Seanbaby's
February 10, 2002 12:37 AM Subscribe
Seanbaby's reaction to terrorism. I agree with everything he says; I just wish someone with more credentials was there to say it.
He doth protest too much.
posted by donkeyschlong at 1:44 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 1:44 AM on February 10, 2002
From the linked essay:
I want to make it clear that no one is accusing you [Middle Easterners] of being a highjacking murderer, we're only accusing you of being of the only race that has a CHANCE of being a highjacking murderer.
Is this (Sean) guy for real?
For fuck's sake. Dude, "Middle Easterners" are not some seperate "race".
Oh, and it's "hijacking", fool.
posted by acridrabbit at 1:49 AM on February 10, 2002 [1 favorite]
I want to make it clear that no one is accusing you [Middle Easterners] of being a highjacking murderer, we're only accusing you of being of the only race that has a CHANCE of being a highjacking murderer.
Is this (Sean) guy for real?
For fuck's sake. Dude, "Middle Easterners" are not some seperate "race".
Oh, and it's "hijacking", fool.
posted by acridrabbit at 1:49 AM on February 10, 2002 [1 favorite]
I agree. He sounds like a jerk. This fake-ass "common sense" rationalized racisim crap is getting so stale. Guess what? Statistically it doesn't work. Various CIA types have come forward to say this on more than one occasion. The sampling method just doesn't hold up. And double guess what? All militant Islamists aren't Arabs. Shocker. Jesus. There's a hot tub in heck (or Texas) reserved for people like this. Peggy Noonan is the entertainment.
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:02 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:02 AM on February 10, 2002
Does anyone else think racial profiling is incredibly short-sighted? I mean, it's not like the Arabs couldn't put on some makeup or something. It's not like John Walker couldn't have become a planned martyr. It's not like Eric Harris (one of the colombine shooters) didn't write about about 'crashing a plane in new york'. In fact, the only other person to crash a plane into a building since sept 11th was white!
Racial profiling would actualy make our security weaker because it would open an obvious hole. Do you really think it would be that hard for an arab guy to fake a latino accent or something?
posted by delmoi at 3:17 AM on February 10, 2002
Racial profiling would actualy make our security weaker because it would open an obvious hole. Do you really think it would be that hard for an arab guy to fake a latino accent or something?
posted by delmoi at 3:17 AM on February 10, 2002
How would racial profiling stop someone a white lad from affluent Californian suburbia carrying a bomb on to a plane?
posted by vbfg at 3:49 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by vbfg at 3:49 AM on February 10, 2002
Does 'with more credentials' mean 'informed and intelligent'?
posted by kv at 6:30 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by kv at 6:30 AM on February 10, 2002
What he is right about is that all of the new security measures have nothing to do with being secure and everything to do with pretending to be secure. And the security people know it, and we know it, and they know we know it (though they won't admit it) and we know they know we know it. It's a big, stupid act of pretending to be safe that we are jointly putting on for...I don't know. The incredibly ignorant or easily duped, I suppose.
posted by umberto at 7:03 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by umberto at 7:03 AM on February 10, 2002
So you jump all over him for the racial profiling, but say nothing (NOTHING!) about the hat-mounted rocket launchers? Explain yourselves!
Internook pegged this one.
posted by techgnollogic at 7:14 AM on February 10, 2002
Internook pegged this one.
posted by techgnollogic at 7:14 AM on February 10, 2002
(On a side note, both "highjacking" and "hijacking" are acceptable spellings.)
posted by ltracey at 8:00 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by ltracey at 8:00 AM on February 10, 2002
I thought it was funny & agreed with him in the beginning, about the pretending to be secure thing. I took a plane a couple weeks after the attack and the only difference was an extra question about whether i had any sharp objects (they didn't do a search). But then he went off the deep end.
As for the "High Jack This Fags" he completely misses the point. I'm sure no one was complaining that the victims of the bomb would have their feelings hurt if they read it! It's the fact that "fags" was used as a put-down. I'm sure no one would consider "High Jack This Niggers" okay.
posted by mdn at 8:42 AM on February 10, 2002
As for the "High Jack This Fags" he completely misses the point. I'm sure no one was complaining that the victims of the bomb would have their feelings hurt if they read it! It's the fact that "fags" was used as a put-down. I'm sure no one would consider "High Jack This Niggers" okay.
posted by mdn at 8:42 AM on February 10, 2002
If Seanbaby's trenchant political commentary makes you mad, wait until you read what he has to say about Hostess Fruit Pies.
posted by rcade at 9:34 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by rcade at 9:34 AM on February 10, 2002
Can someone explain to me how racial profiling would stop the next John Walker Lindh from hijacking an airplane?
posted by laz-e-boy at 11:00 AM on February 10, 2002
posted by laz-e-boy at 11:00 AM on February 10, 2002
I can see the whiny set has expressed their opinion.
Speaking for the other 99% of humanity, that was funny. And mostly true.
Oh, to answer your questions: You concentrate your resources towards efforts that will have the most positive effect. So, while you probably can't catch them all, you will catch the vast majority of the highjackers (Oh! Sorry! I meant "Hijackers") with racial profiling.
Sorry, I know you don't like to hear it, but it is true. Unless there is a drastic rise in the number of John Walker Lindh (AKA Jihad Johnny) wannabes I don't think we really have to worry about that too much.
You may commence with your pointless, politically-correct whining and spelling flames.
posted by hadashi at 11:49 AM on February 10, 2002
Speaking for the other 99% of humanity, that was funny. And mostly true.
Oh, to answer your questions: You concentrate your resources towards efforts that will have the most positive effect. So, while you probably can't catch them all, you will catch the vast majority of the highjackers (Oh! Sorry! I meant "Hijackers") with racial profiling.
Sorry, I know you don't like to hear it, but it is true. Unless there is a drastic rise in the number of John Walker Lindh (AKA Jihad Johnny) wannabes I don't think we really have to worry about that too much.
You may commence with your pointless, politically-correct whining and spelling flames.
posted by hadashi at 11:49 AM on February 10, 2002
I'm still wondering why white guys are allowed to rent trucks after the Oklahoma City bombing. They're a dangerous sort and should be forced to register their travels with the government.
posted by anildash at 1:45 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by anildash at 1:45 PM on February 10, 2002
I'm just wondering why the hell I can't have a rocket-launching hat.
posted by aramaic at 2:24 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by aramaic at 2:24 PM on February 10, 2002
Seanbaby does not claim that racial profiling would stop the next hijacking, he merely suggests it would speed things up a bit.
Tim McVeigh was an anomaly, as is Sulayman Lindh. White American guys are much better at ritualized serial killings than fanatical bombing campaigns. It's not just hijackings, middle easterners carry out most truck bombings too. Irish rebels and connected Italian-Americans may know a thing or two about car bombs, but everybody knows who to turn to for a really dramatic truck bombing.
posted by techgnollogic at 3:04 PM on February 10, 2002
Tim McVeigh was an anomaly, as is Sulayman Lindh. White American guys are much better at ritualized serial killings than fanatical bombing campaigns. It's not just hijackings, middle easterners carry out most truck bombings too. Irish rebels and connected Italian-Americans may know a thing or two about car bombs, but everybody knows who to turn to for a really dramatic truck bombing.
posted by techgnollogic at 3:04 PM on February 10, 2002
seanbaby's tripe was matched only by hadashi's.
So, while you probably can't catch them all, you will catch the vast majority of the highjackers (Oh! Sorry! I meant "Hijackers") with racial profiling.
is that right? remeber the last time we thought racial profiling was a good war tactic? and even if it was effective (and I've yet to see the proof), it isn't just. why don't we just ban all middle eastern people from airports? why don't we just nuke the middle east off the face of the earth (oh yeah, oil interests)?
posted by mcsweetie at 4:41 PM on February 10, 2002
So, while you probably can't catch them all, you will catch the vast majority of the highjackers (Oh! Sorry! I meant "Hijackers") with racial profiling.
is that right? remeber the last time we thought racial profiling was a good war tactic? and even if it was effective (and I've yet to see the proof), it isn't just. why don't we just ban all middle eastern people from airports? why don't we just nuke the middle east off the face of the earth (oh yeah, oil interests)?
posted by mcsweetie at 4:41 PM on February 10, 2002
Surely it would be technically feasible to nuke the population without disturbing the anticlines, stratigraphic traps and facies pinchouts where all that delicious oil is hiding. Wait, is that slippery slope fallacy lubricated with - wait for it - black crude?
posted by techgnollogic at 4:52 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by techgnollogic at 4:52 PM on February 10, 2002
Oh, come on. If a given crime is committed more often by black males over seven feet tall, I'm going to have a lot better results weeding out potential suspects if I put NBA players into a lineup than I am putting LPGA members in there.
Johnny Walker Lindh is a red herring here. He never attempted to hijack an airplane and crash it into a building. Who did? Nineteen men of Arabic or Middle Eastern descent. To suggest that checking men of this heritage a little more closely than elderly white grandmothers amounts to illegal "racial profiling" is bullshit. Any of you arguing the other side are lying to yourselves and us if you say you'd be more comfortable (or as comfortable) sitting on an airplane next to a swarthy twenty-one-year-old male in a turban as you would sitting next to a seventy-year-old white woman.
If the hijacked planes were taken over by overweight, longhaired thirtyish white males, I'd expect to be scrutinized more than an elderly black woman as we both boarded the same airliner. To argue otherwise is, at best, trolling, and is at worst self-deceit.
Total off-topic tangent, "deceit" is the word I missed in the county spelling bee in the fifth grade, and I shall never misspell it again.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:04 PM on February 10, 2002
Johnny Walker Lindh is a red herring here. He never attempted to hijack an airplane and crash it into a building. Who did? Nineteen men of Arabic or Middle Eastern descent. To suggest that checking men of this heritage a little more closely than elderly white grandmothers amounts to illegal "racial profiling" is bullshit. Any of you arguing the other side are lying to yourselves and us if you say you'd be more comfortable (or as comfortable) sitting on an airplane next to a swarthy twenty-one-year-old male in a turban as you would sitting next to a seventy-year-old white woman.
If the hijacked planes were taken over by overweight, longhaired thirtyish white males, I'd expect to be scrutinized more than an elderly black woman as we both boarded the same airliner. To argue otherwise is, at best, trolling, and is at worst self-deceit.
Total off-topic tangent, "deceit" is the word I missed in the county spelling bee in the fifth grade, and I shall never misspell it again.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:04 PM on February 10, 2002
Who did? Nineteen men of Arabic or Middle Eastern descent. To suggest that checking men of this heritage a little more closely than elderly white grandmothers amounts to illegal "racial profiling" is bullshit.
where are the numbers that say the majority of all hijackings are committed by people of middle eastern descent? and is hijacking really so common an occurrence that we should be so drastic as to deplete an entire race's civil rights to try to curb it? don't forget that these nineteen men were armed with box cutters.
does anyone really think the Al Qaeda would be dumb enough to try to hijack planes again? we might as well be taking the hose to a house thats already burned down. and besides, if all these new airport security measures are just for show anyhow, why even waste time on racial profiling?
Any of you arguing the other side are lying to yourselves and us if you say you'd be more comfortable (or as comfortable) sitting on an airplane next to a swarthy twenty-one-year-old male in a turban as you would sitting next to a seventy-year-old white woman.
I would be just as comfortable in either case. just because you may be gripped by racial paranoia, it doesn't mean everyone else is. personally, I'd be more uncomrtable sitting next to someone like you.
posted by mcsweetie at 5:20 PM on February 10, 2002
where are the numbers that say the majority of all hijackings are committed by people of middle eastern descent? and is hijacking really so common an occurrence that we should be so drastic as to deplete an entire race's civil rights to try to curb it? don't forget that these nineteen men were armed with box cutters.
does anyone really think the Al Qaeda would be dumb enough to try to hijack planes again? we might as well be taking the hose to a house thats already burned down. and besides, if all these new airport security measures are just for show anyhow, why even waste time on racial profiling?
Any of you arguing the other side are lying to yourselves and us if you say you'd be more comfortable (or as comfortable) sitting on an airplane next to a swarthy twenty-one-year-old male in a turban as you would sitting next to a seventy-year-old white woman.
I would be just as comfortable in either case. just because you may be gripped by racial paranoia, it doesn't mean everyone else is. personally, I'd be more uncomrtable sitting next to someone like you.
posted by mcsweetie at 5:20 PM on February 10, 2002
"I would be just as comfortable in either case. just because you may be gripped by racial paranoia, it doesn't mean everyone else is. personally, I'd be more uncomrtable sitting next to someone like you."
Oh, please. You're so enlightened, aren't you? I suppose you walk up and down the streets of the most crime-ridden neighborhood in your hometown with hundred-dollar bills hanging out of your pockets, because you know deep in your heart that the crime statistics are skewed because of a police conspiracy to keep the minorities and the poverty-stricken under their boots, and there's not a chance in hell that you'll ever be robbed because everyone is just like you, full of goodness and light and love of his fellow man regardless of his station in life. Except, of course, for those people who might dare to suggest that there is such a thing as good and bad, and that it's possible to make the world a bit safer for starry-eyed idealists like you by actually paying attention to what's going on and acting on real-world information instead of burying their heads in the sand and waiting for the next attack to confirm that, yes, there is a certain demographic of people in the world who want to kill as many of your countrymen as they possibly can and earn their place at the right hand of Mohammed himself.
I won't even address your charge of "racial paranoia". You don't know me, so you have no idea of the framework from which I speak.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:06 PM on February 10, 2002
Oh, please. You're so enlightened, aren't you? I suppose you walk up and down the streets of the most crime-ridden neighborhood in your hometown with hundred-dollar bills hanging out of your pockets, because you know deep in your heart that the crime statistics are skewed because of a police conspiracy to keep the minorities and the poverty-stricken under their boots, and there's not a chance in hell that you'll ever be robbed because everyone is just like you, full of goodness and light and love of his fellow man regardless of his station in life. Except, of course, for those people who might dare to suggest that there is such a thing as good and bad, and that it's possible to make the world a bit safer for starry-eyed idealists like you by actually paying attention to what's going on and acting on real-world information instead of burying their heads in the sand and waiting for the next attack to confirm that, yes, there is a certain demographic of people in the world who want to kill as many of your countrymen as they possibly can and earn their place at the right hand of Mohammed himself.
I won't even address your charge of "racial paranoia". You don't know me, so you have no idea of the framework from which I speak.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:06 PM on February 10, 2002
Good policework involves a lot more than just profiling due to name and appearance. It's just as simple as that.
Suspicious characters, such as shoe-bomber Richard Ried (not middle-eastern, as far as I know, and with a European name) are what need to be looked for. Bombs can be taken on board by unsuspecting people, they can be taken by girlfriends, wives, friends, etc.
Racial profiling might be one part of the process, but only on the most shallow level.... But it isn't going to solve the problem, and it could allow others to slip through the gate while Mohammed the university prof. is being strip-searched.
posted by chaz at 6:39 PM on February 10, 2002
Suspicious characters, such as shoe-bomber Richard Ried (not middle-eastern, as far as I know, and with a European name) are what need to be looked for. Bombs can be taken on board by unsuspecting people, they can be taken by girlfriends, wives, friends, etc.
Racial profiling might be one part of the process, but only on the most shallow level.... But it isn't going to solve the problem, and it could allow others to slip through the gate while Mohammed the university prof. is being strip-searched.
posted by chaz at 6:39 PM on February 10, 2002
Oh and Crash, you clearly have a paranoia problem. It's pretty obvious from the way you write with such lucid insight into "the certain demographic" who want to earn "their place at the right hand of Mohammed himself." You are inflating these terrorists into something poetic, venal, larger-than-life, when they're really just killers for a misguided cause.
posted by chaz at 6:44 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by chaz at 6:44 PM on February 10, 2002
I have a "paranoia problem" because, in your words, I'm suspicious of "killers for a misguided cause"? Should I turn a blind eye because the first nineteen were "misguided"? At this point in history, young male Muslims are are threat to airliners. Fifty years ago, they were not, and had I been alive at that time I would have paid no attention to them. Because I am willing to state the obvious at this point in time, I am somehow paranoid? Name one other group whose stated mission is to "kill Americans where they can, when they can".
Get a grip on reality, chaz. There is a clearly defined demographic that wants Americans to die. Refusing to acknowledge that is not only naive, it's shameful.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:53 PM on February 10, 2002
Get a grip on reality, chaz. There is a clearly defined demographic that wants Americans to die. Refusing to acknowledge that is not only naive, it's shameful.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:53 PM on February 10, 2002
Yes!!!! The Aliens want to kill the Americans!!!! Just watch Independence Day closely... the truth is out there...
posted by kv at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by kv at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2002
btw, those of you who say mcveigh, walker, reid and the florida plane dude are 'red herrings' and 'aborations'... so were Atta and the other 9/11 guys. They are all aborations. You fucking idiots.
posted by delmoi at 7:15 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by delmoi at 7:15 PM on February 10, 2002
Except, of course, for those people who might dare to suggest that there is such a thing as good and bad
I never said there wasn't.
acting on real-world information instead of burying their heads in the sand and waiting for the next attack to confirm that, yes, there is a certain demographic of people in the world who want to kill as many of your countrymen as they possibly can
but I haven't seen any evidence that racial profiling is effective at all (I've done quite a bit of searching, but since you are so interested in real world information it would probably be small potatoes for you to find some numbers. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't have said anything, right?). it seems to me like if we start heckling people that look middle eastern, it opens a huge window of vulernability for nut cases of all races to try something funny.
You don't know me, so you have no idea of the framework from which I speak.
funny you should say that, considering everything you put in the paragraph before it. could I get a seat in the cognitive dissonance free section?
At this point in history, young male Muslims are are threat to airliners.
explain to me again how that isn't racial paranoia?
posted by mcsweetie at 7:17 PM on February 10, 2002
I never said there wasn't.
acting on real-world information instead of burying their heads in the sand and waiting for the next attack to confirm that, yes, there is a certain demographic of people in the world who want to kill as many of your countrymen as they possibly can
but I haven't seen any evidence that racial profiling is effective at all (I've done quite a bit of searching, but since you are so interested in real world information it would probably be small potatoes for you to find some numbers. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't have said anything, right?). it seems to me like if we start heckling people that look middle eastern, it opens a huge window of vulernability for nut cases of all races to try something funny.
You don't know me, so you have no idea of the framework from which I speak.
funny you should say that, considering everything you put in the paragraph before it. could I get a seat in the cognitive dissonance free section?
At this point in history, young male Muslims are are threat to airliners.
explain to me again how that isn't racial paranoia?
posted by mcsweetie at 7:17 PM on February 10, 2002
mcsweetie:
paranoia:
A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
Extreme, irrational distrust of others.
Expain to me where my opinion that young, male Muslims are most likely to attempt to hijack an American airliner in order to kill Americans fits into that definition. I shan't try to prove a negative.
Allow me to point to this article in support of my position.
In closing, I ask you if you remember the following quote: "address the issue, not the arguer!".
Does it seem reasonable to you? It should. You said it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2002
paranoia:
A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
Extreme, irrational distrust of others.
Expain to me where my opinion that young, male Muslims are most likely to attempt to hijack an American airliner in order to kill Americans fits into that definition. I shan't try to prove a negative.
Allow me to point to this article in support of my position.
In closing, I ask you if you remember the following quote: "address the issue, not the arguer!".
Does it seem reasonable to you? It should. You said it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2002
At this point in history, young male Muslims are are threat to airliners.
No, they're not. It's a statistical fallacy. On 9/11, nineteen specific young male Muslims were a threat to our national security, but their age, gender and religion is only a description of them. They were not a threat because they were male or Muslim, they were a threat because of the ideas that they held. Post 9/11, the threat to our national security is exactly what it's always been -- any person, of any age, gender or religion who seeks to do harm and is not afraid to surrender their own life in the process. Our enemies come in every shape, size and colour -- al-Qaeda is not the only threat to us, and it would be remarkably short-sighted and stupid of us to continue in this line of behaviour which pretends that they are.
We already know that one American and three British citizens were among Taliban fighters at the Mazar-i-Sharif prison uprising. We already know that the al-Qaeda cells in the U.S. have networked with and received aid from non-Muslims -- whites, in fact. We have already heard from captured al-Qaeda members that following 9/11, the extant cells in the U.S. were recruiting non-Arabs for their next phase of terror operations, and even if it isn't true, it is unfortunately very true there there are non-Arabs who loathe this country and see nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians in an attempt to destroy us from within.
Security for our nation -- beyond the airports -- must take many tacks, including, but hardly limited to, the immediate deportation all foreign nationals who are not here legally, (of any race, national origin or political persuasion) and continued efforts to root out cells and their funding sources.
It need not include false cures, such as ridding our skies of tweezers and grandma's crochet hooks. But it also need not, and should not include racial profiling, because homicidal anti-Americanism is not endemic nor limited to one ethnicity of people.
posted by Dreama at 7:41 PM on February 10, 2002 [1 favorite]
No, they're not. It's a statistical fallacy. On 9/11, nineteen specific young male Muslims were a threat to our national security, but their age, gender and religion is only a description of them. They were not a threat because they were male or Muslim, they were a threat because of the ideas that they held. Post 9/11, the threat to our national security is exactly what it's always been -- any person, of any age, gender or religion who seeks to do harm and is not afraid to surrender their own life in the process. Our enemies come in every shape, size and colour -- al-Qaeda is not the only threat to us, and it would be remarkably short-sighted and stupid of us to continue in this line of behaviour which pretends that they are.
We already know that one American and three British citizens were among Taliban fighters at the Mazar-i-Sharif prison uprising. We already know that the al-Qaeda cells in the U.S. have networked with and received aid from non-Muslims -- whites, in fact. We have already heard from captured al-Qaeda members that following 9/11, the extant cells in the U.S. were recruiting non-Arabs for their next phase of terror operations, and even if it isn't true, it is unfortunately very true there there are non-Arabs who loathe this country and see nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians in an attempt to destroy us from within.
Security for our nation -- beyond the airports -- must take many tacks, including, but hardly limited to, the immediate deportation all foreign nationals who are not here legally, (of any race, national origin or political persuasion) and continued efforts to root out cells and their funding sources.
It need not include false cures, such as ridding our skies of tweezers and grandma's crochet hooks. But it also need not, and should not include racial profiling, because homicidal anti-Americanism is not endemic nor limited to one ethnicity of people.
posted by Dreama at 7:41 PM on February 10, 2002 [1 favorite]
Expain to me where my opinion that young, male Muslims are most likely to attempt to hijack an American airliner in order to kill Americans fits into that definition. I shan't try to prove a negative.
thats easy. young muslim != member of Al Qaeda.
In closing, I ask you if you remember the following quote: "address the issue, not the arguer!".
oooo sizzle! I am addressing the issue, but it just so happens that the arguer can't distinguish between all young muslims (840 million muslims in all, not sure how many are young, or how age is relevant for that matter) and members of one terrorist network (>10,000 members).
posted by mcsweetie at 7:46 PM on February 10, 2002
thats easy. young muslim != member of Al Qaeda.
In closing, I ask you if you remember the following quote: "address the issue, not the arguer!".
oooo sizzle! I am addressing the issue, but it just so happens that the arguer can't distinguish between all young muslims (840 million muslims in all, not sure how many are young, or how age is relevant for that matter) and members of one terrorist network (>10,000 members).
posted by mcsweetie at 7:46 PM on February 10, 2002
"We already know that the al-Qaeda cells in the U.S. have networked with and received aid from non-Muslims -- whites, in fact."
I challenge you to name two.
"...it is unfortunately very true there there are non-Arabs who loathe this country and see nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians in an attempt to destroy us from within."
"...homicidal anti-Americanism is not endemic nor limited to one ethnicity of people."
I agree with both of those statements. However, as before, I challenge you to name any two who attempted to do this by crashing an airliner into a populated area. For the purposes of this debate we are (at least I am) confining our arguments to the hijacking of commercial airliners.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:47 PM on February 10, 2002
I challenge you to name two.
"...it is unfortunately very true there there are non-Arabs who loathe this country and see nothing wrong with killing innocent civilians in an attempt to destroy us from within."
"...homicidal anti-Americanism is not endemic nor limited to one ethnicity of people."
I agree with both of those statements. However, as before, I challenge you to name any two who attempted to do this by crashing an airliner into a populated area. For the purposes of this debate we are (at least I am) confining our arguments to the hijacking of commercial airliners.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:47 PM on February 10, 2002
"I am addressing the issue, but it just so happens that the arguer can't distinguish between all young muslims (840 million muslims in all, not sure how many are young, or how age is relevant for that matter) and members of one terrorist network (>10,000 members)."
Well, there are over a billion Chinese, and I haven't yet heard of any of them hijacking an airliner and flying it into a building. Statistically, that would seem to indicate that Chinese terrorists are less likely to hijack airplanes and kill civilians by crashing them.
Maybe my math is suspect, though. Can you support your theory that young Muslim males are no more likely to commit this crime than any other demographic?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:50 PM on February 10, 2002
Well, there are over a billion Chinese, and I haven't yet heard of any of them hijacking an airliner and flying it into a building. Statistically, that would seem to indicate that Chinese terrorists are less likely to hijack airplanes and kill civilians by crashing them.
Maybe my math is suspect, though. Can you support your theory that young Muslim males are no more likely to commit this crime than any other demographic?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:50 PM on February 10, 2002
Can you support your theory that young Muslim males are no more likely to commit this crime than any other demographic?
I don't have to because it's inherently flawed in the first place. just because muslims have hijacked planes before, it doesn't mean there is something innate in their nature that would invariably lead them. if the majority of all muslims hijacked planes, then you might have a case.
posted by mcsweetie at 8:21 PM on February 10, 2002
I don't have to because it's inherently flawed in the first place. just because muslims have hijacked planes before, it doesn't mean there is something innate in their nature that would invariably lead them. if the majority of all muslims hijacked planes, then you might have a case.
posted by mcsweetie at 8:21 PM on February 10, 2002
"just because muslims have hijacked planes before, it doesn't mean there is something innate in their nature that would invariably lead them." ( I suspect there was more to this comment)
Again, I have to disagree. Surprise. This interview, which I mentioned earlier, clearly indicates that Osama bin Laden has called for Muslims to kill Americans whenever possible, by whatever means possible. I do not suggest that all Muslims, or even most Muslims, subscribe to this philosophy. What I am saying is that, given the fatwa issued by bin Laden, and given the recent history of his followers to attempt to fulfill that fatwa, we would be remiss to ignore young male Muslims of Middle Eastern heritage (all nineteen of the 9/11 hijackers fit this profile, and they are the bulk of bin Laden's followers) when we are attempting to assess the possible threat to commercial airliners.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:38 PM on February 10, 2002
Again, I have to disagree. Surprise. This interview, which I mentioned earlier, clearly indicates that Osama bin Laden has called for Muslims to kill Americans whenever possible, by whatever means possible. I do not suggest that all Muslims, or even most Muslims, subscribe to this philosophy. What I am saying is that, given the fatwa issued by bin Laden, and given the recent history of his followers to attempt to fulfill that fatwa, we would be remiss to ignore young male Muslims of Middle Eastern heritage (all nineteen of the 9/11 hijackers fit this profile, and they are the bulk of bin Laden's followers) when we are attempting to assess the possible threat to commercial airliners.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:38 PM on February 10, 2002
I am a threat to global security, and demand to be profiled.
posted by aramaic at 9:34 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by aramaic at 9:34 PM on February 10, 2002
I think _crash should change his name to _crap. You aren't making your case at all, dude. You really do just come across as a scapegoating, paranoid, racist crazy.
posted by donkeyschlong at 10:19 PM on February 10, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 10:19 PM on February 10, 2002
And again, for the record, the government is in fact working on a fairly sophisticated profiling system for passengers (according to the Wash Post), currently as a pilot program at certain airports, and said app does not, in fact, consider ethnic data because the designers themselves deemed it largely useless. Nineteen Arab terrorists out of millions upon millions of law-abiding Arabs simply isn't a basis for anything but a waste of computation. It's really that simple. Behavior makes you a threat, not your nose or your eyebrows or your accent.
And as someone else noted, Richard Reid, weirdo that he was, didn't fit any of the proposed ethnic profiles, unless you really are a racist and deem him a threat because he's half Jamaican (i.e., "dark"). Ass.
posted by donkeyschlong at 10:25 PM on February 10, 2002
And as someone else noted, Richard Reid, weirdo that he was, didn't fit any of the proposed ethnic profiles, unless you really are a racist and deem him a threat because he's half Jamaican (i.e., "dark"). Ass.
posted by donkeyschlong at 10:25 PM on February 10, 2002
Like women. My statistics might be off by a decimal or two, but in between the time they spend having pillow fights and slowly trying on lingerie, not one woman has ever highjacked a plane.
Parts of Seanbaby's little rant cracked me up (the Menudo drum...) but in terms of being a serious argument, some of his assumptions are just factually wrong. One of the most notorious PLO hijackings comes to mind - El Al flight 219 to New York in 1970, lead by Leila Khaled.
posted by lizs at 10:33 PM on February 10, 2002
Parts of Seanbaby's little rant cracked me up (the Menudo drum...) but in terms of being a serious argument, some of his assumptions are just factually wrong. One of the most notorious PLO hijackings comes to mind - El Al flight 219 to New York in 1970, lead by Leila Khaled.
posted by lizs at 10:33 PM on February 10, 2002
What I am saying is that, given the fatwa issued by bin Laden, and given the recent history of his followers to attempt to fulfill that fatwa, we would be remiss to ignore young male Muslims of Middle Eastern heritage (all nineteen of the 9/11 hijackers fit this profile, and they are the bulk of bin Laden's followers) when we are attempting to assess the possible threat to commercial airliners.
now it's young male muslims? dare I even mention the american taliban soldier! should we stop all young men with scraggly beards? and where on earth did you get that information about the race of his followers? if we knew how many of them there are and their race, wouldn't we know where they are and have wiped them out by now?
but imagine that some crazy little militia declared war on america. would you have every caucasian stopped and searched before they were allowed on a plane? your logic simply does not hold up. and even if it did, it's just not ethical.
posted by mcsweetie at 10:48 PM on February 10, 2002
now it's young male muslims? dare I even mention the american taliban soldier! should we stop all young men with scraggly beards? and where on earth did you get that information about the race of his followers? if we knew how many of them there are and their race, wouldn't we know where they are and have wiped them out by now?
but imagine that some crazy little militia declared war on america. would you have every caucasian stopped and searched before they were allowed on a plane? your logic simply does not hold up. and even if it did, it's just not ethical.
posted by mcsweetie at 10:48 PM on February 10, 2002
we're only accusing you of being of the only race that has a CHANCE of being a highjacking murderer. Searching white people and hoping to find a terrorist is like...
This whole "race" question interests me. I've been filling out a lot of affirmative action forms lately, and they specify as "white" anyone whose origins are with "the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa." And yet, post-9/11, I'm reading a lot of "Arab" and "Middle Eastern" vs. "white." Right now it's hard to imagine a more disfavored group. But you have to be from S/E/SE Asia to be legally "non-white" (aka "minority"). Does anyone know more about the legal details (the history of the phraseology, or of court challenges) or have other thoughts about this?
posted by Zurishaddai at 12:31 AM on February 11, 2002
This whole "race" question interests me. I've been filling out a lot of affirmative action forms lately, and they specify as "white" anyone whose origins are with "the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa." And yet, post-9/11, I'm reading a lot of "Arab" and "Middle Eastern" vs. "white." Right now it's hard to imagine a more disfavored group. But you have to be from S/E/SE Asia to be legally "non-white" (aka "minority"). Does anyone know more about the legal details (the history of the phraseology, or of court challenges) or have other thoughts about this?
posted by Zurishaddai at 12:31 AM on February 11, 2002
I find it very disturbing that there is bickering amongst Americans concerning an entire group of people that have vowed to give their lives in order to kill ANY American by any means available. Racial profiling is a violation of civil rights, surely- that's not debatable...however, when anyone can be a cold-blooded killer of innocent woman and children, you have to get any advantage you can- even if the individual is an American citizen. Wrong to do so? Yes. Practical? Unfortunately, yes. If you don't like it- get out...move out of the country- we'll get along fine with out you. I care more about the lives of my friends and family more than I care for anyone else's civil rights (on this issue only)...sorry.
On the issue of race- I take great offense at that question- especially on gov't work application forms...I am HUMAN- that's my "race"- I am American- that's is where I was born and I reside- therefore, American is my nationality...I always check "other"- I'm certainly not "white"...however, when I finally do get an interview for a gov't tech job, I don't get it, although I am more qualified, with out doubt, than any of the other applicants- I'm told by some in the fed that this is because my skin is light in color...but I digress...
On the issue of addressing a person's comments/opinions by attacking them personally- don't give a person the time of day if they use the word "dude" or call you an "ass" - this is because they have no capacity for thought/debate and hide behind an anonymous screen name. It's called "web muscles" - kind of like beer muscles...and it's a lame high school kid trick, dude.
A deeper issue is afoot here- we need to close our borders- period. No new immigration...sorry- I know it's an unpopular position, but it's mine- offered up with my real name and all...
posted by ayukna at 1:23 AM on February 11, 2002
On the issue of race- I take great offense at that question- especially on gov't work application forms...I am HUMAN- that's my "race"- I am American- that's is where I was born and I reside- therefore, American is my nationality...I always check "other"- I'm certainly not "white"...however, when I finally do get an interview for a gov't tech job, I don't get it, although I am more qualified, with out doubt, than any of the other applicants- I'm told by some in the fed that this is because my skin is light in color...but I digress...
On the issue of addressing a person's comments/opinions by attacking them personally- don't give a person the time of day if they use the word "dude" or call you an "ass" - this is because they have no capacity for thought/debate and hide behind an anonymous screen name. It's called "web muscles" - kind of like beer muscles...and it's a lame high school kid trick, dude.
A deeper issue is afoot here- we need to close our borders- period. No new immigration...sorry- I know it's an unpopular position, but it's mine- offered up with my real name and all...
posted by ayukna at 1:23 AM on February 11, 2002
In the interest of making everyone happy: you are all right.
Would racial profiling of Arabs help to decrease terrorism? I think that it would, considering that Arabs constitute a statistically larger portion of terrorists.
Does that justify racial profiling? Not to me or anyone else who values civil rights.
There are lots of crimes that could be discovered by trampling our civil rights. Wanna catch marijuana users? Conduct unannounced raids of college dorms. Wanna catch unlicensed gun owners? Break into homes and conduct searches of bedroom closets. Wanna crack down on "illicit" sexual activity? Peep into bedroom windows.
The point, however, is not whether violating an individual's civil rights makes "us" feel safer, but whether violating an individual's civil rights is JUST, as determined by our collective morality and our system of laws. The question we have all got to ask is, "Is it worth it?"
All of this is compunded by the fact that it is always easier to accept injustice against groups that we do not belong to. And anyone who counters by saying that they, too, would gladly suffer the indignity of racial profiling if it meant safer streets and skies, has either never experienced racism on a firsthand basis or has given up on what it means to be an American.
posted by conquistador at 12:23 PM on February 11, 2002
Would racial profiling of Arabs help to decrease terrorism? I think that it would, considering that Arabs constitute a statistically larger portion of terrorists.
Does that justify racial profiling? Not to me or anyone else who values civil rights.
There are lots of crimes that could be discovered by trampling our civil rights. Wanna catch marijuana users? Conduct unannounced raids of college dorms. Wanna catch unlicensed gun owners? Break into homes and conduct searches of bedroom closets. Wanna crack down on "illicit" sexual activity? Peep into bedroom windows.
The point, however, is not whether violating an individual's civil rights makes "us" feel safer, but whether violating an individual's civil rights is JUST, as determined by our collective morality and our system of laws. The question we have all got to ask is, "Is it worth it?"
All of this is compunded by the fact that it is always easier to accept injustice against groups that we do not belong to. And anyone who counters by saying that they, too, would gladly suffer the indignity of racial profiling if it meant safer streets and skies, has either never experienced racism on a firsthand basis or has given up on what it means to be an American.
posted by conquistador at 12:23 PM on February 11, 2002
Well said.
posted by donkeyschlong at 1:03 PM on February 11, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 1:03 PM on February 11, 2002
So I'm reading through the thread, temper rising, starting to plan out my response -- and get to the end to see that conquistador already said everything I was going to. And much better than I would have.
posted by ook at 3:47 PM on February 11, 2002
posted by ook at 3:47 PM on February 11, 2002
If you don't like it- get out...move out of the country- we'll get along fine with out you.
Amen! And since Dylan Harris and Eric Harris were white males who wanted to crash a plane into New York city, we should expel all the white males as well!
Don't fear the logical conclusions of your arguments, friend.
posted by anildash at 6:33 PM on February 11, 2002
Amen! And since Dylan Harris and Eric Harris were white males who wanted to crash a plane into New York city, we should expel all the white males as well!
Don't fear the logical conclusions of your arguments, friend.
posted by anildash at 6:33 PM on February 11, 2002
I'd love to escort ayukna out of our country personally.
posted by donkeyschlong at 11:48 PM on February 11, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 11:48 PM on February 11, 2002
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posted by jcterminal at 12:44 AM on February 10, 2002