The Full English Brexit
June 27, 2016 8:13 AM   Subscribe

Brexit: why Britain left the EU, explained with a simple cartoon [Vox] // UK appeals for calm as markets drop, EU leaders huddle [AP] // David Cameron resigns after UK votes to leave European Union [Guardian], Brexit: David Cameron rules out second EU referendum [Independent] // Brexit: Six key questions after Britain's vote to exit the EU [BBC] // Brexit loophole? MPs must still vote in order for Britain to leave the EU, top lawyers say [Independent] // Brexit: Germany rules out informal negotiations [BBC]

Brexit: Racist abuse in UK reported since vote to leave EU [CNN]
UK faces Brexit crisis after Europe’s leaders demand: ‘Get out now’ [Guardian]

Boris Johnson 'I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe – and always will be '[Telegraph] with commentary from Yves Smith: Boris “Just Kidding” Johnson Outlines His Rainbows and Unicorns Brexit Plan[NC]

WELCOME TO EUROPEAN UNION 'B' [Politico EU, and actually Poland]:
Thoughts on the sociology of Brexit
Brexit was not fuelled by a vision of the future


One of the most insightful things I saw in the run-up to the referendum was this video produced by openDemocracy’s Adam Ramsey and Anthony Barnett discussing their visit to Doncaster, another Labour heartland. They chose Doncaster because it looked set to be a strong pro-Leave location, and wanted to understand what was at work in this. Crucially, they observed that – in strong contrast to the Scottish ‘Yes’ movement – Brexit was not fuelled by hope for a different future. On the contrary, many Leavers believed that withdrawing from the EU wouldn’t really change things one way or the other, but they still wanted to do it. I’ve long suspected that, on some unconscious level, things could be even stranger than this: the self-harm inflicted by Brexit could potentially be part of its appeal. It is now being reported that many Leave voters are aghast at what they’ve done, as if they never really intended for their actions to yield results.
Meet 10 Britons who voted to leave the EU [Guardian] - The Revolt Of The Losers Is Just Beginning[Washington Post] in the Land of Hope And Glory [NC]- " Despite my highest respect for Wren-Lewis, he left the most important figure out of his calculation: For the increasingly financially squeezed unemployed and receivers of benefits in Britain what does it matter if GDP shrinks after Brexit. Their plight can only become worse, come Brexit or not. "
Brexit is being driven by English nationalism. And it will end in self-rule [Guardian]
The Whistle and The Dogs: When Being Racist Doesn't Matter
A memory I also go to is the brother in law of an ex of mine who considered the word racist a curious badge of honour. He did not consider himself a racist or think racism itself was a good thing but the word was an alien insult profligately shouted by an alien cultural class who looked down on him and his. This is the small c conservative equivalent of a left winger being proud when he is called a "Trotskyite homo-Islamist" by the Daily Mail. Michael and his friends were from a small town in Lancashire and spoke as much about thieving bankers as they did about them "Asian cabbies whom don't mix". What struck me about about them in our chats was their lack of knowledge about their radical history, heritage or agency. They were abandoned by both liberals and conservatives alike, but at least conservative could still prey on their fears and talk in their language.
LINK COMPILATIONS:
The reactions to Brexit show its true significance
Why Brexit happened and what it means
Live from the British Conservatives' Self-Made Gehenna: The Full English Brexit:
links to comments (mine) in prior longthread
previously 1
previously 2
previously 3
previously 4

SEE THE FUTURE, NOW:
Get a glimpse of Dalston’s apocalyptic, post-Brexit future
A Brexit State of Mind: The Vision Thing - "That’s just how it is when the old ideas have reached the limits of their powers, but new ideas have yet to prove themselves. There’s a lot of lurching about, grabbing on to anything that can be shaped into halfway sensible discourse. Yes, let a thousand flowers bloom. But nine hundred ninety-five of them will rot. Such is the way of the world."

previously: UK Goes To Polls In EU Referendum
posted by the man of twists and turns (2090 comments total) 165 users marked this as a favorite
 
Thanks for starting us a fresh thread, the man of twists and turns.

Martin Kettle at the Guardian: What Boris Johnson said about Brexit – and what he really meant.
posted by rory at 8:22 AM on June 27, 2016


Pre-leavening the seriousness: A UK minister who's now out :-)
posted by chavenet at 8:24 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]




I know it´s normally frowned upon but I will crosspost here from the end of the last mega thread
Geoffrey Robertson QC
How to stop Brexit: get your MP to vote it down.
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


You know, I know the Brexist isn't a good thing, but I do enjoy watching all those establishment politicians heads spinning, all asking "why don't people trust us anymore."

Or rather, I would enjoy it, if it weren't so damn frustrating and frightening.

Even Tony fucking Blair had the audacity to ask why people didn't trust the establishment. I mean, it's not like he dragged the country into a phony war and lied through his fucking teeth about it or anything.

Oh, wait.

Beyond the sarcasm, though, neoliberalism has brought us decades of the rug being pulled out from under the common man (and yes, the "common man" does include xenophobic fuckheads), and people wonder why uneducated xenophobic racists turn to blame their problems on foreigners when the news is telling them that their conservative government is doing the right thing, and that it must be this other bogeyman: terrorism.

Yes, Brexit definitely was about racism, but I think we'd all be remiss to not step back and look at how neoliberal economics has wrought the current situation, and without big changes, we're stepping headlong either into facism lead by fanatics who are finally tired of getting screwed but never really figured out who was screwing them, and so blame the wrong people (let's also not pretend that certain media outlets and decades of the WAR ON TER'RISM didn't help breed this deep seated racism.) or into a scary Big Brother future where the old elites try to keep control by using new technology instead of realizing they are huge fuck ups.

Acting like it all just came out of nowhere is missing the fucking picture.

---

To me, this is really no different than Bernie Sanders supporters saying they would rather vote for Trump than Clinton.

Those people don't care what kind of change they get, as long as it is genuinely change, something different from the status quo. They are just sick of shit as it stands and no current politicians actually make any real changes to help them.

I highly suspect there was a good deal of that attitude in the Leave vote as well.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [87 favorites]


Yes, Brexit definitely was about racism, but I think we'd all be remiss to not step back and look at how neoliberal economics has wrought the current situation,

Wait, do you want integrated markets (like the EU fosters), or not?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.

Well, then they're fucking dumb, because unaccountable bureaucrats in London are still going to be doing all of the heavy lifting. But I guess they'll be native-English-speaking unaccountable bureaucrats, so that's not really racism either.
posted by Etrigan at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [39 favorites]


Previously
posted by beerperson at 8:38 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Boris Johnson: "British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

Well, sure, if Britain wants to pay a premium for it. Premium rates, no automaticity, and no say in the rules. In that sense, ol' Boris is right.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:39 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.

I think this is a really good argument for why we need better education about the political and legislative process, starting formally in schools and continuing via proper engagement with the mechanics of democracy throughout the lifetime of all our citizens, yes?

(this seems like a more constructive response than banging my head repeatedly off a table.)
posted by Catseye at 8:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


[Several comments removed. Let's not start this off with the laziest possible "well here's my simple, unsourced explanation why X is correct and Y is not, QED" fight-starter. There's several thousand comments in the previous thread if you're just catching up with the conversation and want to temper your hot takes.]
posted by cortex at 8:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


Wait, do you want integrated markets (like the EU fosters), or not?

I do, but as we've seen in the first world with stagnating wages and crumbling social safety nets, most of the benefits of the worldwide capitalist market go to the people lowest on the scale, and the benefits to them are really marginal at best, in my opinion.

Yeah, great that someone in China is now making $2 in a factory instead of $1 a day in the fields.

The problem is that it is undermining any semblance of a decent life in first world countries, the same countries whose safety nets have been dismantled for decades.

Also, I just have fundamental issues with us valuing human labor differently based on the country someone was born in. To me, those people are human, and their labor should be valued as much as anybodies, not a fraction of the value of my labor, because they are in China.

Anyway, I guess my point is that a lot of people do not consider any major first-world governments to be capable of proposing worthwhile solutions. Solutions that benefit all, not just a few. Solutions that don't reduce our quality of life while improving the quality of life of others around the world.

A EU specific example would be how things were handled with Greece. Was forcing the Greek people to suffer over debt really the best solution? How can the EU even begin to feel unified after such a clusterfuck? The Greeks are mad that they've been made to suffer even more than other European countries, and what for, what great good came of it? How can anyone look at how all that went down and go "Oh yeah, it totally makes sense to make millions suffer over fucking government bureaucracy."

Maybe it's because of all the fucking austerity we've been made to suffer after decades of lies about terrorism in the middle east. Maybe we're tired of war propping up economies and tired of what little help we have cut out from under us when we're suffering.

Me, I have zero faith that current world leaders have any fucking clue what they are doing other than looting the coffers before the whole show falls apart.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:44 AM on June 27, 2016 [40 favorites]


Watching Parliament it seems like Cameron wants and forsees Norway. Or at least he's desperately assuring everyone that's the best situation.

I realize the next PM can blatantly ignore the desires of Cameron but what the fuck was this all about if the UK is going to end up in the same boat but with no say?
posted by Talez at 8:47 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


It 100% wasn't "all about racism" or immigration.

Whilst I voted remain I do know a lot of people that voted leave. And none of them have ever given me cause to think them racist. Two of them are in marriages where one party is an immigrant. I'm sure a lot of people just didn't like all the foreign accents they kept hearing... but to say that was the start and end of it is to grossly miss the many other points. My wife is half-indian and was very conflicted about the vote. She wanted more movement of people and has desires to move to a hotter climate one day but felt the other issues were dragging her towards "Leave".

EVERYONE that I know who voted leave, and have shared their thinking, (so obvious bias's abound in my sample) had one of these two reasons in their list:

- They did not respect the EU as a law making body. They felt it was unaccountable, detached and not representative of their interests. They didn't trust it to stick to the new deal offered and expected everything to move towards more and bigger "EUness" in the future.

- If they were old enough to have voted in the last referendum they said they felt cheated. They voted to join a common market and got co-opted in to a political union over the following decades.
posted by samworm at 8:47 AM on June 27, 2016 [33 favorites]


but what the fuck was this all about

It was about (among other things) Boris using the referendum as a proxy vote of no confidence in Cameron so that he could become Prime Minister.
posted by kersplunk at 8:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


As a European who's lived in the UK for nearly a decade, this uncertainty is so so so stressful.
posted by toerinishuman at 8:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Calling everyone who voted to 'Leave' a racist seems just another way for progressives to dismiss the views of millions and millions of people - many of whom I am sure did not vote one way or the other solely out of hate.
posted by rosswald at 8:50 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


Can anyone point to prominent leftists or progressive saying things like, it was 100% about racism or that everyone who voted to Leave is a racist?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:53 AM on June 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


but what the fuck was this all about

David Cameron trying to shut up the right wing of his party.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:53 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Linked off The Hamptons isn't a defensible position video is Mark Blyth's Google talk on Austerity. I don't think for a second that the idiots daubing racist slogans on Polish shops were au fait with this possible argument for Leave but I know that if Farage and his racist goblins weren't on the Leave side it would certainly have been very persuasive for an accelerationist position.
posted by fullerine at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


There's quite enough crazy shit happening in the upper levels of government/industry/the EU to talk about, without re-hashing the racist/not-racist debate for another 3,000 comments.

Can we not?
posted by Happy Dave at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [36 favorites]


A++ would title post “the full english brexit” again.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [88 favorites]


Claiming that racism = hate seems just another way to pretend that racism is something that only happens to bad people, rather than something that everyone has to guard against.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [28 favorites]


The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.

YOUR HEAD OF STATE IS A HEREDITARY MONARCH. YOU HAVE A HOUSE OF LORDS.

ARE YOU AWARE THAT YOU HAVE A MONARCH AND A HOUSE OF LORDS.
posted by mhoye at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [224 favorites]


Crucially, they observed that – in strong contrast to the Scottish ‘Yes’ movement – Brexit was not fuelled by hope for a different future. On the contrary, many Leavers believed that withdrawing from the EU wouldn’t really change things one way or the other, but they still wanted to do it. I’ve long suspected that, on some unconscious level, things could be even stranger than this: the self-harm inflicted by Brexit could potentially be part of its appeal.

This reminds me of the bleak diagnosis that Mark Ames (The eXile) offered up a decade ago w/r/t right-wing populism here in the U.S.:

Rich, beautiful, coastal types are liberal precisely because their lives are so wonderful. They want to preserve their lives exactly as they are. If I were a rich movie star, I’d vote for peace and poverty relief. War and domestic insurrection are the greatest threats to their already-perfect lives–why mess with it? This rational fear of the peasantry is frequently misinterpreted as rich guilt, but that’s not the case. They just want to pay off all the have-nots to keep them from storming their manors and impaling them on stakes.

Republican elites don’t set off the spite glands in the same way, and it’s not only because of a sinister right-wing propaganda machine. Take a look at a photo of the late billionaire Sam Walton, a dessicated Calvinist in a baseball cap and business suit, and you’ll see why. If Republican billionaires enjoy their wealth, they sure as hell hide it well. As far as one can tell, Republican billionaires genuinely like working 18-hour days in offices, and attending dreary charity dinners. More importantly, it’s hard for us to imagine that these stuffy gray-haired plutocrats have interesting sex lives—nothing inspires murderous envy more than someone else’s great sex life, which is why a celebrity is so much more viscerally hateful than the richest, meanest plutocrat. These right-wing billionaires’ idea of having fun is a day on the golf green (a game as slow and frustrating as a day in the office) or attending conferences with other sleazy, cheerless Calvinist billionaires. If that’s what all their wealth got them, let ’em have it–so says the spite bloc. This explains why the Republican elite–the only true and all-powerful elite in America today–is not considered an “elitist” class in the spleens of the white male have-nots. Elitism as defined today is a synonym for “happy,” not “rich” or “powerful.” Happiness is the scarcest resource of all, not money. And the happy supply has been cornered by the beautiful, famous and wealthy coastal elite, the ones who never age, and who are just so damned concerned for the have-nots’ well-being. In that sense, you can see how the Republicans were able to successfully manipulate the meaning of “elitism” to suit their needs. They weren’t just selling dogshit to the credulous masses; they were selling pancreatic balm to the needy.

At the other end of the economic spectrum, non-millionaires who vote Republican know all-too-well that the country is not theirs. They are mere wage-slave fodder, so their only hope is to vote for someone who makes the very happiest people’s lives a little less happy. If I’m an obese 40-something white male living in Ohio or Nevada, locked into a permanent struggle with foreclosure, child support payments and diabetes, then I’m going to vote for the guy who delivers a big greasy portion of misery to the Sarandon-Robbins dining room table, then brags about it on FoxNews. Even if it means hurting myself in the process.

posted by non canadian guy at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [78 favorites]


Brexit loophole? MPs must still vote in order for Britain to leave the EU, top lawyers say

I think I heard on NPR this morning that Scotland, which voted solidly to Remain, may try to throw a spanner in the works by refusing parliamentary consent.
posted by Gelatin at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can anyone point to prominent leftists or progressive saying things like, it was 100% about racism or that everyone who voted to Leave is a racist?

Well, my entire Tumblr/Twitter feed is saying so, but they're mostly not (politically) prominent. And just to be clear, I disagree with that sentiment.
posted by aperturescientist at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016


Brexit: Gibraltar in talks with Scotland to stay in EU

How did I not think of this before: Denmark is in the EU but the Faroes and Greenland aren't. All that needs to happen is England and Wales withdraw form the EU, while the UK as a whole stays in. You just have customs and tarrifs at ports and you also need to police the land border, so you make a 21st century version of Hadrian's wall, possibly out of ice, at the England/Scotland border. Simple!
posted by kersplunk at 9:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I know it´s normally frowned upon but I will crosspost here from the end of the last mega thread
Geoffrey Robertson QC
How to stop Brexit: get your MP to vote it down.


This is silly. I'm not in favour of referendums and I think this was an poor decision (although I do sympathise with some of the pro-leave arguments regarding sovereignty) but at this point the die is cast. Having asked the public, MPs cannot ignore the answer.

The only thing that could possibly make this acceptable if if there is a snap election, convincingly won by a party explicitly campaigning on the basis that the UK will not leave the EU. Even then it would not be ideal. Simply ignoring the will of the public, however uninformed is politically impossible.
posted by atrazine at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.

Such as Nigel Farage, a European legislator since 1999? I wonder how many Leave voters voted in MEP elections?
posted by dhens at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Parliament's livestream is a circus featuring the masterful contortionist, David Cameron. Highly amusing.
posted by Talez at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


So the Full English Brexit does come with a plate of beans.

(I'll see myself out.)
posted by SansPoint at 9:04 AM on June 27, 2016 [104 favorites]


The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.

Laws made by the elected European Parliament?
posted by kersplunk at 9:05 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


Most of these articles confirm the idea that the Leavers were completely unprepared for a win. It's like the dog that chases cars but has no idea what to do upon actually catching one.
posted by chavenet at 9:06 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016


The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.

>Laws made by the elected European Parliament?


Well I guess it makes sense when you realise most UK MEPs were UKIP and thus did fuck all at the European parliament except submit expenses claims.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


I just saw this Twitter thread from an Irish person with a worry about Brexit that doesn't seem to have gotten much attention: it may cause new strife between Northern and Southern Ireland.

If you're not used to Twitter's terrible threading, just read Shocko's numbered posts and click the "show more" link whenever you see it.
posted by skymt at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.

The Kingdom Of England (that name prob not gonna fly though).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:09 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


There was the Middle Ages, although England owned chunks of France too, though that dwindled to just Calais (Bloody Mary lost it). I think at this point the French might be happy for us to have Calais.
posted by Grangousier at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


None of the Leave people seem to want to touch on the fact that making the EU more federal is a viable route to making it more accountable. Elected Commission members, fiscal union as well as monetary union.
posted by chimaera at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.

Yes, but a more inclusive name might be an idea this time round
posted by kersplunk at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Laws made by the elected European Parliament?
I had an actual argument with someone at work on referendum day who was saying that the European Parliament was unelected, despite the fact that we have European Parliament elections every five years. The amount of ignorance is unbelievable - people get all their information from the unreliable press, and aren't interested if it isn't about Coronation Street.
posted by winterhill at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:08 PM on June 27


Yeah, it was called "England." Wales was made a part of England for hundreds of years, unlike Scotland which retained an independent legal identity until the formation of Great Britain.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is silly. I'm not in favour of referendums and I think this was an poor decision (although I do sympathise with some of the pro-leave arguments regarding sovereignty) but at this point the die is cast.

We past Silly several signposts ago on this bumpy road. Since the referendum is not legally binding, but merely advisory, Parliament is under no obligation to treat it as a formal vote, especially not if the outcome is as catastrophic as it's shaping up to be. A vote against will almost certainly trigger a collapse of the present government and a general election, plus years of political ugliness as a result (to put it mildly). That's looking like a small price to pay.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Alternatively, didn't "Briton" used to only refer to the Celts? So let's have a New Briton and an Olde Britain.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:13 AM on June 27, 2016


The SNP is absolutely hammering Cameron on Scotland wanting to stay in.
posted by Talez at 9:14 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.

Yes, but a more inclusive name might be an idea this time round


Engales? Wangland?

...Wangland.
posted by a car full of lions at 9:16 AM on June 27, 2016 [88 favorites]


Given a Leave vote must be either racist or massively ignorant of actual economic and political facts, I'm not sure what's particularly ungenerous about assuming the former rather than the latter.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


We past Silly several signposts ago on this bumpy road. Since the referendum is not legally binding, but merely advisory, Parliament is under no obligation to treat it as a formal vote, especially not if the outcome is as catastrophic as it's shaping up to be.

Yeah, but 52% of referendum voters voted in favour of Leave. Parliament can ignore them, but they aren't going to go away — precisely why Cameron decided to hold this referendum in the first place.

Parliament can ignore or somehow "vote down" the result, but that just creates a massive opportunity for UKIP in the next election.

This political nightmare for the UK could have been avoided by raising the bar of "success" for the referendum (e.g., two-thirds majority needed to win etc).
posted by My Dad at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]




Maybe we should just keep the name United Kingdom, but throw some scare quotes in there.
When talking about the "United" Kingdom or the "U"K you have to do airquotes at the appropriate points.

Also we can put that line about having Rebellious Scots to crush back in the anthem.

(I say we, like I'm not getting my Scottish passport just as soon as they're independent)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016


I found this to be a brilliant analysis of that political fun and ours:

Brexit is only the latest proof of the insularity and failure of western establishment institutions

And apologies if it's already somewhere up in the amazing list that started the thread...
posted by emmet at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]




The european parliament has no legislative initiative, right?
posted by asra at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016


Whilst I personally think ignoring the result of the vote would be a disastrous precedent to set; if your fear is a war with the far-right then that is already coming. They are as emboldened as anyone has seen since the 70s and this will have to be fought whether we Brexit or not.
posted by fullerine at 9:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


interfluidity: Attributions of causality - "Like a lot of people, I think, I’m a bit dazed by the fact that apparently, really, the British public has voted to leave the EU. I’d prefer we lived in a world that was coming together rather than fraying apart. Other than that I’ll refrain from comment and just wish everybody the best."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:19 AM on June 27, 2016


The Kingdom Of England (that name prob not gonna fly though).

I've seen Poundland suggested.
posted by Artw at 9:20 AM on June 27, 2016 [42 favorites]


The responses and reactions after having gotten exactly what was claimed to be wanted have been ridiculous and surreal. Just pulling out the crisps and popcorn for the past couple of days watching it all play out.

Thanks for hte post, o mantot
posted by infini at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2016


EVERYONE that I know who voted leave, and have shared their thinking, (so obvious bias's abound in my sample) had one of these two reasons in their list:

Everyone is the hero is their own story. No one, anywhere, ever, admits that they're voting for something based largely on their own blind hatred of minorities. Every so often, though, we see the mask pulled off. In the UK, it's Brexit winning despite the fact that its backers apparently didn't even want it. In the US, it's Trump obliterating decades of conservative rhetoric insisting that it's all about the economy, and the systemic racism is just an unpleasant but necessary side effect. We'll see what happens in France over the next few months, but I'm sure it will be nicely dressed as economic concerns.
posted by Mayor West at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2016 [56 favorites]


Could UK be forced into quick EU exit?

TL,DR: Maybe, and probably if the remaining members have anything to say about it.

Article 50 says the remaining members must be 'notified' of an intention to leave, but makes no mention of how that notification is to occur. It has been assumed that it would be by a formal notice letter, however, simply discussing the Brexit vote with other members may be enough notification in their view.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2016


Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.

Sort of, due to a bloodthirsty conquest by Edward I of England. Who, incidentally, also took part in a bloody conquest of Scotland after that. Bloodthirsty guy. Incidentally, Edward I's conquest of Scotland only happened because he was initially invited to come and referee a complicated succession dispute, when nobody could agree on who the next Scottish monarch would be, a planned alliance with Norway didn't work out, and the power vacuum meant that somebody had to come and run the country in the meantime.

Not that I'm not suggesting Nicola Sturgeon gets together an army and marches down to London, obviously. Although with this week's news, would it even make the top headlines if she did?
posted by Catseye at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


massively ignorant of actual economic and political facts

They were seriously lied to by the media and the politicians.
posted by infini at 9:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


would it even make the top headlines if she did?
Well the BBC would run with Corbyn falling off his bike, but the rest of the media would probably cover it.
posted by fullerine at 9:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]




Article 50 says the remaining members must be 'notified' of an intention to leave, but makes no mention of how that notification is to occur.

I should think the referendum itself would constitute "notification." I'm pretty sure they've all heard by now. It was all over the papers for a couple days there.
posted by Naberius at 9:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


The impact of Brexit on the EU

Academia aside, this conversation has everyone concerned. Was chatting with the guards at the recent midsummer concert and they were worried EU would fall apart as everyone thought they could leave.
posted by infini at 9:26 AM on June 27, 2016


I didn't think I could get any more depressed about it after Friday, but the way that so many parties are using the whole shoddy outcome as a way of trying to drag Corbyn out of his role as opposition leader is heartbreaking. He is genuinely the only shred of hope I have left for the future of my home country and I will go to every rally for him that I need to in order to keep him going.
posted by greenish at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


This political nightmare for the UK could have been avoided by raising the bar of "success" for the referendum (e.g., two-thirds majority needed to win etc).

During the (successful) referendum on Montenegrin independence in 2006, the threshold was 55% of at least 50% eligible turnout.
posted by dhens at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


None of the Leave people seem to want to touch on the fact that making the EU more federal is a viable route to making it more accountable.

Many won't have a proper understanding of federalism. If they think about it at all, they would probably see it as something that Americans, Australians and Germans do, i.e. not British and therefore unworkable. As opposed to the marvelous Westminster machine we see in all its glory today. (See also: written vs unwritten constitutions.)

Yeah, but 52% of referendum voters voted in favour of Leave. Parliament can ignore them, but they aren't going to go away

There have been reports that as many as a million Leave voters were expressing buyer's remorse within a day or two of the result. Give it a few weeks and months of chaos and it could be many more. Even a million votes going the other way would have had the result as 52-48 Remain. I'm sure these sorts of calculations are being considered by MPs desperate to backtrack.
posted by rory at 9:29 AM on June 27, 2016




  simply discussing the Brexit vote with other members may be enough notification in their view

Jack of Kent (main site down, David Green's FB linked) noted that an EU spokesman said" "The notification of Article 50 is a formal act and has to be done by the British government to the European Council …"

Formal notice at this level would have to be written by someone authorized in the UK government, and acknowledged as received by the EU. "I heard you said ..." isn't enough.
posted by scruss at 9:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


The truly awful thing about Brexit is that it's the merest beginning.

The white majority's response to a relatively small number of migrants of color has torn Britain apart, yet when and if Global Warming really kicks in, that trickle will swell to a vast and overwhelming cataract because entire countries nearer the Equator are going to become uninhabitable or much less habitable, and millions upon millions of people living there will either die in place, in transit, or they will end up in currently mainly white countries of the higher latitudes -- countries which will have an indisputable moral obligation to let them in because those countries are primarily (and knowingly) responsible for Global Warming.
posted by jamjam at 9:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [56 favorites]


All that needs to happen is for the EU (Hollande and Merkel, Basically) to sit on their hands and completely refuse any pre-negotiation with the UK until article 50 is formally invoked. The uncertainty and anxiety that such a position will engender in the financial industry (the almighty City) will make relocation to the Eurozone pretty much the only option for the largest players. That in turn will mean that the stricter rules under which the Continental banks are governed will also be applied to newcomers.

Wikipedia: The financial services industry of the United Kingdom contributed a gross value of £86,145 million to the UK economy in 2004.[1] The industry employed around 1.2 million people in the third quarter of 2012 (around 4% of the British workforce).

The estimated amount of total taxes paid by the Financial Services Sector in the year to 31 March 2012 is £63bn, 11.6% of the total UK government tax receipts.


So, basically, a fair major portion of that 86 Billion is going away anyways, as are maybe 2-3% of Britain's jobs. And probably 10% of the UK's future tax revenue will now be in Paris' or Frankfurt's pocket instead.

And this is all likely to happen without the need for Article 50 being invoked.
posted by Chrischris at 9:39 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Has Boris been playing cricket all weekend? He's missing from Parliament
posted by infini at 9:41 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


As is Gove.
posted by Catseye at 9:42 AM on June 27, 2016



The truly awful thing about Brexit is that it's the merest beginning.

The white majority's response to a relatively small number of migrants of color has torn Britain apart, yet when and if Global Warming really kicks in, that trickle will swell to a vast and overwhelming cataract because entire countries nearer the Equator are going to become uninhabitable or much less habitable, and millions upon millions of people living there will either die in place, in transit, or they will end up in currently mainly white countries of the higher latitudes -- countries which will have an indisputable moral obligation to let them in because those countries are primarily (and knowingly) responsible for Global Warming.


Quite.

Given that the most visible ethnic prejudice emerging from the UK has been against the Polish, I find this whistled comment egregious.
posted by infini at 9:42 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


John Oliver is in fine comic and satiric form on the Brexit fallout in last night's Last Week Tonight. Sorry, that's a bit of an understatement, he's on fire. (e.g. addressing his American audience: “You might think, ‘Well that is not going to happen to us in America. We’re not going to listen to some ridiculously haired buffoon, peddling lies and nativism in the hopes of riding a protest vote into power.’ Well let Britain tell you, it can happen, and when it does, there are no fucking do-overs.”)

Besides the obvious dire current situation, he might still be a bit cheesed off that his previous week's sketch going into vote - which hilariously demolished the Leave campaign's lies - was delayed from being broadcast in the UK by Sky-TV.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


if your fear is a war with the far-right then that is already coming.

Just ask the family of Jo Cox about that war. Funny how the people defending Brexit are at pains to pretend she never existed, while railing about unaccountable bureaucrats.

That's why I think the Scottish MPs should be careful when moving either to veto the process or leave the UK. The "Make England Great Again" people have seen that they can engage in assassination with no repercussions; there's little to discourage them from doing it again.
posted by happyroach at 9:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]




All that needs to happen is for the EU (Hollande and Merkel, Basically) to sit on their hands and completely refuse any pre-negotiation with the UK until article 50 is formally invoked. The uncertainty and anxiety that such a position will engender in the financial industry (the almighty City) will make relocation to the Eurozone pretty much the only option for the largest players.

Its already happening.

FTSE 100 surrenders £85bn in two days

The EU Plans to Move Its Bank Regulator out of London After Brexit Vote
posted by infini at 9:51 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Has Boris been playing cricket all weekend? He's missing from Parliament

Everything about this dude's behavior since the vote seems like a guy whose wife just called to say she met his mistress and they had a lovely tea, the kids found out he spent their college savings on a bender in Atlantic City, and a couple of guys whose middle names are "The" keep looking for him so they can have a discussion about his debts and/or kneecaps.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [78 favorites]


YOUR HEAD OF STATE IS A HEREDITARY MONARCH. YOU HAVE A HOUSE OF LORDS.

There's a bit more to it than that.

The lack of democracy and particularly accountability within the EU is not an accidental defect, it is a structural feature. Britain's parliament is not perfect, but we did recently experience enough national debate around it to force a reversal of the recent massive cuts that were due to be made to disabled persons' benefits. One day there was simply no alternative, the sums had been done, the cuts had to be made. Then they didn't. You never get this kind of thing happening with the EU's decision making over for example the recent refugee situation (which caused Medicin Sans Frontieres to refuse any further money from the EU).
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I've seen Poundland suggested.

(Note to non-UK readers: "Poundland" is a nationwide chain of discount variety stores, like the 99-cent shop or hyaku en shoppu.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:57 AM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


There is absolutely no way the City will allow for a long period of uncertainty.

The City absolutely positively has to retain access to the EU markets. It's an absolute precondition to their continued dominance in world Finance. Get cut of the EU markets and now the City absolutely fucked.

This is why HSBC is already making threats to move to the continent. It is a requirement for their business model staying out of the EU markets would give BNP Paribas and Deutschebank and other continental banks the ability to eat their business for lunch.

Since the economy of the UK is extremely dependent on the economic activity of the City and the City is dependent on access to the EU there is absolutely no leverage. No amount of national pride will keep the UK banks from jumping ship if the UK goes protectionist.

So if we accept that access to the single market is mandatory for any future state then we have to accept that free movement is a precondition. There is absolutely no indication that the EU is willing to give the UK EFTA without a reciprocal treaty of some sort. Switzerland has it's own bilateral deals but the most likely alternative is EEA and guess what the EEA mandates? Yep free movement.

So all the racists who want to send all the Poles back to Eastern Europe aren't going to be able to get their deportation desires met. They are going to be mad as fuck at the demagogues that lied to them. You can already see evidence of this with some leave advocates pointing to Boris's back pedaling as evidence that he'll sell them down the river in a heartbeat which of course is completely accurate.

As for the euroskeptics on the left? I don't know what to tell you. I understand that you guys dislike neoliberal bureaucrats in Brussels calling the shots but it seems like you've traded that for even sketchier Tory Bureaucrats in Westminster who are dying to push through all sorts of crap that would be impossible under the EU.

I guess that's good for sovereignity I guess and I respect the desire to die free rather than live in bondage but I think that viewpoint is typically hidden behind a lot of pretty obfuscations.
posted by vuron at 9:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [49 favorites]


Maybe all the #Brexit voters who voted to get out from under unaccountable bloodless neoliberal bureaucrats in Brussels without realizing that it was the unaccountable bloodless neoliberal bureaucrats in Whitehall who fucked them over are all just The Lion In Winter fans.

"When the fall is all there is, it matters. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


The correct thing to do would be for Parliament to hold a debate on the results and pass a resolution saying that they have considered the advice of the people, but decided that the narrowness of the results require that the status quo be maintained.
posted by humanfont at 10:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


How much of that is structural and how much of that is cultural though? If that's a meaningful distinction. I mean, I'm kind of an uninformed American here, but it sounds like people do vote for these MEPs. So what makes the European so drastically different from the British parliament that it is undemocratic? Do they possess fewer powers? Or is there just not enough communication and shared citizen involvement between European countries for grassroots opposition to build against things that are more popular among the economic elite than the populace at large? Or is it a case where people only see the laws have downsides for them, and don't really notice the laws that have upsides for them and downsides for other people?
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Apparently the sure-fire way to make Prime Minister's Question Time less angry and adversarial is to have the Prime Minister promise to resign
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]




The only silver lining I can see about Brexit and Trump is the possibility that the hard right will be discredited in the electorates of the English-speaking world for a generation. However, the cost is far too high, and that outcome is far from guaranteed.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


It seems like Cameron's answer to anything is "that would be a decision for the next Prime Minister."

It's a bit like that time the Bishops were coming and Father Ted had to get Father Jack to memorize a couple stock phrases that apply to every possible question.
posted by zachlipton at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


They did not respect the EU as a law making body. They felt it was unaccountable, detached and not representative of their interests.

Were their interests worker rights and unions, climate change, decent environmental policy, human rights? Because by leaving the EU all these things are under threat.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


Vuron, I think the City is done, regardless of what happens in the future.

The entire structure of the UK banking establishment hinged on the ability for British banks to have access to the Eurozone WHILE not being not being subject to the stricter regulations that Eurozone banks operate under. That arrangement, whatever the political outcome, is dead. When Cameron pulled the trigger on the referendum, he put a bullet right through the City as well. Even if we get to a "just kidding, heh heh heh" state of affairs and the UK somehow, improbably, stays, you can rest assured that the French and German banks will absolutely not allow the status quo to remain in place. The referendum put paid to the underlying idea that, despite demands for special treatment, the British were fundamentally committed to the EU project. With that assumption of good faith and comity now gone, there remains absolutely no reason why the Eurozone financial sector should allow the City to enjoy its privileged status.
posted by Chrischris at 10:16 AM on June 27, 2016 [35 favorites]


Or is there just not enough communication and shared citizen involvement between European countries for grassroots opposition to build against things that are more popular among the economic elite than the populace at large?

“The EU must now take a long, hard look at itself and consider a fundamental change of its policies in favour of social justice. If it seeks to continue as if nothing has happened, it will disintegrate.”
posted by infini at 10:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm kind of an uninformed American here, but it sounds like people do vote for these MEPs.

The European Parliament isn't in charge, in the way, for example, that the Houses of Parliament have the final say in the UK.

Basically there are 4 main European institutions. The Commission is the civil service, but are pretty powerful as these things go, can suggest new legislation, amongst other things. Its them that are seen as having too much power. The Member States do each get a commissioner, who runs a dept at the EC, but this is appointed (albeit by elected governments) not elected. This is who is being got at when people moan about the whole shebang being technocratic and undemocratic.

The Parliament is elected, it can influence legislation in various ways but doesn't get the final say.

The European court rules on any disagreement, is where countries get taken to court for not meeting policy, not all that pertinent here. Not the same as the International Court it should be noted.

The body that does have the final say is the European Council. This is pretty democratic in that each MS national leader gets a seat (or sends a minister for less important stuff), they can veto stuff either individually or in blocs (but generally for it to require a bloc veto the MS have to have agreed in some prior legislation that an individual veto no longer applies). This is pretty democratic since all the MS are democratic and each MS has to have to have voluntarily agreed to buy into the system as a whole to be there but this is generally ignored.

This has been your very quick and dirty intro to European Union political structure.
posted by biffa at 10:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [63 favorites]


ould be a disastrous precedent to set; if your fear is a war with the far-right then that is already coming. They are as emboldened as anyone has seen since the 70s and this will have to be fought whether we Brexit or not.

I'd be more worried about losing it than having to fight it. The consequences of leaving are bad. The consequences of ignoring the will of the people are also bad. It's a case of giving the far right what they wanted and having everyone come to see that it's terrible, or denying it to them and having them come to power and potentially taking it anyway.

Same with the bankers, really. Boris' choices are protect the bankers and the economy, keep the immigrants, and have half the population lose their minds, or fuck the bankers and the economy, fuck the immigrants, and keep his supporters on side. He's a craven careerist who only got where he is today by toadying up to the far right. Oh, to be an estate agent in Frankfurt, theirs will soon be the only smiling faces on the continent.
posted by Diablevert at 10:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


No member of the European Commission is elected.

The President of the Commission is elected by the European Parliament, the members of which are elected. The President then goes on to advise (the elected representatives of) member states on who they wish to select as commissioners. The Commission doesn't appear out of thin air.

The problem isn't that they're unelected, it's that they're mostly elected by people who aren't British. Just like how term limits are most popular for everyone else's representatives.
posted by Etrigan at 10:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


Josh Marshall: "This then is the big picture: a period of great transformation in which a declining but very large segment of the population feels it is losing critically important things to which it is entitled and does not want to lose and, in response, is throwing up an escalating range of tactics and obstacles to bring the change to a halt."
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:20 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


You know what.

The US has a federal system, I get to vote for a Representative and a couple of Senators and a President.

I don't get to select the bureaucrats that form the vast majority of the executive branch. We simply don't get to vote on them directly. There is some indirect role for advise and consent for the Secretaries in charge of the various agencies and some of their senior deputies but the vast majority of federal bureaucrats are not decided directly by the voters.

And the reality is that's a good thing. Otherwise you get stuff like the spoils system where all of the senior positions in an agency are more or less political cronies of the ruling party. We realized that this was a bad model during the progressive era and there has been roughly 90 or so years where bureaucracies have been more or less dominated by a professional class that implement the decisions of the elected officials.

In the modern federal state these types of bureaucrats are absolutely essential as they are the only ones that have the institutional knowledge necessary to keep the system running. This is reflected in all the un-elected bureaucrats that carry out the will of the MPs in Whitehall as well.

I'm just kind of surprised that there is so much concern about faceless EU bureaucrats when they are necessary to the smooth function of virtually every modern government. Can bureaucracies subvert the will of the electorate? Yep. Can they act in selfish, self perpetuating ways? Yep. Are they an absolutely requirement for the smooth function of a government? Yep.

So the solution to the problems of the EU bureaucracy are to enact reforms on the EU bureaucracies. However the UK seems content to send the worst sorts of crooks in the form of the UKIPs to the European Parliament. These are people that openly brag that they have no intention of actually being in session.

So you wonder why the interests of the UK aren't being met. Physician heal thyself.
posted by vuron at 10:22 AM on June 27, 2016 [44 favorites]


I was relieved to read in the latest Paul Mason - The global order is dying. But it’s an illusion to think Britain can survive without the EU that:
The impact has been immediate. Almost unnoticed amid the post-Brexit hysteria, French president François Hollande announced his intention to veto TTIP, the free-trade treaty between the EU and the US. For clarity, that means it is dead.
posted by Grangousier at 10:22 AM on June 27, 2016 [30 favorites]


The Commissioners are also approved by the Parliament (though as a group, not individually). It's not a system that's immediately responsive to the will of the voters, but calling it "undemocratic" is eliding some significant elements.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


You never get this kind of thing happening with the EU's decision making over for example the recent refugee situation

Picture time!

Here's a photo of from the council meeting that made that decision. You may recognize the guy to the left. His colleagues from other EU countries were there too.

Here's a graph over how many refugees per capita the different European countries took in last year, based on decisions by local politicians.

I'm not entirely sure these two pictures support the idea that EU is bad because it's run by unelected Brusselaars, or that your local UK parliament is good.
posted by effbot at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


All that needs to happen is for the EU (Hollande and Merkel, Basically) to sit on their hands and completely refuse any pre-negotiation with the UK until article 50 is formally invoke

It looks like that's the plan. While the UK government has done nothing (and the two most prominent government members who backed Leave did not even bother to turn up to debate today), there is now a drafted EU motion for a resolution about the referendum result. It's not pretty.
posted by AFII at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


The people have spoken. Nobody is sure what they are saying. Including the people who voted.
posted by Postroad at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


Indeed. The people have spoken. Or, at least, they've made mouth noises. Close enough.
posted by Grangousier at 10:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


How delicious would it be if Scotland somehow succeeds in retaining EU membership and London's financial institutions pack up and move to Edinburgh?
posted by rocket88 at 10:29 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


So when is the no-confidence vote coming in the Commons? Surely there's one coming, right?
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:29 AM on June 27, 2016


Is a global recession on the horizon? It sure seems like it right now.
posted by tommasz at 10:31 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh man, this Regrexiter takes the cake: Former Sun editor Kelvin Mackenzie reveals he regrets voting for Brexit.
posted by rory at 10:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


In Britain, the End of the Establishment in which Pankaj Mishra skewers Eton for old glory and empire.
posted by infini at 10:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


so I'm thinking about the pre-vote conspiracy theories about MI5 erasing the ballots of leave voters in order to ensure the victory of remain (the #usepens nutters and so forth), and I'm realizing that the UK has tripped across a methodology for determining whether or not democratic elections have been completely subverted by the nation's elites. It goes something like this:

METHOD FOR TESTING THE EFFICACY OF DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS:
  1. Come up with an idea that sounds reasonable to the relatively uninformed public, but that no oligarch/member of the elite would ever support. To catch both corrupt oligarchs who rule in their own interests and also honest insiders who simply want the best for the electorate as a whole, this idea would have to be something that corrupt elites wouldn't support because it would mortally damage their own positions, and also something that relatively honest elites would never support, because it would mortally damage the prospects of the entire country.
  2. Arrange for a referendum on that idea.
If the referendum comes out in favor of the idea that's terrible for everyone, you know that your electoral systems aren't entirely compromised by elite schemers — if it were, the elite schemers would have found a way to stop it.

Congratulations, UK voters! You now know that your electoral system is relatively uncompromised!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [81 favorites]


I'm not entirely sure these two pictures support the idea that EU is bad because it's run by unelected Brusselaars, or that your local UK parliament is good.

It's not binary, but the classic Tony Benn case against the EU is that the lack of accountability is built into its workings to a degree that makes it impossible to reform without its break up.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The theory that most of the (cosmopolitan, assuredly middle-class) left folks I know are clinging to at the moment goes a little like this. It's in two parts:

- The UK is currently the biggest brake on the EU's ability to pass stringent regulation in the financial sector, regarding labor rights, human rights, the environment, etc. An EU without a UK is much more likely to pass legislation with teeth...
- ...which the UK will nevertheless be compelled to accept as the price of access to the single market. [ETA:] There will be no bending on this principle from the EU side of the table, our encourager les autres.

For all that it sounds like wishful thinking, and it does, it is a plausible and consistent construction of the facts as they exist at this moment.

I apologize if someone's already articulated this theory here, either in this or the other megathread; I don't recall having seen it laid out explicitly.
posted by adamgreenfield at 10:37 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


Honestly I would assume that most of the City will eventually move to NYC or Zurich in some form or another.

Like chrischris said the City depended a lot on being in this weird gray zone of having access to the EU while also being able to avoid financial regulations that BNP and DB have to deal with.

Those Banks that are more or less built around maintaining some level of secrecy yet also having access to the EU might look to take advantage of the Swiss relationship and those that are more geared towards global markets will probably jump into the snake pit that is Wall Street.

I doubt that an independent Scotland would be able to maintain the UK special financial rules and even then I doubt that Edinburgh has access to the global infrastructure necessary to become central to the Eurozone financial structure. Modern finance works on milisecond tolerances and being too far from the center of action basically eliminates your ability to compete.
posted by vuron at 10:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Vote Leave campaign has scrubbed its homepage of links to its speeches and editorials "In the wake of the EU referendum, the Vote Leave campaign has wiped its homepage...... The only active links are to the campaign's Privacy Policy and contact details."

Why, it's almost as if they don't want people to realize their promises were, shall we say, misleading?
posted by pjsky at 10:41 AM on June 27, 2016 [63 favorites]


Did this comment from the Guardian comments section get posted before (link is to a WashPost article.)

It basically argues that Boris got punked by Cameron, and has been absent because he realizes he's in an impossible position. By resigning rather than triggering Article 50, Cameron is placing it on the shoulders of the next PM. In the mean time, people are thinking a lot more about what it really means, and the costs associated with it. So if the next PM is Boris, he's either got to do this unpopular thing that he says he supports, and suffer the substantial consequences, or not do it, and suffer the consequences of that. It's a persuasive argument about why he is so subdued.
posted by OmieWise at 10:44 AM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


Thank you for this amazing post.

The very first link was really helpful to me! I feel like I have been reading the 201 about Brexit before understanding the 101. This really clarified.
posted by latkes at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Honestly I would assume that most of the City will eventually move to NYC or Zurich in some form or another.

Well, NYC is no good because it's in the wrong time zone.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Per the Wired link above, the Leave Youtube channel. So far, the vids are still up.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The European Commission [...] propose and write the laws, implement decisions and laws, and run the European institutions. The commission employs roughly 30,000 people. No member of the European Commission is elected.

I guess the idiot who wrote that forgot to inform the commission, because they sure don't know they're running the show themselves.

And they're all elected -- the parliament elects the president, and the president and the council then nominates the rest of the members (one from each country, who suggests candidates). They are then approved by the parliament. This is not that different from how the UK government is put together.
posted by effbot at 10:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Re the "simple cartoon" explanation I surmise that's what happens to simple cartoons when they're made compliant with EU regulations.
posted by zippy at 10:50 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Did this comment from the Guardian comments section get posted before (link is to a WashPost article.)

Yes, it's linked at least three times in the previous thread, and quoted in a few more comments :-)
posted by effbot at 10:51 AM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


It must be the EU who edited "I'm not your friend, buddy!" out of the cartoon.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:51 AM on June 27, 2016


Passing progressive reforms through the EU sans the UK does seem much more likely.

And assuming that EEA and EFTA access are mandatory for any future state agreement it seems like there are possibly some silver linings for the left.

1)Civil Rights advancements because EEA members are obligated to pass laws in agreement with the EU in areas of social policy

2)Environmental improvements because EEA are obligated to meet certain environmental policies

3)Corporate reform because of EEA obligation to adhere to EU consumer protection and corporate rules.

4)Maintainance of free movement provisions - hahaha UKIP assholes

All in return for having absolutely no say on what the EU wants to pass.

But I guess having complete control over agricultural and fishing policies is worthwhile because it's apparently still the 19th century for some Leavers.

Oh and you know the unfortunate side effects like nuking a large percentage of the wealth of people in the UK and the inevitable violence directed at immigrants.

But I guess that's a cool way of sticking it to those Brussels Bureaucrats. Why they seem to be trembling just waiting to surrender to British demands. Wait what they are already pushing for the UK to engage in a quick exit? I guess that worked out well.
posted by vuron at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


- The UK is currently the biggest brake on the EU's ability to pass stringent regulation in the financial sector, regarding labor rights, human rights, the environment, etc. An EU without a UK is much more likely to pass legislation with teeth...
- ...which the UK will nevertheless be compelled to accept as the price of access to the single market.


So this theory basically says:
- Elected UK leaders are the biggest brake on the EU's ability to accomplish certain things that would help people
- Instead of getting rid of those leaders and replacing them with better ones, let's get rid of the EU
- Let's not notice that the UK will still have the same leaders who still won't give a darn about workers, etc..., except now the EU won't be there to act as any kind of a brake on them

I can see why you find this strategy wishful thinking.
posted by zachlipton at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Well, NYC is no good because it's in the wrong time zone.

From a strictly British perspective, I suspect all alternatives are in the wrong time zone :-)
posted by effbot at 10:57 AM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes, it's linked at least three times in the previous thread, and quoted in a few more comments :-)

I figured that was likely, but damned if I was going to wade through that behemoth to find out. ;)
posted by OmieWise at 10:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Congratulations, UK voters! You now know that your electoral system is relatively uncompromised!

That is very likely to be the case. But even if the electoral system were heavily compromised, and the government had the ability to alter the outcome of the referendum through electoral fraud, two factors decreased the probability of its doing so. Firstly, the government believed that the likelihood of the voters electing to leave the EU was relatively small, based on evidence supplied by opinion polls and currency markets (which, admittedly, may have priced in the probability of the government altering the outcome of the referendum). Secondly, the government may have believed that even if the voters elected to leave the EU, such an outcome could nonetheless be averted (e.g., by holding a second referendum or calling a snap election in which pro-EU parties would emerge victorious). Since the risks of committing electoral fraud are quite high, these factors may have sufficed to dissuade the government from undertaking such action.
posted by Abelian Grape at 10:59 AM on June 27, 2016


From a strictly British perspective, I suspect all alternatives are in the wrong time zone :-)

Oi! What latitude!?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:00 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


But I guess having complete control over agricultural and fishing policies is worthwhile because it's apparently still the 19th century for some Leavers.

Speaking of which the British beef industry is pretty fucked. They won't receive the Single Farm Payment which was basically the only thing keeping them on life support.
posted by Talez at 11:01 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can see why you find this strategy wishful thinking.

Ah, but I didn't say it was a strategy. I'd think of it, instead, as a desperate, rearguard attempt to wrest some kind of socially progressive outcome from the jaws of defeat.

Bear in mind that I have deep, deep sympathies with the left-exit position, but can't imagine acting on them under circumstances that would embolden the nativist right.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Downloaded all the Vote Leave videos from YouTube - we can make sure they don't get disappeared too. MeMail if you want the archive.
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 11:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


The Gruaniad's Business Live gets scarier by the moment
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:06 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Wow, all the way down to AA. That's a pretty stiff rebuke. That'll be felt.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


(And when I say "felt," I mean "experienced in ways that will even impact Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson in his Islington home.")
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:09 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Talez: I went from Cornwall to London and back last week and saw lots of Vote Leave posters on farmland bordering the rail track. My initial expectation was that this was pretty straightforward nationalist tory stuff but thinking about it I was pretty surprised. Getting out of the CAP? That's got to be pretty damn risky if you are a farmer, and there will be lots of other pots of cash that might also get cut off. I was at the European parliament a few months ago and some guy gave us a presentation about how agriculture represents something like 47% of the EU budget. Maybe some farmers may feel pretty confident that they will be in line ahead of the NHS for that 350M a week. Though I coming to think of it as the 350M loaves and fishes since apparently it will be enough to feed everyone.
posted by biffa at 11:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


That two notch demolishing of the UK credit rating. Holy fucking shit.
posted by Talez at 11:12 AM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


The Gruaniad's Business Live gets scarier by the moment

In the immortal words of Sir Richard Mottram:
"We're all fucked. I'm fucked. You're fucked. The whole department is fucked. It's the biggest cock-up ever. We're all completely fucked."
posted by effbot at 11:13 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]




On the point about racist abuse, I see people trying to claim that these are rare, isolated incidents that are just getting publicity now because of the Brexit vote.

I am a barrister based in Birmingham. I know, either as colleagues, or well enough to chat to if I see them at court or in the street, perhaps 200 other local lawyers. In the last 8 days, of those 200:

- one has had a very close friend murdered, said friend being Jo Cox MP, active Remain campaigner.

- one has had his father physically assaulted whilst campaigning for Remain.

- one, today, was assumed to be European whilst out shopping and told "we've voted for you to go home".

This is not rare. These are not isolated incidents. As someone has observed, whilst nowhere near 52% of the UK are anti-immigrant racists, the substantial minority who are have been emboldened to believe that 52% of the UK agrees with them, and are acting accordingly.
posted by Major Clanger at 11:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [106 favorites]


Yes, talk about a rebuke - S&P was expected to downgrade the UK's credit rating from AAA, but to skip AA+ and lower it to AA, with a negative outlook on top of that, is brutal.

Behind the business-like tones of their press release is an unmistakable kiss-off: "In our opinion, this outcome is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, stable, and effective policy framework in the U.K. We have reassessed our view of the U.K.'s institutional assessment and now no longer consider it a strength in our assessment of the rating." And they go on: "The negative outlook reflects the risk to economic prospects, fiscal and external performance, and the role of sterling as a reserve currency, as well as risks to the constitutional and economic integrity of the U.K. if there is another referendum on Scottish independence."

They didn't even bother to wait until Friday to issue this, the way they did with the European debt crisis.
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


It is a weird feature of our flaming crap-sack present that I now look to Dr. Chuck Tingle to make me laugh about horrible horrible situations. Luckily, between his new book Pounded by the Pound, the best review of it ever, and most importantly, J.K. Rowling tweeting about both approvingly(!!!), all true buckaroos can rejoice.
posted by sgranade at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


The EU wants what's best for THE EU.

Quite a lot is packed into that phrase though.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016


I'm becoming increasingly concerned/convinced that there will be a history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.
posted by VTX at 11:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


On the point about racist abuse, I see people trying to claim that these are rare, isolated incidents that are just getting publicity now because of the Brexit vote.
A Facebook group set up to document the rise in racism in the UK following the Brexit vote says it is “already seeing a stark increase in racist harassment and aggression.”

“It seems that the referendum has validated and vindicated racist views; racist behaviour is now shameless in its expression. This cannot go unchallenged,” the organizers wrote.

“We must not stand by and tolerate the normalisation and mainstreaming of racism. Just because we’ve voted to leave the European Union DOES NOT mean there is a democratic mandate for racist harassment, aggression, intimidation or hate speech.”
via
posted by infini at 11:21 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


For greater clarity, I have inserted [less] where applicable:
“In our opinion, this outcome is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, [less] stable, and [less] effective policy framework in the U.K. We have reassessed our view of the U.K.’s institutional assessment and now no longer consider it a strength in our assessment of the rating.”
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2016


My initial expectation was that this was pretty straightforward nationalist tory stuff but thinking about it I was pretty surprised. Getting out of the CAP? That's got to be pretty damn risky if you are a farmer, and there will be lots of other pots of cash that might also get cut off.

It's hard to know. 55% of the farming income in the UK comes from CAP. Any farmer who votes Leave should be damn sure they know what they're doing to try and keep receiving that level of money from Whitehall. Without it most small farms will probably go broke.
posted by Talez at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2016


history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.

Funny, I was thinking just the opposite. If this isn't a wake up call, then we deserve it. As a planet.
posted by infini at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I saw a funny tweet the other day, gist was "That feeling you get when you realise the year you're living in is going to be the title of an awful lot of history books twenty years from now."
posted by Diablevert at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [46 favorites]


I'm becoming increasingly concerned/convinced that there will be a history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.

Wherein Britain loses, defeated by itself.
posted by No Robots at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm becoming increasingly concerned/convinced that there will be a history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.

Russia hasn't even invaded anything yet.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016


Wherein Britain loses, defeated by itself.

Britain invades the EU to force the EU to trade with Britain.

World War 3: This time the Brits are the bad guys!
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2016


Russia hasn't even invaded anything yet.

*Crimea outside the window, jumping and waving its arms*
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [71 favorites]




Delay Brexit negotiations so people can go on holiday first, Vote Leave chief Matthew Elliot says

Oh good lord. I do hope the EU just boots these folks while they are on holiday.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


This may have been posted in the other thread (I didn't see it), but I found this to be a very good article on Brexit, why it happened, and how:

http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/

One part I found extra interesting:
Amongst people who have utterly given up on the future, political movements don’t need to promise any desirable and realistic change. If anything, they are more comforting and trustworthy if predicated on the notion that the future is beyond rescue, for that chimes more closely with people’s private experiences.
posted by cell divide at 11:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Reverse Dunkirk?
posted by rosswald at 11:30 AM on June 27, 2016


Wonka_yougetnothing_youlose.gif
posted by The Whelk at 11:31 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


I saw a funny tweet the other day, gist was "That feeling you get when you realise the year you're living in is going to be the title of an awful lot of history books twenty years from now."

1974 Redux
posted by My Dad at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Greenwald weighs in
posted by infini at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh good lord. I do hope the EU just boots these folks while they are on holiday.

Well, this won't happen because people aren't going away, well annedotally, according to a friend on mine in France, lots of campsites are being left empty because people have cancelled their trips. She just lost 3 months work.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Is there a way that you guys can lock the doors behind them when they go down to sunny Majorca for holidays?

I mean what are the chances they will carry their passports when they leave and can customs agents actually be sure that they are who they say they are.

They could actually be Poles with posh accents.
posted by vuron at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


From the Centre for European Reform page linked somewhere upthread - How Leave outgunned Remain.
The BBC’s performance during the referendum campaign was lamentable. Of course it was right to give equal prominence and time to the two sides. But it failed to fulfil its legal obligation to inform and to educate. When senior journalists interviewed Leave campaigners, who said things that were untrue, the comments often went unchallenged. Why was this? Having spoken to many BBC journalists – some of whom acknowledge there was a serious problem – I conclude there were at least two reasons.

First, a lot of well-known BBC presenters and interviewers know very little about the EU. So when, for example, a Leaver said (as they often did) that the ‘five presidents’ report’ showed that a super-state was under construction, with a European army, and that Britain would have to join, the interviewer let it pass. Few BBC journalists knew that this infamous report only concerned the eurozone, did not mention an EU army, did not apply to Britain and had been effectively vetoed by Germany.

On June 21st the BBC broadcast a televised debate from Wembley Arena. Between each section of the debate, a voiceover sought to explain the factual background to the next subject for discussion. One of these voices stated that “EU leaders are discussing the creation of a European army”, which is completely untrue. When I set up the CER, 18 years ago, BBC journalists were much better briefed on EU matters than they are today. There are, of course, honourable exceptions who are well-informed, and many of them regret that the BBC made only half-hearted efforts to educate staff before the campaign began.

The second point is that some interviewers were quite well-informed, but still held back from correcting Leavers when they made untrue statements. As an institution, the BBC was terrified of being thought of as pro-EU – partly because of the sheer volume of complaints it receives from hard-line Outers. So the BBC bent over backwards not to behave in ways that could be construed as biased against Leave. One of the BBC’s most senior journalists confessed to me, a few days before the referendum: “If we give a Leaver a hard time, we know that the Mail or the Sun may pick on us and that that is bad for our careers. But if we are tough on Remainers it might upset the Guardian and that doesn’t matter at all. This affects the way some colleagues handle interviews.”

posted by adamvasco at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2016 [32 favorites]


Sounds like Greenwald and I are on nearly exactly the same page.

“Most of the media … failed to see this coming. … The alienation of the people charged with documenting the national mood from the people who actually define it is one of the ruptures that has led to this moment.” Gary Younge similarly denounced “a section of the London-based commentariat [that] anthropologized the British working class as though they were a lesser evolved breed from distant parts, all too often portraying them as bigots who did not know what was good for them.” Ian Jack’s article was headlined “In this Brexit vote, the poor turned on an elite who ignored them,” and he described how “gradually the sight of empty towns and shuttered shops became normalized or forgotten.”

This is the big failure in the US as well. Our media has dropped the ball entirely.

Of course, this is nothing new. It recalls the Rodney King riots in LA in the 80's. The newscasters all white and bronzed, perfect coifs, expensive suits, not even being able to begin to parse what was going on on the ground because it was so outside of the world they lived in.

See Dunbar's Number. If you are massively rich and only ever meet or spend time with other rich people, you literally have no idea whatsoever what the other 99% live like. (Although to be fair, the same works in reverse.)

How can you ostensibly represent someone you don't even begin to understand?

As the Brexit vote proves, you can't.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Delay Brexit negotiations so people can go on holiday first, Vote Leave chief Matthew Elliot says

Hahaha. Christ. I hear Aberdeen is lovely this time of year. You may even be able to negotiate some exclusive offers, unavailable to anybody else!
posted by Chrischris at 11:42 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


As always Greenwald loves to shovel out blame to whatever bugaboos he's angry at. Basically he's scolding liberals for scolding the working class poor.

Nevermind that rage for the sake of rage is completely counterproductive. Never mind that Leave is enabling all sorts of racially motivated violence. Nevermind that Leave supporters explicitly denied the likely negative consequences. Nevermind that conditions for the working poor in the UK outside of the EU are likely to be much worse than conditions within.

Nope it's all the fault of the elites. Which interestingly enough mirrors the same rhetoric coming from the nationalistic populists on the right. I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander ehh?

Funny how he really doesn't offer any sort of tangible solutions to the current mess and how to improve the lives of average Britons. It's just backwards facing problem focused scolding rather than advocating for positive change.
posted by vuron at 11:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Brexit: why Britain left the EU, explained with a simple cartoon

What the fuck. What the fuck was that. That was neither simple nor was it a cartoon. That was an article with shitty pseudo-Minecraft pictures sprinkled throughout. What the fuck, Alvin Chang. Alvin Chang, you huge piece of shit, hire a fucking cartoonist, you ass, you wastrel
posted by Greg Nog at 11:50 AM on June 27, 2016 [44 favorites]


I'm starting to think the Queen should dissolve parliament and force a new general election. I am only semi-joking.
posted by crocomancer at 11:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm starting to think the Queen should dissolve parliament and force a new general election. I am only semi-joking.

Be careful what you ask for. Labour is utterly imploding as we speak.
posted by zachlipton at 11:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Labour Party could not just fucking once sit back and capitalise and say "see where the Tories have got us all!" No, straight to the back-stabbing.
posted by billiebee at 11:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


That credit rating downgrade - I didn't fully appreciate the repercussions, but it's going to be a killer for British business:

A company can’t have a higher credit rating than its own country because sovereign states, and their central banks, are the lenders of last resort, in times of crisis.

So no corporation based in the UK can have a AAA or AA+ credit rating any longer? Whoa.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


Yeah, those oh so perfect elites that haven't done anything like blast media with fear-mongering about foreigners for decades, which certainly helps solidify that racist bullshit in the hearts of people who might just plain not know any better.

I mean, we couldn't step back and point the finger at well educated and intelligent people who are taking poor shmucks on a ride.

I mean, it's always the fault of the poor and uneducated when they get screwed by someone rich and educated, right? Right?

Give me a fucking break.

People don't feel like they can trust an increasingly insulated elite who will do damned everything to cover up their tracks about every little thing that might be slightly embarrassing. (I mean, these British fucks can't even root out fucking pedo MP's)

Does that mean the Brexit was the right solution? Hell no. Does it excuse any of the racist bullshit? Fuck no.

But understanding where that shit stems from is important to being able to create positive change.

The more the god damned elites hand wave things like income inequality away or a decades long war on terror that has done nothing but increase fear of foreigners, and act like everything is fine, just keep chugging along, we broke it but we can fix it, and the more we let them do that shit the further away we get from being able to make positive change.

People are angry, and the media has certainly helped them find a powerless scapegoat in immigrants.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


"In our opinion, this outcome is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, stable, and effective policy framework in the U.K.

The wording here reminds me of nothing so much as the bulletin issued by the NWS immediately prior to the landfall of Hurricane Katrina. I find this reassuring not in the slightest.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:00 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?
posted by dilaudid at 12:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


But there have been a ton of people that have been advocating passionately for Remain. That the EU has problems but it's easier to fix those problems from inside the system than outside the system. That if you genuinely care about fixing the problems of the working class Leave was the wrong choice.

But instead we have all sorts of pundits on the left crowing triumphantly about the triumph of democracy over the elites. As if there was some sort of moral good coming out of this mess. Yes the working class are probably going to get completely fucked from Exit but at least it shows the elites that we can't be messed with and are willing to do all sorts of irrational things against our own interest because we are hopping mad.

The triumph of democracy is that there is a democratic vote. It would've been just as much of a triumph of democracy for Britons to back away from the ledge and say "You know the EU sucks but maybe we can work to change it".

But that isn't the lesson being learned. What is being learned is that if the elites use race-baiting strategies they can divide the working class and get them to fuck each other over.

Solidarity is what the left should be looking for but the politics of division and othering are apparently good for page hits.
posted by vuron at 12:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]




Look, I'm no political genius, but this from the first link:

The vote doesn’t necessarily bind Britain to leaving the EU, but it likely will, because defying the will of the people would be politically bad.


makes me want to start chanting BOATY McBOATFACE! over and over. You want to talk "defying the will of the people" THE PEOPLE SPOKE AND NO ONE LISTENED.
posted by janey47 at 12:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [15 favorites]




Yes, now this stupid fuck decision by a bunch of overgrown privileged schoolboys comes home.
posted by infini at 12:16 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'll have to brush up my O Level French *halfsob laugh*
posted by infini at 12:17 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


vuron: But instead we have all sorts of pundits on the left crowing triumphantly about the triumph of democracy over the elites.

Are you able to provide some links? From what I've seen, this is the line taken by pseudo-populist Rightists.
posted by No Robots at 12:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Labour Party could not just fucking once sit back and capitalise and say "see where the Tories have got us all!" No, straight to the back-stabbing.

While that's true (although they stabbed him in the front), I also think Corbyn isn't up to the actual job, which is about management and the skills of leadership. A certain number of people who quit could see that, and realised it was even more dangerous to wait than to push him now.

I've been broadly supportive of him, but at this point I think his critics are right. He's not up to it, and if he continues, he'll fail. If they do deselect all the MPs who resigned or disagree with him, they'll look like little more than a cult. And although these are suddenly extreme times requiring extreme measures, an organisation that behaves like that would simply not be flexible enough to actually have responsibility.

The most depressing thing is that there is now literally no party in England capable of running the country.
posted by Grangousier at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


So no corporation based in the UK can have a AAA or AA+ credit rating any longer? Whoa.

Well if they weren't leaving before...

Fuck.
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


That Politico article is laughable. The dek:

No other EU country has English as their official language and so it could lose its status.

I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?
posted by fitnr at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


English will not be an official EU language after Brexit, says senior MEP

IIRC, Google Translate relies heavily on EU publications to train its neural networks - because they're professionally translated, legally mandated, and cover a lot of different topics, they're a fantastically useful corpus for that purpose. In fact, with a few exceptions*, every language pair quietly goes through English - i.e., when you translate French to Russian, behind the scenes Google Translate is going French -> English and then English -> Russian. If EU docs are no longer translated into English, that could really fuck up the best machine translation software that currently exists.

*mostly closely related languages like Russian <> Ukrainian
posted by theodolite at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


English will not be an official EU language after Brexit, says senior MEP

If Scotland goes indy and stays in, then they could be the official sponsor, if they're willing to forgo recognition of Gaelic.

More realistically, the Powers That Be realize that getting rid of English would seriously undermine the opportunity to shift all of London's banking activity to continental cities.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?

The official language of Ireland is Irish.
posted by billiebee at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?

Each member gets to sponsor one language, presumably Ireland sponsors Irish.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


English will not be an official EU language after Brexit, says senior MEP

That sounds like real scaremongering to me. English was the official working language used by Ireland after it joined the EEC. Insisting on the addition of Irish as a "working language" was a particularly stupid gesture by a later Irish government, and has been pretty well ignored in practice. Anyway, they've two years to get it scrapped if need be.
posted by Azara at 12:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'll have to brush up my O Level French

Qual damage! Zoo alarm!

Or something like that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


There are a variety of links to left wing pundits in the old thread who are going with the "well serves you right for ignoring the problems of the chavs you posh twits" sort of narrative. I don't know that it is indicative of the majority of pundits on the left many of which seem to be aligning with centrist "elites" in going "Oh shit what have we done".

But it seems common enough to be annoying, like they are trying to provide moral cover for the Left Leavers and trying to refute the narrative that Leave was primarily motivated by xenophobic racism.

Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.
posted by vuron at 12:26 PM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


The official language of Ireland is Irish.
I was about to say this, but I double-checked, and Irish and English are both official languages (per Article 8 of the Constitution), though Irish is the "first official language", whatever that means.
posted by dfan at 12:26 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pounded by the Pound

It seems only natural that the capital of Poundland would be Poundtown.
posted by bonehead at 12:28 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?

Saying something, perhaps. Doing something, no. Trying to reassert somekind of actual monarchical control of politics would just make this look like more of a desperate shambles.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:29 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really hate the word "chavs". I wish we could avoid using it, even just as a "elites dismiss the concerns of the working class" way. Low information voters cross the class boundaries (my mother and father in law f'rex) and there are plenty of poor/unemployed folks who are incredibly politically engaged. If it's not too much to ask can we try and avoid using the term please?
posted by longbaugh at 12:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


I doubt that Edinburgh has access to the global infrastructure necessary to become central to the Eurozone financial structure. Modern finance works on milisecond tolerances and being too far from the center of action basically eliminates your ability to compete.

Where exactly is this center of action that would make London ideally located, New York or Zurich a viable alternative, and Edinburgh too far away?
posted by rocket88 at 12:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Do you really want Prince Philip in front of a TV camera right now?
posted by cmfletcher at 12:32 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pounded by the Pound
It seems only natural that the capital of Poundland would be Poundtown.


The way this week is starting, I can only see it ending with Boris Johnson, in a chainmail slip, standing up in parliament and screaming, "Who Runs Bartertown!".
posted by Chrischris at 12:33 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


I like Edinburgh too much to want to inflict those people and that architecture on it.
posted by Grangousier at 12:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?

As the article explains, member states can have as many official languages as they like internally, but they only get to pick one for EU purposes. The UK chose English, so Ireland and Malta chose Gaelic and Maltese. It might be possible for a country to pick more than one (the article discusses this), it might be possible for Ireland or Malta to switch their choice, or the EU might keep English as an official language out of inertia.
posted by jedicus at 12:36 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Where exactly is this center of action that would make London ideally located, New York or Zurich a viable alternative, and Edinburgh too far away?

I presume they're referring to where existing financial industry networking infrastructure already exists, when milliseconds can cost you millions. For example: posted by Celsius1414 at 12:39 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


That Politico article is rubbish, all right.
When Ireland and Malta joined the EU, English was already an official language, which is why the two countries asked for Gaelic and Maltese to be added to the list
Ireland joined at the same time as the UK, not with Malta!

English is the normal working language of the Irish Ministers and civil service officials who attend meetings in Brussels, and has been since 1972. Irish only became an official EU language in 2007, and the process of requiring everything official to be translated into Irish is still underway. So English has always been the language used by the Irish in EU meetings.
posted by Azara at 12:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


ohpleaseohpleaseohplease, if Nicola Sturgeon does get to be the one to keep the Divided Queendom's EU status, pleeeeaaase let her choose Scots as the official language, just for teh lulz …
posted by scruss at 12:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Inside, Corbyn was asked to resign by all wings of the party: lefty Chris Matheson told him he wasn’t a leader, Jess Phillips begged him to quit, Yvette Cooper was the biggest hitter to give a speech, telling Jez he wasn’t good enough. Ex-shadow Scotland secretary Ian Murray revealed to the room that his constituency office had been targeted by Momentum, telling Corbyn “you keep encouraging them”, leaving staff “terrified“. He pleaded with the leadership to “call off the dogs“. Outside in a protest at Parliament Square Momentum representatives chanted “f**k you” to the plotters. A spokesman for Corbyn said: “Demonstrations are part of our democracy.”
posted by My Dad at 12:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


nitpick/query:
so Ireland and Malta chose Gaelic

I thought Gaelic referred specifically to Scotland's Celtic-derived language ('Scots'), not Irish?

posted by snuffleupagus at 12:43 PM on June 27, 2016


I thought Gaelic referred specifically to Scotland's Celtic-derived language, not Irish?

Nope. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages, but they are closely related, and both named "Gaelic".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


English is the widely spoken language in even the UK-less EU so it's very unlikely they'd drop it.
posted by theodolite at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nope. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages, but they are closely related, and both named "Gaelic".
You pronounce it differently, though. Gaeilge (Irish) is pronounced gay-lick while Gàidhlig (Scottish) is gal-lick.
posted by winterhill at 12:49 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yes, HFT drives the practical limits of certain trading resources within a pretty finite radius.

Assuming that the FTSE is still around there is a definite need for a lot of resources in fairly close proximity to that exchange. So while the Bank as a whole could go to Edinburgh or any other fairly decent city there is a need for a decent amount of the infrastructure regarding trading to be in fairly close proximity to London. Same with any of the other major financial markets.

So yeah I guess in theory the Banks could suddenly go off to join RBS in Edinburgh and that would be funny as hell given RBS's threats concerning the Scottish Yes vote. Bankers gonna bank though.
posted by vuron at 12:50 PM on June 27, 2016


Nope. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages, but they are closely related, and both named "Gaelic".

Except that everybody in Ireland uses "Irish".
posted by Azara at 12:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


The way this week is starting, I can only see it ending with Boris Johnson, in a chainmail slip, standing up in parliament and screaming, "Who Runs Bartertown!".

Well, in that case, surely Puntertown.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:51 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."

Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting them, blaming them, or talking down to them.
posted by Beholder at 12:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


I thought Gaelic referred specifically to Scotland's Celtic-derived language ('Scots'), not Irish?

Depends on where you're from and the context. Also, Scots is a very different language from Scottish Gaelic.

Ireland joined at the same time as the UK, not with Malta!

Yeah, some of the details are a mess, but is the broader point incorrect, that English could in theory cease to be an official language of the EU?
posted by jedicus at 12:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


So no corporation based in the UK can have a AAA or AA+ credit rating any longer? Whoa.

No, the Guardian is mistaken: there is no (necessary) connection between the credit rating of the UK government and that of UK-based corporations. And in addition to having no effect on British businesses, the credit rating downgrade has not had any effect on the British government, which has actually seen its borrowing costs decrease in the aftermath of the referendum. (Of course, leaving the common market will have a detrimental effect upon many British businesses.)
posted by Abelian Grape at 12:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


some of the details are a mess, but is the broader point incorrect, that English could in theory cease to be an official language of the EU?

It would seem that way, yes, but a heavy emphasis on "could" and "theory." The EU wants more global influence out of this, not less. Letting the UK become the only official Anglophone gateway to Europe by means of its departure doesn't serve the EU's goals.

Of course Ireland could switch its designation, or they could just change the rules and let members specify a national language for recognition, and a secondary preferred trade language.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:55 PM on June 27, 2016


Scots isn't Celtic. It's descended from Middle English with some Norse and Gaelic influences. Basically, before the was such a thing as England, there was an Anglo-Saxon kingdom up North that got conquered by Vikings and then by Scots. The border went back and forth a bit during the Middle Ages but it now forms part of Scotland.
posted by Diablevert at 12:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]



The Kingdom Of England (that name prob not gonna fly though).

I've seen Poundland suggested.


If a certain aquatic tart approves, I propose Llogres.
posted by ocschwar at 12:56 PM on June 27, 2016


I've nothing against one-liners, but since the last thread reached several thousand comments and this one isn't exactly going slowly, perhaps we could stick to slightly more substantive posts rather than just jokes? My computer really started struggling with the last one when it got beyond about 2,000 comments.
posted by winterhill at 12:58 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]



Academia aside, this conversation has everyone concerned. Was chatting with the guards at the recent midsummer concert and they were worried EU would fall apart as everyone thought they could leave.


Here's how the EU could prevent this:

make it possible, nay, easy, to have temporary departures from the Eurozone. That's what they should have done with Greece 5 fucking years ago.

Let Greece, or any other nation that needs to, issue euro-denominated scrip to civil servants and contractors, and accept it at face value, in order to get some amount of activity going.

It's perfectly legal in the USA. Towns did this all over the country during the Depression. California came close to doing it in 2008. Puerto Rico may end up doing it this year.

If the USA, an actual nation state, allows smaller governments to depart from the dollar zone during crises, then the EU, a thing-that-would-be-nation-state, should damn well allow it too.

Instead, the EU is doubling down, telling the UK that if they change their minds they have to ditch the pound. Not good. Not good at all.
posted by ocschwar at 1:02 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Re banking moving to Edinburgh, a blogger in the Financial Times pointed out that if Scotland votes independence what currency they'd use becomes an open question. The RBS would among the hardest hit institutions --- if Scotland is forced to float its own currency it'd be weaker than the pound now, and whether the new money would be Scottish sterling or euro RBS's massive debts would be in pounds.
posted by Diablevert at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting or blaming them.

The fact that Europe hasn't been drawn into a massive worldwide conflict resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, most of whom would not be the elites of society. That's one argument.

Beyond that, how about the workers rights EU regulations the Tories have been desperate to get out of? They may not be enough or may not cover everything they should, but you never see the folks ranting about burdensome EU regulations proposing anything that gives an equivalent or better level of protection to workers.
posted by zachlipton at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


@vuron

But there have been a ton of people that have been advocating passionately for Remain. That the EU has problems but it's easier to fix those problems from inside the system than outside the system. That if you genuinely care about fixing the problems of the working class Leave was the wrong choice.

I don't disagree with this at all. I believe I said as much. I'm not trying to defend the Brexit vote, or the racism, or the choices, but rather I'm saying all those things didn't happen in a vacuum. The media does influence the electorate, and while I know UK media tends to be better than their American counterparts, a good example of the failure here in the US is the fucking non-stop Trump coverage. Same thing happened with Sarah Palin in 08. People couldn't stand this person, but because they couldn't stand them, they wanted to know what stupid shit they were up to. Because of that, the media focused on them, even though there were actually far more important things going on, both then and now. Now, it has become worse, because now Trump actually is the candidate.

You know, maybe, just maybe if Trump hadn't been plastered all over the media, we wouldn't be stuck with him, and maybe, just maybe, two decades of fear-mongering about Islamic terrorism has come home to roost due to immigration fears, which Trump has been expertly exploiting (and I suspect the Leave group was, too), which in turn normalizes othering, and thus makes racist undertones more common, and thus viewed as more "normal."

Part of understanding these people is to be able to communicate with them, explain to them why Remain matters. It feels like this was unable to be articulated very well (obviously, since Leave won), which leads me to believe, especially with a lot of the abject shaming of everyone who voted leave, that the problem lies, once again, in not actually understanding where these feelings of animosity, lack of democracy, and racism are really stemming from, instead of just writing people off as bigots automatically. If you walk into the conversation thinking "God this fucking bigot," you're not likely going to be able to communicate your position to this person effectively. The endless shaming (even in this thread) of the Leave voters as "petulant children" and the like is immediately deciding to not understand how any of this happened, historically, and thus is absolutely making a choice to ignore the historical lesson and try to make solutions as though this all happened in a vacuum.

Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Ignoring the factors leading up to this vote is fucking perilous. Ignoring that the political, business and media elite have set the stage for this situation over decades means you will never be able to understand where to begin with these people.

Solidarity is what the left should be looking for but the politics of division and othering are apparently good for page hits.

I agree, solidarity is where things need to be at, but if we can't learn to listen to and understand things that contributed to getting us where we are now, then how can we ever make solidarity with the people who voted for Leave?

Racists, while shit, are still humans, and being super dismissive of how they got that way or how to change their mind is just asking for more horseshit just like this. Because obviously what we have been doing is not working.

Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.

You want solidarity, but you're really dismissive of these people. They are British citizens, no matter how dumb their fucking choice was. You're ranting about a minority of leftists ostensibly "aligning" with them (nevermind a vote as big as Brexit definitely leaves people room to have their own leftist reasons to vote for it, and they have a right to do that, and it doesn't mean they're "aligning" with anybody), but you don't seem like you actually want solidarity with the majority of people who voted Leave. You really want solidarity? Learn to fucking talk to the racists and shut down the bullshit before it comes to this. Understanding the history of how this happened and understanding these people is imperative to that, it isn't saying this is a triumph against elites.

Leave won the vote. Maybe you should be more concerned with them than complaining about the other leftists who are trying to point out that maybe you should pay attention to these people's concerns and find ways to educate them if you want shit like this not to happen. Because obviously nobody managed to that before the fucking vote.

---

Beholder says it more succinctly than I ever could:

Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."

Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting them, blaming them, or talking down to them.


And you wan't them to find solidarity with elites who keep telling them that they're asking too much, and they should be happy with all the protections that the EU provides them? I mean, I'm jealous of EU protections, as an American citizen, but business all over the world is doing the same thing, trying to cut costs to increase profits. You can't keep telling people who are obviously saying "well, it's not enough" that "but it is enough" because all it says to them is you're not actually listening.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [24 favorites]



The fact that Europe hasn't been drawn into a massive worldwide conflict resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, most of whom would not be the elites of society. That's one argument.


And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.
posted by ocschwar at 1:06 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Instead, the EU is doubling down, telling the UK that if they change their minds they have to ditch the pound. Not good. Not good at all.
I'm no legal eagle, but I genuinely can't see the case for this from the EU's side. At present, nothing has changed. There has been a non-binding referendum within the UK whose result was, at best, inconclusive. The UK remains a full member of the EU, Cameron's deal is off the table, so until Article 50 is triggered the status of the UK within the EU should be unchanged, right? We still have the UK opt-outs from the Euro and Schengen along with other things like the Working Time Directive.

If the UK government came out and said that they had no intention of triggering Article 50 at this time, then the EU would have no recourse and couldn't pull the UK opt-outs without UK consent? Even excluding the UK from summits before Article 50 is triggered seems dodgy to me as the UK is still an EU member, paying its dues and enacting EU directives until further notice.
posted by winterhill at 1:07 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.

What are you basing this conclusion on?
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.

What are you basing this conclusion on?


1. Decades of peace prior to evert recent step in the formation of the "ever closer union."

2. EU leaders yammering about "ever closer union" all through that time, indicating they saw it as an end in itself.
posted by ocschwar at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.

Free movement of labour was part of the original ECSC treaty, back in 1951: "The member States bind themselves to renounce any restriction based on nationality against the employment in the coal and steel industries of workers of proven qualifications for such industries who possess the nationality of one of the member States."
posted by effbot at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting or blaming them.

The bosses don't love foreign workers, the bosses love desperate workers. The best thing to do for workers everywhere is to write and then enforce wage, working condition and benefit legislation such that it is no longer cheaper to hire foreign workers. Pushing legislation so that businesses on the economic periphery can't screw their workers would help a bit, too, since people wouldn't be desperate enough to come and live among the type of individual who beats Polish grandfathers unconscious in the street.

If people are desperate and miserable enough to migrate, the point is to stop them being desperate and miserable, not just kick them out with a big "well, I've got mine and I'm the authentic proletariat". If it's someone who doesn't know better saying that, then fine, but when it's someone on the left who should know a bit about international solidarity and the likelihood of socialism in one country, shame is what I say.

And didn't we have a bit in the last thread showing that the wage loss of uneducated workers due to foreign workers was something like 1% over eight years since the financial crisis in any case? And that wage loss due to various government policies and large world events far, far outstrips wage loss due to foreign workers?
posted by Frowner at 1:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [66 favorites]


Yeah, some of the details are a mess, but is the broader point incorrect, that English could in theory cease to be an official language of the EU?

The present arrangement of "official languages" is supposed to recognise the linguistic diversity of the EU, but it's extremely expensive since all official documents have to be translated into all 24 languages. When Ireland joined the EEC, English and Danish were added to the pre-existing Dutch, French, German and Italian to give 6 official languages, which was comparatively manageable. Irish officials worked away happily with that, but with more enlargements a small minority of over-enthusiastic Irish speakers here kept agitating to get Irish added, and the government finally went looking for this about ten years ago, and got Irish added in 2007. This was basically a sop to a few voters here, but was extremely unpopular in Brussels, since (as I said above) all official documents are supposed to be translated. So, for a serious expense, translators had to be found to translate endless documents which everyone here was perfectly capable of reading in English anyway. They had a derogation for a long time, since they had difficulty finding translators.

(Maybe the Parliament spokesperson was getting in a dig at the Irish for that mess a few years ago?)

Anyway, apart from the 24 official languages (for official documents), the Commission normally works in meetings in just three languages, French, English and German. One side effect of the Scandinavian and other countries joining was that the Francophones' noses were a bit out of joint as the newer entrants mostly preferred to use English. I can't see that changing now.
posted by Azara at 1:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?

They currently have Charles gagged in a wardrobe. I doubt that's uncommon.
posted by vbfg at 1:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?


First they should arrange for the Polish assault victims to finish their recovery and rehab in an apartment in Buckingham Palace.
posted by ocschwar at 1:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


If the UK government came out and said that they had no intention of triggering Article 50 at this time, then the EU would have no recourse and couldn't pull the UK opt-outs without UK consent? Even excluding the UK from summits before Article 50 is triggered seems dodgy to me as the UK is still an EU member, paying its dues and enacting EU directives until further notice.


Has Juncker's interview been quoted yet? The full thing is worth the read.

Here in Brussels, we did everything to accommodate David Cameron's concerns. My collaborators and I personally spent countless days and nights negotiating an agreement that was fair toward the United Kingdom and toward the other 27 Member States. I was then very surprised to see that this settlement played no role whatsoever in the campaign in the United Kingdom.

At the same time it is hardly surprising. If someone complains about Europe from Monday to Saturday then nobody is going to believe him on Sunday when he says he is a convinced European.

posted by infini at 1:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


While Persuasion seems fruitless (and some see an inevitable Decline and Fall while others have Great Expectations), only time will reveal The Way We Live Now. Have the Brexiters created a Frankenstein with a Heart of Darkness, or can Windsor Castle reignite The Light that Failed?

Either way, we're Through the Looking Glass.
posted by stolyarova at 1:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


None of Juncker's bluster in Bild above changes the legal position of the UK as a member of the EU. He has a point, but his comments in a tabloid have no more legal standing than my posts on MetaFilter in terms of the situation here.

Until Article 50 is triggered, the UK is a full member of the EU under the same terms as it was at the start of this year before Cameron's deal, and should be treated as such. Excluding the UK from EU business at this point seems really iffy.
posted by winterhill at 1:28 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Daily Mirror 16 May
Nigel Farage the Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business.'
posted by adamvasco at 1:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fitch just followed S&P off the cliff and downgraded from AA+ to AA.
posted by Talez at 1:31 PM on June 27, 2016


Excluding the UK from EU business at this point seems really iffy.

You are absolutely right. the UK will continue to be a legal member of the EU and have access to all the amenities as per the letter of the law until and unless Article 50 is invoked.
posted by infini at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2016


Was Boris really expecting Cameron to trigger Article 50? That he would walk in after it was done and then guide them to a Norway type solution?

If so... khaled_you_played_yourself.gif
posted by PenDevil at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Fitch just followed S&P off the cliff and downgraded from AA+ to AA.

Not sure they're going off a cliff so much as describing the action of two people struggling for the controls of a car as it crashes through the guardrail.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Abelian Grape: "No, the Guardian is mistaken: there is no (necessary) connection between the credit rating of the UK government and that of UK-based corporations."

I don't think a bank can have a credit rating that's higher than the sovereign.
posted by chavenet at 1:45 PM on June 27, 2016




Doing something, no. Trying to reassert somekind of actual monarchical control of politics would just make this look like more of a desperate shambles.

Well, since nobody else seems up for running the country, what's the harm in letting the Queen have a go at just governing by decree for a while? It's not like she can fuck things up any worse than Cameron did.

Or Nicola Sturgeon could be the PM, with a mandate to wind the whole Union thing down in an orderly way, given that she seems to be the only person in the country with an actual plan for how to manage things right now.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 1:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Given the economic shocks already felt, being a legal member and winning friends and influence are two different things entirely. Sort of like being legally married after the mistress has come home to show you her new diamond necklace bought with the second mortgage.
posted by infini at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Aaaaand Iceland just brexited England out of the Euro
posted by chavenet at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Another Brexit: England v Iceland: 1 - 2 at full time.

British commentator almost crying, called it the most abject failure he'd ever experienced. Everything's relative, I guess.

(Ok, Wales is still in the tournament. As is Poland.)
posted by effbot at 1:54 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Game score isn't final until Iceland authorizes Article 50.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [46 favorites]


Just FYI the full Vote Leave campaign website has been preserved at The Internet Archive https://archive.org Hurray for archivists!
posted by melisande at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


My fave football meme of the evening.
posted by infini at 1:59 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


Aaaaand Iceland just brexited England out of the Euro

This comment had me thoroughly confused until I realised you don't mean the currency. No one calls it the Euro here, because that's what we call our currency.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:00 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pounded in the Goal by Iceland?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Now Iceland needs to join the EU just to rub it in
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Diamond-mining tycoon and major ‘Leave’ campaign donor Arron Banks has gone on a social media rampage against political journalists connecting incidents of racial abuse with the Brexit vote.
Banks, who is said to have donated up to £6.5 million (about US$8.5 million) to the Brexit campaign, is closely involved in the inner circle of the movement’s furthest right-wing and has been criticised for describing alleged increases in hate crime after the Brexit vote as "media hysteria"
posted by adamvasco at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016


I don't think a bank can have a credit rating that's higher than the sovereign.

As far as I can tell, the credit rating of a bank is not constrained by the credit rating of the country in which it is based in theory, but, in practice, a bank is unlikely to be more creditworthy than the country in which it is based. According to this document issued by Standard and Poor's:
Standard & Poor's long ago rejected the notion of constraining all ratings at the level of the sovereign rating. Evidence from the past 20 years of sovereign crises and defaults supports two key notions that are reconfirmed in our criteria proposal: (1) A sovereign default does not imply that every entity in the country will default, and (2) The economic stress that historically accompanies a sovereign default would be considered severe and lead to a sharp increase in non-sovereign defaults.
posted by Abelian Grape at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I would have been supporting Wales in the football now that Ireland (North and South) are out. But after Brexit I can't. And maybe that's the saddest outcome of all.
posted by billiebee at 2:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can we petition to have a do-over?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:09 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


There are a variety of links to left wing pundits in the old thread who are going with the "well serves you right for ignoring the problems of the chavs you posh twits" sort of narrative. I don't know that it is indicative of the majority of pundits on the left many of which seem to be aligning with centrist "elites" in going "Oh shit what have we done".

But it seems common enough to be annoying, like they are trying to provide moral cover for the Left Leavers and trying to refute the narrative that Leave was primarily motivated by xenophobic racism.

Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.


Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

The emboldening of racists was the most foreseeable outcome of a successful Brexit vote. Leave voters who aren't unapologetic racists, themselves, had no problem risking the happiness and safety of the immigrants and minorities in their community. They looked into the face of xenophobia and shrugged. Now, they tell us about their intentions and their anti-racist stances, like they matter. Meanwhile the emboldened racists are busily making life miserable for anyone with an accent or skin tone they don't like.

The lesson? Racism is a cancer, not a cold. You do not get better by waiting for it to go away on its own.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 2:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [53 favorites]


British commentator almost crying, called it the most abject failure he'd ever experienced.

He also said it might overshadow the other events of the week, so let's assume he's a moron. One of them also blamed Iceland's second goal on Smalling not being used to long throw-ins and that Iceland's style of play was stuck in the 80s.
posted by biffa at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


"In our exclusive poll, half (48%) of British adults say that they are happy with the result, with two in five (43%) saying they are unhappy with the outcome."
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hodgson resigns, leaving triggering Article 50 to the next manager.
posted by effbot at 2:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates: ""In our exclusive poll, half (48%) of British adults say that they are happy with the result, with two in five (43%) saying they are unhappy with the outcome.""

They should take a poll on the football result!
posted by chavenet at 2:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The fact remains that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to have a non-rubbish football team
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Merkel Hollande and Renzi stressed that there were "three areas on which collaboration was crucial: defense and security; the economy; and getting young people into jobs."

Looking at the reference point for defence and security, that an EU army will be a fairly rapid consequence. Ireland and Austria's neutrality consigned to the history books.
posted by stonepharisee at 2:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


He also said it might overshadow the other events of the week, so let's assume he's a moron.

Wait until the global markets respond tomorrow.

Maybe the UK banking industry could move to Iceland?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow, I must be dense, but I totally missed this piece by Nick Clegg, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats:

What you will wake up to if we vote to Leave…

Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson can’t agree among themselves what life outside the EU looks like...

There simply aren’t enough trade negotiators in Whitehall, for instance, with the expertise to renegotiate 50 or so international trade accords...

Overseas investors take fright; money flows out of the country; our credit rating is slashed...

There’s that faintly queasy feeling you get when you see Donald Trump on the TV, visiting the UK on Friday, declaring his joy at the Brexit vote...

That was published on June 22nd, and wow, he *nailed* it.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [32 favorites]


"He also said it might overshadow the other events of the week, so let's assume he's a moron. "
He is an _English football commentator_ - do you need any additional evidence?
posted by MessageInABottle at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe the UK banking industry to move to Iceland?

If only. Iceland puts bankers in jail.
posted by skybluepink at 2:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


No one calls it the Euro here, because that's what we call our currency.

To be fair, I don't know anyone here in Poundland who calls it that, either. It's The Euros.
posted by ambrosen at 2:26 PM on June 27, 2016


I totally missed this piece by Nick Clegg, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats

That just makes me more mad. If he hadn't shackled himself to Cameron back when the Lib Dems were briefly relevent they might have been the one definite Remain voice.
posted by billiebee at 2:28 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


This is the Lib Dem's fault for enabling the tory ascendancy ANYWAY.
posted by lalochezia at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


My fave football meme of the evening.

Mine.
posted by karayel at 2:38 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Brexit: why Britain left the EU, explained with a simple cartoon

What the fuck. What the fuck was that.


That’s my reaction in a nutshell, but for other reasons - it’s their annoying dumbed-down style bordering on insulting with a ton of selective bias sneaked in under the guise of simplicity. Right from that grand statement of intent at the start that you don’t need to follow the "many twists and turns in British politics that have led to this particular moment" to understand everything about the situation since the creation of the EU, no less! Why the EU exists: explained with 2 pictures and 240 words! I could rant on and on but one more thing: that cartoon with the Italian about to jump on to Britain’s ship and saying "I’m coming to your country because there are no jobs left in mine!" - that’s one switch away from "they’re all coming here to our country to take our jobs!". That is how you explain "tensions about immigration"? By the end I was so annoyed I was imagining a touch of gloating in that final paragraph about how it’s a "big deal" and "could be the start of something bigger" like oh, "the disintegration of Europe". But that’s unfair - I guess that’s just their way of closing on a helpful, explanatory note.

No judgement on the post here and the other links, by all means. But it’s baffling to me that these types of Vox pieces should be considered as serious reference material on international matters at least.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:39 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


  The fact remains that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to have a non-rubbish football team

Yeah, but that referendum was non-binding too.

What we need is the Ghost of Robin Day to interview all of the suspects — Cameron, Johnson, Farage, “Pob” Gove — and harangue them with the single question: “Did you, in fact, ever have the slightest clue what you were doing?”
posted by scruss at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


John Oliver went for understated in his reaction to the match.
posted by TwoStride at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Well, since nobody else seems up for running the country, what's the harm in letting the Queen have a go at just governing by decree for a while? It's not like she can fuck things up any worse than Cameron did.

First they should arrange for the Polish assault victims to finish their recovery and rehab in an apartment in Buckingham Palace.


There may be something there in terms of a role for the Royals. I don't think trying to meddle in the Article 50 stuff is a good idea but perhaps the Queen could come out and give a stern speech to the effect of "British subjects, especially those who voted to Leave because of concerns that British values were being undermined , are hereby reminded that foreign residents are under the direct protection of the Government and the Crown itself, and verbal or physical attacks on them are a disgrace to our country, and to Us," etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:43 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


At least they can't leave the Commonwealth, ironically the source of so many foreign looking Brits.
posted by infini at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


The irony about Clegg shackling himself to the Tories back in 2010 was that of course we saw pretty much immediately in 2015 how much the Lib Dems had proven to be a moderating influence on Cameron's government. Of course it was one of those situations where it would've been far better had all the Tory cards on the table straight away.
posted by ambrosen at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]




an EU army will be a fairly rapid consequence

There's a majority for that among EU voters, according to the Eurobarometer; 53% are in favour, 39% are opposed and 8% don't know.

(Twenty-one states are for, strongest in Belgium (73%), Lithuania (68%), the Netherlands (68%), Romania (68%), and Luxembourg (64%). Seven against, strongest in Sweden (64%), the United Kingdom (58%), Ireland (55%), Austria (53%) and Cyprus (53%). Of course, if UK leaves, the overall numbers will change a bit.)

Ireland and Austria's neutrality consigned to the history books.

Well, they kind of already gave up their neutrality by joining, as did Finland, Malta, and Sweden.
posted by effbot at 2:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have to say that spending the last three days reading A LOT about the British political system and party infighting has made me appreciate the American two party system in a way I thought was impossible.
posted by threeturtles at 2:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


ROY. THE BREXIT VOTE WAS NOT MEANT FOR YOU.


On a more serious note. Nick Clegg, solid and intelligent politician. Of course, absolute error to go into coalition with the Tories. Definitely didn't change the way they did anything - you can tell by the way they've kept doing exactly the same things as when they were in coalition. Not like they've nose dived the country into the ground for an internal feud or anything.

Might be a bit of a bitter Lib Dem.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:57 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Formal notice at this level would have to be written by someone authorized in the UK government, and acknowledged as received by the EU. 'I heard you said ...' isn't enough."

Not just an official authorized formal notice, but one that is legally valid. Here's the first line of Article 50, which is very clear:
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
Something like a formal intent to withdraw from the EU could not be merely within the purview of the PM. It must be explicitly voted by Parliament. It's hard to imagine many things that are of greater political magnitude, anything short of this would be and will be argued to be unlawful and the EU lawyers will certainly agree.

Regardless of what anyone is saying, Article 50 hasn't been triggered merely by the referendum result, by public discussion of the referendum result, nor by Cameron discussing it at the upcoming meeting. It shouldn't even be triggered by a mere letter from the government, although in less extraordinary and contested times that probably would have sufficed. Now, it probably will not because any interested party could object that the "constitutional requirements" were not met -- in this context, in these conditions, someone assuredly will object. Not the least because UK legal experts have already argued that it requires an Act of Parliament.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:01 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


[A few comments deleted; let's not have a fight about whether all people outside London think the same way, or about people's usernames. ]
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:02 PM on June 27, 2016


This map of results opened my eyes to the real challenge of the Brexit vote.
posted by infini at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Thousands of people have marched on Parliament Square to express support for Jeremy Corbyn."

This doesn't seem quite right to me. If you're Lexit, then you have the problem that supposedly Corbyn supported and voted opposite your preference and if Brexit is that important to you, you'd then be concerned about Corbyn's judgment. Alternately, if you are a leftist who prefers Remain, then you have the problem that you probably agree that the practical results of Brexit are damaging to Britain's least advantaged and therefore you ought to have concerns about Corbyn's judgment, given his tepid commitment to Remain.

I understand the desire to fight against the Blairites and, yeah, a change in leadership that moves Labour rightward would be worse, but then is the argument that there's no one viable on the left of the party? I guess that could be the case, which is a pity, and therefore sticking with Corbyn is the lesser of two evils.

Still, it seems to me that given the magnitude of the historic importance of this referendum, the high stakes involved, it's hard to understand why a party wouldn't sack a leader who failed to achieve a hugely important result that the majority of the party favored and which he supposedly (but perhaps not really) favored, (And that parenthetical case is even worse.)
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


an EU army will be a fairly rapid consequence

Count me out.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


i think the general message is that it needs to be a Blairite or they'll trash the party. Of course, the party will still be trashed if they get their way, but at least a Blairite will be on top of the trash heap.
posted by Artw at 3:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]




Count me out.

Well, yes?
posted by Artw at 3:20 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


general message is that it needs to be a Blairite

I think the general message is that it needs to be someone who can lead a credible opposition in a general election (which Corbyn probably can't); it's a bit of a stretch to call a lot of the MPs calling on Corbyn to resign and telling him his position is utenable "Blairite".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I went from Cornwall to London and back last week and saw lots of Vote Leave posters on farmland bordering the rail track.

(digression: farmland voters are notoriously regressive, based upon the sea of solid blue Conservative lawn signs anywhere outside of city limits that I'd seen in the recent Canadian federal election.)
posted by ovvl at 3:24 PM on June 27, 2016


From the sidebar of one of the articles linked above

The Lib Dems have gained a new member every minute since Brexit vote
posted by infini at 3:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


more via@edwardnh! ianbremmer :P
  • An Englishman, a Scotsman & an Irishman go to a bar. They all had to leave because the Englishman wanted to go.
  • What's so great about memes is their versatility.
posted by kliuless at 3:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Article 50...requires an Act of Parliament

Which means it also needs passage by the House of Lords and royal assent from the Queen, right?
Not that either would realistically veto such a bill but they would still have to officially endorse it.
posted by rocket88 at 3:29 PM on June 27, 2016


Stormont looks like it will be fun and games. First Minister Arlene Foster is leading a region which voted to stay, even though she and her party (DUP) were in the Leave camp. Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin) voted to Remain, but would benefit from the repercussions of Scotland voting for independence. The UUP are pointing at the DUP for "pressing the button" on events that could lead to the destabilisation of the Union. Foster and McGuinness will both be in negotiations around NI's future under Brexit and - as always - coming at it from opposite sides.
posted by billiebee at 3:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Over the past few days, thousands have vented on social media. “I’m never giving up my seat on the train for an old person again,” read one tweet.

Given that only about 1 in 3 young people apparently bothered to vote I'm not sure I'd want their seat, I don't know that I'd trust them to wipe their own arses.
posted by biffa at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Could you make the argument Corbyn is trying to hijack the Labour Party? Most if not all of his support comes from Momentum and new signups, both groups which are affiliated with traditional Labour. Wouldn't the best thing for Corbyn to do is step down and then stand for re-election as the head of Labour in a leadership campaign? It's like the purpose is to root out the PLP entirely.
posted by My Dad at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2016


This doesn't seem quite right to me.

Well, plenty of folks on Twitter say the place was full of communists (Socialist Workers Party, Spartacists, Alliance for Workers' Liberty, etc.), and not many signs of Labour folks.
posted by effbot at 3:33 PM on June 27, 2016


My Dad, I don't know how anyone could be said to hijack a party he/she/they is formally the head of.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


My Dad, have you ever heard of a thing called the British trade unions?
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ireland isn't the only non-UK EU state to have English as an official language. Malta does, alongside Maltese, and all Maltese are fluent, with the exception of some rural Gozitans. English is also the default business language of larger European companies, with many conducting all their senior management communications in it, so it's not going away.

But as most Mefites will be aware, English language does not equate to England.

As for the Royals - I'm just hoping the Queen doesn't kark it in the near future (Phil is much more likely, but he's the beloved comedy sidekick - a sad role for an intelligent, capable, rational and sci-tech engaged chap, but the benefits aren't bad).

I am, despite fifty years on this godforsaken rock, an incorrigible optimist. My best take on the long-term ramifications of this prize hoo-haw are that with the UK out of the picture and with the salutary lessons of not doing the social contract thing properly, the EU reforms and becomes a much more effective vehicle for its primary purposes - peace, justice, equality and progress. Some time later, following a devastating time in the wilderness, the UK comes back and our grandchildren get some of the benefits we have so blithely enjoyed.

Until then, though, it's going to be a bastard.

I have no words for Corbyn. I hoped he'd be a leader, but he isn't. Now, he could be the conscience of the party, but he won't be.

Things nobody's talking about: the BBC's charter renewal isn't done yet, so unless Top Gear really shapes up and they start popping out those Who eps sharpish, that too will be bloody. That mega-austerity budget may be on the light end of what's needed, as the country runs out of cash but good...

The whole 'can Article 50 be invoked without Parliamentary authorty' thing is a bit of a red herring. If Parliament said that it was not going to do it, then that's one thing - but at the moment, nobody's saying anything. If the EU27 decided to push the button by default, then perhaps - perhaps - a legal challenge might stop it, but a decent chunk of the UK pols would say 'Fair enough'.

At the level of national politics on which such things play out, then fiat is pretty much the way it goes.
posted by Devonian at 3:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have no words for Corbyn. I hoped he'd be a leader, but he isn't. Now, he could be the conscience of the party, but he won't be.

He addressed a rally in Parliament Square earlier; not a word about the present crisis, referendum fallout, etc. Closest he got to mentioning it at all was referring to "recent instances of racist abuse" as "deplorable" (but not a word about the climate in which they occurred, and "referendum", "Brexit" unsaid). Not particularly impressive.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Asked today by Northern Ireland’s deputy first minister how she was,on the first day of a two-day royal visit, the Queen replied “well, I’m still alive anyway.” (video inside)
posted by zachlipton at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


"The fact that Europe hasn't been drawn into a massive worldwide conflict resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, most of whom would not be the elites of society. That's one argument."

We didn't have a war between 1950 and 1973 when we joined. There was no war between when the UK joined and Maastricht, when it was the old EEC. There was no war at any time even when large amounts of Europe were not part of the EEC.

I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?

Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."

"The bosses don't love foreign workers, the bosses love desperate workers. The best thing to do for workers everywhere is to write and then enforce wage, working condition and benefit legislation such that it is no longer cheaper to hire foreign workers."


This is not going to happen though. Have you worked anywhere in the UK with a mixed workforce? Here is what happens: during work, everyone works, but the Polish talk to one another in Polish, the Russians in Russian, the Czechs in Czech and so on. At break, the Polish sit together and talk in Polish the Russians in Russian, the British in English and so on. No-one is interested in joining together. Having a mixed workforce, especially one where some of the workers don't speak much or any English makes it much much harder to unionise and organise so we can do what you say. I worked somewhere, and at the induction the guy showed us the accident book and said "you can write in it in any language you like, I can get it translated." So they were aware that some staff (we were all agency) could not speak English and were fine with it. What I have just said, about organising and unionising is why.

"Merkel Hollande and Renzi stressed that there were "three areas on which collaboration was crucial: defense and security; the economy; and getting young people into jobs.""

Getting Young people into jobs? So what has all the co-operation achieved so far?

"After Empowering the 1% and Impoverishing Millions, IMF Admits Neoliberalism a Failure" (via this mefi thread which people should maybe revisit.)

FTA: "The fearless Argentine journalist Rodolfo Walsh, in a 1977 Open Letter to the Argentine Military Junta, denounced the oppression of that regime, a dictatorship which orchestrated the murder and disappearance of over 30,000 people.

“These events, which stir the conscience of the civilized world, are not, however, the greatest suffering inflicted on the Argentinean people, nor the worst violation for human rights which you have committed,” Walsh wrote of the torture and killing. “It is in the economic policy of this government where one discovers not only the explanation for the crimes, but a greater atrocity which punishes millions of human beings through planned misery. . . . You only have to walk around greater Buenos Aires for a few hours to check the speed with which such a policy transforms the city into a ‘shantytown’ of ten million people.”

This “planned misery,” as Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine vividly demonstrates, was the neoliberal agenda the IMF has pushed for decades.


And the IMF wants us to stay in the EU? Whose side do you think they are on? Where was it, Indonesia I think, where their policies caused unemployment to rise to 75%. So when they say "stay in the EU" do you really think they are saying that because they are concerned about the poor? Or are they on the side of the 1%? And how did the EU/ECB/IMF treat Greece and its people?

Re: Credit downgrade - Wow, such love for the credit agencies on here all of a sudden. Aren't these the same credit agencies that rated all that toxic CDO poison AAA and allowed it to be pushed through the banking systems of the world? And who benefitted from that? The poor of Europe who have seen services slashed, or the 1%? And now they are doing this? Hmmm, sorry if I seem a tad cynical here, but it seems to me that they do not give a shit about the poor and are all about empowering and enriching the rich.

Re: City of London - I am sure the city of London has special status, it is almost a tax haven in some ways. I am not an expert on this, but I am sure there are people on here who can explain exactly how it is. Are Paris and Berlin tax havens? Do they have special status like the city of London does?

"The fact remains that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to have a non-rubbish football team"

When did this happen as they didn't even qualify for the Euros!

"ROY. THE BREXIT VOTE WAS NOT MEANT FOR YOU."

That made me laugh on what has been a miserable night - England were fucking abysmal in the football, one of the worst performances I have ever seen.
posted by marienbad at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


He addressed a rally in Parliament Square earlier; not a word about the present crisis, referendum fallout, etc.

Interesting. The people I know who were in Parliament Square tonight found Corbyn inspiring, and they're more uncompromisingly left than I am. They were specifically pleased that he invoked "refugees, people living in poverty, housing, teachers, trade unions, mental health, gay people, homelessness and the environment."

I myself tend to believe that he is not an effective enough communicator, in the focus-group-driven way a contemporary politician is willy-nilly forced to be, to lead either his party or the nation. But on this night, at least, and for this crowd, he certainly seemed to give voice to some kind of collective aspiration.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?

Corporations will make large amounts of money if there is a war and if there isn't a war. Do not count on corporations to save your ass.
posted by dilaudid at 3:49 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


> This map of results opened my eyes to the real challenge of the Brexit vote.

Looks like it has been edited to remove the few Leave areas in Northern Ireland. Here's the BBC's map: EU Referendum Results - BBC News.

  At the level of national politics on which such things play out, then fiat is pretty much the way it goes.

Shame it was a bloody Fiat 126, though ...
posted by scruss at 3:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


The people I know who were in Parliament Square tonight found Corbyn inspiring, and they're more uncompromisingly left than I am.

Preaching to the choir doesn't win elections, sadly. (And failure to address the biggest political crisis since...I don't know, Lloyd George and the People's Budget, maybe? doesn't look good, either.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Martin Sandbu: What should the EU do now? - "A leap into deeper integration would be the wrong response"
Leonid Bershidsky is entirely right about the need “to show the rest of the Europeans something the English failed to understand: that it’s really better together than apart. Europe’s voters need to see why they need the bureaucratic beehive in Brussels to keep buzzing.” The facts are that in the EU, elected politicians do have control and use it to make common decisions together; that free movement is economically beneficial. If British voters do not believe this, that’s in large part because British politicians (and media) have overwhelmingly propagated the illusion that unelected Eurocrats decide everything, and because they have not chosen to direct the windfall from EU immigration to those who have been left behind since the 1970s.

So the way forward is in a conceptual sense straightforward. It is a form of keeping calm and carrying on, but with more openness and more earnestness. It involves national politicians being more truthful about how decisions are made (much more transparency around council meetings would help) and more willing to make policy nationally that addresses the problems of the left-behind. But what is conceptually straightforward is politically awkward because it requires politicians — the elite, if you will — to own up to having been bad stewards of the control they have had throughout.
also btw... oh and via@interfluidity...
on the rise of transnational facism: "A West dominated by FN, Trumpists, AfD, UKIP, AN/MSI, etc -- would be a West that has thoroughly rejected the Enlightenment project and, along with Putin and the Eurasianists, thrown itself headlong into the arms of the Counter-Enlightenment -- at which point, the Lights really WILL start going out all over, not just Europe, but the world. And the setting of the 'evening lands' (Vesper/West) Spengler's < < Untergang des Abendlandes > > will finally have come to pass."

Democracy, media, and money: "Spengler admits that in his era money has already won, in the form of democracy. But in destroying the old elements of the Culture, it prepares the way for the rise of a new and overpowering figure: the Caesar. Before such a leader, money collapses, and in the Imperial Age the politics of money fades away..."
Spengler notes that the greater the concentration of wealth in individuals, the more the fight for political power revolves around questions of money. One cannot even call this corruption or degeneracy, because this is in fact the necessary end of mature democratic systems.

On the subject of the press, Spengler is equally as contemptuous. Instead of conversations between men, the press and the "electrical news-service keep the waking-consciousness of whole people and continents under a deafening drum-fire of theses, catchwords, standpoints, scenes, feelings, day by day and year by year." Through the media, money is turned into force—the more spent, the more intense its influence... The only force which can counter money, in Spengler's estimation, is blood.
posted by kliuless at 3:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


This whole thing has been heartbreaking to watch and listen. From my own fears, that sense of liberty and choice being removed to having my sister on the phone in tears for the opportunities she sees taken from her children.

It's been de-moralising, realising that my ideals and morals are not shared by a significant portion of my fellow citizens.

The news is frankly frightening, watching the political system and markets go into meltdown. The fact that things I bought from abroad are some £10 more expensive for me than they were on Thursday last week. The fact that in real terms racist abuse on our streets has increased with some places saying "85 reports between Thursday 23 and Sunday 26 June compared with 54 reports during the same period last month".

The only thing that has been remotely reassuring is that the british sense of humour in the remainers seems somewhat intact. Overall though clusterfuck of epic proportions does not even begin to describe the situation for me. I am ashamed of my country and scared for my future.
posted by diziet at 4:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


marienbad: And so if the problem is "untempered neoliberalism is bad for working people," why exactly is the logical solution "put Boris Johnson in charge of everything?" How, in any way, does empowering an even more right wing coalition stop any of the privitazation you decry in your comment or do anything to help the situation?

So far, one of the main effects of the vote is that racists are calling foreign looking people names and kicking them in the head. Does that in any way contribute to the fight against the neoliberal agenda? Perhaps it could help big business if people are busy fighting about how quickly they can throw out people they don't like the looks of instead of talking about working conditions or bank regulation or benefit cuts or the state of the NHS or virtually anything else.
posted by zachlipton at 4:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]




Marienbad you keep on linking to a thread about employment which blames the EU but in fact is the fault of individual countries. This has been debunked dozens of times by people in this thread and the previous one.

This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

I'm sorry, but your statements about employment and neoliberalism as a function of EU membership are factually false - and they serve to enable racism and fascism.

When you and your family start getting billed by the NHS for evey little thing, when your jobs are even more tenuous, you will see this to be true. I'm sorry you and your friends have swallowed these lies. Please stop spreading them here.
posted by lalochezia at 4:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [81 favorites]


Have you worked anywhere in the UK with a mixed workforce? Here is what happens: during work, everyone works, but the Polish talk to one another in Polish, the Russians in Russian, the Czechs in Czech and so on. At break, the Polish sit together and talk in Polish the Russians in Russian, the British in English and so on. No-one is interested in joining together.

10 years later, they've all learned to talk to one another - 50 years later their grandchildren are getting married and you can't tell them apart from each other by accent and every easter we have paczkis for everybody

it's been done
posted by pyramid termite at 4:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [92 favorites]


i mean mardi gras not easter - and with my catholic background, there's no excuse for that
posted by pyramid termite at 4:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


My Dad, I don't know how anyone could be said to hijack a party he/she/they is formally the head of.

Oh, that's easy. By constantly pushing it towards the dogmatic left, to the extent that he ends up drawing a lot of communists and left fringers to his meetings, while totally ignoring all pragmatic social democrats closer to the center (they're all evil blairists anyway).
posted by effbot at 4:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


That was published on June 22nd, and wow, he *nailed* it.

No kidding. That's almost eerie in its accuracy.
posted by gimonca at 4:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?

That exact argument was extremely common from 1900-1914.

On the bright side, one thing Europe didn't have in 1914 or 1939 is NATO, which isn't in any obvious danger. The armies of Europe are allied, mutually coordinated, and small by historical standards. We should not be seriously concerned about the possibility of a European war. All we need to worry about is economic collapse and racist violence, which is surely enough to worry about.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:38 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


The market isn't really agreeing that the EU will put the screws to the UK over this. It's more that they are going to all hurt each other. The DAX (benchmark German index) is down 12.5% since before the vote in US dollar terms, while the FTSE (benchmark UK index) is down 16.1%. Worse, but in the same order of magnitude.

Pretty clear that the mandate in Brussels is not supposed to be sticking it to the English regions for voting "Leave" but making sure that there's a strong, no-strings-attached free trade treaty between the UK and EU, even if it lets those self-same Englishmen have their cake and eat it too.
posted by MattD at 4:57 PM on June 27, 2016


I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?

That exact argument was extremely common from 1900-1914.


And they were right. There were a huge number of smaller conflicts between the Western European great powers that did not erupt into war, largely because peace was too profitable. When the war did start, it of course started in an area without much economic integration.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


even if it lets those self-same Englishmen have their cake and eat it too.

Nope. That's not going to happen.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's more that they are going to all hurt each other.

As noted in the other thread, the FTSE 100 is somewhat held up by exporting companies that has benefited from the collapsing GBP, so direct comparisons are a bit tricky. The more UK-centric FTSE 250 has fallen a lot more (13.4% instead of 5.6%).

...

In other news, it seems the UK has been rather un-British and jumped the queue, so Switzerland's negotiations (to sort out the mess after the 2014 referendum) has been put on hold until the UK situation gets sorted out. The Swiss aren't happy. Also, the Swiss national bank is intervening to keep the CHF down. We all have our problems.
posted by effbot at 5:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


There is no options for being a part of EFTA/EEA (the cake) and being able to close your borders to the rest of the EU (being able to eat it too).

EU markets are being punished primarily for the uncertainty and fears that the Brexit result will signal the end of the Eurozone experiment. But fundamentally even though the loss of the UK economy will hurt the Eurozone the underlying economics are pretty solid. Europe is undeniably stronger together rather than trying to negotiate trade alone.

Right now the residents of the UK have unrealistic expectations about negotiations based upon a total pack of lies coming out of BOGO and Farage. Buyer's remorse has already kicked in hard core and having a couple of months worth of economic uncertainty will no doubt increase unemployment as UK firms cease hiring and economic activity slows down.

The level of uncertainty in the markets will put enormous pressure on the UK parties to come up with a coherent transition plan but right now there seems to be a total lack of leadership from any of the parties including Labour and the Conservatives.

Good Times.
posted by vuron at 5:43 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Observing from afar (from here in the US), I'm puzzled by one aspect of this whole thing. I think it's the case that the economic conditions in the UK -- specifically those affecting people at the short end of the stick -- are not that good at all and haven't been for some time. Furthermore, it seems to me that some Leave voters have reacted to these poor economic conditions by focusing some amount of their ire at "faceless bureaucrats in Brussels" as well as immigrants coming to the UK and "taking all the jobs". Fine. But the piece I'm missing is where is the anger towards Whitehall? The Tories were decisively re-elected in 2015 (although some of that may have been due to disorganization from their opposition? and maybe some of that predicated on the Brexit referendum?). From my remove, I've been under the impression that most of the blame for the UK's economic situation lay with its own government's fiscal decisions, especially since it controls and borrows in its own currency (unlike countries on the Euro). Was the austerity plan dictated by the EU? Or maybe the feeling is that the EU has a substantial influence on the UK's economy, rivaling even that of the UK government itself? Because even after you've booted Brussels out of the UK's affairs, don't you still have basically the same MPs in Parliament pursuing the same kinds of agendas?
posted by mhum at 5:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


The anger among the underclass of Britain has largely been directed at the immigrant groups based upon a perceived lack of assimilation (based upon language and culture) and a feeling like immigrants are stealing jobs.

Over and over people point to data that show that immigrants have had a negligible impact on wages in the UK so the later talking point is absolutely false.

So the other part of the equation mainly centers on the lack of assimilation of primarily Eastern European immigrants into the overall British culture. Additionally there is a lot of distrust towards immigrant groups who are often considered the locus of crime in many communities.

This closely mirrors the way the US has extremely poor race relations especially in regards to Latino immigrants. A perceived refusal to assimilate plus abundant and false rhetoric about immigrants stealing jobs. When you are part of a disadvantaged group of lower income white males with declining economic prospects it becomes very tempting to buy into racist narratives because scapegoating the other is a time honored strategy for getting the proles into fighting among themselves.

Interesting enough the locations where immigrant populations are most numerous (London, Birmingham, etc) tended to be more in favor of remaining in the EU. Maybe it's because having positive interactions with people from other cultures has allowed people to abandon the othering tendencies.
posted by vuron at 6:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]




The PM welcomes the new MP for Tooting, Rosena Allin-Khan.

(who by the way is of Polish Pakistani descent, re the discussion earlier.)
posted by effbot at 6:37 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


When you are part of a disadvantaged group of lower income white males with declining economic prospects it becomes very tempting to buy into racist narratives because scapegoating the other is a time honored strategy for getting the proles into fighting among themselves.

You may want to re-check the causal relations in this sentence.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:58 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.

I promise that we'll totally respect your sovereignity and not bully you at all. We probably would totally allow you to keep single payer and we might roll our eyes about your Soccer obsession even though obviously you guys aren't very good at the sport anymore.

Although part of me kind of wants to see Juncker do a rendition of You'll Be Back updated for the Brexit. After all apparently Farage and Boris seem to think that Brexit is the equivalent to the Boston Tea Party or something.
posted by vuron at 7:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.

I don't know about the US of A, but AUS is making some noises that don't sound very pro-British: one, two, three.
posted by dhens at 7:22 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I promise that we'll totally respect your sovereignty and not bully you at all. We probably would totally allow you to keep single payer

Okay, just because Boris and Nigel took advantage of the Brits by telling a shitload of bald-faced lies doesn't mean Americans should try it, too. C'mon, man.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


vuron: "The anger among the underclass of Britain has largely been directed at the immigrant groups based upon a perceived lack of assimilation (based upon language and culture) and a feeling like immigrants are stealing jobs."

Yes, I get this. The members of an in-group trying to place blame on an out-group (whether Polish immigrants or Belgian bureaucrats) is among the least surprising human instincts. However, I was trying to steer my query towards the seeming lack of direct anger from Leavers at either Cameron or Osborne or the Conservative party in general since they've had their hands on the wheel for the past six years.
posted by mhum at 7:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I saw this on the Guardian's match report for the England-Iceland game and have to re-post it here:

"I can't help but feel if Jeremy Corbyn had been a bit more openly positive about England's chances in the Euros the result tonight would have been entirely different."
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


The members of an in-group trying to place blame on an out-group (whether Polish immigrants or Belgian bureaucrats) is among the least surprising human instincts.

What's blame got to do with it?

Some of them think they will be able to get jobs at Aldi/Tesco et cetera if they can successfully intimidate Poles into leaving and not competing for those jobs. Are they mistaken? Empirically speaking, they're right. Immoral, but right. You might not think too highly of them for thinking this way. But what material motive do they have for giving a rat's ass what you think?

People like that have always existed, in large numbers, and will always exist. Some times they sway elections. The US learned this with Andrew Jackson, so it's not a recent development.
posted by ocschwar at 7:52 PM on June 27, 2016


I don't know about the US of A, but AUS is making some noises that don't sound very pro-British: one, two, three.


Hmm.

DIdn't Oz threaten to go republican when Britain ENTERED the EU?
posted by ocschwar at 7:53 PM on June 27, 2016


As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there are legit reasons to dislike the EU. Its technocracy and undemocratic elements don't really benefit the lower classes. No grand neoliberal project does. It's also a convenient package for entities like the US to coerce/trade/manipulate. All the easier for a wolf to devour sheep in the corral.

The feeling I get is that these aren't the sort of reasons people want out. This is no revolution of the proles. Plenty of middle class, educated folk are equally excited about separating. Plenty of folks wanted out for the sake of a vague, inarticulate notion of nationalism and intra-european racism ("sub-human slavs" and bad attitudes towards Southern Europeans). I'll mention the extra-european flavour in a moment.

In my eyes this is a demonstration of the failure of the cultural angle of the EU project. Clearly in the case of Britain, it has failed to make a fair number of people feel connected to their subcontinental neighbours (Yes, I think for geographical purposes Europe is an Asian peninsula). Although I do believe it be a rather nefarious project on the whole, that bit was probably its most promising and sincerely beneficial element. I'm sad to see people reject such an attempt at cultivating harmony.

On the other hand, I also understand this as a miscarriage of democracy. I do recognise the impossibility of 99% voter turnout. However, as I heard on the radio today, the total number of eligible, voting UK'ers who voted to leave was only in the high-high thirties. 38% of eligible voters is the same repulsive mandate that made Canadians gag when Harper won last. Even when you break it down to fractions of the casted votes, such a narrow win cannot be touted as democracy. At the very least they should have set the bar at two thirds.

The rancor over non-European immigration frightens me. It's terrifying to see what is, in part, a strong rejection of cohabitation with PoC.
posted by constantinescharity at 7:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't know about the US of A, but AUS is making some noises that don't sound very pro-British: one, two, three.

QE2 is 90 and I'll personally hand in my passport to the Minister of Foreign Affairs if that dickbag Charles ends up our king with Camilla as "King's Consort" or whatever dipshit title she's given to make it clear she'll never be considered Queen. Bring on the Australian Republic. Hell, bring on Australian membership to the EU. Stay out of the ERM, get free access to the EU freedom of movement, the EU free trading bloc, maybe we can stop gutting the CSIRO and I'll go back home and vote for it in a heartbeat.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


What's Australia's reason for being in the EU once it leaves the Commonwealth? A large population of people descended from European colonists?

Can Indonesia apply too?
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:04 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Non binding. The Tories and Labor tear themselves to shreds over the stupidity of it all. Snap elections called. Lots of re-alignment, pro-leavers realize with horror they've been cozzening up to jack-booted literal Nazis, Borris gets stuck on the zip-line again, and his jack-boots fall off as he waves all about his little Union-Jacks.

Someone we've never heard of on this side of the Atlantic takes over Parliament, and calls for a Rule 50 vote!

Ruling party, opposition party, every other party besides UKIP and BNP - Howabout NOPE. Does NOPE. work for you? If not, vote in some MP's to do your foul bidding, creature.

"Boaty McBoatface." Really?
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:04 PM on June 27, 2016


Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.

I don't think we could really count on the English to assimilate to US culture — they probably wouldn't even bother to learn our language.
posted by stopgap at 8:05 PM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


ocschwar: "Are they mistaken? Empirically speaking, they're right. Immoral, but right."

My understanding is that empirically speaking, the picture is more cloudy than this. The basic idea is that if all the immigrants left, there might be more job openings at the store... until the store notices that their sales had mysteriously decreased because there are fewer people buying stuff and now there aren't actually any more job openings. Maybe that second part never happens, but maybe it does. I believe this is one of the basic issues in empirical analyses of the economic effects of immigration.

But again, my overall question was not at all about this part of the equation but rather about Leavers' attitudes towards the UK government itself.
posted by mhum at 8:05 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


No grand neoliberal project does. It's also a convenient package for entities like the US to coerce/trade/manipulate. All the easier for a wolf to devour sheep in the corral.

wrong. You just made one big sheep which regularly kicks the ass of corporations and defends workers rights, the environment, and human rights despite its (pre) neoliberal origins...MUCH more than any labor or conservative govt has done in the last 25 years.
posted by lalochezia at 8:09 PM on June 27, 2016 [39 favorites]


What's Australia's reason for being in the EU once it leaves the Commonwealth? A large population of people descended from European colonists?

Well the whole EU being our (Australia's) second largest trading partner behind China. Plus when it comes to trade deals with China we can negotiate with the rest of the EU behind us instead of the world's largest economy trying to steamroll the 12th biggest economy. A full quarter of our population is already born overseas and over 10% already have an EU passport. We have a stable, liberal democracy and economy so we won't automatically become economic migrants. We have compatible values, compatible aims, they love us in Eurovision, we love to study and backpack in the EU.

I mean why wouldn't you? Australia, Canada, and NZ are prime candidates to join the EU! I mean for god's sake they were going to let Turkey in at one point (and hopefully they will once they lose their little proto-dictator) and they're basically in Asia!
posted by Talez at 8:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.

The Bahamas?
posted by Thorzdad at 8:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm sure the EU is a major trading partner of lots of economies. Australia, NZ and Canada certainly stretch the idea of Europe a bit further than Turkey. I see Mexico isn't invited.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


They were seriously lied to by the media and the politicians.

I mean, sure, the media and politicians weren't telling the truth. But what can be said of people who actually believe Boris Johnson when says he's going increase spending on the NHS by 350 million GBP per week? The statement is so preposterous that you can only assume they wanted to be lied to.
posted by great_radio at 8:29 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


I mean why wouldn't you? Australia, Canada, and NZ are prime candidates to join the EU! I mean for god's sake they were going to let Turkey in at one point (and hopefully they will once they lose their little proto-dictator) and they're basically in Asia!

I sorta feel like Turkey is pushing it, but at least part of that country is in Europe. The EU previously refused a membership application from Morocco, as it wasn't in Europe. So I reckon we (Aus, Can, NZ) might not have much of a chance.

Unrelated: Someone upthread used BOGO for Boris/Gove. Add Farage and that gives you BOGOF(f)....
posted by Pink Frost at 8:29 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Australia, NZ and Canada certainly stretch the idea of Europe a bit further than Turkey.

Not sure if it has already been mentioned up-thread, but Canada has spent the last number of years negotiating a free trade deal with Europe called CETA. I've never heard of anyone seriously suggest Canada join the EU, although since President Obama essentially ignored NAFTA after 2008, during the Great Recession, forcing Canada to take the US to court to get the US to stand up to negotiated trade commitments, there was some talk about Canada instead developing deeper trade ties with Europe.

As for CETA, Canada has negotiated a number of free trade deals over the past decade or so, and none of them have really caught fire (notably, the FTA with South Korea has been a dud) mostly because the United States is our largest trading partner.

So it is really hard to believe that trade with the EU would increase if and when CETA is formally ratified and implemented.
posted by My Dad at 8:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


To put that downgrade in some context, per Wikipedia, the other countries with AA rating are:

Abu Dhabi, UAE
Belgium
France
Kuwait
New Zealand
Qatar

The US and EU are at AA+.
posted by great_radio at 8:58 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Australia trades more with ASEAN than Japan, the US, or the EU. And plus, y'know, the Jaegar program is in the Pacific.
posted by FJT at 9:06 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


"EU seemed a little similar to U.S. under Articles of Confederation. Articles of Confederation failed us; seems clear we need(ed?) a United States of Europe. Or else the inevitable occurs."

Yeah, I feel like one consequence of Brexit's fallout is going to be that Hamilton's European tour is an absolute blockbuster. "Okay, so, explain again, if New York's in debt, why should Virginia bear it? But could you have the Hamilton guy explain it with Greece and Germany in place of New York and Virginia? And slow it way down, I want to make sure I take good notes ..."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


On a more serious note, does it seem like the winds on the Continent are shifting towards containing the damage/negotiating a calm exit, or is it moving more towards punishing the UK/making an example of them? (The English-language news media panic is drowning out everything else so it's hard where I am to get a sense of the Continental European response, and Der Spiegel English language edition probably isn't the sum total of it ...)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Australia trades more with ASEAN than Japan, the US, or the EU. And plus, y'know, the Jaegar program is in the Pacific.

Except ASEAN members aren't exactly liberal democracies. Japan and South Korea certainly but they are ASEAN+3. I'd like to see more liberal democracies come together with freedom of movement and join a system like the EU. Honestly that's all I'm looking for. Making it easier to settle wherever I feel like.
posted by Talez at 9:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'd like to see more liberal democracies come together with freedom of movement and join a system like the EU.

Might it be for the best if we don't all lock ourselves into one single administrative system? Having at least a thin layer of bureaucratic insulation between (e.g.) the NAFTA bloc and the EU helps ensure that a regional crisis doesn't destabilize every single democratic country simultaneously.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


The basic idea is that if all the immigrants left, there might be more job openings at the store... until the store notices that their sales had mysteriously decreased because there are fewer people buying stuff and now there aren't actually any more job openings.

Or the immigrants leave, wages for jobs do rise, which causes prices of everything to rise, which means low-income people have the same or worse buying power. For example, here in Texas the vast majority of construction jobs are worked by immigrants. For relatively low wages. Which means, ok, those jobs aren't available to citizens who in previous generations (cause this is not a recent thing and the economy has adjusted to it) may have worked them. But the cost of housing is SUPER CHEAP, so those low-income citizens find work in other fields where, say, communication skills are more necessary, and they can afford a house now. And there ARE jobs available because businesses move here like crazy because everything is so cheap to build. We have some of the best economies in the country and also the highest levels of immigrants.

I mean these things are complicated and all situations have positive and negatives, but that's the point. It's freaking complicated. The reality is that totally cutting off immigration, legal or illegal, is basically impossible.
posted by threeturtles at 9:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have a possibly stupid question about immigration. When I lived in the UK most immigrants I knew were from former common wealth countries. Wouldn't that be completely unaffected by leaving the EU?

As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there are legit reasons to dislike the EU.

It's possible all the leave voters once had to fill out an EU form
posted by fshgrl at 10:02 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have a possibly stupid question about immigration. When I lived in the UK most immigrants I knew were from former common wealth countries. Wouldn't that be completely unaffected by leaving the EU?

Not a stupid question at all - short answer is yes. Despite what some voters seemed to have thought, this referendum result is not going to mean all immigrants (or even some immigrants) have to leave. Maybe they will leave, based on rising levels of racism and a tanking economy. But those who leave will most likely be those with some freedom of movement, not the British citizens with Pakistani, Bangladeshi etc. heritage that these racists hate. As per a previous comment of mine, I don't think many of the Leave voters realise an outcome of this referendum is quite probably more brown skinned people in their lives, not less.
posted by Megami at 10:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Okay, so, explain again, if New York's in debt, why should Virginia bear it? But could you have the Hamilton guy explain it with Greece and Germany in place of New York and Virginia? And slow it way down, I want to make sure I take good notes ..."

Britain, that was a real nice referendum.
Welcome to the Continent, we enjoyed your little tantrum
Do you want to crawl back, or keep choking,
Toking whatever the hell it is Nigel Farage is smoking?
If you don't stay with us, the UK is fucked,
Falling stocks, the Sterling fading, a downgraded credit rating
How are you still hating? If you just put away your impudence
The EU gets a boost -- you'd rather kick out the immigrants
A civics lesson from an empire? Um, Sire,
Your population's diverse 'cause of centuries of gunfire
"We're not racist, we just want Britain for the British" yeah keep raving,
We see which way the Union Jack is waving
And another thing, Mister Direct Democracy,
Don't lecture us with your House Of Lords aristocracy
You don't like our decision-makers? Let me guess
Yours promised you $350 mil a week for the NHS
David Cameron always just hammerin' and stammerin'
Saccharin, never met a pig he didn't cram 'er in,
Boris, man, you dumb as the Donald so stop your clamorin'
Hope you're enjoying your own-goal Gotterdammerung
Sitting there, already regret this
Hey, turn around, bend over, stuff it in your own Brexit
posted by saturday_morning at 10:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [220 favorites]


*speechless*
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


*Bravo!*
posted by zachlipton at 10:30 PM on June 27, 2016


#ham4cam
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I liked the part with the pig.
posted by Justinian at 10:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


The English-language news media panic is drowning out everything else so it's hard where I am to get a sense of the Continental European response, and Der Spiegel English language edition probably isn't the sum total of it ...

Politico.eu has more pan-European news. Newspaper French isn't all that difficult to read, so you could always check out Figaro or Le Monde, too.
posted by My Dad at 10:43 PM on June 27, 2016


Except the part with the pig is untrue, and as much as I hate Cameron I really wish we would start associating him with ruining the country rather than as a pig-fucker (though I am pretty sure he will be remembered as both).
And the scary thing is Boris is actually quite intelligent. Which makes the bumbling fool schtick all the more depressing.
But that is still a masterpiece saturday_morning.
posted by Megami at 10:45 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


what's great is that future generations will probably mix up the relatively tame "young David Cameron puts his dick in a roast pig's head" story with the plot of the Black Mirror episode where the PM has to actually fuck a living pig.

seriously the best thing about the historical record is how easy it is to distort it to make unlikable people seem completely disgusting. the best thing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:51 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


And the scary thing is Boris is actually quite intelligent

"He wears a mask, and his face grows to fit it." - George Orwell
posted by lalochezia at 10:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Britain, that was a real nice referendum.
Welcome to the Continent, we enjoyed your little tantrum


+100,000 Internets to anyone who can get Lin Manuel Miranda to perform this.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


You Can't Tip a Buick - I had the exact same thought about MI5 meddling in the electoral process: the referendum result pretty much guarantees they didn't (and neither did any other elites, as you pointed out). Conspiracy theories aside your interference test is reasonably sound, but the cost of using it is fucking over the country, which I'd argue is a little high.

As for Australia joining the EU, that's an interesting thought Talez. If the defining quality of Europeanness is shared values, Australia is probably a good fit - the country has had small-l liberal tendencies since inception, and is a stable, healthy democracy. As an Aussie, freedom of movement within the EU is pretty attractive to me as well, mainly for culinary reasons, and I'd argue that Australian culinary culture could use an infusion of talent from countries with millenia of culinary history.

But set against personal attractions, there's an objective, massive benefit of independent financial and political systems, namely freedom from instability elsewhere and domino effects and whatnot, like justsomebody mentioned. Without diminishing the very real distress of people more affected by Brexity developments than I am, I'm very relieved to be somewhat insulated from the fallout of all this stupidity. I sorta value the reputation Aussie voters have for voting intelligently, and being subject to bad decisions made by a voting bloc as thick as 52% of the UK would be enough to make me start my own micronation somewhere. (I suspect many Aussies would feel similarly, especially considering Bonnie Malkin's Grauniad opinion piece, which is not written by an Aussie but I think is probably representative of the feelings of British expats here, whether they hold citizenship or not.)

Taking the idea of Australia-in-EU seriously for a little longer, I think at minimum Australia would need to observe how the EU handles systemic effects from the referendum result over the long term. A large chunk of the electorate here values our freedom from the type of economic woes the EU is associated with, and there would need to be ways to insulate our economy as well as perhaps the US can insulate theirs. I'm not sure that's possible while actually being an EU member - the best you could do is perhaps one level greater access than WTO status, maybe. Another issue is the Australian attitude toward authority - being subject to Brussels at all would be an enormously hard sell. Another another issue is that a decent chunk of the electorate supports strong border controls, myself included. EU-style freedom of movement nixes the entirety of the Liberals' policy there I suspect.

One final implication of Australia being in the EU - does Israel get to join too? (I'm personally fine with that idea but I suspect many mefites and many Australians would take issue.)
posted by iffthen at 11:40 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Australia is probably a good fit - the country has had small-l liberal tendencies since inception, and is a stable, healthy democracy.

Stable? We've had five prime ministers in five years. One of whom compulsively ate raw onions whenever one was put in front of him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Which side of the Barassi Line do they typically come from? It's important (to me).
posted by vbfg at 11:53 PM on June 27, 2016


Which side of the Barassi Line do they typically come from? It's important (to me).

All of them except for Julia Gillard were on the rugby league side. Why?

Also, I had to look up what the Barassi Line was.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:57 PM on June 27, 2016


Would Brisbane's AFL team need to change its team song to avoid offending the French if it wanted to join the EU?

(AFL team songs are very much in my top 5 favorite Australian things list)
posted by zachlipton at 11:58 PM on June 27, 2016


> All of them except for Julia Gillard were on the rugby league side. Why?

Then move over, I'm on my way.
posted by vbfg at 11:59 PM on June 27, 2016


To those on the left: Again, now is the time for solidarity (we all know and love that word, right?) There is nothing wrong in supporting aspects of capitalism (FTSE etc) during a period of upheaval since those things are directly responsible for the continued existence and creation of jobs as well as important things like people's pensions funds.

You cannot flip a switch from neoliberalism to socialism overnight. The process is a gradual one and those on the left who supported Remain did so with the full knowledge of this being the case. We suspected that this disruption would be hardest on those at the bottom of our incredibly unbalanced and unfair society and so we erred on the side of caution - not for us but for those most at threat.

We theorised that BOGOF were selling people a bill of goods that they couldn't possibly deliver and since each of the parts of the BOGOF monstrosity are likely to gain in power during this period of disruption and uncertainty and each of them in turn is a hard-right neoliberal that makes the EU look like sunshine and lollipops that now was not the ideal time to exit.

These are moot points however. Unless we literally never hit the Art.50 button we're in the poop now and we need to solidify the left. If you are around working class folk or other Leavers, speak to them. Tell them what the effects are in terms of the ascendancy of neoliberalism and the right wing across Europe, explain to them the environmental impacts, the costs to working people. Explain that at best, we're going to probably be in the EEA and therefore beholden to all the same rules and regulations as before but this time without a seat at the table.

It does seem like an echo chamber amongst Corbyn supporters (I am one of them). The PLP seem to have timed this to cause maximum devastation, particularly with the Chilcot report coming soon. We need his honesty and his nuance but we also need to be able to fight on the same level of media awareness as UKIP or the Labour party will continue to bleed support.

I'm going along to the next UKIP meeting I see*, both to gauge the threat, see what they're selling (and this is what Labour *should* have been doing), and how can we show vacillating supporters that Labour is where the answers lie, and not with the crooked spiv Farage et al.

*I am so going to get beaten to fuck...
posted by longbaugh at 12:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Then move over, I'm on my way.

Well, We Have Boundless Plains to Share.

Unless you're a refugee. Then we have extremely limited space on a hellish prison island to which we will condemn you to for an indefinite period.

I doubt the EU, for all its own flaws, would favourably on Australia's refugee policy
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have been a proud Englishman. The latter will be fine.
posted by vbfg at 12:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


[A couple of comments deleted. Sorry mates, but the Tony Abbott / onion thing is getting to be a derail, and we have miles to go before we sleep. Generally, let's all try to keep this a bit focused to avoid a catastrophic threadxit. Thanks.]
posted by taz at 12:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Going away from the party political machinations for a minute, I've noticed a definite and quick deterioration in public life here which is really getting me down.

For a while, as the economy was improving and people were feeling more secure, things were really starting to feel better, the place was starting to feel safer, there was less aggression, fewer random incidents of violence. Over the past couple of days, driving around has been non-stop tailgating, beeping, flashing, swearing, everyone's spoiling for a fight constantly and you can't drive along without someone two inches from your back with a murderous look on their face emerging from a cloud of steam as they puff and puff on their vape.

Perhaps part of it is that England have been playing - men's stress and aggression levels seem to rise during those periods too - but I think the stress and tension from the Brexit problems has also done this. It feels a bit selfish to moan about this, but it has a real impact on my quality of life when I feel like I'm just a waste of space for going outside. It's just another thing that the politicians can be blamed for.
posted by winterhill at 12:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've seen that too winterhill but I have also heard people in pubs and shops talking about politics (real power relations politics, not media soundbite rubbish like they do at election time) in a way that you get maybe once in a generation.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've seen that too winterhill but I have also heard people in pubs and shops talking about politics (real power relations politics, not media soundbite rubbish like they do at election time) in a way that you get maybe once in a generation.

This is true, the last time I can remember this level of political discourse across society was probably the run up to the Iraq war.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:02 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


EU Parliment Extraordinary session streaming now (English feed).

I presume the latest Guardian liveblog will have highlights.
posted by zachlipton at 1:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Corbyn's nearest man John McDonnell reminds the Corbyn fanclub to stop harrassing MP staff, and yeah, maybe join the party as well while you're at it. While the troopers are accusing MPs of being bought by zionist money. It's not just Farage that's unleashing strange forces, Corbyn seems to be pretty good at that shit too.
posted by effbot at 1:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


The world's most appropriate mis-pronounciation and master of negotiation (as proved with the junior doctors), Jeremy Hunt, is considering a bid for the Tory leadership.

God help us if he does, as he seems to be delusional that the EU will allow us full common market access with restrictions on freedom of movement.
posted by MattWPBS at 1:17 AM on June 28, 2016


The thing is it's now perfectly clear that Corbyn is basically incompetent. Apart from anything else, he's incapable of doing the job he was elected to do.

I sort of hoped against hope that he wouldn't be, that there would be someone who could lead us back from the ruinous policies of the last forty years, but he is. I realise there are all the corporate and elite interests ranged against him, but so what? That's not going to go away, in fact, if anything it's going to intensify. If he can't hold it together now - and it's evident he can't - what's going to happen during a general election?

I mean, the simplest thing: the Parliamentary Labour Party. OK, so they're the evile Blairites, fine, they hate everything he stands for. People who fundamentally disagree with him. But building a working relationship with people who disagree with you is the foundation of basic managerial, leadership competence. If he can't manage a simple working relationship with less than 250 people, how would he deal with a nation of 60 million, many of whom are Tories or LibDem or SNP or, yes, Blairites? What's he going to do? Round them up and have them deselected?

If his response to people disagreeing with him, or even publically not liking him, is to gather his close friends round to form a Downfall re-enactment society, what's the fucking good of him?

I realise that this is as shallow as anything I decry, but what sealed it for me was my Facebook timeline spitting out a video of George Galloway doing his "We all need to gather round Jeremy Corbyn for the good of the movement" bit. George fucking Galloway. If a man is incapable of soberly accepting the fact of male pattern baldness, he isn't likely to be able to form realistic opinions on the enormous practical challenges a country faces.

"But we need someone who'll put forward left-wing policies" - OK. What are the policies? Where are the actual fucking policies, apart from something something tuition fees?

At this point our best bet is probably the SNP, but failing that (and I can see why people might object to a Scottish nationalist party running England, although they never seemed to complain when it was an English nationalist party running Scotland), it probably is the fucking Blairites, though I hate to say it. They might have betrayed the working classes and laid the foundations of our current ills but at least they could run a fucking whelk stall, without degenerating into...

... Solidarity. Soli-fucking-darity. There's a difference between solidarity - the recognition of basic common interests and the putting aside of personal and group interests in the service of a common aim - and people who have power demanding unquestioning obedience because they happen to be wearing the hat with "Leader" written on it. You don't demand solidarity - that's dictatorship - you build it, you show where the common interests lie, you identify a common aim. If you can't do that, you don't deserve it, and you probably don't deserve power.

I keep getting told that the People Have Spoken. But The People don't seem to have any idea what the fuck they're talking about. Democracy in this country is broken because people don't seem to understand simple causality - both the electorate and their representatives. "There are too many immigrants" (incidentally, if employers are shipping in labour from other places rather than employing locally, you don't have a migrant problem, you have an employer problem), or we want to "take back control", so they vote for political isolation, giving up any democratic representation in the political structures that will inevitably dominate their lives and kick-starting a self-inflicted recession. Whoop de doo! If Article 50 does come up for a vote in parliament, any self-respecting politician should vote against it, because it's not a political decision, it's an act of national self harm. The People Have Spoken. For fuck's sake.
posted by Grangousier at 1:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [31 favorites]


So Juncker just said that the people voted and the EU must respect democracy. Farage started clapping and Juncker asked why he was clapping, saying "that's the last time you applaud here" and then ripping into Farage asking "why are you here."

Juncker also wants us to know (English translation) he's not a gray bureaucrat or technocrat. "I'm not a robot, I'm not a machine, I'm a European and I have the right to say I regret the result of the British vote."
posted by zachlipton at 1:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]


They might have betrayed the working classes and laid the foundations of our current ills but at least they could run a fucking whelk stall

Which one of them could? Even Tom Watson seems pretty incapable of running a coup these days and that's basically his raison d'être.

I'm a Corbyn supporter but I'd happily switch to a genuine Prime Ministerial contender in the Labour party if one showed up. A lot of the reason for his overwhelming support last year amongst party members was the comparison between an honest and genuine man and the charisma and idea free figures up against him. Gordon Brown comes across as a giant of the party compared to the shower we have at the moment and he couldn't win an election.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Juncker also made a forceful case that there are to be no exit negotiations until Article 50 is invoked, which takes the sails out of Jeremy Hunt's plan to negotiate a deal first, put it to another damn referendum, and only then invoke article 50.
posted by zachlipton at 1:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


"There are too many immigrants" (incidentally, if employers are shipping in labour from other places rather than employing locally, you don't have a migrant problem, you have an employer problem),

All true, but it just doesn't unfold that way in people's lives. Take Uber for example - the problem is that to the ordinary person, there is no employer, it's an app. Suddenly guys who used to earn 60k gross driving a cab (enough to raise a family etc) are earning 35k because the Uber drivers from Bulgaria can do it for 20k. I agree with the structural reasons for the cut in their earnings that now makes it impossible for them to retire/send their kids to college, but genuine question, what do you say to them?
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Farage really is determined to live his pub bore act 24/7 I see.

Juncker also made a forceful case that there are to be no exit negotiations until Article 50 is invoked

That’s just negotiation in action: Set out your stall, see if the other side takes your initial offer.
posted by pharm at 1:41 AM on June 28, 2016


Suddenly guys who used to earn 60k gross driving a cab

Where the hell is this and can I migrate there?
posted by billiebee at 1:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


what do you say to them?

"An American company built software that runs on American or South-East Asian designed hardware, built in Asia, that makes it trivial for literally anyone to do your job. Your government, not the EU, decided to let them, despite having previously established your industry as a virtual monopoly.

Uber's rise in the UK has almost nothing to do with the EU, and many taxi industries across Europe have been disrupted by it. Voting Leave because you hate globalisation is pointless and will only screw you further; people in a recession spend less money on cabs, not more, and they're more likely to use Uber because it's cheaper."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:45 AM on June 28, 2016 [28 favorites]


I agree with the structural reasons for the cut in their earnings that now makes it impossible for them to retire/send their kids to college, but genuine question, what do you say to them?

You tell Uber they can't operate in the UK/ or otherwise regulate them. I recognize that "isn't realistic" and "But that's competition/ capitalism" but sometimes capitalism has to take it in the neck, especially when it's working against and in fact exploiting the public (what, the 'Bulgarian' doesn't want to send his kids to college?)
posted by From Bklyn at 1:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


Leader of the European People's Party calling out Farage: "the worst liars can be found among UKIP." Demanding that he apologize for his statements during the campaign.

"At the side of Mr. Farage you have Mr. Putin, who is extremely pleased about this result, and that explains a great deal."
posted by zachlipton at 1:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


what, the 'Bulgarian' doesn't want to send his kids to college?)

The EU immigrant drivers tend to be younger, that's all. It's not a job they view as one for life, which opens a whole other set of issues about employment.

billiebee, it was generally claimed to be around 50-60k gross traditionally for a London cab driver who'd paid for the 2 years training upfront and who puts in the hours (and also has a fair amount of self-employment tax breaks, and the fact that it used to be all cash). The cab rent, fuel and other costs come out of that and you're left with enough to go on holidays, a job you can do for life, house in the suburbs etc. - stuff that of course a lot of people have no hope of getting any more as we've discussed before.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:51 AM on June 28, 2016


So what do you tell them?
posted by Grangousier at 1:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just avoid those conversations, like most middle class people in a black cab I suspect.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The EU immigrant drivers tend to be younger, that's all. It's not a job they view as one for life, which opens a whole other set of issues about employment

My, so many sweeping generalisations. Have you ever actually spoken to a Bulgarian taxi driver and enquired of his or her family obligations or longterm employment ambitions?
posted by billiebee at 1:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


Genuine question- was there some kind of EU law that required the UK to adopt Uber that will now be rescinded?
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:56 AM on June 28, 2016


Those cabbies aren't going back to 60k/year if we throw out immigrants. You'll just get British people driving the Uber cars instead (which, I should add, seems to be at least as common right now as immigrant drivers). The solution here is to throw out Uber.
posted by Dysk at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


I just avoid those conversations, like most middle class people in a black cab I suspect.

Me too. I suspect that's why we're teetering on the brink of catastrophe.

Oh, no, come to think of it, the teetering is over. Down we go.
posted by Grangousier at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just avoid those conversations, like most middle class people in a black cab I suspect.

So, how do you know what 'EU immigrant drivers' think about Uber or how they view their jobs?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]




(I ask because cab drivers out here - mostly immigrants - have been majorly screwed by the introduction of Uber. I think the problem might be Uber, not who is doing the driving)
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Uber is regulated in the UK: Their drivers have to go through the same regulations that every other cab firm does (unless I’m completely mistaken about this, which is possible!). Uber doesn’t get to play the same regulatory arbitrage games in the UK as they have elsewhere in the world.

Honestly? You tell the Black cab drivers in London that their USP (the knowledge) is no longer being relevant in a world where every driver has access to SatNav that comes with live traffic information & therefore that their particular monopoly (to pick up fares on the street) is no longer justifiable. The world changes, people move on.
posted by pharm at 2:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Uber is regulated in the UK: Their drivers have to go through the same regulations that every other cab firm does

Uber as a cab company is regulated. Uber as an employer (sorry, "contracting entity" or whatever bullshit) is not.

Guess which bit affects employment conditions and wages.
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Head of the European Liberal Party (Guy Verhofstadt) described Farage's posters as "like Nazi Propaganda." Calls his lies damaging for all "hard working ordinary decent people."
posted by zachlipton at 2:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Juncker says he has imposed a Presidential Ban on all contact between EU officials and UK officials until Art 50

Wow. He's not playing around. It does indeed look like they're going to smash the UK as hard as they can, to discourage any other EU members.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Juncker says he has imposed a Presidential Ban on all contact between EU officials and UK officials until Art 50
So in a situation where MPs don't approve the invocation of Article 50, there's going to be an indefinite ban on the UK engaging with the EU, despite continuing to pay EU dues and implement EU directives?

I saw him hugging Farage in a photo on the Guardian website earlier on. He's certainly doing a good job of making Farage's case for him.
posted by winterhill at 2:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's certainly doing a good job of making Farage's case for him.

Arguably he's doing the exact opposite - trying to ensure that the democracy so many Leave supporters made a central case of their campaign is done with regard to Britain and the EU.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


His point is that the UK can't negotiate a secret sweetheart deal and only then push the big red button. They have to follow the process in an orderly fashion. To put it another way: if you're going to put a giant bomb in the middle of the chamber, get on with arming it promptly.

Full video of Juncker and Farage "hugging" before the session. It was weird.
posted by zachlipton at 2:21 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, how do you know what 'EU immigrant drivers' think about Uber or how they view their jobs?


I always have a chat with Uber drivers because they don't go into all the racist UKIP stuff, and they tell you exactly what they think of Uber etc.

Have you ever actually spoken to a Bulgarian taxi driver and enquired of his or her family obligations or longterm employment ambitions?


Of course. I only mentioned Bulgaria because that was the most recent guy, who told me about the medicine his mum needed for £50 a month, a very classic story of a qualified guy doing a low-status job abroad sending money home. Bulgaria is by far one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the EU, so he had a fair bit to say about that too.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]




He's not playing around. It does indeed look like they're going to smash the UK as hard as they can, to discourage any other EU members.

This morning's news had the Finns squashing any noise of Fixit
posted by infini at 2:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Farage gets up to speak and is shouted at by virtually everyone. Schulz tells the Parliament listening is part of democracy.

"Isn't it funny...You're not laughing now. You as a political project are in denial. You are in denial your currency is failing...You have by stealth and deception without ever telling the truth to the people of the UK and Europe imposed upon them a political union."

Now he's ranting about the "ordinary people" and "we want our country back." "We offer a beacon of hope to democrats across the rest of the continent."

Farage wants to invoke Article 50 promptly, calls for a grown-up attitude to negotiations, and was immediately shouted at. "I know that virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives." At this point Schulz now tells the angry Parliament "you're acting like UKIP normally acts in this chamber, don't imitate them."
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


marienbad: " Where was it, Indonesia I think, where their policies caused unemployment to rise to 75%."

Zimbabwe, maybe? For Indonesia, I can only find information going back to 1982, and since then the highest unemployment rate was 11% in 2005, so I highly doubt you're thinking of Indonesia. Zimbabwe hit 80% in 2008, so it seems possible, but I don't think their policies really match up to anything in Europe, be it EU or UKIP or Tories or Quidnunc Party.
posted by Bugbread at 2:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


From that Buzzfeed article:

“You’re trying to squeeze all these people into a small place. The doctors can’t cope with it. The hospitals can’t. Any surgery, housing, schools, it’s all the same. It’s like that bedroom tax – if the foreigners weren’t here that wouldn’t have been invented.”

Nothing to do with Tory policy, no siree. Foreigners are totally the people living one to a three bedroom house. And it's fit young Eastern Europeans filling up the GPs, not the aging population.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


[A few comments deleted. We've had a lot of threads about Uber, which is currently variously regulated by country as far as I know, and presumably not a direct reason for Brexit, so maybe we can skip a major derail about this.]
posted by taz at 2:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


If I read the phrase "pour encourager les autres" one more time, I'll... I'll... briser mon ordinateur in impotent rage.

The only hope now is that Parliament votes immediately to reject the referendum result as having been secured under false pretenses and ban any PM from triggering Article 50, to take us back to the status quo ante-February. Yes, the UK would never be seen the same way in Europe again, which is true either way. Yes, the UK would have drastically weaker influence over the development of future EU regulations, as opposed to none if we're in the EEA. Yes, we would lose some businesses to Europe, which is already happening. None of that is worse than what we face if we stay on this path. We're three working days into this mess, and look at where we are already.

The biggest effect, of course, will be that many sitting MPs will lose their seats next election, to UKIP and worse. But Britain's latent racism has already been unleashed. At least we'll be fighting it out in the open.
posted by rory at 2:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


So wait, Farage is talking about a "you" with a failing currency and who's been lying to the British people? Has he switched sides?
posted by effbot at 2:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


He was seemingly talking about the Euro and the EU, but the irony was in fact not lost on me.
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 AM on June 28, 2016


I honestly read that as him being dressed down by another MEP at first.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'd like to see more liberal democracies come together with freedom of movement and join a system like the EU. Honestly that's all I'm looking for. Making it easier to settle wherever I feel like.

I only have time for the merest approach to what is a much longer and more complicated set of thoughts, but part of the problem here is that liberal democracies do not reliably remain same, not even over a single human lifetime. Sometimes a democratic government is destabilized or outright overthrown owing in large part to foreign action — often, historically, at the behest of the US — and sometimes a liberal democracy decides of its own right to become...something else. The maintenance of democracy, like any other act of maintenance, is a constant struggle, and requires continuous investments of energy and effort.

What we are seeing in the UK now — what me, my partner, hundreds of friends we know personally and tens of millions of people beyond that are experiencing — is a failure of maintenance, not the triumph of democracy. We have failed to educate entire generations on how to think critically and evaluate the options before them with wisdom, and we have failed to design democratic processes that buffer us against impetuous choices when faced with perilously high-stakes decisions. And now, in this democracy, we will pay the price for that failure.

Blessed be the maintainers, always, everywhere.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [73 favorites]


What we are seeing in the UK now ... is a failure of maintenance, not the triumph of democracy

A-fucking-men.
posted by Grangousier at 3:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, one more thing: This fact-checking by the BBC of claims made by Leave certainly would have been welcome before the polling started. Given the stakes, I would have required it to be broadcast at the top of every hour.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:05 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


I was in my twenties in the mid-1990s, part of a liberal, multicultural, left-leaning, global-facing democracy, and watched in horror as the national political conversation was hijacked by a minor politician appealing to latent racism, who entered parliament alongside a new right-wing government. Over subsequent years that government pulled the country more and more to the right, with hardline policies against refugees and worse. That shift is one reason I was keen to move to another country for a few years, a few years which have now turned into fifteen.

Twenty years on from the 1996 election, the country's racism is taken as a given in the rest of the English-speaking world; I have to accept this, and make apologies for it when it comes up, and defend all the good things my country has achieved, and explain how the dominant narrative in no way represents what I believe or what most of my friends and family believe.

My Australian friends and family.

I will never again put up with smug British superiority about how racist Australians are. The mask has been ripped off, Britain, and the face underneath is exactly the same. You are us and we are you. And America: be honest, you know you're in this same terrible boat. There but for the grace of November 8 go you.

We have to fight this, all of us. Open racism is in large part a byproduct of economic conditions and media narratives which must be addressed, but first the very openness of it has to be challenged.

Don't get all English and polite on us now. Don't overhear someone saying something racist on public transport and tut under your breath, or shrink away in embarrassment, or say nothing for the sake of a quiet life. Shout at those fuckers. Swear at those fuckers. Get Australian at those fuckers. We can stamp this down, but it has to be now, and it has to be hard.
posted by rory at 3:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [55 favorites]




The Full English Brexit means fewer kippers for Ukippers? British fishermen warned Brexit will not mean greater catches
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Really? I thought there were quite a few among the "elite" who promoted Leave and whipped up a lot of the anger, like (referenced above) "Diamond-mining tycoon and major ‘Leave’ campaign donor Arron Banks" and, of course, the owners of all those Pro-Leave Media owners... is Rupert Murdock still running a few papers? I'll bet he's definitely Great Britain's most powerful Australian now.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


If people voted Leave to stick it to the elite it's strange that we're talking about stopping poor Bulgarian taxi drivers earning enough money to support their families. Is sticking it to working class immigrants as well just a happy bonus?
posted by billiebee at 3:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [31 favorites]




The inevitable venerable meme trundles into view: Boris Johnson's HQ as the EU referendum result comes in.
posted by Grangousier at 3:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


What's Australia's reason for being in the EU once it leaves the Commonwealth?

Australian Republicanism has nothing to do with leaving the Commonwealth. It's about replacing the Queen as head of state, which at this point is a purely symbolic move. It's also separate from the issue of changing the flag, although that often goes hand-in-hand with it.

The Commonwealth has other countries with their own heads of state and Union-Jack-less flags, most prominently India.
posted by rory at 3:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Taking a quote from the article, I think his point's a lot better than the headline:

Yes, the world has changed massively, and university is no longer reserved for the privileged few. But nevertheless, according to all the statistics, social mobility has receded a long way from the high watermark it was at when I left school in the 1970s. This is one of the reasons the working class, in their inchoate rage, decided to leave the European Union. Because whatever the facts of the matter, they felt abandoned.

I'd agree with this. There's been a lack of engagement with people lower down the proverbial food chain, and I think that needs to change. It doesn't change that voting Leave is probably one of the most damaging things they could do to themselves, but it makes sense.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


How do the right-wing free marketeers avoid the blame every time? Tories cut public services and give corporations enormous taxpayer handouts in exchange for the McJobs they provide. But somehow this is the EU's fault? or globalisation's fault?

I'm sure Turnbull here in Oz wishes he had such a convenient scapegoat.
posted by harriet vane at 3:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


we're talking about stopping poor Bulgarian taxi drivers earning enough money to support their families. Is sticking it to working class immigrants as well just a happy bonus?

There has been a fair bit of organised opposition to Uber by the incumbent cabbies (as opposed to only targeting the drivers), but the EU Commission backed Uber a few weeks ago.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:00 AM on June 28, 2016


The inevitable venerable meme trundles into view

Inevitable but very funny. "We can't leave the EU. That's mental!"
posted by billiebee at 4:01 AM on June 28, 2016


"Or the immigrants leave, wages for jobs do rise, which causes prices of everything to rise, which means low-income people have the same or worse buying power. For example, here in Texas the vast majority of construction jobs are worked by immigrants. For relatively low wages. Which means, ok, those jobs aren't available to citizens who in previous generations (cause this is not a recent thing and the economy has adjusted to it) may have worked them. But the cost of housing is SUPER CHEAP, so those low-income citizens find work in other fields where, say, communication skills are more necessary, and they can afford a house now. And there ARE jobs available because businesses move here like crazy because everything is so cheap to build. We have some of the best economies in the country and also the highest levels of immigrants.

I mean these things are complicated and all situations have positive and negatives, but that's the point. It's freaking complicated. The reality is that totally cutting off immigration, legal or illegal, is basically impossible."


But this is not what has happened in the UK - there was a housing shortage and it was made worse, prices went up faster, rental availability went down, rental prices went up, it became a buyers market that was wonderful for landlords and property owners who have made a killing. Meanwhile, the poor can't get on the property ladder.

BBC Fact Check: "Vote Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith claimed that the UK would need to build 240 houses a day for 20 years to cope with increased demand. We've found this claim to be correct. And as we've outlined here, the recent increase in immigration has put additional pressure on school places. Overall it is equivalent to less than one pupil for each school in the UK, although it's important to point out that immigration is not evenly spread across Britain. "

240 houses? Where are they going to be built? We only have so much land, much of it is farmland we need to feed the population. And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?

And just remind me again how many bankers did these wonderful countries that make up the EU send to jail after the financial crash?

As for Juncker - he was head of Luxemboourg, a tax haven that runs (and has for a long time) schemes whereby (under EU law) corporations can set up shell companies and use them to avoid paying tax in (for e.g.) the UK. It must have cost the people of Europe hundreds of billions in lost tax revenue over the years, money we could have spent improving our countries, but no, we have to let the corporations get away with not paying their fucking tax.

And would you agree that the power structures such as the US political parties, the US houses, the UK government, the Regulators have been captured/subsumed./taken over by the rich and powerful, by the ruling elite? And you shomehow think it will be different with the EU over the long term?

Right I have to work now. I will leave you with a joke from teh football (via the guardian)

Patrick Kielty: “Boris - probably best if you secure those borders before this England team gets home.”
posted by marienbad at 4:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


we have to let the corporations get away with not paying their fucking tax

We have to? Oh no, the UK Government happily lets them away with it all by themselves.
posted by billiebee at 4:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


the EU Commission backed Uber a few weeks ago

And the UK allowed it years ago and judged it legal last year. I know you hate the EU but you're clutching at straws now.
posted by harriet vane at 4:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


If the UK govt backed it and so did the EU, then obviously the cabbies had nowhere else to go... apart from to the lies of Farage and Johnson.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:13 AM on June 28, 2016


marinebad - we hear you. You've made your position clear in this thread and the other. You know we're on the same side, right? You know that whilst we want the glorious revolution we also want it as bloodless as possible and with the minimum possible disruption to working people's lives? We get that you now believe us to be in a better position than last week. That's cool. What is your next step to take us to the promised land?
posted by longbaugh at 4:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


There are fine EU countries with higher population densities than the UK. You seem to be making a "the boat is full" argument while claiming not to be with the racists.
posted by patrick54 at 4:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


If the UK govt backed it and so did the EU...

Off the top of my head I know France and Germany have put some regulations on Uber to make it operate more in line as a regular on-call cab company.
posted by PenDevil at 4:19 AM on June 28, 2016


If the UK govt backed it and so did the EU, then obviously the cabbies had nowhere else to go... apart from to the lies of Farage and Johnson.

And yet leaving the EU doesn't get rid of the UK government. So what now?
posted by harriet vane at 4:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


This perhaps doesn't reflect well on me, but today I've had to walk away from two conversations involving people who regret their vote.

Both were employees of the same provincial research oriented university with a high proportion of fee paying European students that I am. One where all employees are incredibly fearful for their futures anyway since the introduction of fees and the massive reorganisation of the institution this precipitated.

I am physically shaking with rage. These are good people I have been friends with for a long time.

In how many places is this scene being repeated up and down the country?
posted by vbfg at 4:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]


The English-language news media panic is drowning out everything else so it's hard where I am to get a sense of the Continental European response, and Der Spiegel English language edition probably isn't the sum total of it ...


Yes Spiegel online international edition is rather good but of course it’s limited to a selection of English translations of their own Spiegel articles only. So that’s a very partial snapshot of the German media debate.

For a much wider snapshot of the press from more European countries I’d recommend Vox Europ - it publishes translations in English (and across all languages) from media all over Europe, even countries and languages typically ignored by English-language media. It also has a very active comment section and is updated very frequently.

There’s also Euractiv which is bigger and well-funded, it produces its own content in partnership with some European media, it’s much more focused on EU policies and affairs and closer to EU institutions; and EU Observer which apparently has more of a euroskeptic slant.

Politico.eu has more pan-European news.

Uh I don’t know I wouldn’t recommend Politico.eu as a good source on pan-European news, it’s often very clickbaity and focuses more on targeting a certain kind of American readers than on understanding and presenting European political debates from within. What I happened to read of their commentary on the Greek debt crisis last year was rather awful and distorted.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:25 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


backed Uber

Backed doesn't mean a free for all.

"The commission’s paper said companies in the sharing economy should not be subject to sector-specific rules – such as regulations aimed at hotels and taxi firms – unless they own assets and set the price of the service. But Katainen also stressed that such businesses should not become a “parallel informal economy” operating free of regulation. He said: “It’s clear that the collaborative economy cannot be a way to abuse labour. Neither is it a way to avoid paying tax.” [...] Member states should also distinguish between individuals providing services on an occasional basis and providers acting in a professional capacity, by establishing thresholds based on the level of activity, the guidelines recommend."

Fwiw, Sweden deregulated the taxi business long before Uber arrived. The first thing that happened was that they started ripping off literally everyone, especially tourists ("why work a full day when I can charge a few tourists hundreds of dollars over the the usual price and go home" or my favourite from that article "nobody who knows what they're doing uses my shitty service, therefore I have to overcharge to survive"). It's a rotten business.

Still not sure how a Brexit thread came to be about a Silicon Valley "disruptor", though.
posted by effbot at 4:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


From Grauniad Live update:
Sajid Javid, the business secretary, has been holding talks with business leaders today, from groups like the CBI, to discuss the consequences of the Brexit vote. But trade unions were not invited. Frances O’Grady, the TUC general secretary, said:

It is disappointing that the representatives of working people are not part of these talks. At a time when the government should be looking to heal the wounds of a divisive campaign, this is a backward step.
Same old, same old...
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Still not sure how a Brexit thread came to be about a Silicon Valley "disruptor", though.

Really keen not to derail, but the Uber stuff is interesting because (dare I say) it's one of the few examples of a truly working class occupation that many of us commenting here have some direct unmediated access to (it certainly is for me in my metropolitan elite existence). Plus in London cabbies have been an indicator of social change in many ways, e.g many were Jewish immigrants from 1830 onwards.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:38 AM on June 28, 2016


240 houses? Where are they going to be built?

We're a country clever enough to fit 15% of its population in a single city that occupies 0.6% of its land so I suspect we can figure it out. The housing crisis is at least in part due to the decline in social housing which is something which could be fixed with the correct political will. Of course its not aided by real estate in London turning into an investment opportunity where flats sit empty while accumulating value for millionaire owners.

And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?

These people will need to live somewhere and due to the global nature of global warming telling them to go somewhere else because we're worried about our trees isn't a solution. There are lots of challenges in accommodating humans to global warming, but environmentalist anti-migration arguments only really work if we forget that the environment we're protecting doesn't stop at national borders.
posted by nangua at 4:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


If people voted Leave to stick it to the elite it's strange that we're talking about stopping poor Bulgarian taxi drivers earning enough money to support their families. Is sticking it to working class immigrants as well just a happy bonus?

No - the Tim Lott article spoke of the ire at the privilege of the elite. Anger that there were so very few "haves" and there were so many of us "have nots". The problem is that a lot of the "haves" were spinning the story as "the problem is that there are too many of you 'have-nots' and getting rid of some of them would help the rest of you have more", so that they woudn't catch wise to the fact that the real problem is that the "haves" just have way more than their fair share, and have been rigging the game so that they can get even more still.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


To be fair, Silicon Valley disruptors are part of the bigger picture behind this result. Amazon and its ilk have had an enormous impact on the UK economy, putting many UK retail firms large and small out of business, and their reluctance to pay sufficient UK tax will have contributed to the austerity conditions in Britain of the past eight years.

If services that the British people had relied on for years had not been so badly weakened by governments insistent on budget cuts, the resentment over "pressure on services" would never have taken hold. That would have removed some of the cover for other sources of resentment in the Leave campaign.
posted by rory at 4:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Vote Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith claimed that the UK would need to build 240 houses a day for 20 years to cope with increased demand.

>>>240 houses? Where are they going to be built?

According to this [PDF], 390,000 houses were built in 2015, that's 582/day. So... we are already building twice that?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]


Seems like another case of Leave quoting technically accurate but context-less numbers to scare people. Oh my what a surprise.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]




Poor woman. I want to hug her.
posted by vbfg at 5:02 AM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]




"Scotland did not let you down, please, I beg you, do not let Scotland down now!"
Alyn Smith, MEP gets a standing ovation from the European Parliament - less Farage.
posted by rongorongo at 5:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?

The UK Green party, who has probably spent more time thinking about the environment than whatever brexit forum you're getting your arguments from, is very much for an EU membership, partially because the EU's much stronger focus on environmental protection. From their manifesto:

Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia. Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.

The only thing you'll win by leaving is that nobody will notice how far behind the UK is on things like renewable energy, etc, since the UK will no longer show up in the comparisons.
posted by effbot at 5:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


Gratishades - we should work as a team! (the version I linked to gives you the full speech).
posted by rongorongo at 5:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Poor woman. I want to hug her.

Oh, yes, yes, yes... me too.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:14 AM on June 28, 2016


The link that rongorongo and I posted there leading me to idle fantasies about the EU riding to the Scots rescue. The push-back would be huge from England though and it wouldn't be too hard to conceive of English nationalist tensions being stoked further. Fairly sure that the 21st Century wasn't supposed to be so interesting. Remember the "End of History" everyone?
(PS rongorongo's link is the full version.)
posted by Gratishades at 5:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?

Modern agriculture, especially livestock, is terrible for global warming actually.
posted by Dysk at 5:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here's a video of Scottish MP Angus Roberston when he spoke at PMQ. (Sorry, its a FB video)

How come when I hear any Scottish MP speak I feel that this is how politicians should act?
posted by vacapinta at 5:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


I’ve seen a lot of people saying that the turnout among young people was only 36%, but I think it would be wise to take that figure with a large pinch of salt. We don’t actually know how turnout breaks down by age group for this referendum, the figures just aren’t available (an probably can’t be with a secret ballot). The figure that everyone is quoting is based on pre-referendum polling done by Sky Data . For a start, polling has been notoriously unreliable recently, but the methodology also makes me think that it’s unlikely to be an exact figure. They tweeted what this figure is based on:

Based on 9+/10 certainty to vote, usually/always votes, voted/ineligible at GE2015

This is a bit ambiguous. I’m not sure whether the 36% is all 18-24 year olds they asked who fit into one of the above categories, or whether they needed to be in all three to be counted. (That ‘ineligible to vote at GE2015’ is included makes me think it’s those who fit all categories, but I don’t know for certain.)

Given that the turnout for this referendum was 6 points higher that at GE2015 (at 72% to 66%), an estimate based on whether someone voted previously is likely to leave out a number of people who actually did end up voting this time. Especially given that the IPSOS-MORI estimate for turnout among 18-24 year olds at GE2015 was 43% (still low and still only an estimate, but higher than the Sky Data estimate). I personally think it’s unlikely that when overall turnout has gone up by 6 points, the turnout among the young would go down by 7. But really, we just don’t know what turnout among the young was.

The Sky Data figures are primarily useful as a relative measure of turnout, rather than absolute. That turnout among the young is lower than amongst the old is definitely borne out by the figures we do have from the referendum. The Financial Times has compared the median age of regions and the turnout, which does show a trend towards higher turnout in areas with higher median ages. There’s a definite case for saying that low turnout among the young had an effect on the result, but I don’t think the 36% figure should be uncritically repeated.

On a lighter note, the Corbyn Warnings twitter account is back in business.
posted by Law of Demeter at 5:26 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


You seem to be making a "the boat is full" argument while claiming not to be with the racists.

And the whole full argument is such a dogwhistle anyhow. Vol = vol (full = full) has been one of the rallying cries of the extreme right in the Netherlands for a very long time. See CD party.

I'm fascinated by all the Lexit arguments which, when the surface is scratched, seem to come back to immigration. I shouldn't have thought it would be so open. Again, the same thing happens in the Netherlands: "I'm not a racist, but it's actually true that..."
posted by frumiousb at 5:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [28 favorites]


marienbad: "240 houses? Where are they going to be built? We only have so much land, much of it is farmland we need to feed the population. And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming? "

You do realize that even if immigrants don't come into the UK, they will still need places to live, right? Keeping immigrants out won't prevent housing from being built, it will just mean they're built somewhere else.
posted by Bugbread at 5:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


240 houses? Where are they going to be built?

You have one litre of water in a container. You pour 240 ml from that container to another container. The total volume of water is still the same.

Britain is leaving the European Union, not Planet Earth. (Though some Brexiters may hope).
posted by plep at 5:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I know that virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives."

Says a commodity trader who's been a politician for half his adult life. Ugh.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


Farage really is committed to his pub bore persona method acting isn’t he? You’d almost think it was the real him or something.
posted by pharm at 5:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


If there is a Presidential Ban on any conversations between EU and UK officials, that's going to be particularly unfair on Scottish efforts to gain support for a pathway to continue in the EU come Indyref2. I have no doubt, however, that the good bureaucrats on all sides will be quite capable of ignoring any such ban in creative and useful ways.

Of course, Nicola could just deliver Art 50 notification herself - or, better, Alex Salmond, who is Troller-In-Chief. could do it. (Not serious, not serious.)

The only way to counter racism and exclusion is through political will from the top down, and that's been conspicuously lacking. A good friend of mine teaches English as a second language to Muslim women in inner-city London, for example, and you might think that's a good thing. It's much more than that, though: her lessons are often the only time these women are able to mix freely outside their families, to be without male consorts, and to be free to ask questions and discuss matters about British culture and life. It's where they can discuss how to cope with the problems and pressures of having children who are assimilating, about dealing with the state systems, about all the messy details of cultural and practical life. It's a sympathetic, supportive and extremely good thing my friend does - and she has had to spend SO MUCH of her time fighting not to lose all her funding, because why should immigrants get special treatment on the UK taxpayer's dime? Spongers.

The facfs are simple and echo throughout history: immigration, even of groups in large numbers who are culturally very different to the extant inhabitants, results in great things for everyone if you are prepared to deal with it fairly, sympathetically and practically. But it is very easy to traduce the process, which is why you need a strong, clear and continuing commitment to protect this process - which most certainly includes giving non-immigrants equivalent consideration in their lives - and once you get into the spiral of politicans seeking to get support by that traducing, it gets harder and harder and needs more and more strength of will from the political class to correct.

Thence to things like Brexit, and on to God knows where.

I don't know how to break that loop. Finding a narrative to engage young people in politics would be a good start - I don't blame the under 30s for not voting very much in the referendum, it was such a poisonous and unpleasant debate beforehand that for anyone with idealism and interest it was like gargling with someone else's vomit. Compare the Scottish independence referendum, where despite a lot of bluster and bollocks the level of civil discouse among the people was high, courteous and involving. Lots of young people were involved.

Not a lesson that Westminster seemed keen to learn from. Odd, that.
posted by Devonian at 5:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


And America: be honest, you know you're in this same terrible boat.

We're in a different terrible racism boat. At least it isn't your cops beating up Poles.

waves sadly from the poop deck
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


"240 houses? Where are they going to be built? We only have so much land, much of it is farmland we need to feed the population. And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming? "

There are estimated to be 1 million empty homes in the UK.

It's very easy to simply blame the housing shortage on the immigrants but it's a complicated subject with its roots in many poor decisions by successive UK governments.
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


Very interesting perspectives and thoughts here, and very helpful sharing of information from a variety of sources. I'd like to thank the honourable members of MeFi for their contributions, which I've been reading over a number of days with great interest.

Particularly those whose input comes from a place of deep feeling on the issue - your efforts to share your perspectives are extremely appreciated, through which we can sense your great hearts, as well as hear your important words (and enjoy your wit, no less).

Thanks to all for your very, very valuable conversation.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [46 favorites]


Vote #1 quidnunc kid :) thank you for your lovely comments!
posted by winterhill at 6:06 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Scottish Parliament's first debate since Brexit streaming here.
posted by Devonian at 6:06 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


And America: be honest, you know you're in this same terrible boat.

Friend, it's a fucking armada over here.
posted by Chrischris at 6:14 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Just got a work-related call from a vendor (small software company) in the U.K.; I am in Rhode Island, U.S.A.

Unsurprisingly the news came up, and the woman on the phone immediately switched from trying to set up a meeting for me with her boss, to talking about the vote. She was not pleased with the results, and seemed resigned to a lot of bad things to come. She warned that we in the U.S. would also have our own opportunity to vote this fall, with Trump seeming (to her) to be in the same ignorant mindset as the Leavers.

So it's not just Americans making this comparison -- we all know we got boats from the same lousy boatwright. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 6:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's very easy to simply blame the housing shortage on the immigrants but it's a complicated subject with its roots in many poor decisions by successive UK governments.

It's Thatcher's bill, basically.
posted by Artw at 6:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Given the legal status of devolution, I don’t think Nicola can (legally) deliver the notification. It has to come from Parliament, or it’s authorised representative.

It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US - a disenfranchised class kicking back against an elite who have taken their votes and/or apathy for granted is one element clearly.
posted by pharm at 6:26 AM on June 28, 2016


More awfulness.

Channel 4 video from a tram in Manchester this morning

England fans in Europe, also Channel 4.

Both Facebook videos. No idea if you need an account, sorry.

I am officially through with the people who joined a coalition of racists pushing a nationalist agenda telling people they're not personally racist. From the bottom of my heart, fuck those people. Fuck them right into the ground.

Eye bleach: Romanians for Remainians
posted by vbfg at 6:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]




It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US - a disenfranchised class kicking back against an elite who have taken their votes and/or apathy for granted is one element clearly.

Or, racists who cover for their racism by talking about being disenfranchised by elites.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


Observe the disenfranchisement!
posted by tobascodagama at 6:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Romainians for Remainians is sweet :) A little bit of warmth in a cold-hearted week.
posted by pharm at 6:32 AM on June 28, 2016


Just really sticking it to the neoliberals in Brussels, that bloke.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd make lazy comparisons to early 1930s Germany, but Weimar the debate?
posted by vbfg at 6:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US

There are definitely similarities, yes.

Broadly speaking, a bunch of politicians have spent years scapegoating minorities/immigrants/"others" to build up a base of single-issue (or near-single-issue) voters that would never dream of voting for anyone but them. Sometimes these politicians actually believed in the shit they were spewing, and sometimes it was just an opportunistic way to get a base of support that their opponents can't easily sway. Now, years later, they are all shocked, shocked that there's racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc rampant amongst their supporters to such a degree that their supporters are trying to burn it all down because they believe all the lies they've been fed will come true when they do.
posted by tocts at 6:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


I love how there are people suggesting that the strong messaging coming out of Brussels is just pre-negotiation posturing and of course the EU will come to it's senses because they absolutely need the UK's economy to function.

Just dangle pushing the button on article 50 out there, make it seem like the UK is really serious and the EU will come rushing back to the table willing to give the Tories and UKIPs everything that they desire (no payments to the EU, Border Control, a Veto on EU regulations probably, etc, etc).

It's based upon a very delusional self regard for the UK's place in the current world order. Yes the UK is extremely useful in maintaining a link to the Anglophone world particularly in North America but Obama can call Hollande and Merkel just as easily as he can call Cameron. The UK is a convenient staging ground for the world of international finance to interact with the EU in a relative safe zone but it isn't critical.

But it seems like there is a refusal to accept that the sun has set on Empire or maybe there is an acceptance but a belief Empire can be resurrected under Farage and BOGO.

Already it seems like France and Germany and presumably Italy are preparing for creating a EU Defense Force of sorts. The UK wants to retreat into isolationism, the US always seems to be willing to engage in some sort of political calculus about interventionism, NATO might or might not be reliable in the long term.

With Putin signalling a desire to return to the previous borders of the Soviet Union even if it's slowly taking chunks out of the Ukraine and other Black Sea nation states and maybe gobbling up the Baltic states there is a degree of nervousness in the EU about having to stand alone vs a reemergent and expansionist Russia.

Regardless of the nationalist elements in Holland, the UK, Denmark, there seems to be a growing realization among European leaders that Western and Southern Europe cannot endlessly depend on the Aegis of US power to maintain western social democracies and that the development of a new axis of power less dependent on the whims of the US electorate and the geopolitical interests of the US is required to maintain the western european standards of Social Democracy.

As someone who genuinely believes that the development of a new pan-European federal state not just prevents European wars and promotes trade but can also promote freedom, civil rights and democracy in a way that sometimes the US fails at I definitely want the European experiment to succeed.

I grew up in a time of duality between international communism and western democracies. It kind of sucked. Later on it was replaced by American hegemony which we have come to realize has some bright spots and plenty of bad areas. Having a multi-polar world where there is a multiplicity of geopolitical players seems to be a possible improvement and having the EU and the US work together to promote international democracy seems ideal.
posted by vuron at 6:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


Romainians for Remainians is sweet :) A little bit of warmth in a cold-hearted week.
All the Romanians I've ever spoken to have said how nice it is in Romania! But they're in this country because if they were in Romania, they'd be earning about £2-300 a month. I would have loved to explore Europe more, see what it's like in these far-flung places, but that's not going to happen anymore.
posted by winterhill at 6:38 AM on June 28, 2016


Poor woman. I want to hug her.
An interesting thing from that interview is the host mentioning that Nigel Farage's wife is German.

The Dutch version of Nigel (Geert Wilders) also has a non-Dutch wife.

And one of the people in the Buzzfeed:We Visited The Town Where 75.6% Of People Voted To Leave The EU. article was a Turkish immigrant complaining about the Poles.

I went to Austria earlier this year and ran into a Dutch lady who'd been living there for a long time....she was complaining about the immigrantes.

It's just odd to see that.....I'm not really sure what to think of it.
(I'm an immigrant to Holland myself..hence the 2 dutch examples)
posted by Spumante at 6:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.

Again, it doesn't matter if you voted Leave and claim you're aren't racist. It's that you willingly sided with racists who are now feeling empowered by saying shit to POC and white people they've enthusiastically othered. Your moral high ground was done on the backs of people who are now being abused even more.
posted by Kitteh at 6:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Re: Farage in the European Parliament today: He has one agenda now, which is to stand up in Brussels and be enough of an asshole to everyone to diminish our chances of repairing this.

At this point I'm clinging to the slender hope that Juncker's Presidential ban on informal negotiations, and the EP's vote for a swift move on Article 50, plus Kelvin MacKenzie's voicing of his doubts and fears in The Sun, will add up to the tabloids pushing a narrative that it would actually be more of a two-fingers-up to Europe to go "fuck you, we're staying in."
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Channel 4 video from a tram in Manchester this morning

Awful. Kinda surprised by how long it took the crowd to react, tbh.

What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.

Yeah, that exactly. Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.

(Other crazy and scary stuff, sure, but not that.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


There is some small hope here that our politicians won't be the shower of useless fuckwits they usually are and will vote against Brexit going through, given that they'd be acting on the mandate of the people they represent. On that point, I've heard a few people from West Belfast complain about the fact that their MPs are Sinn Fein and so don't take their seats in Parliament. Which maybe saves them the decision between gleefully pointing out that GB doesn't represent NI's interests, and letting it go ahead so that Scotland leaves and opens the door to the disintegration of the Union.
posted by billiebee at 6:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


A tiny request:
Since many of us (including me) are learning so much about Europe here... can all y'all do me a favo(u)r and call my country by its proper name? It's the Netherlands, not Holland.
Thanks, that'd be grand!
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]


Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.

I wonder how much of that comes down to more Americans considering themselves badasses (perhaps rightly so, I dunno). I know that I would probably never stand up to a racist guy or young person throwing epithets, because I would be scared that it would end up with me getting my teeth knocked out, bones broken, or worse. Its not that I wouldn't want to get involved or make a scene, but that I wouldn't want to get killed. When I see videos where people take on assholes in the US it always seems like the person taking them on is confident that if it came to blows they could totally hold their own.
posted by Bugbread at 6:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]



Channel 4 video from a tram in Manchester this morning

England fans in Europe, also Channel 4.

Both Facebook videos. No idea if you need an account, sorry.

I am officially through with the people who joined a coalition of racists pushing a nationalist agenda telling people they're not personally racist. From the bottom of my heart, fuck those people. Fuck them right into the ground.


Me too. Seeing this happening in my own city, knowing that many of my friends are scared to go into the city centre for fear of encountering little shitty thugs. Mates of mine who have been going out, engaging in British society, going to baby and toddler groups who are now worried that they will get abused in front of their kids.

This vote enabled that and you can ignore that reality as much as you like. If you look towards immigrants as the route of the problem with the NHS, housing, education, whatever, you are wilfully ignoring reality and you are enabling that shitty little thug.
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [21 favorites]


What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.

Yeah, that exactly. Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.

(Other crazy and scary stuff, sure, but not that.)


British culture has some good points. The extreme aversion to making or being involved in 'a scene' is not one of them. That and the tabloid-stoked fear that anyone wearing a hoodie or baseball cap is probably carrying a knife makes the perceived risks (physical and social) of speaking up or stepping in too high for many, many people.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Which is, needless to say, a shitty state of affairs and part of the enabling of racist attacks.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:55 AM on June 28, 2016


More awfulness.

And in the darker corners of Corbynland, it's the Jews. Always the Jews.

I don't think I've seen a single tweet from a UK politician today that doesn't have people screaming about zionists in the replies :-/
posted by effbot at 6:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Did you know if you needed David Tennant reading Scottish tweets about Trump in your life? If not, here's your chance to find out!
posted by zombieflanders at 6:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


It's likely also, partially, a lack of priming. If you're used to or can reasonably expect to witness awfulness like that, you imagine yourself in those situations, and you imagine how you would like to react. Studies have shown that priming increases the chances of living that out when it actually happens.

I suspect a lot of British people haven't needed to do that, before. If that continues to change, so will they. Indulge your embarrassing, heroic daydreams of what you'd have said to that idiot. How you'd step between him and his target. It might be important.
posted by gilrain at 6:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Romainians for Remainians - if anyone is in need of a Romanian mother, drop me a MeMail! You can drink, you can smoke, and we'll bitch about the world order until all hours.


All the Romanians I've ever spoken to have said how nice it is in Romania! ... I would have loved to explore Europe more, see what it's like in these far-flung places, but that's not going to happen anymore.



winterhill, you can still come! It's still a short, cheap flight away and will remain that way even if the UK soon faces visa complications. And, for now, it's still beautiful, though if our own fuckwits had their way it'll soon become a desert. Thank dog for EU env. regulations!
posted by miorita at 7:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


When it comes to Scotland it depends on two people, Mariano Rajoy (or his successor) and Charles Michel.

If they say no any work Scotland undertakes will be for naught. Hopefully they can understand the difficult situation that Scotland is in and they don't break away as a separatist state but to remain as part of something bigger than themselves.
posted by Talez at 7:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's likely also, partially, a lack of priming. If you're used to or can reasonably expect to witness awfulness like that, you imagine yourself in those situations, and you imagine how you would like to react. Studies have shown that priming actually increases the chances of living that out when it actually happens.

That, and an altercation like this in America, will--at its worst conclusion--involve guns not knives. And that makes it orders of magnitude more dangerous to bystanders. If its between having you and your kids caught in crossfire, or working together to make sure some drunken racist lout is neutralized, I know where most Americans (whose tolerance for casual violence is perhaps a bit more developed, but YMMV) would come down.
Also, do you not have transit police in the UK?
posted by Chrischris at 7:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


In re transit, racism and US-vs-UK:

1. People say and get away with shitty stuff on public transit in the US all the time. I've heard "speak English" and other stuff. It's one reason I bike so much. People say shitty stuff about Somalis on public transit here in MPLS. It does not generally rise to the level of that video, but I bet six months ago most British people didn't think things would rise to the level of that video.

2. In the US, most people who ride public transit are poorer, unless you're talking NY or San Francisco. There's less social distance, so you are much more likely to get pushback if you say shitty stuff. If you're just some random working class person, there's not as much social distance between you and some other random working class person who is an immigrant.

3. I cannot overstate the importance of scaffolding - every time I have successfully responded to a situation of injustice or social failure (which is, like, maybe 5% of the times I wish I had) it has been because I had imagined something like that happening and imagined what I would do. "What would I do if I saw someone passed out on the sidewalk?" "What would I do if I saw an older dude harassing a girl?" Etc.

This is just all so horrifying and sad and scary and very, very ominous. I have been so worried that if we end up with a bad election here we'll have racists rioting and seeking out people to beat up, and that seems indeed to be what they do. I am just so sorry this is happening.

(Also, yes, we have a lot of guns here in the US, but I have witnessed about umpteen gazillion bus altercations between stroppy, assholish people and they just don't pull out their guns and start blasting. I'm not saying it literally cannot happen, but "I am afraid to speak up against racism because the racist might blow me away" is not a realistic assessment of public transit in the US. )
posted by Frowner at 7:14 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]


Chrischris, yes we have transit police but you’re not going to find them on every tram in Manchester.
posted by pharm at 7:14 AM on June 28, 2016


Did you know if you needed David Tennant reading Scottish tweets about Trump in your life?

I love you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's likely also, partially, a lack of priming.

an altercation like this in America is.... orders of magnitude more dangerous to bystanders...working together to make sure some drunken racist lout is neutralized

It's both. The culture is more confrontational, and there's more perceived hazard to everyone.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:16 AM on June 28, 2016


Chrischris, yes we have transit police but you’re not going to find them on every tram in Manchester.
Are the Manchester trams like the Sheffield ones? On those, there's always a conductor walking up and down selling tickets and checking everything's okay. I've never felt unsafe on them. I have felt unsafe before on unmanned public transport like the London tube.
posted by winterhill at 7:16 AM on June 28, 2016


Yes, we have British Transport Police. You can call them on 0800 40 50 40, or text them on 61016 if you want to report an incident without anyone noticing you doing so.
posted by Catseye at 7:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


People say and get away with shitty stuff on public transit in the US all the time.

Absolutely true, I just don't hear much of this particular thing. And there is a crowd reaction to outright physical intimidation, typically.

In the US, most people who ride public transit are poorer, unless you're talking NY or San Francisco. There's less social distance, so you are much more likely to get pushback if you say shitty stuff.

I was just typing something to this effect, but you said it better. I agree, this has to be a big part of it.

"I am afraid to speak up against racism because the racist might blow me away"

It was meant the other way around -- the stakes are higher in being a bystander to some escalating confrontation in an enclosed space.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:20 AM on June 28, 2016




Manchester trams do not have conductors - because most of the tram lines are extensions of the original commuter rail network they didn’t need them to enforce ticket use as that could be done at the train stations (which were designed for that need when they were built).
posted by pharm at 7:25 AM on June 28, 2016


240 houses? Where are they going to be built?

Classic "the boat is full" xenophobic misdirection.

In 2015, there were just over 390 housing starts per day in the UK. For those who may be struggling with the math, 240 is quite a bit smaller than 390.

So if the numbers aren't actually the problem, perhaps it's really something else.

I wonder what that could possibly be?
posted by dersins at 7:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]


Matt Taibbi: The Reaction To Brexit Is The Reason Brexit Happened

"unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels"

Sigh.
posted by effbot at 7:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Good to see Taibbi join Greenwald in the list of scolds reminding us that no this isn't about xenophobic nativist tendencies in the UK which have been part and parcel of the British culture since fucking forever and are normally hidden behind a facade of polite genteel conversation but is in fact yet another reason why the elites should be marched to the gullotines.

More divisive BS that more or less argues the opposite side of the same coin as the UKIPs.
posted by vuron at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US - a disenfranchised class kicking back against an elite who have taken their votes and/or apathy for granted is one element clearly.
There are big parallels, but I also think there are some glaring differences. One of them is that Trump is a very gendered phenomenon: he appeals primarily to disenfranchised-feeling white men, and his overt misogyny is a turnoff to many comparable women. I don't think there was anything similar going on with the Brexit movement, which is closely tied to race/ ethnicity, region, and class but, as far as I can tell, not really to gender. The American electorate is also more racially diverse than the British electorate is, which limits the power of overt xenophobia in national elections. (It can still be very powerful in local and statewide elections.) Finally, the polling on Brexit suggested that Leave had a chance, and conventional wisdom was that the polling was wrong. This could all change by November, but Trump is way behind in the polls at the moment, and his numbers are dropping.

Like I said: I'm not denying the parallels. Populist nationalism seems to be having a moment in a lot of places right now, and it's really sad and scary. And I'm not complacent about Trump: I've already started knocking doors to register voters for the Clinton campaign. But I'm seeing some "Brexit means that the US is doomed" scare-mongering, and I don't think there's any reason to overstate that case.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Friend of mine no longer feels safe walking around on the streets of Manchester: 'what might happen alone at night'. No idea what to say to reassure him and never would have thought I would have to.
posted by litleozy at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Do you think Greenwald and Taibbi have a chatroom where they formulate talking points?
posted by vuron at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016


It's worth following the #ScotlandInEurope hashtag on Twitter right now. Things are changing rapidly as the Scottish Parliament is having a serious debate about the implications of Brexit.
posted by kariebookish at 7:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Do you think Greenwald and Taibbi have a chatroom where they formulate talking points?

https://theintercept.com/2014/10/30/inside-story-matt-taibbis-departure-first-look-media/

Not sure, but they've certainly been aligned in the past.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:42 AM on June 28, 2016


this is not a Trump/US election thread
posted by winterhill at 7:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


You can also watch the Scottish Parliament's debate live, if you're so inclined: http://www.scottishparliament.tv/
posted by Catseye at 7:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Taibbi does at least understand why if the referendum was run again, the Leave vote would probably be even bigger.
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


but is in fact yet another reason why the elites should be marched to the gullotines.

To be fair, a study of history shows that periodic pruning of the elites is useful for societal and economic development. Plus, the press is very eager to start using "Brexecutions" every chance they can get.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]




Siemens is one of the biggest employers in the town where I grew up.

I know that I shouldn't bring personal stuff into a political thread, but I'm really nervous about what's happening in Scotland in particular. Every time something comes up regarding Scotland and the current political environment there and the positive, uplifting stuff that's coming out of Scottish people and even politicians (!) I wish that I was there, living and working there - and not in six months, not in a year, but today.

And then I get to thinking - what if I can't find a job there? What if I can't afford to live there after years living in cheap South/West Yorkshire? What if the door closes on Scotland for English migrants before I get my arse in gear, get my act together and move? Isn't it a big risk to walk away from what's almost certainly a permanent job in the English NHS? And many other worries. I have suffered with an anxiety disorder for some time and I know a lot of it is that - but tonight, I'm going to go home from work and veg in front of the computer when I know that I should be looking at jobs and opportunities in Scotland before it's too late. I hate myself sometimes - I can be so inert.

And then tomorrow, I'll worry and worry again about all of the above - I don't really know what to do!
posted by winterhill at 7:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Great Betrayal: "A generation of failed leaders have sold out entire countries to the ultra rich. Betrayed, desperate, enraged people are turning to strongmen and thugs, demagogues and bullies. Who are legitimizing actual political assassination. A very great line is being crossed."
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


winterhill - if you need an accountability partner, memail me. Happy to review your CV and give you any help I can to identify the best websites for searching for vacancies etc.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


winterhill - I'm also available for a chat as you know, although I'd be mainly able to assist with Glasgow queries.
posted by kariebookish at 7:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]




I convinced that this whole Brexit vote is probably an elaborate publicity stunt to announce the release of a reboot of Terry Nations Survivor series from the 70s (yes I know there has already been a sort of reboot) but this time instead of a pandemic flu released by accident the story is a "satire" about how xenophobic nationalist MPs trigger a collapse of the world economic system in order to result in the rise of a fascist state but they are unprepared for the actual repercussions.

You know because then I could imagine that by the end of series 3 it's revealed to be an elaborate Milgram experiment.
posted by vuron at 8:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Guess they'll confiscate his password, or something.

guppy1234
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:02 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


"A generation of failed leaders have sold out entire countries to the ultra rich"

Or, in the words of Frank Turner...
--
As as American kid, I grew up watching British TV and listening to music from the U.K. Later I traveled there as a teen-ager, spent half a year there in college, and my wife and I went on a vacation in the 90s. I have friends there still...and it breaks my damn heart to see a system and an economy and a whole country that was deliberately broken just so some people could make private gains.

Good luck, Scotland. Good luck, those of you in the U.K. who haven't given up to fear. Hang on!
posted by wenestvedt at 8:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Some clarity on legal options. David Allen Green has just confirmed that Article 50, that officially starts Brexit, can't be invoked with the PM conveying the message in interpretative dance, invoking Article 25 twice or shaking his/her head while mouthing yes.

Statistically though, Regrexit isn't a thing. British voters overwhelmingly want to leave the EU, with 75% of Leavers wanting to leave _immediately_. 42% of Leavers said immigration was an issue, while only 8% of Remainers thought so.

And oh, Murdoch thinks leaving the EU is a good thing.
posted by the cydonian at 8:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


BBC: "Pressure has eased on UK financial markets after two days of turmoil in the wake of the Brexit vote, with the FTSE 100 share index opening higher.

In mid-afternoon trading, the index was up 2.75% at 6,146.69, while the FTSE 250 had gained 3.3%.

The FTSE 100 lost 5.6% in the previous two trading sessions, while the more UK-focused FTSE 250 had slumped 13.7%.

The pound also showed signs of recovery, rising 1.2% against the dollar to $1.3382."

(At the end of the article it says: "When asked if there would be tax rises and spending cuts, he [Osbourne] said: "Yes, absolutely." - Right. BBC, 9th November, 2015 - Spending review: George Osborne 'secures deals' on 30% cuts." This guys entire ideology is predicated on making cuts. And he still hasn't met his targets.)
posted by marienbad at 8:10 AM on June 28, 2016


Guess they'll confiscate his password, or something.

Surely, GurlzGurlzGurlz
posted by marienbad at 8:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


None of Juncker's bluster in Bild above changes the legal position of the UK as a member of the EU. He has a point, but his comments in a tabloid have no more legal standing than my posts on MetaFilter in terms of the situation here.

Sadly, it doesn’t matter if it’s Juncker or someone even more unlikeable saying it, it could be Lord Baelish saying it, what he’s saying in that particular quote from the interview linked by infini above is, unfortunately, a matter of fact. The settlement he’s talking about was negotiated by the European Council, not Juncker and his staff alone, it was "a legally binding and irreversible decision by all 28 leaders", and they did spend countless days and nights negotiating those concessions with the UK (and let’s remember, that was on top of all other opt-outs and special concessions the UK always enjoyed as a special status member) - and it was negotiated specifically because of the referendum, and yet that played no role whatsoever in the campaign, that’s a fact too.

The rest of that quote about complaining about Europe and then not convincing anyone that you’re for Remain is also under everyone’s eyes. The disappointment about all that has been expressed by many others in Europe, even in stronger terms.

Another quote from the interview, "the will of the British people must now be put into effect as quickly as possible", that’s almost verbatim from the joint statement by the EU leaders, so that too is not just Juncker’s own blustering opinion.

"For decades British governments have played a double game: getting all the benefits of EU membership while opting out of its burdens, in the meantime undermining and even blackmailing the club from within" - this is not from Juncker, but an opinion piece in in today’s Guardian. I’m not endorsing the conclusion in the headline, but I think it’s worth a read for a look into a less UK-centric insular perspective than the one currently dominating the debate. The comments below it are terrible, but here’s one worth a read too:
I am both Dutch and British - and like Joris Luyendijk I live in Britain. He formulates very well the huge frustration built up with British behaviour in the EU over the last decades. Britain, a country I deeply love despite its Euro-foibles, and where I have made my life, really does have an over-inflated sense of its own worth compared to the rest of the EU, and does need to come to accept a more realistic sense of its position in the world. Outside the EU this is more likely to happen than if it remains inside. The Brexit has also created a huge amount of anger towards Britain on the continent amongst both political leadership and ordinary people, something that will not die done quickly. This was a crisis no one on the continent wanted, and which none of them had a vote in, something hardly discussed during the Referendum. I canvassed for Remain, but was severely disappointed, like Luyendijk with many of its arguments. To people on the continent the EU is much more than a mere market. The likelihood of the EU falling apart is quite low in my estimation as a debate like the frankly delusional debate that occured here which mostly dealt in fantastical lies would be difficult to imagine ever occuring in another European country. We simply have received much stronger inoculations against delusions of national grandeur through our history. I heartily wish that Britain stays in the EU, but I do share the frustrations of many Europeans with Britain's constant obstructionism in the EU. If Britain does go for a Brexit, I hope that Scotland, Northern Ireland and even Wales manage to remain in (I predict that Wales will see a strong increase in nationalism over the next few years, rapidly catching up with Scotland in that regard, if Brexit really goes ahead). I am not sure whether Britain would still be welcome in the EU even if it managed to reverse democratically the outcome of this referendum, though I would be very happy if it was as it would spare millions of people unnecessary suffering.
posted by bitteschoen at 8:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [38 favorites]


Any thoughts on measures to strengthen financial E.U. regulations that were making progress but hindered by the U.K. because they'd be damaging to the City? We should lobby MEPs to support them now, mostly because they might get through while the U.K. cannot argue as strongly, but also because they might divide City's position on Brexit. :)
posted by jeffburdges at 8:26 AM on June 28, 2016


The likelihood of the EU falling apart is quite low in my estimation as a debate like the frankly delusional debate that occured here which mostly dealt in fantastical lies would be difficult to imagine ever occuring in another European country.

This does not square with my experience of Italian politics when living there...
posted by Coda Tronca at 8:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


...and the next chapter begins: Labour MPs vote no confidence in Corbyn 172 to 40
posted by effbot at 8:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]




Shit a brick. That's quite a margin.
posted by Happy Dave at 8:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Shit a brick. That's quite a margin.

It was mentioned on the news that 90 MPs were needed to form a full ministerial team.
posted by popcassady at 8:41 AM on June 28, 2016


For those still labouring (ha) under the illusion that Leaving is somehow better for the working classes: Michael Ford QC’s legal opinion states: “All the social rights in employment currently required by EU law would be potentially vulnerable”. He lists those rights that he believes are most at risk post-Brexit from a government with a deregulatory agenda. They include rights to properly-paid holidays, protections for agency workers, health and safety protections, and protections from some forms of employer discrimination – such as compensation rates, and protections for pregnant workers and older workers.
posted by billiebee at 8:37 AM on June 28 [+] [!]


Sounds distinctly like they want a US style employment marketplace.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Good work on imploding, Labour.

OK. So we're all agreed, right? Scots run the UK from here on out?

I'll come to the UK, set up shop and vote for it to help.
posted by Talez at 8:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


That Luyendijk opinion piece is pretty good.

Basically the UK has been undermining the EU from the inside for various reasons (typically based upon a more free market ideology - most of the dominant EU countries are much more comfortable in more state intervention in the economy). Some might see that as the UK promoting Freedom but it also has arguably resulted in more pro-Corporate stances to be taken.

The corporations have already come to the proper conclusion that it's best to negotiate with the central authority of a federal state rather than the individual nations. A single body of regulations is easier to deal with than 27 even if the overall body of regulations imposes more controls on corporate power.

The article rightly recognizes that the balance of power regarding economic policy has already shifted to Brussels in large part. It's just the balance of power regarding political power still firmly resides within the individual nation states.

The conservatives in the UK rightly understand that the EU is slowly making shifts to strengthen to ties binding individual member states to the EU and the UK has been fighting those ties since the beginning because they were perceived to not coincide with British interests. In many ways this is correct, they conflict with the interests of the Tory elite who have a vested interest in reversing as many of the social democratic policies of the past as possible. Being tied to the EU is binding the UK to a regime of social democracy that frankly many in the UK are uncomfortable about.

Thus far the UK has been able to blackmail the EU into backing down or weakening most attempts to forge a pan-European federal state. I guess that has been a good thing for some values of good but it has also resulted in much slower advances on a host of civil rights issues.

The UK leaving could hurt the Single Market in the short term but the fundamentals are still pretty decent. On the political front however the UK leaving couldn't be better for those that want the EU to generate a more solid federal state. Less US Articles of Confederation and more US post Federalist Papers and Constitution.

The double bonus of course is that the UK will be forced by economic realities to accept membership in the EFTA and EEA so they'll still be subject to most EU regulations while also no longer being capable of gumming up the works.

The EU ministers are no doubt expressing shock and concern in public but behind closed doors they are probably expressing the opinion that this crisis if handled correctly could be the best thing that happened to the EU in a long time.

I guess too bad for the 67 million Britons though
posted by vuron at 8:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yeah, I think the Labour MPs that were willing to give Corbyn a chance to show his quality & take the fight to the Tories have seen enough & decided that he isn’t fit to lead. It’s not his policies that are the problem - it’s him.
posted by pharm at 8:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Well, Labour, whatever you do next better be fucking good.
posted by Artw at 8:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Unless they can change the voting rules, we will vote him back with a bigger majority. His views - actual beliefs - simply connect with so many people. He knows he has the numbers to prove it.
posted by Coda Tronca at 8:45 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, Labour, whatever you do next better be fucking good.

I don't know a lot about Labour, so this may sound dumb, but the sense that I'm getting is that "good" could here mean "not a circular firing squad". I admit this sense is somewhat informed by my history of watching the Democratic Party in action.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]



I guess too bad for the 67 million Britons though


I don't understand this sentence in the context of what comes before.
Bad for the British government for sure, which no longer gets a seat at the table and loses power.

But if the UK is as you put it compelled by economic realities to stay within the EEA, that's good for the people themselves - they get to keep the same workplace etc. protections (by being within the EEA) and also get to retain rights of free movement!

In fact, more workplace rights because EU integration accelerates from hereon - in your scenario! The benefits flow back to EEA members, such as citizens of the UK.
posted by plep at 8:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Alright here's how I think it will shape up. Everyone keeps kicking Article 50 down the road for as long as possible. The new Tory PM tries frantically to secure some kind of Norway Plus deal - the main objectives are securing single market access and passporting rights to protect the City. So free movement will have to be part of the deal, partly disguised by some points-based racist sprinklings falling on non-EU immigrants. In order to sell and legitimise the vastly shrunken Leave offer, the Tory PM then calls a general election and offers the punters a choice between that and what he or she will be hoping to present as sour grapes undemocratic Remain arguments from the opposition, assuming there's a functioning opposition by then. Labour then soaks up the anger of the marginalised voters in the north who treated the referendum as a referendum on globalisation, leaving the Tories masters of all they survey for the foreseeable future.

That's how I think it will go down.
posted by Mocata at 8:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


So Juncker just said that the people voted and the EU must respect democracy. Farage started clapping and Juncker asked why he was clapping, saying "that's the last time you applaud here" and then ripping into Farage asking "why are you here."

The exchange was depressing because it underlines how unsophisticated, unsubtle and unimaginative Juncker is—his response to [edit] Farage was the antithesis of cool, urbane and witty.
posted by My Dad at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


You mean complete indifference to the arsonists looking to burn down the UK connects with a majority of Labour voters?

Because from all appearances Corbyn abdicated any responsibility to lead or question the bullshit narrative being pushed by BOGO and Farage.

The Labour MPs have every reason to doubt his competency as the leader because to all appearances he's actually incompetent.

Having good beliefs simply is not enough to actually be a good leader. Labour needs both right now and frankly the bench looks a bit sparse.
posted by vuron at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


And oh, Murdoch thinks leaving the EU is a good thing.

Of course the old vulture still thinks it is. For him, the issue has only been about his power and influence.

Here's what Murdoch really thinks the difference between the UK and the EU is:
I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”
Spoken like a true oligarch.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [40 favorites]


David Allen Green offers a glimmer of hope. As he points out, oversight of Brexit has been handed to the Cabinet Office, and the Cabinet Office is where policies go to die.

From the Twitter buzz it sounds as if Tom Watson is about to be the next Labour leader. Mefi's own!

Of course, if there is a Brexit climbdown at this point, there's a serious risk that UKIP will end up as the next majority government in Westminster under the distorting effects of first-past-the-post. They just have to win the highest number of votes in any seat, remember, not a majority of votes overall, and if they steal enough support from the Tories and Labour over a "Brexit betrayal" that's entirely possible in too many places.

If the current Members of our venerable Parliament would very much like Britain not to slide into fascist dictatorship, they might think about passing a bill immediately to adopt proportional representation for all future General Elections and pledging never to go into coalition with UKIP. Reforming the House of Lords might also be a helpful.
posted by rory at 8:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Who the hell gets to be the official opposition now? Corbyn has 40 supporters. There a 176 Labour MPs without a leader. SNP has 54 MPs. Could a 176+SNP coalition lead questions to the PM tomorrow?
posted by popcassady at 8:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Britain's meal ticket? Food and drink at heart of referendum debate
Special Edition: Brexit - what does it mean for the food industry?
Breaking Point - "It feels as though this referendum has unleashed the worst in us. It has poisoned the kinds of conversation we have, and expanded the space in which the subtle and often explicit racism of the right can take root. This morning I woke up feeling as though I was being asked a question that I don’t—that many of us, now—don’t want to answer."
Here’s how Brexit may cripple Britain’s financial sector — and the British economy
Looking behind the Brexit anger - "One of the most succinct explanations for the political changes of the last four decades came from American political scientist Professor Alan Wolfe: "The right won the economic war, the left won the cultural war."
This is the equality paradox I wrote about some years ago. "
Brexit Voters: NOT the Left Behind
How Brexit Threatens to Turn the UK Into “Borisland”

more, at OMNIVORE
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Belief doesn't mean a lot if you don't have the skills to win elections and turn those beliefs into reality. I posted elsewhere that when I look at Corbyn, I am reminded of Obama vs. Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean. All of them wanted to be transformational candidates. All of them faced an extremely hostile environment* in the press and elsewhere. All of them made mistakes. But Obama had the necessary skills as a politician and person to recover from things like the 'clinging to guns and religion' remark, and more importantly to bring a huge swath of people, including people who were formerly or naturally hostile, to his side. If you can't do that, all the nice principles in the world mean nothing. Dean and Sanders never expanded their appeal beyond their narrow initial demographic.

Corbyn may very well be favored by those willing to pay to vote in internal Labour elections, but if he can't convince the actual voters, i.e. the people that the Labour MPs were elected by and accountable to, then he's deadweight.

* Anyone who wants to claim Obama faced a less hostile environment: A black man. With a Muslim name. And a foreign father. Seriously, the guy is the equivalent of Harrison Bergeron: so fucking good you didn't even fully notice all the sandbags he was wearing.
posted by tavella at 8:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


Yep Power and Access are the coin in which people like Murdoch deal in and Brussels makes trading in that coin difficult. Who does he put pressure to get deregulation favorable to his interests?

It seems like a lot of the elites backing leave are essentially those sorts of old school power brokers that don't know how to influence EU policy like they can UK policy.

No generations of Public school networks, no friendly phone calls to your local MP, etc. They just don't seem to know how to work the gears of state effectively or their influence is drowned out by the interests of dozens of other power brokers each with their own agenda.
posted by vuron at 8:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Corbyn may very well be favored by those willing to pay to vote in internal Labour elections, but if he can't convince the actual voters, i.e. the people that the Labour MPs were elected by and accountable to, then he's deadweight.
Since he's been leader they've risen in the polls, just now overtaking the Tories, and have won key mayoral elections in Bristol and London.
posted by Abiezer at 9:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Corbyn refusing to resign
posted by PenDevil at 9:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Christ on a tricycle, what the fuck is happening?
posted by Happy Dave at 9:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]


Unless they can change the voting rules, we will vote him back with a bigger majority. His views - actual beliefs - simply connect with so many people. He knows he has the numbers to prove it.

If they can't exclude him from the ballot he might well win it. But I'd be surprised if he won it by a bigger margin. We know from the last contest that he can attract Greens, SWP types and the like, young people who grew up with Blair as the chief baddie on the political stage, and disaffected older activists and voters outside the metropolis. But the referendum result suggests that he can't rely on the last group, and the third group will probably shrink thanks to young people being overwhelmingly for Remain. (Although social media embubblement might help him there.)

What if there was a soft left unity candidate on offer who kept the anti-austerity side of Corbynism but wasn't so shambolic and was able to work with the PLP? Would you go for that?
posted by Mocata at 9:04 AM on June 28, 2016


Ohh boy Corbyn gets to rule over a Rump Caucus.

I guess the 176 can join Sturgeon and presumably the Plaid Cymru and Liberal Democrats in forming a new party.
posted by vuron at 9:08 AM on June 28, 2016


Further to my revelation that Jill Stein supported Brexit in this archived post, and then secretly replaced the post with one claiming that she never supported Brexit, she (or a staffer) was on Facebook telling people to clear their cache !!!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [46 favorites]


But the referendum result suggests that he can't rely on the last group, and the third group will probably shrink thanks to young people being overwhelmingly for Remain. (Although social media embubblement might help him there.)
If I read you right and by "last group" you mean voters outside the metropolis who went 'Leave' in the referendum I imagine his more nuanced approach where he didn't pretend the EU was all sweetness and light will do him no harm, more so with the pro-Remain youth activists you'd think (as you say).
posted by Abiezer at 9:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


If they split now is he de facto not the leader of the opposition, just the leader of the Labour party?
posted by vbfg at 9:12 AM on June 28, 2016


Let's not forget that for the past 25 years conservative tabloids in the UK have relentlessly attacked the EU by feeding the public a daily serving of lies, distorted truths and exaggerations about EU policies (known as Euromyths). Things like "EU wants to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze"

That comment has been bothering me, and I finally have time to reply. It's a strange example to choose, and the "a few bad EU policies" angle has been relatively under-represented and ignored here as a way of explaining what the hell voters were thinking. According to what appears to be the relevant item on the Euromyths site, they did actually raise the minimum level of excise tax on booze. Also, there was some discussion about how bad binge drinking and other health problems related to alcohol can be. These may be, as is claimed, separate if not entirely unrelated items in the European process, but the press might be forgiven for confusing the two even if it is the Sun. Why would they have any minimum tax on alcohol, if not out of concern for its health effects? No other rationale is given.

Browsing through some other mythology, it comes across to me as full of arguments such as "yes we have regulations regarding the curvature of that type of fruit, what's wrong with that?"; "yes we very well might ban that thing you like, but it won't happen for a few years yet so what's your problem with that?"; "we're only discussing that it hasn't actually happened yet", and so on. Of course there are a good number of outright lies for them to refute as well, but there do seem to be a significant number of items dismissed as "myths" that contain levels of truth sufficient to make them almost credible.

Then there are the two recent examples of dumb EU rule-making that are so profoundly stupid and highly publicized that the whole world seems to know about them. They are not in any way "myths". There's the "cookie law" thing, which may be reasonably close to trivial, but is utterly ridiculous and has been seen by everyone who uses the Internet. It's especially annoying to the few people who actually care about such things and clear out their cookies regularly. The EU has made itself the punchline of an everyday joke, there; that can't have helped. And then the vaping TPD, wherein the EU are going to pass some sort of law making it illegal to sell the best and most popular kinds of vape equipment. I don't know how many people vape in the UK, but my guess is more than the 2% it might have taken to change the referendum result. And you can bet they all know about this and feel very strongly about it.

Naturally these failures of the EU are also failures of your national government which participated in the process and failed to stand up and fight against bad legislation to the extent that it could have done in an ideal world. Your home government has also passed all manner of nonsensical idiocy into law all on its own, though I'll not cite any examples as everyone is sure to disagree on exactly what falls into this category. It's a fairly large category though, for most people. It's sort of inevitable, for modern governments.

Although it's a fairly stupid idea, if there was a referendum on whether to immediately abolish the British parliament, with no thought given as to what would replace it, that might also get a surprisingly large level of support.
posted by sfenders at 9:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]




If they split now is he de facto not the leader of the opposition, just the leader of the Labour party?

Oh, that would be... exciting.
posted by Grangousier at 9:21 AM on June 28, 2016


Christ on a tricycle, what the fuck is happening?

Does this help?
There is a now mismatch between what Corbyn and his supporters believe; what the majority of Labour MPs believe; and what the wider community of traditional Labour voters believe.
More analysis here.
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


As a one of Europe's many long-time British residents, here's something I've been suspecting but not wanting to admit: it may be disastrous for the UK but Brexit is great news for the rest of the EU.

We need to clean the house, guys. No wonder the delegates are playing hardball.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


If I read you right and by "last group" you mean voters outside the metropolis who went 'Leave' in the referendum I imagine his more nuanced approach where he didn't pretend the EU was all sweetness and light will do him no harm, more so with the pro-Remain youth activists you'd think (as you say).

Yeah in some ways he was wise to maintain some ambiguity - like Theresa May. But then she wasn't the leader of her party. I dunno, I would guess that lots of those older immiserated voters went for Brexit for the same reason they went for Corbyn: to kick the bastards in Westminster in the teeth. That might play out differently for him in a general election in which he'd have to take an anti-Brexit stance or lose the cities and university towns. Also his hinting during the campaign that the only thing he likes about the EU is free movement of labour probably didn't play well with them.
posted by Mocata at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016


Oh, that would be... exciting.

I think you may mean interesting.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I live in central London. I think it could get exciting.
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on June 28, 2016


But, yes.
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Neo-nazi stickers have gone up all around the Clyde and Glasgow Green in the last few days. Edinburgh too. One reply to the first tweet warned to be careful when taking these down as they sometimes put razor blades under them. I was already thinking about whether to start walking around my neighbourhood with a spray-can to paint out any racist graffiti I spot; might add a window-scraper as well.
posted by rory at 9:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


why did anyone link to Guardian for Brexit Live I really don't even want to do anything else today now.

That left side ticker is SHOCKERS all the way down. Save for later? How can I?
posted by zutalors! at 9:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


What if there was a soft left unity candidate on offer who kept the anti-austerity side of Corbynism but wasn't so shambolic and was able to work with the PLP? Would you go for that?

No. Paul Mason (who was Remain) said at the Corbyn rally last night:

"We need 100 potential new MPs from all these young people, all these women, all these members of ethnic minority groups, disabled people, gay people. Get some people in there who suffer the hardships of working class life."

Deselections needed.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:32 AM on June 28, 2016


So get rid of democratically elected representatives and replace them with people who will do what you tell them?

Now, that's a coup.
posted by Grangousier at 9:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


i reiterate the comment made by someone a few days ago

this is a shit episode of black mirror
posted by lalochezia at 9:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


Yeah, first the pig, then the Tetris movie, now this. Brooker, you fuck.
posted by Grangousier at 9:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Neo-nazi stickers have gone up all around the Clyde and Glasgow Green in the last few days. Edinburgh too.
We've had Britain First stickers ("End Immigration - Start Repatriation") on lampposts around here for years. Is this a new thing there?
posted by winterhill at 9:37 AM on June 28, 2016


(although this isn't particularly a Brooker prediction, is it?)
posted by Grangousier at 9:37 AM on June 28, 2016


this is a shit episode of black mirror

I'm just looking forward to gouging out my ocular implant so I don't keep getting all these news updates, and then going to beat up the Farage clone I grew in the bath.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Grangousier: Entryist Trotskyism in operation. The demonstrations outside the homes of anti-Corbyn MPs and their offices are part and parcel of the technique: All deniable of course & done at arms length from the official leadership.

The Labour party is going to split asunder at this rate. Jesus wept.
posted by pharm at 9:38 AM on June 28, 2016


Going into this referendum, everyone assumed it would be political suicide not to do everything to follow the will of the electorate. My hope, and in fact my expectation, is that after everyone has been forced to contemplate the consequences of Brexit, things have changed; a new Prime Minister will express their hope that the Scottish Parliament will give consent, they won't give consent, and the Prime Minister will claim their hands are tied and we can all forget about Brexit. After all, we don't want to undermine Scottish democracy!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


So get rid of democratically elected representatives and replace them with people who will do what you tell them?

Deselection is done by the constituency party members and in this case would be a response to the actual coup (and months of plotting) by the MP in question.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:40 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Do people seriously believe that there are enough Trotskyists in the UK to have a serious effect on the Labour Party?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


And if they don't want to do it, will parties of enthusiastic Corbyn supporters go along to encourage them?
posted by Grangousier at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016


We've had Britain First stickers around here for years. Is this a new thing there?

Well, I've lived in Edinburgh 15 years, and walked and cycled around it a lot, and I've never noticed anything like those National Action Scotland posters. Never seen any Britain First stickers, either.
posted by rory at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just coming back to the thread now, after a few hours down on the more-or-less normal-seeming Oxford Street, and feel like I have to say something about that very upsetting video from the Manchester tram; apologies if conversation has well and truly moved on.

What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.

The reactionary science-fiction writer Jerry Pournelle was perennially fond of observing that "nowhere on Earth is ever more than three meals away from riots." He meant, I believe, to express the deep tenet of the conservative worldview that holds that we're all basically animals who will rape, split and savage one another given the slightest chance, animals that need the guidance of a firm hand to maintain order among us.

There are some who will interpret videos like this one as evidence for Pournelle's point of view. We haven't even missed any meals, here in the UK, but in the wake of the referendum result the lid has clearly come off of some very, very ugly feelings.

There are some who will see this and think, yes, maybe the time is right for the firm hand. There are no doubt even some who believe this was the point all along.

As it happens, I don't believe that, any of it. I think just the opposite: that when the shit hits the fan, we come together and we protect one another. I think there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to support this notion, that in all cultures and in all times and places we more often have acted in solidarity, have defended and cared for the vulnerable, and have faced down oppression. I don't just think that, I know that, and I know it happens every day. I just wish I saw more of that happening here.

Please, please, my Britons, forgive me for soapboxing, but if you see this kind of thing happening around you, or even beginning to take shape, take whatever steps you can (that are consistent with your safety) to intervene, and to safeguard and protect the vulnerable. I know this is who you are. I know this is the strength that has gotten you safely through times far worse than these. We need that strength now. Thank you.
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Dammit Iceland, the brackets may not have allowed for it - but an England vs. Germany UEFA final would have been delicious. Sigh.
posted by rosswald at 9:45 AM on June 28, 2016


Pope Guilty: There are enough of them to take advantage of inchoate popular movements in order to get what they want & that’s all that matters if you do it right.
posted by pharm at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2016


So get rid of democratically elected representatives and replace them with people who will do what you tell them?

Now, that's a coup.

This is ridiculous, it's a normal if rarely invoked process for a democratic party under our system. How many of these MPs do you think are there more on personal merit than as candidates for the Labour Party?
posted by Abiezer at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


an England vs. Germany UEFA final would have been delicious

Frankly I'm glad we are spared the awful tabloid headlines that would have generated.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dammit Iceland, the brackets may not have allowed for it - but an England vs. Germany UEFA final would have been delicious. Sigh.

Wouldn't have been possible. Germany and England were on the same side of the draw.
posted by popcassady at 9:48 AM on June 28, 2016


And if they don't want to do it, will parties of enthusiastic Corbyn supporters go along to encourage them?


I don't know, but the possibility of some people behaving in antisocial ways is not enough to suspend the democratic processes available to party members.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:49 AM on June 28, 2016


Quote that makes Americans feel better about themselves: Yeah I voted for Brexit. What's EU?
posted by mule98J at 9:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Semi-final then ;)
posted by rosswald at 9:49 AM on June 28, 2016


"No... Deselections needed."

OK but what happens then? Corbyn returns as leader without enough PLP backing to form a Shadow Cabinet. Deselections start and he recruits a bunch of new MPs from Momentum. A general election is called and - because the voters love divided parties, and because experience counts for nothing in running a national campaign, and because there isn't a national crisis on or anything, and because the political geography totally favours Corbyn - he romps home?
posted by Mocata at 9:51 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is ridiculous, it's a normal if rarely invoked process for a democratic party under our system.

A party that’s had a sudden influx of well organised, apparently single issue members? This *is* classic Entryism: stir up a popular movement which you control by dint of being more organised than anyone else and willing to put the time in, use it as leverage to enter a political group that you can control from the inside by influencing the committees that actually make the crucial decisions at a time of crisis. In this case, the MP selection committees are ideal: if you can control the shortlists, you can control the MPs put before the people, even if the people would prefer a different candidate. If you win a general election, then congratulations! You’ve won a huge amount of power for a very small cadre of people. Of course, that latter bit has rather been the sticking point for this tactic in the UK historically - Militant didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory on that front.

So excuse me if I don’t see how this is a victory for democracy - quite the converse.
posted by pharm at 9:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


But that's the nature and express purpose of a mass membership party (and it was the Blairites who brought in the three quid thing). It's certainly more democratic than sinecures for life for central office appointees.
posted by Abiezer at 9:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Farage's speech in the European Parliament was astounding. The most interesting part is towards the end, where he argues for free trade, acknowledges Europe probably won't give it to Britain, and then blames the Europeans in advance for "cutting off their nose to spite their face."
posted by My Dad at 9:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Are there any current Labour MPs that are not JCo and would vie for leadership who have a pro immigration stance, are anti-Brexit and anti-privatisation/pro re-nationalisation?

Anyone who jumps on the 'tough on immigration' bandwagon will only accelerate Britain's spiral into being a tax-haven neo-liberal basket case.
posted by asok at 9:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


A general election is called and - because the voters love divided parties, and because experience counts for nothing in running a national campaign, and because there isn't a national crisis on or anything, and because the political geography totally favours Corbyn - he romps home?

Yeah well, this is the magical thinking part of the agenda. Still, never let a good crisis go to waste! Maybe this time they can make sure things go so badly for the working class that they will all see the light and vote for them in droves. That’s guaranteed not to push them into the arms of the fascists after all.

(and it was the Blairites who brought in the three quid thing)

Sure, and it was a dumb idea then & this is why.
posted by pharm at 9:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


we'd all be fine if could have just had a time machine, and distracted that fuck farrage's parents with a wind-up-hitler doll at the key moment of conception
posted by lalochezia at 9:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Brooker did predict something like this.
posted by BAKERSFIELD! at 9:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


and it was the Blairites who brought in the three quid thing

I thought it was Ed Miliband?
posted by Mocata at 9:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


To people on the continent the EU is much more than a mere market.

This.

I've lived in Finland since 2009, with a year away in NL. Now I'm back and settled with a properly registered business and all the paperwork. I'm working on the path to becoming a full citizen. I want to pay my taxes, as I mentioned to eMigri when I applied this time around, and I am choosing this over my then valid US green card, Singapore work permit, NL residence card, and third world passport. I don't want to see it break down due to unethical media and greedy politicians playing with the feelings of the "peasantry" for instant gratification.
posted by infini at 10:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


I thought it was Ed Miliband

Apparently there are only two types of Labour member. The True and Good and the Evil Blairites, who plot the downfall of the T & G in the shadows.
posted by Grangousier at 10:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm quite excited to learn there are 200,000 Trotskyists in the UK who all joined the Labour Party after Corbyn became leader.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


As countries go it's the Trotskyest
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Coda, are you being willfully obtuse.

No, there aren’t 200,000 Trotskyists. But there are a committed band of people who see a great opportunity when it’s put right in front of them: It doesn’t really matter whether Momentum was launched by them in the first place or just ripe to be taken over, what they represent to this bunch is leverage.
posted by pharm at 10:09 AM on June 28, 2016


The Trots are in the Tory party being crazy accelerationists and assuming historical materialism will play out in the correct way.
posted by vbfg at 10:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now that would be some deep cover vbfg.
posted by pharm at 10:14 AM on June 28, 2016


I don't think most of Momentum is made up of far left entryists, I think they're mostly well meaning people who are rightly annoyed by the gulf between Westminster politics and people's experience, but don't have a well developed sense of what's doable, partly because loads of them are pretty young and formed their political identities during the Iraq adventure and so think of the right of the Labour Party as the ultimate baddies in a way that people who grew up with Thatcher and Major in charge don't.
posted by Mocata at 10:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


But there are a committed band of people who see a great opportunity when it’s put right in front of them: It doesn’t really matter whether Momentum was launched by them in the first place or just ripe to be taken over, what they represent to this bunch is leverage.

Fair enough, but that's not the same as pre-endorsing the chorus of media noise that we will soon hear about 'intimidation' from these activists. Stella Creasy's Syria bombing intimidation, breathlessly reported by The Guardian et al, turned out to be a march to her constituency office that ended with post-it notes being stuck to the door, by a priest among others.

And I am old enough to remember pickets!
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:21 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well, I suspect we're in this mess because of a kind of Tory entryism, but it's not Trotskyist, it's ... whatever ... neoliberal. Their Corbyn was Thatcher. A lot of the strategies are there, but in a more sedate way.

Have Trotskyist incursions ever actually achieved anything when they've got power? There was a lot of it about in the 80s, but did they get anything done? It only ever got reported when they fucked things up, but it's true that the media would do that. Was there ever anything else?

For anyone who doesn't remember the British left in the 80s, the Socialist Worker's Party are essentially a People's Front of Judea reenactment society.
posted by Grangousier at 10:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not sure if posted already but seemingly they got that little wank nozzle in Manchester pretty early on.

https://twitter.com/gmpolice/status/747813973475606528

(Actually before I got out of bed this morning, and posting this is the last thing I do before leaving the office).

I believe the description was "English kid in a baseball cap. Probably looks a bit of a twat".
posted by vbfg at 10:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think debating Trotskyism is really a derail, because Corbyn is a basic left social democrat in most of what he's proposing. That's how far to the right everything has gone in the last 30 years: he puts forward a programme no more left wing than the Labour Party did a few decades ago and yet is hailed as ultra-left universally.

He would not agree that 'there is no parliamentary road to socialism' but the fact that basically nobody commenting here would agree with that phrase also indicates how much further to the centre everything has shifted.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Qui Bono from this madness?

The 3-quid membership provides trivial open access influence with the Official Oppositon to her Majesty's government, to a party that has long been opposed by Very Serious and Powerful People.

You bet there are LINOs who are tory/other agents involved in this. cf. All of british history, security state, old boys club, press barons, etc etc.

You bet there are Blairites that are using this as an excuse to swing the labor party back in their direction.

Does that mean there aren't Entryists from the far left fringes? No. Of course there are.

Does that mean that most of momentum isn't "mostly well meaning people who are rightly annoyed by the gulf between Westminster politics and people's experience". No. Of course they are.

For all of Corbyn's ideological worth, he needed to be prepared for this. The history of the left demands you are prepared for wreckers from within and without.

Good leadership tries to take into account attempts to obfuscate, corrupt and befuddle; and sets up actions and structures and mechanisms that do this and keeps your team on-side. We need good leadership. I don't know where that comes from at the moment.

We're all fucked if it can't be sorted out soon.
posted by lalochezia at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


That video from the tram (warning: cursing, bigotry) is chilling, and firm evidence of behavior that a lot of right wing nationalists had been brushing off as unsubstantiated anecdote. Please, tell the citizen who was verbally assaulted on a train and made to feel unwelcome in his own country that this is all about giving Brussels the finger. Please, tell him that he shouldn't be angry at racists, and that he should work harder to band together with them. Please, tell him that the entire campaign for Leave wasn't predicated exactly on enabling and reifying exactly that type of abuse.
posted by codacorolla at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2016 [32 favorites]


Yeah when you've grown up in the Blair-Cameron era and you never experienced Thatcherism at it's worst you really have no idea what sort of dark timeline you are risking in the current environment. To them Blairites are the enemy because they've never known fear under the dark lord of Mordor.

It's the sort of thinking that is evident among some of the millenials in the US that maybe Trump wouldn't be that bad and he'd alert people to the dangers of neoliberalism and even if it's bad it wouldn't be an eternal winter and there would be a glowing progressive spring at the end of it. Allowing Clinton in would just result in a slow decline because she's totally a neoliberal shill or something.

That seems to be the thinking of some of the Trotskyists among Labour in the UK. There is so much fear about the Blairites stabbing people in the back that there is more or less tunnel blindness as to the nature of the Tory-UKIP threat.

I guess if you have never seen fascists in charge you are willing to risk fascism but at least for some people risking a rise of fascism is never acceptable especially in a people that behind their polite exteriors seem perfectly willing to concede that maybe the Fuhrer had some good ideas.
posted by vuron at 10:40 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


No, there aren’t 200,000 Trotskyists. But there are a committed band of people who see a great opportunity when it’s put right in front of them: It doesn’t really matter whether Momentum was launched by them in the first place or just ripe to be taken over, what they represent to this bunch is leverage.

Left politics in Britain really is like that Life of Brian sketch.
posted by My Dad at 10:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


As one of the many recent Labour members, I don't regret voting for Corbyn and I genuinely wish he could continue as leader - but, in my opinion, he can't. At this point, with his (actions and) inactions leading up to the referendum, his inability to work with the PLP, and the baggage he brings from Momentum's sometimes unpleasant tactics, I just don't believe that he can lead the party to a general election win.

Personally I'm hoping Tom Watson runs. I think he can bring the younger, idealistic New Corbynites and the union old guard together, and that's the only way I see us not falling apart as a party.
posted by A Robot Ninja at 10:45 AM on June 28, 2016


I don't have a quarrel with the broad outline of what Corbyn would like to do in power. I just can't see how anyone can think he's ever had the slightest hope of getting hold of power. He's so obviously out of his depth that you start looking for alternative explanations of why people support him so passionately. I think that's why people go on about Trots and so on. Well, that and the SWP placards at his rally yesterday.
posted by Mocata at 10:46 AM on June 28, 2016


And I am old enough to remember pickets!
and power cuts... currently reading this (v good) book and understanding / remembering those times better.
posted by andrewcooke at 10:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


There's more than ample justification for thinking that Corbyn stands a better chance against the Tory-UKIP threat than the serial failures from the centre/right of the party. His style plays pretty well with a lot of voters not just party members. The no confidence crowd have no magic candidate who would do better and they'll lose a lot of the membership support essential for door-knocking and leaflet-pushing if they impose one. I see one tip, Angela Eagle, has already had a dressing down from her CLP.
posted by Abiezer at 10:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


This video of Corbyn with his mic on saying "not sure this is a good idea" is exactly like a scene from The Thick of It
posted by pocketfullofrye at 10:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, Angela Eagle is one of the Wirral MPs. We're in the next seat over, and have the joy of being represented by the loathsome Frank Field, who stuck the knife in early, and to the surprise of absolutely nobody. She's going to get some stick for this, but Frankie may have saved his arse from the 'Kippers by backing Leave.
posted by skybluepink at 10:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


So what's the justification? That he won the leadership ballot and didn’t lose as many council seats as expected?
posted by Mocata at 10:56 AM on June 28, 2016


Left politics in Britain really is like that Life of Brian sketch.

It's a universal truth.
posted by biogeo at 10:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's so obviously out of his depth that you start looking for alternative explanations of why people support him so passionately.

It's ridiculously easy. He just talks and believes what he says. He can't be bothered with media bullshit. He walks the streets to campaign on behalf of marginalised people. He acts from a moral sense of justice where everyone else accepts that nothing else but the market can matter ever again.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I also voted Corbyn. I think what is happening to his leadership is wrong and driven by many wrong motives.

What is abundantly clear is that the fastest route to an effective opposition is that he goes away.

I am not sure I would be unhappy with David Cameron as leader of an effective opposition right now, because effective opposition in the face of what is about to happen is the single most important political requirement thus far of my middle aged lifetime.

("Thus far". I leave space for the resource wars of the future, which these events soundly demonstrate that the whole of mankind has already lost).
posted by vbfg at 10:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Putting Corbyn in as leader is exactly the same as voting for Leave: a thoughtless drive to disaster.
posted by No Robots at 10:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


So what's the justification? That he won the leadership ballot and didn’t lose as many council seats as expected?
In a way, yep, in as much as despite the whole circus since his appointment turns out he isn't ballot box poison, and after a referendum where one interpretation of the leave vote in former Labour strongholds is a big fuck-off to Westminster bubble politics he's not seen as being part of it (even though he has been of course). Plus if he won it would make a lot more positive difference than if, say, Dan Jarvis did, so he gets some leeway there.
posted by Abiezer at 11:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't know that the Labour party as personality cult is going to achieve anything, though. Even Thatcher tolerated people who disagreed with her.
posted by Grangousier at 11:05 AM on June 28, 2016


Coda: I don’t actually think Corbyn himself *is* Trotskyist. But a bunch of the people swarming around him are & they smell an opportunity.

Happy to drop it at this point though.
posted by pharm at 11:06 AM on June 28, 2016


He put them in his shadow cabinet (though to be fair he can't fill one with people who agree with him) and wanted to tolerate them. I'm not arguing this line because I think he's personally the be-all-and-end-all, I think it's for the long term good of the party if his membership-backed style wins out over the managerialist style of the bulk of the PLP.
posted by Abiezer at 11:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Right, but it's an insurmountably big if, because even if he did ok in the heartlands - which I don't think he would - he's still not going to play in the marginals and Scotland seems gone for the foreseeable future. A majority of people who voted Labour at the last election want him gone. If people with access to the internal numbers thought he had even a reasonable chance you wouldn't see the entire spectrum of the PLP trying desperately to turf him out.
posted by Mocata at 11:09 AM on June 28, 2016


A friend heard Max Hastings speak yesterday and he, Hastings, was asked what he thought of Boris Johnson. Apparently he said something like "he's a great journalist but would be worse than Berlusconi as PM, and if he becomes PM we'll know it's the moment when the country's gone down the pan". He said something similar in 2012 - "I would not take Boris's word about whether it is Monday or Tuesday".
posted by paduasoy at 11:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


For some reason there's this idea is that James Schneider of Momentum did poorly in an interview with SkyNews. I thought he did well.
posted by My Dad at 11:12 AM on June 28, 2016


If people with access to the internal numbers thought he had even a reasonable chance you wouldn't see the entire spectrum of the PLP trying desperately to turf him out.
I straight out don't think that's the case, I think it's a factional political fight and they'd rather lose under a right winger than win under him. But anyway, I've banged on enough so leave this to others for a bit.
posted by Abiezer at 11:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


His views - actual beliefs - simply connect with so many people. He knows he has the numbers to prove it.
Jeremy Corbyn seems an eminently nice and principled person.
However : -
Everybody knows politics is a contact sport. (Barack Obama The New Yorker, May 31, 2004)
posted by adamvasco at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't see how public infighting helps at a time like this. If there had really been a grassroots public outcry against Corbyn after the referendum, then perhaps. It just looks to me as though Labor is doomed no matter what for the foreseeable future.
posted by maggiemaggie at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


So long as Scotland is locked up by the SNP is there actually a realistic possibility of a Labour government anyway?
posted by Rumple at 11:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


He just talks and believes what he says.

Flipside: he's dogmatic and inflexible.

He can't be bothered with media bullshit.

Flipside: he's crap at presentation.

He walks the streets to campaign on behalf of marginalised people.

Flipside: he goes to meetings in support of West Papuan independence when he needs to be out there making the case for his future government.

He acts from a moral sense of justice where everyone else accepts that nothing else but the market can matter ever again.

Flipside: he speaks in a tone of sanctimonious petulance when things don't go his way, and his supporters imagine that not a single other person in the party isn't a market fundamentalist.
posted by Mocata at 11:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [18 favorites]


Only with the support of the SNP, formal or otherwise, unless they get an overwhelming majority in England.
posted by pharm at 11:19 AM on June 28, 2016


There are times when it's appropriate to take a principled moral stand and accept the bruises no matter what comes.

However if that's what Corbyn is doing he is sure as hell doing a shoddy job of it.

He neither took a particularly compelling role in arguing for or against Brexit, it's like he was content and watch and see either way because nobody actually expected Leave to win. Even now when the reality has sunk in and Britons are going "Holy Shit! what are we going to do?" he doesn't seem capable of actually articulating a clear plan for the future.

I'm sure he's a wonderful guy with nice ideas about how to improve the long term outcomes for the country but in the short term the UK is in crisis and he looks clueless. Granted so does everyone else but apparently being completely clueless is popular with conservative voters.
posted by vuron at 11:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's a good sized crowd at a Pro-EU rally in Trafalgar Square despite rain and the organizers of the event calling for its cancellation due to the surge in last-minute interest with no plans for security and other logistics.
posted by zachlipton at 11:22 AM on June 28, 2016


I don't know that the Labour party as personality cult is going to achieve anything, though. Even Thatcher tolerated people who disagreed with her.

This is people disagreeing with Corbyn not tolerating him, not the other way round, and I'm struggling to understand the contortions necessary to portray it any other way.
posted by Dysk at 11:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah Abiezer I'll bow out too, I don't want to sound more snarky than I mean to be and it was nice having a civilised argument with you.
posted by Mocata at 11:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Everybody knows politics is a contact sport.

If Corbyn used that phrase people would link it to offensive Tweeting or shouty demonstrations by his supporters.

Flipside: he goes to meetings in support of West Papuan independence when he needs to be out there making the case for his future government.

That's exactly the kind of thing the media snarked when he campaigned for groups like Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, as far back as 1984.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The talk of the Good Friday Agreement becoming a dead letter makes my blood run cold. I suspect it's a sobering thought to the majority in Northern Ireland who voted Remain as well.

Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.

More likely for NI to remain in the UK and thus be yanked out of the EU. Have the last 16 years of peace and cooperation taken deep enough root?
posted by whuppy at 11:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


That's exactly the kind of thing the media snarked when he campaigned for groups like Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, as far back as 1984.

Hang on, you're not Abiezer... Well sure but, apart from gay rights being a more pressing domestic issue than West Papuan independence, he wasn't leader of the party then. Even my friend who does a lot of teaching and campaigning about it, and who was at the meeting, was like, "What the hell are you doing here? Go and do your job!" (Though not out loud because she's polite.) I'm not disputing that he's great at being a campaigning backbencher, just that he's any good as party leader.
posted by Mocata at 11:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.
Huh. That's actually a kind of intriguing possibility: an independent Northern Ireland, part of the Commonwealth and thus still officially under the British crown, but part of the EU and thus having an open border with the Republic. I don't think unionists would go for it, but it's a proposal.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:35 AM on June 28, 2016


I think right now the primary problem for Northern Ireland is that the Republic doesn't really seem to want them and their domestic bullshit thank you very much.

If the political factions in NI could be replaced by something other than Sinn Fein and the DUPs then maybe people could get somewhere but identity politics seems to be the name of the game.
posted by vuron at 11:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tom McTague, Alex Spence and Edward-Isaac Dovere at Politico.eu: “How David Cameron Blew It: The behind-the-scenes story of a failed campaign to keep Britain in the European Union.”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:44 AM on June 28, 2016


This is people disagreeing with Corbyn not tolerating him, not the other way round

I was referring to the calls for deselection, which I admit I wasn't clear about. When Michael Heseltine stormed out of Downing Street, they didn't try to get him bounced as MP for Henley.

The thing about the membership... what worries me is that I do think there's a fundamental incompetence there, which has been put into the spotlight by the Referendum and the Vice documentary, and I do think there's the projection of too much hope onto one person who might not explicitly betray them in an Obama sort of way, but who will fail them at some point. That's the problem - there's too much riding on a single individual with an increasingly evident lack of skills in many of the crucial areas of governance. And there's a huge groundswell of nominal support, but it's unclear how many of them are going to get involved with the running of the party, and whether they can communicate with the wider community.
posted by Grangousier at 11:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think right now the primary problem for Northern Ireland is that the Republic doesn't really seem to want them and their domestic bullshit thank you very much.
I think the primary problem is that they had an accommodation that everyone could pretty much live with, and now a bunch of assholes in England and Wales have screwed it up. I don't think that a United Ireland is seriously on the table. But I also don't think anyone wants to go back to the days of checkpoints at the border.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]




Fair point, vuron. I deliberately skirted the issue of NI joining the Republic, figuring the idea of an independent Northern Ireland was already unrealistic enough.

So let me recast the question again: Can DUP/Protestant/Unionist identity politics be somehow separated from actually belonging to the UK?
posted by whuppy at 11:58 AM on June 28, 2016


Only with the support of the SNP, formal or otherwise, unless they get an overwhelming majority in England.

It's hard to imagine them winning in England based on the referendum results, unless they somehow square the circle of being Pro-Europe and Anti-Immigration, since 1/3 of their membership voted to leave, probably higher when discounting Scottish and NI Labour numbers..

Would people tolerate a coalition with a separatist party? Didn't happen despite serious motivation when Blocc Quebecois were sending a huge delegation of MPs to Ottawa.
posted by Rumple at 12:03 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


This video of Corbyn with his mic on saying "not sure this is a good idea" is exactly like a scene from The Thick of It

Transcript and background here. What an utter omnishambles.

He does not remotely give the appearance of a confident leader committed to navigating the fact that his party just walked en masse and looks more like he's a little kid who's climbed up to the top of the big slide and is afraid to go down.
posted by zachlipton at 12:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


For people concerned about what to do if witnessing racist incidents, this online pamphlet

WHO, IF NOT YOU?
How you can intervene when witnessing racist assaults


gives some advice that I think is useful.
posted by Azara at 12:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]


The astonishing thing is not that Corbyn lost the no confidence vote. That was expected. The astonishing thing is that he has chosen to defy his own MPs by refusing to resign. That is extraordinary.

Walter Bagehot had it right in 1867 when he warned of the dangers of appealing to the wishes of the wider party membership over and above the wishes of the parliamentary party:
The feeling of a constituency is the feeling of a dominant party, and that feeling is elicited, stimulated, sometimes even manufactured by the local political agent. Such an opinion could not be moderate; could not be subject to effectual discussion; could not be in close contact with pressing facts; could not be framed under a chastening sense of near responsibility; could not be formed as those form their opinions who have to act upon them. Constituency government is the precise opposite of parliamentary government. It is the government of immoderate persons far from the scene of action, instead of the government of moderate persons close to the scene of action; it is the judgment of persons judging in the last resort and without a penalty, in lieu of persons judging in fear of a dissolution, and ever conscious that they are subject to an appeal.
The Labour Party is now in uncharted waters. The only person to foresee this situation was Joe Haines, in an article from last January, The Micawber Syndrome, in which he urged Labour MPs to depose Corbyn while they had the chance:
Corbyn’s total vote was just over 251,000; in other words, approximately one in every 183 people on the electoral register (46 million) voted for him, or 0.5 per cent. In relation to the next general election, that is the only statistic that matters and it should be compared to the nearly 9.35 million who voted Labour last May. The strength of the party lies in the nine million-odd, not the 251,000, and that figure will be dissipated at our peril.

It is the Parliamentary Labour Party that represents the Labour vote in Britain, not the 423,000 people, including the ragbag of “registered supporters”, who voted in the leadership contest. And it is up to the PLP to do something about it. Theirs is the true legitimacy. The parliamentary party is the most powerful force in the labour movement.
I hope and pray that Corbyn will heed the calls to resign. 'Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!' But I suspect we may be on the verge of a major party realignment. Who knows, we might even end up with two Labour Parties, with Corbyn as a new Keir Hardie at the head of a reincarnated Independent Labour Party.
posted by verstegan at 12:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


So let me recast the question again: Can DUP/Protestant/Unionist identity politics be somehow separated from actually belonging to the UK?

DUP and other Unionists, no: it's literally the point of their existence. For Protestants (not every one is the other) mostly no.

Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.

There are many of us now who feel more Northern Irish than British or Irish. I've had many conversations with people from polar opposite backgrounds in every way who say they would be ok with an independent NI. But there is little likelihood of that actually happening. If it was to be mooted then the EU membership might be as good a reason as any to suggest it. But it won't be. The DUP are the leading party and they voted Leave. They are right wing conservatives. You will prize the Union out of their cold dead hands.

On the other side, if Republicans call for a border poll on a United Ireland, which is allowed under the Good Friday Agreement, there has to be a clear change in opinion which indicates one is necessary and Villiers and Foster have already ruled it out. And some of us would be torn on how to vote. It's not necessarily a X number of Y religion will vote Z scenario anymore like it was in my parents' day. So there's no guarantee even all the Catholics/Nationalists would vote for Unification (Republicans would, obviously), but maybe some Protestants would vote for it if it was really a choice between EU membership and being British (but not many). So it really that's not on the cards. Anyway the Republic can't afford to absorb another 6 counties.

I think right now the primary problem for Northern Ireland is that the Republic doesn't really seem to want them and their domestic bullshit thank you very much.

I know you're just writing pithy words on a screen but quite a lot of people died for our domestic bullshit, including family members, and there are a lot of shitty things which happen here still whether it's reported it not, and feel free to ask me how I know. There are fragile ties that bind and it's a real concern that all of this is going to begin an unraveling. So just bear in mind it's not abstract political philosophising for some of us right here in the room.
posted by billiebee at 12:22 PM on June 28, 2016 [54 favorites]


Who knows, we might even end up with two Labour Parties, with Corbyn as a new Keir Hardie at the head of a reincarnated Independent Labour Party.

Is the question "What would cause a permanent Tory supermajority in England?", Alex?
posted by Talez at 12:24 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Don’t. It’s bad enough as it is without people confirming my own forecasts of doom and gloom :(
posted by pharm at 12:28 PM on June 28, 2016


'Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!'

I was thinking about Leo Amery the other day when someone on my social media wrote, re Sturgeon/Brexit: 'Come on Nicola, speak for England!'
posted by Mocata at 12:32 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I understand your point, it's just that the continued failure to support a process of Truth and Reconciliation in Northern Ireland seems destined to keep partisanship between Unionists and Republicans at a high level.

Yes there isn't active fighting like there was during the Troubles but it seems like way too many of the players in Northern Ireland (and let's be honest Britain) are determined to keep much of the past hidden in a way that prevents people from moving on and building a united Northern Ireland whether it's in the Union or reunited with the Republic.

I just don't see there really being a way that NI can effectively put pressure on Whitehall to remain in the EU when there are such deep divisions within Northern Ireland and the dominant factions seem to be the most extreme.

Even if there was a consensus to depart from the UK which we all know there isn't it's not clear that NI could be a particularly viable economic state.
posted by vuron at 12:33 PM on June 28, 2016


Being pro-Europe won't benefit any political party now. That horse is out of the barn. The UK (whatever is left of it) will be out of the EU for the foreseeable future.

What Labour and any other party of the left needs to do now is sell the electorate the independent UK they thought they were voting for, not the neoliberal one the Brexit leaders have in mind. The one that actually funds the NHS with the millions no longer going to the EU. The one that puts people before corporations. One that builds on and maintains whatever progressive policies the EU gave them but lets them do it themselves in Westminster instead of having them imposed by Brussels.

What about the racism and intolerance, you say? I believe that ugliness was and still is greatly amplified by Farage et al for political leverage. The people are angry, justifiably so, and the Brexit leaders gave them a convenient, but ultimately wrong, target for that anger: foreigners. If the left can somehow re-channel that anger toward the real cause of people's suffering: the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires, they'll gradually let go of their bigotry - especially if things are made better for them economically and they no longer feel so angry and ignored.
posted by rocket88 at 12:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Thank you for this thread, its an education.
posted by infini at 12:40 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


The simple way you can show solidarity with immigrants. Effective, meaningful, and particularly pleasing for those of us with punk-rock roots.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


Being pro-Europe won't benefit any political party now.

Except for the SNP, the LibDems, and possibly whatever party falls out from the other side of this current Labour dispute. 16.someodd million voters voting Remain makes for a rather stout political constituency if a party can organize them. The horse is out of the barn less because of Europe and more because the "official" Remain camp did a terrible job of saying "hey, this pack of lies you've been sold about the EU being a boogeyman that's the source of all of your problems isn't really all that solid of a foundation, here's what is actually going on." When John Oliver and Patrick Stewart can come up with a better message than actual politicians who run the place, well...
posted by fireoyster at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's just struck me that if whoever is left can get them to settle for the Norway model, we'll have most of the things we had except the Tories won't be able to push the EU further to the right, and we won't have representatives in the EU parliament that no one bothered to vote for anyway, except Farage who, when he turned up at all, was a national humiliation. Straws and grasping, but it might be the first glimmers of acceptance.
posted by Grangousier at 12:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Most of that money that was promised to go to the NHS would still go to supporting the Single Market though. Yes they might not be formal payments to the EU for membership in the EU. Furthermore EEA members do not get funding from the EU from development funds.

At least one comment has indicated that being cut off from EU funding would absolutely devastate agriculture in the UK as subsidy payments form the majority of most farms income. I understand that UK has largely abandoned an agrarian lifestyle but it does seem like rural farmers in the UK do have fairly significant political power.
posted by vuron at 12:46 PM on June 28, 2016


> If the left can somehow re-channel that anger toward the real cause of people's suffering: the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires, they'll gradually let go of their bigotry - especially if things are made better for them economically and they no longer feel so angry and ignored.

This is going to sound sarcastic, but I really mean it with utmost sincerity: Good luck with that.

Given the examples of "the left" in action that I've seen so far, here in the US and in Labour's implosion so far (I mean, all they had to do was to sit back and point to the Leave promises being declared "no longer operative"), I'm really not hopeful. And yet, if that doesn't happen, we're staring at the rise of outright fascism.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:47 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh, well, back to depression again. Thanks, vuron.
posted by Grangousier at 12:48 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just mean that any talk of ignoring or reversing the referendum result now is both a waste of breath and political suicide. Accept that it's happening and make it happen in the best way possible instead of continuing to fight it and insulting anyone who voted for it.
posted by rocket88 at 12:49 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I understand your point
Not sure that you do.

Yes there isn't active fighting like there was during the Troubles
There's some.

it's just that the continued failure to support a process of Truth and Reconciliation in Northern Ireland seems destined to keep partisanship between Unionists and Republicans at a high level

This is a huge and thorny topic, and a derail to this thread. Welcome to Memail me.

it's not clear that NI could be a particularly viable economic state.

You don't say.
posted by billiebee at 12:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


What Labour and any other party of the left needs to do now is sell the electorate the independent UK they thought they were voting for, not the neoliberal one the Brexit leaders have in mind... The one that puts people before corporations...

That's Jexit and serious discussion of it may be coming, so long as the stock market/pound continue to come back to normal. But Corbyn still hasn't come back to his original anti-EU Bennite principles, having gone through whatever contortions to support Remain.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:57 PM on June 28, 2016


If Corbyn had had the gonads to come out for Leave in the first place & let his party campaign as they pleased then I’d have an awful lot more respect for him. As it is, he appears to have decided that his best course was to deliberately sabotage the Remain campaign from the inside which is, well, I just don’t have the words frankly. But lets start with completely dishonest, mendacious & conduct unbecoming of the leader of a national party and work up from there shall we?
posted by pharm at 1:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Given the examples of "the left" in action that I've seen so far, here in the US and in Labour's implosion so far (I mean, all they had to do was to sit back and point to the Leave promises being declared "no longer operative"), I'm really not hopeful. And yet, if that doesn't happen, we're staring at the rise of outright fascism.

Not to make this about the US, but the angry Trump supporters and the angry Sanders supporters are angry for the same reasons. They're just listening to two very different politicians telling them who's to blame. I suspect the situation in England and Wales is similar.
Even if you can't make their anger go away, you can at least steer them in the right direction.
posted by rocket88 at 1:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


If Corbyn had had the gonads to come out for Leave in the first place & let his party campaign as they pleased

There's not much, really, to support the idea that he sabotaged the Remain campaigning. In fact his 'the EU is not all sweetness and light but stick with it for now' was an example of the non-hysterical politics that many of us educated types say we prefer. But I agree most definitely it's another facet of the tortuous mess and I'm by no means uncritical of the choices he's made recently (just not prepared to tolerate the coup plotters, who have been exposed by the press as having plotted it all two weeks ago regardless of the ref result).
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


My daughter is a dual citizen and is quite upset about Britain "leaving the Wii U"
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:17 PM on June 28, 2016 [18 favorites]




What, apart from refusing to show up to any of the meetings, half the public events & his flat refusal to share a platform with Cameron on this epochal decision because that offended his socialist instincts despite the clear polling that it would make a huge difference amongst wavering Labour supporters?

Yes, clearly he was very committed to the Remain campaign. Pull the other one, it’s got bells on.
posted by pharm at 1:19 PM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


(edit cause -> campaign)
posted by pharm at 1:22 PM on June 28, 2016


Fair enough, he wasn't that bothered about staying in the EU.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:29 PM on June 28, 2016


What Labour and any other party of the left needs to do now is sell the electorate the independent UK they thought they were voting for...

They thought they were voting for an independent UK?
Help me out here, my history is a bit rusty. Hasn't the UK been independent, like, forever? Isn't it usually other countries that declare independence from the UK? (Or at least try to, like Scotland.)
Or is this just another lie inflicted on unsuspecting subjects and half the country will wake up any minute now, discovering that the UK is, actually, an independent country already? Kind of like when they discovered that the Brexit will not keep them immigants out of the country and they will still need to pay the EU membership fee if they want to keep trading with the EU?
posted by sour cream at 1:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


"The people are angry, justifiably so, and the Brexit leaders gave them a convenient, but ultimately wrong, target for that anger: foreigners. If the left can somehow re-channel that anger toward the real cause of people's suffering: the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires, they'll gradually let go of their bigotry"

If you haven't already noticed, the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires are already hated, yet bigotry seems to continue at pace.

It wasn't just the Brexit leaders— that's letting everyone off far too easily. I've been hearing variations of "coming over here, taking our jobs" for as long as I can remember, from both Labour and the Conservatives because they just have to mention the terrible asylum seekers or immigrants "flooding our country" to explain how they'll fix everything right after the next election.

They've build up this momentum of danger and hate for so long that now that it's truth in many peoples minds and they're still too afraid (apart from Scotland) to say we welcome immigrants with open arms to our country, they work hard, make us more productive and make the UK stronger.

If you're looking for someone to blame, forget the banks— that's piddly shit and look at the political parties instead.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:37 PM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


the coup plotters, who have been exposed by the press as having plotted it all two weeks ago regardless of the ref result).

is there a cite for that? Thx.
posted by progosk at 1:44 PM on June 28, 2016


Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum (13th June).

Other sources report that there were several competing coup plots and that these idiots even ended up fighting each other in their haste to rescue the people. Angela Eagle, possibly now the Guardian's 'front runner', has been formally asked by her constituency to back Corbyn instead.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


As an outsider looking in, I'm finding that the most disheartening thing about all this is the notion--shared by both Left (hopefully and fearfully) and Right (with the same delusional overconfidence that brought them here in the first place) --that somehow the EU views Brexit as an event requiring a mere reboot and restructuring of UK-EU relations that, once all the messy domestic business gets settled, will proceed apace in the same rational, diplomatic tenor that characterized previous negotiations.

It will not.

The UK (as a rational nation-state actor rather than a collection of citizens) has radically broken faith with Europe, in a manner that precludes ANY sort of rapprochement Britain seems to assume will naturally occur. And now, whatever small reservoir of goodwill among the MEP membership that might have helped smooth the transition was probably pissed away today by Mr. Farrage's utterly despicable behavior in Brussels. There is already a hardening of attitudes occurring (one need only look at the tone change in Chancellor Merkel's comments between Thursday and today to see it). This growing antipathy, reinforced by the utter shambles the British government has thrown itself into (who will negotiate? And, given the blithe manner in which the UK has thrown away so many previously hard-fought agreements, does anyone even have the legitimacy to do so?), signals-- to me at least--that the UK is in for much much more pain and dislocation than even the more pessimistic sectors of British society have wanted to heretofore admit.
posted by Chrischris at 2:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


When commentators try to calculate the negative impact that Brexit will have on Britain, they tend to talk mainly of exports and imports, financial markets and military muscle. People have so far talked little about the asset that most normal Europeans most admire most about Great Britain: the soft power that comes with cultural clout. Even those Germans who complain that Britain was never truly part of the European family anyway will concede that most of their compatriots don’t know who the French equivalent of James Bond is, or the Polish Mick Jagger. via
posted by infini at 2:16 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Cameron speaking at the EU live now.
posted by zachlipton at 2:18 PM on June 28, 2016




Cameron speaking at the EU live now.

The Sun has a question about immigration.

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.
posted by Talez at 2:31 PM on June 28, 2016


Cameron's now saying that Parliament shouldn't fail to invoke Article 50 and points out that Parliament voted overwhelmingly to hold the referendum. That language can't be a mistake; I wonder why he's so willing to root out and rip off any political cover the government might have for unwinding this. (I suppose one's answer to that question depends on how one views pressing on with exit or finding a way to not exit.)
posted by fireoyster at 2:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ian Welsh: Leave Won Because It Has a Better Story
Leave’s story is as follows:
1.Your life sucks and you do not have a job, or a good job.
2.There are a lot of immigrants. They have jobs and many of them have good jobs.
3.If there were less immigrants, you’d have those jobs.

Leave’s story is coherent. It has defined the problem and proposed a solution. The solution won’t work, but Leave says, “We got a problem, and we can fix it, and your life will be better.”

Remain’s story is this:
1.Your life is as good as it’s going to get.
2.Leaving won’t help, it will make your life even worse.
3.Your life will continue to get worse, regardless of whether you leave. “Remaining” will simply slow down the process of your life getting worse.

Now, Remain’s story is true. “Life is a shit sandwich, but you don’t want to eat a bigger shit sandwich sooner than is absolutely necessary.”

That narrative is not going to win against a lie which says: “We can make your life not a shit sandwich”.
It’s Still the Iraq War, Stupid. - "No rational person could blame Jeremy Corbyn for Brexit. So why are the Blairites moving against Corbyn now, with such precipitate haste? The answer is the Chilcot Report. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [31 favorites]


Knowing Cameron, in his mind, this is probably still all about sticking it to his enemies in his own party. We are ruled by petty shitbirds.
posted by skybluepink at 2:37 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Juncker and other EU leadership briefing now. He's quite clear that there will be no negotiation until there is notification under Article 50. Now even he's marveling that the leavers had no plan and hopes the British Government figures out what the hell it wants and triggers Article 50 as soon as possible because nobody wants to wait months.
posted by zachlipton at 2:43 PM on June 28, 2016


Dutch PM says first step is Article 50 then negotiations, ball is in UK court but EU can not sit still.
posted by PenDevil at 2:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


>Now, Remain’s story is true. “Life is a shit sandwich, but you don’t want to eat a bigger shit sandwich sooner than is absolutely necessary.”

That narrative is not going to win against a lie which says: “We can make your life not a shit sandwich”.


I guess it's too late now—Remain lost, and Labour's current implosion means there is no one left to pick up the pieces—but isn't a missing part of the argument that, "you're life's a shit sandwich, it's going to get worse... we have a plan for improving your life without exiting the EU?"

The first thing to promise is massive Keynesian reinvestment (the new federal government in Canada is more than willing to go down this road, whether Canada in fact needs it or not, and the whole world is watching) in public services, notably public housing, post-secondary education (make it free), childcare, transportation, all that stuff.

Is any party in Britain arguing for deficit spending?
posted by My Dad at 2:53 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hey, things might not be so bad. The UK is out of the EU and might lose Scotland and N. Ireland, but they might get back Hong Kong!
posted by FJT at 2:53 PM on June 28, 2016


That narrative is not going to win against a lie which says: “We can make your life not a shit sandwich”.

This is also a big part of my admittedly vague understanding of the 1980 Reagan campaign.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is also a big part of my admittedly vague understanding of the 1980 Reagan campaign.

Reagan was more of a "Carter has made you a shit sandwich by increasing the prime rate to 20% and he's letting those Persian Ayatollahs walk all over him! I'll fix it all!" Then he gracefully rode the funds rate going down, surfing the increase in growth and economic output you naturally get by cutting a prime rate from 20 to 12%, and declared it a "New Morning in America".
posted by Talez at 3:06 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ok but isn't this more like "the same Thatcherites who served you or your parents the shit sandwich in the first place now are lying to you that they'll make your life less shit by shutting down the sewage treatment plant?"
posted by zachlipton at 3:14 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


The leave vote seemed to me to have a simpler message, which was "we will make everybody's life a shit sandwich, so at least you'll have to suffer too." If you're hurting and the people in power aren't helping, then sometimes your strongest instinct is to make them hurt as well.
posted by phooky at 3:18 PM on June 28, 2016


No, that really wasn't there. I mean, maybe there are people who are happy about that in retrospect, but it wasn't a part of the propaganda. Any warnings of negative repercussions were dismissed as Doom and Gloom and scaremongering.
posted by Grangousier at 3:20 PM on June 28, 2016


The first thing to promise is massive Keynesian reinvestment (the new federal government in Canada is more than willing to go down this road, whether Canada in fact needs it or not, and the whole world is watching) in public services, notably public housing, post-secondary education (make it free), childcare, transportation, all that stuff

The trick is that you have to do this in a way that doesn't divide the have-nots from the have-slightly-more-than-nots. Otherwise the people who are barely doing okay on hard work and going to get resentful of the "lucky" poor getting all this free stuff they don't and you're back to square one.
posted by middleclasstool at 3:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has urged Britain to prevent further incidents of xenophobic abuse in the wake of the vote to leave the European Union, and to prosecute perpetrators.

The British prime minster used his last Brussels summit to tell Angela Merkel, François Hollande and other European heads of government that anxieties about unrestricted freedom of movement were at the heart of the decision by Britons to reject the EU.
posted by infini at 3:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Is any party in Britain arguing for deficit spending?

The Remain contingent were slightly hamstrung - they could hardly argue that people's economic woes were due to the seven years of pointless austerity budgets and kleptocratic selling off of the country's assets to David Cameron's rich mates, because it was the self-same people who responsible for all of that who were now running Remain.

Equally, while Corbyn could have come out and said "It's not the EU responsible for the destruction of the working class, it's these fuckers in the New Labour and the Tory party", that would have split the Remain faction and the resulting infighting would probably have been just as damaging to the campaign as a whole.

How do you spin "it's not immigrants' fault" when the answer to "whose fault is it then?" is "ours, and the people we're sharing a platform with"? You can't, and the shifty dissembling results have turned everyone off.
posted by tinkletown at 3:25 PM on June 28, 2016 [32 favorites]


Ryanair will not deploy new aircraft on routes to and from the UK next year, following the Brexit vote, and will instead focus on the European Union.

The Irish low-cost airline, will "pivot all of our growth into the European Union," chief executive Michael O'Leary told the Wall Street Journal.

Ryanair carries more than 100 million passengers a year and UK routes account for 40 million of those travellers.

Ryanair has its largest hub at London's Stansted Airport.

The airline's shares have fallen more than 23% since the United Kingdom voted on Thursday to leave the European Union.

Mr O'Leary, one of the most vocal business leaders campaigning in favour of continued EU membership, had repeatedly warned he would cut investment in Britain if it voted to leave

posted by infini at 3:28 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


“We did not discuss the possibility that the UK will not invoke article 50, and I consider this an impossibility.” - Merkel
posted by vbfg at 3:35 PM on June 28, 2016


It’s Still the Iraq War, Stupid. - "No rational person could blame Jeremy Corbyn for Brexit. So why are the Blairites moving against Corbyn now, with such precipitate haste? The answer is the Chilcot Report. "

That blog post claims that "supporters of Israel" who are "defined by their enthusiasm for bombing campaigns that kill Muslim children" and are "100% of those who have promoted accusations of anti-Semitism" are the ones opposing Corbyn. Not only are they bloodthirsty but they are using "manufactured" accusations of antisemitism for their own advantage: "100% of those accused of anti-Semitism were active opponents of the Iraq War." This argument actually comprises half the blog post - the remaining bit about Chilcot is half or less.

Modern antisemitism is essentially a conspiracy theory about malevolent power wielded by Jews. Craig Murray buys into that hook, line, and sinker. Like so many antisemites he's inoculated from reality: any Jewish concerns are merely promoting a manufactured row about anti-Semitism. The quotation marks are his, implying that antisemitism isn't even a thing.

That whole blog post is a mess, and its author is a kook with what looks like a sad history. He and his racist conspiracy theories shouldn't get any attention, particularly here.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [30 favorites]


Maybe the EU is just using reverse psychology, as you would on a child:

"Oh, you want to leave the EU? Well good, because we're making you!"
"What!? No! I'll never leave the EU! Nnngggh~!!"
posted by gilrain at 3:46 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


tinkletown: "How do you spin "it's not immigrants' fault" when the answer to "whose fault is it then?" is "ours, and the people we're sharing a platform with"? "

This is precisely the crux of my questions from earlier up-thread. I still don't fully understand why the general public isn't more angry at the actual UK government itself? If things are so messed up, how did the Conservatives increase their lead and land a majority just a year ago? The usual theory is that if the people in a democracy are dissatisfied, they'll elect different people with different policies. But that doesn't seem to have happened. There seems to be plenty of anger to go around but it doesn't seem to me (again, as an outsider) that enough has been directed at the Conservatives who've been in charge for six years and pushed (imo) quite brutal austerity policies.
posted by mhum at 3:48 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm prepared to believe (for the sake of argument if nothing else) that Corbyn is inadequate as a leader. But are any of his opponents within Labour in a position to offer a real alternative to the neoliberal, pro-austerity consensus? Because that's what's fuelling the rise of the racist right, and however much middle ground there is to be won from the Conservatives after the referendum, Labour isn't going to win the next election by offering yet another iteration of business as usual.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thank you Joe. Indeed, folks are already coming out of the woodwork to claim that the no confidence vote is a Zionist plot.
posted by zachlipton at 3:51 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


that'll teach me to vet my links better, thanks Joe.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


> This is precisely the crux of my questions from earlier up-thread. I still don't fully understand why the general public isn't more angry at the actual UK government itself?

1) Iraq

2) The crash

The narrative for both belong to Labour. Specifically, a particular wing of Labour that had steered it in a new direction. They were easily portrayed as a metropolitan elite at the time, but the Tories were so toxic, in large part because of their divisions over Europe, that they won landslides. That set of swing voters in the middle were okay and stuck with them.

Iraq was a knock right from the off, but with the crash too it was fatal. The middle had been hurt and rejoined the Tory tribe.

It gets stranger though, because recall that they were in coalition with the Lib Dems first time round. The Lib Dems were punished for Tory policy by being associated with it. People angry with the Lib Dems for Tory policy used strategic voting to punish Lib Dems in the last election, which meant that in a lot of seats they voted Tory. Meanwhile, UKIP was eating both natural Labour support and urging the Tories to the right on Europe.

So we went full Tory. And now, by the will of the people, they have nothing to be divided about.
posted by vbfg at 4:03 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


That said, is there any merit in the argument that the Chilcot Report is relevant? Not because a cabal of Zionists are trying to force the issue by paying people off or whatever deeply harmful nonsense people are peddling today, but because it brings up a lot of bad memories and exposes an old divide between the Blairites and the "true left?" Or is this line of thinking stupid and it's all just brexit brexit brexit?
posted by zachlipton at 4:05 PM on June 28, 2016


Jesus, with the anti-Semitism. I wish it weren't such a predictable response to, well, anything.
posted by OmieWise at 4:05 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I choose to believe that 'a simple cartoon [Vox]' is simply the OP referring (accurately) to Vox.
posted by waxbanks at 4:07 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mhum, I don't know why they aren't angry. They haven't voted for anybody else because there hasn't been anybody different to vote for - prior to Corbyn, the Labour Party abstained on bills such as the Welfare Bill (instead of, you know, opposing it).

The options were Tories or ersatz-Tories. Look as Cleggmania - as soon as there was the merest whisper of an alternative, people leapt on board.

Or on preview, what vbfg said.
posted by tinkletown at 4:13 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to call for Tony Blair to be investigated for war crimes in the wake of a damning Chilcot report into Britain's involvement in the Iraq War. So yes the Chilcot report is slightly relevent for those wondering about the coordination of the resignations in the Shadow Cabinet.
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 PM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


But are any of his opponents within Labour in a position to offer a real alternative to the neoliberal, pro-austerity consensus?

But that's what's so worrying - put all your money on one man like that and when he fails, he brings the whole project down with him. The worries about his competence are that the chances of failure are almost certain, and that will be it for left-wing social democracy for another generation. And his movement has become so insular that when they set Lynton Crosby loose on them, he'll have them for breakfast. He'll have them for a pre-breakfast aperitif.

I don't like the idea of always keeping one eye open to see what Lynton Crosby will do, but that beast is out there. There's no point in ignoring it.

I'm sorry, as a bit of a lefty I usually agree with my Twitter feed, but it's gone full-on Dave Spart.
posted by Grangousier at 4:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Muslim Council of Britain (yesterday) reported 100 incidents of hate crimes following the referendum.

The scary question is how many of these incidents are really attributed to the referendum vs the kind of thing that has been happening all along and often gone unreported?
posted by zachlipton at 4:29 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


is there any merit in the argument that the Chilcot Report is relevant?

His argument is that even without the Brexit debacle, there would have been an anti-Corbyn revolt of such magnitude that the Speaker would have been justified in recognising someone else as Leader of the Labour Party in the House of Commons. Really? And that the point of this hypothetical revolt wouldn't be to silence Corbyn (which would be impossible) but to ensure that when Corbyn criticised the long-departed ex PM Blair, he did so as merely a private MP, albeit one recognised by the Labour Party itself as its leader in Parliament. This would be, he thinks, "as traumatic as it was for the hardliners of the Soviet Communist Party when Khruschev denounced the crimes of Stalin."

Yeah, well, the guy's a kook. Still, I'm trying to imagine what impact it would have had if this clownfest wasn't going on. It's very likely that both pre-Corbyn Labour and the Tories would have liked to have buried the report, but suppose Corbyn used all his personal gravitas and presence to deliver a ringing denunciation of those feckless leaders who brought the UK a war it neither needed nor wanted.

My mental image is a tweedy guy standing near the despatch boxes, bleating about a terrible tragedy. A few "hear hears" from behind him mostly outweigh the uncomfortable looks from many of his colleagues. A clip appears on the news ... a photo in The Guardian ... the rest is silence.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:33 PM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Thanks, tinkletown and vbfg, for the background. I guess coming from a US and Canadian political context, I've become more used to the idea of political sentiment as a pendulum swinging between left and right. One side gets power, pushes a little bit too far in one direction, then the electorate tilts back to the other side. The exact endpoints of the pendulum may shift over time, but you're still presented with two, somewhat opposing views. If the mainstream political parties in the UK have become rather more uni-polar, that may leave the average voter fewer outlets for recourse. I guess I hadn't appreciated exactly how entrenched the (presumably) New Labour faction remained within the PLP (although maybe this shadow cabinet revolt is a manifestation of that?)
posted by mhum at 4:43 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Someone posted to Pornhub a video of Boris Johnson speaking after the referendum with the title "DUMB BRITISH BLONDE FUCKS 15 MILLION PEOPLE AT ONCE," to the seeming approval of Pornhub. No actual porn in either link.
posted by zachlipton at 5:07 PM on June 28, 2016 [59 favorites]


The depressing thing is that at the moment I think Jeremy Corbyn might be the most competent leader in either the Labour or the Conservative parties. (The two most competent leaders at present are of course Sturgeon and Farage). He was the most convincing leader in the election he stood in (the lowpoint being Liz Kendall staring at a computer screen while spouting platitudes pushing Andy Burnham having his parents say he was a good person into second).

The obvious candidate was Hillary Benn, of course, but either Corbyn knifed him skillfully (Tom Watson's plan?) or he really was caught leading the coup - either way he's in the wilderness.

Who can Labour offer right now who's better than Corbyn? If they can't they'll get Corbyn again.

For that matter who can the Tories? Both sides of their party have lost credibility.
posted by Francis at 5:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the Twitter buzz it sounds as if Tom Watson is about to be the next Labour leader. Mefi's own!

I know this conjecture was posted a while ago now, but it seems to have gone largely uncommented on that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is an (inactive) mefite, so I'll just highlight that here.
posted by zachlipton at 6:12 PM on June 28, 2016


What are the odds of David Miliband coming back?
posted by Flashman at 6:21 PM on June 28, 2016


it seems to have gone largely uncommented on that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is an (inactive) mefite

His one FPP fulfills my expectations of an MP.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


What are the odds of David Miliband coming back?

He's my boss's boss's boss now PLEASE DON'T TAKE HIM
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:57 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


So all Labour needs now is anyone reasonably non-incompetent and not anti-charismatic to replace Corbyn as leader in the next: "Sorry about all that bother, Let's Reunite EU!" election campaign?

Could that work?
posted by ovvl at 7:16 PM on June 28, 2016


So all Labour needs now is anyone reasonably non-incompetent and not anti-charismatic to replace Corbyn

Justin Trudeau, I guess?
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


he's a Liberal, more's the pity.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:42 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Activity from baggymp:
How to win the Labour Party?
Shall I serve my constituents well and develop strong ties with influential interests via demonstration of competence and ability and mutual aid? Or shall I wait for a crisis brought on by opportunists and demagogues that threatens to fracture the whole of the UK -- possibly all of Europe -- and then carpe diem? Both? Other? [more inside]
posted by notyou at 7:46 PM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


The United Nations has confirmed that the UK's Austerity policies breach the UK’s international human rights obligations. Now, how many of you want to blame the EU? Aw, forget the EU, get out of the UN, now! Oh, wait...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:47 PM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Even if there were an obvious leader on either side (any of the many sides, I guess) it wouldn't change the fact that the UK is now in a very weak position. Even if it could delay triggering Article 50 indefinitely, it's hardly likely to have any further power in EU deliberations. The UK is like a spouse who has moved out of the family home and rented a flat somewhere. Maybe s/he doesn't want to get a divorce, maybe s/he is having second thoughts. The situation has changed, though, and wishing won't restore the status quo.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


he's a Liberal, more's the pity.

But also he has passable French, I think, which could be important for the next PM...
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Refusing to negotiate until article 50 is definitely the strong move for the EU negotiators.

At this point the referendum pretty much makes trying to ignore the result political suicide so let's be honest short of some arcane parliament procedure there really isn't a whole lot left to do other than push the button.

The power brokers in Brussels are in a win - win scenario.

England cannot afford to lose access to the financial passport, it's an absolutely critical element to the UK's status in financial markets. France and Germany have been trying to promote Paris and Frankfurt as alternatives to London but increased banking regulation limits the opportunities for growth. Furthermore the US firms have liked the ability to set up subsidiaries in London as a way of doing business throughout the EU.

Scenario 1-
UK accepts EEA because of pressure by financial firms
UK is forced to accept lots of EU regulations that they would've previously been able to block
Financial firms in the City are still strong but many of their competitive advantages vis-a-vis the continental banks disappear since they are forced to accept tighter banking regulations

Scenario 2-
UK goes full nativist
Banking interests abandon the City in droves most moving to establish increased presence in Paris and Frankfurt
Increased economic growth in the EU from capturing much of the UK's current economic growth engine
Crushing nationalist dissent against the EU
Never having to deal with Farage ever again

It's not really shocking that Junckers, Merkel, etc are taking a hard line stance. Taking a hard line plus the fall out from Brexit seems to have weakened the power of nationalist parties in many of the EU states because people that might've been willing to push a hardline against Brussels now see the consequences in the UK. At this point in time I don't even think that it's a negotiating tactic, this is the type of thing you do when you know that your opponent has basically exposed their position and has basically no strategy for recovering the initiative.
posted by vuron at 8:24 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


I know that trading away the entire finance industry seems like a bit much but you don't understand, these are magic sovereignty beans.
posted by XMLicious at 8:46 PM on June 28, 2016 [28 favorites]


At this point the referendum pretty much makes trying to ignore the result political suicide [...]

Step 1: Appoint a commission to study the problem, recommend strategies, identify bodies needed to implement changes.
Step 2: Wait for the result.
Step 3: Appoint people to the bodies identified in Step 1.
Step 4: Wait for these bodies to report.
Step 5: Get in a fight about the makeup of the bodies or their reports. Go back to Step 1.

Keep going until there's a good reason to say that the referendum has been overtaken by results - e.g., UKIP gets its arse kicked or something. Next election, run on a no-Leave platform. If you win, fine. If you lose, watch the other party run through the same delaying tactics while you snipe from the sidelines.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


as has been said elsewhere (upthread?), muddling through is pretty much the most british way to get by things.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ahh, maybe the EU is based upon admiralty law instead of common law so all that Parliament needs to do is submit some strange paperwork to the EU so they can redeem their strawman.

Basically instead of sending millions to Brussels suddenly the UK would be able to access secret bank accounts controlled by the Gnomes of Zurich giving all British citizens of Anglo-Saxon or Norman descent some astronomical sum of money.

After that the UK be free to send back any EU national they want as well as anyone of non-European heritage.

QE2 would even be free to reclaim her role as Empress of India.
posted by vuron at 9:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


QE2 would even be free to reclaim her role as Empress of India.

After the news that Ian Paisley is encouraging everyone who is eligible to get Irish passports, uh, I guess all bets are off.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:06 PM on June 28, 2016


Keep going until there's a good reason to say that the referendum has been overtaken by results - e.g., UKIP gets its arse kicked or something. Next election, run on a no-Leave platform. If you win, fine. If you lose, watch the other party run through the same delaying tactics while you snipe from the sidelines.

As the EU, what, listens to Girl From Ipanema? How, how... I mean, what?
posted by haapsane at 9:15 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Cambridge don (and national treasure) Mary Beard writes here:

When my college wants to make any change to its statutes, it demands that there is a two thirds majority of those present and voting. I am told that the same is true in some Trades Unions, and that a two thirds majority in both houses is required to change the US constitution (with similar rules in other legislatures). This might seem like a bit of built in conservatism, and may be it is. But it does something really important: that is, ensure that there is a real head of steam, and a real majority, behind big and often irrevocable changes.

As she goes on to say, and as I also said in the previous thread, somewhere, it is *very* odd that we are all making such a fuss about a 52% share of a ~70% national vote. That is not a mandate for major constitutional change. Other far smaller organisations do not consider that a mandate. Why on earth should the British government?

There are indications that it will not.
posted by motty at 9:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


I note that David Allen Green/Jack of Kent has a simple but compelling solution:

The 2016 Abolition Act
1. Other than for the purpose of giving effect to this Act, all events in 2016 shall be deemed to not have happened.

2. The year 2016 is abolished.
posted by valetta at 9:43 PM on June 28, 2016 [38 favorites]


What are the chances that one or both Labor/Tories collapse in the next few weeks?
posted by humanfont at 9:44 PM on June 28, 2016


What are the chances that one or both Labor/Tories collapse in the next few weeks?

Happening now. Regardless of the weird mutant hell child that is spawned from dual sunderings left and right, ain't nobody gonna float article 50. So it's gonna hang there, dangling in the wind on a thread until everyone forgets it's there, and prays nobody is dumb or crazy enough to make it fall in the meantime.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:56 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


oh shit, I just realized. This REALLY IS 20X6
posted by rifflesby at 9:56 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


That Taibbi article is crap. He complains that:

NYU professor and self-described "prolific thought leader" Ian Bremmer just called Brexit the "most significant political risk the world has experienced since the Cuban Missile Crisis," likening it to a literal end-of-humanity scenario.

Um, the result of the referendum could be legitimate, politically binding, and a catastrophe. All at the same time. Thought experiment: a Trump win in November that doesn't involve hanging chads.

My admittedly primitive understanding of democracy is that we're supposed to move toward it, not away from it, in a moment of crisis.

Say what you want about Jim Crow, but in places it had majority support! I wonder what sort of referendums could've been passed in the wake of 9/11?

Taibbi is smarter than this. Was he just up against a tight deadline or something?
posted by great_radio at 9:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


oops, on the rise of transnational fascism... not that it's all about money (or class ;) but thinking about spengler, to the extent that money and commerce help loosen, if not dissolve, the 'bonds of blood' so to speak, here's what fascism seems to offer:
Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you...
and some thoughtful tweets from noahpinion on how best to counteract growing fascism and whether racism-shaming as a tactic is counterproductive:
  • 11/...there are tons of [nationality] with racist attitudes who will fight against racism IF they have something stronger to believe in.
  • 12/Racism IS the enemy. It's at the core of fascism, which is the great evil we face. But "racists" are just humans, who can be persuaded...
  • 23/The alternative, I believe, is to *persuade* [nationality] who have some racist attitudes by appealing to forces *stronger* than racism.
  • 24/Those include a desire for a better future, a belief in the [country] as a nation, and the ideal of individual freedom.
or like edwardnh mentioned earlier: "People with rising incomes and a flourishing economy are not threatened by immigration."

which brings me back to quiggen (and judt!) on tribalism trumps neoliberalism:*
But just as the economic ideology of neoliberalism lumbers on in zombie form, so, until recently has the political system it supported. Insurgents of various kinds have gained support nearly everywhere, but the alternation between different versions of neoliberalism has continued.[1]

In 2016, all of this has broken down. Hardly anyone now believes in the assurances of the policy elite that they know what is best. It is clear that things have gone substantially wrong in the global economy. What is less clear is why things have gone wrong and what can be done to fix it.

On the left, the answer to the first question is relatively straightforward: the excesses of financialised capitalism have finally come home to roost... the benefits of globalisation had gone overwhelmingly to the top 1 per cent, or even the top 0.1 per cent,[2] of the population. On the other hand, the process of developing a coherent alternative has barely begun.

By contrast, the tribalists have a clear answer to both questions. The problem is not (or at least not primarily) to be located at the top of the class structure, among bankers and CEOs, but at the bottom, among immigrants and racial minorities who benefit from state protection at the expense of ordinary ‘people like us’...

[I]n the absence of something better, tribalist sentiment is only likely to grow. The great tragedy of the period since the GFC has been the failure of the left, broadly defined, to articulate a coherent alternative to, or even a clear critique of, the zombie ideas of neoliberalism. There are, to be sure, some signs of such an alternative, from Syriza in Greece to the Sanders campaign in the US, but so far none of these have been more than modestly successful. Nevertheless, if we are to avoid the dead end of tribalism, there is no alternative.[3]
so what's the 'better future' on offer? esp if/when...
The world's losers are revolting, and Brexit is only the beginning

maybe?
  • The Netherlands' Upcoming Money-for-Nothing Experiment - "Next year, 250 residents in Utrecht and a few surrounding cities are slated to participate in a government program testing out a universal basic income."
  • The Case for Unions to Support a Universal Basic Income - "How Andy Stern, the former head of the 2-million-strong SEIU, came around to the idea of giving everyone, even non-workers, a monthly stipend."
  • Does President Barack Obama support basic income? "The way I describe it is that, because of automation, because of globalization, we're going to have to examine the social compact, the same way we did early in the 19th century and then again during and after the Great Depression. The notion of a 40-hour workweek, a minimum wage, child labor laws, etc. - those will have to be updated for these new realities."
  • Chris Arnade: "Provide a process, other than an education in an elite school, that gives people meaning, solidarity, and value."
if elite technocratic neoliberalism has gone off the rails and the world is to avoid a descent into tribalism/fascism, then the 'technostructure' of who has control over and access to the money supply -- and the (public) goods and (basic) services it affords -- itself needs to be 'restructured' and its fruits more widely shared if the creative tension between liberal democracy and capitalism is to hold.

>We have failed to educate entire generations on how to think critically and evaluate the options before them with wisdom, and we have failed to design democratic processes that buffer us against impetuous choices when faced with perilously high-stakes decisions. And now, in this democracy, we will pay the price for that failure.

The Priority of Democracy: Dissent Is the Health of the Democratic State - "We live in big, complex societies, which means we are thoroughly interdependent on each other, and that we will naturally have different ideas about how our life in common should go, and will have divergent interests. This means that politics we shall always have with us. It also means that political problems are largely ones about designing and reforming the institutions which shape how we interact with each other..."

---
[1] like discussion on the vagaries of the phillips curve :P
[2] developing countries, namely china, have benefited as well but growing within (intra-) country inequality may be just as bad or worse
[3] yay! as someone who thinks of basic income and/or helicopter money (+the death of banks & the UK green party platform! among other things...) as practical (rather than utopian ;)

posted by kliuless at 10:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


As she goes on to say, and as I also said in the previous thread, somewhere, it is *very* odd that we are all making such a fuss about a 52% share of a ~70% national vote.

Canada has been through this before. It's relevant here because Canada's experience was informed and influenced by interpretations of international law and concepts of national sovereignty. After the Quebec referendum in 1995, there was an effort to prevent a "50 per cent + 1" formula from legitimizing any referendum to secede. The irony of Canada's 1999 Clarity Act (which I think might be referenced in upcoming Brexit negotiations, or any legal challenge to the British referendum), is that it makes the results of a sovereignty referendum more ambiguous; the decision is left up to "political actors."

My point is that while universities and colleges may have more rigorous and airtight governance, countries, being idiosyncratic in nature, do not.
posted by My Dad at 10:13 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Word on Radio 4 this morning is that Angela Eagle will be the unity candidate in the Labour Civil War and that the SNP may request that they are made the official Opposition today as they have the largest unified group of MPs.
posted by brilliantmistake at 10:42 PM on June 28, 2016


Here's a superb essay outlining the many mistakes made in the process of organising this referendum: Brexit Was A Con.
posted by motty at 10:55 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


I am told that the same is true in some Trades Unions, and that a two thirds majority in both houses is required to change the US constitution (with similar rules in other legislatures).

Not to make this about the US, but changing our Constitution is far more difficult than this. That's why things like membership in international bodies doesn't get put up to a Constitutional amendment. Americans don't make such choices directly; we elect people to do or not do such things on our behalf, without changing the Constitution.

Yeah, I linked to about.com. Every other site was unnecessarily verbose.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:58 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Word on Radio 4 this morning is that Angela Eagle will be the unity candidate in the Labour Civil War [...]

I know nothing about her but from the name alone I recognise that she is going to turn out to be a mystical superhero.

Now tell me that her Tory counterpart will be called Derek Darsted and I will sit back with a bag of popcorn.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:02 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


make their anger go away, you can at least steer them in the right direction.


Help me, here, because I have heard this talking point a lot and I would sincerely like to believe it. Can anyone cite a case in history where racist/nationalist rage has been successfully channeled into progressive goals. I'm drawing a blank, but it could be I'm focusing too much on pre-WW 2 Europe.
posted by frumiousb at 11:14 PM on June 28, 2016


I know that trading away the entire finance industry seems like a bit much but you don't understand, these are magic sovereignty beans.

It's attitudes like this that explain why Leave won and why they'd win again with an even bigger vote if the referendum was run again.

To your snark, much of the population replies: "The 'entire finance industry' you mention has only one reason to exist, and that is to literally steal everything and put it in tax havens. We want them gone and to do their stealing off someone else, but you tell us that this will only make things worse. We don't care, because a) it's morally wrong that they steal everything, and b) we have already had eight years of austerity since we gave them 500 billion in 2008, since when we have had politicians telling us it is going to hurt practically every time they open their mouths. Now we still have to listen to snark telling us we're stupid for wanting to eject the parasitic banks, along with one of Britain's most hated companies run by a megalomaniac psycho-capitalist, Ryanair. We'll take our chances, thanks."
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Word on Radio 4 this morning is that Angela Eagle will be the unity candidate in the Labour Civil War

Given that her constituency party officially supports Corbyn, it won't be too much of a problem for her to also ignore the result of the referendum.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:43 PM on June 28, 2016


we gave them 500 billion in 2008

And gave them 250 billion after the referendum, using the same unusual definition of "gave".

(or do folks in England always give back gifts after a while, or sign over enough assets to cover the gift's value before accepting them? that's a bit odd...)
posted by effbot at 11:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here's a superb essay outlining the many mistakes made in the process of organising this referendum: Brexit Was A Con.

Interesting indeed. The author contrasts the lengthy and meticulous preparation of a 600 page white paper in the run up to the 2014 Scottish Indy-ref - with the lack of anything remotely similar prepared by either the in or the out campaigns (beyond pamphlets and soundbites sprayed onto busses) . One upshot of this is that Scotland still has this plan that they could put into action following an IndyRef2. It does need some dusting off first: the motion passed by the Scottish Parliament yesterday, will help update the section dealing with the EU - and the SNP would not choose to re-do the same mistake of proposing a currency plan that is, in any way, contingent on Westminster's consent.

I remain utterly amazed the the combined scrutiny of parliament, industry, business and the global media failed to uncover the missing plans - and to thus point out that the referendum was taking place too early.
posted by rongorongo at 11:57 PM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Too big to fail!
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:03 AM on June 29, 2016


Coda Tronca—sorry, I live in the U.S. and am learning about all of this retrospectively, with much of my understanding coming from Deutsche Welle; there were definitely no Leave-voters who heard that from me before the referendum. If the London financial industry is actually the valueless beans, or worse is entirely parasitic, then I happily reverse my Jack and the Beanstalk analogy and you guys are the ones who got the cow, and Continental financial centers or wherever else it goes got the beans.
posted by XMLicious at 12:04 AM on June 29, 2016


Coda Tronca: "Too big to fail!"

I would say 64 million people qualifies a country as "too big to fail," yes.
posted by Bugbread at 12:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


So there we have it - the same argument used to defend the bailouts now being used to defend the suspension of democracy. At least there are some mainstream pundits like Larry Elliott who still note that:

"There are those who argue that globalisation is now like the weather, something we can moan about but not alter. This is a false comparison. The global market economy was created by a set of political decisions in the past and it can be shaped by political decisions taken in the future."
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:23 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Larry Elliott has always been the Guardian's Dr Doom. He's the one who predicted all sorts of terrible things would happen and things would never, ever get better right through the financial crisis. I take everything he writes with a large helping of salt (and since this is Yorkshire, bits).
posted by winterhill at 12:26 AM on June 29, 2016


I would say 64 million people qualifies a country as "too big to fail," yes.

Although one may have gotten that impression from that game against Iceland, I would say that the UK is far from failing, even if they complete the Brexit. They are not part of the Euro, so they can devalue their currency to their heart's delight.

Foreign-made goods (so pretty much everything) will be more expensive as will be overseas vacations and many people in the financial industry might be in for a career change, but that's still a far cry from "failing". Besides, taking back those jobs and relying more on nationally made products is one of the main points of the Brexit anyway, isn't it?
posted by sour cream at 12:27 AM on June 29, 2016


Has anyone got a cite for this referendum even having a 50% threshold? I couldn't find it stated explicitly in the referendum Act.
posted by grahamparks at 12:28 AM on June 29, 2016


Larry Elliott has always been the Guardian's Dr Doom. He's the one who predicted all sorts of terrible things would happen and things would never, ever get better right through the financial crisis.

For many Leave voters, they never did.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Might be worth noting the "Leave" bullet points:
A Vote to Leave takes back control
  • We stop handing over £350 million a week to Brussels
  • We take back control of our borders and can kick out violent criminals
  • We take back the power to kick out the people who make our laws
  • We decide what we spend our own money on
  • We free our businesses from damaging EU laws and regulations
  • We take back the power to make our own trade deals
  • We have better relations with our European friends
  • We regain our influence in the wider world and become a truly global nation once again

  • How this goes down ...

    Before the referendum, Cameron had no doubt that he could, if the vote was "Leave", pull the trigger on Article 50 as soon as the votes were tallied. He certainly could have. But, he having passed the decision to the next PM, is that now enough? Surely it should now be put to Parliament first? In a nonpartisan way, of course - a conscience vote - so that the fate of the government does not hang on the decision. This vote will certainly fail and the government's hands will be tied. Thwarted by the Perfidious Remainers! No, we can't call a snap election, because the government has not actually lost a confidence vote. More finger pointing and hand wringing. Debates. Legal opinions. Opinion polls showing that if the vote was held today, it would fail. Talking heads sadly shaking their heads and pointing to the fact that it's been a year and <major international incident> means the referendum result has been overtaken by events.
    posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:31 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    For many Leave voters, they never did.

    The point was that the things never happened. Do you ever read the comments you reply to?
    posted by effbot at 12:31 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    predicted all sorts of terrible things would happen and things would never, ever get better right through the financial crisis.

    Of course I read it - the second phrase 'and things would never, ever get better' reads to me like it refers to the aftermath of the bad things that did happen in 2008, rather than follows on from things that turned out not to happen in the first place. But I could be wrong!
    posted by Coda Tronca at 12:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Surely it should now be put to Parliament first? In a nonpartisan way, of course - a conscience vote - so that the fate of the government does not hang on the decision.

    Surely it shouldn't.
    Letting the people decide was the whole point, wasn't it? What with "take back control", etc.
    posted by sour cream at 12:38 AM on June 29, 2016


    Letting the people decide was the whole point, wasn't it?

    Well, they can't help it if it's now mid-2017 and they have been prevented from implementing the Brexit by events beyond their control, can they? </rolleyes>
    posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:44 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    We take back the power to kick out the people who make our laws
    Does it really say that? I don't want to hit the Vote Leave website at work, but it seems a bit strange.
    posted by winterhill at 12:44 AM on June 29, 2016


    Does it really say that?

    Copy-paste from page 15 of the PDF.
    posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:54 AM on June 29, 2016


    Christ on a bike. Not only did they not have a plan, they didn't even have a proofreader.

    Unless it was a Freudian slip referring to the fate of David Cameron.
    posted by winterhill at 12:56 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    It's not a typo...? It refers to accountability.
    posted by Coda Tronca at 12:58 AM on June 29, 2016


    >: ...they didn't even have a proofreader.

    The phrase "to kick out the people who make our laws" means that the pro-Leave campaign objects to the "faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" (to quote their rhetoric) and that a Leave vote means that all of the UK's lawmaking apparatus comes under the electoral control of the people*.

    House of Lords and Civil Service excepted, of course.
    posted by fireoyster at 1:03 AM on June 29, 2016


    It's a reference to the Brussels bureaucrats who "make our laws". You know, the ones who draft them, and then make the European Parliament pass them, and then make Westminster enact them in the UK, by bribing them with Stella Artois and mussels or something.
    posted by rory at 1:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    David Allen Green (otherwise known as the legal blogger Jack Of Kent) suspects that the establishment is going to kick Brexit into the long grass:
    • By Article 50 notification not being sent immediately, it increasingly looks like Leave won a Referendum battle but will lose the Brexit war
    • Juncker is blustering and has no force. Watch Tusk.
    • Royal Commission examining all options for Brexit before eventually reporting would be perfectly British thing to do
    • Chaired by Sir John Chilcot, of course, who will be looking for an exciting new project this summer.
    • The "Establishment" can be wrong-footed in a crisis; the mistake is to believe that it remains wrong-footed for very long.
    • The only way to drive fundamental change in the UK is by command of cabinet and parliament, not by referendums. See: Attlee, Thatcher.
    • ...
    • (Btw, am generally neutral on Brexit - my tweets are not intended to be pro-Remain. Just explaining how Leave is now being frustrated.)
    • (Am instinctively a Eurosceptic and indeed was once a research assistant to Bill Cash MP, alongside @DanielJHannan!)
    • (I just do not underestimate the will of Remain to prevail. The referendum is a setback for them, but actual Brexit is still to play for.)
    posted by pharm at 1:06 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I think the strategy of kicking something obnoxious into the long grass works best if the world was not watching when you produced it.
    posted by rongorongo at 1:14 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    It's a reference to the Brussels bureaucrats who "make our laws".

    Why are they "faceless"?
    I thought the EU "laws" (or directives or whatever) are drawn up by the Commission. There's no secret on who's in the EU Commission. The commissioners are only faceless to those who have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of the EU and/or are too lazy to do a one-minute Google search.

    Here are their faces. Scroll down for responsibilities and bios.
    posted by sour cream at 1:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Muddling through is the British Way! Or something. If the next Tory leader goes straight for Article 50 then you’re right. Otherwise, David probably has it.

    This would all be amazing political theatre if it didn’t matter so much to me personally :(

    Meanwhile, Janen Ganesh in the FT: “...on the morning after the referendum, (Boris and Gove) wore the haunted look of jokers at an auction whose playfully exorbitant bid for a vase had just been accepted with a chilling smash of the gavel. They must now govern as well as they campaigned.
    posted by pharm at 1:22 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    The commissioners are only faceless to those who have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of the EU and/or are too lazy to do a one-minute Google search.

    That'd be many readers of The Sun and also the Daily Mail, right?
    posted by Mister Bijou at 1:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I don't know if this has come up earlier today, but according to the Guardian liveblog the SNP are going to ask the Speaker to be recognised as the official Opposition in Westminster. Guardian:
    The SNP’s shadow leader of the house, Pete Wishart, says the party has “shadows in every department and ministry” and would be “prepared to assume office” – the requirement placed on the official opposition. Wishart says the rules allowing the SNP to make the request are set out in Erskine May, which details parliamentary practice.
    This seems a bit odd. The SNP may have shadow ministers in every department, but since their party can't have many more MPs than it already has (because it only stands in Scotland) it will never have a majority and will never assume office.

    Surely the official Opposition has to be a party that is up for election in all parts of the UK and cares about issues in all parts of the UK? An Opposition that doesn't give a shit if the government proposes a bill that's going to cause problems for people in England and Wales is no real Opposition at all.
    posted by winterhill at 1:39 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Why are they "faceless"?

    "We've never seen them on telly or in the papers" = "faceless". If your papers steadfastly refuse to cover the EU in any serious way, you'll never see their faces there, and it becomes self-fulfilling.

    They're faceless in the same way that the latest Tory emerging as a leadership candidate would be to the entire rest of the world.
    posted by rory at 1:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    That'd be many readers of The Sun and also the Daily Mail, right?

    From a quick search, most references to the commission on the mail's site seem to be in the form of a boring Reuters telegram, but I found at least one article that has a photo of the British guy: MEPs lash Cameron's bumbling new man in Brussels as 'charming' but useless, and it even mentions that he's chosen by the British PM and approved by the EU parliament.
    posted by effbot at 1:46 AM on June 29, 2016


    The SNP may have shadow ministers in every department, but since their party can't have many more MPs than it already has (because it only stands in Scotland) it will never have a majority and will never assume office.

    You don't need a majority to assume office; you can have a minority government as part of a coalition or whatever. It's unlikely that an SNP in that situation could be PM, but it's certainly not impossible.
    posted by Joe in Australia at 1:53 AM on June 29, 2016


    Even if it could delay triggering Article 50 indefinitely, it's hardly likely to have any further power in EU deliberations.

    Given the UK's rightward pull in general, and propensity to finale exceptions to allow it to mistreat immigrants, I see this as a feature, not a bug.
    posted by Dysk at 1:54 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    The commissioners are only faceless to those who have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of the EU and/or are too lazy to do a one-minute Google search.

    I certainly know a lot more about Sion Simon, my hard working representative in the European Parliament who I directly voted for in an election based on proportional representation than I do any of my nominal representatives in the House of Lords...
    posted by brilliantmistake at 1:55 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Taibbi: My admittedly primitive understanding of democracy is that we're supposed to move toward it, not away from it, in a moment of crisis.

    And this is an example of my country's proud march towards an ever more democratic future?

    The UK has a system of parliamentary democracy. (And yes I am sure Matt Taibbi actually knows this, but I need to rant at someone and Imaginary Matt Taibbi in my head will just have to do for now.) We elect MPs, who form a Parliament, who propose, debate, and vote on major issues that affect us as a country. There's nothing to say that referendums can't play some kind of part in that, but they haven't played a major one up to this point and we are, very and increasingly obviously, uncertain on how to fit them into the system we have at the moment.

    Should we require a higher bar than "above 50% of turnout" to pass something via referendum? We have in the past. We didn't this time. So the vote was "leave", but not enough that anyone can argue an overwhelming majority supported it. Is this going to work out okay? Cause huge fractures and divisions in the electorate? We don't know.

    How does a vote like this work with devolution? We are not a single country with a single government; Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland have their own governments and their own parliaments/assemblies, their own rights to decide their own laws, their own policies, and their own directions for their own people, within limits which vary per devolved government. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay, by a higher margin than the UK as a whole voted to leave. What's the plan for resolving that democratically? How do we deal with the inevitable tensions it's causing? (And that's not even mentioning the potential for the collapse of peace in Northern Ireland, which I can't even think about right now because I'll just start crying.) We don't know.

    Who, in the case of a referendum on a major change to the country, is responsible for setting out a plan on what that change should look like and how it should be implemented? We don't know - and so we don't even seem to have one.

    If we need to make legislative decisions on this, how do we reconcile that with the process of lawmaking? Not even dealing with the Lords - what about the Commons? If MP Joe Bloggs is asked to vote on some specific enacting legislation to withdraw us from the European Union. Joe Bloggs's party supported Remain; Joe Bloggs's constituency overwhelmingly voted Remain; Joe Bloggs is now getting a lot of letters from his constituents saying "please, don't pass that, this is a total mess and the result is going to be awful for us here." And yet, Joe Bloggs is as aware of the rest of us that the country as a whole voted Leave. So what's Joe Bloggs's democratic duty as an MP there? I hope Joe Bloggs knows, because I don't.

    Right now, the Prime Minister has announced he will step down. We don't know who the next one will be - we don't even know who's standing, or what platforms they're standing on. And the Opposition, who we rely on to pay particular detailed scrutiny to the government's proposals and policies? They're in total turmoil. Who's the opposition now? The SNP? How's that going to work? I suppose we're going to find out, but right now... we don't know.

    And now what? How do we respect the will of the people in this situation? It is increasingly clear that whatever Brexit deal is struck, a large section of the people who voted Leave won't get what they think they were voting for. What are they going to do? How are they going to feel? Is that really going to help people feel more included in the political process, rather than yet more distanced and disenfranchised and dismissed? We need to get people more involved and included in the system that governs them. We desperately need, as a democratic country, for people's voices to matter and for people to feel heard. How do we get there from here?

    Democracy is a system and a process and an ideal. It's not just a one-off event. We are doing a disservice to it and to our whole country if we reduce it to "just rock up every few years and put an X on a piece of paper."
    posted by Catseye at 2:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


    On the subject of the newspapers, while filling up with petrol this morning (which cost a little more than last week) I was confronted with this sorry display on the news-stand: the result of the vote was apparently the EU’s fault (not that of the people who voted for it or the politicians who campaigned for it); ‘BoJo storms ahead in race for leadership’ (presumably he has Mr. Murdoch’s backing already); ‘Le Pen looked at Farage and said “Look at how beautiful history is…”’ (‘…’ indeed!); and, on the very opposite of a slow news day, the Daily Mail leads with a story about statins.
    posted by misteraitch at 2:07 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Right now, the Prime Minister has announced he will step down. We don't know who the next one will be - we don't even know who's standing, or what platforms they're standing on.

    We know that Boris is standing, on UKIP's platform. And on the opposition side, Corbyn, on SWP's platform :-)
    posted by effbot at 2:11 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I was surprised to learn the other day that Boris Johnson was born in New York City. Apparently that is not an obstacle to eligibility.

    And speaking of lying liars with funny hair, do you know who else was born in New York City?
    posted by sour cream at 2:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I was surprised to learn the other day that Boris Johnson was born in New York City. Apparently that is not an obstacle to eligibility.

    Coming over here, stealing our top jobs, typical.
    posted by brilliantmistake at 2:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


    sour_cream, they should call the exterminators, there's obviously a nest somewhere.
    posted by Too-Ticky at 2:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Four working days into life in Thethickofitstan, I can't shake off the fear that all parties need to proceed extremely cautiously or risk Britain becoming a quasi-fascist state; not the full Third Reich, perhaps, but potentially Pinochet's Chile. The fact that polls are suggesting that Regrexit is a statistical blip suggests that a large population in England and Wales would be perfectly happy if a strongman (or woman) emerged from the political chaos to enact Brexit in Full come hell or high water. And not any soft Brexit that keeps freedom of movement intact: something that closes the borders and sets the timer ticking on when EU citizens who are already here must leave.

    When I moved to Britain many people here were still, to an unhealthy degree, clinging to the stereotypes of WW2, and 15 years later you still hear jokes about Germans and their authoritarian tendencies. Well, that's another thing that Brexit should put to bed, because nobody in Britain should now wonder how a civilised people could inadvertently hand power to racists and demagogues. I fear (and I hope it's only a fear, and nothing more) we're watching it in action.

    I don't mean that the strongman/woman is necessarily one of the current MPs. They can't put off a General Election forever.
    posted by rory at 2:47 AM on June 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


    I think it would be worthwhile for anyone with an interest in the Labour party's history and future to be very familiar with the actions of Portland Communications.

    There's probably a lot of crazy out there with opinions on Portland, sure, but there is also a lot of provable evidence of very underhanded shenanigans going on. So before you judge Corbyn on what you see in the media, just think about how or why those stories got there.
    None of this is to say anything about his actual competencies of course, but judge on the whole story, or as much of the whole story that you can discover.
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Also:
    The SNP argues that it has support of more opposition MPs than Labour, so should be made the official Opposition.
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:51 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I think it would be worthwhile for anyone with an interest in the Labour party's history and future to be very familiar with the actions of Portland Communications.

    More here

    There's been definite orchestration of things like the timings of shadow cabinet resignations. I don't think the Corbyn side does itself any favours by criticising the Blairites for actually having an effective media strategy though.
    posted by brilliantmistake at 3:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Portland Communications? More detailed account here
    posted by Mister Bijou at 3:06 AM on June 29, 2016


    Leader of the Opposition generally goes to the parliamentary leader of the party, not allied with the government, that can muster the most members. With Labour split, that looks like the SNP, at least until the Labour rump finds someone they can unite behind. The irony lightens the mood a little.
    posted by Autumn Leaf at 3:07 AM on June 29, 2016


    FTSE 100 just hit 6,299, having closed before Brexit at 6,334.
    posted by Coda Tronca at 3:07 AM on June 29, 2016


    FTSE 100 just hit 6,299, having closed before Brexit at 6,334.
    Isn't this just people bargain-hunting, figuring that things will sort themselves out/Britain will muddle through somehow? It doesn't point to any real-life economic recovery, especially since the pound is still bouncing along the bottom. These are the same traders who were pricing everything based on a Remain vote until 8am last Friday morning, so I take what they have to say now with a pinch of salt.
    posted by winterhill at 3:12 AM on June 29, 2016


    I'm a bit dubious about the Canary as a reputable source. So I'd take some of their analysis with a pinch of salt.
    But it's no secret that Progress (Blair's ginger group) were heavily invested in PR and spin.
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:13 AM on June 29, 2016


    Yes well, given that a big chunk of the FTSE has foreign earnings & the £ has slumped by about 10% that really isn’t that great a performance is it?

    Meanwhile, in FTSE250 land, which has more UK-only companies, things aren’t looking so rosy, even in £ denominated terms.
    posted by pharm at 3:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Getting very salty around here.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    FTSE 100 just hit 6,299, having closed before Brexit at 6,334.

    That's great! I mean I have no shares in anything and don't know how the markets will react when we actually Brexit and also I don't know what will happen to my mortgage payments if interest rates go up as even with two jobs I struggle as it is oh and one of my jobs' Board of Trustees is hoping that Brexit means the predicted minimum wage increases by 2020 won't happen and an anti-racism organisation I worked for for years that did brilliant work will now probably lose all EU funding and probably shut down...but still, the FTSE's only just a little bit down today huzzah!
    posted by billiebee at 3:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [22 favorites]




    [Comment deleted. Coda Tronca, please give this thread a breather. You have more comments than anyone and seem to be trolling for a fight now.]
    posted by taz at 3:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


    infini. I think that’s just an error - they’ve switched the CHF and £ rates.
    posted by pharm at 3:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    The Scottish Government's council on Europe has now been assembled. Quick work.
    posted by rongorongo at 3:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    This BBC article is talking about British tourism in general, not just more British people staying at home.

    After Brexit will more of us take our holidays in the UK?

    From one spokesman:
    And his view that with sterling now worth less, UK tourism could be one of the clear winners from Brexit is echoed by others in the industry.
    The article goes on to say that nine million holidaymakers came to the UK from the EU last year. But tourism is an industry that is strongly affected by customers' perceptions, and I worry that all that anti-foreigner sentiment that's been airing on news clips and viral videos (and Nigel Farage's gloating in the European Parliament) will be seen as the new face of England in the rest of the EU. I'm one of those 9 million visitors myself, but I'd think twice about going back if I thought my accent would expose me to all the xenophobes.

    Would any continental visitor actually want to set foot in a B+B or pub whose owner is ranting against EU migrants? Or one who is polite to their faces but has UKIP stickers all over the place?

    I imagine that VisitScotland is already gearing up a supplementary campaign to emphasize how much the Scots love the EU.
    posted by Azara at 3:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


    > "The author contrasts the lengthy and meticulous preparation of a 600 page white paper in the run up to the 2014 Scottish Indy-ref with the lack of anything remotely similar prepared by either the in or the out campaigns ..."

    God, yes. And at the time, much of my nervousness about the possibility of IndyRef1 winning was that I didn't think it had been sufficiently planned out. But in comparison to Leave, their plan looks like friggin' Keyser Söze level forethought.
    posted by kyrademon at 3:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


    I'm one of those 9 million visitors myself, but I'd think twice about going back if I thought my accent would expose me to all the xenophobes.

    Yes. Its going to rather complicated over the next couple of years - I usually try to keep a valid long term UK visa but now I don't know how all of this will impact, both legally (EU residency) and personally (foreigner with accent)
    posted by infini at 3:40 AM on June 29, 2016




    It's very interesting seeing the Scottish Parliament seizing control of its foreign policy, one of the reserved powers that have not been devolved, while politics is swirling into a black hole at Westminster.
    posted by brilliantmistake at 3:56 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


    France cynicallly intends to offer Britain an EEA- that excludes passporting, but givs them a migration cap, and single market access.— Ben Judah (@b_judah) June 29, 2016
    Losing a massive chunk of the tax base in order to give Leavers what they want is probably not the kind of outcome Boris et al had in mind, but it’s what we might end up with.
    posted by pharm at 3:59 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    WRT Scottish tourism campaigns, someone should have cstross get on this and find some people who haven't even heard how the U.K. Voted against outsiders: he needs to get off-worlders to visit!!
    posted by wenestvedt at 4:08 AM on June 29, 2016


    This is an interesting comment on Corbyn's position, repeated here since it seems that Guardian comments section is being more insightful than the opinion section these days.

    "The constant mistake the media make is that they treat Corbyn as an individual. A personality (yes yes, no personality or charisma, hahaha). If you view everything he'd doing through a different lens, perhaps it would all make sense and you could actually report on this mess so people would leave with greater knowledge of the situation.

    The 7 out of 10 remark perfectly defines Corbyn's mindset. All he's ever wanted to be is a mouthpiece for other people. He ran for the leadership, so that the left had a voice in the contest. Nothing ambitious, just that. When he won he said PMQs would be changed so the people could speak directly to the PM, and hey, he actually did that. He's stuck to his mandate, because, so far, the membership he's representing hasn't told him otherwise. He continues to say he's anti-trident because the members he represents are mostly against it. When it came to the election, he bloody nailed it. He tried to represent the whole labour, to express their conflict and to try and explain. He said he was 7 out of 10 for Remain....Labour? they voted 67% for remain...or about 6.7 out of 10....

    So here we are. He can't resign because everyone he's trying to represent hasn't told him to. Attacks on him individually are seen as attacks on everyone who voted for him. The No Confidence vote is now viewed (because the undermining began within the hour - I'm looking at you Jamie Reed) as a No Confidence vote for the majority of the membership. I reckon if the Membership voted him out he'd just smile, thank them for being allowed to represent them, then toddle off to his allotment for the afternoon, 'appy as Larry.

    So no, he isn't a Leader. He's a representative. Has always been. And until the Media start phrasing the argument this way, we're going to be stuck with this divisive tone of us vs them vs us...."
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:52 AM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


    So, a blog post that turned up on my feed pointed me towards two Owen Jones Medium posts: a new one about the crises, and one from last year about what it was necessary for the Corbyn leadership to do. Heartbreaking. Read that last post - this is why the people who are saying he's failed are saying it. He's done none of that, and no substantive alternative to any of it.
    posted by Grangousier at 5:14 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    But we - by which I mean grass roots party members - already have representatives: Our CLPs. And that's how we decide policy: at conference, not directly from the leadership, which is why I've found Corbyn's attitude and lack of flexibility on a variety of issues (Brexit and Trident just two) somewhat frustrating.

    I'm not happy with the PLP either, and I don't feel that many of them consulted their local party members enough before acting. That needs reforming urgently. But at this point JC has long passed the point of no return and he seems to be the only person who can't see it.
    posted by A Robot Ninja at 5:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    So no, he isn't a Leader. He's a representative. Has always been. And until the Media start phrasing the argument this way, we're going to be stuck with this divisive tone of us vs them vs us....

    Whenever I've heard Corbyn speak I've liked the bloke, and there are only a few policy areas where I'd disagree with him, which is pretty good as things go, so consider me sympathetic from that side of things. And I can't fault him for being a mirror of the wider party he leads, as you so well elaborate. But he's up against the competing Burkean idea of representation, that a representative "is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament". Parliamentary party leaders, even more so. I can't see any way for him to make it work.
    posted by rory at 5:22 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    So no, he isn't a Leader. He's a representative.

    Of course, his formal title is "Leader of the Labour Party" so maybe that should have told him that he was expected to do a bit of leading as well.

    As for who he's really representing, 122,000 party members and 130,000 supporters voted for him (many of these supporters registered specifically for the election, and the other candidates barely got any votes from them). Corbyn has been very clear in how he's representing this group of people.

    On the other hand, 9,347,000 people voted for the party in the 2015 elections, mostly voting for the MPs that are now labelled "vermin", "traitors and cowards", "oligarch and war supporters", "zionist plotters" etc by his online fanbase. Are you sure he knows he's supposed to represent these voters as well? I'm not convinced.
    posted by effbot at 5:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Meanwhile, in FTSE250 land, which has more UK-only companies, things aren’t looking so rosy, even in £ denominated terms.

    The Economist has some graphs here: Brexit: taking stock.
    posted by effbot at 5:37 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I don't know enough about internal Labour politics to have any worthwhile thing to say about Corbyn.

    However, listening to the accents in PMQ just now it certainly sounds as if the de facto Loyal Opposition is Scottish at the moment....
    posted by tivalasvegas at 5:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    The MPs from Northern Ireland -- it's not the anger that gets me, it's hearing the raw pain at their sudden realization that England did not think of them at all when they voted last week.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 5:47 AM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Four working days into life in Thethickofitstan

    +5 points; would also have accepted "Omnishamblvania."
    posted by Catseye at 5:58 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Pat Glass.

    Appointed Shadow Secretary of State for Education on Monday.
    Announces she will not stand at next election on Tuesday.
    Resigns as Shadow Secretary of State for Education on Wednesday.

    Don't read the replies on the last one. No details on why she's gone yet, but full on attacks. Including people calling for her to be deselected for the next election.
    posted by MattWPBS at 6:00 AM on June 29, 2016


    Honestly, if I were a Northern Irish unionist, I would be furious. Their entire political identity is built around loyalty to a nation whose other members literally don't give a damn that they exist. It's not that people in England and Wales voted leave, because some unionists also voted leave. It's that they just sort of forgot that NI was there.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Rajoy just came out and said Spain opposes any EU negotiations with Scotland after Brexit.

    So say goodbye to that hope...
    posted by JPD at 6:02 AM on June 29, 2016


    Including people calling for her to be deselected for the next election.

    Is that despite the fact that she already said she won't be standing before she was appointed to the Shadow Cabinet?

    FFS.
    posted by Grangousier at 6:04 AM on June 29, 2016


    Rajoy just came out and said Spain opposes any EU negotiations with Scotland after Brexit.
    Rajoy's position is tenuous at best, is it not? By the time Britain gets around to Brexit, anyone could be in charge in Spain.
    posted by winterhill at 6:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Forget about Scotland and Northern Ireland. There is no way the Labour Party can dislodge the SNP in Scotland at this point. It's time for Labour to work on strategic alliances, to pry loose the conservative grip on English electorates. But that is the measure of their failure. They are far more invested in internal politics than in the actual crisis laid out in front of them. So fuck'm.

    Edited to add: but it's past 11pm here and I have had more to drink than I should. Time to sign off.
    posted by Autumn Leaf at 6:05 AM on June 29, 2016


    But but but BLIARITE NEO-CON-FASCIST TRAITORS! SPLITTERS!
    posted by Grangousier at 6:08 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Their entire political identity is built around loyalty to a nation whose other members literally don't give a damn that they exist.

    One of the ironies of life here is that both sides swear loyalty to a country that doesn't give a shit about them.
    posted by billiebee at 6:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


    So, a lot of people won't want to vote for the Tories, and definitely won't vote for UKIP. Who do you suppose their votes will go to if not Labour (and at this point I'd say probably not Labour)? I wondered this morning whether it was useful to the LibDems that they had their meltdown over a year ago. Collapse early and beat the rush
    posted by Grangousier at 6:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Nobody thought of anything - or, rather, anyone saying that there were a thousand problems with Brexit and exactly what was the plan there was either ignored or shouted down as 'Project Fear'. People knew full well what the intractable issues over Northern Ireland were, but refused to address them. "We'll have to keep an eye on that", said Farage. And that was that.

    The role of the right-wing press in this whole sorry pit of pus can't be overstated. Having demonised Europe for decades (a process led by a journalist called Boris Johnson, who discovered that filing fruity, fallacious stories from Brussels was eagerly accepted), it then happily took those well-fertilized fields and constructed an edifice of populist lies and deception which blamed the effects of austerity on an EU that bore little resemblance to the actual Union. And a very great number of readers clung to that, because it fitted their preconceptions and fulfilled the need to blame demons.

    I am not a vindictive man. But long ago, I decided I could not rest until the offices of the Mail, the Express and News International had been razed to the ground, the occupants sold into slavery and their farms ploughed with salt. I now wish to rescind that, and say that slavery is far too good for them and I wish to hire George R R Martin to write the script for their actual demise.
    posted by Devonian at 6:11 AM on June 29, 2016 [32 favorites]


    Politics 2016
    posted by Artw at 6:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Could we restrict the GRRMartining to the Lords and Nobles? Many of the peasentry and bannermen may be redeemable.
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Rajoy's position is tenuous at best, is it not? By the time Britain gets around to Brexit, anyone could be in charge in Spain.

    PP actually added seats in the election this week, but they don't have a majority. But the PSOE refuses to form a government with the Catalan separatists as well - that's why they had to have another election.

    If Podemos got control then maybe Scotland's got a chance - but they were the net biggest loser of the election.
    posted by JPD at 6:17 AM on June 29, 2016


    Ed Miliband now calling on Corbyn to step down. 'I’m not a Blairite. I’ve never been called a Blairite,' the former Brownite whose leadership was sniped at constantly by Blair says, as people start denouncing him as a Blairite.
    posted by Mocata at 6:18 AM on June 29, 2016


    Not really surprised to see Labour organizing circular firing squads now.

    Of course on the other side it seems like the Tories and UKIPs are in a desperate race to resemble Chile post Allende.

    When does Nick Houghton declare a coup and become Lord Protector? It seems like you guys wouldn't mind another Cromwell right about now...
    posted by vuron at 6:19 AM on June 29, 2016


    Oh, right. No one in Spain wants to negotiate with Scotland because it would legitimise Catalan and other separatists...
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Cameron sort of riffed on Leo Amery quoting Cromwell in PMQs today. So maybe it's not too far off.
    posted by Mocata at 6:21 AM on June 29, 2016


    Honestly, if I were a Northern Irish unionist, I would be furious. Their entire political identity is built around loyalty to a nation whose other members literally don't give a damn that they exist. It's not that people in England and Wales voted leave, because some unionists also voted leave. It's that they just sort of forgot that NI was there.

    That was always the goal of the Good Friday Agreement: not peace, but the ability to go back to ignoring Northern Ireland's existence. So long as the mainland campaign is over, nothing else matters.
    posted by Emma May Smith at 6:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]




    I'm sure a suitable figleaf for Spain can be found if the UK (or Scotland) and the EU come to an arrangement. After all the situations of Scotland and Catalonia are hardly similar since Thursday last.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Meanwhile, Vodafone, Visa and Easyjet are talking about moving their HQs out of the UK, and the German regulator is saying that the planned merger between the London and German stock exchanges can't happen because a major financial institution like that can't be outside the EU.

    And called it freedom...
    posted by Devonian at 6:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]




    Oh, right. No one in Spain wants to negotiate with Scotland because it would legitimise Catalan and other separatists...

    Unidos Podemos has been for an independence referendum, but they relaxed their stance a bit just before election.

    And lost a million votes.
    posted by effbot at 6:30 AM on June 29, 2016


    So long as the mainland campaign is over, nothing else matters.

    Thanks. But worth remembering "over" and "not currently troubling GB" are different, and that conflict here has a habit of making it across the water from time to time.
    posted by billiebee at 6:30 AM on June 29, 2016


    Oh, right. No one in Spain wants to negotiate with Scotland because it would legitimise Catalan and other separatists...

    PP didn't win a majority though. And there's talk of a coalition among the Left parties to take control of Spain. If they do so, that will be in Scotland's favour.
    posted by vacapinta at 6:31 AM on June 29, 2016


    Lots of high-minded rhetoric from the Government side about "British values" and "no place for hate crimes."

    Not hearing any acknowledgement that it was their stupid and foolish and shortsighted decision to have a referendum in the first place.

    I mean, it sucks that Labour is having some internal difficulties but the last time the Tories had a potential split they ended up making a decision that, odds are, may lead to the breakup of the UK if not Europe. So there's that.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I'm sure a suitable figleaf for Spain can be found if the UK (or Scotland) and the EU come to an arrangement. After all the situations of Scotland and Catalonia are hardly similar since Thursday last.

    What is a suitable figleaf for permitting regional separation?

    Also Catalonia is much much much more important to Spain than Scotland is to the UK

    PP didn't win a majority though. And there's talk of a coalition among the Left parties to take control of Spain. If they do so, that will be in Scotland's favour.

    Not unless the PSOE changes their mind. This most recent election only happened because the PSOE was willing to enter into coalition with Podemos, but not with the Catalan Independence folks.
    posted by JPD at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2016


    Meanwhile, Vodafone, Visa and Easyjet are talking about moving their HQs out of the UK,

    Vodafone used the EU to avoid billions of tax. They routed the purchase of another company through Luxembourg, taking advantage of laws brought in by Jean-Claude Juncker.
    posted by Emma May Smith at 6:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Ed Miliband now calling on Corbyn to step down. 'I’m not a Blairite. I’ve never been called a Blairite,' the former Brownite whose leadership was sniped at constantly by Blair says, as people start denouncing him as a Blairite.

    This all makes a lot more sense when you realise that most people using Blairite in this way use it to mean New Labour. From that perspective, there is little to distinguish Brownites from Blairites.
    posted by Dysk at 6:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Unidos Podemos and PSOE kind of seem screwed when it comes to providing any support to Catalan or Basque separatists.

    Support referendums on separation and you lose support of a lot of the Spanish voters but gain support among Basque and Catalan (and I guess Andalusia). However if Catalans or Basques ever get independence your vote share will go way down (kind of like Labour always had to be cautious about Scottish Independence).

    Long term I kind of hope that the federalism of the EU will nullify some of the nationalist tendencies in many of the European Nation States so that nationalism becomes more culturally focused (woo it's time for the Euros again!) and less about politics and economics. Yeah football can result in some violence but way way less on average than fights over sovereignty.
    posted by vuron at 6:40 AM on June 29, 2016


    Vodafone used the EU to avoid billions of tax. They routed the purchase of another company through Luxembourg, taking advantage of laws brought in by Jean-Claude Juncker.

    I've already linked this but Vodafone was enabled by the UK.

    "Vodafone says its US stake is owned by a holding company based in the Netherlands, and so will not be liable for tax in Britain. It will pay £3.2bn in tax in the United States.
    Even if the US shareholding were held in the UK, the firm would not be liable to tax on its gains under rules on shares sell-offs introduced by the then Chancellor Gordon Brown in 2002 [...] The Treasury believes the 2002 change boosts Britain’s competitiveness and encourages multinationals to be based in the UK."

    You don't need the EU to make things sweet for multinational corporations and if that's one of the reasons people voted for Leave they're in for a rude awakening.
    posted by billiebee at 6:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


    I'm sure a figleaf would look something like 'if a state dissolves and portions of it leave the EU, then the other components can negotiate to remain'. which doesn't give the Catalans any help (not the first time that the UK has not been much bloody good for them) but does actually provide a useful precedent for the future nonetheless. The UK is unique in Europe with its quasi-federalist national structure, and I have no doubt that elements of that can be used to differentiate it from Spain's position.

    There are practical problems to Scotland continuing alone within the EU, as any plausible agreement with the rump UK over assumption of proportions of the national debt put it outside the fiscal requirements for membership accession, but if it's not an accession but a continuation then I expect they can be fixed - after all, when all parties to a deal want it to happen, there's usually a way.
    posted by Devonian at 6:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    This all makes a lot more sense when you realise that most people using Blairite in this way use it to mean New Labour. From that perspective, there is little to distinguish Brownites from Blairites.

    Yes but there's a further nuance that's not always easy to detect in an online forum: people who use 'Blairite' to mean New Labour or not down with Corbyn because they don't know much about Labour factional squabbles (fair enough); and people who know perfectly well that Ed Miliband or Lisa Nandy or whoever aren't Blairites but call them that anyway in a passive-aggressive way to indicate that they all look the same from the lofty perspective of True Socialism (annoying).
    posted by Mocata at 6:49 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I now wish to rescind that, and say that slavery is far too good for them and I wish to hire George R R Martin to write the script for their actual demise.

    I started binge-watching Game of Thrones from the beginning a few weeks before the referendum, and it's made for a mighty surreal month, I tell you what.

    Rajoy just came out and said Spain opposes any EU negotiations with Scotland after Brexit.

    Blocking separatist movements among EU members to discourage your own is one thing (not a good thing, but it's a thing, and concern about it was one reason many in Scotland voted No in 2014), but blocking countries that have recently separated from non-members - which may be the case if/when an indy Scotland applies to join the EU in its own right - makes no sense at all. If that were generally the case, the EU would have no Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.
    posted by rory at 6:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I've already linked this but Vodafone was enabled by the UK.

    That's not the tax scam I was referring to. Although I'm aware that Vodafone avoids tax as much as it can.

    You don't need the EU to make things sweet for multinational corporations and if that's one of the reasons people voted for Leave they're in for a rude awakening.

    Of course you don't need the EU to enable companies to steal tax. My point is that Vodafone announcing they're looking at moving their HQ is nothing but self-serving. They love the EU because they love billions in tax that they've stolen. If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too.
    posted by Emma May Smith at 6:51 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    What is a suitable figleaf for permitting regional separation?

    The fact that the larger polity to which the region belongs has suddenly and drastically decided to leave Europe.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:52 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too.

    Even if your general sentiment with regard to perceptions of the EU in the Remain camp contra reality were correct, none of them are likely to be in for a rude awakening. Have we already forgotten that this whole Brexit thing is happening?
    posted by Dysk at 6:59 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    My point is that Vodafone announcing they're looking at moving their HQ is nothing but self-serving

    Why else would they move the company?
    posted by effbot at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Have we already forgotten that this whole Brexit thing is happening?

    It's not happening.
    posted by Emma May Smith at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016


    but blocking countries that have recently separated from non-members - which may be the case if/when an indy Scotland applies to join the EU in its own right - makes no sense at all. If that were generally the case, the EU would have no Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.

    all of those countries had chosen independence before entering the EU was seen an option. Not to mention Slovenia and especially Croatia fought a war to gain independence.

    The issue is that absent the option of remaining in the EU, Catalan independence is a probably not an electoral winner.

    I'm not saying its right, I'm saying the PSOE and PP have felt strongly that any separatist movements are to be rejected within the EU. Politically its a non-starter for them, and the economic benefit of Scotland in for them is de minimis. You should basically start writing checks to Podemos if you want Scotland in the EU.
    posted by JPD at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016


    They love the EU because they love billions in tax that they've stolen.

    And they loved the UK because of the billions they helped them steal. Is that part going to change under the New Order? Is the UK going to clamp down on tax evasion and head towards more regulation? Not that anyone has a clue what the New Order will look like. Let's hope Team Leave run the country better than they ran their Exit Strategy Committee, eh?

    If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too

    Apart from the fact that no one has said that I'm not sure where the rude awakening comes from when apparently we're escaping the nasty mean EU?
    posted by billiebee at 7:07 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Following on from the entryism dicussion earlier, Robert Peston on Twitter:
    I am told 13,000 people joined Labour last week, with 60% giving the reason they are "supporting Corbyn"....
    posted by MattWPBS at 7:08 AM on June 29, 2016


    It's not happening.

    Do you have any sort of source for that at all? Because it sure looks like it's happening, even if article 50 won't be invoked immediately. I don't see anyone actually in the political arena seriously arguing against ever invoking it, but maybe things have changed since I looked at the news?

    Besides which, I seriously doubt anyone expects the EU to play nicely under the circumstances if we weren't to leave. Any and all political good will has been well and truly pissed away now, and there is no incentive for the EU to do anything but hold the UK in the contempt with which they are in turn treated. The population of Britain just screamed "fuck your friendship" in their face - nobody is expecting a hug in response.
    posted by Dysk at 7:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


    I am told 13,000 people joined Labour last week, with 60% giving the reason they are "supporting Corbyn"...

    Yes, but it might be a good idea for them to hold the conference in Hackney this year, so they can be closer to the membership. One of the Twitter accounts I follow, that just went Spart, is retweeting all the people going "I joined to support Jeremy", and they're very much of a type.

    They'll successfully take full control of the cockpit, banish the old flight crew but haven't considered that there's no one left on board with more than a provisional driving license.

    "Goodness, Seamus! This is a lot more complicated than my Austin Allegro!"
    posted by Grangousier at 7:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    To be fair, it may not yet be happening for Vodafone since their stock is now trading in the UK as the same price as before the vote. I think so many people have had a bellyful of banks and companies threatening to leave for so long now that it just bounces off.
    posted by Coda Tronca at 7:15 AM on June 29, 2016


    Any and all political good will has been well and truly pissed away now, and there is no incentive for the EU to do anything but hold the UK in the contempt with which they are in turn treated.

    Sad to say, this captures how many of the continental Europeans feel.
    posted by infini at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    all of those countries had chosen independence before entering the EU was seen an option.

    The EU absorbed its first Warsaw pact nation (though not as a separate member) in 1990, a few months after the Berlin Wall came down. I know that the four others mentioned weren't officially on EU-track until much later, but people were imagining the possibilities of the post-Cold War landscape more or less from the moment the Wall fell.
    posted by rory at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016


    I think Hackney, at 78 percent, had the highest Remaon vote in the country!
    posted by Coda Tronca at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016




    PSOE and PP have felt strongly that any separatist movements are to be rejected within the EU.

    But Scotland won't be a separatist movement within the EU. Right now, England and Wales are the separatist movement within the EU (in effect, if not intent).
    posted by rory at 7:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    and there is no incentive for the EU to do anything but hold the UK in the contempt with which they are in turn treated.

    Contempt is a human emotion experienced by biological beings, not governments, and the people who make deals know that. They may need to put fig leaves and other trimmings on top of their associations [1], but at the end of the day the deals they make reflect economic and military power, not the pretty speeches made by politicians or noises made by their citizens [2].

    [1] See the nature of the relationships Saudi Arabia has with other nations
    [2] See how the Iraq war rolled out
    posted by phearlez at 7:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    But Scotland won't be a separatist movement within the EU. Right now, England and Wales are the separatist movement within the EU (in effect, if not intent).

    That's not how the Spanish see it.

    I completely fail to see what German reunification has to do with this conversation.
    posted by JPD at 7:38 AM on June 29, 2016


    Varoufakis summarizes Zizek's take on Brexit:

    The real, actual choice is between (A) a vicious cycle between (1 [neo-liberalism]) & (2 [fascism]) above and (B) a pan-European democratic project addressing the actual challenges humanity faces (e.g. the deflationary moment in our history, the inexorable devaluation of human labour, TTIP like attacks on sovereignty, climate change etc.).
    posted by notyou at 7:39 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Opendemocracy article on Scotland and the EU post brexit. - including discussion of options with or without independence.
    posted by rongorongo at 7:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Contempt is a human emotion experienced by biological beings, not governments, and the people who make deals know that.

    Okay, rephrased for bureaucratese: the EU no longer has a reason to be beholden to the UK with its tenuous membership of the EU not being something in need of consideration any longer. The power relationship has changed, and the EU organisationally is no longer bound to, and no longer has any incentives to, consider the UK's interests such as it did before.

    All compounded by the UK no longer having meaningful representation in the organisation to press its interests internally going forward.
    posted by Dysk at 7:45 AM on June 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


    Blog entry about yesterday's European Parliament meeting by Vytenis Andriukaitis a.k.a Facepalm Man*

    * Lithuanian former surgeon who was born in a Stalin-era labour camp who was being told he'd never had a job.

    Garage is a national humiliation. He should be summoned to Buckingham Palace, where the Queen will watch him being kicked in the balls by representatives of all the national rugby teams of the UK for two hours. Every day.
    posted by Grangousier at 8:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


    "Okay, now we are amused."
    posted by Etrigan at 8:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


    The 7 out of 10 remark perfectly defines Corbyn's mindset. All he's ever wanted to be is a mouthpiece for other people [etc]

    This is a nice argument but leaves out that Corbyn actually exercises moral and practical judgment over the opinions he chooses to give voice to. He isn't self-divided on the death penalty, or the desirability of mass deportations, or of detaining suspected terrorists without trial, as he'd have to be if he really aimed to give voice to the views of all the Labour voters out there.

    And if it's alright for him to do that, why isn't it alright for the PLP - speaking collectively for many millions more voters - to exercise its practical and moral judgment about the desirability of letting him bumble on with a wonderful programme that he'll never ever get a chance to implement, a programme he makes less likely to be implemented the longer he sticks around?
    posted by Mocata at 8:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Garage is a national humiliation.

    That said Farage when I typed it. Fucking autocorrect.
    posted by Grangousier at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Umm, ok, so Sky News journos say Corbyn is aiming to use the re-election to abandon representative democracy. The masses should run the party, rebellious right wing cronies MPs will be punished, etc. What's next, struggle sessions?
    posted by effbot at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    John Craig Chief Political Correspondent, Sky News : Some Labour MPs believe Corbyn clinging on to respond to Chilcot next week, apologise on behalf of Lab & call for Blair war crimes trial.
    Now that is something I would dearly like to hear.
    posted by adamvasco at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I completely fail to see what German reunification has to do with this conversation.

    Just that people were thinking about a larger EU that embraced former Warsaw pact countries from the start of the post-Cold War era; it wasn't just something that occurred to them in the early 2000s, after Slovenia and Croatia became independent and Czechoslovakia separated. So the fact of separation in and of itself shouldn't be an obstacle to joining the EU. The specific circumstances of each country should be taken into account.

    Part of Scotland's circumstances is that it held back from separating, in extremely recent memory, in part because of the effect that might have on its EU membership, knowing that Spain wouldn't want to reward a separatist movement elsewhere. Any separation now would be under totally different circumstances. Without those new circumstances, none of us would even be talking about it. (In 2016, anyway.)

    We seem to have ended up in a situation where if England and Wales declared independence from the United Kingdom, leaving Scotland and Northern Ireland as a rump UK within the EU and them out of it, Spain would presumably be happy (because Scotland/NI won't be the ones doing the separating), but if Scotland and/or NI declare independence from a Brexiting UK specifically to remain in the EU, Spain won't be happy. Forget sending cheques to Podemos, Scotland should be sending them to... UKIP? Oh Christ.

    I'm still holding out hope that a go-slow by the Cabinet Office will save us all.
    posted by rory at 8:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Contempt is a human emotion experienced by biological beings, not governments, and the people who make deals know that.

    Governments don't have an existence independent of the choices and actions of biological beings that compose them, and the people who make deals know that. Ask any diplomat.

    An awful lot of people seem inclined to assign agency to abstract concepts like "neoliberalism" or "socialism," or to imagine that political leaders are speaking as the avatars of constructed entities like "the EU" or "the Leave campaign" as though these entities had some kind of independent existence and will. But there are only humans making human decisions based on human emotion with human abilities and limitations. The whole referendum fiasco really should lay that bare. None of the constructed political or corporate systems with power to hold the referendum benefited from doing so, and certainly not in the poorly-thought-out way it was done (50% threshold, seriously?). Rather human actors like David Cameron decided to do so, out of hubris, ambition, myopia, and other very human qualities.

    Understanding complex constructed systems like governments, economies, and ideologies at the level of aggregate behavior is absolutely important. But at their core, these systems are just collections of humans with all the strengths and frailties that go along with being human. Contempt is absolutely a human emotion that could influence how the EU and UK are able to negotiate over the coming months/years.
    posted by biogeo at 8:16 AM on June 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


    > Garage is a national humiliation.

    That said Farage when I typed it. Fucking autocorrect.


    Here in the American South we call him Nigel Car Park.
    posted by biogeo at 8:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


    Nigel Garage is a far better name for the man.

    Boris was renamed Silvio Borisconi by a fellow Tory MP in Parliament today. That too is a marked improvement.
    posted by Devonian at 8:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Umm, ok, so Sky News journos say Corbyn is aiming to use the re-election to abandon representative democracy.

    It's weird. We have a name for a system of political power whereby the adoration of the masses empowers a single leader who imposes uniformity and control from above, and they wouldn't like it to be applied to them. I can only assume they haven't thought it through.
    posted by Grangousier at 8:18 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Nigel Garage is a far better name for the man.

    When he appeared on Have I Got News For You (yes, another walking disaster they enabled early on) he said he didn't care who his name was pronounced as long as people were talking about him. I've called him Niggle Farrago ever since.
    posted by Grangousier at 8:20 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Christ, not this again. In what topsy-turvy world is deselection the abandonment of representative democracy? Almost to a woman and man they are MPs solely because of the Labour Party stamp not the other way round and if the membership of the party chooses someone else, that's democracy.
    posted by Abiezer at 8:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Blog entry about yesterday's European Parliament meeting by Vytenis Andriukaitis a.k.a Facepalm Man*

    I sort of wish I hadn't read that. I've been cycling through the grief stages and this has brought me to the next one.

    Denial
    Friday morning to Partner as soon as we woke up, "Check the results would you?"
    Long pause.
    Him: "UK votes to Leave".
    Me: "Nooo! What? Nooo! Are you serious?! Noooo!" etc. All day.

    Anger
    "They didn't even think of us over here! We didn't even want this shit! Fuck them to hell and back if things go bad here again!" etc.

    Bargaining
    Wrote to my MP asking him to vote against any Parliamentary motion to Leave. Read many blogs and articles about Article 50. Crossed fingers, lit candles etc.

    Depression
    Read Vytenis Andriukaitis' blog which said "Jo Cox was killed because of people instigating hate, chauvinism and phobias." How do we fight that when the people who encouraged those feelings all through the campaign actually won? For the first time I wanted to cry.

    Not sure when Acceptance comes.
    posted by billiebee at 8:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


    Umm, ok, so Sky News journos say Corbyn is aiming to use the re-election to abandon representative democracy. The masses should run the party, rebellious right wing cronies MPs will be punished, etc. What's next, struggle sessions?

    I really hope that's either not true, or missing a lot of detail.

    Could do with looking at the Lib Dem model - constituency parties send elected representatives and policy suggestions to conference, conference elects people to the Federal Policy Committee (along with other areas of the party), Federal Policy Committee formulates policy, consituency parties discuss policy from the FPC, send elected representatives to conference to vote on them, etc, etc.
    posted by MattWPBS at 8:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Rather human actors like David Cameron decided to do so, out of hubris, ambition, myopia, and other very human qualities.

    Sure. So please, humans of the EU, when considering how to deal with the fate of the humans of the UK, remember that we collectively outnumber the handful of humans who led us to this point by millions to one. That's the problem with all these cartoons representing the UK as David Cameron with a Union Jack briefcase.

    Yes, the man was a fool even to contemplate this. One of the many reasons I and most people in Britain didn't vote for him or his party.
    posted by rory at 8:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    There was widespread discontent in the Labour party during Blair years when shortlists for prospective candidates were provided to CLPs to choose from, and changes to the rules of conference / policy was implemented, leaving a lot of CLPs feeling like they had no say in Labour candidates or policies and why a lot of MPs are not getting much in the way of CLP support at the moment.

    (I have to apologise for lack of detail here, It was before my time and I don't know the specifics so could be wildly incorrect. But this is the impression that I've got from talking to others).
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:34 AM on June 29, 2016


    Christ, not this again. In what topsy-turvy world is deselection the abandonment of representative democracy? Almost to a woman and man they are MPs solely because of the Labour Party stamp not the other way round and if the membership of the party chooses someone else, that's democracy.

    Yes I agree that this talk is overblown, like the Trot entryist talk. Disagree that it's a sensible course for Corbyn to pursue. Even if he pulled it off he'd just get wiped put in a general election. And then what? Stick around complaining he'd have won if not for the right wing wreckers so the loss doesn't count? If you like his programme your only hope is some kind of Corbynism without Corbyn, as Owen Jones and others can see. The fact that so many of his supporters won't see that makes me worry not only that they're badly informed about the realities of taking power in the actually existing political system, but that Corbyn and those around him are deluding themselves and their fans.
    posted by Mocata at 8:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I've got Corbyn-supporting friends on Facebook saying 1) Corbyn shouldn't be required to have the support of a small fraction of MPs in order to run in a leadership contest, because he's already the leader, and 2) The Tories want Corbyn to go because they're scared of how effective his opposition will be after he wins the leadership election. Even though he lost a confidence vote among his own MPs and his own Shadow Cabinet.

    This is all real stuff that is actually happening
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:40 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Broadly agree as regards deselection Mocata, and further think there'd be more than a chance that a fair few would stand as independents splitting the vote.
    But I do think he should stick it out now as I think he's looking to win this fight not for himself but precisely so you can have a leader chosen by the membership - if they go for someone else convinced he'd cheerfully hand on the baton (or put another way, it's not important he wins, it's important the managerialist bubble loses). See the four big unions have just backed him (and a leadership election), looks like he might still win this staring contest.
    posted by Abiezer at 8:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Yeah, my thumbnail sketch of the entryist route to power was *totally* overblown and alarmist wasn’t it? Except for the fact that I called exactly this move in advance of it happening.
    posted by pharm at 8:41 AM on June 29, 2016


    The Tories want Corbyn to go because they're scared of how effective his opposition will be after he wins the leadership election. Even though he lost a confidence vote among his own MPs and his own Shadow Cabinet.
    There is actually a Telegraph article from the initial election he won with a Tory frankly saying just that, not because he's effective but because his very existence and the questions he asks drags the Overton window to the left.
    posted by Abiezer at 8:43 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    But a lot as changed since he initially became leader, as indicated by most of his Shadow Cabinet resigning. Surely the Tories would be delighted to have a continuing dysfunctional opposition? Every time Corbyn speaks they can remind him that he doesn't even have the support of his own MPs.
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:45 AM on June 29, 2016


    The Tories willingly brought this apocalyptic referendum upon the UK and it would seem like the perfect time for an opposition party to undermine and dominate them, but instead we have... whatever this is.
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:48 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Talk on Twitter of Corbyn stepping down sometime in the next day or so?
    posted by My Dad at 8:48 AM on June 29, 2016


    Is 2016 sufficiently demented that it could include a big Lib Dem comeback? (Probably not)
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:49 AM on June 29, 2016


    But a lot as changed since he initially became leader, as indicated by most of his Shadow Cabinet resigning. Surely the Tories would be delighted to have a continuing dysfunctional opposition? Every time Corbyn speaks they can remind him that he doesn't even have the support of his own MPs.
    It's predicated on the real contest being the slightly longer game of what sort of Labour Party contests the next election which is expected in short order I think. But clearly I'm no parliamentary strategist.
    posted by Abiezer at 8:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    We seem to have ended up in a situation where if England and Wales declared independence from the United Kingdom, leaving Scotland and Northern Ireland as a rump UK within the EU and them out of it, Spain would presumably be happy (because Scotland/NI won't be the ones doing the separating), but if Scotland and/or NI declare independence from a Brexiting UK specifically to remain in the EU, Spain won't be happy. Forget sending cheques to Podemos, Scotland should be sending them to... UKIP? Oh Christ.

    I seem to remember - but I'm sure as hell not going to look it up - that UKIP's view on Scottish independence is that the Scottish parliament be dissolved and Scotland put back under complete control by Westminster. So put those chequebooks away, everyone.

    It's very interesting to contemplate that if reverse-indy happened and Wangland left the UK, then the result would be identical to Scotland leaving and rejoining/remaining in the EU. One would be acceptable to (and in fact un-vetoable by) the Spanish; the other would be unacceptble and vetoed, despite them both leading to exactly the same outcome. Which leaves me more convinced that there will be a path through this, and a formula can be created, that threads this particular needle.
    posted by Devonian at 8:51 AM on June 29, 2016


    Labour MP Jess Phillips has confronted Jeremy Corbyn’s chief strategist, shouting “This is f***ing personal” at him in Westminster yesterday.

    The angry confrontation took place in one of the most public spots in parliament building as tensions in the Labour party are growing increasingly fractured and MPs attempt to topple Mr Corbyn.

    The angry exchange between the MP and Strategy and Communications Chief Seumas Milne reportedly happened after a Corbyn supporter appeared to threaten online to ‘take a blow torch’ to Ms Phillips’ neck.

    She later tweeted that the expression 'take a blow torch to her neck' may have been a slang term to imply she had a 'brass neck' rather than a threat to her safety.


    >>>Apparently saying you could put a blow torch to my neck is a commonly used phrase for "brass neck" not ever heard before, so not a threat
    posted by My Dad at 8:53 AM on June 29, 2016


    Is 2016 sufficiently demented that it could include a big Lib Dem comeback? (Probably not)

    They've come out clearly for keeping in the EU, and some reports suggest they've gained members because of it. If they offer a reforming message they could pick up a lot of disaffected voters. It would be great were it to happen.
    posted by Emma May Smith at 8:54 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    OK I'm updating my predictions slightly in line with current events. Tory PM calls a general election contrasting a hugely shrunken Leave offer with the sour grapes Remainers on the other side. Tory shires grumble but there's enough there to make the sovereignty fiends suck it up in exchange for an end to Corbyno-Scot-Nat terror or whatever. Lib Dems soak up some angry Remainers in the cities. Farage and co gobble up more voters in Labour regions who thought they were getting an end to globalisation. Labour Party collapses for a generation or gets replaced by something else. Unless it's split by then which is now looking possible too. Or unless Corbyn holds on and campaigns on a Left Brexit platform, in which case Labour holds on to a bit more of its heartlands but loses the cities and university towns thanks to resurgent Lib Dems, with the same ultimate result.
    posted by Mocata at 8:58 AM on June 29, 2016


    Strategy and Communications Chief Seumas Milne

    Talking about Milne, here's from a ITV journo: Just been told Corbyn has said in the last day he wants out, he's had enough. But his Dir of Comms @SeumasMilne told him he should stay.

    And on the other side of the plank, Gove's wife apparently just cc:d the wrong folks on a mail with instructions for her husband (not linking, it'll be everywhere soon anyway).
    posted by effbot at 9:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Is 2016 sufficiently demented that it could include a big Lib Dem comeback? (Probably not)


    Membership is above 2010 levels, vote share in the 2016 local elections was up 4%, and we got 43 more councillors. I fully expect that vote share to be replicated in our number of MPs, leading to an 0.32 of an MP in the House of Commons.

    Exciting times for the party, and also for experimental portable life support systems!
    posted by MattWPBS at 9:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Oh. This is politics prosecuted as an exciting new form of comedy, it's just that being in the middle of it we can't see the joke.
    posted by Grangousier at 9:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    leading to an 0.32 of an MP in the House of Commons.

    nicknamed Douglas Third
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:06 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


    The Sarah Vine/Gove email reveals that politicians strike deals and bargain with one another before supporting one another's leadership bids. Incendiary stuff.
    posted by Mocata at 9:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    leading to an 0.32 of an MP in the House of Commons.

    Could timeshare with another party that needs 0.68 of an MP. Or do locum cover in the Shadow Cabinet.
    posted by Grangousier at 9:20 AM on June 29, 2016


    Apparently the reason for the Jess Philips/Seamus Milne shouting match was him telling her "don’t take it personally" with regards to the blowtorch comment. This could be down to misunderstandings.

    Jess Philips was a close friend of Jo Cox, and she thinks she's just had a threat of violence after her friend has been murdered. She thinks she's just been told by Seamus Milne not to take a threat of violence personally. She understandably blows her top at him.

    Seamus Milne is familiar with "could put a blowtorch to your neck" being a colloquialism for "you've got a brass neck", and assumes Jess Philips is too. He thinks she's complaining about normal Twitter level politician bashing, and that he's telling her not to take that so personally.



    I can't say I've ever heard it, but Google does show it can be used that way. Looks like mainly in Scotland, which would make sense given Seamus Milne's family is Scottish.
    posted by MattWPBS at 9:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    A London friend said "I guess I should throw my lot in with the LibDems. But they're not due to be forgiven for (checks watch) another ten years".

    The major problem with centrist politics at the moment, well apart from all the fucking chaos, is that it's impossible for Unionist parties to play coalitions with the SNP in Westminster. The LibDems weren't traditionally Unionist in Scotland, but became so quite recently, and there are consistent rumours that the Scottish Labs are considering their position on this - the SNP's results show that non-Unionist parties do attract Unionist votes, and the point is seemingly increasingly moot given Labour's current prospects.

    But at this time, nobody has a clue when the next election will be, what the parties will look like, what the political environment will be like or what the manifestos will be.

    Most interesting aspect of the Gove email is the implication that it's really Dacre/Murdoch who want specific promises in return for backing Boris. I'm not quite sure exactly what those are - I assume it's for full nativism.
    posted by Devonian at 9:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    >Apparently the reason for the Jess Philips/Seamus Milne shouting match

    Sorry, I had forgotten this, from last December:

    Labour MP Jess Phillips will 'knife Corbyn in the front' if he damages party

    But then there's this, from May 31:

    Labour MP Jess Phillips receives more than 600 rape threats in one night
    posted by My Dad at 9:30 AM on June 29, 2016


    I note that in Farage's speech to the European Parliament he says it would be better for the UK to leave the EU even without any trade deals at all, rather than maintain the status quo. A friend says "thus turning Britain into feudal Japan at the height of the Tokugawa Shogunate"
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:33 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


    The land of the setting sun.
    posted by Grangousier at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    > Do you have any sort of source for that at all? Because it sure looks like it's happening, even if article 50 won't be invoked immediately. I don't see anyone actually in the political arena seriously arguing against ever invoking it, but maybe things have changed since I looked at the news?

    At this point we know it's not getting invoked until October, unless something truly bizarre happens.

    If Conservative MPs spurn Boris and nominate two remain-supporting leaders, it's not getting invoked at all.

    If they nominate one leaver and one remainer, Tory party members will vote overwhelmingly for the leaver, but at that point they'll have to figure out once and for all whether the PM can invoke Article 50 unilaterally. If he needs Parliament, it isn't getting invoked any time soon. This Parliament will not vote for leaving unless their backs are against the wall.

    The point isn't that it's certainly not going to happen; the point is that there's no reason whatsoever to invoke it right now until this big mess gets untangled, and I think there are only about three people in the UK who (a) have a shot at running the country and (b) would press that button knowing how high the stakes are. The poisoned chalice is a real thing.
    posted by savetheclocktower at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    > "Which leaves me more convinced that there will be a path through this, and a formula can be created, that threads this particular needle."

    While I do not expect it to happen, it would be super-interesting if the most sensible way forward turns out to be England declaring that it is seceding from Scotland.
    posted by kyrademon at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016


    Aye, I don't think anyone would take 'knife him in the front' as a serious physical threat. 'Knife in the back' is a pretty well known saying, and it's not much of a twist on that at all. It didn't lead to the same seeming misunderstanding as 'I could put a blowtorch to your neck'.
    posted by MattWPBS at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016


    The sun never sets on the British Empire, if you include the Pitcairn Islands
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Oh, and one more thing:

    Why was the question “Can the PM invoke Article 50 unilaterally” not somehow settled before this fucking referendum? Is there no process for figuring that out? I get that the government wasn't going to have any sort of a Brexit strategy, but surely the question of “who is allowed to make this decision” is simple enough to have been determined beforehand… right?
    posted by savetheclocktower at 9:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Milne is not the police. He is not responsible for anyone's security arrangements so it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'
    posted by Coda Tronca at 9:38 AM on June 29, 2016


    Maybe someone could write down how the government is supposed to work in the form of a constitution HAHA JK LOL
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:39 AM on June 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


    Why was the question “Can the PM invoke Article 50 unilaterally” not somehow settled before this fucking referendum?

    Because the leave campaign was run by a bunch of ex-journalists turned politicians who don’t do detail.
    posted by pharm at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Wait a second. Look at that date. I caused all of this, didn't I?
    posted by Apocryphon at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2016


    it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'

    It matters on a human being level if you get what you believe to be death threats and your colleague is all like "so?"
    posted by billiebee at 9:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Aye, I don't think anyone would take 'knife him in the front' as a serious physical threat.

    Especially given the context; she wasn't exactly yelling it to someone, she was telling Oven Jones in an interview that all that mattered to her was winning the next election, because if she didn't have that attitude she would just be a Tory enabler, followed by "If it’s making Jeremy better I’ll roll my sleeves up -- if that’s not going to happen, and I’ve said that to him and his staff to their faces, the day that it becomes that you are hurting us more than you are helping us, I will... I won’t knife you in the back, I’ll knife you in the front."
    posted by effbot at 9:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    I didn't think there was any particular doubt about the PM's ability to deliver Article 50. He or she gets on the flight to Brussels - or just picks up the phone - and from that point on, nothing the UK can say or do will change anything. Parliament has no practical power in this matter, except to force a general election through a vote of no confidence by a suitable majority, and nobody wants that right now.

    Barring major surprises - and god knows, who'll rule those out - there'll be a November election with clear manifesto promises on Article 50 delivery timing, and that'll be that. Unless there's no Parliamentary majority, in which case... oh, make the rest of it up yourselves.
    posted by Devonian at 9:53 AM on June 29, 2016


    Another display of top-notch leadership by Corbyn.
    posted by zachlipton at 10:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    > I didn't think there was any particular doubt about the PM's ability to deliver Article 50. He or she gets on the flight to Brussels - or just picks up the phone - and from that point on, nothing the UK can say or do will change anything.

    Depends on whom you ask:
    It is being said that the government can trigger Brexit under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, merely by sending a note to Brussels. This is wrong. Article 50 says: “Any member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.” The UK’s most fundamental constitutional requirement is that there must first be the approval of its parliament.
    That said, the EU seems so fed up that at this point I fear they'll claim it's been invoked as soon as anyone in leadership says the words "article " and "fifty" in the same sentence, regardless of context.
    posted by savetheclocktower at 10:04 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]




    Labour preparing to split from Labour.

    The Tories fuck the UK, nobody wants to lead it, and Labour decides right about now would be a good time to implode. Fuck the PLP.
    posted by Talez at 10:08 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Could it be like those glam rock bands, where different members have gone on tour with sets of ringers? So we could have Jeremy Corbyn's Labour and we could have Yvette Cooper's Labour and so forth.
    posted by Grangousier at 10:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Rod Torfulson’s Labour featuring Herman Menderchuck
    posted by savetheclocktower at 10:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Or one could be Labour and the other could Leybyr.
    posted by Grangousier at 10:12 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Coda Tronca: Milne is not the police. He is not responsible for anyone's security arrangements so it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'


    If it's a misunderstanding, you've got no point.

    If it's not a misunderstanding, it matters a lot. He's the party's Executive Director of Strategy and Communications, you would at the least expect him to be a bit sensitive when dealing with a friend of an MP who's been murdered by a member of the public, has had hundreds of rape threats, and has just been threatened with physical violence. You know, just on the basis of being a decent human being, never mind holding a senior position in the party.
    posted by MattWPBS at 10:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


    Karl Remarks: A plan to rescue western democracy from the ignorant masses

    Universal suffrage is at the root of our problems. Some people are better than others at certain things like sports or cooking, why should it be any different in politics? We need to find a way of translating this into electoral mechanisms that retain the spirit of democracy without jeopardising us with its unpredictability. We can adopt a coefficient system where the value of your vote is multiplied by a coefficient that is proportional to your intelligence and understanding of politics. For example, if you’re a smart, successful, liberal professional, your vote gets multiplied by 10. If you’re a poor, stupid, unemployed person, it gets multiplied by 0.1. This will immediately level the playing field, ensuring favourable outcomes.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:19 AM on June 29, 2016


    If it's Corbyn and Milne on bongos then it's Labour
    posted by brilliantmistake at 10:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]




    Universal suffrage is at the root of our problems. Some people are better than others at certain things like sports or cooking, why should it be any different in politics? We need to find a way of translating this into electoral mechanisms that retain the spirit of democracy without jeopardising us with its unpredictability. We can adopt a coefficient system where the value of your vote is multiplied by a coefficient that is proportional to your intelligence and understanding of politics. For example, if you’re a smart, successful, liberal professional, your vote gets multiplied by 10. If you’re a poor, stupid, unemployed person, it gets multiplied by 0.1. This will immediately level the playing field, ensuring favourable outcomes.

    I'm pissed at the racist xenophobes as much as any social democrat but this has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.
    posted by Talez at 10:24 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


    That Sara Vine email to husband Michael Gove.
    Macbeth:
    If we should fail?

    Lady Macbeth:
    We fail?
    But screw your courage to the sticking place,
    And we'll not fail.
    (Macbeth Act 1, scene 7, 59–61)
    More here
    posted by Mister Bijou at 10:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Milne is not the police. He is not responsible for anyone's security arrangements so it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'

    In order to end violence against women and harassment against female public figures, men must be supportive. At the very least this means taking their concerns seriously.
    posted by My Dad at 10:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


    > I'm pissed at the racist xenophobes as much as any social democrat but this has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.

    Poe's Law applies, but I'm 99% sure this is satire.
    posted by savetheclocktower at 10:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    "Karl Remarks"
    posted by My Dad at 10:46 AM on June 29, 2016


    I'm pissed at the racist xenophobes as much as any social democrat but this has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.

    Karl reMarks makes "occasional forays into satire", where "occasional" means "almost always", and writes with a middle-eastern angle (he's of Lebanese-Iraqi descent). Some examples (all great): How would we report the EU referendum if it were happening in the Middle East?, Unprecedented images of Western people looking just like you and me, Sound like an expert with these phrases about Middle East politics, and Interactive diagram of geopolitical relationships in the Middle East (note the instructions).

    But on the not very good at politics theme, after reading too many Twitter comments today, I think a valid check would be to see if people think the reason Labour currently has 232 seats and UKIP only 1 is that Labour got 232 times as many votes and/or has 232 times as many members. If you say yes, you'll have to watch an information video and pass a simple test before being allowed to vote. Using your own pen is ok.
    posted by effbot at 10:53 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Well, it certainly has a better ring to it than "Friedrich LetslookatitfromallEngels."
    posted by zombieflanders at 10:53 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


    For example, if you’re a smart, successful, liberal professional, your vote gets multiplied by 10. If you’re a poor, stupid, unemployed person, it gets multiplied by 0.1.

    I don't know about the UK, but in the US it's the conservatives who call for banning certain people from voting.
    posted by dirigibleman at 10:57 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    The Guardian's report on Prime Minister’s Questions is worth a read:
    Two dead men walking who would have rather been anywhere but in the House of Commons. One went down with some dignity. The other just went down. Not even the 40 members of the parliamentary Labour party who apparently do still have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn could be bothered to raise a cheer when he stood at the dispatch box for prime minister’s questions. He rose in almost total silence, his face twisted in anger: the dividing line between stubborn ambition and personal principle has become increasingly opaque.

    Corbyn began by expressing concern about the fate of Siemens, Visa and Vodafone following last week’s referendum. David Cameron couldn’t quite believe what he was hearing. Since when had the Labour leader been the compassionate voice of big business? Slowly, Corbyn got to the point. With the UK’s credit rating having been downgraded and so so much uncertainty in the economy, jobs were being put at risk. “Yours and mine both,” quipped Dave. “But we’re not here for a share-up.”
    posted by zachlipton at 11:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Literally the only thing I'm enjoying about this whole situation is Cameron's I-no-longer-give-a-toss-about-politicking shtick producing occasional moments of incisive brilliance.
    posted by Dysk at 11:48 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


    I think David Cameron's glib chuckling and guffawing snideness has highlighted exactly how awful our ruling classes are in exactly the ways we always knew they were. And only served to heighten the suspicion there's going to be no repercussions in the slightest for any of them personally, and everything will carry on just as before in the Conservative party, forever, and ever and ever and ever and ever and

    While we all suffocate down here in the mud they've churned up beneath their hooves.
    posted by dng at 11:58 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


    The Guardian's report on Prime Minister’s Questions is worth a read:

    It's not a report exactly, it's a regular column (The Politics Sketch) by John Crace that mixes reporting with ironic commentary.
    posted by My Dad at 12:13 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Leave donor plans new party to replace Ukip – without Farage.
    “It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”
    * Throws up*.
    posted by adamvasco at 12:22 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Spending your way to the truth.
    posted by dng at 12:28 PM on June 29, 2016


    Parliamentary sketches are a very old UK newspaper tradition, and good sketch writers are highly prized.

    It's also very difficult.
    posted by Devonian at 12:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Literally the only thing I'm enjoying about this whole situation is Cameron's I-no-longer-give-a-toss-about-politicking shtick producing occasional moments of incisive brilliance.

    Yep. It's like if he wasn't such a cunt about poor people he'd be such a witty and charming centrist that people could get behind. He appears to be so rational and sane but yet he willingly goes along with driving disabled and poor people to suicide.
    posted by Talez at 12:37 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    He's actually the worst kind of person, as it turns out - he never even believed in what he was doing.
    posted by Dysk at 12:45 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    This whole thing is David Cameron's fault. He might well be the most incompetent politician of this entire century, unless the rest of the century keeps going down on its inexorable way.
    posted by dng at 12:46 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


    I think David Cameron's glib chuckling and guffawing snideness has highlighted exactly how awful our ruling classes are in exactly the ways we always knew they were. And only served to heighten the suspicion there's going to be no repercussions in the slightest for any of them personally, and everything will carry on just as before in the Conservative party, forever, and ever and ever and ever and ever and

    I got a similar sense watching the EU leaders press conferences too. The late-night one had an awful lot of laughter. They spent some time at one standing around joking about other countries doing as well as Luxembourg in international football tournaments. They should instead of considering whether the EU shares any responsibility for this debacle.

    As the EU is rushing to take a hard line about negotiations with the UK, it is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that there is anything at all that could be wrong with the EU that could cause so many people to reject it or that it could in any way improve. Juncker specifically described what will happen as "implementation [of Brexit] not innovation." People seem to want some innovation out of the EU, and it's digging in its heels more than ever. At another point, Juncker refused to accept the premise that immigration was a primary concern for Leave voters and instead blamed Brussels-bashers.

    When a reporter responds to that by asking basically "ok, but what do you plan to do about stuff like migration and the economy that people are so worried about?," Tusk was initially pretty much speechless, saying it would take two days to explain how the EU can tackle these issues. The President of the European Council ought to have a better answer at hand to a question that was fundamental to the Leave campaign.
    posted by zachlipton at 12:51 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    The EU no longer have to concern themselves with whatever stuff people in the UK are worried about.

    ...and suddenly we're all accepting and taking it as read that of course immigration needs tackling? Have the racists of UKIP and the xenophobes of Leave really shifted the Overton window that m? Deal with the issues that cause people to blame immigration, don't accept the logic that immigration is cause for concern in itself.
    posted by Dysk at 12:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [37 favorites]




    Oh certainly, and I'm not arguing by any means that the EU should abandon free movement or cater to racists. But it's not just the UK; there are plenty of folks riled up in France and Holland now too. Just promising more of the same from the EU is not going to satisfy them, nor will it satisfy critics from the left. The EU needs an answer to existential threats to its existence, and it needs an answer to the people who see it as responsible for the problems in their lives. There are answers to that, ones the Remain campaign wasn't strong enough at selling.

    When millions of people are loudly proclaiming that they see EU membership as a bad thing, yes, I think the EU should consider why and have a response to counter that.
    posted by zachlipton at 1:10 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]




    Ugh, Malcolm Pearson. Somehow, I had managed to forget he was in the Lords.
    posted by skybluepink at 1:22 PM on June 29, 2016


    Yeah, the problem is that not enough economic growth is being captured and redistributed to the poorer deciles. And a lot of the Left has being saying that the solution is to shrink the economy (which ending free trade certainly will), or even worse, keep free trade but ending the free movement of labor within that free market. It just *boggles* me when the supposed internationalists want to lock labor into the tiny little boxes of one country. If the problem is downward pressure on wages, then increase the minimum wage. Hell, fight for minimum income.

    And of course the biggest problem is that quite often it is the people who would benefit from these changes that hate them worst. Going by the election maps I looked at, a whole lot of the people that are screaming that Polish people are taking their jobs and voted Leave have been voting for years for the people who have been slowly destroying that redistribution. And a whole lot of them have been screaming about chavs or foreigners living on state money and demanding that benefits be reduced. Until you convince an actual voting majority of your country of the value of socialism, there just isn't going to be progress.

    And sadly, a lot of the cause seems to be that people will hurt themselves, just as long as they can be sure the people that aren't of their tribe are hurt worse.
    posted by tavella at 1:25 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]




    Sounds like they're going with Angela Eagle who voted for the Iraq war and against Chilcot. These are indeed the genius strategists who can lead Labour to victory!
    posted by Abiezer at 1:49 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    This whole thing is David Cameron's fault. He might well be the most incompetent politician of this entire century, unless the rest of the century keeps going down on its inexorable way.

    After the vote, there was this bit making the rounds about how clever he really was, to stick it to Boris or whomever by resigning, and making them the ones to implement this mess that they supposedly wanted. And I thought that sounded reasonable. Maybe there was something to it.

    But yesterday I read that when this was all being set up, Nicola Sturgeon had called on Call Me Dave to require the approval of all regions in order for the referendum to pass. And then I realized that Cameron truly was a dolt. He could have given the euroskeptics the referendum they wanted, and by putting Sturgeon's requirements in place, guaranteed his own success. Cameron would have made it impossible for the euroskeptics to win, and would have likely shut up that debate for years.

    To me it was a no-brainer. Which Dave didn't have the brains to latch onto. Yikes.

    Granted, there was likely more to it than just this, but still.
    posted by Capt. Renault at 1:53 PM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


    Pretty sure Eagle's the stalking horse, but God, I hope Wallasey deselects her anyway.
    posted by skybluepink at 1:54 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    The conservatives in Parliament have been one hundred percent behind the message of "It's the will of the people, the next cabinet will carry out that will".

    My hope is that they're doing so because they expect Boris in the next cabinet will have to go "Well on reflection, I feel that after, defining all the latin mumble steps, that are required latin mumble and having now, set a clear path, we need to agree, as a latin mumble country to press the button latin mumble."

    In which case, the vote goes up again, remain wins and everyone can blame Boris for absolutely everything, saving Cameron some face and the board is generally reset.

    I'm holding onto that hope so dearly that I fear I may crush it.
    posted by Static Vagabond at 2:10 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


    All sides of Remain should also be laying the rhetorical groundwork to undermine the legitimacy of a future PM invoking Article 50 without a confidence vote in Parliament.

    If that happens, the UK (or Greater England or whatever) will effectively be an elective dictatorship as the PM will just have demonstrated that they can get away with making a major decision without, you know, getting a law passed.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 2:19 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I also kind of hope that someone is quietly looking into the reserve powers of the Crown. Just in case.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 2:23 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Turn it off and on again.
    posted by vbfg at 2:26 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]




    I also kind of hope that someone is quietly looking into the reserve powers of the Crown. Just in case.

    Just in case what?
    posted by Coda Tronca at 2:35 PM on June 29, 2016


    Jamie Reid's letter.

    Wow. Just wow.

    If Labour politicos could be as articulate all the time as they are when they're telling Corbyn to fuck off I might die on a barricade for them.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    "Shame" called in Lords as UKIP bench call for EU nationals to be used as hostages in discussions with Brussels

    Dear fucking god.

    I literally have no words for this perambulatory ordure.

    Using people as hostages?

    Couldn't they even try to be human beings? Pretend to walk upright?

    They wave the fucking flag in our faces, but don't understand the first thing about being British.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Just in case what?

    Constitutionally that is for the Queen to decide. But if, say, it became clear that a good chunk of the Leave voters were misled, deceived or thought they were casting meaningless protest votes; and a far-right PM is attempting to make major decisions without the confidence of Parliament?
    posted by tivalasvegas at 3:26 PM on June 29, 2016


    Yeah no. The Queen can intervene in politics only if she agrees to have her head chopped off. That's what we agreed in the Glorious Revolution and that's how it goes. Sorry but even in the case of Brexit we can't compromise that important constitutional principle.
    posted by Mocata at 3:33 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Well, she'd obviously quickly abdicate so King Charles could partake in that particular ceremonial duty, as is traditional.
    posted by dng at 3:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    The Crown, not the Queen. The Queen embodies the Crown, but can't impose her whim on it.

    99% of the time it works, we're just living through the other 1%.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:37 PM on June 29, 2016


    Charles would probably not be King Charles incidentally.
    King Charles's have not been very successful, it's expected that he would use a different name when he becomes king.
    Possibly his middle name. Arthur.
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Talking of Charles, cutting off heads, and monumentally stupid decisions, did you know there is still an Earl of Strafford?
    posted by Emma May Smith at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Let's face it, he can't get out of being Charles III now. We all expect it. It's a case of nomenclature is destiny.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2016


    It is like I'm playing poker and I'm out of the hand, but my best friend is still in. Everyone at the table can see he's got nothing, but he won't fold. That's how I feel.
    posted by humanfont at 3:46 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    If he calls himself King Arthur after this there'll only be his fucking plants that don't laugh at him.
    posted by vbfg at 3:48 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    They do anyway. Plant laughter is difficulty to detect. Amazingly ironic, plants.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Woo, I'm a bargaining chip! Maybe someone will at least notice that I fucking exist now...
    posted by Dysk at 3:55 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I figure he'll be George VII.
    posted by chimaera at 3:55 PM on June 29, 2016


    Pfft. Charles III is much cooler than George VII. FFS.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:57 PM on June 29, 2016


    But VII is IV more than III. QED.
    posted by chimaera at 3:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Who wouldn't be a raffish Stuart rather than a tedious Hanover?
    posted by Grangousier at 3:59 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Royalty is multidimensional. It's not just about numbers.
    posted by Grangousier at 4:00 PM on June 29, 2016


    can't you call him chuck?
    posted by pyramid termite at 4:08 PM on June 29, 2016


    Charles reaches for the crown. The Archbishop looks unsure.

    Glances at William. Then gives the crown to Charles.


    A moment.

    CHARLES.
    It is much heavier than I thought

    He looks at William

    And from the side, bejeweled, it looks so rich
    But turn it thus, and this is what you see

    Nothing.
    -- Mike Bartlett, King Charles III
    posted by zachlipton at 4:09 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Yes. The whole thing is unravelling.

    I quite like history. In its place. In books.

    In my face, not so much.
    posted by Grangousier at 4:11 PM on June 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Royalty is multidimensional.

    So Charles 3d then?
    posted by Joey Michaels at 4:12 PM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Prob. mentioned before, but: The UN declares the UK’s austerity policies in breach of international human rights obligations. Poss. Can't be mentioned too often. Fuckers.
    posted by Grangousier at 4:15 PM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


    I like to think about the last of the Tudors, Elizabeth, as she lay dying and all around her the great crisis of succession was underway. After she died, her ring was taken from her finger and sent as fast as possible up to Scotland, to prove to James VI that he had succeeded. He hurried to London, and so saved England from chaos.

    Don't know why I like this story quite so much at the moment, but there we go.

    I moved to Scotland at Christmas, having lived in England - my England - for half a century.

    It hit me this evening that I can never go back to the England I left, because it is no longer there.
    posted by Devonian at 4:17 PM on June 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


    Kind of. Give it a few weeks. I think we need to work things out.

    Months maybe.

    We're much better at sorting shit out than our reputation would give the impression.
    posted by Grangousier at 4:21 PM on June 29, 2016


    I like to think about the last of the Tudors, Elizabeth, as she lay dying and all around her the great crisis of succession was underway. After she died, her ring was taken from her finger and sent as fast as possible up to Scotland, to prove to James VI that he had succeeded. He hurried to London, and so saved England from chaos.

    There wasn't really a crisis on the death of Elizabeth. Although the succession had been a difficult issue in earlier years, by the time Elizabeth died it was already settled. The Privy Council knew exactly what it would do and bore it through. There was no real challenger to James and he was well accepted in England. Indeed, he didn't even hurry, taking a whole month to reach London.
    posted by Emma May Smith at 4:34 PM on June 29, 2016


    Emma May Smith: "Indeed, he didn't even hurry, taking a whole month to reach London."

    Well, you know, National Rail.
    posted by Bugbread at 4:39 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Yeah no. The Queen can intervene in politics only if she agrees to have her head chopped off. That's what we agreed in the Glorious Revolution and that's how it goes. Sorry but even in the case of Brexit we can't compromise that important constitutional principle.

    Point taken, obviously it would be a last resort and she would be risking the monarchy itself. I don't think it's entirely the case however that the monarch has not been involved in politics since 1688. More like the early 19thC?

    That wouldn't be the oldest precedent broken this month; by my count that hono(u)r goes to the idea of a united kingdom itself....
    posted by tivalasvegas at 4:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]




    Oh, foo. Bloody historians, ruining a perfectly good myth.

    They do that, you know. Them and their fancy facts.

    James most certainly did NOT go down by the East Coast train line, though. He'dve got as far as Peterborough and fled back north in horror.
    posted by Devonian at 4:55 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Oh, foo. Bloody historians, ruining a perfectly good myth.

    I think we've had enough of experts.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


    As I understand it the Queen can't intervene because doing so would make the rest of the world think that the British government and entire political landscape is a fucking shambles, and God forbid anyone gets that impression!
    posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


    I don't think it's entirely the case however that the monarch has not been involved in politics since 1688. More like the early 19thC?

    /r/AskHistorians: When was the last time a British monarch got involved in politics in a meaningful way?
    posted by effbot at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Woo, I'm a bargaining chip! Maybe someone will at least notice that I fucking exist now...

    There is no "us" and "them", unless you are talking about the narrow minority of elites that are trying to run the show.
    posted by My Dad at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2016


    Well, you know, National Rail.

    I think what you're implying is that Rail travel in the Uk has or had a reputation of inefficiency, comically juxtaposing the travel speeds of 1603 with the poor performance (perceived or actual) of the British state owned rail system.

    However that nationalised rail system was called British Rail, and was privatised badly in the mid 90's whereupon it became Railtrack plus a number of privately franchised train operating companies (TOCs) and rolling stock lease companies (ROSCOs). Railtrack as an entity was responsible for major lapses in maintenance causing significant loss of life and was subsequently re nationalised as Network Rail, a wholly government owned, not for dividend company selling rail access to the same train operators.
    Those private franchised operators banded together to form ATOC the association of train operators, providing (primarily)rail revenue allocation and settlement services between Train Operating Companies. They trade under the brand National Rail and are in this way almost wholly unresponsible for actual operating railway performance.

    So bearing all that in mind I think you need to clarify precisely how you believe an association body responsible for ticketing, marketing and revenue distribution might be responsible for the journey times of monarchs in the 17th century. Or do I need to take this to MeTa!
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:04 PM on June 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


    What Brexit Means For British Food

    I don't think this is a very good article. The revolution in food and diet was happening long before the UK joined the EEC. Really it took place in the 1950s for the middle class, and slowly filtered down from there. The dependence on the EU for food is a consequence of CAP and associated tariffs, which might well change radically were the UK to leave the EU. Food could well become cheaper in the UK much like it did after the railways opened up the US west to export markets. Farming would naturally be hit, as it was then.

    However, the UK's dependence on imported food is very real. As it has been for at least 150 years. In many ways the goal of self-sufficiency that the CAP seeks to fulfill is a nonsense in the UK. We're not and can't be.
    posted by Emma May Smith at 5:22 PM on June 29, 2016


    ESTRAGON: Well, shall we Leave?
    VLADIMIR: Yes, let's Leave.
    (They do not send the Article 50 Notification.)
    -- David Allen Green
    posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


    Repeal the Corn Laws, what!
    posted by Devonian at 5:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Just this guy, y'know: "However that nationalised rail system was called British Rail."

    Ah. I apologize for mislabeling the rail system that was operating in 1603.

    ...Hold on a minute.

    Actually, my first draft used "British Rail", but I was worried someone would take offense at the anachronism. Confronted with this page, I just went with National Rail.
    posted by Bugbread at 5:47 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    To continue the derail, here's more on Britain's railway system from LRB (5 May 2016).
    posted by MetalFingerz at 5:47 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Repeal the Corn Laws, what!

    Well, I mean, if you want to have a serious discussion about it, then maybe that's a good point. The Corn Laws aren't just some stuffy old bit of history but a very relevant lesson. Are EU tariffs like a modern Corn Law? I don't really know, but you could easily make a case that they benefit wealthier landowners over poorer consumers. And if we own that neither self-sufficiency, nor preservation of traditional practices and communities, nor even the conservation of nature, are reasonable goals of farming subsidy in the UK, then the justification for the CAP and its tariffs are...what?
    posted by Emma May Smith at 5:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I can tell you when it's not the right time to hold your breath and pout like a toddler having a temper tantrum: when there's even the slimmest possibility of someone like Donald Fucking Trump being elected to be POTUS.

    Also maybe not the best time to keep pointing at your CV and hoping the disaffected rally to it.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:51 PM on June 29, 2016


    Is there a chance we can just put the people who run Old Friends Senior Dog Sanctuary in charge? Of everything, everywhere?
    posted by maxwelton at 5:54 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Well, I mean, if you want to have a serious discussion about it, then maybe that's a good point.

    best bluff-calling ever
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:01 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Wow. Just wow.

    The mix of congratulations and completely unhinged attacks by Corbynistas in his feed is quite something.
    posted by effbot at 6:02 PM on June 29, 2016


    (I shouldn't mention that the ticketing system is now so mucked up that I've had to make my last two Lon-Edi journeys without a ticket, convincing the inspector of my bona fides both times by showing him the booking email on my phone.

    I further shouldn't mention that emails are very easy to fake.)

    As for the Corn Laws - they really are an interesting and pertinent case study. And if we're looking at the geopolitics of food, we can also factor in the Irish Famine. I'm for free trade in a regulated system, but not like CAP (which I think is an over-regulated system which is free trade in name only), and I'm generally in favour of the way the EU uses regulations in trade to enforce standards outside its direct jurisdiction. I'm also against TTIP enforcing standards outside any direct jurisdiction - this stuff works if you have democratic accountability and an informed electorate, and here we run into the buffers.

    Which is why, in the end, I am so pro-EU, because it is a working model of how to manage common aims across disparate cultures. Not all that well, often, and the cultures aren't that different, and the common aims aren't well communicated, but it is a model and it does work and really what are the alternatives?
    posted by Devonian at 6:07 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    There is no "us" and "them", unless you are talking about the narrow minority of elites that are trying to run the show.

    Er, how on earth does this relate to what you were quoting? I was pointing out the the current situation is uniquely shit for immigrants (particularly EU immigrants) and everyone seems to not give a shit, while being super concerned about everyone else, including the people who put us in this mess.
    posted by Dysk at 6:12 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Er, how on earth does this relate to what you were quoting?

    I was agreeing with you... Sorry for the lack of context. I have noticed numerous times in this thread when folks, some of whom may not even live in the UK, speak of immigrants and the "other" when you are right here. But there is no difference between any of us at all. You could say that I am totally in favour of free movement, combined with a living wage.

    Anyway, Ken Loach captured the sheer brutality of labour mobility in Britain's in the movie It's a Free World.
    posted by My Dad at 6:31 PM on June 29, 2016


    Couldn't they even try to be human beings? Pretend to walk upright?

    Judging from the transcript, I suspect they're some kind of space aliens, doing their best to appear human but with rather limited reference material.
    posted by effbot at 6:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Eagle to mount Labour challenge to Corbyn

    Candidate shows strong leadership skills, ability to dismember foes with mighty talons and beak
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Reserve powers of the Crown -- careful, now.

    Word is, according to the Queen's biographer Robert Lacey, is that she is a Brexiteer, asking dinner companions "Give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of Europe."

    Now, I have no idea how true that is, but it doesn't strike me as palpably untrue. YMMV.
    posted by Capt. Renault at 8:16 PM on June 29, 2016


    Scotland, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar. There ya go Ma'am
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:36 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Interesting Graun piece by Diane Abbott on the PLP vs Labour Party membership here.

    On my first reading I mistakenly thought she'd said something like 'the PLP fear not that Corbyn will lose the General Election but that he will win it.'

    Turns out on reread that she meant the leadership election, not the general.

    Nevertheless, the idea has stuck with me. I genuinely now wonder whether significant elements in the PLP do actually do fear a potential Corbyn-led government, enough to shaft him.

    Saying 'you can't win, you can't win' over and over again is all very well but right now the only reason I can see that he can't win is that his own colleagues keep saying so. By doing so they cause it to be the case but that doesn't get us any further in understanding.

    Also - and this is a whole different thing - imagine an Abbott-led LP.
    posted by motty at 9:02 PM on June 29, 2016


    motty, would an Abbott led LP be quite so terrible? I haven't seen much of her after appearances on This Week (don't live in the UK anymore) but she seems to have attracted a lot of negative publicity of late.

    Arguably, she is no worse than many of the other likely candidates.

    Not convinced if this is years of being conditioned by politicians shifting towards the centre or not, but I have a personal impression that many who consider Corbyn unelectable do so by virtue of his hard left history and stance on many issues.
    posted by geminus at 9:25 PM on June 29, 2016


    imagine an Abbott-led LP

    We had one of those, fortunately the Libs turfed him.

    Oh wait ...
    posted by Autumn Leaf at 11:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Here's a silly question from me. If the UK leaves the EU and joins the EEA, is there not a chance that this might be better for ordinary working people in the UK?

    As an EEA member, the UK will have to implement all EU directives. Without the UK, the European institutions will have lost a voice that's consistently spoken out in favour of big business and against worker and environmental protections. Progressive voices in the EU will be louder and clearer, and the UK won't be able to hold them back with no voice in Europe. Things like the Working Time Directive opt-out will be dead, and any Tory attempts to kill the Human Rights Act will be off the table, because as an EU directive we'll have to implement it in full. It seems like this might be a win in disguise for ordinary people here.

    There is, of course, the question of EU funding for projects in the UK which will to all intents and purposes end - northern towns that are used to getting pots of money for improvements will find this a little lacking in post-Brexit England and Wales. There will be no new bus stations or public space renovations or road bypasses or trams. But that's what they voted for in order to get the immigrants out or whatever it was they wanted, so I can't feel too sorry for the likes of Barnsley and Cannock.

    I'm in favour of full political European integration and don't personally want to live in an EEA country that isn't part of the EU. But I can see where it might have some benefits in terms of the EU being able to push forward more progressive directives without the UK whining.
    posted by winterhill at 12:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Sooo they’re still banging on about restricting migration from the EU only to those with a job, and only 70% of those with a job, and they hope they can get away with it as a valid "interpretation" of the principle of freedom of movement within the single market - Boris Johnson and Theresa May aim to cut migration and stay in single market - and by the way the article has a terrible way of explaining it because it uses language that legitimizes the idea and doesn’t even challenge the inconsistencies and for instance here where it says:

    "One danger of adopting an Australian-style, points-based, immigration system is that if a work visa regime is imposed on EU countries they are likely to retaliate and impose their own visa regime on Britons wanting to live and work on the continent."

    No what it should say instead of using loaded ugly aggressive words like "retaliate" is "reciprocate", there’s a principle of reciprocity in the single market, quite a big difference from "retaliation".

    It also fails to clarify that this plan would be even more demanding of special treatment than what the UK was already granted in the February deal so it’s not that there is a "a danger of adopting" this model it’s that it is highly unlikely to be accepted, as once again everyone’s been reminded just yesterday - UK cannot have 'single market a la carte', say EU leaders - 'Leaders made it crystal clear that access to the single market requires acceptance of all four freedoms - including freedom of movement'. Who knows, that might all change, if everything is renegotiated from scratch who knows what that will lead to, but it’s baffling how that’s not even referenced in the Guardian article.

    Some of the comments on Twitter linking to the article:
    Apparently this is the "cake and eating it" scenario our potential new leaders think they can get...

    So UK subjects would get full access to EU but not vice versa? May I laugh how delusional!

    Boris Johnson and Theresa May aim to cut migration and stay in single market, defy gravity and breed unicorns

    Boris Johnson in full having-cake-and-eating-it-too mode, reality need not apply

    Good luck with that !!!

    They will also ensure English success in the Euros, Eurovision and ensure a unicorn for every English child...

    #Tories can't be more cynical: They now want access to single market without free movement of EU workers

    Can anyone make sense out of this? Reciprocity would mean British pensioners barred from Spain, right?

    How cynical

    Really hope we don't lose free movement of people across Europe.
    posted by bitteschoen at 12:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    >: But I can see where it might have some benefits in terms of the EU being able to push forward more progressive directives without the UK whining.

    What worries me, as a (dual) citizen of another EU country who someday wants to live in a different EU country, is that the EU may see this as a reproach of the "European Project" and, thus, dial back some of the more progressive goals. Looking at this from afar—I don't live in my other country of citizenship—I don't know how realistic this is. A lot of the news articles I've been reading, especially as of late, have seemed to dance around this point.

    I feel like what the EU is doing is a good thing but the messaging has been lost. OTOH, it's really, really simple to do bumper sticker politics (The EU is coming for your high-watt tea kettle; VOTE UKIP!) and inversely difficult to explain, in long paragraphs, why no that's not what is really meant and here's how it benefits you. (Not to say that the EU are perfect beings. It is run by fallible humans, after all. But I also don't ascribe either malice or stupidity to their motives and I genuinely believe that most humans are good and are trying to do well.)
    posted by fireoyster at 12:32 AM on June 30, 2016


    Winterhill, that's the flicker of hope I'm clinging to. No idea how realistic it is, but it doesn't seem like anyone else has a better idea right now....
    posted by Helga-woo at 12:35 AM on June 30, 2016


    You can't put the Queen in charge she'd stack the front benches with corgis what the hell am i saying? by all means put the queen in charge
    posted by um at 12:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Why giving notice of withdrawal from the EU requires act of parliament (warning: worked for me, but might be paywalled for some)

    David Allen Green/Jack of Kent seems to regard Pannick quite highly
    posted by geminus at 1:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Here's a silly question from me. If the UK leaves the EU and joins the EEA, is there not a chance that this might be better for ordinary working people in the UK?

    Not a silly question at all. Is there a "chance"? The truth is that nobody knows. So much depends on factors that may not even be known at this time that it's unpredictable. It's a giant, massive and possibly irreversible economic/political/social experiment. In the end, the UK may or may not have a chance to be better off than as a member of the EU. An entire country (OK, actually just half of it) made a huge gamble on its future, mostly based on lies and uncertainties and without a concrete plan.

    But it'll be totally worth it!

    Meanwhile the rest of Europe is gawking in anticipation to see whether it'll be the trainwreck in slow-motion predicted by the experts or something else.
    posted by sour cream at 1:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    "Accuracy is snake oil for pussies":- on the charms of Dominic Cummings - vote leave's campaign director.
    posted by rongorongo at 1:18 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Why giving notice of withdrawal from the EU requires act of parliament (warning: worked for me, but might be paywalled for some)

    Paywalled for me too but people are quoting various sections of it on Twitter. And yeah, I'm not anywhere near legally knowledgeable enough to weigh on the detail of this, but Lord Pannick QC's views carry some serious weight.

    Oh, well. At least we as a country have a strong consensus on how we constitutionally reconcile the verdict of an 'advisory' referendum with legislative processes in the Houses of Parliament! And I'm sure there won't be any backlash at all if it gets voted down and fails. After all, the country is clearly educated in the processes of parliamentary democracy, and would never be building up to a frothing rage in newspaper comments sections already about how taking it to Parliament wouldn't be respecting democracy, would it?

    Oh.

    Well, at least we've got a stable and Government with a clear direction where everyone's at least broadly agreed on the direction we need to take with... oh.

    Well, at least the Opposition is... oh.

    Well, at least Leave had a well thought through and detailed plan to... oh.

    Well, at least we won't end up with a huge backlash against the inevitable messy and tangled fallout from this, in which large chunks of the population feel that their voice wasn't heard, their vote wasn't respected, and the only way forward is to ditch the weak and pointless processes of government and march bravely on with a Strong Leader who doesn't get pointlessly hung up by listening to 'experts' and 'facts' and 'parliamentary processes', and who'll lead us in an authoritarian crusade against foreigners, the elite, the establishment, and all British people who aren't real and decent British people. That could never happen here.
    posted by Catseye at 1:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


    So, the lawyers are mobilising to make the case that Article 50 cannot be invoked without an Act of Parliament & right now Parliament is in no shape to make any such determination as both major parties are in the middle of leadership challenges of one sort or another. The long grass awaits.

    Oh, and Gove has just announced that he’s standing for the leadership. Team Boris are predictably outraged. The idea of either of them in the role of the PM fills me with horror frankly.
    posted by pharm at 1:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


    A lot of Macbeth references on the Twitters. It's suggested Gove is standing because his wife thinks it's a good idea.
    posted by Grangousier at 2:06 AM on June 30, 2016


    I suspect many political careers are really power partnerships, with one as the figurehead and the other making deals and playing the PR / diplomacy game behind the scenes.
    posted by pharm at 2:10 AM on June 30, 2016


    Tweet from Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun: "A text arrives from a senior Team Boris figure: "Gove is a c*** who set this up form start". This is going to be bloody."
    posted by Grangousier at 2:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Oh hey, the choices get worse: Theresa May's in, too!
    posted by skybluepink at 2:12 AM on June 30, 2016


    If the UK leaves the EU and joins the EEA, is there not a chance that this might be better for ordinary working people in the UK?

    Define "ordinary working people" - am I included in that as an EU migrant? As someone who is poor but not currently in work? Because if your definition does include people like me, it's a lot less likely. Theoretically possible, yes, but given that the UK is adamant about mistreating EU migrants (observe the rather stark difference in benefits eligibility at present, where EU membership in theory ought to mean them being the same) and there are incredibly murmurs about freedom of movement being on the table for discussions.

    The whole Brexit campaign was fought on the basis of making life shittier for people like me. It's unlikely to somehow get better instead.
    posted by Dysk at 2:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


    For all her political faults (from my POV), I’ll take May over Gove or Boris any day of the week. She has the distinct advantage of actually being competent, which appears to be in short supply with the rest of them. That’s probably the quality that the country is going to need in the next couple of years over all others.

    (Oh, and she says she’s abandoned any attempt to pull out of the ECHR, because there’s no Parliamentary majority for it, which presumably means that a bunch of Tory MPs have told her that’s a red line for them. So that’s something.)
    posted by pharm at 2:17 AM on June 30, 2016


    The current rather abject procession of nobodies running for various positions in the political parties is a distracting sideshow.

    I am increasingly convinced that what we are watching here is the end of the United Kingdom as a country. Regardless of what happens with Brexit, Scotland is already half-way out of the door. When part of a country bypasses its national government and starts negotiating with other countries directly as Sturgeon has started doing with the EU, it's not a small matter. Others know more about the situation in Northern Ireland than I do, but I can't see the status quo being preserved there either.

    Taking a step back from the frankly dull party political infighting that's going on and looking at the wider picture, the needs and desires of the different parts of the UK have never been more divergent. Scotland wants to be a democratic country within the EU. London wants to stay within the EU. The hinterlands of England, for whatever reason, want out. An intelligent political leader would be looking at this and working out ways of managing the orderly transition from a single country which is no longer working to a devolved structure, with Scotland out as an independent EU country, Northern Ireland in a radically different relationship with what's left of the UK and greater autonomy for London.

    Nothing good will ever come of forcing the country to remain together against itself - just more social division, more tension, more economic uncertainty. It's time to go for a quick and orderly divorce and self-determination for the nations and regions. I never thought I would live to see the end of my own country in its present form, but it is looking more and more likely that I will.
    posted by winterhill at 2:19 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


    (Oh, and she says she’s abandoned any attempt to pull out of the ECHR, because there’s no Parliamentary majority for it, which presumably means that a bunch of Tory MPs have told her that’s a red line for them. So that’s something.)

    Or she is, as you say, competent, and isn't campaigning on a basis of "I'm going to fuck your remaining rights off" even if that is what she intends to do.

    See also: snoopers' charter.
    posted by Dysk at 2:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Hey, anyone want a depressing read? Here's the Economist Intelligence Unit assessment of the Brexit impact.
    posted by MattWPBS at 2:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Regardless of what happens with Brexit, Scotland is already half-way out of the door.
    What do you call a Scotsman who is half way out the door?
    ..."Hamish!"
    (meet Hamish).
    posted by rongorongo at 2:22 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Nobody wants Borisconi because of what he's done. The alternatives are Gove and May.

    Good luck everyone.
    posted by vbfg at 2:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Today's (30 June 2016) UK newspaper front pages
    posted by Mister Bijou at 2:42 AM on June 30, 2016


    By the way, I don't know if anyone else got it, but the regular YouGov questionnaire the other day included the question "If there were to be a national emergency, who would you prefer to take over? a) The Queen; b) The Police; c) The Army; d); Parliament".

    (That's from memory, and I might be getting the list of nominees confused with Bands of the 70s, but it was definitely a very slightly veiled sounding of people's opinions on martial law.)
    posted by Grangousier at 2:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


    And if we own that neither self-sufficiency, nor preservation of traditional practices and communities, nor even the conservation of nature, are reasonable goals of farming subsidy in the UK, then the justification for the CAP and its tariffs are...what?

    From the treaty:

    to increase productivity, by promoting technical progress and ensuring the optimum use of the factors of production, in particular labour;
    to ensure a fair standard of living for the agricultural Community;
    to stabilise markets;
    to secure availability of supplies;
    to provide consumers with food at reasonable prices.

    UK self sufficiency isn't a goal of the CAP because it's a Common Agricultural Policy not a BAP. Same goes for any member state.
    posted by ersatz at 2:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


    The EU kind of abandoned most of those goals decades ago though. Now it’s mostly the combination of a basic income for marginal smallholders and a covert wealth transfer to large landowners.
    posted by pharm at 3:10 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Here's a silly question from me. If the UK leaves the EU and joins the EEA, is there not a chance that this might be better for ordinary working people in the UK?

    I agree with this by and large. It's bad for the UK government's leverage but as the UK tends to pull the EU in a regressive direction, may not be so bad for the people

    Dysk -
    Define "ordinary working people" - am I included in that as an EU migrant? As someone who is poor but not currently in work? Because if your definition does include people like me, it's a lot less likely.

    My understanding of how the EEA works is that EEA migrants (Norwegians, Icelanders etc) have to be treated the same as EU migrants, with the same access to free movement, benefits and so on. For example, the directive on free movement for citizens and their families (non-EEA) applies as much to EEA but non-EU citizens as to EU citizens. Exhibit 2 : the Citizens Advice Bureau has a link to claiming housing benefit as an EEA citizen.

    I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong but I see EEA citizens are being treated basically the same.
    posted by plep at 3:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I've been thinking the same. I think it's probably the best outcome at this point.
    Ignoring the Referendum or burying it under procedure probably won't work, but maybe this might be better.
    The EU will insist on all rules being followed, and there is no way that not being in the single market will be tolerable. But Bear in mind that Farage was an MEP for 17 years and did nothing but try to destroy the EU.
    Also, throughout, Britain constantly sat on the sidelines and sniped and complained.

    I think we may end up with all the EEA rules (no more special exceptions) and no say in those rules (which is oddly a good thing I think, given our contribution so far)
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:24 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong but I see EEA citizens are being treated basically the same.

    EU citizens are currently not treated the same in the UK. If a transition to the EEA only were to return some of the rights we've lost over the past decade, that'd be awesome, but again, that strikes me as unlikely given the talk of freedom of movement being "on the table" for negotiations.

    Exhibit 2 : the Citizens Advice Bureau has a link to claiming housing benefit as an EEA citizen.

    From that very link: "If you're an EEA national who has come to the UK as a jobseeker, you can’t claim income-based jobseeker's allowance during your first three months in the country. After that you can claim for a total of 91 days, which can be split across several periods of jobseeking."

    That is not the same rights to benefits as a British citizen. And since it's your ability to satisfy the requirements of the habitual residency test that's tied to being in work, that means you won't be eligible for housing benefit or council tax benefit or any benefits of any kind if you are unable to work for any reason (including illness or disability) as that means you aren't habitually resident in the UK for benefits purposes, regardless of your actual circumstances. Ask me how I know.

    The only silver lining to this cloud is that similar exemptions for in-work benefits that Cameron negotiated are void and not coming into force as a result of the referendum.
    posted by Dysk at 3:30 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


    All I know is that up is down now and down is up.

    This is from Theresa May, who appears to be campaigning as a social reformer. Truly we are through the looking-glass.


    Britain still needs a Government that is capable of delivering a programme of serious social reform and realising a vision of a country that truly works for everyone.

    The evidence of this need has been known to us for a long time. If you’re born poor, you will die on average nine years earlier than others. If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white. If you’re a white, working-class boy, you’re less likely than anybody else to go to university. If you’re at a state school, you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately. If you’re a woman, you still earn less than a man. If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s too often not enough help to hand. If you’re young, you’ll find it harder than ever before to own your own home. These are all burning injustices, and - as I did with the misuse of stop and search and deaths in police custody and modern slavery - I am determined to fight against them.

    posted by vacapinta at 3:38 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


    One link deeper on the CAB page: "From 1 March 2014, you may not be accepted as being a former worker or self-employed person if your gross earnings or your profits in the preceding three months of work or self-employment were less than a 'Minimun Earnings Threshold'"

    Being accepted as a former worker here means passing the habitual residency test and qualifying for any benefits at all.
    posted by Dysk at 3:52 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Boris Johnson has just pulled out of the Tory leadership race.
    posted by MattWPBS at 3:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Mallory Archer makes a pretty effective Theresa May stand in for Memes.
    Also you can probably get away with just attributing Mallory Archer quotes to May...
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:58 AM on June 30, 2016


    From the Guardian feed:

    14m ago: Boris Johnson launches his leadership bid
    5m ago: Johnson pulls out of Tory leadership contest
    3m ago: He is not taking questions.
    posted by effbot at 3:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


    Impressive that he ended up even ending his own career. Oh, Boris, you irresponsible bastard. One MP dead, a country that is economically crippled, and the possible breakup of the UK.

    I hope he is truly, deeply ashamed.
    posted by jaduncan at 4:00 AM on June 30, 2016 [32 favorites]


    The Guardian has an interesting article on the three Tory contenders:
    Who is most liberal – May, Johnson or Gove?

    What caught my eye (and which I didn't know before) was their description of Theresa May:
    After 10 years she is now the most experienced interior minister in Europe and has proved highly influential in justice and home affairs policies

    and
    Although a professed Eurosceptic it was little surprise when she announced she was backing the remain in Europe campaign. In an earlier life she was a Brussels lobbyist for the Association of Clearing Banks for six years and is very much at home trying to secure what she wants in Europe.

    I think the UK urgently needs a good negotiator in charge, and she may be the best one on offer.
    posted by Azara at 4:01 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Proof-reading/input please. I want to start a petition on the Parliament site calling for a General Election prior to negotiations. I don't think it's correct for only Tory party members to make that decision. What do people think on this/would they be prepared to sign it?

    Commitment to General Election before start of EU exit negotiations.

    The British people have voted to leave the European Union. However, the Conservatives and other parties cannot claim an electoral mandate to negotiate the form our exit from the EU takes. We, the people, deserve to take back control of this and vote on policies for the negotiation.

    This will be one of the largest constitutional changes in our history, no 2015 manifesto says how parties will act in this situation. How much do we want to remain in the Common Market? Do we want to retain freedom of movement? How vital is the City's financial access? How will EU based rights/regulations be re-written? etc. The referendum answered none of these. The only way to secure a mandate is through a General Election. We call on Parliament to commit to this before negotiations start.
    posted by MattWPBS at 4:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


    On Theresa May from the Guardian link above: "Her tough stance on immigration was sealed by the conflicts over the Home Office-run “Go Home” posters on vans"

    Between this and her unequivocal and wholehearted opposition to the ECHR (not to mention her stance on whistleblowers and privacy), she would be disastrous for many, many people.
    posted by Dysk at 4:09 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Theresa May was the Home Secretary who introduced the £18,600 minimum income requirement for spouses and much more. She's been a very regressive Home Secretary and echoing Dysk, many people ought to be worried.
    posted by plep at 4:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


    (In other words, she is personally responsible for actually breaking up families).
    posted by plep at 4:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


    So this is why Boris was playing cricket over the weekend: he knew. From the moment he won, he had lost.
    posted by Quagkapi at 4:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE JEREMY.

    Meanwhile, the embattled Labour leader Jeremy Corby has put the cat among the pigeons at the launch of a report into antisemitism within the party with a quote which appeared to liken Israel to Islamic State (Isis):

    Corbyn: "Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than our Muslim friends are for the self-styled Islamic State"


    YOU HAVE THE PERFECT BLOODY TIMING FROM BORIS TO BURY THE REPORT AND LET THE TORIES GET THE SHITTY PRESS FOR THE DAY, AND SOMEBODY LETS THAT INTO THE TEXT OF THE SPEECH?
    posted by MattWPBS at 4:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


    Right. Boris out. Tories are getting their shit together, and I think we're not going to get a bloody fight for their leadership, alas. I would not be at all surprised to see Gove drop out, and the hideous May quickly be shown as the Anointed One. Meanwhile, Labour chaos continues. We are so screwed.

    On the upside, Boris is done. Forever, I hope.
    posted by skybluepink at 4:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


    MattWPBS, not sure how to use a MeFi thread for proofreading, although it's a great idea. My one alteration is that the term of art is Single Market, not Common Market, I think.
    posted by ambrosen at 4:16 AM on June 30, 2016


    and the hideous May quickly be shown as the Anointed One

    Called it.

    (well, my friends did, but close enough :-)
    posted by effbot at 4:23 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Yeah that recent thing that Corbyn said was politically stupid, but he didn't say Israel is like Isis.
    He said that being of a religion does not make you responsible for the actions of other people of the same religion.
    That's sound.

    But of course he said it like an idiot and already there are thousands of tweets saying things like "OMG can't believe Corbyn said Israel was the same as ISIS"

    So, yeah, he (and the whole media team) need to go. But not in a Progress led coup.
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    So can political parties buy malpractice insurance for their leaders? Just wondering.
    posted by maudlin at 4:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


    So can political parties buy malpractice insurance for their leaders?

    Not after this week...
    posted by Catseye at 4:41 AM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Yeah that recent thing that Corbyn said was politically stupid, but he didn't say Israel is like Isis.

    Oh, please. The comparison, and anti-Semitism, is clear. Attempting to excuse it with childish recourse to ridiculous semantics is not a good look.
    posted by OmieWise at 4:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I find it hard to believe BoJo's career is over. Every single thing he does is so very calculated I'm assuming him pulling out is another strategic move rather than a defeat, just because I don't trust a word out of his mouth. Any chance the plan is to let May (shudder) or Gove (heave) manage the fuckstorm of an exit and then he swoops in at a later date after their career is in tatters?
    posted by billiebee at 4:57 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Then you may need to excuse me for not looking good, because I don't see that comparison happening either. (I guess I can't really judge whether there is anti-Semitism present, so I will refrain from trying.)
    It was a really stupid thing to say, because people will read this as a comparison. That much, I can see.
    posted by Too-Ticky at 4:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    The stuff about Corbyn and anti-semitism etc is nothing to do with Brexit - the whole argument blew up long before the referendum and this is just the release of a report into it.

    Unless this is going to become a general UK politics chat thread, perhaps we should stick to the UK's relationship with the EU and the fallout from the referendum.
    posted by winterhill at 4:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


    As my friend just emailed me of the Corbyn Isis/Israel quote, 'Seamus, I'm not sure this is such a good idea.'

    Also I so wish he'd knock off the 'friends' shit, it sets my teeth on edge every time.

    I joined the Labour Party this morning.
    posted by Mocata at 4:59 AM on June 30, 2016


    He said that being of a religion does not make you responsible for the actions of other people of the same religion.

    I dunno, he said:

    "'Zio' is a vile epithet. Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than our Muslim friends are for the self-styled Islamic State"

    which has "jewish friends" and "muslim friends" as one equivalence pair, and "Israel" and "Islamic State" as the second pair.

    It would be a lot easier to read this as a mistake if it didn't come from a guy who e.g. recently refused to reply to a letter from Israeli labour and has always done this "but on the other hand" thing whenever commenting on anything that might challenge the dogma of one of the many activist groups he used to hang out with.
    posted by effbot at 5:01 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


    To be honest, the Labour and Tory Party car crashes probably need threads of their own, but I don't feel up to putting them together.
    posted by Grangousier at 5:04 AM on June 30, 2016


    So, let me suggest an unconventional candidate for Labour Party leader: Mr Boris Johnson. Now, hear me out; he * [there is a screech as the author is violently carried away in Eagle's talons] *
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


    And Corbyn's Momentum thugs attacked Jewish labour MPs during the press conference, accusing them to be right wing shills.

    So one press conference ended with Boris MP backers in tears, the other with Jewish MPs in tears. Good job, UK politics.
    posted by effbot at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Boris has a US passport and was born in the US. Perhaps he'll go run as Trump's VP.
    posted by vacapinta at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [25 favorites]


    Vacapinta, stop it right now!!

    **shudder**
    posted by Pendragon at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Totally genius, but sadly for Boris and probably happily for us, he'd have to have lived in the US for the past 14 years.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Johnson actually renounced his US citizenship in order to avoid taxes. Seriously.
    posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Boris has a US passport and was born in the US. Perhaps he'll go run as Trump's VP.

    There's prior art for that.
    posted by effbot at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016


    US President Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?
    posted by Mister Bijou at 5:22 AM on June 30, 2016


    Johnson actually renounced his US citizenship

    Citation, please.
    posted by Mister Bijou at 5:23 AM on June 30, 2016


    It doesn't seem any less possible than many things that have actually happened over the last week.
    posted by Grangousier at 5:25 AM on June 30, 2016


    My apologies for a potential derail - I should know better. Let's handle the dismantling of one country at a time.
    posted by vacapinta at 5:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


    US President Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?

    You mean Trump would throw in the towel as soon as he's confronted with the all the things you actually have to do to be the president? Just like Boris just (preemptively) did? Who's the third one in the US succession line?
    posted by effbot at 5:32 AM on June 30, 2016




    This quote is well-known, but I'll leave it here anyway.

    Gove, in 2012: "I could not be Prime Minister, I'm not equipped to be Prime Minister, I don't want to be Prime Minister."

    That's his expert opinion, presumably.
    posted by Quagkapi at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Both say Johnson is intending to renounce his US citizenship.

    I have yet to see a report he did.
    posted by Mister Bijou at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]




    The choice now is between, in Gove, a true Brexit believer and, in May, a candidate who today declared “Brexit means Brexit”. Those who had hoped that the next prime minister might look for a fudge, a way out of the 23 June verdict, need to lower their expectations – and accept that out might really mean out. - Guardia