Ask him a question: it glances off, he obfuscates, he dances.
September 26, 2016 5:14 PM   Subscribe

Tonight at 9PM Eastern Time, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump face off at Hofstra University for the first 2016 Presidential Debate. Print out your Bingo cards and tune in to any of the major networks. Alternately, YouTube is partnering with NBC, PBS, the Washington Post, Newsmax, Fox News, Telemundo, and Univision to stream coverage. Twitter is offering Bloomberg coverage and Facebook is streaming ABC and PBS. You can even watch on your Samsung Gear VR or Oculus Rift via Altspace VR.

Note that Bloomberg is the only TV network that has committed to live fact checking onscreen. NPR will also fact check during its radio broadcast. C-SPAN, of course, will provide no commentary at all.

Per mod request, try to keep this thread so that someone can read through the it late (whether this evening or four years from now) and still make sense of it. That means try to confine yourself to substantive remarks and discussion. If you need to yell "OMG!!", use our Chat for that (if you'd rather use a non-browser interface, frimble has instructions.)

Reminder: changing your theme to Classic (on your Preferences page) helps mobile devices load large pages. Clicking on a post's timestamp updates your position in the thread, which is useful if the page reloads (e.g., after switching between tabs.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker (3725 comments total) 110 users marked this as a favorite
 
I'm already miserable and it's not even started.

If Bloomberg is fact-checking live, I'm gonna watch it on their channel.
posted by Windigo at 5:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Bloomberg is on. Time to pour the scotch and make the popcorn!
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thanks for pointing out that Bloomberg will be fact-checking, ChurchHatesTucker. Very helpful.
posted by zarq at 5:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


The world is everything that is the case.

The logical statements that compose the world have led it to this. There is a radical inequality between logical statements that can sometimes have one statement exist with the importance of many millions of others.

The world is at stake, quite literally.

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
posted by hleehowon at 5:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Okay, so we're doin' this
posted by zachlipton at 5:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [50 favorites]


Clicking on a post's timestamp updates your position in the thread
mind.blown

I also just noticed, while trying to figure out WTF this meant, that you can favorite an FPP from the FRONT PAGE ITSELF.

Do I even know you Metafilter?
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


We've already eaten a bucket of popcorn and it hasn't even started.
posted by strange chain at 5:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

wouldn't that be beautiful if they both got it in they're heads to stare down the other for the first 10 minutes!
posted by sammyo at 5:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary should recreate the cane scene from Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory on the way to the podium.
posted by drezdn at 5:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]




I'm five hours behind on the old thread. Have I missed anything vital today?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:20 PM on September 26, 2016


Ensconced at a corner table at best bar in the world. If anyone in North Brooklyn needs a place to go, I recommend this place (there are 4 TVs, I have a table that can fit two more people, and they're playing 80s music until the main event starts up).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"My opponent is known for being a liar. I would rather talk with you about my vision and plans for the future of our country instead of correcting his fallacies. So tonight, I'm going to do something a little different.

My team will be fact-checking live @TheBriefing2016, and when there's a lie, I will simply [say "lie"], [make a 'thumbs down' had gesture], [cough], [write "lie" on the palm of my hand and hold it up jk I brought a mannequin hand and have placed it on the podium - look how large this hand is].

I believe in you, America. Follow @TheBriefing2016 for real-time fact-check."

[fake, for now]
posted by erisfree at 5:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


If you watch it on your Oculus, is dank Pepe moderating?
posted by jonnay at 5:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I got a 6-pack of mirror pond for this. And for the sake of my twitter friends that can't deal, I'll be commenting here exclusively.

I'm gonna love you! and squeeze you! and hug you! and dress you up!
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]






I'm five hours behind on the old thread. Have I missed anything vital today?


We figured out a sure-fire way to beat Trump.
posted by drezdn at 5:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
posted by dglynn at 5:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [36 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker: "You can even watch on your Samsung Gear VR or Oculus Rift via Altspace VR."

Or you can get a Vive and not contribute to Trump's biggest nouveau-riche fan.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


The audience is loading in for my show right now, they're going to show the debate to a crowd of 200 people. I'm at a place where I'm already feeling mild anxiety about it, so I don't know if the audience will make it better or worse.
posted by nevercalm at 5:22 PM on September 26, 2016


I'm hosting a debate party (so probably won't be in here much), and so many politically minded friends have declined because they can't handle watching the debates this year.
posted by Sara C. at 5:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Official Eschaton Debate Drinking Game
1) Open up bottle of alcohol.

2) Drink it.
posted by octothorpe at 5:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [40 favorites]


I have the day off tomorrow, a handle of Jameson, roast chicken, a little grass, and the dart gun. Red five standing by.
posted by vrakatar at 5:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [60 favorites]


L. Wittgenstein talked of the senselessness of philosophy. His life began along much the same lines as D. J. Trump, with a merciless and domineering father (K. Wittgenstein) who ruled the household with an iron fist and held that his sons would continue their outrageous business success and hatred of the world. Both had brothers who died from the psychological consequences of such treatment: Wittgenstein, by outright suicide, DJ Trump, by drink.

But they lived radically different lives, in the shadow of the fascist philosophies that impinged upon their lives: Wittgenstein put forth his austere view of the world in the dichotomy of the facts that inhere in the world, Trump in the shadow of the darkness of his own self upon the world. Wittgenstein and his siblings paid a weregeld, a thousand kings' ransom in gold to escape the shadow of Hitler. Trump lives a life pointing towards fascism.

This is the case. It is the existence of atomic facts. The world remains the case.
posted by hleehowon at 5:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


I know we dream of some elaborate system of ownage, but honestly the best thing for Hillary to do is to play it safe for this first debate and let Trump talk himself into trouble. Trump's unforced errors are Hillary's best offense.
posted by savetheclocktower at 5:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm also having combined "what if nobody comes to my party"/"what if too many people come to my party"/"oh fuck Trump is running for President and it's actually close" anxiety.
posted by Sara C. at 5:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


I made a literal plate of beans special for tonight. I won't say it has half a cup of bourbon in it, but I'm not not saying it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Empress, spill it--where are you? I'm stuck at home with sleeping kids, but otherwise I'd be there.
posted by Liesl at 5:25 PM on September 26, 2016


Much like the election, the best approach for watching may be just to black out and see what the result is after the fact.
posted by Artw at 5:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Mike Murphy of Radio Free GOP (a #NeverTrump Repub.) will be on ABC post-debate.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have made the guacamole and will be opening a brand new bottle of Glenmorangie soon. I'm watching tonight with my pro-Trump son, so I am doubly anxious.
posted by Biblio at 5:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


I have four pints of cider, a mountain of salty snacks, and a twisting feeling in my stomach that can only be relieved by Trump's humiliation.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wasn't going to watch it but someone pointed out the whole "first general election debate for a female presidential nominee evar" thing, and yeah, I have to see that. It's not HRC's fault the Republicans fucked up this year, and she's earned it.
posted by zutalors! at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Are we still doing fanfic? I hope Hillary walks on stage and karate chops Donald in the throat, crushing his windpipe
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [31 favorites]


This is a night to get drunk and talk shit at my laptop, I can't worry about the election results rn. this is my escape from that worry hahahahaha. jeeeze.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I just want to tell you both good luck, were all counting on you.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]




Mefites, we who will not watch* salute you.

*for many reasons; in my case a fear of being unable to handle my rising gorge and manage spontaneous bile eruptions.
posted by nubs at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


Went out for pizza too soon, when does this thing start? :-)
posted by sammyo at 5:28 PM on September 26, 2016


It's not impossible. She used to bulls-eye womp rats in her T-16 back home.
posted by petebest at 5:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


Debate format:
The first debate will be divided into six time segments of approximately 15 minutes each on major topics to be selected by the moderator and announced at least one week before the debate. The moderator will open each segment with a question, after which each candidate will have two minutes to respond. Candidates will then have an opportunity to respond to each other. The moderator will use the balance of the time in the segment for a deeper discussion of the topic.
Read more at http://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2016-debate-schedule/2016-presidential-debate-schedule/#gsq8LheOVKXxtQF9.99
I haven't watched a debate live in several years (just read the transcript the next day), so I could be wrong, but this seems like a novel format. I am a bit concerned that it doesn't say each candidate will get equal time (besides the two minutes) and really don't want to see Trump just talk over everyone and it be okay because of the format.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Who is the older man they keep showing? He's with a woman with long blond hair. Giuliani just took a pic with him.
posted by double bubble at 5:31 PM on September 26, 2016


She used to bulls-eye womp rats in her T-16 back home.

So that's what Trump's piece comes from.
posted by drezdn at 5:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Went out for pizza too soon, when does this thing start? :-)

"Officially just after 9:00PM Eastern" according to C-SPAN.
posted by XMLicious at 5:31 PM on September 26, 2016


It will be interesting to know afterward what % of the time Trump was talking vs. Clinton.
posted by prefpara at 5:31 PM on September 26, 2016


I got a 6-pack of mirror pond for this.

I'm on the second of a sixer of Neshaminy Creek County Line IPA. Just moved back east and figured I'd drink a swing state beer for good luck.
posted by HumuloneRanger at 5:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Liesl - just memailed you in case that was too close to being an ad.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:32 PM on September 26, 2016


Unfortunately, I have to miss this, but my liver thanks me. I can't do that much drinking anymore, not on a school night at least.
posted by Capt. Renault at 5:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I found the Bloomberg channel for the fact checking. I'm watching it with my 13 year old. It's the first time he's been interested enough to want to watch with me. I have surgery tomorrow, so I'm doing the debate with only the aid of chicken salad and a stiff black tea. I've strapped in, have my bingo cards, and am ready for some Hillary.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm sad Gennifer Flowers won't be attending, because I thought the most power move Hillary could pull would be to say "Hi Gennifer, glad to see you here! Can you give something to Donald for me? Thanks." And then she gives Gennifer the middle finger.

/fanfic
posted by fatbird at 5:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [42 favorites]


Call him a millionaire Hillary.
posted by adept256 at 5:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [33 favorites]


Note that Bloomberg is the only TV network that has committed to live fact checking onscreen.

After all, only one campaign has asked for effective permission to lie during the debates. (Trump's, of course, need I add?)
posted by Gelatin at 5:33 PM on September 26, 2016


My debate dream is for Hillary to begin with something like, "You've had a lot of say about me lately; now that we're here together I look forward to you having the courage to say them to my face."
posted by peeedro at 5:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


I've been sick for a few days with the cold from hell, which is now turning in to the sinus infection from hell. I'm sick to death of the election, but I feel like the stakes are too high not to watch the debate. I can't decide whether it's a good thing or a bad thing that I won't be able to tell whether it's the Trump that's making me ill or the actual illness. I guess maybe there's some relief it not having to know it's entirely him?
posted by mudpuppie at 5:34 PM on September 26, 2016


Although I am rethinking my nickname of "Best bar in the world" after seeing that they have chosen Fox News for their broadcast.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


From the other thread (the link was broken):

Donald Trump's Cruel Streak: For decades, the candidate has willfully inflicted pain and humiliation.
Donald J. Trump has a cruel streak. He willfully causes pain and distress to others. And he repeats this public behavior so frequently that it’s fair to call it a character trait. Any single example would be off-putting but forgivable. Being shown many examples across many years should make any decent person recoil in disgust.

Judge for yourself if these examples qualify...
posted by homunculus at 5:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Not even kidding, I've been saving the last few Ativans from a prescription a year ago and tonight I'm taking one.
posted by HotToddy at 5:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Who is the older man they keep showing? He's with a woman with long blond hair. Giuliani just took a pic with him.

Cuomo and Sandra Lee?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:35 PM on September 26, 2016


Call him a millionaire Hillary

that's like kicking him in the balls though right?
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just want to tell you both good luck, were all counting on you.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Much like the election, the best approach for watching may be just to black out and see what the result is after the fact.

Well, a fugue state isn't the best way to experience a presidential debate but I don't think anyone would blame you.
posted by indubitable at 5:36 PM on September 26, 2016


Or you can get a Vive and not contribute to Trump's biggest nouveau-riche fan.

Vive indeed also works, and there's a 2D option for Mac & PC.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:36 PM on September 26, 2016


hleehowon - Who is this Trump of which you speak?
posted by wittgenstein at 5:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary in red makes me so happy!
posted by agregoli at 5:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


C-span will have a split screen with both candidates.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:38 PM on September 26, 2016


Since I'm avoiding drinking this month, I'm avoiding social media until post debates.

I'll check back in about 2.5 hours and see how things went.

I just want to tell you both, good luck. We're all counting you.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]




Cuomo and Sandra Lee? : ) no - but it did take me a minute to figure out who she was.
posted by double bubble at 5:38 PM on September 26, 2016


Found a forgotten bottle of Aviation Gin yesterday, just in time for the presidential debate today. Some would call this coincidence but I know better.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Freaking Pence is there with a saintly face
posted by Tarumba at 5:39 PM on September 26, 2016


"Tell your dad, you try dragging Bill and Kaine up and down the floor for 48 minutes."
posted by drezdn at 5:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


CSPAN is showing the auditorium and while I'm no expert on stage lighting, it looks like the same setup as last cycle, where the lighting makes the audience invisible behind the moderator from the perspective of the podium. So all of the Gennifer Flowers and front-row intimidation stuff was pretty much just hot air. In case that wasn't clear already.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Right, the candidates won't be able to see the audience much if at all. From their POV it'll be the two candidates and Lester Holt. This shouldn't be much of a change for Trump since from his POV life is always Donald Trump and misc.
posted by Justinian at 5:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hey, I recognize that title! Thanks!

I polled a few friends on GChat, and we're split between watching from a bike at the gym, watching with a group on campus, and playing Skyrim with the debate on in the background until it gets too stressful. I'll lobby for Bloomberg on the big screen here, because they're fact-checking and CNN's livestream froze every 15 minutes during the primary debates.

I'm still signed up for Evan McMullin's emails. He informs me that he'll be livetweeting his response and also doing some things on Facebook. This is not his breakout moment.
posted by Leslie Knope at 5:40 PM on September 26, 2016




The other similarity between L. Wittgenstein and D. J. Trump is that in their entire lives they didn't really have a single person who considered them a friend and who they considered a friend, and it's pretty easy to see why. Two avatars of alienation upon the earth.

H. Arendt thought that this was the fundamental cause of totalitarianism (without characteristic reference to left or right totalitarianism) - the grand alienation that leads the inability to understand human consequences and human decision and to treat human beings as machines, the occasionalist attitude towards that grand mass of humanity that leads to religious worship of mere mortal men, the paranoia, the arbitrariness, the self-destruction, the megalomania, the despair.
posted by hleehowon at 5:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]




Mod note: A few short comments deleted --fair warning, I may not leave notes this thread when I delete short stuff. Very short/"OMG!" stuff is better in Chat, Meta stuff belongs in Meta, and I salute you all.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


Cloudy with a ten percent chance of Armageddon.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]




Much like the election, the best approach for watching may be just to black out and see what the result is after the fact.

Hangovers and bad news don't mix well.
posted by rocket88 at 5:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am totally cheating because I'm behind in last thread - Republican social media has been BLOWING UP with the Cruz endorsement - but I would not miss this, come hell, high water, or orange verbal diarrhea on the screen.
posted by corb at 5:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [41 favorites]


I'm sitting in Vesuvio's in North Beach here in San Francisco. A manhattan before me. I'm going to a book reading at City Lights with Ngugi Wa Thiong'o. I know who I am voting for. The idea of watching this "debate" makes me feel like my cynicism about politics will implode upon itself. Part of me wants to watch hoping that you know who will self destruct in a blaze of flies. But part of me is afraid that something else will happen. I'll read the thread tomorrow. My best wishes to you who choose to watch...
posted by njohnson23 at 5:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm watching at Stonewall Inn and it's jam-packed. We're here, we're queer, we're about to get fucked up. Look for me on the background of a Full Frontal episode later!
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [58 favorites]


When the debate infuriates you tonight, just watch this. Watch it over, and over again. (Dee Gordon, of the Florida Marlins, who lost their pitcher yesterday in a boating accident, hit a home run on the Marlin's first at bat tonight)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]




Yay, corb got unlost! Welcome back!
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


My debate survival kit: Russell's Reserve bourbon, yo.
posted by Gelatin at 5:48 PM on September 26, 2016


This clip of cursing reporters (?) pushing their way into the debate is going viral. Stay safe out there folks!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Looks like Trump updated his Positions page before the debate (new ones on left, old screengrabs on right & here: (link)"

Somebody get that news to Clinton...
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:48 PM on September 26, 2016


I'm a little concerned that expectations for Trump are so low that if he manages to put together more than one complete sentence over the course of the evening, everyone will be hailing it as a major victory.
posted by sfenders at 5:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"...as Americans running to decide whether Donald Trump is presidential..."

BRB gotta send my kid upstairs so he doesn't overhear some dude talking about his dick or using hate speech.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]




Reminder to narrate action as much as possible once it starts for those of us on boats/in space/doing night-night with toddlers. Ty how is everyone.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Republican social media has been BLOWING UP with the Cruz endorsement

As in "how dare that unprincipled rat" or "thank Ford our boy has come home! Onward with Trump!"?
posted by Gelatin at 5:50 PM on September 26, 2016


I dream on a debate where the expected moderator is missing - when the candidates walk out, it's Jon Stewart, Samantha Bee, Larry Wilmore, and John Oliver.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


My facebook feed has been miraculously politics free for the last year, and now... it's suddenly not. Dammit.
posted by Torosaurus at 5:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


There's a bar at the primary debates? Really? (via MSNBC)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hopefully people are calling Cruz out for the complete lack of principle (and spine) evident in his about face.
posted by vuron at 5:51 PM on September 26, 2016


Lol I'm literally panic crying in the car on the way to work right now snd I'm stupid happy y'all're here with me
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


So: Why Hofstra? They were a 2012 site, too. Is there something special about Hofstra that makes it ideal for hosting high profile debates? It's not a very well known school.
posted by indubitable at 5:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Donald Trump as an option in the presidential election is about one step removed from whatshisname Camacho from Idiocracy running. So congrats on living up to my expectations America!
posted by some loser at 5:52 PM on September 26, 2016


Okay here is how I'm doing the debate.

I'm in my bed all nestled under the covers.
I just started Season 1 Episode 1 of True Blood.
I have a pot (yes a pot) of hot chocolate.
I have this thread open.
I have a link set up for a stream but I can't handle these things live so it's only there in case I read something here that just has to be seen.

Thank you for the people watching and posting for those of us who just can't do it.
posted by Jalliah at 5:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


indubitable, I believe Hofstra has been hosting since the 80s.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:53 PM on September 26, 2016


7,500 out of 11,000 Hofstra students present at the debate. That's some impressive investment.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


LETS DO THIS
posted by chaoticgood at 5:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I am claiming hazard pay for this viewing since the network seems to be solidly on FOX News for this broadcast.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lol I'm literally panic crying in the car on the way to work right now

You are a passenger? say yes please! otherwise please put your phone down?
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'll have the debate on the main screen and the Saints game on my laptop and it'll be a toss-up which one I'm more stoically resigned about
posted by savetheclocktower at 5:54 PM on September 26, 2016




Hofstra has done it before, as you say, and were able to fill in on 10 weeks' notice.
posted by Shmuel510 at 5:54 PM on September 26, 2016


I'm doing this sober. This thread may very well chronicle my descent into madness.
posted by mochapickle at 5:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I have assumed Standard Election Year Posture, which is not unlike Gollum hunching over and hissing at everything that moves, precious.
posted by Hermione Granger at 5:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


As in "how dare that unprincipled rat" or "thank Ford our boy has come home! Onward with Trump!"?

1/3 former Cruz people talking about how they shouldn't have put their faith in men and doubling down on #NeverTrump, 1/3 Cruz people saying if Cruz is endorsing then they will vote Trump, 1/3 knives out for self serving. If I get through other thread and they haven't been posted, I'll serve you guys up some hilarity.
posted by corb at 5:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


I'm enjoying watching the housekeeping announcements on CSPAN.
posted by joedan at 5:55 PM on September 26, 2016


So: Why Hofstra?

On MSNBC they said a school in Ohio was scheduled for this debate but dropped out. Hofstra had done the last two and had the infrastructure, plus deep pocketed donors to fund it, so volunteered.
posted by bluecore at 5:55 PM on September 26, 2016


Guilani is looking particularly ghoulish tonight.
posted by chaoticgood at 5:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Im eating dinner.

I feel like I'm at the Restaurant at the End of America.
posted by cacofonie at 5:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


There's a lot of contrast in how Bill Clinton came in shaking everyone's hands while Melania Trump appeared not even to make eye contact.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wayne State pulled out due to concerns about the money required to ensure adequate security.
posted by carmicha at 5:56 PM on September 26, 2016


Somebody should have put a whoopie cushion under Holt's seat
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, both candidates have huge organizations in NY
posted by rosswald at 5:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


You and me both, mochapickle. But though we go into the valley without righteous armor, we shall have each other, and we shall emerge from the tentacles intact. Verily.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


i haven't been excited, depressed, panicked, or inspired all election. 5 minutes of cnn and I am desperately regretting my decision to give up smoking 12 MONTHS AGO.
posted by Glibpaxman at 5:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Took an anxiety rebuild break from this slow motion nightmare election. Will go back and catch up on the threads i missed one day, promise. For now, this projector, this growler of beer and I would like to join you for thos debate, Metafilter. Hello again everyone, hope you've been well.
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Shit I'm really nervous. Good luck everyone, Trump please just be yourself.
posted by Tarumba at 5:57 PM on September 26, 2016


Wow, sounds they're actually going to act like adults. (Massive) Advantage for Hillary.

We'll see how long that lasts.
posted by porpoise at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Watching at a Somerville for Hillary event. Definitely a packed house.
posted by peacheater at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


What an eerie quiet!
posted by Evstar at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016


Donald Trump as an option in the presidential election is about one step removed from whatshisname Camacho from Idiocracy running. So congrats on living up to my expectations America!

Except that Camacho was a good president.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Fingers crossed that this is Trumps Nixon moment.
posted by valkane at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm excited about how everyone in the nation will agree tomorrow on the outcome of this debate
posted by beerperson at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


If there's really a lack of audience response, as requested by the moderator (watching the prelims on CSPAN), that may throw a class clown like Trump. A top student like Hillary won't need the instant feedback.
posted by zennie at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


The writing on the panels in the background look vaguely like something on the opening for QI. If only Stephen Fry were moderating.
posted by Death and Gravity at 5:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


For those of us not watching it, what are the instructions/etc they're giving?
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:59 PM on September 26, 2016


Does anyone know who the couple is that Bill is sitting next to?
posted by peeedro at 5:59 PM on September 26, 2016


Every time you say that, SecretAgentSockpuppet, the tentacles get ten feet longer.

These are some amazing tentacles, the best. Absolute best tentatcles.

To keep this substantive and contribute to future readers, Lester Holt's mike is live, possibly inadvertently, so we're enjoying him clearing his throat and talking to his producers.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lester Holt to nation on the CSPAN feed: "You're broken up. You're broken up."
posted by Rykey at 5:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I have a bottle full of tequila, a bag full of ice, and three margarita mixers. It's my sanity insulator.
posted by corb at 6:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


This whole election has made me quite uncomfortable.
posted by mazola at 6:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Looks like Lester's earpiece is giving him grief. They've cut his audio. Oh, its back!
posted by valkane at 6:00 PM on September 26, 2016


Lobstermitten: mostly they've asked the audience to not react audibly, so as to prevent delays.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:00 PM on September 26, 2016


C-SPAN streaming for the WIN!

##### DEBATE ON #####
posted by PROD_TPSL at 6:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Rules: no audience participation, debate is 6 segments of 15 mins apiece, with a question beginning each segment, 2 mins for candidate to answer, 2 mins for other to respond, then 11 minutes of supposed actual debate between the two.
posted by bologna on wry at 6:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Honestly, I'm glad CSPAN exists for it's actual purpose but I'm also always delighted by these raw feed bits of downtime that other channels would cut away from.

Lester Holt just had his earpiece replaced live on the air.
posted by cortex at 6:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Conversation at Best Bar In The World, between me and the people at the next table, and the TV which is - amazingly - showing Fox:

FOX NEWS HEAD: So what Hilary has to do is prove why we should vote for her!

Silence

PEOPLE AT NEXT TABLE: ....Do you know if other networks are showing this?

ME: no, they all are.

PEOPLE AT NEXT TABLE: ...So why are we watching Fox?

ME: Beats the shit outta me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [36 favorites]


WayneWright State
Former in Detroit; latter in Dayton.
 
posted by Herodios at 6:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah the time honored tradition of getting fucked up and hate-watching the US presidential debates.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


I agree, the awkward silence and behind-the-scenes-ness of CSPAN is fantastic.
posted by bologna on wry at 6:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'll be watching on PBS, not sure I can handle the cspan splitscreen.
posted by vrakatar at 6:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Empress: see if you can bribe the bartender with the promise of not throwing a glass through the television if he changes the channel.
posted by corb at 6:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Posted this in chat, but I checked in with my community coordinator and he confirmed Sean Astin is coming to the phonebank at our HQ tomorrow night!
posted by sara is disenchanted at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


One minute warning from Lester.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2016


You know, the same way my paranoid self was worrying that Obama would be assassinated , now with everything going on I have been a little worried about a terrorist attack on an event like this, domestic or international.
posted by Tarumba at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2016


The tension is palpable.
posted by valkane at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2016


T minus ten

We've gone for main engine start
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2016


boyfriend is texting me every other minute about this...this is why I didn't want to watch with him.
posted by zutalors! at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2016


I actually have butterflies. Why do I have butterflies?

I'm probably more nervous than Clinton is.
posted by Deathalicious at 6:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


C-SPAN streaming for the WIN!

I'm trying to watch on C-Span (via SlingTV), but there's both a stock ticker at the bottom of the screen and a scrolling headline feed on the right. ADD FAIL. What's the most painless way to watch?
posted by mudpuppie at 6:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fingers crossed that this is Trumps Nixon moment.

Hopefully the one where Nixon lost...
posted by Sangermaine at 6:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


C-SPAN: https://www.c-span.org/2016presidentialDebates/
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2016


Ladies and gentlemen, you coulda been anywhere in the world tonight, but you’re here with us in New York City. Are you ready for a cabinet meeting trainwreck?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [44 favorites]


Flop sweat, Sangermaine, I'm hoping for flop sweat.
posted by valkane at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


PBS YouTube live stream is good so far
posted by thefoxgod at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I felt a terrible chill go down my spine when Holt spoke Trump's name. After all this time, it's still so profoundly surreal and absurd to hear him announced as a candidate.
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


He's wearing the blue power tie.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"There are two more Presidential debates scheduled" says Lester, so don't blame him if you're unhappy with his performance.
posted by zachlipton at 6:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump looks nervous to me already. He delayed his walk to the stage and didn't even make it half way across. It looked like he was trying to stay as close to his podium as possible to me. Very stiff during the handshake too.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't tell if this is one of the seven seals breaking or something Alan Moore wrote about.
posted by Sphinx at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


My debate strategy: I'm going to play Dishonored and check in in this thread when I mess up my ghost run and have to reload. I figure it will be good practice if I need to navigate through a corrupt, decaying hellscape.
posted by bibliowench at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Did they dress in the opposite party's colors on purpose?
posted by Sangermaine at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


DEBATE BEGINS
posted by glonous keming at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


TV shot just debunked the podium idiocy that was floating around the net all day. She has no riser to stand on. Her podium is 1 foot shorter than his.
posted by zarq at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


RED AS THE EYES OF MARS
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


(I'm not seeing any ad stuff or scrolls on the C-SPAN page, but then I have uBlock on...)
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016


My 12yr old son explained to me that each candidate has to wear something of the other party? What? I am not the born-american, what do I know?
posted by carmina at 6:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


FUCK YEAH INFRASTRUCTURE
posted by tonycpsu at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


SHE IS SO GOOD!
posted by valkane at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy christ...I am clenching, I am clenching, I am so uptight.....
posted by but no cigar at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2016


We are not going to make this debate about appearance but holy shit Clinton is wearing a superhero costume.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 6:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's the end of the first quarter, and the Saints and the Falcons are tied 7 - 7.
posted by yhbc at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Did they dress in the opposite party's colors on purpose?

I would guess that HRC knew the background would be blue, so went with something that would pop on the screen. This ain't her first rodeo.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Mod note: Folks again please, the short OMG REACTION stuff goes to chat, the actual people-can-follow-along comments in here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


aaaaaaaaaaa I can't manage both this thread and Chat... I guess I'll stay here because Chat is acting really flaky in my browser.

Trump is trying so hard to look thoughtful and intelligent but still fierce and combative.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016


Clinton crossed to Trump's area of the stage to shake his hand. A display of territorial dominance?
posted by homunculus at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


My husband just bailed on me and is hiding in bed watching Narcos on his iPad. Metafilter, it is dangerous to go alone! I feel legitimately sick to my stomach.
posted by lydhre at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


My 12yr old son explained to me that each candidate has to wear something of the other party? What? I am not the born-american, what do I know?

He's just messing with you
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


RED AS THE BLOOD OF HER ENEMIES
posted by numaner at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Oh, is he going for Sad, Morose Trump tonight?
posted by Panjandrum at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Donald and I... are on the stage tonight. Donald, it's good to be with you."

(Clearly stifling laughter at the whole idea.)
posted by Rangi at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Okay - crowd in Best Bar applauded after Hillary's comments, and laughed when Trump said that "our jobs are fleeing to Mexico...." I feel better about the crowd at Best Bar.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Ford isn't leaving, asshat.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump jumps immediately into how bad everything is, on the opening jobs question. Zero to Mexico in literally five seconds.
posted by cortex at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hillary's expression says what she's hearing is exactly what she expected from Trump.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


As a high-sensation-seeker, I'm watching this sober.
posted by iffthen at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump seems much more nervous than I've seen him before. Perhaps that's his "serious face" manner? Clinton is her normal unrattleable self.
posted by Justinian at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's doing at least mild stream-of-consciousness
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary opened strong, clear policy positions, hoped to earn our vote. Well done. Donald, is word salad.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


First question and DT's just repeating the same garbage that he spews on the campaign trail. Tired and sad!
posted by chaoticgood at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016


So we're looking at sober, quiet Trump.
posted by zarq at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump is sounding...sane. Is this his strategy this time, to rein in the explicit craziness and present himself as just a reasonable alternative?
posted by Sangermaine at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's talking about that Mexican plant builder already
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Please Hillary, call Trump on the moving of jobs overseas....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


First exchange is already hope vs. fear
posted by craven_morhead at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Future generations will look at transcripts of the things Donald Trump has said and wonder how we failed to recognize his word salad as a sign of brain injury or mental illness.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


He's been coached, he's trying.
posted by vrakatar at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's pushing the negative approach already. Doesn't this only pander to his base?
posted by arcticseal at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016


Fuck power ties, she's power suit
posted by erisfree at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm surprised that Trump has one substantive answer. It isn't good, but it had some substance.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He plans to reduce the corporate tax rate from 35 to 15%.
posted by winna at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016


Right, he's clearly trying to come off as sane and sober. But the monotone droning is not a good look for him.
posted by Justinian at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump seems to have a stiff neck or something, he isn't able to completely turn his head left without turning his upper body. Is that normal for him or is it something else?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's doing his stump speech in a very energy way. China...Mexico is the 8th wonder of the world...carrier air conditioning...my plan I'll be reducing taxes...will be a job creator.

Ugh If you had Voodoo economics on your bingo card you can cross that off.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Think about this: 100 million are watching. 100 billion human beings have ever been born upon this earth. So of all the human beings who have ever lived, one in one thousand are watching, apprehensive.
posted by hleehowon at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Trump sounds like an old Borscht Belt comic who can't even bother to pretend his act doesn't bore him to tears.
posted by EarBucket at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trumped up trickle down!
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oh god she tried a zinger
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"We need to have a tax system that rewards work and not financial transactions." Is Hillary's rebuttal.
posted by winna at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016


Prop bet: how many bars of Xanax did Trump pop an hour ago?
2 bars +120
3 bars +100
4 brs -110
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016


Hahhahaha, did he just say his cutting taxes plan will be the 'biggest job creator since Ronald Reagan'? Hahaha.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary made a dad joke, DRINK.
posted by maryr at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


The effective corporate tax is far below 35% though.
posted by zachlipton at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


(While red and blue have come to mean GOP and Democrats in recent years, that's a label of convenience, not anything official.)

The color coding we're familiar with today didn't stick until the iconic (and extremely lengthy) election of 2000, when The New York Times and USA Today published their first full-color election maps. The Times spread used red for Republicans because "red begins with r, Republican begins with r," said the senior graphics editor Archie Tse, "it was a more natural association." The election, which didn't end until mid-December, firmly established Democrats as the blue party and Republicans as the red — denotations which will likely hold fast for some time to come.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump will bring us "Trumped up trickle down economics". Ha.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not to feed a conspiracy, but it sounds like one candidate has a cold. Constantly inhaling through their nose, like if one had a runny nose.

And it's Trump.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


As a high-sensation-seeker, I'm watching this sober.

You are braver than I...

I'm rocking a true cocktail style margarita (1:1:3 triple sec, fresh lime juice, tequila), which has stolen the job from a hard working American margarita
posted by Panjandrum at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Oooh damn, "he started with 14 mil from his father"
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]



Future generations will look at transcripts of the things Donald Trump has said and wonder how we failed to recognize his word salad as a sign of brain injury or mental illness.


CF George W Bush
posted by asockpuppet at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


She made the political personal, nice.
posted by vrakatar at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


chaoticgood: "First question and DT's just repeating the same garbage that he spews on the campaign trail. Tired and sad!"

His two minute bits were always going to be these prepared statements.
posted by Mitheral at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump on jobs: Companies keep leaving the US; we're doing horrible; going to Mexico, going to China, "we cannot let it happen" - his plan: reduce taxes for companies from 35% to 15%. Renegotiate all trade deals.

Clinton's rebuttal: Need a tax system that rewards work, not just money movements. His plan is "trumped-up trickle down." [real quote]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump sounds like an old Borscht Belt comic who can't even bother to pretend his act doesn't bore him to tears.

"Um, yeah, and trade."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016


Donald Trump seems to have a stiff neck or something, he isn't able to completely turn his head left without turning his upper body. Is that normal for him or is it something else?

The lizard wearing his skin doesn't like highly airconditioned rooms.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm on the Bloomberg feed, but where is the fact checking? Is it supposed to be on the inline Twitter feed?
posted by bonje at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


His answer spoke right to people in small blue collar towns with vacant warehouses and shopfronts. Problem is, it's corporate America that steals those jobs, not Mexico or China. It's easier to blame them, though, and I think he scored on that one. :)
posted by mudpuppie at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's talking about that Mexican plant builder already

How many times are we going to hear about him in the next 90 minutes?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016


I'm not sure why you'd mention that the United States has 5% of the world's population - unless that's a trap for Trump.
posted by koeselitz at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2016


He's trying so hard to hold it all together. He looks like he's struggling.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is turning his whole body to look at things like he's wearing Michael Keaton's Batman costume.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trumped up politics!
14 million from his father!
"He really believes the more you help wealthy people, the better off you'll be."
Heck yeah, Hillary!
posted by areaperson at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I can haz a very small loan?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


If Clinton is on her game she should absolute hammer him on the "very small loan" thing. He teed it up for her. It's just hanging over the plate.
posted by Justinian at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is extremely agitated because Hillary swiped at his dad giving him money.
posted by winna at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump pulling out the "my father gave me a small loan" of a million bucks thing against Hillary's "my dad had a squeegee" is going to be a thing, right? Please?
posted by zachlipton at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump is sniffing a lot. I wonder how his health is.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Woah he is looking a little like a wimp there
posted by Tarumba at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Great angle of attack from Hillary there re: fathers' experiences in business.
posted by Panthalassa at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton mentioned Trump getting millions from his dad. He fell for the bait, hard.
posted by Yowser at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


is he sniffling? wtf?
posted by Glibpaxman at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


What's with the sniffing sound every time he inhales. He that nervous?
posted by chris24 at 6:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wow, it didn't take much to bait him. Millions of dollars is apparently a very small loan.
posted by joedan at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Argh. Hillary should not go for the cute shots on Trump. It sounds so fake.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016


He's unravelling a bit.
posted by vrakatar at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


God, he's just gonna come off as weird in that silent room. He's got no audience to feed off of.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wow, he's off his game.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He is sniffing a lot, I wonder if he has a cold?

Back to Mexico, his arch-nemesis.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump interrupting the moderator.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump took the bait on the size of his silver spoon.
posted by klarck at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


'I want you to be very happy'? The fuck was that?
posted by palindromic at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I am on a flight to Seattle. In a middle seat. The guy in the aisle seat is watching this.

I have no alcohol.

Pity me.
posted by ocschwar at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [51 favorites]


Trump's father gave him a small amount?! And he built it into billions?!

Oh, Madam Secretary, call him on that!

(That and Mexico.)
posted by Gelatin at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016


He looks and sounds sick.
posted by zarq at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016


Is the donald coked up?
posted by valkane at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


lots of sniffing. how much blow do you think he did backstage?
posted by entropicamericana at 6:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [34 favorites]


"back to the question."
No Lauering the bar, yet.
posted by mhz at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hey, Donald, my allergies are bad, too. I use a saline spray.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


What's with the sniffing sound every time he inhales. He that nervous?

The lizard wearing his skin doesn't like airconditioned rooms.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Clinton's response barely touched on what Trump said about outsourcing, it sounded canned.
posted by Flashman at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I created a movement in the bathroom this morning. Beat that, Donald.
posted by homunculus at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Somebody has cocaine nose
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


Bloomberg's fact-checking was overhyped, I gather; supposedly it'll be in a scroll at the bottom, but it's not going to be instantaneous. Checking takes some time.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016


China's the best ever at what they are doing to us.

Back to the question though. Ow!
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016


Did someone give Trump a key bump before he went on? So much SNIFFING, such loud pressured talking.
posted by little mouth at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


She freaking went for his "dad gave him a loan bit" and he took the bait. She totally baited him. Wow.

Also, I was wondering if he was going to call her "Secretary Clinton".

He's sucking up to her.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He looks and sounds sick.

You're right... he sounds congested. Maybe he's ill? That would be ironic.
posted by Justinian at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not to humanize the guy, but he's on the cat drugs. I'd recognize that Flonase sniff anywhere.
posted by Sphinx at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016


Lester: How do you bring back the jobs?

Trump: We never let them..sniff...leave..sniff
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am on a flight to Seattle. In a middle seat. The guy in the aisle seat is watching this.

I have no alcohol.


They give away eye masks right? That's the only way.
posted by zutalors! at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow, Holt is actually asking for specifics. "Back to the question...how do you bring the jobs back?"

Trump going straight to protectionism.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


I was close to vomiting until Holt said, "Okay, but back to the question," and then Trump started to crackle
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


sniffgate. I wonder if Trump will pass out.
posted by defenestration at 6:15 PM on September 26, 2016


He just completely refuses to get specific. Meanwhile, Hillary smiles.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton has obviously been coached not to sigh.

Even when Trump proposes Hawley-Smoot 2.
posted by Gelatin at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


But Hillary can't just be reasonable and good on policy. That's already her strength. She needs to eviscerate Trump. Emasculate him. She needs a staggering blow.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"The first thing is you don't let the companies leave."

He's advocating drastic tariffs to forestall exit by companies but I doubt how many people watching understand how tariffs work so it's going to sail over their heads, never mind how it wouldn't work.
posted by winna at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, he couldn't even hold it together for fifteen minutes. She's completely serene now - she knows she has him.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [44 favorites]


Clinton is dropping so many facts and numbers; I love it.
posted by melissasaurus at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


So he said he created a movement which no, you created a wave of lunacy with no clear goals except for we hate brown people
posted by Tarumba at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's called BUSINESS?!
posted by joedan at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016


Are all of the networks on split screen? Because they all need to be.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can't listen to this. Trump just doesn't end his sentences. I mean, they're barely syntactical enough to count as sentences, but that just makes it worse.
posted by Rangi at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump going after all those Mexican-made cookies we all hate

It's an allusion to Oreo, which has been a subject of disdain in his stump speeches.
posted by palindromic at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy fuck, Hillary smashing this response talking about the crisis in the economy 8 years ago arising from neoliberal economic policies.
posted by Panthalassa at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Donald rooted for the housing crisis!
That's called business!!
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


From Josh Marshall's liveblog:

9:05 PM: It is beyond imagining that this is happening.


That's about where I am. Is this real life?
posted by Justinian at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


"That's called business, by the way."

Classy interruption, Trump.
posted by dazed_one at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


His response to hoping for and making money off other people misery?

"That's called business."
posted by chris24 at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


A HOAX PERPETUATED BY THE CHINESE
posted by palindromic at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is gonna be an interesting hour and a half. Trump seems mildly ill - Nixon moment? But Hillary just showed an Al Gore-like condescending smirk. Curiouser and curiouser.
posted by iffthen at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016


Wow he's out of his league tonight. His steam should be thinking about the next debate.
posted by vrakatar at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dude is already coming apart
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Her answer needs to be "We don't want to make air-conditioners. We don't want to make today's small cars. We want to make the next-generation of air-conditions. We want to make the future."
posted by maryr at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nice hit quoting Trump for wanting the housing bubble to burst.

/I can't keep up. Signing out until after the debate.
posted by porpoise at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jeez, HE IS SO EASY TO BAIT
posted by triggerfinger at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


She's not letting him interrupt! YES!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Wow, he is going to melt down on camera. Kudos to those who had faith.
posted by gerryblog at 6:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Did Trump mock Rubio for drink so much water all the time? Is this another case of Trump mocking people for what are his own failures?
posted by Panjandrum at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]




As a canadian who gets so very angry at you americans sometimes (you know, like a little sibling does) i can't bear to even watch. So i came here instead. I'm scared.
posted by cgg at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


He can't shut up about making money on the housing crisis, can he?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Everyone at Best Bar in the World is talking about the sniffling.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump keeps looking for his cutman [fake].
posted by drezdn at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought Hillary was supposed to pivot back to the centre in the debates. Not really seeing a lot of that right now.
posted by Panthalassa at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


So he lasted about 30 seconds with the reasonably-sane monotone before his voice went up and the hand gestures started. Well done, sir.
posted by Rykey at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Luckily, he believes in all forms of energy.
posted by palindromic at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary is talking about infrastructure being a lot of jobs to develop green energy.
posted by winna at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He believes in energy.
posted by valkane at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016


But Hillary can't just be reasonable and good on policy. That's already her strength. She needs to eviscerate Trump. Emasculate him. She needs a staggering blow.

He's responding to every jab already and we're not even 20 minutes in. I predict she's going to wear him down and he's going to lose his shit at some point before this is done.
posted by joedan at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


That half-cap-doff to Solyndra will really play to the swing voters; they will totally get what you were saying, Donald
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


His interruption to her assertion that he was rooting for the housing crisis was "that's business!".

SURELY THIS
posted by lydhre at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hasn't red kind of been a traditional color of female politicians? I know that Senator Mikulski started wearing it to stand out from all of the dark (male) suits when Congress assembled when she first was elected to the Senate (and maybe before then).

(Extra trivia: Mikulski was the first woman to wear a pantsuit on the Senate floor in 1993--the rule used to be that women had to wear skirts/dresses!)
posted by TwoStride at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Someone with video editing software, please memeify Trump's face while listening to Hillary into Donald Trump Watches Things.
posted by EarBucket at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump needs his bro crowd to feed. This silent crowd is totally stifling him
posted by Tarumba at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think he's sick. He sounds congested and raspy and keeps sniffling.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did he just pull All Lives Matter on clean energy?
posted by ckape at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016


Oh my god, Donald Trump spent way too much time watching America's Next Top model. Looks like he's trying to cycle between a model pout and then a "smize" and then a serious face.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


The mic is picking up Trump's breath intakes from a foot away, but not Hillary's breathing from a few inches. Reinforces the image that he's agitated and she's calm.
posted by zennie at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Someone make a gif of the glorious eyebrow raise Hillary just deployed at Donald's 'you can't do that' in reference to her economic plan because it's great.
posted by winna at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


i dont think most of america is seeing this and thinking that Donald is coming unraveled, and that kind of thinking among Clinton voters is making me p wary, not gonna lie
posted by likeatoaster at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


She just "well actually'd" him.
posted by zachlipton at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


Trump's vague reference to solar panels wpuld be picked up by the Fox News crowd, but I wonder if most people knowwhat the hell he's talking about.

Or if he does.
posted by Gelatin at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reminder: 30 years ago, Clinton was First Lady of Arkansas and held no public office.
posted by mbrubeck at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


Holy cow, I'm loving how calm and focused Clinton is. It makes Trump's unraveling, as he inserts his interrupting nonsense, all the more lurid. She's owning these debates!
posted by but no cigar at 6:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm watching the Bloomberg twitter and there's no fact-checking in the video, and there's no way I'm keeping that up with the Twitter stream
posted by achrise at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


@TheLindyWest "Donald Trump cheered when you lost your house."
posted by drezdn at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


HAHA THAT HILLARY SMIRK <3
posted by erisfree at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Plus he just flipped flopped about climate change. His crowd won't like this.
posted by Tarumba at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"All you have to do is look at Michigan, and Ohio… and other states I'm unable to win the presidency without."
posted by Deathalicious at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He believes in energy.

The kind Bavarian marching powder gives you, aparrently. He should have words with that doctor.
posted by Artw at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"You've been doing this for 30 years!" Because she's been in an office for all that time?
posted by numaner at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's doing such a great job of talking over him while he gets all shouty.

Trump may be doing lines of coke backstage, but Hillary is knocking back the bubbly.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


My daughter is chortling at Hillary "Well, actually"ing Trump.
posted by corb at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


I WANT A 'WELL ACTUALLY' T SHIRT!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary: "...if we're actually going to look at the facts."

Love.
posted by mochapickle at 6:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


She well actually'd Trump!
posted by zutalors! at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really think he feeds on the audience's response and he struggles without it. Couple of times now he delivered a line that would have been greeted with a huge cheer at one of his brownshirt rallies and seemed discomfited that response is minimal.

Also I don't know if this is the case on every stream/channel/network but on C-SPAN at least, Donald's mike is either well balanced or dialed down a bit, far enough that Clinton is still easily audible over his interruptions. Glad to see that.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


I do think bringing in Bill's presidency was a bit of a misstep. Let's him go after NAFTA and Bill's presidency.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Don't let him talk Hil!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's letting him hit her on NAFTA. This is bad. It doesn't matter whether he's right or not, it lets Trump harp on his standard talking points
posted by Sangermaine at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I need a clip of the split screen with a Face Swap. Someone please make it happen
posted by clorox at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


She is doing great but he's doing ok on the "I'm a business guy" front.
posted by zutalors! at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016


If anyone wonders what it's like to be a woman in a meeting getting talked over - this is what it is like.
posted by winna at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [106 favorites]


Agreed, tonycpsu
posted by Rykey at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016


Dude, Lester Holt, what are you doing
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


'Donald, I know you live in your own reality'
posted by palindromic at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [49 favorites]


coming out against solar is...who does that appeal to?

The kind of people whose primary position is HURF DURF GOVERNMENT
posted by Panjandrum at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh man I understand why she's trying not to laugh but this is not a good look for Clinton.
posted by corb at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


What's this about Clinton appointing a special prosecutor? She's not going to get a chance to elaborate with Trump interrupting about "the worst trade deal ever", but I'm curious about the one serious plan here.
posted by Rangi at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hahahahahahaha. Donald, you live in your own reality....
posted by PorcineWithMe at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I know you live in your own reality"
Oh God, I hope he just explodes.
posted by mhz at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Her biggest challenge for this is not to grin so much that it sets off the "she has too much ego" reactions. But wow, it's glorious to see her relaxed and smiling. And I am so looking forward to Trump growing more flustered as this goes on, because we're about 15 minutes in and he's already jumpy.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


...and the wheels just came off.
posted by Sphinx at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


20 minutes is how long Donald Trump can go before unraveling. Sad!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


LAUGHTER FROM THE AUDIENCE!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Donald, I know you live in your own reality."
posted by lkc at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


I just went to my fridge and saw Lester Holt on a milk carton.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [52 favorites]


'Donald I know you live in your own reality'

The whole crowd gasped.
posted by winna at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Shouldn't Holt be preventing Trump from talking over Clinton?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


She is destroying him with facts and numbers, he is responding with with 'but everything is terrible'.

This is going to be epic.
posted by dazed_one at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Donald, I know you live in your own reality, but those are not the facts."
posted by mochapickle at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


*deep snort*

"--NOT"
posted by acidic at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Um, Trump is starting to lose it. Wake up, moderator.
posted by homunculus at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"In fact I've written a book about it..."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I tuned in late, are there moderators?
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


The audience promised to be silent, but laughed at her"yu live in your own reality" comment.
posted by Gelatin at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oof. He's winning this. He's got her against the ropes, making cracks every moment. Good thing I have gin, but I'm not optimistic.
posted by koeselitz at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton: "Well, Donald, I know you live in your own reality, but..."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm sorry, is there a moderator or just a talking placard with questions loaded onto it?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary is doing a good job of pushing past his interruptions, but I still feel like Lester Holt should be actually, you know, moderating.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Why doesn't the moderator tell Trump to stop interrupting?
posted by Tarumba at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


she's better here than on the stump.
posted by klarck at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Getting baited into bickering with Trump all debate is not going to help Clinton's image, I don't think
posted by likeatoaster at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jesus, I have no idea how this dynamic is playing, but it's definitely going to do something to this race. He's fucking hectoring her like he's a drunkard arguing about football at the dive bar.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


I love Clinton's burn "you can pick up (my book) at a bookstore or at an airport near you" - Trump clearly never would be in a bookstore.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


oh THAT'S why they wrote that dumb book lmao
posted by acidic at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He is so shouty. Hill is doing a great job at not being bullied, and he is full on bully mode.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why the hell isn't Holt stopping Trump from interrupting?????
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


i wish they would space the heads at a more natural distance. it looks like two folks are shouting at each other shoulder to shoulder, while looking off into space.
posted by rebent at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's hard as a woman because you're told "smile" then when you do because a dude is yelling at you you're called an uppity know it all bitch.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [111 favorites]


He's been everywhere, man.
posted by vrakatar at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016


Lester must be there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016


Wow his paucity of adjectives is really showing hard.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wonder if she was coached to picture him naked except for a (soiled?) diaper, given the way she's handling his tantrums.
posted by uosuaq at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Her smile is adorbs.
posted by palindromic at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He is so fucking erratic.
posted by defenestration at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


If Muhammad Ali was the king of the rope-a-dope, Hillary Clinton is the queen.
posted by hleehowon at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


"regulations." He obviously knows it's a buzzword without meaning.

Also "bigly."
posted by mhz at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016


Big league!
posted by GrammarMoses at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


'That can't be left to stand'

Loving her poise here.
posted by palindromic at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I tuned in late, are there moderators?

There's a cardboard cutout of Lester Holt
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]



Why doesn't the moderator tell Trump to stop interrupting?


Why bother? He's not helping himself with the interruptions, he just sounds defensive and rambling.
posted by Rangi at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Candy Crowley wouldn't be taking this shit
posted by asockpuppet at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


BIGLY! Who's got that on their bingo cards?
posted by numaner at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Listening to this on public radio is giving me heart palpitations.
posted by gucci mane at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Trump say, "You are going to approve the biggest tax CUTS in history" until correcting himself?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


This isn't starting well for Clinton. She's talking facts but she's letting him hammer her on his stupid bullshit. He's racking up soundbites.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary said that she has a fact checker real time on her website during the debate.

They are so clever
posted by winna at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm missing me some Gwen Ifill. She wouldn't take this shit.
posted by Sphinx at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


Lester, please rein things in.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Holy shit, real time fact-checking plug.
posted by defenestration at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oooh! Trump: "You are going to regulate these businesses out of existence" - he's not even aware that he's talking in future tense. He spent two paragraphs talking about "you are going to do [x] to taxes]" and didn't notice that he's talking as if she's already won.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


You can't get the facts here, but you can get them at my website ;-)

Smart as hell move.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mine, too!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016


Donald Trump is on tilt.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump: "I'm going to cut taxes..." Big league? Bigly?

Hard to tell. Either is possible.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Toddler update: while I was reading this thread she removed her own diaper and was lying in wait like a snake at the other end of her bed. Not sure what that augurs besides general sturm und drang.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


General MacAuthur?
posted by vrakatar at 6:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I bought "Stronger Together", and agree with reviewers that it's dry and way overwritten, but being able to call back to it during a debate like this makes it all worth it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lester is absolutely impossible as a moderator.
posted by Deathalicious at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's got to quit being baited.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


FACT CHECKS AT HILLARYCLINTON.COM HOLY SHIT
posted by explosion at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's fucking melting down. What the shit.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lester should just quit right now. Walk off the stage, quit NBC, move to Easter Island or something.
posted by zachlipton at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Lester, turn off their microphones.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay, I've said this a lot in the last 20 years or so but I've never meant it as much as I do right now:

SHUT THE FUCK UP, DONNIE! YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [76 favorites]


Lester Holt is useless.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh gosh now they just sound like kids having a fight in the back seat of a car.
posted by Deathalicious at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Both candidates a bit shaken. I don't think Donald getting louder is good for Hillary. Trump more convincing when he's interjecting; Hillary less convincing when she's responding to his interjections. I think, tactically, she should keep this to the series-of-monologues format that was happening before the temperature began to rose, because you can really see when a candidate is scant on the detail there.
posted by Panthalassa at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald just accused her of having fought ISIS her entire adult life.
posted by winna at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]


"You're telling the enemy everything you wanna do."

...What?
posted by Rangi at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016


Hillary has been fighting ISIS *HER ENTIRE ADULT LIFE*!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Shirt off his mike!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016


Ahh and here is the shit show I expected.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Okay, seriously, do we even have a moderator???
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump keeps using Holt's name, which is a standard con man move - 'Lester, you look like a smart guy, a guy who knows a deal when he sees one...'
posted by palindromic at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


From Clinton's website on the LiterallyTrump page:
Donald Trump says he has “a very good brain” and has “said a lot of things.” At least one of those is true.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


One hour to go...
posted by uosuaq at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's really coming unglued.
posted by octothorpe at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


WHY do moderators not yet have the ability to turn off the microphones when a person's time is over????
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


His response to the website was utterly, utterly frothing and incoherent. She got him. Somehow she got a blow in to his ego. He's raising his voice and shouting again.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Holy shit this is insane.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Holt giving free rein is the worst thing that could happen to Trump.
posted by klarck at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wow his paucity of adjectives is really showing hard.

It's beautiful to watch, just beautiful.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I like her poise.

He's being vague and belligerent, and has very little in the way of concrete facts.

She's got this.
posted by zarq at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I am not watching. I did hear laughter and "wow, it's a hot mess" from the other room.
posted by holgate at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm waiting for Hillary to point out that Trump's merchandise is all made in China.
posted by TwoStride at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I guess Bloomber's not fact checking after all.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016


I'm sorry, but has tax breaks on the wealthy ever yielded more jobs and money for the middle class and working poor?
posted by INFJ at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Tremendous" drinkers are so screwed right now
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Panthalassa is right; Clinton is killing him on facts and policy but she is not coming off as well as she could when she lets him interrupt her constantly and barely pushes back. She needs to stop ceding the microphone since Holt isn't doing his job.
posted by Justinian at 6:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


And Hillary responded to the "fighting Isis your entire adult life" with a simple pause, and then "fact check on my web site, folks...."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm sorry but to any moderate undecided that is looking at this, Trump lost them. He's acting like a lunatic. This is unhinged craziness. Sure his base will eat it up but damn, people that are thinking everyone is so ugly this election... they're gonna watch this and think he's sickening.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Looks like rage-interrupting with nonsense cured his sniffles.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016


So, I'm watching the only Bloomberg channel my cable company offers and no fact-checking on-screen?

Aside from that, yes, it seems Mr. Trump has a cold or something. It's awkward watching him sniffle.

And now, Secretary Clinton is announcing that her website is live checking facts (mentioned above, I know), but I can at least find her website and get live fact checking.

Aaaaand Lester Holt has completely lost control of this debate. Twenty minutes in.
posted by Silverstone at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016


Hillary has been fighting ISIS, which was founded by Barack Obama, her entire adult life.
posted by beerperson at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [49 favorites]


He has been ranting like a coke fiend for minutes now about not being able to repatriate money.
posted by winna at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump 2016: Why not?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


ATTACK HIM DIRECTLY FFS

"Funny, here I thought most business-people need TO BE ABLE TO COUNT."

"The last candidate who alluded to a secret plan to win a war was RICHARD NIXON"

Whew, 'crazy things.' Finally.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He sounds fucking crazy and it's hurting my brain.
posted by defenestration at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


HRC: By the end of the night, I'm going to be blamed for everything!

DJT: Why not?
posted by palindromic at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


My wife is watching upstairs, and all I hear is him interrupting her and talking over her over and over and over again. It's like being in meetings at various places I've worked.

Woman: "Here's a logical, coherent --"

Man: "YEAHBUTWHADDABOUTTHEDIDJATHINKOFANDALSOBUT..."

Moderator: ...

So I'm off to drink scotch and play The Last of Us, or, as I've taken to calling it, Post-Trump America.
posted by lord_wolf at 6:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


He's winning the screen time battle and that's his only goal. And getting in a ton of soundbites for the FOX Radio crowd to magnify.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ugh, Hillary endorsing the snake oil "tax holiday" repatriation bullshit
posted by tonycpsu at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He looks like an idiotic bully, she is going to look smug.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Him being dangerous helps her base. Him being rude helps her with moderates. I only saw a second of it but everyone just chill on the horse race speculation til it's over.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Think he is genuinely unprepared to hear a woman disagree with him for two straight minutes.
posted by palindromic at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]


I'm sorry but to any moderate undecided that is looking at this, Trump lost them

For real? I'm trying to watch this through the lens of an undecided voter and not feeling great. Trump doing what he's always done, interrupting, making a scene, trying to be the alpha dawg and generally turning it into a fucking reality show; Clinton trying really hard to hold back. Business as usual and at this rate, the polls will remain the same. Fingers crossed that something turns.
posted by windbox at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's like someone's drunk uncle talking over everything.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Lester Holt is finally starting to say "Donald, this is Hillary's time, please..."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


She HAS to shut him down directly. She has to tell him that we don't have time for interruptions and neither does our economy.
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Did I black out and wake up during the SNL sketch of this debate? How the hell are they going to caricature this?
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


He's a fucking toddler with no executive control. Soooo presidential.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I kind of felt like this was going to be a minor crapfest, but I didn't think it would bloom into a complete shitshow.
posted by Sphinx at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


She should stick to her own policies, not his.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is Trump's mic even left on during Clinton's time? Or is he just being that loud?
posted by Rangi at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


He's also doing the stereotypical male thing where he's talking across her at the other man in the conversation. That's what his asides to Lester are about.
posted by winna at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [98 favorites]


He keeps interrupting her, and that will backfire on him if it keeps up for 90 minutes. He comes across as rude and disrespectful.
posted by zarq at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh, now the moderator wants to defend the time? Where were you for the last thirty minutes?
posted by corb at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


She's really trying to make "Trumped-up trickle down" a thing. So fetch.
posted by bologna on wry at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


I want to slap him, he's so rude.
posted by Tarumba at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016


LOVE how Clinton makes notes while Trump is bloviating
posted by salix at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did someone really advise Trump that yelling at my grandmother is the way to win over the public?
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


ooh, calling him out on the "trump loophole" - proposing policies that help him and his family. Repeat of "trumped up trickle down" - it sounds a little awkward, but it will make for a zillion glorious tweets and headlines.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump on Hillary: "Sounds good"
posted by acidic at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016


Oh, the Lester Holt cardboard cut out finally woke up a bit (a little bit). That's good.

Pretty sure Hillary Clinton just barely stopped herself from a giant eye roll.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016


Lester Holt is finally starting to say "Donald, this is Hillary's time, please..."

BIASED MEDIA!!!!!!!1!11111!!!!!
posted by Artw at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Okay, so I'm in the bag for Hillary, so I may not be completely neutral, but does it seem like Trump isn't even trying to reach anyone but his base?
posted by mhz at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't think I've ever watched a debate. Roommates convinced me to hate watch-drink this.

This was a terrible decision.

*pours another*
posted by curious nu at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"The fed is doing political." -- what counts for actual discourse in 2016
posted by zachlipton at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


"tax returns" Yes!
posted by mhz at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Keep saying crazy things." Mark it: she just won the election.
posted by EarBucket at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Fed Is Doing Political.
posted by acidic at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016


Did he just blame Yellen for 'being political' and leaving rates at 0%, but claim it'd be awful if the interest rates went up? What?
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes, please talk about the Fed you fucking moron.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump is coming across like a ranty bully but Clinton does look a little rattled. She has never had a debate with someone like this before.
posted by Justinian at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016


Bullshit audit excuse again on the tax returns.
posted by palindromic at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Someone told Donald about the Fed today and he's quite startled to learn that the Fed has a political agenda.
posted by winna at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please call him out on the audit bullshit.
posted by homunculus at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I’m serious, if halfway through the debate Hillary just glances straight at the camera the way Eddie Murphy did in Trading Places, she’ll win by Saddam-Hussein–like margins in November
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


It's routine audit time again. The longest audit in history.
posted by dis_integration at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ooh, tax return time.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016


He keeps interrupting her, and that will backfire on him if it keeps up for 90 minutes. He comes across as rude and disrespectful.

This is a mistake. It will never backfire. Trump being aggressive and rude is his selling point. He'll come across as strong and forceful to his supporters and anyone considering leaning his way.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


You know I think the problem is we're in a post factual era - nobody really knows what the truth is, nobody trusts any paper to be unbiased. People who are not us who are watching this don't know who is right.
posted by corb at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


This man is literally vomit
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Bloomberg is showing a split screen during Clinton's answers and giving Trump a full screen on his time.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Man, she has him on the ropes already, Man, I feel better.
posted by y2karl at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, snap! Holt turns the tax question to Trump's tax returns!
posted by Gelatin at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


They asked about tax returns he gave the audit excuse
posted by Tarumba at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016


THANK YOU LESTER. Where are the taxes, Donny?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Guy behind me burst out laughing a couple times while y'all were being happy with Ms. Clinton.

I suspect he's already With Her(TM), so this does nothing to lift my morale. I want to see a Trump supporter appear crestfallen when we land.

(Context: am on a plane, and far too exposed to this debate than I care to be. Since I can;t not think of the debate, I'm on this thread.)
posted by ocschwar at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"an essentially financial statement of sorts"

Meaningless.
posted by Rangi at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Fucking Estonia is ripping us off again guys.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump: "America is being ripped off by every country in the world."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016


FUCK YEAH LESTER with the de-bullshit-ification about the audit.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


There does not seem to be a dose of medicine that will allow me to watch this without freaking out and stay awake.
posted by humanfont at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary is on point and she knows it. She's playing him like a fiddle and he's completely off the rails.
posted by EarBucket at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016


"You are perfectly free to reason them after the audit."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Glorious.
posted by vrakatar at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016


When Trump is calm and on-point, he falls back on sentence fragments and very short sentences: "No good. Not gonna happen. Americans won't stand for it. We're gonna fix it." (paraphrase) Those probably work very well in business meetings, and they're great attention grabbers, but they don't stand up to the analysis that these debates are going to get.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016


DAMN YES LESTER. It's perfectly legal to release your taxes during an audit.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Did he just verbally admit to his income being in the billions? Did I hear that right?
posted by INFJ at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016


Tax returns question. "I'm under audit" then gishing and more gishing

"IRS says you can release your taxes during the audit"
"I'll release them as soon as the audit - I've been audited almost every year"
posted by petebest at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016


He lost the grammarian vote, for sure.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Crowd cheering for the emails. WTF.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


Donald taking the opportunity to tell his inspiring riches to riches story in this tax return question.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh god was that cheering on the emails?
posted by corb at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016


Did the audience not agree to refrain from clapping?
posted by PorcineWithMe at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016


My lawyers say don't release your taxes!
posted by petebest at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016


This debate is so New York. All the yelling, boasting, interrupting. I don't feel great about our country, but it is familiar.
posted by dame at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


SHUT THE FUCK UP HOFSTRA AUDIENCE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO SHUT UP.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Why are they cheering? They were instructed to make no noise?
posted by bluecore at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016


She needs to go on the attack and stop being on the defensive. I see his appeal now (even if I think he's a rabid dog and mentally ill). So many people are angry and he always sounds angry so he sounds so much more authentic than she does. The Dems have always underestimated how angry people are at the status quo.
posted by gt2 at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He will release his tax return when she releases her thirty three thousand emails. The crowd applauded and if they're not kicked out I will be very angry.
posted by winna at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


excuse me but they're allowing applause and cheers at an email dig?? Wtf
posted by triggerfinger at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


this guy is a sociopathic narcissist.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


MetaFilter: Let me admonish the audience one more time.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


A group of Trumpsters in the crowd just cheered mightily when Trump brought up the emails.
posted by Justinian at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016


It was and Lester had to chastise the audience.
posted by palindromic at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016


What a perfectly stupid analogy. He'll release tax returns when she releases 33,000 emails. Sounds great, means nothing, just like the man himself.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"I'll release my taxes when the audit is over"

"I've been under audit for 15 years"

HEAD ------> DESK
posted by Panjandrum at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


You know who gets audited by the IRS when other people don't?

Crooks.
posted by Gelatin at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [68 favorites]


And then he quickly adds on another condition to releasing his taxes when confronted with the fact that he's not blocked by the audit. What an ass.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


MAYBE HE'S NOT AS RICH AS HE SAYS HE IS
posted by palindromic at 6:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


she has gone there, huzzah
posted by palindromic at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, thanks for admonishing the AUDIENCE for us, Lester.
posted by Rykey at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Maybe he's not as rich as he says he is...

Slide in that knife, Hillary!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


I wish she wouldn't go into specifics about what he might be hiding in his tax returns. Just let it hang there.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016


Dude, 15 years of IRS audits is not a prize. Trump is talking about his audits like they're some kind of award that the IRS gives to special rich people.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


"not as rich" " not as charitable"

"owes $650 million"

"paid nothing in federal taxes"
posted by mhz at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oh shit she said maybe he's not as rich as he says he is.
posted by winna at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Sorry, but he's winning this.
I lived through Rob Ford and this is a page out of the same fucked-up playbook. People don't care about facts. He's louder and he's owning the stage.
My deepest sympathies.
posted by chococat at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


On what planet was it cool to have NBC and Lester Holt mod the debates? NBC has fellated Trump for months now.
posted by Sphinx at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ooooh, she said it! "Maybe he's not as rich as he says he is."
posted by lovecrafty at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016


"That makes me smart"? Is that what he just said to not paying taxes??
posted by mudpuppie at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [29 favorites]


TAXES ARE PATRIOTIC!
posted by vrakatar at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's never paid income tax.

"That makes me smart"
posted by petebest at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


What did he just say that he didn't pay any taxes because he is smart?
posted by aetg at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


When a boxer gets hit and it hurts, they smile. When she mentioned him being in debt to banks, he smiled. Telling.
posted by bluecore at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Zero for troops, Zero for vets. Yeah, drill that home.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


"Maybe the reason he hasn't released his results is because maybe my opponent is a fucking liar"
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not paying any income taxes "makes me smart" -Trump
posted by zarq at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"There's something he's hiding..."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"That makes me smart"

Wouldn't have know if you hadn't pointed it out.
posted by Rangi at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary: Maybe he's not as rich as he says he is. Maybe he isn't as charitable... He owes money to Wall Street and foreign banks. Maybe they show he hasn't paid any income tax.

Donald: That makes me smart.
posted by mochapickle at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Enjoy this while it lasts guys because it means the Email thing is up next. Holt would never....

and there it is.
posted by Justinian at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016


My deepest sympathies.

oh wow thanks!!
posted by zutalors! at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016


THAT MAKES ME SMART omgomgomg *spiritually does another line*
posted by acidic at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


She went there!

Not as rich, not as charitable, in debt to forwign banks, and a tax dodger.

And good Ford, Trump smirks that not paying taxes is "smart."
posted by Gelatin at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


This, this is why I am so confident. She's slaying, she's slaying with my mid-western GOP family, she's slaying with my young liberal friends, she's fucking great at this. She's balancing on her female-politician knife-edge just fine, and hitting well doing it.
posted by neonrev at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


"That makes me smart"!!!
posted by Flashman at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016


"Who does he owe money to? He owes you the answers to that"
posted by petebest at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


oh shit hil going to the jugular on his tax returns
posted by entropicamericana at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016


Not paying taxes makes him smart?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh Christ I am so sick of this email bullshit.
posted by winna at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Did he just FUCKING SAY "That makes me smart" when she said he paid no federal taxes????
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"I'm not going to make any excuses."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016


"...showed he paid nothing in federal taxes."
"That makes me smart."

Wow! Really?
posted by booksherpa at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary: What are those conflicts? Who does he owe money to?
posted by mochapickle at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016


Fucking emails.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary Clinton, 45th President of these United States, everyone.
posted by hleehowon at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


This condescending serial killer whisper voice does not work for him.
posted by palindromic at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Donald keeps referring to having friends. Bloomberg should fact-check that.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [70 favorites]


It's irrelevant if the emails have anything to do with his taxes. It's let him bring up the email issue, a major weakness for her, and now he's able to hammer on it over and over. He was clearly waiting for that tax return point to open the email attack. Now it's on the table and in people's minds.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think she handled the emails beautifully. Very simple - admitted error, took responsibility, moved on.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


Oh my god, Trump is such a narcissist he moved on from the email thing to talk about himself. HE MOVED ON FROM CLINTON'S WORST ISSUE TO TALK ABOUT HIMSELF.

Ahem, carry on.
posted by Justinian at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [86 favorites]


Not paying taxes makes you smart... until you admit it while running for public office, dumbass.
posted by Artw at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


He must not have focus-grouped "under-leveraged."
posted by tonycpsu at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


'You don't learn that much from tax returns, you learn more from financial disclosure.'

lol

Now he's defending how rich he is?
posted by winna at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


ah yes, using banks as a personal reference. because everyone trusts banks!
posted by Glibpaxman at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Will braggadocious be the biggest word he uses?
posted by palindromic at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


He's winning this, and it's because this is his element. He's good at TV, he's good at bullying, he's good at being an asshole, and she isn't good at any of those things. I'm glad I've got gin, because I'm very depressed, and I really hope I turn out to be wrong about this.
posted by koeselitz at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Bring up his bankruptcies Hillary.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Again, this went from ha ha to really fucking frightening.
posted by Sphinx at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Braggadocious"
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump starting to sound like Andy Daly as Don DeMello.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's a little right about our airports.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


The weird thing is he couldn't stick on the emails very long because he felt compelled to go back to word-salading about how his tax returns are boring and he's very rich.

He did pull out the word braggadocios though.
posted by cortex at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


She shouldn't have said he is hiding something with not releasing his taxes. That seems like she's just asking him to say she is hiding something with the emails. Instead, she should call him on the "not paying income taxes makes me smart" thing. What?!
posted by sockermom at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump has never done ANYTHING "not in a braggadocious way."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait... he was free to continue talking about Hillary's emails, but he turned it back to his net worth of his own volition?
posted by zennie at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


"I could give you a list of banks" is no "Anybody wanna buy some wood?"
posted by yellowbinder at 6:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Haha he took his answer from emails back to justifying his lack of tax returns. What a dummy.
posted by Tarumba at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah our airports suck, donnie.
posted by vrakatar at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016


"I'll quit tomorrow!"
posted by Flashman at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016


What is he doing? He had an attack going on emails and now he's talking about LaGuardia being a dump.
posted by zachlipton at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I wish she had a way to mention, "he keeps talking about 33k deleted emails like that's a lot. My friends in the tech industries know that that can be a busy weekend, and half of them are likely to be 'thanks' and 'me too.'"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


These incredible airports with slave fucking labor.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


I wonder if she'll bring up that time Trump deleted emails during an investigation?
posted by fomhar at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


He was going to bring up the emails either way, it's not as if she screwed up and gave him an opening.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's sitting there complaining about public infrastructure NOT FIVE MINUTES after saying that not paying taxes is smart. Call him on it Hillary!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


GUYS. Can we remember to use [real] and [fake] tags. At least if people are going to post things that weren't actually said as if they were quotes?
posted by threeturtles at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


If you can't learn much from the tax returns, JUST FUCKING RELEASE THEM DONNY
posted by Panjandrum at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I could give you a list of banks"

"Braggadocious(?) way"

"Our airports are a third world country?"

What is this even?
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I can't imagine how "only suckers pay taxes" and "$650,000,000 is barely real money at all" is going to possibly play well in middle america, but you never know.
posted by absalom at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


Yo, so I have flown to Blantyre International Airport in Malawi. It was next to a cornfield and had a single airstrip. I had to pay a dollar to gain access to the cafe.

I fly from Detroit Metro all the time. It's nicer than BWI.
posted by palindromic at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump doesn't know what the term "Third World Country" means.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


LESTER. KEEP CONTROL OF YOUR AUDIENCE.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016


Will Clinton explain how the debt works please.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


When was the last time he flew commercial?
posted by schmod at 6:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


This will be edited to make him sound coherent. The reality tv strategy of gabbling away and cutting it down to soundbites will pay off.
posted by winna at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"It would be squandered too"... the conditional there sounds a lot like an admission that he's not paying his full tax.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


he's good at bullying, he's good at being an asshole,

But who the heck sees him doing that and judges it as winning? Bullying assholes do not make good presidents.
posted by Rangi at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's a little right about our airports\\
"Third world countries" is shitty gross language.
posted by zutalors! at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


HEY applause for Hillary
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016


Good, go after the folks he stiffed!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, Hillary nailing him on stiffing his employees!

YES HILLARY GET HIM GO DO IT NOW
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


This stiffing contractors thing is landing hard.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh shit, we have an architect in the audience
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


> Braggadocios

Meredith or one of the Steves got him a word of the day calendar.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Having recently flown into and out of Havana airport, I can assure you that US airports are in fact quite unlike at least one specific third-world airport.
posted by mwhybark at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


She invited an architect trump stiffed to sit in the audience.
posted by winna at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Goddamn, this is the Hillary Clinton I was hoping would show up for this debate.

Knives. Fucking. Out.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


"He hasn't paid income taxes"
"It would've been squandered"
posted by curious nu at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


c'mon Hillary, get to his bankruptcies.
posted by klarck at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ooooh, nice! Trump says country is going to hell, we're a borderline third-world nation... Clinton replies with, maybe that's because you haven't paid any taxes.

And then goes on to his business practices - stiffing suppliers and workers.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


Pay your bills, Donald. Apologize, Donald. I'm glad my Dad never worked for you, Donald.

Beautiful.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [36 favorites]


How often does he really think he can chime in with stuff like not paying taxes is smart, and if he had paid taxes it would have been wasted, and not piss off the people who are actually paying taxes every year? and the people who benefit from the services paid for with those taxes? He seems so thoroughly tone deaf.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump continues his rampage of interrupting right over Hillary. Lester is the worst.
posted by mochapickle at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


It is pretty astonishing how he just let that email thing drop. It was the perfect opportunity to fire all cannons. He really can't control himself at all.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Unless you're watching this thing with undecided voters or Trump supporters, not one of you is in a position to gauge who is winning this.
posted by ocschwar at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


The response of 'Wrong' is, what, like what a 10-year-old would do.
posted by palindromic at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am watching this with a #NeverTrump eye, and I have to say, it's not looking good. He's looking like an asshole, but not as much of an asshole as he usually is.
posted by corb at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


If Trump is bemoaning the state of America's infrastructure, Clinton needs to bring up the fact that he is planning on decimating America's income-raising capacity by slashing taxes.
posted by Panthalassa at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton: Sure, let's talk about your businesses. I met people stiffed by you...
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Maybe he didn't do a good job"... to the architect who's in the audience, who he refused to pay.
posted by Rangi at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Oh wow, she's ripping him to shreds on his business acumen.
posted by zarq at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


She's poking him on stiffing workers.

And he just tacitly admitted it by justifying it.

She has Trump dancing to her tune.
posted by Gelatin at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


She needs to keep him on his business. He's his own worst enemy there.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016


Bankruptcy! Drink!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]




"it's all words"

IT'S A DEBATE MOTHERFUCKER
posted by craven_morhead at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]


Did she just try to take back the Skittles reference?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016


"I built an unbelievable company."

Literally.
posted by acidic at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


"I take advantage" doesn't sound as good as he thinks it does.
posted by mhz at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


She's like oh you wanna talk about business?

Cheating workers bam!
Bankruptcies bam!
Stupid government ideas bam!
posted by Tarumba at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Like - to people that are used to men talking over women this doesn't play as badly as it does in the corb-and-daughter demographic.
posted by corb at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [33 favorites]


Wait, did he just argue he didn't pay the architect because maybe he didn't like the job he did? Seriously, Trump? The architect in an audience call out was such a great move on Hillary's part.

Declared bankruptcy six times!!! Oh snap, Hillary. Get him!
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


He says "My obligation RIGHT NOW is to my companies."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


This feels more like a Donald Trump intervention than a debate right now.
posted by Flashman at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


I think a lot of people admire the fact that Trump did not pay taxes. And there are others that may feel some grim satisfaction that Trump stiffed his contractors... because they were losers and deserved it.
posted by My Dad at 6:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's losing his breath.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


It is an unbelievable company, Mr. Trump.
posted by maryr at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016


He's a little right about our airports.

A little, but US airports (esp. pure domestic ones like LGA) are more like railway stations than international hubs like Schiphol or Dubai or Singapore. They're there to get you from Des Moines to Baton Rouge.
posted by holgate at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


THIS IS THE TACK HE'S TAKING? "The laws of the nation"?
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He bragged about siding the people that Hillary mentioned?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016


"Tens of thousands of people who think I'm unbelievable and they love me" W. T. F.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016


"I took advantage of the laws of the nation" in order to stiff people. He's proud of it. :/ how can people vote for this man.
posted by INFJ at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [31 favorites]


Took him long enough to get his hotel plug in.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Holy hell he is actually attempting to defend stiffing people who worked for him because it's taking advantage of the laws of the nation.
posted by winna at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump: I take advantage of the laws of the nation.
posted by Gelatin at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Advertising on the presidential debates? Unbelievable.
posted by arcticseal at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He just plugged his Washington DC hotel!
posted by mochapickle at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think Hillary needs to steer this back to herself and her plans stat. We're talking too much about Trump here.
posted by Panthalassa at 6:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ugh, my racist Republican housemates have returned and put the debate on, and I was very deliberately trying to avoid actually having to listen to directly.
posted by Sequence at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016


Not sure that the "you've never paid income tax" line really works.

A consistent angle of Trump's has been that - in his previous life - he was a business person working for the Trump. He pulled out all the stops. He minimized taxes paid, he used bankruptcy courts, he worked his connections with those in power (including the clintons).

Now, his pitch is that he will use that same attitude for the coutnry.

This largely innoculates him from this line of attack, imo.
posted by cacofonie at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Bloomberg "fact check" is apparently Trump supporters tweeting.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is he... not a crook?
posted by Artw at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


No, he's winning this. His negotiation defense is going to resonate. I need to turn this off. Fuck fuck fuck.
posted by schmod at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


... and that's the first half.
posted by koeselitz at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016


Who gives a shit about how much money your farcical company is making?

EDIT: You have to be joking. Trump looks like my Dad's crazy friend who insists on open carrying a shotgun around.
posted by Sphinx at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is turning into "let the idiot talk" and kill the time, he can not respond to her, he tries but then goes off topic to the tune of 20 more topics.
posted by vrakatar at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"We start our next segment by talking about race."

Oh shit.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oh boy. Race. This should be interesting.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2016


"race determines where people live"

Damn...burn on trump with that one.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hoo boy Les Holt is giving Trump a lot of
... opportunity for Trump to turn voters off on the subject of race.
posted by Gelatin at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2016


well she's talked for like 1.5 minutes and said basically nothing, cool talk about race guys
posted by likeatoaster at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bullying assholes do not make good presidents.

Reasonable people know that, but some large number of Americans apparently thinks otherwise. God, it's terrifying to live here sometimes.
posted by Rykey at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Like you say I can't know how Trump is doing with conservatives, but he doesn't look well and I think people will notice
posted by Countess Elena at 6:45 PM on September 26, 2016


It sounds to me like Clinton is trying to avoid the word "plan," as in not saying "I have a plan to."
posted by zachlipton at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2016


Is this how this is supposed to go? Are we supposed to feel this sick during this time?

Like my parents and I are life-long tea-totalers and my mom just asked me to go get either wine or tequila so we can deal

Also I am disappointed in Clinton's weak opening statement re: race.
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Who has "jaw-dropping racial insensitivity" on their bingo card? LOOK SHARP, YOU'RE UP.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Folks, no amount of logic or flawless performance from Secretary Clinton is going to convince the sort of folks who would vote for Trump. This is theater, and the country will vote aproximately 50/50.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


HOW DO YOU HEAL, MR TRUMP?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump: I take advantage of the laws of the nation

He's the patron saint of every American who has ever screamed for a refund at Jack in the Box. This is why they like him.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [56 favorites]


I think she was counting on Trump's completely tone deaf response about "Law and Order."
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


hillary comin for our guns
posted by entropicamericana at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016


No guns, don't mention guns, we all know about guns and what democrats want to do about guns, don't mention it, don't give them the soundbite.
posted by neonrev at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump has eye lips when his eyes are closed.
posted by angrybear at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"We've got endorsements from the police who are causing the problem."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes, Frank Luntz is trash, but he's tweeting some interesting things with trend lines, "Hillary Clinton has learned how to bait Trump. He doesn't know how to not take it. Her attacks work. His defenses don't."
posted by gladly at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Don't talk about Hispanics, Don.
posted by Sphinx at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump saying "law and order" is based on "white people policing black people".

That's racist as fuck.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]


How do you get from "healing the race divide" to "we need law and order"? Answer the fucking question, Cheeto.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


well she's talked for like 1.5 minutes and said basically nothing, cool talk about race guys

Yeah, that was bad
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump is hammering law and order and was apparently endorsed by the fraternal order of police.
posted by winna at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016


Dumpy Donald wears a non-power-tie he can't even tie correctly. Clinton wears an entire power suit!
posted by XMLicious at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


A lot of people I know will settle for the order.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump just said "African-Americans and Hispanics are living in hell!" And three feet to my left, a black man standing against the wall and watching just started laughing uncontrollably.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [112 favorites]


"Over the last number of years." WHAT NUMBER, THE DONALD?
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


So Trump boasts about police endorsements and tries to court the groups who have learned to distrust the police?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm sort of bummed that Clinton chose to bring up gun control in the context of a question on race. I know she probably feels like she might not have time to bring it up later, but right now is not a great time to be tying race issues to gun issues like this.
posted by aka burlap at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"We need law and order". This is so not the right take on Tulsa and Charlotte, Donald.
posted by Flashman at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016


And now in Best Bar In The World there is general booing at Trump's "Stop and frisk" talk.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh Christ he's applauding stop and frisk.
posted by winna at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The sad, sick, disgusting thing about America is that people ask a man "what do you think about our problems with race?" and the man says "WE NEED LAW AND ORDER IN THIS COUNTRY!" and the whole crowd thinks that's not a hideous or terrifying thing to say and just sits there.
posted by koeselitz at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


Trump: "African Americans and Hispanics are living in hell"

WTF.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I would like to see Clinton speak more strongly and clearly about actual What To Do shit on race, but honestly if you know you're gonna be followed on race by a guy who is a huge racist, checking and letting him bid first isn't exactly a sucker play.
posted by cortex at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [34 favorites]


Do not invoke the name of my city of Chicago, you blaspheming cheesegolem.
posted by lieber hair at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]


I am so glad I'm watching this with my crew and also with y'all. I couldn't get through this sober without you guys.
posted by dogheart at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


BLACK LIVES MATTER. FUCKING SAY IT ONE OF YOU TWO.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


A very...against police judge.


Best words
posted by ian1977 at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


*Lester Holt factchecks*

Trump: "You're wrong"
posted by triggerfinger at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


Ohhh Lester calling out Trump on stop and frisk being unconstitutional.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lester pointed out stop and frisk was unconstitutional and trump said he was wrong.
posted by winna at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


'A very against police judge' is a sentence that a presidential candidate said. Also 'bad people.'
posted by palindromic at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


The subject is race, right?

His answer:
Immigrants are criminals
Stop and frisk
Gangs

Yes this is a race conversation that I expected
posted by Tarumba at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [47 favorites]


Gangs of illegal immigrants.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016


And the crowd in Best Bar In The World applauded when Lester Holt pointed out "Stop and frisk" is unconstitutional, and has turned to outright jeering at Trump retorting that the judge was "anti-police".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


He's blaming gun crime on illegal immigrants now.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


The odds of them saying Black Lives Matter is.... I won't say zero but it's not high.
posted by Justinian at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


We all know what Law and Order means Donald. It's just like on the show Law and Order where Ice-T slams some innocent guy to the concrete but everyone ignores it week after week because there's always a rapist on the loose.
posted by zachlipton at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


YES. Lester Holt with the muthafuckin FACT. CHECK. "That's racial profiling."
posted by windbox at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Moderator: Stop and frisk was ruled unconstitutional for unfairly targeting ...
Trump: No, you're wrong.
posted by janell at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016


Did he just segue from sharing his views on racism to why we need to empower law enforcement to help get rid of illegal immigrants?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016


"We need law and order". This is so not the wrong take on Tulsa and Charlotte, Donald.

Not for a frighteningly large pool of potential voters.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Stop and frisk worked really well"

"Stop and frisk was ruled unconstitutional in New York"
posted by mrgoat at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Sounds like Rudy did the coaching on stop n frisk.
posted by klarck at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sounds like Donny is for gun control!
posted by numaner at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did NRA-endorsed Trump just endorse gun control?
posted by corb at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


"These are BAD PEOPLE" is part of his response on race. It's so bald-faced, so disgusting, that... ugh.
posted by koeselitz at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Dumb. Trump just said Clinton doesn't use the words law and order. She'll embrace the term in her response.

(He's also incoherent, and flat wrong on stop and frisk.)
posted by Gelatin at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016


"Stop and Frisk was deemed unconsitutional," interjects Lester as Trump is explaining how he's going to help people by expanding stop and frisk nationwide.

WHOOP THERE IT IS.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


a) Trump cannot pronounce Chicago properly

b) immigrants creating the gang problem in Chicago, you idiot, and the problem with Chicago guns is Indiana, not Mexico or anywhere else; and you are totally unfamiliar with the legal landscape in Illinois, you will never get stop and frisk past the state supreme court.

c) STOP SAYING CHICAGO WRONG STAHP STAHP STAHP
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


"it's bad, it's terrible"

CALL HIM OUT

DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN TEN ADJECTIVES, DONALD?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


That was a really weak answer on police violence and race from Clinton, which highlights some of my problems with her. I really don't think she has it in her to address the issues of systemic racism and structural violence which are at the root of poverty and violence, and which also fuels the role of militarization and us vs. them attitude of police.

Good thing Trump is going out of his way to defend stop and frisk. A shit sandwich is better than a dumpster fire after all.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump says we have to have stop and frisk.

'I have property there - it's terrible in Chicago.'
posted by winna at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I care about that city, I have property there!
posted by uosuaq at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


This is the part of the debate where Donald Trump tells the moderator, who is black, what isn't racist.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [49 favorites]


Holt: Stop and Frisk was ruled unconstituional...because it largely singled out black and hispanic people
Trump: No, you're wrong [he isn't].. it went before...a not, a against police judge.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Welp, the police like Trump. I think this election is decided. After all, who dislikes the police?

Trump has property there FOR CHRISSAKES!!!!
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


AAGGHHHHGH IS THIS WHAT THE REST OF YOU HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH ALL YEAR

AGAHAGAHAGAHAGAGSHSGSGSB
posted by curious nu at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


How does any of what's Trump saying broaden his appeal? Is this his GOTV plan or something? I am sympathetic to the idea that he might be winning this from the perspective of his worst supporters, but at the same time, if this is your first major introduction to him, I just don't know that I see a clear win here... Still developing, of course.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


What happened to the realtime fact checking that was supposed to happen on Bloomberg?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016


Help, I am losing oxygen every time Trump says "property" or "investments"
posted by Hermione Granger at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump's point about thousands of shootings is valid. His response to it it stupid, but her response to it is nothing.

Guess that's a pretty good metaphor for Campaign 2016®.
posted by anarch at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald knows things are bad in Chicago because it's affecting his property values, apparently.
posted by joedan at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


oh jesus. That was it. He just fucking sunk himself with his comment that "you need stop and frisk".

This guy is a fucking racist.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm thinking it would be so much better if Lester did fact-checking and some other person did the actual moderating/making sure Trump stops interjecting with pouts.
posted by mochapickle at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Why is the moderator letting him continue after calling time?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hey Donald, you're interrupting me texting my cousin's goofy friend somewhere in Europe offering a bunch of money to crash on his couch for a decade or so.
posted by Sphinx at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016


FFS. Stop and Frisk was designed to instill fear in minorities.
posted by homunculus at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


The sniffing is so off putting
posted by readery at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016


This man is so tone deaf to the racial divide that he's barely even speaking the same language. Some adviser told him that white people wanted to hear about how horrible the lives of minorities are, and that's become his only race-related talking point. He really seems to believe that law and order will heal America's race problem.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump cannot pronounce Chicago properly

He thinks any polysyllabic word sounds more compelling when bitten off in a sing-song staccato.

He's wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's sighs and grunts remind me a little of Al Gore.
posted by homunculus at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I may have just screamed at the television about Dallas.
posted by maryr at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


if facts and critical thinking still mattered in america, things would be looking very bad for donald trump right now
posted by entropicamericana at 6:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


YES, QUOTE THE FUCKING CRIME STATS, HIL!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I enjoyed that audible groan at her point, very presidential
posted by Countess Elena at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


These dumbass tweets that Bloomberg is putting on the screen are supposed to be fact checking?
posted by roll truck roll at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hillary didn't look angry until he tried defending stop and frisk. Attacking her didn't get her hackles up but that certainly did.
posted by Tevin at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


Now he's doing that Hapsburg jaw thing again. So fucking creepy.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


HRC: We have to address the systemic racism in our criminal justice system.
posted by palindromic at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [40 favorites]


She said the R word! Yay!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


We can't just say "law and order" we need a plan.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Please tell me somebody is using that app that tracks male vs female speaking times. I'm too busy yelling at my screen to do it.
posted by instamatic at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


trained lawyer vs real estate huckster...I die relaxi.
posted by vrakatar at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's able to dial it back, build it back up, and hammer a point. He's like a klaxon.
posted by petebest at 6:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


clinton: "the black community"
trump: "ugh"


God, I was hoping against hope that I'd misheard that.
posted by jesourie at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Clinton: "In fact, violent crime is half of what it was in 1991".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary directly calls out the systemic racism in our criminal justice system by pointing out that young black men go to jail for things young white men are not jailed for.
posted by winna at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [64 favorites]


HRC: We shouldn't have a profit motive to fill our prisons with young Americans.
posted by palindromic at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [51 favorites]


Someone at Best BAr In The World just shouted out "preach it!" During Hillary's 2 minutes on race and inequality.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


He made an actual sound of disgust when she started talking about what law and order means for actual black people
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [31 favorites]


Clinton: "We've got to address the systemic racism in our system. We cannot just say 'law and order'".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


"I'm glad we're getting rid of privately owned prisons in the federal system, and I want to get rid of them in the state system, too."

YES. She's on top again.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


Systemic racism gets mentioned as fact in a national debate. I'm marking this moment in my life.
posted by shelbaroo at 6:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [105 favorites]


He's clearly trying to build consensus with her in a kind of "yeah I think that too" kind of way.
posted by petebest at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016


I don't know what anyone else is thinking about Clinton's performance here but this is the point where my attitude towards her went from accepting to enthusiastic.
posted by dis_integration at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


HRC: I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police.
posted by palindromic at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [77 favorites]


Implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police.

Thank you. Now say Black Lives Matter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


HRC: "Implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police."
posted by Westringia F. at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


"I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police." Wow she actually said it.
posted by winna at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


She's nailing this section.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


She's dodging the implicit bias bullets like it's the goddamned Matrix
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


She's right about bias but is this too left for the crowd, I worry
posted by Countess Elena at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


that's awesome we're talking about implicit bias. SAY BLACK LIVES MATTER.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


This(race and police laws) is a good subject for her. He doesn't have any prepared interruption points.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ugh no not the no fly no buy thing!
posted by instamatic at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary: "I think implicit bias is a problem for many of us, not just police.... We need to ask ourselves some questions."
posted by mochapickle at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yes there is systemic bias. !
Police having to handle mental health issues

Trump nodding a lot. He agrees with alot.
posted by petebest at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016


Tricky question from Holt about implicit bias in the police, fielded well by Clinton.
posted by dazed_one at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh snap "we all have implicit bias"! Did Hillary get woke???
posted by numaner at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it possible expectations were not lowered sufficiently?

I am not a fucking idiot pundit so I find it hard to tell.
posted by Artw at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


How can you think that stop-and-frisk is an example of systemic racism and defend the terror watchlist?
posted by roll truck roll at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Even his hair is a lie.
posted by valkane at 6:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Bring up the Central Park killers ad, damnit.
posted by Yowser at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"superpredator" dammit
posted by koeselitz at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He just advocated a No Fly Zone gun ban, hated by the NRA, while touting the NRA's endorsement.
posted by chris24 at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


OK, HRC did mention systemic racism, if only with regards to the criminal justice system. She's very awkward on this topic and keeps pivoting to gun control. I suppose I'm dreaming to think a major political candidate to acknowledge and face the fact that America has a deep strain of racism that has infected our society from top to bottom. Changes in policing are great, but aren't going to solve our racist society.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's trying to get her on superpredators - that's all he's got. She has this in the bag.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's going back to stop and frisk. He doesn't know to leave it.
posted by petebest at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Dude Trump stop with the stop and frisk you're killing yourself
posted by Tarumba at 6:56 PM on September 26, 2016




"I think it was a terrible thing to say." -- not words that ought to be coming from Donald Trump of all people
posted by Rangi at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


MetaFilter: 500 murders is a lot of murders.
posted by vrakatar at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy shit Donald Trump just said that "there might be a political reason" why Hillary is saying she doesn't support stop and frisk.
posted by winna at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


You are not going to hear the words "Black Lives Matter" in this debate. The phrase is too tainted by bias at this point. People actually believe that BLM is a second coming of the Black Panthers (who weren't even that bad!).
posted by explosion at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


I have the /pol/ thread on this open in another tab. Interestingly, they're fairly split on who's winning, but they seem enraged by Trump's gun control comments.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I suppose I'm dreaming to think a major political candidate to acknowledge and face the fact that America has a deep strain of racism that has infected our society from top to bottom. Changes in policing are great, but aren't going to solve our racist society.

Depends on if you want them to win or not. Maybe in 20 years.
posted by Justinian at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016


"You're a racist just like me, you just won't admit it."
posted by charred husk at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think he is unaware that white radicals are put on terrorism watch lists.
posted by palindromic at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016


she's getting nailed by her "superpredator" comment from the 90's. Good. Let her sweat this one, answer the question Hillary.

Trump, you're still a fucking asshole.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump goes back to defending stop and frisk. Amazing.
posted by mochapickle at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nope. Murder is up. Nope.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016


He keeps falling back on stuff, at some point here I expect him to announce that his tremendous new hotel will feature complimentary stop-and-frisk for all guests once their audits are over.
posted by cortex at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [38 favorites]


He just said stop and frisk is to take guns away from "gangs." Tell me that isn't a racist dog whistle.
posted by Gelatin at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump doesn't know how to do the "watch and wait" thing; he's nodding along - it looks like he's agreeing with her on gun rights (keep them away from ppl on watch lists/no fly lists), police retraining, etc.

He brings up her calling black men "young black predators." (c'mon Hilary; here's your chance to say "I was young and ignorant and I have since learned that black lives matter.")
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"superpredator" dammit

Yeah but he just kept blathering on and on and on and on, burying it. Typical Trump. He wastes prime opportunities to nail Clinton. I think it's psychological.
posted by My Dad at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Folks, no amount of logic or flawless performance from Secretary Clinton is going to convince the sort of folks who would vote for Trump. This is theater, and the country will vote aproximately 50/50

This is probably a pretty good approximation for most of the electorate. But at the margins... there are some people who really dislike Trump and think they dislike Clinton because of the smoke that's been going up their whole lives. This is one chance they might have to get to know her instead of the hints and caricatures they've absorbed. I don't know how big the change will be at those margins but I think it's possible it could make a difference.
posted by wildblueyonder at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump has no idea what is happening in Detroit.
posted by palindromic at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2016


KNOCK KNOCK
WHO'S THERE?
INTERRUPTING TRUMP
posted by zarq at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [43 favorites]


HRC: I think Donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate. And you know what else I prepared for? Being President.
posted by palindromic at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [115 favorites]


BIRTHERISM.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016


There's no clapping! Come on, y'all. Even when it's clapping we all want to do.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"And you know what else I prepared for? Being President. And I think that's a good thing."
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I PREPARED TO PRESIDENT YOU SCHMUCKY OOMPA LOOMPA
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Well, she got a shot off with the "prepared to be a president" thing - that's good.
posted by koeselitz at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I PREPARED TO BE PRESIDENT, AND I THINK THAT'S A GOOD THING.

OMFG THE BIRTHERISM!!!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Heaven help me, Donald stop mentioning my state and cities in my state. We don't need you to shine a spotlight on how shitty Michigan is. Thank you.
posted by INFJ at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I prepared to be President. And that's a good thing."
posted by phunniemee at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


20 seconds?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016


OH FUCK birtherism
posted by chaoticgood at 6:59 PM on September 26, 2016


Democrats have "controlled these [black] communities" for 100 years? The people you are talking about can vote, you idiot, and they fought long and hard for that right. Calling voters pawns is not going to go over well.
posted by zachlipton at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


KNOCK KNOCK
WHO'S THERE?
INTERRUPTING TRUMP


Oh yeah right like interrupting Trump actually knocks.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]


"Democrats have always exploited inner city people"
REALLY WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THEM DONNY??
posted by numaner at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Birther question! Go Lester Holt.

Trump: "blame Clinton 2008"
posted by petebest at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016


For this birther section, she has brought her Between Two Ferns face.
posted by palindromic at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


holy crap he's doubling down on this Hillary birther malarkey
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh god, is he going to - is he going to call her the original birther?
posted by koeselitz at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016


Oh snap!! "You know what else I prepared for? I prepared to be President."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I know I should be providing context but the phrase WHAT THE FUCK IS HE EVEN TALKING ABOUT really applies to this whole section
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh, is this the place where Trump starts quoting Infowars?
posted by Panjandrum at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


If nothing else comes out of this debate, I hope we'll at least be able to come together as a nation on one point. Whatever his policies, whatever his qualifications, like him or not, we must agree: this man is a dick.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


Wow, surprisingly weak birther defense. I'm surprised he didn't have some tirade ready to sideswipe it.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Seriously if she's not winning at this point she can't win. If she doesn't get a huge bump among undecides I give up.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's trying to do "I'm not a birther; Hilary's a birther!"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lester, I have to say I may have been too hasty in judging you.
posted by zachlipton at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Is he just bringing up Jewish names now every time Clinton's people are mentioned?
posted by corb at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Just saw someone post this on Facebook: NPR's transcribing and fact-checking the debate live on its site. (The transcript is a little garbled from having to keep up with everything but might be worth checking out once the dust settles.)
posted by xenization at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: I say nothing, but let me just tell you.
posted by palindromic at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton smiling at all of Trump's idiocy gives me life.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Holt just called out Trump out for lying about getting the birth certificate
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Nobody was caring much about it.<----the reason why he was still bringing up birtherism for 5 years after Obama produced the birth certificate.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump to Holt: "I knew you'd ask this question [about birtherism] tonight."

Which means he had no idea Holt would ask that.
posted by mochapickle at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"What do you say to America about racial healing?"

"I say nothing."
posted by aka burlap at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


word salad for everyone.
posted by vrakatar at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump just *admitted* continuing the birther obsession after Obama produced his birth certificate!
posted by Gelatin at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton is breaking the fourth wall, shaking her head to us, the audience, re: the birther crap Trump is spewing. ~waves and gives a thumbs up to Hillary~
posted by but no cigar at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Just listen to what you heard"
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Just listen to what you heard..."

FUCK YEAH!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


There's a lot there.
posted by curious nu at 7:02 PM on September 26, 2016


On birtherism, his answer is "I say nothing"

His answer is birtherism? "Fuck you that's my answer."
posted by craven_morhead at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016


"Now everyone in the mainstream media is going to say it's not true..."

Yes, because it's not true.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016


She just called it "the whole racist birther lie!" She said racist. Twice. Damn straight.
posted by zachlipton at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


I believe Trump has just made political history by having his approval rating in the Black community drop below zero. That's right, Black people who haven't even been born yet hate Donald Trump
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [65 favorites]


mad props to the closed captioner who may end up getting aphasia-by-proxy due to transcribing trump tonight
posted by entropicamericana at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Lester- 'What do you say about racial healing?'

Trump - 'I say nothing.'

We are done here. That is the money quote.
posted by winna at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [76 favorites]


Holt: "What do you say about racial healing [wrt questioning whether Obama was born in the US for years]"

Trump: "I say nothing."

That about sums it up.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow, he's really really sniffling.
posted by lovecrafty at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


HRC: "He started his political career based in this racist birther lie."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh my god I just have a weird aneurysm moment I cannot believe Trump is there behaving that way. It's so embarrassing.
posted by Tarumba at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016


Woo, finally. Thank you. Call him a racist. Call him a liar. Make him answer for his actual record.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


JUST LISTEN TO WHAT YOU HEARD!
posted by numaner at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"racist birther lie!" YES. YES.
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Justice Dept lawsuit. This is such a sick burn.
posted by asockpuppet at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Am loving this. She came loaded for bear.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump has absolutely NO IDEA that questioning a black man's citizenship is a racist affront. None.
posted by zennie at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Trump swerving hard to avoid addressing the fact that he kept bringing up the birther myth for years after the certificate was produced.
posted by Panthalassa at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton just called out Donald's birtherism as a "racist lie." Quotes intended. Can I get a THANK YOU?'
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


WHO IS UNDECIDED? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?
posted by cacofonie at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


"Just listen to what you heard..."
I did listen and my ears started bleeding.
posted by bawanaal at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh shit she's calling him on housing discrimination in the 70s.
posted by lovecrafty at 7:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm literally clapping for her response on the birther issue. Not figuratively literally. Actually literally.
posted by dis_integration at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Biggly is the new embiggen. Make America Cromulent Again.
posted by drezdn at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


He just claimed to settle a racial bias suit "with no admission of guilt".

So...that just means he pleaded "no contest".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


Trump on his racist past: "It's just one of those things"
posted by joeyh at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"We settled with no admission of guilt!" DOESN'T MEAN YOU WEREN'T GUILTY ASSHOLE
posted by numaner at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


YES. YES. She called it a racist lie! And she used the housing discrimination from the seventies! She deployed it with perfect accuracy, it was amazing. Now she's praising Obama's grace under fire; Trump is accusing her of being disrespectful to Obama in 2008 and therefore hypocritical to be praising him now.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


The Guardian today says:
Murders up 10.8% in biggest percentage increase since 1971, FBI data shows
Rising violence in 2015 driven by increase in murders of black men and gun crime, as experts brace for political ‘hysteria’ amid 2016 election
But even with that increase, still lower that Trump's figure of 500 murders in NYC supposedly due to stop and frisk:
New York City, which saw more than 2,000 murders a year in the early 1990s, saw just 352 last year, according to New York police department data.
posted by XMLicious at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump you don't get kudos for not being a racist. That's the standard.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Senator Cory Booker (D-NJ) tweets during this debate have been awesome.
posted by humanfont at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I settled that lawsuit with no admission of guilt."
         -Donald Trump, on being a racist jerkhole.
posted by Justinian at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump straight up tells Hillary she is acting holier-than-thou, then rambles on about the nasty commercials she does on him (the commercials are often just strings of his soundbytes).
posted by mochapickle at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really don't think Trump is the one to decide how Obama interacts or feels about Clinton?
posted by palindromic at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Re: Birther shit - amazing that when pressed about it, in a presidential debate, the dude just gets to say "I say nothing". That's it! How about that. He doesn't feel like talking about it. Remarkable. That's the level of discourse we're at.
posted by windbox at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Okay, she's doing much better than she was, and I'm - cautiously relieved?
posted by koeselitz at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016


His argument is something like "well they sued lots of people for racial discrimination." That's because there were a lot of fucking racists.

And now he wants "great credit" for letting non-white people into his club.
posted by zachlipton at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump says: I watched your campaign against Obama, and you were very mean to him! Don't try to pretend you're good friends!

You make nasty commercials about me! I don't make nasty commercials about you - maybe I'm trying to save the money.

...um. Not being persuasive there.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I like when he's so proud of letting black people into his club.
posted by areaperson at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Donald Trump has absolutely NO IDEA that questioning a black man's citizenship is a racist affront. None.


This. Motherfucker. This.
posted by shoesietart at 7:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [58 favorites]


"The nasty commercials you do on me that I don't do on you."

The only nasty commercials I have seen were the ones that showed kids, veterans, grandparents, etc LISTENING TO HIM TALK IN HIS OWN WORDS.
posted by instamatic at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [61 favorites]


What picture of garb is he referring to??
posted by Miko at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2016


I think I know where we're going with Clinton bringing up Russia.
posted by Panthalassa at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait a second... Did he just defend against accusations of racism by touring his regard for Muslims?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's rambling about a club? What club? Who cares?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I hate Trump so much I can't watch the debates just because I can't stand to hear him speak.
posted by asteria at 7:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


nice, they finally cut away from him for interrupting. wonder if they've stepped on his mic too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did no one coach him on how to answer questions about his racial discrimination suit? That was nearly the worst possible answer! He essentially said that he did it because everyone else was, and he settled without admitting guilt.
posted by gladly at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


Did he just sarcastically correct her pronunciation of Putin? What... I wasn't even going to drink tonight.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I've been given great credit and that is the way I feel"<--- what that means and who these people are that give Donald Trump "great credit" for being an equal opportunity landlord, I don't know. It's those people in his head again.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump is really starting to fall apart.
posted by joedan at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy shit, how could she let him off worth that no admission of guilt thing.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think Clinton really settled in to this debate. Her worst (and that's relative) bit was about 10 minutes in when Trump first lost his cool. Probably because that's something she's never had to deal with from someone over the age of 5. But she got a handle on it and the last 45 minutes have been very good.
posted by Justinian at 7:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Clinton calling out Russian hackers and Trump bromance with Putin.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


( I am a network security engineer. State-sponsored groups are a pain in the ass. That includes our own 3 letter acronyms)
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


what the hell did he just bend over to mutter?
posted by bologna on wry at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I love that she took cyber attacks and quickly zeroed in on Russia and their cyber hacking. Very topical and such a great way to needle Trump.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016


Where's Stefon when you need to understand something you just heard about a club.
posted by acidic at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]


No, he defended the accusations of racism by sharing the fact he owns a club where anyone rich can come in, regardless of how black or muslim they are!
posted by das_2099 at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


He has no idea how it sounds to normal people when he talks about how he settled lawsuits with no admission of guilt or leaned on the trades who worked for him, does he?
posted by winna at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


The 13-year-old Corb-house mini-Republican demographic has just declared "I hope Clinton wins, he is going to eat our babies."
posted by corb at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [182 favorites]


what the hell did he just bend over to mutter?

'Wrong,' I believe.
posted by Panthalassa at 7:09 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump just said he was endorsed by ICE. Isn't that a government agency? I think he meant the Border Patrol union, but he said the agency.
posted by zachlipton at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Endorsed by ICE. How is that even shaped like true
posted by Countess Elena at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [29 favorites]


Holy shit, how could she let him off worth that no admission of guilt thing.

Pulling the lawyer card probably isn't a hot move.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay, she's doing much better than she was, and I'm - cautiously relieved?

I was just thinking the same thing. It's like he used up his one move and she's pulling ahead.
posted by chococat at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wasn't Admirals and Generals a cut number from some Frank Loesser musical?
posted by asockpuppet at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


ICE can't endorse shit, Donald. IT'S PART OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT YOU DOLT.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


When your opponent says something as stupid as "No admission of guilt", don't say anything that might make you look stupid as well. It will be a great sound bite all by itself.
posted by humanfont at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Just how many admirals and generals are there?
posted by monopas at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I swear he just almost said he was endorsed by ISIS.
posted by winna at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


Asked about cyber security and babbles for a half his time about his endorsements.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm just disappointed didn't get the opportunity to respond "but Obama still appointed me Secretary of State."
posted by Gelatin at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


BINGO!
posted by danapiper at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Was fat-shaming on any of the bingo cards? Four hundred pound hacker ftw.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


...Did he just say that he'll be president for 10 years?
posted by Torosaurus at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"It could also be someone sitting on their bed who weighs 400lbs. You don't know who broke into the DNC."
posted by zachlipton at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


I don't think ICE can endorse anything at all...
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016


Welp he just lost the 4chan vote with that "hackers weighing 400 pounds" comment.

SadFace
posted by Yowser at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [71 favorites]


It could be someone sitting on their bed who weighs 400 lbs.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


You're happy with the general's endorsements, Donald? I thought you were going to fire them all?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


did he just say he got endorsed by Isis?
posted by any major dude at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016


"Endorsed by ICE" makes no sense.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016


Somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 lbs? WTF?
posted by tetsuo at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pulling the lawyer card probably isn't a hot move.

Why not? People love lawyers! Don't they?
posted by infinitywaltz at 7:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think he just reads the first ten bots that reply to his tweets and thinks that the shit they tweet is the stuff Americans care about. So much weird inside baseball idiocy.
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


someone on their bed who weights 400 pounds? The fuck??
posted by triggerfinger at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


It could've been anyone. Could've been the moon. Could've been my son with his computers.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


we came in with the internet, we wha?
posted by vrakatar at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016


oh jesus he just employed fat phobia. My heart goes out to anyone hurt by that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


did Trump just say he was endorsed by Ice-us yep that's what I heard, going with that.
posted by acidic at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is it me, or is he giving really weird emphasis to any Jewish name he mentions?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


"The computer aspect of cyber"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


Trump fat-shaming hackers now.
posted by joedan at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ye gods, he's using his national security affirmative statement to talk about the DNC emails!
posted by Gelatin at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


God Trump is such a clown how can anyone support him how how how
posted by zardoz at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016


He is all over the board with "the cyber"

Admirals love me. ICE loves me. Border patrol loves me. Cyber is . . we have ISIS. My son loves computers.
posted by petebest at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


The state of discourse in 2016: My son is good with computers. "The security aspect of cyber is very very tough"
posted by zachlipton at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


YUGE PROBLEM
posted by entropicamericana at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


cyber == sex
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


My son has computers!
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump should talk about Sidney Blumenthal some more. I think that really moves the needle with undecided voters. The Sidney demographic is key to the election.
posted by Justinian at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Of course neither of them are able to say anything intelligent and substantial about "cyberattacks", but apparently one of them can at least point out some completely idiotic things her opponent said about it.
posted by sfenders at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: "The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough... there are a number of things we need to be doing better, and certainly cyber is one of them."
posted by koeselitz at 7:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump just said he was endorsed by ICE. Isn't that a government agency? I think he meant the Border Patrol union, but he said the agency.

Yeah, ICE can't endorse, but I think the ICE officer's union did. (Job security!)
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


garb
posted by anarch at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think he just offered his 10 year old son Baron to work on internet security
posted by blue suede stockings at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


10 years old!!!!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016


For a second I thought he said admirals endorsed him to LEAVE this country.
posted by corb at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


I have the /pol/ thread on this open in another tab. Interestingly, they're fairly split on who's winning, but they seem enraged by Trump's gun control comments.

Sangermaine, I'm looking at this 4chan thread, and the attitude seems to be one of disappointment. They're not giving Trump a pass on some of the stuff we're criticizing him for here on MeFi, to wit:

Black voter here. I hate Hillary but if Trump supports nation wide "stop and frisk" I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary.
posted by iffthen at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


I have a son...he's got computers, he's good, and the cyber, and *oh could we just please extend this another hour*...
posted by uosuaq at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well Trump just lost the ten year old vote by saying the ten year olds were good with cyber and implying that it was probably them.
posted by winna at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016


He was endorsed by Vanilla Ice.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


400 lbs sitting on their bed? Nice asshole


You son is 10 and is so good at computers? Ummmmm ok.
posted by ian1977 at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"The security aspect of cyber"
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Barron Trump, Czar of Hacking
posted by dis_integration at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


did Trump just say he was endorsed by Ice-us yep that's what I heard, going with that.


Ice T?

Ice Cube?

Vanilla Ice?
posted by ocschwar at 7:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


We have problems with the cyber. Apparently.

Clinton: I have a plan to deal with ISIS as well is their online presence. (going into other details of ground war which don't relate to cybersecurity.)
posted by petebest at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am so sorry
posted by numaner at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Dammit Hillary, you know it was the Russians.. Say so!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"The nasty commercials you do on me that I don't do on you."

Who needs to run ads when you get to advertise all you want on the fucking programming itself?
posted by Rykey at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He probably meant Vanilla Ice, you guys
posted by Sys Rq at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016


Russia Russia Russia

Oh, JAN
posted by chococat at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm going to need "the cyber" explained to me in terms of how many tubes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's not "cyber", it's "the cyber"
posted by Hairy Lobster at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


For anyone confused when Trump keeps saying 'cyber': Urban Dictionary's definition.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mod note: A shout in the wilderness I know, but again please try to aim for slightly more substantial comments about what you're reacting to rather than just tiny quotes or stranded WTFs and please consider whether you're the likely to be the fifth person to cover something. On with the insanity.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


The state of discourse in 2016: My son is good with computers

Le Dauphin Trump laughs at parental controls
posted by Countess Elena at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


She's been fighting Isis her entire adult life.
posted by ian1977 at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


The ad utterly writes itself: our nation is under attack by cybercriminals stealing your personal information, and Trump's plan is that he has a son who's good at computers. That's what you do when you can't get your address book to pop up in Outlook, not to lead a national policy on internet security.
posted by zachlipton at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


They have excellent tubes in Dubai. Tubes like you've never seen.
posted by winna at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016


The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough

That makes...a little bit more sense, I guess...
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016


Debate: Foreign Cyber Attacks

'My son is 10 and he is so good at computers'
posted by panaceanot at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apparently we're now talking about ISIS but I didn't hear Lester ask a question about it.

"We should have taken the oil!" excellent.
posted by petebest at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"trying to take out ISIS a looong time"

Yeah like 4 years!
posted by numaner at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016


I think you'll agree, Lester, cuz I said it to you once...
posted by wallabear at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's son will be the next head of cyber security. Tiffany though, she gets nothing.
posted by arcticseal at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump: Had we taken the oil...

Luckily, oil is super easy to take, and theft of natural resources is not a war crime.
posted by palindromic at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [46 favorites]


Holt: Tell us specifically how you would prevent home grown attacks.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


oh, my god, i cannot wait to see how the so-called undecideds are reacting to this.
posted by palomar at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Donald continuously lamenting past mistakes and the nation's present condition. Very scant on the solutions and its future.
posted by Panthalassa at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is now advocating that we should have taken the oil and now ISIS has the oil all over the place.
posted by winna at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016


my stream just died. has anyone mentioned OBL yet?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016


The "we should have taken the oil" nonsense..
posted by tetsuo at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016


>I am so sorry

No forgiveness.

He keeps talking about how "we need to do cyber" and every time I've ever heard cyber as a verb before this it referred to cyber sex and I'm just like "shut the fuck up Donald SHUT THE FUCK UP" even more than usual.

Thank the nine divines I'm drunk while watching this.

"Take the oil" oh and he advocated another war crime before I had time to hit post what a shocker.
posted by fomhar at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's still denying the Iraq thing? Guys I'm starting to think Donald's lost the plot a little.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Somone has trained Trump on how to roll back the 'Obama founded ISIS' nonsense talking point.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is such a petulant child.
posted by joedan at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's talking about "taking the oil" again? What a fucking moron.
posted by zardoz at 7:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"We should have taken the oil."

Not sure that pillaging the country that you invade is a good way to leave it stable.
posted by dazed_one at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


all my life I've watched her fight Isis!
posted by vrakatar at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


btw, the Trump folks deleted the tweet about global warming being a Chinese hoax in the middle of the debate after Trump claimed he never said it.
posted by zachlipton at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [74 favorites]


When I'm elected President we're going to have the best cyber. Just, completely amazing cyber. You know what else? We're going to make everyone else pay our cyber. Believe me, our cyber is going to be so good, you're going to be tired of getting such good cyber.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


"Donald, you do know the oil is in the ground?"

(She also got him to double down on the opposing-Iraq-war lie.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ooh, she's baiting him on NATO now.
posted by palindromic at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Intelligence surge". Ugh. Can we not?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Which candidate would you prefer to invite to your Thanksgiving dinner?
posted by Short Attention Sp at 7:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


er, except now the tweet about deleting the tweet has been deleted. Not sure what that means.
posted by zachlipton at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes, Hillary mentioned taking out OBL, but didn't dwell on it.
posted by janell at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2016


I can't disagree with him on the vacuum creating ISIS but he can't also say she's been fighting ISIS her "entire life"
posted by AFABulous at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2016


So glad she is talking about not alienating Muslim communities.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


well chat finally died

thanks obama
posted by vuron at 7:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


btw, the Trump folks deleted the tweet about global warming being a Chinese hoax in the middle of the debate after Trump claimed he never said it.

That, I'm afraid, was a lie. The tweet is still up.
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


and certainly cyber is one of them."

"In summary cyber is a land of contrasts."
posted by drezdn at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh boy Trump is "taking the oil again."

Clinton: Fact checkers need to be working overtime. Donald Trump was for [Donald: Wrong] the war [Donald: Wrong] in Iraq [Donald: Wrong.]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ooh, I bet that reference to NATO was a shot across Trump's bow.

...definitely, because she's talking about Trump alienating Muslim allies.
posted by Gelatin at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016


er, except now the tweet about deleting the tweet has been deleted. Not sure what that means.


Someone's getting sacked.
posted by curious nu at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Clinton: Pointing out GBW made the withdrawl from Iraq, not Obama.

Then pointing out Lester's question was about what to do in America. We need more intelligence from EU, Middle east, we need to work with our allies. NATO. Muslim nations in the middle east, DJT has consistently insulted them. They're on the front lines that can provide information with us, they need to have close working relationships not pushed away as Trump's rhetoric would mess up.

Trump: Iran deal was a mess. They're going to reunion everything. With NATO, I haven't given lots of thoughts to it, but many aren't paying their dues.

(Yeah, haven't given a lot of thought to it)
posted by petebest at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]




This global warming hoax tweet is still live. Maybe they undeleted it or something? Or it was never deleted. Sorry.
posted by zachlipton at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016


Donald: "I haven't put a lot of thought to NATO, but let me tell what I think anyway"
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump: I haven't thought a lot about NATO, but 28 of those countries aren't paying their fair share.

Donald Trump, in response to Clinton's assertion that he doesn't pay federal taxes: "I was smart."
posted by mudpuppie at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


"I haven't given a lot of thought to NATO…"

I'll be Clinton has.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


No one focuses on TERA anymore tbh.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


NATO is the longest military alliance in history?
posted by rosswald at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016


He's expanding on his idea of charging countries for NATO support
posted by Tarumba at 7:18 PM on September 26, 2016


Oh good, NATO. Here's a corner of your grave you haven't dug out very cleanly Donald, surely you can dig deeper over there, please go ahead.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


We are getting a neat little synopsis on how international politics is hard and complex from Secretary Clinton.

Donald's now critiquing NATO for not being strong on terror.
posted by winna at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


The camera needs to pull back a bit so we can see Donald's tiny hands waving.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016


Terra division.
posted by zardoz at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


One thing about Donald Trimp's comment about us living in a 3rd world country is resonating with me: He's the candidate for president for a major party. A major party candidate is recommending that, against the wishes of the occupied nation and against international law, the US should have stayed in Iraq in force and confiscated their natural resources. Troops that were only there because of a war his party started.

I've got a petty, wannabe warlord as a viable candidate for running my country. Yes, that makes me feel like I'm living ina 3rd world country.

I live in Atlanta though, so my airport is pretty great
posted by Panjandrum at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


Why is he going back to the NATO thing???? That was an entire news cycle you lost!
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016


Chat still lives! come back!
posted by litleozy at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016


I have given lots of thought to NATO

#1

#2


And #2

Numerous. I was very strong. Major terrorer division. But I'm all for nato but they have to pay but believe me and we have to knock the hell out of Isis and believe me they were the ones and they couldn't believe it.
posted by ian1977 at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


So she consistently calls him "Donald", and he consistently calls her "Secretary Clinton". What is the dominance-politics implication of this?
posted by jackbishop at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


He's talking in circles about NATO.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump: "They . do. not. focus. on Terra!" (talking about NATO)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016


"Notice Trump sniffing all the time. Coke user?"
daaaaamn doctor dean.
posted by changeling at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


Following along on Twitter as well. Lots of comments about sniffing and cocaine. Including from Howard Dean.
posted by vac2003 at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh god please let that Frank Luntz thing be representative. He is an evil, evil man. But he knows how to focus group.
posted by Justinian at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


NATO is opening up a MAJAH TERRAHA office, which was because of what I said. We have to knock the hell out of ISIS fast. It was created by Obama and Clinton.
posted by petebest at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016


Surprised Clinton mentioned Libya, a big black-mark on her tenure, but Trump misses that opportunity
posted by cacofonie at 7:19 PM on September 26, 2016


"Donald, you do know the oil is in the ground?"

Did she say that?
posted by tetsuo at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016


Metafilter died briefly too. The debate is killing us in more ways than just the alcohol poisoning.
posted by corb at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


The betting markets are fairly noisy so I wouldn't read too much into them, but Trump's odds have fallen significantly since the debate started.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Holt: The last question is for you Mister Trump... Why don't you call your daughter Tiffany more often?
posted by drezdn at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


He's talking about Tara. He's a yuge Gone with the Wind fan.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


DON'T WAIT FOR THE TRANSLATION! ANSWER ME NOW!!!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]




The Chuck Tingle is live-tweeting the debate and it is a future Storify of manic surrealist glory.
1st falter of night from CLINTONS as she mistakes Tromps bubbling void speech as rational human thought and not the screams of 1000 crabs— Chuck Tingle (@ChuckTingle) September 27, 2016
DOMALD TROMP: "i once opened a club and human beings were allowed not just crabs, i swear". moderator declines to interject with fact check— Chuck Tingle (@ChuckTingle) September 27, 2016
posted by nicebookrack at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [47 favorites]


Clinton's poker face as Trump argues with Holt is pure gold
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


"I did not support the war in I-RACK. That is a mainstream media nonsense put out by her!"

[real]
posted by iffthen at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary is literally looking directly at the camera like out of The Office.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [97 favorites]


I think Lester Holt is likely to get good reviews for his performance tonight.
posted by uosuaq at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's debating Lester!?
posted by wallabear at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


TURN OFF HIS MIC.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I said idk maybe" lol
posted by acidic at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He keeps calling her "the secretary" which is actually a pretty nasty underhanded gender attack.
posted by winna at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [33 favorites]


Hillary keeps Jim-from-the-Office-ing at me and I <3 it.
posted by goHermGO at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Wow, Trump is completely breaking down. He's just rambling. What the hell is he even talking about now?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jesus fuck. I'm renegging.

Trump is shouting at the world without a functional weirding module.

Wow the Iraq War meltdown by Trump.

!!love Hillary's facial responses on the split screen!!
posted by porpoise at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh boy, can we get a lifeline to Sean Hannity.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


LESTER, YOU HAVE THE POWER OF SPEECH, USE IT.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Tripling down on I Did Not Support the War. That's a mainstream media lie! She set them up with me!

Lester: the record shows differently

Trump I did lots of interviews. the one with Hannity said you were against the war. But nobody wants to call Hannity. He used to have fights with me, and I understand that but not so much.
posted by petebest at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Dude, Lester Holt looks like he's shaking as he tries to fact check trump and ask him legit questions while getting interrupted by Trumps word diarrhea.
posted by windbox at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's impressive that technology has reached the point where they can digitally rotoscope out the giant cocaine blob hanging from Trump's nose during a live broadcast.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump @ Iraq War: I said I don't know. Maybe. Who knows.
posted by curious nu at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Has anyone called Hannity? He's so shy!
posted by ian1977 at 7:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Donald is also Hannity's yenta.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


This fucking denial of supporting the Iraq war is pissing me off too much.
posted by palindromic at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016


Lester Holt holds Trump in contempt. He's trying to hide it and is being as fair as he can, but it's clear. He holds Trump in contempt.
posted by Justinian at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hillary is giggling as Trump keeps flailing around about Sean Hannity and it is pretty great.
posted by winna at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sean Hannity: Fact checker.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


You could hear people laughing when he said he has a better temperament.
posted by girlmightlive at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [35 favorites]


Trump: I have a winning temperament, I know how to win, she doesn't...
posted by palindromic at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016


Holt's letting Trump steamroll the debate.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now it's the Temperament Movement
posted by ian1977 at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I have a much better temperament than she does"

LOL! Up is down!
posted by triggerfinger at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm having Trump hors d'oeuvres: baloney and cheese on Ritz crackers.

And tea. Because this is definitely a situation that calls for tea.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"This club has EVERYTHING. Nestled in a cozy section of Florida, it has 6' oil portraits of Donald Trump, enough gold plate to see your reflection everywhere, people from all over the world making crap wages, and a 400 pound man on a bed upon mobile bedposts...that's when a midget is clad in the faux-wood grain seen in older station wagons and they move together to the rhythm of the ocean waves." /Stefon
posted by sara is disenchanted at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [31 favorites]


I have much better temperament!
*ROOM LAUGHS AT HIM*
Wait!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [43 favorites]


Trump shooting himself in the foot.
posted by glhaynes at 7:22 PM on September 26, 2016


He doesn't even know that post-'Phew!' laughter was against him.
posted by palindromic at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


DJT: "I HAVE A WINNING TEMPERAMENT!" *stomps feet turns blue*
posted by Westringia F. at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Republican Twitter is calling it for Hillary. Trump is not playing well even with people who already are predisposed to hate Clinton.
posted by corb at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [76 favorites]


"I have a much better temperament."

*Audience howls with laughter*.
posted by zardoz at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


He's on about his temperament.
She is going to rip out his spine and nail it on the wall.
posted by phunniemee at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh my god, audible laughter when Trump said he has a better temperament than Hillary.
posted by yasaman at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


This might be the first presidential debate where one candidate just answers "I can't even."
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Why are they not cutting his mic when he talks over Lester?

And WTF? I have much better judgment than her? WTF WTF WTF?
posted by instamatic at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"behind the blue screen i don't know who you was talking to secretary clinton but you were totally out of control!!!"

wtf???
posted by acidic at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton "Wheew! O.K.!"

Fucking Golden.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [52 favorites]


Oooo a little rebellion in the Trump ranks. He is taking on Lester on whether or not he was for the war with Iraq. He is blathering. Just talking over Lester Holt and telling some story about Sean Hannity calling him yesterday and saying "You were against the war." Well that is settled then. Sean Hannity is the last authority.


Oh Wow. "I have a better temperament than Secretary Clinton. I know how to win." What the hell does winning have to do with temperament?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016


Lester, you took a while to warm up, but you're all right. I am, unfortunately, seriously concerned for your safety and your job at this point though.
posted by zachlipton at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump: I also have a much better temperment than she has.

Clinton: [sunny, sunny smile]
posted by Gelatin at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


Trump says he has a winning temperament. Why has no one told him this is not a winning statement.

Hillary responded with 'woo! okay!'
posted by winna at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I love the "whoo!" Hope it doesn't hurt her because she's a woman and joked
posted by Countess Elena at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Hillary looks like she's feeling confident.
posted by uosuaq at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


So I haven't seen the thread while the debate's been going on, but I just wanted to report in that I nearly choked on a sriracha pea when Trump called his temprament his best feature and far better than Hillary's.
posted by indubitable at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump in full-on garbage fire failure mode, now.
posted by joedan at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald, you were so close. You could have gone ahead and sealed the deal by calling her hysterical. Did somebody coach you not to say that? But you were SO CLOSE.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary: OK! *literally shimmies*
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]


Whoo! yells Hillary. Fuck. Yes.
posted by zardoz at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


TEMPERMENT

She's been in his head since Sacremento
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


My ears are tired of hearing him shout. I can't pay attention to what he's saying because it's just BLAH BLAH BLAH I AM LOUDER THAN YOU.
posted by INFJ at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


OMG "WOO, OKAY!" IS TOMORROW'S BIGGEST MEME
posted by entropicamericana at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


I love, love love her reaction to Trump's temperament comment - just waiting until her turn to speak, then smiling, letting his behavior speak for itself, and continuing with her message.
posted by samthemander at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Woo, okay!" - Clinton

Yes, that's exactly how I feel.

Oh yes, quoting NATO rules! I hope there are more foreign policy questions in the other two debates, so that she can show off her secretary of state bona fides.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


So basically the whole world just got a lesson in how women are continually mansplained by incompetent men who think they are the smartest person in the room.
posted by vuron at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [107 favorites]


That NATO 9/11 quip was pretty good
posted by rosswald at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Whew." Moment of the debate.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


He's getting pissed, that temperament remark was a really, really, really bad move. Hard to imagine worse timing. This is truly amazing.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Someone has already created 400 Pound Hacker (@400poundhacker) on Twitter
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]


serious, i need an animated gif of that. complete with the shoulder shimmy.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Thank you Hillary for setting the record straight on NATO and the only time they've invoked Article 5.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


'I think my strongest asset, by far, is my temperament' says the guy who defended his penis size on national television
posted by beerperson at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]


His counter to Clinton bringing up the "blow up an Iranian ship" comment was "that would not start a war." Jesus Christ.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


He is being baited by Hillary saying he was easily taunted.
posted by winna at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


So basically the whole world just got a lesson in how women are continually mansplained by incompetent men who think they are the smartest person in the room.

That's one of the best things that could come out of this. Let's hope it actually does. I'm not all that optimistic, sadly.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


Re: nuclear war in Southeast Asia, Trump: "That's life."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


To be clear, what I posted earlier about Trump's staff deleting the China climate change hoax tweet appears to have been a hoax. We regret the error. The tweet is still up so we can all revel in its wrongness, and his claim he never said it.
posted by zachlipton at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump: Sinking an Iranian boat wouldn't start a war.

National security is not a good subject for him.
posted by Gelatin at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


Yes, thank you Hillary for bringing up the nuclear threat.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Geez is there still 30 minutes of this
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


'Your' president?

He's your president too you human scab.
posted by ian1977 at 7:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [62 favorites]




Clinton destroyed Trump in this debate. Anyone who supports him after seeing this is lost to all reason.
posted by Justinian at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [50 favorites]


Our president. Not your president.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yes nukes! Tweets! Arguing back and forth about whether ithat meme is accurate.
posted by instamatic at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016


Casual global warming slam.
posted by yellowbinder at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's losing his voice, or his mic is failing.
posted by vrakatar at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"...what your president thinks"

HE'S YOUR PRESIDENT, TOO.
posted by LynnDee at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: I have much better temperament to her (crowd laughs) I saw a blue screen the other day where Secretary Clinton was talking to someone, I don't know who she was talking about but she was OUTTA CONTROL I was like who has that kind of temperament.

Lester: Secretary Clinton?

Clinton: Whoo! Okay! (crowd laughs) . . . sooooo . lets start with what NATO is . . . (smart explanation of what NATO has done for us and how political diplomacy works). Trump says he's going to blow up the Iranian sailors who are taunting us. That's not good judgement and not the right temperamant.

He doesn't care if other nations got nuclear weapons. It's been US Policy to do everything we could to reduce nuclear weapons. He said east asia was okay to get nukes (Trump" WRONG!") the east asian area is particularly troubleome. Shouldn't let a guy upset over tweets get the nuclear codes.
posted by petebest at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


His response to her well thought-out points is to call Germany and Japan freeloaders?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's calling her "man who can be baited with a tweet" joke "a little old" ... REALLY? After calling up history from the 90s?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Team Hillary tweeted out the "not have his hands" line within 5 seconds of her saying it, so Tromp has a point about it being a well-worn line.
posted by sideshow at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016


There have been far too many times in the past hour I have yelled at the television "What the hell is he talking about? I lost it..."
posted by danapiper at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump to Japan: "This is a really nice country you've got here. Shame if something were to happen to it."
edit: fake
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


I like B-52s, asshole, they work just fine.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


'We're providing a tremendous service (NATO) and we're losing a fortune.'

Is there a single terrible gaffe he has made this election that he hasn't doubled down on in this debate?
posted by winna at 7:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Trump voters are pinning their hopes on people tuning out of the debate after the first 30 minutes.

When do we get post-debate polls? I really want a shift in those 538 numbers.

Actually what I really want is Johnson to get a post-debate bump of Trump votes fleeing, getting him into the debate, where he proceeds to use the attacks Clinton can't without looking shrill.
posted by corb at 7:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


He is literally making no sense whatsoever and slurring his words. What is happening?
posted by Westringia F. at 7:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "China should go into North Korea."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton is going to explain first use.
posted by maryr at 7:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy shit, what does he expect anyone to do about North Korea? There's nothing to be done in the current climate.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anybody else want Clinton to simply say, "Donald, please tell us what Lester Holt means when he says that President Obama considered changing our first-use doctrine. I cede my time." and watch him implode.

I mean, she shouldn't do that but it would be hilarious.
posted by Justinian at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [46 favorites]


I'm pretty sure he's now labeled four things the 'worst deal of all time.'
posted by palindromic at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


North Korea, we're doing nothing there! We should do nothing as China does something there?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016


Ha! Lester Holt asked if Trump supports the current policy of first use of nuclear weapons.

He did not elaborate on what that policy is.

Trump responds with word salad.
posted by Gelatin at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


The way Trump uses "nuclear" as a free standing noun bugs the shit out of me. Not enough to start a nuclear, or alter our nuclear with Russia, or nuclear with Iran, but certainly enough to make me go ballistic.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


Saying you have the best temperament ever is a bit like saying you're the least racist person ever, it---

He did?

Well of course he did.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump doesn't know what our policy on first strike is.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump says that China should go into North Korea.

I'm just going to let that lie there.
posted by winna at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump @ climate change: not the biggest threat "like your president thinks".

I feel like Trump is a character written by Sorkin's understudy.

This is so fucked up.
posted by curious nu at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Saudi Arabia is not actually a NATO member.
posted by zarq at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump clearly knows nothing about the nuclear posture.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He is literally making no sense whatsoever and slurring his words. What is happening?

This jumbled word-salad is par for the course for Trump.
posted by joedan at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump apparently thinks B-52s are our latest bombers.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


He is literally making no sense whatsoever and slurring his words. What is happening?

He's decompensating
posted by nathan_teske at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


'China should go into North Korea.'

l o l
posted by Panthalassa at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Somewhere, right now, a single tear traces a lonely path down Fred Schneider's cheek.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


If she doesn't hit him on B-52s saving money, she'll miss a huge opportunity.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016


I don't want a president that talks about deals.
posted by valkane at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016


WTF is he rambling about?
posted by zardoz at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


On the plus side, Trump has not said 'nucular.'
posted by palindromic at 7:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


The shoulder wiggle
posted by glhaynes at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [57 favorites]


I can't tell which Trump remarks in quotations are real and which are jokes, c'mon guys!
posted by tetsuo at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I look forward to the Buzzfeed listacle of all the worst deals America has ever made according to Trump.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


B-52s are the "sharks" of military death machines. Peak of evolution, no need to improve.
posted by sideshow at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [29 favorites]


International Relations Word Salad. I need to see this on the menu of a trendy restaurant this week.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: "This is one of the worst deals made in the history of the world."

I dunno. Chamberlain and appeasement have to be up there somewhere yes?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


People in best bar ever are actually outright shouting at the screen.

I know that the mods have been encouraging us to specify what we're talking about, but the thing is, they've been doing this for just about anything that Trump says because everything he said has turned out to need heckling.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Words matter. We have mutual defense treaties.

That's being a grown-up. Damn right.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


Everything Trump says is like World Leader fanfic.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


She's already president!
posted by valkane at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: Nuclear is very important but these countries aren't paying us. They're not paying us. Russia has a great military. Ours sucks. The Iran deal is horrible, why didn't you add things about Yemen, I asked Kerry about that.

400Million on cash, it was 1.7 billion in cash, i guess that was for hostages. It's the worst deal ever, all they have to do is get nuclear weapons. Netanyahu.

Clinton: Words matter when you run for president, and they really matter when you ARE president. I want to assure Japan and elsewhere that we have treaties and we will honor them. Many leaders are worried, I've talked with a number of them, but I want to tell them on behalf of myself and a moajority of the american people that our word is good.
posted by petebest at 7:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [81 favorites]


oh snap, she's speaking to and reassuring
the world as president elect. beautiful
posted by klarck at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [98 favorites]


Oh this is beautiful. She brought up "Mutual Defense" to everyone but Trump. Straight to the camera. That's a sharp knife to his ego.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Is there a single terrible gaffe he has made this election that he hasn't doubled down on in this debate?

Well, none of the people who might vote for him will care about that, so why not?
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016


He is literally making no sense whatsoever and slurring his words. What is happening?

His cocktail of uppers is wearing down and he needs a booster snort.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I met with Bibi Netenyahu the other night and he is not a happy camper."
posted by Flashman at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


the nuclear, the cyber

make america make
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


Iranian deal: Trump won't say what he would do. Like his plan to defeat ISIS, he says his plan is secret but his only secret is that he has no plan!
posted by petebest at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump thinks we should let China go into North Korea.

I'm glad that Secretary Clinton is now assuring our allies that we intend to honor our obligations but I'm still transfixed by that statement.
posted by winna at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Bullies abroad or at home. Damn straight.
posted by ian1977 at 7:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Please God let her end on this world leadership note.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's statements are like watching two kids in a trenchcoat sneak onto a debate stage and pretend they have something important to say. So precocious!
posted by teponaztli at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I definitely think the media is going to say she lost at least one no matter what happens, and I'd prefer it be this one. But she's wiping the floor with him.
posted by zutalors! at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton's message to America's allies was a beautifully well played hand. Just exquisite.
posted by dazed_one at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


"The only secret is he has no plan!"

YES the truest thing that was said all night.

She is ending on a great note.

But ugh, why is Lester letting Trump close out every segment? Ugh, Lester, just stop. Someone, for the love of god, please cut his mic.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ok, I've had restraint so far tonight. Not yelled at the screen once. Saying the US is falling behind in military technology to fucking Russia was what finally set me off.
posted by honestcoyote at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wait, he just encouraged China to invade Korea? Seriously?
posted by octothorpe at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Man. I just don't think this is what those guys had in mind when they wrote the Constitution.
posted by something something at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Stand up to bullies, abroad or at home."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


How is Holt allowing him to bully this much talking time? He's not even saying anything
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Come on Lester. Little backbone please.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]




I would like him to describe paying countries as 'tributes' and America as 'the empire' so we can cut through the bullshit.
posted by palindromic at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Japan, we're not going to protect you unless Carrier air conditioning returns to Cleveland.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


So anyone with a grip on world affairs clearly will vote for Clinton. The problem is all those other voters.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]



This is like watching two kids in a trenchcoat sneak onto a debate stage and pretend they have something important to say. So precocious!


That's not very nice to two kids in a trenchcoat.
posted by zutalors! at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


"words matter." Jerry gets a shoutout!
posted by mwhybark at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016


I really look forward to the spin from the Trump side. I'm a huge fan of creativity.
posted by uosuaq at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


HE IS ASKING ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL LOOK OMG
posted by palindromic at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I cannot believe he's doubling down on only defending Japan if they pay us. I think that's one of the most unbelievable things to ever be said in the history of a presidential debate.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


'We're providing a tremendous service (NATO) and we're losing a fortune.'

Not watching, so idk if this has been pointed out: as far as I know, the only time NATO's mutual defense clause was ever formally invoked was on OUR behalf after 9/11. On that basis, WE'RE the ones who owe something to the rest of NATO.

Have I said fuck Donald Trump already?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Lester challenging Trump on his comments about Clinton not having "a Presidential look."

Man, I'm so sorry I ever doubted you.
posted by zachlipton at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


How much does 1.7 billion in cash weigh, Donald? You've got tremendous amazing business skills, you should know that off the top of your head.
posted by XMLicious at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016


Did he just channel Carl Sagan?

"BEELYUNS AND BEELYUNS"
posted by entropicamericana at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016


Trump: Hillary wants you to go to the website to read about how to defeat ISIS but she started ISIS. And as for Japan, I want to help them but we're losing billions and billions of dollars. She doesn't ahve basic ability. All of the things she could take care of could have been fixed in the last ten years.
posted by petebest at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holt: "Mr. Trump, why do you hate women?"
posted by leotrotsky at 7:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


But ugh, why is Lester letting Trump close out every segment? Ugh, Lester, just stop. Someone, for the love of god, please cut his mic.

Watch this dynamic at your job. It happens all the time when women are in meetings.
posted by winna at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [66 favorites]


Stamina! I could do deals allllllll night long. Amazing all night stamina deals.
posted by ian1977 at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


But ugh, why is Lester letting Trump close out every segment?

Honestly, at the beginning it became clear that Trump was going to try to butt in with the last word no matter what, so letting him hang himself seems like a decent resolution.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He seems to think she was Secretary of State for ten years because she did nothing about ISIS for ten years. Or her whole life.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"To be president of this country, you need tremendous stamina."

Please stop.
posted by Rangi at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016


"I don't believe she has the stamina," Trump says, while Clinton smiles radiantly.
posted by mochapickle at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [35 favorites]


Clear demonstration of his racism, temper, ineptitude and misogyny. Slam dunk for Hillary.
posted by arcticseal at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


She oughta mention how she doesn't have to sleep on her own damn property every night
posted by Countess Elena at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Stamina? This MUST be the even.
posted by porpoise at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


The audience just went all Apollo Theatre at the '11 hours of testimony' stamina line.
posted by palindromic at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


The crowd really needs to stay quiet as agreed.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"...then he can talk to be about stamina."
*WILD APPLAUSE FROM AUDIENCE*
posted by leotrotsky at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Not watching, so idk if this has been pointed out: as far as I know, the only time NATO's mutual defense clause was ever invoked was on OUR behalf after 9/11. On that basis, WE'RE the ones who owe something to the rest of NATO.

Clinton actually responded with this.
posted by XMLicious at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


Lester, stick up for yourself. Asshole.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lester: You said she doesn't look presidential,

Trump: She doesn't have the stamina.

Clinton: when he travels to 112 countries and negotiates peace deals or spends 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee he can talk to me about stamina (crowd cheers)
posted by petebest at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [128 favorites]


"How much are you proposing cutting the military, Donald?" [fake, she should say]
posted by Gelatin at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016


They spent most of their campaign money putting Trump people in the crowd, as far as I can tell.
posted by koeselitz at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, he has lost the room HARD.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Secretary Clinton rolls out all of her accomplishments as Secretary and says that once he's done that he can talk about stamina.
posted by winna at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary seals the deal and wins my heart with the hours of congressional testimony stamina statement. I'm done.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


HRC: "This is a man who has called women pigs, slobs and dogs."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [38 favorites]


"She could've defeated ISIS by never having it get going in the first place" ...
"We cannot be the policemen of the world... when they're not paying us..."

He doesn't keep up on his Phil Ochs does he?

And he's back on "she doesn't have the stamina to be president" - "you have to be able to negotiate, with Japan, with Saudi Arabia... I don't believe Hilary has the stamina"

Hilary: As soon as he travels to 128 countries, negotiates peace deals, spends 11 hours in front of a congressional committee - he can talk about stamina.

Trump: Hilary has experience, but it's bad experience.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


while Clinton smiles radiantly

Because she saw him handing it to her, on a silver charger, white towel draped over his arm.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


Yo but seriously, I think Trump does not understand his remarks have been recorded and videotaped for years.
posted by palindromic at 7:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [46 favorites]


What the hell is wrong with the crowd cheering frantically when he ran her down. Why are they not kicking them out.
posted by winna at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"When he travels to 112 countries, he can talk to me about stamina."
posted by Snarl Furillo at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


It was their money!!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016


I definitely think the media is going to say she lost at least one no matter what happens, and I'd prefer it be this one. But she's wiping the floor with him.

There is a chance Trump will walk away from the other two debates, after the beating he's taken here. For sure he'll blame it on "that Democrat" Lester Holt and the "crooked media," with maybe a half dozen Jewish names thrown in for good measure.
posted by duffell at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


And, winna, yes she did.
posted by Gelatin at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016


> This jumbled word-salad is par for the course for Trump.

Yabut this seems worse somehow?

Wait, let's check....
M-x spook _

tempest SRI Crypto AG NWO military $400 million in gold bullion MD4
Cocaine Sundevil FSF Lexis-Nexis Ron Brown Commecen number key Serbian
enigma ASLET bank Skipjack corporate security Dateline Soviet military
Merlin SHA Aladdin defense information warfare condor eavesdropping
Cocaine
_
Yep, emacs is making more sense.
posted by Westringia F. at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


The audience is on her side.

Also: Rosie O'Donnell deserves it? WTF
posted by palindromic at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


"Hillary's be hitting me with tremendous commercials."

Holy Shit, I agree with Trump.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Clinton: this is a man who has called women pigs, slobs, and dog, and someone who has said pregancy is an inconveneice to employers, who said women shouldn't get paid as much as men. He called a beauty contest woman "Miss PIggy" and then "a housekeeper" because she's latina and she just became a US Citizen and she's going to vote in this election (cheers)
posted by petebest at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [63 favorites]


"You need stamina. Tremendous stamina, the best stamina. And I guarantee you there's no problem there. There's no problem."
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


They cheered for his "bad experience" thing, I dunno if he lost the room
posted by Countess Elena at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: She's not being nice to me
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Not sure those 11 hours were her finest hour though....
posted by cacofonie at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016


YES HILLARY calling him out on his horrific misogyny! Thank you! Oh wow, she really nailed him on the beauty pageant thing.

Best moment of the night. Thank you, Secretary Clinton! Thank you!
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


His... his defense is that he... WANTED to say mean things about Hillary... but didn't?

Give the man a medal.
posted by koeselitz at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]


woah, good for you donald, taking the high road. so honorable.
posted by Glibpaxman at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, you know, as long as she's nice about it.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Rosie O'Donnell deserves it! okay?
posted by Tarumba at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


LESTER, HOW LONG IS 10 SECONDS IN YOUR WORLD?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


They've lost control of the crowd altogether because they just cheered for a slam Clinton made about his views of women.
posted by winna at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I am so angry at Lester Holt. This is not even remotely moderating. This is...nothing.
posted by curious nu at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


I was that kid in high school who didn't read the book before writing the book report, and this is exactly what Trump sounds like. "Holden Callfield thinks rye is important, because rye is a very important grain, and I think rye bread is very important for all of us and Holden Callfield knows that."

F- See me after class, Donald
posted by teponaztli at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [91 favorites]


He's patting himself on the back for restraining himself from saying something terrible about her family? Is this even real
posted by triggerfinger at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Clinton's "Mirrors" ad about things Trump has said about women.
posted by fomhar at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump, in paraphrase: "I could have said worse things about her."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016


'It's not nice and I don't deserve it' is Trump projection par excellence.
posted by palindromic at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


There has been no more unconvincing sentence this whole night than "Mr. Trump, just ten seconds." Trump spends the next minute talking to Lester about how not-nice Clinton is for running ads and how implicitly amazing he is for not saying something very mean that he was going to say about the Clinton family.
posted by cortex at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also Hillary wasn't nice :(
posted by Tarumba at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bring back Jim Lehrer to do the pre-debate audience scolding.
posted by roll truck roll at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]



Not sure those 11 hours were her finest hour though....


She got a lot of approval for that, maybe not from whoever you were listening to though.
posted by zutalors! at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The state of America in 2016: "Will you accept the will of the voters?" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask in a Presidential debate.
posted by zachlipton at 7:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [58 favorites]


Omg CUT HIS MIC when he ignores the moderation!
posted by instamatic at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


DT's victim complex is one of his most identifying features.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"I was going to say something extremely rough to Hillary and her family, and I said to myself, I just can't do it."

So... congratulations, you have boundaries?
posted by Rangi at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Answer the fucking questions, Donald.
posted by zarq at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lester had to actually ask the candidates if they will support the election outcome.

I do not want to live in the world of The Man in the High Castle.
posted by winna at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


So that's a "No" then, Mr. Trump?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Will you except the results of this election?"

Oh god, Lester, what a stupid final question.

Actually, she did a good job answering it. And at least it helped someone fill in the "make America great again" bingo square...twice.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


The crowd there is stacked for him, and he's good with crowds. Crowds don't ultimately mean much - there are more voters than would ever fit in a crowd - but I hope this crowd doesn't telegraph their excitement for Trump to the viewers at home.
posted by koeselitz at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016


THAT'S ALL FOLKS
posted by Panthalassa at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think Trump does not understand his remarks have been recorded and videotaped for years.

Trump plays to the room; he really is oblivious to the wider audience. That's why he's arguing with the moderator - he thinks he's fighting against Hilary, and trying to beat the mod who's "supporting her." He can't grasp the idea that he's trying to persuade people he can't see and hear right now.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


What did Rosie O'Donnell do to him? I vaguely remember them snarking at each other over twitter.
posted by lovecrafty at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: I could say something mean about Rosie O'Donnell but I wont' (???)

She's spent millions of negative ads on me, it's not nice.

Lester: one of you will not win, will you respect that

Clinton: I will support the democracy, and sometimes you win sometimes you lose, but the voters its up to you so I hope you get and vote as though your future depends on it and so it does

Trump: I want to make America great again. Maybe people press the wrong button, but these people we want to deport turn into becoming citizens. I want to MAGA, if Clinton wins I will absolutely support her.
posted by petebest at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's whining about negative ads? What a loser.
posted by Gelatin at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


At least he got to "If she wins I'll support her." Eventually.
posted by Justinian at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Will you respect the results of the election?

No, no, let me tell you how awful America is ONE LAST TIME.
posted by instamatic at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Did the Lincoln Douglas debates mention shock jocks and comedians?
posted by any major dude at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


If that wasn't a win for Hillary I don't know what one looks like.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [53 favorites]


For the record, his tie is way too long.
posted by palindromic at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


Whew made it out alive, chicken was yummy, smoke break outside refill woo!
posted by vrakatar at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"That concludes our debate for this evening."

Finally.
posted by Rangi at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holt: Will you accept the outcome of the election?
Trump: Rambles about making America great again.

But eventually says he would. So we will see.
posted by mochapickle at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016


Way to keep everyone in suspense about accepting the outcome, Donnie.
posted by charred husk at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is there shouting from the crowd? What's going on?
posted by koeselitz at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016


"she doesn't have the stamina" YOU'RE THE ONE THAT'S BEEN DRINKING WATER NONSTOP
posted by numaner at 7:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


So Hillary won! IMO
posted by Tarumba at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


End of Debate. They shake hands, House lights come up, shaking hands with the moderator, supporters come up on stage, there's Bill, Chelsea, Don Jr. Ivanka.

Bill's working the crowd. Hehe.
posted by petebest at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016


I think we can all come together, Trump supporters and Clinton supporters, and agree that everyone in that audience needs to shut the eff up.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


I really, really wish that Clinton had sweetly pointed out that "all my ads simply quote you directly. Interesting you think that they're mean."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [87 favorites]


Oh Bill is there come on bubba punch donnie in the face FOR ME!
posted by vrakatar at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump stands on stage and points to people. Clinton works the audience.
posted by zachlipton at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Honestly, Lester's free rein worked against Trump.
posted by klarck at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Some Go Donald, We Love You action, followed by same for Hillary. Trump slow to get to the handshake with Lester. General gladhanding with families now.
posted by cortex at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016


Chuck Todd: "This is the most abnormal event I have ever witnessed." Goes so far as to call it surreal.
posted by mochapickle at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


Clintons are shaking hands at the front row, Trumps are standing on stage waiving and walking offstage.
posted by petebest at 7:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I love how Hillary is going around and shaking hands while Trump just stands there on the stage.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


I'm okay with how that went.
posted by uosuaq at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]




Bloomberg seems to be calling it for Hillary but they are saying it like "He didn't do bad, not that bad." What are these people drinking???
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


They should do one debate in front of Arsenio Hall's 90s era audience.
posted by drezdn at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Also: Clinton is up at the front of the stage talking to the audience and engaging them. Trump is in the background just waving. What's the logic behind that? Is there a strategy, or does he just not want to talk with them for some reason?
posted by Deathalicious at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"You could argue Hillary Clinton was overprepared, her opening statement had 15 policy proposals" -- oh no, she has policy proposals! Compared to Donald Trump, who was "incoherent". So, they both have flaws! /s
posted by Rangi at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [49 favorites]


Crowds are moving to the front of the stage to shake hands with the Clintons. Trumps are offstage, presumably back in the limo.
posted by petebest at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016


Hillary still working the crowd, Trump & family dashing as usual.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016


Did we just go the whole debate without talking about a wall or a Muslim ban?
posted by zachlipton at 7:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Thirsty Trump!

Why you so thirsty Donnie??!?!
posted by ian1977 at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Where's the good post-debate commentary? I'm still on C-SPAN.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


And I turn back to the game just in time to watch the Pirates lose again. I hate you, 2016.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016


Bill Clinton is a completely next level schmoozer though it's hard to think of someone better at it than he is.
posted by vuron at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Bloomberg commentators saying the best thing you can say about Trump's performance is that "the bottom did not drop out." The other: "I don't see how anybody could say Donald Trump made progress toward becoming President of the United States tonight."

And they just said he was out of his element! I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


No Rachel Maddow, the first applause was not about emails. Get your shit together.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016


Hillary clearly won - but did Donald lose
posted by rosswald at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Trump leave already?
posted by maryr at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016


Bill steps back to let Hillary get in there with the crowd.
posted by zutalors! at 7:42 PM on September 26, 2016


for the record: Donald and Rosie
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016


The cheering really makes it sound unprofessional. Like they just finished a swim meet or something.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016


Thumbs up from the Big Dog, and they're out, much to the relief of the secret service guys who were trying to get between them and the crowd
posted by petebest at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Brooks on PBS found the birther answer 'abysmal,' the looks answer 'terrible', etc.
posted by palindromic at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


What's the logic behind that? Is there a strategy, or does he just not want to talk with them for some reason?

There are rumors that he's a germaphobe.
posted by drezdn at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Chuck Todd: Clinton was arguably overprepared?!

He did go on to say there were times he didn't understand what Trump was saying.

Tom Brokaw said he doesn't think Trump appealed to anyone outside his base.
posted by Gelatin at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]




David Brooks is saying Trump = bad, bad, terrible, abysmal
posted by melissasaurus at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Chris Matthews says she "cleaned his clock."
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Tom Brokaw is on NBC is saying some crazy gibberish about "black-on-black crime" and my evens are all marked "can't sorry" and I don't know what to do.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


David Brooks, a Metafilter favorite! *cough*, just called the debate strongly for Clinton
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Phew!!
posted by carmicha at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Chuck Todd: "This is the most abnormal event I have ever witnessed." Goes so far as to call it surreal.

I assume he's talking about Hilary being "overprepared".
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016


Whew. I promised myself I'd workout through that instead of drink and let the anger at Trump and the go get em from Clinton carry me through and boy howdy was that a good workout!

Dunno what the rest of America thinks, but Clinton, God bless her, looked into the abyss for the rest of us and came out okay.
posted by notyou at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [50 favorites]


PBS just talking.
posted by vrakatar at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016


Hillary's "Whoo" was her "saying what everyone's thinking" moment
posted by zutalors! at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


That debate was everything I dreamed it would be. A++
posted by triggerfinger at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


So how long until Trump declares he won the debate?
posted by adept256 at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Honestly, I think on balance I'm okay with Holt's moderation. He gave Trump enough rope to hang himself, and some of those questions and fact checks were more hardball than I had expected.
posted by yasaman at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [68 favorites]


The pundits on CNN agree with me that Trump's best and Clinton's weakest moments were in the 10-25 or so minute mark when he was going after her on trade and she seemed a bit rattled, and then for the remainer of the debate she crushed him.

I would like to say that just because CNN agrees with me does not necessarily mean I'm wrong. Even stopped clocks can be right twice a day.
posted by Justinian at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Help I think I just developed a drinking problem
posted by numaner at 7:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Will you except the results of this election?"

Oh god, Lester, what a stupid final question.


Actually, it's a fantastic final question. Donald has just said point-blank in front of 100 million people that he'll accept the election results, and now Hillary can say "back in the first debate..."
posted by iffthen at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [34 favorites]


For anybody who understands what a debate is, that was an ass whipping, delivered to Trump, courtesy of Clinton.

Those who do not understand what a debate is were probably going to vote Trump anyway.
posted by Mooski at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [96 favorites]


> Also: Clinton is up at the front of the stage talking to the audience and engaging them. Trump is in the background just waving. What's the logic behind that? Is there a strategy, or does he just not want to talk with them for some reason?
posted by Deathalicious at 7:41 PM on September 26 [+] [!]


Whenever Trump has to interact with the public at close range, he has trouble suppressing his disgust.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Cnn declaring victory for Clinton in 80% of the time tonight.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, current odds on Trump bailing on debates two and three? Anyone? Anyone?
posted by lydhre at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


The Keepin it 1600 crew are declaring this definitely a Hillary win (and I trust that they'd be straight up if they really felt otherwise, they'd be bedwetting up one side of the room and down the other).
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Nobody's going to be talking about it tomorrow but the multiple mentions of Sidney Blumenthal, a guy basically nobody has heard of, was some real creepy breitbart crypto-antisemitism
posted by theodolite at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [53 favorites]


Nicole Wallace on Trump - "Indecipherable from a Saturday Night Live skit."
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Did the Lincoln Douglas debates mention shock jocks and comedians?

The Lincoln Douglas debates.
posted by mazola at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


He came unhinged. not very presidential. she didn't lose her composure, didn't look or sound pedantic. perhaps said "plan" too man times, but all in all she killed it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I didn't watch anything but a few minutes and my wife said she had enough of Trump being Trump (not her words, but close enough).

So far, talking heads seem to be giving this to Hillary, laughing at Donald's wacky faces. But then Nicole Wallace keeps calling him "real" - BUT HE ISN'T! HE'S PLAYING A GAME!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016


The image of the evening.
posted by Devonian at 7:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [40 favorites]


I think Trump being told he lost the debate guarantees he'll come back for the next one.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Bring me my phone and my cocaine!"
posted by Artw at 7:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


On Trump's "Law and Order" responses to issues of race -- "Maybe they weren't dog whistles, everyone could hear them" - YES, YES WE CAN HEAR THEM.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


NBC commentary is so far critical of Trump's performance, predicts people won't hold it against him.
posted by Gelatin at 7:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I kind of feel like I went to the gym twice today, and I'm not sure I even have the energy to watch the follow up coverage, but I can't help but think Trump failed to broaden his appeal in any meaningful way while probably costing himself some votes. How many of those 200 Air Force generals are going to stay on board about the beyond idiotic stuff he said about the B-52? Pretty much every time he spoke on foreign policy or military issues, I think he cost himself. The best that I think can be said is he didn't walk off the stage or anything extreme.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Matthews called a shutout for Clinton, comparing it to A Few Good Men: she was Tom Cruise and he was Jack Nicholson.
posted by ogooglebar at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


If you are out of evens tonight you should skip the store and head straight to the odds cannery.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Boy howdy, that was insane
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


So anyone with a grip on world affairs clearly will vote for Clinton. The problem is all those other voters.

This was already the case before the debates, though. Nothing Trump has said on foreign policy or world affairs has made sense. I'm not even talking about whether or not I can agree with it; I mean it literally doesn't make sense. It's like he generated those sentences through Markov chaining.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what good can come from these debates. Nobody who's going to be convinced by facts or reality is voting for Trump anyway. Basically all that can happen here is that Clinton can screw up and lose support. Trump's supporters aren't reality-based and won't waver no matter what. Clinton hasn't screwed up tonight and everything is fine, but I really think the best case scenario here is that the debate has no effect at all. I'm sure that's the reason Trump showed up in the first place.
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, it's true - people who support Trump seem to hold little against him.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


This race isn't a dead heat. Dammit, Bob, I used to like you.
posted by Sphinx at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, my dad has started emulating Trump's steamrolling and interruption tactics despite being a staunch democrat. He started talking to my mom like Trump has been negging Hilary and I lost it. We fought for half an hour, and I won't lie. I screamed at him a few times. I can't stand how Trump interacts with other people. It is so demoralizing to hear; it must be even worse to actually be the brunt of it. That Hilary can withstand him makes her a god. I couldn't. I can't. I just hope she prevails come Election Day so maybe Trump will stop getting air time for a good long while.

Don't let him get to you, Madame President. Please.
posted by Hermione Granger at 7:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [99 favorites]


Nobody's going to be talking about it tomorrow but the multiple mentions of Sidney Blumenthal, a guy basically nobody has heard of, was some real creepy breitbart crypto-antisemitism

I totally noticed this too.
posted by escabeche at 7:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Lester did an OK job. He reminded the audience that Donald completely ignored the facts in his questions, and from my experience arguing with small children if he had pushed it more there'd be no time for Hillary to speak because it would all "uh-hah" "nuh-uh" "uh-hah" "nuh-uh" between him and Donald.
posted by ckape at 7:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'm not sure what Trump thinks the president can and can't do. I mean Hillary hasn't been dictator of the United States or anything. Obama, herself, the Democrats themselves have always had to deal with Republican obstructionism for progress. One of the things she can't use as ammo is the actions of Congressional Republicans specifically because he's not part of that group.
posted by Talez at 7:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reminder listening to NPR tomorrow morning might cause you to see red with rage
posted by vuron at 7:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


Steve Schmidt: Trump was "somewhere between incoherence and babble."
posted by carmicha at 7:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


that performance was worth a donation to the campaign
posted by localhuman at 7:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


So again, I want to emphasize, I saw the debate coverage, it was the best debate coverage, but I have not read this thread yet.

But in some way, I was not expecting it to be as gross as it really was. I was not prepared for it. I knew intellectually that the people that said, "This will be a loud asshole talking over a woman," were right, but somehow it hadn't sunk in. And then I watched. And it was. Between outright yelling over her and punctuating her speech with childish little "wrong!"s and "nope!"s and Clinton's great little zinger about how he likes to "hang around" beauty pageants, I can't imagine any woman in America voting for that clown.

And now I'm going to have another drink and try to erase Trump's speech patterns from my mind.
posted by indubitable at 7:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]


To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what good can come from these debates. Nobody who's going to be convinced by facts or reality is voting for Trump anyway.

The way Clinton wins is not by winning over Trump voters. It is by solidifying her own support and getting just 2-3% of those folks voting for Johnson back.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [87 favorites]


Hannity is interviewing Trump and God I feel sick. Why did I look?
posted by charred husk at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2016


Actually, it's a fantastic final question. Donald has just said point-blank in front of 100 million people that he'll accept the election results, and now Hillary can say "back in the first debate..."

You're totally right. That actually is a pretty clever move. I take back this one particular criticism of Lester Holt (but not any of the others).
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The PBHT (petebest Hot Take) is: She's a pro, he's a doofus, and he didn't do completely horribly. So yeah maybe he won not sputtering into a gelatinous blob.

But yeah, she got it done. Prepared, cool, got in some uppercuts. Trumps biggest soundbites aren't in his favor. The one's that don't work against him directly were essentially him saying "nuh uh".
posted by petebest at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2016


David Brooks on PBS: "if what they needed to do was to make me feel better about the country they failed"

OMG STFU you NYT windbag

Sorry I'm legit drunk

But he did say "it's a Clinton night"so I won't piss on his grave
posted by numaner at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Ted Cruz should have waited until after this debate to endorse Trump.
posted by Gelatin at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


Re: Trump and hand-shaking - not gonna happen; he's a germaphobe who doesn't even like touching elevator buttons that other people have pressed.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hannity just called out Trump to his face for calling Hannity wrong several times live on Fox News. Holy shit this night is amazing.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 7:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [41 favorites]


The way Clinton wins is not by winning over Trump voters

If she can humiliate him convincingly enough on the debate stage, a certain segment of his more reluctant supporters may not turn out.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


so trump is actually like the larry david bernie sanders impression?
posted by vuron at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really do picture Trump trying to squirm out of the following debates now. Biased media, fixed, rigged, they expected me to say things for over an hour, etc. etc.
posted by uosuaq at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


But he did say "it's a Clinton night"so I won't piss on his grave

Move over.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Maddow on Trump: "That's a person who you would ask if they were on their medication if you saw them on a plane and they started misbehaving to the flight attendant."
posted by zachlipton at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [33 favorites]




PBS pundit talking about donnie's "it makes me smart" comment about taxes, perhaps this is a romney type soundbite.
posted by vrakatar at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]






Katy Tur said Trump failed be the "presidential Donald Trump" the campaign was hoping for.
posted by Gelatin at 7:52 PM on September 26, 2016


Oh my god PBS' floor reporter can't get anyone to talk to him.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


"I assure you that @realDonaldTrump will be better prepared at the next debate. " Giuliani.

Parody account.
posted by chris24 at 7:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel like I'm trapped in a Space Moose comic.
posted by i_have_a_computer at 7:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Man, CSPAN is always your best bet for great entertaining phone calls.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel like being incoherent in a presidential debate should work against him, but what do I know.
posted by diogenes at 7:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Nate Silver 10:42 PM - My editor tells me that readers want my subjective impressions of the debate, knowing full well that they’re subjective. And my impressions are that Clinton became a more plausible president tonight and Trump became a less plausible one.
posted by Justinian at 7:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [33 favorites]


I don't understand. Trump is in the spin room spinning his own debate. This is why you have surrogates. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
posted by zachlipton at 7:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [38 favorites]


Wow when Guiliani is basically admitting Trump did awful you know it can't get much worse
posted by vuron at 7:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


yeah, his closing statement was about immigrants being naturalized and affecting the election unfairly. Expect to see that brought up if he loses.
posted by lkc at 7:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


So apparently Howard Dean accused Trump of using cocaine.
posted by TwoStride at 7:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Maybe Trump can't afford campaign surrogates zach
posted by vuron at 7:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


You can afford anyone if you don't plan to ever pay them.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 7:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


It's possible he failed to pay his surrogates so they didn't show up. [fake, I hope]
posted by zachlipton at 7:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Guiliani did no such thing, it's a fake twitter account
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Talking to the press, Trump denied saying not paying taxes was smart.
posted by Gelatin at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


Oh my god PBS' floor reporter can't get anyone to talk to him.
Trump supporters, in summary from PBS' floor reporter: Clinton is a career politician, and it's due to her we're having "these problems"
Yes, those problems Trump keeps talking about that others don't quite see. Because they don't exist as he says they do.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016


Wow when Guiliani is basically admitting Trump did awful you know it can't get much worse

That's not actually Giuliani. It's a comedy parody account (says so right in the Twitter bio).
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ugh, all I want in life is to watch the Keeping t 1600 coverage while I give the kid his feed, and I cannot gets working link to save my life. If it doesn't end up in the podcast stream, I'm gonna be so annoyed.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's more likely that he takes amphetamines to keep himself going, than cocaine. But who knows.
posted by dis_integration at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Former Clinton campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle just took down Trump's weird birther story that mentioned her by name live on CNN. Says she fired the campaign coordinator who forwarded an email promoting the birther controversy. And now they're asking him about it on live TV. He dodges, of course. "Hilary failed."
posted by Mothlight at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


mara eliason on npr saying that he had a really low bar coming in, and he failed to even hurdle that.
posted by localhuman at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [46 favorites]


David Brooks, a Metafilter favorite! *cough*, just called the debate strongly for Clinton

On Twitter David Frum (neocon) said that HRC blew it. But he buggered off an hour or so ago to write his column for deadline, so he missed the whole thing. But it was pretty boring after they stopped yelling at each other.

Josh Barro (free market liberal/libertarian) thought that Clinton was boring and probably didn't connect with anyone outside her base.

I thought HRC did well. I haven't seen much of her, and haven't seen her ads (as a Canadian I probably resemble the average clued-out swing voter), and rely disliked her neocon foreign policy going into the debates. Based on her performance tonight, where I got to know her, I would vote for her (if I could vote in US elections).
posted by My Dad at 7:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


NBC Reporter: You seemed to say that you hadn't paid federal income tax, and that was smart. Is that what you meant to say?
Trump: I never said anything like that.

Hilary doesn't have to write ads about Trump; she just has to edit the public footage.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [58 favorites]


I need a CNN snap poll of who won the debate STAT. They better be on the phones as we speak.
posted by Justinian at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nate Silver 10:42 PM - My editor tells me

I Think Nate Silver Is Broken, Maybe?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Says she called David Plouffe immediately to apologize. Says Blumenthal never worked for the campaign.
posted by Mothlight at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Am I the only one who think Hillary's performance was tepid? She had few policy specifics and failed to really hammer Trump when he gave his usual broad strokes--just a jab here and there. I think Donald generated the better sound bites (mostly early), and he managed to not sound crazy pants for at least 45 minutes out of the 90.

Ultimately, I don't think Clinton did much to really convince anyone who wasn't already on board. She didn't stick hard enough with the two things people have the biggest issue with: trust and the economy.
posted by Room 101 at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump IS Space Moose.
posted by Yowser at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


So how long until Trump declares he won the debate?

Just went downstairs to get some more cheeze and heard him on the parents tv 'Hillary failed, she failed, blah blah fail' and I ran back upstairs with my cheese.
posted by Jalliah at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


I'm amusing myself as my pulse comes down by looking at all the interesting euphemisms for victory I'm seeing in my feeds. I think I like "killed him cooked him motherfucking ate him" best.
posted by Mooski at 7:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


Trump is live on Bloomberg right now saying how he should've hit her with Bill's life stuff. Holy crap. That's nuts.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


"Undecided" voter called in to CSPAN talking about how Trump was "sniffing all the time" and "yelling all the time" and unable to focus on what the subjects of the questions were, and having self-centered answers. Crossing my fingers that this is the typical reaction.
posted by zennie at 7:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [67 favorites]


I was actually doing fine until the PBS commentator grimly said he wasn't feeling very good about the future of the country.

Now I'm dead. I'm dead and so angry I'm still posting.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump is now spinning that he's glad he didn't bring up Bill's transgressions because Chelsea was in the room, but he wanted to bring it up.
posted by zachlipton at 7:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


He knows he got worked.

Good and hard.
posted by notyou at 7:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


I spent all this time in Chat, and now I have hundreds of juicy comments to read. Win/win, except for my productivity.

I feel SO much better, y'all. I thought Clinton was clear and smart and optimistic and steady as hell, and she absolutely nailed him on his weaknesses. He was an angry, rambling, immature mess.

So far the hot take seems to be that she won this easily. I can't see any other way to spin what happened there tonight.
posted by Salieri at 7:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


The insta-memes on my Facebook feed are Clinton and her "I prepared to be president" quote, and Clinton juxtaposed with the guy from Airplane sniffing glue.
posted by Gelatin at 7:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Oh and apparently it's unusual for candidates to go into the spin room and talk with the press. I didn't know that. Maybe Trump doesn't know that? Either way, not surprising that he'd do it.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh hey. Next up is Kaine-Pence!

Can't wait!
posted by notyou at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2016


I want to make two final points for people coming here later. I said earlier in the thread that Trump sniffing and looking sick had echoes of Richard Nixon's TV debate with JFK, where Nixon came off looking uncomfortable, but also that Hillary's condescending smiles had echoes of Al Gore sighing when debating GWB in 2000. At the close of the debate this clearly tipped one way, namely in Clinton's favour. (One bad bit was when Clinton says Trump doesn't have the temperament to be anywhere near the nuclear arsenal, and Trump responds (essentially) "sure I do" THEN SNIFFS. Yeah pass the football, call SecDef and break out the coke! Time to have a party in South-East Asia!)

Also, I suspect "looks Presidential" is still a factor that matters to people who aren't part of the alt-right, or aren't dealing with "they stole our jobs" disenfranchisement. Clinton nailed looking Presidential, except for a period of about 10-15 mins earlier on. Trump didn't. My die-hard GOP-supporting family members in the US have already decided to do a write-in vote, but if they were still on the fence at all I imagine this would have swayed them away from Trump.
posted by iffthen at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Actually, it's a fantastic final question. Donald has just said point-blank in front of 100 million people that he'll accept the election results

Except he didn't. He said "I will support her." That isn't the same as that he'll accept the results - there's a lot of wiggle room there ("I support her until the commission finds that this is totally fraudulent" / "If it turns out this is not rigged, I support her," etc.)
posted by Mchelly at 8:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


"sniffing all the time" MUST be the Meme of the night. It's not dank, it's snotty.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:01 PM on September 26, 2016


You know what I want to see in a debate? A moderator who's queued up video clips of what each candidate has actually said, so when they cite prior statements in a question, if someone says "I never said that" they can just call out "Play the tape" and have inarguable evidence on a giant screen. Of course it would come across as incredibly biased, since one candidate is known for denying the past and one isn't, but it would be very satisfying.
posted by Rangi at 8:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [53 favorites]


Conway said he was Babe Ruth, but...

There is no joy in Mar-A-Lago. Mighty Trump has struck out.
posted by chris24 at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've decided long ago that listening to trump speak for any length of time makes my head want to fucking explode, but it's good to see that the consensus is that Clinton wiped the fucking floor with his garbage body.
posted by codacorolla at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


donald trump: I didn't say that

the internet:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Hillary was not only prepared, she was prepared for what Donald was likely to do and she hit him with the full-on persuasion jujitsu while still keeping her own focus on actual talking points. I doubt it ever occurred to him what someone with a large budget and the ability to call the people who trained him in his sales skills could do to him. Everything he's ever done has been junior league compared to this.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]


I went straight to "watch the debate" mode after the Triumph of the Red Dress. I'll catch up... really.
Meanwhile, thanks for the forum. Delaying until an hour before the debate has made it much easier to parse, with less than 100 posts before the candidates took the stage.
See you at 2016 Presidential Debate Two.
posted by TrishaU at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


waitingtoderail: Nicole Wallace on Trump - "Indecipherable from a Saturday Night Live skit."

Clarification: she was talking about Trump's expressions, not all of Trump's debate (as far as I could tell).
posted by filthy light thief at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Especially towards the end, Trump appeared to be channelling Chris Farley in the "van down by the river" sketch.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 8:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well, someone I know who I thought might be a stealth Trump supporter is posting on Facebook making fun of him, so that's something.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


The sniffing was incredibly apparent when I was in the car listening to the debate on NPR. Less so when I got home and turned the TV on. On the radio he was sniff central. He sounded kind of out of breath, like an overweight 70 year old who never exercises and eats nothing but fastfood might sound. But I digress. Stamina. It's important.
posted by dis_integration at 8:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


MSNBC is basically saying Trump's performance was total garbage.
posted by zutalors! at 8:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ha! Ha! A major political party is running, as their presidential candidate, the guy who follows you out to the parking lot to start a fight because you quietly reminded him that he was at the front of the line while he was talking loudly on his cell phone

What a silly, hilarious state for reality to be in!
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]


Am I the only one who think Hillary's performance was tepid? She had few policy specifics and failed to really hammer Trump when he gave his usual broad strokes--just a jab here and there. I think Donald generated the better sound bites (mostly early), and he managed to not sound crazy pants for at least 45 minutes out of the 90.

Yep only one
posted by craven_morhead at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [47 favorites]


Clarification: she was talking about Trump's expressions, not all of Trump's debate (as far as I could tell).

Yes, sorry I didn't make that clear.
posted by waitingtoderail at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2016


I don't think Clinton did much to really convince anyone who wasn't already on board.
So, after she won the nomination I was always planning on voting for her, because my problem with her is really that she is not progressive enough for me, and she's better than the alternative (obviously). But I donated money to her during the debate and am now all in. I'm legitimately convinced. I suspect there are people who began watching more lukewarm than I that are now mostly or entirely in for her after that performance.
posted by sockermom at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [49 favorites]




Hillary's body double really brought her A-game tonight.
posted by asteria at 8:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [58 favorites]


One interesting thing I noticed was that Trump could not resist the urge to interject with a bunch of "that's not true" statements. That's really going to run up the count on the fact checking, since he made so many such assertions.
posted by zachlipton at 8:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I really hope the Clinton team puts out an "I never said that" themed ad that's not just "look at all the stuff he's lied about!" but goes farther and says "what do you think he'll say once he's in office?"

"We'll cut your taxes so much, folks." "I never said that."
"I've got a plan to defeat ISIS." "I never said that."
etc.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


Am I the only one who think Hillary's performance was tepid?

Not tepid, but she missed some easy pitches. Like when he went to super predators and she failed to mention his campaign against the Central Park Five.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Feed Brit Hume to the ice giants.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oh hey. Next up is Kaine-Pence!

I can barely imagine a normal political debate at this point.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Wow oh wow chris24

This isn't the 50s anymore people
posted by vuron at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


chris24: On @FoxNews, Brit Hume just complained that Clinton looked "composed, smug, not necessarily attractive."

True, Yes, and that's an unnecessary (and very personal) statement to make about anyone.

So, how hot was Trump, right? Like molten lava...
posted by filthy light thief at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Am I the only one who think Hillary's performance was tepid?

The main critique I had was that she let Trump of the hook on too many crazy statements. But that was partially there moderators fault. Does anyone know how the airtime was split?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary Clinton looked like a great President of the United States. Donald Trump looked like a guy living in a Van Down By the River.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


It seemed to me - please correct me if I'm wrong - that when Trump didn't have an answer to a question or a criticism, he'd just brag about something he'd built. Apparently that's his comfort zone.
posted by ogooglebar at 8:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


I really only took the sniffing as breathing through his nose so that he could continue to talk; basically, a nasal version of this.
posted by bonje at 8:07 PM on September 26, 2016


Dear MSNBC,

Brian Fucking Williams questioning politicians about honesty and integrity is not a good look.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


On the election result thing, he fielded a NBC question on it in the spin room too.
posted by craven_morhead at 8:07 PM on September 26, 2016


A dear friend of mine is a small government republican, I'm a big government FDR style democrat. We're both pretty socially liberal. We're both like, WTH did we just watch.
posted by joycehealy at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]




You know I'm happy that the sniffling thing is popping up everywhere I'm going. It's stoopid and petty but yeah some of the jokes are pretty funny and symbolic. I'm okay if this is debate is summed up with a whole bunch of Sniffling Trump meme thingys. And boy are there going to be some good sniffling gifs.
posted by Jalliah at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was watching something else.

How'd the debate go?
posted by Smedleyman at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Did Trump ever smile? Not a wily mean spirited i gotcha smile but a genuine smile?? I don't like someone that never smiles...
posted by robbyrobs at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


It seemed to me - please correct me if I'm wrong - that when Trump didn't have an answer to a question or a criticism, he'd just brag about something he'd built. Apparently that's his comfort zone.

I noticed that the only way he seemed to relate to various American cities was by the property he owned there.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [72 favorites]


Sorry I've been doing dishes since the debate ended, has the far right started saying that Clinton's goofy giggle was a micro-seizure yet?
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


oh good Chuck Todd is here on MSNBC
posted by zutalors! at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hey, that's offensive to Matt Foley.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


CheeseDigestsAll: Does anyone know how the airtime was split?

You mean, how was it supposed to be split, or how much time Trump took? If it's the latter, I think there'll be some good analysis tomorrow.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chuck Todd: "He took the bait every single time she threw it out there."
posted by XMLicious at 8:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


The main critique I had was that she let Trump of the hook on too many crazy statements.

Yeah, but the fucker kept ranting on and on, and the moderator did nothing. How the hell is HRC, a woman, supposed to interrupt Trump? It's a lose-lose situation. And an unusual situation for a Presidential debate. How could you interrupt Adolf Hitler (also a pill-popper) while on a rant in the bunker in Berlin in May, 1945?
posted by My Dad at 8:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Breitbart: Five Times Lester Holt Shilled for Hillary Clinton at First Debate

I think this is the admission of defeat.
posted by chris24 at 8:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [43 favorites]


In reviewing Donald's discussion of "the cyber" is appears he is suggesting that he thinks that maybe his ten year old son Baron Trump weighs 400lbs and hacked the DNC while sitting on his bed.
posted by humanfont at 8:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump said about the bad thing he wouldn't say tonight because Chelsea was there, "I'll tell you maybe at the next debate." Shut up. You insane, babbling, rancid pile of cat diarrhea. The fact that he is even remotely competing with someone as brilliant as Clinton makes me want to go outside and scream. I've reached the point where I am telling people that I will never have anything to do with them as long as I live if they vote Trump. Tonight just reinforced my belief that I am correct in cutting ties with anyone who will support this buffoon. Life is too short.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [63 favorites]


I don't know how the airtime was split, but 538 had this infographic of interruptions.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Jon Lovett on Keepin it 1600 is my spirit animal
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Time for a big whiskey time
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


It was really clear to me that Clinton that prepared for all the most likely things Trump would throw at her. Her rebuttals were very good, especially her delivery which is going to be picked over more than her words. I love how plain spoken she was- calling him a racist and saying flatout that he had lied.
posted by betsybetsy at 8:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


The main critique I had was that she let Trump of the hook on too many crazy statements.

I disagree. I think she struck a good balance between engaging and just acknowledging how out of control his bluster was without taking the bait.
posted by Shmuel510 at 8:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


I still feel like Hillary could have brought him some cookies, or fresh-cut flowers, at the beginning of the debate, though. I mean, there was a definite lack of respect for Trump there. He flew a long way to get to this and all you do is shake his hand?
posted by uosuaq at 8:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]




Congrats to the woman! You were twice as good, let's call it a draw!
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [184 favorites]


You know, I feel kind of silly for being stuck on this, but is admitting (twice) on a nationally televised platform to federal tax evasion not... you know... kind of a big deal? Like, ????? Is that not actually admitting to committing a federal crime? Like, a fuckup on a completely different level than suggesting 10 y/o Baron be in charge of internet security or overusing the word "tremendous"??? Can someone help me out here and explain why this isn't a huge thing?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [56 favorites]


Haha when Breitbart is having to call Holt a shill you know things went bad for the alt-right
posted by vuron at 8:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


On @FoxNews, Brit Hume just complained that Clinton looked "composed, smug, not necessarily attractive."

Is Brit Hume aware of the scandal enveloping his employer at the moment? Would Brit Hume pass the Turing Test? Will Clinton's campaign send him a nice fruit basket after the election? Will Brit Hume read this follow-up tweet?
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


There were times where her mask slipped, but I think she had an Oscars level performance for being humiliated into having to deal with a miserable man-child on a national stage.
posted by porpoise at 8:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


You know what I want to see in a debate? A moderator who's queued up video clips of what each candidate has actually said, so when they cite prior statements in a question, if someone says "I never said that" they can just call out "Play the tape" and have inarguable evidence on a giant screen. Of course it would come across as incredibly biased, since one candidate is known for denying the past and one isn't, but it would be very satisfying.

They did this at one point in the Democratic primary debate. They showed the tape of Bernie being asked about Cuba. I wonder why they can't do this for these debates.
posted by joedan at 8:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Checking the NPR fact checking page and I'm stupified about 2 steps in. First thing they have is a Clinton lie "That starts with raising the national minimum wage" with the denotation that is a lie because "The federal minimum wage has not been increased by Congress since 2009." Ummm, stating a starting point is not a fact to be checked and really, stating that it hasn't happened yet is not really pointing out a lie. Do they even know what a lie is?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 8:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [60 favorites]


On @FoxNews, Brit Hume just complained that Clinton looked "composed, smug, not necessarily attractive."

In this comment, I complain that Brit Hume is on television.
posted by duffell at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I worked at the winery tonight - it's Crush time - and got good and loaded. The husband wanted to listen to the debate on the hour-long drive home.

I made it through Madame Secretary's remarks, then begged the husband to please not make me suffer through the talking yam's beating. "But I'm curious!", he said.

"Look, just read the MetaFilter thread. Please don't make me suffer."

He changed the station.

Thank you, dear Metafiltrians, for helping me avoid torture. I owe you.
posted by MissySedai at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]


He's not admitting to tax evasion he's admitting to structuring his income as something other than what the IRS calls "income."
posted by craven_morhead at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


How could you interrupt Adolf Hitler (also a pill-popper) while on a rant in the bunker in Berlin in May, 1945?

I am so looking for Downfall/Trump mashups on youtube right now.
posted by wilful at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Tax avoidance (which is legal) not evasion (which isn't). There's a third category, avoision, which keeps a lot of tax officials, accountants and lawyers in business.
posted by Devonian at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


How could you interrupt Adolf Hitler (also a pill-popper) while on a rant in the bunker in Berlin in May, 1945?

Somebody please dub one of Trump's run-on sentences word strings over that clip of Hitler from Downfall.

(Edit: wilful and I think alike.)
posted by Rangi at 8:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jerry Springer: "Hillary Clinton belongs in the White House. Donald Trump belongs on my show."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [69 favorites]


Republican pollster Frank Luntz: Who won tonite's debate? In my focus group, 6 people said Trump and 16 said Clinton.
posted by joedan at 8:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


You know, I feel kind of silly for being stuck on this, but is admitting (twice) on a nationally televised platform to federal tax evasion not... you know... kind of a big deal?

I don't think he did. At most, he admitted to taking advantage of every legal loophole and technicality available. Which is still not an un-big deal, but not in the same league as actual crime.
posted by Shmuel510 at 8:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump looks like he has been taking a rapid weight loss product, he seemed facially deflated. Papers have been daring to portray him as plump. He seemed brain weary, low carb diet will do that.
posted by Oyéah at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2016


He's not admitting to tax evasion he's admitting to structuring his income as something other than what the IRS calls "income."

As usual, the real scandal is what's legal. I'm sure there's illegal shit in his tax returns or he'd release the, but I bet 99% of the mechanisms he uses to keep his taxes low are legal or the kind of thing you can cheat on until you're caught, at which point you just pay what you originally owed.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


You mean, how was it supposed to be split, or how much time Trump took? If it's the latter, I think there'll be some good analysis tomorrow.

There was at least one point where she could have jumped in to grab her time, but he was doing such a good job shooing himself in the foot that she just kind of grinned at him.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm really curious about how his team is going to deal with this, going further. Will they just kiss his ass and say, "Yeah, good job! Do more of that next time! Anyone who says you didn't win is a biased member of the liberal media!"

Or will they give him some hard truths? Because...it's not like he's going to listen.
posted by Salieri at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


This vine tho. I noticed this when it happened and really wondered if Trump just noped out on shaking Holt's hand. How do you do that?
posted by dis_integration at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]


He said he didn't pay taxes because he is smart.
posted by Oyéah at 8:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"avoision" cannot be a real word. Come on.

avoision
posted by dilaudid at 8:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


moonlight on vermont, the problem is that even if Trump really is paying $0 in taxes, it's probably not actually tax evasion. There are a *lot* of perfectly legal ways to shield income if you are rich enough and have a smart accountant.
posted by tau_ceti at 8:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]




Checking the NPR fact checking page and I'm stupified about 2 steps in

Well know you that every lie has an equal and opposing lie. That's just physics.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think that Holt struck about the right balance between calling Trump out and letting him run his mouth. Not perfect of course but hey, perfection is what we strive for, not what we achieve. Several times while Trump was talking I was actually worried that Holt would interrupt him while he was making a mistake.
posted by kingless at 8:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


On @FoxNews, Brit Hume just complained that Clinton looked "composed, smug, not necessarily attractive."

Pot. Kettle. Black.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


It was like 20 minutes into the debate she locked the doors and burned the place down with Trump inside and then emerged unscathed from the flames as a reborn dragon queen.
posted by humanfont at 8:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [132 favorites]


I loved the way she stayed stock-still while he was talking. Like letting a toddler cry himself out when it's come to that stage of parenting where you have to let them learn to deal with their own boo-boos. I don't want to chalk it all up to preparation for this debate because she's been doing that her whole life. But one of my coworkers said to me earlier today "she must be *so* nervous" and I was like "I kind of doubt that, she's been dealing with this for decades...I bet she's feeling okay".
posted by uosuaq at 8:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]






There are a *lot* of perfectly legal ways to shield income if you are rich enough and have a smart accountant.

But Trump is sloppy and arrogant and thinks that laws don't apply to him.
posted by holgate at 8:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]




Dow futures add 100 points as debate ends --CNBC

"See Donald. I did more for the economy tonight than you ever have." [fake]
posted by zachlipton at 8:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


I think that Holt struck about the right balance between calling Trump out and letting him run his mouth.

I agree, and noticed that he did rebuke Hillary a few times to try to be fair. Holt exceeded my expectations - and HURRAY Hills!
posted by porpoise at 8:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can we just call him Rump now?
posted by ethansr at 8:23 PM on September 26, 2016


Because he's a loser. A sore loser.

Also he really needs a bump before bedtime.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


There are lots of perfectly legal ways to use a charity to further your own business ends, but he just had it cut checks to people he owed money. Trump doesn't give a flying fuck what's technically legal, he just breaks the law and dares you to sue him.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ummm, stating a starting point is not a fact to be checked and really, stating that it hasn't happened yet is not really pointing out a lie. Do they even know what a lie is?

NPR hasn't been a reliable news source since Republicans put them under threat years ago.
posted by any major dude at 8:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


This vine tho. I noticed this when it happened and really wondered if Trump just noped out on shaking Holt's hand. How do you do that?

He did circle back immediately after that to shake Holt's hand.

(I mean, he's a douchebag, but manipulating the evidence to make it seem like he's a douchebag when there is so much legitimate douchebagness on display seems self-defeating. See also: the previous fake screenshot of Trump's campaign deleting a tweet that was never taken down. Why even?)
posted by Shmuel510 at 8:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh my. Dean's coke tweet was actually on tv. I never knew what people meant by something giving them vapors. I came across this in comment thread and now I know! Did this really and truely happen?
posted by Jalliah at 8:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump skipping Suffolk County GOP victory party

because he's so very, very tired.
posted by carmicha at 8:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Do you want a fucking President who boasts about weaseling out of paying their taxes? What the hell kind of example is that? It's just hilarious.
posted by Flashman at 8:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [45 favorites]


How long until he starts lashing out on Twitter?
posted by sporkwort at 8:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Romney also made the argument that paying the absolute minimum possible taxes was just sound fiscal sense and paying less than his fair share helped qualify him for President.

I doubt Trump's as good at is as Romney, though.
posted by ckape at 8:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN's group of 20 "undecided" Florida voters went 18-2 for Clinton.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [48 favorites]


18 out of 20 so-called undecided Florida voters on the CNN called it for Clinton. The young woman who identified as a Bernie supporter says Clinton didn't do enough.

*slaps forehead*
posted by Justinian at 8:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [33 favorites]


Most watched debate ever, right?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:26 PM on September 26, 2016




ethansr: Can we just call him Rump now?

No tea, all shade?
posted by filthy light thief at 8:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


MSNCB:
Brian: "James Carvill e is standing by in Arizona."
voice: "thank God"
Brian: "Nicole Wallace just said thank God, now the universe has mashed together and the star in the center has exploded."
posted by numaner at 8:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


The 2 holdouts: "We just like the incoherent, shitty guy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
posted by defenestration at 8:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]


So if you're curious for a real barometer of how Trump did in this debate, brace yourself and go check out the post debate thread on reddit's /r/the_donald. Every comment is about how disappointed they are in their god emperor. How he should've done x, y, or z, and how Holt rigged the debate from the start. Oh man. I'm feeling better. 🎶It's getting better all the time.🎶
posted by dis_integration at 8:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [72 favorites]


No, but seriously, you guys. She was being so mean to him by calling him a racist and stuff, and he could have totally called her fat, but he didn't. But he COULD have. That's how awesome he is.
posted by Defying Gravity at 8:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's fucking Zeno's Dichotomy paradox reading these comments from start to finish.

NO I DO NOT WANT TO '2 new comments, show' YOU YODA PHRASING MONSTER OF A WEBSITE.

....
..
.

No, the debates didn't get me all het up. Why do you ask?
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, best two out of three?
posted by filthy light thief at 8:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


David Frum said on Twitter: "Who told Hillary Clinton to keep smiling like she’s at her granddaughter’s birthday party?" and Twitter is tearing him to shreds.
posted by octothorpe at 8:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein!
posted by clavdivs at 8:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


From a Trump supporter on CSPAN (paraphrased): "I'd like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent guy, so I watched the debate with an open mind[...]so I decided that the first person in tonight's debate to say the word 'China' will get my vote."
posted by Rykey at 8:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


50/50 odds he can't do the next one for health reasons? Is it a town hall style?
posted by vrakatar at 8:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rykey plz say [fake]
posted by defenestration at 8:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anyone know if there's a human-edited transcript out yet? WaPo's is incomplete, and as much as I would like to believe that Trump said Mustard would like advocacy, the machine generated transcript on the NPR site is totally incomprehensible....

(And their popup bullshit is hella annoying to boot.)
posted by Westringia F. at 8:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


She's working a debate watch event now. Stamina! (MSNBC)
posted by clone boulevard at 8:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]




And now Hillary's at a rally. How's that for stamina? Go enjoy your grumpy-time nap, Donald.
posted by charred husk at 8:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [37 favorites]


OMG even Drudge.com is at a loss (as of yet) on what banner headline to post proclaiming Trump won the debate
posted by robbyrobs at 8:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


MSNBC is showing Hillary stopping by a debate watch party. All the people who are like "what does she even stand for" and posting all the blanks on her policy, tune in! Oh you probably won't.
posted by zutalors! at 8:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


You lost me at "David Frum", octothorpe, but I'm sure that was a good comment.
posted by uosuaq at 8:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN SNAP POLL. Sample is 41% Democratic, 29% Republican (skews Democratic heavily)

62% Clinton won, 27% Trump won.
posted by Justinian at 8:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


David Frum said on Twitter: "Who told Hillary Clinton to keep smiling like she’s at her granddaughter’s birthday party?" and Twitter is tearing him to shreds.

To be fair, a lot of people "tear David Frum to shreds" in his Twitter feed. I like following him because I like reading reasonably intelligent opinions by people I disagree with.
posted by My Dad at 8:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump said Mustard would like advocacy [true] [okay, fake. [probably]]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Saw someone trumpet that Drudge had a poll showing Trump won the debate, 92% to 8%... to which someone responded that if 8% of Drudge readers thought Clinton won, he's lost the election.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [65 favorites]


David Frum said on Twitter: "Who told Hillary Clinton to keep smiling like she’s at her granddaughter’s birthday party?" and Twitter is tearing him to shreds.

The thing that I really want when this is over, and which I know I will not get, is an after-the-election session where alleged journalists and pundits are held to account for these shitty things they have said. Publicly. Live on TV. Where they are confronted with their own shitty statements and asked if they stand by them, and why, and then their bosses are asked why they still have jobs.

And then after those questions, they get asked, "Why do you think that answer is good enough?"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]


David Frum said on Twitter: "Who told Hillary Clinton to keep smiling like she’s at her granddaughter’s birthday party?" and Twitter is tearing him to shreds.

By the end I was pretty sure she was just seeing how long she could stay in presidential portrait pose between turns.
posted by quiet coyote at 8:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


Do we have any kind of read yet on the Mark Cuban effect?
posted by Flashman at 8:34 PM on September 26, 2016


defenestration, while I don't deny turning to strong drink about midway through the shitshow, yes, that's what I understood James from New York (I think that's how the moderator introduced him) to say a few minutes ago on CSPAN's call-in coverage. Maybe someone can confirm?
posted by Rykey at 8:34 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein!

I never got that meme. It's too weird.
posted by My Dad at 8:35 PM on September 26, 2016


Josh Marshall's snap judgement: Hillary ruled the show.
posted by argybarg at 8:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's funny, because David Frum was sort of rehabbing his "axis of evil" image into more of a "reasonable conservative" schtick. But there is literally nothing Hillary could have done to avoid this kind of substance-free criticism. You had her opponent basically foaming at the mouth to attack her, she just stood there and patiently waited her turn... but I guess she didn't smile properly.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah next one is town hall format which means that Trump will get asked questions by plebians and that should go over well.
posted by vuron at 8:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Guys I don't know what to do about watching the debate. I have an hour and a half to decide whether to watch it or not. I could just read a transcript, but I feel like I need to watch it to be able to really converse about it. But I also think I might throw something if I do. (I explained in the earlier thread I don't have data allowance to watch it until Midnight.)

Maybe I'll watch it and skip through the really annoying bits? Would there be any debate left? Luckily I still have half an avocado and half a bottle of wine.
posted by threeturtles at 8:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Rykey, thanks for confirming the [real]

I don't usually but I can't even
posted by defenestration at 8:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'd like to see a long form profile of the architect in the audience whom Trump stiffed who "maybe didn't do a good job" in the NYTimes or some goddamned excuse for a journalism outfit
posted by localhuman at 8:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Not quite a Bartlett-Ritchie level drubbing tonight, but close enough for the real world.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Let's ask the New York Times, did both sides do it?

Trump and Clinton Clash on Terrorism, Jobs and Race

The Missed Opportunities on Both Sides "It only took 90 minutes, but Hillary Clinton and Donald J. Trump fell into a rut that reinforced both of their stereotypes."

Whew! I thought for a second you had endorsed Hilary Clinton, but I see I was mistaken, carry on Trumping for Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [38 favorites]


Overheard as I was leaving Best Bar in the world - a conversation between a woman who watched the debate and some friends who'd sat it out at an outside table.

FRIENDS: so what happened?

WOMAN: Trump got his ass kicked, whadja think?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


For the next two debates, I really hope they go ahead and just cut his mic every time he goes over time or tries to shout over Hillary. And I very much look forward to the literal temper tantrum that will surely inspire.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


threeturtles, there were definitely some moments that are worth watching over reading, but I had a lot of trouble watching Trump speak, with all the interrupting and yelling and general incoherence. It made me feel uneasy and physically uncomfortable.
posted by defenestration at 8:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Luckily I still have half an avocado and half a bottle of wine.

I'm going crosseyed from scanning my way down all these comments, that and a word perfect wordwrap buffer bingo, but I absolutely read that as '... I still have half a bottle of avocado wine." and got really intrigued.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, current odds on Trump bailing on debates two and three? Anyone? Anyone?

I predict that he'll do both of the next two, hoping to get to the fourth one with the FOX moderator. And Clinton will, smartly, skip that one after trouncing him in the previous three.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 8:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hey look! I'm finally at the bottom of the thread!

I was too deeply anxious to watch the debate -- it's like a solar eclipse, I couldn't look directly at it

thanks for being the paper-plate-with-a-hole-cut-in-it, Metafilter. you folks are the best
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 8:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [69 favorites]


The justification I'm seeing from Trump supporters online: he held back on purpose, and will go for the jugular during the 2nd and 3rd debates.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


So what I want to know is, how does this evening's performance contribute to the psychological ruination and unmaking of Donald Trump? Hillary got some hard hits in, and successfully baited him again and again. How's his ego going to recover? What unhinged crazypants nonsense will he get up to to make himself feel better?

Also, let's all take a moment to feel deeply, deeply sorry for whoever has to deal with him in person tonight. Or if you're unable to summon such sympathy, at least feel profoundly grateful that every moment of your life has led to this moment in which you are not the person who has to deal with Trump tonight.
posted by yasaman at 8:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [36 favorites]


I predict that he'll do both of the next two, hoping to get to the fourth one with the FOX moderator. And Clinton will, smartly, skip that one after trouncing him in the previous three.

There are only three total debates, not including the VP one. If Trump skips the next one I guess it would be fair for HRC to skip the last one but I think, since it is the closest to the election, she will show up and make a fool of him again in that one, too, despite the Fox moderator.
posted by dis_integration at 8:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, thanks for watching this for me. I can't look at that muppet, it's too infuriating--it's like watching somebody who's staggering drunk argue with people who are trying to keep him from driving.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Hey y'all, Colbert is on fire (live).
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


thanks for being the paper-plate-with-a-hole-cut-in-it, Metafilter. you folks are the best

MetaFilter: camera obscura
posted by iffthen at 8:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


The justification I'm seeing from Trump supporters online: he held back on purpose, and will go for the jugular during the 2nd and 3rd debates.

OK, this is the first time tonight I've felt confident that Hillary won. When your supporters are leaning on rope-a-dope analogies, you done lost.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I pretty much expect to see Trump at the next debate, but the format does give me some pause because I really can't imagine a riskier situation for him than having to field pointed questions from just regular people.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:43 PM on September 26, 2016


So I guess the reports of Trump prepping for the debate by shooting the shit with Roger Ailes and Laura Ingraham were actually and not just an attempt to lower expecations? Score another one for Trump's Razor.
posted by sporkwort at 8:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


I can't look at that muppet, it's too infuriating--it's like watching somebody who's staggering drunk argue with people who are trying to keep him from driving

Holy shit, Sing Or Swim. That is so it.
posted by defenestration at 8:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's way way past my bed time. Thanks for being my Donald Trump Pinhole Camera Service again, guys. Between here and Keepin it 1600, I go to bed breathing slightly easier.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


No Trump tweets for over an hour?

Armageddon is nigh
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:45 PM on September 26, 2016


And @ realDonalTrump is literally tweetless. Over an hour now with nothing. Nothing. I really thought he would be claiming delusional victory there already.

Ivanka is literally holding both of his hands so he can't tweet for as long as she can.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'd like to see a long form profile of the architect in the audience whom Trump stiffed who "maybe didn't do a good job" in the NYTimes or some goddamned excuse for a journalism outfit

He did an ad for Hillary.
posted by holgate at 8:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


"fuck you you guys do coke and lose debates" @realDonalTrump [not]
posted by defenestration at 8:47 PM on September 26, 2016


The justification I'm seeing from Trump supporters online:

Everything I'm seeing is how Trump was debating Clinton and Holt. So straight to the cries of fairness.

I suspect the official line from the campaign might be to play on the sniffle thing. He was off his game because he was sick but he still went on with the debate and did really well in spite of his being ill.

It doesn't matter that his base went wild over the pneumonia thing and not that they would care simply because it's Trump but they might do it to save face among those that saw him waffle hard.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 8:47 PM on September 26, 2016


The justification I'm seeing from Trump supporters online: he held back on purpose, and will go for the jugular during the 2nd and 3rd debates.

Being a screaming manic didn't work, so he's going to be even more of a screaming maniac? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I noticed that the only way he seemed to relate to various American cities was by the property he owned there.

The primary exceptions being his repeated claims that stop-and-frisk in NYC was the best thing since sliced bread, interspersed by bouts of talking shit about Chicago. I'm not sure what that says...

I was too deeply anxious to watch the debate -- it's like a solar eclipse, I couldn't look directly at it[.] thanks for being the paper-plate-with-a-hole-cut-in-it, Metafilter. you folks are the best

I literally had another window - generally this thread - covering the one with the livestream so that I didn't have to watch Trump and hear him at the same time; that would have made the whole thing far too real.
posted by ubersturm at 8:47 PM on September 26, 2016


Good point Tommy Vietor made on the Keepin' it 1600 debate show: everyone thought Obama lost the election after the first debate in 2012, so it's too soon to call the election.

That said, I'm calling it for Hillary. And yes, I'll go outside, turn around, spit and curse. But I'm walking away from this debate feeling extremely confident in her chances.
posted by joedan at 8:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Guys. You realize what this means:
Bill Kristol was finally right about something.

I no longer know what to believe anymore.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


FRIENDS: so what happened?

WOMAN: Trump got his ass kicked, whadja think?


My version of that is that I'm at home watching the facebook feed roll and my family member that is an ardent Trump supporter posted a picture of his TV screen with the split camera view of the two candidates with the brilliant commentary/title of, verbatim,

"Donald trumps face is like bull. Blow it out your ass Hillary".

Whereupon his friends, even ones that are admittedly Trump supporters, begin to express concern about Trump's performance and begin hedging their bets with comments like "Behind trump but he's not being very presidential." and "Just wish Trump would cool his temper and he'd have it in the bag."

Then the next thing he shares is, and I'm not kidding, is something that I can't comprehend about bringing beer to a movie theater by Mudjug Portable Spittoons's.

Short attention span and even shallower intelligence mixed with a dash of trepidation from the smarter among them, there you have it folks, Trump supporters around the country just now...
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I didn't have the stomach to watch this thing but you made it awesome, everyone. Thank you.

That, plus 'cocaine' is trending on Twitter tonight.

It's been a good evening.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:48 PM on September 26, 2016




#Sniff is also trending on Twitter.
posted by chris24 at 8:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Grover Norquist:

Trump failed to speak to the Vaping community tonight.
Missed opportunity.
next debate?

[real]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 8:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Want to descend into madness? Take a look at the 39 tweets that @realDonaldjTrump has liked:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/likes
posted by Freen at 8:50 PM on September 26, 2016


i know it's late
Batman vs. The Penguin: The Debate
posted by robbyrobs at 8:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, let's all take a moment to feel deeply, deeply sorry for whoever has to deal with him in person tonight. Or if you're unable to summon such sympathy, at least feel profoundly grateful that every moment of your life has led to this moment in which you are not the person who has to deal with Trump tonight.

Was just saying something similar to Mom. I expect he's looking at the media coming out of this and losing it. I'm also betting that all cell phones have been taken out of the vicinity.
posted by Jalliah at 8:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


how does this evening's performance contribute to the psychological ruination and unmaking of Donald Trump?

Don't fucking care as long as he doesn't get to be president and his spawn don't get to slaughter any more endangered species. Ideally, I'd like them all locked up in the same cell (sans Tiffany, who was hostage at the debate, and Barron, who can have the cyber) and everyone forced to sign an NDA against them is allowed to piss in their cell when they're sleeping, but I'll make a deal here.
posted by holgate at 8:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


That, plus 'cocaine' is trending on Twitter tonight.

"She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie..."
posted by holgate at 8:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


Using jet fuel for a decongestant is not illegal!
posted by clavdivs at 8:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]




>let's all take a moment to feel deeply, deeply sorry for whoever has to deal with him in person tonight.

Let's not. Anybody dealing with him personally is riding the gravy train and can stop anytime they want to go get a real job.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Me just back from parallel universe Metafilter on Bizarro World and Trump am big winner.
posted by morspin at 8:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


When your day is done
and you want to tweet on
cocaine
posted by tonycpsu at 8:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]


Oh wow, Ford is fact checking Trump directly now and tweeting that their plant relocation won't cost any American jobs. This is so brutal for him in reality, but will it play in 2016?
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


I hope that 100 million Americans saw what I saw tonight - a debate where one person looked and sounded fit to be President, and one looked like the sort of person the Secret Service would be worried about if he was spotted in the crowd at the inauguration.

Two more like that, please.
posted by Devonian at 8:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]


I think she killed him. She did well, he was so much worse than I though he'd be.

He wore an ill fitting suit with a crooked tie, acted like a cokehead and ranted incoherently. He didn't make any points and she shut him down.
posted by bongo_x at 8:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hey, so was I just way too drunk to focus, or was most of Trump's verbal output total word salad?

I know some other people have spoken of their angst and frustration at watching this event, but honestly I was laughing pretty hard at some of the absurd arrangements that came out of that guy's mouth.
posted by indubitable at 8:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


Won a "MAKE AMERICA GAY AGAIN" hat at our Debate Viewing party by getting Bingo on my Debate Card. These hats are made in the USA as well.

Also bought some more Hillary pins, and gave one to a cashier who missed the debates because of work, but liked Hillary.

Had to stay sober, but now I have 57208302 units of caffeine pulsing through my veins, and perfect for my Calculus homework!
posted by spinifex23 at 8:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


No, it was word salad. Impossible to parse and gave me a headache (but that's how I like it, I'm a coherence masochist)
posted by iffthen at 8:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


I heard about ten minutes of it, listening in the car. Followed the rest online in various places.

Clinton was awkward, hokey, and utterly unafraid. "Trumped Up Trickle Down" - come on. Eye-rollingly bad.

Her letting Trump talk over her until it was time to not let him talk over her, and making The Donald shut up once he realized she wasn't paying attention to him, masterful.

Needling and needling him, deliberately, openly, and laughing in his face when he took the bait, time and again, and used it as a fulcrum to push her own vision.

"Trump thinks global warming is a Chinese hoax" - true, and LOL!

FARK.com has a fond term for Obama - "The Troll in Chief."

I think we've found a worthy successor.

FARK is a lot more left-leaning than it used to be, but they're still cynical and crude and right now? They're all busting a gut over there at The Donald's epic fail. They already have the template for creating your own trump-fail meme, similar to Biden taking down Palin.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Holt: "If you lose, will you accept the results of the election?"
Clinton: "Yes."
Trump: "CLINTON AND OBAMA JUST TODAY LEGALIZED 800, NO 1500 ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE ABOUT TO BE DEPORTED SO THEY COULD VOTE FOR HER!"
posted by dirigibleman at 8:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]




So here's the thing. What I said to my wife (who just couldn't bear to watch the vile talking yam after 20 minutes and walked away to do something better with her time) was that things ended up as I was hoping they would, rather than as I feared they might. Hillary did an awesome job of poking and prodding and then just sitting back and letting him implode and come across as a loud mouthed boorish bully. And at this point, I doubt that would cost him much, because the most solid of his support are deplorables who WANT the angry bully to make them feel better about their waning privilege... but that I couldn't possibly see this convincing anyone neutral.

Then the CNN debate-viewers poll mentioned above was reported with heavy disclaimers about it being Democrat-biased by population. They said 41% Democrat, 26% Republican, so presumably 33% undecided. The poll was 62% to 27% for Clinton as the winner -- which lines up pretty well with “he’s not going to lose much, but it may send a lot of folks her way”.

It's just one poll. But put yourself into the minds of the many much less politically addicted people for whom this was the first time they started paying any real attention to the election and what they saw tonight. This was a disaster for Trump amongst the undecideds, and that's where elections are won in the modern era. Don't panic, this wasn't the wipeout for Clinton that some of us think it is -- that's just our own fears and anxieties.

Will it move the polls much? Probably not, and we can all weep quietly in the corner about what that means. But what my gut feeling says is in the national polls over the next few days we'll see Trump level or maybe down 1%, and Hillary up 2-3. THAT, in modern races, is huge.

This was a good night. Have another drink and relax.

(This commentary brought to you by Rittenhouse and Dolin Rouge.)
posted by jammer at 8:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


I do think "trumped up trickle down" was a bad line but it won't be the takeaway from this debate. I think the preparedness quip will be the takeaway.
posted by dis_integration at 8:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


10 demerits for mentioning the ghastly FARK.
posted by clavdivs at 8:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump Adviser Roger Stone Lashes Out At “Pathetic” Debate Moderator Lester Holt: “The Debate Was Two On One”

Oh the whining. When you're complaining about the refs...
posted by chris24 at 9:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


This was a good night. Have another drink and relax.

Done, and d--... working on it!
posted by tonycpsu at 9:00 PM on September 26, 2016


watched the debate with zero social media on a network without any on screen commentary, I was very afraid that Donald's objectively ridiculous performance was going to go over well and hillarys objectively pretty good performance was going to be not enough. I can never tell, I mean the be honest I thought he came off as slightly less deplorable than usual, so I expected a different reaction. Thank goodness. But is this just because people were not paying attention before?
posted by skewed at 9:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


TRUMP/COCAINE 2016!
posted by vrakatar at 9:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm reading /r/the_donald so you don't have to.

So, first, a lot of them call Trump "God Emperor," if you really needed a baseline for what we're dealing with.

Many are saying Holt was biased against Trump because Clinton didn't get any hard questions. Also thinking that she knew the questions ahead of time as her reason for doing well. But, reiterating my earlier post, they seem to believe that she used up her entire "arsenal/ammo" on this first debate so when the 2nd and 3rd debates come around, and she's asked about Benghazi and Libya, she won't have anything to say.
posted by girlmightlive at 9:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


Tonight was a complete disaster for Trump

1) He failed to look Presidential - He was constantly flustered and tossing word salad
2) He failed to look prepared - just going #YOLO and winging it is not a great strategy for being president this is not a "fake it til you make it job"
3) He failed to look like a winner - Trump's mystique is about being a winner and that illusion took a beating tonight
4) He showed weakness - He was forced to back down continually when confronted by facts

Combined with basically admitting that he's willing to cheat the system in order to avoid paying his fair share and I can't imagine this going worse for him. And there is an extended period between now and the 2nd debate (which also is a bad format for him) for the media to disect his failures.
posted by vuron at 9:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


Just woke up from a nice dream about Double Gloucester, Branston pickle and Melton Mowbray pork pies. Hoping Hillary won, and that at least two of the items I dreamt about are in my fridge. Scrolling while shuffling towards kitchen...
posted by Wordshore at 9:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


A few comments have mentioned that they can't stomach watching and listening to Trump at the same time.

Several weeks ago I read a comment (maybe here, I don't remember) saying that Donald Trump has chicken eyes. Chicken. Eyes. Seriously, google some pictures. The man has the eyes of a chicken.

Anyway, it's helped. Every time I see footage of him I make it my goal to focus on the chicken eyes until I can almost see the rest of the chicken materialize around him. It's like a fun little game I play while I'm hurting myself with TV.

(With apologies to chickens everywhere.)
posted by phunniemee at 9:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]


The 1% solution!
posted by clavdivs at 9:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


girlmightlive, they sound like blinkered fools.
posted by defenestration at 9:03 PM on September 26, 2016


I thought he came off as slightly less deplorable than usual

That's how pundits think -- as long as he beats his baseline, he won. I think voters expect more, and they wanted someone who wasn't deplorable.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


3) He failed to look like a winner - Trump's mystique is about being a winner and that illusion took a beating tonight

That's my take. I've been slightly down about recent polls but this helps.

I think 90% of his appeal is alpha dog posturing. He looked like a loser tonight and people were laughing at him. He cannot win with that. He's backed into a corner. I feel like this may have been more of a game changer than people are thinking because someone just pulled back the curtain on the great and powerful Oz.
posted by bongo_x at 9:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]


He did pull out the word braggadocios though.

I was expecting Julie Andrews to break out in song.
posted by JackFlash at 9:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I know Chris Matthews gets deserved flak but he's not letting Kellyanne Conway and her shit eating grin get away with anything.
posted by zutalors! at 9:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


I want to second the approach My Dad mentioned and encourage reading people like David Frum (reasonably intelligent neocon) on Twitter.

Mr Frum links this video of a Bill Clinton debate performance and says "Hillary never learned Bill's music". He has a point. I haven't seen Hillary completely knock it out of the park to that level, and I'm kinda hoping she does at the Town Hall debate.

On that note, if anyone can link conservative commentators who are generally coherent and make good points, I'd appreciate it.
posted by iffthen at 9:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]




Best moment of the debate for me was when trump was bloviating about something, and our Hillary was just giving him an indulgent look, and Boy said "omg mom, that's the look you give me right before I get grounded." And minutes later, Hillary dropped major shade, and Boy was all, "See? Grounded."

I laughed.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [116 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway is tenacious but seems pretty clearly to be just doing a job.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow people actually think Benghazi and 33,000 emails actually have legs?

The Trump Foundation shenanigans have basically eliminated the Clinton Foundation question marks so it's hard to imagine what sort of gotchas Trump is going to pull out.

Maybe Whitewater?

Sounds like they are hoping to use Lewinsky in the next couple of debates because apparently Donald moralizing about Bill's behavior seems like a big winner.
posted by vuron at 9:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]




lol, nah we heard you, Trump. That's your real problem.
posted by defenestration at 9:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [45 favorites]


HA HA HA Trump is being every 10-year-old boy who ever lost a video game.

"Hey, you guys ganged up on me"

"My controller was broken! Not fair!"
posted by mmoncur at 9:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [50 favorites]


A defective mic would've been his best ally.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


"I had a defective mic - it kept saying these lame-ass waffling things instead of the awesome takedowns I actually said. Also, I think my mic was racist." (fake)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [44 favorites]


Reflective mike; defective Don.
posted by defenestration at 9:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here is the best part - this was Team Clinton's best guess at how the debate would go. She had to rely on a lot of improv, and pick-and-choose from a menu of options depending on how he would react.

The next debate, based on this one, is going to be more of the same. Donnie in the Primaries, roaring out talking-points. A specific few he's hung up on, in terms of policy, and a specific few he will lash out at, as it's hurtful.

She. Will. Be. So. Ready. In professional wrestling they have a term for what's about to go down - "squash match." Where a superstar utterly annihilates some poor jobber.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


I think trump pulled off the perfect rope-a-dope minus the rope-a.
posted by mazola at 9:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


The most wildly left wing person I follow on Twitter (most outspoken critic of Obama I know) just said he was actually proud to be standing with HRC tonight. Words matter.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]


He looked like a loser tonight and people were laughing at him. He cannot win with that

A lot of what I'm reading is leaning more along the lines of he looked bad, like really bad and it was funny. If he's moved beyond 'omg he's horrible and what a horrible thing he said ' to 'omg loser, ha ha ' this is a very good thing. Not only is it a tried and true tactic for dealing with people of his *ahem* temperament in this case in particular being laughed and made fun of (losing perceived power and stature) will drive him up the wall and potentially make him do more stupid things to prove himself and save face.

I hope this is a start of a downward vicious cycle for him.
posted by Jalliah at 9:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [33 favorites]




My other hope is that the press smells blood in the water and turns on Trump.
posted by bongo_x at 9:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh wow, Ford is fact checking Trump directly now and tweeting that their plant relocation won't cost any American jobs. This is so brutal for him in reality, but will it play in 2016?

I fucking hope it does. The facts are straightforward: Ford decided to build its smaller cars in Mexico because it sells more small cars to Latin America than to the US, and the margins are tighter. It decided to move the Flint factory over to build the Ranger and Bronco, because there was consumer demand in the US for small pickups and small SUVs after a hiatus. The UAW signed up for that move. Americans want to be able to buy $20k small cars, and you simply cannot do that by paying less than $19/hr in Michigan.

I had this argument with Trumpkins on Twitter, and they basically said that Ford should go to the South and pay non-union wages of $11/hr instead. That's where they are. They cannot compute the idea that there is some relationship between the cost of a thing and the wages paid to the people who make that thing.
posted by holgate at 9:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]




Missed the debate live, so I'm only catching up now. I think I'd better leave the raw video and most of these 17 bajillion comments to review over coffee tomorrow, but my anxiety couldn't resist at least scanning the news before bed.

The consensus outside the blue seems to be that while Clinton perhaps failed to smash it quite as much as hoped/expected, she also definitely didn't blow it, either. She just needed to show up and be the grown-up in the room, and it sounds like that's what happened.

That sounds plenty good enough to me. Just be your wonky self, stay normal and sane and let the crazy person implode by comparison.

Going forward, just as long as her campaign can stay cohesive and not run out of dextromethorphan, she really only needs to keep saying "Please proceed, Donald" for another month or so.

This is gonna work out all right, kids. No nightmares tonight.
posted by rokusan at 9:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


The next debate, based on this one, is going to be more of the same. Donnie in the Primaries, roaring out talking-points. A specific few he's hung up on, in terms of policy, and a specific few he will lash out at, as it's hurtful.

I disagree pretty strongly. If the polls shift towards Clinton at all between now and next week Trump will change up his approach. I would expect it to be much more personal and much more of an attempt at a sustained attack on her personally and her family (ie blowjobs). I don't expect it will be successful but I think he'd try it.
posted by Justinian at 9:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]




Here is the best part - this was Team Clinton's best guess at how the debate would go. She had to rely on a lot of improv, and pick-and-choose from a menu of options depending on how he would react.

Yeah, she gets to hone her steel for almost two whole weeks, and his team's still going to be scrambling to find him safety scissors.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I don't think the tax thing will hurt him, or really any stance he took. I think what will hurt him is just him being an ass.
posted by corb at 9:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yeah, she gets to hone her steel for almost two whole weeks

The next debate is one week from today, if you are on the east coast.
posted by Justinian at 9:19 PM on September 26, 2016


Belated impressions:

Overall, I feel good about how that went. At least, I'm less anxious than I was before the debate (although some of that might be the carbo-loading and the booze). And I'm heartened to see the media actually acknowledging that Clinton "won" this one handily.

Anecdotally, I'm also encouraged by what I've seen on Facebook: a lot of my Bernie-voting friends who were vehemently anti-Clinton two months ago seem to be slowly coming 'round. In particular, the blatant sexism against her (from Trump, from the media, from other Internet randos) seems to be moving the needle with a lot of women.

I will be monitoring the post-debate polls with cautious optimism.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


NY Times calling it a draw, so it's official: she fucking crushed him.
posted by Artw at 9:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [84 favorites]


I think the choice is now pretty clear: are you going to vote for someone who's been fighting ISIS for their entire adult life or someone who's never had an adult life?
posted by uosuaq at 9:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [46 favorites]


The consensus outside the blue seems to be that while Clinton perhaps failed to smash it quite as much as hoped/expected, she also definitely didn't blow it, either. She just needed to show up and be the grown-up in the room, and it sounds like that's what happened.

I think she did better than that. She's not Bill Clinton, she's not Barack Obama, but she did very well. He just did incredibly badly. She would have won anyway.
posted by bongo_x at 9:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


"It decided to move the Flint factory over to build the Ranger and Bronco, because there was consumer demand in the US for..."

check your facts and pass the bootles
posted by clavdivs at 9:21 PM on September 26, 2016


Oh wow, Ford is fact checking Trump directly now and tweeting that their plant relocation won't cost any American jobs.

Ford Management and Ford Labor in lockstep opposition to Trump?

Well, then, I guess It Can't Happen Here. This is where I fist pump and yell "USA! USA! USA!"

If Hillary Clinton does nothing else this election cycle, taking back the title of American Patriotism for the Democratic Party will be worth it.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]




And the backing out begins:

Rudy Giuliani told us that if he were Trump, he wouldn't do more debates bc of the moderator


Fingers crossed the big whiney baby takes this to heart.
posted by Artw at 9:22 PM on September 26, 2016


When Clinton brought up Trump's "Miss Piggy and Miss Housekeeping" remarks about Alicia Machado, he looked so bewildered, asking her "Where did you dig that up?" in a wondering and plaintive way. Now it turns out that Hillary had an ad ready to go and had waited untiljust the right place in the debate to work in the reference. That's masterful; Trump never saw it coming and must feel so outplayed. Hilarious.
posted by carmicha at 9:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [129 favorites]


I think the choice is now pretty clear: are you going to vote for someone who's been fighting ISIS for their entire adult life or someone who's never had an adult life?

This would probably be more amusing if ISIS had been around long enough for anyone to have an adult life.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


To be fair Trump has insulted a LOT of women, of course he can't keep track.
posted by ckape at 9:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]


>I would expect it to be much more personal and much more of an attempt at a sustained attack on her personally and her family (ie blowjobs).

I have a fantasy in which he tries to do that and Hillary asks him which of his several arrangements with mail-order brides he'd like to compare with her marriage of forty years.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


I don't think the tax thing will hurt him, or really any stance he took.

I don't think they'll hurt him directly - his followers and the leaning-toward-Trump crowd will ignore them, and the voting-for-Hillary crowd will smirk over them but that's a short-term glee. However, they'll provide great fodder for Hillary's next wave of campaign ads, and those might convince some of the undecided voters. (I can hope, anyway.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Justinian- the debate next week is the VP debate, the town hall debate isn't until the 9th

Which is a long time to be stuck with a loser tag
posted by vuron at 9:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I also suspect Trump is going to get vicious and personal; he suggested as much when he whined about how he could have said some meaner things, but oh, the restraint! He nobly refrained! Well, go ahead, dude. That'll sure convince people you have the "best temperament!" It'll really win over those undecideds to see you dragging out decades-old scandals! And it's a can of worms he really shouldn't want to open, given his own messy personal life. Someone with a more spotless personal life could maybe get away with it. Trump certainly can't.
posted by yasaman at 9:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yeah, she gets to hone her steel for almost two whole weeks

The next debate is one week from today, if you are on the east coast


Vice Presidential debate is the 4th...she doesn't come back until Oct 9.
posted by zutalors! at 9:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Justinian- the debate next week is the VP debate, the town hall debate isn't until the 9th

Oh! Sweet, we get to see Kaine tear apart Pence while looking like your kindly uncle.
posted by Justinian at 9:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


I go back to the comment regarding the 400lb person sitting on the bed potentially cyber attacking America..I lost my breath with that comment ...OMG Trump just demonized an entire group of Americans...obese/fat/overweight persons...however you look at it that's a large (no pun intended) swath of people in this country. I was speechless.
posted by robbyrobs at 9:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]




Now it turns out that Hillary had an ad ready to go and had masterfully found just the right place in the debate to work in the reference. That's masterful; Trump never saw it coming and must feel so outplayed. Hilarious.

It's sort of like Scrooge and the ghosts of Christmas. But he isn't changing, the ghosts don't want him to, and frankly the story ends best if he lies disgraced and forgotten as the Cratchets eat dinner in peace.
posted by codacorolla at 9:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Comment from a cousin while watching the debate: " Maybe Trump needs to brag every thirty seconds or else he catches on fire."
posted by Jalliah at 9:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [29 favorites]




check your facts and pass the bootles

From the Freep. Focus and C-Max go to Mexico, Ranger and Bronco come back to Michigan.

This is how it is. Every sub-$20k car apart from a smattering of low-end Chevys will be built in Mexico, because you cannot sell a car for less than $20k in the US and pay a decent local wage. Parts plus labour plus margin.
posted by holgate at 9:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Also a town hall debate where the candidates don't directly address each other but are asked questions by audience members makes for a challenging playing field for attacking the other Candidate.

Questioner X: So Trump, you've said repeatedly that Mexicans are primarily thugs and rapists why are you so racist?

Trump: I'm not Racist and did you know that Bill Clinton had sexual relations with a white house intern? I'm scandalized by the information from nearly 20 year ago.

Questioner Y: So how about your relationships over the years

Trump: No not going to answer that question
posted by vuron at 9:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I actually thought Trump looked composed and presidential in the first few minutes. Then he exploded like the Death Star.
posted by guiseroom at 9:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Raucous night at our house. Very diverse queer crowd. I had absolutely no time to check in on the thread, but there was a great deal of drinking, a shit-ton of carbs, a bit of screaming, a lot of shushing and no one passed out. SUCCESS! I'm looking forward to reading the thread in the morning.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


What's less presidential that having a one-sided feud with Rosie O'Donnell in 2016? I'm still reeling.
posted by vathek at 9:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [32 favorites]


"Should not get lost in the noise: Trump did not dispute he pays zero federal income tax." --@stuartpstevens

Contrast with Clinton, sure, she's a millionaire, but she's released her returns proving she and Bill paid every fucking dime on those millions in income.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think I accidentally false flagged some Trump supporters with a post I made on Matt Walsh's Facebook page. I posted:

Clearly in the tank for Trump but really, you think at any point Trump was winning? Did you start drinking before it started? He looked like a scared little boy as soon as he started walking on stage. He didn't even make it half way. Trump was 100% on his game tonight and you just saw his best. A complete and total failure with no composure. A deplorable disgrace.

Oddly enough it's getting some likes. I think when I wrote the in the tank part it comes across like I'm for Trump but what I really meant was that Matt Walsh was in the tank. I feel dirty now.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]




Does Clinton saying that Trump doesn't and hasn't paid income tax suggest that her campaign actually has his returns?

If so that could be an interesting turn of events because basically all it would take is for a data dump to happen between now and November and the press would be all over him.
posted by vuron at 9:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Biden so completely rocked the Veep debates, this will be different, tho. Two Governors, one successful, one... well, it's Pence. Senators know how to go for the kill. I'm kinda worried this will end up a "Well, we agree to disagree!" kind of debate. Kaine needs to get on Pence for his failures, and Pence is not a doofus like Ryan or Palin, and will be able to maneuver and counter.

On the other hand, this may be their rope-a-dope moment - "PENCE WINS DEBATE BY ALMOST EQUALING KAINE" will be the talking point, snap polls show Clinton going down in flames, and then Hilldawg comes out with the haymakers.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


he looked so bewildered, asking her "Where did you dig that up?" in a wondering and plaintive way.

That was telling - he can trot out the 'I never said that' line for things he knows the context of, because he's got some sort of backstory, however fictitious, about why he didn't say that or negated it later or can put some spin on it, and he's probably denied it before and it hasn't done any harm. But something specific he's got no idea about, he doesn't know whether it's on tape of him saying it to the Pope or what.

That's something he has and can have no defence against, and he knows it, and now he knows that Team Clinton double-knows it.

Which is going to eat at him before the next debate.
posted by Devonian at 9:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]




On CNN Dana Bash was trying to explain how Trump's interruptions were particularly offensive to women. Trump supporter Jefffrey Lord interupted her.
posted by marxchivist at 9:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [167 favorites]




Does Clinton saying that Trump doesn't and hasn't paid income tax suggest that her campaign actually has his returns?

He had to release his returns in the late 70's to file for casino licenses. He paid no income tax in 78 and 79 and only a tiny amount in the few years before that.

Those are the returns being used as speculation that he pays no income tax now - a point that he doesn't refute at all, and his quick answer about how paying no taxes "makes [him] smart" implies that he's continued that practice, finding loopholes and tax shelters to avoid paying income tax.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump Wow, did great in the debate polls (except for @CNN - which I don't watch). Thank you!

First tweet from Trump's phone post-debate. You know he had to bargain with whoever had his phone. 'Look, I'll be nice I promise. See. I sent a very nice tweet.'
posted by sporkwort at 9:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Thornton McEnery on Twitter: We should all stop and frisk Donald Trump's syntax.
posted by iffthen at 9:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]




Tremendous clip of Trump interrupting Hillary 28 times during the debates and pouting like a child

That's really powerful when it's all put together like that. And holy heck I can relate. How many meetings have I had to do this? And her tactic for dealing with it was right on.
posted by Jalliah at 9:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


What's less presidential that having a one-sided feud with Rosie O'Donnell in 2016? I'm still reeling.

It's the shouting-at-a-chair routine from the 2012 RNC except that Trump thinks he's actually talking to someone.
posted by XMLicious at 9:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Does Clinton saying that Trump doesn't and hasn't paid income tax suggest that her campaign actually has his returns?


Was kinda wondering this too, since she sounded fairly confident in suggesting that he pays no federal income tax. Maybe they've talked to someone that's seen them, or done enough forensics of their own to come to that conclusion. Seems pretty risky to actually have a copy of his returns.

Maybe you could argue that the tax returns are more powerful as an unknown specter looming over him, provided people keep asking about them.
posted by strange chain at 9:43 PM on September 26, 2016


@realDonaldTrump Wow, did great in the debate polls (except for @CNN - which I don't watch). Thank you!

First tweet from Trump's phone post-debate. You know he had to bargain with whoever had his phone. 'Look, I'll be nice I promise. See. I sent a very nice tweet.'


What polls is he talking about? I've come across a Time online click one which has trump way ahead but those can be brigaded so those don't count Donald.
posted by Jalliah at 9:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


"because you cannot sell a car for less than $20k in the US and pay a decent..."

...billion and a half for new plants in Mexico, that would make it cheaper, production wise, and the oddles on stuff like safety and comprehensive benefits. GM spent 300 million on a single die for hoods...check your facts because Flint is a GM town not Ford. Not five counties cheese were making here.
The real cost saver is phasing out labor or not replacing those lost jobs with new hires because, Ya know, CHEAPER.
posted by clavdivs at 9:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Having caught up on the Clinton trouncing - I'm curious what the strategy is for debate 2. Th media narrative (which I realize is skewed, and not reflective of reality, but still important) for Obama / Romney was an underdog story. Trump is now in the same position here. If he comes back and does respectably in any fashion, then he has won. I wonder what the Clinton camp is doing with regards to that?
posted by codacorolla at 9:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump Wow, did great in the debate polls (except for @CNN - which I don't watch). Thank you!

The polls, none of them.
posted by NMcCoy at 9:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


> Biden so completely rocked the Veep debates, this will be different, tho. Two Governors, one successful, one... well, it's Pence. Senators know how to go for the kill. I'm kinda worried this will end up a "Well, we agree to disagree!" kind of debate. Kaine needs to get on Pence for his failures, and Pence is not a doofus like Ryan or Palin, and will be able to maneuver and counter.


Um, Tim Kaine is currently a Senator.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yeah the Time poll is getting some serious /pol/tard brigading.

Basically they know he lost badly but if they can generate some artificially good results for Trump they can dispute because that's just the way modern politics works where a subjective opinion can overwhelm objective measurements.
posted by vuron at 9:47 PM on September 26, 2016


What polls is he talking about?

The people on his plane.
posted by AndrewInDC at 9:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


The additional good news is that I expect the Town Hall format to be the most advantageous for Hillary - she is significantly better at connecting one on one than she is at giving speeches from behind a lectern.
posted by modernnomad at 9:48 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump Wow, did great in the debate polls

Sez who?
posted by nubs at 9:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]




Does Clinton saying that Trump doesn't and hasn't paid income tax suggest that her campaign actually has his returns?

Educated guess, the education coming in part from all the actual billionaires in NYC and beyond who know Trump.
posted by holgate at 9:49 PM on September 26, 2016


Pence is an ignoramus, but he's an idiot within conventional confines, not really comparable with Trump or even Palin. Kaine should beat him in a debate, but it's not going to move the polls, much less the media narrative. A conventional VP debate against the insanity of 2016 can't compare, much as it might reassure.

Chuck Todd is sure to declare it a draw regardless.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Because when it comes to running a successful Presidential campaign, you wanna listen to Giuliani.
posted by defenestration at 9:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]


If he comes back and does respectably in any fashion, then he has won. I wonder what the Clinton camp is doing with regards to that?

He cannot do well in a 90-minute televised debate with Hillary Clinton any more than he can play a Charlie Parker solo on an alto sax. He is not experienced at this, he lacks all background knowledge, and he lacks the focus to stay on task. Tonight was not an accident. This is not a ball game. He sucks.
posted by argybarg at 9:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [62 favorites]


The Riker Googling twitter account has declared a win for Hillary.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's tariff proposal would be a massive tax increase on the middle class and it won't bring back jobs. We have big tariffs on athletic shoes, but they still get made in Vietnam. You end up paying $15-20/pair when you buy shoes. Now imagine if this applied to everything you bought.
posted by humanfont at 9:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]




I'm looking forward to the Kaine-Pence debate so much. Kaine, like Clinton, is a former trial lawyer; he's used to taking hostile questions and thinking on his feet. Pence had a private law practice for a few years but dropped it for politics as soon as he could; his main career history is as a right-wing radio show host, where he could just cut the mic when someone asked him questions he didn't care for.

Also, Tim Kaine likes Hillary, has known and worked with her for years; he can effectively stump for her. He can rattle off her policies and why he supports them, and what he'll do to help make her plans come to fruition. Pence and Trump apparently refer to each other by last names (at least, Pence does), and Pence has to spend a notable amount of his interview time waffling over why whatever The Donald said wasn't as horrible as it sounded.

Pence might be able to hold his own in a debate - obviously, he's faced off against political opponents before - but I have doubts that he can do so effectively while supporting Trump. I suspect his most successful moments will be when he falls back on the ultra-conservative Republican party line in areas that directly contradict Trump.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


Anyone know of a torrent link? I would love to download and watch later.
posted by Meatbomb at 9:54 PM on September 26, 2016


There isn't a lot of evidence that Presidential debates have much impact on the outcomes of races (but honestly tonight was a historically lopsided outcome). VP debates have even less impact on the race.

But basically the entire debate will be about whether Pence can do an adequate job of defending Trump because Pence brings zero to the table.

I like Kaine but I doubt he can prevent the debate from being a snore fest.

Hopefully Kaine can pull off a Lloyd Bentsen style zinger though because that would be kind of cool
posted by vuron at 9:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


In addition to the coke nose, his eyes seem really, really pink to me. Like bloodshot and fucked up.
posted by Artw at 9:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is an ignoramus, but he's an idiot within conventional confines

Whereas Trump is an intercontinental ballistic nuclear idiot
posted by XMLicious at 9:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


I've watch this clip about 20 times now. It where she's looking straight into the camera as he's blabbering.
posted by Jalliah at 9:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [52 favorites]


I wish we could have seen the expressions on the faces of each candidate's retinue. There was a camera pointed at the audience from center stage--we saw its POV at the beginning and end--so maybe there's b-roll of Bill and Chelsea proudly beaming, Ivanka looking discomfited, Melania starring expressionless, etc. There were a few times Trump or Clinton seemed to be looking at someone specific, and I'd like to know the context.
posted by carmicha at 9:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Powers That Be are totally done with the United States. They no longer need us to be a world super power, they've stripped our economy, we are a shell. That's how we get Hillary and Trump on that stage tonight. It's controlled chaos and no matter who wins the election, we'll likely come undone as a nation and a people and an economy. It will look like we only have ourselves to blame for getting to this point, and in the aftermath no one will be thinking very clearly...

The truth, is we only get an absolute farce of an election like this one if the outcome truly does not matter. If there was still money or power at stake, Trump would never have been allowed to run.

I'm interested to see where the main power players appear after this, I suspect they'll be openly wealthy and openly stateless - so a global industry of some sort - and a weak United States furthers their goals.

It's totally Game of Thrones and utterly fascinating as long as you don't take it personally and can manage to ignore the human suffering involved in all of this.

We live in interesting times.
posted by jbenben at 9:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


check your facts because Flint is a GM town not Ford.

I stand corrected: the Ford plant is in Wayne, not Flint. The basic point still stands: it is economically unfeasible to build cars that sell at a certain price point where the market is more Latin America than US and pay wages that fit the UAW contract. The Versa and Fit and Fiesta and Fiat 500 and many others are already made in Mexico. The cars that can be feasibly built in the US while paying a living local wage are ones with a higher retail price and margin than compacts and subcompacts. There's a reason why BMW builds SUVs in Spartanburg.
posted by holgate at 9:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]



The Powers That Be are totally done with the United States. They no longer need us to be a world super power, they've stripped our economy, we are a shell. That's how we get Hillary and Trump on that stage tonight


What is this comment even about


It's totally Game of Thrones and utterly fascinating


No, Game of Thrones is fiction.
posted by zutalors! at 9:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [100 favorites]


What is this comment even about

dunno but Adam Curtis Markov Chain is my new post-fact band
posted by defenestration at 10:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


No, Game of Thrones is fiction.

And Game of Nuclear Codes is fucking terrifying.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:00 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


I see someone is in denial about Hillary's dragons.
posted by asteria at 10:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


He could just have a cold, but I'd like to see him admiting to that now.
posted by Artw at 10:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


The entire Kaine/Pence debate can be Kaine needling Pence on "your running mate said [outrageous thing X], what do you say to that?" Pence clearly has enough trouble with those questions in interviews. He's stuck either defending Trump or looking like an idiot (why not both?).
posted by zachlipton at 10:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


Does Clinton saying that Trump doesn't and hasn't paid income tax suggest that her campaign actually has his returns?

Could be, or it could be that they're taking a calculated risk and going ahead and assuming that this is the case. Rich people know how other rich people operate. People who can afford talented accountants know how to get out of paying taxes to the greatest degree possible. Except when they know that they're going to be facing intense public scrutiny (like, you know, when one of them is a former president and the other is running for that very same job) — in which case they instruct their accountants to keep everything above-board and as transparent as possible.

A moronic, impulsive, walking-id hothead like Donald Trump has no such restraint, and I'll bet a nickel that Clinton's people know that. So my guess it that they figure he paid accountants to find every loophole (legal and otherwise) to find ways to avoid paying taxes. Sure, they don't actually have his tax returns in hand, but they're in roughly the same income bracket; they know how the game is played. They're just smart enough to know that they can't afford to play it (PR-wise), while Trump is stupid and arrogant enough to believe he can get away with it.

Look at it this way: Clinton's people can go ahead and confidently say that Trump paid zero taxes. He can shrug and say "ehh, yeah, I didn't, because I'm smart," or he can deny it, and then the burden's on him to prove that he didn't. How does he prove he didn't? He has to produce the returns.

This former Bernie Bro* has to admit, that's pretty goddamn brilliant.

(* Remind me to get back to you all about how attacking us is really counter-productive, and how we're not all bad, and w're eon your side, and re-litigating the primaries is really a dick move, and you really need to stop it, because you're just being a bunch of jerks, and I don't know who the hell you're talking to, because we're going to pull the lever for Hillary, so please for the love of all that's sacred and holy, STFU already about "Bernie bros" because frankly the very term offends me, but then again I'm a husband, father, 41 years old and a business owner so maybe I don't actually fit the profile, but anyway stop pigeonholing us because you're doing the very thing you claim not to like, okthxbai)
posted by CommonSense at 10:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


jbenben, which "powers that be" exactly? Be specific.

It would be great if you could back up some of those vague, spooky claims with evidence, otherwise you're keeping the discourse at Donald Trump levels, and we're sorta trying to avoid that here on the blue.
posted by iffthen at 10:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [36 favorites]


palindromic: "Luckily, oil is super easy to take, and theft of natural resources is not a war crime."

Leaving aside whether this would be possible; just imagine the effect on the US oil extraction industry if the US had stolen all the oil.And all the high paying jobs in those industries.

cacofonie: "Not sure those 11 hours were her finest hour though...."

That is a pretty unfair goal post move. Like it isn't enough she be up for eleven hours we also want those eleven hours to be her best hour?

Justinian: "The way Clinton wins is not by winning over Trump voters. It is by solidifying her own support and getting just 2-3% of those folks voting for Johnson back."

Convincing 2-5% of Trump supporters to stay home would help alot too.

CheeseDigestsAll: "The main critique I had was that she let Trump of the hook on too many crazy statements. "

The debate is time limited; better to get the fact/talking point out there, maybe make a rebuttal and then move on rather than get bogged down in "you did", "No I didn't"
posted by Mitheral at 10:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Powers That Be are totally done with the United States. They no longer need us to be a world super power, they've stripped our economy, we are a shell.

Oh shit this comment made it through the 80s timewarp and The Powers That Be are led by the juggernaut Japanese economy rather than China's.

And we all know that Japan established a cultural and economic hegemony in the intervening decades, and their economy didn't run out of gas and have virtually no growth for almost 20 years.
posted by tclark at 10:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


Maybe the Clinton camp could point out that Trump looked a little under the weather, hopefully it's not pneumonia or something serious!
posted by vuron at 10:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


How many people see Donald Trump's tax returns each year? Some firm prepares them, they're sent to the IRS and to New York State, they're audited. Tax returns attached to a celebrity are going to stick in peoples' minds. Even more memorable if there's a big zero on the front. There may be 500 people who could confirm Trump pays no taxes. There may be 100 who could provide documentation.

I agree, the dynamics in the debate segment on the taxes were striking: Hillary oddly specific and confident, Donald muted, trying to shift to emails.

HRC knows he pays no income tax.
posted by Emmy Noether at 10:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


The truth, is we only get an absolute farce of an election like this one if the outcome truly does not matter. If there was still money or power at stake, Trump would never have been allowed to run.

Or maybe, just maybe, there are no "powers that be," and America really is a democracy, and American voters really are in charge of their own fate.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [36 favorites]




The truth, is we only get an absolute farce of an election like this one if the outcome truly does not matter.

I refer you to my previous thread comment on this subject.
posted by Justinian at 10:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Apparently this was the most Tweeted debate ever. Even more than the Lincoln Douglas debates.
posted by mazola at 10:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [90 favorites]


I wish....

I was trying to explain it to a friend the other day... I likened current events to that story arc in the Sopranos where the guy from The Terminator lost his shirt gambling with Tony and his friends, and then he had to let the guys invade his sports store, burn up all his credit, and he ended up curled up in a bottle sleeping in a tent in the sports store before losing the store entirely.

In this example the US is Robert Patrick. We gambled and we lost. That's it.
posted by jbenben at 10:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Senior Romney strategist: Trump brought 20 minutes of material to a 90 minute show.
posted by chris24 at 10:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]


and I don't know who the hell you're talking to, because we're going to pull the lever for Hillary

Well, speaking only for myself, when I talk about 'Bernie Bros' I very specifically only mean the people who have told me they aren't going to do that. Not just 'any dude who supported Bernie.'
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]


The Powers That Be are totally done with the United States. They no longer need us to be a world super power, they've stripped our economy, we are a shell.

I'd gotten the impression- and admittedly it's been a while since I've watched Angel all the way through- that they were a lot less involved than all that.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:09 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]








The poll was 62% to 27% for Clinton as the winner -- which lines up pretty well with “he’s not going to lose much, but it may send a lot of folks her way”.

Further evidence of the 27% crazification factor.
posted by joedan at 10:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


I dunno, these reputable news agencies are saying that Clinton won, but a bunch of easily-brigaded online click-polls are saying Trump landslide. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
posted by ckape at 10:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [38 favorites]


I'm a small-time business owner; our business does little over $2M in revenue. I apply for a couple of loans here and there, and for this reason or that, I need to send our taxes to companies sometimes on occasion. Banks, vendors, potential lenders (rhyme not intended).

Donald Trump is probably me times, what, 500? At least?

So I assure you that in addition to the IRS and a few accountants, there are at least 50-75 random private citizens who have seen his tax returns. VERY conservatively speaking.

They'll come out. Sooner or later. The right person just needs to be paid off.
posted by CommonSense at 10:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I'm happy not to bait any "Bernie Bros," I just want them to stop cluttering my Facebook feed calling Hillary a murderous bitch they'll never vote for.
posted by argybarg at 10:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [34 favorites]


The Powers That Be are totally done with the United States. They no longer need us to be a world super power, they've stripped our economy, we are a shell.

We're literally both the largest economy and the largest Navy in the world. China, with a population four times our own, is barely the second largest economy, after ekeing out ahead of Japan. Japan. Which has less than half our population, and still has a more serious Navy than China ever will.

The USA may eventually fall, but you know, the Assyrians? Egyptians? Byzantine Romans? Two thousand years is a good run. Let's aim for that.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


The Powers That Be are totally done with the United States.
Most of the Foreign Powers That Be are solidly behind Dishonest Don because he will finish the job of stripping our economy while he fills his pockets. Domestic Powers have plenty of resources and don't want to give it all to Evil/TrumpCorp.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:13 PM on September 26, 2016


Mod note: We are not fighting about Bernie Bros in here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [54 favorites]


Everyone who has ever spent time with a five year old hears Trump say, "I never said that," and slowly nods their heads.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


American voters really are in charge of their own fate.

To a point. It is perfectly fair to say that there was input from voters and input from committees, with the two candidates we have. It's a partially democratic process, and so it goes.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:14 PM on September 26, 2016


We're literally both the largest economy and the largest Navy in the world.

Not just the largest Navy in the world but a larger Navy than all the other navies in the world combined. And if we, today, completely disbanded the United States Air Force and scrapped every plane it flew we would still maintain the largest air force in the world in the form of the United States Navy.
posted by Justinian at 10:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [67 favorites]


Great new Clinton ad post-debate:

Donald Trump called her "Miss Piggy" and "Miss Housekeeping."

Her name is Alicia Machado.


Holy shit this ad is good.

Ads like this will turn out Latinos like me in November. Trump is so fucked and he's going to be the last one to realize it. Expect us, Donald.
posted by joedan at 10:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [78 favorites]


I'm gonna suggest that jbenben's contribution to this thread is more deraily than helpful, and note that jbenben has not provided evidence/citations as requested. Accordingly, can we stay on topic?
posted by iffthen at 10:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]


I listened to the radio not the television. I noticed no sniffling but will take everybody's word for it. Ms. Clinton sounded professional. Mr. Trump maybe should have practiced a little.

I don't remember hearing him say anything about the wall. Isn't that his big thing?
posted by bukvich at 10:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


The USA may eventually fall, but you know, the Assyrians? Egyptians? Byzantine Romans? Two thousand years is a good run. Let's aim for that.

Now might not be the best time to be talking about a thousand-year, er, reign.
posted by XMLicious at 10:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


A variety of people including Romney have done everything short of saying that there is a smoking gun that makes Trump unelectable in his tax returns. Even the Trump brothers seem to suggest that releasing Trump's taxes would have awful optics.

At this point in time I'd honestly be shocked if someone doesn't provide them to the media between now and the election. I can't imagine that he's got that reliable of a circle of trust considering he's apparently a massive douchebag in real life as well as playing one on TV.

I'm just wondering when individuals would leak the information? It seems like 2-3 weeks out from the election would be optimal in terms of having the biggest impact and the least opportunity to refute the information.
posted by vuron at 10:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]


Two thousand years! Two is greater than one.
posted by Justinian at 10:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I dunno, I'm kind of intrigued by this idea that the writers have gotten bored with America's storyline and have decided it's someone else's turn to be the main character
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


An on-topic thought: has anyone seen actual viewership numbers for TV and such or is that not available yet? Brian Selter lists some online viewership numbers on Twitter:

At least 1.6 mil people are watching the debate live on YouTube.

1.1 mil via NBC's stream,

250k via PBS,

210k via WashPost,

80k via Fox News
posted by iffthen at 10:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


The reign just got a thousand years longer!
posted by XMLicious at 10:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


I am thrilled that Trump let it slide that Hillary brought up his public tax releases from the late 70s - she mentioned him not paying income tax then, and he said that was smart (and for a lot of people in business, it's considered a smart move; for a lot of people who don't own or manage businesses, it sounds like he just said he's proud that he's guilty of tax fraud) - and plenty of people have apparently jumped on "Trump pays $0 in income tax" as a talking point, and Trump hasn't said, "no, you only have my tax records from '79 and earlier; I assure you I am now paying my fair share of taxes."

He could even be paying $0 still and still be (technically, legally) correct about that. But he let it go, probably because he doesn't pay any amount of income tax (I feel comfortable in believing that if he paid half a million in taxes last year, he'd've screeched about how he damn well DOES pay his taxes) - and thus set the ground for "Donald Trump, Tax Dodger" baiting from the media.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]


Totally sketchy Turkish news report: Minister’s leaked emails show Erdoğan family conspired into US elections:
Email traffic of Turkey’s Energy Minister and son-in-law of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Berat Albayrak, show that he along with Erdogan’s son Bilal conspired to interfere into US Congressional elections.

Albayrak’s email account was hacked by Redhack, a Turkish Marxist–Leninist-Maoist computer hacker group on Friday and the group threatened to disclose 20 GB of secret information if the Turkish government fails to release Alp Altınörs, deputy co-chairperson of the pro-Kurdish Peoples’ Democratic Party (HDP), and prize-winning novelist and journalist Aslı Erdoğan by Monday.

According to emails which was leaked on Twitter on Monday by various accounts despite government blocked Twitter accounts of Redhack on Sunday, Bilal Erdoğan sent an email to Albayrak which advises a strategy to the pro-government lobbyists in the US to target US Congresspeople who were taken to Turkey trips by sympathizers of Gülen movement in the US.
It is unclear at this time whether the alleged hackers weigh 400lbs or not.
posted by zachlipton at 10:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]


I dunno, I'm kind of intrigued by this idea that the writers have gotten bored with America's storyline and have decided it's someone else's turn to be the main character

Yeah they clearly don't have any idea what to do next
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Re: the amphetamines, many people have been saying he's been abusing Fen-Phen for a while now.

Well, the Phen, anyway - I was kinda hoping he was somehow getting the old kind with fenfluramine (which messes up your heart valves and possibly your serotonin system.)
posted by atoxyl at 10:24 PM on September 26, 2016


I make it my goal to focus on the chicken eyes

Remember that meme where Trump's eyes were replaced with his mouth and you couldn't tell?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


18 out of 20 so-called undecided Florida voters on the CNN called it for Clinton. The young woman who identified as a Bernie supporter says Clinton didn't do enough.

Four out of five dentists recommend sugarless gum. The other dentist's name is Dr Bornstein.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


At this point in time I'd honestly be shocked if someone doesn't provide them to the media between now and the election.
I wouldn't be surprised if Wikileaks has them, but with Assange totally in the tank for Trump, they no intention of ever releasing them and may even have developed some kind of 'leak-proofing' technology.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:27 PM on September 26, 2016


Man, I hope Zach Galifianakis gets props from the campaign for his great debate prep work.

Though he needs to do more uppers for the next one.
posted by bonehead at 10:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


there is a smoking gun that makes Trump unelectable in his tax returns

The thing is, there is nothing, literally nothing, including being a paid and acknowledged open agent of Vladimir Putin (which is entirely plausible from public knowledge), that would dissuade 38-40% of America from voting for Trump because of the R next to his name. We're at a point when 40% of the US would vote for Putin himself to take over the US as a vassal state if it meant Obama and the blacks were put in their rightful place. It's not clear how rationale debate can respond to the current state of American politics.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [98 favorites]


Mr. Trump maybe should have practiced a little.

He practiced enough to hold it together for a little bit but then he reverted to winging it as he always does and he went kablooie.
posted by atoxyl at 10:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


She can absolutely proclaim confidently that he pays no taxes. For one, she probably knows people who know. But the main reason is, what's he going to do, deny it? That traps him into the tax return discussion that makes him look really bad. His best play is to try to skip by the crack as fast as he can. "Whatever, next." (But he can't, because ego, so he had to throw the "smart" remark in like an idiot.)
posted by ctmf at 10:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]


Yeah they clearly don't have any idea what to do next

Hah. So of course it ends like Lost: unsatisfying and incoherent and in need of an epilogue.
posted by notyou at 10:30 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well if you're curious I decided I'd watch "highlights" as posted on various sites. Yeah, that was enough. I do think just seeing highlights that Trump doesn't come off as bad as everyone (not just here) describes him. I think in small doses he doesn't sound as crazy as he is, since he's not screaming and foaming at the mouth.

I notice there was pretty much nothing in the selected clips on foreign policy, which I gather was pretty stark in the pro-Clinton camp. The moments they chose were pretty much all about Trump's businesses, tax returns, emails, temperament, hacking.
posted by threeturtles at 10:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes i am now persuaded to vote for Hillary.. With Bernie out of the mix I was seeking an alternative to both Trump and Hillary. I seriously considered sitting out this election. My first vote was in the 1974 mid term election. Seeing Hillary tonight on stage with Trump convinced me that I must vote for Hillary.
posted by robbyrobs at 10:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [129 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: .@newtgingrich just said "a historic victory for Trump." NICE!

My puppet says I'm the best.
posted by chris24 at 10:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]


Lol, I just got a "TRUMP WON" ad shown on slate.com. So glad they're wasting their ad budget on my extremely unreceptive eyeballs.
posted by the marble index at 10:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am disappointed the "my father" segment wasn't more of a moment. Clinton talked about her dad opening a screen printing plant where he had a squeegee. Trump countered talking about about how he got a "very small loan" (multi-million dollar) from his dad to get started in business.

I believe the line should go something like: "Donald, most Americans in their 20s would kill to have a business degree from an Ivy League school and a multi-million dollar leg up from their dad. My agenda gives everyone a boost into the job market, because we don't all have multi-million dollar loans from our folks, while your plans give tax cuts to billionaires."
posted by zachlipton at 10:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]


Remember that meme where Trump's eyes were replaced with his mouth and you couldn't tell?

Prediction for Debate #3: Around minute 35, the Sandman appears and confronts Trump in full view of the viewing audience, revealing him to one and all as another of Morpheus's escaped nightmares, grown flatulent and rugose on the fears of mankind. With a wave of the Dream King's hand, he un-makes Trump into a pair of delicate porcelain doll hands sitting in an orange bird's nest, which he secrets into his night-black cloak before disappearing into thin air. Nobody knows what to think.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [87 favorites]


robbyrobs: welcome aboard!
posted by zachlipton at 10:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I missed the debate but from the recaps in this thread I gather that Trump's "we should have take their oil" made an unsurprising return visit and Clinton handled it (I'm guessing?) -- although not in the way I dreamed she would. I know it would never happen this way, but I sometimes fantasized that Clinton would respond with a West Wing-style, "what are the next ten words?" rebuttal centered around one pretty basic point: "And then what?" I mean, is the US government now going to get into the oil business and directly interfere in the free market? (Never mind the logistics and mechanics of that.) How is Exxon going to react to that? Or, is the US government just going to give the oil away to Exxon? Then, how is Sunoco, and Chevron, and Philips, and etc... going to react to that? So, then you need to do something like bid out the rights? Or maybe allocate each a share? But, one way or another, this is basically turns into some kind of giveaway to Big Oil, right? How is that supposed to be appealing?

It seems to me like one of those things that just barely sounds like a plausible slogan on first hearing, but as soon as you think about it for more than a second, it completely falls apart.
posted by mhum at 10:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]


She's going to have it so easy in the next debate, no matter the format. Trump is exactly the type of person who dwells on what he should have said, what's it called,
L'esprit de l'escalier (stairway wit?), when you think of the perfect reply...only too late.
He will lose sleep over this, and never answer a single question in the next debate -- he'll just repeat things she said in this one and roll out some zingers in reply as if he'd just thought of them. It will be a glorious unraveling and I can't wait!
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]


Chris Matthews just made the most hilarious and apropos analogy to a bullfight, with the bull kicking and charging in the beginning, but by the end too low-energy and lurching, still enraged but easily manipulated by the matador.

(Apart from actual bullfighting not being hilarious at all, of course.)
posted by XMLicious at 10:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]




So, current odds on Trump bailing on debates two and three? Anyone? Anyone?

I'm amazed Trump made it through this debate without stomping offstage in a snit.
posted by orange swan at 10:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]




To those fretting about jabs or knockouts that didn't land: one thing about the 24/7 media culture is that they don't have to all land on debate night. It's enough to put them out there and let media orgs needing clicks and views to carry them the rest of the way. We're already seeing that with the tweet follow up and probably other things we haven't noticed but the Internet has.
posted by notyou at 10:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ask and you shall receive: sniffing supercut
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]


Anyone know the deal with Grover Norquist and vaping? At first, I though it was a parody account, but apparently he's been tweeting out vaping related stuff for weeks.
posted by sideshow at 11:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Trumple-Down", surely.
posted by gurple at 11:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


The part where Donald was all "but, Sean Hannity!, I expected him to pull his light saber and shread the podium.
posted by clavdivs at 11:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]


Anyone know the deal with Grover Norquist and vaping? At first, I though it was a parody account, but apparently he's been tweeting out vaping related stuff for weeks.

Apart from the obvious, I'd say it's Norquist trying to identify a nascent form of identity politics that matches with small government fantasy of right wingers and capitalize. That is to say, intersectionality isn't only for the left.
posted by codacorolla at 11:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Anyone know the deal with Grover Norquist and vaping? At first, I though it was a parody account, but apparently he's been tweeting out vaping related stuff for weeks.

He goes to Burning Man now so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by donatella at 11:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump; "I take advantage of the laws of this country".
posted by bongo_x at 11:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anyone know the deal with Grover Norquist and vaping? At first, I though it was a parody account, but apparently he's been tweeting out vaping related stuff for weeks.

I often wondered if Norquist's single-minded focus on the whole tax-pledge business might have be indicative of an undiagnosed obsessive-compulsive disorder, and now I wonder if he might have transferred that obsession to vape culture as a new hobbyhorse. Otherwise, the earliest adopters of vaping at my work were the reddit-libertarian guys in engineering, which seems like it's right there in Norquist's wheelhouse.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


One of the things that was sort of interesting watching was that Trump had clearly been taught to pivot (dodge a question by using it as a springboard to get back to your talking points) but he only did it properly once or twice at the beginning. After that every time he pivoted, he pivoted to talking about himself. It was intriguing because it had the structure of a coached pivot but the content of a drunk frat boy trying to impress a girl -- just self-involved boasting without any real awareness that drinking 12 beers/not paying your taxes is maybe not impressive.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [74 favorites]


I think the obvious (he's getting paid) is the one to go with, because the vaping constituency is not the road to the White House (about 10m Americans according G to the CDC; too many, but still too small).
posted by notyou at 11:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just realized I pay approximately 18k$ more a year in income tax than Donald Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]


the earliest adopters of vaping at my work were the reddit-libertarian guys in engineering, which seems like it's right there in Norquist's wheelhouse.

Sadly it does seem as if vaping has become the fedora of the mouth (which is kind of a shame, because it really has helped a lot of people quit smoking)
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]


Just realized I pay approximately 18k$ more a year in income tax than Donald Trump.

That would be a fun calculator for somebody to toss up on Clinton's website!
posted by notyou at 11:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]


Sadly it does seem as if vaping has become the fedora of the mouth
Even fedoras were nice before the "reddit/libertarian/mra/engineer" guys got to them.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Actually, come to think of it, the whole "won't release my tax returns because of an audit" also deserves a "next ten words" rebuttal question. How on Earth would releasing tax returns affect an audit? The IRS already has them! That's what they're auditing! What possible explanation or clarification could he possibly give that could link the release to the audit? The IRS has already gone on the record that there are no laws or regulations preventing this.
posted by mhum at 11:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]


After that every time he pivoted, he pivoted to talking about himself. It was intriguing because it had the structure of a coached pivot but the content of a drunk frat boy trying to impress a girl

Right, this was the exact moment the debate turned into a crushing defeat. Trump had landed a couple points on the trade issue and Clinton had been on the defensive. Then Holt asked about Trump's tax returns and Clinton got back on solid footing very quickly and Trump was the one scrambling a bit. Holt then, as I feared, pivoted to Clinton's email issue. Clinton gave the best answer I've seen her give on the topic (short and succinct) and threw it back to Trump... and Trump started talking about his TAX RETURNS and shit again.

The single worst issue for Clinton and one he could hammer her on (unfairly from our point of view but stilll...) and he pivoted away from it to talk about a terrible-for-him issue.

You could see Clinton's eyes light up when that happened. She knew she had him right then.
posted by Justinian at 11:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [41 favorites]


It wasn't a new line for him, but it still stood out like a sore thumb: Donald Trump: I’m So Not Racist, I Let Blacks and Muslims Into My Golf Club:
"I opened a club, and really got great credit for it," he said. "No discrimination against African Americans, against Muslims, against anybody. And it's a tremendously successful club. And I'm so glad I did it, and I have been given great credit for what I did. And I'm very very proud of it. And that's the way I feel. That is the true way I feel."
...
In 1997, 12 years after purchasing his beloved club, Trump sued the city of Palm Beach for $100 million alleging that it was giving him trouble over a zoning issue because he let blacks and Jews into Mar-a-Lago. At the time, Abraham Foxman, the leader of the Anti-Defamation League in New York—which had previously pressured Palm Beach clubs to open their membership—was "concerned that Mr. Trump was using the charge of anti-Semitism for his own mercantile ends," according to the Wall Street Journal. He called Trump and got him to modify his charge and later praised him.

It's really not the civil rights story of our time, and surely Trump could come up with some better human-interest anecdote to illustrate his compassion and tolerance. (The butler at the club, and later in-house historian, did call President Obama a "Kenyan fraud" and call for his assassination.)

But what stands out is that every time Trump brings this story up, he insists on one thing: the credit he got. He's not proud of it because it was the right thing to do or even because it was a good business decision. It was a thing he did that people liked, and that makes him happy.
It sure sounded to me like he was about to say "and we let the Jews in too of course" but thought better of it, especially since that was part of his argument before. The fact remains that he, the same guy sued by the Nixon Administration for housing discrimination, wants "great credit" and is "very very proud" for not running a racially discriminatory club, and this is his argument for why he's great on race relations.
posted by zachlipton at 11:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]


RE: The intersectionallity of assholes: I think Hillary won this debate. I also think that trump has an advantage. The reason that I think this is that it increasingly feels as though trump is the first fully postmodern president. To explain that concept, I'll dig a little bit into the stupid, twisted, boring rat's nest of critical theory.

The modern period is typically typified by ending with the defeat of the Nazi regime, who are seen as embodying the worst aspects of that political programme - specifically, a harshly delimited moral right that posits its own truth as absolute, and backed up by a certain type of science. Obviously the German fascist movement is right wing: exclusionary, self assured, xenophobic. In response to this, we have many theorists in the wake of the second world war questioning not only these obviously evil tenants of thought, but also the foundations (the epistemology, that is to say) of how those came to be: exclusionary (only western science is correct), self assured (only rational thought can encapsulate a central narrative of lived experience), xenophobic (there is a certain apocryphal tribal approach to life that is preferable to what is seen as smothering European modernity). In effect, what this means is an epistemology that is precisely positioned AGAINST experts, academia, and (what is seen as) the controlling body. In its inception post-modernism, as it was called, was supposed to be the voice of the subaltern. Those beneath the mainstream. And, for many years, usefully, it was.

However, this same anti-establishment position can also be taken by the opposite. We might say the altern, but we may also say the patriarchy. With some clever rearrangement the position of anti-expert (where the expert represents not patriarchal conceptions of science and logic, but rather PROGRESSIVELY defined conceptions of logic and science) can be re-positioned. The same notion that leads the subaltern to adopt to the ethos of postmodernism can similarly be sold to the patriarchy as a compelling (and by means of association) ACADEMIC way to defend their privilege. Therefore secondary postmodernists (and fuck it, even after that) tend to think of post-modernism as less an emancipatory ideology (as we might see Lyotard envisioning it), and more a DESCRIPTIVE ideology. For example, Jameson calls Postmodernism the dominant ideology of late capitalism (meaning: the West is divorced from production, and is instead solely a consumer - ironically a main bugaboo for the trump base).

From this valence, postmodernism is no longer a way to be free of the patriarchy, but rather a way for the patriarchy to sell itself as a compelling way of being free of ideology and baggage that we typically associate with politics. Put another way, the alt-right losers on 4-chan and such can figure trump not as an authoritarian ideologue, but rather as an emancipatory figure who is able to return their right as the sole arbiters of a postmodern consumer culture. If you want to get nearer, a culture of gaming, or anime, or politics that they'd thought safely free of feminine and minority voices, a fantasy of a totally free and uncomplicated market (a frictionless market) of their own supremacist ideas.

I'm nor sure to what degree, but I'd argue that trump (at some level) is understanding this dynamic. Hillary talks about the "alt-right", and truthfully, this is what she is talking about. A notion of politics that goes even beyond identity (because identity is formed at its core by a conception of common interest), and instead a total image. An image of strength, of dominance, and important of supremacy and patriarchy. Somebody in the trump campaign understands this, and is operating upon it.
posted by codacorolla at 11:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]


I hope "the cyber" turns into this year's "rumors on the internets."
posted by donatella at 11:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]




I am getting so pumped up to early vote! I wonder if I can find a suffragette sash for my baby to wear to the polls ...
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [31 favorites]


The Theory by D. Trump brackets Mister brackets on Why I Have a Great Relationship with the Blacks. Sniff. Sniff. Ready? Sniff. This theory, it's a beautiful theory, and it is mine. Sniff. And it is as follows:
I opened a club, and really got great credit for it. No discrimination against African Americans, against Muslims, against anybody. And it's a tremendously successful club. And I'm so glad I did it, and I have been given great credit for what I did. And I'm very very proud of it. And that's the way I feel. That is the true way I feel, and what it is too.
posted by drlith at 11:36 PM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]


I often wondered if Norquist's single-minded focus on the whole tax-pledge business might have be indicative of an undiagnosed obsessive-compulsive disorder

The man is on record eating tuna from the can at public events.

Anyway, the big thing here is that China is looking at the US (and the UK post-Brexit) and saying "really, free politics, you want that?" while fuckheads like Viktor Orban say "how many civil rights can we take away and still remain EU members" and small-l liberal democracy in the developed world is genuinely taking a beating. So, no pressure.
posted by holgate at 11:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]


Holt then, as I feared, pivoted to Clinton's email issue. Clinton gave the best answer I've seen her give on the topic (short and succinct) and threw it back to Trump... and Trump started talking about his TAX RETURNS and shit again.

That was the amazing part. He totally had an actual attack going and could have easily sustained a "what's in those deleted emails you're hiding from the American people" bit. He started off strong, talking about the staffer pleading the 5th, and he could have easily gone on to bleaching servers and smashing phones with hammers to insinuate all kinds of nefarious things. Here's the relevant bit of the transcript (full transcript from NYT). She literally says "It was a mistake," which any rational opponent would take as an opportunity to expound on the alleged awfulness of that mistake.

But then his wild side took over and he pivoted to LaGuardia being a piss poor airport (which, yeah it is, though I've been in some lovely third-world airports) and a bunch of word salad about his taxes and how rich he is and what banks he deals with and something incomprehensible about "braggadocious" (which the frickin' dictionary live word-chcked as incorrect, because dictionaries live-tweet Presidential debates in 2016). He had an attack going for five seconds and then he turned it back around on himself.

I think Trump's Razor applies here: he couldn't be arsed to do more than 20 seconds of debate prep at a time, so he never bothered to memorize a simple paragraph of attacks about Clinton's emails. And then when it came time to use that obvious set piece, when the moderator basically said "Mr. Trump, please say the thing you've prepared to say to attack Hillary Clinton over here about her emails," Trump acted like the guy at a job interview who apparently never remotely thought that somebody might ask him "so why do you want to work at [Company X]?" and so he mutters something about the company's great widgets when the company doesn't even make widgets.

The worst interview answer I've previously heard belonged to an 8th grader who was applying a private high school. As I was told it, he visited the school for a half-day to sit in on classes and was then given an interview. The interviewer says, "so, what was the best part of your visit?" and the kid responds, "the hamburger I ate for lunch." Maybe he was telling the truth, but he was not offered admission. And yet that kid still managed to answer the question, which is more than I can say for Donald Trump, who had to do nothing in that moment to succeed other than recite a 45 second set piece on emails, something that is apparently beyond his capabilities.
posted by zachlipton at 11:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [61 favorites]




"Trump's supporters aren't reality-based and won't waver no matter what."

This is almost true, but I think that Josh Marshall has been on the money with characterizing Trump's appeal to his base as being about dominance politics and being a winner. Trump's Achilles heel is ever to begin to seem to be dominated or as a loser. And, personally, I think that his instincts will make that a vicious cycle in that he'll try to strike back even harder (which is his avowed doctrine) which will actually look desperate if it's not a knockout blow. And the problem for Trump with Clinton is that all her years in the trenches mean that she's not the kind of candidate that you are likely to KO with a single, well-delivered punch.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]




This is almost true, but I think that Josh Marshall has been on the money with characterizing Trump's appeal to his base as being about dominance politics and being a winner. Trump's Achilles heel is ever to begin to seem to be dominated or as a loser.

I keep seeing people say this, but... how on Earth does one look at Trump and see "winner"? He looks and acts like a loser, and has for as long as I've been aware of him. He can't find clothes that fit or a hairstyle that doesn't look fake, he can't respond to questions in an intelligible way, and he throws public temper tantrums like a child does when losing a game (complaining that the game wasn't fair, name-calling, etc.).

He has money but it was given to him, and in every other way he is objectively a loser. The guy has been a punchline in our popular culture for like 25 years. Are there seriously people who can look at him and see "winner"?
posted by IAmUnaware at 12:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [40 favorites]


He's got cocaneumonia.
posted by atoxyl at 12:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


it increasingly feels as though trump is the first fully postmodern president
more like post-democracy...
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Palm Beach Demographics: "As of the 2000 census, over half the population (52.7%) are 65 years of age or older, with a median age of 67 years...The per capita income for the town is $109,219... racial makeup of the town is 96% White."

Old rich white folks: Trump heaven.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:05 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


he pivoted to LaGuardia being a piss poor airport

Make LaGuardia great for once!
posted by lkc at 12:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


In my little corner of hell, I unfollowed another chunk of people on my social media tonight for both-sides-are-the-same-ism. They didn't watch the debate but they didn't have to to know there was literally no difference between the candidates. You might be able to, but i can't fix stupid.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


*they're split between Johnson and Stein.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:08 AM on September 27, 2016


In the next debate I predict Trump will announce his new cyber policy: "unplug it, then plug it back in."
posted by Lyme Drop at 12:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


PPP did a national phone poll about the debate. 51-40 for Clinton (though without more details of the makeup of their sample we can't say what this means, precisely). But the internals are fairly promising. She did particularly well among young people compared to Trump. Overall it was pretty good.

Discouraging note: White people as a whole thought Trump won by a small margin, and the debate made them slightly more likely to vote for Trump and slightly less likely to vote for Clinton. Fuckin' white people, man.
posted by Justinian at 12:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


The more I see Clinton talk the more I like her. I've said it before, but I don't think I've ever been so excited by a candidate. Yes, I'm watching it again.
posted by bongo_x at 12:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [31 favorites]


Josh Marshall, as usual, seems right on the money here: A Transcript Littered With Bombs

There are so many time bombs in that debate transcript. Trump could not resist the urge to interject, "wrong" and such over and over again, which will just run up the score for the fact checkers. There's the Iraq War discussion again, there's the Chinese Global warming hoax, there's birtherism, there's my son "is so good with these computers," there's deserving credit for letting minorities into his club, there's the Miss Universe winner he mocked and demeaned, there's Rosie O'Donnell, there's "it also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds," there's Trump wanting credit for not bringing up Bill's "transgressions" because Chelsea was in the room, there's the "small loan" thing, there's the taxes, and the great granddaddy of them all: "I also have a much better temperament than she has."

Every single one of these could be an entire day's worth of discussion on cable news. Any one of those moments alone ought to be enough to do serious damage to his campaign. Will all of them combined? Or will outrage fatigue quickly set in tomorrow?
posted by zachlipton at 12:24 AM on September 27, 2016 [28 favorites]


Any one of those moments alone ought to be enough to do serious damage to his campaign. Will all of them combined? Or will outrage fatigue quickly set in tomorrow?

I dunno, has the MSM hit a point of diminishing returns on false equivalencies and trying to narrow this race yet?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:27 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Discouraging note: White people as a whole thought Trump won by a small margin, and the debate made them slightly more likely to vote for Trump and slightly less likely to vote for Clinton. Fuckin' white people, man.
posted by Justinian at 12:14 AM on 9/27
[+] [!]


...I've only watched clips (I wasn't staying up until 3am on a week night) but who anyone could 'prefer' Trump is uh, strange. Been talking to my kids a lot about strange and what's strange for you is normal for someone else and vice versa - but this ain't even that kindness of strange. This is 'I'd rather sleep outside in the rain' strange, like self-harm strange. I look at Trump I feel like I'm looking at every time someone tried to screw me.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:31 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


Steve Melcher's "That Is Priceless" puts humorously contemporary titles onto pieces of classic art. But this is the first time I've seen him do a 'quick response' before the political cartoonists: "Concerned Supporter Subtly Offering Sniffling Trump a Hanky"
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:33 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


edeezy, CNN Politics yields

Clinton: 41:12

Trump: 46:12

(approx)

Ninja edit to link to cited info and not the whole livestream
posted by iffthen at 12:34 AM on September 27, 2016


I can't get past the naked honesty and privilege (as already noted by bongo_x above):

"I take advantage"
posted by riverlife at 12:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


He has money but it was given to him, and in every other way he is objectively a loser. The guy has been a punchline in our popular culture for like 25 years. Are there seriously people who can look at him and see "winner"?

I was talking with a friend about this while carefully avoiding looking directly at the debates, and this came up. My notion about it is mostly that a lot of this boils down to the Just World fallacy. Trump is rich. Certainly not as rich as he claims, but far richer than any of us normal people.

A ton of people are simply unwilling to entertain the notion that he doesn't deserve all that. It messes with their worldview too much to imagine that the system isn't actually fair, and that incompetent jackasses might have gold plated toilet seats for no reason at all, while hardworking and industrious people might die penniless. They have to live in a world where things are fair, to the extent of willfully ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

Those folks look at him and see 'winner.' Also, those people are bad and I hope they feel bad, but they exist.
posted by mordax at 12:39 AM on September 27, 2016 [54 favorites]


"it also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds,"

I thought those were the kind of comments that win Trump votes.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:40 AM on September 27, 2016


CNN candidate speaking times after 90 minutes (approximate)

(Note that things went on longer than this; for an actual total see my post a few above)

Clinton: 37:31
Trump: 42:06

Trump : Clinton time usage ratio after 90 mins: 1.122

And if you calculate that ratio for the total speaking times I posted a few posts ago, you get (pretty much) the same ratio - 1.121. Donald outspoke Hillary by 12%, yet somehow managed to get less points across.

(Yes, I'm trying to get all the debate obsession out of my system so I can actually get some work done)
posted by iffthen at 12:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


She won the debate, no question, but it was as much because he failed to do his job as the alternative choice. Trump never really pushed on any of her weaknesses, especially her horribly opportunistic vote to wage war on Iraq and her problems with email security. He isn't presidential material for many reasons too numerous to list here, but as an opposition candidate, he definitely neglected his job to raise important questions about her judgment and character (as much as it is also her job, about his), and having one candidate in a two-party system effectively coming out of this process running functionally unopposed is probably not going to be the best outcome for voters. The opposition she faced in the Democratic primaries lead to actual progressive policies worked into the platform, for instance.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]




oh my goodness the rarity speaks for itself
posted by DoctorFedora at 1:31 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


and having one candidate in a two-party system effectively coming out of this process running functionally unopposed is probably not going to be the best outcome for voters. The opposition she faced in the Democratic primaries lead to actual progressive policies worked into the platform, for instance.

On what matters should she water down her policies to meet Trump in the middle?

For example, on the racism / compassion axis? Or not/taxing the 1%? Public/private prisons? Racial profiling? Women's rights / forced birth?

As much as anything, this campaign is really a referendum on the Southern Strategy.

It might be desirable to end up with a camel if you and an opponent are designing a horse by committee. A camel is a fine animal, well-suited to a couple environments. But if your opponent disagrees on whether or not to act compassionately and rationally ...
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


Freelance Demiurge: "The alt-right is lurking still"

Wow, HRC is actually "framed" by Right and Pepe.

In that picture.

Which is fake.

Obvs.
posted by chavenet at 1:50 AM on September 27, 2016


And I think Secretary Clinton and myself would agree very much, when you look at what ISIS is doing with the internet, they're beating us at our own game. ISIS. So we have to get very, very tough on cyber and cyber warfare. It is a, it is a huge problem. I have a son.

He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly do-able. But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing, but that's true throughout our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester and certainly cyber is one of them.


Maybe Trump really does have a plan after all. I think he's raising John Connor to save us from SkyNet after he uses it to start WW3.
posted by scalefree at 1:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


I woke up to BBC Radio4's take on the debates, which was that whilst they did not declare an outright winner, it was Trump's night to prove himself and he did not achieve that.

Soundbites I remember them playing:
- Hillary calmly and fully acknowledging/apologising for her use of a private server: it sounded to me like she very effectively took the wind out of his sails over this

- Birtherism clip: Me getting rage face at Trump insisting that he did everyone a favor

- Trump interrupting with "That makes me smart" for not paying taxes: I shouted "oh my lord why, why would he say that? He can't help himself!"

- Hillary retorting that he can talk about stamina after visiting 100+ countries (list all her achievements here) and sitting through 11 hours of congressional hearings, which ended in applause: cut to me grinning and hissing "yaaasssss....."

Despite this audio, BBC were extremely careful to try and not take any sides, which infuriated me and I will just pull out another Hillary quote: "Just listen to what you heard".

By the time I left the house they were interviewing Giulliani (yuk) and reporting their faulty mic excuse.

I was feeling calm but disappointed that it didn't sound like Hillary really got her claws out.

Thank god for Metafilter, it sounds like she was just starting to get them sharpened!
posted by like_neon at 3:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


I really don't like this discourse of "Who won the debate", which is like a new meme. That's imprecise and obscuring of what is actually going on: a moderated debate with no judges but rather an audience a subset of which is millions of voters who have the responsibility of making a choice come November. As Hillary stated in her opening remarks, this is really about the audience.

BBC and the corporate media can declare debate victors/losers all they want. Individual people are welcome to opinions about who fared or performed better. But the phrase "won the debate" is like a type error or category error, it makes no sense given the setting. If people say it as a symbol or metonymy to mean "I think/predict such and such about the attitudes/inclinations of the body politic", then it becomes a subtle conflation, or even social posturing. Hillary herself expressed valuing precision in ideas and language; something to think about.

There's a bigger risk to this kind of discourse. You and I may have certain standards for debate (say college-level discourse or whatever), but as soon as I personally declare that a candidate won or lost the debate, I close myself to theories of minds of the political opposition and other social classes. It may be the case other groups genuinely thought Trump won, because they have a different language and inhabit a different interpretive context. Maybe they thought Trump's behavior was appropriately subversive—just as conventional liberals likely judged his behavior tonight as disrespectful or incompetent. Even Hillary herself mentioned as much the nature of this conflict, on fundamental differences of her perspective and his.

It's tempting to simplify. In critical times, clarity and precision matters.
posted by polymodus at 3:24 AM on September 27, 2016 [33 favorites]


Killing Ed is a doc about the Gülen charter schools.
posted by brujita at 3:35 AM on September 27, 2016


polymodus: that style/quality of analysis is absolutely 100% why I find myself coming to this silly site when it's 3 in the damn morning and I can't sleep. thank you.

Metafilter: In critical times, clarity and precision matters.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


Polymodus, I think you mistake the target audience for claims about who "won the debate". Hard partisan Trump voters, you are correct, were not judging it by the same standards most of us were. In fact I think it likely that they would claim Trump won the debate essentially no matter what happened short of some sort of breakdown on stage. (I like to think that the reverse is not true about Clinton's supporters but that could be wishful thinking.)

But the judgment about who "won the debate" isn't about the partisans, it is about the squishy middle. The ones who shifted towards Romney after Obama's terrible first debate performance in 2012 and then back towards Obama after Biden's debate and Obama's second appearance. In that context it isn't just appropriate but vital that we declare Hillary Clinton the winner. That narrative shapes the discussion on-air and off over the coming weeks, and there is without question a group of people who are moved by such judgments.

This is precisely why it isn't only the rank and file who claim "victory" after a debate but the thinkers and policy setters. Because they know full well that what happened during the debate is only half of the fight. The other half is getting your candidate declared the winner, and thus positioning your side to get that two or three percent of the vote that narrative can shift.

Clarity and precision matter less than claiming that three percent.
posted by Justinian at 3:52 AM on September 27, 2016 [40 favorites]


Okay, I slept and now I'm watching the whole thing over coffee. (I'm not sure this is better than the usual late-night alcoholically-enhanced* approach, but we go to watch debates with the schedule we have, not the schedule we wish we had.)

Summary: My lord, the press is really, really trying hard to make it close, aren't they? Last night's buzz was that it was a lukewarm, so-so victory for Clinton, but my mine own eyes are not seeing anything that nuanced. Honestly, I don't see how the media can keep up any kind of horserace narrative after this drubbing, as much as they surely want to.

I usually hate mornings. But this is making me laugh a lot. Poor little bully getting schooled over and over and over again. Ha.

* Parse me as you will, gentle hungover readers.
posted by rokusan at 3:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


Amazing comment submitted to the NYT's editorial about the debate:

"My mom -- almost 100 now -- is Chinese from a generation taught to defer to men and view unfavorably women who achieve prominence. In her mind and from her culture there's a natural order and women aren't part of it. That's despite her degree from St. John's University in Shanghai, regarded as the "Harvard of China." Despite being a single immigrant woman, raising two sons while employed as a translator and journalist at Chinese publications where she was the only woman.

By virtue of his gender alone Trump would win my mom's support. I watched tonight with her. She smiled when Trump talked and knitted her brow when Hillary spoke. Five minutes in, when Trump grew obnoxious, my mother began to look irritated and soon contemptuous. "What kind of man is he? He is insults his parents with his behavior. He humiliates them with such low class manners."

Hillary? Maybe it was her lucky (for Chinese) red pantsuit but "This is an educated woman from a good family. You can see that in the proper way she speaks and her bravery to speak forcefully to that man. I feel sorry for that man's wife but she must be a stupid girl to have married him."

Trump had my mom by default. In 90 minutes he broke 100 years of deeply ingrained male bias. At her age she uses an absentee ballot. After the "debate" she went looking for it. She had seen and heard enough."
posted by Sublimity at 4:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [362 favorites]


The guy has been a punchline in our popular culture for like 25 years. Are there seriously people who can look at him and see "winner"?

I've encountered plenty of people in my life that habitually mistake confidence for ability. There's a reason "con man" is short for "confidence man."
posted by duffell at 4:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


..in the middle of trying to type something half as good as what Justinian says,...It's mind-boggling, seeing so much time, talent and money spent to sway a group of people who honestly can't decide between two nearly polar opposites on issues of substance but who are waiting for prevailing opinion (on intangible factors of personality) to decide for them. That's become the whole purpose of these debates and I thought Clinton did a fantastic job. I don't think she just "won", I thought she transcended the damn thing.
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:04 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump admitted he lost on Fox just now: "We go hammered"

Blames the moderator but he lost!
posted by sammyo at 4:22 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump interrupting with "That makes me smart" for not paying taxes: I shouted "oh my lord why, why would he say that?"

That made me jump in my seat, too. There are a hundred ways to say that without sounding like a criminal. Like, for example:

"I have great accountants. The best accountants. I tell them to make sure I pay as little tax as I have to pay without breaking any laws. They're great accountants." [Fake]

Like, not only is that more reasonable, I bet most voters could relate to that, too, since that's pretty much what everyone wants, anyway. Pay less tax, but don't cheat. Right?

But instead he said... that thing he said. How can he be so good at shooting himself in the foot and yet still have come this far?
posted by rokusan at 4:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


man last night was like watching every bully I've known owned and owned and owned again and forced to drink his own ownage
posted by angrycat at 4:24 AM on September 27, 2016 [33 favorites]


Every time Trump walks into an obvious trap and Clinton has to restrain her glee, all I can see is this.
posted by rokusan at 4:27 AM on September 27, 2016 [82 favorites]


Yes, the smart-to-not-pay-taxes thing was outrageous. Trump natters on and on about NATO allies not paying their fair share, but then glibly dismisses the architect that he stiffed, and now boasts about paying no taxes. People, HE doesn't pay his fair share. Why doesn't the press roast him for this?
posted by Sublimity at 4:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [39 favorites]


I mentioned it last night, but kinda surprised that it's not getting any mention in the media. Trump basically said he agrees with Clinton "strongly", contrary to his party and NRA, that people on the terrorist watch list should not be able to buy guns.

"CLINTON: And we finally need to pass a prohibition on anyone who’s on the terrorist watch list from being able to buy a gun in our country. If you’re too dangerous to fly, you are too dangerous to buy a gun. So there are things we can do, and we ought to do it in a bipartisan way."

Which later Trump wanted to go back and address specifically:

"TRUMP: First of all, I agree, and a lot of people even within my own party want to give certain rights to people on watch lists and no- fly lists. I agree with you. When a person is on a watch list or a no-fly list, and I have the endorsement of the NRA, which I’m very proud of. These are very, very good people, and they’re protecting the Second Amendment.

But I think we have to look very strongly at no-fly lists and watch lists. And when people are on there, even if they shouldn’t be on there, we’ll help them, we’ll help them legally, we’ll help them get off. But I tend to agree with that quite strongly."

So now twice in the last week he's advocated taking guns/restricting gun rights.
posted by chris24 at 4:53 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump admitted he lost on Fox just now: "We go hammered"

LOL whenever he wins it's, "I won, I won, me me me", but suddenly in defeat there's a "we"
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [38 favorites]


Wow, CNN's front page is a veritable feast:

Clinton Pokes, Trump Takes the Bait
(another link to that one says "Trump loses his cool")

Clinton puts Trump on defense

Trump's very thin skin

Trump called beauty queen 'Miss Piggy'

Trump: 'I'm smart' for not paying taxes

Why was Trump sniffing so much?

Trump complains about debate mic

Poll: Hillary Clinton takes round one

I'm sure tomorrow we'll be back to five different articles about Clinton's email issues, but for today... I celebrate.
posted by mmoncur at 4:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump’s debate incompetence a slap in the face to his supporters

Lead article at the NY Post, one of the very few papers to have endorsed Trump, and of course owned by Murdoch.

And the second article? One complaining about Holt.
posted by chris24 at 5:00 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump natters on and on about NATO allies not paying their fair share

And just to say it because not everyone knows, NATO members aren't stiffing the US on bills, they don't owe us money to keep the alliance going. NATO guidelines ask that member nations spend 2% of their GDP on their military budget and most of them aren't meeting that goal. It's just that their budgetary priorities are different, not that they are deadbeats like Donald Trump.
posted by peeedro at 5:05 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


Regarding NATO, Trump claimed the USA pays 73% of the cost, but the actual figure is 22%. 73% is the figure you come up with taking into account total defense spending, which in the case of the USA includes non-NATO related commitments and spending.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 5:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


not that they are deadbeats like Donald Trump.

I was shocked that he not only didn't deny being a deadbeat, he doubled down on it. At one point it sounded like he was arguing for refusing to pay your bills as an approach to the national debt. I have some hope that that will alienate reasonable minded fiscal conservatives of the "I pay my bills, why doesn't the government?" type enough to at least stay home, but who knows; they might all have died.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Last night marked the first time in my adult like that I have even watched a debate. Period. The only reason I did last night was because we were invited to a small party to watch the debate and tally-up the lie-count, while eating Ed's amazing hot wings. Seemed like a fair trade.

My impressions as a debate virgin being relentlessly deflowered for 90 minutes...

• Hillary's red suit. OH. HELLS. YES!!!!!!!!!! In my book, she won the debate just strolling onto the stage in that. Goddam, that was like a strategic nuke across the bow of S.S. Trumpski. Our whole group just howled YESSSSSSSSS!!!! when she came on. Power-dressing personified.

• On balance, Lester Holt did a damned good job.

• I apologize if this has been posted already in this long, long, long thread, but this image pretty much encapsulates the remainder of my first debate impressions.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


From the abrupt changes in the odds - some bookies had Hillary and Donald close to parity - that's a lot of money in the last twelve hours bet on Hillary to become president.
posted by Wordshore at 5:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


that's a lot of money in the last twelve hours bet on Hillary to become president

Mind you, these were the same people who gave good odds on Brexit.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:20 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mind, you, these were the same people who gave good odds on Brexit.

Yep; I voted Remain and took the Brexit odds after the Gibralter vote came in but before Sunderland did - after which Brexit became favorite. Bookie odds are different from opinion polls in several ways, a fundamental one being that it's people risking their actual cash. I'll take their general trending patterns over oft-methodologically flawed opinion polls e.g. Labour's victory in the 2015 UK general election.
posted by Wordshore at 5:30 AM on September 27, 2016


JakeEXTREME: "Trump is live on Bloomberg right now saying how he should've hit her with Bill's life stuff. Holy crap. That's nuts."

So, next debate, either he's much more subdued and with at least a few hours of actual debate prep or just some sedatives, or he decides to go all-in unfiltered GOP primary style (at the last minute, without telling his campaign team). He even said that he was going to say something "really rough" about the Clinton family, but he held back against his base instincts ... alas. He really wants to. So much.

I thought Trump's talking about not doing any debate prep was mostly about setting low expectations, but now, I think he was just letting us know exactly what he was doing so he could brag about how easy it was later, while being totally lazy about it, getting by on insult comedy improv. It's clear that Conway has helped him curb some of his most egregious impulse issues in short appearances, but that he really doesn't listen to the most basic advice, like prepare for presidential debates.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:31 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Aaaand I just hit my favorite limit, at 8:35 in the morning. Bah.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 5:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


I want the Hillary campaign to come out with an ad like: "Trump claims our NATO allies aren't paying their fair share. Is Trump paying his fair share to the American people?" Then play some bits about tax evasion. If possible work in the bit about the only time NATO has been invoked being after 9/11.
posted by peacheater at 5:36 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]






If you're the less qualified and less prepared candidate and you figure you'll just bluster and interrupt your way through it, it turns out it doesn't end well for you if you're up against a woman who got to the stage by winning that game for fifty years.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:41 AM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]




(This is my surprised face.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


My group were all in agreement that this was not about switching Trump voters to Hillary voters, It's about convincing Republican voters who are hesitant about Trump to just stay home, or just skip the presidential part of the ballot.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump is a reality-TV guy who blooms with editing. He'll throw out dozens of asides, some of them bizarre, but there's always the six-second chunk in there that's golden. For months the media have been doing that editing work for him. Now America got to watch the unedited outtake reel and it's terrible.
posted by argybarg at 5:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [67 favorites]


Is...is Donald Trump gaslighting the world about the sniffles the word heard?
posted by nicebookrack at 5:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


No sniffles.

Let's go back to the highlights.
posted by cmfletcher at 5:46 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


He even said that he was going to say something "really rough" about the Clinton family, but he held back against his base instincts ... alas. He really wants to. So muchh.

All she has to do is turn toward the camera and say: "A man with 5 children by three different wives doesn't have any room to criticize someone else's family. Bill and I may have had our struggles, but we've been together for 40 years. I have shoes that are older than any of Mr. Trump's marriages."
posted by Chrischris at 5:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [118 favorites]


I thought Trump's talking about not doing any debate prep was mostly about setting low expectations, but now, I think he was just letting us know exactly what he was doing so he could brag about how easy it was later, while being totally lazy about it, getting by on insult comedy improv. It's clear that Conway has helped him curb some of his most egregious impulse issues in short appearances, but that he really doesn't listen to the most basic advice, like prepare for presidential debates.

I don't think he can even if he wanted too. He doesn't have the skill or competence to learn anything about complex ideas and retain that complexity. He lacks the focus to learn anything and remember it beyond beyond very simplistic and black and white factoids. He's also at a distinct disadvantage that for most areas of knowledge that a President needs he's never really focused on or probably thought much about beyond his perception of 'good or bad'. Hilary as been living and breathing it for 30 years. Her prep wasn't about having to learn about potential topics. It was just deciding on what to focus on and how her approach.

I think he did do some prep and that he did take time to listen to basic advice. In the beginning you could see his struggle and attempt at being calm, thoughtful Presidential guy. As one commentator said you could almost hear his advisors voices saying ' do this, say this, don't do this'. Then Hilary baited. He got pissed and all of the 'advice' and 'prep' went out the window. He became the bloviating narcissist that he is.

My expectation was that he would be better at not taking the bait. I thought Hillary, if that was her tactic was going to have to work harder to break him that way. Ends up she didn't really have to try at all.
posted by Jalliah at 5:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


It's such a childlike lie. I wouldn't give a damn if any other candidate had the sniffles, because I could be reasonably well assured of their overall health and doubtful of any unauthorized insufflation, but with Trump, God only knows.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


IAmUnaware I keep seeing people say this, but... how on Earth does one look at Trump and see "winner"?

In addition to the just world fallacy mentioned by mordax, I think there's also the MRA/PUA/whatever "alpha male" thing. On NPR they had a guy in Georgia who used that exact phrase while praising Trump.

To them being shouty, overbearing, putting on preening tough guy airs, is not merely a plus but evidence of winnerhood. Being a winner isn't necessarily about winning, but about projecting the macho asshole attitude they associate with winners.

What, to people who haven't fallen for the BS, looks like petulant bullying behavior from a jerk looks to the Trumpsters like a winner doing macho winner things. To them kissing ass up and kicking ass down is the definition of a winner. Winners abuse those below them and toady to those above them. Winners are doublecrossing self aggrandizing bullying thieves who take credit for everything they can and shovel blame on anyone they can get away with.

There's a reason Social Darwinism was so popular, it really resonated at a deep emotional level with a lot of people. There is, as Vimes said, a design flaw in humanity, a tendency to bend at the knee. And to a lot of people who are themselves the same sort of bullying blowhard that Trump is, his ability to be a very big bullying blowhard demonstrates both their own rightness and self worth, and his success. He's doing what they do, but bigger and more and he's going big places with it, so it must be right, and they see themselves as being able to follow in his footsteps.
posted by sotonohito at 5:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [44 favorites]


As pleasing - or, as a relief - how last night's debate turned out, at the back of my mind there's one constant thought. There's still nearly 4 months - 115 days - before the next POTUS (who may or may not be the election winner) is inaugurated. And 2016 is a strange year, not yet three quarters through.
posted by Wordshore at 5:51 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Trump admitted he lost on Fox just now: "We go hammered"

Cite? I can't find anything online about this.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:54 AM on September 27, 2016




I keep seeing people say this, but... how on Earth does one look at Trump and see "winner"?

The assumed possession of testes, and the lack of (female) breasts.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chelsea: "Bring it." [i wish]
posted by whuppy at 5:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is from the former spokesman for the Republican National Senatorial Committee.

"True story - my Dad's company was stiffed by Trump on a six figure telecom job in the 1980's. Trump told them it would cost more to sue him."
posted by chris24 at 6:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [47 favorites]


I was, unfortunately, proven wrong. Clinton was unable to goad Trump into the frothing at the mouth temper tantrum I'd hoped for. she tried, and of course she can't try too blatantly, but it didn't work. Dunno if I misjudged how thin skinned Trump is, or if he took a Xanax or something.

I am, looking at all the post debate stuff from the talking heads, happy to see that the vastly lowered expectations for Trump mostly haven't resulted in the media declaring him the winner simply because he didn't literally fling poo at Clinton while screaming racial slurs. They're still being far, far, too generous to him, but not as generous as I'd hoped.

But, in the absence of a total Trump meltdown into a screaming, frothing, red faced, rage fit, what it means is that the debate basically did very little. The Trumpers declare he won, everyone else acknowledges that Clinton won, and basically not much happened. Maybe Clinton gets some ad material out of it, but since Trump is more of a cult leader than a traditional politician it won't matter.

We've already got hours and hours of video of Trump blatantly lying in a way that can be objectively verified. It means nothing to his followers or most Republican voters. The Trumpsters won't believe anything bad about their God Emperor, the mainline Republicans are still hoping for a Junior or Reagan type presidency where they can get him to rubber stamp their legislation, pack the Supreme Court with Scalia clones, and be sort of embarrassing but who cares because they get their legislation passed.
posted by sotonohito at 6:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


@mattmfm: "Absolutely brutal swing state headlines for Trump this morning." (with images)
posted by chris24 at 6:04 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


The Trumpers declare he won, everyone else acknowledges that Clinton won, and basically not much happened. Maybe Clinton gets some ad material out of it, but since Trump is more of a cult leader than a traditional politician it won't matter.

His supporters don't matter. They're 40% of the electorate and the 10% more he needs does care. And last night will impact them in my opinion. Undecided white women and college educated voters are going to see what we saw. Plus, her kicking ass fires up and motivates her base.
posted by chris24 at 6:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [29 favorites]


sotonohito, I think you can thank Lester Holt for being an actual moderator and keeping Donny more-or-less near the rails before he went too far off them.

I, too, was hoping for a meltdown, but, in some ways, this was more effective, showing how he's incapable of governing even on a good day.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Sotonohito- I personally know one person, a liberal war vet who has never forgiven HRC for the Iraq vote, who messaged me right after saying "shit, I think I have to vote for her." I've heard similar stories right here in this thread. This debate was never about either candidate's base, it was about people who thought they were 'both bad' who have now seen them side by side for the first time and seen just how much worse he is.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [83 favorites]


So I took a peek at some right wing discussion. Many are focusing on him winning, sometimes by a lot; online polls. The ones where anyone can click and the ones where if you know what you're doing you can vote over and over. They prove that the media is lying and that everyone loves Trump.
Of course posts like 'Hey here are links to online polls I found spread the word, we need to win them' won't have skewed the results at all. *eyeroll*
posted by Jalliah at 6:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's mind-boggling, seeing so much time, talent and money spent to sway a group of people who honestly can't decide between two nearly polar opposites on issues of substance but who are waiting for prevailing opinion to decide for them.

There are very few genuine undecideds - and frankly they aren't worth playing for as they are best described as apathetic. They are the people who just want the election to go away and almost certainly won't vote.

What there are is three groups of ambivalents.
  • Republican leaning ambivalents who know what they ought to do, but don't actually want to vote for Clinton (and possibly change the habit of a lifetime)
  • Democratic leaning ambivalents who have been taken in by the various Clinton scandals or are Bernie or Busters.
  • People who proudly trumpet their independence and are more interested in talking about that than anything else to pollsters although they will almost certainly break for a major party candidate.
Or in other words what there is left is people who don't care about the election and people given the option between a vegetarian restaurant and a junk food restaurant where the head chef puts broken glass in the meals are saying they don't want to eat their greens and going to sulk until election time. (Trump's supporters are meanwhile about half "We've always gone there. The new head chef can't be that bad" with the other half split between "Hold my beer and watch me eat this" and "You're all going to have to eat broken glass. Hahaha.")
posted by Francis at 6:10 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


There's a significant percentage of the population that sees Trump not paying taxes a plus, for the reason Trump himself cites: they feel like the government wastes the money they pay in taxes, they think we'd all be better off if we keep all our money and spend it where we see fit. Him bragging about how smart he is for not paying any taxes won't change anyone's mind who was already leaning Trump.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


What I can't understand is how the "make America great again" crowd can listen to his incoherent ramblings and her incisive responses and not feel skin-crawlingly embarrassed at the idea of Trump being the face of America. I mean, even if they theoretically like his I-got-mine policies, are they really willing to position the US as this much of a laughingstock internationally?
posted by instamatic at 6:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Holy shit, Trump is doubling down this morning on attacking Alicia Machado, the Latina Miss USA who came up last night and who Clinton released an ad about. LOL. He can't not take the bait.

Trump digs in on former Miss Universe, Alicia Machado:
"She gained a massive amount of weight and it was a real problem."


Donald Trump on the Latina beauty pageant contestant: "The worst we ever had." She was "impossible," he said.
posted by chris24 at 6:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [29 favorites]


what's it called, L'esprit de l'escalier

Trepverter in Yiddish.
posted by maxsparber at 6:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


The "they're both terrible" narrative is resilient; I'm still seeing a lot of it on Facebook in response to last night. But two more of these (or one more + a no-show for #3) will wear it away.
posted by argybarg at 6:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]




The "they're both terrible" narrative is resilient; I'm still seeing a lot of it on Facebook in response to last night.

I just got off the phone with my mother, who is about the most undecided, middle-of-the-road political person I know. She said that "both of them drove me crazy at times." Despite my own sense that she wiped the floor with him, this wasn't a game-changer. Let's see how the next one goes.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:16 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


What I can't understand is how the "make America great again" crowd can listen to his incoherent ramblings and her incisive responses and not feel skin-crawlingly embarrassed at the idea of Trump being the face of America. I mean, even if they theoretically like his I-got-mine policies, are they really willing to position the US as this much of a laughingstock internationally?

Many of these types in my experience take this as a sign that people are just jealous and mad because of it. Add in American exceptionalism and it magnifies. As a Canadian, during Bush's tenure, I was told by many American Bush supporter that my criticizm was because I was just mad and upset at how the US is awesome and everyone else isn't. So people saying Bush/America sucks on this issue is just more proof that Bush/America is amazing.

Trump supporters will think the same way.
posted by Jalliah at 6:18 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


How can you be overprepared for being President?

Of course about the only time that the over prepared comment comes out is when a dynamic female or minority is better prepared than her/his opponent.

I'm pretty sure that Obama overprepared for McCain and Romney for instance.

Fuck Chuck Todd for using sexist tropes
posted by vuron at 6:18 AM on September 27, 2016 [62 favorites]


Honestly, even if the debate results don't make people jump ship from Trump outright, it seems to have done a good job demotivating his base. If we can keep the spotlight on Trump until Election Day constantly reminding everyone what a gibbering idiot he is, maybe a lot of his supporters will stay home.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:20 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's more chatter online than usual in communities Hebridean about the debate last night; turns out a lot of people stayed up to watch it (no thanks to the appalling broadband many people there still have to endure, but that's another thing). Not surprising, as several of Trump's relatives live there and there is more local knowledge of his family background than in the general press. The comment that made me smile was:

"An t-asal did not look well last night. It is perhaps the time to phone the veterinarian and make the arrangements."
posted by Wordshore at 6:20 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


My mic was defective within the room

I love the qualifier, "within the room". Because I bet we can take that mic to a lab and test it and find it works fine.

If you're defensive after the debate, you lost. I bet Clinton isn't complaining about anything today.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:22 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]






Jalliah, yeah, but I don't so much mean "can they stand that foreign press will mock him" as much as "WTF, did they even listen to him ramble about his ten year old son as his answer to cyber security? He could not have sounded more incompetent if he tried. How can they be willing to get behind that level of incompetence under the guise of greatness? Where is their cognitive dissonance?"
posted by instamatic at 6:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regarding the Trump base:

The reality is short of coming out in a white hood (and maybe not even then) I'm not sure that he could hemorrhage his base of supporters. They don't seem to be particularly shocked that he talks in a racist and sexist manner pretty much all the time. They like him for it because it normalizes that behavior.

What's very interesting is that if you assume that in general education is heavily correlated to social class it seems like the lower socio-economic class white male is completely willing to have a Billionaire? who inherited a large percentage of his wealth represent them. Not because he represents who they are currently but who they aspire to be: rich and privileged and allowed to abuse the system to their own profit.
posted by vuron at 6:24 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]






On the other hand I really doubt "tricks down trumponomics" is ever going to be a thing, so who's the real winner here?
posted by Artw at 6:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The "they're both terrible" narrative is resilient

I've largely stopped Facebooking in the last couple of years, but I popped in last night to see one of my wife's friends (who has spent most of her life in rural upstate New York) complaining that they're both unlikeable, and people will vote for whomever they'll vote for, and we should stop calling each other names and discussing politics.

This is someone who, last time I looked, a month or two ago, ranted about how it was unfair that "the media" was trying to make her "feel bad for being white." So.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Does Clinton saying that Trump doesn't and hasn't paid income tax suggest that her campaign actually has his returns?

As he can't go for more than a few minutes without bragging about himself, I would guess that he's bragged about not paying taxes to plenty of people.
posted by Bunglegirl at 6:29 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


@MeetThePress: .@chucktodd: #debatenight exposed Trump's lack of preparation, but Clinton seemed over-prepared at times.

I know it's Chuck Todd but I don't understand this line at all. What is it trying to say? How is over-prepared a negative and a criticism? What are people using this line of thinking trying to put out there exactly?
posted by Jalliah at 6:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh boy respectability politics is super fun. People are allowed to discuss issues as long as white people aren't offended but cross that line and wham!

Apparently a large percentage of white America is completely happy to go with "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"
posted by vuron at 6:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


What are people using this line of thinking trying to put out there exactly?

Those damn striving women are trying too hard.
posted by chris24 at 6:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


You know what I want to see in a debate? A moderator who's queued up video clips of what each candidate has actually said, so when they cite prior statements in a question, if someone says "I never said that" they can just call out "Play the tape" and have inarguable evidence on a giant screen. Of course it would come across as incredibly biased, since one candidate is known for denying the past and one isn't, but it would be very satisfying.

So Jon Stewart's Daily Show as moderator.
posted by srboisvert at 6:33 AM on September 27, 2016 [31 favorites]


Finally caught up! Just wanted to thank everyone for doing a good job of providing context so I could figure out what was being talked about. It made reading the thread a lot more understandable and enjoyable.

Oh, just and maybe use this opportunity to make a bookmark too.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:34 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Already seeing some suggestions Clinton was given the questions beforehand, and that's why she seemed better prepared.

She wasn't better prepared because she, you know, prepared while he obviously goofed off; she was prepared because someone cheated to help her. Sigh.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:34 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


What's very interesting is that if you assume that in general education is heavily correlated to social class it seems like the lower socio-economic class white male is completely willing to have a Billionaire? who inherited a large percentage of his wealth represent them

Again, it is not lower-income folks who are supporting Trump. This is a myth.
posted by argybarg at 6:34 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


Those damn striving women are trying too hard.

Ahh, okay got it. I didn't make the connection with the 'trying too hard' sexist Trope. Makes sense now.
posted by Jalliah at 6:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


mhum: "The IRS has already gone on the record that there are no laws or regulations preventing this."

Yes, but I've seen this come up in interviews over and over, and they nearly all fact check him with the IRS response, and Trump falls back on something like his lawyers and accountants are giving him this advice. It's always a dead end. But him bringing it up on his own during a debate is ... such a gift.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Again, it is not lower-income folks who are supporting Trump. This is a myth.

SOCIAL class, not economic class. Low-education white people are the biggest Trump voting bloc by far.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:37 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Whether or not Clinton was correct to say he pays no income taxes is irrelevant. The only way he can disprove the claim is to produce his income taxes. If he only releases selective years that conveniently show him paying some taxes, the campaign can just demand he produce as many years as she has released. If he in some strange universe actually released all of them, the campaign (again assuming he does pay taxes) just hammers him on how little he pays or how small his income is or what he's lost money on over the years, while quickly "apologizing" for not knowing he actually did pay taxes. After all, many wealthy people manage to hide most of their income from the tax man so it's an understandable mistake to assume he did!
posted by R343L at 6:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, let's face it, he pats no income tax. That's pretty much a given.
posted by Artw at 6:40 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also I don't have a transcript handy but I thought her first mention of his taxes was more in a tone of "why wouldn't you release? Could it be because ... ?" which is not a positive assertion about his actual income taxes. Until he basically agreed he pays no income taxes and that's smart.
posted by R343L at 6:40 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


Well, let's face it, he pats no income tax.

Sure he does, after he puts it in his pocket.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, that was fun. Not every day you get to watch a historic event in real-time that people will be discussing 50 years from now.

And if it's true that 100 million people watched—and in particular, if most of them watched right up to the end—then I'm content that this hurts Trump's chances, on the whole. Nobody will care about the next two debates, absent literal pants-shitting or actual physical alteraction.

But judging from the deeply unpleasant dreams I had last night, I've reached the point for every election-news-junkie when you realize you need help. Gonna quit cold turkey, barring some truly game-changing October Surprise.

So I'll see you on the other side.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


Already seeing some suggestions Clinton was given the questions beforehand, and that's why she seemed better prepared.

Oh, she was given the questions beforehand, for sure, by her prep team.

Seriously, the questions were basically, "how do we get more jobs in America?", "how can we heal racial strife?", and "how can we make ourselves safer from our international foes?". It's not like you need to steal a copy of Lester Holt's crib sheet to venture that these topics might come up. I could have predicted the questions for this debate, and I'm not even a fraction as policy-savvy or media-savvy as Clinton's crew is.
posted by jackbishop at 6:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [77 favorites]


And if it's true that 100 million people watched—

Are these just US numbers? I'm curious if it is what it might be with international viewers added in. At least 15 of my extended family were watching. I know because of the Facebook comments. I also counted half a dozen more posts and then comments from Canadians that made it clear others were watching.
posted by Jalliah at 6:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The problem for Trump is that he has largely restricted access to him and his campaign to sycophants and softball-tossers. The questions he's used to being asked are "WHY ARE YOU SO SUCCESSFUL?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]




Already seeing some suggestions Clinton was given the questions beforehand, and that's why she seemed better prepared.

Didn't they both get the questions beforehand? Wasn't that, like, the debate format?
posted by LionIndex at 6:51 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Nobody gets the exact questions beforehand. But it's not like rocket science.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:52 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, I was watching this with a small group of fellow Hoosiers and we all did spit-takes when Donaldski mentioned Indiana as a place being basically a total wreck, effectively throwing his running mate, Pence, under the bus, but I cannot recall the exact quote. Can anyone help me out here?

Danke!
posted by Thorzdad at 6:55 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Any loss for 4chan is a gain for humanity.
posted by Artw at 6:55 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]




The shoulder wiggle
posted by srboisvert at 6:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Screen caps of alt-right 4channers losing their minds.

"Why can't this motherfucker formulate a coherent sentence" is a question I wish the media were talking about more. He's so so bad at putting together sentences. The way he uses the word "nuclear" makes me want to tear my hair out. "Nuclear is the single greatest threat"? That's not how that word works!
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [28 favorites]


Already seeing some suggestions Clinton was given the questions beforehand, and that's why she seemed better prepared.

I love this. Like the subject matter was top-secret, the questions all pertaining to arcane corners of American history or dialectic materialism, rather than the moderator gently prodding each candidate about their campaign's biggest respective scandals, and then asking three variations on "this thing is bad in America, how should we make it less bad?"
posted by Mayor West at 6:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


Already seeing some suggestions Clinton was given the questions beforehand, and that's why she seemed better prepared.

Which explains how she nailed Lester Holt's trick question about the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow.
(Which, in turn, also explains Holt's mysterious absence for most of the debate.)
posted by entropicamericana at 6:59 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


That's not how that word works!

You sound like a very against-Trump commentatist.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:59 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Exactly. It's not like any of the questions were hard questions. I'd bet everyone in this thread could have confidently answered them better than DearOrange did.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:00 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton and Holt tricked him into talking more than them.
posted by Artw at 7:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


The debate transcript, on Politico. From that, to answer the Indiana question a few comments back:

But we have to stop our jobs from being stolen from us. We have to stop our companies from leaving the United States and, with it, firing all of their people. All you have to do is take a look at Carrier air conditioning in Indianapolis. They left -- fired 1,400 people. They're going to Mexico. So many hundreds and hundreds of companies are doing this.
posted by Wordshore at 7:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, I was watching this with a small group of fellow Hoosiers and we all did spit-takes when Donaldski mentioned Indiana as a place being basically a total wreck, effectively throwing his running mate, Pence, under the bus, but I cannot recall the exact quote. Can anyone help me out here?

Was it his comments about Carrier leaving Indiana? "All you have to do is take a look at Carrier Air Conditioner in Indianapolis. They fired 1,400 people. They're going to Mexico. So many hundreds and hundreds of companies are doing this, we can not let it happen."
posted by duffell at 7:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


The way he uses the word "nuclear" makes me want to tear my hair out. "Nuclear is the single greatest threat"? That's not how that word works!
"The security aspect of cyber."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [34 favorites]


That seemed weirdly specific.
posted by Artw at 7:02 AM on September 27, 2016


WSJ: "Undecided Voters React Coolly to Donald Trump During Debate: Republican’s performance might turn off people who aren’t already his supporters, interviews find"
posted by chris24 at 7:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Why can't this motherfucker formulate a coherent sentence" is a question I wish the media were talking about more. He's so so bad at putting together sentences. The way he uses the word "nuclear" makes me want to tear my hair out. "Nuclear is the single greatest threat"? That's not how that word works!

I'm beginning to suspect he's part doge. "Such nuclear! Much biggest!"

much sorry, doge
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 7:04 AM on September 27, 2016 [68 favorites]


I also think despite protests here and elsewhere if Holt had been any more controlling of the debate, cutting Trump off after his time, they'd claim he was being unfair and keeping Trump from saying his peace. Letting Trump ramble was exactly what Clinton needed, Trump invariably strangles himself when given enough rope.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:05 AM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


Shamelessly stolen from my Facebook feed this morning, a post-debate survey:

Which is more dangerous
  • the cyber
  • Very against police judges
  • Sean Hannity's Disappearance
  • the nuclear
  • CHINA
  • are jobs
  • bigly
posted by Mayor West at 7:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [80 favorites]


HRC knows he pays no income tax.

Like Mr. Encyclopedia said, this is one of those things that for Dems would be a deal breaker, but for Rs - including #NeverTrump Rs like me - is a snooze fest. Ds tend to view paying taxes as a patriotic duty, but this POV is bizarre in R land. I fully expect and am fine with rich people donating to charity to avoid taxes. This won't win converts.

What will win converts is him being a shitshow, the weird nonanswer of the birther conspiracy, him ridiculing people's weight, and saying "Why not?" to Hillary's "Am I at fault for everything?"
posted by corb at 7:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


He talks like the 80s guy in Futurama.

"Nuclear is the single greatest threat. Let me fix blank."
posted by mrgoat at 7:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


chris24: @MeetThePress: .@chucktodd: #debatenight exposed Trump's lack of preparation, but Clinton seemed over-prepared at times.

vuron: How can you be overprepared for being President?

Really, she's overqualified. She's trying too hard. And she didn't smile enough.

*SMASH ALL THE THINGS*

(Picks up all the pieces, to be glued back together later)

I think this comes back to what people want from a President: do you like Dubya because you can see drinking a beer with him, or Obama because you want someone smarter than you to be this country's leader?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


I bet he's mad because everyone saw him lose to a girl.
posted by lkc at 7:10 AM on September 27, 2016 [31 favorites]


Well, that was awesome. I watched the debate with my housemate and my infusion nurse, and we were all frothing with rage every time Trump opened his mouth.

My nurse did my third blood pressure check after the debate started, looked at the numbers with wide eyes, and said, "...let's just try this one again after Hillary's rebuttal."
posted by invincible summer at 7:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [98 favorites]


Really? Paying no taxes doesn't resonate with any republican voters? Like I get voters not caring that a rich man pay a higher percentage but surely even most republican voters care that the rich man contributes similarly to them. Certainly when I was more conservative (and lived in a conservative area) people seemed to care about that. But that was 15 years ago so maybe it's just changed.
posted by R343L at 7:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


We'll be able to tell how Trump thought he did by how many tweets he makes mocking people today.
posted by drezdn at 7:11 AM on September 27, 2016


Honest question, corb: how bad would the tax dodges have to be for it to become a problem on the taxes-are-bad R side? Would felony fraud do it?

Also, I feel like the charity issues have gotten unfairly tied up with the tax issues -- the laws he violated are tax laws, but the fundamental fraud was collecting money for a "charity" and spending it on himself.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


The only thing that Hillary didn't do last night was pull the ol' "Douchebag says what?" gag. She could have gotten away with it.

I've never seen a more ill-prepared, shit show of a sentence fragment factory than Trump. This country will once again be the laughingstock of the world if he gets elected. And don't think it can't happen. We've elected stupid before. Stupid, arrogant, and unstable isn't that big of a leap.
posted by prepmonkey at 7:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I fully expect and am fine with rich people donating to charity to avoid taxes.

Provided that they actually are donating to charity, and as far as we've seen Trump doesn't appear to.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


I watched the debates. I thought Clinton did well. Trump started OK (for Trump) but thankfully devolved into lunacy pretty early on.

That being said, I just want to put it out there that this debate feels like the decisive final paragraph in an ongoing essay that should be titled, "It's The White Supremacy, Stupid.". For decades, the GOP has had a laundry list of positions that were absolute dealbreakers in a candidate of any party, and yet their chosen nominee has spent the campaign repeatedly at odds with that list. The deafening silence of the NRA and right-wing pundits on Trump taking that to new heights last night should be definitive proof that at the end of the day, the only position that the GOP actually gives a shit about and will actually hold their ground on is that a candidate be willing to perpetuate white supremacy.

To them, everything else is negotiable.
posted by tocts at 7:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


She's trying too hard. And she didn't smile enough.

Included in the myriad ways that women cannot win, no one likes a woman who shows that she did the work, it has to look effortless, so that way they can later claim that she only got lucky or had help (inevitably from a man).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


I fully expect and am fine with rich people donating to charity to avoid taxes.

But wouldn't it make a difference that Trump's "charitable" giving is basically using other people's money to spend on himself?
posted by FJT at 7:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hey Donald, story time. (Great story, worth the click.)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [49 favorites]


I fully expect and am fine with rich people donating to charity to avoid taxes. This won't win converts.

Trump was directing income to his charity to avoid taxes, then using the charity to pay for business/personal expenses tax free.

No one should be fine with that.
posted by winna at 7:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [69 favorites]


I'm not sure - 15 years ago I was a Green - but in most circles now it's more "the Feds will waste your money/spend it on bad things, every dollar you can deny them is good." It'd be more damning if he didn't spend any money on charity, which is another possibility Clinton raised.
posted by corb at 7:16 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you think taxes are theft and greed is good (and charity is for suckers), you won't care.

If you believe in the social contract, you should at least care a little bit.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:17 AM on September 27, 2016 [34 favorites]


I kinda suspect his net worth is a fraction of what he claims and he's actually up to his armpits in debt to the Russians and Chinese. I think a lot of us do.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:17 AM on September 27, 2016 [28 favorites]


It'd be more damning if he didn't spend any money on charity, which is another possibility Clinton raised.

I'll take that, because it's as proven as it can be without his returns that he hasn't donated a dime of his own money to charity for years. (God bless David Farenthold for his dogged patience reporting out that angle.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:19 AM on September 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


Someone has already created 400 Pound Hacker (@400poundhacker) on Twitter

450 Pound Hacker has just accused Trump of underestimating him. [false].
posted by srboisvert at 7:20 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]




Ds tend to view paying taxes as a patriotic duty, but this POV is bizarre in R land.

I can't tell if "R" stands for "Russia" here. It's hard to tell these days. Certainly anyone who's thrilled to watch a would-be oligarch boast about cheating the US and US citizens doesn't sound like an American to me.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


argybarg: Trump is a reality-TV guy who blooms with editing. He'll throw out dozens of asides, some of them bizarre, but there's always the six-second chunk in there that's golden. For months the media have been doing that editing work for him. Now America got to watch the unedited outtake reel and it's terrible.

QFT. Especially the the third sentence.
posted by Gelatin at 7:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


Honestly if I were designing ads, I wouldn't even compare Trump to Clinton, but rather Trump to Republican leaders- show, say, happy faces for the other Rs pet charities, then show Trump's gold plated houses, with bible commentary about mansions in heaven vs mansions on earth.
posted by corb at 7:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


Alexandra Petri at WaPo gives a glorious recap of the Mansplaining Olympics last night.
posted by TwoStride at 7:24 AM on September 27, 2016 [31 favorites]




And yeah, they should be hammering harder on his charity fraud. It's a big deal to be a rich man and have no charities- when even middle class families like me have serious charitable giving. He gives no time and very little money. Love to see Hillary work in that Trump stiffed veterans charities, because that is a huge deal.
posted by corb at 7:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


An on-topic thought: has anyone seen actual viewership numbers for TV and such or is that not available yet? Brian Selter lists some online viewership numbers on Twitter:
At least 1.6 mil people are watching the debate live on YouTube.
1.1 mil via NBC's stream,
250k via PBS,
210k via WashPost,
80k via Fox News


Did this come close to beating Monday Night Football? At least in New Orleans, this venerable Saints fan was in the streets, moderating David Duke's mic time

how many millions of people just got a 90-minute lesson on how male fragility is screwing up their country?
posted by eustatic at 7:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Somebody's got a nose for parody Twitter accounts:

@TrumpSniff

@TrumpSniffle

@trumpsniffs

@Trump_Sniffs

@TrumpSniffed
posted by zakur at 7:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


"He could even be paying $0 still and still be (technically, legally) correct about that. But he let it go, probably because he doesn't pay any amount of income tax... - and thus set the ground for "Donald Trump, Tax Dodger" baiting from the media."

So what are the possible avenues for paying zero tax?

The ones that come to mind as a non-business-owning homeowner are 1) massive capital losses 2) carryover of even bigger losses and 3) TIFs up the wazoo on his developments.

Those are all bad optics for Trump if brought up in discussion. Either he's not great at capital-B-Business, or he's sucking at the teat of government benefits and tax breaks.

What am I missing?
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:33 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


hey guys

guys

remember when it was 2004 and the presumptive favorite for the democratic ticket lost the nomination because he yelled too loudly at one of his own rallies, which made him unstable and therefore unelectable (or something)?

those were crazy times
posted by Mayor West at 7:33 AM on September 27, 2016 [88 favorites]




but in most circles now it's more "the Feds will waste your money/spend it on bad things, every dollar you can deny them is good.

Okay, but this is where I hit a wall on Trump supporters. It sounds like they want more roads and infrastructure and seem to agree when Trump says China or Japan is outbuilding the US. But they can't seem to make the connection that this infrastructure spending requires more taxes (either higher taxes or a larger tax base) and more government to administrate this.
posted by FJT at 7:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [55 favorites]


I'm with Howard Dean on the sniffling thing. I give even odds Trump comes on stage at the next debate with a Neil-Young-in-The-Last-Waltz hunk of blow on his upper lip.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


@sopandeb: "Trump: "No sniffles. No. You know, the mic was very bad, but maybe it was good enough to hear breathing, but there was no sniffles."

Every Time Donald Trump Sniffed at the Debate
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:36 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


All of the highest-profile third-party candidates spent Monday in New York, riding along with the media herd. Stein's only media exposure came when she arrived for an MSNBC interview, walked away, and was stopped by security guards who told her she lacked proper identification.

By pure coincidence, independent #NeverTrump candidate Evan McMullin was watching from across the street as Stein and her staff packed into a van and sped off. Alongside a trio of strategists, he was waiting for the credentials that would let him roam around Hofstra for interviews.

"Getting arrested does sound like fun," McMullin said. "It's less work than having an actual policy discussion. We could actually get that done right now."

David Weigel, Third party candidates at the debate: Little heard, and definitely not seen
#McMullimentum!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:36 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


The Art of The Cyber
posted by drezdn at 7:37 AM on September 27, 2016


I lasted about two weeks before I had to re-un-follow some white guys on Facebook who are consistently posting "BOTH SIDES ARE BAD" bullshit. The straw breaking the camel's back was that Clinton and Trump "Both said some dumb shit" at the debate.

It's like there was a writing contest and Clinton wrote the next Romeo and Juliet, but misplaced a single apostrophe, while Trump shat onto a keyboard and threw the paper at the judges.

Verdict: Both candidates are flawed.
posted by 0xFCAF at 7:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump has decided that a good PR strategy to pursue this morning is to double down on attacks on former Miss Universe Alicia Machado. Because that's a smart and winning strategy.
Okay, but this is where I hit a wall on Trump supporters. It sounds like they want more roads and infrastructure and seem to agree when Trump says China or Japan is outbuilding the US. But they can't seem to make the connection that this infrastructure spending requires more taxes (either higher taxes or a larger tax base) and more government to administrate this.
Yeah, I don't think you can simultaneously whine that US airports aren't nice enough and think that nobody should be paying any taxes. I mean, you certainly can, but it doesn't make any sense.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [42 favorites]


What am I missing?

My bet - and it's still damning, because in my head it's Not Really Charity - is that he lets charity orgs use his incredibly lavish houses for fundraisers, then deducts what it would have cost them to rent an incredibly fancy house for a day.
posted by corb at 7:40 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Can someone explain to me how Trump's anti-trade stance resonates with so so so many business leaders who have wholeheartedly embraced globalism?

Like how in the hell do those two stances reconcile with each other?
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:40 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think the chances of it being cocaine are fairly low. Why risk it, these days? He has a doctor who does whatever he's told, and god knows Adderall makes my nose run like a faucet. Coke isn't the only stimulant that can make you incoherent if you take it when you're not sleeping enough.
posted by Sequence at 7:40 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


I didn't watch the debates (self-care!) but listened to the CBC radio morning news. I forgot which bar in Ontario they used audio from, but there was a sea of laughter as Trump spoke. (I am guessing some bars were using the debates as spectator sport?)

Also, very irritating to hear the female US p.r. in the segment who said both candidates were terrible and that the US could have found better ones.
posted by Kitteh at 7:40 AM on September 27, 2016


And yeah, they should be hammering harder on his charity fraud. It's a big deal to be a rich man and have no charities- when even middle class families like me have serious charitable giving. He gives no time and very little money. Love to see Hillary work in that Trump stiffed veterans charities, because that is a huge deal.
posted by corb at 7:30 AM on September 27


it would also be a good moment to educate people on it's the middle class that give more who is really giving to charities.
posted by eustatic at 7:41 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I fully expect and am fine with rich people donating to charity to avoid taxes. This won't win converts.

Except that I strongly suspect that he doesn't pay taxes due to a convoluted system of leveraged ownership whereby other people's money is used to hold real estate but Trump is able to claim depreciated value on "improvements" to said real estate thus offsetting his tax burden while simultaneously gaining in the appreciated value of the same.

I also strongly suspect that it will show is actual wealth is small, because all of the billions he "owns" are mortgaged or collateral - often to foreign investors. His stray comment about "very low leverage" last night was a classic tell from his usual investment pitch, imho. He's the opposite.

Maybe many R's don't mind folks trying to make money by risking other people's money, ditching the losers before folks notice and hiding the winners to not pay taxes on the gain. Trump calls it "smart". But it isn't the same sort of All-America and Apple Pie business story we like to tell.
posted by meinvt at 7:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


Can someone explain to me how Trump's anti-trade stance resonates with so so so many business leaders who have wholeheartedly embraced globalism?
It doesn't. Wasn't there a report the other day that not a single Fortune 100 CEO had donated to Trump? I think that the business wing of the Republican party is sitting this presidential election out.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


"What kind of man is he? He is insults his parents with his behavior. He humiliates them with such low class manners."

It's, like, a jillion years ago in thread-time, but I want to touch back on this comment that Sublimity brought up about the old-school Chinese lady and this election.

I'm second-gen Chinese-American*, and from a family background similar to the one brought up in the NYT comment. My father is a generation younger than the mother in that recounting, but still so old-school that he doesn't trust democracy. Instead, he believes that government should be run by bureaucrats selected for service by examination**. In the meantime, because he is not a trained and educated that way, and only has a PhD in organic chemistry, he should not vote.

Another aspect of the old-school-ness: misogyny. So much misogyny.

My father is an first-gen Hillary hater. Like, we're talking being angry DURING THE 1992 ELECTION that Hillary was taking such a prominent role in her husband's campaign. One of my first political memories is of my dad snarling about how much he hated the "two for one" thing. It's very much rooted in the traditional Confucian ideas that it's good to let women be educated, and it's good for your women to be tough, and it's good for them to be able to earn a living and support a family because what if they marry a wastrel of a man, but that women should stay to the side in public life because [insert bullshit gender essentialism]. By taking an active role in government because Bill was POTUS, Hillary Clinton violated those rules, and my dad felt like American culture was asking him to congratulate her for breaching his sense of propriety.

In the 20+ years since 1992, he has mostly gone further right***. His primary TV watching has been nature documentaries and Fox News, to the point where this man who has an advanced degree in a hard science, believes that climate change is a myth.

In short, my father has hated liberals and Hillary Clinton for almost an entire generation, but this time? He's voting for her.

That's how terrible Trump is.

This fall, for the first time since emigrating to American THIRTY-ODD YEARS AGO and becoming a citizen ALMOST TWENTY YEARS AGO

my father is going to cast his first vote for a candidate of any kind

and it's going to be Hillary

and he doesn't even care that he lives in a deep blue state, because he feels, so deeply, on such a personal basis, the need to repudiate this low-class know-nothing proud of his ignorance

and that's even before Trump bragged on a national stage about not studying



* first-gen, second-gen, not always popular terminology, but I like it for me, because it captures the way that my family has in the US for almost 40 years, and is still Other on a daily basis.

** My sister and I have had multiple conversations about how, by these metrics, Hillz should be his FAVORITE EVER. If rising in government were a matter of grinding studying followed competitive test-taking????????????? But alas, culturally-validated misogyny is a hell of a drug.

*** After watching a documentary on Netflix, though, he now accepts that living conditions for black people under Jim Crow were bad, which is a big change. Back when I was in college, we had a knock-down dragout fight over whether MLK had ever "done anything" worthwhile. I am not joking.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [205 favorites]


#TrumpWon now trending on Twitter, because of course it is. Who cares what actually happened any more? Just say whatever you want happened and poof, it did.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Certainly the true supply-side true believers among Trump's coalition aren't going to care about his tax situation, but you don't get to his competitive numbers in the polls on those dead-enders alone. You've also got a lot of Republicans in there who've abandoned supply-side voodoo economics, along with independents and Democrats who are sucked in by his anti-trade messaging, the xenophobia, and whatever else. I think it would hurt him, and he knows it too or he would have released them just to settle the issue.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The charity stuff. Of course. Thanks for the detailed info, corb/cjelli/meinvt.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


It may be unlikely, but I still like the theory that Trump totally busted some caterpillar sized rails before he came out. It would, in retrospect, explain so much of his personality. I HAVE GOT SUCH GREAT IDEAS. THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST HOTEL EVER!!! [SNOOOORRRRRRKKKKKK]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:45 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]




It would, in retrospect, explain so much of his personality.

It also explains tweeting like Bret Easton Ellis locked up with an eight-ball
posted by thelonius at 7:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Clinton goes right after Trump's new comments on Alicia Machado, with a tweet showing the great ad about her:

Trump on Alicia, 1996: "Miss Piggy."

This morning: "She gained a massive amount of weight...it was a real problem."

posted by chris24 at 7:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Either he's not great at capital-B-Business, or he's sucking at the teat of government benefits and tax breaks.

The Republican position is that taxes are the government illegitimately taking your money from you under threat of violence or imprisonment -- tax breaks aren't therefore sucking at the teat of the government, but using their own rules against them to get closer to the Right and Proper state of affairs, which is paying zero taxes.
posted by beerperson at 7:52 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


IAmUnaware: " He has money but it was given to him, and in every other way he is objectively a loser. The guy has been a punchline in our popular culture for like 25 years. Are there seriously people who can look at him and see "winner"?"

They see themselves in his not-ready-for-Manhattan behavior and style, while at the same time aspiring to his wealth and fame. Despite his privilege, Trump always felt like an outsider to the elite crowd he craved to be a part of. No matter how much money he had, his mannerisms and taste betrayed his Queens upbringing. It still happens. People like Mark Cuban and Michael Bloomberg are constantly putting him in his place. He's not putting on an act when he openly nurses resentment of the elites who will never consider him one of their own. Even though so many of Trump's supporters have plenty of unexamined privilege, they see themselves as outsiders to an elitist culture they don't understand anymore, one which ignores their concerns or views them with contempt, as they perceive that opportunities are passed along to others who don't deserve it (I'm not saying it's accurate, just perception). It's not that their resentment is sympathetic, but that they definitely share something in common with Trump that connects at a deep emotional level.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:53 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Another thought:

Has there ever been a more straightforward example of "privileged white dude wants a cookie for performing minimal humanity" than Trump literally requesting to be praised for seriously considering trashing Clinton based on her private life, and then choosing in the moment not to?

Dude might as well have said, "You know, I was going to steal your wallet, but then I decided not to. I deserve great credit for that.".
posted by tocts at 7:54 AM on September 27, 2016 [79 favorites]




#TrumpWon now trending on Twitter, because of course it is. Who cares what actually happened any more? Just say whatever you want happened and poof, it did.

What if #TrumpWon was created ironically to bait Trump voters?
posted by mochapickle at 7:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


This morning: "She gained a massive amount of weight...it was a real problem."

Double Down Don. It could tie in with his KFC shoutout. The cross promotional opportunities are limitless here people.
posted by Talez at 7:57 AM on September 27, 2016


Moments from Republican Twitter:

Steve Deace: "Trying to remember the last time "the moderator was biased" guy won an election."

David French: "After the first 15-20 minutes, it was like the SS Trump hit the iceberg, then backed up and hit it again just because."
posted by corb at 7:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [78 favorites]


Has there ever been a more straightforward example of "privileged white dude wants a cookie for performing minimal humanity" than Trump literally requesting to be praised for seriously considering trashing Clinton based on her private life, and then choosing in the moment not to?

Well, patting oneself on the back for allowing black people into one's country club comes to mind.
posted by duffell at 7:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [63 favorites]


I fully expect and am fine with rich people donating to charity to avoid taxes.

I can't comprehend this. Rich people are rich in large part because their busineses benefited from government-funded investments in education, transportation, communication, justice, and rule of law. They operate in a lucrative marketplace built and maintained by taxes.

To not pay back into that system is nothing other than a greedy self-serving "fuck you".
posted by rocket88 at 7:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [88 favorites]


When I see Trump's portraits I think of Oliver Cromwell telling Hans Holbien to not paint Henry VIII as he was 15 + years ago, or "Henry will think you're mocking him."
posted by drezdn at 7:59 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Co-worker's husband:

"I wish Joe Biden would have run with Elizabeth Warren as his running mate. They would have won in a landslide!"

*sigh*

Any woman *except* Hillary, any man *instead of* Hillary.

And this was said during the debate.
posted by cooker girl at 8:00 AM on September 27, 2016 [30 favorites]


Greg Nog: no idea, but here's the transcript about it.

TRUMP: Wait. The AFL-CIO the other day, behind the blue screen, I don’t know who you were talking to, Secretary Clinton, but you were totally out of control. I said, there’s a person with a temperament that’s got a problem.
posted by chris24 at 8:00 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Regading the Trump trade plan Peter Navarro outlines the Trump economic plan via MarginalRevolution
In a nutshell Trump proposes eliminating America’s $500 billion trade deficit through a combination of increased exports and reduced imports. Ya right!
see also Trump’s a Businessman. Where’s His Business Backing?
posted by robbyrobs at 8:01 AM on September 27, 2016


but using their own rules against them to get closer to the Right and Proper state of affairs, which is paying zero taxes.

That "right and proper state of affairs" for many on the right is "taxes are for peasants."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


If you think taxes are theft and greed is good (and charity is for suckers), you won't care.

If you believe in the social contract, you should at least care a little bit.


I think we know where Republicans stand on the social contract. Fuck you, got mine.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


This is a good morning.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Thank you Mr. Trump.
Thank you for not preparing for the debate believing that the halo of your ego was all-protecting.
Thank you for answering policy critiques as though they were personal attacks.
Thank you for thinking questions about Chicago were questions about your property.
Thank you for believing taxes are for suckers and that the 2009 housing crisis was good business.
Thank you for repeating all of your inane talking points while pausing for canned applause.
Thank you for not ever looking remotely presidential.
Thank you Mr. Trump for being Trump.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


Bill probably said something really stupid
posted by angrycat at 8:03 AM on September 27, 2016


he believes that government should be run by bureaucrats selected for service by examination**.

I have always thought that in my ideal world this is pretty much how everything should be run.
posted by winna at 8:04 AM on September 27, 2016


Serious question: does anyone know what the fuck the "blue screen" anecdote was about?

He saw her talking to someone and in his mind she looked like she was crazy and out of control.
Likely he saw an intense if not heated discussion about something and of course that means she's nuts. It's the same old sexist perception bias that if woman show ANY sort of intensity or anger, 'OMG she's a crazy bitch blah blah"
posted by Jalliah at 8:05 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Despite his privilege, Trump always felt like an outsider to the elite crowd he craved to be a part of. No matter how much money he had, his mannerisms and taste betrayed his Queens upbringing.

This is not a "Queens" thing. This is a nouveau-riche, money is the be-all and end-all of one's ego thing.

There are at least four or five (Forest Hills, Jamaica Estates, Bayside, Little Neck, etc.,) areas of Queens with quite wealthy residents who do not feel the need to boast and flaunt how much money they have, and who do not coat everything within sight with a layer of gold leaf, black marble or brass.

Trump has become a symbol in New York and abroad for tacky and tasteless excess. Part of that may be the man's ego and personal taste, but at least some of it is probably calculated. He's made his money by selling an image which appeals to people just like him, who are also nouveau-riche and want to advertise how much money they have, or can afford to spend.
posted by zarq at 8:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [29 favorites]


This is a good morning.

And it just got better: BAM! Consumer confidence jumps to highest since Aug. 2007! http://bloom.bg/2cQTKWN
posted by chris24 at 8:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Serious question: does anyone know what the fuck the "blue screen" anecdote was about?

He seemed to be trying to shame her by saying he'd overheard her dressing someone down at the AFL-CIO the other day and felt it was a gotcha moment that proved she was more ill-tempered than people realize. Even if this were true, Hillary correctly understood that: a) no one knows what he's talking about; b) if neither cameras nor reputable witnesses saw it, it effectively didn't happen; and c) no one gives a fuck, the debate was about what the American people want.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I assume the "blue screen" thing was this, which was making the conservative rounds for Hillary being "angry" and "crazy." It was addressing LIUNA not AFL-CIO.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think of Oliver Cromwell telling Hans

Minor correction: s/Oliver/Thomas/
posted by kingless at 8:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Very young children will close their eyes and think therefore no one can see them. They can't comprehend that someone is experiencing something different than them. They'll say "remember when I ..." and tell you about something that happened only to them when no one else was there.

There you have Trump's developmental level.
posted by argybarg at 8:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


"This election draws into relief how women are penalized for not being perfect while men are rewarded for not being terrible."

FTFY
posted by rp at 8:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Turn down for WHAT
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:10 AM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


I assume the "blue screen" thing was this, which was making the conservative rounds for Hillary being "angry" and "crazy." It was addressing LIUNA not AFL-CIO.

Ugh, that would be even more pathetic a thing to bring up. He really just doesn't understand that he's not trying to score points in a boardroom, he's trying to curry the favor of the voting/viewing public.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:11 AM on September 27, 2016


Among the many things the Orange Ragemonster said that I just can't figure out how anyone is supposed to parse:

"The Fed is keeping interest rates at 0 for shady political reasons..."

Ok, so the logical inference from that it is he would like interest rates to go up.

"...If they raise the interest rate, bad things will happen!"

Wait, what? So then, keeping it low is a good thing, for good economic reasons, not "political" ones?
posted by dnash at 8:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


I am confused by the #TrumpWon tag.

Because South Korea uses the won, and North Korea uses the "Korean People's Won." So which Koreans would be paying off Trump? Last night the North heard Trump say that he think China ought to roll over them -- but I can't see anyone in South Korea actively wanting China to start a shooting war and afterwards have a bigger role on their peninsula. Very confused.

I mean, personally I think he's paid in rubles, right?
posted by wenestvedt at 8:11 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


When I see Trump's portraits I think of Oliver Cromwell telling Hans Holbien...

When I see Trump's portraits I think of Oliver Thomas Cromwell telling Hans Holbien...
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, if there were one thing I wished for from the debates, it would have been to see MORE of the fire she brought in that "blue screen video." More. That is in NO WAY a bad look for her.
posted by instamatic at 8:12 AM on September 27, 2016


Got a small report from the field. I watched the debate at a party thrown by our local Democrats, along with my colleagues from the campaign office. We had a full venue of people who are actually engaged with politics!

The lead up to the debate had a lot of people feeling pretty nervous. Secretary Clinton really brought her A-game, though, and the mood was very positive, especially as she baited her opponent AND talked about her plans and understanding of our nation's problems. Lots of cheers for her talk about racial justice, affordable college, and the need to invest in clean energy.

The debate further laid bare how much I am read for this woman to be President of the United States.

I'm voting my conscience; I'm proudly voting for Hillary Clinton.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 8:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [35 favorites]




Field Report:

On campus parking was full this morning, so I needed to park in the satellite lot and take the shuttle bus in. The shuttle driver listens to (normally annoying but basically innocuous) sports radio. This morning the three sports radio guys were talking about the debate. All three guys agreed that Trump was "terrible" and "embarrassing" ("I'm embarrassed to be in the same party with him.") They talked at length about how much they hate Hillary ("like a robot at Chuck e Cheese" "boring" "she's a mess") but at least one of the three said flat out that he couldn't bring himself to vote for Trump because he was so "terrible". Then they took callers. The first caller (only one I heard) sounded like a guy from Southie/Boston; said he was going to vote for Trump but was now pretty mad because of the "too smart to pay taxes" thing. Caller noted that he hates paying his taxes too, but "taxes pay our troops, support our great military and veterans" and essentially said he wasn't voting for Trump because he felt like not paying taxes was "cheating".

That's the only call I heard, but I walked off the bus this morning feeling pretty good.
posted by anastasiav at 8:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [70 favorites]


No matter how much money he had, his mannerisms and taste betrayed his Queens upbringing. It still happens. People like Mark Cuban and Michael Bloomberg are constantly putting him in his place. He's not putting on an act when he openly nurses resentment of the elites who will never consider him one of their own.

Except that Mark Cuban and Michael Bloomberg both come from humble beginnings and their grandparents were Russian immigrants. Cuban' father was an automobile upholsterer and Bloomberg's father was a bookkeeper. If they were able to join the elites, what prevented Trump from doing the same?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


He really came off like the belligerent drunk in a barroom discussion, waiting for something he understood well enough to argue about.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


#TrumpWon now trending on Twitter, because of course it is. Who cares what actually happened any more? Just say whatever you want happened and poof, it did.
On @foxandfriends @realDonaldTrump said he won a @CBSNews post-debate poll. We did not conduct a post-debate poll.
Major Garrett @MajorCBS
posted by octobersurprise at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese."

"I did not say that! I did not. Oh, hi Mark."
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [37 favorites]


I assume the "blue screen" thing was this, which was making the conservative rounds for Hillary being "angry" and "crazy."

He really does live in a Chan/Breitbart bubble, doesn't he?

If only there was a way of physically ejecting those fuckers out of this universe and into the one they think they live in.
posted by Artw at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Thank you for not preparing for the debate believing that the halo of your ego was all-protecting.
Thank you for answering policy critiques as though they were personal attacks.
Thank you for thinking questions about Chicago were questions about your property.
Thank you for believing taxes are for suckers and that the 2009 housing crisis was good business.
Thank you for repeating all of your inane talking points while pausing for canned applause.
Thank you for not ever looking remotely presidential.
Thank you Mr. Trump for being Trump.


Uh, could we try thanking the person who actually worked hard?
posted by amtho at 8:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


people refuse to call sean hannity

just call sean hannity

you never write you never call
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hoo boy, Hillary is feeling it. Latest tweet:

"Anyone who complains about microphone problems is not having a good night." —Hillary #SheWon
posted by chris24 at 8:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


LOL
posted by My Dad at 8:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump
Hillary's been failing for 30 years in not getting the job done - it will never change.
She's failing at not getting the job done?

Trump fail at sentence construction. Trump failing at learning English? That's unpossible!
posted by Talez at 8:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Uh, could we try thanking the person who actually worked hard?
posted by amtho at 11:14 AM on September 27
Thank you, Hillary, for being so over prepared you fucking focus grouped the number of your blinks.
posted by instamatic at 8:17 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Except that Mark Cuban and Michael Bloomberg both come from humble beginnings and their grandparents were Russian immigrants. Cuban' father was an automobile upholsterer and Bloomberg's father was a bookkeeper. If they were able to join the elites, what prevented Trump from doing the same?

His temperament.
posted by Jalliah at 8:17 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


people refuse to call sean hannity

just call sean hannity

you never write you never call


The Keepin It 1600 bros did call him (the former-Jeb!-comms-guy they had on had Hannity's number) and he hung up on them!
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:17 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump
Hillary's been failing for 30 years in not getting the job done - it will never change.
She's failing at not getting the job done?

Trump fail at sentence construction. Trump failing at learning English? That's unpossible!


He's not even mad. Actually he's laughing right now.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 8:18 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Another missed opportunity for Trump from last night just occurred to me:

CLINTON: ... And one of the things [Putin has] done is to let loose cyber attackers to hack into government files, to hack into personal files, hack into the Democratic National Committee....

SEMI-COMPETENT TRUMP FROM AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: The Democratic National Committee can't even secure its own servers against an outside attack. This is the party we're supposed to trust with national cybersecurity?

(For bonus points, then pivot to Clinton emails on a private server with intimations about how well they were secured.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:18 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump failing at learning English

Surely you mean Trump failing in learning English.

God, I wonder what proportion of Trump supporters have ever judged a non-white, immigrant ESL speaker for getting a preposition or whatever wrong.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:19 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just call Sean Hannity

The folks at Keeping it 1600 did, he hung up on them.
posted by waitingtoderail at 8:19 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


TwoStride: I'm waiting for Hillary to point out that Trump's merchandise is all made in China.

That never happened, right? Trump kept talking about how terrible it is that other people are sending jobs overseas, and despite her ad that is simply Letterman pointing out where Trump's branded clothes are made.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:19 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]




If they were able to join the elites, what prevented Trump from doing the same?

Utter lack of style or class? Inability to contemplate, let alone empathize with, a world that exists beyond the bounds of his own skin? Incredibly obvious insecurity he tries to veil with obnoxious self-aggrandizement...?

I could do this all day.
posted by invincible summer at 8:20 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


corb: Ds tend to view paying taxes as a patriotic duty, but this POV is bizarre in R land.

I think this is something that should be spelled out in much more direct language by Democrats. When we say it's our patriotic duty to pay taxes, we are saying "We need to pay taxes so that health care for wounded veterans is funded. Donald Trump is saying he is 'smart' not to pay for health care for wounded veterans. We need to pay taxes so that Medicare is funded. Donald Trump is saying that he is 'smart' not to pay his fair share so that seniors may have medical care. We need to pay taxes so that our children can go to school. Donald Trump is saying he is 'smart' not to pay his fair share so that our children can go to school." If everyone "gave money to charity," which Trump is obviously not doing, there would be no US military, there would be no schools, there would be no roads, there would be no firefighters, etc. etc. etc. I don't think I need to go on. It is my patriotic duty.
posted by Slothrop at 8:21 AM on September 27, 2016 [156 favorites]


I've been thinking about that episode of South Park where Cartman and Wendy fought, but that's a bad comparison, right? I mean, Trump has nowhere near the long-term planning capacity of a third grader.
posted by ckape at 8:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]




I think we know where Republicans stand on the social contract.

With respect, I think this is not just an uncharitable assumption, it's entirely incorrect. Republicans and Democrats may operate on very different beliefs about what the social contract is, and it's reasonable to think one or the other is more effective, but it's just plain wrong to suggest that Republicans believe they have no responsibility for the state of society. It also contributes to the factors that are helping Trump's rise.

The Republican social contract relies heavily on civic engagement and a version of noblesse oblige - on individual, voluntary contributions to charity and political efforts, on participation in low-level government, on church participation, on patriotic participation and display. It is about building success to be able to share it with the deserving. It is different, and it's fine to think worse, but it exists.

Trump doesn't follow any of that. He is literally the greediest, most vulgar violater of the social contract - the Republican social contract - that has ever been on the ticket. He doesn't give much to charity, he has ostentatious wealth, he stiffs contractors, he's never involved in politics except to bribe, he doesn't attend a church, and he doesn't display patriotism. By the Republican scale, he does not hold up his end of the bargain.

You lose that when you say "Republicans are all greedy." You lose the ability to point out that this candidate, even by his own party's standard, is greedy beyond measure. He is the personification of Mammon, a literal prince of hell. And all he offers is damnation.
posted by corb at 8:25 AM on September 27, 2016 [92 favorites]


It is about building success to be able to share it with the deserving.

Well, in that case, I stand corrected. The deserving.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [54 favorites]


I think this is something that should be spelled out in much more direct language by Democrats.

I thought she did a good job with that with the "if he’s paid zero, that means zero for troops, zero for vets, zero for schools or health." You can't think "we need to support the troops, we need to pay down the debt, we need to make our communities safe" and not believe in paying taxes at all. Conservatives have priorities for things they want the government to do that it can't do without taxes, and at least two of her items were things conservatives generally back.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:27 AM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


It is about building success to be able to share it with the deserving.

The deserving. Who just coincidentally look a lot like them.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:28 AM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


Trump is just Republicanism without the dig whistles and the excuses, they really are all that greedy and parasitic.
posted by Artw at 8:28 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]




It is about building success to be able to share it with the deserving.

Well, in that case, I stand corrected. The deserving.


Wow. Yeah, I think "the deserving" is maybe best left in the quiet rooms Romney talked about.
posted by chris24 at 8:29 AM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


Quick notes for people who want to (re)watch the debate off-line: you can right-click the embedded video and "save as" from C-Span's webpage, and it's 307mb. Or you can just read NY Times' transcript (embedded, auto-starting video there, too, but no easy option to save that, and I had no luck saving the various official YouTube sources in the OP).
posted by filthy light thief at 8:31 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


individual, voluntary contributions to charity and political efforts

And even after all these years this value is impervious to the reality on the ground.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]




Has there ever been a more straightforward example of "privileged white dude wants a cookie for performing minimal humanity" than Trump literally requesting to be praised for seriously considering trashing Clinton based on her private life, and then choosing in the moment not to?

It was so unsettling to watch that buildup. He spent thirty seconds convincing us (or himself, more likely) that he was about to lay a Great Truth Bomb on us, and my mind immediately went into "which tired, debunked-a-million-times non-story is he going to give us? Bengazi? Will he point at Gennifer Flowers in the audience? Repeat Limbaugh's horrible 'joke' about the White House dog?" mode, as I tried to figure out where he could possibly be going with this. And then... it just petered out, like watching a five-year-old struggle to summon the most blistering retort he can muster, and then firmly proclaim "Well YOUR MOM didn't think so." It didn't even occur to me until this morning that he thought he had scored points in that exchange, because he'd shown restraint by not hurling childish insults across the podium.
posted by Mayor West at 8:34 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


> "I wonder if this means he's finally going to say the 'thing he could say, but won't'."

He already did.

Once you say, "I am not going to bring up The Thing!", you have just brought up The Thing. Everyone knows that, because that's how language works, unless like Kellyanne Conway you are being paid to pretend otherwise.

Trump also did it on another subject during a morning interview today. "[Lester Holt] gave me very unfair questions at the end, the last three, four questions, but I’m not complaining about that."

When you follow a complaint by "but I'm not complaining" it's the same as bringing something up and then saying you're not going to bring it up. It's part of his MO.
posted by kyrademon at 8:35 AM on September 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Color me relieved. It didn't take a "relentless, savage, and surgical attack", just a couple of pokes and off he went, fazoozling around the room like a balloon.

Thank you and A+, Madame Secretary.
posted by whuppy at 8:36 AM on September 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


By the Republican scale, he does not hold up his end of the bargain.

You lose that when you say "Republicans are all greedy." You lose the ability to point out that this candidate, even by his own party's standard, is greedy beyond measure.


And yet they're still voting for him. Most poll-watchers see his rise in the last few weeks as Republicans "coming home" to vote for him. So if anything, the more vulgar he's become and the greedier he's sounded the more Republicans seem OK with voting for him. By the Republican scale, they don't care that he's not holding up his end of the bargain. You can't blame that kind of behavior on everybody else saying that conservatism has become about greed and vulgarity. There's a lot of stuff "moderate" conservatives and NeverTrumpers said and did to create Trump, so attempts to rewrite history or shift the blame to people who have been pointing this out for decades ring false.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:37 AM on September 27, 2016 [48 favorites]


it's just plain wrong to suggest that Republicans believe they have no responsibility for the state of society. It also contributes to the factors that are helping Trump's rise.

Heavens, I don't believe that. I know many Republicans who dutifully pay their taxes and what have you. I didn't say that Republicans didn't believe it was a patriotic duty to pay taxes, you did.

And it has nothing at all to do with Trump's support. Trump's riding a wave of resentment and revenge. His only constant promise is to hurt someone or something; he just changes who the someone or something will be from moment to moment. I imagine you know that better than I do.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


corb : The Republican social contract relies heavily on civic engagement and a version of noblesse oblige - on individual, voluntary contributions to charity and political efforts, on participation in low-level government, on church participation, on patriotic participation and display. It is about building success to be able to share it with the deserving. It is different, and it's fine to think worse, but it exists.

Yes, respectfully, I do think it is a considerably worse, not to mention anachronistic, way of looking at society. Just to give one example, the US government went to the moon 50 years ago, while billionaires expressing their "noblesse oblige" currently struggle to make a functioning spacecraft. Are individual, voluntary contributions going to fund a Hadron collider? Are individual, voluntary contributions going to stop the spread of Zika virus? Are individual, voluntary contributions going to reduce the influence of radical terrorism? I don't mean to attack you, as I have watched you participate in these threads in good faith for the past few months. I just think our society needs to have a real, serious conversation about these issues because conservative platitudes about taxes and government effectiveness have reached the level of being duplicitous and destructive.
posted by Slothrop at 8:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [162 favorites]


This was like the answer to that question about whether, if you could, you would go back in time to kill Hitler. No. You'd just need to stop him by revealing he's a buffoon.
(Thanks, Hillary)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]



So from what I can gather from my travels:

Trump won because:

Hilary came off like a robot.
She talked like she had an earpiece or she was reading off her contact lenses (the technology exists you know) So she cheated and everyone somehow knows this or when they know they will care SO MUCH.
Every single online poll shows Trump won.
Time Magazine says he won.
Some undecideds in a PA bar mostly went for Trump. (I didn't read the article but it's being posted a lot)
A reporter at the Boston Herald says so. The gist is that while Hilary did okay Donald did so well in the first 20mins that it cancelled everything out.
More about winning every online poll.
Hillary is a liar and Donald proved it over and over and over.
He showed how mean she is. (summarized from words I will not repeat)
Hillary is a big meany and was drugged.
Hillary coddles black people and Donald says it like it is and of course (and finally) everyone can see that without question. (eww and ugh)
She called him a racist and boy was that out of line. This is going to hurt her so much you know.
Trump was right about the lady who got fat and everyone in their heart of hearts knows this even if they can't say so but it will come out when people vote because they can secretly vote for what they really think. He's brilliant to use this strategy, just brilliant I say.


And yeah that's about it. I will now have a shower and come back to a world that I actually understand.
posted by Jalliah at 8:39 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


I liked the moment near the end where the Republican candidate imploded into a fine red mist of narcissism and misogyny. The special effects were spot on.
posted by sutt at 8:40 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


The justification I'm seeing from Trump supporters online: he held back on purpose, and will go for the jugular during the 2nd and 3rd debates.
I wonder if this means he's finally going to say the "thing he could say, but won't".


I'm leaning more toward "literally tries to assault Clinton on stage".
posted by indubitable at 8:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm a young American expat and I'm afraid to go home (slTO Star).

As an American landed immigrant in Canada myself, my response is: Cynicism or not, go vote in absentia because by not voting, you're part of the problem.
posted by Kitteh at 8:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]




And then... it just petered out, like watching a five-year-old struggle to summon the most blistering retort he can muster, and then firmly proclaim "Well YOUR MOM didn't think so."

FUCK YOU, CLOWN
posted by Etrigan at 8:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


I actually sort of pity Trump's advisors, who clearly had a plan on how to proceed, clearly worked hard to train him on how to execute it, watched him do a semi-serviceable job of doing so for maybe the first twenty minutes, then had to watch him easily baited by stuff they most assuredly fucking told him was coming, then had to stand by the monitor watching him become a belligerent, rambling, sniffling mess.

I mean, I don't feel that sorry for them. It's what you get for trying to polish a turd. But still. They had to have tried.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:46 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


A reporter at the Boston Herald says so.

Was it Howie Carr? I have to assume it was?

If so, for those who aren't locals, Carr is ... ugh. It's hard to explain. I would probably at this point say, "a crank". If you go way, way back, he was once sort of a curmudgeonly uncle type who spent his career lambasting politicians, and since MA is more or less a one-party state his focus was often on Democrats. Biased, yes, but also someone with a pretty interesting insight into the history of a lot of the shady shit that goes on in basically all one-party states (but particular to MA).

In the last 10 years or so, he's gone from "curmudgeon who you might disagree with but has done some decent work" to "dude might as well be channeling Alex Jones, but is still on the Herald payroll". Also, he has had a hangup for the Clintons since they first arrived on the national scene, and that hangup has only gotten worse over time.

So, Howie saying Hillary lost the debate is about as credible as Trump saying his performance was tremendous.
posted by tocts at 8:46 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


fazoozling

I am keeping this word.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 8:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [38 favorites]


The Republican social contract relies heavily on civic engagement and a version of noblesse oblige

OMG I almost forgot about this. If the Republican social contract, by their own admission, really does depend largely on an centuries-old economic model that contributed to politics of domination, keeping the poor in their place through moral determination of their place in society, and the subjugation of entire classes and races, then it doesn't do much good to claim they're not greedy and vulgar. That's exactly the kind of greed and vulgarity that gives us despotic narcissists like Trump, and they have no one and nothing to blame but themselves.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [59 favorites]


I have recently decided to move to the woods, become an old crone witch and start casting spells on men that irritate or otherwise vex me, starting with one Cheeto Benito.

I am adding to my list. Included as of last night is Chuck Todd, Hugh Hewitt and Jeffrey Lord. Samhain is going to be a real blast this year.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


someone finally added the official debate soundtrack

I must have watched this over 20 times last night. I laughed and laughed.
This is the moment that I fell in love with Hillary because I so can relate to that face. I know she must have been coached and practiced it as a response but she has also had to have perfected that face over 30 years. I think so many women can relate to sitting there in some situation and having to very consciously look calm, collected and poised while in their heads 'wtf is up with this guy and I have to just sit here and be all cool because if I don't.... I mean wtf? But also wow he's an idiot. He sure is coming across as an idiot. Ha ha Oooo boy."
posted by Jalliah at 8:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


If fazoozling isn't in next year's OED, there is no justice.
posted by hexatron at 8:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm a psych nurse who works evening shifts. I got off work completely worn out yesterday night as the debate was ending, read the storm of "what the fuck was that" comments on social media, decided I'd spent enough of my day among people with delusions of grandeur and poor boundaries, and immediately called it a night.
posted by ActionPopulated at 8:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


I understand the urge to make larger points about Republicanism, but given that corb is going out of their way to be the hypothetical cool republican we wish would come around for these political threads, and given that we all can bond on how hard the Donald sucks, maybe we could try and cut them a break?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:52 AM on September 27, 2016 [60 favorites]


The Republican social contract relies heavily on civic engagement and a version of noblesse oblige - on individual, voluntary contributions to charity and political efforts, on participation in low-level government, on church participation, on patriotic participation and display. It is about building success to be able to share it with the deserving. It is different, and it's fine to think worse, but it exists.

My data point is my parents who benefited loads from government and worked at places that were funded by government, but hate paying taxes. They will literally try to argue that being taxed on capital gains is double taxation because they were taxed on income before they invested it. They will also talk about how great it is that Bill Gates gives away money to fix the world's problems, but give absolutely no money to charity ever. They are retired in a gigantic house in Southern California, but can't give to charity because they are on a fixed income. Their entire sociopolitical worldview is based around creating a wall of self justification for their own greed. You basically sum it up very well except for the fact that the tax evasion and complaining is real, but the voluntary charitable contributions are completely imaginary.
posted by snofoam at 8:54 AM on September 27, 2016 [34 favorites]


Was it Howie Carr? I have to assume it was?

No Tom Shattuck Shattuck: True blue-collar billionaire Donald Trump shows Hillary Clinton is out of touch

It looks like Howie Carr didn't say that she won per say but that all she did was act like herself, a Clinton and that was bad.
posted by Jalliah at 8:55 AM on September 27, 2016


I know she must have been coached and practiced it as a response

I think she was drawing inspiration from John Krasinski or Eddie Murphy.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:55 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm not a Republican but I have to jump in to defend corb's ideas of the Republican social contract. Taken liberally, the idea of civic engagement is something nobody could argue with. We all should be engaged in making our communities and our nation into better versions of what they are now. And if by noblesse oblige we mean the old definition of "privilege entails to responsibility", then yes I think we all agree that those with privilege, be it whatever kind of privilege, have an obligation to society. With great power comes great responsibility, etc.

That some Republicans don't live up to this social contract shouldn't take away from those who do their best to do so.
posted by math at 8:55 AM on September 27, 2016 [38 favorites]


DirtyOldTown : given that corb is going out of their way to be the hypothetical cool republican we wish would come around for these political threads

Yes, I agree. I won't say anything further about taxes, and I want to reiterate that I have seen corb participate in good faith these last few months. I do hope my commentary isn't seen as a personal attack. I'll go back to just reading.
posted by Slothrop at 8:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


The problem I have with the noblesse oblige model is the oblige is actually at the discretion of the individual with the power/money/land/what have you, and a quick look at the increasing wealth disparity both here and in the rest of the world will show you how that discretion is being exercised.
posted by Mooski at 8:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [44 favorites]


the hypothetical cool republican

with the like aviator sunglasses and kickflips and everything
posted by beerperson at 9:00 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


Meanwhile in a parallel dimension.

(author is a former employee of the Tribune-Review, the Scaife-owned right-wing rag in Pittsburgh.)
posted by dforemsky at 9:00 AM on September 27, 2016


I understand the urge to make larger points about Republicanism, but given that corb is going out of their way to be the hypothetical cool republican we wish would come around for these political threads, and given that we all can bond on how hard the Donald sucks, maybe we could try and cut them a break?

Are you asking us to not respond? Republicans have embraced some pretty vile legislation over the last 20 years, some of which literally contributed to the oppression of various minority groups (as well as women) and prevented them from achieving equal civil rights. Ignoring the actual social policies that are part of the GOP platform in favor of an imaginary fantasyland in which Republicans don't espouse and defend the philosophy "Fuck everyone else, I've got mine" is flat-out not gonna happen.
posted by zarq at 9:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [45 favorites]


I think she was drawing inspiration from John Krasinski or Eddie Murphy yt .

I think it's way more likely that she's drawing from experience, like winna said upthread, "If anyone wonders what it's like to be a woman in a meeting getting talked over - this is what it is like." No need to draw inspiration from men on tv when it's a face many women have to wear every day (Jalliah made this observation as well, as have probably lots of women in these threads!).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


also the deserving poor
posted by moody cow at 9:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I have plenty of issues with the personal charity argument -- mostly that it's capricious, but also that it's inevitably narrow and subjective -- but I think corb is right that Trump represents a kind of grand travesty of those conservatives who believe sincerely in tax-deductible philanthropy and put their money where their mouths are.

As the Guidestar CEO noted, he gives erratically; he also expects excessive gratitude and some kind of tangible reward for his businesses. He's not trying to provide clean water or eradicate polio or even just keep a local church or library or orchestra running.
posted by holgate at 9:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


I really want a Jewish president in 2024. Because after the black president and the woman president, I think it should be the last thing we need to make bigots everywhere self-immolate.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


National Treasure Charles Pierce: Why Would You Vote for a Man This Insecure?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


The deserving. Who just coincidentally look a lot like them.

Is there a reason some mefites always take the least charitable view possible on Corb's descriptions of Republicans?

What she is describing is not far off from my republican mother (also a Nicaraguensa). She is deeply Catholic and deeply patriotic. For her, "the deserving" is the least among us. She has spent decades volunteering with organizations that help the poorest in St. Louis, and decades helping documented, and undocumented, immigrants get on the path to citizenship. When I was kid, she would make me go to naturalization ceremonies to see the people she helped and see them overcome with so much joy. [As an aside, I encourage all of you to witness a naturalization ceremony at your nearest courthouse that does them. It's fucking amazing.]

Are there those who have corrupted ideas about "the deserving"? Absolutely! I have another republican family member who says that "the only problem with the black community is that they need to learn to behave themselves" and therefore does not put the victims of racist systems in the category of "the deserving". But even he still does a lot charity work for the poor.

On the flip side, I have a couple liberal friends who advocate for government programs to aid the poor, but do no actual charity work themselves. For them, directly aiding the needy around them is not really a civic duty.
posted by Groundhog Week at 9:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [37 favorites]


I do hope my commentary isn't seen as a personal attack. I'll go back to just reading.

Oh no, you were very kind, and please do keep participating, and in any other conversation or thread or even memail I would love to have a serious discussion of it! I only didn't respond because I think these threads are so big there's only room for "these are the actual views/policy platform" not "let's argue whether those views are correct" because boy howdy would that be enormous and make our mods have to tear our their hair.
posted by corb at 9:04 AM on September 27, 2016 [47 favorites]


I think so many women can relate to sitting there in some situation and having to very consciously look calm, collected and poised while in their heads 'wtf is up with this guy and I have to just sit here and be all cool because if I don't.... I mean wtf? But also wow he's an idiot. He sure is coming across as an idiot. Ha ha Oooo boy."

I have a less-skilled version of that on my face at least once a week. At least. In bad weeks, it's multiple times a day, sometimes for multiple hours at a time.

Every working lady professional friend of mine has a version, too.

Shockingly, we're all voting for Hillary.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:05 AM on September 27, 2016 [32 favorites]


"Are you asking us to not respond? Republicans have embraced some pretty vile legislation over the last 20 years, some of which literally contributed to the oppression of various minority groups (as well as women) and prevented them from achieving equal civil rights."

Corb's been walking a tightrope. She's done a great job explaining conservative rationales and beliefs without devolving into an argument about their relative merits. I think we should respond in kind. It's what puts the Meta in Metafilter.
posted by klarck at 9:10 AM on September 27, 2016 [79 favorites]


So, um, is the final consensus shaping up to be that Trump melted down big time and really blew this debate by showing what a blustering empty suit in a bad toupee he really is? I missed it, but the bits I have seen and heard in clips definitely make it seem like a slam dunk win for Clinton in the end. But I heard Diane Rehm this morning saying no one could say with certainty who had won this.

Stimmt das? Does that seem right?
posted by saulgoodman at 9:10 AM on September 27, 2016


corb is going out of their way to be the hypothetical cool republican

corb has said she is "Republican-ish (even if the party has left me behind)" so possibly she is a cool Republican in that she is not actually a Republican
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:10 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean there are good-faith arguments to make in favor of all kinds of conservative policy principles, but the national Republican Party as an institution working to appoint Trump as President is working to destroy the country and the larger world and is truly reprehensible and uncool
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


Regarding whether Trump admitting he doesn't pay taxes is going to play well.

Keep in mind the vast majority of Americans do the EZ form or take the standard deduction. The amount they pay in taxes is pretty much the same year to year assuming there is no major life events.

Keep in mind a sizeable percentage of Trump's core voting block are white working class males with a high-school education. These are not people that are going to be able to reduce their tax burdens by using charitable deductions and tax exempt annuities and all sorts of other tax breaks designed primarily for middle class and wealthier families.

I think it's delusional to say that people will just simply laugh off the idea that Trump is Smart because he avoid paying his fair share of taxes. They'll go WTF this guy is supposedly worth 10 billion (he's not) and he has a smaller tax bill than I do?
posted by vuron at 9:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]




If they were able to join the elites, what prevented Trump from doing the same?

It just occurred to me, that a pretty good contrast for Trump is Bill Gates. Both come from fairly prosperous upbringings, and the narrative is that both of them capitalized on that leg up to become incredibly wealthy (for Gates this part is at least true; in Trump's case it is unclear just how much he added to his inheritance). Both of them, in the 90s, were kind of regarded as jokes (Berkeley Breathed in particular got a lot of mileage out of both) and not really welcome in the best society.

Today, Trump is still a joke (if not a very funny one), because he never found anything better to do with himself than himself. Gates earned respect by plowing his billions into charitable work and actually taking an interest in something further from him than his own nose.
posted by jackbishop at 9:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [29 favorites]


True blue-collar billionaire Donald Trump shows Hillary Clinton is out of touch
The only way Trump has ever been "blue collar" is if said collars were carved of lapis lazuli.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


The Boston Globe's resident right-wing commentator that isn't Jeff Jacoby (Eric Fehrnstrom, whose claim to fame is being a Romney advisor and we know how well that turned out) sniffed this morning that Hillary "didn't do enough", which is somewhat at odds with the more frequent right-wing complaint that she was too prepared.
posted by yhbc at 9:14 AM on September 27, 2016


I think corb is right that Trump represents a kind of grand travesty of those conservatives who believe sincerely in tax-deductible philanthropy and put their money where their mouths are

The thing is, and as I said earlier in this thread, Trump represents a grand travesty to practically every single supposedly inviolable conservative principle, and yet his support among conservatives has been quite solid. This points to the fundamental truth of the GOP: for the majority of conservatives, none of the things they hold up as their core principles actually matter. They talk a good game, but ultimately they're willing to compromise on any and all of them, just so long as it means promoting a white dude who says he'll hurt minorities and women and put muslims back in their place (e.g. elsewhere).
posted by tocts at 9:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [47 favorites]


I mean there are good-faith arguments to make in favor of all kinds of conservative policy principles, but the national Republican Party as an institution working to appoint Trump as President is working to destroy the country and the larger world and is truly reprehensible and uncool

no no calmly and rationally explaining white supremacy is very punk rock
posted by beerperson at 9:16 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


I have a less-skilled version of that on my face at least once a week. At least. On bad weeks, it's multiple times a day, sometimes for multiple hours at a time.

At my last job it was every Tuesday and Friday morning during the skype call with developers of the software the factory was implementing. It was just me, my boss and them. I had to get pretty good at it. Sitting for 5-10mins of blabber about something (more often than not about some understanding that was wrong) was my practice time. I also got practice at holding boss off when I was talking (he was an interupter big time), weighing the pros and cons of trying to interrupt myself in order to clarify or correct or just patiently wait until he was done his whole looong throught process and then quickly speak to the developers about the correct understanding using words and manner that he wouldn't take badly. I got really good at 'correcting' without making him feel like he was totally wrong. (had to protect the ego because with ego got bruise my job became harder).

I related so hard to so many of the tactics she deployed last night. To me it was very obvious and I expect I'm not alone at being able to clearly see them.
posted by Jalliah at 9:16 AM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


That some Republicans don't live up to this social contract shouldn't take away from those who do their best to do so.

Of course not, but if someone's worldview relies on a level of voluntary social support to others that has never been seen, it's right to question whether that worldview can survive first contact with actual human beings who do selfish things for selfish reasons.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:17 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


"Nobody's going to be talking about it tomorrow but the multiple mentions of Sidney Blumenthal, a guy basically nobody has heard of, was some real creepy breitbart crypto-antisemitism"

Just because you haven't heard of him doesn't mean that "basically nobody has heard of" him especially since he's one of the major figures in the Clinton's circle.

Here's the Wikipedia page on him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Blumenthal

I first heard about him when the Hillary Clinton email thing came out because Guccifer hacked into Blumenthal's email account when he discovered Hillary's emails and realized that she was running her own email server.
posted by I-baLL at 9:19 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]



The round up of editorials and articles admit a poor performance from Trump, if not an outright homerun for Hillary, but what is the origin of the screenshot of polls that vote Trump as the winner of the debates that I keep seeing on Twitter (mainly in the replies)? Is it photoshop? Polls from right wing sites? Alt-right flooding the online polls?
posted by like_neon at 9:21 AM on September 27, 2016


It also contributes to the factors that are helping Trump's rise.

It's remarkable/insane/hilarious that this tweet, almost precisely two years old, is still in Trump's feed:
I wonder if I run for PRESIDENT, will the haters and losers vote for me knowing that I will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN? I say they will!

— Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
You know, it's possible that Trumpy has even more contempt for the people voting for him than he does for people voting against him.

(The Beginning of the End, which I saw on Sunday, has a call back to Trumpy in The Pod People and now I can't get "Trumpy you can do magic!" out of my head.)
posted by octobersurprise at 9:21 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


I mean, some people have heard of Blumenthal, but when the only person he attacked by name last night was Jewish, and his Twitter mob regularly attacks people for being Jewish, it kind of sure sounds like he's doing it on purpose.
posted by corb at 9:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


But I heard Diane Rehm this morning saying no one could say with certainty who had won this.

I'm in Canada, but the commentary on the CBC this morning was trying for neutrality in terms of the overall "who won" question while the specifics that were discussed basically supported the idea that Clinton was overall the stronger, better prepared candidate while Donald was much weaker and ineffective. I think that some members/outlets of the media are embracing the "we report what was said, you decide who won" type of reporting right now and leaving the opinion pieces to the opinion writers.

"Winning" is a slippery thing in a political debate; barring a major, major gaffe (and I'm not sure what would count as that in 2016), I find that in general the base of each side will claim victory. The real question is if anything moved the "undecideds" or the weak supporters of either side.
posted by nubs at 9:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Modern US Conservatism is undeniably built around a fundamental core of Male WASP identity. The entire Southern Strategy has been built transforming the south from a loyal block of Democrats (who were also really really committed to racism) into a loyal block of Republicans.

The trappings were completely different as scores of previously Democratic politicians switched parties but the essential core was always there and that core belief is that White Males are fundamentally better suited to being in charge of everything. Other groups are tolerable as long as they know their place in the divine order.

Republicans have tried to rebrand a handful of times over the last couple of decades with compassionate conservatism and their attempts to sell conservatism with Minority and Female candidates but the core message that they have been selling is maintaining the old social order where some people are privileged over each other and maintaining that social order is a good thing and people shouldn't have to feel bad for being white, etc.
posted by vuron at 9:24 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Just got back from my morning 5 mile run with my wife.

Looks like 'confident professional woman trounces an obnoxious interrupting lazy blowhard' might become a trend.
posted by srboisvert at 9:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


what is the origin of the screenshot of polls that vote Trump as the winner of the debates that I keep seeing on Twitter (mainly in the replies)?

That looks to me like a collection of those meaningless online website polls that assorted blogs and sites put up. You know, the kind like anyone can put on their own Twitter or blog, that aren't actually scientific polls with measured responses, just the things anyone can answer and that are regularly swarmed by one group or another. So it just means a bunch of sites put up "who do you think won" questions and at some point in time enough Trump followers had gone around to click his name on all of them to make him look like the "winner" on several of them.
posted by dnash at 9:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


The round up of editorials and articles admit a poor performance from Trump, if not an outright homerun for Hillary, but what is the origin of the screenshot of polls that vote Trump as the winner of the debates that I keep seeing on Twitter (mainly in the replies)? Is it photoshop? Polls from right wing sites? Alt-right flooding the online polls?

They screenshots of all sorts of online polls. The ones where anyone, from anywhere can click. Where you can click from multiple devices and with many if you know what you're doing and they're set up in certain ways you can click over and over.
And yes last night (I saw some posts) alt right put out the call for all their peeps to hit all the polls they could.

Now they bleating about how this proves he won.

And now it kinda funny because some of the polls, including Alex Jones twitter one (last time I checked) are now showing Hillary. Because bleating about, publicizes it to more people outside of alt right. (duh)

Plus people like me have voted on multiple devices when I come across one. Not because I think it makes some sort of world changing difference becuase it's funny and stupid.
posted by Jalliah at 9:27 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Corb's been walking a tightrope. She's done a great job explaining conservative rationales and beliefs without devolving into an argument about their relative merits. I think we should respond in kind. It's what puts the Meta in Metafilter.

Discussing the merits of various conservative beliefs remains important since they are so frequently hypocritical, oppressive or problematic. There is still a wide divide between the Conservative urge to "help" the poor and various other minority groups, while also maintaining their oppression and lack of rights. Conservatives who claim to love the "right kinds" of downtrodden people and then turn around and vote for politicians and laws that deliberately screw those same people over are not exactly rare.
posted by zarq at 9:29 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mod note: A couple comments deleted. The thread isn't about corb personally; and if people have metacommentary it should go to Metatalk.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:29 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


Alt-right flooding the online polls?

This. Online polls are very easy to rig, and 4channers (aka Trump supporters) are very good at it.

And I definitely saw a link to a right-wing site that basically had links to every online debate poll last night.
posted by Roommate at 9:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


If you haven't read this yet, you really should take a look:

(National Treasure) Charlie Pierce: Hillary Clinton Won Because Donald Trump Is a Sham. (And he couldn't be bothered to prepare for the biggest test of his life.)

"... He also claimed that "they" had given him a defective mic, by which he might have meant that it actually worked."

(That immediately follows his pre-debate take, "There Is Probably No Way for Hillary Clinton to Win This Debate; Post-truth politics trumps all, and nobody does it better than Trump." So you know it's going to be good.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]



Donald Trump’s strange speaking style, as explained by linguists
Is Donald Trump a throwback to ancient oratory — or an undisciplined rambler?
Via Vox
posted by robbyrobs at 9:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


And to be clear, this has nothing to do with corb. You're suggesting that we don't address a topic (or to be more accurate, ignore things that are relevant to it) because of the person making it. I don't think that's appropriate.
posted by zarq at 9:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


@MajorCBS

On @foxandfriends @realDonaldTrump said he won a @CBSNews post-debate poll. We did not conduct a post-debate poll.

He's lying about shit that is so easily fact checked. I know he thinks that at least some people will not hear about the fact check, but doesn't he realize there are plenty of people who will ONLY hear about the fact check?
posted by Sophie1 at 9:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Honestly any poll that allows for anonymous internet voting is bound to be gamed into oblivion by /pol/

The actual value of those polls are zero because seriously if they offered a write-in option you could probably get 60% Pepe support. It's that Alt-Right talking heads can pretend that their fake poll has as much weight as a scientific poll.
posted by vuron at 9:33 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


What we learned last night:

Donald Trump, a rich man, doesn't pay taxes.
Hillary Clinton, already doing her job as president, reassures the rest of the world that america is not gonna come for them.
posted by valkane at 9:34 AM on September 27, 2016 [32 favorites]


I mean there are good-faith arguments to make in favor of all kinds of conservative policy principles

Well, maybe, but if so, the leadership of the Republican Party and the modern movement conservatism it represent seem to have decided those arguments must be sure-fire losers, because rarely these days do Republican leaders make any argument in good faith. Instead you have people like Trump pretending that supply-side economics isn't the hokum that George H. W. Bush correctly called it way back in 1980.

I wish they would. America needs a sane, reasonable conservative party to act as a check on potential Democratic excesses, and I say so as a lifelong committed Democrat. There's a huge difference, though, between "we need to be careful not to raise taxes too high" and "the only acceptable tax policy is yet another cut for the wealthy."
posted by Gelatin at 9:34 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


Story about online polls.

10ish years ago I was involved in a very controversial conflict in a community that got lots of news coverage. A local paper would use these sorts of polls. There were some very horrible right wing, racist types involved and part of what I did was monitor their discussion boards in order to keep track and prepare for things that they did.
These folks would get all excited about a poll and how it PROVED they were right. Didn't matter that it was super small numbers involved like a couple of hundred was a good response. Or that a good chuck of people voting were like minded people from their discussion board who brigaded with no concept of how this meant bias.

I discovered that this poll was able to be got around by simply erasing cookies. So they were bleating and congratulating themselves on a poll and I decided to take half an hour and 'vote' until the numbers changed to be against what they were happy about.

This made them unhappy that the poll changed so much. Much handwringing discussion ensued.

I did this for about four months every single time they posted about a poll.

I don't feel bad at all.
posted by Jalliah at 9:36 AM on September 27, 2016 [62 favorites]


Prachi Gupta (the cosmo writer who had that call w Ivanka re the mat leave proposal) apparently sat down with Alicia Machado for lunch last week. Article here.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:36 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


I wish they would. America needs a sane, reasonable conservative party to act as a check on potential Democratic excesses

America has a sane, reasonable conservative party to act as a check on the potential excesses of the left. It's called the Democratic Party.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [51 favorites]


Trump represents a grand travesty to practically every single supposedly inviolable conservative principle, and yet his support among conservatives has been quite solid. This points to the fundamental truth of the GOP: for the majority of conservatives, none of the things they hold up as their core principles actually matter. They talk a good game, but ultimately they're willing to compromise on any and all of them, just so long as it means promoting a white dude who says he'll hurt minorities and women and put muslims back in their place (e.g. elsewhere).

And cut taxes. Never forget the sweet, sweet tax cuts.

I think it's delusional to say that people will just simply laugh off the idea that Trump is Smart because he avoid paying his fair share of taxes.

I have no doubt Team Clinton is focus testing variations on this theme for the second debate. Trump himself already gave her plenty of materials for ads for the foreseeable future. And what new lines of attack did Clinton open herself up to from her responses? Hardly a one.
posted by Gelatin at 9:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]




That some Republicans don't live up to this social contract shouldn't take away from those who do their best to do so.


The only problem I have with this is that it's based on the assumption that human beings can be trusted to act altruistically -- hell, even to act in their own delayed best interests.

That assumption is contradicted by reality. You simply cannot govern via unwritten, unenforceable rules of charity and civic responsibility that are only followed by a few good eggs, while the vast majority of the money and and power reside in the hands of those who would rather pad their own pockets than support their communities.
posted by invincible summer at 9:39 AM on September 27, 2016 [38 favorites]


dforemsky: "Meanwhile in a parallel dimension.

(author is a former employee of the Tribune-Review, the Scaife-owned right-wing rag in Pittsburgh.)
"

And we were very happy to see her leave town. The Trib is busy imploding now that Dicky Scaife has gone to the great private club in the sky and can't keep pumping all of his family's money into his little vanity press.
posted by octothorpe at 9:40 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


My view of the whole thing? Trump doesn't debate. He reacts. He started out relatively strong since he probably has some good writers and coaches working for him but as soon as Hillary said stuff he started reacting. And when he reacts he goes into a "fight or flight" mode and it's like he's in a sort of battle. He'll use what he can to "attack" his opponent while forgetting why he's there. That's why he twists the truth and flat out lies at times. And that's why he falls away from actual debate attack openings like the email thing or the Libya thing or the superpredator thing. He brought up LGA airport being a "third world" airport . He must've brought it up to mention that it was Joe Biden who called it that and to show that Joe Biden agrees with him but he obviously forgot why he brought it up because his ego seems to be telling him to react, react, react and that overrides all else. It's weird. I wonder if the whole debate's up somewhere so I can watch it again tonight.
posted by I-baLL at 9:41 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Curiously, the VP debate is likely to be the one where the differences between Republican and Democratic policy get highlighted. Any conversation involving Trump ends up about Trump and whatever Trump thinks this week, while Pence is the mouthpiece for post-Tea-Party Republican governance.

Not that going after Trump personally is a bad thing, but a vote for the President is also a referendum on an entire slate of appointments, which means a lot of people like Pence writing the laws and policy papers.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm kind of curious to know who stood in for Donald during Clinton's debate prep. I was just thinking about it because they must have had someone interrupt her constantly so she could get used to talking without breaking stride - I mean, whatever prepared her for that, she pulled it off solidly. Could be she's been doing it for years.

Although I still like to imagine people taking turns yelling "wrong!" while she was rehearsing. I wonder if she and her team had fun with it.
posted by teponaztli at 9:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Trump himself already gave her plenty of materials for ads for the foreseeable future. And what new lines of attack did Clinton open herself up to from her responses? Hardly a one.

This is a really good point. Of course I'm biased but I can't think of anything that she did or said that could open up a new line of attack. At least not anything substantial. Some of her answers were 'meh' policy wise but nothing that stood out as a possible avenue Trump and the right could take. Just the same ole same ole.

Trump gave her tons and he also did a bang up job taking away the topics where he might have been able to push her on something and got something. She didn't have to deflected. He did it for her by constantly ignoring and opening and coming back to defend himself.

He is a bad debater. Sad.
posted by Jalliah at 9:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh, and Hillary did pretty much as expected. The "Trumped up trickle down" seemed a bit forced but the "I prepared for the debate and I prepared to be president" actually came off a lot better and was probably the best line in the whole thing. And then Trump dug himself into a hole with his whole "I have the better temperament" schtick. Why did he even go there? It's hilarious.
posted by I-baLL at 9:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Good faith arguments built on transparently flawed assumptions are a dime a dozen. In a 2016 election thread, it seems like a waste of time to accept at face value a political worldview that requires people to be far better than they actually are in order for it to function, especially when no effort is made to reckon with the harm that will be done to people during the hypothetical transition from more government safety net to more charitable giving.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:45 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm kind of curious to know who stood in for Donald during Clinton's debate prep. I was just thinking about it because they must have had someone interrupt her constantly so she could get used to talking without breaking stride

It was Philippe Reines. But also, working her entire life as a woman in a male-dominated industry.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:46 AM on September 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Is there a reason some mefites always take the least charitable view possible on Corb's descriptions of Republicans?

Possibly because in the course of our lifetimes we've met a few republicans ourselves.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [49 favorites]


Coming in late: I was not able to watch the debates due to a combination of toddler bedtime and Trumprage-induced high blood pressure, but I listened to them after the fact, and while I'm certainly biased it sure seemed like a one-sided beatdown. To The Point on NPR this morning attempted to do the mealy-mouthed "both sides claim victory" thing, but even they couldn't sidestep the fact that most of what came out of Trump's mouth was gibberish. Of course that would dissuade the Trumpkins, but it does seem to put a hard ceiling on his potential appeal.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:48 AM on September 27, 2016


I just heard two Trumper ladies sitting next to me complain that Hillary will win

Yippie

They also called her a criminal but I don't care
posted by Tarumba at 9:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


"But also, working her entire life as a woman in a male-dominated industry."

According to Trump, that industry is "founder of ISIS."

/rimshot

Thank you! Thank you, folks! I'll be here all week. Try the fruit salad!
posted by I-baLL at 9:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]




I could have done it, stood there and ignored the interruption*. I bet any mid-level professional woman could've done it. It is, as I've said, my whole life.

Seriously, the only thing unique about the debate last night is that people are apparently surprised at a behavior that they must've seen a billion times in their career.

* I could not have smiled, though. I've been informed that I look like I'm about to go for someone's throat when I do it.
posted by winna at 9:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [30 favorites]


Hillary has virtually no current weaknesses other than "Female" and "Married to Bill Clinton" which is why any seeming weakness is immediately considered headline news.

Emails - can't trust her judgement
Benghazi - can't trust her judgement
Pneumonia - apparently on death's door

But because Trump is basically a walking billboard of personality flaws that should bar him from public office nothing seems to stick.

What last night showed is that Trump simply cannot make a good showing of looking Presidential, he is so taken in by his own constructed narrative of being the great man that he simply cannot pretend to be humble. And because he has no humility he feels like he is justified in doing everything in a half-assed manner because it's always worked for him in the past.
posted by vuron at 9:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Like seriously, that half hand raise she kept doing? Please watch in meetings this week for that gesture. It is so instinctive I found myself doing it along with her!
posted by winna at 9:51 AM on September 27, 2016 [35 favorites]





Good faith arguments built on transparently flawed assumptions are a dime a dozen. In a 2016 election thread, it seems like a waste of time to accept at face value a political worldview that requires people to be far better than they actually are in order for it to function, especially when no effort is made to reckon with the harm that will be done to people during the hypothetical transition from more government safety net to more charitable giving.


The thing about the noblesse oblige argument is that we've already seen it in action. Since 1980, every time there's been cuts to social services, the argument has been that charity and the market will pick up the slack - help for the mentally ill, for the impoverished elderly, for the homeless, etc. And it never does. Government is the most powerful, accountable and efficient method we have for delivering anything that needs to be provided consistently in the same format over time to a great variety of people across a large area. This is obvious if you look at examples from history, whether you're going back to the Inca and grain distribution or across the Atlantic to Norway or Finland.
posted by Frowner at 9:53 AM on September 27, 2016 [111 favorites]


He brought up LGA airport being a "third world" airport .

He did. He's talked about this before and it sounded just as ridiculous as it did last night.

I think Clinton purposely primed him to have the word 'airport' on his brain. Early she made a comment about her book being in airports. It sounded a bit weird but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was on purpose and that further analysis of things she said will find other instances of where she used specific words to jog Trumps brain.

As you said, he reacts and his brain jumps around and tries to make connections to words he hears and then his mouth just lets it out without a coherent filter. He hears 'airport' (brain says: hey airports, know what I think about airports? airports 3rd world, must talk about that, I talked about that before and people cheered, must find time and place to say that cause it's REALLY good) debate goes one until finally blurg, "AIRPORTS" (brain: phew got it out finally got that out).
posted by Jalliah at 9:54 AM on September 27, 2016 [97 favorites]


I was not able to watch the debates due to a combination of toddler bedtime and Trumprage-induced high blood pressure

Melania had the same problem, but she just took her toddler with her.
posted by jackbishop at 9:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Good faith arguments built on transparently flawed assumptions are a dime a dozen.

It's a good faith argument when the proponents change their tune after the transparently flawed assumptions are duly challenged. But as we've seen, modern movement conservatism is all about clinging to the transparently flawed assumptions, to the extent of constructing, at great effort and expense, an entire parallel media structure so that conservatives can believe global warming is a hoax, tax cuts increase revenue and whatever other nonsense they want to believe. (As I said upthread, Trump spewed some verbiage last night that may have made sense to someone who reads Breitbart, but no one else, not even a Fox News viewer.)

Congressional Republicans won't let the CDC even collect data on gun violence. Things like that -- a tacit admission that the data will suggest a policy they don't like -- are how you can tell their arguments are not made in good faith.
posted by Gelatin at 9:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [39 favorites]


I listened to part of the debate while driving to meet some friends, and the thing that struck me the most about Donald's final spiel was how he was trying to congratulate himself for not calling Hillary a bitch because she'd "said some mean things."

Xeni pointed this out a while back and it's stuck with me. This is the language of an abuser. A cocaine-addled, circus-peanut-looking, lying sack of shit abuser who would not be trusted to babysit a cashew.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [29 favorites]


No, being a conservative does not automatically make someone evil or racist or greedy. I know because I used to be quite conservative in my young-adulthood. And I can assure you I was none of those things.

No, I was conservative mainly because I believed, in good faith, some things that I later learned to be not true, such as "everyone in our society has essentially the same opportunity for financial success", and "success is primarily a result of effort (therefore lack of success comes from lack of effort)", and "privilege doesn't exist (my own, especially)".

I believed those things because I was taught to believe them. I eventually was exposed to clearer truths (thanks, Metafilter) and shifted leftward, politically. But my past conservatism was as rational and logical and well-meaning as my current socialism. The only thing that changed was my understanding of the underlying systems that govern our society.
posted by rocket88 at 9:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [74 favorites]


The deserving. Who just coincidentally look a lot like them.

Is there a reason some mefites always take the least charitable view possible on Corb's descriptions of Republicans?

My description was of Republicans, too.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:57 AM on September 27, 2016


In a 2016 election thread, it seems like a waste of time to accept at face value a political worldview that requires people to be far better than they actually are in order for it to function

It's a waste of time to argue the point when someone was just describing the mindset.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


All I could think when he brought up airports was When was the last time you spent an hour in an airport, Donald? The 1970s?
posted by Etrigan at 9:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary's also been married to Bill Clinton for over 40 years, so I'm gonna bet she's had more than just professional practice at talking over a dude who likes to hear himself speak.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [76 favorites]


To be fair LaGuardia is a terrible place, I mean it's not the Lagos airport but it's pretty bad. Also Trump is cribbing this line from a more talented pol.
posted by dis_integration at 9:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wow. I've never before, not even in any of the other election threads, hit my daily favorite limit. Today is a good day.
posted by Gelatin at 10:00 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I personally love LaGuardia. So much faster to get to from upper Manhattan, usually no lines at security, when you arrive you can walk right out and get a cab no problem. Fine, it's not pretty and whatever, but it's a very useful and convenient airport IMO.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Chuck Tingle and the Buckaroo Party have the information you need about last night’s debate at TrumpDebateFacts.com
posted by Going To Maine at 10:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


I was conservative mainly because I believed, in good faith, some things that I later learned to be not true, such as "everyone in our society has essentially the same opportunity for financial success", and "success is primarily a result of effort (therefore lack of success comes from lack of effort)", and "privilege doesn't exist (my own, especially)"..... I eventually was exposed to clearer truths (thanks, Metafilter) and shifted leftward, politically.

Are you me?
posted by tclark at 10:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Thanks for bringing up the airport / book reference. I forgot I wanted to buy it today.
posted by miguelcervantes at 10:02 AM on September 27, 2016


All I could think when he brought up airports was When was the last time you spent an hour in an airport, Donald? The 1970s?

If that's the case, LaGuardia was blown up in 1975. So maybe that's what he's thinking of.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


And then Trump dug himself into a hole with his whole "I have the better temperament" schtick. Why did he even go there? It's hilarious.

Even the raw transcript of that exchange is just brutal:
HOLT: Why is your judgment — why is your judgment any different than Mrs. Clinton’s judgment?

TRUMP: Well, I have much better judgment than she does. There’s no question about that. I also have a much better temperament than she has, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

I have a much better — she spent — let me tell you — she spent hundreds of millions of dollars on an advertising — you know, they get Madison Avenue into a room, they put names — oh, temperament, let’s go after — I think my strongest asset, maybe by far, is my temperament. I have a winning temperament. I know how to win. She does not have a...

HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

TRUMP: Wait. The AFL-CIO the other day, behind the blue screen, I don’t know who you were talking to, Secretary Clinton, but you were totally out of control. I said, there’s a person with a temperament that’s got a problem.

HOLT: Secretary Clinton?

CLINTON: Whew, OK.

(LAUGHTER)
(PSA: if anyone skipped watching it live last night because of anxiety or election fatigue or whatever, I urge you to watch it today, if you can stand it. The soundbites and hot takes really don't get across how much of an absurd contrast it was, how Trump's Very Serious Voice lasted all of eight minutes, how calmly Clinton spoke over his constant attempts at interruption, how pathetic and vain he sounded talking about his hotel and income and Rosie O'Donnell..)
posted by theodolite at 10:03 AM on September 27, 2016 [43 favorites]


There's another inconvenient truth about the safety net vs. increased charitable giving thing that revolves around people being able to make informed decisions. Even most die hard free market believers will acknowledge that for a market to function properly, all participants need a roughly equal level of information.

With a government bureaucracy, however large and inefficient, the public's expectation of full information can be encoded in the statutes that govern the bureaucracy. With a vast populace simply giving to whom they want based on their own whims, no such assessment can be made with any sort of confidence. Those who fall through the cracks in our current system can have their voice heard through the political process, and the agencies and individuals overseeing them can be held responsible. But if your bake sale doesn't raise enough money for a neighbor's chemotherapy, how does that need get communicated outside of your immediate social circle, and how does that request get weighed against other needs, especially given peoples' whims about who is "deserving"?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:06 AM on September 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


I would love to see a "debate training montage" like from the 80's.

♫ it's the eye of the tiger, it's the thrill of the fight

Clinton is soaking through her pantsuit, grimacing into the camera as she speaks at a lectern while a man in orange bodypaint yells into her ear through a megaphone. The clock behind her counts up from 87 minutes.

♫ rising up to the challenge of our rival

Trump chugs another 5-hour Energy while furiously tapping out a tweet on the shitter.

♫ and the last known survivor stalks his prey in the night

Clinton squints at a flashcard reading "Unemployment rate in Gary, Indiana", she shouts the answer, the card is flipped to the floor. It lands on a passed-out man in a polo shirt. The camera pans out; the stack of cards is 4 feet tall and the floor is covered in a sea of white paper.

♫ and he's watching us all with the eye of the tiger

Trump applies a final spritz of AquaNet to his hair while standing at a vanity. Three men behind him shake their heads in disapproval. He furiously towels his head until a wispy four-foot long mane falls down his back. An aide hands him a new gold-plated comb and he tries again.
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:06 AM on September 27, 2016 [77 favorites]


Big Cocaine is now actively distancing itself from Donald Trump. [false]
posted by srboisvert at 10:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


how pathetic and vain he sounded talking about his hotel and income and Rosie O'Donnell..)

And Sidney Blumenthal!
HOLT: Mr. Trump, for five years, you perpetuated a false claim that the nation’s first black president was not a natural-born citizen. You questioned his legitimacy. In the last couple of weeks, you acknowledged what most Americans have accepted for years: The president was born in the United States. Can you tell us what took you so long?

TRUMP: I’ll tell you very — well, just very simple to say. Sidney Blumenthal works for the campaign and close — very close friend of Secretary Clinton. And her campaign manager, Patti Doyle, went to — during the campaign, her campaign against President Obama, fought very hard. And you can go look it up, and you can check it out. TRUMP: And if you look at CNN this past week, Patti Solis Doyle was on Wolf Blitzer saying that this happened. Blumenthal sent McClatchy, highly respected reporter at McClatchy, to Kenya to find out about it. They were pressing it very hard. She failed to get the birth certificate.

When I got involved, I didn’t fail. I got him to give the birth certificate. So I’m satisfied with it. And I’ll tell you why I’m satisfied with it.

HOLT: That was...

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Because I want to get on to defeating ISIS, because I want to get on to creating jobs, because I want to get on to having a strong border, because I want to get on to things that are very important to me and that are very important to the country.

HOLT: I will let you respond. It’s important. But I just want to get the answer here. The birth certificate was produced in 2011. You’ve continued to tell the story and question the president’s legitimacy in 2012, ’13, ’14, ’15...

TRUMP: Yeah.

HOLT: .... as recently as January. So the question is, what changed your mind?

TRUMP: Well, nobody was pressing it, nobody was caring much about it. I figured you’d ask the question tonight, of course. But nobody was caring much about it. But I was the one that got him to produce the birth certificate. And I think I did a good job.

Secretary Clinton also fought it. I mean, you know — now, everybody in mainstream is going to say, oh, that’s not true. Look, it’s true. Sidney Blumenthal sent a reporter — you just have to take a look at CNN, the last week, the interview with your former campaign manager. And she was involved. But just like she can’t bring back jobs, she can’t produce.

HOLT: I’m sorry. I’m just going to follow up — and I will let you respond to that, because there’s a lot there. But we’re talking about racial healing in this segment. What do you say to Americans, people of color who...

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Well, it was very — I say nothing. I say nothing, because I was able to get him to produce it. He should have produced it a long time before. I say nothing.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hillary's also been married to Bill Clinton for over 40 years, so I'm gonna bet she's had more than just professional practice at talking over a dude who likes to hear himself speak.

Trufe. But at least Bill can speak in complete sentences, is able to string together a reasonable, propositional argument with those sentences, and has a respect for the truth. And once he's done (which can take a while), he also listens.

Bill Clinton is a great speaker; Trump is just a shit-talker.
posted by Chrischris at 10:12 AM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


> I say nothing. I say nothing, because I was able to get him to produce it. He should have produced it a long time before. I say nothing.

Yeah, this was the moment where it hit me - this was an obviously telegraphed question, everyone knew it was coming, and he had *literally* no answer. Wow. I still can't wrap my brain around the fact that the entire Republican primary field vomited up this - this cretin - as a nominee.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:13 AM on September 27, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think it is great Hillary carried her side of the debate, and did not sink into Trump's murky strata. She came out clean. It is important she remains herself and shows us what a great world leader must consist of. She was not necessarily a master baiter, but her opponent apparently thought his eyes-lowered poses would make him seem wise. I wonder if he was actually coached to mimic the death of Roy in Blade Runner? You have to wonder how subtly he has been coached? Then, one wonders if he can hold on to information that doesn't come out of his own head long enough to use it, or perform as he needs to, for the US to stay in existence, should the horrific happen?
posted by Oyéah at 10:16 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there an AFL-CIO word salad explainer?
posted by xyzzy at 10:18 AM on September 27, 2016


So, while there's still lots to dissect from last night, who else is starting to worry about the next one? Town hall format, public input on the questions, this could be rough for both sides.
posted by nubs at 10:20 AM on September 27, 2016


I still can't wrap my brain around the fact that the entire Republican primary field vomited up this - this cretin - as a nominee.

Remember, he didn't manage to get a majority of primary voters, even with a long period as the presumptive nominee.

Primaries seem ripe for experimenting with something beside FPP voting.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:21 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump's Most Inspiring Quotes From the First Debate

a decent buzzfeed listicle that's only missing my favorite, which was an interjected "NOT!"
posted by burgerrr at 10:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


Prachi Gupta (the cosmo writer who had that call w Ivanka re the mat leave proposal) apparently sat down with Alicia Machado for lunch last week.

It's pretty clear that the Clinton camp had her speak to the press with that ending in mind, either embargoed or perhaps more likely soft-scheduled -- "oh, we're doing Latinx events with her, she's available for interviews" -- but completely sprung the delivery on Trump. Top preparation: reduces the space for hastily-written "who is this person?" 'splainers with the potential for character assassination from the Trump camp.
posted by holgate at 10:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mod note: A few deleted; probably better to bypass the NYC airport commute discussion in a long thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Through the course of the entire lead up to the debate, I have noted, the Republican Party has no candidate for this presidential election. Yet they do not seem concerned about that. What have they planned? It is a question everyone should ask.
posted by Oyéah at 10:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I really want a Jewish president in 2024. Because after the black president and the woman president, I think it should be the last thing we need to make bigots everywhere self-immolate.


If you really want self-immolation, try Laverne Cox/Janet Mock 2024
posted by AFABulous at 10:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


More than 80 million people viewed Monday's Clinton-Trump debate, making it the most-watched debate ever.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Port side, Greg, port side. And I'll say it again, even his hair is a lie.
posted by valkane at 10:29 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


the VP debate is likely to be the one where the differences between Republican and Democratic policy get highlighted. Any conversation involving Trump ends up about Trump and whatever Trump thinks this week, while Pence is the mouthpiece for post-Tea-Party Republican governance.

There are still going to be quite a few weird "well, you'll have to take that up with the Trump campaign" moments from Pence, along with a few more "what Donald Trump believes..." followed by something contradicted by what Trump said the day before and will say the day after.
posted by holgate at 10:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lower case trump is not a real candidate. He has done everything but kill the last black rhino, to prove it.
posted by Oyéah at 10:31 AM on September 27, 2016


If you really want self-immolation, try Laverne Cox/Janet Mock 2024

Why not Snow/Plowright then?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:31 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


as if 'donald trump' was not an obvious pynchon character name, get real greg
posted by beerperson at 10:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Frowner: The thing about the noblesse oblige argument is that we've already seen it in action.

Which I really hope to see from Kaine against Pence. As a native Hoosier, I hope that my home state's "religious liberty" law, exploding AIDS epidemic, and weak governance get hammered as a bellwether for unchecked Republican federal policy. And while Trump can squirm, deflect, personalize, and bluster his way around any question, I doubt that Pence will.

"Elections have consequences" is a point that should be at stake here. And I think Trump and the mass media tendency for false equivalence obfuscate that.

Jalliah: I think Clinton purposely primed him to have the word 'airport' on his brain.

Neuro-linguistic programming?
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


They all endorsed him.

Frankly after the last 8 years of garbage the Republicans don't deserve a better candidate than Trump, so I'm not interested in hearing any crying about it.
posted by Artw at 10:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [31 favorites]


I knew that shoulder wiggle looked familiar
posted by numaner at 10:36 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]




It is interesting that during a presidential election we've got RADIO SILENCE from all the usual republican suspects. What has RYAN or MCCONNELL have to say about the debate? Am I just deaf? Or are they just lying low until the TrumpStorm passes?
posted by valkane at 10:39 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


the Republican Party has no candidate for this presidential election.

They all endorsed him.


They didn't just endorse him, they fed the conditions that led to his rise by cynically proclaiming Obama's normal center-left governance to be worthy of self-immolation and insurrection to prevent. They fed the fear and resentment for 8 years, and own the consequences. Trump is the Republican candidate, because he best represents the Republican party's id, ideology and policy proposals. Republicans made Trump, they are Trump, they don't get to ever live it down or pretend otherwise.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:41 AM on September 27, 2016 [85 favorites]


It is interesting that during a presidential election we've got RADIO SILENCE from all the usual republican suspects.

Besides Goering and Goebbels, I mean Christie and Guiliani, he really has no surrogates.
posted by chris24 at 10:41 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


The OED says braggadocious is a real word.

So now we need to add another debate, a DICTIONARY debate, MW vs OED.
posted by chapps at 10:41 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I called my mom after the debate because I was just so excited and relieved that Clinton had threaded the needle and done everything as perfectly as a human being can be expected to do and I knew I wouldn't be able to sleep for awhile. We usually agree but often for different reasons. For her, the takeaway was at the end when Clinton and Bill came out and engaged with the audience and shook hands while the Trumps just hightailed it off stage. She thought it showed that Clinton is a good politician. I agree with that, but I also just think that both Hillary and Bill just genuinely like people. And the more I see of Clinton, the more that comes through for me. She's so relaxed and that she manages to laugh and actually at times be joyful gives me hope.
posted by betsybetsy at 10:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


My dream line on Trump's taxes: "You know, President Reagan was fond of the philosophy of 'trust, but verify,' which is something I took to heart in my work as Secretary of State. Donald, you want us to trust you about your business dealings, about your loans and debt and what countries you owe money to, about your wealth and that you pay your fair share of taxes. Well I think the American people should be able to verify what we say here on stage tonight. Will you do President Reagan proud and release your tax returns?"
posted by zachlipton at 10:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


So, while there's still lots to dissect from last night, who else is starting to worry about the next one? Town hall format, public input on the questions, this could be rough for both sides.

Really? Because HRC will kill it too hard?
posted by filthy light thief at 10:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


LIVE Stream: Hillary Clinton Rally in Raleigh, NC (9/27/2016) Post Donald Trump Debate

Two thoughts:

1) She's talking about HB2 and voter suppression in NC which makes me really happy

2) Who the fuck decided to give YouTube chat?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


HRC live: possibly the biggest voter turn-out, lots of early voting, great turn-out for black, latino and youth voters. (!!)
posted by filthy light thief at 10:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh man, Hillary's opening in Raleigh was so awesome. She came out like a rock star and the roar was deafening and she's just basking in the glow.

The crowd is going bonkers over her. It's Darryl Dawkins language worthy. Teenagers cheering, crowd cheering, teens cryin, mothers cryin, babies cryin, Hillary Thunder takin em under.
posted by cashman at 10:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [51 favorites]


I LOVE SEEING HAPPY HILLARY! Thanks for the live stream, CHT.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


this was not about switching Trump voters to Hillary voters, It's about convincing Republican voters who are hesitant about Trump to just stay home, or just skip the presidential part of the ballot.

I think it was even more important to get Bernie supporters and other reluctant liberals more motivated and likely to turn out. Based on the lefty, sarcastic crowd I was in (at a Hecklevision event in Portland OR), she kicked ass.

I was especially impressed by her answer on institutional racism, direct and to the point but not likely to drive away a ton of white voters. She'll lose some, but the rakishly inclined are Trump's base anyway.
posted by msalt at 10:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


> The OED says braggadocious is a real word.

I think we can all be in agreeance about that.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hillary/Shaq wiggle is pretty awesome but also needs the kitten wiggle to be maximum meme effect
posted by vuron at 10:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Jalliah: I think Clinton purposely primed him to have the word 'airport' on his brain.
o
Neuro-linguistic programming?


I dunno is that's what it's called. I just know from experience that it and similar tactics can work. Back in my Uni days I was involved at both the provincial and national level of student politics and accidentally discovered one meeting how it can work. Then over the next couple of years we refined and experimented and in several cases used things like this to get some policy passed that was opposed by the controlling faction. They eventually caught on and it became more difficult but it was a good lesson on how people think. Also good in order to defend against.

For it to really work though it's the other party has to think that they're way smarter (and better) then the other. Trump is this plus he's just really easy to manipulate in some ways because of his specific character flaws. The more arrogant and elitist a person is the easier it can be in my experience.
posted by Jalliah at 10:45 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


The OED says braggadocious is a real word.

Then Trump is supercalifragalisticexpibraggadocious.
posted by Gelatin at 10:46 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Am I crazy or is she just totally relaxed and easy in this speech? I think her speeches since the convention have generally been good but this feels more at ease, more conversational. I like it.
posted by Tevin at 10:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]




Braggadocious is absolutely a word. I was surprised that people were making fun of him last night for that. There are so many other things to make fun of.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


And someone already beat me to it.

Shaq/Kitten/Hillary Meme Magic
posted by vuron at 10:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Taliban Watches Clinton, Trump Debate from Secret Afghanistan Location [real]:
Taliban leaders tuned into Monday night's debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump from a secret location in Afghanistan, a spokesman for the militant group told NBC News.

"We were very interested in watching," said Zabihullah Mujahid.

The spokesman added that "Trump ... [says] anything that comes to his tongue" and branded the Republican candidate as "non-serious."

He said the militant group's leadership had hoped that Afghanistan would feature more prominently in the discussion.

"There nothing of interest to us in the debate as both of them said little about Afghanistan and their future plans for the country," he said.
posted by zachlipton at 10:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


I was feeling impressed with Cosmopolitan for their Ivanka interview and the interview with Alicia Machado until I got to this part:

“Sometimes I didn’t want to go out anywhere,” she told me over lunch of minestrone soup, chicken and broccoli, and a Diet Coke at an Italian restaurant, saying she slimmed down to a size 2 (Machado is now a size 6).

Um, maybe don't criticize Trump for focusing on her weight and then focus on her diet and dress size. I mean, I know it's Cosmo, but they had recently raised my expectations of them slightly so I am disappointed.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 10:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


And speaking of great surrogate Giuliani:

Giuliani: Clinton 'too stupid to be president' for not leaving Bill.
posted by chris24 at 10:50 AM on September 27, 2016


I'm putting the Shaq/Hillary gif on a permanent background screen. It genuinely makes me giggle.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:51 AM on September 27, 2016


Hillary/Shaq wiggle is pretty awesome but also needs the kitten wiggle to be maximum meme effect

Well, then I would watch it all day, rather than just the 20 times I already have.

Watching the debate last night in my neighborhood gay bar, I was initially filled with trepidation because I've been burnt by too many accidental Log Cabin interactions, but I had nothing to fear. At the beginning, more than a few people looked sick with worry. (I also learned I'm not the only gay dude in the neighborhood who has been driven back to smoking by 2016.) And as the night unfolded, everyone cheered, clapped, and booed like the Bears were on TV and it was glorious was honestly one of the few times in my life where I felt like there was such a thing as a gay community that I was a part of. Crisis is weird.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:53 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


HRC live: Mark Cuban, who is a real billionaire, by the way *cheers, laughter* already supports profit sharing ....
posted by filthy light thief at 10:53 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hill: So, Mark Cuban, who is a real billionaire by the way...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:53 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


To describe why she started doing early work with helping children, Hillary is sharing stories about how her mom grew up in poverty. Her mom was on her own at age 14, living off working as a maid, doing house duties for others, showing up to school with no food, unlike the other kids.

I'm about to cry. Can we please get this person elected president please? She is what is great about America.
posted by cashman at 10:54 AM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


And as the night unfolded, everyone cheered, clapped, and booed like the Bears were on TV

I think Hillary did a lot better than that.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:54 AM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Don't fret, Donald. Vladimir Putin thinks you won the debate:
Trump Won Putin’s Focus Group: Judging from Russia’s state-sponsored Twitter coverage of the presidential debate, the Kremlin is anything but a swing state

— Julia Ioffe, Foreign Policy
posted by octobersurprise at 10:54 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Regarding record number of debate viewers:

Nielsen data confirms that viewership stayed high the entire time. Contrary to some speculation, there was not a big drop-off after the first hour of the 98-minute debate.

So not a lot of people who just saw the "good" 20 minutes and not the collapse.
posted by chris24 at 10:55 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]




In Wisconsin, people can already start voting for president.
posted by drezdn at 10:55 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Are we talking current day Bears or '85 Ditka Bears because honestly comparing last night to a Bears match is pretty down on Hillary.

Unless you are calling Trump the Bears...
posted by vuron at 10:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


One of the little soundbites that I really appreciated hearing from Hillary last night was, "We've got to address the systemic racism in our criminal justice system." I love the fact that she is willing to get up on stage and reference systemic racism in a way that leaves no room for argument about whether systemic racism exists or whether it is present in American criminal justice. It's a real thing, it's a real problem, and she was able to own that in front of a national audience and make it a selling point for her candidacy.

We should be well past the point where the existence of systemic racism should be a given in mainstream discourse, but we all know that we're a long way from that. Hillary herself wasn't there this time last year; remember her "All Lives Matter" gaffe? That she has been able to come around on this issue to the point where she's willing to use it as an unarguable premise in a debate speaks volumes to me about the kind of leader that she will be.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [36 favorites]


HRC: Trump goes around complaining about the military and our institutions, but he probably hasn't paid much federal taxes to support schools, vets and [something]. And Trump says that makes him smart. What does that make us?
posted by filthy light thief at 11:00 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


“America has a sane, reasonable conservative party to act as a check on the potential excesses of the left. It's called the Democratic Party.”
:-)
"The worship of jackals by jackasses."

America has a sane, reasonable conservative party to act as a check on the potential excesses of the citizenry. It’s called the two party system.

If anyone has a time machine, go back and save Beau Biden, willya?

The term “conservative” and “liberal” have been co-opted and retconned so many times they’re essentially meaningless terms, particularly as they’re used with respect to Democrat and Republican.

Consider – one candidate repudiated Obama as “soft on crime” and his criticism of mandatory minimum sentencing as too liberal and out of touch and believes in stiffer sentences and capital punishment and the augmentation of the terror no-fly list and has been pushing, contrary to Obama’s slow decriminalization, for an increase in the drug war.
The other candidate is Donald Trump.

Don’t misunderstand me, I strongly disagree with many of H. Clinton’s policies and I think she’s totally wrong about a lot of things. But she’s merely wrong.
Trump is not even wrong
I can at least respectfully disagree with Clinton's positions.

Trump - he’s not conservative or anything. There are no values there. There’s no term to use for his position other than “Trump.”
And watching the debates, that’s manifestly obvious.

How often did he say – anything – concrete? The only actual details, the only thing that had any meat to it was his shameless self-promotion.
The only fact I caught was that he’s opening a new $212 million hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue in the nation’s capital.
And even that was bullshit because it was a “soft opening” and he’s suing the D.C. to get his taxes lowered. I mean - wha? The degree to which he could not care is astonishing.
At best it’s a masquerade. I’m offended that it’s such a cheap one.

But let’s not pretend there’s anything like genuine philosophy, beyond: “whatever it takes to get elected”, involved in modern politics.
Everyone is looking to make money off the circus. Trump gets publicity. H. Clinton gets her legacy. The press gets a show. And people get to argue over their favorite color.
Yes there's a difference but only because of the magnitudes involved as Updike would put it ("Government is either organized benevolence or organized madness; its peculiar magnitude permits no shading." - Updike)

To be fair, Clinton does bend to the will of the people in a progressive way. Which I support (Teddy Roosevelt another of my heroes) but that’s the problem isn’t it? The people and the shoddy feedback system we have? Romans had the same deal.

Everyone makes political trade-offs with their espoused ideology to get elected (I think it was Stevenson who said whoever runs for president, disqualifies themselves for the job. Or Douglas Adams)
We can’t elect Bernie because Trump might get in. It was the same deal with Obama (albeit an exception) and Jesse Jackson and every other “unelectable” candidate. And the same deal with Bill Clinton and his crime bill – gotta put a generation of people in prison, otherwise might not get elected. Sure we all decry it later, but the damage has been done. Truman aided the red scare. Obama blew the hell out of parts of Pakistan. Gotta, otherwise ya might not get re-elected.

So everyone swallows the bitter pill with some sugar.
And yet nowhere is the “look behind the curtain” philosophy. The will to change the system to something better rather than just swapping out the players. That’s how progressivism started. Conservativism has always been critical of radical changes for risking unintended consequences (like being locked in an unresponsive system) and liberalism – well, hell, it’s right there in the name “"free from narrow prejudice.”

So yeah, the problem with Trump is he’s not a conservative, but in this system no one is allowed to be.
Clinton certainly isn’t a liberal but she does have a value system. And I think she’s wrong about some things, but, unlike Trump, she’s wrong within acceptable parameters.

But no one is asking if the trouble isn’t with our parameters in the first place. Especially since we’re only allowed to agree or disagree within that framework.

And this debate was a perfect representation of that problem in the U.S.

Clinton arguing for reform in a system in which she’s been entrenched for 30 years.

Trump saying “I’m building a new beautiful hotel” and devolving into vagaries.

And the press pretending there's something actually going on there in some context.

The Asimov quote from the "wrong" link says it better:
"When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
posted by Smedleyman at 11:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


Am I crazy or is she just totally relaxed and easy in this speech? I think her speeches since the convention have generally been good but this feels more at ease, more conversational. I like it.

Oh yes, and the room is loose and up for it as well. And NC seems to be a state where she's happy to campaign, perhaps because it's a purple state turning bluer.

She's definitely -in' as much as possible.
posted by holgate at 11:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I mean, some people have heard of Blumenthal, but when the only person he attacked by name last night was Jewish, and his Twitter mob regularly attacks people for being Jewish, it kind of sure sounds like he's doing it on purpose.

He also brought up Debbie Wasserman Schultz:
"We learned that Bernie Sanders was taken advantage of by your people, by Debbie Wasserman Schultz," Trump says. "Look what happened to her."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:01 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Giuliani: Clinton 'too stupid to be president' for not leaving Bill.

To recap, while Giuliani was Mayor, he had affairs with his aide Cristyne Lategano, and with Judith Nathan, who is now his wife. His then-wife, Donna Hanover, stayed with him despite his infidelity. Wikipedia has more:
On the evening after announcing his cancer diagnosis, reporters observed Rudy Giuliani having "a romantic dinner" with Judith Nathan, the woman who would be identified as his lover. Just one more week later, Giuliani announced that he and Hanover were officially separated at a press conference on May 10. Giuliani had neglected to tell Hanover either of his decision or of the press conference and moments later, with cameras taping her reaction, reporters at her residence apparently shocked her with this info and she was visibly distraught by the unexpected news.

Giuliani filed for divorce in October 2000. Hanover and Giuliani stopped cohabiting at the end of his term in December 2001. Hanover counter filed in June 2002. After ugly public battles between representatives of the two, the divorce was finalized in July 2002 after he left office as Mayor; Hanover was awarded $6.8 million and custody of their two children.
He's a religious Catholic. I wonder if he believes in Hell.
posted by zarq at 11:04 AM on September 27, 2016 [44 favorites]


Great googly moogly, but that ad starring Alicia Machado is harsh. And it includes footage of Trump talking about her weight and bringing the media to film her working out. No wonder Trump doubled down on his criticisms of her -- it seems eve pretending not to hold her in contempt is too much for him.

And once again, Team Clinton had that ad all ready to go for when she baited him into leaving himself vulnerable to its message. Impressive.
posted by Gelatin at 11:04 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


Through the course of the entire lead up to the debate, I have noted, the Republican Party has no candidate for this presidential election. Yet they do not seem concerned about that. What have they planned? It is a question everyone should ask.

I think this is like a sexual selection paradox like Fisherian Runaway where in order to prove fitness candidates must display massively unfit traits or behaviours. The current internal selection pressures in the republican party pretty much insure that candidates have to be absurdly venal, over the top mendacious and ridiculously out of touch with just about everything and successful governance in particular. Then when it comes to their actual survival post selection they all have giant bulls-eyes painted all over them and are genuinely puzzled by all the accurate hits they keep taking.
posted by srboisvert at 11:05 AM on September 27, 2016 [31 favorites]


"We've got to address the systemic racism in our criminal justice system."

Yes. And I thought her response to Holt's question basically asking if she thought cops were racist was great. Answered it without falling into a trap that Rs would've never shut up about.

HOLT: Secretary Clinton, last week, you said we’ve got to do everything possible to improve policing, to go right at implicit bias. Do you believe that police are implicitly biased against black people?

CLINTON: Lester, I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police. I think, unfortunately, too many of us in our great country jump to conclusions about each other. And therefore, I think we need all of us to be asking hard questions about, you know, why am I feeling this way?
posted by chris24 at 11:06 AM on September 27, 2016 [38 favorites]


Great googly moogly, but that Clinton ad starring Alicia Machado is harsh.

Damn. That's worse that I imagined it to be, even knowing exactly what happened.

Also, of course he didn't pay her. What else did I expect?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Today is #NationalVoterRegistrationDay - I was beaten, left bloody & unconscious so that every person could register and vote. Do your part. --@repjohnlewis

Register to vote. Already registered? Take two minutes and check your registration right now. Want to vote by mail and you're in a state where you can do that? This is a perfect time to take two minutes and order up your absentee ballot. In an early voting state? Consider voting right now if you can. Do it for National Treasure Rep. John Lewis.

(sorry chris24, didn't see you posted this too.)
posted by zachlipton at 11:07 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


Some admiring post-debate analysis by Josh Marshall:
By 30 minutes in, she was dominating the debate. Sure, he attacked here and there. He was louder. He interrupted more. But he was always responding to her. She had him on the ropes. She was setting the tone and the terms. And the fact that he could feel it made him angrier, more impulsive and more unable to sustain any kind of consistent message that would help him in political terms.

This is getting lost with some people. Sure he was bad. But she was at least as good as he was bad. And the quality of her performance made him much worse.

I agree.
posted by Gelatin at 11:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [35 favorites]


Trump represents a grand travesty to practically every single supposedly inviolable conservative principle, and yet his support among conservatives has been quite solid. This points to the fundamental truth of the GOP: for the majority of conservatives, none of the things they hold up as their core principles actually matter.

Yeah, sure, but... principled conservatives are in a tough bind this year, and honestly a lot of the commentariat and not-current-officeholders have been doing at least a decent job of denying Trump their support. The folks holding elective office less so, but there has been a steady stream of conservative and Republican writers talking about how terrible Trump is and there really have been a number of high-powered GOP actors and allies who, last I checked, really have refused to send Trump their money or otherwise work for his candidacy.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:08 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


The implicit bias answer was my my fuck yeah, it's on and she's going to mop the floor with him moment.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


HRC @ Raliegh, NC: "We don't want to build walls, we want to build bridges."
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:10 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton: 37:31
Trump: 42:06
Trump : Clinton time usage ratio after 90 mins: 1.122


I think all the times when Trump was just blathering word salad and she was beaming sweet yet deadly smiles at the camera from her split screen half, should really be counted as her time. Technically he was making sounds trying to "talk good", to use his own expression, but it was really all to her benefit.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 11:14 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump's African-American outreach continues to be stellar:
TRUMP: [word salad about Obam's birth certificate]

HOLT: I'm sorry. I'm just going to follow up -- and I will let you respond to that, because there's a lot there. But we're talking about racial healing in this segment. What do you say to Americans, people of color who...

TRUMP: Well, it was very -- I say nothing. I say nothing, because I was able to get him to produce it. He should have produced it a long time before. I say nothing.
posted by zakur at 11:15 AM on September 27, 2016 [29 favorites]


I was thinking about the thing about the CBS poll, and this is one of the things I think isn't really lying, but the problem is, if it's not lying, it's worse. Someone has told him about some poll, somewhere, that showed him leading. It's not like those don't exist, on the internet. But he's not listening to that person when they're talking. They're getting, like, 25% of his attention. He heard something about a poll that his brain filled in as being CBS. Which it wasn't. But he's so inattentive to the details that he doesn't care that he doesn't know, he just says the first thing he thinks it might have been. I'd rather he was lying. Lawful evil is easier to thwart than chaotic evil.
posted by Sequence at 11:16 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


America has a sane, reasonable conservative party to act as a check on the potential excesses of the left. It's called the Democratic Party

I didn't say the excesses of the left; I said the excesses of the Democratic Party.

Hillary Clinton last night explicitly proposed raising taxes on the wealthy, increasing the minimum wage and expanding access to health care. To the Republican Party that Donald Trump represents so fittingly, all of those policies are anathema and have been for decades

I've said before that Bernie Sanders did the nation a huge service by putting topics like income inequality on the national agenda where they rightfully belong. And I'd love it if younger voters participated more in the political process, unglamorous as that may be, and in doing so kept issues of interest to them on the national agenda.

Yet my point remains -- in a two-party, winner-take-all system based on checks and balances, the Democratic Party needs a sane and rational counterweight on the right as well. By abrogating that duty in the name of cargo cult conservatism, the Republican Party is failing the nation almost as badly as when it gets the chance to enact its lunatic agenda.
posted by Gelatin at 11:16 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Yet another debate where everyone ignores solvency, harms, inherency, topicality and significance. (I'll know my people by their favorites)
posted by drezdn at 11:17 AM on September 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


Yes, when she deftly sidestepped Lester Holt's trap re: implicit bias in the police by saying "Lester, I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police." I remember murmuring (through the peaty, salt-spray-inflected haze of Laphroaig that had by then comfortably swaddled my brain) "That was an excellent response." I was impressed. That exchange was her best moment in the debate, for me. That was the moment when I felt a real pride to be able to vote for her in November.

I have a lot of problems with Clinton's positions on a whole host of issues, but right there I felt like she really got it, at least for a moment. Whatever else a Clinton presidency would mean, at least we would have someone intelligent and thoughtful in office, someone capable of seeing nuance and complexity, someone who was willing to listen and maybe even change her mind in the face of persuasive argument. That's the Hillary Clinton I want to vote for, and that's the kind of president that I hope she'll be. At her best, she's really very good.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:18 AM on September 27, 2016 [62 favorites]


Thanks Amanda Marcotte,

Donald Trump is every woman’s workplace nightmare: Debate with Hillary Clinton was a crash course in everyday sexism

Most voters are women, a fact that only becomes more true every election cycle. Under the circumstances, one would think that the man running for president and his male supporters would be diligent in their efforts to not remind the female voter of every sexist boss, condescending ex-boyfriend and street-harassing chump she’s ever encountered.

This is what women have to put up with if they believe they have just as much of a right as a man does to be in public, to be ambitious and seek power. And then they have to put up with men scoffing at them and telling them they’re imagining how hostile the world is to a woman who truly thinks she is equal. Monday night, however, exposed the ugly truth: Women are not making this up, sexism is real and a lot of men are the worst. And hopefully they will be shown the door come November.
posted by Jalliah at 11:18 AM on September 27, 2016 [46 favorites]


#TrumpWon now trending on Twitter, because of course it is. Who cares what actually happened any more? Just say whatever you want happened and poof, it did.

At least 3/4 of those tweets are ridiculing the notion of TrumpWon with gifs of eyes rolling, etc.
posted by msalt at 11:18 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hasn't it been kind of settled that he is not actually reaching out to Black voters but trying to convince moderates that they're not voting for a racist? Lots and lots of POC don't like Clinton at all, but only a very few are going to vote for Trump no matter what he says.
posted by AFABulous at 11:19 AM on September 27, 2016




LIVE Stream: Hillary Clinton Rally in Raleigh, NC (9/27/2016) Post Donald Trump Debate

Gosh, that entrance. There's a young woman to the right of Hillary with an "Estoy Contigo" sign that is losing it with tears of joy and it makes me so happy.

also yesterday I scored a pair of Hamilton tickets for next May and I just need to say it to someone and you guys are like the only ones I know who get how awesome that is
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 11:19 AM on September 27, 2016 [40 favorites]


Yet another debate where everyone ignores solvency, harms, inherency, topicality and significance. (I'll know my people by their favorites)

Sorry, I'm fresh out.
posted by Gelatin at 11:20 AM on September 27, 2016


There's a young woman to the right of Hillary with an "Estoy Contigo" sign that is losing it with tears of joy and it makes me so happy.

There's always one person in the background who catches your eye and Hispanic Leslie Knope was easily that person this time.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:22 AM on September 27, 2016


Serious question: does anyone know what the fuck the "blue screen" anecdote was about?

No, but same question about Trump's closing anecdote -- about 800 people who should have been deported but were granted citizenship instead, by accident or maybe "corruption" and now they're going to vote? I didn't even glean that much coherence until I watched the debate a second time.
posted by msalt at 11:23 AM on September 27, 2016


Pepe’s post-debate identity crisis: Online alt-right turns on Donald Trump after his presidential debate fiasco

Despite finding Donald Trump’s performance unsatisfactory, 4chan and Reddit users reportedly banded together to manipulate an estimated 70 online polls to make it seem as if the Republican presidential nominee had won the first presidential debate at Hofstra University on Monday.

.....
On Tuesday morning, however, the anonymous users awoke to a combination of debate hangover and identity crisis. The Daily Beast pinpointed the alt-right’s tidal shift to Trump’s suggestion that the Democratic National Committee hack might have been perpetrated by “someone sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds.”


Daily Beast : Donald Trump’s Online Trolls Turn on Their ‘God Emperor’

The alt-right diehards of 4chan, who’ve helped power the GOP nominee’s campaign with racist memes, were none too thrilled about his ‘400-pound’ hacker comment at the first debate. They still brigaded online polls in his name anyway.
posted by Jalliah at 11:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump conspiracy theorists apparently don't know what a battery pack/transceiver for a Lav mic looks like (a mic which you can clearly see Hillary wearing).
posted by drezdn at 11:23 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald Trump, a rich man, doesn't pay taxes.
Hillary Clinton, already doing her job as president, reassures the rest of the world that america is not gonna come for them.


I was going to vote for Clinton anyway, but that moment in the debate was the best thing I've seen from her. Donald's going nuts with his fever dream whacked-out foreign policy, and at the same time she is responding to him, she is also sending signals to the rest of the world. You could see her doing real-time diplomacy in the context of the debate, thinking through the political ramifications of this appearance and what messages she needed to send globally. More than any of her jabs at Trump or her masterful job pressing his buttons, that's what got my attention. She's continuing to do the diplomatic work that he will never be prepared to do.
HOLT: All right. Mrs. Clinton, Secretary Clinton, you have two minutes.

CLINTON: Well, let me -- let me start by saying, words matter. Words matter when you run for president. And they really matter when you are president. And I want to reassure our allies in Japan and South Korea and elsewhere that we have mutual defense treaties and we will honor them.

It is essential that America's word be good. And so I know that this campaign has caused some questioning and worries on the part of many leaders across the globe. I've talked with a number of them. But I want to -- on behalf of myself, and I think on behalf of a majority of the American people, say that, you know, our word is good.

It's also important that we look at the entire global situation. There's no doubt that we have other problems with Iran. But personally, I'd rather deal with the other problems having put that lid on their nuclear program than still to be facing that.

And Donald never tells you what he would do. Would he have started a war? Would he have bombed Iran? If he's going to criticize a deal that has been very successful in giving us access to Iranian facilities that we never had before, then he should tell us what his alternative would be. But it's like his plan to defeat ISIS. He says it's a secret plan, but the only secret is that he has no plan.

So we need to be more precise in how we talk about these issues. People around the word follow our presidential campaigns so closely, trying to get hints about what we will do. Can they rely on us? Are we going to lead the world with strength and in accordance with our values? That's what I intend to do. I intend to be a leader of our country that people can count on, both here at home and around the world, to make decisions that will further peace and prosperity, but also stand up to bullies, whether they're abroad or at home.

We cannot let those who would try to destabilize the world to interfere with American interests and security...

HOLT: Your two minutes is...

CLINTON: ... to be given any opportunities at all.

HOLT: ... is expired.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [82 favorites]


The Mary Sue: Last Night’s Debate the Most-Tweeted Ever, so Here Are Some of the Best Tweets

Has every presidential debate so far been the most tweeted one ever, simply given the trends in Twitter adoption?
posted by Going To Maine at 11:26 AM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


From that Mary Sue Twitter recap that CHT pointed out, Amanda Deibert: Trump: "I notice the nasty commercials you do on me." Her commercials are literally just clips of him speaking.

Ouch!
posted by Gelatin at 11:28 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


The only way Trump has ever been 'blue collar' is if said collars were carved of lapis lazuli.

Clinton spent a summer washing dishes at Mount McKinley and gutting fish.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:28 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


At least 3/4 of those tweets are ridiculing the notion of TrumpWon with gifs of eyes rolling, etc.

For almost a year now I've been posting funny mocking Trump gifs and pics on a sockpuppet twitter account with the tag #Trump2016, which has gained me followers from the white power movement, added to people's twitter lists titled "Republican" and "Conservative", and other such things which prove nobody actually looked at what I had posted -- when Trump's followers are more focused on presentation than action, #TrumpWon becomes true to them regardless of the context it was presented in.
posted by AzraelBrown at 11:29 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Has every presidential debate so far been the most tweeted one ever, simply given the trends in Twitter adoption?

Nixon/Kennedy underperformed.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:29 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]




Serious question: does anyone know what the fuck the "blue screen" anecdote was about?

I have a guess. Hillary rhetorically asked “Why aren’t I 50 points ahead?" last week, and the right-wing media blew up.

Video with context is here. It's not a blue screen, it's a blue background (and blue pantsuit), and it's the Laborers' International Union of North America, not the AFL-CIO.
posted by Leslie Knope at 11:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Speaking of anecdotal non sequiturs:
TRUMP: So we have to get very, very tough on cyber and cyber warfare. It is -- it is a huge problem. I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly doable.
posted by zakur at 11:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


My favourite conspiracy theory yet. From the Daily Beast article a few posts ago.

She drools!

Back on 4chan, conspiracy theories still prevailed. One user thought he noticed a dark spot on Clinton’s clothes.

“Why would you ever vote for a person who DROOLS on her own clothes?” the user wrote, circling the spot with Photoshop.

Other users responded quickly. “That’s a microphone shadow, ya dingus.”


Can't stop giggling at this one.
posted by Jalliah at 11:31 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Hillary Clinton last night explicitly proposed raising taxes on the wealthy, increasing the minimum wage and expanding access to health care. To the Republican Party that Donald Trump represents so fittingly, all of those policies are anathema and have been for decades

I think a lot in these conversations about my dad. He's a conservative guy. He votes Republican. He cares a lot about the debt, thinks the border should be more secure, dislikes illegal immigration because he hates law breaking, is anti-abortion, thinks being gay is a sin but mostly doesn't dwell on it. He's also active in helping people through his church, which regularly brings food to a bar that serves the nearby trailer park, and in local charities, tutoring students and the like. He would probably tell you that the minimum wage shouldn't be raised, but he recognizes that a guy he knows who's been working the same fast food job for eight years deserves to make more than he's making. He might believe that there's too many people on disability not working, but he's incredibly generous of his time and talents to the disabled people in his own life, both friends and family.

Make a Republican Party that's built around representing my dad and his values and I will never vote for it, but I would accept that they represent the sincere voices of people who get a say in our democracy. He hasn't abandoned the Republican Party at all, but he doesn't like Trump (in the primaries he liked Kasich but voted Cruz for anti-Trump reasons). As it stands, I have no idea who he's going to vote for, I'm afraid to ask, so I've focused on knocking down some specific Trump policies I think might appeal to him, mostly around immigration and border security, and emphasizing the debt impact of Trump's plans.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


No, but same question about Trump's closing anecdote -- about 800 people who should have been deported but were granted citizenship instead, by accident or maybe "corruption" and now they're going to vote? I didn't even glean that much coherence until I watched the debate a second time.

It was a weird closing anecdote. Fox News has the story. There were a bunch of immigrants who became citizens where there were questions about whether the names and birthdates they used all matched up because there were no fingerprints on file for them based on decades-old records and some people were ordered deported but eventually became citizens under other names. Some are inevitably clerical errors. Yeah, the fingerprint system should work better, but there's no remotely credible reason to believe this happened because of corruption or to influence the election as Trump claimed. Around 700,000 people become citizens every year.
posted by zachlipton at 11:34 AM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


msalt, I think I have a source for the 800 people who should've been deported. Per Politico:

"At least 858 people who had previously been ordered to be deported or removed from the U.S. were instead granted citizenship, the Department of Homeland Security’s inspector general announced Monday.

The mistaken citizenships were granted, the Department of Homeland Security explained in a press release, because neither its digital fingerprint repository nor the FBI’s fingerprint repository contain exhaustive records of individuals who have previously been deported."

Donald seems to have been right in a technical sense, if you discount the conspiratorial angle he tried to add. (And if this election hinges on 858 votes, this is not going to be a fun November.)
posted by Leslie Knope at 11:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


He votes Republican. He cares a lot about the debt...

Out of curiosity, did he care about the debt when Bush turned an all-time surplus into an all-time debt?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


Wait, so the 800 illegal citizens, the blue-screen rant, most of the other apparent non-sequiturs, all of those are references to stories with no circulation outside of the Fox News/Breitbart bubble?

He does realize he has to communicate with people outside his diehard core to win, right? At least when Hillary says, "go check my website" you may resent having to dig for the external knowledge but at least it's somewhere you can find. When Trump throws out these internal dogwhistles everyone not already in the tank for him thinks he's off the rails.

(while we're translating right-wingese into English, can anyone explain the "fighting ISIS all her adult life" bit?)
posted by jackbishop at 11:41 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's worth noting that "Trump was high on coke" makes logical sense in two ways.

One, it culturally fits with rich, New York, playboy-wanna-be 80's guy.

Second it easily fit Trump's Razor: what's the dumbest possible explanation for not just debate performance, but his whole bizarre candidacy? That he's stoned out of his goddamn gourd on cocaine. Always has been.
posted by generichuman at 11:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Exactly, Pater. That was the exact moment when I realized I had fallen in love with President Hillary. And I'm surprised that no one in the media hasn't made a big deal about it.
posted by valkane at 11:42 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


"The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough" amuses me to no end.

It reminds me of the scene in Billy Madison when Eric tries to answer a question about business ethics.
posted by diogenes at 11:43 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Out of curiosity, did he care about the debt when Bush turned an all-time surplus into an all-time debt?

Yep. It's been his number one issue as long as I can remember. He has a general sense that "no politician really cares about it" that means that he sees both sides as just as bad and, I think, votes a kind of default Republican position that comes from where he lives/tribal identity and his other values. I can't fully explain it, really.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


He does realize he has to communicate with people outside his diehard core to win, right?

Trump falls into one of the big mental errors of the internet era, he thinks the things he reads about/hears about constantly are interesting or important to the world at large.
posted by drezdn at 11:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


(while we're translating right-wingese into English, can anyone explain the "fighting ISIS all her adult life" bit?)

He has a trope that goes something like "she's been in government all these years yet bad things keep happening. She should be blamed for all of them." Here, she's blamed for the fact that ISIS exists. This trope is countered here in the transcript:
CLINTON: I have a feeling that by, the end of this evening, I’m going to be blamed for everything that’s ever happened.

TRUMP: Why not?

CLINTON: Why not? Yeah, why not?
posted by zachlipton at 11:45 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


"The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough" amuses me to no end.

Well, yeah, his skin IS made of adamantium. But his eyes are as gooey as the next guy's.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:45 AM on September 27, 2016


It reminds me of the scene in Billy Madison when Eric tries to answer a question about business ethics.

Or George W. Bush on tribal sovereignty.
posted by zakur at 11:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Shorter Trump: Do you even cyber?
posted by drezdn at 11:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The 400 pound hacker thing is so bizarre. He can't even stop himself from turning on his own supporters.
posted by corb at 11:47 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's kind of a deep cut but it's worth going back to this exchange (80:40 in the NYT video):
CLINTON: The other day, I saw Donald saying that there were some Iranian sailors on a ship in the waters off of Iran, and they were taunting American sailors who were on a nearby ship. He said, you know, if they taunted our sailors, I’d blow them out of the water and start another war. That’s not good judgment.

TRUMP: That would not start a war.

CLINTON: That is not the right temperament to be commander-in-chief, to be taunted. And the worst part...

TRUMP: No, they were taunting us.
That "no they were taunting us" is such a perfect gem of not paying attention, interrupting to mansplain, and missing the point entirely that I want to frame it and then bury it in the deepest darkest hole
posted by theodolite at 11:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [139 favorites]


Was just reading more detail on Trump's Rosie O'Donnell thing, which is now a minor thing again since he mentioned her last night. There's a few article floating around explaining the history.

He really can't let things go can he.

Fan-Fiction thought:

Rosie O'Donnell should be one of the people asking a question at the next town hall debate.
I would pay money to see this happen.
posted by Jalliah at 11:49 AM on September 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


I am going to suggest that just because a bunch of people believe in something doesn't mean that that thing is necessarily a worthwhile thing to believe, and I am also going to suggest that just because an institutional arrangement currently exists (for example, the Republican Party) does not mean that it is a good thing that that institution exists. The mishmash of ideas, values, and plans associated with conservatism might just be bad. Not just different, but actually... no good.

I concur that a hypothetical scenario wherein US becomes a one-party state because of the collapse of the Republican party would itself be bad. I do not agree, though, that this necessarily means that the Democratic Party needs a competing party to its right.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:51 AM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


You know who else "over prepares" I am Totally Okay with the comparison?

Batman?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:52 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think Rosie O'Donnell should be the next Colonel Sanders.
posted by notyou at 11:52 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rosie O'Donnell should be one of the people asking a question at the next town hall debate.
I would pay money to see this happen.


Or you could just fill the audience with people that Trump has mocked and/or not paid. That would be a fun crowd.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:53 AM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


So they've basically decided sexism/misogyny is their revenge tactic today. After Trump attacked and fat-shamed Alicia Machado this morning, and multiple cheater Giuliani attacked Clinton for being cheated on, this happened:

What NY GOP chairman Ed Cox told Breitbart today about Clinton: "She’s always ridden on someone else’s coattails," her husband's and Obama's

Maybe Mr. Khan can point out the 19th amendment in his constitution for Trump.
posted by chris24 at 11:54 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Puny Trump.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:56 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


> "Or you could just fill the audience with people that Trump has mocked and/or not paid. That would be a fun crowd."

You could frankly fill an extremely large hall solely with people Trump has insulted personally.
posted by kyrademon at 11:57 AM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pretty sure Bill was president because of Hillary's coattails (i.e. emotional labor and hard work), not the other way around. Same for Reagan. And FDR. And And And.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [41 favorites]


So uh, we're getting pretty close to a shutdown fight. The continuing resolution just failed to pass the Senate because the Republicans refused to include funding for the Flint water crisis and the Democrats balked.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well, isn't this curious:

The #TrumpWon hashtag starting location, that's interesting

I'll give you one guess...
posted by chris24 at 12:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [102 favorites]


What NY GOP chairman Ed Cox told Breitbart today about Clinton: "She’s always ridden on someone else’s coattails," her husband's and Obama's

If this is where they are going and all they have left as horrible as it is I don't think it will play out like they want.
It plays right into Clinton's hands.

For one it will not play well at all for the demographics that Trump needs. Way to turn off women even more and way to promote more solidarity in these groups.

Two it opens the door for more discussion about what she's actually done. If the media latches on and 'asks the question it could be good, especially with Trump now being a loser'.

Plus she looked and did very well at last night's debate and is going to be able to leverage a lot of positive energy from it. This can make the picture they're trying to make look contradictory.

Also Trump now has to deal with a fall into 'loser' territory while Hillary gets to be 'winner'. Trump is not good at all with being a loser and is going to likely lash out with this sort of thing and it be labelled and seen as 'loser lashing out with anything he can muster'.
posted by Jalliah at 12:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'll give you one guess...

Holy shit.
posted by rp at 12:07 PM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


You can submit and vote on questions for the town-hall debate here: presidentialopenquestions.com.
posted by amarynth at 12:07 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Things I've learned from this election.
Rosie O'Donnell and Scott Baio are the two most relevant celebrities in 2016.
Republicans are afraid of Skittles.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:11 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'll give you one guess...

I would have guessed "Donald Trump's iPhone, Donald Trump's Bathroom, USA." That's actually a lot more worrying.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:12 PM on September 27, 2016 [47 favorites]


If this is where they are going and all they have left as horrible as it is I don't think it will play out like they want.
It plays right into Clinton's hands.

For one it will not play well at all for the demographics that Trump needs. Way to turn off women even more and way to promote more solidarity in these groups.

Two it opens the door for more discussion about what she's actually done. If the media latches on and 'asks the question it could be good, especially with Trump now being a loser'.


It's also a charge that can easily be turned back on Trump, starting with the "small loan" from his father and continuing with the various people he conned and cheated to get where he is now (including the IRS and the American people, if he really is guilty of tax evasion).
posted by Rangi at 12:13 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


This has probably been posted in one of the previous thread, but I'm finding it particularly applicable today: Try Yelling F*ck! (Funny or Die).
posted by bibliowench at 12:13 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]




"Charity should be abolished; and be replaced by justice."
-- Norman Bethune
posted by monospace at 12:16 PM on September 27, 2016 [27 favorites]


Bulgaroktonos, your dad sounds a lot like my dad.

I haven't asked him how he is planning on voting since the primaries, when he told me he thought Trump was awful. A couple weeks ago I tentatively tested the waters of his possibly voting Democrat this time around, mostly by appealing to his Catholicism and how much I thought he would love Tim Kaine because of his faith and record of service.

Unfortunately he is firmly in the grip of Clinton Derangement Syndrome and hinted that he was thinking of staying home on election day. I was kinda shocked--he has never not voted--but hey! one less loyal Republican at the polls in the state of Wisconsin can only help down ballot races, and it's incredibly important for Russ Feingold to get back to the Senate.
posted by chaoticgood at 12:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


The #TrumpWon hashtag starting location, that's interesting

Whoa. Is this verifiable? (I have no idea how to search hashtag trending, so apologies if this question is totally ignorant.)
posted by uncleozzy at 12:20 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lawn sign/bumper sticker field report:

Hillary signs and stickers continue to proliferate but I also saw the first Trump bumper sticker in my neighborhood today. I made a mental note: fuck those people on the corner.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:21 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


I signed up for hashtracking.com to see if they gave map data but I wasn't able to see it with the free version.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:22 PM on September 27, 2016


I have finally caught up with the debate thread; yay!

*click on timestamp*
*copy url*
*open bookmarks*
*right-click Metafilter Election Thread; select properties*
*paste new url into location field*
*save and close*

*wait two hours; repeat.*
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:23 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clicking on that tweet and seeing St. Petersburg was like the dramatic reveal in a conspiracy-thriller movie. That's uhm... geez, I hope someone is looking into this. I mean, it could be VPN's, but even then, very curious.
posted by skewed at 12:24 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Lawn sign/bumper sticker field report:

Hillary signs and stickers continue to proliferate but I also saw the first Trump bumper sticker in my neighborhood today. I made a mental note: fuck those people on the corner.


Halloween's going to be interesting.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here's a Vox article that explains the Rosie/Donald feud.

It goes back to a time on The View in 2006. There's embedded video- here's a link to the video. Rosie rips into Trump and touched on every single one of his hot-button insecurities.

And then, as you're watching Rosie rip into Trump from a daytime talk show that aired almost 10 years ago, up pops a banner saying "Next [Guest]: Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton!" Is that real? That's a crazy coincidence if it's real.
posted by aabbbiee at 12:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


I mean, some people have heard of Blumenthal, but when the only person he attacked by name last night was Jewish, and his Twitter mob regularly attacks people for being Jewish, it kind of sure sounds like he's doing it on purpose.

That's not accurate. Trump also attacked Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

Oh, wait....
posted by msalt at 12:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


Here's a Vox article that explains the Rosie/Donald feud.

It goes back to a time on The View in 2006.


Every time I forget how petty he is, Donald reminds me himself. Thanks!
posted by filthy light thief at 12:26 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


> You can submit and vote on questions for the town-hall debate here: presidentialopenquestions.com.

Huh, these are in equal parts fascinating and stomach-turning to read through. I feel, too, like I'm seeing a lot more male names in the "Submitted by". (Also I'm on page 2 and not one Binh or Haruka or LaShawn. Just Jim and Brian and Bill.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:28 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I feel like Putin could go on TV and say "yes, I am employing hackers and trolls to disrupt the American election. I do this for, what do you call it, shits and giggles, and also because if they end up electing an easily manipulated buffoon, that is a bonus for me," and a) none of Trump's supporters would give a shit, and b) the too-left-for-HRC folks would still dismiss any mention of Russia as red scare McCarthyism etc
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:29 PM on September 27, 2016 [38 favorites]


> I'm kind of curious to know who stood in for Donald during Clinton's debate prep. I was just thinking about it because they must have had someone interrupt her constantly so she could get used to talking without breaking stride - I mean, whatever prepared her for that, she pulled it off solidly. Could be she's been doing it for years.


I believe the right answer for this is "almost every male she's work with in her professional experience"
posted by mrzarquon at 12:30 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I do this for, what do you call it, shits and giggles

It is for the, how do you say, "lulz"?
posted by dis_integration at 12:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Per the replies on the tweet, he did it at trendsmap.com.

Without a paid account, however, you can't zoom in however to double check.
posted by chris24 at 12:31 PM on September 27, 2016


I know it's way up thread (and sorry if I missed someone else posting it) but:

entropicamericana: serious, i need an animated gif of that. complete with the shoulder shimmy.

Does this help? I've just been watching it over and over and giggling.
posted by aka burlap at 12:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is not a "Queens" thing. This is a nouveau-riche, money is the be-all and end-all of one's ego thing.

I have to agree with this. My father was the epitome of this, and it's truly sad. Growing up poor, making it, and then having a bunch of money...that was really all he had. His money was the proof that he was worthy. He was vulgar and ostentatious about it, just to make sure anyone he ever interacted with knew he had money. There's a deep insecurity under this kind of bravado, and I think it becomes an addiction of sorts. If your self-worth is tied to being rich, if you find you are running low on money, maintaining the facade becomes all-important. I can see how that fear of being found out could lead to all kinds of underhanded and illegal financial dealings, in the desperation to maintain the status, knowing the only thing that gives you any status is your money.
posted by threeturtles at 12:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


I hope someone is looking into this.

Looking into what? As far as I know there is nothing illegal about starting a bogus hashtag trend. Even if a bunch of Russians do it. #treasontuesday
posted by The Bellman at 12:34 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump can't even get his hashtags made in America. Sad!
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:36 PM on September 27, 2016 [111 favorites]


I'll elaborate: here's a self-proclaimed "very successful man" who was bested by a woman in a verbal bout ten years ago, and he brings her up
TRUMP: You know, Hillary is hitting me with tremendous commercials. Some of it’s said in entertainment. Some of it’s said — somebody who’s been very vicious to me, Rosie O’Donnell, I said very tough things to her, and I think everybody would agree that she deserves it and nobody feels sorry for her.

But you want to know the truth? I was going to say something...

HOLT: Please very quickly.

TRUMP: ... extremely rough to Hillary, to her family, and I said to myself, “I can’t do it. I just can’t do it. It’s inappropriate. It’s not nice.” But she spent hundreds of millions of dollars on negative ads on me, many of which are absolutely untrue. They’re untrue. And they’re misrepresentations.

And I will tell you this, Lester: It’s not nice. And I don’t deserve that.

But it’s certainly not a nice thing that she’s done. It’s hundreds of millions of ads. And the only gratifying thing is, I saw the polls come in today, and with all of that money...

HOLT: We have to move on to the final question.

TRUMP: ... $200 million is spent, and I’m either winning or tied, and I’ve spent practically nothing.
So Trump opens on his topic of Hillary being mean to him, by pointing out he's said tough things to a woman who isn't even in the room, let alone there debating him. But everyone agrees she deserves it. But he won't be mean to Crooked Hillary, oh no.

So let's all take a moment to recognize Hillary is not nice to little Donny, because he's being a good boy and even without all of that money, he's either winning or tied.

[Editor's note: 538 tells us that HILLARY HAS ALWAYS BEEN AHEAD OF DONALD, though they were really close on July 30 and 31, before Clinton's odd shot up to 64.8% to Trump's 35.1% the very next day.]
posted by filthy light thief at 12:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


The first thing we're going to do on the cyber is stop these companies from stealing our hashtags and moving them overseas!
posted by winna at 12:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


NYT banner headline:
Trump Lashes Out, Calling Debate Unfair
Goes on Attack Against Moderator, and Pageant Winner

There is not enough popcorn in the world for this. And now I'm not sure he's coming back for a second debate. Or if he is, he's going to demand a bathroom break to top up on his uppers. Sad!
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


So many gross dog whistle-y questions on that townhall debate site. I don't have high hopes for good questions from that.
posted by yasaman at 12:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump / Putin can't even train their astroturfers to use a proxy. Sad!
posted by Surely This at 12:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]




In the upcoming town hall style debate, who chooses the audience?
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:49 PM on September 27, 2016


The menu, the venue, the seating...
posted by drezdn at 12:51 PM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


Speaking of sign reports, we drove to Ocean City MD this weekend to see my wife's parents. As usual, the Eastern Shore is a dip in the cold water of bugfuck jackholes and the giant Trump signs showed up the moment we made it over the bridge and onto Kent Island. Overall I just shake my head over these doofuses as their shit-flinging is never going to overcome the general blueness of Maryland, but they do keep sending turds like Andy Harris into the House to jerk the District around.

But I will admit this one sign was amusing enough that we sought it out and took a picture on our drive back. I ain't ever gonna eat there, mind you, but the sign made me laugh.

Sunday football watching meant running into some folks who had been Carson supporters - and who are, apparently, still in denial about how whackadoodle he actually is - and some of the I'm just so dejected, what bad choices, they're both awful was dropped and I used the response that I have gone to when I don't want to just let it go but also need to keep things fairly civil. And which has actually been 'working' pretty well.

You know, I didn't want Clinton either. But I don't think we can really pretend anymore that she's anywhere near as awful as him, can we?

This ignores how much I have warmed up to her in the six months since my vote mattered and how I'm pretty stoked to vote for her now, but there's not really any point in going into that sort of thing with people like this. And so far, when I have said this, the reaction has been basically a sigh and agreement. In this case they went on to talk about third party votes and choosing Johnson, which in Maryland - okay, that'll do.

I haven't had to have this conversation in Virginia yet, and unless my social circle changes it probably won't come up. The usual R voters I deal with now are either going to be dyed-in-the-wool types who might, at best, stay home, or they're folks with a serious interest in trade who are going to actively pick Clinton because of Trump's tariff talk. So maybe this isn't a productive way to turn someone into an actual Clinton vote, but if the opportunity comes up you can be sure I'll try.
posted by phearlez at 12:52 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


From the NYT story today: “If you’re that rattled in a debate,” Mr. Kaine said, “try being president.”
posted by Sublimity at 12:52 PM on September 27, 2016 [62 favorites]


You can submit and vote on questions for the town-hall debate here: presidentialopenquestions.com.

Guys, GO DO THIS! It seems not too many people have spotted it yet, and as of now, the top-ranking questions only have like 2000 votes! Your vote on this site might literally have more of an impact on the election than your actual vote, if you don't live in a swing state. And the sooner you jump on it, the more impact you'll have.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:52 PM on September 27, 2016 [40 favorites]


The internet is voting on the questions? I hope Hillary is prepared to address whether Joe Flacco is elite.
posted by drezdn at 12:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


Well, they agreed to CONSIDER the top questions from that site, which doesn't mean a whole lot, but it is probably still not a bad idea to try to get some sane stuff voted up there.
posted by Sequence at 12:56 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Mr. Trump, which is better - Boaty McBoatface, Biscuits & Gravy flavored Lay's potato chips, or Mountain Dew Pitch Black?
posted by zakur at 12:57 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


So many gross dog whistle-y questions on that townhall debate site. I don't have high hopes for good questions from that.

Yes, I'm glad that they said that they will only consider using the top 30 questions.
posted by amarynth at 12:58 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


those top questions are garbage, where is the downvote button
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:59 PM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


Best tweets, Wired edition
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:00 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Was this a deleted comment?

I think she's quoting her own talking points that she uses for talking to conservative friends?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:00 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Please explain the Internet, including TCP/IP, optical fibers, ethernet protocols, be as detailed and technical as you would like. 20 minutes each.

I want to find whoever posted that question and be mean about their favorite class in WoW.
posted by winna at 1:01 PM on September 27, 2016 [43 favorites]


Those top town-hall questions are dumb as hell, and therefore freeped so much.
posted by Yowser at 1:02 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


This ignores how much I have warmed up to her in the six months since my vote mattered and how I'm pretty stoked to vote for her now, but there's not really any point in going into that sort of thing with people like this.

There's this idea that people aren't excited to vote for her, but I feel like every time she's given a chance to present her vision for America it's actually really exciting? It's like we get one week of people talking about how masterful the DNC was at presenting a diverse and inspiring picture of America and then it's right back to "I guess we have to vote for her, don't we? Ugh." without remembering the DNC at all. I don't feel like that. She's not my perfect candidate made in a lab, but I'm really happy to be voting for her.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:02 PM on September 27, 2016 [25 favorites]




Please explain the Internet, including TCP/IP, optical fibers, ethernet protocols, be as detailed and technical as you would like. 20 minutes each. the cyber.

posted by Annika Cicada at 1:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [22 favorites]




OH. Thank you, liz! Thank you, showbiz_liz

No problem my Nog Friend
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:05 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


That's why the preference for charity over public social programs irks me: it assumes that everyone is Christian and/or attends religious services, and/or wouldn't mind being evangelized to while they receive a hot meal or shelter. And that's un-American.

I know I'm behind on the thread and all, but as someone who spent years working on the front lines where the only option for emergency housing, etc, was faith-based agency, let me say that the preaching was the least of my problem with them. Accepting that you're going to be evangelized to isn't that difficult for people in a desperate situation. I knew non-Christians who sat through their daily required prayer meeting fairly happily. I mean, it shouldn't be their only option, but whatever.

The real problem with relying on these independent church-run charities is that they're not at all accountable. They don't have to actually prove they really help anyone, or that their methods and programs are effective. They don't have to even really prove they're not making a profit, so long as their profit goes back into expanding the church and promoting themselves. What I saw was organizations that are supposed to help the homeless instead creating a dependency of people on the church. They didn't actually help people get housing, or jobs. Instead they required them to work for free in their money-making enterprises (thrift stores mostly). And if someone actually went and got a job, they kicked them out of the shelter.

With a government program, not only does it have to serve anyone and can't discriminate, there is accountability. There are surveys done on efficiency and outcomes. Programs are designed based on the latest social science. You're going to hear about the stats of how many of your clients ended up moving out of the emergency shelter and got permanent housing, or whatever.

With faith-based organizations there is none of that. They say they are helping, but no one is looking at the numbers. But people can say, oh, that need is being met, look at these great people. Even when I saw person after person fall back into rock bottom after being "helped" by these people. But there are always new people to help, so it always looks like they're accomplishing something.
posted by threeturtles at 1:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [96 favorites]


i mean, there are people (including myself) who aren't mega stoked to be voting for her because of serious policy differences, but i will vote for her because i AM excited to vote against a racist fascist dipshit. you can't force everyone to be excited about a candidate, but you can definitely persuade them that it's the right thing to do
posted by burgerrr at 1:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


NOTE: Questions must not name or allude to a candidate

Ahahahaha lol lol lol well then
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


I actually would love for the candidates (in any election) to have to answer basic high school level questions about the federal government, but that'll never happen.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yeah, that was my thought - put a bunch of really basic fact questions on there. "Who is the Vice President right now?" "On what continent is the Amazon rain forest?"
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:08 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Cyber" as shorthand for "cybersecurity" is accepted jargon in DC -- I've pretty much tuned it out since my desk at work is right next to the people who cover those issues. So Trump wasn't being incoherent, he was talking like a Washington insider!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:08 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Guys, GO DO THIS! It seems not too many people have spotted it yet, and as of now, the top-ranking questions only have like 2000 votes! Your vote on this site might literally have more of an impact on the election than your actual vote, if you don't live in a swing state. And the sooner you jump on it, the more impact you'll have.

As it stands now, we're going to get 30 variations on "Secretary Clinton, why are you such a lying bitch?"

Who the hell approved this format? When have (relatively) anonymous internet majorities ever resulted in a fair outcome? Have the Open Debate Coalition people ever been to Twitter?

At this point, just fucking have the next debate be an AMA if you want Trump to win so badly.
posted by bibliowench at 1:09 PM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


How would you go about reducing violent in black communities?

Trump: You know, I have large crowds appear at all of my rallies. And they are prepared to march into black communities and restore order. And they are not deplorable. Not deplorable at all.

[fake]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:10 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Cyber" as shorthand for "cybersecurity" is accepted jargon in DC

I'm told it's where the jobs are.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:10 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Guys, GO DO THIS! It seems not too many people have spotted it yet, and as of now, the top-ranking questions only have like 2000 votes! Your vote on this site might literally have more of an impact on the election than your actual vote, if you don't live in a swing state. And the sooner you jump on it, the more impact you'll have.

This comment encouraged me to shift from reading all the names and questions in awe to flagging the fuck out of questions that violate the guidelines (one of which is "questions must not name or allude to a candidate") and voting for the good ones. So thank you!

I started by going through the front page and voting for those that seemed reasonable (most of which happened to be on economic issues), but now I am searching for "women" and voting for questions about women's rights, because clearly help is needed in that area (and those seem trigger the most epic Trump meltdowns, which I like). I might submit my own if I don't find enough good ones. (Also the results of that search are what led me to start flagging because ha ha haaaaaaaaa)
posted by sunset in snow country at 1:13 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Poor white ignorance, liberals and Trump: When I moved to California, I had a dramatic paradigm shift. Not only did I see vegetables and fruits available that had actual colour surrounding me, but I became painfully aware of my Southern-ness. Growing up, my mother’s family was something I tried to define myself against because of their tendency to use the ’n’ word. I saw their anti-Blackness as part and parcel of why they lived in trailers and struggled to find work, almost as if they deserved it. And moving to California and going to university only compounded this belief.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:13 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


NOTE: Questions must not name or allude to a candidate

Ha! All of the questions that I'm drafting (in my mind) would not be appropriate, then. "How are the funds from your charitable foundation used? For example, have they ever been used to bribe an attorney general?"
posted by amarynth at 1:13 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't think Trump was on coke, his sniffles sounded different. What it did sound like was possibly a deviated septum, which could have been caused by past cocaine use.
posted by rhizome at 1:13 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The internet is voting on the questions?

Yeah, my worry is that the media caves on this whole "moderator was unfair" thing and pulls some of the stupider questions from the internet vote to bog this thing down into emails/Benghazi, while Trump plays his mugs game with the audience.
posted by nubs at 1:14 PM on September 27, 2016


I'm uh..."in the IT security trade" pretty deep, my team never uses that term at all and I've only used the term "cybersecurity" once in non-ironic terms and that was here on Mefi hahahaha.

Cyber totally means fucking on the internet :-)
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:15 PM on September 27, 2016 [33 favorites]


Kitteh/Shaq/Hill shimmy
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:15 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Cyber" as shorthand for "cybersecurity" is accepted jargon in DC -- I've pretty much tuned it out since my desk at work is right next to the people who cover those issues. So Trump wasn't being incoherent, he was talking like a Washington insider!

As someone who works on cybersecurity in DC, let me point out that it's the marketing divisions that love "cyber," not those of us who do the actual work. And like the marketing divisions of our classic novels, they're a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


"Cyber" as shorthand for "cybersecurity" is accepted jargon in DC

Is "The Cyber?"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


The internet is voting on the questions?

CTRL-F "harambe"

0 of 0

I'm guessing there is some moderation going on.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:18 PM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


Marketing divisions and reporters, then. Or at least the reporters in my office.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:18 PM on September 27, 2016


This comment encouraged me to shift from reading all the names and questions in awe to flagging the fuck out of questions that violate the guidelines (one of which is "questions must not name or allude to a candidate") and voting for the good ones. So thank you!

I just realized I can search for the word 'email' (currently appearing in 36 questions) and flag them all at once!
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't think Trump was on coke, his sniffles sounded different. What it did sound like was possibly a deviated septum, which could have been caused by past cocaine use.

Has the sniffling been recorded elsewhere? Perhaps Cheeto Jesus just had a cold.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:20 PM on September 27, 2016


Lol well apparently flagging questions does work, because

Why are you deleting questions submitted about Hillary's emails and Benghazi?
I have been watching and screen printing questions and than when you come back to them they are deleted. So in other words you really arent going to be fair and balance?
Submitted by: J P. from IL

posted by showbiz_liz at 1:21 PM on September 27, 2016 [36 favorites]


But I will admit this one sign was amusing enough that we sought it out and took a picture on our drive back.

Crabi Gras? Seriously?

In a truly just world, "crabi" would be a word in some kind of French dialect used at some point in the last thousand years that meant something horrifying and embarrassing so it would turn out that they called their restaurant "Fat Wanker" or "Fat Chunk Of Sputum Floating In A Spittoon."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:22 PM on September 27, 2016


No harambe because you can't refer to candidates, entropicamericana.

This has been your daily reminder that Harambe outpolls Jill Stein
posted by knuckle tattoos at 1:22 PM on September 27, 2016 [28 favorites]


Rolling Stone: The Case Against Jill Stein
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:23 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


In a truly just world, "crabi" would be a word in some kind of French dialect used at some point in the last thousand years that meant something horrifying and embarrassing so it would turn out that they called their restaurant "Fat Wanker" or "Fat Chunk Of Sputum Floating In A Spittoon."


Based on the sexist shit images on their website (the things I look at for you people...) it already means that.

But overall - forget it Jake, it's Eastern Shore.
posted by phearlez at 1:24 PM on September 27, 2016


I just really want the sole word Cyber to never lose it's pre-Eternal September meaning.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Nobody that isn't either clueless or a wanker says "cyber."
posted by diogenes at 1:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I flagged a Harambe question and a few that were nonsensical, and have been upvoting the coherent ones that don't refer to particular candidates from the "Newest First" page.
posted by Leslie Knope at 1:26 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


The real problem with relying on these independent church-run charities is that they're not at all accountable. They don't have to actually prove they really help anyone, or that their methods and programs are effective. They don't have to even really prove they're not making a profit, so long as their profit goes back into expanding the church and promoting themselves. What I saw was organizations that are supposed to help the homeless instead creating a dependency of people on the church.

One of the complaints of modern movement conservatism is alleging that Democrats keep, ah, minorities dependent on them in order to get their votes.

As national treasure Charles Pierce keeps saying, it's always projection with these people.
posted by Gelatin at 1:28 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Has the sniffling been recorded elsewhere? Perhaps Cheeto Jesus just had a cold.

There was no sniffling.
posted by rp at 1:28 PM on September 27, 2016




I'm surprised no one listed any questions about duck-sized horses on that enter-your-debate-questions site.
posted by pxe2000 at 1:30 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


There was no sniffling.

Sigh. We've always been at war with Eastasia.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:31 PM on September 27, 2016


Nobody that isn't either clueless or a wanker says "cyber."

*raises hand*

I regularly used it when talking to my last bosses about computer and network issues. They were the type who thought they knew a lot more about computer technology then they did and I purposely used 'techie' sounding jargon in order to convince them not to do stupid things.
posted by Jalliah at 1:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


And if he was just using the hip DC lingo, that means he referred to "the security aspect of cybersecurity," and that's even dumber!
posted by diogenes at 1:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Halloween's going to be interesting.

What's that dumb trivia item every TV station drags out every election-year October? The candidate whose Halloween masks sell better always wins, or something?

Because one of these two candidates is much more of a mask-ready caricature than the other, so it doesn't really seem a fair comparison.
posted by rokusan at 1:33 PM on September 27, 2016


Jalliah, I'm picturing your job interview like this.
posted by diogenes at 1:34 PM on September 27, 2016


WaPo's Comic Riffs: The best cartoons about the first Clinton-Trump debate
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:35 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


So you're code-switching for the clueless.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:35 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I realllllllly don't want a bunch of dudes dressing up as Clinton.
posted by AFABulous at 1:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


if he really is guilty of tax evasion

I doubt he actually he is, at least not legally. Morally I'm sure of it, but it's much more likely that the US (as with many countries) is guilty of having a tax code that allows people with unreasonable amounts of money to pay proportionally little to no tax. I mean, the man is still an arse, obviously.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Morally I'm sure of it, but it's much more likely that the US (as with many countries) is guilty of having a tax code that allows people with unreasonable amounts of money to pay proportionally little to no tax.

You're right. And I think that the real benefit for Clinton of pushing on him about not paying tax isn't necessarily that it makes people think he's doing something illegal. It's that it goads him into bragging about taking advantage of the system (same with his bankruptcies).
posted by roll truck roll at 1:43 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I said it before, but just because he could have no or minimal income tax burden legally doesn't mean he did. The Trump Foundation slush fund is just so lazily illegal that I can easily imagine he couldn't bring himself to jump through the hoops necessary to exploit tax loopholes properly.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:43 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Halloween's going to be interesting.

There's already a sexy Trump costume on the market. Meet Donna T. Rumpshaker.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Flagging the stupid questions, as they almost invariably violate the rule of "not naming or alluding to a particular candidate", is surprisingly therapeutic. Not actually soothing, since I startled the cat with my power-mad cackle once I realized I could do this.
posted by ultranos at 1:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Stupid submitted debate questions

Well, you could vote for my very reasonable question about the science of climate change or my slightly more mischievous question about weight.
posted by msalt at 1:48 PM on September 27, 2016


So how long does it take for polls to reflect the debate? Polls that can't be gamed of course.
posted by Jalliah at 1:49 PM on September 27, 2016




my slightly more mischievous question about weight.

Looks like the open debate mods zapped it. How mischievous was that question?
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:51 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


So how long does it take for polls to reflect the debate? Polls that can't be gamed of course.

On the post-debate 538 podcast, Nate said it would take about a week for the debate to be fully factored into the models as polls come out. Seeing just polls would be a little sooner (since the model adjusts over time), so I'd guess by this weekend we'd start seeing polls conducted entirely after the debate.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:51 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sam Biddle: wow @GUCCIFER_2 trump just said you weigh 400 pounds are you gonna take that
posted by PenDevil at 1:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


filthy light thief: Halloween's going to be interesting.

rokusan: What's that dumb trivia item every TV station drags out every election-year October? The candidate whose Halloween masks sell better always wins, or something?

Halloween mask sales predict Obama win 60-40 (CNN Money, October 23, 2012)
Obama beat out Sen. John McCain in mask sales in 2008 with the same split as this year. The retailer also predicted a President George W. Bush win over Sen. John Kerry in 2004, a 2000 Bush victory over former Vice President Al Gore, and a Sen. Bob Dole defeat by President Bill Clinton in 1996.
But I was thinking more of animosities towards houses with the opponent's signs. Do you tell your kids "skip that house," or are "tricks" employed?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:54 PM on September 27, 2016


Thanks you thefoxgod.

Just mostly wondering how long I have to put up reading about him winning 'all the polls, hands down.' Will be good to have some real polls regardless of what they show.
posted by Jalliah at 1:56 PM on September 27, 2016


Nobody that isn't either clueless or a wanker says "cyber."

I have bad news for you - cyber is already the accepted term in the insurance industry for losses from hacking and similar events, which presumably means it's the accepted business usage. You're well on your way to being that person in the 90's saying "that's cracking! hackers are good!".
posted by kersplunk at 1:58 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Don't get me started on the topic of "Cyber Insurance"
posted by mrzarquon at 1:59 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nobody that isn't either clueless or a wanker says “cyber.”

I have bad news for you - cyber is already the accepted term in the insurance industry for losses from hacking and similar events, which presumably means it's the accepted business usage. You're well on your way to being that person in the 90's saying “that’s cracking! hackers are good!”

“cyber”, yes. “The cyber”, no.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:00 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Can someone please tell me where I can hire Barron Trump? We need some white hat intrusion detection at the office and I have it on good authority that he is the best in the game.
posted by PenDevil at 2:02 PM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


Looks like the open debate mods zapped it. How mischievous was that question?

Well, to be fair it did blatantly violate the "don't refer to candidates" rule.
"Mr. Trump, you've criticized many women for their weight. Is Hillary Clinton fat? Are you?"
posted by msalt at 2:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Nobody's gonna be laughing at nitpicks over jargon when Cybersecurity Czar Barron Trump stops a Light Cycle attack and thwarts the evil designs of the MCP
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]




Can someone please tell me where I can hire Barron Trump?

The third grade?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


So a dude at my work told me, this morning, that the "400lb hacker sitting on their bed" is probably an unintentional ripoff of a character from the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. A fellow named Plague? I haven't read it - I hope someone here can weigh in - but I would totally buy that DJT would shameless, mindlessly incorporate literal fiction into his campaign rhetoric.
posted by janell at 2:05 PM on September 27, 2016


Your daily dose of Fahrenthold, based on Hallie Jackson's excellent interview with Boris Epshteyn on MSNBC today: Trump is actually doing his foundation a favor, by ‘storing’ its portrait on his golf resort wall, his adviser says:
There are IRS rules which specifically state that when a foundation has an item, an individual can store those items -- on behalf of the foundation -- in order to help it with storage costs," Trump adviser Boris Epshteyn said on MSNBC. "And that's absolutely proper."

MSNBC's Hallie Jackson pressed Epshteyn. Was he really talking about the $10,000 portrait that was recently discovered -- by an Univision journalist -- at the Champions Bar and Grill? "You're telling me that that is storage, for Mr. Trump?" Jackson.

"Right, of course, he’s doing a good thing for his foundation," Epshteyn said.

[Goes on to explain that the world does not work this way. Up is up and down is down and "storing" a $10,000 portrait of yourself on the wall of your club is not charity.]
...
Tax experts were not impressed by this reasoning.

"It's hard to make an IRS auditor laugh," Brett Kappel, an attorney who advises nonprofit groups at the Akerman law firm, wrote in an email. "But this would do it."
...
After Epshteyn's comments, The Washington Post sent him new questions. If Trump is only storing the $10,000 portrait now, what charitable use does he have in mind for it, eventually?

Epshteyn did not respond.
posted by zachlipton at 2:07 PM on September 27, 2016 [36 favorites]


400lb hacker sitting on their bed" is probably an unintentional ripoff of a character from the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Or any number of trope-of-the-week crime dramas with initials like CSI, SVU, NCIS, etc.
posted by Sophie1 at 2:08 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


So a dude at my work told me, this morning, that the "400lb hacker sitting on their bed" is probably an unintentional ripoff of a character from the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. A fellow named Plague?

There is a character named Plague in the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo books; he is roughly described as six foot and 300 ish pounds, if I remember right.

I wouldn't take it as a ripoff of Plague as much as the stereotype that Trump and the Trumpists would have of the hacker community - overweight, social misfits who don't do anything productive.
posted by nubs at 2:11 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


CSI: The Cyber
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Trump has never actually read The Girl with Dragon Tattoo, or as it was originally titled, Men Who Hate Women.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:13 PM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


CSI: The Cyber

Didn't you watch the debate? It's Law and Order he wants to bring back, not CSI.
posted by roll truck roll at 2:15 PM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


No question, he was thinking of Nedry from Jurassic Park
posted by theodolite at 2:15 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


Or any number of trope-of-the-week crime dramas with initials like CSI, SVU, NCIS, etc.

Which basically goes to show how outdated that stereotype of outlaw hackers is. If Trump was actually up on his pop culture, he would have made a crack about guys with autism-spectrum disorders wearing Guy Fawkes masks and hoodies.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:16 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


CSI: The Cyber

It would not surprise me at all to learn that Donald was a writer on that show.

It was that awful.
posted by srboisvert at 2:16 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


No question, he was thinking of Nedry from Jurassic Park

NEWMAN!
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Previously, on CSI Cyber
posted by Artw at 2:18 PM on September 27, 2016


Okay so I listened to Trump for the first time in years today to watch this debate.

Dude gives a massive, red blinking light, flag flying tip to being a scam artist when he pulls this schtick: pride in filing a "104-page essentially financial statement of sorts" (wtf) then bragging about "694 million in income! 694 million!"

Not. A. Businessman. I work in consultiing and am at a level where contractual info is small talk. We never, and I mean never, talk about income. We talk about operating margin.

Income? Hoo boy oh yeah man, I earned A GAJILLION DOLLARS! A GAJILLION! If you'd told me a few years ago that I'd be a GAJILLIONAIRE! boy yeah I wouldn't have believed you!

never mind that I had an operating margin of 0.0000000001%
(I'm speaking for myself because I have the sneaking suspicion that Trump has no margin, but instead has a deficit)
posted by fraula at 2:18 PM on September 27, 2016 [45 favorites]


Speaking of The Cyber, Reuters reports Exclusive: FBI probes hacks targeting phones of Democratic Party officials - sources:
The more recent attempted phone hacking also appears to have been conducted by Russian-backed hackers, two people with knowledge of the situation said.
posted by zachlipton at 2:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


As a side note, something I really love is how the performance of the candidates reflects the underlying arc of their campaigns, and in a way, their personal narratives.

Trump started out with the silver spoon of low, low, low expectations. Therefore, he passed muster for a little bit, but eventually collapsed in a pile of vomit.

Hillary started out wonkier than her team probably wanted, but because she has prepared and studied and put in the time and is incredibly, genuinely tough, she pulled it together. She stuck to the plan, gaining confidence and strength as it visibly worked, and finished strong, including that pitch-perfect rollout for the devastating Machado ad.

So yeah, Trump, fucking up again and again even though he started with a silver spoon versus Clinton stumbling at first, but just gritting it the fuck out with brains and discipline and commitment.

I AM SO PROUD OF HILLARY I HOPE SHE SLEPT AT NIGHT LIKE MY MAYBE-GETTING-OVER-THE-SLEEP-REGRESSION FOUR MONTH OLD BABY.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:20 PM on September 27, 2016 [30 favorites]


There is a character named Plague in the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo books; he is roughly described as six foot and 300 ish pounds, if I remember right.

It was written in 2004. In inflation adjusted 2016 pounds that would be about 400.
posted by srboisvert at 2:20 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


fraula, it's obvious Trumpy has "Gross Income" but not "Net Income" because everything he does is Gross.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:22 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's blatantly a shill for white witch supremacists.
posted by Artw at 2:24 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think he was thinking of Pearl from Blade for his hacker but I'm also pretty sure that Trump's private life is like a way trashier and lamer version of vampire society from those movies.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:24 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]




Trump declares DNC hack most likely pulled off by a "junkie dolphin" [gibson]
posted by Artw at 2:27 PM on September 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


I'm just waiting for the election flavored Epic Rap Battle of History to match the amazing Romney vs Obama episode from the past.

Can we have that please? Two months since their last video, that'd be great. I'd be so happy.
posted by RolandOfEld at 2:28 PM on September 27, 2016


Meanwhile, in turnout suppression tactics news:

Judge blocks Election Day registration at Illinois polling places

Hopefully, this goes without saying but fuck that very much.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:30 PM on September 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


Sam Biddle: wow @GUCCIFER_2 trump just said you weigh 400 pounds are you gonna take that

Now I know why Assange can't leave his house.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:32 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Top story over at Univision: Trump-Clinton Debate causes searches for 'register to vote' in Spanish to shoot up to record levels

The VP candidate debates are usually a sideshow. Kane speaks Spanish. This could be interesting.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:36 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


David Waldman killing it on twitter - start here and click into the future.
posted by prefpara at 2:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


One of the Univision anchors should've been a moderator for one of the debates. Actually when you look at total viewership in the US Univision is actually one of the larger news networks so it's kind of nonsense to not give them a shot.

But of course there is no way that Trump could handle being question by Jorge Ramos or Maria Elena Salinas.
posted by vuron at 2:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


From way back:
I'm kind of curious to know who stood in for Donald during Clinton's debate prep.
It was Philippe Reines, who is apparently known to be fiercely loyal to HRC but also combative and bullish. To wit:
BuzzFeed published an email exchange between Reines and Michael Hastings where the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State told Hastings to "Fuck off." Reines also took issue with a reporter's questions in December 2012, calling a Fox News correspondent's question about his boss "absolutely asinine."
posted by xyzzy at 2:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Judge blocks Election Day registration at Illinois polling places - as slimy as this is, there is a logic to it. The voter-day reg law required counties with populations over 100k, which also used electronic polling books, to allow same-day reg at polling places. Lower-pop counties allowed same-day reg, but only at "centralized locations."

Blocking this will obviously have political and racial bias in application; whether it passes as unbiased in constitutional foundation would take a higher court to figure out. "The application of this legislation favors the urban citizen and dilutes the vote of the rural citizen," wrote Der-Yeghiayan.

That's a coherent argument. Insisting on the same kind of reg options for rural and urban voters appears reasonable... if there is the same availability of that option. The article doesn't mention how many non-polling registration locations are available in urban and rural counties.

If the block is upheld, I would love to see it replaced by a law that requires X locations per Y population, which would make polling places the obvious additional spots for counties with larger populations.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


No need to malign witches, artw
posted by orange ball at 2:47 PM on September 27, 2016


I know I live in MA but one of the guys who is waterproofing my basement, he was talking about his trip to Germany and he was talking about all the unexploded ordinances in fields and the wars and of course I made the remark "well that's what you get when you elect a dictator" and he followed "like Trump *shudder*"

He was a twenty-something male from Youngstown, OH. I have hope.
posted by Talez at 2:50 PM on September 27, 2016 [37 favorites]


No need to malign witches, artw

Technically she is an immigrant, though she moced to that dimension prior to the existence of pretty much anything.
posted by Artw at 2:56 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Halloween's going to be interesting.

All I want is a Trump costume that involves masses of Void Crabs spilling out of the mouth and peeking out from the cracks in the flesh suit.
posted by happyroach at 3:05 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


All I know is that after last night, if things go sideways, I am going to protest, like, all the time, I'll figure out something. I will make it my mission in life to limit the damage from a Trump presidency. Because like others here, I fell a little in love with HRC last night, and while she'll probably fuck up my passion for her somewhere in her presidency, my disdain and disgust for Trump I think is kind of limitless.

HELLO NSA.

In other news, some of my Trump-supporting students were So! Upset! That Clinton had been MEAN. I was biting my lips hard, all, like, here's an excuse to turn around so they don't see my face, let's consult the board, students
posted by angrycat at 3:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


>> Actually, it's a fantastic final question. Donald has just said point-blank in front of 100 million people that he'll accept the election results

> Except he didn't. He said "I will support her." That isn't the same as that he'll accept the results


Except he didn't say that either. He said "I will support her IF SHE WINS." That gives him wiggle room:


"Mr. Trump, you said that you'd accept the election results in front of an audience of a hundred million viewers."

"No I didn't. That's a lie. I never. Said. That. What I said, and it's on the Internet, you can check it out, just ask the google, what I said is ... I will support the secretary, IF. SHE WINS. Now did she win? I say she didn't. Some people say she did. But I say she didn't. Look, I have more than 12 million followers on the Twitter. She barely has 9 million if even that. How could she have won? Obviously, the results have been tampered. It's a big problem. And we don't know who it was. Maybe ISIS, maybe the Chinese. The things that you can do with cyber ... My son. I have a son who is 10 years old. He is SO GOOD with computers. Like you wouldn't believe it. We can't let this happen. We just can't allow someone faking the election to get the codes for nuclear. We just can't. I'm calling on the good citizens of this nation to stop this. Stop Hillary Clinton and lock her up."
posted by sour cream at 3:10 PM on September 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


> In other news, some of my Trump-supporting students were So! Upset! That Clinton had been MEAN.

How do people like this square their belief that Trump is a Tough Guy with their concern for his apparently very easily bruised feelings?
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:15 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


How do people like this square their belief that Trump is a Tough Guy with their concern for his apparently very easily bruised feelings?

Men being bullies = "keeping it real" and "telling it like it is."

Women holding somebody accountable for being a bully = "who does that B**** think she is?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [45 favorites]


He was asked by MSNBC in the spin room last night after the debate if he would abide by the will of the American people and accept the election's results if Clinton wins, and said, "Absolutely."
posted by zarq at 3:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I mean, I don't think his word is worth shit, but he said it.
posted by zarq at 3:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Debate night takes crook, but look:

Sunday I knocked on a door, asked for a voter listed at that address, and was told that the voter had sold the house back in 1994*. Nineteen! Nineteen-ninety-fricking-four! ... Is this the list with which we are to defend America?

There's no way this error wasn't already fixed on the fabulous Obama voter database. (We canvassed this turf plenty in 2008 and 2012; the current owner is even a Hillary volunteer: helpful, retired, at home on a Sunday afternoon.)

The database is key to our allegedly strong ground game. Now is the point when we fix it, so that later we can do Persuasion, followed by GOTV. And it's easy! And fun! People are surprisingly friendly when you come to their door at this point in the campaign, much politer and more accessible than when you phone them. If you meet hardcore Trump supporters, that helps the campaign: the best use of your time is to talk less, smile more, flag it as a 5 and move on. Most Trump-leaners I've found have been mushy; put them down as a 3 or a 4, tell the campaign 'I have voters that will yield for you', and someone else can go persuade them.

*mrs_goldfish reckons Bill was like 'Honey, here's how I won last time, I've got a great list for you' and didn't explain it was the exact same list he'd had stashed away in his sock drawer.
posted by feral_goldfish at 3:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


Ok, they're fast on the moderation. 30 seconds to removal.

On the other hand, something like this (which is clearly against the stated guidelines) has 1266 votes.

That said, I'm not too worried as I don't think they're planning to take this list very seriously...
posted by thefoxgod at 3:21 PM on September 27, 2016




> Women holding somebody accountable for being a bully = "who does that B**** think she is?"

Absolutely, I get that...but you'd think that in their misogynistic worldview a Tough Guy should be able to handle anything a woman could dish out.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Re: the amphetamines, many people have been saying he's been abusing Fen-Phen for a while now.

I know this has probably been beat to death by now, but i just could not let this one go. It's too funny. I'm a DJ/producer who used to play a ton of shows/festivals occasionally/etc, and i watched this with a bunch of people in related industries at the bar attached to a venue. We've all seen a lot of Fucking High People. The audience there, and everyone we talked to afterwards(at an actual show, heh) were fucking unanimous that this guy was giving like ten tells for being high as fuck.

Even the bouncers were laughing about it.

He was just so blatantly obviously high. I heard it all night, and i've been getting texts and DMs about it today. The sniffing was only like, 25% of it. Just the shit he was doing with his jaw and so many other things.

Dude was 5am in the club geeked. I've been at plenty of after hours things where most of the people weren't that high. I had like, sore stomach muscles from endlessly chortling at it.
posted by emptythought at 3:27 PM on September 27, 2016 [100 favorites]


Seriously, where do they even find these people?

When you stop to look, there are a surprising number of large, flat, easily lifted rocks around.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:27 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


In their misogynistic worldview they're not upset that someone was mean to Donald, and the issue isn't whether or not he can "take it." They're upset that a woman challenged him.
posted by AndrewInDC at 3:27 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


All of those local and state campaign staffers are basically walk-in volunteers in terms of (a) the amount of time anyone spent checking them out and (b) how much they're getting paid.
posted by theodolite at 3:28 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Campaign-crushing news: Hillary Clinton Shimmy at Presidential Debate Goes on a Few Seconds Too Long [warning: Breitbart]
Hillary Clinton sought a humanizing moment at Monday’s presidential debate when she wiggled and giggled at an accusation from her rival Donald Trump — but she may have taken the gesture a little too far.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:29 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Big League Trouble: Trump Faces New Questions About His Charity Finances [TPM]

No new info above and beyond the WaPo article, but they interviewed a bunch of tax people who pretty much all agreed that it's bad (but likely not prosecutable as criminal tax evasion):
One former IRS regulator told TPM that, taken all together, the financial dealings surrounding the foundation would have forced him to “give some serious thought” to recommending a criminal investigation into the foundation’s practices.

“Is this is a one-off or is this something he encouraged?” asked Gordon Fischer, a lawyer in Iowa who specializes in charitable giving. “Assignment of income – that you could just give income you receive to your foundation and not pay tax on it – that’s sort of taxes 101, or at least 201. It’s a pretty basic thing.”

“I’d really like to know who [the Trump foundation's] lawyers are, because they either gave him really bad advice or he didn’t listen to them,” said Lloyd Meyer, a Notre Dame Law School professor who teaches courses on not-for-profit organizations.

“No prosecutor would go after him for this, because it’s just too hard to prove,” Meyer said, unless there was some smoking gun, like an email, that showed Trump knew he was breaking the law.

“The pattern we are starting to see is that, he is not just pushing the envelope, he is going outside of what the law allows,” Meyer said. “He is being very aggressive in what he is doing. Maybe aggressive out of ignorance?”

A claim of ignorance also undermines the central arguments Trump has made for his candidacy: that he is an extremely successful businessman who knows how to surround himself with all the best people.

“He's a guy who is supposedly a billionaire but has run that foundation like a thousand-aire,” said [Jim Fishman, a professor at The Elisabeth Haub School of Law at Pace University in New York, who teaches courses on nonprofit law].
posted by melissasaurus at 3:29 PM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


I'm surprised no one listed any questions about duck-sized horses on that enter-your-debate-questions site.
Ok, they're fast on the moderation. 30 seconds to removal.

You know, in a world where candidates can be asked "boxers or briefs," I think we are owed an answer to the vital question of horse-sized ducks or duck-sized horses.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:30 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Historical significance from The New Yorker (the least-awful New-York-Centric publication): Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, Through the Years. Their first Trump reference was a cartoon featuring his Tower; during the 1992 campaign, references to her personal style and "bake cookies" quote.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:31 PM on September 27, 2016


You know, it's worth noting that the candidate who owned a cannabis business is not the one high as hell on TV.
posted by corb at 3:32 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Campaign-crushing news: Hillary Clinton Shimmy at Presidential Debate Goes on a Few Seconds Too Long [warning: Breitbart]
#shimmyshaming
posted by entropicamericana at 3:32 PM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


You know, it's worth noting that the candidate who owned a cannabis business is not the one high as hell on TV.

false
posted by theodolite at 3:33 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


The audience there, and everyone we talked to afterwards(at an actual show, heh) were fucking unanimous that this guy was giving like ten tells for being high as fuck.

Well at least we know where Howard Dean has been hanging out the last few years.
posted by PenDevil at 3:34 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump and his mic complaints remind me of all the bar pool games I've watched where a woman made a poor shot and was like, "Well dang!" (I'm Southern) and the man made a poor shot and was like, "This cue sucks!" and went to go grab another one. Dude. ALL the bar cues suck. Ya plays with the one ya gets. SHE is, and not blaming her game on it.
posted by thebrokedown at 3:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


Seriously, where do they even find these people?
The basket of deplorables is both deep and broad
posted by Golem XIV at 3:38 PM on September 27, 2016


Seriously, where do they even find these people?

The campaign isn't finding them; it attracts them to it.

Flies to shit.
posted by zakur at 3:38 PM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


Actually, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump at his own game: mansplaining [Jill Filipovic, WaPo]
Clinton, then, was playing on an uneven field: If she talked too much, she’d be dinged, but she needed to establish her authority over a male opponent, in front of an electorate deeply uncomfortable with female authority. Dominate the conversation, and she’s a pushy bitch. Stay too quiet, and she’s too meek. Respond to Trump’s furious tone and defensive posture in kind, and she’s unhinged, out of control, weak.

And so she just smiled. She kept talking calmly and evenly, even when Trump tried to talk over her. She slowly and delicately dug under his thin skin. She corrected him firmly and sometimes mockingly, but with at least a veneer of courtesy. She avoided gender-related hazards and let him trip over them instead.

You might say she womansplained her way to a win.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:41 PM on September 27, 2016 [60 favorites]


On the other hand, something like this (which is clearly against the stated guidelines) has 1266 votes.

I took the time to write them an email about that one. It was removed a minute later.
posted by mrgoat at 3:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


NYT: Suburban Women Find Little to Like in Donald Trump’s Debate Performance

"This year, as in past elections, the key to carrying Pennsylvania is expected to be winning the trove of educated voters, especially women, in the counties surrounding Philadelphia. Here in Chester County, Mitt Romney defeated President Obama in 2012 by less than one percentage point; Mr. Obama won nearby Bucks County by a margin nearly as close.

In several dozen interviews on Tuesday, undecided women here consistently said that Mr. Trump had failed to win them over, and that in several cases he had repelled them."
posted by chris24 at 3:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Minor correction: s/Oliver/Thomas/

I was told there would be no fact-checking in this thread.
posted by um at 3:51 PM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]


And I got an email from someone working the site about the removal.

Thanks for writing. We are delighted at the amount of attention and participation the site is getting, but are currently working through a backlog of flags. We do not have an automated removal process, every question is individually assessed. I have removed the question you mentioned, I appreciate you bringing it to our attention.

Regards,
name omitted

Thanks, name removed. Moderating that site must be hell on earth. You'd think they'd have a queue or something, but I guess all the reports are in one big pile.
posted by mrgoat at 3:52 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


This isn't the first time Trump has used the word braggadocius. It came up in his remarks last year, and I was so impressed I wrote a song (self-link).
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:52 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


He was just so blatantly obviously high.

This is how he's acted (minus the sniffing) at every campaign and primary appearance.

It's possible that he was high on something every time. Or it's possible he's a fidgety, short-attention-spanned man with an uncontrollable ego and a misogynistic streak.
posted by zarq at 3:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


> You might say she womansplained her way to a win.

In the room I watched the debate in, the biggest applause line was probably the "Well, ACTUALLY..." IIRC correctly she broke out into a wide grin as she launched into it; she knew exactly what she was doing and it must have felt *great*.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [59 favorites]


Or both.
posted by Gelatin at 3:55 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Long before the term "mansplain" entered common usage I mansplained something to an ex-girlfriend and she took me down by saying "Thanks, Professor!" in the most scathing tone of voice you could possibly imagine. There was no possible comeback.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:58 PM on September 27, 2016 [31 favorites]


Regarding the sniffle supercut...

If you listen to the version with words (i.e. 'Bla bla bla sniff! Bla bla bla sniff!) his words randomly strung together make as much sense as they do in context.
posted by ian1977 at 4:00 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Trump Bought $120,000 Luxury Trip With Trump Foundation Money At 2008 Charity Auction
At a glittering 2008 gala hosted by Gucci to benefit Madonna’s charity, Donald Trump bid more than $100,000 for a trip to Paris, earning him press from New York to London. But most of the money he used wasn’t his. It came from his foundation, to which he had donated just $30,000 that year.[...]

Copies of IRS tax disclosure forms from the Gucci Foundation and the Trump Foundation show Trump’s auction purchase in 2008. A $107,000 donation to the Gucci Foundation is listed on the “charitable contributions” page of the Trump Foundation’s form. The donation is the largest by far of any donation Trump made that year. The next closest is a $60,000 donation to the Everglades Foundation. Trump’s Foundation also did several disbursements that year for $50,000.

The 990 for the Gucci Foundation that year shows a $145,000 donation from the Trump Foundation. No personal money from Donald Trump is listed on the Gucci Foundation’s 990.

A Trump aide said the difference between the two amounts on two foundations’ 990s was because the Trump Foundation deducted the value of the trip and the price of the table at the event.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:01 PM on September 27, 2016 [29 favorites]


Today, I drove to Toledo with my partner, our child, and a friend to see Bill Clinton stump for Hillary. He opened with 'Did she have a good debate or what?' (video with iffy sound quality here)

After we returned home I received a phone call from my dad, who would be the very model of a Trump voter (white, suburban, HS education, comfortable income) were it not for his lifelong habit of voting for Libertarian Party candidates in the vast majority of presidential elections, with one-time exceptions for Reagan and Obama. He therefore considers himself to be an impartial observer of the American political scene. He asked whether I watched the debate, I said I had, then he said*
I THINK TRUMP VOTERS MUST BE THE MOST DELUSIONAL PEOPLE IN THE WHOLE GOD-DAMNED WORLD! SHE CLEANED HIS CLOCK! I MEAN, WHAT THE HELL AMERICA! GOD DAMN! SHE SAID THINGS I DIDN'T LIKE, SURE, BUT I DON'T THINK THE MAN COULD EVEN SAY A SENTENCE!
He went on at length from there, ranting about Trump's obvious, stupid lies about statements he made on video, his ridiculous and disrespectful lack of preparation for the most obvious questions/attacks, and how easily Clinton was able to goad him. There was never any chance that my dad would vote for Clinton, but I suspect his Trump-supporting friends are in for an earful.

*it was definitely in all-caps, trust me on this.
posted by palindromic at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2016 [89 favorites]


He's both a longtime abuser of pharmaceuticals and a fidgety blowhard misogynist! Por que no los dos?
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


I've mentioned this before, but my local Party City only had Trump masks last weekend. Not sure how well they were selling, but I wouldn't put much credit on mask sales as a reliable metric for predicting election results. If anything, dressing as Trump would seem much more appropriate for Halloween than dressing as Clinton.
posted by monospace at 4:02 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Todd Levin: More questions! #AmIWithHer #Worried #Undecided2016
More questions! What's that on her chest? A heart massager? Is it filled with pollen? And who's that guy behind her? Is he controlling her locomotion with that big device he's holding? Do arms go like that? Why is she smiling? CGI? Did someone digitally erase her steel "ambulation exoskeleton"?
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:09 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


NYT: I Muted Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton During the Debate. I Still Knew the Score.
Per instructions from my editor, I was watching with the sound off. Alone. No checking my email, no talking to my wife, no social media. It was, for me, a silent debate.

The idea was simple: to test the theory that what presidential candidates — in this instance, Hillary Clinton and Donald J. Trump — say during debates is less important than what they look like while they’re saying it.[...]

It will be no surprise to learn that Mr. Trump is loud even with the sound off. He delivered 90 minutes of increasingly exaggerated pantomime, announcing the presence of someone who is restless, impassioned, emphatic and at times belligerent. [...]

Even when it was Mrs. Clinton’s turn to speak, Mr. Trump couldn’t stand still. He fidgeted. He smirked. He grimaced. He squinted. He adjusted his microphone. He grabbed hold of the sides of his lectern. He rocked back and forth on his heels. He pursed his lips. He threw his opponent a disbelieving sidelong glance, and then an eye roll. He shook his head. He appeared to interrupt her, repeatedly. (On one occasion, I could make out a word — a word! — “wrong.”) He took a sip of water. And then another, licking his lips as he set the glass back down. He’s more expressive while listening than most people are while speaking.
He goes to write that as the debate continued, Donald became more and more agitated and Hillary became more giddy with real pleasure-- as though she was genuinely having fun-- until the famous shimmy which was the most telling moment of the whole debate; it signaled clearly who had won the debate.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:10 PM on September 27, 2016 [62 favorites]


Skimming through the transcript as I was too chicken shit to watch last night, and this wonderful little - I don't know, is it a portmanteau? - jumped out at me and I don't recall seeing it elsewhere:

seven and a half years to be semi- exact.

Semi-exact. I love it.
posted by nubs at 4:12 PM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oxymoron
posted by birdheist at 4:14 PM on September 27, 2016


I've mentioned this before, but my local Party City only had Trump masks last weekend.

Spencer's at my local mall had both Trump and Clinton masks

there was also a Clinton item with no Trump equivalent, that being a blow-up adult novelty doll

so

yeah
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:14 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]



Oxymoron


Yeah, that would be the semi-exact word for it.
posted by nubs at 4:15 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


re: Open Debates — what's with all the questions about term limits for congress? is it just some individual's obsession?
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trendsmap.com provides reports on hashtags for a fee. They show where tags start and how they spread around the world. According to various users of the service. #trumpwon started in St. Petersburg, Russia.
posted by humanfont at 4:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


This is how he's acted (minus the sniffing) at every campaign and primary appearance.

Somebody called into some radio show today (Diane Rehm?) and claimed he was exactly the same at his first teleprompter appearance. His theory was that he had been coached to breathe through his nose.

Plausible, but I don't remember him doing it before.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:20 PM on September 27, 2016


@ReutersPolitics: BREAKING: An estimated 84 million people watched Clinton-Trump debate on U.S. television, a new record - Nielsen

I saw a listing for the various internet sites like YouTube and Facebook which added several other million viewers so it was probably close to 90 million. 90 million people watching and Donald Trump chose to talk about Rosie O'Donnall.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:20 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


The Atlantic: Hillary Is Acting Like a Winner
It was Clinton’s first event after the first presidential debate Monday evening in Hempstead, New York. One sign of her confidence coming out of that encounter: As I approached the rally, a man asked for a hand loading a heavy box into his car. He was the teleprompter man, he said, but when he arrived in Raleigh, he’d been told that Clinton had decided to do without the prompter. He was turning around and heading back to Washington, D.C.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


98% of women unable to tell what moment debate started, rest of Monday stopped

The vast majority of the world's women say they had a very difficult time discerning what time the US presidential debate actually began last night, as it was far too similar in tone and style to everything else that had happened to them over the course of a typical Monday.
posted by nubs at 4:27 PM on September 27, 2016 [96 favorites]


The Atlantic: Hillary Is Acting Like a Winner

I haven’t read that article, but my reaction to that pull quote is that apparently this country still can’t decide if it’s acceptable for politicians to use TelePrompters.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:28 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


this country still can’t decide if it’s acceptable for politicians to use TelePrompters.

IOKIYAR
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]




Next debate Hillary should just ask, "Donald what do you think is actually in the Iran deal?"
posted by Talez at 4:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


One net positive out of this awful, endless election cycle is that it has been hugely instructive about how insidious and pervasive sexism truly is.
If you had asked me a year ago today if I'd considered myself someone that holds sexist views or attitudes I would have truthfully answered "of course not. " However, what I have learned this cycle is that sexism goes several levels deeper than overt misogyny and obvious or even subtle double-standards. It's a whole raft of things that once you start seeing you learn how to read. And once you learn how to read them you start seeing it all the time. Internalized misogyny is deeper and much more coded than what we generally think were talking about when we talk about sexism.
Regardless of how you feel about Clinton as a candidate its an important lesson we would all do well to learn about how we interpret the same actions from different sexes.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:43 PM on September 27, 2016 [90 favorites]


this country still can’t decide if it’s acceptable for politicians to use TelePrompters.

IOKIYAR

No, but see - earlier in the year, people were talking about how Trump needed to start getting on a TelePrompter, because he was saying all sorts of crazy things. Suddenly it was once again fine that HRC used a prompter, because it made her professional. But now - oho! A winner doesn’t need a prompter! What madness to use a script!
posted by Going To Maine at 4:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Really hoping Tim Kaine gets up there next week holding the FIX THIS NOW paper.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you're looking for a good hate-read, Scott Adams is being his usual creepy self in regards to the debates.
posted by My Dad at 4:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regardless of how you feel about Clinton as a candidate its an important lesson we would all do well to learn about how we interpret the same actions from different sexes.

Now try to retroactively apply those thoughts back to the Clinton / Obama primary…
posted by Going To Maine at 4:48 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm comfortable never encountering anything related to Scott Adams ever again.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:48 PM on September 27, 2016 [49 favorites]


If you're looking for a good hate-read,

Sure, I am a fan of that particular sport, do go on.

Scott Adams is -

Noooooope, bridge too far. Sorry.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 4:51 PM on September 27, 2016 [44 favorites]


Actually I think Hillary needs to ask "what's the real name of the Iran deal and which countries are signatories?"
posted by Talez at 4:53 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


But now - oho! A winner doesn’t need a prompter! What madness to use a script!

Eh. It's noteworthy because she's coming off the debate and her willingness to wing it today suggests confidence in her performance.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:53 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I just got the OpenDebate site to dump the question with the most votes - a weaselly piece of horseshit about "high-ranking officials" getting away with "careless" handling of classified info, when regular folks would be in jail for same. While it clearly skated past the immediate "violates guidelines" glance by not actually mentioning Clinton by name, it was nothing more than "LOCK HER UP" kinda-sorta posing as a question. When I pointed this out to the moderators of the site by email, they agreed and replied that they were taking it down within a couple of minutes.

Lord knows if any of the questions will actually make it to the debate, but let's not let some 4000 Trumpsters think they're pulling a fast one.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:11 PM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


She's holding regular press conferences, working without a TelePrompTer, while Trump hasn't held a press conference for 50+ days and has to use the TelePrompTer. Remember how this was such a big deal for Trumpsters when circumstances were reversed.
posted by humanfont at 5:14 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump on debate: I was 'holding back'

"Last night, when I debated Secretary Clinton on America's future, for 90 minutes, I watched her, very carefully and I was also holding back," Trump said during a rally at an airplane hanger in Melbourne, Fla. "I didn't want to do anything to embarrass her."
posted by chris24 at 5:16 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Loving the news and opinion pieces about mansplaining all over the media today.

A few years ago I used that term in a discussion with the man who was at that time my boss and he had never heard of it. I had to define it for him. He was mid-40s, from a plains state, had had kind of a meteoric career in IT on the coasts, is a principled conservative (who this year can't stand Trump) and who is, in general, more emotionally skilled than most managers I've ever had. I wasn't quite sure at the time whether he really bought my stuff about "mansplaining", but I'm betting he groks it now. He's not my boss any more so maybe I'll drop by and ask!
posted by Sublimity at 5:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump on debate: I was 'holding back'

"If I'd really wanted to win, I would have. Besides, the moderator was against me. Besides, the microphone wasn't working."
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:18 PM on September 27, 2016 [42 favorites]


Well how are you going to make America great again if you're too timid to embarrass your opponent, Donald?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 5:20 PM on September 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


98% of women unable to tell what moment debate started, rest of Monday stopped

From the article:

"At that point the debate started," Gagnon says. "By that I mean a lady in a red pantsuit took over for a bit. So that was nice of her."

Gagnon adds that a few minutes into the debate she had to politely ask the man at the bar to stop yelling about shit he knows nothing about because she was trying to listen to a man on TV yell about shit he knows nothing about.


No words for how much I love this. Mostly because I feel like I've been dealing with a particularly demoralizing strain of this kind of sexist garbage for the last couple of weeks at work and it's wearing me the fuck down and watching my day to day experience play out on the screen in front of me last night hit me on a really visceral level and made me want to curl up and cry all day today and at the same time I love Hillary even more fiercely for wading through it like a goddamn champ for most of her adult life because she gives me hope that it might get a little better for people like me. People who have neither her backbone nor her small army of supporters to offer some protection. It has to get better, right?
posted by triggerfinger at 5:23 PM on September 27, 2016 [42 favorites]


Time to start making the excuse bingo cards.
posted by cmfletcher at 5:23 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


It just occurred to me that Donald Trump's favorite sport is golf because players are supposed to always call their own penalties. He loves that "it's so easy to cheat you'd be an idiot NOT to" stuff
posted by theodolite at 5:24 PM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


"If I'd really wanted to win, I would have. Besides, the moderator was against me. Besides, the microphone wasn't working."

I ran out of gas! I got a flat tire! I didn’t have change for cab fare! I lost my tux at the cleaners! I locked my keys in the car! An old friend came in from out of town! Someone stole my car! There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:26 PM on September 27, 2016 [41 favorites]


Trump on debate: I was ‘holding back’

Donald Trump will never understand the sweet catharsis that comes from admitting failure and having a good cry. Not to himself, not to anyone. He is the apotheosis of a certain kind of masculinity, cracked and brittle. This isn’t to say that he’s unique - rather, because he’s so terrible at everything his fragility is highlighted and thrown into relief. Having crafted nothing else of value, he can only work harder and harder at enhancing his maleness. When that fails him, collapse.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:28 PM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]




Philip Bump at The Washington Post / The Fix: “That viral image showing #TrumpWon starting in Russia is fake”
posted by Going To Maine at 5:33 PM on September 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump on debate: I was 'holding back'

This is not what holding back looks like.
posted by peeedro at 5:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


It just occurred to me that Donald Trump's favorite sport is golf because players are supposed to always call their own penalties. He loves that "it's so easy to cheat you'd be an idiot NOT to" stuff

I have a friend who is from Michigan, country club Republican, terrific golfer. He's a member at BelAir, the fancy golf club in West LA, and I guess Trump is a member, too, or a frequent guest, but whatever, nobody wants to play with him because he cheats. At golf. He cheats at golf. My friend was unlikely to vote for Trump in any case (see, CC Republican), but Trump's antics on the course seal it for him.

Golf. He cheats at golf.
posted by notyou at 5:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [49 favorites]


Two quick things, from a conversation today:

- Clinton had psychologists in for her debate prep, and there were things she did in the opening minutes that resemble how clinical professionals use narcissistic injury in diagnostic tests for narcissistic personality disorder. (The 'I was holding back' postmortem and recapitulation fits in too.)

- Trump's nonverbals are obvious to those trained to look for them: there were times when Clinton was saying something contrary to his stated beliefs, and he was nodding along apparently subconsciously.
posted by holgate at 5:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [32 favorites]


Golf. He cheats at golf.

I'm betting he cheats at solitaire.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:40 PM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


@SopanDeb: Trump in Melbourne: "Where is the fire marshal?! Fire marshal, let em in please. Okay? Let em’ in. Let em’ in, fire marshal! Let em’ in! "

I guess he needs to replay the old favorites.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:41 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


The issue has been extensively researched:

Does Donald Trump cheat at golf? A Washington Post investigation (September 2015)
Gawker: A Brief History of Accusations That Donald Trump Cheats at Golf (May 2016)
posted by zachlipton at 5:43 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


WaPo: Republicans frustrated over perceived missed opportunities for Trump at debate
Speaking Tuesday morning, Trump knocked Holt for the way he handled the role of moderator.

“Well, he didn’t ask her about the emails at all. He didn’t ask her about her scandals. He didn’t ask her about the Benghazi deal that she destroyed,” Trump said on Fox News. “He didn’t ask her about a lot of things that she should have been asked about. I mean, there’s no question about it. He didn’t ask her about her foundation. Why? I don’t know.”
Benghazi deal that she destroyed? Wut? Wut is this?

The rest of the article is all the whining by the Republicans who support Trump because Hillary didn't get smeared with all this mud they have stockpiled ready to throw at her.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


nodding along apparently subconsciously.

So Donnie is smart enough to realize one must be a liar to be a politician but not smart enough to realize one must be a good liar.
posted by vrakatar at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I give it no more than 24 hours until he adds "the dog ate my homework" to his excuses.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:47 PM on September 27, 2016


Trump and his "I'm holding back" reminds me of this raucous house party I had once where a fight started in the kitchen, went through the house, off the front porch, and onto the front yard. It ended with my friend Mark sitting on top of the guy no one knew who had started the whole thing, and who then proceeded to gasp, "Let me up so I can kick your ass!!" Oh, how we still laugh.
posted by thebrokedown at 5:48 PM on September 27, 2016 [17 favorites]




Benghazi deal that she destroyed? Wut? Wut is this?

He misspeaks a lot. Like, if he were my relative, I'd start planning for the time when I'd need a power of attorney.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:49 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


So what were the things Hillary did in the beginning? And what do Trump's nonverbals say?
posted by gucci mane at 5:50 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


So Donnie is smart enough to realize one must be a liar to be a politician but not smart enough to realize one must be a good liar.

Yeah! Being a bad liar is only enough to get the nomination of one of two major political parties!
posted by Going To Maine at 5:53 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm no expert but his body language says nervous and afraid and desperately wants to be seen as smart and classy, but knows he's dumb and vulgar, can't reconcile the fantasy with the reality, so can not entertain more than one concept at a time.
posted by vrakatar at 5:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


“The worst celebrity golf cheat?” the rock star Alice Cooper said in a 2012 interview with Q magazine. “I wish I could tell you that. It would be a shocker. I played with Donald Trump one time. That’s all I’m going to say.”

Let us savor this image.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:56 PM on September 27, 2016 [48 favorites]



Philip Bump at The Washington Post / The Fix: “That viral image showing #TrumpWon starting in Russia is fake”


but the fact that a literal russian stooge who's cool with disbanding NATO is the republican nominee is oh so very real and i just look at that fact and shake my head real slow
posted by Sebmojo at 5:56 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Being a bad liar is only enough to get the nomination of one of two major political parties!
And ONLY one of them. That's what he learned from the multiple times he changed parties in his voter registration.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:56 PM on September 27, 2016


Aye lad, but that party- the GOP- has been out of ideas since... I dunno decades probably. That enabled his nomination. He's not a political phenom, he's the bottom of the barrel.
posted by vrakatar at 5:58 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


The fascinating--and sadly telling--thing has been watching a bunch of men get totally angry about the term "mansplaining"and how "sexist" it is today rather than, you know, understanding last night as a perfect example.
posted by TwoStride at 5:58 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trendsmap.com provides reports on hashtags for a fee. They show where tags start and how they spread around the world. According to various users of the service. #trumpwon started in St. Petersburg, Russia.

But how does trendsmap geolocate tweets? As far as I know Twitter doesn't reveal a tweet's IP source, so unless the tweeter has geotagged their tweet or included region info in their tweet/profile, it should be impossible to determine the origin.
posted by ymgve at 5:59 PM on September 27, 2016


So what were the things Hillary did in the beginning?

Paraphrased from this tumblr post: she called him Donald right from the start, which reminds everyone that he doesn't have a fancy title, implies a familiarity he would inevitably bristle at, and most importantly, denies the power of his Trump brand. At just about every step, she baited him perfectly, bringing up things she knew he would be proud of but that would play as unsympathetic with a lot of voters.
posted by yasaman at 5:59 PM on September 27, 2016 [51 favorites]


And not even 'The Donald'. Just 'donald'. Probably with a lowercase 'd'.
posted by mazola at 6:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


It is perfectly possible to run a country through charitable giving. You just end up donating money to Our Lady of Off-Ramp 12, and The Holy Order of the 15th Finance Battalion, Fort Hood. Done.
posted by um at 6:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


The fascinating--and sadly telling--thing has been watching a bunch of men get totally angry about the term "mansplaining"and how "sexist" it is today rather than, you know, understanding last night as a perfect example.

Or, alternately, to see a bunch of feminists suddenly gleefully advocate for how their candidate used a tactic that they would in other contexts consider to be unfair and silencing in order to win a debate - as opposed to, you know, just talk about how she won the debate by doing a good job.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:05 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Golf. He cheats at golf.

I'm betting he cheats at solitaire.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:40 PM

One of my all time favorite scenes in any movie is in The Cincinnati Kid (and if you've never seen it, give at chance-- I think it is very underrated.) Ann-Margaret who cheats at everything is discovered sitting on the floor cutting up the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle to make them fit. And her husband, Karl Malden, just stands there, shaking his head, looking at her with disbelief.



@SaraMurray:
Trump reiterates his support for stop and frisk, saying "overwhelmingly this will save African American and Hispanic lives."

IF Donald Trump really wanted to be a politician he would talk to people in the Afican American communities that he loves to slam and ask them how they feel about stop and frisk. He would also ask people in the justice department and the cops. Then he would look at the records in NYPD to see if that really worked. He will never bother to do any of those things. He just wants people to vote for him, he doesn't want to do the work.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


The way she greeted Donald sorta kinda reminded me of 'hello...Newman!'
posted by ian1977 at 6:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I've been following the thread reasonably closely, but I do have a life. Has anyone brought up his unctuous and obnoxious "Secretary Clinton, is that OK? Good. I want you to be very happy. It’s very important to me". That's classic abuser crap right there.
posted by mollweide at 6:14 PM on September 27, 2016 [78 favorites]


WaPo: Clinton to score another GOP endorsement: former senator John Warner of Virginia
Warner’s decision not to support his party’s nominee, Donald Trump, is intended to send a signal in the five-term senator’s battleground home state and beyond that mainstream, security-minded Republicans should side with Clinton.

Virginia is an important, military-rich state that both candidates see as essential to winning the White House as the race tightens nationally. Clinton is making a pitch across the country that she is the more seasoned and responsible candidate on military and national security issues.[...]
Warner is planning to make his endorsement official at an event in Alexandria with Sen. Tim Kaine (Va.), Clinton’s running mate, the Clinton aide said.
The event is Wednesday and is supposed to focus on military issues.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:15 PM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


Haha time for Trump to pull all advertising from VA. Oh wait he doesn't have any advertising.
posted by vuron at 6:18 PM on September 27, 2016


I've been following the thread reasonably closely, but I do have a life. Has anyone brought up his unctuous and obnoxious "Secretary Clinton, is that OK? Good. I want you to be very happy. It’s very important to me". That's classic abuser crap right there.

I felt like that was him trying to get credit for not calling her Crooked Hillary
posted by zutalors! at 6:18 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


There's already a sexy Trump costume on the market. Meet Donna T. Rumpshaker.

i may never cyber again
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:18 PM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


Wow:

Since The Arizona Republic began publication in 1890, we have never endorsed a Democrat over a Republican for president. Never. This reflects a deep philosophical appreciation for conservative ideals and Republican principles.

This year is different.

The 2016 Republican candidate is not conservative and he is not qualified.

That’s why, for the first time in our history, The Arizona Republic will support a Democrat for president.

posted by showbiz_liz at 6:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [103 favorites]


I've been following the thread reasonably closely, but I do have a life. Has anyone brought up his unctuous and obnoxious "Secretary Clinton, is that OK? Good. I want you to be very happy. It’s very important to me". That's classic abuser crap right there.

He makes everyone in real life call him Mr. Trump or Donald J. Trump-- never Donald so I think he was trying to cow her into speaking to him in his preferred way but she chose to ignore that and called him Donald all night.

He was back to calling her crooked Hillary at his rally today, though. Crooked woman, crooked Hillary over and over. I think he wanted to call her that last night but his handlers made him promise not to.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:19 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


I've been following the thread reasonably closely, but I do have a life. Has anyone brought up his unctuous and obnoxious "Secretary Clinton, is that OK? Good. I want you to be very happy. It’s very important to me". That's classic abuser crap right there.

I also think he thought he was getting a jab in by calling her "Secretary" -- he was imagining a 1970s movie cliche of a secretary as a subservient woman who was probably sleeping with her boss.

But instead he just pointed out over and over that she has a title and he's just "Donald".
posted by mmoncur at 6:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [19 favorites]


Whoa that endorsement of Clinton and rebuke of Trump by the Arizona Republic is brutal. I am wondering if the wheels finally came off the Trump bus.

Lose an election but persevere the Republican party and conservative principles. Republicans are in triage mode and Trump is the disease
posted by vuron at 6:25 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]



I also think he thought he was getting a jab in by calling her "Secretary" -- he was imagining a 1970s movie cliche of a secretary as a subservient woman who was probably sleeping with her boss.


I really don't think that's true - "Secretary Holloway" wasn't a thing people said ever. I think he understands the title associated with her former office.
posted by zutalors! at 6:26 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


So what were the things Hillary did in the beginning?

Title, yes, but also tapping at his sense of self to see where the cracks start to appear. Talking about the loan from his father, which challenges his foundational story, his big myth. "You live in your own reality." "Maybe he's not as rich as he says he is."

In essence: you're not special, you're not better than us, and you've been found out.
posted by holgate at 6:28 PM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


The fascinating--and sadly telling--thing has been watching a bunch of men get totally angry about the term "mansplaining"and how "sexist" it is today rather than, you know, understanding last night as a perfect example.

it's a sexist generalisation, it just happens to be an accurate one made about someone who's repugnant. it's a poor hill to die on imo.
posted by Sebmojo at 6:29 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am wondering if the wheels finally came off the Trump bus.

Surely this will spell the end of the Trump candidacy.
posted by Justinian at 6:29 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


I really don't think that's true - "Secretary Holloway" wasn't a thing people said ever. I think he understands the title associated with her former office.

zutalors!, I'd like to think that's true, but I really just have no idea when it comes to Trump.
posted by mollweide at 6:30 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think it's likely he was coached carefully on how to refer to her to avoid looking like a bully or looking condescending, and his team told him to call her Secretary Clinton.

I also think he's such an insecure, immature ass that he couldn't handle giving a woman an actual title of respect without making some kind of snide comment about it. That was probably the moment his campaign staff started drinking.
posted by invincible summer at 6:32 PM on September 27, 2016 [39 favorites]


I'm still waiting for some post-debate national or state polls before feeling great. Sure it was a great debate for Clinton but I want to see those polling averages moving before the JCPL settles down any lower. Some decent news out of Pennsylvania, Colorado, and/or Florida would help too.
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


There is also this- donnie's team is thin to begin with, and everytime something goes badly for them, he'll get harder to work with, people will leave, and we will see more SEZ WHO moments. And continue to lag in fundraising and ground game. There is no person on earth who can fix his campaign.
posted by vrakatar at 6:35 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Or, alternately, to see a bunch of feminists suddenly gleefully advocate for how their candidate used a tactic that they would in other contexts consider to be unfair and silencing in order to win a debate - as opposed to, you know, just talk about how she won the debate by doing a good job.

I disagree.

Hillary wasn't being condescending to Trump by explaining things to him like he was in fourth grade. I believe she genuinely believes that is the sum total of his learning abilities, and I agree with her.

If anything, Womansplaining is Mansplaning to someone who is actually an idiot, instead of just treating them like they are. The outside behaviors are identical, it's the intention and the behavior of the intended target that are different.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:36 PM on September 27, 2016 [30 favorites]


Speaking of campaign staff we're right about due for another shakeup. How much you want to bet Kellyanne is gone by Friday?
posted by Tevin at 6:36 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


My current question is whether the debate is going to cause another split on strategy between Trump and his team. We've seen in the past that his pattern is to take their advice while things are going well, but when the tables turn, he starts to look for ways out so he can play it his way again. Will he realize that his problem was in how he implemented his plan, or will he revert to form and blame the outcome on the team who came up with it? If he decides to go his own way again and to focus on the "crooked Hillary/Bill cheated" etc angles in round 2, who knows where that could lead. There isn't much upside in terms of winning over new voters and he can easily talk himself way out onto a limb with that subject matter. We saw that Clinton isn't afraid to cut the branch once he's done so. It's one thing to have a disembodied audience laugh at you from out of the dark but another thing entirely to have a crowd of people laughing at you to your face in plain sight. I wonder what, if anything, him and his surrogates will be saying about his prep for the next round.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I think the "I want to make sure you're very happy" part was the sexist part, not "Secretary Clinton." I'm not giving him any credit here, i just think him misunderstanding the title Secretary is silly fanfic.
posted by zutalors! at 6:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [16 favorites]


How much you want to bet Kellyanne is gone by Friday?

I am really curious about this as well, because it is for sure what you'd expect, but she appears to basically be the only thing holding his campaign together at this point. I can't see anyone else on his campaign meeting her standard of spin (not endorsing her candidate by any means, but she is clearly very good at her job). It feels like the kind of thing that would happen next at this point but if it does, I think it'd be hard to see it as anything other than a capitulation and would likely renew panic about downballot races across the GOP.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:41 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rolling Stone: Trump Slunk Under the Lowest of Low Bars at the Debate
Trump looked incompetent because he's no longer only standing next to other Republicans.

Aside from the repugnant racism, xenophobia and misogyny, the Trump phenomenon remained amusing for months because it felt like it was engineered in some fouler deity's ironic punishment laboratory. Donald Trump flagrantly made shit up every moment he wasn't bullying everyone around him; it's just that his victims were a bunch of wealthy bullies who'd spent their careers haphazardly making shit up and sliming their way upward like a phalanx of slugs conquering a staircase.

Trump cut through over a dozen Republican candidates like an industrial saw shredding a box of Kleenex, and it couldn't have happened to a more dismal gallery of frauds. After years of complaining about deficits while promoting tax cuts that reduced government revenues by trillions, after years of promoting dominionist Christianity while claiming religious discrimination, after years of claiming to be victims while blaming everything wrong in America on homosexuals and college professors and minorities and Islam, after years of saying whatever the fuck they felt like and repeating it until it sounded true, each one of these blow-dried mediocrities got fired from The Apprentice: Republican Party by someone with even more sociopathic contempt for facts, logical consistency and other human beings than they had.

Hell, it wasn't even difficult. Just coming up with mean nicknames was enough on a stage teeming with their brand of puffed-up prevaricating nincompoopery. Donald Trump wasn't a legendary force, and he wasn't a ruthless killer. He was the only guy with a fork in a room full of inflatable clown punching bags – shoving them and waiting for them to rock back and forth, their fixed idiotic grins leaning into the fatal puncture.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [106 favorites]


Atticus Review: The Dead and The Dying From The First Presidential Debate
Is that what we were so afraid of?

This bloated bully incapable of stringing together so much as a single coherent thought was the monster we’ve all feared?

By the end of Monday night’s festivities, it was more than apparent that two people were standing on the stage at Hofstra University and only one of them was up to the job of President of the United States. Hillary Clinton, a professional politician and seasoned veteran of debates, summarily throttled Donald Trump and beat him within an inch of his political life, thus shoving the greatest bully in modern electoral history’s face in the dirt and burying any doubt that she wasn’t up to the task.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


she is clearly very good at her job

no, I still think she is garbage at her job.
posted by zutalors! at 6:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Anderson Cooper is interviewing Alicia Machado right now. It's tremendous. She started off rambling a bit and not letting him get a word in edgewise. I think she just admitted to driving the getaway car in an attempted murder by saying, "everyone has a past." He has no control over this interview. But I think she comes off really well.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Phalanx of slugs is a phrase I want on my obit
posted by dis_integration at 6:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


no, I still think she is garbage at her job

If you value finding the truth or some greater truth-related good, for sure, if you value dodging questions, from what I've seen she's pretty much teflon.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:48 PM on September 27, 2016


Yeah, I'd prefer it if someone who just became a centerpiece of the campaign wasn't an accessory to murder though. Even if sexism against accessories to murder is just as bad as sexism against anybody else.
posted by Justinian at 6:49 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]




no, I still think she is garbage at her job

If you value finding the truth or some greater truth-related good, for sure, if you value dodging questions, from what I've seen she's pretty much teflon


I don't think a campaign manager's job is "dodging questions" as much as, you know, managing the campaign.
posted by zutalors! at 6:50 PM on September 27, 2016


I don't know about firing Conway but there is this

@CostaReports: There is a movement afoot by at least 2 Trump allies to bring Ailes more into the process but reluctance among others to do so, per sources

It might be that Conway is the one who is reluctant. I can't believe that monster is affliated at all with a Presidential campaign. Somebody who has sexually harassed women for decades-- to the point of telling them they would have to sleep with him AND his friends-- should be shunned and left to die a lonely, penniless death. But, no, this is what the Trump campaign is really good at, finding the worst people in politics and hiring them.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:52 PM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


Totally agree if they were running a normal campaign. I seriously doubt that's the case. I'm pretty content to leave it at this, though.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:52 PM on September 27, 2016


All this talk about the title Secretary reminds me of Secretary Robert Rich's book Locked in the Cabinet. He first relates the tale of getting his mandated drug test (read the whole thing):
"Federal rek-u-la-tion. Drug test. Can't even be in te cabinet vit-out havink your pee looked at. Quite a country we haf, isn't it?" He laughs, opening the door to the bathroom before ushering me in. "Everyone's got to pee for te government, no matter who. Tot's what I luf about tis country. Everyone's a pisher."
And then soon finds himself in the employee cafeteria, having closed down the executive dining room ("No executives are here yet, so who's to complain?"). Waiting in line, he meets Gladys (typos are transcription errors):
“Hello!” An elderly woman in front of me wants to start a conversation. She’s obviously thrilled to be in line next to the new Secretary of Labor.
“Hello, and what’s your name?” I ask.
“Gladys.” Gladys is almost as short as I am.
“And what do you do at the department, Gladys?”
“I work in correspondence. And what’s your name?” Gladys asks sweetly.
Gladys has probably never met a secretary of labor in all her years with the department. Surely she’s never seen one standing in the cashier line. They’ve always lunched in the executive dining room.
“Robert Reich,” I say, grinning.
Gladys brightens. “Very nice to make your acquaintance, Robert. And how long have you been working here at the department?”
“Only a few weeks.”
“Oh, you’ll like it,” Gladys says, reassuringly. “Nice people, nice atmosphere. And what do you do here?”
“I’m, er, Secretary,” I say, a bit nonplussed. Doesn’t she know?
“Secretary?” she asks innocently. “To whom?”
“The President ”
“Secretary to the President! My, that sounds interesting.” Gladys’s beatific smile remains unchanged. “I hope you enjoy it. Nice to meet you, Robert.” She turns to the cashier, who is finally ready to weigh her salad.
posted by zachlipton at 6:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [30 favorites]


> I don't think a campaign manager's job is "dodging questions" as much as, you know, managing the campaign.

This is based on the assumption that there is something to be managed.

Trump's campaign is a poorly maintained website, a shitty email list that keeps violating FEC laws by soliciting international donations, and a way to funnel money into his account.

Pretty much this guy hires people who he runs into at dinner parties that make him feel smart, and asks them to do jobs they are wildly unqualified to even know how to do.

When Breitbart is your most savvy political mover, you have a problem.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:55 PM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm just saying Kellyanne Conway is not "good at her job." She's doesn't appear to be doing anything but going on TV and grinning and getting people like Rachel Maddow to help her normalize the monstrosity. At that she's succeeding, sure, but I'm really sick of Trump's low bar.
posted by zutalors! at 6:58 PM on September 27, 2016


Atticus Review: The Dead and The Dying From The First Presidential Debate

Is that what we were so afraid of?


I still am, yes. Still so very afraid.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:00 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


Campaign managers are essentially the campaigning equivalent of public relations directors. Dodging questions is an integral part of their jobs.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:01 PM on September 27, 2016


When I say the wheels look like they are coming off it's based upon the fact that Trump needed to make up ground with the debates. He needed to look presidential so that people that are turned off by him will go ahead and hold their nose and push the button.

The campaign thus far has shown that Trump simply can't rise above the low 40s. It's his zenith in terms of electability. And the polling has shown that even when he's been having a good week and Clinton has been having a bad week he can't narrow the gap in national polling or in the electoral congress.

That's really bad news because he's running out of time to introduce a new Donald to America. Trying to do it with advertising is doomed to failure because he'll be trying to spin a story that he's a good guy and endless attack ads will be using his own words against him. He had 3 shots to present himself as competent and likable and he wasted opportunity 1 and more problematic for him he's given Clinton at least a week of good news coverage which means she'll be back up to the usual 4-5 point national polling differential.

For someone that is needing to close the gap it's really problematic to be in his position. What's interesting is that it's more or less the opposite of his experiences in the primaries where he got an early lead and nobody was able to close the gap despite the majority of his party loathing him.

I'm not going to go so far as to say he's done for but he definitely is bleeding from several self-inflicted gunshots and it's hard to see how a town hall and another debate will somehow change the narrative.

Clinton's pretty much all out of scandals but Trump has like a zillion skeletons in closet looking like they could come out at any moment.
posted by vuron at 7:01 PM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


Speaking of campaign staff we're right about due for another shakeup. How much you want to bet Kellyanne is gone by Friday?

At this stage of the game, such a move would trigger mass defections among his donors, most of whom are only supporting him on the condition that he (mostly) sticks to the script.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:02 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, I honestly believe that the Trump campaign (or cohort) still believes they have a chance at this election. They live in such an isolationist bubble of privilege, classism, and racism that they assume secretly that there is a silent majority waiting for them to take hold of power, who will rise up as part of this election campaign.

Thats why Trump is digger deeper it feels like - his base is all he needs. Trump feels like he's hidden his racist feelings (mostly) and that there must be millions of people out there like him, waiting for their moment to act. That train of thought follows his theme of delusional narcissism - he is always right, he is the best of his kind of person, therefore other people will flock to him for all of his traits.

It is sad really. He might not even be pushing the election fraud thing out of a "this is a strategy that will ensure we win" mindset, but the idea that "there is no way 28% of this country is Non White, there can't be enough minorities for whom I offended for it to really matter, therefore the only way I loose is if they all vote multiple times."

Which is really the center of the racist ideology really: that non whites are less than white, their voices count less, their vote should count less. They are literally not worth contemplating as a threat in 'fair play', so therefore the only way they could be a threat is if they cheat.

For a long time I thought "holding racist ideas" was part of his character. Now I realize he is literally a walking talking Classist Racist Misogynist.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


When Breitbart is your most savvy political mover, you have a problem.
When Breitbart is the most savvy political mover for a candidate who still has a chance of being elected President, we ALL have a problem.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [67 favorites]


Deep-pocketed donors, that is.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:03 PM on September 27, 2016


Also, consider that it is in the Trump Campaign's interest that the bar remain as low as possible. In fact, if they're any good at all, surely they are trying very hard to keep it that way.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump cut through over a dozen Republican candidates like an industrial saw shredding a box of Kleenex
I believe the phrase is "like shit through a cranebrake."
posted by octobersurprise at 7:05 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Because this would be the absolutely worst time for him to have another shakeup is pretty much the reason why I think he will have one, because he is completely and utterly incompetent and apt to do that sort of thing.
posted by Tevin at 7:08 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


'Success' for Trump's campaign manager means making sure that that Trump doesn't literally punt a live squalling baby across the the room, drop his pants and then eat a puppy sandwich on camera. The bar is so low that it has dissolved in the Earth's moltern core.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:09 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


> Clinton's pretty much all out of scandals but Trump has like a zillion skeletons in closet looking like they could come out at any moment.


I wonder if each debate will have a Alicia Machado moment, or they up the ante. Two ads next time, then three at the end. Maybe a similar thing for Pence.

Honestly, I'm surprised in hindsight that the Trump campaign didn't even really have any close talking points to script to him to run with an ad around it. I mean, maybe they did, and they scrapped it cause he fucked up the delivery or something.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:10 PM on September 27, 2016


I play golf, and I enjoy it (golf *culture* is another story), and people who cheat drive me crazy. I'm not talking about the occasional foot wedge or other little things that most of us hackers do, but people who flat-out lie about their score or take as many mulligans as they feel like and shit like that. Because ultimately the game is you versus yourself, and if you can't even play fair with yourself what true satisfaction can you get out of it?
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:12 PM on September 27, 2016 [24 favorites]


I don't think a campaign manager's job is "dodging questions" as much as, you know, managing the campaign.

Not all campaign managers take on the role, but for one David Axelrod acted as PR during Obama's campaign and frequently appeared on cable news. Conway in my recollection has a history of PR for the GOP that is equally dishonest and dodging as anything she's done on behalf of Trump, but I am not really on her side, so I'm likely biased somewhat.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:12 PM on September 27, 2016


I don't see him backing out of the other debates because that would leave him branded as The Loser. He needs to try and make up for that botched job. Unfortunately for him I don't think the Townhall is going to work out for him. Remember how he handled the question in the Commander-in-Chief Townhall by the vet asking about suicides? He corrected her statistic (wrongly as it turned out.)

He spends all of his time acting like the Big Alpha Male to his staff and speaking at rallies to large crowds. He is going to be shit at talking one-on-one to members of the public. Plus if they ask anything substantive he will spew out his unintelligible word salad. I predict his style and mannerisms will come off as unpleasant and his answers will be gaffes, lies, and bizarre nonsense.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:12 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell is full of calm indignation as usual and will have David Farenholdt on tonight
posted by zutalors! at 7:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


> I predict his style and mannerisms will come off as unpleasant and his answers will be gaffes, lies, and bizarre nonsense.

I predict atleast a 'I have nothing for them' level response or reaction. His body language is going to be terrible during the townhall.

And what will be great is Hillary will be able to show how well she connects with people one on one, directly answering the question. That exchange (or exchanges) will be like Bill's debate moment in 1992. But imagine instead of Bush Sr.'s unmotivating stiffness, Trump's incoherent rambling and facial expressions. And while Hillary might not have the same response as Bill's, it will be entirely more human, endearing and sincere by contrast.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:20 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


"The worst celebrity golf cheat?” the rock star Alice Cooper said in a 2012 interview with Q magazine. “I wish I could tell you that. It would be a shocker. I played with Donald Trump one time. That’s all I’m going to say.”

Wait wait wait hold up did Alice Cooper have to sign an NDA after his golf game with Trump?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:20 PM on September 27, 2016 [47 favorites]


I'm still trying to understand this thing about Alicia Machado allegedly driving the getaway car in an attempted murder. Because my eyes sort of glossed over and and then wait wait what? Is there anything on this that comes from a source more reliable than the Daily Mail?
posted by zachlipton at 7:23 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


I actually wonder if Clinton wasn't holding back a little bit, in this first debate. Trump was something of an unknown quantity, a bizarre and unconventional threat, and I can't help but imagine that her campaign must have been crossing their fingers a little bit going into this debate, hoping their carefully-crafted plan would pay off.

It makes sense to me that they would have been hedging a little bit, playing it safe, not wanting to overplay their hand in case Donald turned out to be crazy like a fox instead of just crazy. Hillary had a great night, so they now have empirical evidence that yup, that's all there is, and they now know how to push him and goad him and get him to react in ways that look really bad for him.

I hope in the next round, Hillary her team feel free to let her be more aggressive. I think she's drawn blood and now she should go in for the kill, so to speak. Trump is vulnerable, and she knows how to hurt him in a debate.

While I'm thinking about strategy (thinking aloud is basically all this comment is) her campaign obviously also needs to press the attack in the media for as long as they can. The longer they can keep her win in the news the better, and she can also take some time fleshing out some of the points she sketched during the debate. She tried out dozens of new talking points, many of them direct attacks on Donald, and some of them clearly resonated. She and her people need to be hammering on those points over and over and in as many different ways as possible.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:29 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


DONALD TRUMP: ... Almost every lawyer says you don't release your return until the audit is complete. When the audit is complete I will do it. But I would go against them if she releases her emails.
LESTER HOLT: So it's negotiable?
DONALD TRUMP: It's not negotiable. No, let her release her emails. [real]
DONALD TRUMP: I will release my tax returns if Secretary Clinton releases the 33,000 deleted emails.
HILLARY CLINTON: I've got some really funny email forwards I could send you instead.
DONALD TRUMP: What do you think I am?
HILLARY CLINTON: We’ve already established what you are, Donald. Now we’re just haggling over the price. [fake]
posted by metaphorever at 7:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [25 favorites]


Chaz Ebert, someone who knows what it's like to have a more famous husband, writes the best endorsement of Hillary that I've read so far this season.
posted by octothorpe at 7:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


I actually wonder if Clinton wasn't holding back a little bit, in this first debate.

I hope she was holding back something along the lines of "A woman can't be summarized by the deeds or misdeeds of her husband." I'd really like her to get that out there. Trump tried to hammer her on Bill's push for NAFTA, and he threatened to go after her over Bill's dalliances. I hope she nopes that shit in the bud.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:33 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


i wonder what it is with these people. it's like some viral brain infection or something. i've known this guy since high school and he is like a dog with a bone. i had to unfollow his ass. ben gazzi this. ben gazzi that. 'who cares if trump pays no taxes, at the worst he'll just pay it back but that bitch can never pay back the men she left to die at ben gazzi.' ben gazzi never forget. come on down to ben gazzi ford lincoln mercury. i'm done with it.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:38 PM on September 27, 2016 [37 favorites]


"A woman can't be summarized by the deeds or misdeeds of her husband."

"You want me to tell you what my husband thinks? My husband is not the Secretary of State, I am. You ask my opinion. I will tell you my opinion; I'm not going to channel my husband."

[real, 2009]
posted by zutalors! at 7:38 PM on September 27, 2016 [97 favorites]


There is a movement afoot by at least 2 Trump allies to bring Ailes more into the process

Donald Trump: From the people who brought you Richard Nixon™
posted by mbrubeck at 7:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


In 1998 her then boyfriend murdered someone in Venezuela. She was never charged as an accessory, but the judge thought she was involved and claimed she used her political connections to get out of it. Also she may have had a relationship with a drug lord in 2005, but nothing was ever proven and she was never charged. The evidence suggests that like many women she has dated some real losers.
posted by humanfont at 7:40 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


A Ben Gazzi and a Vincent Foster.

Emails! Emails! We all fall down.
posted by Yowser at 7:41 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I take exception to the idea that Hillary's husband is more famous than she is. For this moment—and if she wins in November then forever—Bill Clinton is no more than a prologue to Hillary. Think on that.

And yes, I keep waiting for her to say "I am not my husband. I am not responsible for his actions, we are two different people."
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


In 1998 her then boyfriend murdered someone in Venezuela. She was never charged as an accessory, but the judge thought she was involved and claimed she used her political connections to get out of it. Also she may have had a relationship with a drug lord in 2005

I guess you go to war with the fatshamed former beauty contestants you have and not the fatshamed former beauty contestands you wish you had.
posted by Justinian at 7:43 PM on September 27, 2016 [56 favorites]


"You want me to tell you what my husband thinks? My husband is not the Secretary of State, I am. You ask my opinion. I will tell you my opinion; I'm not going to channel my husband."

Such a missed opportunity to Hamilton that.

I know that Donald J Trump is standing here and he
Would rather not have this debate
I’ll remind you that he is not Secretary of State
He knows nothing of loyalty
Smells like conned money, dresses like fake royalty
Desperate to rise above his station
Everything he does betrays the ideals of our nation

posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:44 PM on September 27, 2016 [36 favorites]


She also cheated on Bobby Abreu on a Spanish reality show, but that's irrelevant to Trump being a sexist dickbag.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]



I take exception to the idea that Hillary's husband is more famous than she is


I can't think of any American political figure - man or woman - who has been famous on the world stage as long as HRC has.
posted by zutalors! at 7:45 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kissinger?
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:46 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Right, she could have shot somebody in the face and it would still be irrelevant to Trump being a sexist dickbag. And she could be Vice President.
posted by Justinian at 7:47 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


they assume secretly that there is a silent majority waiting for them to take hold of power

There may be white non-voters that they think can be brought to the polls. (Registration isn't showing a GOP surge in states where there's party affiliation, but they may already be registered.) But that requires a proper data and GOTV operation, and all signs still point to them outsourcing that stuff to the RNC and state parties, and you can't spin that stuff up from scratch in October.
posted by holgate at 7:47 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


> Emails! Emails! We all fall down.

Yeah, that 'ring around the posies' thing is really morbid when you dig deeper into it.

/creepy children trivializing terrible epidemiological diseases
//just-in-case: the idea of people believing that the email thing is a thing is the caution/phenomenon here
///i'd make a terrible dad
posted by porpoise at 7:49 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


showbiz_liz: That’s why, for the first time in our history, The Arizona Republic will support a Democrat for president.

My favorite line in that amazing (in context) endorsement is, "Instead of offering solutions, he hangs scapegoats like piñatas and invites people to take a swing."
posted by Superplin at 7:50 PM on September 27, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think at this point Bill and Hillary are equally famous (especially given that I doubt very many people know one and not the other). She will soon be more important than him, however, at least hopefully for the next 8 years.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:54 PM on September 27, 2016




"You want me to tell you what my husband thinks? My husband is not the Secretary of State."

She was quoting Hamilton.
posted by rokusan at 7:57 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think at this point Bill and Hillary are equally famous (especially given that I doubt very many people know one and not the other).

apparently little girls on the campaign trail are asking Hillary if she has a husband.
posted by zutalors! at 7:58 PM on September 27, 2016 [94 favorites]


apparently little girls on the campaign trail are asking Hillary if she has a husband.

OK, thats a fair point. To anyone over, maybe, 30 or so they're equally famous. For younger people, especially children, I assume she beats him handily :)
posted by thefoxgod at 8:00 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wasn't arguing with you, thefoxgood, I just love that so much. So much.
posted by zutalors! at 8:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [11 favorites]


I bet Bill is tickled that little girls ask Hillary if she has a husband.
posted by R343L at 8:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [21 favorites]


I hope she shows them a video and says "See that guy playing with the balloons?"
posted by mmoncur at 8:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [76 favorites]


When I heard Clinton say this I suddenly realised: she is the conservative candidate.
Words matter when you run for president. And they really matter when you are president. And I want to reassure our allies in Japan and South Korea and elsewhere that we have mutual defense treaties and we will honor them.

It is essential that America's word be good. [...]
People around the word follow our presidential campaigns so closely, trying to get hints about what we will do. Can they rely on us? Are we going to lead the world with strength and in accordance with our values? That's what I intend to do. I intend to be a leader of our country that people can count on, both here at home and around the world, to make decisions that will further peace and prosperity, but also stand up to bullies, whether they're abroad or at home.
Political conservatism means different things in different countries and to different people but pretty much all the definitions include a resistance to spontaneity and to fundamental change. If Bernie Sanders were President the USA's choice of allies and its relationship with them would change, rightly or wrongly: he's something of a radical (in the original sense of the word ), less of an incrementalist. We've already heard what Trump would do if he were President, God forbid: rip NATO apart, "negotiate" the US debt, send more troops to Iraq to "take their oil". None of this is consistent with a conservative attitude.

In contrast, Hillary is a long time political player, former Secretary of State, and the spouse of a former President with the experience and understanding that implies. Her reaction to Trump's blather was spot-on: she reassured the US' allies that it would be business as usual. Some few people would like her to be more like Sanders; nobody with any sense would want her to be like Trump. She understands that the US's reputation is a valuable thing, something to be preserved. In a very real sense, at least when it comes to foreign policy, her strengths at this time come from the fact that she is the conservative candidate.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:18 PM on September 27, 2016 [33 favorites]



Long before the term "mansplain" entered common usage I mansplained something to an ex-girlfriend and she took me down by saying "Thanks, Professor!" in the most scathing tone of voice you could possibly imagine. There was no possible comeback.


This is barely relevant to the election, but I introduced the word mansplain to my husband before it was commonly known. My computer had crashed and I was trying to save it and about two hours into the process he recommended trying Safe Mode. I'm the techy gamer in our house, so him offering that suggestion SO LATE in the game just made me snap at him and tell him to stop mansplaining.

He got SO MAD at me for that. He was so incredibly offended that I'd accuse him of something sexist men do when he was totally not like that. We got in a huge fight. It was probably months before he admitted he had actually been guilty.

Now he catches himself doing it all the time. I just give him a Look, and he says, "Oh, right, that was mansplaining, sorry." I always think about that when I see men get angry at being called out on something. I love my husband and think he's one of the least macho-bullshit-type guys I've ever known. But even he couldn't handle his knowledge being unappreciated and getting called out on it.
posted by threeturtles at 8:23 PM on September 27, 2016 [40 favorites]


When I heard Clinton say this I suddenly realised: she is the conservative candidate.

When was the last time you heard a presidential candidate ponder about ripping up the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan (at present, the world's longest-running security treaty)? Or the Mutual Defense Treaty Between the United States and the Republic of Korea? Or pulling out of NATO?

No serious presidential candidate in at least 40 years has suggested pulling out of these things.

This is not an example of HRC being conservative. It's an example of her being prudent. What Trump said on stage last night in regards to the three treaties is absolute insanity.
posted by My Dad at 8:29 PM on September 27, 2016 [62 favorites]


Political conservatism means different things in different countries and to different people but pretty much all the definitions include a resistance to spontaneity and to fundamental change.

One of the undercurrents of this election is that it's the last of the pure Boomer Fights: the generation that grew up in the 50s has had a big role in every argument at every point along the line since adulthood, and the choice now is a kind of cargo-cultish reset button or accepting and dealing with gradual change.

A McCain-Clinton contest in 2008 might have been the last direct Boomer contest (or perhaps Clinton-Romney in 2012) but Obama got in the way.

If there's a realignment, then it probably needs to wait until an election with two candidates who weren't adults during Vietnam or Watergate, where snake people make up the largest demographic cohort.
posted by holgate at 8:41 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


When I heard Clinton say this I suddenly realised: she is the conservative candidate.

When was the last time you heard a presidential candidate ponder about ripping up the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan...

No serious presidential candidate in at least 40 years has suggested pulling out of these things.

This is not an example of HRC being conservative. It's an example of her being prudent.


Conservatives would argue that conservatism just is the prudential position. I think this is false, because prudence sometimes calls for radical choices, and that it calls for them now. (Prudence being defined as making the right choice, at the right time, in the in right way, for the right reason, and radical times call for radical measures.)

Not all radicalism is the same, of course. IN this campaign, Trump is undoubtedly the radical, and Clinton the conservative. But he's the wrong kind of radical, and she's the best kind of conservative. Incrementalism is a form of conservatism. We could be bolder. But I'm happy that we are not so bold as Trump.
posted by dis_integration at 8:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


I keep trying to find a way to articulate how uncomfortable Kellyanne Conway makes me feel, and how upsetting I find her. It's not just dislike -- she actively creeps me out.

The best example I can offer is her spin room conversation with Chris Matthews last night. He was asking her about Trump saying he had always been against the war in Iraq, and added that of course that's not the case.

Conway said no, that was true, Trump always had been against the war. Matthews mentioned the Howard Stern interview, and she said Trump never meant he was for the war, then went on about how Trump had many conversations about the war with many people and had always been against it.

Matthews asked if she could prove that and she said they were Trump's private conversations. Matthews asked how she knew Trump was always against the war, then, and she said, "He told me." Matthews asked if she could produce documentary proof and she just smiled and laughed. He asked how she knew then that Trump was always against the war and she repeated, because he told me! with a look that clearly said, what more proof could anyone need?!

And that's the creepy thing. Because either she has lost track of any possible difference between the Word of Trump and objective reality, or she's engaging in the sleaziest, slimiest, most cynical assault on the public trust I have ever encountered.

The impression I keep getting from the people who interview her is that they think she is a smart, cool, decent person who is maintaining this party line because it's her job. There's almost a sense that it's just a big in joke. But that's so much worse! Being evil for the sake of a paycheck is so much worse than just being evil because you don't know any better.

To sum up: *shudder*
posted by invincible summer at 8:47 PM on September 27, 2016 [55 favorites]


The impression I keep getting from the people who interview her is that they think she is a smart, cool, decent person who is maintaining this party line because it's her job.

Yeah no, totally agree, she's garbage. She just lies outright same as Trump does.
posted by zutalors! at 8:50 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


And that's the creepy thing. Because either she has lost track of any possible difference between the Word of Trump and objective reality, or she's engaging in the sleaziest, slimiest, most cynical assault on the public trust I have ever encountered.

What makes Conway SO creepy is that she does it with that pleasant, reassuring demeanor you'd expect from a teacher or a therapist. And she sticks to it so well it's hard to tell if she knows she's doing it, but she's too smart not to know. She's not just lying; she's actively emulating the most trustworthy of personas to do it, and that makes it feel like even more of a violation.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:53 PM on September 27, 2016 [26 favorites]


"Ashes. Not even identifiable ashes. Dust. It does not exist. It never existed."
"But it did exist! It does exist! It exists in memory. I remember it. You remember it."
"I do not remember it," said O'Brien.
posted by jaduncan at 8:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


As contrasted with e.g. Ari Fleischer, who in his Press Sec. days never seemed not to be sort of acknowledging that everybody knew they were doing a shit dance together but did it anyway. He'd still summon up some faux-indignation on the regular, though.

Being a press hack is a weird terrible gig that I wouldn't do for all the money in the world. Being a press hack for Trump is its own circle of hell beyond.
posted by cortex at 8:55 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump's Georgia campaign executive director resigns following revelation of 2008 conviction for criminal trespassing and battery.

A solid example of the effectiveness of Trump lead vetting.

I own an original Picasshole. From what I hear in the papers and what I saw last night, Trump Fine Art Storage is a place I can trust. They do terrific storage. The best. I've never heard of a Fine Arts Storage shop in the press. This one must be... you wouldn't believe. Loved the use of a puppet from Spitting Image as a promotional tool at the debate last night.
posted by juiceCake at 8:55 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillarys pragmatic and not really prudent politically, well, her press conference standing behind Bush.

At bit more Pragmatic, like trying to Co-opt the presidents work on TPP, her signature whatever. What's the postion today, esp. when dad pants Kaine caved in.
Hillary is about the most pragmatic politician around.
posted by clavdivs at 8:56 PM on September 27, 2016


Anyone who works for Trump is craven. Either it's their greed or their ambition or both that blinds them but it certainly isn't anything coming from their pure hearts. Whatever Conway was doing 3 months ago she could've kept doing, but she decided this was a better choice. That choice made her repugnant. Good germans, and all.
posted by dis_integration at 8:58 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


And that's the creepy thing. Because either she has lost track of any possible difference between the Word of Trump and objective reality, or she's engaging in the sleaziest, slimiest, most cynical assault on the public trust I have ever encountered.

I see you've never lived in DC.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:59 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


What Trump said on stage last night in regards to the three treaties is absolute insanity.

Trump's muttering "that's life" to the prospect of nuclear war in Asia would have dominated headlines in a normal election. We're so used to the crazy now that it was barely noticed.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:59 PM on September 27, 2016 [34 favorites]


Many thanks to angrycat for the idea to read these threads backwards. This thread already had 1600+ comments when I opened it, so I just backwards-read 100 or so and I felt all caught up. Nice!
posted by isthmus at 9:01 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


That appalled me too, RobotVoodooPower, but I checked the NYT transcript of the debate, and they had that as "that's lies," instead of "that's life." So, there's that at least.
posted by yasaman at 9:01 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anyone who works for Trump is craven.

I would not beat up on anyone who worked at one of his businesses as a regular job. The hotel staff, the paper-pushers, all that stuff -- people need jobs, y'know? People need a paycheck.

But anyone who'd sign on with a campaign that is so actively destructive and dishonest? Yeah. No forgiveness there. At all. And everyone involved on any kind of a management or leadership level should be shunned from politics forever, not to mention every decent bar.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I like this Frank Bruni column mostly because I did the exact same bit for my 10th grade book report on Catcher in the Rye
posted by theodolite at 9:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


So if we're doing family reactions to the debate, this is what my 73 year old mother sent me today on the topic:
I watched the debate last night and unfortunately I think Trump looked powerful and masculine and all the rednecks will vote for him. Women are at a real disadvantage and it is an uphill battle. I hate him and he is a liar and knows nothing about how to run this country but I am very afraid he will win.
So I'm not sure what to make of that, but yanno.
posted by threeturtles at 9:10 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillarys pragmatic and not really prudent politically

In the context of the conversation (ripping up 3 major mutual defense treaties), HRC is not being pragmatic when she says she will honor existing treaties. Being pragmatic suggests there are a variety of choices, and respecting the 3 mutual defense treaties is one of those choices. However, there is no choice but to observe them. The entire global order depends on the treaties with NATO, Japan and Korea. That's not pragmatism, and that's not conservatism.

I haven't heard about any liberal/progressive candidates talking about ripping up those mutual defense treaties. It's just not on the table. As someone said, to suggest ripping them up is radical (and insanely dangerous).
posted by My Dad at 9:14 PM on September 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh, burn. From the former President of Mexico:
Vicente Fox Quesada ‏@VicenteFoxQue 11h11 hours ago Guadalajara, Jalisco

@realDonaldTrump you have no shame, I just got another e-mail begging for help. Tell me what does losing feels like? Have a little dignity!
Underneath is a copy of Trump's most recent (illegal) solicitation.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:14 PM on September 27, 2016 [77 favorites]


unfortunately I think Trump looked powerful and masculine and all the rednecks will vote for him.

Even if they do, there aren't enough of them to guarantee his victory.
posted by argybarg at 9:34 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sean Hannity is losing it

Subtitle: Sean Hannity Tells Off Those Media Elitists With Their Limos and Steaks and Fancy Wine
posted by Talez at 9:35 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Subtitle: Sean Hannity Tells Off Those Media Elitists With Their Limos and Steaks and Fancy Wine

How would you reporters all like your steaks?

Media rare.
posted by Groundhog Week at 9:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [13 favorites]


Subtitle: Sean Hannity Tells Off Those Media Elitists With Their Limos and Steaks and Fancy Wine

Do Hannity and Trump dine together on Big Macs and Dr. Pepper? Does Hannity take the bus to the TV studio? God save us from these hypocrites.
posted by dis_integration at 9:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump? How Could We? - Thomas L. Friedman
I see: Everything wrong is Clinton’s fault and anything good is to the president’s credit alone. Silly.

The “Squawk Box” segment was devoted to the fact that while Trump claims that he will get the economy growing, very few C.E.O.s of major U.S. companies are supporting him. Also, interesting how positively the stock market reacted to Trump’s debate defeat. Maybe because C.E.O.s and investors know that Trump and Conway are con artists and that recent statistics show income gaps are actually narrowing, wages are rising and poverty is easing.

The Trump-Conway shtick is to trash the country so they can make us great again. Fact: We have problems and not everyone is enjoying the fruits of our economy, but if you want to be an optimist about America, stand on your head — the country looks so much better from the bottom up. What you see are towns and regions not waiting for Washington, D.C., but coming together themselves to fix infrastructure, education and governance. I see it everywhere I go.
posted by Talez at 9:51 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


How come only the Op-Ed part of the New York Times is pointing out Conway being a major part of the con and that she just spews lies and falsehoods whenever a camera is pointed at her.
posted by Talez at 9:54 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


I was a little disappointed that Hillary didn't pivot Donald's complaint about regulations into a defense of fire codes.
posted by ckape at 10:04 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


"And I want to reassure our allies in Japan and South Korea and elsewhere that we have mutual defense treaties and we will honor them"

Hilary's bit from Joes post which he equates to conservatism which then is expounded on as being "prudent", a fact though hardly a surprise about honoring treaties in a political debate is this not so? Deducing American conservative "thought" from these perfunctory stances is the derail. Honoring these treaties is common sense. For what is there not to be prudent about concerning "the treaties". But I posit her positions can pivot, which I believe is pragmatic and I even gave an example-TTP, that sorta touches on "the treaties" no?
Donald, on the other ring finger probably thinks TPP is a Tissue paper tariff.
posted by clavdivs at 10:21 PM on September 27, 2016


'You down with TPP?'

....

'Dont tell me what to say.'
posted by box at 10:34 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


Not all radicalism is the same, of course. IN this campaign, Trump is undoubtedly the radical, and Clinton the conservative

If you stop and think about the etymology of the words and their origins and totally ignore their modern usage, yeah, sure you can get something like that. But it's like insisting that a white South African immigrant is an African American because isn't that what it means or being horrified to hear that someone ate a hamburger because dude that totally means someone from Hamburg. Preserving liberal international is the gains against a conservative isolationist attack is not conservatism just because you're trying to prevent a change. It's still just liberalism.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:41 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Trump-Conway shtick is to trash the country so they can make us great again.

it takes a pillage...
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:51 PM on September 27, 2016 [23 favorites]


McCain is a great depression baby(and it looks like it's shaped up that the US is never going to have a leader from that era), not a boomer.
posted by brujita at 10:53 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


'Don't tell me what to say.'

Trump would probably rip up everything you have come to enjoy, that's scary.
That Fox tweet is something and I'd posit Fox is pragmatic.
See
The
Chronology.
posted by clavdivs at 10:54 PM on September 27, 2016


"The “Squawk Box” segment was devoted to the fact that while Trump claims that he will get the economy growing, very few C.E.O.s of major U.S. companies are supporting him. Also, interesting how positively the stock market reacted to Trump’s debate defeat."

I had this conversation with my one Trumpista friend, and pointed out that the stock market was terrified of Trump and no Fortune 100 CEOs supported him, and he was all, "Well, the stock market and the Fortune 100 aren't the economy; Trump will fix the economy." He has a BS from the University of Illinois, it terrifies me.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:06 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah, I'd prefer it if someone who just became a centerpiece of the campaign wasn't an accessory to murder though. Even if sexism against accessories to murder is just as bad as sexism against anybody else.
But Machado is not an associate of Hillary's. She is someone Trump chose to work with, for his own profit. If Trump had no problem working with an accomplice to murder who dated a drug lord, but dropped her the second she gained some weight, that's even more damning (and makes it a more lurid story, guaranteeing more TV coverage).
posted by msalt at 11:10 PM on September 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


She was not necessarily a master baiter

Are we not doing phrasing any more?

There's already a sexy Trump costume on the market. Meet Donna T. Rumpshaker.

Pretty sure that's an Angus Young costume.
posted by bongo_x at 11:12 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


That's why the smart people need to get out of the stock market immediately if he wins, and watch the Trumpistas go down with their 401Ks.... "oh, all my money was invested there?"
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:13 PM on September 27, 2016


A Surprising Number of Debate-Watchers Saw What They Wanted to See: A Trump Victory.

No, they really didn't. But they will say they did.
posted by bongo_x at 11:14 PM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump - 'I say nothing.'

I'm not what they believe, and if they find out they will leave.
posted by bongo_x at 11:17 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]




Trump: 'I say nothing.'

Master Sergeant Schultz: "I see nothing! I hear nothing! I know nothing!"
posted by mikelieman at 11:33 PM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


I hate him and he is a liar and knows nothing about how to run this country but I am very afraid he will win.

Almost exactly eight years ago I posted a lengthy comment in the MeFi election thread that started with the following:
I'll let you in on a secret: this election is going to be an absolute blowout. The whole "neck-and-neck election" meme is the result of a media narrative driven by faulty poll numbers. The polls are faulty because they continue to underestimate the effect that minority and youth voting blocs will have in this election...I'm keenly aware of this because I'm a young Latino.
And ended with the following:
These morons are actually actively reminding us that for the last twenty years the Republican party has been hell-bent on making us think we're not "real" Americans, even when we were freakin' born here.

We're not just excited anymore. Now we're also pissed.
In the intervening eight years, the GOP not only failed to learn from their mistakes, they doubled-down. We handed these chucklefucks their asses two Presidential elections in a row and they decided that the winning strategy was to piss us off even more! This, despite the fact that the 2016 electorate will be the most diverse in U.S. history.

This shit is gonna be a landslide. Expect us.
posted by joedan at 11:39 PM on September 27, 2016 [129 favorites]


P.S. this USA Today article from earlier this week is relevant: In an Arizona county, anger at Trump spurs Latinos to vote
posted by joedan at 11:42 PM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]


And that's the creepy thing. Because either she has lost track of any possible difference between the Word of Trump and objective reality, or she's engaging in the sleaziest, slimiest, most cynical assault on the public trust I have ever encountered.

It's closer to the latter. Whenever an interviewer keeps pushing she'll put on an expression of shock and with all the indignation she can muster she says "Are you accusing him of lying?!" Then the interviewers always leave it there, because journalism is dead and nobody has the guts to say "Yes, I'm accusing him of fucking lying because he is fucking lying."
posted by Anonymous at 11:59 PM on September 27, 2016


Right now we're just struggling to win much less a landslide. Time to buckle down and GOTV.
posted by Justinian at 12:09 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


joedan: You know Latino turnout was only 47% in 2012 compared to high 60s for white and black voters, right? I hope there's a massive Hispanic turnout as well but there wasn't in '08 or '12.
posted by Justinian at 12:22 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


This shit is gonna be a landslide. Expect us.

I know, right! I don’t know anyone voting for Trump, and I’m white! The most numerous demographic! He’s going to get destroyed 100%!
posted by Going To Maine at 12:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whedon's Save the Day PAC has come out with its second video, You Say Vote with the caption, "This is not about the White House, this is about your house. Share this with a friend who might not be voting."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


I was thinking, when Trump was going on about Japan and NATO not paying the US enough money for their defence, that he is absolutely the man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. I mean it’s one thing when you’re talking about trade deals, but even treaties designed to maintain geopolitical stability — to prevent wars — are judged by who won the deal *financially*.

Unfortunately, quoting Oscar Wilde probably doesn’t strike quite the right folksy note for a US presidential debate.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:33 AM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Joedan- I remember you writing that 8 years ago and it gave me great comfort at the time. Thank you for reminding me.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:40 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


By the way, the Census site has more information than you knew you wanted to know about divergent turnout rates by ethnicity and geographically in the report The Diversifying Electorate - Voting Rates by Race and Hispanic Origin in 2012 (and Other Recent Elections).

The most interesting part to me was something I didn't know; the turnout difference between people of different ethnicities is heavily affected by location. For example, East of the Mississippi Black turnout is significantly higher than white turnout (New England excepted) while in the Rockies, West, and Southwest White turnout is significantly higher than Black turnout. They are roughly the same between the Rockies and the Mississippi and in New England.

There are similar patterns for Hispanic voters.
posted by Justinian at 12:40 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Then the interviewers always leave it there, because journalism is dead and nobody has the guts to say "Yes, I'm accusing him of fucking lying because he is fucking lying."

Interviewing isn’t the be-all and end-all of journalism.

At this point, the media has defined the narrative to be that Trump is a serial liar. Set in stone, courtesy of a billion fact checks, to say nothing of those many interviews. I’m not saying that interviewers shouldn’t necessarily cross some final bridge of strong-arming Conway into some kind of on camera admission that her candidate lies, but if you can name even one “ideologically neutral” outlet that hasn’t acknowledge that Trump chronically misrepresents things I’d be interested to know what it is.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


(Indeed, if anything, I’d argue that the problem is that most of the narrative is currently focused on Trump’s being a liar, and is ignoring his tax fraud and other likely criminal activities.)
posted by Going To Maine at 12:43 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regarding Trump "getting tougher" with Clinton in the future, I almost hope he does bring up Bill's affairs since one of the other key groups that still has some support for Trump is the religious right, and they really don't like him. If Hillary would answer any Trump attack by making a reference to her faith and the importance she places in keeping her vows, unlike her opponent, it could sever more of his support, maybe not to vote for her, but to not vote against her anyway. It also doubles down on Trump's word being worthless, which is always a plus. Not really any good way to win that argument from Trump's side should he raise it, or should it come up in the town hall debate.

That Alicia Machado info is disturbing. I imagine Trump's people are going to hammer at that for a while as an example of the people Clinton associates with and her bad judgment. Obviously Trump's campaign staff and associates are as bad or worse, but it feeds the narrative of both candidates being awful for those already inclined to feel that way.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:36 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Remember, Alicia Machado settled those charges with no admission of guilt.
posted by Justinian at 1:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [34 favorites]


This is from a while back up the thread but

Internalized misogyny is deeper and much more coded than what we generally think were talking about when we talk about sexism.

is something I have definitely encountered during this election. Not only within myself, but from good friends, which has been really unsettling and difficult to face.

Rather than trying to defend Hillary (because it just wasn't working) I have tried to come at it sideways by bringing up other women in power to discuss issues of sexism and internalised misogyny. For example Anna Wintour, Kim Kardashian - not trying to champion them as feminists or otherwise, but just using them as subjects to discuss sexism in society and I think more critically, examine our own feelings about them.

I'm hoping our chats inject something into their subconscious and they become more self-aware about their feelings and reactions to Hillary Clinton. I know I should just be grateful that they're going to vote for her but I want them to be excited by her and not just repulsed by the talking yam.
posted by like_neon at 2:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy, that Rolling Stone article harks back to classic Twain. Filed in my bookmarks under writing and poetry.

Maybe there's such a thing as a tipping point after all *fingers crossed*
posted by glasseyes at 3:10 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


In the intervening eight years, the GOP not only failed to learn from their mistakes, they doubled-down. We handed these chucklefucks their asses two Presidential elections in a row and they decided that the winning strategy was to piss us off even more! This, despite the fact that the 2016 electorate will be the most diverse in U.S. history.

This shit is gonna be a landslide. Expect us.


In 2008 and 2012 just under 2/3 of eligible white and black voters voted. Just under 1/2 of latinx voters voted. If the latinx community turns out the way the white and black communities do then it will be a blowout - the Dems win Texas.
posted by Francis at 3:10 AM on September 28, 2016 [32 favorites]


And I have stayed off of 538 for two glorious days now.
Unfortunately there is all this other stuff to worry about.
You know, it's like, *yes, we are fighting back the fascists* and in comes in climate change with a sad trombone noise
posted by angrycat at 4:00 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Internalized misogyny is deeper and much more coded than what we generally think were talking about when we talk about sexism.

It's been interesting just evaluating my own responses to certain things this election. I'm obviously very liberal and pro-Hillary now, but I was a Republican for many years* which included big chunks of the 90s and 00s, so I had a good bit of Clinton hate then. And even today when I see a clip of Hillary back in the 90s in an ad or wherever, I sometimes get an almost involuntary negative visceral reaction to it. Some of that is I'm sure due to my body being conditioned for many years to have that reaction, but some of it is I think an unconscious sexist response to her mannerisms, hair, speech, dress, whatever back then. Things that certainly don't bother me about women now, and I'd like to think didn't about other women besides her back then, but clearly did about her. But I don't have any of that come up when I see her today. It's easier to like her as an older, for lack of a better description, more grandmotherly person. Which is totally unfair and a little surprising to me since even when I was a Republican I always considered myself one of the socially liberal, fiscally conservative ones. But it does tell me just how deep it goes and how hard it is to get rid of.

* in my defense I grew up in South Dakota in a evangelical household and then went to college and lived post-college for many years in Texas
posted by chris24 at 5:06 AM on September 28, 2016 [30 favorites]


I don't care if Machado actually murdered someone, and I bet neither does the rest of the Latin electorate- that ad is damning. Especially how beautiful she looks while he is calling her fat.
posted by corb at 5:19 AM on September 28, 2016 [49 favorites]



A piece about Machado was a top story on CBC radio last night. I heard it in the car 3 times over a three hour drive. It started with talking about the Miss Piggy exchange at the debate, a bit about Machado being disparaged and insulted constantly by Trump when she was miss Universe and how she didn't feel she could do anything at the time because she wasn't a US citizen. Now she is and now she is finally speaking out. Then a clip from her Anderson Cooper interview. She says she thinks America is beautiful and she doesn't want a misogyny president. She has a daughter who is growing up here and she doesn't want that.

It was a good little sum up about Trump and who he is without directly saying "Trump is XYZ"
posted by Jalliah at 5:33 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can't imagine the Clinton camp would go through all this production and work with Machado and not know about her past. You don't have Clinton be that prepped for the debates and drop that kind of ball. I have to conclude that they decided to take the risk to gain the Latinx vote. And assuming they went in with eyes wide open, I also assume they have a ready response if they deem it even necessary.
posted by like_neon at 5:37 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


That's why the smart people need to get out of the stock market immediately if he wins, and watch the Trumpistas go down with their 401Ks.... "oh, all my money was invested there?"

There's not going to be a safe place to store money if Trump wins. Maybe gold? The second he starts to talk about renegotiating the US federal debt as the President the spell is broken, the USD sinks like a stone and the inflation starts.

The US economy starts to slow down again taking the whole world with it. Then we see what reemerges in the new economic world order.
posted by Talez at 5:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


That's why the smart people need to get out of the stock market immediately if he wins, and watch the Trumpistas go down with their 401Ks.... "oh, all my money was invested there?"

That's actually backwards. The smart people will pour money in once the dip happens.

The only reason for people to take their money out of the market if Trump wins is if they were planning on withdrawing during the time he is in office. Otherwise patience and steady investing will still win the day. Like it always does.
posted by srboisvert at 5:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Philip Bump at The Washington Post / The Fix: “That viral image showing #TrumpWon starting in Russia is fake”

Shocking!
posted by indubitable at 5:58 AM on September 28, 2016


you can be a self-aware woman who has reasons for not being excited about Clinton that have nothing to do with internalized misogyny

I completely agree this is possible. But trust me, that this is not where my friends are coming from, which is what my anecdote stems from. If they could have a rational conversation with me about her policies or past actions I wouldn't attempt anything further. But comments like "something about her is annoying" or "she's just so bad at speeches" are hard to let go.

I am mindful of coming off as too pushy, which is why I said I have given up on directly rah-rah-ing about Hillary to them. But I fully admit that she's a big reason why I've become more willing to engage in discussions about sexism in general with my friends (and based on how our conversations have gone I would like to think my friends are getting something out of it too.)
posted by like_neon at 6:02 AM on September 28, 2016 [21 favorites]


Smart place to store your money if Trump wins is in lift tickets to the orbital colonies so that we can watch the impending destruction of the planet from a safe ring side seat.
posted by vuron at 6:13 AM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Maybe gold?

Rubles, surely.
posted by spitbull at 6:13 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nah, the Russians don't even invest in rubles they just buy up properties in NYC and London including but not limited to Trump properties.
posted by vuron at 6:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Views on Race and Gender Mark Stark Divide Between Clinton, Trump Supporters

"Controlling for demographics, partisanship, ideology and presidential approval, seeing too little influence for whites and men and too much influence for minorities and women independently predicts support for Trump."

Again, Trump's not about economic uncertainty but racism and sexism.
posted by chris24 at 6:19 AM on September 28, 2016 [42 favorites]


You know, it's like, *yes, we are fighting back the fascists* and in comes in climate change with a sad trombone noise

Unfortunately, now that we know (and all current and future political players know) that the "conservatives" of the electorate are so thoroughly accomodating towards open fascism and/or are fascist-curious, I can in all seriousness imagine conservative political figures doing a complete 180° and with We have always been at war with climate change use it as the existential threat to power a fascist takeover.

There just doesn't seem to be a limit to the stupidity and historical ignorance of the things people will vote for. Before this election, I really thought there was some lower bar, somewhere.
posted by XMLicious at 6:20 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


For a large percentage of the conservative base the idea of the impacts of climate change is either remote as in "I don't care about the future because my livelihood in the here and now depends on fossil fuel exploitation" or completely trivial because there is a belief that the endtimes are eminent and Jesus will restore the world to a pristine state.

The people at the top of the pyramid who stand to continue to make billions through continued fossil fuel exploitation are counting on that sizable contingent of the base to continue to block effective climate change action which inevitably means massive reductions in fossil fuel exploitation (thus way less current and future wealth).

Fundamentally what we are facing is both a national and a global tragedy of the commons from the perspective of everyone wanting to externalize the inherent costs of continued fossil fuel exploitation but the reality is that there really is no way to avoid sharing a percentage of the externalities. I guess extreme wealth could potentially insulate the chosen few from almost all the likely outcomes of global climate change at least long enough to get orbital habitats up and running.
posted by vuron at 6:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't think Trump and his followers need or want a pretext for a fascist takeover. They just like a fascist takeover, as long as they're on the side that's taking over.
posted by argybarg at 6:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Many thanks to angrycat for the idea to read these threads backwards. This thread already had 1600+ comments when I opened it, so I just backwards-read 100 or so and I felt all caught up. Nice!

I was on the road, so missed the realtime posts. I made sure to go to the start of the debate and read those messages in order to experience what I missed due to our inablility to fund a proper Public Radio Network that actually covers The Public with Radio.
posted by mikelieman at 6:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]




I can't help but notice that people here have barely mentioned the last couple of Trump rallies. I guess the shock value is starting to run out? Sad!
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:36 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


New debate strategy for Donald Trump: Practice Practice Practice

Oh god I love this. Here are all the things Trump needs to work on for the next debate:

- Get drilled on crucial answers, facts and counterattacks
- Press the fact he's an "element of change"
- Show a "higher level of seriousness"
- Exploit Hillary's vulnerabilities
- Recognise and avoid the delicious bait Hillary lays out for him
- Prepare for battling with a woman
- Get used to the town hall format: ie literally be able to walk and talk at the same time and pass for human

And this is a candidate that has been widely reported as having an abysmal attention span, lacks curiosity, and easily bored with details.

And he's relying on a list of "advisors" who have a broad range of personal agendas and very little if any debate experience.

Oh and he has about 2 weeks before the next debate.

Edit: Oops, less than 2 weeks. 10 days.

Lol...........
posted by like_neon at 6:39 AM on September 28, 2016 [21 favorites]


Today's NY Times print front page might be Clinton's best of the cycle:

1) A huge 4 column image of her hugging a black woman, captioned Clinton relishing her debate performance

2) Column 5 is "Trump is Given Thumbs Down in the Suburbs: Undecded Women Find Little to Like"

3) Column 6 is "Debate Setback Provoke Trump to Air His Gripes: Vilifies a Miss Universe, Scolding Monitor, Hints at New Taunts -- Lift For Clinton
posted by chris24 at 6:39 AM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


I read that story about suburban women earlier, and I just absolutely treasure the photo that goes with it. Just look at those faces. It begs to be a meme: "Tell us again how...."
posted by Miko at 6:45 AM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


New debate strategy for Donald Trump: Practice Practice Practice

"There were early efforts to run a more standard form of general election debate-prep camp, led by Roger Ailes, the ousted Fox News chief, at Mr. Trump’s golf course in Bedminster, N.J. But Mr. Trump found it hard to focus during those meetings, according to multiple people briefed on the process who requested anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. That left Mr. Ailes, who at the time was deeply distracted by his removal from Fox and the news media reports surrounding it, discussing his own problems as well as recounting political war stories, according to two people present for the sessions."

Trump's biographer and ghost writer has said Trump has the attention span of a goldfish, and physically cannot focus for more than a couple minutes at a time. He's incapable of studying or processing new information in any kind of structured way. WTF does the President actually do all day except study briefings and reports constantly? Or prepare for important remarks. Or important negotiations, by reading reams of reports and briefings. A President with acute learning/concentration disorder seems like a bad time.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [40 favorites]


Debate Setback Provoke Trump to Air His Gripes

Festivus is early this year.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


A President with acute learning/concentration disorder seems like a bad time.

Especially one who appears to be doing nothing to compensate.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hints at New Taunts

Now, lots of smart people are saying, Crooked Hilary's mother smelled of elderberries
posted by thelonius at 6:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]




vuron, I disagree that it's a given that a radical reduction in fossil hydrocarbon use will necessarily result in "way less current and future wealth." Renewable energy is already a massive industry, and it's growing rapidly. The growth in renewables seems to be limited more by economic and regulatory factors than by anything inherent to the industry itself. The global economy demands that energy be available, so we're going to have to have production capacity one way or another if we don't want to see a major collapse. Once we finish the transition, we're going to reach a new steady state that looks similar to the current regime in terms of energy availability; the question is more about how fast and how deeply that transition is going to occur, and right now it looks to me like we have a lot of room to grow, should the economic and regulatory climate shift to really prioritize rollout of renewable energy sources.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:51 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


"That left Mr. Ailes, who at the time was deeply distracted by his removal from Fox and the news media reports surrounding it, discussing his own problems as well as recounting political war stories, according to two people present for the sessions."

@JoshTPM: "So Trump's debate prep was listening to Ailes rant abt the B-----s who did him in at Fox #TrumpsRazor"
posted by chris24 at 6:52 AM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


538: What Could The Polls Be Missing?
posted by Artw at 6:52 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


From the NYT suburban women article:
Barb Haag of West Chester, a retired teacher of the emotionally disturbed, said Mr. Trump’s interruptions did not bother her. “Kids interrupt you all the time if they have a point to make,” she said.
Got it. So Trump is like an emotionally disturbed child. Tell us something we don't know.
posted by zakur at 6:57 AM on September 28, 2016 [50 favorites]




> But Mr. Trump found it hard to focus during those meetings, according to multiple people briefed on the process who requested anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

Here's one of the ten billion things I don't get about Trump (and didn't get about Rob Ford when he was a thing up here); for argument's sake let's say you truly believe in his message and what he wants to achieve in office. Then you meet him, and work with him. Maybe it doesn't bother you that he's an unrepentant racist asshole. Maybe you even think that's a point in his favour. But wouldn't it bother you that he is plainly not intellectually or temperamentally up to the job, and has to be constantly propped up by a large team of people in order to seem even tenuously competent? And the minute he cannot lean on that support he just up and immediately craps the bed?

If I met a politician I admire and s/he turned out to be an idiot who couldn't even get through a meeting to prepare for the biggest debate of their life without getting distracted like a seven year-old trying to avoid doing their times tables homework, I would find someone else to support.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:02 AM on September 28, 2016 [27 favorites]


Trump prides himself on the quick take, the emotional feel it in your gut answers. He sees his continued success as vindicating that strategy. It's extremely difficult for any of us to change our default behavior without a deep desire to change and considerable practice.

It's also really really difficult to change your default behavior during times of increased stress such as you know running for President.

So no matter how much the consultants try to change Donald he's not going to change because at his core the only person he really trusts and respects is himself. That means any sort of debate prep that he's going to do is going to be perfunctory at best.

Trump's forte is apparently shouting at people to motivate them and schmoozing with innocuous journalists that are unlikely to ask deep probing questions. He also seems to do okay at the standard duck and weave tactics of handling a press conference where you can basically answer a question with something completely off topic.

He does not seem to do particularly well under direct interrogation which is why he's unlikely to do a big interview with someone likely to really question him even though that could go a long way towards mollifying some of his doubters. He also doesn't seem like he can handle a town hall debate where average Americans get to ask questions of him.

In general professional politicians have a great deal of experience with almost all modalities of talking with and to potential voters but Trump really doesn't seem to have any significant experience with various aspects of actually being a politician and additionally seems unlike to actually practice.
posted by vuron at 7:03 AM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Then you meet him, and work with him. Maybe it doesn't bother you that he's an unrepentant asshole. Maybe you even think that's a point in his favour. But wouldn't it bother you that he is plainly not intellectually or temperamentally up to the job, and has to be constantly propped up by a large team of people in order to seem even tenuously competent?

That would quickly be subsumed by "Ah, this is my chance to be important as the person behind the throne!" For other unrepentant assholes, at least.
posted by Etrigan at 7:05 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's biographer and ghost writer has said Trump has the attention span of a goldfish, and physically cannot focus for more than a couple minutes at a time. He's incapable of studying or processing new information in any kind of structured way.

You know, even with Clinton's dominant performance the other night, there's a part of me that can't help but be nervous about the next debate. Like...she's shown her hand and now they know what to expect from her so they can prep Trump to be ready! And then he'll come out and be dominant and all of those voters practically begging him to give them an excuse to vote for him will flock back to his side, and it will all be over! Auuugh!

...and then I take a deep breath and remember that this is Trump we're talking about. It doesn't matter how much good advice anyone gives him. Leaving aside the utter chaos of his own team, he just doesn't have the patience or intelligence or humility to really internalize anything new. He won't change because he doesn't want to change. He doesn't see the need to. Why not? He's a winner! The first thing he does after Monday's disaster is whine about the moderation, introduce conspiracy theories about microphone tampering, double down on the ugly misogyny, and go straight back to his rallies, where he can get cheers for throwing out the "crooked Hillary" line to his heart's content and lie as blatantly as he wants without anyone calling him on it. I hope he has a big, stupid rally every day between now and the next debate. The louder the cheers from the dead-enders who show up for his little circus, the less he'll be inclined to take seriously the idea that he actually lost and needs to change his approach.

When all of this is safely over, maybe I'll be able to laugh about how this garbage dump of a human being has been allowed to get so far against an opponent who is so far out of his league that she may as well be in another solar system. But today is not that day.
posted by Salieri at 7:05 AM on September 28, 2016 [40 favorites]


When all of this is safely over, maybe I'll be able to laugh about how this garbage dump of a human being has been allowed to get so far against an opponent who is so far out of his league that she may as well be in another solar system. But today is not that day.

Many times I've thought that I just want this to be over so that I can laugh freely at some of the sheer stupidity and ridiculousness of some of what I'm watching and reading. It's not that I haven't been able to laugh, it's just that's it's laughter with a dark undercurrent of yeah this is funny but also not so funny cause this guy could get elected. And it's not like I think overall this election is funny, it's not it's very serious but sometimes you gotta laugh or you will cry.
posted by Jalliah at 7:15 AM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


The first thing he does after Monday's disaster is whine about the moderation, introduce conspiracy theories about microphone tampering, double down on the ugly misogyny, and go straight back to his rallies, where he can get cheers for throwing out the "crooked Hillary" line to his heart's content and lie as blatantly as he wants without anyone calling him on it.

This morning as I drove in NPR played clips from one of his post debate rallies where he said he won the debate.

Heaven help us all if he decides to attend the vice presidential debate to 'watch'.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:20 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't think I'll be able to laugh about this election for a long, long time.

Maybe when my kids are in high school (so, say, 14 years from now) and they ask me about how the US, in 2016, almost elected a fascist reality TV star beholden to Russia as president I can have a chuckle. But no. I don't think so. I think I might still shudder in terror.
posted by lydhre at 7:20 AM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


If I met a politician I admire and s/he turned out to be an idiot who couldn't even get through a meeting to prepare for the biggest debate of their life without getting distracted like a seven year-old trying to avoid doing their times tables homework, I would find someone else to support.

Imagine if the debate was between Jill Stein on the left and John McCain on the right. Clearly the left's candidate is batshit insane. But can you really stomach McCain? He's wrong but he's wrong within normal parameters. She promises a lot of what the popular left want but she'd probably fuck the country in her own way. But you know if McCain gets in it's going to be more conservative policies and control of the Supreme Court for the next generation.

This is what Republicans are going through. The choices are a petulant, racist seven year old who will at least rubber stamp most of the shit you push through and an experienced public servant who can and will fight you tooth and nail on every policy position you hold dear.
posted by Talez at 7:20 AM on September 28, 2016 [77 favorites]


Don't think it's been posted, but David French's (remember him?) debate review at NRO was worth reading just for this line about Trump:

"I felt like I was watching the political Titanic hit the iceberg, back up, and hit it again. Just for fun."
posted by chris24 at 7:22 AM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]




Trump prides himself on the quick take, the emotional feel it in your gut answers. He sees his continued success as vindicating that strategy.

And the number two in the one two punch is to make sure that the average and low information voter understand that he is a millionaire that should by any account be much richer than he is. What he calls 'being a businessman' is really robbing Peter to pay Paul staying one step ahead of the IRS and bankruptcy. Maybe people think it's normal for someone who was given millions as a young man to turn to scams like Trump Vodka, Trump Steaks and Trump University, but he needs constant small time cash flow to keep afloat. The pictures of himself and Melania in gold rooms is pure overcompensation. He is not really a success by any measure. And when he does go broke again (and he will) he will blame it all on conspirators and have mouthpieces like Hannity to back him.

I don't know how the scams about flying all his own planes and using all his own facilities on GOP and taxpayer money can be simplified in a way that doesn't make people tune out because anything with money is boring and turns people off. But that's what will do him in.

I wish just the notion that he always kept lots of bikinis in the pool house at Mar a Lago and would suggest to all the beauty pageant contestants that they could use the pool for a photo shoot and if they demurred (who wouldn't) by saying they didn't happen to bring a suit...well look here any bikini, yours to keep.
posted by readery at 7:24 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Okay I can't help return to that article, but given the list of things Trump has to work on for the next debate, this is how I imagine it will go down:

- Get drilled on crucial answers, facts and counterattacks
Nope. Not gonna happen. He's going to just repeat things he's already said before, even the lies. If anything he will be super confused and blurt out absolute nonsense (as he has consistently done so far).

- Press the fact he's an "element of change"
Shout "I'm different! I'm an outsider! I'm a businessman!" at various interavals, which is so easy to counter attack as lacking in experience.

- Show a "higher level of seriousness"
He does not know what this means or how to do this. His best attempt at seriousness requires him reading off a teleprompter.

- Exploit Hillary's vulnerabilities
To Trump, this means going after Bill's infidelity. I'm sure his advisors are coaching him to NOT touch this but all that will do is put it top of mind and he's going to instinctively grab at it when he's pressed into a corner.

- Recognise and avoid the delicious bait Hillary lays out for him
He is unable to do this over Twitter where he has the opportunity to physically put his phone down and show restraint. He will not be able to help it live on stage as he will take every attack very personally. For crying out loud, he went after Rosie O'Donnell completely unprompted without any bait at all! Hillary is going to clean out the bait shop and bring extra tackles to the next debate.

- Prepare for battling with a woman
His team is just crossing their fingers he doesn't call Hillary a bitch out loud.

- Get used to the town hall format: ie literally be able to walk and talk at the same time and pass for human
From what I understand, the dude is actually physically imposing. And I'm sure he has used this to his advantage his entire life. He's going to have a hard time not looking like a bully stomping around the schoolyard.

The best possible performance for Trump will make him look subdued and weak. He won't allow that so I'm hoping for Trump Gonna Trump: The Trumpening.

My anxiety level for this election is too high for this to make me confident in any way, but I will allow myself to go from Level 10 to Level 9.5.
posted by like_neon at 7:25 AM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


"Controlling for demographics, partisanship, ideology and presidential approval, seeing too little influence for whites and men and too much influence for minorities and women independently predicts support for Trump."

Again, Trumps not about economic uncertainty but racism and sexism.
Compare with:
In 2008 and 2012 just under 2/3 of eligible white and black voters voted. Just under 1/2 of latinx voters voted. If the latinx community turns out the way the white and black communities do then it will be a blowout - the Dems win Texas.
Either the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats, thereby making white Republicans less relevant" is real or it isn't. If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests. If it's not real, the Democrats are actually being kind of racist themselves by assuming that minorities will vote for them, as if they're not capable of making individual choices. Which is it?
posted by Rangi at 7:25 AM on September 28, 2016


I hope he has a big, stupid rally every day between now and the next debate. The louder the cheers from the dead-enders who show up for his little circus, the less he'll be inclined to take seriously the idea that he actually lost and needs to change his approach.

Can't favorite enough.
posted by whuppy at 7:26 AM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Whoo! That Jesse Williams PSA is powerful!
posted by Sophie1 at 7:27 AM on September 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


> Heaven help us all if he decides to attend the vice presidential debate to 'watch'.

Oh my god, could he do that? Now I'm picturing him blundering out on stage and pushing Pence out of the way.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats

The increase in minority percentage of the population is not driven by immigration but primarily from higher birth rates among non-white populations. For Asians it is immigration, but for black and Latinx it is birth rate.

white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests. If it's not real, the Democrats are actually being kind of racist themselves by assuming that minorities will vote for them

You're assuming white and minority interests are automatically at cross purposes. And projecting that future Latinx voters will vote similar to current trends is hardly racist.
posted by chris24 at 7:34 AM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


"Trump blusters and purrs and expands and contracts like a shaved tribble."

The view from across the pond in Ireland as Patrick Freyne reviews the debate.
posted by TwoWordReview at 7:35 AM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


I can't imagine the Clinton camp would go through all this production and work with Machado and not know about her past. You don't have Clinton be that prepped for the debates and drop that kind of ball. I have to conclude that they decided to take the risk to gain the Latinx vote. And assuming they went in with eyes wide open, I also assume they have a ready response if they deem it even necessary.

Foggy pre-coffee thought... maybe it also serves as a small signal to Latinx voters: got a colorful past? You're still a person worthy of respect and who can make valuable contributions to society, and we want you with us.
posted by palomar at 7:36 AM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'll take a 4 point swing.

Ok, but where's the Justinian Panic Level? That's the bellwether metric, right?
posted by nubs at 7:40 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]




I badly want the next debate to just be the moderator asking the candidates to define key terms or phrases from American history, civics, or policy. Live. Imagine Trump trying to stumble his way through "detente" or "the Separation of Powers Doctrine" or "hub and spoke vs. multilateral relationships."
posted by KathrynT at 7:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


I realize I'm way late to the party, but Corb, first off a big thank you for providing insight into conservative thinking for us lefties over here.

And, if you don't mind trying to explain Republican thinking again, I'd appreciate it. If not, no hard feelings. I realize your time is valuable and you've got more pressing things to do than spoon feed me info.

I disagree with, but think I understand, the reasoning you explained for why Republicans mostly find a progressive tax system to be unacceptable. Equal taxes for all, ok.

But I'm baffled by the idea that Republicans would gladly accept a very rich person paying less in taxes than they do.

Like, really?

When it came out that Mitt Romney had paid 14% or less of his income in taxes, I though for sure that would rile up even the least class aware Republicans. To me resentment of a very rich person paying less in taxes than I do seems like it would be near universal. Are you saying that isn't actually the case and that among the Republicans you know they'd view the rich person paying less taxes than they do as laudable, or evidence of the rich person being smarter than them, or something?

If I'm understanding right, can you offer any speculation about why that might be? Aspirationa desire to one day be the rich guy who evades taxes? Just world? Prosperity Gospel? Seething hatred of all things socialist leading to an inversion of socialist values so that if socialism says rich people should say more therefore they believe rich people should pay less?
posted by sotonohito at 7:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]




wouldn't it bother you that he is plainly not intellectually or temperamentally up to the job, and has to be constantly propped up by a large team of people in order to seem even tenuously competent?

It's common knowledge Republican-side that Trump just wants the prestige, and he will be delegating most of his governance to Pence.
posted by corb at 7:50 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


‘The pot can’t call the kettle black’: Whoopi Goldberg shreds Trump for hinting at Clinton adultery:
Going bit by bit through the debate, Mook was asked if Clinton was prepared to address Trump should he bring up former President Bill Clinton’s affairs as the GOP nominee hinted late Tuesday night.

“She’s tough she’s ready to talk about any thing,” Mook replied. “You know for me. This election is about families it’s about how our kids get a good education it’s about how we all get quality health care it’s how we create more jobs get wages rising. How in the world has bringing that up help us talk about those issues?”

‘But here’s the thing,” Goldberg began as she jumped in. “The pot cannot call the kettle black, okay. Because, on one hand, you’re talking about her husband. That’s not her, she didn’t transgress! So bringing that up only opens another can of worms that I’m pretty sure you don’t want to open up.”
posted by palindromic at 7:50 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


yasaman: Paraphrased from this tumblr post: she called him Donald right from the start, which reminds everyone that he doesn't have a fancy title, implies a familiarity he would inevitably bristle at, and most importantly, denies the power of his Trump brand. At just about every step, she baited him perfectly, bringing up things she knew he would be proud of but that would play as unsympathetic with a lot of voters.

Oh man, I cannot get enough of these articles/posts that go into detail about how brilliantly the Clinton team and Hillary herself played him. It was really masterful and I am filled with glee every time I read details about just how masterful it was!

If y'all have more along these lines, please share!
posted by aka burlap at 7:51 AM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


WaPo: Trump committed a huge mistake this week, and Democrats will troll him mercilessly on it

"Top Democrats say they’re planning to escalate their attacks on one of the most glaring missteps Donald Trump committed during the debate on Monday night: When confronted over whether he pays nothing in federal taxes, he not only didn’t deny it — he seemed to openly boast about it...

...The goal isn’t just to use this moment to further undercut Trump’s claims to caring about the less fortunate, and to twist the knife on his refusal to release the returns. Another key aim is to try to bait Trump into committing more missteps just like this one. The idea that, when Trump is confronted with the various ways he gamed the system to benefit himself, he simply can’t help but take credit for doing so, since to him, being seen as a winner at all costs — regardless of the means — is paramount."

The article includes a new attack ad on taxes.
posted by chris24 at 7:52 AM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


Either the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats, thereby making white Republicans less relevant" is real or it isn't. If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests

They could also try to change their policies such as to appeal to a changing demographic. That is in fact how democratic elections are supposed to work.

But instead they disenfranchise people.

Because they're racist.
posted by emjaybee at 7:52 AM on September 28, 2016 [60 favorites]


Seth Meyers: Debate Fallout: A Closer Look

Includes a flat reading of Trump's "cyber" answer from the debate.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:01 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


You're assuming white and minority interests are automatically at cross purposes. And projecting that future Latinx voters will vote similar to current trends is hardly racist.

It's not hard or the least bit racist to project future voting trends when one party has for years pandered to racists and now has released it from dog whistle territory into just say it bluntly and loudly territory.

It's just like saying you know I'm fairly certain that this person over there is really not likely to vote for a party who thinks they're shit and lets them know that in so many different ways. And now they've even got a Presidential candidate who thinks they're shit and doesn't even bother to try to pretend he doesn't. Kinda a no brainer that one.


This party that now has rallies that are being condoned by the party muckity mucks on down that consistently have a bunch party faithfulls (eg mostly white people) cheering for you to get the fuck out of your own country. Because that's what the underlying message is of Trump and his supporters. They don't want people they don't like in the country or around them at all. And yes maybe they'll tolerate you cause you're already here but you follow all the 'rules' they set out(or you're gone), don't get too(or stop) freakin uppity and demand too much. We're going to cut off stuff that you do get because you don't deserve it like our (white) people do. And if you do act up and don't behave we're going to law and order you till you do. Oh and also please do sex and relationships and family and community exactly how we lay out, else your values won't match ours and you're out.

This is the level that Trump has taken the GOP too and the people that haven't deserted them beyond the ones who are hanging in to fight against it from the inside(lost cause in my opinion) are condoning this message.

So yeah not really hard to project the trend continuing, unless the Democratic party goes the same route which if that happens the country will be fucked up beyond saving anyways.
posted by Jalliah at 8:02 AM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


I was thinking if Trump somehow wins this, Canada should start to decouple itself from the US politically and economically (we can't do it geographically, unfortunately), because it would be a sign that the US is no longer a world leading nation in anything other than military might, no longer a rational state actor, and its decline as a functioning democracy is accelerating.
I mean, just the fact that it's this close is already a sign that America is over and done, but we have to avoid being taken down with it.
Our noisy downstairs neighbours are starting to burn their furniture and remove the load-bearing walls. We need to find a new apartment.
posted by rocket88 at 8:03 AM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


I put up my Hillary sign yesterday and now stuff is missing from my porch. Boooooooo.
posted by mochapickle at 8:03 AM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Heaven help us all if he decides to attend the vice presidential debate to 'watch'.

Idk, it'd be cool to see Kaine debate Pence and Trump at the same time.
posted by asteria at 8:04 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Either the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats, thereby making white Republicans less relevant" is real or it isn't. If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests. If it's not real, the Democrats are actually being kind of racist themselves by assuming that minorities will vote for them, as if they're not capable of making individual choices. Which is it?

What emjaybee said, but also... you know that racist self-interest is still racist, right? I mean I've heard all kinds of crazy justifications for what's not racist (But I'm not racist in my soul!!!1), but this is a new one. Self-interest is like the whole point and root of racism. There's no, like, rule that you have to take pure selfless joy in kicking minorities down in a way that doesn't benefit you.

Plus if your ideas depend on disenfranchising entire demographics, they might suck. Just sayin.
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:06 AM on September 28, 2016 [40 favorites]


like...she's shown her hand and now they know what to expect from her so they can prep Trump to be ready!

It doesn't matter, because the Trump camp is playing catch-up now. They're preparing this week for last week's debate. Clinton's team probably prepared for next week's debate two months ago, and is now preparing for the first midterms.

So, maybe Trump shows up in his suit and red power tie, armed with facts and figures he half-way remembers, and can half-way connect them to the correct talking points. Then Clinton shows up with a warm smile and kind eyes, meets people on their own ground, and shows that she empathizes with their concerns like a decent human being, which is the one thing Trump can't fake.

I'm not saying that's 100% how it's going to go down -- but do keep in mind that Clinton is smarter and more adaptable than Trump, and her team has proven repeatedly that they're thinking 10 moves ahead. A debate they've known about for months is not going to catch them off guard.
posted by invincible summer at 8:10 AM on September 28, 2016 [35 favorites]


rocket88 - that doesn't make much sense when canada is making efforts to get closer to china, does it? i mean, they're pretty similar to how you paint trump / usa and you're not running away from them.
posted by andrewcooke at 8:11 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


rocket88: I was thinking if Trump somehow wins this, Canada should start to decouple itself from the US politically and economically (we can't do it geographically, unfortunately)

You could build a... I mean, dig a moat.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:12 AM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


From what I understand, the dude is actually physically imposing.

So are horses.
 
posted by Herodios at 8:12 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Imagine if the debate was between Jill Stein on the left and John McCain on the right.

If Stein were running a race-baiting campaign, talking about using nukes, and promising to put millions of people in detention camps? I'd pull that lever so hard for McCain it might break off.
posted by EarBucket at 8:13 AM on September 28, 2016 [60 favorites]


This just occurred to me out of nowhere. Donald Trump is Frank Booth.
posted by Brainy at 8:13 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


It occurred to me yesterday, eight years too late, that Mitt Romney is basically Silver Age Batman villain The Penguin.
posted by Shepherd at 8:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


but do keep in mind that Clinton is smarter and more adaptable than Trump, and her team has proven repeatedly that they're thinking 10 moves ahead.

She and her team anticipated that he would say something sexist, and she was ready and waiting with the Miss Universe story, not only able to pivot smoothly into it and name drop Machado, but had the full campaign ad featuring her ready to launch within minutes. That's preparation on a scale Trump's team can't even dream of.
posted by phunniemee at 8:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [59 favorites]


Dara Lind at Vox: How Hillary Clinton lured Donald Trump’s sexism out into the open:
I spent much of the debate in that state of uncertainty; any reaction I had was quickly second-guessed and pulled back, as I asked myself, “But is that what everyone else in America sees?” Halfway through the debate, I had no idea who I thought would win — because I had no idea how America would respond to a woman who was willing to take the upper hand.

My uncertainty isn’t because it’s unprecedented for a woman to be onstage answering questions at a presidential debate. It’s because I’m all too used to having to look at myself two ways: not only at what I’m doing, objectively, but at how it’s coming off to others.

It’s a perverse way to watch a presidential debate — holding my own feelings and judgments of a candidate in abeyance as I try to control for the presumed sexism of the American public. It’s an even more perverse way to go through life.
posted by palindromic at 8:20 AM on September 28, 2016 [37 favorites]




I fucking HOPE Trump tries to bring up Bill's infidelity. Lord. Oh, something her husband did 20 years ago, WHICH TRUMP IS ALSO KNOWN TO HAVE DONE, disqualifies HER from the presidency but not HIM? Being cheated on means you can't be president, but doing the cheating yourself is a-ok? It is literally the stupidest thing he could possibly say.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 AM on September 28, 2016 [66 favorites]


@ThePracticalDev: The Art of the Cyber
posted by valetta at 8:21 AM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


"She and her team anticipated that he would say something sexist, and she was ready and waiting with the Miss Universe story, not only able to pivot smoothly into it and name drop Machado, but had the full campaign ad featuring her ready to launch within minutes."

The Daily 202: Trump stumbles into Clinton’s trap by feuding with Latina beauty queen has that situation in glorious detail.

This is the kind of thing that gives me hope. If this explosion surprise is what she had planned for the first debate then I can only (gleefully) assume she's got bigger and better waiting for the next.
posted by komara at 8:22 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


It is literally the stupidest thing he could possibly say.

"We attack ISIS with hummus."
posted by Etrigan at 8:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


For tax commentary, let's check in with Wesley Snipes
posted by strange chain at 8:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


They could also try to change their policies such as to appeal to a changing demographic.

Or the alternative: Persuade them to your way of thinking! But if you haven't been able to persuade the vast majority of Latinx and Black voters that you're the best people to be in charge, you should really start considering that the policies you're proposing are not the best ones. Plenty of the people on the Mexican side of my family have skewed more conservative, but if my dad were still alive, he'd be voting Johnson this year, I'm 100% positive . My dad believed in pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, despite the fact that his entire life, that never worked for him. It frustrated me to no end, but I will say that there are ways for conservatives to reach Mexican-Americans But those ways are not the way the GOP is going in its attempt to cling to the base, and that was true even pre-Trump.
posted by Sequence at 8:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


they're just looking out for their interests

Dude, this white person's interests are virtually 100% aligned with those of people of color. If you fix racial inequality in this country, you'll have the knock-on effect of fixing class inequality too, and that will benefit me. It's true that I would literally not receive reparations for slavery, or benefit from scholarships aimed at new immigrants, or have my life made easier by all official paperwork being multilingual, etc, but virtually every other kind of policy - more progressive taxes, social safety net, improvements to poor neighborhoods, more worker protections, etc - would benefit me enormously.

It is racism that prevents working class white people from understanding that while we benefit materially from racism to a degree, we would benefit enormously more in a society that ended racial inequality.
posted by Frowner at 8:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [165 favorites]


In fact, this is why elites tend to foment racism among white people - it keeps us from threatening them by making us obsess about staying above people of color.
posted by Frowner at 8:25 AM on September 28, 2016 [75 favorites]


But I'm baffled by the idea that Republicans would gladly accept a very rich person paying less in taxes than they do.


While corb is surely off doing something better with her time than hanging out in the election thread, I'm happy to be a bit of a Republican-whisperer.

If you believe in supply-side economics, wealthier people keeping more of their money means that there's more of an opportunity for that money to be used for job-creation etc.... The $800 or whatever you'd save with a lower tax rate is peanuts compared to the millions that would (theoretically) be pumped into the economy if rich people paid less in taxes.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:25 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ezra Klein: The first debate featured an unprepared man repeatedly shouting over a highly prepared woman:
The first presidential debate featured a man who didn’t know what he was talking about repeatedly shouting over a woman who was extraordinarily prepared.

The debate was a collision between Donald Trump’s politics of dominance and Hillary Clinton’s politics of preparation.

Clinton’s politics of preparation won.

Trump did his best, to be fair. He interrupted Clinton 25 times in the debate’s first 26 minutes. He talked over both her and moderator Lester Holt with ease. But the show of dominance quickly ran into a problem: Trump would shout over his interlocutors only to prove he had nothing to say.
posted by palindromic at 8:25 AM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]


Trump is dumb enough to:

1) Bring up Bill's infidelity as if it had any baring on Sec Clinton
2) Believe she would not have a perfect riposte ready
3) Ask for praise for not stooping to such a dumb attack
4) Go and make the attack at a later date, without the element of surprise and possibly catching her off guard

I am so excited for this next debate everyone - we might watch yam man self-immolate in real time!
posted by Tevin at 8:25 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Either the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats, thereby making white Republicans less relevant" is real or it isn't. If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests.

It's not racist to oppose "group X is pushing my group's interests out of the spotlight and making them harder to get implemented"... unless "my group's interests" are, in fact, a pack of racist oppression tactics.

We do see this in minority communities, in intersectional politics. Different minority groups struggle to get media attention and political support; those who belong to multiples of those groups often feel caught between conflicting or at least disparate goals. But there's a big difference between "should we push for raising the minimum wage or better health care coverage first" vs "should we insist on equal pay for equal work or... not; should we allow people to display signs of non-Christian religion in public or... not?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:27 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


If I had to guess at her prepped response to a possible Bill's-infidelity dig, I imagine it won't be nasty at all. Her whole thing is contrasting herself against the nastiness. I'm picturing something like "I was wondering when you'd decide to bring that up" followed by something like "We worked through it and are stronger than ever now - I'm sure you understand that, since after all, we both know how complicated marriage can be." Not directly framing his multiple marriages as a bad thing, but making it clear that Trump of all people cannot throw stones here.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [39 favorites]


But I'm baffled by the idea that Republicans would gladly accept a very rich person paying less in taxes than they do.


I'm baffled too. Here's the problem and cognitive dissonance on the part of the Republicans which has bothered me since the Bush Administration. The Republicans love the military. Every year, they want to increase the Defense budget and act terrified about our impending doom if even the slightest cuts are proposed. Republicans (as a whole; I know there are several non-interventionists on the right) seem to love their wars.

All of this shit is very, very expensive. If they keep cutting taxes and eliminating taxes, who's going to pay for it? Why admire those who don't pay taxes when those taxes will pay for bombs, aircraft carriers and SEAL teams? If they were being consistent, Republicans should consider those who shirk taxes as traitors, since fewer taxes will mean either fewer bombs or a higher national debt.
posted by honestcoyote at 8:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [21 favorites]


I fucking HOPE Trump tries to bring up Bill's infidelity. Lord. Oh, something her husband did 20 years ago, WHICH TRUMP IS ALSO KNOWN TO HAVE DONE, disqualifies HER from the presidency but not HIM?

If the morning shows are any indication, this is exactly what they're doing, at least among his surrogates. Considering that he and two of his top surrogates have nine marriages between them, with both of those surrogates having cheated on wives undergoing cancer treatment, this is an...interesting tack to go with. Of course, he winner of the "the fucking gall of that guy" competition goes to Rudy Giuliani, who has repeated both this charge and the claim that Bill was flaunting it, despite the fact that he literally trotted out his mistress (and future wife) for the national and NYC press for months.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:32 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


That's a good article, palindromic.
Point to invisible sexism, and you’ll be accused of seeing things. Lure sexism out into the open — like Clinton did in tonight’s debate — and you could be accused of acting manipulatively, deliberately provoking bad behavior.

That accusation wouldn’t be unfair. But in a leader — in a potential president — that sort of negotiating gambit seems clever and strategic. In a woman, it seems vindictive and weak. It’s just another way the two are set at diametric opposites.

The result is that it is women ourselves who are supposed to know the line between covert and overt sexism. And inevitably, that means a tremendous amount of second-guessing and doubting our instincts. Can I be sure that was because I’m a woman, or was it something I did wrong? Shoot, did that come off the way I intended it to? I know the other women in the room saw what just happened, but did the men see it too?
YES, fantastic points about women being expected to know exactly where to draw the line between overt and covert sexism and thread the needle of how we're supposed to treat each. Because it's not enough that we have to put up with the actual sexism: we have to be the ones to deal with it in just exactly the right way, without making people uncomfortable or giving them ammunition that we're making it up. Walking that tightrope is beyond exhausting.

On top of everything else she has going through her, this alone makes me confident that Clinton may be one of the toughest people to ever run for the Presidency. She has to do all of this extra work on top of everything else. It's not fair, and she knows it, and she's doing it anyway.
posted by Salieri at 8:32 AM on September 28, 2016 [44 favorites]


The Republicans love the military. Every year, they want to increase the Defense budget and act terrified about our impending doom if even the slightest cuts are proposed. Republicans (as a whole; I know there are several non-interventionists on the right) seem to love their wars.

They love war and they love the military-industrial complex, the companies who supply the military. Vote after vote on pay for soldiers and funding for veterans demonstrates that they have a deep loathing of the actual human beings who comprise the military.

Which is no surprise, being as those people work for a living.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:34 AM on September 28, 2016 [58 favorites]


She and her team anticipated that he would say something sexist, and she was ready and waiting with the Miss Universe story, not only able to pivot smoothly into it and name drop Machado

So here's the thing I find fascinating with that; it wasn't that Hillary "Prepared" Clinton had that ready to go; it was Donald's reaction: "Where did you find this? Where did you find this?"

Maybe I read too many cheap legal thrillers, but that's a really bad reaction. Like somebody just dug up evidence you thought was well buried.
posted by nubs at 8:38 AM on September 28, 2016 [66 favorites]


The idea that if rich people were allowed to keep more of their money that they would invest more of it in productive uses is both an incorrect reading of standard economic theory and has been shown empirically to be false over and over.

The simple fact of the matter is that money has a declining marginal utility at least in respect to personal wealth. You simply don't get twice the utility of having 2 cars as you have having 1 car for instance. In theory the excess capital not being used for consumption by the wealthy could be used to provide investment capital in new or expanded business but it's not clear that demand would actually keep up with increased supply and it's pretty clear that both at the personal and corporate level vast sums of money are basically being unused.

In contrast each dollar given in tax relief to the poor or as a cash subsidy tends to be recycled immediately into the economy. Witness the increase to the economy every year as EITC checks come back to taxpayers.

If conservatives were serious about the idea of growing the economy they'd actually spend less time trying to cut taxes for the ultrarich and more time trying to cut taxes for low income workers or providing cash transfer payments. But the reality is that the modern Republican party really focuses most of it's time courting donor dollars and donors tend to be the rich and ultra-rich. This creates a massive distortion on Republican economic policies.
posted by vuron at 8:38 AM on September 28, 2016 [40 favorites]


The hot take you didn't know you needed on Trump's debate performance.
posted by pxe2000 at 8:39 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


He was just so blatantly obviously high.

Prophetic mumbling and orange-hued skin are the inevitable consequences of the daily, heroic doses of spice he needs to be accepted by the sandtrout.
posted by mubba at 8:40 AM on September 28, 2016 [33 favorites]


This piece by Saul Isaac says some great things about the process of changing your view of candidates this cycle. It might be useful as a talking point if you're in a discussion with someone who's lukewarm about Secretary Clinton. I wish we could get the article wider exposure.
posted by Silverstone at 8:41 AM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


"I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you concerned I might have extramarital affairs when I'm President?" [grins at camera] "You flatter me, Donald."

[fake, SO FAR.]
posted by invincible summer at 8:41 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


it was Donald's reaction: "Where did you find this? Where did you find this?"

That was super great, because it also reaffirms that he's laboring under the assumption that everyone loves him.

I would love love love for Clinton at the next debate, or at a rally or something, to say "Ok, everyone, show of hands. Who here has ever felt personally victimized by Regina George Donald Trump."

The guy has left a trail of people in his wake. I can't imagine finding people willing to speak to his abuse (NDAs notwithstanding) is even remotely hard.
posted by phunniemee at 8:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


If I had to guess at her prepped response to a possible Bill's-infidelity dig, I imagine it won't be nasty at all. Her whole thing is contrasting herself against the nastiness.

Actually, I would love to see her get nasty during one of the debates, just once, very briefly, just to prove the point that she can do it—and that unlike Trump, she has the self-control to flick it on and off like a lightswitch, to use it tactically rather than just lashing out at random. I know she has it in her.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:44 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


The Choice, Frontline's documentary about the two contenders is up and interesting to watch. I only got thru the first half last night, but it really shows Hillary and Bill as a couple and the chance she took leaving DC after the Watergate Hearings to go to Arkansas for love.

And cut from policy wonking and working on children's issues in Arkansas to disco music thumping while DJT is living the bachelor life in NYC, finally settling on his first model wife.
posted by readery at 8:46 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


My one disappointment in the first debate was when DJT was criticizing NAFTA as the worst trade deal ever, HRC responded with 'That is your opinion' when she could have won the internet forever by saying, 'Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.'
posted by palindromic at 8:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [21 favorites]


Maybe I read too many cheap legal thrillers, but that's a really bad reaction. Like somebody just dug up evidence you thought was well buried.

What makes this extra funny is that his humiliation of Ms. Michado was on-camera, by using TV reporters. The opposite of burying.
posted by emjaybee at 8:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Either the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats, thereby making white Republicans less relevant" is real or it isn't. If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests. If it's not real, the Democrats are actually being kind of racist themselves by assuming that minorities will vote for them, as if they're not capable of making individual choices. Which is it?

Wow.

As has been said above, self-interested racism is still racism. How is that a difficult concept to understand.
posted by winna at 8:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [27 favorites]


Hey, vuron, I didn't say it was true or that I believed it! Just that that's what the party line is. And I think we're all aware that facts have a noted liberal bias.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:51 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


HRC responded with 'That is your opinion' when she could have won the internet forever by saying, 'Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.'

Bonus points if she worked in a " Trump's rug really brings the room together" crack.
posted by nubs at 8:54 AM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


It is literally the stupidest thing he could possibly say.

Which is of course exactly why they will do it. #TrumpsRazor
posted by chris24 at 8:55 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I made a question on that town hall site about saying hello in non-English languages. Seems basic, although I know it's clearly biased toward one side.
posted by lauranesson at 8:56 AM on September 28, 2016


I would also welcome a well-placed 'Cool story, bro.'
posted by palindromic at 8:57 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Donald's reaction: "Where did you find this? Where did you find this?"


It's been pointed out that Trump looks like the villain from a movie where the hero is a dog. This is the reaction you can imagine that villain having in the third act when the dog trots into the room, the crucial evidence to sink his nefarious plots clenched firmly between its teeth.
posted by EarBucket at 9:02 AM on September 28, 2016 [45 favorites]


It is racism that prevents working class white people from understanding that while we benefit materially from racism to a degree, we would benefit enormously more in a society that ended racial inequality.
Frowner at 10:23

Mods: can I have more favorites for this comment plz?
posted by strange chain at 9:03 AM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Maybe I read too many cheap legal thrillers, but that's a really bad reaction.

Sometimes it seems like Donald's thought process is "I should say this, it'll make for good TV" even when it hurts him.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:05 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm 3 for 3 getting an aggression every day since I put my Clinton/Kaine magnet on my car this weekend.

I'm really sorry you went through this. I hope it helps a bit to think of all the encouraged smiles from the drivers you couldn't have seen.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:06 AM on September 28, 2016 [25 favorites]


Fred Clark: ‘The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers’:
That quote from Shakespeare’s 2 Henry VI hung on a plaque in my dad’s law office. Dad knew that many people saw it as just another lawyer joke, as an expression of contempt for his profession. But he also knew what the quote really meant in context. The character saying that, Dick the Butcher, was plotting treason. Shakespeare and Dick both understood that such plots could only succeed if they eliminated the “lawyers” who would deem them illegitimate. By putting those words in the mouth of Dick the Butcher, Shakespeare was commending lawyers as arbiters of law, legitimacy and truth.

Beware of anyone who wants to eliminate all arbiters of law, legitimacy, and truth. Beware of anyone who dismisses law, or fact-checking, or academics, or science, or data. If they see those arbiters as a threat, then they likely see truth and reality as an obstacle. They’re probably trying to lead you somewhere unreal.

Conservative AM talk radio host Charlie Sykes has come to regret playing along with Dick the Butcher’s plan now that decades of killing all the lawyers has eliminated any need to correlate words with reality.
posted by palindromic at 9:08 AM on September 28, 2016 [47 favorites]


Mika: Alicia Machado Comments 'Cut To The Core' | Morning Joe | MSNBC

It's interesting how the narrative of a debate is so plastic in the day or so afterwards. The Machado story certainly seems to have come to the front. (Helped along by Donald doubling down.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:08 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


You pay taxes that pay for the police that protect Trump's properties. He doesn't think he has to. You pay for the schools that educate his employees. He doesn't think he has to. You pay for the court systems he uses to sue his building contractors and anyone who insults him. He doesn't think he has to. You pay for national security and veterans' services. He doesn't think he has to.

How does this not bother hard-working conservatives?
posted by rocket88 at 9:09 AM on September 28, 2016 [79 favorites]


Sam Wang: Post-debate pundit spin lives up to its promise:
I have little to say about last night’s debate, except to point out that based on polls of undecided and independent voters, Clinton was seen as scoring a convincing win against Donald Trump. This feeling is echoed by one-third of Republicans, which is pretty bad – as well as Rudy Giuliani, Brit Hume, Megyn Kelly, and other GOP bloviators. Oh, and Stormfront. Seems clear-cut.

What will happen next? Before the debate, I used regression to the mean to suggest that in the absence of other information, opinion is expected to move toward Clinton. We should have some national and state polls by Friday. Until then, ponder what value is added by pundit opinions.
posted by palindromic at 9:15 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Donald Trump Is Owning Hillary Clinton on Trade-Trump doesn't know what he's talking about, but his message is resonating in key states.

Part of the problem for Clinton is that Trump is making fantastical political promises here. He has not only claimed that he can stop the flow of manufacturing jobs overseas, but that he can bring them back, which no credible economist believes. It’s not going to happen, and the fact that Trump is making an Edenic and deeply cynical promise should be used against him. But saying otherwise means telling the voters who find this promise appealing that they need to suck it up and accept their lot in life, something that would not be a good strategy from any politician, but especially not from the wife of the man who signed NAFTA.

Most of all, Clinton needs to say something that makes it seem like she actually cares about people who blame NAFTA and free trade for the problems in their communities. “That’s just your opinion” doesn’t do that. Acknowledging that America needs to help the losers in free trade deals, even as the country benefits from it, is a politically risky but ultimately worthwhile strategy. At the same time, she needs to make it clear that there are good jobs that aren’t in manufacturing—most people in the country work in them!—and that she is not going to sell you a bunch of crap about bringing the 1950s back. Instead she should describe her plans for creating better, and better-paying, jobs for people in places like Ohio and Pennsylvania.

posted by T.D. Strange at 9:15 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sia: #ImWithHer #Stamina #TheGreatest
posted by Akhu at 9:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests.

That's part of the party line. But there was a contrary voice in the GOP (strongly tied to GWB and Jeb!) that wanted to appeal to the socially conservative, family-driven, entrepreneurial side of immigrant and non-white communities, in the same way that suburban white Catholics grew more Republican over time. Can't do that when the base demands you call South Asians terrorists and Spanish-speakers illegals. So it's a self-defeating posture, because it creates obstacles to generational assimilation towards nationwide political affiliations.
posted by holgate at 9:20 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


You pay.... He doesn't think he has to.

How does this not bother hard-working conservatives?


Temporarily embarrassed millionaires, going on strong for 240 years now.
posted by Etrigan at 9:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


But I'm baffled by the idea that Republicans would gladly accept a very rich person paying less in taxes than they do.

My husband, the anarchist, likes to tell a joke a lot: that there are two types of people who look up at mansions on the hill - those who say, "Someday, I'm going to own that", and those, who say, "Someday, I'm going to get that bastard."

And it's crude, but there's a lot there. Do you want to aspire that someday, your grandchildren can have houses on the hill, to protect them and keep them in comfort that no man can take away? Or do you want to pull the houses on the hill down now so that today, you can have more to eat, but with no guarantee it will last? It's not as simple as it appears on the surface, even leaving aside the moral question of "is it right to pull down the house in the first place?"

I think there's a similar divide in "I want that guy's taxes to be as high/low as mine." Do you want his to increase? Or yours to lower? Some people want the former, others want the latter.
posted by corb at 9:24 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary Clinton Saved the Bombshells for Round 2:
"She hardly had to scratch the surface to win the first contest—and there’s plenty more dirt where that stuff came from."
posted by chris24 at 9:26 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


The New York Times Book Review of Volker Ullrich's Hitler: Ascent 1889-1939 never mentions Trump by name, but it doesn't have to.

WaPo makes the subtext text.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [59 favorites]


I have no numbers to back up this opinion, but given the other evidence that Trump's base isn't actually poor, it fees like the trade claims and cries about NAFTA are just a less deplorable way of voicing their distaste for brown people.
posted by strange chain at 9:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Anyone who works for Trump is craven.

I would not beat up on anyone who worked at one of his businesses as a regular job. The hotel staff, the paper-pushers, all that stuff -- people need jobs, y'know? People need a paycheck.



My lifelong friend A person I used to know worked on The Apprentice for many seasons. His claim was that everyone working for the show was expected to support Donald. I don't know if that's true or if it is what he told me to excuse his turning from a know nothing into a more active MRA, racist, politically vile birther. He adored Donald because he believed all the WINNER stuff in his heart. He claimed that was the general environment of the workplace as well.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 9:29 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I agree that we need to have a jobs conversation that isn't focused on manufacturing, but I was surprised that Clinton didn't pursue the attack of where Trump's ugly ties are made in the exchange on trade. Here's a guy who immediately could have brought manufacturing jobs to America, but decided to go overseas.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


How does this not bother hard-working conservatives?

The debate just happened. Reactions to it have yet to be fully represented in the polls. But also:attitudes towards taxes are complicated. Frankly, if Trump is clever enough to pay as little as possible in taxes, bully for him. Not for any fraud, of course - that's criminal - but if you can find the holes in the tax code, congrats for being clever. Don't hate the player, hate the game. (Trump loves the game.)
posted by Going To Maine at 9:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The New York Times Book Review of Volker Ullrich's Hitler: Ascent 1889-1939 never mentions Trump by name, but it doesn't have to.

lol/augh
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:31 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think there's a similar divide in "I want that guy's taxes to be as high/low as mine." Do you want his to increase? Or yours to lower?

The mansion owner should have higher taxes because he owes even more to the society that has made him so wealthy. If all the rich paid their fair share, there wouldn't be much of a gutter to pull them down to.
posted by asteria at 9:32 AM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


I think there's a similar divide in "I want that guy's taxes to be as high/low as mine." Do you want his to increase? Or yours to lower? Some people want the former, others want the latter.

This zero-sum analogy fails to account for the diminishing marginal utility of wealth, whereby the same amount of money given to the person in the mansion does far less to improve their life than it does for the people looking up from below.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:33 AM on September 28, 2016 [31 favorites]


Of course, he winner of the "the fucking gall of that guy" competition goes to Rudy Giuliani, who has repeated both this charge and the claim that Bill was flaunting it, despite the fact that he literally trotted out his mistress (and future wife) for the national and NYC press for months.

I'll never be able to forget the taxpayer resources Rudy used while conducting his affair. Wasn't the reason the NYC emergency response center was located at WTC #7 so that he could fuck his girlfriend conveniently in his suite there and save on hotel bills?
posted by mikelieman at 9:35 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh man, go read that Hitler book review, for real
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:37 AM on September 28, 2016 [29 favorites]


Frankly, if Trump is clever enough to pay as little as possible in taxes, bully for him. Not for any fraud, of course - that's criminal - but if you can find the holes in the tax code, congrats for being clever. Don't hate the player, hate the game. (Trump loves the game.)

Given donnie's known violations of tax law establish probable cause to believe violations exist in other filings,

PROVE all of donnie's filings comply with the tax laws of all authorities having jurisdiction. Show all work.
posted by mikelieman at 9:37 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's interesting how the narrative of a debate is so plastic in the day or so afterwards. The Machado story certainly seems to have come to the front. (Helped along by Donald doubling down.)

It's especially interesting because Trump attacking Bill Clinton as a victimizer of women through his adultery and Hillary as an accomplice once Bill's affairs were public. I think the Machado story blunts that attack to the point where I don't see how Trump can bring up Bill/Clintons as victimizers of women in a debate now. And, yet, Trump gave much more play to that story by doubling down! Even if he were a candidate who didn't have abhorrent opinions and plans, his campaign is so undisciplined and poorly run, I can't imagine what a disaster his presidency would be.
posted by gladly at 9:38 AM on September 28, 2016


The mansion owner should have higher taxes because he owes even more

The thing is - moral questions like the ones you guys are expressing have their roots in ideologies. It's possible for good, kind people to hold justified true beliefs that differ on moral questions, that's why they're so tricky, especially in the political realm. Should differences exist? Should there be a limit on those differences, or the expression of those differences? How big should it be, if so? These are not quantifiable questions that once the facts get exposed, reasonable, good people will all instantly agree. These are the most difficult questions of human existence, that people who spend all their time on philosophy and morality have not managed to agree on. Given that, it's completely unreasonable to expect the American electorate to do so.
posted by corb at 9:39 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Desi Lydic on The Daily Show's What the Actual Fact? last night:

Desi: "Trump is trying to claim that the things he said about women are facts that everyone would agree on, but they're clearly his own opinions. Like my opinion is that Donald Trump is a thin-skinned, upside-down traffic cone filled with bile and overcooked steak, a transparent con artist whose only answer for America is, "What would happen if Gordon Gekko fucked Snooki and they had a micro-fingered reality TV baby?" A man whose face is so red and swollen it looks like his skin is allergic to facts, you tangerine-tinted sack of shit."
Trevor: "Wow... Desi, that was mean. A tangerine-tinted sack of shit?"
Desi: "What? Me? No, I never said that."
posted by numaner at 9:40 AM on September 28, 2016 [54 favorites]


Dude was 5am in the club geeked. I've been at plenty of after hours things where most of the people weren't that high

The New York Times Book Review of Volker Ullrich's Hitler: Ascent 1889-1939 never mentions Trump by name, but it doesn't have to.

Know who else had an amphetamine habit?
posted by uncleozzy at 9:43 AM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Someone asked for a face swap

Here you go
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:44 AM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


This zero-sum analogy fails to account for the diminishing marginal utility of wealth

But that's a difficult conversation to have in the USA, where there's an intangible premium ascribed to inefficient individual economic choices. For instance, if the money spent in total on healthcare were available to a proper universal system, it would be more equitable and still good at the cutting-edge stuff, but people think an afternoon playing phone-tag with their insurance company and providers is worth it to see a specialist at relatively short notice. Or if there was a reliable bus route near your home and sidewalks to get to the stop, you could save money on your commute, but you'd sooner pay to fill up your car three times a week.

Individual wealth in this context translates into "fuck you money": specifically, having a buffer that enables people to say "fuck you" to broken bits of social infrastructure because they can provide for it themselves. Of course there's an argument from the left to say that if we collectively fix that infrastructure you won't need to have that buffer, but it's a hard one to bootstrap.
posted by holgate at 9:46 AM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


> "His claim was that everyone working for the show was expected to support Donald."

Quite honestly, one of the things that has most surprised me this election is learning that there are many people who took the premise of The Apprentice seriously and did not assume it was a comedy show about self-aggrandizing hateful idiots humiliating themselves for a chance at a fake job offered by another self-aggrandizing hateful idiot.
posted by kyrademon at 9:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [41 favorites]


And it's crude, but there's a lot there. Do you want to aspire that someday, your grandchildren can have houses on the hill, to protect them and keep them in comfort that no man can take away? Or do you want to pull the houses on the hill down now so that today, you can have more to eat, but with no guarantee it will last? It's not as simple as it appears on the surface, even leaving aside the moral question of "is it right to pull down the house in the first place?"

Those houses were built with money stolen from me and mine and from millions, billions of other people, both like and unlike me, who work for a living. They were never the rightful property of their owners in the first place.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [42 favorites]


Those houses were built with money stolen from me and mine and from millions, billions of other people, both like and unlike me, who work for a living. They were never the rightful property of their owners in the first place.

In the mid-fourth century, Basil, the bishop of Caesarea, wrote: "The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry man; the coat hanging in your closet belongs to the man who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the man who has no shoes; the money which you put into the bank belongs to the poor. You do wrong to everyone you could help but fail to help."
posted by EarBucket at 9:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [34 favorites]


The New York Times Book Review of Volker Ullrich's Hitler: Ascent 1889-1939 never mentions Trump by name, but it doesn't have to.

Trump used to keep a book of Hitler's speeches by his bed.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:50 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


if you don't pay your taxes you are not a good or kind person. Full stop, no excuses.
posted by Artw at 9:50 AM on September 28, 2016 [32 favorites]


These are not quantifiable questions that once the facts get exposed, reasonable, good people will all instantly agree. These are the most difficult questions of human existence, that people who spend all their time on philosophy and morality have not managed to agree on.

These are indeed moral questions, but every time someone calls into question the morality of an ideology that accepts and encourages more inequality, you step in to defend them, telling us that these people aren't "moustache-twirling villains", that their heart can be in the right place but they just disagree about the answers to these questions. Aside from the fact that you're not a neutral observer, but in fact an adherent of the same or similar ideology (economics-wise, and minus the racism, of course), this conflation of the positive and normative amounts to a defense of the morality of the ideology that's disguised as a factual disagreement about how the world works. If anyone dares to speak up about the amorality of letting people struggle to get by while others thrive on the interest from their inheritance, you admonish them.

You can't have it both ways. If these are moral questions, others have the right to express their viewpoint on the morality of those who answer those questions in ways that cause harm to others.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:51 AM on September 28, 2016 [38 favorites]


Either the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats, thereby making white Republicans less relevant" is real or it isn't. If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests. If it's not real, the Democrats are actually being kind of racist themselves by assuming that minorities will vote for them, as if they're not capable of making individual choices. Which is it?

If I were to try to summarize the conservative belief on economic topics in a neutral fashion, I might say "government is generally not effective at solving economic problems". This covers fewer regulations, lower taxes, stopping government programs and so on. If I were to try and summarize the conservative belief on social topics, I might say "traditional ways are better; modern culture is too permissive".

If immigrants to the US came primarily from Scandinavia where modern culture is embraced and the government is really effective, then yes, they would be natural Democrats. But most immigrants come from countries with relatively less effective and more corrupt governments, and from countries with stronger traditional values. Pew does global surveys across a number of countries; they survey 6 of the top 10 sources for US immigrants including the top 4 - Mexico, India, China, Philippines plus South Korea and El Salvador.

On economic issues: In 4 of these 6 countries, people are more likely to say that lower taxes would reduce inequality than Americans. In 4 of these 6 countries, residents are more likely to agree that most people are better off under a free market system. That sounds like a group of people who could easily be persuaded that a low-tax, free market approach is better.

On social issues, the trend is even stronger - in terms of what is considered morally unacceptable, more residents in 5 of 6 countries thought that abortion was morally unacceptable than Americans; all 6 countries found homosexuality, contraception use and premarital sex to be more unacceptable than Americans. Their beliefs are right in line with staunch Republicans.

There is no policy based reason to believe that immigrants are inherently Democratic or liberal; however, the Republicans are thunderingly racist and immigrants aren't stupid. The Conservative Party in Canada has historically done a fine job of getting support from immigrants - in 2011 16 of the 29 majority-immigrant ridings elected a Conservative. In 2015, the Conservatives used fear of immigrants and Islamophobia as a desperation campaign strategy and were annihilated in those same areas.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 9:51 AM on September 28, 2016 [37 favorites]


sunset in snow country: "Someone asked for a face swap"

Rhetorically speaking: why would anyone on earth ask for a face swap? Better to put Hillary's face on both bodies. Better still to make images where any pixels that make up part of the sack of shit that Donald Trump calls a body have been removed and replaced with that bright magenta color that was used in GIFs to mark transparent areas.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:56 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


How Hillary Clinton Played Trump for a Fool:
Clinton campaign pre-debate: We’re going to bait Trump and make him lose his cool.

Trump campaign pre-debate: Whatever.

Hillary Clinton: Bait.

Trump: Loses cool.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:03 AM on September 28, 2016 [30 favorites]


Libby Anne: The Green Party's Forgotten Woman Nominee:
The meme features a picture of Jill Stein with the text “This is the first woman to receive her party’s nomination. Don’t buy the Hillary hype.”

I get that not everyone does the whole history thing. What I find disturbing about this meme is not that Jill Stein isn’t the first woman to receive a party’s nomination (literally dozens of women hit that milestone before she did). It’s that she’s not the first woman to win her party’s nomination. The Green Party nomination went to former African American congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2008.
posted by palindromic at 10:06 AM on September 28, 2016 [52 favorites]


There is no policy based reason to believe that immigrants are inherently Democratic or liberal; however, the Republicans are thunderingly racist and immigrants aren't stupid. The Conservative Party in Canada has historically done a fine job of getting support from immigrants - in 2011 16 of the 29 majority-immigrant ridings elected a Conservative. In 2015, the Conservatives used fear of immigrants and Islamophobia as a desperation campaign strategy and were annihilated in those same areas.

Or to put things another way 70% of Muslims voted for George Bush in 2000. Move on four years and 93% of American Muslims voted for John Kerry. What could possibly have changed in those four years?

There is nothing to say that the Hispanic vote naturally gravitates to the Democratic Party. Almost the reverse. But when you have the Republican nominee blathering about building a wall between Mexico and America and saying things about Mexican immgrants and a judge's Mexican heritage they become a natural part of the Democratic coalition not on the grounds they agree with the Democrats, but on the grounds that the Republicans are driving them that way.

Clinton of course is doing Hispanic outreach. Including Machado. But her biggest advert is Donald Trump.
posted by Francis at 10:07 AM on September 28, 2016 [23 favorites]




Oops, sniped.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:10 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


TPM: Obama Calls Out Trump’s Insulting Treatment Of Former Miss Universe (AUDIO)

“You had somebody who basically insulted women and then doubled down I think this morning in terms of how he talks about them and talks about their weight and talks about, you know, how they look instead of the content of their character and their capabilities,” Obama said, “which is not somebody that I want in the Oval Office.”
posted by chris24 at 10:12 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


What I find disturbing about this meme is not that Jill Stein isn’t the first woman to receive a party’s nomination (literally dozens of women hit that milestone before she did).

Okay, seriously, is there anyone here with Green Party experience who can explain to me how Stein stays at the top? Is there literally no one else who bothers? Does she do a lot of ground-level work that keeps people beholden to her? Feel free to MeMail me if you don't want to get into a big discussion in public.
posted by Etrigan at 10:13 AM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


So Republicans are the party of people who get into giant public confrontations at the grocery store because someone is buying a steak or an organic apple or something with a SNAP EBT card, because they believe that money is still somehow "my money" and they are entitled to tell other people who to spend it, but they're fine with picking up the tab for the roads and bridges and schools and bombers that Trump refuses to pay his fair share for?
posted by zachlipton at 10:14 AM on September 28, 2016 [29 favorites]


Ivanka Trump and her brother made the hired help bail out their failed lemonade stand as kids:
Trump recalled in her 2009 book, “The Trump Card,” that her mother would not allow her and her brother to set up their lemonade stand outside their father’s high-rise apartment tower at Fifth Avenue and 57th Street, reported Business Insider’s Rachel Gillett.

“And to do so in the lobby of Trump Tower would have been just a little too precious, don’t you think?” she wrote.

So Ivanka Trump and her brother, Donald Jr., set up a lemonade stand outside their house in Greenwich, Connecticut, and agreed to keep track of the lemonade cost and repay their parents from their proceeds.

“The only trouble with this arrangement was our location — not a typical Trump problem,” she wrote. “We were at the end of a cul-de-sac in an affluent community of spacious homes on sprawling properties. In every other respect, this was a prime spot, but it was a dead zone for aspiring lemonade magnates.”

So the kids copied their father and conned working-class people — specifically, the family’s employees — into covering their poor business failures.
posted by palindromic at 10:14 AM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


A person I used to know worked on The Apprentice for many seasons. His claim was that everyone working for the show was expected to support Donald.

This is how being the "talent" on a TV show works. Whether reality or narrative TV.

While it's not the main reason I don't think Trump is qualified to be President, it is one of the many considerations that jumps out to me, someone who has worked in television for years.

Regular people watch reality TV and assume that the person they see on screen is the person driving the bus, so to speak. It's their show. They are in charge. Right? Au contraire! The Donald Trump you see on The Apprentice is a character, and Donald Trump the person has been hired to play that character. It is the job of everyone else involved with the show to carefully insulate the hired actor D. J. Trump so that his only job is to play the Donald character.

A lot of people who lend their names or famous personas to reality shows get producer credits so that they'll share in the profits of the show or have nominal ownership over their own personal brand. However, they are not doing the day to day work of producing the show. They're not even doing the amount of work that the show depicts them doing.

I would like to think that the President of the United States is the *actual* President, not a carefully shepherded actor given merely one tiny job, that of being the face of the President. It's become apparent through a lot of things Trump and his people have said and done that Donald himself is under the impression that this would be kind of like starring on a TV show, and not really like doing the work of governing a world super power. We've had "actor" Presidents before, like Bush II and Reagan, and at least in my opinion, government becomes less transparent and more cynical during these times. But what's worse about Trump's case is that, in both of those examples, it was pretty clear who exactly was "producing" the show that Reagan and Dubya were mouthpieces for. With Trump, it's a lot less clear. This shouldn't cause us to mock Trump, this should terrify us.
posted by Sara C. at 10:15 AM on September 28, 2016 [47 favorites]


The GOP really can't appeal to Latin@ or black or Muslim people, all of whom are presently extremely alienated from the party. The folks in power are generally themselves bigots who can't imagine why they would, and even if the party were being controlled like a video game character by a disinterested third party who didn't care about white supremacy, they still wouldn't be willing to shed millions of white supremacist votes to gain a small number of votes from people whose lives and prosperity the white supremacist GOP base objects to. Going hard on white supremacy was a profitable maneuver in the 70's and since, but the returns have been diminishing, and will continue to; it was suicidal in the long term.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:16 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


aaaaaaand I just realized that the context for that comment was "support" as in "agree with". Not "do the work of".

Jesus. That's even scarier.
posted by Sara C. at 10:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I get that not everyone does the whole history thing. What I find disturbing about this meme is not that Jill Stein isn’t the first woman to receive a party’s nomination (literally dozens of women hit that milestone before she did). It’s that she’s not the first woman to win her party’s nomination. The Green Party nomination went to former African American congresswoman Cynthia McKinney in 2008.

And this was a huge deal at the time precisely because of all the "zomg are you going to vote your race or your gender" crap that black women were fielding during the primaries and the Green Party was like, hey! You don't have to! Her running mate was also a WOC, Rosa Clemente.

Sigh...
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'll never be able to forget the taxpayer resources Rudy used while conducting his affair. Wasn't the reason the NYC emergency response center was located at WTC #7 so that he could fuck his girlfriend conveniently in his suite there and save on hotel bills?

That's the rumor. Although it was supposed to be staffed 'round the clock so whether that would have been actually possible is anyone's guess.

The argument made at the time was that the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade was hurricane-proof, blast-proof, had advanced communication abilities and a back-up generator, was within walking distance of City Hall and several other agencies, and there were a number of other agencies in the same building (including the Secret Service) who would need to be within close proximity during an emergency. Which, you know, sounds good except for the fact that WTC was a former terrorist target in 1993.

When it was announced, the NYPD sent a lengthy memo detailing why it was a poor place for a command center. After 9/11. when Giuliani was running for President and trying to sell himself as the candidate most experienced with terrorist attacks, he tried to extensively revise his Mayoral history. The truth is, the OEM wasn't put in place to handle a terrorist attack. It was created so that the Mayor could increase his visibility to New Yorkers during times of crisis.
"Several memos, unearthed from the Giuliani archive and going on at great length, reveal that the initial rationale for the agency was "non-law enforcement events," particularly the handling of a Brooklyn water-main break shortly after he took office that the mayor thought had been botched. Before that, in December 1994, when an unemployed computer programmer carried a bomb onto a subway in an extortion plot against the Transit Authority, Giuliani was upset that he couldn't even get a count of patients from the responding services for his press conference.

Jerry Hauer, who was handpicked by Giuliani to head the OEM, testified before the 9/11 Commission that Giuliani was "unable to get the full story" at the firebombing and "heard about the huge street collapse" that followed the water-main break "on TV," adding: "That's what led the mayor to set up OEM."

posted by zarq at 10:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Huh, it's almost as if the GOP doesn't know what the term "Party of Lincoln" means....
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:18 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wow, that book review is on some god tier shade-throwing shizz.

And it doubles as a warning too. Damn.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:18 AM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


so that today, you can have more to eat

I actually have plenty to eat (probably too much given what my scale says every morning). None of this is really about me, personally. But it's really, really upsetting to live in a place, like, say Washington DC where massive wealth and massive poverty co-exist across the street from one another, and one does begin to wonder, what in the actual fuck?

My parents are Objectivists, so I am very familiar with the many fine qualities of people I vehemently disagree with politically. And in their case and I think in the case of some (though not all, by a long shot) superfans of laissez-faire capitalism, the disagreement we're actually having is about human nature. And I find their view to be... charmingly naive? Not evil, just ridiculous. They think that all people deep inside have a perfect, self-made, heroic, Randian hero in them screaming to get out, if only these shackles of government could just be thrown off. Everyone would be perfectly charitable and take care of their own (and everyone magically has a family that doesn't disown them or throw them out or all drop dead of cancer too early in life, I guess?) and be civic-minded and honest and forthright and rationally consider all future consequences of their actions and businesses would all work towards the betterment of society and not kill everyone with e. coli! What a glorious world! Too bad those pesky regulations and taxes and stuff keep getting in the way! Their evidence for this worldview: some novels written by a sociopath in the early 20th century.

Meanwhile, in my reality: people, in the aggregate, kind of suck. We develop a strong social contract backed up by a central government to attempt in some small way to reign in and mitigate the selfish, irrational, short-sighted impulses of humanity. And in order for that government to function, it needs money; in order for it to get money, we need taxation. My evidence: like, all of human history?
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:19 AM on September 28, 2016 [55 favorites]


If anyone dares to speak up about the amorality of letting people struggle to get by while others thrive on the interest from their inheritance, you admonish them.

You can't have it both ways. If these are moral questions, others have the right to express their viewpoint on the morality of those who answer those questions in ways that cause harm to others.

I may be too angry to express this constructively, and maybe it belongs in MeTa. But I think this is a ridiculous double standard to impose on corb. To whit, if "admonish[ing]" someone constitutes an infrigement on "the[ir] right to express their viewpoint [etc.]" then corb has basically never been free to express her viewpoint on this site.

If words to the effect of "philosophers have a hard time with this so there's definitely room for disagreement among the rest of us" now counts as a violation of others' right to express themselves then... how to say this diplomatically... the principle of explosion applies.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:21 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


> The thing is - moral questions like the ones you guys are expressing have their roots in ideologies. It's possible for good, kind people to hold justified true beliefs that differ on moral questions, that's why they're so tricky, especially in the political realm. Should differences exist? Should there be a limit on those differences, or the expression of those differences? How big should it be, if so? These are not quantifiable questions that once the facts get exposed, reasonable, good people will all instantly agree. These are the most difficult questions of human existence, that people who spend all their time on philosophy and morality have not managed to agree on. Given that, it's completely unreasonable to expect the American electorate to do so.

However, although there exist multiple internally valid rubrics for assessing moral claims (we got your Aristotelean virtue ethics, we got your deontology, we've got — the absence of God save us — consequentialism, we got plenty), it is worthwhile to note that answers to moral questions aren't just matters of fashion or identity. They are proposals for how to live, and the universe has ways of punishing people and societies that give incoherent or self-destructive answers to the "how should we live" question.

I may be tipping my hand a little too much here — oh god I'm a consequentialist, aren't I? — but the reason I support progressive taxation, and any other measure that redistributes wealth from the deep pools that it flows toward and stagnates in back up to the people as a whole, has nothing to do with whether or not wealth-holders deserve luxury. I don't really care what tacky house Trump or notch or whoever lives in. It has nothing to do with me. I don't care whether or not the rich have whatever consumer goods they want.

What I care about is that under capitalist markets, money tends to naturally flow toward where it's already pooled. This is what people mean when they say "it takes money to make money"; the chief criterion determining whether or not you get more money is if you already have money. The more money you have, the stronger the money-magnetism effect works; you get rich enough, and you can pay all the smart people you can find to make you richer for you while you do whatever you want, and the only way you can fuck it up is if, like Trump, you throw a stupid and try to manage your own affairs.

The runaway feedback loop over time results in the situation we have today, where almost all of the wealth generated by the work of billions is pooled in the hands of a few thousands. These few thousands, for the most part, aren't particularly smart people. They didn't get all the money by being smart. They got all the money by starting with a lot of the money. In the final analysis the resulting social structure is functionally indistinguishable from feudalism. this is why so many middling-rich men started off as market libertarians and evolved into dark enlightenment monarchists; they started with the position that the market is always right, they figured out what market rules lead to, and because of their assumption of the correctness of the market decided that what the market leads to is necessarily good as well.

It takes heroic measures — aggressive progressive taxation, aggressive welfare programs, a universal basic income — to break this destructive cycle. It has nothing to do with private ownership of mansions and everything to do with private control over productive assets, and with the natural tendency under market rules for all productive assets to eventually fall into the hands of a few oligarchs.

So, yeah. That's my reason for questioning whether the moral schema of the right are actually moral in any reasonable sense; the outcome of sitting by and letting the processes of wealth concentration work naturally is universal immiseration. I doubt it is possible to have anything reasonably described as a democracy under those conditions. If one thinks that it is immoral to tax wealth, and to tax it sufficiently high enough to fund large-scale wealth distribution, to be consistent one must also abandon the idea of democracy and hook up, ideologically, with the alt-right monarchists.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:22 AM on September 28, 2016 [107 favorites]


aaaaaaand I just realized that the context for that comment was "support" as in "agree with". Not "do the work of".

Don't feel bad, because I think what's at play here is that both understandings of "support" are correct in terms of how the Trump camp is thinking.
posted by nubs at 10:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regardless of Giuliani's personal sex convenience, there is one thing that is true when it comes to NYC, 9/11, and taxes.

New York City (and the state it's in, and the region as a whole) runs as well as it does because by and large, people there pay their taxes. They may bitch, they may hire accountants to find them loopholes. But they uphold their end of the social contract.

The reason NYC was back to business as usual within a few days of the attacks, and the first responders were able to do the work they did, and the city was able to marshall the resources that they did, is because of taxes.
posted by Sara C. at 10:25 AM on September 28, 2016 [31 favorites]


Like a lot of bullies Trump punked out in the moment and brags about how tough he was later:

1) Referred to her as Secretary Clinton or Hillary to her face, then calls her Crooked Hillary in post-debate interviews
2) I was going to say something really mean, but I'm not going to
3) Agreed with Clinton on the cyber, the nuclear being the single greatest threat, better relationships between African American communities and the police, and keeping people on the no-fly list from getting guns. Not alpha dog behavior.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:25 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


New video out where Trump called a press conference in 1997 to talk about Alicia Machado being overweight.
posted by chris24 at 10:26 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


From the "she's got to be guilty of something" department: GOP congressman asks FBI find out if Hillary Clinton broke her college’s ‘honor code’.

Well that's odd. Since when does the FBI investigate college honor code cases? Oh:
Rep. Steve Chabot (R-OH) suggested to FBI Director James Comey that Hillary Clinton had broken her college’s honor code by using a private email server.

Although Clinton graduated from Wellesley College 40 years before she became secretary of state, Chabot brought up the school’s honor code at a House oversight hearing on Wednesday.
This is what Congress has been reduced to.
posted by zachlipton at 10:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [106 favorites]


Rep. Steve Chabot (R-OH) suggested to FBI Director James Comey that Hillary Clinton had broken her college’s honor code by using a private email server.

Shameful Just shameful.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:36 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


New video out where Trump called a press conference in 1997 to talk about Alicia Machado being overweight.

Jesus fuck, I want to vomit in my trash can at work after watching that. It's like he's describing an art project that didn't quite come out the way he wanted it to, except, you know, it's a fucking human being.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:37 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


New video out where Trump called a press conference in 1997 to talk about Alicia Machado being overweight.

Oh gawd. I shouldn't read them but the tweet comments really sum up the divide going on. So many, mostly men who see absolutely no issue with it. "He was nice!" "Look he was being supportive!" "This only proves that liberal and Hillary were wrong. It shows the opposite what she said."

And I don't think that every single one is just trying to spin and deflect. They really and truly don't see the problem or why it is even an issue. Not that I didn't know that this would be a reaction, it's just infuriating to see so starkly and in the context of someone they think would be an amazing leader.

Ugh.
posted by Jalliah at 10:38 AM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


(Also, it looks like Rep. Chabot has some hella cut-rate Trump hair. Meaningless, but a weird correlation.)
posted by Going To Maine at 10:38 AM on September 28, 2016


Michelle is not having any of it:

.@FLOTUS: Trump's birther claims can't be "swept under the rug by an insincere sentence" at a press conference. (video)

You want to see the clip.
posted by chris24 at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2016 [34 favorites]


My favorite thing is going to these guys' wiki pages because they always have a controversy section. Steve Chabot's: On August 22, 2011, Representative Chabot asked Cincinnati police to confiscate cameras being used by private citizens to record a town-hall meeting, even as media television cameras recorded the incident. How does that work with your honor code, Steve?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:41 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


There Is No Good Way to Explain Donald Trump’s Climate Change Tweet:
How can someone deny having said something with such conviction when there is readily available evidence that he did? This is the question The Huffington Post posed to several of Trump’s surrogates after the debate ended Monday night.
...
Sen. David Purdue (R-Ga.)

HP: But as a surrogate for the campaign, is the campaign’s position that climate change is a hoax?

PURDUE: Well, talk to the campaign

HP: You’re with the campaign.
Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.): "I do not believe in climate change. I think the Earth is in a cooling trend. It is not in a warming trend." (Also couldn't read the tweet because she didn't have her glasses on.)

Trump aide Sarah Huckabee: "I’m sorry. I stepped out a couple times. I really don’t know what you’re talking about on that."

Republican National Committee senior strategist Sean Spicer: "I didn’t follow that. I didn’t hear what actually happened."

Campaign manager Kellyanne Conway:
HP: He said that he never once said that climate change was a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. There is actually a tweet about him saying exactly that. How do you square those two?

CONWAY: Right, so we are going to be quoting tweets? She voted for the Iraq War, but we’re asking him if he supported [it]. She proudly went down to the well of the Senate and voted for the Iraq War, yay!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:43 AM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


Echelon post-debate poll
2-way:
Clinton 47
Trump 42

5-way:
Clinton 44
Trump 39
Johnson 7
Stein 3
McMullin 2
posted by strange chain at 10:43 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's biographer and ghost writer has said Trump has the attention span of a goldfish, and physically cannot focus for more than a couple minutes at a time

Or as Chait's zinger has it: "Trump displayed the factual command of a small child, the emotional stability of a hormonal teen, and the stamina of an old man, staggering and losing the thread as the 90 minutes wore on."
posted by octobersurprise at 10:44 AM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


> Rep. Steve Chabot (R-OH) suggested to FBI Director James Comey that Hillary Clinton had broken her college’s honor code by using a private email server.

Needed [Real] tag, because come on, that's ridiculous satire, except that it isn't. It's a duly elected member of Congress talking to the FBI Director, live on video.
W.
T.
F.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:45 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Did...did Trump think his microphone was "low" because Clinton chose to ignore most of his interruptions?
posted by erisfree at 10:46 AM on September 28, 2016 [30 favorites]


Bob Gale (writer for the Back to the Future trilogy) confirms Biff Tannen is based on Donald Trump. October 2015
posted by porpoise at 10:46 AM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


McMullin 2

Holy shit, McMullin is polling nationally? What? I mean, 2 points is tiny, but it's not nothing.
posted by corb at 10:46 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


I sold Trump $100,000 worth of pianos. Then he stiffed me.
At Monday night’s debate, Donald Trump was called out for stiffing the people who work for him. Trump has been accused of failing to pay hundreds of contractors. And so far, he hasn’t seemed very sorry. When asked about failing to pay someone by Hillary Clinton this week, Trump replied, “Maybe he didn’t do a good job and I was unsatisfied with his work.”

I take that attack personally. I’m one of the many small business owners who’ve been used by Trump, exploited and forced to suffer a loss because of his corporation’s shady practices.
...
I was thrilled to get a $100,000 contract from Trump. It was one of the biggest sales I’d ever made. I was supposed to deliver and tune the pianos; the Trump corporation would pay me within 90 days. I asked my lawyer if I should ask for payment upfront, and he laughed. “It’s Donald Trump!” he told me. “He’s got lots of money.”
posted by zachlipton at 10:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [42 favorites]


Donald Trump's Fortune Falls $800 Million To $3.7 Billion

I don't think he's worth close to this, but wonder how Trump will respond to this. Typically his Forbes ranking and wealth number was a huge deal that he would lobby for and argue about.
posted by chris24 at 10:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Responding to a comment WAY upthread:

Again, Trump's not about economic uncertainty but racism and sexism.

I don't think you can separate the two quite as neatly as that. Economic security is making a lot of people nervous and panicky, and that panic is driving them to find someone to blame - and women and people of color are being put forward as the scapegoats. If things were more stable, people may not be so quick to fall for that bait.

--

I have a bit of a fantasy for the town-hall debate:

One of the (myriad) things that got on my nerves about Trump was that frequently, when either Clinton or Holt was speaking, he would just croak "wrong..." or "no...." into his mike over them, interrupting them. Only once did Holt call him on it, asking him to wait his turn.

I would looooove it if at the next debate, there were a much more rules-and-reg moderator there, and the second he pulls that shit, the moderator pauses Hilary and says, "Sir, you must wait your turn. You cannot interrupt like that. We will give you two more warnings to cease this conduct."

And then of course he won't be able to, and will receive a second warning, and a third. And then he'll do it again. At which point the moderator will say "My apologies Madam Secretary, but because Mr. Trump is not able to demonstrate proper conduct, we must terminate the remainder of this debate. Mr. Trump, will you please leave immediately." And then he is whisked out of the room by security, while Hillary is given a few minutes to shake hands and then leave herself.

He wouldn't be able to blame the mike, because this would be all about things he says.
He wouldn't be able to blame policy, because it was about his conduct.
He wouldn't be able to blame bias, because he was informed three times about what he had to do in order to comply.
He wouldn't be able to blame Hillary, because this would be entirely about what he said.
He wouldn't be able to say Hillary benefitted from things ending early, because she wouldn't be allowed to make a speech either.

It would be a crash-and-burn that would be entirely on him and his conduct, and it would be unbelievably glorious
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:51 AM on September 28, 2016 [25 favorites]


Did...did Trump think his microphone was "low" because Clinton chose to ignore most of his interruptions?

I've been trying to figure out what 'the microphone was defective' excuse is actually supposed to excuse. What the reasoning in his mind that is. This is the only plausible reasoning that I could up with.

"My the microphone was defected which was a reason I didn't do well because.....???. "

Because why exactly?
posted by Jalliah at 10:51 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Randy Rainbow debate song parody video you need today.
posted by emjaybee at 10:52 AM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm not a pollster but I do some stats for a living, and I'm not sure how a two-way poll adds up to 89 percent. Assuming there is eleven points of uncertainty or error means that there is no way to predict the election from that number. Is there an explanation for this?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:53 AM on September 28, 2016


Republican Senators Call Trump’s Debate Performance ‘Interesting’. They reached (or tried to reach) Senators Graham, Cruz, McCain, Rubio, Cornyn, Fischer, Scott, Burr, McConnell, Sessions, Thune, Isakson and Ryan.
“No, no” Graham said, barely making eye contact. “I’m not going to talk about it.”

Pressed on why he wouldn’t, Graham continued to tilt his body away as he scurried through the Senate underground, drawing laughter from Sen. Tammy Baldwin (D-Wis.), who had been walking beside him.

“No, no, no. Go away, go away,” Graham continued, shooing the reporter with his hand while letting out a small chuckle. “Bye.”

posted by zarq at 10:53 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think he's blaming his sniffles on the microphone. Like it was picking up too much noise or something.
posted by asteria at 10:54 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


He blamed the microphone he's just barely smart enough to know that his usual routine of blaming Meredith wouldn't work because she wasn't on stage.
posted by zachlipton at 10:54 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Actually, I have heard, from not Trump-friendly sources, that his microphone volume was lowered, and was not at the same volume as Clinton's - that this was a deliberate attempt to prevent him from trying to drown out or shout over Clinton. If so, that means that his complaint about "the microphone was low" can only mean that this was his plan all along, that he always planned to just shout over her when she got to the good stuff.

However, I'm not sure how you can complain the microphone was high enough to pick up sniffles, but too low to pick up your shouty voice.
posted by corb at 10:55 AM on September 28, 2016 [40 favorites]


I'm not a pollster but I do some stats for a living, and I'm not sure how a two-way poll adds up to 89 percent. Assuming there is eleven points of uncertainty or error means that there is no way to predict the election from that number. Is there an explanation for this?

That's not uncertainty or error, but rather the people who said don't know/undecided/someone else.
posted by zachlipton at 10:55 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lindsay Graham, despite being a d-bag in lots of other respects, has nothing to apologize for here. He has not endorsed Cheeto Benito and he has been consistently extremely critical of him.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:56 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Donald Trump Rallies Troops: ‘We’re Gonna Get Rid Of That Crooked Woman’ [warning: autoplaying video]

Just another shout-out to the psychos and "2nd Amendment solutions" crowd...
posted by zombieflanders at 10:57 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm no sound tech but I don't think microphones can be both too high and low at the same time. It's likely the sound person did try to set it to balance out Trump's normal speaking volume with Clinton's, but that would still be loud enough to catch his commentary.
posted by emjaybee at 10:58 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


At which point the moderator will say "My apologies Madam Secretary, but because Mr. Trump is not able to demonstrate proper conduct, we must terminate the remainder of this debate. Mr. Trump, will you please leave immediately."

The whole country would tear into the moderator for shutting down a debate that they have waited months to watch. And they'd be right.

The whole point of these debates is to give the American people a way to assess how the candidates act (and react) when questions are posed. There's more informational value for the nation in watching him be 'Rudely Interrupting and Eyerolling Trump' for 90 minutes than in his absence.
posted by zarq at 10:59 AM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


Economic security is making a lot of people nervous and panicky, and that panic is driving them to find someone to blame - and women and people of color are being put forward as the scapegoats. If things were more stable, people may not be so quick to fall for that bait.

POC have it worse than whites and they're not turning to fascism.
posted by chris24 at 11:02 AM on September 28, 2016 [49 favorites]


I almost feel sorry for Paul Ryan. Here he is trying to hawk his "better way", run a semi-positive campaign based on his solutions (a lot of them which I think are wrong but kudos to him for actually having legitimate plans written down) and Trump just keeps shitting up the airwaves while Ryan is left begging for table scraps of coverage.
posted by Talez at 11:03 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, let's face it, if Lester Holt had shut down the debate early on, we would not have seen Trump get more and more tired and incoherent as the debate continued. We wouldn't have heard him say he was smart for not paying taxes, or for declaring bankruptcy four times. We wouldn't have heard his pride in admitting that he screwed over and didn't pay small business vendors. We wouldn't have heard him sound like an idiot while talking about "The Cyber". And we wouldn't have heard his reaction to Clinton's bringing up Mrs. Machado.

Better to have The Fool open his mouth and remove all doubt, so to speak.
posted by zarq at 11:03 AM on September 28, 2016 [53 favorites]


I'm not a pollster but I do some stats for a living, and I'm not sure how a two-way poll adds up to 89 percent. Assuming there is eleven points of uncertainty or error means that there is no way to predict the election from that number. Is there an explanation for this?

They're not predicting the election. They're saying that they're 95 percent sure that between 44 and 50 percent of people are going to vote for Clinton, and similarly sure that between 39 and 45 percent of people are going to vote for Trump (plus a couple more layers of uncertainty).

The 11 percent (or 5-17 percent) of undecided voters aren't the pollsters' problem, they're the strategists'.
posted by Etrigan at 11:05 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


PZ Myers: How full of it is Sean Hannity?:
I admit, I watched this whole video. But I had an excuse! You see, it’s Sean Hannity explaining to you, the American people how Donald Trump won the big debate the other day, and his reasoning was so full of shit that I was sure it was going to start leaking out of his eyes, and maybe his skin would split open and he’d erupt into a spectacular shit fountain right there on camera. He started off by explaining…
…how out of touch the mainstream media is with you, the American people
I started thinking, wait a minute, this is on Fox News, a major media company, and Hannity has a radio show, so isn’t he a big dopey part of the mainstream media? Is he even aware that he has begun by explaining that he is out of touch?
If you listen to the elites and the punditry class on television and radio, they almost universally, they think, Hillary Clinton won the debate…
Hang on, this is getting ridiculous. Hannity has a net worth of about $80 million; he’s one of those “elites”. All he does is uninformed blather on television and radio, so he is definitely one of the “punditry class”. And he’s telling us how we shouldn’t trust guys like him? So meta. So self-referential. I’m on the edge of my seat waiting for the shitsplosion.
posted by palindromic at 11:05 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


I was in Thailand during the last coup. Something that surprised me was that the main base of support for the replacement of democratically elected leaders with military strongmen were the urban (Bangkok) middle class. I think we're seeing a similar dynamic play out with Trump; his supporters aren't people who are suffering so much as people with a modicum of privilege who are terrified of having to support themselves without that privilege, and so are looking to a Violent Dad figure to defend their privilege for them.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:07 AM on September 28, 2016 [43 favorites]


I’m on the edge of my seat waiting for the shitsplosion.

It's like Wile E. Coyote. He doesn't fall until he looks down. Therefore the lesson is "don't ever stop and don't ever look at where you are".
posted by Talez at 11:10 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


These 14 Tweets Will Show You How Badly Trump Screwed Atlantic City:
A severely underrated—and underreported—part of The Trumpian Mystique is the Donald's prowess as a scheming business tycoon. He hasn't just made a lot of money: A lot of people have accused him of scamming them on his way to his tacky gold plated palace in the sky. Most (in)famously, there's Trump University, but there are also the countless small contractors he's allegedly stiffed through the years. Some of those were in Atlantic City, where Trump sought to build a casino empire. Arielle Brousse, an A.C. native, and had some thoughts, via tweetstorm, about the Republican nominee's conduct in her home city.
I've said it before: I grew up in Atlantic City. My parents, my friends' parents, my neighbors, they all worked in Atlantic City.

Donald Trump's systematic monopolization of trade, mismanagement of funds, and destruction of community there is personal to me.
posted by palindromic at 11:13 AM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


However, I'm not sure how you can complain the microphone was high enough to pick up sniffles, but too low to pick up your shouty voice.

Microphones have a notorious liberal bias.
posted by Devonian at 11:14 AM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


A good primer on the origins of the so-called Alt Right.
"...the term Alt Right has gone on to signify a certain type of politics, namely a form of white nationalism that attempts to define itself as an intellectual movement with a hip internet culture. Instead of the blue-collar roots of many white nationalist movements of American history, the Alt Right had more in common with the neo-fascist intellectual and political traditions in Europe. As the movement grew and diversified, it became a catchall for an Internet focused white nationalism that more and more relied on internal jargon, key philosophers, and a few central tenets."
posted by monospace at 11:15 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I thought Trump said his microphone was too low "in the room" meaning that the studio audience couldn't hear him well. Because I think Trump normally plays to audience reactions and wasn't getting much, and he figured that must be why. He couldn't tell how he was doing without the audience reaction... of course the audience was actually asked to be quiet, which I assume is the real reason they were quiet, not his mic.

No one has mentioned my favorite part of the debate yet... when Trump kept repeating "Go to her website. Go to her website." At first it was because she invited people to go to her website and he was trying to say "yeah, go, you'll see how ridiculous she is." But later he actually said it unprompted, and without much context. What an own-goal.

If his "blue screen / bad temperament" thing was about that video scarrd upthread where she gets a little angry about Trump supporting so called "right to work laws" and stuffing contractors like her dad, in front of a union audience... Referencing that was also an own-goal, because I can only imagine a lot of people will share that anger, and people may look it up in rsponse to that reference. He might as well plug one of her campaign ads... (Which he sort of did as well... wonder if anyone is looking those up to see what he was talking about with his descriptions of mean ads.)

But really, "Go to her website." She must have been thinking, thanks for the plug, Donald!
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:16 AM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


I almost feel sorry for Paul Ryan. Here he is trying to hawk his "better way", run a semi-positive campaign based on his solutions (a lot of them which I think are wrong but kudos to him for actually having legitimate plans written down)

His plans may be written down, but if you read them, it all relies on the magic tax cut fairy blessing the economy after even more tax cuts, and spending cuts to social programs, naturally. Everything hinges on Kansas-style promises of the miracle of dynamic scoring and a predicted boom after the rich finally, at long long last, pay an effective tax rate of absolute zero. Ryan is and always has been a flim-flam man who's entire existence is owed to being the one chosen by the media's pathological need for both sides to be the same and tapped fulfill that imperative as the "reasonable" Republican who proves the right has it's own "policy wonks".
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:16 AM on September 28, 2016 [30 favorites]


I protested outside a Trump rally last night. All he did was whine about how he actually won the debate, accuse Boeing (incorrectly) of moving jobs to China and get back on his dumb wall idea. Nothing about the space program, which is like, the only reason anyone would live here. His supporters were pretty mean-spirited. They left the rally screaming about hating "wetbacks," how they we going to deport everyone, that Jesus hated us etc. The crowd was pretty hostile. It seemed like the rally was just an exercise in fueling a very ugly rage among (primarily) white men. Oh, and the pro-trump crowd had lots of belligerent drunks in it.

The whole thing really made me want to move.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [31 favorites]


I'm not a pollster but I do some stats for a living, and I'm not sure how a two-way poll adds up to 89 percent. Assuming there is eleven points of uncertainty or error means that there is no way to predict the election from that number. Is there an explanation for this?

*Some people refuse to answer
*Some people respond that they don't know
*Some people give a third candidate's name, or "someone else," or "neither of them" even though they were asked not to do that
*Some people respond that they will not vote
*Some people give incoherent responses (that probably get coded as DK)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Microphones have a notorious liberal DC bias.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:18 AM on September 28, 2016 [23 favorites]


As with Trump, it's all about the phantom power.
posted by Devonian at 11:19 AM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


PSA: If anyone on your facebook feed today is sharing the HILLARY SECRET DEBATE EAR PIECE GETTING FED LINES post, here's a photo (from Fox News, so the source is unimpeachable) from the actual debate that you can share. Because (quelle surprise) the photo being shared is not from the debate. Different necklace, different earrings, clear shot of her ear.
posted by phunniemee at 11:20 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Metafilter: It's all about the phantom power.
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:21 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]




My Trump-defending friend "liked" a Milo Yiannopolous meme on Facebook that said Holt was biased because he didn't ask questions about:

"Benghazi
Deleted emails
Clinton Foundation
Iraq war vote
Hillary's crimes
Hillary's health
500% increase in Syrian refugees
and much much more."

I couldn't resist commenting...

 
Yeah, also I wish they'd ask about the Trump campaign's connections to Putin through Paul Manafort and Carter Page and even Wendy Deng, and Putin's hacking of voter registration databases in Arizona and Illinois. And about the Trump Foundation and its purchases of luxury cruises and 6' portraits of Trump using "charitable donations." And about Trump University and the Trump Foundation's campaign contributions to attorney general Pam Bondi, who then dropped the case against Trump University. And about Roger Ailes' role on the campaign and whether he treats female campaign staffers the same way he treated women at Fox news. And about the Stephen Bannon (current campaign manager) and his voter fraud. And for that matter about Bannon's colleagues at Breitbart, including the sharer of this meme Milo Yiannopolous, and their racist and sexist statements... such as Milo's belief that sexually groping a woman without her consent shouldn't be illegal. (I'm sure Roger Ailes agrees.) Yeah, a lot of questions they didn't have time to get to in this debate...
I almost do hope some of this comes out at the next debate, because her "scandals" are old news now, but I feel like there are a lot of people who haven't heard about his yet.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [33 favorites]


I kinda got the impression more that he was trying to bluff people into thinking that the "sniffles" were some kind of noise added by a bad mic. He's fulla shit, of course - a bad line or mic can add noise, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like sniffling.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:24 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Eric Trump: It Took “Courage” For My Dad To Not Mention Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

I read that and did an actual, instinctual face palm.

We are all courageous for not making our enemies wallow in their lowest moments, aren't we?
posted by Tevin at 11:26 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's fulla shit, of course - a bad line or mic can add noise, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like sniffling.

And it wouldn't exclusively occur when he was inhaling between sentences and phrases...
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:26 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think he's blaming his sniffles on the microphone. Like it was picking up too much noise or something.

Or it was full of cocaine.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


a bad line or mic can add noise, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like sniffling.
posted by soundguy99


Checks out.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:27 AM on September 28, 2016 [48 favorites]


Eric Trump: It Took “Courage” For My Dad To Not Mention Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

So, now that Giuliani and Trumpling have publicly commented about it, we can reliably assume that Trump himself will bring it up during the next debate.

That'll end well.
posted by zarq at 11:28 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm a little bit of a sound tech and I think it's likely they did lower Trump's mic at certain points. They most definitely had an actual person mixing the sound and keeping an eye on the levels*. Sound mixers are usually expected to favor one speaker at a time - i mean, that's what I'm being taught to do for quality sound - and they're expected to use their judgment to decide who exactly to favor at any given moment. That still applies to a presidential debate. It just means the sound guy would (presumably) be careful to have a light and even hand.

It's also 100% likely that Trump couldn't hear himself as loudly as he expected, if he's gotten used to his rallies. On a stage like this, you can't hear yourself out of the speakers; they have to set up a special "monitor" speaker for the stage. It's possible the monitor was set too quiet or was even missing.

And, on preview, OnceUponATime's explanation about the audience's lack of reaction is also very likely.

and also it's all bullshit.

*(reason: If someone starts shouting, for example, you have to cut their levels before people's ears start bleeding. Or if someone spontaneously gets a sore throat then it's only fair to pick their mic up a bit to compensate. However, the auto-level function will also try to compensate when the person isn't speaking at all, and it'll bump the amplification up super high and pick up a lot of white noise. You can hear standard consumer digital cameras doing this. Ergo every TV production has an actual human doing sound.)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:31 AM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]




Clinton campaign pre-debate: We’re going to bait Trump and make him lose his cool.

Trump campaign pre-debate: Whatever.

Hillary Clinton: Bait.

Trump: Loses cool.
I know ISIS isn't as stupid as Trump, but clearly plans don't become immediately worthless when they're not secret.
posted by ckape at 11:33 AM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


It is the job of everyone else involved with the show to carefully insulate the hired actor D. J. Trump so that his only job is to play the Donald character.

Totally agree, but I didn't see it as standard bubble guard. What dude seemed to be saying was that if you weren't personally a nauseating racist you got pushed off. I think there's a merit difference between the expectations of putting a on a public face that The Bachelor Is Making A Decision, or even that Trump Is Evaluating Business Acumen, and getting canned because you believe Barack Obama is a US Citizen.

The only thing I know as comparison is a friend who produces a daytime talk show for a raging misogynist. She is an openly raging feminist and gets no shit.

The caveats are 1) this dipshit was proud of the demand, and of himself for adherence and 2) he worked far from talent and may have been using an exaggeration of actual policy or practice to paint himself as more inside than he really was.

It's your field, so I expect you know way more than my anecdotes!
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 11:33 AM on September 28, 2016


The initial polling post-debate is encouraging, save for the LA Times Tracking Poll which is still the scourge of all things good and holy, but I want to see a couple more before climbing down off the ledge.
posted by Justinian at 11:39 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Meanwhile, on Twitter, Wesley Snipes steps in on the tax issue.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:45 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


LA Times tracking poll is completely pointless since it uses a methodology that is incredibly sketchy. Seriously it seems like it should be lumped into studying pig entrails for omens.
posted by vuron at 11:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would love to be the detective interrogating Trump in a murder mystery.

Me: Do you recognize the name "Alicia Machado."

Trump: (sniffle) No. Never heard of her. (sniffle) Where'd you get that from? Where'd you get that from? (sniffle) I didn't sniffle.

Me: She was found. . .

Trump: I didn't kill her. (sniffle) It was just business. Not paying taxes makes me smart. I pay a huge amount of taxes.

Me: She was found. . .

Trump: I don't even know who she is. She gained a massive amount of weight. Sure, I did it, but I'm not admitting to anything.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


This passage from Adam Gopnik's New Yorker piece "The Problem With Trump Isn't His Debating Skills" has been making the rounds on Twitter, so just leaving this here:
Yet Trump continued last night his self-congratulations for compelling the President to do this, along with the grotesquely racist notion that it was “good for him” (i.e., for the President). It slowly dawned on the listener that this was all of a piece with the rest of Trump’s racial attitudes: he believes that, as a rich white man, he had a right to stop and frisk the President of the United States and demand that the uppity black man show him his papers. Stop-and-frisk isn’t just a form of policing for Trump; it’s a whole way of life. The idea that he had a right to force a black man to go through what Obama rightly saw as the demeaning business of producing his birth certificate showed his fundamental contempt for any normal idea of racial equality. It was of a line with his equally bizarre notion that owning a country club that doesn’t actively discriminate against black people is not a minimal requirement of law but a positive achievement of the owner. This isn’t the case of someone misarticulating an otherwise plausible position; it was just a case of someone repeating, once again, not only a specific racist lie but also the toxic underlying set of assumptions that produced it.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:50 AM on September 28, 2016 [68 favorites]


The LA Times tracking poll has about a six point systematic Republican bias. If you adjust for that (like 538 does, for instance) it follows the other polls reasonably well. Systematic biases are easy to correct for, if they can be identified.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:53 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Funny how the trump kids are spinning it like it's about keeping nice rather than the terror that it will immediately go badly for him.

They're in a bubble. The whole campaign seems to be in one. As was the Romney campaign four years ago. And the McCain campaign before that.

The Trump campaign seems convinced that their opponent is a corrupt loathsome liar whom everyone hates. Which is sort of understandable if one thinks that the only news media who are unbiased are those who say things one agrees with. After all, right wing radio and television has been shouting similar crap about Clinton for decades. Kellyanne Conway has been spreading a similar message whenever she's asked about Trump. As did Roger Stone before her. And Paul Manafort and Corey Lewandowski. Taxes? What about Iraq/Benghazi/Emails etc., etc. Lewandowski does it all the time on CNN. They all obfuscate and change the subject, hoping that the American people have as short an attention span as the Republican Presidential candidate.

Existing in a bubble means ignoring evidence to the contrary. And making excuses instead of accepting responsibility for one's failures. Bubble life is the result of being overinvested in never admitting one is wrong or needs to change course. For 15 years, that's been the modern Republican party: if they're gonna be running into walls, they're gonna do it at top speed. Because they are incapable of recognizing when to stop and re-assess. Candidate Trump is the ultimate culmination of that intransigent attitude. Never back down. Never surrender. Never admit you made a mistake. Never apologize. Confidence! Vigilence and all that bullshit.

If he consistently took the high road, that strategy might help him. McCain tried. Romney tried. But that's not Trump.
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


Re: my comment above, I was of course talking about statistical biases. If only systematic social biases could be adjusted for in the same way…
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:55 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]






Trump on debate: I was 'holding back'

"If I'd really wanted to win, I would have. Besides, the moderator was against me. Besides, the microphone wasn't working."


Oooo! Oooo! Pick me! I'm really good at this game!

About this time four years ago everyone was saying Obama lost. That it was pretty much over for the democrats. By next Monday four years ago the term Gish Gallop was trending and "Syria is Iran's route to the see was rapidly becoming a punchline. That's what holding back looks like.

When an angry terrier barks incessantly restraint is not giving it a swift kick.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:59 AM on September 28, 2016


Now I want to know what the Senate did in 1983.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


We are all courageous for not making our enemies wallow in their lowest moments, aren’t we?

And yet, I would say that her husband’s infidelities aren’t her lowest moment - and surely staying with her husband hasn’t been her lowest moment either, let alone staying with him through his subsequent affairs. I would say that raising the subject of those infidelities would be a jumping off point for the complicated way that modern love plays out, and one of the double standards that our society holds women to, demanding that that leave their husband as some sort of show of strength - as opposed to, say, the wives of the Larry Craigs of the world who are permitted to remain in their relationships.

I would say that if Trump had mentioned President Clinton’s infidelities, Lester Holt should have taken his chair out front of the moderator’s desk, sat down, and said that it was time to have a real conversation. Perhaps he should have invited Oprah out from the wings, or Mr. Rogers -if only he were alive. Donald and Hillary have both had long associations with men who are unfaithful to women. What lurks in their hearts? What lurks in the hearts of women who discover that their help-meet has been lying to them? Do either of you read “Dear Prudence”? “Savage Love”? What does it say about us that these kinds of advice columns are so popular? Why do we like getting into other peoples’ romantic business? What are we longing for? What were we looking for in our relationships when we began them, and have they transcended that, or have they regressed? Could we all read a book before the next debate and have a meaningful discussion of it? What about Stoner? It’s been getting popular again these days, and seems relevant to these themes. (To say nothing of our sniffles subtext?)

Oh, I’m sorry, we’re deciding who the President should be right now. Do either of you think this conversation is relevant to that? Why? Does private morality reflect on the public sphere? Or not? I’ve always heard that if you can’t trust people in small things, you shouldn’t trust them in large ones, but does that even make sense? Perhaps I’m getting it backwards -if you can’t trust them in big things, then you shouldn’t trust them in small ones. Why do Republicans and Democrats get painted as having such profoundly different attitudes towards sex? And why is it that the stereotype seems to be that Democrats get caught with their pants down when clearly Republicans do too?

But I guess we don’t have time for this discussion, and I’m not sure that the audience is ready for it. I think we all want some more red meat, plus some easy cutting remarks. This is supposed to be a policy discussion, you know, not a heart-to-heart. So I guess we’ll all go back behind our podiums and my little moderator desk and will get back to the debate. Because the country isn’t ready to have this conversation now, and I’m not sure that either one of you wants to have this conversation because it has little to do with politics directly (although it would be naive of me to deny that aspect of it) and a lot to do with the content of the soul. So let’s get back to the planned melee.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Existing in a bubble means ignoring evidence to the contrary. And making excuses instead of accepting responsibility for one's failures. Bubble life is the result of being overinvested in never admitting one is wrong or needs to change course.

Mm hmm. This is why there's no chance he's going to do better next time. Look how he handled his poor performance this time - he knew off the bat he didn't do so well, and he immediately started blaming everyone else. Then he started seeking out confirmation (via shitty online polls) that he didn't do so badly after all.

He's not going to improve because he has no plan to improve. He doesn't even have any ideas for how to improve. His only idea is "I'm going to be more of an asshole next time." Like that will help even if it did catch Hillary off guard (which it won't).
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 12:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Now I want to know what the Senate did in 1983.

Called Strom Thurmond "mom" in front of the whole class
posted by theodolite at 12:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [44 favorites]


Now I want to know what the Senate did in 1983.

Got bombed?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:05 PM on September 28, 2016


The spokesman was "responding to a reporter who told him Wednesday’s vote was the most overwhelming since a 95-0 veto override vote in 1983."

Apparently the reporter was referring to this override of Reagan's veto.

So I think it was more about the scale of the veto than the details.
posted by thefoxgod at 12:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't think you can separate the two quite as neatly as that. Economic security is making a lot of people nervous and panicky, and that panic is driving them to find someone to blame - and women and people of color are being put forward as the scapegoats. If things were more stable, people may not be so quick to fall for that bait.


I noticed that "people" is a group not inclusive of women or PoC.
posted by zutalors! at 12:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [46 favorites]


Either the trend of "minorities immigrate and support Democrats, thereby making white Republicans less relevant" is real or it isn't. If it is real, white Republicans are not being racist by opposing it, they're just looking out for their interests.

"Looking out for their [political] interests" is not incompatible with overt racism. For example, US Rep Steve King (R-Iowa) recently stated on Twitter that "Cultural suicide by demographic transformation must end."

The context for this was a tweet wishing good luck to a far-right German candidate who has previously stated that police should fire on refugees attempting to cross into the country.

King later retweeted someone accusing him of white nationalism, without rebutting the charge. (Link to his twitter account / Link to "cultural suicide" tweet and the "white nationalist" accusation that King retweeted)

This morning I called the offices of Mr. King to request clarification on whether or not he considers himself a white nationalist. The person answering the phone said, "I haven't had that conversation with him, so I can't speak to that."

I realize that the person answering the phones is probably an intern working on Capitol Hill for the first time, but come on, really? The answer here should be an unambiguous no.

Am I crazy for calling King's office to ask this question? I feel like only a kook would ask that question, but here we are in 2016, where an actual member of Congress is equating immigration with "cultural suicide," proudly sharing photos of himself standing with far-right politicians, drawing attention to accusations of white nationalism without refuting them.

I grew up in Iowa, and Steve King absolutely does not represent Iowa as I knew it. That man is breaking my fucking heart right now.
posted by compartment at 12:11 PM on September 28, 2016 [34 favorites]


I noticed that "people" is a group not inclusive of women or PoC.

That was accidental, but upon reflection I think it still fits - if you're panicky enough, you're that much more prone to attacking a similarly on-the-outs group member, or even one of your own.

My point being that I think the economic insecurity is escalating racism and sexism, and that the two can't be separated quite as neatly as the commenter I was responding to was implying.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:13 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


This just occurred to me out of nowhere. Donald Trump is Frank Booth.

I think Trump is more like Frank Reynolds.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 12:14 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Conan: Every True Thing Donald Trump Said at the Debate

Actually "I could give you a list of banks" wasn't true either.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Eric Trump: It Took “Courage” For My Dad To Not Mention Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

Oh, what other shitty serial adulterers besides Guiliani and Donald can tell us how wonderful it is Donny didn't taunt a woman for being cheated on? Newt Gingrich? Yes, Rudy, Donny & Newt (that sounds like a bad 60s bubblegum group) - you've finally found the ONE TOPIC all three of you can speak about with authority - serial adultery.

Meanwhile, Dear F***king POS Eric Trumplet, perhaps you need a review of the definition of courage:
1. the ability to do something that frightens one
2. strength in the face of pain or grief

Examples: 1. My father half-raising himself after his mother died, then joining the service in WWII and getting his ass shot at by Nazis. All so we could live in a country where your worthless narcissistic demagogue of a sperm donor could spit on my father's grave by daring to run for President as a New Fascist.

2. My mother fighting the effects of radiation and chemotherapy for ovarian cancer. All so she could live to see her daughter as an adult struggle to cover her own health costs, while Rethuglicans do everything they can to ensure such struggles remain the norm for tens of millions of Americans.

You POS, "courage" is not a bunch of whoring rich white men mocking a woman who, for any faults she has, is more than all of you put together have been or ever will be.

[Excuse me, we evidently just reached maximum NLHD (NorthernLiteHatesDouchebags) levels.]
posted by NorthernLite at 12:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [71 favorites]



The LA Times tracking poll has about a six point systematic Republican bias. If you adjust for that (like 538 does, for instance) it follows the other polls reasonably well. Systematic biases are easy to correct for, if they can be identified.


Right, but it actually moved towards Trump with the first day of post-debate polling it included. That's my issue not the 5 points bias.
posted by Justinian at 12:16 PM on September 28, 2016


I mean, anyone could stand there and rattle off all the bank names they've heard of. That's factually true!
posted by numaner at 12:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Somebody just reminded me of this song (from 17 years ago!):

It's been five years since we had a raise in pay
And they disallowed my business lunches today
Somebody must have changed the rules of the game
So we've found a convenient scapegoat we can blame

It's those teenage immigrant welfare mothers on drugs
(They're too lazy to work)
Teenage immigrant welfare mothers on drugs
(They're stealing our jobs)

Somebody ran this country deep into debt
I called up Congress, but nobody's called back yet
Sometimes I get so mad I can't think straight
We're looking for relief and it feels so great to hate...

posted by showbiz_liz at 12:17 PM on September 28, 2016


It's shocking to me how many questions are being asked where the answer is clearly "No, of course not", but that answer is not being provided.

Do you think the US should perform a nuclear first strike? No, of course not.
Will you be the first candidate in a generation to release no tax returns? No, of course not.
Should the US negotiate down its debt, effectively defaulting? No, of course not.
Do you accept the endorsement of David Duke and the KKK? No, of course not.
Should the US commit war crimes, such as murdering known innocents? No, of course not.
Is a religious or ideological purity test an appropriate part of immigration policy? No, of course not.
Should your supporters commit acts of violence on your behalf? No, of course not.
Is climate change a hoax invented by China? No, of course not.

These aren't difficult! They're super easy!
posted by 0xFCAF at 12:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [29 favorites]


I have a son. He’s 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it’s unbelievable.
It just occurred to me that Barron, who doesn't have enough problems in life being named Barron Trump, had to go to school the next morning after his dad said this to 80 million people.
posted by zachlipton at 12:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [58 favorites]


Trump on debate: I was 'holding back'

"If I'd really wanted to win, I would have. Besides, the moderator was against me. Besides, the microphone wasn't working."


It's always good re-reading this: The Presidential Candidates Ranked By Their Usefulness In A Bar Fight.
posted by mazola at 12:21 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


That line sounded like my grandpop bragging to the neighbors after I set the clock on the VCR for him. Fortunately, that is where their similarities end.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:22 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I hope Barron turns out to be a hardcore progressive political wunderkind just to spite his father and to help workers regardless of sex, religion, or race.
posted by Tevin at 12:22 PM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]


Am I crazy for calling King's office to ask this question?

He's always been an abject racist, and has leaned into overt white nationalism. Also, dixieflag and yellow-snakeflag and Vatican City flag(?!) on desk.
posted by holgate at 12:24 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I sold Trump $100,000 worth of pianos. Then he stiffed me.

This was linked up thread - for some reason this small essay by one small businessman hit me harder than anything since the Khan family's speech. I think because of:
Losing $30,000 was a big hit to me and my family. The profit from Trump was meant to be a big part of my salary for the year. So I made much less. There was no money to help grow my business. I had fewer pianos in the showroom and a smaller advertising budget. Because of Trump, my store stagnated for a couple of years. It made me feel really bad, like I’d been taken advantage of. I was embarrassed.
The thought of a grandfather who sells pianos out of a small Jersey store feeling humiliated, stupid, and sad, while Trump goes around Trumping...has Trump ever felt guilt in his life? Has he ever stopped and wondered "Oh, I hope I didn't hurt that person's feelings!" or "Oh, how can I make this person I love's day better?" or any of the small nice things the rest of us do for each other in our good moments to make life bearable? Has he ever decided not to do something that would benefit him because it would mean hurting someone else? Has he ever stopped, when making a decision, and thought "do unto others..."? Does he wonder about the meaning of life? It seems impossible to me that a real live human person can live by as shallow and simple a code as "Accumulate as much wealth as you can." How is it possible?
posted by sallybrown at 12:26 PM on September 28, 2016 [85 favorites]


Yeah, but I presume your grandpop didn't say that while discussing state actors engaging in well-coordinated campaigns to hack into government VCRs in other countries and steal their precious Matlock tapes.
posted by zachlipton at 12:27 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Livestream of a current rally with Bernie and Hillary in New Hampshire. Bernie just finished speaking and Hillary just started.
posted by yasaman at 12:27 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


has Trump ever felt guilt in his life?

No.

”Oh, I hope I didn't hurt that person’s feelings!”

Maybe.

“Oh, how can I make this person I love's day better?”

Yes, albeit with the assumption that something that makes him happy would make them happy.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:29 PM on September 28, 2016


For me, it was Trump's debate line about stiffing vendors: "Maybe he didn’t do a good job and I was unsatisfied with his work." I have no doubt there are a lot of vendors who worked their asses off for Trump and got stiffed, and having him say on national TV that they did a bad job and deserved what he did to them is just another insult.
posted by zachlipton at 12:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [30 favorites]


PopeGuilty, I would like to favorite your comment 100 times. Thank you.
posted by theora55 at 12:33 PM on September 28, 2016


For me, it was Trump's debate line about stiffing vendors: "Maybe he didn’t do a good job and I was unsatisfied with his work." I have no doubt there are a lot of vendors who worked their asses off for Trump and got stiffed, and having him say on national TV that they did a bad job and deserved what he did to them is just another insult.

As the same piano man says:
Today, when I hear Trump brag about paying small business owners less than he agreed, I get angry. He’s always suggesting that the people who worked for him didn’t do the right job, didn’t complete their work on time, that something was wrong. But I delivered quality pianos, tuned and ready to go. I did everything right. And then Trump cheated me. It’s a callous way to do business.
More than a callous way to do business - a callous way to live.
posted by sallybrown at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


Ooh, that New Yorker article linked by mandolin conspiracy is nice. I like the push-back to what seems to have become the perceived truth: that Trump was winning the debate for the first twenty minutes, and failed because his actual debating skills weren't up to snuff.
Again, this wasn’t a problem of how he chose to present his beliefs; the problem is with the beliefs. This wasn’t a question of preparation. It was that the things he actually believes are themselves repellent even when coherently presented. This was not a bad performance. This is a bad man.
And even if he does somehow manage to be better prepared in the future, he'll still be a bad man. As entertaining as it is to see the media talking about how badly he did because he blew off preparation, going forward I'd like to see more of this.
posted by Salieri at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


Rudy, Donny & Newt (that sounds like a bad 60s bubblegum group)

On behalf of Dino, Desi & Billy I resent that comparison.

(I feel compelled to note that I misspelled "canebrake" upthread. It's "canebrake," not "cranebrake."1

1Tho maybe a cranberry marsh could be a "cranbrake.")
posted by octobersurprise at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Today's Fresh Air featured an extended interview with WaPo reporter David Fahrenthold, in which he made pretty clear that he believes Trump had been engaging in a pattern of self-dealing with his foundation.

As he sums up, Farenthold also said Trump "doesn't seem to have understood that a charity isn't set up to benefit you." Ouch!
posted by Gelatin at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


White House spokesman: 9/11 bill veto override is "the single most embarrassing thing the Senate has done since 1983."

Speaking as probably one of the more progressive people on this site, there are a lot more embarrassing things the Senate has done since 19-effing-83, ffs. What I'd like to know is why Obama is working so very, very hard to protect Saudia Arabian interests, when we're doing everything we can to decimate their oil markets — the one thing that makes them money — at the same time. His actions are not adding up and the optics don't look good.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:35 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe someday, when all this is over and the Trump brand lies in ruins, Barron Trump will become an honest, hardworking IT guy of modest means

One day his asshole brothers who haven't spoken to him in years call him up to ask to borrow money, they got screwed in some sketchy business venture and they're dead broke

They already tried Tiffany and she let the call go straight to voicemail

And Barron is like man I really wish I could help you out but sorry

That is my dream
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:36 PM on September 28, 2016 [47 favorites]


showbiz_liz has some serious debate prep skills.
posted by theora55 at 12:37 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


the single most embarrassing thing the Senate has done since 1983

They refused to have a hearing for a Supreme Court nominee this year.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:37 PM on September 28, 2016 [33 favorites]


White House spokesman: 9/11 bill veto override is "the single most embarrassing thing the Senate has done since 1983."

What a disgusting, offensive, repellent thing to say. How about starting these moronic fucking wars? But of course in DC slightly embarrassing one politician is a much graver offense than the mutilation, torture, and murder of hundreds of thousands of people.
posted by enn at 12:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump "doesn't seem to have understood that a charity isn't set up to benefit you."

Trump has never, ever in his entire life done anything for anyone without the surname Trump. He doesn't understand that the world isn't set up to benefit him.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:43 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


I like the push-back to what seems to have become the perceived truth: that Trump was winning the debate for the first twenty minutes, and failed because his actual debating skills weren't up to snuff.

20 minutes in I paused and called someone who wasn't watching and said "I can't believe how badly he's doing, she's kicking his ass". Little did I know.
posted by bongo_x at 12:44 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The thought of a grandfather who sells pianos out of a small Jersey store feeling humiliated, stupid, and sad

I remember when my dad was conned by someone. Not much money, but he was ashamed of himself. Mortified. That's partly why it's taken so long for these stories to come out. Not just because many of those stiffed will have (at best) signed NDAs as part of their meagre settlement, but because it's re-opening scars, especially for proud men who try to run honest businesses. I think we'll hear more and more of those stories now, with safety in numbers.

(Brian Walsh, a former senior GOP comms director, said on the night of the debate that his dad's company was stiffed on a big telecom job.)
posted by holgate at 12:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [26 favorites]




I kinda got the impression more that he was trying to bluff people into thinking that the "sniffles" were some kind of noise added by a bad mic. He's fulla shit, of course - a bad line or mic can add noise, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like sniffling.

All Trump had to do was say "I had a little cold, but I'm OK". Instead he said immediately "Something was wrong with the mic" and then when asked said "I wasn't sniffling". It's fun to mock him and make accusations, but seriously, many of us recognize that behavior and line of thinking.
posted by bongo_x at 12:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Next time Trump says something at an interview about all the jobs he's created, I want the interviewer to reply with, "No, those are only jobs if you pay them. If they work for you and you refuse to pay them, that's theft."

And regarding the "maybe his work wasn't up to standards" - if that's the case, you sue him for breach of contract. It's not like Donald is unfamiliar with the process of suing someone. Poor work on the part of one contractor doesn't give you the right not to pay any of them - bankruptcy is not caused by bad workmanship on the part of one contractor. (It could be caused by poor work across all contractors... in which case, the person who hired them shows amazingly poor judgment.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Donald Trump's business, charity, and campaign are all basically the same grift. He makes a big show of putting his own money in up front, but at this point he's only taking money out and it's other people who are all paying for it.
posted by ckape at 12:49 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hrmm, these reuters/ipsos results are extremely good.

Clinton 44-38 in Head to Head, 42-38 in 4-way polling
posted by vuron at 12:49 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


I remember when my dad was conned by someone. Not much money, but he was ashamed of himself. Mortified.

My dad (dadchat!) told me once that con men were a much lower form of criminal than muggers, because the latter just take your stuff by force, but the former take your stuff by taking advantage of your faith in humanity. A mugger might hurt your body, but con men hurt your soul.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:49 PM on September 28, 2016 [64 favorites]


And those Reuters numbers are from before the debate too.
posted by Justinian at 12:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


@JohnJHarwood
source close to Trump tells @KatyTurNBC candidate's children unhappy w/Bannon/Conway/Bossie leadership, think campaign is hurting business


YESSSS here we go again. Who will come catapulting out of the gates of hell this time???
posted by acidic at 12:52 PM on September 28, 2016 [53 favorites]


What I'd like to know is why Obama is working so very, very hard to protect Saudia Arabian interests

This is really not hard to understand. Obama is trying to prevent other nations from enacting fuck-you-too legislation that would allow their citizens to effectively and meaningfully sue the US in their courts. The downside here is not "Saudi Arabia has to pay damages to Americans," it's (say) Belgians suing the US in Belgian courts because a terrorist attack in Brussels was in stated response to a US drone strike, and having connected-to-US assets in Belgium seized to pay the resulting damages. Or having Pakistanis sue the US in Pakistani courts because their house got blowed up by a US bomb, or their family member got killed when the US blew up a house he was walking by. Or host countries refusing to renew those aspects of their SOFAs where they exist so that people stationed in or passing through, say, Denmark have to worry about being sued in Danish courts for something they did in or over Pakistan/Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [77 favorites]


Of course the campaign is hurting business.

Most Americans are reluctant to give their money to obvious asshats.
posted by vuron at 12:54 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Who will come catapulting out of the gates of hell this time???

Please oh please put Trumpie the Leastest and Eric the Vampire in charge for the last 3 weeks.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]




Am I crazy for calling King's office to ask this question? I feel like only a kook would ask that question

I, for one, welcome any and all civic-minded kooks who hold racists' feet to the fire for being racist and I appreciate your service.

@JohnJHarwood
source close to Trump tells @KatyTurNBC candidate's children unhappy w/Bannon/Conway/Bossie leadership, think campaign is hurting business


The market works!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


White House spokesman: 9/11 bill veto override is "the single most embarrassing thing the Senate has done since 1983."

What the the Senate ought to feel embarrassed about are the ones who voted against the 9/11 First Responders health bill, to say nothing of Congress failing to renew the 9/11 Health and Compensation Act of 2010. This 9/11 Saudi lawsuit bill is just a shameful piece of meaningless political buck-passing.

But because this is an election year, both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton have said they'd enact the bill if they were president.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:55 PM on September 28, 2016


Obama is trying to prevent other nations from enacting fuck-you-too legislation that would allow their citizens to effectively and meaningfully sue the US in their courts.

100% this. American military kills all sorts of civilians around the world. Now we're going to get sued for it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


Rep. Steve Chabot (R-OH) suggested to FBI Director James Comey that Hillary Clinton had broken her college’s honor code by using a private email server.

He's actually implying that Hillary had internet and email in 1965?
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh sure. Saul Alinsky delivered it to her straight from Al Gore's internet lab
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:57 PM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


And what rankles me most is that he stiffs people who have the kind of skilled-trade and professional jobs that the US economy relies upon. Piano tuning isn't a big industry, but you can't outsource it. Can't ship the job of your HVAC installer overseas, but you can put the company out of business by not paying the bill.

And it looks like he and his kids prey specifically on small companies that want the work and the chance to say they worked on a TrumpOrg project, but won't have the capital or legal muscle to sue. They're fucking parasites.
posted by holgate at 12:58 PM on September 28, 2016 [64 favorites]


The honor code was very specific and forward looking.
posted by mazola at 12:58 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


I remember when my dad was conned by someone. Not much money, but he was ashamed of himself. Mortified. That's partly why it's taken so long for these stories to come out. Not just because many of those stiffed will have (at best) signed NDAs as part of their meagre settlement, but because it's re-opening scars, especially for proud men who try to run honest businesses. I think we'll hear more and more of those stories now, with safety in numbers.

It reminds me of the Cosby allegations; When it was just his word against a single accuser, his victims were hesitant to come forward, but now that they know that they weren't the only ones, they have more courage to put themselves out there. If nothing else, the past few years have been an incredible shattering of illusions for children of the '80s -- Just like Cosby wasn't really a good-hearted family man, neither was Trump the wizard of business and trickle-down riches that he presented himself as.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is clearly a time-traveler! That explains how it is that she's been "fighting ISIS her entire adult life."
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


My October Surprise dream involves the revelation of a Watergate-style smoking gun between the Trump campaign, and Cozy and Fancy Bear. Unlikely to happen since Nixon's ratfucking took months of work to uncover by a news media willing to do the work, but one can dream.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


The breathtaking weak stupidity of the honor code accusation is breaking my brain. If I had any evens left, I'd go find out his alma mater honor code and list the ways he's broken it since graduating, but I can't. I am out of them.
posted by emjaybee at 1:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's actually implying that Hillary had internet and email in 1965?

No. He says the honor code at his school was that you were never to lie or be dishonest, even after you left the school. In his mind Hillary Clinton lied and was dishonest about her email server so therefore if her school had an honor code like his school did ten she broke that honor code.

Like every single person who ever graduated from a school with an honor code lived the rest of their life in complete honesty and never once told a lie until they died.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Well that makes more sense, thanks.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


100% this. American military kills all sorts of civilians around the world. Now we're going to get sued for it.

Well if getting sued a few times motivates us to stop killing civilians I think I can live with that hardship.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


My October Surprise dream involves the revelation of a Watergate-style smoking gun between the Trump campaign, and Cozy and Fancy Bear. Unlikely to happen since Nixon's ratfucking took months of work to uncover by a news media willing to do the work, but one can dream.

What if we found out that Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear were Trump's secret nicknames for his toupees?
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is clearly a time-traveler! That explains how it is that she's been 'fighting ISIS her entire adult life.'

All the more reason to vote for her. She's been SILENCING ISIS ALL HER LIFE.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:13 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


My October Surprise dream involves the revelation of a Watergate-style smoking gun between the Trump campaign, and Cozy and Fancy Bear.

he still wouldn't poll lower than 38%
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:14 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


"If I'd really wanted to win, I would have. Besides, the moderator was against me. Besides, the microphone wasn't working."

He's beside himself!
posted by SillyShepherd at 1:17 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Claire McCaskill @clairecmc: The D women Senators have talked & we're concerned about Donald's weight. Campaign stress? We think a public daily weigh-in is called for.


About the infidelity story. The truth is that a large segment of Trump supporters probably do buy into the idea that men stray because it is natural and is the wife's job to make sure the husband does not stray. Watch this Daily Show clip where Jordan Klepper interviews Pastor Mark Burns from the RNC. The pastor blames Hillary for Bill's infidelities yet says we should not judge Donald for his because "We are all sinners."

They sell some merchandise at the Trump rallies which reflects this idea. "Bill chose Monica so why would we chose Hillary?" kind of thing. In this patriarchal world the woman is supposed to be sexy enough and desirable enough that her husband will stay home. If he strays it is because she did something wrong-- like not being young or pretty or offering him blow jobs. It is incredible that in 2016 some men still think this way, but there we are.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:17 PM on September 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


He says the honor code at his school was that you were never to lie or be dishonest, even after you left the school.

The First Corollary to Trump's Razor: there is no lower bound on the definition of "the stupidest thing possible given the available facts". There is always a stupider thing that is possible.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Latest from Prachi Gupta at Cosmo: Chelsea Clinton Discusses the First Debate, Her Mom's Pneumonia, and More
posted by melissasaurus at 1:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


UPDATE: Chelsea: "Bring it" [true]
posted by whuppy at 1:25 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


MSNBC is showing a graphic showing Gary Johnson in first place in New Hampshire among Millenials. First place. Ugggghhgh.
posted by Justinian at 1:26 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


"What is New Hampshire?"
posted by sallybrown at 1:27 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Latest from Prachi Gupta at Cosmo: Chelsea Clinton Discusses the First Debate, Her Mom's Pneumonia, and More

"I don’t remember a time in my life when my parents and my family weren’t being attacked." Aww man :(
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:29 PM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is clearly a time-traveler! That explains how it is that she’s been ‘fighting ISIS her entire adult life.’

And so Hillary Clinton finds herself leaping from campaign to campaign, striving to put right what once went wrong and hoping each time that her next campaign… will be the one for President.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [39 favorites]


My October Surprise dream involves the revelation of a Watergate-style smoking gun between the Trump campaign, and Cozy and Fancy Bear.

he still wouldn't poll lower than 38%


Sure, and some people still think Nixon's misconduct wasn't that bad. Reagan's fuckers have got thinktank employment for life. But TrumpBear hopefully would kill Trump for some key stakeholders, such as the media outlets that have let him ride on false equivalence for months now.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The whole country would tear into the moderator for shutting down a debate that they have waited months to watch. And they'd be right.

While yanking him off the stage would probably not be super great, having a giant "PENALTIES" number that counts up behind each participant would be HILARIOUS.
posted by Shepherd at 1:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Why the mediocre male's days may be numbered [Jessica Valenti for the Guardian]
Quite a few of my feminist friends are fond of a tote bag that reads, “Lord, Give Me the Confidence of a Mediocre White Man”. It’s a cheeky nod to a scenario familiar to most women: a bombastic but woefully under-informed man who is convinced of how much smarter he is than you. [...]

It’s a winning time for any woman who has ever been called bossy – the “bitches”, the know-it-alls, the Tracy Flicks and Leslie Knopes. Being studied and nerdy is almost never considered an admirable characteristic in a woman, but this week it was.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:33 PM on September 28, 2016 [28 favorites]


"I don’t remember a time in my life when my parents and my family weren’t being attacked."

Just in case anyone forgot, she was 12 when Rush Limbaugh called her the "White House dog." Twelve is a tough time to be a girl, let alone one in the public eye. And these men felt no shame about going after her (not that anyone's surprised that it was about her looks, because that's how they deal with women).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 1:37 PM on September 28, 2016 [69 favorites]


Conspiracy alert!

Breaking: POKER PRO AGREES – Hillary Was Sending Hand Signals to Debate Moderator Holt Headline taken from Gateway Pundit, part of the Breitbart crowd. Not much to the article except a video showing her rubbing her nose. They claim that she has never, ever done this before! So it was clearly a signal to Lester Holt and a poker expert, Mike Matusow, wrote a tweet to say he agrees.

So there you have it. I'm not sure what Lester Holt did once she signaled him but it was probably something that made Trump sniffle.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump with a totally reasonable and sane denial that his campaign's mood is dark. Sounds like things are going swimmingly over there today.
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mike Matusow is a walking aneurysm waiting to happen.
posted by PenDevil at 1:39 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


If William and Mary holds Clinton to their honor code 40 years post-graduation, I can only assume that Steely Dan won't be the only ones who are never going back to their old school.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trivial but fun:

The Daily Beast: The Word ‘America’ Spelled Wrong on Trump’s D.C. Hotel Menu
Debate-themed menus at the Benjamin Bar & Lounge, the lobby bar of Donald Trump’s new Trump International Hotel Washington D.C., spelled the word “America” wrong.

Specifically, if you ordered the “Benjamin beer silver bucket,” priced at $100 per person, you would be treated to “unlimited Amerrica beer.”

Also on the menu? “Trump sliders” and “Hillary hummus,” both for $29 bucks a pop.
I wonder if the printer is going to get paid?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:44 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


So there you have it. I'm not sure what Lester Holt did once she signaled him but it was probably something that made Trump sniffle.

This just in: Trump's sniffles were actually Morse code. Translated, they repeatedly form the letters H...E...L...P...
posted by Mchelly at 1:44 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Part 2 of Trump's response to Katy Tur, re the children:
They are happier than ever before, as they should be, given the success in the polls and in Monday's debate. There is no truth to this fabricated lie. The business continues to be tremendously successful. Forbes knows nothing about Mr. Trump, his company or his assets, which are among the best in the world.
LOLZ
posted by sallybrown at 1:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


The true crime on that menu is not the typo, but rather the fact that they are selling all-you-can-drink Budweiser for $100/person.
posted by zachlipton at 1:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


TPM: Eric Trump: 'I’ll Always Remember' My Dad Not Bringing Up Bill Clinton
"I mean, he very well could’ve looked down—and he said it when he came off the debate stage, ‘I wasn’t gonna respond to that question because I saw Chelsea in the front row and I just wasn’t gonna go there out of respect for her,'" Eric Trump told Iowa radio host Simon Conway, according to a clip highlighted by Buzzfeed News. “And that was a big moment for me and probably will actually become — my life and this campaign — and probably something I’ll always remember."

He said his dad "really took the high ground where he had the opportunity to go very, very low."

"I’m really proud of him for doing that. And I think a lot of people recognize that," Eric Trump said. "I don’t know, I think that took a lot of courage in so many regards and I think he really answered that well and took the high ground and kept the high road."
Best advertisement for Estate Taxes ever. Dear God this family is vile and they haven't a clue.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [50 favorites]


Forbes knows nothing about Mr. Trump, his company or his assets, which are among the best in the world.

Is anything truly knowable in this world? Surely, the greatest and most successful businesses of the mighty Trump must be the deepest of mysteries that no one mind can truly comprehend or even really be aware of. As the humble anchovy can scarcely comprehend the vastness of the ocean, so is Forbes to the business empire of his eminence of Trump.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:49 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Forbes knows nothing about Mr. Trump, his company or his assets, which are among the best in the world.

CALLED IT!!!!
posted by chris24 at 1:50 PM on September 28, 2016


Mod note: Trump's Second Debate Preparation Survey real
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 1:50 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Trump sliders" is one of those combinations of words where you know you shouldn't eat the thing. Like "Marked down for quick sale shrimp."
posted by blnkfrnk at 1:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Omg, the White House Dog thing. I remember when that happened--I was 22, she was just a little girl. Now I'm a mom with a 12 year old daughter and recalling that makes me want to disembowel Rush Limbaugh. What a shit stain he is.
posted by Sublimity at 1:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [35 favorites]


TPM: Eric Trump: 'I’ll Always Remember' My Dad Not Bringing Up Bill Clinton

Remember, remember, the 26th of September!
posted by sallybrown at 1:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


The Trumps really do believe that having been cheated on is something that can be used to attack Hillary Clinton, like it's some kind of nuclear strike. That's... hideous, but also hilariously sad and sadly hilarious.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:52 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


That debate prep survey is hilarious. I want to fill the entire thing out by always selecting "other" and typing in YOU ARE RACIST.
posted by prefpara at 1:54 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump's Second Debate Preparation Survey [real]

I filled one of these out before the first debate. I chose the "[Trump is] Too Moderate" option and wrote some comments about how he should yell as much as possible, so I think I deserve a little credit for Monday night
posted by theodolite at 1:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [72 favorites]


As in, Trump's trying to associate Hillary with Middle Eastern food? Sheesh.

That, and also wussy, feminine vegetarian food.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


There is no truth to this fabricated lie.

Yeah, I was just seeing that from Tur's tweet and couldn't help laugh out loud; I said on twitter that as denials go it has a remarkable density to it.

Like, the campaign's position is that it's a lie. Okay? It's a lie.

But not just your run-of-the-mill lie. This is worse. This is the bad kind. The fabricated lie. They didn't even get this lie from somewhere credible: they just fabricated. It's a fabricated lie.

But. I can't emphasize this enough. It's not even the sort of fabricated lie that is true. It doesn't even have that going for it.

There is no truth to this fabricated lie.
posted by cortex at 1:56 PM on September 28, 2016 [52 favorites]


Oh my god they are seriously crowd sourcing his debate prep. Donnie, do your own damn homework.
posted by like_neon at 1:57 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


The true crime on that menu is not the typo, but rather the fact that they are selling all-you-can-drink Budweiser for $100/person.

I can get 138 cans of Budweiser at Bevmo for $100 and get $0.31 change.
But who would do such a thing? #racer5
posted by kirkaracha at 1:58 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Does Trump's Razor come with Trump's Mirror?
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:58 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Natural lies always contain trace elements of truth, you need to fabricate them in a sterile environment to ensure 100% truthlessness
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Oh my god they are seriously crowd sourcing his debate prep

No they're not. These are push polls, and bad ones at that.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


I just love that right now his kids are "happier than ever before...AS THEY SHOULD BE." Their wedding days? Meh. The births of their children? Feh. Nope, it's today - as they should be.
posted by sallybrown at 1:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


MSNBC is showing a graphic showing Gary Johnson in first place in New Hampshire among Millenials. First place.

I think we can look at the Free State Project and find that's not really that surprising.
posted by corb at 2:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]




The Trumps really do believe that having been cheated on is something that can be used to attack Hillary Clinton, like it's some kind of nuclear strike. That's... hideous, but also hilariously sad and sadly hilarious.

It's the alt-right's biggest fear. That's why they use "cuck" as the ultimate insult. They're terrified of it happening to them.
posted by rocket88 at 2:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [21 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is clearly a time-traveler! That explains how it is that she's been "fighting ISIS her entire adult life."

That explains why the Republican primaries were so concerned with killing baby Hitler!
posted by Rangi at 2:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's Second Debate Preparation Survey [real]

These are so much fun cause there's a place to add your own snark for each and every question!
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


That debate prep survey is hilarious. I want to fill the entire thing out by always selecting "other" and typing in YOU ARE RACIST.

I requested that he focus more on Benghazi and emails.

Seriously though, such a survey might actually be a decent idea, if it weren't written like a push poll! There is no way to glean any useful info from this survey, because anyone who supports him will just say 'yes' to every single question.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


> Does Trump's Razor come with Trump's Mirror?
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:58 PM on September 28 [+] [!]


Yes, and to complete the set you also receive a bucket full of Trump's sh.... AAAAAAVING CREAM! BE NICE AND CLEAN!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Chuck Todd on MSNBC is talking about the NBC poll showing Clinton blew out Trump in the debate. He'd like to emphasize it is a scientific poll of debate watchers, not an online poll where anybody can vote, refresh the widget, and vote again no matter which Russian province they are from. [real].
posted by Justinian at 2:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


Does Trump's Razor come with Trump's Mirror?

Earlier, I proposed a whole shaving kit
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


SNL premieres Saturday; Alec Baldwin will be playing Trump.

A known blowhard who's sent racist tweets? Are they sure they cast the right actor for the role?
posted by zachlipton at 2:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I said he needs to defend himself aggressively against the lies and slurs promoted by the lib media. Also to bring up taxes a lot because that can't go wrong.
posted by asteria at 2:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


TPM: Eric Trump: 'I’ll Always Remember' My Dad Not Bringing Up Bill Clinton

When a man takes the high road for the first and only time in his life, that's a red letter day, right there. Worth remembering. Big damn hero, perhaps. Maybe it's even worth writing a song about. We should put up a statue or something.

It's impressive right up until the moment where he brags about taking the high road.
posted by zarq at 2:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


(Trump's Mirror was a name provided by Devonian based on a concept proposed by flug)
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay, maybe not.
posted by zarq at 2:05 PM on September 28, 2016



I hope the Trump kids are indeed unhappy about the 'business'. I've seen a couple of articles over the past month or so about apparent downturns in visits to at least some Trump branded properties. And I think last week there was some article that mentioned that the restaurant in his new Washington hotel was dead and that the per night price room price had been halved in just over a week.

I hope they have their sheets of numbers that look bad and are unsettled and frustrated. Frustrated because I just don't see them at this point comprehending the roots of the reason why it's happening. It's telling if they're upset about the business that they blame the campaign heads. Of course that's the reason why right? They're just not doing the campaign right? Dad running is supposed to INCREASE business because more people will love him right?

It couldn't be because it's Dad is a total ass that turns more of the people off that would use his brand then gathers them. It couldn't be that the campaign has illuminated to more people and more of the wider world the truth about his ASS-ets and that it's making "The Brand' more and more repulsive.

Nah couldn't be that. We're Trumps and we're awesome.
posted by Jalliah at 2:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump cuts his Trump's Cocaine with Trump's razor and snorts it off Trump's Mirror.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


And so Hillary Clinton finds herself leaping from campaign to campaign, striving to put right what once went wrong and hoping each time that her next campaign… will be the one for President.

Man, I thought that ending "Sam Beckett never returned home" thing was depressing, but the idea that someone would have to stay in this election cycle forever... sign me up for the rock-rolling or liver-eating-eagle instead, because that's just way too much for any offense.
posted by phearlez at 2:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


asteria, that's gold. I said he needs to assert his dominance much more forcefully because during the first debate, he was far too meek.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


"TPM: Eric Trump: 'I’ll Always Remember' My Dad Not Bringing Up Bill Clinton"

The press's assumption seems to be Bill's infidelity. I think the rumor Trump backed away from is the one that makes Chelsea the love child of Hillary and Web Hubbell, because it's scientific fact that daughters always favor their fathers, and just look at her. Yes, I've heard this rumor from an otherwise sane-appearing GS bureaucrat.
posted by klarck at 2:12 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Trump cuts his Trump's Cocaine with Trump's razor and snorts it off Trump's Mirror.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:06 PM on September 28 [3 favorites −] [!]


note: although several years ago Trump briefly sold cocaine through an exclusive deal with Sharper Image, he is no longer in the cocaine business. What Trump presented as Trump's Cocaine at that press conference a few months back was actually just repackaged cocaine from Bush Brothers.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:12 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary Clinton is clearly a time-traveler!

Given Carolyn Wilke's tweet...
People criticizing Clinton's preparedness probably also don't realize Hermione is the only reason Harry Potter survived 7 books
...I'm guessing she has the Time-Turner.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:12 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


What about Trump's Cuticle Scissors: something a normal person believes is simply a part of being a human being in 2016's society (i.e. not attacking a woman on the basis that her husband had an affair, not operating a racially discriminatory club, giving more than $5 to a charitable cause over the course of your life) is something Trump believes he deserves great credit for doing.
posted by zachlipton at 2:13 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh my god they are seriously crowd sourcing his debate prep. Donnie, do your own damn homework.

I helped.
posted by mazola at 2:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


> Trump's Second Debate Preparation Survey [real]

The Hillary campaign would love to thank Trump for giving them even more information about how Trump internals saw performance of the first debate. And what areas they think they need to 'hone' the message.

Also: no mention of minorities in that survey. Apparently they aren't going to address any of that.
posted by mrzarquon at 2:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


The press's assumption seems to be Bill's infidelity. I think the rumor Trump backed away from is the one that makes Chelsea the love child of Hillary and Web Hubbell

Holy hell I think you're right. This is going to be the "October surprise," isn't it
posted by theodolite at 2:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh gosh, I hope so.
posted by asteria at 2:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Quite honestly, one of the things that has most surprised me this election is learning that there are many people who took the premise of The Apprentice seriously and did not assume it was a comedy show about self-aggrandizing hateful idiots humiliating themselves for a chance at a fake job offered by another self-aggrandizing hateful idiot.

I'm no expert but I did watch one season of the Celebrity Apprentice, and it wasn't comedy, it wasn't funny at all. It was manufactured drama by reality tv editing techniques, humiliation porn, and a commercial for the Trump mythos and businesses connected to it.

Americans tend to elect presidents who have a sense of humor. Does Trump Know How to Laugh?
posted by peeedro at 2:24 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Here's a clip of the Lawrence O'Donnell piece on "She deserved it."
posted by melissasaurus at 2:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Breaking: POKER PRO AGREES – Hillary Was Sending Hand Signals to Debate Moderator Holt Headline taken from Gateway Pundit, part of the Breitbart crowd

The Stupidest Man on the Internet strikes again!
posted by octothorpe at 2:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also: no mention of minorities in that survey. Apparently they aren't going to address any of that.

I left very explicit instructions. If they take my advice, it'll be the lede item the day after the debates.
posted by klarck at 2:31 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also: no mention of minorities in that survey. Apparently they aren't going to address any of that.

'Law and order' is mentioned twice.
posted by beerperson at 2:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Just in case anyone forgot, she was 12 when Rush Limbaugh called her the "White House dog."

And don't forget John McCain standing up for a speech at a rich donor fundraising dinner and saying "Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father."

I'm still amazed at Democrats who consider McCain to be a respected statesman.
posted by JackFlash at 2:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [53 favorites]


I've been lurking on all these threads, and I'm still catching up, but I just wanted to let you all know that I ordered the Vagenda of Manocide T-shirt that was linked a few threads back, and it came yesterday! I literally [literally] squeeed when I opened my mailbox.

Also, in the spirit of vagendaofmanocide.com linking to Hillary's donation page, so now does 400poundhackersforhillary.com.
posted by mon-ma-tron at 2:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


The survey is not at all genuine. I doubt they are even planning to look at the responses. It is indeed 100% a push poll: it's designed as a spin, to attempt to draw attention again to the points he tried [failed] to make authoritatively in the debate, and to incentivize people to share it (look! Trump wants our opinions!) and bring more users to his website. Don't bother getting your keyboard dirty.
posted by Miko at 2:36 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I entered no information in the poll and used a made-up email and random ZIP, hit submit, it accepted the poll and took me to a donation page. Not a real survey.
posted by Miko at 2:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just answered the survey on Trump's website and on the field where they want you to write any other recommendations I wrote

"Don't jump into the PC bandwagon, I will be so disappointed if you do. We want you strong and masculine"

I also voted for emphasis on his businesses and success rather than policy.

I know it's just one vote but I want to do my part in manipulating his ego.
posted by Tarumba at 2:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]




I'm usually not a fan of the old "tell us about your faith" debate question, but I'd kinda like to see Trump twist in the wind with that one for 120 seconds.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Just in case that NYT review of that Hitler biography was too subtle, John Cole explains it all for you.
posted by Gelatin at 2:49 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


I mean, does it end with him something about Trumpism being a big old happy tent and everybody welcome?
posted by Artw at 2:50 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


However, some sort of medal should be struck for those who did raise their hands. Even if they were at a Trump rally.
posted by Devonian at 2:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's Mirror.

Worst. Magic. Item. Ever:

Wonderous item, rare

A gold-adorned, gilt framed highly polished mirror.
Curse. The item is cursed, and all the a user sees when looking into the mirror is the large head of an orange human with strange hair, known as the Trump. The image will speak whether or not it is spoken to, but little sense can be made of what it is saying, and it usually just makes insulting and belittling comments towards the user, especially if that person is a woman. Occasionally, the hands of the orange human in the mirror will appear as he gesticulates during a rant; they have short fingers but are otherwise unremarkable. Anyone who looks into the mirror suffers disadvantage on all Persuasion and Performance checks for the next day, as their speech patterns begin to mimic that of the Trump within. Dropping the mirror and leaving it behind ends the curse, and whoever finds it is advised to do so quickly.
posted by nubs at 2:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [34 favorites]


I ended up filling out the survey, in 30 "other, specify" fields, as mostly a meditative flare in the darkness to the notional human being stuck coding/sorting the answers, should someone get stuck with that job regardless of the naked emptiness of the page as any kind of useful tool for the campaign. It was a little cathartic.
posted by cortex at 2:54 PM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Dust of Trump - when used in combination with the Mirror of Trump the player becomes convinced that their words are wonderfully persuasive, while actually suffering a -1 penalty to CHA. Using the dust more than once in a week causes 1d6 damage and a -1 penalty to constitution.
posted by Artw at 2:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Let's say I'm a very goody-two-shoes paladin type, like, say I'm the reason people roll their eyes when paladins are around, and I trip across a Trump's Mirror.

What do I do with it?

If I lose it, someone else will find it.

If I keep it, I'll be corrupted by it.

I have no way of knowing what would happen if I broke it. Would it unleash the Trump? Would we have to go on some sort of overblown quest to save the world from the consequences of my pious mirror-smashing?

Or would it just break?

Is there any way to purge it of its evil?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [33 favorites]


@jameshohmann: TRUMP in IOWA: "Raise your hand if you're NOT a Christian conservative. I want to see that. There's a few of them. Should we keep them?"

So ya
Thought ya
Might like to
Go to the show.
To feel that warm thrill of confusion,
That space cadet glow...
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


Let's say I'm a very goody-two-shoes paladin type, like, say I'm the reason people roll their eyes when paladins are around, and I trip across a Trump's Mirror.

Nominee, Best Metafilter Derail, Election Thread Division
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [34 favorites]


Super goody two shoes paladin would turn it in to the local magistrate or closest authority figure with jurisdiction and trust the infallibility of the law in handling the matter.
posted by lazaruslong at 3:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


In my campaign it can be destroyed if crushed by Talos the triple iron golem - but I'm a softy DM.
posted by Golem XIV at 3:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is there any way to purge it of its evil?

Sounds like a perfect job for a Mirror of Opposition!
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm working on the Trump survey. Here's some of my answers:

1. Which issue do you think Mr. Trump was strongest on during the first debate?
-Nose-sniffing.

2. Which issue do you think Mr. Trump should focus more on in the next debate?
-Racist tirades.

3. Should Trump call out Hillary for lying about her stance on the job-killing trade deal TPP during the first debate?
-I think that's too long a sentence for Donald to repeat.

4. Should Trump lay out how his business, private-sector experience will directly benefit the economy?
-Yes, let's get soldiers and sailors to fight a war and then not pay them!

5. On the subject of Hillary’s emails, should Trump have brought up the fact that Hillary jeopardized our national security?
-You still have an AOL account, don't you.

6. Should Trump have brought up Hillary’s failure in Benghazi as a disqualification for the presidency?
-Ben Gazzara was FINE actor.

7. Should Trump call out Hillary for flip-flopping on NAFTA and TPP in an attempt to gain votes from Bernie’s supporters?
-He should call her out on IDGAF.

8.When discussing cybersecurity, should Trump bring up Hillary’s unsecured secret server left vulnerable to hackers?
-The cyber. Needs security. Put Barron on the job!

9.Should Trump continue to tie Hillary to Obama’s failed policies including ObamaCare ...?
-Under the ACA I've paid between $130 - $275 a month for my health ins. premium. Without it, I'd be paying about $900. So I'm definitely against Obamacare.
posted by NorthernLite at 3:08 PM on September 28, 2016 [27 favorites]


Super goody two shoes paladin would turn it in to the local magistrate or closest authority figure with jurisdiction and trust the infallibility of the law in handling the matter.

Whatever happened to just dropping it in a deep dark hole or into the ocean? Bonus side effect of weakening any kraken or selkie that comes across the mirror.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


I like where your head's at but that's a chaotic good answer.
posted by lazaruslong at 3:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


HaHA Northernlite, my answers were similar...don't know if anyone will read them, but it was fun
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:11 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm curious about the context, but, at the same time, there's no context that could possibly make that good thing for a presidential candidate to say. Ever.

To be fair, he did leave the decision of whether to tear the heathens to shreds up to the angry mob.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:12 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


>> Whatever happened to just dropping it in a deep dark hole or into the ocean? Bonus side effect of weakening any kraken or selkie that comes across the mirror.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:09 PM on September 28 [2 favorites +] [!]

> I like where your head's at but that's a chaotic good answer.
posted by lazaruslong at 3:10 PM on September 28 [3 favorites +] [!]


lazaruslong is right. I can't throw it in the ocean. like, right now I'm picturing a giant mirror-wielding Kraken heaving itself up into the narrow streets of Waterdeep, sort of sliming around like an unnaturally huge coked-up adenoid, laying gross waste to everything in its path.

I... I think I have to give it to the local magistrate.

Tyr, forgive me.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:13 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


The amazing thing about that survey is it is literally just going to feed into their myopic and narrow world view.

These fuck knuckles actually think asking their supporters how they want to see Hillary attacked is going to help win the debate. They don't even know they need to convince the people who have yet to get a Trump email or been to their website before.
posted by mrzarquon at 3:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm usually not a fan of the old "tell us about your faith" debate question, but I'd kinda like to see Trump twist in the wind with that one for 120 seconds.

It would also be a slam-dunk question for HRC. I had no idea before this election, but she is super duper religious in a "Christ calls us to help the people" way.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Vic Berger strikes again:
Donald Trump and Jimmy Fallon Are Best Friends
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lawful Good response would be to create and staff a fortress to forever bury the cursed artefact.

Maybe even found a Secret Order to ensure that it will forever be forgotten by the public and to prevent the inadvertent creation of another.
posted by porpoise at 3:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I like the push-back to what seems to have become the perceived truth: that Trump was winning the debate for the first twenty minutes

I dunno about "winning", but he was "not fucking up horribly". If I was grading their performances in the first 20 minutes, Trump would get a solid C: not a failure, but seriously weak within the range of acceptability. Clinton would have been a B+: high performance within the "competent but not excellent" cohort.

Clinton was still winning in the first 20 minutes, as far as I can see, but not in a way which made me feel bad for everyone involved with trying to prepare Trump.
posted by jackbishop at 3:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


In my campaign it can be destroyed if crushed by Talos the triple iron golem - but I'm a softy DM.
posted by Golem XIV at 3:05 PM


also eponyyouknowwhat
posted by Existential Dread at 3:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


> It would also be a slam-dunk question for HRC. I had no idea before this election, but she is super duper religious in a "Christ calls us to help the people" way.

"Many people are concerned about the role of religion in politics. How would you describe your relationship to your faith and how it influences your decisions as a leader?"
posted by mrzarquon at 3:17 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]




Speaking of the Trump kids, Ivanka is supposed to be the most likable/"Trumps: They're Just Like Us!" one of the bunch, but even here there's this astounding lack of awareness that this...isn't...a very charming story for at least 90% of the US population (and reads like a Borowitz Report parody):

"I had a whole lot of lemonade stands growing up, which were helpful in learning about business on the most fundamental level," she says.

But the Trump kids' lemonade stands weren't like most other kids' lemonade stands.

"First of all, my mother wasn't about to let us set up shop with a lemonade stand at Fifth Avenue and 57th Street — and to do so in the lobby of Trump Tower would have been just a little too precious, don't you think?" she writes.

So they made an arrangement to set up shop one summer at their house in Greenwich, Connecticut, and the kids agreed to keep track of the costs of the lemonade and reimburse "the house" for those expenses out of their proceeds.

Ivanka Trump, Donald Trump Jr., and Eric Trump
Ivanka Trump, Donald Trump Jr., and Eric Trump Courtesy of Ivanka Trump

"The only trouble with this arrangement was our location — not a typical Trump problem," she writes. "We were at the end of a cul-de-sac in an affluent community of spacious homes on sprawling properties. In every other respect, this was a prime spot, but it was a dead zone for aspiring lemonade magnates."

Ivanka writes that she and her brothers used their "wily charms and persuasive marketing skills" to get their bodyguard, their parents' driver, and some of the household staff to buy enough lemonade to cover their expenses. They "took pity on us and dug deep for their spare change," she writes.

"We made the best of a bad situation, I guess — a lesson we'd utilize again and again as we moved on in business," Ivanka writes.

posted by blue suede stockings at 3:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]


Today, Rush Limbaugh urged his listeners, “not to fall for fact-checks.” Angry White Men have finally reached peak stupidity.

Which, if you fall for it, gives it even more power, because if you think that the fact-checkers like PolitiFact or Snopes, or whoever else, if you quote them constantly as the Bible, well then you've fallen for it.

You leave Snopes out of this!
posted by Going To Maine at 3:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Everyday something else happens that leaves me more impressed with how prepared Clinton's campaign is.
Trump brings Chelsea into the discussion. And then with no fuss or fanfare Chelsea is out there calmly responding and doing a bang up job at directing it all back to Trump. And double bonus points for how she's showing, by example that yet again Trump was being a sexist twit.

Chelsea: "Hey fuckwit. I can handle whatever you throw at me."
posted by Jalliah at 3:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


okay apologies for the derail but nevertheless I think you'll find that with that adenoid thing I've taken an insurmountable lead in the competition for most recherché intertextual allusion to Donald Trump's resemblance to Hitler.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump's Mirror.

Worst. Magic. Item. Ever:

Wonderous item, rare

A gold-adorned, gilt framed highly polished mirror.
Curse. The item is cursed, and all the a user sees when looking into the mirror is the large head of an orange human with strange hair, known as the Trump. The image will speak whether or not it is spoken to, but little sense can be made of what it is saying, and it usually just makes insulting and belittling comments towards the user, especially if that person is a woman. Occasionally, the hands of the orange human in the mirror will appear as he gesticulates during a rant; they have short fingers but are otherwise unremarkable. Anyone who looks into the mirror suffers disadvantage on all Persuasion and Performance checks for the next day, as their speech patterns begin to mimic that of the Trump within. Dropping the mirror and leaving it behind ends the curse, and whoever finds it is advised to do so quickly.


Follow up question: does this item have any power whatsoever over characters who are women? I would think the effect would be much lesser, which could lend itself to a secret society of badass women mages or clerics dedicated to tracking down and removing these items from society.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Man, clearly I am from the Internet and I am here to help, but that debate question website should really have some kind of chess battle system set up to make sure that the best material rises to the top.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:21 PM on September 28, 2016


Ivanka writes that she and her brothers used their "wily charms and persuasive marketing skills" to get their bodyguard, their parents' driver, and some of the household staff to buy enough lemonade to cover their expenses. They "took pity on us and dug deep for their spare change," she writes.

"Let them buy lemonade!"
posted by sallybrown at 3:22 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Basically for the first 20mins it looked like Trump might clear the bar that had been lowered for him, then he ran headfirst into it in a way that could not be ignored.

It'll be lowered to "doesn't look like he's on cocaine" for the next one.
posted by Artw at 3:23 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


7. Should Trump call out Hillary for flip-flopping on NAFTA and TPP in an attempt to gain votes from Bernie’s supporters?
-He should call her out on IDGAF.


I immediately imagined his campaign people going. "IDGAF? What trade deal is that" *they go and use The Google* "Ohhhhhh"
posted by Jalliah at 3:24 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Show of hands, does anyone really think he'll be able to get through a townhall debate without directly insulting one of the townspeople and/or an entire swath of the American public?
posted by yasaman at 3:25 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Update: Doge ancestry confirmed. SHOW US THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE, DOGALD!
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 3:26 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]



Show of hands, does anyone really think he'll be able to get through a townhall debate without directly insulting one of the townspeople and/or an entire swath of the American public?


I don't know why people think this, he's done several town halls at this point.
posted by zutalors! at 3:28 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Any in front of unfriendly/mixed audiences?
posted by Artw at 3:29 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


will they really be unfriendly though? I'm not so sure.
posted by zutalors! at 3:30 PM on September 28, 2016


I don't know why people think this, he's done several town halls at this point.

He's only done ones that are already friendly to him and to be even blunter only ones that mostly have white people in them and talking. This one is likely to be one of the most diverse crowds he's had to talk too during this election.
posted by Jalliah at 3:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


will they really be unfriendly though? I'm not so sure.

Not unfriendly per say but not friendly in the sense that in his previous Townhalls they are self selecting people that already like him enough to show up.
posted by Jalliah at 3:34 PM on September 28, 2016


Yes, but he likes talking to an audience and being of the people or whatever. I doubt any of the questioners is going to get aggressive on any topic, unless it's Hillary and email/Benghazi.
posted by zutalors! at 3:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure he's done town hall settings where half of the people were definitely for the other side and not remotely receptive to a message of "America sucks so we need to smash everyone who gets in our way, including our own citizens who don't agree with how great America would be if we all went back to 1953."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:34 PM on September 28, 2016



I'm guessing Clinton would not agree to having an audience vetted to include only Trump supporters.


yeah, that's not what I said.
posted by zutalors! at 3:35 PM on September 28, 2016


In my dreams, the town hall is filled with women: women of color, teenage girls, poor women, rich women, women veterans, elderly women, gay women, women small business owners, nuns, trans women, overweight women, new U.S. citizen women, crying little baby girls, women who are artists and lawyers and farmers, and then when the lights dim and the show starts, the first woman stands up to ask a question and it's Rosie O'Donnell. And then Trump has to spend hours answering the questions of women, whether he finds them fuckable or not. And there's no Kellyanne Conway or Ivanka Trump there to help him...it's just Trump and the women, and the women have all the power.
posted by sallybrown at 3:35 PM on September 28, 2016 [77 favorites]


The Rude Pundit: In Brief: An Implication of Donald Trump's Claim on Opposition to the Iraq War:
Lots of commentators commentated on how Republican presidential candidate and moldy cantaloupe in a poorly-tailored suit Donald Trump said, "That makes me smart" when Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton accused him of not paying any federal income tax. The implication of that statement was clear: motherfucker is proud he doesn't pay a thing.

But Trump has said many things with implications that seem to make what he's saying, you know, his words, merely the beginning of a terrible story. For instance, his comparison of airports in the United States to airports in China and Qatar implies that countries with little or no democracy are the only ones that can build successful airports. It certainly cuts out the red tape to have a monarchy, as in Qatar. Trump could have mentioned Munich's gorgeous, efficient airport, but that fucks up the narrative on taxes or something.

More importantly, Trump loves to tout his imaginary opposition to the war in Iraq. Sure, the only things on the record pre-war were his "I guess so" when Howard Stern asked if he supported it, and a sort of shit-or-get-off-the-pot response when Neil Cavuto asked him about it on Fox "news."
posted by palindromic at 3:36 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


also Xena is there, running security for the venue.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:37 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


Yes, but he likes talking to an audience and being of the people or whatever. I doubt any of the questioners is going to get aggressive on any topic, unless it's Hillary and email/Benghazi.

Yeah sure he likes an audience. He feeds off his audiences but his audience so far have be mostly 'Trump fuck yah!!" type audiences that will cheer his every word. This isn't likely to be like that at all.
posted by Jalliah at 3:39 PM on September 28, 2016


How do they pick an audience for a town hall? lottery? do the campaigns get seats that they can fill? is it all undecideds?
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:39 PM on September 28, 2016


Gallup selects the audience who are supposedly undecided voters. Personally I do not like that at all. I think "undecided" voters at this point tend to be low information type voters, and that's Trumps wheelhouse.
posted by Justinian at 3:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [28 favorites]


Ashley Feinberg at Deadspin: Trump Kids Can't Seem To Figure Out Why Their Shitty Father's Campaign Is So Shitty:
Trump’s getting blasted for sexist comments, mocked for his shoddy debate skills, and losing any edge he might have had in the polls. Something is definitely wrong—Trump’s three eldest children know that much. They just can’t for the life of them seem to figure out why.

Why does their father keep saying such wildly offensive, off-the-cuff remarks? Why won’t he listen to the advice of his more seasoned advisers? And how come everyone seems to hate him? Because it’s certainly not the kids’ fault, and it’s definitely not their father’s fault.
posted by palindromic at 3:42 PM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Right, but they ask questions and both candidates answer, and the questioner stays quiet. So the question is ISIS, and Clinton answers a normal thing and Trump is like "Take the oil" and they go on to the next question. There isn't going to be a brawl with PoC, I don't think, but I guess we'll see.
posted by zutalors! at 3:44 PM on September 28, 2016


Nah. "Undecideds" are people who consider themselves to be precious snowflakes who are above the fray. "Both sides are awful. I just can't make up my mind."
posted by monospace at 3:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Town Hall formats are stupid. The questions are often incoherent, the audience doesn't know basic information necessary to judge the answers, and the whole thing is uncomfortable. Lincoln-Douglas didn't do a fuckin' town hall.
posted by Justinian at 3:46 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


That Open Debates question site is addictive; I can find plenty of issues I'd love to see both candidates speak about. (Also, a huge muck-pile of questions that reveal the racism and ignorance of the questioners, but I'm bypassing the ones about Sharia law.)

What does "Being an American" mean to you?

If elected, what one issue would you want today's children to remember you for?

What are your plans for dealing with the 600,000 plus homeless.

Congress gets a raise every year regardless, why can't social security?

What do you intend on doing about Mass-incarceration?

posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:47 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


The "Real" art of the CYBER.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 3:51 PM on September 28, 2016


Just watched a bit of Obama and Romney walking around during the 2012 town hall, and if it looks anything like that Trump is definitely going to get into HRC's space Lazio style.
posted by zutalors! at 3:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wrote here that I saw far fewer trump signs on a bike ride Sunday.

Well, tonight there were 10-20 trump sign-holders waving their signs at the biggest intersection between work and home. They certainly did fit the demographic - male and older.

I waved a sign of my own. I am thankful that I made it home without committing vehicular manslaughter. Hold me, metafilter.
posted by Dashy at 3:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ashley Feinberg at Deadspin: Trump Kids Can't Seem To Figure Out Why Their Shitty Father's Campaign Is So Shitty:

This is a nothing piece, written with swears in order to pretend that it has insight. What’s more interesting to me is that it continues this odd trend of covering the Trump children as something apart from Trump himself - particularly Ivanka, which the press has done heaps to paint as a sophisticate who just happens to be attached to the Trump empire. (People seem happy to damn the boys for their actions, but apparently Ivanka’s coat-tails are long enough to elevate them at times.) Perhaps the real story here is that they are all terrible, and that being terrible has been surprisingly effective during this crazy year.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just watched a bit of Obama and Romney walking around during the 2012 town hall, and if it looks anything like that Trump is definitely going to get into HRC's space Lazio style.

Yeah, I'm kinda dreading that. I'd also love it if the Secret Service actually stepped in. I'd be stunned if they haven't had conversations about exactly that.

Someone suggested upthread that Trump be ejected if he can't keep from interrupting, but I think that would backfire. I'm for cutting his mic when it's no longer his turn to talk.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:57 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Frankly, if Trump is clever enough to pay as little as possible in taxes, bully for him. Not for any fraud, of course - that's criminal - but if you can find the holes in the tax code, congrats for being clever. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Except it's not Trump finding the loopholes, it's his accountant. So it's not about being clever, it's about being wealthy. Our tax code is absurdly complicated and yet another way in which wealth begets wealth in our society.
posted by galaxy rise at 3:57 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Town Halls are much more intimate and less confrontational. Their format also allows candidates to be in the spotlight and answer questions alone, which can help prevent one from interrupting and talking over another. Clearly something that Trump has a problem with. In a standard debate where two candidates are standing at a podium, one candidate interjecting and talking over another might not seem that rude. But man, that really stands out in a town hall format. Also, It's harder to ignore, sidestep or refuse to answer Town Hall questions, which is likely to work against Trump.

Back in February, a rabbi asked Hillary Clinton a question about ego, ambition, faith and humility. Her answer was excellent, and obviously heartfelt. That isn't a question you'd see asked in a regular debate format, nor an answer we'd hear in one. And it's a response that might be quite helpful to someone doesn't really have a good sense of whether she'd make a thoughtful President.

Audiences need to know that their candidates know their facts and understand policy. But a Town Hall format can allow us to see the person underneath who is running for office and establish familiarity.

I'd rather watch a Town Hall debate than the other kind. Far more telling.
posted by zarq at 3:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


From WashU:
Tickets to the presidential debates are managed by the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD). If the CPD gives Washington University tickets to the debate on Oct. 9 — and there is never a guarantee that the university will receive any tickets — they will be distributed only to current graduate and undergraduate students via a lottery system. Administrators, faculty, staff, alumni, parents and the public will not be eligible for the lottery. No debate tickets are available to the public through Washington University.
I don't see any current info on debates.org about tickets/attendance, but they had this to say in 2004
posted by zakur at 4:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


What’s more interesting to me is that it continues this odd trend of covering the Trump children as something apart from Trump himself - particularly Ivanka, which the press has done heaps to paint as a sophisticate who just happens to be attached to the Trump empire.

She's pretty and can smile without looking like a shark. She must be a good person.
posted by bongo_x at 4:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm curious about the context

This is Trump - there is no context. His utterances are unconnected, strung together at random, and re-blended as needed. These remarks are like the big chunky beads toddlers play with. None relate to the other in form, color, or weight and all can be randomly recombined to make a noisy drool-catcher that is fun to beat on the floor.
posted by Miko at 4:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


She's pretty and can smile without looking like a shark. She must be a good person.

If Disney ever taught me anything, it's that only ugly people are ever bad.

Unless they're stepmothers, I guess.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Raise your hand if you're NOT a Christian conservative. I want to see that. There's a few of them. Should we keep them?"

@RezaAslan: "...Or should we round them up and send them off to the camps?"
posted by chris24 at 4:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


She was also featured in the documentary about rich kids called "Born Rich", and came off reasonably well, especially considering some of the venomous twits they had there.
Also, maybe some residual sympathy from the publicized split between Donald and her mom, Ivana and the similar name conjures up something?

And yeah, not looking like a homicidal ghoul probably helps.
posted by lkc at 4:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


My Dad (73) got a huge lesson in sexism today. It's something I've talked to him about before and while receptive it's hard for him to get and really see. He does try though.

He's an avid election watcher, watched the debate and was reading some commentary that use the word mansplainning.

"What's mansplaining?" he asked This led to quite a long conversation where I used parts of the debate for example after example of the sorts of sexist behaviour that I and other women experience all the time. Some like the Miss Piggy thing were dead obvious to him but others like the constant interrupting weren't as obvious. At least not the underlying sexism in it. He thought he was an ass and rude. 'Hey Dad remember when I would come home and be all annoyed at my boss because he constantly interrupted me during the meeting we had? Now you've seen it in action. This is a normal experience for us."

It was pretty cool. One 'aha' moment after another.
posted by Jalliah at 4:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [71 favorites]


A lot of "ordinary" people like Trump, but Trump doesn't like "ordinary" people. Trump likes talking to people only so far as he's talking about himself and he's in the position of power. He stages his rallies and press conferences flying in on his plane, or at his own properties; he sleeps in his own properties, where he doesn't have to deal with strangers. The crying baby thing was so weird not because Trump was genuinely angry about the crying baby - we got that he was trying to joke, but he did so in a weird way that kind of humiliated the mom. The biggest downfalls of his campaign have been his inability to stop himself from going after "ordinary" people (the Khans, Alicia Rochado, even Heidi Cruz).

If Trump gaffes at the town hall, it's going to be in response to an ordinary person challenging him on something. Like:
"Mr. Trump, I work hard and pay my taxes because I know it's important to contribute my fair share to the economy. You've said you're proud of not paying federal income tax. You make millions of dollars, so much more than me - isn't it unfair that you don't pay your share?"

"Mr. Trump, I am a new U.S. citizen who came to this country as a refugee from the Bosnian War. Your grandfather was also a refugee when he came to this country. Isn't it hypocritical for you to try and stop other refugees from coming to the United States?"

"Mr. Trump, how can I raise my daughter to have confidence in herself and value her education when our President is someone who calls women "Miss Piggy" for being overweight and judges a woman's worth based on her looks?"
Imagine even just the faces Trump would make listening to those questions. Now, he might be able to modulate himself in responding in the town hall itself, but he will start trying to bully them the minute he leaves the hall - on Twitter, or Fox, or wherever else.
posted by sallybrown at 4:11 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


> And I think last week there was some article that mentioned that the restaurant in his new Washington hotel was dead and that the per night price room price had been halved in just over a week.

Jalliah, I believe that this is the piece you're referring to.

Drinking my iced tea, I gazed over the railing at the lobby, then looked again: There was Ivanka, leading an entourage of eager people with clipboards and notebooks.

Ms. Trump swept up the steps into the restaurant. Half the diners stood up. They weren’t customers, somebody in the entourage said, but employees.


My hope is that Trump's campaign will have a lasting (negative) impact on his business interests. I do feel sorry, though, for the employees. Especially the restaurant FOH - something tells me that Trump supporters are lousy tippers.
posted by Surely This at 4:13 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump Says Kim Kardashian “Has Gotten a Bit Large” [real]

Edit: I guess the comment was in 2013; carry on.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:13 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]






Donald Trump Says Kim Kardashian “Has Gotten a Bit Large” [real]

Oh dear. Poor Trump. This may not be a good for him. Sad
posted by Jalliah at 4:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


If it's revealed that Trump has (legally) paid no federal income tax -- which I strongly suspect is the case -- it's not necessarily a direct indictment of him that's going to sway the electorate. He'll be held to account over the fact that it's possible for someone as rich as he claims to be to pay no taxes, and that he doesn't see a need to fix that.

Clinton will have no problem saying "I would like to fix the tax code such that people as wealthy as Donald contribute their fair share to our society"; Trump cannot credibly claim to have such a plan because he's already all-in on tax cuts for the wealthy.

I mean, I pay as little tax as is legally mandated as well, but that doesn't mean I can't be in favor of raising taxes on people in my income bracket.
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Edit: I guess the comment was in 2013; carry on.

It was but there is no reason that it won't make a comeback considering who he's talking about and how it relates directly to present day events.
posted by Jalliah at 4:22 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


It has begun.
Well, I just got a scammy ass phone call from 650 888 2696 claiming to be a Hillary Victory for America fundraiser.... if i gave a donation now now now, there would be a tripling by a "well heeled donor".
I told this less than tripingly eloquent scam artist that I don't do donations over the phone.
I would very much appreciate it if the Clinton campaign made it crystal clear that they won't solicit over the phone. Ugh.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 4:23 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


WaPo: Donald Trump’s weight problem: He can’t stop talking about ‘fat’ people
Trump called actress Rosie O’Donnell a “fat pig” and said she has a “fat, ugly face.” He said singer Jennifer Lopez has a “fat a--” and said reality television star Kim Kardashian had “gotten a little large” during her pregnancy. He kept a “fat photo” of one employee whose weight fluctuated in a drawer and told an overweight executive, “you like your candy,” according to the employees. When a reporter complimented his wife, Melania, on her appearance shortly after giving birth, Donald Trump replied: “She’s lost almost all the baby weight.”[...]

Trump has long commented on women he believes are attractive, including his daughter, Ivanka, whom Trump said has as “very nice figure.” But he also has singled out celebrities for verbal abuse about their weight, including O’Donnell and Kardashian. He said Kardashian has a “bad body” and that she shouldn’t dress “like you weigh 120 pounds,” a comment he made while she was pregnant.
Because in Donald Trump's head woman were meant for only one purpose-- to be pleasing to men. They have no other reason to exist.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:25 PM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


Also, think of all the people who have been asking Trump questions so far - debate moderators and journalists. He's notably attacked them all. He doesn't have the discipline to restrain himself just because the questioners aren't journalists, I don't think.
"Ordinary" person: "Mr. Trump, you've said black people are living in hell right now and get shot for walking down the street. I own my own small business, was able to raise three great children on my income, and live in a safe, affluent neighborhood. Why treat African Americans as if we all live in poverty and all live the same lives?"

Trump: *grimace* *sardonic laugh* "What's your name? What's your name? Steve? Safety Steve, huh? You own your own business? Good for you, good for you. Probably not as big as my business, but that's all right, that's all right. *laugh* *sniff* For someone who's supposedly living such a nice life, you have a lot to complain about. Colin whatsis name, Kaperna? Whatever, he seems to have a lot to complain about, huh? *laugh* Let me tell you something, let me tell you something, you're here asking me this question like I'M some kind of racist. I'm the least racist person you can imagine, the LEAST racist. I employ all kinds of people for decades, I would employ you, if your little business doesn't work out you come see me, Stevie buddy. Next question, ok? Next question.
posted by sallybrown at 4:28 PM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


That comment about Kim Kardashian may be from 2013, but his track record suggests there is zero chance he won't double down on it if asked or challenged in any way. I wouldn't get my hopes up about it becoming a thing, but I won't be shocked at all if it turns out to have legs, either.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:28 PM on September 28, 2016


It has begun.
Well, I just got a scammy ass phone call from 650 888 2696 claiming to be a Hillary Victory for America fundraiser.... if i gave a donation now now now, there would be a tripling by a "well heeled donor".
I told this less than tripingly eloquent scam artist that I don't do donations over the phone.
I would very much appreciate it if the Clinton campaign made it crystal clear that they won't solicit over the phone. Ugh.


FWIW, I got this call two days ago and it was legitimate (I said I don't give my CC info over the phone, so the campaign sent me an email with the exact amount I said I was willing to donate).
posted by sallybrown at 4:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Arizona Republic receives death threats after endorsing Hillary Clinton
PHOENIX - The Arizona Republic says it has received death threats and countless subscription cancellations over its endorsement of Hillary Clinton -- the first time in the paper's 126 year history it has ever supported a Democrat for president.

"Well it's been crazy around here," said Phil Boas, director of the Arizona Republic's editorial page. "We're getting a lot of reaction both locally and national. I don't believe true readers of the editorial page are surprised by this at all, because over the past year we have been writing scathing, scalding articles about Donald Trump."

"The things he has done," he said, "making fun of disabled people and rolling back press freedoms. You know a guy who would do that and crush our freedoms in one area will do it in others as well."

The article has sparked outrage among readers canceling subscriptions, but Boas said it has also drawn support.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:35 PM on September 28, 2016 [37 favorites]


You sure you didn't just get phished, sallybrown?
posted by Justinian at 4:35 PM on September 28, 2016


The email they sent directed me to Hillary's official website to make the donation, so no. (And I didn't even give out my email over the phone - they had it on record from my last donation.)

But yes - I am not advocating anyone giving out CC info over the phone, regardless.
posted by sallybrown at 4:37 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Matthews just asked Johnson who his favorite foreign leader was, any country any continent. Dude couldn't come up with an answer.
posted by Justinian at 4:39 PM on September 28, 2016 [25 favorites]


"What is foreign leader?"
posted by sallybrown at 4:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]


And some people wonder why third parties aren't catching on.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Weld is clearly the adult, he came up with Merkel right away.
posted by Justinian at 4:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.

When this election began, I was like millions of millennial men: a “Bernie bro” rooting hard for Sen. Sanders.

Watching the candidate of my dreams get steam late and lose in the primary wasn’t so different from watching my favorite football team not have enough energy to complete a fourth quarter rally. Hopeful, exciting, but ultimately deflating and disappointing.

When Hillary Clinton became the presumptive Democratic nominee, I was distraught. Months before I had written about her on Huffington Post, explaining that I despised her not for her gender — as some of her supporters accused — but for her hawkishness, her center-left policies, her husband’s crime bill that incarcerated so many people of color, her support for the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and her inability to get progressive on climate change policy.

I’ve spent almost every waking hour of every day following this election, reading about Hillary, Donald Trump, both parties’ platforms, and the under-qualified Libertarian and Green Party candidates running. During these months of obsessing over my choice, I’ve watched my position slowly shift. I’ve felt myself start advocating for Hillary more than advocating a vote against Trump, culminating in last night’s debate when she finally, totally, completely won me over.


posted by Jalliah at 4:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [33 favorites]


Jim Acosta @Acosta:Trump camp talking points: Machado trying to "gain notoriety at the expense of Mr. Trump’s name and reputation"

There is a whole list of talking points. Some examples:

Mr. Trump has never treated women the way Hillary Clinton and her husband did when they actively worked to destroy Bill Clinton's accusers.

Hillary Clinton bullied and smeared women like Paula Jones, Gennifer Flowers, and Monica Lewinsky.

The Clintons are now trying to bully Mr. Trump and his supporters whom the Clintons have publicly demeaned as "deplorable."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:44 PM on September 28, 2016


Because in Donald Trump's head woman were meant for only one purpose-- to be pleasing to men. They have no other reason to exist.

You give him too much credit. Women are meant to please Donald Trump.
posted by Surely This at 4:44 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Matthews just asked Johnson who his favorite foreign leader was, any country any continent. Dude couldn't come up with an answer.

Considering libertarian idols are usually hardline isolationists, i don't really find that surprising.
posted by lkc at 4:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The email they sent directed me to Hillary's official website to make the donation, so no. (And I didn't even give out my email over the phone - they had it on record from my last donation.)

Or, someone with your phone number and email address directed you to a spoofed website.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:45 PM on September 28, 2016


I don't want to eat vegetables but I can still tell you what a carrot is.
posted by Justinian at 4:46 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Matthews just asked Johnson who his favorite foreign leader was, any country any continent. Dude couldn't come up with an answer.

"And what is a four-n liter?"
posted by zakur at 4:46 PM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


"I thought 4N LEEDR was an acronym"
posted by Justinian at 4:47 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


"What is foreign leader?"

He is going to tell us tomorrow that he was confused because he thought they were asking him what his favorite foreign newspaper is and he doesn't have one.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:47 PM on September 28, 2016


The email they sent directed me to Hillary's official website to make the donation, so no.

Be careful. I've gotten a few phishing attempts that look legit, but if you hover over the email address it expands to something different.

And I didn't even give out my email over the phone - they had it on record from my last donation

Sounds like you're OK, then.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:48 PM on September 28, 2016


The Clintons are now trying to bully Mr. Trump

This right here is the look of a real winner. These people are amazing.
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


When you see polls, remember this: "when asked in a poll, 4% of americans said they'd been decapitated."
posted by zachlipton at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2016 [40 favorites]


The Johnson Weld crowd at this town hall is almost as white as a Paul Ryan Intern Photo. Not quite, but almost. Two of the three visible minorities I've seen in the whole crowd are the two women sitting so that they are front and center between Matthews and Weld/Johnson from the main camera. Is that the campaign setting that up or MSNBC?
posted by Justinian at 4:50 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


It may be that I got the scam cribbing of your call's script, sallybrown, because when I said i had donated on monday, the reply was "oh really?! that's great". No sense that they had any of my donation or volunteer information on a screen in front of them. Finally, when I said that I don't donate over the phone, they simply said, okay, well we will leave it at that and they hung up.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 4:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]




I'm working on the Trump survey.

the correct answer to every question is "Boaty McBoatface"
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Johnson also said he'd cut funding to Planned Parenthood and in response to how he'd fight sexual assaults on campus, answered "Awareness".

Just in case anyone was wondering whether or not Libertarians actually take social issues seriously.
posted by triggerfinger at 4:57 PM on September 28, 2016 [47 favorites]


Hillary Clinton bullied and smeared women like Paula Jones, Gennifer Flowers, and Monica Lewinsky.

I really have no idea how much of this is true. I have been hearing it for years. Thing is I find a hard time caring even if she did say some bad things about them because even though it's not great I get it? I mean I have had people cheat on me, I've had friends and family that have had their spouses cheat and the anger and denial can be huge. And being angry at both your spouse and the other woman and to feel hatred is quite normal. And I've also seen woman who go through a period of denial where 'the other woman is saying lies my partner just wouldn't...' I saw my sister go through that big time and in the end she said she knew in heart but just couldn't deal with it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see this 'well she bullied the other woman!' line as gaining a huge amount of traction with the groups of women that are turned off by Trump sexism. It's different and quite relatable I think to a lot of women in general.
posted by Jalliah at 4:58 PM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]




Ugh. I'm tired of "bombshell stories." We've had--what?--three or four so far and they never live up to the hype.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Unlikely Maddow has any sort of bombshell. She tends to air a lot of stories that don't have any traction.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's probably a new Pepe the Frog meme.
posted by Justinian at 5:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


"when asked in a poll, 4% of americans said they'd been decapitated."
And remember, decapitated-americans have the right to vote (and probably use it more than most)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Isn't the main "Hillary bullied the women who accused Bill" talking point that she shook Juanita Broaddrick's hand at a campaign event and thanked her? The whole thing pivots on Broaddrick's takeaway that she was shaking her hand and thanking her in a hostile manner, or that she felt like for Hillary to do that meant something hostile.
posted by Sara C. at 5:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


>TPM: Eric Trump: 'I’ll Always Remember' My Dad Not Bringing Up Bill Clinton

> "I mean, he very well could’ve looked down—and he said it when he came off the debate stage, ‘I wasn’t gonna respond to that question because I saw Chelsea in the front row and I just wasn’t gonna go there out of respect for her,'" Eric Trump told Iowa radio host Simon Conway, according to a clip highlighted by Buzzfeed News.


"My dad did an amazing job of mentioning this during the debate by saying, 'I don't want to mention this' and then going on about it. Then right after the debate he mentioned it again, again including the words 'I'm not going to mention this' and congratulating himself heartily for not bringing it up at the same exact moment he was bringing it up by claiming that he hadn't brought it up.

"Now, in case anyone was a little slow on the uptake about the specific issue that we are bringing up repeatedly while claiming we aren't, I am going to again claim to be not bringing it up while actually discussing it in detail on the record in the media. In order to explain how awesome my Dad is for not bringing this up, I'm going to need to explain in some detail all of the exact things he didn't bring up, just for clarity's sake. Because we sure as shootin' don't want to mention any of those things that I am mentioning in detail on the record right now.

"Also, we would like to claim full credit for not mentioning this matter. Thank you."

[All too real, unfortunately . . . ]

Above, Codacorolla mentioned that Trump is the 'first fully postmodern president'. It's sort of funny because this "mentioning things by way of pointedly not mentioning them" is just a bit reminiscent of the postmodern technique of "sous rature" or "erasure," whereby you discuss a certain term or concept using a word that is actually crossed out--like this:
Trump is a term that defies conventional explanation and cannot be fully explained by one simple word or brand.
It's sort of a way of discussing something while simultaneously not discussing it. You're saying it and not-saying it simultaneously (or, more precisely, writing and not-writing). Postmodernist writers tend to use it when they are discussing a philosophical idea for which they believe the conventional term and understanding is inadequate--but which is very, very hard to discuss without using the conventional terms. So, "I'm going to go ahead and use this word but I don't really like it."

Like everything else about Trump, his use of it is a very clear perversion of actual postmodernist thought. But still, it is hard not to see this whole "saying by not-saying" as a fulfillment of the "first fully postmodernist president" thing--especially after the whole Trump camp has made a real point of repeatedly saying-by-not-saying the same thing very, very loudly over the past couple of days.

posted by flug at 5:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Unless the bombshell is "Trump capitulates, Clinton to be next President," I'm not going to likely be very impressed.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Mod note: Republicans to Trump: Keep Lewinsky out of it real
Clinton to Trump: Oh please Brer Donald, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch [fake]
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 5:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


Unless the bombshell is "Trump capitulates, Clinton to be next President," I'm not going to likely be very impressed.

I'd be impressed by, 'Bannon and Conway fired. Trumps kids taking over'.
posted by Jalliah at 5:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


Unless the bombshell is "Trump capitulates, Clinton to be next President," I'm not going to likely be very impressed.

I've been pretty unimpressed with Maddow since the primaries. I'm genuinely surprised at that, too, because usually people rant and rave about her political coverage and now it's just kinda meh. Nothing has really drawn me to watch her. Am I missing something there?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Maddow has a scoop and it can wait until tomorrow, it's probably super boring. She likes to overhype a bit. I'm guessing someone found some court records that show Trump did yet another thing that's illegal but illegal in a way no one cares about (e.g. bribing an A.G. or breaking IRS rules) and the Trump campaign is going to say "Yeah that happened but whatever" in a boring statement that no one will cover.
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know, seeing all the things Trump has been saying since the debate about how he's doing so well and other blatantly obvious falsehoods makes me feel that he's so completely out of touch with reality that I'm not convinced that when Hillary wins in a landslide he won't step up to the podium and thank the American people for electing him to POTUS. He has totally lost the plot.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Gloria Steinem and Robin Morgan are up next on Chris Hayes to discuss Miss Universe!
posted by Sophie1 at 5:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


triggerfinger - I remember seeing a satirical suggestion way back in the summer that Trump just be told that he won and whisked to a secure location, somewhat like the Truman Show. The American people could tell him he won the office of Precedent of the United States and is now to occupy the Wight House.
posted by Slothrop at 5:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


You know, seeing all the things Trump has been saying since the debate about how he's doing so well and other blatantly obvious falsehoods makes me feel that he's so completely out of touch with reality that I'm not convinced that when Hillary wins in a landslide he won't step up to the podium and thank the American people for electing him to POTUS. He has totally lost the plot.

He's never lost an election has he? This could be one of the most enjoyable parts of Nov 9th. Watching him deal with losing. Big. in front of the whole world. he becomes a footnote to the First Female President. oh, I will rewatch those moments over and over, let me tell you.
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Gary Johnson chose Sabrina the Teenage Witch to be his Connecticut Chairperson.
posted by sallybrown at 5:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


News you need right now: Bizarre gematria coincidence for Hillary

The article doesn't mention that 255 is the gematria of רנה, which means "joy" or "a cry of exultation".
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Republicans to Trump: Keep Lewinsky out of it

They are all living in the same glass house now, and the last thing Republican men want is for the orange bully to start throwing stones. They wouldn't want their own past/current infidelities back in the news.
posted by chaoticgood at 5:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Isn't the main 'Hillary bullied the women who accused Bill' talking point that she shook Juanita Broaddrick's hand at a campaign event and thanked her?

Yeah, but she squeezed really hard.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:20 PM on September 28, 2016


It's pretty ridiculous that anyone is expected to buy into the notion that Trump's not bringing up Lewinsky makes him some sort of principled mensch. There is no tactical reason for him to do so. It would just make him look like a hypocrite and Hillary like Our Lady of Forgiveness. The only reason I can see for even the Trumps, Jr. commending him for it is relief at the realization that he might actually have some self-control, but even then, it's entirely possible he just never got around to it.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Remembering her first TV role, maybe Clarissa will explain it all to Johnson.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:21 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]




The article doesn't mention that 255 is the gematria of רנה, which means "joy" or "a cry of exultation".

"Whoo! OK!"
posted by infinitywaltz at 5:21 PM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


This could be one of the most enjoyable parts of Nov 9th. Watching him deal with losing.

Unless his "concession" speech is "She stole it! She cheated! This election is a sham! Now ia the moment for every patriotic American to take up arms against this false government!"
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:22 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


And remember, decapitated-americans have the right to vote (and probably use it more than most)

TBF, they may reside in different jurisdictions simultaneously.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:22 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Lawful Good response would be to create and staff a fortress to forever bury the cursed artefact.

Maybe even found a Secret Order to ensure that it will forever be forgotten by the public and to prevent the inadvertent creation of another.


This place is not a place of honor. No highly esteemed deed is commemorated here.
posted by ckape at 5:25 PM on September 28, 2016 [23 favorites]


Unless his "concession" speech is "She stole it! She cheated! This election is a sham! Now ia the moment for every patriotic American to take up arms against this false government!"

Y'know, I really kinda expect all the wind to go out of the Trumpster movement's sails once he loses...because he'll have lost. His whole brand is built on winning and even when he inevitably pulls his version of the Stab In the Back Myth it's hard for me to believe it'll have serious traction. I think it'll be the moment where they have to recognize their emperor has no clothes and they'll walk away.

God I hope I'm right.

(Also, I see that little "ia" you slipped in there. Cultist shout-outs wouldn't shock me at all...)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:29 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here is Johnson's inability to answer an extremely simple and basic question to name a single foreign leader. If you like cringing.
posted by Justinian at 5:33 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


PPP tomorrow in CO, FL, NC, PA and VA. Hold onto your butts.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:33 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm usually not a fan of the old "tell us about your faith" debate question, but I'd kinda like to see Trump twist in the wind with that one for 120 seconds.

And then Clinton could talk about how her faith got her thru rough spots in life, yes, even trouble with her marriage.

Then watch Trump bring up Bill's infidelity.
posted by Gelatin at 5:33 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


The JCPL is braced for big moves tomorrow. I suggest a straddle options play with volatility like this.
posted by Justinian at 5:35 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Here is Johnson's inability to answer an extremely simple and basic question to name a single foreign leader. If you like cringing.

I guess Clarrisa didn't explain it all. Like the name of any other foreign leader. Damnit Clarissa!
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:35 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Republicans have been evoking him, y'know, for years, with their dog whistles on racism, with their war against women, against reproductive rights and everything else. Finally, when Frankenstein's creature rises and moves, then they acted horrified. Oh my god, it's alive! But they have, in fact, invoked it. -Robin Morgan on Chris Hayes.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:36 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]




Y'know, I really kinda expect all the wind to go out of the Trumpster movement's sails once he loses...because he'll have lost.

If he loses (I daren't say when, it's bad luck) I think he will wait 48 hours at least, with sputtering and incoherent squirted statements in the meantime, to acknowledge his loss. He'll never give a proper concession, but I don't think he has the nerve to declare himself rightful president in the clutch, either. He'll say enough to ensure sporadic violence after the results - in fact, he already has - but he probably won't dare more, not out of cool calculation but out of flop-sweat cowardice. In any case, he'll be too legally and financially gangrenous for a 2020 run, even if he's still healthy, which, personally, I doubt.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:39 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


"mentioning things by way of pointedly not mentioning them" is just a bit reminiscent of the postmodern technique of "sous rature" or "erasure,"

But on the other hand, it's also a very, very old technique. The ancient Greeks called it paralepsis, the Romans called it praeteritio, and Cicero used it all the time.
posted by jackbishop at 5:39 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Y'know, I really kinda expect all the wind to go out of the Trumpster movement's sails once he loses...because he'll have lost. His whole brand is built on winning and even when he inevitably pulls his version of the Stab In the Back Myth it's hard for me to believe it'll have serious traction. I think it'll be the moment where they have to recognize their emperor has no clothes and they'll walk away.

Not a chance in hell. These same people have been insisting that Obama is not a legitimate president for seven years. Most of them won't literally try to overthrow the government but they will never, ever concede that Clinton is 'their' president and that Trump wasn't robbed.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:39 PM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


If Maddow has a scoop and it can wait until tomorrow, it's probably super boring.

It'll be Kurt Eichenwald again for Newsweek, whose last story on all the dodgy foreign partners was chewy and nutritious journalism but probably too bland for this campaign, at least, unless it comes up in a debate in a different form.

Talking about sex and infidelity is Ailes/Bannon chum to stop talking about zero taxes and many failed businesses.

Glenn Thrush also had another story of Trump casually ripping off a business. The dam's gonna break on that.
posted by holgate at 5:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Here is Johnson's inability to answer an extremely simple and basic question to name a single foreign leader. If you like cringing.

The best part is the audience smiling and laughing the instant they realize this is going to be another Aleppo, and then Johnson himself realizing it's another Aleppo, and then him announcing out loud that it's another Aleppo.
posted by zachlipton at 5:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Woohoo! Just finishing up my first volunteer shift of phone banking. Talked to a few very enthusiast Hillary supporters, which was heartening. If you live in Pennsylvania and chose to if not a call from an unknown number, I may have missed talking to you (and I wasn't even trying to sell you a time share).

The guy overseeing the volunteers in the upper west side of Manhattan seemed shocked and pleased that I had come from Canada to do this; I guess people from further afield than Poughkeepsie must be unusual here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:43 PM on September 28, 2016 [27 favorites]


You were in Manhattan. Staten Island is like a foreign country.
posted by Justinian at 5:44 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


In Johnson's defense, his edibles were kicking in right around then.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:44 PM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


The night before Newsweek published Kurt Eichenwald’s story about Trump Organization’s foreign business entanglements (which was substantively important, but got relatively little further media attention), Maddow’s lead was a teaser of that story. Today on Twitter, Eichenwald promised another major Trump story in Newsweek tomorrow, so I assume we should set our bombshell-level expectations accordingly.

[On preview, looks like Holgate scooped me.]
posted by nicepersonality at 5:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, Johnson was Governor of New Mexico during Fox's Presidency and would have been involved in cross-border relations in that capacity, while Weld, who impressively knew at least three former Mexican Presidents off the top of his head, was Governor of Massachusetts, and so would not have spent much time thinking about Mexican affairs.
posted by zachlipton at 5:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Weld is absolutely a serious man and a serious politician. Johnson is a likeable oaf.
posted by Justinian at 5:47 PM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]



Also, Johnson was Governor of New Mexico during Fox's Presidency and would have been involved in cross-border relations in that capacity, while Weld, who impressively knew at least three former Mexican Presidents off the top of his head, was Governor of Massachusetts, and so would not have spent much time thinking about Mexican affairs.


Weld actively sought the ambassadorship to Mexico at one point.
posted by ocschwar at 5:47 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's never lost an election has he? This could be one of the most enjoyable parts of Nov 9th. Watching him deal with losing. Big. in front of the whole world.

He's never run in an election. AFAIK, he's never even applied for a job - he's negotiated business deals, and no doubt some of them came back with, "nope, we're not going to do that," but he's never had to do "here's my awesome qualities and the reasons you should hire me instead of the other guy" - all his negotiations are at the level of "here's the awesome things that I can bring your business; it only takes $X up front from you." That's a very different kind of pitch.

I don't think he's ever had a career path that's depended on other people deciding he was the better candidate for the same role as another person. I kinda wonder if he even knows how to write a resume.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]


Weld actively sought the ambassadorship to Mexico at one point.

He was nominated in '97 by Clinton. Jesse Helms blocked confirmation.
posted by chris24 at 5:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Not a chance in hell. These same people have been insisting that Obama is not a legitimate president for seven years. Most of them won't literally try to overthrow the government but they will never, ever concede that Clinton is 'their' president and that Trump wasn't robbed.

They may not believe Obama is legitimate, but they dropped McCain and Romney pretty quick.
posted by ckape at 5:51 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ah he is playing the old favorites in Wisconsin tonight...

@Acosta:
Trump slams Clinton campaign ads: "I long to see an Ivory Snow commercial."

I'm surprised he doesn't like the ads more. After all, he claimed that ALL publicity is good even the bad and besides they mostly star Trump and we know that Trump is his favorite person.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:52 PM on September 28, 2016


Here is yt Johnson's inability to answer an extremely simple and basic question to name a single foreign leader. If you like cringing.

Wow, that was about 5 times more cringeworthy than I thought. How did he ever win a race for Governor? I cannot imagine a universe in which I don't like...memorize every country and its major cities and as many leaders as I possibly can before I run for President. Johnson and Trump are out here not knowing the nuclear triad and Aleppo, meanwhile Clinton has 30 years of detailed policy and facts ready to go. Even Dr. Stein is putting in the work trying to master appealing to anti-vaxxers, kooks, and Harambe lovers.
posted by sallybrown at 5:56 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]






I long to see an Ivory Snow commercial.

Well not a commercial, but definitely a film starring their last spokeslady.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:57 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump slams Clinton campaign ads: 'I long to see an Ivory Snow commercial.'

99 44⁄100% Pure white.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:58 PM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


AFAIK, he's never even applied for a job

I think this is the best angle on the "that's just smart" anti-tax paying comment. It's not interesting because everyone in America loves paying taxes. It's interesting because the vast majority of Americans pay taxes whether we want to or not, via the payroll department at our jobs. Trump's claim that it's smart that he doesn't pay taxes makes him out of touch, not immoral. He has no idea the constraints that almost all of his potential constituents live under.
posted by Sara C. at 5:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump right now at rally in Waukesha, WI: "I'm not running for President of the World. I am running for President of the United States."

Which in Trump-speak means he totally wants to be President of the World.
posted by mochapickle at 5:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh this is new...

@ZekeJMiller: Some in overwhelmingly white crowd now finishing Trump’s sentence at “what the hell do you have to lose”
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maddow's bombshell has something to do with Eichenwald's piece because she's talking about it right now. I'm sure this is going to swa... zzzzzz
posted by Justinian at 6:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I long to see an Ivory Snow commercial.

Didn't he talk about ivory snow commercials before?

Is this some sort of dogwhistle?
posted by Jalliah at 6:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maddow's story is another who cares.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:03 PM on September 28, 2016


Ok, it's about Trump doing business in Cuba in violation of the embargo.

I would say that very, very few people give a shit. However the few people who do give a shit live in Florida and that could matter.
posted by Justinian at 6:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


Newsweek is going to report that Trump's company violated the US embargo against Cuba. Literally, nobody cares.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Trump Google search conspiracy thing traces back this Brietbart story...which first appeared on Sputnik News.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


""You are not supposed to gain 60 pounds the year you are Miss Universe," @newtgingrich says at @LogCabinGOP dinner"

The best surrogates. They really are going to make this another Khan situation.
posted by chris24 at 6:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


I actually kind of give a shit about the Cuba story. For some reason that comes through more clearly to me as illegal than all the underhanded complicated dealings in Eastern Europe.

It's a brightline violation of a very famous law.
posted by sallybrown at 6:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


which first appeared on Sputnik News.

So he's quoting Kremlin propaganda?
posted by chris24 at 6:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


In Wisconsin, Donald Trump shared this new unsubstantiated conspiracy theory: Google has suppressed bad news about Hillary Clinton.

If only there was a person who could summon vast amounts of media coverage for literally whatever he happened to want to talk about. Like, if he was opening a new hotel, he could get every cable news network to do a live 20-minute feature on how great his new hotel is. Or if he doesn't like a fire marshal or a man with a copy of the Constitution in his pocket or that man's wife, he could effortlessness turn those things into national stories. This guy could even have representatives of the international media following him around as closely as he'll allow, ready to take down and transmit his every word. And if that person said something negative about Hillary Clinton, it would command even more attention.

Now, if a guy like that existed, surely he could just effortlessly get the alleged "bad news" out into the world's press even if Sundar Pichai was personally manipulating search results against him?
posted by zachlipton at 6:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


“We won’t tell you what to do with the photo, but when we ran a picture of Hillary on the front of our newsletter, we heard it was very popular at the range.”

Not too long ago, the streets of Jerusalem were plastered with pictures of a Kaffiyeh-wearing Yitzchak Rabin in gunsights. Forgive me if I don't find this attempt at humor the least bit funny.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [59 favorites]


Trump was on FOX today and Zeke Miller recapped that as well. Ladies and Gentlemen, your Republican Nomine for President of the United States.

@ZekeJMiller:
Trump now spreading reports on Machado's alleged past on Fox

Trump says on Fox he didn't say he doesn't pay taxes, but that people think it's smart if be doesn't. And that's thinking the country needs

Trump on Fox says he wasn't thinking about it when he first complimented Holt and now he thinks he was being treated unfairly

Trump: "I turned out to be right" on birther issue. Not quite

He turned out to be "right" on the birther issue. Too bad he was on FOX because a real journalist might have tried to find out in what way he thought he was right.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:08 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


So he's quoting Kremlin propaganda?

Open question whether Bannon got it first from their Kremlin contact.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


The best surrogates. They really are going to make this another Khan situation.

Yes and his comment surrogates appearing to be going with "He was HELPing her not get fired. This is not an attack on her. He was doing her a favor. All he is doing now is explaining what happened you liars......oh also and she was a porn star"

They are really and truly clueless about the reality outside of their Trump world bubble.
posted by Jalliah at 6:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


I am glad someone is still doing real journalism. Props to Eichenwald for this and his last story. But to think that it's going to move the race and is a BOMBSHELL shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what is driving Trump's candidacy.

Also Eichenwald's name makes me think of Overwatch so he has that going for him.
posted by Justinian at 6:11 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


It’s a bright line violation of a very famous law.

Yeah! It’s very weird to see people downplay illegal international trade in the same thread that other people are arguing that Trump should be ostracized for (possibly legally) paying zero in taxes by using loopholes.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:11 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Republicans have been evoking him, y'know, for years, with their dog whistles on racism, with their war against women, against reproductive rights and everything else. Finally, when Frankenstein's creature rises and moves, then they acted horrified. Oh my god, it's alive! But they have, in fact, invoked it. -Robin Morgan on Chris Hayes.

Very true, but there is something that's different now. It's very strange to defend the man, but George W Bush was a vocal and frequent defender of Muslims and Islam. I am sure that his stance derived from the conventional wisdom of foreign intelligence that strongly advises against demonizing Islam or its adherents, otherwise it just attracts more radicalization and begets terrorism. But he did not hesitate in his defense whenever the subject arose, and I think it speaks highly of a man who was in so many ways one of our worst modern presidents. He also at least attempted to speak Spanish – yes, to attract the Latinx vote, but better than running a campaign on building a wall on the Mexican border. He also has a self-deprecating sense of humor, and didn't seem to harbor a visceral hatred of women. I mean, he wasn't a good leader by any stretch, but he has a shred of humanity within his soul, at least. Not a complete narcissist. At least.

Good lord, I'm nostalgic for George W Bush. It took a true white nationalist campaign run by an aspiring dictator to bring it out of me.

I guess what I'm saying is, yes, the Republicans created Frankenstein's monster, but I find myself feeling wistful remembering the shred of humanity that once existed there. Even if it were only a fig leaf.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:12 PM on September 28, 2016 [59 favorites]


I'm not downplaying the seriousness of the charge, I'm downplaying the impact it will have on the election. Which is to say; none-to-extremely-marginal.
posted by Justinian at 6:13 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Newsweek is going to report that Trump's company violated the US embargo against Cuba. Literally, nobody cares.

I think some people in Florida care. Florida, with the largest Cuban-American population of any state and its 29 electoral votes.
posted by bluecore at 6:14 PM on September 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


Honestly the Cuba thing would be a big deal for virtually any other candidate.

But with Trump we have him running a massive scam as a university, we have double-dealing with his foundation, we have him stiffing contractors, we have him bragging he doesn't pay taxes.

On the hierarchy of political sins doing business with Cuba is unlikely to cause Republicans to abandon him at this point.
posted by vuron at 6:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]



"You are not supposed to gain 60 pounds the year you are Miss Universe," @newtgingrich says at @LogCabinGOP dinner

Oh Christ. So now we are going to have the entire Trump army talking about her weight gain. That is sure to help with her eating disorder. And you notice how the weight keeps going up? 40, 50, 60lbs. By the time Eric brings it up it will be "almost 100."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


@HillaryClinton: "At Monday's debate, Trump denied saying a lot of the things he's said. Let's set the record straight." (video ad)

Tag line: Sorry Donald, the tape doesn't lie, even if you do.
posted by chris24 at 6:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]




I think both the Cuba thing and the tax thing are equally likely to have an impact on the election, inasmuch as they can be successfully used as wedge issues to remind specific conservative-leaning constituencies that they are supposed to hate people like Trump.

The question is whether these constituencies love bigotry more than they hate people like Trump.
posted by Sara C. at 6:17 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]



So at least for now he's going with "Sure I don't pay taxes. It makes me smart!" double down.

I get that this may be done completely legally but I can't see how it's going to work to get more people to vote for him. Even the people who do the very same thing are more likely to be *facepalm* "Good lord man you don't go around bragging and advertising it..."
posted by Jalliah at 6:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


And Trump had an event with Hispanic business leaders in Little Havana yesterday, i.e. those he hasn't yet stiffed.
posted by holgate at 6:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sara, all evidence is they love bigotry more than literally anything else. Including their own integrity.
posted by Justinian at 6:21 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


A billboard went up near O'Hare yesterday. No spoilers, it's more fun to work out who put it up.
posted by holgate at 6:22 PM on September 28, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yep, going full Khan. Trump on Machado to O'Reilly tonight:

@SopanDeb: "!!! Trump: "And it is a beauty contest. You know, say what you want, Bill. They know what they’re getting into. It’s a beauty contest.""

Full transcript of his new attack attached to tweet.
posted by chris24 at 6:23 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]



Trump "I do my taxes all perfectly legally and don't pay a damn thing. I'm smart."

People: "erm, um *grumble* Hey wait totally not cool maybe it's time to look that the law that make the possible" " We should add this topic to the national political conversation"

Trump: "Wait what, that's not what I want to happen."
Other No Tax Paying people "glurg, argh Trump you moran"

People: Oh and fuck you.
posted by Jalliah at 6:23 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm pretty sure most Republicans are pretty firmly in the pro-bigotry camp now.

Plus you know IOKIYAR on any sort of financial indiscretion.

Plus avoiding taxes is probably good because then that money doesn't go to "those people"
posted by vuron at 6:24 PM on September 28, 2016


The Trump Google search conspiracy thing traces back this Brietbart story...which first appeared on Sputnik News.

Oh it gets worse, the Sputnik News story comes from noted blowhard Robert Epstein, who's become famous for accusing Google of bias in various ways and has been beating the "Google could rig elections" drum for years now.

Wikipedia has a decent summary of one of Epstein's greatest hits:
In 2012, Epstein publicly disputed with Google Search over a security warning placed on links to his website. His website, which features mental health screening tests, was blocked for serving malware that could infect visitors to the site. Epstein emailed "Larry Page, Google's chief executive; David Drummond, Google’s legal counsel; Epstein's congressman; and journalists from The New York Times, The Washington Post, Wired, and Newsweek." In it, Epstein threatened legal action if the warning concerning his website was not removed, and denied that any problems with his website existed. Several weeks later, Epstein admitted his website had been hacked, but still criticized Google for tarnishing his name and not helping him find the infection.
In other words, this guy's website got infected with malware, Google placed its standard warning on the page, he complained to everyone including his congressman that Google was horrible and out to ruin him, and then it turned out that there was actually malware on his website. A bunch of New York Times commenters helped him fix his site after he raised such a fuss.

He also tried to test his theories with an Indian election in 2014, recruiting 2,000 undecided voters and giving them intentionally rigged search results in an attempt to test whether he could sway them. In other words, he attempted to manipulate an Indian election to demonstrate that someone can manipulate an election, claiming that the study was small and biases for each candidate would cancel themselves out. I remember some ethical concerns being raised at the time.

This stuff is important and interesting to think about, but Epstein's approach always seems to involve alleging vast conspiracies and a great deal of self-aggrandizing media attention. In this case, he's apparently conducted a rigorous inquiry into things like whether Google won't autocomplete "crooked" into "crooked Hillary" when Bing and Yahoo do so and dressed that up with alarmist headlines about rigging elections.
posted by zachlipton at 6:25 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


The gematria (Hebrew numeric value) of "Hillary" (הילרי) is 255.

The gematria of "Rodham"(רודהם) is also 255.

The gematria of "Clinton" (קלינטון) is also 255.


OH MY GOD SHE'S A SUBNET MASK!!!
posted by bongo_x at 6:27 PM on September 28, 2016 [111 favorites]


Trump is so goddamned stupid. He spent weeks playacting like he cared about people of color, clawing his way up point by point with suburban white woman...every single time he mentions Machado's weight, he's going to shed thousands of those potential votes.
posted by sallybrown at 6:27 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wait what? People still use Bing and Yahoo for search?
posted by vuron at 6:28 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


And you notice how the weight keeps going up? 40, 50, 60lbs. By the time Eric brings it up it will be "almost 100."

Over 9000, surely.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:28 PM on September 28, 2016


I would like to ask the candidates how many hundred dead Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan women, children and non-combatants is an acceptable level of collateral damage? How many do they think will be OK to kill to make the American public feel safer?

(The screeners would never permit this question.)
posted by bukvich at 6:28 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


@BenjySarlin: "A top voter concern is if Trump can manage sensitive diplomacy, not spark a war out of pride. Now he's escalating a war with Miss Universe."

Yep, beyond insulting women and Latinx, he's confirming the worst fear about him.
posted by chris24 at 6:31 PM on September 28, 2016 [34 favorites]


Trump was on FOX today and Zeke Miller recapped that as well. Ladies and Gentlemen, your Republican Nomine for President of the United States.

It's exactly like his response after the Democratic convention. He's trying to attack Machado, as he went after Khan. This is a huge mistake on his part, but it's entirely predictable. I don't think he's listening to Conway at all right now. He can't help himself.

And he's so in the weeds on a bunch of other stuff that came up during the debate, just hacking away. Baited with a tweet, indeed.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


The Cuban embargo story probably won't have much of an impact on the Cuban-American voters who are in the anti-Castro / pro-embargo camp. My impression is that voters are still angry at the Clinton's over Elián González.
posted by humanfont at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


My impression is that voters are still angry at the Clinton's over Elián González.

Plus a Democratic administration tied to Hillary giving them the middle finger by normalizing relations with the Castros.
posted by Talez at 6:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald Trump vs. Ms. Universe would be delightful comedy if you didn't know full well she's getting death and rape threats sent her way right now.
posted by argybarg at 6:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [35 favorites]


Not to be all "my Cuban friend" but uh, my Cuban friend has told me that while a lot of the first-gen Cuban refugees atill very much feel that way, their kids and grandkids (of which he is one) really don't seem to care all that much, compared to other more pressing issues.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:42 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]



Headline: Trump Goes Bigly, Now at War with Universe
posted by Jalliah at 6:43 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yeah, my sense it that Cuban-Americans are not at all universally hard-line on normalizing relations with Cuba, and there's a pretty significant generation gap. And you could see how someone might be a little peeved if the embargo prevented them from meeting their grandmother before she died, but some asshole thought it was ok to violate it to make a quick buck.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:45 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


No. He says the honor code at his school was that you were never to lie or be dishonest, even after you left the school.

Well, hell, if I'd known that oaths had THIS long a tenure, I'd have taken the Brownie Scout Oath and the 4-H pledge way more seriously.

MSNBC is showing a graphic showing Gary Johnson in first place in New Hampshire among Millenials. First place. Ugggghhgh.

Fret not! New Hampshire has a larger-than-usual concentration of libertarians because they are consciously trying to turn New Hampshire into Libertarian Central.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:52 PM on September 28, 2016 [11 favorites]


Remember how back a billion posts ago I posted something about Trump supporters just wanting to piss off liberals?

Here's Exhibit A for you all.
posted by Talez at 6:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]


>>"mentioning things by way of pointedly not mentioning them" is just a bit reminiscent of the postmodern technique of "sous rature" or "erasure,"

>But on the other hand, it's also a very, very old technique. The ancient Greeks called it paralepsis, the Romans called it praeteritio, and Cicero used it all the time.


Hmm, Trump's Eraser (=the things Trump says by not-saying them--so erasing with Trump's Eraser makes things appear instead of disappear) could be another piece of the infamous Trump Shaving Kit.

It does seem to be something he does quite a bit--e.g., with the 2nd Amendment thing, and a lot of his racist, misogynist, and xenophobic comments--and it also strikes me as significantly different from the sort of "dogwhistle" thing that many politicians do, maybe just in the very blunt way he typically uses it. Dogwhistling usually requires quite a bit of finesse, and involves mentioning ideas and key terms that sound innocuous to the untrained listener but mean very specific things to the "in group."

Whereas Trump's Eraser is more going right up to the edge of saying it so that everyone knows exactly what you're going to say, but then letting it dangle provocatively instead of actually saying it.

And then loudly taking credit for what a good boy you are for not actually saying it. It's all the harder to hold back when it's right on the tip of your--and your entire audience's--tongue, you know . . .
posted by flug at 6:54 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here's Exhibit A for you all.

Ha ha, those libruls are gonna be so mad when we vote for ethnic cleansing.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


bookmark and reminder that she still needs a pliant Congress
posted by infinitewindow at 6:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Talez, that's completely believable as a subconscious motivation for thousands of mostly white young men, but it seems too good to be sincere as a post - it's a bit of a villain monologue.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


These scandals where Trump breaks the rules of the Big Bad Gubmint aren't going to make an impact on his supporters. They're all Murrican Cowboy Rebels too who think people who enforce the Rules are boring scolds unless it involves reacting with excessive force to minor infractions by minorities. What will actually get the attention of his supporters:

1. Use of immigrant labor
2. If he stiffs a business run by a veteran
3. Disparaging a veteran
4. If Melania or Ivanka ever had an abortion
5. If any of those kids weren't his bios
6. If he admitted his real feelings about the economy's "losers" (i.e. white males with high school education or less who work blue-collar jobs)
7. If he said a bad word about Saint Reagan
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's already done at least 1 and 3.
posted by drezdn at 7:04 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


1. Use of immigrant labor

He got in a fight with Rubio in a debate about his use of immigrants at Mar-a-Lago.

3. Disparaging a veteran

"I like people who weren't captured."
posted by chris24 at 7:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


These scandals where Trump breaks the rules of the Big Bad Gubmint aren't going to make an impact on his supporters.
I don't think anything is going to have an impact on his supporters. I think the people who are in play are the people who are currently saying that they're going to vote for Gary Johnson, who could eventually fall in line for Trump, and the people who are considering whether to hold their nose and vote for him or wether to stay home. And I do think that the various scandals could have an impact on them, although this one is clearly only going to get any traction in Florida, if it gets any at all.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump talking points on the Foundation. This man is so petty - on Fahrenthold: "What a waste of 6 months of his life and career."
posted by sallybrown at 7:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


They wouldn't care about any of those things. They'd find a way to fuck-yeah them all.
posted by argybarg at 7:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, yeah, I forgot about McCain. The Dems need to be splashing that all over the place.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:07 PM on September 28, 2016


This man is so petty

And so narked by it. Big tell, though it's gone through the Deplorable Campaign Team filter.
posted by holgate at 7:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's supporters don't care about McCain either. That just shows Trump being a "politically incorrect" bully. They get off on this.
posted by argybarg at 7:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Remember how back a billion posts ago I posted something about Trump supporters just wanting to piss off liberals?

Here's Exhibit A for you all.


That this type of sociopathic person is out that and that people them support Trump is not a surprise. Of course their are people who are motivated this way. They have always existed. It's just that now the internet allows them to come together more easily.

These types completely overestimate how many others out there are like the. I'm sure this bloke has his special little online community where they all gather and feed off the lulz and as a group wield their internet power. They've done it before with things like gamergate.

And yeah it utterly annoying to read this types thought process but with sociopaths you just gotta breath and let it go because he's right, their is nothing that can be done to change their mind. Nothing. When a brain is wired to not do empathy (for whatever reason) it's not going to give a shit about anything that doesn't directly impact their lives.
posted by Jalliah at 7:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


So what you're saying is that the other people who support Trump are actually racists and misogynists rather than sociopathic trolls.
posted by Justinian at 7:11 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, he could always have explosive diarrhea on stage during the next debate. Catering? Are you reading this?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:12 PM on September 28, 2016


OK, let's see here...

1. Use of immigrant labor
2. If he stiffs a business run by a veteran - not that I can find, but he has cheated veteran charities
3. Disparaging a veteran - see the link above, and of course his comments about McCain
4. If Melania or Ivanka ever had an abortion - its possible somebody he slept with did and his position has changed on this.
5. If any of those kids weren't his bios - no evidence of this, but I suspect this would just generate sympathy for him
6. If he admitted his real feelings about the economy's "losers" (i.e. white males with high school education or less who work blue-collar jobs) - I can't find evidence he's specifically done this.
7. If he said a bad word about Saint Reagan - Well...
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:12 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Remember how back a billion posts ago I posted something about Trump supporters just wanting to piss off liberals?

Yes, that's the shitposter/MRA/GamerGate/Trumpian ethos, more or less. They want payback, plain and simple. There aren't nearly enough of them to win an election, however.

Not all Trump supporters think this way, to be clear. I encountered one just yesterday who was unaware that Trump had ever cheated on his wives, mostly because she was in her 20s and hadn't lived through the time when he was going through it. She seemed genuinely shocked when I recounted his anti-family values lifestyle, even appearing on the cover of Playboy, in sharp contrast to the GWB "character counts" campaign, a backhand at Bill Clinton. She had never heard about any of it. And hearing about it for the first time definitely affected her, from just a short conversation with a stranger on Twitter. I'm still not sure how this squares up with my previous advice not to argue about politics online, except she kept asking more questions, and it was a clear opportunity to educate...
posted by krinklyfig at 7:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


Rep. Steve Chabot (R-OH) suggested to FBI Director James Comey that Hillary Clinton had broken her college’s honor code by using a private email server.

OMG Chabot is a huge asshole. He has peddled suggestive homophobic innuendo in the past against one of Cincinnati's great female politicians, and growing up his commercials routinely featured only white folks. He routinely crows about family values and turns around and authorizes cuts to WIC and food stamps. He was instrumental in passing the so-called partial birth abortion ban. One time he was in front of me at the public library growing up - the staff informed him about his fines and were nice about it, and then brought down the hammer on me (I was probably a young teenager at the time).

I really cannot stand this dude, and this is exactly the kind of foolishness I am utterly unsurprised to hear from him.
posted by mostly vowels at 7:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


He has to at some point have talked shit about someone who works in construction vis-a-vis their being not an awesome rich Winner like him.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Talez, that's completely believable as a subconscious motivation for thousands of mostly white young men, but it seems too good to be sincere as a post - it's a bit of a villain monologue.

Oh they exist. I've had to deal with someone that would totally write something like this. Without getting into to much detail the only way to deal with him was to make it so we didn't have too. No empathy whatsoever. He didn't give a shit about anyone except as fodder for his potential lulz. Couple that with being in a situation where he didn't need anything from us so he'd have to fake give a care and you get fun times.
He pretty much destroyed any notion that all people have some good in them if you just use the right approach to find it.
posted by Jalliah at 7:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fret not! New Hampshire has a larger-than-usual concentration of libertarians because they are consciously trying to turn New Hampshire into Libertarian Central.

No...it's worth fretting. The Free State movement you're talking about hasn't made a big dent, with just under 2000 people actually moving into the state as of this year. That's not even 1% of the state involved in that project. That means that most of the Johnson support is free-range, not associated with that movement in particular. NH does have a high population of white men (93.9% of the state is white) and most of them are youngish - between 25 and 59 - which is kinda Trump's sweet spot.
posted by Miko at 7:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Talez, that's completely believable as a subconscious motivation for thousands of mostly white young men, but it seems too good to be sincere as a post - it's a bit of a villain monologue.

I'm not sure that's entirely right, they're very sincere about 'the lulz', Brietbart has appropriated the entire Gamergate troll 'culture' and pointed them at Trump, in the process further radicalizing millions of white working class men who might or might not be in on the 'joke'. It's hard to see where the trolling ends and the neo-Nazism begins, or if it even matters when the ideas feed on themselves and make it into the mouth of the candidate himself, who sure as fuck doesn't think anyone is being anything but completely sincere in their hatred.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


The thing is, he's done a good chunk of those things already and his supporters love him just the same:

1. Use of immigrant labor
2. If he stiffs a business run by a veteran
3. Disparaging a veteran
4. If Melania or Ivanka ever had an abortion
5. If any of those kids weren't his bios
6. If he admitted his real feelings about the economy's "losers" (i.e. white males with high school education or less who work blue-collar jobs)
7. If he said a bad word about Saint Reagan


1. What Donald Trump Knew About Undocumented Workers at His Signature Tower, Donald Trump Hired Illegal Workers As Models, Donald Trump Turned Down Hundreds of American Workers and Hired Immigrants Instead

2-3. Veterans call on Trump to show respect. He failed to donate money he raised for veterans charities until called out on it by the press months later. See also what he said about McCain and the insinuation that Humayun Khan was a secret terrorist.

4. Abortion is legal and someone else's choice, nor is this really our business (nor do we know). There was this story: Donald Trump doesn’t deny helping a wife or girlfriend get an abortion.

5. Not touching this one.

6. There's "Every time I speak of the haters and losers I do so with great love and affection. They cannot help the fact that they were born fucked up!" That's more broadly about people who don't like him though.

7. When Donald Trump Hated Ronald Reagan, Donald Trump: Reagan Was A Con Man Who Couldn’t ‘Deliver The Goods`
posted by zachlipton at 7:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Let me clarify that I don't think abortions or paternity are real political issues like this, but I do believe his supporters would see them as such.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:21 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, there was a better one for #6 last week:
During a rally at a civic center here Wednesday evening, Trump, after talking about people "making less real wages" compared with 18 years ago and having to work harder, bragged about how hard he has been working on the trail.

“Me? I'm working harder also, so I don't feel sorry for any of you," he quipped.

He continued: "Oh, you think this is so easy? In this beautiful room that's 122 degrees. It is hot, and it's always hot when I perform because the crowds are so big,” Trump said. “These rooms were not designed for this kind of a crowd.”

The packed audience broke into a chant of “Trump! Trump!”
One interesting detail there is that he described what he does as "perform[ing]," which is accurate, but I think if Clinton described her campaign in those terms, there'd be a massive howl of "see, it's all just an act; she's really a terrible person but she puts on a show for the stupid liberals who think it's real."
posted by zachlipton at 7:23 PM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


So what you're saying is that the other people who support Trump are actually racists and misogynists rather than sociopathic trolls.

Yes. I'm doing a course on negotiation right now and this would be an example of a group of people with 'joint goals' attempting a winner takes all negotiation with the country.

I came so close to the 'joint' goals of Trump supporters as an example for an assignment. It's been a bit trippy taking this course at the same time as this election with Trump 'Art of the Deal' guy running.
posted by Jalliah at 7:23 PM on September 28, 2016


Jim Acosta has obtained the Trump campaign talking points on taxes and charity (and stop and frisk), including:
"Farenthold is grasping for straws, even as he admits he cannot find anything that was improper. What a waste of 6 months of his life and career."
posted by zachlipton at 7:26 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's Mirror.

Worst. Magic. Item. Ever:

Wonderous item, rare

A gold-adorned, gilt framed highly polished mirror.
Curse. The item is cursed, and all the a user sees when looking into the mirror is the large head of an orange human with strange hair, known as the Trump. The image will speak whether or not it is spoken to, but little sense can be made of what it is saying, and it usually just makes insulting and belittling comments towards the user, especially if that person is a woman.


Effect on user: A character of moderate intelligence will soon see that the cursed insults and comments that emanate from Trump's Mirror are, indeed, always a mirror of The Trump's own craven personality. Despite the most insulting wording and insinuation, the cursed words are no reflection on the interrogator's own character or actions, but always reflect back to the demonic Trump within.

But the unfortunate character who comes to this insight then fails victim to an even more subtle trap of the cursed Mirror. All who reach this understanding are cursed to spend hours, days, weeks, and months months on end staring blindly into the depths of the mirror and asking why, Why, WHY in a vain attempt to understand Trump's Mirror and its subtle attraction. Many, in thrall to the curse, spend hour upon end composing imaginary arguments and explanations--but none are satisfactory. The Curse of Trump's Mirror ensures that this is so.

After many weeks and months in the thrall of Trump's Mirror, only the most highly skilled and experienced Mage, one who has attained the with the highest levels of strength, wisdom, perception, and willpower, will be able to break gaze from Trump's Mirror, casting it to the ground to again become the worthless item it once was.
posted by flug at 7:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


So, yes, reddit is the worst, etc, but I found this comment very, very interesting. Entire thing except sources reproduced here so you don't have to click through:

Oh! I have one! No one has mentioned it at all that I've noticed during the race- maybe because it's so ridiculously moustache twirlingly awful that it barely seems real- but everyone I knew growing up in NYC thought of Trump as a fucking slumlord because of how he acted upon the acquisition of 100 Central Park South.

So he bought this building in 1981 with the intention of tearing it down and building a luxury condo tower. Just one problem- the building was filled with rent stabilized tenants.

In 1982 IN THE MIDDLE OF JANUARY he sent tenants, many of whom were older to elderly, immediate eviction notices- out in one week or their stuff was getting thrown out into the street. These were tenants in good standing who hadn't broken their leases. One woman was charged that the building wasn't her primary residence so she was being tossed out even though the only other residence she had ever had had burned down years before. She refused to leave so her water and gas was shut off. He then filed fake non-payment charges against another, which were thrown out when they were able produce documentation of Trump's management company canceling his rent checks.

So after that failed he filled the halls with garbage that attracted rats and roaches, which he then refused to have exterminated and told tenants they and their guests had to use the trash elevators to get into the building, including patients in a dentists office. He told the super to make absolutely no repairs. By the end it got so bad that tenants were able to provide pictures to the court of mushrooms growing out of the carpet in hallways.

He then told the city and tenants that he was going to house de-institutionalized homeless in all the empty units in the building, which the city refused, on grounds of danger to tenants and his intention to tear the building down. He tried to do it anyway- in typical Trump fashion he said it was because he cared so much about the plight of the homeless.

Suzanne Blackmer one of the tenants said in 1987:

“He has such an ego, he wants to be Jesus. He wants to be Hitler. He wants to be the most powerful thing in the world.”


When nothing would budge them Trump tried to sue the hold outs for extortion and his suit was dismissed with prejudice. They counter sued for harassment. The case was finally settled in 1998, when an appellate court ruled that Trump could turn the vacant apartments into condos and sell them, but the 51 remaining rent-regulated tenants could stay.
Edit:

And just because it's a fun, unrelated little tidbit I stumbled across when fact checking this with sources from the 80's here's a quote from the NYT March 9, 1985:

A recent profile in The Washington Post quoted him as saying he was ready to take on new, world-sized tasks - referring to his heretofore unrevealed wish to become the nation's negotiator on arms limitation with the Soviet Union. He says he's a master negotiator, and could do a better job on arms talks than ''the kind of representatives that I have seen in the past.'' Becoming an expert on nuclear weaponry would be easy, he said. ''It would take an hour and a half to learn everything there is to learn about missiles,'' he explained. ''I think I know most of it anyway. You're talking about just getting updated on a situation.'' Maybe Mr. Trump should take the afternoon off to study up on missiles and leave the tenants of 100 Central Park South alone.

Found here.
posted by fomhar at 7:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [91 favorites]


More encouraging anecdata – one of my Facebook friends (a snake person, and former Bernie Sis) just posted this article: "I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back" (along with a number of other "obviously I'm voting for Clinton" sentiments).

I also noticed a flood of election-related stuff on Facebook after the debate – it seems like a lot of people just weren't paying much attention until now. Between the next two debates, and all the other media coverage in the next few weeks, these chimerical "undecideds" will have plenty of opportunity to compare and contrast the two candidates. (And if their performances in the first debate are indicative – which I think they will be – I think they'll come around quickly.)

I won't fully unclench my sphincter until November 9 (well, probably a couple of months after that – there's a lot of pent-up clenching to release), but my gut tells me that the first debate was an inflection point.

Home stretch. FSM bless all you people out there volunteering (my excuse is that I'm busy with a new job and have crippling social phobia) – I owe you all a drink.

40 days left. That's five weeks and change. Holy shit.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


Here's Exhibit A for you all.

well tbh, we all just love the way you screw your little faces into a death rictus and wail "BEN GAAAAAAZZI" when we mention what a great president HRC is going to be.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


That reddit thread continues to deliver:

1st amendment

"One of the things I'm going to do if I win, and I hope we do and we're certainly leading. I'm going to open up our libel laws so when they write purposely negative and horrible and false articles, we can sue them and win lots of money. We're going to open up those libel laws. So when The New York Times writes a hit piece which is a total disgrace or when The Washington Post, which is there for other reasons, writes a hit piece, we can sue them and win money instead of having no chance of winning because they're totally protected,"

2nd amendment

You know, [the police are] proactive and if they see a person possibly with a gun or they think may have a gun, they will see the person and they’ll look and they’ll take the gun away,”

3rd Amendment

4th Amendment

"One of the things I'd do ... is I would do stop-and-frisk. I think you have to. We did it in New York, it worked incredibly well and you have to be proactive and, you know, you really help people sort of change their mind automatically,"

5th amendment

6th amendment:

Regarding home grown terrorists: "Well, I know that they want to try them in our regular court systems, and I don't like that at all. I don't like that at all," he told the Herald. "I would say they could be tried (in military commissions), that would be fine."

7th amendment

8th amendment

"Waterboarding and a lot worse"

posted by fomhar at 7:48 PM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]


Quick Google news search shows both NYT and Mother Jones running recent-ish stories about his acquisition of 100 Central Park South and how he tried to force tenants out. So, it's been reported recently, but no one cares, as usual. Just another day at the deplorable factory.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:50 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


I, for one, am pleased that Trump has stated no plans to compromise the 3rd Amendment.
posted by zachlipton at 7:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


3rd Amendment

Trump, on realizing that he has no policy regarding the third amendment, immediately announced "We pay so much to house soldiers off base. Why don't we find people with empty houses and spare rooms and make them give the soldiers a room?" [fake]
posted by Talez at 7:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


4th Amendment

"One of the things I'd do ... is I would do stop-and-frisk. I think you have to..."


I'd put his stop and frisk comments under the 10th amendment. The president doesn't set policy for local law enforcement agencies, it's a power reserved for the states.
posted by peeedro at 7:54 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


*Begins to write up phony Trump quote at odds with the 3rd Amendment, sees two other comments making the same point, goes back to watching baseball.*
posted by tonycpsu at 7:55 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd put his stop and frisk comments under the 10th amendment. The president doesn't set policy for local law enforcement agencies, it's a power reserved for the states.

That's been dead for decades. "Do this or lose 10% funding from [insert tangentially related funding the state desperately needs here]".
posted by Talez at 7:55 PM on September 28, 2016


A better 4th amendment example is his comments on iPhones and encryption: "Who do they think they are? They have to open it up."
posted by peeedro at 7:57 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Here is Johnson's inability to answer an extremely simple and basic question to name a single foreign leader. If you like cringing.

I've been trying to rack my brain about who is a libertarian foreign leader who isn't a complete fucking douchebag.

I'm having an Aleppo moment on that.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


I believe only one case in 50 or 60 years has been struck down on 10th amendment grounds. It's deader than abe vigoda.
posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on September 28, 2016


it seems like a lot of people just weren't paying much attention until now

This is pretty typical of election years. This one has been weird because the news media circus dragged the primaries on forever, and then FUCKING TRUMP OMGZ, but in general, the mushy middle of apolitical types have mostly not been paying attention until now.

This includes the folks who were kneejerk for Bernie because the t-shirts seemed cool and he talked to a bird once. They haven't actually paid attention since sometime in June. Now they're waking up, and I'm curious whether all this "Hillary can't hold Millennials" stuff will crumble into nothing with post-debate polls.
posted by Sara C. at 8:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]


Doesn't matter if the leader is a libertarian. You say something like "although I disagree with him on many principles of government, Justin Trudeau was a fuckin' rad snowboarder" or whatever which would appeal to Johnson's pot-smoking ultimate frisbee playing demographic.
posted by Justinian at 8:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]


If you want to prepare yourself for tomorrow's (possibly already overhyped) Newsweek story about Trump and Cuba, Bloomberg had some reporting on the subject back in July: Did Donald Trump’s Executives Violate the Cuban Embargo?
posted by zachlipton at 8:02 PM on September 28, 2016


I think the 100 Central Park South story will be a no-go since it won't resonate with most voters, who aren't urban renters and have no concept of tenant law. It sounds vaguely unsavory or not nice, but if you're an Ohioan homeowner it's hard to find your place in that particular narrative.
posted by Sara C. at 8:04 PM on September 28, 2016


I don't know, a HRC commercial with a couple of cute old couples who used to live there recounting their memories intercut with stock footage of garbage and rats would probably be pretty effective.
posted by mmoncur at 8:06 PM on September 28, 2016 [14 favorites]


Guys, Sam Bee is on fire tonight.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:07 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


So after that failed he filled the halls with garbage that attracted rats and roaches, which he then refused to have exterminated and told tenants they and their guests had to use the trash elevators to get into the building, including patients in a dentists office. He told the super to make absolutely no repairs. By the end it got so bad that tenants were able to provide pictures to the court of mushrooms growing out of the carpet in hallways.

Is...is this not the basis for the plot to the Joe Pesci vehicle The Super?
posted by nubs at 8:12 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, this is like a pastiche of every trope of shitty slumlords in 70s/80s NYC.
posted by Sara C. at 8:14 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Eric Trump: It Took “Courage” For My Dad To Not Mention Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

The Washington Post isn't quite so brave. Enabler or family defender? How Hillary Clinton responded to husband’s accusers. The article does provide a platform for the shit flingers, but it is still somewhat sympathetic to Clinton's position. I guess the biggest effect of this line of attack is to nudge Bill out of being an useful surrogate.
posted by peeedro at 8:14 PM on September 28, 2016


Sara C. -- Imagine if the renters evicted were made into a play, maybe titled "The Landlord" or "Home". (So, _not_ titled in a way that alludes to New York, but more universally resonating).

The play could be about three families or other renters who live there, and also have very evenly played segments of the landlord(s) making "business" decisions to buy the building (planning to get the old tenants out), etc. The families' rush to deal with the various tactics used by the landlord/management, the actual experience of no water service played out and experienced emotionally by the renters, the very different experience of the people behind the decisions to do that... it could be very powerful theater.

One would have to be very careful legally, of course, and it would be very important to keep things either100% factual or 100% fictional.

However, a lot of people rent. A lot. I think the story could be very compelling.
posted by amtho at 8:14 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Gary Johnson: Take a Deep Breath, Voters. There Is a Third Way.

"It's about having more choices than red versus blue ... Our kids are better educated than ever before. Our technology enables entrepreneurship and transparency. Our military is second to none, as it should be. But our two-party political system is an entirely different story. Hyper-partisanship may be entertaining, but it’s a terrible way to try to run a country. We’re the alternative — and we’re the only ticket that offers Americans a chance to find common ground."


jesus goddamn christ the gary johnson shit has got to be the most shallow, asinine read on this whole election

I'm getting a lot of this on Facebook, and I want to post an explainer about how the two party system is two parties because of fucking mathematics, but I have no confidence in my ability to explain it.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


Gary Johnson: Take a Deep Breath, Voters.

The pot works better that way.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


To be clear, I'm not saying that I don't care about this, or that nobody could ever care about this. It just isn't as universal as "Do you want your daughter growing up in a country run by a guy who calls women fat pigs?" or "You're required to pay your fair share of taxes. Why isn't Trump?" Lots of people have daughters and pay taxes even if they'd rather not. Almost everyone who knows the stakes involved in this story lives in a blue state.

I think this would be the perfect October Surprise if this were Clinton vs. Trump for governor of New York, though.
posted by Sara C. at 8:17 PM on September 28, 2016


Sure, if it's about rent control vs. the inconvenience/lost revenue.

However, if it's about people being thrown out of their home, or having to live with garbage, I think that's pretty easy to understand (I'm from Georgia and I understand it). If it's about people not caring about other people living with garbage, also understandable.

That's what art can do: frame a story _so that_ people can relate to it.
posted by amtho at 8:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]


Jonathan Mann, who's recorded and posted a song on YouTube every day for more than seven years, presents The Hillary Shimmy Song.
posted by Shmuel510 at 8:24 PM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


...and what is Aleppo a world leader?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:26 PM on September 28, 2016


Prince Georging, Meflection, and Gobbing: A brief guide to Trump's rhetorical tricks
This is key: You have to slow down and name what Trump is doing instead of reacting to it. Otherwise it might work on you.

Consider terms like "gaslighting," "mansplaining," and "negging." These are words that anatomized and labeled dumb dominance behaviors whose social effects aren't dumb — they're real. Naming this sort of thing teaches others (especially those not subject to the behaviors in question) to think twice about how our perceptions are tweaked by social cues and how animalistically we're programmed. If someone calls someone else weak and they don't challenge it, the lizard brain's first impulse is not to say, "Well, of course, it's unreasonable to expect someone to respond to such an uncivil charge." It is to say, "HUH! GUESS HE IS WEAK." If a man talks over someone else for long enough and the other party doesn't manage to stop it, this person must not be worth listening to. This is what happened to Jeb Bush. We only barely get control over these impulses by making our psychological vulnerabilities visible; that is, by naming them.
posted by Lexica at 8:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


As someone on reddit pointed out, that shady landlord shit is also Kingpin's plot for part of season 1 of Daredevil. So in addition to inspiring Biff from Back to the Future 2, Trump is a partial inspiration for an Avengers villain. What the fuck, america. What the fuck.

Related: Luke Cage, the superhero show about a bulletproof black man thrown in prison for a crime he didn't commit fighting against political corruption, comes out friday. It was filmed over the summer, and I fully expect there to be some oblique Trump references in there.
Whichever mods handle the fanfare threads: sorry.
posted by fomhar at 8:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]


In comic book universes, Lex Luthor was once elected President and Loki is running this year (the Asgardian Trickster is apparently not deplorable enough for Trump's team).
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:35 PM on September 28, 2016


From that same reddit thread (linking to the WaPo piano dealer story), another good point I saw, paraphrasing:

If you're going to spend $100,000 on pianos (or conceivably more if you consider the other casinos and hotels), why not go direct to the manufacturer? They should be better equipped to handle large orders. It seems like Trump chooses small businesses because he knows they won't have the same legal resources to battle when he decides to stiff the bill.
posted by p3t3 at 9:03 PM on September 28, 2016 [69 favorites]


POTUS explains why he won't say "radical Islamic terrorism."

I'm all in for Clinton and have been from the beginning, but that doesn't mean I won't miss this guy.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:08 PM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


A reminder of delegate votes from the primaries:

Trump got 14,015,993 votes
Clinton got 16,914,722 votes
posted by kirkaracha at 9:08 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Losing $30,000 was a big hit to me and my family. The profit from Trump was meant to be a big part of my salary for the year. So I made much less. There was no money to help grow my business. I had fewer pianos in the showroom and a smaller advertising budget. Because of Trump, my store stagnated for a couple of years."

Step 1: Find a small family business that can't afford to hire a lawyer to fight you when you stiff them.

Step 2: Stiff them.

Step 3: Make America Great Again!
posted by vverse23 at 9:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [26 favorites]


Didn't Governor Gary Johnson's policies on health care and education in New Mexico result in a chain of events where a gifted high school chemistry teacher ended up turning to crime and drugs as a means to pay for his cancer treatment.
posted by humanfont at 9:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [69 favorites]


I fully expect there to be some oblique Trump references in there.

Vincent d'Onofrio as Kingpin is Trump's wish fulfillment. He still gets beat. Badly.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:15 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Guys, get real. Kingpin is a way more sympathetic character, and treats both romantic partners and small contractors with more respect.
posted by corb at 9:21 PM on September 28, 2016 [32 favorites]


POTUS explains why he won't say 'radical Islamic terrorism.'

Clinton addressed this in December in similar terms:
STEPHANOPOULOS: So what's the problem with radical Islam?

CLINTON: Well, the problem is that that sounds like we are declaring war against a religion. And that, to me, is, number one, wrong but...
...
I don't want to do that because, number one, it doesn't do justice to the vast numbers of Muslims in our own country and around the world who are peaceful people.

Number two, it helps to create this clash of civilizations that is actually a recruiting tool for ISIS and other radical jihadists who use this as a way of saying we're in a war against the West. You must join us. If you are a Muslim, you must join us.

No. If you're a law-abiding, peace-loving Muslim, you need to be with us against those who are distorting Islam.
Also, in June:
"And from my perspective, it matters what we do, not what we say. It matters that we got Bin Laden, not what name we called him," Clinton said. "But if [Trump] is somehow suggesting I don't call this for what it is, he hasn't been listening. I have clearly said we face terrorist enemies who use Islam to justify slaughtering people. We have to stop them and we will. We have to defeat radical jihadist terrorism, and we will."

Both terms "mean the same thing," Clinton continued, adding, "And to me, radical jihadism, radical Islamism, I think they mean the same thing. I'm happy to say either, but that's not the point."
Trump took credit in June for making her "break," but this week is back to saying "[The media] just don't want to say that because that offends some people, including our president."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:21 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hey guys, guess who represented Donald Trump in his 1973 discrimination trial? ROY FUCKING COHN.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:26 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump and Roy Cohn were good friends. The Times did a feature on them a few months ago: What Donald Trump Learned From Joseph McCarthy’s Right-Hand Man
posted by zachlipton at 9:32 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Good lord, I'm nostalgic for George W Bush.

When you start to feel that way, just remember his hilarious joke from the White House Correspondents Dinner: "Those weapons of mass destruction have gotta be here somewhere."

4,400+ total deaths of US servicemen and -women, and 100,000+ Iraqis killed. Funny, funny joke.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:35 PM on September 28, 2016 [23 favorites]


"Not to be all "my Cuban friend" but uh, my Cuban friend has told me that while a lot of the first-gen Cuban refugees atill very much feel that way, their kids and grandkids (of which he is one) really don't seem to care all that much"

Yeah, I have a truckload of Cuban in-laws and I have asked about this a whole bunch (because I am curious and they love to talk about Cuba), and I think you're right -- the younger generation sees the failed embargo and want to visit their parents/grandparents' homeland, and relatives who remain there, and are mostly in favor of the opening up, and have attitudes that are more nuanced than, but not very different from, their peers who are not Cuban. The older generation, who mostly fled Cuba around the time of the revolution, would not be sad if Castro received an ICBM to the ass, but mostly recognize the embargo has failed to bring down the Castros, the Castros will be dead soon, opening trade with China has brought at least some opening of China, and they'd like to be able to visit Cuba again before they die. (A lot of them were also anti opening relations with Cuba while Fidel was in charge because he personally killed their relatives but now that it's Raul they're like "meh, as long as it's not Fidel.")

On the third hand, Miami Cubans are a whole world unto themselves and have much stronger feelings, and one of the oddities of American politics is that Florida is a swing state and Miami Cubans can swing it and so both parties have to cater to Miami Cubans and their Cuba-embargo preferences. I am friendly with a guy who was the managing editor of the Miami Herald for close to 30 years (now retired), and he always remarks, "When I'm outside Miami I'm always startled how much nobody gives a shit about Cuba, and how it's not front page news in other newspapers. You forget that when you're inside the Miami bubble, where Cuba matters a lot." Anyway, Cuban-Americans in general may have less strong feelings than Cuban-Americans in Miami where it's a much hotter topic.

On the fourth hand I am saving my pennies to tag along on a Cuba trip with my in-laws because it's going to be AWESOME.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]


POTUS explains why he won't say "radical Islamic terrorism."

I prefer to think he's just not doing it just to piss off Conservatives.
posted by bongo_x at 9:45 PM on September 28, 2016


As mentioned above, the newest Frontline about the election is really interesting. I've been reading everything I can find for over a year, and this still had a ton of new (to me) information about both Hillary and Donald. They cover the Roy Cohn relationship in detail.
posted by monkeystronghold at 9:49 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


From waaaaay up thread:
This is what Republicans are going through. The choices are a petulant, racist seven year old who will at least rubber stamp most of the shit you push through and an experienced public servant who can and will fight you tooth and nail on every policy position you hold dear -- Talez

It's common knowledge Republican-side that Trump just wants the prestige, and he will be delegating most of his governance to Pence -- corb

I would like to think that the President of the United States is the *actual* President, not a carefully shepherded actor given merely one tiny job, that of being the face of the President. It's become apparent through a lot of things Trump and his people have said and done that Donald himself is under the impression that this would be kind of like starring on a TV show, and not really like doing the work of governing a world super power. We've had "actor" Presidents before, like Bush II and Reagan, and at least in my opinion, government becomes less transparent and more cynical during these times. But what's worse about Trump's case is that, in both of those examples, it was pretty clear who exactly was "producing" the show that Reagan and Dubya were mouthpieces for. With Trump, it's a lot less clear -- Sara C.

I don't know who thinks that Trump will just be a puppet for their agendas once he takes the oath of office, but they are dead wrong. No carrots, no sticks, are going to keep him in check for four years. He can't even last through a debate without crashing and burning. He does not take direction well.
If the Republican Party thinks that he will lie down and take it once he has a whiff of real power... nope, not happening.
posted by TrishaU at 11:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [20 favorites]


guys, my yard signs shipped!
posted by mrzarquon at 11:14 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Or having Pakistanis sue the US in Pakistani courts because their house got blowed up by a US bomb

Maybe that kind of hypothetical will result in presidential candidates who are more careful about their decisions or endorsements to bomb other countries.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald not at his best in Chicago yesterday...
posted by Devonian at 11:26 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]




Or having Pakistanis sue the US in Pakistani courts because their house got blowed up by a US bomb

Maybe that kind of hypothetical will result in presidential candidates who are more careful about their decisions or endorsements to bomb other countries.


More likely to increase the budget of whichever CIA team is responsible for paying off biddable officials in the country.
posted by bardophile at 11:38 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Two days after the debate, Trump responds to Clinton’s comment on implicit bias:
"Then in our debate this week, she accuses the entire country — including all of law enforcement — of implicit bias, essentially suggesting that everyone, including our police, are basically racist and prejudiced. You heard that. And I'm standing there in front of this massive crowd of people ... And I said to myself: 'Did she really say that?' She said it. It's a bad thing she said."
1) Unlike revenge, comebacks are not best served cold.
2) "Massive crowd"? Hofstra Arena seats 5,023 max.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:50 PM on September 28, 2016 [15 favorites]


When you start to feel that way, just remember his hilarious joke from the White House Correspondents Dinner: "Those weapons of mass destruction have gotta be here somewhere."

Yes, you don't have to convince me. I was there, or rather the eight years he was in office kinda broke my brain about politics and governance. It was hard to believe he was elected twice. It was existentially horrifying for me to imagine him as the "leader of the free world" the entire time he was in office. I became a 9/11 truther for a few years (which is how I know all about Alex Jones, et al). It was beyond stressful. I couldn't stand following political news for a while, though I grew up being a political news junkie.

The point I was trying to make is that, as bad as Bush was, the current Republican nominee almost makes me like the guy. Almost.
posted by krinklyfig at 12:05 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald not at his best in Chicago yesterday...


I give it a day and a half before he tweets "Crooked Hillary gave me pneumonia".
posted by mmoncur at 12:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald not at his best in Chicago yesterday...

Blame Hillary (for everything):
I shook hands with her at the debate. I didn't have to do it, I didn't like doing it, my lawyers told me not to do it, but I wanted to be nice. And now many people are saying I sniff and I sound congested. I don't, they just have defective ears, but I'm gonna sue her anyway. [fake]
posted by valetta at 12:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I shook hands with her at the debate. I didn't have to do it, I didn't like doing it, my lawyersdoctors told me not to do it, but I wanted to be nice.

It's just a matter of how you spin it!
posted by sour cream at 3:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


How fucking weird would it be to be Clinton in this race? 20+ years playing this game by the rules, no cheat codes, slowly leveling up, grinding through the levels, and...this is the final boss?

In this analogy, it really IS about ethics in "games" journalism. OMG
posted by maxwelton at 3:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


Trump Fell into a Trap in the Debate
The interesting thing about the video is not so much what Machado says in it, but the fact that it undoubtedly took weeks to collect the 34 clips in the video (including some old footage), add transitions and subtitles (Machado speaks in Spanish in the video), and generally put together a very professional ad. Clinton's bringing this up during the debate—and near the end to maximize the chance of people's remembering it—was no accident or idea that suddenly popped into her head. Trump may eventually realize that he is up against a pro.

Worse yet, the story is raging on and on. Machado was interviewed yesterday on CNN, ABC, MSNBC, Fox News, Telemundo, and Univision. Pundits of all stripes are talking about her. She was mentioned in 150 print articles, 6,000 times on television, and 200,000 times in tweets. When you combine a beauty queen, tabloid journalism with presidential politics, it doesn't go away quickly. Machado, who is an actress is Spanish-language soap operas, is used to appearing in public and is well known to Latinos, so she could become a powerful voice for Clinton's outreach to that community.
posted by octothorpe at 3:44 AM on September 29, 2016 [63 favorites]


The New Yorker: How Much Damage Did the Debate Do to Donald Trump?
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


TrishaU: " If the Republican Party thinks that he will lie down and take it once he has a whiff of real power... nope, not happening."

I believe Obama already brought this up, but what Trump doesn't realize is that the actual job of being president is pretty boring and stressful. Campaigning is fun, or it can be. But the day to day tasks of the president are not well suited to someone who has difficulty paying attention. I don't think he'd last a full day of doing the actual work before storming off in a huff and telling Pence to handle it. Of course, Trump would insist on doing all the public appearances.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


How fucking weird would it be to be Clinton in this race?

I've been thinking about this a lot. Imagine if this job got filled in the normal way - CVs, interviews, practical tests, that sort of thing. Now imagine getting two CVs on your desk - one from Clinton, one from Trump.

Trump wouldn't even get a rejection letter.

Democracy, boy. The worst possible system, except for all the others.


(
posted by Devonian at 4:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Welp, the Republicans nominated a eugenicist. Because of course he is. You know who else--I can't even.

This May Be The Most Horrible Thing That Donald Trump Believes

"The Frontline documentary “The Choice,” which premiered this week on PBS, reveals that Trump agrees with the dangerous and abusive theory of eugenics.

Trump’s father instilled in him the idea that their family’s success was genetic, according to Trump biographer Michael D’Antonio.

“The family subscribes to a racehorse theory of human development,” D’Antonio says in the documentary. “They believe that there are superior people and that if you put together the genes of a superior woman and a superior man, you get a superior offspring.”
posted by chris24 at 4:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [46 favorites]


Not sure how much this affects the JCPL, but PPP has five battleground state polls out this morning:
Clinton has solid leads in Colorado, Pennsylvania, and Virginia- states seen as important to her path to 270 electoral votes- and modest leads in Florida and North Carolina, where wins would be indicative of a dominant overall victory in the Electoral College. If these results hold up, Donald Trump has no path to victory:

Colorado
Clinton 46, Trump 40, Johnson 6, Stein 2
Clinton 51, Trump 44

Florida
Clinton 45, Trump 43, Johnson 3, Stein 1
Clinton 48, Trump 45

North Carolina
Clinton 44, Trump 42, Johnson 7
Clinton 49, Trump 45

Pennsylvania
Clinton 45, Trump 39, Johnson 6, Stein 2
Clinton 49, Trump 44

Virginia
Clinton 46, Trump 40, Johnson 7, Stein 1
Clinton 49, Trump 43
Another note of interest:
One area where Clinton particularly received a boost Monday night is with voters under 30. They overwhelmingly see Clinton as the winner and they’re starting to vote for her in larger numbers than they had before
posted by zombieflanders at 4:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [61 favorites]


The Newsweek story about Trump's illegal dealings with Cuba is out. Its good reporting and has interesting points, and he should be asked questions about this. Its just another straw to throw on top.
posted by cashman at 4:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


zombieflanders: Whoo! Okay!
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


PPP has five battleground state polls out this morning ... voters under 30 ... overwhelmingly see Clinton as the winner and they’re starting to vote for her in larger numbers than they had before

Is it just me, or are Johnson's numbers going down in parallel with Clinton's going up? (in the 4-way race)
posted by saturday_morning at 4:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Seriously, watch the embedded video in the eugenics link. Lots of creepy quotes, including:

"Frankly it'd be wonderful if you could develop it, but I'm not so sure you can."

And of course ends with "You know I'm proud to have that German blood, there's no question about it."
posted by chris24 at 4:48 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


As we get closer to the election, traditionally third party candidates numbers go down.
posted by drezdn at 4:54 AM on September 29, 2016




@sopandeb: "Conway tells @megynkelly that Trump hasn't received enough credit for calling Clinton "Secretary Clinton," her most recent title:"

A crack in the sidewalk is a higher bar than expectations for Trump.
posted by chris24 at 5:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]


She is having a good week.

Here is what worries me now (patience please, this is default mode for me in this election): Once again Trump is dominating the headlines. On the one hand it's great, because it's mainly watching him self-immolate every other minute and his team adding more gasoline once in a while. And believe me, I am thoroughly enjoying warming my hands at the fire. BUT - I really wish there could be some more on Clinton - her policies, her ideas, her hard work, her stamina, her humanity.

Is there time for this type of message to get out there in between Trump trapping? I'm hoping the town hall format is the right opportunity for this. Is anyone more familiar with what she's like in this type of setting?
posted by like_neon at 5:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


"The Frontline documentary “The Choice,” which premiered this week on PBS, reveals that Trump agrees with the dangerous and abusive theory of eugenics.

The author of that HuffPo piece does not understand what eugenics is.

It's not merely the belief that one's genes are the primary determinant of one's quality, nor that "superior" people produce "superior" offspring, or the same for "inferior." Eugenics goes farther and says that social policy should specifically encourage the reproduction of "superior" people and/or discourage, often forcibly, the reproduction of "inferior" people. As wrong and reprehensible as Trump's beliefs in that video may be, nothing he says rises to the level of eugenics, and the Frontline documentary itself does not describe it as such.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


If the Republican Party thinks that he will lie down and take it once he has a whiff of real power... nope, not happening.

This is definitely one of the justifications of Trump that I find the most baffling. A primary characteristic of his campaign has been him not listening to advisers, and also him throwing people out of his inner circle when they fail to 100% back his crazier instincts. It is completely beyond me how anyone can look at that and think, "sure, he's nuts, but he'll just let us run the show once he's in office".
posted by tocts at 5:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Personally, I don't find that fact that he hasn't publicly expressed an opinion that his beliefs on improving the human race should be implemented nationally very reassuring.
posted by chris24 at 5:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


He may not be committed to eugenic policies, but it sounds like he buys eugenic beliefs about the value of human beings. Those beliefs don't just underpin Nazi-style policies on human reproduction, they also underpin a cluster of other Nazi-style policies on race, equality, and the functions of women. It's pretty illuminating and disturbing to learn that Trump accepts the basic eugenic premise that human value is a matter of bloodlines -- that has broad policy implications even if it's unlikely that he will institute actual breeding licenses and sterilisations of the unfit.
posted by Aravis76 at 5:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


Is...is this not the basis for the plot to the Joe Pesci vehicle The Super?

At some point during the debate, Trump was doing one of his word salad answers on a topic he clearly knew nothing about, issuing a rapid-fire stream of patent bullshit. (Obviously, it's hard to pinpoint the exact moment.) I looked over at my wife and said, "He sounds just like a Joe Pesci character."
posted by EarBucket at 5:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It also illuminates one of the places his racism and his misogyny come from.
posted by Jalliah at 5:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Scott Alexander comes out strongly for anyone but Trump. With a typically (and hilariously) over-thinking, over-long blogpost. You think MeFi over thinks a hill of beans? This site has nothing on Scott all by his lonesome self.
posted by pharm at 5:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Looks like Donald's terrible, horrible, no good, very bad week will be continuing - preview of the New Yorker's scathing cover .
posted by madamjujujive at 5:41 AM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


So a Trump is a Death Eater?
posted by Biblio at 5:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Those PPP polls look pretty good. Anyone know when new polling out of Ohio will be coming out?
posted by localhuman at 5:46 AM on September 29, 2016


Wow. That cover is...gyahk. Hilarious, awesome... but so, so upsetting. I need a lot more coffee in me before I can look at stuff like that.
posted by invincible summer at 5:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's going to tweet about that cover before the end of the day. SAD!
posted by cmfletcher at 5:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


The whole campaign has become one big conspiracy theory.:

Official FL GOP twitter account: "Was @HillaryClinton wearing an earpiece during last night’s presidential forum? Check it out: http://www.infowars.com/was-hillary-wearing-an-earpiece-during-last-nights-presidential-forum/"

And...

@DavidFrum: Newt: "And there are rumors that Hillary was actually given the questions in advance. I don't know if it's true …”

And...

Trump peddles Google conspiracy theory "Donald Trump on Wednesday touted a long-debunked conspiracy theory that the most popular internet search engine suppresses negative headlines about his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 5:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Does your average (or even marginal) Trump voter actually read the New Yorker? Seems unlikely.
posted by pharm at 5:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald not at his best in Chicago yesterday...

I was going to write that he probably has a common cold and if he'd say it, he might get some Hillary jokes but mostly it wouldn't be a big deal. I was going to say that if it is indeed a cold I hope that it's the type that sticks around for a long time. Hopefully it's the type that makes you not quite sick enough to be in bed but sick enough to be really annoying and make you feel like constant crap. I was going to write that it couldn't happen to a better person and a better time considering he should be putting in extra work for the next debate and would need all the energy he could muster.

Anyways I was going to say all this but I won't. It's not a good thing to wish people ill and it would just be me letting my own bitterness out. So instead I'll take the high road and say "Hope you get better soon Donald even if you can't actually admit you have anything to get better from."
posted by Jalliah at 5:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


You know, literally the only thing that has kept me sane re: the election is the hopes that a debate means more Greg Nog puppets
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh, Lort. Only cheaters think the only way to win is to cheat.

Anyhoo. At this point, I am more comfortable saying that we are looking forward to a Clinton presidency. However, I don't know if this country will recover from the damage done just by Trump's run for presidency in my lifetime. I know there are people in my sphere whom I will never view the same way again. Clinton's win will be tinged with apprehension and sadness for me. At least a few days after the "Woo!! OK!" wears off.
posted by thebrokedown at 6:01 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


are you there, Greg? It's me, other Greg
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Does your average (or even marginal) Trump voter actually read the New Yorker? Seems unlikely.

You don't have to read anything to get what the cover is saying just a glance and it's 'Oh ouch" I see this going viral. From people going 'OMG check this out", people laughing and making jokes and by people so, so mad about it. It's begging to be memefied as well.
If Trump does what he usually does and freaks out then he will spread it himself.

I doubt it's going to sway Trump supporters but it's the point in the election that's not about swaying ones that are solid for him.
posted by Jalliah at 6:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]




The Republicans were fine with Iran-Contra so they'll be fine with the violation of the Cuba embargo.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's going to be important to frame the post-election as a time to look, hard, at people's fears and bitternesses, and to start immediately on the difficult but rewarding work of actually 1) building processes that will improve the root causes of these problems, and 2) communicating efficiently and well about it, so that people who are being served know it and people who need to serve differently know that.
posted by amtho at 6:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Gary Johnson Has 'Aleppo Moment' at MSNBC Town Hall, Struggles to Name a Foreign Leader
"Any one of the continents, any country. Name one foreign leader that you respect and look up to. Anybody," host Chris Matthews pushed during the event, causing Johnson to sigh loudly as his VP pick Bill Weld tried to jump in.

"All of them, Katie," Johnson did not reply.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


The long-term problem is that if/when Clinton wins, Trump's supporters are not just going to evaporate. They're going to vote in the 2018 midterms and the Democrats (probably) aren't, and things will just be harder in 2020. Maybe one of the Trump kids (Ivanka?) runs for mayor of NYC or governor of NY. Winning this election is a stall.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


FYI, for those that may not know, the InfoWars link that the Florida GOP tweeted is Alex Jones' site. Yes, Alex Jones the 9/11 and Sandy Hook truther.
posted by chris24 at 6:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The thing that gets me about the earpiece thing is that most of the things she did in the debate to win aren't dependent on what an earpiece could provide anyways. And her earpiece wasn't controlling Donald and telling him to act like an ass.

But this would require observing reality so yeah not going to happen.
posted by Jalliah at 6:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maybe one of the Trump kids (Ivanka?) runs for mayor of NYC or governor of NY.

I hope they do, They will be crushed. He's polling -20 in New York. People here, who know him best, hate him. And the fucking kids.
posted by chris24 at 6:11 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


Right, EP. People need to start getting at the roots of these problems, not just hoping they go away on their own. Addressing them in the difficult, long-term ways that will actually solve things, not just tactics to win elections, or depending on one person to magically appear and vanquish the enemy.

We need to create the conditions that allow good leaders to emerge, that allow them to make good policies, that allow them to figure out what makes good policy. It's complicated, but we can do it.
posted by amtho at 6:11 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


OF COURSE she had the questions beforehand. No, not because of some underhanded plot, not because they were given to her. No. She probably had a chunk of her staff researching and polling and figuring out EVERY POSSIBLE question that could be asked, and then she PREPARED for ALL OF THEM. Like she said, she prepared to be President.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:14 AM on September 29, 2016 [58 favorites]


Lol, rightwing conservative talk show host Steve Deace even gets it:

"Overweight old white guys with 6 wives between them fat shaming women is every liberal stereotype of Republicans ever.

Morons."

posted by chris24 at 6:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [85 favorites]


People need to start getting at the roots of these problems, not just hoping they go away on their own. Addressing them in the difficult, long-term ways that will actually solve things, not just tactics to win elections, or depending on one person to magically appear and vanquish the enemy.

Good luck with your Fourierism!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


So I think some places have been prepared for Donald to 'go there...'

TPM: Proud Adulterer Blames Woman For Not Stopping Husband's Adultery

This campaign still astounds me at how stupid it is. Even if he was determined to do it at some point this is the absolute worst week for him to do it.
posted by Jalliah at 6:18 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


CNN is reporting that Trump has been yelling at his underlings for refusing to acknowledge what an amazing job he did at the debate. Sounds like he's going into full-on Hitler-with-funny-subtitles mode.
posted by EarBucket at 6:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [45 favorites]


How is there not a debate Downfall parody already?
posted by chris24 at 6:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sounds like his latest divorce is from reality itself. I wonder who will get custody of the kids?
posted by cmfletcher at 6:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Good luck with your Fourierism.

Watch out! He's a Fourierist!
posted by y2karl at 6:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Gary Johnson is just so stupid, it's awesome
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Who here can't immediately picture Johnson doing the Junior Birdmen goggles
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jim Acosta has obtained the Trump campaign talking points on taxes and charity (and stop and frisk), including:

"Farenthold is grasping for straws, even as he admits he cannot find anything that was improper. What a waste of 6 months of his life and career."


He admitted no such thing on Fresh Air yesterday. The style of his paper may prohibit him from directly saying "J'accuse!", but in the interview he made absolutely clear Trump appears to be guilty of multiple violations of the law, and that Team Trump doesn't have anything resembling a good excuse.

I hope the media is able to do the minimal legwork it'd require to understand that Acosta is lying.

And then to wonder why he might feel the need to lie like that.

And then, I'd like a pony.
posted by Gelatin at 6:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Someone with musical talent should put this tweet to music -- it's catchy.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


From from the CNN story EarBucket linked:
One ally described Trump as the kind of guy who can't simply be told a stove is hot -- he has to touch it to see for himself.
Does this ally really think that's the kind of guy who should be president?
posted by chrchr at 6:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


LAT: Employees at Trump's California golf course say he wanted to fire women who weren't pretty enough

"When Trump did visit, the club’s managers went on alert. They scheduled the young, thin, pretty women on staff to work the clubhouse restaurant — because when Trump saw less-attractive women working at his club, according to court records, he wanted them fired.

"I had witnessed Donald Trump tell managers many times while he was visiting the club that restaurant hostesses were 'not pretty enough' and that they should be fired and replaced with more attractive women,” Hayley Strozier, who was director of catering at the club until 2008, said in a sworn declaration."
posted by chris24 at 6:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [48 favorites]


madamjujujive - check out the video emjaybee linked above
posted by Roommate at 6:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I hope the media is able to do the minimal legwork it'd require to understand that Acosta is lying.

And then to wonder why he might feel the need to lie like that.


Acosta didn't lie. He just reprinted exactly what the talking points said. He got a copy of all of them and posted copies on twitter. Farenhold ask him for them.
posted by Jalliah at 6:35 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Who here can't immediately picture Johnson doing the Junior Birdmen goggles

"Up in the air, Gary Johnson! Up in the air upside down!"

I wish he'd get real small and sing that at every campaign stop. It'd have to be more fun than whatever he's been doing so far.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]




OMG, roommate, I missed that, thank you - that is hilarious! And thank you emjaybee. I love Randy Rainbow's clips, one of my favorite priors: Ya Got Trump Trouble
posted by madamjujujive at 6:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is providing insight into how things probably work in North Korea.

Dissent is not just unwelcome, it's disloyal. Probably, eventually, criminal.

I've watched "The Apprentice". Most of the challenges involve some kind of barely-there product being marketed to within an inch of its life by celebrities calling on their friends to give money. The main focus, though, is on marketing: making the products seem cool, or fun, or fresh. Your celebrity-invented ice cream flavor or tea flavor probably shouldn't taste terrible, but nobody really cares; there isn't time, sure, but what really matters is how many people you can get to show up and/or give money.

Oh, and dominance games, and persuading people, by any means necessary, to do what you want. There is no weight given to building long-term relationships, or creating something that has real value.

I think that this man actually believes that there is no such thing as people whom one can trust. That there is nothing more important in life than "winning" in the sense of getting more money and thus the power to shame others.

This tendency to believe the worst of people, to forget or never realize that other people actually do have a strong drive to help others and to do good, valuable things, or to believe that these genuine drives are weaker than the drive to dominate and "win", is what most religions seem to be trying to counteract.

This is probably part of the root of many religious groups' worries about losing "fundamental" values. Of course there are a lot of people turning religion into a tool for dominance and self-interest, too, but there are also sincere people dealing with questions of conscience.

What kind of life would he have had to have grown up with so little warmth toward others? Even his own children seem valued mainly for their appearances, of success or desirability.
posted by amtho at 6:44 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


I think that this man actually believes that there is no such thing as people whom one can trust.

He said as much to his kids. He brought them up to trust no one, not even him. Trust is for losers and weaklilngs. The winner only trusts himself.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Online phone banks for Hillary just started calling Ohio! There's still plenty of time to make a difference if you're interested in doing some phone banking at home. MeMail if you'd like to join my "call team"- I can offer advice and commiseration and lots of cheerleading!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


If anybody in Durham/Chapel Hill NC wants to volunteer, also, MeMail me.
posted by amtho at 6:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump wouldn't even get a rejection letter.

Dear Mr. Trump,

After reviewing your application and reference letters from a Mr. D. Duke and a Mr. John Baron, we simply feel you are massively overqualified for the position of a simple commander in chief. We think we can't provide the sort of opportunities for professional and personal growth a candidate of your abilities surely expects. Nor can we match your salary request of one billion dollars or offer you a gold plated version of our company plane.

Also, do you think we are that fucking stupid?

We wish you all the best in your future endeavors.

Sincerely

Rational America

Cover: can we run this by legal before it goes out?
posted by spitbull at 6:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


Though that must be a hell of a needle to thread for Trump's kids. A guy who actually called his grade school aged kid a loser for saying he trusted his dad but who is also a megalomaniac who demands absolute loyalty from everyone, most especially his children. So, don't trust him, but always ask how high when he tells you to jump, or else.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


"She said it. It's a bad thing she said."

I've read the articles that peg Trump's speaking level anywhere from 3rd to 6th grade, but this right here is toddler level diction.
posted by zakur at 6:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


@PaulBegala: "Good news for Trump: he is ahead in the latest poll. In South Carolina. By four points."

Obviously, the Trump campaign needs more T-Rav.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Thanks to this thread, I did some reading on Hillary's faith, and despite the fact that religion is pretty meaningless to me most of the time, I REALLY hope that the candidates' faith comes up in the next debate. It's a perfectly fair question - it's important to many people - and I can't imagine someone Christian hearing the two of them next to each other and maintaining a cogent religious argument for Trump.
posted by R a c h e l at 6:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


A new post-debate poll from rightwing pollster Rasmussen:

4Way
Clinton 42% (+1)
Trump 41%

Last week it was Trump +5.
posted by chris24 at 6:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


For reference, here is Hillary's most extensive recent explanation of her faith.
posted by R a c h e l at 6:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


The thing is, my parents are evangelical Christians and have gone whole-hog for trump. My dad posted an article from a Christian website to Facebook, saying if you don't vote the right way you can look forward to the destruction of the church and everything you hold dear. So, apparently, the most godly candidate is the guy who has had three wives, doesn't believe in God, and never goes to church? Ok, I guess.

This election has been great for identifying which conservative pundits actually have intellectual integrity and which ones are bankrupt shills for whoever is the republican candidate.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


Amtho- that The Choice special has some details about Trump's early life that are pretty disturbing and sad. Guys like Trump don't spring up out of a vacuum...
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


When Gary Johnson talks, all I can hear is Count Olaf disguised as Stephano in A Series of Unfortunate Events.
posted by cashman at 7:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


This election has been great for identifying which conservative pundits actually have intellectual integrity and which ones are bankrupt shills for whoever is the republican candidate.

"Which pundits?"
"All of them."
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Lol, rightwing conservative talk show host Steve Deace even gets it:

"Overweight old white guys with 6 wives between them fat shaming women is every liberal stereotype of Republicans ever.

Morons."


What's even more telling is the first reply to that tweet:
@SteveDeaceShow @benshapiro she was used a campaign pawn which makes her fair game slut with dark past -murders/porn not great surrogate
They just don't get it. It's just double down, double down, double down. Eventually the aggression will win and the shit will land on everybody, right?
posted by Talez at 7:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Breitbart (not linking because Breitbart can go fuck themselves) is reporting that talk show host Michael Savage (audience of 20 million listeners across 400 radio stations on the Westwood One network) had his show yanked off the air on Monday in New York and other markets after he started talking about Clinton's health and suggesting she may have Parkinson's disease.
posted by zarq at 7:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


No, there actually are some people and pundits on SS #NeverTrump. We're few but real!
posted by corb at 7:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]




Yeah, that wasn't entirely fair.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:08 AM on September 29, 2016


Hey corb- if you're up to talking about it, how do you feel about Cruz's recent semi-endorsement? I couldn't believe he did that after already betting so much of his career on being the one dude who didn't bend the knee.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:10 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


murders/porn not great surrogate

Not surprising of course, but the porn stuff Daily Caller was pushing is BS.
posted by chris24 at 7:10 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


No, there actually are some people and pundits on SS #NeverTrump. We're few but real!

I very much appreciate your efforts to draw a distinction between pundits and people.
posted by dersins at 7:11 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


This election has been great for identifying which conservative pundits actually have intellectual integrity and which ones are bankrupt shills for whoever is the republican candidate.

The time since at least the 2000 election has been great for the same.

The tally tilts heavily , if not exclusively, toward the latter.

(Offhand, Norm Ornstein and David Frum spring to mind, and both of them are persona non grata not only in conservative circles, but also in the so-called "liberal media," which couldn't get enough of the "this Democrat agrees with Republicans!" narrative, in general.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:11 AM on September 29, 2016


If Rasmussen is showing a Clinton lead (and let's be honest he has like +6 Republican lean) that's terrible news for Trump.

At this point I'm not sure that one of the old "Phoenix rising from the ashes" style narratives is going to be able to counteract the damage that Trump did to himself. And that's even assuming he's willing to go with that narrative, as they seem sold on the "Online Polls said Trump won so must be true!"
posted by vuron at 7:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I very much appreciate your efforts to draw a distinction between pundits and people.

For some reason, jokes about classes of people not being human beings are not funny to me any more.

Pundits are humans, so are politicians, and so are you.
posted by argybarg at 7:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


538 is showing Florida mildly dem again, which is what I suspect all their large swings depend on.
posted by Artw at 7:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


No, there actually are some people and pundits on SS #NeverTrump. We're few but real!

Elias Isquith puts it best tweeting in response to an article from George Will that still manages to blame liberals for Trump:
These people don't deserve credit for disowning Trump unless they take some ownership of how we got here too
posted by zombieflanders at 7:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


Ohh that Newsweek cover in regards to the Trump-Cuba connection:

I take back my previous statement thinking that this story would not have legs. That cover alone with Castro's name in huge print over this massive Trump Bully Boy face is not going to go over well.

Especially in Florida

Especially among older Cubanos
posted by vuron at 7:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


I think the narrative about the polls is going to turn out to be this:

The people who really, actually, care and pay attention to governance are the ones who paid attention through the primaries and conventions. As a result, they were responsible for the enormous advantage for Clinton after the conventions, because it is so transparent to them that Trump is a dangerous buffoon.

Most of the population doesn't pay attention that closely, so heading into election season, they assume that Trump is a "normal" candidate and hew to their football teams... I mean, parties. Hence the rise in polls to typical near-even split. But now that he's actually out and showing himself side by side with Clinton, and the people who are not politics-obsessed are starting to finally understand him, his polls will drop like a stone again.
posted by Sublimity at 7:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


Unedited, verbatim— Donald Trump on smart people at his rally in Iowa:

"People don't know how smart you are. These are the smart people. These are the smart people. These are really the smart people. Andy they never like to say it. But I say it. And I'm a smart person. These are the smart."

This begs to be read in the voice of Fredo Corleone ("I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart, and I want respect!").
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


It has been said here before (by people much more eloquent than I) that Hillary suffers when she isn't in front of our eyeballs. Part of this is the fault of the media, but that is besides the point.

So she got a huge bump post Democratic Convention, then it dwindled as she did smaller speeches and local events. I think the reason she went so low in the polls was due to the larger time between conventions and first debate. The moment she does something high profile and people see the power of her speaking abilities she rapidly rises.

We can talk about what is right or wrong about this, especially as it relates to American politics, but the bottom line is that from not to the election, both her and Trump are going to be front and center. And that is really only good for Clinton, and bad for the Orange Emperor.

I'd guess we'll see her polling numbers rise, find their average and stay there. Probably somewhere midway between her low(last week) and her high (post DNC bump).
posted by Twain Device at 7:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Another from today's LAT: Trump's rise draws white supremacists into political mainstream: 'I am winning,' says David Duke

“Before Trump, our identity ideas, national ideas, they had no place to go,” said Richard Spencer, president of the National Policy Institute, a white nationalist think tank based in Arlington, Va.

Not since Southern segregationist George Wallace’s failed presidential bids in 1968 and 1972 have white nationalists been so motivated to participate in a presidential election.

Andrew Anglin, editor of the Daily Stormer website and an emerging leader of a new generation of millennial extremists, said he had “zero interest” in the 2012 general election and viewed presidential politics as “pointless.” That is, until he heard Trump.

“Trump had me at ‘build a wall,’” Anglin said. “Virtually every alt-right Nazi I know is volunteering for the Trump campaign.”
posted by chris24 at 7:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]




These Are The Smart would be a fantastic name for an album by a '60s-era garage band.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


For some reason, jokes about classes of people not being human beings are not funny to me any more.

I get your point, but pundits are not a "class" of people in the same way as, say, immigrants or people of color or women or religious minorities or those who are queer or gender non-conforming or or or or or....

They are a very small group of highly-paid blowhards and bloviators who have risen to the "top" of a larger, self-selected pool of ambitious blowhards and bloviators, and, as far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of them can go fuck themselves.
posted by dersins at 7:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


"People don't know how smart you are. These are the smart people. These are the smart people. These are really the smart people. Andy they never like to say it. But I say it. And I'm a smart person. These are the smart."

SMRT
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


"People don't know how smart you are. These are the smart people. These are the smart people. These are really the smart people. Andy they never like to say it. But I say it. And I'm a smart person. These are the smart."

S-M-R-T
posted by zarq at 7:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Heh, Evan McMullin is out-polling Jill Stein in the latest PPP poll.
posted by octothorpe at 7:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think among the older Cubano refugees in Florida the story of Trump violating the embargo may make a significant number of them stay home. They won't vote for Clinton, but they've been a reliable Republican voting bloc since forever and they've been reliably Republican because they hate Castro and saw the Republicans as the most anti-Castro party in the USA.

With Trump breaking the embargo that vanishes. They'll either stay home or vote Johnson. Either way it tips things in Florida more towards Clinton.
posted by sotonohito at 7:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been quonsared!
posted by zarq at 7:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


great minds, etc etc
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yep he's definitely going there:

Trump Campaign Memo Tells Surrogates To Bring Up Clinton Sex Scandals


The Donald Trump campaign has circulated a memo telling surrogates to bring up Bill Clinton's sex scandals while defending Trump's comments about women like former Miss Universe Alicia Machado, CNN reported late Wednesday.

"Mr. Trump has never treated women the way Hillary Clinton and her husband did when they actively worked to destroy Bill Clinton's accusers," one campaign talking point reads, according to CNN.


And it looks like Clinton is ready and I dare say if I'm reading between the lines is a- okay with it and is throwing out some bait.


"After his disastrous debate performance and his sexist attack on a former Miss Universe over her weight, Donald Trump is now trying to deflect by going after Hillary Clinton about her marriage," spokesman Brian Fallon said in a statement. "While Trump and lieutenants like Roger Stone and David Bossie may want to dredge up failed attacks from the 1990s, as many Republicans have warned, this is a mistake that is going to backfire. He can try to distract from his demeaning comments against women, but if Donald Trump thinks these attacks against Hillary Clinton are going to throw her off her game and what matters to move this country forward, he is wrong."
posted by Jalliah at 7:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


So Trump is the Jerry Maguire of Alt-Right Stormfront?
posted by vuron at 7:31 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]




So Trump is the Jerry Maguire Springer of Alt-Right Stormfront?

FTFY.
posted by Talez at 7:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Heh, Evan McMullin is out-polling Jill Stein in the latest PPP poll.

I don't know what's funnier: that, or the fact that good old Eggs McMuffin has replaced Harambe and Deez Nuts as PPP's go-to joke candidate.

(Or is Stein the Deez Nuts of the new poll?)
posted by dersins at 7:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Michael Savage (audience of 20 million listeners across 400 radio stations on the Westwood One network) had his show yanked off the air on Monday in New York and other markets

FALSE. It was pre-empted by the debate, not yanked off the air. That asshole has said way worse shit than that in the past.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:35 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]






Detroit News endorses Johnson

(Link goes to the editorial page; for some reason if you click on "Read Story" they play a video which seems really stupid to me but I do not manage a newspaper.)
posted by bukvich at 7:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ah, the classic combo of fat shaming a beauty pageant winner and victim blaming a cheater's wife. A way to attract female voters than only a fat male adulterer could pull off! What could top this level of genius?
posted by sallybrown at 7:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [32 favorites]


Put he had them at "Build the Wall!"

It just seems like such an odd sentence, "We don't care if he's planning on selling out the US to Russian interests or loot the economy like Goering in WW2 as long as he builds a largely pointless symbol in the desert southwest to stop Brown people from coming!"
posted by vuron at 7:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Trump Has Repeatedly Sympathized With Hillary Clinton Over Lewinsky Affair

“I think she’s been through more than any woman should have to bear—, everything public.”
posted by chris24 at 7:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Here's a history of Trump's statements on Bill's sex life. In the 1990s, he called Bill's women ugly losers:

Oh geez, how could I not have anticipated this?! "My mistress is hotter than yours!"
posted by sallybrown at 7:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


So a Trump is a Death Eater?

Trump is Draco Malfoy if he didn't re-evaluate his life and grow up to be a better person.
posted by asteria at 7:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Heh, Evan McMullin is out-polling Jill Stein in the latest PPP poll.

Egg McMuffin is on the ballot only in Colorado, Iowa and New Mexico of the relevant states. 0.5% from Trump in Colorado could help.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Someone with musical talent should put this tweet to music -- it's catchy.

The tune of Call Me Irresponsible comes to mind.
posted by y2karl at 7:42 AM on September 29, 2016




The Donald Trump campaign has circulated a memo telling surrogates to bring up Bill Clinton's sex scandals while defending Trump's comments about women like former Miss Universe Alicia Machado, CNN reported late Wednesday.

At long last, have you left no sense of decency?
posted by nubs at 7:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Egg McMuffin is on the ballot only in Colorado, Iowa and New Mexico of the relevant states. 0.5% from Trump in Colorado could help.

Something that bears an amazing resemblance to Gary Johnson's list of targets. It would just take New Hampshire...
posted by Francis at 7:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]



Oh dear lord. Stuff is starting to trickle onto the webs and beside the predictictable right wing sites most of what I've seen so far is 'yeah so Trump says Bill Clinton, affairs, Hillary bad blah blah..sooooo yeah.... lets talk about Trump now ...."

The dumbnitude level of his campaign is red lining.
posted by Jalliah at 7:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


It just seems like such an odd sentence

It's a very familiar sentiment to me from Brexit, where people said - 'oh, we know it'll probably tank the economy and set the country back for a generation and all that bad stuff, but we've been shafted already, so as long as it STOPS THE IMMIGRANTS that's all that matters. I'm not a racist, but we have to keep them out.'

It's an ugly, ugly thing, and when Trump said he'll be called Mr Brexit, that's what he means. The 'What have you got to lose?' line is an enabler, here.

.
posted by Devonian at 7:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


>> Heh, Evan McMullin is out-polling Jill Stein in the latest PPP poll.

> I don't know what's funnier: that, or the fact that good old Eggs McMuffin has replaced Harambe and Deez Nuts as PPP's go-to joke candidate.

(Or is Stein the Deez Nuts of the new poll?)


Deez Nuts' platform is saner than Johnson's. And he's a 15-year old.
posted by farlukar at 7:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


@mattmfm: "There have now been 100 national polls since May (4-way race)

Number of Trump leads: 9
Number of ties: 4
Number of Clinton leads: 87"


9 of the 13 Trump leads/ties have been Fox, Rasmussen, Gravis (Breitbart) or the crazy LAT/USC tracking poll.
posted by chris24 at 7:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump naming himself "Mr. Brexit" is perhaps the only cogent analysis of himself that he's ever uttered. It completely encapsulates the concept of a politician whose only viable rise to power involves a bunch of uninformed voters buying a pack of completely obvious lies and racism, and who, if elected, those same voters will largely then flip out and be like "but, but, we didn't really mean it, it was a protest vote, we didn't think this had real consequences..."
posted by tocts at 7:51 AM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


Trump is Draco Malfoy if he didn't re-evaluate his life and grow up to be a better person.

Surely he's Lucius Malfoy at best. No one is forcing him to throw in his lot with racists, and he seems to be doing it partly because of sociopathic levels of personal ambition and partly because of genuine racist convictions of his own. I won't compare him to Voldemort, because I don't think he has the intelligence and focus of a Tom Riddle, but I feel the Draco analogy is too flattering.
posted by Aravis76 at 7:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump is Draco Malfoy if he didn't re-evaluate his life and grow up to be a better person.

Not to blatantly self promote or anything, but Trump is Voldemort. I've been on the bleeding edge of this research for some time. Please spread the word, we all saw what happened in The Cursed Child's darkest timeline.


posted by phunniemee at 7:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


It just seems like such an odd sentence, "We don't care if he's planning on selling out the US to Russian interests or loot the economy like Goering in WW2 as long as he builds a largely pointless symbol in the desert southwest to stop Brown people from coming!"

These assholes hate the US as it's presently constituted and hate the US government. Indeed many of them hate the idea of any government at all beyond the reach of their guns. The possibility that President Trump might wreck the country is a feature not a bug. And "the wall" is as much as anything a gesture which promises that maybe Trump is one of them, maybe he hates the Zionist Occupied Government, too!
posted by octobersurprise at 8:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Whose wand do I have to rub to get a separate thread whose sole purpose is to cast every actor in this election as someone from Harry Potter?
posted by Tevin at 8:12 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]




Megyn Kelly Roasts Trump’s Campaign Manager for Claiming He Doesn’t Make Sexist Comments

"While Conway said Trump deserves plaudits for not mentioning “rough stuff” about Clinton during the debates, given that she runs negative ads against him, The Kelly File host fixed her with her best you’ve gotta be fucking kidding me expression.

“Kellyanne, come on. It’s not nice? They are running for president,” Kelly said. “The ads she’s running about him when it comes to his comments on women use his words, Kellyanne.”

While Conway tried to steer the conversation back to Clinton’s record, Kelly, who knows the extent of Trump’s misogyny firsthand, wasn’t having any of it. “You raised the question, he made a couple of comments over 25 years,” said Kelly. “You know that’s not true. You know he has repeatedly made comments about women, about their looks, their size, their weight, even in this campaign, talking about Carly Fiorina’s face, retweeting a negative picture of Heidi Cruz’s face, criticizing Hillary Clinton in her look — Kellyanne, this is an issue for him, is it not?”"
posted by chris24 at 8:12 AM on September 29, 2016 [93 favorites]


The BoBers on my Facebook feed are circulating some nonsense about Bernie Sanders potentially winning the presidency if enough Vermonters write him in and he wins 3 electoral votes and then nobody makes it to 270 and then the House picks Bernie and not Trump as president because obviously.

I am so out of evens. So out of evens. In the face of an actual fascist (THAT PAUL RYAN ENDORSED) they'd rather gamble it all on nonsense. Fuck this election.
posted by lydhre at 8:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [48 favorites]


Hillary was 'given' the questions in advance. So was Trump. They're the same questions everyone has been talking about forever. The fact that Trump, unlike Hillary, is too stupid to predict 99% of what they were going to be asked is not something to crow about. It's a disqualification.
posted by ctmf at 8:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


... I mean, and that's what reporters should meet that idiotic statement with. "Like, which question? Trump didn't know they would ask him which question?"
posted by ctmf at 8:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


It's important to remember that even if one or two people on a web forum say something, that doesn't mean a significant number of people endorse that idea. Also, people may think something sounds "OK" or "interesting" at one time, but then reflect and conclude that another idea is better later.

This is one really important distinction between the candidates: one assumes that people are easily manipulated, mainly self interested, simple actors who base their actions primarily on greed and disgust. Understanding that people are a little more complicated and that they do try to figure out what's really smartest and helpful -- even if they feel unable to actually do meaningful things -- is key to moving forward.
posted by amtho at 8:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


> “The ads she’s running about him when it comes to his comments on women use his words, Kellyanne.”

That moment when the bullshit you're peddling is a manure bucket too far even for Fox News.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Oh, for crying out loud! If memory serves me correctly, Holt disclaimed at the very beginning of the debate that both candidates were aware of the three general topics in advance, but neither one knew the actual questions he'd prepared.

Not that it'd be hard for an even marginally prepared candidate to guess. It's like seeing someone who failed a test -- and make no mistake, these Republican complaints tacitly concede the fact that Trump lost -- complaining that the person who actually studied only passed because she must have cheated. Welcome to downtown Lames-ville, Trump people; population: you.
posted by Gelatin at 8:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yes, neither candidate had any knowledge of questions.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


But only one candidate had no knowledge of the answers.
posted by snofoam at 8:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [142 favorites]


The BoBers on my Facebook feed are circulating some nonsense about Bernie Sanders potentially winning the presidency if enough Vermonters write him in and he wins 3 electoral votes and then nobody makes it to 270 and then the House picks Bernie and not Trump as president because obviously.

I'm the office manager of a small church and occasionally we get letters that espouse some batshit theory about Biblical codes or numerology or some such thing. However, recently we received one that detailed a cunning plan where everyone was to write in "God" on their ballots, and if everyone did so, God would return and presumably everything would be hunky-dory.

I believe these two plans are equally valid and I'm an atheist.
posted by altopower at 8:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]


>> CNN is reporting that Trump has been yelling at his underlings for refusing to acknowledge what an amazing job he did at the debate. Sounds like he's going into full-on Hitler-with-funny-subtitles mode.

> How is there not a debate Downfall parody already?

Edit together The Apprentice footage and dub the Downfall audio over it?
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


My driver this morning was a (black male) Bernie or Buster.

I'm now sitting at my desk, eating essentially the equivalent of a four-inch wide Reese's cup with real chocolate and macadamias replacing the peanut butter.

THIS IS NOT A COINCIDENCE.

(We talked about how he agrees that Trump is willfully ignorant, and a fool, and doesn't care about women's rights at all, and that Hillary has incorporated large portions of Bernie's platform, and that Bernie has been in politics a long time so it's not like he is an outsider, BUT THE GUY WAS STILL REFUSING TO VOTE FOR HILLARY BECAUSE SOMETHING SOMETHING VOTES DEVALUED. WE ARE IN A MAJOR FREAKIN' SWING STATE AHHHHHHHHH.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


Note to self: see if the town hall debate questions include "Are you a good loser?"
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump fundraising record not all it appears

While the GOP nominee raised big money after debate, he may not be able to use much of it.

Donald Trump’s campaign was desperate to change the subject after his shaky debate performance on Monday, and it found just the story to do it — a record fundraising surge that Trump says was powered by small donors, proving he actually got a boost from the debate.

But a closer examination of the claims around Trump’s fundraising surge — which the campaign says yielded $18 million in the 24 hours after the debate through online donations and a big-donor phone bank — suggests the haul might not be quite as significant to Trump as he and his campaign have made it out to be.

Based on the information voluntarily released by the campaign, it’s unclear how much of the windfall will go to campaign versus the Republican National Committee, or how much of the total came in pledges as opposed to actual cash. Nor is it clear how much came from the small donors about whom Trump boasts.

posted by Jalliah at 8:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


NYT: Split Over Donald Trump and Cut Off by Culture Wars, Evangelicals Despair

“My hope is not ultimately in the government,” [Iowa pastor Ryan Jorgenson] said. “I am not of this world. Jesus is going to come back. He’s going to bring the perfect government. Until then, we live in a world of sin.”

Take it from an atheist, Mr. Jorgenson - if Jesus comes back, your bigoted ass will be in line for a kicking. I guess you can take comfort in the fact that it'll be a long line, and it'll take him a while to get to you and your petty bullshit.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


These assholes hate the US as it's presently constituted and hate the US government. Indeed many of them hate the idea of any government at all beyond the reach of their guns. The possibility that President Trump might wreck the country is a feature not a bug. And "the wall" is as much as anything a gesture which promises that maybe Trump is one of them, maybe he hates the Zionist Occupied Government, too!

They have access to the same statistics we do, which show that in a few decades America will not be a majority-white country. They think they can and should prevent this from happening, and that mass deportations are the way to do it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


the equivalent of a four-inch wide Reese's cup with real chocolate and macadamias replacing the peanut butter.


I competely get your frustration but am distracted by your snack.
posted by zutalors! at 8:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [51 favorites]


In today's episode of Stupid Stuff a Trump Son Says:

Eric Trump: Bill Clinton Is “Maybe The Worst” Sexist “That’s Ever Lived”
posted by chris24 at 8:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


NYT: Split Over Donald Trump and Cut Off by Culture Wars, Evangelicals Despair

“It all flipped, so fast,” said Mr. Odgaard, a patrician 70-year-old who favors khakis and boat shoes. “Suddenly, we were in the minority. That was kind of a scary feeling."

Oh word? Being in the minority is scary? You don't say.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [104 favorites]


If they think their winning strategy is to go after the guy who had an approval rating over 60% at the end of his term, right after all the scandals they're bringing up again, they can go right ahead.
posted by LionIndex at 8:40 AM on September 29, 2016


The thing is, my parents are evangelical Christians and have gone whole-hog for trump. My dad posted an article from a Christian website to Facebook, saying if you don't vote the right way you can look forward to the destruction of the church and everything you hold dear. So, apparently, the most godly candidate is the guy who has had three wives, doesn't believe in God, and never goes to church? Ok, I guess.

Meanwhile, Clinton is an actual religious Christian, whose adherence to her beliefs pre-date her political career. But because she deliberately doesn't evangelize or even talk about her faith unless she's asked, a casual observer might not be aware of that.
posted by zarq at 8:41 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


everyone was to write in "God" on their ballots, and if everyone did so, God would return

This actually does work! But everyone has to do it, like God can't come back with 55% of the vote, it needs to be a full 100%. So we start with the evangelicals and just keep building from there, and maybe this'll be God's year! Best of luck to you, God


My favorite part of this is that basically it means that God has to come back and be president.
posted by altopower at 8:41 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Eric Trump: Bill Clinton Is “Maybe The Worst” Sexist “That’s Ever Lived”

These people with their superlatives, man. It's kind of fascinating.
posted by palomar at 8:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


like God can't come back with 55% of the vote, it needs to be a full 100%.

Can you imagine being the one guy that didn't vote for God or maybe spelled it wrong? How embarrassing.
posted by gordie at 8:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I hope the townhall focuses on each candidate's stamina. There can be feats of strength and airing of grievances. Festivus would come early this year.
posted by mazola at 8:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


In today's episode of Stupid Stuff a Trump Son Says:

For all the "racehorse theory" stuff, Wastrel Twilight Extra Eric looks like a horse and lacks the basic intelligence of a horse. Nurture at work there.
posted by holgate at 8:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I would genuinely like to see God's birth certificate, mind.
posted by Devonian at 8:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]


Take it from an atheist, Mr. Jorgenson - if Jesus comes back, your bigoted ass will be in line for a kicking. I guess you can take comfort in the fact that it'll be a long line, and it'll take him a while to get to you and your petty bullshit.

I have this occasional dream of Jesus coming back and doing the right wing talk show circuit, where it's just like an ongoing montage of the moneychangers being kicked out of the temple. Like, I've become pretty agnostic as I've aged, but man I wouldn't mind getting the proof I need via that method.
posted by nubs at 8:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


I believe that people who are afraid of finding themselves in the minority feel that way because they know they have participated in abuses of their majority power and expect the same treatment once the tables turn. Look at the cartoons reacting to women's suffrage (depicting men forced to... cook and clean while women put their feet up). Look at how terrified white men are of (imagined, imaginary) black violence, a distorted mirror of the violence constantly inflicted on black people by those in power. It's classic projection. Everything they say about the awful things that will happen if "they" take over comes from their knowledge of the things they themselves are doing now.
posted by prefpara at 8:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [66 favorites]


I would genuinely like to see God's birth certificate, mind.

It's OK, David Bowie assures me that God is an American.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:48 AM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


Priceless.

Marco Rubio 'Deeply Concerned' About Possible Donald Trump Cuba Business

"Florida Sen. Marco Rubio said Donald Trump will have to “answer some questions” about a Newsweek story reporting that a Trump-owned company allegedly violated the United States' trade embargo with Cuba in the late 1990s.

“This is something they’re gonna have to give a response to. I mean, it was a violation of American law, if that’s how it happened,” Rubio said on the ESPN/ABC “Capital Games” podcast."
posted by chris24 at 8:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Just saw this wonderful foray into crazy religious logic on family member's feed. I can't even...

Highlights:

As a pastor, I would rather deal with a church attendee who is blatant and brash in his sinning than one who is devious, lying, cunning and deceptive. Both are problematic, but one is easier to deal with than the other. If I were a pastor bringing correction to a parishioner, I would prefer dealing with a "Trump-type" any day over a "Hillary-type."

What the hell? I can't...

When my (late) wife's remarkable and much loved oncologist said, "Don't take Carol to that alternative (non FDA approved) treatment." I asked, "Why not?" He said, "The unknown." I said, "Doctor, your 'known' is much worse than the alternative treatment's 'unknown.'" I took her to that alternative treatment. One year later that same oncologist went to the alternative treatment doctor to see how it was that Carol had improved so much. While this alternative treatment did not ultimately save her life, it likely stretched two to three years of life to six years of life—by the admission of another one of her brilliant young oncologists who later said, "Without any medical training or scientific fact, you have put together a protocol of treatment that has moved her into the top fraction of 1 percent of survival rates of all patients with Carol's particular cancer. Application of the analogy: Hillary's "known" is considerably worse—many times over—than Trump's "unknown."

So, alt-medicine logic. Ok, 'dis gonna be good.

Trump is slowly being surrounded by increasingly good people.

Of course he is.

Trump is right on approximately 75 percent of the issues. I wish it was 100 percent. It is not. I am in hopes that those beginning to surround him can help him connect the dots on more issues. Hillary is wrong on 100 percent of the issues.

C'mon, she's worse than a stopped clock? Damn, I better re-evaluate things... oh wait, nevermind.

I best just stop, the list goes on and on and I have actual things that matter to look into today, can't get into another pissing match with family just now, much though I feel like I should...
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy: NYT: I Muted Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton During the Debate. I Still Knew the Score.

Related: Donald Trump’s strange speaking style, as explained by linguists (Vox, Sep 26, 2016)

1- Trump’s speeches make more sense when you see him talking, as he uses a lot of gestures to aid in speaking;
2- They can be appealing because he uses a lot of salesmen’s tricks;
3- Trump plays to people's emotions, so people "understand" him on an emotional level.

And to close it out:
"Leadership is hard; it needs discipline, concentration, and an ability to ignore what's irrelevant or needless or personal or silly," Geoffrey Pullum, a linguist at University of Edinburgh, says. "There is no sign of it from Trump. This man talks honestly enough that you can see what he's like: He's an undisciplined narcissist who craves power but doesn't have the intellectual capacity to exercise it wisely."
posted by filthy light thief at 8:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


If they think their winning strategy is to go after the guy who had an approval rating over 60% at the end of his term, right after all the scandals they're bringing up again, they can go right ahead.

But would the approval carry over, 17 years later? A bunch of people voting in this election were toddlers or in Kindergarten during 9/11. The only Presidents they remember living under are Bush and Obama. Their most recent impressions of the Clinton years may be that Hillary used to be a First Lady who once made a racist superpredators comment about African Americans.
posted by zarq at 8:51 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whoever runs against him in 2020 is gonna have millennia of great oppo research to use. Imagine trying to defend your record on Sodom and Gomorrah, or the Flood. That's bound to hurt him in swing states.

Yeah, but he's going to have 4 years of miracles under his belt by then. Economy? Saved! Illegal Immigration? Solved! World Peace? Achieved! Plus, the stamina - forget about it. What other candidate could do 200 simultaneous Town Halls while at a State Dinner.
posted by nubs at 8:51 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hey corb- if you're up to talking about it, how do you feel about Cruz's recent semi-endorsement? I couldn't believe he did that after already betting so much of his career on being the one dude who didn't bend the knee.

Oh god. Yeah - it's been a week, and I'm still furiously angry about it. I suppose some of it is my own fault - even though intellectually, I know that I and others were working at him to get to that "Vote Your Conscience" stance, when I was actually on the floor, hearing him give that speech despite the boos, standing firm - it really made me feel like it was real, like he was real, like maybe things could be okay and some prominent people could stand against the tide even if it meant burning down their political future. For a little while, part of me loved Ted Cruz.

And then he lost a bit of his base, and suddenly his Senate run was looking a little murky, and he was losing donors, and Reince Priebus threatened him, and he's like "well okay maybe Trump is fine." And I'm like - really? You fucker. I was defending you against charges that you were all cynical lizard suit, your people were defending you despite getting a lot of shit for it, and it turns out they were right all along and you'll do whatever you think is in your best interest?

Now, I think his best interest calculation - which was stupid - was seeing Trump rise in the polls until he was closer to even with Clinton, and he was worried - I have heard this worry from the crowds he runs with for months - that if Trump could win without the religious right, the religious right's hold on the party would be finished. I think he (wrongly) believed that he could deliver the rest of the religious right, and it would propel Trump to victory, and the Republican Powers-That-Be would understand that it was his power and his base that did it, and he would be more firmly ensconced in a powerful place in the party.

That said, it's cowardice and self serving bullshit when the barbarians are at the gates, and I will never forgive him. He's going on a long list of politicians I will never donate to or campaign for.
posted by corb at 8:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [110 favorites]


1- Trump’s speeches make more sense when you see him talking, as he uses a lot of gestures to aid in speaking

When I went back and looked at a transcript of the debate, this REALLY jumped out at me. I already knew he had been rambly and off-topic, but I hadn't realized just how few, like, SENTENCES he actually used.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


So hey, we're at 3700 comments. The VP debate isn't until Tuesday. Maybe it's time for a new thread?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


My more dedicated Harry Potter fandom friends seem to be converging on Trump as either Lucious Malfoy or Gilderoy Lockhart.
He's not smart enough to be Voldemort.
posted by Superplin at 8:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


The fact that Trump, unlike Hillary, is too stupid to predict 99% of what they were going to be asked is not something to crow about. It's a disqualification.

Not only were the debate questions entirely predictable, but so, to an extraordinary degree, were Clinton's own attacks. There were maybe two things which she did that could catch a reasonably prepared antagonist by surprise: the Machado reveal and calling him by his first name all the time. Everything else she did was, er, pretty much what any halfway decent campaign strategist would expect her to do. Hit him on birtherism, taxes, temperment, and a selection from his enormous collection of problematic tweets (I might not have predicted climate change specifically, but, y'know, something along those lines).

So if Trump was unprepared it was his own damn fault and the fault of his team. Very little that happened to him that evening was unpredictable.
posted by jackbishop at 8:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]




So hey, we're at 3700 comments. The VP debate isn't until Tuesday. Maybe it's time for a new thread?

Yes please. It's at the point where some will find it hard to read let alone participate and there is still 4 days to go.
My decent laptop is starting to slow now and mobile is pretty much useless.
posted by Jalliah at 8:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


But would the approval carry over, 17 years later? A bunch of people voting in this election were toddlers or in Kindergarten during 9/11. The only Presidents they remember living under are Bush and Obama. Their most recent impressions of the Clinton years may be that Hillary used to be a First Lady who once made a racist superpredators comment about African Americans.

I think people my age and older are way over it, and after W, Clinton's probably only gained in admiration. I'd think younger people wouldn't really care at all about Bill's escapades, alleged or real, especially in comparison with Trump's outright degradation of women. It's basically the same thing as what Trump did during the debate - doubling down on his base and not expanding his appeal at all, possibly even alienating people.
posted by LionIndex at 9:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


JEB BUSH: please clap
GARY JOHNSON: [starin at hands uncertainly] i dont-- look, i gotta tell you, im drawin a blank here


More like "Wow, man. Have you ever looked at your hands? I mean, really looked at them?"
posted by octobersurprise at 9:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


On of my pet peeves is the use of the word "pundit" for any bloviating jerkwad with a twitter handle. It comes from the Hindu word for an esteemed teacher and scholar and its use in US media is as usual a little submerged racist note of mockery of the earned status of pandit. "Guru" is another now-deprecated example of the phenomenon.

And for the love of God someone take the pathetically (albeit Indo-European spanning) calc of "punditocracy" out back and drown it already.

The sole qualificational definition of "pundit" seems to be "appears on TV sometimes in a cheap suit."
posted by spitbull at 9:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Delicious: ... aides told Trump's surrogates to cast the debate as a success in which the candidate cemented his status as a political outsider.

Trump campaign spokesman Jason Miller denied that Trump's team told his supporters anything of the sort. "The entire description of today's call is completely false and anybody saying otherwise is just making it up."


My first question is, of course, if Jason Miller is even real.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Gary Johnson admits to smoking marijuana, but is unsure why they call it "dope" [real]
posted by humanfont at 9:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


I can make one up on my lunch hour, which starts in about 20 minutes, if no one else already has something started.

Warning, though, I don't know Hamilton -- does that disqualify me?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Tech industry pundits rarely own suits, even cheap ones.
posted by Devonian at 9:09 AM on September 29, 2016



Have other presidential campaigns been so leaky? I understand the practice of strategic leaks but Trump's don't seem that way at all even with Trump's razor considered. For example Acosta got a copy of their talking points document. I know from a couple of campaigns I've worked on those are really guarded. And here a reporter gets them all? Is that normal?
posted by Jalliah at 9:11 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


These people don't deserve credit for disowning Trump unless they take some ownership of how we got here too

So, this is something I've actually been mulling over a lot lately, and I think it's at least partially right.

While a lot of conservatives - including myself - tend to define racism by intent rather than impact, it would be wrong to say that even by our own standards, we were unaware that these people existed in the party. And even if we didn't realize how deep the iceberg went - we thought they were isolated and not influential and irrelevant on a large scale - we were wrong not to correct them even within their own worldview, which is a place I think we could have had a lot of influence.

I'll give you an example that was not my finest moment. I was involved, several years ago, with the Young Republicans, in campaigning in a state outside my own. The (NY)YRs that I was there with were not racist - they were talking about policies and their importance, and it was clear their opposition to Obama was principled.

But there was one guy, I remember, a local to the state we were going to, who said something that was horrifically racist about a black man in the White House. I don't remember exactly what it was, just my horror. I was frozen by how terrible it was, so it must have been something obscene. And the right thing for me to do in that instance would have been to say something to make it clear that wasn't acceptable. Even in a Republican way - like, I could have said something mealy like "There are ladies and children present", to make it clear it was just gross and inappropriate. I could have said "We are the party of Lincoln", or half a hundred things without using a bit of liberal language. But instead I thought, "Ugh, what a goddamned bottom-feeder, I really hate how elections draw the crazies out", and I just turned my body away from him, as though by ignoring him he could be made to not exist. And I passed the opportunity by - like a lot of us passed the opportunities by.

I think a lot of influential conservatives did the same thing - thinking, "all the people I talk to are sane and principled, there are only a few bottom-feeders, no need to deal with them since they're not a coherent wing". But then suddenly they are, and by the time they're a wing, it turns out those isolated bottom feeders aren't actually that isolated after all, they're a whole movement, and it's holding your party hostage.

Now, I still think the people demanding that people talk about this in order to disown Trump and be welcome this year voting for Clinton are wrong - both tactically and morally. I think more room for people with different views at the table would equal a lot more Republicans voting for Clinton instead of wiffling about McMullin. I think a lot of their ideas about how all Republican candidates have been racist are just offensive. But I would be wrong if I didn't acknowledge that their charges have at least some truth.
posted by corb at 9:12 AM on September 29, 2016 [84 favorites]


It's OK, David Bowie assures me that God is an American.

a Young American
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Also all you stoners for Johnson listen up and watch this dude. He's giving the idea of high functioning recreational users a real black eye.

Counterpoint: Willie Nelson.
posted by spitbull at 9:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Meanwhile, Clinton is an actual religious Christian, whose adherence to her beliefs pre-date her political career. But because she deliberately doesn't evangelize or even talk about her faith unless she's asked, a casual observer might not be aware of that.

I seem to recall someone had a strong opinion on the matter. Oh, yeah:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
I am astonished that two serial adulterers imagine criticizing someone who is still in her first marriage after so many years is at all persuasive. But it isn't about persuasion, is it?

I know "jackass says outrageous thing" is all the rage on clickbait news sites these days, but at some point, maybe the media could realize it has no obligation to amplify the Trump campaign's personal attacks.
posted by Gelatin at 9:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Warning, though, I don't know Hamilton -- does that disqualify me?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:09 AM on September 29 [+] [!]


I don't think it's required, but it would be nice to have Hamilton on your side.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


As someone said on the Twitters, for someone whose only supposed qualification is from business, it's pretty remarkable how vague a sense there is of what Trump's business actually is, especially in recent years when it's been much more of a branding operation with a combination of foreign property and infomercial-grade shit. You could take issue with Romney and his leveraged buyouts, but you actually had people talking about what leveraged buyouts were.
posted by holgate at 9:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Title suggestions then plz
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:21 AM on September 29, 2016


er ugh read it wrong...ignore pls
posted by Jalliah at 9:22 AM on September 29, 2016


What does technology access have to do with using Hamilton quotes for thread titles?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:24 AM on September 29, 2016


Not surprising of course, but the porn stuff Daily Caller was pushing is BS.

If anyone didn't click through, you miss this gem of a "correction":
The article features the correction, “The star of Apprentass 4 was Angel Dark, not Alicia Machado.” While the correction is nonspecific, it appears that the Caller based the entire premise of their claim that Machado is a “porn star” on the incorrect belief that she was featured in that film. According to The Daily Beast, which reported on conservatives’ smear effort against Machado, “there does not appear to be any evidence suggesting the existence of professionally made pornography starring Machado.”

While the article no longer cites an example of her appearing in an adult film, it still baselessly claims that Machado made an “appearance in porn” and has a “background in pornography.”
I put "correction" in scare-quotes because they're still clinging to the idea that a topless appearance in Playboy is a "background in pornography." Snopes has a perhaps-not-safe-for-work summary of the claims, including censored images of the porn star Machado allegedly resembles (and, seriously, WTF, do these people even have functioning eyes?)
posted by tonycpsu at 9:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yet another instance of Trump profiting off a charity he never gave to:

"His foundation, which has not included any of his own money since 2008, has given the hospital $350,000 since 2010.

Yet Trump himself may have profited from the relationship: The hospital has paid Trump’s private club up to $150,000 a year since 2011, and once before in 2008, to host the fundraising gala."
posted by chris24 at 9:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ugggg I keep on running into pro Johnson videos on Facebook and have to keep showing these normally left-wing people why he's a terrible idea. It's getting tedious, I should save my complaints to repost on future instances of the video. I need a better resource for "here's what wrong with Johnson and the Libertarian party in general.
posted by Twain Device at 9:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


altopower: "My favorite part of this is that basically it means that God has to come back and be president."

Too bad he'll be term limited.
posted by Mitheral at 9:27 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think YCTAB was referring to Hamilton titles not being required, but I agree that letting threads get unwieldy is exclusionary and unfair.

I suggest that perhaps it's time to start including "[Election 2016]" in election thread titles, to be easier to find for those not versed in Hamilton.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


Hamilton title suggestions:

"Every action has an equal opposite reaction"
"Is there anything you wouldn't do?"
posted by corb at 9:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also all you stoners for Johnson listen up and watch this dude. He's giving the idea of high functioning recreational users a real black eye.

You know, he's been a busy man lately. Maybe he just hasn't been able to get stoned enough.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Corb, I appreciate that thoughtful reflection. That said, during my lifetime (47) the Republican M.O. has been to badmouth "political correctness" while demanding absolute unity among their ranks. The Tea Party should have been enough to give any actual patriot pause and you see how that turned out. I for one am enjoying watching the Republican Party implode. I think the white supremacy garbage has to come into the open to be effectively fought. Let Duke and his ilk feel briefly emboldened. There's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right with America. They are going down.
posted by Sublimity at 9:31 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


"You must be out of your goddamned mind!"
"Sit down, John, you fat motherfucker"
I may not be in the right frame of mind to suggest Hamilton thread titles right now
posted by Superplin at 9:31 AM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


I suggest that perhaps it's time to start including "[Election 2016]" in election thread titles, to be easier to find for those not versed in Hamilton.

Yeah, I have no knowledge whatsoever of Hamilton and I've only been able to follow along by looking for new thread links at the end of megathreads.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


If we're hanging the new thread on Trump's Cuban embargo violation,

"Corruption's such an old song that we can sing along in harmony"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Another vote for the Hamilton stuff to be irrelevant and too precious.
posted by Sublimity at 9:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


Has "Let’s take a stand with the stamina God has granted us" been taken?
posted by whuppy at 9:35 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


My vote for a new thread title would be something easier to remember than a random line from a musical I've never seen. But I'm not in a swing state, so I don't think my vote counts.
posted by miguelcervantes at 9:35 AM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


I think it's pretty telling that my mom, an ideological conservative born and raised in Orange County, broke up with the Republicans several presidential election cycles ago. She saw the Christo-fascist, racist, misogynist writing on the wall and gave out her last evens back in like GWB-era and re-registered Independent. She hasn't been voting for Democrats, mind you, but she saw pretty clearly how the Southern Strategy was eating the Republican party whole, even if she couldn't articulate it as such.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, maybe let's move the meta conversation over to Metatalk rather than making this thread longer with comments about long threads.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


JEB BUSH: please clap
GARY JOHNSON: [starin at hands uncertainly] i dont-- look, i gotta tell you, im drawin a blank here


RICK PERRY: Oops.
posted by Gelatin at 9:39 AM on September 29, 2016


Stein attempts to mock Johnson after foreign leader gaffe

"Green Party presidential nominee Jill Stein on Thursday appeared to mock Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson by naming in a series of tweets some of her own favorite leaders...

The Green Party nominee's list, however, did not include the names of foreign leaders who actually have held the top position in their respective countries."

Too perfect. 'Oh, you mean leader leaders?'
posted by chris24 at 9:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]




Can you imagine being the one guy that didn't vote for God or maybe spelled it wrong? How embarrassing.

Yeah! What if you put "G-d"? Does that count? That should count. Also YHWH. I would be inclined to accept HE WHO IS. But... yeah I see your point about the misspellings.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 9:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


That derogatory 400 lb hacker remark was our tipping point BTW

Man, now I want to delay the election, just to see if he can offend literally every possible demographic or interest group to the point that he gets zero votes.
posted by Etrigan at 9:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


While a lot of conservatives - including myself - tend to define racism by intent rather than impact, it would be wrong to say that even by our own standards, we were unaware that these people existed in the party.

Isquith isn't just talking about people letting things happen, though, and really neither am I. We're talking about the fact that even among NeverTrumpers, the stuff that these so-called "bottom feeders" spout has taken hold.

First and foremost among these is the idea that Obama is the "other," where even if they're not birthers, they come up with ridiculous exagerations about Obama being "socialist" or "bringing socialism" to the US by urging programs that aren't even close to the Social Democratic programs in other countries. Or that by talking about his race and how it has affected him and continues to affect him. A prime example is the defensiveness and straight-up outrage when he talked about seeing Trayvon Martin in a hypothetical son of his own. This was somehow seen as an attack aimed at splitting the country rather than a frank assessment of how race works in this country.

And then there's the absolutely vile stuff that conservatism as a whole has been behind. The idea that Shelby v Holder was a good idea because systemic voter fraud is real and race- or class- or ideology-based voter suppression is not. And of course, any time the expansion of the vote is mentioned, there's some lie about how troops or the elderly or someone else is somehow losing their privileges. There's also the defense of the various Confederate flags and monuments as symbols of honor that are also laudable pokes in the eyes of overwrought liberals. Or the arguments that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, but it was the fault of Democrats anyway, which makes the current Democrats the actual racists. The apologia for the sovereign citizen and militia movements and their ilk, which have become ever more violent and bigoted. The perpetuation of the myth of "welfare queens" and claims of fraud that don't pan out to kill the social safety nets. The vilification of immigration as being the fault of the people immigrating rather than the policies of greedy people here and decades of US intervention that conservatives wholeheartedly supported. The ever more dangerous language even so-called "moderate" anti-choicers are using, and the violence it has fomented. The rallying cries about "states rights" on everything from clean water to basic human rights. The use of terms like "PC" and "SJW," and tactics concerning "religious freedom" and bathroom panics to claim violation of civil rights by the exact same people who are dedicated to violating the civil rights of others.

These aren't just the bottom-feeders, this is almost an entire ideology and attendant political party. And it's not just allowing the bottom feeders to thrive, it's the enabling of them that's truly horrible.

I think a lot of their ideas about how all Republican candidates have been racist are just offensive.

No one said they've been just racist, but every single one of them has matched or even exceeded Trump on issues. Cruz attends meetings with people advocating for the genocide of LGBTQ people. Rubio considers every single mosque a terrorist breeding ground and every worshiper a potential terrorist, which means their 1A rights are null and void. Fiorina actually lured children on a field trip to be props in an anti-choice campaign whose words were echoed by a murderer. Kasich runs perhaps the most anti-woman executive branch in the US. The list goes on and on. And the idea that pointing any or all of that out is somehow offensive is part of the problem.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [69 favorites]


I could have said 'We are the party of Lincoln'

Sorry, not since 1964. You're the Party of Trump now.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Or maybe the Know Nothings. Lincoln:
I am not a Know-Nothing – that is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equals, except negroes and foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to that I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [52 favorites]


> Split Over Donald Trump and Cut Off by Culture Wars, Evangelicals Despair

The photo of the top of the article is great. It's like they're looking into the future and don't like what they see coming. Well, too bad.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah! What if you put "G-d"? Does that count? That should count. Also YHWH.

Don't blame me, I wrote in Clapton.
posted by Roommate at 9:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


If we're hanging the new thread on Trump's Cuban embargo violation,

"Corruption's such an old song that we can sing along in harmony"


If on the VP debate,

"Send in your seconds, see if they can set the record straight"
posted by nubs at 9:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


While a lot of conservatives - including myself - tend to define racism by intent rather than impact

This idea always seems so obviously wrong to me. I know that it's because I'm a banker working in regulatory compliance. When there is something that's not intended to be racist but it ends up having racist effects, it's called, "Disparate impact" and comes with fines just like it's more overt cousin "disparate treatment".

Policies with racist effects are racist. People that support policies known to have racist outcomes are supporting racism in our institutions. That's pretty much the definition of racist.

Intent counts for shit.
posted by VTX at 9:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [83 favorites]


Green Party presidential nominee Jill Stein on Thursday appeared to mock Libertarian nominee Gary Johnson by naming in a series of tweets some of her own favorite leaders..

1. Vladimir Putin
2. Putin, Vladimir
3. Vlad P.
4. ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Vlad!!! ♥♥♥♥♥
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Mod note: Couple deleted; thread-titling stuff please should go to MetaTalk.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fiorina actually lured children on a field trip to be props in an anti-choice campaign whose words were echoed by a murderer.

I had to look this one up. She brought a class of preschoolers into an anti-choice rally. Good lord.
posted by zarq at 10:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


The thing is, my parents are evangelical Christians and have gone whole-hog for trump. My dad posted an article from a Christian website to Facebook, saying if you don't vote the right way you can look forward to the destruction of the church and everything you hold dear. So, apparently, the most godly candidate is the guy who has had three wives, doesn't believe in God, and never goes to church? Ok, I guess.

This election has been great for identifying which conservative pundits actually have intellectual integrity and which ones are bankrupt shills for whoever is the republican candidate.


One thing I hate about this election is it's making me say things like "I thought this thing by Erick Erickson was good", but...

I thought this thing by Erick Erickson was good on being NeverTrump in the face of a 'religious crisis'.
Christians looking for a strong man to protect the church instead of the strongest man who conquered death is a terrible thing to see. Many Christian leaders are engaging in a kind of syncretism, trying to blend patriotism with Christianity. They seemingly argue that if the nation falls, the church falls and for the church to rise the country must rise. But Christ has already risen so the true church is in no danger of falling. The gates of hell shall not prevail.

Seeing men like Wayne Grudem and others beclown themselves trying to justify support of a man like Trump makes me weep for the shallow faith of a church more wrapped up in its Americanness than its godliness. I have to say I was truly blown away by having a Christian sit next to me on Friday and argue that we should support an immoral adulterer who had never asked for forgiveness because of what he might do for Christians.

...

That I see so many Christians justifying Trump’s immorality, defining deviancy down, and turning to anger and despondency about the future tells me I cannot in good faith support Trump because his victory would have lasting, damaging consequences for Christianity in America. We harm our witness by embracing the immoral, unrepentant strong man. We harm our American virtue by buying into the idea that one man can make America great again. Further, we risk losing Donald Trump’s soul for the sake of our selfishness.
posted by DynamiteToast at 10:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [32 favorites]


Josh Marshall's use of the term "technical debt" here is valuable, because it points to how the establishment GOP got into a cycle of making promises to its fringe and having to keep raising the stakes, starting with McConnell's "one term president". This was motivated in part by primary challenges but also by elections like 2010 where dozens of far-right GOPers won semi-unexpectedly.

If Clinton wins, there's going to be a reckoning for the GOP that will have to address just how many state and local party orgs (and elected officials) have already gone over from Fox News conservatism to Breitbart/Infowars shit. It's hard to roll that back and become a Chamber of Commerce-type party again.
posted by holgate at 10:10 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


While a lot of conservatives - including myself - tend to define racism by intent rather than impact

The other day, NPR aired an excerpt from an interview Studs Terkel did for his book Working. The interview was with a female ad executive, one of the few in the entire industry in 1972. And the sexism she relates encountering is astounding.

Now, did those men -- the ones who would direct the answer to questions she asked to her male colleague, for example -- wake up in the morning intending to be sexist? Well, maybe, but regardless of their intent, their sexism had a real impact on her.

Intent matters -- it's the difference between manslaughter and Murder One, after all -- but let's remember that both those categories recognize that a real offense has been committed.
posted by Gelatin at 10:12 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


> Intent counts for shit.

I wanna unpack this a bit, because I think it's important. There's a few different reasons that intent is a poor metric for assessing... much of anything.

First is that intent brackets off the role that skill and craft play in actions in the world; one can intend well and do terribly due to simply not having the practical skills needed to carry out your intent. Virtuous action requires successfully reshaping/repairing the world in some way, and successful action requires a deep knowledge of the material you're working with. Focusing on intent to the exclusion of skill results in something like the faith-only flavors of Christianity, the ones with the uber-Platonic idea that intensity of feeling is itself salvific, and that therefore too much focus on good work marks one as tainted by the impure world.

Second: intent is relatively easy to fake. "Oh, I didn't mean to discriminate, that's just how it worked out." But faking impacts, on the other hand, is very difficult, generally requiring a large-scale coverup that inevitably goes to pieces when people start asking questions (see: the Flint water atrocity).

Third, though, and this is a reason why at this particular moment intent is a poor metric: we've landed in a cyberpunk future where it's relatively easy to collect and analyze huge amounts of data on entire populations. As a result, it's likewise easy to construct a set of tests that in no way reference whether the people you're analyzing fit into protected categories (giving you a dodge if you want to claim you had no discriminatory intent), but which just so happen to disproportionately impact people in those categories. This reason is like the second reason, just even more so — not only is intent easy to conceal, it's so easy to conceal that there exist algorithms to do it for you.

tl;dr: Impact is something you can measure, and sometimes you can even trust your measurements. Intent, on the other hand, is something you can hack.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [42 favorites]


What was the path to hell paved with again?
posted by Artw at 10:14 AM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


New thread new thread new thread! Also I think this is my first FPP so if I missed anything (like the fact that the VP debate is on Tuesday, ugh), please be kind.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 10:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


>If Clinton wins, there's going to be a reckoning for the GOP that will have to address just how many state and local party orgs (and elected officials) have already gone over from Fox News conservatism to Breitbart/Infowars shit. It's hard to roll that back and become a Chamber of Commerce-type party again.

God, don't get me fantasizing. The Democratic Party and the Chambers of Commerce are a natural fit for each other, and without the money men behind them the Republicans are left holding nothing but the basket of deplorables. If the Republicans collapse the Democrats can define themselves as the new center, and maybe we'll get a worthwhile party on the left sometime before I'm an old man in a retirement home (or, more likely, an old man in a tent under an overpass).
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:18 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


> what was the path to hell paved with again?
posted by Artw at 10:14 AM on September 29 [3 favorites +] [!]


4000 comment metafilter threads.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [51 favorites]


what was the path to hell paved with again?

Cute, but the old bromide warns against procrastination more than anything else; it's not really germaine.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


so basically you're saying we shouldn't throw away our shot?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


>> If Clinton wins, there's going to be a reckoning for the GOP that will have to address just how many state and local party orgs (and elected officials) have already gone over from Fox News conservatism to Breitbart/Infowars shit. It's hard to roll that back and become a Chamber of Commerce-type party again.

> God, don't get me fantasizing. The Democratic Party and the Chambers of Commerce are a natural fit for each other...


But that's what we said when McCain lost - that the GOP would have to address its Black and Latino problem if it ever wanted to be relevant in Presidential elections again.

And that's what we said again when Romney lost - that these lessons could not be ignored and how the GOP was in danger of being reduced to a Southern rump.

Did it happen? In the immortal words of W, "Now watch this drive."

(And with that, on to the new thread.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:27 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe religious people should consider voting for the candidate who's been a Sunday school teacher and has spoken at length on her faith.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Oh, I didn't mean to discriminate, that's just how it worked out."

I'd add a fourth to this in that you can combine your 2nd and 3rd points to give yourself permission to be racist.

"Oh, it's okay that voter ID laws have racist outcomes since the intent is to make sure no one cheats democracy."

Hack the intent to rationalize the outcomes.
posted by VTX at 10:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Policies with racist effects are racist. People that support policies known to have racist outcomes are supporting racism in our institutions. That's pretty much the definition of racist.

Intent counts for shit.


Intent is only meaningful if it's followed by actions: "oh, Policy X has racist results? That's terrible, and not what I intended! Please, let's adjust that with Amendment Y; will that help?"

A person who did not know, does not want, and works to fix racist results, may get a pass on supporting racism. There's room to argue that they damn well should have known; the evidence was just as available to them as it was to people of color, and it shouldn't be the job of minorities to force the privileged majority to realize simple truths. But there's also room to say it's worth picking the battles that are worth the energy, and someone who honestly wants better results is probably not one of those battles.

Where intent doesn't matter is "well, that's the policy, and anyone can see it is a fair and unbiased policy; if some people are using it to get an advantage and others aren't, well, it's not my fault if the advantages are all going to white people."

Good intent means you get a willingness to listen to your attempts to fix the problem, and possibly a pass for your participation after the problem is fixed. Intent gives no points if you're not working on a fix.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


But that's what we said when McCain lost - that the GOP would have to address its Black and Latino problem if it ever wanted to be relevant in Presidential elections again.

We? It's what Republicans themselves said.

Let me sum up Josh Marshall's take:
  • Pass Immigration Reform Yesterday
  • Listen To Minorities
  • Gays Aren't Going Away
  • Epistemic Closure Is Real
  • Look To The States (which means point to successful Republican governors -- o hai, Sam Brownback!)
  • Stop Being The Rich Guys


None of the Republican governors running in the primary posed a serious challenge to Trump, and while Trump's VP pick is a governor, here in his home state of Indiana Mike Pence is widely regarded as a failure who avoided a humiliating re-election defeat by jumping to the ticket.

So where, exactly, have the Republicans made progress on any of those points -- that their own strategists recommended, mind! -- in the past four years?
posted by Gelatin at 10:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Now, I still think the people demanding that people talk about this in order to disown Trump and be welcome this year voting for Clinton are wrong - both tactically and morally.

I would just point out, in the twilight of this thread, that (a) nobody can prevent someone from choosing Clinton over Trump and (2) how different is that sort of thinking from the same sort of thinking that happens every time some clown opens their mouth and spouts this shit? Well, can't confront/ostracize them now, we have an election coming up.

If conservatives stepping up and denouncing Trump are going to fold that effort when someone points out to them that Trump didn't just pop into existence without encouragement then I'm gonna wager pretty strongly that they weren't gonna put all that much effort into promoting an alternative anyway.
posted by phearlez at 10:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


nobody can prevent someone from choosing Clinton over Trump

It's also a straw man to say that people aren't welcome unless they meet certain criteria. By all means, the Democratic tent welcomes refugees from other tents, but you're going to have to bring your own cookies, because we're saving ours for the people who weren't working against progressive goals until Tangerine Hitler won your party's nomination. If noting that you're doing a good by voting against facism isn't enough of a welcome, I don't know exactly what red carpet you're waiting for.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


New FPP
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


protip: if you're looking for cookies in the Democratic Party big tent, don't ask the party itself. Instead, hook up with the other refugees chilling in the tent's democratic socialist wing. We have cookies, they're homemade, they're delicious, and some of them are... let's say special...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


[deleted]
posted by mazola at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016


I have no idea how these people wedged a fascist into the Republican Party nomination, or why...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm trying to imagine Trump as a Sunday School Teacher.

"Jesus got himself crucified. Sad! I like people who weren't crucified. What a loser!"

"The Egyptians were a complete disaster, let me tell you. They rode right into the Red Sea and got killed! If I had been in charge, none of that would have happened. I would have made a great Pharoah. The best."

"Now Moses, he was a smart guy. Not as smart as me, but...."

"The moral of the story of Sodom and Lot's wife is, you can never trust a woman."
posted by zarq at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


I have no idea how these people wedged a fascist into the Republican Party nomination, or why...

There was a special fascist-shaped slot that everybody had been pretending wasn't there.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


There was a special fascist-shaped slot that everybody had been pretending wasn't there.

This election I've often found myself recalling with amusement Jonah Goldberg's silly book that tried to claim, nuh-uh, liberals are the real fascists.

If memory serves me correctly, he said he wrote it in part because he was tired of hearing Republicans accused of fascism.

Brother, you ain't heard nothing yet.
posted by Gelatin at 11:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


New thread
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:11 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Intent is only meaningful if it's followed by actions: "oh, Policy X has racist results? That's terrible, and not what I intended! Please, let's adjust that with Amendment Y; will that help?"

So I think the problem that I see is that I feel like big, big policies - in fact, nearly every policy proposed by either party in the last decades - tend to have impacts that are differentiated by race, not because the policies themselves necessarily cause actual harm to a minority group, but because of some of the things that YCTAB was talking about - for example, how capital tends to produce more capital. Like, capitalism itself, which generally is considered fairly neutral, and even the Democratic Party largely backs, tends to produce unequal outcomes, and because of starting position, tends to produce differing results by race.

So, for example: home ownership, and supporting homeowners. Home ownership is generally considered a cornerstone of the American Dream - not very controversial. But home ownership, often as a result of generational poverty, redlining, and a host of other things, is unequal. The last census I saw places 71% of white households as homeowning, with only 46% of black households owning their own home. So any policy evenly helping homeowners, even if it didn't harm anyone, could be viewed as racist by those standards. Any policy evenly helping people to BECOME homeowners, to try to close that gap, would ALSO be racist. And any policy specifically and deliberately helping only people of one race is probably (rightly) unconstitutional.

Genuinely, how do you deal with that? And how do you deal with that while still leaving room for deliberately racist policies to be called out and not lost in the noise?
posted by corb at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Any policy evenly helping people to BECOME homeowners, to try to close that gap, would ALSO be racist.

Only if one believes that "reverse racism" is a thing. Otherwise, policies aimed at closing that gap would be reaching a population that skews more toward PoC than those who already have a home. This does not harm those who do already have a home, it just fails to continue giving those people more help than they've already gotten for many decades. That's not what racism is.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


(There's a separate question of whether we should be subsidizing / encouraging home ownership -- I don't think we should -- but since we are, and have, it's incorrect to say that doing anything to correct the racial imbalance would be "racist.")
posted by tonycpsu at 11:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


The last census I saw places 71% of white households as homeowning, with only 46% of black households owning their own home.

You do realize that part of the reason for that statistic is actively racist redlining, don't you?
posted by Gelatin at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sorry, I was a bit unclear, tonycpsu: when I said any policy evenly helping people to become homeowners would be racist by that measure, I meant that if it helps everyone, white people would probably be more likely to take advantage of it because they are closer to the possibility of homeownership (credit, assets, etc) and so a neutral program would still probably have more white benefit, which would be counterproductive.
posted by corb at 11:25 AM on September 29, 2016


And how do you deal with that while still leaving room for deliberately racist policies to be called out and not lost in the noise?

Speaking of deliberately racist policies getting lost in the noise, several recent court decisions striking down voting restrictions have pointed to a considerable amount of evidence that said restrictions did, in fact, deliberately target black voters. In at least one case, legislators were on record asking for census data about race. Yet of course the noise the legislators made was all about "voter fraud," which hasn't really very much been shown to exist.

A lot of the noise stems from efforts to portray racist policies -- and not benign or unintentional ones, either -- as not being so.
posted by Gelatin at 11:27 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


She mentioned redlining in the previous sentence.
posted by miguelcervantes at 11:27 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Right now if I Google Trump for news every single link is Cuba. You have to go to another page to get to anything else.
posted by Jalliah at 11:30 AM on September 29, 2016


Missed that, thanks. But then there would be nothing wrong with a policy that helps the victims of previous injustices, even if such a program is not racially neutral. I disagree strongly that such a program would be racist.
posted by Gelatin at 11:31 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


You pass laws like The Community Reinvestment Act

There is plenty of argument to be had about the effectiveness of the CRA and there are certainly things about it that could be better and/or more overtly aimed at the minority groups experiencing disparate impact. But, it's a direct attempt at addressing inequality created by the sometimes unforeseen consequences of other programs.

I think some of what you're getting at is that it's hard to separate racial inequality from wealth inequality. Encouraging home-ownership is an attempt at addressing the latter but it exacerbates the former. The reason is because wealth is racially disparate in it's distribution and magically waving racism away won't change that fact. Poverty is cyclical (poor people usually have parents who were poor and vice versa) and so we would continue to see racist patterns long after racism itself is gone.

So I think we basically need to address both and realize that there may not be anything that can be done to "fix it" only slowly make it a little bit better and never stop trying to improve.
posted by VTX at 11:31 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Most policies encouraging homeownership in this country, going all the way back to the question of limiting the vote to the propertied, have been racist. Redlining isn't some accidental add-on to homeownership policies.
posted by gingerbeer at 11:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm trying to imagine Trump as a Sunday School Teacher.

That needs to be on the twitters.
posted by bongo_x at 11:41 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


If someone is genuinely concerned that help for people to become homeowners will disproportionately help white people, and disagrees morally or philosophically with ways to take race into account in how that help is targeted, then they need to provide a credible alternative. Otherwise, protests about the distinction between outcome and intent ring rather hollow.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


i don't follow that. if you are worried about X and disagree with possible fixes you may not have an alternative. perhaps there is no alternative.

(this is a general observation about logic, not intended to support any view on this particular issue.)
posted by andrewcooke at 12:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Oops, we yet again managed to accidentally rig up all of society so as to place black Americans at a significant disadvantage" seems to me the unconstitutional thing that needs to get remedied, even if semantic arguments about intentional-versus-accidental saying that such an outcome shouldn't be labeled "racist" were accepted. It doesn't matter what you call it.

capitalism itself, which generally is considered fairly neutral, and even the Democratic Party largely backs, tends to produce unequal outcomes

I'm not clear where it's coming from that capitalism is considered fairly neutral, but when capitalism can't get its shit together it's subordinate to concerns of equality. We changed capitalism so that lunch counters everywhere can be forced to sell sandwiches to black people, or for example to add in anti-trust laws. Unconstitutionality of all possible remedies definitely isn't the reason why issues of structural racism haven't been addressed.
posted by XMLicious at 12:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


As I've said here before, American history since colonial times has been about converting settlers into citizens through land ownership. (Of course, it's essentially been at other people's expense.) At the same time, a large country has a lot of land that can be improved, unlike a smaller or more densely-populated country where there are perhaps greater benefits from shared infrastructure and services.

So you end up weighing the arguments of someone like Hernando de Soto -- that giving poor people formal title over property gets them into the formal economy -- against Piketty's critique of capital concentration in the developed world.

How this translates into policy involves looking at things like the mortgage interest deduction -- a middle-class entitlement -- or postal banking or microloans, as well as local things like zoning.
posted by holgate at 12:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


SLG: @Acosta: Trump slams Clinton campaign ads: "I long to see an Ivory Snow commercial."
I'm surprised he doesn't like the ads more. After all, he claimed that ALL publicity is good even the bad and besides they mostly star Trump and we know that Trump is his favorite person.
I think the subtext is, Ivory Snow is 99 & 44/100ths pure white.
(on preview, what Kirkaracha said)
posted by msalt at 1:10 PM on September 29, 2016


> Sorry, I was a bit unclear, tonycpsu: when I said any policy evenly helping people to become homeowners would be racist by that measure, I meant that if it helps everyone, white people would probably be more likely to take advantage of it because they are closer to the possibility of homeownership (credit, assets, etc) and so a neutral program would still probably have more white benefit, which would be counterproductive

Reparations.

Failing reparations, a universal basic income, so that the worst excesses of race-based hyperexploitation can be tamped down.

but, well, reparations is the answer to the question you're asking.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Whose wand do I have to rub to get a separate thread whose sole purpose is to cast every actor in this election as someone from Harry Potter?

I went on a lengthy rant on FB about that Umbridge vs Gilderoy Lockhart meme that was going around. I concluded that Trump is actually both of them, combining the worst characteristics of both into one perfect storm of awful.

In other words, I'd be down with such a thread. :)
posted by threeturtles at 1:15 PM on September 29, 2016


gordie: Can you imagine being the one guy that didn't vote for God or maybe spelled it wrong? How embarrassing.

Which God? Is Based God still one of Lil B's nicknames?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:40 PM on September 29, 2016


Policies with racist effects are racist. People that support policies known to have racist outcomes are supporting racism in our institutions. That's pretty much the definition of racist.

I think this is one of the big gaps between conservatives and liberals, and worth talking about. It's why Trump can say "OMG can you believe she called the whole country racist?" while liberals are like "well yes of course we are all prejudiced and have to constantly make sure our bias doesn't affect out behavior."

I had this argument with my mother. Without going into the specifics, because they are complex, she was frequently repeating a talking point my husband and I found really racist. One night my husband called her out on it, saying "Threeturtles' Mom, that sounds really racist, can you stop saying that?" And of course she freaked out, and there were tears, and "Omg how could you think I was a racist!" and "How would you feel if someone called you racist?" (To which I responded, yes, I HAVE been called racist, and no it didn't feel good, but I listened.)

The difference is that as soon as some people are criticized on race, they jump to the conclusion you are accusing them of being KKK members. Whether it's a generational thing, an education thing, or a political ideology thing I don't know. But most people on the left will accept that there is a difference between being a racist person and a person who does a racist thing or expresses a racist sentiment. Anyone can express a racist sentiment, either because they were being thoughtless, or they didn't realize it could be offensive, or because they gave in to an implicit bias or kneejerk reaction. What defines a person, IMO, is how they react to being called on it.

Standard right-wing reaction is to double down, like Trump. "What I said wasn't racist, I am not a racist, how dare you imply....and by the way what I said was totally true and here is my racist justification."
posted by threeturtles at 1:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Damn, even Pink Floyd is against Trump. That clinches it for me. It's kind of like, if your greatest hit is "We don't need no education.. teacher, leave that kid alone", and you are still against the Donald, what is there left to say? (I kid, I know Waters is so far to the left he makes Bernie look like Rush Limbaugh).
posted by rainy at 1:45 PM on September 29, 2016


i don't follow that. if you are worried about X and disagree with possible fixes you may not have an alternative. perhaps there is no alternative.

There is no reasonable disagreement that says that help currently being given to people isn't helping them -- they can eat the help, wear it, and sleep under its roof.

There is more of a bank-shot criticism of things like cash transfers and other programs targeted toward specific socioeconomic groups, etc. that tries to make the case that it's not in the long-term good for those people (because complacency) or for the society (because high taxation stunts economic growth) or "fairness", or whatever, and to the extent that those who believe in these things can make compelling arguments for these changes, they ought to.

Still, this protesting about impact vs. intent simply doesn't pass the smell test. Pushing for specific changes to the way we distribute tax revenue or to how and from whom that revenue is collected is an implicit acknowledgement that the person pushing for those changes believes their preferred outcomes will better address these problems. I do not buy claims of ignorance about the very predictable harm that comes to actual people when people push for these radical changes to public policy. I would not say anyone welcomes the suffering, but I would say they're somewhere between indifferent to it and seeing it as the cost of building the better society they want in the long run in which other people will suffer less. Neither of these extremes is satisfactory.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


it seems like a lot of people just weren't paying much attention until now [after the first debate]

For normal Americans, the presidential race is a sport with a 3 game season. Everything before the first debate is pre-season and doesn't really count.

We're all political junkies or we wouldn't be fighting through a thousand comments a day, but I also avidly discuss who is on the practice squad of NFL teams. I constantly try to remind myself who is the odd one in this comparison, though.
posted by msalt at 1:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think this is one of the big gaps between conservatives and liberals, and worth talking about. It's why Trump can say "OMG can you believe she called the whole country racist?" while liberals are like "well yes of course we are all prejudiced and have to constantly make sure our bias doesn't affect out behavior."

I think that this may stem from people's beliefs about the role of shame in promoting/discouraging behavior.
posted by amtho at 1:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


....As the debate wrapped up on Monday night, Clinton endured Trump's threats to mention her husband's adultery despite the fact he's had three marriages, and been accused of rape and adultery himself. As she eviscerated him on calling women pigs and dogs, Trump lied about his position on the Iraq War, lied about his reasons for not releasing his tax returns, lied about his belief that climate change is a hoax created by the Chinese, lied about his feeling that pregnancy is an "inconvenience" for businesses, lied during his defense of unconstitutional stop and frisk, lied that crime is getting worse in New York, and then lied when he said his temperament was his greatest quality. And what did Clinton get?

On Fox News, they cut to their political analyst Brit Hume describing Clinton: "The TV audience saw the faces of the two candidates," Hume said. "And she looked composed, smug sometimes … not necessarily attractive."

All this work, and what did Clinton get? She got an actual smug, young journalist named Isaac Saul writing about how I despised her, when I hardly knew the depth of her accomplishments, when I was clinging to the pipe dream of a Bernie Sanders presidency that may have never been in the cards, when my own father got ignored while he tried his best to talk some sense into me.

Secretary Clinton, I'm sorry. And I retract my previous position of hatred and angst towards you. You have made mistakes, some of them grave, and some of them unforgivable. Unfortunately, that comes with decades of life in the public eye, pressure, and microphones in your face. But you have also accomplished far more in your life as a public servant than just about anyone that's run for this office, and certainly far more than I ever will. When November rolls around, you'll have my vote.

And you'll get it enthusiastically.
I Wrote That I Despised Hillary Clinton. Today, I Want To Publicly Take It Back.
posted by y2karl at 1:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


The other weird thing about the NPR Politics podcast is that it's notably more diverse than the other ones I listen to - Five Thirty Eight, Slate, Vox's The Weeds...but that doesn't help with the false equivalence and softness toward Trump.
posted by zutalors! at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2016



For normal Americans, the presidential race is a sport with a 3 game season.


They also seem to think politics in general only happens once every four years like the Winter Olympics.
posted by zutalors! at 1:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Like, capitalism itself, which generally is considered fairly neutral,

I like capitalism more than the average left-leaner, I think, but even I say this calls for a [citation needed]
posted by phearlez at 2:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


I think the subtext is, Ivory Snow is 99 & 44/100ths pure white.

I agree, but I think it's also another sign of how old and out of date his worldview is. There were lots of cultural references to Ivory soap in the early- to mid-1970s, but it hasn't been a huge presence on the cultural landscape since then. He also loves to bring up Generals MacArthur (who faded away in 1951 and died in 1964) and Patton (who died in 1945).
posted by kirkaracha at 2:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


He has to at some point have talked shit about someone who works in construction vis-a-vis their being not an awesome rich Winner like him.

Considering who tends to get his construction contracts, if he were to say something like that, he'd be down a couple kneecaps at the very least.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Considering who tends to get his construction contracts, if he were to say something like that, he'd be down a couple kneecaps at the very least.
Thornton Melon: Oh, you left out a bunch of stuff.

Dr. Phillip Barbay: Oh really? Like what for instance?

Thornton Melon: First of all you're going to have to grease the local politicians for the sudden zoning problems that always come up. Then there's the kickbacks to the carpenters, and if you plan on using any cement in this building I'm sure the teamsters would like to have a little chat with ya, and that'll cost ya. Oh and don't forget a little something for the building inspectors. Then there's long term costs such as waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that business but I assure you it's not the boyscouts.

Dr. Phillip Barbay: That will be quite enough, Mr. Melon! Maybe bribes, kickbacks and Mafia payoffs are how YOU do business! But they are NOT part of the legitimate business world! And they are certainly not part of anything I am doing in this class. Do I make myself clear, Mr. Melon!

posted by mikelieman at 3:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


For Recent Activity: New FPP
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also on the menu? “Trump sliders” and “Hillary hummus,” both for $29 bucks a pop.
There's a parallel universe where the parallel universe jumping jokes in this thread weren't about Hillary in Quantum Leap, but about Trump Sliders.

Except this one. This one turns into a crack about how sliders are small finger food.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 11:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


sliders are small finger food

By Meredith and the Five Steves, how did all of Metafilter miss this point

Well played, good knuckle tattoos.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:53 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just heard Van Jones on CNN make a critical point. The Trump surrogates are pushing back with "what he did was legal loss offset just like GE paid no taxes one year recently."

But...These revealed returns are his *personal* income taxes, not his corporate taxes. His conflation of his companies and himself is the story.
posted by spitbull at 6:44 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Slightly depressing listening to a group of young Bernie supporters at the next table. They're extremely anti Trump and I think they will vote for Clinton in PA but Clinton Derangement Syndrome seems to be going wrong. They seem to be hopeful that Bernie will pick up a few electoral votes in some small state like Vermont in order to "send a message". They think both Clinton and Trump would be "dictators" but say they'd prefer a dictator who at least knew what they were doing. One of them tried to say that Clinton and Trump had both done shitty things but that she thought Trump had done more of them. Another immediately said that she wasn't sure if she bought that. Someone said that part of her is excited to have the first woman President and part of her is why couldn't it have been anyone but her. But then she added that she still had to be impressed with how she fought to claw her way up through the system and maybe her ascent to power could pave the way for other women.
posted by peacheater at 11:09 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Slightly depressing listening to a group of young Bernie supporters at the next table.

You really need to let it go. Not everyone likes Hillary as the Democratic candidate, but it's not any kind of "derangement." The majority of those who supported Bernie are voting for her anyway, and now if you really support Hillary, part of your job is to make it easier for them to pull the lever for her. You're not doing that right now.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also, frankly, I've been in lefty circles enough to suspect that especially when folks are young, there's an unwillingness to express ambiguity or depart from the party line because it doesn't seem socially acceptable. Not that older people never feel this way, but I definitely remember piping down about questions, doubts or maybe-this-candidate-has-major-drawbacks-but-also-some-pluses in social settings in my twenties. So there's an artificial orthodoxy effect - many people are thinking "I like Bernie, I'm meh on Hillary but her [POLICY] on [ISSUE] isn't so bad" and "I was really excited about Bernie but it would have been a challenge for him to twist arms the way Hillary will be able to" while they're all nodding along about how Hillary is history's greatest monster, etc. This is, IME especially true in majority-male social settings because women are under pressure to be the cool girls and not express any anxiety about gender and the whole "Hillary is just as bad as Trump" line.

This is one advantage to secret voting!
posted by Frowner at 5:52 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


So there's an artificial orthodoxy effect - many people are thinking "I like Bernie, I'm meh on Hillary but her [POLICY] on [ISSUE] isn't so bad"

I tend to think it's more "She's likely to win so I can't be too enthusiastic".
posted by bongo_x at 9:15 PM on October 2, 2016


I think it's a little of both.

Not being enthusiastic or choosing to vote third party can remove feelings of culpability if the person elected makes decisions that are uncomfortable for the voter. It's a way of maintaining distance and superiority over the process and allows for a different sort of judgment to be claimed over other voters as they can be "blamed" for anything that might go wrong.

It also can be more of a herd thing based on uncertainty over information or belief others may know more about the subject than you so in order not to place oneself at risk of challenge you accept the general line taken by those you know who you largely find sympathy with in day to day life. It's crowd sourced voting in a sense, but which follows the same patterns that advertisers have been aware of where trends are set by a few select members of a group who hold positions of esteem within their circle, their values then spread and become naturalized as challenging them becomes progressively more difficult the more followers they gain. Young people often have a harder time with such dynamics given their more fluid social circles and developing sense of indentities.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:31 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


it's not any kind of "derangement."

if they think Clinton would be a "dictator," yes, yes it is.
posted by zutalors! at 6:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]




I mean, Clinton may have a position of esteem, being the dem candidate and all, but it seems like most of the young people out there are having a pretty healthy debate about her merits.

Sure, it's not a universal, just a dynamic that can potentially explain certain otherwise puzzling effects. It isn't just something that happens to young people, but young people often have a wider range of acquaintanceships to negotiate as they figure out their own place in the world, so adopting more radical positions or more frequently changing their stances makes some sense in that environment as you become exposed to new things.

With some Trump supporters I'd suspect roughly the same thing happens, but their relationship groups are more static and may be smaller if they are somewhat older or haven't gone to college or spent much time outside their immediate community. A couple guys get the idea Trump's got things figured out and trumpet that to their peer group, it catches on and becomes something akin to "fact" within the group as they may limit their information to the group and media acceptable to their belief set.

At some point, the problem can become voting for a candidate can feel like being asked to say 2+2=5. If you're sure, for example, Bernie had all the right answers, then voting for Clinton can seem like you're being asked to agree to a factually wrong statement. (That isn't quite true for a number of reasons, but the mind can rebel if it feels like it is.)
posted by gusottertrout at 6:49 AM on October 3, 2016


if they think Clinton would be a "dictator," yes, yes it is.

See, it's this kind of thing that I recall from certain activist situations in my twenties - the social pressure to say that I believed that something that was really just meh was the Worst Thing Ever, the social pressure to say that clearly, no one with any principles could ever support Least Bad Thing, etc.

I quite clearly remember saying "well, I would prefer a dictator who knows what she's doing" type stuff when I was trying to hang with some radical dudes with awesome radical politics. Basically, we had really stupid conversations because we didn't want to pay attention to policy.

There's absolutely a case for saying "I refuse this, 100%, I will not vote, I don't care what bad things happen because anything is better than engaging with this corrupt process", and I respect that although I disagree profoundly. But once you're in the process, once you're saying "I want to help decide who runs the American imperium", you're putting yourself in the realm of compromise and distinctions and, yes, policy choices.

There are lots and lots of snake people who have really sophisticated grasp of policy and really sophisticated conversations about political choices....but lord knows, there's some willfully low information conversations happening too, and if you time traveled back to, like, 1998-2002 you would have seen me having a bunch of them.
posted by Frowner at 7:45 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think the 100 Central Park South story will be a no-go since it won't resonate with most voters, who aren't urban renters and have no concept of tenant law. It sounds vaguely unsavory or not nice, but if you're an Ohioan homeowner it's hard to find your place in that particular narrative.

I don't know if i buy this one. To me it seems that:

1. Most people live in cities

2. Like, basically no young people can afford to buy in a city anymore. If they did, they inherited/got in after the recession or before the bubble/etc. I know less than 5 people under 30 who have or have even posted on social media about owning or purchasing a home, and i have a pretty wide network. I know this is anecdata, but still.

3. No one gets a job out of college/after high school and buys anymore. Everyone rents before they do that.

4. Following on that, most people rent the cheapest place they can put up with while they're saving for a down payment to buy. I know people making low-mid six figures who live in cheap basement apartments so they can sock away cash.

5. My parents, and all my friends parents gave us tons of advice about slumlords when we were all first moving out. EVERYONES parents had stories about it. My parents are around 60, most of my friends parents are in their late 40s or early 50s. This is not a recent shared experience.

6. Therefor, most people seem to have at some point lived in a shitty rental. Hell, both of my parents remember living in shithole places with slumlords. Whether it's your first apartment, after a relationship falls apart and you need a place ASAP, after you got let go during the recession, while you were in school... etc

Basically i have the opposite opinion of this story as you. I think it's glorious. Nearly everyone i know has had a shitty landlord at some point.

Now the question is, will it turn off anyone who's already in the tank for him? I'm not so sure. But i think it will resonate with a whole hell of a lot of voters... Just maybe not Trump voters who were already on board.
posted by emptythought at 1:26 PM on October 4, 2016


I come from the future... Just wanted to say, all the debates came out okay.
posted by Mchelly at 4:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


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