Raw food and the Great Reset
October 11, 2022 2:45 AM Subscribe
Content warning: neo-Nazis, antisemitism (but I repeat myself), Tucker Carlson, food craziness, conspiracy theories, toxic masculinity, etc. abound in The Emerging Raw Food Movement and the 'Great Reset', a longish read written by Joshua Molloy and Dr. Eviane Leidig for the Global Network on Extremism and Technology. Perhaps inevitably (remember the wellness-to-white-supremacy pipeline?), "food has become an increasingly visible topic across far-right digital subcultures as well as the broader right-wing online ecosystem."
On Telegram, neo-Nazis claim that the war in Ukraine is a Jewish conspiracy to manufacture a food crisis and usher in a New World Order (NWO). In comparison, right-wing users on Twitter supporting Dutch farmer protests frame proposed government regulations to reduce livestock and fertiliser use as a plan to orchestrate food shortages. Meanwhile, influential figures ranging from Alex Jones, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Tucker Carlson have promoted conspiracy theories that fires at food processing plants across the U.S were purposely set to disrupt the food supply chain.
These conspiratorial narratives have surged as threats of an impending global food crisis have emerged over the last year and align with the rising ‘Great Reset’ conspiracy theory. The ‘Great Reset’ was a term used in 2020 by the World Economic Forum to outline a vision for a post-Covid-19 economic recovery plan. The far-right has seized upon this term to push a conspiracy theory that ‘globalist’ elites wish to install a liberal authoritarian one-world government and refer to state responses like lockdowns and mask mandates as forms of biopolitical control.
Food is viewed as playing a major role in the Great Reset in terms of how we produce and eat food in response to projected global population growth and as a means of tackling climate change. Raw food proponents argue that globalists will oversee the removal of meat and dairy products from modern diets and replace food consumption with novel sources of protein such as plant-based and lab-grown meat. Insect-based foods occupy a particular fixation in this dystopian vision, in which an elite will live on a luxurious meat-based diet while ordinary people will be forced to live in small ‘pods’ and subsist on bugs.
On Telegram, neo-Nazis claim that the war in Ukraine is a Jewish conspiracy to manufacture a food crisis and usher in a New World Order (NWO). In comparison, right-wing users on Twitter supporting Dutch farmer protests frame proposed government regulations to reduce livestock and fertiliser use as a plan to orchestrate food shortages. Meanwhile, influential figures ranging from Alex Jones, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Tucker Carlson have promoted conspiracy theories that fires at food processing plants across the U.S were purposely set to disrupt the food supply chain.
These conspiratorial narratives have surged as threats of an impending global food crisis have emerged over the last year and align with the rising ‘Great Reset’ conspiracy theory. The ‘Great Reset’ was a term used in 2020 by the World Economic Forum to outline a vision for a post-Covid-19 economic recovery plan. The far-right has seized upon this term to push a conspiracy theory that ‘globalist’ elites wish to install a liberal authoritarian one-world government and refer to state responses like lockdowns and mask mandates as forms of biopolitical control.
Food is viewed as playing a major role in the Great Reset in terms of how we produce and eat food in response to projected global population growth and as a means of tackling climate change. Raw food proponents argue that globalists will oversee the removal of meat and dairy products from modern diets and replace food consumption with novel sources of protein such as plant-based and lab-grown meat. Insect-based foods occupy a particular fixation in this dystopian vision, in which an elite will live on a luxurious meat-based diet while ordinary people will be forced to live in small ‘pods’ and subsist on bugs.
Sounds like the plot of Loups Garrous.
posted by subdee at 3:37 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by subdee at 3:37 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I see a lot of this on Twitter - the "carnivore" movement seems to be much more angry and obsessed with vegans than enthused about their own diet, and in the comments there's almost always a mix of anti-vax, pro-putin, toxic masculinity, white supremacist nonsense, etc.
Some prominent British farmers are falling towards this too - promoting articles on far-right websites, mutterings about how scientists, the media and businesses are all working together for a vague group of powerful people.
There's a lot of obvious bots responding to tweets from both upset meat farmers and the meat diet cranks - someone is spending money on trying to radicalise these groups.
posted by BinaryApe at 3:44 AM on October 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
Some prominent British farmers are falling towards this too - promoting articles on far-right websites, mutterings about how scientists, the media and businesses are all working together for a vague group of powerful people.
There's a lot of obvious bots responding to tweets from both upset meat farmers and the meat diet cranks - someone is spending money on trying to radicalise these groups.
posted by BinaryApe at 3:44 AM on October 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
Wait, I thought that whole “Great Reset” conspiracy pre-dated the pandemic?
posted by eviemath at 3:46 AM on October 11, 2022
posted by eviemath at 3:46 AM on October 11, 2022
Wait, I thought that whole “Great Reset” conspiracy pre-dated the pandemic?
Facts, dammit! Why do you keep insisting on facts!?
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:48 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Facts, dammit! Why do you keep insisting on facts!?
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:48 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
BELATED CONTENT WARNING: Apologies, I missed the body-shaming part buried more deeply in the fucking article, so this is a belated flag. Of course, bigoted, racist dudes promoting "raw egg slonking" and who worship the (imagined) past are going to be shitty about body size. This article was a mind fuck for me because I never imagined neo-nazis taking a stand against Big Agriculture. Still, the Venn Diagram between these folks and me shows not much overlap.
Thanks for the comments thus far. eviemath, you may be right. I don't follow conspiracies in general. BinaryApe, it is unsurprising but sad to hear about British farmers falling for this nonsense.
As someone who approaches eggs and other potentially salmonella-tainted foodstuffs carefully, if a bunch of white supremacists want to chow down on raw eggs, raw milk, and/or raw meat, including organs, I say: Chow down, guys. Bon appetite!
(if this article is too gloomy, go read the falcon fuck hat story. It may perk you right up.)
posted by Bella Donna at 3:51 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Thanks for the comments thus far. eviemath, you may be right. I don't follow conspiracies in general. BinaryApe, it is unsurprising but sad to hear about British farmers falling for this nonsense.
As someone who approaches eggs and other potentially salmonella-tainted foodstuffs carefully, if a bunch of white supremacists want to chow down on raw eggs, raw milk, and/or raw meat, including organs, I say: Chow down, guys. Bon appetite!
(if this article is too gloomy, go read the falcon fuck hat story. It may perk you right up.)
posted by Bella Donna at 3:51 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
if a bunch of white supremacists want to chow down on raw eggs, raw milk, and/or raw meat, including organs,
Oh my gosh, this comment helps explain the 20-something young man buying a cows heart at the farmers market. A cows heart is a massive thing, and most white suburban-dressed young men probably weren’t raised on organ meat. I’d assumed that maybe he was one of those “make your own sausage, it’s a manly pursuit” people, but this context makes more sense.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:00 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Oh my gosh, this comment helps explain the 20-something young man buying a cows heart at the farmers market. A cows heart is a massive thing, and most white suburban-dressed young men probably weren’t raised on organ meat. I’d assumed that maybe he was one of those “make your own sausage, it’s a manly pursuit” people, but this context makes more sense.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:00 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
It was a non-rhetorical question! The Great Reset conspiracy does seem to basically be the same old John Birch Society conspiracies just re-packaged under a different name, so it’s entirely possible that I’ve just been lumping them all together as one single thing in my mind, and am misremembering when I first heard this “Great Reset” term.
posted by eviemath at 4:11 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:11 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don’t suppose we will lose a generation of the far-right to foodborne illnesses and high cholesterol, will we?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:14 AM on October 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:14 AM on October 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
We not discussing raw veganism here then I take it? I'll skip the paleo plus extra-salmonella guys thanks..
Animal-based foods must be taxed to oblivious, given they account for 21% of all global carbon emissions (60% of food emissions)
We'd still retain any "cultural heritage" around meat consumption since a fancy steak place charging $100 per place could survive if they charged $200, but if McDonalds must charge $30-50 for a burger then people stop eating there.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:17 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Animal-based foods must be taxed to oblivious, given they account for 21% of all global carbon emissions (60% of food emissions)
We'd still retain any "cultural heritage" around meat consumption since a fancy steak place charging $100 per place could survive if they charged $200, but if McDonalds must charge $30-50 for a burger then people stop eating there.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:17 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don’t suppose we will lose a generation of the far-right to foodborne illnesses and high cholesterol, will we?
There seems to have been a small flurry of articles lately about Covid killing more Republicans than Democrats, presumably due to anti-mask and anti-vax behaviors.....so who knows?
posted by gimonca at 4:34 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Ok then, to answer my own question, here’s Naomi Klein from December, 2020: The Great Reset Conspiracy Snoothie
posted by eviemath at 4:42 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:42 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don’t suppose we will lose a generation of the far-right to foodborne illnesses and high cholesterol, will we?
A gal can dream...
posted by Bella Donna at 5:33 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
A gal can dream...
posted by Bella Donna at 5:33 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
I really am not of fan of this association being formed between people with despicable opinions and unhealthiness. Being sick is not a moral failing.
posted by Mizu at 5:37 AM on October 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 5:37 AM on October 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
purity of essence...
posted by clawsoon at 5:39 AM on October 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 5:39 AM on October 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
(Do I remember Jonathan Haidt arguing that "purity" is a "moral foundation" that conservatives care about but liberals don't?)
posted by clawsoon at 5:42 AM on October 11, 2022
posted by clawsoon at 5:42 AM on October 11, 2022
Being sick is not a moral failing, Mizu. I agree. To be fair, I was not attempting to link the two in that way. It's just that if some folks with despicable opinions get sick partly because of their opinions, I will struggle not to feel schadenfreude. That is shallow of me, yes. I do not wish illness or death on anyone. But if these assholes insist on practices that make them more vulnerable to disease and illness, that is not on me.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:23 AM on October 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 6:23 AM on October 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
Gee, my exposure to raw food has been Whole Foods, Sprouts, and the local food coop. I think it's anti-vaxxing showing up on both the left and the right. In some ways, we're all part of the same culture.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:41 AM on October 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:41 AM on October 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
"a 36-raw-eggs-a-day diet" - I think this would have horrified me in my pre-vegan days.
posted by doctornemo at 6:55 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 6:55 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Alt-Right-Delete
posted by chavenet at 7:01 AM on October 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 7:01 AM on October 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
"a 36-raw-eggs-a-day diet"
hashtag Gastoncore
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:21 AM on October 11, 2022 [35 favorites]
hashtag Gastoncore
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:21 AM on October 11, 2022 [35 favorites]
People dumb enough to fall for the big white supremacy grift will also fall for “health” based grifts. This is just people tapping that market.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 7:23 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 7:23 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Silvery Fish: Oh my gosh, this comment helps explain the 20-something young man buying a cows heart at the farmers market.
Or he has cats. Cats love cow's heart.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:25 AM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
Or he has cats. Cats love cow's heart.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:25 AM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
I never imagined neo-nazis taking a stand against Big Agriculture.
Oh, there's a whole movement. There's an intersection of right-wing homeschooling back-to-the-land prepper quiverful gold-bug folks. I was raised in this movement and still have friends, or at least people I find it hard to cut off, in it. Rod Dreher's first book, Crunchy Conservatives, was about this.
The linked article touches on white supremacists using milk as a symbol of European superiority (due to Europeans having the mutation to digest lactose) but I think there's more to it than that. I had a weird realization about ten years ago that many of the arguments in favor of the direct sale of raw milk and its superiority over pasteurized milk from the store map tidily onto arguments against school integration and interracial relationships.
Also, Metafilter's Own Tim Clare had a great interview with Melissa Harrison about her book All Among the Barley, which, though a historical novel, explores some of the ways that the conservation movement can serve as a rhetorical gateway for nativism and fascism.
posted by gauche at 7:27 AM on October 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
Oh, there's a whole movement. There's an intersection of right-wing homeschooling back-to-the-land prepper quiverful gold-bug folks. I was raised in this movement and still have friends, or at least people I find it hard to cut off, in it. Rod Dreher's first book, Crunchy Conservatives, was about this.
The linked article touches on white supremacists using milk as a symbol of European superiority (due to Europeans having the mutation to digest lactose) but I think there's more to it than that. I had a weird realization about ten years ago that many of the arguments in favor of the direct sale of raw milk and its superiority over pasteurized milk from the store map tidily onto arguments against school integration and interracial relationships.
Also, Metafilter's Own Tim Clare had a great interview with Melissa Harrison about her book All Among the Barley, which, though a historical novel, explores some of the ways that the conservation movement can serve as a rhetorical gateway for nativism and fascism.
posted by gauche at 7:27 AM on October 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
GamerGate was a testing ground. The "[insert any niche interest here]-to-white-supremacy pipeline" is very real. They have literal instruction manuals on how to do it. There is definitely someone trying right this minute to infect your niche interest too. Yes, even if your niche interest is "punching Nazis".
posted by Etrigan at 7:28 AM on October 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:28 AM on October 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
I'm currently cooking a cow's heart as a series of meals. It's pretty good meat, less expensive than the usual cuts, and not necessarily political.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:37 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:37 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm currently cooking a cow's heart as a series of meals. It's pretty good meat, less expensive than the usual cuts, and not necessarily political.
Yes. I also am an eater of organ meats and enthusiast of raw milk cheeses. I just hate how the damn Nazis are in everything.
posted by gauche at 7:39 AM on October 11, 2022 [12 favorites]
Yes. I also am an eater of organ meats and enthusiast of raw milk cheeses. I just hate how the damn Nazis are in everything.
posted by gauche at 7:39 AM on October 11, 2022 [12 favorites]
Can we maybe drop the #NotAllOrgans discussion and agree that there is nothing short of actual Nazism that's a 100% indicator of Nazism?
posted by Etrigan at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
This explains a rash of tweets I saw about guys proclaiming that THEY WOULD NOT EAT BUGS. Which, I mean ... It reminded me of when I saw a little kid crying because he was going to a rodeo and he was afraid they would make him ride a bull.
I have to check my impulse to believe that a New World Order or a Great Reset would probably rule if it upsets these people so much. Recently I have been reminding myself to buy some survival rations in case of hurricanes, then getting distracted by making sure I wouldn't be giving money to, well, the kind of people who run a lot of survival food companies.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
I have to check my impulse to believe that a New World Order or a Great Reset would probably rule if it upsets these people so much. Recently I have been reminding myself to buy some survival rations in case of hurricanes, then getting distracted by making sure I wouldn't be giving money to, well, the kind of people who run a lot of survival food companies.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:41 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Like E-Coli and Salmonella, Nazis will infect anything they can.
And, yeah, it's annoying to be trying to be what I consider reasonably prepared for a scenario like "another Sandy or similar big weather thing disrupts my area for a week or two" and setting up stocks of shelf-stable stuff and powdered milk etc without veering worryingly close to the sorts of people who are attempting to be prepared for "when the shit hits the fan", where they will be elevated to the role of hero in an action movie where they get to shoot lots of people and protect their bunkers or whatfuckingever.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:45 AM on October 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
And, yeah, it's annoying to be trying to be what I consider reasonably prepared for a scenario like "another Sandy or similar big weather thing disrupts my area for a week or two" and setting up stocks of shelf-stable stuff and powdered milk etc without veering worryingly close to the sorts of people who are attempting to be prepared for "when the shit hits the fan", where they will be elevated to the role of hero in an action movie where they get to shoot lots of people and protect their bunkers or whatfuckingever.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:45 AM on October 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
"Oh my gosh, this comment helps explain the 20-something young man buying a cows heart at the farmers market. A cows heart is a massive thing, and most white suburban-dressed young men probably weren’t raised on organ meat. I’d assumed that maybe he was one of those “make your own sausage, it’s a manly pursuit” people, but this context makes more sense."
I wasn't raised on organ meats, just maybe a little chicken liver. That guy, as stated, might be buying it for sausage or cat food or any number of recipes from the rest of the world.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:48 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I wasn't raised on organ meats, just maybe a little chicken liver. That guy, as stated, might be buying it for sausage or cat food or any number of recipes from the rest of the world.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:48 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I thought chicken hearts were delicious, I probably would enjoy cow's heart as well. No one here believes that eating organ meats are what makes some people Nazis. We can skip that derail. Etrigan's comment that the "'[insert any niche interest here]-to-white-supremacy pipeline' is very real" had not occurred to me. That sounds alarming and completely plausible. Thank you for the context and also, shit.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yes. I also am an eater of organ meats and enthusiast of raw milk cheeses. I just hate how the damn Nazis are in everything.
As someone who likes brightly patterned shirts, I agree.
posted by acb at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
As someone who likes brightly patterned shirts, I agree.
posted by acb at 7:57 AM on October 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
No one here believes that eating organ meats are what makes some people nazis. We can skip that derail.
Yes, but someone here did say that it made "more sense" to assume a young man they saw buying organ meat is a white supremacist, and that remark went unchallenged until some people began to suggest alternatives, and then those suggesting alternatives were hushed.
posted by distorte at 8:04 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yes, but someone here did say that it made "more sense" to assume a young man they saw buying organ meat is a white supremacist, and that remark went unchallenged until some people began to suggest alternatives, and then those suggesting alternatives were hushed.
posted by distorte at 8:04 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Raw food proponents argue that globalists will oversee the removal of meat and dairy products from modern diets and replace food consumption with novel sources of protein such as plant-based and lab-grown meat. Insect-based foods occupy a particular fixation in this dystopian vision, in which an elite will live on a luxurious meat-based diet while ordinary people will be forced to live in small ‘pods’ and subsist on bugs.
I sometimes think that liberals/futurists get kind of mad when people actually clearly communicate about the ultimate expected outcomes of the future, like it's ok to work towards it but don't say it out loud. I mean, all this is mostly true. Call it dystopian if you want. Call it 'choice'. Call it more environmentally friendly. Whatever.
To advance their ideology, far-right narratives claim that modern health alternatives such as plant-based milk or meat are harmful and affect sexual reproductive abilities due to the presence of hormones.
This has been true as long as I've been alive, with comments about soy. Is it really that different than saying almond milk is a big cause of drought in California? Maybe it technically is, but CA has a huge percentage of their economy based on farm-export, so wanting to get rid of that to stop that drought isn't that different than vague comments about hormones in food. CA isn't actually low on water for populations. Moving some food production back east is just another part of the future that can't be explicitly talked about.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:05 AM on October 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I sometimes think that liberals/futurists get kind of mad when people actually clearly communicate about the ultimate expected outcomes of the future, like it's ok to work towards it but don't say it out loud. I mean, all this is mostly true. Call it dystopian if you want. Call it 'choice'. Call it more environmentally friendly. Whatever.
To advance their ideology, far-right narratives claim that modern health alternatives such as plant-based milk or meat are harmful and affect sexual reproductive abilities due to the presence of hormones.
This has been true as long as I've been alive, with comments about soy. Is it really that different than saying almond milk is a big cause of drought in California? Maybe it technically is, but CA has a huge percentage of their economy based on farm-export, so wanting to get rid of that to stop that drought isn't that different than vague comments about hormones in food. CA isn't actually low on water for populations. Moving some food production back east is just another part of the future that can't be explicitly talked about.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:05 AM on October 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
dude could just be planning for a Dothraki initiation ceremony, sheesh...
posted by supermedusa at 8:07 AM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 8:07 AM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
This has been true as long as I've been alive, with comments about soy. Is it really that different than saying almond milk is a big cause of drought in California? Maybe it technically is, but CA has a huge percentage of their economy based on farm-export, so wanting to get rid of that to stop that drought isn't that different than vague comments about hormones in food.
The difference is that drought is (for now) gender-neutral, and the "hormones" scare is equivalent to an emasculation scare for the manly men who should NOT have to endure any decrease in manhood. It's why "soy boy" is an insult in some circles, while "almond boy" is not.
posted by knotty knots at 8:21 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
The difference is that drought is (for now) gender-neutral, and the "hormones" scare is equivalent to an emasculation scare for the manly men who should NOT have to endure any decrease in manhood. It's why "soy boy" is an insult in some circles, while "almond boy" is not.
posted by knotty knots at 8:21 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yes, but someone here did say that it made "more sense" to assume a young man they saw buying organ meat is a white supremacist, and that remark went unchallenged until some people began to suggest alternatives, and then those suggesting alternatives were hushed.
Saying it's "not necessarily political" is also hushing, in a discussion of how the action is being made political by some people.
posted by Etrigan at 8:23 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Saying it's "not necessarily political" is also hushing, in a discussion of how the action is being made political by some people.
posted by Etrigan at 8:23 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Saying it's "not necessarily political" is also hushing, in a discussion of how the action is being made political by some people
It was a direct response to an unchallenged comment suggesting someone who was buying a cow's heart was mostly likely a white supremacist. Not a response to the phenomenon being described in the article (which I also do not deny is a phenomenon). I'd hope anyone could see the difference between those two kinds of hushing.
posted by distorte at 8:33 AM on October 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
It was a direct response to an unchallenged comment suggesting someone who was buying a cow's heart was mostly likely a white supremacist. Not a response to the phenomenon being described in the article (which I also do not deny is a phenomenon). I'd hope anyone could see the difference between those two kinds of hushing.
posted by distorte at 8:33 AM on October 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
The difference is that drought is (for now) gender-neutral, and the "hormones" scare is equivalent to an emasculation scare for the manly men who should NOT have to endure any decrease in manhood. It's why "soy boy" is an insult in some circles, while "almond boy" is not.
Drought may be gender-neutral, but it's not class nor values neutral, any more than soy boy is, or almond-boy (Silk boy?) might be in the future is.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:39 AM on October 11, 2022
Drought may be gender-neutral, but it's not class nor values neutral, any more than soy boy is, or almond-boy (Silk boy?) might be in the future is.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:39 AM on October 11, 2022
A friend of mine uses cow hearts when she makes chili and it is all kinds of savory tasty.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:47 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 8:47 AM on October 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Drought may be gender-neutral, but it's not class nor values neutral, any more than soy boy is, or almond-boy (Silk boy?) might be in the future is.
Definitely. I was just making a note about how toxic masculinity is a huge part of the carnivore influencer sphere and right-wing spaces generally.
posted by knotty knots at 9:00 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Definitely. I was just making a note about how toxic masculinity is a huge part of the carnivore influencer sphere and right-wing spaces generally.
posted by knotty knots at 9:00 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
You know things are weird when healthy eating and right wing conspiracies overlap.
But I've seen this going back at least 15 years.
I listened to a podcast back then that started off good but gradually deteriorated into conspiracy lunacy and one of his things was the idea that a vegetarian diet was being pushed onto the public so they would become weak. I corresponded with the host and said "The opposite is true. If they don't want us eating meat then explain why the Beef Council is one the biggest lobby groups and tries to force red meat into every standard American diet. You can't even criticize hamburgers ( remember Oprah ?) It's big business. If there's conspiracy against meat they're doing a bad job of promoting it".
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:13 AM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
But I've seen this going back at least 15 years.
I listened to a podcast back then that started off good but gradually deteriorated into conspiracy lunacy and one of his things was the idea that a vegetarian diet was being pushed onto the public so they would become weak. I corresponded with the host and said "The opposite is true. If they don't want us eating meat then explain why the Beef Council is one the biggest lobby groups and tries to force red meat into every standard American diet. You can't even criticize hamburgers ( remember Oprah ?) It's big business. If there's conspiracy against meat they're doing a bad job of promoting it".
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:13 AM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
gauche: The linked article touches on white supremacists using milk as a symbol of European superiority (due to Europeans having the mutation to digest lactose)
Funny thing about that... lactase persistence has evolved more times in more populations in Africa than in Europe. IIRC, we've found 5 lactase persistence alleles so far, and only one of them is found in Europe.
posted by clawsoon at 9:29 AM on October 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
Funny thing about that... lactase persistence has evolved more times in more populations in Africa than in Europe. IIRC, we've found 5 lactase persistence alleles so far, and only one of them is found in Europe.
posted by clawsoon at 9:29 AM on October 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
Yes, but someone here did say that it made "more sense" to assume a young man they saw buying organ meat is a white supremacist,
No. I did not say that, and that is an irresponsible interpretation of what I typed.
What made ‘sense’ to me was the interesction of the threads of the raw food / animal protein movement and toxic masculinity and other conversations I have been having with young, male family members about purpose and feeling adrift and the weird pressures they’ve been feeling from what used to feel like chill online communities. .
What made sense to me was finding myself in a conservative part of a conservative state, seeing a well-dressed, upper-middle class (by the style and brands of clothes), early-20s young man early on a Saturday morning, purchasing the largest cows heart available, which was not cheap.
And - in my current neck of the woods, I am aware that there are ex-military (type) men who hire themselves out as personal outdoors/prepper/(maybe militia?) physical fitness trainers to young 20-something men, for a not small amount of money; usually advertised through church group word-of-mouth. So there is a lot of trying to understand the lay of the land here.
What made ‘sense’ to me is that this anamolous set of facts aligns with a young cis het male who is being swayed; who is reading and being influenced by individuals or media that are on the outer rings of influence that CAN lead to radicalization. These articles gave me context. It gave me an interpretation that fit the observation, but if you had actually asked; inquired to see if your interpretation of my words was acurate, I would have told you, “Good God, no! I didn’t even speak to him! Never saw him outside of that one exchange. My guess is that he’s being influenced by some really conservative and probably troubling voices, but how the hell would I know if he was or was not a supremicist!?”
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:39 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
No. I did not say that, and that is an irresponsible interpretation of what I typed.
What made ‘sense’ to me was the interesction of the threads of the raw food / animal protein movement and toxic masculinity and other conversations I have been having with young, male family members about purpose and feeling adrift and the weird pressures they’ve been feeling from what used to feel like chill online communities. .
What made sense to me was finding myself in a conservative part of a conservative state, seeing a well-dressed, upper-middle class (by the style and brands of clothes), early-20s young man early on a Saturday morning, purchasing the largest cows heart available, which was not cheap.
And - in my current neck of the woods, I am aware that there are ex-military (type) men who hire themselves out as personal outdoors/prepper/(maybe militia?) physical fitness trainers to young 20-something men, for a not small amount of money; usually advertised through church group word-of-mouth. So there is a lot of trying to understand the lay of the land here.
What made ‘sense’ to me is that this anamolous set of facts aligns with a young cis het male who is being swayed; who is reading and being influenced by individuals or media that are on the outer rings of influence that CAN lead to radicalization. These articles gave me context. It gave me an interpretation that fit the observation, but if you had actually asked; inquired to see if your interpretation of my words was acurate, I would have told you, “Good God, no! I didn’t even speak to him! Never saw him outside of that one exchange. My guess is that he’s being influenced by some really conservative and probably troubling voices, but how the hell would I know if he was or was not a supremicist!?”
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:39 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
It was a direct response to an unchallenged comment suggesting someone who was buying a cow's heart was mostly likely a white supremacist.
Let me preface the rest of this comment by saying that I don't mean to suggest that you're doing this intentionally.
But there are bad people out there who exploit this tendency that a lot of people have to step in and defend random strangers that aren't even in the conversation, generally because those people think they share a particular aspect of identity or niche interest with the random stranger that isn't even in the conversation. This was famously a thing a few years back that was eventually lampooned as #NotAllMen -- someone (usually a woman, and disproportionately a woman of color) would say something on social media to the effect of "Ugh, why do men think they can just talk about how I look at work?" They would then be set upon by people saying "Not all men are like that!" "Women do that too!" "Why are you suggesting that someone who says something about how you look is most likely a misogynist?"
I get the impulse. Maybe you're a raw food person or you have cats or you know a delicious cow heart recipe or you just don't want to believe that some random person at a farmers market could be a white supremacist. But it an appear -- at least to some people -- like trying to muddy the waters. As trying to attack the very idea that such people exist, even with parenthetical claims not to be challenging it.
This is why it has become a very conscious tactic of the people who are building the [insert any niche interest here]-to-white-supremacy pipelines. Because it sows doubt. Because people can explain it away in a dozen different ways if challenged. Because then they can claim they're being hushed, and that they are the actual aggrieved party. And the discussion about the pipeline somehow falls by the wayside in favor of grand declarations of Freedom and Speech and Free Speech.
Again, I don't mean to suggest that you're doing this intentionally. I was just asking that maybe we didn't have to have that whole conversation here. Again. Again. Again...
posted by Etrigan at 9:40 AM on October 11, 2022 [19 favorites]
Let me preface the rest of this comment by saying that I don't mean to suggest that you're doing this intentionally.
But there are bad people out there who exploit this tendency that a lot of people have to step in and defend random strangers that aren't even in the conversation, generally because those people think they share a particular aspect of identity or niche interest with the random stranger that isn't even in the conversation. This was famously a thing a few years back that was eventually lampooned as #NotAllMen -- someone (usually a woman, and disproportionately a woman of color) would say something on social media to the effect of "Ugh, why do men think they can just talk about how I look at work?" They would then be set upon by people saying "Not all men are like that!" "Women do that too!" "Why are you suggesting that someone who says something about how you look is most likely a misogynist?"
I get the impulse. Maybe you're a raw food person or you have cats or you know a delicious cow heart recipe or you just don't want to believe that some random person at a farmers market could be a white supremacist. But it an appear -- at least to some people -- like trying to muddy the waters. As trying to attack the very idea that such people exist, even with parenthetical claims not to be challenging it.
This is why it has become a very conscious tactic of the people who are building the [insert any niche interest here]-to-white-supremacy pipelines. Because it sows doubt. Because people can explain it away in a dozen different ways if challenged. Because then they can claim they're being hushed, and that they are the actual aggrieved party. And the discussion about the pipeline somehow falls by the wayside in favor of grand declarations of Freedom and Speech and Free Speech.
Again, I don't mean to suggest that you're doing this intentionally. I was just asking that maybe we didn't have to have that whole conversation here. Again. Again. Again...
posted by Etrigan at 9:40 AM on October 11, 2022 [19 favorites]
(Reminder that on a website like MeFi...many of these types of topics will be brought up again...and again...because not everyone reads every word here. So it's helpful you explained your thinking, Etrigan)
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:45 AM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:45 AM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I went and got my copy of The Sexual Politics of Meat by C.J. Adams to look up it's publication date: 1991. And so the wheel turns.
The last time I ate a raw egg was before setting off on a hunt. Although young I sussed out the symbolism of it. The vitality. I grew up hunting and fishing, and even then there was only a few of us at school, it was a big deal. Skip class to study for the test, sort of deal, not classmates enjoy the smell of freshly smashed alfalfa.
For my dad's social hunting was a central part of people's identity. I say people but it was almost all guys. So much time and energy spent on this pastime. A whole box of bobbers and lures. A whole season of getting up early for a pre-dawn excursion, of weekends out in the fall. Of traveling and traveling and then waiting. Quietly. Patiently. Of course I felt closer to my father, but if there was the talk, it was all of the hunt. The weather, the prey, our plan and always talk of luck. Or better, no talk at all.
It's the perfect activity for the bullshitter. You can just spend an hour talking about this months fashionable lure, with it's white marshmallow head and a rubber ribbon tail, and then some rig, but that's gotta be in this order to trick the fish, while your kid traces patterns in the yellow formica countertop. I remember making each smartie melt and last, and having some gratitude that at least its warm and dry. And patience. And then talk about maybe the spot everyone is trying their luck is hot, maybe it's better to duck the crowd, maybe go to your old favorite spot. Who are you really trying to outsmart - the fish, your buddies, or is the whole point just to dupe mum into doing all the laundry?
Spend the off seasons larping and bragging about all the hits and bigger misses. All the gear, all the talk, and it's all so narrow. Ford truck. An Shimano underspin reel on a composite rod. Winchester rifle in a .308, with a lever action, because John Wayne. 10 point buck in velvet. Is it enough to be seen a provider and a protector? Maybe this year it's time to get a new scope, going to need a new box for all those foam lures, ammo is getting old, maybe this piece of kit will change our luck. Get some respect.
There are few things with a greater disconnect between the reality and imagination, between the actual activity, foraging for food (or fun), and the lifestyle, HUNTER. It's just such a core part of the personality. Among the select it can simply be the whole conversation, the entirety of the relationship with others. And all of that for what? To cook up a stunt meal where the mule deer just tastes like rag weed and a bunch of greasy sausages? They know it's entirely unnecessary, its become ritual.
Over time the hunting and fishing crowd is mostly just aging out, and simply turning into the very trophy tourists that the locals all hated. It's a crisis of identity, of what being a man is, and it's been a long time coming. A handfuls of eggs won't fill that void, but maybe if these guys do the motions and sacraments then they will at least appear to be real men.
posted by zenon at 9:46 AM on October 11, 2022 [17 favorites]
The last time I ate a raw egg was before setting off on a hunt. Although young I sussed out the symbolism of it. The vitality. I grew up hunting and fishing, and even then there was only a few of us at school, it was a big deal. Skip class to study for the test, sort of deal, not classmates enjoy the smell of freshly smashed alfalfa.
For my dad's social hunting was a central part of people's identity. I say people but it was almost all guys. So much time and energy spent on this pastime. A whole box of bobbers and lures. A whole season of getting up early for a pre-dawn excursion, of weekends out in the fall. Of traveling and traveling and then waiting. Quietly. Patiently. Of course I felt closer to my father, but if there was the talk, it was all of the hunt. The weather, the prey, our plan and always talk of luck. Or better, no talk at all.
It's the perfect activity for the bullshitter. You can just spend an hour talking about this months fashionable lure, with it's white marshmallow head and a rubber ribbon tail, and then some rig, but that's gotta be in this order to trick the fish, while your kid traces patterns in the yellow formica countertop. I remember making each smartie melt and last, and having some gratitude that at least its warm and dry. And patience. And then talk about maybe the spot everyone is trying their luck is hot, maybe it's better to duck the crowd, maybe go to your old favorite spot. Who are you really trying to outsmart - the fish, your buddies, or is the whole point just to dupe mum into doing all the laundry?
Spend the off seasons larping and bragging about all the hits and bigger misses. All the gear, all the talk, and it's all so narrow. Ford truck. An Shimano underspin reel on a composite rod. Winchester rifle in a .308, with a lever action, because John Wayne. 10 point buck in velvet. Is it enough to be seen a provider and a protector? Maybe this year it's time to get a new scope, going to need a new box for all those foam lures, ammo is getting old, maybe this piece of kit will change our luck. Get some respect.
There are few things with a greater disconnect between the reality and imagination, between the actual activity, foraging for food (or fun), and the lifestyle, HUNTER. It's just such a core part of the personality. Among the select it can simply be the whole conversation, the entirety of the relationship with others. And all of that for what? To cook up a stunt meal where the mule deer just tastes like rag weed and a bunch of greasy sausages? They know it's entirely unnecessary, its become ritual.
Over time the hunting and fishing crowd is mostly just aging out, and simply turning into the very trophy tourists that the locals all hated. It's a crisis of identity, of what being a man is, and it's been a long time coming. A handfuls of eggs won't fill that void, but maybe if these guys do the motions and sacraments then they will at least appear to be real men.
posted by zenon at 9:46 AM on October 11, 2022 [17 favorites]
oh, almost forgot, it turns out I'm allergic to raw eggs.
posted by zenon at 9:49 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by zenon at 9:49 AM on October 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
A friend of mine uses cow hearts when she makes chili and it is all kinds of savory tasty.
It's the most nutritious meat you can eat basically. I don't normally eat red meat or pork but I've had cow heart lately for health reasons.
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:56 AM on October 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
@Etrigan - I appreciate your concerns. I was specifically addressing distorte's comment. I appreciate your (Etrigan) continued example of staying engaged in a complicated conversation with both curiosity and personal integrity. Thank you.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:06 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:06 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
when your culture fears spice so much that merely cooking food makes it "too peppery"
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:25 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:25 AM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
We shouldn’t tax or forbid meat eating to reduce CO2 emissions, we should tax or forbid CO2 emissions and let people use the remaining ones for their own purposes.
Relevant to meat and milk: mixed farming, meaning animal and plant crops as a mutual system, have many very high-net-output forms. It’s how everything evolved, after all. They vary by region and cuisine and don’t fit well into an economic and cultural system that values low labor costs and extreme uniformity in food and high urban land costs.
Eg, public orchards could run hogs on the windfall and urban food waste; but pig herd is another job and urban pig herd is a specialty if we don’t want exciting new diseases. I’d rather live in a world arranged to allow that, I think it allows pleasures and jobs that many people could like a lot, there are a few successful examples even in the US. It’s more work and regulation than my hippie friends assume but more food and less stench than my conventional friends assume.
And I think conventional ag gets a lot of political cover by saying the only alternative is eating bugs, and I don’t want conventional ag to win all the fights.
posted by clew at 11:26 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Relevant to meat and milk: mixed farming, meaning animal and plant crops as a mutual system, have many very high-net-output forms. It’s how everything evolved, after all. They vary by region and cuisine and don’t fit well into an economic and cultural system that values low labor costs and extreme uniformity in food and high urban land costs.
Eg, public orchards could run hogs on the windfall and urban food waste; but pig herd is another job and urban pig herd is a specialty if we don’t want exciting new diseases. I’d rather live in a world arranged to allow that, I think it allows pleasures and jobs that many people could like a lot, there are a few successful examples even in the US. It’s more work and regulation than my hippie friends assume but more food and less stench than my conventional friends assume.
And I think conventional ag gets a lot of political cover by saying the only alternative is eating bugs, and I don’t want conventional ag to win all the fights.
posted by clew at 11:26 AM on October 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
If you haven't already, you should check out the podcast called Conspirituality. They discuss this topic and many related topics. It helped me understand some of these weird nexuses. For example, how you get the QAnon Shaman and his dietary needs in prison. It's too complicated to explain here, but they have many good episodes. Start at the beginning.
posted by readyfreddy at 12:18 PM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by readyfreddy at 12:18 PM on October 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
Or you could be in wisconsin where they've been doing raw meat sandwiches for ages and using fucking ground beef like they have a death wish.
posted by Ferreous at 12:24 PM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 12:24 PM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
But on a more serious note it's really depressing that the act of raw meat consumption has been turned into a culture war thing. We accept sushi as a valid form of food because it can be done safely to a degree that's considered acceptable. There's lots of cultural traditions from around the world that involve raw meats but it's miserable that stuff like steak tartare or carpaccio is getting lumped into weird fash bullshit. Raw meat can taste great, it's not always some weird affectation.
posted by Ferreous at 12:29 PM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 12:29 PM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m very sad that the US gave up on safe eggs, it rules out so many delicious dishes. (Including possibly the original Krispy Kremes, which my childhood Atlanta memory has as pretty darn … eggy creamy inside.)
posted by clew at 12:34 PM on October 11, 2022
posted by clew at 12:34 PM on October 11, 2022
In some ways, we're all part of the same culture.
People leaning too far to the right eventually go in a circle to the people leaning too far to the left.
posted by Melismata at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
People leaning too far to the right eventually go in a circle to the people leaning too far to the left.
posted by Melismata at 12:38 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
eggs and other potentially salmonella-tainted foodstuffs
this is because USian farmers are too cheap to vaccinate for salmonella (it is much less of a risk in Europe).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:37 PM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
this is because USian farmers are too cheap to vaccinate for salmonella (it is much less of a risk in Europe).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:37 PM on October 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not sure if "cheap" is the right word, but yes there's no reason why they shouldn't vaccinate.
posted by Melismata at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2022
posted by Melismata at 1:46 PM on October 11, 2022
Oh my gosh, this comment helps explain the 20-something young man buying a cows heart at the farmers market.
It’s October. I’m thinking some more along the lines of a particularly grizzly halloween display.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:45 PM on October 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
It’s October. I’m thinking some more along the lines of a particularly grizzly halloween display.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:45 PM on October 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I feel like we already covered a lot of this in talking about Tucker Carlson's Men, Tan Those Balls! special.
posted by emjaybee at 4:29 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 4:29 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I get safe raw eggs on the regular, this is very dependant on where you are in the US and how much you're willing to spend on eggs
posted by aspersioncast at 4:55 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 4:55 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
> it's really depressing that the act of raw meat consumption has been turned into a culture war thing
I was prepared to question that it had, because I love reading about weird diets and hadn't run into this particular granularity, but then I saw that Raw Egg Nationalist has 100,000 followers on Twitter. Bizarre.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was prepared to question that it had, because I love reading about weird diets and hadn't run into this particular granularity, but then I saw that Raw Egg Nationalist has 100,000 followers on Twitter. Bizarre.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: slonking raw eggs, wbu?
posted by slater at 9:49 PM on October 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by slater at 9:49 PM on October 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have slowly over the years developed a sort of half-baked thesis about the horrifying and fascinating allure of the concept of purity and how it seems to inform a lot of crankery, from right-wing extremists and fascists (purity of blood, purity of race, purity of culture) to evangelical christians (sexual purity, purity of heart, purity of thought) to certain (honestly, many) strains of environmentalism (purity of genes, purity of soil, purity of the untouched wild) to diet, health and wellness cranks (purity of food and drink, purity of clothes, purity of skincare and cleaning products...), and it's not surprising to me to see it all kind of come together.
What has in common is a worldview where the simple, well-defined, easy to categorize, black and white, traditional and old-fashioned is good, while everything mixed, processed, altered, inbetween, shades of gray, nuanced, unconvinced, or uncertain is bad. It's a love for simple solutions, absolute truths, and unchanging, ancient wisdom. Basically, lots of hippies, environmentalists, and general "spiritual" people are becoming fascists, as a reaction against modernity and rationality. Hell, I even read a very convincing take the other day on how astrology easily leads to fascism.
I don't really know what to do about this, other than resist it with all my might. If nothing else, it's kind of validating to see all the things I hate come together and become one big mass I can more easily point at and say "that's what I'm against" all in one.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:45 PM on October 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
What has in common is a worldview where the simple, well-defined, easy to categorize, black and white, traditional and old-fashioned is good, while everything mixed, processed, altered, inbetween, shades of gray, nuanced, unconvinced, or uncertain is bad. It's a love for simple solutions, absolute truths, and unchanging, ancient wisdom. Basically, lots of hippies, environmentalists, and general "spiritual" people are becoming fascists, as a reaction against modernity and rationality. Hell, I even read a very convincing take the other day on how astrology easily leads to fascism.
I don't really know what to do about this, other than resist it with all my might. If nothing else, it's kind of validating to see all the things I hate come together and become one big mass I can more easily point at and say "that's what I'm against" all in one.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:45 PM on October 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
Oh, and I forgot to mention, general TERFery and anti-trans bigotry is of course at the forefront of this. There's nothing as impure and violating of clear, basic categories and boundaries to these people as those who dare to stretch, straddle, or cross gender boundaries.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:47 PM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:47 PM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
There tends to be little to no TERFery in far-right communities, what with the first half of that term standing for radical feminist. There are not many radical feminists, trans exclusionary or otherwise, in far right communities. They are garden variety transphobes.
posted by Dysk at 12:00 AM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:00 AM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
(SECOND half. "TE" does not stand for 'radical feminist'. Coffee time!)
posted by Dysk at 12:19 AM on October 12, 2022
posted by Dysk at 12:19 AM on October 12, 2022
In practice, TERFs are no more radical feminists than National Socialists are socialists.
posted by acb at 2:41 AM on October 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:41 AM on October 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's not how it works - it's not a self-chosen label, for one thing, so it's nobody trying to sanitise anything, it was coined by radical feminists to differentiate themselves from transphobic radical feminists because radfem was getting to mean what TERF now does (or did, based on how people are apparently using it for any old transphobe now, as long as they're a middle class white woman?) in trans communities.
A lot of people do hold some of the core tenets of radical feminism (as a branch of feminism, as opposed to e.g. liberal feminism, not to suggest that their feminism is more radical in the common language sense) and have very odious, outspoken views on trans people. It is useful to have a term for that, for transphobia from within an otherwise progressive feminism.
The far right is not that, it is generally very opposed to that camp on everything else (but as with all things right wing culture war, that doesn't stop them working together on the one thing they agree on).
posted by Dysk at 3:58 AM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
A lot of people do hold some of the core tenets of radical feminism (as a branch of feminism, as opposed to e.g. liberal feminism, not to suggest that their feminism is more radical in the common language sense) and have very odious, outspoken views on trans people. It is useful to have a term for that, for transphobia from within an otherwise progressive feminism.
The far right is not that, it is generally very opposed to that camp on everything else (but as with all things right wing culture war, that doesn't stop them working together on the one thing they agree on).
posted by Dysk at 3:58 AM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Saying that tradfems and Nazis aren't real TERFs is like saying that, for example, Green Day fans aren't real punks. It's an unwinnable battle.
posted by acb at 4:14 AM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 4:14 AM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Melismata:
>>In some ways, we're all part of the same culture.
>People leaning too far to the right eventually go in a circle to the people leaning too far to the left.
That's part of it, but the center is also changing. I remember the 60s, when it was possible to just eat. It was simpler then-- food didn't have nearly as much cultural, political, medical, and pseudo-medical loading as it does now.
I'm not saying it was simply better then-- good food is much more available now, and I thank the yuppies. It was restful, though.
However, if the middle is more passionate, it's not surprising if the extremes get more extreme.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:17 AM on October 12, 2022
>>In some ways, we're all part of the same culture.
>People leaning too far to the right eventually go in a circle to the people leaning too far to the left.
That's part of it, but the center is also changing. I remember the 60s, when it was possible to just eat. It was simpler then-- food didn't have nearly as much cultural, political, medical, and pseudo-medical loading as it does now.
I'm not saying it was simply better then-- good food is much more available now, and I thank the yuppies. It was restful, though.
However, if the middle is more passionate, it's not surprising if the extremes get more extreme.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:17 AM on October 12, 2022
I call them FARTs, feminism approporiating reactionary transphobes.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 4:34 AM on October 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 4:34 AM on October 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
Fantastic, Pyrogenesis!
posted by Bella Donna at 5:01 AM on October 12, 2022
posted by Bella Donna at 5:01 AM on October 12, 2022
I mean, zing and all, but that zinger's been around a while and TERFs have only gotten stronger.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:04 AM on October 12, 2022
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:04 AM on October 12, 2022
But it puts a smile on my face every time I see them called FARTs. Try it!
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:56 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:56 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Saying that tradfems and Nazis aren't real TERFs is like saying that, for example, Green Day fans aren't real punks. It's an unwinnable battle.
It may be equally unwinnable, but it is nothing like that. For one, what you describe is bullshit gatekeeping - any Green Day fans who consider themselves punks are punks. TERF is not an exclusive club that anyone really wants membership of, unlike subcultural identities.
I'm in favour of calling a spade and spade. The world may consistently fail to get the distinction between a spade and a shovel with no prospect of that changing with any amount of reminding, but they are not the same thing, and when you operate in a field where the items are happened across regularly, it is very useful to be able to distinguish the two things. So it is with TERFs and garden variety transphobes.
posted by Dysk at 12:42 AM on October 14, 2022
It may be equally unwinnable, but it is nothing like that. For one, what you describe is bullshit gatekeeping - any Green Day fans who consider themselves punks are punks. TERF is not an exclusive club that anyone really wants membership of, unlike subcultural identities.
I'm in favour of calling a spade and spade. The world may consistently fail to get the distinction between a spade and a shovel with no prospect of that changing with any amount of reminding, but they are not the same thing, and when you operate in a field where the items are happened across regularly, it is very useful to be able to distinguish the two things. So it is with TERFs and garden variety transphobes.
posted by Dysk at 12:42 AM on October 14, 2022
Dysk, I think that while far-right communities don't give rise to many TERFs, but indeed just garden variety transphobes, I have seen enough radfems start by getting into TERFery, drifting right, and end up adopting other parts of the far-right agenda that I'm comfortable saying that there are TERFs in the extreme right now.
I forgot who right now, but there was fairly recently a high-profile TERF on Twitter who suddenly started retweeting stuff about "the Jews" and making comments like "I'd never noticed how many TRAs are Jewish", which is basically just full-on antisemitic "transgender people are a Jewish plot to destroy traditional gender roles" bullshit.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:37 PM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I forgot who right now, but there was fairly recently a high-profile TERF on Twitter who suddenly started retweeting stuff about "the Jews" and making comments like "I'd never noticed how many TRAs are Jewish", which is basically just full-on antisemitic "transgender people are a Jewish plot to destroy traditional gender roles" bullshit.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:37 PM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
It has often been pointed out that conspiratorial thinking and bigotry don't come in neat little isolated packages, but instead slowly take over all of thinking. Maybe initially there are isolated weird beliefs, but over time they become total worldviews. Originally particular beliefs (say, there is no global warming, it's scientists only saying that in order to get grant money) in no time become ideas about science being false and lefty academics taking over universities to brainwash people into destroying Western (read: white) civilization. So yeah, experience shows that a "garden variety transphobe" is just a step, soon to be abandoned, in favor of a belief in "gender ideology" that is being pushed on all children in primary schools, soon to be followed by forced taking of back alley hormones or some such shit (we actually had a thread about that only recently).
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:56 PM on October 14, 2022
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:56 PM on October 14, 2022
So yeah, experience shows that a "garden variety transphobe" is just a step, soon to be abandoned, in favor of a belief in "gender ideology" that is being pushed on all children in primary schools, soon to be followed by forced taking of back alley hormones or some such shit
That still is a garden variety transphobe? That's just intensifying the transphobia, not abandoning anything? Like, it's not a term to diminish their transphobia, it's to differentiate from TERFs (a particular subgroup). Garden variety transphobes are no less unhinged, no less bigoted, no less dangerous. They're just a different flavour.
posted by Dysk at 2:04 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
That still is a garden variety transphobe? That's just intensifying the transphobia, not abandoning anything? Like, it's not a term to diminish their transphobia, it's to differentiate from TERFs (a particular subgroup). Garden variety transphobes are no less unhinged, no less bigoted, no less dangerous. They're just a different flavour.
posted by Dysk at 2:04 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm just not sure what sort of a "flavour" TERFs are? In my mind I associate them with the sort of total ideologues like Maya Forstarter who recently had the meltdown about a children's mascot. Which isn't particularly garden variety. Maybe I don't get what you mean?
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:31 AM on October 15, 2022
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:31 AM on October 15, 2022
TERF is just a particular strain of transphobia based in radical feminist analysis rather than so much else. That's it. It says nothing about intensity either way.
posted by Dysk at 2:38 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:38 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
WTF is "radical feminist analysis" which somehow makes TERFs different?
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:46 AM on October 15, 2022
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:46 AM on October 15, 2022
An analysis based in radical feminism, which is a branch of feminism (and not necessarily particularly radical in the sense that we use the word in daily speech).
posted by Dysk at 3:01 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 3:01 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
The alternative food, thing has always been anti-establishment. Nowadays they have to forage for which anti-establishment stance to take, in order to profit, or prophet.
posted by Oyéah at 11:50 AM on October 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 11:50 AM on October 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Im late to this, but a lot of TERFs seem to come out of Second Wave Feminism (although not all Second Wave Feminists became TERFs). Part of the radical (meaning “root” not “extreme”) feminism of that time came to the conclusion that gender was the problem and flattening gender differences the answer. So unisex children’s toys, for example. In this reading, trans women are seen as extreme gender performers (to to expectations of cis doctors) and, therefore, a problem. Other radical feminists of the time wanted to expunge anything “male” from their lives, and, in the crude analysis of the time, included trans women in that group. These stances arise, mistakenly, from a feminist analysis that, developed in the 60s and 70s, was not up to the changes and pressures of the 90s, much less the last 2 decades.
All of this arises from very different impulses and analyses than those of right wing trans phones, even if the latter sometimes appropriates the language of the former. Theoretically, TERFs could be argued around by showing how their particular trans phobia hurts women, while the garden variety transphobes can’t, because, among other things, they are steeped in misogyny. In practice, of course, TERF beliefs are irrational and difficult to argue with, but Dysk is correct that they arise from different impulses.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:10 PM on October 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
All of this arises from very different impulses and analyses than those of right wing trans phones, even if the latter sometimes appropriates the language of the former. Theoretically, TERFs could be argued around by showing how their particular trans phobia hurts women, while the garden variety transphobes can’t, because, among other things, they are steeped in misogyny. In practice, of course, TERF beliefs are irrational and difficult to argue with, but Dysk is correct that they arise from different impulses.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:10 PM on October 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
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posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:23 AM on October 11, 2022 [9 favorites]