Hello Cleveland!

October 23, 2007 12:58 PM

Dennis Kucinich had a UFO encounter. [one link newsfilter]. "The smell of roses drew him out to my balcony where, when he looked up, he saw a gigantic triangular craft, silent, and observing him." I guess this sort of puts him in the company of other delusional nutjobs that have seen giant UFOs.
posted by well_balanced (101 comments total)

At least Rudy Giuliani will be prepared for an attack from outer space!
posted by ericb at 1:06 PM on October 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Not only that - he keeps a tiny little flying saucer in his chest pocket as a souvenir!
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:09 PM on October 23, 2007 [7 favorites has favorites]

Just imagine if we had a president who believed he was receiving orders beamed directly from some powerful being in the sky. Ludicrous.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:12 PM on October 23, 2007 [33 favorites has favorites]

The Scent of Roses has called to others...
posted by cal71 at 1:14 PM on October 23, 2007

He's in good company, although Jimmy didn't mention his smelling like roses. (transcription)
posted by Johnny Assay at 1:16 PM on October 23, 2007

You left something important out of your post:

...According To Friend Shirley MacLaine

I wouldn't believe Shirley MacLaine if she told me her name was Shirley without checking the birth certificate. I'll believe Kucinich (thinks he) saw a UFO when he says it himself.
posted by languagehat at 1:16 PM on October 23, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]

Dennis is the only one who knows what's up.

_---_
<=-----=>




I WANT TO
BELIEVE

posted by cortex at 1:17 PM on October 23, 2007 [11 favorites has favorites]

He wouldn't be the first president to have claimed to have seen one.
posted by aught at 1:17 PM on October 23, 2007

I think it would be a nice touch if he wore a tiny little flying saucer on his lapel instead
posted by freq at 1:19 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I think the most damaging thing about this for Kucinich is the revelation that he's friends with Shirley MacLaine.
posted by brundlefly at 1:24 PM on October 23, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]

You know, I've seen plenty of UFOs. I probably see one every few weeks, as a matter of fact. The thing is, people always forget that UFO stands for "Unidentified Flying Object." Anything that you see in the sky and don't know what it is is a UFO. It's not synonymous with "extraterrestrial spacecraft."
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:25 PM on October 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Shirley MacLaine was Dennis Kucinich.
posted by not_on_display at 1:25 PM on October 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

You think that's weird? The guy in the Oval Office talks to his invisible friend.
posted by lekvar at 1:27 PM on October 23, 2007

Dan Ackroyd believes.
posted by MrMoonPie at 1:30 PM on October 23, 2007

like i said on talking points memo, the timing of this little embarrassment for kucinich couldn't be in anyway related to the fact that kucinich is currently in the middle of getting another push underway to initiate impeachment proceedings against bush (a violation of the idiotic dem leadership's key strategy of keeping "impeachment off the table")?

i suppose i sound like someone who talks to ufos now, too, eh? yeah. sure.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:35 PM on October 23, 2007

that is, like i said in my comment related to this story on tpm, if that wasn't clear.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:36 PM on October 23, 2007

I think she's confusing real life with an episode of Frasier that she saw many years ago.
posted by 517 at 1:37 PM on October 23, 2007

for an fpp, this has got an awful lot of editorializing in it, dunnit? delusional nutjob wankery and what not? i've seen fpp's yanked for less...
posted by saulgoodman at 1:38 PM on October 23, 2007

How exactly do you tell if a UFO is observing you or not?
posted by tkolar at 1:40 PM on October 23, 2007

You catch it looking away too quickly when you glance over.
posted by cortex at 1:41 PM on October 23, 2007 [9 favorites has favorites]

As opposed to the delusional nutjobs running the country who see WMD where there are none and continue to insist that WMD were found and that inspectors were not allowed in to Iraq.

You know, when a dude like Kucinich, who wants to establish a "Department of Peace" is saner than you are you are really hurting.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:41 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

is Shirley Maclaine purposely trying to kill his campaign? it's bad enough that the media treats him like a joke--don't help them!
posted by amberglow at 1:42 PM on October 23, 2007

like i said on talking points memo, the timing of this little embarrassment for kucinich couldn't be in anyway related to the fact that kucinich is currently in the middle of getting another push underway to initiate impeachment proceedings against bush (a violation of the idiotic dem leadership's key strategy of keeping "impeachment off the table")?

Yes, I'm sure Shirley McLaine wrote her book "Sage-ing While Age-ing" and timed its release to coincide with Kucinich "getting another push underway" for impeachment.
posted by pardonyou? at 1:43 PM on October 23, 2007

is Shirley Maclaine purposely trying to kill his campaign?

Yep -- so as to make room for Senator Bulworth to run for President.
posted by ericb at 1:46 PM on October 23, 2007

it's pretty obvious i'm talking about the timing of the story, point a fair reading.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:47 PM on October 23, 2007

should have been:

"it's pretty obvious i'm talking about the timing of the story, but then i wouldn't expect you to give the point a fair reading."
posted by saulgoodman at 1:48 PM on October 23, 2007

I hd read some time ago that Carter had claimed to have spotted a UFO and that in running for higher office (presidency) he said that if elected he would have the govt open all its flying object files, files that were closed to the public. He got elected. Nothing happened. I wrote him at Plains, his home and asked why those files were not opened. He never responded.
posted by Postroad at 1:50 PM on October 23, 2007

it's pretty obvious i'm talking about the timing of the story, point a fair reading.

I'm sure that's what you were talking about. But the timing of the story is obviously related to the timing of the book coming out (on November 6, 2007). It's not like someone at the Cleveland Plain Dealer (the original source of this story) sat on this until now.

Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water.
posted by pardonyou? at 1:52 PM on October 23, 2007

As opposed to our current president, who believes that an all-powerful immortal plans to destroy the world in fire -- and personally communicates with him about tax policy.
posted by verb at 1:53 PM on October 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

well, pardonyou?, i maintain my argument about this fpp containing an awful lot of editorializing in it holds water.

I guess this sort of puts him in the company of other delusional nutjobs that have seen giant UFOs.

Is WAAYYYY over the top for an fpp about a current presidential candidate.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:55 PM on October 23, 2007

Perhaps it was Zengali's work.
posted by caddis at 1:57 PM on October 23, 2007

I gotta go with Faint of Butt. I’ve seen a UFO. It was quite literally something in the sky I couldn’t identify as an airplane, blimp, satellite, etc. It did do some funky things, but I didn’t assume it was from outer space, nor piloted by aliens, nor did I get any directions from it in my mind.
I guess I’m not as special as some folks who are worth traveling many light years to beep at.


This link with religion is different, but apt. I mean, someone with the kind of hubris to think they’re singled out by God or aliens or some such. I couldn’t think of a worse catastrophe to befall me. I’ve got tons of shit to do just on my own. I have to make sure the kids are good to go. Do what I have to do at work. Hell, I still haven’t cleaned out the garage. Now I’ve got some alien fuck or transcendant omnipotent being telling me I have to save the world by running for political office? The hell with that.
And even then - I’m supposed to believe them? What if it’s just some asshole hyperadvanced kid making a prank call? Or if it’s actually the devil (if we’re allowing God into the equation)?

And really, what are they going to do if I don’t? Fuck ‘em. Their whole “mysterious” act would dry up pretty quickly if I started being bashed around the room by invisible hands or some big green glowing saucer burned up my lawn.
Where’s your transcendental b.s. now tough guy? Out the door as soon as you manifest to try and kick my ass for not marching to your tune, that’s where.

Doing what’s right doesn’t need all this baggage to legitimate it. You do the right and moral thing because it’s the right and moral thing. That puts you in line with a thousand other men and women who have lived and died for that cause from Socrates to the nameless masses who’ve toiled in obscurity.
Do that and you become an immortal part of that lineage of selfless people who nobly act and speak for the greater good, not just their own aggrandizement.
But no, gotta put some sort of outside force on it so people get all impressed by how important you are? What egotistical crap.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:01 PM on October 23, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

saulgoodman - I didn't read it entirely carefully, but the that link phrase is attached to is about test pilots and high-ranking army officers who were involved in UFO incidents. I think the phrase was used ironically.
posted by yhbc at 2:01 PM on October 23, 2007

well, yhbc, the "delusional" link is blocked by websense on the firewall i'm behind, so i can't tell either way.
posted by saulgoodman at 2:04 PM on October 23, 2007

Gravel Out of Next Democratic Debate

Sen. Mike Gravel: Why NBC and the DNC Want Me Out of the Debates
posted by homunculus at 2:05 PM on October 23, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

My very conservative grandparents worked for Rockwell, NASA, and the Air Force. Mostly at Edwards Air Force Base from the 50s through the 80s. They told all sorts of amazing stories about sightings.

My grandfather also turned out to be a racist who thought the "mexicans" were trying to take over the neighborhood. So there's that.
posted by -t at 2:07 PM on October 23, 2007

LOLZkucinich!
posted by saulgoodman at 2:07 PM on October 23, 2007

> I WANT TO
> BELIEVE

Man, I wish it were aliens for real.

*kicks the ground with tennis shoe*

It's never aliens for real.
posted by Mister Cheese at 5:03 AM on June 30

posted by jfuller at 2:08 PM on October 23, 2007

From homunculus' link: The fact that NBC is owned by General Electric, one of the world's leading military contractors, is frightening and certainly smacks of censorship directed at the most outspoken critic of the influence that the military-industrial complex holds over this great nation. In the past decade, GE has benefited financially from the global war on terrorism and currently holds almost $2 billion in military contracts.

LOLZ!Wingnuts!
posted by saulgoodman at 2:09 PM on October 23, 2007

They want Kucinich out too, and this will help them.
posted by amberglow at 2:17 PM on October 23, 2007

He wouldn't be the first president to have claimed to have seen one.

And my uncle was the guy who kept Carter from making information about UFO sightings available to the public. Go Uncle Walt!
posted by Lucinda at 2:20 PM on October 23, 2007

Clinton bucks the trend and rakes in cash from the US weapons industry
posted by homunculus at 2:22 PM on October 23, 2007

well, you know, according to a new book i've got coming out on cafe press next week, hillary clinton once confessed to a friend of a friend of my cousin that she had a lesbian affair with a disembodied alien entity. i guess that puts her in the company of other delusional nutjobs who claim to have bedded alien babes.
posted by saulgoodman at 2:26 PM on October 23, 2007

It's OK, so did Truman and Eisenhower (and apparently Carter, as twice linked to upthread).
posted by sleepy pete at 2:41 PM on October 23, 2007

UFOs? Whatever... The man keeps a tea bag in his pocket. A tea bag! Think about that one...
posted by arto at 2:41 PM on October 23, 2007

Huckabee: No Health Care for Dirty Hippies
posted by homunculus at 2:45 PM on October 23, 2007

I gotta go with Faint of Butt.

Always.
posted by homunculus at 2:51 PM on October 23, 2007

In other news, in the face of now even further dwindling poll numbers, Dennis Kucinich has also written a book, entitled "Shirley Maclaine Should Learn When to Keep Her God Damn Mouth Shut."
posted by shmegegge at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

MEXICO CITY - Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies over southern Campeche state.
posted by Sailormom at 2:55 PM on October 23, 2007

The other "delusional nutjob" to whom I was ironically referring was Kelly Johnson, the driving force behind Lockheed Skunkworks, the architect of the U-2 and SR-71, and arguably one of the most competent people in the world when it comes to identifying things in the sky in 1953. His report of a ~200ft UFO has multiple, reputable witnesses from different observational positions and is quite well documented.

The man that developed the most advanced aircraft of the Cold War period believes what he and others observed was not a human-built object or a weather phenomenon and has stated so publicly. It is widely considered to be one of the most credible UFO sighting reports on record.

Since credible people don't see UFOs the fact that Kucinich reportedly saw one clearly means that Kucinich and anything he says or does is not credible and should be laughed at.
posted by well_balanced at 2:58 PM on October 23, 2007

Forgot this link: Clarence Johnson
posted by well_balanced at 3:08 PM on October 23, 2007

Count me in as one of the delusional nutjobs!

June 1996, on a beautiful summer's afternoon I saw an orange glowing ball gliding slowly in the sky across the valley / glen from my house in the Highlands of Scotland. I grabbed a set of binoculars and watched what turned out to be a smooth featureless disc of what looked like brushed aluminium (it was reflecting the sun, hence the glowing ball appearance) cruise slowly through the air, stop occasionally and change direction a few times before slowly rising, following the gradient of the hillside and dissapearing over the brow of the hill and out of sight. I very clearly observed the pretty typical flying saucer for 3-4 minutes.

The local radio station ran a story that night about a silver disc spotted hovering over a field a few miles down the coast from me and that two Tornado jets had been scrambled but made no contacts with any other aircraft. We have two major RAF airbases, Kinloss and Lossiemouth, nearby and I like to put it down to some sort of experimental reconnaissance craft from either one of them rather than BELIEVE...
posted by brautigan at 3:14 PM on October 23, 2007

Dude, that shit wasn't a UFO, that was the Great Mother Plane!
posted by The Straightener at 3:20 PM on October 23, 2007

tons and tons of people have seen things and experienced things--and even more people believe in the existence of UFOs, etc--but in this environment and esp a political campaign where the media already has unfairly painted him as a kook, this doesn't help. She's really hurting him, and we all lose if he's shut out further from debates and our almost entirely if not complete pro-war discourse.
posted by amberglow at 3:26 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'd kind of tend toward the suspicion that there is some subterfuge behind this as well. Well-traveled "Ha Ha" talking point that will be used to get him excluded from any serious discussion on war if not getting him removed from the public debates as early as possible so as not to point out anything too embarrassing. How friendly is Shirley w/ the Clintons?
posted by well_balanced at 3:31 PM on October 23, 2007

amberglow's exactly right. not to mention that kucinich is one of only a handful of dems with the balls to push seriously for impeachment and this latest story is only helping to foster the view that talk of impeachment is a wingnut issue. nice work. i swear to god, the so-called left is at least as much to blame for attacking/marginalizing actual political lefties as the right-wing attack machine is. it's no wonder there's no viable opposition in this country.
posted by saulgoodman at 3:37 PM on October 23, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]

Quality comment from the post:

Who hasn't seen a UFO? I saw several. It might have been experimental aircraft from an airbase near by, but I saw them none the less. And others saw them too.

Kucinich is acknowledging there might be something more than just us. So what? Religious people do that every Sunday in church.

It sounds like Dennis had a spiritual experience. He doesn't have to explain it to anyone, as long as he doesn't use it an excuse to start wars in God's name.

posted by taursir at 3:48 PM on October 23, 2007

President Carter never 'spotted,' nor claimed to spot, a 'UFO.'

A couple months ago, he was a guest on the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast to discuss that silly subject and put any spurious rumors to bed.

Let's hope Kucinich is booked soon.
posted by broodle at 4:01 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Sounds to me like a spiritual experience as seen through the lens of someone from a secular 20th century background.

Unfortunately, this will likely get spun as proof that he's a wackjob, and perpetuated over and over again by people who have claimed to see and receive messages from God or some other culturally filtered explanation for whatever this phenomenon is.

It's really too bad. The deck's already stacked against the guy, and he'd probably be a remarkably great president. But he's short and homely and "crazy" and therefore unelectable in our TV nation. Sigh.
posted by maus at 4:14 PM on October 23, 2007

So, a TPM report of something appearing in an upcoming Shirley MacLaine book is supposed to be anything like remotely reliable?

Uhmm, well_balanced, while we are on the subject of delusional nutjobs...
posted by Skeptic at 4:21 PM on October 23, 2007

I feel fairly confident that we can reliably predict to what end this report of a passage in an upcoming Shirley MacLaine book will be used in the election news cycle, reliable or not.
posted by well_balanced at 4:37 PM on October 23, 2007

I'm with JFuller on this one, and perhaps to a lesser extent I'm even with Dan Ackroyd. I believe in the possibility, and I would like to believe, but actually I want more than circumstantial proof and thus far there's nothing tangible.

This is why nonbelievers often compare UFO-enthusiasts with any kind of religious zealot - without proof all you got is faith. You don't prove faith. If ever empirical evidence shows up that cannot be remotely disputed, UFology will stop being faith-based. Then again, the same can be said about Christianity.
posted by ZachsMind at 4:42 PM on October 23, 2007

It's really too bad. The deck's already stacked against the guy, and he'd probably be a remarkably great president. But he's short and homely and "crazy" and therefore unelectable in our TV nation. Sigh.

I've been wondering. Why doesn't the hot wife cancel out the "short and homely?" TV's full of goofy looking guys somehow married to gorgeous women.
posted by SBMike at 4:44 PM on October 23, 2007

...we only have Drake's Equation, which mathematically proves the probability to be there. Let's face it tho, if you were approaching this planet from space and you were far away from home, would you want the trigger-happy backwater locals to know you were there? Didn't think so.

Still, out in the red states of America, admitting a belief in UFOs is not an automatic no-vote. In fact for some people it'd cause them to think twice about Kucinich. I'm not one of them of course, but then I've stopped voting. Any politician would not want to get my attention. They'd have to actually give me a reason to vote. All Kucinich is interested in doing is giving people reasons to acknowledge his existence.
posted by ZachsMind at 4:48 PM on October 23, 2007

As for celebrity sightings, don't forget Jackie Gleason and Walter Cronkite. (the latter theory is more credible)
posted by zardoz at 5:09 PM on October 23, 2007

The aliens who abducted me had a garlic-y smell, kind of like chimichangas. And Juan told me that he'd kill me if I ever mentioned those anal probes.
posted by ranchocalamari at 5:11 PM on October 23, 2007

celebrity UFO sightings, that is.
posted by zardoz at 5:15 PM on October 23, 2007

Come on, it was the '70s. It wasn't a UFO, it was just the Jefferson Starship coming to give everybody a ride to a good time.

Baby.
posted by quin at 5:22 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I thought it was Boston.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:23 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

But even if we suppose Drake's Equation might be true, we still have to accept on faith that the life form would need to have broken the laws of space and time (as we currently know them) to been able to travel to and from our far away planet with ease. Lots and lots and lots of ifs, ands and maybes on this popular geek belief system. L. Ron Hubbard's got your back though.
posted by ranchocalamari at 5:28 PM on October 23, 2007

I dunno, we’ve only really had it going on here on earth for 10-20,000 years in terms of consciousness and actually pushing things forward. In just two or three million years, granting things go well, I can’t really imagine where we’ll be. A helicopter f’rinstance would freak the hell out of a Homo Heidelbergensis. Bit of hubris to say we’ve got the full story on all the physical laws or especially how to get around them. Of course, that goes back to the core point - if we don’t know what the hell that thing is, how can anyone derive any real meaning from it.
I’m sure Homo Erectus would have all sorts of goofy theories on what a harrier jet is, doesn’t mean he’d be anywhere near right no matter how well he might outwardly imitate or reiterate the form.
(That whole cargo cult things comes to mind)
posted by Smedleyman at 5:41 PM on October 23, 2007

Yes, smedleyman, but your argument is still dealing in faith and presupposition. Just because it seems like it should be so doesn't make it that way. There are many who argue, sometimes quite convincingly, for the existence of god using a similar circular logic. But thinking something should be a certain way does not in fact prove that it is that way, just that it could be that way.
posted by ranchocalamari at 5:49 PM on October 23, 2007

Didn't I see this on an episode of Frasier?
posted by papakwanz at 6:08 PM on October 23, 2007

There are many who argue, sometimes quite convincingly, for the existence of god using a similar circular logic.

The difference here is that god doesn't get photographed on a fairly regular basis, buzz aircraft, get tracked on radar, etc. There is a mountain of observed data that goes far beyond circumstantial. What does not exist is the reproducible-on demand data that the scientific method requires in order to prove a theory. The evidence that the phenomenon is the result of visits from extraterrestrial spacecraft is essentially non-existent but yet the phenomenon persists, is observed, recorded and measured. Just not on demand and not in accordance with what we suppose a proper "aliens from outer space" interaction should look like.
posted by well_balanced at 6:13 PM on October 23, 2007

The real question is: was Kucinich promptly approached by Jesse Ventura and a man who looks remarkably like Alex Trebek?
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 6:29 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

The difference here is that god doesn't get photographed on a fairly regular basis, buzz aircraft, get tracked on radar, etc. There is a mountain of observed data that goes far beyond circumstantial

are you freakin' kidding? There is almost no evidence at all - Roswell is a picture of what now looks like a joke, though apparently in the 50s it looked super hi-tech - quite obviously man-made & nothing special. Crop circles (and increasingly complex patterns as the phenomenon developed) are openly admitted to be created by local artists. Occasional flashing lights or fast moving aircraft, that are now & then caught on film, are not evidence of anything but the fact that low flying aircraft move pretty quickly through the sky. Round or disc shaped flying objects started appearing around when satellites started being launched by humans... Like the loch ness monster, there are some photos here and there that look intriguing, most of which later are revealed or admitted to have been hoaxes.

I mean, if there were alien or non-man made machines of any sort in our vicinity, don't you think someone would have gotten hold of one by now? With all the cameras out there, wouldn't someone have got a proper close up of something? But instead movies have to invent plotlines like memory erasers or government conspiracies to explain why there's no trace of real evidence, and those who support the notion that we have been visited by extraterrestrials openly express that they WANT TO BELIEVE not that logical analysis leads them to a probable conclusion.
posted by mdn at 6:37 PM on October 23, 2007

Well RanchoCalamari, there is something that Drake's Equation fails to take into account, and that's space.

Even though the odds of our planet being the only planet in the entire universe to support life as we know it is very remote, the odds are also very remote that any other intelligent species that is out there would ever find us. As Douglas Adams put it so eloquently, "Space is big."

Finding a needle in a haystack twice the size of Texas would be easier, and that's if the alien species in question even knew to look for us. Imagine living all your life on a haystack twice the size of Texas. There's a very slim chance you'd ever accidently stumble on the needle in your lifetime.

Granted we the metaphorical needle in that metaphorical haystack are currently doing something that your average run of the mill needle wouldn't think to do. We are essentially our own homing signal. For the past century or so, we've been broadcasting artificial signals into the cosmos. Everything from Hitler saluting himself to reruns of Seinfeld. Whether we like it or not, we have a giant red arrow pointing at this pale blue dot, which can be "seen" for some seventy or eighty light years in any direction. That does increase the chances somewhat. However, we're also 'listening' to the cosmos ourselves, and thus far SETI has come up with bupkus.

So it's really a toss up at this point who's right and who's crazy.
posted by ZachsMind at 6:41 PM on October 23, 2007

Err, ZachMind, if you re-read my post, you will find that I said the same thing and am agreeing with you.
posted by ranchocalamari at 7:05 PM on October 23, 2007

Err, Rancho, if you don't re-read my post, you will find that I wasn't arguing with you.
posted by ZachsMind at 7:29 PM on October 23, 2007

“Yes, smedleyman, but your argument is still dealing in faith and presupposition. Just because it seems like it should be so doesn't make it that way.”

No, you’ve completely missed my argument.
I’m arguing that we can’t attribute any meaning to events we have no explanation for - even if they do exist.

For the sake of argument, let’s take space aliens as a given (as I allowed above). Even if they do fly their ships down here we would not be able to, having absolutely no frame of reference, understand what they really are or why they are here or even how it is they interact with the environment.
We have, for example, invisible means of communicating with each other. To a primative who observes only that one person had information - did not in any way physically contact another person - and yet the other person has this information - is some kind of telepathy. To us, it’s just a cell phone.
So you have cargo cults who rebuild the form of what they’ve seen with no existance beyond that.
Similarly - the light in the sky, the eerie feelings, the communication, etc. may well be (again, taking aliens as a given) real phenomena - but we still can’t derive meaning from it.
“Should be” doesn’t enter into it.
(I have argued for the fundimental a priori existance of God (reminding you that logic is an a priori form of knowlege) but I also hold that it’s impossible to attribute any meaning to such a being - for a number of reasons one of which, obviously is the lack of empirical evidence, but, more solidly within the realm of knowlege not derived from experiance (a priori knowlege) that it’s equally impossible to derive any meaning to certain other similar forms of a priori knowlege, for example, infinity. It’s only expressible as a symbol which can’t possibly, ever, capture the totality of meaning. Whereas, say, an apple, we have experiance of and some common referential frame for. We can even imagine a perfect apple. But an infinite apple is impossible.)
My argument in the case of extraterrestrials would be inverted in terms of kinds of knowlege.
In essence - there are kinds of a posteriori knowlege (knowlege derived from experiance) we’re not (yet?) equipped to understand.
So - UFO = what the hell is that? Whether there is documented evidence or not. We are as unlikely to understand exactly what it is we’re looking at, what it means, what it’s for, etc. as Homo Erectus looking at a stealth fighter.
Maybe they’re time travelers. Maybe they’re physical manifestations of some odd effect of consciousness. Maybe they’re aliens. But in any case - it’s pretty arrogant to presume any of us have a handle on exactly what it is and most certainly what it means.
Especially considering the cargo cultists were modern, albeit primative, humans who radically misunderstood even 1940s technology.
And of course, the actual evidence for flying saucers is pretty thin in scientific terms anyway. I mearly point out that the “we have no idea” thing works both ways in that we have no idea what our own future holds some million years down the road much less what alien life/technology might be like.
But honestly (given we make it) do you actually think one million years from now we’ll still be typing away on windows OS computers, speaking english, using the same maths, etc. etc.
I think, based on experiance, it will be a radically different world.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:30 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

And, I might add, almost completely incomprehensible to you or me. As much as (if not more) a supercomputer would be to a chimp. There’s no faith that enters into that (beyond mankind existing). Merely the expectation of, and logical acceptance of, bewilderment.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:33 PM on October 23, 2007

“In essence - there are kinds of a posteriori knowlege (knowlege derived from experiance) we’re not (yet?) equipped to understand.”

And of course - yet - being the difference there not only in our evolution, but in the difference between what we can derive from experiance and what we can’t. Something we can experiance we might someday understand and explain through repeatable experimentation, something we can’t (a priori knowlege) - ain’t ever gonna happen.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:37 PM on October 23, 2007

He should not have said anything. The MSM is going to "kook him out" (the way it did to Dean) anyway if he ever sees any campaign progress.
posted by wfc123 at 8:03 PM on October 23, 2007

Oh yeah I forgot I saw four of them hovering over Rome a couple of years ago.
posted by wfc123 at 8:16 PM on October 23, 2007

Where’s your transcendental b.s. now tough guy?

It runs for office or it gets the probe again.
posted by dreamsign at 8:39 PM on October 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I side with this comment above:

"Sounds to me like a spiritual experience as seen through the lens of someone from a secular 20th century background."

So I like D. K. , always have, and it is of course frustrating to like a candidate who will only win when Lucifer develops a taste for ice skating.
posted by kozad at 8:41 PM on October 23, 2007

Vote Ugg!
posted by homunculus at 12:37 AM on October 24, 2007

So what if he saw a UFO? The fact remains, he's the only candidate with positions on issues I find important, that match my own. Baring Al Gore's running, I will vote Kucinich in the primary. To do otherwise is to suggest his positions are unattractive. As for how he looks, I really don't know. I think I saw a photo, once, but I read words.

Would y'all rather have some smooth-talking politician with both hands out to grab money from corporate interests?
posted by Goofyy at 12:56 AM on October 24, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Actually, this explains how Kucinich managed to bag his so-very-hot wife. The aliens gave him superpowers!
posted by Skeptic at 5:07 AM on October 24, 2007

Throwing the leadership gauntlet to Obama and Clinton
posted by homunculus at 10:00 AM on October 24, 2007

Anything that you see in the sky and don't know what it is is a UFO. It's not synonymous with "extraterrestrial spacecraft."

In common parlance, UFO is synonymous with extraterrestrial spacecraft. Language evolves. A word's etymology should not be confused with its definition.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:28 AM on October 24, 2007

“...we only have Drake's Equation, which mathematically proves the probability to be there.”

It does no such thing. It's practically worthless because it piles questionable assumption upon questionable assumption, besides being a silly bit of hand-waving in general.

I have no doubt that there has or will be other intelligent life in the universe besides humans. I'm pretty sure there is other intelligent life in the universe besides humans right now. Beyond that? Too many unknowns. There could be a million space faring civilizations in our galaxy alone, or there could no other life of any kind at all.

Although the more we find planets, and the more we find rocky planets, then I think the odds get considerably better.

At any rate, the point you've been making is the most important one. Space is huge and there's no reason that anyone would think to come here in the first place. Most of everywhere is still outside of the light cone of our first EM broadcasts. And that really doesn't matter because they are so weak as to be invisible anyway.

Anyone who has seen a UFO and think they have seen an alien spacecraft deserves intense mockery. Moreso than theists because UFOlogists don't have all of human history and contemporary social pressure indoctrinating them into believing in UFOs.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:55 PM on October 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

“It runs for office or it gets the probe again.”

Yikes, cold banana/blueberry smoothie coming out my nose.

“we only have Drake's Equation, which mathematically proves the probability to be there.”

Say what you will about the equation, the man makes a mean coffee cake.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:23 PM on October 24, 2007

I love my Keebler Ramone congressperson! He's fabulous, and he'll have the seat for as long as he wants it because we all know he's doubleplus awesome. Read the current issue of Vanity Fair if you aren't familiar with his Muny Light smackdown during Boy Mayor days...

Recently seen on the Cleveland evening news:

(Older lady peeking out her door): But I LIKE Kucinich!
(His congressional race opponent, condescendingly): Well, just because you like him doesn't mean he's good for you.

Better him than another I-know-better-than-you politician.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:09 PM on October 24, 2007

Keebler Ramone. L O L Z
posted by well_balanced at 4:19 PM on October 24, 2007

He's wicked adorable up close and in person, though. Everyone makes a big fuss about his tall redheaded wife, but Dennis is capital-C Cute.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:36 PM on October 24, 2007

Kucinich v. Paul 2008

voter turnout - 1%
posted by caddis at 11:03 PM on October 24, 2007

DevilsAdvocate: "In common parlance, UFO is synonymous with extraterrestrial spacecraft. Language evolves."

Usually it evolves due to misuse.

An "unidentified flying object" is any object that appears to defy gravity (and is therefore percieved to be 'flying') which is unidentified. The fact that many people (more than one might think) just jump to the immediate conclusion that a UFO (pronounced 'yoo-foh') must be of extra-terrestrial origin is indicative of the stupidity inherent in humanity -- something we've been unable thus far to remove from the gene pool.
posted by ZachsMind at 4:32 PM on October 25, 2007

Unless you believe that the casual adoption of common usage is inherently stupid, you're just wrong. People think of UFO as meaning ETs because people use it to mean ETs. Whatever technical or etymological distinctions may exist, that's what people fucking mean when they say it; ergo, for the purposes of any rational discussion of the use of the word, that is what it means.
posted by cortex at 5:01 PM on October 25, 2007

Usually it evolves due to misuse.

True. And given enough time and popularity, the misuse becomes a correct use.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:08 PM on October 25, 2007

related?

NASA Will Re-Open Kecksburg UFO Files
posted by amberglow at 3:01 PM on October 29, 2007