♪♫ Oh my God. Tear this dude apart.
October 19, 2016 5:31 PM   Subscribe

With 20 days to go until Election Day, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump face off in their third and final debate at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas at 9:00 PM Eastern Time. Print out your Bingo cards and tune in to any major network (BBC News and Sky News in the UK) or listen on NPR. Alternately, watch on one of YouTube's channels in English (NBC, PBS, Fox News, the Washington Post, the New York Times, C-SPAN) and Spanish (Univision, Telemundo.) Twitter will stream Bloomberg. Facebook has ABC and PBS. C-SPAN has its own feed (C-SPAN Radio is also streaming.) You can watch in virtual reality (Gear, Rift, or Vive) via AltspaceVR, although that may not be a good idea. If you hurry, you can even watch for free in your local Regal Cinema.

The debate will be moderated by Fox News' Chris Wallace. He will ask questions about debt and entitlements, immigration, the economy, the Supreme Court, foreign hot spots, and the candidates’ fitness to be president. Each of the six segments will last 15 minutes.

On Thursday C-SPAN will air the Al Smith Dinner live starting at 8:50 PM. Video will be available here, although it's not yet clear if it will stream live.

Per mod request, try not to post reactions without providing context. Remember that people will be trying to make sense of this thread days (or years) from now. If you need to post "OMG!" in real time, use our Chat. (If the web interface isn't working for you, frimble has instructions for connecting with Adium, Monal, and Apple Messages. A longer list of Jabber-compatible clients is here.)

Can't tell the PoT(T) from MAGA? Check out the updated wiki page for in-joke explanations, protips, and voter information. If you want to analyze how the debates are being covered, the Internet Archive has the data. To talk about election posts, see the MetaTalk post.

Previous debate threads: All Election2016 posts.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker (3775 comments total) 93 users marked this as a favorite
 
Oh my god, I made it to the end of the thread!
posted by gc at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [157 favorites]


And may god have mercy upon our souls.
posted by Artw at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


Election thread with zero comments. I took a screenshot.

Edit: dammit.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [82 favorites]


FINISH HIM.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [53 favorites]


Don't know if I can do this. I may just leave the Yuri on Ice OP running for two hours instead.
posted by charred husk at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Charged and ready to see how low he can go.
posted by flippant at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2016


@jon_bois: "today i’m reading about policy. that way when the candidates debate tonight, i will understand the complicated things they are talking about"
posted by mazola at 5:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


Nice place, I'll just sit over here.
posted by valkane at 5:33 PM on October 19, 2016


"Bah gawd, that's Egg McMuffin's music!"
posted by tonycpsu at 5:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


So, I haven't been reading these threads since right after the DNC, did I miss anything?
posted by Chrysostom at 5:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


IS THIS THE NEW THREAD?
posted by infinitywaltz at 5:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay I'm ready.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:34 PM on October 19, 2016


To spare my sanity, I'm learning PHP instead
posted by ocschwar at 5:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [33 favorites]


C-SPAN is showing a pre debate meet and greet
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:34 PM on October 19, 2016


It's like Threadmas Morning!
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 5:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


You people have given me the worst craving for tacos with that last thread I swear
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


it feels so weird to not be watching the debate live... but I'll probably end up sitting in my car in the school parking garage when this math test is over, watching the last half on my phone like the addict I am. halp.
posted by palomar at 5:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Would love to see a poll of third-debate-watchers that asks why they're watching: I think “haven’t made up my mind yet” would lose to “hoping to see a trainwreck” by a factor of two.
posted by savetheclocktower at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]



To spare my sanity, I'm learning PHP instead


This PHP, it may not do what you think it will do.
posted by localhuman at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [55 favorites]


I have all the same thoughts and feelings that have been articulated in these threads before the start of a debate: It's beneath Hillary Clinton to have to share the stage with this nightmare joke. I feel like this election has taken years off my life in sheer stress. Part of me wonders if Donald might lash out physically. None of this is how government is supposed to work. I just want the ugliness to end. But afraid it won't. I do feel like Hillary Clinton is standing between me and the screaming void.
posted by prefpara at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [53 favorites]


I'm watching Survivor right now before the debate comes on. I'm looking forward to seeing two torches get snuffed tonight.
posted by phunniemee at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm dialed into YouTube, I've had a glass of nice red wine, and my lovely wife, who can't abide the ugliness, has gone upstairs. I'm ready.
posted by Gelatin at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Bored, watching msnbc and waiting for the debate, and this happened.
posted by heyho at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


4 New Comments [show]

I love you all, and godspeed. Like so many of you have said before, these threads have helped me stay...

1,965 New Comments [show]

Goddamnit.
posted by mrgoat at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [71 favorites]




Mod note: Welcome, folks! To preserve my sanity and eyeballs, please try to keep this substantive. Chat is open if you just want quick banter! Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


FESTIVAAAAAAL!!!!! FEEEASTIVAAAAAAAAAL!
posted by vrakatar at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ha ha I'm about to enjoy the debate from the best possible place - my flight is about to take off! See you on the other side of Airplane Mode, suckers!
posted by nickmark at 5:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


to spare my sanity, i'm smoking pcp instead
posted by pyramid termite at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [41 favorites]


Heading seen on MSNBC a few minutes ago: "CLINTON VS TRUMP: THE FINAL MATCHUP."

Yes, because this is professional wrestling, not, y'know, PEOPLE'S LIVES.
posted by dnash at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Scott Baio sighting ! I repeat! Scott Baio sighting!
posted by Sophie1 at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


A friend posted on FB that she's not watching the shitshow tonight but she's super pumped for the SNL cold open this weekend.
posted by palomar at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Keeping it 1600 is live again (with therapy dogs)
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Don't worry, she's a shoe in, done deal, no problem, heck everyone else is voting for her so stay home, kick back, relax.
posted by sammyo at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2016


Per mod request, try not to post reactions without providing context. Remember that people will be trying to make sense of this thread days (or years) from now. If you need to post "OMG!" in real time.

This is outstanding advice.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm watching, but I'm really not looking forward to 90 minutes of Trump's continued shitting on our democracy. It is so nauseating.
posted by joedan at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


The CSPAN host was just asking Holger Stark of Der Spiegel to give the German perspective on the US election and debates and he was being wonderfully frank. He said that this election is being covered more than any other election (hi world! sorry world!) because of Trump is a walking international disaster wildcard who “schmoozes with Putin” and because Hillary Clinton is known on the world stage. Not surprisingly, he says Germans see Donald Trump as a bully and Hillary Clinton is a known, so it’s not about any kind of policy, but instead a spectacle that he likened to “two matadors facing off.” They just want to see who wins. Congrats, USA, we are now officially the WWE of the entire world.
posted by zennie at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [46 favorites]


Hey everybody. It's gonna be a rough couple hours probably, huh? To help us all get through it, I offer you these gifs. My recommendation: leave 'em open in a tab, and when Trump talks, just mute him and look at this sweet innocent CGI baby tree instead.
posted by yasaman at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Voice on speakers tells everyone to take their seats
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2016


Between waiting to see what batshit garbage Donny will spew next, waiting to see if my tarte tatin comes out in one piece, and waiting to hear about a possible new job, I have run entirely out of evens. It's probably time to open the wine.
posted by Sara C. at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Is anyone else bugged when you hear "I hate this election" (insert profanity wherever)? Like I totally get that sentiment, but it frustrates me because pretty much all the awful behavior is coming from one specific candidate. (Other than Jill Stein occasionally tweeting something to undercut her own credibility.) Does anyone else feel like that frustration sends a message of false equivalency?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [48 favorites]


Sophie1: "Scott Baio sighting ! I repeat! Scott Baio sighting!"

Somewhere, Willie Aames stares at an unringing phone and sighs.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


I skipped watching the last debate live, but I'm back for this one. Let's do this, MeFi. Thanks for keeping me sane during this insane election season.
posted by defenestration at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Keepin it 1600 dogs are so cute, it's giving me issues.
posted by joyceanmachine at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2016


Michaela is getting a really good victory arc this episode. She's such a Hillary omg.
posted by phunniemee at 5:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


nytimes has nice view of podiums
posted by kuatto at 5:40 PM on October 19, 2016


I have some beer, my kitty cat is curled up right here, the thread is open, and I have XCOM 2 fired up because I cannot handle watching these debates fully without distraction. I didn't eat tacos but I had kraft dinner which I felt was appropriately orange.

Also my girlfriend is across the coast and she's working tonight but will be checking in here all the time. (Have fun at work, babes!)

I hope this is not awful.
posted by Neronomius at 5:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Don't worry, she's a shoe in

If you ask me, she needs to get the shoe in before the 5-minute mark and not let up.
posted by duffell at 5:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


The only thing this debate was missing was Bob Loblaw.
posted by cmfletcher at 5:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Those washington post headsets make them look like they're working a shift at Burger King.
posted by valkane at 5:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


i'm going to have to sit this one out - don't want to stay up late again when i have a 12 hour shift tomorrow and if donnie does end up perched upside down on the ceiling gibbering obscenities as he tries to grab whatever he can that doesn't belong to him, i'm sure there will be video, as blurred out as it may be
posted by pyramid termite at 5:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Glass of wine to the right, this window to the left, drawing screen in the middle. You folks are gonna transcribe, right?
posted by Mooski at 5:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's 2:30am here in rome and I feel like ass thanks to some flu bug. I just want to thank all of you in advance for the coming play by play that I will obsessively read some time tomorrow morning after I get the munchkins off to school.
posted by romakimmy at 5:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Question for everyone: is there an 'optimal' live stream to watch on YouTube?
posted by defenestration at 5:41 PM on October 19, 2016


He said that this election is being covered more than any other election (hi world! sorry world!)

There was a BBC vox pop piece during the Tory party conference -- the true blue faithful, a lot of ardent Brexiters -- with a "drop the ball in the perspex box" poll for the US election. Clinton came out ahead by about two-thirds to one-third.
posted by holgate at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Utter silence in room. Most appear to be in their seats.
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2016


The audience is Neanderthals, and won't shut up. This is Idiocracy.
posted by Yowser at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2016


Hillary is a soldier and will go her entire life without ever complaining about this, but I hate that she has to share a stage with this man -- this unrepentant sexual predator snarling about locking her up in prison. It's demeaning to her, and degrading to American democracy.

It's nearly over. Let's get through this together. Trump delenda est.
posted by Rumpled at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [89 favorites]


SMOKE EM IF YOU GOT EM!
posted by vrakatar at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is the prodromal or pre-emetic phase
posted by srboisvert at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Utter silence? What stream are you watching? CNN is a shitshow.
posted by Yowser at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait.... Were the giant glowing side flags always there?
posted by zennie at 5:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


We have a French high school exchange student staying with us right now. She said the other day, "I hate that Trump."

Me too, Maxine. Me too.
posted by cooker girl at 5:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [35 favorites]


Mmmmm... that effervescent Fresh Thread scent.

Thanks, CHT.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 5:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Anyone know why these things always kick off at 9:03? Is it lag due to solar wind? What?
posted by valkane at 5:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


NyTimes, audience instruction is starting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_pEb1bDN-w
posted by kuatto at 5:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm watching C-Span.
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Utter silence? What stream are you watching? CNN is a shitshow.

Watch CSPAN, man. No talking heads, plus you get a nice half hour lead-in of just the inside of the arena.
posted by jammer at 5:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Do we think the Trump cast of ghouls was brought in to heckle her Joe Wilson style? What are the odds someone actually interjects from the audience? Is the Secret Service ready to step in and remove Okeefe if he starts yelling?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Networks pick it up at 9pm. You need a minute or two for intro.
posted by cmfletcher at 5:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looking forward to spending this debate together with you guys again - thanks for keeping me sane.

*sigh* I still can't bear to watch....
posted by Otherwise at 5:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Guys always look outta place in suits near SUVs.
posted by valkane at 5:45 PM on October 19, 2016


9:03 gives the on-air networks time to do their intros
posted by DanSachs at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


C-SPAN split screen showing the Clintons arriving
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016


I watch only CSPAN. Silence. Glorious silence. Janet Brown is now talking about the crew and committee for the debate commission.

Hillary arriving in bright white.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary's dressed in white again. It looks like it might be the same suit she wore at the last day of the convention.
posted by jammer at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The third minute is set aside for Elijah.
posted by drezdn at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


I'm watching Survivor right now. Can they just extend Tribal Council and we can vote Trump off?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'll probably go with pbs then send them money. I think it is pledge week all over public broadcastland.
posted by vrakatar at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016


C-SPAN here as well. It's just all raw feed.

Yum.... raw data.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


My husband and both my boys have been suffering the effects of a nasty stomach flu. For the past few days, i have been cleaning up all sorts of foul fluids and getting a glimpse of the hell that I'm probably going to go through any day now.

So what I'm saying is that I'm in the right frame of mind for the debates.
posted by bibliowench at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


CBS has a bunch of undecided voters who are doing the whole "the candidates are worse than the Kardashians!!!" schtick.

Give me a break-- the fact that news networks refuse to cover Clinton's policy speeches DOESN'T MEAN SHE ISN'T GIVING THEM.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Okay guys, serious question. My kid wanted to watch the debates but forgot the last one was tonight. Am I morally obligated to tell her? I just know he's going to say horrible awful shit.
posted by corb at 5:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm gonna miss you guys and obsessing over the election with you. I won't miss the election craziness, just the Metaobsession.
But, there's always Hillary's reelection coverage in four years.
Hopefully we won't be saying, "Remember the good times we had then? If we'd only known...."
posted by TrishaU at 5:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anyone know why these things always kick off at 9:03?

it's to give the alcohol time to hit the brain
posted by pyramid termite at 5:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Just saw HRC & family arrive on the WaPo thread. She's wearing her white Nomination Acceptance Speech pantsuit (or a very similar one). <3
posted by stolyarova at 5:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Steve Schmidt on MSNBC talking about Pence's refusal to repudiate Trump's election rigging claims: "Though we may live in post-fact America, I think it's important for our candidates for the Vice Presidency and the Presidency to have at least some relation to reality when they make representations that go to the heart of the integrity of our democratic system. And let's be clear, these are attacks on the foundations of how we pick our leaders. And it is very, very distrurbing."
posted by tonycpsu at 5:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


> is there an 'optimal' live stream to watch on YouTube?

It's been a long time since I wanted to rickroll someone... Plus it might be the correct answer to the question
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 5:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


I only have enough bourbon for a 45 minute debate, not a 90 minute debate. Horrors!
posted by chaoticgood at 5:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wapo and Cspan are the feeds of choice. No talking heads, or minimal talking heads. Anything else is horrible.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


You folks are gonna transcribe, right?

speaking of -- I get so excited about every one of these debates because a couple years ago I was head of editing at the company that used to produce the only decent real-time transcripts of these and many other terrible political events. which meant on a night like this in previous election years I would be in the office typing my wee fingers off so the precious New York Times and assorted other media outlets could get their fucking transcript up as fast as possible. you may have noticed that their transcript quality went to shit a couple years ago after we went bankrupt and got acquired by some other bunch of idiots. paragraph breaks in shocking places, even more embarrassing things.

anyhow, it's because I'm not there anymore and there isn't any more there to be at. so yes, Trump is destroying our world, but on the other hand, I can get drunk without any behind-the-cubicle secrecy and I don't have to listen to more than every third word unless I want to and I don't have to write it all down verbatim with his voice right in my headphones. so you win some, you lose some, freedom isn't free
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [84 favorites]


I am literally defying my mental health practitioner's professional counsel and directive by watching the debate and participating in this thread.

Woo rebellion.

Will someone come sit by me?
posted by mudpuppie at 5:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [58 favorites]


I'm at my favorite bar and have my favorite drink and soon will have my favorite tacos. As ready as I'll ever be.
posted by rtha at 5:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Wapo: NONE OF THE ABOVE is the vote of choice for people with no clue.
posted by valkane at 5:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


CBS has a bunch of undecided voters

How the everloving fuck can anyone seriously still be "undecided"? At this point, I'm suspecting either an overwhelming need for attention or some sort of pathology.
posted by bibliowench at 5:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [58 favorites]


I'm at work. Someone get drunk for me please.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Sleep deprived in London. This is a terrible idea. *glued to screen*
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I've been in Japan since Obama's 2008 campaign and I felt like I sort of missed out on the Hope and Change party watching from over here. Now being able to stream debates live on my AppleTV, and these amazing threads to keep me company, I feel American again.

Thanks Metafilter (and Youtube)!
posted by p3t3 at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I am petting a dog and watching Sense8. I REGRET NOTHING.

please tell me if anything terrible happens that will end the world as we know it
posted by corb at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


On Monday, I decided to start a break from my vices of choice. We'll see if I can survive this debate sober.
posted by defenestration at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


i had a capri-sun and i already drank it. let's do this
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


Tiff Maples in the family box tonight!
posted by phunniemee at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


any fun twitter people to follow?
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2016


I've got you guys open in one tab, and today's Great British Bake Off semi-final on YouTube in another. (DON'T SPOIL ME)

Let's do this.
posted by tzikeh at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


If it hasn't been mentioned yet, Stephen Colbert has a string quartet scoring the debate live.
posted by neroli at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


How the everloving fuck can anyone seriously still be "undecided"?

well, you see, both sides are equally—

*collapses, blood gushing from his ears*
posted by entropicamericana at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


Sigh. You know, I think I'm going to follow mudpuppie's mental health practitioner's professional counsel and go hang the flying crank ghost on the porch to frighten children on Halloween.

I'm frightened enough already.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I used to work on a dairy farm. There was a giant shit lagoon next to the milking barns, between milking shifts someone would run a Bobcat through the barns and push the shit into the lagoon. Once a year the lagoon would be pumped empty and all the sludge would be sprayed onto the fields.

On the day the manure spreader dude would show up all the dogs that lived on the farm, and there were about a dozen, they would go absolutely nuts. It was dog heaven, they would would run for hours behind the manure spreader, eating and rolling in shit and the dead stuff that had fallen into the shit lagoon.

Watching mefites react to a fresh election thread reminds me of the perverse joy of manure spreader day.
posted by peeedro at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [256 favorites]


It's almost three in the morning here in this part of the world. And the wine and popcorn are already gone. But we WILL watch.

We will watch...
posted by Namlit at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't believe they're having the last one in Las Vegas. The first one woulda been okay, but the last one? It seems really suspect somehow.
posted by valkane at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm at work. Someone get drunk for me please.

sure, happy to oblige.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Welcome to the Thirtieth Quadrennial Election Games! May the Odds Be Ever In Your Favor!

*cannons fire*

posted by leotrotsky at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm watching on PBS and it's STILL a whiny real estate roundtable show.
posted by Sara C. at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have hit the point in the semester/ election cycle when I have to be doing something productive with literally every waking moment, so I'm not going to be watching the debate. I'm going to be trying to figure out how to use regular expressions in Python. I'm going to count on you guys and Twitter to let me know about anything really unhinged that happens.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


My son finishes swimming at 6 pm. Then the drive home, with a stop for Mexican food to take home to dinner. See everything and everyone on an hour delay. Go Hillary!
posted by Windopaene at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2016


I'm in a hotel room in Pennsylvania on work travel with asst spa goods (face mask, hand mask ((they make these!)) ) , cheese and beer. Lesss do thissss.
posted by Fig at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2016


Don't forget chat.metafilter.com for moment-to-moment chatter in a crowd of fellow mefites.
posted by uosuaq at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


She's wearing her white Nomination Acceptance Speech pantsuit (or a very similar one).

Looked like different necklines to me. Convention suit had lapels; this suit appeared to be more mandarin-collar style. Open, breezy look versus closed-off neckline like a soldier ready for battle.
posted by sallybrown at 5:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Weyerbacher D'Tango Unchained here. Not to be confused with "Mango Unchained", my favorite orange foodstuff-related Trump moniker.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Especially with the Fox moderator. It's like shitbag debate in shittown hosted by shitforbrains.
posted by valkane at 5:55 PM on October 19, 2016


Actual quote from Texas megachurch pastor supporting Trump: "I don't want some meek and mild leader or somebody who's going to turn the other cheek."

yeah i mean why would you want that that would be ridiculous
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [189 favorites]


It'll all be over soon....it'll all be over soon....right?
posted by Shutter at 5:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


University president man talking up the university: "We're daring and we're diverse."

This diversity thing, it's like it's not even a controversial idea.
posted by zennie at 5:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm loving the white....

"From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, I fought him.
Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
But it was not the end. I felt light in me again.
I've been sent back until my task is done.
And I come back to you now, at the turn of the tide."
posted by BlueDuke at 5:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [47 favorites]


Pitcher of watermelon margaritas, check. Bowl of chocolate-caramel ice cream, check. Let's do this.

I like that Hillary is wearing her white power pantsuit again. She wore it when she accepted the nomination, and she'll wear it again tonight to show off that's she's going to be our next president. I can appreciate the symbolism. (Also, red, blue, and white, one for each debate. )
posted by PearlRose at 5:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


This is going to be like watching a drunken stevedore attempt to make passionate love to the tailpipe of a Studebaker.

Except less dignified.
posted by delfin at 5:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm going to read a Jasper Fforde book and live in fiction for a while. Have fun everyone, and don't let the country burn, okay?
posted by cooker girl at 5:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm not watching, television being known to cause brain damage
but I am reading
posted by philip-random at 5:56 PM on October 19, 2016


Oh no, I'm still going to be babysitting this giant ticking pressure cooker when the debate starts. Chicken stock better be worth it after I strain out the dregs.
posted by joeyh at 5:57 PM on October 19, 2016


Do we think the Trump cast of ghouls was brought in to heckle her Joe Wilson style? What are the odds someone actually interjects from the audience?

Yes and high. I'm more interested in the response of the CPD in terms of potentially pulling the feed or at least muting it and pointing at the backdrop, like during a pitch invasion or a streaker.
posted by holgate at 5:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am lying naked on the couch in my living room waiting for the c-span youtube livestream to begin. if anyone gets too upset by Trump, simply refer to this mental image. You are welcome.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Congrats, USA, we are now officially the WWE of the entire world.

i would sell every last one of you in this thread right to satan for a chance to see hillary hit donald with a folding chair and then give him the people's elbow
posted by poffin boffin at 5:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [116 favorites]


I like that Hillary is wearing her white power pantsuit again

Phrasing?
posted by jammer at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [107 favorites]


Ha! I was just tuning up myTwitter follow list https://twitter.com/florenjust/lists/debate2016

Taking requests folks!

Can't believe how this preshow is all about the weaponization of invitations... and how negative they are expecting it to be.
posted by butterstick at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"they're tricksy, those clintonses, yes, precious, i hates them"
posted by pyramid termite at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]




Argh. I was just robbed (only $150 though), I don't have enough liquor, and my living room floor is just the bare subfloor. Not sure I can handle this unless Trump bursts into flame or something equally satisfying.
posted by aramaic at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


wearing her white power pantsuit again.

Sounds more like something trump would wear.
posted by spitbull at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Actual quote from Texas megachurch pastor supporting Trump: "I don't want some meek and mild leader or somebody who's going to turn the other cheek."

From the article: Donald Trump - who is pro-life, pro- religious liberty

Blech.
posted by iffthen at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016


Rushed home from my medical treatment and am patched up, woozy, armed with orange soda, and ready to go.

Chatted with a nervous HRC canvasser today and reminded him Hillary's got this. And she does.
posted by mochapickle at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Bah Gawd, that's Kaine's music!
posted by cmfletcher at 5:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Talking to my parents earlier, I said, Hillary wore a red suit to debate 1, and a blue suit to debate 2, so surely she will wear white tonight? Yaaaaaay
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]




Only 1.5 hours left of this madness. Let's get through this together.

Wallace is admonishing the crowd. That was highly effective in previous debates.
posted by Justinian at 5:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


If anyone is curious about why the debates start at 6:03, it's clearly because PBS is STILL PLAYING COMMERCIALS FOR MASTERPIECE THEATRE.
posted by Sara C. at 5:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Wallace looks almost as old as I remember his dad, Mike Wallace being. What does that mean?
posted by valkane at 5:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


thanks butterstick !
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2016


What's happening at 3 o'clock sharp? Where is this debate? LOL.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


No hootin' and hollerin'. This isn't an episode of Married With Children.
posted by guiseroom at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


That's a very white audience.
posted by antinomia at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Weyerbacher D'Tango Unchained here.

Anything Weyerbacher is going to be a good choice for the debates. My favorites are sweet and smooth - and have a high ABV.
posted by booksherpa at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2016


It means I'm old!
posted by valkane at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Congrats, USA, we are now officially the WWE of the entire world.

Were we ever not?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Digital artist Ben Snell is baldstreaming the debate, with Trump's hair digitally removed.
posted by moonmilk at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wallace is actually doing a much better job of that admonishment than the previous two admonishers. Probably still won't work, but oh well.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I say Clinton either closes tonight with new oppo droppo or it breaks mid-morning tomorrow (unless something spectacularly good happens for her tonight.)
posted by sallybrown at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016


O'Keefe just said we live in a post-decorum society. How quickly we have adapted to Trump.
posted by Tarumba at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Everyone repeatedly reminding the audience to be silent during the debate is honestly one of my favorite parts of this whole process.
posted by gracenote at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


I got 4 Hands Incarnation and Citywide Pale Ale. They are my new fave local brewery.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Take a shot every time someone says "gamechanger".
posted by Sangermaine at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


After listening to the audience being admonished, I have to ask, why even have an audience? If you have to spend all your time making a big deal out of telling them to shut up, and they still don't listen, just do it without an audience.
posted by zachlipton at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


I am lying naked on the couch in my living room waiting for the c-span youtube livestream to begin.

so, where does the fish go, quonsar?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


For work I have to go through and catalogue a large set of nasty Instagram images, many of which are anti-Clinton memes. Like this one.

This is the backdrop to my debate viewing/listening and thread participation.

On the plus side, I have wine.
posted by Superplin at 6:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Made it home just in time. Bottle of Gamay at the ready.
posted by obliquity of the ecliptic at 6:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Phrasing?

Horribly unfortunate. I'm very sorry; too much margarita, too little comfort with typing on mobile.
posted by PearlRose at 6:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now he's mad because a woman has talked for too long. Sorry, that was the last debate, just calling it early.
posted by adept256 at 6:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


After listening to the audience being admonished, I have to ask, why even have an audience? If you have to spend all your time making a big deal out of telling them to shut up, and they still don't listen, just do it without an audience.

Humans are weird, and having other people in the room changes the dynamic.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Anyone know why these things always kick off at 9:03?

Within a few minutes, yes. They're all scheduled for 9 PM (Eastern, 6 Pacific .)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:03 PM on October 19, 2016


After listening to the audience being admonished, I have to ask, why even have an audience?

Right. Or have mics calibrated [1] so that it's virtually impossible to hear anything but the candidates.

[1] there's probably a more official word for this
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just came in to say good luck, we're all counting on you.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm drinking a Two Kilts Brewing scottish ale, and eating chai masala popcorn, and my wife is with me and our cats are hanging with us, one of 'em nestled right between the two of us and purring like she somehow can't understand that Trump is a general election candidate. Let's go.
posted by cortex at 6:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Tom Brokaw is saying Clinton's job is not to take the bait if Trumpmtries to bait her. (real)

Clinton: Dude, baiting is *my* job! (fake)
posted by Gelatin at 6:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Katy? You ok?
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:04 PM on October 19, 2016


The eagle on the backdrop behind the podiums looks a lot like the Anheuser-Busch logo.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why do they even have a live audience? What's the point?
posted by Sangermaine at 6:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


WHITE PANTSUIT. Well done, mefi
posted by Torosaurus at 6:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Chris Wallace sure is full of himself.
posted by valkane at 6:04 PM on October 19, 2016




They can "walk"?
posted by Namlit at 6:05 PM on October 19, 2016


Dang I hate Chris Wallace's adenoidal squawk. He's explaining the format, it's basically the same as the first. Wallace decided the topics. The audience promised to remain silence but that's been a joke thus far.
posted by winna at 6:05 PM on October 19, 2016


Get in losers, we're all going shopping.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


In the first debate they shook. Second they went near each other. This time it's quite clear, they just went straight to their podiums.
posted by mhz at 6:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


All White pantsuit for HRC. Nice. It conceals the lightsaber well.
posted by petebest at 6:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


No shake. Scotus 1st question.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:05 PM on October 19, 2016


Starting with the Supreme Court. Excellent.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm going to try to keep up with this thread, but y'all are so prolific. I haven't been able to keep up with the last two.
posted by limeonaire at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


First topic the Supreme Court.

'Where do you want to see the Court take the country? What's your view on how the Constitution should be interpreted?'
posted by Panthalassa at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016


Chris Wallace seems to be from another era
posted by Flashman at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's kind of a leading question to ask whether "the Founders' words mean what they say". It's an unfair way to frame that debate.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Mean what they say," what a toad of a question
posted by Countess Elena at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


For the record her lipstick is on point.
posted by prefpara at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Shit first question.
posted by glhaynes at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016


My partner said it's not fair when Hillary goes first because she knows what she's talking about. LOL
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


"What's your view on how the Constitution should be interpreted?"
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016


NO DONALD STOP FUCKING WITH YOUR MICROPHONE HAVE YOU LEARNED NOTHING?!?!
posted by joedan at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump started fiddling with his mic the second Clinton started talking.
posted by winna at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton asks: what is the Supreme Court for? Whom is it for?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's messing with the mike already?
posted by chaoticgood at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


She looks like a billion bucks - perfectly composed and ready. Donald already squinting and moving around. I hate how he slightly shows his teeth once in a while.
posted by sallybrown at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Talking to my parents earlier, I said, Hillary wore a red suit to debate 1, and a blue suit to debate 2, so surely she will wear white tonight? Yaaaaaay

Red, blue, white... That's what, the Serbian flag?
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump needs to stop messing with his microphone.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016


Chris Wallace seems a bit nervous. Poor guy, I can't imagine that kind of stress.
posted by butterstick at 6:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Founders words can mean something and the document still be interpreted flexibly.
posted by Gelatin at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Ooh yeah Donny, you square up that mic. You get that mic right where you want it. We don't want to miss one second of your sniffing.
posted by phunniemee at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


I kind of hate when Hillary answers first because Trump usually takes elements from her answers.
posted by Tarumba at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"If you choose not to remain silent, everything you say can be used against you..."
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


uh, Trump just grabbed the mic and moved it, er, bigly. I believe the candidates were instructed in previous debates not to touch the mics at all.
posted by zachlipton at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace: "The next president will almost certainly appoint" at least one supreme court justice. ALMOST CERTAINLY, with only 8 justices. Maybe he's just being realistic?
posted by zennie at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kind of surprised that Trump is shutting his mouth.
posted by Talez at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016


hey let's all shout NO HANDSHAKE at the same time 1 2 3 go
posted by poffin boffin at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


she's gone full Tilda Swinton with that outfit. Trump looks like he should be staring out of the window of a compound.
posted by any major dude at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Do you believe the Founders' intentions are sacred, or are you a traitor?"
posted by jackbishop at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Stand up for roe v. Wade.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


DONT TOUCH THE MIC DUM DUM
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump can't stop fucking with his mic
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Roommate just pointed out he hasn't sniffed once yet. So if that was part of your drinking game, I'm sorry.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump trying desperately to break his microphone before ever speaking.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]



Talking to my parents earlier, I said, Hillary wore a red suit to debate 1, and a blue suit to debate 2, so surely she will wear white tonight? Yaaaaaay

Red, blue, white... That's what, the Serbian flag?


Is also Pepsi.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy cats, Trump can barely keep his eyes open. He must have dialed back his schneef intake to avoid the sniffing problems from the first two debates.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump squinting. Silently. As HRC answers the Supreme Court question, jab to senate for not confirming Garland.
posted by petebest at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't like the way that Wallace phrased it as being about the Supreme Court "taking" the country in a direction. The SC is fundamentally reactive and not proactive.
posted by dhens at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


HRC would make me so much happier if she answered questions directly (like this Supreme Court "how should they interpret the Constitution?") rather than leading off with an attempt at being generally inspiring. Makes me wonder if I'm just not the typical voter that way, 'cause there's gotta be some reason politicians always do that shit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary's being very forthright and direct and strong -- "this is me, if you like it fine. If you don't, there's the door, motherfucker."
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Moderator: "The first topic is the Supreme Court"

Clinton: "...we need a Supreme Court that will stand up for women's rights and on behalf of the LGBTQ community"... also against Citizens United.

"It's important that we not reverse marriage equality, not reverse Roe v. Wade, stand up against Citizens United..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


My live take: My husband is in the next room over and decided right now was an awesome time to crunch things in the garbage and recycling, unload the dishwasher, wash the dishes... I'm already annoyed and wound up.
posted by limeonaire at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Did Clinton say anything about how on the off chance that the Republicans don't filibuster her nominees she'd like X?
posted by vuron at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016


Hillary wants the Senate to confirm Merrick Garland, it sounds like.
posted by Panthalassa at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Like HRC slamming the GOP about blocking Garland.
posted by dhens at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


My heart is pounding.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


trump is groping the mic
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton: President nominates, Senate advises (or not); but they go forward with the process.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


TRUMP V. RBG. Great.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump gets 30 words in before he starts airing dirty laundry. Who had 30 words in the pool?
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Is it me or does Trump look more pink than orange tonight?
posted by zachlipton at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


All White pantsuit for HRC. Nice. It conceals the lightsaber well.

Well, I was thinking more like a katana.
posted by FJT at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


For tonight's debate we have Gracious Trump.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary's hair is flaaaaawleeeess! 🎵

Trump's hair looks like dirty cotton candy.
posted by zennie at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hahaha he's still mad at Ginsburg and he thinks now is the time
posted by Countess Elena at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Second Amendment!!!! That's all he needs to say
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Within about eight seconds, Trump's answer is already about a woman who didn't speak in ways he approves of. Heckuva job, Donald.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [64 favorites]


She didn't commit to keeping Garland as the nominee.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump seriously sounds ill. He's always kind of gravely but he sounds outright hoarse tonight.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"should my opponent win this race - which I don't think will happen"
posted by mhz at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I like that he's starting mellow because it'll make the crazy seem more pronounced later
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is it just me, or does Trump sound particularly hoarse?
posted by Panthalassa at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump is hitting this one out of the ballpark! Great start.
posted by Flashman at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Fuck, he is obsessed with his victimhood.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump: someone told me to talk about the second amendment if they brought up that big court thing
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hills rolled her eyes at his '20 justices' comment
posted by Torosaurus at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's not gonna sniff, even if it runs down his fucking face.
posted by valkane at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is starting very weak, went onto a derail referring to the insult by Ruth Bader Ginsburg
posted by Tarumba at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ha. Look who's talking about statements that "should never have been made."
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


LMAO at the RBD diss, is he going to threaten to take her off the court?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump looks sick.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary talked about womens righrs, LGBT rights, and citizens rights vs. Corporations rights. Trump talked about 2nd Amendment rights and Notorious RBG badmouthing him.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


The second amendment is under "trauma" according to Trump.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Roommate just pointed out he hasn't sniffed once yet.

Yep. He's awkwardly gulping in air through his mouth like he's never done it before. Countdown to burptown:
posted by Sys Rq at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump sounds nervous as hell.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


stay away from my Notorious RBG
posted by angrycat at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton: articulate, on point, intelligent

Trump: whhhhaaaa?
posted by cooker girl at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump" "The Supreme Court, it's what it's all about....something happened recently where Justice Ginsberg made some inappropriate comments towards me..."

"We need a SCOTUS that will uphold the 2nd amendment...because it's under siege...under such trauma..."

"The justices I will appoint will be pro-life and have a conservative bent..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016


Maybe since many of the founders approved of slavery, owned slaves, and raped them, there are reasons to question whether we should take everything they said as gospel.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [45 favorites]


"We'll have a second amendment that is a very very small replica of what we have now."

I have no idea what he means by that.
posted by winna at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


yes, he does sound hoarse
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: He's hoarse. Very low key - starting slow.

Went after someone who had to apologize in like the second sentence. The court would be a "small replica" of what we have now, but we are all under such trauma (?). I've named justices, 20 of them, tremendous respect, they are conservative, they would interpret the constitution as the founders wanted, I don't think justices should decide it the way they want to hear. The way the constitution was meant to be. (end 2 minute open for Trump)
posted by petebest at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't know if this is crazy/paranoid, but if you listen to Trump's audio it sound like some kind of FX is applied. Perhaps a compressor, noise gate, or some kind of de-esser to cut out the sniffing? And is this par for the course?
posted by druss at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


T.D. Strange: "She didn't commit to keeping Garland as the nominee."

No reason on earth to do so — it won't get her any votes, and it's probably not who she wants in the first place.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah he's very low energy. Noticeably so.
posted by bologna on wry at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump sounds like he's about to keel over. If I didn't know the venue, I would assume he's reading woodenly off a teleprompter like he does.
posted by jackbishop at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016


The Trump Supreme Court has 20 justices.
posted by guiseroom at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


He's fucking with the mic because he sat out the walk through.

DJT - will appoint pro life justices.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


First thing de had to do is to put down a woman. Way to go, buddy.
posted by Namlit at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Of course he has to explain Heller so Trump understands.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


yeah donnie is perhaps in shock.
posted by vrakatar at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump is so low energy. Sad!
posted by defenestration at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


He pivots from the Supreme Court to complaining about apologies? And then hammers on the Second Amendment?

Trump: I've named 20 justices to be nominated. (Real) Like you'll get to appoint that many, jerk.
posted by Gelatin at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Thought for a sec Trump would complain about RGB's shot at Kaepernick but how silly am I getting? Obviously he was thinking of himself. Always.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


30 words? That's 16 more than I expected.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump does realize that this is a debate and not the Festivus "Airing of Grievances" ritual?
posted by vuron at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [40 favorites]


Is Trump declaring vendetta against Justice Ginsburg?
posted by at by at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


God, he's trying to pretend to give a fck about strict constitutionalism and he's just so empty. Literally that American Psycho "inside there's nothing" monologue. Bret Easton Ellis, come collect your dude.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [33 favorites]


"The Constitution the way it was meant to be" sounds like someone talking about a movie "the way it was meant to be seen."
posted by gracenote at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is incoherently stumbling toward an interpretation of the constitution that is focused solely on the founders' ideas.
posted by winna at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016


He said "the justices that I am going to appoint..." and she said, "The type of people I would be looking to nominate..." Tiny thing, but it bugs me when he is incorrect about SO MANY THINGS and she takes such care to speak so precisely.
posted by aka burlap at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [106 favorites]


ok, they kept it clean during the first question, no direct attacks
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016


Maybe he means that he will encourage people to buy derringers to fit a smaller hand.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary looks amazing tonight. WAY better than previous debates. Whereas I saw someone on Twitter (I think?) mention that Trump always looks like he is wearing three suits at once.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


"We'll have a second amendment that is a very very small replica of what we have now."

WHAT IS THIS A 2ND AMENDMENT FOR ANTS?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [111 favorites]


Trump seriously sounds ill. He's always kind of gravely but he sounds outright hoarse tonight.

I bet he's been shouting a lot.
posted by Jalliah at 6:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Moderator: Guns.

Clinton "I support the 2nd amendment."

"But I also believe that there can be and must be reasonable regulation."

"We have 33,000 a year who die from guns." Cites gun show loophole.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Clinton: "You mentioned the Heller decision"...

Trump: *uh oh I have no idea what the hell that is*
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump is cosplaying as a reasonable (if nonsensical) human being. I think he'll slip within 15 minutes.
posted by defenestration at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


She is clear, concise, nuanced and smart. Discussing Heller.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump seriously sounds ill. He's always kind of gravely but he sounds outright hoarse tonight.

Candidates' voices are always in shreds by this point in the campaign. I'm astounded that Clinton's has held up so well-- I'm guessing she has a good voice coach.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I actually felt like Hillary looks a little tired tonight. But I wonder if there's a difference in lighting or angle—I'm watching the C-SPAN feed.
posted by limeonaire at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016


I don't know if this is crazy/paranoid, but if you listen to Trump's audio it sound like some kind of FX is applied. Perhaps a compressor, noise gate, or some kind of de-esser to cut out the sniffing? And is this par for the course?

He's prepping for the 8 minute freestyle beatboxing planned for later.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


>Donald already squinting and moving around. I hate how he slightly shows his teeth once in a while.

That's the cocaine.
posted by Catblack at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


He's been coached. No weird faces. No interruptions. Monotone, quiet responses. He just stands there and looks stern. Cocks his head and looks down his nose at her every once in a while.
posted by zarq at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'm pretty sure mental illness like PTSD wasn't a thing when the 2nd amendment was written.
posted by Tarumba at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Candidates' voices are always in shreds by this point in the campaign. I'm astounded that Clinton's has held up so well-- I'm guessing she has a good voice coach.

It's almost as if taking 2-3 days off the trail before a debate is a good idea and not evidence of inability.
posted by Justinian at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


Great, Chris Wallace throwing it to Trump asking him about Hillary's reaction to DC v. Heller instead of talking about the issue itself. Take that shit to MetaDebate, Chris.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Theory: if Trump manages to stay as even-keeled for the rest of the debate as he did for the first question, he will still lose. When he acts normally, his base (the alt-right) loves it but the rest of the country hates him. When he acts calm and as close to normal as he can, his base hates him for not being a frothing lunatic, and the rest of the country...still hates him because he's shown what a monster he is.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


This second amendment issue is the stupidest question in the world and I hate everything right now.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


IIRC it's more than dozens of toddlers, isn't it?
posted by Countess Elena at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016


He's trying to frame her as the angry one. Interesting tactic there.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016


Last debate, Trump burned through his talking points in about 25 minutes before he went into unhinged free-association mode. Any guesses on how long he lasts this time before ditching his coached responses and starts ranting like a drunken mobster again?
posted by at by at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


OMG he has no idea what the Heller case is. Blah blah upset, blah blah Scalia, wow
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Love how she calls him Donald and not Mr. Trump
posted by sweetmarie at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump conjures the tired ghost of Scalia. Take a drink!
posted by mochapickle at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: "Well, the D.C. vs. Heller decision...she was very angry about it."

"But Hllary was extremely upset and extremely angry. And people who support the 2nd amendment were extremely upset."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's been coached. No weird faces. No interruptions. Monotone, quiet responses. He just stands there and looks stern. Cocks his head and looks down his nose at her every once in a while.

It won't last.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Is Chris Wallace leading Trump?
posted by Talez at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton can maintain her voice because she's using body doubles for most of her events. Sad!
posted by vuron at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


The strangers I'm with at the bar are all noting Trump's lack of sniffing.
posted by rtha at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Looking into Trump's eyes is making me sleepy.
posted by glhaynes at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016


HRC: I support 2A. Can/must be regulation. Support 2A doesn't mean want ppl to threaten or kill ppl. Gun statistics. Background checks. Close gun show loopholes. Sensible reform. None conflict with the 2A. Explanation of disagreement with Heller decision (toddlers away from guns in DC?)

CM: This was the top question asked. Trump, how will you protect 2A, do you believe her?

Trump: DC v Heller she was very angry and Scalia was so involved, and it was a well-crafted decision but she was extremely angry and peopl were very upset with what she had to say

CM: HRC were you upset?

HRC: Yes I was upset because dozens of toddlers are injured with guns. But supporting 2A isn't in conflict of sensible regulation. NRA supports Donald, they're against me, which is too bad that because we can pass reasonable regulation.
posted by petebest at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Supporting regulations is not in conflict with the 2nd amendment. H
posted by Sophie1 at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton can never seem to remember that the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments exist when she talks about the Supreme Court, and that makes me very wary of basically every single one of her race and/or criminal justice and/or incarceration related talking points.
posted by likeatoaster at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump tries to explain how he feels about D.C. versus Heller sounds like an eighth grader doing a book report based on the preview for the movie.
posted by winna at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


SNIFF #1
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's been coached. No weird faces. No interruptions. Monotone, quiet responses. He just stands there and looks stern. Cocks his head and looks down his nose at her every once in a while.

Maybe he's been coached, but I don't think he's capable of sticking to any kind of mental discipline. Hillary has repeatedly shown that she can easily bait him. He'll break down when one of his sore points comes up.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm pretty sure mental illness like PTSD wasn't a thing when the 2nd amendment was written.


I know when it was written, it was illegal to store gunpowder in one's home in Massachusetts.
Seems the Constitution was a Living Document back then.
posted by ocschwar at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ugh the gun subject is taking too long.
posted by Tarumba at 6:14 PM on October 19, 2016


I feel like Trump may have actually prepared for this one.
posted by modernnomad at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


I wonder how long the "composed Trump" facade will last.
posted by Gelatin at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


The sniffing has begun. Just counted two in his word salad on the 2nd Amendment.
posted by vickyverky at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


He got close to a sniff.
posted by valkane at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


Hearing Trump talk about this at all is just making me feel super unsafe in this country.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: [In areas where we have] "the toughest laws and you have tremendous gun violence."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


Oh God. Abortion.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Doubt any voters are changing their mind over this little 2A debate.
posted by kingless at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


Actually, the moderator has been better than I expected in this first segment. He's serving stuff up to Trump as nicely as he can, but he's fair so far.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ooh. Chicaaaago again.
posted by Namlit at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


He's been coached. No weird faces. No interruptions. Monotone, quiet responses. He just stands there and looks stern. Cocks his head and looks down his nose at her every once in a while.

Of course he's been coached, but he's shown himself time and time again to have a complete lack of discipline and, dare I say it, stamina. He won't last 30 minutes before he cracks and go back to his natural dumpster fire mode.
posted by joedan at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: 'I am pro-life and I will be appointing pro-life judges.'
posted by Panthalassa at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016


When it's Trump's turn to respond, he (obviously, because he's a sexist) won't stop talking about how "extremely angry" and "extremely upset" the ruling made Hillary. Hilariously, this just gave more time to Hillary to respond (since he mentioned), then when it was his turn he talked about Chicago. Clearly knows nothing.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


clinton should have focused much more on the 2a during her campaign. it matters A LOT to lots of people
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016


An actual question about Roe!
posted by chaoticgood at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016


Evangelicals are not impressed by his waffling on Roe v. Wade. hahaha.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace is absolutely trying to help Trump do well. I suppose it at least gives him less of an argument to blame the media for his defeat later.
posted by Dr_Janeway at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace: Mr. Trump, you are pro life

Is he? Is he really?
posted by Gelatin at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


3? This isn't the first time he's acted like he can clear 'em out
posted by Countess Elena at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016


Nothing on the Supreme Court happens automatically, son.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


The sniffing has started
posted by danapiper at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016


Oh, Trump. You don't win the suburbs by saying that the court is going to overturn Roe-v-Wade.
posted by Justinian at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow that abortion question dodge. Holy shit. He's choosing his words so utterly carefully.
posted by Talez at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]



WHERE ARE THESE KILLER TODDLERS?

Toddlers are deadly.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


The way followup questions work are good for Trump. He isn't required to stall with two minutes of word salad.
posted by charred husk at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016



Clinton can never seem to remember that the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments exist when she talks about the Supreme Court, and that makes me very wary of basically every single one of her race and/or criminal justice and/or incarceration related talking points.


Yup. I'm voting for her, but the honeymoon ends at midnight on Taco Tuesday.
By noon on Chalupa Wednesday, it's back to civil liberties agitation against her agenda, AFAIC.
posted by ocschwar at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


Looks like we're 15+ minutes in and no interruptions by Trump. No payouts on that betting pool.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Going to go out on a limb here and say Wallace doesn't ask a climate change question, meaning we'll go through the entire 3 Presidential debates without a single question about the biggest issue in human history.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [59 favorites]


The sniffing has begun. Just counted two in his word salad on the 2nd Amendment.
There goes my theory (although the sniffing still seems reduced...)
posted by druss at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2016


Fucking hell. Donald talking about gun violence in Chicago despite their gun laws. It doesn't matter if Chicago has strict gun laws if there are places nearby that don't. They've studied it thoroughly. The guns are coming in from Indiana and states in the South. It's known as the Iron Pipeline.
posted by bluecore at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [56 favorites]


Wallace is actually pretty good, holding trumps feet to the fire.
posted by valkane at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Do you want to see the court overturn Roe v. Wade?"

Trump: [paraphrase] If that happens with the justices I want to appoint, that will happen, then it will go back to the states to decide.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I will defend Planned Parenthood."
posted by sweetmarie at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Snifff
posted by Namlit at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016


DJT: "I am putting pro-life justices on the court."

Not yet.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016


Hillary scores by tying Roe v Wade to decisions about health care. Quite right.
posted by Gelatin at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


I love that she said states are putting restrictions on "women," and not on "abortion."
posted by mudpuppie at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [55 favorites]


Trump is massively coked up, he keeps showing his teeth
posted by Tarumba at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Candidates' voices are always in shreds by this point in the campaign. I'm astounded that Clinton's has held up so well-- I'm guessing she has a good voice coach.

That and iirc her last major speaking appearance was last week, so she's had time to recover her voice while Trump's continued stumping.
posted by at by at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: Before we go further, Chicago has the toughest laws. I'm a big supporter of 2A, I'm proud to have the endorsement of the NRA, don't know if she was saying that sarcastically. We're going to appoint justices that will feel strongly about the 2A

CM: Let's pick another divisive issue and the justice that would come up and that's abortion. Mr. Trump do you want the court to overturn Roe v Wade.?

Trump: If that will happen that would go back to the individual states.

CM: But I'm asking you if you want to see that

Trump: if we put another 2-3 justices on, that will happen automatically because I'm pro life
It will go back to the states.

HRC: I strongly support Roe v. Wade which guarantees the constitutaion right of a woman to amek the most difficult decision I can imagine, but it's not just about Roe v Wade, it'as about states taht are putting stringent reguation that defund Planned Parenthood that supplies cancer screenings. I will defend PP, I wil defend Roe v. Wade, and I will defend a woman's right to make their health decisions. He's said there should be some form of punishment
posted by petebest at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


That was a great answer from Hillary on the abortion question. She knocked that out of the park.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [42 favorites]


I wonder how many abortions Trump has paid for.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [56 favorites]


She should've said women and men can get testing from Planned Parenthood.
posted by limeonaire at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


She's schooling the nation on Roe v. Wade. Yay.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


So far the questions are all serious policy questions. This is extremely impressive, honestly.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Evangelicals have shown that they really don't give a shit about what happens six days of the week as long as you profess to love Jesus on Sunday.
posted by vuron at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Fuck Wallace. "You've been quoted as saying the fetus has no constitutional rights."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald's glass looks giant in his tiny hand!
posted by sweetmarie at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is the Guns, Gays, God, and Abortions debate isn't it? We're 2 for 4 on that so far.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ah, the first needle -- Clinton saying Trump said women need to be abortions.
posted by Gelatin at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016


Mighty fidgety over there. Hand trembling on water glass. I'd feel bad if it was someone else
posted by Countess Elena at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


After two debates of showboating, we're actually getting down to substance in this one. I am impressed.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"partial birth abortion"

Framing. Just, complete crap.
posted by mhz at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Partial birth abortions? Really? Fuck you, moderator.

Her answer is on point but come on.
posted by lydhre at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


I keep asking "who's that dude standing to the left of the President, and why are they letting him talk?"
posted by uosuaq at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


I wonder how many abortions Trump has paid for.

With his money? Zero.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


WTF Chris Wallace? How about lobbing some hard questions at Trump too? (hint: he's not really pro-life) Just because Hillary is more competent in every way doesn't mean Trump should only get softballs.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Vuron, that's a bit uncharitable. No group is all one thing or another. Sure, there are many evangelicals that are crazy and hypocritical, but not all.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Not that much sniffing, but massive jaw grinding, and he's already drinking water
posted by iffthen at 6:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is extremely impressive, honestly.

Wait for it
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: 'I am pro-life and I will be appointing pro-life judges.'

The idea that he may have paid for someone to get an abortion is high on everyone's speculative oppo droppo list. But that's not the kind of droppo that Hillary can do on the debate stage.
posted by holgate at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


KISSY LIPS!
posted by at by at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016


Rip the baby out. What. The. Fucking. Fuck.
posted by Talez at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [42 favorites]


He doesn't get that late-term abortions are for fetuses incompatible with life, does he? Jeez.
posted by vickyverky at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


Wallace trots out that canard about late term abortion and Clinton rightly points out that late term abortion is the "most heart-breaking decision".
posted by winna at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016


>I wonder how many abortions Trump has paid for.

I don't know, but I bet they've been the best abortions.
posted by Catblack at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Wallace throws Clinton what should be a softball asking about her vote against the late term abortion ban, which was monstrous. Clinton's answer is passionate and spot on.
posted by Gelatin at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh boy, one of Carly Fiorina's old hits. This one has gotten doctors killed
posted by Countess Elena at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not crazy about this moderator and his leading questions BUT we aren't talking about emails so I'm OK so far
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hahaha Hillary saying that gov does not belong in that decision, so now Democrats are supporting small government!

I know she's not, but it's weird that conservatives are so invasive
posted by Tarumba at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good use of calling Donald on his "scare rhetoric."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


I was speaking with a local homeowner in Minnesota when he made mention of my (lack) of accent, and I said that I was from the Chicago area. He proceeded to joke about how 'those' people in Chicago all stay there because they can't handle the cold further north. Said homeowner also had a confederate flag near the back of the property.

This is what I hear every single time Trump singles out Chicago for some terrible statistic.

On a related note, I've always heard that Chicago gun laws are mostly moot because they all just pop over from Indiana 15 minutes away. Is that anywhere near correct?
posted by Lykosidae at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm sure the Trump foundation has paid for a few abortions.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


You guys I don't know if I can do this. This is AWFUL. These questions and Trump's responses are just too much.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton: "That is not what happens in these cases."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Ignoring the health of the mother -- he's just going straight to describing babies being "ripped out."
posted by vickyverky at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wow, she's spitting fire tonight. I love this Hillary Clinton!
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


NOT WHAT HAPPENS
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Annnnnd the Trump quotes anti abortion nonsense propaganda, and Clinton contradicts him on it. Good.
posted by Gelatin at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wait, what? I feel like he is massively misinformed about what late-term abortion is. And he is just massively misinforming the nation. Wow.
posted by limeonaire at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


Clinton can never seem to remember that the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments exist when she talks about the Supreme Court
likeatoaster

I think you're referring to support for surveillance programs with the 4th, but how does she oppose due process, the right against self-incrimination, the right to a speedy trial, a fair jury, or the right to an attorney?
posted by Sangermaine at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think Trump just came out against C-sections
posted by Jacen at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [55 favorites]


Who says anything about the "ninth month"?
posted by Namlit at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wallace is hitting Clinton harder, but I think getting some tough questions is playing to her strengths. She is fucking fierce on the abortion questions.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Goddamn, HRC. She is slaying this answer.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Her answers on abortion are excellent.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Every time Wallace poses a follow-up question Trump, he frames it in a way that will lead him to an answer and not an overreaction.
posted by defenestration at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow Hillary is amazing with these answers on abortion.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh, good, here comes the wall. Let's hope he goes over it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Partial birth abortion is not a term!!

I am so grateful to have Clinton speaking up for women and families. And yes for sure, Trump has definitely paid for multiple abortions.
posted by areaperson at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "I think it's terrible what Hillary is saying, that in the ninth month you can just rip the baby out of the womb. That's not okay. On the final day."
Clinton: "Well, that is not what happens, and using that kind of scare rhetoric is just [terrible]."
posted by Superplin at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


CM: you supported ban on late term partial birth abortions

HRC: I voted as a senator because I didn't think that was against Roe v. Wade, that at the end of a pregancy they get terrible news about the pregnancy, I don't think the government should tell a woman what to do.

Trump: if you take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb of the mother you can say that's okay and hillary can say that's okay but it's not okay with me you can take the baby and rip the baby out of the woman on the last day

HRC: That's not what happens and using that scare rhetoric is not appropriate. You should meet with some of these woman that I've met and no one should tell women that have to face these decisions. China used to force abortions, and in Romania and there are placs in the world where women do not have the right.

Trump: Nobody has any business doing what I just said, two or three days before the birth.
posted by petebest at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


great fucking answer Hillary
posted by skewed at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ok. Interrupting the moderator. He's starting to crack.
posted by Talez at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


fuck you Fox, how the fuck does this scumbag get to be the moderator
posted by any major dude at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Clinton is absolutely fiery in standing up for women's right to choose and it is fantastic.
posted by winna at 6:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


As a parent who, with my wife, had to choose a selective reduction to save our twins, we are cheering Clinton here and giving a huge "FUCK YOU" to Trump.
posted by zarq at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [125 favorites]


This is RIDICULOUS. Trump is claiming that abortion happens on the day before a baby would be born. Insane.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hillary's answer about abortion has me so, so proud.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Her answers on abortion are everything.
posted by melissasaurus at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


I love how angry she sounds about the abortion question.
posted by aka burlap at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yeah, no one has business doing what you said because NO ONE IS DOING WHAT YOU SAID with regard to late-term abortion. Gross, Trump.
posted by limeonaire at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Lol. A lot of issues that separate you.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He is so full of shit about abortion. She is super solid.
posted by Superplin at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is this the first mention of the wall that has come up in any of the debates?
posted by wabbittwax at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016


Hillary's defense of Roe v Wade and late-term abortion was beautiful.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump [paraphrase]: "No one has the right to do that [abortion] one or two or three days before birth."

WHAT.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:21 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: "ICE endorsed me." No they didn't.
posted by vickyverky at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]



I'm sure the Trump foundation has paid for a few abortions.


Shitty vindictive me wants this to be the next thing that comes out after this debate but compassionate me does not want any woman who went through that via him to be dragged out in public.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


Wall salad. No policy.
posted by firstdrop at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He is using these grieving women so openly. I hate to think how they will feel when they are discarded
posted by Countess Elena at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: "We have no country without borders."

The first technically true statement he's made ce soir.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Trump just came out against C-sections

Weird for someone who basically is trying to be America's Julius Caesar.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Oh, the Trump verbal diarrhea on immigration. I want to build a wall between Trump's mouth and my ears. I'll even pay for the wall.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


trump is doing relatively good for being trump, though
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016


There's our first good sniff.
posted by Windigo at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


New Hampshire has a real problem with Mexican drug trafficking
posted by wabbittwax at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sniffles are official
posted by mhz at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


First sniff!
posted by box at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh the sniffs are terrible now that he has the mic so close to his nose.
posted by zachlipton at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Don't worry everyone, he's going to get the bad druglords out. The bad hombres.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


We're going to get the bad hombres out.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is about to mention precious bodily fluids. So close.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Bad hombres?! What?
posted by danapiper at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump's cadence is speeding up. The self control is wearing off. And it's Wallace giving him the immigration question doing it. Amazing.
posted by Gelatin at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


CHIN STROKE PREVENTS GUFFAWS.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Immigration is Trump's signature issue and he can't get through a 2 minute monologue without repeating himself 4 times.
posted by pjenks at 6:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


BAD HOMBRES
posted by modernnomad at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


SNIFF!
posted by spitbull at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


CM: Immigration

Trump: She wants to give amnesty. We need strong borders. We have audience members of four mothers - I've gotten to know them - whos' children have been killed by immigrants. Thousands. Drugs are pouring in, we have no country if we have no border. She wants to give amnesty

(Getting a little heated up here)

Trump: They want strong borders, I was in NH the other day the biggest complating is the problems caused by HRC and Obama the big problem is heroin pouring in the borders. We have to have strong borders. Keep the drugs out. We get drugs they get cash. We need strong borders we need absolute we cannot have amnesty. I want to build the wall, they - ICE - we, need the wall we have bad bad people who have to get out we will get them out and secure the border and once we get the wall built we'l get them out and figure it out later.
posted by petebest at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"We have some bad hombres here and we're going to get them out." [real]
posted by vickyverky at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


The sniffing has begun, he's starting to break. Woooo
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


“Bad hombres”? For fuck’s sake.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


First sniff!
posted by rbellon at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes I do think that "unbelievable" is the longest word in his active word supply.
posted by Namlit at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here we go. Twenty minutes is all he can last with his personality on a leash. SNIFF
posted by chaoticgood at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


well ok he's rambling now
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump literally cannot stop being hideously and shockingly racist.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Those answers on Roe v. Wade... Clinton using "healthcare" to describe abortion care, that resonates so loudly. "I do not think the United States government should be stepping in to make those most personal decisions." I see in her jaw and brow and hear in her voice the frustration of a thousand thousand thousand thousand women. It is just so satisfying to see.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [80 favorites]


"We have some bad hombres here."
fucking eat me you dorito crumb piece of shit
posted by phunniemee at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [94 favorites]


Immigrants poison the blood of our youths [paraphrase]

Wow
posted by Golem XIV at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wall salad. No policy.

Walled-off salad, surely?
posted by holgate at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Bad hombres" lol sigh goddamit
posted by dhens at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


And first sniff of the evening.
posted by Gelatin at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016


I was prepared to vote for Hillary because it was necessary to stop Trump, but I can proudly vote for the Hillary who showed up tonight. She just won me completely over in the first 20 minutes.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [56 favorites]


Trump closes with "We have some bad hombres coming here and we gotta get 'em out." Bad Hombres needs to be a mariachi doom-metal band
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]


Seriously furious with him right now. How dare he accuse people of aborting babies a day before they were due to be born. That does not fucking happen you slimy mealy-mouthed asshole motherfucker.
posted by zarq at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [73 favorites]


Apparently Trump thinks New Hampshire has a southern border over which drugs are coming. MASSACHUSETTS, WUT UP.
posted by Westringia F. at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [43 favorites]


Mod note: Reminder that for the sake of this thread's comment count, chat is a great place to e.g. repeatedly shout BAD HOMBRES, regardless of how silly.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


"We have some bad hombres here." I'm just shaking my head.
posted by mochapickle at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's really hard to imagine a better visual example of a person who is in way over their head than Donald Trump talking about New Hampshire's Mexican heroin problem.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


The unknown quantity of Nyquil he's on is not keeping the sniffles at bay.
posted by riverlife at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Shit, many illegal immigrants pay more taxes than you, Trump
posted by Tarumba at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Omfg...bad hombres? Are u kidding me
posted by sexyrobot at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I'm the only hombre you have to worry about, Mr. Trump." [fake]
posted by one_bean at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016


Don't do stats, Hillary. Tell stories.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think this has been Hillary's best debate of the three so far despite an extremely Trump-friendly slate of questions and Trump-friendly framing of those questions.
posted by gerryblog at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton: cogent. Trump: Word salad.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Looking forward to the bad lipreading on that chin rub she just did.

Meanwhile, I did my best to ignore what Trump said, while mentally replaying her awesome answer on abortion. First time I've wanted to stand up and cheer during these debates.
posted by chortly at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump has repeatedly been doing something new for him: opening his mouth to interrupt and then closing it again. This is sort of a remarkable development.
posted by cortex at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [44 favorites]


Reminder: provide context or take it to chat.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Was Clinton writing down points for her answer while Trump was speaking? I was only listening then, but she's clearly glancing down and looking at notes or something while giving this answer.
posted by Justinian at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think they coached him not to interrupt her until the last half. Pretty sure they just figure that's an awesome strategy, he just wasted it in the last two debates by going hard early.
posted by koeselitz at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016


"He choked"

he's gonna have to respond to that
posted by mhz at 6:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


ARE YOU A BAD ENOUGH HOMBRE TO SCALE THE PRESIDENT'S WALL?
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [72 favorites]


Has anyone secured the "Bad Hombre" sockpuppet account yet?
posted by Aznable at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016


he choked!
posted by any major dude at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016


HILLARY has no plan to protect us against the Frito Bandito! I, DONALD TRUMP, will keep our corn chips (we have the best corn chips, let me tell you)... I will keep our corn chips safe, believe me!
posted by entropicamericana at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Someone needs to make a Bad Hombre Trump shirt stat. As we type someone is definitely already on it. Beat them to it, MetaFilter!
posted by Sangermaine at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


HRC: I met a woman here Carla who is worried. I don't want to rip families apart. I don't want to see the deportation force that Donald has talkeda bout . we have 11M ppl undocumented with 4M children, he said weeks ago that . . . . we'd have to have a massive law enforcement presence to round up undocumented and we'd ahve to put them on trains and buses to get them out of our country. That's not who wwe are as a nation and an idea that would rip our coutnry apart.
I voted for border security in the Senate, and my plan of course secures the border but resources need to be put on getting rid of any violent person we shoudl deport them.

When he gets to the wall, he met witht he Mexican president and he choked, the Mexican president said they're not paying for that.
posted by petebest at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Is Clinton's use of "trains" (which are a relatively small part of passenger travel in the US) in relation to deportation supposed to be an allusion?
posted by dhens at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


He choked!
posted by Otherwise at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hombres?! Trump is three for three debates on blatant racism. I actually gasped aloud.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeap, she was taking notes
posted by Tarumba at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016


Baiting out the Mexican president remark. OH MR TRUMP.
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Bad hombres in this country.

BTW, fact check. East coast heroin comes from Asia. West coast comes from Mexico. We know that because of the hiv epidemic spread on the coasts among people who use injection drugs.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Holy hell. Hil with the meta godwin.
posted by butterstick at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


"Hombre" was not in my drinking game rules but it's 2016 so here we are.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Que onda guero Trump?
posted by asockpuppet at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's nodding when she's talking about the ad absurdum example of the law-enforcement presence that would be needed to enforce the wall idea, as if OF COURSE we would want to have police everywhere, combing our schools for illegal immigrants, why wouldn't we want that?
posted by limeonaire at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]




Watching Trump listen to Hillary makes me laugh.
posted by kingless at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy shit he's going for it.
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016


Bad hombres are gonna vote your ass to not so richland, mr. trump.
posted by valkane at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I had a very good meeting with the president of Mexico. Very nice man."

I totally lol'ed.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


She baited him with the trip to Mexico thing and he immediately snapped.
posted by maxsparber at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Who gets to play Bad Hombre on SNL?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump: "Hillary Clinton wanted the wall..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016


She brought up him "choking" in Mexico when talking to the president. Baiting him!!
posted by aka burlap at 6:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apparently Trump thinks New Hampshire has a southern border over which drugs are coming. MASSACHUSETTS, WUT UP.


Maine's governor thinks it's our black community that's supplying the heroin. The kooks really should compare notes.
posted by ocschwar at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Now he's arguing with the moderator. While she laughs. Beautiful.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


He just walked into that, talking about how Hillary voted for a wall.
posted by mhz at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016


Hillary: 'the Mexican President saying "we're not paying for that wall"'

(well avoided use of the profanity in the actual quote)
posted by iffthen at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


DID WALLACE JUST YELL TRUMP DOWN?! FUCK YEAH.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


Hillary slams down the "Trump choked in his big meeting with the Mexican president" card. And for the first time, Trump interrupts Wallace about to *ask him a question*.
posted by Gelatin at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wish when talking about the huge round-up of immigrants, she would mention the increase in the size of the federal government and the massive of amount of money this would take.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, but he can't help interrupting sometimes... not sure how long he can keep up the facade.
posted by koeselitz at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeeahhh...how'd that wall work out for Berlin? Or China, for that matter.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thank you to the people actually doing recaps rather than reacting.
Toddler update: she keeps claiming to have a dirty diaper. Sounds like she might be psychic.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


"We will be doing very much better with Mexico on trade deals, believe me." - Trump

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!" - Ralph Wiggum
posted by bologna on wry at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump has just gone from slightly pale orange to bright red when Wallace wouldn't let him keep talking. In an instant.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


She is bringing it home on his use of undocumented workers and it's beautiful
posted by Countess Elena at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


"The President of Mexico, very nice man, whose name I'm not actually saying because I've forgotten it."
posted by jackbishop at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


Yes I have been vindicated. Her greatest zinger of all delivered on his main issue.

WHEN HE MET THE PRESIDENT OF MEXICO HE CHOKED!!!
posted by bukvich at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


There's your Bigly, bingo players
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Ha ha yes calling out his use of undocumented labor. Better yet, she can MLA cite that off the top of her head if asked to.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


CONSPIRACY THEORY TIME.
posted by Talez at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016


arguing that Obama has indeed deported people? off-brand, dude.
posted by acidic at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary bringing up the "met the Mexican President and he choked" was a pre-planned phrase to poke Donald so he'd lose his cool. And it's working.
posted by bluecore at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


She is visibly angry and I am enjoying it but lord knows how it is playing with misogynists which is most of America.
posted by winna at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


He just trollin' with "bigly" at this point.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary accused Trump of hiring illegal immigrants!!
posted by Tarumba at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: I want to respond to that. Mexico is very nice, we'll do better with trade believe me. Hilary wanted the wall but she never gets anything done, but

HRC: I voted for border security, there are limited places where the wall is appropriate but there's also technology but it's clear that Donald started his campaign that bashes immigrants and he has a different view. I'm also arguing that bringing in undocumented immigrants from the shadows will make them safer. Trump used undocumented people to build the Trump Tower and when tey complained he said he'd deport them.

Trump; Obama has deparoted millions of people but she doesn't want to say that but he's deported millions, bigleague.
posted by petebest at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton: "Donald knows alot about this. He used undocumented labo[u]r to build the Trump Towers."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


Stop trying to make bigly happen. It's not going to happen.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh snap. She is taking him to task for exploiting undocumented workers.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think Faust made a worse deal than NAFTA.
posted by Small Dollar at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Haha. "I want to continue Obama's policies."(not actual quote)
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016


"That's what just happened, big league" - do those words make sense? HE JUST SAID "big league" again. Is that really a thing?
posted by guster4lovers at 6:27 PM on October 19, 2016


Did he just drop 2 "bigly"s in the same sentence?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Out of the shadows! Love it.
posted by Namlit at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


trump abused workers to build his tower in khazad dum
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


This may be relevant only to Springsteen fans like me, but NYC public radio host Brian Lehrer proposed live-Tweeting the debate using only Springsteen lyrics. Please enjoy #BruceTheDebate.
posted by Miko at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


He's not responding to the undocumented working on Trump tower.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


CHRIS WALLACE IS PUSH POLLING.
posted by Talez at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Look at her smile as he loses it.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is Trump trying to demonstrate that he can have self control. And Hillary is needling him juuuuust enough to ... Oooh.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016


I heard two "biglys" but I think I saw his mouth say "big league." Alas.
posted by vickyverky at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016


Oh, is that "bigly"? Terrible either way.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace quoting from Wikileaks now. Told you.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


He DOES say "bigly". Proof.
posted by Namlit at 6:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Unfortunately, Trump's abortion answer is essentially the reason he will get the votes he does. That is the single issue the many Republicans I know vote for, and there's really no changing their minds on it. The best compromise I can imagine is maybe illustrating the efficacy of making birth control affordable and available - I think some reasonable Republicans could be persuaded if they truly believed it would result in far less abortions.
posted by areaperson at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I like how she's already trying to "clear up her position on this issue" and the moderator keeps interrupting her to tell her he wants to do so.
posted by limeonaire at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump is trying out Pence's head shake.
posted by klarck at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016


"Obama deported millions of people... Hillary Clinton wants open borders." Uh huh. Since those are polar opposites, which side are YOU on, Donald?

wish it was open borders, but both of you are cool with deportation, so
posted by koeselitz at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Whoever had Wikileaks on your bingo card, take 3 shots straight.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Wallace fucking push polled that one with making sure to mention that amount she was paid.
posted by Talez at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


OK, how the FUCK is the moderator quoting a Wikileaked speech? And quoting her speaker's fee? Unless he also quotes Trump's fee for speeches, I call utter bullshit.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [38 favorites]


"He choked" was the switch into a diluted version of narcissistic injury protocol.
posted by holgate at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Rules or no rules, I always love it when I see a woman who just keeps on a-talkin' even when a man is trying to stop her.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [86 favorites]


I actually agree with her about Wikileaks/Russia, but I think this is the wrong tactic to respond with.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wtf wiki leaks is an acceptable source now?
posted by Tarumba at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016


Did he just drop 2 "bigly"s in the same sentence?

Adverbs are hard.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I cannot believe that he keeps using the word(s) bigly/big-league in such a venue.

30 minute mark coming up, I wonder if when he's going to implode.
posted by porpoise at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


She needs to get off the Russian thing.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


"The Russian government has engaged in espionage against Americans"—say it! Say that Trump egged them on to do so. C'mon. Here we go.
posted by limeonaire at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Secretary Clinton: Julian Assange says you are a criminal. What kind of criminal are you?" [fake]
posted by uncleozzy at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Argh, don't go off of the Russians.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016


Now we're off the rails. Took 27 minutes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Shut up for america!
posted by jazon at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I like that she's angry, and I like that it seems to have turned her into some kind of a fiery-eyed warrior ice queen.

His anger basically turns him into a rambling sniffling red-faced clown.
posted by invincible summer at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [48 favorites]


Wallace shushing the audience as Trump sarcastically comments on Clinton's "nice pivot."
posted by vickyverky at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


What face is he trying to make?
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wallace hits her on the hemispheric market line from Wikileaks, and Hillary says, "Well, if you read the rest of the sentence...." And then explains how it was an energy question. Says the most important question of the evening is whether DJT will reject Russian espionage and the support of Putin -- we've never had anything like this happen in the election.

Beautiful.
posted by mochapickle at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


I'm stunned that Trump noticed - and identified - Hillary's pivot from the border to Russia.
posted by klarck at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


The Syrian American border. So porous.
posted by firstdrop at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wallace: "This can end up getting out of control."
"GENTLEMEN! YOU CAN'T FIGHT HERE! THIS IS THE WAR ROOM!"
posted by at by at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [50 favorites]


I've got to say this talk of Wikileaks was a terrible response for a debate. She was able to focus on what the actual content was about and yet still went the wrong way.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Interesting, the Russian thing seems to have set Trump off. He's in full ramble mode now.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Aaaaand 28 minutes in and he's back in dumpster fire mode.
posted by joedan at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


If you had nuclear warheads on your bingo card, he's talking about them now.
posted by vickyverky at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016


can you see Vlady's soul Donald?
posted by any major dude at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Donald has emerged.
posted by bologna on wry at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


NO YOU'RE THE PUPPET! Ha
posted by koeselitz at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [42 favorites]


Trump cuts another Clinton ad by shaking his head when she asks if he will condemn Putin and the Russian attempts to interfere with the election.
posted by Gelatin at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016


"You're the puppet. No, you're the puppet." [real]
posted by phunniemee at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [46 favorites]


You're the puppet!

Now I want sock puppets
posted by Torosaurus at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"no puppet, no puppet... you're the PUP-pet"
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


HOLY SHIT. "PUTIN WOULD RATHER HAVE A PUPPET"
posted by Talez at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


Pivot off immigration??? That was a pivot off trade. Trump isn't even paying attention.
posted by yeti at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump, to Kermit the frog: No, YOU'RE the puppet. [fake]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


sniff sniff sniff. wow
posted by dhens at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


And then DJT goes off. The line about Putin was perfect, delicious bait he couldn't resist.
posted by mochapickle at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's starting to crack now...
posted by PorcineWithMe at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wow. He might actually come unhinged tonight. “Choked” earlier and now “puppet” — I think it's her strategy to take tiny jabs at him all night until he's frothing with rage.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump sure didn't like being called a puppet. "YOU'RE THE PUPPET!" "YOU'RE THE PUPPET!"

Is everything Trump says projection or only 90%?
posted by Justinian at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


I feel like if Trump says Putin has no respect for Hillary, it makes him look unpatriotic af
posted by Tarumba at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh man, she called him Putin's puppet and that blow totally landed.
posted by lydhre at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


. . . . . . . person
posted by Sys Rq at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I love how visibly amused she is. It makes her ease so clear
posted by Countess Elena at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


He was doing so well for the first thirty minutes.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wallace is repeatedly trying to interrupt Trump to prevent him in his lunatic wandering. It's working progressively less well as things go along.
posted by chortly at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Eh, reading the back scroll, I don't think she can hammer him hard enough on the Russia thing. Has a presidential nominee ever called for another nation to hack the opposition—and then gotten it? I mean... Hahaha, she got a "No you're the puppet" out of him. Hilarious.
posted by limeonaire at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's "no you're the puppet" is classic YOU KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I?
posted by craven_morhead at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Clinton directly attacks Trump as a puppet of Putin.
posted by winna at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


He always hangs in a Mussolini stance.
posted by vrakatar at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump: (another big leagued);

CM: (Trying to get the crosstalk down) You were paid $25M from a bank and you said your dream was open borders, do you want that.

HRC: You should have read the rest of teh sentence where I was talking about energy and bringing energy across boarders. But since you mention wikileaks . . Russian government gave that to Wikileaks from Putin himself as 17 of our intelligence agencies have confirmed so the most important question of this evening that Trump will finally admit and codemnt that Russians are doing this. That he rejects Russian espionage, that he encourage in the past. We've never had to have this conversation before

Trump: great pivot on open borders there. She wants more people than Barack Obama we'll stop radical Islamic terrorism in this country.

I don't know PUtin, I don't know him, he's said nice things about me. If we can get along well that would be good. He has no respect for her he has no respect for our president, we're against a country with hundreds of nuclear warheads and she's playing chicken . . .

HRC: Because he wants a puppet for President

Trump: No puppet! No Puppet! . . You're a puppet

HRC: You'll sign up for the Putin line, sign up for his wish list . . . this is an unprecendented situation we ahve 17 intelligence agencies taht these espionage attacks come from the hightest levels of the Kremlin designed to influence of the election

(Crosstalk)
posted by petebest at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


He'd rather have a puppet. Boom.

(and Trump goes third grader -- no you are)
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


"He [Putin] said nice things about me." Trump (real)

This is what matters to this man.
posted by cooker girl at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


"YOU'RE A PUPPET, NO, YOU'RE A PUPPET."

Seriously, he is so easy to bait it's untrue.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


The pivot was brought about by Wallace.
posted by tommyD at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016


If the audience aren't allowed to make any noise whatsoever without getting told off, what exactly was the point of having them there in the first place?
posted by dng at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


His frown goes way past the edges of his lips. It looks drawn on.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think she prepped for the split-screen by watching Kate McKinnon's "look at the unhinged person" bits. Or by getting Kate McKinnon to stop by and help her with her prep sessions.
posted by holgate at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


Did he just drop 2 "bigly"s in the same sentence?

Adverbs are hard.


Speed, meth, shake, jerk
Fucking adverbs, how do they work
posted by iffthen at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


She keeps pressing the cyber espionage. That's a great response. It's exactly what we should be focusing on.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well folks, it was a valiant attempt at a reasonable debate. Too bad it didn't last.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary, things were going great until you mentioned Russia. You don't need to attack.
posted by charred husk at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016


HOLY SHIT HE'S TAKING IT.
posted by Talez at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


And Trump went NO YOU'RE A PUPPET

YOU'RE A PUPPET

I cannot stop thinking about towelie
posted by Tarumba at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Wow, Hillary raising her voice was excellent. Reminds me of the Benghazi hearings.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


To Wallace's credit, he's not letting either candidate bowl him over.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Once again Trump is dancing to Clinton's tune. She says he'd be a Russian puppet -- rhwtoric that takes me back to my Cold War childhood -- and Trump says "no puppet! No puppet!"
posted by Gelatin at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've figured out Trump's internal dialog that explains his constant microphone adjustments. "You know I’m automatically attracted to microphones—I just start adjusting them. It’s like a magnet. Just adjust. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."
posted by nathan_teske at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


"No, you're a towel!" [fake]
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Damn. Donald is screaming at Chris Wallace
posted by Sophie1 at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm not convinced she's taking the wrong tack with the Russia thing.
posted by glhaynes at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


"Putin is not my best friend." [Real]
posted by Torosaurus at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Look at Clinton's smile! She's grinning while Trump is ranting.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


"She doesn't like Putin because Putin has outsmarted her at every step of the way." Uh.
posted by limeonaire at 6:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


It seems like Wallace is trying to interrupt Trump and shut him up when he goes off on his most ridiculous tangents. Am I reading this right?
posted by phunniemee at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Of course I condemn! I don't know Putin!" [real]

I thought they were buddies?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


That was a great excuse to pull out my puppet's twitter account (yes, an actual fleece puppet). Thanks Trump!
posted by guster4lovers at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016


Oh my god. That is the clip.
posted by Flashman at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Remember when Trump was all proudly telling us how he knew Putin (so he looked like he knew foreign policy) because they were "stablemates" on a tv show?
posted by zachlipton at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


"He doth protest too much" about Putin. I think Trump has a man crush on Putin.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump went crazy in the last third of the first debate, and the first third of the second debate. I guess we should've figured he'd go crazy in the second third of this debate.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's so defensive. It's just delicious.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


I guess Hillary knew what she was doing. She's certainly pressed Trump's buttons.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


He does not like Hillary laughing at him.
posted by sporkwort at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


The partial-birth abortion answer got another donation out of me, but I may have jumped the gun, judging on this puppet thing. Tonight could get expensive.
posted by rewil at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Did anyone have 9:34 on the first "wrong" interruption?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Softball: Mr Trump are you against Russian cyberattacks/espionage?
posted by klarck at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016


"Putin has outsmarted you." Projection for fifty points.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Mr. Wallace, we cannot allow for a nuclear weapon gap.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016


Apparently Russia took over the Middle East while we weren't looking per Trump.
posted by winna at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


The great thing about her new confidence is that she's willing to allow the Righteous Anger to show. It's great. I wish rampant sexism hadn't forced her to keep it under wraps for so long.
posted by chortly at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [40 favorites]


Such praise for Putin!
posted by Flashman at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yayyy Trump started interrupting with WRONG!

Insane idiot.
posted by Tarumba at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton: "This is a person who's been really cavalier about use of nuclear weapons ..."

Trump leans in to mic: "WRONG" [real]

Best Alec Baldwin move I've seen.
posted by vickyverky at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [110 favorites]


I think Trump is hurting himself with the moderate voters right now and Clinton is lucky he's going ape as a response to her bait. If he kept it calm like he started out then she would be eating the Wikileaks response tomorrow.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"She has been outsmarted and outplayed worse than any person I've seen in government"—she just looks at the camera and smiles. Ahh, I can't wait to see Kate McKinnon do this on Saturday.
posted by limeonaire at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


The first "wrong" interjection, I think.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016


I mean, I feel like I just saw Trump compose an oral love letter to Putin. That can't be good for him, and I am flabbergasted that Clinton managed to get him to do it.
posted by maxsparber at 6:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump just wiped sweat off his upper lip
posted by any major dude at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: "I have 200 admirals and generals endorsing me...we're being ripped off by other countries..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: "You're out of order! This whole courtroom is out of order!" [fake]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


"She has proven to be a liar"

"Well, I'm just quoting you..."
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [42 favorites]


It's "Pooot'n" apparently.
posted by Namlit at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016


"you're not gonna find a quote from me"
is the next Hillary ad, it will be out before the end of the debate, I think.
posted by mhz at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


He's bringing up this "rip off" thing again. He did that in a previous debate. It's weird that he's so fixated on the idea that our allies and treaty partners are cheating us.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wow, Hillary raising her voice was excellent. Reminds me of the Benghazi hearings.

Her tone at the previous debates was so level and professional, and I think this is working too. Her passion is an excellent contrast to Trump's unhinged ranting.
posted by gladly at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


"PUPPET" was clear the signal word they Manchurian-Candidate-ed into his brain as a trigger to make him melt down and forget that he was trying to avoid interrupting her.
posted by koeselitz at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [64 favorites]




He's going to crack -- look at his neck muscles. He's trying to hold back the anger but is failing.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is so great on split screen.
posted by joedan at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: She' doesn't like PUtin because Putin has outsmarted her at every turn!

CM: The top national security officals have said that, do you condemn any interference by Russia

Trump: By Russia or anybody else. I don't know Putin?! This is not my best friend, but if we got along with Russia it wouldn't be all bad. Whether it's Syria . . if . . . take a look at the startup they signed, they create warheads and we can't she has been outsmarted by Putin - lok at the middle east and they've taken over. She's been outsmarted and outplayed

HRC: I find it ironic that he's raising nuclear weapnos he's been cavalier about nuclear weapons he's said we have them why don't we use them, the bottom line is that when the President gives the order it must be followed. There's about 4 minutes between the order and launch that's why the 10 people who have had that responsibility have come out in an unprecedented way to say they don't trust Trump with the nuclear button

Trump: I have 220 generals and military officials backing me. China is getting the bargain of the century because we can't continue to defend Saudi Arabia she's been a liar and prove it over again

HRC: Just quoting you saying nuclear defense, you're on your own, Donald wants to tear up the treaties I think we're only going to make the world safer
posted by petebest at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


On to the economy.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:36 PM on October 19, 2016


Good golly, Trump is *actually confirming* Clinton's characterization.

Trump: she's a liar

Clinton: I'm just quoting you.

She sounds tough.
posted by Gelatin at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm so glad this dick isn't gonna be president.
posted by valkane at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton: "...the Kremlin."
Trump: "see, she doesn't know if [the espionage] is Russia or China!"

[Real]
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


The temperament and fitness question is last, isn't it? Wallace didn't put it there by accident. Will the last sight of Trump by tens of millions of people be a complete meltdown? I hope, I hope.
posted by Justinian at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016


Did he start saying "I don't have any idea who Putin is" in there, around when the puppet comments were coming out? I definitely heard "I don't have any idea -" and then he switched to a different sentence.
posted by you could feel the sky at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Again, Wallace on the economy is just feeding Trump talking points through his questions, giving his scatterbrain mind something to focus on.
posted by zachlipton at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016


This moderator is awful. Completely leading questions.
posted by peacheater at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Hmm, it's called allies. We have a lot of allies. This is bad?

Trump: "She's been proven to be a liar in so many different ways, this is just another lie. ... You're not going to find a quote from me."

Oh, there are lots of quotes from you, dude.
posted by limeonaire at 6:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The left hook was "choked."
The upper cut was "puppet."

Put him on the mat, Hill.
posted by bluecore at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [34 favorites]


Again, Wallace on the economy is just feeding Trump talking points through his questions, giving his scatterbrain mind something to focus on.

It may be, but he's not doing well with any of these supposed softballs if so.
posted by limeonaire at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump taking notes while Clinton talks about helping small businesses, raising national minimum wage, equal pay for equal work.
posted by vickyverky at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wallace might have lobbed some softballs but I think he's doing a great job of keeping the debate (relatively) on track and under control. He's not afraid to shout Trump down and stop Clinton when needed.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Now that he's blown up she can calm back down, slow down the pace, let him continue to shake himself to pieces like an out-of-balance clothes dryer.
posted by penduluum at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


Wallace having a bit of a David Cross Pre-Taped Call-In Show moment.
posted by migurski at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Clinton *brings up* climate change. At last.
posted by Gelatin at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump just took a note. Has he ever taken a note before?

Maybe it's just a drawing of boobs.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [38 favorites]


This is moving on, but I just wanted to flag the "Of course I condemn" statement by Trump. He will not come out and say "I condemn X" - he will only say "I condemn." This was true for the KKK and David Duke, and it's true for Russian interference.

What a childish tic.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


Hilldog feelin' the Bern!
posted by dhens at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


good god, can we get a moderator that asks some questions that aren't a retread of debate 1 & 2 questions?
posted by bologna on wry at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


When the middle class thrives, America thrives. Raise minimum wage. Energy jobs. Equal pay. Preschool. Apprenticeship. Free tuition. Bernie sanders. Again. Killing it.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


"I want to make sure women get equal pay for the work we do."

"We."

It matters that there's going to be a woman in the White House.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [195 favorites]


Lol, pendulum, that mental image <3
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016


I'm kind of annoyed at how the moderator is interrupting Clinton when she's in the middle of talking. He lets Trump finish which seems a bit off. Yeah he has interrupted Trump as he was interrupting but it's like he won't let Clinton finish a comment a few of these times.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016


His "we are being ripped off by Japan(on security)" line goes all the way back to 1987!!!
posted by Yowser at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016


If you need some election mood-lightening, Owen Ellickson's take on the behind-the-scenes maneuverings of the Trump campaign are hilarious, and very, very long: Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3 - Part 4 - Twitter
posted by JHarris at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


I cannot believe how bad he is at this. The "open borders" was such an easy jab for him, but because she mentioned Putin, he completely lost the thread. He even started talking about her pretty clumsy pivot, and then immediately took the bait.
posted by one_bean at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Women should get equal pay for the work we do."

WE. For the work WE do. Somehow, that hit me really hard. Not the work THEY do. We. Us.

On preview: damn.
posted by workerant at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [67 favorites]


"Trickle down economics on steroids".

Doesn't she mean.... TRUMPED UP trickle down economics? Are we not doing that anymore?
posted by Justinian at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump's notes are

<3 Mr. Donald Putin

Donald Trump Putin

Vladimir Trump <3
posted by Tarumba at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [48 favorites]


Man, Trump is an absolutely shit poker player when it comes to conversations about Russia. The only topic that he takes more personally are actual personal attacks.
posted by at by at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Guys there was just a new Wikileak release. Turns out Lorne Michaels donated $200,000 to the DNC in order to get that puppet remark into the exchange for an idea for a new SNL skit. [fake]
posted by Talez at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump: "Her plan will double your taxes."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Does anyone have a list of things that haven't been covered yet in any of the debates? I haven't been keeping track, but after each debate I keep seeing people post lists of topics that didn't get hit. If anyone's got it, post it, please!
posted by limeonaire at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016


TRUMP IS DOUBLING BACK TO DEFENSE. HOLY SHIT THIS DEBATE.
posted by Talez at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ack. Why did she double down on "trickle down on steriods"
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I LOVE that Clinton said "I want women to get equal pay for the work WE do." Not 'they'.......we. I'm enthralled.
posted by but no cigar at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Back on the allies cheating thing again? What's his deal with this? Why is he returning to this?
posted by Sangermaine at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Our dog needs a walk and we are considering holding her over the toilet and hoping she figures out toilet training.

Also, Wendy Davis just posted about manterupting which is amazing.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [33 favorites]


"We're protecting them and they have to pay up?" What?
posted by Sphinx at 6:40 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump starts off by lying about Clinton's tax plan. Nice.

And then he goes back to the earlier topics. Sheesh.
posted by Gelatin at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


He is pathologically incapable of not having the last word.
posted by Talez at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


One of my good friends is an ivy-educated SLAC history professor. During the debates, she lets her 10-year old son take over her Facebook, so I'm enjoying watching "her" post things like "Putin this Putin that Putin Bla Bla Bla Build a Wall Bla Bla Bla SHUT UP Wrong" and hearing them in her voice.
posted by bibliowench at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [72 favorites]


If you haven't seen this, it's worth seeing: John Green breaks down both the Clinton and the Trump tax plan.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"We're gonna do a lot of things for college tuition but the public's gonna be paying for it." [real]

"We protect Saudi Arabia, but why aren't they paying?" [paraphrase that NATO are paying up and he deserves the credit for it] [real]
posted by vickyverky at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


I'm kind of annoyed at how the moderator is interrupting Clinton when she's in the middle of talking. He lets Trump finish which seems a bit off. Yeah he has interrupted Trump as he was interrupting but it's like he won't let Clinton finish a comment a few of these times.

Wallace is the face of FOX, he's not here to help Clinton.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump still going on about NATO slouches.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


If it weren't for the way he is framing questions I'd say Wallace has done the best moderator job so far.
posted by charred husk at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


His regime.
posted by valkane at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait... Trump is saying that his plan is to ask other countries for money? For welfare?
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: [paraphrase] Apparently, because Trump brought it up, NATO countries have started "paying."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


He's going back to the previous arguement? WTF.
posted by lovecrafty at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump just took a note. Has he ever taken a note before?
Maybe it's just a drawing of boobs.


probably more of a Jackie Treehorn thing
posted by philip-random at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Guy needs to get [verbally] slapped. I can easily see how his confident interruptions could be read as "winning" by way of some kind of blunt machismo-admiration. I really don't like how the moderator and Hillary both let him do that. It's shitty and yet it appeals to assholes whose votes could be handy in punishing his ego for the remainder of his life.
posted by constantinescharity at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


oh god trump returns to the question of allies
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


The economy is supposedly "his issue" and for some reason he is going back to foreign policy? He is coming unglued.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


"Economy, Mr. Trump. Your thoughts?"

"NATO! Let's get rid of it!"
posted by jackbishop at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


He keeps going back to paying fair share for NATO. Does anyone care about who is paying for NATO? I've literally never heard the gripe before the debates.
posted by craven_morhead at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


Sorry, the moderator just went AWOL for this rewind to the previous question by Trump.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


By the way, every other debate moderator should be ashamed that the Fox News debate (alone) is staying largely on topic and on policy through the halfway mark.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


We're protecting them and they have to pay up? What?

Is he talking about international extortion? I am so lost, honestly. I thought we were talking about the budget.
posted by danapiper at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh please, please, please, turn this around talk of protection rackets to his mafia connections.

Also, is it cool that Obama has had a regime?
posted by mhz at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump is making alliances and coalitions sound like a protection racket.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Aha. Waffle is finally starting. Donaldwaffle.
posted by Namlit at 6:41 PM on October 19, 2016


OK, he must have done a stealthy coke bump in there with one of those sniffs.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016


Oh gawd. Obama's Regime. Trump is going full on stupid. That's another "your President" moment.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"We're going to do a lot of things to college tuition."

Uh oh.
posted by Deathalicious at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Ah cool, he'd gone a while without patting himself on the back for something, so I guess it was about time. "MY plan..." etc.
posted by limeonaire at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace asked Trump about his economic plan, and Trump is talking nonsense about defence.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016



I'm kind of annoyed at how the moderator is interrupting Clinton when she's in the middle of talking. He lets Trump finish which seems a bit off. Yeah he has interrupted Trump as he was interrupting but it's like he won't let Clinton finish a comment a few of these times.


I interpret this as him believing that she has answered the question effectively and is respectfully following up for more information ( so she gets more points in the same time).

With Trump, he's just just letting him talk for the allotted time then telling him to shut up.
posted by ethansr at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Does Trump know that Japanese people can watch this? Why is he saying we can't be nice to them because they need to pay up?

And wtf do they need to pay for?
posted by Tarumba at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


He still sounds like a fifth grader, but this is his best performance.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


One of my good friends is an ivy-educated SLAC history professor. During the debates, she lets her 10-year old son take over her Facebook, so I'm enjoying watching "her" post things like "Putin this Putin that Putin Bla Bla Bla Build a Wall Bla Bla Bla SHUT UP Wrong" and hearing them in her voice.

I'm a Big Ten-educated Community College history professor and I approve this message.
posted by dhens at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


It's cool guys, she can speak Donald.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Heh, Trump doesn't realize he just insulted himself with that "You can't" remark.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


"We're going to terminate NATO."

That's one of the most insane things he's said so far
posted by schadenfrau at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


I feel like there are just way more things to do as president than renegotiate done deals. But maybe that's just me.
posted by limeonaire at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


No one can.
posted by ethansr at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016


"Let me translate that if I can, Chris."
"YOU CAN'T" (Sniff)
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump: "We're going to terminate NAFTA and make new deals".

What?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anyone else enjoy the sly burn with Clinton mentioning "real apprenticeships"?
posted by Rumpled at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [40 favorites]


His cadence just keep getting faster.

Also too: the preisdent can't unilaterally terminate NAFTA or any other treaty.
posted by Gelatin at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton, responding: "Let me translate that for you."

Trump leans in to mic: "You can't." [real]
posted by vickyverky at 6:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


Trump: [incoherence]
Hillary: "Let me translate that if I can"
Trump: "You can't"

[real]
posted by iffthen at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [53 favorites]


Man, when he said "Obama's regime" her eyes flashed.
posted by aka burlap at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"YOU CAN'T TRANSLATE CRAZY!!!"
posted by limeonaire at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Is Saudi Arabia even in NATO?
posted by misterpatrick at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, don't say 'when my husband was president.'
posted by Windigo at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump: akdfhaihfsdoadhfoadfhaod
Hillary: Let me translate that
Trump: you can't!

Trump's campaign: *facepalm*
posted by Tarumba at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


Trump: *world salad about the economy*
Clinton: well, let me translate that if I can [real]

Lol
posted by lydhre at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Obama cut the debt by 2/3. You do that by investing in people.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


CM: let's move to economy. You have different ideas. Taxes, regulations, Mr. Trump why will your plan create more jobs and your opponents plan will not.

HRC: When the middle class thrives America thrives. New jobs and clean energy to fight climate change and create new businesses. Small busineses will supply 2/3 of the new jobs. Raise the minimum wage. Women shoudl get equal pay for the work we do. Education should go from pre school to college, more technical colleges, make college debt-free and families making less than 25,000 there's no tuition if our plan is enacted (worked with Bernie sanders). The Wealthy will pay their fair share, corporations will make a greater contribution, experts have analyzed the economy will raise by 10 . . . . Donalds plan has been analyzed and will cost us jobs and possibly lead to a nother great recession.

Trump: first of all, her plan is going to raise your taxes and it's a disaster, and you can say all you want about tuition, but the rest of the public is going to be paying for it there's a massive tax increase under HRC> But I'd like to start off where we left, Japan and Germany, Saudi Arabia they have nothing but money, why aren't they paying - since i"ve said it they've started to pay up - I'm a big fan of NATO - she says she loves our allies but we have to say they have to pay. They have to pay. Doing Obamas regeime we've doubled our national debt, we'll have more free trade than we have now under my plan we're going to renegotiate our all trade deals. Our jobs have fled to Mexico and I'm going to renegotiate NAFTA, and if I don't make a great deal we'll terminate it and go a separate way becasue it's a disaster. Cut buseinss taxes massively, bring 2.3 T back into the country becasue our 1% GDP

HRC: Lemme translate that

Trump: You cant

HRC: I have said repeated ly I wil not raise taxes on anyone making $250k or less, I'll add not one penny to the debt, he'l add 20 T to the debt. We know how to get control the deficit (stories about Bill's admin cutting the deficit) Obama has cut the deficit by 2/3 one of the ways you do that is by investing in people is by skills training, a pro-eductation will work, cutting taxes on the welathy will not work.
posted by petebest at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


She completely baited Trump into an attack on Bill in the economy rebuttal. T-minus 1 minute until Bill's affairs.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Forcing our allies to pay for us to keep our treaties with them? C'mon, Hillary, say it: "America is not a protection racket."

[not a thing she has said, a thing I wish she'd say]
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


trump is trying to communicate in International Pouty Lips
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


WHAT THE FUCK IS WALLACE DOING
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't even get how this is happening. He's so fucking gross.
posted by chococat at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Donald chimes in while Chris Wallace is doing the hit job on Clinton, because he isn't smart enough to let the moderator do his work for him.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


Wallace cuts her off with a lie, Trump: "Correct". Wallace: "Thank you Sir."
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


I've watched the first ~35 minutes of this debate with no sound and no captioning, because Wednesday is my pub trivia night, so my audio has been either trivia or the Cubs- Dodgers game. Having no idea what they're saying, and judging only by their facial expressions and body language: Trump seems to be falling asleep whenever he's not talking, and half the time he is.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sugar dip for the Donald. Concentration gone. Astonishing that there actually was some to begin with.
posted by Namlit at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump manterupts Wallace (!!!)
Wallace: "Thank You Sir." [real] (may I have another?) [fake]
posted by dhens at 6:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Thank you sir? Chris Wallace is a fucking shill
posted by any major dude at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wallace doesn't even try to pretend he's impartial.
posted by kewb at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Poor fact checkers have to check the fucking moderators now.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wallace: "ARE YOU ACTUALLY OBAMA IN A MASK?!" [fake]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chris Wallace is a fucking nasty little shit.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


WHAT THE FUCK IS WALLACE DOING

Exactly what he's paid to do, cleverly frame the questions as Clinton attack lines.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump's mic fiddling must be some kind of tell.....
posted by but no cigar at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wallace cuts her off with a lie, Trump: "Correct". Wallace: "Thank you Sir."

That was actually Wallace doing a good job. It was very clearly a "shut up, moron" remark.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [34 favorites]


H: "President Obama saved the economy. He doesn't get the credit he deserves."

Would you say he doesn’t get enough credit for all the credit he gave us?
posted by zachlipton at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [64 favorites]


His hand was trembling with that sip of water.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary: "Obama doesn't get the credit he deserves" for inheriting and turning around a bad economy. Preach.
posted by mochapickle at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


Chris Wallace is holding Donald's hand through this whole debate.
posted by Anonymous at 6:45 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump just took a note. Has he ever taken a note before?

Same thought. I don't think so. It felt like definitely the first time I've ever seen evidence that he can write.

Trump's language is so fascinating to me, as gross as he is. The way he can't speak in anything but extremes. Everything is great, massive, huge, best, big league*, or on the other end, a disaster, worst, worst EVER.

His rhetorical tactics are that of a grade-school playground bully.

He's trying to do that "I'm grabbing the mic 'cause I'm so ready to respond" thing like he's in a rap battle, except this time it's not a large-penis-sized mic but a weensy little podium mic on a flex cable, which he has to manipulate with his tiny hands, and he realized it's not a good look and stopped.

|**Though it's not obvious to people unfamiliar with his particular flavor of fatuous NY accent, he is saying "big league," and always has been, though it's hilarious to suggest it's "bigly" because it gets his goat.
posted by Miko at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


So Trump's plan creates jobs *over a 10 year period*... Doesn't he realize he gets 8 years max?
posted by iffthen at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


she needs to start referring to him as P.T Barnum
posted by any major dude at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wallace: "Mr Trump, even conservative economomists say you plans don't add up...your response?".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Having Wallace here at all is a joke. He's a smarter Sean Hannity.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


IT'S A LOW NUMBER BECAUSE THEY'RE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, YOU IGNORANT FUCK
posted by Anonymous at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016


DJT says he "just left some high representatives of India." What?
posted by mochapickle at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump's refusal to accept intelligence briefing on Russia stuns experts

"Former senior U.S. national security officials are dismayed at Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump's repeated refusal to accept the judgment of intelligence professionals that Russia stole files from the Democratic National Committee computers in an effort to influence the U.S. election."

Who's the puppet, indeed...
posted by dhens at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Guys, calm yourselves. "Thank you, sir." was a rebuke. Not a connivance.
posted by Justinian at 6:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


Yes! Clinton is givjng Obama his due credit for saving the economy, and contrasting investing in the middle class with what she rightly terms the failure of top down.

And Wallace follows by pointing out conservative economists say his projections are unrealistic.

And Trump compares the growth with developing economies of India and China?
posted by Gelatin at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


China is growing because they are making Trump ties
posted by any major dude at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


"I've made a lot of friends over the last year." Oh, and lost so many.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I've developed so many friends over the last year and they cry...

WTF?
posted by Sophie1 at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel like Clinton should have gone harder on disagreeing with Wallace's premise there, that the stimulus made things worse. Appearing calm is smart but there's room there to tell people the truth, not accept the premise.
posted by penduluum at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't know what I would do without you guys. And this mezcal. And the tacos I just ate. And the bar full of people of color where I'm watching this horror show. (And gingerbeer, who is out of town but on text.)
posted by rtha at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


"do you really want to bring in fact checks?" [fake]
posted by mhz at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"...before NAFTA kicked in, but it didn't really kick in" WTF ARE THE WORDS COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH RIGHT NOW.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016


On my HDTV, it's pretty clear Donald's forehead is sweating profusely. Not Nixon levels yet, but there's still 40 minutes to go.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


One of the biggest of false equivalencies is thinking Fox News is an important alternative voice. They aren't journalists.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's fully in stump speech mode.
posted by butterstick at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016


Hillary looks like she's got a good answer for this nonsense answer on NAFTA and jobs.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016


So Trump's plan creates jobs *over a 10 year period*... Doesn't he realize he gets 8 years max?

The 10th Year of the Trump Imperium will bring glory to us all.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


"I'll be against it when I'm president!"
posted by areaperson at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Only one of us on this stage who has shipped jobs to Mexico" [real]
posted by rtha at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


Stop trying to make "trickle down" a thing.
posted by Yowser at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


HRC: "I'll be against it when I'm president" --> PREACH.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm not watching but have it on mute and am refreshing this thread, I think I am doing it right.
posted by zutalors! at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"The Trump Hotel in Las Vegas was made with Chinese steel .. he goes around with crocodile tears" BURN.
posted by vickyverky at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


he's constantly blaming her for her husband and Obama, what doesn't Hillary every blame him for Bush?
posted by any major dude at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton: "Donald has bought Chinese steel..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is saying China and India are growing at 7-8% and we're terrible in comparison. That's...nonsensical. Of course your economy grows faster when you have hundreds of millions of people who are able to buy basic modern consumer products for the first time. That's why they call them emerging markets. We've emerged, for better or for worse.
posted by zachlipton at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [51 favorites]


he is saying "big league," and always has been

He is saying "bigly," we all hear it. If he *means* to say "big league," he's failing. We all stumble on our words from time to time, most of us are humble enough to admit that we said the wrong word.
posted by explosion at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


@KellyannePolls: --- >

No fucks to give any more, also: got paid up front.
posted by holgate at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


"They totally fact-checked her, and I was right" -- He's super happy about that "TPP gold standard" statement from Hillary, which isn't that straight-forward.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Agreed that Fox jasn't earned being considered journalists by moderating this debate.
posted by Gelatin at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016


Why would she blame him for Bush?
posted by zutalors! at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: "Excuse me, my turn." [real]
posted by uncleozzy at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


YES KEEP AT IT CLINTON!!!!
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


No, this is good, you guys. Let's be real; the other moderators did lean the other way. Clinton needs to demonstrate that she can do this even when the questions are framed according to the Fox worldview, and Wallace is giving her a fair chance at that.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [46 favorites]


HRC: "There's only one person on this stage who has shipped jobs to Mexico, and that's Donald. In fact, he's shipped jobs to 12 other countries."
posted by mochapickle at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Illegal dumping of Chinese steel and aluminum into the country. Indeed, the trump hotel in Las Vegas is made with Chinese steel aND aluminium.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


CM: Obama's simulus plan has lead to the slowest GDP growth since 1949

Trump: Correct!

CM: *snickers* thank you sir

HRC: Obama inherited a reall touch-and go situation, I was in the Senate I've never seen people physically distraught as the Bush team because of the economy. Obama saved the economy, he doesn't get the credit he deserves, but it was a very deep recession and we're still walking not running. Top down doesn't work. What I"ve put forward doesn't adda penny to the debt but it lets peple take new jobs, higher paying jobs we've got to do more to get the whole economy moving.

CM: Economists say your plan doesn't add up. It's unrealistic.

Trump: I jsut left some representatives of India, growning at 8%, China is 7%, we're growgin around 1%. It's going down. Terrible jobs report last week, it was so bad. Terrible. Our country is stagnant. We've lost our busiensses, we're not making things any more, our product is pouring in fro China and Vietnam(?) I've gotten to know so many firends who have cried when they see what's happening because {Bill signed NAFTA}. That was the worst thing that's ever been signed. She wants TPP now, she wants it she called it the gold standard but she lied the fact checked it!

HRC: the final TPP didn't do what we wanted and I'm against it. There's only one on this stage who's shipped jobs to 12 countries, and China. I've fought against China dumping illegal steel into our markets, the Trump hotel was made with Chinese steel but he's given jobs to many Chinese steelworkers not American steelworkers. We'll have a trade prosecutre for the first time in history.

Trump: Why didn't you do this over the last 30 years . . . you were very much involved you've been in position to help for 30 years

(Trump getting very snarky and taunty)
posted by petebest at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Talk over them Hillary, yes. TALK OVER THE LOUD INTERRUPTING MEN.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [48 favorites]


Ew, "excuse me, my turn," so condescending.
posted by limeonaire at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Excuse me, MY turn." --> My jaw literally dropped.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


"six billion dollars was missing. how do you lose six billion?" [real]
"oh, only one billion is ok?" [fake]
posted by mhz at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd love Trump to live the rest of his life in rural China, see how he likes it
posted by angrycat at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow - if so, will he become my new best friend?" -- Donald Trump, 2013 [real]
posted by dhens at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's Hillary's fault he used Chinese steel to build his Vegas hotel because she didn't stop him as First Lady of Arkansas.

Ok.
posted by phunniemee at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [45 favorites]


She missed an opportunity to bring up infrastructure spending: "Not only did the stimulus work, we should be investing more in our future with historically low interest rates. My infrastructure plan..."
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton: "We're going to have a trade prosecutor for the first time in history" to make sure that trade agreements and laws are upheld.
posted by Superplin at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016


"It has turned out badly." Is badly a new trumpism? The new bigly?
posted by chaoticgood at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I. Just. Want. To. Slap. That. Face.
"Make it hard for me to use chinese steel then, I won't mind"
posted by honey-barbara at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


What now? The State Department is missing 6 billion dollars? What fever swamp dream is this?
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary references the ISDS. TPP here we come.
posted by rhizome at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


DDDDDAMN HILLARY. Hitting Trump and not letting up.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump admits using Chinese steel because Hillary didn't make it impossible for him to do so?!
posted by Gelatin at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am no prude but for Trump to scream WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO makes me feel really sad about how our standards have fallen
posted by Tarumba at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Why would she blame him for Bush?

He's the Republican nominee. Bush didn't fuck the economy alone.
posted by any major dude at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016


He's now mouthing "wrong" to everything she says. Classy.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump claiming that 6 billion dollars was stolen form the State Department?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 PM on October 19, 2016


Petebest, you are doing great work.
posted by mochapickle at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


He's switched to just mouthing "wrong" instead of saying it. He's like a twelve year-old repeating his mom's admonishments back to her.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


"Former senior U.S. national security officials are dismayed at Republican presidential candidate

...er, are these the same officials that got us into Iraq?
posted by sammyo at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016


in the meanwhile, apparently Nintendo has decided that 10:00 p.m. Eastern, ⅔ of the way through the debate, is the perfect time to reveal their new video game console
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


So, anyone else get the feeling Trump stole $6 Billion?
posted by yellowbinder at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


For Donald to interrupt the moderator to say "My turn" is like... Nah, metaphors fail me. It's just a shittier line than any I could come up with for him.
posted by at by at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Let me talk about my last 30 years." Oh Hillary, Bill already recited the Hilliad at the DNC.
posted by yeti at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


She is walking all over him. Constantly talking him down and getting more time.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think it's underrated how much juice the Pepe meme thing got from the fact that Trump genuinely, sincerely looks like that dumb fucking frog.
posted by penduluum at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


Oh, he is *hating * her comparison of her record to his!
posted by Gelatin at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


you have hundreds of millions of people who are able to buy basic modern consumer products for the first time.

And hundreds of millions of people who are able to go from lower-skill work to higher-skill work. Does Trump want to build planned manufacturing cities in Ohio modelled after Shenzhen?
posted by holgate at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He keeps asking "why she didn't change it" if she's "been doing it" for 30 years. Motherfucker literally doesn't understand how representative democracy works.

Motherfucker literally doesn't understand how representative democracy works.
posted by Rumpled at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [56 favorites]


My 30 years! Yes!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Does anyone else thing Trump sounds really condescending right now? It's not a good tone for him I think.
posted by Deathalicious at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016


IT'S HILLARY'S FAULT THAT DONALD TRUMP BUILDS HIS BUILDINGS WITH ILLEGAL CHINESE STEEL SHE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED HIM, Y'ALL
posted by telepanda at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


Just ask him how many times his company went bankrupt, Hils. Just do it. Please.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Comparing her 30 years with his. She is about to kill him on his bankruptcies.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


If we ran the United States like Trump's companies we'd be bankrupt four times and nobody would lend to us except suckers.
posted by Talez at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Migration? Of birds? Bees?
posted by filthy light thief at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He is saying "bigly," we all hear it

It might sound to your ear like "bigly," but it's "big league" in a kind of accent that is familiar to people from his part of the country. I am about as opposed to him as I can be, but he's not actually saying "bigly. "It's an accent.
posted by Miko at 6:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


oh snap sick Apprentice burn, Hil
posted by butterstick at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


if you are going to reference the Apprentice you have to name tag Meatloaf, c'mon, that's comedy 101
posted by any major dude at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


C'mon Hill. And who benefited, Donald. You. No one else.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016


He just called the moderator ANDERSON.
posted by vrakatar at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


Ah cool, still patting himself on the back, he's built a PHENOMENAL company, apparently.
posted by limeonaire at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016


This is mostly substantive, and she's hitting almost all of the questions out of the park. Has Trump had a coherent policy answer yet?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016


"Fitness to be president of the United States" sounds like a joke Jeopardy category.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


only serial liars have to say "frankly" so often
posted by any major dude at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


in the meanwhile, apparently Nintendo has decided that 10:00 p.m. Eastern, ⅔ of the way through the debate, is the perfect time to reveal their new video game console

I hope they discuss this. Nintendo is very important to me and the success of this next console is vital. I need to know the next President is behind it.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


"she's gonna get rid of nobody" [real]
posted by carrienation at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wallce: "our next segment is going to be fitness to be President of the United States"

Yes please.
posted by zachlipton at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Even if Chris Wallace is being unreasonably antagonistic, a US President has to be able to handle themselves in that situation.
posted by Small Dollar at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I want her to hit him with the point from (I think) 538 that if Trump had invested his capital in index funds he would be several times richer now
posted by iffthen at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016


DJT: "If we could run the country the way I've run my company..." I am positive there will be an ad that quotes this and shows the bankruptcies and $1B loss in personal taxes.
posted by mochapickle at 6:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Did Trump get the memo that Obama has great approval percentages? He keeps connecting Hillary to Obama, I don't think that will work in his favor.
posted by Tarumba at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wallace is running this debate to try to bring Republican voters back to the table. Trump is blowing it.
posted by gerryblog at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's grabbing women time!

Wallace: "Nine women have come forward .... why would so many of so many different circumstances etc." ... bringing in Bill Clinton
posted by vickyverky at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016


Damn, no bankruptcies.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


These questions are endless compound multi-part questions. Sentences bordering on senseless.
posted by zachlipton at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


So--Chris Wallace interrupts her so Trump can rebut her, and then lets him talk indefinitely? Is this how it works?
posted by Anonymous at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016


I mean, we could make some money by slapping "United States Tower" on buildings around the world and charging licensing fees.
posted by Talez at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is hitting on numerous lies and falsehoods but pretty much selling it. I think Clinton is very defensive this debate and unless it changes real soon, this will be sold as a Trump win.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016


Obama made him grope people.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ha! Clinton is reminding the viewers that while she has been working hard in the political world, The Donald has been doing shit like hosting Celebrity Apprentice. Preach it, sister!
posted by but no cigar at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


And now, the main event "Fitness to be President". Pour the petrol on the garbage file.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


It might sound to your ear like "bigly," but it's "big league" in a kind of accent that is familiar to people from his part of the country. I am about as opposed to him as I can be, but he's not actually saying "bigly. "It's an accent.

Speaking as an NYC native, yes. To my ears, it's clearly "big league."
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Chris Wallace should be fucking ashamed of himself for the way he framed the sexual assault question.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


"groped them or kissed them without their consent"—ah, way to shy away from describing it as what it is, a.k.a. sexual assault, a.k.a. not just "stories."
posted by limeonaire at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


YAAAAAAASSSS QUEEN
posted by Sphinx at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


UGH I hate when he pitches up half an octave.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016


I wish when he had talked about running the US like his businesses, she had said, yeah, bankrupt.
posted by Gelatin at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016


Jesus, asking Hillary about Bill's affairs? REALLY Chris Wallace??
posted by triggerfinger at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


I didn't even apologize to my wife!
posted by Sophie1 at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Wallace's voice has been wobbling, like he's afraid of getting slapped. I have no idea why.
posted by at by at 6:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


James O'Keefe video pivot from the sexual assault allegations into conspiracies. Holy fucking shit.
posted by Talez at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


in the meanwhile, apparently Nintendo has decided that 10:00 p.m. Eastern, ⅔ of the way through the debate, is the perfect time to reveal their new video game console

It's 10am tomorrow.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: "They [Clinton/Obama] paid them $1500 to cause violence at our rallies."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I didn't even apologize to my wife hahahahaha
posted by glhaynes at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


LOL Donald, you denying what the women said is not debunking!
posted by chaoticgood at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


WHERE THE FUCK IS TRUMP EVEN GETTING THIS STUFF ABOUT STARTING FISTFIGHTS
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"I think they want fame, or her campaign did it ... they're telling people to go out and start fistfights." [real]

What now?
posted by vickyverky at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump outright accuses Hillary of putting the women up to lying about him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


WHY INDEED?!? It's a MYSTERY!!!
posted by Deathalicious at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


what was that Chicago shit?
posted by angrycat at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016


Looks to me like her patience has reached its end. She looks disgusted.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump is a gaslighting abuser.

America, DTMFTA
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [94 favorites]


Bigly. (Tiny) hands down.
posted by Namlit at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I actually muted it for this question about sexual assaults. I categorically do not want to hear what garbage he vomits out of his mouth.
posted by lydhre at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


It might sound to your ear like "bigly," but it's "big league" in a kind of accent that is familiar to people from his part of the country

he's from queens. he's saying bigly.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Now here comes the O'Keefe reference as an attempt to deflect from the "completely false" reports from the women who've accused him of sexual assault--which he blames on the Clinton campaign.
posted by Superplin at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


WHAT? "They're on tape offering them $1500" - huh?
posted by Miko at 6:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He should really apologize to his wife for putting her through all this, to be clear. I hate when dudes say that they won't apologize to their wives for things that they say other people did and they had nothing to do with, but I'm sure the wives don't feel good about. You don't care how your wife feels, though, clearly.
posted by limeonaire at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


What is this riot thing Trump is talking about? I have no fucking idea what he's talking about, never mind why Clinton hypothetically complicit.
posted by at by at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is there anything whatsoever behind this accusation that Clinton had paid provocateurs?
posted by jackbishop at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016


10 minutes of fame? Donnie's not a Warhol fan I guess.
posted by rhizome at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Alex Jones must be having an out of body experience watching this debate
posted by any major dude at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Refresh my memory, Donald: what was it Hillary did in regards to the Bill Clinton scandals that was so bad? Something about attacking them and calling them liars?
posted by Rhaomi at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh shit, repeating his comments on women with such disgust. That's how you hit a target.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Donald thinks that belittling women makes him bigger."
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


"I don't think there's a woman anywhere who doesn't know what that feels like."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [61 favorites]


he's from queens. he's saying bigly.

Queens is in NYC. And nobody, not even in Queens, says "bigly" because it is not a word. "Big league," however, is common enough superlative for people of his generation.
posted by Miko at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Is Chicago a dogwhistle of some kind? I don't even know what the fistfights claim is about.
posted by vickyverky at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary is just killing it. He's disgusting.
posted by glhaynes at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]




It might sound to your ear like "bigly," but it's "big league" in a kind of accent that is familiar to people from his part of the country. I am about as opposed to him as I can be, but he's not actually saying "bigly. "It's an accent.


Sorry, he can enunciate. I've lived in NYC over ten years and it sounds like bigly to me. Enough grading on a curve. Bernie Sanders is completely understandable for example.
posted by zutalors! at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Illegal dumping of Chinese steel and aluminum into the country. Indeed, the trump hotel in Las Vegas is made with Chinese steel aND aluminium.

And Trump Tower itself with ready-mix concrete, which meant dealing directly with the mob who controlled the ready-mix concrete business.
posted by holgate at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


WHERE THE FUCK IS TRUMP EVEN GETTING THIS STUFF ABOUT STARTING FISTFIGHTS

WHAT? "They're on tape offering them $1500" - huh?


James O'Keefe caught some loosely DNC tied operative shooting off his mouth.
posted by Talez at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


yes they were plenty attractive for me to sexually assault!
posted by any major dude at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know why I believe these women? Because there's a mothertruckin video of you saying you assault women!!!!
posted by areaperson at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [33 favorites]


Interesting that Trump's conflating the women who "lied" and were paid off by the Clinton campaign about being assaulted by him, on the one hand; and the "riots" in Chicago at his rally on the other.

They're all of one piece in his mind-- attacks on his quasi-divine person.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


He goes after women's dignity and self worth. I think every woman knows what that feels like.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


WHERE THE FUCK IS TRUMP EVEN GETTING THIS STUFF ABOUT STARTING FISTFIGHTS

There's some rumors floating around based on some video that rightwingers claim shows Clinton people planning to incite violence.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016


The People magazine writer has six people who corroborate her story.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


"Nobody has more respect for women than I do,"

Audience laughs.
posted by Torosaurus at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [111 favorites]


That little pause after she talked about the emotions of sexual and verbal abuse was heartbreaking and poignant and exactly right. Seriously, she is killing it on this question. "America is great because America is good." Really good job, Hillary.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


Clinton: "Donald thinks belittling women makes him bigger...that's who he is." (real)
posted by Gelatin at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump's face is turning flush and then blanching and then reddening again while Clinton is tearing into his sexist speech and conduct.
posted by at by at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Stone. Cold. Hillary.

Clinton: "We know what Donald thinks about women."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


Nobody has more respect for women?
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: "Nobody has more respect for women than I do." [real]
posted by uncleozzy at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


People started laughing at Trump saying nobody has more respect.
posted by Talez at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


And nobody, not even in Queens, says "bigly" because it is not a word.

he's not saying bigly bECAUSE he's from queens. he's saying it because he's fucking stupid.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]


NOBODY HAS MORE RESPECT FOR WOMEN!
posted by Sophie1 at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016


Mod note: Folks, the linguistics debate is getting circular, please drop it.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


"nobody has more respect for women than I do" gets a big laugh from the audience!!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Nobody has more respect for women than I do."

[Guffaws from the crowd]

[REAL]
posted by Rhaomi at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Is there anything whatsoever behind this accusation that Clinton had paid provocateurs?
I think that O'Keefe jack ass has some new edited footage the alt right is claiming prove some shit.
posted by vrakatar at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Nobody has more respect for women than I do."
*Laughter from the audience, Wallace hushes them*
posted by Lykosidae at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


BACK TO EMAILS. IT'S LIKE A SAFETY BLANKET.
posted by Talez at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump: "Nobody has more respect for women than I do"
(mild audience laughter)

[real]
posted by iffthen at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's pivoted back to the 33,000 emails. BIG SNIFF.
posted by vickyverky at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


The crowd laughed at him for saying nobody has respect more for women than he does, and he responds by going off on some other shit about a nothingburger scandal.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: "All fictionalized. Started by her and her sleazy campaign."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Nobody has more respect for women, than I do. Nobody. And frankly those stories have been largely debunked"—largely. Ew.
posted by limeonaire at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I don't even know what the fistfights claim i about."

It's about the fights in Chicago and the Trump rally that was canceled. There's a James O'Keefe video going around "Project Veritas" saying that it was Democratic operatives that paid people to get into fights and protest.
posted by Selena777 at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016


Her tone on the sexual assault question is just right - serious, disgusted, quietly indignant, not letting him pull her down into the muck.
posted by aka burlap at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Largely debunked all fiction all fiction lies started by her sleazy campaign what happened to the FBI I don't know.

[verbatim, mostly]
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: What happened to the FBI? I dont know (real)
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: "Nobody has more respect for women than I do"

Audience laughs audibly.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


He should really apologize to his wife for putting her through all this

It would no more occur to him to apologize to her than to his car.
The Bill thing is low hanging fruit and he's not picking it?
posted by Countess Elena at 6:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


HRC: "Donald thinks belittling women makes him bigger." I don't think there's a woman alive who hasn't seen this in action. "We celebrate diversity and lift people up... America is great because America is good."

DJT: "Nobody has more respect for women than I do." The audience titters; Wallace tells them to pipe down.

DJT pivots to emails. Take a drink!
posted by mochapickle at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


sexual assault? BUT EEEEEEEMAAAAAAAAAAAAILS
posted by telepanda at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


He knows he's been owned so he's going to his safe place--EMAILS
posted by chaoticgood at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I dropped $25 for Hillary's defense of the women accusers.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


if you change the subject you lose the argument Donald
posted by any major dude at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Mr. Trump, you now have another 45 seconds to debase yourself even further."
posted by uosuaq at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Why isn't Wallace shutting him down when he starts talking about emails in the middle of an answer about his conduct with women? That's some bullshit.
posted by Superplin at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can't be the only woman here that is just tired of every time he talks about women in any capacity is that 'women, lying liars amirite?' This shit personally HURTS.
posted by asockpuppet at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [50 favorites]


Trump actually responding to the sexual assault claims with EMAILS!!? 111
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Nobody has more respect for women than I do."

*Unrestrained titters from from the audience.*
posted by Deathalicious at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016


Aye-aye, people laughing at him saying, "No one has more respect for women than me." As much as I have similar sentiments, people should be quiet in the audience. That's where he is getting his power, out of defiance and synergy from the crowd.
posted by constantinescharity at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently, Melania told Anderson Cooper that he did apologize. So that's going to be a thing now.
posted by zachlipton at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


To be fair James Cartwright sent TOP SECRET/SCI directly to a reporter. The Hillary email stuff has been more like a witchunt.
posted by Talez at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Four star jail whatevers
posted by Namlit at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016


Pattern of divisiveness.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016


WRONG

yes Trump

yes, continue on
posted by Anonymous at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016


Oh, come ON, Hillary, just because HE'S changing the subject doesn't mean YOU have to.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016


Omg not emails again. Is that even on the bingo card or is it just the "free space"?

also he looks like a frog in a wig.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


WRONG! Drink!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I hope he's really upset as he sounds. It'd make me sad to think that he won't feel this beating at the polls to the core of his black heart. I hope he's never known such despair.
posted by angrycat at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


When he leans into his mic and says, "Wrong," while HRC speaks, I can only see Alec Baldwin. His campaign must know when he does that, he's a joke?
posted by gladly at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


Impressed by her memory of so many examples of his horribleness. It's all just a gray soup to me at his point.
posted by glhaynes at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


No seriously guys, Trump's face has kind of transited from orange to a solid red.
posted by at by at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton is fucking killing it, and Trump looks like a dolt. This couldn't be going better.
posted by DynamiteToast at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm from Queens. No one here says "bigly." He's not saying "big league."
posted by zarq at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hillary's going high, talking about how pointless divisiveness is while Trump fiddles with his microphone.
posted by vickyverky at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: The state department lost 6 billion dollars

HRC: That's been debunked many times. But for 30 years I was working for schools he was getting sued for racial discrimination, I worked for public schools he was getting a loan from his daddy, I was campaigning for human rights in China he was insulting Alica Marcado, I was there to get osama bin laden, he was running the Apprentice tv show

Trump: I ran a great company, I built a great company. she gave us ISIS because of a vacuum, we should have never been in Iraq, she gave us ISIS as sure as you are sitting there, she's going to get rid of ISIS she's going to get rid of nobody

CM We'll get to hotspots in a minute, but qualifiactions for Presidency. Since your tape you've said you've said you've never done that but 9 different women have ome forward to say you have. why would they come forward now.

Trump those stories have been largely debunked. Her campaign did it. What happened with my rally in Chicago - she and Obama caused the violence they paid $1500 to cause the violence - those stories are not true, I didn't apologize to my wife - they want fame or it's her campaign, they did a criminal act to have people start violence all on tape started by her, she got these people to step forard, they get their 10 minutes of fame but it's lies and fiction.

HRC: At the last debate we heard Donald talking about what he did to women. A number of women came forward saying he did exactly that. His response was to hold big rallies where he said he couldn't have done that because they weren't attractive.

Trump I didn't say that! id ditn't say that!

HRC: He attacked a woman writing a story calling her disgusting. Donalt attacks woman who think it makes him bigger. He belittles them, cancels their self worth, and I don't think there's a woman who doesn't know what that feels like. We should stand up and show how we want our country where we don't want pitting fo people against each other. America is great because America is good. We want to make that true.

Trump: Nobody has no respect for women than me, nobody.

CM: (quiets crowd)

Trump: I want to mention something from her sleazy campaign. What isn't fictionalized is that she destroyed 33000 emails. Criminal. Criminal. We have a great genearal, four star general, going to potentially serve five years in jail for one lie. She's lied hundreds of times to people, congress, and she gets away with it. Thats whats you should be talking about, not fiction.

HRC: Everytime Donald pushes against what these women have said he immediately goes to denying responsibility. He does that for everything not just women, never apologizes, he went after a disabled reporter (Trump: WRONG) he went after the Khans, he went after John McCain said he prefers people who werent captureed. Went against a judge from Inidain because his parents were Mexican. A pattern of divisiveness in many ways a vision of our country where he incites violence where they're punching in his rallies, that's not who American is. More and more people are going to understand what America is.

Trump: violence at my rallies, she caused them.
posted by petebest at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [39 favorites]


Yeah, fox bot is gross, but hillary is awesome.
posted by valkane at 6:59 PM on October 19, 2016


This is by far her best and most direct performance of the whole campaign. She is really resonating with me right now.
posted by freecellwizard at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


HRC: "It's not one thing -this is a pattern. He divides, he incites violence".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


He *bragged* he committed sexual assault on a love mic. That isn't "debunked."

And he did mock a disabled reporter. Trump handed her another ad by saying"wrong."

Clinton is doing a great job decrying Trumpism..trump is blaming her for the violence.
posted by Gelatin at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2016


Clinton: "a very dark and dangerous vision of our country"

Trump: *nods repeatedly*
posted by invincible summer at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Why isn't Wallace shutting him down when he starts talking about emails in the middle of an answer about his conduct with women? That's some bullshit.

Because everyone including Chris Wallace was relieved he pivoted to emails and not Bill.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


PEC now has Clinton at 99%.
posted by zakur at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


Dark and dangerous visions by harlan ellison
posted by valkane at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


can we talk about ISIS and not my pattern of sexual assault?
posted by any major dude at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think the emails are overblown but they're a fair topic, and she's clearly ready for questions about them.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


The donors did not get special access, unless you count this as "special access":

Donor: "Can I have this favor?"
Huma Abedin: "No."
posted by Anonymous at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016


And now for my final question, bleach or acid? Which is best for washing this off?
posted by adept256 at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wow. I'm actually crying because she hit that answer about Trump's fitness for the presidency and impact of his tactics and words on the American people. Yes, Hillary. Yes.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


James O'Keefe, TrumpTV Programming Director
posted by rhizome at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can only assume that this tape that Trump keeps referring to as the source of Clinton paying for provocateurs has the same cinematographer as Fiorina's stem cell information.
posted by Lykosidae at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's reached his calm wall. He's starting to fidget and interrupt.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton foundation. Can you say you kept your pledge?

I am happy to talk about the Clinton Foundation! Made it possible to have 11 million people with HIV to get treatment.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


"I didn't even apologize to my wife." I just... Whew. It still totally blows my mind, for a man to lie so proudly and disrespectfully in such a lofty arena.

Meanwhile Clinton looked and sounded genuinely bone-deep exhausted talking about her opponent's history of rank misogyny, up to and including sexual assault. Yes, we all feel it. She looked down at the podium while she was talking about it, and couldn't even manage a wry lip-purse at "Nobody has more respect for women than I do." It is shaking me up so much to see a woman speaking and behaving like this while she is running for president of the United States. You can't escape the patriarchy any goddamn where, no matter how high you climb.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [68 favorites]


She only got 74 seconds per my stopwatch- this is a joke.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Guitar?
posted by SillyShepherd at 7:01 PM on October 19, 2016


Btw, I'm going to be a lying liar woman in Chicago this coming weekend! Let's meetup and lying lie and start fistfights.
posted by asockpuppet at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


PUSH GAYS OFF BIZNIZZ
posted by vrakatar at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sure Chris, keep Clinton on target but let Trump talk about emails whenever. Sure.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump does business in Saudi Arabia. What the hell is he talking about?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump also doesn't know how to pronounce Qatar. In fairness, I can't exactly do it, but he doesn't try.
posted by zachlipton at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


WALLACE: [asks question]
CLINTON: [begins to answer question]
TRUMP: [interrupts Clinton]
CLINTON: [tries to keep talking]
WALLACE: "Secretary Clinton, please let Mr. Trump speak."
posted by tonycpsu at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [93 favorites]


CM: This op-ed about fitness for presidency. HRC: donators to the foundation got special access, some got government contracts. Can you say you didn't violate that.

HRC: Everything I did as SoS was in furtherance of our country. I'm so proud of the Clinton FOundation for the great work that it does. It amed it possible for 11M with HIV to afford treatment and that's about 1/2 of the people getting treatment. Schools . . .

CM: Respectfully, the pay for play . .

HRC: There's no evidence to that, but there's lots of evidence that it was in furtherence of our country

Trump: there's lots of evidence , Saudi Arabia and Quatar Why don't you give the money back
posted by petebest at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Okay, wallace just stepped in it, letting him talk email when he won't let her talk. Shame.
posted by valkane at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's mirror: Trump calls the Clinton.Foundation a criminal enterprise.
posted by Gelatin at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait WTF moderator just shouted over Clinton in the middle of her answer and then gave the floor to trump???
posted by telepanda at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


nice Wallace keeping Hillary on point, where was he when Trump ducked the assault question?
posted by any major dude at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wallace talking over Clinton to push unfounded conspiracies about the Clinton Foundation [real]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yes, let's compare it to the Trump Foundation.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yelling contest! Finally.
posted by Namlit at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Little Haiti is just like real Haiti!
posted by numaner at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


So Wallace will harp on Hillary about not answering the question but Trump can word salad as much as he wants.
posted by charred husk at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Who does that?
posted by glhaynes at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Clinton: "I'd be happy to compare what the Clinton Foundation does with the Trump Foundation..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Anyone else feel like we've gone back in time to the first debate?
posted by tetsuo at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016


Seriously tho, who does that?
posted by joedan at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Haitians don't want your help! They're all okay now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, is Trump proposing cutting Saudi Arabia off?
posted by rhizome at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016


Is Chicago a dogwhistle of some kind? I don't even know what the fistfights claim is about.

At his rallies he often mentions Chicago, Philly and St. Louis as being cesspools. Three cities that just happen to have large African American populations.
posted by xigxag at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


This should put to rest any last remaining notion that Wallace is a real journalist. He's not. He's Sean Hannity, and should never be allowed to host another debate.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Wallace is a tool. Where is Gwen Ifill.
posted by asockpuppet at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Where's Gromit when we need him?
posted by Namlit at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Clinton, on the Trump foundation buying a portrait of DJT: "who does that?"
posted by uncleozzy at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [41 favorites]


Clinton's beautifully inflected "I mean, who does that?" regarding Trump's foundation-funded mega-portrait gave me the first proper belly laugh of this grim enterprise.
posted by cortex at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [76 favorites]


100% of the Trump foundation money goes to charity. You heard it straight from him. One Hundred Percent.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Tax return torpedo away!
posted by vrakatar at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pivot to tax returns by Clinton. Nice.
posted by zarq at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace: "Wasn't some of the money used to settle your lawsuits?"
Trump: "No, we put up an American flag..."

[real]
posted by guster4lovers at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


Can we get off the "bigly" / "big league" derail forever? This is moving fast enough as it is.
posted by Archelaus at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Finally, Wallace calls him out on using Trump Foundation donations to pay his legal bills.
posted by carrienation at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


100% of the Trump Foundation money goes to legit causes, per Trump.

Clinton comes back: "There's no way we can know if any of that is true because he hasn't released his tax returns..."
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Wow, Trump's line about his Foundation was so dumb even Wallace had to push back.
posted by gerryblog at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


HRC interupts the guys smoothly to bring up taxes. She can hang with the big dogs.
posted by klarck at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy shit Trump is so bad at this. He literally just admitted that his foundation used its money to settle a lawsuit on his behalft.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


HOLY SHIT. HE CAN'T EVEN COMPREHEND WHAT HE DID WAS WRONG.
posted by Talez at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


St. Louis as being cesspools. Three cities that just happen to have large African American populations.

I'm just sitting here as a lying liar woman in my STL city cesspool with local beer and a whole lot of aggro.
posted by asockpuppet at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


He's too stupid to avoid his Foundation problems and she hasn't brought up the NY AG investigation.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I honestly think this is Clinton's best performance so far. She is killing it.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Clinton: "We have undocumented immigrants who pay more federal income tax than billionaires."
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [73 favorites]


Wallace: Wasn't some of the money that went to your foundation used to settle your lawsuits sir?
Trump: We put up an American flag!

[real, dafuq]
posted by iffthen at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wallace is a tool. Where is Gwen Ifill.

Srsly.

She's not even on the post-game PBS coverage tonight. Hope she's okay, I loves me some Gwen Ifil.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


H: "We have undocumented immigrants in this country paying more income taxes than a billionaire"

Oh my god, tear this dude apart.
posted by zachlipton at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [54 favorites]


In the absence of a vaccum, create one.

-Richard Nixon: [fake]
posted by clavdivs at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


We're entitled!
posted by valkane at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016


why doesn't Wallace call him on 100%? No one gets paid?
posted by any major dude at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"...because he hasn't released his tax returns." [looks directly at camera]
posted by rhizome at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wallace just fact-checked Trump on the Trump Foundation paying his lawsuit penalties.
posted by zennie at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


DJT: Trump Foundation 100% money goes to charities.
Wallace calls him on it.
HRC: We can't really prove anything because we don't have the documentation.
posted by mochapickle at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Moderator: Was Trump foundation money used on settling a lawsuit?

Trump: we put up a flag!
posted by Tarumba at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]



This is what happens when you've been drinking while peek watching and reading the live blog of this debate. You play with your mini orange icing cupcakes, make the bat sprinkles into hitler faces and make Trump icing hair and then when Donald 'respects women' like no one else YOU EAT THEM.
posted by Jalliah at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]


Trump is claiming 100% of his foundation money went to charity? Denies Wallace's point that the foundation paid to settle his lawsuit. The fact checkers are going to have a field day..
posted by Gelatin at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm honest to god Clinton is being allowed to say this without Trump going "WRONG!"
posted by Talez at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016


Mentioning Soros again to hit the right-wing anti Semitic sweet spot
posted by Countess Elena at 7:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump blamed Clinton for making him buy Chinese steel and now he's blaming her for making him not pay taxes.
posted by adamg at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


"We have undocumented immigrants in this country who pay more income tax than billionaires."
posted by gracenote at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


He is literally blaming her for his not paying taxes. Insane.
posted by zarq at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


chinese steel
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump, on not paying taxes: "We're entitled."
posted by Westringia F. at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump is talking about how he sat in his hotel today watching "ad after ad after ad" attacking them, paid for by Wall Street. Why did he spend the day of the debate watching TV?
posted by zachlipton at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


"Made with Chinese steel" --> Yes. Keep jabbing at this asshole.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


100% of the Trump Foundation money goes to legit causes? David Fahrenthold is cackling and rubbing his hands together in glee.
posted by yasaman at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


God I wish she'd explain that she was a senator and not a dictator.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


The only time Trump sounds like he knows what he's talking about is when he discusses how best to dodge taxes as a rich person.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]


Trump again basocally admits being corrupt because Clinton won't change the law.
posted by Gelatin at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Where's Wallace?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


CLINTON: "...made with Chinese Steel"

<img src="supa_hot_fire.gif">
posted by tonycpsu at 7:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump plugs his Nevada hotel.
HRC: "Made with Chinese steel." And a valiant smile!
posted by mochapickle at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Will you accept the results of the election?

"I will look at it at the time."

Guess who said it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump won't repudiate the rigging talk. Disgusting. It's so irresponsible and dangerous.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


Wow. “I will look at it at the time.” Surely this.

Surely this…
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hillary interjects: "made with Chinese steel"
(huge audience laughter)

[real]
posted by iffthen at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


He won't accept the election results:"I'll take a look at it at the time."
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


He cannot even frickin say "yes" to accepting the election results.

RIP American democracy, 1776-2016
posted by mhz at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [33 favorites]


Holy shit.

He says he will "look at the results at the time" and decide whether to accept the election or not
posted by Torosaurus at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


I wish she would just say to him, "Donald, how do you think a law is changed?"
posted by Talez at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


And Trump throws his running mate *and his daughter* under the bus.
posted by kewb at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Wallace realizes he screwed up with that interruption, and will spend exactly five minutes trying to be a bit tougher on Trump. He'll then go back to the softballs.
posted by chortly at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Christ, he's not gonna accept the results of the election.
posted by wallabear at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


HRC: Clinton Foundation spends 90% of the money on our programs we have great ratings from the watchdog groups. Trumps foundation spent money on a 6' portrait of him, who does that? But with Haiti, we've done things to help small busiensses agriculture and we'll continue to

Trump: Trump Foundation goes 100 to charity, including veterans.

CM: There was a penalty imposed by Palm Beach county paid by the Turmp Foundation

Trump: that money went to build homes for veterans

HRC: We can't know because he won't release his taxes he's the only presidential candidate never to release his taxes in the last 50 years. He hasn't paid a penny in income tax, undocumented immagrants have paid more income tax than a billionaire.

Trmp: we're entitled to take tax breaks and we do it. Most of her donors are doing the same thing. You should have changed the law when you were a US Senator because your donors are doing the same thing that I do but you won't change the law, because I sat in my apartment watching your ads all false paid for by wall street because you're going to help them.

CM: Mr. Trump you've been warning that the election is rigged and that HRC is trying to steal it. Your runing mate pledged that he and you will absolutely accept the outcome of this election, and Ivanka said the same thing. Will you promise to accept the outcome

Trump: I'll look at it at the time. I'm not doing anything now, I'll look at it at the time.
posted by petebest at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


"I'll look at it at the time."

@#$%%$@$!@#!!!!
posted by Thistledown at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump whiffed at the softball: "will you just freakin accept the results of the elections?"
posted by klarck at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


100% of the money from the foundation goes to charity tells you that he does not understand how charities work.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


Okay, so Trump has promised that he will not concede a loss.
posted by at by at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wallace: "Will you absolutely accept the result of this election."

Trump: "I will look at it at the time....I think the voters will see through it."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, the audience there is ACTUALLY LAUGHING AT HIM. This is surely unprecedented.
posted by stennieville at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Ew, "I will look at it at the time," what? You won't accept the results of the election?
posted by limeonaire at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: “We will look at” the election results “at the time” wow.
posted by migurski at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016


DJT is such a mook! Won't accept the vote.
posted by annsunny at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Holy shit he won't commit to accepting the results of the election!
posted by Superplin at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: Everyone hates me.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


[will you accept the results of this election?]

I will look at it at the time. [real]

THE EVERLOVING FUCK????
posted by telepanda at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


GAme over
posted by vrakatar at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I'll look at it, at the time." What a fucking maroon.
posted by valkane at 7:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I will look at it at the time.

NO I WILL NOT
posted by chaoticgood at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016


"I WILL LOOK AT IT AT THE TIME"

Holy shit, you didn't.
posted by Miko at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, god. Fuck him. He's destroying our democracy.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]




Wow, Trump point blank refuses to say he will accept the election results. Claims Hillary should not be "allowed" to run for President.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"She should never have been allowed to run." Trump's Mirror again.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


None of the rest of the debate matters. This answer where he says he will "look at the results at the time" is it. That (unless further hell breaks loose, have to hedge myself with this guy) the beginning, middle, and end of the spin on this debate.
posted by zachlipton at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Jesus Christ, this rigged election answer is shocking, even for Trump. Like, you can't walk this back.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


all the adults in your campaign will accept the results of the election, will the big baby do the same?
posted by any major dude at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think Trump’s “debate prep” was watching footage of Carl Paladino on a loop
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump: "She should not be allowed to run. She is guilty of a very serious crime."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Millions of people who are registered to vote that shouldn't be registered to vote. Millions!
posted by Sophie1 at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace literally can't believe the answer and is trying to explain things to Trump.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


Wallace asks Trump if he will accept the result of the election. Trump says he'll look at the situation at the time. Contradicting Pence and his own daughter.
posted by Gelatin at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump: "She should not be allowed to run. She is guilty of serious crimes! She should have never been allowed to run for president for what she did with the emails..."

UGGGHGHGHGHGHG
posted by guster4lovers at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Chinese steel attack is rock solid. Remind the working class people who like his "They took our jerbs!" rhetoric that he is not on their side.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, here we go, Trump is claiming "millions of people registered to vote, that shouldn't be registered to vote" [real]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump will wait and see if he will accept the results of the election (!).

Clinton being allowed to run (???) shows that the thing is rigged.
posted by dhens at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


wow. that should fucking legally actionable, his refusal to committing to accepting the outcome
posted by angrycat at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think Wallace has had enough of Trump being a treasonous bastard.
posted by zennie at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy shit he won't commit to accepting the results of the election!

Everyone knew it, it's good to get it out in the open.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'll keep you in suspense.
posted by vrakatar at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton: "Let me respond to that, because that's horrifying."
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [128 favorites]


It's rigged because she is allowed to run.

Damn.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"She shouldn't be allowed to run, she's guilty of a very serious crime, she shouldn't be allowed to run, and just in that respect I say it's rigged. She should never have been allowed to run for the presidency just based on what she did with emails and other things." Wow.
posted by limeonaire at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"She should never have been allowed to run for the presidency." Dude, Eugene Debs ran from prison, like, 10 times.
posted by jackbishop at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [55 favorites]


Trump is doing so much mansplaining. It hurts my head
posted by Jacen at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Look, in spite of the obvious bias in his questions, Chris Wallace is being forced to do a good job of pushing back against Trump. Over and over - he's being forced to.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump is burying himself right now.

Hillary subtly smiling
posted by Tarumba at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Millions of people are registered to vote that shouldn't be registered to vote."
FALSE!

"She shouldn't be allowed to run. She is guilty of a very serious crime."

He is a dangerous, dangerous man.
posted by Superplin at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump not accepting the election results isn't exactly news.

To be fair, most of his supporters won't, either.
posted by Archelaus at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ha, news of the day, Trump admitted he Read. An. Article. He read something! Who knew!
posted by honey-barbara at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: "I'll keep you in suspense." What. The. Fuck.
posted by dhens at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Clinton looked at the camera like in The Office when Trump said she wasn't fit to run for the presidency. It was like a Tumblr meme come true.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [44 favorites]


Oh yes he totally just did that thing. Wowy Mc Wowerton, and it gets better yet! Yummy.
posted by Namlit at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


If there is violence after the election by Trump supporters, this is the spark. Trump won't shut down that kind of talk and it's going to have ugly results.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


remember 20 or 30 years ago when we thought trump was just a tasteless self-absorbed infantile blowhard and not an actual fascist
posted by entropicamericana at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [62 favorites]


"we'll see at the time" or "we'll discuss it in the future" should be identified by now as a Trump tic. He's not going to do anything his fucking self. Though a few deplorables might.
posted by holgate at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


*the moderator explains to the presidential candidate how civics works*
posted by Tarumba at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


Trump is an abusive, dangerous man. "I'll keep you in suspense". That's...sociopathic behavior.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [85 favorites]


I... I mean, wow, the Emmy comment. That is not helping him in the slightest. "I should have won" after she lists all of the times he claimed the world was rigged against him.
posted by danapiper at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


Great Chris Wallace, giggle at Trump's shitbag bully interruption. Great work.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wallace provides a middle school civics lesson on the peaceful transition of power & DJT doubles down. I try to burn a hole in my TV screen.
posted by mochapickle at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


To give Wallace credit, he didn't cough or anything during the "not saying you're going to be the loser, but".... part.
posted by rewil at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


Did he seriously just say what I think he said? He's reserving judgment on whether he'll respect the results of the election?

Is there even any precedent for this? I -- I can't even. He's basically laying the groundwork for riots across the country, not to mention irreparable damage to the country, on live TV.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Clinton sums up Trump: "funny, but also really troubling"
posted by kewb at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


The Emmies are rigged!
posted by drlith at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


YES THE EMMYS ARE RIGGED AGAINST HIM
posted by chaoticgood at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh, yes! The Emmy's are rigged!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Please Ms. Clinton try to refrain yourself from dancing a jig no matter how much you want to.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Wow, Wallace is really going hard in this rigging claim "Are you saying you aren't prepared to comit to the principle [of peaceful transfer of power]?".

Trump: "I will tell you at the time".

Clinton: "Let me respond to that, b/c it's horrifying".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [41 favorites]


This election: "It's funny, but it's really troubling"
posted by limeonaire at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump: Millions of people whoshouldnt' be registered to vote. She shouldn't be allowed to . . run and just in that respect I say it's rigged. She shouldn't be allowed to run for Presidency

CM: but sir the tradition of the peaceful trnasition of power and the end of the campaign the loser concedes tot he winner and the contry comes together for the good for the contry

Trump: I'll tell you at the time. I'l keep you in suspense.

HRC: well that's horrifying. The FBI looked into my emails for a year and concluded no case, he said it was rigged, he lost in Iowa he said it was rigged, Trump University gets sued he said that was rigged. He didn't get an Emmy and he thinks that was rigged

Trump: I shoulda got it

HRC: It's funny but it's also troubling. We've had free elections 240 years and that's what we should expect from anyone on the debate stage. Obama said he was whining becaause he's not up to the job. he's talknig down to our democracy and I'm appalled that someone from the two major parties would take that position.

Trump: Bill met with the FBI person on the tarmac.
posted by petebest at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [72 favorites]


aeroplane
posted by Don Pepino at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump, re: the Emmy that Clinton just said he complained was rigged: "I should have gotten it."
posted by Gelatin at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


August 2015 just feels like 30 years ago.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


I guess he hasn't googled the word "rigged".
posted by Namlit at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016


Right on. She did a good job getting that "package" in - totally ready for it, nailed it.
posted by Miko at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


"He is denigrating, he is talking down our democracy and I am appalled".
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


She's absolutely killing this rigged answer.

"He even didn't get an Emmy one year..."

"Should've gotten it!" [Real]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [59 favorites]


She just killed him about the Emmys thing. Ouch.
posted by iffthen at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


I will keep you in suspense

He really does think this is reality TV, doesn't he?
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [48 favorites]


I'm SO glad to see Clinton voicing disgust with Trump's rhetoric. Bravo.
posted by joedan at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


HRC reminds us that DJT launched a twitter storm when DJT didn't win an Emmy, calling the Emmys rigged. [real].

She's mad as hell.
posted by mochapickle at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


OMG the Bill Clinton Loretta Lynch on the tarmac thing... I can't believe that was his go-to Hillary scandal to get out of a jam.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016


This is surreal. Chris Wallace has to persuade Trump that a peaceful transfer of power is important.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [34 favorites]


She is channeling Obama now! She even said "Let's be clear"!
posted by aka burlap at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


O.K. I just got home you guys catch me up
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wish she would ask him, "Donald, how do you check if you're wrong? Do you ever care whether you're wrong? Yes? OK, how do you check if you are? What specific sources DO you trust?"
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary ate Trump alive.
posted by Tarumba at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oh, yes! The Emmy's are rigged!

well, they are obviously. Space Ghost never won anything.
posted by philip-random at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [46 favorites]


Hilz is on fire. Best debate ever for her. She has his fucking number now.
posted by spitbull at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]


TRUMP EMMY NEVAR FORGET
posted by vrakatar at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Hi, I'm Chris Wallace. We were briefly discussing the future of democracy in America and the virtues of a peaceful transition of power, but enough of that: I'm sure it's not that important. Let's talk about Iraq." [fake]
posted by zachlipton at 7:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


Please Ms. Clinton try to refrain yourself from dancing a jig no matter how much you want to.

Disagree!!
posted by glhaynes at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


That complete response to the "rigging" should be the verbatim quote that Republicans down the ballot need to completely agree or disagree with, in public. Like, every press availability for anyone with an [R] near their name needs to be clear about that.
posted by mhz at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


MetaFilter: It's funny, but it's really troubling
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


She's made of steel right now.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Were the audience applauding that mention of Bill Clinton meeting Loretta Lynch on the tarmac? Ugh, I hope not.
posted by vickyverky at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016


Space Ghost never won anything.

BAAAANJOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO </modfiat>
posted by cortex at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


UPDATE: Nintendo is not actually revealing the NX tonight. I am a proud fool who just discovered my inability to tell "a.m." from "p.m."
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


I feel like Trump wouldn't know Kurdish forces if he were presented with a framed picture of them.
posted by limeonaire at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump will be plucking at all those "rigged" darts for the rest of the debate.
posted by klarck at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel sick. Actually, physically sick.

"I'll keep you in suspense" and then we just carry on, hey, let's get back to the debate! Onto defeating terrorism.

How she just stands there calmly on that stage is ..... wow. Beyond me.
posted by gerstle at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


Hillary gave him both barrels on the peaceful transfer of power. "That's appalling" is going to be all over the (corrupt, dishonest) media tomorrow.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really do hope there are enough grownup Republicans left to be having furious whispered arguments right this instant about who concedes instead of Trump.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


My TV isn't picking up any of the audience noise so it's making Chris Wallace sound like a crazy person shouting at the clouds.
posted by acidic at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


I mean, I get what you're saying zachlipton, but Iraq, Syria, and the middle east really are important questions. It's not Wallace's fault that Trump is such a shitshow that they could spend the entire 1.5 hours on any given shitshow topic.
posted by Justinian at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Emmys rigged" was narcissistic injury number three.
posted by holgate at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


O.K. I just got home you guys catch me up

Hillary ate Trump alive.


Bigly!
posted by bibliowench at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


She's in Mon Mothma mode now.
posted by vrakatar at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


It really does feel like she's channelled Obama tonight. This is a different Hillary than the one in the first two debates, and she is seriously, seriously killing it.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


HRC reminds us that DJT launched a twitter storm when DJT didn't win an Emmy

That's patently false. He launched three Twitter storms three years in a row.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


President Clinton's look is awesome here.
posted by valkane at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Clinton looked at the camera like in The Office when Trump said she wasn't fit to run for the presidency. It was like a Tumblr meme come true.

She did it in debate two as well - looked very intentional. Hopefully this means she's gonna keep up Obama's troll-in-chief meme master practices.
posted by iffthen at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Scorecard so far: Trump = -1 (beating expectations but not really moving the needle)
HRC = +3 (more energetic than last time but still being relatively cautious.)

T might get a mild bump from moderate Rs but continue to lose undecided young and old undecideds.

But there's plenty of time left for another Machado moment!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Mr Trump, my final seven questions for you are as follows: do you think this is some kind of joke?

Take as much time as you need." [fake, but I wish]
posted by Rumpled at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary should call him out on playing games. Like his candidacy itself is sarcastic.
posted by rhizome at 7:13 PM on October 19, 2016


Hillary giving a well informed, well thought out, expert opinion on ISIS. I wonder what Trump's answer will be like?
posted by Tarumba at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Hi, I'm Chris Wallace. We were briefly discussing the future of democracy in America and the virtues of a peaceful transition of power, but enough of that: I'm sure it's not that important. Let's talk about Iraq." [fake]

What a fucked up segue. Like, stop the debate. Ask the question: "So, can I canvass both of you on whether armed mob rule will be better than the current setup? Two minutes each."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


God dang I am so freaking bored of Isis.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Democrats have an opportunity to demolish the republican party and they are choking. She speaks of Trump in the singular when not one Republican has spoken out on this rigged election shit.
posted by any major dude at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mosul. BOO! Surprise.
posted by firstdrop at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016


paragraph breaks in shocking places

I love this turn of phrase.

Chris Wallace is Mike Wallace's son? D'oh I had no clue.

He just cannot leave that mic alone.

Guess it's better than humping the empty chair.

"Mosul is so sad". Wtf
posted by tilde at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


mosul so sad, why you cry mosul, why you cry? [fake]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


He just said that the only reason we're invading Mosul is to make Hillary look good.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is Trump an idiot? You cannot launch a major and coordinated assault on a city of millions "by surprise". You can launch airstrikes by surprise. You can launch small-scale ground ops like that which killed bin Laden by surprise. You cannot mobilize tens or hundreds of thousands of ground troops by surprise.
posted by Justinian at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [34 favorites]


I know it's been mentioned one thousand times before in these threads, but it really did take me until the third debate to fully absorb how infuriating it is to have someone with endless wells of patience and poise have to share a stage with an emotional toddler
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [92 favorites]


The 2018 mid-terms should be all about unseating anyone who endorsed Trump.
posted by R343L at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [53 favorites]


Right now I would like some stagehands to roll out a big bulletin board and Chris Matthews asks the debaters to point out Mosul on a world map. I'm betting one of them would be off by longitudes.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


He seems to conflate the Secretary of State with the Secretary of Defense.

And again with the element of surprise thing.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


It sounds like he's saying "Moso" now.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald is bringing surprise back. Mosul, accepting election results, all of it!
posted by rhizome at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


God, she's just destroying him in this debate.
posted by octothorpe at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why does Trump keep invoking MacArthur and Patton?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is a different Hillary than the one in the first two debates, and she is seriously, seriously killing it.

I'm mostly on mute, but see it in the body language. The first two debates gave her the impetus and the permission to do this in debate number three.
posted by holgate at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


"I've been reading about Mosul for what is it... 3 months? ... Douglas MacArthur..." -- Donald Trump, 2016
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]




Bernie Sanders
1 min ·
I say to Donald Trump: Instead of giving speeches about trade why don't you lead by example and make your goods in America.

Look, if Donald Trump was really concerned about companies going abroad maybe, just maybe Donald Trump would move his manufacturing plants out of Bangladesh where workers are paid just 30 cents an hour. Maybe, just maybe Donald Trump would make his ties in the United States, not in China. Or his clothing that is made in Mexico. Or his picture frames that are made in India. Or his barware that’s made in Slovenia. Or his furniture that’s made in Turkey.
posted by cooker girl at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


The Great Migration?

I wonder if he remembers that from social studies in the 9th grade?
posted by spitbull at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


My defense-policy-educated bride just looked at the TV and said, "Because you don't move 30,000 troops into a city and make it a surprise, asshole."

I love her so much.
posted by Thistledown at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [88 favorites]


I thought NAFTA was THE worst deal.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Guys, she violated a red line in the sand! It's over!
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016


Someone bring out a map and ask him where Mosul is.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


How many "stupidest deals of all time" can there be?
posted by stennieville at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Name-checking military heroes—congratulations, you know a couple of names. It's pretty clear you don't know anything about the place you were asked about, man.
posted by limeonaire at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump trying to sound lime he knows military strategy. Pathetic.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wubba what now? Trump says ISIS all left Mosul because they announced they would attack? ISIS needs Mosul!
posted by Gelatin at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


There is something very darkly thrilling about watching a woman repeatedly infuriate a man on stage, on camera, with something akin to impunity. Like I imagine her thinking, "What are you gonna do about it, fucker? Hit me? The Secret Service will take you out so fast you won't know what hit you. So what now? Oh, that's right: sputter impotently and whine about the fires I walked through while you were busy heading up a goddamn circus."
posted by amnesia and magnets at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [150 favorites]


Trump called the country stupid again.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why does Trump keep invoking MacArthur and Patton?

He knows two generals by name and all other generals are "General Generic".
posted by holgate at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump Mosul word salad. "Iran should write us a thank you letter....Iran will take over Iraq." [real]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I want to cry. I love our democracy, and this fuckface is just taking a sledgehammer to it. He'll leave us in suspense?! Go fuck yourself. I've been terrified for months, and here he is saying I should just continue to be IN SUSPENSE over whether he's going to help destroy our country or not? I feel sick.
posted by yasaman at 7:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


“Las Vegas turns women into men and men into idiots.”

-Bugsy Siegel. ["real"]
posted by clavdivs at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


"Mosul is going to be a wonderful thing." Yeah, not until after reconstruction.
posted by rhizome at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016


I thought NAFTA was the stupidest deal of all time.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's gonna get crucified to more on the "keep you in suspense" thing. That's going to be the soundbite pundits latch on to. That's gonna be what his surrogates have to try to clean up after. That's what a thousand talking heads will be on TV explaining to people.
posted by penduluum at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


"The stupidity of our country "

This is not helping you, talking down the entire nation while projecting your own inner state.
posted by riverlife at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is Trump an idiot?

I dunno, Pat, can I buy a vowel?
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


DJT proclaims the Iran deal the stupidest deal of all time. But I thought NAFTA was the stupidest deal of all time?
posted by mochapickle at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mr. Trump, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this country is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
That was particularly about Mosul, but could be about pretty much anything coming out of his mouth.
posted by mhz at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


The question was about whether he'd put troops there, and he said not a single word about that. Entire answer was talking about how much he hated Clinton's position. From Wallace: nothing.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Iran should write us a letter of thank you!

Man this guy is so simple minded
posted by Tarumba at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mosul: definitely not in Iran, Don.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I guess we're done just mouthing "wrong"
posted by rhizome at 7:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ohhhhhhh Celebrity Apprentice dis!!!!!!
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Such Mosul. No surprise. Wow. Gone.
posted by asockpuppet at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump saying "WRONG" directly into the mic is my new favorite thing ever. (thanks to Alec Baldwin)
posted by triggerfinger at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


"While you were doing celebrity apprentice."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


holgate: He knows two generals by name and all other generals are "General Generic".

Shinseki would be way too "foreign."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016


She just brought up air support. Rachel Maddow did a segment on this yesterday. It was interesting. The Russians have set up anti aircraft in Syria. We are the only aircraft other than the Syrian government's.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think WRONG that Donald WRONG is wrong WRONG.
posted by adept256 at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wrowng. Wrowng. He actually seems to be channeling Alec Baldwin now.
posted by Flashman at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


CM (quiets crowed) Moving to hotspots; what happens the day after the forces tke back Iraq. Will you put US Troops into that vacuum to make sure ISIS doesn't come back

HRC: I am encouraged that there is na effort led by the Iraqui army supported by Kurdish forces helped by American special forces. But I will not support putting American forces as an occupying force. I think that's a red flag for ISIS to reconstitute itself. Taking Mosul is a hard fight and continuing to press into Syra and Raqqua the ISIS headquarters. . . .we know we have lots of work to do Syria will remain a hotbed of terrorism as long as the Iranians and the Russians support the regime there. I will make sure we go after them on the ground in the air and online and I"m going to continue to push for a no fly zone and safe havens within Syran to stop the flow of refugees but to gain some leverage to bring everyone to the table

CM: Trump same question

Trump: Lemme tell you - Mosul is so sad We had Mosul. She took everyone out and we're fighting again. They wanted to get the leaders of Isis who they thought were in Mosul. Whatever happened to the element of suprpise? We announce what we're going to do - we said we were going there andn they all left - the element of suprpise MacArthur spinning in his grave. we had it all we had to do was stay there. The only reason they went back to Mosul is because she's running for President. That's why we have the great migration because she wanted to look good. Much tougher than they thought. But the leaders that we wanted to get are all gon because they're smart. Mosul is going to be a beautiful thing and the russians should write us a letter to thank us. Iran has taken over Iraq, we've made it so easy for them. Iran is outsmarting . . look you're not there you might be part of that decision, but you took everyone out of Mosul, you should have taken everyone out of Iraq.

HRC: Once again Donald has supported the invations (Trump: WRONG) I have said I was wrong, you can hear the audio of him saying that why does that matter, itmatters because he's not told the truth about that position. What's really important here ist o understand the interplay Mosul is a Sunni city, we do need to go after Baghdadi, and we did whil eyou were doing the Apprentice. The fighters in Mosul are digging underground and it's going to be tough fighting. We have to take this back and take Raqqa. I'm amazed that he thinks everyone attacked Mosul to help me in this election.

Trump: Iran is taking over Iraq.


posted by petebest at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


I dare you to step over this line. Ok, I'm a-steppin'.
posted by Namlit at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


next time he brings up 30 years, why doesn't she ask him to name one selfless act he had done for his country is his entire wretched life?
posted by any major dude at 7:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh Professor Rodham Clinton, school him on Mosul. YAS
posted by chaoticgood at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hilary: He has denied that he was for Iraq invasion!

Trump: WRONG

so like is she wrong that he denied it?

double negatives, Trump! This immigrant can speak better English than you.
posted by Tarumba at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump: "Iran is taking over Iraq."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016


PODESTARISOTTOGATE. FINALLY!
posted by tonycpsu at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did he just call her honey?
posted by Anonymous at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016


TrVmp invokes MacArthur and Patton because they where both FIRED!
posted by clavdivs at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Why is it only an open discussion when she's trying to talk?
posted by Torosaurus at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


On the question of Mosul, Trump is issuing the sort of barely-threaded together soliloquy of the antihero on the brink of a complete nervous breakdown in the fourth act.

The problem is in this case calling him an antihero implies there's a prospect for redemption in the fifth act.
posted by at by at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton: We need to go after al-Baghdadi, like we went after bin Laden, while you were doing Celebrity Apprentice (real)
posted by Gelatin at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


And once again, Trump talks over and interrupts Clinton, and Chris Wallace tells HER to shut up and let him speak.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


I LOVE how she doesn't let Trump talk over her.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump: "No, YOU are the one that's unfit."
posted by limeonaire at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


OK, that Chris Wallace giggle makes up for some of the prior horrors.
posted by acidic at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: you know Wikileaks . John Podesta said terrible things about you, and Bernie Sanders said terible things. I agree with them.

HRC: Ask Bernie Sanders who he's supporting for President. He's said you're the most dangerous person running for President in modern history. I think he's right.

CM: (laughs)
posted by petebest at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [101 favorites]


That "Bernie hates you" thing didn't really connect.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Okay folks, he's in total freefall now. This thing is over. Nothing more to see here.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Uhhh... Mosul isn't on the Syrian border. Clinton must know that?
posted by Justinian at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


petebest, you are a beast
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump interrupts Clinton and Wallace tells Clinton to shut up?
posted by Flashman at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"You said several things in that debate that were not true, sir."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I hate this wallace guy now.
posted by valkane at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is interrupting Wallace now...why?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


And Trump is just going full on attack. Wounded animal.
posted by Talez at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is a floundering fool, but Clinton has pretty much announced we're invading Syria from the East.

God help us all.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, but now when Trump interrupts Wallace, he gets told to shut up and let Wallace finish. GOD!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Chris Wallace just laugh at Trump over this "most dangerous" comment from Clinton? Wow.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump is just repeating the question because he doesn't actually know anything about it. Amazing.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


And now he's fighting with Chris Wallace about the collapse of Aleppo? His meltdown is complete.
posted by gladly at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Everytime he says 'WRONG' I imagine John McLaughlin spinning a half turn in his grave.
posted by asockpuppet at 7:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


A man who lacks the temperament to let Chris Wallace feed him a softball question
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [109 favorites]


This has been a really nasty, vicious debate. The gloves are off.
posted by zarq at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


HAHAHAHAA


Trump saying Bernie does not like her

Hillary goes well who is he supporting now?

Trump: :.(
posted by Tarumba at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Every time we get a "wrong" or "you are the one who's unfit" I see little nintendo coins blinging into Clinton's square.
posted by chortly at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [42 favorites]




Hillary wide-eyes meme!!
posted by aka burlap at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016


Clinton burned Trump so bad, pointing out that Sanders is supoorting her and said Trump is one of the most dangerous candidates ever. Ouch.
posted by Gelatin at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I tried, I really tried to watch, but Trump's inability to put together sentences and words that meaning beautiful sad Iran terrible spinning in their graves crooked stupid terrible really great ISIS element of surprise

I don't know how you folks managed to get through these debates. I'm at once in awe of and a little worried about each and every one of you.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump's fully wound up, he's fighting Wallace *while* Wallace is trying to set up the teeball for him to swing at.
posted by at by at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Even after she's pointedly said it, he doesn't seem to realize it's the Iraqi Army that's trying to take Mosul. His idea is that the attack on Mosul would be kept a secret from everyone except all the military forces and participating militias in Iraq, and then it would have been a big surprise for Daesh?
posted by XMLicious at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


He thinks that saying "guess who hates you" works like it did in junior high. People say things about each other in politics!
posted by Countess Elena at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


DJT keeps interrupting Wallace's question on Aleppo. HRC's expression is the same as someone waiting their third hour at the DMV.
posted by mochapickle at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


I suppose in Clinton's defense, 100 miles from the Syrian border is basically "the Syrian border" to people who probably couldn't even find Syria on a map.
posted by Justinian at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Donald Trump has fallen, what do you need a signed document or something? Sad.
posted by riverlife at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's obvious Trump only heard of these countries and rulers a few weeks ago from his coaches
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


When you got a trump, you got no gloves.
posted by valkane at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump is a floundering fool, but Clinton has pretty much announced we're invading Syria from the East.

That's basically a proxy war with Russia
posted by any major dude at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Whatever happened to the element of surprise? ... But yeah - Aleppo has fallen. Totally giving up there."
posted by koeselitz at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016


CM: You said some things athat weren't true about Aleppo in the interview

Trump: have you seen it? It's a disaster.

CM: If I may finish You also said Syria an Russia have been fighting ISIS but they've been bombin and shelling Aleppo.

Trump: Aleppo is so sad. And a lot of this is because of Hillary Clinton. By fighting Assad, he's much tougher and much smarter than her and Obama. He aligned with Russia and Iran, who we made very powerful. We gave them 1.7 Billion in cash. I mean - cash! Now, they've aligned with Russia and Iran, they don't want ISIS but we want other things, because we're backing rebels but we don't knw who the rebels are. But if they ever did overthrow Assad you may end up with worse than Assad. and this is what's cause dht e great migration where she's taking in 10s of thousands of refugees, and they're maybe ISIS aligned . . trojan horse . . lots of luck, you're doing a great job!
posted by petebest at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Listening to Trump feels like I'm taking crazy pills. I've listened to people I don't agree with, and that's fine, but I literally can't follow what he's saying. It's this bizarre fog of words. Does he do this on purpose or does he think he's making a point?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [45 favorites]


"We don't even know who they are. We're giving them lots of money"
posted by rhizome at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thanks, Hillary.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I loved it when Trump was fighting with the moderator, that was priceless
posted by Tarumba at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yup, gone gone gone he's gone.
posted by vrakatar at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: pivots to "The Syrians are the great Trojan horse" in America.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


GIve him a break, he used to order a mosul and aleppo at his favorite lebanese restaurant
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


In the episode of The Americans where Reagan gets shot, Elizabeth immediately goes to DEFCON 2, breaking out the secret cache of bombs and assault weapons ready to activate as a sleeper cell and sow dissent among the chaos of a President's death.

Phillip walks in and is all like, wtf. "They don't to that here, transfer of power is peaceful".

Trump is once again on the side of the Russians, a Manchurian candidate ready to activate and spread violent unrest upon command once he loses.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


Wouldn't that be a Syrian horse?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Actually, Trump reminds me of the kind of people who have books (or DVD collections) about slightly unhinged generals. And dictators. I bet he watches the History Channel when he's not watching himself on CNN.
posted by holgate at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Moderator currently mouthing "PLEASE STOP I'M TRYING TO HELP YOU" while Trump shouts at him.

So it's basically like what happens at every meeting of Trump and his campaign team.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump: "Lots of luck, Hillary".

Did he just concede the election?
posted by Room 101 at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [50 favorites]


Clinton burned Trump so bad, pointing out that Sanders is supoorting her and said Trump is one of the most dangerous candidates ever. Ouch.

She's in NV and I'm in NJ but the heat from that exchange slayed me
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


I had to run out early on in this debate but when she went after him on Putin and said Putin would rather have a puppet I cheered very loudly in my car. That was a brilliant drag.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump back to the usual Alex Jones imitation, great migration, Trojan horse blah blah shouty face
posted by iffthen at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016


It's obvious Trump only heard of these countries and rulers a few weeks ago from his coaches

Hey, he said he found out about them from an article three months ago, and I'm willing to believe him on that.
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016


Is Trump an idiot? You cannot launch a major and coordinated assault on a city of millions "by surprise". You can launch airstrikes by surprise. You can launch small-scale ground ops like that which killed bin Laden by surprise. You cannot mobilize tens or hundreds of thousands of ground troops by surprise.

I think she needs a response where she says something like: "Donald, I bet you like to watch movies. I do too sometimes. And in action movies, there's always the big scene with the big military operation, lots of guns and explosions and special effects. But real life isn't quite like the movies. They don't show it in the movie, but a lot of hard work happens before that scene. Planning, logistics, the stuff our generals and troops have spent their entire lives learning to do so they can be the best in the world. They prepare so our troops have the supplies they need, the food they need, all the boring parts that are so important, but you wouldn't know that from the movies. You propose to send our troops in unprepared and unspupplied. That puts American lives at risk. This is real war, not a movie, and pretending like you know what you're talking about will get Americans killed."
posted by zachlipton at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [35 favorites]


Lots of luck Hillary? Did Trump just concede?
posted by any major dude at 7:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump "We've taken in 10s of thousands of Syrian refugees who in many cases are probably, no, definitely ISIS aligned". [true].

It's only 10,000, and as for the other thing, he should go fuck himself.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


WHAT

"Syrian refugees in many cases are ISIS aligned" you motherfucker have you ever met a Syrian refugee? Their lives were destroyed by ISIS you are such a Dunning Kruger posterboy
posted by Tarumba at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [70 favorites]


Did he just admit Hilary will be President when he said, thereabouts, "thanks a lot for what will happen in future years." ...?
posted by equestrian at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


His eyes are as red as his skin. Drug test!
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton: We need to go after al-Baghdadi, like we went after bin Laden, while you were doing Celebrity Apprentice (real)

That was a cheap shot... and a GLORIOUSLY sick burn. Thanks, Hillary, I needed the laugh.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]


Trump again brings up the so-called refugee Trojan Horse and says thanks a lot, Hillary, wait til you see what happens.

Did Trump just concede she's wonning?
posted by Gelatin at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


He just wished her "good luck with that" wrt the Syrian refugees. He just admitted she's going to be the next President.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Do you think he was sarcastic when he just thanked her for doing a great job?
posted by chococat at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]




Ok the last bit of Trump was absolutely incoherent. Like a whaty what wut.
posted by Namlit at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is he on downers this time?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wallace asked a solid question about a No Fly Zone in Syria, and Clinton gave a solid response then flowed into an answer about protecting refugees. Is this what a real debate feels like??
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


HRC on the refugee situation: "I am not going to slam the door on women and children."
posted by mochapickle at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


"We don't even know who they are! They could be anybody -- Mimes! Zombies! Shriners! Three garden gnomes in a trenchcoat!"
posted by PlusDistance at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [38 favorites]


Wallace: I am thr....

Trump: WRONG!

Wallace: Mr trump, I am trying to throw ...

Trump: I know nothing about Syria!

Wallace: Goddamn it I'm trying to lob a softball just fucking swi...

trump: Clinton's fault!

[fake]
posted by uncleozzy at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Did Hillary kind of almost just call Queens a place where bad people come from?
posted by clorox at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Swatches of land?
posted by stennieville at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


The threat comes from QUEENS!
posted by mikelieman at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


HRC: The Pulse shooter was born in Queens, the same place Donald was born.
posted by mochapickle at 7:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Queen's....were Donald was born!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016


Yes, please talk as much as you want Donald.
posted by charred husk at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


CM: General Chief of Staff, a no fly zone could get into a war in Russia. How do you enforce that?

HRC: First of all a no fly zone could save lives and end the conflict. I'm aware of this threat you're talking about - this wouldn't happen in one day it takes negotiation. We've had millions leave Syria and millions who have been dislocated. Somethign that we believe is the best interest of Syria and defeating ISIS.

HRC: I'm not going to let anyone in this country who's not vetted, but we are going to help women and children and do careful vetting. that does not help uus with ISIS, it doesn't help us with Muslim communities, the killer of the dozens of people in the Pulse nightclub was born in Queens, wehre DOnalad is from. Yes some of that is from Syra and Iraq, and I will defeat ISIS.

CM: I want to get into our last topic

Trump: So ridiculous you should have defeated them already. Cease fire! A cease fire we are so outplayed on missles, on cease fires, I assume she wasn't there and had nothing to do iwth out, our coutnry is so out played nobody can believe how stupid our leadership is.
posted by petebest at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Did Trump just decide he's the moderator tonight? I mean, what's new, I guess.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016


national debt time!

*nation yawns*
posted by acidic at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


For a guy who's never met Putin and isn't being influenced by him he sure does bring Putin up and praise him a lot.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


We have a cease-fire gap, apparently.
posted by Small Dollar at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


YES! THANK YOU! These attacks are citizens or long time permanent residents who have been in the states for years.
posted by Talez at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016


Hmm. Nothing about Benghazi? Did I miss it?
posted by kingless at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Hillary kind of almost just call Queens a place where bad people come from?

See, and they say she's dishonest.
posted by koeselitz at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


His voice is going shrill.
posted by annsunny at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016


Next thread title: "He's in worse shape than the national debt is in."
posted by Torosaurus at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


We should have never let *Trump* happen, right now he's in multiple countries.
posted by riverlife at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Does anyone give a fuck about the national debt?
posted by graventy at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


"This would not be done on the first day"—this just gave me a twinge of memory of all the questions about "the first 100 days of your presidency" regarding Obama drawing down troops, all those years ago, and it made me almost nostalgic for the rhetoric of those debates.
posted by limeonaire at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016


Legit question about the no-fly zones. She doesn't answer about shooting planes down.
posted by chortly at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


"vast swatches of land"

ah yes because figuring out the crisis in the Middle East is akin to selecting the color of the walls for the nursery
posted by that silly white dress at 7:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump kissing Putin's ass again I love that he brought it up, the dummy
posted by Tarumba at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here, let me summarize the debate so far.

WALLACE: "Secretary Clinton, your answer?"
CLINTON: "[three minutes of details in fully-formed sentences]"
WALLACE: "Mr. Trump, your answer?"
TRUMP: "Yo mama."
CLINTON: "[attempt to repudiate]"
TRUMP: "WRONG!"
CLINTON: "[attempting to continue]"
WALLACE: "Secretary Clinton, please do not interrupt Mr. Trump while he is interrupting you."
posted by at by at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [108 favorites]


I feel like we already talked about the debt. Why are we doing that again?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016


I need to look up now whether "swatches" for "swathes", re: the vastness of land Trump's talking about Russia taking over, is a common attested usage or just a Trump innovation.
posted by cortex at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


DJT: "Vast swatches of land." What, like the watch from the '80s?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think the Queens thing wasn't a dis on Queens, but instead a commentary on threats not coming exclusively from overseas, as DJT insists.
posted by mochapickle at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


"outplayed by Putin and Assad"

everything is an alpha male mano-a-mano battle to this guy. Everything's a personal grudge match.
posted by Miko at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


I think he just said ISIS is in 32 countries. Earlier this hour, he said 34; again, I think.
posted by lauranesson at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


GDP IS 1%?
posted by njohnson23 at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


trump is going to create tremendous jobs [true]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:26 PM on October 19, 2016


How can you possibly think the debt question is urgent when one of the candidates has said he might not accept the result? “One of you has announced your intent to blow up the foundations of governmentality in this country. My question is about the budget.”
posted by gerryblog at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Tremendous jobs. Which aren't paid for because it's so sloppy.
posted by valkane at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


On the economy, Trump huffs the magic asterisks. No wonder Ryan won't abandon him.
posted by Gelatin at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sigh, national debt. Still nothing on climate change.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Tremendous jobs." The Donald is really killing it with specifics! LOL
posted by Short Attention Sp at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


DJT: "Less than zero." Yeah, it is definitely the '80s again.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wallace: The experts say something.
Trump: THE EXPERTS ARE WRONG
posted by chaoticgood at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


tremendous jobs for a bigly non sloppy country [fake]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


we must use people.
posted by vrakatar at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016


If he thinks our trade negotiators are "political hacks", how does he think negotiators from China and other nations get there?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is probably going to start under Obama's watch, but Clinton has announced we are going to have our forces fight Russia's forces in the air, like it's Korea and Vietnam all over.

You wanna know what's worse? Her opponent would make things dramatically worse than even that.

I really fucking hate 2016.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


national debt time!

*nation yawns*


Clinton's answer here is important. We can't afford more austerity measures and government cuts, and she needs to break from Obama's reflexive giving in to Paul Ryan's framing.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Does he do this on purpose or does he think he's making a point?

i'm pretty sure he thinks he's the greatest orator the world has ever known. i was gonna say "i bet he thinks he's cato the fucking elder" but lbr he doesn't know who that is.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


This debate: Mr. Trump, would you care to clear up your comical and fundamental misunderstanding of a basic issue? Mrs. Clinton, here's a policy question

Like I said two weeks ago. Trump is getting the remedial test, Clinton is getting the AP exam.
posted by Talez at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [101 favorites]


I think he's given up. He's run out of improv.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just want to reiterate something that's already been said - thank you, petebest, for your detailed synopsis here. There's a reason you are my favorite fifth Beatle.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [45 favorites]


                                       DONALD (V.O.)
                                          (nodding)
                             YES I WAS BORN IN QUEENS
posted by rhizome at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I have just realized that "Well, first of all...." is grating on my nerves from both of them.

It's like people who begin every sentence with "Basically."

*nails on chalkboard*
posted by Thistledown at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016


DJT: "Vast swatches of land." What, like the watch from the '80s?

Nah, big blocks of land all the same color
posted by iffthen at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


everything is an alpha male mano-a-mano battle to this guy. Everything's a personal grudge match.

He's what George Carlin was talking about with the "Bigger Dick Foreign Policy Theory."
posted by tonycpsu at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


That Ronald Reagan burn is going to really sting tomorrow. Ouch.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


"People will again go back to work, and they'll have a lot of money"—I feel like when he says "people" here, he specifically means (and is speaking to) "middle-aged white men." But maybe that's just me.
posted by limeonaire at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wow wow wow. The first concrete plan I've heard out of Donald so far and it's to use businessmen to negotiate foreign trade deals. What on earth.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


"The Syrians are the great Trojan horse" in America.

Or, maybe, they're the ones who had the means as well as the motivation to GTFO, while millions lack the means. FFS.
posted by holgate at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016


Goddammit! Donald Trump is really really really sad! He's just sad about everything. So so fucking sad! I don't think I was this sad in the depths of my depression. So so sad!
posted by Sophie1 at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ooh, sick burn about Trump's $100k anti Reagan ad back in the day
posted by telepanda at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


I find it really hard to not space out when Trump answers, he says nothing, really.
posted by Tarumba at 7:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm trying to figure out how a dude who uses the term "bigly" is entitled to claim our leaders are stupid while insinuating that somehow he's smarter than that?
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


the trump economic machine sounds like a michael bay transformers movie, i.e. incoherent and headache inducing
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


This is probably going to start under Obama's watch, but Clinton has announced we are going to have our forces fight Russia's forces in the air, like it's Korea and Vietnam all over.

I don't think a no fly zone means imposed unilaterally. But we'll have to see what the Russians say about agreeing to one.
posted by Talez at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


> The best compromise I can imagine is maybe illustrating the efficacy of making birth control affordable and available - I think some reasonable Republicans could be persuaded if they truly believed it would result in far less abortions.

A pretty good resource on this topic, mentioned somewhere about 2,000,000 words upthreads but worth another mention:

Shannon Dingle: I'm pro-life. And I'm voting for Hillary. Here's why.
posted by flug at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Every single one of these questions is a right-wing frame. It's time to reorganize the debate commission.
posted by chortly at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


"When I hear Donald say 'Make America great again' I wonder when he thought America was great."
He took out an ad in the 1980s saying the exact same things he's saying now. He just always thinks "I alone can fix it."

Damned straight.
posted by Superplin at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


The takeaway of the debate will be "I will look at it at the time" as to whether he'll accept the results of the election. People will say he was slightly more hinged, especially at first, but everything pales in comparison to the "preserving the existence of a democracy" section, and that will be the headline around the world.
posted by zachlipton at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


IT IS THE ECONOMY STUPID.
posted by vrakatar at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's not apparently on coke tonight.
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


She's really hammering him on character in this debate, as well as facts and experience. And it's the right time to do it, and it should be pretty effective.
posted by Miko at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton: Trump is so unhinged that he criticized Reagan the same way he's criticizing me (real, paraphrase)
posted by Gelatin at 7:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


CM: National debt is highest since WWII, a group said debt would rise to 80% of GDP and Mr. Trump 110% of GDP

Trump: they're wrong because I"m creating tremendous jobs. We're bringing gdp from 1% to 4%. I think 5 or 6% and if we do you don't have to ask your question. We'l have a tremendous machine and have tremendous jobs. I'm going to create the kind of a country we were from the stand of industry. We've become sloppy, we've had political hacks making deals that are terrible leaders. We've had great negotiators who back me and some who back hillary who are the greatest negotiators but we have to use political hacks to negotiate withChina and people who are very much smarter. We'll create an economic machine the likes of which people haven't seen

HRC: First, when I hear Donald talk like that, and MAGA, I wonder when he thought ;America was great - I think it's important to recgonzie he's been criticizing our government for decades he took out a $100k ad in NYT for Reagan, he said the exact same thing we're the laughingstock of the world, he was criticizing Regan. He thinks he alone can fix it. I've paid for everything I'm proposing not adding anything to national debt, I've covered tuition and getting prescription drug costs down, we're going to ask the wealthy to pay their fair share. We've got to get back to rebuilding the middle class, that's where growth wil come from, that's hwy I want to invest in you in your family. And we just have a big disagreement about this, he started off with his dad as a millionaire and I think we see things differently.

Trump: I disagreed with Reagan.
posted by petebest at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


Despite the moderation imbalance and interruptions, she is still killing it. Mad props.
posted by danapiper at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary glowing like a beneficent grandmotherly faith healer extraordinaire, utterly in command of herself... Trump spewing bile and ignorance like a polluted geyser, pouting and red-faced like a frustrated spoiled child. Love split-screen.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


Well done on economy question.
posted by Miko at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016


Chris Wallace, what exactly is your function here?
posted by mhz at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton is talking middle class. Trump just talks lousy deals and how great his tax breaks are.
posted by Gelatin at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


DJT: "Can I respond?"

Wallace: "Well, no."

DJT: *responds*
posted by Torosaurus at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [62 favorites]


Let's means test social security!
posted by vrakatar at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


it's to use businessmen to negotiate foreign trade deals.

This is a man who thinks negotiation is "I win, you lose". While I look on at the UK government saying that post-Brexit it can export tea to China and jam to Jamaica, I am out of evens.
posted by holgate at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I guess after this whole mess is done Trump can always go back to hosting The Apprentice... oh snap an immigrant stole his job.
posted by vuron at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


DJT just addressed her as Hillary. He no longer wants her to be very happy.
posted by mochapickle at 7:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump: Nobody Does It Right
posted by Flashman at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Welp. The final question was written by one of the conservative think tanks. Which billionaire underwrote that one?
posted by at by at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ending with "Grand Bargain". What a fucking wanker you are, Chris Wallace.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Every single one of these questions is a right-wing frame. It's time to reorganize the debate commission.

Chris Wallas selected the questions and they were not known to either the candidates or the debate commission before the debate began.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


So now Ronald Reagan is spinning in *his* grave, eh Donald?

(i.e. Reagan did it wrong)
posted by riverlife at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


SYNCHRONIZE SWATCHES!

Parker Lewis 2016 - He can't lose.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


petebest, it's CW, not CM (thanks so much for what you are doing though)
posted by dhens at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


DJT just addressed her as Hillary. He no longer wants her to be very happy.
He's been doing that all along. He's done even pretending to have any respect.
posted by Superplin at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016


What's up with the overtime?

I think she destroyed him tonight. I'm proud of her.
posted by spitbull at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Every single one of these questions is a right-wing frame. It's time to reorganize the debate commission.

"Secretary Clinton, do you think you're more like Adolf Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer? Mr. Trump, same question about Secretary Clinton."
posted by Sangermaine at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [70 favorites]




Why does he even want to be president if every other country is so much smarter than America?
posted by notaninja at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't think a no fly zone means imposed unilaterally. But we'll have to see what the Russians say about agreeing to one.

They just finished an air defense network there, so probably they'll say "No."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh Ford, the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget again, like the second debate. They're devoted to slashing entitlements, period.
posted by Gelatin at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's just gonna let Trump skate on ignoring the question and talking about Obamacare?
posted by Rhaomi at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is winning the grumpy old man vote. Everything sucks.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump punts on the Social Security question, "my bigly economy increases will fix it" [paraphrase]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


PSA: the numbers Trump just said about Obamacare premium increases "60, 70 per cent, and next year 100 per cent" are pulled right out of his ass.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


SUCH A NASTY WOMAN?
posted by vrakatar at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [98 favorites]


What the heck happened to Chris Wallace's 401k to make him choose Social Security, an issue that neither candidate has made an issue, as the last question of the debate? Sad!
posted by acidic at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016


Wallace asks about Medicare/Medicaid funding and DJT natters on about Obamacare. Wallace lets it go. Boooooo.
posted by mochapickle at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016


She wants to make it worse. And she can't even do that!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


He just interrupted her with "such a nasty woman?" W. T. F.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [58 favorites]


Did Trump just for real say "such a nasty woman"?
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Every single one of these questions is a right-wing frame. It's time to reorganize the debate commission.


It used to be run by the league of Women voters, Bill Clinton put an end to that.
posted by any major dude at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Such a nasty woman! [real]
posted by Sophie1 at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Chris Wallas selected the questions and they were not known to either the candidates or the debate commission before the debate began.

And who the f selected Chris Wallace?
posted by chortly at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Did he just call her "such a nasty woman"?
posted by Torosaurus at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Josh Marshall: "Again, the arbiter of the debt issue is a right-leaning social spending cutting group, just as it was in one of the earlier debates. That's a problem."

Rich granny-starvers need to go on a catfood diet.
posted by holgate at 7:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Well, for Trump, tonight has been whatever the opposite of a “pivot” is
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Such a nasty woman."

Holy fuck.
posted by spitbull at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [64 favorites]


For a fox guy, the moderator was not too shabby, I think. He was kind of annoying to Clinton but he did call out Trump several times and maybe unintentionally made him look like an idiot

BTW Trump just said he's really glad premiums are going up because it proves his point that Obamacare sucks
posted by Tarumba at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Such a nasty woman" (accompanied by pointing and puckered butt face)

That'll win hearts and minds.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


The least Trump could do would be to refer to her new title "Madame President"
posted by vuron at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump interjection "What a nasty woman."

So that's what debates are now huh?
posted by craven_morhead at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


"I'll raise taxes" BAM, thank you!
posted by rhizome at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Such a nasty woman."

I'm speechless. I am without speech.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


Did he really just say "such a nasty woman"? Did I hear that right?
posted by limeonaire at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Such a nasty woman" ???
posted by kuatto at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wow. As Clinton is talking about how she'll deal with Social Security funding, Trump jumps in with "WHAT A NASTY WOMAN."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Did Wallace say entitlements are 60% of the budget or something?
posted by klarck at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016


Did Trump just call HRC, "Such a nasty woman"? Fuck him.
posted by gladly at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Wait, did Trump really just say "such a disgusting woman" over Hillary speaking? Please tell me I misheard.
posted by telepanda at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Such a nasty woman," he interrupts in response to a tax quip
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


What? Did he just call her a "nasty woman?"

Oh my god!
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh shit.
"My social security contribution will go up as will Donald's, well, if he can't figure out a way to get out of it "
"Such a nasty woman."
posted by zarq at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [47 favorites]


CM: Entitlement is 60% of the budget. Would you as president save Medicare and SS with a grand bargain tax increases and benefit cuts?


Trump: I'm cutting taxes and rebuiding the economy

CM: That won't help the budget issue

Trump: It's totally going to help. Obamacare is a disaster. Repeal it if it doesn't die of it's own weight. Premiums are going up 60-70-80 percent. She wants to keep Obamacare and she wants to make it even worse.

HRC: I'm on record as saying to put more money in SS trust fun, that's part of the commitment. My SS contribution will go up as will Donalds if he can't think of a way to get out of it

Trump: she's so nasty

HRC: but what donald is proposing is a 20 Trillion national debt. The Affordable Care Act extended the solvency of the SS trust fund if eh repleals it it will hurt Social Security.
posted by petebest at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


I Alone.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Your husband disagrees with you."

Every interjection more sexist than the last.
posted by spitbull at 7:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [74 favorites]


"such a nasty woman"
posted by My Dad at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Such a nasty woman." I don't think I've ever felt such disgust for another person.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


I threw a debate party and won my own bingo trophy. The winning column was: Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court, Sniff (free space), Bernie Sanders, Clinton Foundation.
posted by palindromic at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [25 favorites]


Surprise closing statements!
posted by charred husk at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump at Hillary: "Such a nasty woman" [real!]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


EVERYONE HEARD "NASTY WOMAN" CORRECTLY. NOBODY CAN GASLIGHT US ON THIS.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [133 favorites]


all my remaining favorites to petebest, well done and thank you!
posted by wallabear at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh my. He's about to go full Bill if he gets the mic back
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016


I hope Clinton points out that there's no crisis in Social Security that a tax increase won't solve.

....she did! And flatly refused to cut benefits!

*And* criticized his tax cuts! *And* defended Obamacare! I may need a cigarette.
posted by Gelatin at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [50 favorites]


whatever the opposite of a “pivot” is

A divot?
posted by holgate at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [33 favorites]


Chris Wallas selected the questions and they were not known to either the candidates or the debate commission before the debate began.

Chris Wallace. The debate questions were his work. This is the work of Chris Walas.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump disagrees by saying "Your husband disagrees with you".

submitted without comment.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


Chris Wallace says they didn't agree on closing statements, but he's going to ask them to give them anyway and maybe it will be more interesting because they aren't prepared. What the hell man?

Anyway, it sounds like Clinton prepared one anyway, because she's been preparing one since at least high school.
posted by zachlipton at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [99 favorites]


god i hope she rips off her pantsuit to reveal a janet jackson black leather outfit and leads the audience in a chorus of nasty boys
posted by poffin boffin at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [112 favorites]


Donnie, Hillary is used to BS from assholes like you, you can call her nasty or talk about her husband, SHE DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT AND YOU CAN'T INTIMIDATE HER
posted by Tarumba at 7:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


Oh. It was nasty, not disgusting. That's better.

*rage-hurls phone at tv*
posted by telepanda at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Haven't prepared closing statements"

Clinton prepared one. She's Leslie fucking Knope.
posted by Talez at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [142 favorites]


Of course Trump gets the last word.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Why you?" such a Chris Wallace question. What a schmoe, trying to steal some thunder from whatever their final campaign speeches are.
posted by rhizome at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: Kneel before Zod! [fake]
posted by cmfletcher at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Her elevator pitch is incredible.
posted by mikelieman at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


I wonder if the debates could cover topics like climate change and education if they didn't need to devote so much time to arguing about Trump's "fitness" for the presidency.
posted by bibliowench at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


I wouldn't claim to be 1st at anything and Trump still has the gall to claim he's the most respectful of women...
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"She's raising the money from the people she wants to control" --> What does that actually mean? Like, seriously, WTF is he talking about?
posted by guster4lovers at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary closing with a call for optimisim and hope. How will Trump react?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump must think that all the votes he need to win the election are from men and that all men have almost as much respect for woman as he does.
posted by any major dude at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


She just put a bow on it. He's going out on a tangential rant.
posted by spitbull at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Anyway, it sounds like Clinton prepared one anyway, because she's been preparing one since at least high school.

Update: Trump has not prepared one, and rants about people in inner cities.
posted by zachlipton at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Why should we elect you?

Trump: Because the world sucks.
posted by cirhosis at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donnie might be drugged, maybe yeah.
posted by vrakatar at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016


AGAIN, he goes right from "inner cities" to "African Americans." How do we get a candidate deported?
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [46 favorites]


"The inner city has no education and no jobs. I will do more for African Americans than she has ever done." Oh God.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yeah, Clinton sure sounds prepared for the unprepared closing statement.

Trump serves up wilted word salad.
posted by Gelatin at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's "Madam President" if you're nasty.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [106 favorites]


OK, I am sighing like the biggest sigh of relief that has ever happened on earth.
posted by glhaynes at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Smile!!!!
posted by spitbull at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


CM: I"m going to put a clock up you have one minute to tell the American people why you should be elected.

HRC: Everyoen watching tonight, I'm reaching out to all americans Dems, Reps, Ind, because we need everyone to make the economy work for everyone. We need your skills and ambition. I've been priviliedged to see the presidency up close and I know what it takes to work to make your lives better. I have done that my whole life, I will stand up to coprporations, I will make your childrens college affordable, I hope you'll vote for me.

Trump: she's going to pay for it with taxes. I wanted to Make American Great Again. We'll take care of immigrants, we need law and order, our inner cities are a disaster, you get shot walking to the store, I'll do more for AA than she can do in ten lifetimes, they'll get the voete, they'll say we'll see you in four years. It has to start now, we can not take four more years of Obama and that's what you get with her.
posted by petebest at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [51 favorites]


Ha, Wallace gives them a surprise "closing statements" question saying that it'll be more interesting b/c they haven't prepared.

OH THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK CHRIS
posted by aka burlap at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump: "All she's done is talk to the African Americans and the Latinos."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


"We need law and order, but we need justice too"—what a surprise that law and order hasn't included justice this whole time.
posted by XMLicious at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Wow, Trump's non-closing-statement-closing-statement is an utter dumpster fire. It's terrible. Like... even for Donald Trump?

BUT THANK GOD THIS IS OVER.

Clear sailing to election day, guys. Full hearts, clear eyes.
posted by Justinian at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [48 favorites]


He's not even looking into the camera. Talking to himself.
posted by Namlit at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton's expression when Wallace mentions that this is the last time they will be on stage together -- priceless!
posted by TwoToneRow at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


♫Madame President if you're nasty♫
posted by acidic at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


Four more years of Obama? He just sold me.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


How dare you talk about veterans after the Khan thing.
posted by Miko at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


You know who else got shot walking to the store?
posted by stet at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


The African Americans. What a douchebag!
posted by Sophie1 at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"When you elect her, you get 4 more years of Obama." What an idiot--isn't that what everyone wants?
posted by carrienation at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


Saying voting for Hillary means four more years of Obama is not an insult, Donald. Also kudos to Clinton on trolling him into calling her a nasty woman. He just can not resist bait.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Donald: "You get shot going down to the store"
Chris: (V.O) holy shit
posted by rhizome at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Please mansplain to our president-to-be what her husband thinks. Dear Lord!
posted by riverlife at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oop, I guess he's going to cram every soundbite he didn't use during the debate into closing statements. I was afraid we wouldn't hear about how you get shot walking down the street.
posted by jackbishop at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Our inner cities are a disaster. They have no education, they have no jobs. The African-Americans and the Latinos ..."

WHAT.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


DJT: "You get shot walking to the store." I think Trayvon was walking from the store.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [58 favorites]


Called it.
posted by joedan at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinton shakes Wallace's hand while Trump stays behind, doesn't greet her.
posted by zachlipton at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump, your closing statement about why you should be president?

20 sentences about how shitty Hillary is, then Make America Great.

Very inspiring, asshat.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


She's talked to African Americans and Latinos! The gall. Trump would never.
posted by ferret branca at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


You can tell DJT didn't prep/isn't a pro bc he's making eye contact with CW instead of looking into the camera when he addresses AmericA.
posted by alleycat01 at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


When Trump says Latinos I feel as connected to my heritage as I have ever been and I hate him even more.
posted by Tarumba at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


Man, she killed on the end. Good work madame president.
posted by valkane at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


No I'm pretty sure all of you people just misheard what he said about Hillary. After all that would be completely out of character because nobody has more respect for women than Donald Trump.

He might actually respect them too much which is why he's always trying to touch them and creep on them.
posted by vuron at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Fun fact: Obama's current approval rating is a net +6.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wow, what a trash fire.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


No handshake.
posted by dhens at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016


Seeing her hug Meg Whitman made me smile.
posted by Surely This at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


My friend just left. Where can I watch a recording of the debate?
posted by rebent at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016


C-SPAN: they don't shake hands. They shook Chris Wallace's hand though.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


In all three debates, the only effective thing he said is the very last: We can not afford another four years of Barack Obama, and that is what she'll deliver.

It's probably too late to convince people that he's a better alternative, though.
posted by Gelatin at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


#ImwithNasty
posted by ghharr at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [71 favorites]


"four more years of Barack Obama. That's what you get when you get her."

I live in a very, very, conservative community. A lot of Trump voters, a lot of never-Hillary voters. And if they took Trump's word for it, a lot of people I've spoken to - who've come to admit that Obama wasn't as bad as they feared - would consider that a marked improvement over what they've been fed from right-wing media.
posted by mhz at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


I don't know how I got through that without a rage-induced aneurysm. Gaslighting is his primary strategy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Well thanks everyone for liveblogging this 4534 hit combo. I've been reading and listening to the heaviest music possible to drown out the actual debate sounds from the TV room.
posted by selfnoise at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016


Clear sailing to election day, guys. Full hearts, clear eyes.

Don't rape.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump brings his family up to the stage, Clinton goes out to the audience. Telling.
posted by Torosaurus at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Lester Holt: "there was the first half hour, and then there was the last hour."
Chuck Todd: "The closest thing we had to a normal debate."
posted by holgate at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary hugging Christine Whitman!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please let Hillary have an ad about the Nasty Woman comment. Feeds into all the other awful comments he's lobbed to women.

Ha -- NBC commentary: "For a while, it seemed like a normal presidential debate!" High praise.
posted by mochapickle at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Takeaways from the debate are future of democracy and "such a nasty woman." Policy is irrelevant.
posted by zachlipton at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


clinton meets the audience and supporters, trump is still at the stage surrounded by family
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


He is still on stage with his entire family, poofing his chest out. She is down in the crowd greeting and listening. The election in a nutshell.
posted by danapiper at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


I'm glad Clinton got a chance to show that she could win in a normal debate as well as a debased shitshow.
posted by Flashman at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


NBC called it for Clinton obvs

They said Trump's answers were 10% okay haha
posted by Tarumba at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


CNN going with Donald didn't do enough and Trump declaring he wouldn't accept the results of the election is unprecedented and dangerous. So yeah. She's won the pundits at least.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Such weird optics: Clinton dives in the crowd, Donald waits on stage to be surrounded by his family.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


The PBS News Hour folks said that this was her best debate performance ever, and that his highlight of the night would be the "I'll leave you in suspense" line.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


No closing handshake this time.

(Are they really both going to do the Al Smith dinner?)
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


uuuuh NASTY WOMAN becoming a thing!!! for NBC at least
posted by Tarumba at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN post-analysis is absolutely killing him
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


WALLACE: OK, here's your last chance to make your pitch to the American people. Tell them why you should be President.

CLINTON (speaking directly to the camera): intelligent, adult comments

TRUMP (speaking off camera, to moderator): gibberish

Is... is he just trying to get Wallace's vote? Why isn't he trying to convince the voters?

He prepared for nothing.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump really looked defeated after the end, no smiles and waves like Hillary, just slouching, scowling deflation.
posted by kewb at 7:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, I think this was Hillary hands down. She looked happy and confident; he looked jealous and angry. And for the closing statement, she addressed the viewer by looking straight into the camera; he kept switching between the moderator, the camera, and maybe the audience. I mean, this was his chance to look maybe a bit presidential, and he blew it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


My friend just left. Where can I watch a recording of the debate?

Probably YouTube. I just watched it there and I can't imagine it will take long for them to serve it again.
posted by rhizome at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016


NBC talking heads: Trump had a good first 30 minutes. Clinton was prepared througout. And Trump won't do well with tomorrow's fact checkers.

Between that and "nasty woman," their reaction is that he lost.
posted by Gelatin at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


No handshake. Awkward.
posted by delight at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


For like the first and only time, I agree with Ailes: prepping was a waste of time.
posted by zachlipton at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


If any of you have a splitting headache from watching that, please consider this to help you sleep: Trump did nothing to help himself. Not a single damn thing. Many MANY things to hurt him. This was already over. Now it's more over.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Petebest, you really are the best. You did yeoman's work keeping up with what they were saying: future generations of Mefites will sing your praises as they mine these election threads for nuggets of meaning.
posted by Superplin at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [87 favorites]


Such weird optics: Clinton dives in the crowd

Not literally, sadly.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Crosstalk from the NYT live stream audio, which is still on:

"Governor of Mississippi. Cigarette mouth." [real]

Have no idea what the context is, but will leave it here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Ivanka, girl, what is going on with that single sleeve shirt???
posted by moonlight on vermont at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016


Post debate cams on C-SPAN;

Clinton: lots of touching and even some hugging and then chatting, all through the crowd

Trump: barely tolerated concession to touch (by his ENTIRE FAMILY) and milling around in a knot on stage
posted by porpoise at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think the unremarked moment I liked the most was the glint in her eye when he bragged about going to Miami's Little Haiti.
posted by carrienation at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


NBC is also focusing on the "I'll keep you in suspense" about accepting the election result.
posted by Gelatin at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016


Also, if you haven't seen the Gregory Brothers' songified version of Trump's "grab 'em by the pussy" video, you really should.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


He prepared for nothing.

He's pretty well prepared to be a sexual abuser. He practiced A LOT, apparently.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


thank god there was no handshake, there's only so much slime that clinton can handle
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


NBC commentary "There were a few minutes there where this really sounded like a presidential debate." -

Who is the guy who took Trumps legal pad, folded it in half and took it away?
posted by tilde at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


YOUR HUSBAND DISAGREES WITH YOU!

Well, good. She's clearly smarter than Bill. Not as charismatic, no, smarter, yes. Trump looked so damn DUMB, wow.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


PBS commentators are eviscerating him. "Incoherent". Appalling at "we'll see" if he'll accept the results of the election.
posted by Sublimity at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


CM: Thanks to the CPD, now the decision is up to you. We all agree we hope you will go vote, it is one of the honors of living in thsi country. Thank ou and Good night.

HRC shakes Chris' hand. Walks over to Trump, but he doesn't want to shake her hand. Hillary wades into the crowd. Trump shakes Crhis' hand. Trump stands around on stage, the Trumpkids show up (hi Tiffany!) and they stand there. Hillary works the crowd on the floor.

Trump walks offstage . . . wading into the crowd? Sort of . . . Hesitantly. HRCl takes pictures with fans. Trump meets some of the crowd. Nods a lot. Frowny trump face. Hillary is smiling, shaking hands.

Hillary is like after Church, smiling and hugging. Trump appears to have wandered off Pence and Palin are taling. Trump exits the room. Hillary still working the crowd who are pressing to the front to see her.
posted by petebest at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [46 favorites]


I just tuned into the CBC debriefing. Did Michael Enright just say (approvingly) that we saw a different Donald Trump tonight? (I love a lot of what he does on cultural topics, but he is an unabashed dispenser of conventional wisdom on American politics.)
posted by maudlin at 7:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


This may have been a trash fire, but it was the best debate period. The crowd could barely be heard on the TV broadcast, Clinton gave great, solid answers to great solid questions from Wallace. And Trump seemed like an idiot. We're gonna win big.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Dear god, please tell me the media narrative will go hard against Trump for NOT ACCEPTING OUR DEMOCRACY. Like, I cannot deal with life if everyone just shrugs and accepts that.
posted by yasaman at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


(Are they really both going to do the Al Smith dinner?)

Oh, that's going to be the passive-aggressive fourth debate. I don't know whether I'd prefer HRC to go on first and lightly rib him, then sit down while he asplode, or go on second after he bombs, do the classic Al Smith thing and sit down.
posted by holgate at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016


NBC talking heads: the rich asshole had a good first 30 minutes.

Yeah, good job counteracting the uppers with the downers, until the downers wore off.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Plenty of time for Donnie to flame out even worse, and cash is drying up, plus he said he might not except the election result. That is international news.
posted by vrakatar at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]




You know... all those people DJT invited in the audience and it didn't shake her one bit.

I admire her strength and composure so much.
posted by mochapickle at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Watching the post-debate handshaking and I am fangirling Hillary so hard I fear my brain may break.

I'll go back to normal, enthusiastic levels of support shortly.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Clinton is working the crowd, while Trump is out by his car.
posted by zachlipton at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Was that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and then Ted Danson congratulating her? Sometimes it's hard to tell these events from my anxiety dreams.
posted by chortly at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [48 favorites]


Add PBS to the list of "I'll keep you in suspense" being the top takeaway.
posted by klarck at 7:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


NBC now has a Republican saying Trump's refusal to accept the result of the election is the nail in the coffin.
posted by Gelatin at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


WaPo headline right now: Trump won’t commit to accepting election results if he loses

Subheadline: Clinton blasts Trump for ‘horrifying’ remark
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


Winner: Clinton

Losers: civil discourse and democracy
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [40 favorites]


Steve Schmidt says Donald's answer about a concession is "disqualifying".
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


She's still glad handing and he's already at the SUV.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016


There is a 0% chance that Donald Trump will make a concession speech on election night. There's only a 70% chance that he will admit he lost at any point afterward.
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, Jimmy Carter agress that we didn't steal the 2000 election fair and square, bless his heart.
posted by clavdivs at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016


Haha, I walked down the hall to where my husband was avoiding this debate and found him listening to "Pink Elephants on Parade" from Dumbo to drown out the sounds of the broadcast. Now he's listening to Janet Jackson's "Nasty." Excellent.
posted by limeonaire at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


petebest 2024: MetaFilterer Together
posted by tonycpsu at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Bad hombres and nasty women, y'all.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [58 favorites]


So I guess we'll get another 4 years of Kate McKinnon as President Clinton now.

But Alec Baldwin obviously needs the work
posted by vuron at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


I can only watch one network at a time, can we get some summaries of what, say, CNN is saying?
posted by zachlipton at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016


NBC is also going hard on the "suspense" line.

Nicolle Wallace: "on democracy... a disqualifying statement... a lights-out moment."
posted by holgate at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


petebest performed best during this debate ✌
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


There is at least one youtube stream replaying it right now, if you missed it and want to watch.
posted by mrgoat at 7:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, did he say "I'll keep you in suspense" in response to the question about accepting the election results??
posted by Room 641-A at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes, Danson and his wife Mary Steenburgen in the audience. Big Dem supporters for years.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


DJT in the audience, shaking hands(!) and kissing ladies. [real]
posted by mochapickle at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016


Did Donald Trump just shake hands with Vince Neil?
posted by tetsuo at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


omg talking to these dumbshit undecideds on CBS. This one lady moved from undecided TO TRUMP because he's got "the issues."
posted by phunniemee at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Well, good. She's clearly smarter than Bill. Not as charismatic, no, smarter, yes.

I don't think it's necessary to go there. Bill plays up the aw shucks regular guy thing but he was a Rhodes Scholar and is a lot smarter than his persona lets on.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


NBC commentator on Trump saying he would keep us in suspense about accepting results: like he layed down in his own coffin and nailed the lid shut himself
posted by mikepop at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Ooh! John Podesta just said Subdued Trump was from being thrown off his fame by serious questions.
posted by Gelatin at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Dear god, please tell me the media narrative will go hard against Trump for NOT ACCEPTING OUR DEMOCRACY. Like, I cannot deal with life if everyone just shrugs and accepts that.

well, if Politico's any indication ... yes
posted by philip-random at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


You guys, I followed this completely here on Metafilter and are popcorn the whole time. Eating popcorn while Trump gets torn apart is really satisfying.[real]
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Steve Schmidt called Trump a clear and present danger to the future of our democracy, so I think it's fair to say that people are not having it.
posted by Justinian at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Jon Lovett on Keeping it 1600: "The Trump train is like the Washington metro at this point, it is on fire, and delayed."
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


I shook her hand once. I'm proud.
posted by valkane at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is a cool graph.
posted by limeonaire at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oh, man, Jon Lovett in the KI1600 post-hoc discussion: "The Trump train is like the Washington Metro at this point: on fire, and delayed."

I have such an inappropriate crush.
posted by Superplin at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


YES - thank you petebest for all the great summaries. Really appreciated.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Again, as I said in the Super Tuesday thread eleventeen years ago, my old man could have changed the world years ago by stepping on the gas. Sorry again, everyone.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


"All network postgame analysis begins with Trump's refusal to promise to recognize the outcome of the election. Even Fox News #ByeFelicia" --@KeithOlbermann

Steve Schmidt on MSNBC: "He was like an old man sitting in the park feeding squirrels arguing with himself on the subject of Mosul"
posted by zachlipton at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


Thanks to everyone here who has helped to make this utterly bizarre election year bearable.
posted by njohnson23 at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]




Kellyanne Conway just now: "Please let me die" [Fake]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


NBC is going after Trump for the "I will not accept" too.
posted by Gelatin at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


like he layed down in his own coffin and nailed the lid shut himself

SHRILL HORRIBLE WITCH CACKLES
posted by poffin boffin at 7:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [39 favorites]


hillary should open her next rally with "Intergalactic" off the album Hello Nasty:

"Well, now, don't you tell me to smile
You stick around I'll make it worth your while"
posted by entropicamericana at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


Steve Schmidt: Trump an old man hanging out with squirrels arguing with himself
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016




Someone must have warned him about overusing the word "disaster" because I only counted four or five uses this time. That's four or five times in the space of 90 minutes. Wonder why that word is on his mind so much? Projection?
posted by fuse theorem at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016


NYT headline: Trump Won't Say if He Will Accept Election Results

sub: Debate Swerves From Policy to Personal Attacks
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


CBS has a focus group of undecided voters and the moderator is just so over it- "WHAT'S IT GOING TO TAKE?!" "COME ON!"

It's so hilarious
posted by Torosaurus at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway discussing the non-concession statement on CNN is making me appreciate how dead-on Kate McKinnon's SNL impression was.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Don gets in the black car with the family, retreating to his cloistered bubble and heading back to his hideout. Meanwhile, Hilz is still on the floor, meeting, hugging, shaking hands.
posted by Miko at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


And this graph of "Trump Iraq" is heartening.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


In other news, Chicago is up 6-2 at the top of the sixth. So, uh, 2016. Huh.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


I want a remake of The War Room that follows the Trump campaign team and has lots of shots of facepalming set to either sad trombones or Yakety Sax.

Seriously, I am morbidly curious about what it must have been like trying to manage this steaming pile of waste and then watching it all go up in sniffly flames - repeatedly. Can Trump legally prevent anyone from his staff from telling their stories to the public?
posted by bibliowench at 7:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


BBC certainly going strong on him saying the election is illegitimate and won't say whether he accepts the results of the election. I think that's going to lead the cycle, and it's going to make life verrrry interesting for the Republicans over the next couple of weeks.
posted by Devonian at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


The PBS commentators seem so downtrodden and disgusted. "Such a small man and a small mind." David Brooks looks like he wants to throw up.
posted by something something at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


This election isn't even Hermione vs. Draco, is it? It's Hermione vs. Dudley.
posted by ocherdraco at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [171 favorites]


I just wanted to say that for perspective I am kind of blown away by what a huge deal everyone is making about how Trump won't accept the results, it's not what I'm used to and I love that I was so lucky to end up moving here to the US.

I mean that kind of low blow is what I was used to when I lived in South America and I am so impressed that the US has such high standards, even though it might feel like things are a little depressing right now.

I arrived here as an immigrant and it was like arriving to someone's house and the house is super well kept and organized. I know you might find it hard to believe but yeah things can be a lot shittier. I have never met an immigrant who didn't feel this way.
posted by Tarumba at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [203 favorites]


If for nothing else (and there was else), Clinton won it on the way she engaged the audience - Trump looked peevish and cranky, she looked happy and glad to be talking to people.
posted by Death and Gravity at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


This one lady is saying she's still undecided. Dude in a blazer and sneakers yells at her and says "what do you want, what do you want." She says she's going to have to do some soul searching.

If you're still undecided at this point I suspect you may not have a soul to find.
posted by phunniemee at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [93 favorites]


Yes, Danson and his wife Mary Steenburgen in the audience. Big Dem supporters for years.

Steenburgen goes back with the Clintons to the Arkansas days.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


PBS is saying the election result line and the unwillingness to accept foreign intelligence re: Russia are the two main take-aways of the night.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Honestly kind of impressed that the media is horrified by this election rigging talk. Imagine what a civil war would do to ratings.
posted by acidic at 7:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


I have torn you
a new asshole
and won
this debate

which
you were probably
hoping
would save you

Forgive me
but you had it coming
so sweet
and so satisfying

posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [198 favorites]


I also bought more Hillary swag tonight, but surely someone's working on a Such a Nasty Woman shirt right now and I want one.
posted by rewil at 7:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


Can Trump legally prevent anyone from his staff from telling their stories to the public?

He makes everyone who works for him sign a NDA promising not to disparage him or damage his brand.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


All joking aside I do find the rigging talk really worrying. I seriously think some Trump supporters are going to try something when he loses. I hope Clinton has enough security.

Even if they don't, the second Clinton presidency will be like the first one: plagued by militant rightwing nuts and conspiracy theorists.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hillary is still working because she knows that this is part of her job. People want to be with her and the fact is, she wants to be with them. He is gone and doesn't give a shit about the little people. She understands that it is ALL about them. I love her. [Obviously]
posted by Sophie1 at 7:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [32 favorites]


it's hermione vs the dragon dung hagrid uses to fertilize his garden
posted by poffin boffin at 7:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


nasty boys (this comic is strangely accurate version as an alternate Trump past)
posted by litleozy at 7:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Matt Haughey ‏@mathowie
Trump "Nobody has more respect for women than I do."

Let's go to the video:
posted by joedan at 7:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [39 favorites]


But Alec Baldwin obviously needs the work
He's the voice of the title character in Dreamworks' upcoming animated feature "The Boss Baby". His Trump experience will serve him well.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


How long was her closing statement? I watched it and I just want to know - did she do some 59.99 seconds stuff? I just want to know. I know it wasn't exactly a minute, but it was that damn good that it felt like it.
posted by cashman at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Katy Tur is surprised Benghazi didn't come up. She says his campaign is pleased overall.
posted by kingless at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016


Frank Luntz is an asshole, but even he didn't deserve to have to wring opinions out of those indecisive halfwits.
posted by jackbishop at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


ABC hitting hard on the refusal to accept the results.
posted by adamg at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


surely someone's working on a Such a Nasty Woman shirt right now and I want one.

Oh, me too. Heck, if anyone wants to gin one up and donate some of the proceeds, sign me up.
posted by Miko at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


This is an insane shitfight over Al Gore and Florida.

Though I do agree that you cannot polish this turd.
posted by telepanda at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really liked how she managed to keep her suit white through that bloodbath /shit storm. It was a bold choice, I was super nervous that it was going to get ruined.
posted by humanfont at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


CBS has a focus group of undecided voters and the moderator is just so over it- "WHAT'S IT GOING TO TAKE?!" "COME ON!"

It's so hilarious


Where is this? I NEED DIS
posted by dhens at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Does anybody have a read on what conservative news outlets are saying about the debate? What about the fascists? I don't dare look.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Really, Chris Wallace, it's like you took a pair of novelty Groucho Glasses, and ripped off the eyebrows, nose and mustache, and decided THIS gave you gravitas. If there were lenses in them, they were made of Saran Wrap and hot-glued in.

There. I said it. I'm not sorry.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bill plays up the aw shucks regular guy thing but he was a Rhodes Scholar and is a lot smarter than his persona lets on.

Different times, different backgrounds, different people, but very similar in terms of wanting to know everything there is to know about stuff. I know people -- usually American grad students -- who've randomly bumped into Bill (and his Secret Service detail) on his trips to Oxford when Chelsea was there, and ended up having detailed conversations that tapped into the low-level stuff the students were researching for their masters and doctoral theses. I think of them in terms of the difference between voraciousness and fastidiousness.
posted by holgate at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Jeffrey Lord on CNN equating Trump's pussyfooting of constitutional crisis three weeks before the election with Al Gore not immediately conceding the 2000 race. When there was, y'know, an automatic recount in a decisive state.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


NBC News analysis: "every headline across the media right now is: Donald Trump won't accept the results."

This is done as of today.
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


NBC talking about Trump accepting the outcome.
posted by kingless at 7:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Still watching CNN.

I am desperately wishing for Anderson Cooper to go full-ninja and start killing people.
posted by Thistledown at 7:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Nasty Grrls by Childbirth
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


OMFG WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN ON ELECTION NIGHT MY ASS

AN ELECTION WILL HAPPEN
PER CAREFULLY CRAFTED RULES
AND THERE WILL BE A RESULT

CNN folks are falling apart, yo
posted by telepanda at 7:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton's closing statement was 60 seconds +/-1
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]




@stephenjay:
End of first debate:
HOLT: Will you accept the outcome of the election?
TRUMP: The answer is, if she wins, I will absolutely support her.
posted by penduluum at 7:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


I arrived here as an immigrant and it was like arriving to someone's house and the house is super well kept and organized. I know you might find it hard to believe but yeah things can be a lot shittier.

Thanks, Tarumba. Don't mind the pizza boxes strewn about the floor.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


NBC's Katy Tur said Trump turned in a better performace, but made some "easily fact checked statemwnts." (Lies.)

Chuck Todd agrees, and is practically bemoaning that the not-accepting-results statement will grab -- is grabbing -- all the headlines.

The NBC crew -- Brokaw, maybe? -- also said Clinton also gave her best performance.
posted by Gelatin at 7:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Mr. Madison Trump, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Can't wait to watch those poll numbers slide! #BlueTexas
posted by sallybrown at 7:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


NBC News analysis: "every headline across the media right now is: some rich asshole won't accept the results."

Start opening browser tabs and hitting major news sources. It's quite cathartic.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


TRUMP: The answer is, if she wins, I will absolutely support her.

Yeah, but in his defense, that was back when he had a chance to win.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Chris Wallace asked him flat-out if he'd accept the result. All he had to say in order to keep this out of the post-debate narrative was “YES” and he couldn't even do that

Even a very subtle wordless nod would have done it
posted by savetheclocktower at 7:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Even Fox is leading with Trump's refusal to accept results.
posted by Talez at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


And his closing was 1:06:45.
posted by guster4lovers at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just timed it. It was 1:00:40.

Freaking incredible.
posted by cashman at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


CSPAN: ladies and sane people for Hillary, angry shouting men for Trump.
posted by moons in june at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Just timed it. It was 1:00:40.

Queen.
posted by phunniemee at 7:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


The debates are over! Hallelujah! I feel like they just announced The Emancipation Proclamation. Now onward to Appomattox.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


First Debate: The answer is, if she wins, I will absolutely support her.

Second Debate: If I win, I will put her in jail.

Third Debate: I'll have to see if I accept the election results.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [77 favorites]


This election isn't even Hermione vs. Draco, is it? It's Hermione vs. Dudley.
posted by ocherdraco


SORRY BUT I HAVE TO

1. It was never Hermione vs Draco. Draco was a dark, sniveling, unlikeable little shit, yes, but he was also a child, and under immense social and familial pressure combined with a nurtured xenophobia that led to his awful actions, but also left room for his eventual PARTIAL redemption.

2. Dudley was a barely two dimensional foil that used fat-shaming as comedic relief and eventually he turned out to be a good guy too, that started out as a mistreated child with nurtured awfulness all around him.

3. Hil is totes Hermione and I LOVE THAT.

4. It's Hermione versus Crabbe. A thick-headed henchman not capable of leadership but perfectly eager to aid and abet, and whose eventual downfall is creating a firestorm he can't control that consumes him totally.

Also Tim is Ron, Egg is Crookshanks, and Vermin Supreme is Xenophilius Lovegood. I'm not 100% decided on those yet though.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [83 favorites]


Leslie Knope vs Old Man Yelling at Clouds

This was the least surprising result ever but somehow Trump somehow manages to dig a deeper hole for himself with each one of these debates.

I'm kind of wondering when the rest of the opposition research file eventually hits. Obviously Trump is losing but the Clinton campaign will want to run up the score like an Alabama vs Division II non-conference game result.
posted by vuron at 7:56 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


check out the comments over at the guardian, they are GLO-RI-OUS
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


But he also wished her good luck with Daesh, kinda admitting she's going to win, so...I need a break.
posted by vrakatar at 7:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm amazed at reading up thread that Tur and Todd had those opinions.

FWIW, the PBS crew (Shields, Woodruff, Brooks, Goodman) 100% united in that being a great night for Clinton and a terrible night for Trump.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


That was difficult to watch. Trump is not an informed or qualified candidate, and has not the social skills to negotiate the survival of the Planet, or the United States.
posted by Oyéah at 7:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


One odd thing is that Trump made no effort to talk up his newfound ethics program (because he just discovered ethics exists). There was no "drain the swamp" talk. I think he couldn't be bothered to memorize a talking point.
posted by zachlipton at 7:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Can I just say how much it weirds me out that PBS is using a Led Zeppelin guitar riff to frame their election coverage adverts? (Good Times, Bad Times)
posted by Sublimity at 7:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Poor Tom Brokaw is the only one of the NBC crew impressed with how prepared Clinton was.
posted by Gelatin at 7:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can't wait to hear Sassy Trump refusing to accept the results.
posted by Catblack at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tim is Ron

No Tim is ron's dad
posted by Tarumba at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Next Hillary campaign ad [fake except in my dreams]:

1st clip: Donald Trump, in response to the first question about SCOTUS, saying he supports interpreting the Constitution strictly, as the Founders intended.

2nd clip: Donald Trump being asked whether he will accept the results of this election, saying "I'll look at it at the time."

3rd clip: Khizr Khan saying "Have you even read the US Constitution? I will gladly lend you my copy."
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [81 favorites]


I think he couldn't be bothered to memorize a talking point.

That's what happens when you just wing shit and make fun of the people who prepare. She was clearly prepared, and it was just so impressive.
posted by cashman at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


3. Hil is totes Hermione and I LOVE THAT.

Hermione + Leslie Knope + Jo March + Lizzie Bennet

As one of those girls who raised her hand all the time in school, so much that I knew people snickered it was too much, I'm beaming from her performance tonight.
posted by mochapickle at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [75 favorites]


Lead of the CBC 10 pm news: Trump won't accept the outcome.
posted by maudlin at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hermione vs. Dudley

Leslie Knope vs Old Man Yelling at Clouds


Mark Proksch (@m_proksch)
This is like watching Daria debate Yosemite Sam
posted by bibliowench at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [49 favorites]


I have a new respect for David Brooks. I imagine for people deeply invested in covering news in the US, this election is depressing, if not outright terrifying. We are a nation of worn out adrenal glands.
posted by Oyéah at 8:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


One guy on CNN: "You cannot polish this turd..."

Anderson Cooper: "Technically, you can't polish ANY turd."
posted by invincible summer at 8:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [62 favorites]


BRK: Gloria Allred announces a new Trump sexual assault victim will come forward on Thursday. #debate" --@christinawilkie

Gloria Allred was born for this.
posted by zachlipton at 8:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


After a bit of thought, and pardon if this has come up before, but I think I understand Trump's word salad. Remember the late 90's and how you'd click on the top result from Alta Vista or Hot Bot, and the page would just have a massive blank space at the bottom, but your cursor would show that there was text? And if you highlighted the text, it would show just an unending stream of random words that were guaranteed to bump the page up towards the top of the results? Super primitive SEO stuff?

That's what Trump's speaking patterns remind me of, but for a modern day MRA Fox News website.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [54 favorites]


Every front page in the US and Europe is only leading with the failure to concede story.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


im weirdly excited that the thread is at 1776 comments
posted by poffin boffin at 8:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [38 favorites]


Ha: NBC does pre-packaged segment on puppets that look like the candidates. If they only knew!
posted by mochapickle at 8:02 PM on October 19, 2016


Anderson Cooper: "Technically, you can't polish ANY turd."

Oh Anderson, have I got good news for you!
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Some volunteers at the Hillary rally I went to last week were spray painting these awesome Hillary stencils with chalk paint in bright blue and pink and underneath her profile they said YAAAS.

YAAAS is how I feel right now. I mean on top of the lingering disquiet and disbelief that Donald Trump ever got to this point in the first place.
posted by danielleh at 8:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Brian Williams calls on Hugh Hewitt to start the pundit panel discussion and Hewitt was just sitting there listening to the question looking like he's making a very sad poop.
posted by zachlipton at 8:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I love Van Jones on CNN. He quotes R Kelly (I think) in exasperation when describing Trump in the debate: "he lies about the lies he lied about!"
posted by lydhre at 8:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


OK - BBC news has finished its debate coverage and is going to the top of the hour... and guess what the lead is?

Aw, you guessed.

"One huge takeaway from this debate..."

The thing he said immediately before, that there were millions of voters illegally registered, was new to me. What was that?
posted by Devonian at 8:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Bad Hombre and the Nasty Women" is the name of my next band.
posted by jferg at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [80 favorites]


NBC News analysis: "every headline across the media right now is: Donald Trump won't accept the results."

This is done as of today.


This really does need to be the #1 question posed to every Republican pol running for anything and anybody commenting on any show. Anyone who hedges or dodges or defends Trump needs to be labeled forever as a craven unpatriotic quisling.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


Hugh Hewitt is a real garbage person
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ha: NBC does pre-packaged segment on puppets that look like the candidates. If they only knew!

They did. #RiggedAF
posted by Golem XIV at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


who is yelling in the background on CNN? They are going bananas

Also CNN, NBC seem to agree this is a slow burning debate, Trump's talk will come back to haunt him in the next few days, not necessarily immediately
posted by Tarumba at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2016


CNN Commentator Van Jones is amazing. On trumpistas trying to defend Trumps accepting the elections results -- "This is a turd that you can't polish!" :)

oops- should have previewed. Still Van is the man!
posted by TwoToneRow at 8:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I love Van Jones on CNN. He quotes R. Kelly (I think) in exasperation when describing Trump in the debate: "he lies about the lies he lied about!"
posted by lydhre at 11:03 PM on October 19 [+] [!]


It was actually LL Cool J. First record, he said.
posted by Thistledown at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is it too soon to call Texas for Clinton? I'm Texan, and I have no illusions, but... come on. She hit it out of the park so hard tonight I thought I was watching the Cubs bat.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Such A Nasty Woman / Bad Hombre 2016!
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


My debate recap is here.
posted by limeonaire at 8:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The thing he said immediately before, that there were millions of voters illegally registered, was new to me. What was that?

That's a big rightwing conspiracy theory and has been for years.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Bad Hombre and the Nasty Women" is the name of my next band.
posted by jferg at 10:04 PM on 10/19


More like a couple's Halloween costume.
posted by that's how you get ants at 8:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


The thing he said immediately before, that there were millions of voters illegally registered, was new to me. What was that?

There actually are people who are improperly registered- i.e. people who moved and never changed their registration, people who've died and haven't been struck from the rolls. That actually exists. The lie is where Trump (and let's face it, every other Republican for the last twenty years no matter how much they now try to pretend otherwise) pretends that those registrations are a Democratic conspiracy to rig elections through in-person voter fraud.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


The debates will end with not a single question asked about climate change. --@alexwagner
posted by zachlipton at 8:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


He makes everyone who works for him sign a NDA promising not to disparage him or damage his brand.

Does he have the liquidity to take on 500 NDA cases at once? Or the legal staff? Because he has literally stiffed non-staff lawyers he hired in past cases.
posted by holgate at 8:06 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can we please take a moment to acknowledge my computer, who bravely stood up to TV through windows media center, a muted c-span window (backup), a constantly refreshing metafilter page, and an open fretful tetris window for that whole time and only just now, once everything was finished and I was closing windows, threw up the bsod.

You fought valiantly, my friend.
posted by phunniemee at 8:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [98 favorites]


Over on Fox News, Megyn Kelly puts Jason Miller on the spot about Trump's response about conceding the election. Jason Miller spins it not DJT undermining democracy, but as putting election fraudsters "on notice."

Jason Miller is the worst.
posted by mochapickle at 8:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


The debates will end with not a single question asked about climate change. --@alexwagner

But Clinton brought it up herself.

(Though she didn't dwell on it.)
posted by Gelatin at 8:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Van Jones! Yeah, that's the guy, I was hoping his name would pop up on my screen but didn't catch it. He's awesome. I've been watching a lot of CNN lately (it's about as close to opposition-research-news-watching as I can stomach) and I have really enjoyed his commentary.
posted by invincible summer at 8:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


While You Were Watching The Debate, Trump Just Launched Trump TV

In the minutes before the third and final Presidential debate, Donald Trump went live on Facebook in what may have been the inaugural broadcast of a forthcoming Trump News Network.

A little after 8:30 P.M., Trump’s official Facebook page posted the link to the live video, offering up an alternative to the mainstream broadcast. The message: “If you’re tired of biased, mainstream media reporting (otherwise known as Crooked Hillary’s super PAC), tune into my Facebook Live broadcast. Starts at 8:30 EST/5:30 PST — you won’t want to miss it. Enjoy!”
The broadcast quickly ballooned to around 200,000 concurrent viewers but quickly fell off to around 120,000. As of the middle of the debate, the feed was holding steady at around 170,000, trailing only the ABC News debate feed on the platform.

The livestream featured punditry from retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn and former Arizona Governor Jan Brewer and in place of commercials, the feed was interspersed with pro-Trump ads and a special message from Ivanka Trump. Looking more like public access than a glitzy cable news offering, the broadcast moved slowly between guests with at least one or two hot mic off moments where the hosts discussed where the next segment was headed. There were also hints of some surprise programming after the debate ends.

posted by futz at 8:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


I know I can't be the only reluctant Hillary voter who was swayed to being an enthusiastic Hillary voter tonight. This was the debate I needed - not only was she poking the bear effectively, but she finally sounded like she was doing more that repeating soundbites. She was poised, in control, and even emotional at times.

I cried when Obama was elected because for the first time in my lifetime, the candidate I had campaigned for, donated to, and voted for was the president. He represented me in so many ways, and I was so proud to be part of the reason he was elected.

It took tonight for me to feel that way about Hillary. I've never had doubts about her competency, or her fitness for leadership. But she didn't move me the way Obama always did. And don't get me wrong - I was always going to vote for her.

But tonight, I'm actually with her.
posted by guster4lovers at 8:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [102 favorites]


@DLeonhardt:

Trump, enemy of democracy:
1) My opponent shouldn't be allowed to run
2) If I lose, I may dispute outcome
3) If I win, she will go to jail.
posted by gwint at 8:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [46 favorites]


Can we please take a moment to acknowledge my computer, who bravely stood up to TV through windows media center, a muted c-span window (backup), a constantly refreshing metafilter page, and an open fretful tetris window for that whole time and only just now, once everything was finished and I was closing windows, threw up the bsod.

.
posted by Gelatin at 8:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


But Clinton brought it up herself.

No moderator did, so there was never a substantial discussion.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:09 PM on October 19, 2016


Can we please make #nastywoman the answer to #deplorable
posted by chaoticgood at 8:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


The thing he said immediately before, that there were millions of voters illegally registered, was new to me. What was that?

it's lies believed by morons
posted by poffin boffin at 8:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


According to a friend if 'SHE' is elected, then Sharia law will be here, which won't affect 'men, but I'm a woman so I'm screwed'.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Marcos Mateo Ochoa on Twitter:

To all my fellow #badhombres and #nastywomen remember you have the power to vote!!! #debatenight
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


Looking more like public access than a glitzy cable news offering, the broadcast moved slowly between guests with at least one or two hot mic off moments where the hosts discussed where the next segment was headed. There were also hints of some surprise programming after the debate ends.

So Trump's big plan after he loses the election is to become a YouTube vlogger?
posted by My Dad at 8:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


CNN people keep saying hombre but pronounce hambre which means hunger and it's pretty funny.
posted by Tarumba at 8:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


According to a friend if 'SHE' is elected, then Sharia law will be here, which won't affect 'men, but I'm a woman so I'm screwed'.

DTFMA
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


Polished coprolite necklace and here are some earrings. If you're feeling saucy and/or gifty.
posted by amtho at 8:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


like Trump said "We have a bad case of the hunger" rather than bad men
posted by Tarumba at 8:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


There actually are people who are improperly registered- i.e. people who moved and never changed their registration, people who've died and haven't been struck from the rolls. That actually exists.

Voter registration is pushed at you when you renew a drivers license online even if you're not a citizen -- I was asked twice by the online system, with the default as "yes". I have to switch it to "no". But as a non-citizen, I don't even get out of my car if I drive someone to the polling place.

The sane approach is a federal register of voters that is shared with the states and uses federal stuff like USPS change of address forms. And push-driven registration, not pull-driven ones. But when you have a cohort of people who are happy with their Social Security benefits but don't want a federal role in federal elections, that's a basic democracy headfuck.
posted by holgate at 8:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hugh Hewitt: "I think Donald Trump won 14 out of 15 rounds."

Da fuck was he watching?
posted by zakur at 8:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


So Trump's big plan after he loses the election is to become a YouTube vlogger?


I never doubted this. It was looking a little dicey for him for a while like he might actually have to be President (*turns three times, spits*), the poor lamb, but things are back on track now.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


like Trump said "We have a bad case of the hunger" rather than bad men

You wouldn't like him when he's hangry.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah. DJT fucking failed. Hoo Ray. Everyone knew he was gonna anyway. HRC just blabbed we're at war with Russia. I am watching episodes of Parker Lewis Can't Lose to unclench, and Kubiak is my spirit animal and/or fursona.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jr Cheeto is talking about teaching poor children about the dignity of work on MSNBC.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2016


So Trump TV will be a shitty web stream channel?

I guess now that he's finished running as a nominee for President he can get back to selling shitty products.

Grifters gonna grift I guess
posted by vuron at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


True story: as soon as the debate was over, I ran out to the nearest taco truck.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [28 favorites]


Van Jones vs pink pleather lady who is anti political correctness

Omg she is horrible. So is her stuffy old white guy friend.

OMFG YOURE AN AMERICAN IM AN AMERICAN I DONT SEE WHY THATS OFFENSIVE

Anderson Cooper: I'm not sure 1950s American TV is the best guide on language
White people: Mmm, not seeing it.
Latina lady: Actually it's really offensive
White folks: WE ARENT OFFENDED

Gaaaaaaaahhh
posted by telepanda at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


Oh, it's Bateman Jr in the spin room. Trump Jr, Pence and Trump Loser al in Henderson County in the space of a fortnight, knowing that the nearly-deads who make up the HendoCo Bircher brigade are their main hope in WNC.
posted by holgate at 8:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hugh Hewitt: "I think Donald Trump won 14 out of 15 rounds."

Da fuck was he watching?


Expecting reality based analysis from right wing radio hosts is like expecting honest questions from right wing moderators.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I just have the audio of CNN. Who is the guy defending "bad hombres" right now? Is he joking? He's talking in such a weird, performative way. I really can't tell if it's a goof or not.
posted by roll truck roll at 8:15 PM on October 19, 2016


So Trump's big plan after he loses the election is to become a YouTube vlogger?

Wait, do they allow livestreams from prison?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


She knows what she knows. She is calm, collected, thoughtful and tough. He is a malignant narcissist who can't complete a sentence better than a 4th grader. She killed it and if she's a nasty woman, I can't imagine what he would think of some of the rest of us.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


>Jr Cheeto is talking about teaching poor children about the dignity of work

Which he is qualified to talk about because _______________
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Anderson Cooper: "Technically, you can't polish ANY turd."

But you *can* roll it in glitter.
posted by mikelieman at 8:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


Hombre!
posted by vrakatar at 8:17 PM on October 19, 2016


futz: The livestream featured punditry from retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn and former Arizona Governor Jan Brewer and in place of commercials, the feed was interspersed with pro-Trump ads and a special message from Ivanka Trump.

Ah, yes, Jan Brewer, whose proudest moment was wagging her finger at President Obama on the tarmac.

Fitting company, indeed.
posted by Superplin at 8:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


So Trump's big plan after he loses the election is to become a YouTube vlogger?

I'm imagining another Alex Jones with about 40% more traction. Not sure that's something the US or the world really needs.
posted by iffthen at 8:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the fact check on LL Cool J, I am about as musically inclined as a box of donuts.
posted by lydhre at 8:17 PM on October 19, 2016


Until a fortnight ago I never knew that the name of Obvious Anagram Reince Preibus was pronounced "Rye-nce" and not "Rince" or "Rumplestiltskin".
posted by holgate at 8:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hey, former Canadian PM Jean Chretien, what do you think about Trump?

"When Hillary had pneumonia, there are pills to help you against pneumonia, but apparently there is no pill against something like stupidity."

Thanks, former Canadian PM Jean Chretien!

(yes, it was before the debate. Still.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


I didn't watch this. Is there a single serving debate recap somewhere that doesn't involved reading 1,000 comments?
posted by codacorolla at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2016


I'm picturing Al Gore, sitting in his living room in a bathrobe, looking at his TV screen and rubbing his bleary eyes, wondering why these people on TV are invoking his name to defend the indefensible.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]



Yeah. DJT fucking failed. Hoo Ray. Everyone knew he was gonna anyway. HRC just blabbed we're at war with Russia. I am watching episodes of Parker Lewis Can't Lose to unclench, and Kubiak is my spirit animal and/or fursona.

Uh she didn't need to blab. It's been pretty clear for a number of weeks that there is at least a very warm war going on.
I mean Maddow was talking last night about how Russia has finished setting up a ground to air defense system in Syria, you know to fight all of ISIS planes obviously.

Everything that Putin has been doing these past few months has been setting the stage for some sort of conflict.
posted by Jalliah at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just timed it. It was 1:00:40.

Backwards in high heels, darling.
posted by spitbull at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [123 favorites]


Just timed it. It was 1:00:40.

None more Knope.
posted by holgate at 8:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [35 favorites]


Hugh Hewitt: "I think Donald Trump won 14 out of 15 rounds."

Hewitt has the wrong metaphor. Yo, man, it ain't like that. You come at the queen, you best not miss.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh my dear sweet lord.

So I whipped through that math test, finished 8 minutes after the debate start time, booked it to my car while reading the thread, sat in my car reading for like five minutes before I realized the debate was also on the radio. So I ended up driving home to Everett from Bellevue in rush hour traffic with that man's horrible voice in my ears, which is not good for preventing road rage. Anyway, that thing when he drops his voice down real soft? It's even creepier on the radio. Makes him sound like he's grooming a victim.

My impression from just listening to it this time on a crackly AM radio station is that she was spitting hot fire for a lot of that debate, whereas he was a rambling hot mess of NO U and THE WAAAAALLLLLLL. Poor little guy couldn't hold his shit together at all, huh.
posted by palomar at 8:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


I just have the audio of CNN. Who is the guy defending "bad hombres" right now? Is he joking? He's talking in such a weird, performative way. I really can't tell if it's a goof or not.

He's dead fucking serious. It's scary. But I am really enjoying watching the sane commentators be flabbergasted. So there's that.
posted by telepanda at 8:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


So Trump TV will be a shitty web stream channel?

Hopefully it's just going to be a bunch of Twitch Let's Plays with Trump playing pervy Japanese dating sims.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]




Giuliani is a shitty stick dipped in more shit and spun around to spray shit everywhere.
posted by holgate at 8:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I am still trying to figure out how you have an abortion at 39 weeks.
posted by xyzzy at 8:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm just surprised he didn't mention his ethics/drain the swamp stuff. It actually would have been an effective attack. He could have gone after her for taking money from foreign lobbyists, ranted about term limits and career politicians, and done a whole "clean up Washington" thing that actually would have resonated, but not one word.
posted by zachlipton at 8:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm still tying to figure out how to abort Giuliani.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Kelly Anne has aged 15 years in the last 2 months
posted by Tarumba at 8:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


So in summation, the Everclear Jell-O shots I made halfway in were a great idea and not bad at all.
posted by corb at 8:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [82 favorites]


I need a gif of Maddow literally shaking at how insane that Guiliani/Conway interview was, please.
posted by zachlipton at 8:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Bill Bennett on Fox: "Is she nasty? Is she a woman? Yes! Yes!" Boooooooo.
posted by mochapickle at 8:24 PM on October 19, 2016


Ok. I watched that. Then I watched a bunch of Hillary campaign ads as a palate cleanser. (really liked the 'Betsy' one). Now I'm going to eat half a brick of cheese. Don't judge me.
posted by sexyrobot at 8:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Ugh Mike Pence on C-SPAN. Christ, what an asshole. Everyone asking if he accepts the results of the election.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm just surprised he didn't mention his ethics/drain the swamp stuff. It actually would have been an effective attack. He could have gone after her for taking money from foreign lobbyists, ranted about term limits and career politicians, and done a whole "clean up Washington" thing that actually would have resonated, but not one word.

He likely went in with a whole lot of things planned. Thought he was going to show everyone! But he's Trump and as soon as Clinton pushed the button most of it goes out the window. He can't not be baited and keep on track.
posted by Jalliah at 8:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


According to a friend if 'SHE' is elected, then Sharia law will be here, which won't affect 'men, but I'm a woman so I'm screwed'.

Wait... Clinton is a Secret Muslim like Obama?

The rabbit-hole is a five-dimensional Klein bottle (timecube?) I can't keep up!
posted by anonymisc at 8:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


CNN people keep saying hombre but pronounce hambre which means hunger and it's pretty funny.

I am hungry for the disappearance of these men, does that count?
posted by corb at 8:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Just share the other half of that brick. We're in this together.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


The reality is that Putin kind of wishes that there was a war in order to help hide the fact that Russia is basically a failed Petro-State. It's easier to focus people's attention on some external enemy rather than deal with the consequences of his mediocre management of the Russian economy.

I suspect that at least at the cyber-warfare level state actors on both sides are probably already hard at work if for no other reason than to discourage similar activities to modify election results in the future.
posted by vuron at 8:27 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Bill Bennett on Fox

Oh fuck they let him into the casinos again.
posted by holgate at 8:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


MSNBC has a focus group of 32 undecided in Columbus, Ohio. 11 Hillary won, 10 Trump won, 11 neither won. But 11 went to Hillary, 5 to Trump, rest still undecided. Panel says Trump missed opportunities and hurt himself by going too negative (who was most negative? 21 Trump, 1 Hillary, rest both equally negative), people walk away when he gets too negative.

First panel member thinks both did candidates did well, but says the rigging moment "was [Trump] disrespecting the democracy of the United States."
posted by zachlipton at 8:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Aaaand we're back to yelling about Al Gore over here on C-Span

Jeffrey is a twit.
posted by telepanda at 8:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]



I need a gif of Maddow literally shaking at how insane that Guiliani/Conway interview was, please.


I'm still pissed that she had that softball interview with Conway and then tried to get Trump on her fucking show to be honest. Everyone was talking about it like it was some sort of masterstroke, but she was just trying to take advantage of a tight race and a big "get" with Trump. Gross.
posted by zutalors! at 8:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


You deliver early at 39 weeks a foetus that has no brain, because you looked late, and the mother is going to die from regular contractions attendant to birth, that is how that happens. Baby is already dead, contractions will kill Mom, because of some change in her health. I was at a hospital where a mom with twins came in to deliver, her first visit to a doctor for the entire pregnancy, was the day of delivery, and she died. She was a complete unknown to the OB, it was devastating to him, he had no way to see it coming. This stuff is awful, and it is personal. There is not a recipe for this kind of disaster.
posted by Oyéah at 8:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [124 favorites]


I'm so over these undecideds. They're not undecided, they're apathetic and ignorant.
posted by Justinian at 8:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [83 favorites]


Alternate nasty woman tee source by SurlyAmy (tweet). She's going to donate 10% to PP.
posted by R343L at 8:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well! That was bracing.

I want my Nasty Woman t-shirt right now. Might have to just walk down to the Shirt Shack tomorrow and get one made.
posted by HotToddy at 8:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


MSNBC has a focus group of 32 undecided in Columbus, Ohio. 11 Hillary won, 10 Trump won, 11 neither won.

Thank fuck that nobody will be focus-grouping undecided voters in Ohio in mid-October ever a-fucking-gain. The undecided voter industry in Ohio is heading down the shitter fast.
posted by holgate at 8:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yeah, equating Al Gore's contesting of the results with what Trump said...I'm all out of evens, as the kids say.
posted by carrienation at 8:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Alternate nasty woman tee source by SurlyAmy (tweet). She's going to donate 10% to PP.

I actually cackled. This is beautiful.
posted by mochapickle at 8:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Undecided voters stay thinking they're the smartest, most policy-focused people in the world :/
posted by acidic at 8:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


So in summation, the Everclear Jell-O shots I made halfway in were a great idea and not bad at all.

Grain We Can Believe In
posted by tonycpsu at 8:32 PM on October 19, 2016


PALIN just now to reporters: Trump will only accept a "legitimate" election and anything else would betray those who "died" for freedom --@costareports
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on October 19, 2016


The MSNBC focus group just overwhelmingly expressed that a kinder, gentler Trump would be winning now.
posted by Small Dollar at 8:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


CNN SNAP POLL. (notes that D/R split is closer to national average than previous debates.)

Clinton 52%
Trump 39%
posted by Justinian at 8:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


Every time I think "How the everloving f*ck can someone be undecided," I'm reminded that there are people who actually are voting for Trump."
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:33 PM on October 19, 2016 [53 favorites]


Was it just me or did it look like Trump's note page was visible to cameras as he tore it off after the debate?
posted by orchidarea at 8:34 PM on October 19, 2016


"a kinder, gentler Trump"

do you also have handy some water that's made entirely out of fire, or maybe some down that's actually up?
posted by komara at 8:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [38 favorites]


The MSNBC focus group just overwhelmingly expressed that a kinder, gentler Trump would be winning now.

That was shocking.
posted by zutalors! at 8:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm reminded that there are people who actually are voting for Trump."

Nah, that actually makes more sense. Those people are assholes. There have been assholes since there have been people, but not being able to decide between these two is something I just can't even.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


CNN: It's a hat trick on debates for Clinton.
"Such a nasty woman" was poorly thought out.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:35 PM on October 19, 2016


(Eek my previous comment coming just after R343L's makes it sound like I want to rip off that design. Just a coincidence, we posted at the same time!)
posted by HotToddy at 8:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]



Every time I think "How the everloving f*ck can someone be undecided," I'm reminded that there are people who actually are voting for Trump."


There was a thing with one of the CNN undecideds, where he said that some people there weren't actually undecided, htey just said they were voting third party and that CNN wouldn't let them.
posted by corb at 8:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Another set of Nasty Woman shirts (and a sticker). All profits to Planned Parenthood.
posted by maudlin at 8:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Such a nasty woman" was poorly thought out.

That's cute, they thought it was thought out.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


CNN SNAP POLL.

Oh snap! 100%
posted by Room 641-A at 8:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Such a nasty woman" was poorly thought out.

Hey guys, remember that "binders full of women" was something we all made fun of?

Yeah. Those were good times.
posted by zachlipton at 8:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


Check out the redirect on nastywomengetshitdone.com
posted by maudlin at 8:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


From Twitter:

The @HillaryClinton team has already purchased nastywomengetshitdone.com and it redirects to the campaign site. 👏👏👏
posted by antinomia at 8:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


If you liked Binders Full of Women, try #TrumpBookReport.
posted by limeonaire at 8:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


Do yourselves a favour and check out the #trumpbookreport tag on Twitter.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


I would advise people not to buy any non-official merchandise. Let the groups who will directly and definitely profit make their own merchandise.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Binders Full of Nasty Women
posted by gatorae at 8:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


vuron: As someone said in the Russia thread a couple days ago, Russia's problem is that Putin has siphoned significant funds to himself and his pals. I'm sure that, had Russia been managed by a responsible, uncorrupt government, those petro dollars would have led to lasting development. They have huge intellectual and industrial resources that have decayed because of Putin's rule. Russia is a prime of example of what happens when a [relatively] prosperous nation, with profound potential, lets itself fall victim to the slow drain of economic and political corruption.
posted by constantinescharity at 8:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


No, the Nasty Women won't get put into binders.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


To review:

Clinton: "Donald thinks that belittling women makes him bigger."
Trump: "Such a nasty woman."
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [53 favorites]


Trump's "such a nasty woman" comment makes my skin crawl the more I think about it. It's the flip-side to "our wives and daughters" that men always pretend not to understand, and it's completely of a piece with his obsession with beauty pageants and his own daughter's appearance. He genuinely believes that a woman arguing with him is ESPECIALLY repellant and disgusting, because it's unladylike. It's "nasty." He admires women like beauty queens who are very poised and conventionally feminine and never say anything controversial because those women excel at the role he believes they inherently belong in, which is always beneath him. Like, these guys rarely make it THIS clear that when they say, "We should revere and honor women," they mean, "as long as they know their goddamn place."
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [169 favorites]


As a bearded dude who presents pretty masculine I'd hesitate to wear a Nasty Woman t-shirt for fear that someone might think I'm being mocking or sarcastic or ironic or whatever.

But as soon as there's a good "I'm with nasty women" design, I'm all over it.
posted by komara at 8:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


I would advise people not to buy any non-official merchandise. Let the groups who will directly and definitely profit make their own merchandise.

Many people can't buy official campaign merchandise.
posted by Jalliah at 8:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


The @HillaryClinton team has already purchased nastywomengetshitdone.com and it redirects to the campaign site.

Not Hillary:
Registrant Name: c/o WHOIStrustee.com Limited
Registrant Organization: Registrant of nastywomengetshitdone.com
Registrant Street: Riverside View
Registrant City: Thornes Lane
Registrant State/Province: Wakefield
Registrant Postal Code: WF1 5QW
Registrant Country: GB
posted by jammer at 8:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's almost certainly another case of a third party jumping on the domain and redirecting it (whoever it was used a registree-masking service this time), but well played.
posted by Shmuel510 at 8:42 PM on October 19, 2016


This stuff is awful, and it is personal. There is not a recipe for this kind of disaster.

I still point to Cynthia Gorney's "Gambling With Abortion", which I first read just before the 2004 election, as a touchstone on late-term abortion and the grotesque way it has been politicised when it is always personally traumatic.
posted by holgate at 8:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Do yourselves a favour and check out the #trumpbookreport tag on Twitter.

This is the greatest thing ever!
posted by Room 641-A at 8:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ha: Undecided woman on CNN encourages DJT to take an anatomy class because babies are not "ripped out."
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Getting bigger while you belittle women, is called a fetish.
posted by Oyéah at 8:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


To sum up my friends. "Clinton doesn't care about anyone. Neither does Trump, but he loves this country and she wants nothing but power."
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:43 PM on October 19, 2016


there is no way she bought a URL with "shit" in the title.
posted by emjaybee at 8:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm only able to watch MSNBC, but I'm conflicted about the near-total focus on the rigged election stuff. It's obviously hugely important but she won the debate on so many other issues, too.
posted by acidic at 8:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ha: Undecided woman on CNN encourages DJT to take an anatomy class because babies are not "ripped out."

Saw on twitter: "the baby is pulled out and murdered. this is called a partial birth murder"
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


To sum up my friends. "Clinton doesn't care about anyone. Neither does Trump, but he loves this country and she wants nothing but power."

...friends?
posted by zutalors! at 8:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, you need some new friends.

I will be your friend.
posted by mochapickle at 8:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [41 favorites]


Hillary's white suit -- at the convention and here at the final debate -- is a deliberate call-out to the suffragettes who marched for their right to vote wearing all white. She's identifying herself within a tradition and a history of American women fighting for political rights and it is awesome.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [275 favorites]


...friends?

Eh what can I say? Doubt even half of them are registered to vote
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


OMG C-SPAN is showing the Drudge Report "who won the debate" poll.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:47 PM on October 19, 2016


OMG Donald Trump Jr. just spewed the "he signs the front of the paycheck" line that is the second-strongest sign of the speaker being an asshole behind "has the last name 'Trump.'"
posted by tonycpsu at 8:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Eyebrows McGee, it's ok that you just made me cry, I'm just practicing for election night.
posted by zutalors! at 8:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Hillary's white suit -- at the convention and here at the final debate -- is a deliberate call-out to the suffragettes who marched for their right to vote wearing all white.

Also how Gandalf triumphantly wore white in the third movie.
posted by mochapickle at 8:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, you need some new friends.


I will also be your friend, but I can't promise to spell your name right. Sorry.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [54 favorites]


CNN Espanol is focused more on the "bad hombres" than the rigged stuff.

This is not better for Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]




Trump Jr. is jacked as hell.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump is a free-form poet.

I rather prefer Archy's vers libre.

Did Trump just for real say "such a nasty woman"?

...

What a disorganized, demoralizing, negative closing statement from Trump - even for him. National treasure Chunk Tingle's description was overly kind: "in closing remarks trumps attempts lackluster impression of a human being that does not want to eat your eyes and drag you to the void." (An earlier comment - "bubbling mass of cosmic horrors don trumps losing focus, staring off into darkness and yearning to slip back into the embrace of the void" - does describe the second half of every debate for Trump quite accurately, though.)

Thank goodness this is hopefully the last time I have to hear Trump's incoherent & abhorrent word salad live. At this point the sound of his voice sets my teeth on edge. (I'd say "the last time I have to hear him live, barring his concession speech," but what're the odds of that speech actually happening???)
posted by ubersturm at 8:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Like, in a way managing to convey on national television, "Can you believe the GALL of this WOMAN, participating in public life instead of SHUTTING UP like a GOOD WOMAN" in only four words is an achievement.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump Jr. is jacked as hell.

He stole from daddy's stash and replaced the portion he took with confectioner's sugar.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


"binders full of women"

I actually watched one of the Obama Romney debates a few days ago when I was feeling nostalgic and I guess I forgot how annoyingly slappable Romney was. I was looking at the past with rose tinted glasses, cause ughhhhhh
posted by Tarumba at 8:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


Russia is a prime of example of what happens when a [relatively] prosperous nation, with profound potential, lets itself fall victim to the slow drain of economic and political corruption.

Granted that oligarchic Russia under Putin goes to lethal and coercive extremes, the candidacy and success to this point of Donald J. Trump makes it plain that the US is in this precise jeopardy for the foreseeable future.
posted by mwhybark at 8:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Newsweek had a good op-ed (crazy year, right?) - "Young Minds in the Era of American Depravity"

One does not need to be terribly sophisticated, nor loyal to any particular ideology, in order to detect that something has gone wrong at the roots. What I am proposing is that young voters, and a great deal of older ones, have in their minds the ineradicable and subterranean suspicion that the whole world has lost the plot. What follows, what has followed, what we are seeing, are the early tremors of a consequent nervous breakdown.

It should not surprise us that young people are particularly susceptible to the anxiety produced by this state of affairs. The notion that adults may not ultimately have everything in hand is a common teenage conviction, but it is difficult, unless provoked by calamity, to really believe it.

What other conclusion can they reach? All around them are the klaxons of moral failure and catastrophe, yet should they turn to the journalists and analysts tasked with interpreting the world, young voters can find scarcely more evidence than they do amongst the candidates themselves that anyone has any sense of what is happening.

Instead, young people find a thousand digital and broadcast content mines engaged in endless bickering stupidity.

They find declarations that Liberalism is Working. That the real trouble is the menace of college kids who are too politically correct. They are told that the alumni of the Bush administration, just yesterday prime candidates for the Hague, must now be hugged in the name of civility. They are told through a fog of historical amnesia that Trump is an affront to our whole history, unprecedented in his proposed abuses of power, an inexplicable stain upon a nation that has actually imprisoned candidates for political dissent, blown up pharmaceutical plants, sold weapons to fund a Nicaraguan extremist organization and seen its presidents intern citizens, criminalize journalism, authorize torture, overthrow democratic governments and drop atomic bombs on cities filled with civilians. Richard Nixon tried to firebomb the Brookings Institute, burgle the Democratic National Committee and purge Jews from the executive branch. Barack Obama has deported more people than any other president in history. But Trump—we’ve never seen anything like this before.

They are told that all of this has something to do with the Russians.

Young people have watched the rise of racist nationalism amidst the ruins of neoliberalism. When they look for guidance, they find men whose résumés consist of “Ivy League” and “write a blog” being paid six-figure salaries to crack "economic anxiety" jokes and tell anyone proposing radical solutions to be more serious.

The most charitable interpretation is that these pundits too are afflicted by a sense of our catastrophe. Perhaps this is how they cope.

posted by Apocryphon at 8:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


Does the media attention on the "I will keep you in suspense" comment just contribute to fear-mongering and conspiracy theorists? I mean, I know they have to report it and that it's significant, but is it counterproductive to make it the main focus? I'm just curious sometimes what goes into these decisions.
posted by megancita at 8:50 PM on October 19, 2016


Jeez, even the usually uflappable Kellyanne Conway looks exhausted. Trumpworld is in shambles.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I still fundamentally disagree with Hillary on a few things: I don't like SCOTUS "shopping lists" aimed at specific cases. I prefer strict constructionist vs. living document selections. I don't like the violation of due process with respect to the terrorist watchlist. And I feel uneasy about the Syria no fly zone. But none of that is disqualifying to me. I am open to being persuaded and I think she can be moved also. I think she looked great up there. Calm, presidential, unafraid to express a strong opinion.
posted by xyzzy at 8:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Your husband disagrees with you" is gross as well. Like what, women have to do what their husbands say? He looked like he thought that was such a sick burn.
posted by ctmf at 8:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [89 favorites]


Can we go back to the fact Trump says he has 20 Supreme Court justices lined up?

...like, what does he think is going to happen?

...why does he need so many?
posted by Torosaurus at 8:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


How many his/her Bad Hombre/Nasty Woman Halloween costumes will there be?
posted by gatorae at 8:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


The "your husband disagrees with you" was really chilling for me as well.
posted by betsybetsy at 8:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Your husband disagrees with you" is gross as well

GROSS AS FUCK but with Trump you don't have time to get offended because you're missing the next insult already, it's nuts, he immediately went onto calling her nasty
posted by Tarumba at 8:54 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Awake and catching up. Trump did not spontaneously combust on stage, as hoped? Sad.
posted by Wordshore at 8:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


What was the 'proof' Trump was talking about, about "riots" stirred up at his rallies (in Chicago?) by DNC / Hillary? Is this a real thing, or is that O'Keefe-related fabricated garbage?
posted by Mchelly at 8:57 PM on October 19, 2016


> I think she looked great up there. Calm, presidential, unafraid to express a strong opinion.

Yeah, and her opponent came across as a fool who couldn't even commit to the peaceful transfer of power. That's the big takeaway.

She had a 1:00.4 closing statement, and he had a vision of a world on fire with a golden T emblazoned on it.

She needled him for not releasing his taxes and buying Chinese steel, and he called her "such a nasty woman".

She spoke in coherent, thoughtful, complete sentences, and he spouted word salad ("Bad hombres").

She called him out on being Putin's puppet, and he told her "your husband disagrees with you".

This was not a good debate for Donald Trump, even though I'm sure he thinks he really stuck it to her.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [9 favorites]


there is no way she bought a URL with "shit" in the title.

Her social media team is really with it. have to hand it to them - they are on top of every.single.thing. If "Delete your account" didn't prove it, everything since should've.

Interesting Newsweek editorial about young voters. We ate at a local Mexican place before the debate tonight, and talked about it a bit with our waiter, who's waited on us many times, a really nice guy around 30. He said he was planning not to vote - that he was "a huge Obama guy" but didn't want to turn out for this one. What? We did our best to talk up Hillary, not just for herself but for the best chance of setting up the platform for further progressive action in future, but I walked away feeling terrible. Like, feeling like as the near-peer GenXers we should have been doing a better job all along of debunking, battling, and showing enthusiasm and talking strategy. I am not sure I (we?) have done the best job kind of organizing and leading the charge for young voters, who are now so disaffected as they enter their crisis of idealism. We need to hold some sort of a torch.
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump's absurd claim of 4, 5, no, 6%! growth reminds me of nothing so much as 8 Minute Abs. Jeb Bush tried to claim 4% GDP growth from his tax plan in the primaries, and Trump came back with 6%, because reasons! Tax cuts! Dynamic scoring! There's no deficit if growth is high enough!

...what if someone has the brilliant idea, 7 Minute Abs?

This passes for legitimate policy ideas in the Republican party (See: the ongoing Kansas miracle). The reason he gets away with it is because Paul Ryan, scion of the intellectual wing of the Republican party, fully legitimized the magic asterisk, if it wasn't already there after 40 years of voodoo Reaganomics. When you accept the nonsensical idea of the infinite Laffer curve, there's nothing to stop a Trump from coming along and taking your innumerate ideas to their inevitable conclusion.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can we go back to the fact Trump says he has 20 Supreme Court justices lined up?

he's trying to be like FDR?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:58 PM on October 19, 2016


What was the 'proof' Trump was talking about, about "riots" stirred up at his rallies (in Chicago?) by DNC / Hillary? Is this a real thing, or is that O'Keefe-related fabricated garbage?

It's the latter, but to Trump's base, O'Keefe is right behind Reagan and Jesus in terms of credibility.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:59 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


I tell you some Bad Hombres must have made Donald Trump pay up, at some point. You know that thing he does when he doesn't pay contractors. Maybe they stuck a drumstick up his nose for not paying the band.
posted by Oyéah at 9:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


He stole from daddy's stash and replaced the portion he took with confectioner's sugar.

It was so fucking weird seeing photos of Bateman Jr give a speech a week ago (to a small audience, old Republican diehards only in attendance) to farmers in Henderson County, NC . Especially since Henderson County's apple growers rely upon casual Hispanic labour to harvest the apples, and have complained that this year they're losing out because there aren't enough migrant apple pickers (as opposed to the years when they complain there's not enough rain or too much rain or too late a freeze or too early a freeze).

Also, HendoCo apple-growers are typically devout patriotic Baptists who would never ever grow apples for hard cider. A few of the more forward-looking ones have finally planted experimental cider orchards, because the Founding Fathers believed in cider, and I literally support those farmers by the bushel every year.
posted by holgate at 9:00 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Jennifer Rubin at the Post: 10 takeaways from the third and final (hooray!) presidential debate

Agree with all but number nine number nine number nine
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Awake and catching up. Trump did not spontaneously combust on stage, as hoped? Sad.

Everything but. The snap polls are not showing it as strongly for Hillary as the ones from the first debate, but I wonder if that's a combination of anyone who is undecided at this point either lying or being the kind of mindless simp who gravitates to a strongman leader and Trump desensitization after his constant parade of bullshit. But, I admit I may be overly optimistic on this, but this read to me like the total crash and burn immolation that a lot of people were hoping for out of the first one. The "leave you in suspense", the "nasty woman", the "bad hombres", and her "that's apalling" are going to be all over the RF spectrum for the next 48-96 hours, and it's going to hurt. A lot.

He also crossed a rubicon of a sort in refusing to agree to honor the results of the election. EVERY media source I'm seeing is just salivating over that one.

This was bad. Real bad.
posted by jammer at 9:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


"No, my first name ain't 'Baby'... it's Hillary... Miss Clinton, if you're nasty."
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I mean, I can't imagine a more inappropriate person to send to rural WNC than a fucking NYC purple-shirted wastrel son, other than that he talked about how he loved to shoot deer. The fucking arsehole.
posted by holgate at 9:02 PM on October 19, 2016


If you guys aren't reading #TrumpBookReport, you're doing tonight wrong (this tweet is apparently what started it).
posted by zachlipton at 9:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]



You're a loser
and you're not what you appear to be
You're a loser
got yer ass kicked by Hillary


with apologies to Lennon-McCartney
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I never liked Nicolle Wallace that much during the W Bush years, but I think she's a touchstone on how there can be honest Republican flaks who are also willing to say that Trump is truly aberrant.
posted by holgate at 9:06 PM on October 19, 2016


CW: Mr. Trump, will you accept the result of the election, and honor the peaceful transfer of power if you lose?
DJT: I'll keep you in suspense.
HRC: Donald seems to think this election is just another one of his "reality" shows. [fake]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:07 PM on October 19, 2016


quonsar-sequel, that just shows how you and I are getting old - referencing the Beatles Loser song and not the Beck one that other MeFites would LOL over.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:09 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


#BADHARAMBE
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


YES "your husband disagrees with you" was FUCKING INFURIATING. I would venture to say that any woman who has been in business with her husband has had the experience of having someone try to go (what they perceive as) "over her head" to her husband and I guarantee felt like her head would explode when she heard Trump say that.
posted by HotToddy at 9:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [50 favorites]


The media know Trump threatening our democracy is like, dangerous or something, but they can't conceal how exciting it also is for them

It's gross
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


I cried at the end.

It's happening. A woman will be president, not just in my lifetime, but in 3 months.
posted by samthemander at 9:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [37 favorites]




Upthread I said "As a bearded dude who presents pretty masculine I'd hesitate to wear a Nasty Woman t-shirt for fear that someone might think I'm being mocking or sarcastic or ironic or whatever.

But as soon as there's a good "I'm with nasty women" design, I'm all over it."


Well, this is a weird day and age. I expressed a similar sentiment on twitter and a newly-minted account tweeted to me with a link to a decent tee. I mean I get the cynical aspect of this - it's a hot thing, throw up some design, get some money - but overall I'm just astounded that this is how the world works now.

I try not to make purchases while I've been drinking - and you'd better bet this debate has forced my hand on that issue - but if nothing better has come up by tomorrow I think that design will be my choice.
posted by komara at 9:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump seemed to be getting more and more like Alec Baldwin's impression.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


OK, last one and then I'm going to sleep. When she needled him about the Emmys being rigged, he totally said, "we should've won." He can't let a single slight go. It's pretty amazing how truly thin-skinned he is.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [66 favorites]


That's the impression I had, that Trump studied the previous debates based on the SNL skits.
posted by perhapses at 9:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


@igorvolsky: "One of the Trump sons just told Fox News that being president will be "a step down" for his father."

We may have some good news for him, then.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [41 favorites]


Corey Lewandowski is just flailing on CNN about Trump not accepting the election results. Everyone who is not Jeffrey Lord is whaling on him like guys with bars of soap in socks.
posted by marxchivist at 9:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


For some reason I'm watching CNN and those people screaming Trumpisms in the background are not doing their candidate a favor, they are so freaking annoying
posted by Tarumba at 9:17 PM on October 19, 2016


LOL Breitbart poll currently saying 59% think Hillary won the debate. If this turns out to be Hillary's tech team dispatching a couple pollbots just to fuck with Trump I will DIE of laughter.

I was just going to post about this. I've been trying to vote in this poll for the past 10mins and it won't go through. Last debate I had no problem.
posted by Jalliah at 9:17 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


If you guys aren't reading #TrumpBookReport, you're doing tonight wrong (this tweet is apparently what started it).

The original tweet is from Antonio French, possible future Mayor of St. Louis.
posted by saul wright at 9:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Substance-wise, he's always been a zero, but he was doing ok temperament-wise tonight until Hillary's "puppet" line - you could see him just lose it and he never got it back. A total and complete disaster after that.
posted by sallybrown at 9:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wow. Rachel Maddow just dug out some Bannon insanity. Paraphrasing, Bannon apparently told the Daily Beast he was not a nationalist, but a Leninist, and that, like Lenin, it is his goal to destroy the state.
posted by xyzzy at 9:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [19 favorites]


I will gather my courage and go to Breitbart to vote.
posted by Tarumba at 9:19 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


LOL Breitbart poll currently saying 59% think Hillary won the debate. If this turns out to be Hillary's tech team dispatching a couple pollbots just to fuck with Trump I will DIE of laughter.

Wow, the alt-righters can't even freep their own polls. Low-energy. Sad!
posted by tonycpsu at 9:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


What was the 'proof' Trump was talking about, about "riots" stirred up at his rallies (in Chicago?) by DNC / Hillary? Is this a real thing, or is that O'Keefe-related fabricated garbage?

Well, maybe and yes. He probably meant this thing about Scott Foval, here's the video in question. The guy says a bunch of impolitic stuff that you would kind of expect from a politcal blowhard seeking to inflate his own importance, but I do think there is legit news in there; he spends a good deal of time talking about how coordination between various super-PACs and the DNC happens, and also talks about purposely inciting people at Trump rallies to get them to engage in violence. Of course, it's all quite selectively edited and surrounded by talking points.
posted by whir at 9:20 PM on October 19, 2016


This is not something I thought I'd ever say, but I suddenly have a lot of respect for the practical professionalism, if nothing else, of most of the folks on the CNN panel right now. With what sounds like a mob of idiots behind them chanting Trump's greatest hits album they're doing a damn good job of keeping their wits and focusing on what they're trying to say.

(Even if a good chunk of it is bullshit.)
posted by jammer at 9:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dr. Jennifer Gunter: There is no such thing as a ninth month abortion - I'm a doctor who trained in late term abortions #debate2016
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]


I will gather my courage and go to Breitbart to vote.

Curious if it works for you. If it doesn't it may be being botted which is hilarious.
posted by Jalliah at 9:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


This Nasty Woman Inktober sketch is EVERYTHING.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 9:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


Reminder: This was trump on election night in 2012, including "We can't let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Our naiton is totally divided!"

This is terrifying.
posted by zachlipton at 9:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


The original tweet is from Antonio French, possible future Mayor of St. Louis.

He is a great guy. I've been following him since Ferguson and am hoping so hard he wins (election isn't til April).
posted by sallybrown at 9:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


i hope donald trump loses the election
posted by danb at 9:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]


I gather that the whole binder of potential SCOTUS nominees thing has to do with trying to keep the right wing in his camp. A lot of people have basically said that this is the only reason to vote for him, and they seem just short of terrified that he's going to pick someone who isn't going to be their anti-abortion anti-gay pro-gun champion. The only nominees they trust are the ones in that binder. He has to keep reassuring them that he's going to stay on script, just that once, that ONE TIME, to keep their votes. Why they believe he will be faithful on this when he's been faithful on nothing else, ever, I don't know.
posted by Sequence at 9:24 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you're still up (go to bed!), I found this take by Josh Marshall ("Strongman in Waiting") particularly interesting:

[Trump's repeated refusal to accept the result of a democratic election] is what mattered in this debate. I suspect it will remain a dominant theme throughout the remaining three weeks of the campaign. And I'm confident this debate and that answer will be discussed, likely taught, for decades into the future.

A convincing argument for why this is so far beyond the pale, and why Trump couldn't see that.

"I'll keep you in suspense, okay." That kind of 'suspense' is precisely what makes democratic polities collapse.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


That #TrumpBookReport thread is fucking fantastic. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm an English teacher, so I am a total sucker for literary tweeting.
posted by guster4lovers at 9:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't know if I'm over sensitive but I hated that Trump said babies were getting RIPPED out of women because

1. it made me feel like Alien
2. It felt kind of horrible hearing him talking about basically destroying a woman's body
3. He obviously showed no compassion for women whose bodies are being destroyed by these nonexistent procedures
posted by Tarumba at 9:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [41 favorites]


Trump is busily tweeting online polls from Drudge and the Washington Times. Sad!

Oh, ha: In the Washington Times one, 5% say Gary Johnson won. 1% say Chris Matthews.
posted by mochapickle at 9:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I hope someone photoshops pictures of Trump branded buildings, substituting 'Loser' for 'Trump'.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, ha: In the Washington Times one, 5% say Gary Johnson won. 1% say Chris Matthews.

The poor Moonie Times wasn't important enough for Clinton's techies to bother creating a freeping script for.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Miss Clinton, if you're nasty."

Already a shirt!*
:)

*(maybe, possibly, should be, someone make this so I can buy it)
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


In the inevitable movie version of this election, Christian Bale should play Mike Pence.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


So... I want every Republican on the spot RIGHT NOW to respond to that "Keep you in suspense" line.

"So you still support your party's candidate?"

"Yes."

"The candidate says he may not accept the results of the election. Presuming that he means that and it wasn't just talk, and he plans on fomenting some sort of revolution where he tries to lead the country without winning an election, will you support him then?"

"umm..."

"Are you worried about facing the death penalty for committing treason at some point?"

[fake]
posted by mmoncur at 9:31 PM on October 19, 2016 [24 favorites]


I am not sure I (we?) have done the best job kind of organizing and leading the charge for young voters, who are now so disaffected as they enter their crisis of idealism. We need to hold some sort of a torch.

Perhaps that torch could be held to the feet of the Clinton administration, once it's in office, to actually fulfill the promises it has made and do the barest minimum to halt the continuous Democratic march to the center that has gone on for so long.

It won't, and shouldn't, be kumbaya once Clinton is elected. That is when the true fight begins.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]


I will gather my courage and go to Breitbart to vote.

Curious if it works for you. If it doesn't it may be being botted which is hilarious.


It works for me. (Yes I voted Clinton.)

More interestingly, the poll on Breitbart is just an embedded version of this Polldaddy poll. Not only that, said poll is trivially gameable: if you have more than one browser installed on your system (e.g. both Chrome and Firefox), vote with the first, then open up that link in the second browser and vote again! Fun for the whole family! (You can automate this technique to perform said "botting.")

That is all.
posted by iffthen at 9:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


@OfficialJLD: The Emmys are NOT rigged.

When truth is stranger than fiction: TV writers weigh in on the presidential campaign
Honestly, it makes everything harder. I couldn't be happier that [Selina Meyer] is out of the White House on our show and we're moving on to the next phase of her career.

I've never said this before. We had a scene where a minor character gets picked up on a DUI and he's being a little mouthy to a female police officer and we sort of had a run using [the P-word]. It was pretty funny and they basically threw it in the garbage. [Trump] is ruining comedy.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't know if I'm over sensitive but I hated that Trump said babies were getting RIPPED out of women...
This phrasing is absolutely intentional and is common in anti-abortion literature. It is part of their "shock tactics"

Personally I don't think it's overly sensitive of you to hate it. It is propaganda and it is totally gross, manipulative, and horrible. (IMO anyways)
posted by Golem XIV at 9:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


"your husband disagrees with you"
'You have an unhealthy obsession with other people's spouses, Mr. Trump.'
posted by jamjam at 9:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [39 favorites]


Trump looks back at his iPhone

FACT CHECK: Trump uses an Android phone.

VERDICT: False.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hm MSNBC talking about Trump TV and possibly a Ukip style new party branching off Republicans
posted by Tarumba at 9:37 PM on October 19, 2016


Trump citing an Alex Jones conspiracy theory was priceless. Trump is truly unhinged.
posted by mlis at 9:37 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


The number one problem in the minds of many of us is climate change. Three debates and it hasn't been addressed once (except for one debate in which Trump belittled Clinton for being concerned about it, as I recall). This three-ring (sorry, three-debate) circus has elided so many issues of concern to us voters--public schools, mass incarceration/drug war, global empire, nuclear proliferation, food scarcity, homelessness, etc. etc.--it leaves me speechless. Remind me: why is this democracy of ours, this democracy we want to export everywhere by force of arms, so precious and wonderful?
posted by kozad at 9:38 PM on October 19, 2016 [21 favorites]


So I spent my day subbing for a high school biology teacher. Lots of movies 'cause half the class was out for the PSAT (hence my sub job). One of the things I showed was the VICE News special on the state of the fight against HIV, and they made a big point of explaining the strides made by the Bush Administration in sub-Saharan Africa because of the programs Dubya funded.

It felt good to see, because as fucking awful as Dubya was, even he did some real, incredible good in the world. It was a reminder that even a terrible presidency can do great things.

...and then I got to see the Trump shitshow tonight and the preview of the kind of president he wants to be. Talk about whiplash.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


Metafilter: No YOU'RE the puppet! No, you're the puppet!
posted by Naberius at 9:39 PM on October 19, 2016


I have to admit, I was working on a painting and had to redo a portion because I laughed and spit everywhere when Trump said, "You're a puppet!"
posted by Room 641-A at 9:39 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


If Saturday Night Live does the debate with Kate as Hillary and an actual puppet as Trump (voiced by Alec Baldwin) I will be very very happy. "YOU'RE the puppet!"
posted by mmoncur at 9:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


That's genius, mmoncur. Actually, I'd like it best if SNL switches to puppet-Trump as a cutaway for that one moment.
posted by yasaman at 9:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have to say that I'm disappointed I'm going to let something as insignificant as my own wedding prevent me from watching SNL this Saturday. I'm sure the cold open is going to be sublime.
posted by komara at 9:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


Trump is busily tweeting online polls from Drudge and the Washington Times. Sad!

Oh, BTW: the Washington Times poll is gameable using the technique I described above, and the Drudge Report poll is an embedded version of this other Polldaddy poll, also gameable with the same technique.
posted by iffthen at 9:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tingle captured one of my more WTF moments. "dons trump's void rage GROWS as he describes how luxurious his hotel is. the audience appears unimpressed." (Click through for animated gif.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump's outright rejection of the intelligence community is mind-boggling.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


Is he still getting security briefings? How tense must those be now that he's straight up ignored and/or lied about them?
posted by yasaman at 9:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Breitbart poll

Donald Trump 39.21% (47,393 votes)


Hillary Clinton 60.79% (73,470 votes)


hehehehe
posted by Tarumba at 9:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [16 favorites]


It felt good to see, because as fucking awful as Dubya was, even he did some real, incredible good in the world. It was a reminder that even a terrible presidency can do great things.

He was also great at highlighting the abuses of the North Korean regime

(posting too much, *disappears for now*)

posted by iffthen at 9:47 PM on October 19, 2016


I tried liveblogging over chez moi.

Somewhere in there: "Donald, buddy, if the Underpants Gnomes' business plan is more detailed than yours that's a problem."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


My main points of interest tonight.

1) Forceful defense of abortion rights, including the need for late-term abortions, from Clinton

2) HRC saying Trump choked, then the Putin's puppet line.

3) Which then goaded Trump into improvising a love monologue to Putin, which will surely be transformed into a timely attack ad by Clinton's video team by tomorrow.

4) Pleasant surprise climate change was mentioned at all, even though it was a bit of a throwaway.

5) Love the sci-fi bureaucrat look on HRC..
posted by palindromic at 9:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [10 favorites]


http://nastywomengetshitdone.com/


/rolls around dying of laughter

(spoiler: resolves to https://www.hillaryclinton.com/)
posted by rtha at 9:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Breitbart poll
Donald Trump 39.21% (47,393 votes)
Hillary Clinton 60.79% (73,470 votes)
hehehehe


See? RIGGED.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:49 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


5) Love the sci-fi bureaucrat look on HRC..

That was no bureaucrat, that was a Grammaton Cleric!
posted by Justinian at 9:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


Can anyone point me to a brief overview of the latest O'Keefe videos that doesn't involve watching the videos?
posted by skewed at 9:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is he still getting security briefings? How tense must those be now that he's straight up ignored and/or lied about them?

I...can't understand how he's not an active security threat to his own country and hasn't been arrested already what with his open invite to Russian hackers and all. I don't get it. Why hasn't this happened? Honest question, canuck here...
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 9:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


OK, the MSNBC chyron right now, as they eagerly await the opportunity to talk to Hillary on her plane: "BREAKING NEWS: CLINTON BOARDS PLANE AFTER DEBATE".

That I find this abso-fucking-lutely hilarious is probably a good indicator that I need to put down the Manhattans, smoke a bowl, and go to bed.

SHE'S BOARDING A PLANE!
posted by jammer at 9:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [22 favorites]


Hillary on the plane back to NYC, w/ Andrea Mitchell and other press:

"We try and to have free and fair elections, which we do."

I understand that she has to say that, and I love that she uses that terminology, because it's a Secretary of State thing to say, but honestly, the US doesn't have free and fair elections by the standards that the OECD or the Carter Center apply when monitoring countries that move towards democracy. The fucked-up state- and county-implemented system is grandfathered in. And as I say again and again, the fairest election systems in the US are in states where the African-American vote can have no decisive effect on the outcome, and states where that's not the case, the election system is typically neither free nor fair.
posted by holgate at 10:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


I...can't understand how he's not an active security threat to his own country and hasn't been arrested already what with his open invite to Russian hackers and all. I don't get it. Why hasn't this happened? Honest question, canuck here...

Because arresting a presidential candidate would be unprecedented and horrible and Obama rightly won't open that can of worms?

It's also not remotely clear to me that a maybe-a-joke public statement is illegal. In many cases speech about criminal acts needs to be very specific to be clearly illegal. ("I hope the corrupt government is overthrown" is legal. "I want everyone to grab a gun and meet me at the corner shop" is not.)
posted by mark k at 10:01 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can anyone point me to a brief overview of the latest O'Keefe videos that doesn't involve watching the videos?

This Washington Post story isn't awful.
posted by zachlipton at 10:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wordshore: Trump did not spontaneously combust on stage, as hoped? Sad.

Depends on your definition of "spontaneously combust."
By mine, yes. Yes he did.

🎶Never gon' be president now
🎵(Never gon' be president now)
One less thing to worry about...🎧
posted by Superplin at 10:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


She says she's going to have to do some soul searching.

If you're still undecided at this point I suspect you may not have a soul to find.


Every time I hear something like this, I think to the conversation I overheard between a white woman and a black woman in which the white woman was pressuring the black woman to vote Trump. (This was during the primaries.) The black woman finally said "I'm gonna have to pray on it." It was pretty clear to me that this was a polite dismissal, a southern woman saying to another southern woman "Butt the fuck out."

So I hear "I'm going to have to do some soul searching" as "I'm too polite to say what I really think." And or "I HAVE made up my mind, but my opinion contradicts the opinion I'm supposed to have according to my peers/religion/family."
posted by threeturtles at 10:03 PM on October 19, 2016 [17 favorites]


For anyone wanting a quick comparison of this debate vs the others, here are the YouGov snap polls using comparable methodologies for all three:

1: 57-30
2: 47-42
3: 49-39

So by that metric, at least, she actually did a bit better in this last one than in the second.
posted by chortly at 10:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought Trump looked defeated at the end. Standing behind the podium after the debate was over looked like less of a choice and more like exhaustion. He's done and he knows it. (Turns around three times and spits).
posted by firstdrop at 10:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [11 favorites]


Spew Spewitt, former Nixon presidential librarian, talking about rigged elections on MSNBC. Oh, fuck off, Tricky Dickster.
posted by holgate at 10:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


I...can't understand how he's not an active security threat to his own country and hasn't been arrested already what with his open invite to Russian hackers and all. I don't get it. Why hasn't this happened? Honest question, canuck here...

In a way, I think it is because of the weird buffer zone we have around presidential elections here. You can say and do things that in the course of normal discourse would be beyond the pale and it's, if not accepted, then at least given an indulgence. It's BECAUSE, some would say, of the importance above all in a democracy for the republic to be larger than any individual. Democracy is, in a way, a shared delusion, and it's important that we keep that delusion through weird rituals such as (as MSNBC noted earlier) that of an outgoing president leaving a note of advice and well wishes to his successor, regardless of party. It's also why we don't (as much as some of us would wish otherwise) usually persecute the outgoing administration for things that may have happened under their watch.

These are conventions that the GOP have discarded and taken massive advantage of in the past decade or so -- look at how they've spent the past 8 years actively refusing to cooperate with the resident administration.

And that is why what Trump is doing is so outrageous. He is taking those conventions, those standards that keep our often fractious, vituperous form of government from completely disintegrating, and shitting all over them. He wants to persecute his political opponents, he's all but explicitly telegraphing his desire to rule as a third world dictator, he's actively undermining the belief in this shared delusion around our electoral process. And I think, in a way, it's hard for our institutions to cope with that, and to say "this... THIS is too far, and it is utter bullshit".

And I can assure you with some certainty that he will never face any prosecution for anything that has happened in his campaign. My primary hope is that the audaciousness of his approach, and the way he is salting he earth behind him, will be enough to encourage folks to tear down the non-political house of cards around him and leave him humiliated, broken, and acutely aware of his own disgrace in his sunset years.
posted by jammer at 10:07 PM on October 19, 2016 [31 favorites]


The fucked-up state- and county-implemented system is grandfathered in.

I'm with you on this philosophically, but the paradox of this is that the very thing that makes the election system so messy is what makes it harder to rig. Every county having its own machines, its own procedures, its own counts... That's virtually impossible to compromise except at the margins. Of course it opens up other attack vectors (mass disenfranchisement, etc.) but those are also hard to implement on a large scale because you have to do it at so many different levels.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [13 favorites]


I love that time when people start getting silly usually after 1 am, now there's a guy dancing "Egyptian" style in the background on MSNBC.
posted by Tarumba at 10:09 PM on October 19, 2016


🎶Never gon' be president now
🎵(Never gon' be president now)
One less thing to worry about...🎧


*going outside*
*turning around three times*
*cursing*
*spitting*
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [30 favorites]


Pleasantly surprising lack of false-equivalence from the AP: LAS VEGAS (AP) -- Threatening to upend a fundamental pillar of American democracy, Donald Trump refused to say Wednesday night that he will accept the results of next month's election if he loses to Hillary Clinton. The Democratic nominee declared Trump's resistance "horrifying."
posted by joedan at 10:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Like, feeling like as the near-peer GenXers we should have been doing a better job all along of debunking, battling, and showing enthusiasm and talking strategy.

I don't think it's a lack of debunking or enthusiasm. I think it's just the other side is engaging in destructive scorched earth tactics that work to inject doubt and foment mistrust to the point where people are too disgusted and/or too afraid to participate.

I mean, the Great Depression was arguably a worse time than now, and yet there were still elections with two candidates that weren't fascists and accepted the results.
posted by FJT at 10:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


RelevantSaturday Morning Breakfast Cereal: An Important Distinction:
Patriotism:
I'm gonna work on my house because it's the best house.

Nationalism:

MY HOUSE IS THE BEST HOUSE BECAUSE IT'S MY HOUSE!
posted by palindromic at 10:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [47 favorites]


I was going to make my previous comment my last, but as I went to turn my TV off, Joy Reid was on MSNBC not taking one single microgram of shit from Hugh Hewitt's James O'Keefe shit. It's glorious, and I hope someone has video of it tomorrow.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:14 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


And I think, in a way, it's hard for our institutions to cope with that, and to say "this... THIS is too far, and it is utter bullshit".

And I can assure you with some certainty that he will never face any prosecution for anything that has happened in his campaign. My primary hope is that the audaciousness of his approach, and the way he is salting he earth behind him, will be enough to encourage folks to tear down the non-political house of cards around him and leave him humiliated, broken, and acutely aware of his own disgrace in his sunset years.


Not while this Republican party exists. Ryan and McConnell are what passes for leadership, and they're fully on board with every word out of Trump's mouth, including his refusal to acknowledge the fundamental legitimacy of our democratic system. Not to mention the 38-40% of the voters that just don't give a fuck as long as it's their fascist dictator in power and sticking it to liberals. No, this Republican party is lost. The only way to hold our institutions together is to keep defeating it until it dies and something else takes its place. Relying on them to maintain order in their own ranks is tempting disaster.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


Le Tigre: I'm With Her (video):
Dance-punk icons Le Tigre teased a special one-off reunion track last month. Now that track is here, and it’s very timely: a song in support of Hillary Clinton called “I’m With Her.” It hits with all the vigor and rhetoric of a campaign rally, including chants such as “Trump has got to go!” and “Who do we want? We want HRC!” Kathleen Hanna’s unmistakable voice rattles off Clinton’s qualifications and adds some anti-Trump critique for good measure.
posted by palindromic at 10:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Thanks for the explanation, jammer. I hope so too, yes indeed. I hope he falls into obscurity after his defeat. What he has said and done is beyond the pale. He should have his own page in the DSM-5 as a teaching example.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 10:18 PM on October 19, 2016




FWIW: I have rapidly come to agree with people who are saying the Wikileaks stuff shouldn't even be dignified with a response. That stuff was stolen, full stop, and if it had been physically taken as a file in a burglary people would recognize it for the crime it is. It's a no-brainer for reporters to bring it up, but their no-brainer isn't any less shitty. Shockingly, even Marco Rubio seems to get this.

It's all nothingburgers anyway, but even so. I'm at a point of losing respect for any journalist (or candidate) who brings it up.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


I need to look up now whether "swatches" for "swathes", re: the vastness of land Trump's talking about Russia taking over, is a common attested usage or just a Trump innovation.

Quick update on my query here: in a far more normal and dull universe where this was actually one of the interesting moments in a presidential debate, a Trump surrogate could make the argument that he was not in fact misspeaking here but instead expressing his deep command of the English language, given the OED's 16th century citation of a dialectal variant of swatch as a land-referencing "swathe" for "A row (of corn or grass) cut", as in:
1577 T. Tusser Fiue Hundreth Points Good Husbandry (new ed.) f. 55, One spreadeth those bands, so in order to ly, as barley (in swatches,) [1573 swathes] may fil it thereby.
So, uh, you know. That.
posted by cortex at 10:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [29 favorites]


Every county having its own machines, its own procedures, its own counts... That's virtually impossible to compromise except at the margins

That's honestly a rationalisation of a shitty system, which makes it one of those bugs-not-a-feature that you dare not debug because any changes will bring down the shitty system.

It was compromised at the margins in Palm Beach County, FL in November 2000. This is undeniable, but it was appropriate for Gore to concede because he acknowledged the institutional validity of a shitty system.

I will happily take a single system administered primarily at the highest level of government over the fragmented heterogeneous shit that the US serves up and pretends to be electoral democracy. I do not accept that there are any inherent advantages to the status quo.
posted by holgate at 10:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Four more years of Obama. That's what you get when you get her.

Is the Clinton team going to send Trump a cheque for all campaign copy he's written and performed for them? Say .5 cents a slogan or quote? Might add up to a few dollars.

"Bad Hombre and the Nasty Women" is the name of my next band.
posted by jferg at 10:04 PM on 10/19

More like a couple's Halloween costume.


Or a Lars Von Trier film.

So Trump's big plan after he loses the election is to become a YouTube vlogger?

Rob Ford attempted something similar. If I recall correctly, it did not go well but I don't believe he had the audience in Canada that Trump has in the States.

Jr Cheeto is talking about teaching poor children about the dignity of work on MSNBC.

Would this be one of those dignity of work "lessons" that presupposes poor people are poor because they're lazy and undignified while at the same time failing to argue that such dignity of work should be recognized and supported by significantly appropriate compensation?
posted by juiceCake at 10:23 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]






I don't have time to read the whole thread -- does anyone know who the annoying people are who are shouting behind the Chris Matthews panel on MSNBC?

I'm sure I probably support their right to say anything they like, but I really wish I could hear what's being said by the panel.
posted by jrochest at 10:27 PM on October 19, 2016


2866 new comments.

rough.
posted by lkc at 10:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


Dear Metafilter:

I have to confess that I didn't eat tacos tonight. I ordered enchiladas instead. But we went to the closest place, and that's the place with the good enchiladas, not one of the places with the good tacos.
posted by threeturtles at 10:34 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


“I will tell you at the time. I will keep you in suspense, okay?”

I guess there's a kind reading of this where he's only saying this so that he'll have the largest possible audience for his concession speech, and then he'll say

"I accept the results. Period. See, I just saved democracy. Now let me tell you about this new hotel! Look at the brickwork there!"
posted by mmoncur at 10:36 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]




Following up on my earlier comment... I may be wrong about this, but it's something I've wondered about, based upon my own observations and discussions with folks from all sides: I think about how the US doesn't have the distinction between head of government and head of state that friendly constitutional monarchies might. And I wonder if some of the amazement and confused fascination that folks in even friendly countries have about our presidential elections might not be because they don't quite grok it the way Americans do.

I know as a Canadian it's a lot farther removed from you than it would be for a Briton, but remember that we are basically electing a new PM and a new monarch every four years. I have no idea if I'm right or not, but I wonder if that gives our elections a bit more... vigor... than they might otherwise have.
posted by jammer at 10:43 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]



This debate has made me feel so sick. Why did I do it? Why did I eat just one more taco, drink just one more baileys and hot chocolate, a whole bag of cheese popcorn and more then one too many cupcakes.
I feel like a kid who has just indulged too much at the junk food table and am lying here feeling all gross and bloated.
posted by Jalliah at 10:44 PM on October 19, 2016 [12 favorites]


And boom, Hill's campaign has already built an ad on Hillary's answer on what she's been doing the past 30 years. And it was posted an hour ago(!).

(Do a Nasty Woman one next!)
posted by mochapickle at 10:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]




Spew Spewitt, former Nixon presidential librarian, talking about rigged elections on MSNBC. Oh, fuck off, Tricky Dickster.

Ehhhhhh....I feel like there's definitely been election tampering in the past, people /trying/ to fix the election, but you just can't really do it effectively these days and in the computer age so that's not a real risk.
posted by corb at 10:53 PM on October 19, 2016


Wait, I'm not too familiar with Nixon. Were there really people in his orbit named "Spiro Agnew" and "Spew Spewitt"?

I thought 2016 was the ridiculously fictional election year.
posted by mmoncur at 10:57 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]


Spiro Agnew was Nixon's veep.
posted by xyzzy at 10:59 PM on October 19, 2016


Spiro Agnew was Nixon's veep.

and a good man he was.
posted by philip-random at 11:02 PM on October 19, 2016


Were there really people in his orbit named "Spiro Agnew" and "Spew Spewitt"?

Wait till you hear about Bebe Rebozo
posted by neroli at 11:04 PM on October 19, 2016 [36 favorites]


Any citations for Trump's claim that Obama has deported "millions and millions" of people?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:04 PM on October 19, 2016


Any citations for Trump's claim that Obama has deported "millions and millions" of people?

True. See also this debate fact check.
posted by zachlipton at 11:07 PM on October 19, 2016


Anderson Cooper: "Technically, you can't polish ANY turd."

Mythbusters proves you can polish a turd.


Also... WHEW *shoulder wriggle* That was AMAZING; she nailed it. She really, really nailed it.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:08 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Spiro Agnew was Nixon's veep.

I thought he worked at MAD magazine?
posted by stet at 11:11 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


Obama has indeed deported more people than other Presidents, up 25% from Bush at 2.5 million. His executive action directed ICE to focus on criminals. He is also hardline on solo child immigration in order to discourage parents from sending their kids off with sketchy characters.
posted by xyzzy at 11:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]


I feel like there might be a sliding curve over the course of the debates between how many people watch them and form some opinions first-hand and how many people form opinions by way of media coverage, especially amoung Trump leaning or undecided voters.

A lot of my family is the sort of voter who was pretty put off by Trump, but were possible to bring on-board if he had had a good performance in the first debate, which they watched to see if he could put her down (to use rough terms) to their liking, and his particularly unhinged approach put them off personally. Fewer of them watched or followed the second debate, but the tapes scandal and it's mentioning was the story of the day anyway, and it put them off more.

I don't know that any of them watched this debate, but I really doubt it. It's all up to what is in the papers tomorrow, and I hope that it's wall to wall "UnAmerican, Threat to our Democracy" because right now they need very public demonstrations that there are a lot of people against Trump. They need a drumbeat of "Threat to the nation" to overwhelm whatever charges of corruption and traitor-hood the Trump camp will be slinging with wild abandon in the coming weeks. Demotivation isn't just a political tactic right now, it's what I'm praying will help save a few lives. The narrative has to be "Violent objection to the democratic process in UnAmerican" in most people's minds for the reaction to the assured acts of violence that will be committed to be the proper one, one of revulsion.
posted by neonrev at 11:12 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Maybe you're thinking of the Mrs. Agnew's Diary column in the National Lampoon?
posted by morspin at 11:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fair enough, but "millions and millions" to me implies a lot more than 2.5 million.

And just when did Russia take over the entire Middle East?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:14 PM on October 19, 2016


Holy shit... I realized I am a Republican nightmare... I am, in fact, an abortion supporting (sorta) LGBT+ rights supporting, illegally registered voter! (I should get that fixed)
posted by Jacen at 11:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


FWIW: I have rapidly come to agree with people who are saying the Wikileaks stuff shouldn't even be dignified with a response. That stuff was stolen, full stop, and if it had been physically taken as a file in a burglary people would recognize it for the crime it is.

Do you feel the same way about Trump's tax returns should someone leak (all of) them?
posted by Justinian at 11:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


I thought 2016 was the ridiculously fictional election year.

You didn't think it was a bit heavy-handed when the writers had one of Trump's kids killing the Republicans' totem animal?
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:16 PM on October 19, 2016 [69 favorites]


Oh, I missed this before and am now savoring the deliciousness:

DJT: "Bernie Sanders says you have bad judgement."
HRC: "You should ask Bernie Sanders who he's supporting for President."
[real]
posted by mochapickle at 11:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [47 favorites]


And when the eagle, symbol of America, rejected Trump in his office?

THE OMENS ARE CLEAR.
posted by yasaman at 11:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


I feel like there's definitely been election tampering in the past, people /trying/ to fix the election, but you just can't really do it effectively these days and in the computer age so that's not a real risk.

There are phases to it, all mapped to US history.

County-based vital records, which only became significant in WW2 when there was a massive population movement and citizens without birth certificates couldn't get defense industry jobs and complained about it.

Civic identity in the US changed so much because of WW2.

Then you have Jim Crow which, post-VRA established the tradition that African-Americans queue up for hours to vote in person, because it's as near to the bare metal that you can get.

In some ways, the computer age actually exacerbates things because people's names are really fluid things, and vital records systems (state consolidated, but county-implemented) are a mess. Post 1960 or thereabouts, you don't have to worry that your birth certificate will be lost forever if the county courthouse was burnt down, but you did have to wonder that the county records were right, that the transcription into the state database was right, that it accommodated how names change. For instance: Bill Clinton was born William Jefferson Blyth III in 1946, took his stepfather's last name in 1950, but only formally changed his last name as a teenager in 1961.

I concur that city and county elections have been rigged on a regular basis, and I don't doubt that the Daley machine had its say in Illinois in 1960. But there's such a massive technological disparity here: the US contains white people born in the mountains or the remote plains or the desert in the 1930s whose only birth record is an entry in the family Bible, or black people born at home in southern cities in the 1940s with a midwife present who were never issued birth certificates because the issuance was only guaranteed to white people born in segregated hospitals, and then you have Americans born today who have a digital record from the moment they take their first breath.

Computer thinking -- the idea that individuals are like inventory in a database -- misses so much about the messiness of personal identity, especially in the US where the county remains the official register of vital records.

Hewitt was complaining about elections in Washington and Minnesota, and dear god, they're among the states which operate under the best and most transparent election laws in the US because they have that Scando heritage and not many black people. If you want to pick an election you might not trust, then look at county sheriff ballots in rural Alabama where one of the candidates is the cousin of the county seat's mayor.
posted by holgate at 11:18 PM on October 19, 2016 [50 favorites]


Patriotism:
I'm gonna work on my house because it's the best house.

Nationalism:
MY HOUSE IS THE BEST HOUSE BECAUSE IT'S MY HOUSE!


Those are both kind of equally fucked up to be perfectly honest. I don't see how "my country is the best country" isn't just as nationalistic. This is what's frankly weird and creepy about US-style "patriotism"; the absolute religious conviction that America is the most awesome country in the history of countries because Freedom! which seems to be accepted as an article of faith by far too many people who should really know better on both sides of the political divide.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [27 favorites]


I think you're missing the point of that patriotism/nationalism comparison.
posted by palomar at 11:22 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wait till you hear about Bebe Rebozo

Lazlo Toth has some tales to tell!
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 11:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [8 favorites]


Do you feel the same way about Trump's tax returns should someone leak (all of) them?

Maybe, I think? I dunno. My feelings on the Wikileaks stuff (not really articulated in my first comment) are a mix of disdain for how it was acquired -- again, illegally -- and what's in there. I wouldn't feel the same way about, say, the Pentagon Papers. That stuff revealed info that was of genuine interest to the general public. If the Wikileaks stuff out of the Clinton campaign showed actual criminal malfeasance or something, maybe it would matter more, I guess? But at this point, we're not talking about the Pentagon Papers here. Podesta's emails aren't a matter of whistleblowing. We're just talking about an invasion of privacy for the sake of spite.

So as far as Trump's tax returns: those returns could expose flat-out lies that make a critical difference in how he presents himself as a candidate. That feels like it would be of interest to the public. Conversely, even if his returns showed he really does have the wealth he claims to have & it's not all shady shenanigans, that, too, would be of public interest because it would dispel a persistent claim that he's lying. The problem, of course, is that even if the NYT or WaPo got hold of Trump's tax returns and they saw it was all fairly normal stuff, not exposing any lies at all, they'd doubtlessly publish anyway just for the sake of grandstanding.

At that point, I feel like it's a matter of how it's handled and not just an indiscriminate throwing of his papers to the wind (or online).
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:26 PM on October 19, 2016 [15 favorites]


I am also against using the Wikileaks stuff because it is not whistleblowing in the sense that it has been vetted by professionals to be in the public interest. Who cares if Podesta called Bernie a buffoon or whatever? Why is it my business as an American voter that Podesta has thoughts about Catholicism? If actual corruption or crime is happening, by all means, make a case using curated information.
posted by xyzzy at 11:28 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]


How many his/her Bad Hombre/Nasty Woman Halloween costumes will there be?

I hope not very many. I can only imagine how racist and sexist they would be. Like, only Latinos are allowed to dress up as Bad Hombres and I really can't imagine how to make a non-offensive Nasty Woman costume, unless you just do it as HRC cosplay.
posted by threeturtles at 11:29 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Were there really people in his orbit named "Spiro Agnew" and "Spew Spewitt"?

Spew Spewitt = Hugh Hewitt, a self-identified serious conservative intellectual and debate moderator and radio host and CNN paid pundit. Hence the spewing.

Nixon was not allowed a typical presidential library for many years because he was a crook. Instead, the federal government (NARA) retained control over his presidential records. When they finally ceded the bulk of that control to the Nixon Presidential Library in Yorba Linda in 1990, the library's original director Hugh Hewitt (a ghostwriter for post-presidential Nixon, not unlike Monica "yay walls" Crowley in the 90s) issued an edict that banned "unfriendly" researchers access to the Nixon papers. This was quickly overturned, but it's important to file Hewitt under the category "post-Nixon-presidency Nixon revisionist."
posted by holgate at 11:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [23 favorites]


Do you feel the same way about Trump's tax returns should someone leak (all of) them?

That's a fair question. I do think there's a distinction to be made between tax returns, which Presidential candidates have traditionally released in campaigns stretching back decades, and the private communications of a political campaign, which have never been open to public scrutiny. And historical precedent rather frowns on stealing information from a rival campaign's office.

Beyond that, I think there's a rather imperfect distinction between whistleblowing and outright theft. If someone is legitimately in possession of a document they believe the American people ought to see, they weigh the advantages of disclosure against the interests of privacy, and then work with reputable journalists to get that information out with appropriate context and protections, then yeah, there's a good argument to be made. The Pentagon Papers and the Snowden docs fall into this category. In contrast, if someone breaks into an office, grabs someone's correspondence, and posts it all online for the purpose of influencing an election (or for the lols) with no regard to balancing disclosure vs privacy or the relevance of the material to the American people, then that's really just theft. If the Trump campaign had the emails and used them for internal purposes, without them being posted on Wikileaks, we wouldn't be having this discussion: we'd just be appalled they stole their opponent's communications.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs because I like one side more than the other, but I'd like to think I would feel differently about the situation if it were a DNC or Clinton staffer who sent, say, a handful of particular emails to the press because they felt they were exposing significant wrongdoing.
posted by zachlipton at 11:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


(And truthfully, the more I look into the history of vital records in the US, the more I admire the genealogical work of the LDS church, even if the doctrinal motivation is to baptise the long-dead.)
posted by holgate at 11:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


WaPo: The final Trump-Clinton debate transcript, annotated

(Appears to be outside the paywall.)
posted by mochapickle at 11:40 PM on October 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


On the subject of the Washington Post, here's their front page headline for Thursday: "Trump won’t vow to honor results."
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:45 PM on October 19, 2016


I think that releasing the first page of one's 1040s going back as long as you've been a public figure has become a bare minimum standard for seeking presidential office. I don't want them leaked -- I'm a Marla Truther on that 1995 return -- but refusing to do so should be highlighted and treated as disqualifying.
posted by holgate at 11:45 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]


So weird that the press narrative about Trump in the past few weeks has been summarizable as, "Trump is the boy you don't want your kids to play with." He's a bullying, potty-mouthed sore loser who's used to getting anything he wants.
posted by the marble index at 11:53 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]


Do you feel the same way about Trump's tax returns should someone leak (all of) them?

2 key differences.

1) verification. A tax return can be easily verified or declared to be doctored. Thousandsd and thousands of emails, most of which are real and some might be doctored? There is no way for the Clinton campaign to verify or refute them, because of the size of the data dump.

2) reciprocity. Hillary has already released 40 years of tax returns, so at worst, a release of (accurate) returns puts them on even footing.

Trump, on the other hands, has had no campaign emails released, and I think it's a very safe bet that we would find much jucier dirt (metaphor?) if he had an equivalent number released, or any at all. Just imagine what Bannon, Conway, New Gingrich, Katrina Pierson and the creepy kids are sending to each other.
posted by msalt at 11:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [14 favorites]


NYT: What We Saw in the Final Debate : How Donald Trump vs. Hillary Clinton looked to Times Opinion writers — before, during and after their last meeting in Las Vegas.

Stack of writers, plenty reading, much quotable. My pick, from Emily Bazelon's piece :
I’ll confess I felt a small thrill: More than at any big moment since the convention, Mrs. Clinton owned her feminism. She sounded like the first woman running for president, defending other women — our autonomy and our control of our own bodies.
posted by valetta at 12:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [78 favorites]


NYT Opinion: The Debates Were a Failure of Journalism:
Tonight wrapped up three weeks of presidential campaign debates. It was also a three-week period in which cities in at least 34 states reported record-high temperatures. New York reached 80 degrees today, and Nashville nearly hit 90.

This year is all but guaranteed to be the planet’s hottest on record, just as 2015 and 2014 were. The damage from climate change is now speeding up.

And how many questions were Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Tim Kaine and Mike Pence asked about climate change over the six hours of their four combined debates?

Zero.
posted by zachlipton at 12:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [85 favorites]


I will keep you in suspense

He really does think this is reality TV, doesn't he?
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 10:10 PM on October 19


Yes, and he's come far too close to succeeding with that as his strategy. Even now, after losing the debate by every reasonable metric, he's guaranteed everyone will be talking about him making that borderline-seditious sound byte. From a purely narcissistic perspective, that's a big win.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


FWIW: I have rapidly come to agree with people who are saying the Wikileaks stuff shouldn't even be dignified with a response. That stuff was stolen, full stop, and if it had been physically taken as a file in a burglary people would recognize it for the crime it is.

Wikileaks didn't steal anything. They received some stolen emails and decided they were of sufficient public interest to be published. Suggesting that Wikileaks acted illegally is the same as suggesting the NYT acted illegally in publishing Trump's 1995 tax return.

(Some of) the material is relevant to the public because it reveals someone running to become president of the United States expressing beliefs in private that contradict positions they are making in public.

I can understand if people want to argue about the merits of publishing every single email, but are you really suggesting none of it should have been published? Or that journalists should not discuss evidence that Hillary Clinton is lying to the public about her policy positions?

More from Glen Greenwald.
posted by bigZLiLk at 1:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


It hurts to see such a highly accomplished, qualified woman having to stand on a stage with such a grossly ignorant, unqualified man who has slandered her, incited violence against her, and taken it upon himself to assess her rear end, and to debate him as a supposed equal. It's painful to see her having to be constantly interrupted by him, having to try to refute his incessant lies, having to try impart facts and reason while he bellows that she is a "nasty woman" who is "wrong" though there is overwhelming evidence that she isn't. It hurts all the more because I know how often this sort of thing plays out in private. I have had too many of my own experiences with men who constantly interrupt and yell me down, who think that "you're stupid and you don't know anything" is an acceptable rejoinder in an argument, and who are outraged to be criticized for it. I grew up with two older brothers who routinely did this sort of thing, and worse. Women deserve better, and it's long past time we got it.
posted by orange swan at 1:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [140 favorites]


There was a Slate article posted two days ago about how Trump thinks bringing Barack Obama's older half-brother, Malik Obama, who is a Trump supporter, to the third debate, is somehow one-upping Hillary Clinton. At this point Trump's basically like that guy in high school who tried to make you jealous by dating your friend's cousin, of whose existence you'd barely been aware except to think she was kind of weird.
posted by orange swan at 1:33 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Nate Silver talks to Stephen Colbert, they discuss Egg and Colbert is sort of flabbergasted about the existence of this candidate.
posted by zachlipton at 1:35 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, and John Oliver did a whole piece on third party candidates on Sunday, but with nary a McMuffin in sight.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


ppl like "what's with Hilary's pantsuit, she looks like a interplanetary leader from the future" FUCKING
DUH
DRESS FOR THE JOB YOU WANT
--@caseyjohnston

Colbert described her outfit, endearingly I think, as "Star Trek: Deep Space Pope"
posted by zachlipton at 1:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [113 favorites]


Hillary Clinton’s 3 debate performances left the Trump campaign in ruins. "The third and final presidential debate has ended, and it can now be said: Hillary Clinton crushed Donald Trump in the most effective series of debate performances in modern political history."
posted by effbot at 1:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [57 favorites]


It hurts to see such a highly accomplished, qualified woman having to stand on a stage with such a grossly ignorant, unqualified man [...]

I also feel a sort of vicarious embarrassment, but you know what? Clinton mostly looked as if she was having fun. And she should! This is what she has been working for all her life, and she couldn't have asked for an opponent more clearly distinguished from her. Against practically any other nominee it would have been a matter of degree: who exhibits better judgment, who has more experience, who can speak more insightfully. But against Trump? There's no comparison! It was practically an opportunity for her to finally show us, unchallenged, what she's like. Just look at that cute smile she kept flashing. This was her moment – and the first of many.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:00 AM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


Defeated and disgraced: the post-debate Trump Family photo.

The expression on Tiffany's face is priceless. "Mom was right about you."
posted by valetta at 2:22 AM on October 20, 2016 [105 favorites]


I've seen jollier funerals.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:44 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


My dad is a lifelong Republican who's become one of those 1 issue pro-lifer voters as he's grown older. On my recent trip back stateside, even he admitted to not wanting Trump, but Hillary was problematic for his pet issue.

I flat out told him that if Trump was elected there would be no chance of me moving Hubs and the grandchildren to the US until the cheeto golem was out of office. He said he might hold his nose and vote for her then.

Think I'm gonna go put some more cheese on the reward lever today.
posted by romakimmy at 2:50 AM on October 20, 2016 [94 favorites]


sorry for the derail, but good god, as an expat, playing with parents' expectations of whether i will or won't move sounds like a recipe for emotional pain down the road. are you sure that's a good idea? has your famiy already decided to move?
posted by andrewcooke at 3:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


i thought clinton did well last night. she has really found a way to be tough without being [insert any of the misogynistic characterisations of tough women here].

when trump came out with the "nasty" line i wondered if she would respond. it seems like that is the kind of thing that her team would have forseen. she could have gone for some kind of final put-down (i dunno - something like a pause, then turning to him and saying "bullies really don't like it when someone fights back, do they, donald?"). and i wonder why she/they decided against that. too high risk?
posted by andrewcooke at 3:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Their white-hot white rage is not going to go away.

Also: the next 4-8 years will be a tough time to be a woman in America. Think the spike in domestic violence after the Superbowl, multiplied by the rise in domestic violence in Australia after Prime Minister Julia Gillard was demonised in the right-wing press, multiplied by the rise in anti-Black violence when Obama was elected and then some. A lot of angry men are going to, consciously or subconsciously, blame women for stealing their retro-masculinist future, and are going to take it out on their wives, daughters, the girl in class who rejected them, or random female bystanders they project “librul” demonology onto.
posted by acb at 3:10 AM on October 20, 2016 [28 favorites]


"puppet" "no, you're the puppet!"

For their next opening skit, I hope Saturday Night Live are on the phone right now to the Jim Henson Workshop and/or the cast of Avenue Q.

"In tonight's performance, the role previously played by Kate McKinnon will be played by Kate Monster."
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 3:22 AM on October 20, 2016 [32 favorites]


We've had very in depth conversations about my pro and cons list for a move to the states. I was very upfront that the option is shelved for the duration of Trump's term if he's elected.

"Cheese" will be in the form of reinforcing via logical arguments that a vote for Trump actively harms not just him but his three daughters and his granddaughters' futures, not to mention shitting on the dregs of what's left of the Republican Party.

He's not a woke feminist, but bit by bit his eyes are inching open. And since he's undecided thanks to Trump's awfulness, you betcha I'm going to try my damnedest to convince him to pull the lever for Hillary.
posted by romakimmy at 3:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


when trump came out with the "nasty" line i wondered if she would respond.

CLINTON: "Donald thinks belittling women makes him bigger. He goes after their dignity, their self-worth, and I don't think there is a woman anywhere who doesn't know what that feels like. "

CUT TO:

TRUMP: "Such a nasty woman"

CUT TO:

CLINTON: "So we now know what Donald thinks and what he says and how he acts toward women. That's who Donald is."

And end with a GOTV message.
posted by mikelieman at 3:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [25 favorites]


There is an ancient Vulcan proverb: only Donald Trump could run against Hillary Clinton.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:50 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


so you're saying there's no need for the risk when it can be edited that way for an ad? (not sure i understand)
posted by andrewcooke at 3:50 AM on October 20, 2016


so you're saying there's no need for the risk when it can be edited that way for an ad? (not sure i understand)

Indeed. There was no need for her to wrestle the pig last night. All she needed to do was show up, act Presidential, and let her media team do the heavy lifting with Donald's own words.
posted by mikelieman at 4:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Remind me: why is this democracy of ours, this democracy we want to export everywhere by force of arms, so precious and wonderful?

You have a better option? Also I haven't heard "spreading democracy" used as justification for "force of arms" since Bush kinda ruined that for a generation.

Spiro Agnew

What is an anagram for "grow a penis," Alex?
posted by spitbull at 4:12 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


I think Trump has this idea that he'll lure his supporters into his "concession" speech by playing out the suspense ("tune in and see what I decide!"), use that as an opportunity to launch Trump TV, and they'll follow him there like lemmings. But people don't like to be made fools of or taken for granted like that. Not that he'll be abandoned wholesale, but I think most of his supporters will fall away out of disappointment and disgust.
posted by sallybrown at 4:13 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway seems exhausted on CNN right now. She's lost her usual superpower of talking over, under, and around anything and everything. I know these people must realize Donald's going to turn on them when he loses because he can't stand to own his own choices. Just leave, get out of there. Go enjoy the fruits of your decades of anti-Hillary labor, Kellyanne!
posted by sallybrown at 4:20 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sometimes saying nothing is the right move. Anything she might have said would have diminished the shock value and potentially dropped her to his level.
posted by humanfont at 4:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


The word I'm hearing, such as it is, seems to be that Hillary looked competent and prepared and turned in an error-free if not necessarily shining performance, while Trump made one big error ("nasty woman") and one really gigantic, potentially disqualifying error ("I'll keep you in suspense"). Trump needed a big win tonight if he was going to even start a comeback at this stage, and instead he turned in a clear loss. His path is now even more difficult and less plausiblethan before, and my personal JCPL is now low enough that I think I'll try to ignore the election today and catch up on some shit at work instead.

On a personal note, I really enjoyed Hillary's performance last night, on its own terms. As well as being competent and prepared—and I love that we are going to elect a president who exemplifies intelligence and hard work in that way—she seemed passionate and angry about many of the same issues that have been angering me in this election and country. She projected controlled anger in a way that I love seeing and in a way that I think looks really good on her. As well as being just right about a lot of things, she looked actually pissed off at some of the bullshit that's going down out in the world, without giving the impression that she was being controlled by her emotions. The proper role of anger is as a fuel to be turned into energy for doing good, and she showed that she can get angry, but that rather than throwing a tantrum, she can use that anger to Get Shit Done. I love that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:30 AM on October 20, 2016 [63 favorites]


No Kellyanne, stay on the SS Trumptanic. Ignore the way the bow is dipping gently into the sea, and the nervous people standing around in lifejackets. Enjoy the buffet. Have a few drinks. Then retreat to the warmth and comfort of your stateroom.
posted by um at 4:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Politico serves up the schadenfreude...Republicans despondent Trump threw away debate
posted by spitbull at 4:35 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Defeated and disgraced: the post-debate Trump Family photo.

Oh. Ohhhhhhhh. This is going on my mental shelf of schadenfreude right next to the Creepy Crying Santorums.

Remind me: why is this democracy of ours, this democracy we want to export everywhere by force of arms, so precious and wonderful?

It wouldn't be super hard to find immigrants from Haiti, or Turkey, or Kazakhstan, or Pakistan, or Cuba, or many other authoritarian or failed states and ask them that.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Watching morning Joe and hearing Helprin and Scarborough yammer on about how only elites care about Trump's statement that he would concede. That normal, ordinary Americans don't care -- that this is only something elites care about. Oh fuck you Joe Scarborough I'm not some elite political pundit or party leader. I'm am an ordinary voter in Virginia and I think what he said was deeply offensive and horrifying. Don't project your fucking fantasies of how we normal not on TV people think.
posted by humanfont at 4:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [42 favorites]


Remind me: why is this democracy of ours, this democracy we want to export everywhere by force of arms, so precious and wonderful?

Tarumba's comment upthread made me think about what I take for granted, always having lived here.
posted by sallybrown at 4:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yesterday night on MSNBC they were talking about how Hillary wasn't as nice as other debates (in a positive way), and this guy went well yeah all is fair in love and war and i know what he meant but I did a mental double take and for a second was grossed out by the idea of love between Hillary and the great pumpkin

This subconsciously screwed up with my brain because I dreamt I was dating Donald Trump Jr 😣 and then moved on to equally disturbing nightmares

Or it might have been the 2 kilos of tortilla chips, who knows
posted by Tarumba at 4:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Scarborough and Helprin and Mika are self-hating elitists.
posted by spitbull at 4:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not that he'll be abandoned wholesale, but I think most of his supporters will fall away out of disappointment and disgust.

I see the moment going down something like this:

"Be...sure...to drink.....more...ovaltine?!"
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


Great googly moogly -- On NPR this morning, Steve Inskeep was talking to a pollster for each of the two main political parties, and one of them said that Trump didn't do anything that'll prevent him from losing this election, and in fact reinforced the perceptions that are causing him to lose.

The Republican said that.

Also an interesting bit of stage setting, whether intentional or not. The segment was introduced with snippets of audience reactions from Democratic and Republican groups watching the debate in, if memory serves me correctly, Florida. The clip of Democrats had them laughing at some claim of Trump's, while the Republicans were yelling in anger at Clinton.
posted by Gelatin at 4:44 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Scarborough and Helprin and Mika are self-hating elitists.

They were just super condescending and patronizing to Harold Ford Jr. (to the extent that he looked truly upset) for saying (completely reasonably!) Trump indicated he would refuse to accept the result of the election. Basically held out a piece of paper saying "hahaha that's not what he said, can't you read, look at the words, this is the English language, he only said he wouldn't decide yet, you idiot."

Joe is going to hate watching the next few decades of people who don't look like him making significant progress, gaining power and acclaim, challenging him in ways he's always been insulated from...good.
posted by sallybrown at 4:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


Ugh. I had a terrible night's sleep and I'm sure it was due to watching the debate just before bed. I can't wait until I don't have to listen to that smug cheeto's voice ever again.
posted by octothorpe at 5:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


The cable news comparisons to Gore in 2000 still have me livid, even after a night's sleep. The results weren't final in 2000 until the conclusion of the Supreme Court decision (in a challenge that was brought by Gore's opponent, not by Gore) that ended the automatic recount. At that time Gore immediately accepted the finality of the result and publicly announced the conclusion of the race in his opponent's favor.

Many of the usual talking heads who were spewing nonsense about this on TV last night were in their same jobs at the time. They obviously don't remember, or perhaps never understood, the actual sequence of events. Many of them seem to think the polite phone call losing candidates extend to the winner on Election Night has some sort of legal or ontological force and Gore's "taking it back" when the margin in Florida narrowed (again, ultimately to automatic-recount levels) was a failure to concede.

Obviously the law and democratic norms allow for recounts and other sorts of challenges. The plain and obvious meaning of "will you accept the results" is accepting the results once they are final, which Gore did, famously, after a very unfavorable and almost comically illegitimate court decision. Gore is the *positive* example with regard to peaceful transfer of power, not a "Dems did it first."

Meanwhile, Trump is saying he might not accept the results of an election where he gets thumped so bad he loses Texas and Utah.
posted by gerryblog at 5:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [94 favorites]


Sooooo...

After the last debate I commented that I'd had a hideous dream about a giant, screaming Trump head chasing a mankini-wearing Guiliani around, Zardoz style.

Turns out as a "surprise present" for after this debate one of my friends went off and actually photoshopped that up.

THANKS BUDDY. YEAH. THANKS ALOT.
posted by garius at 5:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


I dreamt I was dating Donald Trump Jr 😣 and then moved on to equally disturbing nightmares

I had a dream a few months ago that I could force DJT into dropping out of the election if I made out with him (it was a set-up that was going to be on video). And I DID. For America.
posted by amarynth at 5:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


Ezra Klein for Vox on all three debates and Clintons Strategy

Quite nice analysis of Klein how the Clinton Campaign in and around the debate dismantled Trump in the past couple weeks. It has been very interesting to see the Trump campaign (or what is left from it) go against the political machine that is the Clinton campaign. Also very poignant how Trumps "Strategy" during the primaries just did not work against Clinton and only served as a rope to hang himself on.
posted by Megustalations at 5:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Some thoughts on the O'keefe voter fraud videos. That Wapo article posted above makes a good point: that at least one of the people video taped and subsequently fired does completely shit the bed about political dirty tricks. But about that: the tricks he cops to or brags about are campaign tricks, not voting fraud. There is a huge difference between media manipulation, disruption of events, birddogging, etc, and busing in fake voters from other states. The operatives were wrong to entertain that at all and should be fired just for being stupid, but to be fair they didn't actively condone it, while gleefully bragging about dirty campaign tricks and hiring mentally illl people to support their opponents and such.

Now about campaign tricks: I've had 1st hand experience, briefly, with Republican presidential primary campaign tactics in swing states from the inside. All of those things were discussed and done. On the ground campaigning particularly in the primaries, is nasty insane wet work. If you don't think Obama or Bill or Romney, or any other successful candidate got through a primary without that kinda borderline illegal activity going on, you are naive.

I don't like it, but I think there's a fundamental difference between messing with your opponent's rallies or speeches or yard signs, and actively trying to disenfranchise or cast fraudulent ballots. And hopefully most Americans agree.

The biggest lesson we should learn from this is that the HRC apparatus is very late and contains a lot of leftover assholes, and that she, like Obama, will have to soon (pardon the phrase) drain the swamp of those folks who are helpful to getting elected but not to governing. Clear the distractions, at least til 2018.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


you know, I woke up this morning thinking that well not that DJT would drop out. He'd go do some blow and maybe get his rocks off in whatever way, and then ride deliriously into the sunset.

So it's weird when I see in my twitter feed that Conway used Al Gore as justification for Trump's non-acceptance of the result. I mean, of course it's weird, but I just thought everybody would have a good nap and calm down or something.

Non-coincidentally to this line of thinking, my body is going crazy and hence I'm really stoned right now.
posted by angrycat at 5:10 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


So many types sorry. The apparatus is LARGE not late. Thanks autocorrect
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:10 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests.

However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."

- George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796 (a great thing to read this morning)
posted by sallybrown at 5:13 AM on October 20, 2016 [47 favorites]


If you don't think Obama or Bill or Romney, or any other successful candidate got through a primary without that kinda borderline illegal activity going on, you are naive.

I've read a lot of William Kennedy, and Nixon happened during my formative years, so I think of it in cynical terms of:

"If you can't out rat-fuck your opponent and steal the election from them without getting caught, you don't deserve it"

And at the core, Donnie is furious that he's just not good enough for the gig on so many dimensions. Including fucking rats.
posted by mikelieman at 5:13 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


So many types sorry ... Thanks autocorrect.

Ducking right.
posted by spitbull at 5:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Are Joe and Mika the only sentient creatures claiming Trump didn't really say he wouldn't necessarily accept the results of the election?? And yes, they were horrible to Harold Ford, Jr.

Scarborough and Helprin and Mika are self-hating elitists.

I gave Mika the benefit of the doubt for so long. Now I mostly think of her as the human embodiment of "Is this something I'd need a TV to understand?"


posted by Room 641-A at 5:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


But about that: the tricks he cops to or brags about are campaign tricks, not voting fraud.

Hate to disagree, but in the second video, he does indeed brag about voter fraud. And while I admire your optimism, I think you are mistaken if you think this is going to change anything in the Democratic party, least of all if they win. It's not as if revelations of 1960 fraud sobered the DNC, never mind how they played Bernie.

Shame, alas, does not figure into the political animal, regardless of party affiliation.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:28 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


a terrible night's sleep

Man, the Trump surrogates this morning look like they're running on No-Doz and Mountain Dew after an all night beer pong tournament.

Their Gish Gallop game is falling flat and you can smell the crusted desperation on their breath. Scottie Neal whoever especially.
posted by spitbull at 5:28 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


So my local-news friend who was sent to Vegas for the debate has been up all night (the only thing he has to do today is catch a flight) and thinks that Geraldo might be stalking him (he has thus far encountered him on the flight in, at the hotel, and at an improbable bar).

It might just be the Red Bull talking, but I'm not going to rule it out.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:29 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


It might just be the Red Bull talking, but I'm not going to rule it out.

Temporary Vegas-induced psychosis is a known risk.
posted by mikelieman at 5:33 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton mostly looked as if she was having fun.

Yeah, but...

It's fun to win and it's satisfying to do well, especially in the face of a challenge. But you can still be angry and dispirited because the challenge didn't come from having an equally meritorious opponent--but because the odds were unfairly stacked against you. Trump would not have gotten this far if he was a woman. Trump would not have gotten this far if Hillary was a man. The fact that this ignorant, unqualified gasbag is in any way considered to be her competition is an insult to women.

We are very lucky as a nation that Hillary is such an extraordinary candidate. If she was only as good as the average male candidate, the race would be much closer, even though she would still be 500% better than Trump.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [102 favorites]


100+ million people voting using thousands of locally controlled and incommensurable systems in a highly urbanized and mobile society is the definition of a complex social process that could not possibly be perfectly airtight. Just like there is some basic background level of inflation or unemployment or crime that the system is not maximized to eliminate at the cost of other virtues (growth, job mobility, civil liberties), no litany of minor and inconsequential "fraud" examples should be allowed to trump (lol) the obvious statistical robustness of the process overall.
posted by spitbull at 5:38 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Now I mostly think of her [Mika] as the human embodiment of "Is this something I'd need a TV to understand?"

This non-American's introduction to Morning Joe... the morning fellow Brit Russell Brand ("stop saying he") met Mika ("who has hair like Princess Diane" and is a "shaft grasper")
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:39 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


When even AP has had enough of your shit you know you're done.
posted by Talez at 5:39 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


The fact that this ignorant, unqualified gasbag is in any way considered to be her competition is an insult to women.

Oh believe me, I'm insulted that Trump is considered a man.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:45 AM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


The threat of refusing to accept the election results should be rubbed in the face of any Republican standing for reelection:

Journo: The Republican party is questioning the legitimacy of the coming elections. What evidence do you have of vote tampering in your district?

Pol: Well, it's not the Republican party that has questioned the elections...

Journo: Your presidential candidate has.

Pol: OK, you'll have to ask him that yourself.

Journo: So you disagree with your presidential candidate on the most important issue facing our country today?

Pol: I didn't say that I disagree with him. It's just that I don't think that this issue is that important.

Journo: You don't think that the survival of democracy is important?

And so on...
posted by sour cream at 5:47 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


Someone is already selling Nasty Woman shirts.

I'm always amused when Washington bubble people decide to inform the viewing audience about how "non-elite people" feel about things. How exactly do they know that? Did they poll? Have they talked to a couple of taxi drivers and extrapolated from that? Do they think that everyone who lives outside of their zipcode and makes less than $250,000 a year is some sort of undifferentiated mass that thinks with one mind? It's such a stupid, stupid thing, and they do it all the damn time.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rasmussen has Trump +3 today in the four way race. Does anyone take these idiots seriously?
posted by Justinian at 5:49 AM on October 20, 2016


Just timed it. It was 1:00:40.

It just occurred to me that Hillary is probably squeezing in half an hour of work on shaving that extra 4/10ths of a second off her one minute pitch this morning.
posted by spitbull at 5:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


A long ago article on Slate looking into the allegations of massive vote fraud in 1960 seems to show that this story is largely a myth.
posted by humanfont at 5:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


The very first question was about how the candidates would choose nominees for the Supreme Court. Clinton answered the question. Trump started talking about how a Supreme Court justice had been rude to him. If you want a G-rated encapsulation of his candidacy and the way his mind works, there it is.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:50 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


ugh. he just said that roe v wade will be automatically overturned if he gets to put SCOTUS up. jeebus. how did you guys watch this?

Behind my sofa, through my fingers; same way I watched Doctor Who as a kid.
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [36 favorites]


Rasmussen has Trump +3 today in the four way race. Does anyone take these idiots seriously?

They have Trump getting 20-25% of the African American vote.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Re: Pantsuits

Now that we're done with the debates, I really thought she rocked the red (First Debate) and this cream/ivory outfits. The navy blue one for the second debate seemed too muted.

All I remember from Donald is that he wore a red tie (or maybe the same exact outfit) in the last two debates and that his blue tie from debate 1 was weak against her rocking red pantsuit.
posted by INFJ at 5:52 AM on October 20, 2016


Good morning, MetaFilter!

Time to swing by FB and find out which of your friends and family will sadden and disappoint you today!
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:53 AM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


20-25% of the African American vote.

Yeah that's the dude Trump referred to as "my African American" and he is the whole sample of black voters in all the best polls.
posted by spitbull at 5:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


NO YOU'RE THE PUPPET!

Sorry I just wanted to say that.
posted by dis_integration at 5:56 AM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


Your husband disagrees with you.
posted by spitbull at 5:56 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rasmussen also seems to have Trump and Clinton tied among Latino voters. Good luck with that.
posted by Justinian at 5:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


NO YOU'RE THE PUPPET!

My earworm since last night
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jacob Soboroff interviewing a young female undecided voter on MSNBC - he asked if the discussion about the Supreme Court, the Second Amendment, and Roe v. Wade is something that matters to her. Her response is she cares more about things that affect her daily life.

Get back to me when you lose your right to choose, my friend.

I wish we taught government and the law in depth at every level of public schooling. Even Trump, last night - the way he talked about Roe v. Wade being "automatically" overturned, the way he said Clinton could have changed the law if she wanted to when she was in the Senate - it's very clear he didn't understand the way basic legal processes work. I swear he would not have been able to answer (1) How does a bill become a law?; and (2) How does a legal issue get to the Supreme Court and how does the Supreme Court have the ability to rule on a legal issue?
posted by sallybrown at 5:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [47 favorites]


I just got two tickets for the Trump rally in VA Beach. I might go if I'm bored.
posted by Tarumba at 5:59 AM on October 20, 2016


But honestly how can you be undecided at this point?

THEORY: these people are not undecided. They know who they're voting for, but they want everyone to know that they are NOT HAPPY about their choices because they have STANDARDS and PRINCIPLES. Eh, okay, whatever. Just freaking vote.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:00 AM on October 20, 2016 [28 favorites]


You know what? This dudebro and his supporters have just about gotten past ALL my pacifist tendencies - there's a growing part of me that hopes he doesn't accept the loss when it comes, and his supporters do some stupid things as a result, and they all end up in jail.

The only thing that keeps me from cackling with glee at such a scenario is knowing the amount of collateral damage it would cause to innocent people and our country.
posted by Mooski at 6:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


THEORY: these people are not undecided.

This young woman (college student) seemed completely undecided. Said she's been busy and didn't want to pay attention for months ahead of time, so she wanted to take a close look now and decide. I guess if you're surrounded by like-minded people and have lots of responsibilities, don't watch the news or follow pages like Politico, you might have been able to avoid hearing anything but a distant buzz until about Trump tape time. I'm not sure when during the debate Jacob was talking to her - I can't see how any thinking person could be undecided by the end.
posted by sallybrown at 6:04 AM on October 20, 2016


Here's my concern: Now that the election appears to be in the bag for Clinton, does that mean that whoever manages these oppo-drops will decide not to reveal the final big one that would have guaranteed he receives the full reward he deserves?
posted by DanSachs at 6:05 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Now that the election appears to be in the bag for Clinton, does that mean that whoever manages these oppo-drops will decide not to reveal the final big one that would have guaranteed he receives the full reward he deserves?

I imagine that Clinton will want to push downballot races blue as well, so the DCCC will be begging her to drop everything so they can tie Representative Bupkus (R-Podunk) to the latest piece of Trump news.
posted by Etrigan at 6:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


does that mean that whoever manages these oppo-drops will decide not to reveal the final big one that would have guaranteed he receives the full reward he deserves?

There's still the down-ticket races to win, so my guess is they'll use every bullet in the gun, and probably keep pulling the trigger after.
posted by Mooski at 6:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm wondering that, too. I do think it's a depressing inevitability that the polls will start to tighten in the final weeks, barring any more huge gaffes or controversies. So I hope, if there is one final big oppo drop as is rumored, it does come out. Probably around the 1st of the month.
posted by Roommate at 6:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


But honestly how can you be undecided at this point?

Honestly, I think a chunk of these mythical undecideds are like my coworker who feel like it doesn't matter who they vote for because their personal snowflake life won't change much. No amount of debates will change their mind on that point. I want the scream at him, but it would probably put me on the wrong side of the Hatch Act.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


If they have oppo to drop, they will drop it but they are keeping their powder dry for as long as possible because the American electorate notoriously has the attention span of a gnat.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:10 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


I think they keep having to reschedule oppo drops around new sexual assault victims coming forward. (The press conference for today's is at 11.)
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Scarborough and Helprin and Mika are self-hating elitists.

I don't really know why I care, but I have trouble parsing them at all. Seemed like they saw him for what he was, then did a big turn into an "ahhhhh, he's all right" weird denial fantasy. I don't know how you go from shocked silence about him repeatedly asking about dropping nukes on people in a security briefing to saying there's no way this guy would try to force a constitutional crisis. And being condescending about it.

Maybe it's that they were previously really worried he'd win, so they felt an urge to try to help stop that, and now that it's in the bag, they can go back to playing the shitty talking head game? I dunno. They look increasingly like empty suits to me. Stuff whatever reaction gets the ratings up in there and pull the cord.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I wish we taught government and the law in depth at every level of public schooling. Even Trump, last night - the way he talked about Roe v. Wade being "automatically" overturned, the way he said Clinton could have changed the law if she wanted to when she was in the Senate - it's very clear he didn't understand the way basic legal processes work. I swear he would not have been able to answer (1) How does a bill become a law?; and (2) How does a legal issue get to the Supreme Court and how does the Supreme Court have the ability to rule on a legal issue?

I even know this and I'm Canadian. And it's not like I know it because I'm some scholar in American government. Schoolhouse Rock for the win! Plus if you generally pay any sort of long term attention to major news stories and events you just pick up how things work.

Throughout this whole election I've constantly thought how awful it is that I quite probably know heaps more about 'how things work' then an actual Presidential candidate.
posted by Jalliah at 6:13 AM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


I just got two tickets for the Trump rally in VA Beach. I might go if I'm bored.

Please don't give this man the satisfaction of a crowd.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:13 AM on October 20, 2016 [25 favorites]


Hate to disagree, but in the second video, he does indeed brag about voter fraud.

No, actually, they don't. There's discussion of hypotheticals, but not voter fraud actually being comitted.

And while I admire your optimism, I think you are mistaken if you think this is going to change anything in the Democratic party, least of all if they win. It's not as if revelations of 1960 fraud sobered the DNC, never mind how they played Bernie.

This makes zero sense. Are you accusing the Democrats of committing mass voter fraud that has somehow gone undetected by dozens if not hundreds of investigations conducted over the better part of two decades? Or that a primary (or the whole primary election) was stolen from Sanders via voter fraud? Because neither of those assertions are backed up by anything other than rumors and creative editing, let alone hard, empirical evidence. It takes a lot of hubristo accuse others of being uninformed and misled do this while making unsupported allegations.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [46 favorites]


I just got two tickets for the Tarantula rally in VA Beach.

I mean that's just how I read it but hey.
posted by cashman at 6:17 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Señor Hubristo is one bad hombre.
posted by argybarg at 6:18 AM on October 20, 2016 [49 favorites]


Yeah, uh...I meant to do that!
posted by zombieflanders at 6:19 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I wish we taught government and the law in depth at every level of public schooling. Even Trump, last night - the way he talked about Roe v. Wade being "automatically" overturned, the way he said Clinton could have changed the law if she wanted to when she was in the Senate - it's very clear he didn't understand the way basic legal processes work.

Meh, Trump has never been about telling the truth. His entire schtick is an emotional way and it resonates because a large number of his supporters do feel left out the good life in America. More education won't help that underlying problem.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


More education won't help that underlying problem.

I disagree. In my opinion, more education is the only thing that will help that underlying problem.
posted by Mooski at 6:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [36 favorites]


I was at a watch party. Media came. I got to say I hoped they'd discuss policy and it would be boring. I also said 'People DIED for our right to vote!' I've been working very hard for Hillary.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:22 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


It just occurred to me that Hillary is probably squeezing in half an hour of work on shaving that extra 4/10ths of a second off her one minute pitch this morning.

The universe where the candidates use a chess clock must be so fucking cool.
posted by mikelieman at 6:22 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


It looks like the consensus position of the media contrarians is the old "it upsets the elites" chestnut. Both Joe Scarborough and Mark Halperin (both of whom have a history of cozying up to Trump in this election cycle)are already telling it to anyone who listen, I assume it'll start showing up on Fox pretty soon.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:24 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think some people (talking about undecideds here) are just really mistrustful of having a strong opinion about anything. As a lifelong extremely opinionated person (married to another extremely opinionated person, where our dinner table conversation last night contained the assertion, "epistemic closure is fine, if you're right!") , I do run up against these opposite numbers from time to time and I find them baffling, but it's definitely a thing. Any strong opinion is automatically suspect, any disagreement is not a growth opportunity but anxiety-producing just by its existence. Because let's face it, there are quite a few parents out there who raise their kids to not express their feelings and thoughts, sometimes to an abusive extent.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


It's not even deliberate lying though, Brandon. It's just ignorance. He's not twisting the truth to please his followers, he genuinely has no idea how the fuck things work. Same with how he kept referring to economic growth as "GDP," as in (paraphrasing) "GDP is one percent, one-and-a-half percent, and I think it's going down. When I'm president, we'll have GDP at four, maybe even five or six percent." Like, bro, that's not what GDP is. Even I know that, and I'm just some guy!
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [51 favorites]


his comments about Mosul make no sense.
posted by juiceCake at 6:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Late to the thread (I can barely stand to watch, let along participate live in the thread about, the debates).

My main takeaway about the format and moderator of this debate was that, had it been a normal Republican candidate debating Clinton, Chris Wallace's typical Fox News spin on debate question topics and biased phrasing would have been total slow-pitch softball, designed to allow the conservative to hit it out of the park again and again - but Trump is so thoroughly unhinged and ignorant, even of traditional conservative and Tea Party talking points, that he was incapable of taking advantage of the repeated easy lobs Wallace was trying to send his way.
posted by aught at 6:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [46 favorites]


This young woman (college student) seemed completely undecided. Said she's been busy and didn't want to pay attention for months ahead of time, so she wanted to take a close look now and decide.

I saw that. MSNBC's Soboroff was interviewing, right? I still think it's garbage, and indicative of just how well white and male privilege works in American society. Trump has disparaged Mexicans. Trump has said he will stop people from coming into the US based on their religion!

And this stuff is well known. It has been shouted from the rooftops, repeated at rallies and in articles and in debates. No way that person wasn't aware of Trump saying he wanted to ban people from entering the United States based on their religion. That's as anti-American as you can get! How are you then undecided? It makes no sense, except that a white man must always be given consideration in America. It reminds me of those commercials where there's a guy posing as a banker and giving some financial advice and people are believing him, and then he reveals that he's a roadie for a band or something. But it's like you put on the veneer of being a suit-wearing white man, and whatever you tell people, they give you the benefit of the doubt. Meanwhile there are stories where black women are literally having to stress that they are physicians and people don't believe them, even as there is someone needing medical attention.

So how are people undecided? Because socialization in America tells us whatever a white man says must be considered. Even when it goes against the very founding of America itself. That is the answer to the all the ridiculous incredulous "I just don't know how this is happening" hanging statements you see on almost every network about how Trump is still around.

Thankfully, socialization in America is changing for the future. And hopefully in a few weeks, we take a giant leap into that future.
posted by cashman at 6:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [64 favorites]


Everyone is focusing on Trump's answer to whether or not he'll accept the results, but I thought the question itself was pretty amazing. The right-wing Fox News guy is asking the Republican candidate, essentially: How are you going to react when you inevitably lose this election?
posted by something something at 6:29 AM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


It's not even deliberate lying though, Brandon. It's just ignorance. He's not twisting the truth to please his followers, he genuinely has no idea how the fuck things work.

Sure, but whether Trump is ignorant or not doesn't matter as long as his emotional appeals are resonating with large groups. Logic, reason and education aren't strong defenses against that.

Ideally Clinton would be doing emotional appeals about how people feel about dealing with a dick boss/CEO who's never done the hardwork of the actual job, but just talks a lot as if they have. But that's not her strong suit at all and besides, she's going to win, so it doesn't matter much at this point.

Madame President never sounded so lovely.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:31 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe it's that they were previously really worried he'd win, so they felt an urge to try to help stop that, and now that it's in the bag, they can go back to playing the shitty talking head game? I dunno. They look increasingly like empty suits to me. Stuff whatever reaction gets the ratings up in there and pull the cord.

I think Joe is having a hard time dealing with the impending wreck of the Republican party. He's spent 8 years hating Obama to such an extreme that it almost seems pathological, planning his wish fulfillment fantasy of Jeb! or Christie swooping in to "rescue" the White House. My impression is he saw his early-days constant discussion of Trump not as amplifying Trump's campaign (the thing many have accused him of) but instead as his attempt to warn everyone to knock Trump out now now now. He unintentionally succeeded in giving Trump PR as a legitimate candidate and failed in getting his faves to stop Trump. He felt like nobody listened to him. :( He felt personally betrayed by Christie going to the dark side. He felt insulted that the great "real" Americans he thinks he knows so well clamored for Trump and not Scarborough. He's now flitting between denial of what's happening, increased rage at Obama, ignoring that Clinton exists half the time, and petulance generally.

Mika, on the other hand...what are you doing, dude? Probably reading too much in from my own experience, but it reminds me of being so drunk-in-love with someone that you take up residence in the world that exists inside his head and that can really skew your perception. It was very unlike her to bully Harold Ford Jr. the way she willingly did this morning.

The best compliment I can give Morning Joe lately is their music is on point; they led to commercial the other week with some Joni Mitchell! So I'm glad at least that Joe's music stuff appears to be doing some good for him.
posted by sallybrown at 6:31 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can anyone point me to a brief overview of the latest O'Keefe videos that doesn't involve watching the videos?

He still can't be trusted to honestly photograph clay, so there's not anything to discuss that I can see.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:33 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


We are very lucky as a nation that Hillary is such an extraordinary candidate. If she was only as good as the average male candidate, the race would be much closer, even though she would still be 500% better than Trump.

that is some air-tight spin right there. the worse Clinton polls, the more prejudiced society is against her, the more extraordinary politician she is to do as well as she does. the better she does, the even more extraordinary politician she is...

Clinton will win without a commitment to do anything other than be her awesome self, and not be Trump and that's how they designed her general election campaign. for all the talk of existential political crisis, the Democratic party is perfectly happy to run against "Trump" over and over again, if it results in lopsided victories, and is too short-sighted and cynical to realize how badly that is going to end. two parties: a business friendly and supported with deep Wall Street ties "centrist" Democratic party and a rump fascist party. the problem is: what if the economy for the last 16 years is not an aberration? when does the next recession occur? will it occur without any real recovery?

Clinton's politics is predicated on the assumptions of the "great moderation:" that competent administration and conservative economic policy will result in stable growth and low unemployment, forever. What if that isn't true?
posted by ennui.bz at 6:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I just got two tickets for the Trump rally in VA Beach. I might go if I'm bored.

Here, I'll save you the trip.

posted by Rykey at 6:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The right-wing Fox News guy is asking the Republican candidate, essentially: How are you going to react when you inevitably lose this election?

Chris Wallace, son of Mike Wallace, is a Democrat.
posted by Splunge at 6:35 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I got the impression that Clinton actually enjoyed sparring with Wallace as he's the first worthy opponent she's faced in a while.
posted by whuppy at 6:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


What if that isn't true?

We get to vote again in 4 years?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


Just a quick non-debate derail: Ridin with Biden.
Diamond Joe doing a burnout in his '67 Corvette. All is right with the world, if only for a few minutes.
posted by rp at 6:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


I never knew that Abra Kadabra was a Russian spy.

(Though this explains Trump's anger as Hillary was giving away his secret identity.)
posted by delfin at 6:42 AM on October 20, 2016


Chris Wallace is a Fox news set piece Democrat, who used the term "entitlements" to describe pensions.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [60 favorites]


Chris Wallace, son of Mike Wallace, is a Democrat.

He has also stated that his reason for being a Democrat is that he lives in DC and, like here in Philly, primaries are the elections that matter.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I love how Chris Wallace talks about how 60% of the federal budget is entitlements, and then asks the candidates a leading question about how they're going to deal with the 10% that constitutes Social Security and Medicare, while completely failing to mention the 50% that is the Department of Defense. What a worthless question.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:47 AM on October 20, 2016 [44 favorites]


Wallace a Democrat, and Holt a Republican? It's a confusing world there in the higher media echelons.
posted by dis_integration at 6:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't imagine how bizarre the Al Smith dinner will be tonight. I feel like there's a better than 50% chance Trump isn't going to show.
posted by thebrokedown at 6:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wallace is FOX News' beard, his voting registration is irrelevant.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I got the impression that Clinton actually enjoyed sparring with Wallace as he's the first worthy opponent she's faced in a while.
Yeah, it's interesting: I think the thing that people miss about Hillary is that she likes a good fight. People keep expecting her to wilt under pressure, but she's in her element when she's under pressure.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [44 favorites]


By the way, I really admired the way that Clinton just powered right on through Wallace's deliberately shitty question framing again and again, like it wasn't even there. That was the only right way to deal with that—just answer the question as if he had asked it in a neutral rather than a leading way and don't waste time arguing with the moderator over the framing because you can only hurt yourself doing that—and she repeatedly delivered a flawless execution of that tactic. She and her team clearly expected going in that the Fox moderator was going to pitch slanted questions, and she was totally prepared for it.

She saw the problem coming, identified the correct strategy for dealing with it, did the necessary prep work, and then executed smoothly in the moment. I could see what was going on, but she did a much better job than I could ever have done in that situation. It was really lovely to watch a pro in action there.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:52 AM on October 20, 2016 [114 favorites]


Another brief derail. Right now on Wikipedia, Bigly Chew.
posted by roger ackroyd at 6:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


Ideally Clinton would be doing emotional appeals about how people feel about dealing with a dick boss/CEO who's never done the hardwork of the actual job, but just talks a lot as if they have.

I think she is, although you & I might not really grok it on an emotional level - because we're dudes. Simply by intentionally giving Donald room to be Donald, she's giving millions of women an opportunity to recognize, "Oh fuck, he's That Guy." It's an emotional appeal that uses her opponent's own words and actions against him.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [56 favorites]


Chris Wallace is a Democrat in the same way that I am an alien shapeshifted to look hoo-man so that I could marry an earth woman and take over planet Terra with my interplanetary offspring. It's a thing we're both saying (in my case, to my kids over the last two years), but even a cursory glance at the evidence shows otherwise. Shit, my kids don't even believe my story, and one of them can barely read.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


I can't imagine how bizarre the Al Smith dinner will be tonight. I feel like there's a better than 50% chance Trump isn't going to show.

Does the Smith dinner entail some gentle roasting of both candidates, like the Correspondent's Dinner but a little bit of a softer touch? Because there's no way Trump will be able to laugh at himself after this disastrous October.
posted by dis_integration at 6:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I love how Chris Wallace talks about how 60% of the federal budget is entitlements, and then asks the candidates a leading question about how they're going to deal with the 10% that constitutes Social Security and Medicare, while completely failing to mention the 50% that is the Department of Defense. What a worthless question.

Huh? Defense isn't entitlement spending, and it's not 50% of all spending. It is roughly 50% of discretionary spending, though (source).
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, in these debates, I would have been hard pressed not to just say "Are you fucking kidding me with this guy?" Which is why I'm a rabble rouser at school board meetings, and not a board member.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


But yeah, credit where it's due: Wallace did a good job of pinning Trump down on whether he will concede the election if he loses, and getting a clear answer out of him. It's hard to get Trump to make sense, especially when he doesn't want to, but Wallace effectively pushed the point until Trump said something that can't be defended through plausible deniability or semantic weaseling. The public needed a clear answer on that point, and Wallace made sure we got it. He did well there.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


Has anyone seen a good debate wrap-up floating around? I didn't watch last night.
posted by codacorolla at 6:59 AM on October 20, 2016


Because there's no way Trump will be able to laugh at himself after this disastrous October.

The flip side is that he is stewing in so much of his own truly disgusting shit that it almost seems inappropriate for Clinton to go up there and make light of it. Like, what does she do? Begin speaking and then just randomly yell WRONG? The real stuff is so gross that you can't hit on it and remain light.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


My bad, AndrewInDC. I was operating under a misconception of how the budget is categorized. Was Wallace remotely accurate then in saying that entitlement spending constitutes 60% of the federal budget, and in implying that Social Security and Medicare make up the bulk of that?

It's a good thing I'm not running for President, eh?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I thought the BBC made a pretty good job of the wrap-up. And if you read German, Der Spiegel.
posted by Namlit at 7:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's a good thing I'm not running for President, eh?

You're asking questions and trying to become informed. That gives you a leg up on roughly half the major entrants into this year's race.
posted by codacorolla at 7:05 AM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


At Der Spiegel, we also encounter the official translation of the non-polishable turd:

...wie es CNN-Kommentator Van Jones formulierte: "Diesen Hundehaufen kann man nicht polieren."

["Hundehaufen" = lit.: dog-heap for anyone who's interested]
posted by Namlit at 7:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]




Kate Manne at HuffPo: When a Man Competes with a Woman:
We often conceptualize gender biases as something like demerit points applied to individual women, who we subsequently assess more negatively than we would do otherwise, in the domains in which we’re biased. We tend to underestimate her, making it harder for her to compete with a male counterpart, who we are disposed to assess fairly. She might have to be twice as good to beat him, say, in an extreme case.

But there’s a distinct way of conceptualizing gender biases as applying to our rankings of men and women, and disposing us to prefer a man to his female counterpart – by, e.g., supporting, promoting, liking, believing, or voting for him over her. This may result in overestimating him, and turning against her with hostility, as well as underestimating her merits. Regardless of how good she is, we may find something to doubt or dislike about her – again, in extreme cases.

Unfortunately, one such may be that in which we currently find ourselves – where a man and a woman are competing for a position of historically male-dominated authority. The following empirical evidence, yet to be cited in this connection, sheds light on the question many people have been asking lately: how is someone like Trump still receiving nearly 40 per cent of the vote, even as he continues spectacularly flaming out? Why haven’t more voters defected to Clinton? An important part of the answer is suggested by these three studies – three of many evincing a strong disposition to uphold gendered social hierarchies.
posted by palindromic at 7:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


I just want to say that I have Sharon Stone and the Dap-Kings on in my office today, and she's delivering a perfect soundtrack for this phase of the election. If you've ever experienced the moment in an abusive relationship where you finally realize that you're leaving for real and there's nothing your abuser can do about it, you'll understand me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


I voted!
posted by sara is disenchanted at 7:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


Sharon Stone and the Dap-Kings

I beg you to not edit this comment.
posted by palindromic at 7:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [78 favorites]


CBO Infographic showing expenses and income.

Thanks for this - I chuckled a bit as I noted the years where there was a budget surplus and the national debt shrank a bit.

Spoiler: The first Clinton administration.
posted by Mooski at 7:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Has anyone seen a good debate wrap-up floating around? I didn't watch last night.

MeFi user petebest gamely transcribed much of the proceedings, live, in this very thread. I bet if you visit the comments tab on petebest's user page, you'll find a pretty good rundown of the evening.
posted by notyou at 7:12 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


My bad, AndrewInDC. I was operating under a misconception of how the budget is categorized. Was Wallace remotely accurate then in saying that entitlement spending constitutes 60% of the federal budget, and in implying that Social Security and Medicare make up the bulk of that?

If you consider social security part of the budget and the EITC as a social welfare program then the 60% figure is accurate: 25% SS, 25% medicare et al, 10% other social service funding, but this includes the "earned income tax credit" as a social service program rather than a tax credit.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:13 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I love how Chris Wallace talks about how 60% of the federal budget is entitlements, and then asks the candidates a leading question about how they're going to deal with the 10% that constitutes Social Security and Medicare, while completely failing to mention the 50% that is the Department of Defense.

Entitlements plus interest are 65% of the budget; defense is 16%, and not part of entitlements.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:16 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


but talking about X program is Y % of the budget is always a way to be misleading. the basic fact is that US health care costs are enormous compared to the rest of the world and the US is heavily militarized and buys extremely expensive weapons and both of these costs have eaten the federal budget and have come to define federal government policy.

including SS in the budget fully muddies the issue since SS taxes are bigger than SS payouts. but it can be played politically in either direction:

1) OMG! SS is eating the budget
or
2) SS can always been paid for by increasing SS taxes, there is no real crisis.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:19 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Gee, Frowner, I notice that a full 80% of your budget goes for food, rent, heat, water and the other costs of reproducing your labor. Isn't this terrible? What are you planning to do about how you spend your money on useful things that benefit you?

I mean, if we spend 65% of our money on Medicaid and Social Security, surely that's a good thing, more or less? It's not as though Medicaid and Social Security provide personal chefs and gold plated bath taps.
posted by Frowner at 7:20 AM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


Yes, traditionally, the Al Smith dinner features a short speech by each candidate featuring gentle roasting of the other candidate and self-deprecating jokes about yourself. Not exactly Trump's wheelhouse. And Clinton is rumored to be going first.
posted by thebrokedown at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Can we just send Kate McKinnon and Alec Baldwin to the Al Smith dinner?
posted by zutalors! at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


Not that reducing medical costs isn't important, but this whole "why are we spending all this money on old people and health care" conversation isn't really about medical costs - it's about the idea that paying for that stuff is ipso facto bad.
posted by Frowner at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


Room 641-A linked this article upthread, but a few pulls from those who are tl;dr:
The line stretching down the sidewalk past the “wall” of taco trucks is filled with members of the Culinary Workers Union, Hillary supporters, local residents, and other taco-loving Americans

Union members wear pageant sashes printed with the words “Ms. Housekeeping” and urge support for the workers of the Trump hotel; more than half, they say, want to negotiate for union representation. Signs read “Tacos trump hate” and political action committee American Bridge 21st Century is handing out free tacos, perhaps the most symbolic food of the 2016 presidential election.
Come for the Ms. Housekeeping sashes, stay for the papel picado t-shirts stating "Taco Trucks Unidos!"
posted by Sophie1 at 7:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


I wonder how far Trump is from telling his supporters not to vote? It's a standard tactic in genuinely unfair elections, because it de-legitimises them, and if you're not going to back down from 'it's rigged, we can't win' it's the next logical step.

It's also the only option he has left, even if it is nuclear - especially to the GOP - to keep a narrative where he showed 'em, he socked it to the man.

A phenomenally bad idea. But he's Trunp, and he has a razor.
__
posted by Devonian at 7:24 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


OH yes that would be terrible plz don't tell your people not to vote Mr. Trump oh no.
posted by emjaybee at 7:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


numaner: Little Haiti is just like real Haiti!

Trump toured the world, without leaving the United States. Walk through every Little country community, collect your country pins and fill up your pin board, like a real adult human!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


That's honestly a rationalisation of a shitty system, which makes it one of those bugs-not-a-feature that you dare not debug because any changes will bring down the shitty system.

It's not a rationalization to note that an inferior system has some merit. Our electoral system has many flaws, but noting that it's harder to compromise because of the decentralization and heterogeneity is not an acknowledgement that it's better overall.

Florida 2000 was the exception that proves the rule -- the only reason the irregularities mattered was because the result was so close. Reducing the number of independent authorities that certify results increases the chances that any one set of those parties can swing the election on an even larger scale, making shitshows like Bush/Gore routine.

I'm all for electoral reform, including federal standards limiting what the states can and cannot do, but it has to be done in a way that prevents a small number of bad actors from gaming the system on a massive scale the way one might do with fully federalized elections.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Just a quick non-debate derail: Ridin with Biden.
Diamond Joe doing a burnout in his '67 Corvette. All is right with the world, if only for a few minutes.

Holy shizz, all this time I thought the Corvette was just an Onion Joe thing!
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Not that reducing medical costs isn't important, but this whole "why are we spending all this money on old people and health care" conversation isn't really about medical costs - it's about the idea that paying for that stuff is ipso facto bad.

but the US federal government budget is driven by two insanities:

1) we spend about double on health care for old people compared to Europe without any better outcomes
2) we spend more than the next ten countries combined on the military.

The fact that out political system can't address either of these insane situations demonstrates that it is completely dysfunctional. Further, the fact that the political elite has deliberately misconstrued the problem with health care costs ie. "entitlement reform" as a problem with old age pensions eg. SS shows there is a method behind the madness.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:29 AM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


I'm really upset by Helprin's assertion that only elites care whether Trump concedes the election. I'm not elite. I do live deep in the heart of Trump country and my neighbors have guns, lots of them, and the cops are on their side. The barely-there town I live in is completely split politically between a tiny college and a Confederate-flag favoring populace who hates the college despite the fact that it's the town's financial lifeblood. I hate that my joy on election night when I get to see the first woman elected president will be tempered by fear and anxiety about what could happen next.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:31 AM on October 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


Holy shizz, all this time I thought the Corvette was just an Onion Uncle Joe thing!

In 2013, Joe Biden took the time to correct misconceptions from his portrayal by The Onion, saying 'A Trans-Am? Ever look under the hood of a Corvette?'
posted by palindromic at 7:31 AM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


The Onion has Joe in a Transam. He said that was the only thing he wishes they would change.
posted by humanfont at 7:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


I saw that. MSNBC's Soboroff was interviewing, right? I still think it's garbage, and indicative of just how well white and male privilege works in American society. [...] How are you then undecided? It makes no sense, except that a white man must always be given consideration in America.

... You know both voters in the video you linked to are clearly women, right?
posted by Justinian at 7:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Now about campaign tricks: I've had 1st hand experience, briefly, with Republican presidential primary campaign tactics in swing states from the inside. All of those things were discussed and done.

It isn't at all surprising that a party apparatus built on the teachings of Morton Blackwell and supporting a campaign run by Roger Stone is complaining about dirty tricks. Hilarious, maybe, but not surprising.

I expected Donald Trump to double down on his contempt for American government last night, I just didn't expect a reference to a famous Gilligan's Island episode. #nopuppetnopuppet
posted by octobersurprise at 7:33 AM on October 20, 2016


Good morning, this thread is already too much for my laptop! I had tickets to a show last night which basically necessitated my watching the debate at a gay bar beforehand. I was worried I wasn't young and beautiful enough to be hanging out at gay bars in the Castro (at least the particular ones that were hosting watch parties), but OMG it was THE BEST. It was so much fun that despite how ready I am for this election to be over, I'm sad there won't be another one for 4 years! I'm like the most awkward person and I never talk to strangers at bars or whatnot, but at the "bad hombres" line I turned around, made eye contact with a dude, and said "That just happened." I don't know his name and we will never see each other again but I'm pretty sure that moment has made us BFF for life.
posted by sunset in snow country at 7:33 AM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


You know both voters in the video you linked to are clearly women, right?

Women are just as capable of being misogynists as men.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


My cat is now refusing to accept the second breakfast decision results.

THANKS A LOT TRUMP!
posted by srboisvert at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


in the second video, he does indeed brag about voter fraud.

I still don't see it. Forval (an intensely silly braggy wannabe obviously) is entertaining the "reporter"'s idea about voter fraud for some reason, but not saying he's ever done it before.

That said, I really don't care. There doesn't seem to be voter fraud on any significant level, otherwise O'keefe could find evidence beyond someone just talking about potentially doing it, in fragments, while suggesting lots of legal ways to increase turn out as well.

There are lots of ways to influence voting that are indistinguishable from voter enablement. That's where GOTV dollars are (sometimes semi-illegally) spent. In swing states, paying people who maybe don't want to vote to vote a "transportation fee" for instance. Both sides definitely do that, but I'd for sure rather be on the side that is pulling out all the stops to get people to vote as themselves rather than the one that needs to rely on poor people not voting to win, kna mean?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:37 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Women are just as capable of being misogynists as men.

I guess I misunderstood the point, then. I thought the quote I linked was saying the voters were displaying male privilege. But apparently it was claiming that Trump is?
posted by Justinian at 7:37 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]




Has the poll showing Evan McMullin leading the presidential race in Utah shown up here yet?
posted by clawsoon at 7:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Come for the Ms. Housekeeping sashes, stay for the papel picado t-shirts stating "Taco Trucks Unidos!"

This reminds me of my reaction to the "is he ignorant or malevolent" argument upthread - all I could picture was the girl from the taco shell commercials saying "Why not both?"
posted by Mooski at 7:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


But apparently it was claiming that Trump is?

That's how I took it. In a misogynist culture where women also have internalized misogyny, everyone--male and female--has a tendency to give more credence to what men are saying and doing than women.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


if you want to look at how the second Clinton administration will approach "entitlement reform" look at this:
Since 2013, Clinton has sent conflicting signals on retirement policy. During the Democratic primary, under pressure from progressive groups, she agreed to support some targeted Social Security increases and promised not to reduce benefits. But in paid speeches to Wall Street firms, according to recently leaked emails, she praised a presidential commission that recommended cuts to the program. Clinton has not publicly endorsed James’ plan, but her campaign’s blank slate on retirement policy provides a clear opportunity for the Blackstone president and his plan, about which he has just co-authored a book, “Rescuing Retirement.”

Proponents view the initiative as an earnest bipartisan effort by a disinterested financial expert who is deeply concerned about America’s looming retirement security crisis. As James’ partner in shaping the initiative, labor economist Teresa Ghilarducci, put it: “Tony is an independent thinker and he really sees a public policy need. He’s a Democrat, he’s one of the chief supporters of Hillary Clinton’s presidency. His company owns a lot of other companies. Tony told me whenever a company gets rid of a pension plan, he knows a middle-class worker can’t retire.”

On the Democratic side, two of President Obama’s top economic aides have praised James and Ghilarducci’s new book. On the Republican side, George H.W. Bush’s former deputy treasury secretary Bill Jasien — who now runs a financial advisory firm — wrote in the book’s forward: “We may disagree on many political issues, but regardless of one’s political alignment, aspects of Teresa and Tony’s Retirement Savings Plan provide an important road map to put American workers back on track…Their plan is built on common sense principles, key to advancing the debate on a bipartisan basis.”
you are pulling the covers over your head if you don't believe that the coming Clinton administration will try to make the "Grand Bargain" legislative capstone of her presidency.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


By the way, I really admired the way that Clinton just powered right on through Wallace's deliberately shitty question framing again and again, like it wasn't even there. That was the only right way to deal with that—just answer the question as if he had asked it in a neutral rather than a leading way and don't waste time arguing with the moderator over the framing because you can only hurt yourself doing that—and she repeatedly delivered a flawless execution of that tactic. She and her team clearly expected going in that the Fox moderator was going to pitch slanted questions, and she was totally prepared for it.

This is true, but (from my perspective) it's kind of even better than that. She wasn't like "pfft, ok, let me ignore how dumb that framing was" - it was more like "I see what you are really getting at here, behind the rhetoric, so I will answer your concerns and not get hung up on the framing."

This ability to drill down into what people are "really" asking or "really" concerned about is, I think, what makes her an effective politician, because she comes to her political rivals from a position of respect*, and says "how can we both come out of this happy?" That's what tons of Republicans who worked with her in the Senate have said, and I felt like I saw what they meant in the way she talked to Chris Wallace.

*Trump would seem to be the exception, but then, he is not a normal opponent. She's said that every other Republican she's run against, she at least thought was really invested in their vision of the good of the country.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [32 favorites]


It depends on how you draw up the budget. Social Security and Medicare are not subject to annual appropriations because they are ongoing programs sustained by specific payroll taxes. Currently both programs are fully funded by those taxes for more than a decade. If you only look at annual entitlements which are subject to the normal appropriations process e.g. food stamps, housing subsidies, you are looking at a tiny slice of the annual appropriations budget.
posted by humanfont at 7:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary Clinton’s 3 debate performances left the Trump campaign in ruins.

The "tell-all" books that come out of the Trump campaign are going to be pretty amusing, I'll bet.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:44 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Binders Full of Nasty Women

I'd prefer a cabinet full of them.
posted by srboisvert at 7:44 AM on October 20, 2016 [108 favorites]


@HillaryClinton: That feeling when you win three straight debates. #DebateNight

I actually enjoyed watching this debate, simply to see Hillary kick ass and take no prisoners. I can't imagine how it must feel for her for these stupid debates to be over with.
posted by airish at 7:44 AM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


Quick ballot preview--

Getting mauled by horny bears (Trump)
Boring meeting with average quality snacks (Clinton)
Smoking weed next to a neverending tire fire (Johnson)
Dying of measles at a Phish show (Stein)

TOUGH CALL!
posted by haveanicesummer at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [71 favorites]


Holy shizz, all this time I thought the Corvette was just an Onion Uncle Joe thing!

In 2013, Joe Biden took the time to correct misconceptions from his portrayal by The Onion, saying 'A Trans-Am? Ever look under the hood of a Corvette?'
posted by palindromic at 10:31 AM on October 20 [2 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]


The Onion has Joe in a Transam. He said that was the only thing he wishes they would change.
posted by humanfont at 10:32 AM on October 20 [2 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]


I stand corrected. Also, that's awesome and hilarious.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


The following empirical evidence, yet to be cited in this connection, sheds light on the question many people have been asking lately: how is someone like Trump still receiving nearly 40 per cent of the vote, even as he continues spectacularly flaming out? Why haven’t more voters defected to Clinton? An important part of the answer is suggested by these three studies – three of many evincing a strong disposition to uphold gendered social hierarchies.

IMO America is simply continuing its rapid retreat from a world in which gender might ever stop being enforced on a strictly hierarchical basis. Women continue to be spoken to and about as though we are frankly deserving of suffering, because we are considered to be (based on the simple fact of our existence as women) continually collaborating in and contributing to our own oppression, and thus at least partially responsible for everything we are made to endure. After all, if we didn't want things to be this way, surely our entire class would have bootstrapped into identification with a superior model by now.

I think the reason the gender hierarchy is perennially popular on the right AND left is that it maintains our society's warm, familial, centuries-long embrace of the idea that women are innately, inescapably inferior to men. And that's not just a brief summary of the patriarchy writ large; it's one of the most enduring foundations of the entire GOP platform, and the Trump campaign most of all.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


It really kind of pisses me off that there's this narrative that Americans shouldn't be the most highly taxed people on the planet. The military spending is so excessively high that it has to come from somewhere. Operating under the assumption that everything is the same with a reasonable liberal, western democracy of course you're going to have to be more highly taxed.

No politician no matter how hard they try can make 2+2=3. I'm sorry but the United States has a revenue problem and we need to stop apologizing for wanting to do the things people want to have happen and pay for it all.
posted by Talez at 7:47 AM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Cheeto Voldemort didn't say "hombres" (men), he said "hambres" (hungries)...this was one of the things my 1st year Spanish teacher told the class about how old westerns would get it wrong too.

Sooo....bad Cookie Monster? bad Hamburglar?
posted by brujita at 7:47 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Has the poll showing Evan McMullin leading the presidential race in Utah shown up here yet?
Yeah, it was presented three or four times in the previous thread.
posted by dfan at 7:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


It used to be run by the league of Women voters, Bill Clinton put an end to that.
Wait, huh? The League of Women Voters pulled out in October of '88, with a scathing "League Refuses to Help Perpetrate a Fraud" press release, after the Bush and Dukakis campaigns tried to hamstring them with a bunch of secretly-negotiated "stringent, unyielding and self-serving demands". Was Clinton involved?
posted by roystgnr at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


The Such A Nasty Woman comment, probably came at the moment Trump realized a woman he admires, (Hillary Clinton,) does not admire him, and will never be engaged by him. Trump realized all at once, he is out of the Washington social circuit, and he is not getting any more invites, anywhere.
posted by Oyéah at 7:52 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump "realized"

Optimist much?
posted by Namlit at 7:53 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


you are pulling the covers over your head if you don't believe that the coming Clinton administration will try to make the "Grand Bargain" legislative capstone of her presidency.

But I think it's going to be harder for her to pull this off than it would otherwise, substantially because the Sanders campaign (and related cultural forces) have pushed her to speak as she did in the debate.

Obama was advised by anti-social-security people too, and he wasn't able to make cuts, or at least not the big cuts he wanted.

I think the best thing that can actually happen in our timeline* is to get Hillary to make promises right up front that she intends to preserve social security or expand it - that makes it much harder, politically, for her to preside over cuts, even if she doesn't do what she promises.

Also, in re the speeches - my feeling is that Hillary is beholden to a lot of different constituencies. Wall Street is among them, but so are ordinary voters, union members, immigrant communities, etc. I would prefer it if she weren't so closely tied with Wall Street, but in this timeline I think the deal is that her non-Wall Street constituents also have power, which we need to use by organizing. If Bernie's people actually create an ongoing movement, for instance, this will be an important way to hold her feet to the fire.

Clinton can be shitty on foreign policy, basically, because people in Honduras and Syria and Iran, etc, don't vote in US Presidential elections. (Which is, when you think about it, total garbage - someone can bomb you and fuck up your country, and you have absolutely zero say.) It's not that elections have magical powers, or otherwise we'd have better presidents. But mass organizing can help us compete with Wall Street.

*"In this timeline" is how I find myself thinking of things that are actually possible/likely - partly because I keep thinking "I wish I lived in the timeline where HC's depiction of herself on social media were true, that would be cool".
posted by Frowner at 7:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Nasty Woman: The Latest Fragrance
posted by nubs at 7:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


> Representative Bupkus (R-Podunk)

I think I've found my new sock puppet account name.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


Ugh. THREE national (pre-debate) polls in a row this morning just came out showing Trump ahead. They are, unsurprisingly, Rasmussen (well-known conservative bias) at Trump +3, USC Dornsife/LA Times (tracking poll, outlier all year) at Trump +0.6, and IBD/TIPP (tracking poll, outlier, but with a reputation for accuracy) at Trump +1.

I realize there's reason to look at all of them skeptically but even assuming they're all on the far side of the error margin is worrisome.

Not over until it's over ...
posted by kyrademon at 7:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


....The media largely structures its coverage around partisan disagreement. If a candidate’s own party won’t defend something he says, journalists treat that statement as illegitimate. Which means that Trump, by refusing to commit to respect the election outcome, has just given the media an excuse to savage him in the days to come.

For months now, Hillary Clinton has been arguing that Trump represents a threat to American democracy. Tonight he made her point more effectively than she could ever have dreamed. He’s handed the media and his fellow Republicans the rope with which to hang him. They’re going to do so with glee.
Trump's Worst Answer Will Also Be His Downfall
posted by y2karl at 7:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


"puppet" "no, you're the puppet!"

For their next opening skit, I hope Saturday Night Live are on the phone right now to the Jim Henson Workshop and/or the cast of Avenue Q.


Or just call Greg Nog...
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump doesn't admire women except in terms of their fuckability. Period. That is a big part of his problem, really. Claiming that he admires Hillary is ridiculous—he doesn't even fully understand what she is, a woman has no place in his worldview except as a sex object.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


Did anyone notice, the President of the Philippines just aligned with China, saying he is through with the US?
posted by Oyéah at 7:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


So I'm trying to browse and enjoy the #TrumpBookReport on Twitter, but what's ruining it is many stupid Trump supporters have found out about it and are including the tag in some really insane anti-Hillary posts. Apparently they actually think that when Hillary talked about America's nuclear response procedures last night she was "revealing Top Secret information to Russia." As if the four minute response time was not something everyone has known for decades.
posted by dnash at 8:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]



Did anyone notice, the President of the Philippines just aligned with China, saying he is through with the US?


The same President of the Philippines who called Obama a very very rude name recently? I'm going to guess that no one is really that shocked?
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Watch Trump, watch Hillary when she speaks. At times he admires, you can see it, then his humanity passes and he goes into his identity. He probably covets her intellect, and knowledge.
posted by Oyéah at 8:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Did anyone notice, the President of the Philippines just aligned with China, saying he is through with the US?

Client state of one imperialist power switches to another, I guess. Things seem really worrying there too, though - part of the same general fascistification of everything that's happening lately.
posted by Frowner at 8:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


The president of the Phillipines is a madman, he's going to do all kinds of crazy and terrible shit. He is their version of Trump, except he won his election. He is so, so bad. We're only just beginning to see the extent of how bad he is going to be for the people of the Phillipines. It's heartrending, but not really on topic in here.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [60 favorites]


So it's weird when I see in my twitter feed that Conway used Al Gore as justification for Trump's non-acceptance of the result.

Hell, I ended up drawn into conversation with a dude at the bar last night who was grumbling that MSNBC was "obsessing" over the Trump refusing to concede thing, and he used the same justification.

It wasn't until it was too late that I learned he was a Bernie Bro. I just asked him to back up any claim he was making, and after five minutes he just shrugged and said "whatever, I'm out" and left.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:04 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Seriously, if we have a really weird, really close election where Trump loses in a similar manner to how Gore lost and a lot of stuff seems fucked up and dodgy, I will not be mad if he doesn't want to accept the result.

If, OTOH, we have an election that isn't bizarre and close and marred by whatever the 2016 version of hanging chads are, and things don't seem fucked up and dodgy, then this analogy falls apart.
posted by Frowner at 8:06 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


This would be the same President Rodrigo Duterte whose main domestic policy is for citizens to organize death squads that summarily execute alleged drug dealers, so I'm fine with the idea that we just don't see eye to eye.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Nasty Woman: The Latest Fragrance
"Because a woman's place is in the kitchen... of a restaurant she independently owns and operates."
And that's how I got tea all over my computer screen....
posted by mochapickle at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


You know, next year there will be a lot of "Actually Trump was right about..." hot trash takes from both the left and the right, and some of them will be justified though most of them won't be. Here's my first attempt at one (god help me).

Trump is right about not being fully to blame for not paying taxes.

We can morally judge business people who take advantage of weak regulations all we want. We should in fact shame them and call them out and hashtag the Martin Shkreli's and Epipens until their stock price goes down temporarily. But that's us, the public. For politicians, who could change the laws, or at least attempt to change the laws, to place full blame on the individuals who take advantage of those loopholes is kind of a bait and switch. Yes, Clinton has that on her agenda now. Yes, the republicans have blockaded any chance at corporate tax or any other kind of reform and should bear the majority of the blame.

But! Many people on the left would rather see the actions of corporations and CEOs only as "Crimes" despite the fact that the lack of effective legislative governance is to blame for many exploitative and predatory activities in the business world. You can't snark shame an entire industry or social class into being nice or paying their fair share, and you can't just elect Bernie Sanders and have him wave a magic socialism wand over capitalism and turn all the jackolanterns into pumpkins or something like that metaphor got away from me sorry, I'm saying you have to enact laws in Congress which means making deals, taking incremental steps that are far from perfect, strong-arming or hand-holding folks in both parties, doing whatever it takes to make that sweet hot sausage.

Anyway, so Trump is right in so far as it is people like HRC who do need to step up to stop bad guys like Trump. And while I'm only half-hopeful she'll commit to do it, and doubtful that she'll be able do it, I am 100% sure she is very very much the right person to try.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Hugh Hewitt: "I think Donald Trump won 14 out of 15 rounds."

Da fuck was he watching?


It's just awkward phrasing for Trump taking 14 headshots like he was playing counterstrike against a Korean teenager.
posted by srboisvert at 8:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Eric Tucker: Fewer election observers from the Justice Dept. at the polls
"We have been doing everything we can through our monitoring program to be able to be as effective as we can be" in ensuring fair elections, said Vanita Gupta, head of the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division. She said voters won't detect any difference in the federal presence this year from the 2012 election.

But, Gupta added, there's no way to "sugar coat" the impact of the court's 2013 Shelby County v. Holder opinion, which invalidated a cornerstone of the 1965 voting law.
[...]
Most of the staffers will be so-called election monitors, who have less authority than federally trained election observers and rely on the cooperation of local officials to do their jobs. Federal observers enjoy unfettered access inside polling places on Election Day and cannot be removed. Justice Department officials say they've been working with local election officials to secure cooperation for their monitors.

The federal observer program has provided an important safeguard during previous elections, especially in places that tried to suppress the votes of blacks, Latinos and other minorities, said Kristen Clarke, president of the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law.

In past elections, for example, observers were sent to Greensboro, Alabama, after white election officials tried to prevent black voters from entering polling places and to Pike County, Georgia, after an after-hours voter registration session was open to whites only, the Justice Department says.
More evidence that Shelby v. Holder is turning out to be the major force in enabling the worst attacks on our democracy in recent history, which is all according to design, if you're John Roberts et al. That it is a stain on both conservatism and SCOTUS in regards to their willingness to see all Americans as equally deserving of basic civil rights seems to be merely an inconvenience.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [37 favorites]


But mass organizing can help us compete with Wall Street.

Or what Frowner said much better than me.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:11 AM on October 20, 2016


It's just awkward phrasing for Trump taking 14 headshots like he was playing counterstrike against a Korean teenager.

I've read this comment like 10 times and it still makes no goddamn sense to me. Am I an Old?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:11 AM on October 20, 2016


Talez: "It really kind of pisses me off that there's this narrative that Americans shouldn't be the most highly taxed people on the planet. The military spending is so excessively high that it has to come from somewhere. Operating under the assumption that everything is the same with a reasonable liberal, western democracy of course you're going to have to be more highly taxed."

Also, I don't think that it is the case that Americans are highly taxed compared to most other industrialized nations. By one measure, tax receipts as % of GDP, the US is at 26.9% versus, say, Japan at 28.3%, Canada at 32.2%, UK at 34.4%, and the OECD average of 34.8% (never mind places like France or Denmark at close to 50%). Sure, there are those that are lower like Australia (25.8%), and Taiwan (12.4%) but most of the countries lower than the US are either real small and/or still developing. International tax burden comparisons can, of course, be fraught but I'm not aware of any solid data that puts the US tax burden higher than most comparable countries.

I think the biggest difference in taxation between the US and, say, European countries is not that the US collects a lot of tax but rather it returns comparatively little back to taxpayers in the form of government spending/subsidies (i.e.: Americans don't really feel like they get a lot of value from the taxes they pay because it's going to Raytheon or whatever).
posted by mhum at 8:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


Bad Hombre and Nasty Woman.

They're cops. They fight crime.

Wednesdays on NBC at 9/8 Central.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:12 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


Ijeoma Oluo (@IjeomaOluo)
10/19/16, 10:35 PM
Moderator: SURPRISE! Make an unplanned speech now
Hillary: I don't know that word.
Mod: What?
Hillary: Here's my awesome speech
posted by prefpara at 8:12 AM on October 20, 2016 [86 favorites]


I've read this comment like 10 times and it still makes no goddamn sense to me. Am I an Old?

It helps if you think of "winning" as "earning," and "rounds" as in 5.56mm. It's still a nasty image, though.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:14 AM on October 20, 2016


Yeah, when Wallace did his smug little thing about how he was going to make the candidates give closing remarks even though they hadn't prepared any, I literally rolled my eyes and said out loud, "What are you talking about? Of course Hillary has closing remarks prepared." Did he really think that she didn't have closing remarks chambered and ready to go just because there weren't supposed to be any? It's called contingency planning, it's kinda her specialty.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [74 favorites]


What gets me about the "such a nasty woman" comment is that it wasn't in response to a nasty remark. It might have made sense after she said Putin wanted a puppet. It might have made sense after she referred to his talk about blue collar workers as "crocodile tears." But that's not what he thought was nasty. He took issue - and you could see it in his face - when she said that she would be paying more social security, and so would he if he couldn't find a way to get out of it. She even said it with a smile. He's already on record bragging that he gets out of paying taxes for everything he can. He seems to consider it a point of pride. So her comment, while absolutely meant to be an attack, was also exactly the kind of thing that people do with their friends as gentle ribbing. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a joke, but the way she said it -- to me, it felt a bit like she was joking. Joshing him a bit.

I am a big fan of Hillary, I voted for her in 2008, but I think the reason I still can't quite adore her the way I do Elizabeth Warren or Ann Richards, is she always strikes me as pretty humorless. She doesn't joke much that I've seen, and when she does, it often falls flat, like she's not accustomed to it. So for me, that interaction really called attention to itself. She made a little joke at his expense. And it landed. And it was the best kind of joke, because it was funny because it was true.

And that's what got to him. He can brush off insults and attacks, but he can't bear to be laughed at. He's like every petty guy I've met who thinks they're funny and that women aren't, and when a woman makes a joke, they need to top it, pretend they didn't hear it (and steal it, if it's a crowded enough room), or put her in her place. To me the interaction really felt like all the think-pieces we used to see about "are women really funny?" with male comedians saying that comedy isn't attractive, so attractive women can't ever really land it, or that when a woman makes jokes about men she's mean-spirited. It's just another layer of misogyny, and it's quite possibly the kind of thing that taught her early on not to make jokes in the first place.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the moment, but it definitely touched a nerve for me.
posted by Mchelly at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [103 favorites]


Mchelly— I thought the nasty woman comment was in response to her saying that he would try to avoid the tax increases she was proposing.
posted by Static Vagabond at 8:17 AM on October 20, 2016


Mefi's own jscalzi on the debate(s): [H]er real skill was in getting Donald Trump to self-own, debate after debate.
posted by zakur at 8:18 AM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


My main takeaway about the format and moderator of this debate was that, had it been a normal Republican candidate debating Clinton, Chris Wallace's typical Fox News spin on debate question topics and biased phrasing would have been total slow-pitch softball, designed to allow the conservative to hit it out of the park again and again - but Trump is so thoroughly unhinged and ignorant, even of traditional conservative and Tea Party talking points, that he was incapable of taking advantage of the repeated easy lobs Wallace was trying to send his way.

Trump was so unhinged he kept interrupting Wallace's trying to pitch him softball questions.
posted by Gelatin at 8:18 AM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


rabbitrabbit: It's just awkward phrasing for Trump taking 14 headshots like he was playing counterstrike against a Korean teenager.

I've read this comment like 10 times and it still makes no goddamn sense to me. Am I an Old?


Counterstrike is a first person shooter game (you aim at and shoot other human players in the game). Korean teens are known for being pretty adept at online games because of their dedicated, precise practice (and because of the ubiquity of internet cafes in Korea dedicated to online gaming.) Rounds is slang for bullets, so the joke was "taking 14 out of 15 rounds" really meant he was shot 14 times by another really adept player.
posted by bluecore at 8:18 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I had to...
posted by Nasty Woman at 8:19 AM on October 20, 2016 [166 favorites]


Mchelly— I thought the nasty woman comment was in response to her saying that he would try to avoid the tax increases she was proposing.

Yes, exactly. But she said it jokingly. And it's something he is on record as doing. It wasn't what I would have called a nasty comment, especially compared to other parts of the debate.
posted by Mchelly at 8:20 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


What happens when a stupid debate comment becomes a thing and you piss off an entire demographic, some of whom are creative. Keep in mind that the debate was last night. That's a pretty quick turnaround. I'm sure there are others if this person was able to crank that out that quickly.
posted by prepmonkey at 8:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I am a big fan of Hillary, I voted for her in 2008, but I think the reason I still can't quite adore her the way I do Elizabeth Warren or Ann Richards, is she always strikes me as pretty humorless. She doesn't joke much that I've seen, and when she does, it often falls flat, like she's not accustomed to it.

Wonder why a woman who has had her every statement taken out of context, blown out of proportion and treated as proof she's the devil for thirty years would hesitate to use a rhetorical device so apt to be misinterpreted.
posted by winna at 8:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [106 favorites]


realDonaldTrump: Why didn't Hillary Clinton announce that she was inappropriately given the debate questions - she secretly used them! Crooked Hillary. [real]

Clearly Donald thinks it's impossible for anyone to appear poised and prepared for a debate without having been given the questions in advance.
posted by littlegreen at 8:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [34 favorites]


Hillary has been owning the Orange One in all the debates, but this one in particular was just a work of art that will probably be talked about for years to come.

I've been on record here for a long time as not being a fan of Hillary for various reasons (Wall Street ties, centrist, political dynasties) and I was a big Bernie supporter who decided to reluctantly vote for the lesser evil once Hillary secured the nomination.

But now, I want to go on record as being excited, happy, and proud to vote for Hillary. I hope she keeps up the "Give 'em hell, Hillary" attitude and follows through with the planks she adopted from Bernie, but even if she doesn't, I will still be happy to vote for her over that miserable excuse for a human being. I always vote on Election Day, even though my state has early voting, and I can't wait to cast my ballot for Hillary Rodham Clinton.

The first African-American and the first woman in the White House, back to back. You can't say we don't live in historic times.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [63 favorites]


Yeah— agreed, it was a quip from Hillary rather then a dagger, I just think he doesn't have the capabilities to deal with even that.

It felt like his theme was "I would ABSOLUTELY be a great American if only you made laws to force me to be, until then, I'll keep buying my steel and avoiding my fair share"
posted by Static Vagabond at 8:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


So Donald's accusing Hillary of having these debate's questions ahead of time now.

Sore loser. SAD!
posted by Talez at 8:24 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Far upthread, the League of Women Voters' statement of withdrawal from debate organizing was linked. I found this really revealing:

Neuman said that the campaigns presented the League with their debate agreement on
September 28, two weeks before the scheduled debate. The campaigns' agreement was negotiated "behind closed doors" and vas presented to the League as "a done deal," she said, its 16 pages of conditions not subject to negotiation.

Most objectionable to the League, Neuman said, were conditions in the agreement that gave the campaigns unprecedented control over the proceedings. Neuman called "outrageous" the campaigns' demands that they control the selection of questioners, the composition of the audience, hall access for the press and other issues.


And here we are.

Also, because I am an ignoramus, I did not know that the LoWV had organized the debates in the past, and find myself surprised that a group specifically of women - however nonpartisan or middle of the road or whatever - was allowed to do something like this. Could you imagine a Group of Women Anythings being permitted to run a comparable event today? People would shut that down right quick for being some kind of feminazi play.
posted by Frowner at 8:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


Think of her sense of humor as a huge, gorgeous, fragrant, bright orange flower, blooming in a greenhouse that almost no one gets to visit. It's tempting to feel sorry for the poor lonely flower, but the flower doesn't care.
posted by amtho at 8:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [72 favorites]


I think the reason I still can't quite adore her the way I do Elizabeth Warren or Ann Richards, is she always strikes me as pretty humorless.

Did you see her reaction on Ellen? She's pretty charming.

Hillary is known to be a pretty private person, and her whole career she's been in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't position for her leadership, opinions, voice, hairstyle, pantsuits et al. Hit from all angles for decades, I suspect most people might come off as a little humorless.

As her win is becoming more certain, I expect we will see more of her nature coming out.
posted by mochapickle at 8:28 AM on October 20, 2016 [36 favorites]


asockpuppet: "Everytime he says 'WRONG' I imagine John McLaughlin spinning a half turn in his grave."

McLaughlin, at least, had a sense of humor about himself. I'd been wondering if Alec Baldwin had kept in mind Dana Carvey's then-widely-known portrayal of McLaughlin, though in any case he's pitch-perfect Trump with it. If you need a good laugh, McLaughlin meeting Carvey is a fun read. And was written 24 years ago, eek. I remember being in high school and us kids dropping "WRONG" like that. Best was in Current Events class, where our very staid and proper teacher occasionally had us watch The McLaughlin Group. He had to stop after one class where we puddled in uncontrollable laughter after a few "WRONG!"

Re: the debate, chalk me up as another woman who's been genuinely inspired by how Clinton has handled all of this.
posted by fraula at 8:28 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


People that know her well say that she actually has an excellent but very dry sense of humor and that actually she's hilarious.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:28 AM on October 20, 2016 [44 favorites]


I personally don't give a damn about my leaders having a sense of humor, or at least in the sense of "making jokes". Hillary has proven she can take a joke at her expense, which is good enough for me.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:29 AM on October 20, 2016 [28 favorites]


Clearly Donald thinks it's impossible for anyone to appear poised and prepared for a debate without having been given the questions in advance.

Coach McGuirk has the ultimate commentary on this phenomenon:
Basically, memorizing something is cheating. You knew the answer before the test was given. And so by taking the test and saying you learned that stuff...
posted by palindromic at 8:29 AM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


Yeah amtho, I have really gotten the sense over the course of this campaign that almost nobody has actually seen Real Hillary for decades now, because in order to weather the political climate she lives in she's had to inhabit a persona that embodies only very limited aspects of herself. I think this is why people who've worked closely with her describe her as being a much warmer, more likable person than she is usually portrayed as being: much of what makes her likable also makes her vulnerable, so when she's in public she needs to tone her humanity way down and focus on projecting intelligence, competence, and a commitment to whatever political causes she's trying to champion.

I'm already looking forward to Lame Duck Hillary in 2024, in a sense. Can't wait to see what she's like when she can finally, finally stop giving so many fucks about what everyone thinks of her.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:30 AM on October 20, 2016 [49 favorites]


I think we could run a GoFundMe to buy Uncle Joe a brand new Z06 track-ready Vette.

Hell, I'm in to tempt him with a new Ford GT. It's only $450k, although the oil changes will run ya.
posted by spitbull at 8:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


He is always winning in breakfast polls.
posted by spitbull at 8:38 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think we could run a GoFundMe to buy Uncle Joe a brand new Z06 track-ready Vette.

there was already an indiegogo fundraiser to buy Joe Biden a Trans Am
posted by miguelcervantes at 8:38 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


There were so many times during the debate that I wanted her to go off-script, but I know that's just not what she does. Still, it would have been so satisfying to have her pause for a second and then drop her guarded body language and turn to face him and say, "So you're telling me that somehow it's my fault you bought Chinese steel because I didn't stop you from doing it - but now you're this alleged champion of American Made(tm)? You simply can't have it both ways, Donald. When you lose this election are you going to stop buying Chinese steel then?"

actually what I really wanted to hear was: "So you're telling me that somehow it's my fault you bought Chinese steel because I didn't stop you from doing it - does that mean I need to stand beside you at all times to keep you from sexually assaulting women as well?"
posted by komara at 8:38 AM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


There was that piece from the 90s that had been linked earlier, where HRC was very earnest and emotional with the reporter and when the piece came out the reporter basically ridiculed her for her passion.
posted by zutalors! at 8:38 AM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


I am a big fan of Hillary, I voted for her in 2008, but I think the reason I still can't quite adore her the way I do Elizabeth Warren or Ann Richards, is she always strikes me as pretty humorless. She doesn't joke much that I've seen, and when she does, it often falls flat, like she's not accustomed to it.

One of the downsides of democracy is that potential leaders need to sell themselves, especially during campaigns. This gives an advantage to naturally gregarious types who can glad-hand and joke and slap people on the back and basically act like the stereotypical insurance salesman. Trouble is, with few exceptions they aren't always the folks with the best skills and temperament to actually lead and govern.

Bill Clinton was great at it. Obama too. Both of them have an ability to make anyone they're talking to feel important and worthy. Bush Jr took the opposite approach and brought himself down to the level of the "regular" folks he interacted with, but that was effective in its own way.

Hillary seems more reserved and naturally introverted. There's no doubt she has the skills to govern, but she lacks the innate skills to get elected based on "likability".
posted by rocket88 at 8:39 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah no on the Trans Am. Joe Biden wants a fast car.

/tease
posted by spitbull at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think it's interesting (although a bit traumatic) that for the first time in the context of a presidential election I can see all the macro and microaggressions I experience as a woman being deployed in real-time.

I am pretty sure that thirty seconds into the first debate I would have completely lost my temper and said any number of regrettable things before the froth from my foaming mouth choked me to silence.

I do not know how she deals with it. It is really a master class on keeping one's temper in the face of overwhelming provocation.
posted by winna at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2016 [69 favorites]


Both of them have an ability to make anyone they're talking to feel important and worthy

I think she very much does this one on one.
posted by zutalors! at 8:40 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Reactions from 8 undecided Millenial voters in Florida from Politico.

Some quotes:
“I don’t know, she seemed arrogant,” Rodger said. “I just couldn’t relate to her.”
[...]
“Really, it comes down to who’s going to do less damage,” said Monica, a Latina student who might not vote at all. “Of course, Trump degrades women and minorities. But I don’t trust her. I don’t really know why. Maybe the emails?”
[...]
“There’s something shady about her, something that isn’t genuine. I can’t put my finger on it,” said Natalie Dominguez, a 26-year-old recruiter.
[...]
He’s tempted to vote for her and then oppose her in 2020, but she just bugs him.
[...]
he thinks Clinton is a robotic political machine, saying whatever she thinks will get her elected. He said she just doesn’t feel like a leader.
[...]
“I’m torn, because I’m not going to feel good about voting for either one of them,” Kelli said. “I might not vote. I don’t want to do the lesser of two evils.”
Y'all are bad and should feel bad.
posted by Justinian at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [125 favorites]


Although personally I see Uncle Joe stepping up to an Aston Martin or a MacLaren.
posted by spitbull at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2016




Commenter CrunchyFrog on Lawyers, Guns & Money on GOP accusations of voter fraud:
Regarding the black voter busing scheme. Let’s think about this logically (not possible for the GOP, I know, but bear with me). If I were running such a scheme what would I have to do to make an effective dent in the results? As a starting point, a lot of Colorado wingnuts think that Obama won there in 2012 by cheating. He won by 138k votes, so let’s use 140k votes as a starting point. So let’s say I have a bus full of black voters – say 66 people (common capacity limit on school buses). So if every bus is filled to near capacity that’s about 2200 bus-visits to the polling stations. How many polling stations can a given bus hit in a day? Well, your typical precinct has 2-3 people checking voters in and each one processes about 2 per minute, so that’s over 30 minutes just to check in (of course there will be other voters, too), plus time to drive between precincts. Seriously, if you are counting on more than 10 precincts per bus per day you’re going to be disappointed. So that’s 220 buses chartered for the day, and a total of about 14k fraudulent voters.

Holy freaking crap. The logistical problems of arranging that many fraudulent voters, ALL of whom are risking felony sentences and NONE of whom have ever talked about it to anyone. Now plan to arrange for 140k fake registrations using the matching photos for each person and arrange it so that the manager of each bus makes sure that every voter gets the exact fake ID for each precinct. And NO MISTAKES – remember no one has ever been caught doing this because Democrats, who are inept in government, are utter geniuses when it comes to vote fraud. So that means there NEVER can be a situation where a fake voter encounters a registrar who says “Hey, I live on that street, I’ve never seen you” or similar.

By the way, the absolutely easiest logistical part of this scheme is arranging for photo ID. Assuming you have that many people willing to commit felonies for whatever you are paying them and have arranged everything else in detail, getting fake photo IDs for them is simple and routine. So photo ID laws do absolutely jack shit to stop massive vote fraud – but of course that wasn’t their real intention, was it?
posted by palindromic at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [120 favorites]


Perhaps her "likability" problem has more do do with the 30-year right-wing hate campaign against her and her husband, rather than some lack of innate skill.

Re: her sense of humor - I find it hard to believe that a person without a sense of humor would go on Between Two Ferns.
posted by zakur at 8:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [42 favorites]


Just realized that the "Fifty Presidents of the United States" song that future schoolchildren will learn will sound awesome when they get to the "Bush Clinton Bush Obama Clinton" part.
posted by DanSachs at 8:47 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


I know he was probably only taking a page out of his notes but he is visibly furious and I'm filled with 𝕾𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖋𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖉𝖊

I know schadenfreude is attractive but still, can we keep sex dreams out of the thread?
posted by Talez at 8:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]




Just realized that the "Fifty Presidents of the United States" song that future schoolchildren will learn will sound awesome when they get to the "Bush Clinton Bush Obama Clinton" part.

Not if someone makes a band called "Fifty Presidents of the United States" and scores a #1 hit before the 50th president is elected.
posted by Talez at 8:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


If Trump gets elected will the font on every MetaFilter comment suddenly turn Gothic?
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Nate Silver: Clinton Probably Finished Off Trump Last Night:
I’m not sure I need to tell you this, but Hillary Clinton is probably going to be the next president. It’s just a question of what “probably” means.

Clinton went into the final presidential debate on Wednesday with a lead of about 7 percentage points over Donald Trump. And according to the only two scientific polls we’ve seen, voters thought that Clinton won the debate. Occasionally, the initial reaction to a debate can differ from the way it’s perceived days later. But in this case, the morning headlines, which focused overwhelmingly on Trump’s refusal to say whether he’ll accept the election results, are potentially worse for Trump than the debate itself. In YouGov’s poll of debate watchers, 68 percent of voters said they think the candidates should pledge to accept the results of the election.

There are less than three weeks left in the campaign, and there are no more guaranteed opportunities for Trump or Clinton to command a huge public audience, as they do at the conventions and the debates (although, they’ll get plenty of attention, of course). Millions of people have already voted. Trump has had a significant advertising deficit, and an even more significant deficit in terms of his turnout operation. He’ll probably spend a significant chunk of the remaining news cycles quarreling over his contention that the election is rigged, and with the numerous women who have accused him of sexual assault. He doesn’t have an obvious — or even a not-so-obvious — path to the presidency.
posted by palindromic at 8:50 AM on October 20, 2016


If Trump gets elected will the font on every MetaFilter comment suddenly turn Gothic?

Comic Sans!
posted by mochapickle at 8:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


"No sense of humor" is notoriously what men say about women whose jokes they don't get or, sometimes, even notice. it's embarrassing. For them.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [124 favorites]


When all this is over I am going to claim my rightful place for introducing Evan McMullin to the blue. Everyone mocked me but here we are!

I get that we all love an underdog, but it is a mystery to me why the Egg-man gets so much Mefi love. He's a former CIA guy who then worked as an investment banker at Goldman Sachs. He's anti-choice, and wants to keep Guantanamo open. He might be amusing, but he's as conservative as they come.
posted by anastasiav at 8:52 AM on October 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


If Trump gets elected will the font on every MetaFilter comment suddenly turn Gothic?

If we're still here after Trump's Department of Lèse-majesté and First Amendment Protection is through with us all.
posted by Talez at 8:52 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


If Trump gets elected will the font on every MetaFilter comment suddenly turn Gothic

The cast of SNL will turn to look at the audience and it will ALL BE NAZIS.
posted by Artw at 8:52 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clearly Donald thinks it's impossible for anyone to appear poised and prepared for a debate without having been given the questions in advance.

They were both given the topics in advance, as he well knows. But as one of the post-mortem articles on Vox pointed out, trump all but admitted spending the day of the debate watching cable news instead of preparing (or imagining that he was preparing...).
posted by Gelatin at 8:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]




When all this is over I am going to claim my rightful place for introducing Evan McMullin to the blue. Everyone mocked me but here we are!

I get that we all love an underdog, but it is a mystery to me why the Egg-man gets so much Mefi love. He's a former CIA guy who then worked as an investment banker at Goldman Sachs. He's anti-choice, and wants to keep Guantanamo open. He might be amusing, but he's as conservative as they come.


Yeah. this was cute for a while, but this guy doesn't really need any more attention. "he's not Trump" is faint praise at best.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:56 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


#10 steps forward.

Now we're at double digits of women who have come forward publicly.
posted by Talez at 8:56 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


"No sense of humor" is notoriously what men say about women whose jokes they don't get or, sometimes, even notice. it's embarrassing. For them.

Oh lord if I had a penny for every time a man has clearly thought I was stupid or insane because he didn't expect a woman to be making a joke and believed I was serious I'd be richer than Warren Buffett.
posted by winna at 8:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [83 favorites]


Hillary seems more reserved and naturally introverted. There's no doubt she has the skills to govern, but she lacks the innate skills to get elected based on "likability".

I honestly think that this is mostly down to misogyny. Friendly and personable is a good look on a man, but women can't project that persona if they want to be taken seriously. Of course, women are expected to be more emotional than men (setting aside the nested hypocrisy of that expectation for a moment) so when they tone that down people think there's something wrong with them. It's a shitty double bind.

A lot of what are portrayed as Clinton's personality flaws I see as having more to do with her trying to become the first woman president. She has to walk a very fine line, and she has to do it under the million-watt spotlight of hostile scrutiny, and she can never turn it off. Men have a lot more freedom in terms of how they choose to portray themselves, because men are people. Women are women, and everything they do is seen through that lens. The test she faces is not "Is this OK in a leader?" the way it would be for a man, but rather "Is this OK in a woman leader?"

Like most women trying to break into prestigious male-dominated fields, it's not enough for her to be just as good as her male peers. She has to be much, much better—and she has to do it while adhering to a whole extra set of frankly bullshit standards that male leaders aren't expected to follow.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [80 favorites]


McMuffin is like a cute little panda cub. Cute because it's non-threatening, even though a full-grown bear is a godless killing machine.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


On NPR's The Takeaway a few minutes ago, they were following up with a previously undecided voter (*eyeroll*) who had been leaning toward Trump. Post-debate, they're leaning toward Trump a little bit more, because, they said, "Despite his flaws, at least he'll be something different."

It beggars the imagination to realize that people like this exist.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 8:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [25 favorites]


The whole Trump theme of "I'm blaming you for not forcing me to do the right thing" is like some 101 Emotional Labor Manipulation/Sexism stuff. Him believing that it's other people's responsibility to make him obey the law, or act ethically, that as a grown man, he has no responsibilities to control his own actions--ye gods.

I mean, that's taking Man-Baby to formerly unacknowledged levels. That's like "I only only have a stinky butt because you don't wipe me" levels of abrogation.
posted by emjaybee at 8:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [78 favorites]


> "It felt like his theme was 'I would ABSOLUTELY be a great American if only you made laws to force me to be, until then, I'll keep buying my steel and avoiding my fair share'"

Which is, incidentally, such an ass-backward argument for handing him the presidency. "I will use whatever power I am given to do whatever I please and enrich myself by any means available, no matter who it hurts, unless I am stopped by outside forces!" "How can we prevent this?" "Give MUCH more power to me so I can use it to voluntarily stop myself, of course!" [fake quotes, obviously]
posted by kyrademon at 9:00 AM on October 20, 2016 [36 favorites]


Like others I've been pondering a lot of big picture thoughts during this election. Unfortunately Trump, man of little substance and man of toxic pathologies has held sway over the discourse whether he intends to or not.

It's been mentioned in threads here and elsewhere, though without much play that one of the things missing from this election is discussions about climate change. Understandable considering the state of political discourse in the US right now and I'm not blaming the Clinton campaign for not going there. The priority was and is to make sure that Trump and his Trumpism does not gain power.

Thing is climate change and the consequences are going to effect EVERYTHING. If anything is going to happen to combat and mitigate it's effects it has to be the lens that all policy is seen through, especially the economy. It's now not just about changing to stop what's causing it but dealing with the physical consequences at local, national and global levels. It's a massive destabilizing force that is here and is going to get worse whether we ignore it or not.

I honestly haven't looked into what Clinton's stance and understanding of it is. However one of main reasons that I think Clinton is the exact right person for the job right now is that regardless of anything she has done or hasn't done she has shown the capacity for understanding big complex problems. She also has shown quite clearly that she is capable of listening to other people. She also has shown that positive or negative she knows the system she is working in. In this time, historically, this is needed if there is any hope of anything. Her connections to people and in depth understanding and experience with the global system is invaluable.

We are moving quite rapidly into an era of real global instability without any real historical experience to fall back on because nothing like this has ever happened in modern human history.

I really don't know if Clinton is up for it but I do think that she's one a very few people in the world that is in a position, has the necessary experience and dare I say temperament to be capable of doing and understanding what needs to be done.
posted by Jalliah at 9:00 AM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


Last night when we were going to sleep after the debate:

Me: [gets text] "Huh, who's that... oh, Hillary just texting me about how awesome she did."

Mr. Rabbit: "You know that's not ACTUALLY Hillary texting you, right?"

Me: "Yes, of course. But I like to think she's just my BFF sending a late-night text. Obama emails me sometimes too!"

Mr. Rabbit: "You know that he isn't REALLY the one emailing you, right?"

Me: "You are the enemy of all that is good and happy in the world. Why do you hate fun?"
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [78 favorites]


Yeah, of all the moral positions that Trump could have taken during the debate, "I will be the worst possible person you allow me to be" doesn't seem like the winningest.
posted by KathrynT at 9:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [42 favorites]


Dear Donald,

When Paul LePage is saying the comments you're making are stupid and to get over yourself it's time to move on.

Love,
The United States of America
posted by Talez at 9:04 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, of all the moral positions that Trump could have taken during the debate, "I will be the worst possible person you allow me to be" doesn't seem like the winningest.

refreshingly honest, though!
posted by entropicamericana at 9:05 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


every time a man has clearly thought I was stupid or insane because he didn't expect a woman to be making a joke and believed I was serious

A friend's husband is That Guy. My wife tries to avoid conversation with him because every time she makes a joke or sarcastic quip, the response is, "well, actually..." as if he needs to correct her obviously-mistaken belief.

He is the worst mansplaining blowhard (and, yes, a Republican; just saying) and my eyes nearly roll out of my head at least once every time I'm around him.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:05 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Obama emails me sometimes too!"


My favorite thing is when Michelle Obama emails me and my name is in the subject line. :D :D :D
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:06 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


More on #10
Virginia said she was also there to support the other women who were courageous enough to come forward. She also said that no one had asked her to come forward and that many people actually entreated her to keep quiet because Trump would likely brand her a liar and a “nasty woman.”
#REKT
posted by Talez at 9:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


It boggles my mind that no one in Trump's campaign has told him that tweeting complaints (again) about how Clinton must have cheated (again) is a flat-out admission that he lost the debate (again).
posted by Gelatin at 9:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Skipping ahead a bit to note: I threw this up on Redbubble; will donate any proceeds to HRC or to Planned Parenthood if for some reason people buy them after the election.

This fucking year, guys.
posted by nonasuch at 9:10 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I hope this has not already been posted and I apologize that it's a twitter video, but this bit where Trump rips his notes up angrily and looks like he's trying not to cry as a smiling Hillary crosses the stage at the end to shake Wallace's hand is exploding a bit. Best tag I saw: "Alpha my ass."
posted by spitbull at 9:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [39 favorites]


How hackers got into Podesta's and Powell's Gmail accounts.

Looks like old fashioned phishing. TWO FACTOR YOUR ACCOUNTS PEOPLE.
posted by Talez at 9:12 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know he was probably only taking a page out of his notes but he is visibly furious and I'm filled with 𝕾𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖋𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖉𝖊

Oh. Oh my. It's like that episode back when the Simpsons was good when you could see the individual frame in which Ralphie's heart broke. Except... raiders_its_beautiful.gif
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:12 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oddly enough, I find Hillary Clinton immensely likable. Serious, yes. Brilliant, certainly. A little cautious about revealing herself. Reminds me of my best friend Kate.
posted by Peach at 9:12 AM on October 20, 2016 [39 favorites]


I think the best thing that can actually happen in our timeline* is to get Hillary to make promises right up front that she intends to preserve social security or expand it - that makes it much harder, politically, for her to preside over cuts, even if she doesn't do what she promises.

except that the way she is going to "expand" SS is by taking some portion of payroll taxes and putting them into a "national 401k" plan that may double as a bail-out for all of the private 401k plans which are going to leave middle class workers retiring on social security plus peanuts.

the only way you could blocked a renewed push for a "grand bargain" is if Elisabeth Warren decides who the next Sec. of Treasury is going to be. It's personnel which will tell you *exactly* which way the Clinton administration is going to go. maybe Bernie got more than some rules changes, but I doubt it: we'll all see when she announces her appointments after the (presumed) victory. If Wall Street continues to rule Treasury then you will know. There are bound to be some token left advisor appointments, but it's the positions that have authority that are important. IMHO, Hillary has taken too many big checks from too many big business and financial interests for the answer to be in question and Bernie totally abdicated what could have been a powerful post-primary role.

PAY ATTENTION TO PERSONNEL, NOT RHETORIC.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:13 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


nonasuch you made me remember to donate to Planned Parenthood as well as Hillary this week. Thanks.
posted by spitbull at 9:14 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oddly enough, I find Hillary Clinton immensely likable

Me too. She just seems like a smart professional woman from my parents' generation.
posted by zutalors! at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


two-factor accounts

I have to say that among my few sharp criticisms of Hillary's operations is how on earth Podesta's and other key staff email accounts weren't locked down many months ago and hardened to within an inch of them having to do an eyeball scan to access it themselves. Or better still why they didn't sharply limit what they said on email even as recently as this summer. Given the history and the target on her back over this very broader framing (information security), as bullshit as much of it is, this was a worrisome oversight and I hope NOW they have learned and take these lessons to the White House.

Any common citizen who isn't already using two factor authentication wherever it's available (such as Apple ID and Gmail) is, at this point, walking around with a "hack me" sign taped to their back. For a campaign that has been dealing with email security as a core issue for years now, and that has to have known the slimeiness of their opposition, well.. my sysadmin/old school hacker mind is blown.
posted by spitbull at 9:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


If Trump gets elected will the font on every MetaFilter comment suddenly turn Gothic?

I'll just set up the server to Zalgo everything automatically.
posted by cortex at 9:22 AM on October 20, 2016 [44 favorites]


More racist voter-suppression tactics, this time from True the Vote, which already has a long history of trying to present themselves as innocent poll-watchers but are in fact Jim Crow tactics reborn.

They're not even trying to hide it.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:22 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah Peach, as an earnest, try-hard, introverted, intelligent (so they say) person who is a bit guarded and slow to open up to people, I actually really like Hillary a lot! She seems like my people. My people never get elected to things! We're not very good at popularity contests, and we tend to dislike them on principle, but we care about shit and we try our best to do a good job when we're given responsibility. I see some of myself in Hillary, and I really appreciate that someone is about to get elected president based on intelligence and hard work rather than on whether they'd make a good drinking buddy.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [36 favorites]


My mother, some of you may remember, is having a very difficult time and is just getting back into the swing of things following an attempted suicide with the rise of Trump one of the many reasons she stated when asked why. She lives in a relatively liberal little town in the south, but she feels surrounded by conservatives. I have told her that by being an older white lady whose friends all play tennis, she has inadvertently self-selected conservatives as friends. This has left her feeling incredibly lonely and just sure I'm lying to her when I say that Clinton has Got This. Anyway, she went to visit her tennis buddies today, who to a one are all Trumpists and barraged her with it, saying they wished they had bumper stickers (great ground game, Donny) and with one lady who had been on the fence (!) saying, "as soon as Hillary started talking about women's rights, I decided then and there that I was voting for Trump!" What. The. Fuck. Mama feels like she cannot voice her opinion without opprobrium, and all I can say is, "you have shitty friends." Which isn't helpful. This fucking election.
posted by thebrokedown at 9:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [36 favorites]


MeFi's own jscalzi's take on Why Clinton is Winning (One Reason, Anyway)
There’s the saying that one should not interrupt an enemy when he’s making a mistake; well, Clinton didn’t interrupt Trump, but she did prompt him, winding him up and then letting him spew, not only on the debate stage, but on Twitter and in rallies afterward. She wound him up and let him flail ineffectually at her, as if his onstage taunts and bluster were anything compared to what she’s put up with for over 30 years, but well aware how Trump grumbling that she was nasty or how he was going to put her in jail would play to the large majority of America that isn’t circling around in Trump’s ouroboros of denial. She positioned him to lie and lie again, not just about political subjects in general, but about what’s actually come out of his very own mouth. She made him make himself look like a fool, and she did it without breaking a sweat.
posted by Gelatin at 9:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


When all this is over I am going to claim my rightful place for introducing Evan McMullin to the blue. Everyone mocked me but here we are!

I get that we all love an underdog, but it is a mystery to me why the Egg-man gets so much Mefi love. He's a former CIA guy who then worked as an investment banker at Goldman Sachs. He's anti-choice, and wants to keep Guantanamo open. He might be amusing, but he's as conservative as they come.

Yeah. this was cute for a while, but this guy doesn't really need any more attention. "he's not Trump" is faint praise at best.


I don't think many here are very interested in praising him on merits, such as they are, but the fact that he's getting votes that would otherwise be going to Rump is giving some of us the warm fuzzies. And that's okay.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 9:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Yeah, of all the moral positions that Trump could have taken during the debate, "I will be the worst possible person you allow me to be" doesn't seem like the winningest.

If I thought anything of his craftiness, I'd think this was pretty crafty.

If you regulate him, you're a terrible Big Government over-regulator. If you don't regulate him, it's your fault he's doing bad things.

But I doubt it's that deeply thought through.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:28 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


During the debate I ordered some Hillary onesies for my kids and I am so excited for them to come!
If, like me, you are buying a bunch of gear, please be aware that in Maine, Montana, New York, Vermont, Virginia, and Kansas you should not wear anything (tee shirts, buttons) with campaign messages on them, because you could be turned away (you can come back) for "passive electioneering."
Save yourself the trouble and wear your shirt under a sweater or change into it once you leave your polling place!
posted by rmless at 9:29 AM on October 20, 2016


My only anxiety at this point, possibly irrational, is selective vote-tampering by Russian hackers. My general impression is that the databases are ridiculously insecure, and a little subtle flip-switching in a few districts could nudge Ohio into Trump's column, Florida another...

I'm 84% confident about the election, but this still worries me. If they have the ability and the interest, why wouldn't they?
posted by argybarg at 9:30 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


If, like me, you are buying a bunch of gear, please be aware that in Maine, Montana, New York, Vermont, Virginia, and Kansas you should not wear anything (tee shirts, buttons) with campaign messages on them, because you could be turned away (you can come back) for "passive electioneering."
Save yourself the trouble and wear your shirt under a sweater or change into it once you leave your polling place!


This is true in South Carolina too. (I thought it was true pretty much everywhere?)
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:31 AM on October 20, 2016


> I don't think many here are very interested in praising him on merits, such as they are, but the fact that he's getting votes that would otherwise be going to Rump is giving some of us the warm fuzzies. And that's okay.

Plus: "Egg McMuffin"! Don't bury the lede!
posted by languagehat at 9:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


A big WTF moment for me from the second debate was the "I'm a tax cheat, therefore I'm the most qualified to lead tax reform." Which as Scalzi said, was a moment of goaded self-owning. Not that I expected more from Trump, but I think Republicans have generally done a much better job of pivoting away when confronted with their privilege to game their way out of obligations of citizenship.

I have somewhat mixed feelings on what the Clinton administration will do, but I have no conflict about my tuesday vote for her.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wear your Hillary gear under a set of Tyvek painter's coveralls, and then once you've voted, scream triumphantly and rip them apart Superman-style on your way out of the polling place.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]



the only way you could blocked a renewed push for a "grand bargain" is if Elisabeth Warren decides who the next Sec. of Treasury is going to be. It's personnel which will tell you *exactly* which way the Clinton administration is going to go. maybe Bernie got more than some rules changes, but I doubt it: we'll all see when she announces her appointments after the (presumed) victory. If Wall Street continues to rule Treasury then you will know. There are bound to be some token left advisor appointments, but it's the positions that have authority that are important. IMHO, Hillary has taken too many big checks from too many big business and financial interests for the answer to be in question and Bernie totally abdicated what could have been a powerful post-primary role.


But here's the thing: they all want to fuck up social security. Who would possibly be a presidential candidate who doesn't have their eye on that sweet, sweet money which could be redirected to Wall Street?

I feel like we on the left have this narrative about the government which totally omits any popular role short of revolution in the streets. They always want to fuck us over - what keeps them from doing it? Why didn't Obama? Why didn't Bush? Why didn't Clinton I? I mean, given rich people, why do we even have a minimum wage, any kind of voting rights, etc at all? Surely evidence suggests that it's not through the goodness of the elites' hearts?

No, the reason they don't just expropriate everyone, jail the dissidents and run us over with tanks when we protest is because, within the limits of our system, they need to preserve the "legitimacy" piece of hegemony. And they need to do that by responding to votes and public pressure. If there's enough public outcry and organizing, it will be very difficult to make changes to social security. Why do you think it's lasted as long as it has?

I feel like the whole "and Hillary will appoint evil people who will inexorably work evil" thing, while it certainly captures the ill will of elites toward ordinary people, does not take into account the actual process of political change.
posted by Frowner at 9:33 AM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


I had to...
posted by Nasty Woman at 11:19 AM on October 20


Totally understandable.
posted by deplorable trump's bottomless basket of ennui at 9:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [67 favorites]


I mean, one reason to vote for the Democrat in general is that the Democrat tends to be more beholden to unions, POC and women, so has less ability to do us down.
posted by Frowner at 9:35 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


If, like me, you are buying a bunch of gear, please be aware that in Maine, Montana, New York, Vermont, Virginia, and Kansas you should not wear anything (tee shirts, buttons) with campaign messages on them, because you could be turned away (you can come back) for "passive electioneering."

I have a problem. I *always* wear red to the voting booth (you know to represent the blood of the workers and all). Apparently the Trump campaign is trying to own that color. :(
posted by mrgrimm at 9:35 AM on October 20, 2016


I don't think many here are very interested in praising him on merits, such as they are, but the fact that he's getting votes that would otherwise be going to Rump is giving some of us the warm fuzzies.

I wouldn't vote for him but I'm happy to egg him on.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:37 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wear your Hillary gear under a set of Tyvek painter's coveralls, and then once you've voted, scream triumphantly and rip them apart Superman-style on your way out of the polling place.
Excellent idea.

This is true in South Carolina too. (I thought it was true pretty much everywhere?)
Actively campaigning is prohibited everywhere, but for wearing logos and passive electioneering, it's state by state! Prob best not to test the limits out anyway of what is acceptable, if just to save yourself the hassle of going back again.
posted by rmless at 9:38 AM on October 20, 2016


My only anxiety at this point, possibly irrational, is selective vote-tampering by Russian hackers. My general impression is that the databases are ridiculously insecure, and a little subtle flip-switching in a few districts could nudge Ohio into Trump's column, Florida another...

I'm 84% confident about the election, but this still worries me. If they have the ability and the interest, why wouldn't they?


I understand where you're coming from, because I had similar thoughts a few weeks ago, but as Hillary increases her margin of victory this nightmare scenario becomes more of a joke. With the leads she has in battleground states, they'd have to surreptitiously hack more and more states and systems, to the point it'd be ridiculous and obvious.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:39 AM on October 20, 2016


numaner: Little Haiti is just like real Haiti!

Trump toured the world, without leaving the United States. Walk through every Little country community, collect your country pins and fill up your pin board, like a real adult human!


Well, Trump already had his little passport in his little hands...
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:39 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I got turned away in Michigan for wearing my VOTE YES ON NO shirt because it looked like electioneering (there weren't even any Yes/No ballot questions in that election). I live a block away from my precinct, so I didn't fight it.
posted by Etrigan at 9:40 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Straight from OH rally: Trump will now accept the results of the election...

... if he wins!
posted by Talez at 9:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


FWIW, I'd rather have a beer with Hillary.

Are we using that as a Presidential test anymore?
posted by mazola at 9:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


There’s something shady about her, something that isn’t genuine. I can’t put my finger on it

This is beyond perplexing. I'm continually astounded that people fail to see Trump for what he is. He's so obviously incompetent, shady, full of shit, sleazy, selfish, ignorant, sexist, etc. and so forth yet Hillary seems ingenuine and shady in contrast?

A fictional race called the Vulcans realized that as a species they had significantly dangerous mental health issues that if left unacknowledged and unchecked would lead to common extreme paranoia and murderous rage and decided to do something about it, else they'd turn into a species of Trumps (though more intelligent obviously). It seems were barely able to avoid him if at all. Basic reason and logic is cast aside far to often and terrible emotions are allowed to bowl over empathy. As I've grown older I can't help but think of our a planet as a neglected insane asylum. This election has not changed that.
posted by juiceCake at 9:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


CNN chyron now says TRUMP: WILL TOTALLY ACCEPT RESULTS "IF I WIN" [real]
posted by mochapickle at 9:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


when trump came out with the "nasty" line i wondered if she would respond.

"Zip it, rapist—a woman is talking."
posted by The Tensor at 9:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump will now accept the results of the election...

... if he wins!


Isn't this just the obvious implication of "I'll look at it at the time"?
posted by theodolite at 9:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


If, like me, you are buying a bunch of gear, please be aware that in Maine, Montana, New York, Vermont, Virginia, and Kansas you should not wear anything (tee shirts, buttons) with campaign messages on them, because you could be turned away (you can come back) for "passive electioneering."

This sort of thing turns over all the time (in 2008 this was unquestionably true), but as of the last major election in Virginia they had removed this rule on personal apparel if you're there to vote (presumably because otherwise it's potentially disenfranchising). Assuming Fairfax is keeping their page up to date, that remains the case. You just can't dawdle after you finish vothing.
posted by phearlez at 9:46 AM on October 20, 2016


Trump will now accept the results of the election...

... if he wins!


Well that's a really dumb follow up to a really dumb answer.
posted by mazola at 9:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Tenth Woman to Recently Accuse Trump of Sexual Assault Says He Groped Her at the U.S. Open in 1998
“He said, ‘Hey look at this one. We haven’t seen her before. Look at those legs,’ as though I was an object rather than a person. He then walked up to me and reached his right arm and grabbed my right arm. Then his hand touched the right inside of my breast. I was in shock. I flinched. ‘Don’t you know who I am?’ That’s what he said to me.”
How does anyone ever think "Don't you know who I am?" is a good look? That is universally the query of horrific douches trying to get away with unacceptable bullshit.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [33 favorites]


I do not want that orange fuck or any of his mates anywhere near my beer, even if he did drink.
posted by Artw at 9:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Spiro Agnew

What is an anagram for "grow a penis," Alex?


I guess it's unsurprising the artificial meat movement is also subject to rule 34.

NO YOU'RE THE PUPPET!

My earworm since last night


Do you like puppets?

There's still the down-ticket races to win, so my guess is they'll use every bullet in the gun, and probably keep pulling the trigger after.

Then throw the gun at them.

You're asking questions and trying to become informed. That gives you a leg up on roughly half the major entrants into this year's race.

And most of the other half didn't even know enough to know what questions to ask.
posted by phearlez at 9:49 AM on October 20, 2016


I just had a chilling thought...
I read about Hillary's tax remark/quip, and yes, it made sense. It probably was gentle ribbing. And then Donald responded with the 'nasty woman' line. Watching the video, I saw him smiling broadly after he said that.

Could it be... no, it can't be... but still. Could it be that this was his idea of gentle ribbing?
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:49 AM on October 20, 2016




You guys! I just figured out why Trump's been sniffing so much in the debates! They must have made him take out the nose ring that Hillary's been leading him around by, right before he got onstage!
posted by gurple at 9:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Nate Silver: Clinton Probably Finished Off Trump Last Night
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on October 20, 2016


Paranoid fantasy: A candidate colludes with a foreign power to create a massive electronic vote-rigging scheme in his favor. He then spends months complaining that the vote will be rigged *against him*, forcing his opponents to deny that any rigging is taking place, and therefore making it politically impossible for them to say it has occurred when he mysteriously wins.

(Counterpoint: Experts seem to be pretty certain this is impossible, and the idea that Donald Trump is remotely capable of that level of calculated forethought is laughable.)
posted by kyrademon at 9:53 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Just got the news that my wife's voter registration is all up-to-date. We had to update mine to our new address, but her previous registration was from 3 addresses ago and had her maiden name, so it took some digging around to figure out how to actually update it...but it's done! She doesn't care much about politics (and is fascinatingly uninformed*) which made it really fun a few weeks ago when I discovered her trying to update her info as a result of Facebook's election reminders. She doesn't want Trump to win, but now isn't quite sure what to do about the fact that she could still vote for a handful of other people. Regardless, I'm super proud of her being interested in this election, and am pretty pumped that I'll have some great company this year as I walk over to the polling location.




*She knows how things work on the School House Rock level, but doesn't really care which politicians are affiliated with which parties. I am little worried she's gonna casually drop some sort of remark about how ridiculous Trump is to the wrong relative or church member, but whatever, it'd be fun to see some responses to some innocent questions about fitness for president. She can handle it.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:53 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Janet Jackson’s “Nasty” Gets 250% Spotify Boost After Trump Calls Clinton a “Nasty Woman"


I'm certainly among that count and this morning realized that:

"Cause Privacy is my middle name. My last name is Control"

really should, for better or for worse, make it her theme song, and I can't wait for people to freak the fuck out when it plays at an inaugural ball in 3 months.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [40 favorites]


Jon Favreau: Nobody hire her [Kellyanne Conway] after this

Wow. This was in response to her bleating out hearsay saying some journalists were saying it was a terrible night for Hillary and Trump's best.
posted by Talez at 9:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Is this election killing anyone else's productivity? I follow news almost all day, I refresh threads, I get into pointless online arguments with Trump people who don't want their minds changed. It's all a waste of time, I know, since all I can do is vote and wait like the rest of us. Me watching doesn't give me any more control on the outcome than me not watching- so why am I still doing it? I need to get work done! But I'm still here... Help.
posted by bluecore at 9:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [78 favorites]


With respect to coal country support for Trump, Natalie Schreyer at Mother Jones writes about a bipartisan pension bill being held up by Senate Republicans.

The Other War on Coal: Thousands of Retired Miners Could Lose Their Health Care and Pensions:
Two weeks after the rally, a bipartisan majority of Senate Finance Committee members voted 18 to 8 to move the bill out of committee and onto the floor of the Senate. (All of the senators who voted "no" are Republicans.) But the bill's future will remain unknown until McConnell agrees to allow a floor vote—something he has yet to do. At a press conference in September, McConnell suggested the bill could get a vote during the weeks after the election, according to USA Today. A similar bill in the House of Representatives is waiting in committee.

McConnell's office didn't respond to requests for comment, but he has reportedly expressed skepticism about the legislation. Other Republican lawmakers, along with an influential conservative think tank, have come out against the bill. The Heritage Foundation argues that the Krug-Lewis agreement was never intended to be a permanent promise that the federal government would ensure the security of union members' retirement benefits once the government relinquished control of the mines. Others warn that passage of the bill would set a troubling precedent under which the government would be expected to bail out other private-sector pension plans. Sen. Mike Enzi (R-Wyo.), an opponent of the bill who hails from a coal state with mostly non-union workers, said at the Senate Finance Committee hearing that he had commissioned a legal memo from the non-partisan Congressional Research Service showing that "the US government has never and does not have any obligation to provide retirement benefits to United Mine Worker miners."

Opponents of the bill also complain that it only covers union workers, leaving non-union miners without similar benefits. "The bill helps only some of the thousands of coal miners that are hurting because of the administration's war on fossil fuels," said Enzi. "They'd rather have their jobs back."
posted by palindromic at 9:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


FWIW, I'd rather have a beer with Hillary.

Are we using that as a Presidential test anymore?


Hasn't been around as much this election, I think. I know I decided during the 2008 one that it was a pretty stupid question - there's lots of people I deal with/work with that I wouldn't want to drink with, but that has nothing to do with how well I think they do their jobs. I mean, I get that the idea is to explore which candidate seems more personally likeable and that fact isn't unimportant, but I really think we should have a level of discourse about our politicians that touches on the fact that they are also there to do a job and that people we don't like may still be good choices for a job role because of the demands of that role. And in my professional capacity, I've also gone out for beers/wings/meals with people I don't like an awful lot personally, but have done so because having some level of relationship is important.

That being said, I would love to sit down for beer, wine, shots, or iced tea with Hillary, Tim, Elizabeth, Barack, Michelle, Joe, etc. And while I know Trump doesn't drink, I also really couldn't see him sitting down for anything as "common" as a beer or a glass of iced tea with anyone unless he thinks it would advance his brand.
posted by nubs at 9:56 AM on October 20, 2016




Janet Jackson’s “Nasty” Gets 250% Spotify Boost After Trump Calls Clinton a “Nasty Woman"

And here I thought this elections theme was Lily Allen's "Fuck You".
posted by Talez at 9:56 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is this election killing anyone else's productivity?

Oh yes. And it's even more useless in my case because I can't even vote.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


I’ve often been struck by how much more human and funny politicians become after they retire. Being on-message and careful about what you say all the time is unnatural and makes most people come across as stilted. It’s the Bill Clintons of the world, who manage to come across as warm and spontaneous while being disciplined and calculating about what they say, who are the weirdos.

And Hillary isn’t in his league, but I still think she’s better at it than a lot of politicians are. When I see Americans moaning about her as an unlikeable or uncharismatic candidate I can’t help thinking you lot have been spoilt. Look at some of the UK’s recent party leaders: Jeremy Corbyn, Ed Milliband, Gordon Brown, Michael Howard, Iain Duncan Smith. What a shower.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 9:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


I bet he wouldn't share his coke either.
posted by Artw at 9:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is this election killing anyone else's productivity? I follow news almost all day, I refresh threads, I get into pointless online arguments with Trump people who don't want their minds changed. It's all a waste of time, I know, since all I can do is vote and wait like the rest of us. Me watching doesn't give me any more control on the outcome than me not watching- so why am I still doing it? I need to get work done! But I'm still here... Help.

Really, "just don't look" is the best strategy. Don't visit social media sites, don't read the news, don't watch TV. It's still almost 3 weeks. Save your sanity and turn off your screens.

(Unless you're at work on a screen anyway and you can't stand your job and then well it's better than working.)
posted by mrgrimm at 9:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Janet Jackson’s “Nasty” Gets 250% Spotify Boost After Trump Calls Clinton a “Nasty Woman"

Let's not forget the original Nasty Gal, Betty Davis. Much nastier than Ms. Janet, imo.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oddly enough, I find Hillary Clinton immensely likable. Serious, yes. Brilliant, certainly. A little cautious about revealing herself. Reminds me of my best friend Kate.
posted by Peach at 9:12 AM on October 20 [12 favorites +] [!]


OMG Peach maybe your best friend Kate is actually Hillary Clinton in disguise!!!!!

Have you ever seen them in the same room together at the same time???
posted by Kibbutz at 10:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


"I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election, if I win."
So he's decided to spend the next three weeks simply annoying the country? Why stop there? Next he should appear on stage with an ice cream cone and chant "Want a lick? Can't have one! Psyche!"
posted by octobersurprise at 10:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Now Trump is talking about Zika in Ohio. You know when that would have been good? I don't know, maybe when you were in Pensacola and Tallahassee?

Jesus Christ this just gets dumber.
posted by Talez at 10:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


Next he should appear on stage with an ice cream cone and chant "Want a lick? Can't have one! Psyche!"

In Republican circles this is known as "The Antarctic Strategy"
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:04 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Next he should appear on stage with an ice cream cone and chant "Want a lick? Can't have one! Psyche!"

He's a real-world Million Dollar Man.
posted by Etrigan at 10:04 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Could it be... no, it can't be... but still. Could it be that this was his idea of gentle ribbing?

My take is that he has really, really, really wanted to call Clinton a bitch or worse, out loud, like for the whole election. It's just how he rolls. Even his 'say it like it is' brain knows that this would not be good and he has managed to hold it in. Last night her quip was just the final straw and he couldn't hold it in anymore. When he said his 'nasty woman' comment I thought whelp there is the 'bitch or c-word' name finally. Gave him a slight bit of credit for managing to at least dog-whistle it.

'Nasty Woman" was his bitch/c-word moment.
posted by Jalliah at 10:04 AM on October 20, 2016 [25 favorites]


In case you haven't looked at 538's Utah page recently... the Purple.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:05 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Just wanted to come in to reflect that Malik Obama, Sarah Palin and all of the other stunt casting Cheeto Benito (finito) did, was a complete waste and had zero effect.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:05 AM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


'Nasty Woman" was his bitch/c-word moment.

I'd bet all the money in my wallet that a reverse-angle shot at that moment would show Ivanka mouthing "DON'T SAY BITCH".
posted by Etrigan at 10:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


CNN chyron now says TRUMP: WILL TOTALLY ACCEPT RESULTS "IF I WIN" [real]

Good grief, that is a 100% accurate quote: "I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election ... if I win."

Although Trump declared last week that the shackles were off - n.b. after losing the second debate - we're only now truly seeing what Trump looks like when he has nothing left to lose. If he does attend the Al Smith Dinner tonight, it's going to be horrible non-stop trolling like this.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]



*She knows how things work on the School House Rock level


I'm sure Trump is jealous of this level of expertise.
posted by zutalors! at 10:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]




Nasty woman didn't feel like a dogwhistle, it felt like an outright slur.
posted by zutalors! at 10:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


Nasty woman didn't feel like a dogwhistle, it felt like an outright slur.

Oh it was most definitely. Still not as bad as what I expect he wanted to say, which is why I say it was also a dog-whistle.
posted by Jalliah at 10:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


There was a moment in the debate when he referred to her as "this person" with such contempt, and with a significant pause between the words - it read to me as if he was about say "this woman" or some other gendered derogatory and caught himself, but was enraged by having to do it.
posted by oh yeah! at 10:19 AM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


Trump Told Russia to Blame for Hacks Long Before Debate
During Sunday's debate, Donald Trump once again said he doesn't know whether Russia is trying to hack the U.S. election, despite Friday's statement by the U.S. intelligence community pointing the finger at Putin -- and despite the fact that Trump was personally briefed on Russia's role in the hacks by U.S. officials.
Joint DHS and ODNI Election Security Statement, October 7, 2016
The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations. The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:20 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lmao he really doesn't get that this banana republic ignore-the-election-results shit only works if you're already in power and can stifle dissent! Otherwise you're just some crazy person!
posted by theodolite at 10:22 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


I realize this is late (west coast & sleeping late and all), but:

sallybrown: I wish we taught government and the law in depth at every level of public schooling. Even Trump, last night - the way he talked about Roe v. Wade being "automatically" overturned, the way he said Clinton could have changed the law if she wanted to when she was in the Senate - it's very clear he didn't understand the way basic legal processes work.

In 13 years as a teacher in CA and WA, including some side-work grading tests from other states from Pearson, I have never seen any part of the social studies curriculum included as a part of standardized testing. At best you'll see a question or three that leans in that direction as part of a test for reading comprehension, but it's never a focus of those tests. I've even seen district-wide exit exams for biology classes. No such thing for history or government/civics.

When they've chopped up music and art and trade classes like auto or wood shop and they've still gotta cut, guess which subject gets to do with one fewer teacher, and therefore much bigger class sizes? Oh, and can you focus your classwork on reading and writing skills? That stuff gets tested. Thanks.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump likes to brag about the 21 congressional Medal of Honor recipients that have endorsed him. More than 3,400 servicemen and -women have been awarded the Medal of Honor. So 0.6%.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:24 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Still not as bad as what I expect he wanted to say, which is why I say it was also a dog-whistle.

I expect he's saving the "b" and "c" words for his concession speech.
posted by orange swan at 10:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Good grief, that is a 100% accurate quote: "I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election ... if I win."

Holy shit he really did just say that. The trump train is on fire, off the rails, loaded with explosives, and currently barreling towards the flimsy ballasts that hold up our democracy.
posted by dis_integration at 10:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Janet Jackson's Control was the first cassette I ever purchased in my own money, which I did at age 10, which was like 7 years after Control came out. I decided to spend my allowance to get my own cassettes. The only real requirement was that it not be something my dad would have. As it was my only tape, I listened to it non-stop for about 6 months, then my next tape was Hole's Live Through This. Both were played endlessly on my Teddy Ruxpin, because I had not saved enough for my own real cassette player. Eventually my dad's dislike of the constant weird music through low-fi teddy bear aesthetic outweighed his desire to teach me a lesson about saving money, and he got me an off-brand walkman.

Anyway, kudos to this debate for giving new life to 'Nasty Boys,' it is my favorite thing of this election by far.
posted by palindromic at 10:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [60 favorites]


Last evening of cutting. I have chalked "Make cornfields bare again" on my harvester. Let's do this.
posted by Wordshore at 10:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [78 favorites]


Trump likes to brag about the 21 congressional Medal of Honor recipients that have endorsed him. More than 3,400 servicemen and -women have been awarded the Medal of Honor. So 0.6%.

It's 28 percent of the living recipients.
posted by Etrigan at 10:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


when trump came out with the "nasty" line i wondered if she would respond.... i wonder why she/they decided against that. too high risk

There's an old truism in politics: when your opponent is shooting himself in the foot, don't interrupt him.

He already owned that, it just hung there in the air. It didn't need any interpretation or rejoinder. There's no way she could have made it worse for him.
posted by msalt at 10:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Guys! Guess what I got in the mail! *Does little happy dance.* My ballot!

Time to vote for Hillary, because I am indeed a very Nasty Woman.
posted by susiswimmer at 10:30 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump doesn't admire women except in terms of their fuckability. Period. That is a big part of his problem, really. Claiming that he admires Hillary is ridiculous—he doesn't even fully understand what she is, a woman has no place in his worldview except as a sex object.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:59 AM on October 20 [5 favorites +] [!]


Kind of makes you wonder what Ivanka's life would be like if she'd been born ugly. I suspect her relationship with her father would be very very different. Even without bringing creepy relationship overtones into it, Trump clearly has a hate-on for any woman who doesn't meet his standards of beauty.
posted by invincible summer at 10:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ana Navarro on Trump's failed Latino outreach: He knows 'two Spanish words - hombre and taco':
Navarro then noted that while she might have been upset about such a statement in the past, her non-stop outrage at Trump’s overall campaign has left her emotionally drained.

“It’s just one more thing that Donald Trump says,” she said. “I almost feel like my capacity to react has been exhausted.”

She then finished off by mocking Trump’s 13% approval rating among Latino voters, while going on to say that many Latinos at this point see Trump as a “bad hombre” who also happens to be “loco.”
posted by palindromic at 10:33 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]




Parents complain to FCC about airing of vulgar Trump recording and threaten to sue CNN
In more than 20 complaints filed to the Federal Communications Commission in the days immediately after the tape’s publication on Oct. 7, viewers from around America asked the FCC to investigate and punish news outlets for broadcasting Trump’s words unedited. The complaints were obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request.

“CNN has been running the ‘trump tape’ non stop since Friday October 7th 2016,” wrote a viewer from Las Vegas. (All complainant’s names were redacted in the FCC records.) “In that tape is vulgar language yet they play it and repeat it constantly. If it's so bad that trump should drop out of the race saying it ONE time then why is it ok for CNN to run it 4 times an hour for 48 hours straight??????”

Many of the complainants were parents who had been watching the news with their children.

One Madison, Ala., viewer wrote: “I was watching the show with my 13 year old and was completely stunned they did not edit those words in the subtitle or audio.” A Geneva, N.Y., viewer complained, “How do I a parent of a fifteen year old talk about what Trump was talking about on the video?”
As a cable network, CNN is not subject to the FCC's indecency rules, so the complaints are largely meaningless.

I do like this one though (emphasis added): “I am offended by CNN running the actual words that Donald Trump said during a taped audio in 2005 and which CNN is constantly airing today,”
posted by zachlipton at 10:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


BTW my local food truck, manned by Salvadorans, was selling a "Bad Hombre" burrito this morning.

People are listening.
posted by selfnoise at 10:34 AM on October 20, 2016 [107 favorites]


I'm so envious of people who already get to vote! Here in NY I gotta wait till the actual day.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Last evening of cutting. I have chalked "Make cornfields bare again" on my harvester. Let's do this.

Wordshore, I live smack in the middle of fields. Waiting for the combines to show up and start cutting the corn. It usually happens in the evenings and I get lulled to sleep by the whir and noise of engines. The thought of someone in one reading the election thread on Metafilter as they bump along, fills me with bubbly happiness.
posted by Jalliah at 10:37 AM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


OK - I know Control and Nasty Boys, but just barely. I wasn't so much into Janet Jackson. What I have running through my head this morning is Nasty Habits by Oingo Boingo.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:37 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Guys, guys I think I know why Trump likes Russia so much

Russia is a decaying oligarchy that became powerful through unethical business deals and exploitation in the 20th century, but now finds itself desperate to grab onto any kind of attention by pretending to be wealthier and more relevant than it actually is.

Russia is Trump’s mirror
posted by Tarumba at 10:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


One Madison, Ala., viewer wrote: “I was watching the show with my 13 year old and was completely stunned they did not edit those words in the subtitle or audio.” A Geneva, N.Y., viewer complained, “How do I a parent of a fifteen year old talk about what Trump was talking about on the video?”

The notion that a thirteen- or fifteen-year-old would be shocked or confused by the word "pussy" is just precious.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [68 favorites]


How does anyone ever think "Don't you know who I am?" is a good look?

Worked for Jesus Christ, but he was special.
posted by spitbull at 10:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


When do we get a new thread?
posted by agregoli at 10:43 AM on October 20, 2016


One Madison, Ala., viewer wrote: “I was watching the show with my 13 year old and was completely stunned they did not edit those words in the subtitle or audio.” A Geneva, N.Y., viewer complained, “How do I a parent of a fifteen year old talk about what Trump was talking about on the video?”

It's a teachable moment, parents. As the father of a 14-year-old boy it's a great opportunity to talk about sexism, sexual assault, all sorts of stuff. And how my son can not only avoid sexist behavior, but how he can prevent it and speak out against it.

Complaining to the FCC is so fucking stupid. And as a Canadian I always thought Americans held the moral high ground when it came to protecting freedom of speech.
posted by My Dad at 10:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [32 favorites]


Soooo Trumps Mirror got me worried. He keeps claiming the elections are rigged and now he says he'll accept the results "if he wins".
posted by like_neon at 10:44 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't care if you are Jesus Christ, don't expect me to know who you are just because you've been on TV. I deliberately avoid the TV specifically so that I don't have to know about fucking assholes like Donald Trump, or hear the things that they say. Fame is garbage, I don't have room in my brain for that kind of bullshit.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:45 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump Told Russia to Blame for Hacks Long Before Debate

Ehh, didn't you hear that Trump is going to start his own agency for cyber? (Presumably based on Windows 2003 Server.)
The Trump Organization deploys best in class firewall and anti-vulnerability technology with constant 24/7 monitoring. Our infrastructure is vast and leverages multiple platforms which are consistently monitored and upgraded using current cyber security best practices.
(My stools, sir, are gigantic and have no more odor than a hot biscuit!)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:46 AM on October 20, 2016


now he says he'll accept the results "if he wins".

Did he really say that? (The [real] and [fake] tags are getting more and more necessary...)
posted by Surely This at 10:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Soooo Trumps Mirror got me worried. He keeps claiming the elections are rigged and now he says he'll accept the results "if he wins".

That makes him look more barky than bitey, like_neon. The Repubs are already telling him to STFU
posted by Tarumba at 10:47 AM on October 20, 2016


Yes, he really said that. "I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election—if I win."
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]




The notion that a thirteen- or fifteen-year-old would be shocked or confused by the word "pussy" is just precious.

yes but think of the trauma those youngsters must endure when mom and pop sit them down to explain what the orange man said and why it is wrong
posted by logicpunk at 10:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


And still Ryan and McConnell and most of their respective caucuses remain completely, and reprehensibly, silent.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:50 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


yes but think of the trauma those youngsters must endure when mom and pop sit them down to explain what the orange man said and why it is wrong

I was 10 when the Starr Report came out. Every generation has its challenges I guess.
posted by zachlipton at 10:52 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


#trumpbookreports
posted by TedW at 10:53 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, when are we going to start hearing the chorus of condemnation that surely must rise from the GOP in response to Trump's rejection of democracy? Right now it's a chorus of crickets. Which are invertebrates and therefore spineless, so maybe that's appropriate.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:53 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


“Always. Bottom line, we're going to win. Bottom line, we're going to win. We're going to win. We're going to win so big. We're going to win so big.”
Who the hell says things five times outside of some type of masterful parallel construction?
posted by xyzzy at 10:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


I don't care if you are Jesus Christ, don't expect me to know who you are just because you've been on TV.

Christ was more of a literary celebrity. You knew him mostly by his works.
posted by spitbull at 10:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [38 favorites]


I actually hope he doesn't concede. An on-the-air meltdown ala Karl Rove, going down denying any reality that didn't come catered to him on a silver platter, would be the fitting end to an Aristotelian comedy. Maybe we could get the Coen Brothers to pen the screenplay.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


What percentage of living Congressional Medal of Honor recipients endorse Trump? 27.6%, you say? Hmmm.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:54 AM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


Trumpty Dumpty promised a wall...

Trumpty Dumpty had a UGE fall.
CNNs horses and all the Fox News men
Couldn't get Trumpty a vote in Novem
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trumpty Dumpty promised a wall...

Trumpty Dumpty ratings did fall
All the Giulianis and Conway, Kellyanne
Couldn't put Trumpty's dignity together again
posted by splen at 10:56 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm all in for Clinton, but as I was watching the debate I was thinking that even if I wasn't, she is intelligent, well-prepared, and makes logical arguments. You might disagree with her, but you can understand her positions.

I've been following the election very closely, and most of the time I cannot understand Trump's positions because he rarely if ever says anything substantial. During the debates he also has a bad habit of tossing out random things without explaining their context. The "red line" in Syria when he's talking about Iraq, the O'Keefe tapes that no one knows about if they don't watch Fox, "Podesta said some horrible things about you, and, boy, was he right. He said some beauties." Who even knows who Podesta is or what he said?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I wish we taught government and the law in depth at every level of public schooling.

Soooo Texas requires all public university students to complete six hours of American and Texas government and well I will just note that this is not the panacea you might think it would be
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


Last evening of cutting. I have chalked "Make cornfields bare again" on my harvester. Let's do this.

PUT DOWN THE PHONE, WORDSHORE!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


Who the hell says things five times outside of some type of masterful parallel construction?

Didn't you learn anything from the bureaucrats in Futurama stamping things five times? Five times makes it legit!
posted by Talez at 10:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]




I think I can somewhat understand the millennial attitude towards the candidates. It doesn't come directly from all the years of attacks against Clinton, I mean they wouldn't even be aware of most of that, but it does come from the effect of those attacks where Clinton has adopted a much more guarded public persona in order to combat the negativity.

Guarded, in a way, can read as insincere, as if she's hiding something, which in a way she is, her depth of emotion behind the issues she supports. She does this out of necessity given her own history, but to those who aren't aware or don't care about that history it can come across as potentially duplicitous.

Growing up "now' one would see so many things as real which the history of national politics treat as false or subjective. National politics are still stuck carrying baggage from the sixties and every decade up to our own. Unawareness of this can make so many elements of a national campaign seem downright archaic or bizarre as if the candidates are addressing aliens rather than what one might actually see around them in normal life.

Clinton has been in the national spotlight for so long and absorbed so many blows from being visible that she, by dint of this, addresses herself to this quasi-fictional historical narrative of what the country is even as she proposes policies intended to change it. It's what she has to do to get past the ghouls of the right and appeal to a wide range of voters each with their own subsection of knowledge from our political past. By needing to address what she was doing in the 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond, she is going to be abridging different narratives of each era and pasting them back together into one which she will offer now as being a coherent story. Politics in the US is anything but coherent in that sense though, it's battles over both specific details and generic "values" which are imagined to be those which might gain the most traction in the moment leading to a given vote.

Unawareness of that makes the patchwork narratives feel like lies, because they aren't exactly the truth and can't be. Being a young voter means you are less burdened by history and compromise, your values and perceptions are more honed towards a kind of purity of belief that our political system is almost designed to kill. Young voters are more likely to be drawn to bold or extreme statements since they seem truer by being purer even if they are also completely unrealistic for being so. "Telling it like it is" is the measure many use as a yardstick for honesty, and there is value in that, but it isn't necessarily the best measure since competing views of what that "is" is can leave candidates caught out on the margins while their opponent appeals to the masses. It seems clear to me that Clinton is trying to split that difference, maintaining a sense of moderation in her calls to see things as they are so they can be addressed, but I can't say I entirely fault some voters for seeing all of this as a horrible game where "truth" is being ignored.

(All of this also, by the way, explains something about McMullin's candidacy that is pretty interesting and goes to why some of us are excited about it, but that's a topic for another time.)
posted by gusottertrout at 10:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


kirkaracha, the charitable interpretation is that he's speaking directly to his loyal followers, the rally crowd that hangs on his every word and doesn't need to be brought up to speed to understand what he's saying because they've already heard it dozens of times.

The less charitable interpretation is that he's so stupid he can't form complete sentences.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:59 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


What I have running through my head this morning is Nasty Habits by Oingo Boingo.

Betty Davis, "Nasty Gal." Also, the Beasties, "Hello Nasty."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:00 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I actually hope he doesn't concede. An on-the-air meltdown ala Karl Rove, going down denying any reality that didn't come catered to him on a silver platter, would be the fitting end to an Aristotelian comedy

And as Trump rants on stage about how he's the real winner, Rachel Maddow gets a huge smile, uncaps the protective cover over the red button sitting on her desk, gives it a whack, and the Curb Your Enthusiasm song plays as MSNBC plays him off into the sunset.
posted by zachlipton at 11:00 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


this is not the panacea you might think it would be

Then I propose that citizens have to pass a test to vote. We immigrants do, after all!

(it's not very difficult, but still)
posted by Tarumba at 11:01 AM on October 20, 2016


I actually hope he doesn't concede. An on-the-air meltdown ala Karl Rove, going down denying any reality that didn't come catered to him on a silver platter, would be the fitting end to an Aristotelian comedy. Maybe we could get the Coen Brothers to pen the screenplay.

Or Burton, because Burton's best movies have involved character studies of real people who lived in a bubble of self delusion.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:01 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]




Washington Post says Donald won the debate.

Earth to Washington Post, Donald did a little better than he has before. Even with spoon fed coddled questions, he only barely surpassed his own performance. He has never even made it to the hemline of Hillary Clinton's pantsuit in any of the debates, or ever in any negotiation, in his life. He is cunning, but sloppily so. He is running, but as fast as he can go, is to barely address even one question on point. So, please. What, you call yourself a newspaper?
posted by Oyéah at 11:02 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


If there's enough public outcry and organizing, it will be very difficult to make changes to social security. Why do you think it's lasted as long as it has?

I feel like the whole "and Hillary will appoint evil people who will inexorably work evil" thing, while it certainly captures the ill will of elites toward ordinary people, does not take into account the actual process of political change.
posted by Frowner at 12:33 PM on October 20 [9 favorites +] [!]


SS still exists because it is structured as a pension that you pay into while working rather than as an income transfer program and because enough of the "middle class" gets a benefit even though it does transfer income downwards. that's why attempts to destroy SS won't do it directly but by eroding those two pillars and why most Democrats don't believe that politicians like Clinton (or Obama) want to destroy SS as *welfare* for old people, because the moves they have telegraphed have never been overt.

but, by turning the general election into a referendum on Trump, the Clinton campaign has been able to short-circuit any leverage the "left" in the Democratic party could have gained. Clinton owes nothing to Sanders or Warren for her probable victory. She has had no reason or motivation to make any deals in exchange for support/voters. this whole election thread about how bad Trump is, is why both Warren and Sanders have had to jump on the defeat Trump bandwagon. you will remember how hard Sanders was jumped on during the convention; any opposition to Clinton means you are supporting Trump, who is a very bad man.

these giant "election" threads which are really just a pile-on on Trump are a testament to how successful Clinton's election strategy has been at neutralizing the Warren wing of the Democratic party. but people still go around pretending as if Sanders moved her to the left. the Clinton wing of the party never took Sanders seriously, until almost too late, but they *hate* Warren. they think she has bad, crazy ideas and that she is a threat. the only way Warren would have had any influence is through being able to trade the votes of her supporters for (at least) vetos over finance related personnel decisions during the transitions... that isn't going to happen:
The wing of the Democratic Party concerned about personnel decisions made its opinion known almost two years ago. Dan Geldon, now chief of staff to Senator Elizabeth Warren, met with Dan Schwerin, a top adviser to Clinton’s campaign, in January 2015. According to an email follow-up with Podesta and others, Geldon “was intently focused on personnel issues, laid out a detailed case against the Bob Rubin school of Democratic policy makers.” He was also “very critical of the Obama administration’s choices.”

The “Bob Rubin school” is named for the former top executive at Goldman Sachs and Citigroup and first Clinton administration Treasury secretary. It is composed precisely of the kinds of Democrats that the Warren wing opposes on domestic policy, particularly on financial matters. In the Obama administration, that school won out. Froman, chief of staff to Rubin at Treasury, gave options for Treasury secretary that ranged from Rubin himself to Summers and Geithner, two of his key protégés. In another 2008 email Rubin imagined for himself a “Harry Hopkins” position in the Obama administration, referring to Franklin Roosevelt’s top adviser.

The Rubin school dictated the Obama administration’s light-touch policy on bank misconduct (which resulted in no serious legal or fiduciary consequences for the major players) and its first-term approach to the financial crisis (which was defined by a stimulus package that even at the time was criticized for being woefully inadequate, as well as a premature turn to budget-cutting). These are exactly the flaws that Geldon, Warren’s emissary, stressed. According to Schwerin, he “spoke repeatedly about the need to have in place people with ambition and urgency who recognize how much the middle class is hurting and are willing to challenge the financial industry.”

Around the same time as that meeting with Geldon, the Clinton campaign was setting up a dinner meeting with its economic policy team, Geithner, Summers, and members of the investment firm Blackstone (along with Teresa Ghilarducci, a retirement security researcher).
posted by ennui.bz at 11:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


The first African-American and the first woman in the White House, back to back. You can't say we don't live in historic times.

And the one after Hillary Clinton is going to be Michelle Obama. How about that for three firsts in a row?
posted by pracowity at 11:03 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


>> I find Hillary Clinton immensely likable

> Me too. She just seems like a smart professional woman from my parents' generation.

Me three! She has that particular combination of immense intelligence, professionalism, and caring that reminds me so much of the teachers I admired (& still admire) growing up.

Including my mom :)

When I was little, those were the people I wanted to be when I grew up, and you know what? That hasn't changed a bit. I don't just like Hillary Clinton; I aspire to be like her in every way.
posted by Westringia F. at 11:04 AM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


Paranoid fantasy: A candidate colludes with a foreign power to create a massive electronic vote-rigging scheme in his favor. He then spends months complaining that the vote will be rigged *against him*, forcing his opponents to deny that any rigging is taking place, and therefore making it politically impossible for them to say it has occurred when he mysteriously wins.

More realistic and terrifying paranoid fantasy: Because of the climate created by aforementioned candidate, the complex and massive electronic vote-rigging is unnecessary if a foreign power wished to create chaos. Instead of subtle widespread modifications, really obvious (and therefore much easier) modifications could be almost as problematic. If every precinct or voting machine in a populous county in a major swing state reported for example 0 for one candidate and 65,535 for the other, the result is obviously unreliable in a way that could throw not just the result in the county but the state and even nation into question, particularly when one candidate doesn't feel constrained by reality, respect for democracy or the process of government.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 11:05 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Washington Post says Donald won the debate. "

Wait, where?
posted by I-baLL at 11:06 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Washington Post says Donald won the debate.

Where? I don't see it anywhere on their site.
Could you be thinking of the Washington Times?
posted by Jalliah at 11:06 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Then I propose that citizens have to pass a test to vote. We immigrants do, after all!

No. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

We already concluded that tests to vote a FUCKING TERRIBLE idea.
posted by Talez at 11:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [63 favorites]


Me three!

Me four, I do think she is cautious and over prepared at times. But I am exactly the same because when people have different standards for you, the only way to shut them up is to overperform and overachieve. I think a lot of women and minorities see that in her.
posted by Tarumba at 11:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Washington Post says Donald won the debate

Well, Ed Rogers, a Republican columnist, wrote an opinion piece saying that Trump won. They also posted several Dem opinion pieces. The paper itself says he committed a "breathtaking repudiation of American democracy."
posted by penduluum at 11:07 AM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


The Trump campaign sent out his prepared remarks with the alternate "zinger" marked "ALTERNATE." They both sound like they were written by Lazlo Toth.
posted by argybarg at 11:08 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Talez, you are right, I was kidding!
posted by Tarumba at 11:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Right here it is an opinion piece.
posted by Oyéah at 11:09 AM on October 20, 2016


>"breathtaking repudiation of American democracy."

Breathtaking in the sense of letting loose an enormous fart in a crowded elevator.
posted by Catblack at 11:10 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


but, by turning the general election into a referendum on Trump, the Clinton campaign has been able to short-circuit any leverage the "left" in the Democratic party could have gained.

What is your counterfactual here? Assuming for the sake of argument that Clinton focused too much on Trump's liabilities, how would the way she ran the campaign change the amount of leverage the "Warren wing" has over her? Are you just ignoring the deltas between Hillary's stated policy positions before the campaign and her stated policy positions now, or are you saying she's simply going to walk away from them?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yet later in his speech, after recycling unfounded accusations that the presidential race will be rigged as a result of mass voter fraud, Trump said he would “of course” accept “a clear election result.”
...
Trump went on to cite a Pew report that found 24 million invalid or insignificant voter registrations in the U.S. as proof that fraud was rampant.


I can only assume he will accept the results if he loses by over 24 million votes.
posted by mazola at 11:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Right here it is an opinion piece.

That's just an opinion piece. Not the whole paper.
posted by Jalliah at 11:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


For all you wonkers out there, What happens when extremists win primaries?

This seems entirely apt right now.
posted by Talez at 11:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Where are you getting the idea that WaPo says Trump won, Oyéah? On the front page of their site, I am seeing the following things:

"Trump’s Attack on Election Integrity Reverberates"
"For Trump, a Strong Start — Then a Killer Mistake"
"Trump's Lack of Self Control Lets Clinton Get Under His Skin"
"Unable to Control Himself, Trump Confirms Everyone's Worst Fears"
"Trump had his most consistent debate yet — but Clinton easily came out on top."

The only thing that says Trump won is the Ed Rogers column titled "Trump Won the Final Debate," but that's literally just one dude's opinion and it's well down the list of articles on the front page right now, all the rest of which heavily favor Clinton's performance.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:11 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Now that Trump has doubled-down on not conceding, expect the next few weeks of media coverage to include shocked outcries, some careful explanations of the low rate of impersonation fraud, some sloppy takes on the low rate of impersonation fraud, some sloppy takes on all sorts of voter fraud just to provide historical context, and a mixture of fair, sloppy and mendacious takes on the O'Keefe tapes ... all merging into the same kind of pernicious background radiation as emailsBenghaziFoundationemailsBenghaziFoundation over the past couple of years.

I don't know if there are still enough of the truly undecided for this to give him and the GOP a real boost in any state, but it's still a decent last minute tactic given his current position. More moments of panic are coming, for sure.
posted by maudlin at 11:13 AM on October 20, 2016


Right here it is an opinion piece.

As with most papers, it's not the opinion of the Washington Post itself unless it's signed "Editorial Board." Opinion sections have lots of columnists who say lots of things all over the map.
posted by aught at 11:14 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


She made a little joke at his expense. And it landed. And it was the best kind of joke, because it was funny because it was true.

And that's what got to him. He can brush off insults and attacks, but he can't bear to be laughed at. He's like every petty guy I've met who thinks they're funny and that women aren't, and when a woman makes a joke, they need to top it, pretend they didn't hear it (and steal it, if it's a crowded enough room), or put her in her place.


This is exactly why I think the Al Smith dinner is going to be a bigger shitshow than the debate was. Trump cannot bear even gentle jokes at his expense. Jesus, at Correspondent Dinners, everybody gets made fun of, and the President always does a lot of self-deprecating jokes. But oh no, not Donald Trump; he can't tolerate any joshing even at an event specifically designed to be a roast. If he shows up tonight, it's going to be ugly.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:14 AM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


But during this debate, he held his tongue and held his temper. [...] he was confident and competent talking about the economy. [...] he even showed a much better understanding of geopolitics than I would have thought.

Ed Rogers must've watched a different debate then everybody else. Thankfully that's just a blog piece. Looking at Rogers contributions it's pretty obvious he just sees what he wants to see.
posted by papercrane at 11:15 AM on October 20, 2016


The Washington Post has a pretty wide range of people writing opinion pieces on its blogs. If someone wants to go with a "Trump won" column there, all the power to them.
posted by zachlipton at 11:16 AM on October 20, 2016


AP FACT CHECK: Trump gets facts wrong on START Treaty

The New START treaty, which Trump called "Start Up," does not prevent either the U.S. or Russia from building nuclear warheads.

Just another goddamn day in this election, where one candidate cannot even produce the correct name or the content of a major strategic arms treaty -- but hey, it was like, a tie, right?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:16 AM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


On 538 Whiz Kid Harry Enten is reversing his previous decision to not vote because 'he'll be fine' based on Trump's comment about not necessarily conceding.
posted by zutalors! at 11:16 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is exactly why I think the Al Smith dinner is going to be a bigger shitshow than the debate was.

I'm morbidly curious about what he and his team would find jokey.
posted by Jalliah at 11:17 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


A note on undecided voters:

I know some people who are having a hard time deciding about this election, but it's not because they don't see how awful Trump is. It's because they have years and years of hating and not trusting Hillary, and it's really hard to get past that.

The folks that I know who feel this way are almost certainly not voting for Trump. When they say they're undecided, they're saying, "all my options are terrible." They are trying to decide between voting for someone they thoroughly believe is untrustworthy, or throwing away their vote on a third party candidate who is also unpalatable, or sitting out the election, which they really don't want to do.

I'm lucky that I feel like I have a GREAT option, and am utterly delighted to have a candidate I can vote for enthusiastically ... but I can imagine it must be hard to let go of dislike for someone you've disliked for decades. I mean, it would be hard for me to work up enthusiasm for ... Nixon, if he were still alive? or Kissinger, for example, if he were running against Trump.

Fortunately, we know that people tend to dislike Hillary when she's running and like her once she's been elected - I think Wikipedia says she had a 74-76% approval rating in the Senate, even among her Republican constituents. So there's a good chance that many of these people who will either ultimately hold their noses and vote Hillary despite their years of dislike, or sit out the election entirely, will have a considerably higher opinion of her in four years.

I'm confident she'll win, but I won't be complacent until February 2025, so I'll be making more calls today. We've still got three weeks to rack up calls with Mefites United on the Hillary phone banks, so I'm going to see if I can help turn some of those swing states blue.
posted by kristi at 11:17 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


What I am worried about is those people who were on Samantha Bee saying that they would "keep watch" at the polls to make sure no Hillary supporters are influencing voters, one guy said he wouldn't mind trying to sway them for Trump, which let's face it, probably won't work, but another woman said she wanted to make sure people weren't coming back dressed differently (I totally see her mixing up different people of the same ethnicity) and nobody directly said it, but I'm pretty sure at least some of them will be armed.
posted by Tarumba at 11:18 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wordshore -- I would love to see a picture of your machinary with a slogan on it.
May I suggest: MACA -- Mow America's Cornfields Again!
posted by jclarkin at 11:18 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Washington Post says Donald won the debate.

Ed Rogers, a contributor to The Washington Post's opinion section writes that Trump won the debate. Rogers is the chairman of the lobbying and communications firm BGR Group, which he founded with former Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour, so, yes, it isn't surprising that he wants to believe that. However, that doesn't seem to be the editorial position of the paper.
In Ohio, Trump called for all American trade policy to run through one office called "The American Desk."
— Sopan Deb @SopanDeb
Ha. Trump wants to centralize trade policy, Bannon's a Leninist; before the week's out Donnie will be promising to collectivize the Kulaks.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:19 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Assuming for the sake of argument that Clinton focused too much on Trump's liabilities, how would the way she ran the campaign change the amount of leverage the "Warren wing" has over her?



the campaign hasn't been about Trump's "liabilities", but that he represents an existential threat to life, the universe, and everything else and is a dupe of the Russians.

there is zero room for any politician even establishing any difference from Clinton, because criticism of her is support for Trump.
posted by ennui.bz at 11:19 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


zzzz
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2016


after the election, things will be different. i think most people have different but hierarchical goals and one of the top ones is: defeat trump.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


From Ed Rogers Editorial:
Donald Trump won tonight’s debate. He didn’t implode, he didn’t blither, he didn’t continually interrupt Hillary Clinton and he didn’t even sniff much.
Apparently we watched a different debate. I wonder how Rogers spells Berenstain.
posted by dis_integration at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Keep in mind, re: millennials and that Politico piece, those are specifically undecideds they interviewed. They are not representative of the majority of young voters of any race. The vast, vast majority like Clinton just fine.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:23 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


there is zero room for any politician even establishing any difference from Clinton, because criticism of her is support for Trump.

This is just another way of saying that the primaries are over, and we live in a two-party first-past-the-post system. I wish that weren't true as well, but yes, it's true that tearing down the candidate you agree with most is enabling the candidate you agree with least. Let's try to change that, but as long as it's the case, let's not pretend it doesn't exist, either.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:24 AM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


So what sort of mental gymnastics are Breitbart readers going to go through to rationalize the fact that they support a Leninist?
posted by Tarumba at 11:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


And, like, Bernie gets it. He's campaigning for Hillary, but when asked questions (e.g. on Bill Maher last weekend) he answers honestly, noting Hillary's liabilities, unpopularity, etc. He knows she's the closest thing to his policies that's left in the race, and I assume he'll be going after her strongly after Inauguration Day.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:25 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I mean, Donald Trump also didn't bark like a dog, didn't juggle rotten oranges, didn't claim the moon was made of green cheese, and didn't even eat tennis shoes produced by child labor. So I guess he did okay.
posted by lydhre at 11:26 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump won tonight’s debate. He didn’t implode, he didn’t blither, he didn’t continually interrupt Hillary Clinton and he didn’t even sniff much.

Trump hit Rogers' sweet spot of what he wanted to hear in terms of message and delivery I guess.</differentStrokesForDifferentFolks>
posted by mazola at 11:27 AM on October 20, 2016


he didn’t continually interrupt Hillary Clinton

Substantive interruptions down slightly, fleeting interjections roughly double from second debate.
posted by Etrigan at 11:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Keep in mind, re: millennials and that Politico piece, those are specifically undecideds they interviewed. They are not representative of the majority of young voters of any race. The vast, vast majority like Clinton just fine.

Yes, there is no question in my mind about millennials supporting Clinton as such, more about some of the perspective surrounding the campaign even by some of her supporters. I'm definitely of the opinion that millennial politics are going to be vastly different than what we'd been used to pre-Obama. Not just because of them, but also because of concurrent shifts in tech, the media landscape, and so on.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:30 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


If they had a 4th debate Trump would be be curled up under the podium wheezing"wrrrrrrrrrrrroooonnnnggggggguh" into the mic at a pitch only actual dogs could hear until dogs burst into the room en masse and they'd eat him while he breathed "thank you" with his last breath.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:31 AM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


The idea that anyone could have watched those debates and would state in public that Trump "won" any of them boggles my mind. Unless of course you're a) on Trump's payroll and got paid up front, or b) desperately trying to convince yourself and others that the awesome power of Rich White Male Privilege is going to be enough to push a sub-replacement level man over the finish line ahead of a woman who you must know but can never admit even to yourself is a vastly better candidate.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I mean, Donald Trump also didn't bark like a dog ...

That was Plan B. It should've been Plan A.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, Donald Trump also didn't bark like a dog, didn't juggle rotten oranges, didn't claim the moon was made of green cheese, and didn't even eat tennis shoes produced by child labor. So I guess he did okay.

I like this idea of listing things DJT didn't do that would, in some universe, have caused the faithful to abandon him. Can we get a hashtag?

"Tonight, Donald Trump did not burst into flames, pull off a rubber mask revealing himself to be the creepy old owner of the amusement park, or say the name 'Beetlejuice' three times. He therefore clearly won the debate. #onlytwice #fuckyeahoxfordcomma"
posted by The Bellman at 11:33 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


John Scalzi: White Dudes, Trump, and America:
Dear other white dudes:

Last night on the Las Vegas debate stage Donald Trump, for whom statistically speaking most us white dudes are planning to vote for, refused to say whether he would concede the election if it went against him, as it almost certainly will. He says he’s doing that because he believes the election is rigged — it’s really not — but in point of fact the reason he said it is because he’s a petulant man-child who can’t believe his manifest destiny to be president is being thwarted by a woman who he doesn’t even find sexually attractive, which means that to him she’s hardly a woman at all. “Inconceivable!” he cries, like Vizzini in The Princess Bride, while Clinton, in the guise of the Dread Pirate Roberts, comes to take what he’s rightfully stolen (who is Princess Buttercup in this scenario? Why, the US, of course).
posted by palindromic at 11:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [32 favorites]


I'm morbidly curious about what he and his team would find jokey.

Based on the opening of his speech in Ohio today, apparently "interrupting the longest tradition of democratic peaceful transitions of power in the world" is on that list, so yeah, it could be strange.
posted by zachlipton at 11:36 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]




I'm definitely of the opinion that millennial politics are going to be vastly different than what we'd been used to pre-Obama.

Agreed with that sure. I think it's essentially going to be Obama-fans vs those who think Obama failed at key areas (like our buddy ennui.biz right here and others of that ilk). I hesitate to call it just left v centrist because I think the anti-obamaists often coagulate around some libertarian causes as well (like total Foreign Policy isolationism). It's going to be interesting. As I've been saying for a while, I hope we stay in the same party for a while, with young Democratic Socialists learning how politics works and getting as much done as possible rather than forming a new party or joining the greens, which would take a lot longer to enact any real changes to our financial and economic systems.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:37 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


No generation is going to be able to change much unless liberals vote more in midterm elections.
posted by zutalors! at 11:39 AM on October 20, 2016 [35 favorites]


Chelsea Clinton is on The Talk. They showed her the nasty woman clip and asked for her reaction. She said her first reaction added up to, "oh no, now no one will pay attention to the important things she is saying about social security!"

That pretty much sums up this election. Given any opportunity to actually focus on issues and policy, Trump distracts the media and the electorate with catnip and then bitches that no one is talking about the issues.
posted by xyzzy at 11:39 AM on October 20, 2016 [73 favorites]


As an audio guy myself I was so bugged by trump messing with his mic constantly early in the debate last night. Like he couldn't keep his hands off it. And he ended up pointing it up and closer to his face, after some freaking highly paid sound engineer had probably spent half an hour making sure it was ideally positioned for its directional pickup pattern. And of course after he had wiggled it where he wanted it (subconsciously wanting to make his voice louder, I think, and more intimate and croony -- you can observe that he leans far into the mic for his nasty interjections of "wrong" and "bitch" "nasty woman" and the like, which made it sound like he was whisper-shouting in your ear on my TV's sound system) we started hearing sniffs and lip noise and tongue smacking and the gravel in his exhausted voice. He did himself absolutely no favors by unprofessionally adjusting his own mic like that as a nervous tic.

Hillary of course never touched her mic at all, and remained at exactly the correct angle and distance from it to modulate her voice in a very comfortable range without having to shout (she has a low pitched speaking voice, which is a big reason people call her "shrill" when she tries to gain volume by moving up in pitch, and no doubt why others find her presence so commanding -- she's spent a lifetime navigating in a narrow zone of gendered vocal archetypes quite as much as visual/sartorial/hairstyle/whatever ones). One more example of backwards in high heels hard-won practiced skill to add to the list of course, but I notice that TV commentators rarely notice audio as a mediated phenomenon unless it goes out entirely or unless they are calling her "shrill" or "shouty."

Her sound was perfect last night and the engineers did a great job on making the crowd noise almost irrelevant to the TV feed.

Trump of course fucked everything up at his own expense. Notice he never used the word "stamina" last night? It would have called attention to the obvious fact that she was rested and relaxed and energetic and perfectly prepared and he was tense and exhausted and angry and manic and unprepared.

They ought to put the campaign communications team in charge of data security once she's president.
posted by spitbull at 11:41 AM on October 20, 2016 [142 favorites]


I'm trying to figure out his endgame with this whole "the election is rigged!" bullshit. I can only see four possibilities, in order of what I consider least to most likely, although they are not mutually exclusive:

1) Armed insurrection. He thinks that if he loses, The People will rise up and fight for him, the True Winner. I seriously doubt this is the case, but on the off chance that it is, I cannot see it going anything but badly for him.

2) Vote Suppression. He thinks that if he spreads enough of these stories, armed nutcases will hang around polling places and intimidate minorities on the grounds that they are "frauds". Would only have an effect in a close race. If this is what's up, either he thinks the race will be closer than it probably will be, or he started when that looked possible and now he's been riding the tiger so long that he doesn't feel like getting off.

3) Pay Attention to MEEEEEE. Addicted to the public spotlight, he cannot stand the idea that it will go away if he loses, and in that event will claim fraud, start frivolous lawsuits based on rumor and nonsense, play it out as long as possible, and will likely talk to ever-diminishing crowds and press about how he is the Secret Real President until the day he dies.

4) He Actually Believes It. As a not-very-bright natural conspiracy theorist being fed a diet of Breitbart News, he is so detached from reality that he genuinely believes that the election will be rigged (but only if he loses).
posted by kyrademon at 11:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


The most satisfying thing for me, come Nov 9th, is the thought that Donald J Trump, millionaire -- leader of the He-man Woman Haters Club will have lost -- to a Woman, and he will have to live with that every day of her Presidency. He won't just be a capital L Loser, he'll be the first old white dude to lose to a Woman. She'll be the first Female president and his name, forever, will be in the column named "runner up". I will cherish that thought every time I look back on this election cycle.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:42 AM on October 20, 2016 [41 favorites]


Soooo Texas requires all public university students to complete six hours of American and Texas government and well I will just note that this is not the panacea you might think it would be

I graduated from The University of Texas where n 1985 and had to do this. It was one of those courses with 300+ students in a giant lecture hall, and the version I took was taught by a team of three different history professors who were referred to as the "Three Stooges" and whose course was regularly cited as being one of the worst on campus in the campus newspaper's annual poll. I specifically remember arguing with the graduate student who graded my final exam when he marked an answer wrong on an essay question about the 22nd amendment (presidential term limits). I had said that among other things the Republican congress had pushed through the amendment in response to being unable to defeat FDR in 4 elections. The TA told me that was wrong because the Republicans in congress would never be that petty and vengeful. I wonder if he still feels that way. I felt vindicated later that year when for some reason I came across an interview with Harry S. Truman (which was over a dozen years old since he had died in 1972) in which he said the same thing I did. As you can tell this has stuck in my craw for thirty years now. I will say that I didn't think the course as a whole wasn't as bad as it was reputed to be, and I took a couple of other history courses that were quite good, so there's one bit of anectdata.
posted by TedW at 11:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


Does his Baldwinesque "wrong" interjections work with anyone? They're (a) rude and (b) unsubstantial.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


My headcanon Joe Biden is much less flashy. I see him as a shade tree mechanic who's kept his Slant 6 running like a top for decades.
posted by whuppy at 11:43 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


> I'm trying to figure out his endgame with this whole "the election is rigged!" bullshit. I can only see four possibilities, in order of what I consider least to most likely, although they are not mutually exclusive:

I'm gonna go with #3. #1 and #2 are just the unfortunate and potentially dangerous offgassing.

Imagine all the attention HRC will get when she wins. Every camera on her, all the news packages celebrating the historic moment of our first woman president. It would kill his ego.

The only way he can keep those cameras on him is to manufacture a mystery as to whether he will concede. My hope is it's just like his birther announcement: stale, dry nothingburger.
posted by mochapickle at 11:45 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


by turning the general election into a referendum on Trump, the Clinton campaign has been able to short-circuit any leverage the "left" in the Democratic party could have gained.

The election was turned into a referendum on Trump by the GOP primary voters who got him nominated. And by Trump being unlike any major party candidate for the presidency in living memory.

The college tuition proposals are a long-term retirement plan. Tweaking the ACA and raising the minimum wage are mid-term retirement plans. The Overton Window has been moved leftwards (Duncan "Atrios" Black deserves a lot of credit here for his USA Today columns in 2013.) If there are downballot GOP losses, they will move the GOP caucuses in Congress further to the right if they don't actively repudiate policies that got them elected, which seems unlikely in the short term. That increases the distance between the parties and decreases the chance of a bargain.

Most of all, the left now knows what Grand Bargain politics looks like and can push back early and often if Zombie Simpson-Bowles starts to rise up again. That is, those on the left who don't adopt the posture that betrayal is inevitable and desperately want to get their "I told you so" on the record before the election even takes place.
posted by holgate at 11:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


5) Setting up viewership for Trump TV
posted by Tarumba at 11:47 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, as a former musician who has worked with many soundmenpersons and mixed my share of live shows, I want to believe that an offended sound engineer, after the third or fourth time Donald touched and moved his mic, decided to say "fuck you, asshole," and kill the compression setting s/he was using to suppress sibilance, because in addition to mic proximity changes making Donald sound like shit last night, as the debate wore on his mouth noises and sniffs got louder to my ears.

Moral of the story is DO NOT FUCK WITH THE SOUNDPERSON.

It's like calling your surgeon a moron as the anesthesia kicks in.
posted by spitbull at 11:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [81 favorites]


Does his Baldwinesque "wrong" interjections work with anyone? They're (a) rude and (b) unsubstantial.

I've heard it speculated that he's just denying his opponents a clean soundbite, but really he's just a dick.

Really, really looking forwards to never having to hear about his boring fuck-up prone ass ever again.
posted by Artw at 11:48 AM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


Re the Trump endgame, my super longshot hope is that he goes full temper tantrum and tells his supporters not to vote in a rigged election, poisoning the GOP in the process.
posted by craven_morhead at 11:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


You guys! All those hours wandering around in the sun (or the dark) have paid off: right this minute I'm standing in the VIP pen for Michelle Obama's speech, about ten feet from the podium.

Luckily we weren't allowed to bring liquids in past security, otherwise I'd be peeing myself with excitement.
posted by Superplin at 11:49 AM on October 20, 2016 [105 favorites]


5 sounds the most likely there.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on October 20, 2016


5) He doesn't have an endgame in mind; he just knows the line plays well, so he keeps using it and building on it, without thinking through where it leads.

I think this is probably the case, but I also expect that he's already directing his lawyers to prepare to file a lawsuit in the event of his loss. Here's hoping it's thrown out for being baseless.
posted by dis_integration at 11:51 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Re the Trump endgame, my super longshot hope is that he goes full temper tantrum and tells his supporters not to vote in a rigged election, poisoning the GOP in the process.

...But that might make the outcome actually seem less legitimate, though. I think it's actually a nightmare scenario.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 11:52 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Does his Baldwinesque "wrong" interjections work with anyone? They're (a) rude and (b) unsubstantial.

My dad does the same thing whenever he's losing an argument, so.
posted by phunniemee at 11:55 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


And as Trump rants on stage about how he's the real winner, Rachel Maddow gets a huge smile, uncaps the protective cover over the red button sitting on her desk, gives it a whack, and the Curb Your Enthusiasm song plays as MSNBC plays him off into the sunset.

I'm kind of hoping the "play him off, keyboard cat" meme comes out of retirement for this one, personally.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


Any reference to Ed Rogers reminds me of this account of his McLean mansion, which got sold after his divorce from Edwina, which happened after her appearance on 'Real Housewives of DC', which happened after a reality show pilot where she demonstrated how to use sheets of dollar bills as wrapping paper.
posted by holgate at 11:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The fourth pre-debate poll out today, by the way, after the three disturbing-though-questionable Trump-slightly-ahead ones, shows Clinton at +12 (The Times-Picayune/Lucid -- which, however, is a tracking poll just like two of the Trump-ahead ones. I'm not sure how much to trust tracking polls this year. Several of them seem to be producing odd results.)
posted by kyrademon at 11:58 AM on October 20, 2016


> When do we get a new thread?
When everyone pinky swears not to post stuff they've read/heard/seen after it's been posted a gazillion times already?

> Re the Trump endgame, my super longshot hope is that he goes full temper tantrum and tells his supporters not to vote in a rigged election, poisoning the GOP in the process.
So the Trump <> GOP relation is more like the scorpion and the frog than the snake, because they'll both be going down.
posted by farlukar at 11:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think it's actually a nightmare scenario.

They are all nightmare scenarios; they contain Donald frigging Trump as a major party's nominee for President of the United States. The only thing, I think, that could be worse is if he had somehow become the Democratic nominee.
posted by Mooski at 11:58 AM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Imagine all the attention HRC will get when she wins. Every camera on her, all the news packages celebrating the historic moment of our first woman president. It would kill his ego.

The only way he can keep those cameras on him is to manufacture a mystery as to whether he will concede. My hope is it's just like his birther announcement: stale, dry nothingburger.


My hope is that once Clinton clinches the 300+ electoral votes to become the president-elect, the interest on whether Trump concedes becomes absolutely zilch outside of the traditional interval for a congratulatory phone call. As in, "He didn't call to congratulate her? What a dick!" As John Scalzi and others point out, whether Trump concedes is irrelevant, so we can start celebrating his irrelevance then.

Come to think of it, I bet he won't call her, whether he concedes the election or not. I wonder if one of his surrogates will do it for him.
posted by Gelatin at 12:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Apparently we watched a different debate. I wonder how Rogers spells Berenstain.

Brownstain
posted by xigxag at 12:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Romney was so sure he was going to win based on slanted polling that he didn't write a concession speech. Trump is even further inside the bubble.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


Donald Trump’s long feud with the Emmys: ‘The public is smart. They know it’s a con game.’. If you haven't seen it before, this contains the weirdo Trump Green Acres routine from 2006, should you like your fascism served up in overalls.
posted by zachlipton at 12:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Two things have occurred to me about this election:

1. Because the general election is a referendum on Trump's prejudices (not on Trump, but on the ideas that women are not fully human, rape is OK, immigrants are terrorists or rapists, etc), and because Hillary Clinton is likely to be the first woman president, space has opened up for a much more personal set of feelings about the candidate, and that worries me. The more we "like" the president (or the president's public face), the less room there is for the actual political - it gets subsumed in the personal. Making Hillary "our friend" is a great tactic on the Clinton campaign's part, but it's sort of the sunny face of Big Brother.

Clinton's media team is so on. I am intensely drawn to all the stuff - the different styles of buttons, the funny and moving campaign ads, the memes, the tweets. Just as I was really drawn to that tumblr, Texts From Hillary. We want that stuff to be true because it's funny and moving and appeals to our sense of what's right - we want to have an activist president who is really, sincerely passionate about the wellbeing of ordinary people, and who is smart and funny, and who is older but still smart and on her game. (Just seeing a woman who gets to be 68 and important and visible is really inspiring.)

I would like all that to be true. But the power of the myth that they are generating about Hillary is such that it will obscure her actual policies and give her cover for things that we would not want and would not support, just as it covers up the really disgraceful things she did as Obama's secretary of state and with his authorization. This will be even more true than the set of myths around Bill that gave him space to pass welfare reform and NAFTA and make policy behind closed doors with corporate lobbyists. I remember those years very well; they were politically formative for me.

I don't think it's that we're so panicked by Trump that we're giving Clinton total license; I think it's that the idea of Clinton as a good person who is on our side is a powerful idea and one we really want to believe.

It is much more attractive than what I think is the truth - that she is a powerful, competent, centrist Democrat with strong ties to the financial industry and a relatively aggressive set of ideas about foreign policy. It's not so much that I think she's a terrible person as members of the political elite go - I think that if we could see inside her head, we'd find that she believes she had morally sound reasons of state for doing what she did in Haiti, Honduras, etc. But that's how the Democratic political elite operates - they believe in themselves.

2. The desire for Hero Hillary reflects a readiness for far more transformative social change than people generally impute to Americans. We want Hero Hillary because we want what we think she'll bring - a strong social safety net, an end to racial injustice including the prison industrial complex, access to education for everyone, equality for women and girls, equality for LGBTQ people, a general clean-up of our political culture.

On the one hand, the myth of Hero Hillary can be used to cover up the reality of Politician Hillary. But on the other hand, the myth of Hero Hillary opens up a space to say, yes, we want this, we want a better, freer society, we are ready to fight for it.
posted by Frowner at 12:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [72 favorites]


Hillary is Jackie Robinson of our time
It was Branch Rickey, general manager of the then-Brooklyn Dodgers in the 1940s, who saw that baseball could not retain its greatness as our national pastime if it continued to limit itself to white players. He also knew the terrible abuse that awaited the first player to break the racial barrier. For that role he chose Jackie Robinson, whose athletic skill was matched by his calm, mature temperament...Robinson succeeded despite the slurs hurled at him because he had the right personality and he was well-prepared for the challenge.
...
For those who would moan about all the supposed baggage she brings with her, I say “good.” She would come to the job well-padded with many layers to fend off the inevitable slings and arrows. And her ability to take the abuse she will receive will make the next woman candidate’s run for the job a little less daunting. Let’s break the barrier in 2016!
posted by kirkaracha at 12:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


You can draw a common thread between, "I will ... accept the results ... if I win" and a lot of Trump's other behavior/statements. He can't rely on any outside process, unless he agrees with the decision. The courts overturn the convictions of the Central Park Five? Doesn't matter if Trump disagrees. Congressional hearing didn't lock up Hillary? Trump promises to keep trying until he gets the result he wants. Reneging on someone's payment after they did the job? Never mind what the contract said, does Trump feel satisfied with the result?
posted by RobotHero at 12:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Besides putting pressure on our politicians by protesting another thing we can do is get better at talking to each other and persuading people in the middle or even right that leftist economic politics not only are good, but that they work.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


We want Hero Hillary because we want what we think she'll bring - a strong social safety net, an end to racial injustice including the prison industrial complex, access to education for everyone, equality for women and girls, equality for LGBTQ people, a general clean-up of our political culture.

Agreed, a thousand times. My only caveat to that is that I do not really expect Hero Hillary any more than you do; I'm just prepared to accept 50% on any one of the items you've listed.

I don't know if that's sad or not, but there it is.
posted by Mooski at 12:10 PM on October 20, 2016


So what sort of mental gymnastics are Breitbart readers going to go through to rationalize the fact that they support a Leninist?

Not surprisingly, Breitbart doesn't really deal with that reality, or mention Putin or Nasty Women. (They did auto-launch the Trump campaign donation screen in a separate window, though.)

Breitbart is all "Gore challenged results too!" and "factchecking" that is of course blatant cheerleading, light on the facts. Also, Hillary makes Charles Barkley "uncomfortable," 13,000 full term babies are aborted each year, and Hillary's aides arranged for her to evade metal detectors at her Benhazi hearings. (OMG!!)
posted by msalt at 12:11 PM on October 20, 2016


I don't know if that's sad or not, but there it is.

It's not sad. It's an acknowledgement of political reality. Presidents aren't dictators. She can fight as hard as she wants but she still needs the votes of people who part of a party who absolutely abhor what she and the rest of us see as progress.
posted by Talez at 12:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Re the Trump endgame, my super longshot hope is that he goes full temper tantrum and tells his supporters not to vote in a rigged election, poisoning the GOP in the process.

This is an election boycott, an infrequent feature of precarious democracies. There was a recent one in Bangladesh that resulted in violence where dozens of people were killed. It's not a great thing to have.
posted by theodolite at 12:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Stevie Nicks wants to do an all-star version of “Landslide” at Hillary Clinton’s inauguration:
“Of course I’m for Hillary Clinton,” Nicks replied. “When she wins by a landslide, I could gather together the Dixie Chicks, Billy Corgan, and everybody who’s ever sung a version of ‘Landslide.’ It’s not up-tempo, but it certainly would get the message across.”
posted by palindromic at 12:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [51 favorites]


My hope is that once Clinton clinches the 300+ electoral votes to become the president-elect, the interest on whether Trump concedes becomes absolutely zilch outside of the traditional interval for a congratulatory phone call. As in, "He didn't call to congratulate her? What a dick!"

I think this is accurate. Trump cashing in this attention chip now is basically a payday loan that he'll have to pay back out of whatever attention the tantrum would have garnered on election night.

Everyone will know it's coming, and people are already pretty burned out on his bad behavior. It'll be more like "Here it comes. Yep, we all knew that was gonig to happen. Typical."
posted by msalt at 12:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I will say, though, that I was excited that she actually laid it out about the Supreme Court in the debate. I have my doubts about just how labor friendly any of her nominees will be, but it was very powerful to hear someone say out loud without apologies on the national state that Roe v Wade is important. That's something we almost never hear, and I think there's a lot of power just in saying it.
posted by Frowner at 12:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


Paul LaPage attacks Trump over concession controversy [real]
posted by humanfont at 12:17 PM on October 20, 2016


Al Franken lists his 10 favorite 'SNL' political sketches

"I believe I’m the only member of the Senate Judiciary Committee who’s ever played a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee (Paul Simon of Illinois) in a nationally televised comedy sketch."
posted by Esteemed Offendi at 12:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


By the way if you haven't watched this recently, this speech by Obama from this summer about the choice between progressivism and libertarianism is precisely the kind of persuasiveness both politicians and unofficial mouthpieces online need to get into, imo.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pets Who Hate Donald Trump (The Dodo)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


> However, that doesn't seem to be the editorial position of the paper.

Doesn't "seem to be" the editorial position of the paper?! For God's sake, the WaPo has been hitting Trump as hard as they can for months; they've been far better than the NY Times. Anyone who thinks it's conceivable the Post is supporting Trump has simply not been paying attention.
posted by languagehat at 12:22 PM on October 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


The Trump campaign sent out his prepared remarks with the alternate "zinger" marked "ALTERNATE."
Version released to press:
I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters, and to all of the people of the United States, that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic Presidential election — if I win!

Alternate version:
I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters, and to all of the people of the United States, that when the results come in on election night, I will accept — without delay or hesitation — the concession speech of Hillary Rodham Clinton.
And in my opinion, they weirdly (or not so weirdly, I suppose) went with the weaker statement. That "if" qualifier...
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:22 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


My main anxiety right now is that I think that any 'undecided' voter at this point is actually pro-Trump, because there's simply nothing to be undecided about, it's just that they know they'll look dumb if they say what they actually think. The only question is if they'll be too embarrassed to vote for him. So polls that have Clinton under 50 percent do make me nervous.

On the other hand, even working with that assumption, the electoral college still looks solid.
posted by tavella at 12:23 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Good grief, that is a 100% accurate quote: "I would like to promise and pledge to all of my voters and supporters and to all of the people of the United States that I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election ... if I win."

I suspect this is theater and part of his launch of Trump TV, which will make money bashing a Hillary Presidency and the left. His eventually concession will be painted (by him) as the powerful interests on the left forcing him to concede.

So Hillary will be President, but the headline will be filled with the lastest inane thing Trump has said or done. This will probably go in cycles as people get jumped about it and then bored with it. Meanwhile Trump will be laughing all the way to the bank.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]



Stevie Nicks wants to do an all-star version of “Landslide” at Hillary Clinton’s inauguration:


yikes. let's not do this, please.
it ain't over till it's over and all that.

this from a veteran of too many years of team sports, too many very good teams that lost games because they assumed going in that they'd already won them rather than kept focus on the situation at hand -- played the game to the end.
posted by philip-random at 12:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


“Of course I’m for Hillary Clinton,” Nicks replied. “When she wins by a landslide, I could gather together the Dixie Chicks, Billy Corgan, and everybody who’s ever sung a version of ‘Landslide.’

I like Stevie Nicks, but Billy Corgan goes on Infowars and talks about Hillary being a globalist, so he probably shouldn't be invited.
posted by airish at 12:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


Billy Corgan goes on Infowars

oh god

why am I disappointed

of course he does
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump is headline news every day because he's the Republican nominee for President. I think (I hope) he's vastly overestimating how much anyone is willing to pay attention to him after November 8.
posted by theodolite at 12:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Stephen Reacts LIVE to the Third Presidential Debate
I guess we’re all going to have to wait until Nov. 9 to find out if we still have a country...If Donald Trump is in the mood for a peaceful transfer of power, or if he’s going to wipe his fat ass with the Constitution.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Stevie Nicks wants to do an all-star version of “Landslide” at Hillary Clinton’s inauguration

THE WRATH. FROM ATOP THE THING!
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [28 favorites]


And in my opinion, they weirdly (or not so weirdly, I suppose) went with the weaker statement.

I figure that Trump realized that one of his paid speechwriters came up with a better joke than he could have, so he fired the little bastard and refused to use the joke.
posted by Etrigan at 12:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can anyone explain the mechanics of how asking one's followers not to show up on voting day affects the perceived legitimacy of the election? I've heard it said several times here that this is a thing that candidates in less stable democracies often do when they want to delegitimize their opponent's victory, but I don't understand how it works. It seems to me that if a candidate is losing in the polls, asks their voters not to show up, and then loses, people would just say, "Well of course you lost, you asked your supporters not to vote for you!" I don't see how that undermines the election; it mostly just seems like a spiteful and self-defeating tactic, like a sulky kid taking his ball and going home once he realizes he's about to lose a game.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


"I believe I’m the only member of the Senate Judiciary Committee who’s ever played a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee (Paul Simon of Illinois) in a nationally televised comedy sketch."

Senator Simon was a good man and one of very, very few American politicians I truly admire. He took some positions that I think were wrong (pro-V-chip, for instance) but he was one of relatively few people to vote against DOMA and welfare reform, and I believe that his record bears out that he sincerely tried to act for the good of the community, without consideration of his own advantage. He was an intellectual man, unlike most politicians who are merely cunning.
posted by Frowner at 12:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


*remembers incessant playing of Fleetwood Mac's "Don't Stop" from '92 and '96 Clinton/Gore campaign events*

*shudders*
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


She then finished off by mocking Trump’s 13% approval rating among Latino voters, while going on to say that many Latinos at this point see Trump as a “bad hombre” who also happens to be “loco.”

Oooh, I have a relevant story. Mr. S had a case recently of an gentleman with early dementia who was being evaluated for potential guardianship. Once a person is declared mentally incompetent to the point where a guardian is ordered, they lose several rights, including the right to vote. The man in question was elderly, had served in the US army, and originally came from Puerto Rico. Perhaps due to the dementia, his grasp on English has been slipping, so a family member was present to help translate. They went before the judge because the man was adamant that the ruling wait until after election day so he could make sure he voted for Hillary and stopped "El Loco."
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [86 favorites]


Can anyone explain the mechanics of how asking one's followers not to show up on voting day affects the perceived legitimacy of the election?

I suppose it depends on who's doing the perceiving. The same demographic headwinds that have been working against the Republicans will be in play in this election, so if a couple fewer white male Republicans vote, Clinton's margin of victory just gets even wider. Big deal.

I suspect Trump might be after creating a face-saving narrative for his own followers, in order to get them to stick with him after the election. Republicans hate losers, so Trump -- who obviously knows he's losing -- might be encouraging them to imagine that he may yet might have pulled it out, but they chose not to. As a protest. Yeah, that's the ticket!

I agree with the previous comments that outside his core of fringe lunatics, Trump is vastly overestimating the support Republican voters will give him when he proves to have tricked them into thinking he wasn't the loser he turned out to be. They printing will barely be dry on the Clinton victory party balloons before opinions start getting thrown around about how Trump wasn't really a conservative -- especially by Republicans desperate to distance themselves from the overt racism and sexism he embraced. Remember, conservatism never fails, it can only be failed.
posted by Gelatin at 12:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Alternate version:

That'll be the one he uses at the Al Smith Dinner, and it will go down other than well.
posted by holgate at 12:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can we sub in Broken Matt Hardy for Billy Corgan then?
posted by delfin at 12:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


For their next opening skit, I hope Saturday Night Live are on the phone right now to the Jim Henson Workshop and/or the cast of Avenue Q.

Colbert has it covered. This really, really makes me miss Craig Ferguson, though, because can you imagine Wavy Crocodile sending up the debate?
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


This isn't even Hermione vs Crabbe or Goyle. Hermione would be in her 30's now. She was a child/teenager during the books.

Its McGonagall vs Filch for headmaster. Immeasurably smart and capable woman who has been RIGHT THERE the entire time leading, being competent, being powerful being inside and working with a flawed system, versus an entirely incompetent hateful shite who literally has contempt for the people he’d be trying to lead with no expierence or ability to run the show that people only like -because- he's vile.
posted by FritoKAL at 12:43 PM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


Can anyone explain the mechanics of how asking one's followers not to show up on voting day affects the perceived legitimacy of the election?

Telling your people not to bother voting means saying, "we all know know what should really happen, but we're overwhelmed by that horrible conspiracy - what we want and need will never matter to them, so don't give them the satisfaction of pretending things are normal."

It's a mild sub-point of the "it's all rigged" claim, with a side of "don't let them push you around."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:43 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Not to defend him at all but I find the Trumps jerky self-centered defensive response which wa "I'll let you know later" to be interpeted by many media as an attack of the entire electorial system, perhaps even a coup to be, well just silly and just a reflection of a vast number of media-profesionals with not much to say.
posted by sammyo at 12:43 PM on October 20, 2016


kirkaracha: Romney was so sure he was going to win based on slanted polling that he didn't write a concession speech. Trump is even further inside the bubble.

I think Trump knows the loss is coming— there was a moment in the debate when he said "And this is what's caused the Great Migration where she's taking in tens of thousands of Syrian refugees, who probably in many cases -- not probably, who are definitely in many cases, ISIS-aligned. And we now have them in our country. Wait til you see -- this is going to be the great Trojan horse. Wait til you see what happens in the coming years. Lots of luck, Hillary. Thanks a lot for doing a great job."

That "Lots of luck, Hillary" really felt like a statement that she's going to be the one dealing with ISIS in the coming term, not himself. He knows that he has lost, and is doing as much damage as possible to simply spoil the game and to keep those die-hard Trump supporters filled with hate so he can mine them for attention and money well past the election.
posted by Static Vagabond at 12:43 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


Soooo Texas requires all public university students to complete six hours of American and Texas government and well I will just note that this is not the panacea you might think it would be

Every civics/American Government class I've taken--and about 1/2 of the history courses, too--has been taught by conservative Right-wingers who were perfectly comfortable injecting their opinions and biases into the curriculum. In my experience, history as an academic discipline attracts conservatives out of proportion to what one would find in other humanities.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


It seems to me that if a candidate is losing in the polls, asks their voters not to show up, and then loses, people would just say, "Well of course you lost, you asked your supporters not to vote for you!"

Sure, if you do it in a stable democracy that has legitimate elections. But keep in mind in some countries' elections actually are rigged; for the opposition to call on their supporters to not vote does not so much itself undermine the legitimacy of the election; it draws attention to the fact that the election was already illegitimate, regardless of whether or not the opposition's supporters voted.

Just because "the election is rigged" is an absurd claim in the United States in 2016 does not mean it is an absurd claim in all countries at all times.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


GOP Congressman reveals revolt against Paul Ryan, says efforts to oust him are ‘picking up steam’

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

inhales deeply

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
posted by zombieflanders at 12:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [69 favorites]


Its McGonagall vs Filch for headmaster.

if anything it's mcgonagall vs vernon dursley. at least filch had a legitimate understanding of magical people even if he was a squib. vernon loathed everyone who wasn't him and thought he was the smartest person to exist ever.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


Louie Gohmert would be amazing as Speaker of the House. He'd be the first person in that role who is not a native English speaker.



it may SOUND like English coming out of him but it is actually a carefully constructed set of chirps, squeaks and growls that only lizards can truly comprehend
posted by delfin at 12:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Not to defend him at all but I find the Trumps jerky self-centered defensive response which wa "I'll let you know later" to be interpeted by many media as an attack of the entire electorial system, perhaps even a coup to be, well just silly and just a reflection of a vast number of media-profesionals with not much to say.

This argument would have far more merit if he didn't spend the last several weeks ranting about how the election will be rigged and we need to watch out for shenanigans in cities that just so happen to have sizable black populations. He has, in fact, been attacking the entire electoral system on a daily basis. In a normal election, we don't even ask "will you accept the results of the election?" because we take it as a given. Did anybody doubt Romney would? Of course not. Trump was asked the question because it's actually a legitimate concern given his "the election is rigged" talk every day, and his answer simply heightened that concern. The fact that he panders to the worst of his supporters with talk of "second amendment people" just makes it all the more frightening.

If the question were asked completely out of the blue, I can see some someone who thinks in a lawyerly way trying to weasel out of it. But that's not what happened here. It's a question with only one right answer, it was a completely foreseeable question, and he should have been prepared for it. "I'll keep you in suspense" turns a deadly serious matter into a game, and it's something plenty of people who aren't media professionals are pretty concerned about.
posted by zachlipton at 12:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


Since the Donald loves to play Stones songs at his rallies so very very much, I have a few new ones to suggest.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:52 PM on October 20, 2016


No, Donald Trump Isn’t Doing What Al Gore Did In 2000
Here’s a (very) condensed version of what really happened 16 years ago:

1. On election night, several television networks called Florida for George W. Bush, clinching the electoral college — although Gore would end up winning about 500,000 more votes. Gore called Bush to concede.
2. Then the networks uncalled Florida — and Gore unconceded, realizing that he was ahead in the popular vote and if he ended up winning Florida he would have won the election. The election was literally too close to call.
3. A legally mandated recount began.
4. Bush (not Gore) sued to stop recounts in some counties.
5. Gore sued to extend deadlines for recounts.
6. The Florida Supreme Court ordered a more extensive recount. Bush (not Gore) appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.
7. The U.S. Supreme Court stopped the recount.
8. Gore conceded.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [104 favorites]


No, no. The right comparison for Donald Trump is Gildelroy Lockheart. Takes the credit from others and doesn't pay them. Has a massive sense of entitlement. Is seen as very good at things he only does in fiction (reality TV).
posted by Francis at 12:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


I feel dirty for having even the mildest of thoughts, but I just can't shake this nagging feeling that it's an attention grab that got out of hand and he's trying as hard as he can to throw it and he can't be crazy enough to make the actual crazies leave him alone.

Am I being too kind?

I'm being too kind.
posted by vbfg at 12:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Has there been any reporting on the order of speaking tonight at this Al Smith Memorial Dinner? I'm not seeing it mentioned and it seems like it could be a big deal in terms of how newsworthy the event ends up being.
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


You're being too kind.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


A concise and cogent summary of the events of the 2000 election, kirkaracha.

Unfortunately, "Gore did it first" has fewer words.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


kept his Slant 6 running like a top

Yeah but in my fantasy he turbocharged it. And now it's a stealth V8 killer.
posted by spitbull at 12:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Here's how someone who totally isn't Trump could have answered the question without giving up any sort of moral highground if, god help us all, things were close on election day: "our elections are run by hardworking state and local officials across the country who work hard to ensure we have a fair and transparent process. They're going to do their jobs and the legal process will certify a winner of this election as it has throughout our history, and I will, of course, accept that decision." Given Bush v. Gore, there's plenty of room within "the legal process" to make whatever arguments you feel you need to make later without preemptively putting the results in jeopardy weeks before election day.
posted by zachlipton at 1:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


No, no. The right comparison for Donald Trump is Gildelroy Lockh[e]art.
and
Unfortunately, "Gore did it first" has fewer words.

Well yes, of course! We do know that Lockhart's Memory charm backfired. Finally we're getting some answers here!
posted by Namlit at 1:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


My headcanon Joe Biden is much less flashy. I see him as a shade tree mechanic who's kept his Slant 6 running like a top for decades.

I...I can actually see this. He'd be the old timer on the MOPAR forum who has seen it all and when you come in describing the funny noise your car is making he just casually coughs up a diagnostic flow chart and says, but it's probably X and is right about 9 times out of 10.

Only the slant 6 is the United States.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 1:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


It takes a majority vote to be elected Speaker. If nobody gets a majority, they vote again. If the GOP holds on to the House, and they rebel against Ryan, they could be voting for awhile. In 1855-1856, prior to a solid two-party system, they voted 133 times.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:05 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


but it's probably X and is right about 9 times out of 10.

And the tenth time is only because he forgot we switched to unleaded gas.
posted by spitbull at 1:07 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


If Trump were really trying to throw it he'd have the Duck Dynasty guy or something as VP
posted by zutalors! at 1:11 PM on October 20, 2016


I'm trying to figure out his endgame with this whole "the election is rigged!" bullshit. I can only see four possibilities

I also think there's something most people missed because of the bluster around the tangerine feverdream.

6) Pairs with Roger Ailes to start TrumpTV, which creates the groundwork for Donald Trump Jr. to build a following and make a run for political office. Something like governor in CT, NY or NJ.

In fact, DJTJR was specifically asked last night in the spin room when he was going to run for office.

Trumpisim seems like a trash can fire that is going to smolder until it can find some more fuel to blow up in our face again.
posted by herda05 at 1:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


So what happens if the House has no Speaker? A gap in the line of succession, sure, but anything else?
posted by maudlin at 1:12 PM on October 20, 2016


I feel dirty for having even the mildest of thoughts, but I just can't shake this nagging feeling that it's an attention grab that got out of hand and he's trying as hard as he can to throw it and he can't be crazy enough to make the actual crazies leave him alone.

I don't think this is the case. I think Trump wants to be president. In much the same way a small boy wants to be Superman for Halloween, of course, but he seems to genuinely want to play the role of president in the same manner he's played the role of business tycoon and reality tv actor -- and for that matter, father and husband: as one big narcissistic wankfest. He'd delegate everything, refuse to do anything he didn't want to do, scream at people if anything displeased him, take credit for whatever he thinks is a success, blame his failures on everyone else, and claim to be the best president in history regardless of how much evidence there was to the contrary.
posted by orange swan at 1:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [43 favorites]


The Real Message of Trump’s Election Comments: I’m Going to Lose
If Trump believed that he still had a realistic hope of winning, this was his opportunity to act Presidential, to attempt to convince undecided voters, if there are any left, that he has the chops to enter the Oval Office and take charge of the nuclear codes. (Clinton, as usual, reminded people about those.) Early on in the debate, when Trump was restraining himself, this appeared to be his strategy. But, by reverting to conspiracy theories and openly threatening to call the result of the election into question, he made plain that, at this stage, his primary goal is to find someone other than himself to blame for what he, along with virtually everyone else in the political world, evidently sees as an impending defeat. Trump entered the race as a can-do businessman intent on restoring the country to greatness. He’s going out as a sore loser, raving at the world, threatening to unleash chaos.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Incidentally I've been reading the Reverend William Barber II this week. He's not in my faith tradition but still important to read regardless. One of the things he starts off with before he gets into his own memoir of Moral Mondays is his theological and family background. On the theology side, he says that the need and the demand for justice is one of the eternal unifying threads of the Christian tradition. On the family side, his living memory puts him at the third generation of social justice activism. Right in the first dozen pages, he says it's a long fight, and one that's going to be never-ending. In Barber's theology, the call to justice will never be completely satisfied.

Clinton is the better candidate. She's not the perfect candidate, that was clear from the debate. She's not going to fix the worst problems, she can't. I have no doubt that protests against injustice will continue, and they should. Some of them will be against state government, some against the federal government. That will include direct action and civil disobedience. I don't know if I'll be called in that way, but those who do have my support. I suspect Barber will be called again.

But, I have little doubt that Trump as president would greatly increase the risk that those called will end up in the morgue rather than in lockup. We're talking a difference between a party willing to share the podium with a man who has gone to jail for his beliefs, and a party demanding citizenship dragnets and loyalty tests. So when Barber, a man who will never be completely satisfied as a matter of experience and faith, takes the podium to say that my vote Clinton is a needed part of that process, I'm inclined to listen.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]




Re:speaking order at the Al Smith dinner. Everything I've read is Clinton first. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by thebrokedown at 1:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


You might have seen Hillary's "Mirrors" ad (30 secs).

Even if you have, you should watch it again, then watch Kathy Griffin's "remake" (NSFW Language)
posted by Short Attention Sp at 1:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


GOP Congressman reveals revolt against Paul Ryan, says efforts to oust him are ‘picking up steam’

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Not to rain on anyone's Suffering Ryan parade, but we're only funded through Dec 9 of this year. A House revolt against Ryan with this ticking deadline is a huge potential shitshow... even compared to the normal "functioning" of the House.
posted by phearlez at 1:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm listening to Sam Seder's Majority Report podcast. They're playing the whole debate and making comments MST3K style. Recommend.
posted by zutalors! at 1:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, fellow Gen Xers. Have we failed the Millennials? I remember being a young adult in the Clinton years when it was made cool to care about racism, gay rights, gender equality, the environment and other lefty causes. I think we took it a bit for granted because there was a huge backlash with W, and most of Gen X seemed to just collectively shrug and shuffle back to their vinyl record collections. Not everyone, of course, that's far too general a statement to make, but I certainly saw my peers disengaging in the political world. In a way, we had been brought up for disappointment. We were told that to expect Social Security, job security, housing security to be available to us would be naive. In a way, we were used to being failed by institutions, so we comforted ourselves with private institutions of culture and "enlightened" consumerism.

Now I see plenty of young adults who believe that there's no appreciable difference between Clinton and Trump and I just, don't even know where to begin. When college kids tell me that if they can't vote for Bernie, they'll vote for Trump I can't square that. What can we do to start turning things around?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 1:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


The House could become institutionally paralyzed until it found a candidate that a majority of its voting members supported as speaker.

And how would we distinguish this institutional paralysis from the present state of affairs?
posted by zachlipton at 1:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clinton owes nothing to Sanders or Warren for her probable victory. She has had no reason or motivation to make any deals in exchange for support/voters.

The New Republic Wikileaks article you quoted to bolster this point actually undermines it. It in fact comes to the exact opposite conculsion, saying that the Warren wing of the Democratic party has now gained signifigantly more influence within the party and is well positioned to influence appointment decisions in the discussions going on behind the scenes:
In 2008 the fight was invisible and one-sided, and the fix was in. In 2016 both sides are angling to get Clinton to adopt their framework. Those predisposed to consider Clinton some neoliberal sap might not agree, but this is actually a live ball. Presidents lead coalitions, and they have to understand where their coalition is and how things change over time. Peter Orszag this week suggested a trade-off: Give the Warren wing its choices on personnel, in exchange for more leeway to negotiate an infrastructure package with Republicans that gives big tax breaks to corporations with money stashed overseas. While that deal needs more detail, it reveals the power the Warren wing has, relative to the Obama era, to make significant strides on appointments.
Which actually makes a lot of sense to me. If HRC is indeed a canny politician who twists in the wind to stay in power, then throwing a few bones to the Warren wing is likely to happen, because it is politically expedient, allowing her to consolidate her party, and if she's going to get anything done she'll need their full backing. Being seen as helping Wall Street won't get her anything on her left, and the Republicans aren't going to give her bubkis. Her best chance is to win with a big enough margin to take the Senate and leave an extremely narrow margin in the House.
posted by Diablevert at 1:23 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]




In '56, they eventually allowed a plurality to elect a speaker...after two months.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:25 PM on October 20, 2016


Pelosi will be the next speaker of the house, despite not being a member of the Majority party. Her own party will vote in lockstep, and will be able to attract enough votes from primary-proof Republicans in moderate districts to seal the deal. Enough is enough is too much.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Every civics/American Government class I've taken--and about 1/2 of the history courses, too--has been taught by conservative Right-wingers who were perfectly comfortable injecting their opinions and biases into the curriculum. In my experience, history as an academic discipline attracts conservatives out of proportion to what one would find in other humanities.

I strongly suspect this is a manifestation regional or state culture. Virtually all of the history & poli sci people I've known as a history major and a social studies teacher (with the exception of my high school gov't teacher in the '90s) is pretty clearly left wing. A lot of them are wwaaayyyy left wing.

Like I'm pretty damn liberal myself, but sometimes I want to ask my fellow history teachers to dial back the hippie bullshit a notch 'cause they're scaring me.

Mileage varies dramatically.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


The president speaking live in Miami right now. Hit em with the "Don't Boo....Vote!" line. Then said get your uncle to vote. And get pookie. And Javier. Booing doesn't do you any good! Trump can't hear you from here. ....But he can hear you when you go to the ballot box and VOTE!

I love it.
posted by cashman at 1:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


primary-proof Republicans in moderate districts

So you're stipulating that this Speaker election will be held in 1974?
posted by Etrigan at 1:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think that the The Rules of the House specific an order of succession for a Speaker Pro Tem until a new speaker is elected. The current speaker provides a list of members who will succeed him as Speaker Pro Tem in the event that the office is vacated.
posted by humanfont at 1:29 PM on October 20, 2016


Interesting, SDB. I've never experienced the educational system outside of FL. I would have loved to have had a hyper-lefty history class to wash away the memory of the 8th grade American Government teacher who praised Pat Buchanan to the class.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 1:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Obama in Miami: "Republicans used to yell at me for just talking to the Russians, but now they're fine with their candidate having a bromance with Putin." [real]
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [68 favorites]


"how would w"e distinguish this institutional paralysis from the present state of affairs?"

Paralysis is different than psychosis, it takes an expert to make the diagnoses.
posted by Oyéah at 1:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Given the Fisherian runaway of the modern GOP, I'm thinking a lot of the sane ones might want to change their party at this point.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 1:36 PM on October 20, 2016




Obama's just going scorched earth on a) Republicans whose "toxic crazy" rhetoric of years past let Trump happen, who supported him, and who just walked away in the past week and b) Rubio and others who still support him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kitty Stardust, I know GenX loves to be guilty about everything we slacked / procrastinated about back in the day, but I don't think so. I work amid college students daily and have numerous friends and acquaintances under 30. Only the *very* fringe of that cohort is doing the Bernie-or-Bust thing, and of the three I know personally well enough to know their voting preferences, they're all voting Johnson (all 3 are white dudes aged 23-35 unsurprisingly). So, not to say those individuals don't exist? But they are a (albeit very visible and vocal) tiny minority, and none of the ones in my realm are Trump supporters. The Trump supporters are the dyed-in-the-wool raging red state lunatics on my Facebook feed that I went to high school with in podunk Ohio, who are increasingly upset about becoming irrelevant to modern society *just* because they happened to be born white and never bothered doing the work to gain a relevant education or modern cultural norms.

I caucused for Bernie in Boulder. I made bunches of new friends from every age cohort in that huge line that night. Even the just-barely-old-enough to vote high schooler there with her "I-marched-in-the-ERA-movement" grandma was hopeful for Bernie as a signifier of change and pulling the party leftwards. Every single one of us that I've talked to since the convention is voting Clinton (we see each other regularly... we are all neighbors after all, and quite a few caucus folks have also volunteered with me since for Hillary's campaign).

See, the thing is, apparently unlike the Trump supporters, we Bernie advocates are not, as a rule, sore losers.
posted by lonefrontranger at 1:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


Here is the seating chart for tonight's Alfred E. Smith dinner.

Oh my god. I hope Cardinal Dolan wears kevlar vestments.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]




> 1. On election night, several television networks called Florida for George W. Bush, clinching the electoral college — although Gore would end up winning about 500,000 more votes. Gore called Bush to concede.

I'm still pissed about that, and I continue to suspect Gore wasn't all that interested in winning.
posted by languagehat at 1:44 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Great news, lonefrontranger. I guess my observations are just a function of living in place that's pretty red and Podunk-y. That, plus the 20-something "deplorables" loudly over-representing themselves on Twitter.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 1:44 PM on October 20, 2016


Here is the seating chart for tonight's Alfred E. Smith dinner.

Oh my god. I hope Cardinal Dolan wears kevlar vestments.


And

Bloomberg!

lol
posted by Jalliah at 1:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]




Right, I agree, lonefrontranger, although I do think Gen X failed those who came after us in not aggressively protecting abortion rights and access.
posted by crush-onastick at 1:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


The phrase "undue burden" crushed any attempt to protect Roe v. Wade by Gen X'ers or anyone else. For example, because of this phrase, it was perfectly acceptable for the state of CO to require me to get a mental health professional I hadn't seen in six years to certify my competence to get an abortion. This slowed down the process by three weeks and I got the procedure on the last possible day, which happened to also be my birthday. I have never forgiven O'Connor for this mealymouthed phrase.
posted by xyzzy at 1:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [28 favorites]


Debate Moderators Under the Spell of Deficit-Obsessed Billionaire Pete Peterson
The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an organization that is virtually unknown outside of Washington, was nonetheless cited in four different questions during this year’s presidential and vice-presidential debates.

Moderators Elaine Quijano and Chris Wallace, seemingly unable to string together an intelligent thought about domestic policy on their own, outsourced their questions to a cabal of self-styled serious grown-ups who believe that advocating for cutting Social Security and Medicare makes them look like paragons of virtue.

[...]

The scaremongering about the debt masks an ideological agenda to stop any federal programs that commit the mortal sin of helping people, because the country sits on the precipice of becoming a Weimar Germany hyperinflation failed state. If rolling back those programs means preventing tax increases on rich people like Pete Peterson and his progeny, all the better.

Back on planet Earth, inflation hasn’t hit the Federal Reserve’s skinny 2 percent target in four years, and the real scandal is that America is blowing a huge opportunity to borrow at historically low interest rates and fulfill public needs. Experts across the political spectrum agree that the deficit is not a problem right now.

But, like a Halloween shop trying to come up with variations on the “sexy cat” costume, Peterson continues to dress up his efforts with different names and formats, seeking to energize a massive grassroots push for impoverishing the elderly.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [43 favorites]


When college kids tell me that if they can't vote for Bernie, they'll vote for Trump I can't square that. What can we do to start turning things around?

Eh. I don't think there's much to be done with a 20 year-old who either can't or won't see the difference between constructive and destructive change. At best someone like this just doesn't have the life experience to grasp the consequences; at worst they're too immature to admit that there might be consequences. At some point you just shrug and move on. More broadly, I guess, involvement in local and state level campaigns/other kinds of local organizing might be valuable instruction for a person like this, but, then, they are probably exactly the kind of person least likely to want to do it.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I will so miss Obama

"You're OK with your nominee having a bromance with Putin?: —@POTUS to the GOP

Edit: this is a Hillary tweet, i was having trouble linking
posted by waitangi at 1:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think that the The Rules of the House specific an order of succession for a Speaker Pro Tem until a new speaker is elected. The current speaker provides a list of members who will succeed him as Speaker Pro Tem in the event that the office is vacated.

I'm unsure, but I don't think it really matters. If they votes exists to kick Ryan to the curb then the votes are sufficient to keep any temp from moving forward a funding bill. I guess, MAYBE, the pro tem could turn to the dems to actually pass something but you'd best hope that's someone who doesn't expect anyone to ever cooperate with them in the future or hold a good post. And maybe not get reelected, depending on their district.

Shit, who knows? The loon caucus may have been enough of a pain - and potentially will get knocked loose if some decent gerrymandering reform/lawsuits proceed - that, following this current low-level civil war, they'll finally be told to STFU. I'm just not holding my breath.
posted by phearlez at 2:00 PM on October 20, 2016


So, fellow Gen Xers. Have we failed the Millennials?

No - there are simply too few of us to be heard and we were too distracted by crises. By the time that we were all in our mid-to-late 20's or early 30's and had anything approaching any kind of power, first the dot-com bubble burst (and you can't engage in activism as often when you're barely making rent), then 9/11 happened (when everything everywhere got tabled in favor of 'Murica) and by the time the dust settled from that, everyone was all "oh, yeah, the 20-somethings, what's up with them" and by that time it was the Millennials who were in their 20's and there were more of them and they started ignoring us.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [41 favorites]


Just got my ballot in the mail in Seattle! WA elections are entirely mail-in affairs now, unlike the stupid primaries. No polling stations.

And I'd get this kicked out right now, too, except it turns out a couple state elections are gonna take some serious thought. :/
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


We were told that to expect Social Security, job security, housing security to be available to us would be naive. In a way, we were used to being failed by institutions, so we comforted ourselves with private institutions of culture and "enlightened" consumerism.

Why was Gen X told this while Gen Y was told to follow their dreams? The fall of the Soviet Union was one hell of a drug.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:05 PM on October 20, 2016


So, fellow Gen Xers. Have we failed the Millennials?

I'm an intergenerational drama skeptic.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 2:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


Whaaat? My generation is the generation that marched on Washington for abortion rights and access in nineteen and ninety two. I know: I rode to DC from Florida in a feeble ancient Suburban packed full of everybody I knew, practically all of whom worked at women's clinics. We all slept in the same hotel room. We were not as aggressive as the people fighting for fetal rights, no. But my generation absolutely did try to protect abortion rights and access, and I have the embarrassing hand-lettered picket signs I stomped around Washington DC with to prove it. (One said "forced labor is slavery!" har. Get it? the other said "Live free or DIE!" and "DIE!" was inside a crudely drawn wire coathanger. Everybody kept coming up and asking if I was from New Hampshire.)
posted by Don Pepino at 2:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


Millennials, as has been pointed out several times, overwhelmingly prefer Clinton. We're not letting them down, they're not letting us down.

There will always be young people who believe in their ideals so deeply that total destruction feels like a more moral option than partial compromise. Some will grow out of this, some will double down on this again and again for their entire lives.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


I'm unsure, but I don't think it really matters. If the votes exist to kick Ryan to the curb then the votes are sufficient to keep any temp from moving forward a funding bill. I guess, MAYBE, the pro tem could turn to the dems to actually pass something but you'd best hope that's someone who doesn't expect anyone to ever cooperate with them in the future or hold a good post. And maybe not get reelected, depending on their district.

Which is where the fun begins. No one with an inkling of sense wants the job, let alone the Pro Tem job, because Democrats + Dingbats > mainstream Republicans and the Hastert Rule means the mainstreamers can't pass anything or elect a Speaker by themselves. This means that there is room for some savvy negotiating on the part of the Democrats, particularly if the Repubs retain the House but the margin is razor-thin.

Imagine Pelosi saying "Okay, so you're horrified that the Dingbat Brigade has effective veto power? I will direct just enough Democrats to vote for your mainstream Repub as Speaker -- IF that Speaker buries the Hastert Rule and allows our party to put some bills on the floor. There's your working majority and your opening to say 'we're not all extremists or Trumpbots over here.' Things that have to get done get done, my party gets more of a voice in the House, and we can get back to pretending like we're a real legislative body with debate and everything. Or you can let Gohmert over there run the show."

Sure, the right-wing media would howl like scalded apes and they'd have to say no. But dangling that in front of them would be fun to watch.
posted by delfin at 2:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]




Many people are chuckling at the fact that Trump's bio for the Al Smith dinner describes him as an "ardent philanthropist"
Shhh...I'm hiding under a table, wearing a white-tie tuxedo & carrying a bullhorn. I will emerge to fact-check at the appropriate time.
--@Fahrenthold
posted by zachlipton at 2:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [47 favorites]


No, no. The right comparison for Donald Trump is Gildelroy Lockheart. Takes the credit from others and doesn't pay them. Has a massive sense of entitlement. Is seen as very good at things he only does in fiction (reality TV).

DON'T YOU DARE COMPARE KEN BRANAGH WITH TRUMP.

(Besides, Lockhart's fate is too good for Trump. I don't want Trump to ever forget a single, humiliating moment of this.)
posted by chonus at 2:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Shhh...I'm hiding under a table, wearing a white-tie tuxedo & carrying a bullhorn. I will emerge to fact-check at the appropriate time.
--@Fahrenthold


Trump: Ladies and Gentlemen, before I begin, I'd...
Fahrenthold: Aha! You're not an ardent philanthropist at all, as you can see from these Newsweek articles!
Hilary: YA FAHRENTHOLDED!
Audience: DAAAAMN!
posted by PlusDistance at 2:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


There were some excellent Fahrenthold 451 jokes on #TrumpBookReport last night, including one about him calling 451 different charities.
posted by zachlipton at 2:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Michelle Obama is just killing it in Phoenix right now.
posted by mochapickle at 2:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Are networks showing the Al Smith dinner live? It appears so since they have countdowns (2:30 left now) but there's no actual listing that I can see.
posted by cashman at 2:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


when the froyo place tries its hand at political humor

But our marketing research indicated that women massively prefer frozen yogurt to sexual assault. I don't understand how this campaign could have failed.

[Fake]
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 2:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The "live" http://donaldjtrump.com widget showing incoming donations is just a 10-day-old sample XML file played in a loop.

Hah! They stole this idea from that Keanu Reeves movie about a bus that had to speed around the city keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped it would explode. I think it was called “The Bus That Couldn’t Slow Down.”
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh crikey, I guess I too am An Old, but can someone please, please explain "the wrath from atop the thing," from way back in this thread (and a few other recent ones).

Is it from Hamilton? Stranger Things? Something else I don't watch? Google is...unavailing.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:34 PM on October 20, 2016


It's a West Wing thing.
posted by tavella at 2:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh crikey, I guess I too am An Old, but can someone please, please explain "the wrath from atop the thing," from way back in this thread (and a few other recent ones).

Here you go!
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh crikey, I guess I too am An Old, but can someone please, please explain "the wrath from atop the thing," from way back in this thread (and a few other recent ones).

It's from The West Wing, explained in the wiki.
posted by zachlipton at 2:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


No, Donald Trump Isn’t Doing What Al Gore Did In 2000
Here’s a (very) condensed version of what really happened 16 years ago:

1. On election night, several television networks called Florida for George W. Bush, clinching the electoral college — although Gore would end up winning about 500,000 more votes. Gore called Bush to concede.
2. Then the networks uncalled Florida — and Gore unconceded, realizing that he was ahead in the popular vote and if he ended up winning Florida he would have won the election. The election was literally too close to call.
3. A legally mandated recount began.
4. Bush (not Gore) sued to stop recounts in some counties.
5. Gore sued to extend deadlines for recounts.
6. The Florida Supreme Court ordered a more extensive recount. Bush (not Gore) appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.
7. The U.S. Supreme Court stopped the recount.
8. Gore conceded.
posted by kirkaracha
The sad coda to this is Al Gore presided over the Senate session certifying the 2000 election results (AP Archive).
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


Are networks showing the Al Smith dinner live? It appears so since they have countdowns (2:30 left now) but there's no actual listing that I can see.

C-SPAN will carry it, starting live at 8:50 PM EDT. [C-SPAN event page]
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Millennials, as has been pointed out several times, overwhelmingly prefer Clinton. We're not letting them down, they're not letting us down.

There will always be young people who believe in their ideals so deeply that total destruction feels like a more moral option than partial compromise. Some will grow out of this, some will double down on this again and again for their entire lives.


No generation is homogenous. There will always be outliers.
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


The more popcorn I eat the more homogenous I get.
posted by Namlit at 2:44 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]




Can we sub in Broken Matt Hardy for Billy Corgan then?

BROTHER CHEETO

I KNEW YOU'D COME
posted by SpiffyRob at 2:47 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Re Clinton's "Millennial Problem" (which wasn't), I had an epiphany about this in talking to a friend of mine who very much isn't a Millennial, but who is an immigrant to the US who is voting in his first election this year.

I don't recall exactly when he came to the US, but I'm almost certain that he couldn't have moved here before the Duyba Administration. The first Democrat he saw elected up close and personal was Barack Obama. (I also *think* he moved here after the Bush/Kerry election, but I'm not positive that's the case.) One of the most well-liked Presidents of modern times, who almost all liberals can find common ground with.

So my friend is having trouble wrapping his brain around the idea that you have to just pick the best person for the job, even if you don't agree with them about everything. He feels like he has to hold his nose and vote for Clinton, because his only real frame of reference is how pumped everyone was to vote for Obama. He doesn't realize that Presidential candidates are much more likely to resemble either Bill or Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, or Al Gore, and that we've been incredibly lucky to have this genius charismatic scandal-free family man who has somehow managed to thread the liberal/progressive needle on basically everything for the past eight years.

My guess is that younger Democratic voters who've come of age over the last eight years think that Presidential candidates are supposed to be like Obama, and not that Obama was a miracle the likes of which we may never see again in our lifetimes.
posted by Sara C. at 2:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [60 favorites]


If Donald is willing to outsource all the details of the Presidency to Pence, I see no reason why those responsibilities couldn't be extended to include Pence conceding the race.
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


porn in the woods: when the froyo place tries its hand at political humor

Also, when the local Humane Society tries its hand at political humour:

Windsor humane society pulls down 'grab a pussy ... cat' advertisement
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I have left my liberal social work cohort in Chicago to visit my family in Louisiana for a week.

My grandmother is a fox only news person, who had tried to explain white slavery to me which I couldn't even or a reply to a and ducked out ASAP because my brain was dying.

My mother, who was married to crazy abusive guy for years, adds so much good to what Trump says. She was taking about Trump's comment with Little Haiti that he was trying to explain that he had spoken to the people in Miami and understands what they want as opposed to Clinton. She sees him with empathy and that he just doesn't communicate well.

So my PTSD is now at a 10.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


One of the happy side effects of the many hours I've spent reading these threads is that you all reminded me that The West Wing has been sitting in my Netflix queue for years. I missed the boat back when it was on the air, somehow, despite my life-long fascination with politics and love of tv dramas. As soon as I started watching it I was hooked. I've spent a good chunk of the last few weeks binge-watching the whole series. Thanks, MeFi. I would have never got around to watching it without you.
posted by joedan at 2:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


I still haven't watched all of the West Wing yet, and I too missed the boat the first time around. I was amazed at how much of it I had absorbed through osmosis over the years. It felt instantly familiar, kind of like watching classic movies that the Simpsons had referenced over and over for the first time.
posted by TwoWordReview at 2:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I see that Mark Meadows is again leading the Freedom Carcass against Ryan. This is a man who was handed his district on a platter by the post-2012 gerrymander, succeeding Heath Shuler, the bluest of Blue Dogs who had lost a ridiculous challenge to Nancy Pelosi's leadership, then decided to go back to lobbying for NC's near-monopoly electric company. And Shuler won the seat in 2006 from Charles Taylor, who owned a local bank (that went bust in the 2011) and still has a stake in a Russian regional bank that he founded with an ex-KGB colonel. What a district.

Meadows has a vastly overinflated sense of his own power (and mandate). The saddest part is that he makes Patrick McHenry look slightly more reasonable.
posted by holgate at 2:56 PM on October 20, 2016


joedan: Consider picking up the West Wing Weekly podcast if you want to go deeper, hosted by Hrishikesh Hirway and Josh Malina (who played Will Bailey on the show). Previously on MetaFilter.
posted by zachlipton at 2:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


The 2016 Race Is Over
...Trump demonstrated a near-complete lack of knowledge of the state of Second Amendment jurisprudence (or any critical aspect of governance). He promised to select “pro life” Supreme Court justices—an ideological fixity nearly all Republicans understand they can’t explicitly impose on their nominees, but that Trump is too dumb to know he’s not supposed to do. He objected to Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s criticism of him as a kind of insubordination; he called undocumented immigrants “bad hombres”; he continued to deny his support for the Iraq war and for arming allies with nuclear weapons; and he called the New START arms reduction treaty between the U.S. and Russia the “start up.”

This all transpired in the first 35-40 minutes of the debate, when a subdued Trump was supposedly at his strongest.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm about halfway through The West Wing and have been for ages. I'm stuck right around the point where Aaron Sorkin and Rob Lowe left the show, which means I never got to the election part of the series. Should I pick up where I left off, or is it just going to raise my blood pressure even more?
posted by Sara C. at 2:58 PM on October 20, 2016


Watching a live stream of Michelle's speech in AZ and I happened in at an opportune moment for me--I canvassed this morning in COS and got a packet in a part of town where almost no one was home, of 60 houses, 53 weren't home and I was feeling a smidgen sorry for myself because it's way more rewarding to actually encounter people and get to talk with them--and Michelle was talking about how few voters it takes to swing a precinct one way or the other. For Obama in 2012, he lost Arizona by an average of 63 voters per precinct. She talked about how important every volunteer effort is and then said, "We can do this here. So, let me just say this, do not let yourself get tired or frustrated or disgusted by what we've seen in this campaign. As you're out there working your hearts out, here's what I want you to be: please be encouraged, please be encouraged, if I leave you with one thing, be encouraged...we have every reason to be hopeful. So be encouraged. And remember that in difficult times, we don't give up, we don't discard our highest ideals, no, we rise up to meet them. We rise up to perfect our union, we rise up to defend our blessings of liberty, we rise up to embody the unwavering hope that keeps us going day after day, generation after generation, that is the power of hope. Don't forget that." I love her so much and I will do my very best to be encouraged.
posted by danielleh at 3:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [61 favorites]


Sara C, you should pick up where you left off. It changes a bit without Lowe and Sorkin, but it's still worthwhile.
posted by craven_morhead at 3:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


It depends. It gets much, much more soap opera-y after Sorkin left. I personally couldn't stand it and quit, but a lot of people like that style.
posted by tavella at 3:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


A rewatch of The West Wing from start to finish is very much part of my recovery plans.
posted by vbfg at 3:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


when the froyo place tries its hand at political humor

That's bad!

(But you get your choice of toppings!)
posted by entropicamericana at 3:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


So my PTSD is now at a 10.

On your way home if you want to stop in STL for a hug or shoulder to cry on or a coffee, or a beer, I'm sure we can set you up.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 3:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Can we go back to the Trump Foundation and the Veritas thing? That inFURiates me. The only thing this axis of evil needs is that gross Martin Shkreli fellow. I'd like to bang all three of their heads together like maracas.
posted by thebrokedown at 3:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


when the froyo place tries its hand at political humor
That's bad!
(But you get your choice of toppings!)


"Here's your problem. Somebody set this candidate for evil!"
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:10 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


KC, my wife has been wonderful ! I've also had way to much alcohol, thanks for the offer though.

I think it's the mindset that a show of masculine 'strength' comes with protection and intelligence because he'll scare away the bad and collect the good ( women). Its a mindset I hadn't heard explicitly stated, but it seems to make some since to the question why do some women support Trump.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:11 PM on October 20, 2016


For the like 6 people in the universe who are following Kurt Eichenwald's increasingly convoluted feud with Russian propaganda outfits (and/or his petty fight with a clueless young reporter who wrote and later deleted a false article based on a tweet, depending on who you believe), he has a new dispatch in Newsweek: How I Got Slimed By Russian Propagandist Site Sputnik. This is responding to Sputnik's Newsweek Journalist Claims US Intelligence Fed Him False Putin-Trump Conspiracy and I Am Vladimir Putin: The First Victim of McCarthyism 2.0, which responds to Eichenwald's original article Dear Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, I Am Not Sidney Blumenthal.
posted by zachlipton at 3:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


danielleh, thank you for your canvassing work! We live in the same community and it's heartening to see so much support for Hillary. You are making this a much nicer place to live.
posted by mochapickle at 3:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm reminded of something George Carlin said, which was "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

Think of how smart George Carlin is, and realize that even he has trouble with the difference between average and median.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [33 favorites]


I really didn't like West Wing season 5, but I'd pick up with the final episode to understand the beginning of season 6, and starting with the 4-5th episode of season 6 the election arc is definitely worthwhile, I lurved season 7, very satisfying ending to a series.
posted by skewed at 3:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]




Think of how smart George Carlin is, and realize that even he has trouble with the difference between average and median.

think about how smart george carlin thought george carlin was, and realize the dunning-kruger effect is a harsh mistress
posted by entropicamericana at 3:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


I got a hug from Michelle Obama so now I'm just gonna go die happy since I already voted and I've clearly hit my life peak
posted by Superplin at 3:23 PM on October 20, 2016 [190 favorites]


Field report: calling locals again. We switched to a focus on recruiting to GOTV. Not so much for us, but for the swing states. We already have weekend canvasing trips to the neighboring swing state, and we'll be doing that for the Mon & Tues of election week. Our calling hours have also expanded to 9AM-9PM.

A new thing I encountered: Some people appear to have a setup that texts you if you call. Never saw it before, but encountered it twice today. So now I have a small recruiting pitch saved in Notes that I can paste as a response.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


From the now-we-can't-have-fun-things department, Why You Shouldn’t Laugh at Donald Trump’s Hands.
posted by zachlipton at 3:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


>Trump national political director 'steps back' from campaign

>"I have not resigned but for personal reasons have had to take a step back from the campaign," Murphy said in a statement to POLITICO.

'for personal reasons I have had to take several steps back, in rapid succession, from this live hand grenade'
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [33 favorites]


Legit question about the no-fly zones. She doesn't answer about shooting planes down.

Currently, the fear that a Clinton administration would spark a war with Russia over Syria/the Ukraine is mostly held by Trump supporters and Jill Stein supporters. Once this election is over, this is something that we need to hold the administration accountable to. While fears of WWIII are hysterical, pressure needs to be put on the White House to not escalate tensions with Putin. Just because the Kremlin was interfering with our election does not give carte blanche for brinkmanship against a nuclear war. The United States can lodge a complaint at the U.N. like any other lesser country we've wronged.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


From the now-we-can't-have-fun-things department, Why You Shouldn’t Laugh at Donald Trump’s Hands.

I don't laugh at Donald Trump's tiny hands because I think it has anything to do with his penis.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 3:34 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also as someone who's being exposed to anti-Semitism for the first time via this election lines like "It leaves you, while wearing shoes too big and feeling terrified of going bowling or even just taking off your shoes when you enter someone’s house, with the sense that you’re damned to a lifetime of incapability." maybe don't carry the weight the author things they do.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 3:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]




The Syria no-fly zone idea reminds me of Kennedy on the Berlin wall:

Some demanded that the Western Allies tear down the wall. Although Kennedy briefly pondered the suggestion, he realized it was impractical. “We could have sent tanks over and knocked the Wall down,” he mused. “What then? They build another one back a hundred yards? We knock that down, then we go to war?”

I.e., yeah, it might be a righteous idea in isolation, but are you actually prepared to follow through with all the consequences? That is, shooting down Russian planes and what comes after.
posted by tavella at 3:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'll accept the risk of that Mexican illegal alien crime spree over having Putin with little buddies Trump and Assad for our overlord
posted by knoyers at 3:36 PM on October 20, 2016


The whole point is that regardless of who you vote for, you can continue to disagree with that candidate after they are elected, and organize accordingly in the case they pursue policies you disagree with. If we can have preemptive war, why not preemptive peace?
posted by Apocryphon at 3:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


A new thing I encountered: Some people appear to have a setup that texts you if you call.

Life changing.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I really can't imagine how to make a non-offensive Nasty Woman costume, unless you just do it as HRC cosplay.

Some sort of HRC/Divine crossover crossdressing springs to mind.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:43 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


That is, shooting down Russian planes and what comes after.
I mean, there may be a way to get it done in a way where no planes are actually shot down. It would involve building a massive coalition willing to sanction Russia in a way that would further weaken their already disastrous economy in order to apply enough pressure that Russia concedes to a small humanitarian zone and just declines to violate it.
posted by xyzzy at 3:44 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, Roger Stone is supposedly organising an "exit poll" in "Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Fort Lauderdale, Charlotte, Richmond and Fayetteville" and is currently recruiting volunteers. Given Stone's reputation, it sounds either like trolling or a dirty trick designed to get around the consent decrees that stipulate the kind of poll-watching the RNC and local GOP branches can do.
“It sounds like he’s organizing a goon squad that could potentially be intimidating voters in minority areas,” said [Rick] Hasen. “It does raise the threat of violence on election day at polling places. People are going to have to be vigilant.”
posted by holgate at 3:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hugh Laurie talking about Americans' opinion of Clinton on Colbert's show: "It's as if I missed the first reel of the film where she burned down the orphanage."
posted by peacheater at 3:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [86 favorites]


Now I see plenty of young adults who believe that there's no appreciable difference between Clinton and Trump and I just, don't even know where to begin. When college kids tell me that if they can't vote for Bernie, they'll vote for Trump I can't square that. What can we do to start turning things around?

QFT. I realized, after I got some bitchy looks after I made some jokes about Obama being a demon, that I needed to shut the fuck up if I didn't want to hear from my dean. So now I just avoid it unless I'm just information-seeking (asking for an explanation of what the fuck this Pepe thing was, e.g.).

So this guy who I guess missed my awkwardly trying to connect with the students about politics, because I was like *the thing about in-text citations--yes, question over there* he wanted a referendum on the quality of the debate.

So I'm like, I've already annoyed people, so I said, *let's hear from folks who watched it.*

And aside from one brave lad, who was all *Hillary was great! She did great!* Allll the other students who wanted to talk about it wanted to say how awful they both were.

And I was like did you really not see that cokehead incoherently try to smash the fundamentals of this country. Did you really not see that fucking sentient bag of worms lie, bluster, twitch, and insult his way through the debate. Did you not see HRC with her facts and figures.

I really don't fucking get it.

And it's almost like the young ones are amplifying this thing already in the air. I hear adults talk about how "both sides are scary" and of course this is what comes out of the mouth of their kids.

I don't know why I'm angry when he's so clearly losing, but this failure of public discourse really, really, really bothers me. There should simply be no more "but both sides" shit.

The man is a menace and a monster and honestly? I really hope he hates every moment of being beaten by a girl
posted by angrycat at 3:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [51 favorites]


The last thing the RNC wants is to have that court order extended. This is disastrous for them.
posted by xyzzy at 3:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really can't imagine how to make a non-offensive Nasty Woman costume, unless you just do it as HRC cosplay.

Several friends on my Facebook wall wrote "Nasty Woman" on their faces with lipstick. Otherwise, they looked like they always do. Perhaps that's the costume?
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:47 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


From the Broadway/Stronger Together fundraiser earlier this week, Lin-Manuel Miranda and Renée Elise Goldsberry rap about Hillary Clinton.
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I really can't imagine how to make a non-offensive Nasty Woman costume, unless you just do it as HRC cosplay.

Some sort of HRC/Divine crossover crossdressing springs to mind.


I tend to think of Janet Jackson from the Nasty video, but that may also be too obscure.
posted by Diablevert at 3:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


And it's almost like the young ones are amplifying this thing already in the air. I hear adults talk about how "both sides are scary" and of course this is what comes out of the mouth of their kids.

Try reading the Newsweek op-ed I linked to earlier. It's descriptive, if not prescriptive.

I don't know how old your class is, but I've spoken to people in their mid- to late- 20's, and while they all agree that Trump is worse, they don't think much of Clinton, either. I think partly because Trump is just so outlandish that he's become a cartoon, less of a bogeyman to fear, and more of a clown to be dismissed and ridiculed. They aren't angry or afraid of him because they've already written him off from the start. They're angry at Hillary because she's a real person, and thus held to a higher standard of critique.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just got phone canvassed by what sounded like a young black man calling for HFA. I was like, YES! I'm totally voting and calling and thank you so much for doing this and I hope you don't get any mean people! And he laughed. And now I should probably go make some calls for the Mefi Team.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


A friend of mine just texted me to inform me that Project Veritas was funded by the Trump Foundation. He paid a felon to do a hit piece on his political opponent to use in a national debate using a charitable organization.
posted by xyzzy at 3:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [25 favorites]


In the "election self care department" I've found The New Pornographers album "Brill Bruisers" to be wonderful heart/head medicine.
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


A friend of mine just texted me to inform me that Project Veritas was funded by the Trump Foundation. He paid a felon to do a hit piece on his political opponent to use in a national debate using a charitable organization.

All 100% legal. Project Veritas is a 501(c)4.
posted by Talez at 3:54 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Think of how smart George Carlin is, and realize that even he has trouble with the difference between average and median.

Aren't IQ measurements normally distributed, per definition?
posted by effbot at 3:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


All 100% legal.
I know. But it feels incredibly wrong.
posted by xyzzy at 3:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Some of Hillary's comments on No Fly Zones and Aleppo in the debate. In my opinion they reflect a measured and pragmatic approach, not the comments of someone who is going to start WWIII.
WALLACE: Secretary Clinton, you have talked about -- and in the last debate and again today -- that you would impose a no-fly zone to try to protect the people of Aleppo and to stop the killing there. President Obama has refused to do that because he fears it's going to draw us closer or deeper into the conflict.

And General Joseph Dunford, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, says you impose a no-fly zone, chances are you're going to get into a war -- his words -- with Syria and Russia. So the question I have is, if you impose a no-fly zone -- first of all, how do you respond to their concerns? Secondly, if you impose a no-fly zone and a Russian plane violates that, does President Clinton shoot that plane down?

CLINTON: Well, Chris, first of all, I think a no-fly zone could save lives and could hasten the end of the conflict. I'm well aware of the really legitimate concerns that you have expressed from both the president and the general.

This would not be done just on the first day. This would take a lot of negotiation. And it would also take making it clear to the Russians and the Syrians that our purpose here was to provide safe zones on the ground.

We've had millions of people leave Syria and those millions of people inside Syria who have been dislocated. So I think we could strike a deal and make it very clear to the Russians and the Syrians that this was something that we believe was in the best interests of the people on the ground in Syria, it would help us with our fight against ISIS.
posted by humanfont at 3:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


And it's almost like the young ones are amplifying this thing already in the air.

I wrote and deleted a paragraph about this. That thing in the air started shortly after Bill Clinton was elected, ending 12 years of Reagan/Bush neo-liberalism (not that it was called that at the time). My employer then subscribed to the Wall Street Journal, which hated the Clintons, despite the fact that the economy was booming for most of this tenure.

What started then was the R's refusing to recognize that they were no longer the naturally governing party of the country. We see that now in the Senate's refusal to listen to the will of the people and discuss Garland's appointment to the SC. We see that in the periodic hostage takings of the economy by the R. congress.

That all started when Bush was defeated, and it's permeated the political air of the America since then, to the point where practically a whole generation doesn't know what it is or where it's coming from, just that there's something there.

Not the whole generation, of course. Both my kids think Hillary is awesome, but then the air up here in Canada is different.
posted by morspin at 4:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


I know. But it feels incredibly wrong.

The sole purpose of 501(c)4 is to get tax deductions on political contributions. They're all slimy.
posted by Talez at 4:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I really don't fucking get it.

the benefits of ugh BOTH SIDES are that you're never made to look like a naïf or a dupe by liking or god forbid believing in a public servant who ends up letting you down; also your cynical disregard for every point on the political spectrum means you can sort-of-agree and hang with people of varying ideologies without having to negotiate any conflicts over your affirmative beliefs scraping up against theirs

it's not always stupidity, sometimes it's just low-grade chickenshit
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:05 PM on October 20, 2016 [66 favorites]


Think of how smart George Carlin is, and realize that even he has trouble with the difference between average and median.

think about how smart george carlin thought george carlin was, and realize the dunning-kruger effect is a harsh mistress


Luckily he wasn't a comedian making a simple joke to a general audience for a comedy special!
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


I'm 31 so I'm at the edge of millinials. I remember Hilary Clinton and Bill Clinton from his presidency and was barely old enough to catch some of the infidelity scandal. I do come from a very conservative bible belt family, so there was tons of talk about that. I also became an adult with talk regarding DADT and how welfare reform really messed with people (because Social worker) Now, I know many of these things have context, and have read about how Hilary views have become more progressive over the years. But those are things I've actively saught out, and really haven't been a part of the political discourse aside from Hilary is not Bill. The subtle context of the decisions around welfare, DADT and such I was not old enough to understand at enactment, but became aware of their impact 10 to 15 years later when public opinion about these things had shifted. In addition was not old enough to experience economic benefits of a surplus in any meaningful way.

So I get why millinials are hesitant, but I don't get why they would vote for Trump instead.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Literally no one, or almost no one, is talking about voting for Trump. You can vote for a candidate and still dislike them and what they stand for ughhhhhhhhhh
posted by Apocryphon at 4:11 PM on October 20, 2016


I'm getting set to watch the Al Smith Dinner which starts 1 hour 40 minutes. C-Span is streaming the event.

It is hard to imagine how that is going to go. A wounded Trump is an ugly, vengeful Trump.

While you are waiting, you could catch up on Donald and John.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, fellow Gen Xers. Have we failed the Millennials? I remember being a young adult in the Clinton years when it was made cool to care about racism, gay rights, gender equality, the environment and other lefty causes. I think we took it a bit for granted because there was a huge backlash with W, and most of Gen X seemed to just collectively shrug and shuffle back to their vinyl record collections.

uhhh, speak for yourself? Gen X isn't enough people to matter like this, anyway.

A lot of the war on women grew from the tea party 2010 wave, as Samantha B argues.
posted by eustatic at 4:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


On Chuck Todd's show they talked a lot about Trump not accepting the election results, and at the end he said that everyone was so caught up with that comment that another thing was "almost missed." I was eager to hate-watch this stealthy remark and it was...the "Nasty Woman" comment.

Chuck Todd, you are awful. I mean, even if you personally almost missed it because you were distracted by something, how, almost 24 hours later, can you possibly characterize that statement as being under the radar. Have you not talked (or listened) to any women today? Or any decent men? I just can't believe he presented this almost as an afterthought.

And from the "you have to laugh so you don't cry" files, yesterday my mom, who has Alzheimer's, came into the living room to watch the debate. She saw Todd sitting there and said, "Oh my god, look at that hairdo! He'll never be president!"
posted by Room 641-A at 4:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


For the like 6 people in the universe who are following Kurt Eichenwald's increasingly convoluted feud

Eichenwald is an unhinged moron. He went off again this morning in an absurd Twitter rant, but deleted it in the manner of a mendacious coward.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Conflating "I'm not too enthused about Clinton" with "hell yeah accelerationism burn it all down vote for Trump" is some 'there is no alternative' false dichotomy BS
posted by Apocryphon at 4:16 PM on October 20, 2016


So I get why millinials are hesitant, but I don't get why they would vote for Trump instead.

They're not. People have run polls this year where Trump comes in fourth after both Stein and Johnson. I find the "Millennials Are Throwing Election to Trump By Voting Third Party" thing overblown considering they have consistently been by far the most consistently pro-Clinton age group, but even the ones who aren't voting for Clinton by and large hate Trump and will not vote for him. It is barely feasible that anyone could do worse in an age segment than he is doing with millennials.
posted by Copronymus at 4:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


NYTimes Charity, Comedy and a Break From Barbs Expected at Al Smith Dinner
Even under the best of circumstances, Mr. Trump is not known for an eagerness to laugh at himself. A flagging presidential campaign — most polls now place him several percentage points behind Mrs. Clinton nationally — is unlikely to help.

Then there is the guest list. Mr. Trump will be surrounded on the dais by assorted adversaries from his political and professional life. Those expected include: Mrs. Clinton; Michael R. Bloomberg, the billionaire former New York City mayor who has vocally opposed Mr. Trump’s bid; and Eric T. Schneiderman, the New York attorney general, whose office has opened an investigation into Mr. Trump’s foundation.

At least one Trump ally, former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, is also expected to attend what is, during even typical election seasons, a quintessentially New York event, packed with political leaders and power brokers.
Wow that is some guest list. I wonder if he will show up because it sure sounds like a nightmare for him.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:20 PM on October 20, 2016


In Ohio today, Trump walked out on two separate local affiliate interviews when asked heated questions: video WCMH and WBNS
posted by zachlipton at 4:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


@mateagold Trump campaign paid *$5 million* to Mercer-backed Cambridge Analytica in September, up from $250,000 in August.

[also] @CNN commentator @CLewandowski_ received $100K in final severance from Trump campaign, bringing his total pay to $515K.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, fellow Gen Xers. Have we failed the Millennials?

I blame Oasis. They ruined everything.
posted by My Dad at 4:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


[also] @CNN commentator @CLewandowski_ received $100K in final severance from Trump campaign, bringing his total pay to $515K.

How do I arrange to get half a million bucks to totally bungle something?
posted by dis_integration at 4:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


The challenge with millennials isn't whether they will vote for HRC versus Trump (with or without wild enthusiasm) but whether they will vote at all. This is ALWAYS a challenge, in every election. Younger voters tend D and liberal, but aren't such reliable voters. Obama had this concern too, and frankly despite his popularity and coolness, he didn't get a huge young voter turnout.

I think HRC's ability to excite younger voters was seriously damaged in the primary, but I think every poll shows they now support her overwhelmingly, with or without zest. The name of the game as ever is GOTV. Once in the voting booth the lever will go HRC's way.
posted by bearwife at 4:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Secretary Clinton is a woman.

If you're going to call Donald Trump a man then please call Secretary Clinton a woman kthxbai


There is a certain connotation to the term "beaten by a girl" that resonates deeply with some of us who grew up as girl children. Yes, Secretary Clinton is a woman. And damn, did Donald get beaten by a girl last night. Badly. My inner ten-year-old girl howled with glee.
posted by Lexica at 4:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [69 favorites]


In Ohio today, Trump walked out on two separate local affiliate interviews

Not smart. Even according to a poll by Suffolk that leans his way in Ohio that came out today, he has recently lost ground there. Stiffing the Ohio news media is not a good idea. Unless of course he likes driving his support back down to 40% and below.
posted by bearwife at 4:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


> "Trump campaign paid *$5 million* to Mercer-backed Cambridge Analytica in September, up from $250,000 in August."

HAHAHAHAHA it was to build a 'psychological profile' of Clinton for the debates.
posted by kyrademon at 4:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [59 favorites]


HAHAHAHAHA it was to build a 'psychological profile' of Clinton for the debates.

Oh boy. Is that why he thought that bringing in Paula Jones and Obama's half-brother would ruffle her or something? My headcanon psychological profile of Clinton is hard-as-nails shitkicker so I really really wish someone would leak the profile provided to the Trump campaign.
posted by dis_integration at 4:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


Not smart. Even according to a poll by Suffolk that leans his way in Ohio that came out today, he has recently lost ground there. Stiffing the Ohio news media is not a good idea. Unless of course he likes driving his support back down to 40% and below.

Everything I've been reading and listening to here and elsewhere says to me that "Dude has no ground game." Like, seriously, the GOTV stuff, not wanting to connect with local media:

"Hey, potential future POTUS is here, wanna do an interview?"

Shore up the local vote in a traditionally bellwether state?

"Nope."

But it's RIGGED, PEOPLE!
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


HAHAHAHAHA it was to build a 'psychological profile' of Clinton for the debates.

Okay now THIS is really funny.
posted by Jalliah at 4:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh man. All the psychological intel in the world doesn't mean a thing if you can't get over yourself / keep it together beyond the first 25 minutes of a debate.

$5 mil is a LOT of hats!
posted by mochapickle at 4:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


the rigging lie goes down too easy in a population where so many people think that their vote "doesn't make a difference", or that they have seen through the system and know that the parties are all the same and voting is for sheeple,
posted by thelonius at 4:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


(OK, to be fair, reading further, the firm is also proving "a broad array of services to the campaign" in addition to that, probably also including polling, digital advertising, and voter and donor modeling. But still. HAHAHAHAHAHA.)
posted by kyrademon at 4:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


HAHAHAHAHA it was to build a 'psychological profile' of Clinton for the debates.

Hah. That's probably what was on the sheet of paper he tore out of his notebook after the debate concluded. "I don't pay for substandard work."
posted by notyou at 4:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


OMG that Cambridge Analytica story is gold, Jerry! Gold! I am legit cackling over here. This guy is the worst at doing money things.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Eichenwald is an unhinged moron. He went off again this morning in an absurd Twitter rant, but deleted it in the manner of a mendacious coward.

Quite the provocative article you've quoted there.
For those curious, here's another interesting piece by the same author (co-written by MeFi favorite H.A. Goodman!):

If the Russians are Really Meddling in Our Election via Wikileaks, Can They Please Keep It Up?
The Clinton camp despises transparency, and WikiLeaks are doing a major public service

posted by Atom Eyes at 4:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, Roger Stone is supposedly organising an "exit poll" in "Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Fort Lauderdale, Charlotte, Richmond and Fayetteville" and is currently recruiting volunteers. Given Stone's reputation, it sounds either like trolling or a dirty trick designed to get around the consent decrees that stipulate the kind of poll-watching the RNC and local GOP branches can do.

I dunno. Maybe I'm still overly optimistic, against all odds, but if the Trump organization isn't competent enough to get a decent get-out-the-vote effort going literally anywhere in the country, I don't believe that they're going to be competent enough to field teams of organized intimidators or God forbid gunmen. There will be some lone stochastic loons here and there, most likely; I hope and pray they are reported immediately and then shut down peacefully by the authorities.
posted by penduluum at 4:40 PM on October 20, 2016


Twenty minutes until dinner! It's gonna stream on CNN, too.
posted by mochapickle at 4:40 PM on October 20, 2016


TRUMP doesn't think of her as a woman the way we do. I think it's perfectly fine to say "girl" in this context. At any rate, I'm a woman and a feminist (getting more so every day), and I'm pleased as I can be to think of his underdeveloped ego feeling beaten by a girl, because he seriously doesn't think of any of us as fully human adults.
posted by thebrokedown at 4:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


In Ohio today, Trump walked out on two separate local affiliate interviews when asked heated questions: video WCMH and WBNS

From the WCMH interview: "We are actually up substantially in Ohio...We're doing fantastically well in Ohio." Says who?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:40 PM on October 20, 2016


I recall when Reagan was in office, he was sometimes referred to as the Teflon President - all bad stuff just sort of slid off of him, even if it was clearly his fault. Bill, on the other hand, was sometimes characterized as the Velcro President - all bad stuff stuck to him, even if it was clearly false. I now realize, all these years later, that this was my first introduction to the IOKIYAR phenomenon.

I don't think anyone ever identified a material that was associated with Bush the Elder. Perhaps he was the Sponge President? Because he'd been useful at one time but he'd just been left in the sink to rot? No? I got nothing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:41 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Another source, who has advised Trump’s aides on analytics, said ... 'They think this psychological profile can predict how she’ll respond based on her body language and other stuff, and to tune Trump in to recognize and leverage that,' the analytics operative said, though he questioned the efficacy of the technique. 'It’s really wacky pseudo-science.' ...

"'Good luck,' [Clinton communications director Jennifer Palmieri] said Friday when she was asked about this story during a pre-debate media conference call."
posted by kyrademon at 4:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]



I'm in a class and just had to apologize for interrupting the lecture with my laughter....


Hee hee..
posted by Jalliah at 4:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary's wearing a hot pink dress!
posted by acidic at 4:43 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


This "girl" or "woman" argument is kind of a dead-end. "Beaten by a girl" is an American idiom, so I, anyway, forgive anyone for making use of it. But women are habitually infantalized by calling them girls long past their girlhood, so we should try and refer to Clinton with the dignity she, a grown-ass woman, deserves.
posted by dis_integration at 4:43 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The one thing I haven't noticed from Clinton is body language, other than straight and tall, relaxed, even with creeptacular Trump, following her around the stage.
posted by Oyéah at 4:44 PM on October 20, 2016


We were not as aggressive as the people fighting for fetal rights, no.

Some of us were! In 1989, when Operation Rescue decided that L.A. was going to be their frontier, I may have done some completely avoidable damage to some people who chose not to move from the front door of a clinic. I may have become known for both doing damage and having damage done to me. Ultimately, we got every fucking woman into their appointments and one "rescuer" may have unknowingly paid for a couple of rounds of margaritas.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [28 favorites]


The hot pink dress, same color as the pussy bow blouse! I know there is a statement here. No one will miss her. She will stand out among the penguins.
posted by Oyéah at 4:46 PM on October 20, 2016


This has probably been covered above, but searching for something this abstract in a fast-moving thread ain't my strong suit.

What are the actual ramifications of Trump not conceding defeat? I don't mean that in the "he energizes his base" or "riots happen" but in terms of the flow of the election itself. The concession is something that happens so naturally every time that it's never occurred to me to question it.

So if he doesn't concede ... then what? Is she considered president-elect (legally, I mean; obviously to the people she would be considered such) at that point? Or does some other part of our government have to step in and declare it so? Does he have to initiate some legal challenge, or is him saying, "No, it was rigged, I don't accept this" sufficient to keep things in some sort of liminal state?*

Basically I'm asking if the concession is a formality or if that's actually the thing that ends the election process.

(and if it's not too much to ask could you use the word 'ramifications' in your response? That'll make it a lot easier to search when I get back in a few hours. Please and thank you.)

* Goooo Liminal State Bobcats! Liminal Ag-Tech sucks!
posted by komara at 4:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary's wearing a hot pink dress!

I really hate focusing on Clinton's fashion choices (especially because Trump is such an unkempt schlub) but here we go. She makes some amazing fashion choices. Her debate outfits? Her DNC speech outfit? This new pink outfit? Come on! She and Justin Trudeau are going to look sharp hanging out together.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


So if he doesn't concede ... then what?

Nothing out of the ordinary happens then. The loser conceding is of no legal or procedural importance whatsoever.

Ramification. Mendacious. Ubiquitous. Donkey balls.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


> "Basically I'm asking if the concession is a formality or if that's actually the thing that ends the election process."

It's a meaningless formality. There are no ramifications whatsoever.
posted by kyrademon at 4:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Her debate outfits?

Her debate outfits were red, white, and blue. Not in that order but still.
posted by Justinian at 4:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm in a class and just had to apologize for interrupting the lecture with my laughter....

Occasional adjunct asking nicely: please don't do this.
posted by notyou at 4:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


> "Basically I'm asking if the concession is a formality or if that's actually the thing that ends the election process."

It's a meaningless formality. There are no ramifications whatsoever.


it's true that there are no explicit legal ramifications. The winner of the election is the president-elect, no matter how much Trump bleats. But there are cultural ramifications. Law itself exists only because people respect its authority. When consensus about the authority of law breaks down, democracies break down.
posted by dis_integration at 4:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ramification: “Frankly, under our system, it is irrelevant whether the loser concedes or not,” said James Bopp, the conservative constitutional lawyer. “The vote of the electoral college is conclusive.” The Guardian
posted by Oyéah at 4:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


There are no ramifications whatsoever.

No legal ones. His supporters may get violent.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I thought I saw Chris Matthews on the seating chart for tonight's dinner but there is his mug on my MSNBC.
posted by zutalors! at 4:54 PM on October 20, 2016


At the Al Smith Dinner talks about everyone being civil to each other. In fact, before the dinner, "Donald went up to Hillary and asked her how she was doing. She replied: 'I'm fine. Now get out of the ladies' dressing room."
posted by zachlipton at 4:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [69 favorites]


I kept wondering today if Clinton is walking around pinching or hugging herself in sheer happiness. It's happening. She is going to be President and that has got to be an incredible feeling because she had that dream and she worked her ass off to achieve it even though most people would have thought it was impossible. I can't be her, but I can stand for a minute in her shoes and be filled with glee.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Frankly, I also wonder about the asshole obstructionists in Congress. They don't have to agree with Trump's "it's rigged" nonsense, but they could still use "there are some questions about the legitimacy of the President" as an excuse to block this-that-the-other. The same way they invented the whole ludicrous "Obama doesn't get to do X, Y, or Z in his last year" insanity. They hate Trump, but as we've seen, they're not at all above using him as cover for whatever skulduggery benefits them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


What are the actual ramifications of Trump not conceding defeat?

People might think he's a sore loser and an asshole.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


So he showed?!
posted by thebrokedown at 4:57 PM on October 20, 2016


This guy is killing it at the Al Smith dinner. But all his jokes are basically "Trump's presence is driving us to drink and mental health counseling".
posted by dis_integration at 4:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


zutalors!, Chris' show is not live.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:57 PM on October 20, 2016




Yes he showed. That was the welcome. Now they're going to eat, which you can watch on C-SPAN if you're into that sort of thing. Speeches after the food.
posted by zachlipton at 4:59 PM on October 20, 2016


Where are you all watching the AL Smith dinner?
posted by Sophie1 at 5:00 PM on October 20, 2016


The one thing I haven't noticed from Clinton is body language, other than straight and tall, relaxed, even with creeptacular Trump, following her around the stage.

Other people more informed about this may have something to say, but she's wearing body armor out the yin-yang is my understanding, and so doesn't have a lot of options for really moving around.

But also, she's confident. He thought he could shake her down by strutting around and imposing his physical presence. He was wrong.

That has him flummoxed. A woman who's just saying "No. That's not happening," by just being there and standing her ground.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


The concession speech is legally meaningless since the election is not complete on election night under any circumstances. The term "president-elect" is just a convenient way of referring to the winner. Only after the electoral college meets is it final, and only on inauguration day does the elected candidate hold any power. Absent actual legal action, nothing DJT says makes a difference. And he won't take legal action, because what he wants is to complain, and soothe his ego, not get an objective determination of the winner.

I'm betting that all the talk will dissolve into nothingness on election night, since a 6-8% win in the popular vote and 100+ electoral vote margin makes the talk of a rigged election too easy to dismiss. My guess is that he'll keep a low profile for a long enough period for the exact details of the election to become fuzzy in people's mind and then start the rounds in the conservative media about how "everyone knows" the election was illegitimate, pointing to whatever bullshit anecdotes or psuedo-statistics support his victim narrative.
posted by skewed at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Her debate outfits were red, white, and blue.

Oh hell yasss! Five Stars. Would click again.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Where are you watching this? C-Span says their coverage doesn't start until 8:50.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2016


I'm not at all a fan of the deafening Chris Matthews and flag-waving is really not my thing, but his Hardball closing commentary tonight was spot-on.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


MSNBC and CNN are both going to steam the remarks around 9pm. They are just eating now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:02 PM on October 20, 2016


FOODFIGHT!

[fake]
posted by mochapickle at 5:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton, Dolan, and Trump appear to be in an involved and animated conversation.

More Al Smith funnies:

"Gary Johnson was supposed to be here tonight. He just called me and asked me where New York was."

"In less than a month, one of these two will be elected President of the United States. Boy, that was a real buzzkill"

"A few ground rules tonight. First, Hillary: we have titans of Wall Street here, they're here to write big checks. But not so fast, don't forget the children. And Donald, even though there's a man sitting next to you in a robe [Cardinal Dolan], you're not in a locker room, so please watch your language. And Hillary, I know you've been here a few times so you know this works. You have to remain stoic in the face of insults. Just consider this the fourth debate."
posted by zachlipton at 5:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


MSNBC and CNN are both going to steam the remarks around 9pm. They are just eating now.

It's weird. You can watch the eating with the NBC Nightly News theme looping over and over.

Or maybe not so weird at this point. The Weird Window has moved a great deal in the last few months, so what do I know?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


zachlipton, are you posting from the future? All I have are a bunch of people sitting around chatting.
posted by invincible summer at 5:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


The sole purpose of 501(c)4 is to get tax deductions on political contributions.

Aren't 501(c)(4)s non-deductible as charitable contributions?
posted by holgate at 5:09 PM on October 20, 2016


Basically I'm asking if the concession is a formality or if that's actually the thing that ends the election process.

it's a formality - and i think it's likely the election will be a blowout and trump will look absurd if he claims it was rigged

i also don't think many of his followers are going to do anything and lose their jobs or their disability checks by risking prison for their actions - i believe they will shake their heads, conclude that there's no way they'll ever be heard, and resume their lives of futile self-gratification and vicarious fantasizing

until 2020 - i'll admit, the next clown could be a frightening one
posted by pyramid termite at 5:10 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


zachlipton, are you posting from the future? All I have are a bunch of people sitting around chatting.

He's posting from the past. I can verify that that happened before the eating began.
posted by dis_integration at 5:10 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh man, Lovett's on MSNBC, saying exactly the stuff he says on Keepin' It 1600 (sans cusswords).
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


zachlipton, are you posting from the future? All I have are a bunch of people sitting around chatting.

From the past. Al Smith IV gave some introductory remarks. Now it's dinnertime, then the candidates speak. My post was from those introductory remarks.
posted by zachlipton at 5:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


From Ben Schwartz's twitter: "The irony folks is that Alec Baldwin will get the Emmy."
posted by mochapickle at 5:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [54 favorites]


My god, even TIME is warped by this election!
posted by invincible summer at 5:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


#NextPost The Volunteering MetaTalk
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Seattle's weekly, The Stranger has released their 2016 election endorsements, and as usual they're pretty harsh and funny. Even if you're not in Washington, you might get a kick out of it. I especially loved this passage from their presidential endorsement:

If you need a moment to breathe, take it now. If you need an even longer moment to climb atop your signaling soapbox and let everyone know you're extra righteous by ranting about all the mistakes Clinton's made over her decades of public service, take it now. Have at it. Get it out of your system. We'll wait right here.

Are you done?

Do you feel better?

Do you feel superior?

Good. Great. You're awesome. You're perfect. You've never made a mistake, you're always at least a decade ahead of the historical moment in which you're living, politics is easy, if you were running the world and/or the Democratic party everything would be super, and if you were the Democratic nominee you would be up by 50 points in the polls and victory would be assured. But you know what? Once you crawl back out of your own ass, you'll find that politics is super hard, you aren't running the world, and you're not the Democratic nominee. Now do the right, rational, and politically mature thing and vote Hillary Fucking Clinton.


(Sorry, I don't know how to do that offsetting thing for longer quotations.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [77 favorites]


Watching this dinner is fascinating. Dozens of people are scurrying around chatting but for the most part both candidates are being ignored; Hillary is deep in conversation with Al Smith IV and Trump is talking to Melania.
posted by acidic at 5:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lovett is hilarious and the only thing I'll miss about this election is Keepin it 1600s coverage
posted by zutalors! at 5:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


@mateagold Trump campaign paid *$5 million* to Mercer-backed Cambridge Analytica in September, up from $250,000 in August.

The Mercers are one of Trump's biggest donors, so he's basically paying back a donor.
posted by chris24 at 5:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


(Sorry, I don't know how to do that offsetting thing for longer quotations.)

It's called blockquote.
posted by dis_integration at 5:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Her debate outfits were red, white, and blue.

Red, blue, and white.

So, reverse Slovakia?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:20 PM on October 20, 2016


What are the actual ramifications of Trump not conceding defeat?

He could throw up a lot of procedural noise about recounts. Alternately, he might hope that there is sufficient bugfuckery in congress to nullify state votes. But that's not happened since Reconstruction in 1974. It would require a congresscritter from each house willing to disenfranchise their own constituents and donors, and both houses agreeing that the Presidential election doesn't really matter and we're a de-facto parliamentary system.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 5:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Awwww, I just got my first Hillary volunteer campaign call! *waves madly in case phone banker person is here* Asked if Hillary could count on my vote, I said yes, absolutely! Asked if I were interested in volunteering, and I said I was already hooked up through the New Hampshire organization, since they're right over the border and way more precarious than my royal blue state.

Great job, phone banker! Keep up the good work. :)
posted by invincible summer at 5:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


Reconstruction in 1974

Not as weird as it looks at first.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


A tendency toward petty gifting seems to be a Trump family tradition:

"this is a photo of my homey grant with trumps kid at in-n-out & trumps kid is drinking lemonade outta the free water cup..." --@xwnklmnx

In case you find this sentence as hard to parse as I do, the free water cup is for, well, water, because you're supposed to pay for lemonade at In-N-Out.
posted by zachlipton at 5:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Great job, phone banker! Keep up the good work. :)

We love to hear this.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Can anyone tell me who is sitting on Hillary's right?
posted by peacheater at 5:29 PM on October 20, 2016


Cardinal Dolan
posted by zachlipton at 5:31 PM on October 20, 2016


Ha! I could watch her give this look all day.

@ziwe
and THIS is the "Jim Halpert look" America has been waiting for

posted by chris24 at 5:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


Can anyone tell me who is sitting on Hillary's right?

To her right (our left) is Al Smith IV. To her Left (our right) is Cardinal Dolan. Source: roomthreeseventeen's post of 4 hours ago.
posted by dis_integration at 5:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Her debate outfits were red, white, and blue.

Red, blue, and white.


I felt like they reflected my personal threat level as the debate series went on.
posted by zutalors! at 5:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


Cardinal Dolan

Sorry, I should have said on her right. Cardinal Dolan is between her and Trump right?
posted by peacheater at 5:32 PM on October 20, 2016


Hey massive nerds, Ezra Klein is on Chris Hayes now.
posted by zutalors! at 5:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


My main anxiety right now is that I think that any 'undecided' voter at this point is actually pro-Trump

I'm undecided in that it's gonna be either Johnson or McMullen. Major Party nominees, bleh. The _only_ redeeming thing I see Clinton wining is that Kaine runs in 4 years and the Clinton/Bush/Clinton/Bush cycle we seem to have is broken.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:35 PM on October 20, 2016


To her right (our left) is Al Smith IV. To her Left (our right) is Cardinal Dolan. Source: roomthreeseventeen's post of 4 hours ago.

Ah got it! Sorry guys, these threads move fast!
posted by peacheater at 5:35 PM on October 20, 2016


I have such a crush on Ezra Klein. Thanks, zutalors!
posted by stolyarova at 5:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


oh damn it 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a now we're not going to be able to talk about anything else for an hour :(
posted by stolyarova at 5:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump's guests at the debate included "four mothers...whose children have been killed, brutally killed by people that came into the country illegally." I was curious about how many people are killed by undocumented immigrants in the US.

121 "people released from immigration custody who were later charged with murder between 2010 and 2014, according to figures from the Department of Homeland Security cited in a recent letter from two U.S. senators. That's about a thousandth of a percent of the total estimated number of unauthorized immigrants in the United States." That's 24.2 murder charges per year.

In 2014, 25 people died after being struck by lightning, 36 people died after being bitten or mauled by a dog, and 91 people died after contact with venomous plants or animals. In 2000, 64 suffocated in cave-ins, 55 died after contact with hot tap water, 35 were killed by earthquakes, and 31 people were killed after being bitten or crushed by reptiles.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


No, just twenty minutes until the speeches at the dinner start.
posted by yasaman at 5:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Such A Nasty Woman / Bad Hombre 2016!

Um excuse me but Diamond Joe is sitting this one out.
posted by ckape at 5:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


...and 31 people were killed after being bitten or crushed by reptiles.

Trumps' silence on this issue clearly suggests he's in the pocket of big reptile.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


The two little girls next to me wanted a selfie with Michelle, and she said okay (although she told us afterward she wasn't really supposed to stop as she moved along the front row of the crowd). The youngest sister, who was about six, held the phone. They had to do it several times, because Michelle pointed out that she wasn't actually in the frame: the girl was making sure she herself was in it, but cutting out FLOTUS in the process.

It was adorable.
posted by Superplin at 5:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [71 favorites]


So I guess I'll open the can of worms.

922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, why don't you want to vote for HRC? Do you perceive a woman who was born middle-class and worked as a devoted public servant her entire life independently from her husband to be a member of a political dynasty... because her husband, who was born lower-class, happened to be President sixteen years ago?
posted by stolyarova at 5:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trumps' silence on this issue clearly suggests he's in the pocket of big reptile.

How would he fit in Ted Cruz's pocket?
posted by peeedro at 5:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


kirkaracha, that's practically context. No one wants that.
posted by mollweide at 5:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


The _only_ redeeming thing I see Clinton wining is that Kaine runs in 4 years

Uh no, Kaine is not going to primary Clinton.
posted by zutalors! at 5:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [28 favorites]


> So I guess I'll open the can of worms.
922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, why don't you want to vote for HRC?

Do I have to paste the list of retired election thread topics again? Because I'll do it.
posted by Tevin at 5:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


*quiet whispering* And here we find an actual example of the "both sides are evil!" beast in the wild. What a wonderful specimen! They've become increasingly rare in their natural habitat as more rational critters have been displacing them at an accelerating rate. Look at that plumage! Wait, I'm going to poke it with a stick!
posted by Justinian at 5:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [80 favorites]


why don't you want to vote for HRC I don't want to vote for a a Bush, a Clinton any more. Chelsea, Bill's brother, Jeb Bush, Billy Bush, Laura Bush, etc. Same goes for Roosevelts, Nixons.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:46 PM on October 20, 2016


Kaine is fine and a great source of dad jokes but he's not Presidential. I have no idea who the frontrunner in 2024 will be. The democratic bench as revealed in this cycle is too old to be viable then (Biden will be over 80). Maybe Cory Booker? My druthers are for a democratic socialist Chicana, but, as Trump lets us know at his rallies, we can't always get what we want.
posted by dis_integration at 5:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm really perplexed by why the Democrats don't have a deeper younger bench.
posted by zutalors! at 5:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd love to see Cory Booker vs. Brian Sandoval sometime in the future.
posted by stolyarova at 5:48 PM on October 20, 2016


There's no such thing as Presidential. Kaine could, god forbid, be President a year from now. He'd sure as heck be Presidential then.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Uh no, Kaine is not going to primary Clinton.

I see Clinton as a one term President. 70 is not old old, but this is the Presidency, look at any President in the last fifty years, the position takes a toll. Kaine'd be an excellent candidate. Not like the GOP has a chance with anyone.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


why don't you want to vote for HRC I don't want to vote for a a Bush, a Clinton any more. Chelsea, Bill's brother, Jeb Bush, Billy Bush, Laura Bush, etc. Same goes for Roosevelts, Nixons.

And the fact that Hillary Clinton is literally the first non-XY-chromosome carrying major presidential nominee means absolutely nothing to you? I'm so absolutely sick of all this talk about political dynasties, when there's been a fucking dynasty of male Presidents for the entire history of the US and that's somehow just dandy.
posted by peacheater at 5:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [89 favorites]


what? she's going to step aside? That's weird fan fiction.
posted by zutalors! at 5:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hillary is chatting animatedly with the Cardinal; Trump is reading a white piece of paper, scowling, and ignoring Melania.
posted by mochapickle at 5:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


“I don’t know, she seemed arrogant. I just couldn’t relate to her.” [...] “But I don’t trust her. I don’t really know why. Maybe the emails?” [...]“There’s something shady about her, something that isn’t genuine... I can’t put my finger on it.” [...] she just bugs him. [...] "She just doesn’t feel like a leader."

This is forever ago in thread time but OH MY GOD: "I don't know. There's something about her that I just don't like. She's just...she's different, somehow, from all the other politicians. I don't know what it is. It's like...if you said, 'Picture a politician,' you wouldn't picture her, right? I'm not sure why. Maybe it's her hair? She seems to have more of it than most politicians, you know. Or the way she dresses? Her clothes are different than other politician's clothes, I think. They're colorful? I mean, you see her standing in a group of politicians and it's like, 'Whoa! One of these people is not like the others!' I don't know. It just doesn't seem right, somehow... It must be her fault. I don't trust her." [fake]
posted by Snarl Furillo at 5:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [54 favorites]


From the now-we-can't-have-fun-things department, Why You Shouldn’t Laugh at Donald Trump’s Hands.

The funny thing about laughing at Trump's tiny hands isn't a penis joke, it's that Spy magazine co-founder Graydon Carter started referring to Trump as a "short-fingered vulgarian" in the mid-1980s.
To this day, I receive the occasional envelope from Trump. There is always a photo of him—generally a tear sheet from a magazine. On all of them he has circled his hand in gold Sharpie in a valiant effort to highlight the length of his fingers.
Trump has been carrying a grudge for 30+ years.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [32 favorites]


Eric Garcetti! Presuming he gets some more national or state-level experience by 2024.
posted by yasaman at 5:50 PM on October 20, 2016


Booker would be great as President. But like I've said for years, why any Senator wants to give up the more powerful job to be POTUS is beyond me.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:50 PM on October 20, 2016


Modern medical science has moved wonders, so I wouldn't be sure about what happens by the futuristic cyberpunk year of 2020.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, like a vote for HRC is the same as a vote for Chelsea or Bill's brother. Ignore her years of public service.
posted by zutalors! at 5:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


I see Clinton as a one term President. 70 is not old old, but this is the Presidency, look at any President in the last fifty years, the position takes a toll.

Oh, so it's her health! Gotcha.

quiet reminder that women outlive men and 70 may be old for you dudes but we're still kickin'
posted by stolyarova at 5:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [57 favorites]


That thing in the air started shortly after Bill Clinton was elected, ending 12 years of Reagan/Bush neo-liberalism (not that it was called that at the time).

Respectfully, that election didn't end shit, except for the Democratic party's defense of labor. It did create the thirty-year-plus frenzy of hatred for the Clintons on the right, who are seen as stealing the ideology and political profile of the economics associated with Reagan-Bush by the right. The Clintons sought to strip socially-progressive politics from the economic left and instead present them in the context of the historically dominant mainstream of American economic thought, which is anti-labor and traditionally Republican. There are pro and con arguments about whether or not this is a good idea. What's not arguable is that they were ragingly successful from a political perspective, and that the GOP's horrifying retreat into the farthest corners of the right can be interpreted as a rageful recoil from the specific persons of Bill and Hillary.

But for sure, President Clinton did not end any aspect of Reagan-Bush neoliberalism except to take it away from the GOP. I certainly hope that the next President Clinton will, in fact, actually end it. I don't actually expect this and am looking forward to fighting toward this goal over the next four years.
posted by mwhybark at 5:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


So I guess I'll open the can of worms.

The can of worms was really quite fine sitting unopened on the shelf. Did you have to crack the lid?
posted by zachlipton at 5:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


Jesus people I go over to Facebook to opine whether HRC is Griffyndor, Ravenclaw, or Slytherin and come back to find us starting the 2024 election thread. Cripes, y'all.
posted by Sara C. at 5:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


And the fact that Hillary Clinton is literally the first non-XY-chromosome carrying major presidential nominee means absolutely nothing to you? I'm so absolutely sick of all this talk about political dynasties, when there's been a fucking dynasty of male Presidents for the entire history of the US and that's somehow just dandy.


hey don't blame me because the Democrats can't find more women who want to be President. The primary was not a bunch of women running for the nomination, ya know?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:53 PM on October 20, 2016


I'm really perplexed by why the Democrats don't have a deeper younger bench.

politics isn't perceived as a worthy calling by the more liberal people among our youth
posted by pyramid termite at 5:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also my "deep bench pick" of choice is Kamala Harris.
posted by Sara C. at 5:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Liberal cosmopolitanism makes me super happy, actually. I'd love a Federation- or Culture-style planetary government. Broadening the sphere of compassion is a wonderful thing.
posted by stolyarova at 5:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Smith dinner program resuming shortly.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:54 PM on October 20, 2016


Trump is reading a white piece of paper, scowling, and ignoring Melania.

HEY SHUT THE FUCK UP, LOSER. He's concentrating on being funny!
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:54 PM on October 20, 2016


I'm so conflicted about Kamala Harris. Haven't we had enough prosecutors in power?
posted by Justinian at 5:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


As long as 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a doesn't live in a swing state, does it really matter?
posted by Apocryphon at 5:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


So Melania is seated next to Trump yet Bill is nowhere in sight. Interesting.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:55 PM on October 20, 2016


hey don't blame me because the Democrats can't find more women who want to be President. The primary was not a bunch of women running for the nomination, ya know?

i.e. I'm just fine with a woman President but not this particular woman President right?
posted by peacheater at 5:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


Oh, so it's her health! Gotcha quiet reminder that women outlive men and 70 may be old for you dudes but we're still kickin' She's healthy now. But as someone who's lost grandparents and is watching his parents decline, it doesn't take much to go from healthy and spry to huh, yeah wow.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:55 PM on October 20, 2016


She'll be dating in the White House after being widowed in her second term.

;_;

Can we not fantasize about anybody's deaths please?
posted by stolyarova at 5:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


i don't like the idea of voting for another clinton, either, but

1) i think she's the better clinton
2) i really fucking hate the idea of voting for a trump
posted by pyramid termite at 5:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Melania is actually smiling and leaning into her husband, looking like she is having a good time.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's healthy now.

Did you support Bernie? Would you have supported Biden?
posted by stolyarova at 5:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


OMG, the Al Smith stream -- sitting in uncomfortable formalwear with strangers you hate while eating dinner on camera while millions of people watch. This is like my ultimate social anxiety nightmare.

I need a drink.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [43 favorites]


But as someone who's lost grandparents and is watching his parents decline, it doesn't take much to go from healthy and spry to huh, yeah wow.

This is awful, please stop this.
posted by zutalors! at 5:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [40 favorites]


Guys, while you've been arguing, .000174 people have died due to a lizard attacks. #focusedontheissues
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [60 favorites]


i.e. I'm just fine with a woman President but not this particular woman President right?

It's become clear one can't breath an ounce of criticism or doubt or anything without it being positively because she's a woman. Fine.

Okay. I take it all back Clinton serves 8 years. Chelsea gets in the game, serves 8. One of the Bush daughters thinks hey the GOP is different now, 8 years of a Bush. hell may as well amend the constitution and save some money on elections, there are lot of great grandkids that need jobs.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:59 PM on October 20, 2016


Jesus people I go over to Facebook to opine whether HRC is Griffyndor, Ravenclaw, or Slytherin and come back to find us starting the 2024 election thread. Cripes, y'all.

She is so obviously Hufflepuff, if we go by the common fan-canon that the Sorting hat puts you in the house with the traits that you most aspire to.
posted by muddgirl at 5:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


As far as historically close elections go, there have been many in the 20th century besides Florida and New Mexico in 2000. Eventually, bringing up the Nader effect will be as disregarded as waving the bloody shirt. Especially as elections get further hyper-scrutinized and hyper-analyzed. Was anyone expecting 2000 to come as close as it did? If so, then it was foolish to vote non-strategically then. But that rule doesn't hold for every election, and it definitely doesn't hold if you're not in a battleground state.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:59 PM on October 20, 2016


i think that hillary's healthier than i am right now - so guess who i'm worried about?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:00 PM on October 20, 2016


I didn't realize my uncle Teddy also went by the name Alfred Smith IV
posted by sallybrown at 6:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


That all said, 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, you're just being silly now. Especially since the Bushes will probably run George P., not one of W's daughters.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


OH man "Gov. Christie was supposed to be here, but he got stuck in bridge traffic". Joke of the night so far.
posted by dis_integration at 6:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


This Al Smith dinner is gross - joking about Trump's assaults. Like everything, Trump brings everyone lower.
posted by zutalors! at 6:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm really perplexed by why the Democrats don't have a deeper younger bench.

Gerrymandering and general Republican stranglehold on local and state politics. You can't grow your bench if none of your potential young up and comers can get beyond city council because state districts are arranged so that there aren't very many places a Democrat can get elected.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


I think it's fair to be concerned about political family dynasties, but shouldn't we judge political figures on individual merit and not on who they're related to?
posted by Slothrup at 6:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm really perplexed by why the Democrats don't have a deeper younger bench.

We've sort of covered this in past threads. Short answer: 2010. 2014.
posted by holgate at 6:01 PM on October 20, 2016


Al Smith: Guiliani is here. Mr. Mayor, we have the lights just right so that you stay in Mr. Trump's shadow all night
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


um you know I think anybody who has a long, demonstrated record of public service is a reasonable candidate for office actually
posted by stolyarova at 6:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


Also good: Rudy Giuliani is here. We've adjusted the lighting so he's always sitting in Donald Trump' s shadow.
posted by mochapickle at 6:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Okay. I take it all back Clinton serves 8 years. Chelsea gets in the game, serves 8. One of the Bush daughters thinks hey the GOP is different now, 8 years of a Bush. hell may as well amend the constitution and save some money on elections, there are lot of great grandkids that need jobs.

922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a never gets elected to anything because no one can ever remember how to spell the name
posted by pyramid termite at 6:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I really hate the dynasty talk. She's not his child, this isn't a generational hand-me-down. She was instrumental in getting her husband elected and driving policy in his administration. He made it to the white house partly because of her, and she is if anything going to get there partly in spite of him.

This is not a dynasty. This is not some backroom bullshit. She had to all but claw her way here, and now gets to hear people talk about coattails.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [139 favorites]


it doesn't take much to go from healthy and spry to huh, yeah wow.

Four of the last six presidents lived or have lived past the age of 90. The other two are still alive.

No U.S. President has died of natural causes in office in 70 years.

She's going to be fine, and predicating "concerns" on her age is an obvious -ism.
posted by Etrigan at 6:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


I've argued with my husband about the Clinton "dynasty" complaint. My position is that it's not fair to make the same nepotism claims about spouses as it is about children. With the Bushes and their ilk, their children are given a certain amount of prestige at birth, which they can then leverage if they chose to run for political office when they get older. But for Hillary, she literally had no chance of running for President, or for any office really, when she and Bill entered politics. She's had to bide her time and develop her resume as opportunities for women have slowly expanded. She's built up her own credentials in the face of overwhelming, entrenched sexism, and the only reason, as far as I can tell, that Bill's career was their primary focus was because of gender, not because he's the political elder who can pass his political name and expertise to the next generation.
posted by bibliowench at 6:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [67 favorites]


I'm really perplexed by why the Democrats don't have a deeper younger bench.

We've sort of covered this in past threads. Short answer: 2010. 2014.


Um, this is sort of condescending but we have plenty of options, we just have lots of reasons to tear them down really - Gillibrand, Newsom, Booker... we can't agree on people is part of it I think.
posted by zutalors! at 6:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Al Smith introducing Trump: We did a coin toss backstage. "I'm happy to report, no matter how the coin toss ended, our next speaker was going to say it was rigged...There were actually some rumors he wasn't going to show up tonight. You could say he was going to keep us in suspense....The Catholic Church is not the largest tax-exempt landowner here tonight."
posted by zachlipton at 6:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


That piece of shit, Kissinger, should've been dead years ago.
posted by Neilopolis at 6:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


hey everybody i'd like to express all of my concerns about clinton being president

i think people need to understand what my concerns are
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [42 favorites]


"Donald, the microphone is yours and it's working." Hee.
posted by mochapickle at 6:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's become clear one can't breath an ounce of criticism or doubt or anything...

Actually it's become clear that one has to do a teeeensy bit better than "nyyerrrgh I just don't like her" or "she's old" or other bullshit "criticism." But go on, carry that cross proudly.
posted by Behemoth at 6:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


don't blame me because the Democrats can't find more women who want to be President

I'd argue that in order to get a female President, it almost has to be Hillary Clinton, except I'd be shocked if this conversation isn't one of those ones we've had 20 times since the primaries which will piss off the poor mods.

(Quick summary of my argument: very few women have the level of political experience Clinton does, and it is unlikely that our country's stupid sexist electorate would even be remotely willing to consider a female candidate less qualified than she is. Clinton's in a very narrow field. It's, what, her, Condoleezza Rice? The only long serving female senators I could come up with who aren't dangerously old are Patty Murray or Maria Cantwell, who aren't exactly household names.)

Also, on the off chance we have not sorted Hillary into a Hogwarts house, I have lots of thoughts about that.
posted by Sara C. at 6:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


When Trump walked by and touched Hillary, I pretended she said "get your hands off me you damned dirty ape".
posted by cashman at 6:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


My new favorite person is the lady over Trump's shoulder taking a Snapchat or whatever while wearing elbow-length white gloves and fabulous sparkling earrings
posted by sallybrown at 6:05 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]



I'd argue that in order to get a female President, it almost has to be Hillary Clinton


I agree bigly
posted by zutalors! at 6:05 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Continuing my own digression, all of the alleged spoiler effects besides Y2K took place during elections when there was a popular third party candidate who actually had a good chance. So I guess that's the dilemma- if you have a third party candidate who could disastrously affect the results, you would probably want to vote against them. But if the third party showing is weak, and the victory of your preferred major party candidates is assured, then go ahead and vote for your conscience. Such is the paradox of "I'm voting for someone who can't win because my second choice will inevitably win, thanks to everyone else who disagrees with me." I think the point is we really need to elect some candidates who can switch us to Condorcet, please
posted by Apocryphon at 6:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


DJT And a special hello to all the people who have known and loved me for years.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:06 PM on October 20, 2016


Trump's going with me-me-me, and it's bombing already.
posted by holgate at 6:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


what's the steve situation for the democrats?

steve are the future
posted by Tevin at 6:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald didn't quite start with a joke here. He was just ranting about all the politicians in the room who used to want him for endorsements and donations and now call him names.
posted by zachlipton at 6:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just filled out my ballot. God damn did that feel good.
posted by dersins at 6:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is not a dynasty. This is not some backroom bullshit. She had to all but claw her way here, and now gets to hear people talk about coattails.

Yeah it's not a coincidence that the first major party female Presidential nominee is the most qualified ever. Seriously, just look at her range of experience. Obama had absolutely nothing on her when he became President, which he freely admits.

I'm sorry, this whole conversation just makes me so incensed it is going to be hard for me to sleep tonight. It's like that old saying that we'll really have achieved equality when a mediocre woman gets the same opportunities as a mediocre man. It's just so brilliantly ironic, that women need to claw their way to the attention of the public, and in some cases that does involve being married to powerful men, because society sure as hell isn't going to recognize their ability unless it is thrust in their faces. And then when they do that and work and work and work and sweat - their hard work and intelligence is dismissed by people who can't see beyond the fact of who they are married to. I would have loved for Hillary Rodham to have become President. But if you can't see why she had absolutely zero chance of that happening, and not for lack of any inherent ability, you need to do a little soul-searching.
posted by peacheater at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2016 [98 favorites]


He's kinda bombing.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Man. Trump is piiiiiiiiissed at 90% of the people in this room, and it shows.
posted by duffell at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald does not get this kind of humor. Bloop.
posted by sallybrown at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


oh man, he's just reading notes and it is so awful.
posted by gatorae at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2016


DJT isn't very funny, but the crowd is laughing politely.
posted by mochapickle at 6:07 PM on October 20, 2016


The jokes aren't terrible, but his delivery is just so poor.
posted by cashman at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016


Mod note: One deleted. 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, please drop it, thread's not about you.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [34 favorites]


He's Jesus???
posted by waitangi at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016


I'M LIKE JESUS LOL AMIRITE?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's difficult for him to even say 'self-deprecating.'
posted by sporkwort at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Real talk here. Does anybody really believe Bill Clinton could have gotten himself elected president if Hillary hadn’t married him?)
posted by nicepersonality at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


I'll give Trump credit for making an effort at least to do the kind of thing he's expected to do here.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hillary with the stone cold ice grill when Trump tried to be all chummy with her about the vicious debate.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


O.k., so watching the dinner...

TRUMP: "The truth is I'm actually a modest person. It's true."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


He hired a good writer for this.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


i'm not watching, but it sounds horrible - did donnie really have to do this?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:09 PM on October 20, 2016


what's the steve situation for the democrats?

I'd like to think Steven Universe will grow up to be a Democrat. He seems like a nice young community leader.
posted by Sara C. at 6:10 PM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


OK. That "pardon me" was a good one.
posted by Talez at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think the man behind Trump on his right is literally praying for the earth to swallow him up.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't get it. Trump could have spent the rest of his life just doing stupid shit like this, had a ton of money, a beautiful and smart wife, and been surrounded by family (some of whom he apparently even likes) and not been publicly humiliated. Was it worth it, Donny?
posted by Justinian at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


The "I won't vote for another Clinton" thing actually pisses me off a little.

She's not a Clinton. She's a Rodham. She's only a Clinton because the man she married is a Clinton. (And she's only a Rodham because her father was a Rodham.) She's her own person, and we shouldn't define her either by the man who fathered her or the man she married. If this election has us talking about how sexism permeates, let's talk about that.

Dislike her policies or whatever, but at least acknowledge that she's her own sentient being.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [85 favorites]


man, a lot of these "jokes" are not hitting.
posted by modernnomad at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016


The Trump is literally reading off a page here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump: Earlier backstage "Hillary accidentally bumped into me and she said...pardon me." [then he ruins the joke by explaining it: "I said 'let me talk to you about that after I get into office.'"]

"This is the first time ever, ever that Hillary is sitting down and speaking to major corporate leaders and not getting paid for it."

"Last night I called Hillary a 'nasty woman', but this stuff is all relative after listening to h rattle on and on and on I don't think so badly of Rosie O'Donnell anymore. In fact, I'm actually starting to like Rosie a lot."

This is in increasingly terrible taste.
posted by zachlipton at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


Really, he's bringing up Rosie O'Donnell?
posted by Sophie1 at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is a reminder of how Trump has tried not-very-successfully to ingratiate himself with Manhattan's rich people for 40-odd years.
posted by holgate at 6:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


Donald thinks humor is a way to wound people with his genuine feelings without having to deal with people calling him mean because "it's just a joke."

But this kind of Catholic humor is a way of ribbing your loved ones and friends about minor faults to show them you know them and love them (because god forbid you just tell them that) without hurting them, and then ribbing yourself so they know you don't think you're better than.

Also he's just an idiot.
posted by sallybrown at 6:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh god he just made a "media is rigging the election" joke.
posted by stolyarova at 6:12 PM on October 20, 2016


Oh, it's so awkward. It's like a drunk uncle peeing on the thanksgiving turkey.
posted by mochapickle at 6:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


he's gonna come out with a michael scott "boom - roasted", isn't he?
posted by modernnomad at 6:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


DJT again comparing himself to Jesus-- "I was also a carpenter starting out in llife working for my father."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:12 PM on October 20, 2016


"My wife, Melania, gives the EXACT SAME SPEECH."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]



She's not a Clinton. She's a Rodham. She's only a Clinton because the man she married is a Clinton. (And she's only a Rodham because her father was a Rodham.) She's her own person, and we shouldn't define her either by the man who fathered her or the man she married. If this election has us talking about how sexism permeates, let's talk about that.


She also only added Clinton because she got shit for keeping her maiden name while first lady of Arkansas.
posted by zutalors! at 6:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [63 favorites]


The "exact same speech" one was hilarious.
posted by cashman at 6:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


I meant earlier, there haven't been many [close presidential elections] in the 20th century besides Florida and New Mexico in 2000
posted by Apocryphon at 6:13 PM on October 20, 2016



"My wife, Melania, gives the EXACT SAME SPEECH."


that's the kind of stuff they should have stuck with.
posted by zutalors! at 6:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Whoever the two guys are who are seated directly behind the dais, they clearly want Donald to hurry up and choke on a Trump steak.
posted by duffell at 6:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Oh this one is going to get me in trouble, not with Hillary. You know the President told me to stop whining ,but I have to say the media is more biased this year than ever before. You want the proof? Michelle Obama gives a speech and everyone loves it, it's fantastic, everyone thinks it's absolutely great. My wife Melania gives the exact same speech and people get on her case, and I don't get it. I don't know why. And it wasn't her fault. Stand up Melania, come on, she took a lot of abuse. Oh I'm in trouble when I go home tonight. She didn't know about that one. Am I ok? Cardinal: please speak to her."
posted by zachlipton at 6:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Throwing his wife under the bus. You're sleeping the doghouse tonight.
posted by Talez at 6:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


That bit about Melania was awk....ward.
posted by holgate at 6:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Are boos unprecedented at this thing?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


She's not a Clinton. She's a Rodham.

As a soon to be married woman, this actually really bothers me. I would be LIVID, like burning shit down incensed, if someone suggested that I shouldn't be allowed to do something I was perfectly qualified to do, because my husband is also an accomplished person who achieved something similar.

What the actual fuck. What kind of inhuman asshole do you have to be to think that way? Do you really think that a woman becomes a non-person the second she signs a marriage license?
posted by Sara C. at 6:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [99 favorites]


Damn. Trump getting straight booed. Awkward.
posted by cashman at 6:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


And now they are booing him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh they're booing now.
posted by Talez at 6:15 PM on October 20, 2016


This isn't a campaign rally dude.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:15 PM on October 20, 2016


Booing Trump again. Wow. He's just terrible. Even at THIS.
posted by cashman at 6:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Melania "same speech" bit was good and well delivered but he is absolutely bombing right now.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:15 PM on October 20, 2016


In re Clinton and dynasties:

I'm not wild about this either, but I do know that historically many "first" women politicians (at least in the US and the UK) got their starts because they were married to successful male politicians. Some temporarily filled their husbands' seats when they were widowed (which seems weird but was legal), others traded on the name. Women without political connections were much less successful. I am therefore not surprised that the first woman president (assuming all goes well) is connected to a powerful male politician. There is so much distrust of women that in order to succeed in a "male" field, they need to have powerful male connections - but then, of course, they get criticized over that. Ideally, after these first connected women serve, it becomes more normal for women to have political careers and they need not be attached to famous men.

In re "I'm okay with a woman president but not this woman president": that's always going to push people's buttons because as sincere as you may be, it's virtually the exact phrasing that people use against women candidates, and then it turns out that they say it every time. "I'm okay with a woman president but not this one" gets used against every candidate as a cover for, consciously or unconsciously, not wanting a woman president at all.

A takeaway might be that we will have to get rid of misogyny to really have a chance of getting a good range of female politicians elected, because right now only someone with "dynastic" connections can get any traction and it's difficult to bring criticism because so much criticism is misogynist.
posted by Frowner at 6:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


Stepping on more dicks.

"Pretending not to hate Catholics"? Are you fucking serious?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


god this is somehow more awful than the debates. what is he thinking? "she's pretending not to hate catholics"
posted by modernnomad at 6:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


He keeps wandering in a direction which makes it seem like he's stumping. Presumably people expect a joke at the end of it, but the joke to stump-content ratio is really kinda unacceptable.
posted by jackbishop at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I was also a carpenter starting out in llife working for my father."

so, instead of crucifying you, they dipped you in the vat at the cheetoh factory?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


oh my fucking god -- "she's here tonight in public pretending not to hate Catholics."
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Who wrote this?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016


He just veered into his own material. It stopped being funny.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


What brought on the boos?
posted by Bookhouse at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016


Oh man, he couldn't keep it together for 10 minutes? This is awful.
posted by Justinian at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


this isn't light hearted.
posted by zutalors! at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016


Lost the room.
posted by holgate at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


More booing. And booing.
posted by Talez at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Everyone's booing.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016


It's getting ugly, ugly, ugly now.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is painful. He's getting booed. Really badly.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


These are the joke lines from his debate prep that hit the cutting room floor.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Holy shit this is a trainwreck.
posted by Talez at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


And now he's getting heckled.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


This speech of Trump's is very undignified, not that we should be surprised. What a ghoulish event.
posted by Evstar at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


You know why I fucking hate this guy? Part of the point of this exercise is to mock yourself so you show you're a normal person with reasonable humility and a fair sense of humor. Instead of mocking himself, he mocked his female opponent, Rosie O'Donnell, and then his own damn wife. He can't bear to even laugh at himself, even when he gets to write it and pull all the punches he wants. He takes a moment that was humiliating for his wife, in a season of life that was probably humiliating for his wife, and holds it up in front of everyone for them to laugh at, as she sits there.

Where is the Cardinal? Get up out of your seat and give him some of the ear-bending I got for yapping during Mass.
posted by sallybrown at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [70 favorites]


Wow, the booing. I'm glad he's showing everyone who he is.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


"And here come the pretzels!"
posted by drezdn at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


He briefly had the room when he was making the self-denigrating Melania joke (which denigrates his wife, not him, because he's a dipshit). Now he's completely lost the room and he's getting a ton of boos.
posted by zachlipton at 6:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Getting booed a second time about the e-mails. (First time the set up was something like "Hillary Clinton is so corrupt," I think.)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016


Legendary comedy writer Steve Bannon
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


"Forget it. He's rolling." </AnimalHouse>
posted by tonycpsu at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I mean... whether you think his first 7-8 minutes were funny or not, it was more or less what's expected of the candidate and kind of humanizing. And now this? Can he not go a single day without tanking his own campaign?
posted by Justinian at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's lost the room. "She hates the Catholics"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016


The Cardinal is giving pointed looks into the crowd. Don't get on his bad side!!!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016


Why is it they have these roast type things? it's so cringeworthy and provides what kind of substance?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well I know what the press is going to be talking about all tomorrow.
posted by Talez at 6:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: "Here she is tonight pretending not to hate Catholics."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:18 PM on October 20, 2016


The faces at the top table.

Not going to get invited back.
posted by holgate at 6:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The people behind Trump on screen look like they're going to throw up.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


*Dolan leans over to Clinton*

I can only imagine what he said.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


Has any candidate ever been booed at a charity event like this before? holy shit.
posted by modernnomad at 6:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


This is a horror show.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Where's that "Wrap It Up" buzzer when you need it?
posted by cashman at 6:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now as his closer he's quit making jokes and is talking about "vicious barbarism" in the world and saying we have to be strong and smart and "come together not only as a nation but as a world community."
posted by zachlipton at 6:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is it they have these roast type things? it's so cringeworthy and provides what kind of substance?

It's not meant to be substantial. It's meant to be gentle humour to show that politics isn't personal. Except 2016.
posted by holgate at 6:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [32 favorites]


This is so different from the Obama/Romney one four years ago. It was respectful and self-aware.

And off he goes stumping after insulting Hillary and the audience equally.
posted by mochapickle at 6:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ha, Cardinal Dolan can't even bring himself to clap at Donald's "create a culture that celebrates life." Wiping his brow with a napkin like "when will this guy STOPPPPP"
posted by duffell at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Look at the giant typeface on that page.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is it they have these roast type things? it's so cringeworthy and provides what kind of substance?

This is why I hate the "heal the divide," "let's love each other despite these silly differences" stuff. There are reasons people feel so passionately on both sides. These people have strikingly different visions for our country and we are counting on them.
posted by zutalors! at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Now as his closer he's quit making jokes and is talking about "vicious barbarism"

Which he, in large part, has caused. :/
posted by mudpuppie at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Instead of mocking himself, he mocked his female opponent, Rosie O'Donnell, and then his own damn wife.

And gee, what do those three targets have in common?
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [41 favorites]


He's even worse than I imagined. Holy shit he's awful.
posted by Surely This at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Right, the Obama/McCain one in particular I thought was hilarious. This was... nothing like what we're used to.
posted by Justinian at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Who was the rude wiping his head with napkin?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016


And IIRC Dolan's brother is a right wing radio show host.
posted by drezdn at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016


you know, donnie, some people think that WE'RE the vicious barbarians
posted by pyramid termite at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Where is Arte Johnson with a gong when you need him?
posted by bibliowench at 6:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


That was like New Game+++ Michael Scott levels of bad
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


That was a good William Henry Harrison joke.
posted by escabeche at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Al Smith: "I can't believe people said it is unpresidential to catch Pneumonia. Just look at William Henry Harrison."
posted by zachlipton at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


Now the question is whether Trump will heckle Hillary.
posted by holgate at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016


And Hillary laughed and laughed genuinely and smiled graciously through it, all the way to the White House.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trump: "The vicious barbarism that we read about in history books but never thought we'd be witnessing in our modern world."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The tweet storm tonight
posted by ctmf at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I can't believe all those people said pneumonia wasn't presidential. Just look at William Henry Harrison." Hillary laughs gamely. It's great.
posted by mochapickle at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Instead of mocking himself, he mocked his female opponent, Rosie O'Donnell, and then his own damn wife.

I've been thinking about this since he mentioned Ruth Bader Ginsberg last night.

Does Trump have beefs with any men, or is this only something he does with women?
posted by Sara C. at 6:22 PM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


Rachel has Al Franken giving his off the cuff reaction as a professional comedian who also happens to be a US Senator.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:22 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Al Franken doing color commentary with Maddow after Trump's shitshow was magnificent.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:22 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's not meant to be substantial. It's meant to be gentle humour to show that politics isn't personal. Except 2016.

That's my point, at this juncture why would you go forward with this, knowing how vile Trump has been?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:22 PM on October 20, 2016


Aggh, I accidentally had it on CNN instead of MSNBC! I missed Al Franken?! I hope it goes on Youtube.
posted by Justinian at 6:23 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary: "I took a break from my rigorous nap schedule to be here."
posted by mochapickle at 6:23 PM on October 20, 2016 [50 favorites]


That's my point, at this juncture why would you go forward with this, knowing how vile Trump has been?

Trump doesn't deserve the Presidential veto, or a heckler's veto.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:23 PM on October 20, 2016


That was like New Game+++ Michael Scott levels of bad

Just wait until we meet prison Trump.
posted by drezdn at 6:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


also, I can kinda see why Bill was not brought along... can you imagine him sitting there listening to Trump describe Hillary in that way? There'd be good odds he'd stand up and confront him.
posted by modernnomad at 6:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's funny because Donald doesnt know who William Henry Harrison is.
posted by condour75 at 6:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


She's going to be funny AND presidential.
posted by soakimbo at 6:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


What are the odds on Trump booing Clinton, you think?
posted by duffell at 6:24 PM on October 20, 2016


That was like New Game+++ Michael Scott levels of bad

Which is impressive because Trump usually channels Dwight's Speech
posted by nathan_teske at 6:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Clinton: "This is such a special event that I took a break from my rigorous nap schedule to be here, and it's a treat for all of you too, because as you've heard, I usually charge a lot for these kinds of speeches."
posted by zachlipton at 6:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [66 favorites]


Hillary: I'm not a candidate for sainthood, but getting through three debates with Donald was a miracle.
posted by mochapickle at 6:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [33 favorites]


Her jokes are pretty funny, but she needs some lessons on timing from Barack.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


BASKET OF ADORABLES!!!!!
posted by stolyarova at 6:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


"basket of adorables" "formal pantsuits" -- she's killin' it!
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


Why isn't there closed captioning for the dinner ? :(
posted by Room 641-A at 6:26 PM on October 20, 2016


Formal pantsuits!
posted by Sublimity at 6:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Stained glass ceiling" lol
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


"There are a lot of friendly faces here tonight...I just want to put you all in a basket of adorables."

"Donald: If at any time you don't like what I'm saying, feel free to stand up and shout 'wrong' while I'm talking."

"It's amazing I'm up here after Donald. I didn't think he'd be ok with a peaceful transition of power."

"After listening to your speech, I will also enjoy listening to Mike Pence deny you ever gave it."
posted by zachlipton at 6:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [114 favorites]


Hillary us killing it. Her crack about surviving the debates being a "miracle"...
posted by Surely This at 6:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


That's my point, at this juncture why would you go forward with this, knowing how vile Trump has been?

If there was a grownup liaison for the two campaigns, they could have worked something out, but how could they have a working relationship with enough comfort that either one could back out?
posted by Countess Elena at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016


So I wrote a piece on the history of this dinner for one of the outlets I work for. (Won't self-link, but you're free to click through in my profile and use ye olde Google.) In the past, it was often the only chance candidates had to be in the same room with one another aside from the debates and was an opportunity to send off the election season in a light-hearted way. It may not make much sense, but it's essentially mandatory on the campaign trail as a way to reach out to Catholics and just get the damn election over with.

JFK actually started the ribbing for the first time and, like someone else I am reminded of, his opponent Nixon was crappy and ungracious about it because he had prepared a super boring speech about the sanctity of religion.

Anyway. This does not feel light-hearted.

(N.B.: The audience has booed in the past over issues of abortion and people not attending who were invited, and the foundation/the archbishop have also disinvited people in the past due to their views.)
posted by mynameisluka at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


She's so good but this just reminds me of white men playing on easy mode. I mean she's so much better and "everybody knows it"
posted by zutalors! at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


She is killing it! She's being self depreciating, she's making light fun and bringing in history.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016


Donald looks at the Statue of Liberty and sees a four. #burrrrrn
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


She's going a little low. I hope she lifts up the tone.
posted by stolyarova at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016


"Donald looks at the Statue of Liberty and sees a 4 --- maybe a 5 if she loses the tablet and changes her hair."
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [48 favorites]


The Statue of Liberty joke was perfect.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Actual LOL at "feel free to stand up and shout "wrong"!
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


What Trump just did was an insult to Hillary Clinton, an insult to the Al Smith IV (the host), and an insult to the Cardinal (and thereby the Church). He went and shat all over a charitable dinner and made it about himself. He took a night that celebrates the first nationally prominent Catholic American politician, that raises money for children, that's one of the few things the Church gets good press for (not that they deserve more than they get), and made it sour and mean.
posted by sallybrown at 6:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


."Donald looks at the statue of liberty and sees a four." crowd goes wild.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Teleprompters are harder when you're translating From the original Russian!
posted by chris24 at 6:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


"donald looks at the statue of liberty and sees a 4"
omg!
posted by soakimbo at 6:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I'm not boring; I'm the life of every party I attend, and I've been to three." And every party needs a calm chaperone: Tim Kaine.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


Paraphrasing but she mad a dad joke about Tim Kaine, "When the parties get out of hand it's wise to have a responsible chaperone to get everyone home safely. And that's why I picked Tim Kaine as my running mate"
posted by nathan_teske at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


Why isn't there closed captioning for the dinner ? :(

C-Span's live feed has closed captioning.
posted by duffell at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


ohhh shit "translating from the original Russian" is pretty low too
posted by stolyarova at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ouch - "Translating from The original Russian".
posted by Surely This at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2016


(I am not surprised that Bill is not there. He was not invited in 1996 because he vetoed a late term abortion ban.)
posted by xyzzy at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ohhhhh she's getting brutal
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary: I'm not reading from a teleprompter tonight and that's probably a good thing. Donald dismantled his the other day. And they really are hard to keep up with, esp. when translated from the original Russian.

Oh man.
posted by mochapickle at 6:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


People look at the Statue of Liberty as a beacon of hope, liberty, etc... "Donald looks at the Statue of Liberty and sees a 4. Maybe a 5 if she loses the torch and tablet and changes her hair. Come to think of it, you know what would be a good number for a woman? 45."

"I'm the life of every party I attended. Ive been to 3. And when the parties get out of hand, as they occasionally do, its important to have a responsible chaperone who can get everyone home safely. And that's's why I picked Tim Kaine as my vice president."

Teleprompters are hard to keep up with, "and it's even harder when you're translating from the original Russian."

"This dinner is attended by sensible, mainstream Republicans, or as we now like to call them, Hillary supporters."

"Some of my critics say I only say what people want to hear, and here's exactly what you want to hear: this election will be over very very soon."
posted by zachlipton at 6:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [89 favorites]


RE Bloomberg: I'm dying to hear what a billionaire has to say.
posted by chris24 at 6:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


Oh shit.

Clinton: "Donald looks up and sees the Statue of Liberty and sees a '4'."

YOU GO.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I've seen "Donald looks at the statue of liberty and sees a four" TWICE in political cartoons recently...
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ohhhh snap. She just implied Trump isn't a billionaire.

This is brutal. But hilariously rather than cruel and awkwardly.
posted by Justinian at 6:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


Lololol Rudy looks so mad
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


She's being vicious but it's kind of like a mama panther lazily swatting away an insistent fly.
posted by mochapickle at 6:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


I didn't get the "45 is a good number for a woman" joke. What's this referring to?
posted by adamt at 6:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


RUDY WAS NOT LAUGHING AT HIS RIBBING.
posted by Talez at 6:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


"Donald wanted me drug tested before last night's debate and I've got to tell you I am so flattered that Donald thought I use some kind of performance enhancer. Now actually, I did. It's called preparation."
posted by zachlipton at 6:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [75 favorites]


I wonder if she had a more brutal version and a less brutal one, in case he actually did the right thing for once in his goddamn life.
posted by sallybrown at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I've now stood next to Donald longer than any of his campaign managers."
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


I didn't get the "45 is a good number for a woman" joke. What's this referring to?

Hillary will be the 45th president.
posted by Talez at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [69 favorites]


She's walking a razor's edge. If it weren't a friendly crowd... and she's drawing a few boos anyway.
posted by stolyarova at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I didn't get the "45 is a good number for a woman" joke. What's this referring to?

She will be the 45th US President.
posted by peacheater at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I didn't get the "45 is a good number for a woman" joke. What's this referring to?

45th President of the United States.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


The 45 joke is for the 45th president, which this election is choosing.
posted by Jacob G at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's smiling and not scowling. I think he likes to hear people talk about him if it isn't on certain sore subjects.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


45th president
posted by cmfletcher at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary says DJT accused her of using performance enhancers. She says she is, and it's called preparation.
posted by mochapickle at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm applauding alone in my apartment. Cats are all wth?
posted by soakimbo at 6:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


"Im curious what a billionaire has to say" (re billionaires)

Damn!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:33 PM on October 20, 2016


Holy shit, did Obama write these jokes?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


God I hope I have the opportunity to make Rudy Giuliani that pissed off at some point in my life.
posted by duffell at 6:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [41 favorites]


"[Kellyanne Conway is] working day and night for Donald and because she's a contractor, he's probably not even going to pay her."

"Whoever wins this election, the outcome will be historic. We'll either have the first female President or the first President who started a Twitter war with Cher."
posted by zachlipton at 6:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [56 favorites]


She's getting under Trump's skin.

And Guiliani's. Like a botfly.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Obama didn't write his own jokes
posted by zutalors! at 6:34 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


"People say Donald has no policies, but I'm here to defend him. Donald has issues, serious issues, very very serious issues."
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:34 PM on October 20, 2016 [42 favorites]


Hmm. I kind of wish she'd done this a little lighter, maybe?

Hillary: DJT was sweet to send a car for me. It was a hearse.
posted by mochapickle at 6:34 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Donald has issues. Serious issues."
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wow. He's just terrible. Even at THIS.
posted by juiceCake at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I sort of hear Bruce Vilanch in a lot of these jokes. Is that just me?
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


She should wind this up.
posted by stolyarova at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016


"Donald really is healthy as a horse... like the one Vladimir Putin rides around."
posted by nathan_teske at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


She started out really strong, but the harshness of the last few jokes may not play so well. I hope she picks it up soon...
posted by Surely This at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016


Hillary: Donald really is as healthy as a horse, like the one Vladimir Putin rides around on.

I liked that one.
posted by mochapickle at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016


I'm getting all this second-hand from you guys...is there someone wheeling crates of mics on stage for her to drop?
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Comparison of health disclosures is hilarious.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald is smiling and laughing, good for him.

Rudy was RIGID WITH FURY and it was the best thing ever
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


Obama didn't write his own jokes

Sigh.

THE POINT WAS TO IMAGINE OBAMA GLEEFULLY WRITING THESE JOKES IN HIS BATHROBE FFS
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [45 favorites]


I liked the horse joke
posted by zutalors! at 6:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


"...so let's just rip on Ted Cruz."

Finally, a bipartisan compromise we can believe in.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


"And youngest woman to serve as president"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


"Let's come together, share what unites us, and all just rip on Ted Cruz."
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [58 favorites]


"Donald really is healthy as a horse. You know, the one Vladimir Putin rides around on. But I can say without fear of contradiction that I will be the healthiest and youngest woman ever to serve as President."

"Donald has attacked me for a life in public service, and I didn't get it at first, but I get it now. As he told Howard Stern, he doesn't like women who have been around for more than 35 years."

"A teacher told me a 3rd grader refused to turn in his homework because it was under audit. And here's another similarly, the Republican National Committee isn't spending a dime to help either one of us."

"I said no to some jokes which I thought were over the line, but I guess you can see for yourself on Wikileaks in a couple of days."
posted by zachlipton at 6:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [56 favorites]


Hillary: So tonight, let's come together, share what unites us, and rip on Ted Cruz.

hee.
posted by mochapickle at 6:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Man, Rude was NOT having it.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:37 PM on October 20, 2016


Wow, this stuff about Catholics being treated as "the other" is super.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


I thought she was plenty self deprecating
posted by zutalors! at 6:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's a roast, MetaFilter
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


She's really lucky Donald decided to come out swinging. If he'd done something more in line with the last few dinners (lighter, more self-deprecating), this would have been cringeworthy to watch.

I wouldn't be surprised if she had two sets prepared. Ok, I'd be a little surprised. But not as surprised as I would be with any other candidate doing so.
posted by Justinian at 6:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


"I'm not Catholic, I'm Methodist."

Nice shout-out to the Pope.
posted by Surely This at 6:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


people criticising her for telling mean pg rated jokes really need to remember that "kill the cunt" shirts sell at his rallies.
posted by M Edward at 6:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [90 favorites]


"The Holland Tunnel" works regionally.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:39 PM on October 20, 2016


Now she's getting serious. Talking about anti-Catholic bigotry and appeals to hatred in Al Smith's time and discussing how those appeals make it hard to listen to each other. Talking about embracing the Pope's message of humility and rejecting a "mindset of hostility" and reducing inequality, his warnings about climate change, "building bridges not walls." There's a pretty pointed stick in this message.

"We need to get better at finding ways to disagree on matters of policy while agreeing on matters of civility."
posted by zachlipton at 6:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [50 favorites]


I keep thinking about Donald's forced, pained smile as he nervously rocks back and forth, while Clinton hilariously mocks him onstage in front of New York's most powerful and wealthy people. And it reminds me of all of the bullies I've known in my life. People who put me through hell in elementary and middle school. Thank you, Hillary. Thank you for this gift.
posted by duffell at 6:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [70 favorites]


She's winding up with a speech about tolerance, civility, and kindness, which is where she's strongest, IMO.
posted by stolyarova at 6:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


According to the face of dude on stage right to the speaker, it's a funeral.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:40 PM on October 20, 2016


she's really knocking it out of the ballpark with her concluding remarks
posted by pyramid termite at 6:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's earned it. I'd be working blue if I'd gone through all the shit she's seen.
posted by bibliowench at 6:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


The guy over Al Smith's right shoulder is all sweaty. I bet he's glad this is over.
posted by stolyarova at 6:41 PM on October 20, 2016


Two? It would not surprise me if Clinton had different remarks prepared depending on whether she was first, and if second, how well Trump was handling things. She's the sort of person I had nightmares about going up against in moot court.
posted by Sequence at 6:41 PM on October 20, 2016 [54 favorites]


Al Smith: "An observation. I did see the candidates reach across a great divide tonight and shake hands. I think we should nominate Cardinal Dolan for the Nobel Peace Prize."
posted by zachlipton at 6:41 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I wouldn't be surprised if she had two sets prepared. Ok, I'd be a little surprised. But not as surprised as I would be with any other candidate doing so.

Oh, I'm sure she had a few swap-ins / swap-outs in that folder.
posted by holgate at 6:41 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


She started out self-deprecatory, and ended conciliatory. The middle part was brutal though.
posted by Surely This at 6:41 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


She took some vicious shots, but that speech was well-constructed in blending digs at herself with digs at everyone else. And she didn't just go for Donald or "adversaries" -- everybody got a little taste. Overall, it was well done.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:41 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


she won this - she really did
posted by pyramid termite at 6:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]




The gentleman to the right has been like that the whole time -- sweating profusely, looking uncomfortable. I was thinking the man is truly ill, like a flu or something. I don't think it has to do with the goings-on.
posted by wallabear at 6:43 PM on October 20, 2016


I wouldn't be surprised if she had two sets prepared.

Haha OK I'm choosing to believe this which is easy because it's actually 100% believable.


Or marked paragraphs to omit if he hadn't been mean enough maybe.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:44 PM on October 20, 2016


I think that's called a shit sandwich, isn't it?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:44 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


She and Justin Trudeau are going to look sharp hanging out together.

BTW, they’re also distant cousins - both descended from this couple (along with Madonna, Jack Kerouac, Justin Bieber, etc.).
posted by lisa g at 6:44 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


The main thing she did was spread the jokes around. With Trump, it was all about Clinton and Melania. Clinton had a Kellyanne joke, a Guiliani joke, some self-deprecating stuff, etc... Nothing she said sounded like it came from her stump speech or started as a political attack.
posted by zachlipton at 6:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


I look forward to CNN's instapoll of who was funnier and analysis from their body language expert...

... sigh.
posted by modernnomad at 6:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The gentleman to the right has been like that the whole time -- sweating profusely, looking uncomfortable. I was thinking the man is truly ill, like a flu or something. I don't think it has to do with the goings-on.

He's freaked out because Scott Bakula was supposed to leap in before the primaries.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


BTW, they’re also distant cousins - both descended from this couple (along with Madonna, Jack Kerouac, Justin Bieber, etc.).

Whoa!
posted by sallybrown at 6:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]



He's freaked out because Scott Bakula was supposed to leap in before the primaries.


Instead, he's stuck with Gushie.
posted by drezdn at 6:47 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm really waiting for the 3AM fireworks from Tweakin' Teeth-grindin' Tweetin' Trump.
posted by tclark at 6:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think he likes to hear people talk about him if it isn't on certain sore subjects.

He's been the subject of a Comedy Central roast before, so he should know how this works. That said, I think for that one there were certain topics that were off limits.
posted by Sara C. at 6:48 PM on October 20, 2016


He's freaked out because Scott Bakula was supposed to leap in before the primaries.

And then it was Scott Baio. Shit got weird.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]



BTW, they’re also distant cousins - both descended from this couple (along with Madonna, Jack Kerouac, Justin Bieber, etc.).

Whoa!


Dynasty alert
posted by zutalors! at 6:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


I look forward to CNN's instapoll of who was funnier and analysis from their body language expert...

Here's my pitch for a new reality TV show: Put every political-body-language-expert-for-hire on an island.

There is no competition. There is only the island, where you will live out the rest of your natural lives.
posted by duffell at 6:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


She and Justin Trudeau are going to look sharp hanging out together.

BTW, they’re also distant cousins - both descended from this couple (along with Madonna, Jack Kerouac, Justin Bieber, etc.).


And me! (And pretty much everyone with Québécois ancestry).
posted by dhens at 6:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


This guy as a gif please.

WISH GRANTED.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


I love watching livestreams while they're still running. Trump went out the side door. Clinton's hanging around.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Dynasty alert

NO ONE HAS ASKED FOR CANNED WORMS. PUT THOSE BACK RIGHT NOW.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


yeah, well, you wouldn't believe how many prominent potato farmers i'm related to ...
posted by pyramid termite at 6:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


This guy as a gif please.

WISH GRANTED.


Is that John Daker?
posted by juiceCake at 6:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Dynasty alert
Aren't all but one President related? I thought I read that somewhere.
posted by xyzzy at 6:52 PM on October 20, 2016


*Dolan leans over to Clinton*

I can only imagine what he said.


Dolan on Monday, regarding the inspiration for Trump's "hating Catholics" remarks:
"Extraordinarily patronizing and insulting to Catholics… If it had been said about the Jewish community, the Islamic community, within 10 minutes there would have been an apology and a complete distancing from those remarks, which hasn't happened yet,” said Cardinal Dolan. “I'm hoping that she's going to distance herself from these remarks by her chief of staff."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


yeah, well, you wouldn't believe how many prominent potato farmers i'm related to ...

Poutine Dynasty.

Hey! I smell a reality show...
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:53 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Aren't all but one President related? I thought I read that somewhere.

Technically, we're all related if you go back far enough.
posted by stolyarova at 6:54 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I love watching livestreams while they're still running. Trump went out the side door. Clinton's hanging around.

Henry Kissinger following Hillary Clinton around like the world's creepiest lost puppy.
posted by duffell at 6:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Boston has something similar to the Al Smith Dinner - the St. Patrick's Day breakfast in South Boston. Its recent history is kind of appropriate now, because of the power struggle that erupted over who would emcee it in 2003, when the sitting state senator, who by tradition is the emcee, resigned and was replaced by not another Irish-Catholic guy from South Boston, but a black woman from Dorchester. The local Irish-Catholic guy city councilor tried to stage an emcee coup. He lost and huffed off to Ireland for St. Patrick's Day that year.
posted by adamg at 6:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Following the debates with "Mad Max: Fury Road" was so helpful.
posted by stoneegg21 at 6:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Technically, we're all related if you go back far enough.
I just checked. They're all related through the King who signed the Magna Carta in the 1200s.
posted by xyzzy at 6:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there a place I can watch this after the fact, because it sounds hilarious
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:57 PM on October 20, 2016


Aren't all but one President related?
not to mention them all being 3 degrees from Kevin Bacon.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Extraordinarily patronizing and insulting to Catholics… If it had been said about the Jewish community, the Islamic community, within 10 minutes there would have been an apology and a complete distancing from those remarks, which hasn't happened yet,” said Cardinal Dolan. “I'm hoping that she's going to distance herself from these remarks by her chief of staff."

Well, Dolan has a lot of things to distance himself from, so his presence is just creepy to begin with:

Cardinal Dolan, now the archbishop of New York, has denied shielding the funds as an “old and discredited” allegation and “malarkey.” But newly released court documents make it clear that he sought and received fast approval from the Vatican to transfer the money just as the Wisconsin Supreme Court was about to open the door to damage suits by victims raped and abused as children by Roman Catholic clergy.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


Technically, we're all related if you go back far enough.

I saw that episode too.
posted by juiceCake at 6:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is there a place I can watch this after the fact, because it sounds hilarious

sort of painful honestly
posted by zutalors! at 6:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sure, if you're going to play all Lucy-goosey with geneology they're related.
posted by stet at 6:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


CSPAN will have it archived https://www.c-span.org/video/?416979-1/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-deliver-remarks-al-smith-dinner

(Edit: Actually they have it up already. CSPAN is one of the best things about our country's political system.)
posted by nathan_teske at 6:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


Is there a place I can watch this after the fact, because it sounds hilarious

C-Span now has the recording up.
posted by duffell at 7:00 PM on October 20, 2016


Dolan on Monday, regarding the inspiration for Trump's "hating Catholics" remarks

Oh look, a story about Hillary's religious bigotry reported by Fox News, Newsmax, and my local evening news.

Today I was behind a truck with the following bumperstickers: Trump/Pence, Real Men Love Jesus, Guns Kill People Like Spoons Made Rosie O'Donnell Fat, and a picture of Calvin praying over a cross.

I'm going to Boulder tomorrow. I need a damn break from this place.
posted by bibliowench at 7:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Yeah I was thinking wasn't Dolan the guy in the Boston Globe abuse scandal drama movie?
posted by stolyarova at 7:00 PM on October 20, 2016



Today I was behind a truck with the following bumperstickers: Trump/Pence, Real Men Love Jesus, Guns Kill People Like Spoons Made Rosie O'Donnell Fat


WTF, that's horrible. Boy do I live in a bubble (NYC)
posted by zutalors! at 7:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Secret Service nightmare watching her work the crowd, in such close quarters. She has to be a people person to go as she does.
posted by Oyéah at 7:01 PM on October 20, 2016


I think you are confusing Cardinal Dolan with Cardinal Law, stolyarova.
posted by Justinian at 7:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Still watching the stream as Clinton works the crowd. You can only track her progress through the taller tuxedoed men by the glowing smartphones held up for pictures as she passes.
posted by instamatic at 7:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah I was thinking wasn't Dolan the guy in the Boston Globe abuse scandal drama movie?


No. That was Cardinal Bernard Law. The issue with Dolan was he moved funds around very quickly to prevent victims from being able to get monetary damages. Jesus wept.

Law actually enabled abuse in a very direct way.

This, of course, is no reflection on individual Catholics who are quite rightly horrified by this.

/derail over.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:05 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway: A shout out from @HillaryClinton at #AlSmithDinner

This is actually pretty damn funny. Donald must be fuming.
posted by Surely This at 7:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


I skipped past the Trump part and am just watching the Clinton part. It IS pretty funny so far! Also somebody must've told Trump to for gods sake LAUGH this time
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think HRC killed it. Trump's jokes quickly went below the belt, and were rarely self-deprecating, but Hillary only got a little dirty about Trump but mixed in a lot of jokes about herself. It was humanizing and endearing. She's got good people and good instincts. Trump doesn't.
posted by dis_integration at 7:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Watching back over Trump's speech, he was doing pretty well at first. The initial "what's up with all you people who used to like me?" bit was quite mean, but then he had a self-deprecating bit on his humility that got the audience on his side. The delivery was poor, but people were having fun with it, the jokes were on the lighter side, and while the Jesus comparison was kind of WTF-worthy, he got past it pretty fast. The "pardon me" joke got a pretty good reaction. Then he went to 'nasty woman' and "I don't think so badly of Rosie O'Donnell" and it was kind of a mix of laughter and "you said a horrible thing last night, don't you joke about it." Then, the audience loved the Melania speech joke.

And that's where it turned, rather like that gif from laughter to horror in no time flat. He had a joke about Hillary going to Confession and saying "I can't remember" 39 times that landed sort of flat, followed by: "Hillary is so corrupt [boos start] she got kicked off the Watergate Commission. How corrupt do you have to be to get kicked off the Watergate Commission. Pretty corrupt." And that was it. He launched into a stump speech about how she's been a career politician and hasn't done anything. And the room was gone.

From there, every "joke" started with an attack that could have been from his stump speech. "We've learned so much from Wikileaks. For example, Hillary beleives that it's vital to deceive the people by having one public policy and having a totally different policy in private. [boos] That's ok Hillary. I don't know who they're angry at, you or I [the crowd makes it clear that it is, in fact, Trump they are angry at, because this isn't a goddamn Trump rally where 'lock her up' lines get cheers]." And there was no coming back from how awful it was then. Every "joke" from there was just his stump speech with something that was supposed to be funny tacked on the end.
posted by zachlipton at 7:07 PM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


Yeah, kissinger really was trying desperately to get her attention. It was kinda gross. She nailed it.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Real Men Love Jesus

My favorites are the Trailiner semis that all come equipped with giant signs on the back:
HIS NAME IS NOT "THE MAN UPSTAIRS"!
HIS NAME IS JESUS!
-- Spook Whitener
This has become the favored phrase for my spouse and me to randomly yell at each other in a peevish tone of voice. (After which we inevitably groan about the multifaceted offensiveness of the name "Spook Whitener")
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 7:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


I highly recommend that people check out the last portion of Rachel Maddow's show where she highlights Justice Souter speaking on the emergence of the strongman who promises to fix what is not being addressed and how such things are deadly to democracy.
posted by xyzzy at 7:10 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


Woah and Giulliani did not get the 'laugh' memo
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:11 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I highly recommend that people check out the last portion of Rachel Maddow's show where she highlights Justice Souter speaking on the emergence of the strongman who promises to fix what is not being addressed and how such things are deadly to democracy.

+100
posted by chris24 at 7:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


My new favorite person is the lady over Trump's shoulder taking a Snapchat or whatever while wearing elbow-length white gloves and fabulous sparkling earrings

Oh, I think that's Maria Bartaromo?
posted by Room 641-A at 7:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh man, to be one of the staffers who got to work on these jokes
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:13 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Hillary is so corrupt [boos start] she got kicked off the Watergate Commission. How corrupt do you have to be to get kicked off the Watergate Commission. Pretty corrupt." And that was it. He launched into a stump speech about how she's been a career politician and hasn't done anything. And the room was gone.

Yeah, I thought he was doing fine up until that point. It really took a turn.
posted by zutalors! at 7:14 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


BTW, they’re also distant cousins - both descended from this couple (along with Madonna, Jack Kerouac, Justin Bieber, etc.).

And me! (And pretty much everyone with Québécois ancestry).


Ha, me too (hi, cousin) – I came across that page recently while doing family tree stuff and got excited. But that couple surely has thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of North American descendants, especially since many of their early descendants were Québécois farm families with lots of kids. It’s not like a blue-blooded elite connection – especially since Hillary’s mom (though which that family line comes) overcame a tough childhood of poverty and neglect.
posted by lisa g at 7:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dolan is exactly what you'd expect.

I'm watching the dinner again (muted) and he says something indiscernible to Hillary around the 27:00 mark, after Trump starts going really low, and she says (I think) "okay, yeah". Any lip readers in the thread? Also, everyone close to the podium gets their game faces on, including Maria Bartilromo, and start staring into space or at their plates or looking at Hillary, who's smiling all the way.
posted by holgate at 7:17 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yesterday Mr. Gravy and I went to the NC State fair. Not a single Hillary sticker to be seen-- and to be honest I did not wear my button and I removed the Hillary magnet from the car as it is a big deal for the rural folks. Plenty of Trump/Pence stickers as well as "Proud to support the Confederate tradition" (with the flag pictured) stickers worn by entire families. I would say the racial breakdown was about 95% white.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jesus people I go over to Facebook to opine whether HRC is Griffyndor, Ravenclaw, or Slytherin [...]

Oh, that's easy:

To her friends: Gryffindor
To her enemies: Slytherin
On stage she's: Hufflepuff
Really is: Ravenclaw
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [35 favorites]


Fact check: The zombie claim that Hillary Clinton was fired during the Watergate inquiry.

This is a weird right-wing Twitter meme that won't die. The Post rated it Four Pinocchios. She got paid for her Watergate staff work as long as anybody did, and their work ended because Nixon resigned. Zeifman, chief counsel of the House Judiciary Committee, didn't like her and said a bunch of pretty strongly negative things about her, but she also didn't work for him.

So not only was it an awful mean-spirited joke that marked the turning point in Trump's speech, it's yet more nonsense he pulled off right right-wing Twitter without fact checking it. The speech, it just gets worse the more you analyze it.
posted by zachlipton at 7:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [38 favorites]


He's been the subject of a Comedy Central roast before, so he should know how this works. That said, I think for that one there were certain topics that were off limits.

The Inside Story Of Donald Trump’s Comedy Central Roast Is Everything You Thought It Would Be

posted by Room 641-A at 7:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Woah and Giulliani did not get the 'laugh' memo

I'm curious about this, because as a former mayor and general member of the NYC establishment, hasn't he been to umpteen of these things, going back to at least the Bill Clinton administration, if not the Bush/Dukakis election or even the Reagan/Mondale election? (He was a prominent NYC based federal prosecutor before becoming mayor in 1994.)

Like, he should know the drill with this shit. Or is he so dialed into Trump's koolaid right now that he forgot what the vibe is?

I think this might be the ultimate failure of the Trump campaign. They bring in staffers, surrogates, etc. and instead of being inspired by the collective experience of all of these people, they just force all of them to act like Fox News sycophants turds.
posted by Sara C. at 7:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wow. #basketofadorables is trending on Twitter. Let's enjoy it before the deplorables ruin it.
posted by Talez at 7:21 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is the clip (longer, about 7 mins) of David Souter's interview from 2012 about civic ignorance that Rachel Maddow had on her show tonight. I highly, highly, highly recommend watching it. It is chillingly prophetic. The part Rachel highlighted starts at about 3:50.
posted by gatorae at 7:23 PM on October 20, 2016 [39 favorites]


Her delivery was really good too. Honestly so was his until the corruption thing. This was really something he should have been able to do.
posted by zutalors! at 7:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I couldn't understand why nobody was commenting about the Catholic dinner. As if millions of voices cried out and were suddenly silenced. Turns out I forgot to add the new thread to my recent activity. I'm 3284 comments behind!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


To her enemies: Slytherin

I was raring for Ravenclaw, but then I remembered that she sat on the board of Walmart, because I guess that's what you do if you're in Arkansas and you want to get anything done.

Which led me to the following.

You are the first lady of Arkansas. Do you:

Enjoy the delightful natural landscape of the Ozarks and perfect your cookie recipe? You're a Hufflepuff.

Stay out of the public eye and instead prepare yourself to take on an important judgeship or possibly law professor position at an elite university? You're a Ravenclaw.

Consistently take positions at the forefront of the culture wars, working to educate the local populace and make Arkansas one of the most progressive states in the union? You're a Gryffindor.

Sit on the board of Walmart, because apparently you can't accomplish shit in this dumb state if the Walton family doesn't like you? You're a Slytherin.

YMMV as to which of those is most apt where HRC is concerned.
posted by Sara C. at 7:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


Dolan did not look happy when Trump went too political. Also Hillary and Dolan seemed to be having lot of side talk while Trump spoke. Then when Hillary spoke Trump just sat there. It was a real contrast between the political skills of the two candidates.
posted by humanfont at 7:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Enjoy the delightful natural landscape of the Ozarks and perfect your cookie recipe? You're a Hufflepuff.

You have a very misguided idea of what Hufflepuffs are. Hillary is most definitely a Hufflepuff.
posted by Talez at 7:29 PM on October 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


My grandparents actually voted for Al Smith. And when, 32 years later, they voted for JFK, they remembered that. Which, weirdly, suggests just how brief a period is 88 years. Just three generations.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


After all that HRC said about Trump in this speech he's definitely going to have another loony lashing-out narcissistic injury fit in the next couple of days.

I work the night shift so I'll volunteer to watch for 3 AM tweets...
posted by mmoncur at 7:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


I like that everyone thinks that Hilldawg would be in their house, and nobody thinks that Donny would be in their house. (The facebook conversation that sparked this was in re a Slytherin-identified friend insisting that Trump would NOT be Slytherin.)
posted by Sara C. at 7:35 PM on October 20, 2016


Metafilter: You have a very misguided idea of what Hufflepuffs are.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


Hillary definitely hit harder, got more laughs, was not booed, and was rewarded with standing applause on the dais when she finished. All these things will sting worse than lemon juice in Donald's psychic paper cuts.

I'm smiling so hard.
posted by clever sheep at 7:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


was not booed,

She definitely was, just not by the entire audience.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's a Squib that is convinced he's the Heir of Slytherin.
posted by Archelaus at 7:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


Katie Couric tweeted in real time from the dais, I think only a few seconds after the "corrupt" line.
posted by holgate at 7:38 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I like that everyone thinks that Hilldawg would be in their house, and nobody thinks that Donny would be in their house. (The facebook conversation that sparked this was in re a Slytherin-identified friend insisting that Trump would NOT be Slytherin.)

Trump's a Muggle.


Trump's a trust fund squib who blames Muggles and half-bloods for his every problem.
posted by sallybrown at 7:39 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]




She took a seat on the board of Walmart and she used that power to help elevate women into positions of management. Corporate boards are dominated by men, even today. Feminists trying to create opportunties for women and break down barriers and move us towards a more equitable society can not afford to pass when power is handed to them.
posted by humanfont at 7:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [32 favorites]


Can the meta-filter hivemind help me track down a clip of the speech that is just Clinton's closing remarks, the serious bit there at the end? I think it might prove very useful in making some of my GOP family less terrified of her and I can't find it.

(Also I want to watch it again and again.)
posted by neonrev at 7:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


The problem is, when you look at what motivates The Donald, it's not power, or duty, or curiosity or compassion. It's self. He's not a character in Harry Potter, or Star Wars or Star Trek or even LOTR. He's more primordial than any of those and you've got to go back to the very roots. Ti kallisti and what not.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:47 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


so basically you're saying that he's less one of the rotten kids from Harry Potter and more that he's one of the Discworld gods that lives on faith and attention then
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


so basically you're saying that he's less one of the rotten kids from Harry Potter and more that he's one of the Discworld gods that lives on faith and attention then

More like the giant advertisements destroying civilization from that Treehouse of Horror episode but we're too collectively stupid to look away.
posted by Talez at 7:49 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


Can the meta-filter hivemind help me track down a clip of the speech that is just Clinton's closing remarks, the serious bit there at the end? I think it might prove very useful in making some of my GOP family less terrified of her and I can't find it.

Here's a YouTube link cued up to that point. Good luck.
posted by zachlipton at 7:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


neonrev, the C-Span website has the speech and when you move the scroll bar, it shows who is speaking.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:50 PM on October 20, 2016


I was joking that CNN would bring in their body-language expert to discuss the dinner, but holy fucking shit, they're actually doing it.
posted by modernnomad at 7:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


After all that HRC said about Trump in this speech he's definitely going to have another loony lashing-out narcissistic injury fit in the next couple of days.

I saw a tweet after the dinner that said, "So, I guess we're all meeting here at 3am?"
posted by Room 641-A at 7:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [17 favorites]


MeFi does the Al Smith dinner in 2008 and 2012. Because hey, you've made it to the end of this thread. For now.
posted by one_bean at 7:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Can the meta-filter hivemind help me track down a clip of the speech that is just Clinton's closing remarks, the serious bit there at the end? I think it might prove very useful in making some of my GOP family less terrified of her and I can't find it.

C-SPAN has a really great tool that lets you snip your own portion out of any video on their site. Just click the little scissor icon under the video and it'll open it up. Super easy to use, and you can send a direct link of your edited portion out to whomever you want.

❤ C-SPAN
posted by phunniemee at 7:55 PM on October 20, 2016 [34 favorites]


Rosie Gray @RosieGray So I have a senior Trump source claiming Trump wrote his Al Smith speech himself. 🤔

Bullshit. He didn't write those jokes at the start of the speech. Not the Melania speech joke, which was actually a well constructed joke. I absolutely guarantee that. That man can't write jokes. I believe he tried to write the ones at the end which weren't really jokes but talking points from the debate dressed up as jokes.

I think what the Trump source is saying is "we're not responsible for him veering off script and getting booed."
posted by bluecore at 7:57 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


>> Can the meta-filter hivemind help me track down a clip of the speech that is just Clinton's closing remarks, the serious bit there at the end?

> C-SPAN has a really great tool that lets you snip your own portion out of any video on their site.


I love that tool. 47:17 to 51:05
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 8:00 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think that's called a shit sandwich, isn't it?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:44 PM on October 20


Where'd they print that? That's not real, is it? You can't print that!
posted by petebest at 8:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think he didn't get the "got the jokes in advance from Brazile" joke and asked Clinton to explain it.

There's another exchange after that after the Haiti bit. It may just be Cardinal Dolan talking about what he'd do when Trump finished and returned to his seat, but it was an interesting point at which to bring that up.

"corrupt" started it, but "...pretending not to hate Catholics" is when he really lost the room.
posted by holgate at 8:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I see that the usual deplorables have declared that Trump's intention was to be booed by globalist elitist corrupt banker-politician-media ((())) etc.

Keep eating those shit sandwiches, you fuckers.
posted by holgate at 8:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


C-SPAN has a really great tool that lets you snip your own portion out of any video on their site. Just click the little scissor icon under the video and it'll open it up. Super easy to use, and you can send a direct link of your edited portion out to whomever you want.
Thanks! Here's Rudy not getting it.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 8:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Sometimes I wonder, if he hadn't made those "macaca" comments or been found out, if the GOP would have gotten George Allen elected to president. Or if Mark Sanford had not been caught for cheating.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:12 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


So a highschool friend who I didn't like much to begin with, and I'm relatively sure is a prepper, just posted a status about how trump playing fascist with "rigged election" is indiscernible from Al Gore contesting 2000. I posted a rebuttal, and then he replied. How worthwhile is it for me to continue this train of thought, given that his rebuttal was 100% shit from breitbart and the rest of the lunatic fringe? He did thank me for representing a POV that he's not familiar with, which makes me disinclined to absolutely clowning on him until his defriends me, as I'd typically do in this situation, but also indicates that his brain is absolutely beyond reason.
posted by codacorolla at 8:13 PM on October 20, 2016


Did I miss something about Clinton and Catholics? Was there even a straw man of a reason he would say such a thing?
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 8:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


There was a wikileaks thing where a campaign person said something not great about Catholics.
posted by Jalliah at 8:18 PM on October 20, 2016


honest to God, I'd be relieved if Trump would just started ranting loudly about the One World Computer God - at least then we'd know for sure he's actually seriously ill and not just playing to a base. Then maybe he could get some help.
posted by Queen of Robots at 8:19 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Did I miss something about Clinton and Catholics? Was there even a straw man of a reason he would say such a thing?

Podesta and some left wing nutjob were having a pow-wow on making the Catholic church more progressive by subterfuge.
posted by Talez at 8:19 PM on October 20, 2016



honest to God, I'd be relieved if Trump would just started ranting loudly about the One World Computer God - at least then we'd know for sure he's actually seriously ill and not just playing to a base. Then maybe he could get some help.

Being a tremendous asshole is not a mental illness.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't know who was the woman in the red dress and white gloves, but kudos to her: her look was very Sophia Loren.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:20 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


codacorolla: I can't imagine it being very productive to argue over the nuances of that, when nobody knows if it would even happen or how it would play out.
posted by aubilenon at 8:21 PM on October 20, 2016


Octobersuprise that was Maria Bartiromo.
posted by humanfont at 8:23 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


The David Souter speech from the end of Maddow mentioned earlier. Really worth watching.

@MaddowBlog: "That is the way democracy dies." http://www.snappytv.com/tc/3059228/1704747
posted by chris24 at 8:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


that was Maria Bartiromo

Ah! I only know her through Joey Ramone's song.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


@MaddowBlog: "That is the way democracy dies."

I thought that was to thunderous applause.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Jim Murphy, Trump's national political director who stepped down earlier today, was in charge of GOTV for the campaign. So things are going well clearly.
posted by chris24 at 8:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Someone asked about the psychological damage and I described, yes, I don't like his sniffing or his hair. Frivolous things of course, there is much more to quarrel about.

Then I saw the tape of Robert Deniro saying he wanted to punch him in the face. I thought for a moment I would like to see that. It's so unlike me. Of course I don't want to see anyone punched in the face. Ever. There's no reason or logic in violence.

He still made me feel that way. And he said so much more. About women, faith, race. It's a sick impulse, and I do not condone it. I understand if you feel like you want to punch him.
posted by adept256 at 8:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


ADL Releases Report About Anti-Semitic Targeting of Journalists During 2016 Presidential Campaign – Tablet Magazine
One of the report’s more surprising and actually most disturbing findings is the concentration of anti-Semitic tweets targeting a very small group of journalists: The ADL reported that while 800 journalists received over 19,000 anti-Semitic tweets, 83 percent of such tweets were sent to the 10 most-targeted journalists.
[...]
Within this top 10, by far the most targeted user is Ben Shapiro, the former Breitbart columnist and current editor-in-chief of The Daily Wire. Shapiro received just about as many hate-tweets as everyone else in the top-10 combined [...]
Ben Shapiro's own take on this: 6 Thoughts on Being The #1 Journalistic Target of Jew-Hatred
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Being his own kind of awful on Twitter. The way he's been targeted is odious, but - like Egg - he's still a proponent of terrible policies and ideas.
posted by stolyarova at 8:47 PM on October 20, 2016


I'm not a fan of his, but that's really beside the point. He doesn't deserve to be the target of antisemitic abuse.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


The post-dinner C-SPAN rhubarb-rhubarb chat after Trump leaves by the side door is fascinating all by itself. Chris Matthews with a serious face, Katie Couric rushing in with a big grin, a long and engaged chat with Chuck Schumer, a brief word with Maria Bartilromo toting her fur coat, a peck on the cheek for Henry Kissinger, selfies with Couric, Norah O'Donnell talking to Huma. And the Secret Service detail in dinner jackets with white (regular) ties.
posted by holgate at 8:51 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I completely agree, Joe - nobody deserves that kind of targeted hate. But lalex asked what Shapiro's been up to, and the answer is, being a conservative on Twitter.
posted by stolyarova at 8:53 PM on October 20, 2016


Samantha Bee has posted an early draft [fake] of Hillary's jokes from the Al Smith dinner
posted by humanfont at 9:01 PM on October 20, 2016 [26 favorites]


Yeah, Clinton fell flat in the middle a few times, then she gave it a breath, let the audience know they've been heard, and then pivoted around to a safe joke. This was probably great preparation and the perfect tactic for this sort of thing. I think one of Trump's worst flaws as a speaker is that he doesn't doesn't know when to give up beating a dead (for the room) horse. He just pushes the volume.

Clinton was an awkward comic, but comes off as endearing because of it. Then she shifted to the closing speech and all the awkwardness falls away. She starts local with Al Smith as a person and goes global. She acknowledges differences and tries to make connections. She contextualizes charity within larger ideals. The joke about giving the audience what they wanted had a double meaning, because that conclusion was the sort of speech they wanted to hear, at the event they payed to attend.

Trump, in contrast, didn't really have much of a closing speech. He delivered a bunch of slogans and soundbites strung together around a cash value for the event ("net! net!"). From my big-steeple, United Methodist background, I suspect many in the room would see that emphasis on the dollar value ("net! net!") a bit crass. Dog-whistling your anti-immigration agenda at a fundraiser for an urban Catholic children's charity is really misreading the room.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:04 PM on October 20, 2016 [24 favorites]


I still think it is ridiculous that either candidate was invited. Pence and Kaine would have been perfect for this.
posted by xyzzy at 9:07 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


The presidential candidates usually speak, except for a few times the Church got huffy.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:13 PM on October 20, 2016




The post-dinner C-SPAN rhubarb-rhubarb chat after Trump leaves by the side door is fascinating all by itself.

Yes, that was really interesting indeed, especially from the perspective of networking and relationship management. It's interesting that HRC was practically the last person left on the dais, ready to work the room until the very end. The body language of the men was also really interesting, too. Very attentive, with just a couple of men touching her, including Kissinger, with his hand gripping the nape of her neck.

It's pretty obvious Clinton is comfortable around people, and commanding. And she understands men (in what is typically a male-dominated trade).

Funny how Trump ran away early. He doesn't have the human touch, really. Not a politician.
posted by My Dad at 9:15 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's going home to research each individual booer so he can insult them on twitter while weeping quietly to himself at 3:30 a.m.
posted by haveanicesummer at 9:18 PM on October 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


Not a politician.

Not to defend him (god fucking forbid), but I'm pretty sure his supporters think this is a feature, not a bug.
posted by dersins at 9:19 PM on October 20, 2016


If that's too serious, you may enjoy BAD HOMBRES, NASTY WOMEN (ft. "Weird Al" Yankovic)- Songify 2016!

That was assembled in under 24 hours? Let it not be said America is not great.
posted by psoas at 9:22 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


The Church should be huffy about a racist and intolerant demagogue who gives no fucks. And to avoid the appearance of favoritism, disinvite the pro-choice candidate, too. Get a couple of religious guys in there to make nice with the charity and avoid an evening where a bunch of people in gowns and white tie and tails watch a man abuse and bully a woman for a good cause.
posted by xyzzy at 9:22 PM on October 20, 2016


For those of you interested in the Souter clip above, here is a link to the full video from the event at which Souter spoke. It's about an hour and a half. I intend to just listen to the audio on my phone.

Souter also gave the commencement address at Harvard in 2010. (Shout-out: I'm only aware of it because it was once discussed on MetaFilter.) The speech is suitably big-picture for a commencement address. It basically answers the question: "Why is constitutional law not a simple thing?"

It sounds like a dumb question, but it's an important question. A growing faction of the GOP is pushing the idea that constitutional law follows a look-it-up-and-see-what-it-says formula.

Souter gives the example of a 21-year-old graduate who wants to be a senator. The Constitution says he has to be 30. The court looks up what the Constitution says, and rules against the 21-year-old. But this is not what reality looks like. The Supreme Court generally does not try cases where they just look up the rule and see what it says.

And yet, there are people who reject our complex reality, clinging to a belief that law is basically a matter of checking obvious facts against unambiguous reference manuals.

An extreme version of the look-it-up-and-see philosophy was on display during the Malheur refuge takeover earlier this year. The militants there carried pamphlets promoting "the idea that the Constitution, like the manual of a car, is a set of explicit instructions that detail how to operate a republic without need for interpretation or modernization."

It's a silly philosophy, but it has its adherents. The Republican party platform this year called for transferring federal land to the states, in large part because fringe thinkers have loudly pushed the idea that there is no legal basis for federal land ownership.

The problems that Souter discusses in the Maddow clip are reflected in the commencement speech. The "just look it up" true believers at Malheur have rejected the possibility of complexity because of the "pervasive civic ignorance" that also makes a strongman leader appealing.

Here is Souter explaining why the just-look-it-uppers are wrong :
The reasons that constitutional judging is not a mere combination of fair reading and simple facts extend way beyond the recognition that constitutions have to have a lot of general language in order to be useful over long stretches of time. Another reason is that the Constitution contains values that may well exist in tension with each other, not in harmony. Yet another reason is that the facts that determine whether a constitutional provision applies may be very different from facts like a person’s age or the amount of the grocery bill; constitutional facts may require judges to understand the meaning that the facts may bear before the judges can figure out what to make of them. And this can be tricky.
(The concept of "fair reading" is, I think, most closely associated with Justice Scalia; the whole thing also kind of functions as a why-Scalia-is-wrong explainer.)

Trump's candidacy is a symptom of the growing unwillingness to accept complex or nuanced approaches to justice. His rise has been made possible by civic ignorance.

Anyway. Go read or watch the commencement speech.
posted by compartment at 9:25 PM on October 20, 2016 [67 favorites]


Rosie Gray @RosieGray
So I have a senior Trump source claiming Trump wrote his Al Smith speech himself. 🤔


In response:
In other words, the campaign is Meredith McIvering him to the press. No one wants to take the blame.
--@JoyAnnReid

Meredith!
posted by zachlipton at 9:26 PM on October 20, 2016 [57 favorites]


The thing that's impressed me the most this cycle (and one nice thing about a long campaign season) is the show-don't-tell factor.

The DNC was well-produced with impressive speakers. The RNC was amateur hour. Clinton's campaign videos are slick, powerful, exactly on point, and rapid turnaround. Trump's, shitty memes and late-night-tv-commercial quality. Her surrogates know what they're doing, his, obvious Baghdad Bob paycheck cashers. Her strategy team has outplayed his at every turn, his make obvious mistakes. Her speechwriter is fucking good. He writes his own speeches.

The creative class and the hyper-competent are all on one side and it shows. He can't pay enough money for competent help. That's the charitable interpretation, because the other is he doesn't know it when he sees it.
posted by ctmf at 9:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [23 favorites]


He takes all the credit for himself and shoves off all the blame to somebody (anybody! doesn't need to be a real person!) else.

If he thinks this was a "take the credit" event, he's WRONG.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:33 PM on October 20, 2016


> > I didn't get the "45 is a good number for a woman" joke. What's this referring to?

> Hillary will be the 45th president.
She's also making a subtle pun connecting herself back to the Statue of Liberty via her "Donald looks at the Statue of Liberty and sees a 4 --- maybe a 5" joke. Pretty brilliant stuff.
posted by Coventry at 9:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


In response:
In other words, the campaign is Meredith McIvering him to the press. No one wants to take the blame.
--@JoyAnnReid

Meredith!


Every time Meredith comes up, I immediately think of Meredith.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:34 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


My god, I just watched the Al Smith speeches from Obama and McCain in 2008. Did we know we lived in a golden age of amity and even-temperedness? It feels like a million years ago now.
posted by argybarg at 9:35 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


If you need a palate cleanser after the Al Smith dinner, I offer this Mexican street vendor dumping churros on an unsuspecting man’s head. It's relevant to the thread, er, because she's protesting government regulations.
posted by zachlipton at 9:37 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, someone on my radar recently commented about going back to watch debates from the past and how civil they were. I watched most of the Perot/Nader campaign doc that is playing these days on PBS, and the clips they showed were jarring compared to now. Of course I remember them being boring as shit, but funny how that goes. Suffice it to say, sports are too popular nowadays.
posted by rhizome at 9:42 PM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ms. Reid also retweeted an interesting Fred Trump factoid--the KKK rally Fred was arrested at was protesting Irish Catholic police suppression of "native-born" American Protestants.
posted by xyzzy at 9:46 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


I did see a tweet that went along the lines of, "Note to millennials: debates have not always been like this."

If the Overton Window is about moving policy frameworks, the Donald Window is about shifting what is and isn't acceptable behavior personally. We excoriated Bush the Elder for looking at his watch, Donald can call a Gold Star family un-American and still walks around without being repeatedly punched in the solar plexus.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:47 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


The Al Smith dinner was my palate cleanser after the debates.
posted by soakimbo at 9:50 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Fred Trump

I assumed this was covered in one of the early election threads, but a search for Mary Trump came up empty. If people think he's been trying to live up to his father, well he will never rock a hairstyle like his mother.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:58 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Being from Louisiana, I have a lot of conservative Catholic friends who bought the "Hillary hates Catholics" thing hook, line, and sinker. The saddest thing is that they don't realize they are the end of the "first they came for..." cycle, where Trump and his ilk are concerned. They all think they're in on white supremacy, but they seem to have forgotten that the Klan was built to hate Catholics as much as they hate black people, immigrants, and Jews.
posted by Sara C. at 9:59 PM on October 20, 2016 [27 favorites]


Bad Hombre cologne: for those times when just acting like a dick isn't enough. Now, you can smell like one (The Bad Hombre font really sells it)
posted by filthy light thief at 10:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I watched and wish I hadn't. Events like this with the 1% hobnobbing angry up my blood. They raised $6,000,000. Wow. Is that a lot? Clinton could've written a check for $10 million and she's far from the richest person in the room. Trump supposedly could write a check for $100,000,000.

Trump was terrible, going from awkward to offensive, with a complete lack of understanding of the event. Clinton was better, but I thought she was a little too harsh at times.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:02 PM on October 20, 2016 [6 favorites]




Given that Clinton got any boos at all...what're the odds the majority of the media narrative on this is more of the same old "both sides" nonsense?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:03 PM on October 20, 2016


I understand if you feel like you want to punch him.
Nope. Just to see him thoroughly defeated.
posted by bearwife at 10:06 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I legit guffawed my way through Hillary's Al Smith speech. She's damn good at taking the piss out of herself.
posted by palomar at 10:08 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


A Night of Laughter, Charity, and Boos: The Candidates Struggle to Remain Civil at the Al Smith Charity Dinner
In the context of one of the most contentious elections ever, this year’s dinner promised to be one of the most outlandish, and potentially uncomfortable in history. For the most part, the candidates did not disappoint.
Donald Trump Heckled by New York Elite at Charity Dinner
Donald J. Trump began this quadrennial exercise in campaign humility and self-deprecation on Thursday by comparing himself to the son of God — just another “carpenter working for his father” in his youth.
...
Breaking with decades of tradition at the gathering once he took the microphone, Mr. Trump set off on a blistering, grievance-filled performance that translated poorly to the staid setting, stunning many of the well-heeled guests who had filed into the Waldorf Astoria hotel for an uncommon spectacle: an attempted détente in a campaign so caustic that the candidates, less than 24 hours earlier, declined to shake hands on a debate stage.

Relations did not much improve.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:09 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]




My brother, who is wonderful, wrote the following and posted it to Facebook:
So, real talk - there's a presidential election coming and I think everyone should vote for Hillary. Like, 100%. And I would LOVE to see men, white men, voting overwhelmingly for Hillary, because allies and because I would like to see Trump fail even where his support was supposed to be strongest, and because it's a demographic I belong to and I kind of like the idea of that group, justifiably maligned, being even slightly redeemed by turning our backs on the bigotry and reactionism Trump represents.

But what I would REALLY like to see, and what would make me break into a HUGE smile come election day, is if women and minorities poured into the breaches of this election with turnout numbers NEVER BEFORE SEEN IN HISTORY. I would like to to see women and minorities be the force that drives up the results to such a lopsided victory for Hillary that the republican party is left reeling for generations to come. I would like to see the right-wing tea-party that collaborated to nominate trump collapse completely under the weight of this onslaught. I would like Trump's movement, and everything it stands for, left broken and ashamed, and for its fields to be sown with the bitter salt tears of defeat. And I want that because Trump has been an actual bully toward those groups, and because women and people of color have been bullied by people like Trump for decades and for centuries. And so I think it's right and just and poetic for them to get the honor of delivering the fatal blow, at least within the scope of this election. And I want Donald Trump to personally understand that by maligning these marginalized demographics he provoked a political storm he had no hope of surviving, and that he weeps real tears of defeat in the face of the forces he has brought to bear on himself and his allies.
Proud to be related to him, I tell you what.
posted by KathrynT at 10:16 PM on October 20, 2016 [117 favorites]


TRUMP: Hillary is so corrupt, she got kicked off the Watergate Commission. How corrupt do you have to be to get kicked off the Watergate Commission? Pretty corrupt.
First, this isn't a joke. Like, at all. It's the sort of thing that belongs in a Trump rally, to be followed by chants of "lock her up." It's not, you know, funny.

Second, "Hillary is so corrupt" is not a good setup for a joke. It's hard for me to imagine an ending to that line that would be acceptable for this setting.

Third, Watergate was the corrupt thing. This could be an effective attack if she had been deemed too corrupt to be a Plumber, but "too corrupt for the Watergate Commission" doesn't make logical sense.

Fourth, the guy waving around thousands of documents stolen from his rival's campaign probably shouldn't be telling any Watergate jokes, period.

Fifth, he repeats the word "corrupt" three times, just to rub it in.

Sixth, "someone who wasn't her boss said ugly things about her amid an ugly turf war over one of the ugliest scandals in the country's history" when she was 26 and fresh out of law school is a stupid basis for an attack, let alone a joke.

Seventh, the premise is factually untrue, as anybody can find out with a single search on their phone, and it's based on some stupid right-wing twitter meme his staff copied and pasted into his speech without verifying it.
posted by zachlipton at 10:22 PM on October 20, 2016 [42 favorites]


KathrynT... can I steal that for my facebook? (With attribution to a fellow MeFite's brother of course!)
posted by Hairy Lobster at 10:25 PM on October 20, 2016


I choose to believe that "Hillary is so corrupt" was an attempted Match Game riff, and Donald had no contingency plan for when the audience failed to respond, "How corrupt is she?"
posted by knuckle tattoos at 10:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


November 8th will be 100 years and one day after the election of the first U.S. congresswoman.
posted by longtime_lurker at 10:28 PM on October 20, 2016 [64 favorites]


"Hillary is so corrupt" was an attempted Match Game riff, and Donald had no contingency plan for when the audience failed to respond, "How corrupt is she?"

"Hillary is so corrupt that instead of money, you have to bribe her with [blank]."
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:31 PM on October 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hairy Lobster, feel free -- or if you Memail me I'll give you his name so you can find it and share it from there, he made it public on purpose for sharing purposes.
posted by KathrynT at 10:32 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Seventh, the premise is factually untrue, as anybody can find out with a single search on their phone, and it's based on some stupid right-wing twitter meme his staff copied and pasted into his speech without verifying it.

Sadly, his base believes it to be true, and now hearing him repeat it in the debate will further inoculate them against any interest in facts.
posted by frumiousb at 10:32 PM on October 20, 2016


Donald Trump just turned a charity dinner into a screed against Hillary Clinton
It was an awkward setup: The two major-party candidates for president attending a charity dinner in which they were supposed to tell lighthearted jokes about each other just 24 hours after a heated debate.

Supposed to.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:34 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"How corrupt is she?"

Well Julie, I just wrote "anus."
posted by en forme de poire at 10:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Dumb Donald is so dumb..."
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:36 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


Project Veritas is a 501(c)4.

No, Project Veritas has been registered by the IRS as 501(c)(3) which is a public charity like the Clinton Foundation. Donations to Project Veritas are tax-deductible charity donations. This is similar to the charity portions of the ACLU or the Sierra Club, which are not permitted to advocate for specific legislation or candidates, while legally promoting social welfare. Project Veritas states that its purpose is to expose corruption and fraud and to train journalists in corruption exposure.

Trump's donation from his foundation to Project Veritas is legal under IRS rules.
posted by JackFlash at 10:43 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I would like to to see women and minorities be the force that drives up the results to such a lopsided victory for Hillary that the republican party is left reeling for generations to come.

And indeed, make them so afraid to piss off women ever again that half of their core shtick becomes politically radioactive overnight.
posted by ctmf at 10:45 PM on October 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump's donation from his foundation to Project Veritas is legal under IRS rules.

Provided it was not payment for services rendered to the campaign/Trump.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:47 PM on October 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


November 8th will be 100 years and one day after the election of the first U.S. congresswoman.

Oof.

Can we pick up the pace now?
posted by an animate objects at 10:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'm really perplexed by why the Democrats don't have a deeper younger bench.

When Al Gore was elected president in 2000, no one had heard of Barack Obama. He was an Illinois state senator who had just lost a congrssional race that year. So I really wouldn't worry about who the Dems will have running 8 years from now. It could be anybody (over 27).
posted by msalt at 10:56 PM on October 20, 2016 [22 favorites]


This charity roast dinner shit should probably go ahead and die along with the White House correspondents dinner.

This is the fucking president of the United States and leader of the free world here, they don't need to also entertain us with hackneyed comedy sets for the benefit of 1% donors, even assuming any hypothetical Republican candidate could be trusted to participate in good faith.

Democracy is serious. It's not entertainment. Shit like this is how we got Trump in the first place.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:03 PM on October 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


no one had heard of Barack Obama. He was an Illinois state senator who had just lost a congrssional race that year.

Exception rather than a rule, don't you think? And as soren_lorenson said upthread, gerrymandering and huge amounts of GOP money spent on state races by people like Art Pope chokes the pipeline. On the Dem side, recruitment for Senate races has been a bit shit, hence Murphy & McGinty, and the DCCC hasn't been up to snuff either (see: DWS). Elizabeth Warren didn't get the kind of institutional support that Martha Coakley received in both of her losing statewide races.

they don't need to also entertain us with hackneyed comedy sets for the benefit of 1% donors

Sadly, it's not massively different from high-dollar private fundraisers. At least this one is for charity, though very much in the NYC donate-to-schmooze mould.
posted by holgate at 11:26 PM on October 20, 2016


No, Project Veritas has been registered by the IRS as 501(c)(3) which is a public charity like the Clinton Foundation.

It's even more complicated. There are two Project Veritas organizations. Project Vertitas is a 501(c)(3). Project Veritas Action is a 501(c)(4). The videos that were released now officially came from Project Veritas Action. The Trump Foundation presumably donated to the 501(c)(3).
posted by zachlipton at 11:27 PM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can't believe the NYAG gave the Trump Foundation an extension.
posted by Yowser at 11:31 PM on October 20, 2016


I can't believe the NYAG gave the Trump Foundation an extension.

Here's some more rope, see you on November 9th.
posted by mikelieman at 11:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Hillary is so corrupt... that even I couldn't afford to bribe her!" Would have at least diffused the boos due to taking aim at both of them.

I actually think Hillary would have absolutely decimated him even more if she didn't mention him once and only talked about herself.
posted by haveanicesummer at 11:33 PM on October 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


no one had heard of Barack Obama. He was an Illinois state senator who had just lost a congrssional race that year.
Exception rather than a rule, don't you think?
I dunno. Counter-argument would be that the Internet has increased information speed so much that pre-2000 experience doesn't apply, and people can rise faster now. Also, the lack of a track record is a huge political advantage since negative attacks are so well honed now. Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz were both first term senators clearly copying Obama's playbook. Donald Trump had no political experience at all (aside from his brief, forgotten run in 2000) and no one would have predicted his nomination 8 years ago.

gerrymandering and huge amounts of GOP money spent on state races by people like Art Pope chokes the pipeline.

Certainly did in 2010-2014. However, there's a reasonable chance that a reconfigured Supreme Court will attack both gerrymandering and Citizens United, changing all of that. And again, political experience is a mixed blessing in an era of cynicism about poltiicians. Arguably the best candidate might be a younger James Carville type, wise to all of the political tricks but without a public record to attack.
posted by msalt at 11:40 PM on October 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ok, finally got to watch Clinton's bit from the dinner. Quick question: did Trump's Secret Service detail take the night off? Because that nice lady fucking murdered him.
posted by um at 11:48 PM on October 20, 2016 [56 favorites]


I skipped out because there was a food truck event in town that I didn't want to miss out on since I don't get to eat at the food trucks much. So what I'm saying is that I would have watched the debate, if he had taco trucks on every corner.

I actually got back about halfway through the debate, and I made a few attempts to watch what was left but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I am so glad Trump is losing because just watching him talk is so infuriating and I don't know if I could last through his presidency, especially if I get thrown in a reeducation camp and am forced to watch his videos in that chair from A Clockwork Orange.

Anyway, it's a bit over a day now and I'm finally caught up. I saw in one of the comments that one of the Trump kids brought back the signing the front of checks and not the back thing, after the temporary return of Spy reminded everyone about the time they sent him a 13¢ check.

Also, I can't be the only one who heard Alfred E. Smith dinner and spent a few moments trying to remember the name of the Mad Magazine mascot.
posted by ckape at 12:30 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Because it was mentioned upthread, and because after the past few days you might be in need of a little musical palate cleanser: "Maria Bartiromo" by Joey Ramone.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


was not booed,

She definitely was, just not by the entire audience.


No. Those were Wooos. As in "Wooooo...oh no she di'unt"
posted by sexyrobot at 1:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald J. Trump began this quadrennial exercise in campaign humility and self-deprecation on Thursday by comparing himself to the son of God — just another “carpenter working for his father” in his youth.

He actually compared himself to Jesus!?

OK, when his campaign started, like many people, I thought it was a joke campaign, with the object to stick it to Jeb or possibly to help Hillary get into office. Then I thought, OMG, he's doing it for real and really wants to be president.
But now I'm not so sure anymore, as this is starting to look more and more like an art project or possibly the most elaborate prank in the history of ... history.
posted by sour cream at 2:14 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


The third poll straight shows Trump and McMullin basically neck-and-neck in Utah, with Clinton a small distance behind both. This one has Trump at 30%, McMullin at 29%, and Clinton at 25%. (The two before were 27/31/24 and 30/29/28; they come from three different polling organizations.) All three polls were conducted before the third debate.

This is a real thing.
posted by kyrademon at 2:15 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


In my experience, history as an academic discipline attracts conservatives out of proportion to what one would find in other humanities.

You may be very right, but my experience is 100% counter that. The best history teacher I ever had was a literal Went-to-Woodstock-Hippie. I honestly can't imagine any of my other secondary school history or government teachers being anything but liberal. My government teacher was the one who arranged for me to volunteer with Clinton's 96 campaign because she was a volunteer herself.

And the only two history courses I took in college were simultaneously history and Women's Studies, so once again, yeah no.

With one exception all these teachers/profs were women. The one who wasn't was a gay man.
posted by threeturtles at 2:25 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, I can't be the only one who heard Alfred E. Smith dinner and spent a few moments trying to remember the name of the Mad Magazine mascot.

You maybe do need the Alfred E. Neumann Dinner: the candidates have to sit there while people make fun of them. That said, having watched HyperNormalisation the other day, it seems that that's how we're in this mess in the first place, so maybe not.

(Seth Myers: this is all your fault.)
posted by Grangousier at 2:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


"So, Roger Stone is supposedly organising an "exit poll" in "Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Fort Lauderdale, Charlotte, Richmond and Fayetteville" and is currently recruiting volunteers. Given Stone's reputation, it sounds either like trolling or a dirty trick designed to get around the consent decrees that stipulate the kind of poll-watching the RNC and local GOP branches can do."
So, it could be an intimidation goon squad, but my suspicion is that it's a set-up to "prove" that the elections was "rigged" for anyone dumb enough to believe their made-up numbers. If so, whether it's an effort to delegitimize a Clinton administration or an actual platform from which they plan to launch an attempt to contest the election results, it sounds like Bad News.
posted by kyrademon at 3:02 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


No. Those were Wooos. As in "Wooooo...oh no she di'unt"

Boo-urns
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:20 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


This debate has made me feel so sick. Why did I do it? Why did I...

Well, why did Hillary let you do it? She's been running things for years, she could have banned all that junk food, you just bought what she allowed you to buy and ate it. She could have changed the law, you would have been fine with that, but she didn't. She's all talk.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [38 favorites]


Remember what happened 100,000 years ago when a woman people didn't like ran for President against a blowhard who had no clue what he was doing? (warning: BSG spoilers)

WTF dude that was like the biggest spoiler of all right there.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Ok, Hillary killed the Al Smith speech. Good for her. She's got good writers too.
posted by mazola at 3:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump's one genuinely funny joke came at his wife's expense, so there's that.
posted by mazola at 4:17 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I love how happy and comfortable in her skin she is looking these days. She must be utterly exhausted, but she is owning every space she's in.
posted by Cocodrillo at 4:20 AM on October 21, 2016 [41 favorites]


It has to be a relief how badly Trump has blown the end of the campaign. Her debates with bernie were way tougher.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:25 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is Chris Wallace leading Trump?



Well, someone has to.
posted by tilde at 4:29 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]



And indeed, make them so afraid to piss off women ever again that half of their core shtick becomes politically radioactive overnight


They had that whole "maybe we shouldn't alienate women and minorities" post mortem after 2012 and it changed...absolutely nothing. When the party is chock full of actual white nationalists and retrograde misogynists, even the fear of losing elections bigly can't make that leopard change its spots.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:30 AM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


When the party is chock full of actual white nationalists and retrograde misogynists, even the fear of losing elections bigly can't make that leopard change its spots.

They're also not losing elections besides the presidency. They always have the house as a bulwark against progressives because it's gerrymandered to hell and they have 31 state houses which they aren't going to be losing anytime soon.
posted by Talez at 4:41 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think Hillary's Al Smith Dinner speech was intended to bait Trump into running again in 2020.
posted by klarck at 4:49 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Mod note: A few comments deleted. Reminder that this isn't a chat app, and we don't need hundreds of extra comments about if some sites are up or down for each member (apparently NYT and twitter down for some, okay).
posted by taz (staff) at 4:52 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


In my experience, history as an academic discipline attracts conservatives out of proportion to what one would find in other humanities.

another anecdatum: I went to grad school in history a firm social democrat, but found myself to the right of most of my class because I wasn't a Marxist and thought markets aren't perfect (far from it) but are still necessary in the exchange of goods and services - with heavy regulation and lots of social safety net programs, of course.
posted by jb at 5:10 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


My Dad: "I blame Oasis. They ruined everything."

omg WONDERWALL

IT ALL FITS
posted by XtinaS at 5:13 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


The Al Smith dinner is important (at least to me) because it usually shows that the ire of a campaign can be put aside for a night and even the two people most involved in the race can meet each other respectfully as fellow humans and can show that they take some things more seriously than they take themselves (here, a good cause). Because it's almost always the last time the two candidates are together before the election, it's a way for them to show they will end the race on good terms. The years when this doesn't happen - this year, or 1996 (when the Church broke with tradition to play holier than thou with Clinton) - say something disheartening about the health of our political culture.

My favorite Al Smith dinner joke is Romney's from 2012 saying it was nice for him and Ann to relax and kick back in the clothes they wear around the house. That's how you do it.

I think it's pretty amazing how many years this dinner has been going on and the kind of legacy it gives Al Smith, who was treated so hatefully by a large part of his country. I would hate to see it end.
posted by sallybrown at 5:17 AM on October 21, 2016 [75 favorites]


Democracy is serious. It's not entertainment. Shit like this is how we got Trump in the first place.

No it's not. That has to do with the GOP and their chosen tactics, leadership and media environment.

The people in government are human beings like the rest of us, and they have a need to laugh at themselves and blow off steam. This is much more for the people involved than for us. I can't imagine how bleak government would be for all of us if nobody were allowed to laugh. Count me out.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:19 AM on October 21, 2016 [52 favorites]


WaPo: At charity roast, Donald Trump delivered what might as well be a campaign eulogy

Seems to be outside the paywall. Covers DJT's disastrous 24 hours following the debate.
“The politicians,” he continued. “They've had me to their homes, they've introduced me to their children, I've become their best friends in many instances. They've asked for my endorsement, and they always wanted my money. And even called me really a dear, dear friend. But then suddenly, decided when I ran for president as a Republican, that I've always been a no-good, rotten, disgusting scoundrel. And they totally forgot about me.”
posted by mochapickle at 5:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm reviewing the notable events of 2016. I'm quite stunned by what's happened and bracing myself for 2-ish more months to go.

This year has been...quite something.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


The people in government are human beings like the rest of us, and they have a need to laugh at themselves and blow off steam. This is much more for the people involved than for us. I can't imagine how bleak government would be for all of us if nobody were allowed to laugh.

That may have been the case for a while, and, sure, politicians deserve a rest and a laugh, but once this event started to get televised it was no longer just a nice easy night off, it too became part of the campaign and joke writers became a necessary part of the staffs.

We can disagree over the value of this event, but I just can't see it as it's been advertised anymore due to the changes in how we view elections and who might be fit to govern.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:29 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Y'all, I just learned Fred Trump's middle name. I insist that you google it. I won't ruin the thrill of discovery for you.
posted by duffell at 5:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [49 favorites]


But then suddenly, decided when I ran for president as a Republican, that I've always been a no-good, rotten, disgusting scoundrel. And they totally forgot about me.


If you can't find the sucker, it's you. Welcome to the bigly Donald.
posted by srboisvert at 5:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Y'all, I just learned Fred Trump's middle name. I insist that you google it. I won't ruin the thrill of discovery for you.

(Spoiler alert, don't click the below if you want to preserve the surprise)

Warren Ellis, you magnificent bastard.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:44 AM on October 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


And they totally forgot about me.

Nowadays every Trumpy wanna talk like they got something to say.
posted by box at 5:44 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


No. Those were Wooos. As in "Wooooo...oh no she di'unt"

Boo-urns


Woo-urns
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:49 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


“The politicians,” he continued. “They've had me to their homes, they've introduced me to their children, I've become their best friends in many instances. They've asked for my endorsement, and they always wanted my money. And even called me really a dear, dear friend. But then suddenly, decided when I ran for president as a Republican, that I've always been a no-good, rotten, disgusting scoundrel. And they totally forgot about me.”

Such total lack of awareness and reflection. They were never your friends, Donald. You were a sack of money to them. A vile, hideous creature that they forebore because you, unfortunately, could help them.
posted by papercake at 5:52 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


So essentially, Trump's presidential bid both began and ended with an absolutely brutal roast in front of some of the most influential people in the country.

If he had any capacity for self reflection whatsoever I wonder how he'd process that
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [61 favorites]


the exact day the Senate passed the 19th Amendment granting women the right to vote

Something I learned right here on MeFi, apologies that I don't remember the OP:

"the exact day the Senate passed the 19th Amendment granting white women the right to vote"

Key detail. Also, HRC 2016 F#*k Yeah!
posted by petebest at 6:03 AM on October 21, 2016 [20 favorites]


Dynasty alert

Aren't all but one President related? I thought I read that somewhere.


Actually, You don't have to go back very far before most people of with particular ethnic backgrounds are related. It seems to surprise people, but your number of ancestors expands geometrically each previous generation while the overall human population decreases in size as you go back in history. At some point nearly everyone within a particularly ethnicity is distantly related. (There is often a prolific king with many mistresses involved in the common relation; the canonical example is most folks with any European background being related through Charlemagne, but for most people you don't need to go back nearly that far.)
posted by aught at 6:05 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been thinking a lot about what Trump will do when he loses. As with all things Trump, I think it's helpful to think about how an 8 year old rage-filled bully without a shred of humility would handle losing BIG in public.

So one possibility, obviously, is saying the other side cheated and shouting about how it's not fair. This is probably the likeliest scenario (I mean, he's already doing this, and the election isn't for another few weeks). We've talked a lot about this scenario and its frightening implications here on Metafilter.

But there's another possibility, maybe not as likely, but also completely in keeping with the behavior of an 8 year old bully trying to save face in the midst of a crushing defeat. He might laugh it off like, "Whatever, I never wanted to be president anyway, this is stupid." And the angrier he gets, the more he insists he doesn't care: "you're all stupid for thinking I was serious! Gullible idiots!"

Even if this isn't the likeliest outcome, I WANT TO BELIEVE, because this is one of the few things he could do that might turn the hateful mob he's been leading against himself.

Any other 8 year old bully scenarios I'm missing?
posted by duffell at 6:07 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Whatever, I never wanted to be president anyway, this is stupid."

Donny Jr. started laying the ground work for this by saying after the debate that the presidency would be a step down for Trump. But I don't think he'll go full 'I was punking you' because he needs adulation and the racist nutjobs give it to him. Even with a Andy Kaufman-esque reveal, the New York elites and liberals never will.
posted by chris24 at 6:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd guess he might just not say much of anything at all right away and just start up his new TV venture, where he'll start dropping hints about himself being the real winner much like he's been doing with Obama not being a real US citizen.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:12 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Second, "Hillary is so corrupt" is not a good setup for a joke. It's hard for me to imagine an ending to that line that would be acceptable for this setting.

Donald Trump Rickles.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:14 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


> "They were never your friends, Donald."

Very possible. On the other hand, there's someone I've called a friend for decades. We've known each other since before high school. She helped me find a job once. She's always been kind of a nutty conspiracy theorist, but I mostly chuckled to myself about it and let it pass. We never talked about politics much, although I knew she thought of herself as a libertarian. A few years ago, though, she started being all about gun rights and became convinced that Obama was going to come and take everyone's guns away. I thought she was being crazy about it, but it mostly got eyerolls from me.

This year, though ... this year, she's started spewing all kinds of vile, hateful, bigoted bullshit. Stuff that would have been unacceptable even if I didn't know any of the kinds of people she was denigrating. I do, though, so on top of that it made me feel like I'd have been betraying other people I'm close to if I let it pass. I tried to call her on it. She doubled down. She's voting for Trump.

Guess how I feel about her now?
posted by kyrademon at 6:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [22 favorites]


He'll probably call a press conference after the election promising a big speech and use it to introduce his new platform, if that is what he's going to do next, and find some sort of weasely way to neither concede nor make specific threats, "just watch Trump TV to see what I'm going to do!"
posted by gusottertrout at 6:17 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


They were never your friends, Donald.

Nah, I'm with Donald on this one. Hypocrisy is a big seller among many of the "elite".
posted by gusottertrout at 6:19 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah he's going to do the Huckabee/Palin thing where he sits around in the media market for years lapping up sucker money while occassionally feinting to make it conceivable he might run for President again.
posted by selfnoise at 6:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Second, "Hillary is so corrupt" is not a good setup for a joke. It's hard for me to imagine an ending to that line that would be acceptable for this setting.

Hillary is so corrupt that even fsck couldn't repair it!
posted by Talez at 6:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [38 favorites]


By all reports from people who've worked closely with him, though, the man doesn't actually have friends as we would recognize the term. He has toadies, he has employees, he has social acquaintances, he has family, but he doesn't have friends. So no, none of those people were friends. They were people he saw at parties all in the same social scene, but he wasn't, like, inviting them around to Trump Tower to watch the big game or anything.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:25 AM on October 21, 2016


Hillary is so corrupt *slips on a banana peel, hair flaps aways to safety*
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:25 AM on October 21, 2016 [18 favorites]


His base will turn on him shortly after his concession.

He's not going to concede.
posted by longdaysjourney at 6:27 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, my money is on no concession from Trump himself. Pence might have something vaguely conciliatory to say, there will probably be some statement from Paul Ryan, but Trump himself won't say the words. He will pivot directly over to TrumpTV to immediately begin delegitimatizing the Clinton presidency before she's even inaugurated.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:30 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


A couple of very interesting things this morning...

1. NPR did a big piece this morning on Trump's illegal lobby group that was trying to block a casino in the Catskills, because it would be competing with his own. He was fined for that and it was one of the few occasions he paid up.

2. The northeast USA is having a DDOS attack, targeting a DNS server that Twitter uses. It seems to be clearing up now, but this morning I wasn't able to read ANY of the quotes y'all were posting from the Smith dinner. (I'll try again shortly!)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:32 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


By all reports from people who've worked closely with him, though, the man doesn't actually have friends as we would recognize the term.

Which both might partly explain why he acts as he does, not having any base other than privilege to judge normal human behavior and why he would believe people who claim to be great friends of his since he has little to compare them to as a reference. I just don't believe these same people wouldn't swarm back around him were he to miraculously somehow find himself in good graces with the spotlight again. See Richard Nixon "Statesman" for a previous example. Media and politics thrive on that kind of two faced positioning.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:33 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


You know, I think all this sturm und drang about the election being rigged means that all the honest public servants who are in charge of polls throughout the nation are going to be ready to be extra meticulous. When Trump goes down in flames, it's going to be the most heavily witnessed, highly validated, tripled-documented landslide in American electoral history.
posted by Sublimity at 6:35 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Assuming there is no concession from Trump, and the results are not formally declared until the EC votes, is there any legal way an Electoral Voter might squirm out of their vote (in, say, a swing state) on the basis of a "rigged" election?
posted by Tevin at 6:42 AM on October 21, 2016


Also, if Ted Cruz doesn't slither away into the shadowy crannies of his home planet, we get to watch him attempt to summit the moral high ground with a shattered spine. So there's that.
posted by stolyarova at 6:43 AM on October 21, 2016 [19 favorites]


This seems very dubious, since apparently the poll is from a Lexington TV station and I have no clue what their methodology or sampling technique is, but Kentucky is reported within three points.
posted by jackbishop at 6:43 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


It'd be wild if Trump didn't win any states and McMullin ended up being the one to concede to Clinton.

(That's my ideal outcome, don't ruin it for me.)
posted by gusottertrout at 6:45 AM on October 21, 2016 [30 favorites]


Y'all, I just learned Fred Trump's middle name.

Christ, what an asshole.
posted by albrecht at 6:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [49 favorites]


@johnjcook: sophisticated russian attack on u.s. internet designed to aid trump by preventing him from tweeting
posted by chris24 at 6:47 AM on October 21, 2016 [66 favorites]


what i don't understand is that given the past few weeks, how is there still a surplus of corn on the market?
posted by entropicamericana at 6:48 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


A lack of concession from Trump would of course be terrifying but ...

Would it?

I think it's what everybody expects at this point.
In that sense, there is no "suspense" at all about the whole thing. In fact, the big surprise would be a concession.

Come election day, Trump will give the expected "The election is rigged!! She cheated!! I will not concede!!" shpeel and everybody will be like "yeah, you said that before. Yawn."
posted by sour cream at 6:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Paul Ryan's epic cowardice

It's a pretty sure bet he'll be opposed for House speaker next term.

Ryan is putting out statements calling for the repeal of Obamacare

Hey Moe! Hey Moe!

Spread owwwwt!

*konk!* *skreek!*
why I oughta
posted by petebest at 6:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Surprised that Trump's play to not release his taxes has worked out relatively well for him, but it almost makes sense in a cut-throat sort of way. There was never any real up-side for him to reveal.

He can take the hit on not following the tradition of releasing because his brand is to be non-traditional. It doesn't hurt that his fig-leaf explanation is basically that the IRS is a yuge pain in the ass.

Presumably the taxes would be a hit on his reputation as a businessman, one way or the other, and that would seem harder for him to weather. That's the heart of both the campaign and his self-image. Even if it was squeaky clean, a businessman isn't going to want to give away all that data to his competitors.

I guess it exposes him to a greater down-side if the documents were to leak late in the game. We'll see over the next week or so if that pans out.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 6:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tevin: "Assuming there is no concession from Trump, and the results are not formally declared until the EC votes, is there any legal way an Electoral Voter might squirm out of their vote (in, say, a swing state) on the basis of a "rigged" election?"

You're thinking of faithless electors.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:56 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


His base will turn on him shortly after his concession.

I've seen this mentioned several times here but I am not convinced. His Angry Male supporters will see his loss as even more evidence that the system is rigged against them. His White Suburbanite supporters are more anti-Hillary than pro-Trump. They'll just move on to the next demagogue. It will be interesting to see if Trump's ego will allow new base contenders get equal time on Trump TV.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:56 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Surprised that Trump's play to not release his taxes has worked out relatively well for him

For a strange definition of "well."

I think it hurt him badly by undermining his central narrative of being appalled at Hillary's purported lack of transparency.

Fucking two bit loser, that one.
posted by spitbull at 6:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just hope that on the day after the election, the big news outlets will not choose the obvious headline "You're fired" with a big picture of Trump.
Because that would make it all about him again.
posted by sour cream at 6:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Nah it has to be "LOSER!" in 72 point type.
posted by spitbull at 6:58 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


Yeah, I don't find a Trump non-concession to be terrifying in and of itself. It would be 100% consistent with everything he's said and done up to this point. There's no legal requirement for a concession, so in that regard it's not that big of a deal. The man has shat all over our system of government for, what, 16 months now? Nothing to see here.

The terrifying part comes in with the as-yet-unknown desire of his base to actually do anything about it. He can say he doesn't concede and the election is rigged until he's blue in the face. What we don't know right now is whether he'll go farther than that and commit more stochastic terrorism, and if he does whether anyone will take him up on it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:59 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Y'all, I just learned Fred Trump's middle name.

It was his mother's maiden name. What's up with the name-shaming, anyway? First "Drumpf" and now this? I have coworkers with names like "Goshit" and "Ashit"; is that laughable too?
posted by Slothrup at 6:59 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


Under "MADAME PRESIDENT" in 112 point type.
posted by spitbull at 6:59 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Surprised that Trump's play to not release his taxes has worked out relatively well for him, but it almost makes sense in a cut-throat sort of way. There was never any real up-side for him to reveal.

Not in the sense of full disclosure and honesty, no, but it opens him up to other attacks that Clinton has been using. Like noting in the debate that he's probably not paying any tax and would dodge whatever taxation methods she came up with to balance the budget anyway, which prompted the "nasty woman" remark that's not doing Trump any favors either. And didn't she make a "real billionaire" crack last night? She's mostly avoided doing those, but others have been making them. The really simple way for Trump to avoid those attacks is to release his returns, but nope.
posted by LionIndex at 7:00 AM on October 21, 2016


> "The really simple way for Trump to avoid those attacks is to release his returns ..."

... unless those attacks are, in fact, true.
posted by kyrademon at 7:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


GOP congressman on Clinton: 'A lady needs to be told when she's being nasty'

And sadly, Dems didn't even put up anyone to run against him.
posted by chris24 at 7:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Hillary is so corrupt..." has a windup but lacks a punchline, and the punchline is everything for something like that, even if it's just "chicken butt!" If you pull the audience into a joke like that, you need to provide more than yet another campaign slur.

"Donald Trump is so orange."
("How orange is he?")
"He's so orange, he volunteers for St. Patrick's Day parades as a traffic barrel."

(Bonus if you can mime Trump as construction barrel and fit in a foghorn like, "wrooong.... wrooong.")
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:03 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


WaPo: The debates are over. Trump lost. But here’s why he feels as if he won.
For him, it was always about ratings and attention, not polls and votes.

...

There are lessons here for future presidential candidates, not the least of which is that television debates follow their own rules. Trump attempted to remold the debates to reflect his own personality, while Clinton steeped herself in the conventions of the genre, and used those conventions to put her rival on the ropes. Trump brought ice skates to a tennis match, finding out the hard way that you can’t win a presidential debate if you don’t understand what a presidential debate is.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:05 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


... unless those attacks are, in fact, true.

Yes, exactly. If he releases them and the attacks are true, he loses his biggest bragging points. But, he's getting attacked on those anyway, so not releasing them isn't buying him a single thing.
posted by LionIndex at 7:05 AM on October 21, 2016


to which Babin responded, "Well, I'm a genteel Southerner, Alan."

Oh, bless his heart. (I'll leave Texans to judge whether they're from the south.)

Babin's a dentist. Of course he is. He got 75% of the vote in 2014, and his predecessor got 70% in 2012. I think every House seat should have a Dem challenger, even with just a nominal campaign, but he's not going anywhere.
posted by holgate at 7:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Here are another thing that I am seeing: Trump's death spiral is making him look weak, small, ineffectual, and whiny to his alpha-worshipping authoritarian male base. I see signs of this all over, actually. It feeds his overcompensation, aggression, mania, and rage. And his projections. He lives by dominance game so and he is now losing one -- to a WOMAN.

Think of every time you've seen a bully get his comeuppance in life. When finally beaten they cave and whimper and turn their hate finally back on themselves -- after exhausting every weaker target in their orbit and losing all of their once intimidated and sycophantic followers fast. Those followers often turn on the bully.

Trump put it all on red and it's coming up black.

His followers may foment trouble but it won't be on his behalf. Likely a new demagogue will arise from their midst (Bannon?) with more self discipline, and we need to be on that like shit on a boot heel.

But Trump himself is cooked. He will become what've he most fears: a loser. A reject. A laughingstock.

In his followers' eyes he will have let them down. They will not spare him the rage that keeps them tripping.

And they will call him a "cuck" eventually, mark my words.
posted by spitbull at 7:12 AM on October 21, 2016 [22 favorites]



The 'nasty' thing is really is really interesting at just how quickly it's moved from insult to something not an insult as well as how quickly it's moved to common knowledge.

Last night in class I had to do a presentation on part of project which ended up with me doing a brief lesson on the software I used. No big deal to me but it impressed people. Someone asked how long I'd been using the software and when I said that I just picked it up last week specifically for the project they commented about how that was really cool.
Without thinking I quipped back, "Well you know me, I'm naaaasty." It got a really big laugh. And one 'You go girl'.
And this is up in Canada!
posted by Jalliah at 7:13 AM on October 21, 2016 [29 favorites]


From the Washington Post:

Hours after that, Trump sat on the lavish dais, decorated with pale roses and white orchids, with his arms tightly folded as the glittering elite of New York repeatedly laughed at him.

I was so disappointed when I scrolled down to the photo and Trump was not bedecked with flowers.
posted by Daily Alice at 7:18 AM on October 21, 2016 [35 favorites]


Nah it has to be "LOSER!" in 72 point type.

Nope, it will be "SCHLONGED!"
posted by teirnon at 7:18 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary Clinton, Mocking and Taunting in Debate, Turns the Tormentor
She mansplained him. “Let me translate that if I can,” Hillary Clinton said dryly after Donald J. Trump talked up his tax plan.

She interrupted him. When Mr. Trump boasted of the gilded Las Vegas hotel that bears his name, Mrs. Clinton leaned into her microphone. “Made with Chinese steel,” she quipped with a smile.

She mocked him. After Mr. Trump said President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had “no respect” for her, Mrs. Clinton slyly posited why Mr. Putin seemingly preferred Mr. Trump: “He’d rather have a puppet as president of the United States,” she said.
Omg, the NYT embracing the concept of mansplaining lol
posted by moody cow at 7:19 AM on October 21, 2016 [38 favorites]


I saw somewhere that Louie Gohmert was being suggested as a replacement to Paul Ryan. Mean and stupid: yeah that sounds right.
posted by emjaybee at 7:20 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


I bet Trump thinks he won his divorce cases. He got off cheap with just his wives' age-related depreciation and an NDA to boot.

What a leech. Today all over the media it seems like the blood is now in the water.

Now we need the Downfall parodies.
posted by spitbull at 7:20 AM on October 21, 2016


Mod note: Couple comments removed, let's just skip the reappropriating-other-folks-awfulness shit please.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:20 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]




His base will turn on him shortly after his concession.

What Trump chooses to do after the 8th will determine that. At this point I think it's hard to say. If Trump turns on his supporters—not an improbable thing to imagine happening—they may all go down in a fury of back-biting and recriminations. If he chooses to pretend to continue to be their champion, then he probably keeps some percentage of his hardcore fans for as long as he wants them. Whether there will be enough of them to do any more than just keep Steve Bannon living in the style to which he is accustomed is the question.

Krugman this morning,
"When political commentators praise political talent, what they seem to have in mind is the ability of a candidate to match one of a very limited set of archetypes: the heroic leader, the back-slapping regular guy you’d like to have a beer with, the soaring orator. Mrs. Clinton is none of these things: too wonky, not to mention too female, to be a regular guy, a fairly mediocre speechifier; her prepared zingers tend to fall flat.

Yet the person tens of millions of viewers saw in this fall’s debates was hugely impressive all the same: self-possessed, almost preternaturally calm under pressure, deeply prepared, clearly in command of policy issues. And she was also working to a strategic plan: Each debate victory looked much bigger after a couple of days, once the implications had time to sink in, than it may have seemed on the night.

Oh, and the strengths she showed in the debates are also strengths that would serve her well as president. Just thought I should mention that. And maybe ordinary citizens noticed the same thing; maybe obvious competence and poise in stressful situations can add up to a kind of star quality, even if it doesn’t fit conventional notions of charisma."
Why Hillary Wins
posted by octobersurprise at 7:25 AM on October 21, 2016 [43 favorites]


My big reward for surviving the last two days of Shitshow Extraordinaire is enjoying the stunning new Leonard Cohen album that arrived this morning -- although "You want it darker, we kill the flame" is perhaps a bit too perfect a summary of the last year.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Guardian has an article about a book that Trump delegate & donor Peter Thiel wrote in the mid-90s. It's genuinely horrible, typical MRA & white nationalist drivel.
posted by papercrane at 7:29 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


spitbull: Here are another thing that I am seeing: Trump's death spiral is making him look weak, small, ineffectual, and whiny to his alpha-worshipping authoritarian male base.

I'm starting to realize how much Trump is the essence of PUA. Somebody talked upthread about Trump's response to accusations about taxes, cheap labour, Chinese steel, etc.: Instead of denying the accusations, he confidently asserts that they're good things, that they prove how good he is at what he does.

Responding that way, you might not be surprised to learn, is standard PUA advice. It makes you look strong, they say, instead of defensive and weak.

And of course there's the misogyny, indifference to consent, indifference to relationship status, the peacockingest peacocking that ever peacocked, resentment at not being handed absolutely everything he thinks he's entitled to, an obsession with being "alpha", an obsession with rating women numerically by "hotness", and an affinity for women who are seen as docile because they're from an economically disadvantaged part of the world. He's pretty much the Ur-PUA.
posted by clawsoon at 7:30 AM on October 21, 2016 [25 favorites]




I tend to think some of Trump's base will stay with him, but I'm not as worried about armed insurrections (especially since Malheur did not cover anyone with glory). Trump has some talent at speaking to the ids of (certain) people, but that's not the same as being truly inspiring or even able to put together a movement, and at his core, he's lazy and self-interested. He is for himself only and when he gets bored, he stops trying. And he will always screw over anyone who works with him. That limits his base. And now that the shine is off, many people will drift away.

I think the ones that cling to him will do so because no one else will let them validate their terrible racist/sexist feelings; meanwhile, Trump is becoming more radioactive by the day to most mainstream outlets, so he might cling to them for the validation he constantly requires.

But whether he can build a media empire? Well, given the state of his financials + his loss, who is going to lend to him? Are there enough racist true believer rubes to give him that money? Maybe. Maybe he still has favors to call in from other rich people.

Ideally, he actually loses his shirt, no one wants him, and has to go live on whatever charity he can scrape up or scam he can run. Or goes to jail.
posted by emjaybee at 7:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm not getting within 20 miles of Trump's visit today, but I will note that the weather turned for the worse this morning after a week of unseasonably warm and bright days.

In the meantime, the curtailment of early voting times and sites in NC's biggest cities (where GOP-controlled county boards resisted all aspects of the federal court ruling that they could) means four-hour queues to vote. I have seen "voter ID not required" signs posted in a few places.
posted by holgate at 7:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Something I learned right here on MeFi, apologies that I don't remember the OP:

"the exact day the Senate passed the 19th Amendment granting white women the right to vote"


Are you confusing the 19th amendment with the second section of the 14th Amendment, which restricts its application to "male inhabitants" and "male citizens"? The 19th Amendment does no such thing with regard to race.

Or are you for some reason attributing to the 19th Amendment the various abuses and persecution used to terrorize black men -- and, after the passage of the 19th Amendment, black women -- alike out of registering to vote or actually voting?

Or what?
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Want to know if Donald Trump is lying? Just Google it."

I'm reminded of one of Kool A.D.'s best lines:

"If you don't get it, get a computer and Google it.
If you find out all the reasons we the shit, then you the shit."
posted by komara at 7:39 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Speaking of early voting problems!

The other night I did some phone banking at my local office to remind people that Tim Kaine was going to be in our neck of the woods on Wednesday. Exciting!

While we’re making calls I’m also chatting with my organizer who asks me if I’ve voted yet, because early voting is opened in Ohio. I haven’t yet, but she started to tell me about the first day of voting, and how the first voter for our county was a volunteer we both know. Also exciting!

“But,” she tells me, “The republican guy wasn’t able to vote.”

“Wait, what why not?”

“The local offices pick the people they want to be first in line, right,” she says, “And the GOP office didn’t vet this guy very well because he had an absentee ballot.”

Absentees, I learned, must vote with their absentee ballots.

To recap:

- A Trump voter
- Hand picked by the local campaign office
- Unknowingly attempted to commit voter fraud

What a perfect encapsulation of the entire campaign! The staff knew the rules well in advance, but they didn’t take the time to vet the voter they had chosen to make sure he could do the one job that the had to do. And, in the process, ended up doing (or attempted to) the egregious thing Trump has been accusing his opponent of doing.
posted by Tevin at 7:41 AM on October 21, 2016 [78 favorites]


Nah it has to be "LOSER!" in 72 point type

Nah, forget him. Just a single big H as headline. Subhead, Country not stupid after all.
posted by ctmf at 7:42 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Subhead, Country not stupid after all.

Man I would love this.
posted by zutalors! at 7:44 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just realized that November 8 is the absolute latest day that can be Election Day in the US, which means we get almost an extra week of this horror show; another reason to hate 2016.
posted by PearlRose at 7:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


I want Hillary only above the fold on November 9. Donald on the right hand column below the fold in 12 pt.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:47 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


2016 has actually been a good year for me personally, fingers crossed - but the second half of last year was a total shitshow so maybe I just got it early.
posted by zutalors! at 7:48 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm super curious about the Trump/Local GOP GOTV operation after attending the HFA GOTV training here last week. This shit is complex, and timed down to the minute. There are two dry-run weekends where we'll be canvassing as if it's Nov. 5-8, just to iron out all the kinks. Each staging area (there's one in every neighborhood here in the city) is staffed by 3-4 volunteers who work all day to keep the stream of door-knockers flowing and report everything up the chain to Philadelphia (PA HQ) and Brooklyn on a tightly scheduled basis. Orders flow back down that chain to re-allocate any surplus volunteers to precincts that need them. Data is entered on a continual basis. There are four canvassing shifts every day. It's nucking futs. And I really really cannot imagine the same campaign that couldn't get it's shit together enough to get a bio in the Alaska voter guide or register any candidate at all in... what as it, Michigan? can even attempt an operation of this magnitude.

This election is going to be an amazing experiment in just how much GOTV actually matters. I really hope political scientists are out in the field right now taking copious measurements.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:49 AM on October 21, 2016 [27 favorites]


> Assuming there is no concession from Trump, and the results are not formally declared until the EC votes, is there any legal way an Electoral Voter might squirm out of their vote (in, say, a swing state) on the basis of a "rigged" election?

Why do people keep bringing this up as though a concession had any relevance except to how the loser is perceived (asshole/not asshole)? The concession speech has no legal importance, and how could it?
posted by languagehat at 7:51 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


In my dream version of a presidential debate, when Trump is carrying on about how he's going to hire the best people and they're going to solve every problem the U.S. has, HRC responds with something along the lines of, "You mean the way you hire the best hairdressers, makeup artists and tailors, Donald? Perhaps you should give my team of stylists a call," and hands him their card with a little toss of her perfectly coiffed hair.
posted by orange swan at 7:51 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Why do people keep bringing this up as though a concession had any relevance except to how the loser is perceived (asshole/not asshole)?

Because of fears that some Trumpistas will see this as a cause for violence.
posted by Slothrup at 7:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Want to know if Donald Trump is lying? Just Google it. (video)

Yet again, I say: it has to be so much fucking fun to work on the Hillary campaign. This shit practically writes itself.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Get this from the Thiel book:

Thiel expressed some regrets about the book in a 2011 New Yorker profile, saying that he wished he had never written about an incident in which future PayPal executive Keith Rabois stood outside the home of a university staff member and shouted, “Faggot! Faggot! Hope you die of Aids!” – an action intended to provoke discussion of free speech.

I am a university staff member. Let me tell you, if a student follows me off campus and stands outside my home harassing me, I will call the cops. That's really scary.
posted by Frowner at 7:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


I want Hillary only above the fold on November 9. Donald on the right hand column below the fold in 12 pt.

MADAME PRESIDENT
Country not stupid after all
Donald Trump denies yet more allegations (page A26)
posted by emjaybee at 7:55 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


> Because of fears that some Trumpistas will see this as a cause for violence.

Sure, I get that (and I have the same worries), but people are talking about it in a legal context.
posted by languagehat at 7:55 AM on October 21, 2016


> Why do people keep bringing this up as though a concession had any relevance except to how the loser is perceived (asshole/not asshole)? The concession speech has no legal importance, and how could it?

I guess I wasn't clear. I understand the concession speech is only a formality, but my question is less about the speech and more about Trump's reason for not conceding: that the election is rigged.

Would an EC voter have any justification to turn faithless if they claimed that they could not cast their vote for Clinton while a candidate accused the election of being compromised? Basically I'm trying to figure out how likely these EC voters are to follow Trump into the abyss rather than accept the results.
posted by Tevin at 7:58 AM on October 21, 2016


Would an EC voter have any justification to turn faithless if they claimed that they could not cast their vote for Clinton while a candidate accused the election of being compromised?

Technically speaking, if there isn't a law against it in a particular state (and those laws have never really been tested), an Electoral College voter doesn't need any justification. But EC voters aren't randomly selected -- a state that goes Clinton is going to send Clinton people to the EC vote.
posted by Etrigan at 8:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


On the lighter side, near where I grew up in Nova Scotia Trumpkin people making halloween great again.
posted by papercrane at 8:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


You know what, never mind me, I think I was just very confused about how the EC actually worked.

homersimpsonbush.gif
posted by Tevin at 8:04 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


How An Awkward Charity Dinner Summed Up the 2016 Campaign.
That said, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who sat in between Clinton and Trump at last night's dinner, appeared on "Today" and described some touching moments that weren't caught on microphone. "After the little prayer, Mr. Trump turned to Secretary Clinton and said, 'You are one tough and talented woman,' Dolan said. Clinton then returned the compliment. 'She said to him, "Donald, whatever happens we need to work together afterward,"' Dolan said."
posted by Sophie1 at 8:05 AM on October 21, 2016 [27 favorites]


Yet again, I say: it has to be so much fucking fun to work on the Hillary campaign.

Indeed. SNL had a news bit in which they talked about the Billy Bush recording, said, "Now we'll go to Hillary Clinton's campaign headquarters to get her reaction to this news," then cut to a live video feed of Hillary Clinton and her staffers having an ecstatic dance party. Once the news anchor managed to get Hillary's attention, she faced the camera, put on an appropriately serious face, and said something like, "Of course we are all SHOCKED and APPALLED by Donald Trump's behaviour," before rejoining the dance party.

It was funny because I'd bet money that the Clinton campaign office does occasionally stop work to whoop it up over the news of Trump's latest idiocy in a very similar fashion.
posted by orange swan at 8:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


(tw) What It's Like to Experience the 2016 Election both as a Conservative and a Sex Abuse survivor
My party — which should’ve been a place of a certain set of values — now shelters an abuser. I’m thinking of this when the GOP presses against me and asks me to close my eyes just one more time.
posted by nubs at 8:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Someone upthread mentioned hoping Clinton's comma team becomes something or other in the administration. Stories like soren_lorensen's and the many similar ones I've heard make me hope her planning and ops sections become FEMA.
posted by ctmf at 8:10 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, the candidates/parties pick their own electors. Bill is one of Clinton's NY electors, and DJT Jr. is one of Trump'a NY electors. There's (almost) no reason electors would ever want to flip.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:10 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why do people keep bringing this up as though a concession had any relevance except to how the loser is perceived (asshole/not asshole)?

Because this is how it's supposed to work, and how it's always worked. Just like Trump not releasing his taxes, or saying that he's going to have Hillary show-trialed if he wins, or name-calling during the debates, or acting as if it's completely normal to brag about sexually assaulting women. The further this election gets from How All Of This Is Supposed To Work, the more likely we are to forget how things are supposed to work, and the more Trump '16 enables More Skilled Fascist '20 or '24.

As it is, the thing hasn't even happened yet and it's already providing a framework for Republicans to blame Democrats for George W. Bush stealing the 2000 election, and for people to use the Bush/Gore election endgame as an excuse to question the peaceful transition of power in this country in general.
posted by Sara C. at 8:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


Okay, you can't make this up (or being Wikipedia, maybe you can). Donald Trump is the grandson of Elisabeth Christ who died: June 6, 1966. 6/6/66. (In the Omen, that was the birthday of the antichrist) In fairness, she sounds like an interesting woman.
I'm a skeptic who nonetheless likes to play games with such things as death days/birth days: e.g., who was born the day Hitler died (nobody famous that I've found). So, Alex Jones, I've done your homework for you.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:13 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Concessions don't have legal significance but are hugely important because they demonstrate the democratic process has worked and the candidate is acknowledging the will of the people. To refuse to accept election outcomes is an existential threat to democracy itself.
posted by bearwife at 8:13 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sheldon Adelson Has Reportedly Had It With Donald Trump:
Fox Business reported that before Wednesday's debate, Adelson had sent an email to Trump, telling him to stop attacking fellow Republicans like House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI), and to spend more time focusing on issues than complaining about media coverage. Though Trump has since quieted somewhat about his fellow Republicans, he continues to blame the national media for "rigging" the election.

One anonymous Adelson associate told Fox Business that Adelson had told him “Trump doesn’t listen to anyone—not even his family or Steve Bannon.” That associated added that Adelson told him he liked the Republican nominee “less and less.”
posted by palindromic at 8:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Because this is how it's supposed to work, and how it's always worked. Just like Trump not releasing his taxes, or saying that he's going to have Hillary show-trialed if he wins, or name-calling during the debates, or acting as if it's completely normal to brag about sexually assaulting women. The further this election gets from How All Of This Is Supposed To Work, the more likely we are to forget how things are supposed to work, and the more Trump '16 enables More Skilled Fascist '20 or '24.

As it is, the thing hasn't even happened yet and it's already providing a framework for Republicans to blame Democrats for George W. Bush stealing the 2000 election, and for people to use the Bush/Gore election endgame as an excuse to question the peaceful transition of power in this country in general.


You were doing so well until the end!

The pervasiveness of the "George W. Bush stealing the 2000 election" claim among many is itself an example of the rhetoric surrounding the election getting away from How All Of This Is Supposed To Work, and has helped lay the groundwork for our current issues. (Despite Gore's best efforts; he did everything right.)
posted by Shmuel510 at 8:17 AM on October 21, 2016


Well, what if everyone else in the party leadership (Ryan, obvious anagram Rience Preibus, McConnell, Pence etc...) puts out statements conceding the election? In that case I think Trump's lack of concession just becomes a formality and makes him look like a sore loser to 75% of us. He's created his own consensus reality with a small group of people, he can fuck off into the sunset screaming about rigging, but if hardly anyone is listening, I'm not sure it really matters all that much.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:19 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


In non-concession hypotheticals, some #NeverTrump Republicans believe the most bitter-ender burn-it-all-down scenario for Trump would be to argue that House Republicans should resist certifying the joint-session count of EC votes in January. Think 1876 but worse; also imagine it as a way to split the GOP between Trumpists and Ryanists, or at least to undermine Ryan's position as Speaker.

I don't think that will happen: should the results bear out the predictions, even the more ardent Trump supporters in office will want this damn election declared over on November 9th (LA Senate runoff not included).
posted by holgate at 8:19 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


The 19th Amendment does no such thing with regard to race.

A bit of a derail, but some younger intersectional type feminists believe that, because of the Jim Crow laws that prevented African-Americans from voting in the South prior to the Civil Rights Movement, therefore the 19th Amendment de facto only applied to white women. It's often phrased this way as a dig at (white?) feminists because somehow in winning the right for women to vote, they didn't also accomplish half the Civil Rights Movement in the process.

I think there's something to that (many suffragists indeed did not give a shit about whether their non-white sisters would be able to exercise their right to vote), but it's also incredibly simplistic and ignores how basically all of history and the entire political process works.
posted by Sara C. at 8:21 AM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


You were doing so well until the end!

I think you don't understand my meaning in bringing that up. The problem is that, even now, Republicans are re-framing Bush v. Gore as being an example of either Democrats' lack of good faith, or how actually we *haven't* always expected a peaceful transfer of power up until now. This is erroneous and doesn't in any way depend on who did what in the fall/winter of 2000.
posted by Sara C. at 8:24 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy: @mateagold Trump campaign paid *$5 million* to Mercer-backed Cambridge Analytica in September, up from $250,000 in August.

chris24: The Mercers are one of Trump's biggest donors, so he's basically paying back a donor.

... with their own money?

kyrademon: HAHAHAHAHA it was to build a 'psychological profile' of Clinton for the debates.

"The GOP nominee and his team are taking a more sophisticated approach to debate preparation than previously known."
... which were totally wasted on Donald, if they actually came up with anything beyond "hey, let's make her uncomfortable with women from Bill's past and Obama's half brother who is already Trumpiteer."

Part of me thinks they actually developed some insight into how to shake Hillary, but Trump was paying attention to the TV in the room and didn't really take any of it in. But more of me thinks they just came up with some BS for $5 million of "analytical analysis," knowing Donnie wouldn't use any of it anyway, and he still signed the check.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:26 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


This was linked 4 days ago, and a thread or two ago, but is relevant to the current topic of what's going to happen so here it is again:

Trump Maps Out Plan For First 100 Days Of Not Conceding Election

[Satire, Onion]
posted by fragmede at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


In 2008 and 2012 the GOP leaders were careful to contain the racists. This let them play principled opponents in obstructing Obama and have an out with swing voters against charges that their opposition was racist. I hope that this time it will be different. Trump has painted the whole party as misogynist jerks. If they conspire to block Clinton as they did Obama, we can call it what it is and point to Trump as the proof.
posted by humanfont at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I did see a tweet that went along the lines of, "Note to millennials: debates have not always been like this."

Aren't Millenials, like, 35 by now? Or is "Millenial" just shorthand for "we must treat younger people like they are complete babies."

It's a word that describes an imaginary demographic.
posted by My Dad at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


I'm a Millennial. I'm 32. I do not feel like I have more in common ideologically with my age cohort than with other people. I also feel like I generally have more in common culturally with people a decade older than me than I do with the twenty-somethings who are supposedly part of my generation. Generational politics is bunk. People get born all the time, it doesn't happen in lockstep.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:31 AM on October 21, 2016 [46 favorites]


Now it's time to run up the score. Go forth, dear Mefites, and make the calls, knock on the doors, observe the polling stations. It's time to show the Party of Thurmond and Trump at all levels of government that their campaign has been unacceptable.

We are Stronger Together.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 8:32 AM on October 21, 2016 [26 favorites]


Yeah, there are 14 year olds watching the debates right now who will be voting for the President in 2020. 20 and 30 somethings are long in the tooth for lessons in election culture.
posted by zutalors! at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, the candidates/parties pick their own electors. Bill is one of Clinton's NY electors, and DJT Jr. is one of Trump'a NY electors. There's (almost) no reason electors would ever want to flip.

In one of the previous threads someone posted a link to a set of profiles of the chosen electors this year, and one of them, from Washington, has already said he's thinking about becoming a faithless elector and a few others are pretty iffy types who aver they'll be faithful, but hate the candidate that's been chosen. If one goes awol, who knows what'll happen with some of these other nuts.

Sorry, I couldn't find the link to the article itself because I can't remember which publication it was from. Maybe someone else remembers?
posted by gusottertrout at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2016


I'd bet money that the Clinton campaign office does occasionally stop work to whoop it up over the news of Trump's latest idiocy in a very similar fashion.

I'm not sure they do: at this stage, they get their pleasure from being able to say "let's work extra late on a new video or Twitter response strategy. Order more pizza."

One thing they have done is shown their work. The campaign app features the campaign HQ dog. The podcast isn't insider gossip but it's about the ways that campaigns are made of people. It's a (sanitised) version of The War Room in real-time. That openness is partly strategic, but it's also engaging. As Obama said when thanking his HQ staff in 2012, there's nothing comparable to working full-time on a presidential campaign.
posted by holgate at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


If their research led them to think bringing Paula Jones et al to the debate audience would rattle Clinton, their research couldn't possibly have been any good. Clinton has been responding to questions about Bill's sex scandals for over 20 years now and certainly has her reaction to that down pat. Any "how to ruffle Hillary" research would have shown that as the exactly wrong tactic.

These debates were like Al Gore lucking out and getting to go up against Nixon, or even Bush I, rather than Dubya.
posted by Sara C. at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Aren't Millenials, like, 35 by now? Or is "Millenial" just shorthand for "we must treat younger people like they are complete babies."

Millennial is basically defined as being born between 1984 and 2002ish. The oldest of these people are now about 32.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:34 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Despite Gore's best efforts; he did everything right.

Hindsight is 20/20, but Gore and his lawyers went with the wrong strategy in the post-election legal battle allowing Bush's legal team to successfully prosecute an equal protection claim before SCOTUS. Gore's team should have asked for a complete statewide recount from day one, instead of the limited recount they requested and received.
posted by longdaysjourney at 8:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yeah, I'm 31 and have never really understood which tag supposedly applies to me: I'm either a really old Millennial or a really young Gen-Xer. Which is to say, labels in this generational context are either too broad or too granular, and either option is useless.
posted by lydhre at 8:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


My Dad: "Or is "Millenial" just shorthand for "we must treat younger people like they are complete babies.""

It's also a way to attribute larger systemic problems to individual character faults. Millennials aren't under-employed losers moving back into their parents' basement because the 2009 financial crisis destroyed the economy and governments responded with austerity isntead of stimulus. No, it's because of all their damn selfies and emojis and snapchats and what not.
posted by mhum at 8:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


The trade thing is the best hammer to go after Clinton with - and not NAFTA ffs but TPP. If Trump had any sense or savvy at all he would have just tried to get her on that over and over again.

But he gets distracted with his stupid sex agenda.
posted by zutalors! at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


One anonymous Adelson associate told Fox Business that Adelson had told him “Trump doesn’t listen to anyone—not even his family or Steve Bannon.”
No shit?

But more of me thinks they just came up with some BS for $5 million of "analytical analysis," knowing Donnie wouldn't use any of it anyway, and he still signed the check.

Judging from the Politico piece, it sounds like the Mercers sold Donnie millions of dollars worth of "neurolinguistic programming." It's grift all the way down. Bigly.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'm not sure they do: at this stage, they get their pleasure from being able to say "let's work extra late on a new video or Twitter response strategy. Order more pizza."

I have a feeling it's more like "Hey, remember that thing we put together in April in case Trump said--"
"Dumb Thing #342?"
"Yeah, he said it in Boise."
"I'll call it up. Find me three seconds of him saying it to plug in."
posted by Etrigan at 8:39 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'd suggest, for this context, thinking less about millennials as an age range and more about being a group with a different relationship with media and elections from those who came before. (In general of course, not universally.) For me, its that relationship, not the age range, that's important and which will continue to affect elections going forward in ways that make memories of older elections less relevant than they might have been otherwise.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:40 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


On the 19th Amendment thing, although the "white women" formulation has some substantial truth to it, I'd just like to point out that there were many Black suffragists, and many politically active Black women in the North after suffrage was obtained. That history should not be erased.

(This is not meant to in any way minimize the pervasive racism of the women's suffrage movement, or the incompleteness of the 1919 victory.)
posted by shenderson at 8:41 AM on October 21, 2016 [24 favorites]


gusottertrout, that makes sense. I guess to me, being at least 34 in 2016 is a better cut off point for Gen-X v. Millennial, because for that group of us born between 1979-1982, the giant mess of 2000 was our first Presidential election.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:43 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


The other problem with the millennial tag is they keep forgetting the older set and applying it to a younger and younger set. Millennial used to mean those who were coming of age around the millennium so it would be people born in 1980/1981/1982. But now it's being associated with people 5-10 years younger.

It's a bit different if you remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, the Clinton presidency and how it differed from the Dubya one that followed than if you were an infant/child for most of those cultural touchstones that are supposed to define the generation.
posted by asteria at 8:43 AM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


The trade thing is the best hammer to go after Clinton with - and not NAFTA ffs but TPP. If Trump had any sense or savvy at all he would have just tried to get her on that over and over again.

Don't know about that, I can't see the electorate being all that interested in parsing the details of trade agreements, allowing a lot of leeway for both sides to claim what they want. It'd maybe move people on the margins, but not sure Trump was the guy who could get a lot those who did care about it to him with all his other problems. I mean, sure, a more disciplined and thoughtful Republican might have been able to get some leverage, but then that person wouldn't have needed it as much since they could attack from all sorts of other vectors without Trump's baggage.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:47 AM on October 21, 2016


Terry Tate office line backer visits Trump and Billy Bush at the bus
posted by humanfont at 8:48 AM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


Sure, I don't mean that people are interested in the details of TPP - they certainly are not. But hitting her on trade genuinely throws her off in a way the sex stuff does not.
posted by zutalors! at 8:48 AM on October 21, 2016


because of the Jim Crow laws that prevented African-Americans from voting in the South prior to the Civil Rights Movement, therefore the 19th Amendment de facto only applied to white women.

Yeah that's the meaning I took from it. As a wee lad I was stunned to learn women hadn't always had the right to vote. Upon learning that, my imperfect worldview plugged in the "early 1900's" as when women began to vote. Only later - much later, I'm not bright - did it gain some nuance regarding women and race.

It's often phrased this way as a dig at (white?) feminists

Really? Weird. I didn't mean it that way, nor did the original commenter I picked it up from (I assume, perhaps it was some kind of 87-dimensional chess move, but I doubt it).
posted by petebest at 8:50 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


T.D. Strange: Democracy is serious. It's not entertainment. Shit like this is how we got Trump in the first place.

Politicians are people, and treating them as anything but flawed is where we fail. You can own your flaws and laugh at them, or attack anyone who calls you on your shortcomings. And you're all the stronger if you invite others to laugh at you, with the understanding that you can then make jokes at their expense in return. (It's a roast, that's how it works.) Laughter can bring people together.

Also, people need to laugh about their work, even if it's gallows humor, because sometimes that's the only thing that keeps you from going crazy.

Building up walls against The Other, treating everything they say as High Crimes Against Your Party is how we get Trump in the first place.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:52 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


(warning: BSG spoilers)

WTF dude that was like the biggest spoiler of all right there


If anyone is to blame for spoiling the ending of BSG, it's the show's writers.
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [34 favorites]


I am aware of the history alluded to in the second paragraph of my previous comment but what I was trying to emphasize was that it was the 14th Amendment that explicitly excluded black women, along with all other women, from its scope, not the 19th. The 19th did not do so even implicitly -- other legal and extralegal atrocities did. You can lay the sexism of various civil rights movements and the racism of various women's movements at the feet of many laws, institutions and people, white men certainly featuring among them, but one particular text that has no flaw in it is the 19th Amendment.

I am sorry if this is what metafilter terms a "derail" but this is how factoids are born ("I learned on metafilter that...") and I am very invested in stifling this one. There is enough racism in American history, including progressive American history, that we should not treat it so cavalierly.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


gusottertrout, can you describe what you see as the main difference between the "traditional" and "millenial" styles of media consumption? I think you might have something there, maybe in the sense that younger people are statistically more likely to get their news online or to follow the meta-narrative of current events rather than reacting directly to the events themselves as portrayed in the media. I think it's possible that younger people tend to assume a much larger role for the news media in terms of shaping the dialogue around current events, and to attach relatively more importance to the way that wvents are portrayed (or not, as the case may be) than to the events themselves. They may see the narrative of the news as being at least important as the news itself, and see themselves as active participants in how that narrative is built and negotiated and litigated, participants in determining what the collective memory of a given event is going to be.

I may be off base there, and I know the viewpoint I just described is hardly limited to younger folks—everyone in this thread is involved in shaping the narrative of this election, and most of us seem to acknowledge that pretty openly—but I definitely see a difference between the way my friends and I interpret the news and the way my parents and their friends seem to interpret it. We all see the news as the first draft of history, but the people I know—unless they just cynically avoid the news media entirely—seem to see that draft as being intentionally, disingenuously biased and in need of a lot of workshopping and revision before we can agree to commit it to memory. Not so much for my parents, who are very intelligent and thoughtful people but who nevertheless have a lot more respect for the news media than my peers do.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Re the Gen X vs. Millennial thing, I'm 35 and definitely would slot myself as a Millennial and not Gen X. Most descriptions I've seen go from 1980-2000, or thereabouts, and to be honest, I just never saw myself as Gen X. My partner is a few years older, is absolutely smack in the middle of Gen X, and while obviously we have a lot in common, we have relatively few shared cultural references. And when we do, it's because I was precocious when it came to taste in music (I loved riot grrrl, grunge, and West Coast rap as a tween), while he was into animation and watched a lot of the cartoons I grew up on as a stoner college kid.

I do feel, however, like there is a generation divide -- at least in Presidential electoral politics -- between people who remember 2000 and people who don't. Anecdotally I know a lot more younger people who are acting out the same stupid shit that won Dubya the election, stuff that those of us in the 1980-84 cohort find terrifying. I definitely hear a lot of "Both Parties Are The Same" from younger voters, for example.
posted by Sara C. at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


hitting her on trade genuinely throws her off in a way the sex stuff does not.

Ah, yeah, there are some areas Clinton does show more hesitancy and that is one, I agree. As strange as it may seem, given so many of the claims against her, I think she has some difficulty at times due to her being reflexively honest in a way. She just isn't great at killing something quickly, she always wants to have an answer that goes towards an explanation even when that doesn't benefit her. It's those things, ironically, that make her seem less honest since she tries to nuance her way through complexity without managing to sound quite forthright. It reads badly even though it certainly could be seen as a positive depending on how one looks at any given subject she addresses in that manner.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:55 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]




The trade thing is the best hammer to go after Clinton with - and not NAFTA ffs but TPP. If Trump had any sense or savvy at all he would have just tried to get her on that over and over again.

But he gets distracted with his stupid sex agenda.
Trump: Now she wants to sign Trans-Pacific Partnership. And she wants it. She lied when she said she didn't call it the gold standard in one of the debates. She totally lied. She did call it the gold standard. And they actually fact checked and they said I was right.
...
Clinton: Well, first, let me say, number one, when I saw the final agreement for TPP, I said I was against it. It didn't meet my test. I've had the same test. Does it create jobs, raise incomes and further our national security. I’m against it now. I’ll be against it after the election. I'll be against it when I'm president. There's only one of us on this stage who has actually shipped jobs to Mexico because that's Donald. He has shipped jobs to 12 countries including Mexico. But he mentioned China. And, you know, one of the biggest problems we have with China is the illegal dumping of steel and aluminum into our markets. I have fought against that as a senator. I have stood up against it as Secretary of State. Donald has bought Chinese steel and aluminum. In fact, the Trump Hotel right here in Las Vegas was made with Chinese steel. So he goes around with crocodile tears about how terrible it is. But he has given jobs to Chinese steelworkers, not American steelworkers. That's the kind of approach that is just not going to work. We're going to pull the country together. We're going to have trade agreements that we enforce. That's why I'm going to have a trade prosecutor for the first time in history. And we're going to enforce those agreements and we're going to look for businesses to help us by buying American products.

Trump: Can I ask a simple question? She's been doing this for 30 years. Why the hell didn't you do it over the last 15, 20 years? You were very much involved.

Clinton: I voted --

Trump: Excuse me. My turn. You were very much involved in every aspect of this country. Very much. And you do have experience. I say the one thing you have over me is experience. But it is bad experience because what you've done has turned out badly. For 30 years you've been in a position to help. And if you say that I used steel or I used something else, I- make it impossible for me to do. I wouldn't mind. The problem is, you talk but you don't get anything done, Hillary. You don't. Just like when you ran the State Department, $6 billion was missing. How do you miss $6 billion? You ran the State department. $6 billion was either stolen, they don't know. It’s gone. $6 billion. If you become president, this country is going to be in some mess. Believe me.
Trump is honestly one of the worst debaters I've ever seen. I guess that style works with more than one person on the stage, but he just cannot stick to the script. You're right, he should be hammering her on trade. And Clinton knows it. So she gives two sentences defending her position then immediately pivots to attacking Donald. He is so easily distracted.
posted by one_bean at 8:58 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


This election is going to be an amazing experiment in just how much GOTV actually matters. I really hope political scientists are out in the field right now taking copious measurements.

And that the Democrats apply the lessons learned in off-year elections. I keep reading that Democratic turnout is lower in non-Presidential years, but that isn't a law of nature; it's a problem that can be fixed.
posted by Gelatin at 8:58 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


Anticipation, younger groups of people are more likely to get their news crowdsourced/via social media. This leads to being exposed to a wider range of topics and opinions.

I can only cite myself as an example. I am 32, and for most of my 20's I didn't think 1) sexism was a thing. 2) that it was ok to ridicule people based on differences.

Then I joined the masses on tumblr, metafilter, and twitter. I learned a great deal, and still continue to learn, from the people I follow and interact with.

I'm not the only one.
posted by INFJ at 8:59 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


They've shown their work...

Another example: Mina Markham's fantastic article about her UI pattern library for the Clinton campaign. It's called Pantsuit.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:03 AM on October 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


My themesong of the day: RÜFÜS (DU SOL) - Brighter
Can you feel the sunshine?
(You make it brighter)
Make it brighter, brighter, make it brighter for me
One last sun comes shining on me
Make it brighter, brighter!
Not all the lyrics are quite as fitting for this uplifting moment, but I'll take it. (From the album Bloom, official full album stream on YouTube)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:05 AM on October 21, 2016




For anyone that missed it or doesn't have cable, Al Franken (the second funniest US Senator from Minnesota) was on Rachel Maddow last night providing color commentary on the Al Smith Dinner.

Two segments:
Trump
Clinton
posted by nathan_teske at 9:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


It's also a way to attribute larger systemic problems to individual character faults. Millennials aren't under-employed losers moving back into their parents' basement because the 2009 financial crisis destroyed the economy and governments responded with austerity isntead of stimulus. No, it's because of all their damn selfies and emojis and snapchats and what not.

The recession in the 90's was fucking loooooooong. My parents nearly lost their house when interest rates went up in the 80's...
posted by My Dad at 9:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


The first day of in-person early voting in North Carolina:
Dem 52.7, Rep 24.3
White 67, Black 27.8
Female 55.1, Male 43.5
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


“The local offices pick the people they want to be first in line, right,” she says, “And the GOP office didn’t vet this guy very well because he had an absentee ballot.”

Absentees, I learned, must vote with their absentee ballots.

To recap:

- A Trump voter
- Hand picked by the local campaign office
- Unknowingly attempted to commit voter fraud
Actually, an Ohio resident who requests an absentee ballot may vote at their polling station on election day or early at their County's BOE, however they can only vote a provisional ballot. That provisional ballot will be counted if the voter's identity is validated AND his/her absentee ballot is never received.

It's only voter fraud if he already mailed his absentee ballot back in or planned to do so later. Poor optics for the local GOP for sure, but not necessarily an attempt to commit voter fraud.
posted by zakur at 9:14 AM on October 21, 2016


Even if I weren't with the campaign already, I'd totally be in the bag for Winnie.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:15 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


From way upthread: If he releases them and the attacks are true, he loses his biggest bragging points. But, he's getting attacked on those anyway, so not releasing them isn't buying him a single thing.

Not releasing them is avoiding crowdsourcing the audit. The IRS only has so much time to put in on Trump's 1200+ page convoluted return; the internet would happily dive into that and find every instance where he checked Box A but claimed credit for Box B in a public speech. They would follow up on every donation claimed, contacting the recipients (filing FOIA claims if that helped) to confirm whether they got the money claimed - and whether it came from DJT or the Foundation. They'd track down all the business expenses and depreciations claimed, and find out if those reductions were declared to other stakeholders. And they would, of course, establish how much of his money comes from non-US sources, and whether there's any indication at all that he is a billionaire, as opposed to "properties worth more than a billion dollars have my name on them."

We're all pretty sure there's some shady details in the returns; he's better off not releasing them if that'd confirm a lot more than reasonable speculation leads us to believe.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:15 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


> The pervasiveness of the "George W. Bush stealing the 2000 election" claim among many

George W. Bush didn't steal the 2000 election, it was handed to him by the Supreme Court, but it sure as hell wasn't won fair and square.
posted by languagehat at 9:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [37 favorites]


A few thoughts.

First: I'm 36, so I guess that makes me a cusper, Oregon Trailer, whatever. Too young to be Gen X, and if I'm a Millennial I'm the oldest of the bunch. I've taken most demographic targeting with a grain of salt, which is made easier by not identifying with any real generational cohort. But that's another discussion for another time or FPP I guess.

Second and more importantly: I voted yesterday. Even with early voting, going at lunch meant there was a 20-30 minute wait in line before I was called up. Even though I'm sure I was in line with at least a few (potentially more than a few) Trump voters, the overall atmosphere at the polling site (my local public library) was a friendly one. We were all there to exercise a right and perform a civic duty. Despite all the ugliness of the long campaign, the act of voting itself still felt sacred.

Later I took a selfie with my "I Voted" sticker. Okay, fine, Snake People, you can claim me if you want.

About this long campaign: when the madness started (perhaps marked by a certain orange guy on a certain down escalator and wearing a certain red ballcap), my daughter hadn't yet been conceived. Now she's sitting up on her own and starting to eat solid food. It's been a long slog through the muck.
posted by pianoblack at 9:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [24 favorites]


Think 1876 but worse . . .

I vaguely remembered the Compromise of 1877 as a header in a section of an eighth-grade history textbook that we didn't go over. It's amazing that I just discovered that, since it ended Reconstruction and therefore abandoned African-Americans in the South, it is perhaps the seed of a great deal of our troubles today.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:17 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


(Also, it's so sad that I'm worried about Winnie. I wouldn't publicize my dog if I was a campaign worker, not even if she was a big old chunk of pitbull instead of a little floof hound. Trump's people - his fans, I mean, probably not his employees - are entirely capable of doing something unspeakable to that dog.)
posted by Countess Elena at 9:21 AM on October 21, 2016


My friends never understood my ranking of Hayes among the worst American presidents. They considered him only a mediocre president.
posted by palindromic at 9:21 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Winnie is part Schipperke! The first dog I ever had, who came to my family a month before I was born was a Schipperke named Kippy Tenoo (and Tyler too).
posted by Sophie1 at 9:21 AM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]



...Sam Popkin, a political scientist at the University of California, San Diego, and the author of the forthcoming “The Republican Crackup,” told me that the most productive outcome of a Trump rout would be to push the Party away from building walls and banning Muslims, toward more broadly acceptable ambitions. “If he loses, he might—and I say might—break the illogical, impossible dream of deportation, the way that Goldwater ended the opposition to integration. Goldwater changed it from ‘now versus never’ to ‘rapid versus slow.’ ” Moreover, by winning the nomination on a platform of preserving Medicare and Social Security, Trump may have changed the parameters of his party. “For a long time, they’ve been saying you can’t protect Medicare and win. From now on, no Republican Presidential candidate can say, ‘We have to privatize entitlements.’ They will even have to get rid of the fantasy of overturning the Affordable Care Act.”
The Art of the Rout: What a Trump Loss Does to the G.O.P.
posted by y2karl at 9:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


He just didn't have the stamina to pivot and play an actual strategy to actively bait Clinton.

Is she actually even baitable though? She's a hardened politician and she went into these debates obviously intending to take the high road and be the calm, unflappable adult in the room. What would it honestly have taken to get under her skin? She seems like a person who only displays her emotions when she thinks it's to her advantage to do so, and I can see why—it's an important survival tactic for her, both personally and politically. Maybe I'm just projecting, but I think she's one of those people whose emotions are mostly internal and who it is very difficult to get a rise out of. Even if she's outraged, she won't let you see it unless she thinks it'll get her somewhere.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


Yes, INFJ is on to part of what I'm thinking. Not only are they getting their news "crowdsourced" but they are more involved in creating it themselves or interacting directly with others involved in the events as they happen. Elections via Tweets is just radically different than anything we've had before in terms of how messages are being disseminated, who is able to share or oppose messages and gain an audience, and what the content of each message contains and how we understand it.

There is also, I think, as a part of that simply a different way of understanding the world and how we all connect through it. I obviously can't say racism doesn't exist for younger people, it does, but for a great many of them, more than previous generations I believe, race doesn't fit into the kind of simplistic packaging that the GOP has relied on for so long. Virtual interaction breaks barriers in ways that are akin to real interaction, and through these huge group connections many younger people are "meeting" a far more diverse part of the population than those older than them would ever have had a chance to do. That very interaction kills many of the stereotypes or caricatures put up by ignorance and malice. It makes talk centered on old models seem false because so much of it doesn't reflect what they are dealing with everyday. but these archaic perspectives dragged along from memories of how things used to be and arguments unsettled from times past.

It goes beyond race too I think, the amount of type of information younger people deal with has a hard time being matched to traditional models. We saw some of that with this election in how much of it revolved around almost constant head to head or Tweet to Tweet combat between the candidates, with non-stop news and non-stop comedy coverage adding to the sense of high stakes zinger wars with armies of followers taking up the battle from the candidates themselves after each round. This isn't dinner table conversation, or chatting with the guys at the bar any more, it's nationwide, and even beyond, constant back and forth, with winners and losers each round. Yet almost invisible to many older voters who haven't kept up with all the technology or spend their time in different online locations.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Last night's menu
posted by vbfg at 9:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


What would it honestly have taken to get under her skin?

Making her think you are trying to get her to channel her husband's opinion.
posted by zutalors! at 9:25 AM on October 21, 2016


by winning the nomination on a platform of preserving Medicare and Social Security
Is that what got him the nomination? Huh.
posted by clorox at 9:27 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


The problem is that, even now, Republicans are re-framing Bush v. Gore as being an example of either Democrats' lack of good faith, or how actually we *haven't* always expected a peaceful transfer of power up until now. This is erroneous and doesn't in any way depend on who did what in the fall/winter of 2000.

Republican re-framing of the 2000 election, which Gore arguably did have stolen from him but which he conceded anyway, is not erroneous; it's dishonest.
posted by Gelatin at 9:29 AM on October 21, 2016 [27 favorites]


chris24: The Mercers are one of Trump's biggest donors, so he's basically paying back a donor.

... with their own money?


They've donated $2 million and got paid $5 million. Nice work if you can get it.
posted by chris24 at 9:31 AM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


Even if I weren't with the campaign already, I'd totally be in the bag for Winnie.

But of course. Petting her is worth 50 points!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:34 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump's half an hour late. (I think the 737 only left LGA -- third-world LGA! -- at 11am.) Local press got a crowd estimate of 2,200 in a 3,500-capacity event hall, after the previous rally in town got 7,000 in a 9,500-capacity arena.

As with many of his rallies, there's dead space between the opening speakers and the main event with the interminable six-song oldies station campaign loop.
posted by holgate at 9:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Mercers? But their legacy is secure!
posted by drezdn at 9:43 AM on October 21, 2016 [14 favorites]




The 2000 election shitshow is where I decided that we aren't really living in a democracy, and that while voting is still important, the oligarchs will always make sure that the options we're given fall within the range of scenarios that are acceptable to them. If something unacceptable is about to happen, the "rules" will be ignored. The will of the people is worth whatever the powerful are willing to allow at any given moment, no more and no less.

I was 17 at the time. I'm 32 now. I still absolutely believe that. It was obvious then, and nothing I've seen since has contradicted that view. I'll still be voting, but I know there's a huge difference between how our system of government appears to work and how it actually does work, and the real version is not particularly free or democratic at all.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


Here's a picture via Twitter of the line to early vote in North Carolina today. Major respect.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:50 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


"we've been in the Philippines for probably forever and now China and Russia are probably going to take it" something Donald Trump actually said
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:51 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Low-energy. Rambling. Word salad very wilted. Sad!
posted by holgate at 9:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just got the Melania joke!
posted by Room 641-A at 9:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


Even if she's outraged, she won't let you see it unless she thinks it'll get her somewhere.

And while I respect the shit out of her ability to do that, it scares the bejesus out of me sometimes.

I tend to think of President Obama as a chess player, but Secretary Clinton is like a prize fighter with an iron jaw. You can't take her down, you can't wear her out, and eventually she's going to land that haymaker.
posted by Mooski at 9:55 AM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


If he were a Machiavellian supervillain, Trump's refusal to concede would be part of a strategy to drive astroturfed resistance and a movement for congressional shenanigans to impeach her. Or perhaps a Nixon-like comeback in a future election.

But given his performance in the last few days, I think Trump just doesn't want to admit the possibility of being a loser.

Maybe not in the sense of a tantrum, meltdown, or otherwise buffoonish reaction, but if as already mentione he hammered her on trade and could follow an actual line of thought for more than three sentences it would have forced her to wade through much more muddy waters. That would've at least given him a lot more to work with attack ads later, anyway.

The Middle East is one of those areas where his Hollywood ideas about diplomacy could actually play to a lot of the audience. It's a no-win situation for just about anyone with a brain due to the complexity and lack of easy answers.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:55 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


The NYTimes has a pretty neat graphical breakdown on how much and where the candidates are spending on television ads.
posted by peeedro at 9:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


CNN: During the first debate, one third of pro-Trump tweets and one quarter of pro-Clinton tweets were generated by bots.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:58 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


CBrachyrhynchos: The Middle East is one of those areas where his Hollywood ideas about diplomacy could actually play to a lot of the audience. It's a no-win situation for just about anyone with a brain due to the complexity and lack of easy answers.

Conversation with a Trump supporter the other day: "His solution in the Middle East is just common sense."

Ah, yes, the simple, straightforward, common-sense solution to a civil war in one of the Middle East's most diverse nations, a civil war in which both superpowers and a number of regional powers are entangled. Even St. Reagan didn't know how to deal with a situation like that.
posted by clawsoon at 10:04 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I should add that I think Republican foreign policy is usually ridiculous, but their ideas of good vs. evil in global politics are an easy sell.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:05 AM on October 21, 2016


Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The:

I encourage you to consider that the view you express may in fact be comforting: That certain elite groups control the outcome of politics and everything else; that they serve their own interests; that they keep the masses blind and ignorant to their (the elites') machinations.

With all due respect, that strikes me as a slightly evolved version of a child's view of the world: Mommy and Daddy are in control still. We've moved on from believing that Mommy and Daddy manipulate the world for the good, but at least we still feel they are in control.

What if there is no one in control? What if there is only multiple competing interests at every level, and only turbulence as a result? Remember that turbulence still has features, and still seems to show some overall flow. But no one knows, nor can predict, nor can control, the overall outcome.

Remember that John Maynard Keynes and lots of other very smart and cynical people assured the world that World War I would never happen or, once its started, would never go on for very long. Why? Because the moneyed interests would never allow it. It would wipe out too much of their wealth. In fact, the moneyed interests never had any real say, and WWI wiped out their wealth.

I think Donald Trump is in no one's interests. The GOP didn't want him, the moneyed interests didn't want him. But he's a big toxic self-interested nightmare who ignited some fuel that was lying around. Where is the control of the elites in that?
posted by argybarg at 10:05 AM on October 21, 2016 [82 favorites]


suburbanbeatnik: This Nasty Woman Inktober sketch is EVERYTHING.

That's from MeFite TangoCharlie (Tony Cliff), and he has made the design into shirts and posters:

T-shirts on light shirts
T-shirts on dark shirts
Prints: fancy colour version
Prints: OG ink version

He said he's donating any and all profit he makes from these sales to Planned Parenthood.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:08 AM on October 21, 2016 [46 favorites]


The NYTimes has a pretty neat graphical breakdown on how much and where the candidates are spending on television ads.

Interesting, thanks. Though I find myself rolling my eyes at the phrasing of the article's headline -- "Trump Has Spent a Fraction of What Clinton Has on Ads" -- "a fraction" means so little as any number can be represented as a fraction of another number -- and given that the more impactful takeaway to me was just how little both candidates spent on ads this year compared to the '08 and '12 elections. (As the article's first line acknowledges.)

The cited experts seem to think this is partially because of both candidates' already-high name recognition, but for Clinton, I wonder how much of that was an intentional pivot of emphasis from TV to social media/online messaging. (And for Trump, how much of it was money troubles...)
posted by alleycat01 at 10:10 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, Anticipation, I was about 10 years older for that election, and from what I saw, it was not oligarchs who made that shitshow happen. It was Karl Rove hiring thugs to threaten vote-counters, paired with enough cynical old conservative men on the SCOTUS. I wanted Al Gore to fight harder than he did, and if he'd been able to see a few years into the future, I'm sure he would have. But when one party wants to fight clean and the other party wants to fight dirty, you've got to win decisively. Thank god it looks like that will happen this year.

Also, if you get into the actual GOTV effort, you'll see that there's a lot more to voting than oligarchy.
posted by rikschell at 10:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


One unintended benefit of Trump's concession bullshit is that it's forcing the GOP, particularly on the state level, to admit that voter fraud is NOT A THING.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:12 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


CNN: During the first debate, one third of pro-Trump tweets and one quarter of pro-Clinton tweets were generated by bots.

Ha.
Ha.
Ha.
A very illogical endeavor.
Am I rite, fellow human members of the website MetaFilter?
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:15 AM on October 21, 2016 [42 favorites]


Here's a picture via Twitter of the line to early vote in North Carolina today. Major respect.

I'm actually saddened by this photo, as much as I'm happy that people are exercising their right to vote. It should not be this hard to cast one's vote in this country in 2016! How many citizens are going to be prevented from participating in this election because they don't have the time to stand in a ridiculously long line. It's fucking criminal.
posted by longdaysjourney at 10:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [40 favorites]


the more impactful takeaway to me was just how little both candidates spent on ads this year compared to the '08 and '12 elections. (As the article's first line acknowledges.)

The cited experts seem to think this is partially because of both candidates' already-high name recognition, but for Clinton, I wonder how much of that was an intentional pivot of emphasis from TV to social media/online messaging. (And for Trump, how much of it was money troubles...)


Another factor: Donald generates free press for himself, and for Hillary.

Everyone talks about Donald's billions in free publicity, and how each candidate does better when the media is talking about their opponent, but no one seems to have put that together in how much free publicity Hillary has gotten out of this. Additionally, Donald and Mike give HRC's campaign plenty of free video and audio material for their ads.

Also, it would be interesting to see how a shift to "new media" plays into this: it's free to tweet and through up videos on YouTube and Facebook, where videos can quickly go viral, again for no (distribution/ promotion) cost to the candidates. Why spend a ton of money on TV ads when more people see videos online?
posted by filthy light thief at 10:17 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I dunno argybarg. Maybe I'm just having a down day and I'm in everything-is-bullshit mode, but I look at the fact that 60% of the country holds less than 5% of the wealth, I look at Citizens United, I look at the fact that 30,000 people have to share the one public dock on my favorite local river while about 12 people own private estates with private docks that take up 98% of the frontage of that same river and don't even live in those houses except maybe in the summertime, I look at my experiences in New Orleans and the poverty I saw there and the way that the governor just absolutely gutted the public university system in Louisiana during my time living there, and frankly it's all I can do not to despair.

I don't see any of that stuff changing; money is power, power protects itself, and a tiny number of people have almost all of both. Look at the paltry fine levied against Wells Fargo the other day. They fuck up the financial lives of untold thousands of normal people, and even after being punished they still come out ahead.

The entire global order is just completely fucked and anything we do just feels like an eddy against the current. It's important to keep struggling, but I'm damned if I think that the kind of fundamental change it would take to create a truly just and egalitarian society is even on the table. We have our choice of plutocratic dystopias, and that's it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:18 AM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


I know this is a small thing but I have to defend the honor of innocent aircraft that can't defend themselves what with their being inanimate objects...

Trump's half an hour late. (I think the 737 only left LGA

Trump's (usual?) campaign plane is a 757. If memory serves, a pretty old one. Pence flies in a 737 still mostly decked out in Eastern Airlines livery, presumably because Trump wouldn't pay for a full repaint.

Clinton's is a more-or-less-modern-appearing 737, or at least modern enough to have winglets.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:19 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


CNN: During the first debate, one third of pro-Trump tweets and one quarter of pro-Clinton tweets were generated by bots.

Ha.
Ha.
Ha.
A very illogical endeavor.
Am I rite, fellow human members of the website MetaFilter?


Affirmative.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:20 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Divisions within the oligarchy provide opportunity for working class people, but do not disprove the existence of the oligarchy.
posted by Frowner at 10:20 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Reading reports on twitter that Trump is going after Michelle Obama. Anyone have details?
posted by kyrademon at 10:20 AM on October 21, 2016


Here's a picture via Twitter of the line to early vote in North Carolina today. Major respect.

Jim Crow is alive and well.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:21 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


I know this is a small thing but I have to defend the honor of innocent aircraft that can't defend themselves what with their being inanimate objects...

posted by ROU_Xenophobe


Vessels gotta stick together.
posted by condour75 at 10:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


I tend to think of President Obama as a chess player, but Secretary Clinton is like a prize fighter with an iron jaw. You can't take her down, you can't wear her out, and eventually she's going to land that haymaker.

She can't be bargained with. She can't be reasoned with. She doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And she absolutely will not stop...ever, until she is president.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [35 favorites]


Reading reports on twitter that Trump is going after Michelle Obama.

A winning strategy if there ever was one. Good luck with that, fucker.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:26 AM on October 21, 2016 [63 favorites]


I'm surprised ROU_Xenophobe and GSV Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The don't agree more often, but Ships are notoriously contrarian.
posted by stolyarova at 10:27 AM on October 21, 2016 [19 favorites]


CNN: During the first debate, one third of pro-Trump tweets and one quarter of pro-Clinton tweets were generated by bots.

The campaigns aren't bringing their best, they're bringing Peñabots. And some, I assume, are good bots.
posted by XMLicious at 10:30 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


A winning strategy if there ever was one. Good luck with that, fucker.

More like a whining strategy.
posted by night_train at 10:30 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


What did he do?!?! I cannot find it on twitter. I am so exhausted from Trump Outrage but honestly I could dig deep and pull out some vintage outrage if he's finally gone stupid enough to go after Michelle.
posted by like_neon at 10:31 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


He keeps pulling out minor stuff the Obamas have said about the Clintons, during 2008 campaigning and before Secretary of State and the clearly deep friendship that they now have. Even though Trump is on record just loving on the Clintons for years and years.
posted by zutalors! at 10:33 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reading reports on twitter that Trump is going after Michelle Obama. Anyone have details?

The only news coverage I'm seeing is the opposite direction: Michelle Obama to Trump: 'You do not keep American democracy in suspense' (Politico, 10/20/16)
First lady Michelle Obama came out swinging against Donald Trump on Thursday after the Republican presidential nominee said during the final debate that he will keep the country “in suspense” over whether he will contest the election results if he loses to Hillary Clinton on Nov. 8.

“When a presidential candidate threatens to ignore our voices and reject the outcome of this election, he is threatening the very idea of America itself,” Obama said during a campaign rally in Phoenix. “We cannot stand for that. You do not keep American democracy in suspense.”
Here's the full 30 minute speech from the FLOTUS in Phoenix, AZ yesterday

So I can see Donald going after Michelle, in rallies or on Twitter, especially after he threw out the nonsense about the non-existent Michelle Obama ad against Hillary Clinton in the debate on Oct. 9. Four days later, White House warns Trump not to attack Michelle Obama (Politico, 10/13/16)
“I can’t think of a bolder way for Donald Trump to lose even more standing than he already has than by engaging the first lady of the United States,” principal deputy White House press secretary Eric Schultz told reporters during a gaggle aboard Air Force One.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:34 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]




But given his performance in the last few days, I think Trump just doesn't want to admit the possibility of being a loser.

The Majority Report podcast, which zutalors! mentioned upthread, discussed the possibility that Trump refuses to give a straight answer to piss off Paul Ryan. He's stringing Ryan along by tiptoeing up to the red line of refusing to accept the result of the election but not technically crossing it.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 10:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


The entire global order is just completely fucked and anything we do just feels like an eddy against the current. It's important to keep struggling, but I'm damned if I think that the kind of fundamental change it would take to create a truly just and egalitarian society is even on the table. We have a choice of plutocratic dystopias, and that's it.

While I hate to say it, and I say it without irony, that is precisely what they want you to think.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [23 favorites]


Good News Everyone!

FEC Extends Election By 7 Months To Give Nation Chance To Better Get To Know Candidates
. . .
[fake]
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:36 AM on October 21


Well, I don't know if the cookie part of your name is accurate, but...
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:42 AM on October 21, 2016 [37 favorites]


Reading reports on twitter that Trump is going after Michelle Obama.
A winning strategy if there ever was one. Good luck with that, fucker.


Next up, Trump aims his sights at Tom Hanks and Santa Claus
posted by splen at 10:44 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


I tend to think of President Obama as a chess player, but Secretary Clinton is like a prize fighter with an iron jaw. You can't take her down, you can't wear her out, and eventually she's going to land that haymaker.

I love this, mostly because of the mental picture I'm now conjuring of Hillary as Homer Simpson playing rope-a-dope against a neverending cast of Moe's smalltime local boxers. Just give Donald his three minutes to talk, and then nudge him gently with your glove and watch as he tumbles over exhausted.
posted by Mayor West at 10:44 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]




FEC Extends Election By 7 Months To Give Nation Chance To Better Get To Know Candidates. [Fake]

Not even funny.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


A look into the inner workings of the Trump campaign, as told by the candidate himself. At his rally, he talked about turning on the TV and seeing attack ads and how false they are: "They were false. I never said it. They know I didn't say it. They have different things. I won't go into things, my people go crazy, they say don’t be particular—just—I like to deny things...but they say 'oh talk about jobs.'"

So who at the Trump campaign is telling him to shut up about details and "oh talk about jobs" instead? That's got to be the management strategy at this point, people like it when he talks about jobs, so try to get him to do that and go crazy when he gets off script.
posted by zachlipton at 10:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


He attacked both her and her husband, saying "all they want to do is campaign" and then mocked Michelle for supporting Hillary now after she said, in 2008, "If you can't run your own house than you can't run the White House."
This is just further evidence that Trump doesn't even understand how politics works. People on the same side will disagree and even say mean things about each other, but in the end they shake hands and get to work. See: HRC's appointment as Secretary of State.
posted by xyzzy at 10:48 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


Please people. Don't get complacent. Don't get cocky. Don't tempt the fates. Full court press until November 8th.
posted by Talez at 10:48 AM on October 21, 2016 [67 favorites]


Late to the game, but nobody I've seen has come up with what, for me, is the absolute best possible post-election headline (and diss on Donald):

HILLARY, YOU'RE HIRED!

wishes MeFi allowed use of [big] tag
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:51 AM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


Meanwhile, efforts to pretend the Trump campaign never happened are already underway...by Trump's lawyers in the California Trump University case. Trump seeks to bar personal conduct claims from Trump University trial:
In a court filing late on Thursday, attorneys for Trump said evidence and statements from the election campaign should be barred from trial because they could unfairly prejudice the jury. The trial is set to begin on Nov. 28.

Evidence including Trump's campaign speeches, tweets, his tax issues and controversy over his personal charity should not be considered by jurors, the filing said. All audio and video recordings publicized during the campaign should also be barred, the filing said, along with evidence about Trump's beauty pageants, casinos and corporate bankruptcies.

"Before trial begins in this case, prospective members of the jury will have the opportunity to cast their vote for president," Trump's lawyers wrote. "It is in the ballot box where they are free to judge Mr. Trump based on all this and more."
posted by zachlipton at 10:51 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hahahahahah... no take-backs, Trump. This is your life now.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [30 favorites]


Please people. Don't get complacent. Don't get cocky. Don't tempt the fates. Full court press until November 8th.

Yeah, and I just watched the GoT episode where The Mountain fights Prince Oberyn.

Go vote.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [25 favorites]


wishes MeFi allowed use of [big] tag

[bigly], Shirley.

*beep* *chrrrrrrrrr*
posted by petebest at 10:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


TPM published an article today saying the Russians offered to monitor voting in 3 states. It's from the AP, but weird. Such a strange election.
posted by annsunny at 10:55 AM on October 21, 2016


"It is in the ballot box where they are free to judge Mr. Trump based on all this and more."

Hm and yet his campaign keeps saying we should not take those exact things into account when voting.
posted by Tarumba at 10:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, and I just watched the GoT episode where The Mountain fights Prince Oberyn.

god, I wish Hillary hadn't insisted on Election By Combat back in September when the polls were close
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Please people. Don't get complacent. Don't get cocky. Don't tempt the fates. Full court press until November 8th.
Total agreement. Remember, Congressional Control is within reach, but it's not going to be easy.

I tend to think of President Obama as a chess player, but Secretary Clinton is like a prize fighter with an iron jaw.
Which is why I'm even hopeful for the 2018 mid-terms with Clinton in charge. Obama got blindsided in 2010 when facing opponents who just flipped the board and we've all suffered from that failure.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


I voted! We have vote-by-mail here in Washington, and our ballots arrived yesterday.

My husband invited our 10-year-old daughter to fill in the bubble for Hillary for President, which she gleefully did. (I offered the same to our 5-year-old son, but he was worried about being able to stay within the lines.) Today after my husband gets home from work, we're all going to walk down to our local ballot drop box location together to officially deposit our ballots, take a family selfie (ussie?), and then go eat tacos for dinner.
posted by KathrynT at 10:58 AM on October 21, 2016 [53 favorites]


srsly whoever's running HRC's twitter is jut SLAYING it this year.

Prolly Jess.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:58 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


have we ever seen jess and meredith in the same room?

think about it
posted by Tevin at 10:59 AM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


I offered the same to our 5-year-old son, but he was worried about being able to stay within the lines.

omg squee
posted by zutalors! at 11:00 AM on October 21, 2016 [26 favorites]


Chuck Todd: Donald Trump 'Lost The Al Smith Dinner’ | MSNBC

Yes, yes, the biggest night of the campaign that everybody always talks about every election cycle, really easy to opine in an informed way about the Al Smith Dinner. Let's all chatter about it on Twitter in real time.

I had never heard of the stupid thing before and that it had something to do with New York and Al Roker.
posted by My Dad at 11:04 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


[Just a PSA--a major DDoS attack has been taking a major DNS service offline all day and will cause some people to have connectivity issues with twitter, so including the text of tweets when linking would be helpful to people like me who can't reach twitter atm.]
posted by xyzzy at 11:04 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


Late to the game, but nobody I've seen has come up with what, for me, is the absolute best possible post-election headline (and diss on Donald):

HILLARY, YOU'RE HIRED!


I still think RANDOM JERK IN METRO BUFFALO PROCLAIMED GOD-EMPEROR OF KNOWN UNIVERSE would be better. TRUMP ACTUALLY COMMITS LITERAL SEPPUKU; WE MEAN "LITERAL" LITERALLY AND NOT JUST AS AN AMPLIFIER HE REALLY DID DISEMBOWEL HIMSELF AS AN APOLOGY TO THE UNIVERSE FOR EXISTING would also be okay. And yeah sure meow meow Culture contact meow.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:04 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's amazing that I just discovered [the Compromise of 1877], since it ended Reconstruction and therefore abandoned African-Americans in the South, it is perhaps the seed of a great deal of our troubles today.

One of the greatest tragedies in American history is the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. He was killed on April 14, 1865, five days after Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox and just over a month after starting his second term as president. He called for a compassionate reconciliation with the South in his second inaugural address.
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
His winning the war and emancipating slaves would've given him the clout to stand up to the Radical Republicans, who wanted to treat the South more harshly and punitively. Lincoln's successor Andrew Johnson was too weak and got steamrolled by the Radical Republicans. I believe the harsher Reconstruction and military occupation of the South underlies a lot of the divisiveness that continues today.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:06 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Yes, yes, the biggest night of the campaign that everybody always talks about every election cycle, really easy to opine in an informed way about the Al Smith Dinner. Let's all chatter about it on Twitter in real time.

Sure, but I think the headlines are more about the fact that nobody fricking LOSES a charity dinner. And yet Donny managed to pull defeat from the jaws of everybody getting along eating some dry chicken breasts.
posted by Sara C. at 11:07 AM on October 21, 2016 [30 favorites]


He was killed on April 14, 1865, five days after Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox and just over a month after starting his second term as president.
On April 14, 1865, Lincoln also signed a piece of legislation that created the Secret Service.
posted by xyzzy at 11:08 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


The first day of in-person early voting in North Carolina:
Dem 52.7, Rep 24.3
White 67, Black 27.8
Female 55.1, Male 43.5
I'm assuming those are percentage points, but out of what? Total number of first-day early voters? Or of the demographic in question?

At least NC has early voting as an option. My mother will not have that choice.
posted by inconstant at 11:08 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I would like to preface this statement with the fact that I am a big HRC supporter now, regularly donate money, and have a ton of Hillary merchandise. Also I do not give a shit about e-mails, generally.

It is extremely disappointing to see this tweet that Hillary was not involved in writing the apology statement about Nancy Reagan's funeral.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sure, but I think the headlines are more about the fact that nobody fricking LOSES a charity dinner.

indeed, this is like getting killed by the car in the Street Fighter II bonus round
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:10 AM on October 21, 2016 [35 favorites]


It's extremely disappointing that TYT, proudly biased liberals, are in the tank for Trump.
posted by Yowser at 11:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


As I mentioned a moment ago, twitter is down for some people. What is the text of the tweet with respect to Nancy Reagan?
posted by xyzzy at 11:14 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's extremely disappointing that TYT, proudly biased liberals, are in the tank for Trump.

I'm not sure why that's a response to my comment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:14 AM on October 21, 2016


It's extremely disappointing that TYT, proudly biased liberals, are in the tank for Trump.

wat
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:14 AM on October 21, 2016


I subscribe to an RSS feed that provides five vintage "Calvin and Hobbes" comics per day and the resemblance between Calvin and Donald has been getting more and more clear, culminating in this, from July 1995. And for extra "Donald does this", the next day. Yep, America just loves Calvin, and that's one of our greatest flaws.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:14 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


"I believe the harsher Reconstruction and military occupation of the South underlies a lot of the divisiveness that continues today."
Just so that its unambiguous for those reading who aren't necessarily as familiar with the history, the harshness did not involve reparations of any kind for former slaves, simply voting rights, and did not involve material or financial punishment of any kind for those who took up arms against the people of the United States, they just weren't allowed to vote for a while as real democracies were set up to replace the autocracies that dominated Southern politics. We're talking about the Enforcement Acts and Reconstruction Acts, lets not enable racist Southern victim-hood narratives.
posted by Blasdelb at 11:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [41 favorites]


oneswellfoop: Yep, America just loves Calvin, and that's one of our greatest flaws.

You realize you're comparing a cartoon rascal who is perpetually six years old and has a good mix of sass, sarcasm, wit and wisdom, with a 70 year old serial sexual abuser who constantly redefines reality as he sees fit, and lashes out at any perceived slight, right? Just checking.

But I realize there can be some people who can't separate one from the other, given people's literal wish for a president who is a bully who says politically correct offensive things that they can't.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:20 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm not really sure it's surprising or disappointing that she didn't write it herself. That's not really what national politicians do, by in large. The email chain makes it clear she approved it before it went out in her name, and the message was worked out between her communications staff and LGBT outreach staff. I'm also pretty confident she didn't write most of her speech at the Al Smith dinner last night.
posted by zachlipton at 11:21 AM on October 21, 2016 [38 favorites]


On April 14, 1865, Lincoln also signed a piece of legislation that created the Secret Service.
I was also the first time Lincoln had seen Andrew Johnson since the inauguration. Johnson was hungover and drunk and slurred his way through his acceptance speech.

posted by kirkaracha at 11:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Some levity: my life coach has been stumping for Hillary.
posted by pxe2000 at 11:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


".@HillaryClinton's op-ed apologizing 4 AIDS comments made @ Nancy Reagan funeral seems 2 have been written by her staff #PodestaEmails14"

and one would have to assume she signed off on it, so, dot dot dot large question mark? I don't imagine there's much in the way of official planned communication by her that's not passing through a staff writer
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm assuming those are percentage points, but out of what? Total number of first-day early voters?

160,000 first-day in-person voters out of 220,000 votes cast so far. NC SBE releases a CVS file every morning with full voter registration data of those who have voted. Art Pope's Civitas Institute takes the demographic stuff and graphs it.
posted by holgate at 11:22 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm not really sure it's surprising or disappointing that she didn't write it herself.

Oh I'm positively giddy that the best the fuckers can come up with is she doesn't write her own stuff.

She makes policy - the wordsmiths make the speeches.
posted by Mooski at 11:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


Josh Marshall on What Is Russia Trying to Achieve? - The best explanation I've seen is that [Putin] is trying to pull off a so-called 'color revolution' in the US.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Do people really think that every candidate/elected official writes every word that comes out of their office? If they sign off on it, that's fine with me. That is why you have staff.
posted by emjaybee at 11:24 AM on October 21, 2016 [26 favorites]


It would be weird if her staff didn't write that statement. People at the top of organizations, whether they're political candidates or CEOs or whatever, don't typically do their own PR writing. That's why they hire people to work for them who understand their positions on important issues.
posted by something something at 11:24 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Huh Blasdelb, after reading those Wikipedia articles it definitely sounds like Reconstruction was way less harsh than I remember my high school history classes (in liberal Massachusetts, no less) portraying it as being. Grant freed slaves their rights as citizens and re-constitute the state governments. Seems pretty mild to me?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:24 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]



Please people. Don't get complacent. Don't get cocky. Don't tempt the fates. Full court press until November 8th.


Yeah, there seems to be a lot of spiking the ball at the 2 yard line. Hillary has a great chance of winning, but early voting or not, there are still improbable but not impossible events that could swing votes:

1. Hillary has a major, public health scare
2. Terrorist attack within the US blamed/done by foreign nationals (or those perceived to be) on behalf of ISIS
posted by splen at 11:26 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Man this WikiLeaks October Surprises has just been brutal. In their utter banality.

What, banality is perfectly cromulent in braggadocious connotatery.
Booger.
*armpit farts*

posted by petebest at 11:27 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


there are still improbable but not impossible events that could swing votes:

1. Hillary has a major, public health scare
2. Terrorist attack within the US blamed/done by foreign nationals (or those perceived to be) on behalf of ISIS


Both of these things have already happened during the campaign and she is still winning.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


Terrorist attack within the US blamed/done by foreign nationals (or those perceived to be) on behalf of ISIS

But Donald has made such a tremendous joke of himself now that I wonder if any sizeable part of the electorate would run to him saying "yes, he will keep us safe."
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:28 AM on October 21, 2016


"2. Terrorist attack within the US blamed/done by foreign nationals (or those perceived to be) on behalf of ISIS"
The possibility that such a thing would affect the election doesn't scare me nearly so much when I remember Trump's response to the Orlando shootings. I suspect being reminded of how dangerous the world is would only make a lot of Americans reconsider voting for a lunatic just for a shot at affecting the Supreme Court.
posted by Blasdelb at 11:29 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Seriously, I sometimes write things for a senior person, and I'm an admin. He tells me approximately what he wants to convey, I write, he reviews them and signs off on them if they're all right.

I've got to say - as someone who is really uncomfortable with a lot of Clinton's history - that all of this "whoa, she has a staff, sometimes people make mean remarks in email, she sometimes proposes policies even when she secretly thinks something else would work better" garbage is just targeted at low-information voters who are not familiar with how complicated systems work.

I mean, Hillary probably has her staff, like, buy pens and change the toner in the printer and make her hotel reservations too, because her role is specialized and her time is valuable. I don't normally go with "you are too special-wecial to do ordinary human tasks" but being, like, Secretary of State or a serious presidential candidate really is kind of special-wecial.
posted by Frowner at 11:29 AM on October 21, 2016 [70 favorites]


Josh Marshall on What Is Russia Trying to Achieve?
at-first-suspected and now confirmed (according to the US government, at least) Russian meddling in the 2016 election
Heck of a parenthetical remark there.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:29 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


That is why you have staff.

I don't think so. In this instance, it was an enormous gaffe that insulted so many people.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:30 AM on October 21, 2016


Wouldn't it be more important in that case to make sure it is worded correctly?
posted by winna at 11:32 AM on October 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


I for one am shocked--SHOCKED--that Hilary is not personally typing out all of her communications without first consulting with her small army of media consultants. I know that's what I want to see in a president: someone incapable of delegating tasks to staffers hired for that exact purpose.
posted by Mayor West at 11:32 AM on October 21, 2016 [26 favorites]


I for one am shocked--SHOCKED--that Hilary is not personally typing out all of her communications without first consulting with her small army of media consultants. I know that's what I want to see in a president: someone incapable of delegating tasks to staffers hired for that exact purpose.

I'm not going to argue this sarcastic point other than to say that particular statement was a turning point for many, many AIDS/HIV activists, and it was important that many of us thought it came from her own voice.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:34 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillz and Tim are going to be literally right around the corner from my parents' house tomorrow night. I have already made plans to have dinner with my parents at that same exact time. They are not Clinton fans, it would not be great for family unity if I cancelled for that. Also it's going to be a damn madhouse because it's in the bluest neighborhood in an already really blue city so there will be no chance of just "popping over to have a look-see."

Ah, well. I got see Obama speak twice in 08. I should probably be content with that.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:34 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


To me, one reason to have staff write a statement that needs to be just right in tone and content is to have multiple eyes on it, and the most adroit rhetoricians possible involved. This has nothing to do with Clinton's sincerity or insincerity, and in fact seems like a pretty good idea.

And you know what, past a certain point I don't really care what's in a politician's heart. I care what they do and what pressures they're subject to. If Clinton literally does not care about the well-being of gay people but is forced by political circumstance to act as if she does, that's still, you know, a win. We don't get social change because elites suddenly become nice at heart.
posted by Frowner at 11:34 AM on October 21, 2016 [46 favorites]


Here are some details from TPM: Trump Goes After Michelle Obama: 'All She Wants To Do Is Campaign'
posted by msalt at 11:35 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


a good mix of sass, sarcasm, wit and wisdom
Don't want to make this a Calvin derail but the "wit and wisdom" he outsourced to his stuffed tiger. The daily doses of more than a day's worth of the originals have shown me just how much an asshole he was, and how Trump is just the same character who just grew up but never matured. America still loves Garfield too, another comic strip asshole, and I'm sure Dilbert fans all like Dogbert (Scott Adams' would-be doppelganger) the most. The comics. Not funny anymore.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:35 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Do people really think that every candidate/elected official writes every word that comes out of their office?

No. And with Hillary you don't have to parse the phone it was sent from. If she sends it, there's an -H appended. Otherwise, blame Jess.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


> "... it was important that many of us thought it came from her own voice."

People are trying to tell you that "precise wording written by staff" does NOT mean "not her own voice".
posted by kyrademon at 11:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [39 favorites]


Yeah, I write emails on behalf of my bosses all the time. They tell me what I should convey, I write it up into something digestible and professional-sounding, they review it and give the OK, and it goes out. It's a big part of my job; nobody has time to handle all the communications themselves even for this pretty pedestrian small business, so they delegate. Totally normal stuff.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


The Ridiculous Stories Behind Donald Trump’s Movie and TV Cameos
On set, his temperament was often not so agreeable. Interviews with the directors and producers who worked with him reveal erratic and sometimes obnoxious behavior while filming. He threw a fit backstage during a Fresh Prince of Bel-Air shoot, for instance, and got extra cozy with female models on the set of the film 54. “As a producer, I found him incredibly pompous,” says Eric Kopeloff, who worked with Trump for an ill-fated cameo in Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps. Kim Dempster, a filmmaker who directed him in a 2004 movie, found him to be rude and casually sexist. And Madeline Zima, the young actress from the ’90s sitcom The Nanny, says Trump tried to hit on her 19-year-old caretaker when he appeared on the show in 1996.

These are the stories behind a dozen notable Trump cameos—and his ugly behavior behind the scenes.
Features the casting director of Home Alone 2 saying "I know nothing about how orange man got in the film" (apparently he just sort of showed up since he owned the hotel), threw Marla Maples' script all over the floor on The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, hit on an 19-year-old and demanded that the script be changed to describe him as a billionaire and not a millionaire on The Nanny, "He had one hand on one young woman’s thigh and his other hand on the other’s thigh" at a party after shooting 54, and got cut out of Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps after his people sent a memo the day of the shoot indicating how he should be lit ("no red tones please") and what angle he should be shot from (you do not tell Oliver Stone what camera positions to use), among other things.

And Drew Carey is saddened he can't "screw this guy over" because Trump did nothing particularly memorable or wrong on his show.
posted by zachlipton at 11:37 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


People are trying to tell you that "precise wording written by staff" does NOT mean "not her own voice".

OK. I'm done fighting it. I'm just personally disappointed.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


There's a dovetail between Josh Marshall's piece on Russian motivations and the apparent Wikileaks strategy:
At a basic level, what Russia has built, what Russia is trying to do is based on a very incomplete and distorted understanding of what democracies, open societies and free flows of information even are.
Political campaigns are the sausage factories of democracy: career campaign staff on both sides freely admit to it. But when only one side is having its internal communication hacked and leaked on a drip feed under the auspices of blowing the whistle, it looks like one-sided subterfuge and corruption. Standard journalistic practices such as contacting campaigns for comment before a story goes live get treated as underhand collaboration. Having speechwriters work up a statement is seen as insincere.

If she sends it, there's an -H appended.

A leaked email suggested that the "-H" tweets weren't sent directly from her, but dictated and triaged through top campaign staff. She probably doesn't even have Twitter on her phone. Which, I think we all can agree (esp. KellyAnne) is a good thing for a presidential candidate.
posted by holgate at 11:40 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


That's fair. And it does appear that the apology came from her staff, rather than something she directed the vision on and her staff executed, even though she was in the loop and approved the final draft. It's not unreasonable to wish that she had been more involved, especially on an issue that was so personal and where the initial remarks felt like a slap in the face to so many, but it's not what happened, and not something I'm particularly surprised about.
posted by zachlipton at 11:40 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


that particular statement was a turning point for many, many AIDS/HIV activists

But isn't every word that comes out of Clinton's campaign potentially a turning point for some group? If this is your metric, the jobs of speechwriter, communications specialist, social media director, etc. should not exist within politics. Clinton is by no means the only politician who employs such people. I think we'd all like to believe the thing she said that really inspired us was composed by her and only her, but smart people know this isn't the case and move on.
posted by Sara C. at 11:43 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


I do comms for a nonprofit, and my job is to reflect the stances, tone, and policy of my organization and in particular our executive director. She doesn't sign off on every tweet or facebook post because she is too busy actually doing the advocacy stuff, but they are all written in the house style and to the house set of beliefs, on which I receive frequent feedback from her. Believe me, our twitter feed would be 1000% more sarcastic if I were allowed to run it as myself.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:48 AM on October 21, 2016 [23 favorites]


Will the elites in the GOP create a red scare after the election to take back control of the party from the Trumpsters?
posted by humanfont at 11:50 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I dunno humanfont. From what I can see, elites in the Democratic party have already cornered that particular market.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:52 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


> America still loves Garfield too

[fake]
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


> I'm not going to argue this sarcastic point other than to say that particular statement was a turning point for many, many AIDS/HIV activists, and it was important that many of us thought it came from her own voice.

Really? It was completely obvious to me at the time that it was drafted by staff , as was the text of the video she did for us. They ARE her voice. I was happy that the right staff were writing it and that they knew what they were doing and saying. It was professional, informed, and clearly responsive to community concerns. A significant part of why I support Clinton is because she has a professional and experienced team, and that is who she will be hiring to work for her Administration.
posted by gingerbeer at 11:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [31 favorites]


so I'm taking a brief break from my break from paying attention to electoral politics to note that something has gone terribly, terribly awry with journalistic style guides. Check out these articles about the Al Smith dinner (I haven't even read them, because the thing going on in them all is just too distracting to bear):

some thing from Today.com. First paragraph:
Cardinal Timothy Dolan, blessed with the job of playing peacemaker while sitting between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump during a white tie fundraiser, said the two presidential candidates demonstrated a kindness toward each other rarely seen in public
some thing from cbsnews. First paragraph:
The acrimony between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton may be on display almost constantly in their public appearances, but in private, Cardinal Timothy Dolan saw a different side of the major party nominees when the three of them spoke before the Al Smith dinner Thursday night.

St. Louis Today. Headline:
"Cardinal Timothy Dolan blessed Thursday with peacemaker's job – stuck between Trump and Clinton"
Time.com. Key quote:
Because the dinner is a fundraiser for Catholic charities, it’s hosted by the Archbishop of NYC; this year it was hosted by Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who had the particularly choice task of sitting between Clinton and Trump during the formal dinner.
He is styled Timothy Cardinal Dolan, people. Come on, get it right. Saying "Cardinal Timothy Dolan" is like saying "Striped Daniel Tiger."

Of all the many abominations we have experienced over the course of this election season, the breakdown of proper forms of ecclesiastical address is surely among the foremost.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [39 favorites]


From Politico:

A Republican in attendance claimed that the booing was initiated by three Democratic staffers standing in the back of the room, though this reporter heard widespread jeers for Trump from the press position in the ballroom’s balcony.

Even the boos were rigged :(
posted by yasaman at 11:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Booker would be great as President. But like I've said for years, why any Senator wants to give up the more powerful job to be POTUS is beyond me.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a


Because bookish second graders don't memorize a list of each of our past senators
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


Granted, Russia has been up to some incredibly shitty stuff lately, and the chances of their fuckery blowing up in a truly spectacular fashion are increasing with time. Something definitely needs to be done to get Putin to cool the fuck down, but I'm damned if I know what the solution is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:55 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I noted my distaste for the way the media has chased after the Wikileaks stuff above, but since posting that comment a day or two ago my distaste has turned to disgust.

Today it's all about stuff re: Morocco, but what I've seen on TV is kinda reflected in this article from PBS, where it's not until deep in the article that they note:

Clinton Foundation records do not show any direct pledge of funding from the king or government of Morocco to the charity. Commitments to the charity’s CGI program are agreements only to aid the program’s international projects, not to directly fund the Clinton Foundation itself.

Clinton was no longer serving as secretary of State at the time of the meeting in Marrakesh.

What I really appreciate was the reaction from Larry Lessig on the revelation of being dissed in some Clinton campaign emails. That's the high road. I wish the media would take a note rather than scrambling for every little nothingburger.

If something that reveals actual malfeasance comes to light, then yeah, I guess it's important, but this steady sensationalism of 1) a massive breach of privacy 2) by a hostile foreign government 3) for the sake of just general bullshit is, well...not making me think well of everyone who latches onto it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:55 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Timely to the discussion of staff writers, New With Her podcast up today:
Episode 7: They’re not just words
Hillary Clinton’s speechwriter, Megan Rooney, gives Max a lesson in presidential speechwriting—and grammar.
posted by mon-ma-tron at 11:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Will the elites in the GOP create a red scare after the election to take back control of the party from the Trumpsters?

I dunno humanfont. From what I can see, elites in the Democratic party have already cornered that particular market.


I feel like Clinton at least is tying the issues directly to Putin and the "highest levels" of Russian government, and has not been making broad statements about Russian people or people of Russian/E. European descent. Her rhetoric, while taking the hacking issues seriously, has been very careful (from statements I've heard) to not impute the actions of the Russian government to the Russian people or to Russian immigrants living here.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:58 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was taught about Reconstruction in the late 1990s.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:59 AM on October 21, 2016


at what point is it OK to criticize what Putin's government is doing without getting the lolredscare pushback
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:00 PM on October 21, 2016 [37 favorites]


Sure, but I think the headlines are more about the fact that nobody fricking LOSES a charity dinner. And yet Donny managed to pull defeat from the jaws of everybody getting along eating some dry chicken breasts.

It's another paragraph in the chapter of his downfall. The Al Smith Memorial Dinner is the softest of softball events. You show up and you deliver a speech written by your people with some mild jokes and eloquent praise for your hosts. It's the sort of thing that's been an expectation for politicians since the ancient Greeks.

Part of the job of being President is going to include times sharing diplomatic space with people you really dislike. And we're not talking "nasty woman" stuff here. We're talking "my people are killing your people." FDR, Stalin, and Churchill on a boat for example.

Trump failed at self-control during a trivial fluff event for a charity. Nothing was at stake other than his image and relationships with the people in the room. And he blew it because he's angry and feels entitled to express that at any venue. Most of us know he's a hothead with minimal sense of appropriate conduct. The dinner broadcast just made that undeniable.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:00 PM on October 21, 2016 [66 favorites]


Of all the many abominations we have experienced over the course of this election season, the breakdown of proper forms of ecclesiastical address is surely among the foremost.

The first plank of the Salutatory Party* platform.

* AKA The Salutatories.
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:01 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Of all the many abominations we have experienced over the course of this election season, the breakdown of proper forms of ecclesiastical address is surely among the foremost.

Wait, so if John Doe becomes a cardinal, he becomes John Cardinal Doe?
posted by Shepherd at 12:02 PM on October 21, 2016


> It is extremely disappointing to see this tweet that Hillary was not involved in writing the apology statement about Nancy Reagan's funeral.
Clinton is a machine politician, just like her husband, W., Obama, McCain, etc. All of her communications are instrumental. That's a big part of the appeal of people like Sanders and Trump -- you know where they stand.
posted by Coventry at 12:02 PM on October 21, 2016


He is styled Timothy Cardinal Dolan, people. Come on, get it right.

I believe that format is obsolete. Here's what the NYT stylebook says:

cardinal (Roman Catholic). Cardinal Dale T. Cordeiro; Cardinal Cordeiro; the cardinal. Use a given name on first reference, even for the cardinal who is archbishop of New York. Church authorities no longer place Cardinal between given name and surname. Capitalize in the official name of a group: the College of Cardinals.
posted by neroli at 12:03 PM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Yeah, the AP Stylebook agrees:
CARDINALS, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS: The preferred form for first reference is to use Cardinal, Archbishop or Bishop before the individual's name: Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, archbishop of Galveston-Houston. On second reference: DiNardo or the cardinal.
posted by Lexica at 12:05 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Part of the job of being President is going to include times sharing diplomatic space with people you really dislike. And we're not talking "nasty woman" stuff here. We're talking "my people are killing your people." FDR, Stalin, and Churchill on a boat for example.

Trump failed at self-control during a trivial fluff event for a charity. Nothing was at stake other than his image and relationships with the people in the room. And he blew it because he's angry and feels entitled to express that at any venue. Most of us know he's a hothead with minimal sense of appropriate conduct. The dinner broadcast just made that undeniable.


Today's winner of the coveted "I wish I could favorite this a million times" award!
posted by Gelatin at 12:05 PM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Church authorities no longer place Cardinal between given name and surname.

Someone better tell Timothy Cardinal Dolan.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 12:05 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is just further evidence that Trump doesn't even understand how politics works.

Not that they are the be-all of politics, but political party loyalty has clearly always been a whim for Trump. I think he thinks of political parties in terms of what they can do for his business and ambition, not in terms of values and agendas.

- before 1987: Democratic (despite publicly supporting Reagan)
- 1987-1999 Republican
- 1999 - 2001: Reform (first Presidential ambitions)
- 2001-2009: Democratic (flirted with running for POTUS in 04; supported McCain toward end)
- 2009-2011: Republican (after anti-Obama birther publicity)
- 2011-2012: Independent (transition back to GOP, flirted with running for POTUS)
- 2012-present: Republican

I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes an Independent again after this year.

While verifying dates on Wikipedia I also noticed that until the mid-70s Giuliani was a Democrat (in 1975 he started working for the Ford and later Reagan administration Attorneys General).
posted by aught at 12:06 PM on October 21, 2016


He is styled Timothy Cardinal Dolan, people. Come on, get it right. Saying "Cardinal Timothy Dolan" is like saying "Striped Daniel Tiger."

AP Style says to use "Cardinal Firstname Lastname," and many publications follow that styleguide or something similar.
posted by zachlipton at 12:08 PM on October 21, 2016




prize bull octorok, I think there's a real line there that needs to be walked. Given our recent history with the USSR and Russia, it's legitimately difficult to criticize them without invoking the xenophobia and disingenuous propagandizing of the Cold War, a period which a great many Americans lived through and remember very well. On the other hand, Putin is a dangerous fucker who's up to no good. I think we need to be wary of politicians invoking Cold War tropes in service of their foreign policy goals—because I think we will see people drumming up Red Scare paranoia around these issues—while at the same time acknowledging that there are real problems with the way Russia is acting in the world and that we have a humanitarian duty to try and get them to stop some doing some of the things that they're doing.

It's a nuanced subject, so we should listen to our leaders with a critical ear and call them out when they're spouting bullshit (which they will) while at the same time hoping for a solution that will help stop the bleeding in the Middle East and get Russia to stop jeopardizing global stability.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:09 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


> the breakdown of proper forms of ecclesiastical address

NY Times Manual of Style and AP Stylebook (editions on my shelf) both say to write it Cardinal Timothy Dolan. Chicago Manual of Style (16th) leaves wiggle room: "Francis Cardinal George, or, less formally, Cardinal George."

Nothing to get too... exorcised about.

(On preview: Lotta editors in this crowd!)
posted by miles per flower at 12:10 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


I understand the discomfort with HRC not having written certain statements herself, but I also think of when my previous company worked with a famous Latina pop star on a campaign. Basically whenever people working on that project talked about the pop star, they meant about 150 people. "[Latina Pop Star] won't allow us to use X image," "[Latina Pop Star] prefers this line over that one," [Latina Pop Star]'s schedule is too busy that day." Basically, Latina Pop Star wasn't herself in that context, but several hundred people whose jobs and reputations were on the line.

It's the same thing with HRC. She's not just herself at this moment, she's the thousands of people on her staff, and by extension the millions of her supporters. That's why it's important to have wider contribution to each individual statement.
posted by zutalors! at 12:11 PM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


Metafilter: Lotta editors in this crowd!
posted by Tevin at 12:11 PM on October 21, 2016 [21 favorites]


That's why it's important to have wider contribution to each individual statement.

I don't disagree with that. My point is that hers should have been the first draft, not the final approval of someone else's words.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:12 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Looks like Michael Steele has finally stated publicly that he won't be voting for Trump. (Kinda obvious for anyone who watches his punditry on MSNBC and CNN, but still.)
Steele said Trump has “captured the racist underbelly, that frustration, that angry underbelly of American life and gave voice to that,” according to BuzzFeed.

“I was damn near puking during the debates,” Steele said.
posted by xyzzy at 12:16 PM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Really? It was completely obvious to me at the time that it was drafted by staff , as was the text of the video she did for us. They ARE her voice.

Honestly, that to me seems like a feature and not a bug. What I am "buying" with regards to a talented politician is the ability to get shit done. And at the scope of work being done by a presidential candidate and then a president, that work is too big for one person to do without significant help. That HRC is capable of standing up and running an operation like this campaign is a demonstration of everything I want from her.

In the 2004 election my top complaint about GWB wasn't his ideology and pursuits - which I didn't like either - it was his seeming incompetence at carrying out those pursuits, like the way vast amounts of leftover ordinance in Iraq ended up not being secured and possibly - and as we now know, definitely was - picked up by insurgents and other bad actors.

I don't disagree with that. My point is that hers should have been the first draft, not the final approval of someone else's words.

I would say this could be more correctly stated in that you would have liked her to have done the first draft, not should, because what you're proposing doesn't remotely resemble the way competent heads of large operations work anywhere. The fact that the Trump campaign has been such a completely fustercluck is precisely because Trump runs his operations in the way you say you wish HRC would have here.
posted by phearlez at 12:17 PM on October 21, 2016 [48 favorites]


Also, if John Doe and Richard Roe are both cardinals they are John Richard Cardinals Doe Roe.

And if they had a pet cardinal named Joe Blow it would be John Richard Cardinals Doe Roe's cardinal Joe Blow; if that cardinal were made a cardinal, John Richard Cardinals Doe Roe's cardinal Joe Cardinal Blow. Collectively John Richard Joe Cardinals Doe Roe Blow.


This is why people are leaving the church.
posted by Shepherd at 12:18 PM on October 21, 2016 [100 favorites]


160,000 first-day in-person voters out of 220,000 votes cast so far. NC SBE releases a CVS file every morning with full voter registration data of those who have voted. Art Pope's Civitas Institute takes the demographic stuff and graphs it.

The age distribution graph shows that thirty people who are 116 year old voted. That seems, uh, demographically improbable. And my JCPL just jumped. Please tell me I'm wrong...
posted by The Shoodoonoof at 12:18 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


at what point is it OK to criticize what Putin's government is doing without getting the lolredscare pushback

The point where there is no claim that a grand Russian conspiracy to destabilize the US government exists, without any proof but the word of the intelligence community, seems like a good start.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:19 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Nothing was at stake other than his image and relationships with the people in the room.

During the introductions someone mentioned he was born in Queens and a look of shame crossed his face. I think deep down he feels like a bridge-and-tunnel nouveau riche arriviste that doesn't really belong there. That's why his "you used to like me" shtick was so whiny. If he weren’t such a horrible person I’d almost feel sorry for him.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:19 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel like roomthreeseventeen has a legit grievance here. Politicians do sometimes write their own statements on issues that they feel are especially close to their hearts, even if they usually then workshop them a bit with their staffs to make sure that they're not missing a rhetorical trick or making an inadvertent gaffe. I think r317's disappointment is understandable; this issue is particularly important to them, they thought it was equally important to Hillary, and it turns out that at least insofar as this one particular statement goes, it was not. It's reasonable to be disappointed and to to wish that she had paid more personal attention to it, even if one is open-eyed about the way that campaigning politicians operate.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:20 PM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


That's why his "you used to like me" shtick was so whiny.

It did make me feel kind of bad for him. I think that's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first few minutes of his speech.
posted by zutalors! at 12:21 PM on October 21, 2016


A personally-written statement would have signaled that good relations with the LGBTQ community were a major priority for Hillary, basically. Learning that it was a staff-written statement instead signals that maybe it's not quite so high on her list. I can understand being disappointed by that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:22 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]



I feel like roomthreeseventeen has a legit grievance here


Totally agree - didn't want to pile on, just sharing a perspective that I've used to think about this sort of thing. Personally I'd be shattered if she didn't write that Toast piece on their last day - don't tell me what the Podesta emails say!!
posted by zutalors! at 12:23 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


The age distribution graph shows that thirty people who are 116 year old voted. That seems, uh, demographically improbable. And my JCPL just jumped. Please tell me I'm wrong...

That would mean they were born in 1900, which just sounds like the oldest year in some computer system somewhere. Probably not worth getting worried about.
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:23 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


The age distribution graph shows that thirty people who are 116 year old voted.

Probably a data entry/processing error. "Null" might translate to "0" or "00" in the birth year field (i.e. 1900), ---> 116 years old.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:23 PM on October 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


Of all the many abominations we have experienced over the course of this election season, the breakdown of proper forms of ecclesiastical address is surely among the foremost.

Well, copyediting in journalism has been on its deathbed for a while now. Personally my cringe reflex is about worn out at this point reacting to basic grammar and style mistakes in major outlets.
posted by aught at 12:24 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Could Donald Trump Reject the Election Results? Yes. Would It Do Any Good? Nope.

Talk about not really delivering the promise of the title, man. Ending the article with "but that would be uncharted territory" isn't really reassuring. Especially in light of everything that has happened the past year and a half.
posted by cashman at 12:25 PM on October 21, 2016


Yeah shoodoonoof, I'm assuming that that's erroneous data. You're bound to get a bit of that in a sample size of 221,000.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:26 PM on October 21, 2016


Putin does need to be dealt with, but hell no, we should not let "they tried to steal our election!" be the battlecry that leads liberals to support Democrats escalating tensions with Russia.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:26 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


WSJ: Facebook Employees Pushed to Remove Trump’s Posts as Hate Speech (copy/paste the headline into google if you get paywalled):
Some of Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s posts on Facebook have set off an intense debate inside the social media company over the past year, with some employees arguing certain posts about banning Muslims from entering the U.S. should be removed for violating the site’s rules on hate speech, according to people familiar with the matter.

The decision to allow Mr. Trump’s posts went all the way to Facebook Inc. Chief Executive Mark Zuckerberg, who ruled in December that it would be inappropriate to censor the candidate, according to the people familiar with the matter. That decision has prompted employees across the company to complain on Facebook’s internal messaging service and in person to Mr. Zuckerberg and other managers that it was bending the site’s rules for Mr. Trump, and some employees who work in a group charged with reviewing content on Facebook threatened to quit, the people said.
posted by zachlipton at 12:27 PM on October 21, 2016 [37 favorites]


Nice catch, melissasaurus!
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:28 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


That would mean they were born in 1900, which just sounds like the oldest year in some computer system somewhere. Probably not worth getting worried about.

Probably a data entry/processing error. "Null" might translate to "0" or "00" in the birth year field (i.e. 1900), ---> 116 years old.


Whew! You guys are the best!

It did seem too obviously weird, especially with the next oldest voter being 101 which seems totes reasonable to me (my nan made it to 104 and voted, with some encouragement from me, at over 100).

Okay, JCPL back to "normal".
posted by The Shoodoonoof at 12:29 PM on October 21, 2016


Yeah. I'm a journalist and it sucks to have to rely on underpaid, junior editors who assign, copyedit, and fact check because there are no resources to do any of those things except at the most elite publications. (I'm always elated to get A REAL FACT CHECK, which is just sad.) As pay goes down and down, I have to work more and more which also ups my chance of making errors, and the feedback from commenters and readers can be brutal.

I can see how this process has affected election coverage. There's so much pressure to PRODUCE and that churn and race to the bottom feeling affects everything from coverage choices to headlines to the stories themselves. I do as well as I can, but it's impossible to be 100% accurate at all times with little to no supportive infrastructure.

(If this reads as #notalljournalists, it's not intended to—I am driven INSANE when I fuck things up.)
posted by mynameisluka at 12:29 PM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


There has been something of a gag over many years showing some executive as so distanced from normal life he sends his secretaries out for "personal" gifts, like Anniversary presents and the like and has them write out heartfelt letters expressing his feelings, which he then signs off on.

The suggestion here, I think is something like that. There are obviously many standard letters and other communications that make perfect sense for a staff to handle, but something that is alleged to be heartfelt carries at least some expectation of coming from the person whose heart it is alleged to represent. Now, there certainly can be a difference of opinion on whether Hillary signing off at the end of a process or actively starting the process by at least drafting an initial version of an apology letter meets our own individual level of satisfaction, but I don't think roomthreeseventeen is out of line or not smart for having the expectation that such an individual message should come from the individual themselves necessarily.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:30 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


The age distribution graph shows that thirty people who are 116 year old voted.

From the actual CSV, the "Registration Date" entry for those voters is 01/01/1900. DOBs aren't publicly available from the voter lookup, so I think those are people who for some reason don't have a DOB in the register and 1/1/1900 is the placeholder. There is a single 109-year-old voter from Charlotte.

(This is why Voter ID is messy.)
posted by holgate at 12:32 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm weary of being labeled a New McCarthyist just because I'm deeply suspicious of Russia's recent actions on the world stage. They shot down MH-17, installed an anti-aircraft shield in a state that only has American and Russian aircraft in it, are aggressively trying to take over the new sea routes that have opened in the Arctic due to global warming, and just today requested that they be allowed to send polling monitors for the US election.

I don't think I'm a crazy person to be concerned about Russia.
posted by xyzzy at 12:32 PM on October 21, 2016 [83 favorites]


> "This is just further evidence that Trump doesn't even understand how politics works. People on the same side will disagree and even say mean things about each other, but in the end they shake hands and get to work. See: HRC's appointment as Secretary of State."

It should probably be noted that it WASN'T ACTUALLY EVEN SOMETHING MEAN MICHELLE OBAMA SAID ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON. She was referring to something totally different, which had nothing to do with Clinton. It's another completely baseless smear from Trump.

At this point, it would probably be reasonable to assume that anything Donald Trump says is a lie, which he will then lie about, and then lie about lying about.
posted by kyrademon at 12:32 PM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


A personally-written statement would have signaled that good relations with the LGBTQ community were a major priority for Hillary, basically. Learning that it was a staff-written statement instead signals that maybe it's not quite so high on her list. I can understand being disappointed by that.

I agree, and don't have expectations that high for Clinton and LGBTQ rights. But Kaine visited Pulse in Orlando while Pence is responsible for an exploding HIV epidemic in rural Southern Indiana and endorsed conversion therapy, so I'd rather have lukewarm allies than open enemies.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:32 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Could Donald Trump Reject the Election Results? Yes. Would It Do Any Good? Nope.

Trump being Trump, I been wondering about the financial upside to not conceding. Like, as soon as a candidate concedes, they lose their Secret Service security detail. The annecdote from Romney's concession speech is that he arrived in a caravan of SUVs, afterwards he returned home in one vehicle driven by his son. Since we know that Trump force one is being subsidized by the taxpayers, not conceding gives him another two months of discounted airfare.

Besides the obvious reality tv democracy cliffhanger he's trying to make this into, are there other nickel and dime advantages to not conceding that would show up on the Trump balance sheet?
posted by peeedro at 12:33 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Besides the obvious reality tv democracy cliffhanger he's trying to make this into, are there other nickel and dime advantages to not conceding that would show up on the Trump balance sheet?

I'm sure he's already trying to figure out how to funnel campaign funds into his regular legal teams, what with the Trump University trial coming up.
posted by Mooski at 12:35 PM on October 21, 2016


I'm writing in all caps so much because of this election. It can't be healthy.
posted by kyrademon at 12:36 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


The problem with Trump not conceding is not so much transfer of power as it is that it will encourage stochastic terrorism from his supporters.
posted by tavella at 12:38 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Now, there certainly can be a difference of opinion on whether Hillary signing off at the end of a process or actively starting the process by at least drafting an initial version of an apology letter meets our own individual level of satisfaction, but I don't think roomthreeseventeen is out of line or not smart for having the expectation that such an individual message should come from the individual themselves necessarily.

I guess I think that r317's feelings of sadness reflect a utopian desire that has been stoked by this election but that is fundamentally at odds with our politics as they currently exist.

Basically, we want good people to lead us. We want Hillary to have made a significant mistake, not just to have tossed off a random piece of ignorance and have apologized for it for mainly strategic reasons.

And I think that's great, actually. I am really worried about all the of the "Hillary must be a lovely person just like her social media team makes her seem" stuff because I think it's a very attractive way of feeling and provides dangerous cover for politicians, but I also think that it speaks well of people in terms of what we want and expect from our leaders.

I think that getting a president who has that kind of personal caring for her constituents would require a total upending of our political system, but I think that's a worthwhile upending, and I think that it's better to yearn for it than not.
posted by Frowner at 12:38 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


That's a big part of the appeal of people like Sanders and Trump -- you know where they stand.

To be clear, this is the reason Trump is losing. He isn't willing to hire the right people, or enough of them, to get the job done. He's also not willing to either listen or delegate work to the people he has hired. Clinton has him outgunned on almost every front, because she is willing to let her social media people do twitter, and her speechwriters write speeches, and her teleprompter operator set up the teleprompter, and her debate coach coach her for the debates, etc. Not to mention the ground game she can run because she understands that winning this election is bigger than just her.

I'm not willing to weigh in on what I think Sanders would be doing at this point in the race if he had won the primaries, since we are not re-litigating the primaries. But he would certainly need to have "people", as Clinton does, in order to win.
posted by Sara C. at 12:38 PM on October 21, 2016 [44 favorites]


DOBs aren't publicly available from the voter lookup, so I think those are people who for some reason don't have a DOB in the register and 1/1/1900 is the placeholder.

Update: one of the "116"-year-old voters in the NC voting spreadsheet is a former president of a regional League of Women Voters chapter who spoke out against Voter ID last year.
posted by holgate at 12:40 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I guess I think that r317's feelings of sadness reflect a utopian desire that has been stoked by this election but that is fundamentally at odds with our politics as they currently exist.

I will speak for my feelings that I just believe that if you say something like "Nancy was a very effective, low-key" advocate on AIDS/HIV", you should personally take the time to correct that egregious error.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:41 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


The point where there is no claim that a grand Russian conspiracy to destabilize the US government exists, without any proof but the word of the intelligence community, seems like a good start.

is CrowdStrike also not an acceptable source? does "Putin is fucking with us to show off that he can" equate to "grand Russian conspiracy?" my main issue isn't with people objecting to actual suggestions that we escalate hostilities with Russia but that any discussion of what is apparently going on gets met with dismissive snark like we're all ready to fire up the House Un-American Activities Committee just for wondering wtf is the deal
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:42 PM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Did anyone actually see the email that that tweet was referencing? Because that tweet is the pro-Trump version of a quickie summary meant to be as incriminating as possible and still uses wiggle language ("seems 2 have been written"?). I can totally see the actual email saying she wrote a draft and the staff then took it over, being played as THE STAFF ACTUALLY WROTE IT
posted by Mchelly at 12:43 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here's the surrounding context for Michelle Obama's 2007 "if you can't run your own house, you certainly can't run the White House" quote, by the way:
"So our view was that, if you can't run your own house, you certainly can't run the White House. So, so we've adjusted our schedules to make sure that our girls are first, so while he's traveling around, I do day trips. That means I get up in the morning, I get the girls ready, I get them off, I go and do trips, I'm home before bedtime. So the girls know that I was gone somewhere, but they don't care. They just know that I was at home to tuck them in at night, and it keeps them grounded, and, and children, the children in our country have to know that they come first. And our girls do and that's why we're doing this. We're in this race for not just our children, but all of our children."
This is what Trump is claiming was an attack on Hillary Clinton.
posted by kyrademon at 12:43 PM on October 21, 2016 [81 favorites]


I'm weary of being labeled a New McCarthyist just because I'm deeply suspicious of Russia's recent actions on the world stage. They shot down MH-17, installed an anti-aircraft shield in a state that only has American and Russian aircraft in it, are aggressively trying to take over the new sea routes that have opened in the Arctic due to global warming, and just today requested that they be allowed to send polling monitors for the US election.

Yeah, me too! It's complicated because I am also 100% sure that the US state would like nothing better than the rise of anti-Russian Americanist sentiment, and I remember that from the Cold War. (I grew up in a far right town and was known as a "communist" from fifth grade on because people's parents had fed them a lot of garbage about communism and the need to nuke Russia, and I made a very naive "that doesn't sound right" remark...in the middle of my gifted class, no less, and everyone was on me about it like a cheap suit.)

I have definitely noticed this pro-Putin strand in the US left and it really bothers me. Putin is a homophobic, misogynist nationalist. Sure, he's a counterweight to imperial US power, but "would you like to be tyrannized by the US or by someone else" is not where my politics takes me. I'd met pro-Saddam Hussein marxists before, but they seemed to be outliers. (Not "anti-regime-change" but actively pro-SH.) But I seem to be seeing all these pro-Putin people all over the place now.

It make me feel like people are really stupid, like they're genuinely thinking "if they oppose the US, they must be good and we should cheer for them". I was willing to do a certain amount of that for ostensibly left regimes because they usually provided at least some benefits to the people along with the tyranny, but I'm not willing to stan for a mere oligarchy.
posted by Frowner at 12:44 PM on October 21, 2016 [40 favorites]


Right, but that sort of thing is also why many people don't trust her or most politicians and believe they're all dishonest. I'm not saying they're right, but I can't say they're entirely wrong either if one places a value on belief leading to or matching policy, which both does happen and doesn't depending on the people and issues involved. I'm not keen on just chalking it up to the way things are and not looking any deeper at that dynamic since it does mean a lot to people both emotionally and in terms of what gets done.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:44 PM on October 21, 2016


A personally-written statement would have signaled that good relations with the LGBTQ community were a major priority for Hillary, basically.

Can we please just judge politicians on the actual policies they enact? Whether Hillary writes the statement herself or whether she reviews someone else's draft and then signs off on it has zero to do with whether she believes what is written in that statement or not, or with her commitment to actually enacting policy that betters the lives of the LGBTQ community.

She needs to spend her time on the things that actually add value, and poring over the first draft of a statement that she has hired good writers to do for her does not make the cut. It does not mean she is not sincere, but simply that she is a person with limited time, and more competing interests than other people. Would you want her to spend more time on that draft if it would mean she could give one public appearance and thus increase the chance of her getting elected? I wouldn't. I want her to do whatever she needs to do to maximize the chance of her getting elected, because that the only way she will be able to enact good LGBTQ policy, or good immigration policy, or good economic policy - or whatever other policy is close to your heart.

And frankly, the only reason you are able to see behind the curtain in this instance, is because of an illegal theft of emails by an outside organization. That is the only reason you are able to derive signals from what should really have been an internal communication, not meant for public scrutiny. There are things only Hillary Clinton is able to do, and she must devote her time to them. There are things other people can do for her and she is smart enough to let them do it. Delegation is one of the most important skills for a good manager, and arguably the most important skill possible for a President. She will never have the time to personally do all the things she wants to do - she has to make hard choices, select smart people and trust them. That's the mark of a good leader.
posted by peacheater at 12:45 PM on October 21, 2016 [79 favorites]


Would you want her to spend more time on that draft if it would mean she could give one public appearance and thus increase the chance of her getting elected? I wouldn't.

That's the thing - we don't know what other tradeoffs she would have had to make to write that draft. Also, again to the point that she's not just one person anymore, there were like 80 people waiting for her to do other things on whatever day she would have written that note - she would have bottlenecked her own campaign.
posted by zutalors! at 12:47 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton has him outgunned on almost every front, because she is willing to let her social media people do twitter, and her speechwriters write speeches, and her teleprompter operator set up the teleprompter, and her debate coach coach her for the debates, etc. Not to mention the ground game she can run because she understands that winning this election is bigger than just her.

One of the reasons I've moved from the "I guess I'll vote for Clinton" column to the "I am so freaking excited to vote for Clinton (in 4 days!)" column is because of the way she's run her general election campaign. I'm so tired of incompetence. I want to be able to focus on the policy areas that are important to me, and not have to worry about whether her campaign has actually placed her name on the ballot in every state or whatever. The thought of having someone in office who can jump right into governance, with an awesome staff, on the first day is such a relief. I want to use my energy to pull her to the left on the death penalty or fracking, not waste my time stressing about whether her team can even properly order office supplies.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [60 favorites]


Richard Branson would like us to know about the meeting he had with Trump a few years back:
Some years ago, Mr Trump invited me to lunch for a one-to-one meeting at his apartment in Manhattan. We had not met before and I accepted. Even before the starters arrived he began telling me about how he had asked a number of people for help after his latest bankruptcy and how five of them were unwilling to help. He told me he was going to spend the rest of his life destroying these five people.

He didn’t speak about anything else and I found it very bizarre. I told him I didn’t think it was the best way of spending his life. I said it was going to eat him up, and do more damage to him than them. There must be more constructive ways to spend the rest of your life. (Hopefully my advice didn’t lead to him running for President!)
He thinks Trump is vindictive and too worried about himself and not, you know, the world. He also had a one-on-one with Clinton where she listened and discussed important issues of the day: "As she understands well, the President of the United States needs to understand and be engaged with wider world issues, rather than be consumed by petty personal quarrels."

Branson out.
posted by zachlipton at 12:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [47 favorites]


I think it's kind of a "boy who cried wolf" situation, octorok. Americans are used to their politicians and media people telling howlers about what Russia is up to while at the same time doing stuff that is just as shitty elsewhere in the world. We're inclined to discount negative stories about Russia's actions in the world because we've had to listen to so much bullshit on that front for so long. If people are having a hard time believing their politicians when they say that Russia is up to no good, well, there's a reason for that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think I'm a crazy person to be concerned about Russia.

Sure. But we mustn't do anything hasty about it, nor be suckered into supporting hasty actions.

I have definitely noticed this pro-Putin strand in the US left and it really bothers me.

Must be the remnants of old-school Marxist groups, because if anything, pro-Putin sentiment is on the avant-garde of the alt-right. They fetishize Russia for perceived support of Western/white values, its strong stance against Islamic dissidents, its regressive social policies, and the machismo of Putin and the Russian armed forces.

But, just because your political enemies support Russia, does not you should reflexively oppose Russia, in such a manner that would lead to further international conflict and bloodshed. Clinton wants to prove she's better than presidents who have come before, let her be a peacemaker.

If people are having a hard time believing their politicians when they say that Russia is up to no good, well, there's a reason for that.

Saddam, Gaddafi, the Iranian regime were and are up to no good. But again, there are different degrees of action that are prudent.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]



I will speak for my feelings that I just believe that if you say something like "Nancy was a very effective, low-key" advocate on AIDS/HIV", you should personally take the time to correct that egregious error.


I think so too, basically, and I really regret that I also think that HC is not - and no mainstream Democratic candidate is - the type of person who would have that thought or the feelings around it. I know I'm coming across as either patronizing or an asshole (or both, why not both?) and I'm sorry - it's just that it is my deeply held belief that very, very few powerful US political figures have that kind of compassion, emotional engagement and habit of being present in that way. I think that the desire for them to be this way is a powerful, transformative and good desire, and its surfacing is one of the good things that has come out of this election, IMO.
posted by Frowner at 12:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait, so if John Doe becomes a cardinal, he becomes John Cardinal Doe?

then why don't we say lou cardinal brock?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:49 PM on October 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


...he would certainly need to have "people", as Clinton does, in order to win.
Having people write your tweets is not the fundamental issue, here. It's the possibility that the views presented by the campaign don't reflect her authentic views.
posted by Coventry at 12:49 PM on October 21, 2016


you should personally take the time to correct that egregious error.

But wasn't the whole thing mainly an error of fact? Apologizing would ultimately take the form of "It turns out I was ignorant of this thing, so I took the time to gain a broader understanding of the thing that I was ignorant about. Now I feel bad that I made a mistake. Sorry." That's absolutely junior level PR flack stuff. It's not something that requires Hillary Rodham Clinton's full attention.

I agree that it would be a nice story if, in making this gaffe, Clinton had some kind of come to jesus moment with regard to LGBT issues and was able to pen a heart-felt and beautifully composed essay about it.

But the reality is that she said a dumb thing, realized she was incorrect, and apologized for making the gaffe. In a way, pretending that she had this big transformational moment would be more dishonest than what actually happened, which is that she realized she made an error and apologized through the usual channels that people in her position use to do that.

I don't think it's fair to fault a politician for not publicly performing the experience of a massive change of heart. (Or worse, faulting them for not doing that what in you deem is the correct way.) Especially regarding what was ultimately a point of fact. There was never going to be a big "sinners come to the altar" moment about this particular thing, and it's weird to be angry about that.
posted by Sara C. at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


On the naming of cardinals -- it's a shame we can't consult the late Jaime Cardinal Sin, prelate of Manila.

He had a good sense of humor about it and said he was from "the House of Sin."
posted by msalt at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Must be the remnants of old-school Marxist groups, because if anything, pro-Putin sentiment is on the avant-garde of the alt-right. They fetishize Russia for perceived support of Western/white values, its strong stance against Islamic dissidents, its regressive social policies, and the machismo of Putin and the Russian armed forces.

I don't think it's marxists, actually - that would bother me less because it would be the tail end of something. It's mostly people who are the stereotype of Berniebros (as distinct from the vast majority of Bernie supporters). It's popped up in weird places, usually in with the "let's elect Trump, he'll burn it down" line of reasoning.
posted by Frowner at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's the possibility that the views presented by the campaign don't reflect her authentic views.

I don't want a candidate who runs a campaign, or governs in office, based on their authentic views. I want a candidate who does the job well, wins, and then governs well.
posted by Sara C. at 12:52 PM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can we please just judge politicians on the actual policies they enact?

The problem with that though is we can only do that after the fact, the issue many people are turned off by is that they see claims of values not matching results. This isn't just with Clinton, and from my perspective not really a knock against her, but the desire for more genuine engagement is out there and dealing with that too would be helpful in running an administration and getting people elected.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:52 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's the possibility that the views presented by the campaign don't reflect her authentic views.

This just in: Clinton doesn't write her own songs, either.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:53 PM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


I have definitely noticed this pro-Putin strand in the US left and it really bothers me. Putin is a homophobic, misogynist nationalist. Sure, he's a counterweight to imperial US power, but "would you like to be tyrannized by the US or by someone else" is not where my politics takes me. I'd met pro-Saddam Hussein marxists before, but they seemed to be outliers. (Not "anti-regime-change" but actively pro-SH.) But I seem to be seeing all these pro-Putin people all over the place now.

Sure, this type exists, but you don't need to be a Counterpunch writer to find the evidence presented by heavily breathing centrist Democrats unconvincing.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:54 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


If people are having a hard time believing their politicians when they say that Russia is up to no good, well, there's a reason for that.

a reason one would think would not stand long as a justification for knee-jerk patronizing dismissals if one spends a minute or five researching the question of whether Putin (not Russia, not Communism, not Slavic Peoples In General) is or is not a good dude on the world stage
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:54 PM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


I will speak for my feelings that I just believe that if you say something like "Nancy was a very effective, low-key" advocate on AIDS/HIV", you should personally take the time to correct that egregious error.

See, I feel like that was done. Whether someone's actual heartfelt words are best produced by them personally writing a first draft or a final draft depends a lot on the person and how well their staff knows them. I guess I can see some appeal in they cared enough to take care of this personally start to finish but I just cannot personally reconcile that with someone at that level actually getting things done.

To me the only thing in that revelation - to use the word generously - that I find possibly disappointing is the sense that the staff had to bring to HRC's attention that there needed to be a response here and an acknowledgement of fucking up. I'm way less concerned with everything perfectly reflecting HRC's inner feelings than I am with the idea that she'll spot fuckups/blind spots/etc and correct them.

But even then this just doesn't give me enough to go on to know I should be bugged. HRC can't monitor the world's reaction to her personally - she needs people to do that. For all I know from this two image reveal that's what had happened here and they were just being good staff by coming in with a report and a solution together, ready to fix this. If HRC was the kind of person who was personally obsessing over media comments and reactions to her by watching stuff personally, again, we'd have Trump and his tv distractions.

I dunno, it may be that my overton disappointment window has been so firmly shifted by Trump that I can no longer properly assess what I wish politicians would be.
posted by phearlez at 12:54 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


But wasn't the whole thing mainly an error of fact?

Not so much.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:55 PM on October 21, 2016


This derail about intention seems like a passive-aggressive way to relitigate Bernie Sanders' candidacy. If you like, we can talk about how his statements didn't match his actions on issues like the Sierra Blanca nuclear waste dump, his bit of blatant environmental racism.

But I think it's better to move forward and stop nit-picking Clinton for stuff every male politican does.
posted by msalt at 12:55 PM on October 21, 2016 [29 favorites]


It's the possibility that the views presented by the campaign don't reflect her authentic views.

I guess my point above was the writing or not writing of a tweet or a statement doesn't in any way indicate, one way or the other, what her "authentic views" are. Obama delivered some amazing, heartfelt, moving speeches - but there are interviews with his speechwriters talking about how they would deliver a first draft to him in the evening, and he would edit it at night. Even the most authentic sounding speeches are worked on by a team, I guarantee. And the point is - that doesn't mean that Obama doesn't agree with what he utlimately says - of course he does, he has the final say, he is the decision maker. But he has limited time, and so does everyone else heading up a complex organization.
posted by peacheater at 12:56 PM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


This derail about intention seems like a passive-aggressive way to relitigate Bernie Sanders' candidacy.

That wasn't remotely my intention.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]



This derail about intention seems like a passive-aggressive way to relitigate Bernie Sanders' candidacy.


I agree, I had this feeling too.
posted by zutalors! at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Totally with you on that octorok, but people by and large don't pay that much attention to what's going on on the world stage, and even among those of us who do keep half an eye on such things our initial skepticism may take a little time to overcome. Recall that the Cold War propagandizing against the USSR reached even into textbooks, classrooms, and official references. That kind of damage to the public trust is not easy to undo.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2016


> I guess I think that r317's feelings of sadness reflect a utopian desire that has been stoked by this election but that is fundamentally at odds with our politics as they currently exist.

I will speak for my feelings that I just believe that if you say something like "Nancy was a very effective, low-key" advocate on AIDS/HIV", you should personally take the time to correct that egregious error.


You are of course fully entitled to feel how you feel. Does the fact that she also met, personally, with a group of key HIV advocates, and filmed a video addressing her policy proposals on HIV, including HIV criminalization, have any impact for you? From my experience, something like drafting an op-ed is a classic staff task, and not really reflective of how important an issue is. That said, I'm not going to try to argue you out of how you feel.
posted by gingerbeer at 12:58 PM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


It's all good and well to oppose Putin, but we probably shouldn't deploy troops to Syria in order to do so.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:59 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Does the fact that she also met, personally, with a group of key HIV advocates, and filmed a video addressing her policy proposals on HIV, including HIV criminalization , have any impact for you?

100% absolutely, although that was well after the incident that I was talking about. Both things can co-exist.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:00 PM on October 21, 2016


It's my impression from reading between the Keepin' it 1600 lines that Obama was unusual as a politician for taking as much of a hand with his speeches as he did (e.g. staying up until 3 AM editing the drafts he was given rather than just giving them a read, changing a few words to sound more like his voice and calling it a day). He's a uniquely great orator and rhetorician who had a uniquely great speechwriting staff, and I think has spoiled us all a bit for what to expect when it comes to politicians writing stuff.

I'm on Team Cynical, though. I assume that the way the sausage is made is not something meant for human eyes, lest we be driven gibbering mad. (As much as I love my inside baseball podcasts right now. It's a sickness.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:01 PM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


OK late to the game, but c'mon sheeple!

Hillary is so corrupt, she makes risotto with George Soros's stock.

Hillary is so corrupt, it takes a hostile congress, years of redundant investigations, and an unmedicated personality disorder to even see it! Even then, you might still have to scrunch up your face like an orange scrotum.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 1:01 PM on October 21, 2016 [21 favorites]


This derail about intention seems like a passive-aggressive way to relitigate Bernie Sanders' candidacy.

Not from me it isn't. And I'll stop there lest I say something untoward.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:01 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Priests Should Have Given Trump His Last Rites Last Night. This thing is done.

*turn turn turn curse spit*
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:03 PM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


a reason one would think would not stand long as a justification for knee-jerk patronizing dismissals if one spends a minute or five researching the question of whether Putin (not Russia, not Communism, not Slavic Peoples In General) is or is not a good dude on the world stage

Putin is really bad. That doesn't mean his government has actually interfered in the US election.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:03 PM on October 21, 2016


Mod note: Folks, I feel like this should-staff-write-stuff is the kind of subjective thing that's going to be totally unresolvable through argument to an extent it hasn't been already, so maybe let's just collectively stop circling back on it regardless at this point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:03 PM on October 21, 2016 [26 favorites]


Wake me up when Wikileaks reveals how the sausage on Toast was made.
posted by acidic at 1:06 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Putin is really bad. That doesn't mean his government has actually interfered in the US election.

likewise, people who assume CrowdStrike or US intelligence agencies are correctly assessing the situation aren't McCarthyists.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:06 PM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


Putin is really bad. That doesn't mean his government has actually interfered in the US election.
Oklahoma and two other states say they have denied a request by Russian officials to be present at polling stations during the Nov. 8 election.
posted by xyzzy at 1:07 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sony might not be as important to governance as the DNC, but we didn't do anything overly punitive against North Korea after their hack. Obama imposed sanctions but didn't try to retaliate through any other means. Why should we likewise do anything antagonistic against Russia?
posted by Apocryphon at 1:08 PM on October 21, 2016


Dude, I'm an English major. I dance every time a professional writer gets gainfully employed.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:10 PM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oklahoma and two other states say they have denied a request by Russian officials to be present at polling stations during the Nov. 8 election.

That's just like Chavez offering aid during Katrina. They're diplomatically trolling the U.S. by treating us like a third world country- that's not actual cloak and dagger shit
posted by Apocryphon at 1:11 PM on October 21, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oklahoma and two other states say they have denied a request by Russian officials to be present at polling stations during the Nov. 8 election.

This is fake, right? Right?

Oh, good lord.

Oklahoma, Texas and Louisiana.
posted by zarq at 1:13 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


I doubt there is anything to gain from further discussion of the veracity of Russian hacking allegations absent new information. Minds seem to be made up.
posted by humanfont at 1:14 PM on October 21, 2016


Of course they're diplomatically trolling us in a publicity stunt. The point is that they could have chosen to not do that in an effort to distance themselves from any appearance of impropriety.
posted by xyzzy at 1:14 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


[Folks, I feel like this should-staff-write-stuff is the kind of subjective thing that's going to be totally unresolvable through argument to an extent it hasn't been already, so maybe let's just collectively stop circling back on it regardless at this point.]

OK, but did cortex actually write this himself?
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2016 [36 favorites]


It seems pretty clear - even from this discussion - that there isn't much intellectual space for any position that's not "Russia is evil, we should fight them in Syria, on the beaches, etc" and "Russia would never mess with the US in its own interests and anyone who says so must be a neo-McCarthyite".

Surely it is possible to believe both that Putin is extremely shady and capable of interfering in US affairs and that opening up another front in our perpetual war would be a terrible idea?

For one thing, look, the US interferes in crap all the time. If we had the chance to take Putin down by email hacks, how fast would we be hacking? And anyone who wants to say that Russia is a more moral state than the US is arguing on pretty tricky ground, I think.

I guess it reflects an underlyingly American activist approach to foreign policy - we are not schooled in "sure they're bad actors, that doesn't mean we have to bomb them".
posted by Frowner at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Whatever shenanigans they may be trying, if you're trying to cheat in Oklahoma, Texas and Louisiana you're cheating in the wrong place.

"Guys! If we try hard enough, I'll bet we can help Golden State to beat the 76ers!"
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:16 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


It seems pretty clear - even from this discussion - that there isn't much intellectual space for any position that's not "Russia is evil, we should fight them in Syria, on the beaches, etc"

Is anyone here taking that position? I sure as hell am not.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 PM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


There were US election officials (including the Alabama secretary of state) in Russia as part of the OSCE observer mission for the Duma elections over the summer.

It's trolling, of course, but it's pointed trolling. (And I mixed up OSCE with OECD in an earlier comment.)
posted by holgate at 1:17 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


A moment of levity: A friend of mine is deep into playing DOTA and has noticed a huge influx of Middle Eastern players during the hours he battles. He texted me and asked if I knew Kellyanne Conway's Five Point Plan to Defeat Islam.
posted by xyzzy at 1:17 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Putin is really bad. That doesn't mean his government has actually interfered in the US election.

It doesn't mean he hasn't, either. The thing is—we don't know for certain. (The other thing is—these claims usually turn into an argument of what "interfered" means, precisely.) There seems to be some smattering of evidence that some Russian or Russian-connected actors have at least made an effort to wield some influence of over the race and there's much more circumstantial evidence. Against all that the repeated insistence that Putin's definitely guiltless here starts to look like special pleading.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


My point by bringing up North Korea is that they are an openly antagonistic regime that has almost certainly hacked us before, yet we were wary enough of the dangers of destabilizing them that we refrained from doing so. We should also exercise such caution when dealing with a nuclear superpower. Culpability is less important than caution.

Given the Republican efforts to stop certain groups from voting, their response is pretty much on the mark.

And given how we handled Katrina, the Venezuelans had a point, too.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2016


"Russia is evil, we should fight them in Syria, on the beaches, etc"

Who in the what now?
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:19 PM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


On a lighter note, in today's Daily Beast, Joy-Ann Reid writes about the sinking Trump brand and how it affects Ivanka's bottom line.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:21 PM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


OK, but did cortex actually write this himself?

It's pretty naive to believe that, as with most nationally-prominent political and business visionaries, "cortex" is anything but a sort of composite persona generated by the coordinated work product of an individual and his extensive and hard-working staff of researchers, writers, songsmiths, editors, and coders. (What do you folks think this is, the 20th century?)
posted by aught at 1:21 PM on October 21, 2016 [29 favorites]


Who in the what now?

I was thinking of the whole "let's have a no-fly zone in Syria even though that will be terrible for Syria and escalate tensions with Russia" part of HC's foreign policy. She's pretty aggro about Russia for reasons that really, really do not compute for me, and the type of engagement she seems to advocate in Syria seems likely to be a defacto "fight" with Russia.

Not that Trump would be better! Not that Russia plays nice and the whole thing would be a cakewalk if it weren't for the US! But still!
posted by Frowner at 1:23 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Interesting Twitter account: Michael McDonald, @ElectProject is putting out lots of cools graphs and charts tracking early voting across the US
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:23 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm on Team Cynical, though. I assume that the way the sausage is made is not something meant for human eyes, lest we be driven gibbering mad. (As much as I love my inside baseball podcasts right now. It's a sickness.)

I want video of Obama practicing variations of his "c'mon" in front of a mirror like playing scales until he gets it just right.
posted by srboisvert at 1:24 PM on October 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm not going to argue this sarcastic point other than to say that particular statement was a turning point for many, many AIDS/HIV activists, and it was important that many of us thought it came from her own voice.

Just how unsophisticated do you expect your elected officials to be? I used to work for a government communications department, and I wrote speeches for executive.

I didn't just wing it. There are key constituencies to be spoken to, key messages to be addressed and included, all sorts of things. Typically all of these nuts and bolts are documented as part of a communications plan.

It's not ad hoc. It's part of a process. Whoever is giving the speech has to sign off and deliver the damn thing. In their own voice.
posted by My Dad at 1:24 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's pretty naive to believe that, as with most nationally-prominent political and business visionaries, "cortex" is anything but a sort of composite persona generated by the coordinated work product of an individual and his extensive and hard-working staff of researchers, writers, songsmiths, editors, and coders. (What do you folks think this is, the 20th century?)

There exists substantial circumstantial evidence that cortex is really a million monkeys and a Markov chain.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:26 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Interesting Twitter account: Michael McDonald, @ElectProject is putting out lots of cools graphs and charts tracking early voting across the US

You could even say that he's taking it to the tweets.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:27 PM on October 21, 2016 [49 favorites]


I wish I understood even a fraction of what's happening in Syria so I could confidently assert what I thought HRC should do there, or not do there. But I don't. I hope she doesn't make it worse, I hope she can make it better, but what doing so would consist of is baffling to me.
posted by emjaybee at 1:27 PM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


Putin's Russia is not the U.S.S.R. (although in opposition to most of my Social Studies teachers, I came to the early conclusion that Soviet Communism was mostly Fascism wearing an unconvincing Socialist disguise). It can not be seriously considered a 'superpower' except in the possession of some-but-not-nearly-all of the old U.S.S.R.'s military assets (I don't even think it controls all of the nukes). He does try to emulate Stalin, the unequivocal worst of the Soviet Fascists, but he has nothing near the Evil Empire that Stalin built and is less likely to build anything comparable than Trump is to win the election. In that way, he's much more dangerous if his evil ways devolve into something North-Korean-Kim-like.

As I've mentioned before, I met a coworker of my father's named Assad who was son of a family member of Syria's ruling family kicked out before they even took over the country in 1971, so I can declare that I have supported any effort to overthrow Syria's government longer than any of you. One of my secondary objections to the Iraqi War could've been summed up as "Why Not Syria First?!?"
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:27 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think this Thanksgiving, at the annual game of Cards Against Humanity, my family will need a few Donald Trump cards.
posted by Ber at 1:28 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's pretty aggro about Russia for reasons that really, really do not compute for me, and the type of engagement she seems to advocate in Syria seems likely to be a defacto "fight" with Russia.

That's what I was picking up on earlier. Trump fans hate that because they love Putin with all of their alt-right hearts and want to kiss him on the lips, and Jill Stein fans/Bernie Or Bust types hate that because they want to paint Clinton as the most dangerous monstrous caricature possible. But, the danger that a Democratic administration might do the wrong thing for the right reason is still present. The Clinton administration might not, say, unilaterally institute a no-fly zone, but they might potentially still do something risky if they have an anti-Russian agenda for whatever reason. And the whole "Putin empowered Trump" narrative just lines up willing supporters for such action.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:29 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Meanwhile, Uncle Joe just said of Trump, "Don't I wish I were debating him? No, I wish we were in high school, and I could take him behind the gym." I feel confident in stating that this was probably not initially drafted by a staffer.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:29 PM on October 21, 2016 [51 favorites]


There exists substantial circumstantial evidence that cortex is really a million monkeys and a Markov chain.

Maybe a ukulele as well?
posted by Mooski at 1:32 PM on October 21, 2016


Interesting Twitter account: Michael McDonald, @ElectProject is putting out lots of cools graphs and charts tracking early voting across the US

What's Left of the Doobie Brothers are performing near me (Vina Robles Amphitheater, Central California) TONIGHT. Just saying. What's Left of the Monkees will be there tomorrow night. Eagerly awaiting tweets from Michael Nesmith.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:34 PM on October 21, 2016


"The Hawk on Russia Policy? Hillary Clinton, Not Donald Trump" - David E. Sanger, NYT
posted by Apocryphon at 1:35 PM on October 21, 2016


My point by bringing up North Korea is that they are an openly antagonistic regime that has almost certainly hacked us before

Every government that can afford enough ethics-free nerds is gonna be hacking on each other. Usually they don't talk about it. USG could easily blame the North Korean gov't because they're a complete pariah. Publicly blaming the Kremlin, however, amounts to an escalation, whether or not the Kremlin's actually responsible.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 1:35 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I voted today. I picked my pen up and set it back down again a couple of times and then had to wipe the tears out of my eyes before I could fill in the oval; it was powerful moment. Of course I'm petty enough to be a little disappointed that there wasn't anyone at the ballot collection box handing out "I Voted" stickers, but I guess I can buy myself one if it continues to bug me.

I'm signed up for as many canvass shifts as I can between now and Election Day. Eighteen days, y'all!!
posted by danielleh at 1:36 PM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


"No, I wish we were in high school, and I could take him behind the gym."

I think I speak for all of us in saying this is not the slashfic we ordered.
posted by jackbishop at 1:36 PM on October 21, 2016 [53 favorites]


I love Joe Biden to tiny little bits, but so often he is a walking example of exactly why campaigns include people to handle the writing of statements and speeches.
posted by palomar at 1:38 PM on October 21, 2016 [56 favorites]


I wish I understood even a fraction of what's happening in Syria so I could confidently assert what I thought HRC should do there, or not do there. But I don't. I hope she doesn't make it worse, I hope she can make it better, but what doing so would consist of is baffling to me.

The thing is, while I don't know what anyone should do in Syria, I think an educated layperson can look at recent US interventions and develop some ideas about what is unlikely to make things better. I've been paying attention to "humanitarian" US military interventions for something like 25 years now, and I am very skeptical of them, particularly ones that involve bombing things and aiming for regime change. I think we took the wrong tack in Libya, for instance, which is not to say that there were a lot of really good alternatives.

I think that Americans tend to underestimate how complicated civil society is and what a disaster a regime collapse-change can be, and also to underestimate the skill, resources and genuinely disinterested public service that would be needed if the US were to go into a country and push regime change/restructuring. The US is not a left-leaning NGO. Anytime you see us "intervening" somewhere, it's in American interests, and that tends to fuck things up.
posted by Frowner at 1:40 PM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


I think I speak for all of us in saying this is not the slashfic we ordered.

I hate you a little for the visual that created. Just saying.

In other news, o dear sweet mother of mercy when will I learn to stop hitting F5 on these threads.
posted by Mooski at 1:41 PM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


"The Hawk on Russia Policy? Hillary Clinton, Not Donald Trump" - David E. Sanger, NYT

In other breaking news, water is wet.
posted by zarq at 1:41 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


But again, I think that public pressure on Hillary Clinton is important. She doesn't need to be against US intervention in her heart, or to stop hanging out with hawkish bankers or whatever; she just needs to be responsive to her constituency, and I trust her far more on that score than I do the Donald. (That is, hopefully we're not generally in favor of more fronts in the Eternal War.)
posted by Frowner at 1:43 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was thinking of the whole "let's have a no-fly zone in Syria even though that will be terrible for Syria and escalate tensions with Russia" part of HC's foreign policy.
Obama wanted to keep supplying aid to Jordan and other places affected by the humanitarian crisis while keeping his hands firmly out of regime change. But he was convinced by the CIA director that if the rebels didn't get some US support they would gain support from terrorist organizations instead. Trying to thread the needle, Obama rejected HRC's proposal of weapons and training and supplied food and medical kits to the rebels instead. This decision was possibly the worst one he could make--he pissed off Russia, Iran, and Syria while providing just enough support for the rebels to prolong their resistance to defeat, further escalating the humanitarian crisis. I'm not saying that HRC's idea was any better--she would have still pissed off Russia & co. while dropping the US into another quagmire of regime change in the Middle East. So, for me, the real question is this: What did HRC learn from Obama's foreign policy directives and did it make her more or less hawkish? I am concerned that the lesson she learned was that Obama was just not muscular enough.
posted by xyzzy at 1:44 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


The point where there is no claim that a grand Russian conspiracy to destabilize the US government exists, without any proof but the word of the intelligence community, seems like a good start.

Are we still doing this? Because I thought I was pretty clear last thread when we discussed this that 1. There's actual evidence and consensus far beyond the word of some three letter agencies, and 2. Just because you don't understand doesn't mean there's not evidence.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 1:45 PM on October 21, 2016 [21 favorites]


I think Putin knew Trump was a long-shot but figured "eh, why not?" and that it would be great trolling even if his useful idiot didn't make it.

It's funny though that no one thinks HRC and the Dems calling him on this could be them trolling Putin and the Right back. Nah, it's clearly Hillary warmongering again.
posted by asteria at 1:46 PM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]




What did HRC learn from Obama's foreign policy directives and did it make her more or less hawkish? I am concerned that the lesson she learned was that Obama was just not muscular enough.

This is one of the things I really hate about the US being a Great Power, and in fact about Great Powers generally. I don't think Hillary is cynically thinking "hahahaha let's destabilize the Middle East while antagonizing Russia and then.....profit!!!" I think she has reasons of state that sound moral and true to her, and I think she draws upon a lot of experience and knowledge - I just think that all this Great Power thinking has been proven to be enormously destructive to ordinary people worldwide, far more destructive than the bad results of a more hands off approach. (And I'm not saying that a hands-off approach would make the world a fantastic place, just that it often seems like the least bad of shitty choices.) Step back our activist military engagement, bring more immigrants and refugees into this enormous, rich country of ours, deal less arms - and only then evaluate more aggressive action.
posted by Frowner at 1:50 PM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hey, Special Agent Dale Cooper?...not everyone reads every thread and there doesn't need to be concensus on any issue.
posted by agregoli at 1:50 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's pretty aggro about Russia for reasons that really, really do not compute for me, and the type of engagement she seems to advocate in Syria seems likely to be a defacto "fight" with Russia.

My impression is that, when it comes to military affairs, Clinton is an advocate and practitioner of the curious blend of realist and idealist schools of foreign policy that characterizes much of the U.S. state apparatus. As per the realists, international relations are about states pursuing their interests, and when there are multiple states whose desired spheres of influence overlap, a fight, cold or hot, is inevitable. As per the idealists, it is good and right for the American sphere of influence to be as wide as possible, since America is on the side of justice and freedom and democracy. So Poland and Ukraine and Syria should be in the American sphere of influence, because America is good - that's the idealism - and, as per realism, this leads to an inevitable fight with Russia because they also want Poland and the Ukraine in their sphere of influence, and there's nothing you can do about that because it's the Russian state interest vs. the American state interest.

The Romans had a similarly blended attitude to foreign affairs, and it led to the quip that they "conquered the world in self-defense". The US believes, and Clinton seems to be mainstream in sharing the belief, that it wages war and relentlessly expands its sphere of influence in order to bring peace.
posted by clawsoon at 1:51 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


In the meantime, the curtailment of early voting times and sites in NC's biggest cities (where GOP-controlled county boards resisted all aspects of the federal court ruling that they could) means four-hour queues to vote. I have seen "voter ID not required" signs posted in a few places.
posted by holgate at 10:37 AM

When you were writing this the spousal unit and I were standing in line to vote in Wake County. We arrived a little after 9:00 when the doors opened and we stood in line for about 1hr 40 mi. While in line we had two people approach us with business cards, both running for the local school board. I asked both about their children. The older black woman had two in the local schools and a husband who taught in them. The younger white man had a 7 year old but said she was in private school as the local schools "need to be better." I will leave the reader to imagine which person I voted for.

Our "I voted early" stickers had something that looked a little like a red, white, and blue slice of pizza with a bite out of it. It took me a moment to realize it was shape of Wake County. Our sticker from 2 years ago had the easily recognizable shape of North Carolina in red, white, and blue. I don't know why they changed it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:52 PM on October 21, 2016 [18 favorites]


So...War is Peace?
posted by kirkaracha at 1:53 PM on October 21, 2016


It's funny though that no one thinks HRC and the Dems calling him on this could be them trolling Putin and the Right back. Nah, it's clearly Hillary warmongering again.

Sometimes it can be both. "Nope, no weapons over there!"
posted by Apocryphon at 1:53 PM on October 21, 2016


It's funny though that no one thinks HRC and the Dems calling him on this could be them trolling Putin and the Right back. Nah, it's clearly Hillary warmongering again.

Yeah, I think HRC tying Trump to Putin makes Putin look ridiculous. It makes me picture Putin, Trump, and Assange having a little Twitter support group where they complain about how that lady in the pantsuit was mean to them.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:55 PM on October 21, 2016 [30 favorites]


So...War is Peace?

I guess. The other option is giving Putin Czechoslovakia Ukraine and cross our fingers he stops there and doesn't go after Poland.
posted by Talez at 1:56 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


As per the idealists, it is good and right for the American sphere of influence to be as wide as possible, since America is on the side of justice and freedom and democracy.
To this I would add romanticism. The US would not exist without the support of a foreign government during our rebellion against King George III. I think it's tough for romantics to watch the Peshmerga, for example, flounder in their efforts to resist authoritarianism.
posted by xyzzy at 1:57 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I think HRC tying Trump to Putin makes Putin look ridiculous.

I agree, though while Trump can't handle the idea of being thought ridiculous, Putin doesn't mind at all if you dismiss him, if it will allow him to get close enough to slide a blade between your ribs.
posted by Mooski at 1:58 PM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


I want video of Obama practicing variations of his "c'mon" in front of a mirror like playing scales until he gets it just right.

It ought to be a ringtone. C'mon, Apple.
posted by kingless at 1:58 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's bromance with Putin was why I never worried that he might drop nukes on anybody who could nuke us back... he'd just nuke half the Middle East and take all their radioactive oil.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:59 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hey, Special Agent Dale Cooper?...not everyone reads every thread and there doesn't need to be concensus on any issue.

The consensus part was jokey, but come on. People should at least try to be informed about something before posting.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 2:00 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


It seems pretty clear - even from this discussion - that there isn't much intellectual space for any position that's not "Russia is evil, we should fight them in Syria, on the beaches, etc"
Is anyone here taking that position? I sure as hell am not.
I guess. The other option is giving Putin Czechoslovakia Ukraine and cross our fingers he stops there and doesn't go after Poland.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 2:01 PM on October 21, 2016


I hate you a little for the visual that created. Just saying.

i don't expect anyone to care but i'm tired of this kind of 'ew gross the overweight man has sex' kind of thing
posted by beerperson at 2:03 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait, wait - we don't have to read all of every thread?!?

[To quidnunc:] You lied to me!
*frying pan*
posted by petebest at 2:04 PM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


I guess. The other option is giving Putin Czechoslovakia Ukraine and cross our fingers he stops there and doesn't go after Poland.

hitler wasn't capable of launching a literal holocaust with a button push

putin is

and as far as syria is concerned, we do not want to be involved in what will probably turn out to be the ultra violent attempt of the turks to re-establish the ottoman empire while the saudis try to re-establish one damned caliphate or another and russia and iran play for their own interests

there's nothing there but insanity for us
posted by pyramid termite at 2:08 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I voted today. I picked my pen up and set it back down again a couple of times and then had to wipe the tears out of my eyes before I could fill in the oval; it was powerful moment.
posted by danielleh at 4:36 PM on October 21

My husband told me it was a very surreal moment for him. After all the memes and the rallies and the tweets and the debates and the news articles...there was the name, Donald J. Trump in black and white on an official ballot.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:09 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


petebest did enough work transcribing the debates. if ANYBODY deserves to take Thread Breaks...
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:09 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


My husband told me it was a very surreal moment for him. After all the memes and the rallies and the tweets and the debates and the news articles...there was the name, Donald J. Trump in black and white on an official ballot.

My ballot came this week and the first thing I did was open it up and confirm, yep, this is all really happening.
posted by zachlipton at 2:11 PM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


The consensus part was jokey, but come on. People should at least try to be informed about something before posting.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper


There's a whole Metatalk thread you should probably read. And no, no one is required to know what you think they should to participate here.
posted by agregoli at 2:13 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump’s Ultimate Humiliation
It’s tempting to say that Donald Trump’s speech at the Al Smith Dinner on Thursday night went over like a fart in church. This was an annual fundraiser for Catholic charities, after all, hosted in Manhattan by the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Timothy Dolan. But passing gas in the house of God doesn’t do justice to how shameful and embarrassing the Republican nominee was at the dais at the Waldorf Astoria, turning what’s traditionally a forum for White House hopefuls to tell lighthearted jokes into a pulpit for cruel remarks about the Democratic nominee, who was seated mere feet away.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:13 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


*frying pan*

I'm not sure what's happening but I can't stop laughing at this
posted by zutalors! at 2:14 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]




Based on Hillary's statement in the debates, I thought it sounded like her plan was to form a diplomatic coalition that would put pressure on Russia to agree to no-fly zones over some of the civilian areas that they've been bombing the shit out of. She was cagey about what she would do in the event that the no-fly zone was violated, but I got the impression that she'd really prefer to respond to that violation by implementing economic sanctions (backed by the same coalition) against Russia rather than by starting a shooting war.

She seems to think that if she can get enough international backing, she can make Putin see that it's in his interest to play ball in Syria. If that's really her strategy, then I think I can get behind it. Something must be done to stop the killing, and getting Russia to abandon Assad and stop attacking civilians is a critical step in untangling this mess. Right now we lack the leverage to do that, but if Hillary thinks she can put something together then I don't know what else is more likely to work.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:18 PM on October 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


> The vast majority of textbooks -- which are a useful, if, only approximate, proxy for what was being taught -- from the late 19th century through the 1960s broadly taught Reconstruction as a horrible oppression imposed punitively on the South by the Republican party

Yup, that's what I was taught. Took me years to get a decent reeducation.

> (I'm always elated to get A REAL FACT CHECK, which is just sad.

You should see the expressions of gratitude from the authors I edit when they discover I check facts and verify quotes; publishers don't pay editors to do that, and I only do it because I can't stand not to.

> We're inclined to discount negative stories about Russia's actions in the world because we've had to listen to so much bullshit on that front for so long.

> Recall that the Cold War propagandizing against the USSR reached even into textbooks, classrooms, and official references. That kind of damage to the public trust is not easy to undo.

I... don't really understand this line of thought. The Cold War propagandizing against the USSR ended in 1991 with the country itself (actually, it was fading for several years before that, as people realized Gorbachev was serious and there wasn't going to be any WWIII or even much of a Cold War). During the '90s the prevailing attitude towards Russia (n.b.: a different country! not the Soviet Union!) was a mix of enthusiasm (they're going capitalist!), pity (look at the poor fuckers, they can't do capitalism right!), and growing indifference (welp, don't have to worry about them any more, on to the next enemy!). People were bothered, in a remote sort of way, by the Chechen Wars, but it was pretty much the "quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing" kind of bother. It wasn't until Putin started flexing his muscles in a serious way that he started to be seen as a real threat; not even the proxy invasion of Georgia made much of a dent here—it took the occupation of Crimea and eastern Ukraine to get people hot and bothered, and that's only been a few years. So I really don't think there's much of a connection; for old hacks from gray-lady newspapers, sure, but I'll bet half the members of MetaFilter aren't old enough to remember the Cold War.

Also, Putin is one of the worst thugs currently running a major country, and it would be ridiculous to deflect criticism with "but look at the bullshit we spouted during the Cold War!"
posted by languagehat at 2:21 PM on October 21, 2016 [23 favorites]


I think its important to differentiate between state and national (in the ethnic sense) interest. Putin's Russia and Trump's America are motivated by the latter. The Russian state is confined by borders which are much smaller than the Russian nation (thanks to Imperialism and Soviet Colonialism). Trump's (White Nationalist) America by contrast is much smaller than the borders of the United States.

This is why their current political aspirations seem so complimentary. Trump wants to abandon commitments by the United States which benefit other nations, while Putin wants to reincorporate Russia's colonies into the whole. As Trump wants to recede, Putin wants to advance.

Russia is not the only revanchist nation at the moment, certainly China, Hungary, Poland, England, and Wales join it. Turkey sees Ottoman glory in Syria. I think we are entering a very dangerous period in history, and the withdrawal of the United States from the world stage is not the solution. I am confident that voting for Hillary will ensure that the US stays engaged where it needs to be.
posted by ethansr at 2:24 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


My husband told me it was a very surreal moment for him. After all the memes and the rallies and the tweets and the debates and the news articles...there was the name, Donald J. Trump in black and white on an official ballot.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:09 PM on October 21

TBH, I didn't realize until I saw your post that I didn't even look for Trump's name on the ballot. I did scan way down the field to find Evan McMullin and saw that his running mate was listed as Nathan Johnson. Remembering someone here making a McMufFinn joke, I had to look it up. In order to get his name on the ballot ahead of deadlines in many states, McMullin just used the name of a friend for his running mate. He didn't officially name Mindy Finn until the 6th of this month.
posted by danielleh at 2:25 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was not disgusted by the visual of fat old man having sex (I see that Everytime I have sex). It was the image of Trump's "sexy" talk and his o-face.

I believe he always carries a little mirror in case of unexpected sexy times he can be looking at himself.
posted by Dr. Curare at 2:26 PM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


People should at least try to be informed about something before posting.

On the contrary, the right to opine while unimformed is fundamental to the Metafilter Charter.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:38 PM on October 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


Also, Putin is one of the worst thugs currently running a major country, and it would be ridiculous to deflect criticism with "but look at the bullshit we spouted during the Cold War!"
I grew up during the Cold War and certainly had my fears of the USSR and my imminent demise because nuclear winter, and your description of "YAY DEMOCRACYCAPITALISM! lolcapitalism? ohaiPutin" really resonated with me.
posted by xyzzy at 2:42 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


On the contrary, the right to opine while unimformed is fundamental to the Metafilter Charter United States.

FTFY.
posted by Talez at 2:44 PM on October 21, 2016


Hey, everybody! Look over here; it's a new thread!
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:45 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Priests Should Have Given Trump His Last Rites Last Night. This thing is done.

Do remember that Trump has lots of supporters, even now. Over on the right-wing Free Republic message board, they had a thread on the dinner with 800+ comments. These people did not see and hear what we saw and heard. Here's a selection of those comments ("-" denotes an exact quote).


Preamble

- Note the flower arrangement in front of Hillary. I'll bet it was planned, so people can't see her hands shaking and that she had to have her food cut up in the kitchen.

- She looks so haggard. The woman is not well.

- [On Hillary's dress] Rita Hayworth called. She wants her bathrobe back.


Trump takes the podium

- Donald is killing it! Very funny!

- Wow, he's going there. The crowd doesn't like it, but he's plowing on. The man has balls!

- He's telling the truth! They broke the mold with this man!

- LOL, Trump started out playing their game and then turned into the honey badger!

- Who cares if those assholes are booing? Trump is a modern day Braveheart. Take no prisoners!


Hillary takes the podium

- Wow, Hitlery can barely get out of her seat

- Oh, the Beast is actually wearing a dress

- Why the eff did that boy-diddling cardinal invite a baby-killer?

- The witch is not funny. I hate her.

- What's she saying? I've got her on mute.

- Does she get points from the feminazis for making Bill stay home?

- I'll bet they've got a bed ready for her out in her Medi-van

- Even dressed up she is an ugly hag

- Of course they like her, that room is full of liberals


The Wrap Up

- Trump’s roast tonight propelled him to the presidency.

- Hillary was awful. She is a sick lying criminal b[****] and she is going to jail.


All of which is to point out that Trump's last rites won't come until the evening of Nov 8, and we all still have work to do between now and then.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 2:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [19 favorites]


"-" denotes an exact quote

some "-"s were lost in the ether, it seems.
posted by Namlit at 2:55 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump’s roast

Mmmmm ... Trump roast.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:56 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think we are entering a very dangerous period in history, and the withdrawal of the United States from the world stage is not the solution

i don't think that's a solution either, but we need to understand that our powers have limits which are much tighter than they were and that certain situations are totally screwed up, such as syria

(we might consider why our support of saudi arabia in yemen makes us any different morally than russia in syria)

i think the danger here isn't that hillary's a war hawk, but that she's a natural optimist who thinks there's bound to be some kind of solution to what's going on in the middle east
posted by pyramid termite at 2:56 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


look re: the russian stuff can we all just agree that Ronald Reagan single-handedly ended the Cold War, possibly by firing air traffic controllers
posted by beerperson at 2:58 PM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


look re: the russian stuff can we all just agree that Ronald Reagan single-handedly ended the Cold War, possibly by firing air traffic controllers

Let's not mince words. By Trump standards he begged in front of Brandenburg Gate.
posted by Talez at 2:59 PM on October 21, 2016


"mr gorbachev - we need a bigger wall!! and you need to pay for it!!"
posted by pyramid termite at 3:05 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


> HILLARY, YOU'RE HIRED!

No. After midnight on November 8 Trump will disappear from our consciousness, never to be thought of again.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:35 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


It will shock you how much it never happened.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:44 PM on October 21, 2016 [20 favorites]


This just in: Clinton doesn't write her own songs, either.

Luckily, her Grammy is for spoken word.

[real]
posted by ckape at 3:49 PM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


- What's she saying? I've got her on mute.

this says way more than it should
posted by philip-random at 3:56 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


i don't expect anyone to care but i'm tired of this kind of 'ew gross the overweight man has sex' kind of thing

In all honesty, weight had nothing to do with how vile the image was. I mean, seriously... Trump?
posted by Mooski at 4:02 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Are we still doing this? Because I thought I was pretty clear last thread when we discussed this that 1. There's actual evidence and consensus far beyond the word of some three letter agencies, and 2. Just because you don't understand doesn't mean there's not evidence.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper


eponysterical?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:38 PM on October 21, 2016


No. After midnight on November 8 Trump will disappear from our consciousness, never to be thought of again.

You are Mike Pence and I claim my five pounds!
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:42 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


> The Russian state is confined by borders which are much smaller than the Russian nation

Huh? Are you perhaps confusing "Russian" with "Soviet"? The Russian borders are actually much larger than the Russian nation; take a look at an ethnic map sometime. Putin's revanchism has nothing to do with "the Russian nation" (whatever that is—I have two books by Geoffrey Hosking on that topic which are well worth reading); it's about establishing his credentials as the Great Leader of a Great People. (You know who else...?)
posted by languagehat at 5:05 PM on October 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


There are significant populations of Russians in bordering states (Ukraine, particularly the southeast), etc., though, no - partly because of Soviet-era policies of Russification in those areas and partly because borders weren't so important before say WWI? I defer to you as you're much more knowledgeable about the region than I, to be clear, but I did think that there were significant Russian minorities in some of these areas (much as there were lots of Germans in the Sudetenland....)
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:10 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]






> There are significant populations of Russians in bordering states (Ukraine, particularly the southeast), etc., though

No, you're right, I shouldn't have been so black-and-white about it—I guess I'm allergic to any hint that maybe they have a right to "take back" "their" old lands. The Sudetenland is a good comparison. In conclusion: nations are a land of contrasts!
posted by languagehat at 5:39 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm sorely tempted to paste the text of the Treaty of Westphalia as a final coda to this thread--
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:00 PM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Just the parts about the Landgravine of Hesse, those are the best bits.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:14 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Re-posting NEW THREAD link for recent activity.

(Originally spelled that Newt Hread. Sounds just like the sort of thing Newt would do.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:29 PM on October 21, 2016


OK but would it be a problem if I hung out here alone for a while? Guys?

::lets out deep breath::

...

La la la...

...

Fine I'm going over there
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 7:45 PM on October 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm not going to argue this sarcastic point other than to say that particular statement was a turning point for many, many AIDS/HIV activists, and it was important that many of us thought it came from her own voice.

I've been thinking about this comment, and my response upthread. Something I left out is that it's the activists and not the politicians who have the voice, the power, the passion and the ownership of the issue, and are always going to be more authentic. The politician, whose speeches I used to write, is the tool, the vehicle, the channel. But they almost never own the issue. And politicians are never able to do anything truly meaningful without the support of the community or the constituency.

But to get things done sometimes means exercising politics. That's where politicians come in handy. But it's never about one person.
posted by My Dad at 9:53 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


oops reposting in new thread for discussion
posted by constantinescharity at 12:05 PM on October 23, 2016


As much as I would like to pretend that I've read the whole thread, watching the whole debate was enough for me. Trump was just laughable. Beyond contempt. Hillary was so inspiring. I had tears a few times. She is what a president looks like. On that matter, and this is pernickety, it should be "Madam President" not "Madame President". If you're nasty.
posted by Lleyam at 5:50 PM on October 27, 2016


BREAKING: 6th Circuit issues stay of Ohio voter intimidation case TRO, halting enforcement of order that Trump campaign had opposed.

No rationale at all. The 6th Cir is dominated by Republican judges.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:04 AM on November 6, 2016


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