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Dan Savage bullying a conservative who attempted to roll back civil rights and liberties.
posted to MetaFilter by Bentobox Humperdinck at 8:59 AM on June 12, 2014

Belatedly, you're a pretty shitty ally if you think your alliance means you get to dictate to oppressed people exactly how you get to ignore or minimize or insult their complaints.
True, but that's not what happened in this instance.
posted to MetaFilter by FreezBoy at 8:32 AM on June 12, 2014

Purity tests are by no means the sole domain of the left anymore.

Right, and now would seem to be a golden opportunity for "the left," whatever that may consist of these days, to exploit those divisions.

But instead of focusing on pocketbook issues that affect everyone, what I see is a left consumed - in some cases, almost entirely - by identity politics. And here, in this instance, in this thread, is that... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by kgasmart at 8:02 AM on June 12, 2014

I didn't notice Dan Savage being anti-women, that was news to me, can anyone provide the case evidence?
posted to MetaFilter by C.A.S. at 7:51 AM on June 12, 2014

Here's a supplemental link - a student perspective on the issue. It was linked in Dan Savage's article but stands on its own. In particular, this quote stands out to me:

I believe the approach these students are taking is unfortunate, questionable, and destructive. It is akin to transforming important, under-discussed topics into minefields—mines that even LGBTQ allies will, and already are beginning to, fear setting off too much to even broach the subjects. If... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by LSK at 7:35 AM on June 12, 2014

I'm going to argue the other side. I'm so glad i'm not in university anymore, or any other hothouse of eager indignation, where people's intentions and purposes of languages have no bearing whatsoever. Dan Savage is probably the most (blank)osexual-friendly force out there.

The other day, I was stuck in a lane of unmoving traffic. I started to do a u-turn to go into the empty lane the other way. Far, far in the distance was a cyclist peddling away. I indicated,... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by C.A.S. at 7:31 AM on June 12, 2014

Dan Savage is right and attacking allies for quibbles is useless. If you can't use a word in a discussion about why you can't use a word you are beyond common sense objections.

I'll leave this here from his blog post. "It and its friend are young. And foolish. And playing games." Exactly right. Equality is not a game. You cannot win activism. Grow up.
posted to MetaFilter by Potomac Avenue at 7:31 AM on June 12, 2014

royalsong: "One of the best things about Metafilter is the ability to express those opinions and be respected."

This is not one of the things I'm seeing much of lately. The vitriol and mean-spirited comments have been shocking.
posted to MetaTalk by Big_B at 9:10 AM on June 12, 2014

I didn't comment in the Trader Joe's question because it seemed to be the BunnyUltramod show. Even though BU had some good points the amount of comments and immediate emphatic responses left no room for expansion of any other viewpoint and other viewpoints then became entrenched and angry the opposite way.

Also what is with the comparisons to trans* threads and treatment of women in Metafilter??? You know, apart from the fact that trans*women are women? Please. I am new... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by biggreenplant at 5:16 AM on June 12, 2014

That teachers get the sort of job protection I have--at the end of the second year--strikes me as absurd.

They are coming for you next, you know.
posted to MetaFilter by thelonius at 2:11 AM on June 12, 2014

I'm honestly not sure how much this will really affect teachers, since frankly, you have to be insane in the first place to teach these days. I say, having been in the education field for two decades.
posted to MetaFilter by happyroach at 12:52 AM on June 12, 2014

Dude should know, honestly, that as soon as someone identifies themself as a journalist, that you kick that up to the PR folks

Sure, but I don't see where she ever identified herself as a journalist (I just went back and checked, but correct me if I'm wrong).
posted to MetaTalk by oinopaponton at 6:11 PM on June 11, 2014

To think otherwise suggests you're responding to a phantom feminist menace.

This is not at all why I am bothered by her using his name and I don't understand why you would think this. The op-ed doesn't paint him in a terrible light. He's a middle manager who reacted about how you would expect a middle manager to react. Her use of his name bothers me because I don't see why she chose to include it at all except out of spite, as her problem is with... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by oinopaponton at 6:53 PM on June 11, 2014

Since a motion to adjourn is always in order, can I ask that this thread be closed? I don't really see any good outcome for this.
posted to MetaTalk by wenestvedt at 12:17 PM on June 11, 2014

I also felt there was a lot of "tone attacks" based on her behavior. It was wrong of her to call that guy out by name. It was wrong of her to use her power as a blog editor to write this rather than going through "appropriate channels".

How are these questions of tone? Whether she used the guy's name or not is not a matter of tone, it's a matter of substance. She made this guy into a public figure against his will to her site's... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by enn at 12:07 PM on June 11, 2014

Well, PR people have a right to their opinion, but if you don't want to measure dicks, don't wave yours around first.

I'm not "waving anything around." Nor am I appealing to authority. I am speaking only from my professional experience. I find the metaphor particularly distasteful and would appreciate it if you and gingerest would drop it.

There is a huge difference between investigative journalism, public affairs... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by zarq at 7:20 PM on June 11, 2014

So do i not have a legitimate grievance that his full name was posted? because people in the thread are literally googling him and finding out info. You, in fact, were one of the people who did that.

I'm not trying to be a nit picking asshole, and i've already said i take no issue with objecting to the song being played on whatever muzak/DMX/etc service they use. It's just like, why publicly throw that guy under the bus?

It's either an angry... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by emptythought at 6:01 PM on June 11, 2014

Fists O'Fury: "Actually, I find that looking in on these threads actually pushes me to the right."

I haven't read the Trader Joes thread. I'm commenting here because my impression is that this thread isn't about the Trader Joes thread, but about misogyny in MeFi. From what divabat said at the start of this MeTa, I totally agree with her and her goals. However, I'm not about to wade into the Trader Joe's thread, nor to read every comment in... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by Bugbread at 5:32 PM on June 11, 2014

Yeah, it didn't get flagged much, and I don't know why that is,

Yeah, I didn't flag it, because a cursory read made it feel like Op-Ed (and, to me, clickbaity op-ed), and that kind of thing is just not for me - though I recognise it as a common and popular-with-many 'genre' of post.

To put it more succinctly: I see op-ed posts of similar levels of quality posted all the time; flagging seems to be redundant. They don't often... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by smoke at 4:59 PM on June 11, 2014

"Yeah, you know what? I know as much about this stuff as the people who tend to lecture me about it around here, and, to be perfectly honest, I seem to have thought much more deeply about it."

I would find it a bit presumptuous if a woman told me she knew as much about what men deal with than I did; I have found it presumptuous in the past when New Yorkers have told me that they knew as much about the Midwest than I did (me having grown up there).
posted to MetaTalk by klangklangston at 5:09 PM on June 11, 2014

It's also an opinion held by some of us who have been here a long time.

Well, sure. I was responding to something a site member said upthread, so clearly there are folks here who feel that way too.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions about stuff, and everyone is equally able to shape the culture of the place through their participation (or, equally, to let the status quo ride by not actively... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:15 PM on June 11, 2014

Just shopping at Trader Joe's is an expression of white, middle class privilege, really.
posted to MetaTalk by KokuRyu at 11:48 AM on June 11, 2014

"Cite?"


No. I've had it. Too many people in this thread have already demonstrated that they are incapable of debating in good faith. I've wasted too much time on it already.
posted to MetaTalk by mikeand1 at 11:48 AM on June 11, 2014

I am actually wondering, as a legitimate question, why people dismissed this as clickbait.

http://www.alternet.org

If you click the link above, you'll end up at alternets homepage. The list of articles there will give you an idea of what that site is all about.
posted to MetaTalk by valkane at 4:48 PM on June 11, 2014

Like i mean, this meta has become way more mean spirited and shitty than the actual thread has gone, anywhere i've seen.
posted to MetaTalk by emptythought at 3:52 PM on June 11, 2014

When I say "stalwart defense" and "twisting into knots" I'm referring to people I can't imagine being supportive of the author's behavior in any other context or situation.

Printing out the lyrics to a song you heard on a previous visit, streamed from a 3rd party, which is contracted by a giant corporation, of which the employee may or may not be a local manager of, and then putting that persons full name on your website is not awesome behavior and... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by lattiboy at 3:51 PM on June 11, 2014

There's an iPhone-camera-sucks reputation? I'd always heard the opposite, at least in the world of camera phones.

No, there isn't. No idea what MtDewd is referring to. The iPhone has been rated as the best, or at least close to the best, for years now.

The only gripes I generally hear about the iPhone are those clueless enough to believe megapixels are the deciding factor when it comes to cameras, and that's an area Apple has not chosen to compete.
posted to MetaFilter by justgary at 2:25 PM on June 11, 2014

e.g., this review from dpreview.com: "image quality under most conditions is among the top of the class of 'conventional' smartphone camera units".
posted to MetaFilter by BurntHombre at 1:01 PM on June 11, 2014

There's an iPhone-camera-sucks reputation? I'd always heard the opposite, at least in the world of camera phones.
posted to MetaFilter by BurntHombre at 12:56 PM on June 11, 2014

So as it stands: author didn't fact check the Meridith thing, or wrote it poorly and then corrected it without highlighting the correction = easy to dismiss everything she wrote
Numerous people insist she bullied a minimum-wage clerk, and that her income vastly outstripped his; disproven by basic Googling = no problem, people who did the googling are twisted in knots


Oh god, it isn't just the Meredith thing. It was a lot of... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by lattiboy at 3:42 PM on June 11, 2014

Can we at least make a token effort not to call one another names or lump one another into categories? This thread makes me practically ill for how crappy both sides are being to one another.
posted to MetaTalk by ElliotH at 2:19 PM on June 11, 2014

ElliotH: "Can we at least make a token effort not to call one another names or lump one another into categories? This thread makes me practically ill for how crappy both sides are being to one another."

Yeah this. It's pretty telling when actual comments of people attempting to have a conversation are met with derision and sarcasm. When you do that you aren't interested in hashing out a damn thing, only in keeping the fire going.... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by Big_B at 2:29 PM on June 11, 2014

I wish the piece had been better written, that the writer had known the corporate structure of Trader Joe's better, that she had been nicer to the person she talked to face-to-face and not used his full name, and that she had known Meredith Hunter was a man. Maybe then we could have had an interesting conversation about confronting the little needles of day-to-day sexism we run into.

I agree with this. Her article reminded me of the saying:... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by Shouraku at 3:05 PM on June 11, 2014

Does that sound about right if read in a detached-from-the-biggest-obvious-issues sort of way? I'm trying to figure out how to predict/re-rail these kinds of things, what we could do as mods to prevent them from spiraling, but this one is super tough.

It was a single link op-ed OutrageFilter post. Yeah, it didn't get flagged much, and I don't know why that is, but still - fact remains.

I think you guys should... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 3:04 PM on June 11, 2014

I was interested in the idea behind the piece. I've heard music with lyrics I hated in stores plenty of times, but it never crossed my mind to do anything about it other than roll my eyes. I wish the piece had been better written, that the writer had known the corporate structure of Trader Joe's better, that she had been nicer to the person she talked to face-to-face and not used his full name, and that she had known Meredith Hunter was a man.

Maybe then we could have... [more]
posted to MetaTalk by The corpse in the library at 2:59 PM on June 11, 2014

I just thought I'd point out that the writer did know Meredith was a "he" as evidenced by her using that pronoun later in the sentence.

That entire paragraph was dramatically altered since the article was first posted.

In a grim twist of fate, it was actually the song the Stones were playing when a fan named Meridith Hunter was stabbed to death
by members of the Hell's Angels hired as... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Pudhoho at 9:44 AM on June 11, 2014

> I just thought I'd point out that the writer did know Meredith was a "he" as evidenced by her using that pronoun later in the sentence.

That sentence was edited after publication to correct the spelling of Meredith's name and add some new details (including his gender). The original version used no pronouns.
posted to MetaFilter by mbrubeck at 9:10 AM on June 11, 2014

Something we all need to view.
posted to MetaTalk by Talez at 2:24 PM on June 11, 2014

I opened the FPP when it had only one or two responses. I just went 'ugh' and moved on without flagging.
posted to MetaTalk by Pudhoho at 1:29 PM on June 11, 2014

I didn't flag it because I didn't blame people's behavior in the comments on the quality of the article. It wasn't the article's fault.
posted to MetaTalk by zarq at 1:31 PM on June 11, 2014

I don't really know how we're supposed to act anymore. I thought the original claim, that "Under My Thumb" is sexist, wasn't terribly convincing but okay, it's worth debating. I also thought the author of that piece acted like an asshole about it, both in the store and by publishing the piece. But the thread turned into full-on "if you attack THIS woman you are attacking ALL women" so I left before I could be accused of being an MRA apologist.
posted to MetaTalk by 2bucksplus at 1:17 PM on June 11, 2014

I think at the core it's an op-ed about a microaggression

That's interesting, because as I read the article, I thought it was about what is acceptable in a song lyric today versus 50 years ago. But I work in the music business, so of course that's the lens I'm going to look at it from on first read. I think this was a uniquely flammable article that everybody naturally brings their own baggage to.
posted to MetaTalk by jbickers at 1:24 PM on June 11, 2014

often the same ones over and over

This is such LOL coming from you. You post more nasty comments in gender threads than a dozen of the people you are complaining about do combined.
posted to MetaTalk by 0 at 12:33 PM on June 11, 2014

All comers, likewise. Massively tired of this sidebar.

Yet, it keeps coming up, indicating it's an issue for some.
posted to MetaTalk by Brandon Blatcher at 12:20 PM on June 11, 2014

when a man on the internet tries to justify "mansplaining" to me in his explanation, isn't that mansplaining too?
posted to MetaTalk by bruce at 12:12 PM on June 11, 2014

zombieflanders: And yet you continue to hold forth on the problem, having admitted that you not only didn't follow the extensive discussion, but steadfastly refuse to do so, So There.

Holy fuck, I really need to spell this out for you, eh? I (me) stopped (no more) reading (looking at) the actual post (the words written by divabat up top) at that word (mansplaining).
posted to MetaTalk by gman at 12:10 PM on June 11, 2014

divabat: "My point" being that the "zomg why did you use the word 'mansplain'" seemed like a derail and a diversion.

Right, then maybe don't use it if you don't want people to tune out what might be an important topic. It's like PETA; they do some great work and have an important message, but their delivery converts no one. I stop reading at the word mansplain.
posted to MetaTalk by gman at 11:58 AM on June 11, 2014

Bunny Ultramod: I suppose you could open another thread about it, although I can't imagine what good it would do, but you're derailing this one, and that's a gender-neutral asshole thing to do.

Sure, because this one's going places and will have the desired outcome.
posted to MetaTalk by gman at 12:00 PM on June 11, 2014

zombieflanders: Apparently not.

I can be more clear if you'd like - I stopped reading the actual post at that word. How's that?
posted to MetaTalk by gman at 12:01 PM on June 11, 2014

Right, it is pretty unreasonable to ask someone to be familiar with the lyrics to a song that is the subject of the post.
posted to MetaTalk by entropicamericana at 11:24 AM on June 11, 2014