"tom holland could run me over with a truck and I would say thank you"
June 21, 2019 10:51 AM Subscribe
The first time I noticed that quite a lot of people on the Internet seemed to be begging celebrities to kill them was a couple of years ago. “Can lana del rey step on my throat already,” one person tweeted. “Snap my neck and hide my body,” another announced, when Lady Gaga posted a new profile photo. [...] One takeaway from all this is that young people really love celebrities. Another is that we’re craving unmediated connection so desperately that we would accept it in the form of murder. It’s also possible that we simply want to die.Love, Death, and Begging for Celebrities to Kill You
people who I'd entrust to kill me appropriately:
- St Vincent
- David Lynch
- Tilda Swinton
people who I'd shrug and accept death from to escape late stage capitalism:
- literally anyone
posted by a halcyon day at 11:00 AM on June 21, 2019 [30 favorites]
- St Vincent
- David Lynch
- Tilda Swinton
people who I'd shrug and accept death from to escape late stage capitalism:
- literally anyone
posted by a halcyon day at 11:00 AM on June 21, 2019 [30 favorites]
I'll settle for Bjork's unknown, bitter, sister kicking the crap out of me at Monopoly
posted by thelonius at 11:04 AM on June 21, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 11:04 AM on June 21, 2019 [21 favorites]
what's killing me is the new gurter's paywall
posted by Foci for Analysis at 11:09 AM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 11:09 AM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
At last, a new competiton for the Four Yorkshiremen -- how creatively horribly each would allow a given celebrity to kill them.
posted by zaixfeep at 11:09 AM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 11:09 AM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
It's weird - this type of hyperbole doesn't resonate with me at all, not even in that "I would like to perform being Very Online" way that things usually do.
It's funny that people talk about it as queer rhetoric, because I think that the reason it doesn't work for me is that I feel like people actually would kill me or hurt me and not care; I feel like most of society holds people like me in hatred and contempt and so joking about some rich, famous person hurting me to amuse themselves feels a little bit too on the nose. It feels unchancey to joke about being run over, for instance, because I've had some scary run-ins with homophobic people while I'm on my bike, and I feel like I actually could get run over with a truck because someone thought it would be fun.
Also I don't like celebrities, but that's a generational thing.
posted by Frowner at 11:14 AM on June 21, 2019 [31 favorites]
It's funny that people talk about it as queer rhetoric, because I think that the reason it doesn't work for me is that I feel like people actually would kill me or hurt me and not care; I feel like most of society holds people like me in hatred and contempt and so joking about some rich, famous person hurting me to amuse themselves feels a little bit too on the nose. It feels unchancey to joke about being run over, for instance, because I've had some scary run-ins with homophobic people while I'm on my bike, and I feel like I actually could get run over with a truck because someone thought it would be fun.
Also I don't like celebrities, but that's a generational thing.
posted by Frowner at 11:14 AM on June 21, 2019 [31 favorites]
All I can say is that this is a very weird Tom Holland two-fer.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:15 AM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:15 AM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
the squirrel has not yet found the acorn that will grow into the tree that will provide the timbers for the desk of the agent who will one day represent the celebrity who can kill me!
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:27 AM on June 21, 2019 [53 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:27 AM on June 21, 2019 [53 favorites]
the squirrel has not yet found the acorn that will grow into the tree that will provide the timbers for the desk of the agent who will one day represent the celebrity who can kill me!
weird flex but ok
posted by clockzero at 11:32 AM on June 21, 2019 [18 favorites]
weird flex but ok
posted by clockzero at 11:32 AM on June 21, 2019 [18 favorites]
some rich, famous person hurting me to amuse themselves
ok but it's not for THEM to amuse themselves, it's for OUR entertainment
posted by poffin boffin at 11:32 AM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
ok but it's not for THEM to amuse themselves, it's for OUR entertainment
posted by poffin boffin at 11:32 AM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
Something something Amusing Ourselves to Death.
posted by box at 11:37 AM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 11:37 AM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Letting people kill you is so passive. Not kicking ____ out of bed for eating crackers allowed for some agency.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:38 AM on June 21, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:38 AM on June 21, 2019 [9 favorites]
when i say i want to be crushed to death by ricky whittle's firm glorious manbosoms it is not because i think he's going to enjoy it, in fact i am quite certain he would not, he is a very nice person who probably harbors no murderous intentions towards me or anyone else. it is for ME. MY needs. which are to be crushed to death by ricky whittle's firm glorious manbosoms.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:38 AM on June 21, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:38 AM on June 21, 2019 [28 favorites]
One element to this trope that seems rather foundational to me is completely overlooked by this article in its various attempts to explain why people say these kinds of things: it's funny! Not that that's ever ALL that's going on, but it's definitely part of this in my view. The suicidal extravagance of these public statements of fandom has a wide streak of camp, with its beautiful way of embracing enthusiasms while mocking them at the same time. I think this type of humor is very prevalent in young social media scenes, a sort of candied nihilism. A unicorn shitting rainbows. I control-F'd for irony and got zero hits. I just don't think the article writer got it.
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 11:38 AM on June 21, 2019 [42 favorites]
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 11:38 AM on June 21, 2019 [42 favorites]
I just watched some of Pink Flamingos and I really would let Divine kill me in a fiery doom of camp. Also Cersei Lannister.
posted by yueliang at 11:41 AM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 11:41 AM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
KMFDM, "Hole in the Wall", 1999. Probably there are earlier versions of this...
posted by Foosnark at 11:43 AM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 11:43 AM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
Regardless of how people choose to express it, I'm finding this unmitigated celebrity worship, even with a veneer of irony, increasingly unsettling. I even see it from people who consider themselves leftist or anticapitalist. Is any critique of celebrity culture just too passe now?
posted by noxperpetua at 11:50 AM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by noxperpetua at 11:50 AM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
I control-F'd for irony and got zero hits. I just don't think the article writer got it.
exactly this, also a problem in the comments clearly.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:52 AM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
exactly this, also a problem in the comments clearly.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:52 AM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
As Heather Chandler (Heathers, 1988) might say, fuck me gently with a chainsaw.
posted by ejs at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by ejs at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
One element to this trope that seems rather foundational to me is completely overlooked by this article in its various attempts to explain why people say these kinds of things: it's funny! Not that that's ever ALL that's going on, but it's definitely part of this in my view. The suicidal extravagance of these public statements of fandom has a wide streak of camp, with its beautiful way of embracing enthusiasms while mocking them at the same time. I think this type of humor is very prevalent in young social media scenes, a sort of candied nihilism. A unicorn shitting rainbows. I control-F'd for irony and got zero hits. I just don't think the article writer got it.
I mean, I think this is exactly it; it's a way to foreclose being mocked for, like, liking famous people and/or for having "queer" desires. It's the artifact of an internet culture which basically runs on mockery, both the actually mean kind and the pretend mean kind.
For me, it feels like bad luck to joke about how you want something bad to happen to you that could actually happen to you (I mean, just the getting run over part, not the famous people part; I suppose I could joke about the famous people.)
I feel like it's also a generational divide. Like, when I was a young whipper-snapper, it was not trendy to be into famous people - being into famous people was the normie thing. It's not just that you would have to disguise your extreme admiration for, I dunno, Kurt Cobain or someone by pretending that you'd like him to murder you; it's that you really wouldn't express such a thing at all.
The only thing that makes me feel really, really separated from everyone under about forty is when I run into some, like, masked-up antifa person who is super into movie stars. Those encounters, which are not rare, still always make me feel like I've been dropped into the manuscript of the next William Gibson novel. Chatting with antifa person about how much they wish they could buy the most recent Gucci collection? A thing that has actually happened to me, and not a thing that would have happened in, say, 1998. (Admittedly Gucci was a lot more hideous in 1998.)
posted by Frowner at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2019 [18 favorites]
I mean, I think this is exactly it; it's a way to foreclose being mocked for, like, liking famous people and/or for having "queer" desires. It's the artifact of an internet culture which basically runs on mockery, both the actually mean kind and the pretend mean kind.
For me, it feels like bad luck to joke about how you want something bad to happen to you that could actually happen to you (I mean, just the getting run over part, not the famous people part; I suppose I could joke about the famous people.)
I feel like it's also a generational divide. Like, when I was a young whipper-snapper, it was not trendy to be into famous people - being into famous people was the normie thing. It's not just that you would have to disguise your extreme admiration for, I dunno, Kurt Cobain or someone by pretending that you'd like him to murder you; it's that you really wouldn't express such a thing at all.
The only thing that makes me feel really, really separated from everyone under about forty is when I run into some, like, masked-up antifa person who is super into movie stars. Those encounters, which are not rare, still always make me feel like I've been dropped into the manuscript of the next William Gibson novel. Chatting with antifa person about how much they wish they could buy the most recent Gucci collection? A thing that has actually happened to me, and not a thing that would have happened in, say, 1998. (Admittedly Gucci was a lot more hideous in 1998.)
posted by Frowner at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2019 [18 favorites]
anyway I was hoping this thread would quickly fill up with mefites' stories of narrowly escaping death at the hands of murderously famous celebrity assassins; for my own part I was once nearly run over in a crosswalk by a local politician and it was pretty underwhelming honestly
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:57 AM on June 21, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:57 AM on June 21, 2019 [16 favorites]
See, I'm only this fond of celebrities who seem to have a core of wholesomeness that would prevent them killing anyone -- except perhaps for my crush on Ron Perlman, who even now could probably take out a row of Proud Boys with one swing of his arm.
It's a classic defense mechanism and/or seed of kink, begging for the intimacy of cruelty rather than the absence of intimacy at all. I'm afraid I know it better than I like, but I don't want to joke about it in someone's Twitter mentions.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:01 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
It's a classic defense mechanism and/or seed of kink, begging for the intimacy of cruelty rather than the absence of intimacy at all. I'm afraid I know it better than I like, but I don't want to joke about it in someone's Twitter mentions.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:01 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
Uh...I narrowly escaped having famous historian David Roediger forget who I was at a protest once. He remembered that I'd been in his seminar just before things would have gotten really awkward. It would have been social death, I guess.
posted by Frowner at 12:02 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 12:02 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
that could actually happen to you
there is a less than zero chance of me being crushed to death by the magnificent muscular thighs of any member of the USWNT. this is a false assertion. alas.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:03 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
there is a less than zero chance of me being crushed to death by the magnificent muscular thighs of any member of the USWNT. this is a false assertion. alas.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:03 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
A famous scientist stepped on my foot once. (I mean, famous for the field.) Her toes were not especially muscular, or at least she wasn't flexing them or anything.
posted by Frowner at 12:06 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 12:06 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
I have a friend who’s wife left him during his kidney failure/dialysis/transplant/rejection saga about ten years ago, and he started saying things like “ugh I just want Rihanna to shoot me in the face” during that trial... maybe there’s something to it.
posted by infinitewindow at 12:10 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 12:10 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
Mark Mothersbaugh once grabbed me by the collar of my coveralls and pulled me towards him. He was checking to see if they were the same kind they wore on stage for the Hardcore DEVO Tour in 2014.
posted by SansPoint at 12:13 PM on June 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 12:13 PM on June 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
I control-F'd for "little death" or "petite mort" and got no hits. Or, uh, is it just me who's using "murder me with your beautiful thighs" type thoughts to make an oblique reference to, you know, the "little death" not actual death? Is that pretentious of me?? whatever. my thirst tag on tumblr is just going to stay "intense sexual rage," which is, I suppose, adjacent to this whole phenomena.
Anyway, I've generally assumed that for most people, this kind of "murder me" comment is just a humorously nihilist expression of lust.
posted by yasaman at 12:17 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
Anyway, I've generally assumed that for most people, this kind of "murder me" comment is just a humorously nihilist expression of lust.
posted by yasaman at 12:17 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
anyway I was hoping this thread would quickly fill up with mefites' stories of narrowly escaping death at the hands of murderously famous celebrity assassins
One time Bill Murray jumped into my car, and while he was trying to kill me he whispered, "No one will ever believe you," so I guess I got that going for me.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:18 PM on June 21, 2019 [12 favorites]
One time Bill Murray jumped into my car, and while he was trying to kill me he whispered, "No one will ever believe you," so I guess I got that going for me.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:18 PM on June 21, 2019 [12 favorites]
Looks like O.J. Picked the perfect time to join Twitter.
posted by ejs at 12:21 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ejs at 12:21 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of Cute Aggression, in which otherwise reasonable people will say things like “You’re so cute I just want to squish your face until it pops!” or “I love your face so much I want to rip it off and nail it to my wall!”
Clearly I do not wish to cause harm to my adorable puppy. But a part of me certainly wants to smoosh her squooshy little face until it explodes into little floofy hearts all over the room!!
posted by Gray Duck at 12:21 PM on June 21, 2019 [18 favorites]
Clearly I do not wish to cause harm to my adorable puppy. But a part of me certainly wants to smoosh her squooshy little face until it explodes into little floofy hearts all over the room!!
posted by Gray Duck at 12:21 PM on June 21, 2019 [18 favorites]
I hadn't encountered this behavior in the wild but it seems to me the joke's core is that the teller is so obsessed with the celeb that they'd accept their scorn, if it meant interacting with them. Kinda the same sentiment of children who antagonize their crushes. Then give it a submissive twist to express reverence, dial it up to 11 for slapstick comedy, and run the joke directly into the ground because it's the internet. Voilà.
I mean it's not exactly razor sharp wit or anything but I don't find it particularly troubling. Kinda interesting as a thing, though.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 12:23 PM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
I mean it's not exactly razor sharp wit or anything but I don't find it particularly troubling. Kinda interesting as a thing, though.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 12:23 PM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
wait you're saying my dad actually didn't want me to cut off his legs and call him shorty?
oops
posted by entropicamericana at 12:29 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
oops
posted by entropicamericana at 12:29 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think part of it is that we're a lot more intimate with celebrities than in the past, and that intimacy is this weird intersection of the fake and the real. Consider famous people's twitters or Instagrams. Some people's are very artificial, some people's are very sincere, but the artificiality is designed to read as real and the sincerity always has to be partially a brand. There's a reality/pretense of access to famous people's interiority that is just way more intense than magazine and TV-mediated celebrity of the nineties or early 2000s and that merges the "private self" and the public persona in new ways.
And then "celebrity" has democratized, sort of - lots of internet-famous people or niche-famous people, it's possible to become internet- or niche-famous if that's really your thing, and also everybody is a brand now. We're all interacting with "celebrities" all the time.
So there's this one-sided intimacy that is very intense and constantly fed by new material, and people aren't stupid, they understand that it's both fake and one-way, and I think that people also understand that it's difficult not to have feelings of fake intimacy when all of society is working very hard to create them. Hence the ironizing distance.
At the same time, consider that at least some people seem to have actually kind of believed all that Diamond Joe Biden nonsense, and remember that tumblr of Hillary Clinton smartphone/texting memes from like 2012? I do think that this kind of propaganda of intimacy works maybe better than we want it to, even when there's a lot of ironizing going on.
posted by Frowner at 12:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
And then "celebrity" has democratized, sort of - lots of internet-famous people or niche-famous people, it's possible to become internet- or niche-famous if that's really your thing, and also everybody is a brand now. We're all interacting with "celebrities" all the time.
So there's this one-sided intimacy that is very intense and constantly fed by new material, and people aren't stupid, they understand that it's both fake and one-way, and I think that people also understand that it's difficult not to have feelings of fake intimacy when all of society is working very hard to create them. Hence the ironizing distance.
At the same time, consider that at least some people seem to have actually kind of believed all that Diamond Joe Biden nonsense, and remember that tumblr of Hillary Clinton smartphone/texting memes from like 2012? I do think that this kind of propaganda of intimacy works maybe better than we want it to, even when there's a lot of ironizing going on.
posted by Frowner at 12:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
I feel like it's also a generational divide. Like, when I was a young whipper-snapper, it was not trendy to be into famous people - being into famous people was the normie thing.
I'm kind of surprised it's a thing now, given it feels like we are much more aware now that so many celebrities are terrible human beings and that we're generally less willing to pretend they're not.
Hero worship has always struck me as a bad idea.
posted by Foosnark at 12:38 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of surprised it's a thing now, given it feels like we are much more aware now that so many celebrities are terrible human beings and that we're generally less willing to pretend they're not.
Hero worship has always struck me as a bad idea.
posted by Foosnark at 12:38 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
...although maybe that's part of the irony, come to think of it. Some of these people probably would murder somebody (hi there OJ).
posted by Foosnark at 12:40 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 12:40 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'd like Sandra Bullock to kill me with her kindness. (Am I doing this right?)
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:55 PM on June 21, 2019
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:55 PM on June 21, 2019
But I don't think this is hero worship. Hero worship doesn't have a lot of complexity or ironic distance, and it's about heroes. I don't think it's that, eg, Timothee Chalamet is someone's hero, a larger than life figure who serves as a model (for something besides haircuts).
I think celebrities are more like a hobby. If you're the type of person who would otherwise have lots of opinions about sneakers or hair dye or records, you might also have lots of opinions about famous people, given that there's if anything the same intensity of marketing and the same creation of a body of knowledge.
Marketing, personality as commodity and making-friends-by-being-a-brand (which is basically what one does on twitter) are so utterly, utterly pervasive in a way that just wasn't possible without the internet and in particular without social media. To me it's unappealing, because I grew up in the Before-Time. It's difficult to talk about this without unintentionally moralizing, because the shift is so profound. Probably the most important difference in generational experience is how old you were when being Very Online became a thing. It's not whether you were an early adopter - people who were on bulletin boards in the nineties still had a very different experience of privacy and interiority than we do now, and the real issue is what's pervasive and normal, not what is merely possible.
It's like if you grew up in a culture which thinks that cheese is disgusting congealed milk which smells like vomit and then you move to a culture where cheese is delicious and a subject of much popular enthusiasm. Who is right? Who is just? Whose ideas are freakish, bizarre and wrong? It's unlikely that either culture has a lock on ethical production and distribution of resources, and frankly a lot of aged cheeses really do smell kind of like vomit, but then there's pizza.
I'm trying to think of a base/superstructure joke and can't seem to formulate one, but the base has changed and that brings the superstructure along with it. People were Kurt Cobain enthusiasts for entirely different reasons than people are now David Tennant enthusiasts.
posted by Frowner at 12:58 PM on June 21, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think celebrities are more like a hobby. If you're the type of person who would otherwise have lots of opinions about sneakers or hair dye or records, you might also have lots of opinions about famous people, given that there's if anything the same intensity of marketing and the same creation of a body of knowledge.
Marketing, personality as commodity and making-friends-by-being-a-brand (which is basically what one does on twitter) are so utterly, utterly pervasive in a way that just wasn't possible without the internet and in particular without social media. To me it's unappealing, because I grew up in the Before-Time. It's difficult to talk about this without unintentionally moralizing, because the shift is so profound. Probably the most important difference in generational experience is how old you were when being Very Online became a thing. It's not whether you were an early adopter - people who were on bulletin boards in the nineties still had a very different experience of privacy and interiority than we do now, and the real issue is what's pervasive and normal, not what is merely possible.
It's like if you grew up in a culture which thinks that cheese is disgusting congealed milk which smells like vomit and then you move to a culture where cheese is delicious and a subject of much popular enthusiasm. Who is right? Who is just? Whose ideas are freakish, bizarre and wrong? It's unlikely that either culture has a lock on ethical production and distribution of resources, and frankly a lot of aged cheeses really do smell kind of like vomit, but then there's pizza.
I'm trying to think of a base/superstructure joke and can't seem to formulate one, but the base has changed and that brings the superstructure along with it. People were Kurt Cobain enthusiasts for entirely different reasons than people are now David Tennant enthusiasts.
posted by Frowner at 12:58 PM on June 21, 2019 [8 favorites]
I, uh, yeah, it's irony and silliness and performance. You could probably draw some kind of line from, say, The Toast's series of If Stanley Tucci Was Your Boyfriend articles to this, it's not more sincere.
This probably the last round of Extremely Online behavior I'll really understand before I shuffle off to become a fully fledged old and start posting worried threads about Tide Pods or whatever, so I'm doing my best to get the most out of it.
posted by ominous_paws at 1:15 PM on June 21, 2019 [6 favorites]
This probably the last round of Extremely Online behavior I'll really understand before I shuffle off to become a fully fledged old and start posting worried threads about Tide Pods or whatever, so I'm doing my best to get the most out of it.
posted by ominous_paws at 1:15 PM on June 21, 2019 [6 favorites]
It feels unchancey to joke about being run over, for instance, because I've had some scary run-ins with homophobic people while I'm on my bike, and I feel like I actually could get run over with a truck because someone thought it would be fun.
I will preface this by saying that I'm not queer, and so if my perspective on this is unwanted I am happy to disengage from this particular thread of the conversation. I cannot know what it feels like to know there are people who would threaten your life because of who you are, and I absolutely don't want to make light of that accidentally or on purpose. And also, of course, me not being queer and very young means I may be/probably am missing some dimension of this particular phenomenon that contradicts my theory.
I wonder if part of the reason "step on my throat" or "run me over with a truck" works as an affirmation of celebrity worship is in part because you are CHOOSING the person that gets to hold your life in their hands. Like, bigots and assholes everywhere want to kill them and that's something they always have in the back of their head. But CATE BLANCHETT or HARRY STYLES or whoever, being a person who a) almost certainly doesn't want to kill them and b) is supernaturally attractive to the speaker, holds such a power over them and inspires such fierce devotion that they would happily grant that person the privilege of bludgeoning them with a truck because of the sheer pleasure of being associated with that celebrity.
-----
As an aside, it's weird that in the particular social media circles I run in, I've never really seen the murderous versions of this affirmation, but "step on me" without the death bit explicitly said (or even intended) is actually pretty common. As far as I can tell, they both come from the same impulse; it's just one is more dramatic than the other. But "step on me" reads to me as "dominate me completely" in a specifically BDSM-y way, whereas I guess the gorier variants have more than a whiff of There Is a Light That Never Goes Out to them as well.
posted by chrominance at 1:23 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
I will preface this by saying that I'm not queer, and so if my perspective on this is unwanted I am happy to disengage from this particular thread of the conversation. I cannot know what it feels like to know there are people who would threaten your life because of who you are, and I absolutely don't want to make light of that accidentally or on purpose. And also, of course, me not being queer and very young means I may be/probably am missing some dimension of this particular phenomenon that contradicts my theory.
I wonder if part of the reason "step on my throat" or "run me over with a truck" works as an affirmation of celebrity worship is in part because you are CHOOSING the person that gets to hold your life in their hands. Like, bigots and assholes everywhere want to kill them and that's something they always have in the back of their head. But CATE BLANCHETT or HARRY STYLES or whoever, being a person who a) almost certainly doesn't want to kill them and b) is supernaturally attractive to the speaker, holds such a power over them and inspires such fierce devotion that they would happily grant that person the privilege of bludgeoning them with a truck because of the sheer pleasure of being associated with that celebrity.
-----
As an aside, it's weird that in the particular social media circles I run in, I've never really seen the murderous versions of this affirmation, but "step on me" without the death bit explicitly said (or even intended) is actually pretty common. As far as I can tell, they both come from the same impulse; it's just one is more dramatic than the other. But "step on me" reads to me as "dominate me completely" in a specifically BDSM-y way, whereas I guess the gorier variants have more than a whiff of There Is a Light That Never Goes Out to them as well.
posted by chrominance at 1:23 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
im wary of jumping to the "oh its just a young people" thing, but I really do think this is just a thing the youths do. For whatever reason young people on the internet have decided that making wild hyperboles, even then they're irrelevant, is the best way to flatter someone. I spent a long time on youtube last night (something I never do) watching music videos (Earfquake is a masterpiece) and pretty much all of the comments were nonsensical, non-sequitur hyperboles. Let me share with you some of my favorites:
-listening to this song changed the taste of my gum
-i played this for a criminal and he's arresting cops now
-i think this music is listening to me
-im darth vader's father now
-this song makes me want to call 911 and ask whats your emergency
posted by FirstMateKate at 1:40 PM on June 21, 2019 [30 favorites]
-listening to this song changed the taste of my gum
-i played this for a criminal and he's arresting cops now
-i think this music is listening to me
-im darth vader's father now
-this song makes me want to call 911 and ask whats your emergency
posted by FirstMateKate at 1:40 PM on June 21, 2019 [30 favorites]
One element to this trope that seems rather foundational to me is completely overlooked by this article in its various attempts to explain why people say these kinds of things: it's funny! Not that that's ever ALL that's going on, but it's definitely part of this in my view.
Exactly. It's an exaggerated way of proclaiming the depth of your devotion - you aren't some fly-by-night fair-weather fan, you are committed, no matter what the object of your devotion does! You're not like those fair-weather fans who are gonna bail when the next album doesn't chart as long, you're committed!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:55 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
Exactly. It's an exaggerated way of proclaiming the depth of your devotion - you aren't some fly-by-night fair-weather fan, you are committed, no matter what the object of your devotion does! You're not like those fair-weather fans who are gonna bail when the next album doesn't chart as long, you're committed!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:55 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think it's weird that Tolentino blows past the very simple explanation the young people saying this stuff give for why they say it (also basically the one found in seven hundred years of classical literature): they have very strong emotions about the celebrities they like. "It’s Cate freaking Blanchett, you’d do anything she wants you to do" and "Even just being near him or in his presence would make me sooo happy, even if it meant he was running me over with a truck."
People have been saying "I'm dying" or "I feel like I'm dying" or "You're killing me" about crush objects for forever. It's not that far a leap from "I am overwhelmed with emotions when I think about this person and it makes me feel almost physically ill" to "I wish the person I have these emotions about would kill me." This piece has a real NYT Styles vibe to it.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:11 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
People have been saying "I'm dying" or "I feel like I'm dying" or "You're killing me" about crush objects for forever. It's not that far a leap from "I am overwhelmed with emotions when I think about this person and it makes me feel almost physically ill" to "I wish the person I have these emotions about would kill me." This piece has a real NYT Styles vibe to it.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:11 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
STAB ME WITH A BROKEN SPATULA NYT STYLES
is that good? am I 'with it?'
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:21 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
is that good? am I 'with it?'
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:21 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
My tea's gone cold I'm wondering why I
Got out of bed at all
The morning rain clouds up my window
And I can't see at all
And even if I could it'll all be gray
Put your picture on my wall
It reminds me, that it's not so bad
It's not so bad
posted by betweenthebars at 2:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Got out of bed at all
The morning rain clouds up my window
And I can't see at all
And even if I could it'll all be gray
Put your picture on my wall
It reminds me, that it's not so bad
It's not so bad
posted by betweenthebars at 2:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
“I was suddenly afraid of death—I was nihilistic—and I had to find something else that could fill that gap.”
They're so close...
posted by Reyturner at 3:03 PM on June 21, 2019
They're so close...
posted by Reyturner at 3:03 PM on June 21, 2019
This reminds me of Cute Aggression, in which otherwise reasonable people will say things like “You’re so cute I just want to squish your face until it pops!” or “I love your face so much I want to rip it off and nail it to my wall!”
If your visual field is entirely red, it cannot produce a red sensation as intense as is produced by what is (on a physical level) the same red displayed next to a contrasting green. Sometimes I wonder whether there is a limit to the cuteness that can be assigned to any being, and to allow ourselves to mentally represent greater cuteness, we must juxtapose it with some adjacent anger. In any case, I can tell you that my dog has such temerity! Or is it mere foolishness? to exist so perfectly adorable in a mostly terrible world. What is she thinking?!
"It’s Cate freaking Blanchett, you’d do anything she wants you to do"
Jennifer Lawrence once described being in Cate Blanchett's presence as if Blanchett were a literal queen- she felt an involuntary submission (did anyone check to make sure Blanchett didn't end up with the Ring after LotR wrapped?).
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 3:06 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
If your visual field is entirely red, it cannot produce a red sensation as intense as is produced by what is (on a physical level) the same red displayed next to a contrasting green. Sometimes I wonder whether there is a limit to the cuteness that can be assigned to any being, and to allow ourselves to mentally represent greater cuteness, we must juxtapose it with some adjacent anger. In any case, I can tell you that my dog has such temerity! Or is it mere foolishness? to exist so perfectly adorable in a mostly terrible world. What is she thinking?!
"It’s Cate freaking Blanchett, you’d do anything she wants you to do"
Jennifer Lawrence once described being in Cate Blanchett's presence as if Blanchett were a literal queen- she felt an involuntary submission (did anyone check to make sure Blanchett didn't end up with the Ring after LotR wrapped?).
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 3:06 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Scroll through article, see Freud reference, back right the fuck away.
posted by sfred at 3:17 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by sfred at 3:17 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
Terra Ignota edition that I haven't been able to get out of my head and now you have to read it too. Spoilers, I guess?
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:33 PM on June 21, 2019
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:33 PM on June 21, 2019
Mark Mothersbaugh once grabbed me by the collar of my coveralls and pulled me towards him. He was checking to see if they were the same kind they wore on stage for the Hardcore DEVO Tour in 2014.
...
...
Good lord, man, drop the other boot already!
posted by Thorzdad at 4:07 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
...
...
Good lord, man, drop the other boot already!
posted by Thorzdad at 4:07 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
See, I'm only this fond of celebrities who seem to have a core of wholesomeness that would prevent them killing anyone -- except perhaps for my crush on Ron Perlman, who even now could probably take out a row of Proud Boys with one swing of his arm.
*leans back in my chair* OK, that last bit--why don't we, uh, just go back to that for a little while.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:26 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
*leans back in my chair* OK, that last bit--why don't we, uh, just go back to that for a little while.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:26 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
I control-F'd for irony and got zero hits. I just don't think the article writer got it.
Did you try “ironic”? Because I don’t think the writer actually overlooked that aspect. “Love may be timeless, but the half-ironic millennial death wish has become an underground river rushing swiftly under the surface of the age.“
posted by churl at 4:26 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Did you try “ironic”? Because I don’t think the writer actually overlooked that aspect. “Love may be timeless, but the half-ironic millennial death wish has become an underground river rushing swiftly under the surface of the age.“
posted by churl at 4:26 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
“If a double decker bus crashes into us... to die by your side, the pleasure and privilege is mine.” — some famous guy named smith I think.
posted by ardgedee at 4:41 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ardgedee at 4:41 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh, gosh. I wouldn't let Morrissey kill me, I don't think. No. No, I wouldn't.
I'd be okay with Simon Gallup garroting me with an E string, though. You know, if I was ready to die.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:46 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'd be okay with Simon Gallup garroting me with an E string, though. You know, if I was ready to die.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:46 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
i really love our generation’s joke trend of like, very calm but incredibly inflated hyperbole. like nobody says “oh she’s pretty” anymore we say “i would willingly let her murder me” and everyone is just like “lol same”maralie
i think “same” is also great and “me,” i love when somebody reblogs a picture of like, a lizard, and just says “me” and we all know exactly what they mean. the current online Humor Discourse is remarkable because we trade exclusively in metaphors and implications and nobody ever, ever says anything outright and yet EVERYBODY understands each other perfectly
posted by divabat at 5:10 PM on June 21, 2019 [8 favorites]
I'm kind of surprised it's a thing now, given it feels like we are much more aware now that so many celebrities are terrible human beings and that we're generally less willing to pretend they're not.
Yeah, but we also live in an age where many people seem to assume that celebrity status is the only thing worth having in life (perhaps because they want to be able to get away with being terrible human beings themselves).
posted by Paul Slade at 7:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yeah, but we also live in an age where many people seem to assume that celebrity status is the only thing worth having in life (perhaps because they want to be able to get away with being terrible human beings themselves).
posted by Paul Slade at 7:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
I feel like it's also a generational divide. Like, when I was a young whipper-snapper, it was not trendy to be into famous people - being into famous people was the normie thing.
Yes. This exactly. Even when I was a teen circa the turn of the millennium, you might have thought a band was awesome or a comedian was fucking hilarious out loud, but you would not have personally admired the comedian as a person. At least not where I grew up. That changed in my personal cohorts mid-twenties, but not as teens.
The second version of this for me is emoji and the fact that teens use them. I feel like in the Year 2000 of the Common Era, no teen would have been caught dead using an emoji if such things as phones and emoji had existed at the time, and my wife agrees. (I don't recall AIM having an equivalent, or if it did, I regarded them exactly that way, so effectively that I don't remember their existence.)
posted by Caduceus at 7:59 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
Yes. This exactly. Even when I was a teen circa the turn of the millennium, you might have thought a band was awesome or a comedian was fucking hilarious out loud, but you would not have personally admired the comedian as a person. At least not where I grew up. That changed in my personal cohorts mid-twenties, but not as teens.
The second version of this for me is emoji and the fact that teens use them. I feel like in the Year 2000 of the Common Era, no teen would have been caught dead using an emoji if such things as phones and emoji had existed at the time, and my wife agrees. (I don't recall AIM having an equivalent, or if it did, I regarded them exactly that way, so effectively that I don't remember their existence.)
posted by Caduceus at 7:59 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
Reading this after the E Jean article is a trip.
When you re a star, they let you do it.
I'm only reassured by the fact that younger people are also joking about the necessity of guillotines in a way that we never could
posted by eustatic at 8:55 PM on June 21, 2019
When you re a star, they let you do it.
I'm only reassured by the fact that younger people are also joking about the necessity of guillotines in a way that we never could
posted by eustatic at 8:55 PM on June 21, 2019
I'm kind of surprised it's a thing now, given it feels like we are much more aware now that so many celebrities are terrible human beings and that we're generally less willing to pretend they're not.
I'm pretty sure this just heightens the whole thing, really - the more personally people feel the known terribleness of Famous Person A, the more personally they also feel the presumed goodness of Famous Person B.
posted by atoxyl at 10:22 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure this just heightens the whole thing, really - the more personally people feel the known terribleness of Famous Person A, the more personally they also feel the presumed goodness of Famous Person B.
posted by atoxyl at 10:22 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
the instinct to walk into the ocean or the fear of going onto a roof because you might involuntarily jump... that is totally normal, doesnt imply actual suicidal ideation, and tons of people have it. why do we need to get dumb celebrities involved in these otherwise totally wholesome deathwish fantasies?
mine is flying a biplane into an active volcano, and taylor swift is not involved. although, i guess, she could take the back seat if she really wanted to.
posted by wibari at 10:40 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
mine is flying a biplane into an active volcano, and taylor swift is not involved. although, i guess, she could take the back seat if she really wanted to.
posted by wibari at 10:40 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
why do we need to get dumb celebrities involved in these otherwise totally wholesome deathwish fantasies?
Turns out we needed to have two people hit the buttons to set off the nuke that would destroy the asteroid before it hit Earth. Don't ask me why; it's technical. There was no question in our minds as to who would do it; no hesitation as we tricked the other crew into the shuttle, set the autopilot, and jumped out the airlock seconds before takeoff. Thus, only the deed remained.
We picked up the triggers. I swallowed, hard. "I... I just hope that, when they put up the statues, they'll have us holding hands."
Henry Rollins nodded slowly and put one gloved hand on the side of my helmet. "I stop the world and melt with you."
We hit it. Fate brought us together; destiny would never tear us apart.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:14 PM on June 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
Turns out we needed to have two people hit the buttons to set off the nuke that would destroy the asteroid before it hit Earth. Don't ask me why; it's technical. There was no question in our minds as to who would do it; no hesitation as we tricked the other crew into the shuttle, set the autopilot, and jumped out the airlock seconds before takeoff. Thus, only the deed remained.
We picked up the triggers. I swallowed, hard. "I... I just hope that, when they put up the statues, they'll have us holding hands."
Henry Rollins nodded slowly and put one gloved hand on the side of my helmet. "I stop the world and melt with you."
We hit it. Fate brought us together; destiny would never tear us apart.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:14 PM on June 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
I mean...cmon. Hyperbole may be the best thing there is. I'm an old and I find it hilarious.
Maybe that's because Basic Instinct looks less like some sort of "horror" movie and more like the best retirement plan ever. "A goddess-like 30-something Sharon Stone smashes with me and then, at the 'petit mort', I also get the big death, instantaneous, staring at her beautiful, sweaty face? No more bills, worrying about what oddball body part is going to sprout hair next, or why my knees, never abused, seem out to get me now? I don't even need to think about this, I'm in."
posted by maxwelton at 11:33 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Maybe that's because Basic Instinct looks less like some sort of "horror" movie and more like the best retirement plan ever. "A goddess-like 30-something Sharon Stone smashes with me and then, at the 'petit mort', I also get the big death, instantaneous, staring at her beautiful, sweaty face? No more bills, worrying about what oddball body part is going to sprout hair next, or why my knees, never abused, seem out to get me now? I don't even need to think about this, I'm in."
posted by maxwelton at 11:33 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
anyway I was hoping this thread would quickly fill up with mefites' stories of narrowly escaping death at the hands of murderously famous celebrity assassins
Al Franken stepped on my husband's umbrella once. It was as thrilling as it sounds.
(I also once almost headbutted Jerry Seinfeld running out of an elevator in his apartment building - but that was probably more likely to result in his demise than mine, so I'm not sure if it counts.)
posted by ilana at 11:56 PM on June 21, 2019
Al Franken stepped on my husband's umbrella once. It was as thrilling as it sounds.
(I also once almost headbutted Jerry Seinfeld running out of an elevator in his apartment building - but that was probably more likely to result in his demise than mine, so I'm not sure if it counts.)
posted by ilana at 11:56 PM on June 21, 2019
Henry Rollins nodded slowly and put one gloved hand on the side of my helmet.
okay i was totally wrong.
posted by wibari at 12:08 AM on June 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
okay i was totally wrong.
posted by wibari at 12:08 AM on June 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
The basic emotion/idea being expressed is nothing remotely new, the phrase "to die for" should show that as would any number of quotes around seeing someone so desirable that it causes a pain like unto death. "He's so dreamy I could just die." "Gosh Doc, I don't know what's wrong with me, I can't eat I can't sleep I feel like I'm going to die." "Sounds like you've got a bad case of love sick" Hell, Prince had a hit with I Would Die 4 U not that far back.
The hyperbole is an extension of this, yeah, in something of an ironic way for it being a conduit for garnering "likes" and retweets to extend one's own minor notice, but the love of celebrity isn't quite so much ironic, with the statements in their hyperbole not being all that different than those celebrating "God Emperor Trump". They're purposefully grandiose, but the want for celebrity behind them is real enough. They hold a famous figure as representational of something greater and attach a set of desires to that representation while minimizing the personhood of that figure in claims of something more that isn't found among mere mortals.
The claim itself, for its extravagance duplicates the favoring of persona over person, the love of essentialized essence over the real complexity of another human being with all the inherent difficulties of individual wants, needs, and actions. The mention of queer culture gives some reason for this, in at least a historical perspective, where there was virtually no "street level" representation to project a sense of belonging towards, so camp identification with persona had a sense to it for being an accessible entry to socially accepted desire. Celebrities had a commonality that could translate across otherwise secret boundaries and be held to represent what could not be publicly stated otherwise.
Whether that is something that is still necessary in the same way I can't judge, but the fetish for celebrity more generally, even if presented in hyperbolic terms has a real social cost as far as I'm concerned. Even if one just claims the interest is pretense for one's own social amusement, there is the noted point that what one pretends becomes hard to differentiate from the actual.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:36 AM on June 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
The hyperbole is an extension of this, yeah, in something of an ironic way for it being a conduit for garnering "likes" and retweets to extend one's own minor notice, but the love of celebrity isn't quite so much ironic, with the statements in their hyperbole not being all that different than those celebrating "God Emperor Trump". They're purposefully grandiose, but the want for celebrity behind them is real enough. They hold a famous figure as representational of something greater and attach a set of desires to that representation while minimizing the personhood of that figure in claims of something more that isn't found among mere mortals.
The claim itself, for its extravagance duplicates the favoring of persona over person, the love of essentialized essence over the real complexity of another human being with all the inherent difficulties of individual wants, needs, and actions. The mention of queer culture gives some reason for this, in at least a historical perspective, where there was virtually no "street level" representation to project a sense of belonging towards, so camp identification with persona had a sense to it for being an accessible entry to socially accepted desire. Celebrities had a commonality that could translate across otherwise secret boundaries and be held to represent what could not be publicly stated otherwise.
Whether that is something that is still necessary in the same way I can't judge, but the fetish for celebrity more generally, even if presented in hyperbolic terms has a real social cost as far as I'm concerned. Even if one just claims the interest is pretense for one's own social amusement, there is the noted point that what one pretends becomes hard to differentiate from the actual.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:36 AM on June 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
I dunno, I'm not into "oh it's just the youths it has no meaning youths are eternal", because I remember being a youth and our pop culture was a symptom of the times. It wasn't just some eternal version of what people had been saying in 1910 or whatever.
(I quite enjoyed a lot of the nineties, but really most of the pop culture was godawful. Do you remember the endless macho bullshit? The comedians? The utter man-pain nonsense of, eg, Trainspotting and its ilk?)
There's an obvious difference between "people sometimes say, 'ah, you're killing me' to imply that something is indeed very enjoyable" and "people pervasively describe wealthy and famous others as being so good that being gruesomely injured by them would not only be enjoyable but would be the best that they themselves could expect out of life". You don't need to allege that this is a literal death wish to say that it is a change in rhetoric and a fairly interesting one. Are we really asserting that nothing about the way a culture uses words has any particular meaning, it's just that humans word and the wording is involuntary and random?
posted by Frowner at 4:55 AM on June 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
(I quite enjoyed a lot of the nineties, but really most of the pop culture was godawful. Do you remember the endless macho bullshit? The comedians? The utter man-pain nonsense of, eg, Trainspotting and its ilk?)
There's an obvious difference between "people sometimes say, 'ah, you're killing me' to imply that something is indeed very enjoyable" and "people pervasively describe wealthy and famous others as being so good that being gruesomely injured by them would not only be enjoyable but would be the best that they themselves could expect out of life". You don't need to allege that this is a literal death wish to say that it is a change in rhetoric and a fairly interesting one. Are we really asserting that nothing about the way a culture uses words has any particular meaning, it's just that humans word and the wording is involuntary and random?
posted by Frowner at 4:55 AM on June 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
I feel like in the Year 2000 of the Common Era, no teen would have been caught dead using an emoji if such things as phones and emoji had existed at the time, and my wife agrees.
Back in the early days of the Internet we had sideways facial expressions made out of punctuation marks and WE LIKED IT. :-)
posted by Daily Alice at 5:03 AM on June 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
Back in the early days of the Internet we had sideways facial expressions made out of punctuation marks and WE LIKED IT. :-)
posted by Daily Alice at 5:03 AM on June 22, 2019 [3 favorites]
Non-famous people actually killed by celebrities (e.g., Lana Clarkson, Ron Goldman, etc.) achieve a certain celebrity themselves.
posted by carmicha at 5:18 AM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 5:18 AM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
I feel like in the Year 2000 of the Common Era, no teen would have been caught dead using an emoji if such things as phones and emoji had existed at the time, and my wife agrees.
Back in the early days of the Internet we had sideways facial expressions made out of punctuation marks and WE LIKED IT. :-)
I learned which combinations of punctuation would be replaced by an image in the software I was using, and adapted them to prevent that. I can't be the only one.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 6:03 AM on June 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
Back in the early days of the Internet we had sideways facial expressions made out of punctuation marks and WE LIKED IT. :-)
I learned which combinations of punctuation would be replaced by an image in the software I was using, and adapted them to prevent that. I can't be the only one.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 6:03 AM on June 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
I’ve never bren particularly hung up on celebrities. And maybe i’ve just spent enough time around actors and musicians to recognize that famous actors and musicians are pretty much still actors and musicians. I did, however, get a a few goosebumps the time i saw Patti Smith in the wild. I’ve never really thought about being killed by a celebrity, though i’m aggressively indifferent enough to sports that i’d probably get killed by a rogue ball (hit, thrown, kicked, whathaveyou) by a famous athlete i wouldn’t recognize doing some thing i wouldn’t completely understand and I’d spend eternity as an answer at sports trivia.
posted by thivaia at 6:42 AM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 6:42 AM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
The idea that millennials and gen z are more hung up on celebrities is... really absolutely preposterous. Examples A through ∞: Madonna, The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Prince, David Bowie, etc. etc. etc. I would even wager that gen Y/Z are less idol-worshippy. The first and foremost way we interact with celebrities is via critique and analysis. So much so that we've got an entirely new societal problem of "callout culture" and people getting "cancelled".
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:38 AM on June 22, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:38 AM on June 22, 2019 [9 favorites]
This has been a really strange phenomenon to watch unfold! I survived a murder attempt by strangulation, which friends know about me, but just try being the killjoy who has trouble with suddenly hearing from all corners about how bad everyone wants a hot celeb to strangle them. Mostly I have been met with explanations of irony, as if to someone who had never encountered any ironic expressive mode before; or else, on the other hand, explanations (totally devoid of irony) that when someone says she wants a beautiful actress to strangle her to death, it's an articulation of a consensual erotic wish. I don't look much at social media anymore, and this is part of why.
posted by the fringe of the flame at 11:57 AM on June 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by the fringe of the flame at 11:57 AM on June 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
Ugh just smash my fucking skull in with a plate of beans
posted by ominous_paws at 12:22 PM on June 22, 2019
posted by ominous_paws at 12:22 PM on June 22, 2019
that when someone says she wants a beautiful actress to strangle her to death, it's an articulation of a consensual erotic wish.
This is a whole entire other fucking problem we've got going on (people thinking violence is cool and normal, people thinking everyone is okay with kink, people thinking violent kinks are okay and free from criticism, people thinking its acceptable to talk about fetishes in public/with strangers, people assuming specifically that choking fetishes are mainstream, and then going so far as to pressure women to conform/call them vanilla and boring when they don't, adolescents being exposed to this kind of behavior too young, the list goes on). As you can see I have a lot of similar feelings you do (but I get labeled a prude, a bitch, a cunt, and even a terf when I bring up my criticisms of sex culture). Apparently there are people out there who conflate these two things, fetishes and hyperboles, but I don't think the existence of this specific hyperbole came from fetishes. As we've established they've been around longer than people are letting on. They're just getting popular now.
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:26 PM on June 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
This is a whole entire other fucking problem we've got going on (people thinking violence is cool and normal, people thinking everyone is okay with kink, people thinking violent kinks are okay and free from criticism, people thinking its acceptable to talk about fetishes in public/with strangers, people assuming specifically that choking fetishes are mainstream, and then going so far as to pressure women to conform/call them vanilla and boring when they don't, adolescents being exposed to this kind of behavior too young, the list goes on). As you can see I have a lot of similar feelings you do (but I get labeled a prude, a bitch, a cunt, and even a terf when I bring up my criticisms of sex culture). Apparently there are people out there who conflate these two things, fetishes and hyperboles, but I don't think the existence of this specific hyperbole came from fetishes. As we've established they've been around longer than people are letting on. They're just getting popular now.
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:26 PM on June 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
So much so that we've got an entirely new societal problem of "callout culture" and people getting "cancelled".
I mean phenomenon sure, problem, ehhhhhhh
posted by ominous_paws at 12:31 PM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
I mean phenomenon sure, problem, ehhhhhhh
posted by ominous_paws at 12:31 PM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
I also don't think these kinds of expressions come so much from fetishes as they do more sort of a natural enough culmination of a few different long standing strains of expression coming together. It's long been common to hear expressions suggesting love as pain, love as sacrifice, and celebrity as royalty, this trend just puts those things together in an exaggerated spin that increases by the kind of semi-competition social media creates among posters for attention.
The idea generally seems to be that the poster is trying to express the highest level of possible devotion to a celeb while simultaneously abasing themselves as not worthy of interaction as an equal matched a desire/regard/love that is so great death is nothing beside it if they could even for a moment interact with the celeb. Much of that isn't new at all, it's just the particular flavor of the mix fit to our era that makes it seem so.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:50 PM on June 22, 2019
The idea generally seems to be that the poster is trying to express the highest level of possible devotion to a celeb while simultaneously abasing themselves as not worthy of interaction as an equal matched a desire/regard/love that is so great death is nothing beside it if they could even for a moment interact with the celeb. Much of that isn't new at all, it's just the particular flavor of the mix fit to our era that makes it seem so.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:50 PM on June 22, 2019
So much so that we've got an entirely new societal problem of "callout culture" and people getting "cancelled".
I mean phenomenon sure, problem, ehhhhhhh
posted by ominous_paws at 3:31 PM on June 22 [+] [!]
Not trying to derail but its definitely a problem in small communities, and, as with all culture in a white supremacist society, it is being used to uphold white supremacy. Black people, esp black women, are far more likely to be cancelled than white men, and over less egregious offences. That, to me, is a problem
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:55 PM on June 22, 2019
I mean phenomenon sure, problem, ehhhhhhh
posted by ominous_paws at 3:31 PM on June 22 [+] [!]
Not trying to derail but its definitely a problem in small communities, and, as with all culture in a white supremacist society, it is being used to uphold white supremacy. Black people, esp black women, are far more likely to be cancelled than white men, and over less egregious offences. That, to me, is a problem
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:55 PM on June 22, 2019
the instinct to walk into the ocean or the fear of going onto a roof because you might involuntarily jump... that is totally normal, doesnt imply actual suicidal ideation, and tons of people have it. why do we need to get dumb celebrities involved in these otherwise totally wholesome deathwish fantasies?
mine is flying a biplane into an active volcano, and taylor swift is not involved. although, i guess, she could take the back seat if she really wanted to.
posted by wibari
Animal trainers supposedly have a trick for eliminating really incorrigible undesirable behaviors that involve training the animal to actually do the thing they want to eliminate when they give a specific cue — and then never giving the cue!
By attaching a death wish to an extremely improbable encounter with a celebrity, a person is giving their death wish a cue that can never happen.
In your case, the circumstance itself is so improbable that Taylor Swift is superfluous.
posted by jamjam at 1:35 PM on June 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
mine is flying a biplane into an active volcano, and taylor swift is not involved. although, i guess, she could take the back seat if she really wanted to.
posted by wibari
Animal trainers supposedly have a trick for eliminating really incorrigible undesirable behaviors that involve training the animal to actually do the thing they want to eliminate when they give a specific cue — and then never giving the cue!
By attaching a death wish to an extremely improbable encounter with a celebrity, a person is giving their death wish a cue that can never happen.
In your case, the circumstance itself is so improbable that Taylor Swift is superfluous.
posted by jamjam at 1:35 PM on June 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
"candied nihilism" Love that!
posted by blue shadows at 5:14 PM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by blue shadows at 5:14 PM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
The idea that millennials and gen z are more hung up on celebrities is... really absolutely preposterous.
I think Frowner was really mostly making a narrower observation that particular kinds and circles of young people who previously would have treated celebrity worship as uncool, if not slightly nefarious, have little compunction about it now. I think that's at least true from certain angles, and probably related to things like "poptimism" and of course the increased accessibility (or perceived accessibility) of famous people online. But I also think memes like the ones described in this article span multiple levels of irony and likely reflect a more ambivalent attitude.
posted by atoxyl at 6:30 PM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think Frowner was really mostly making a narrower observation that particular kinds and circles of young people who previously would have treated celebrity worship as uncool, if not slightly nefarious, have little compunction about it now. I think that's at least true from certain angles, and probably related to things like "poptimism" and of course the increased accessibility (or perceived accessibility) of famous people online. But I also think memes like the ones described in this article span multiple levels of irony and likely reflect a more ambivalent attitude.
posted by atoxyl at 6:30 PM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's long been common to hear expressions suggesting love as pain
Which, reading around, I found an argument I liked about the madrigal as a response to the danger and instability of cinquecento politics in Italy -- to re-use a paragraph,
posted by clew at 10:42 AM on June 27, 2019
Morte che nel morire(In the dying I am filled with all joy and desire)
m'empie di gioia tutto e di desire;
se nel morir altro dolor non sento,
di mille morti il di sarei contento.
Which, reading around, I found an argument I liked about the madrigal as a response to the danger and instability of cinquecento politics in Italy -- to re-use a paragraph,
The(The argument is in Laura Macy's "Speaking of Sex" in The Journal of Musicology; in Jstor, paywalled but allows a free subscription for 6 articles (a month? year? ever?). Compares three madrigals on approximately the same subject to see how the metaphor changes, gives a nice background on the WTF medical theory of the time, ditto Castiglione: " ... using various ways of concealment, those present revealed their thoughts in allegories...")madrigals[memes] that punctuate social gatheringslike those Doni describes and Castiglione prescribesare thus more thanmusical[humorous] diversions. They accomplish inmusic[imagery] the aims of the evening's discourse. Likemusical[Twitter] conversations, they involve their participants in witty repartee. Since the words are supplied, the repartee may be seen as scripted. In that sense themadrigal[meme] becomes a kind of practice for ''real'' conversation where the dialogue must be improvised.
posted by clew at 10:42 AM on June 27, 2019
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posted by GallonOfAlan at 10:58 AM on June 21, 2019 [27 favorites]