019 [2 favorites]


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